Proceedings and Reports of Select Committees of the Transkeian Territories General Council, 1914; Returns of transactions approved by the Governor-General in terms of section 1 of the Natives Land Act, 1913, 16th January, 1914, to 30th April; Regulations for the Natal Museum.

Explanatory Memoranda in connection with Estimates of Expenditure on Capital and Betterment Works on the South African Railways and Harbours; plans showing proposed South Breakwater at Algoa Bay and proposed alterations to South Breakwater at Durban.

moved as an unopposed motion that the Chairman have leave to report the General Estimates, Railway Estimates, and Loan Estimates to the House, as the same may have passed through the Committee of Supply. He explained that this would expedite business a good deal, as the Estimates should be reported in sections, instead of waiting until the discussion had been completed on the whole of the Estimates.

The motion was agreed to.

in announcing the Governor-General’s assent to certain Bills, said he noticed a statement in one of the local papers this morning to the effect that His Excellency’s assent to these Bills was given by proxy. He wished to make it quite clear that that was not so. The Government was in telegraphic communication with His Excellency, and His Excellency authorised his assent in each of these cases.

The following Bills were assented to:

Co-operative Agricultural Societies (Transvaal and Orange Free State) Amendment Act.

Indians Relief Act.

Wharfage and Light Dues Act.

Railways and Harbours Unauthorised Expenditure (1912-13) Act.

Workmen’s Compensation Act.

stated that, before the Orders of the Day were reached, he would like to make a brief statement on the question which was addressed by his hon. friend the hon. member for Fort Beaufort yesterday to the Prime Minister, who was not in a position to be present this morning. The hon. member asked what business the Government intended to proceed with this session, and, approximately, so far as human foresight could calculate, on what date the session might be expected to come to a close. With regard to the business which the Government was anxious to bring to a conclusion this session, that would be found in the first eleven Orders of the Day. Besides that, on the 16th Order of the Day, the reports of the Public Accounts Committee, some resolution would have to be come to with regard to the second report. The other reports could, in the ordinary way, be referred to the Government for consideration. With regard to the first eleven Orders of the Day, hon. members would notice that really the only matter of importance which would require time and consideration was the first Order (Estimates). The other matters were all of a formal character, or had reached very advanced stages in their consideration. The second Order (second reading, Borrowing Powers and General Loans Act Amendment Bill) he did not think would take any time. As to the third Order (second reading, Public Service and Pensions Amendment Bill), that was the result of a consideration of the matter of the Public Service before a Select Committee, and ought not to take any prolonged time in going through this House. As to the fourth Order, the Industrial Disputes and Trade Unions Bill had been so simplified by his hon. friend (the Minister of Mines and Industries) in the amendments now on the notice paper, that practically the House was left with the work already sanctioned in Committee of the Whole House. He did not think that that would take any time. Then the other matters were purely formal. Hon. members would see that it was simply a matter of passing the reports of various Select Committees, which would take no time.

How about the Medical Practitioners’ Bill?

said that the last two Orders,

Statistics Bill and Medical Practitioners and Dentists Registration Laws Amendment Bill, had already passed through the Senate, so that all that remained was the approval of this House. He hoped that the House would give its approval to both these Bills. The one was very urgently required on grounds of the highest public expediency, and the other was intended to remove an anomaly which was pressing very hard upon certain individuals. Hon. members knew that this Bill was submitted to the medical members of Parliament, and that they had all approved of it. So far as human foresight could see, this programme ought to be finished by Tuesday next. If hon. members would assist the Government by not trying to raise trifling points of debate at this expiring period of the session, he thought it might be possible even to close before Tuesday; but, so far as his Parliamentary experience went, he thought they ought to finish the business by Tuesday. That was the closest date that he could give, but his hopes were very much more sanguine. (A laugh.)

asked if the House was to understand that the hon. gentleman proposed to drop Order No. 14, Land Tax Bill, as he understood that that was one of the fundamentals on which the Government’s proposals rested? (Laughter.)

Yes.

said that in consequence of the statement made by the Minister of Finance he would move that the House do now adjourn. His reason for this was that he desired to draw the attention of the House to the Government’s attitude towards matters of vital importance to the Free State. He wished especially to direct the attention of members of the free State to this matter and to ask them to express their views. He was surprised at the statement made by the Minister. It seemed to him that there was always sufficient time to place on the Order Paper Bills of all kinds to burden the people, especially Pension Bills, which could only have the effect of rendering the administration of the country more top-heavy. The Government proposed to go on with a number of Bills of very little importance, while measures of the utmost importance to the Free State were being ignored or relegated to the waste paper basket. Bills of no importance were being passed in a lighthearted and careless manner.

What about the income tax?

said he had nothing to do with the income tax, he was speaking of vital matters to the Free State, and the measure he was referring to was the Pass Bill, which had passed its first reading some time ago. (Free State cheers.) Last year the Minister who had since died had promised that this Bill would be passed. The Bill was one of the utmost importance; it was a Bill which the Free State was clamouring for.

The hon. member must not deal with that Bill; he must, confine, his remarks-to the motion before the House.

said he thought that he was entitled to refer to the urgency of this matter which had been promised the Free State over and over again. But now, when they thought that at last the promise which had been made by the deceased Mr. Fischer and since by the Prime Minister, would be carried out, they were given to understand that their hopes were not to be fulfilled and that the Bill would have to stand down because other less important matters were to be dealt with first of all. In the Free State the Prime Minister had definitely promised the people that he would deal with this matter, and now again he was going to break that promise. A lot of Bills appeared on the Order Paper, but, he contended that none of these measures were half as important as this Pass Bill. Proceeding, Mr. Keyter said that he had heard recently outside the House what the Government’s policy was in regard to the Asiatic question. It was so extraordinary that a statement in regard to the Government’s policy should come from Mr. Gandhi.

The hon. member must not refer to that. That is passed.

said they had no less than two Pension Bills on the Order Paper now, and these Bills could only have one effect; namely, of adding to the burden of the people. He could tell the Minister that the Free State felt very strongly on this question of the Pass Bill. Of course, when laws for the Transvaal and laws for Johannesburg had to be passed the Government was always in a hurry to do so, but when the Free State was concerned it didn't seem to matter at all. (Free State cheers.) He hoped”, and in fact he was convinced, that the whole of the people of the Free State would at the right time not only make their voices heard but felt. The Government would have to take the feelings of the people of the Free State into account. They were not a lot of children to be pacified by promises which were never carried out. (Free State cheers)

seconded the motion, and said he wished to protest against the way in which the business of the House had been managed throughout this session. A lot of Select Committees had been appointed, a lot of reports had been brought up and published, but it appeared to him that a good many of these reports would have to be relegated to the waste paper basket. He would only refer to a few orders at present appearing on the Paper. There was Order No. 13, second reading of the Pass Law Amendment Bill. A good deal of time had been spent on this matter in Select Committee. The Select Committee had been instructed to go especially into the position of the Free State, and he wondered whether all the labours of the committee were now to prove useless. Then there was the second reading of the Land Tax Bill, Order No. 14. How much time had not been wasted on the discussion of that question and how often had the Government not pointed out that the imposition of a land tax such as proposed was an absolute necessity? The Government had said that there were a lot of tracts of land which should contribute towards the revenue of the country, and they asked what was going to be done now? Then there was Order No. 15, the report of the Select Committee on the Amendment of the South Africa Act. Did not the Government know that the country demanded that the name of Providence should be recognised in the Act of Union? The people demanded that, and was that demand of the people to be ignored now?

Which people?

The people of the country. Continuing, he said he thought the hon. member for Vrededorp was one of these people.

The people of the Free State only.

held that it was the request of the people of the whole of South Africa, and the hon. member for Vrededorp did not know what he was talking about when he said that the people of the Transvaal did not demand that. It was the feeling of the whole country that the name of the Almighty should be acknowledged In the Act of Union.

Don’t play with it.

repeated that he considered that the Government would be considered to have committed a breach of faith to the Free State if this Bill was not passed during the present session.

said he extremely regretted the necessity for a motion of this kind, but he felt that he would not be doing his duty if he did not support the motion. He knew that the majority of the people in the Free State had been looking forward to the passing of this measure. The position was that in the past under the old law natives had been under certain control. However, the old law had become demoralised as the result of the action of the Court. Even the natives and the coloured people of the Free State agreed to the necessity of the law being re-enforced. For instance, in the past when native beer drinks or parties were held, all natives visiting such parties had to have passes.

The hon. member must not discuss the law. The motion is that the House do now adjourn.

said he wished to object to the practice of unimportant measures being forced through at the beginning of the session and important measures having to stand over when the end of the session came.

said the Free State members were a little unfair to the Government. It would be better to wait until next year, when they could get a pass law for the whole Union.

spoke in support. Bechuanaland and Griqualand never had a pass law. He was proceeding with his remarks, when

called the hon. member to order, and said he must keep to the motion

was proceeding with his remarks, when

said that the hon. member would not get a Pass Law if the House adjourned. (Laughter.)

said the people of the Free State should be given an opportunity of expressing their feelings on this vital question. The Bill had been promised them, and the present one was useless. This was no matter of sentiment, but a claim for just rights. The Government ought to live up to its promises.

thought that time should be made for this important measure. They were here to work in the interests of South Africa, not to go home. If they would not work, they should go home at once. The Free State regarded it as a solemn right that they should recover the old conditions.

The motion was negatived.

referred to the question of boring for water, and said that under the present regulations the farms were made needlessly dear. It was also insisted on in the regulations that boring should take place even when there was opportunity to make a dam. The prices of the farms were much too high. The delays in complying with applications and dealing with correspondence were excessive.

said he would like to point out that the clerical assistants in this department had increased by 13, which was rather tall. Then he wanted to know why there should be an inspector of settlements and a superintendent of settlements. In connection with the vote for the maintenance of Crown lands and the eradication of noxious weeds, he pointed out that, of the £1,500 voted in 1912-13, only £44 11s.'6d. had been spent. Upstairs they questioned the Secretary of Lands upon this point, and he said that no action was taken unless it was proposed by the local or public authorities. He (Mr. Jagger) thought this was an extremely unsatisfactory state of affairs. No effort was made by the Lands Department to eradicate noxious weeds unless pressed to do so by the local authorities. The spreading of these weeds was a serious matter.

asked for information with regard to the White River Land Settlement in the Transvaal, on which the Government spent money about ten years ago in the construction of a furrow. He was informed that applicants for allotments could get no satisfactory reply from the Government, who had sold the land to a private company. He would have liked to have had a Select Committee appointed to inquire into this matter, but owing to the way in which the Government had monopolised the whole of the session it was impossible for him to move in that direction.

also spoke on the necessity for eradicating noxious weeds, such as boetebosje, which grew on Crown lands to the great annoyance of the neighbouring farmers. He asked how far the Government had gone with the laying out of the new town Puffadder, about a hundred miles from Kenhardt? He also referred to the poor whites, and wanted to know what was being done in that respect. People in Gordonia were being allowed to prospect for water, but after spending hundreds of pounds were unsuccessful, and the ground was taken back. An extension of time should be given these people. The ground was lying idle and useless, and the people were willing to buy it. Then there were lands leased for terms of one, two, or five years, formerly by public tender but now by licence, so that some people could not get it when they wanted it. The Government would not give them opportunities to develop the land when they wanted to, and he hoped the Minister would give the matter earnest attention. It was no use waiting for the Government water bores; they should let the people prospect for water freely, so that there need be no delay. There were not enough Government boring machines, though he knew the Minister had done his best.

said there was great danger of the Wilderness, in the George district, being damaged through wood being cut down, a portion of the land having been granted to the Dutch Reformed Church as a settlement for poor whites. It would be nothing short of a national disaster if anything were done to damage this beauty spot. He hoped the Minister would resume so much of the land as would preserve this place of natural beauty.

said that he desired to raise his protest against the action of the Government in regard to certain land in Zululand for settlement. Practically the only land in Natal for settlement purposes was in Zululand. Certain land had been surveyed a few years ago, but this and other lands were being, held up awaiting the report of the Commission under the Natives Land Act. He thought there was no justification for the action taken by the Government in holding up these lands from allotment.

spoke of the request of the Special Justice of the Peace at Roos Senekal in regard to Mapoch’s land. At present the strongest man was the master there. The state of affairs was intolerable and he trusted that the Government would carry out the definite promise they had made.

said that one really felt sorry for the condition of affairs which the Government found themselves faced with this morning. They had heard the rumblings of revolt, and just now the hon. member for Zululand had been subjecting to criticism the administration of one of the departments of the Government. Proceeding, Sir Thomas paid a tribute to the interest taken by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, in the matter of the eradication of noxious weeds. He pointed out that there was very great danger of what was a serious menace to the country being increased owing to the carelessness of the Government. He hoped the Minister would bring the matter to the notice of the Railway Department. He referred more particularly to the danger arising from Xanthium Spinosum. He also alluded to the damage which was being caused by jointed cactus and remarked that there were thousands and thousands of acres of valuable soil being rendered practically useless on account of this weed. The Government should bring pressure to bear upon another place, if need be, to point out to the local authorities that were not doing their duty that something must be done to insist upon their doing their duty in regard to the extermination of noxious weeds in their districts. As to the point raised by the hon. member for Prieska, he thought there was a great deal of truth in what the hon. member had said. He was sure that anything which was done in the direction of opening up that part of the country would meet with the approval of both sides of the House.

said he would like to ask the Minister whether his department had given any consideration to the question, as to what was the probable area of Crown land that could be utilised for land settlement.

Nothing had been done in that respect, and he thought it was time the department went into the question. He had seen the returns showing that there was between 22 and 25 million morgen of Crown lands. It was necessary that the House should have information as to how much of that land was suitable for land settlement. A lot of that land was in the Kalahari. At the present moment nothing was done there, and he did not think that land would ever be used for land settlement, but there were isolated parts in the Kalahari which could be utilised. He thought the Government should consider whether it was not possible to throw the Kalahari open. He hoped the Minister would give that matter his attention during the recess. Until such time as the Minister visited those parts he would never get a grip of the conditions that prevailed there. He wished to know whether there was any possibility of the department allotting the farms in Bechuanaland this year. The Irrigation Department had not enough boring machines. With regard to the purchase of land he thought in that respect the department was not doing so much as it might. He thought the magistrates should be instructed to report all the land that came into the market in any particular district. They often heard of land coming into the market which was suitable for land settlement purposes, but very little of that land was acquired for settlement purposes. If the Land Settlement Act was to be a reality then he thought the department must adopt a more vigorous policy, otherwise they might look on the Act as a dead letter. He knew the department was hampered by the Act, which laid down that everything that was done must be approved by the Board. The members of that Board were scattered all over the country, and it was difficult to get into touch with them. If the Act required amendment, then that ought to be done. There was one more matter to which he wished to refer, and that was the question of the petition of Mr. Smith. He was very much disappointed with the treatment that had been meted out to that particular gentleman. Some years back a Select Committee was appointed, and it brought up a report. A Bill was promised to deal with the matter, but now they were at the end of the session and nothing had been done. He did not think it was fair to keep that petitioner on a string like that.

asked what had been done in regard to some land which had been laid out at one time? He referred to the White River Settlement. That was a scheme entered into by the Crown Colony Government in the Transvaal, and some irrigation works were carried out. It was afterwards found that the land that would be served by the irrigation works, was not worth the money spent on irrigation. He wished to know what was being done with that land? The settlers one after another failed to make a living, and were reduced to want. He understood that the settlers who had remained had made an application for the whole; of that particular land. He thought the work of the Land Department was based on a principle of deliberation—it proceeded Very slowly, and it took months and months to get anything done. People who applied for land could not even get an answer. With reference to some land at Rooibek, the Minister and his predecessors had dealt with that matter. It had gone to the Land Board, and they had always received a reply to the effect that the matter was about to be attended to. That had gone on for two years, and he wanted to know when some move was going to be made? The Land Department, of all the departments of the State, was the last to get a move on.

asked when the Minister would give effect to the recommendations of the Leasehold Townships Commission? That matter interested a large number of people who were looking to the Government to give them some relief from the extortionate terms of the township companies. He urged the Minister to give some consideration to the matter, which affected some thousands of people on the Witwatersrand. He asked the reason for the item “allowance to part-time officer at Delmas Settlement, £60.”

said they had been in Union for four years, and as regards the settlement of their large tracts of Crown lands in the Northern parts of the country, they did not seem to have got any further than they were four years ago. He would take the House back to 1905, when, in the Cape Parliament, they passed a law by which a man could make application for a piece of this land. It was granted to him, and he became the owner of the land. But they found that this system did not work. In 1908 the Cape Parliament passed an Act which provided that the Government should give a man a piece of land for one year for the purpose of water prospecting, with an option of purchase, and that at the end of that time they could allow him a further period of one year. If at the end of two years he did not find water, he had no further claim to the land. The idea at the time was that, at the end of two years, a man was not necessarily to be turned out, but that it would give the Government an opportunity of ridding themselves of the wasters. But what had the Government been doing? A lot of land was given out in this way, and at the end of two years men who were in earnest were told that their right had expired, and that they could not go on. He knew of a case of two brothers who had worked hard and had spent £330, and then been turned off the land. Now the Government had a system by which they first bored for water. Alluding to the Kenhardt and Gordonia districts, he said there were people who were anxious to go on the land and prospect with the object of finding water. He did not agree with the hon. member for Bechuanaland, who said that the most of the Crown lands were not suited for closer settlement. He did not know the hon. gentleman’s idea, but his idea of closer settlement was that they should put people on land that was lying idle, according to its value. If they were to wait until the Government found water, then the millennium would come before these people would be settled.

drew the Minister’s attention to the overlapping of jurisdiction of the Land Department with the Department of the Provincial Administration, especially in regard to land connected with municipalities in the Cape Province. He asked the Minister if the Government could not formulate some scheme to make things work as smoothly as they did in the other Provinces, and so avoid the unconscionable delay in the settlement of simple transactions in land connected with municipalities. He supported the point brought forward by the hon. member for Cape Town, Gardens, and thought the Government should take steps to preserve the natural beauties of the place known as the Wilderness.

moved to reduce the item Land Boards fees and expenses by £1. There were certain Crown lands in Paulpietersburg, the hon. member went on, and he wished to refer to the case of a Mr. Ferreira, who had made application for land in that district. Mr. Ferreira complied with the regulations in regard to the application and paid the deposit fee of £20, the receipt of which was acknowledged on the 4th July, 1912. After great delay the land applied for was granted at the price of 10s. per acre, but the amount of the surveys, instead of being £20, was £51 5s. How could a poor man who applied for land keep up with a tremendous expenditure of that kind? Explanations were asked for, and eventually, the amount of survey fees was reduced to £22. That was in January, 1913. Although a great deal of corresdence had taken place with regard on the ground allotted, and although the matter had been under consideration for a long time, Mr. Ferreira had not yet got the land, and never yet had a surveyor been on the land. It was three years since Ferreira applied, and still he had not got his land. If that was the way matters had to be carried on, then he wondered how they were ever going to get people on the land. There was another case in which a man named Viljoen had deposited his survey fees in respect of the farm Kostelik, but after two years, during which he had been kept on a string and from month to month been told that the land would be surveyed, the money had been refunded to him, because the Department in the end did not know whether the land would be allotted. The Minister ought to inquire into these matters

said he hoped the Government would be able to explain all the delays that had taken place. He wondered if the Land Board inspections were continuous picnics from the beginning to the end of the year. Continuing, the hon. member said the Government owned buildings and stands at Johannesburg which it was now letting to private individuals at less than the prevailing rents. It was very unfair, however, that Government paid no rates to the Municipality, and thus it competed with the private property owners and undersold them. The Government did nothing for Johannesburg, but squeezed out of it everything it possibly could.

said that the chief complaint in this matter seemed to come from the hon. member for Clanwilliam—and there was a great deal of force in it—that the Government was hardly doing anything at all to settle the land which it possessed. He had had some experience in connection with this matter. He referred to the case of a number of families at Brakpan, who were turned off land on which they were squatting. He endeavoured to secure land through the department for these families, but all to no purpose. He was then told that the Government had no land. The position to-day seemed to be that, on the one hand, they had plenty of land, and on the other hand, as the hon. member for Bechuanaland had said, there were 10,000 people wanting land. The question was how to bring the people to the land. The hon. member went on to refer to a petition submitted by 25 settlers (sugar planters) at Umvolosi, whose petition, he said, appeared to be a very serious one. Owing to the failure to carry out the conditions under, which these people settled on the land, they had been compelled to make an arrangement with the Railway Department to take their crops further afield. Under this arrangement the Railway Department were making a substantial margin compared with cost. In ordinary circumstances these men did not object to the Railway Department making a profit, but they contended that, in view of the fact that they were compelled to go to the Railway Department on account of the failure of the Government to carry out the conditions, they should have their cane carried at lower rates. The hon. member added that he would like some information from the Minister with regard to the condition of the various white settlements in the country. In this connection he referred to what had been accomplished at Delmas.

said he agreed that it was nothing short of scandalous to hear the admission of the Secretary for Lands that nothing was being done on Government lands for the eradication of noxious weeds. This House had passed a law on the matter, and it was not right for a Government department to sit still. The Secretary for Lands had practically said that the Government could not look after its own lands He hoped the Divisional Councils would remember that admission. They had heard in this House that the Government bred jackals. It had been argued that if a man had too much land he should be forced to dispose of it. Should not the same apply to the Government? Mr. Louw proceeded to refer to the case of five men who had applied to be settled on a farm called Rietfontein.

Business was suspended at 12.45 p.m.

continuing, said he knew the Minister was enthusiastic that land settlement should progress, but, said the hon. member, producing a few yards of red-tape from his pocket, “there is too much of this about.” There were too many officials in the department, an evil which he suggested, should be remedied by a number of these being settled on the land. (Laughter.) They had the necessary legislation to enable settlement to take place, and the fact that nothing was done was the fault of the department.

said that, with regard to the document which had been read by the hon. member for Springs concerning the Umvolosi planters, that was a matter in which he had been concerned for the last two years. Some time back the secretary of the Umvolosi Planters’ Association had sent him a petition on the question. As the petition was one which asked for monetary assistance, he went to the Government to see what could be done. He found the Government, as a whole, quite sympathetic towards those men. They realised the real disabilities-under which those men were suffering, and a certain amount of assistance was given the men. In the first place, the Government departed from the railway regulations, and as those men had their harvest ready to cut and had not the money to send it to the mill, the Government met the men in the matter, and conveyed the cane to the mill without getting payment in advance. The Government had expressed itself as ready to give the men further time to pay their first instalments.

said the Government ought to take some steps to ameliorate the conditions under which those men were labouring. He was approached by representatives of those settlers during the recess, and they put the position before him just as it had been put by the hon. member for Springs. He hoped the Minister would not let that matter wait over till next session, because there was no reason why the Government should not see that the cane was conveyed to the mill, forty miles away, at cost price. At present the railway was charging its full rate of 1s. 9d. on every ton of cane taken to the mill. The hon. member for Zululand had said that the Government was quite sympathetic, and that it had taken the cane to the mill without taking the money in advance. It was only fair that that should be done.

held that the Department of Lands, in common with some local authorities, had never yet done its duty in regard to the eradication of noxious weeds. Neither did that department do its duty in keeping the rivers clean of noxious weeds. To his mind, the great rivers were the cause of much infection being spread. The hon. member proceeded to advocate strenuous steps being taken for the eradication of Xanthium Spinosum So much was being said about closer settlement, the hon. member went on, and with the thousands of morgen of Crown lands they could not be short of ground. He hoped the Minister would take steps to see what could be done. The small amount placed on the Estimates was not sufficient for the purpose of exterminating noxious weeds. Boetebosje along the railway lines ought also to be removed, otherwise all the work of the farmers would be useless.

There were many people in Prieska who had devoted time, money, and energy in seeking for water, but when the prescribed period had passed and they were still unable to find it, they had to leave the ground, and nothing remained for them to do but to join the ranks of the poor whites.

urged that Government boring machines should be supplied to farmers in the Western and South-Western Free State. The private bores did not go deep enough. Owing to the drought, people were badly in want of some steps being taken. In regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Vryheid, he held that the cases mentioned by that hon. member were simply a few of many cases of a similar kind. All the people received in answer to their applications was an assurance that they were being considered. The department should be called “Department of Misery,” and he held that next year a Select Committee should be appointed to go into the whole question. The Government had promised them deep bores, but they had not been supplied. The department cost them a lot of money, but what was the good of it after all?

urged that a respite should be given to people who had been given cattle by the Government of the Transvaal, and were not able at present to pay both their instalments and the interest.

said he was not aware that the hon. member for Zululand was interested in this question of the sugar planters else he would have conferred with him on the subject. At any rate, a petition had been sent to him (Mr. Madeley), and he had been asked to do his best for them. Therefore he was bringing the matter to the notice of the Minister. The disabilities under which these gentlemen laboured were very many, and very serious and the hon. member proceeded to quote from the petition in order to lay the exact position before them. On the security of £3,000 the men received only a loan of £856, the costs amounting to £144. The whole of the difficulties had been brought about by the Government itself. He hoped the Minister would be able to meet the men and help them make the settlement a flourishing one.

said he was not satisfied with what had been done in this matter. He had not been idle on the subject and had been to the Land Bank officials. It would be better, however, to have a regular discussion on the question next session rather than deal with it piecemeal just now. He was just as much concerned about the subject as was the hon. member for Springs.

blamed the Government for not taking steps for the destruction of jackals. He also referred to the farm Lambertsbaai, which the department wished to sell. The place had been bought by the Cape Government, but nothing more had been done. There was no grass, but plenty of jackals, whilst a man was paid to look after the farm. The farm should be sold.

remarked that a good deal had been said about the number of officials in his department, but it was found very difficult to carry on the work when leave was granted to any of the officers. Lately one of the officials resigned mainly on account of overwork. (Laughter.) Thirteen assistants had been added to the staff. The idea had been to concentrate the staff at Pretoria, but that was found impracticable. In the Cape the staff was cut down below requirements, and new appointments had to be made. The Land Settlement Act had thrown a great deal of extra work on the department. As to the disposal of land, a considerable amount of work had accumulated in regard to drawing up of deeds. Speaking as a practical farmer, he said that if Government had to clear its ground of noxious weeds the Act would have to be altered. For instance, they could not expect Magistrates to know anything about noxious weeds. As to the Orange River, the Government was responsible for cleaning the bed of that river. From what he could hear, it would mean an enormous amount of work. He was afraid that if they had got to take that in hand now the sum they had on the Estimates would be inadequate. Anyhow, he promised the hon. member that the Government would give its attention to the matter and see what it could do.

continuing in Dutch, said that the question of the Mapochs grounds was a difficult one. The lands had been given after a native war, but owing to there being no legislation in the matter it was impossible to deal with the grounds by regulation. A Bill had, however, been drafted which would be introduced next year. Dealing with the question raised by Mr. Wessels, the Minister said that over 600 people had been placed on the land last year, and 1,700 since Union. The Land Boards answered their purposes excellently, he held. Unfortunately certain restrictions had been laid down in the law which now led to the charge of red tape being levelled against the department. With regard to the question of water prospecting, he could tell members that his predecessors had gone into the question and it had been found that the results did not justify the continuation of this prospecting and that it was best for the Government to deal with the matter itself. He intended, personally, to visit Kuruman and the Kalahari when he would see whether it was possible to go in for settlement schemes there. Touching on the remarks of the hon. member for Vryheid, it might be that some question had been pending for a long time, as he knew that the Natal Land Board did not often meet. He would, however, go into the specific cases mentioned. The Land Boards as a whole, however, answered their purposes excellently. The survey costs in the case of Mr. Ferreira had turned out to be higher than anticipated.

said the hon. member for Von Brandis (Mr. Nathan) had asked him a question with reference to the stands held by the Government and had asked why they did not pay municipal rates. That was a matter he would have to consider in conjunction with the Provincial Council. Those stands were not subject to the taxes. The hon. member for Springs (Mr. Madeley) had asked him as to the general condition of the settlements. In spite of all the drawbacks, droughts, etc., the condition of those settlements was very favourable. Taking them as a whole, the settlers had done very well indeed. They had had good crops and their prospects were much more favourable than they were last year.

answering the hon. member for Boshof said that as soon as the number of applications would warrant the cost of sending bores to the various districts, such would he done. So far only two applications had been received from Boshof. With regard to Mr. Smith a Bill would be introduced in the House next year.

said it was not true that people became impoverished after having bored for water. There was one case where a man had been driven off the land without having been given a chance. What they wanted was not help, but more time. From the very day this question had been introduced the heads of departments had been opposed to the Water Boring Act. Eight or nine people at least had been driven off the ground, but people had never come to the Government for assistance. Nearly everyone had succeeded in finding water. They were not poor people who were seeking for water, because boring was an expensive business. The people were simply ordered off.

replied that the experience was that people lost all their money in prospecting for water. That was really the fault of the Government, who themselves ought to do that work. The Government were not justified in allowing the people to remain on the ground for a longer period than one year.

replying to the hon. member for Zululand, in English, said that this matter had been under consideration by the Land Board, who recommended that the Government should give out the land on the system of mixed farming. Several applications were made for erecting mills. His difficulty was that as soon as he tried to deal with the land he was up against the Native Affairs Department, who expressed the opinion that the land which was between two large native reserves should not be touched until the report of the Commission had been received. He (the Minister) was inclined to deal with the land, but the last time he attempted to do so there was an emphatic protest from the Native Affairs Department.

The vote was agreed to.

Vote 36, Deeds Offices, £28,399, was agreed to.

On vote 37, Surveyors-General, £51,984,

said he wished to complain of the delay experienced in the inspection and examination of maps and charts of farms. As a result of this delay farmers, who might have taken up money on their farms, suffered much damage, because, whilst they had to pay interest on the money, they could not make use of the farms.

complained of the delay in the preparing of maps and deeds of transfer. The lands at Embokotwa were sold two years ago. The deeds and plans were sent to Pretoria, but the owners had heard nothing since.

urged a similar point.

was understood to reply that the questions raised would receive his attention. (The delay in inspecting the plans would not occur again, and the request of the hon. member for Wodehouse would be inquired into.

The vote was agreed to.

urged the Minister to have a dam constructed on the Olifant’s River. If they had a dam there much benefit would be derived by the people who at present were suffering great hardships. The ground along the Gamtoos River also was extremely fertile, as fertile as the ground in the Oudtshoorn district. If a good dam was built there the Eastern Province would benefit very considerably. The scheme might cost about £150,000, which would prove an excellent investment. The dam should be constructed at Toverwaterpoort.

urged that information in regard to irrigation should be circulated free of charge among farmers. If that were done farmers might be placed in a position to avail themselves of the advantages of the Irrigation Act. The people in his district wished to undertake irrigation work, but they complained they could not get sufficient information from the department. His district had suffered severely from the drought, and the people wanted to make a start in conserving the water.

asked for information regarding the Hart’s River irrigation scheme. The people wanted to know what Government was going to do with regard to the Vaal River in the way of irrigation. He was informed that there was not sufficient water to carry out the irrigation scheme Government had in contemplation at Douglas. He would like to know what number of irrigation schemes there were along the Vaal River, the quantity of water that was being pumped out, and the conditions.

said he would like to know whether anything had been done with regard to the question of boring operations undertaken on behalf of the Provincial Administrations. He submitted that the Provincial Administrations should be charged with the cost of this work. He would like some information in reference to an item of £400 grant-in-aid to the South African Irrigation Association. He would also like some information as to the progress of irrigation at Douglas. Perhaps the Minister would be able to give him some information in reference to the vote for the Meteorological Branch, which cost about £7,088.

said he did not wish to be understood as objecting to expenditure on irrigation as long as it was reasonably required for the country. He noticed an item of boring for farmers, costs of drills, £18,600, and also boring for Government Departments, costs of drills, £10,200. He would like to know how much of this was reproductive, and how much revenue was obtained for the services rendered to private individuals.

said that there had been an increase in the vote for boring done for farmers on account of the increased demands made on the department from various quarters. The work done for farmers was paid for at the rate of £4 per day. This rate just about managed to pay working expenses. In reply to the hon. member for Capo Town, Central, he might say that the water at Douglas was now sufficient. The furrow had been extended and they were able to deal with the land in the proper way.

Have you given out the lots?

Oh, yes. We have given out some lots, and I may say that the settlers there are doing very well now. Proceeding, he said, in reply to the hon. member for Barkly, that the Government had had the Harts River scheme under their consideration. For the past twelve months surveying had been going on: and it would take some time before the scheme was completed. They hoped in twelve months’, time to, have a properly worked out scheme which they would be able to place before the House. As to the irrigation work generally on the Vaal River, it was difficult to give information off-hand, but he would ascertain what amount of irrigation was going on, and inform the hon. member. Continuing in Dutch, the Minister said that the question of publication of information had been raised by the hon. member for Marico. The department was doing whatever it could, and was dealing with requests. As to the question of plans being made that was also being done by the department at the lowest possible cost. Of course, that was done mainly to give people an idea as to what the cost of the scheme would be and to give them a general guide.

said that there were several points which the Minister had not dealt with. He had asked, for instance, about the Meteorological Department.

said that there was an increase in this vote principally caused by the provision of additional computers.

said that the Minister had not dealt with the question of charging Provincial Administrations for water boring undertaken on their behalf. The various Administrations should, he urged, be charged for these services as laid down in the Financial Relations Act of last year.

pointed out that the work was done in connection with schools, gaols, etc., without charge.

said that when the work was being done for the Provincial Administration, it should be paid for.

The vote was agreed to.

said he had before him a list of various scales that had been altered in the Estimates as compared with last year. A number of maximum salaries had been departed from, and that was not quite fair. In one case, if the maximum salary had been greater, an officer senior to the one who took the appointment would have got the appointment. In some cases that system led to injustices.

drew attention to the steady growth of the expenditure of that department. It had increased since last year by £1,586. The transport items had increased, from £500 to £1,000, although it was not a travelling Commission. There were several other increases. The one department which was established for the purpose of bringing about economy was setting a bad example.

said that, with reference to the last speaker’s point, naturally the committee would understand that the Government had not thought it was their duty to control a Commission which was called upon to control the rest of the service. He did not know that it was an extravagant Commission, but he knew that its activities were expanding. It did more travelling now than had been done in the past. With regard to the question raised by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, it was quite true that throughout the Estimates re-arrangement of scales appeared. The reason was that the Reorganisation Commission which sat some years ago did not cover the whole field, and some matters were left to the Executive to deal with later on. As years went by, there would be fewer and fewer of those cases, because the service would be on a settled basis. The instance given by the hon. member was a very rare one.

The vote was agreed to.

On vote 11, Printing and Stationery, £221,591.

said he wanted to draw attention to the enormous amount of printed matter which was produced, and which very few people read. A good deal of it was not worth reading. He suggested the appointment of somebody in the service to act as an editor, to go through those things and cut them down. They should have the essential facts, and have them quickly. He saw that the Minister was still keeping up that expensive establishment at Pretoria. There was certain work which must be done in Pretoria, but beyond that work, it was essential that they should get their work done in the cheapest possible way.

said he agreed with what the hon. member for Port Elizabeth had said, and said that the Public Accounts Committee had made a recommendation in regard to this matter. The committee recommended a thorough investigation by some competent person. They were told by the Director of the Printing Works that £25,000 a year could be saved.

said that to try and make out that all this extra cost was due to the Government maintaining a certain establishment in Pretoria was drawing the long bow. He (Mr. Sampson) did not know whether Pretoria had not been robbed to a great extent over this matter. Being the administrative capital it was entitled to have all these reports printed there, whether in the Government works or outside. All this work was now being done in Cape Town, and the work at the Government Printing Works was practically confined to railway matters. He thought the Cape people recognised that a bargain was a bargain and should be kept, and he did not think that they would thank hon. members for trying to remove the printing works from Pretoria to Cape Town. The fact was that hon. members were trying to get at £78,881 out of £221,591. He (Mr. Sampson) did not see how they were going to reduce the volume of printing while two languages were used. He thought it would be better if the hon. member for Port Elizabeth brought a practical suggestion before the House.

said he did not see why they should observe the rule that the evidence taken by Commissions should be printed in two languages. People wanted to know what the witness said and not what the translator thought he said, and the evidence should be printed in the language in which it was given. Going through the reports he had noticed an enormous amount of waste, and he wanted to know from the Minister whether it was not possible to obviate this waste. He thought it would be a very mild thing to say that they would be able to save £25,000 a year on the printing vote without reducing a single word printed. He suggested that the Minister should have an inquiry into the matter.

said that the hon. member for Port Elizabeth, Central, had asked whether any steps were going to be taken to go into this question of reducing the cost of printing. He might say that the Government proposed during the recess to go into the question and make alterations which would lead to great savings—the length of reports and so on A great deal of the expense was connected with their Parliamentary work, and this point would also be taken into consideration. He would suggest that at the outset of the next session they should appoint a Select Committee to look after the printing of Parliament. Continuing, he said that the second report of the Select Committee on Public Accounts cost £830, and of this amount £250 was due to acceleration. He might point out that though that report had come before them, nothing had happened to this day. That was a case where £250 had been thrown into the water. He doubted whether it was necessary for them to print the evidence at the enormous length they did in Select Committee reports. Another suggestion had been made to him. Hitherto the Government had followed the system of printing the “Gazette” in both languages, and he was sure a great saving would be effected if it were printed in English and Dutch separately. (Hear, hear.) He pointed out that owing to what had happened in the interim the Government had been unable to tackle a number of these problems during the last recess.

said he was astonished to hear the Minister say that the second report of the Public Accounts Committee had cost £250 extra. It was not necessary. He might have said to the Clerk, “Let us have it as soon as possible,” but no definite time was laid down.

alluded to the stacks of bulky Bluebooks and said that if they were cut down to a quarter of their present size members might be able to glean some information from them. These books might be edited, though the original copy in its entirety could be laid on the Table. If they did this he thought that would save hundreds and thousands of pounds.

said that he hoped the Minister would get the advice of a practical printer on the question.

said he would not say they could save £25,000 a year, but his information was that Treat savings could be effected as the result of a thorough and searching investigation.

suggested that they might drop some of the illustrations in their Bluebooks. Some of them were pretty ludicrous and they would get better illustrations in the illustrated papers. Then why on earth were all the Bills printed in both English and Dutch? Why give him a Bill in Dutch when he, not being a great Dutch scholar, preferred one in English? In the same way why force an English copy upon one who preferred Dutch? It was an abominable nuisance at the present time. “One got interested in a Bill and read down to the bottom of the page to come up against the page of the Dutch version, and then one had to turn the page over to proceed. He did not care whether a man was a Dutchman or an Englishman, but it was most objectionable to have their bilingual sandwiches in that form. Let them have the bread in one place and the cake in another, but don’t let them have a sandwich. (Laughter.) They might talk if they liked about cutting down printing, but he thought they would do no good until they had another depression.

said he hoped the suggestion of Mr. Merriman would not be carried out. Often an amendment was put in English, and if the suggestion was carried out matters would be very awkward for members if they had only the Dutch version of the Bill in front of them.

The vote was agreed to.

On vote 12, Treasury, £40,829.

asked for some information regarding the Bewaarplaatsen. He understood that something was to be done this session in regard to that matter. He also wanted information as to the position with regard to Rhodesia and the Customs Union. Negotiations had been going on, and judging from what one had seen in reference to the North there was some trouble ahead. If the hon. Minister would give some information it would allay a certain amount of fear which existed.

said that he was informed that the members of the Cabinet were going to move from their offices once more from the old Supreme Court Buildings to the buildings they originally occupied. He wanted to know if that were true. The old Supreme Court buildings were altered to accommodate the members of the Cabinet and their various staffs. If it was true that the Cabinet was going back to their old building in Parliament-street he would like to know to whom those buildings belonged. He understood that the Government already possessed certain property in Cape Town which might be utilised. For instance, there was the old Police Court buildings in Burg-street, for which they had received an offer of £7,000, but they had not sold, nor had they utilised the buildings. It appeared that they were going out of the old Supreme Court buildings to allow the Administrator to go in and the Magistrate’s Court was to be removed from Caledon-square. If so, what was to become of the old Caledon-square premises and the old Burg-street premises. Were they to be sold or utilised? He was informed that there was plenty of room in the Post Office Buildings in Adderley-street.

said that certain smaller commercial men and manufacturers asked him to draw attention to a serious state of affairs in regard to the stringency of money at present existing, so far as the banks were concerned, and had put forward a suggestion as to the way in which the Government could assist them. The banks, pointed out the hon. member, were becoming less competitive, and if anything happened in any part credit was immediately restricted owing to the centralisation of the banks throughout the Union. In the old days, when they had local banks, depression was not felt except in the local area itself, for although it would spread throughout the Union it was very gradual. He pointed out that when there were difficulties in Johannesburg people throughout the Union immediately felt the stringency. Credit was restricted, overdrafts were called in, and things were made very difficult for the customers of the bankers.

When we are hard up we can print bank notes.

said he was not suggesting that they should get the money in that ridiculous way, but in a normal fashion. The Government without any further trouble would have a permanent loan of £2,000,000 without interest. In Australia they had issued bank notes to the extent of £9,000,000. The people knew that the Commonwealth assets were behind them, and the Government had the use of that amount without interest. The Minister might also confer with the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs with regard to little postal notes which, if made negotiable, would be kept for a long time without coming back to the Government. Having regard to what had been done in Australia, he thought there was a tremendous amount of sound sense in that suggestion. The banks of this country were private institutions, and had to do their best for their shareholders. It was not their primary duty to develop the resources of the country. They could not look at the matter from the same standpoint as the Government. It was difficult for anybody to get money from them for development, and as soon as there was a crisis in any part of the country credit was restricted throughout the Union, for the banks were practically all one concern. Hundreds of smaller traders and manufacturers felt the pinch in such circumstances. He did not want the Minister to say at once whether he was in favour of the scheme, but he mentioned it so that the Minister might go into it during the recess. He (the speaker) had gone into the matter and was satisfied that it merited great consideration.

said it was evident the hon. member was not a business man, or he would not have made such a proposal. The Australian State Bank did not ease the money tightness in that country, for the bank had been established only a few years and it was not yet known whether it would be a success. It was established largely in order to obtain a forced loan, the other banks being compelled to withdraw their notes. Consequently people had to accept the notes of the State Bank. The South African banks paid a duty on the note issue, had to pay income tax, and also had to deposit security with the Government. As to the tightness of money that existed all over the world. Some of our banks had lent a little more than they would be allowed to do in some parts of the world. In the South African crisis of 1881-3, owing to the liberal advances they made, three or four of the banks became insolvent. If the banks had not followed a very conservative policy in 1903-8 the position here would have been far worse than it was He hoped the Minister would not entertain the proposal to establish a State Bank. The South African banks were doing very useful work; they were out to do business, but naturally they looked at the security that was offered.

said that with regard to bewaarplaatsen the Government had to balance revenue and expenditure this year, but it was unnecessary for him to introduce a Bill this session, and all that it was necessary to do was to pass a Bill during the current financial year, and that the Government intended doing next session. With reference to the Lewis and Marks Building in Parliament-street, he had no special information on the point, but he knew there was a scheme to turn the Administrator’s office at the corner of Wale-street and Queen Victoria-street into a Magistrate’s Court, which was very urgently needed—(hear, hear)—and to shift the Administrator to the Old Supreme Court Buildings, and to remove the Union Government offices back to Lewis and Marks Buildings. But how far the scheme had gone he did not know. The suggested State Bank was rather an academic subject, which he would not like to go into now. The stringency of the money market was very great, not only in South Africa, but all over the world, and we must not— when our needs were great—rush to remedies which might be worse than the evils. The question was a most difficult one especially here, where there were so many economic amateurs. (Laughter.) South Africa, in fact, was in rather a flourishing condition compared with many countries, Canada, for instance. We were probably better off than many countries which made a much greater blare of trumpets than we did, and he thought we might continue on the old paths. The State Bank in Australia was purely experimental, and that being so, he thought we could *

Wait and see.

said there was a movement afoot in Rhodesia to curtail the operations of the present Customs Union in regard to raw products, and not to the manufactured products of the Union. It had nothing to do with the Tariff Bill that Parliament had just passed, but Rhodesia was anxious to restrict the Customs Convention simply to the exchange of raw products. That would raise a very large question indeed. The question was at present but a movement, and it would have to be considered by the Government, but it had not yet reached an official stage.

asked, whether there was any necessity to bring the chief as well as the assistant chief of every department to Cape Town during the session of Parliament? The people in the interior could not get any information in Pretoria, where only clerks remained.

said that in 1887 an Act was passed in the Cape to prevent De Beers forcing goods on their employees in lieu of wages, and it was laid down that all goods sold in the compounds were to be disposed of at cost price. The Government had no return to show that profit-making inside the compounds was not continuing. There was no doubt that £25,000 to £30,000 a year profit must be made by De Beers on the sale inside the compounds. The sum of £35,000 had been given by De Beers for various benevolent purposes. Some people thought this was given out of the ordinary profits of the company, but instead of that, it was disbursed from money obtained on the compound sales He thought there should be some inquiry into the matter. The Government ought to put into full force and effect the law passed in 1887. If there were any money at all made out of this trading, it had been a breach of the law.

said that his him, friend was entirely wrong in regard to this point. He (Mr. Wilcocks) knew how things were conducted in this matter, and, as far us the mine with which he was connected and which he represented was concerned, he could give the House an assurance that not a cent was made out of the natives, in this way. There was no question of the company making any profit at all.

said that what he had quoted was a reply to a question that he put to the Government last year. It was left solely ip the discretion of the chairman as to how profits were disposed of.

said he thought it was a point of some importance that a fair understanding should be come to on this question. He was talking of the mine that he represented. He knew the custom there was to supply the article to the native at the price it cost.

1 am talking, not of the Orange Free State, but of the Cape.

said that when he was in Kimberley, about 1904, he remembered that the Municipal finances were in a very parlous state, and it was then proposed to place a Municipal assessment on Do Boers’ property. This would have brought in about £23,000 or £24,000, and, as an act of grace, the He Beers Co. offered £6,000 a year. A plebiscite of the ratepayers was taken on the question of whether this offer should be accepted, and a system of open voting was carried out under the eye of the general manager of the company.

said, in reply to the hon. member for Rustenburg, that a strong hand was now kept on the question of the migration of officials. With regard to the question of De Beers’ profits, he was sorry he could not give the hon. member any information now. If the hon. member put the question to him at some future date, he would inquire into it. This was all news to him, and very interesting news. (Laughter.)

said he hoped the Minister would make some inquiry into what appeared to be a direct breach of the Cape Act No. 23 of 1887.

The vote was agreed to.

said he did not know whether the Minister was yet in a position to make a definite statement with regard to the appointment of the High Commissioner in London. With regard to the Trades Commissioner in London, this gentleman had not been out here for three or four years, and he thought it would be a good thing if arrangements could be made so that he could pay another visit and get into direct touch with the people here.

That is so. That arrangement will go through in the immediate future.

thought the expense connected with the office of the High Commissioner was too large, especially under the present conditions of the country. The work could just as well be done by an Agent-General. The next High Commissioner would have to do with a salary of less than £3,000. and he hoped the House would agree to reduce the amount by £1,000. The total cost of the department was £28,000.

The vote was agreed to.

said he would like to put a question to the Minister in his capacity as chairman of the Public Debt Commissioners. He found that the Public Debt Commissioners invested last year in Colonial Government stocks other than stocks of South Africa no less than £495,191. It seemed to him a strange thing that, while we were borrowing in London at the rate we had to pay, we should go and lend our money to other Governments. This stock included New South Wales, Queensland, Tasmania, and other stock. Perhaps the Minister would give some explanation of this. It appeared to him (Mr. Jagger) that it would have been a much better policy to have invested this half-million of money in Government stocks here.

said that if his hon. friend would look at the figures he would see this extraordinary fact, that the Public Debt Commissioners paid more for the stock of other countries than they paid for our own. It would have paid them to have bought our own stock rather than the stock of other countries. As far as he could make out, this was an old tradition and a bad tradition, which had gone on and was still going on. If they were buying stock they did not want to nurse other people’s stock, and leave their own stock to be nursed by anybody else.

said he took the contrary view. The funds of their Savings Bank and other money were put into the hands of the Public Debt Commissioners for investment. He thought it; was sound business for them to buy a certain amount of stock outside this country. There might be a run on the Savings Bank, not through a panic, but because the people wanted the money, and the Public Debt Commissioners would have to realise on that stock. It was sound business to have a certain amount of stock of other countries so that they would not be bound to sell their own stock.

said the Public Debt Commissioners held funds of the Railway Department, which might come upon them at any time for money for railway construction, and then they would have to realise. It would be foolish to put the whole of their funds into their own stock. He thought there was a great safety in having a certain amount of distribution.

said they must have dropped on their investments a large amount of money as would be seen when they compared the prices that had been paid with the prices of to-day.

said he thought it was possible to foresee the needs of the department they were acting as trustee for, and he thought it ought to be possible to get along without investing in stocks of other countries. He believed that was a peculiarity of their own and that it was not done by other countries. With regard to a possible run on their bank, that was a thing which was very exceptional.

said it had been customary before the Public Debt Commissioners started looking after the public debts to make the investments. Under the Old Crown Colony scheme they had continued to buy stock. As a general rule he agreed that all other things being equal, they might buy their own stock. He thought those matters were not due altogether to the Public Debt Commissioners, but had been worked by other agencies.

said that before it had been possible for anyone who came along with a couple of hundred pounds to get a Treasury Bill. He understood that had been stopped altogether.

said those Bills were now being retailed to the public through the Post Office.

Does that pass through the Public Debt Commissioners?

No.

The vote was agreed to.

On vote 15, Pensions, £454,266.

asked what was the meaning of the items for new allowances, £4,000.

said that was the amount they annually voted as the result of the activities of the Pension Committee. A part of the House’s time every day was occupied with petitions which went to the Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities, and that was the net result.

The vote was agreed to.

On vote 16, Provincial Administrations, £2,520,558.

said he wished to raise the question of free services given to the Provincial Administrations. As far as could be ascertained no services rendered to the Provincial Administration were charged for, and according to the Financial Relations Act they should be charged for.

asked for information as to the personnel of the Commission with regard to the question of local finance generally. If there was going to be a Commission, the sooner it was appointed the better.

asked the Minister what sort of control, if any, he exercised over those remarkable bodies (the Provincial Councils.) (Laughter.) It was impossible to close their eyes to the fact that in the North there was some serious trouble brewing. Some fantastic things were being done in the Council there. He hoped the Minister would not be frightened by the thunder and would exercise proper control. They had departed from the intentions of the Act of Union. They were becoming an almost intolerable burden upon the finances of this country, and they were being diverted into Parliaments which went a great deal further than Parliament itself did. Most extraordinary doctrines were being laid down and carried out, and if that was not checked it would lead to difficulties such as were taking place in the Transvaal. There was not a sufficiently firm grip kept upon them. In the Cape they had the head of the Provincial Council going round in a sort of crusade trying to destroy the Divisional Councils. It was always intended that those functionaries should be more or less under the control of the Central Administration, but he hoped the Central Administration would not agree to the Divisional Councils being destroyed. The Divisional Council system in the Cape was the most valuable attempt at local government they had got, and if it were extended to the whole of the Union it would be a good thing. The very root of local government was to make people responsible for their own expenditure in certain directions and help them if they were going well, but they should not allow them to get all sorts of benefits without paying for them.

Lightly, the Minister of Finance had induced them to pass the Financial Relations Bill; but that Bill was going to be one of the most ruinous things that was ever passed in this country so far as the finances of the country wore concerned. Besides that they wore setting up several local Parliaments. He excepted the case of Natal, which seemed to be doing its duty. “Happy the country that had no history!” These Parliaments were setting out to make history, and they were doing it in the Transvaal and he feared for the Capo Colony that they would have trouble in the future. If they were going to have those divergent systems of government in various parts of the country they would land themselves into difficulties before long. He hoped the hon. Minister would take a more serious view of that matter, for upon him more than upon anybody else rested the responsibility for the things which were taking place at the present time.

said it was deliberately laid down in the Act of Union that the Provincial Councils should be legislative bodies. It would be all right to allow those bodies to go on as originally intended, provided the finances were put on a proper footing. The danger of the success of the Provincial Council system was not in the machinery set up by the Act of Union so much as by retaining the arrangements which had been made to finance those things. He had an inside view of what was taking place in the Cape, and was alarmed for the Divisional Councils. The Administrator was simply dangling a little purse in front of the Divisional Councils and showing them how to save money by falling in with his schemes, but he could only carry them out by putting his hands into the pockets of the Union. He (the speaker) wanted to warn the Minister that unless the financial basis of the Provincial Councils was put on a different footing they would be giving an enterprising Administrator a blank cheque for 10s. in the £ for all he spent, and he could go round dangling that 10s. in front of the local authorities right through his Province and tempting them into schemes which they would be sorry they had gone in for in the long run.

said that the right hon. gentleman the member for Victoria West was annoyed because the Transvaal Provincial Council was somewhat progressive. The right hon. gentleman would like the Provincial Councils to first go to him with their Ordinances to see which he would like them to pass.

I wish they would.

said that in a measure he agreed with the hon. member for Cape Town, Gardens in that the Financial Relations Bill was largely responsible for the quagmire in which they found themselves. He was quite prepared to support the idea that the Provincial Councils should find all their own money then they would know where they were. He was quite sure that the Transvaal Provincial Council would not object to that state of affairs. The hon. member went on to move the reduction of the salary of the Administrator of the Transvaal by £500, his reason being that he did not think the Administrator of the Transvaal had got a true conception of his position, or a true conception of the duties he was supposed to perform. He was doing his utmost in season and out of season to baulk the wishes of the majority of the representatives in that Council. Whatever the majority of the Transvaal Council did the executive officer should give effect to. He should not rush off to get, support from others in a position to give him support in order to baulk that majority. Ordinance after Ordinance had been passed and rendered null and ineffective by one man—the Caesar of the Transvaal. When they tried in the Provincial Council to bring into effect the wishes of the electors the Administrator disappeared and equally suddenly reappeared in the lobby of the House of Assembly in earnest and close consultation with the Czar of the Union?

Who is the Czar of the Union?

If the hon. member did not know, he did not think it was his duty to enlighten him. Concluding, the hon. member said that because the position was most anomalous and was impossible, and the Transvaal Administrator was proving himself as one not desirous of carrying out democratic government, and was a reactionary of the worst type, who was assisted by an autocratic Government, he (Mr. Madeley) moved that the vote be reduced.

said that the right hon. member for Victoria West ought not to think what he would do now, but what be had done then. The Provincial Councils had been set up as little parliaments, and the idea had been that these institutions would be set out on non-party lines, and that the Executive would be a non-party body. That had been a beautiful theory, but how had they carried it out in practice? As soon as the Executive had been elected, the Government had appointed purely party men as Administrators. Whatever blame they might place on somebody or other, it had to be placed on the original constitution of these bodies. Continuing, he said that the Transvaal was trying to raise its own Provincial revenue, and had supplied an answer to his right hon. friend the member for Victoria West. If they had adopted the principle that the Provincial Councils should be entirely responsible for raising their own revenue they would have had to curtail their functions to a larger extent. It would have meant that the Provincial Councils would have had to put a heavy tax on the land and he Had not been prepared to see the Provincial Councils burdened at the outset of their career, which burden would have been placed on them if they had had to tax land at the outset. He did hope that the Government, in exercising the control it had over the Provincial Councils, would look at any Ordinances that came before them for review on their merits, and not from any party point of view, for it would be an unfortunate thing if, for the reason that a Provincial Council had a majority who were a minority in Parliament, any Ordinance that they passed should be vetoed. After all, the Provincial Council of the Transvaal had been elected by the people of the Transvaal, and it was well that the people of the Transvaal should have a taste of what their Provincial Council could do for them. Unless the laws which were sent up were ultra vires or wildly out of reason, he did not think they should be vetoed.

said that he would urge upon the Government not to delay too long as regards the appointment of the Commission, for another reason. They had at present a most undesirable state of affairs, when they had one Province competing with another in the selection of teachers. (Hear, hear.) A teacher was called to another Province by being offered a higher salary. They were not going to get satisfaction and contentment among their teachers unless they knew how they stood, and they knew what the relative position of a teacher in the Cape Province was as against the teacher in the North. Referring to the proposed Cape Province Divisional Council Ordinance, he said that, to a large extent and almost wholly by the country districts, the view expressed by the right hon. member for Victoria West was shared, that what was being attempted by the Provincial Administration of the Cape Province was going to undermine local government, and was tending to extravagance. Let them look at the extravagance with which they were building hospitals. (Hear, hear.)

And we have not got sufficient accommodation yet.

went on to say that if Worcester built a hospital Ceres wanted one, and when Ceres built a hospital Tulbagh wanted one, and when one is required three or four are built. This extravagant way of building hospitals would be a burden on the people.

said that, as to what the hon. member had said about the construction of hospitals, the question was, was a hospital necessary at Ceres? and, if so, they were entitled to one. Because they had not had a hospital in days gone by, that was no reason why they should not have one now. The right hon. member for Victoria West had shown his usual violent hostility towards the Provincial Councils, which was only equalled by his hostility to Socialism. The Provincial Council was elected by the same electors as elected the right hon. member. The Provincial Councils were coming along now with a more progressive policy, and the right hon. member ought to welcome them with both hands, instead of showing such hostility towards them. Was anything which the Transvaal Provincial Council had done contrary to the Act of Union?

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

said that, by the passing of the Local Authorities Rating Ordinance, the Transvaal Provincial Council had been assisting the views of the Minister of Finance. Was the Minister of Finance prepared to recommend the Governor-General to sanction that Ordinance, which allowed municipalities to say whether they would institute a tax on site values only or not?

said there were some members of the Union Parliament who were opposed to Provincial Councils, and they were urging the difficulties of the Transvaal Council as an excuse for the abolition of the Provincial Councils. But there was a stagnation of business in the Union Parliament, and many people who looked to this House for remedies were sadly disappointed, and hoped they would be able to obtain redress from the smaller bodies. As for the Labour Party in the Transvaal Provincial Council having a majority of only one, the Government of Australia had been carried on for the past eighteen months or two years by the Speaker’s vote. If the majority of the Labour Party in the Transvaal Provincial Council were four or five, that party could get only two seats on the Executive Committee, by means of the present system of election, and as there were four members of the Executive Committee, with the Administrator as Chairman, his vote was equal to eleven members of the Council. The Labour Party had tried to find a way out of the difficulty by having Select Committees to carry on the government of the Transvaal. Now the responsibility rested on the Union Government to find some way out of the deadlock, for which the party he had the honour to belong in the Transvaal was not responsible. The only way to remove the difficulty was to have the Administrators elected by the Provincial Councils. Too much power had been given to the Administrators.

said that, under section 5 of the Act of Union, the Provincial Councils had been given power by direct taxation to raise revenue and to borrow money—in fact, they were given all the powers of a Parliament The Parliamentary Procedure Act of 1912 went further, for it gave power to the Provincial Councils for special private legislation. There appeared to be an attack on the Administrators generally—in fact, according to to-day’s paper, a Free State judge had described the action of the Administrator of the Orange Free State as that of a Czar. (Laughter.)

Everybody admitted that the Cape Administrator was a most capable man. Under the regime of the right hon. gentleman during the strenuous years from 1908 onwards he had office as Colonial Secretary. The right hon. gentleman now criticised his own successful pupil. Mr. Brown commended the work done by the Administrator in this Province on behalf of education and hospitals. He spoke of the value of the Divisional Council system, and said he thought the Government should bring in a Bill for the establishment of Divisional Councils or some other local body all over the country. He could not understand the hon. member for Greyville describing Divisional Councils as an antiquated body. The system, he thought, was one of the grandest the Cape had ever had

And it is being destroyed now.

said he did not know whether it was being destroyed or not If they were going to try and get 10s. in the £ from Government, he thought they were quite right. He only hoped and trusted that the Provincial Councils would be given a fair trial.

said he was surprised at the attitude taken up by his hon. friend (Mr. Brown). Clause 5 of the Financial Relations Act provided that for every £1 expended by the Provincial Council, £1 was also contributed by the community generally. What they complained of was that the Administrator wanted to get the Divisional Councils to surrender their rating power into his hands und then the Provincial Council should rate and he should have the privilege of paying it out. He (Mr. Jagger) thought that was a monstrous proposition. How could they think that under circumstances of that kind the Divisional Councils were going to maintain their position? He believed that the Administrator of the Cape was the biggest enemy of local government we had got in South Africa to-day. certainly in the Cape Province. He wanted to concentrate the whole power into his hands as far as possible, as some of the municipalities, he (Mr. Jagger) could say from his own knowledge, had found quite recently. With regard to schools, could the hon. member for Three Rivers point to a single school which would not have been put up if there had been no Administrator at all. With regard to hospitals, did his hon., friend want two hospitals in a place or district where one would do? That was what he understood the hon. member for Worcester objected to. There were more hospitals in the Cape Peninsula today than were absolutely required.

He thought the Provincial Councils had been, comparatively speaking, a failure. He blamed the Government in some degree for the position we were in to-day. He thought it was disclosing no secret when he said that in the Convention it was intended that these Provincial Councils should be non-party bodies. They had before them at the time the example of the Free State Volksraad. At the head of affairs in the shape of the Administrator was to be a high official. That, he thought, was in the minds of the majority. Some high official was to be appointed who would be a sort of wing or servant of the Union Government. What did the Government do? As soon as Union came about a strict party man was appointed in every case.

No.

At any rate, most assuredly in our own Province, a gentleman belonging to the party of the Minister of Finance and his colleagues was appointed.

Not in Natal.

I have left Natal out of consideration. It was so in the Cape, and I think I can say the same of the Free State and also of the Transvaal. Proceeding, he said he hoped that the Government would without further delay appoint this Commission to go into the whole matter. The present state of affairs could not continue He would support what had been said by his hon. friend the member for, Fordsburg in regard to the Ordinance passed by the Transvaal Provincial Council. As long as the Ordinance was intra vires, be thought the Government would have to be extremely careful. It might be that the majority in that Council held extreme views, but, after all, they had been elected by the people of the Transvaal. No party could find its level until it had been tried. If the Government did not accept the position, they would simply strengthen the Labour Party. The theories preached by that party had never been tried and, so long as they had been elected by the people, they ought to be given a trial. If their theories were found to be of grievous damage to the State and to the Transvaal, so much sooner would they got a change.

acknowledged the sound, constitutional position which the hon. member took up, though he (Mr. Creswell) had entirely different anticipations as to what the, results of such a change would be Their contention was that the Administrator should be the chief Executive officer. The hon. member had told them that when the Provincial Councils were decided upon by the Convention it was on the understanding that they Should be non-party bodies. There were other faults in connection with the result of the deliberations of the Convention which he (the speaker) might find fault with, but that was a striking instance of the work of a National Convention which did not have every political party represented. The situation in the Transvaal Provincial Council involved serious considerations. The hon. member for Three Rivers had said that the Provincial Councils were instituted as a sop to Natal. They were put forward as a measure of Provincial self-government, in order to reassure people of the various Provinces that they were not going to hand over all their affairs to the central Parliament, and keep no control over their own affairs themselves. Had it not been for that guarantee Union would never have been agreed to. That being the case, surely when they had a position such as that which had arisen in the Transvaal, it was a topic which they had a right to discuss in that House, and they were right in moving, as his hon. friend had moved, for the reduction of the salary of the Administrator, who was not fulfilling his functions as Administrator, but rather doing what he (the speaker) saw from this evening’s paper, was being done by another Administrator, who was described by the judge as a Czar. He had even heard the same name applied to the Administrator of the Cape Colony. They had a majority in the Transvaal Council, but were unable to elect more than two members on the Executive. That would not matter very much, but they had an avowedly party Administrator there. The proper working of the Provincial Council system must depend upon the wisdom with which the Administrator exercised his authority and the peculiar functions entrusted to him. It was not the business of an Administrator to be anything more than the chief executive officer. He should not be an avowed partisan, but the present Administrator looked upon himself as the officer appointed to determine the policy of a Council composed of the elected representatives of the people. Were those Administrators not appointed to use their positions to soften difficulties and try to get the machine to work, or were they going to be the determining factors? If the latter, what was the use of having an elected body?

You will have to alter the law.

Possibly. After all, he proceeded, the Provincial Council system was in its infancy and the system depended upon the way in which the Administrators exercised their functions. The constitutional principle was that the elected representatives of the people should determine the policy. Would the people of Natal agree that the Administrator of the Province should under certain circumstances be allowed to have one policy and with the help of a minority in the Council, of say four or five, govern the Council?

He did not think the people of Natal would agree to that, nor did he think the people of the O.F.S. would either. He understood there was a new, party in the Free State which had recently seen the light and was antagonistic to the present one:

How do you know?

I have seen it in the newspapers, and, further, if I may say so, I have seen not easily mistakable signs in this. Parliament that there is another Free State Party. Supposing they had that party in the minority of two or three, the Administrator might possibly govern the Province as the Administrator in the Transvaal was trying to do. The Labour Party in the Council there was in a majority, and they decided that if they could not have a majority on the Executive they would set themselves up as an Opposition and go to work in an ordinary constitutional way in order to gain their object. The Administrator should have foreseen that position and should have said that he would not use his casting vote in that committee. Were the Administrator’s actions those of an executive officer, or did they recall the actions of a partisan?

In the last Provincial Council of the Transvaal, Select Committees had been appointed which sat at various places when the Council was not sitting, but the chief executive officer had found no fault with this position at all. As soon as the Labour Party, however, had introduced an Ordinance which would mean that a Select Committee would have to sit while the Council were not sitting, the Administrator hunted up the Attorney-General, who said that that was ultra vires. The action of the Administrator did not look to him (Mr. Creswell) as that of merely an executive officer. The Governor-General-in-Council had to give his assent to Ordinances, but they all knew that the Governor-General-in-Council received recommendations from the Administrator. Why had the Governor-General-in-Council disallowed the rating of site values? In the present law was it not compulsory for municipalities to rate both land and buildings, and why was it not equally proper to rate land only? One of the biggest scandals existing in that country was the way in which certain people evaded municipal taxation—particularly in the Transvaal. They did not refrain from rating a manufactory established in Cape Town Why, the people of the Transvaal asked, should those wide areas of land which were quite available for buildings, be exempt merely because they happened to be mining property, and why did they get off merely with the rating of a few houses? The Rating Ordinance would remedy that to some extent. As the Constitution had been drawn up, certain functions were given to the Provincial Council, and surely there was no sufficient reason for the disallowing of such an Ordinance merely because a Ministry disagreed with the principle. It was not for them to decide. When they on the cross-benches had brought, up certain matters they had been rebuked for interfering with the business of the Provincial Council, but here, as soon as the Transvaal Provincial Council did something which jarred the Government’s political susceptibilities—it was not their business to allow their political prejudices to prevent the people of the Transvaal from getting their own desires— they found the Governor-General-in-Council disallowing that Ordinance. If they (the Provincial Council of the Transvaal) were wrong—and he did not think they were— the people of the Transvaal would put it right in their own good time. The Minister knew that the principle of the Ordinance was no new one, and had been applied in many countries. In no case where a municipality had taken that principle up had it reverted to the old state of things. If that sort of thing was to go on and the Administrator was to use his position giving expression to his own political views and not those of the Council, the Council became a mere sham. It was going back on their word and substituting by the Administrator’s act what ought really to be local self-government. If, in the course of time, it was decided that the Provincial Council system could be substituted by something else, all right, but at the present time the position was that the people of the various Provinces had accepted the Provincial Councils at the time as a guarantee that in certain directions they should have the direction of their own affairs, and that settlement, that guarantee, was being jeopardised by the action of the Transvaal Administrator.

said he was not a believer in the divine right of the majority, which very often went a long way out of the road, more especially when it began to vote the money of the minority into its own pockets—(laughter)—as it was trying to do in this case. Why should twenty-three men be able to vote money out of the pockets of twenty-two men? What would be the position of twenty-three men against twenty-two if they had rifles in their hands? (Laughter.) This fetish of the divine right of the majority would fade into the limbo of forgotten things like the divine right of kings and popes. (Laughter.) The taxation of site values would be all right so long as it was exercised only by the ratepayers.

said that the rates were paid by the tenants and not by the landlords. He denied the statement of the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, that there were too many hospitals. He had known cases of men, sick unto death, actually having to sit on the steps of the Court House waiting for a vacant bed in the hospital. The talk about there being too many hospitals was twaddle. As a matter of fact there was not half enough hospital accommodation. With regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Worcester he (Mr. Madeley) hoped that the Cape teachers would continue to “vamoose ” until the authorities realised their responsibility to them. He hoped that primary education would remain under the control of the Provincial Councils until there had been a levelling up of teachers’ salaries and absolutely tree primary and secondary education.

You don’t know what you are talking about. (Laughter.)

We’re not now living in the thirteenth century.

Wake up!

What century did Jack Cade live in? (Laughter.)

said the Administrator in the Free State was now made out to be a Czar. In the past few years a good deal had been said about the abolition of the Provincial Councils. He could understand this in the Cape, where useful work was being done by Divisional Councils: The same position did not prevail in other Provinces. These other Provinces, however, realised that they required some local authority to deal with provincial matters. The so-called “Tsar of Russia ” of the Free State was much appreciated in the Free State, because it was felt that that gentleman was always aiming to do what was the best for the Free State. If they saw the measures passed during this session of Parliament they would realise the necessity for a local body, because if the Free State bad to wait for something to be done (by this Parliament they might have to wait eternally. The Free State Provincial Council had done excellent work in educational matters, so that to-day no one could speak of 10,000 or 15,000 children in the Free State receiving no education. Further, that Council had done excellent work towards the destruction of vermin. Seeing what that Council had done, he hoped everyone would feel that the Free State would never agree to the abolition of the Provincial Councils.

said he was sorry that the hon. member for Umlazi should have announced his intention of voting against the motion for the reduction of the salary of the Administrator in the Transvaal. If ever a protest should be made, he thought it was in this case. There had undoubtedly been an unwarranted interference with the rights of Provincial Councils, and he did not understand any hon. member from Natal not being glad to support the motion. They found in this case that because the majority in a Province were totally and absolutely against the Government, that Government was prepared to interfere with the will of the people. The day might come at any time when the Natal Provincial Council would be in direct opposition to the wishes of the present Government, and they might get exactly the same interference as they saw to-day in the Transvaal. The hon. member added that he would like to ask the Minister if he would give them any idea as to what the Government’s policy was with reference to education?

said that he did not intend to support the motion for the reduction of the Administrator’s salary. He hoped that the Government, in considering Ordinances sent up to them by the Provincial Councils, would not be actuated by a party spirit in deciding whether those Ordinances should be assented to or vetoed. When they heard all this talk about interfering with the rights of the Council by the Administrator of the Transvaal, he must say he had heard no evidence in support of that. What the Administrator had done had been in execution of the duties entrusted to him under the Act of Union. He had not heard any facts adduced to show that the Administrator had gone outside the four corners of the Act of Union. The hon. member added that he had no sympathy with the present objects of the majority in the Transvaal Provincial Council in trying to alter the constitution of the Provincial Councils, and make them something entirely different from what the Act of Union decided.

said that the attitude of the hon. member for Fordsburg seemed to be on a par with what they so frequently complained about: that the party with which he was associated did not give practical effect in Parliament to their declarations in the country. He (Mr. Creswell) had never affirmed that the Administrator was acting illegally. What he did affirm was that he was not acting in accordance with the spirit of the Provincial Council Constitution. He was determining the policy of the Council. The hon. member had said that he was against government by Select Committee. It was not a question of what the hon. member agreed with or disagreed with. The question was: did the people of the Transvaal and their elected representatives wish to maintain a tighter hold over the doings of the Executive through the Select Committees of the Provincial Council? He could see nothing unconstitutional in that.

said that in his remarks he had expressly stated that, when a law was intra vires, even though it might be extreme, it represented the views of the majority. He could not assent to the idea that the Provincial Councils should have their policies determined by Select Committees.

said that the hon. member for Fordsburg had based his argument on the idea that the action of the majority in the Transvaal Provincial Council was unconstitutional. He (Mr. Creswell) looked with profound respect upon any opinion given by an Attorney-General, but surely there were higher authorities in the land than the Attorney-General.

said the time had arrived to bring the matter to a close. He did not want to go into the whole subject. The whole question of the position of the Provincial Council had been raised in the debate, but he did not think it would serve any useful purpose to prolong the discussion. He was sorry that the debate had to so large an extent turned to an attack on two Administrators, two very able officers who were trying to do their best according to their lights. One had been called by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, the greatest enemy of local government in the Cape. He (the Minister) regretted that, and thought that the hon. member did not do himself justice, taking into consideration his position in the country, by committing himself to epithets of that character. After all, the Administrator of the Cape was backed up in the proposal he was making by several members of his hon. friend’s own party. The hon. member must bear in mind that it was not a question for the Administrator merely, but for fifty wise and good men. Surely the hon. member would not say that those men were merely putty in the hands of the Administrator. The time was not ripe for them to go into the whole matter now. The view expressed in that House would have the opposite effect from what was expected, for the people who were attacked would get their backs up. The Administrator of the Transvaal had been compared to himself as an autocrat. He had been called a party man, but of all the men in his (the Minister’s) knowledge and experience there was no man in South Africa to whom he would less apply the description of a partisan than the Administrator of the Transvaal. He was essentially a non-party man, and everybody in the Transvaal knew it. The hon. members on the cross-benches in theory were advocates of the doctrine of proportional representation, but when they got a chance to put their doctrines into practice by electing two members on the Executive, they preferred to stand out.

What difference would it make? We want justice.

said he could assure them that they would get justice, if not to-day, to-morrow. Justice was coming all the time, if not to-day, then to-morrow. (Ministerial cheers.) It was a friend of the members on the cross-benches who introduced party politics into the Provincial Council, and that in an extremely bitter spirit, with the result, of course, that what appeared to be a deadlock arose. The deadlock had not actually arisen, and he was hopeful that things would not come to the worst. The situation in the Transvaal was, in his opinion, extremely serious, and within the next few months might become far more serious still, and it might be that Parliament would have to pronounce in the near future on the issues which had been raised in the House. Let them hope that things would not come to the worst and that the troubles might pass away. Members on the cross-benches had far more experience in politics than their friends in the Transvaal, and he hoped they would give them the benefit of their wise counsel.

In reality, the present attack was against the Union Government. It had been said that this subtle legal doctrine of ultra vires with regard to Provincial Ordinances had been discovered in order to baulk the Labour Party in the Transvaal. The Minister went on to deny this, and explained that the present procedure followed by the Governor General-in-Council in considering Provincial Ordinances had prevailed from the very start of Union. It had been said, continued the Minister, that where an Ordinance was intra vires the Government should not advise his Excellency to vote it merely on the ground of policy. With that view he (the Minister) almost entirely agreed, and one could not mention a stronger instance than what had happened within the last few weeks, when the Municipal Elections Ordinance was produced for sanction. He had never seen a law more repugnant to his feelings, a law dangerous in the extreme. (Ministerial, cheers.) He was told by one of the most competent men in the Transvaal, who did not belong to the Minister’s political party, that in not many years they would see in the Transvaal such a system of Tammany as had never been seen. (Ministerial and Opposition cheers and Labour dissent.) He looked upon that Ordinance with abhorrence, because he knew the people of the Transvaal were going to suffer under it. The advice of the lawyers was that it was intra vires, and it was accepted, and criminals and all the other elect of society would vote. The Central Gaol, Pretoria would send a representative to the Pro vincial Council, “if we allow the election to take place in the gaol,” added the Minister, and so on. In dealing with those Ordinances they acted on legal advice, which they were bound to follow, and even when an Ordinance seemed most impolitic, it was sometimes well to let the people see the effects of the counsels of their representatives. In regard to the Rating Ordinance, the hon. member for Jeppe went wrong. It had not been disallowed, but it had been reserved for fuller consideration, and when Parliament let them off, and they could turn their attention to it, he would promise he would go into that question.

Ultra vires?

Oh, yes, there are things which are ultra vires in it; but, never mind, I am not dealing with that now. Proceeding, the Minister said it had been reserved because the Ordinance dealt with something entirely novel in that country, and required more time and attention devoted to it than they had been able to give it. He did not want to say anything further on that subject, nor did he think it was advisable to prolong that discussion. He had made no attack whatever on the Labour Party. He admitted that they were people who acted up to their lights. Human nature would get into the right channels if you gave it lime enough.

A word about the Local Government Commission. Of course, the Commission must be appointed. That was one of the conditions on which the Financial Relations Act had been passed. Now the position was that that Act had been in force only from April 1st of last year, so that it had been in operation for little more than a year. Now the question with him, as he had stated on a former occasion, was, was it wise to appoint that Commission too soon, because circumstances changed so rapidly in that country, and if that Commission was appointed too soon, before they arrived at the end of the four years they might have the Commission’s report, and they might have its recommendations— with an entirely new position. Hon. members would see how changes were taking place in the Cape, and the revolutionary changes in the Transvaal within the space of a few months. They ought to have two years’ experience of the Provincial Council working under the new system before they set into operation the working of the Commission. He did not think they ought to be in too great a hurry. He did not think it would take a long time for them to come to a conclusion, and he did not think that that body should be appointed before next year. Hon. members must bear in mind that it was an extremely difficult matter, and he could not conceive of a more difficult matter—the whole system of local government in South Africa—Divisional Councils or County Councils—and he warned hon. members that, unless they got the most competent Commissioners, no great weight would be attached to the recommendations of the Commission. They almost required a Convention to deal with these matters. He humbly submitted to hon. members that he did not think that the time had come to appoint that Commission yet.

Now for the question of education. The South Africa Act entrusted the question of education to the Provinces for five years, and thereafter until Parliament should otherwise determine. It was not a definite period limited to five years. Unless some catastrophe happened which forced Parliament to step in within the period fixed by the Financial Relations Act, he was sure that Parliament was not going to interfere during the running of that Act. The Financial Relations Act would run till April, 1917. If the Provincial Councils ran their course smoothly Parliament would not interfere with their administration or education during that period. If Parliament did, he did not see what was left for the Provincial Councils; and their great task was to look after education. (Hear, hear.) As to the question of payment for services rendered by the Union Government to the Provinces, they must make them pay wherever they could; but, after all, by constant nagging over petty details they did more harm than good. He thought they should be generous and not small or petty in these matters. He thought that in what he had said he had studiously refrained from anything leading to further debate, and he hoped that hon. members would not pursue him with any further arguments, and he would not pursue them. (Laughter.)

said that as to what the Minister had said about proportional representation, two out of five was not proportional representation. The Labour Party had voted for proportional representation even though it had not been, in their own interests, and the hon. Minister had sufficient acumen to know that. As to the little gibe about the criminal, well, he did not think that that was quite fair. Referring to what the Minister had said about the position in the Transvaal Provincial Council, the hon. member said that he had carefully read the proceedings of that body, and he did not see that the Administrator and the party with which the Administrator was associated had uttered a single word to show that they were willing to recede or go forward from the position that they had taken up.

declared it negatived.

The vote was agreed to.

said he thought the Tuberculosis Commission being allowed to run up the enormous expenditure it had was a scandal. He thought the action of the chairman of that Commission had brought discredit on the profession to which he (Dr. MacNeillie) had the pleasure to belong. He felt it to be his duty to raise his voice in protest against the action of the chairman of the Commission.

said the total expenditure on Commissions from May 31, 1910, to February 16, 1914, was £24,282. Some of the members of the Commission, it was only fair to point out, did not receive the extra pay that the other two members did. The Hon. R. Jameson, Dr. Porter, and Dr. Turner did not receive pay beyond the actual days on which they sat.

wished to know if there was likely to be legislation passed on the report of the Sunday Observance Commission? He also asked when the allowances for chaplains and grants to churches would cease; these involved State recognition of churches, which was undesirable.

said he desired to call attention to the position in relation to the stock of brandy held by the Government. The Union took over £183,000 worth of brandy. During the three years they had only sold £48,000 worth. He was afraid that the, Minister had overstayed his market. Not 1 per cent, of the total had been sold last year.

said that the position in relation to the stock of brandy held by the Government was typical of the Government. They had a large stock of brandy on their hands, and they sold a little off each year so that the wages of the brandy farmers would not be reduced. On the subject of Commissions? generally, and expressing his own personal opinion, he thought that these Commissions and their investigations were of much less value than they should be to the country. He was expressing a very heterodox view, but his own opinion was that it would be much better if these Commissions were appointed as Select Committees were appointed, from different sections of the House, so that there would be somebody in the House who had an intimate personal knowledge of the evidence upon which the Commissions’ reports were based.

said that there was something in the contention of the hon. member (Mr. Creswell), but, of course, one had to be very cautious in these matters. Charges of corruption so soon arose. The question of the brandy stocks, he admitted, was in a very unsatisfactory position. They had still about £160,000 worth of brandy. Certain of it had become quite impossible to sell under the new excise. The sales were in the hands of a Board The instruction to this Board was to sell when an opening occurred. With regard to the Sunday Observance Commission and when effect was to be given to the report of the Commission, he believed a question was addressed to his hon. friend (Mr. Malan) during the present session. His hon. friend was in charge of this matter now. He had stated that he hoped there would be an early opportunity of dealing with the matter. Where his hon. friend refrained from committing himself, he (General Smuts) would not dare to rush in (Laughter.) In regard to the Tuberculosis Commission, he could only hope that the value of the report would be more commensurate with the fees which had been drawn. His hon. friend would see that these were high professional men who were appointed on the Commission. The Chairman was for many years one of the chief officers of the old Cape Government.

The vote was agreed to.

On vote 18, Inland Revenue Department, £29,087.

asked the Minister to give some information regarding quitrent. Some time ago a circular was issued reducing the redemption period in some cases from 20 years to 10 years, but there was no reduction of the Gcaleka land titles issued in 1879.

pointed out that there was great dissatisfaction amongst the commercial community of the Union. When they came into Union they expected the inequalities of the various Provinces would be rectified. Unfortunately, the chaos had been continued, and while a number of things were in the hands of the Provincial Council there were many matters in the hands of the Union Parliament which were causing dissatisfaction. He would not go into the details bat would mention patents, trade marks, and so on. He asked the Minister if it was the intention of the Government to go into those commercial matters next session. He had letters from commercial people regarding licences. A foreign firm wanted to transact business in the Cape and had to pay £50 in the Cape while, it was only £10 in the Transvaal.

Another thing which was handed over to the Provincial Council was importers’ licences, they were dealing with the Customs, and that was not a matter for the Provinces. The result was that in the Transvaal they had to pay a small general dealer’s licence, which entitled them to import goods, of £2 a year, and in the Cape the merchants had to pay £100 a year for the same privilege. Those things were beyond him. The commercial community were feeling those things very severely, and he hoped the Minister would look into the matter.

also raised the question regarding travellers’ licences throughout the Union, which he thought should be based on a proper basis. There had been a great deal of industrial agitation, and unless there was some legislation on behalf of the commercial community they would have to adopt the same tactics as the Labour Party.

said that many commercial gentlemen in Natal had been raising the same question. Travelling agents from Natal went into the Free State and had to pay £100 licence, whereas agents travelling from the Free State to Natal were not so charged. The hon. member gave other instances which were burdensome, and commercial men felt they were unjustly treated. He hoped the Minister would look into the matter.

was understood to say that a consolidating Bill for commercial licences had been drafted, but owing to the stream of eloquence which had continued during the whole session there had been no time to bring it forward. Now, of course, he wanted revenue, and he was ransacking the Union for taxation.

Land tax?

said he wanted to know why other quitrents had been reduced and not those on the 1879 title.

said he would go into that. He could not give an explanation of that extraordinary conduct now. (Laughter.)

I am sure that a quite sound tax on unimproved values of land would suit my hon. friend.

The vote was agreed to.

said that certain wine brandy as distilled paid 5s. duty, but was sold as fancy brandy, something being added to it, and instead of paying 10s. duty it paid 5s. Hundreds of thousands of pounds were being lost that way, and the intention of Parliament was being frustrated. He hoped his hon. friend would give an assurance that he would go into the position.

drew attention to rebates given in regard to troops; by the Portuguese Government with regard to natives; and by the Railway Department. He said the matter had come before the Public Accounts Committee. He thought it was only right that Parliament should have some say and some control in the matter. His hon. friend the Minister could make what rebate he thought fit, and need not come near Parliament.

said that it was represented that large quantities of methylated spirits were being sold on the diamond fields to natives. A licensed victualler had to pay a heavy licence, but these methylated spirits could be obtained from anyone in large quantities.

moved the deletion of the item £180, grant to the Native Labour Association for services rendered. He asked what were these services rendered.

referred to the grant of £800 to the Imperial Institute and of £500 to the South African National Union. He asked whether the Minister still intended to keep them on.

in reply, said that for the present that grant would be continued. As to the £180, that, he understood, was payment to the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association in respect of services rendered to the Customs Department by officers of the W.N. L.A. in regard to the passing of native labourers through the Portuguese Customs examination.

They watch our interests?

Oh, yes.

It is all for the association’s benefit.

No. Continuing, the Minister said he would go into the question of methylated spirits raised by Mr. Oliver, and he was glad the hon. member had brought it up. The question of the excise would be gone into during the recess. The Adulteration Act and the Excise Act did not exactly fit into one another. As to the rebates, it was unnecessary to go into that question at this late hour.

said that the whole arrangement was for the convenience of the W.N.L.A.

No. If they did not do it for us we should have to appoint officials to watch our interests.

The reduction was negatived and the vote was agreed to.

On vote 21, Defence, £1,394,300,

moved to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

The motion was agreed to, and leave obtained to resume to-morrow.