from J. Golvin, G. Shrock and M. Nierenstein, of Cape Town, whose applications for certificates of naturalisation have been refused for relief.

from H. S. Wood, who, in 1866, was granted a quitrent farm by Adam Kok, which during his absence in 1875, was transferred by the Government to J. E. Hancock, for relief.

That the House at its rising to-day adjourn until to-morrow (Saturday) at half-past ten o’clock a.m., Government business to have precedence, and that Mr. Speaker or the Chairman of Committees, as the case may be, do suspend business to-morrow at a quarter to one o’clock p.m. until two o’clock p.m.

was understood to ask the Minister whether it was the intention to close down business on Saturday afternoon.

Does the hon. member want us to go on till Sunday morning. (Laughter.) Continuing, he said the idea of the Government was to prorogue on Tuesday, and if they could sit on the following day until they finished the Estimates that would give, another place two days, a fair period, for the consideration of the Estimates.

was understood to ask whether it was the intention to rise at 6 o’clock on the following day.

I can’t say. The Government is anxious to finish the Estimates to-morrow. If we can finish by six o’clock, the Government won’t take the House any further, but if hon. members wish further discussion on all the Estimates, including the Railway and Loan Estimates, we shall have to sit on in the evening.

The motion was agreed to.

moved the second reading of the Borrowing Powers and General Loans Act Amendment Bill. He said the object of the Bill was threefold. It was to avoid the necessity of having two Bills—an Appropriation Bill and a Loan Bill. Hon. members would see that under clause (1) it would be necessary in future to have only one Bill. When the Loan Appropriation was passed Government was automatically given authority to borrow money up to that amount for the financial year. Under clause (3) power was taken to borrow money by the issue of debentures. Under the General Loans Act passed some years ago authority was given to the Government only to raise money by way of the issue of consolidated stock or local stock. The Minister was understood to say that sometimes money could be more economically raised on periods between those laid down, and such an issue was made by way of debentures. In the third instance they were advised, when the last loan was raised, that the market was most favourable to the issue of debentures, and that no stock or short-dated bills would secure them such terms as debentures. Technically the Act of 1911 did not give the Government that power.

said that this was a Bill to increase the borrowing powers of the Government for the purpose of carrying out certain work set out in detail in the Loan Estimates. He should like to take the opportunity of showing the House where a policy of this kind was going to land the country. The Minister of Finance, in the course, of his Budget statement, said there was no more important State department than that dealing with finance, and he (Mr. Jagger) cordially agreed with him then, and cordially agreed with him now. About March the 24th last he (Mr. Jagger) pointed out the position the Government was getting into in regard to borrowing powers, and suggested that the time had arrived for them to go slowly. He (Mr. Jagger) understood it was the intention of the Minister to do so, and the Minister said they would find very little loan expenditure except what was absolutely necessary. He (Mr. Jagger) could not see in these Estimates, covered by this Loan Bill, any signs of “going slow.” They had spent on loan account since Union one and a half millions in 1910-11, £3,293,000 in 1911-12, £3,916,000 in 1912-13, and last year, up to March 31, 1914, the sum of £5,016,000. Now the Government came forward with proposals which entailed the expenditure of no less than £6,200,000, and they were asking for borrowing powers to cover this money. He would like to ask the House in these circumstances whether there were any signs of “slowing down. ” They were now asking for an amount far in excess of any amount they had spent in one year since Union. It appeared to him that the Treasury went on gaily asking for borrowing powers regardless of the financial position of the country, the position of the money market, and the price the Government had to pay for this money. The credit of the country was steadily getting worse. They had borrowed three times in the open market since Union, an amount of about £4,000,000 on each occasion. The money had cost them, reckoning expenses, etc., £4 2s. 4d. per cent, on the first occasion, £4 3s. 4d. per cent, on the second occasion, and the recent loan worked out, with redemption, expenses, and discount, at £4 13s. 6d. per cent. The Minister had just said that he could not borrow in any other form than suggested. He (Mr. Jagger) quite agreed with him. The Government had come down to borrowing money in the way a spendthrift would borrow.

Canada the other day had borrowed five million at £4 2s. 9d., while South Africa had, to pay £4 13s. 6d. The Minister admitted that he had to borrow on short terms, ten years’ debentures. That was the last resort of the spendthrift. It was no wonder that it, pleased the London financiers, and that they called it the pick of the bunch. Of course it was the pick of the bunch. Just at that time when they were reduced to their last resort, the Government came forward with large schemes of loan expenditure. There was the Railways and Harbours Departments asking for £4,982,000. Works which had been sanctioned in previous sessions had not been carried out. If the House sanctioned the proposals it meant that the railway would have power to carry out works amounting to £13,035,000. In previous years the Railway Department had never spent out of loan funds more than three million pounds. Therefore he said, if the House sanctioned it, it meant that the railways had authority to carry out works aggregating. 13 millions of money, although they had never spent in one year more than three millions. It would therefore take them four years to execute those works. They had sanctioned for railways irrespective of the works asked for now £20,822,000, and they had carried out works amounting to only £12,780,000. That left £8,000,000 for railways and harbours which had not yet been, estimated. The Government brought forward those large schemes which they could not carry out. The Railway Department last year had brought forward a programme involving five million pounds. What sense or reason was there for the Government bringing forward a programme at all? There they had works sanctioned by the House and not carried out by the department, and at the same time it was admitted that they had had to tell the various Administrators that they could not, give them me necessary money to erect schools. Yet they were told of the extreme difficulty they, had in raising money. The lenders in London knew just as well the commitments of his hon. friend as anybody else in the House, and they squeezed the Union accordingly. Let them take the huge works they were asked to sanction this year.

Surely this is not before us now.

I am just showing how the borrowing powers of my hon. friend are going to land us in difficulty. Continuing, he said they had items of 1½ millions, £109,000, and £108,000 down in connection with ports and harbours. They had no report in connection with those works, but they were asked to sanction them. The Cape Town Docks Jetty was mentioned in the Brown-book on page 16, the cost being £109,000. What he complained of was that the House had had no time or opportunity of carefully examining those works for which they were asking borrowing powers.

Is it our fault?

said the Opposition had warned the Minister that he would have difficulty in getting through the Estimates. He had taken advantage of that opportunity of putting a few facts before the House in connection with the matter. The old Cape Parliament had been accorded an opportunity of examining those propositions; they were brought before a Select Committee and evidence was taken. Now nothing of the sort was done.

They were not doing their duty in voting those large sums away without adequate inquiry. With regard to public works, there had been laid before that House a programme involving £3,219,000. That entailed a further expenditure of £2,237,000. That was to be done without any inquiry in any shape or form. The Public Works Department seemed to be adopting the same attitude as the Railway Department with regard to the large programmes they could not carry out. If those Estimates were sanctioned and the borrowing powers given, it meant that the total commitments for loan expenditure amounted to £18,492,000. Against that, the Minister on the 31st March had only loan funds and money to come in amounting to £2,974,000, the total being £3,302,000. The figures he (Mr. Jagger) had given the other day were up to 31st May. The figures he gave now were up to March 31. Against those commitments of £18,492,000 there was only money to come in amounting to £3,302,000. To carry out that work, of course, they had to go on borrowing. It was a policy of reckless finance. Surely some regard should be had to the safety of the money borrowed. That policy could not be too strongly condemned—it meant a policy of piling up commitments year after year. The market was against them and money was dear. There was no way of getting money more cheaply. So far as he could see there was no prospect in the near future of any cheapness so far as money was concerned.

Under those circumstances what would be the result? They were simply putting themselves into the hands of the moneylenders who dictated the terms on which they could borrow. The lenders had already told the Minister that they would not lend him money on ordinary stock—they must go the most extravagant way, that of borrowing money on short-dated debentures. At the commencement of Union their debt stood at 3½ per cent. Now it was £4 15s. 6d. per cent. That was in some degree the result of the policy of the Treasury. The market had got harder and dearer, but he had shown what a contrast there was when they compared their position with that of Canada. The last Canadian loan had cost Canada £4 2s. 9d per cent., while South Africa paid £4 13s. 6d. He would point out that they were doing that in the face of a falling revenue. Let them take the return of the Railway Department—there was a fall of £46,000 as compared with the receipts for last year. The ordinary revenue was in much the same position, and there was every indication of a falling-off in the ordinary revenue of the country. They had only two months’ figures up to the end of May, but for those two months the Customs just about balanced. There was a decrease in the postal and telegraph receipts and a decrease also in the ordinary receipts, so that there was every prospect that they were in for a period of depressed trade. In the face of that the Government brought forward a huge vote on public works which they said must be sanctioned by the House to be carried out.

said he wished to make a few remarks about the raising of these loans. The Minister of Finance had said that these short-dated debentures had been raised on a most economical basis. He (Mr. Merriman) wished to dispossess the mind of his hon. friend of this idea, and the sooner it was done the better it would be for the finances of the Union. These wretched debentures which had been renewed for the fourth time had cost the country many thousands of pounds. They had just renewed them again, like a spendthrift, always at a higher rate of interest. The Colony began borrowing money on short date debentures in the hope that a good time was coming, and that they would then be able to pay them back by raising a loan at a shorter rate of interest. The fact was that they were going on renewing these debentures at a worse discount than ever. The whole loan, he found, worked out at the rate of £4 13s 6d. per cent. Was that satisfactory? he asked.

And yet his hon. friend the Minister of Finance got up and told them in that House that this was the most economical method of borrowing. Why did not the Minister of Finance go on the ordinary common sense lines about it, redeeming his loan by borrowing on the 10—40 basis. For years they had ‘been getting more and more into the hands of the London underwriters, and their terms were getting more onerous every day. A frugal man would begin to contract his borrowing requirements in order to get himself out of difficulties, and this course he would recommend to his hon. friend the Minister of Finance. He could liken the position no better than that these short-dated debentures were like a dead whale floating about in the sea with swarms of sharks round it. (Laughter.) He would ask the Minister if it was Hot time to adopt the wise course of going slowly. They had been told that this was what they were doing. But if that were so, then they might be glad indeed that they were not going fast.

said he wanted to refer to a clause in the Bill which looked exceedingly innocent, but which was going to prove a departure from the principle adopted by that House. In 1912 they passed a law laying down the position on which loans should be issued. At that time he had the honour of being in the Treasury. The Government had made up their minds that it was necessary there should be strict Parliamentary control over borrowings. They had seen how the Parliament of the Cape of Good Hope had sanctioned loans to be raised for the carrying out of specific works, but instead of the money being devoted to the purpose for which it was raised it was spent in other directions. The Union Government decided that such a state of affairs could not be tolerated any longer. The hon. member then went on to quote from Hansard of 1912 confirming the statements he had just made. Continuing, he said Parliament, by endorsing this policy laid down that where a particular work had been sanctioned and a loan raised for the purpose, that it should be the duty of the Government to come to that House showing how much of the money had been spent upon that work. It was felt that this would lead to stricter financial control and a closer scrutiny of the work done. He would now ask his right hon. friend for what reason he was departing from this policy?

It is no departure. Continuing, the hon. member said that personally he thought this discussion was out of place. He did not see how they were going to develop any young country unless they could get capital into it. This Bill came before the Public Accounts Committee, and his hon. friend had stated that they examined it very carefully and they put the very point that he had put as to whether this constituted a departure from the existing system. The conclusion they came to was that it was not a departure.

said that his hon. friend (Mr. Hull) would see that the point which he gained in 1911 was the point which was maintained in this Bill. He did not desire to enter into a discussion on Harbour Works and similar undertakings. The condition of affairs with regard to loans was world-wide, and something for which he did not see why the Government should be blamed.

The motion was agreed to and the Bill was read a second time.

said it seemed to him that this clause was not so definite in regard to Appropriation Acts as the clause in the previous Bill.

said his hon. friend would see, if he read the clause to the end, that the point was carefully safeguarded.

said he must say a word with regard to the aspersions which had been thrown on the Colony he belonged to. (A laugh.) Everything was done under the authority of law. The system they adopted in the Cape in those days was a perfectly well understood thing, and, on the whole, safer than the present plan. It was now proposed to do exactly the same thing under this Bill. They were going to authorise this year so many works, and they were going to appropriate so much. They were going to appropriate, say, five million pounds. They were going to borrow that in a lump, and they were going to spend it just where they liked. That was exactly what they used to do in the Cape; they were following good old Cape lines. He thought the Public Accounts Committee had done good work in regard to this Bill. The proposal, as placed before them originally, was that the Government were to be authorised to borrow five millions loosely. The committee preserved them from that, and struck out the clause.

said he was sorry to disagree with the right hon. gentleman, but he sincerely hoped they would not go back to old Cape lines. He thought one thing the hon. member for Barberton had done was to put these matters on a better footing. Personally, he did not think there was any weakening of the control of Parliament under this clause.

said that he could not understand what the object of clause (1) was, if it was as the hon. member had stated. If the clause was not to safeguard what Parliament had sanctioned in 1911, what was its object?

said that perhaps the hon. member for Barberton (Mr. Hull) would see that, if they did as he suggested, that would be going back to the old Cape system, because the work might extend for many years. That was what that Bill intended to avoid—not that they should have borrowing powers for the whole work, but only for the money required for the year.

Clause (1) was agreed to.

The Bill was reported without amendments.

moved, if there was no objection, that the Bill be read a third time.

There was no objection, and the motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a third time accordingly.

in moving the second reading of the Public Service and Pensions Amendment Bill, said that the Government was introducing the Bill at that late stage of the session somewhat reluctantly. The Bill was intended to define the functions of the Public Service Commission to regulate the relations between the Commission and the Government and to give some relief to a large number of members of the public service. It would be within the recollection of hon. members that the Public Service Commission had issued its second annual report, within the first six weeks of the session, and that report made special reference to a serious-difference of opinion which had taken place between the Commissioners and the Government regarding the functions of that body, and the report had, on the motion of the hon. member for East London (Col. Crewe) been referred to a Select Committee, which had come to a unanimous decision embodied in a report laid on the Table of the House a few weeks ago. The principal point on which there was difference of opinion between the Commission and the Government was with regard to the Commission’s powers to make recommendations with reference to the creation of new posts within the public service and of fixing salaries. The Commission contended that it had power, under the Public Service Act of 1912, to deal with these matters, and although the creation of new posts was not specifically referred to in the Act the Commission considered, by inference, that it had these powers, and referred to certain sections of the Act. Proceeding, the Minister said that the matter was dealt with very fully by the report of the Commission and a large number of cases had been cited by it; where the Commission alleged that its authority had been disregarded by Government. These cases had also been investigated by the Select Committee. The principal point to which the Committee had directed their attention was that acute question of the functions of the Commission. The Government admitted that with regard to the creation of new posts, which involved reorganisation or readjustment the Commission had the right to make recommendations, but not those necessary by the normal expansion of departments. The Commission had not drawn attention to the fact that legal opinion had been obtained by the Government supporting the Government’s views, and some misapprehensions had arisen in the minds of the committee when they read the report of the Commission for the first time, but after considering the legal opinion which had been obtained by the Government it was clear that the Government had acted perfectly legally in regard to all these appointments which had been made, with one exception, which he would refer to later. The outcome of the recommendations of the Select Committee was that legislation should be passed making it quite clear that the Public Service Commission should have no concern with regard to the necessity of creating new posts under normal expansion or caused by reorganisation or by readjustment, nor should it be concerned with the question of fixing salaries. The Commission would retain its power with regard to the personnel of the service. With regard to the actual administration of the various departments of State, and with regard to the Treasury control, it was the unanimous opinion of the committee that from these matters the Commission should be altogether excluded. The reason was that the financial control and administration of the departments were essentially matters for the Government, and Government being responsible to Parliament for the efficient administration of the public service and for the financial control and exercise of its economy in that administration, should not have to defer to the advice or recommendations of any outside body which was not responsible to the Government, and was, in effect, an independent body, responsible only to that House. The matter was somewhat fully-dealt with in the report of the Select Committee.

Continuing, he said the point was whether or not the Government had broken the law and flouted the Commission with regard to appointments, and the committee reported, “There is therefore no good ground for any charge against Government departments of having broken the law in acting without the recommendations of the Commission in regard to the creation of new posts consequent on normal expansion and not involving reorganisation and readjustment.” The committee went on to say, “While fully appreciating the value to the Government of criticism and advice, such as the Commission could give on the proposals of heads of departments, your committee is nevertheless of opinion that the best safeguard of economical administration is to be found in a strong and active Treasury control. Such control is exercised, in the first place, in the preparation of the estimates for submission to Parliament, but it should also be in force continuously throughout the year, and in particular the departments should be required to obtain Treasury sanction for the creation of new posts and for any increase of existing salaries or any proposal for expenditure not specifically provided in the vote.” It was argued on behalf of the Commission that the Treasury ought to confine itself to looking at the matter from the financial point of view, and that it should he necessary for the head of a department to satisfy the Commission as to the necessity for any new staff, and that the Treasury should accept the opinion of the Commission with regard to that point, and confine itself to finding or declining to find the money The committee went on to say, “Your committee considers that in any questions of increase of departmental staff or salaries these two aspects cannot properly be separated, i.e., that the question whether the Government can or will provide the necessary funds cannot properly be separated from the question whether the work of the department is such as really to justify the increase asked for. Effective Treasury control requires that the Treasury, as the department of the Minister directly responsible to Parliament for the financial administration of the country, must be in a position to satisfy itself on both these points before such an increase is sanctioned, and no expression of opinion by a body such as the Commission can be accepted as relieving the Treasury from this responsibility.”

Then the report went on to say: “Even if the Commission were the proper body to exercise that control of the departmental expenditure which is necessary to economical administration, the Act as it now stands does not give it the powers which it would require for the purpose. In the first place, its powers are limited to the administrative and clerical division of the Service and do not extend to the general division or to the defence, police and prison services, which account for a very large proportion of the Government’s administrative expenditure. Secondly, even in regard to the administrative and clerical division, it is not required, according to the opinion of the Law Advisers, to make recommendations in regard to increases arising out of normal expansion. It is this normal expansion, however, rather than the creation of new offices, or departments, which leads to the growth in public expenditure which is most difficult and most important to keep under control.” The committee finally said: “Your committee is of opinion that the Act should be amended either in the direction of extending the functions of the Commission, so as to give it the powers of investigation and recommendation in regard to all the increases of staff or salary throughout the whole service, or in the direction of leaving these powers with the Treasury, where they now are, and withdrawing from the Commission its power of making recommendations as to whether such increases should or should not be sanctioned. It is with reluctance that your committee recommends an alteration in an Act such as the Public Service and Pensions Act which has so recently become law, but, for the reasons already given, it has no hesitation in recommending the second of these two alternatives.”

Continuing, the Minister went on to say that there was no intention to slight the valuable services rendered to the public service and the country by the members of the Public Service Commission, but it was necessary for the committee to go into this matter in order to make recommendations and enable the Government to decide what legislation should be proposed especially as the Commission itself in its report asked that the matter should be definitely decided in the public interest. The Government had adopted these recommendations, and now asked the House to pass the Bill to give effect to them. The powers of the Commission will be reduced, and no doubt they will not like the restrictions of their powers, but it is necessary to do so. With regard to the question of Treasury control, he did not think it was necessary for him to say much more. He referred to Commissions that had sat in this country, and three that had sat in Great Britain, and all had taken one line, and that was in favour of strengthening the Treasury control. This was the principal point in the Bill. They seeked to remove under the Bill from the purview of the Commission anything connected with administration of the service including the creation of new posts or the fixing of salaries. The next clause was that dealing with the promotion examination which was set for December, 1913. Objection was taken to the section of the Act on the ground that it applied to pre-Union officers, and it was represented that a distinct hardship existed, and in consequence the examination was not held. They provided in this Bill that pre-Union officers should be exempt from the examination, also any old Republican officials and those temporary officers who had been appointed to permanent posts. The examination would now take place in 1915. Then at present a Minister was not able to transfer an official without a recommendation from the Public Service Commission, but under this Bill it would be possible for a Minister to transfer an officer without such a recommendation.

The effect of the Bill would be to reduce the amount of correspondence between the Public Service Commission and the Government. It was intended to remove certain well-founded grievances which the pre-Union officers had with regard to salaries. The re-organisation scheme which was introduced some time ago had the effect of retarding the promotion of officers. In the Act of 1912 barriers were laid down with regard to maximum salaries. The result had been stagnation; men had been kept at the barriers for years, and there had been discontent. The Union scale was not as generous as the scales which existed before, and that had been a source of complaint from pre-Union officers. The operation of the regulations affecting local allowances had caused a good deal of heart-burning. When an officer was transferred from the coast to the Free State or Transvaal, a local allowance was paid to him, but that local allowance did not increase with his salary. Any increase in salary went to the reduction of the local allowance, because the allowance was given on the salary in March, 1912, and any subsequent increase went in reduction of the allowance, and that was unsatisfactory. What they proposed to do was to introduce what were called relief scales for first and second grade clerical assistants who had had promotion for four and three years respectively.

Do this in committee.

said he did not want to labour the point. Most of the officers who would be affected were pre Union officers, who were drawing salaries in excess of the present Union maxima. Altogether, about 1,500 of those officers would be affected. The relief scale would not take automatic effect. Unless an officer was specially certified to be efficient and deserving promotion, he would not get the benefit of the relief scale. The local allowance would not be pensionable. The relief scale also applied to the men in the Post Office, who were on the scales laid down in the Public Service Act of 1912. Any additional advantage that might be secured by the general body of the executive branch would be the result of further investigation. It was the intention of the Government to give some corresponding relief to the men in the executive of the Post Office, just as it was to give relief to the general body of the Public Service but not necessarily on the same lines. At present the Bill was drafted so as to effect pre-Union officers and post Union officers alike. For the present it was better to deal with the pre-Union officers, and in committee an amendment would be moved to make the relief scale apply only to pre-Union officers. The Minister referred to other clauses of the Bill. Officers of the Free State prior to Union were entitled to pension rights without contributing to a pension fund. Under the Public Service Act, a clause was inserted compelling them to contribute 4 per cent, of their salaries to a pension fund. That matter had been investigated, and the Government had come to the conclusion that it was better and more just to allow those officers to remain in the same position they were in prior to Union. There were many officers in the service of the Cape and Natal Governments before Pension Laws were passed in the provinces who make no pension contribution at all. It was intended to allow pre-Union officers who wished to retire to get repayment of their contributions.

said the committee which had sat on the matter had taken care to go into all the matters in detail which affected the public service, and he was glad that the effect of that committee’s work had been to make the Minister admit that there was dissatisfaction in the service, although the Minister of Finance had said that there was no dissatisfaction. He thought the House would appreciate the work of the Select Committee, the result of which, he was sure, would be a greater amount of satisfaction in the service.

thought it was a pity that the introduction of the measure had been delayed till practically the last moment of the session, as it did not enable members to criticise the Bill as fully as they might wish to do. He believed the Bill would improve the conditions of those Civil Servants who had been so unfairly treated in respect of the matter of local allowances, and he hoped the Minister would go still further and extend that principle of relief to other branches of the service.

said the service before re-organisation was divided into two classes, the administrative men and the executive men. There was considerable misapprehension as to whether the salary amendments were going to apply to all branches of the service or only to the administrative men. He hoped the Minister would be able to, give a reply to the question.

thought the Bill was a step in the right direction, and he was prepared to support the second reading. He regretted the Minister had not adopted the policy of levelling up in regard to railway workmen as it would have removed certain grievances which at present existed. He would like to know if clause 10 was going to be made retrospective, because he knew of the case of a man who several years ago was unable to obtain a refund of his contribution through no fault of his own. He had also hoped to have seen the Minister do away with the discrimination made between men employed in towns and suburbs. He thought that men in the suburbs, where the cost of living was practically as high as that of towns, should be paid, irrespective of colour, the same rate of wages as that paid in towns.

pointed out that in clause 4, sub-section (1), promotion was acquired by examination, but in clause 7 there was a proviso making promotion dependent upon patronage. He hoped the Minister would explain the latter clause.

said that this was one of those Bills which he objected should pass at the expense of other measures, such as the Natives Pass Bill. This was another of those measures which had to be passed in order to indemnify the Government from certain illegal actions, and he hoped the House would not have any more Bills of a similar nature thrust upon it.

said that he could only repeat in regard to the Post Office employees what he had already said, that this Bill only dealt with those men who were on the salary scale laid down in the Public Service Act in 1912. Other men would be separately dealt with. In regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Springs as to whether the clause dealing with men who had made contributions to the Pensions Fund was retrospective, he might state that this clause would only apply to men who were at present in the service. With regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Roodepoort, he quite agreed that they wanted to eliminate favouritism, patronage, or anything of that sort. That was the object of the Public Service Act and Bill. The hon. member for Ficksburg said that he objected to this Bill, because it sought to legalise the illegal acts of the Government. Had he not given way to the somewhat impatient remarks on the other side, he would have satisfied the hon. member that there was no gross illegality about the matter at all. There were two sections of the Public Service Act which could be read in different ways. One appointment was made under a certain section of the law, while it was held by the legal advisers that another section of the law had not been observed. In committee, if the hon. member were anxious to know the details, he would supply them.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a second time and set down for committee stage to-morrow.

asked the Minister whether he would be prepared to agree to the deletion of the words in line 9 after “therefore,” so that it would not be necessary to bring this Bill before the House year after year? This would be an accumulated tax, and they might find another Government in power five years hence who might resolve that the tax should be paid.

intimated that he could not accept the suggested amendment.

moved to delete all the words after “Act ” in line 10 to the end of the clause. This, he said, would have the effect of repealing the Act, and no power would be given to Parliament in future to re-enact the tax.

said he hoped the hon. gentleman would accept this amendment, because, after all, the House had decided that this tax should not be imposed.

said that, by adopting the course suggested, the Minister would save the absorption of Parliamentary time session after session.

said it seemed to him that, if this Act were passed now, it would not be necessary to pass a similar Act next year.

For the sake of peace, I will agree to these words going out.

The amendment was agreed to.

The Bill was reported with an amendment, which was considered forthwith and agreed to.

moved that the Bill be now read a third time.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill was accordingly read a third time.

said that when progress was reported, vote No. 21, Defence, £1,394,300, was under consideration.

moved that the sub-heads in the vote be taken seriatim.

It has never been done before.

Oh, yes. All the big votes have been taken this session in classes. I am sure my hon. friend cannot say we have held up his Estimates.

The motion was negatived.

called for a division, which was taken, with the following result:

Ayes—23.

Andrews William Henry

Blaine, George

Boydell, Thomas

Creswell, Frederic Hugh Page

Crewe, Charles Preston

Duncan, Patrick

Fremantle, Henry Eardley Stephen

Haggar, Charles Henry

Henderson, James

Jagger, John William

King, John Gavin

MacNeillie James Campbell

Madeley, Walter Bayley

Maginess, Thomas

Sampson, Henry William

Serfontein, Nicolaas Wilhelmus

Smartt, Thomas William

Van der Riet, Frederick John Werndly

Walton, Edgar Harris

Watkins, Arnold Hirst

Wilcocks, Carl Theodorus Muller

Morris Alexander and Emile Nathan, tellers.

Noes—39.

Alberts, Johannes Joachim

Bezuidenhout, Willem Wouter Jacobus J.

Bosnian, Hendrik Johannes

Burton. Henry

Clayton, Walter Frederick

Cullinan, Thomas Major

Currey, Henry Latham

De Waal, Hendrik

De Wet, Nicolaas Jacobus

Du Toit, Gert Johan Wilhelm

Griffin, William Henry

Grobler, Evert Nicolaas

Krige, Christman Joel

Kuhn, Pieter Gysbert

Lemmer, Lodewyk Arnoldus Slabbert

Louw, George Albertyn

Malan, Francois Stephanus

Marais, Johannes Henoch

Marais, Pieter Gerhardus

Myburgh, Marthinus Wilhelmus

Neethhng, Andrew Murray

Oosthuisen, Ockert Almero

Orr, Thomas

Rademeyer, Jacobus Michael

Smuts, Jan Christiaan

Smuts, Tobias

Steyl, Johannes Petrus Gerhardus

Theron, Hendrik Schalk

Theron, Petrus Jacobus George

Van der Merwe, Johannes Adolph

Van der Walt, Jacobus

Van Eeden, Jacobus Willem

Van Heerden, Hercules Christian

Venter, Jan Abraham

Watermeyer. Egidius Benedictus

Watt, Thomas

Wiltshire, Henry

Geo. L. Steytler and F. R. Cronje, tellers.

The motion was therefore negatived.

Business was suspended at 12.45 p.m.

said there was a very large increase in the clerical staff. The police and field reserve pay and allowances had gone up from £10 to £7,500. and there was a new vote of £9,000 for detectives.

suggested the Minister should give an explanation of all the increases.

said there had been an increase of £10,000 in salaries, wages, and allowances under the heading of administration. But there was bound to be considerable expansion after the first year of the starting of the Defence Force. This year, however, he thought they had reached a normal basis.

Do you want all these clerks?

Yes; they are spread all over the Union. We are only now organising the police and field reserves. The idea is to utilise the S.A.M.R. for war service, and we must have a reserve of police to remain behind and do their duty. The regulars will not remain here indefinitely; their numbers are going down every year, and in a very short time we shall have only 2,500 S.A. Mounted Riflemen as our standing force., At the beginning of the organisation of the Defence Force we were working in the dark, but now we know where we are, our estimates will be much more close in a few years. The whole of Natal is policed by the S.A.M.R., who were given detectives like the police were.

drew attention to an anomaly in the treatment of burghers who had been called up during the recent disturbances. When the officers responsible commandeered, a horse only, payment was made for it according to the scale laid down; but when both owner and horse were commandeered, no payment whatever was made. That appeared to the hon. member to be both un-business-like and unsatisfactory. He went on to point cut that the Rustenburg and Waterberg districts were very widely scattered, in close adjacency to a large native population, and if the Minister could see his way to arm the people, at any rate those who lived in the border portions of those districts, it would be a great help.

said he wished to urge the Minister to see to it that all the burghers were supplied with rifles. Especially the poorer class felt the position keenly. There were ammunition stores in every dorp, but the fact was that these stores were all empty, and the sooner, the Minister gave the matter his attention the better pleased the people would be.

said he had received a letter from one of his constituents in relation to the Sunday training of the Defence Force. He (the speaker) was not a strict Sabbatarian, but he had sympathy with those who had views on this matter, and he hoped the Minister would not call out the Force on a Sunday unless it was absolutely necessary. He said the happiest time they spent during the siege at Kimberley was on Sundays, when there was a day of rest, and they had no need to dodge behind stone walls.

said it was a serious matter if the poor burghers were not provided with rifles. Especially in his division, where native territories were found on two sides, the position was very strongly felt. He also wished to refer to the question of the food given the burghers in the camps, and said that during the time the burghers were in camp at Middelburg the food was quite uneatable, at least so he was told, and he hoped the Minister would give the matter his serious attention. The fodder supplied for the horses was also very bad.

referred to the position of former members of the Natal Police, who had now become members of the police branch of the S.A.M.R. They had grievances, and he hoped the Minister would give these men the satisfaction of dealing with these grievances. He understood these men had been dismounted, but they still had to pay a forage allowance of 1s. per day, while others were losing 6d. per diem on lodging allowance and allowance for prosecuting-sergeants.

said that in the early part of the session they were given to understand by the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs that letters going through the Post Office during last January were not tapped. He (Mr. Creswell) held in his hand the envelope a letter addressed to “M. Lazarus, Box 208, Port Elizabeth.” Upon the envelope was endorsed the words, “Opened by sub-control officer in presence of Magistrate at 1 p.m., 16-1-14, P. H. Esser.” Did the Government in times like that regard the Post Office as an institution through which, by opening letters, they could get at the correspondence of the citizens of the country or could they feel secure that letters going through the Post Office would not be tampered with and that the contents would only be known to the writer and the person to whom a letter was addressed?

asked the Minister for information with regard to what appeared to be the high salaries paid to “some of these young captains.” He was told that if these gentlemen were in any other walk of life they would never earn half the money. He contrasted the position of teachers with these officers.

said he had been instructed by his constituents to direct the Minister’s attention to various matters. So far members of rifle clubs had been obliged to buy their own ammunition, which, especially where people were far from any central area, was a great hardship. He thought that the Government should supply these people with rifles and ammunition. During the strike a large number of people from his district had been called out, and in one instance 36 men between them had two useless and one good rifle. It was essential that the burgher forces should be properly armed if the Defence Force was to be any good at all.

said he had a similar experience to that related by the hon. member for Jeppe with regard to some telegrams. He received a notification that three telegrams were awaiting him at the post office. When he got there he was told there were no telegrams. Three days later he received the telegrams, whose numbers corresponded with the numbers on the notification card he received. He also wished to know what action the Minister was going to take in regard to the stabbing of Allan Muir by a member of the Imperial troops in July? The Commission found that the sergeant was not justified in stabbing Muir.

It was incumbent on the Minister to do something in connection with the stabbing of Allan Muir. He suggested that next time the Minister declared war on the workers he should prevent his Generalissimo going round the country making political speeches. The Minister should remind that gentleman that he was not paid to conduct political campaigns. Proceeding, he said he wanted to draw attention to the treatment of the Naval Cadets, who were a body well worthy of the support of the House. They got a capitation grant of 5s., and now they had to depend on voluntary contributions. The lads got such a training that it improved their physique and mentality. He saw that once more they had on the estimates £85,000 as a contribution to the Royal Navy. He put it to the Minister that he should add the £85,000 to the subsidy to the shipping company, and use the money as interest on a loan under which they could build their own fleet of ships. They would then be doing something to keep up their end of the stick from a Naval point of view. It would remove them from the octopus of the shipping company if they built their own ships. They would then be independent of any shipping rings whatever; they could carry their own passengers and could bring out emigrants cheaper than they could by the Union-Castle or by any other line. The time had long since passed when they should have set to work to build their own ships, instead of contributing to the Navy.

pointed out that the age limit for school cadets was 17, and this should be altered to 19. He said that in the higher schools boys remained till they were 19 years of age.

said he also wished to draw attention to the large salaries paid to young officers in the Defence Force. A great deal of harm was being done by those excessive salaries, and a tight enough grip was not kept on the matter. He had been surprised to find the scale of salaries which was obtaining in regard to young men with no experience at all. The salaries were quite out of proportion to the monetary value of the services of those young officers. He also wished to refer to the use of Dutch in the Defence Force. He would not have raised that matter had he not been asked to do so. He was informed, that no Dutch was used in the training of the Police and Artillery as a medium of instruction. He was informed that no commands were, given in Dutch even in corps which consisted almost entirely of Dutch-speaking people. In the Police, recruits had to pass in English and riot in Dutch. He asked the Minister to give them some information as to the Imperial Conference on Defence. That was a matter that had been referred to some time ago by the Prime Minister or the Minister of Defence of New Zealand, who had said that there was to be an Imperial Conference or. Defence this year. The Minister of Defence (General Smuts) had told them that he knew nothing of it. Could the Minister tell them now whether there was to be a Conference, apart from the question of whether he had received an invitation or not, and would he tell them what their policy was going to be? He also wished to call attention to the position occupied by the Minister. The Minister in charge of that Department was also in charge of two other departments. If hon. members would look at the book of Estimates they would see that it consisted of 224 pages, of which the Minister was responsible for 84. The Minister had taken one-third of the whole of the Estimates apart from a general supervision of the rest. He did feel that the Department of Defence was a very onerous department, and it wanted a great deal more detailed supervision than it was receiving at present. The other departments were also suffering because the Minister in charge of them was also in charge of the Department of Defence.

I cannot allow the hon. member to discuss that. Order 19 deals with the matter.

asked whether it was not in the discretion of the Chairman to allow such a discussion when there was no possibility of the order in question being reached.

I will deal with the Order Paper as I find it.

continuing, said he hoped next year they world have an opportunity of discussing the matter.

said that he desired to make an appeal to the Minister of Defence for an increased grant to the Naval Cadet Corps. The grant of £60 per annum at present given only meant 5s. per head per annum. But of this they had to pay £30 for an instructor. He urged that a grant of 10s. per head should be given and that the authorised strength of the Corps should be raised to 200.

asked the Minister to give some attention to the districts adjoining Bechuanaland. He urged that telephone communication should be established in these parts of the country so that men could be called out in quick time.

said he hoped the Minister would see, to it that staff; officers would not make promises which could not be carried out. During the January troubles burghers had asked that they should be supplied with arms and ammunition, and he knew that in many cases promises had been, made which had not been carried cut. Such a state of affairs did not contribute towards a feeling of confidence between officers and men. He claimed that burghers should be supplied with arms and ammunition. Mr. Serfontein proceeded to express his regret at the Minister not having made provision for the amendment of the Defence Act so that in times of peace, burghers should be obliged to join some rifle club. At present the position was unsatisfactory as men did not receive the training they should. He also feared that shortly after the Defence Act was passed a good deal of misunderstanding had arisen owing to officers not properly explaining the provisions of the law. The burghers did not, he said, understand the regulations, and he hoped the forms would be changed.

said that in connection with the Defence Force Camps a weak which was very much appreciated by the men was carried on by the Y.M.C.A. Institute. It was not their object in doing this work to make a profit. They had a large marquee at the camp, where writing facilities were provided games were indulged in and refreshments were provided at a price arranged with those in charge. It was not their desire to make a profit, on this, but they thought that, at any rate, they ought to be able to cover expenses. At the Camp held at Worcester they incurred a deficiency. This was largely owing to the very large amount of railway carriage they had to pay. He had been requested to bring the matter to the notice of the Minister with a view, if possible, of a special rate being charged by the Railway Department for the carriage of these provisions for the use of the Defence Force, instead of the full rate.

urged that the time for the holding of Defence Force camps should be altered from June to March or April, stating that in June it was especially awkward for sons of farmers to leave the farms.

said he noticed under the heading of S.A. Mounted Rifles, an item of detective force, £9,000. He hoped that a fair proportion of that amount would be allotted to the Transkei detective force. In that part of the world for a number of years past they had suffered very much indeed from stock; thefts.

pointed out that the Admiralty would not take boys for the Navy from a reformatory. He suggested the Minister should make representations by which South African boys, who wished to enter the Navy as cadets so as to become officers, should be able to sit for their examinations in South Africa. Continuing, Mr. Struben complained that the oil expert had been given only three months in which to find oil in South Africa; this was a most important matter in connection with the supply of oil fuel for the Navy from within the Empire. Valuable oil shale was available in Natal. He did not think this was a suitable occasion on which to go into the naval contribution, but he would remind the House that South Africa contributed only £85,000 to the 51½ millions which Great Britain annually spent on the Navy. He would like up-country members to realise that if our commerce were not protected by a strong fleet it would cease to be our commerce. This country was not doing its fair share in the maintenance of the Imperial Navy.

the major portion of whose remarks were inaudible in the gallery, was under-stood to say that every encouragement should be given to the lads in the Defence Force and that the Navy contribution was utterly inadequate.

wished to know why the S.A.M.R. were paid less than the S.A. Police, more particularly as the Rifles were stationed in the North, where living was more expensive. Proceeding, he compared the pay of a regimental sergeant-major with a first-class head constable, and said he did not think this disparity should exist. He also drew attention to the question of local allowances, and pointed out that whereas an officer got £60 in Kimberley, which was a most expensive place, he got £90 in Johannesburg. He had received complaints that from time to time policemen stationed at out-stations were brought into Vryburg to do drilling, with the result that these stations were under-manned. He pointed out that this was a dangerous practice on the outskirts of the Kalahari, and said he hoped the Minister would see that they did not go in for too much militarism in this country.

was proceeding to discuss the dual offices held by the Minister, when

said he did not feel justified in allowing the hon. member to go on.

said he would like to touch upon the salaries that were paid to their officers. They started lieutenants at £255, and in the first grade they went up to £2852 There was another grade, which ran from £300 to £375. In Great Britain a second lieutenant only got £95, and after six years’ service, £173.

His people keep him.

said he would quote the case of the French Army, where lieutenants were started at £112. and the maximum was £193. In the German Army, they got from £75 to £120.

That is less than the pay of a policeman.

said he thought that they erred on the liberal side in the salaries they paid these officers. The culminating point was the amount paid to the Commandant of Cadets. This gentleman drew £1,200 as his personal salary, and then he had an allowance, which brought the amount over £1,400. This was a monstrous and absurd thing.

Fancy £1,200 for examining youngsters! He had a high opinion of cadets, and he was very much in favour of the movement, but he thought it was a bit too much to pay the Commandant £1,200. Why couldn’t the Staff Officer do the work at the salary he got? He thought £600 a year would be good pay for the work. With regard to the Active Citizen Force, he saw that horse allowances were set down at £24,000 It was a new vote entirely. Then they had £6,000 down for band instruments. This was also a new vote. He did not object to the band, but he believed the Government had done away with some of the old Volunteer bands. He also asked for information with regard to the £2,000 set down for aviation, and wanted some information with regard to the Defence Conference in London.

said he hoped the Minister would realise the necessity of the various police stations in the outside districts being in telephonic communication with each other. In these vast areas it was essential that some means of communication was established. He agreed with previous speakers that the salaries of officers in the Defence Force were unduly high. The country could not afford that. He thought a salary of £600 for the Commandant of Cadets was quite sufficient. £1,200 was certainly too extravagant. As to the remarks of the hon. member for Wodehouse, he thought it was right that the young men should put up with a few privations. He did not believe there was much in the complaints about bad food.

said he welcomed the debate. When the Defence scheme was proposed, all the members of that House, with the exception of a few, held up both hands for the scheme. He (Mr. Nathan) solemnly warned the House at the time that the expense would be great, and that they were going far too quickly. Now from every part of the House came groans as to the expense. If they had begun slowly and had built on solid foundations they would not have had all that outcry to-day about the increasing expense. He pointed out that a large number of civilians came to the assistance of the Government in July and January, and their services were acknowledged by ordinary thanks. He would like to know whether that was thought sufficient. He would suggest that small discs or medals at a cost of 4d. or 5d. each be struck, that the Government should get information as to all the people who came to their assistance, and that the medal should be awarded to those people.

said that with regard to the Defence Camp at Worcester he knew that the Y.M.C.A. had been doing excellent work. They had applied to sell refreshments, but now they were selling everything, drapery, boots, clothing and other articles. The officers were carrying on the truck system. The officers made out coupons which were payable only to the Y.M.C.A. In the interest of the Y.M.C.A. itself that ought to be stopped, because the merchants of the place would object to their being given a free stand and other advantages. He himself had seen coupons signed by a certain officer and those coupons were only payable to the Y.M.C.A.

said that with reference to the salaries of officers of the Defence Force the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger) had chosen as a comparison the officers of an army who had been the worst paid in Europe. When Germany was a poor country and had to carry an army beyond her resources her citizens agreed to accept that small pay. In France the citizens had been carried away by the idea of glory and they also accepted small pay. While rigid economy was necessary in their finances in South Africa, where was the pay sufficient for a man who at any moment might be shot out of his saddle or might lose an arm? Within reasonable limits, he said there was no pay too much for the men who had to meet those possibilities.

said he had been informed by an influential Pretorian that in the Defence Department there were 110 English officials and only seven Afrikanders. He hoped the Minister would inform the House as to the correct state of affairs.

said he thought there was too much of a desire to cut down men’s pay when they were serving the country. He did not think they should bring down the wages to the lowest point. The hon. member for Worcester had referred to the truck system at the Defence Force Camp. That was not the truck system. The goods were sold at cost price. The truck system was where employers paid wages by coupons and the men had to buy at a certain store where the prices were higher than at other places. He asked the Minister to consider whether he could not give some contribution to those Y.M.C.A. camps.

said there was much dissatisfaction in his district owing to the removal of the camp from Riversdale to Worcester, which was a long distance from many of the dorps and caused considerable expense to the men affected. He hoped the Minister would draw the attention of the Commandant-General to the question.

said he desired to bring to the attention of the Minister the urgent necessity for the better arming of the Defence Force. He knew that the position at present was an unsatisfactory one. During the January troubles certain riots occurred at the Jagersfontein mine. The Defence Force came out, but at least two-thirds of the burghers were unarmed, and after much trouble about fifty rifles were obtained from one of the depots, while there was hardly any ammunition. Notwithstanding the tremendous expenditure of £1,300,000 in connection with Defence, he urged that money should be spent for arms and this should be realised before too many troubles arose. During the recent troubles the Defence Force had proved practically useless, because it was laid down in the Act that the Defence Force could only be used for the suppression of internal riots after a proclamation had been issued by the Governor-General, which, of course, meant much waste of time. Mr. Wilcocks went on to urge the supplying of ammunition at cost price and the proper organisation of rifle clubs. He referred to a statement in the “East London Dispatch” to the effect that the Graham’s Town Rifle Club would be supplied with any variety of Lee-Metford ammunition at actual cost price. He wished to ask the Minister whether this concession would be made to every rifle club.

said he thought they would find that this Defence vote would grow every year, and it was desirable that they should be very careful in this House not to encourage the Minister too much in that direction. They must be careful to see that this vote was not increased year by year to any considerable extent. When they found that a big country like England with a population of about 144,000,000 spent £28,000,000 in this way, and that South Africa, with a small population of about one and a quarter million, already spent £1,300,000 on Defence, it must fill them with alarm. He believed that the Y.M.C.A. had done very good work, at these camps. He was informed that the food supplied by the ordinary mess was not always so palatable, and that sometimes recourse was had to, the Y.M.C.A. marquee to get proper food. He hoped that the Minister would endeavour to arrange with the Minister of Railways for the carriage of these provisions at a lower rate. In connection with the Worcester Camp there were rumours of a very unpleasant nature.

Yes. All lies.

added that he hoped the Minister, if he had not already done so, would make a proper inquiry into this matter.

said he could assure the hon. member who had just spoken that these rumours, these malicious rumours-—(hear, hear)—to which he had referred in connection with the Worcester Camp were entirely unfounded. (Cheers.) They had been probing into this matter and they had found that these rumours were entirely baseless. The Commandant-General said that the behaviour of these young men at the Worcester Camp had been most exemplary. With regard to the assistance which the hon. member wished them to obtain from the railways, the railways were quite immovable on that matter. The railways said that under the constitution they were to conduct their business on business lines and they did not look upon this as business. The hon. member for Worcester had referred to some abuses in connection with the Y.M.C.A. stores at Worcester. He (the Minister) was not aware of that, and would make some inquiries. The hon. member for Von Brandis now asked the Government to give medals to those citizens who helped them during the January troubles. He (General Smuts) saw that the Labour Party were going to strike 50,000 buttons—(laughter)—partly to raise the wind and partly to reward loyal services during that anxious time. Surely his hon. friend did not wish them to make themselves ridiculous by copying an action of that kind. (Laughter.) He did not think that was an excellent suggestion. The hon. member for Cape Town, Central, made some observations in regard to salaries, but he (General Smuts) was sure the hon. member was not correct. He general Smuts) was informed the salaries of French officers had been raised. If they compared the cost of living in South Africa and in France, it would be seen that the French lieutenant’s salary of £120 a year compared quite well with our starting salary of £250 a year. He did not think we were outrageous. These salaries were arranged after very careful consideration, and in framing them regard was had not only to the previous practice in South Africa, but also police practice. The object was to have the same system of salaries in the Rifles and the Police, because it was not desired to have competition between the two forces As far as possible similar positions were arranged. Although it happened that some young men occupied the position of captains, sometimes that post was held by very, old men. As to the Commandant of Cadets, he doubted extremely whether any future occupant of that post would get £l,200 a year. Horse allowance was not paid last year; it was based on. £3 per horse. Strong representations had been made that it should be open to the 15 military districts to have a band apiece, and about £500 would be paid out to each band. That sum compared very favourably with the amounts spent on the old bands, some of which received as much, as £5,000.

Won’t you have to give a grant for, instruments?

That is included. With regard to aviation, Mr. Patterson had trained ten men in Kimberley. The six best had been sent to England, and on their return an Aviation School would be started here. It was held to be entirely indispensable to have aeroplanes for scouting, and it was estimated that one aeroplane was worth 500 men for that purpose. So far as he knew there was to be no Imperial Defence Congress this year. South Africa, went on the Minister, had to choose between having a standing army to replace the British troops or to train a portion of the police to do military service. When they saw what was done by the S.A.M.R. during the strike in Natal and other disturbances they had every reason to be satisfied with the arrangement. It was impossible to have examinations for British naval cadetships held in South Africa, as the examiners in England went almost as much by personal impressions as by written examination. The hon. member for Griqualand East might depend on it that he would get his share of the additional police. For the carrying out of the valuable work of taking boys off the streets they must rely on voluntary agencies, and he was glad that the people of Cape Town were moving in that direction, and he was sure that the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, and other rich men would be willing to help even more than they were at present. (Laughter.) It would be a standing disgrace if the Naval Cadets dropped out. Coloured artillery drivers had been employed for the purpose of economy; it was the system that used to be in force in the C.M.R. There was really no difficulty about the language question at all in the Defence Force. He had been at camps where he had not heard a word of English, the whole thing, including commands, being given in Dutch.

Not even an English swear-word. (Laughter.)

Swearing is not a weakness of the rural Dutchman. (Laughter.) The recruiting depot at Tempe was under the command of one of our most distinguished South African officers, and the training there was bilingual.

But you intend to do it.

It must be done. Continuing, he said that at the present time he had the greatest difficulty with the cadets on account of this question. Formerly boys over the age of 17 could continue as officers of cadet corps, but the present Act prevented them from doing so. The hon. member for Springs had made a brilliant suggestion with regard to a fleet, but he (the Minister) would point out that a distinguished British admiral had laid it down that fleets were no longer necessary. That being the case, they could only wait now. (Laughter.) The case of Allan Muir, which had been mentioned by the hon. member for Springs, was a very sad case, but he did not think there was need of further inquiry, as they had the full facts before them. He thought that the report of the Commission on the subject should be accepted as final.

What about compensation?

Oh, no, no. (Laughter.) Continuing, he said the hon. member for Jeppe had complained of the opening of letters in January last by the Censor, and the hon. member for Springs had drawn attention to the delay in regard to telegrams. He was aware of under Censorship regulations that telegrams were, in important cases, delayed.

They were purely private.

was understood to say that one was brought to his notice where at a critical stage one of the gentlemen sitting on the cross-benches wired and offered his services to do certain work.

That was not delayed.

That was delayed. (Laughter.) Perhaps it was some other case. Continuing, he said he must take what his hon. friend the member for Jeppe said in regard to the matter of letters, but he was not aware that any such action was taken at the instance of headquarters. Some district officer might have taken action on his own or action might have been taken by the Public Prosecutor in terms of the Post Office Act. No instructions were given for the opening of letters under the Censorship regulations. He would go into the matters which had been raised by the hon. member for Zulu-land. He was sorry the hon. member for Barkly had disappeared, because he would have liked to have asked him something about the Defence Force being called out for duty on Sunday. That was news to him (the Minister), and he would speak to the hon. member privately on the subject.

replying in Dutch to the question of payment of commandeered horses, promised to go into the question. In regard to the complaint that no ammunition was distributed in the various districts, General Smuts said the matter had been dealt with, and ammunition would be supplied, to the district commandants for distribution. As to the question of arming the burghers, that was a matter which would have to be put right gradually. A large number of arms had been distributed lately, the Minister remarked, but more would yet be done. Replying to a question in regard to the amendment of the Defence Act, he agreed that it was necessary to do so, but pressure of time had prevented him from bringing in the Bill this session. He would, however, introduce a measure next session. Replying to the hon. member for Fauresmith, the Minister said the provision in regard to the Albany Rifle Club applied to every rifle club. A certain quantity was supplied free of charge and the rest would be supplied at cost price.

said he had the envelope connected with the case he had mentioned.

Yes; I would like to see it.

said he would like it back, because his friends looked upon it in the nature of a curiosity. It contained, a perfectly innocuous letter, which was kept for a day. His friend went to the parcels counter to get a humble literary effort of his (Mr. Creswell’s) own, which had gained considerable notoriety. If the letter had been opened without the authority of the Government, he thought that something should, be said to the Control Officer. In the early part of the session he asked a question, and was told that the Government was not aware that any private letters had been opened. Surely the officer would not do it off his own bat.

The vote was agreed to.

drew the attention of the Minister to the existence of victimisation on the mines, which the Minister must know was rampant at the present time. Man after man, on applying for work, was politely told that there was no work. He would just give one illustration. Dan Simons was a prominent member of the Transvaal Miners’ Association, and had been very much to the front from the Labour political point of view. He had been a Town Councillor of Benoni for a long time, and he had been trying to get work since July. He was a good miner, and he would tell the House that good miners were very hard to get. A man was wanted at Randfontein, at the other end of the Reef. A friend came specially to tell Dan Simons that this job was open. Dan Simons went to Randfontein to make a start, but as soon as he told his name, he was told there was no job for him. That case was one of many. That method was the same as was adopted on the railway, but he did not know whether it was the case of this mine-owners following the lead of the Railway Department or vice versa. The discharges were not marked as on the railways, as having gone on strike, but they were marked in red. That had never been done before the strike. Any man who had had his discharge ticket marked in red found there was no job for him. He hoped the Minister would stiffen his back in that matter, and endeavour to make the mine-owners come to terms with their employees. That sort of thing was happening elsewhere than on the Rand. At the Premier Mine, near Pretoria, they deliberately sent away four hundred people, and told them they would not get another job there. The weakness of the whole proceeding lay in the discharge papers. The men could not get a job until they produced their papers and when they did produce them and they were marked in red they were producing their death blow so far as the job was concerned. The hon. member went on to say that he had previously asked for information regarding how many natives were employed at the work of drill sharpening and other work at which they had not been employed previously. He referred to a blacksmith on the Van Ryn Mines named Dingwall, who was asked to teach Kafirs drill sharpening, a branch of work which had hitherto been paid at the rate of £1 a day, and in many cases at the rate of 22s. 6d. a day. The Kafirs to be employed in the places of these white men were receiving 3s. a day, to do what was admittedly the most arduous work on the mines. They on the cross-benches were willing that either coloured men or natives should do that work provided they were paid at a £1 a day rate. He had heard that the idea was to employ coloured labour, instead of white, with a view to the coloured people raising their standard in life. But when they had been there two or three weeks the indentured Kafir had been put on in their places. These Kafirs were slaves scraped up from all over the Union, and they had to do any class of work required of them at the pay at which they were engaged to come to work on the mines. That system introduced a serious danger, inasmuch as it was deliberately reducing the spending power of everybody who depended upon the wage earners, and they suffered in consequence. Dingwall saw the danger of training those Kafirs at that kind of work, and refused to do it, with the result that be was discharged. He had performed a duty which the State ought to recognise by refusing to train Kafir labourers to do work which ought to be paid for at a higher rate.

asked whether the Government proposed to do anything to give effect to the recommendations of the Small Holdings Commission. That Commission had proved that there was a general demand for small holdings, and it also showed that there was a large area of land on or around the Witwatersrand which was completely closed for the purposes of cultivation owing to the gold and other laws. He did not expect the Government to do anything in the matter that session, but he would like to know whether the Government had taken the report into consideration and whether they proposed to move on the lines of the report.

asked the Minister how it was that they had not got the report of the Mines Department for that year. They were asked to discuss the finances of the country in the absence of that report. It was a disgraceful thing that they had not got it. He also asked what the explanation was for the absence of the Secretary for Mines during the strike at Benoni on the 4th July. That official ought to have been at his place. There were no superior officers there when they might have been of considerable use. There had been only underlings there who got their instructions by telegram. The gentleman in question was enjoying some yachting at Southampton while the whole of his department on the Rand was in a state of utmost confusion. They paid their officers to do their work, not to go away enjoying themselves. It would be more to the purpose if that official saw that the report of the Mines Department was before the House, instead of writing a silly essay on labour. There had been a report laid on the Table too late to study properly—that was the report he held in his hands by Mr. Buckle.

We have not had time.

said he would have thought that his hon. friend would have had time. He (Mr. Merriman) had had time to go through it. The most serious statements were made in that report. In the notices he had seen in the Press he had been surprised to see that only the frivolous complaints were alluded to and the other complaints of the most serious nature had not been touched upon. Let them take the question of inquests. He had often spoken of what a disgrace it was to them as a civilised country that there was no inquest law in the Transvaal. The report showed the necessity for that most thoroughly. Section 19 of the report pointed out the necessity for inquests— how cases were not reported and facts were not brought out at the inquiries. Those natives were killed very often, and fatal accidents took place without any proper inquiry being held. No man could read that report without saying that they very greatly neglected their duty in that respect. They called the natives their children, and wore supposed to take care of them, yet when those accidents took place no inquests were held. Mr. Buckle, in his report, said he had gone through a great many records, and in certain cases the accidents should have resulted in charges of culpable homicide, yet the highest fine that had been imposed was £25.

He did not think it reflected credit upon us. It was a matter that should be seen to. Then, with regard to “the fraudulent treatment of contracts,” this was a thing that was carried on apparently with the knowledge of everybody. They engaged a boy as hammerman at high wages, and set him to do two or three hours, sometimes half his whole shift, at lashing, for which he was paid a smaller wage.

They are paid nothing.

Yes, he is paid absolutely nothing for doing that—an absolute fraud practised upon these miserable natives. As Mr. Buckle observes, “treat the natives fairly, honestly, and well, and you require no recruiting.” Proceeding, the right hon. gentleman said that Mr. Buckle spoke of the evil influences which were at work in recruiting natives. We were setting up in this country what was complained of in almost every country where it was practised, and that was a system of peonage. Under this system the native was practically enslaved to the man who had given him credit. Mr. Buckle pointed out that it was an easy thing to stop this. We had passed an Usury Act in the Transkei, and saved the natives from one of the greatest evils, but this recruiting had been put in its place, and the whole of the Transkei had been demoralised by it. The whole thing was a damning indictment of the way in which our labour supply was carried out, and unless the Government stopped it, they would not be doing their duty. The City and Suburban managed to get their boys without this miserable system of recruiting and peonage. By regulation, it could be made impossible for these evils to be continued. There were cases where natives’ wages were withheld from them, tickets were refused to be marked, and, in fact, there was a positive premium to those contractors who were supplied with boys by the mines to defraud the boys. There were 150 licensed runners in the King William’s Town district alone. In many of these districts the utmost in some instances that one recruiter sent up to the Rand was one boy per month, and of course they had got to make a profit out of these boys and they did make a profit out of them. There were many evils referred to in this report, but he wanted to direct attention more particularly to the recruiting and defrauding of natives, the non-marking of their tickets and the shameless non-observance of contracts with them by getting work out of them which they had not contracted to do and so diminishing their wages. He would draw attention to one thing for which they were responsible to a certain extent, and that was the fact that by means of the regulations carried out by the mines they compelled the natives to remain at a lower rate of wages.

They gave the poor wretch no opportunity of rising. (Hear, hear.) There was a case quoted in the Nourse Mines (see 256) where natives were put upon piecework at the ordinary wages and by their energy and, he supposed, their skill, they earned up to 8s. per shift This was crushed by the maximum average clause which this trade union of employers had agreed upon. Lashing and tramming boys now only averaged 1s. 9d. per shift. Mr. Buckle wound up with a cynical remark, “naturally, this set of natives have been lost to the mines, and they were efficient workers.” This was not the colour bar. They were not allowed to work up to their full energy, because, forsooth, the mine-owners said that they must not pay the natives more than a certain amount per shift, though the manager had said that the piecework system was to the advantage of the mine. He would not go into the other report about the hospitals, because he had taken up too much time of the House already. (“No.”) Yet he did not think that a report like this should go unnoticed in this House because it was an excellent report, and the man who wrote it was a man of high standing and character. He Mr. Merriman) would be surprised if the Government did not take some steps to rectify these injuries which cried to heaven for redress against these wretched people whom we employed in she mines. These mines might be of the greatest possible benefit to the whole country by raising the natives up in industry. As it was what did they learn there, except vice and swindling, and that it was a proper thing to defraud a man if one could, and then, he was afraid, they turned them off if they were incapacitated with a paltry 510. He saw somebody boasting that they had lowered the cost of working. He would be glad to see the cost of working raised, if he knew that it was going into the pockets of the men who really did the work.

said he was glad that at last an echo had been found to many of the things relating to natives which they on the cross-benches had represented from time to time. The right hon. gentleman complained that the native was robbed out of his pay, that he actually worked and did not receive payment for it. He (Mr. Sampson) wanted to say that in the case of a large number of white men that was common, too. There were a large number of white men on the mines who actually owed money at the end of the month under rates which they had not fixed. Obviously the cure of the whole thing was to abolish this contract system. It was the contract system that robbed the native; it was the contract system that robbed the white man; and it was the contract system that was responsible for half the accidents, if not more. Proceeding, the hon. member said he would like to ask the Minister when the Government were going to give effect to the report of the Leasehold Townships Commission. He wanted to remind the Minister that the Transvaal Parliament promised these people relief. He wished to support the suggestion of the hon. member for Fordsburg with regard to the provision of small holdings.

said he had expected the hon. member for Victoria West would try and justify his previous references to the traders. The hon. member’s reflections were not borne out by the report of Mr. Buckle.

Will you read page 74-545, and subsection (5)?

I am giving the right hon. gentleman something he didn’t read. Will he read page 87? (Laughter.) Mr. Buckle deals with the matter from every point of view. Continuing, Mr. Schreiner said the gist of Mr. Buckle’s report was that the number of recruiters was too large but he did not oppose recruiting, and seemed to indicate that traders would be the best people to act as recruiters. Mr. Buckle did not entirely oppose the advances that were made to natives, but the abuses connected with them, and recommended a system of deferred pay in addition, which might finally render advances unnecessary. He (Mr. Schreiner) was bound to defend the traders of the Territory from the slur which it had been attempted to cast upon them. He thought the hon. member for Victoria West sometimes went too far—although he was animated by the best of motives—in inveighing against certain conditions on the Rand. He (Mr. Schreiner) was sorry that the people who represented the mines were not here to defend themselves. The words of the hon. member for Victoria West would be taken to mean that the natives were entirely underpaid. The contract wage was about 1s. 6d. a day, but most of the natives earned a great deal more than that. Then, in addition, they were provided with food and shelter, so that on the average the native got between 3s. and 4s. a day, and some a great deal more. When the natives approached him on the subject he told them that about six or seven millions were paid in dividends by the mines on the Witwatersrand, and that if the contract wage for natives was raised to 2s. a day that would mean a million and a half a year—(Labour cries of “No”)—which would have to be deducted from the dividends. What kept the mines working at all but the hope of obtaining dividends, and there were only a few of the mines which paid dividends. If the natives’ wages were raised by 1s. a day it would mean the closing down of the low-grade mines which did not pay dividends, but which, nevertheless, were doing as much for the country as the dividend payers were, because all the money disbursed by the non-dividend payers was spent in the country. If they closed up the mines they closed up the prosperity of the country. The hon. member for Roodepoort might laugh, but he (Mr. Schreiner) was absolutely certain. It was regrettable that the hon. member for Victoria West should have spoken as if he were an advocate for the increasing of native wages to almost any amount. He (Mr. Schreiner) would like to see the natives get 6d. a day more than at present, and he thought they deserved it, but if they got beyond that it would mean the closing up of many of the mines and a loss to the whole country. These things should be thought about before wild statements were made. He would like to see the colour bar removed, and he wished to ask the Minister what position the Government was going to take up about this matter. It was a matter which the Government could rectify, because it had power to make and alter regulations. He believed every man had the right to labour in any position for which he was qualified, and the time must come when that disgrace on legislation would be removed from our books.

I cannot allow the hon. member to discuss the colour bar. (Laughter.)

said he believed a regulation preventing men working more than nine months out of 12 underground would do more to prevent their getting miners’ phthisis than anything else. Allowing the Portuguese natives to remain on the mines for two years must inevitably injure their health—(cheers)—and he wanted to know from the Minister what the present position was with regard to the agreement between the Government, the Mining Houses and the Portuguese authorities, which had been the subject of investigation by the Select Committee on Native Affairs in 1913.

asked what the position was in regard to the Voorspoed Mine. For about a year the liquidation of that mine had been going on, which was unduly long. He thought that the State greatly suffered as a result of the closing of the mine. Farmers and others had derived great benefits from its working, and he claimed that the mine was a payable undertaking, and should be worked under the existing legislation. The Government had promised that the mine would resume work as soon as the work of liquidation had been completed.

said that during the time he had been in Parliament he had never listened to a more disappointing speech than that which had fallen from the lips of the hon. member for Tembuland. When he (the speaker) first entered Parliament, he looked upon the hon. member as the champion of the natives in this country, and listened with great interest to the speeches of the hon. member But he had formed an entirely different opinion regarding the hon. member’s interest in the natives after hearing the speech he had just made. The hon. member had attacked the right hon. gentleman the member for Victoria West, but there was sincerity in the remarks of the right hon. gentleman, while on the other hand there was none in the speech of the hon. member for Tembuland. It was the white trader he was thinking about all the time. Proceeding, Mr. Creswell said that the hon. member saw nothing in the report at all which gave him any ground for being disturbed.

The fact of the matter was that “cheap” labour was never really cheap labour—it was the dearest of all labour. The hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Schreiner) had attacked his hon. friend for having said that if a black man did a white man’s work, he should receive the white man’s pay. The hon. member for Tembuland had convinced himself that he was the champion of the natives, and that anything he said must be in the native interest. Then the other section thumped into his head economic facts about the mines not paying, and then the hon. member said that it was in the interests of the natives that they should receive one shilling a day, and not 1s. 6d. a day. (Labour laughter.) After that day’s performance, he did not think they would listen to the hon. member with any great appreciation of his championship of the natives. The hon. member had said, in finishing his speech, that what they (the Labour members) wanted was that the natives should not go to the Rand at all. They had seen for many years the fruitful evils of the present system in its reaction on the white population. But, like every other evil thing, it also affected every side. He wanted to suggest to the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) whether, after reading Mr. Buckle’s report, he would not admit that there was a great deal in the Labour members’ contention that that modern form of slavery was incurable as long as it rested on a criminal law. He wanted to point out to the right hon. gentleman that he was engaged in the same way as the old slavers—trying to get rid of the inherent evils of slavery by regulation. They placed a certain number of men under the control of an employer, and the employee was bound to him, and a breach of contract, instead of being a civil matter, was a criminal offence. They (the Labour members) had made up their minds that the whole basis of that system of recruiting was a bad thing, and that abuses flowed from it as naturally as water flowed downhill. He read a circular recently issued by the Chamber of Mines to the mining companies, which, he said, showed in every line the immense solicitude there was for the natives. The circular referred to natives suffering from miners’ phthisis. It pointed out that, owing to a delay of two weeks, the natives sometimes remained in hospital until they died. Continuing, he said that if a delay of a fortnight meant that a native had to be kept in hospital until he died it was perfectly clear that the native applicant for miners’ phthisis compensation had very little chance of getting compensation until he was nearly dead. Very large numbers of natives who suffered from miners’ phthisis did not get compensation, nor were they likely to get it. All those abuses were the result of the policy he had referred to They looked upon that policy as a disadvantage both to the natives and to the Europeans. They should look after the native in his own territories, and not look on those territories merely as favourable breeding grounds for cheap native labour. They found that Mr. Buckle pointed out that it was the view of some responsible natives in the native territories that the Rand was a university of crime. He did not think they should run away with the idea that the measures that had been taken on the mines had necessarily induced the incidence of miners’ phthisis. It had not been shown that the number of cases had at all diminished.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

resuming his speech, said that with regard to the position in relation to miners’ phthisis he thought the most reliable indicator surely would be the number of persons applying for compensation. If the figures which the Minister gave the House on Tuesday last were maintained it did not look as if there were any diminution at present. He would like to support what had been said by his hon. friend about the Eastern areas, and to urge upon the Government to consider the advisability of taking the Eastern areas into their own hands. He would like to know what the Government were doing in regard to the proclamation of diamond digging areas. He would like to say in reference to what the right hon. gentleman had said about the absence of the Secretary for Mines that he really did not know whether he (Mr. Merriman) expected the members of the Civil Service of this country to never take a holiday.

Not if there is a row on.

said that no one could see that the row would ever achieve those tremendous dimensions. He did not think anyone could have anticipated that between June 13 and July 4 events would have rushed after one another in the way they did.

said he thought the right hon. gentleman was a little bit hard upon a certain class of the community in the speech he had made that afternoon. He poured fire and brimstone upon the heads of their unfortunate traders. He did not think that the report of Mr. Buckle quite supported some of the charges that had been made. All he could say was that he had known many of these traders, and better men one would not meet anywhere. (Hear, hear.) He had known traders for the last 50 years, men who had lived as thoroughly honourable lives as any of them here in this House, and men who were very careful of their native customers. The hon. gentleman on the cross-benches almost led one to believe that the Europeans were to blame for having the natives in this part of the world at all. He seemed to forget that when the Europeans came to this country the natives were here.

Not on the mines.

said that the record of the Europeans in this matter would bear a great deal of investigation. When he came to this country the natives were only too busy in what was called “washing their spears” in one another’s blood. Their labours during the last 50 years had been in the direction of changing these native warriors from fighting machines into working machines—(hear, hear)—and when they managed to send 200,000 or 300,000 of them annually to the mines that was a matter he thanked heaven for. It was impossible to expect chat with the large number of natives that Were sent there a good deal of trouble would not result. He saw many things that must bring many a blush to the cheek not of the mine-owners merely. His hon. friends on the cross-benches were apt to forgot that when a white man was getting 17s. 6d. or £1 a day he was actually getting wages that ought to be paid to the black man. With reference to the traders, he would like to call the right hon. gentleman’s attention to the fact that there was a great deal of difficulty In that matter. In the Native Affairs Committee they found that the pull was between the native traders on the Rand and the native traders in the areas in which the natives resided. The native traders on the Rand objected of any wages being paid to these natives away from the Rand. Natives had to go out to work in order to get cattle to buy their wives. We should be thankful that there was work for the natives on the Rand— (hear, hear)-—and we should try to make the natives one of the most valuable assets we had (Cheers.) The hon. member for Victoria West should cash his eye over paragraph 13 of Mr. Buckle’s report. Mr. Buckle stated that there were many things he deplored on the Rand, but that luring the last two years great improvement had taken place, and that all those responsible for the natives had done a great work in improving the conditions

said he would like to remind the hon. member for Queen’s Town that although Mr. Buckle did say there had been a marvellous improvement on the Rand, he was only speaking comparatively. If there had been a marvellous improvement in the last few years the hon. member must see what a terrible state must have existed before the change took place. The reports of Magistrates and Native Commissioners showed that traders tried to get natives into debt and also the parents of families into debt so as to make the parents use their influence to send the boys to work on the mines. The chiefs were also bribed to bring pressure to bear on the natives with the same object.

Who bribed them?

The labour agents. I am not saying that the traders did all this. Continuing, Mr. Madeley said the objections were substantiated by the report of the Native Affairs Department. Having asked if the Minister had decided to do anything in connection with the establishment of rescue stations for the Natal mines, Mr. Madeley said he had received information which proved the absolute necessity that there should be an inquest law. A man employed on the State mine died as the result of a blasting accident, and at the departmental inquiry it was stated that the cause was a running fuse, but instead of testing the fuse found on the deceased a piece of fuse was obtained from the store. Then three miners who would have given important evidence were discharged.

said that some time ago the hon. member for Victoria West suggested that the alluvial diamond diggings should be closed, but he did not tell the diggers where they could get a living elsewhere. The State, added Dr. Watkins, should try to improve the conditions on these diggings, especially for the women and children.

said he had never been so much surprised in his life, as he was when he was listening to the words of the hon. member for Tembuland. He was surprised at the hon. member’s loyalty to the mine-owners, and to hear him urge that the ‘work should not be adequately paid for because the mine-owners would suffer, and he said also a good word for the traders, who, according to him, were noble and good men. Proceeding, Dr. Neethling said that they were led to believe by the hon. members on the cross-benches that the Kafirs should not go to do certain work on the mines. He was glad to say that there was some improvement in the direction of improving the conditions of the natives. They were led to believe from figures quoted that miners’ phthisis was on the increase. He would admit that the figures were somewhat alarming, but certainly from the evidence which was placed before the Miners’ Phthisis Committee it seemed that the disease was not increasing. If they went on improving the conditions in the mines there would be far fewer cases of miners’ phthisis in the future than there had been in the past.

He congratulated the Minister of Mines on making the attempt he was doing in trying to stem the tide of that disease, and he thought there was unnecessary alarm. They ought to be very thankful that the Government were taking the action they were doing in trying to curb that disease on the Rand.

said there was a very serious allegation in the report in regard to the manner in which the medical officers of mines carried out their duties, and it was only fair to the medical profession that some inquiry should be made into the facts regarding the matter He would like to know what were the duties of the Medical Inspector of Mining Areas, who was down in the vote as drawing £900 a year and travelling allowances of £138. If the native hospitals were being neglected in the way it was suggested they were, why did not that officer draw the attention of the Government to the matter?

With regard to the general question raised by the right hon. gentleman, everyone must recognise that a great deal had been done for the native labourers on the mines during the last few years, and a great deal was still being done, but that the thing was satisfactory nobody could possibly say. He agreed with all that regulating of the conditions of the native labourers on the mines, but that was an attempt to deal with symptoms without attempting to deal with the cause. The cause, in his mind, was the indentured labour system, and the country would never be free from those disquieting symptoms while there was that system of servile labour. He regretted they had not had a formal debate on that question of indentured labour, but he would do his best next session to see that they had a formal debate. All that tinkering and attempting to remove the evils arising from the employment of those natives—who were not allowed their own remedy which they could adopt if they were free men by leaving their employment—was of no use, while all the anxiety of the poor whites who could not find work could be traced down to that system of servile labour.

said that the hon. member for Beaufort West had referred to the evidence of Dr. Kotze before the Miners’ Phthisis Committee, but he should have had that gentleman’s evidence before him and have quoted the exact words. The hon. member went on to quote from the report to show that the doctor said that the extremely fine dust which was still in the mines was considered to be the real danger in miners’ phthisis. There was nothing in the evidence to justify the hon. member in stating that the committee had reasons to be satisfied that the disease was diminishing. Such figures as they had went to show that men were coming forward as rapidly as ever they were, claiming compensation, and on examination being found to be suffering from the disease. There was a great deal to be done before that disease was eradieated. Reverting to the report of Mr. Buckle when that gentleman dealt with the compensation of natives, the hon. member called attention to that part of the report. He pointed out where the natives had “failed to receive ” the compensation due to them, and Mr. Buckle said that it was an unbusiness-like arrangement to leave the decision as to whether the miners should be paid compensation virtually in the hands of the nominees of the mines. The decision of the mine doctors should be confirmed by the Government Medical Officer.

On that subject of the Government Medical Officer (went on the hon. member), there was only one Medical Officer, and he had charge of the whole of the natives of the Witwatersrand. Not only had he charge of the natives on the Witwatersrand, but he had to make excursions into other Provinces of the Union. What kind of examination could that gentleman give to those natives—three or four hundred thousand of them—and he had a private practice of his own in addition? That was a most important matter, and though he fully agreed with the hon. member for Fordsburg that the crux of the whole question was the indentured system of native labour, even if the natives were free, they would need a considerable amount of inspection if justice was to be done. On going into the question of the examination of natives by medical officers, they found in the report that sometimes as many as 1,000 boys were examined in the hour by the Medical Officer. A fine opportunity there was for that gentleman, be he ever so willing, to discover whether each boy was suffering from miners’ phthisis or not They would have to go past at the double to be examined at that rate. He did not know whether the Minister would take into consideration the appointment of further medical officers for the men. No doubt he would say that would cost a lot of money, but human life was involved to an enormous extent. Surely the Government, as a protector of natives and the father as it were of those children, should in duty bound see that they should receive the benefits to which they were entitled.

Mr. Buckle said in his report that the interest of the natives clearly demanded some further protection. They had heard that some steps had been taken to inform the natives of what they were entitled to, and he saw by the report that, after that, twice the number of applications for compensation were made than had been the case previously. The hon. member for Queen’s Town, in the course of his remarks, rather plumed himself and the people in this country during the last fifty or sixty years on having turned fighting machines into working machines. He thought it was difficult to decide whether it was more desirable to have a lot of undersized and underfed working machines, instead of a lot of healthy, strong, fighting machines. He did not think that the turning of men into working machines had Improved the breed in England, Scotland, Ireland or any other country. They heard too much of the great asset the native was to this country. That was how the working people were looked on, as assets—children out of the workhouses of 6, 7 and 8 years of age. There was honour in labour, providing a man was doing something useful, was working for his own benefit and the benefit of his family. But when he was only working and receiving enough to keep his body and soul together, he (Mr. Andrews) was not particularly enamoured of talking about him as a great; asset. He hoped the Minister would not minimise the criticism that had been directed to that subject, because he was prepared to admit that the Minister was doing his best under very difficult circumstances.

said the hon. member for Beaufort West had said that he had been defending the mine-owners. He (Mr. Schreiner) had been defending the mining interests in the general interests of the country. The Transkeian General Council had passed a resolution in favour of a continuance of the system of £5 advances. He referred to the evidence given in Johannesburg by Mr. Tom Mathews, who put forward the view that the natives should be sent back to the particular parts of the country from which they came, and that their places should be filled by white people. He wanted to say that he had never put himself forward as the champion of the natives or anything of that kind. He had done his best to forward their interests in that House and outside the House, and would continue to do so. He could safely leave the natives to make their choice between hon. members on the cross-benches and himself. (Labour “Hear, hears.”) When he had mentioned the matter of 6d. additional pay per day on 200,000 natives, he had said that that would amount to millions, and that was quite correct. He thought they might possibly go as far as 1s., which would be three million, but 2s. 6d. would destroy the industry. (Labour laughter.) If the people were being forced to labour it would be quite a different thing. The hon. member for Fordsburg (Mr. Duncan) spoke about indentured labour being the cause of all the trouble. The fact was that because the natives could not help themselves the Government had had to step in and see that the native was properly protected. That was the meaning of indentured labour to a very large extent. He believed that if the natives were left to themselves there would be a large number going up to the mines, but the need for Government regulation and protection would still remain.

said the hon. member who had just sat down had been one of the disappointments of that Parliament. The hon. member was very misguided. Early that session he (Mr. Meyler) had had to accuse him of being more loyal to the mining industry than to the natives. The hon. member admitted that he did not pose as a champion of the natives, but was out to defend the mining industry—(hear, hear)— that was exactly what it was—he was completely intoxicated with that wonderful bubbling wine that rose up around him. The hon. member came there and wanted to tell them that the natives were going up to the mines of their own free will. If the hon. member went to a Magistrate’s Court in Natal or elsewhere he would find almost every day a lot of natives brought up charged with State-made crimes, for which they would in ordinary circumstances be fired about 10s. His experience in the past was that if a recruiting agent was waiting outside the fine was up to £5, because it was then known that the fine would be paid. The magistrate did not want to send the natives to gaol, he wanted to show big revenue from his own district. One of the largest sources of revenue was the fines from the natives’ and those fines were doubled and trebled if the recruiting agent was waiting outside the court. That was one of the evils of the whole system of advances. The hon. member for Tembuland jeered this afternoon at those who suggested that the right place for the natives was their natural habitat on the land. The state of the native locations on the Rand as disclosed in these reports was abhorrent to any decent man. It was a disgrace to the country, and should be put, a stop to. They had an excellent Civil Servant at, the head of the Mines Department, and he knew that the Minister also took a very great interest in this matter, but they had got a tremendous work before them, and all they could do was to keep on pegging away. He would sooner see the mines closed down than that these disgraceful conditions should continue.

said that the hon. member had stated that in ordinary cases where natives were brought before the Magistrates’ Courts in Natal and a fine of 5s. or 10s. would be imposed, the Magistrate, knowing that the labour agent was waiting outside, lined them £5 under instructions from the Government. This, he said, was a monstrous and wicked libel on the Magistrates, and the hon. member should rise in his place to withdraw it.

I will rise in my place, and I will affirm from my own knowledge. It is a thing I have seen myself in the Magistrates’ Courts. I have lived in places where these things have happened, and it is a matter of general knowledge not only amongst the white people, but amongst the natives themselves.

said he did not think it was a matter of general knowledge. He had lived in Natal probably ten years for every year that the hon. member had lived there, and he must say shat he thought the hon. member was going a little bit too far in the wild statements he had made here. He (Mr. Fawcus) did not think that the Natal Magistrates should be dealt with in the trenchant way in which the hon. member for Weenen had dealt with them He thought the hon. member in his calmer moments would see that he had been a little bit carried away by the exuberance of his own verbosity.

said he would like to ask the Minister if there was any possibility of the alluvial diggings adjoining the farm Killarney being thrown open?

said that on a farm in the Carnarvon district some people had spent a good deal of money in boring for oil. As in many of these things, just as they were coming near, as they thought, to success, the money gave out and the operations had to be suspended. Now they saw that the Government were about to prosecute some researches in different parts of the country for oil, and they had applied to the Government to see whether they would not take up this project and go a little deeper than they had gone. An expenditure of a few thousand pounds might turn out a great success. The answer of the Government was that the oil expert, Mr. Craig, who was out here, had never seen any country like this produce oil. He (Mr. Merriman) hoped the Government would not turn a fine sneer of contempt on this undertaking, because Mr. Craig, said there was nothing in it. It might turn out a very good thing. There was one other question he would like to bring to the notice of the Minister and that was a report to the effect that accidents in England were largely owing to the eight hours day. (A laugh.)

Speeding up.

That is rather a silly laugh, because that report is made by working men themselves. Trade Union people. Some Trade Union people are extremely opposed to this eight hours a day. They say that the whole system of speeding up is detrimental to the men in many ways and that it is productive of accidents.

said he hoped that the right hon. gentleman did not seriously advance the argument that it was on account of the eight hours day that the accidents occurred.

I did not advance it. I am only quoting from reports.

said that it was really a coincidence. It was due to the introduction of the eight hours day, resulting in speeding up. With a short day men were not so tired, and therefore were not so liable to have accidents.

Don’t work at all.

You don’t believe in that, do you?

said it was not often that they had the hon. member for Victoria West advocating expenditure. (Laughter.) Referring to the report of Mr. Cunningham Craig, Mr. Oosthuisen said he had good reason to believe that if prospecting for oil were carried out in the Jansenville district it might result in finding something. Some enterprising gentlemen at Port Elizabeth imported a drill to prospect for oil and found only hot water, but Mr. Craig said that they had selected the most unfavourable spot for drilling. No doubt these gentlemen would be only too glad to prospect in the Jansenville district.

said the bore to which the hon. member for Jansenville had referred to was put down 3,600 feet, and now 900,000 gallons of hot water were coming from the hole every day. He believed the syndicate would be prepared to drill for the Government on the £ for £ principle.

quoted from an official report with regard to the Natal coalfields, which showed that the deposits were not inexhaustible and that the extent of really first-class coal was far less than was generally supposed. The coal was in two seams and the top one was not worked; Government should insist on it being worked. Mr. Jagger asked the Minister if he intended doing anything in the matter.

said he quite agreed with the hon. member for Cape Town, Central. Although the Natal coal supply was not inexhaustible we were inducing the companies to send the coal out of the country. It was time we called a halt and reserved to ourselves the coal which really belonged to the country.

said the hon. member for Victoria West had made an appeal to him, but he was afraid if he listened to it he might get into hot water. (Laughter.) If the Government were to spend £2,000 or £3,000 on prosecuting an experiment at Carnarvon, which the oil expert had condemned, there would be trouble. The attitude which the Government took up with regard to experiments of that kind was that if there was a reasonable hope of success and the Government could give assistance in a legitimate way, they were prepared to consider those proposals, and if the constituents of the right hon. gentleman or of the hon. member for Jansenville would put a practical proposition before the Government the Government Mining Engineer would go into the matter and if he was satisfied that it was a business proposition, he (the Minister) would give the matter sympathetic support. Since Mr. Craig had visited that particular place there had been a further report made which was sent up to the Government Mining Engineer, who had gone into the matter, and said that they could not recommend their spending money on it. If in those circumstances the Government had to spend £3,000, and it came before the Public Accounts Committee, he would like to hear what the right hon. gentleman would have to say on the matter. The hon. member for Bechuanaland had asked about the proclamation of native reserves or locations in Bechuanaland. The position was that that particular location was closed and they could not interfere with it without an Act of Parliament. The general policy of the Government was against throwing open those locations, and certainly without the consent of the natives themselves.

Dealing with the questions put to him by the hon. member for Springs, the Minister, with regard to victimisation, said that he had been in Johannesburg and inquired into that matter, and he found that the mine-owners took up the attitude—and he (the Minister) thought not an unreasonable one—that when they could not re-employ all the white people thrown out in July and January last, they should select those who had not caused trouble. These people came out in the sympathetic strike that took place, and on that occasion mine-owners were victimised by the workers, who did not give a motive but simply went out. Now they were expected to re-employ all those men, and he thought it was not unreasonable that if they could not find employment for all they should find work for those who had not given them trouble. Victimisation was a thing that must apply to both sides. In reference to the alleged cure of miners’ phthisis by Dr. Spellman, a Select Committee had made some inquiries into that matter and their decision was problematical, but the Government could not undertake to inquire into every alleged remedy which a doctor or farmer or anybody else brought forward. If they were to do that they would have the whole department inquiring into alleged cures for diseases of human beings and animals and so on, and they could not do that. Dr. Speilman asked the Government whether they would be prepared to investigate his claim, and he gave as his reasons that he had put his alleged remedy for miners’ phthisis before the Medical Council of Johannesburg, and they had refused to look into the matter for professional reasons. He would not disclose his remedy, and they had refused to look into the matter at all. He had approached the Chamber of Mines, but the Chamber backed up the medical profession, and they would not go into it. Proceeding, the Minister said he decided that he would go into the matter on certain conditions: firstly, that Dr. Speilman satisfy four medical experts that he had a prima facie case, and in doing that he need not disclose his remedy; then they must agree to the amount of bonus to be paid to him if his remedy was found to be efficacious; and, thirdly, that if a prima facie case was made out, a Commission was to be appointed to go into the matter, but before that Commission he must disclose the remedy. He refused to accept those conditions. As a matter of fact, the amount of money which he asked was exorbitant.

What did he ask?

said perhaps he had better not say at that juncture, but he regarded the amount as exorbitant. But, apart from that, if Dr. Speilman had any confidence in his own methods and in the Government, he ought, after having proved that he had a prima facie case, to be prepared to disclose his remedy. At all events, the Government was not prepared under the circumstances to continue the negotiations. In respect to the question of the natives doing underground drill sharpening work, said the Minister, there was nothing in the law of the mining regulations or anywhere else to prevent natives from doing that particular work, and further, there was no obligation on the part of the employers to supply the information asked for by the hon. member for Springs. As a matter of fact, that particular information he had no objection to give, but he had not the figures by him then. They were, however, by no means so startling compared with the number of men who were doing that work. The hon. member for Fordsburg had asked about the Small Holdings Commission’s report. They had had no opportunity during the present session of going into that very complicated matter. The question of the ownership of land on the Witwatersrand was very complicated indeed, and he was very doubtful if they would be able to do anything at all. The Government was prepared to consider the report of the Small Holdings Commission, but whether they could put into effect their recommendations was very problematical.

On the 24th June.

said it was on the 24th June that the New Kleinfontein Mine definitely decided to take in outsiders, and then the trouble only spread to the Van Ryn Mine. It was only on the 3rd July that the trouble spread outside the neighbourhood of the East Rand. When the trouble arose no one more regretted than the Secretary for Mines that he was not on the spot, and he came back immediately. For the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman), without any grounds, to attack an official of that kind was neither right nor fair. A good deal had been made of the question of inquests. The late Minister of Justice had given a promise that he would look into the matter. That undertaking had been faithfully kept and towards the end of last year an inquest law for the whole of the Union was published. It was hoped to deal with the matter next session. With regard to Mr. Buckle’s report, he wanted to say that, although Mr. Buckle was appointed to inquire into that matter by himself in 1913, he was appointed by him as Acting Minister of Native Affairs, and that report was more germane to the Department of Native Affairs. As far as the points relating to the Mines Department were concerned, they had been referred to the officials, and they would do what they could. He did not know until he had studied the report of Mr. Buckle that there had been such an inducement to deprive the native of his legitimate wages. What was the position with regard to the hammer boys? They were engaged for a fixed wage per day to drill a certain depth of hole. Then they came on in the morning and for hours they had to do lashing and had to remove the stuff that had been blasted the previous day. They then started drilling their hole. What happened? If at the end of their eight hours they had not succeeded in drilling the full 30 inches they got no pay for that day at all—no pay for lashing or for drilling the hole. That seemed to him monstrous—he could not conceive anything of the kind. It went further, the white miner had got it in his power to deprive the native of his wages. The white miner was the only man who could say whether the native had drilled his 30 inches. The hole was charged with the other holes, and all the evidence was destroyed. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman) had said that the only way it could be abolished was by abolishing the contract system. He (the Minister) absolutely agreed with that. He thought it would be better for the white miner and better for the native labourer if the contract system were abolished. (Hear, hear.) If by that discussion the hands of the Department were strengthened and they could get rid of the contract system he was satisfied that it would be an excellent thing. (Hear, hear.) The system had been done away with on the West Rand, and at Kimberley it was removed six years ago. One of the reasons why it was not removed from the Rand was because it was popular with the men, and the mine managers on the whole were also in favour of it. A great number of evils in Johannesburg arose from the contract system, particularly in connection with wages and the marking of tickets. They provided almost an inducement to a man not to mark the tickets properly. He would certainly give instructions that special attention should be paid to the matter.

Yes, for the worse.

Yes. Where the normal condition was that when the natives are recruited they go to the mines and then go back to their kraals and retain a certain amount of family life, they now go to the compounds and become permanent inhabitants there. The attractions of Johannesburg in the form of liquor and other vices of that kind are so great that they become demoralised. Proceeding, the Minister said that, before leaving this report, he would like to remark that these abuses were not so general perhaps as one would gather from a report of this kind, a report intended to bring out grievances. There was undoubtedly a bright side, and that was that the compound accommodation and the hospital accommodation generally on the mines had improved very considerably. As regarded the Medical Inspector, this was a comparatively recent appointment. Each mine was responsible for its own natives, and had got its own doctors. The main duty of the Government Medical Inspector was to go through the hospitals from time to time and see that the accommodation generally was sufficient. The department had the boys examined when they went to the mines and also before they left again. The Medical Inspector had done a large amount of work in connection with examining patients for miners’ phthisis. This report of Mr. Buckle’s would be gone into, and if they could do anything to improve the condition of the natives they would certainly do it. As regarded recruiting, a great deal could be said for altering the present system of advances to deferred pay. As to the report of the Leasehold Townships Commission, he was afraid that that report was so double-barrelled that it was very difficult to find out exactly what the intention of the Commission was The attitude of the Government was that, in view of the impracticability of the report, they could not, as a general rule, adopt the report, but if particular inhabitants of leasehold townships came forward and asked for the conversion of their leasehold into freehold the Government saw to it that the terms were as reasonable as possible and assisted them in every possible way.

answering Mr. Serfontein, said the hon. member had better explain to his constituents why he had voted for the proposal that mines such as the Premier and the Voorspoed should pay income tax. If it were difficult for the mine to pay under old circumstances, it was even more so now. The Voorspoed Mine now belonged to the De Beers Company, and under the Free State law a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the cause of its being closed. This Commission had taken evidence, and had found that under present circumstances the working of the mine could not pay. He did not think the Government could do very much in regard to the alluvial diggings.

said he did not wish to prolong the discussion, but he wished to draw the Minister’s attention to one point in regard to the medical attendance. No one wanted the Government to take over the hospitals, but to see that the mine-owners discharged their proper duties. There were some horrid cases mentioned in the report. For instance, a part-time doctor was in charge of a mine hospital for natives with 352 patients in it. In another case a badly injured man was brought into the hospital at nine o’clock, and no doctor was available till five, before which hour the man died. The people responsible for this state of affairs should be severely punished.

said the Minister had not replied to his questions.

said he did not know what pressure the Minister could bring to bear on the mine owners to insist on their having a certain number of doctors. There could, however, be an inspector on each mine.

pointed out that the Minister had not referred to the question of the exhaustion of the Natal coalfields.

said he thought he had spoken long enough. (Ministerial cheers.) With regard to the colour bar, the matter wets discussed and the Government had given its reply. The matter did not come to the vote, but the policy of the Government was stated when the hon. member for Victoria West introduced his motion. The policy was this—the mining regulations which were framed under the Mines and Works Act laid down a colour bar, and Government as an administration must stand by the law. The present law did not take the matter further than it was before Union, and Government must stand by it until such time as Parliament or the law courts intervened. If he were to speak on the merits of the case it would take too long.

I cannot allow the Minister to do that either. (Laughter.)

said that as to the point raised by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, Government had no power to compel people to work their mines, which were private concerns. If a mine owner said it did not pay him to work a certain seam Government could not subsidise him to do so. As regards base metals, they had even less power than as regards the others. The hon. member apposite need not be so alarmed about coal mines, because new coal mines had been opened since then in Natal. In Vryheid they had plenty of coal, and he had seen a seam 11 feet high. As regards working the Government areas on the East Rand, it was quite true that they had advertised two properties for the last two years and that no tenders had been received. The hon. member for Jeppe suggested that the Government should work them, but, judging from the experience they had had during the past twelve months, he did not think that Government need hurry. They had railways in that country, and although the employees there stood on a different footing, they wanted to be treated like ordinary employees. The Government was not yet prepared to start gold-mining for itself. There would be the question of pensions, and the men would have their representatives in the House, and they knew what would happen.

who rose amid loud cries of “Vote, vote,” said that, because of these fancy disabilities, the Ministry was still allowing that country to remain under the heel of financiers. What competition was there in gold? There was absolutely none. Gold had its price, and had always a market. The Minister’s reason for the State not running its own gold mines was a very, very weak one. The Minister’s own statement that they had been advertising for tenders for these mines for two years showed the terrible position they were in in that country. What a position they had come to when a Minister of the State, whose sole object should be to do his utmost for the State, and not for private owners, said that the State was not prepared to run these gold mines. It showed they were in a very weak position indeed.

said the Minister had not answered his question, which was: what was the position with regard to the Portuguese agreement, which had been on the tapis for the past two years?

said that that was not in his department, but from general knowledge he knew that just before Union, in 1909, the Transvaal Government had entered into an agreement with the Portuguese Government for ten years.

said that his hon. friend referred to another agreement.

said that that was the case. He was referring to an agreement that natives could stay 18 months and longer on the mine, and if they did they were liable to silicosis and miners’ phthisis.

said that that was dealt with by the Minister of Native Affairs

The vote was agreed to.

The Main Estimates were reported with certain amendments, which were at once considered and agreed to.

Mr. Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and Mr. Mentz a Committee to draft and bring up the Appropriation (1914-’15) Bill, in accordance with the Estimates as adopted by the House.