, from J. J. Nieman and 20 others, inhabitants of the district of Winburg, praying that gates’s may be placed at railway crossings, or for other relief.

from, Eugene M. F. de Larue, a member of the Augustinian Order of Nuns, Durban, who has been engaged in teaching in Natal since 1894, but who forfeited her pension rights through failing to register her name fin accordance with the provisions of Act No. 31 of 1910 (Natal), praying for consideration and relief.

, from J. F. Bartman and 102 others, inhabitants of Cradock, praying for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Veto, whereby men and women may decide by ballot on the continuance, reduction or issue of liquor licences, or for other relief.

brought up the report of the Select Committee on the Treatment of Lunatics.

It was agreed that the report, together with the evidence, should be printed and set down for consideration on Wednesday, May 14.

brought up the sixth report of the Select Committee on Public Accounts.

It was agreed that the report, together with the evidence, should be printed and set down for consideration on Monday next.

Tender Board Regulations for the Union (Exclusive of Railways and Harbours).

Supplementary Estimate of Expenditure of the South African Railways and Harbours Fund to be defrayed during the year ending 31st March, 1914.

It was agreed that the Estimates be referred to Committee of Supply.

moved that the first order of the day, second reading, Natives Land Bill, should be discharged and set down for Friday next.

The motion was agreed to.

moved for leave to give evidence before a Select Committee of the Senate.

The motion was agreed to.

also moved for similar leave.

The motion was agreed to.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention has been directed to the congestion in the Magistrates’ Courts on the Rand, resulting in numbers of cases being remanded from week to week; and (2) what steps are being taken to remedy this state of things?

replied: (1) and (2) I have made inquiries, and find that at none of the Rand Courts except Johannesburg and Krugersdorp is there any congestion, and at those two centres only in regard to criminal cases. The Public Service Commission has consented to the additional staff required at Johannesburg to establish a fifth criminal court, which court has already started sitting from the 2nd inst. At Krugersdorp the position will be sufficiently met by giving aid in prosecution, and instructions have been issued accordingly.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) Whether his attention has been called to certain communications made by the Secretaries of the Johannesburg Consolidated Investment Company and the Witwatersrand Townships Estate and Finance Company to the Local Government Commission now sitting in the Transvaal and to certain other letters from the Johannesburg Town Clerk and the Registrar of Deeds, Pretoria; (2) whether he is aware that it appears from these letters that whereas the Johannesburg Consolidated Investment Company paid transfer duty on certain property acquired by them on a value of only £45,638 13s. 4d., they now state their books show that the actual consideration paid for these properties was £528,695 3s. 5d.; (3) whether he is aware that it further appears that the Witwatersrand Townships Estate and Finance Company paid transfer duty on certain property acquired by them on a valuation of £40,000, and now state on the evidence of their books that the consideration paid for the property was £174,000; (4) whether it was stated on oath to the Leasehold Townships Commission by the representative of the purchasers that the amount paid for the property referred to in paragraph (3) hereof, was £528,000; (5) whether similar discrepancies occur in the properties bought by the Braamfontein Company and Lourens Geldenhuys mentioned in the letter of the Registrar of Deeds between the amount on which transfer duty was paid and the amount actually paid; (6) whether the Government will take immediate steps to ascertain whether the statements now made by these purchasers are true; and in such event (a) institute immediate criminal proceedings against those who swore the affidavits of Valuation on which transfer was paid; and (b) take steps to recover the amounts of transfer duty underpaid with interest to date; (7) if the present statements by these purchasers are untrue, whether the Government will institute criminal proceedings against the witness who stated on oath to the Leasehold Townships Commission that the amount paid for the Berea and Doornfontein Townships was £528,000, and whether they will take such other steps as may be in their power to bring to punishment those who have wilfully endeavoured to deceive the Local Government Commission as to these purchase prices?

said that he was making inquiries with reference to this matter, and would inform the House later.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) How many railway employees at Kimberley and Vryburg occupy houses or quarters belonging to the Government, and how many have to find accommodation for themselves; (2) is there any difference in the local allowance paid to employees occupying Government houses or quarters and those who are not provided with such accommodation; and (3) at which, if any, stations on the Fourteen Streams Potchefstroom line, including Potchefstroom station, is local allowance paid to the railway employees?

replied: (1) 78 employees at Kimberley and 20 at Vryburg occupy railway quarters. 222 employees at Kimberley and 2 at Vryburg are not accommodated in railway quarters. (2) The reply to this question is in the negative. (3) A local allowance is paid at all stations between. Fourteen Streams, exclusive, and Potchefstroom, inclusive.

for Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick (Pretoria, East) asked the Minister of the Interior whether there is any foundation for the statement that it is intended to amalgamate the various Deeds Offices of the Union, and to establish one central Deeds Office in Cape Town?

replied: I have never heard of any such statement having been made. The intentions of the Government are plainly indicated in clause 3 of the Bill now before the House to consolidate and amend the laws in force in the Union relating to the registration of deeds, to which I would refer the honourable member.

, for Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick (Pretoria, East), asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) What branches (exclusive of the purely executive branches) of the Posts and Telegraphs Department are still in Cape Town or elsewhere than in Pretoria; (2) what is the number of officers in each branch; (3) why these branches have not been removed to Pretoria in terms of the Act of Union; and (4) if they have not been removed for lack of accommodation in Pretoria, whether he will take the necessary steps for their removal in June next, when most of the Government Departments will be moved into the Union Buildings, leaving plenty of room for them in existing Government buildings in the town itself?

replied: (1) and (2) The following branches of the Posts and Telegraphs Department (exclusive of purely executive branches) are still at Cape Town or elsewhere than Pretoria: Branch: Accounts, number of officers 43: Money Order, 33; Savings Bank, 55; Telegraph Message Audit, 39: total number of officers, 170. All these officers are in Cape Town, excepting 10, who are employed in the Savings Bank at Pietermaritzburg. (3) and (4) In all, 100 officers of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs have, in accordance with the South Africa Act, been transferred from Cape Town, Bloemfontein, and Pietermaritzburg to Pretoria since 31st May, 1910, and it is the intention of the Government to transfer the remaining officers, excepting about 50, who are required for public convenience in Cape Town, and 10 in Pietermaritzburg, as soon as accommodation in Pretoria is available.

asked the Minister of Defence: (1) Whether it is the intention of the Government to disband the Natal Royal Regiment; and (2) whether His Majesty’s sanction has been obtained to the disbandment of this regiment, and if not, why not?

replied: It is the intention of the Government, acting on the recommendation of the Council of Defence, to disband the Natal Royal Regiment. The Governor-General has full statutory powers to disband any militia or volunteer corps; no further sanction is required or expected.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether it is intended to alter the present leave regulations for the Civil Service, so as to prevent Civil Servants who are entitled to a month’s leave every year from accumulating that leave, and so as to allow of long leave only once in ten years; and, if so, whether this alteration will apply to Civil Servants who joined the service before Union?

replied: It is intended in due course to issue new leave regulations for the public service, under the provisions of Act No. 29 of 1912, so as to place the matter of leave on a uniform basis. At present there are four separate sets of regulations in operation, corresponding to the different codes in force in the four colonies prior to Union. I cannot as yet say what form the new regulations will take on the point in question, as the matter has not yet been considered by the Government.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether he will take all possible steps to secure the payment of the wages due to men who have recently had a large sum withheld from them on the Ferguson Champ d’Or Gold Mine, Luipaards Vlei; and (2) whether, if no other course is possible, he will secure an interdict on the property on the men’s behalf ?

replied: (1) From information before me it appears that on the application of a miner to whom the company was indebted for compensation for injuries received in an accident, a writ of execution was issued against the property of the Ferguson Champ d’Or Gold Mine Co., Ltd., as a result of which it appeared that the company has no assets, the plant and property being apparently in the name of a certain New Cornhill Syndicate, Ltd. As a result of the proceedings the company is now in compulsory liquidation, and I trust that a full investigation, which appears to be very necessary, will result. (2) The amount owed by the company to employees as wages constitutes a preferent claim under the Transvaal Companies Act of 1909. It does not appear that the department can take any further steps at present.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that, when workmen are engaged at the Docks, Cape Town, even if for one day only, they are required to pay one shilling for a revenue stamp, which they never see; and (2) whether he will remove this injustice?

replied: (1) The only employees required to enter into a contract of service, liable to stamp duty, are those who join with the view of qualifying for permanent appointments, and if any such employees are discharged within two or three days after signing the contract, it is because they have proved unsuitable for the position to which they have been appointed. Such cases would, however, be exceptional. Casual employees are not required to sign a contract of service, and are not, therefore, called upon to pay stamp duty. The hon. member would appear to be under a misapprehension in regard to the stamp not being seen by the men, as it has to be cancelled by the person making the contract. (2) The affixing of a 1s. revenue stamp to contracts of service is necessary to comply with the provisions of the Stamp Duties and Fees Act, No. 30 of 1911, and in view of what has already been stated, it is not considered that any injustice is suffered by the men concerned.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) When was the Commission on Tuberculosis appointed; (2) has it yet reported, and, if not, when is its report expected to be ready; and (3) are any steps being taken at present to check the spread of the disease, and to see that proper treatment is available for persons whose circumstances do not admit of their making such provision for themselves?

replied: The Commission was appointed on the 26th January, 1912 An interim report dealing with the question of the admission of tuberculous immigrants was published and presented to Parliament in May last. The terms of reference include two different subjects of inquiry, one being into tuberculosis and the other into the causes of the excessive mortality among native mine labourers. The Commission has— with the exception of necessary adjournments—been engaged on a full inquiry on the Rand into the conditions of mine labour and in visiting centres throughout the Union to ascertain the extent of prevalence of tuberculosis and its causes and what preventive measures may be possible. The Government has already urged on the Commission the desirability of completing its report as soon as possible, but while I am unable to say definitely when the report will be available, it is not anticipated that it will now be long, and in the meanwhile such measures as have hitherto been adopted by the Union and Provincial Administrations and by local authorities are being continued.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) What are the full names and addresses of the members of the Sunday Observance Commission; (2) when they were appointed; (3)

whether the Government can and will insist upon their handing in their report without further delay, and if not, (4) whether the Government intends to appoint another Commission to consider the evidence that has been taken and hand in a report in accordance therewith; and, if not, (5) whether the Government will lay that evidence upon the Table of this House in order to afford members an opportunity of judging for themselves?

said. (1) The names and addresses of the members of the Sunday Observance Commission are as follows: Henry John Hofmeyr, Johannesburg; the Hon. Frederick Threlkeld Angus Dalton, Natal; Robert Hunter Lundie, Uitenhage; George Augustus Kolbe, Sterkfontein, O.F.S.; Adolph Wagner, Johannesburg; Wilfred Wybergh, Johannesburg. (2) The Commission was appointed in August, 1911. (3) It is of no use insisting on the Commission handing in a report before they have had full time to consider its terms, but I hope that the report will not now be long delayed. (4) The answer is in the negative. (5) I am not prepared to say at this stage what will be done with regard to the evidence, which is no doubt very voluminous, but probably it will be possible to lay it on the Table or the House.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that steamers like the Panther take large pleasure and fishing parties out to sea from the port of Durban daily; (2) whether the Government is satisfied that in case of accident, adequate provision for life saving is provided on these vessels; and, if not (3) whether he will take the necessary steps for the safety of the passengers?

replied: (1) The Panther is the only steamer of that class that makes short pleasure trips to sea from Durban, and she does not leave port except in favourable weather, or proceed beyond signalling distance when she goes to sea. (2) and (3) The answer to question (2), which is in the affirmative, covers question (3).

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the Government is aware that the absence of a platform at Howick station makes boarding and alighting from trains there a danger to the travelling public, especially to old and infirm people and children; and (2) whether, in view of the increase of passenger traffic at this station, he will take immediate steps to erect a suitable platform there?

replied: The provision of a passenger platform at Howick was authorised early this year and the work is now nearing completion.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether he is aware that officers of the Natal post and telegraph service appointed before 1903 hold letters of appointment as “Clerks in the Natal Civil Service” under the provisions of the Civil Service Act of 1894; (2) if so, how is it that since Union certain departmental circulars have been issued increasing the working hours and materially altering the scales of pay, promotion, designation, and other accruing rights of those civil servants serving in the post and telegraph department in Natal under the Civil Service Acts of 1894 and 1898, thus contravening section 144 of the South Africa Act; and, if so (3) whether he will immediately cancel such circulars and give instructions to his heads of departments that section 144 of the South Africa Act is to be strictly adhered to?

replied: The reply to (1) is in the affirmative. (2) and (3) It cannot be admitted that any action taken in the matters referred to is in contravention of section 144 of the South Africa Act, 1909.

asked the Minister of Mines whether any reports have been received from the Miners’ Phthisis Prevention Committee subsequent to that of the 1st August last, and, if so, whether he will lay them upon the Table of this House?

replied: I have received recommendations from the Miners’ Phthisis Prevention Committee for amendments to the Mining Regulations, the object of which is to tighten up the regulations regarding prevention of dust underground. Any further report which I may receive will be laid on the Table of the House.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) What was the death-rate among natives recruited north of latitude 22 deg. during the months of March and April, respectively, (a) on the mines and (b) in the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association compounds in the Transvaal; (2) whether the mortality figures hitherto supplied by the department have included the deaths occurring in the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association compounds; and, if not, (3) what addition should be made to the mortality figures for such deaths for the years 1910, 1911, and 1912, in order to give the true mortality rate for tropical natives?

said that he was not in a position to reply at present, but was obtaining the information, and hoped to have it in a day or two, when he would give a reply.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether his department has lately stopped the issue of mackintoshes, leggings, and overalls to faultsmen and other employees who have to work in the open in all weathers; if so, (2) whether he will give the reason; and (3) what wages and increments telegraph linesmen are receiving in the Cape Province?

replied: (1) and (2) The reply is in the negative. (3) Established telegraph line men progress on following scales: £120, rising by £10 annually to £180 per annum; £190, rising by £10 annually to £250 per annum. Unestablished workmen receive from 8s. to 14s. per diem. In addition, the men draw local allowances where such are payable.

moved: That in the opinion of this House the Government should consider the advisability of setting aside a piece of ground at Kirstenbosch for the establishment of a National Botanical Garden. The mover said that he hoped to be able to make out a case on economical grounds for the establishment of a Botanic Gardens, not that they should under-rate the educational side of the subject. The love of natural beauty was not inherent to mankind, and it was a side of our natural life which should not be neglected. All our efforts were not directed to the purely material side of the development of South Africa, in that we were now building a road round Cape Point which could not be regarded as a strictly economic proposition, but it would add to the fame of the wonderful scenery of the Peninsula, and it would be an attraction to visitors as well as a relaxation to the hardworking citizen. The idea of a National Botanic Gardens was an old one. In 1856 a Select Committee of the Cape Parliament went into the question, and in the course of its report it said that Cape Town, from its geographical position, enjoyed such advantages for the establishment of a Botanic Garden as should not further be neglected. It would be not only an ornament to the city but it would acquire a world-wide reputation, and its importance could not be over-estimated from a scientific, educational and even economic point of view. That was the idea of the Select Committee in 1856, and the result was that members were able at six o’clock to walk through the beautiful gardens adjoining the House, which is a municipal and not a botanical garden. In 1890, Mr. J. Sykes Gamble, Director of Forestry in India, suggested that the Gardens should be handed over to the Municipality and converted into a small park. That had been done. He further suggested that a Botanic Gardens should be established at one of the stations on the suburban line, and that these gardens might become to South Africa what Kew was to England and the Calcutta Gardens to India. Part of the scheme had been established at the South African College owing to the gift of £1,000 a year by Dr. Bolus for a herbarium, but they were now no nearer the establishment of a proper Botanic Gardens than they were in 1856. There was a Gardens in Natal which was established about fifty years ago. It covered about fifty acres, and the income in 1910 was £2,353, of which £1,236 were derived from the sale, of plants. In spite of the small acreage, it strove to carry out its functions, and a great deal had been done by Mr. Wood. That garden has been handed over to the municipality, and as a botanical garden was finished. (Hear, hear.) He thought every hon. member would agree that the ultimate prosperity of this country depended on its vegetable products, and it was also admitted that scientific investigation and botanic research had much to do with the progress of a new country. After dealing with the great discoveries of Mendel, and the chance discoveries of the tea plant in Assam in 1823, the speaker said that the establishment of methods of botanic research would be as valuable to agriculture in South Africa as Dr. Theiler’s veterinary science laboratory to stockbreeders. Before they could get results there must be Scientific research. The crops that were used were imported, and many problems in connection with them had to be fathomed. Something in that direction was being done, but how could they hope for the results they required from an experimental garden on the roof of the Botanical Laboratory of the South African College? One of the first duties of a Botanic Gardens would be the study of native vegetation. The popular fallacy was that the flora of South Africa was known, but he observed that in Namaqualand and Bushmanland, during the last four years, between 50 and 100 previously unknown species had been discovered. Some of these were fodder grasses, and how far they could be put to practical use had still to be determined by scientific investigation. After touching upon the necessity for the investigation of Rooibloem, he said that while it was important that they should study the growth of exotic grasses, it was more important that they should study native grasses. Was it not possible that they might be able to discover a better fodder grass than was being imported from other parts of the world? Then there was a race of Euphorbia trees in Namaqualand, and as the result of investigation one species was found to contain rubber, and it was being exploited to a small extent. If there was further scientific investigation one of the driest parts of Namaqualand might be turned into a rubber-producing centre. Three years ago an American expedition visited Namaqualand; as a result, one species is actually being worked. Another matter for investigation was the deterioration of the veld, which had gone on for ages. One of the causes was the annual burning of the veld, but he believed there were other causes which might be found as the result of research. Owing to the peculiar climate of South Africa it was necessary that the subject should be well studied. He went on to say that in Namaqualand Professor Pearson had discovered a second specimen of what was commonly known as logwood, which, up to the present, had only been found in the West Indies and Central America. Although the discovery of aniline dyes may have discounted somewhat from the interest in this plant, he found that in 1910 they exported 230,000 lb., and in 1912 they found that the price was still £1 13s. 4d. per lb. of extract, so that although this new discovery might not be of great value today, it might be of great value in the future. The country also abounded in drug plants, and only last week a consignment of these plants was sent to America for examination.

They might have also an industry in perfumes. They exported a considerable amount of Buchu. Perhaps they would be also interested to know some of the figures in the years 1906 and 1909. Roughly speaking, they exported in these years 270,000 lb. of Buchu leaves. That only worked out in the neighbourhood of £8,000. From 1910 to 1912 the quantity exported was about the same, but the value had gone up to £24,000 in 1910, £29,640 in 1911, and £38,264 in 1912. How was this plant exported? It was by gathering the wild leaves and exterminating the plant. Scientific investigation would result in improving the quality of the leaf, the quantity shipped, and a general improvement in the plant itself. They had a great many native plants that yielded vegetable oils, and which also yielded fibre. Many of these plants were closely related to the fibre plants of Europe, which supplied immense quantities of paper and rope. There was an immense industry awaiting them there with proper study and care. Then there were other plants they should know, and that was garden plants. Perhaps they did not know that English and Dutch horticulturists were making fortunes out of native bulbs and plants. There was no reason why they should not cultivate these here, and ship them away. Again, there were a great many varieties which were in danger of extinction. People had been permitted to pull up indiscriminately large numbers of these plants, and it was the duty of the Government to prevent their extinction. Another field for a national botanic gardens was the examination and study of native trees and shrubs. Some of these might prove utilitarian for medicinal and other purposes, but many of them could be cultivated for the purpose of giving shade and as ornamental trees. The Forestry Department spent a great deal of money upon the growth of timber, but that department had not the time nor the machinery to embark largely upon the study of native vegetation. He would like to say one word more. He did not think that the Forestry Department should be allowed to destroy indiscriminately the natural beauties of Table Mountain. Unquestionably a change was being made—

Very much for the better.

Probably it is for the better from a utilitarian point of view, but not from an aesthetic. He did not want to stop afforestation, but he did not want all their native vegetation to be sacrificed to utilitarian purposes. Another natural function which these botanic gardens would deal with was poison plants. His right hon. friend (Mr. Merriman) had some experience of these poison plants, and he need not tell him that botanists did not know the habits of certain of these plants. There were many poison plants in this country and in other countries, which at one time of the year might be found nutritious, and at other times of the year were harmful. For the study of these plants and their eradication a botanic garden was necessary. The information that they derived from other countries was not always applicable to South Africa, and therefore they ought to make this investigation themselves. South Africa was the only country in the British Empire that had not a Botanic Gardens. In Java there was a gardens founded by the Dutch. It was founded with the following object— scientific experiments, experiments with native plants and foreign plants, and botanical survey. It was probably the best botanic gardens outside London. In Ceylon there were six fully equipped botanic gardens, at an outlay of £8,600 per annum. Ceylon owed its rubber industry to the existence of these national botanic gardens. In India there are many botanic gardens. The botanic gardens of Calcutta cost for the year ending March 21, 1912, £6,600. In Brazil there were large botanic gardens at Rio de Janeiro with excellent scientific equipments. In Australia there were five large botanic gardens, and there were other parts of the world which he might mention in this connection, but he thought the evidence he had given of the possibilities of such an institution was of such a nature as to make the carrying out of this project acceptable to the House. Coming to the question of the locality of the proposed gardens, the hon. member stated that Kirstenbosch was part of the Rhodes Estate. It was public property, and was in extent 320 acres, of which area 200 acres were suitable for cultivation.

There was a great variety of native vegetation. There were numberless native plants which were being choked out by a foreign weed. The area of Kirstenbosch contained every class of soil almost, from the richest to the poorest. There were two permanent streams of water, essential, of course, to botanical operations. The rainfall was adequate and the contour of the country satisfactory, in that it gave opportunity to grow plants at different heights, and he was told that with proper drainage, which was very easily undertaken in ground of that character, it was possible to grow most of the plants which grew in the Karoo. All that was necessary at Kirstenbosch in the first instance was to fence the area. There was every convenience for experimental plots and various tests. He hoped also in connection with the garden they would have a national botanical laboratory, and probably it would be best placed within the garden, but that would come later on. It was not an immediate necessity. As far as the public were concerned, none of the rights that they enjoyed to-day need be interfered with except one, and that was that they would not be allowed in the future to pluck anything upon the ground at Kirstenbosch. The place was easy of access and a very favourite resort. It was suffering to-day from neglect and decay of the worst possible kind, and on that ground it ought to be seen to. It had a range of climate, soil, and aspect which enabled it to grow a greater variety of plants than any other single spot that they could think of in South Africa. Pretoria, he was told, could grow a certain number of Western Province plants, but Kirstenbosch could grow a far greater variety of Pretoria plants than Pretoria could grow of Western Province plants; in fact, they had facilities at Kirstenbosch for the purposes of a national botanic garden which could not be beaten. He was prepared to hear that they had already a botanical laboratory at Pretoria. They had at Pretoria a fungus laboratory. This botanical garden and laboratory which they would have at Kirstenbosch would be supplementary to that laboratory and would not in any way interfere with it. He was prepared to hear that botanical work was being done at the experimental farm. That was not strictly correct. The agricultural farm did not deal with botanical work. It got practical results where the botanical garden had done pioneer work.

Let him say at once that he wanted to start this in a very modest way. (Hear, hear.) He did not think that a large expenditure was at all necessary. From £1,000 to £2,000 a year would be the maximum that was needed. They would employ two foremen gardeners and eight labourers simply to weed and stop the decay that was going on. He now came to the question of control. He was, personally, against the idea of placing this in the hands of the Agricultural Department. (A Voice: “Why?”) Because Agricultural Departments were not, as a rule, equipped for carrying on botanical research work, and indeed had not the machinery for the pioneer investigations which a national botanic garden and laboratory should undertake, and if they went to other countries for their experience they found that the famous botanic gardens at Oxford, Cambridge, and Edinburgh were controlled by the Universities. He did not wish to lay down any definite line upon which this should be done, but if he could render any services in this matter he would be glad to do so. He thought perhaps the best course would be to place the right to a limited sum of money at the disposal of an institution like the South African College. He believed they would get the best results in that way, with the least expenditure of money. One could speak for hours upon the vegetation of South Africa, which was among the finest in the world, ranking next to the Amazon Valley and the Malay Straits. Its native vegetation, much of which is of great age, had a natural tendency to die, and it would be a disgrace to this country if it were allowed to disappear. If they went quietly to work, they could have some day in this place the finest botanic gardens in the world, because, although he had quoted the Amazon Valley and the Malay Straits, there was no temperate zone in the world which had the same fine vegetation which they had in this Peninsula. He might mention one or two authorities. The late Sir J. D. Hooker, the former Director of Kew Gardens, said that the South-west African flora was the richest and perhaps the most beautiful of the temperate flora in the world whilst Sir Wm. T. Dyer, F.R.S., Editor of the “Flora Capensis,” writing in 1895, said that something more than an ornamental garden was required in South Africa. What was wanted was a central establishment in the neighbourhood of Cape Town devoted to scientific study and experimental cultivation of the plants to be found in South Africa. There were hundreds of problems connected with the cultivation of industrial plants in South Africa awaiting solution. In 1911 the same authority wrote that a central botanic establishment was urgently required; it was not a matter of mere scientific interest, but it was intimately concerned with the future prosperity of South Africa, which possessed perhaps the most wonderful flora in the world. Many South African plants were invaluable as medicines, and these alone would go far to justify extended botanical study. With information like this before them, concluded Sir Lionel, it was not necessary for any mere words of his to commend to the House a motion which he hoped would be accepted by the Minister of Agriculture. (Loud cheers.)

seconded the motion.

said the House was very much indebted to the hon. member for Yeoville for bringing forward this very important subject. (Cheers.) The public were indebted to him, and to those near and dear to him for the very devoted manner in which they were speaking up for scientific subjects. (Cheers.) South Africa had many distinguished botanists, including men like Rawson, once Colonial Secretary, and in the present day, Marloth, Pearson, and Ayres, with Tamarsh in the East and Wood in Natal. Fifty years ago when he (Sir Bisset) came to this land as a humble immigrant, if not an adventurer —(laughter)—he visited the Botanic Gardens in Cape Town, and the curator told him that the Gardens had failed to achieve the object for which they were established, and had become a mere pleasure resort for the good people of Cape Town. Although a National Botanic Gardens was of the first importance to any country, we must not set about this matter in too much of a commercial spirit. (Hear, hear.) It was perfectly true that the proper conduct of a Botanic Gardens might lead to commercial profits, but it would be making a great mistake to establish it, having in view only the commercial side of the question. We had a flora unparalleled and unrivalled in any other part of the world. (Hear, hear.) But unfortunately ladies and gentlemen, who boasted about being South African, had done very little to enlarge their knowledge of the beautiful flora we had in this country. He remembered going to a beautiful garden at Claremont, the owner of which had brought specimens of plants from all parts of the world, but had neglected our own flora, until his attention had been directed to the omission by an oversea visitor. If we had not done very much in our own gardens in this direction, we had certainly done less as a people, and it was incumbent on everyone hoping to see a great nation established here not to forget the things that were here before any white man set foot in South Africa. There was no doubt that many South African plants had perished through sheer neglect and bad usage, and it was time that this vandalism was stopped—(cheers)— otherwise the results would be of the most disastrous character. It was necessary, if we were going to carry forward a scientific study of botany, that we should have such a place as that proposed in the motion. He appealed to the House to support the motion, and he appealed to the Government to make some small grant, not only of land, but of money. (Hear, hear.)

said he had listened with great interest to the remarks of previous speakers. The mover had shown pretty clearly the need for a national botanical garden. Eighteen months ago an influential deputation of members of the Town Council had waited on the Government, and had placed this same matter before the Government, strongly urging that Kirstenbosch should be purchased for the purpose of a botanical garden. Well, he did not think anyone would have any objection to the adoption of the motion as it stood, and he personally must say that he heartily sympathised with the object of the motion. At the same time, while saying that he had no objection to accept the motion as it stood, he wished to make it clear that he was not prepared to bind either himself or the Government in any way whatsoever. If they wished to make this a national undertaking, he held that it was essential to have much more information before them. They must, in the first place, look at the climatic conditions prevailing in South Africa, and they would have to agree that it very greatly depended upon the views of the experts whether it was possible and advisable to have one botanical centre for the whole of South Africa. The Prime Minister went on to point out that it seemed that the hon. member for Yeoville (Sir L. Phillips) had considerably changed his views in regard to the question of the control of such gardens. In the past, when he had urged that institutions of that kind should stand under the control of agricultural colleges, the hon. member had objected; but now he spoke strongly in favour of them standing under the University. (Laughter.) At any rate, as the right hon. gentleman said, thorough and detailed investigation was essential. As regarded the question of the ground being acquired, he did not think that any difficulties would be experienced in that regard. If the House passed a resolution that the ground must be got, the Government would have to find it. It might possibly be better to divide the botanical gardens over the whole of South Africa.

He went on to deal with certain specific experiments referred to by Sir Lionel Phillips. There was the question of the “rooibloem,” which was doing great damage. He held that these investigations should not only be carried on at Cape Town but more especially where the “rooibloem” was found and where it did damage—on the Springbok Flats, for instance. Where the “rooibloem” was found, it was impossible to grow mealies, and he was gratified to see the experiments which were being made by Professor Pearson. It did not appear to grow on the high veld, but as soon as they came down to the Drakensberg, they had trouble to keep it out of the mealies. The inquiry into a plague of that sort should take place locally, and the colleges could give a great deal of help. Then there was the question of crossing grasses and plants in order to obtain better mealies and grain. The Government already had a station at Pretoria, where investigations were being made and where they had as good a man at the head of affairs as was possible in the person of Mr. Burtt Davy.

He is not coming back.

went on to say that his department had no information to that effect. It was true Mr. Burtt Davy was on leave.

The whole department has been broken up.

said that Mr. Burtt Davy had done very good work, and they had now started at the station to make experiments to get late and early mealies. Investigations were also being carried on in regard to the growing of suitable grasses which remained green in winter, and the experiments covered both native and imported kinds of grass. The hon. member for Pretoria East had done much towards getting better grasses, and many farmers were deriving advantages from the experiments. They must, therefore, not break up those experimental stations. The botanical garden would have to be a national one, or else it would be a failure. In the circumstances the Minister concluded, he was prepared to accept the motion, and he would assure the House that the Government would give the matter their serious consideration.

expressed his disappointment at the lukewarm, non-committal way in which the Prime Minister handled the question, and expressed the hope that he would take a broader view, leading to some definite action in the near future.

said the House should be grateful to the public spirit shown by the hon. member for Yeoville in bringing this matter forward. He agreed with the hon. member that it would not be wise to put these gardens under the control of the Agricultural Department. The hon. member for Yeoville was not asking for a tremendous amount of money. He referred to the £8,000 spent annually upon the gardens of Ceylon, but he (Mr. Fawcus) thought they would have to expend that amount annually upon the gardens they established here. Perhaps hon. members did not know that they had a botanic garden in Durban, and very good it was. They had another at Pietermaritzburg, but he found that there had never been any of the results flowing from these gardens which the hon. member for Yeoville expected. Private enterprise had introduced into this country lucerne and paspalum grass. Perhaps hon. members did not know also that Ceylon got the seed for the cultivation of the indigo plant from Natal. The Government in its cultivation of plants had been most successful. Grasses had not been spoilt by grass fires. They had been spoiled by overstocking and overgrazing. He was very glad to hear that the hon. member for Yeoville did not propose to put these gardens under the huge and unwieldy Agricultural Department. Such matters as these could be well left to private enterprise to a considerable extent. Look at what the hon. member for Pretoria, East, had done in this matter. He had really done more in the spreading of the knowledge of different grasses than all the Government Departments put together. (Hear, hear.) He thought that such proposals as this would do a great deal to take away the incentive to such admirable private endeavours as those of the hon. member for Pretoria, East.

said he did not think that Kirstenbosch was the most suitable spot for the purpose of a national botanical garden. He thought they would require a more inland locality to cultivate the native plants. He also thought that the hon. member for Yeoville (Sir L. Phillips) would find the cost a great deal more than he anticipated. The famous gardens of Ceylon, which had been referred to, were placed some 20 miles inland, because the sites on the coast were not considered suitable; whilst labourers were paid only 6d. per day and the foremen 7d. a day, and they found their own food. He did not think there need be any fear of their native plants being destroyed, seeing that the people were now alive to the necessity of preserving their own flora. The question was one in which he felt a deep interest, and he thought a good deal could be done to improve their native plants, but were the surroundings of Cape Town a suitable place? The laying out of a botanical garden was no doubt a desirable thing, but it should be in a place nearer the tropics and further from the sea, if they were to have the best results. Labour would cost more here than in Ceylon. At one time they were trying to exterminate the buchu plant, but now it was being protected. For the sake of good feeling they ought to hear no more about “foreign adventurers.”

said he did not wish to go into the merits of this interesting question, but he wanted to answer something which fell from the last speaker as to whether the locality was suitable. If he were conversant with the climate of the Peninsula, he would know that one of the most remarkable features about it was that you could grow —and grow to perfection—in the Peninsula plants and trees from every quarter of the globe. (Hear, hear.) It was certainly one of the most striking things to anybody who took an interest in gardens, whether landscape or flower gardens, to go to Claremont to a very well-known garden, and see plants and trees from tropical, subtropical, and more temperate parts standing cheek by jowl, and all doing uncommonly well. It was an extraordinary thing that the Karoo plants should thrive so well in the Peninsula. You could grow in the Peninsula every plant that could be grown in South Africa, and every plant with the greatest success, except, of course, trees that required the very coldest climates. Experts were agreed that they could not have a better place than Kirstenbosch, no matter where they looked for it in the whole of South Africa.

said he wished to support the motion, He must confess that he was disappointed with the somewhat callous reply of the Prime Minister. There was no doubt that the unique and extensive flora of the Cape were getting less and less year by year, and that the time had long since arrived when this matter should be seriously tackled. South Africa had a most valuable and unique flora, but it was fast disappearing. The Cape Peninsula flora was vanishing, and one could not see the profuse varieties here that one did some years ago. (Hear, hear.) It was painful to think that we were spending money in preserving our fauna, but that we did nothing to protect our flora. We had a large number of plants of economic value, of whose life history we knew absolutely nothing. For instance, we had plants which some farmers used for medicinal purposes; but this knowledge, and the plants themselves, were being lost, without any efforts being made to preserve them. Again, no one knew the proper way to cultivate the buchu, of which the Americans had endeavoured to obtain seeds. Then natives were allowed to go out and cut the shrub from which bush tea was obtained, and in a few years it would vanish. He could go on for hours mentioning plants which, to his knowledge, were rapidly disappearing; one was the fodder plant. In conclusion, Mr. Watermeyer expressed the hope that a commencement should be made at Kirstenbosch, and he deprecated delay, lest in wasting time discussing how we were to set about the scheme, the object itself had been lost. (Cheers.)

tendered his thanks to the hon. member for Yeoville for the interesting way in which he had brought forward the motion. He regretted that the Minister of Agriculture and Finance had not been present to hear the exceedingly sympathetic remarks that had fallen from the hon. member for Clanwilliam, because those remarks would have more effect on the Government than if they had been uttered by a member of the Opposition. All sections of the House should be united in trying to do something practical in this matter. He was greatly interested in what the hon. member for Yeoville had said in, regard to the cultivation of Karoo plants. In various sections of the country plants which were valuable for stock purposes were disappearing. Investigators would be able to point out what was necessary to restore to the land the grazing virtues they formerly possessed. He hoped that they would be able to obtain more from the Government than had been elicited from the Prime Minister. (Hear, hear.) He (Sir Thomas) did not wish to advocate extravagance in any way, but if the Government would allow him, he would, on the Agricultural Estimates, make suggestions by which far larger sums of money than the project would cost could be saved without any loss to the country, so that a reasonable amount could be applied to a practical object of great benefit. (Cheers.) If hon. members would notice the amount of money we spent in importing animals, they would realise that in that direction alone they could save a couple of thousand a, year, which would be repaid ten thousand times over if applied in the direction suggested in the motion. Sir Thomas mentioned that at Stellenbosch he had found growing a yellow wood tree of a fairly large size. A great deal of timber used in the construction of old Dutch houses must have come from the Slopes of the mountains within a very reasonable distance of Cape Town. (Cheers.) There would be nothing more profitable than to show to the people the manner in which, by careful cultivation, a lot of these indigenous trees could be restored.

Surely the time had come when the Government must do something to prevent the ruthless destruction of our flora by fires which one saw daily on the mountains all over the country. There was nothing more depressing than to see for weeks and weeks, and sometimes for months, the, slopes of the mountains being burnt up, and there appeared to be no legislation by which this criminal practice could be put a stop to. The Minister of Justice must know that within the last few months a most valuable growth was being destroyed by fire in the district in which his farm was located. People were burning out the whole of the natural herbage at the upper reaches of streams, and at the same time they were also destroying the sources of our water supply. (Hear, hear.) Where he differed from the Prime Minister was in the idea that the latter seemed to have that the investigations should be carried out in a haphazard manner all through the country. The Prime Minister seemed to expect that botanists scattered all over the country could do just as good work as if they were located in a proper Botanic Gardens. But if they were to dissipate their energies by placing men all over the country no practical work would be carried out. Scientific investigations should be undertaken in the most careful manner, and the results should then be applied in the field. He appealed to his right hon. friend to reconsider the position, and not alone to accept the motion, but also, before the session closed, to reconsider the advisability of asking the House to vote a reasonable sum for the upkeep of a National Botanic Gardens.

It is not in the motion.

He knows we cannot put that in the motion, as only members on the Treasury benches can move to increase expenditure. Continuing. Sir Thomas pointed out that Kew Gardens had been of advantage to people throughout the world. In the same way the information which could be circulated from Kirstenbosch would be of incalculable benefit.

said the hon. member who moved the motion deserved thanks for raising the subject, for his point of view of the subject would always be a valuable one and of interest to the House as a matter of reference. It had been said by the hon. member for Victoria West that they had practically lost the natural instincts of their ancestors with regard to the love of floral beauty. In that respect had they preserved those characteristics they might have been in a better position than they were at present. But they must not forget that in a new country they had to fight nature, and in the course of that fight people lost their natural instincts for beauty. Now, however, that the country was getting permanently settled, the people were waking up to the fact that in seeing the work which would be covered by the establishment of a national garden carried out, they would be falling back to the love which their ancestors had for nature, and to the love for poetry and art. His constituency had a special claim to be heard in that House. They had formed a small committee in his constituency, and they gave the public an opportunity of seeing what the district possessed in the way of natural flora. It was essentially an agricultural constituency, and great developments took place there; there was great extermination of flora in the ordinary course of development. That was also the case in regard to animals; nobody knew where they were going to, but they disappeared just in the same way as their beautiful flowers. Some varieties were now absolutely extinct. As had been pointed out by the hon. member for Victoria West, he thought the Western Province was the best locality for a site so as to give a true idea of what the country could produce. It was there that their biggest port was situated, and the garden would be easy of approach. He thought the Prime Minister was to blame for not showing more sympathy towards the motion. He had promised the matter should have consideration, but he ought to have given promise of practical help. The Government had moved in the matter of forest fires, and there were powers for dealing in the most stringent manner with people who contravened the law in that direction. He was glad the matter had been brought forward, and the motion had his hearty support.

also spoke in support of the motion. Even if they did represent other parts of the country, he said they might forget that for the time being. It was not a provincial matter; it did not concern the Provinces, so far as he could see, but it concerned the Union as a whole. He had advocated the establishment of a National School of Agriculture in Pretoria, but he did not think that had anything to do with experimental stations or schools of agriculture at all. With regard to the choice of a locality, he thought the project could be determined by the presence or absence of frost. If they were going to start a national botanical garden it was of no use starting it where frost would destroy the value of the work. They must have a frost-free site, and it should be developed for the interests of the whole of the country. Proceeding, he said he gathered from what the Prime Minister had said that nothing would be done in a hurry, and that consideration would be given to the matter. He did not want to give an opinion which only experts could give as to the unsuitability of that particular site, but he thought they should make a start at once, for if they established a place, no matter how small, with serious intentions of dealing with the flora of South Africa they would at once enlist a thousand volunteers to help, for that was just the place they were looking for. What those who were willing to try wanted most was advice, correspondence, and cooperation. If a move towards the establishment of such a place was made they would find a hundred who would send specimens—people who wanted encouragement and perhaps a hint and a little bit of advice. In their turn they would get education which would help them to supplement the work that was being done in the botanical gardens. In reference to the agricultural colleges, he thought first of all that it had nothing to do with that matter. He looked upon it as something which would in a sense discover what they had got, and after it had been identified they could go into the experimental stage and see what could be done in a practical way. He did not believe in the work, even of the second stage, being done by the agricultural colleges. The botanist and experts there gave their time to the teaching of students. Applications for admission to the agricultural colleges were more numerous than the accommodation and equipment could provide. When they made provision for the staff for the agricultural college they provided for it on the basis of the requirements of the previous year, and did not provide for an extra staff on the chance of extra students coming in. The result was that the staff could not possibly find time for any extra work. He made full acknowledgment of the tremendous help which they in the department gave, but the fact of the matter was that nothing of real value was now being done. They could not expect private individuals to do the work that was required.

The little bits of work that were done here and there were hopelessly inadequate. These little patches meant absolutely nothing, and would be lost in a tenth of the area put down by private individuals. There was the process of selection. Who was to do that selection? The rewards for this sort of work were simply incalculable. People said they had better grasses than their neighbours, but they wanted some place where they could send these, so that the benefit could be shared throughout the country, because what was good for most was for the good of the individual. Reference had been made to Karoo plants. Could any hon. member tell him where it was possible to get the seeds of any particular plant? They could not get it. He applied for a pound of buchu seed the other day from the only one source, and he was told it was not available. The plants of the Karoo were unique. It was one of the best parts in the world, and yet they could not restore it except by locking it up and letting nature do the work. Grass fires, as well as game, destroyed all that was good. He put these matters forward in support of the plea of his hon. friend for a National Botanic Garden. He could not say whether it was the best site, but it was a site where a good deal of development work could be done. There were grasses and hundreds of things that grew up-country of which they knew absolutely nothing, and the country had gone back, and they must make a big effort to put it right, and provide not what was, but something better. It must be done. It could be done by the people of the country if they were provided with the initial facilities. Do let them start, even if they started moderately, and establish a place where they could send what they found, and from whence they might gain their inspiration, if one could put it that way. He did not believe in scattering the experiments, and though he represented Pretoria, he believed that this place was eminently suited for this work. He hoped that this scheme would not be crippled by local jealousy or provincial considerations.

pointed out that some time ago, when approached on the point by the National Society, the Government said it would like to do something. The Government was then satisfied that the site was suitable, and the only question was money. Now they had the land for nothing, and experts said they knew of no better site at present. Who was the Prime Minister and his colleagues going to consult? Unless they got the best man in Europe, he did not see that they could get any better evidence than they had at the present moment. He wanted some assurance from the Prime Minister that if the Government were not satisfied with the evidence, they would consult somebody better than the eminent people in this country whose evidence they had, and that Kirstenbosch would be dealt with on its merits. Although Kirstenbosch was in his constituency, he hoped the Government would give some assurance as to what it intended to do.

expressed his appreciation of the way in which the motion had been received by both sides of the House, and though he had only received the sympathy of the Prime Minister, his sympathy was better than opposition. He impressed on the Prime Minister the fact that at present Kirstenbosch was simply decaying. He would also like to point out the difference between the work that would be done by a scientific botanic institution and the work that was being done in agricultural colleges and on farms. Let him take as an example the disease of a plant. To determine that disease, they would have to go to the scientific laboratories. Once the disease was found, they began to find means for treating it. When, for example, a new variety was established in a scientific garden, a small quantity was propagated, and after that they could hand the matter over to agricultural colleges and farms to produce on a larger scale. In the scientific gardens they produced something better than they had before, but they would not grow on a large scale there. If the Prime Minister wanted better evidence as to the suitability of the site, then he suggested that he should go to the Director of Kew Gardens, who would not be swayed by jealousy or other consideration. They could not get a more capable authority, and therefore if advice was needed they should go to a specialist away from this country, although personally he thought it would not be necessary to go outside the country. In reply to his right hon. friend (Mr. Merriman), he would have dealt with the aesthetic side entirely if he had consulted his own tastes, but he tried to deal with the matter both aesthetically and economically. They had only to start such an institution to have volunteers coming from all parts of South Africa with information about plants, and he was sure that if the Government felt that voluntary effort was necessary, they had only to appeal for it to get it. If he could render any service himself he would be glad to do so, and he hoped that an announcement would be made that the proposal had been accepted in a practical manner.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from A. C. Cook, E. Miller and E. Sparks, President, secretary and treasurer, respectively, of the Women’s Citizen Club, Cape Town, praying for legislation whereby women, on attaining the prescribed qualifications, may be admitted to practice any branch of the legal profession, presented to this House on the 15th April, 1913, be referred to the Government for consideration. The mover said that this matter arose out of a case which was before the Provincial and Appeal Courts during the past year. A lady wished to article herself to an attorney in Vryburg. When her articles were sent to the Cape Law Society they declined to register them. The case was taken to the Provincial Court, who ordered the registration, but the Appeal Court upheld the society. Since the Roman-Dutch law was founded they had seen a great difference in the status of women, and women themselves objected to being treated as a cross between a fool and an angel. (Hear, hear.) The legal profession, being over-zealous in the jealousy of its rights in matters of this kind, it would be necessary to remove these disabilities by legislation.

said he would not have spoken upon this matter except that the hon. member who moved the motion said that these disabilities were caused by the over-zealous jealousy of the legal profession. He did not see how the legal profession could be held responsible for a law that existed in Holland three or four hundred years ago. (Hear, hear.) This motion was part and parcel of the new movement of the emancipation of women, but he had heard it said that there were too many lawyers already. (Laughter.) The country was so full of them that it would be much better if they stopped them in some way. If these disabilities were removed and women were allowed to practise, the result would be that the unfortunate male practitioner would not have a chance at all. Those who knew what jury trials were, would know what would be the chance of a male practitioner if he had a lady practitioner opposed to him. (Laughter.) Given a lady practitioner—particularly a good-looking one—when she got up and addressed the jury it was almost a foregone conclusion what the result would be. Then there was another aspect of the question. It was a rather interesting one, and which one found going on in France. Not long ago there was an interesting book published by way of a novel—and this might interest the hon. member for Fordsburg— in which they had a lady practitioner and male practitioner both practising in the Court. They married, and the result was not at all in the interests of conjugal happiness. (Laughter.) The hon. member did not say much in making his motion; in fact, he hardly said anything at all in favour of it. The view that he (Sir H. Juta) had always taken was this, that where a man had an occupation he was the nucleus of a family. He married and formed a family, and families were wanted very much in that country. If they found that women were ousting men in their occupations, they would find that families would decrease. The question of population was becoming a serious one, and he certainly would not allow a motion of this kind to go through without saying something about it. They should not be in a hurry to introduce legislation to make, what were generally considered masculine professions, open to women, unless there was a legitimate demand, but in this case he did not think there was a legitimate demand The demand was confined to a few ladies, but the general body of women were against it. The matter did not affect him one iota, and therefore no one could accuse him of being jealous, and therefore he could speak upon it openly. He did not think they should allow a matter of this sort to go to the Ministry, because he did not believe it was supported by the general body of people in the country. (Hear, hear.)

, who seconded the motion, said he was firmly convinced that the hon. member in opposing this question did so from pure conviction, and that he was not actuated by jealousy in any way. He did not agree with the statement, however, that the hon. member who made the proposal did not take a great deal of interest in it because he had not spoken anything upon it. He did not speak at any great length upon this subject, because he had come to the conclusion that the good sense of the House did not want any bucking up upon this subject.

When the hon. member (Sir H. H. Juta) said that the bulk of the women in this country did not want the professions thrown open to them, he (Mr. Madeley) said that the hon. member was wrong, because the bulk of the women, at any rate the intellectual and thinking women, not only in this country, but throughout the civilised world, did want to take their place on the same plane as men, and they had a right to. They wanted to enable women to have the opportunity of becoming married, and married happily, and of raising families in this and any other country. He wondered that those people who held views such as had been expressed by the hon. member for Cape Town, Harbour, had not raised their voice and used their great influence in the direction of making that an accomplished fact.

I am married. (Laughter.)

The hon. member is married, but he is not using his undoubtedly great influence in the direction of enabling other women to be married. I don’t mean marrying them himself, of course—(laughter)—but enabling them to choose mates. Take Cape Town alone, take your shops, take various walks of life in Cape Town, and you will see women engaged in competition with men, the direct result of which is that men are pulled down, pulled down in the social scale and in their scale of living, not because of the women themselves, but because the women are being forced into economic competition with them on a lower scale, and they get a lower wage. Proceeding, Mr. Madeley said that he did not think there was any probability in a close preserve like the Lawyers’ Association of women being enabled to compete with men on a lower scale. That being so, the competition was perfectly fair. A client did not go to one lawyer in preference to another because he could get him cheaper. He thought it was only fair that those who represented the lawyers in that House should agree with the hon. member who moved this motion, and himself, that women should have the opportunity of fair, free, and open competition with men in the legal profession, as they had in other professions. They were not barred from the medical profession and other walks of life. He had presented a petition, which was numerously signed, from his constituents, and all over the country women were supporting not only these two petitions which were being presented, but also the movement which had for its object the absolute emancipation of women.

said he was surprised at the attitude of the hon. member for Cape Town, Harbour, because he knew he was not actuated by any spirit of professional exclusiveness, but by a kind of revolt against a state of things which he evidently felt had come to stay in the world, but which he did not like. As for his hon. friend’s argument that very few women wanted this privilege, if that were so, surely there could be no harm in letting those who did want it, have it? He thought that those who took up the attitude of the hon. member that this would lead to great evil as regarded the home, and so on, if they were logical, must go back to a much earlier stage of civilisation than they had got to now, a stage which refused to allow women any share in intellectual occupations or pursuits at all. For good or evil, the world had outgrown that stage now. All the arguments which had been used against throwing open the legal profession to women were used against throwing open the medical profession, but who was there now that would like to go back to the days when women were barred from practising medicine? He hoped the House would accept the motion.

said he hoped hon. members would not be so inconsistent, having already passed unanimously the reference of similar petitions to the Government, as to throw out this one just because he had let them know what its inward meaning was. When he suggested that the profession was jealous of women becoming legal practitioners, he was referring to the action of the joint law societies of South Africa in taking this matter to appeal and opposing it, and pressing for costs against an unfortunate girl.

The motion was declared to be negatived.

called for a division.

While the division bells were ringing,

expressed his wish to withdraw his demand for a division.

objected to the request for a division being withdrawn.

A division was then taken with the following result:

Ayes—34.

Andrews, William Henry

Berry, William Bisset

Bezuidenhout, Willem Wouter Jacobus J.

Botha, Louis

Boydell, Thomas

Brown, Daniel Maclaren

Creswell, Frederic Hugh Page

Currey, Henry Latham

Duncan, Patrick

Fawcus, Alfred

Fitzpatrick, James Percy

Heatlie, Charles Beeton

Hewat, John

Hunter, David

Madeley, Walter Bayley

Malan, Francois Stephanus

Meyler, Hugh Mowbray

Oliver, Henry Alfred

Oosthuisen, Ockert Almero

Robinson, Charles Phineas

Sampson, Henry William

Sauer, Jacobus Wilhelmus

Schreiner, Theophilus Lyndall

Smartt, Thomas William

Smuts, Jan Christiaan

Theron, Hendrick Schalk

Vosloo, Johannes Arnoldus

Walton, Edgar Harris

Watkins, Arnold Hirst

Wiltshire, Henry

Wyndham, Hugh Archibald

C. Joel Krige and H. Mentz, tellers. Noes—41.

Bosman, Hendrik Johannes

Brain, Thomas Phillip

Burton, Henry

Cronje, Frederik Reinhardt

De Waal, Hendrik

Du Toit, Gert Johan Wilhelm

Fischer, Abraham

Geldenhuys, Lourens

Griffin, William Henry

Grobler, Evert Nicolaas

Grobler, Pieter Gert Wessel

Jagger, John William

Joubert, Christiaan Johannes Jacobus

Joubert, Jozua Adriaan

Keyter, Jan Gerhard

King, John Gavin

Kuhn, Pieter Gysbert

Leuchars, George

Maasdorp, Gysbert Henry

Macaulay, Donald

Marais, Johannes Henoch

Marais, Pieter Gerhardus

Merriman, John Xavier

Myburgh, Marthinus Wilhelmus

Neethling, Andrew Murray

Quinn, John William

Schoeman, Johannes Hendrik

Smuts, Tobias

Steyl, Johannes Petrus Gerhardus

Theron, Petrus Jacobus George

Van der Merwe, Johannes Adolph P.

Van der Walt, Jacobus

Van Eeden, Jacobus Willem

Van Heerden, Hercules Christian

Venter, Jan Abraham

Vermaas, Hendrik Cornelius Wilhelmus

Watermeyer, Egidius Benedictus

Watt, Thomas

Wessels, Daniel Hendrick Willem

L. A. S. Lemmer and J. J. Alberts, tellers.

The motion was therefore negatived.

moved: That the petition from H. A. Lamprecht, chairman of the Consistory of the “Nederduits Hervormde of Gereformeerde” Church, Johannesburg East, praying for the removal of the servitude of school purposes from stands Nos. 348 and 349, Johannesburg, or for other relief, presented to this House on the 18th April, 1913, be referred to the Government for consideration. Mr. Geldenhuys, in the course of his remarks, said the object of the motion was to have a servitude removed from a few stands. The Kerkeraad had approached the Government on the matter. He hoped the Government would consider the matter and not consider it too long, and so compel him to raise the matter again. The Government under a law of 1908 had the right to annul the servitude, and if they did not do so he would next year have to move for the appointment of a Select Committee. He would be glad to hear the opinion of the Minister of Lands.

The motion was agreed to.

moved: That the petition from A. Ainslie and 138 others, residents on both sides of the Vaal River, praying for the construction of a bridge across the Vaal River at Christiana, or for other relief, presented to this House on the 12th June, 1912, be laid upon the Table, and, if agreed to, that it be referred to the Government for consideration.

said that he had wished to speak on the previous motion.

said he regretted that he did not see the hon. member rise.

spoke strongly in support of the motion. If the bridge were built it would greatly help his constituents in getting nearer to the railways. The bridge was necessary for the Free State, and especially necessary for Boshof. The railway now ran on the Transvaal bank of the river, and produce from the west of the Transvaal had to be taken over the river in boats, or, failing that, to be carried long distances.

The motion was agreed to.

moved: That the correspondence between the Government and the Administrator of the Province of the Orange Free State regarding the bursary fund established by Act No. 34 of 1909 of the Orange River Colony, be laid on the Table of this House.

The motion was agreed to.

moved: That all papers dealing with the contemplated removal of District Veterinary Surgeon Webb from the Mooi River district, Natal, be laid upon the Table of this House. He said he would like to draw the attention of the Prime Minister to certain ominous rumours that had been going about in connection with this matter. He thought the papers should be laid on the Table so that the House might be acquainted with the whole of the particulars and discuss the matter when the Agricultural Estimates were before the House. Continuing, he said that this officer had occasion to deal with a certain gentleman —a member of Parliament, but not of this House—in connection with the East Coast fever regulations, and had simply been doing his duty. This gentleman was extremely indignant and went about saying that he would see this official removed in a month. He did not think the Minister would deny that this gentleman came to the Agricultural Department and expressed his dissatisfaction at the way in which this official was working. Now they found there was a suggestion to remove that veterinary surgeon from the district and the whole neighbourhood was up in arms about it. He (Mr. Meyler) had been bombarded with correspondence on the subject, and he suggested the best way to put the matter right would be to stop the transfer, and then everybody would understand it was not for reasons which were as they should not be. It was a great pity that that particular veterinary surgeon should be transferred, as he had got to know the district and had given every satisfaction.

said he had no objection to laying the papers on the Table, but he would assure hon. members that the transfer of Webb was not on account of any complaints either from a member of the Senate or of anyone else in Natal. He (General Botha) had given general instructions that all veterinary surgeons in Natal should be transferred in the same manner as was done with Magistrates, because he thought that it was not advisable that any official of that kind should remain too long at one place. That was the reason for the transfer. Mr. Webb did his work well, and was a capable man.

The motion was agreed to.