presented a petition signed by 10,600 inhabitants of the Witwatersrand, with reference to the agreement between the Native Labour Association and the Mozambique authorities by which the payment of part of the wages of native labourers recruited in Portuguese territory for the Rand mines is deferred until their return to their homes. The petitioners prayed that legislation should be introduced putting an end to this system.

from A. H. Hann, station master of the Bedford Railway Station, who entered the Cape Government Railway Department in 1880,. praying, for the condonation of certain breaks in his service, or for other relief.

from A. J. Dennis and 112 others, adult coloured men and women resident in the town and district of Durbanville, praying for the total prohibition of the sale and supply of intoxicating liquor, except medicinally or sacramentally, to any coloured person within the Union; and similar petitions from F. Loppenberg and 115 others, adult coloured men and women resident in the town and district of Calitzdorp; from J. J. Arendse and 96 others, adult coloured men and women resident in the town and district of Calvinia; from A. Erasmus and 113 others, adult coloured men and women resident in the town and district of Great Brak River; from A. Barends and 83 others, adult coloured men and women resident in the town and district of Beaufort West; from K. Presentz and 128 others, adult coloured men and women resident in the town and district of Bredasdorp; and from P. F. Kannemeyer and 317 others, adult coloured men and women resident in the town and district of Riversdale.

resumed the adjourned debate on the following motion, which he introduced on Thursday, February 20, viz.: “That in the opinion of this House the Government should take into consideration the advisability of obtaining, by means of surveys and reports, further information as to the relative advantages of providing increased facilities for the carriage of coal from the Natal coalfields to Durban, by building an auxiliary coal line, instead of improving or doubling the existing main line.” Mr. Fawcus said the motion was fraught with serious consequences to the future welfare of an industry which was of the greatest importance to South Africa, and which, next to agriculture, might be said to be the greatest asset South Africa possessed. Coal mining would survive gold mining for hundreds of years. Although the coal mining industry in Natal was in its infancy, the traffic on the railway was two and a half million tons per annum, and in a very few years they might look forward to having five million tons of coal a year to deal with. That great coal traffic, which had assumed such proportions at present, had been dealt with by the Administration in a way which was almost marvellous. It was the heaviest traffic on any single line in the world, and there was a serious risk to life and property. The present occupant of the “siege perilous” at the Cabinet Round Table as the representative of Natal had brought forward the same matter the previous year, and the then Minister of Railways and Harbours had accepted his (Sir Thomas Watt’s) motion, and it had been carried. He (Mr. Sauer) had said that he would make a full inquiry into the subject, and when the House met again, he would say what he thought would be the best thing to do under the circumstances. He (Mr. Fawcus) thought that the circumstances at present very, very much more urgent than they had been. The House had met, but they had had no statement from the Minister as to what course he intended to pursue, unless the memorandum which had been placed in his hands could be dignified by the name of a report. Five weeks ago he had asked the Minister what had been done to give effect to the resolution, and the reply which had been given could only mean that the Government intended to go in for improving the present main line. The most considerable piece of work was the main-line deviation between Estcourt and Highlands, and if the work were allowed to rest there, no great damage would be done; but the fact remained that on that section there was a tunnel half a mile in length, and that, to him, proved that the line was in the wrong place, and that another place should be investigated to get a line with easier gradients, without any such heroic measures as tunnels half a mile long. In such a discussion as that few or no figures were available, because though Government had been at great pains to gather all possible information as to existing main line improvements, the other route had been carefully avoided and kept in the background. Now what was the reason for that? There must be some reason. The reason was not far to seek if they read the debates on this matter ten years ago in the Natal Assembly. Sir A. Hime and Colonel Greene were the principal opponents of the new line, and with the limited vision characteristic of the Pietermaritzburg representatives in those days, and which was characteristic of them to-day, they would find the gist of Colonel Greene’s objections were that the new line interfered with vested interests On the main line. Colonel Greene was now a prominent member of the Rail way Board; where they might be sure all his influence had been used in favour of main line improvements and to prevent any honest inquiry into the merits of rival schemes. (Labour cheers.) Surely a report from the Railway Board on that important matter might well come within its functions, and guide the House as to the globular sums they were asked to vote on those main line improvements. One of the chief arguments of the Government against the construction of another line was that a double staff would be necessary, but the administration stated they intended to use the superseded parts of the line for local traffic, so on both schemes a double staff was necessary. The policy followed in Natal virtually meant the scrapping of millions’ worth of the country’s assets because of the portions of the line which were superseded and not used. All the opening up the North-west of the Cape Province by railways was only to cost £1,300,000, and in Natal the policy being pursued was the destroying of £1,500,000 worth of railway. No inspection had been made in Natal as to an alternative route, although it had been promised the previous session, and it had not been made if Col. Greene and the Railway Board could do anything to prevent it. The Board was in a position of trust, and had to look after some of the most valuable assets in that country. The course he would suggest was that an engineering inspection should be made, which would not cost more than £300 or £400, and that if that was favourable the Government should have a flying survey made, and if it proved that there was no advantage in the scheme, it should be dropped.

There was nothing he would not do to prevent the wholesale destruction of railways going on in Natal at present under the name of main line improvements without sufficient inquiry. The longest deviation went right through the constituency which he represented—(laughter)—but that did not prevent him raising his voice against these so-called improvements. The hon. members for Pietermaritzburg would probably get up in their places and advocate that as much as possible of the country’s money should be expended in the neighbourhood of Pietermaritzburg. This had always been the attitude of Pietermaritzburg, but, thank goodness, Pietermaritzburg had not the same weight and influence in that House that it had in the Natal Assembly. What were the facts? There were proposals before the Natal Parliament for the construction of an alternative main line, not with the object of carrying coal, but in order that there might be short and speedy communication with Johannesburg. The line suggested turned out to be 40 miles shorter than the corresponding main line, which had always been a good line. That line was considered to be a great achievement, so great an achievement that nothing better could be desired. But since, surveys had been made on the Natal main line, at a considerable expenditure of time and money, and a gradient of one in sixty-five obtained. The hon. member added that if the Government could get one in sixty-five in such unsuitable country, surely in the much easier country through which the auxiliary coal line would pass they might even get one in eighty or one in a hundred. Even at the time the alternative main line was being discussed the opinion of some people was that it was a thing that was not required. It was considered that if they had a line that could take the heavy coal traffic off the main line that would meet all the requirements. The main line at present was well equipped and suitable for passenger traffic, and from that point of view it should be allowed to stand, but the heavy coal traffic could not be run in conjunction with the passenger traffic. Incidentally he pointed out that the delays to the coal traffic at present meant something like £50,000 a year. More than that, bringing the coal traffic over the main line at an excessive speed was dangerous to life and destructive to the metals. Natal ten years ago was actually on the point of constructing this line, which it had been estimated would cost five millions. The proposal that the alternative line should be built was only thrown out by one vote when it was before the Natal Parliament. Where was Natal in the matter at the present time? Her vital interests were in the hands of the Union House. The House might be willing to help, but the House had not that personal knowledge of the matter that was so necessary. All that Natal asked at present was that a proper engineering investigation should be made. What they wanted was a railway on which coal could be carried at one-sixth of a penny per ton per mile instead of the rate that was being charged at the present time. Even at that price coal could be carried at a profit, but the harbour appliances at present available were discounted by the heavy traffic on a railway that was not suited to the purpose. Why could not they build a special coal railway, as had been done in all other countries? They were told that the railways were being run on business lines, and if that were the case then he thought that an investigation should be made into this matter on business lines. The question was whether it was possible to build a new coal line and pay interest on cost and working expenses from the revenue derived from the carriage of coal. There could be no answer to this economic question until a proper inquiry had been made into the’ various routes suggested. The Government should not take up the attitude of asking them to wait until the main line was completed and then seeing it would carry twice the present traffic.

The crucial point was not how much coal they were going to deal with, but how much would it cost to bring it to the coast. If coal could not be carried at l-6th of a penny per ton per mile, then Natal coal would be kept out of the world’s markets. After the agricultural value of the top 12 inches of soil, the Natal coal fields were the greatest asset possessed by the Union. In the memorandum issued in which the Administrator had included their policy, no consideration was taken of the fact that upon the existing main line there were 2,000 feet more rise and fall than on the auxiliary coal main line. This advantage alone would be worth spending £2,600,000 to obtain on the basis of five million tons of coal traffic per year, In the memorandum before him no mention also was made of the long lengths of line that would be superseded. If the proposal was to spend 1½millions upon these long deviations, then they could not spend that amount without scrap-heaping 1 millions of the Union’s assets. As he said before, there was no very great harm done so far, but he thought it was time to call a halt. Let the Government go in for an engineering inspection of the route through which the auxiliary coal line would have to pass. In one statement the memorandum quite openly stated that the main line would have to be doubled and eventually at a cost of five million pounds. In conclusion the hon. member said that what he would like was that the Government should undertake some proper engineering inspection and, if warranted, then this inspection could be followed by a, flying survey, the object being to find out if the Administration was pursuing the proper course.

regretted that the hon. member for Umlazi had thought it necessary to reflect upon the conduct and methods of a member of the Railway Board. The hon. member had spoken to him of this matter some time ago, and he found that his predecessor in office had promised that an inquiry should be made. He accepted a motion which was something similar to the one now, and said he would consult his colleagues and make the necessary inquiry. There had, however, been some misunderstanding regarding the carrying out of the undertaking then given. It appears that his predecessor promised that an inspection would be made, but it had not been made, owing to some misunderstanding. The hon. member knew that the whole matter was discussed between two members of the Railway Board and the Durban Chamber of Commerce, and the Durbar. Chamber of Commerce was of the same opinion as the Railway Board.

rose, and was proceeding to challenge the Minister’s statement, when

ruled that he was out of order.

said the Chamber of Commerce at Durban, he understood, was satisfied with the view expressed then by the members of the Railway Board.

Let him say whether that were so or not, seeing that there was a promise made, in answer to the motion of the hon. member, by his predecessor to have an inspection made, he intended not to oppose the motion, but to adopt the same attitude as his predecessor did, and so he accepted the motion, subject to its being clearly understood that all he undertook to do was to have an inspection made. There would not be a survey of a detailed character at all, but merely an inspection, which need not cost very much. It was only fair to point out to the hon. member, at the same time, that he did not anticipate that the report which would be made upon that inspection was at all likely to change the view which the Railway Administration held upon the subject. He was promising this inspection because it was promised last year. They were doing it because of a feeling that there should be some recognition made of the views which were held, but the view of the Railway Administration was that further surveys were unnecessary, and that the information, which was in the possession of the Railway Administration was sufficient to enable them to decide the question. They recognised the importance of the coal traffic and the extent to which it had grown, and it would be their endeavour to deal in the most effective way with that traffic, and manage it successfully; but when the hon. member proposed, as he really did, to advocate the building of an additional line from the port inland, more or less parallel, or at all events a second line from the port inland, with the already existing line in a country which was undeveloped as South Africa was, and in which there was so much legitimate demand from various parts for the building of railways to develop the country, he said that, to ask the Administration now to seriously entertain this project, was asking too much. He would give a few’ figures which had been carefully prepared by the Railway Hoard. If they took the question of the capacity of the line under these different proposals, and compared the carrying capacity of the line under the proposal to improve the existing line with the proposal brought forward by the hon. member, he found that, on the existing line, under favourable conditions, they could carry a total tonnage gross of 31,000 tons per day. On the improved single line and the alternative line, taking the two together, on a 1 in 65 downgrade, they could carry 104,231 tons. On the double improved line they could carry 162,000 tons. This, of course, by no means indicated the limit which could be reached by running trains at what was called the ten minutes’ interval.

The Engineer-in-Chief had gone carefully into the whole matter, and he estimated that, on the completion of the improvements now in hand and contemplated, the improved single line would be able to cope with 100 per cent, more traffic than at present. (Hear, hear.) If Mr. Tippett were right, there was no reason for supposing that the single main line for eight, ten, or a dozen years to come would not be able to cope with the traffic. He was told that the return on the money now being expended was 6.2 per cent, per annum. The improved double line would accelerate goods trains by about six hours. At some future date when the country was in a better condition to be able to stand it, he had no doubt that an additional line was not unlikely to be built. It was reasonable to consider, with that idea in view, whether it would not be better to adopt that scheme in preference to doubling the line now. They had in the first calculation a figure of £284,000 odd in favour of the improved single line over the other proposition. In the second case they had a figure of £190,000 in favour of the double improved line. The difference of £94,000represented approximately the cost of working the improved double line. Another point strongly in favour of the improvement of the existing line was that, whereas in the case of the alternative line they could not get relief for some three and a half years, and it would cost probably something like three millions, on the system of the improvement of the existing line they would get the benefit of each section as it was completed. He was prepared in the circumstances to accept the motion, on the clear understanding that he had indicated.

said he was pleased to hear from the Minister that he intended to have an inspection made of this route. He would ask the Minister to do nothing that would hinder the construction of the works that were proposed to be done to improve the present line. (Hear, hear.) He agreed with every word that had been said as to the desirability of improving the present line.

said he had intended to support the motion of the hon. member for Umlazi, but for quite different reasons. With the cessation of railway competition under Union the necessity of having an alternative main line in Natal had been removed. Now they should build auxiliary lines which would open up the country through which they passed. The line suggested by the hon. member for Umlazi would do very little to open up the country, because it would mainly pass through locations. (An HON. MEMBER: Question.) The Minister should extend his inquiries to the line which had been surveyed through Zululand, which showed a difference in its favour of about three miles as compared with the present main line route. It might be possible while building the railway to develop the country, almost every inch of which was taken up by farmers, and at the same time this railway would furnish an auxiliary coal line which would answer all the purposes that were needed.

said it was 23 years ago since, as responsible head of the Natal Railways, he foresaw the great improvements which would be needed if the system were to cope with the increasing volume of traffic. With a view to building another railway, he was able to obtain the consent of the then Government to a thorough examination being made of the country so as to ascertain the best route for an additional line to the interior. He presented a report to the Natal Government on the subject in 1902-3, and to that report he had very little to add. If, a direct route were to be obtained it had been clearly demonstrated that what was called the alternative main line, which, leaving Durban, proceeded up the Umgeni Valley via the Noodsberg to Waschbank, at the foot of the Biggarsberg, was the only possible route. He wished to remark here that the present Natal main line was not really intended as a through line to the interior; the development of the country had not taken place then. The railway from Durban to Charlestown was one of the most extraordinary in the world in respect to physical conditions, for loads carried over it had to be lifted no less than two and a half miles vertically in a distance of three hundred miles. No matter how much policies might differ, the line to which he had referred had to be made—(hear, hear)—because it was the only route by which a railway with proper gradients for working a large traffic could be obtained.

The difficulty he felt in taking part in the discussion was that the House had no Government railway policy before it. The Durban Chamber of Commerce was still awaiting information upon which to make up its mind in regard to the Government’s policy. It would be very much better if the experts of their Railway Department would devise a proper scheme, because anyone who travelled over the existing Natal line could see that it would be unable to cope with the increased traffic of the future. Had the Government any policy on this matter?

They have not.

We can only guess what their policy is from certain things that have happened.

Then you guess wrong.

said he believed that about £300,000 had been spent this last year—in doing what? A portion of the line costing half a million had been abandoned, and the length of the main line had been increased by 8½ miles in twenty miles. Could that be called the policy of railway statesmanship? If that were the Government’s policy, he would advise the Minister of Railways to absolutely abandon it. The Natal railways ’carried forty per cent, of the entire tonnage of the Union’s eight thousand miles of railway, and it had a much bigger task to perform than any other railway in South Africa. Anyone who travelled over the Natal line would see trains waiting at every station to pass one another. In fact, a large sum of money was represented in the steam which the engines blew off while waiting to pass one another. The only reason the alternative main line was not built ten years ago was the existence of local jealousies which the Union surely could not countenance; but if the line had been constructed at the time the country would have reaped many benefits, and it would not have cost a penny. That was the irony of the whole situation. Having tor so long been associated with the railways of Natal, he could not help feeling disappointment and regret that the “tinkering” policy was still being carried on, but he hoped the Minister would reconsider the position, and take such steps as would elucidate the facts which were all patent, and act upon them. He was an old man now, but he would live to see that alternative line built. (Hear, hear.)

said that it was rather refreshing to see that difference of opinion amongst Natal members on something which concerned Natal. They had had that matter before them the previous session, and he was a strong supporter of it, because the whole of South Africa would develop as well as Natal. (Hear, hear.) Certain information, however, had come to his attention, which caused him to doubt whether that alternative route was, after all, so pressingly required as the hon. member for Durban, Central (Sir David Hunter), had stated. He found that the principal collieries of Natal had formed a combination, which included 12 of the most important collieries in Natal, if not all, with the result that they had put up the prices in Cape Town from 22s. 6d. to 24s., second grade, and 26s., first grade, coal.

That is not combination.

I call it so.

That is an “association.” (Laughter.)

Is that a restriction of trade?

It is what I should call a restriction of trade. That was not all, he went on; not only had they formed a strong combination, and not only could they get Natal coal in Cape Town through but one sea carrier (he was understood to say), but they had refused to serve anyone in Cape Town overland.

What about the mail contract ?

I am stating facts, and leave the House to judge. This combination refuses to send coal overland to Cape Town. They will send it overland to Worcester, or even Paarl, but not down to Cape Town If they want to take advantage of every opportunity to send their coal, how can there be such a pressing necessity, as far as they are concerned, when there is another route to Cape Town and congest the route to Durban? The colliery owners of Natal cannot have it all ways—not send their coal by the present line and then want an alternative line built. I do not want to oppose this motion, naturally, but I do want to point out that these gentlemen must be consistent.

This has been a most painful speech for me to listen to (Laughter.) I have just, in common with a great many others, given a qualified blessing to the contract just ratified by this House. It says here in the Post. Office Act that the Governor-General shall not enter into any such mail contract with any person connected, directly or indirectly, with a shipping combination which the Governor-General may consider detrimental to South African trade or industry. I believe the Government cannot shut their eyes to the fact that raising the prices of coal to the public here and forbidding ships to trade in coal to Natal, and generally putting restrictions on the coal trade to the port of, Cape Town, are detrimentally affecting South African trade or industry. I think we should indeed be simple folk if we thought, that is the case, and how is it possible that the Government, who made the rafters ring with denunciations of combines, are now going, in contradiction to their own Act, to do so? As I in the Post. Office Act that the Governor-General shall not enter into any such mail contract with any person connected, directly or indirectly, with a shipping combination which the Governor-General may consider detrimental to South African trade or industry. I believe the Government cannot shut their eyes to the fact that raising the prices of coal to the public here and forbidding ships to trade in coal to Natal, and generally putting restrictions on the coal trade to the port of, Cape Town, are detrimentally affecting South African trade or industry. I think we should indeed be simple folk if we thought, that is the case, and how is it possible that the Government, who made the rafters ring with denunciations of combines, are now going, in contradiction to their own Act, to do so? As I said, my hon. friend opposite (Mr. Jagger) was led away. (Laughter.) For once he lost that calm, sober policy of the free trade mind—(laughter)— and gave way to that dash of Protection, always so dangerous in that case, and now finds himself up to the neck. (Laughter.)

I opposed it.

No he approved of it. Two days ago he was speaking with that fervour he uses when he speaks of things he believes in. Is this not a terrible awakening? (Laughter.) He has urged the Government to break their own law—the law they passed two years ago. I must congratulate my hon. friend (Mr. Fawcus) on his efforts to have that inspection made, and it has done great good to the country to show what hollow professions are those laws which are in this book, when the Government go and break them in the making of a contract with people who are up to their eyes in a coal combine. Well, I leave it at that. (Laughter.)

said he greatly regretted that the right hon. gentleman; had not given them (the Labour Party) assistance the other evening when they were trying to have an adequate discussion in connection with matters which the right hon. gentleman had just discovered. His hon. friend who sat behind him had pointed it out at the time. The right hon. gentleman had been in the House the other evening, but they did not remember receiving any great assistance from him, or, in fact, from any other hon. members in the House, except his colleagues on the cross benches, to bring pressure to bear on the Government to allow the adjournment, and have the discussion continued at a more convenient time.

You spoilt a good case. (Laughter.)

Did we spoil a good case by trying to get at the truth? Continuing, he said that they (the Labour Party) had tried to get at the truth of things, while other hon. members had gone to dinner. Dealing with the motion before the House, the hon. member said that he would urge upon the Minister to have a survey made. Durban was the natural port for the whole of the eastern part of the Union, and any reasonable railway policy should look to the future. The best railway route was from Durban to the great population centres of the Transvaal. Any Ministry with any regard to the future must look forward to the time when they could develop their own trade by the best possible means of transportation, quite apart from any arrangements with a foreign country. He thought that something more than an inspection should be made. An inspection might be made by half-a-dozen people and yet leave some of the material points in doubt. He thought that a real survey should be made—a real study of the country through which the line would pass. He hoped that more than a mere inspection of the route would be made.

said he was personally interested in the laying of a new line. After the explanation of the Minister, however, showing that the improvements which were being made to the main line will enable it to deal with all traffic offering during the next eight to ten years, he did not see his way to support the motion, the more especially as other parts of the country which had no railways at all badly required them.

said it had been stated that two members of the Railway Board had gone to Durban and convinced the Chamber of Commerce that the present arrangements were the best that could be made. He wished to inform the House that two members of the Railway Board did go to Durban, and had an interview—private—with the committee of the Chamber of Commerce, and that one of them informed people outside that the scheme which they then had in view was the best. The Chamber of Commerce had repudiated the idea, and had passed a resolution asking the Government to make another survey over the alternative route. One objection raised was that the new line would, for some distance, run parallel with the present line. He had heard of other lines which were to be projected in that House to which the same exception could be taken. The distance between the two lines, however, was so great that the traffic of the line would not interfere with the traffic of the other. The members of the Railway Board had said to the committee of the Durban Chamber of Commerce that the improvements at present being made would result in 75 per cent, more traffic being carried than at the present time. To-day the Minister told them that it would be 100 per cent. The Minister had promised that, there would be an inquiry. The Minister who was in office last year promised an inquiry.

I promised you an inspection.

said that it was difficult to know how much that meant. Last year they spent the whole session educating the Minister, and just at the end of the session he promised to look into the matter with his experts. That labour was lost, for this year they had another Minister in office. Now they were trying to educate the new Minister. Next year they might find another Minister in office, and then they would have to start again from the beginning. He was surprised at the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, dragging the coal combine question he had done into this debate, especially after what took place the other night, and especially after the statement had been proved to be wrong. There had been in Natal an association or combination of certain collieries. (Labour cheers.) There were only ten collieries. They had agreed to work together in order to improve the price of the coal, and relieve the troubles caused by the shortage of trucks. They sold all the coal they could Spare to the Union-Castle Company at Durban. What the Union-Castle Company did with that coal had nothing to do with the collieries. It was not a monopoly. Seven or eight Natal Collieries were not in the Association and were not controlled by it, and any quantity of Transvaal coal could be had in Cape Town if wanted. There had been an association of a similar character in the Transvaal for some years. It looked like a provincial attack on Natal. But they had the Government acting in a similar fashion, and he quoted the terms of a circular from the Government that fruit would be carried to Cape Town at £2 10s. per 2,000 lb., but the condition was that the growers must give a written undertaking to send all their fruit by rail. He thought that after that, members of the Government need not talk about other people interfering with trade. In conclusion, he hoped that the inquiry promised would be a real and not a sham investigation.

said that the statement made that this proposed line would only touch the fields occupied by the combine was not correct, for it would traverse a great hitherto undeveloped stretch of coal fields estimated by the Government officials at 500 square miles in extent. This part of the country would particularly benefit by the new route to the coast. He thought that something had been gained by the promise of the Minister that he would institute an inquiry. If the Minister made such an investigation he thought that he would come back to the House next year with more respect for the proposed mineral line. He believed that they would get a little more satisfaction from the present Minister than they got from his predecessor. As to the value of the coal traffic, the Minister would realise the tremendous profit that was being made by carrying coal, and if the traffic were doubled the profit would be doubled also.

The Minister also should understand that if a little further facility was given them for carrying coal, they might get a tremendous trade with the East, in fact, it was quite possible that the coal traffic in Natal might be doubled or trebled within a few years. If the Minister thought it would take two or three years to build this line, why did he not get out a survey in the meantime. The time would come when they would want an alternative line as well as an improved line, and they would want a line through Zululand also.

said the Minister had told them that he was prepared to accept the motion for an inquiry, but that inquiry would have little effect upon the Board, as they had already made up their minds. Did it not appeal to the Minister that they should have made a survey of the route before these large sums of money were spent? He thought the Minister should have made a survey of that other portion to see if it would not have been better. He thought they all recognised the reason, but surely every member of the House must know that no Government would attempt to sign a similar agreement whereby 55 per cent, of the trade of the Union passed through a non-Union port. Surely, as a Union, they were going to build up their trade from every standpoint? He was not wedded to the alternative route, but what they wanted was the best line. It would probably provide a little food for thought if the Minister would consider whether it was advisable to spend such large amounts of money without going into the matter thoroughly.

said he did not think it was possible for the House to come to any conclusion on the matter, because he noticed that the Minister did not seem to be paying attention to what was being said. Personally, he had been very much impressed by the remarks of the hon. member for Durban, Central, who was more qualified to speak upon that question than any member of the House. If he understood the Minister aright, it seemed to be a question of improving the gradient or doubling the main line, or building an alternative line. The Minister had not taken the House into his confidence; it was a question of very great importance, and now that they had entered into Union it was no longer a question of this port and that port, but a question of Union, and the most economic manner in which they could deal with their trade. (Hear, hear.) He was astonished that the Minister had said that he had not promised’ a survey, but had promised an inspection. They were going to deal with the proposition of an alternative line which was going to cost four or five millions, and surely the House was entitled to know the facts connected with the survey. Proceeding, the hon. member said he was sorry that the Minister without Portfolio was not in his place, because a statement made by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger), was of such a serious nature that it demanded the immediate attention of the Government. It was the duty of the Government to test the statements made by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, for what did they portend, but the company with whom they were going to enter into a contract for carrying their mails, had itself entered into a contract with a combination of coal owners to the effect that no coal would be carried to Cape Town or other parts except by the ships of this combination. He hoped before the mail contract was finally ratified it would be made clear that there was no justification for charges of this sort.

said he was more than pleased to hear the Minister say that he was going to have an inquiry as to whether it would be possible to build an alternative line in Natal direct to the coal fields. He was very much surprised, and he deeply regretted that, the Minister should have deliberately gone out of his way, in effect, to say that he was prepared to waste the money of the country because, to use his own words, an inspection had been promised by his predecessor, and he would redeem that promise to satisfy the hon. member for Umlazi, and one or two who agreed with him. He would ask, if that were going to be the spirit of the inquiry, what was going to be the outcome of it? He submitted that the value of an industry to a country was the benefit the people of that country got out of it. He believed that in the coal industry of Natal only about 600 white men were employed, compared to about 4,000 Indians and natives. He would remind the hon. member for Fort Beaufort that the question of the coal combine to which he had referred was brought to the notice of the House last Friday afternoon by himself, and at that time he submitted strong evidence, though it was not complete, and there was one weak link in it, that there was something taking place in South Africa, and in Natal in particular, which was detrimental to the trade of this country in the shape of the coal combine which was springing up. His remarks on that occasion, were treated with contempt and indifference. The Minister of Mines did not make any statement. He went carefully out of his way to ask the Minister of Mines to make inquiries and see whether they were violating clause 6 of the Post Office Act. He was in favour of the building of an alternative line, not to develop the coal combine, but in order that it might open the country and relieve the congestion of traffic and reduce the distance, from the port of Natal to the competitive area of the Transvaal by about 40 miles, and save much of the trade that now went through Delagoa Bay. He hoped that, when the Mozambique treaty came up for ratification, at some future date, the hon. member for Fort Beaufort would use his influence with his party to see that that treaty was not ratified. He would point out that since this coal combine had obtained its grip on the coal trade of Natal the price of coal had gone up to consumers in the various centres by from 1s. to 2s. a ton, and, coincident with that, the railway rates from the Natal coal fields down to the port had been reduced by about 1s. 8d. per ton. The taxpayers of the country were paying for the reduction of rates, and the coal combine were pocketing that reduction, and at the same time putting up the price of coal to the local consumers.

said he wished to congratulate the Minister upon his promise to have an inspection made of the route. The hon. member for Durban, Central, had referred to an inquiry held about 22 or 23 years ago as to the best route, but he would point out that since then the northern territory had been annexed to Natal, and this had brought an enormous increase of traffic. Most of that traffic came from about 100 miles east to feed that line. He thought it was most necessary, and it was only practicable that the inspection should include the other routes indicated by the hon. member for Zululand. He would like the hon. member for Durban, Central (Sir D. Hunter), to reconcile the statement he made to the Natal Government in 1902. when this matter of the alternative line was under discussion, that the maximum capacity of the present main line was 3,000 tons a day, with the fact that now the same line was carrying over 30,000 tons a day. In conclusion, the hon. member expressed the hope that the other routes would be inspected.

thought a little confusion had arisen as to these alternative routes. The line advocated by the hon. member for Umlazi (Mr. Fawcus) was a portion, and only a portion, of the old alternative railway which was advocated in the Natal Parliament. When people were advocating the construction of the original alternative railway the northern portion of Zululand had not been developed so as to be concerned so much in the calculations, but a very valuable coal field existed in that area, and it would become a question in the future whether that area should be developed or whether the alternative railway referred to by the hon. member for Umlazi should be constructed. He (Mr. Wiltshire) was one of the original advocates of the construction of the old alternative railway, and he dared say he was the only one who rode over the different routes. The Minister had the survey of three routes at his command therefore he would be able, with the aid of his technical advisers to form conclusions as to the value, cost and desirability of carrying through the work. It had been said that the gentlemen who recently formed a coal combine in Natal were the same who advocated the other alternative line. That was an ominous fact, if it were a fact, but he would like to say that since the period when the hon. member for Durban, Central (Sir D. Hunter) presented his report very great changes had taken place, which entirely altered the complexion of the whole of the case. (Hear, hear.) If the House had only one sum of money to deal with it would be more just to Zululand and the Northern Territories that it should be spent in building a railway there. They heard from the Government’s technical advisers that in a very short time the carrying capacity of the Natal main line would be doubled. His information was that its carrying capacity would be increased by 70 per cent. If that were so it would be a long time before the railway advocated by the hon. member for Umlazi would be necessary. He (Mr. Wiltshire) did not think it would be necessary when the improvements to the main line were completed. There was still a wider question: if they were going to have the best railway—a railway which would be the best in South Africa, and one of great future possibilities—that railway would go by another route than those which had been spoken of to the great centres of industry—and it would not go, except for a very short distance, over the existing line nor over the one advocated by the hon. member for Umlazi at all; therefore, if they had to consider the advantage to the whole Union, they would have to consider the third route, and not only the two that had been mentioned.

said he rose for the purpose of making an amendment to the motion, but would like to make a few remarks before doing so— the matter was of very great importance. He did not want to treat the subject from a Natal point of view, for the Natal people were better able than any other section in the House to bring their grievances before the House, and in many cases they got what they asked for. (“No, no.”) If they had the good assurance from the hon. the Minister that he was going to make a close inspection of that particular line which they were advocating, he had no doubt it would be in the interests of the Union at large. The question of fuel was a very serious matter for any country. Where they had not got cheap fuel in the country, very little could be done; it was only when they had plenty of fuel that the country could be properly developed. The coal fields in South Africa were only on one side of the Union. He thought they did not make sufficient use of their coal as a means of fuel, because it was very difficult to get. In some places the railways were far away, and where the railways were, they found the fuel was not cheap enough. It was for the hon. Minister to prove that they could not do better. They found a large number of people anxious for development who were going in for oil fuel, but they had not got oil fuel in this country, and were dependent on oil brought in from other parts of the world, and it was a very expensive fuel. Large quantities of trees were being burnt down for purposes of charcoal. The Government was doing what it could to supply farmers with charcoal from their extensive forests, but a large extent of the country was being denuded.

The remarks of the hon. member are quite outside the motion.

pointed out that he wanted to move an amendment.

It is a question of a survey for a railway, and I do not think the amendment is germane to the main motion.

I submit to your ruling, and if I cannot propose this amendment, I submit that the matter appeared to me that it would facilitate coal distribution and the working of the railway.

asked leave of the House to refer to a matter that had been introduced by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central. The hon. member for Cape Town, Central (said the Minister) raised the question of an attempt to control the coal trade of South Africa. With regard to that matter, he (the hon. Minister) had not been unmindful of what had been taking place for some time past. Although there was no doubt at present a tendency to take such action as would tend towards control in certain hands of the coal trade, particularly affecting the bunkering trade of Table Bay, the evidence which he had before him at present was not of such a nature as would justify him in saying that there existed at the present time such a combination as could be dealt with under the Post Office Act. That was the present position, but he would add that they were watching the action taken in certain quarters, which undoubtedly did tend towards control, to the extent of a monopoly. That might be the object, and he was afraid that appearances indicated that that was the object—to obtain central control, such a control of the coal trade of South Africa as would be undoubtedly detrimental to the interests of the people of South Africa. If satisfied that such was the case, and he was watching the course of events very carefully indeed, that there existed such a combination as was intended to establish such a monopoly, then it was his intention to take whatever action he might be able to in order to combat that in the interests of the people. He would promise the House that there would be no negligence or lack of keenness in dealing with such a state of affairs. At present, however, although he was bound to say that he noticed the tendency, there was not sufficient evidence of such a combination as would entitle him to say it was detrimental to the interests of the country.

said the House would be very much relieved to hear the statement made by the hon. Minister. They on the cross-benches were aware of these tendencies, and were fully alive to the fact that the Union-Castle Co. and the collieries that had been referred to had entered into an arrangement which was of such a character as would ultimately, and in the very near future, tend to the detriment of the interests of the people of this country. It showed what an extraordinary lack of interest was taken in the interests of this country at large and in the debates of the House by hon. members. Here they had the hon. member for Victoria West getting up in a state of panic and referring to dangers that were likely to ensue as a result of this combination in Natal. The hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) had the excuse that he had not been in the House on Monday evening, but that excuse could not be made by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir T. W. Smartt) or the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger), who had both been present. The hon. member for Cape Town, Central, had just found out that they (the Labour Party) had the same letters on the previous Friday. He was glad that the Minister of Railways and Harbours had information on that danger, and had said that he was going to cope with it, if necessary, and if it were possible to do so. The hon. member went on to deal with the mail contract, when

said that the hon. member was travelling beyond the motion, and was now speaking on the mail contract.

I only want to make clear that this coal combine’s whole and sole object is to get coal carried cheaper from the mines to Durban, and may sell this coal cheaper in other parts of the world, and act detrimentally to the interests of the citizens of the Union. The hon. member added that it was remarkable that leading citizens of the country such as hon. members on the front benches of the Opposition had not kept their eyes on what was happening in the country. They (the Labour Party) had known all the time what was happening. He was in favour of an engineering survey being made, and he said, together with the mover of the motion, that a proper survey should be made of the proposed route, with the ultimate object, if the survey proved satisfactory, of carrying goods over the railway at cheaper rates than they could be carried at present.

said that he had known of that matter, and letters had reached other people as well, but there were insufficient grounds to base a charge against the shipping company or anyone else. He was as little connected with the shipping companies as he was with the Government. He did not think it would do any good to create a care, and he thought the statement should have been made when they were discussing the mail contract.

We made it.

went on to say that he regretted that the statement made by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger) had not been made at the time the mail contract was before the House, or that a statement had not been made by the Minister at the time. The Union-Castle Co. appeared to have acquired an interest in ten collieries to protect themselves, and in order to secure a certain amount of coal. But that was not a monopoly, to begin with, but a common business precaution, although it might develop into something improper. They had undertaken to ship a certain amount of coal, and had undertaken to take the whole of the surplus output of those collieries, and presumably they had not had enough coal at the pit’s mouth to supply their customers—they must presume that. The answer they got from the companies would be that they did not have the coal. Not long ago there had been a complaint made against the Railway Administration because there was a non paying rate on coal from the Transvaal in order to foster the bunkering trade at Cape Town; but the people of the whole country had to pay for that. There was more than one side to the question. While he was strongly in favour of the Government setting its face against any monopoly to throttle the trade of this country, he did not think that it necessarily meant that it must take up private quarrels. At the same time, he did not think that in the ordinary course of business it was good policy on the part of the Government to carry stuff at a non-paying rate by rail, if that stuff could be carried by sea at a reasonable rate. It was no use them going on with what might eventually prove to be a mare’s nest. Let them have the whole of the information before them. If there was a monopoly, if there was the slightest intention of a monopoly that was detrimental to the trade of this country, then he thought that the House would unanimously move to take action. But he did not think that it would be proper for the House to take action without having before it all the information that was available. Continuing, he said that when the limit of 3,000 tons a day was placed on the line none of the deviations had been made. Anybody who had travelled over the section knew the switchback nature of the line. He looked forward to the time when Durban would be one of the greatest ports of the Southern Hemisphere, and the greatest port in South Africa. It could not be made the greatest port at the present time, for there were other things that claimed their attention. When they laid their line for future development they must look for a route that would commend itself from a business point of view. This line would not be built for the purpose of opening up a few coal fields of Natal, but for the whole of the traffic to the interior. He thought that they ought to have a survey, though it might cost a great deal.

£10,000.

Yes.

It would be money well spent.

said it would be several years before they would be able to spend five millions on a railway.

said that no detailed survey was made before a line was constructed. An inspection was made.

said from what the Minister said, an inspection and not a detailed survey was made prior to the construction of a line. At any rate, such an engineering inspection must be fairly accurate. What he wanted was that they should work upon some plan that would eventually come in for the future great development of the country.

said he thought that the House must be congratulated on the reasonable attitude that had been adopted by the Minister of Railways and Harbours. He thought that the reply indicated that the Ministry and the Minister were adopting a new position in regard to this important matter. He had no doubt that the result of the engineering inspection would be such as to induce the Minister to eventually proceed with a detailed survey and then the construction of the line. The hon. member for Cape Town, Central, was wrong when he surmised that the line was intended to be constructed in the interests of the coal fields. His idea was that the country should be saved money. The Minister had said that other lines in other parts of the country came before this. Well, his idea was to save money—that the line should be built for two millions, and that the remainder of the five millions could go towards the construction of those other lines of railway. The hon. member for Vryheid went out of his way to attack the hon. member for Durban and the report that he had made. The hon. member for Vryheid apparently knew very little about the matter, else he would have known that, since the report made by the hon. member for Durban, over a million had been spent on heavier rails, heavier engines, and heavier rolling-stock. What they were talking about was almost a new line. The hon. member for Greyville had criticised some remarks of his with reference to State-owned railways; unfortunately they had these State railways, but he thought that most men would agree that if they had been owned privately, these surveys would have been brought out. He hoped that when the inspection was made, the Minister would find the result very satisfactory, and that they would go on with the flying survey.

The motion was agreed to.

said there was an affinity between the motion that they had just carried and the present motion, and that, in fact, if Natal had not been robbed of her trade by this pernicious Treaty, the discussion that they had just listened to would have been unnecessary. They failed to put the responsibility of this agreement on the right shoulders They were told by the Minister that he had power to veto this agreement, but he had failed to do so. Clause 15 distinctly pointed out that the Government should be consulted in deferring payment of these wages. It rested with the Government entirely to exercise this power of veto, which was given to them under clause 15. The Minister said this was not a matter that concerned the Government at all: it was a matter between employer and employee; and asked were they going to step in and alter the agreement, which was for the benefit of the native? He would like to ask in what way the natives or their wives and children would benefit by this agreement. It was hypocrisy to say that the agreement had been made in the interests of the natives. He knew that there were desertions, but they were often excusable, as a native might be afflicted with lung trouble, which caused him to desert from the mines. Who would receive the deferred wages of these natives?

He submitted that the Minister was guilty of gross callousness in not looking into the matter. He was surprised that some of the hon. members on his right agreed with the course which had been taken by the Minister. Hon. members were always setting themselves up as the defenders of British interests and fair play, as they called it. Did they know that in this agreement it was provided that if any difference should arise in regard to the carrying out of the agreement, the matter was to be referred to a Hague tribunal, that two arbitrators were to be appointed, and that the determining arbitrator should not be a person of British nationality? In reference to the point made by the hon. member for Queen’s Town that the natives should have the right to take their wages home, he would point out that there was a difference between a native who belonged to the Union taking his wages home, because that money was not lost to the Union, and a native who came from a foreign territory taking his wages home, because that money was lost altogether to the Union. But this agreement did not constitute a parallel case. The native was given no choice in the matter. The native in this agreement was regarded as nothing more than a chattel. The industries of this country could not always be carried on the present basis. It would have to be reconstructed on a white basis some time. He wondered what the merchants of this country would say if they were told that only half the wages of white workers brought to this country were to be made available to be spent here by agreement between the Government of the country from whence they came and the employers. The Minister had said that the Johannesburg Chamber of Commerce had passed a resolution to the effect that they were not prepared to support the petition which was in course of circulation on the Witwatersrand. He had led them to believe that the Johannesburg Chamber of Commerce fully approved of this agreement. He omitted to tell the House, in the first place, that the Chambers of Commerce representing other parts of the Rand had approved of the petition. He also omitted to tell them at the time the Johannesburg Chamber of Commerce considered the matter it was stated at the meeting that they had been distinctly told by the Government that the agreement was unalterable, and, consequently, they saw no point in supporting the petition. He considered that the Government had no right to go over the head of the native and sign away his wages in this fashion. He was the cheapest worker in the world, and that was owing chiefly to his ignorance, but he should be entitled to do what he liked with the little he did receive. The Minister had said that it was not yet too late, and that at any time he could end the agreement. If that were the case, he would appeal, if necessary, to the Minister to immediately step in and end this agreement. As time would not permit that day of a full discussion of such an important matter, he sincerely hoped that some other favourable day would be given for the purpose.

said he took a common-sense view of the matter. It was the duty of a man to provide for his wife and family, and it would be better that the wages of the Mozambique natives should be sent to their homes for this purpose than to be spent on vicious pleasures on the Rand. (Hear, hear.) About 80,000 natives went to the Rand from the Transkei, and he was entirely in favour of as large a proportion as possible of their wages being sent back to be spent in the territories whence they came. He was surprised at the amendment of the hon. member for Zoutpansberg (Mr. Mentz). He (Mr. Schreiner) believed that we could trust the Portuguese Government in this matter, and there was no evidence that there was any intention to “bilk” the natives out of their wages when they returned to their homes.

associated himself with the remarks of the hon. member for Tembuland. It was very desirable that, the natives from the Transkei, as well as those from Portuguese East Africa, should be able to send half of their wages to their families.

said he noticed that no one else wished to take part in the debate, so he would reply to some of the points raised. Before dealing with the arguments of the hon. Minister he would say to the hon. member for Tembuland that there was no reason at all why any native either from the Transkei or Portuguese East Africa should not remit as much of his wages as he liked to his wife and family. The Native Affairs Department saw to it that any native from the Transkei had ample opportunity of doing so. The curator had the power to arrange for remittances, and not a single word which they (the Labour Party) had said could be taken or understood as an objection to natives sending their wages to their families. As to the hon. member for Tembuland’s and the Minister’s great solicitude for the natives, their (the Labour Party’s) position was infinitely more in the interests of the native than the position taken up by the hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Schreiner). As to what the Minister of Native Affairs had said, amongst those papers there was a legal opinion by the law advisers of the Crown that one portion of the new agreement was in conflict with the Convention, but in the papers laid on the Table of the House there was not that legal opinion, nor the case on which they had given that legal opinion. As to what had been said, that the Government did not have the power, they had ample power to put a stop to it. The extension of the term served was against the Convention. Under clause 15 of the Native Labour Regulation Act, the Government could refuse to give written consent to the Director of the payment of wages to anyone else but the native labourer. He, for one, would refuse to accept the Minister’s statement that that point had been put fairly and squarely to the legal advisers of the Crown, unless he had that statement in the papers. The Government, in spite of the wranglings in their own party, were in such a secure position that they did not even attempt to listen to criticisms; and he hoped that the Minister of Native Affairs would pay some attention to what was being said, instead of talking to his colleagues. He did not doubt the Minister’s word, but he had found that the Minister was so hazy about matters that concerned his department that he (the speaker) did not attach much importance to anything that came from his Ministerial bench. He would only point out one instance, and that in connection with the wages paid to the natives. The Minister was only a small matter of three millions out. (Laughter.) The Ministry could stop this arrangement by saying to the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association: “If you don’t make some other arrangement we will stop your recruiting licences.” If the law advisers of the Crown had given the advice the Ministers said they had, then the only thing he (the speaker) could suggest was that when next the Government made an arrangement with the Portuguese Government they should engage a Portuguese lawyer. (Laughter.) The Minister, when defending himself, gibed at the cross-benches, and had compared him (the speaker) to one of Dickens’ characters. While the Minister was speaking, he (Mr. Creswell) could only think of the Minister as the modern South African Parliamentary prototype of Mr. Pecksniff. (Laughter.) Did the Minister really mean what he said when he informed the House that this contract had been entered into in the interests of the women and children? Surely he did not mean them to believe that? There was no reliance upon the bona fides of the Minister’s argument. If it was wrong to submit the question of Eisenberg to a Select Committee, it was absurd to have this matter referred to a Select Committee. There was nothing for them to refer to a Select Committee. The Minister hardly opened his mouth without misleading the House. He said that this was not an agreement of the Government’s at all: it was a private contract between employer and employee. He (Mr. Creswell) declared that this was an agreement between the Portuguese Government and the W.W. Rand Native Labour Association. The hon. member (proceeding) quoted from some documents, showing communications that had been received from the Minister’s Department with reference to deferred pay to Mozambique natives. The hon. member proceeded to read certain correspondence, from which, he said, it appeared that the then Minister of Native Affairs did not even remember to whom he had given his assent to the agreement. He added that they would accept the amendment of the hon. member for Zoutspansberg. The Minister of Native Affairs could annul this agreement, and the reason why he did not was not because he could not, but because he would not.

moved the adjournment of the debate.

seconded.

said he hoped this debate would not be adjourned. If the matter were not finished that evening, it would never be finished. He asked the Prime Minister—if he would deign to give his attention to so inconsiderable a person as a member on the cross-benches—if he would give Government time for the conclusion of the discussion?

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was carried.

called for a division, which was taken, with the following result:

moved that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, the 19th instant.

Agreed to.