from Levine H. Samuelson, who has been engaged in teaching in Natal since 1873, praying for the condonation of a break in her service, or for other relief.

, from J. H. Korff and 57 others, inhabitants of Tzitzikamma, praying for the construction of a line of railway through the Tzitzikamma to connect with the Port Elizabeth-Avontuur line, or for other relief.

from Hojee Hofiz Hoosen and Mohomed Bodot, representing the Mohammedan community of Natal, praying that some fit and properperson may be appointed as a marriage officer in the Province of Natal for the solemnisation of marriages of persons professing the Mohammedan faith, and that such marriages shall in all respects be governed by Mohammedan law as set forth in the Koran.

Papers relating to grants and leases of lands (54 to 60).

These papers were referred to the Select Committee on Waste Lands.

moved that the Report of the Select Committee on the petition of the Mayor and Town Councillors of the Borough of Vryheid, Natal, be referred to the Government for consideration. The recommendations of the Committee were as follows: (1) That no grant be made to the Borough of Vryheid as compensation for the loss of water of the Klein Magot. (2) That the debt of £1,577 paid by the Natal Government, being the balance due to the estate of the late Hermanns Potgieter, and which, under the Vryheid Local Board Act, 1906, has been made a charge against the Local Board, be remitted. Mr. Myburgh went on to say that the Select Committee had found that the statements set forth in the petition were substantially true. The petitioners prayed for compensation for the loss of certain streams of water known as Klein Magot, and also for the debt of £1,577 standing against them in the books of the Union Treasury to be remitted. It was proved in evidence that Vryheid had suffered a great loss, but the Committee thought that things should be allowed to remain undisturbed, because the railway would have to go somewhere else for their water supply and the town could not benefit in any way. The Committee also thought that an injustice was being done to them in asking them to pay £1,577 now standing to their debit, and from which they had not materially benefited. The Council had gone further afield and carried out another water scheme at a cost of about £5,000.

He thought that all things would be met by leaving things as they were, as far as the water rights were concerned, and by the Government remitting the sum of £1,577.

seconded the motion.

said he would like to point out that this matter resolved itself into two parts—one was that the borough request compensation for the loss of water and the other that an amount of £1,577 be remitted. On account of the manner in which the railway had taken the water they had put the town of Vryheid to much greater expense, and again when they came to the £1,577 they found that the position was this: when the annexation of the northern territories took place £700,000 was paid by Natal, but if there had been a complete adjustment there was no doubt that the Transvaal Government would have received this £700,000, less the £1,577. He thought that the Borough of Vryheid had made out a very good case for the remission of this amount, and he hoped that the motion would be adopted.

pointed out that the members of the Select Committee were not unanimous. Two members voted against the report presented. This was a rather interesting case, because it was one of the results of the old Transvaal days. The Transvaal Government put £8,000 upon the Estimates for the water supply to Vryheid, but would not grant the town a charter. Afterwards the town asked the Natal Government for a charter, and the Natal Government said they could have the charter if they would take over this liability. Besides getting this amount for a water supply, Vryheid asked to have electric light as well Natal allowed them to raise a matter of £35,000 on condition that this £1,577 would be repaid. According to the Natal Act, if any village subsequently became a borough or Town Council, then that borough or Town Council had to repay money advanced upon their water supply. If this was remitted other Municipalities would say: You have let off Vryheid; you must let us off, too. He hoped the Government would not agree to the recommendation of the majority of the committee.

said there could not be any doubt that the Transvaal intended to make a free gift of the water-works to Vryheid. He had no doubt that the town had made out a very good case for the remission of this amount of £1,577. He could not understand the objections of the hon. member, except that hon. members on the opposite side seemed to be objecting to everything from Natal.

said it was of great importance when it concerned the carrying out of contracts. When Vryheid was laid out as a village certain promises were made by the Transvaal Government, one of these being the constructing of a water scheme, whilst the Government was to manage the affairs of the village, and also to collect the rates. When the war broke out the water scheme was nearly paid off, the only amount owing being some £1,577. After the war Vryheid was in a very dirty condition as the result of the congregation of troops. The Municipality had been obliged to take over the control of the village as well as the debt of £1,577. But the village never had had any advantage of the water supply, as it had been taken over by the railways. The Municipality had been obliged to take over the debt, and had at the same time been obliged to construct a new Water supply at a cost of £8,000. The Railway Administration had promised the village that they would let the village have any surplus water from the railway reservoir. Vryheid did not, however, make use of that surplus water, but constructed its own water works. That was because the supply of surplus water was too precarious. This debt was the result of an undertaking of the old Transvaal Government, and he held it was the duty of this Government to take over that debt. All the Select Committee now recommended was that this debt should be taken off the Municipality. It was essential that they should do so, he held, and it was an honourable obligation—nothing less.

said that while not in favour of motions that made assaults on the Treasury, the Government intended, in the special circumstances that had been made out—(Opposition laughter)—to accept the motion. (Ministerial cheers.) This did not mean, however, that the Government immediately intended to remit this money. The fact was that the Council of Vryheid had been saddled with a debt in respect of these water-works, which were constructed under the regime of the old Transvaal Government, and were of no use to the Council. At the outset the Minister of Railways and Harbours opposed the motion owing to another plea in the petition with respect to the water used by the railways. The Railway Department would continue to use the water in the future as it had done in the past. In conclusion, he said that the Government would give the matter its most serious attention.

said it would be only right that he should say a few words on the subject. He knew the history of Vryheid tolerably well. The hon. member for Turffontein said that the speaker’s name was connected with the question. If the hon. member for Turffontein had been in the country before the war, he would have known that he (the speaker) had as a member in the First Volksraad for Vryheid always been opposed to the contract in regard to the Vryheid water scheme. He was then in the Opposition, and considered that the Government in those days should not have made such a contract. He had always favoured a scheme under which the water supply should be constructed, should be undertaken by scientific men. A contract was given to non-scientific men, and it afterwards turned out badly. The Republican Government bought the water rights of a farm, and then a contract was given for the construction of waterworks. The men who had undertaken the contract had been unable to bring the water from the Groot Magot to Vryheid. An attempt had been made to make the water climb over a ridge that was at a higher level than the river, and the attempt had, of course, failed. Undoubtedly there had been a necessity to supply Vryheid with water.

The town was laid out in 1884 by the speaker, and he had been chairman of the committee which selected the site. The object of the committee was to get water from the Klein Magot for the town, and Vryheid was laid out below that stream. The railway came afterwards, but they had never expected that the railway would require to have the water from the Klein Magot, and had in fact arranged that the water for the railway should be obtained from the spring to the north-west of the town.

Vryheid was a poor place, and was occupied by the military during the late war. The outer parts of the town were destroyed, houses broken down and the trees cut down, and on the whole it had suffered more than any place from the effects of the war. If there had been no war, Vryheid would have paid the debt long ago. It was created a municipality on condition that it took over the debt, but owing to unfortunate circumstances the debt had not been paid. Nor had Vryheid obtained value for that money.

The motion before the House represented the proper course that should be taken in the matter. The House could not go further than that. The Government supported the motion, and after further inquiry had been made, the Government would go further into the matter. The water from the Klein Magot was not sufficient for both the railway and the town of Vryheid. There was more than enough for the railway, and what there was over ought to go to the town.

The motion was agreed to.

in moving the second reading of the Natal Marriage Law Amendment Bill, said the measure contained nothing contentious, but was designed to remove certain disabilities. It was an exact reproduction of the Cape Marriage Law Amendment Act of 1906. The legislation of the Free State and the Transvaal, although differing in form, was exactly the same in the result. The position with regard to Natal was this: A young man residing in the Cape Province, intending to be married, set out from the Cape, having duly made proclamation by banns, only to find, when he reached Natal, that the proclamation by banns was of no effect. He had then three alternatives—he had either to reside in Natal for three weeks, or to hurry to the Chief Magistrate and obtain a special licence at a cost of £3, or try to induce a minister of religion to break the law.

The fourth alternative is that he need not get married. (Laughter.)

said that if the intending benedict came from Natal to the Cape to get married, there was no difficulty. The disability which the Bill would remove was specially felt in the case of young ladies arriving in Natal from oversea for the purpose of being married. Many people were only too glad to afford the shelter of their homes to ladies arriving for that purpose, but in many cases neither of the parties had any friends at the port, and the consequence was that very great and serious difficulties arose because banns published in England or elsewhere were not recognised in Natal. The Durban Christian Ministers’ Association was unanimous in its wish that this disability should be removed, and the Anglican, Baptist, Congregational, Dutch Reformed, Wesleyan, Presbyterian, and Roman Catholic churches all united in desiring the removal of the anomaly. Any measure which facilitated holy matrimony would receive the cordial support of every man in that House. (Cheers.)

urged that to the ordinary marriage certicate another certificate should be attached from the Master of the Supreme Court that the estates of the parties were in order. The present position was this: When people in the Transvaal wanted to marry, and could not get a certificate from the Orphan Master to show that the estate had been adjusted, they went to Natal to get married. That should be prevented, and the hon. member should include a provision in his Bill to that effect. He supported the motion.

said he did not like to put obstacles in the way of parties who had been so graphically described by the mover, but it would be a pity to deal with one point only in the law of marriage—(hear, hear)—instead of dealing with the matter on a broader and larger basis. Of course, people would ask: “Why haven’t you introduced such a law?” (Cheers.) When the question was last before the House it was not only a question of what the European element desired, but there was a larger and more complicated question which made the settlement rather difficult of immediate solution. The matter required full consideration in all its aspects. The difficulty was not really a great one, because it must not be forgotten that immediately the parties landed they could obtain a special licence, and having incurred great expense to come here, surely they would not stick at spending a few pounds for that purpose. What would a special licence cost?

A NATAL MEMBER: £3.

A CAPE MEMBER: £5 in the Cape.

It sounds like an auction. (Laughter.) Proceeding, Mr. Fischer said that the parties could get a special licence if they did not have the patience to wait to get better acquainted with one another, and have the banns called. (Laughter and cries of “Oh!”) They ought to give these people a chance—marry in haste and repent at leisure.

said that the right hon. gentleman, in the course of his remarks, had said it looked as if things were being put up to auction. If there was anything being put up to auction in that House, it seemed to be the opinions of Ministers, who could not make up their minds what they were to do. (Laughter.) They were told in the first session of the Union Parliament that this was one of the most important things, as far as consolidating legislation was concerned. The Minister of Finance, then the Minister of the Interior, introduced a Bill to consolidate the marriage laws of the Union. Because the hon. gentleman found there were differences of opinion, and the Government could not make up their minds, this thing, which was considered of so much importance, had been shelved for a period of two and a half years. Who was responsible for that? The people who sat on the Treasury benches. (Hear, hear.) He could understand, if the right hon. gentleman had said that this was an important question, and the Government were prepared to introduce and put through a Bill dealing with it this session, that he (Mr. Fischer) should say to the hon. member who had moved the second reading of this Bill that he should withdraw it, and have the request contained in this Bill dealt with in general Bill concerning the marriage laws of the Union. But nothing of the sort had been promised. If that were not the intention, surely his hon. friend who had moved the second reading of this Bill had made a very good case for the House being prepared to deal, even by a half measure, with what undoubtedly was an evil. Surely it was a substantial grievance that a young lady coming out to Natal should, owing to the character of the laws, be compelled, if she had no banns, to wait for three weeks before she could be married. Many of them were poor people, and he hoped, under the circumstances, the Government would reconsider the situation, and, if they did not, he hoped that at least the House would in this case do justice to the measure introduced by his hon. friend. Let this not be used for the purpose of forming another link in the chain to restrict immigration.

said that if the mover of the Bill had read the history of this question he did not think he would have moved it at all. He (Mr. Haggar) wanted to oppose the second reading on the ground of the subject itself. The question of banns was nothing more or less than a piece of priestly imposition handed on from the darkest of the Dark Ages. From the start, it was a claim put forward by the Church, that the Church, and the Church alone, should say who should and who should not be married. His two objections were, first of all, that the publication of banns in cases where proposals were honourable was absolutely unnecessary. In this country if the proposals were not honourable the publication of banns was absolutely useless, for if parties only cared to spend a few pounds they need not have banns at all, but could go to the magistrate and be married offhand. Modern countries had none of this nonsense at all, and in those countries where banns were not published, society did not suffer.

Pietermaritzburg, North) said that, in supporting the motion for the second reading of this Bill, he must express his regret that the Minister of the Interior did not appear to have appreciated the gravity with which the people of Natal viewed the situation. (Hear, hear.) They had felt the inconvenience of this and the necessity for alteration for some time. It was a standing disgrace to this country that it was possible for a girl to arrive in Durban in ignorance of the laws of this country, and be stopped for three weeks from getting married to the man of her choice. They were putting difficulties in the way of honourable marriage in the State.

said it was quite unnecessary for the hon. member for Roodepoort to inform them that he was a relic of the Golden Age, when angels walked amongst men. The subject matter of this Bill was first raised in 1907 in the Law Courts of Natal, where an application for a divorce was made, and the defence was put up that the marriage was not valid, because the banns had not been properly put up. In their comments upon the case, the three judges were unanimous upon the point that there was necessity for some alteration in the Marriage Ordinance. If it had not been for the proximity of Union and the change of Government, there was no doubt that an amended law would have been passed in Natal. The matter appeared to be more serious than the hon. member for Durban had stated. There were a number of married couples to-day, whose marriages were not in accordance with the Marriage Ordinance. The point was that these marriages were not void, but were voidable.

It was extremely dangerous for ladies coming out from England to have their banns read on board ship, and he believed that there were dozens of cases where marriages were voidable. In the Committee stage, he would move a small amendment, to make these marriages not solemnised in quite a proper form regular and non-voidable, because this was a most serious thing, when they came to look at the children born of these marriages. (Hear, hear.)

said he certainly supported the motion of the hon. member for Durban. The hon. Minister, it seemed, was not going to do anything, and he was not going to allow anyone else to do anything. Such a Bill should not be dealt with upon any party lines. He hoped that the House would give a more sympathetic hearing to Bills brought in by private members.

said that surely this was an important subject, and should be dealt with in the simplest possible manner. The Minister did not show that the Bill would introduce any possible complication, nor that any inconvenience would be caused. He hoped that the colleagues of the right hon. gentleman would induce him to see that he was wrong in this matter. It was his duty to a neighbouring Province to allow this Bill to go through. He had much pleasure in supporting the motion for the second reading, and he hoped that there would be no further opposition to the Bill.

supported the Bill, and hoped that the Prime Minister would also give his support to it.

said he wished to make the position of the Government on this matter quite clear. The Minister of Lands had referred to a few difficulties in connection with the Bill. They were not going to vote against the second reading of this measure, but they wanted an amendment or two made in committee, because at present the Bill did not seem to give the necessary protection to matters concerning estates If the Bill did not afford that protection, he would have to vote against it, and he would ask hon. members on his side of the House to vote against it. He regretted, however, that this matter should be dealt with piecemeal.

That is the Government’s own fault.

Yes, that was the hon. member’s opinion, but, after all, this present law had been in existence in Natal for many years, and no amendment had ever been made to it, but now, all of a sudden, it became extremely urgent to amend the law. (Hear, hear.) However, he would not oppose the second reading, and hoped to have the support of the introducer in Committee, when the Government would introduce an amendment for the protection of estates. He took up this attitude so as to show to hon. members that there was no intention to oppose the Bill for the sake of opposition. (Hear, hear.)

said they were extremely glad that the Government were going to accept the motion for the second reading. He regretted that the matter had been lightly treated by the Minister. People did not seem to understand the position. The Bill only asked for something very reasonable. The daughters and sisters of people who lived up-country were always sheltered and provided for. People who lived in the country did not understand that every young girl coming out to get married had to put up at a hotel, perhaps for three weeks, to conform to the law of the country. This was a serious matter. In conclusion, he said he hoped that Ministers would treat this important question seriously and sympathetically.

said that marriage in Natal was an easy matter, though he could not say how that came about. Last year a man ran away to Natal with the daughter of his sister, but the speaker could not say how the matter had been contrived. When a widower wished to re-marry, he was required, first of all, to produce a certificate from the Orphan Master. It was necessary that estates should be better protected, and provisions to that effect should be added when the Bill came into committee. In other respects the Bill was acceptable.

said that the right hon. gentleman need not be afraid of complications in regard to these estates, as they were safeguarded in the measure relating to the administration of estates.

The Bill was read a second time, and set down for committee stage on the following Wednesday.

who said that he supported the motion before the House. Many points had been touched upon as to why technical education should be encouraged, and many points had been omitted, and one of the most important omissions was the question of the future of those youths who made themselves efficient through technical education. He was glad to hear the tributes that had been paid to the Durban Technical Institute, which, he said, had been largely founded as the result of private enterprise, and as employers reaped much benefit from technical education it was only fair that they should pay their fair share towards the expenditure. The speaker pointed out that the idea of such an institute came from a small committee that met about seven years ago, and at the present time there were no fewer than three thousand class students at the Institute. Dealing with the policy of the Government in regard to technical education, he said he thought it might be summed up a policy of ten per cent. encouragement and ninety per cent. discouragement, and in proof of that he referred to the speech of the Minister of Railways and Harbours at the opening of the current session of the Salt River Technical Classes. He was not surprised that the Minister’s speech had been interrupted.

said that the hon. member must confine himself to the motion before the House, and not deal with what had happened at the Salt River meeting.

said that the meeting had had to do with technical education, and that he was trying to get at the policy of the Government on the subject. He contended that the statement of the Minister to students that if they fully equipped themselves they would not take money out of people’s pockets but put it in, proved his contention that those who fitted themselves under technical education did not reap the economic results which they were entitled to. He proceeded to deal with the treatment of apprentices after their technical education training, which the Government to a small extent encouraged them to go in for, and said that when they finished their term of apprenticeship they received 5s. a day and for the two years that they served as improvers they got 6s. a day for the first year and 7s. a day for the second year, and then they were allowed to work up to the maximum of 13s. a day. They were refused the standard wage, and after fourteen years’ service they got the maximum of 13s. a day. He was understood to say that the Grievances Commission recommended that they should get the standard rate of pay four years after the completion of their term of apprenticeship, though those on the cross benches were of opinion, as apprentices should be fully qualified at the end of their term of apprenticeship, that they should receive the standard rate of wage at once. The Commission pointed out a most glaring anomaly, that artisans trained outside the Cape Government Railways, and who possessed no greater experience and ability, and had much less service, were paid rates in excess of the men trained departmentally.

There was another point. Hon. members seemed to forget that workers rose and fell as a class, for they could not all get picked out for promotion. Mr. Boydell instanced the case of a fifth engineer on the Kenilworth Castle, who held an extra chief engineer’s certificate, and all the engineers on that steamer held chief engineers’ certificates. It was the same on the mines, and in the railways. Although every individual in the railway service might be fully qualified to take any position in the service yet the outlook on life of the bulk of the men was 13s. a day, and they could get no more. While it was a fact that technical education had made rapid strides in England and Germany, it had also awakened the imagination of the workers. While the men had been qualifying themselves technically they had also studied what made them so poor, and others so rich. Technical or any other education was bound to awaken the imagination. The hon. member for Victoria West smiled, but as the result of that awakening progress was made with Trades Unions and with political organisations. People were having their imaginations awakened, and they said: “If we are responsible for producing this prosperity around us, how is it we do not have a little more of it for ourselves?” The workers must arrive at the conclusion that if they wished to participate in the national prosperity they must control the machinery of government and direct legislation into channels which would benefit them. In Natal the farmers controlled the legislation, and in the Cape the wine farmers did.

I must point out to the hon. member that the motion is one dealing with technical education. The hon. member is travelling quite outside that subject. (Hear, hear.)

With the profoundest respect for your ruling, I was dealing with the advantages to be derived from technical education, and I have no wish to repeat myself. If we are going to encourage technical education in South Africa we must point out who is going to get the benefit of it. I am glad this opportunity has been provided to show that although the workers might qualify themselves in the highest possible degree, unless fresh avenues are opened up for them the education they receive will not benefit them personally, although it will benefit the nation as a whole. (Hear, hear.)

maintained that technical education affected the Union as a whole. When they looked round Cape Town and saw how little had been done, and found that in Durban 1,400 students had passed through the technical college there this year

Why doesn’t Cape Town get a move on?

*Mr. BROWN: I suppose because in Natal the Government is giving the matter encouragement, but the Government in the Cape does nothing. (Hear, hear.) Continuing, Mr. Brown said that we had suffered through a lack of technical education for our young men. The Minister should not shelter himself behind the assertion that this was a matter for the Provincial Council. It had been said that technical education taught a man how to use his hands as well as his head. He urged upon the Government to give a lead in this matter, and not to throw the responsibility on the Provincial Councils and say it was their duty. It was not their duty only, but it was the duty of this Parliament to do something direct for technical education.

The Act of Union.

That simply deals with education other than higher education. Does the Minister call technical training elementary education? I don’t. Technical education is distinct from scholastic education. Mr. Brown went on to say that Parliament’s responsibility was to the youth of the country, and it should not throw that responsibility back on the Provincial Council. Suppose the latter failed to do it? He hoped the Minister would do something and not leave it in a sort of indifferent manner. The speaker also dealt with technical education at Port Elizabeth and what was being done there.

said he would like to say one word on the amendment of the hon. member for Queen’s Town, in which he moved that they should ask for the co-operation of the Provinces and other local bodies. He would like to point out to the last speaker that the Act of Union said “education other than higher education.” Technical could not possibly be higher education. Therefore the proposal was impossible; they could not do it unless they wanted to interfere where they had no right to interfere. He held in his hands a draft Ordinance which the Provincial Council proposed to introduce for technical, art, and music schools.

said that, while he sympathised with the motion of the hon. member for Woodstock, he quite agreed with some of the sentiments which he had heard expressed with regard to the attitude of the Government in this matter, and he was very much in sympathy with the view of the right hon. the member for Victoria West when he urged the importance of local effort. Sir David went on to speak of the origin and early history of the Durban Technical Institute, and showed how great a part voluntary effort had played in its success. They must, he urged, begin by getting the local people interested in doing something for themselves, and the Government should then come in and help a movement of this kind. He did not know whether the best plan was to appoint some technical adviser, but, at any rate, the Government could help, and had already helped, in connection with the institution he had mentioned.

said that the reason why they had such successful technical institutions at Pretoria, Pietermaritzburg, Durban, and other centres was that the people themselves had shown great interest in the movement. They recognised that Cape Town was the most important city in South Africa, and the reason why she was so backward in this respect was because there had been a want of energy, and a want of local patriotism amongst her people.

Certainly not.

asked how it was, then, that the movement had been so successful in much smaller centres? He hoped that the people of Cape Town would put their hands into their pockets, and bring the city into line with other centres, where the people had helped themselves. As to the question generally, its great importance was recognised, not only in the towns, but also in the smaller centres.

said that there seemed to be some little difference of opinion as to what was technical education. The hon. member who had just spoken had got on to dangerous ground when he said this ought to be done by individual effort. There were conditions in certain parts of South Africa where he (Sir Percy) did not think that individual effort was equal to coping with the position. It was all very well to talk about the Provinces, but he did not think they were going to get this right unless some stimulus were supplied by the Central Government. Throughout this debate technical education had been treated as something that only concerned the industrial centres. In those centres technical education was certainly badly needed. The point that struck him was, that these proposals could only deal with what they called the industrial centres. What were they going to do for the country districts— (hear, hear)—where, if anywhere, if the white man were going to maintain himself, he had got to be equipped with something that they called technical education, something that would give him a counterpoise to the unskilled Kafir? The case for giving people something that would enable them to uphold their economic position was a very urgent one, and he doubted very much whether the Provincial Councils were going to deal with it thoroughly. Then, again, what were the women going to do? They were not being taught anything; they were not being equipped with the means of earning their own livelihood. In Pretoria and Cape Town they had started a school of domestic science. He believed that at Bethlehem they had also got a very good establishment, and that at several other places efforts were being made. The very patriotic and hard-working women of Pretoria, led at the time by the then Mayoress, attempted to get up what they called a million shilling scheme for the establishment of a School of Domestic Science. It was a voluntary effort. There was a little success. The best success was that people were being educated, but very slowly. What he wanted to see was the whole force any sympathy of the Government put behind this movement. If they made only a beginning, it would show that their hearts and souls were set upon the task of giving the country technical education. He pressed hard for a broad consideration of this subject, which should include both boys and girls, and make provision for them.

said it did not seem very plain to him whether the motion meant that the Government should throw itself into a broad policy, or that the Government should take over technical education from the Provincial Council. It seemed to him to be rather in the latter sense. He always regretted that technical education should be in the hands of the Provincial Councils, but it had been decided to leave it to them for a period of four years. There was a broad difference between technological education and technical education. Technological education was what they got up to university education, and would be included under “higher” education. Technical education was certainly not “higher” education, and it would be a grave mistake to consider it as such, because in such a case it would not affect the great mass of the people. He objected to the attack upon the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, made by the hon. member for Vryheid. He did not think that the hon. member for Cape Town had anything to be ashamed of in this matter. (Hear, hear.) He had shown a great amount of energy, and he regretted remarks of the kind made against him that were not justified at all. He (Mr. Fremantle) entirely sympathised with the last speaker with regard to technical education in the country. It was a matter that was engaging the attention of people in all parts of the world. He hoped that whatever authority was entrusted with this question would devise some scheme for bringing technical education within the reach of the people of the country. He thought, however, that this matter should be allowed to grow naturally. They had some beginning already in technical education in the country, and railway institutes and industrial shows, and he thought the Government was justified in giving small grants to keep these movements alive. He thought that some means should be devised whereby technical education should be introduced to the people in their own homes. Even the instrumentality of the School Boards all over the country would have to be invoked. He hoped that the Minister would take into consideration the suggestion of calling skilled workmen as well as employers into consultation on advisory committees. He also thought that the Government would be of some assistance in providing strong central institutes, Instead of having separate institutions for separate departments in the same place. He hoped also that they would not separate this scheme of education from the general education of the country. In the development of the scheme they would have to have some instructors and organisers, and these should be appointed for the large centres and rural areas as well. The difficult and important question in rural technical education was generally omitted from these schemes, and it would be necessary to have an instructor for these areas also. He entirely associated himself with the desire for a forward movement upon national lines, although he did not think this was a happy thought that this should be brought before the House as long as the Provincial Council had control of education. He was glad that the hon. member for Woodstock had brought forward this motion, however, if, it was only to show the great difficulty of dealing with education unless upon a national basis.

said there was no hesitation upon their part in supporting the hon. member for Woodstock. He thought that too much had been claimed for technical education by hon. members who had spoken. He unhesitatingly affirmed that it would not be a solution of many of their difficulties, as many speakers had led them to believe. He understood the hon. member for Woodstock and the hon. member for Pretoria, East, to say something to the effect that if they did not technically educate the white man in this country he could not be expected successfully to compete with the black man. They argued that the white workers should be educated in order that they might successfully oust the coloured and black men from the skilled labour market in this country. That was quite impossible, even if it were desirable, for they could not do anything of the kind. If they were going to give technical education to white men in this country, the Kafir and the coloured men would demand it also. As a matter of fact, they were already receiving it. In the Transvaal, which was not considered generally to be over-favourable to the Kafir and coloured man, there were schools where the coloured were taught handicrafts, and skilled mechanics also were being turned out. It seemed to him to be remarkable that such a point of view should be put to that House. To his mind, their salvation did not lie in that direction. It would not help the white man to compete with the coloured, for as a white man improved himself, so would the coloured man improve with him. Proceeding, he asked if any hon. member seriously maintained, with regard to any particular trade or occupation in this country, that if he wanted any number of workmen he would not be able to obtain them in South Africa? (An Hon. Member: No.) He (Mr. Andrews) would say, unhesitatingly, Yes; and if any hon. member wanted workmen he would find them suitable men for any ordinary trade. Let any who wanted men apply to the Trades Hall at Johannesburg or to the various Trades Unions. Of course, if they wanted men to work for about a quarter of the proper wages they would then find they could not get them.

They had heard that there was a rooted disinclination for white men to do unskilled manual work in this country, but he had never heard that it was a disgrace to be a skilled artisan; and if there was such a feeling abroad in this country he had not come across it. There was too much of that kind of talk being bandied about. He had been the organiser of a very large Trade Union in this country—the Amalgamated Society of Engineers, and time after time parents had come and asked him if he could not find their sons an opportunity of learning some calling or trade on the Rand or elsewhere, and he had to tell them that every shop that he knew of had all the apprentices they required. The hon. member for Victoria West had said there was great difficulty in getting people to go as apprentices—to bind themselves to the discipline that was necessary, but that statement was not true. They were extremely interested in the right hon. gentleman’s speeches, but when he dealt with industrial questions, his statements, very often, were not founded on fact, but only a part of the facts was presented to the House; that part of truth which suited his argument at that particular time. The right hon. gentleman had referred to a Select Committee which sat in 1896 to take evidence on matters of a similar nature to what they were discussing. He found in the record of the evidence, Question No. 40, which was put to Mr. Beattie, who was not a Trades Union agitator, but a local superintendent in Cape Town. The question put to him was this: “Do you have many applications from lads who wish to become apprentices?” The answer was: “Yes; a good number.” “Could you treble or double the number who were learning in shops in Cape Town?” The answer was: “I think we could double them, but the question then would be, is there scope for them in the Colony when they have learned their trade.” That, proceeded Mr. Andrews, was Mr. Beattie’s opinion in 1896, and what he had in his mind then was equally true to-day. It was absolutely no use starting their technical schools and bringing up their apprentices to any trade in this country if they could not find occupation for a certain number of them when they got out of their time.

With regard to the contention that boys were unwilling to submit to discipline, he would draw their attention to the point made by the local superintendent for Uitenhage at that time. He was asked: Do many of the boys leave your shops before they are 21? (they were not bound). The reply was: “Very few. We have had one or two cases, but they are very exceptional.” That would show that there was not at that time any great disinclination to learn a trade, or that skilled labour was considered a disgrace. The hon. member proceeded to quote other evidence to show that at the time there was not room in the shops for more apprentices, who were willing and anxious to learn a trade, and apply it. There was another remark to which he would like to allude, made by the right hon. gentleman. He said: “So long as a man can get high wages he does not want to become competent.” What did the right hon. gentleman mean? He seemed to have a hazy idea in his mind that the very fact that a man was paid reasonable, or what he called high, wages, at once made him unwilling to do his best, and that the proper thing to do was to give him as low wages as possible, so as to make him that “docile and willing worker” so desired by the hon. member for Troyeville. Technical education was absolutely useless unless the boys or youths who went to study in these schools had previously had a good foundation laid, with a sound elementary education. The hon. Minister had said that 80 to 85 per cent. of the youths of this country left school at the Fourth Standard. He went on to quote his own case, saying that he left school at the age of 13, having passed the Seventh Standard. At the end of his apprenticeship he attended technical classes, but found that even with the sound elementary education he had received, some of the training imparted was beyond him. How, then, could they expect boys leaving school at the Fourth Standard to take advantage of technical education worthy of that name? The Minister had also pointed out that there was also a dearth of suitable people, and he wondered what the reason was. He went on to refer to the salary of £12 10s. offered to a teacher required at Potchefstroom, and pointed out that big firms paid their men well. The educational authorities should do the same, and pay good wages for the best teachers. He agreed with the hon. member for Greyville that the phrase, “There is always room at the top,” did not apply in these days; and that if they trained all their white boys up to become skilled mechanics, they would not be able to give them employment. He did not think that poverty and such like things could be solved by technical education. He contended that what was necessary, first, was a sounder elementary education of a higher standard. More money should be spent on elementary education up to Standards Six and Seven, and a boy should be at school up to the age of 16 years. He went on to refer to the Danish system of education, which the promoters declared in 1844 should have an influence on domestic and private life, as well as civil and public life. If that system was inculcated here, there would be no need to talk about the benefits of technical education, because these benefits would be realised. He thought that their boys should be given a sound elementary education up to the age of 16, and then they would get mechanics of a higher standard.

said that he had listened almost with a sense of despair to the speech of the hon. member for Georgetown. One expected from a man who had passed through the mill, and knew what he was talking about, as the hon. member for Georgetown knew what he was talking about when he spoke on industrial matters, and who had had more experience in this way than the average member of that House, something better than the doctrine he had preached. It seemed to him (Mr. Long) that there ran through the whole speech a strained undercurrent, which led one to think that the hon. member looked upon technical education almost from what he might call a jaundiced or a prejudiced point of view, and that there was a something about which the hon. member had not been quite candid. He hoped the hon. member would not think he was speaking in a hostile way. He thought that this matter was of the greatest interest and importance to the future of this country, and that they would do well to throw aside party differences and other things, and put forward what ideas they could in order to arrive at some satisfactory solution of the whole matter. It was in that spirit that he had listened to the speech of the hon. member, and he came to the conclusion that the hon. member had not been speaking to what would be best for the country, but looked at it as though he were oppressed by some prepossession of his party, or some individual prepossession. He had said that the employer favoured technical education, because it trained for him docile wage slaves. That might be the reason which prompted employers to put themselves out of the way to assist the working-classes to acquire technical training. In his opinion, he did not believe that such a motive underlay the work of those employers who gave time and spent money in order that these people receive the benefits of a technical training. He thought that if the hon. member would take the point of view that these people were animated by a genuine desire, then he would be able to approach the subject without that prepossession which seemed to have vitiated a large portion of his remarks. He wished hon. members on the cross-benches would get rid of that idea that employers were in favour, and gave money and time to technical education in order to grind down those who occupied less advantageous positions. When they made assumptions of that sort, they were doing an injustice, if not to the whole class, then to individual members of that class.

How do you know? It is only a matter of opinion.

said he did not wish to bandy words across the floor of the House on such a subject. He wished to treat the hon. member with every possible courtesy, because he thought they should all put their ideas into the melting-pot, in order to arrive at a reasonable solution. He did not pretend to know the motives of every man, but he did say that those employers who interested themselves in technical education did not do so in order to get docile wage slaves, but better chances for men in this country. He had found another disappointment in the speech. His hon. friend had said that the old idea that there was always room at the top was exploded, and that if the same education was given to every youth, that there would be congestion of the better posts available. The extremely clear brain of his hon. friend seemed to have been obscured by another of these strange prepossessions. Surely he knew that if they took two boys at an early age, trained them up in the same way, and gave them the same opportunities, they would find that one of those boys would be a better man than the other ?

Why?

Because there is in human nature a kind of inherent inequality, or, shall I say, a difference in capacity—(hear, hear)—which distinguishes one man from another man. If they could take all boys who desired to follow one of the skilled trades and gave them the best technical education possible, it would be found in the end that some had benefited by their opportunities, while others had not, and the result would be that the productive capacity of the nation would be increased, and those unable to find an outlet for their talents would only have themselves to blame. The hon. member had told them that what was required was not so much a better system of technical education, but of general education, and in that he (Mr. Long) agreed. If it were true to say that if every person were given an equal technical education there would be a congestion at the top, the same thing would apply to general education. (Hear, hear.) When the hon. member talked on these matters of which he had practical experience, he should try to get away from his strange prepossession, and voice his ideas with a view to benefiting the people, and endeavour to explain the way in which these defects could be remedied and how technical education could be turned to the best advantage to the country. (Cheers.)

said he would not have taken part in the debate but for the speech of the hon. member for Liesbeek, who appeared to look upon himself as the educator and lecturer to the gentlemen who sat on the cross-benches. He (Mr. Creswell) wished to point out the difference between what he gathered from the hon. member’s speech and what the hon. member for Liesbeek gathered. The latter said that the speech had filled him with despair, but he (Mr. Creswell) had never heard an exposition more clearly put forward. The hon. member said that he agreed entirely that the more highly skilled we, as a nation, were, the better it would be, but that it would be better for the State to see that boys received a thoroughly sound general education, so that they might start in life with their minds well developed The hon. member pointed out the disadvantages which he wished to save the boys of South Africa, and there would be very few among them who had the capacity of surmounting the difficulties which the hon. member for Greyville had. What the hon. member for Liesbeek appeared to have entirely overlooked was that giving further facilities for technical instruction would not materially help those who had it unless those at present possessing privileges were prepared to abandon them. He (Mr. Creswell) wished to instance an institution which the right hon. gentleman for Victoria West had applauded—the Miners’ Training School. Suppose that the boys attending this institution were trained to become more skilled than the present miners, who would reap the benefit? Suppose that this frightful wastage from miners’ phthisis did not complicate the question, and suppose the Government turned out from 50 to 100 qualified engineers annually. They must remember that the field of employment on the mines was not an expanding one. The only effect would be that those who were less skilled than those turned out by the Government would be dispensed with and the employers would simply get the benefit of the increased amount of skill, exactly as if a more efficient machine were placed in the hands of the, employers to do the work at a less cost. His hon. friends were not opposed to technical education, but under the present system they might talk in pious terms, but they would not do good to those whom they professedly desired to benefit, and the main advantages would be reaped by the employers. They had to face the fact that however much they might improve the efficiency of the average man they were continuing the process they saw in operation in every civilised country—the wage earner remaining very much on the same level, and the whole benefit of the improvement going to the employer. The Labour Party had endeavoured to point out various directions in which they desired a mitigation of the present circumstances. They did not pretend to be able to paint a perfect Utopia, but when they saw clear obstacles, restricting the power of men to benefit by their own labour, they wished to see those obstacles removed. They had pointed out many directions in which a greater probability would accrue of men being able to secure more the results of their increased efficiency, but they had found very little sympathy in that House. (Labour cheers.)

said that if the hon. member for Jeppe carried his argument to a logical conclusion the result would be that the less efficient a worker a man was the better. (An Hon. Member: No.) The hon. member for Jeppe said that the only effect of improved technical skill was to give greater advantages to the employer by getting more efficient labour at less wages. A more unfair statement of the case he (Mr. Struben) had never heard. With a large mass of uncivilised people, and another big body of coloured people, unless we gave white children a chance of obtaining technical education, inevitably within 100 years the natives and coloured people would become skilled, and where would the white children be then? In South Africa the white man desired to start as an overseer. We had got so far away from the old ideas of apprenticeship that unless we attacked the problem from another aspect the outlook for European children in this country was very black indeed. He was fully in sympathy with the motion, for South Africa had reached a period when the problem must be taken in hand seriously, if we wished to maintain a white civilisation. One avenue of employment after another was being closed to the whites. He could not follow the hon. gentleman on the cross benches when he said that they wanted a minimum wage for this person and a minimum wage for that person, which tended to drag down everybody to the same level. The whole argument of the hon. member tended to drag the better man down to the level of the worse. He hoped the Government would put aside the question as to their capacity to deal with this matter, and try to do something serious.

said that there was one feature in this debate that he had noted with great regret, and that was that the advocacy of the motion had been largely grounded by several speakers on the fact that they must give the white man this advantage, or the coloured man would displace him. He thought this was very short-sighted. He believed that equal facilities should be given to all people. He believed so much in the inherent superiority of the European that he did not think there was any fear of his being beaten in the industrial battle.

What about the poor whites?

said he did not think the white man needed to be bolstered up as against the native or coloured worker. He thought that the coloured people and natives should be given, in accordance with the old idea prevalent in the Cape Colony, a chance of raising themselves up to our level. He hoped that if the amendment of the hon. member for Queen’s Town were carried, the claims of the native and coloured people of this country would not be disregarded. They were doing what they could for themselves and we should not hinder, but help them.

, replying on the debate, said he felt grateful to the House for the way in which they had taken this motion. There had been a tendency on the part of some of the speakers—he would not mention the cross benches, but meant those who honestly criticised it

Are we dishonest? Who are dishonest?

said that some of the speakers had taken upon themselves to depart from the motion brought before the House. His motion was that technical education must be taken up as a national one. He did not wish to imply how it should be taken up, whether through the Government, the Provincial Councils, the School Boards, and so on. That was a matter for the Minister of Education to consider. Unless this country advanced with the rest of the world in regard to industrial and technical education, the rising generation would be ousted by the importation of labour from oversea, and not only that, but the youth of this country would fall behind, and either have to leave the country or go into blind alley occupations. Something had been said as to there being a tendency for the youth of this country to neglect the opportunities which might be given. He thought the experience they had had in the Cape in regard to technical classes furnished a good answer to that. Five years ago they started with a very small number of students, while to-day there were 417 class attendances receiving technical education at the S.A. College and 850 at Salt River. They had 1,400 boys who were voluntarily coming forward and receiving technical education. Then the School Board had domestic science classes throughout the Peninsula, which were well filled with girls. He was sorry to hear some of the remarks of the hon. member for Vryheid, because he looked upon this as a national matter, and he would like to see technical education in every little town and village throughout South Africa. Vryheid should get its share as well as Cape Town. Cape Town to-day was in a most disadvantageous position because it had got no polytechnic. The right hon. gentleman the member for Victoria West often mentioned the necessity for self help. He quite agreed with him upon that point. He instanced the work done at Uitenhage and De Beers, but he did not realise the work they were doing in Cape Town. They were refused assistance by the Government, but the School Board started. They formed an Advisory Technical Committee, and the work had grown immensely. The matter had now become an established fact, no longer an experiment, and they appealed to the Government to assist them to get a suitable building for the holding of classes. All they wanted was to be assisted in the same way as Johannesburg and Durban. Then they would be in a position to help themselves. Personally, he knew that the willingness of the Minister was there, but unfortunately technical education had been passed over to the Provincial Councils, and it had to be left there for four years. He was glad to hear that the Minister had promised to appoint a technical adviser, but he would plead with him to go a step farther, and to give them a little more assistance. In regard to the statement made by the hon. member for Georgetown, it seemed to him a great pity that a matter of this sort should be used as a party matter. He had no desire to make it a party matter. The members on the cross benches should know the wants of the country, and they should be the last to taunt him with the desire to make it a party matter. The hon. member distorted what he had said, and quoted certain statements to the effect that the hon. member for Woodstock had said that technical education was necessary, so that the white man should oust the coloured man, for the white man to be technically educated. A bigger fabrication was never stated in this House, because those who knew him, would tell the hon. member that he had always favoured equal privileges both for white and coloured, and that he hoped the coloured workman would get every opportunity to advance with technical education equally as the white man. Again, with regard to the hon. member’s statement accusing him of casting aspersions upon skilled workmen, he would inform the hon. member that he never cast any aspersions upon skilled workmen of this or any other country. Far from it, he said in his introductory remarks that the skilled artisan was the most independent and best method of livelihood in the world. The remainder of the hon. member’s remarks he certainly would not take the trouble to reply to. If they had been made in a spirit of genuine criticism he would have answered them. He only hoped that it would be realised that something must be done to keep the rising generation of the country in the running with the rest of the world. (Hear, hear.)

withdrew his amendment.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the vote be taken seriatim.

The motion was agreed to.

On sub-head A, £45,198,

in reply to a point raised by Sir E. H. Walton, said there were seven Ministers at present and fourteen Departments, so that hon. members would see that not only the Prime Minister, but practically every other Minister, had more than one Department.

said the Act of Union made provision for certain Ministers not exceeding ten in number, who may hold several portfolios. When the Estimates were framed the Government had made provision for several salaried Ministers, including the Prime Minister. The House had agreed to continue the salary of the Prime Minister, and not of his ordinary portfolio. The light hon. gentleman took his salary as Prime Minister. The Minister of Finance had given an elaborate explanation the other day that the office of Prime Minister was a Department of State. There was now being held out the possibility of another Minister of Agriculture being appointed, and he wanted to draw the attention of the House to the necessity of voting a salary for that portfolio. If the Minister of Finance was to resign his office of Minister of Defence, the same position would arise. The Constitution made provision for ten salaried Ministers, and should the Prime Minister, when the House rose, find it necessary to adopt the position he adopted after last session, that of resigning the portfolio of Agriculture, simply remaining Prime Minister—which practically meant being a Minister without Portfolio—there was no provision made for the salary of the Minister of Agriculture, and afterwards to appoint such a Minister and pay him on the Governor-General’s warrant, when no provision had been made while Parliament was sitting, was not constitutional. It was not a matter that has been unforeseen by Parliament. It would be a most unconstitutional action to ask the Governor-General to sign a warrant in connection with the appointment of a Minister of Agriculture when Parliament ought to have foreseen a contingency which was evident to everybody. It was only fair that they should be told whether it was the intention to appoint a Minister of Agriculture other than the Prime Minister himself. As the matter had been raised in the House, the Governor-General would rightly refuse to sign a warrant to cover the expenditure entailed by the appointment of such a Minister.

said he wanted to be clear on the point. It seemed to him that the procedure objected to by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort would run right through. If the Minister of Education ceased to be Minister of Mines, there would be no provision made in the Estimates for the salary of the Minister of Mines, and so on. It was practically a matter of accounts. They had seven Ministers, and salaries for seven Ministers were voted. He agreed that if the Prime Minister reverted to having ten. Ministers, they would have cause for complaint, but he understood from an interjection that it was not the intention of the Prime Minister to increase the number of Ministers.

said he was not prepared to say.

said that apart from the one point mentioned by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort, it was only a matter of accounts. He would like to ask the Minister of Finance if the Public Accounts Committee, who had had the Estimates referred to them, had found fault with the salary of the Minister of Agriculture being left blank, and he would like to hear more about the constitutional aspect. He thought there would be cause for complaint if a departure was made from the present arrangement.

said that clause 14 of the Constitution said that the Governor-General may appoint officers not exceeding ten in number to administer such departments of State as the Governor-General-in-Council may determine.

There are 14 departments divided between seven Ministers.

When my hon. friend has finished I will continue. Proceeding, he said he would move an amendment, seeing there was no provision for the salary of the Minister of Agriculture, to reduce the salary of the Secretary of Agriculture by £1. If the hon. gentleman who held the position of Minister of Agriculture resigned and they appointed an extra Minister, the Government would consist of eight Ministers, while the House was only providing for seven. They would be in an extraordinary unconstitutional position if the department found itself without a Minister. He would ask the Prime Minister to make some explanation to the House.

said he did not really know whether his hon. friend was serious or not, for the position was plain. There were more portfolios or departments of State than there were Ministers. They could not pay a salary of £3,000 for each of the 14 departments; that would be a waste of money. There must be a number of the departments which carried no salary, and if during the interval after the session a change in the Cabinet took place and the office of Prime Minister was not combined with that of the Minister of Agriculture, and there was unforeseen expenditure there was the simple constitutional law on the subject.

said that if the Prime Minister resigned his office of Minister of Agriculture, as he did after last session of Parliament, the House had decided that there should only be seven paid departments of State, but they were only taking the vote for seven Ministers in the Estimates. If there was going to be a separate Minister of Agriculture they must have a vote to cover his salary.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

asked the Prime Minister whether he would not reconsider the question of local allowances during the recess. He ventured to do so because in the course of the Budget debate the Minister of Justice made the announcement that local allowances now amounted to £200,000 a year. He thought, however, that that figure was a mistake, because he had worked it out at £137,000 a year. These local allowances were not only due to the fact that the head office of the Administration was located at Pretoria, but many of these allowances were paid to officials in other parts of the Union. Let them take this vote. In the head office of the Agricultural Department there were four fewer officials than there were last year, and yet the amount for local allowances had risen from £1,980 to £2,350. The same allowance was paid to a bachelor as to a married man. The minimum was £36, and the maximum £100, with the result that the bigger salary a man drew the bigger was his allowance, and that did not seem to him to be a satisfactory way of dealing with this matter. Let him take, as an example, two officers each drawing £400 a year. They were transferred to Pretoria. One was a bachelor and the other a married man, and having been moved to a more expensive place they were given local allowances on a similar scale. The difference in the cost of living to the bachelor was very trifling, if indeed anything at all; in the case of a married man he understood that the difference was very much greater. (Hear, hear.) Yet they both drew the same allowance, and the more salary they got, the more would be their local allowance, and with these annual increments he thought this vote for local allowances was going to assume very large proportions. What was more serious was the fact that they had no control. Let him refer his right hon. friend to the next vote, which revealed a very serious state of affairs. There were eight more clerical assistants and three assistant sheep inspectors, but the local allowances in that branch had jumped from £560 to £1,424, or nearly three times as much. These figures seemed to give good ground for an inquiry into the whole of this matter. They could not do anything with the Estimates before them, but he hoped the Prime Minister would assure the House that during the recess this matter would be gone into with the aid, perhaps, of the Public Service Commission, because he was certain if these votes came before them with these large increases and without explanatory notes as was the case in these Estimates, Parliament would have to go very rigidly into these items in future. The increase in the sheep department was very large indeed. He might be taunted with the observation that he did not put forward any scheme for reduction, but he could not do it now because the State had already made this bargain with public servants.

supported the proposal that the right hon. gentleman should go into these matters during the recess. He pointed out that while local allowances were given to officials at Harrismith, none were given to officials at Paulpietersburg. The fact was that local allowances were not given to men who were farther away from the coast and who had to pay more for what they required.

said that by the large local allowances Pretoria was receiving a bad name, which was totally undeserved. Living was a little dearer there than in Cape Town, but the difference was not material. Some officials who had kept a careful account of expenses had told him that Pretoria was no more expensive than Cape Town. Another matter he wished to draw attention to was that both the Secretary for Agriculture and the Assistant Secretary for Agriculture, during the session of Parliament were in Cape Town, so that no responsible official was at Pretoria. Was it necessary, he asked, for both to be in Cape Town at the same time? Matters would have to be arranged so that there was no room for complaint.

asked how the increments which appeared in the votes were calculated. He pointed out the chief clerk, who received £550, with a yearly increment of £20, had suddenly gone up to £610. The two principal clerks, with £920 between them and an annual increment of £40 between them, had been increased by £80. Then the assistant accountant, whose full salary was £500, had had his salary calculated at £547. The ordinary increments that were allowed did not tally with those that appeared on the Estimates.

said that he was a disappointed man. He had had an idea that after three years an attempt would have been made to set up a living branch of the Agricultural Department in his constituency, which would help the people forward. He agreed that there must be a central authority to settle questions of policy, but there should be living branches in different parts of the country to carry out that policy.

There was another matter that he and many others complain about, and that was that they had no information about agricultural matters. This was the one department in which there should be the fullest and most complete information issued as promptly as possible for the benefit of the country parts. Any information which they got had to be drawn out of the Government. No record was kept of deaths from East Coast fever. In March of last year he put a motion on the paper, and somehow or other the Department was then able to make a reply. For some reason it was not thought necessary to keep any further account. He had asked for the number of cattle which had died from inoculation. In a roundabout way the return which he got went so far as to show that 192,000 cattle had been inoculated for East Coast fever. The statement was also made that 35 per cent. survived. He had worked it out that about 125,000 died from inoculation. All this and similar information ought to be published broadcast over the country.

said he noticed an item of “ Investigation of bars in ostrich feathers. £240.” He would like to know whether a report had ever been issued as the result of these investigations?

said he would like to put a question to the Minister of Agriculture about the order of responsibility in the Agricultural Department. He would like the Minister to tell them where responsibility began and where it ended. It was a most difficult thing if anything went wrong to fix the responsibility on any officer of the Department.

said that the hon. member for Tembuland had complained that he did not get any information about the Agricultural Department. In the Blue-Book in his hands there was a great deal of information, but it did not refer to last year, but to the year before last. He could understand that there might be some difficulty in getting out such a ponderous return as this if the Department were handicapped for clerical assistance, but he found that there were 142 clerks in the Department. It did seem to some of them that that was a large number of clerks considering the number of men employed on scientific work, and one could not help feeling that with a little more organisation a smaller number of clerks and a larger number of experts might be employed. He would also like to know why the advantageous terms upon which farmers formerly obtained supplies of bone meal for the treatment of lamziekte had not been continued.

said it was very unsatisfactory that the reports of the Agricultural Department should be so belated, and it was also much to be regretted that they should be published during the session when members had so little time to study them. The reports were in future, he believed, to be brought up to the end of the financial year, March 31, and he did not see why they should not be issued by the end of the following September. He would also like to call attention to a case which occurred in the Department some time ago. A capable man, who was connected with the accounts in the Agricultural Department in Natal, was brought up to Pretoria, and so efficient was he, and so anxious to push on the work of the accounting branch, that his subordinates mutinied, and, although he was not forty years of age, he was placed on pension. He thought that that was an extremely unsatisfactory state of affairs.

What was his name?

His name was Armstrong.

said he would like to ask the Minister, in view of the conflicting reports which they had received, more especially from Bradford, whether he still persisted in recommending the use of lime and sulphur and caustio soda dips.

drew attention to the amount to be paid as subsidies to agricultural societies, namely, £19,000. If these amounts had in future to be paid by the Provincial Councils, he hoped that the Provinces would be given some sources from which they could derive this money. Was the amount handed over to the Provincial Councils? In regard to the amount of £600 for the prevention of cruelty to animals, he urged that something should be done to prevent such cruelty. In the small villages, he held, horses would never be kept so long in harness as they were here in Cape Town. In regard to the contribution of £272 to the International Institute of Agriculture in Rome, the hon. member wished to know what advantages were enjoyed as a result of that subscription.

said farmers were compelled to dip the cattle in caustic soda and sulphur, which he said was detrimental to sheep arid was causing great damage. Would the Minister go into the question and settle it once for all?

said he would like to have an assurance from the Prime Minister that all sheep in any infected district should not be allowed to leave the district without first being inspected by the inspector of the district.

pointed out that questions dealing with sheep would come under the next heading.

said he saw an amount of £150 put down for the administration of the Adulteration Act. This Act would shortly be extended to the whole of the Union, and surely the sum of £150 was quite insufficient for the administration of this Act. Of course, he knew that a great deal of assistance would be given by the Excise Department, and he wanted to know whether the Prime Minister considered this amount sufficient.

desired to know whether item A3, “Grantsin-Aid” should not be eliminated.

thought an alteration should be made in regard to the salaries of field cornets.

said this matter fell under a different heading.

replying said the question of local allowances had been fixed in accordance with the recommendations of the Civil Service Commission. On the question of the presence in Cape Town of the two heads of the Agricultural Department, the intention was that one permanent head should be here and one in Pretoria, and that would be done in future. Replying to the remarks by Mr. Schreiner, the Minister said it was difficult for the department to produce a list as to the number of cattle which had died whilst under treatment by the Department, because they had to deal not only with East Coast fever, but also with horses dying of horse sickness, sheep which died of bluetongue, etc., and to draw up lists of this kind would require large numbers of officials. They would, however, very soon have a statistical bureau to deal with the matter. The means for obtaining the information required were not as yet in existence. As regarded the question of vaccination they had only vaccinated there originally where the disease had broken out. Subsequently, however, a different attitude had been taken up. In districts where East Coast fever prevailed, and where dipping was impossible, the cattle were inoculated, with the result that 40 per cent. were saved, and they were able to ride transport with those animals. The bars referred to in the Estimates had nothing to do with Barbary ostriches, but were certain blemishes in ostrich feathers, which were under the investigation of an expert at Graham’s Town, for which purpose £240 had been set aside. Replying to the hon. member for Border, the Prime Minister said that, in the first place, the Minister was the responsible person, and, secondly, the Secretary for Agriculture, then the Assistant Secretary, and then the heads of the different sections. In regard to bone meal, this was a commodity which could be bought in shops, and the Agricultural Department could hardly be expected to put up shops or become a commercial undertaking. The sale by the Department of barbed wire had been stopped last year. In regard to the question of the reports of the department, he had pointed out last year that, with the amalgamation of the four departments of the Union, matters had been delayed, but it was hoped next year to bring the report out early. As regarded the pensioning of Mr. Armstrong, he regretted that the hon. member had mentioned the name of this official. Although Mr. Armstrong was a good accountant, he had been unable to cope with the work of such a great department, which had proved to be above him. Mr. Armstrong himself had felt that he could not progress with the work, and had asked to be retrenched. Another official from the Free State who was receiving £1,000 a year at the time when Union was accomplished, had subsequently been put at the head of the accounting department, and the work had since gone on well.

Dealing with the question of dipping with lime and sulphur and caustic soda, the Government was sending an expert to England to go into the whole matter of the wool being damaged by such dips or not. There was no doubt that dips of that kind were very effective for the destruction of the parasite. As soon as the report of the expert had been received, farmers would be advised. The simultaneous dipping had now stopped, but he hoped that where scab had broken out, they would be able to use the dip which had proved most effective. Their object was to use a dip which was the least poisonous, and at the same time the most effective. In regard to the question of subsidies to agricultural societies, he wished to point out that it was optional for the Provinces to take such subsidies in their own hand. As to the contribution to the International Institute in Rome, he pointed out that valuable investigations were being made every year by that institute, and the contribution was being made so that this country might profit from the results of these investigations in the form of reports and statistics. Replying to the hon. member for Worcester, General Botha replied that a further sum of £250 had been placed on the Supplementary Estimates for the purpose of carrying out the Adulteration Act. The Excise Department would co-operate with the Department of Agriculture to that end.

made a reference to the decentralisation of the department, and asked if it was in the mind of the Minister that the branches were never to be broken up?

called attention to the odd amount of the salary of the Assistant Accountant (£547), and asked why the scale of salaries recommended by the Civil Service Commission should be departed from?

thought the point raised was a very important one, and he was of opinion that the scale recommended should not be departed from. In regard to the accounting officer, the story told by the Minister of Agriculture that evening was different from the story he had heard, which was that the officer had been brought from the Free State at £850 per year and placed in charge of that department at £1,000 a year in the Transvaal. The Minister would find some comments, in the report of the Public Accounts Committee, which would give him a painful surprise, and it was far from being satisfied with regard to getting the accounts square. The opinion was that it was not owing to his health that the officer wished to be placed on pension, but owing to the fact that in the department he had found such resistance to getting the accounts straightened, that he had thrown it up in disgust. The hon. member also suggested that the same plan should be followed in regard to agricultural societies as in regard to libraries and museums, so that it was shown what each received.

referred to the item, “messenger, 3s. 6d. a day.”

He’s a lad.

I don’t care whether he is a lad or not. He cannot live on that sum. The hon. member also drew attention to messengers receiving a salary from £36 to £60 per annum, the annual increment being 10s. In regard to the employment of poor whites on the railway it had been stated that they got such low pay to keep them from starvation, but he did not think that the Minister of Agriculture would say that these jobs had been manufactured to find these messengers work at such a fearfully low sum.

wished to know the meaning of the item, £600 for prevention of cruelty to animals.

referred to the item, “Investigation of bars in ostrich feathers,” and went on to say that the ostrich feather industry was of little use to the country. There was not much of the money that was spent by people overseas in buying ostrich feathers finding itself into the pockets of the people of this country. The people who were employed in that industry were very few, as far as the whites were concerned. He protested against the spending of that money to increase the bank balances of the people who owned these ostriches.

said that the salaries as they appeared now on the list for 1913-14 did not always agree with the scales which had been put down earlier, and his hon. friend knew the reason why. It was that these scales were fixed by the Public Service Commission as permanent salaries paid for these posts, but these were cases of officers who before Union had been on different scales and whose salaries and scales were being maintained.

That should be explained on the Estimates; how are we to know?

It has been explained over and over again. Proceeding, he said that last year they had the report of the Public Service Commission, which had made the whole matter clear. In many cases they had that anomaly, that the actual salaries drawn did not square with the scale, and the explanation was that they did not want to interfere with the existing scales.

Those are all personal salaries.

That is the salary which the man is actually drawing. He went on to say that the matter was explained very fully in the general report of the Public Service Commission of the previous years. In all these cases the salaries had been approved by the Public Service Commission, and it would take a large number of years before all the men were on these permanent scales. Continuing, he said that fencing had ceased to be a departmental item, similarly with cold storage. Last year the receipts were £2,000, but the cold storages at Maritzburg and Standerton had been closed, and that source of revenue had dried up. There were a large number of items paid formerly for pre-Union advances in respect to sheep, and all that was paid last year, and that was why the receipts seemed so much smaller this year than they were last year.

said the messenger receiving 3s. 6d. per day was a temporary messenger. Most of these messengers were young men who replaced Kafirs, and to whom they had wished to give a chance, as many young people as possible were being taken into the service.

asked for an explanation with regard to this sum of £240 for bars and ostrich feathers. He agreed with the hon. member for Springs that it might be wise for the Government to assist a struggling industry, but the ostrich feather industry was not one of these. It would be just as reasonable for the gold mines of the Witwatersrand to ask the Government to contribute money in order to ascertain by experiment whether gold could be extracted from tailings. He wanted to know why the ostrich feather industry could not pay for these investigations.

said the Prime Minister had already explained the point. The vote merely paid the out-of-pocket expenses in connection with the investigations at Graham’s Town.

asked whether the Government attached any conditions to the grants to agricultural societies that they should maintain a certain standard and employ only thoroughly qualified judges. Referring to what had happened at recent shows, he said that one might get a first prize in one place and be lucky to get a third in another. Decisions at Bloemfontein and Johannesburg were reversed. He went on to deal with the question of sheep, and said that in some cases judges were appointed who, perhaps, inclined to one variety, and would not look at another. It was perfectly hopeless. The Witwatersrand Society got out one of the most competent Irish judges of horses. With exquisite judgment he gave the first prize to a Government horse. (Laughter.) The Government also won at Bloemfontein with another horse. He thought the Government might offer an inducement or press the Agricultural Society to offer an inducement to one of the best recognised judges of sheep in Australia. Considering Australia’s position in the world, he thought a lot of good would be done if they could get out, even for a couple of months, an acknowledged judge of first quality to judge sheep here. He was certain they would learn something.

replying to the hon. member for Heidelberg (Mr. Bezuidenhout), said that the contribution for the prevention of cruelty to animals was made to a society looking after this matter. The society was doing good work, but ought to be more active. Replying to the hon. member for Pretoria, East (Sir Percy Fitzpatrick), he said it was, of course, impossible to get two judges who thought exactly the same. He thought the societies should divide the various classes of sheep and have Rambouillet and other classes shown separately. He thought they had fairly good Australian sheep experts in South Africa, and when the young men at present studying in Australia came back, he thought they would have a number of further experts who would make good judges. Replying to the hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Schreiner), the Minister of Agriculture held that one good central control was essential. It was impossible to have a number of small departments all over the country. The Transkei was being treated the same as other districts, and they could not establish a branch there, as that would reproduce the pre-Union system. Inquiry into the best methods of fighting cattle diseases had to take place locally.

The sub-head was agreed to.

moved the reduction of the salary of the Chief Veterinary Surgeon by £50, so as to give the Prime Minister an opportunity of making explanation in regard to the position of the districts still under quarantine for East Coast fever. He said that although dipping tanks had been erected in accordance with the new Act there were districts which for the last eleven or twelve years had been under quarantine. The action of the Chief Veterinary Surgeon had been severely criticised, and several applications for release from quarantine had been refused. He hoped the Prime Minister would now take steps and have the matter left in the hands of the Magistrates or local veterinary surgeons. He held that an inspection should be made at the dipping tanks to see that the cattle were properly dipped. Quarantine should now be abolished, so that the building of dipping tanks would be encouraged.

said he noticed from the papers that the districts of Elliot and Maclear had decided to co-operate with the Government. He noticed, however, that there were some native districts which were not yet clean, and he hoped the Prime Minister would see what could be done. He had seen several letters showing that the people in Elliot were not dipping their cattle. Then there was the question of slapziekte, which was highly infectious. He hoped the Minister would look into the matter and send a veterinary surgeon to look into this disease. A number of lambs were now dying of the disease.

drew attention to the item of £418, for the clothing of guards on the Natal—O.F.S. border. If these guards were being still maintained there, what on earth were they to do? People could not move cattle without a permit, and if that were so, what was the need of having these guards upon the border? Perhaps these men may have been forgotten, and nobody knew whether they were there or not.

wished to know what steps had been taken to protect this country against the outbreak of rinderpest, which he heard had broken out in German South-west Africa.

agreed with the hon. member for Zoutpansberg that the local veterinary surgeons should be advised by the local magistrates and police in cases where the disease had been practically eradicated. Many complaints that had been heard were unfounded, but many were well founded, and should be looked into. What seemed most remarkable to him, however, was that the disease (East Coast fever) got so easily through the quarantine lines, and returned to a district which had for a long time been free. He urged that the police officials should be more strictly supervised, and that more power should be given to the magistrates.

said with regard to compensation paid for the slaughtering of diseased stock, he had been informed that it was sometimes the custom to cut away the diseased parts and use the rest for human food. Would it not be wiser, he said, to pay double the amount of compensation and save human beings from eating this cattle. He hoped the Minister would inquire into this, because the modern idea was that no portion of a diseased animal should be used for human consumption.

rose to draw the attention of the House to a great injustice suffered by the people of Cala. That district was a clean one, so far as the East Coast fever was concerned. It adjoined an infected area on the one side, but on the other side was the district of Elliot, which was not infected. In that district permits had all along been allowed to be issued for the removal of cattle with a certificate of having been dipped, but in the district of Cala those permits had been refused. A large proportion of the population in Cala were natives, whereas the adjoining district was largely populated by Europeans. He would like to know why there was that differentiation? The people of Cala were rightly aggrieved about the difference which was being made, for it was a very practical question with them. He was informed that there was at least £20,000 worth of cattle in the Cala district which could be disposed of, but they were being sold at 50s., instead of from £8 to £10, as the result of the partial administration which was being carried out. At the present moment nobody in Cala could get a permit to send cattle to the railway, which was only a few miles off. The people would not object to this if there was East Coast fever there, but they did object to being treated in a differential way. If East Coast fever did get to Cala the people would be ruined, while if they were allowed to dispose of their cattle as in Elliot they would save something.

supported the contentions of the hon. member for Woodstock, and said they had seen alarming reports regarding diseased meat which was offered to the public. The same position of affairs occurred in other large centres of population than Cape Town, and he thought they should have a statement from the Government as to what steps they had taken, through their large army of veterinary surgeons and supervisors, to prevent such a state of affairs. As the Medical Officer of Health for Cape Town had pointed out, it was not possible to tell from the look of the meat whether it was sound or diseased. Those who came down to the Cape for five or six months in the year should not have their health prejudiced by the sale of diseased meat.

said a district under East Coast fever quarantine meant thousands of pounds damage to the inhabitants of the district. If there was East Coast fever, people were always prepared to submit to strict regulations; but lately people were beginning to doubt all the so-called cases of East Coast fever, and to be sceptical as to the ability of the Department to master the disease. The officials of the department of the Chief Veterinary Surgeon should be careful not to mix up other symptoms with East Coast fever symptoms. He pointed to a case where a calf had suddenly died, the cause of death being stated to be East Coast fever. In, just under two years not a single other animal died, but then another calf died, and the cause was again said to be East Coast fever. He thought they should be very careful, and see whether East Coast fever was actually the cause. Was it quite certain there were no other diseases, the symptoms of which closely resembled East Coast fever?

referred to the prevalence of Rhodesia red-water, and said that, without the co-operation of the public, the veterinary surgeons could do nothing. It was not possible to carry out the quarantine regulations unless branding was made compulsory. That had been done in the Transvaal, but was abolished.

objected to people in the Free State having to get permits in connection with East Coast fever from Pretoria, while across the Vaal permits could be granted by local authorities.

could not be followed in the Press Gallery.

drew attention to the enormous number of men employed, and to the very heavy cost of transport and travelling (£12,030); while for maintenance, East Coast fever transport, there was another £1,000 down on the Estimates.

said that he would like to hear what was the eventual policy of the Government with regard to East Coast fever. East Coast fever was a thing that had come to stay, and it was not going to pass away very quickly. It seemed to him that in districts where East Coast fever existed, not only were fresh regulations put into force, but they did not know what would happen. He did not think it was known what inconvenience farmers had to put up with in regard to East Coast fever regulations. He represented districts which were very anxious to protect themselves from East Coast fever. Many farmers dipped regularly, yet they were restricted in every possible way. In the first session of the Union Parliament he brought forward a Bill which, after all his experience of East Coast fever, he thought was the right thing. He did not then attempt to deal with ticks on private farms, but he thought that if they could punish anybody who took cattle infected with ticks into public places that would be a measure of protection. He was still of that mind, because it would encourage dips and the dipping of cattle. The restrictions fell heavily on the man who tried to carry out the law, and though the Government provided a restriction they never provided officials to carry them out. The people who were handicapped were the people who tried to carry out the law, while the lawbreakers got off scot free. The administration seemed to be different in different districts, and he thought it depended almost entirely on the veterinary surgeon. He would like the Minister to bear in mind that the disease had come to stay, and they had the highest authority for the statement that the disease was communicated by ticks. Were they going on always with these restrictions, or was there any prospect of the restrictions being lightened as more dips were constructed, cattle more frequently dipped, and ticks disappeared in different districts. The Komgha district was free, and yet the people there were not allowed to sell cattle to the people of the East London district unless these cattle were slaughtered within two days. He thought that was utterly foolish. The restrictions were made to protect people, and not to inconvenience them, and he again impressed upon the Prime Minister the fact that the disease was going to stay.

said in regard to the request of the hon. member for Zoutpansberg, he wished to remark that the East Coast fever restrictions in Zoutpansberg were not so severe by a long way as in the past. They could not be removed altogether, because East Coast fever had not quite disappeared. Most of the applications for the removal of the restrictions and for trekking permits were from speculators, who did not even live in Zoutpansberg. The disease was an extremely dangerous one, and owing to the ignorance of the people originally as to the causes of the disease it had spread in the Transvaal considerably. However, through the co-operation of the people in the Transvaal they had subsequently been able to do excellent work, and the disease had been driven away without using dipping tanks. (Hear, hear.) When a calf died the bloodsmears were sent to Dr. Theiler at the laboratory at Pretoria, and if the officials were certain that they were dealing with East Coast fever the necessary restrictions had to be imposed. If it were found that the animal died of East Coast fever, what was the speaker to do? He was bound to protect the public. The restrictions were not promulgated in order to please the department, but simply to protect the farmers. He hoped the time was near when the Transvaal would be altogether free of the disease. Where dipping was properly carried out every possible facility under a system of permits would be given. In this connection, however, he wished to refer to what had happened at Elliot, where a permit had been granted to a farmer to trek with his cattle to Whittlesea. The hon. member for Queen’s Town on that occasion had moved the adjournment of the House because a farmer had been allowed to trek with his cattle from an infected area. He could assure the House that the Chief Veterinary Surgeon was an extremely capable man, who would do his utmost for the benefit of the country. The hon. member for Border had referred to a foolish regulation in connection with the slaughtering of healthy animals. It was owing to the non-application of that report that Boksburg had been infected. Replying to an interruption by Mr. Schreiner, the Minister said that all round Cala the disease had broken out. He could not allow a few people whose cattle might still be clean to trek freely until everything was safe. Let them erect dipping tanks and dip, and he would give them every possible facility. The trouble was that even at the present moment they had not yet got the necessary co-operation of the people living in the vicinity of infected areas. It was impossible to give permits freely all over the country. The guards on the Drakensberg, between the Free State and Natal had been much diminished in number. Most of them were removed. They had been put there to protect the Free State, and they could not suddenly abolish all the regulations. In regard to the outbreak of rinderpest in German West Africa, he pointed out that a conference had recently been held in Rhodesia as to what were the best means of preventing the spread of the disease, and the necessary precautions had been taken, including the supply of serum for 40,000 or 50,000 cattle In regard to the question of bad meat, he wished to point out that this had nothing to do with his department, except in connection with the slaughter of animals infected with East Coast fever. The matter fell under the Department of Public Health. They paid compensation for cattle which died as a result of East Coast fever. The right to issue permits locally was allowed for the transport of cattle within the Provinces whilst other permits were given out by the Chief Veterinary Surgeon. Dr. Theiler was at present inquiring into the subject of hair-worm, and had issued a pamphlet on the subject. The number of cattle inspectors had been substantially diminished. Replying to the criticisms by Mr. Jagger, the Minister of Agriculture said he had done his utmost to bring about economy in regard to the question of stock inspectors. At the time of Union the expenditure of the Agricultural Department was £200,000 higher than to-day, that was to say the expenditure of the four Provinces was £200,000 higher than to-day. He would, however, do his utmost to economise wherever possible, and further economy was possible. It was better to appoint experts than clerks.

said he pointed out that the objection raised by the hon. member for Queen’s Town was not that a permit had not been given, but that these cattle were ordered to be quarantined, and could not be quarantined. He was advised that cattle were being removed from Elliot and by permit, and that that privilege was refused to the Cala people, and he contended that this was unfair and unjust, as the two districts are in the same condition, and should be treated in the same way.

asked whether he understood the Prime Minister to say that if farmers would co-operate with him it would be possible to put a check upon East Coast fever, and they would get permits. What he wanted to know, however, was what use was being made of the powers for compulsory dipping. Many of them thought that no advance would be made until all the ticks had been destroyed. Unless they exercised these powers resolutely and properly, there would not be any remedy to put an end to East Coast fever, and all the time they would be harried by people asking that these restrictions should be relaxed.

said that the difficulty of making the matter compulsory was that people did not yet realise the seriousness of the disease, and unless they had the co-operation of the people they would achieve nothing. They were obliged, therefore, to act according to circumstances. To-day meetings were continually held in the Maclear and Elliot districts, where resolutions objecting to the restrictions were passed. These meetings were attended by 500 people. How could he possibly prosecute all these people? One could lead these people, but they could not force them. By tactful administration they would succeed, and even to-day a great improvement was noticeable, as a large number of dipping tanks had been erected. Not all the farmers understood the gravity of the disease as did the hon. member for Pretoria, East.

said that the same doctrine was advocated in 1894, in connection with scab, in the Parliament of the Cape of Good Hope. As a result, £16,000 was wasted in trying to enadicate scab, because they tried to do it in a sympathetic manner. It was going to lead to a similar result unless the Minister of Agriculture was going to make up his mind to enforce compulsory dipping, for it was not contrary to the interests of that section of the people why were law-abiding. Surely the first people who ought to be considered were the progressive farmers of the country, whose interests should be placed above those who would not recognise the gravity of the situation. If the Minister would adopt that idea, he would have the vast majority of the Dutch and English farmers behind him. Referring to an interjection by the hon. member for Wodehouse, he said the hon. gentleman should go and tell his people the position that they must abide by the law. If they did that, they would soon do away with the present state of affairs. If they persevered with their present policy, nothing would be done. Nothing was done in connection with the Scab Act under sympathetic administration, and nothing would be done regarding the stamping out of East Coast fever. While Parliament passed the law, the Government should take the responsibility of forcing it whatever the consequences might be.

deprecated the remarks in regard to the canvassing for votes. He would assure Sir Thomas Smartt that the people he represented were extremely anxious to have scab eradicated. He wanted the hon. member to realise that the same conditions did not prevail everywhere, and the Minister should be left his discretion, and if the remedy was worse than the evil, what was the use of forcing the remedy? The farmers saw that the disease had got to be eradicated, but they also saw that the Minister must be allowed to use a certain discretion.

said a distinction should be made between Elliot and Cala. In the one district the disease had never broken out, and the other district was infected. Why, he Went on, had the hon. member for Fort Beaufort not taken up the inflexible attitude which he now advocated when he was at the head of affairs from 1894 to 1908? If there was one complaint against the Government it was not that they were too lax but that they were too strict. At the same time, the Government realised that there were a number of farmers who knew what they had to do. There were quite a number of progressive farmers in his district, and a resolution had now been passed by the Distrikts Bestuur to support the policy of the Prime Minister with regard to simultaneous dipping. He was sure that if matters were allowed to go on for a while, everything would come right. (Hear, hear.)

said that what he had said was that if they took the farmers of that district the great majority would be in favour of enforcing the most stringent regulations for the prevention of these diseases. But for other reasons they took the advice of a certain section of the people who were not prepared to go forward, and that was the reason why they had that disease amongst them always. There was no use putting legislation into force to deal with stock diseases if the Government were not prepared to take the responsibility of administering, in the most stringent manner, that legislation for the purpose of ridding the country of a disease which was hampering pastoral operations to the greatest extent.

said he took strong objections to the remarks made by the hon. member. That Government had no intention of canvassing votes. They wanted to govern the country fairly and not by means of the sjambok. The hon. member did not know what he was talking about. He did not know how many men had been sent to that part of the country to get matters right. He (Sir Thos. Smartt) had been responsible for governing that part of the country much longer than he had been, and in those years he had never taken up an attitude such as he now favoured. Had he in these days been engaged in canvassing votes? The disease was no longer spreading, and if the hon. member had brought it to a stand sooner, the disease would never have gone as far as it had. If the hon. member wished to criticise the Government, let him do so fairly. It was impossible for the Government to prosecute all these people for not building a tank or neglecting to dip their cattle. If they ddi, a revolution would be caused, and the hon. member would be the first to curse the Government. Most of the eastern districts were represented by members of the Opposition, and it was just those districts which gave the speaker the most trouble.

said that it was 2½ years ago since he had warned the House that East Coast fever was going to trickle down from Natal, through the Native Territories, to the Cape Province; and it had come. It was 2½ years since they had said that the only thing to do was to have dipping. He thought that by that time they ought to have learnt the lesson. He thought the Prime Minister was considering people, if not votes, when he said there would be a revolution. Was the Prime Minister going to let the 500 people spread the disease? All the Prime Minister wanted was courage to enlist on his side those people of commonsense—and they were in the majority—and say that there must be compulsory dipping.

said that now the farmers of Natal thought no more of East Coast fever than measles. It had almost disappeared. When 2½ years ago the hon. member for Pretoria, East, spoke on the matter, he thought that he had a splendid grasp of the situation, and if he had been Minister of Agriculture all this trouble would have been averted. If the Prime Minister went on in the way he was going they would have the disease at Cape Town before long.

said he did ask hon. members who opposed the suggestion made by the hon. member for Pretoria, East, to allow him to speak to them as a friend who had had a serious experience. He lived in the very thick of East Coast fever when it broke out. Very many objected to dipping at all and especially compulsory dipping. For 3½ years he was chairman of the local committee and also of the central committee, which included all the district committees. He assisted, as far as he was able, to stay the spread of the disease. They were not unanimous in dipping, and the consequence was that the disease spread, devastated their district, and swept off all the cattle. He would advise hon. members to submit to the Government’s regulations in that respect, to follow the course advocated by the hon. member for Pretoria, East, and agree to compulsory dipping.

said that the Transkeian Territories had given an example to the rest of the country in the building of tanks and carrying out of dipping operations, and compulsory dipping had been carried out there.

said that there was another disease now spreading very rapidly through this country, that dipping would not cure. He was referring to the parsimonious treatment which the Government was meting out to its public servants. The Minister of Agriculture, when he (Mr. Madeley) referred to the people getting 3s. 6d. a day,

said that that was not a man,

but a boy, and temporarily employed. If that 3s. 6d. a day chap was a boy, this case he would refer to was a baby in arms. He found that the messenger was allowed the magnificent salary of £21 a year— 1s. 4d. a day. There were five messengers provided for in this vote. Four of these messengers got 2s. 4d. a day, rising to 3s. 10d. This was very significant when they came to compare that with the amount received by native constables, drivers, and leaders, who received £36 a year. The significance of this was still further increased when they compared the amounts received as supervisors of slaughter-houses, stock inspectors, branding supervisors, and European constables, who got from £20, rising to £187 a year. Surely they would not allow the Prime Minister to perpetrate this, which he called a crime.

The sub-head was agreed to.

Progress was reported, and leave granted to sit again to-morrow.