House of Assembly: Vol14 - MONDAY FEBRUARY 3 1913
Personal petitions were referred to Select Committee.
from Anna M. Burstal, widow of T. Burstal, late policeman and lock-up keeper at Lower and Upper Paarl, who was in the Cape Civil Service for sixteen years, praying for a pension, or for other relief.
from C. Pitcher and 169 others, registered voters of the division of Caledon, Bredasdorp, and Swellendam, praying for the extension of the railway line from Kijkoedie to Swellendam, or for other relief.
from H. Cressy. B.A., Principal of the Trafalgar Second Class Public School, Cape Town, praying for the condonation of a break in his service, or for other relief.
from (1) John Andrew, accountant and chartered secretary, of Cape Town (2) the said John Andrew as representing the Central Association of Accountants (Limited by Guarantee) of London, and (3) William Hay, accountant, of Cape Town, in opposition to the Accountants’ Registration (Private) Bill.
from W. J. Higley, of Pretoria, whose period of service, amounting to nearly twenty years, was, it is alleged, continuous and pensionable under the laws of the Grange Free State, praying for an increase of pension, or for other relief.
Report of Department of Agriculture, May 31, 1910, to December 31, 1911.
said he would like to ask the Minister of Finance when he was going to give notice of the appointment of the Select Committee on Public Accounts.
said that he would give notice tomorrow.
said that the Auditor-General’s report had been promised for to-day. He would like to know if there was any further information about it.
Since then we have ascertained that the printing of the Dutch copy may take a little more time. We are hurrying on with the preparation of it as fast as possible, and the delay is unavoidable.
I think there is provision under the Act for seven days after the meeting of Parliament.
The Bill was read a first time, and set down for second reading on Friday next.
moved that Sir Thomas Smartt, Messrs. Merriman, Blaine, Baxter, Mentz, Kuhn, and the mover be members of the Select Committee on Carnarvon Outer Commonage Settlement Bill.
seconded.
said he wished to add to the committee the name of the hon. member for Georgetown. Last Friday afternoon he was anxious to address the House on the subject of this Bill, but unfortunately no opportunity was afforded for doing so. The Bill was an important one and a big question of principle was concerned. They would like to have the advantage of being able to get at the ins and outs of the matter by having a member on this committee.
said he must point out that the number of the committee was fixed on Friday last at seven.
said that as they had not been given any representative on the committee he would move that the name of the mover be omitted for the purpose of substituting the name of his hon. friend (Mr. Andrews).
Under the new rules of the House the mover of a motion must be a member of the committee. (Laughter.)
said he would take the first name on the list, and move for the deletion of the name of Sir Thomas Smartt.
seconded.
Mr. SPEAKER put the question that Sir Thomas Smartt be a member of the committee, and declared that the “Ayes” had it.
called for a division.
As fewer than ten members (viz., Messrs. Andrews, Boydell, Cresswell, Haggar, Madeley and H. W. Sampson) voted in favour of the amendment,
Mr. SPEAKER declared the amendment negatived.
The original motion was then agreed to.
The MINISTER OF NATIVE AFFAIRS moved that a Select Committee on Native Affairs be appointed, with power to take evidence and call for papers, and to consist of Sir Bisset Berry, Mr. P. G. W. Grobler, Sir Lionel Phillips, Mr. Mentz, Dr. Watkins, Messrs. Schreiner, H. S. Theron, Colonel Crewe, Messrs. Clayton, Madeley, Henwood, P. G. Marais, and the mover.
seconded.
said that this Parliament had been in existence for two years and each year a Select Committee had been appointed to investigate these matters. Notwithstanding that, however, very little had been done by these committees, and he suggested that another procedure should be followed such as that adopted in the Free State and that a Select Committee should be appointed with the right to sit during the recess and bring this matter to a solution once and for all. The question was a very important one, and unless something were done he feared they would be no further in about ten or twelve years than they were to-day. The native question would sooner or later have to be dealt with, and it would have to be dealt with on uniform lines. The problem was a burning one, especially in the Free State, and they wanted the present state of affairs put an end to. (Hear, hear.) On the Cape-Free State border they had had many difficulties as a result of the diverse methods of treating natives.
†The MINISTER OF RAILWAYS AND HARBOURS denied the hon. member’s statement that no report had been presented. Last session the committee had reported on many important matters, which had been referred to it, and during the first sitting of Parliament there had also been a very important report dealing with the squatting of natives. On that report the Bill which had been published last year was based.
“Yes, and on the Grobler report.”
said he knew nothing about the Grobler report. As to the solution of the native question, he could only say that important steps had been taken last year, and during last session the Select Committee had dealt with the purchase and possession of ground by natives. It appeared to him that the hon. member’s speech showed him to be little acquainted with the work of the Committee-That question could not be solved in one or two days and it would be disastrous to bring a Bill before the House in a hurry, a Bill which might work badly and make matters even worse. (Hear, hear.) The charges which had been made by the hon. member were baseless.
said, he could not help feeling that this matter was taking somewhat too long, though he acknowledged that the Select Committees during the last few years had done good work. An important measure had been introduced last year to put an end to the detrimental system of squatting, and he did not see why they should have to keep on waiting any longer now. Why was the Bill not carried through? The Minister of Native Affairs a few days ago had given an evasive reply to the question when this matter was going to be dealt with, and the public were dissatisfied. There was too much delay, and before voting for the appointment of this Select Committee he would like to know whether the Minister would now give a more encouraging reply. The public were waiting for it. The Transvaal as well as the Free State were waiting, and something must be done to stop “Kafir farming.” (Hear, hear.)
said the committee which sat the session before last took a great deal of evidence on squatting, but the report was never before the House, as it was presented only at the end of the session. Last session the committee discussed the question of the possibility of having uniformity of taxation of natives, and an immense amount of evidence was taken. He did not suppose that any committee worked harder than that one did. The difficulty that prevented the report being submitted was due to the character of the matter to be considered, and the peculiar nature of the committee, which was appointed to consider a question which was really a Governmental question. (Hear, hear.) It was not the duty of a Select Committee to indicate what the policy of the Government ought to be. The members of the committee were not to blame for there being no definite report.
asked in what position would the new committee stand in reference to the evidence taken by the previous committee, which evidence was not printed?
Mr. SPEAKER stated that hon. members were entitled to the evidence.
expressed his disappointment, and the disappointment of his constituents, that last year’s Bill had not been put into effect. It had, he said, been received with satisfaction all over the country. He feared that the Minister of Native Affairs thought that the matter was of too little importance. His evasive answer to a question gave that appearance. Well, the country was waiting for a solution of this important matter, and hoped this question would be tackled early this session, and not be shelved. (Hear, hear.)
said that if one looked well into the question, one must come to the conclusion that after three years seeking for a solution, no solution had been found. From the answer made by the Minister of Native Affairs it even appeared that nothing had been done. They were here as representatives of the country, and it was their duty to tackle this question. Both sides of the House, he urged, should co-operate to bring in a good and workable measure as soon as possible. Were they going to wait until it was too late? Natives were buying ground everywhere. At present they saw that if a white man had a native as his neighbour, the condition of affairs often became so unbearable for the white man that he was forced to sell his land to a native and clear out himself. A Bill should be brought in and passed during the present session on behalf of the welfare of the whole com-country.
The motion was agreed to.
on a point of order, drew attention to the following: (i) Section eighty-five of the South Africa Act, 1909, provides that Provincial Councils may make ordinances in relation to matters coming within the following (inter alia) classes, of subjects, viz.: Municipal institutions, Divisional Councils and other local institutions of a similar nature; (ii) section ninety-one of the same Act provides that such an ordinance shall have the force of law within the province; (iii) section twenty-three of the Municipal Corporations Amendment Ordinance, 1911 (Natal), provides that town councils shall have power to tax, by way of annual licence, certain trades and callings, including those of a wholesale and retail dealer, and to receive and pay into the Borough Fund the sums accruing from such licences; and (iv) clause thirteen (1) of the Financial Relations Bill now before the House provides that in the Province of Natal the revenue derived from licences to carry on the business of wholesale dealer shall be paid to the Provincial Revenue Fund, and asked Mr. Speaker’s ruling as to whether, in view of the provisions referred to of sections eighty-five and ninety-one of the South Africa Act, 1909, it is competent for Parliament to override and repeal by implication an Ordinance of a Provincial Council on a matter relating to municipal institutions ?
This question could better be raised when the clause referred to in the Financial Relations Bill is reached in the committee stage. I may, however, now point out that in my opinion Parliament has the power to consider the proposed provisions. A fuller ruling will be given at a later date.
*The MINISTER OF FINANCE, in moving the second reading of the Financial Relations Bill, said when this Bill was last before the House last session it was substantially in the same form as it was at present. Although the Bill was then considered urgent, owing to the lateness of the session when the Bill was introduced and owing to the importance and complexity of the subject, the Government did not at that time proceed with the Bill. Now the Bill had become extremely urgent. He had been very strongly pressed over and over again by the Provincial Administrations to get the Bill passed, and they had a petition from the Provincial Council of the Cape asking when they were to have a definition of the financial relations. The subject was very urgent, and the Government, in view of that fact, had based their estimates for the current year upon the assumption that this Bill was going to pass. The financial basis of the Provinces had not been framed as hitherto, but upon a new basis. He had made that statement to show hon. members that the matter they were now dealing with was very urgent, but, of course, that would not prevent the House from giving it its fullest consideration. (Cheers.) The subject had engaged the attention of the National Convention at the time when the scheme of Union was framed, and it was very strongly felt that further inquiry was necessary before definite arrangements were come to on that subject. The Governor-General was empowered to appoint a Commission, consisting of representatives of the Provinces and a chairman in the Imperial service, and the object was to institute an inquiry into the financial relations. It was felt that the facts were so complicated that it was absolutely necessary to hold this inquiry. The House would remember that in connection with the first Union Parliament in 1910, a debate was raised upon the matter by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mt. J. W. Jagger).
The hon. member moved that the Commission should be appointed without any further delay, and there was an argument upon that motion, and it was felt that there were certain very large and important questions to be considered. The result of that Commission was two reports, the Majority Report being signed by the representatives from the Transvaal and the Cape, and the Minority Report consisting of the opinions of the representatives of the Orange Free State and Natal. During last session they called together the Administrators from the various Provinces, and a conference was held in Cape Town touching upon these reports. An endeavour was made to come to some arrangement whereby it would be possible to put legislation through the House with the consent of all the Provinces. With regard to the report of the Commission, they felt very strongly what had been often expressed in that House, that it was necessary, without much further delay, to give the Provinces financial responsibility in place of the system that had been in vogue since Union. Year after year the expenditure in the various Provinces had been rising by leaps and bounds, and it was practically impossible for the Union Parliament to criticise matters effectively which they were not called upon to administer. For instance, the Union Parliament put down a large sum for education, but the Union Government did not administer the service of education, and so was not in a position to say what amounts were necessary. That process would continue until the Provinces were responsible for their own finances.
The Commission explained that in the first place certain sources of revenue should be transferred wholly and entirely to the Provinces, and, secondly, that certain other sources of revenue, although not transferred to the Provincial Administration so as to be placed in the legislative power of the Provincial Councils, yet should be assigned to them. He did not think it necessary to go into great detail in regard to these recommendations, which would be found, with some additions, embodied in the Bill in the first schedule. They included school fees, hospital fees, and licence duties. In reference to licence duties, it was pointed out that these duties fell into three classes. There were certain licences which were applicable to the whole of the Union. Then there were a number of licences clearly of a municipal character, and which should not on that ground be transferred to the Provincial Administration. The balance were the licences which were not strictly urban, nor did they apply generally to the Union, and these, it was proposed, should be transferred to the Provinces. It was also proposed that transfer duties should be transferred to the Provinces. In schedule 1 of the Bill it would be found that these recommendations were carried out. He had omitted to mention the case of the pass fees payable in the labour area of the Transvaal by white employers of natives. The Majority Report recommended that only one half of these fees should be transferred to the Provincial Administration. Native affairs were specially retained to the Union Administration under the terms of the South Africa Act, and the result would have been that, if these fees had been divided between the Union Government and the Transvaal Provincial Council, seeing that it was proposed that the Union Government’s share should be partly used for native education, the white employers of the Transvaal would be contributing towards native education in South Africa. The employers’ pass fees payable in the labour areas of the Transvaal were not transferred to the Provincial Administration, but part of the proceeds of this tax was proposed to be assigned to the Transvaal Province, so that the Transvaal Province would not have the right of legislation in regard to this tax.
If these recommendations were taken together and their financial effect on the position of the Provinces were looked into, it would be found that upon the report of the Government Commission the Cape Province would have a surplus of £194,000, Natal a deficit of £52,000, the Transvaal a deficit of £142,000, and the O.F.S. a deficit of £14,000. At the Conference between the Government and the Provincial Administrations it was urged by the representatives of the smaller provinces that it was quite inexpedient for them in the first year of their financial control or immediately after Union to go to their provinces and submit to them fresh taxation, and that contention was borne out by the recommendation made in the Minority Report, as would be seen on page 56 of the Blue Book. The minority of this Commission proposed a different scheme to that existing in the provinces, but solely with the view of preventing any fresh taxation being immediately levied by these provinces. The whole position was gone into by the Conference, and the solution found was that as regarded the Transvaal the employers’ pass fees should not be assigned to the extent of one half only, but that the whole of the proceeds of that tax should be assigned to the Transvaal Province, with the result that the deficit of £142,000 would be converted into a surplus of £3,000. In regard to the two smaller provinces, it was found impossible to assign or transfer to those provinces any sources of taxation existing in those provinces which would meet the case and convert their deficit into a surplus at the initiation of the scheme. Additional subsidies, in the case of Natal of £90,000, and the Free State of £67,000, were found to be the only possible solution if the representatives of those provinces were not to go back and call for fresh taxation. The effect would be that the Natal deficit of £52,000 would be wiped out and converted into a surplus of £2,000, and the Free State deficit of £14,000 would be converted into a surplus of £19,000, which would enable that Province also to deal with the somewhat pressing question of transfer duty. The expenditure of the Provinces has meantime mounted up, and on the basis of the 1913-14 Estimates the Cape would have a surplus of £130,000, while the Transvaal would have a deficit of £22,000, and there would also be a small deficit in Natal. The Financial Relations Commission had recommended a tax on fixed property in the three northern Provinces, but he was sure that would have been very difficult to pass immediately after Union, and in any case the scheme would have had to be forced through the House. The Provincial requirements were increasing very rapidly, especially in the matter of education. In the Cape alone the increased requirements for elementary education were almost incredible. The result would be that it would be necessary for the Provincial Councils to organise some system under which their local requirements would be assisted by local taxation.
Some people said that the Provincial Council system as it stood in the South Africa Act was of an experimental character. It was only the institution of the Provincial system which enabled the National Convention to secure the consent of the smaller Colonies to Union. (Hear, hear.) The Provincial Council system was essential to Union, but it was not a very ideal system. It had been argued that the effect of the provisions contained in the Bill would be to stereotype the system, and to give it a new lease of life, and that in that way what was intended to be merely an experiment would become a permanent institution. In regard to that he was not going to say that the provinces were not a great success so far. He had not had sufficient time to see how the system would work. There was a strong fear in some quarters that some of the Provinces were too large and that some of the Councils and Administrations were too ambitious, and that they had become little Parliaments. (Hear, hear.) But the provincial system, whatever its faults, had not had a sufficient trial— (hear, hear)—to enable us to pronounce finally on its merits or demerits. The country could not pronounce on it until the step Parliament was now taking had been consummated, and until it had been seen how the Provinces would respond to the new call. The Provincial Councils had had no chance, and he defied anybody to prove that the most ideal institution in the world could work satisfactorily under the conditions which had existed in the past in regard to the Provinces. The Provinces should be given a chance, and on the generous basis proposed in the Bill they should become responsible for their own finances. If they were extravagant and they taxed their constituents, the punishment would he inevitable, and the result would he that a cry would go up for their abolition. That surely was contemplated under the Constitution. It was quite possible that some of the Provinces were too large. Some members of the Convention strongly held that the Cape and the Transvaal were too large for local government, and a proposal was made to cut the Transvaal into two and the Cape into three. But these far-reaching measures were impossible in these early days, and it was only after we had found our feet in the working of these novel institutions that we should be able to make up our minds into how many Provinces it would be necessary to cut up the Transvaal and the Cape. The only step we could take to-day was to fix the amount of the financial responsibility. He asked the House not to quibble over small matters nor over the additional subsidy for the two smaller Provinces.
Another objection that had been urged was that before we came to this definite settlement we should take a further step in regard to the equalisation of taxation. Some said, “Look at the inequality of licences.” It was pointed out that in the Cape about half-a-million was raised by local taxation, and it was alleged that in the other Provinces there was nothing corresponding to this taxation. People said, “Before you stereotype this state of affairs, first equalise taxation, and don’t leave a burning sense of injustice.” (Hear, hear.) That “Hear, hear,” was spoken from the heart, but if we were going to wait with our scheme until taxation had been adjusted on an equal footing all over the Union we should have to wait until the Greek Kalends. (An HON. MEMBER. “Why?”) Take the case of Ireland.
A very unhappy case.
There has been union between Great Britain and Ireland for more than 100 years, and if their taxation is compared there will be found the greatest inequality—far greater than exists here—and it has been found impossible to remedy that. It will not be possible for many years to remedy the South African inequalities. Proceeding, General Smuts said that in the Transvaal, if a farm contained gold, the Government took away from its owner 80 per cent. Would hon. members for the other Provinces like to level up in this way? (Cheers.) If a diamond mine were discovered in the Transvaal the Government would take 60 per cent. (Cheers.) He could spend the afternoon enumerating these inequalities. It was quite wrong to argue that there was no local taxation in the other Provinces apart from the Cape. In the Cape there was paid by way of local taxation in connection with schools and Divisional Councils, £370,000 or £380,000. The same local burden rested on the people of the Transvaal, where the employers’ pass fees produced £374,000. The incidence of this local taxation is different in the Provinces. It was proposed that they should first equalise this taxation before they came to deal with the financial relations, but he would ask hon. members how they were going to equalise this taxation? They could extend, for instance, the system of school fees to the Transvaal, or they could extend the employers’ pass tax of the Transvaal to the Cape, but equalisation of taxation was not possible. They could not extend the employers’ pass tax to the Cape and the other Provinces, because these other Provinces simply would not have it, and on the other hand they could not extend the Divisional Council’s rates and the school fees of the Cape to the other Provinces. Proceeding, the Hon. Minister said he believed in equality, but it could only be introduced in the course of time.
If there was to be a system of local taxation he did not say a word against this, but it was not this Parliament that had to deal with that, it was the Provincial Councils. He was sorry that there had been, so much objection from hon. members, because in a way this (night be called the Cape Province Relief Bill. (Loud laughter.) There was no question that since Union the Cape Province had been unfairly treated, because they had received no consideration whatever for the amount of local taxation raised.
Whose fault was that?
It was nobody’s fault. What they were doing, therefore, was to look upon all taxation from whatever source arising as accruing to the central Treasury. Take all the revenue upon that basis and look at it as if it had come into the Union Treasury, and give credit to each Province as a financial Union matter. For every penny of the money credited to the Union Treasury there would be an equal payment to the Provinces. Last year the Cape received from the Union £879,000. Next year it was proposed to hand over £1,256,000, roughly speaking an increase of £380,000. In the other Provinces, the position would be very much as it was before. They had dealt, so far, with the normal expenditure, but there remained the question of non-normal expenditure; and it was laid down in the South Africa Act that a Provincial Council could borrow money with the consent of the Governor-General and in accordance with regulations to be framed by Parliament. It was feared that a Provincial Council might go into the market and borrow large sums of money at perhaps a high rate, and therefore the burden might be very heavy indeed, and so it was thought that these arrangements should be made so that the Provincial Council could only borrow money with the consent of the Governor-General and Parliament. The Commission felt that the Councils should come to the Central Treasury, and the Treasury should borrow the money for them. In future it would thus be possible for them to get their money at the cheapest rate, and all their reasonable demands met by the Union Treasury. With respect to the school buildings in three of the Provinces, these have been erected by giants from the Union Treasury, while in the Cape Province loans were made to the various authorities. There was one other matter that was a question, not of financial relations, but of the further powers that would devolve upon the Provincial Council. That subject had been dealt with to the best of their ability. The Administrator of Natal, after the prolonged consideration which he and his committee had been able to give to the matter, had really offered no pertinent suggestion. The Administrator of the Transvaal replied that there were a number of subjects, which he enumerated, and which might be dealt with by the Provinces. He suggested that irrigation might be delegated to the Provinces, but this was too large a subject for the Provinces. Then, as to lunatic asylums, it was not proposed to delegate these to the Provinces, for the simple reason that effective administration required that provincial limits should be exceeded in this matter. There was this to be taken into consideration, that both irrigation and asylums were very expensive services. As to public libraries and museums, these they were carrying out. In regard to experimental farms and similar institutions, experimental farms could not be delegated to the Provinces, for the reason that they were so inextricably bound up with the existing Agricultural Colleges. The suggestion had been adopted in another form, however, and experiments in certain forms of agricultural activities were to be dealt with by the Provinces. Afforestation had not been accepted also on the ground of the very great burden that would be thrown on the Provinces for them to undertake this service. The O.F.S. Administrator said that the desire of his Council had been, not so much for more powers, as for some powers. So far as this suggestion went, it was entirely dependent on the provisions of this Bill. They could not come to any closer definition of the powers of provincial bodies than by giving them financial responsibility. The Commission, in dealing with this question, made certain very wise remarks, which would be found on page 9. They were largely in favour of the Cape Divisional Council system of administration, but they said that time would be required for such a change to be consummated, and that, so long as Provincial Councils were on an experimental basis, it would not be wise to enlarge their powers too much. In regard to agriculture, they said they only suggested that on the Provinces should be conferred the experimental cultivation of agricultural products peculiar to each particular Province. This recommendation of the Commission was embodied in the schedule to the Bill.
A point had been raised in regard to museums and libraries, and the question was: could a case not be made out in regard to the museum and library here in Cape Town and the similar institutions in Pretoria, for keeping them central national institutions? If there were a feeling in this House in favour of that, then it was only necessary in the schedule to limit the delegation of libraries and museums by excluding these particular institutions. The Government would certainly not offer any opposition, but would welcome an amendment to that effect. Lunatic and leper asylums, the Commission proposed, should be delegated to the Provinces as being largely of the character of hospitals. That, he had explained, would cast an enormous burden of expenditure on the Provinces. If hon. members turned to schedule 2, they would find the powers which it was proposed to confer immediately on the Provinces, if they so desired. It was quite possible that the Provinces might say that these services were too expensive and they could not run them. It was possible to enlarge this list, but he would advise Parliament to go slowly and only to enlarge these powers if it were found that the Provincial Councils were successful institutions in the administration of provincial government. He begged to move the second reading of this Bill. (Cheers.)
said he did not know whether the Minister wished to proceed with the debate on the second reading of this Bill, because there were other figures that the House had not yet got. They had got no details with regard to the estimates of expenditure of the Provincial Councils. In his opinion, the House was not in possession of all the facts which it should have. If the Minister would accept a motion for the adjournment of the debate, he would move it.
said they should go on with the debate.
(proceeding) said he thought the House would have some sympathy with the Minister in introducing what he confessed to be the rather crude proposals contained in that Bill. (Hear, hear.) He had alluded once or twice during his speech to a Conference, but they had no report of that Conference before the House. (Hear, hear.) In fact, there seemed to be some information which Ministers had, but which the House had not got. This was a Bill that laid down the principle upon which Provincial Councils were to be maintained and upon which they were to be financed for all time. It would be impossible for the Minister, if the House passed this Bill, to amend it next year or the year after. The Minister had told them that there was-great urgency for this Bill, but the fact remained that it was only laid before the country on the very eve of the meeting of Parliament. Members had come down to that House without an opportunity of ascertaining what were their constituents’ views on this important measure, a measure-which ought certainly to be considered by the country.
He agreed largely with what the Minister had said as to the history of the matter, but not entirely, because the Minister had said that the Provincial Councils were embodied in the Act, because of some demand from the colony of Natal for something approaching a local parliament.
No, the smaller Colonies.
continuing, said it was quite true that there was on the part of all the Colonies a feeling that the right of the people to look after their own local affairs should be protected, but the Provincial Councils were the result of discussion and consideration by the National Convention, and it was the solution they bad of the difficulty of providing a workable scheme of local government. The scheme in the South Africa Act gave the Central Parliament the duty of providing the funds for the carrying on of local self-government. It was also true that the National Convention, when considering how these funds should be provided for the Provincial Councils, suggested the appointment of a Commission. They put before this Commission a definite mission, or rather they asked them to do two things—in the first place, to discover some equitable means of providing funds for the carrying out of local self-government, some means that would be fair to the whole of the. Provinces of the Union, and, in the second place, to make such suggestions as would, if possible, extend the principle of local self-government in South Africa. (Hear, hear.) He was afraid that, in its report, the Commission fulfilled neither of these duties. The report of the Commission, and the Bill which had now been introduced, actually blocked the way of the progress and extension of local self-government.
The question of a fair system of raising and distributing money among the Provinces had been shirked by the Commission. This report was based on the unsound principle that they should provide money for the Provinces on the basis of their expenditure. Practically he said to them, “The more you spend the more we give you.”
The good old Cape principle— pound for pound.
It is not a Cape principle, but was recognised under exceptional circumstances, and there are many public works which we should never have got but for that principle, but never did the Cape Divisional Councils get pound for pound on the whole of their expenditure. Continuing, Sir Edgar said that the Minister of Finance did not take the one safe guard offered him in the report which in section 39 said if it were thought desirable to prevent any inconvenient increase in the demands of the Provincial Councils there would be no objection to the amount of the Union subsidy not being increased more than 5 per cent, per annum for the first five years. But there was no word of that limit in the Bill. The ideal of the National Convention was that we should establish in South Africa a system which would encourage local self-government and provincial financial responsibility. There was no financial responsibility for the Provincial Councils under this Bill, for they did not raise a penny, and therefore we lost the only check on extravagance that we had. If the Provincial Council had to levy taxes in case they exceeded their expenditure the taxpayers would see that no extravagance took place, which would necessitate provincial taxes. The Union actually encouraged the Provinces to be thriftless and extravagant. Suppose they had extra expenditure in the Transvaal or the Cape, it would be perfectly reasonable for those two Provinces to ask for equal treatment to that accorded to Natal and the Free State.
The doles given to the latter were unfair, and the system itself was unsound. If they had any fixed principle that would have worked perfectly automatically there would have been no necessity to resort to what had been resorted to in the Bill. The conditions in the different Provinces differed, and a capitation grant in the Cape might reasonably have been smaller than a capitation grant for the Transvaal. The basis of taxation was unfair to the poor or prudent Province, as it taxed the economic Province for the advantage of the well-to-do and extravagant Province. It was specially unfair in the case of the Cape, where there had been severe retrenchment since 1904, the expenditure being reduced by something like four millions a year. That meant cheeseparing in every possible direction. The light hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) went on for two years putting on the screw still further.
You are not the only Province which has had to retrench.
I would like the hon. member to study the attitude which was taken up just prior to Union by the Cape Government and his own Government in Natal. (Hear, hear.) There was a difference in the attitude of the two Provinces. The right hon. member for Victoria West Mr. Merriman), who was then Prime Minister of the Cape, said he was determined that the Cape should enter Union as a solvent Province.
So did Natal.
I did not think Natal was quite so Spartan. Continuing, Sir Edgar said the taking of the expenditure as the basis of the grant was unfair, especially to the Cape, which had retrenched right down to the bone. (Hear, hear.) The Cape therefore received less than the other Provinces because owing to retrenchment its expenditure was less. The Financial Relations Commission occasionally had some pricks of conscience, and laid down sound doctrines, but then they suggested something quite different, and the Government in the Bill had carefully avoided following anything financially sound in the Commission’s report. It was in the minds of the whole of the members of the National Convention that rates would be essential for the Provincial Councils, and it would have been better if Government had made a sacrifice in order to get that principle adopted. He thought there was something in the contention of Natal and the Free State that they should not pay additional taxation on entering Union. In the Cape there was a land tax which went to the Divisional Councils. Proceeding, Sir Edgar said he would like to ask the hon. Minister how he arrived at his figures. He proposed giving the Free State £67,000 and Natal £90,000. Why? Where did he get his figures? There had never been before the House a single figure to show justification for voting those sums, and the hon. Minister did not in his speech attempt in any way to explain. A curious thing about the doles was there was no provision in the Bill for doing away with them. It was not proposed to reduce them year after year, but they were to be retained year after year at a certain level and then at the end of ten years practically to be dropped off. The people of the Free State and Natal were entitled to know what their position would be. There should be some well thought out scheme such as was being worked in other countries and was proving satisfactory. (An HON. MEMBER: “Not one.”) Well, he would put it this way; that there was not a single case where it was so unsatisfactory as it was here. (Hear, hear.) The Bill made no effort to put the matter on a sound basis. With regard to school buildings, he understood that in the Transvaal these were all provided by the Central Government. Every Cape school committee had to pay for its own school buildings, and it was rather hard upon that particular portion of the community that they should be called upon to pay these sums, although they had forty years in which to pay them. Sir Edgar argued that proposals should be made to enable the people to extend the principle of local self-government, and quoted the Commission’s report in support of his contention. They realised, he said, the advisability of extending the principle of self-government in the country beyond the provision made in the South Africa Act. In emphasising that the report stated that “the Cape system must either be extended to the other Provinces or be abolished altogether.” They did realise the importance of the extension of the principle and they left the door open by recommending the rating system, which was really the Cape system, to the other Provinces. But the Act threw aside that proposal altogether; it made no provisions upon it, and the position it left the country in was, that if the people wished to extend the principle of self-government they must do it by rating themselves. They were never going to get an extension of the Cape system to the other parts of South Africa under that Bill, and if they did not get that extension there was nothing more certain than that the people of the Cape were not going to continue their own system. It was not right they should be called upon to pay special rates and special taxes which were not paid in other parts of the Union, and if they tried to continue making the Cape people pay these rates and taxes they were going to have the Divisional Council abolished, and the Cape put on the same basis as the other Provinces. They could not compel the Cape people to continue paying these rates. It would give rise to discontent with the Provincial Council and to the feeling that it was no good. If the Cape people found they were paying for benefits which the rest of South Africa were getting for nothing they would want it abolished. They would be supported by the Transvaal, and the provincial spirit would be crystallised in the worst possible form. They would have certain Provinces binding themselves together and coming to Parliament year after year with certain demands for money. That was the position they were being driven to. In conclusion. Sir Edgar said the hon. Minister would not facilitate the passage of the measure by withholding information. He would have liked to have been able to have studied the figures and formed some data upon which they could be treated. He hoped it would lead to further discussion, and he thought the House should insist upon the examination of the basis and the details upon which the Bill was built, by a Select Committee of the House. He hesitated to move that such a committee should be appointed, but there should be something which would not lead to future trouble. As matters stood there would be nothing but financial trouble before them year after year.
complained of the lack of necessary figures and information. He moved that the debate be adjourned.
seconded.
said he would like to appeal to the Minister to agree to the adjournment of the debate. This was a matter of vital importance. He had moved for a return which the Minister of Education said was necessary for the proper understanding of this Bill. So far, he had not got that return, which his hon. friend had stated was essential. When they realised the seriousness of the questions involved in this Bill, they could not continue this debate unless they had these figures in their possession. They all wanted this Bill to pass, and therefore he trusted that the House would agree to the motion for the adjournment of the debate.
said the position was this: no demand for any specific figures had been made, except certain items of expenditure. They could not waste a large part of the afternoon because some hon. member wanted information that he was unable to give.
said the hon. Minister must not say that people wanted to wreck this Bill because they simply wanted information. That was not the way to treat Parliament. Here they had a most complicated measure before them, and various votes had been mixed up; and, in fact, he did not believe that any Parliament had hitherto been asked to vote upon such a measure without the necessary information. This was a very vital matter. They had listened to a very long and very interesting, but not no clear a statement as his hon. friend usually gave the House. He thought they might very well now adjourn, so that they might have time to consider this question. The measure itself was an honest attempt to solve a very difficult question. They might have differences of opinion upon it, but they were honest differences.
The debate was adjourned until Wednesday.
The House adjourned at