From J. O. Player, styling himself Mayor, and others, Town Councillors of the borough of Vryheid, Natal, praying for the appointment of a Select Committee to consider (1) the grant to the said borough of a sum of money as compensation for the loss of the use of the water of the stream Klein Magot, the right to which is at present reserved to the Railway Administration, and (2) the remission of the Government’s claim to the sum of £1,577. being the amount paid by the Natal Government in connection with the construction of a reservoir for the inhabitants of Vryheid, the liability for which amount was reluctantly assumed by the inhabitants of Vryheid on the establishment there of a township under Law 11 of 1881 (Natal).

From Grace Beerling, a teacher under the Education Department, praying for the condonation of certain breaks in her service, or for other relief.

report of Board of Trustees South African Public Library.

amended estimate (cartage services, harbours) of expenditure South African Railways 1913-’14.

papers relating to new contract between the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association and the Portuguese authorities.

memorandum in regard to loans to Co-Operative Wineries (Cape).

Estimates of Additional Expenditure to be defrayed from Revenue and loan Funds year ending 31st March, 1913.

said that he desired to move as an unopposed motion that he should be discharged from service on the Financial Relations Bill Select Committee and that the member for Georgetown (Mr. Andrews) be appointed in his stead.

The hon. member must give notice.

said he would give notice accordingly.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What number of passengers left Franklin station by rail during the months of November, December, and January, respectively; (2) what number of passengers arrived there during the three months mentioned; (3) what tonnage of goods left the station during the three months mentioned; and (4) what tonnage of goods arrived at the station during the same period?

replied:

1. (1) Number of passengers of all classes who left Franklin station by rail:

1. (2) Number of passengers of all classes who arrived at Franklin by rail:

1. (3) Tonnage of goods forwarded from Franklin by rail:

1. (4) Tonnage of goods, received at Franklin by rail:

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) What quantity of spirits, on which excise was paid in the Cape Province, was yearly imported during the years 1904 to 1912, both years inclusive;(2) how much money was collected each year under Act No. 26 of 1905 (Cape); (3) on what quantity of Cape spirituous liquors was excise yearly paid from 1906 to 1912, both years inclusive: (4) what quantity of Cape spirituous liquors was yearly exported to the other Provinces from 1905 to 1912, both years inclusive; and (5) how much excise was annually paid in the other Provinces on each of the different spirituous liquors imported from the Cape Province from 1st February, 1909?

replied: (1) No surtax was imposed on foreign spirits in the late Cape Colony prior to the 15th June, 1905; consequently the information required by the hon. member can be given only in respect of the period subsequent to that date. The figures, which represent bulk gallons, are as follows: In 1905 (from 15th June to 31st December, including all stocks on hand on the former date), 146.648; in 1906, 218,433; in 1907, 177,086; in 1908, 124,546; in 1909, 108,156; in 1910, 114,096; in 1911, 124,246; in 1912, 137,716. (2) In 1905 (from 15th June to 31st December. including all stocks on hand on the former date), £43,994; in 1906, £65,530; in 1907, £53,126; in 1908, £37,364; in 1909, £32,447; in 1910, £34,229: in 1911, £37,274; in 1912, £41,315. (3) In 1906, 763,943 proof gallons; in 1907, 759,286; in 1908, 640,417; in 1909, 617,440; in 1910, 827,680: in 1911, 838,269; in 1912, 823,079. (4) In 1905, 89.625 proof gallons; in 1906, 142,434; in 1907, 210.206; in 1908, 220,284; in 1909, 259,535; in 1910, 313,437; in 1911, 328,461; in 1912, 329,067. (5) No distinction between the different classes of spirituous liquors liable to excise duty was made until the 1st February, 1910, when the Excise Duties Amendment Act, 1909 (Cape) came into operation: consequently the separate figures required by the hon. member cannot be given in respect of any period prior to that date. The figures available are as follows: In 1909, on spirituous liquors of all classes, £116,790; in 1910 (a) on spirituous liquors of all classes during January. £11,504. (b) on grape brandy and dop from 1st February to 31st December. £115,582, (c) on wine brandy from 1st February to 31st December. £13.960; in 1911 (a) on grape brandy and dop. £100,373. (b) on wine brandy. £47,434; in 1912 (a) on grape brandy and dop. £105,695. (b) on wine brandy, £42,385.

When the Tuberculosis Commission will complete its work and whether legislation for combating tuberculosis will be introduced during the present session?

The Commission is still busy visiting certain areas where tuberculosis is believed to be prevalent, and collecting evidence, and it is unlikely that it will be able to present a report during the present session.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: whether in connection with the Port Elizabeth-Avontuur Railway line he is aware of: (1) The want of storing room for goods at the sidings and of shelter for Europeans at the stations and sidings; (2) the necessity for enlarging the station at Humansdorp to enable the staff to cope with the work and to provide for the comfort of the travelling public; and (3) the necessity of enclosing the goods delivery platforms in order to prevent stock from destroying produce?

(1) The goods shed at Assegai Bosch is being extended and the Administration has had no complaints of shortage of storage accommodation elsewhere on this line. Neither has any complaint in regard to lack of shelters been made since this question was raised in the House last year by the honourable member for Humansdorp. There are several recognised stopping places on the line at which there are no shelters, but at such places the traffic is not sufficient to justify the expenditure. (2) Arrangements are being made to extend Humansdorp Station and effect certain improvements there, and the work will be commenced as soon as material arrives. (3) Presumably what is referred to is the goods delivery platform at Humansdorp; if so, the erection of a fence and gates has been authorised and the work will be started in the course of a few days.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: Whether in view of the fact that the Department has decided to give better accommodation to the offices at Humansdorp, he will have the necessary change carried into effect with the least possible delay; and whether he will cause the telephone line now under construction to Mist Kraal to be extended to Andries Kraal, Cambria, and Good Hope?

(1). Increased accommodation will be provided at Humansdorp for postal purposes as early as practicable. (2) The question of extending to Cambria and Good Hope the Mist Kraal telephone line now under construction is being looked into. The cost of the proposed additional work would be considerable.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) When the Government proposes to lay on the Table of the House the overdue report, schedule, and statement required by sections 10, 11, and 23 respectively of the Land Settlement Act, 1912; and (2) whether the Government will undertake to see that in future the provisions of the law in this respect are complied with?

No land was purchased or exchanged under sections 10 and 11 of the Land Settlement Act, 1912, during the calendar year 1912, and no allotments were made under chapter 3; consequently no report to the House was necessary in terms of the sections quoted. It may be pointed out for the information of the hon. member that the Act was brought into operation on the 16th October, 1912, and that in terms of section 16 of the Act, holdings available for allotment have to be advertised for a period of ten weeks before applications therefor can be considered by the Land Boards. Moreover, as the Boards have to report in terms of section 15 on Crown lands suitable for disposal in terms of the Act, and as this means inspection and valuation by members of the Boards concerned, it will be seen that some time must necessarily elapse before the land can be advertised and that it was impossible that land could be allotted in terms of chapter 3 during the calendar year 1912.

asked the Minister of Public Works: (1) Whether the Provincial Council of the Transvaal has recommended to the Government the building of a wagon-bridge over the Vaal River at Vereeniging; and (2) seeing that Vereeniging is a prominent and important centre, whether the Government intends to build such a bridge; and, if so, when?

(1) Yes; in accordance with practice, the matter has been referred to the Provincial Government of the Orange Free State, which is affected by the proposal, and no reply has yet been received. (2) The necessity for providing a bridge at Vereeniging will be considered when a reply has been received from the Orange Free State Administration.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether it is the intention of the Government to make provision during the coming year at Potchefstroom or other agricultural college or experimental farm, whereby instruction and training in agriculture may be made available for women?

I regret it will not be possible to make provision for women to undertake complete courses of agriculture at any of the agricultural schools during the coming year. The institutions, which are very young, are as yet not as fully equipped as they ought to be for the work they have in hand. The development of the schools is being pushed on with, but it necessarily takes time, and, until the institutions are more advanced than at present, it would not be possible to arrange for complete courses of agricultural instruction for women, though at some of the schools instruction can be given to women in subjects like horticulture, poultry-keeping, and dairying, provided they can arrange privately for board and lodging.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether the Transvaal Leasehold Townships Commission reported in 1912 that the Luipaardsvlei Estate and G.M. Co., Ltd., agreed to the conversion of stands in Luipaardsvlei into freehold on a basis of fifteen years’ capitalisation of the rent; (2) whether in addition to the terms of purchase, the company has the right to make conditions of purchase; (3) whether in accordance with their right to make conditions of purchase, the company issued a circular to standholders requiring those who wished to convert their stands to pay an unnamed sum in respect of survey fees and other charges, and further to employ and pay the company’s solicitors to obtain transfer; (4) whether the total purchase price has in this way become unascertainable, and the standholder finds it impossible to convert his holding, except by giving the company carte blanche to charge what they think fit: and (5) how many standholders have taken advantage of this opportunity to acquire the freehold?

The answer to the first three questions is in the affirmative. (4) It is not quite correct to say that the purchase price is unascertainable. The expenses to be paid under the circular by the purchaser would for an ordinary transfer not exceed £5 for legal expenses, and there would be no survey fees, as the diagram of the township is suitable for the transfer, which can be passed according to the general plan. Up to the present, the conditions have not been submitted for the approval of the Governor-General. There will be no need, however, for applicants to obtain legal assistance, as, when the conditions have been approved, all the standholder has to do after paying the purchase price is to obtain the freehold deed on payment of 10s. from the office of the Registrar of Mining Titles. (5) There has been one transfer in freehold in the Luipaardsvlei Township, and nine agreements between the holders of stands and the township owners, dealing with the purchase of the freehold of ten stands, have been filed in the office of the Registrar of Mining Titles.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs how many of the officials employed by the executive and administrative branches, respectively, of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are Dutch speaking, and how many of them are English speaking?

It would involve much labour and time to obtain the exact figures. The hon. member will, perhaps, be satisfied if I inform him that it is estimated that fully one-half of the employees in the administrative and executive branches of the Post Office have a good working knowledge of Dutch, and that the whole of them can speak English.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that the Urban Police, Cape Town, is so understaffed that men are unable to obtain any of the leave due to them; (2) whether he is aware that the shortage is attributed by the members of the force to mistrust of recent legislation; and (3) what steps, if any, are being taken to meet the shortage?

(1) There is a slight shortage of ten men at present, which does not prevent any men getting their ordinal”-vacation leave. (2 and 3) I am not so aware, and as applications for enrolment are being made daily it is hoped that the Urban Police will be up to full strength in a short time.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) How many applications for miners’ phthisis compensation which were one week old and over, and which were not finally dealt with, were in the hands of the secretary of the Miners’ Phthisis Board on March Ï, 1913 (2) how many hours each day and how many days per week does the Board sit to consider applications; and (3) whether the Minister is aware that the majority of applicants are in straitened circumstances and urgently need speedy settlement of their claims?

(1) The number of applications for compensation for miners’ phthisis which were in the hands of the Board on the 1st March, over one week old, which were yet to be dealt with, was 703. (2) The Board sits on an average for four hours per day and meets five days per week. (3) The answer is in the affirmative, and the Board is doing everything it can to deal promptly with the applications, Naturally there was at first a large amount of arrear work to lie overtaken.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) When the Sunday Observance Commission held their last sitting for the hearing of evidence; (2) whether the report of the Commission has been received, and, if so, when it will be published; and, if not, (3) what is the cause of the delay in the presentation of the Commission’s report?

(1) The last sitting of the Sunday Observance Commission for hearing evidence was on the 26th October. (2) The report of the Commission has not been received. (3) The chairman reports that further information is still being received by the Commission, which is of importance and must receive consideration in view of the fact that the subject matter of the Commission’s inquiries is of great importance both from a social and financial point of view.

asked whether the Government will consider the advisability of so amending the Transvaal Workmen’s Compensation Act as to make it applicable to workmen in Natal?

At present there is no Workmen’s Compensation Act in force in Natal. A consolidated Workmen’s Compensation Act for the Union is being considered, and will be submitted to Parliament in due course when the advisability of extending the provisions of the Transvaal Act to Natal will be carefully considered. When this Bill will be introduced I don’t know, but I hope soon.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether his attention has been called to the statement made in the public Press regarding the serious risk which was run in connection with a large quantity of dynamite at the Kimberley Station; and (2) whether any special instructions have been given with reference to taking special precautions when dynamite, in transit by rail, is left standing at railway stations in centres of population; and whether such precautions were taken in the present instance?

(1) The reply to this question is in the affirmative. (2) The precautions usually taken in dealing with dynamite traffic were strictly observed in this case. As an additional safeguard, instructions were recently issued that all trucks were to be securely locked while conveying explosives. To admit of this being done, special locks have been fitted to explosives trucks as opportunity offered, but unfortunately the truck from which the case of dynamite was extracted at Kimberley was one which has not yet been provided with a lock. Special arrangements are now being made for all trucks not yet provided with suitable locks to be so fitted at the earliest possible date. The truck which was tampered with formed part of a special explosives train. This train was not shunted en route, except when being placed in the north yard sidings, 350 yards north of Kimberley passenger station, where it remained from 8.5 p.m. on the 1st to 1 a.m. on the 2nd instant. To prevent the possibility of a similar occurrence, instructions have been given that trucks containing explosives which cannot be despatched to destination immediately on arrival at Kimberley are to be taken direct to a siding, three miles north of Kimberley, and a watchman placed in charge of them there.

for Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick (Pretoria, East) asked: Whether it is the intention of the Government to remove the Geological Survey Department from Pretoria; and, if so, for what reasons?

There is no intention to remove the Geological Survey Department from Pretoria. The question of the most effective system for the publication of the maps of the survey, including those of the Cape portion of the survey, has been receiving attention, and it is possible that some misconception has arisen as a result of these enquiries.

asked the Minister of the Interior: Whether in view of the fact that the actual and immediate cause of leprosy is unknown, and that there is no adequate evidence of contagion as between human beings, he is prepared to reconsider the case of Heynes, who is confined on Robben Island?

Heynes was last examined on the 8th January, 1913, by the following doctors: Sir Edmond Stevenson, Dr. M. Hewat, Dr. A. E. Thomson, Dr. G. W. Robertson (Government Bacteriologist), Dr. J. H. Cox, and Dr. J. A. Mitchell (Assistant Medical Officer of Health for the Union), and was pronounced by them to be, as he had already been reported before, an active leper. Despite the honourable member’s apparent belief to the contrary, there is a great deal of indisputable evidence on record, which shows that the disease is conveyed from one human being to another, and it has been our unfortunate experience in South Africa, to see entire families become infected, gradually from a single isolated case. A typical instance is that of the Heynes family, of which the father, mother, and two sons are lepers. Many other cases can be quoted amongst respectable families, whilst amongst coloured persons of low class, and natives, whose mode of life and neglect of sanitary measures favour the spread of the disease, the instances of infection from one to another are extremely numerous. With these examples before it, the Government is convinced that the segregation of lepers is imperative in order to prevent the further spread of the disease, and is not prepared to relax the precautions which are now taken.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that the position and condition of certain road crossings on the railway line between Butter-worth and Idutywa are dangerous to the wagon and cart traffic; and (2) whether he will order steps to be taken to remedy this condition of things?

(1) No; the level crossings on the Butterworth-Idutywa line are in good order, considering the heavy rains. (2) Men have been working on these crossings continually for the last six weeks, and the contractors have been notified that the crossings must be maintained in good repair.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether there are any first-aid appliances at Salt River Works; and, if not, (2) whether the Government is prepared to take steps to provide the same at an early date?

(1) There are no first-aid appliances actually in the workshops at Salt River. Any injuries sustained by employees are attended to at the surgery, which is at the entrance to the shops, and at which all necessary first-aid appliances are available. (2) This matter is receiving consideration by the Administration, but expert opinion differs as to the advisability of providing first-aid appliances in the shops.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What is the total quantity of goods rolling-stock at present in service and available for traffic; (2) what is the total number of goods trucks withdrawn from service since the date of the Union of South Africa; and (3) what is the total number of new goods trucks purchased or built and brought into service since the date of the Union of South Africa, classifying (1), (2), and (3) respectively under (a) the number of shorts or four-wheeled trucks with total capacity, (b) the number of bogie trucks with total capacity, (c) the number of bogie hopper trucks with total capacity; (4) what is the number and total haulage capacity of locomotives available for haulage of goods traffic at the present time; (5) what is the number and total haulage capacity of goods locomotives withdrawn from service since the date of the Union of South Africa; (6) what is the number and total capacity of locomotives purchased and brought into service for goods traffic since the date of the Union of South Africa; (7) what is the total number of goods trucks and locomotives on order or in course of construction in the railway shops under the following classification, with the guaranteed, or estimated dates of delivery: (a) the number of shorts or four-wheeled trucks with total capacity, (b) the number of bogie trucks with total capacity, (c) the number of bogie hopper trucks with total capacity, (d) the number of locomotives for goods traffic with total haulage capacity

(1) Merchandise stock at present in service: (a) No., 13,920; class, four-wheeled trucks; aggregate capacity, 168,145 tons. (b) No., 7,689; class, bogie trucks; aggregate capacity, 228,840 tons. (c) No., 673; class, hopper trucks; aggregate capacity, 26,727 tons. Total: No., 22,282; aggregate capacity, 423,712 tons. (2) Merchandise stock withdrawn from service since Union: (a) No., 172; class, four-wheeled trucks; aggregate capacity, 1,464 tons. (b) No., 65; class, bogie trucks; aggregate capacity, 929 tons. (c) Hopper trucks. Total: 237; aggregate capacity, 2,393 tons. (3) Merchandise stock brought into service since date of Union: (a) No., 1,055; class, four-wheeled trucks; aggregate capacity, 20,958 tons; (b) No., 764; class, bogie trucks; aggregate capacity, 28,897 tons, (c) No., 190; class, hopper trucks; aggregate capacity, 8,112 tons. Total: No., 2,009; 57,967 tons. (4) As a general rule locomotives are used for passenger, goods, or mixed trains, according to circumstances and requirements, only a limited number of locomotives of special types being confined solely to passenger or goods work, as the case may be. One thousand three hundred and seventy-one locomotives are at present in service, with an aggregate tractive force of 28,877,609 lb. (There are actually 1,426 engines in stock, 55 of which are not in use, although they have not yet been permanently withdrawn from the list of engines in service.) (5) Sixty-six locomotives were withdrawn from service since Union, with an aggregate tractive force of 910,882 lb. (6) One hundred and four locomotives were brought into service since Union, with an aggregate tractive force of 3,524,340 lb. (7) Stock on order or in course of erection: (a) No., 448; class, four-wheeled trucks; aggregate capacity, 9,207 tons. (b) No., 631; class, bogie trucks; aggregate capacity, 22,880 tons, (c) No., 50; class, hopper trucks; aggregate capacity, 2,500 tons. Total: No., 1,129; tons, 34,587. (d) 75 locomotives, with an aggregate tractive force of 2,686,910 lb. The stock on order, or in course of erection, will be placed in traffic approximately as follows: During three months ending May 31, 1913: 62 four-wheeled trucks, 157 bogie trucks, 50 hopper trucks, 8 locomotives. During three months ending August 31, 1913: 86 four-wheeled trucks, 240 bogie trucks, 30 locomotives. During three months ending November 30, 1913: 200 bogie trucks, 5 locomotives. During three months ending February 28, 1914: 150 four-wheeled trucks, 17 bogie trucks, 16 locomotives. During three months ending May 31, 1914: 150 four-wheeled trucks, 17 bogie trucks, 16 locomotives. Total: 448 four-wheeled trucks, 631 bogie trucks, 50 hopper trucks, 75 locomotives. Stock shortly to be ordered, or erected in South Africa: (a) No., 240; class, four-wheeled trucks; aggregate capacity, 4,800 tons. (b) No., 100; class, bogie trucks; aggregate capacity, 3,500 tons. (c) No., 30; class, hopper trucks; aggregate capacity, 1,200 tons. Total: No., 370; tons, 9,500. (d) Twenty-five locomotives, with an aggregate tractive force of 835,850 lb. Stock proposed to be ordered on passing of capital estimates for year 1913-14, which will shortly be submitted to the House: (a) No., 136; class, four-wheeled trucks; aggregate capacity, 1,946 tons. (b) No., 120; class, bogie trucks; aggregate capacity, 4,300 tons. (c) No hopper trucks. Total: No., 256; tons, 6,246. (d) Ten locomotives, with an aggregate tractive force of 355,800 lb.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether the Government intends to introduce this session a Bill reviving practically the whole of the provisions of the Public Health Act of Natal?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Lands whether he will take into favourable consideration the question of placing on the Estimates during the present session a sum for boring for deep subterranean water in the barren parts of the Union?

replied: Ample provision has already been made in the Estimates for the ensuing financial year for ordinary boring operations in the barren parts of the Union, and in the Supplementary Estimates provision will be made for experimental deep boring.

asked the Minister of Defence: (1) Whether he has taken steps to ascertain if it is possible to ration men for the sum of 1s. 6d. per diem, the amount mentioned in the recently published regulations for the Citizen Force; (2) whether he will lay upon the Table the proposed ration scale for the Active Citizen Force when in camp in peace time; and (3) whether any allowance is to be paid for extra messing as is done in the Imperial Army and in the English Territorial Force, as well as in the forces of the other Dominions; and, if so, what the amount of the allowance in South Africa is to be; but, if not, what is to take the place of the allowance?

The answers to the first and second part of this question are in the affirmative. The scale referred to will be laid on the Table as soon as possible. With regard to the third part, I do not anticipate that any extra allowance will be necessary, as based on experience of volunteer camps of exercise in the Transvaal it has been found that liberal rations can be provided within the allowance of 1s. 6d.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) How many of the farms or portions of farms included in the return of farms or portions of farms in the Transvaal Province registered during the years 1910 to 1912 in the names of natives which was laid on the Table of the House on the 24th February, 1913, were registered previously to 1910 in the name of the Commissioner of Native Affairs in trust for the native owners, and what was their extent and value; (2) in how many cases in addition to those of Mara and Buisplaats in Zoutpansberg did registration not indicate purchase, but merely registration of land already in possession of natives by grants without purchase; (3) what was the date of purchase by the present native owner of each farm, or portion of farm purchased, which is included in the return; and (4) what is the name of the person or body from whom each farm or portion of farm was bought or transferred?

said he had been obliged to telegraph for the information, which would be furnished when obtained.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What is the number of railway employees (not officers) who, not being contributors to any superannuation fund at the time of or since Union, were retrenched from the Durban workshops and the Greyville running shed, either through having reached the age limit or re-organisation of staff, between the period 31st May, 1910, and 31st December, 1912; (2) what was the length of service, grade, and wages of each such employee; (3) what was the amount of gratuity each received; and (4) upon what basis were such gratuities calculated?

Allen, M.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, house painter; wage, 11s. per diem; length of service, 18 years 11 months; amount of gratuity, £40 6s. 2d.

Augustine, L.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, coach painter; wage, £16 18s. per month; length of service, 33 years 2 months; amount of gratuity, £84 3s. 6d.

Bengston, A.; station, Greyville; grade, coalman; wage, 10s. per diem; length of service, 26 years 3 months; amount of gratuity, £38 5s. 4d.

Bowie, J.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, blacksmith; wage, 10s. per diem; length of service, 2 years 4 months; no gratuity payable, having been engaged in purely temporary capacity.

Chambers, R.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, fitter; wage, 14s. per diem; length of service, 9 years 3 months; amount of gratuity, £24 14s. 4d.

Clark, T.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, wagon repairer; wage, 8s. per diem; length of service, 6 years 11 months; amount of gratuity, £9 14s. 9d.

Cubbon, E.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, blacksmith; wage, 13s. per diem; length of service, 9 years 9 months; amount of gratuity, £23 14s. 5d.

Maulgue, J. C.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, grinder; wage, 12s. per diem; length of service, 29 years 8 months; amount of gratuity, £69 16s. 2d.

Mundy, J.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, general fitter; wage, £16 12s. per month; length of service, 32 years 8 months; amount of gratuity, £81 17s. 2d.

White, H.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, pipe fitter; wage, 13s. per diem; length of service, 23 years 6 months; amount of gratuity, £59 12s. 8d.

Wilce, L.; station, Durban Workshops; grade, coach painter; wage, 10s. per diem; length of service, 9 years 2 months; amount of gratuity, £17 1s. 11d.

Basis of computation of gratuity: There were no regulations in force on the late Natal Government Railways under which these men could be paid gratuities on retirement. The men were, however, given the benefit of the arrangement proposed under the Railways and Harbours Service Bill, then in draft form, the basis of computation being that in operation on the late Central South African Railways at the date of Union, namely, 4 days’ pay per annum in respect of each year’s non-contributory service, and on sliding scale ranging from 25 days’ pay to maximum of 300 days’ pay in respect of contributory service. These men were not contributors, but their service from the 1st March, 1910, the Natal fixed date, was regarded as contributory for gratuity purposes, a deduction being made from the gratuity payable equivalent to the contributions which would have been paid by the men, plus interest, had they actually been contributors to the Superannuation Fund from the fixed date to the date of their retirement.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) What farms (if any) have been purchased by the Government since April 1, 1912; (2) for what purposes and from whom were they purchased; (3) what is the extent, locality and purchase price of each; (4) which (if any) were purchased at public auction; and (5) if any have been disposed of, to whom, at what prices, and upon what conditions were they disposed of?

said that the information would be available when it had been obtained.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) Whether, though there are 87 native lepers in the Pretoria Asylum belonging to the Church of England, and they have raised sufficient funds to build a church, the Government has refused either to put a site at their disposal in the asylum grounds on which they can erect their own buildings or to provide them with a Government building for their separate use; and, if so, what is the reason for the refusal; and (2) what is the extent of the asylum grounds?

I understand that a sum of money was raised in Bloemfontein by the Sisters of St. Michael’s Home with the idea of devoting it to the erection of a church for native lepers at, Sydenham. With the removal of the lepers from that place to Pretoria, the question was subsequently raised, whether the money could be utilised for the erection of an Anglican Church at the Pretoria Leper Asylum. The Minister of the Interior intimated that he was not prepared to allow separate denominations to erect their own buildings within Government asylums, as the Government provided accommodation in which religious services could be held by all sections of the patients. The extent of Pretoria Asylum is 499 morgen—the larger part of which is devoted to grazing and agricultural purposes.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that on all railway tickets and especially on the recently issued books of tickets for use on the Cape Town-Simon’s Town line all information with regard to the issue of the ticket appears only in English; and (2) whether he is not of opinion that the Dutch-speaking section of the public is entitled to have that information published in the Dutch language also?

The trip-bearer tickets recently introduced on the Simon’s Town line are an experimental issue, but if the results show that these tickets are appreciated by the public they will be continued permanently, and arrangements made for the conditions of issue to be printed in both languages.

asked the Minister of Posts and. Telegraphs): (1) If he is aware (a) that in some instances affecting the Post and Telegraph staff the Postmaster-General has declined to allow appeals to the Public Service Commission, and (b) that dissatisfaction exists in the department in question owing to the fact that while communications to the Public Service Commission may only be made through the head of the department, there are no published regulations showing that discretionary powers are vested in the head of the department in this respect; (2) under what authority the Postmaster-General is acting in this matter; and (3) if the Government will take into consideration the advisability of framing and promulgating regulations defining the relations between the Public Service Commission and the rank and file of the service, including the powers of the head of the department in this connection?

(1) (a) I am advised that in no instance where an officer of the Post and Telegraph staff has requested that his case shall be laid before the Public Service Commission has such request been refused. The Public Service Commission, however, has intimated that it is not prepared to deal with any papers connected with matters decided before the appointment of the Commission in August last. Notwithstanding this, where an officer has still desired it his papers have been laid before the Commission, (b) I am not aware of any dissatisfaction. As already stated, all papers have, on request, been placed before the Commission. (2) This question is answered by the replies to (a) and (b). (3) The powers and duties of the Commission are defined in section 2 of the Public Service and Pensions Act, 1912, and the Government does not consider that there is any necessity to promulgate such regulations as are suggested.

asked the Minister of Justice: Whether, in view of the fact that Prieska has railway connection and is the centre or chief town for the districts of Hay, Gordonia, Kenhardt, and Prieska, he will take into consideration the question of making Prieska the seat of the Circuit Court in future?

replied in the affirmative.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware of the undesirable condition of the Magistrate’s Court at Prieska; and (2) whether he will place a sum on the Estimates during the present session for the erection of a suitable building for a Magistrate’s Court?

replied that he would see what could be done.

asked the Minister of Defence: Whether, in view of the fact that nearly £10,000 will be spent in providing clothing for Cadets within the next eighteen months, he will take steps to secure such facilities to tailors within the Union as will enable them to compete against oversea manufacturers?

The question has already been fully answered.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that large numbers of the lower paid clerical staff in the various railway and harbour centres are still being refused their ordinary increments, the reason given being that they have to await regarding; (2) when will the letters of appointment of those employees be issued in accordance with clause 44 of the Railway and Harbour Regulations; and (3) whether in the case of clerks who are not in receipt of the maximum salary of their grade, their increments will be dated back to the time at which their ordinary increases were due?

(1) No increases have been delayed on account of re-grading. Every increase recommended and merited has been authorised where re-grading proposals for the valuation of the appointment held permitted of any further increment being granted. (2) The grading of the individual officers on the salaried staff is well in hand, and will be completed at the earliest possible date. Letters of appointment notifying the officers of the grades in which they have been placed will be issued as soon as the grading is completed. (3) Cases which may be deserving of special consideration will be dealt with on their merits.

asked the Minister of Finance whether he will take steps to ascertain, for the information of this House, what the results of the working of the National Mint in Australia are from a financial point of view?

The Australian mints are branches of the Royal Mint, and confine themselves to the manufacture of gold coins. Australia’s token currency is minted in London on a seigniorage basis, and, in this connection, I would invite attention to the reply which my predecessor returned last year to a question on the subject asked by the hon. member for Cape Town, Gardens (see column 503 of Hansard). There are branches of the Royal Mint at Sydney, Melbourne and Perth. The latest information available at present is for the year 1910. The revenue and expenditure for the branches were for that year: Sydney, revenue, £10,711; expenditure, £15,087; deficit, £4,376. Melbourne: Revenue, £13,294; expenditure, £15,326; deficit, £2,032. Perth: Revenue, £27,963; expenditure, £18,673; surplus, £9,290. The Sydney branch receives an annuity of £15,000 from the Local Government, and an additional amount of £2,000, subject to an annual vote of Parliament. The Melbourne branch receives an annuity of £20,000, and Perth £22,500.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intends introducing legislation this session for the purpose of obtaining suitable land for phthisis sufferers, and if not, when will it do so?

asked that the question be allowed to stand over.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) On what date the Railways and Harbours Grievances Commission submitted their completed report to the Government; and (2) when the report will be laid on the Table of the House?

(1) The fourth and final report of the Railways and Harbours Grievances Commission was formally submitted to the Government on 5th February, 1913, but an advance copy was placed at the disposal of the Minister some weeks prior thereto; (2) the preparation of the Dutch copy is in hand, and will be completed during the course of a week, when it is hoped to lay the report on the Table of the House.

moved that the Select Committee on the Financial Relations Bill have power to take evidence and call for papers.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report upon: (1) The arrangements by which chemical laboratories, under separate control, are attached to the Departments of Agriculture and the Interior; and (2) the management of the Agricultural College at Elsenberg; the committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers, and to consist of nine members. The mover said that members on both sides of the House were agreed that a committee should be appointed to go into this question, and he thought that the proper time to go fully into the matter was when the report came from the Select Committee. He had no intention of criticising officials who were unable to defend themselves in that House. He moved the motion in the interests of chemical research, the agricultural development of this country, and the agricultural institutions of this country, and his object would best be attained by the appointment of a Select Committee. During the discussion of the Estimates last year and the year before, the administration of the Chemical Department came under consideration, and they were told that the state of affairs would be improved. That changed state had not come about. Continuing, the hon. member referred to the good example that was set in the Cape. In 1887 the first chemical laboratory was established at the Cape. It was established as a small agricultural branch attached to the Colonial Secretary’s Department. In 1889 another laboratory was established in connection with the Public Works Department to deal with irrigation and geological work. In the following year a third was established to deal with the testing of foods, seeds and drugs. Then they «established a laboratory in the basement of that building. In 1891, Dr. Juritz was attached to the chemical laboratory established in connection with the chemical branch of the Colonial Secretary’s Office.

In the following year the Lands, Mines, and Agricultural Departments were established, and they were merged into one under one administration; and in 1894 the Foods and Drugs Act was also added to that department, so that the four departments originally established in the Cape were merged into one department under one administrative head. Previous to this, a large amount of money had been expended in Cape Town on outside chemical assistance. A large proportion of the chemico-legal work was done by outside chemists, and the Railway Department and other departments of the State got into the way, owing to the inefficiency of the Government department, of getting outside advice. But by the amalgamation they established in the Cape such a laboratory that all the departments brought their chemical research work to it. In 1902, owing to the pressure of work, a separate laboratory was established for the Eastern Province in Graham’s Town, but so efficient had been the central control after the amalgamation of the four laboratories, that this laboratory was also placed immediately under the control, of the headquarters in Cape Town. From that period, and until 1908, he thought everybody who was acquainted with agricultural matters in the Cape Colony would admit that the laboratories rendered them the greatest possible assistance. Investigations in connection with soil, which he ventured to say were of a most important character to a young country like this, were carried out in a most thorough and efficient manner. Officers were specially trained for this purpose, and the greatest authority on soils in the world had communicated with the department and commended its work. When Union took place, he was one of those who looked forward to the same policy being adopted in connection with the Chemical Department of the Union, because he recognised that with Union they had a good deal of advantages they had not got without Union, and he thought that all the laboratories of the Union would be established under one head. And he was led to think this by a statement made by the Prime Minister last year. He (the hon. member) raised the question on the Estimates, and said it was a serious thing that they should have these laboratories not under one control. His idea was that a large amount of work was liable to be duplicated unless the laboratories were co-ordinated.

He did not pursue the subject any further then because owing to the statement of the Prime Minister he thought a change had taken place, because his right hon. friend informed him that the statement he (the hon. member) made to the House was evidently made under a misunderstanding; that he entirely agreed with the proposals he (the hon. member) made, and that was the manner in which the work was at present being carried out. He said that the chemical research work was combined in one department only, and that Dr. Juritz would continue to examine the soil. That was a statement of a most satisfactory character. Again on May 31 the Minister for Agriculture said the chemical works of the Agricultural Department had not been abolished, and would remain under the Minister of the Interior, Dr. Juritz remaining in control. He (the hon. member) complained of the Chemical Department being taken away from the Department of Agriculture and placed under the administration of the Department of the Interior, not because he did not think that the late Minister of the Interior was not a capable Minister, but because he thought it was a mistake to take important work of that sort from the control of the Department of Agriculture. He recognised that they had made the same mistake in the Cape. After they had amalgamated the departments they thought they would make a change in the direction of the change made by the Union Government, and they transferred the work from the Department of Agriculture to the Department of the Colonial Secretary. He objected because he thought that when they attached them to the Department of the Interior it would be found that it would be considered that the bulk of the work of that department was of a chemico-legal character, and not investigations into the spoils and work of that sort. He maintained that the chemical department should be One department, and that all scientific work should be co-ordinated under one head. He was not pleading that laboratories should not be scattered about the country, but thought they should be under one co-ordinating head. He found now that the Chemical Department was transferred to the Department of the Interior. What happened? They had laboratories at Cape Town, Graham’s Town, Bloemfontein, Johannesburg, and Pretoria, all under the Minister of the Interior. But would the House believe him when he said that of these five chemical laboratories, all under the one ministerial department, only two were under the technical chemical officer: the laboratories at Cape Town and Pretoria. The other three were distinct departments responsible to nobody but the Minister at the head of the department. Besides that they had a Chemical Department under the Department of Agriculture, and they had a laboratory at Pretoria being run under a separate Minister and entirely apart from the other departments. What he said was that the system was a wasteful one and not in the interests of the country. The Prime Minister would remember that when this matter was before the House last year a great deal was made of the attitude of the Department of Agriculture in the United States of America. He found that these, where everybody would admit that the greatest scientific work in connection with agriculture in the world, perhaps, was being done, the whole of the departments were under the Department of Agriculture, and though the different departments did different work, they were all controlled by the Minister of Agriculture. His only surprise was that the excellent advice given had not been carried out. Under the circumstances he thought that at least the committee would be able to determine whether the manner in which they were proceeding was the best in the interests of the country. He knew that agricultural chemistry was a highly-specialised subject, but if they had a laboratory here and a laboratory there, without a scientific head over them, they were going to waste a great deal of their money and they were not going to get the full value for the expenditure. (Hear, hear.) From the time that the department of Dr. Juritz was transferred to the Minister of the Interior, investigation was stopped. (An HON. MEMBER: No.) Well, at least a good deal, if not all, the investigation of the soil was stopped.

Proceeding, the hon. member said he would like to refer to what was perhaps a painful subject. The House would recognise that he was one of those who had always stood up for Elsenberg. He had had many boys who had come from Elsenberg, and although he knew that the institution was far from perfect, it had certainly done good work. (Hear, hear.) They had a man in charge of Elsenberg for five years, and they were so satisfied with his work that they asked him to go on for another three years. When on holiday he received a peremptory cable that his services were no longer required. Sufficient interest, he believed, was not taken in this institution. If this manager was not able to carry on his work, surely the Minister would have known that, and would not have had to dispense with his services while he was on holiday. People had got the idea that there was something wrong at Elsenberg, and therefore they were not sending their boys there. (Hear, hear.) If there was something wrong at Eisenberg, then his hon. friend made the mistake in not investigating it before entering into an agreement with the principal for another three years. He hoped that the good sense of the House would recognise the necessity of appointing this committee, and that it be composed of practical men, who would see that something would be done for an institution which was of great benefit to the country.

seconded the motion.

said that the remarkable point in the speech of his hon. friend was this: that he introduced two entirely diverse matters. The committee might be very competent to inquire into the constitution of Elsenberg, but it might not be competent to inquire what was the best chemical work in respect of agriculture for the Union. It was not the duty of the House to inquire into the internal arrangements of any department. The only thing that he had understood from the speech of his hon. friend was that Dr. Juritz was no longer doing this special soil analysis work. His hon. friend had traced the evolution of the Chemical Department in the old Cape Colony. At the time of Union, in the Province of Natal there were three Chemical Departments, one at Maritzburg, while some chemical researches were conducted with the school at Cedara. Besides that, there was a third laboratory, conducted at Durban. Two of these laboratories were, he believed, under the Department of Agriculture.

In the Transvaal the position had been very much the same and Dr. Theiler’s veterinary work had been conducted under the laboratory work of the Department of the Colonial Secretary. It had been found that that did not work very well, that the veterinary work was of a somewhat special character, and that it would be in the public interest that it should be dissociated from the ordinary chemical laboratory work, and a special department established in agriculture, and that had been done. He did not say that the remarkable development of that laboratory was due to its having been taken away from the other laboratories, but it was remarkable that such a development had taken place in that work, and that results of such importance had been obtained. Besides that, there was also the chemical laboratory under the Department of Mines, and he believed that that laboratory was still conducted in Johannesburg under the Department, of Mines; and there was the third laboratory, conducted by the Agricultural Department, for purely agricultural work. In the Orange Free State there was one laboratory, Which did all the Government work; very much the same as at the Cape at the time of Union. That was the position that the Reorganisation Commission had to deal with at the time of Union, and as appeared from their report, they took evidence, went into the whole question, argued out the whole case, and came to certain conclusions. The hon. Minister went on to quote from the fourth report of the Public Service Commission (p. 25), dealing with the Department of Agriculture. The Commission stated that a case had been made out for concentrating all the chemical work of the Union under one department, with the exception of agricultural work.

That is not done now.

I am merely stating what the Commission reported. He proceeded to read other extracts and the finding of the Commission, and said that the conclusion come to was that, although there was a fair case made out for concentrating the laboratory work of the Union under one department, the agricultural work was of a specialised character, and required a special laboratory to itself. In regard to the Agricultural Colleges, the Commission had made some further recommendations; that these colleges should become, not only centres of instruction, but also centres of research. When the Government came to deal with the matter, they were in the position that the Agricultural Colleges had not been organised on that final basis, and were not equipped with a staff which could carry on investigations and analyses, such as were indicated in the report of the Commission; and, as hon. members would understand, it would take some time. In the meantime, the Government had, as far as possible, carried out the other part of the recommendations of the Commission, and had not finally merged agricultural chemistry with the rest of the chemistry of the Union, but as far as possible were trying to carry out those representations—not entirely—and there he was at issue with his hon. friend opposite. The Agricultural Department had taken the view that the mere analyses of soil were like other analyses, and could be conducted by any capable and efficient chemist; and they continued to be made in the laboratories of the Interior. In Dr. Juritz’s report, the following soil analyses had been made during the last four years: 1909, Cape Town, 9, Graham’s Town, 10; 1910, 40 and 26 respectively; 1911, 62 and 50 respectively and 1912, 76 and 23 respectively.

Who co-ordinates these analyses?

No co-ordination is necessary. Proceeding, he said that no final arrangement with regard to these matters could be come to until the agricultural colleges were properly organised. In the meantime, he did not think that the advice and research even of the most able Select Committee would help them in evolving a better scheme of re-organisation than they had before them. He was told that in the United States the work was under the Secretary of Agriculture, yet there was a division of bureaux and each of these conducted its chemical work and there was no centralised chemical laboratory under a technical head. He did not see that they could carry this much further by a Select Committee. He thought they might leave matters to go on and get these agricultural colleges on a proper footing as regarded their chemical work, and thereafter they might see how the system worked.

said he thought that his hon. friend (Sir T. W. Smartt) had made out a very strong case and the Minister had made out a very weak case. If they wanted to get the best results from scientific investigation they must have at the head of their researches the very best people they could find in the world. They must have the very best chemical laboratory presided over by a scientist of eminence. Such a man could be obtained in England or Germany, for that matter The Union of South Africa, if it were going in for research work, must have a man of very high repute, so that they might have some hope of dealing with the complex problems that faced them in this country. By having a lot of laboratories dotted over the country presided over by men of ordinary qualifications they would never achieve the advancement that they ought to make in this country and which the country was crying out for. Chemical investigations ought to be brought under one head. He thought a Select Committee would be able to carry this matter much further than the Public Service Commission had done. The whole matter seemed to him to have been dealt with in a slipshod sort of way. There was no organisation. The Government appeared to be so busy that it had not time to look into things properly.

We required a University of South Africa where we could have men of world-wide repute who could carry on research work. (Cheers.) Mere analyses could not in themselves give the information that was required, but when they could depend on these analyses they could be referred to qualified persons who could make proper use of the information they contained. A great deal of the backwardness in these matters was due to the slatternly way in which things were done. Proceeding, Sir Lionel said he was astounded at an hon. member of the attainments of the Minister of Finance making so weak a reply to the mover. No harm could be done by the appointment of a Select Committee, even if no good resulted from it, and he hoped the Minister would reconsider his decision. The cause of the whole difficulty was that we did not go to the top of the tree for experts we took a number of inferior articles and planted them all over the country and then expected them to solve intricate problems. (Cheers.) He believed that if a Select Committee were appointed, with power to investigate other cognate subjects, we should probably have a report which would place us on the right road for dealing with these very intricate questions and with some hope of solving them. For botanical research work we relied on the experience of other countries, but very often the results obtained in some other parts of the world might not in all their aspects be applicable to the conditions of South Africa. The prima facie case put up by his hon. friend left the impression that there was a great deal to be investigated. The Minister would be well advised to accept the motion, which would be doing something this session for the welfare of South Africa. (Hear, hear.)

said the mover had introduced that subject from the point of view of the man who knew. Agricultural investigations differed from those which came under the care of medical officers of health. Chemical investigation was so highly scientific and required such close attention that it was not at all likely for men engaged in agricultural chemical investigation to be employed in such delicate analyses as analysing water. He was rather of opinion that the Minister of Finance had taken the correct view. They could not concentrate the whole work of the analytical department in one place in such a large country as the Union. Continuing, the hon. member said he thought it was necessary that they should have laboratories at ports of entry, such as Durban and Cape Town and even Port Elizabeth, so that human diseases brought from over sea, and important matters affecting the public health could be dealt with as quickly as possible. With regard to the suggestion of the hon. member for Yeoville that the University might deal with these matters, he (the speaker) said he thought that only highly qualified technical men should deal with delicate work of this description. Of course, they had heard of some students who were very clever, but this cleverness was not universal. So far as economy and the financial side of the question was concerned, he hesitated to express an opinion, but he thought that the Minister had taken up a correct attitude in other respects.

said that the object of the hon. member for Fort Beaufort was to secure greater economy, and he (the speaker) was astonished that his hon. friend had not gained greater support from the Government. Surely if all work of this kind was placed under one control they would secure greater efficiency, better business management, and greater economy? At the present time, as his hon. friend had pointed out, they had men in different parts of the Union carrying on the same sort of research work under no supreme head, with nobody giving instructions, with nobody seeing that the work was done, and nobody looking after the results of all this work. Every year the estimates were being increased, while the efficiency of this branch of the service was reduced. In that part of the country from whence he came there had been a strong feeling with regard to the Government’s lack of action in regard to gal-lamziekte. Dr. Theiler carried out some research work there, and made recommendations to the Government, but none of these had been carried out. Then he was allowed to go to Europe for twelve months’ holiday. The disease was rampant in that part of the country, and in many instances small farmers had been cleared out of all their stock. These men knew that if was no use buying fresh, stock owing to the prevalence of the disease. It was true that a sort of experimental station was established at Graham’s Town, but that was some distance away from the affected district. Dr. Theiler had been allowed to go to Europe on twelve months holiday, and that was all the answer the farmers had got. He hoped that the Government would allow this Select Committee to be appointed; there was no reason why such a committee should not investigate all the points that had been raised. Surely the Prime Minister, who had the interests of the farmers at heart, would not stand in the way. Dealing with Elsenberg, he said that the state of affairs had simply developed into what was almost a scandal. They heard a lot of talk and also of people taking their sons away from the institution. The great thing to show the country was that they did not wish to smooth over these things, but that they would tackle matters of this sort in a business-like way. That was the object of the motion asking that a committee should be appointed. He could not understand why the Minister was opposed to such a course being pursued. If the Government had the interests of the country at heart it would not endorse the position that had been taken up by the Minister of Finance. He moved that the following sub-section (3) be added to the motion: “The spread of the disease of gal-lamziekte, and the measures taken for its treatment.”

seconded the amendment.

said he did not understand why the Minister of Education had not dealt with this question instead of the Minister of Finance. Surely the University question was not merely a ghost. He would have liked to have heard something from the Minister of Education on this matter. Last year the question of Elsenberg was discussed, and the Minister assured the House that if any institution was in perfect condition it was the College at Elsenberg. Well, they had heard something of what had happened during the last twelve months. He was sorry that the Minister was against the appointment of a Select Committee. If they were not there to go into matters of administration, then he did not know what they were there for. (Hear, hear.) Even the question of Elsenberg itself was a proper subject for an investigation by a Select Committee. It was well known that the school was at present a perfect scandal, and it had become a place, in the mind of every decent-minded scientific farmer, from which to keep his sons. The fact was notorious. They heard very different reports from the boys who attended the other agricultural colleges in the country. Why Elsenberg should have been in this position he could not understand. The hon. members for Port Elizabeth, Central, and Yeoville alluded to the necessity of having chemical investigation into the properties of plants, a most desirable thing. But it could only be done when they had a botanical as well as a chemical laboratory. On what subjects could a Select Committee give advice with greater benefit than that of the Elsenberg College? He was very much disappointed in the reply of the hon. Minister, and would have to join with the hon. members of his side of the House in bringing a little pressure to bear on him. Yesterday he refused to allow a Select Committee to have the power to take evidence and call for papers. The more they considered this matter the more it became apparent that the better it would be for the House, for the Agricultural Department, for Elsenberg College, and for chemical research if a Select Committee were appointed.

said he wished to refer to the second part of the motion, namely to Elsenberg. The Minister of Finance had not replied to it. The agricultural colleges were at present under the Department of Agriculture, which was why the Minister of Education had kept silent. The laboratories came under the Department of the Interior, and as the Minister of the Interior had been prevented by sickness from attending the meetings, the Minister of Finance had replied to the motion because, as late chief of that department he was well acquainted with the matter in question. The speaker agreed with what had been stated by the Minister of Finance. As hon. members knew there was considerable difference of opinion in regard to this question of a Department of Chemistry, and all possible investigations were being made on the subject. He urged that no hurried steps should be taken. The question would have to be settled in a practical way, and would take time. He quite agreed that the laboratory at Cape-Town had done good work, but they had not, then the chances which they now had. There were no Agricultural Colleges, then, but they now had colleges at Elsenberg, Middelburg, Potchefstroom, one in the Free State, and one in Natal, and instead of having only about twenty youths studying scientific agriculture, they now had hundreds of youths from every part of the country attending these colleges. These colleges were intended to give the very best possible education, and in these circumstances he agreed that they must get the best men, the men of the highest qualifications as lecturers. If the chemical work of these colleges could be extended, all analytical work for the people living in the vicinity could be done there, so that a good deal of expense would be saved to farmers, who would no longer be obliged to send articles hundreds of miles away for examination. (Hear, hear). The hon. member for Yeoville had said that they should get the best men possible. Well, the hon. member apparently had never done any agricultural work, otherwise he would know how difficult it was to get such people. Before Union the Transvaal Government decided to try and get experts from Europe, England, America, or other parts—and they had failed, despite offers of the highest possible salaries. Therefore, they had to make the best of the material they had. That, however, did not imply that they were weak; naturally a young country could not expect to avoid mistakes and to have everything as strong and complete as an old country, but there was no cause for alarm or for excessive hurry. Many mistakes were naturally being made, but on the whole there was no cause for alarm. Proceeding; General Botha thought it would have been better if, instead of moving for a Select Committee, the hon. member for Fort Beaufort had asked for all the papers in connection with the matter he had raised to be laid on the Table. He for one, and everybody else as well, exceedingly regretted what had happened at Eisenberg, and he much deplored the fact that the students there should have taken such a step as to go on strike. There must be something radically wrong for anything like that to occur. The Minister went on to point to the steps taken by the Government when they had taken over the agricultural colleges. He had considered it best, at the time, to appoint the most capable man as second Assistant Secretary for Agriculture, whose work would not be of an administrative nature, but who would simply go round and inspect the various colleges and experimental stations. Mr. Holm, who had made a great success of the Potchefstroom experimental farm, had consequently been appointed, and he thought that in this gentleman they had a man of considerable ability, who, no doubt, would lead matters in the right direction as he was well acquainted with the needs of agricultural schools. He had been for years in the school at Potchefstroom, and those who were acquainted with that school would agree that what he had performed there in eight years made a record in agricultural matters in South Africa. Did not the leader of the Opposition think he would do more evil than good by bringing up this question again? As regarded the proposal that a Select Committee should be appointed to go into this question of the strike, he thought that such a committee could not have any but evil effects, it certainly would not improve the disclipine. So many commissions and committees had already been appointed in connection with this Eisenberg College that he feared parents would not send their children there again if they went on appointing committee’s. As soon as the Government heard of the state of affairs at Eisenberg, they instituted a departmental inquiry, and if the hon. member for Fort Beaufort had asked for the papers the Government would not have offered the slightest objection. He would not oppose the appointment of a Select Committee, though he feared it would do little good. They expected the heads of the various colleges to see that matters were improved in future. Eisenberg was the oldest agricultural school. If they looked into the history of this institution, they would see that, as it was, it had never been any too popular here in the Western Province, which he attributed to the fact that horticulture and viticulture could not be studied there—and large numbers of the people of this Province made their living out of these industries. Most students came to Eisenberg from the Eastern Province, but they would see that whereas in 1908 the institution was attended by 46 students, only 20 students attended in 1913. This he attributed to the fact that since the Middelburg institution had been started, most of the students from, the Eastern Province had gone there. General Botha went on to refer to the arrangements which were being made for the improvement of the Elsenberg College, in order specially to be useful to the Western Province, which included the building of quarters for a married staff. In the past he pointed out there had been no quarters for married people, which had contributed greatly towards making the place unpopular. Provision had already been made for the teaching there of viticulture, horticulture, and tobacco growing—(hear, hear)—which he hoped would have beneficial effects. Those who had paid a visit to the Rosebank show would have seen the exhibit from Eisenberg which was a better one than ever before. In regard to the strike, General Botha pointed out that immediately he heard of the occurrence he had instructed Mr. Holm to make an investigation, and Mr. Holm had since made a report on the matter, from which it appeared that there did not exist that harmony among the principal and the lecturers, and among the lecturers and the students, which there should be. That could not continue, and a change became necessary. The strike arose because the principal had accused a student of being drunk. The students thought the accusation was unjust and demanded from the principal an apology. This being refused a strike occurred. Matters had since improved. The Minister proceeded to point out what steps had been taken in regard to the appointment of a new principal, stating that the contract with the old principal had been terminated. One fact to which he attributed a great deal of the trouble which had arisen was that three Ministers of Agriculture had had to deal with the institution in quick succession. General Botha expressed the hope, however, that under the new circumstances matters would show considerable improvement. In regard to Sir Edgar Walton’s amendment for an investigation into galziekte, he asked where they were going to end if they started in this way. Would they also want Select Committees to go into scab and other cattle diseases he wondered. Some remarks had been made in regard to Dr. Theiler being away on leave for a year, and that it had resulted in the loss of thousands of cattle. Well. Dr. Theiler had been extremely hard worked, and his health would have suffered very considerably, or he may have had to resign his position if he had been compelled to go on any longer. The work started by Dr. Theiler was being continued by his assistant. In Dr. Theiler they had a most eminent man. He (Dr. Theiler) had been instructed to try and get a good assistant to come to this country to help him in his work, and they sincerely hoped he would succeed, though he, had not done so yet. As regarded the question of botany, General Botha pointed out that the botanist was still engaged in investigating the question of poisonous plants and herbs. He (General Botha) did not think the remark that the Department of Agriculture had gone backwards a worthy or a deserving one, and he held that the Department was progressing as well, as they could wish under a number of highly capable officials. The young South Africans who had gone to other countries to study would be home soon, and he hoped that they would increase the Department’s efficiency. In the circumstances he hoped the motion would be withdrawn. (Hear, hear.)

said he was grateful for the Minister’s reply, because it was a fact that people had lost confidence in the Chemical section of the Department, because it was felt that matters were not managed as they ought to be. Officials were playing the baas over scientific experts. The matter of chemical research was an important one, and not merely one of £ s. d., but would have a great influence on the future, that they must seriously consider it, and there was no doubt that there was a feeling abroad that there was something wrong. He welcomed the motion therefore, though he did not agree with the hon. member in the matter of Eisenberg, and he felt that the time had come when an investigation must be made in regard to chemical research. He could not now in a few words express his feelings, but he hoped that something would be done, so that their feelings of anxiety should be set at rest. The Minister of Finance might consider it a financial matter, but if a committee were appointed other information might be obtained which would be of great value, and shed more light on the matter. What they wanted was that when all these analyses were made they should be sent to a central establishment, and compared with one another, and so forth, so that they could see what had been accomplished. He thought that the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir T. W. Smartt) was not so wedded to the second part of his motion as to the first, and whatever happened to the first part, he hoped that the latter part would not be carried. The present system did not appear to be a good one; and a committee of inquiry must, therefore, do a good deal of good.

said that with regard to Eisenberg, he could speak with some personal knowledge. Some time ago he had the pleasure of visiting that place with a friend who intended to put one of his boys there, and he thought it a good opportunity of seeing how the place was getting on. All he could say was, that, speaking as a South African, he felt positively ashamed at what he saw; the place was untidy, practically there was little or no discipline among the students, and they were all grumbling at the manner in which they had been treated. He also went into the living rooms, and was also ashamed of their condition. Continuing, the hon. member said that there had been so many changes in the heads of departments that there had been practically no control. First, they had had the Minister of Education, then they had had the Minister of the Interior, and now the Minister of Agriculture in charge of Eisenberg. Those of them who belonged to the Cape took a certain pride in Eisenberg, and wanted to see it succeed and prosper. He had also, visited the Agricultural College at Potchefstroom, and there he saw something to be proud of. What the Prime Minister had told them was that possibly the present condition of Eisenberg was due to other agricultural colleges being established, and that therefore there must be a natural decline at Eisenberg. If that were so it was all the more reason for having a Select Committee appointed to inquire into the condition at Elsenberg, and if it were found to be unnecessary, then close it down. Under the present conditions, it was no credit to the department. Even within the last few days there had been great dissatisfaction amongst the students at the College with regard to the position at the present time. Yet they were told by the Prime Minister that there had been no interference by the Agricultural Department with the school. Why, then, did not he agree to the appointment of a Select Committee? There was a feeling that the Government was not paying the attention to Eisenberg that was being paid to other places. He hoped the discussion would lead to more attention being paid to the matter.

said he was very much disappointed when he heard the Prime Minister say that he was not prepared to accept the appointment of this committee. One would have thought that the Prime Minister would have been anxious to go into the matter, so as to decide as to whether these reports were true or not. He (Mr. Wessels) thought that the hon. member for Fort Beaufort had made out a really good case for the desirability of appointing a Select Committee to go into the matter. What he (Mr. Wessels) felt now was that, by bringing these chemical laboratories under one control, they were going to effect a considerable economy; that point ought certainly to weigh with the House. It was a question of whether or not the country was getting the full benefit of the large expenditure on these chemical laboratories. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth had drawn attention to a most important matter when he raised the question of gal-lamziekte. He (Mr. Wessels) had referred to it in previous sessions. It was destroying thousands of cattle every season. They were getting reports every week from all parts of the Union, and if nothing was done to check the disease, cattle farming was going to be a thing of the past. There was a very strong feeling in the country that the Agricultural Department was not doing in that matter what it ought to do. Last session they were urged to get from Europe two of the best specialists that money could get, but practically nothing was being done. The Government ought to try and set the minds of the farmers at rest, for whether rightly or wrongly, there was an impression that this matter was not getting the attention it deserved. It would be a good thing if this Select Committee would find out what was being done with regard to that particular disease. Stock owners were even willing to agree to a special tax, in order to find out some remedy. For these reasons, he begged to support the motion.

said he was astonished at the attitude of the Government in not agreeing to the motion to appoint a Select Committee. The principals of the college had not a sufficiently free hand, and were too much in the position of chief officials. In his opinion, a Select Committee would do much good, not only to Eisenberg, but to other colleges in South Africa. An open inquiry Would give the public more confidence; but if the Government were afraid of an inquiry, then the farmers and others would feel afraid to send their sons to these institutions.

said it was feared by the public that now that Dr. Theiler was away the same attention was not devoted to gal-lamziekte as when he was there, and there was no doubt that the disease was spreading. It had spread from Boshof to Kroonstad, and had crossed the Vaal to Standerton. The head of the department appeared to give very little attention to the disease. It was a serious position which faced them, and they were under the impression that that attention was not devoted to that important matter which it deserved. Values of farms in the North, were going down as a result of the spread of the disease. He hoped that steps would be taken to combat it. He hoped such a committee as that proposed would be appointed.

who was almost inaudible, said the motion dealt with two matters which differed from each other in toto. He would certainly not vote for an inquiry at Eisenberg, as it was one of those delicate family matters which ought to be settled at home. To order an inquiry into Eisenberg was tantamount to a vote of no confidence in the Government. It was easy to ask for the papers if they wanted to see how matters stood, or they could get the information in other ways. What would be said if they appointed a Select Committee on a school, and what would its effect on discipline be? With regard to what the hon. member for Yeoville (Sir L. Phillips) had said, the speaker asked what would be better than to have a National University which could go in for research work and be of great value to the country in regard to chemical research work. It could deal with farming and cattle breeding, as well as with unknown human sicknesses, and would be much more valuable than an University for higher education at Groote Schuur. He believed that a Select Committee would do much good but as a second inquiry was superfluous, he would have to vote against the motion.

was understood to say that he regretted that, the Minister had given the reply he had done, and not accepted the motion. The Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister had said that, in regard to the first-portion of the motion, there was a difference of opinion as to the separate control of these laboratories. If there was such a difference of opinion, would it not be wise to allow a Select Committee to investigate the whole matter? They wished to get the greatest benefit from these laboratories, and they could only do, so by the closest investigation. He believed in having these laboratories under one technical head as a branch of the Agricultural Department. With regard to the second part of the motion, he was glad to hear from the Prime Minister that a better state of affairs now prevailed; but he knew of two instances in which parents had taken their sons away from Eisenberg College, and another case where a parent decided to send his son there, but gave up the idea on hearing some of the talk that had been going on about the institution. He thought that a Select Committee would do a great deal of good. He thought that the investigation by a Select Committee would result in the public being reassured. If that object were gained then it would be worth while.

said he hoped that the Select Committee would be composed of men who knew the work that they would be called upon to criticise. If there was anything in this world, a competent man objected to it was a meddler; a man who made all sorts of inquiries and all sorts of criticisms on things he knew nothing about.

Hear, hear.

said he did not know much about Eisenberg, hut if all its work was on a level with the work done in regard to poultry, then it was very valuable indeed. The hon. member for Bechuanaland referred to certain diseases; the evidence of the scientific world was that so long as they proceeded along the same lines they had in the last 30 years, not only would they not reduce the amount of disease, but they would increase it. It was a matter of such importance to this country, and was costing the country so much, that he thought it was time they should endeavour to understand it. To his mind the question in regard to Eisenberg was not whether what was called “ economy ” was practised or not. The real question was whether the college was conducted with efficiency; whether each department was doing its work as well as it could be done, and efficiently from the standpoint of the part of the country for which it was working. With regard to this, he saw that in some instances well-planned efforts had been completely defeated by men who were good critics, but that was all they were. There was so much interference, and so much ignorant meddling, and if the Prime Minister consented to the appointment of a committee he should see that it was composed of the best men. Under the present state of their knowledge, however, he hoped the Prime Minister would hold his hand until they had time to go into the matter. The assumption was that most of these diseases were caused by some specific germ, that, however, was being repudiated at the present moment. The germ theory of disease was without substantial root. If the basis upon which they were proceeding was wrong, were they likely to reach any remarkable success? The hon. member quoted from Sir William Ostler, to the effect that these alleged germs could not be discovered in the very worst cases. Even the most eminent biologists told them that they had been going upon a wrong basis. Many years ago the tick fever was very rampant in Queensland. He had seen beasts so covered with ticks that one could hardly put a pin point between them. But the tick fever had been conquered, and they had the evidence of eminent men that the manner was precisely the same. If the department had failed, it had failed in good company. In addition to starting on the wrong basis, they had another authority, Sir Albert Wright, who had told them, in his last book, that the serum treatment was generally devoid of all rational basis. He (Mr. Haggar) had no cattle to lose, it made no difference to him whether or not all the cattle was swept out of the country, but this eminent authority told them that the serum treatment of disease was generally devoid of any rational basis, and that was the direction in which they had been and were still spending many thousands of pounds. Still, if they had failed, they had failed in very good company. They were 20 years behind the times in dealing with matters concerning human beings. Why, then, should they be farther ahead in dealing with cattle? If hon. members wanted to save their cattle, sheep, goats, and horses, they should wait until these men had shown them how to start on different lines. Then there was the question of anthrax—

It is deliberate obstruction, like last night. It is a “job.”

I do not know that the hon. member has a right to accuse me of being a party to a “job.”

addressing Mr. Speaker, asked if it was in order for an hon. member to accuse another hon. member of being a party to a “job.”

I cannot deal with an academic question; it is not a question arising out of the debate.

The hon. member for Pretoria. East, said that the hon. member for Roodepoort had taken part in a “job.”

I said it is a “job,” and so it is.

added that he would have an opportunity of saying what he thought on this question of stock diseases when the Estimates were considered.

said that for a period he had had something to do with Eisenberg and he had taken a great interest in the matter. He was sorry that the time was so short, because he apprehended that this debate would be adjourned earlier than the one last night.

We will sit on.

said he was sorry that the hon. member for Fort Beaufort had included two separate questions in one motion. In fact, it had become a regular omnibus motion. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth had used very violent language, The administration of Eisenberg was quite distinct from how they should regulate their chemical business. In regard to Eisenberg, he would like to say, in the first place, that one could not think the unsatisfactory state of things at Eisenberg had only just come into being. He was sorry to say that the condition of affairs at Eisenberg for a considerable time had been unsatisfactory. It was unsatisfactory before Union, very unsatisfactory. They had had a Select Committee. What good did that Select Committee do? None at all. They heard exactly the same arguments used the other day. He remembered that there was a strike amongst the boys at Eisenberg and some of the members of that House came down very excited and thought that the end of the world had come. If he had had his way, he would have knocked the boys’ heads together and said nothing whatever in Parliament and told them that, if they did not attend to their business, he would send them home to their fathers to give them what they deserved. The result had been that ever since there had been an undermining of authority at Elsenberg. And now it was proposed to have a Select Committee to re-assure the parents. Human nature being what it was, there would be an attempt from one quarter to get at the Government, notwithstanding the disavowals, which were perfectly honest, that they should approach this question in a non-party spirit. But whatever report the Select Committee would bring up he did not know that it would affect public opinion. It was a matter of administration. What the Government had done in the matter he (Mr. Sauer) was mainly, if not entirely, responsible for, and that was that the term of office of the person at the head of Elsenberg should be brought to an end. The affairs of the college were enquired into by Mr. Holm, of the Agricultural Department, who enquired not only into the actual “strike,” but into the causes which led to it. In his (Mr. Sauer’s) opinion, no Minister who knew his duty could have acted otherwise than did the then Minister of Agriculture. Who were they, to consider first—the children or the officials? All the world knew what was happening, people withdrew their children and would not send them any more, and he believed if no change had been made hardly any children would be there now. Were they to fight over the so-called “ rights ” or grievances of an official? He thought the object of the motion was to improve the condition of affairs, but now he heard that it was because a man got notice.

Too thin.

said Eisenberg unfortunately, except for one or two periods, had not been a success. But he was very much opposed to the idea that it should be shut up. (Hear, hear.) We must endeavour to improve it. With the information which the Government had before it, it would have been grossly neglecting its duty if it had not made certain changes. Indeed, he was inclined to think that Government did not go far enough. Government did not propose to close the establishment up, but hoped to improve it. He thought that if they could instruct young men in horticulture and viticulture, a great deal of good would have been done. He hoped that the gentleman who was now in charge, and who was eminently fitted for the task, would make a success of it. If he failed, he would share the same fate as other people; because it was not a question of individuals, but the public interest, and a question of instructing the youth of the country in these two branches of agriculture for which Eisenberg was eminently suited. What was the committee going to do? The Government had just made this great change. Was the Select Committee going to inquire into the affairs of the institution before the new principal had had a fair chance? It would not be fair to the principal, and it would not conduce to the government of the institution. He did hold that Parliament should not interfere m administrative matters, for it would weaken the authority of those, who were responsible for the administration. He had a good deal more to say on the subject, and he hoped the other side would consent to the adjournment of the debate.

seconded.

said he objected to the adjournment of the debate. Last night they sat for four hours wasting time, and he thought on this important subject they could give a little time that evening. They would agree to the adjournment if the Prime Minister would give the assurance that he would put this on the Order Paper on the following day, and allow it to be properly discussed.

said that the adjournment of the debate meant shelving the question. He knew that after certain things that had been said that afternoon the Government desired that the debate should be adjourned. If the debate were adjourned, there would be no likelihood of reaching the subject again.

Why not?

Because the Order Paper is crowded. Continuing, he said that surely the Government would allow a few hours for the discussion of this matter on a Government day? Certainly the Government should not burk the House giving an expression of its opinion. The Minister of Finance was even opposed to the first portion going to a Select Committee.

said that the hon. member must keep to the subject before the House.

said they wished to know where they were. He appealed to the Prime Minister to allow the debate to proceed that evening, or give the subject precedence on the following day.

said the circumstances were different to those of last night, when the Opposition had got up enough pluck to move what was practically a vote of no confidence. The Government should give them a little encouragement.

said that he could not understand the point of the hon. member’s observation. If the motion were carried the whole subject would be burked, for the paper was full for weeks in advance.

said the Government had so far always done its best to meet hon. members so as to enable them to discuss important matters. Why had the hon. member waited two months before bringing up this motion? It was impossible for the Government, in view of the important subjects to be dealt with, to give up another Government day to this subject.

put the question that the debate be adjourned, and declared that the “Ayes” had it.