Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister deserves full credit for having removed discrimination from education planning. The educational programmes for pre-tertiary education are conducted in pursuance of the principle governing the provision of education, namely that the provision of education should be directed in an educationally responsible manner at the needs of the individual and those of society and at the demands of economic development.

After consultation with the South African Council of Education, also known as the SACE, the hon the Minister approved certain recommendations as guidelines for the drawing up of a general policy with regard to norms and standards for syllabuses, examinations and the certification of qualifications for formal pre-tertiary education. The hon the Minister says that the guidelines have been broadly stated, but what a pity this is, because we would so much have liked to have seen him leave some leeway for open schools. He has a finely planned educational programme which could be put into operation in order to run open schools any time he might choose to do so. Syllabuses are the same; they are equal. Salaries of educators are the same. Examination and certification are the same and are equal in all respects. All the guidelines have been mapped out and the hon the Minister has placed no restrictions in the way of open technikons and open universities. We praise him for this, but for this reason there is also no need to run education separately in so far as pre-tertiary education in South Africa is concerned.

Our appeal for an open education system is in line with the new era which South Africa has entered. It would enable us to stand head and shoulders above every other education system in Africa. If open tertiary education can work, then open pre-tertiary education can also work. The norms and guidelines are worthy of praise. These have been laid down and determine aspects with regard to all educators in the service of education. There was a time when every education department had its own conditions of service. Moreover, regions falling under the same education department differed in their interpretation of the regulations, a practice which hampered the determination of education.

This is indeed a glad day for me, because the norms and guidelines for the administration of education have been mapped out. Furthermore, I have studied the norms closely in order to determine whether they contain any discrimination. I am delighted to see, however, that there are no discriminatory practices whatsoever.

I wish to say something about our youth organisations. We welcome the establishment of youth organisations which have balanced and positive aims, and which, where necessary, may possibly receive financial and other assistance from the authorities. At the handing over of cheques to community-oriented bodies on 17 March 1989 quite a number of youth organisations received financial assistance from the Minister of Education and Culture. We were pleased to see a new set of adventure clubs and cultural organisations make their appearance among the well-known organisations such as the Boys’ Brigade and the church brigades. We welcome this. The quality of education and the type of education that is now being given, must be altered from academic to technical.

Another success story is that of the youth indaba. One of the hon CP spokesmen criticised the Maties yesterday because they were moving outwards. He asserted that although he was a former Matie, he condemned the discussions which a few Maties had held with the ANC. That is a pity.

Several years ago certain critics not only discouraged discussions between local youth groups from various population groups, but they also strongly condemned them. I am pleased that the Maties, as well as other youth organisations, have broken out of that cocoon. The hon member Mr Desmond Lockey is a popular speaker and participant at youth rallies. Stellenbosch accommodates more than 400 delegates at a time. There are other obstacles on the path of peaceful negotiation and reform. Outmoded concepts which contribute to further problems, are condemned and must be removed.

In the 1960s our youth lived like strangers in isolation from one another. In order to overcome this, the Witsies and the Ikeys, as the hon member for Germiston alleges, had to go and apply and develop their expertise and brain power productively in other countries. I assert that they did nothing but run away from job reservation. My appeal for an open education system in which our children can come to know and respect one another, is based on the advantages this could entail in the way of job creation and a flourishing economy.

The son of one of my friends at Mossel Bay is training skilled workers for Mossgas. He told me over the Easter weekend that the manpower policy at Mossgas was to use local instead of imported labour.

At the Sasol plants our children, including my own son, measured their skill and training against the standards of the foreign workers. They were not put to shame. This speaks volumes for our educational system.

In a few years’ time Mossgas will be the success story of the 20th century, just as the Sasol saga was the success story of the 1980s.

Mr Chairman, I wish to talk about some of the achievements or the lack of achievements of the hon the Minister in recent years. When I think of his speech about an “about turn”, I think many of the aspects of education have had an about turn where they do not need one, and of others that need one and have not had one.

I wish to look at three issues, namely the abandoning of the 10 year plan for dramatic upgrading; the causes of the major exodus of teachers which has happened under this hon Minister’s jurisdiction; and the firm resistance of the Government to opening schools.

Yesterday we were disappointed and astonished to hear the hon the Minister tell us that the 10 year plan for dramatic upgrading has been abandoned because of the poor economic growth. What are the facts? In April 1986 the hon the Minister announced the 10 year plan. The average economic growth in the period 1981 to 1985 was 0,3% per annum. Since his announcement in 1986, in the past three years the average real economic growth has been 1,8% per annum, in other words about six times as much. Economic growth has actually been faster in the three years since his announcement in 1986 than in the four years before 1986.

But much lower than we need!

I do not accept that the hon the Minister can explain away abandoning a plan to bring about dramatic upgrading towards educational equality on the grounds of disappointing economic growth. The simple fact is that education does not enjoy the priority it deserves, particularly if the people concerned are Black. I am appalled at the thought that the hon the Minister is now talking about making Std 4 one of the exit points from the education system. Apartheid is ruining our economy. Together, apartheid and our depressed economy are ruining education in this country.

I also wish to refer to the teachers. The demoralisation of the teaching profession, in White education at least, has reached crisis proportions. There is inadequate remuneration and this has resulted in public confrontational statements, an inability to make ends meet, low status, reduced motivation and resignations. In 1988 at least 884 teachers were lost to the profession as a result of the acceptance of non-teaching posts and 4 382 teachers left for what are classified as “other reasons”, whatever those reasons may be.

Many of our best teachers have left or are considering leaving the profession. This hon Minister is sowing the seeds for declining standards in education, and I believe that the biggest danger is that the harm being caused will only be recognised when it is too late. When we are looking for teachers to fill promotion posts in five or ten years’ time, many of the best potential applicants will not be left in the profession.

The hon the Minister is using a short-term expedient to save some money but in the process he is mortgaging future educational standards. What the Government is doing is so dangerous because its worst side-effects are not immediately obvious. It is letting loose a degenerative disease in education, the full effects of which will only become obvious in the years to come, by which time many will have forgotten the cause and many others will have forgotten what top quality school education really is.

We should remember the effects of the deliberate neglect of Black education between 1955 and 1968 when Government spending on Black education was pegged. The results were disastrous and Black education has still not recovered from that era. The Government is now making the same mistake in White education. The context, motive and relative standards are different but the effect will be the same. It will be extremely harmful to the education system and to the country.

The DP believes that a top-quality and highly motivated teaching profession is essential. South Africa cannot afford to have the pursuit of second or third best as its education policy. Teachers must be accorded the status and the remuneration that they deserve. The Government should take action now before irreparable harm is done to our schools. We dare not play games with the education of our children and grandchildren.

Finally, I want to deal with wasted manpower and facilities. We all know that this is happening but despite all the shortages and the express wishes of many parents, the NP refuses to allow any White schools to admit pupils of other races. I want to know whether the hon the Minister is doing anything about that.

Once again apartheid rules supreme. Apartheid first; education second or third or worse. We need to get our priorities right if we are to survive and prosper. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, yesterday the hon the Minister of National Education had the courage to admit that education in South Africa was in a tight spot and also that the 10-year plan is doomed. I admire his honesty and his frankness in admitting that disparity in our educational system exists, such as the teacher-pupil ratio, in teaching qualifications, lower standard of passes in matric results and so forth. I am hopeful from his statement that a way will be found and strategies planned to remedy the situation.

I want to refer to economics and education. Whilst economic growth affects educational standards in South Africa, it is equally true that education influences economic growth. The provision of education in South Africa is unique. Ethnicity is the hallmark of the South African educational system. Education is based on racial grouping, calling it separate but equal. This is a fallacy.

Economic growth does influence the social, cultural and educational progress of all South Africans. What has gone wrong with our economy? What has caused the downturn in the economy? It is the apartheid system. Apartheid protects the Whites and is despised by the majority of the South African people. Apartheid has aroused worldwide reaction to the erosion of human dignity in this country.

Is that why Africa has economic problems?

I am coming to the hon member. Take boycotts, disinvestments, sanctions, withdrawal of foreign capital, lack of confidence in the rand, sports boycotts, terrorism and the total onslaught on this country—how does the hon member expect our economy to improve?

One man, one vote is going to solve it?

If resentment is expressed both internally and externally, then there is something wrong. The Government and its supporters cannot be so naive as not to see the disaster and not to foresee the future.

I wish to refer to the hon member for Germiston who said that those skilled personnel who are leaving the country, are betrayers. If the thinking of that hon member is a reflection of the NP, then I am afraid that they are living with their heads buried in the sand. If that hon member claims that he was an English teacher, I wonder if he taught the children distorted facts about emigrating people. It would appear that those immigrating, coming into the country, are betrayers of their countries. Yet he finds it suitable to accept them as villains in this country.

They are coming for money.

It would be a great tragedy if the hon member ever writes a history text. What we need in South Africa are projections for the 21st century. We are about to enter a new era, a new South Africa, a post-apartheid South Africa. The hon the Minister mentioned a vision. I hope that vision will take some positive steps in the improvement of education for all of us in this country.

In this new South Africa, first of all, White attitudes must change. The non-Whites also have to adapt to the changing times in order to build a new South Africa and a new nation. Our principal objective should be the preparation of the nation for national unity in a multiracial society. Education could play a pivotal role in this respect.

The present cultural diversity should not deter us from our objective of improving the quality of education and the quality of life of every individual in this country of ours. Education must therefore be seen as an investment in economic prosperity. This investment will pay dividends— dividends in wealth, in a sense of values and responsibility, in stability and peace, and in a sense of pride and national unity.

I am aware of the reforms taking place. Reforms have been programmed, but they must be expedited. Now is the opportune time to prepare for the 21st century and the emergence of a united South Africa. The starting point could be the inculcating in our schoolchildren of an understanding of human nature, the dignity of man and respect for one’s fellow beings.

Separate education brings with it a lack of understanding, dislike and hatred and, above all, suspicion. This is the case at present. Because of its ethnic base, education is suspect; understandably so if one looks at the Black matric results, which are distressing news. There is a dramatic difference if one compares the results of Whites, Coloureds and Indians with those of the Black candidates, 99 743—that is 57,4%—of whom passed Std 10 last year while 71 223 or 42% failed. What is going to be the fate of those 71 000 students who failed? They cannot go back and they have faded out of the picture.

I want to qualify this. The matric results we saw last year might have been the result of past neglect of Black education, and I am hopeful that the programmes that have been designed now will lead to better results in future. However, we must still examine the reasons for this big failure rate. We may come up with various answers, but I feel that one of the reasons for this malaise is the disparity in the provision of education. Because of the system of separate education, we cannot share our resources; we have hundreds of suitably qualified teachers who cannot be accommodated; we have teacher training institutions standing empty; we have schools that have been abandoned due to the declining school population; and we have the shocking statistics that were revealed yesterday, namely that there are 250 000 vacant places in White schools.

Whom do we blame? Do we blame the economy? Money and resources have been wasted and this is the price that we pay for separateness. Let us change and allow every individual to develop to his highest potential. Let no man be denied his right to the best in education. I therefore call for the opening of all schools to all population groups.

We need to co-ordinate education at the highest level. In a unitary system the mechanics of administration could be worked out. I am hopeful that this will be addressed for the sake of the new South Africa.

I come to an important aspect of education, namely sport. The proverb refers to “a sound mind in a sound body”. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to fund sport in schools at the local and national levels, to integrate sport in schools and to hold national competitions on a multiracial basis. Sport in non-White schools is neglected, not because of inability, but because of the lack of facilities, of funds and, above all, of a competitive spirit.

The segregated sports policy in our schools allows critics to campaign successfully against South Africa. It offers them sympathy and a platform for renewed boycotts both in sport and culture. Integrated sport will also contribute to national unity.

I recently witnessed the crowd at the Curry Cup cricket final between Western Province and Transvaal. I have never seen such exuberance and patriotism among the non-White people supporting their White South Africa team. There is hope and a lot of goodwill amongst our people. We need to inculcate this in our children so that they will grow together, support each other and work towards national unity in this country. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Merebank says that apartheid is actually responsible for the downswing in the South African economy. [Interjections.] That is what he says. I would like to point out to him that there is no apartheid in the rest of Africa and in other Third World countries and yet their economies are in a disastrous condition.

This is South Africa.

A Black leader in Africa exclaimed that Africa is dying economically without apartheid. [Interjections.] I would like to say that we should not try to oversimplify a situation which is already difficult to handle due to the deep-rooted cultural diversity of our country. That is the way I would like to respond to the hon member for Merebank. [Interjections.]

*When one reads the Department of National Education’s annual report, one is struck by the broad spectrum of activities covered by this department.

I really do not want to say this reproachfully, but in listening to the speeches of many of the hon members of the opposition in the House of Assembly and some of the hon members of the other two Houses in the discussion of this Vote so far, one would think the Department of National Education worked only with education as such, and not with man’s total education.

It is a matter of the education of the Whites.

It is a matter of the total education …

That hon member said it was a matter of the total education of Whites. That is not true, because the Department of National Education as a general department works with all the people in our country.

Naturally education is a very important component of this department’s activities—we do not want to dispute that—but in my opinion we would be diminishing and detracting from the discussion of the Vote if we did not emphasise more aspects of the activities of this important Department of National Education. That was merely by the way.

I now want to refer to two matters that I regard as important with reference to the annual report and the activities of the department. In the first place I want to talk briefly about the adjustments that have been made to the department’s science policy and I want to refer in particular to the new framework autonomy or framework control for scientific councils. Secondly I want to express a few thoughts about the Foundation for the Creative Arts which was established on 24 February this year.

It is my opinion that the hon the Minister of National Education and his department should be congratulated on the decisions that were taken in respect of the more autonomous functioning of the five scientific councils. I should like to mention them in the debate for the sake of comprehensiveness. They are the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research— the CSIR— the Human Sciences Research Council— the HSRC— the South African Medical Research Council— the MRC— the Council for Mineral Technology—Mintek—and lastly the South African Bureau of Standards— the SABS.

In terms of this new approach the scientific councils now have a greater degree of autonomy with regard to two matters in particular, viz staff administration and the utilisation of funds. In the past these councils were restricted in their activities, especially by administrative regulations. What is pleasing, however, is that when we read the reports about them, it is clear to us that to a very great extent these restrictive regulations on the part of the State have been reduced drastically.

In respect of the financing of these scientific councils, the Government has decided that the State will provide direct financing only for the most essential activities for which it is not easy to get industrial financing. The purpose is to restrict the State’s support in respect of these councils and to make them function in a more need-orientated way. As a result the emphasis now falls on the rendering of service by the scientific councils to the Government as well as to the private sector on a contract basis.

It is to be welcomed that these councils now can and must function in the open market to a greater extent, because—I think this has always been a deficiency in respect of the activities of these very important scientific councils—superior brain power and expertise will now be more readily available to the private sector and therefore also to the broad community. I understand that this adjustment in the department’s science policy is yielding good results, because the financial contributions from the private sector have increased drastically via contract work on a client basis. I have also been informed that the standpoint I have just stated is correct. The facts prove it.

The second matter that I want to refer to is the establishment of the Foundation for the Creative Arts on 24 February this year.

In this respect I also want to say that it has been claimed for too long that the Government wants to control and regulate everything in this country. I maintain that that is not true. This was also made very clear by the hon the Minister of National Education in the speech he made in Pretoria on the occasion of the establishment of the Foundation for the Creative Arts on 24 February 1989. I quote from his speech. He said:

I hope that the arts boycotters, wherever they may be, will take cognisance of the Government’s wise standpoints on its approach to the creative arts.

In dealing with and taking decisions on the abovementioned two and other matters, the hon the Minister and the Department of National Education have given concrete proof that the Government is implementing its established policy of deregulation and privatisation in word and deed. There can be no doubt about that any more. In the long term this will be to the great advantage of all the people who have to live and work in South Africa.

Specially for the hon members of the CP: These benefits will be at the disposal of all the people who have to live and work together in this country.

Mr Chairman, in accordance with the National Policy for General Education Affairs Act, No 76 of 1984, in section 2, subsection (1), paragraph (d), subparagraph (i) provision is made for the following:

If one looks at the matriculation results of last year for the various population groups, it is very clear that there will be no question at all of equal education opportunities for our less privileged population groups in the foreseeable future.

I want to use the 1988 matriculation pass mark as a criterion to demonstrate the disparity in education among the White, the Black and the nonWhite population groups. For Whites the figure is an average of 95%, for the non-Whites it is 67,8% and for the Blacks 57,4%. These statistics alone indicate how wide the gap is in the disparity in education between these Black population groups.

The disparity in education between the White population group on the one hand and the non-White and Black population groups on the other, is also reflected very clearly in the unit expenditure per pupil. A comparison of the unit expenditure per pupil for 1987 shows that the amount for the White group was R2 722, for the non-White R1 021,41 and for the Black R476,95.

Now the hon the Minister will immediately attribute these differences to the higher qualifications of White teachers, but then I immediately want to add that the teacher-pupil ratio emphasises this disparity further, because the approximate figures for 1987 were as follows: White, 1:16; non-White, 1:24; Black 1:48.

My colleague, the hon member for Berg River, mentioned yesterday that there were up to 50 pupils in a class in our schools. Furthermore in Black schools there are up to 70 pupils in a class.

The disparity in education between the various population groups is a source of great concern. That is why we received the announcement of the hon the Minister of National Education in 1986, about the phasing in of the 10-year plan to resolve this disparity, with great enthusiasm. I quote from Die Burger of 17 April 1986:

Furthermore he said:

In this House yesterday the non the Minister again undertook to provide equal opportunities in education, but then he also declared that it had not been possible to implement his proposed 10-year plan owing to the unfavourable economic factors in this country.

This afternoon I want to make a truly earnest appeal to the hon the Minister. At the moment he occupies one of the most powerful positions in this country and he may soon occupy the most powerful position in this country. He must stand up and with all his forthrightness throw open all the education facilities that have been closed to people of colour until now.

If he does that, he does not need a strong economic growth rate to move towards parity in education. The hon the Minister may expect opposition from the CP in this respect, but they oppose everything the NP does, even when it has inherent advantages for the White electorate. I wish to propose that he commences with the opening of colleges of education and technikons. In this way the highly sophisticated education technology will be made available to people of colour, without the duplication and triplication of services.

According to the hon the Minister’s 1988 annual report the task of the National Education Policy Branch is inter alia to “provide support to the Minister in the formulating of general education policy”, and this branch is “also involved in the negotiations and the extended consultation processes that are characteristic of education, but which are also imperative in the broader aspect of education”.

If I am interpreting it correctly it is the task of the National Education Policy Branch to co-ordinate the activities of the 10 different education departments so that equal standards of education can be achieved. There is a definite lack of coordination in respect of uniformity in the provision of education equipment and teaching aids for example. If this branch had discharged its function of coordination properly, the serious irregularities which have occurred in the Department of Education and Training, as reflected in the report of the commission of inquiry into matters concerning that department, would not have occurred on such a wide scale, and the phasing in of the use of computers in the Department of Education and Training would surely not have resulted in such a great waste of money and manpower.

Owing to the lack of effective coordination and consultation between the various education departments, millions of rands are being wasted on education facilities, teaching aids and in-service training courses that are being duplicated and even triplicated in approximately 10 own affairs education departments. Another plea I want to make is that the hon the Minister’s department assume the responsibility, apart from making educational facilities available to all, of also developing uniform teaching aids in future in order to give expression to section 2 (d) (i) of the National Policy for General Education Affairs Act.

Therefore if there are cooperation agreements, consultation and coordination among the various education departments, as the hon the Minister envisages, surely all education departments will be able to share in the variety of sophisticated teaching aids and in-service training courses that are available to the teachers and pupils of the Administration: House of Assembly at the moment, but not to people of colour. The Director of Education of the Cape, Dr Walters, reported in his 1984 annual report that their computer programmes were in demand as far afield as England. Why could they not have been made available to us as well? As a result of the lack of coordination between the Department of National Education on the one hand and the other 10 education departments on the other, the schools of the Administration: House of Representatives for example will not be able to use these world-famous programmes.

This is only because the White schools have IBM compatible computers and the Coloureds have Commodore computers that are not compatible with other systems. It will cost millions of rands just to correct this one error, so that our schools can make use of these sought-after and world-famous programmes. The hon the Minister will not be able to achieve his objectives of the 10-year plan or those of the National Policy for Education unless he is prepared to open all the education facilities to people of colour.

Since the announcement of the 10-year plan by the hon the Minister in 1986, the gap in disparity grew wider rather than narrower.

Apartheid has made my community a poor community. According to the Bureau for Market Research the per capita income for 1987 in nominal terms for the various population groups is as follows: White R28 528, Asian R11 163, Coloured R8 388 and Black R7 824.

One of the factors responsible for the differences in school achievement that I mentioned is the economic status of pupils’ families. The effect of poverty greatly influences the disparity in education as we are experiencing it at present. That is why it is imperative that the Government allocates more funds to the underprivileged communities.

In view of this I therefore make an urgent appeal to the hon the Minister in question to increase the pace of the implementation of the 10-year plan to abolish disparity in education.

Since I still have a few minutes at my disposal, I wish to refer to the speech made by the hon member for Kempton Park. I listened with interest to her reference to school-based management in education where parents must make a contribution to education on the third tier of government. I want to tell that hon member that that plan is impractical for as long as non-Whites do not have direct representation on the third tier of government.

With respect to that part of the hon member’s speech on our having only one education system in this country, I want to refer the hon member to the hon the Minister’s information brochure “Onderwys in die RSA”, 1986. On page 1 it says that there are ten education departments in this country. No wonder the hon the Minister had such a sardonic smile on his face when the hon member mentioned this yesterday.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Bokkeveld said with justification that the Government had given certain undertakings regarding parity in the provision of education to all population groups in South Africa, and I shall return to this later in my speech.

The hon member for Stellenbosch alleged yesterday that the vast majority of Stellenbosch students were not in favour of dialogue with the ANC. If that is the case, and I wish to believe it is, I welcome it because then the majority of students at Stellenbosch are potential CP supporters. [Interjections.] On this occasion, however, I want to ask the hon member for Stellenbosch why it is the case that the NP’s student branch decided—or did they perhaps receive orders to that effect?—no longer to be the respondent tomorrow night when the student council reconsiders its decisions on not conducting dialogue with the ANC.

They were not respondents at any time!

Why are the NP students no longer prepared to adopt a standpoint on this in public?

They are doing that!

I was informed that they would originally have participated in the debate. I was informed further that they would argue in favour of the retention of the student council’s standpoint against dialogue with the ANC. The question now is why they have dropped this matter like a hot potato.

[Inaudible.]

The hon member for Stellenbosch says that they are definitely going to participate now. Good, then I accept it as such.

I said that they were not respondents at any time, neither were they to take part!

Mr Chairman, the question is whether there is a split in NP student ranks on this matter. [Interjections.] Are there students who perhaps think that it is necessary for the NP also to permit its people to hold discussions with the ANC? [Interjections.]

But Carel Boshoff’s son talks to the ANC!

Then there is yet another possibility of course. Is it perhaps that the hon member for Stellenbosch is afraid that he may have to lose votes to the DP if his supporters adopt a standpoint against dialogue with the ANC? [Interjections.] I shall leave the matter at that.

Yesterday the hon the Minister announced that his 10-year plan would possibly have to be reviewed. I welcome the fact that this matter has come up for discussion again. Prof Hennie Maree, Chairman of the TO, specifically said last Friday evening that parity in education was no longer feasible if the Government wanted to maintain White educational standards with it. The CP has put this standpoint on various occasions. With the limited income of the State it is just not possible both to maintain White educational standards and bring about parity in the provision of education to all population groups.

They must be the same!

The hon member says they must be the same. The hon member for Pot-gietersrus has already pointed out that the hon the Minister actually admitted yesterday that the Government’s 10-year plan had failed. I now want to request the hon the Minister to take all parties interested in the matter—that is to say all population groups—into his confidence and to tell us during this debate what the Government standpoint is in this regard.

The question which we are putting to him is simple. Does he stand by his promise that Whites will be able to maintain their educational standards regardless of the consequences which this holds for the other population groups in the country or does he stand by his undertaking to the other population groups that parity in the provision of education will be brought about for them too? These intentions are obviously not both feasible.

I want to illustrate this to hon members here in the light of a few facts. In 1987 only 41% of all Black teachers had a maximum qualification of Standard 8—aside from their teacher training.

That is not their fault!

In KwaZulu it was as high as 77%. In Coloured education fully 29% of all qualified teachers are in possession of a Standard 8 or lower qualification. Compared with this, the White figure is 0%.

The same backlogs exist among the other population groups as regards the pupil-teacher ratio, amenities and so on. Let us admit this frankly to one another this afternoon. Even if the growth rate in the economy had been 4,1%, as the hon the Minister envisaged in his 10-year plan, and even if the growth rate had been far higher than 4,1%, it would still have been impossible to bring about parity in the provision of education. The hon the Minister created expectations which the Government simply cannot satisfy. [Interjections.]

The simple question to which all population groups want an answer now is the following. If the Government, in consequence of economic realities, cannot maintain White educational standards and bring about parity for the other population groups at the same time, which will he choose. That he shall have to choose is certain. He can do nothing else. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I feel very honoured this afternoon to be able to take part in this debate in this Chamber. It is something I never dreamed would ever be possible—not even in my wildest dreams. This afternoon, however, it is a reality.

Mr Chairman. I do not have the time to react to any of the previous speakers, or to the hon the Minister in the tight-spot situation. I have a message which I want to deliver in the time allocated to me.

Knowledge does not comprise all that is contained in the larger term of education. The feelings are to be disciplined, the passions are to be restrained, true worthy motives are to be inspired, a profound religious feeling is to be instilled and pure morality inculcated under all circumstances. This is compromised in education. The field of education is very wide and there is no end to education. We learn every day.

On Friday, 7 April, while I was in the joint meeting I received a message to phone a school principal in Umzinto urgently, which I did. I found that he had the problem of a White child who wanted to enrol at his school. He completed the necessary forms and decided to phone me to see if I could assist. His worry was that the child had not attended school since the Easter vacation and he did not want the child to lose any more school days.

After talking to him, I was on my way back to the Chamber when I saw the hon the Minister of National Education in the foyer. I discussed it with him and he very politely told me to talk to the Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Delegates who would take the matter up with his counterpart in the House of Assembly. The point I am making here is that the hon the Minister of National Education taught me something. He actually educated me on this issue, for which I am very grateful. I want to thank him for that.

South Africa was governed by White people: Dutch 1652—1806; British 1806—1910; Parliament of the Union of South Africa, 31 May 1910. So Whites have governed South Africa for over 300 years. Therefore, they know what Parliament is all about. They have experience, skill and knowledge. I make a personal appeal, not on behalf of my party or the hon members of my House. This is my personal appeal to the hon the Minister to appoint an ombudsman to the House of Delegates, say after the next election— the election too will be an education—to train members who come into the House of Delegates on parliamentary procedures, conventions, and more. If this had been done in 1984 I am certain all that has happened in the House of Delegates would not have occurred, including the James Commission.

There is something that happened today, but I do not have time to deal with that right now. There is never a dull moment in the House of Delegates. [Interjections.]

According to Alvin Toffler’s Learning for Tomorrow the future of education is the future of mankind. Education should ensure that tomorrow is not a repetition of yesterday, and it is in this context that I wish to direct the rest of my contribution to this debate.

I wish to quote the following:

These are shocking words but they represent the findings of the United Nations National Commission on Excellence in Education which published a comprehensive report in 1983. The Commission’s findings were based on 18 months of study, and as hon members can see, they are bleak and frightening.

In the same year the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching published its findings on the American high school. Recently the Carnegie Foundation issued a similar report on the American university. Both reports showed that American education is in serious trouble. Who would dare to deny or pretend that our education is not in serious trouble as well?

Everyone has an opinion about what the problem is and how it can be solved. These problems are isolated by their observable symptoms, for example, drug abuse, child abuse, sex abuse and more. Special programmes are hastily directed at such symptoms totally neglecting the root cause of the problem which lies in the poor development of personality and the lack or absence of any values. Such superficial treatment of symptoms never yields positive, lasting results.

It is common, of course, to blame the schools. However, schools are composed of individuals, teachers, pupils and administrators and they are only members of society at large. If schools and colleges are misguided, it is because society at large has lost its way. We all agree that we are what our total education has made us. I would therefore like to reiterate my opening statement that the future of education is the future of mankind.

Education is often called the engine of society. It is responsible for what we are as individuals, what our nation is and what the world is like. Education occurs everywhere, not just in the classroom. Hence the importance of the right education. It determines whether we know the way to peace, happiness and success.

Our world is full of knowledge. Knowledge is increasing at an incredible and bewildering pace, and yet this knowledge or education is not eliminating war, hate, crime, environmental destruction, unhappy families and failed lives. If anything, the problems that beset mankind seem to be increasing in intensity. We are standing at the crossroads, helplessly witnessing the strange paradox that has engulfed the whole world. On one hand are the amazing marvels of science and technology and on the other the sighs of discontent and confusion.

We are living in an age of guided missiles, but misguided men. We seem to know the price of everything, but the value of nothing. We have the best of appliances and items for luxury and comfort. Everything seems to be perfect, and yet the ones for whom they are intended are becoming more and more unhappy.

This shattering of basic faith in mankind is not confined to our country alone, but pervades the entire universe. Let us ask ourselves what has gone wrong and where. True or right education should cause the disappearance of social pathology, war, terrorism, hatred, corruption and injustice. It should foster values and lead to happy, productive and successful lives. Is that not the type of education we all want for our children and even for ourselves? True education demands more than just possessing information about basic human values. It requires a continuing change of behaviour in a wholesome direction.

Albert Einstein, acknowledged to have had one of the greatest scientific minds, said: “It is essential that we acquire an understanding of and a lively feeling for values of the morally good. Otherwise we, with our specialised knowledge, more closely resemble a well-trained dog than a harmoniously developed person”.

The British writer John Ruskin said: “Education does not mean teaching people to know what they do not know; it means teaching them to behave as they do not behave”.

The aim of all education, whether at home, at work, at play or at school, ought to be the teaching of what we call values, not merely the funnelling of information into empty minds. There lies the rub, however. Which values are we to learn? What are values anyway? Who can teach values? How can values be taught?

The programme of education in human values seeks to settle this dilemma. The definition of basic human values comprehending all cultures, religions, faiths, sections and traditions of the world has fortunately emerged out of the integral philosophy of Shri Sathya Sai Baba as a result of continuous experimentation in the educational institutions run by his organisation over the past two decades. He may not have given to us high-sounding terminologies, as is the fashion throughout the world, but his philosophy can be understood by the common man. He does not use the ringing phrases common to educationists, psychologists, intellectuals, philosophers, scientists, economists etc, which appeal only to the head and are extremely difficult to translate into action programmes.

Integral education refuses to lose sight of the wood for the trees. Sai Baba’s education in human values programme is based on the universal values of truth, right conduct, peace, love and non-violence—values which are cherished by all faiths and religions of the world. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Umzinto has made a number of very interesting remarks to illustrate that the problems that we face in South Africa are not unique to the South African situation but are international problems. I wish to thank him and I think that all hon members should keep this in mind when debating South African issues.

*As the hon member Dr Golden said earlier, the Department of National Education deals with a very large variety of matters, and I should like to spend my time today on one of these important matters, viz sport. Hon members will remember that there were days when sport in South Africa had a very strong political colour. Since 1979, however, the Government has begun with what I want to refer to as its sports reform policy, and it was decided that sport belonged in the hands of the South African sports administrators so that they could arrange their own affairs. The Government also took positive action to amend legislation so that discrimination that existed in sport could be removed.

I think it can justifiably be said today that we have got rid of all the so-called sport apartheid, and there is every opportunity for all the inhabitants of South Africa, irrespective of race, colour or creed, to take part in sport. The South African Government does not prescribe how teams that are made up in South Africa or which come to South Africa should be selected. Page 32 of the Department of National Education’s annual report specifies the following:

Unfortunately this cannot be said of other governments that are doing exactly what they used to accuse the South African Government of doing, viz interfering when sports teams are put together. Let me give hon members one example of what happened recently. The Indian government interfered in the composition of the English cricket team, and in this way interfered in sport.

Unfortunately it is true that since the advent of the CP everything has been politicised and politics has been drawn into sport once again. I want to be very serious today in saying that just as every businessman who votes for the CP in the coming election must know that he is voting for a party that advocates a policy which will ultimately lead to his bankruptcy, every sportsman, sportswoman, sports administrator and sports lover who votes for the CP in the coming election must know that he will be voting for a party which will ultimately be the cause of our never having any form of international sport or any international sportsman in this country again. [Interjections.] That is a “ping” as the hon member for Kuruman said.

No, tell us. Do we have international recognition in athletics and rugby at the moment?

Order! The hon member for Losberg must not keep on interjecting in that way.

If only the hon member for Losberg, who is so disturbed all of a sudden, had paged through the annual report of the Department of National Education, he would have seen how many international sports activities had taken place in which South Africa had been involved. [Interjections.]

Would it not be a wonderful day if sport worldwide were regulated by the sporting communities? The question that involuntarily arises is whether it has not become clear to the inciters of sports boycotts that just as economic boycotts have not and will not bring this country to a fall, sports boycotts do not achieve anything other than discriminating against precisely those people they profess to be helping.

I want to support this statement by means of the following example. On 5 March a number of world renowned cricket players took part in a cricket meeting here in Langa. Norman Gifford, the former county player and also a player for England, said, and I quote from Die Burger of 6 March:

It is a great pleasure for me to pay tribute today to all the sports administrators, the sportsmen and the sportswomen who have continued, with exceptional dedication and sacrifice to resist the isolation despite everything. I think that with the recent establishment of the Federation of South African Sport the time has come for the sporting community to follow the example of these boycotters, who are trying to isolate South Africa in orchestrated fashion, by purposefully doing everything in their power to oppose the fact that we are being boycotted.

In my opinion this confederation is eminently suited to dealing with this matter. When one looks at the confederation’s memorandum of association, one can honestly find no justification for the continued exclusion of South Africa from world sport. Among other things this memorandum says that it is the confederation’s objective to watch over the just and fair provision and promotion of sport and recreation among all the population groups of the Republic of South Africa, to create social bonds within the diversity of the South African society through the medium of sport and recreation so as to stabilise relations, and to contribute to the enhancement of the quality of life, the moral and physical well-being of the community and to building a peaceful South Africa. The objectives of this confederation also include the recognition of the condition that there will be no discrimination in the provision of sport and recreation, but that there will be equality of opportunities, irrespective of race, colour, creed, age or political convictions.

In primary school sport as well?

Perhaps that is where that hon member belongs with his petty remarks.

I think hon members will agree with me that there is no justification for South Africa’s further exclusion from international sport. When the Gleneagles Agreement was agreed to by the Commonwealth countries in 1977, it was said that sports links with South Africa should be suspended until so-called sport apartheid had disappeared. In 1988 the British Minister of Sport, Mr Colin Moynihan, acknowledged that South Africa now complies with the requirements of the Gleneagles Agreement, yet they still do not see their way clear to participating.

I should like to address a warning to the international sports organisations that are denying South Africa participation. They must not complain when the South African sports administrators start making use of unorthodox methods to ensure international competition. I should like to tell these sports administrators and sportsmen and sportswomen that the Government will do everything in its power to assist them.

South Africa is on the threshold of a new era—an exciting challenge. As the leader-in-chief of the NP, the hon the Minister of National Education has once again committed himself to the fact that the NP wants to establish a South Africa in which every inhabitant will be able to enjoy his full rights. More than ever it is necessary to improve human relations and to build bridges so that tomorrow’s South Africa can be a better place for all its residents. Sport can play a significant part in this. Let us earnestly accept this wonderful challenge together.

Mr Chairman, I am pleased that I can participate in this historic debate in this Chamber after being a member of the joint committee for five years.

After listening to yesterday’s debate in which certain members on this side of the House made certain statements in the interests of their own groups and people and not I believe, in the interests of the country, I nearly changed my whole speech last night, as well as the spirit in which I was going to deliver it. However, after thinking it over carefully, I decided against it.

†In speaking in support of this Vote, I want first of all take the opportunity of congratulating the hon the Minister and my colleague on the important position of overall leader of the NP in which he finds himself at this moment and time in history. I wish to assure him of my support in the vital role that he is going to play in the testing and challenging time which lies ahead in the political arena in South Africa.

*I believe the hon Minister of National Education— the new leader of the NP—is the man of whom I read in my childhood years at school in the poem, “Ek hou van ’n man wat sy man kan staan, ek hou van ’n man wat sy slag kan slaan.” I believe this hon Minister is the man who will lead us further on the way to reform.

Slowly!

The record will show that in my three and a half years as first Leader of the Official Opposition and chief spokesman on education in our Chamber, I often confronted the hon the Minister and often had heated exchanges on educational issues with him inside the Chamber. However, I can face him in this Chamber and in this debate today without bitterness and malice because I believe we are both in the same boat paddling towards that new South Africa along the road of negotiation and reform. The differences we had in the past on policy and strategy concerning educational matters still remain today.

Since the inception of the tricameral system, over the past five years the disparities, backlogs and shortcomings in education for people of colour and various population groups other than White in this country have come under the spotlight as never before. In my years as opposition leader, I used every opportunity to fight for the removal of partitions which divide us into racial entities in education. We share a common fatherland, we have one flag, we have one anthem, one identity document, one citizenship and we worship one God. Why must we continue having different education departments and Ministries of education. I must concede that for the first time in the history of Parliament, a determined effort has been started towards the removal of these disparities, the pace of which I do believe must accelerate.

*I have been involved for longer than 20 years in Coloured education and gained experience at more than twelve schools in the Coloured areas on the Cape Flats.

I experienced those disparities in education and survived them so that I can take my place in this Chamber today to make a contribution.

The history of Coloured education indicates clearly that the Government has neglected the provision of education over the years and entrusted it to the control of missionary societies. After 1910 it was controlled by the provinces. For 1964 to 1980 it was controlled by the Department of Coloured Affairs, and then the Department of Internal Affairs, and it is now controlled by the present own affairs department under the hon Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Representatives.

†Over many years, whilst the provision of White education to Whites flourished to the greater advantage and progress of this sector of our community, many of the responsibilities of our people were left in the hands of State-aided organisations. This has also lead to much resentment and arguments. Eventually it erupted in great violent outbursts and protest which even resulted in the loss of precious lives. People of colour in South Africa reject the system of differentiated education—State education systems according to population groups—provided by the State.

Despite the arguments of ethnicity and the multiplicity of cultural minorities—each for its own culture and language—and despite the far-reaching political and socio-economic reforms introduced by the State to create greater involvement by people of colour in the decisionmaking processes, the policy of separate education structures and departments remains Government policy.

Over the years the Government has repeatedly expressed its commitment to equality in the standards of education and facilities for all. This commitment makes good news. It illuminates reform outside this country. The new 10-year programme which we have heard of from many speakers is failing. Is this 10-year programme initiated by the hon the Minister in 1986 really on the way to achieve what it set out to do and that is to upgrade and to eliminate the historical backlogs in non-White education?

The various systems of education provided by the different education departments may be better in some cases. They may be worse in others and even sometimes the same but it is a fact—as shown by the large number of State-aided and farm schools for non-Whites, especially in the rural areas, if by nothing else in comparison—that equal education is not provided for all our children. This state of affairs cannot remain and must be addressed with greater intensity. How many farm schools for White pupils are there in South Africa today? Let us be honest.

I must at this point in closing congratulate the hon the Minister on his glossy and very informative annual report. However, here again, as we go over the multiple programmes in there, especially regarding sport, recreation and cultural activities initiated and staged by the department mainly for Whites, in chapter after chapter, it becomes clear that our people are neglected by this department.

Finally, as this 5-year term draws to a climax, let us admit honestly that we have started like a wood-cutter hewing away at this mighty tree of apartheid. Let us resolve today to remove those wails which divide us socially, culturally and especially in education. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, much has already been said about the hon the Minister’s announcement yesterday that the famous 10-year plan has been abandoned. Apart from the fact that this is a serious reflection on the economy of this country, it is obviously going to be very interesting indeed to see what repercussions this is going to have on education itself, not only national education but own affairs education as well. Obviously that is a matter for the future.

I have studied the hon the Minister’s introductory speech in this House yesterday. He made many points and many issues arose therefrom. Although he touched on a number of points, I would like him to enlarge on one particular aspect mentioned briefly by the hon member for Cape Town Gardens that Stds IV and VII could well be determined in years to come as exit points from the school system. This may well have been nothing more than a timeous warning from the hon the Minister, but so brief was his reference to it—it was virtually a throw-away phrase—that I must ask him whether he would please expand on it and explain fully what he means by it.

Furthermore I would like to ask the hon the Minister whether it is a policy which would apply to all race groups, or only to Black education. I ask further how such a policy would be implemented and what the final object of it would be.

The hon member for Sunnyside spoke at length about sport. He congratulated the Government on its sports policies and certainly gave much credit to the Government for the advancement of sport in this country. There are some aspects raised by him which I would agree with. One in particular would be the CP’s attitude to sport and their sporting policy. Overall, however, he must accept that it is his Government’s policy which has led South Africa into the sporting isolation in which we now find ourselves. For him to pat his party on the back is somewhat ironic.

The 1988 report of the Department of National Education makes the following point:

How true this is. In fact, in sounds very much like the policy of the DP, yet what an incredible weapon sport has become in the international political world and a weapon which political parties and groups in South Africa have used with great success over a number of decades now. The South African Government has been quick to condemn foreign countries for their political interference and hypocritical behaviour towards South African sport and sportsmen. Of course, there is much reason to agree with the Government in its approach to the boycotts and bans, etc with which we are faced on an almost daily basis.

Certainly, when we look at the tremendous work which has been done by bodies in this country such as the South African Cricket Union, the South African Rugby Board and the South African Olympic Committee, to mention but a few, in their endeavours to normalize sport in this country, it is of course tragic that our sportsmen continue to be plagued with isolation in the way that they are. There can be no doubt that a number of major sporting bodies deserve to be congratulated on their endeavours to normalize sport, for by doing so they are in fact helping enormously to normalize society. That is what we all as committed South Africans should be striving to do.

Yet there is so much happening in South Africa itself which continues to ensure South Africa’s sporting isolation. While on the one hand we read about new tennis boycotts against this country, new bans being placed on overseas cricketers who want to play cricket in this country etc, we read on the other hand of tennis clubs in this country which refuse to accept Black members and practise apartheid, and town councils which refuse to allow rugby tournaments to take place on their fields because of Black members in certain teams.

We read about all-White rugby unions being formed in opposition to the SARB and of an all-White South African sports foundation being established. We hear about schools which still refuse to play against other schools because Black players may be involved. This is all happening in South Africa today and we have to accept that apartheid in sport is alive and well. The hon the Minister in charge of sport remains very quiet about these things. There is no condemnation from him when apartheid in sport is still practised, it seems to become a non-issue.

What will the DP do about it?

I will tell the hon member. When two highly respectable South Africans, namely Dr Craven and Dr Luyt, visit the ANC in an honest attempt to put South African rugby back on the map, in other words to end South Africa’s rugby isolation which has crippled that sport so badly, then the hon the Minister acts with the speed of lightning in an attempt to make political gain.

There is no doubt that Dr Luyt and Dr Craven were acting in South Africa’s interest when they made their trip. If they had achieved success as a result of their actions the way in fact would have been paved for other sporting bodies to move towards ending their sporting isolation as well. It was interesting and encouraging to note that Dr Craven, in his call at that time for all race discrimination in sport to be removed, received the backing of all South Africa’s major sporting bodies including the National Soccer League, the South African Amateur Athletics Union, the South African School Sports Union and, of course, the South African Cricket Union.

We all know that the visit by Dr Craven to the ANC caused a furore in this country, but this furore was in fact aided and abetted by none other than the hon the Minister in charge of sport. He did exactly what he has blamed other governments for doing—he involved his Government in a sporting matter, he made statements about it, threatened to withdraw Government subsidies and generally, I believe, acted in a most irresponsible way. It became a political matter because of his intervention and then, of course, the two gentlemen were summoned to a meeting. The hon the Minister tried, as I say, to make political gain for his party out of an issue which really had nothing to do with him.

The hon the Minister in fact also raised the matter on a number of public platforms during the municipal elections, notably of course in CP areas. He was quoted as saying that he was shocked that Dr Craven had bypassed the Government and turned to the ANC for support. [Interjections.] But the hon the Minister must not miss the point. What support has the SARB received from the Government in recent years? It is this same Government which has not only failed to get South Africa out of its sporting isolation but also in fact put us there in the first place. It is this Government with its policies of apartheid in whatever form they take now or in the future which is going to ensure that we remain isolated.

The hon the Minister’s reaction at the time was totally predictable—tough, uncompromising and conservative. Today, however, he is the leader of the NP and the next State President. He is seen now in his new role to be far more conciliatory and far more “verlig” in his approach to matters. If Dr Craven was to visit the ANC today in a genuine attempt to end South Africa’s rugby isolation I wonder if the hon the Minister would handle the matter in the same way as he did then, as he now goes about trying to win friends to the left of the Government. Perhaps the hon the Minister would like to comment on this. [Interjections.]

There is no doubt that sport is as much a political football in this country as anywhere else in the world. The trouble in South Africa is that while that football is being kicked around the political field, the NP continually changes the rules of the game to suit themselves. It certainly helps to keep everyone guessing, but it does nothing to help end our isolation in international sport.

On a totally different tack, there is one other point I wish to raise which is unrelated to sport and in fact has to do with the South African Library. This library received very few donations from the private sector during the course of last year and the library has in fact identified two main reasons as to why they have failed in recent years to attract more substantial funds from that sector: Firstly, the fact that there is no tax relief on donations to the national library; and secondly, the hefty import surcharge on library material older that 100 years, which is fact is little more than a tax of 60% on private donations towards cultural information collections belonging to the State. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, while the National Policy for General Education Affairs Act—Act 76 of 1984—applies to everyone in South Africa, the provision of education for all races is still continued in the fragmented own affairs system.

I am mindful of the tremendous problems inherited by the hon the Minister and his office because I serve on the Joint Committee on Education. I am appreciative of the fact that the challenges need to be faced.

Here I want to comment on reform in rural education. Four years ago rural education was the responsibility of the farm employer. Today rural education has been taken over by the State.

The second point is the training of teaching personnel. Four years ago at least 80% of the teachers—I am referring to the Black teachers— were non-matriculants. However, through intensive training and extra-mural classes the position has improved greatly and I believe at least 50% now have matriculation.

The hon the Minister and his department also embarked on a literacy programme, a programme whereby women farm labourers are taught to read and write on the pupil-teacher-system. All these things are acknowledged as reforms in the right direction.

There is also reform on the tertiary level. The lower levels of education—I am talking about the primary and secondary levels—have historical patterns which continue to flourish and develop. At the end of the day those people who pass out on the tertiary level have to work together and this leads to mistrust because for the first time they are in an environment where there is an association with people of colour. Throughout the formative years at the primary and secondary level people of colour have been denied this associated learning. So they meet as strangers.

Having said that, I wish to comment on technikons. Technikons produce the artisans, the men who man the factories, the production lines, and so forth. It is my honest desire that all technikons should be open to all people in South Africa.

There is a peculiar problem in Durban. We have two separate technikons in Durban within walking distance of each other— the Natal Technikon and the M L Sultan Technikon. Here is a wonderful opportunity to combine these two institutions to the mutual advantage of students and teaching personnel. Courses in certain fields of study that are not offered for want of an economic class unit can be combined to the advantage of both the students and the teaching personnel.

Moreover, both these institutions prepare students for a common labour market. Information has it that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Assembly—may I say the good hon Minister of Education and Culture—has had exploratory talks with the principals of White technikons with a view to formulating a policy for the admission of students of colour. I can only hope and pray that the results will be fruitful and in keeping with the provisions and the new spirit of South Africa for 1989.

Whenever planning is done on a student distribution basis one takes into account classrooms, the teaching personnel and the number of students in a certain area. However, Sir, according to reports, I notice that in 1986 there were 19 technical colleges for Blacks, seven for Coloureds, two for Indians and 72 for Whites. I hope the figure of 72 reflects some type of typographical error, but I do believe that this is indeed the right number.

Now I ask the good hon Minister if this is the full distribution of facilities for technical colleges for all races.

Next I come the the topic of sport. Throughout the world sport binds people, nations and countries together. It is an international brotherhood. We have seen the disastrous consequences of segregation in sport, and I am pleased to be able to say that it is on its way out.

Not so very long ago when a visiting team from abroad came to South Africa—I think it was a team from the West Indies— the majority of the non-White fans applauded and shouted for a foreign-team victory. This appeared to me to be very strange. I am a South African. I must be a patriot, and I cannot support a foreign team. The converse of my belief, however, was the result in that particular instance. I ask: where else in the world does such unpatriotic applause prevail? The answer is simple. Discriminatory practices that have been meted out over so many years to the non-White sportsmen and spectators are now beginning to cause them to express their feelings. It is my hope that this will be part of history South Africans will wish to forget.

And what of the future? South Africans, in a non-discriminating South Africa, will applaud their own country’s teams with patriotism and enthusiasm.

Mr Chairman, I listened with interest to the previous speaker, and I shall be dealing with aspects of what he said a little later in my speech.

At the outset I wish to align myself with certain comments and criticisms that have been made in regard to the fact that there are some 250 000 vacancies at White schools which have not been taken up and to which other race groups do not have access. I believe this is morally wrong and that serious attention should be given to this specific aspect, particularly in certain schools in the rural areas.

I was deeply concerned that the hon the Minister, in his statement yesterday, indicated that the ten-year plan was in jeopardy. I do want to stress that it is absolutely important that this plan is not allowed to founder.

Expectations have been aroused and commitments have been made which must be respected. I think that it is pertinent that the private sector should be called upon to have a greater involvement in order that this 10-year plan can come to fruition as and when it is due. This, however, makes one point very clear and that is that capital expenditure in this country must be confined to essentials until such time that the economy improves.

I listened with interest to certain references made by previous hon speakers in regard to sport and segregation in sport. I also want to draw attention to the fact that promises have been made at international conferences which have not been honoured. I have great scepticism in regard to running to the ANC to try to solve the problems of sport in this country. [Interjections.] Those problems, I feel, must be resolved within this country. [Interjections.]

I consider it relevant that one should use this opportunity to refer to the tragedy that took place last Saturday during the FA Cup semi-final at the Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield which involved so much loss of life. There are lessons to be learned from this bitter experience. While generally speaking the stadiums in this country are considered to be safe under normal circumstances, I would point out that this must not necessarily be the criterion by which safety standards are assessed in that tragedies of this nature invariably occur as a result of mob misbehaviour or mob hysteria. An aspect that requires the immediate attention of all sport organisations is whether effective crowd control measures exist at all access points to and from the main venues.

I wish to raise a matter which will become increasingly relevant as reform in this country gradually unwinds. I want to suggest to the hon the Minister that greater attention must be given to encourage the teaching of a Black or ethnic language as a subject in school syllabi and curricula. [Interjections.]

The emphasis on the need for the teaching of the two official languages, English and Afrikaans, needs no amplification beyond stressing the fact that bilingualism offers the best means of any one group acquiring an appreciation of the philosophies and culture of the other. I wish to stress that this is equally applicable in relation to ethnic groups whose attitudes and philosophies cannot be fully appreciated by those who have no knowledge of the language involved. I know that there are members in this Committee who appreciate what I mean.

Communication or the ability to communicate, as we well know, is a vital link in any negotiation process, and while we are living in an area of negotiations, South Africans as a whole are aware of the fact that this process offers the only responsible solution to peaceful change in this country. One would ask what better means exist to win the respect and trust within our heterogeneous society than through this common factor, what better means of creating a better understanding. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, allow me to comment briefly on some of the hon members’ speeches.

I want to say to the hon members for Stellenbosch and Kempton Park that I understand and appreciate the arguments which the hon members put forward in support of the fact that all schools cannot be opened to all race groups. I am convinced, however, that the reasons which they put forward are the most irresponsible and unfounded reasons which I listened to yesterday in this House.

I want to say to the hon member for Stellenbosch that we are not living in the United States of America. Solutions to USA problems are therefore not always applicable to South Africa. [Interjections.]

I further want to say to the hon member for Kempton Park that, while I acknowledge that White families and the White community took a great deal of trouble to place White education where it is today, we on the other side of the colour bar are most aware of the fact that they, aside from their trouble, had yet another big helping hand in the form of the NP Government. If it had not been there, that hon member could not have spoken as she spoke here yesterday. [Interjections.] My total impression of that hon member was that she sounded very accomplished. I do not want to be disparaging but she sounded more like a “Janie-know-all” to me.

†I would like to say to the hon member for Allandale, although he is not here today, that there is no doubt in my mind that one day that Black majority will rule in and govern South Africa. [Interjections.] It is just a question of time. On our way home in the bus yesterday, one elderly parliamentarian referred scathingly to the Nats as thick-skinned parliamentarians. It shocked me to the core to hear him say that. He is firmly of the opinion that the Nats do not wish to know or want to see the truth. They are like the Israelites in the days of Moses—a stubborn White tribe in Africa. I want to liken the reign of the Nats to the reign of Belshazzar. Perhaps the Lord has led me to say this to hon members. They will only get a rude awakening when they actually see the hand of God writing on the walls of Parliament the words “Mene mene tekel ufarsin”. Then it will be too late.

And we are the Christians!

Thank you! The hon member for Germiston could not have been more erroneous in his statements when he referred to those intellectuals who emigrate from South Africa as people who take the NP’s money. He is implying that we who are sitting here in Parliament are also taking the NP’s money.

It is the taxpayers’ money!

It is good that that hon member says it is the taxpayers’ money because if it were the Nats who were paying us, I would be the first to resign from Parliament.

I further fully endorse what the hon member for Springfield had to say about emigration from South Africa.

*If there are people in this country who attach a great deal of value to education, they are the people who have been robbed politically, economically and socially by apartheid. Unfortunately we are still saddled with apartheid. To face hard facts is to admit that those people are prepared to pay any price in order to ensure a good education for their children. We have proof of this because they were even prepared to pay the highest price in 1976 and they are still prepared to do so. If they were people who were prepared to go a long way and are still prepared to do so, just to give their children the best education, then we were the ones— the Black people of this country.

Our people had to put up with a great deal, excercise a great deal of patience and swallow a great deal, even our pride and human dignity, while an education system which we found repulsive was forced down our throats willy-nilly. I want to state unequivocally to the Government and I want them to take note of the fact that the LP rejects own affairs. [Interjections.] Own affairs remains a form of apartheid. In our community the LP is known as the apartheid avengers. We of the LP regard all national affairs as general affairs.

We accepted different education systems merely to preserve peace in the country because we are peace-loving people by nature. We also accepted them out of respect because our forefathers taught us as children that education was a godlike institution. It comes from the hand of the Almighty Teacher. This is why we received our education with love and humility. In passing I want to pause for a moment and pay tribute to those parents who during those cold winter seasons sometimes had to clothe their nakedness inadequately so that their children’s bodies could be warmly dressed. On behalf of all the oppressed and lesser privileged of this country I want to express our sincere thanks to the numbers of former teachers—there are many of them—who sometimes had to put their hands deep into their own pockets to cover the constructive contributions which they made and which in my opinion cannot be measured in terms of money.

†With reference to the Department of National Education’s Annual Report for 1988, I am reminded of a portion of scripture that says: “Withhold not good from them to whom it is due.” Personally, I am immensely impressed by this report. It makes mention on page 8 of the President’s Council’s report on the youth of South Africa. While we appreciate the sincerity on the part of the Government to address a national youth strategy in this report, I wish to highlight one aspect of the President’s Council’s report which to my mind has serious and far-reaching implications. Recommendation 13 on page 108 of the President’s Council’s report states, inter alia:

I do not wish to define “diensplig” to hon members of this Parliament. The whole issue of “diensplig” is a highly contentious one. I do believe that it is in direct conflict with the policies of the political parties in both the Houses of Representatives and Delegates. The fact that a state of emergency has been declared and restrictions imposed on the freedom of the Press, that Blacks do not have an equal and equivalent vote, that education is an own affair issue which further entrenches apartheid make us in the LP believe that we live in an abnormal society. Though we believe that it is every citizen’s patriotic duty to defend the fatherland, defending also entails a common, shared value system. In the full sense word this means one nation, one South Africa, no more and no less.

*I do not know how much time I have left to speak. The hon the Minister decided in 1981 or 1987 to abolish the National Advisory Council on Libraries and Information. I hope that other hon Ministers in the House of Assembly will follow this hon Minister’s lead and also get rid of all those other unnecessary Afrikaner councils, as I call them. I am pleased with the report which was finalised and issued in 1988 on the structures of the SA Library and Information Services. It is also pleasing to hear that the South African system for library and information services is a self-regulatory one which functions like a free-market economy.

†I want to appeal to the hon the Minister that all schools in South Africa should be opened to all race groups, not because people in other countries wish it so, and not because the laws of God command us to do so.

We must do it for the basic, simple and fundamental reason that it is the right thing to do. We must also do it to allay White fears of Black aspirations because togetherness is the solution to apartheid.

*While I understand and appreciate what is to be found in the Annual Report of the Department of National Education on sport and recreation, I have no sympathy with the vast majority of White voters in this country who voted for apartheid and partition. My sympathy lies with Black sportsmen and sportswomen who have to suffer as a result of apartheid. Those White voters who voted for apartheid or partition got it and it is what they deserve. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I shall refer to several remarks made by the hon member for Alra Park later on in my speech.

Education is concerned with the formation of the person as a whole, the eventual humanity of every child, the child’s overall integration into its community and the way in which the child fits into the broader national context. This implies dealing with education in such a responsible manner that its most important component, namely the child, does not get hurt.

The child must never be the victim of unstructured education. In some statements, particularly politically inspired statements, it would appear that the child is not taken into account at all. The child is either ignored or becomes a pawn that is shifted around for purposes other than teaching and education as such, and this occurs to such an extent that he is eventually maladjusted in his own society. This is particularly the case in South Africa with its diversity of communities. Politics puts our children through the mill.

In its investigation the HSRC found, inter alia, that in respect of educational planning, both centralisation and decentralisation had to be accommodated. This was a scientific investigation. It recognises two important elements in the South Africa set-up, namely a certain sense of community on the one hand, but also the diversity of the population of South Africa on the other.

This is a reality. It exists and it is there. It cannot be wished away. We can superficially debate that it does not exist or we can approach it unilaterally. The fact of the matter however—and nobody can get away from this—is that there are certain aspects relating to the concept of community that must be dealt with, but there is also a diversity of communities whose needs must be met.

This was pinpointed by the HSRC on scientific grounds, and I just want to dwell on that for a moment. Let us first have a brief look at the relevant directive of the Cabinet to the HSRC in 1980. Even in the wording of the directive the concepts of both distinctiveness and commonality are accommodated. Firstly the potential of all the inhabitants of the Republic must be realised; secondly economic growth in the RSA must be promoted; and thirdly the quality of life of all the inhabitants in the country must be advanced.

Taking this into consideration, the HSRC ultimately found that there was an extensive and significant inequality in the provision of education for the various population groups. This is an additional factor to be taken into consideration. Nobody can argue about this, because it exists. People cannot shrug their shoulders and say: “What can we do about this now?”

The HSRC also recommended a new educational dispensation aimed at the progressive implementation of the principle of equal educational opportunities, including the pursuit of equal standards of education for all inhabitants.

It is this principle which was accepted by the Government and to which the NP committed itself. It was clearly spelt out in the interim memorandum of 1981 and also in the White Paper on the Provision of Education in the RSA of 1983. It was also incorporated in the National Policy for General Education Affairs Act, No 76 of 1984.

In terms of that we said there were specific inequalities which had to be dealt with, but we also said that the determination of certain norms and standards affected everyone. There cannot be a separate set of rules for each of the population groups with regard to salaries and conditions of service, for example, or with regard to norms and standards for examination and certification. It would surely be absurd to try to draw a distinction in this regard. The NP will specifically continue to implement this principle.

How?

I am coming to the “how”. The success of this is going to depend, in the first place, on our willingness to accommodate these efforts. Secondly we shall have to find the answer in the context of what is affordable, and this is the most important question which will have to be answered in the future.

Education is not cheap. Nor can it be bought in a pawn shop or in the market-place. It is expensive and makes almost superhuman demands on the Exchequer. There is, however, no simple way to offer education more cheaply, and it is going to become increasingly expensive in the future. Yesterday’s announcement by the hon the Minister about the implementation of the 10-year plan not progressing as desired is, of course, not a pleasant one. It is an announcement that we accepted with disappointment. We would have preferred a different situation. The reality of the economic climate and economic growth that has not been realised should, however, be taken into consideration. We cannot negate it. The fact that the economy has not shown the expected growth is certainly not the hon the Minister’s fault. If it had depended on him, he would have wanted something different.

Is FW blaming Barend again?

In reaction to that interjection by the hon member for Losberg let me say that it is totally naive simply to blame the Government for the weak economy, as the hon member for Potgietersrus said yesterday, something to which the hon member for Losberg has just referred so facetiously.

The demands on the Exchequer remain severe and will increase. The opposition no doubt takes great pleasure in demanding that more money be spent on education without having to be responsible for where the funds come from. The financial cake is only so big. The only way we can make that cake bigger is to generate more revenue. Growth has the ability to do this. If it is not enough, there is only one alternative, and that is increased taxation. But it is the opposition’s prerogative to be totally inconsistent in the search for solutions. It is wonderfully easy to ask for greater expenditure, while at the same time opposing an increase in taxation.

I want to congratulate the hon the Minister on having succeeded in obtaining such a significant part of the overall budget for education. The fact that 6,1% of the GDP is already being spent on education, speaks volumes. I want to thank the hon the Minister for having done his utmost in negotiating the best possible deal for education in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, to begin with, I want to sincerely thank all hon members who participated in this debate. In general, constructive contributions were made. With the few exceptions of members who were entirely negative, we can look back on a debate in which we penetrated to the heart of very important matters.

I want to convey my sincere thanks to the hon member for Gezina for his elucidation and support. We also thank him for having so nicely exposed the opportunism of the DP in particular, with regard to the financing of education. Apparently they are already fighting an election and are promising everyone the earth without explaining where that earth will come from and who will pay for it.

Before I react to individual hon members, I would like to identify a few themes which recurred quite frequently throughout the debate and react briefly to hon members’ contributions in this regard.

The hon members for Berg River, Mamre, Cavendish and Merebank all made an appeal with regard to the importance of education in the promoting of inter-group relations. The hon members presented their appeals in a responsible and well-argued way and I would like to react constructively to them.

Firstly, I want to emphasize the necessity of the promotion of sound inter-group relations in our country. A shared destiny makes it essential that we should find one another. The vast majority of South Africans agree on this. The CP is a small minority who want to seek their destiny alone and who think that the interwoven interests of all the people in this country can be disentangled and disconnected. Only Prof Boshoff is intellectually honest when he admits the truth of what I have just said. He says that if there are Whites who want to seek their destiny elsewhere, it will have to be elsewhere—it cannot be where all the people of South Africa are living at present.

Healthy inter-group relations are, in the first place, the responsibility of every individual in our country. Occasions on which we mix with one another spontaneously and in a natural way, are of the utmost importance in this process. It is on such occasions that we can develop and show mutual understanding, respect and appreciation for one another. Of course, education has a role to play in the promotion of good relations in our country. However, I do not think it has a unique or a dominant role to play.

†Education can and is already making an important contribution. However, experience in other countries overseas has proved that using education as a convenient vehicle to achieve healthy group relations, if not handled properly, can backfire sadly. The reason for this is not hard to find. Real communication and meaningful interaction cannot be inspired artificially, neither can it be attained through mandatory measures and enforced integration as has been tried in other countries.

We have already established a framework for the spontaneous fostering of good relations in the field of education. This framework is embodied in the eleven principles enunciated in the National Policy for General Education Affairs Act of 1984 within which general policy has to be formulated. The whole tone of these principles is one of acceptance of that which is common amongst us while not disclaiming diversity.

Furthermore, the Constitution Act provides for the rendering of services from one population group to another. In education this provision has been of value in promoting goodwill and understanding amongst one another. Quite often there is interaction between departments. Help is rendered, knowledge is shared and programmes are being made available across lines from one department to the other. I am also aware of initiatives which are taken by all our education departments and the private sector to broaden the base of interaction and communication also at school level.

Furthermore, the South African Council of Education launched an investigation into pre-tertiary educational programmes in 1988. The recommendations in the ensuing report contained guidelines for the adaptation of general policy on syllabuses. After wide consultation these guidelines were accepted by the education Ministers.

Amongst other things, these guidelines clearly spell out the need for the inculcation of certain values and the development of certain attitudes in pupils—values and attitudes such as respect and regard for all people and cultures and for their individual uniqueness and dignity. Values and attitudes such as the appreciation of man’s cultural creations in the widest sense and respect for civilized human behaviour and personal integrity should be fostered.

Clearly such values and attitudes are crucial for healthy relationships. Merely forcing people together in the hope of achieving sound relationships does not deal with the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter concerns the values and attitudes which we and our children have. This is where education should play its constructive role. Such an approach is not merely cosmetic, neither is it artificial.

I believe that this is the point where we should start and I am happy to be able to tell hon members, as I explained earlier, that we have already started in this regard.

*Another theme which was mentioned was the question of the subsidy formula. Hon members said that a new subsidy formula should be negotiated. In this regard as well, the hon members for Berg River, Pinetown, Allandale and Mamre put questions with regard to various aspects of the subsidy formula for schools and education college sectors. Some of these hon members accused me of having implemented these subsidy formulae without any negotiation. Furthermore, it was suggested that specific education departments were now in a worse position than before as a result of this formula.

With regard to negotiation, I want to emphasize that all statutory requirements have already been met for the implementation of the particular subsidy formula. This includes the liaison with my education colleagues and the South African Council for Education. The organised education profession is represented by the SATC. I have also already obtained the approval of the hon the Minister of Finance and have given specific information with regard to the subsidy formula to the organised education profession.

Because the subsidy formula is such a sensitive matter, I even went further than legislation required in order to announce the subsidy formula as general policy. I sought the advice of the Committee of Heads of Education. I entered into negotiations with the State President’s committee on national priorities, as well as with the hon the Minister of Finance, with regard to the implementation of the subsidy formula. Furthermore, I undertook—I will do this—to inform the Joint Committee on Education in this regard.

The fact that the subsidy formula has not yet been declared general policy is merely a result of the fact that economic uncertainties are at present complicating the planning with regard to the phasing-in of the formula. It would be irresponsible of the Government to implement a subsidy formula of which the long-term financial implications have not been reconciled with the financial capacity of the country.

Hon members can draw two conclusions from this. The first is that I went out of my way to negotiate. I negotiated across a far wider spectrum than is prescribed by legislation. The second one is that the Government regards the implementation of the subsidy formula as a sensitive matter, which must be approached circumspectly. The fact that the Government does not want to implement a formula over-hastily without first taking the practical implementation of the formula into account is an indication of the responsible approach and sincere intentions of the Government with regard to education financing.

I do not want to go into the technical aspects of the subsidy formula in this committee. However, certain misconceptions exist among hon members with regard to how the formula works, which I want to correct. For example, it was alleged that the subsidy formula did not compensate the education departments for inflation. That is not true. The subsidy formula was developed in order to compensate fully for the most important facets of education inflation in a scientific way. That includes the inflation of salaries of education personnel.

Recently, for example, education departments were fully compensated for the effects of the latest salary adjustments of education personnel.

Neither is it true that the formula does not compensate for the elimination of backlogs. It can, in fact, be used for this purpose. However, the total funds available for education make it senseless, in the first instance, to talk about the eliminating of backlogs if the demand for facilities for pupils who are just entering the education system can hardly be met. Our first priority is therefore to prevent the development of further backlogs.

Having done that, additional funds can be used to eliminate existing backlogs. In recent years, more or less at the time when the 10-year plan was announced, there was an opportunity in which we were able to negotiate an adequate real increase, and which, for example, made considerable amounts of money available to my colleague in Black education, which he was able to put to good use.

That brings me to an important misconception with regard to the subsidy formula which exists in the minds of certain hon members. The allegation was made that the education department, as a result of the subsidy formula, was now receiving relatively fewer funds than was the case earlier. I want to state categorically today that the financial pressure on education departments has nothing to do with the existence of a formula. This pressure is the direct result of both the marginal growth in the economy and the rapid expansion of the education system. At the moment, the subsidy formula is only being used as a mechanism to distribute funds which are available for education. What is more, is that it provides criteria in terms of which backlogs can be quantified. The formula was also not developed to entrench inequalities in the provision of resources; it was developed as a means to assist the Government in the implementation of its commitment to equal education opportunities and standards for everyone. We will therefore be misleading ourselves and others if we blame the formula for everything which is wrong in education, when the cause of our education financing problems lies elsewhere. For that reason I placed great emphasis yesterday on the fact that the most important solution to this problem lay in more funds for education, which could generate a more vital economy.

†I would also like to draw the attention of the hon members for Pinetown, Cape Town Gardens and Durban North to the fact that I did not for one moment suggest that the 10-year plan was dead or abandoned. [Interjections.] If those hon members say that, it is pure DP propaganda. I emphasised the fact that the negotiations regarding the 10-year plan had become very difficult indeed due to economic circumstances. The intentions and objectives of the Government in respect of attaining equal education opportunities including equal standards of education for all are alive and well.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

No, Sir. My time is limited and I still have many hon members to respond to.

What has happened is that the negotiations regarding the 10-year plan have been put on hold, they have not been discontinued.

For 100 years?

No, the economy will not take 100 years to start growing effectively because, inter alia, of the steps that the Government is taking. I take a positive view of the economic future of this country. [Interjections.] I say that negotiations with regard to the 10-year plan have not been discontinued. The focus of our attention has, however, shifted for the time being from long and medium term strategies to relatively short-term strategies because of economic realities. Long and medium-term planning remains an essential ingredient of our strategy for the future.

Yesterday the hon member for Pinetown expressed doubt as to whether any progress had been made since 1986 in attaining the objective of equal educational opportunities and standards for all. I can assure the hon member that definite progress was made initially but that economic difficulties have since temporarily halted the process. [Interjections.]

*The following theme dealt with the question of a single education system. Yesterday, the hon members for Mamre and Pinetown paved the way for this, and according to the hon members our present system falls short of this. The hon member for Grassy Park also associated himself with this from a different angle, as did the hon member for Bokkeveld. Firstly, I want to emphasise that we already have a single education system in South Africa. It is a system which is characterised by aspects of both centralisation and decentralisation. That is not an unusual phenomenon. Examples of education systems which are strongly centralised, and others which are strongly decentralised, are readily available. For example, France has a strongly centralised system. West Germany, on the other hand, has a strongly decentralised system. Each of the 11 Lander have their own autonomous education authority. They do not have an umbrella department.

†The hon members will admit that West Germany is a more homogeneous country than ours. They all speak one language. They share a long and common history and they have a common culture. In South Africa things are not that simple. The people of South Africa do indeed have much in common. Equally so our diversity is a mighty factor. This cannot be denied. I would like to point out that we have gone much further than a country such as West Germany. We have a general policy department— the Department of National Education—and West Germany does not. It is this policy department which is responsible for the handling of that which is common to our education system—a general financing policy and a general policy of syllabuses and for the conditions of service of all educators. This policy applies to everyone in South Africa. This policy does not recognise colour, creed or race.

Except in money.

In this way provision is made for the necessary cohesion in our education system.

*That means—hon members do not have to agree with the system—that we do in fact have one education system which is bound by common policy. At the same time, however, we provide for the specific needs of the various population groups in our country. In this way, provision is made for both the communal nature and the diversity of our country.

†Much reference was made to the underutilisation of educational facilities. I do not control any specific educational facility and therefore it does not fall under me directly.

It is a fact that there are educational facilities which are at present underutilised. The reasons for this mainly stem from complex historical factors. The use of underutilised educational facilities of one education department by another is also a sensitive matter fraught with practical difficulties. I have been informed by my education colleagues that the future utilisation of such facilities is being investigated at present and that certain arrangements in this regard have already been concluded in some cases.

*The right way to deal with facilities which become available, and schools which are closed, is by means of negotiation and discussion between the education Ministers concerned.

That does not help us at all!

A very good spirit prevails in the Committee of Ministers of Education Ministers. I am convinced that by means of negotiation and discussion certain facilities which become available, will be placed at the disposal of other population groups if proper arrangements are made. The throwing open of everything is not the instant solution which hon members would like it to be.

We did not say that!

In previous years we had fundamental debates and I do not want to repeat that debate today with regard to the philosophical difference between those of us in the NP and those who have a different standpoint with regard to open schools.

The rest of the world!

No, not the rest of the world. Where it was enforced, it did not work. [Interjections.] In South Africa an option is built in as well. Besides the concept of separate Government schools, we encourage, and this is also the policy of the Government, the development and the establishment of private schools on the basis of free enterprises, in order to provide an option.

Why not optional State schools?

What I want to say in this regard is that the throwing open of schools—if that were to be decided—will not solve the fundamental problem in education, particularly not with regard to the Black people.

A number of individuals will possibly benefit from it, but it will not make a dent in the underlying problem of the masses. No one can argue the educational truth of what I am saying here.

More than 10%! [Interjections.]

That is why I say it is not an instant solution. We differ in essence in that regard, and we can talk about it for as long as we like; the crux of the matter is that we will have to pay urgent attention to the providing of the highest possible attainable standard of education for everyone. [Interjections.] It is possible. I have in my hand the Carnegie report on education and the poor Whites. It dates back 60 years. It is history. Nevertheless, it is history which proves certain things. There are hon members who say how wonderful White education is. I just want to mention a single figure from this report to hon members.

At that time—1930—an average of 44% of all teachers in the White education system did not have matric. That was still the case as recently as 1930.

That is a long time ago!

Just look at what has been achieved! And what has been achieved in White education, can be achieved in all education systems. It is attainable with the necessary dedication and the necessary hard work.

With the necessary opportunities, yes!

With the necessary availability ceilings. [Interjections.]

Order! I am not going to allow so many interjections to be made. This is not a discussion. The hon the Minister is giving his reply, and I expect hon members to hear him in silence. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Thank you, Sir. I do not blame the hon member Mr Douw for interjecting in that way. They did not give him an opportunity to speak. [Interjections.] That is why he is making so many interjections now. He should speak to his Whips. [Interjections.]

And how I pleaded for an opportunity to speak! [Interjections.]

We will succeed with the necessary funds and the will which we all have, and with the dedication to the ideal that we must achieve this. It will take time, but we must not be discouraged.

The hon member for Bokkeveld—while I am on the subject—also spoke about computer coordination. We engaged in extensive consultation with the Committee of Ministers of Education. I would have liked to see better coordination than we have at the moment, but it seems that this is not entirely possible owing to the fact that investments have already been made, and because needs also differ etc, the Ministers of Education agreed that within the framework of co-ordination which has been established, they would rather that every education department determined its own priorities, precisely because needs differ.

Another theme—this was the theme of the opposition parties in particular—was the accusation that was levelled at me by inter alia the hon member for Pinetown, the hon member for Potgietersrus and the hon member for Springfield to the effect that I, and also my department, had failed. In their opinion, nothing significant has been achieved in the field of general education policy during the past few years.

I am not saying this to defend myself, but I think that the country should know that this is an unfounded and irresponsible statement. I want to venture to say that the Department of National Education, since it came into being a few years ago, has already moved mountains.

†In my introductory speech I indicated that financing formulae had been developed for universities and technikons, and that those had been announced as general policies. That represents a major innovation. I also indicated that we had already dealt with similar formulae developed for the remainder of our educational system. Those formulae are also already in use as a frame of reference. They have been in use since 1987.

Furthermore, a subsidy basis for private schools was developed. These schools are presently subsidised according to this general policy and have a much better deal in three of the four provinces than they had before.

*Much has been achieved in the field of education programmes as well. General policy with regard to a qualification structure for universities and technikons was announced. In this policy the requirements of education programmes at tertiary level are clearly set out. It plays an important ordering role in the education programmes of those institutions.

A similar policy for pre-tertiary education is in its final stage of disposal and I expect that it will be announced soon.

On the grounds of an inquiry by SACE, guidelines, on which amendments of this policy could be based, were accepted in 1988. The South African Council for Education considered various other matters of great importance. The abovementioned subsidy formulae were reviewed by them and advice was given to me in that regard. Furthermore, SACE recently considered an educational structure for South Africa and made recommendations to me. It is presently being considered.

The South African Certification Council and the Certification Council for Technikon Education were established. The one was established with a view to pre-tertiary level and the other for technikon education. Both councils are going to play a decisive role in our education system. The councils have already held various meetings. I can inform hon members—there were questions in this regard as well—that I recently approved the appointment of the executive officers of the two councils. This means that they are now able to begin functioning with might and main.

It is about time!

Apart from this, general policy concerning conditions of service has already been determined. One of the most important aspects of this policy has been the elimination of all salary-related disparities among educators in the various population groups. [Interjections.] This policy is under constant review to keep pace with changing circumstances.

Hear, hear!

Now the hon member says “Hear, hear!” but yesterday he said we had done nothing in five years!

It took you three years! [Interjections.]

So underlying all this developmental work and the eventual formulation of general policy, is a unique and extensive information system for the various educational institutions which has been developed. This makes the continual monitoring of the general policy possible.

Obviously my department and I have not been twiddling our thumbs. Education is far too important for us. I am proud of what has been achieved within the framework of constraints imposed by factors beyond our control. Without claiming perfection, I reject the accusation of failure as being totally unfounded. [Interjections.]

*Earlier, the hon member for Brits attacked certain universities. He accused them of not exercising their autonomy responsibly and said that this had led to incidents of unrest which were not being adequately counteracted.

I agree with the hon member that undesirable conditions exist on certain campuses. We did not need him to motivate us to take the initiative in that regard. We took the initiative of our own accord. [Interjections.] I can also inform hon members that that initiative is still under way. However, it is not being done in the forceful way that the CP wishes to do things in order to make an impression. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Stellenbosch has already reacted to this, and I want to associate myself with him. The Government remains committed to maintaining the autonomy of universities, which the hon member is prepared to override!

I said that as well!

Of course, it is not an unlimited autonomy! The universities understand that. They are under the management of a responsible board and must also answer to the community.

However, universities function best in an atmosphere of minimum interference and regulation on the part of the State. For that reason it is to everyone’s advantage that universities should be able to function with a minimum of prescriptiveness.

… and allow them to send students to the ANC!

The Government has a high regard for the role and contribution of the university in our society. What did that hon member say? He said that the university sends its students to talk to the ANC. [Interjections.] That is how CP propaganda works! That is what the hon member said! [Interjections.] The CPs twist every single truth so that a distorted version emerges.

I said that they were allowed to send them! [Interjections.]

I am saying that universities function best in an atmosphere of minimum interference and regulation. It is to the advantage of all of us that we have very little prescriptiveness. We have a high regard for the role and contribution of the university in our society.

Confrontation with universities is to no one’s advantage. History has shown that in a confrontation between the State and the university, there has never been a winner; only losers.

With regard to the unrest on campuses, the Government remains committed to the realisation of four objectives, namely the uninterrupted and undisturbed teaching of and study by students; the functional, constructive and educationally answerable utilisation of the taxpayers’ money; the maintaining of the traditional academic values and standards of the universities; and the enforcement of effective measures to maintain good order and discipline in order to realise these objectives.

We will not neglect our responsibility towards the taxpayer in this regard. The universities must realise that.

What about the University of the Western Cape?

For that reason we made certain proposals to the universities. These were proposals which would not make unnecessary inroads into their autonomy. This was done in response to court judgments which declared the imposition of conditions for subsidisation invalid. We have now received the comments from the universities with regard to these proposals and they will be considered soon by the hon Ministers who are responsible for education. I can inform hon members that the reaction to those proposals was, in general, of such a nature that I am convinced that the State and most universities will be able to reach an agreement with regard to this matter.

With regard to illegal activities on campuses, the SAP does not hesitate to take action. [Interjections.] It is not my work to follow up the breaking of the law. That is the work of the Police. We have a proper distribution of work. If it is necessary, they do not hesitate to take action. If I remember correctly, they carried out a raid on the campus of the University of the Western Cape in December or January. [Interjections.] No, the image which that hon member is trying to project, namely that those of us in the NP are neglecting our duty in this regard, is devoid of all truth.

I would like to endorse the view of the hon member Mrs Jager, with regard to the necessity of high quality university instruction and research. She made a well-thought-out contribution in this regard. [Interjections.] We also believe that a university’s role in the field of instruction and research is essential.

An inquiry was ordered into academic standards at universities and this inquiry was undertaken last year. The recommendations of that commission of inquiry were aimed mainly at the improving of the quality of lecturers. In this way the quality of instruction and research will also be improved. Those recommendations are being implemented at the moment. I can also inform the hon member that during this inquiry the possibility of accreditation mechanisms for university programmes was also considered. Specific recommendations are at present being considered by the Committee of University Principals. I am convinced that the inquiry and its results will make a considerable contribution towards enabling our universities to maintain their already excellent reputations as institutions of high repute.

†The hon member for Germiston touched upon a very real problem, a problem which is not confined to medical practitioners. Other high-level professions, such as engineers, accountants and academics are also experiencing an alarming loss of manpower to other countries. He correctly pointed out that the cost of training students for these professions is high.

It is clear that the taxpayer is making a major investment in the training of such students. He makes this investment as the training of such professionals eventually yields benefits for him, the community and the country. It is, however, equally clear that if these benefits do not materialise because such a person leaves the country, the taxpayer in principle has a right to recover his investment.

It is a difficult problem to solve. The Government respects the individual’s freedom of movement but it does, on the other hand, have a responsibility towards the taxpayer. Solutions will have to be found. Some time ago I instructed my department to make proposals to me.

Let us air a few alternatives. One alternative would be to recover the taxpayer’s contribution to the training of students who emigrate shortly after completion of their studies, fully from such students. I want to emphasise that such steps, if decided upon, will not be aimed at students from abroad studying in the Republic of South Africa.

It is essential that international interaction in the field of tertiary study takes place. It is equally important for the Republic that our students are granted opportunities to study abroad.

*The matter of possible study loan schemes, which was mentioned by the hon member for Stellenbosch, certainly also ties up with the search for possible solutions to the problem. It is a meaningful proposal and alternative, and I would like to inform him that the Universities and Technikons Advisory Council is already investigating this possibility. I hope to receive their advice in that regard one of these days.

I would like to thank the hon members for Bloemfontein East and Esselen Park, who focused the spotlight on the importance of techni-kon and technical college education. There are three reasons why the Government considers vocational education at technikons and technical colleges to be important, and why we promote it. Firstly, specific short-term requirements of trade and industry in terms of trained manpower at a high level must be met. Technikons provide a large number of people who are able to undertake specific tasks as soon as they have completed their studies, and this is also true of the technical colleges.

Secondly, the technikon provides for the tertiary education needs of people who are not interested in or who do not have the aptitude for general scientific formulation such as is offered at our universities. It is only right that practically orientated students should also be given the opportunity to fully develop their potential at tertiary level. The same goes for the technical colleges at pre-tertiary level. It is important that vocational education should become more accessible to pupils. For this reason, the SA Council for Education recommended that Std 4 and 7 should be defined as further stages at which pupils may leave the formal school system, and I will come to the concern of hon members in that regard, in a moment.

Finally, a strong vocational education system would ensure that our education system could develop in a balanced fashion. For that reason I want to thank the two hon members who placed the spotlight on this aspect. In response to the pattern which has appeared amongst the Whites, the hon member for Esselen Park said that there were too many students at the universities. I want to agree with him. For that reason we have that task group which came into being last year, and which is considering possible ways of dealing with this problem.

The hon member for Kempton Park spoke about semi-privatisation of education. Her speech, which was based on a thesis, was enlightening and I want to thank her for it. It is a topical matter. On the one hand one must concede that the privatisation action would have positive results, such as greater community involvement in education, and of course, also positive financial implications for the Treasury. On the other hand, there is the risk that the privatisation of schools could lead to incidents in which schools did not take the interests of the wider community into account in their provision of education. There is no doubt that semi-privatisation could make a contribution in the longer term. Whether or not it is wise to do so in a highly politicised climate, is another matter. As progress is made with regard to constitutional development, this can probably be looked into with positive results.

I want to thank the hon member Dr S G A Golden and the hon member for Sunnyside for their elucidation of important aspects of education outside my department’s field of responsibility, namely scientific councils, the arts and sport. I want to tell the hon member for Sunnyside that I share his indignation with regard to the unfair treatment which South Africa is receiving in the world of sport. Like him, I also support our sports administrators in their struggle against this, and I agree with him and with them that South Africa’s sport is not going to take that lying down. I want to say thank you to both these hon members for having so nicely elucidated the golden thread of a non-interference policy of the Government in areas such as art and sport.

†The hon member for Cape Town Gardens, apart from the other points to which I have already reacted, firstly referred to the problem of teachers resigning from their posts.

I share his concern, as does the Government. Within the framework of what is possible we regularly try to ensure that the remuneration package of the teaching profession is such that it is not a main reason for this.

If he had made this speech last year, however, I would have understood him better, but he made the speech months after educators had received an effective increase of 23%. I am in negotiation with the organised teaching profession, and we are constantly attending jointly to outstanding problems, which do exist. At this moment I am involved in negotiations to try to find ways and means to attend to those outstanding problems, but the way in which he dealt with this matter was irresponsible and clearly an engineering ploy. [Interjections.]

I therefore say that we must not politicise this problem. This Government has a record of being absolutely sensitive and, within the framework of what the country can afford, of attending to the pressing problems which do arise from time to time in the teaching profession. [Interjections.]

*Secondly, they spoke about the Std 4 exit point. The hon member for Cape Town Gardens is one of the DP’s chief spokesmen on education. He was shocked because I said this was being considered. I am shocked to hear that he was shocked. That he, as a chief spokesman, should have heard about this now for the first time, is absolutely inexplicable to me.

I didn’t say I was shocked.

He very nearly put it more forcefully. [Interjections.] The De Lange Report has already said that as a general pattern, Std 4 should be considered as a possible exit point; that is to say that it should be the end of compulsory school education, after which three years of further compulsory education, also non-formal and extra-mural, can take place.

†The whole point of introducing Std 4 as an exit point from the school system is to enable such pupils to obtain a recognised certificate before they exercise their choice perhaps to continue their education in a track such as vocational education which could be made more relevant for them. There is therefore nothing sinister in this and it is educationally sound.

Obviously, however, if that is introduced it would be a major reform, and we do not rush into major reforms. It will be properly discussed and negotiated before any such thing is implemented.

*The hon member for Durban North said, without mincing words, that he could understand sport boycotts against South Africa. In effect, he condoned them this afternoon.

Oh, rubbish! [Interjections.]

He said there was apartheid in sport, as if the Government prescribed to sport.

You were sitting right next to me, but you missed every word I said. [Interjections.]

Surely, we have recognised the autonomy of sporting bodies for years now. We do not manage their affairs for them. Sport manages its own affairs. We have a supportive and a helping role, but we are not prescriptive.

The hon member had much to say about what I said with regard to the visit of Drs Danie Craven and Louis Luyt to the ANC. His false argument suggests that because I reprimanded Dr Craven and adopted a standpoint in that regard which represented the standpoint of the vast majority of peace-loving people in this country, I was dragging politics into sport.

I now want to ask him what the ANC is in his opinion. [Interjections.] I spoke after Dr Craven had been to the ANC. Is the ANC a sports organisation? [Interjections.]

Why did you even raise it? [Interjections.]

Who dragged politics into rugby when the ANC was spoken to—me? Is the ANC a terrorist organisation? [Interjections.] The hon member must tell us. Two Western countries say yes. [Interjections.] That hon member stood here and from this podium supported a sports debate between South African sporting administrators and terrorist organisations. [Interjections.] We are glad that we know that according to the policy of the DP, it is right that South African sport seeks its safety with the ANC. [Interjections.]

The hon members of the CP did not utter a single positive word in this debate on any matter with regard to education or the activities of my department. They made no attempt to make a contribution from the point of view of cooperation towards solutions to the problems with which we are faced. They are not interested in the problems of South Africa. They are only interested in how they can get at the NP. [Interjections.]

Let us look at their solutions. What is their plan for education? I am now going to ask them. They tackle us because we stand for the provision of equal education. Does the CP stand for the continuation of unequal education provision ad infinitum? [Interjections.]

Give us the opportunity; then we will show you!

No, they have had plenty of opportunity to give us a vision for the future.

The issue is one of a unitary state …

Order! I just want to reconfirm my ruling. We are not going to allow a discussion here in the House. [Interjections.] That applies to the hon member for Brits as well.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Losberg said by way of an interjection that the issue was one of a unitary state. [Interjections.] It is that party’s policy to propose an Afrikaner unitary state. Is that correct?

Where is this place?

Fine, they admit … [Interjections.] … do they not stand for an Afrikaner unitary state?

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon the Minister is now provoking us to ignore the ruling.

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Mr Chairman, they admit that in that unitary state which they want for Whites only, Black, Coloured and Indian people will be living and working there all the time. They admit that; their chief spokesman does so as well. It is on record. They will therefore always have to have education systems within their White state which provide education to Coloured, Black and Indian people. Are they always going to be unequal? [Interjections.] They say that they stand for fairness. No, the approach of those hon members in terms of policy, is a recipe for chaos in Southern Africa. It is a recipe for the destruction of the stability of this country. [Interjections.] It is a recipe for the total isolation of South Africa. The CP is the greatest single threat to stability—just as much as any other threat from any other quarter is to South Africa. They are a dangerous party, which will send this country over a precipice. [Interjections.]

Old “Losbek”! [Interjections.]

I heard nothing in this entire debate which convinced me that …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member there referred to the hon member for Losberg as a “losbek”. [Interjections.]

Order! Did the hon member use that word?

I did, yes, Sir.

Order! The hon member must withdraw it.

I withdraw it, Sir. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, if my time had not nearly expired, I would quickly have mentioned a few parliamentary replacement words to show the truth of the statement in the interjection. [Interjections.]

Nothing in this debate has convinced me that there is well-founded criticism of the fact that the Department of National Education is dealing with an extremely difficult task with great responsibility.

Once again, thank you very much to all speakers who participated, and I want to conclude by once again thanking my head of department and his department for a year of hard work and dedicated service in which they did not spare themselves at any point.

Mr Chairman, I believe all hon members will agree with my taking this opportunity first of all to congratulate the new president of the South African Nursing Council whose appointment was announced today, Prof Wilna Kotze of the University of Port Elizabeth, on her appointment. Over the years we have built up a very good relationship with this Nursing Council and I believe that her appointment will cause that good relationship and pleasant co-operation to continue. Prof Kotze succeeds Miss Roscher.

I should also like to congratulate Prof Antoon Goosen of the Potchefstroomse Universiteit vir Christelike Hoër Onderwys on his recent appointment as president of the South African Pharmacy Council. Over the years this department and I have also built up a very intimate relationship and a very good working relationship with that council. We extend our hearty congratulations to both of these people and wish them everything of the best and every blessing as regards the important new tasks which they are to perform.

Yesterday, at the end of the first phase of the debate, I referred to certain parameters within which we had to run South Africa’s health services.

†This afternoon I would like to refer to certain aspects which several hon members mentioned during the course of the debate. One of them was the problem of tuberculosis. The hon member for Swartland and the hon member for Bezuiden-hout in particular referred to this problem. As we know, it is one of the most dangerous infectious diseases in South Africa.

I would like to point out one of the most important problems we have in dealing with this disease. It is a fact that 20% of those diagnosed do not complete their treatment. This, of course, stresses the importance of compliance. This also means that approximately 90 000 people annually can spread the disease all over South Africa because of ineffective treatment. One infectious tuberculosis sufferer infects up to ten households or close contacts. There is also a likelihood of resistance strains of micro-bacterian tuberculosis emerging because of inadequate treatment. I am particularly aware of, and perturbed about, the increase of tuberculosis in the Southern Cape and in the Western Cape. I therefore asked the Medical Research Council to investigate this phenomenon as there is no clear correlation between the socio-economic situation and tuberculosis in this area.

I am worried, however, that we may have a high incidence of HIV positive cases among those who are suffering from tuberculosis. Worldwide we know that tuberculosis is a condition which commonly occurs among those who are HIV positive. The department, in association with Santa, is also investigating—I think this is an important new venture—what is known as a buddy system. This consists of a system of volunteers, friends of patients, of whom one is selected by the patient to supervise his or her treatment. The buddy is given the necessary training, which is minimal, and he or she knows how to supervise the taking of the tablets and how to record the dosages taken personally.

This method can be used for epidemiological purposes, vertical control and problem diagnosis and correction. The buddies, as stated, require a minimum training which can be given by clinical nursing personnel or Santa health motivators. When a patient and his buddy have successfully completed the scheduled treatment, they will be presented with a certificate of achievement. This buddy system seems to be one of the few feasible ideas for improving compliance in our country.

The required tablets will be issued by the clinic staff to the buddy, and the clinic will then exercise the necessary control and arrange follow-up examinations. The patient will remain ambulant in the community, and probably at work. The buddy provides social and emotional support and supervises therapy. If hospitalisation becomes necessary, the clinic can arrange it. Easy to take treatment regimens can also improve patient compliance to this effect. Our department has introduced a multi-drug single tablet regimen for the treatment of tuberculosis in hospitals as well as clinics.

I would like to draw the attention of hon members to the fact that we have asked for an amount of R130 million for the combating of tuberculosis in South Africa in this Budget.

*A further important matter which has been raised both in the Press and in this committee, and which the hon member for Pietersburg mentioned, is the concern that is being expressed at the shortage of funds at our academic hospitals. Academic hospitals in South Africa are those places at which undergraduate as well as postgraduate training is provided. Academic hospitals are therefore the cornerstone of our health services.

I wish to announce this afternoon that the Cabinet has lent its approval to professional fees henceforth being levied at academic hospitals for services rendered by doctors at these hospitals, and to making these additional moneys available to these hospitals. This means that an amount of as much as R70 million per annum may be made available to these hospitals. These funds will be controlled and managed by an advisory committee on which the university concerned and the authorities will be represented. I wish to make it clear, however, that these professional fees will only be charged for those people who can afford them, that is to say private patients or patients who are members of medical aid schemes. Needy patients will not be required to pay any more than they are paying at present. I once again want to draw hon members’ attention to the fact that when a patient’s medical aid funds have been exhausted or when a patient has incurred expenditure in the private sector, that patient may approach the superintendent of the nearest provincial hospital and apply to be reclassified, so that that person will be able to receive free medical treatment if his financial means have been totally depleted.

The funds to which I have referred, will be applied specifically to improve the working conditions of the staff. The following are possible applications: The supplementation of library material; attendance at congresses, courses and symposia, both local and overseas; research assistance; the purchase of training and research equipment; the sponsoring of guest lecturers, and even the improvement of their salaries.

I have instructed the HMAC to work out the details of this system without delay. I am certain, however, that a great deal of relief will be brought about in this manner, not only in respect of working conditions, but also in respect of the financing of our training hospitals. We in South Africa are in a situation—I referred to this yesterday—in which there are simply not enough funds to do everything which we would like to do at a high level.

I should like to refer to another important aspect which the hon members for Swartland and Phoenix mentioned, namely the problem …

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister whether he can tell me, for the sake of clarity, whether the professional fees which are now going to be charged will only be professional fees in respect of the doctors’ services in that capacity, or whether this will also apply to hospital fees which are being provided by the province at the moment? Will there be an additional charge for these as well?

I should be pleased to explain it to the hon member for Pietersburg. At the moment if a medical aid patient visits a training hospital, the patient is rated at the maximum tariff. That is the non-recurrent tariff and a separate theatre fee is not charged; it is a non-recurrent tariff. An account is not submitted for the professional services of the doctor. It is here that a subsidisation of medical aid funds is, in fact, taking place. That subsidisation of medical aid funds could amount to as much as R70 million per annum in South Africa.

I want to come back to the hon members for Swartland and Phoenix with regard to the question of alcohol abuse. In this regard I should like to mention that the national plan for the prevention and combating of alcohol and drug abuse in South Africa, which was announced by me last year, is regarded as a suitable framework for combating this tremendous problem. This plan offers a guideline for the purposeful structuring of activities in order to address the problem adequately. An important feature of the plan is that it affords a comprehensive framework which provides for a partnership between the public sector on the one hand and the private sector on the other.

†The objectives of the plan are the following: Firstly, the prevention of alcohol and drug abuse, alcoholism and drug dependency in the community; secondly, control over the availability of alcohol and other drugs; thirdly, the provision of an effective treatment service for alcohol and drug abuse; fourthly, the co-ordination and extension of measures for the prevention of alcohol and drug dependence; finally, the compiling and assimilation, interpretation and dissemination of applicable knowledge and information. This will include schools and other educational facilities in South Africa.

The point of departure of the national plan is to promote the development of an environment in which people can maintain a constructive lifestyle based on healthy values, self-actualisation and responsibility.

In order to achieve these objectives a balance must be pursued between effective control over the production and marketing of the substance, preventative measures directed at the society and appropriate penal measures. In an effort to effectively implement the plan the entire community needs to be involved, and for this reason it is at present being marketed all over the country by means of deliberations involving the public and private sectors, all population groups as well as the TBVC states and self-governing territories. Based on these particulars it should be clear that we are at present doing everything in our power to purposefully address total drug abuse in South Africa.

A large number of hon members, amongst others the hon members for Stilfontein, Griqualand West, Diamant and Mrs Chait, also referred to Aids.

*It is undoubtedly true that Aids has today become the most significant communicable disease in the world, a disease with a mortality rate of 100%. However, it is a communicable disease in respect of which the person in most instances has a choice as to whether or not he wishes to acquire the virus. An amount of R5 million has been made available for the erection of clinics and training centres in Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, Durban, Bloemfontein and Pretoria, similar to the one in Johannesburg. Aside from the amounts that have been appropriated for these training centres, money has also been earmarked for equipment, professional services, advertising, and R1 million for condoms, whilst we have already appropriated R5 million for condoms in the family planning programme in South Africa. I shall say more about this later in the debate.

Lastly, I want to refer to a problem which was mentioned by the hon members for Tafelberg and Bayview.

†The hon members alluded to the registration of foreign medical graduates in South Africa. Hon members are aware that the SA Medical and Dental Council is at present meeting in Johannesburg. This council is of course an autonomous body. The whole problem will be discussed again at this meeting. At present only qualifications obtained in the United Kingdom and Belgium are considered for unlimited registration in South Africa. All other graduates must pass the screening test before limited registration is granted. This test may be taken as many times as the candidate wishes. Limited registration is usually granted for a period of three years, therefore it can be extended if the health authority employing the candidate requests the extension.

In October last year the council made two further concessions. Persons applying for registration as interns are exempted from the examination for limited registration, but they have to pass this examination as soon as they apply for limited registration as a doctor. Secondly, as an interim measure and in crisis circumstances, the council may grant an ad hoc registration under certain conditions.

The hon member for Bayview referred to a certain doctor who could not be employed by the Stanger Hospital. The ruling of the council is clear, namely if the responsible health authority can satisfy the council that there is a crisis in that particular hospital ad hoc registration will be granted.

*It will be a great privilege and pleasure for me to reply in more detail to all the hon members’ speeches later in the debate. I have merely sketched the background now.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister has announced a number of things today and I have no fault to find with them and perhaps on behalf of the DP I should add my congratulations to those people who he mentioned had been promoted, particularly of course, bearing in mind my constituency, to the lady from Port Elizabeth. I am sure she will not let the hon the Minister down because Port Elizabeth people are great.

I am sure.

On not such a happy note: As regards the Eastern Cape, perhaps the hon the Minister could spell out at some stage whether any specific action is being taken with regard to tuberculosis, which he mentioned, in the Eastern Cape. I understand that the figures for tuberculosis in the Eastern Cape are amongst the worst in the world and that in the Eastern Cape the incidence of tuberculosis is even greater than perhaps in the worst areas of India. Therefore I think that some special plan of action is necessary for the Eastern Cape and I would like the hon the Minister to tell us whether he has such a plan in mind and if so, what it is, because it is desperately needed.

I want to say to the hon the Minister that it is all very well to talk about national health plans, but there is no doubt that health knows no colour. One tuberculosis sufferer who is White can in fact infect somebody who is Black, Coloured, Indian or Chinese. Health knows no colour boundaries and I do not believe health services in South Africa should know any colour boundaries. In this regard I would like to know the viewpoint of particularly the hon the Deputy Minister of Population Development in the House of Representatives. Does he support the idea of different health authorities for different racial groups as an own affair? He shakes his head. I am glad that he does that and I hope that he will do anything in his power to see that this system is ended at the earliest possible moment. [Interjections.]

Sir, I actually want to talk about a substance called tartrazine. This is an orange-yellow acid dye used to colour foods, soft drinks, cosmetics and pharmaceuticals. In terms of South African law, if any substance, ointment or food contains tartrazine then that has to be announced on the label of the product concerned. The public has to be warned that tartrazine is present in that foodstuff. Tartrazine throughout the Western World has in recent years received very adverse comment. There were trials conducted in America by the Medlife Centre and they established that tartrazine can cause adverse reactions of acute asthma, rhinorrhagia, urticaria, palpitations, blurred vision, hot flushes, anaphylaxis and, perhaps more importantly, there is also evidence that it may cause hyperactivity in children. Therefore there can be no doubt that this is a harmful substance. Dr Ben Finegold conducted trials on hyperactivity and behavioural problems in the USA on children and his conclusion was that tartrazine is one of the food colourants implicated in behaviour disturbances in children. I think that is a fairly damning list of effects from taking tartrazine into the system. What are its advantages? The only advantage as far as I can see is that it makes a product aesthetically more pleasing to look at and in other words tartrazine in foodstuffs is nothing but a sales gimmick—it makes the product look better, so people will buy more of that particular product.

Why then should we allow tartrazine to continue to be put in foodstuffs within the South African society? I actually believe that the Government should consider banning the use of tartrazine in foodstuff or in fact in any substance where it can damage the health of the person who takes it. Perhaps it could be of advantage to South Africa if all our population took a colourant and we all ended up the same colour, but as far as tartrazine is concerned I believe that the hon the Minister and his department should consider banning its use within the South African context. [Interjections.] It has not happened in Western Europe at this stage, which is of course a far more sophisticated community, but I understand that a major number of food companies in Western Europe have actually themselves voluntarily banned tartrazine from their own products and they no longer use it.

The second point I wanted to make in this debate actually relates to the Group Areas Act and to health. I have had occasion in the last year or two to be called on by a number of people who are doctors and these are people who are not White doctors. There are an increasing number of private hospitals in South Africa, such as the polyclinics etc—there is one near to where I live in Port Elizabeth, the Greenacres Polyclinic— and their staff are totally multi-racial. There are Black nursing sisters, Indian doctors, Coloured nurses—they span the whole spectrum of South African society.

However, I can tell hon members there are doctors working in that hospital—I am sure this applies right across South Africa—who are not allowed to live near the hospital they work in because it stands in a White group area. They have to go and live right on the other side of town.

I want the hon the Minister to think what happens in the case of an emergency. If for instance an Indian doctor has a patient in that polyclinic who suddenly takes a turn for the worse and his presence is necessary, it can take him half an hour and—I presume in Johannesburg—even longer to get from his group area to that polyclinic to attend to that patient. I do not think this is good for anybody.

Secondly, in the event of a bomb explosion— Greenacres Polyclinic in Port Elizabeth, for example, is right next to a major shopping centre—there could be a similar problem. If there should be the tragedy of a terrorist bomb in that area, Greenacres Polyclinic is going to be flooded. It is then going to be important to have every medical practitioner on the spot as quickly as possible and at the earliest possible moment. That will save lives.

The point I am making is that I do not believe it is right to restrict anybody to any group area, but as a special plea, and within a system which in any event I believe is wrong, I would ask the hon the Minister on behalf of the good health of the people of South Africa to apply to his colleague for special dispensation for every person involved in health service to be able to buy a house close to the hospital in which he or she works. I believe that would be advantageous. I do not believe it would cause any disruption. After all, Sir, whatever one’s colour, when one is sick and one needs attention, one will welcome that attention, whatever the colour is of the person attending to one. I leave that thought with the hon the Minister.

Mr Chairman, I wish to beg your indulgence because I wish to preface my contribution to this debate with some rather philosophical comments.

It is probably a truism that one’s political perspective in life is to a large extent determined by one’s subjective experience of the society in which one grew up. Therefore it is so that the political perspective of a person of colour whose subjective experience was one of being a victim of racism, discriminiation, humiliation, overcrowding, inferior education and even detention without trial for one’s defence of one’s dignity, will necessarily be a different perspective from that of his White fellow countryman who grew up in the belief that he was superior to people of colour, who grew up in a society of superior neighbourhoods, superior housing, schooling, medical care and all the other attendant privileges.

The political perspective of the Afrikaner would have been a different one from that of his English-speaking countrymen in the aftermath of the Anglo-Boer War. Then the Afrikaner ’/as the oppressed. His political perspective then would have been a lot closer to the political perspective of people of colour today. He would probably have proposed radical solutions to redress his inferior economic status at the time.

I wish to tell hon members that I have great sympathy with the Afrikaner in that particular period of his history. He more than anybody else should have a great empathy for the situation people of colour find themselves in today.

When we call for the redistribution of the national resources of our country, we are not repeating empty cliches and slogans. We are in effect saying that the historical imbalances and disparities must be addressed and corrected. This is important if we are to build a country of justice and fairness.

It is amusing at times how, when one speaks of the redistribution of the national resources of this country, this conjures up images in the minds of some people of classical socialism and even of Marxism. I agree with the hon the Minister of Finance that we should utilise our limited resources as effectively and productively as possible.

I have said so on many occasions. However, if we look at our health services it is a sorry tale of the absolute waste of our limited resources. The fragmentation and duplication is absolutely mind-boggling. Even the commission of inquiry into health services, commonly referred to as the Browne Commission, found, and I quote:

According to Prof Michael Savage of UCT, and I quote:

Therefore I get absolutely confused as to which authority is in charge of which aspect of health in this country. Even people in the medical profession throw up their arms in horror at the fragmented state of our health services. One does not know whether it is the local authority, the RSC, the provincial council, the own affairs administrations or even the Ministry of National Health and Population Development which is in charge of a particular aspect of our health services. Of course, one has the further fragmentation which continues into the self-governing states and the TBVC states. What an absolute waste and drain on this country’s resources. Apartheid is indeed expensive. I think it was the hon member for Reservoir Hills who yesterday mentioned that we have 14 Ministers of Health in this country.

I wish to give hon members an example of what is happening. In Uitenhage in the Eastern Province, just before the own affairs administrations came into being, the Department of National Health had one dentist extracting the teeth of everybody who qualified—be they White, Coloured, Indian or Black. Then came the own affairs. The Administration: House of Representatives then appointed an additional clerk to do the administration in respect of the so-called Coloureds seeking dental care. Forms had to be completed and forwarded to the regional office in Port Elizabeth, which in turn took a few weeks to be processed. In the meantime the patient was writhing in agony while the bureaucratic tortoise marched on. [Interjections.] I must concede that this confusion occurred in the change-over period. Now, at least, the confusion is a bit more organised. [Interjections.]

The present situation in Uitenhage is that there are three heads of clinics, each employing its own dental staff; one for Whites under the Administration: House of Assembly, one for Coloureds under the Administration: House of Representatives and one for Blacks under National Health. I suppose if Uitenhage had a large enough Indian population there would be one under the Administration: House of Delegates as well. The sick joke, however, is that more extractions are not being done. The total is just about the same as when only one dentist was doing all the extractions.

We should multiply what is happening in Uitenhage a thousand times over and then we would have a picture of what is happening throughout this country. This is the simple tale of the fragmented state of our health services. One can only describe it as a confused jumble. An eminent academic made this observation, and I quote:

One thing is as clear as daylight; we cannot move into the year 2000 with such a fragmented health service. The consequences of retaining the present health structure, in the words of a former Prime Minister of this country, are “too ghastly to contemplate”.

Mr Chairman, first I want to draw the attention of the hon the Minister to something that was brought to my attention and that bothers me. About 16 or 17 years ago abortion was the subject of debate, and legislation was passed which legalised abortion in certain cases if the consent of the mother was obtained and if a medical practitioner recommended it because the mental health of the woman concerned was involved.

If one looks at last year’s data, one sees that from 1 September 1987 to 31 August 1988 there was a total of 372 cases of abortion among unmarried White women as a result of their mental state. It is a source of concern to me that abortion is legalised in this way, and the hon the Minister must please give us more information on this matter.

Mr Chairman, it is true that we could dream beautiful dreams in South Africa. We could dream about a future that might perhaps be rosy for many of us—one hopes so. We could work on our rosy future, but what would happen if the tremendous population growth we are currently experiencing were not curtailed? What would happen then?

The population growth increases by 2,3% per annum, but the economic growth rate is low. The economists say that an economic growth rate of approximately 5% is needed to maintain what we have at the moment. It is undeniably true that the Government is emptying the taxpayer’s purse at an ever-increasing rate. Particularly during the past four years these funds were paid off three times as quickly, in order to promote social services, as was the case with economic services. In other words, money was taken from the taxpayer and spent much more quickly in the social sphere than in the economic sphere. We are therefore becoming a socialist state.

If this information is correct, and I accept that it is correct, at the current population growth rate South Africa’s population will be 80 million in 35 years’ time and 138 million in 51 years’ time. What will be left then? Where will we get the necessary resources, particularly water, to restore the balance?

Fortunately we have the population development programme with its primary objective of planning in such a way as to prevent the resources from being swamped by the increase in the population. This is an attempt to increase the quality of life.

People are so worried about poverty. So many reports are written about it. Letters and more letters are published in the newspapers. However, I come across few people who are really worried about the increase in the birth rate, which will be an even greater problem in the future if we cannot keep it in check. I meet few people who are greatly concerned about the tremendous increase in the birth rate in South Africa. If the population development programme were to fail, great misery would await future generations.

Today I want to make a serious plea that this important programme, one of the most important programmes for our future, should resolutely be supported. We simply cannot permit ourselves to lose the battle! I want to appeal to the councillors involved in the population development programme, as a certain advertisement tells them: “Span alles in en wen. Ons is met julle. Ons ondersteun julle. Dink wyd en doen wyd.” We want to ask whether the R26 million is enough to develop this important programme and to win the battle? I am certain everyone would contribute if more funds are requested for the programme.

The approach of the population development programme should be more of a team approach, and a concerted one at that. Everybody in the Republic should adopt this team approach and participate in it, or else it will not succeed.

I am asking that we should concentrate particularly on the women. Very often they have to bear the brunt of children who have been forgotten by their fathers. I also want to ask farmers on their farms to make a more concerted effort to bring the population growth problem to the attention of everyone on their farms. I think that there are still problems in this regard since the farmers have not yet done enough to pass on the knowledge to the people who live on their farms and who work for them. The Government will also have to adopt stronger measures to prevent irresponsible fatherhood merely continuing. We want stricter steps to be taken against irresponsible fatherhood, with grandfather and grandmother often having to bring up the child.

I am glad to hear that such a change of attitude has already taken place in many people. It is a source of satisfaction for me. I often talk to people of various population groups and even now I am hearing the sounds of change in many of them. [Interjections.] They must be informed, because they do not always understand the population figures in the country. We must inform them about the economic and social problems resulting from an unmanageable numerical ratio between people and resources.

The most recent monitoring report shows a slight decrease in all the population groups. The population growth rate of Whites has decreased from 2,1 to 2. However I find it a cause for concern that in respect of the Whites, some people already have the idea that they are a dying people. The Whites are dying out, and we will have to devote more attention to this. According to the Week-end Mercury of 15 April a baby is born every 26 seconds in South Africa.

The growth rate among Black people is 3,6 times more than amongst Whites, 1,7 times more than amongst Asians and 1,5 more than amongst Coloureds. If sensible family planning could prevent 110 000 births per annum, a total of R13 500 million could be saved on education alone. What a large amount! [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, yesterday afternoon I was talking about the disproportionately high infant mortality among Black South Africans as compared with other South African children when I was interrupted by the running out of time. Time is one of those elusive things. Hon members probably know that in the Russian language there is no definitive article. A Russian visiting London disembarked at the Bond street tube station and walked upstairs where he met a bowler-hatted gentleman with his umbrella in typical London fashion. He said to this English gentleman: “Excuse me, what is time”? The English gentleman stopped in midstride and scratched his head. He took off his bowler hat, scratched his head again and said: “My dear fellow I don’t really know. You know, philosophers have been searching for an answer to that question for thousands of years.”

However, why is there this disparity between the infant mortality rate of Black children—in 1988 it stood at 80 per 1 000—and that of White children which mercifully is only 7 per 1 000. It is only because the living standards of Black people are so low. That is why there is this disparity.

They are still much better off than Australia’s Aborigines.[Interjections.]

They may be much better off, but fortunately I am not responsible for the Aborigines of Australia. They are not South Africans. I am concerned about South Africans and I am utterly ashamed of any South African who can actually excuse the disgraceful situation in this country by pointing to a more disgraceful situation in another country. [Interjections.]

I say it is disgraceful that any child in South Africa should suffer from pellagra or kwashiorkor. Clearly these are diseases of gross nutritional deficiency, and the fact that many children suffer from them is an indictment upon the society in which we live; it is an indictment upon the so-called Christian community that we have in South Africa. It is a serious indictment on every one of us who start our sessions with a prayer and very often, when it comes to translating what the prayer demands, fail in our duty.

What is another matter for great distress, is that whereas in almost all of Western Europe, and certainly in North America, as well as in the developed parts of Asia, tuberculosis is almost extinct, it has reached epidemic proportions among the Black people in South Africa. It has reached disastrous proportions among our Coloured people. Fortunately it is not so bad among our Asian people. Fortunately it is as good as it is in the United Kingdom among our White people and the problem does not give rise to any serious concern.

“The Asian situation is lucky,” as Basil Dormer, a TB expert, once said. This was due to the work done by an organisation called the Friends of the Sick Association, which was a founder member of Santa, the South African National TB Association, to which the hon the Minister referred earlier. I have the honour to be a member of the National Council of Santa and I want to tell hon members a story about this association.

It was established in the 1950s and I was present when this happened. When the late Dr Ver-woerd came into power—Dr Eiselen was the Secretary for Health—an instruction went out that the South African National TB Association had to be split into its racial components. That is what they wanted to do when they started own affairs. I was chairman of the Friends of the Sick Association at the time and I refused to obey that instruction. We eventually reached a compromise that we would send the White members of our organisation to meetings of Santa. That situation endured for a while until we were able to get a reversal with the result that Santa is once again a wholly, truly non-racial umbrella body of all the anti-TB organisations in this country.

In the Americas even the Hispanics who go there from Puerto Rico and Mexico have a lower incidence of tuberculosis than what we call the Coloured community and the Black people of South Africa. The hon the Minister referred to the tremendous rise in the incidence of tuberculosis in the Western Cape area. According to the 1988 report the incidence per 100 000 among Whites in this area is less than 30. This is very good. Among Asians it declines from approximately 100 to 60 per 100 000. Among what we call Coloured people, it has increased from approximately 400 to approximately 500 per 100 000. This is bad. Among our Black people it increased from 960 per 100 000 to approximately 1 100—a disastrous figure.

Anyone will tell us that the incidence of tuberculosis in any country is an index of the living standards of the people of that country. These figures speak for themselves. The figures indicate that the nutritional intake of our Black and our Coloured population is far too low.

Yesterday I told hon members about the mosquito with which I had a conversation, and the mosquito refused to accept the system of own affairs. Once I had a conversation with the tubercle bacillus, and I said to it, “why is it you go for the Blacks?” and the bacillus said to me, “Ag man, you know the White people are too well fed; the Blacks do not get enough proteins, therefore I go for them because it is easier for me to penetrate.”

Poor nutrition and bad housing are the primary culprits in the incidents of tuberculosis. The death rate from TB is also very high. However, I am not only talking in terms of human relations and the disaster it brings to the individual and the families and the sufferers but also about the disaster it brings to the economic situation in our country.

Tuberculosis is a disease that normally affects the most physically and economically active sectors of the population. Every person who gets TB to an extent causes destabilisation in the industrial output of his employer. He reduces the income of his employer and—as I said yesterday— indirectly causes a double drain upon the fiscus because TB is a compulsory notifiable disease. In terms of the Health Act (now via the provinces) TB is treated at State expense. Therefore the more TB cases we have, the more money it costs to cure them even though the increasing emphasis is upon domiciliary and ambulatory treatment of TB patients.

However, the prevention of any disease is the best way of ensuring the health of the nation. Many years ago Dr Sidney Kark and his wife, Dr Emily Kark, conducted an experiment in Polela. There they proved by a pilot clinic that preventive medicine—called community medicine today—is the best way to handle a situation. Once the experiment was proved Dr Henry Gluck-man, who was the Minister of Health under Smuts, saw to it that four additional health centres were established, namely in Tongaat, Springfield, Merebank and Edendale.

When Dr Stals became the Minister of Health he took the view, seeing that Sidney and Emily Kark as well as Henry Gluckman were Jewish, and made the statement—I am sorry to admit that a South African could have made this statement—that “these Jews are spoiling the natives” and ordered that these health centres be closed down.

We are paying the price of 40 years of negligence. The community centres now are being re-established by the provinces under guidance from the State. Thank goodness they are being re-established, but what a terrible waste of 40 years! What an enormous drain upon the resources of our country, and what a terrible indictment of the system of apartheid which caused this terrible problem. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Reservoir Hills will appreciate it if I do not follow on his speech because I want to say something about population development in the rural areas.

*After quite a number of debates on this subject, I want to view it from a different angle. If hon members are going to accuse me of becoming sentimental, I shall plead guilty. I want to concentrate more specifically on the Coloured farm labourer in the greater Western Cape as I have come to know him, but my remarks will also be applicable to farm labourers elsewhere in South Africa.

The farm labourer is often spoken of in a disparaging way. He is regarded as a kind of outcast. He is seen and branded almost as an untouchable. The impression is created that he is too stupid to do anything else, that he lives a wretched life and tries to drown his sorrows in all kinds of alcoholic beverages over weekends. In other words, he is regarded by those from the urban complexes and bigger towns as a totally illiterate person who has no conception of a better life and is therefore content with his wretched lot on the farm.

Let us face two facts squarely. My experience has shown me that the lower the level of the urban observer, the more contemptuous he is of these people. Secondly, I admit that there are people who abuse certain substances, but the farmers are only too aware of the situation and of these evils. Studies have shown that they are caused by a low level of education and literacy, but also by idleness, especially over weekends in many cases. For this reason, a massive project for the upliftment of these people has been undertaken with the assistance of the Rural Foundation, which will be discussed by another hon colleague. This foundation does excellent work. It is the cheapest rehabilitation project that any Government could embark upon. That is why I feel at liberty to ask for more Government support for this.

One reason for the cost effectiveness of this project of the Rural Foundation is the fact that the farmer is involved in this project with his staff and all his facilities. The results are already evident. The birth rate in region 4— the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development’s region, which includes Ceres, Tulbagh and Worcester and the surrounding area—has dropped within four years from 3,4 to 2,7 per fertile woman. In region 5—Southern Cape Province— the figure has dropped within two years from 3,5 to 2,9, which to some extent contradicts what the hon member for Witbank said. The percentage of natural births in the rural area of region 4—which includes the towns as well—has dropped from 20,18 to 16,92. This has happened in only two years. In region 5, the percentage has dropped from 19,92 to 17,99.

The results achieved with regard to the infant mortality rate within this period of two years are equally dramatic. These figures refer to children who have died before attaining the age of one year. The number of deaths per thousand live births has dropped from 75 to 50, and from 47 to 32. Even the wages have improved considerably, by 14% a year. In this respect there is still room for improvement, however, but I shall come back to this presently.

Within this period of two years, literacy has increased from 60% to 70% in region 5, Southern Cape Province. South Africa is the only country in the world that keeps a record of statistics of this kind, and if hon members were to claim that these were not dramatic figures, I would dispute that strongly. On behalf of the farmers and of the rural areas, therefore, I want to convey our sincere congratulations and heartfelt thanks to the hon the Minister and his department for this massive effort which they are making and which I believe has no parallel anywhere else in the world.

The farmers recognise their responsibility. They realise that the workers are their best partners. They are helping the workers to make a living and even, in some cases, to make money. So the farmer of South Africa realises that a trained, well-motivated worker is simply worth far more to himself and to the farmer. Better facilities can therefore be provided for the worker and he can be paid much more. The farmer realises that he has to rely on such a worker, and the better he trains him, the better it will be for everyone.

What is very important, in my opinion, is that this worker does not get involved in riots and unrest. The interests of these people are intertwined with those of the farmers; they know one another. That is why no farm worker has rebelled anywhere in South Africa.

There are no group areas.

The farmer and the worker live on the same farm.

Wages and salaries have increased enormously. I must concede that there is room for improvement, but to allege that the Coloured labourer earns a starvation wage is completely untrue.

Yes, it is a starvation wage.

I should like to tell that hon Minister that no deductions are made for transport, medical expenses, rentals, electricity, water, firewood, food or whatever is provided. What the worker takes home on Friday night is his full wage, and not just a part of it.

If that is the case, why are the towns so full and the farms so empty?

Every second day, I am approached by Coloured people from the towns who are looking for work on the farm, because they know that my workers have some money left on Friday nights.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

Unfortunately I do not have time to answer a question.

The farmers realise their responsibility. They are grateful to these people.

Not all of them.

I want to tell the hon the Minister that 90% of the farmers realise what these workers mean to them. On behalf of the farmers of South Africa, therefore, I want to thank the workers and pay tribute to them for the work they do. I want to tell the hon members that it is thanks to these workers that they are so well nourished when they take their seats in this House.

Finally, on behalf of the farmers, I want to give the assurance that we shall keep trying to improve the workers’ quality of life, because we know that it is in the interests of all, of the whole of South Africa, to have workers who are happy and content, properly clothed and well-nourished.

Mr Chairman, I would not like to react to the previous speaker. Participating in this debate gives me the opportunity to emphasise the problems we have at all nonWhite hospitals. There are numerous questions that should be answered in accordance with Vote 25: “National Health and Population Development”. The most important aspect in this regard is the non-White nursing staff who contribute so much time, effort and dedication to all the patients at hand. The issue concerning parity at all levels of the nursing profession should be addressed as soon as possible. In this regard discrimination is administered, from creche level to the stage where nurses are victimised only because of the colour of their skin. The LP has a song that says: “My only sin is the colour of my skin”. Since the inception of segregation people of colour have been discriminated against. [Interjections.] If we look back on the history of South Africa we will see that Mr J H Conradie, the Administrator of the Cape in 1938, said:

Discrimination in hospitals in South Africa is outdated and should be totally scrapped. I would now like to address the NP Government. What are they afraid of? Scrap is uncalled for legislation and recognise us as true South Africans. Have the so-called non-Whites gone berserk and married the Whites since the Mixed Marriages Act was abolished? No, Sir. This proves that the abolition of the other pieces of legislation will be accepted heartily. In reply to the debate I must say that in God’s eyes these Laws are unchristian and as a God-fearing country we should do away with all discrimination at hospitals. In Die Burger of yesterday the hon the Administrator of the Cape Province questions the duplication of facilities and I quote:

The non-White hospital at Coronationville is a health hazard and this was reported to the MEC, Mr D Kirstein, and he emphatically denied it. [Interjections.] Is it because this is a non-White hospital that no concern is shown by the Transvaal Administration? In the same words I would like to say that Mr Kirstein must forget about the colour of his skin and administer this hospital on the same basis as is the case with the White hospitals. The question arises whether all hospitals must be opened to people of all races. In a letter concerning the Gen de la Rey Hospital the Administrator, Mr Hough, replies as follows to a MP, Mr Louw:

This hospital was previously patronised by the non-Whites. Where must these people go to now? What do we do with them? Is it possible for a White patient to get contaminated when he is attended to or nursed by a non-White nurse? No, Sir, these very non-Whites are the best to administer patients. As the hon member for Parktown in the Public Extended Provincial Committee in Transvaal said, the non-White nurses are of the very best that he has worked with. If one looks at the utilisation of hospital beds one will see that the majority of non-White hospitals are overcrowded, whereas the White hospitals have beds to spare. [Interjections.] In this regard I would like to quote from the Sunday Times of 2 April 1989 under the heading: “Hospital crisis”:

Order! Hon members should lower their voices, please. The hon member may proceed.

The article continues—

†The article goes on to say—

At the end of this article it says:

This shows the problems experienced at nonWhite hospitals.

In an article in the Sunday Times dated 16 April 1989, under the heading, “Aids lays Africa to waste”, the following is said:

My question is: What is being done to eliminate this problem, and how is the man in the street protected against all these Aids carriers?

Mr Chairman, before I refer to a few matters mentioned by certain hon members in their speeches, I want to react in general to what the hon member for Swartland said. He said the disease of racism should be eradicated. That is what he said. I can assure the hon member that this Government is going to eradicate the disease of racism. [Interjections.] The only thing we want in the process of eradicating racism and discrimination is … [Interjections.]

†The hon member for Houghton must listen. All that we ask for is, give us a bit of credit for what has been done to date.

We always do.

Yes.

†The hon member for Reservoir Hills also pleaded that we should do away with discrimination. The point is that hon members should just give us a bit of credit for what has been done in this country to improve the quality of life of people in this part of the world. [Interjections.]

*I must say I miss the hon member for Parktown here. We can really ask: “What has happened to the sole and authentic representative of the PFP of the Republic of South Africa?” [Interjections.] At least he made one good diagnosis. He realised some time ago that a three-headed being’s chance of survival is zero. A threeheaded being cannot live. [Interjections.]

Furthermore I want to refer to what the hon member for Witbank said. The hon member for Witbank made a wonderful speech. He spoke about population development and he said: “Think and do extensively.” What was the hon member really saying? If we want to “think and do extensively”, we need money. The question we must put to the CP is whether the money that is going to be used is White money or Black money. They must answer that for us. I want to ask the hon member for Witbank, since he spoke about the farmers and the important part they should play in the population development programme, to take his car when he goes back during the recess and drive to the CP farmers. Instead of coming forward with all his old absurd CP stories, he must say to them: “Let us put our shoulders to the wheel in order to get the population development programme going.” [Interjections.]

Of course I am going to stand in Rustenburg and I am going to come back here. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Langlaagte referred to pollution in the country. That is a matter that receives a lot of attention in the media.

†The first point that I would like to make is that we are indeed very concerned about the growing problem of pollution. Secondly we must emphasise that pollution is of course a very complex and multi-faceted problem which stretches over a very wide terrain. Every individual person and every living creature and plant is in some or other way exposed to pollutants. People are becoming more and more aware of this fact and it is no wonder that this has become a very highly emotional subject. During recent years the department has had many reports on pollution, some of which have been of a very high standard. We take note of every bit and piece of research being done either locally or abroad.

*We therefore have a thorough background knowledge of the kinds of pollution elements, of contributory factors that influence the degrees of pollution, of the damaging effects to health, of the detrimental effect on the environment and so on. In other words, we have a good idea of what we are dealing with and what it is all about, but we are living in a fast changing world of rapid technological development, industrialisation and urbanisation, to mention only a few of the variables. These changes have had a multiple effect on the increase in the pollution potential and in these circumstances we shall lean more and more heavily on the researchers of whose accountable reports we shall have to take thorough cognisance in order to base our planning on a scientific basis. If there should be any question of balanced pollution control, and especially in view of the State and other Government bodies’ involvement, we shall be forced to take the multifaceted problems and given circumstances into account in any plan whatsoever that is worked out or implemented.

The status quo in respect of pollution is often questioned. Many questions are asked, in the hope that we have the answer. In fact, the hon member for Langlaagte asked the same question, viz whether we are succeeding in combating pollution. We see many letters in the Press, and one letter writer is cleverer than the next. All of a sudden many opinion-makers and experts are appearing on the horizon. The Atmospheric Pollution Prevention Act, which is administered by this department, is the main instrument in implementing air pollution control—viz the pollution that is found outside the factories and to which the public is exposed. Smoke pollution in cities and pollution caused by diesel vehicles is controlled by the respective local authorities in terms of the Act.

†The most remarkable improvement in visible smoke pollution is in the White areas of our big cities. One can hardly realise or remember what the centre of Johannesburg or the skies above the Iscor works in Pretoria used to look like on a calm winter’s morning in the late sixties. On this basis there is no doubt that the Atmospheric Pollution Prevention Act, which was promulgated in 1970, has been a success.

However, the same cannot be said about Black residential areas which are still the worst polluted areas in the whole country. Steady, if not spectacular progress has been made with scheduled processes but, because of the enormous costs involved, this is a long-term project.

The following questions can be posed: Does the Act need a major face-lift? Is the Act being effectively enforced? These questions need to be addressed at a high level.

*In my opinion we have certain answers to these questions.

The National Air Pollution Advisory Committee is at present involved in a complete revision of the Act, and we expect that they will come forward with legislative proposals shortly. Although we have to wait for the findings of the National Air Pollution Advisory Committee in this connection, it is necessary to point out that the regulatory duties and functions in respect of air pollution control are woefully fragmented among the various Government and municipal departments. Consequently it is almost impossible to strive for a co-ordinated, all-embracing programme of action and the formulation of a uniform policy and objectives. This will have to receive attention and we shall have to rationalise. I shall say more about this later.

For hon member’s information, I can merely say that the National Air Pollution Advisory Committee decides on a priority basis what will receive their attention. The first two priorities are smoke pollution of residential areas and transport polluting substances.

†I am satisfied that the new blood in the National Air Pollution Advisory Committee can do a great deal to put air pollution control back on to a national course.

*I referred incidentally to the smoke pollution from Black areas. That is an enormous problem, because it is a socio-economic problem. From that point of view pollution can be combated only if we improve people’s quality of life, if we improve people’s degree of literacy and if we can get through to the masses with our counselling programmes.

†This is necessary because, finally, the success of air pollution programme depends on the community’s knowledge and the awareness of the problems.

*There is a strong movement in all the leading Western countries to combine all environmental pollution aspects in a single umbrella organisation, and that is the direction we are moving in.

†The more one reads and the more one sees only enforces the opinion that what we need in South Africa, is a more co-ordinated approach to environmental control in general and air pollution in particular. We might go as far as establishing a complete environmental protection programme. If we take the appropriate steps in time, it might lead to better ways of growing up, growing old and dying gracefully. One of these is by breathing fresh air, by combating pollution. The rules to attain such goals should not be draconian in nature but, after discussions with representatives of industry and the public, agreed on as both necessary and economically achievable for the protection of man and his environment.

*In talking about communication, I want to interrupt myself to thank every official at the head and regional offices who is involved in air pollution control. They are an absolute example to us of how one should negotiate with industrialists and local government bodies in order to obtain co-operation without implementing the legislation in draconian fashion. One must also address a word of thanks to the industrial corps of South Africa, however. I wonder whether hon members realise what enormous amounts of money are invested by industries, not to increase their profits, but in order to take part in the environment conservation campaign. During the past two decades Eskom has provided R800 million for this purpose. A further R82 million was spent on the improvement of equipment, and R122 million was budgeted for the upgrading of equipment in order to control air pollution over the next six years. We have great appreciation for that.

In conclusion I want to refer briefly to the so-called Montreal Agreement to which the hon member for Langlaagte referred.

†Increasing concern is expressed over the dangerous effects that the depletion of the ozone layer could have on man and his environment. It was realized that the threat could only be addressed effectively by international co-operation and to foster co-operation the then Vienna Convention for the protection of the ozone layer was convened in 1985, followed in 1987 by the drafting of the Montreal Protocol on ozone depletion substances. Unfortunately South Africa was not invited to participate in these summit meetings. Nations committed to the stipulations of the Montreal Protocol have agreed to freeze and reduce the rate of consumption and production of the controlled substances as described in the protocol. The so-called controlled substances described by the Montreal Protocol are of special importance to the South African mining industry which is totally dependent on efficient cooling systems in exceptionally deep mines. In South Africa voluntary switchovers to alternatives have already been made and such actions are highly appreciated.

After proper consultation with interested parties and due consideration of the implications, the Government has decided that by signing the protocol South Africa will join all other countries who strive towards a future free from this threat to humanity. South Africa will ratify the protocol as soon as possible.

*I conclude by appealing to hon members to comply with the request of the Director-General of the World Health Organisation to talk about health.

†Let us talk health. Let us talk clean air. Let us talk about the protection of our environment. It is in the interests of all of us.

*The hon member for Langlaagte referred to tobacco consumption. The health authorities are striving to act responsibly while taking certain general facts into account. Certain facts are as plain as a pikestaff.

You must talk to him.

Yes, I am talking to the hon member for Alberton. He must listen.

There are certain facts that we cannot ignore, and there is general unanimity on them. Millions of people enjoy smoking. It is an age-old practice. The decision as to whether or not to smoke rests with the individual. Another fact on which there is unanimity is that children should not smoke. It is also the department’s view that children should not be exposed to the advertising of cigarettes and tobacco. As a result we developed an advertising code in co-operation with the Advertising Standards Authority in order to regulate the advertising of tobacco in an orderly fashion and to restrict exposure to young people. One should smoke circumspectly and courteously in the right place at the right time, because smoking offends a large part of the population.

Researchers agree that the smoking habit is a contributory factor and in some cases even the cause of lung cancer and other so-called smoking related lung diseases. The last point I want to make in this connection is that the tobacco industry forms a very important part of the agricultural activities in the RSA.

It would be wrong to permit one-sided handling of matters concerning smoking. As a result no consideration whatsoever is being given to prohibiting the consumption of tobacco. That would be futile power play. The hon member for Queenstown can enjoy his smoke, therefore. One-sided handling of the matter would be wrong. I am very happy about the discussions I had with representatives of the tobacco industry recently, and with the fact that they understand the meaning of these flashing red lights and the problems we have to deal with. Consequently I think that we must handle the excessive and irresponsible use of tobacco in co-operation with the tobacco industry. The key words here are moderacy in the use of the commodity and balance in dealing with the matter, taking all the substantive facts at everyone’s disposal into account.

Mr Chairman, if I have any time left, I should like to say something in connection with a matter to which the hon member for Welkom referred, viz occupational health legislation. I see the hon member for Carletonville, who is very interested in this matter, is here too. The hon member made a very important point when he said the framework within which we were handling the legislation at the moment was lacking in uniformity. That message also emerged very clearly from the commentary we received once the legislative proposals had been circulated to almost 600 persons and institutions. This is an enormous problem.

It is true that we shall never satisfy everyone, no matter what amending legislation we propose. There are numerous interest groups whose view of matters not only differs drastically, but sometimes conflicts. The fact is that all workers are equally important to the Government, and an attempt must be made to take care of the health and safety on a uniform basis of everyone who finds himself in a so-called risk work situation. That is the rationalisation to which reference was made in the Erasmus report.

In the final legislative proposals, which I hope will be tabled next year, we shall have to move right away from discriminatory legislation and shall have to accept the following assumptions. In the first place all compensation aspects will have to be handled and administered by one body, viz the Workmen’s Compensation Commissioner. Secondly, the compensation will not be determined by colour, but by the merit of the worker … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, we in the Democratic Party are extremely pleased that the Government has decided to sign the Montreal Protocol. We believe the protection of the ozone layer is of tremendous importance, not only to the health of South Africa but also to that of the world and of the environment itself. We would trust that if the Government can see fit to sign the Montreal Protocol, they could also see fit to sign the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. However, that would be asking for too much in an election year.

It is not a health problem.

It is a decided health problem— the health of South Africa.

A sanity problem.

Mr Chairman, I would like to address the subject of civil pensions and the Civil Pension Fund. The report of the department indicates that there are 132 000 civil pensioners of all race groups in South Africa. As far as the position of civil pensioners in South Africa is concerned—viz persons who have retired from the service of the State—I am led to understand that they were granted an increase of 1% per year of retirement, with a minimum of 10% with effect from 1 January this year. I am happy that this was granted. However, this must be seen in the light of no increase last year and no further likely increase this year. Thus in two years— the whole of 1988 and the whole of 1989—they would have had a minimum increase of 10%. I believe this creates problems and I have raised the question of anomalies in the Civil Pension Fund with the hon the Minister on a number of occasions. I regret that this is going to happen again, particularly as State employees have had a minimum of 15% increase and teachers, which make up the largest single group in the Public Service, in fact have had a 23% increase within the past year.

Those persons who retired on the wrong date will find themselves in a considerably worse situation than those who retire later. We hope the hon the Minister will address this anomaly which I regret is likely—as I have pointed out—to increase further. However, I must indicate to the hon the Minister— the medical man that he is—that sometimes we must not believe everything the doctors and the public service tell us.

I received some information this morning concerning a pensioner of the Public Service—I am sure the the hon the Minister will be interested in this—who enquired whether it was correct that the 1% increase for each year of retirement had been granted. The person whom she was phoning said that that was correct. The pensioner then said that she was getting a 62% increase. The question arose as to how she could be getting a 62% increase. She was medically boarded from the teaching profession when she was 30 on grounds of ill health. She is now 92 and this year she got a 62% increase in her pension. I thank the hon the Minister for the increase given to that lady.

However, the point that I want to raise regarding the funds themselves concerns an announcement which the hon the Minister made a short time ago on the applications of those members of the Government Service Pension Fund who had applied to buy back prior to 21 September 1987 but whose applications had not yet been processed. The hon the Minister has indicated in several statements that a total of some 6 800 applications were in the process of being handled and that those which had been provisionally rejected would now be accepted. I understand that a possible total sum of R256 million was involved or would likely be involved in this. I would like the hon the Minister to clarify whether this represents the end of this particular problem or whether there is a situation regarding, for example, estates of persons who died prior to such granting being given.

Thirdly, I would like to look at the state of the GSPFs themselves. The hon the Minister made a speech at the pension institute’s annual congress on 21 March in which he referred to the problems experienced by the GSPF. He referred to the shortfall of R7,6 billion. However, I think there is a question regarding the word “shortfall”. He also indicated that the GSPF, although not experiencing any financial problems as yet, could not continue in its present way indefinitely—in the words of the hon the Minister. He indicated that a joint solution should be found before the load became too great. I want to ask the hon the Minister what he actually means by that and what he believes should be done about the GSPF and the other Government funds.

Within that particular area we must indicate that at the present moment there is R21 billion involved in the funds. This has risen very rapidly over the past five years from 1983 with R8 billion, 1984 with R10 billion, 1985 with R13 billion, then R17 billion to R21 billion. That amount of money—R21 000 billion—has to be invested in Government stock. The hon the Minister indicated there was a possibility that he would look at other areas of investment.

I do not believe that the hon the Minister’s speech actually received the Press’s attention and the attention in business circles that it should have, because once we start looking at R21 000 billion invested in Government stock which could be used elsewhere in other stocks and shares or as other capital ventures, we are actually talking about very massive reinvestment within the South African financial scene.

Within this context we have to see what the hon the Minister of Finance said about pension and insurance companies being able to invest in non-Government stock not having a fixed percentage. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he can give us any further indication, particularly to the business and other communities of this country, as to whether he, obviously in consultation with the Department of Finance, has any further views to express on the investment basis of the R21 billion. Is he considering together with the Cabinet that this money should be invested elsewhere? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, yesterday the hon member for Phoenix made a passionate plea when he said his appeal went beyond all political affiliations insofar as alcoholism is concerned. I want to broaden that aspect and say that I appeal to all political parties to look at the health situation from the perspective from which it should be looked at. I believe that since 1 April 1988 a further crime was committed on the health scene when various portfolios of health were transferred to the different administrations in Parliament.

I believe very firmly in the age-old Latin dictum mens sana in corpore sano, which in English means a sound mind in a healthy body. In my opinion a number of healthy bodies multiplied by the population of this country will clearly result in an extremely healthy population, and so we will be contributing to the necessary requirement of high productivity. Our country’s situation borders on Third World conditions, and we therefore most definitely need high economic growth, and to achieve this we need high productivity.

Whilst we place emphasis on curative measures, I believe that much more attention should be given to preventative measures perhaps by way of a programme of food subsidies to the underprivileged people. A minor who is brought up undernourished only becomes a very sick adult, and this hampers our economic growth and productivity tremendously.

We have a duty to render services to the sickly, but in that we are in fact only attending to the symptomatic problems. On the other hand, if we concentrate on large-scale preventative measures we will be addressing the root cause of ill-health.

I am of the opinion that the Department of National Health and Population Development should seriously consider broadening the base, and with a tremendously intense focus on health care, establishing programmes particularly for the underprivileged.

The squatters in the various provinces, which constitute a large concentration of people, are a major cause for concern. I believe these people are not squatting by choice, but out of compulsion. To the squatting community health care is imperative. In this respect I again believe that preventative measures should take the leading role.

I listened attentively to the hon the Deputy Minister when he said we should heed the call of the Director-General of the World Health Organisation to discuss health. I grant him that. Unfortunately, if we want to discuss health in South Africa, we need, as a prerequisite, also to discuss the many social problems with which the community at large is confronted. Take for example the Group Areas Act, which was highlighted by several speakers.

I believe that the person who is victimised under this draconian measure and who is now forced to go and live in the squatter camp obviously is going to find himself in problems in so far as health is concerned. There again, if we address those problems first, then I think we will be on the right track when we say that we should discuss health and health at all times.

I want to say to the hon the Minister here that we have seen the folly of various laws that has made it virtually impossible to provide the necessary health services to the desired extent that the hon the Minister would like to. I believe that this competent hon the Minister can and should with his hon colleagues in Cabinet address those social problems that they are being confronted with throughout the underprivileged community. Then the hon the Minister will have taken a step in the right direction and I am sure thereafter we will be able to jointly provide the health services that he so much would love to provide.

Mr Chairman, I would like to congratulate the hon member Mr Razak on his very positive contribution and we wish him all the best.

*Last year, in this debate, we asked one another whether a population explosion such as that in Bangladesh, Biafra and Ethiopia could be avoided in South Africa, or is our own time bomb still ticking away inexorably while we, the last generation who can do something about this, accept it with almost fatalistic resignation? However, we are grateful to hear that there are indications that progress is being made in this field. I nevertheless want to make an appeal to the department that there should be no slackening off in the PDP campaign and that we should vigorously proceed with that programme.

I merely want to point out to the hon member for Witbank that it is a scientific fact that there is a positive correlation between poverty and a high birth rate. One consequently asks oneself what his party’s policy is in this regard, in the light of their negative attitude towards, for example, regional services councils, bodies that actually deal with this specific problem. We all ask ourselves today how heavily the burden of poverty rests on the conscience of every South African who is in a privileged position, particularly in the light of the disturbing Carnegie Report on the incidence of poverty in South Africa. I just want to point out to the hon member for Reservoir Hills that there is also a great deal of poverty among my people. In their book Uprooting Poverty: The South African Challenge, Profs E Wilson and R Mramphele sum up the essence of the question of poverty as follows: Poverty is not a moral and neutral phenomenon which merely needs to be understood. But how is this question dealt with in a country where the needs are greater than the country’s financial capabilities? In the short term these writers advocate a strategy involving the granting of greater powers, investment in people and the encouragement of community organisations to accept greater responsibility for development projects and job creation, something that I think we on this side of the House fully support.

Since the Carnegie investigation took place, this Government has done a great deal to establish a new entrepreneurial urban Black population by increasing labour mobility and deregulation, a population which is working out its own salvation. It is a community in which, as we have also noted, there is a significant drop in the birth rate. The SBDC estimates, for example, that between three and four million Black people are already involved in the informal sector, and that their annual turnover is estimated at between R15 and R20 billion, which is good progress. The question is: What is the present-day situation on our farms where the alarmingly high birth rate of 5,7 children per woman is still found, as we have recently learnt?

We must accept that there are still distressing backlogs in our rural areas. Something remarkable is happening, however, and it is time for South Africa and the critical world—here I am linking up with what the hon member for Wellington said—to take note of the exceptional work of the Rural Foundation, which is the primary agent of the Chief Directorate of Population Development in the rural areas.

The small group of farmers in the Stellenbosch district who started the Foundation have, for a long time now, no longer been merely voices calling out in the wilderness, because today there are a total of 104 community development associations. A total of 3 291 farmers who are members are also involved, and 41 687 families are included, representing a total of 268 000 individuals. This represents a fine increase of 41% over the past year.

The various sports that are organised include soccer, rugby, tug of war, and jukskei, and 1 700 teams were involved in those sports last year. More than 20 000 people participated in excursions and 106 attended film shows and concerts.

The Rural Foundation, together with the Directorate of Family Planning, is currently developing a programme for basic health-workers on farms in the Eastern Transvaal. 150 of the health-workers have already been trained and employed by farmers.

A singular achievement is that 156 000 workers participated in a wide variety of educational courses such as personal hygiene, parent-child relationships, family planning and income management. In-service training was provided for 16 000 farm labourers. A fine feather in the cap of the Rural Foundation is the 7 000 children who received pre-school care in the 338 facilities that exist. It is also illuminating that 5 500 families were members of a funeral scheme, 2 400 of provident funds and 3 800 of medical aid schemes; this surprised me just as much. This is a trend which is spreading like wildfire.

What really gives me hope for the future is the positive reaction of our farming communities throughout the country, as reflected in the fact that there is such a long waiting list today of communities who want to join the community development associations. Members of these associations have, for example, thus far spent R15 million on the improvement of their labourers’ houses, while 25 000 farmers have already undergone labour management training at a cost of R37 000.

Farmers who are members are also some of the best marketers of this foundation. The hon member for Bethlehem, whom I saw here a moment ago, is one of the farmers who has experience of this and who has been a member of such an association for quite a few years and he cannot say enough about the wonderful reaction and change it has brought about on his farm.

We must acknowledge to one another that agriculture is experiencing one of its most serious crises to date as far as the availability of labour is concerned. Those who prevail in the crisis will win because they are prepared to adapt to new circumstances, to broaden their own horizons and to look at their farms with new eyes and regard them as a macro-community in which their means of production, land-capital and people must coexist in harmony. They are prepared to devote more attention than ever before to this human component in their farming set-up.

In this regard agriculture gratefully accepts, as the hon member for Wellington has just said, the helping hand extended to it by this department in the form of the Rural Foundation. There is a great deal of appreciation for the R8,1 million contribution from this department which makes it possible for 75% of the costs of each developer to be recovered. There is also a great deal of appreciation of the enormous contribution from the private sector. The name of Mr J I Case deserves special mention—his donation of R1,2 million made nine community halls at Boskop Training Centre possible, allowed 140 of the 210 farm schools to be upgraded and allowed a marketing video to be made for the Rural Foundation.

If one can add anything, it is desirable to take another look at how we can achieve better co-ordination between the various Government and private bodies that are active in this field in our country. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, as you can hear, my voice is not what it should be because I have a cold. I hope it will soon pass.

I am very glad to be the last person to talk on this topic of health today. I must say it will not help hon members to go into all manner of aspects. If one wants to eradicate an evil, one goes to the root of that evil. Once one removes the root of the evil the evil itself disappears. This is what we must realise in our country, South Africa, today. As employers, representatives of others and as mothers and fathers we must realise that if we want to eradicate the evil in our midst we must go to the root of the trouble. Hon members present here know what we must do. A great deal has been said and there are many good things in this report which I greatly appreciate. I am very happy to be able to see what is being done in this country.

A specific topic was touched on here by hon members in respect of which I can merely say that we can definitely eradicate the evil. I cannot see how large trucks loaded with liquor can travel from our White brothers to the Coloured and Black areas. It is offloaded there and the people are told that they can come and pay for the liquor on Monday. What about the health of those people? Where are we taking those people if we are giving them liquor and telling them they can pay for it later. I do not agree with that.

I see how much money has been spent on training in all spheres. Here is another evil, however, because in the Free State there are hospitals where people of colour cannot get training. This is another evil which must be eradicated. If a Coloured or a Black man is involved in an accident outside his own area, he must drive past the White hospital and he dies before he gets to his own hospital. This is the evil which must be eradicated. All these things must be removed from the community. I do not agree that, as regards the health of the people, we still come across cases where it is said that we may not practise in a specific place because we are not White. If a person is sick he is sick and he needs help.

The relevant White MEC in the Free State said there was no discrimination in our hospitals. However, I want to say that there is. I want to say that there definitely is, because I cannot see why an ambulance carrying sick people must drive past a hospital to another hospital. I really cannot accept that.

We talk about the population growth and a number of facts have been mentioned here by the hon member. However, I want to ask the hon the Minister what we are giving the people. [Interjections.] What are we giving those people who have so many children? We must start with the men. [Interjections.] The men are causing the trouble and the hon the Minister must start there. I cannot understand why only women are given information, while the men are ignored. We must control the population growth and Aids is also involved here.

Let us take Cape Town as an example. We allow our daughters to come here. Why do we not prevent these things? They go around with the sailors and the hon the Minister must then support those children. How are we going to overcome this problem? This is the evil we must eradicate. I do not know what goes on between the children and the sailors, but the hon the Minister must look into these matters. This hurts us.

I now come to escort clubs. This is another evil in South Africa. I was so proud of the Free State but now I understand there are also escort clubs in Bloemfontein, I was shocked out of my wits. Dreadful things develop out of these escort clubs. I do not know what goes on there, but the hon the Minister must investigate the matter thoroughly and see what can be done about it. A lot of money is being spent on health and the combating of venereal diseases, but if we do not remove the cause, it will simply cost us more and these sexual practices will continue.

As regards farms, I want to ask the owners of farms what they do with their sick workers. Are they visited at home? Do they speak to them?

Yes!

Thank you very much. Hon members have answered in the affirmative. However everyone does not do this. I want to ask hon CP farmers whether they really visit their farm workers. One cannot manage without one’s farm workers. They are the farmer’s machinery. They are the people who drive his tractors. They are his income. The farm workers of hon members who are farmers hold the fort while they are here in Parliament, not so? These people must be looked after and it must be ensured that they get better housing.

I grew up on a farm and I know what I am talking about. I have been on farms where the farm workers have cottages with windows measuring 12” by 12”. The cottages barely have chimneys. Across the road there is the old farm house and a brand new house which the farmer has built for himself! What is being done for those farm workers? It must be ensured that these circumstances improve. This is the evil! Those boys and girls end up on the streets and become skollies and thieves. I am asking the hon the Minister to see to it that the farmers look after their workers well.

We shall have to use the R5 million, which the hon the Minister has budgeted for the combating of Aids, effectively. However, we must also see to it that the root of the evil is eradicated.

Mr Chairman, I want to tell the hon the Deputy Minister that if he repeats those words, with which he started off here, in Rustenburg, I am bidding him farewell this afternoon. [Interjections.]

Order!

I also want to thank the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development for the progress that has been made so far with the establishment of own affairs hospitals. I hope the hon the Minister will continue and ensure that this is carried out strictly.

If one looks at the City Press of 16 April 1989 one sees the following headline: “Activists to resist separate amenities.” I shall quote a short passage from the article:

If the hon the Minister is going to allow these threats to be carried out we can, once again, simply forget about separate hospitals for separate groups. If a person allows himself to be held to ransom, he is a weakling and he will not get anywhere.

This afternoon I want to discuss the occupational disease sufferer and I want to begin with the pension that is being paid at present. The pensions of occupational disease sufferers and their dependents who were certified prior to 1973 were not increased in 1988, and only an amount of R60 per person was paid. There were only 3 383 persons involved, which brought the total amount up to approximately R203 000. These people are having a hard time. If one considers the pensions they are being paid one sees that they are living below the breadline.

There are Blacks as well.

Yes, they are also included.

Everything is becoming more expensive. The pensions widows receive at present amount to only R244. Persons who have been certified up to 50% receive only R181 and if they have retired they cannot live on their incomes. A person with a certified disability of between 50% and 75% is paid an amount of R306, and in the third stage it is R440, and when certified TB is also involved, to whatever degree, they also receive only that amount.

I have a major problem as far as the lump-sum amounts are concerned. Last year I asked the hon the Minister to look into the matter, because the last time lump-sum amounts were increased was in 1986. The hon the Minister was in a very good mood and said he would do so. Unfortunately it has not been done. I pointed out that it would not cost the Government anything because these lump-sum amounts are paid by the employer. I want to make it clear today that the Government is leaving the White and other mineworkers in the lurch. Their interests are not being looked after. To my sorrow I must also say that not one of the NP members who represent mining constituencies said a word about the mineworkers or about the legislation on occupational diseases. [Interjections.]

This afternoon I want to ask the hon the Minister to increase these pensions, as well as the lump-sum amounts. All other pensions were increased by 15% as from 1 January this year, and these people received nothing. It must be down with retrospective effect to 1 January so that they can also receive their fair share.

I come now to certifications. Hon members know that this is an old problem in the mining industry. People are not being certified. Although the law, as it now reads, clearly stipulates that a person who falls into the category of the slightest to a 40% disability is certifiable, this is not being done. The number of people certified in the first stage was only 455 last year. Between the first and second stage it was only 37. There were 47 TB cases. There were 188 post-mortem cases that proved certifiable in the first stage. The post-mortem figure for the second stage was 22. Of the post-mortem cases there were seven in which people were certified as tuberculosis sufferers only after they had died.

The situation cannot carry on in this way. An investigation must be instituted into these certifications that are taking place. Last year, after I had discussed the same matter, the hon member for Parktown jumped to his feet and said that I did not know what I was talking about. I gave him documents and letters from mineworkers who were definitely ill. After he had studied the medical certificates, he agreed with me and said that he was going to take the matter up with the bureau. He came back to me and said it was no use submitting such matters to the Medical Bureau, because it did not want to understand them. [Interjections.]

I want to repeat this. As the Act reads at present a person must become certifiable from the slightest sign up to 40%. Since justice cannot be done to all workers, the request from employees that they should be certified after a number of years’ service should be examined. There has already been a previous request for a person who has worked for 25 years in a dusty occupation to be compensated. A formula was proposed and to this day nothing has been done in this connection. I want to make an appeal to the hon the Minister and say that we must begin somewhere. If it cannot be at 25 or 30 years, perhaps we can do it from the age of 35 or 40. Somewhere a start must be made, because statistics prove that a person contracts pneumoconiosis at the age of 52 years. If a person should die he is certified as having had pneumoconiosis from that age.

I should also like to put a few other questions to the hon the Minister. Firstly I want to know whether he can inform this Committee this afternoon of what progress has been made with the preservation of pensions. By now this is a hardy annual and the time has now arrived for the pension of a person to be preserved and not paid out to him when he changes jobs. This will immediately relieve the tremendous burden which at present rests on the shoulders of the Government. Such a person will then receive a proper pension when he retires.

The hon the Deputy Minister referred quickly in passing to the draft legislation on occupational diseases which has been circulated for comment. I hear there was a great deal of comment, and I should like to ascertain from the hon the Minister whether this legislation is going to be redrafted, and if so, whether it is again going to be sent to the various organisations for comment. I have heard that there is a good deal of dissatisfaction, and that the mining industry submitted more than 16 000 signatures of workers who were not satisfied with the original draft legislation. It is imperative to know what is going to be done in this case.

Another issue which gives rise to concern— the hon the Minister will agree that I discussed this question with him—is the appointment of a director of the Medical Bureau. The director resigned and a search has been in progress for two years—or so I estimate—for a person to be appointed in his place. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, permit me once again to thank those 38 hon members who have taken part in this debate. It is a privilege for me to reply to every hon member’s questions and to comment on what they said.

I firstly wish to thank the hon member for Swartland for the appreciation he expressed for the clinic at Porterville. Owing to the devolution of services, the hospital for infectious diseases at Malmesbury belongs to the local authority and this body is now responsible for the remuneration of the nursing staff. This department subsidises local authorities only on the amount which they claim from us and the claims are submitted on a quarterly basis. When such a claim is submitted, the increases for the nursing staff at the hospital for infectious diseases at Malmesbury will also be included in it. The hon member may feel free to convey this information to them.

I have also replied to the problem of alcoholism, and I do not wish to go into it now.

I am very greatly appreciative of, but nevertheless very greatly concerned at those cases which hon members mentioned of patients who had not been treated with the highest standard of medical ethics and care. I told the hon Deputy Ministers of Health as well as the hon MECs at the National Health Policy Council that any case which a member of Parliament brought to my attention would immediately be investigated by us. For this reason I say once again in this debate that if an hon member knows of a case of a patient anywhere in the country, and feels that it has not been dealt with as one would wish, he must advise me of that immediately, because this is not in the best interests of a profession which does only the best for its patients.

I felt particularly compassionate towards the poor man from Keimoes who lost his last tooth without an injection. If he had lost the others without injections, it would have been all very well, but not his last one.

I have already made mention of the tuberculosis figures and I am very grateful that the hon member studied the annual report thoroughly. He must immediately bring those advisers who are practising politics in his area to my attention. That is not what advisers are there for. Advisers are there to inform people how to have fewer children, and not to engage in party politics.

I wish to thank the hon member for Langlaagte most sincerely. He used a very important phrase. He said that discrimination among doctors was out. I wish to thank him for that. In fact, I picked up a few very important phrases. One of these came from the hon member for Durban North who wanted equal health for all. I agree with that.

†The hon member for Reservoir Hills said that good health should be promoted at all costs. I agree entirely with that. The hon member Mrs Chait said that Aids is the most important disease of modern times. The hon member for Bezuidenhout said that there should be no politics in health. These are quotes which I can recommend all of us to remember.

*I wish to thank the hon member for Langlaagte for what he said, namely that health, education and housing are three very important facets. He referred to the cost of medicines. I just want to refer once again to Dr Wim de Villiers’ investigation. Moreover, I should like to refer to the fact that the department has already conducted many investigations, in conjunction with all the societies, including the pharmaceutical society, in an effort to resolve their problems. I have the greatest appreciation for the community pharmacist. I also have the greatest appreciation for those who now wish to provide the public with medicines at a lower cost. I just wish to tell hon members that I do not have any shares in any medicine business.

†I would like to refer to the hon member for Bayview. I have already alluded to the fact of the SA Medical and Dental Council as far as that is concerned. I agree entirely with him that if we could go to India with a delegation it would be a wonderful thing. He referred to the population development programme and complimented the department on it. I would like to thank him for that.

*The hon member for Pietersburg referred to the concern about the shortage of funds at training hospitals. I have dealt with that. He referred to Namda. I think we must make it very clear once again that there is very little doubt that Namda is a front organisation of the ANC.

He, as well as the hon member for Pinetown, referred to pensions, and he also made mention of the costs of the concessions with regard to buying back service. It is not possible to spell out the financial implications of this clearly at this stage since it is not known precisely how many members are going to buy back service. We know that 7 205 members are, in fact, going to submit applications, but we do not know how many of them are going to buy back service.

In practice, however, it has been found in the past that many of those who apply to buy back service, decide not to do so upon receipt of the quotations. The actuary has, in fact, made a calculation of the burden which this would place on the pension fund if all the officials concerned were to buy back service in accordance with the old formula—that is the formula which prevailed before 21 September 1987. It would come to an amount of approximately R280 million. However, I suspect that the amount will be lower.

The Cabinet has decided that any shortfall in the fund which may arise as a result of the concession, will be addressed at the same time as the global shortfall in the fund is dealt with. Further announcements will be made in this regard once the decisions regarding the findings and recommendations of the interdepartmental advisory committee into this matter have been taken.

The terms of reference of this committee are as follows. The most important aspects to which they are devoting attention, with the assistance of the private sector, are the financial control of the fund, the principle of funding, the investment policy, what section of the private sector may possibly be invested in—this has already been discussed in principle— the financing of differentiated benefits, subscription rates and the administration of the fund. From time to time the committee employs the services of experts in the pensions and financial field and the State Actuary is continually involved in providing guidance and expert advice.

I wish to say in reply to the hon member for Pinetown that we expect to receive the actuarial report shortly. It will be made public and will be made available to anyone who is interested in it. I think it is very important that we should know about this.

However, we must bear in mind what Dr Was-senaar said about the R1 billion over a period of many years. The actuarial report will also bring this to light, but I am grateful that hon members have said that they do not begrudge these officials the concession to buy back service under the old formula.

The hon member also referred to widows’ pensions. I said as early as last year that this was one of the aspects which troubled me most. At present, whenever a public servant who is a pensioner dies, his widow receives only 50% of his pension. There has long been an awareness of the necessity to increase widows’ pensions, and this matter is enjoying high priority. However, it has so far not been possible to make the necessary funds available for this.

Cognizance has, in fact, been taken of the fact that the officials are prepared to make larger contributions to the pension fund in order to finance the costs of an increase. As early as 1985 the actuary found that a considerable increase in members’ subscription rates, namely an increase from 8% to 10,35%, would be required to cover the costs of this in respect of both established and future service. Even then, provision would not have been made for the increase in existing widows’ pensions. This would amount to approximately R121 million per annum. The results of the most recent actuarial evaluation will also throw further light on this.

Rather than giving consideration now to increasing members’ contributions, the proper thing to do is to wait for the actuarial recommendation and to control the financial implications of an increase, in conjunction with the related cost aspect and the recommendations of the interdepartmental advisory committee. I am nevertheless of the opinion that we must do everything in our power to see whether we cannot increase the widows’ pensions.

The hon member referred to Viskor. Upon the transfer of the staff of Viskor to the Public Service Pension Fund on 1 April 1986 an amount equal to the interest of the workers concerned in the assets of this fund, plus interest, was paid over to the State’s pension fund. Where such interest was greater than the amount required to recognise the prior service of all the workers for pension purposes, the difference was paid out to them. These payments were made in accordance with the law, and the department had no say or discretion in the matter. The amounts payable to employees could, of course, vary from one case to the next, depending on each employee’s individual position. I think this is important. This was done beforehand, in accordance with the provisions of their own pension fund. If there is any case in respect of which there is a specific problem, we shall be pleased to look into it.

I now want to come to the registration of medicines. The Zulu medicines to which the hon member referred, are not regulated by the Medicines Control Council because by definition they are not medicines. They are therefore controlled by the Black Administration Act, No 38 of 1927. Offences which come to the department’s attention are referred to the Police. Contained in the list of medicines which hon members gave to me, are some which are recommended to select the best horse at a horse race, and others which I cannot mention here.

Bamboo juice. [Interjections.]

I shall come back to certain other aspects a little later, but first I wish to refer to the hon member for Robertson. He referred to the cost of medicines once again, as well as to the tariffs of doctors. Unfortunately, the hon member could not be here this afternoon. [Interjections.] Oh, there is the hon member. If we look at the consumer price index, and this is 100 points, then it has so far risen to 340 points. Next we must look at the doctors’ fees. There are two sorts of tariffs, namely the statutory tariff and those which are prescribed by the Medical Association of South Africa. These have increased to 223 and 309, which are still way below the consumer price index. I think this is very important. When Dr Wim de Villiers’ report on the price of medicines makes its appearance within a few months’ time, that important aspect will, in my view, once again be resolved to a large extent.

The hon member also referred to those people who are nursed in private hospital wards and who have to pay a great deal of money. The hon member must remember that he does not have to lie in a private ward; that is his choice. He could ask for a bed in another ward. He went on to refer to the common cold and said that it was one of the most important diseases. In fact, the cold virus is the most communicable one, but the hon member can tell his people something important when he returns to his constituency: Colds are passed on by a handshake. The cold germs are on a person’s hand and one transmits them by shaking hands with someone, but not by a kiss. [Interjections.] It is as simple as that.

The hon member for Welkom spoke very knowledgeably about health services. I thank him for having compared them with the best in the world. He referred to a shortage of medical personnel. I agree that we shall have to ensure that the doctors who are trained in South Africa remain in South Africa,’ otherwise we shall probably have to do something about this in the future. We may possibly have to make State bursaries available, instead of subsidising them, so that they can pay back the State bursary if they leave. I think we shall have to take a very close look at the community service which the SA Medical and Dental Council is proposing. We shall have to take a close look at whether it is feasible in practice.

†The hon member for Reservoir Hills is certainly one of the most interesting hon members in this particular committee. He is the only person I know who can converse not only with mosquitoes but also with bacilli. He said so in both his speeches. I shall consult him about that because we need to speak to a particular mosquito, the mosquito anopheles arabiensis, which is causing all the problems, because it is much more virulent than the anopheles gamble. It bites more often. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Reservoir Hills referred to the “hon the Minister for Parktown”.

Member.

No, he said the “hon the Minister of Parktown”. [Interjections.] Remember? It was a slip of the tongue, but I think it was a little Freudian slip. The hon member for Parktown is the only PFP member left, and there may be something in what the hon member for Reservoir Hills said. [Interjections.] I would like, however, to thank the hon member for Parktown for the many occasions when he participated in this debate.

I would like to give the hon member for Reservoir Hills some figures on the improvement in the infant mortality rate. I shall start with the Black community. There it improved from 1975 to 1985 by 24%; and from 1980 to 1985 by 13%. Among the Asian community it improved from 1975 to 1985 by 54%; and from 1980 to 1985 by 34%. So we can go on. The improvement among the Coloured community was 61% and during the last five years by 33%.

What is the latest figure?

The latest figure? It is an improvement of 33%.

No, I mean, what is the figure now?

I only have the figures for the improvements on me. [Interjections.] No, I do not think we should have an argument.

I agree with the hon member where he said good health is a priority to all of us.

There is one important aspect I should like to call the hon member’s attention to. We in South Africa, as far as the diseases diphtheria, cholera and measles are concerned, have already progressed to a level better than the World Health Organisation has set for the year 2000. Rubella, which the hon member referred to, is only important, as the hon member knows, because of the congenital abnormalities it causes when a pregnant woman contracts the disease before ten weeks’ pregnancy. It is not one of those mentioned for compulsory vaccination by the WHO, although we have done a lot already as far as rubella vaccination is concerned. The supply of the vaccine is free to everyone, as hon members know. It is difficult, however, at the present moment to budget for it. Therefore we rather try to stress the fact that tuberculosis, polio, measles—not German measles—diphtheria, tetanus and ptosis and whooping cough are the most important diseases, and of those polio has more or less been eradicated. I agree with the hon member that young girls should be vaccinated against rubella. I hope we shall be able to afford it in future.

*The hon the Deputy Minister of Population Development has, as always, given a very comprehensive and clear explanation of our programme. Whilst I am thanking him, I also wish to thank the hon the Deputy Minister of National Health, not only for their co-operation, but also for the latter hon Deputy Minister’s contribution this afternoon. What was particularly valuable, was not only his elucidation of the Montreal Protocol, but also the wide-ranging attention which he paid to pollution. I thank him for that.

†The hon member for Durban North made a very important contribution as far as the problem of child abuse is concerned. He mentioned the rapid increase in child abuse, the insufficiency of the present Child Care Act to meet this problem satisfactorily, and the lack of preventative measures in this regard.

I am also concerned about this matter and I instituted certain measures even before all the publicity was given to this problem in an effort to prevent and combat child abuse. As hon members are aware child abuse manifests itself in various forms, physical and mental. Hon members must also bear in mind that there are various offences under the common law dealing with matters related to child abuse and not only the Child Care Act can deal with it. Furthermore all child offences are not necessarily criminal offences. For this reason each case must be dealt with according to its own unique circumstances which may not always necessarily involve legal prosecution.

Measures instituted by me to deal more effectively with this matter include firstly the National Family Programme for our country. By approving this programme the Government confirmed the high priority it attaches to healthy family life. This programme became absolutely necessary in view of numerous signs of family disorganisation such as the high divorce rate, child abuse and family violence. The implementation of the programme has been assigned to the South African Welfare Council and the regional Welfare Boards. A standing committee on social legislation—a subcommittee of the interdepartmental consultative committee on social welfare matters and consisting of representatives of both the private and public sectors—is at present giving attention to the revision of the Child Care Act, which the hon member asked us to do. The committee is considering several requests for the amendment to the Act with regard to child protection and child abuse. Proposed amendments will however not be submitted to Parliament during this session. It may delay other corrections to the Act which are at present under consideration. So far, then, as regards the contribution of the hon member for Durban North.

The hon member for Tafelberg is not present, but I will deal with her problem when I see her. I have already dealt with the registration of doctors.

*I wish to thank the hon member for Stilfontein for his very sensible and important contribution on Aids and the reasons as to why prostitution cannot be legalised. I just want to mention to the hon member that there is perhaps one aspect which we could, in fact, think of, seeing as the hon member for Heidedal also spoke about the same subject of sailors and prostitutes. I shall give serious consideration to the possibility of appointing the hon members for Stilfontein and Heidedal as a two-man commission with regard to this matter. It may possibly bear fruit. [Interjections.] These two hon members are without a doubt the two most knowledgeable hon members on the subject in this House. There is no doubt about that. [Interjections.] I therefore wish to thank the hon member for having explained the matter so well. I am very grateful for that.

The hon member for Griqualand West referred to Aids, which I have already discussed. I shall come to the poor ambulance service a little later on, but I want to say once again that he should please draw my attention to any instances in his constituency which are giving rise to problems.

Before I come to the hon member for Houghton, I just want to say that I am afraid that time is catching up on me, but there is a problem which I should just like to discuss quickly with the hon member for Witbank. I agree with the hon member for Witbank’s statement that we must take a very close look at the cases of psychiatric indications for therapeutic abortion. I wish to tell hon members now that there is only one psychiatric indication, namely endogenic depression— not reactive depression, but endogenic depression. Since the hon member has spoken so well about population development, I simply must avail myself of the opportunity to quote from the Patriot of 17 March. I quote what the hon member for Pietersburg said here:

I wish to tell the hon member for Pietersburg that this is just as impossible as the partition policy. [Interjections.] It is just as impossible, and it is not going to work. It has not worked anywhere in the world. The parents themselves decide on this. [Interjections.]

†I have only five minutes left for the hon member for Houghton.

That is all right, because that is all I had as well.

I will do it quickly. I will say “unfortunately not.” [Interjections.] I will tell the hon member for Houghton, if she will just listen for a moment, that it is very effective. The hon member suggested abortion as part of the population development programme on family planning.

It is very effective to kill off foetuses, very effective! Why does one not kill off babies? That is even more effective. This Government will not allow abortion on demand and will not allow the abortion of normal foetuses. That is final.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

I do not have enough time.

Do you know how many backstreet abortions take place in this country— over 18 000!

I should like to tell the hon member for Diamant that I appreciated his contribution. I shall speak to him about Aids later.

Mr Chairman, there is a continuous muttering from the hon member for Houghton here to my left!

†I agree with the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central about the old age homes in Port Elizabeth. There was an incidence of tuberculosis of 798 per 100 000. The information appeared, if I remember correctly, in the South African Medical Journal of 6 August 1988. We are looking into the matter.

*Thank you very much to the hon member for Schauderville for his contribution.

†The hon member said he was talking philosophically. I must tell him that my heart bleeds for him. The DP does not want to take him into their party. My heart bleeds for him!

*I wish to conclude with a very important announcement with regard to a matter which the hon member for Wellington raised. Farm workers are now going to be afforded the opportunity to obtain a servitude of occupation on the farms on which they work. The Council for Population Development will release the details shortly. I have made arrangements with the South African Housing Trust. This is going to cause a revolution in farm housing, because in this way the farm worker will be able to accumulate capital and obtain a better house. This is being financed by the South African Housing Trust. The first farm town will be constructed in the Ceres area. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr Chairman, it has been a great privilege to reply to everyone. This has been a debate of outstanding quality and I wish to thank every participant most sincerely.

Mr Chairman, I wish to associate myself with those hon members who referred to the imminent retirement of the Director-General, Mr Gerrie Van Zyl. He will retire at the end of August this year after a long career of more than 43 years.

I would like to take this opportunity to honour this outstanding officer and exceptional man. Mr Van Zyl started his career in the Department of Home Affairs in the Government Printer. He held several top positions in the Public Service. He has been inter alia Chief Public Service Inspector and secretary to the Commission for Administration. He has served in the managements of several important bodies such as the Manpower Council and the Committee of Administrative Experts for the Drafting of an Interim Government for South West Africa. In view of his expertise he was made available to the Government of Malawi in 1970 to undertake the reorganisation of several government departments. The inspection of South African missions in thirteen countries was also entrusted to him, and in 1981 he represented the Republic of South Africa in Japan at the International Conference for Administrative Sciences. He has held the post of Director-General since 1984.

*Mr Van Zyl is one of the most experienced officials in the Public Service. He is a clever strategist and he is exceptionally astute. I honour him for his extraordinary helpfulness and the wonderful support I received from him throughout. The great diligence with which he performed every task was infectious, not only in my case, but also in that of his officials. He sets and maintains high standards. He is a big man, not only in posture, but also in spirit. His attitude of being accessible and of rendering service under the most difficult circumstances, is well-known. Faithfully and loyally supported by his wife, he is well-loved both inside and outside his department. I thank him for being the great gentleman he is, and I thank him for what he has done for the department, the Public Service and South Africa.

The hon member for Overvaal devoted the greater part of his speech to delimitation, which in his opinion must take place before an election can be held. The hon member for Gezina and other hon members replied to that, and I want to put it to the hon member for Overvaal that his arguments are really short-sighted and do not serve the interests of the South African electorate. He tried to indicate that delimitation is necessary now in order to rectify an imbalance between the provinces. We know there is an imbalance between the provinces.

And in the provinces.

This fact appears clearly from the report of the Joint Committee on the Constitution, which investigated inter alia the redistribution of constituencies among the provinces. An amending Bill on the Constitution was submitted to Parliament in this connection. As hon members know, that draft Bill has not been passed to this day.

A delimitation on the existing legal allocations at this stage will mean that we shall have to live with this imbalance for another five years, because the minimum period between delimitations is five years. A delimitation on the present number of constituencies and provincial allocations therefore does not properly address the problem. The Government wants to address the problem to its full extent.

I also want to point out to the hon member that the feasibility of a delimitation, and the implementation thereof before the general election takes place at the beginning of March at the latest, is not as much of a foregone conclusion as the hon member professed. We considered it seriously. The fact is that it will not be practically possible. I thank the hon member for his fine words about the department and its officials.

The hon nominated member Mr Lockey showed once again that he has a level-headed approach to contentious issues. The problem of group definitions broached by him cannot be dealt with in isolation. The Government regards this matter as part of a bigger problem with reference to the accommodation of groups and the protection of their rights.

The hon the Acting State President, as well as the hon the leader-in-chief of the NP, raised new ideas about this complex problem at the beginning of the session. The debate is in progress. We must all think about this and take part in it in a positive fashion. In view of this, I am pleased about the hon member’s positive contribution, in contrast with the complete denial of the complexity of the problem displayed by a number of other hon members.

The hon member asked me how much progress had been made with the South African Law Commission’s investigation into the legalisation of Islamic marriages. This matter really falls under the Department of Justice. I made enquiries, however, and it was reported to me that the matter is being investigated and that they expect a report shortly. I refer the hon member to page 15 of the Law Commission’s most recent annual report.

With reference to the hon member’s question about the financing of the imminent general election, I merely want to say that the department never includes an election in its budget. It is the prerogative of the hon the State President to announce an election and as soon as this has taken place, the necessary steps will be taken to ensure that sufficient funds are available for this extremely important democratic process that has to take place.

I want to reassure the hon member Mr Lockey that where mention is made of political parties in the Elections and Identification Amendment Bill, the reference is to a registered political party. The hon member also referred to the freedom of the Press, and I should like to hear the reaction of the hon member for Johannesburg North to the following statement.

In principle the Government endorses freedom of the Press. I had expected some reaction from the hon member …

I am laughing!

… and I think I am making some progress. Just like other freedoms, freedom of the Press is not an unbridled freedom. As soon as freedom is expressed in the wrong way, the necessity for control emerges. When freedom of the Press is expressed in such a way that its effect endangers public order or the public’s security, measures to combat this are really essential.

There must not be any misunderstanding about this. Even the international community is ad idem that freedom of the Press is not a licence to promote violence. In this connection I should like to refer hon members to section 20 of the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights which ensued from the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. Hon members would do well to take a look at that document.

The hon member for Umlazi apologised for his absence. I want to thank him in his absence for his constructive contribution, especially with regard to the Central Statistical Service. I should like to agree with him that the Central Statistical Service renders a valued and in fact indispensable public service, and also that this service is rendered efficiently and unobtrusively. Their reports are always ready, however. I am grateful that this service enjoys high esteem in general. The chief director and his staff deserve every praise for that.

The hon member also referred to cases in which reservations have been expressed from certain quarters about the reliability of certain economic statistics, especially with regard to the consumer price index and the derived inflation rate. I want to make so bold as to add that this is a transparent attempt to get at the Government by trying to create a credibility gap in this way.

†The hon member Mr Seedat commented positively on the department’s annual report, as did the hon member for Hercules. I agree with the hon members in giving credit to the Director-General and the staff for an informative and comprehensive report. The hon member Mr Seedat also referred to the work done by the Directorate of Publications and expressed appreciation for the work done by this body in stemming the tide of undesirable material aimed at our country. I thank him for his interest in this very important body.

As regards his comments on work and study permits for students, the hon member requested that I again look into the policy regarding the admission to the Republic of undergraduate Islamic students from neighbouring countries. I have taken note of the hon member’s statement that such students will not be a financial burden on the State. I am sympathetically disposed towards the hon member’s representations and I will once again look into this matter.

The hon member for Green Point complained about the lack of preferential treatment in South African law for foreigners marrying South African citizens. The hon member indicated that South Africa is out of step with international practice. I propose making a careful study of the subject, but I cannot agree in every respect with the hon member’s arguments. According to information which I have obtained since last night, it is clear that there are several countries where an alien spouse is not entitled to any preferential treatment in this regard. The examples given to me were West Germany and Australia. However, I have noted the hon member’s arguments and I will give them serious consideration.

I think the hon member for Green Point picked a very poor example to prove his point. The case he referred to is that of a deserter from a ship who, like others of his breed, are internationally prohibited persons. My Director-General, in a Press statement dated 3 February 1989, elucidated this case fully. I have tabled the Press statement in a reply to the hon member’s question in Parliament. From that statement it is clear that the sympathy aroused by the hon member for this couple is not really well-founded. However, I do not say that the hon member has all the facts of this particular case. I would not like to refer to the particulars, but I would be very happy to give them to the hon member, if he so wishes.

*I want to say in general that I sincerely want to thank those hon members who spoke about the department’s preparations with regard to the coming general election and who emphasised the importance of updating the voters’ lists. I want to emphasise that during the imminent general election we shall have to contend with many inexperienced officials, and despite the good training they are going to receive, the support they receive from hon members and people from all parties who are involved in the election will be of great value in facilitating this process. I am also referring in this connection to the hon member Mr Kritzinger, the hon member Mr Aucamp, as well as the hon member for Over vaal, the hon member for Umlazi and the hon member for Gezina. They are all hon members who have considerable experience of elections and who probably know more than all the other hon members together here in the Chamber— and they know all the tricks.

†The hon member for Newholme referred to the large number of Indian films from India which afford a very important cultural link with India, mother country of so many Indians living in South Africa. He expressed appreciation towards the Directorate of Publications for applying a procedure of exemption in clearing these films for distribution in the Indian community. However, I think it should be stressed that such exemption is only granted once the films have been examined by publications committees, as required by the Publications Act. I wish to share his appreciation for the work done in this regard by Indian members on the panel in Durban, and I hope that enough qualified men and women will make themselves available for this task when applications are called for later this year.

*The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke enquired about the control exercised by the department in granting citizenship to Blacks. Obviously I cannot give the hon member the full details here of the procedure that is adopted in determining whether or not a person qualifies. I can assure the hon member, however, that my department gives very careful consideration to each case in which someone applies for an identity document as a South African citizen. I should like to issue an invitation to the hon member, when he visits Pretoria again, to go and see the Chief Director: Civic Affairs, Mr M P Lombaard. Mr Lombaard would be happy to inform him on the matter in detail and would be prepared to show him where the final control and processing of identity documents takes place.

We must remember that the mere possession of an identity document does not mean that a person is a South African citizen. Identity documents are also issued to foreigners who have permanent residence in South Africa. I would appreciate it if the hon member could refer the cases he mentioned to my department for investigation. I also want to tell him that regardless of whether contract workers have any right to own property or not, they cannot qualify for South African citizenship in any way.

The hon member for Gezina, who has official duties elsewhere, made a well-considered speech. I thank him for his valid argument on why delimitation cannot take place now. I want to give the hon member the assurance that his proposal that delimitation for the House of Assembly should be postponed to a later date should receive serious consideration. The department will also do its utmost to make the change of address cards to which he referred available at all strategic points.

I support the hon member’s request that the Elections and Identification Amendment Bill should apply during the coming general election. I trust that hon members will support the Bill when it comes before Parliament one of these days.

The hon member for Rust Ter Vaal requested the abolition of the Population Registration Act, because that Act has resulted in a divided South Africa and because it denigrates people’s human dignity. I spoke about this in the House of Representatives last year. Since it is appropriate, I want to repeat what I said then, and I quote:

In this connection I also want to refer to what the leader-in-chief of the NP said on 8 February of this year during the discussion of the hon the Acting State President’s speech. I quote:

This challenge brings us to a new phase in the reform process in South Africa. We shall all have to think of and seek solutions together. The mere abolition of legislation without placing anything in its stead will not lead to a Utopia.

†I am sure that the hon member for Groote Schuur took note of what I have just said. I again want to emphasise that I do not agree with his simplistic approach towards the issue of group accommodation in the Republic. As far as the obtaining of information from the Population Register is concerned, the hon member is referred to section 17 of the Identification Act where the secrecy of information in that register is protected.

*The hon member for Robertson referred to the problem of subjectivity. He also referred to emphasis and lack of comprehensiveness in reports in certain newspapers. This is a problem that is as old as the Press itself. If there are complaints, however, they can be referred to the Media Council. One is pleased to see that more and more is being done. I merely want to thank the hon member for quoting me correctly in that the emergency measures do not prohibit criticism against the Government.

The hon member also asked why not only those newspapers that transgress were restricted by the emergency regulations. The fact is that one does not know in advance which newspaper is going to transgress the regulations. The Press regard themselves as indivisible. One also cannot introduce two sets of control measures. The hon member’s proposal would amount to the introduction of double standards—one set for the conventional commercial Press and another for the alternative Press. The hon member must also note that the emergency regulations are concerned with the effect of what is published, not with who publishes it.

Allow me at this stage to thank the Press in general sincerely for the exceptional service that is rendered to South Africa every day. One cannot do the Press any greater disfavour than to generalise about the Press in the negative sense. Just like any other institution, the Press has its wilful members, but that should not be extended to the Press in general. In fact, South Africa can count itself lucky to be served by such a competent and experienced Press.

I have already referred to the contribution made by the hon member Mr Aucamp. He broached a very important issue, viz the use of more than one polling station in a constituency that has many voters. Insofar as this is to the advantage of the voters, the department intends to implement his suggestion.

†The hon member for Cavendish complained about delays in finalising applications for study permits from Sri Lankan students. Applications of this nature are normally dealt with expeditiously, provided that they are complete in all respects. If the hon member could pass on the information I would gladly investigate.

The hon member also raised the issue of South African Indian women marrying abroad. No distinction is made between a South African male or female who marries abroad, but it must be remembered that any non-citizen must comply with immigration procedures. All such applications are considered on merit by the autonomous Immigrants’ Selection Board.

*The hon member for Hercules did have an opportunity to talk about the Government Printing Works this year, and I should like to thank him for the appreciation he expressed in respect of the 100-year-old institution. I agree with him that one need only look at the printed documents here in Parliament, and all the forms and other printed material that are used during a general election, to see what an important contribution the Government Printing Works makes to the country. The recognition given to the Government Printer and his staff by all hon members yesterday is endorsed by everyone here.

†The hon member for Karee wanted to know what constituted subversive matter. The subversive statements which are prohibited are clearly listed in the Media Emergency Regulations. It is not difficult to find them, because they are listed in an official published document. The effect of the systematic or repetitive publication of subversive propaganda is also addressed by the Media Emergency Regulations.

The hon member also wanted to know why the publication of subversive propaganda is not referred to the courts of law. I have already dealt with this in many other debates, but I want to reiterate that our existing laws do not make provision for the effective curtailment of subversive propaganda. A careful investigation was conducted before these measures were introduced. To engage in extensive legal procedures which might take months, if not years, whilst the publisher continues to publish subversive propaganda, most certainly is not effective.

I also wish to thank the hon member for the interest he has shown in the subject of publications control. First of all I would like to remind him that the Directorate of Publications is a statutory body. As far as invitations to national organisations to make comments on the efficacy of the Publications Act are concerned, this was done by means of a press statement and came about as a result of concern expressed about moral issues and definitely not because of political ones. Consequently the response came from churches and welfare organisations.

The Publications Act prescribes precisely how committees are appointed on an ad hoc basis from a panel of persons appointed by me every three years after applications have been invited by means of advertisements in the Press. Panel members must necessarily have qualifications which will equip them for the task they have to carry out. Publications committees are integrated, as is the Publications Appeal Board and the staff of the directorate. In view of the hon member’s interest in publication control I would suggest that he approach the Director of Publications to obtain first-hand information.

Mr Chairman, I join those hon members who have congratulated the hon member for Innesdal on his appointment to the position of ambassador to The Hague. The hon member is known affectionately—certainly by our party—as “our Albert”. We will miss him a great deal and we wish him a happy and a successful stay in that part of the world. At the same time we wish the hon member for Umlazi well in his position as chairman of the joint committee. We have worked with him for some time and have no doubt that we will find it of value to work with him in the future.

Then I join those who have thanked the senior members of staff in the department, namely Mr Van Zyl, Mr Tredoux and Mr Van der Merwe, for their assistance. They are of great assistance to us during the course of the year when we take our problems to them. We are most grateful to them for their assistance. I also want to thank Mr Swart in the hon the Minister’s department. I join the hon the Minister in wishing Mr Van Zyl a long and happy retirement. Hopefully he will have many happy years of relaxing and enjoying whatever he intends doing.

There are a number of issues I wish to raise. The first concerns the issuing of passports. We in our party believe that it is the inalienable right of all citizens to be issued passports. Over many years the NP has abused this right as a tool to manipulate the movement of individuals. We believe this to be a denial of fundamental rights which has caused many prominent and valuable South Africans to leave this country on exit permits. The emphasis appears to have changed over recent years and not many of the “Hoffen-bergs” of this country have had to leave on exit permits.

While there have been fewer exit permits, there have been a number of entry permits which were unfortunately granted. Crooks like Palazzolo and Ricci were allowed into this country— mainly, one thinks, because of their support for the NP. Nevertheless, according to the report of the department, 214 applications for passports were refused in 1988. It may be a small percentage of the 231 882 passports issued during the course of the year but it is still far too many as it affected those 214 individuals who had wanted to travel and who then had their travel plans thwarted and frustrated by the denial of a passport. It is an inroad into the civil liberties of individuals and it happens mainly in totalitarian societies and banana republics.

Having said that, I want to thank the hon the Minister for his sympathetic approach to particular applicants when one approaches him to exercise his discretion. It is the policy of the NP to restrict the movements of particular individuals but I wish to place on record that the hon the Minister is willing to lend a sympathetic ear to certain appeals and I want him to know that this is much appreciated.

While on the subject of passports, I wish to say a few words about the population register which is based on racial lines and is therefore repugnant to us. The hon member for Groote Schuur yesterday raised the issue of the racial identity of individuals being recorded in the population register even though it has been excluded from the identity number.

We reject the idea of classifying individuals racially and would hope that this system will be abolished once we reach a situation where race is no longer a factor and where free association is permitted. We would hope that that day will come sooner rather than later.

In addition to the racial identification of individuals in the population register we also have the system of the recording of fingerprints. At the time of the introduction of the Identification Bill we made it clear that we were opposed to the concept of fingerprinting as it was regarded as an invasion of privacy. There has been no reason for us to have changed our minds on this issue. I am therefore appalled to see in the annual report that there are 20 399 543 sets of fingerprints on record.

It was mentioned at the time of the introduction of the Bill that the only other countries who pursued this concept were Spain and Portugal in Europe and certain of the military dictatorships in South America. I raise this issue at this time because I hope that attention will be given to the total abolition of compulsory fingerprinting.

The hon the Minister mentioned freedom of the Press and I just want to make a comment on the question of media control. We debated this fully earlier this year when the hon member for Sandton introduced a private member’s motion in the House of Assembly.

We have no doubt that it is the right of every individual South African to be informed of what is taking place in this country. I was therefore most disappointed to hear, in answer to a question yesterday in the House of Assembly, that more than R1 million is to be spent by this department to monitor the media. This is another NP programme to squander the taxpayers’ money on controlling the thought processes of all our citizens. [Interjections.] It is typical of the Government that almost every department has a percentage of its budget earmarked to enforce a policy rejected by the majority of the people of this country.

I want to say a few words about the coming general election and the department’s programme to update the voters’ lists. Like my colleague the hon member for Green Point, I wish to express my regret that there will be no delimitation before the general election. It has been ten years since there has last been a delimitation and there are great imbalances in the number of voters in each constituency. Some hon NP members have made a point of mentioning that imbalances appear in the number of voters in constituencies in countries like England and Australia or in other parts of the democratic world. This is not the point. While it is impossible to get an absolutely perfect balance in the number of voters in each constituency, it is, however, important to attempt to redefine constituencies on a more regular basis. If England is to be used as an example then what hon NP members have failed to mention, is that the boundaries are redrawn every single year and there is not this great a gap between delimitations.

This year the problem has been that the NP and the hon the State President have been unable to agree on a united programme of action and that each has been attempting to have his own particular point of view accepted. We therefore have the unsatisfactory situation where we have an election without a delimitation and, unless the situation is changed, we will have a delimitation next year. As the hon member for Umlazi correctly put it, we could very well have byelections in constituencies that have disappeared. It is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs, but then most things the NP does are unsatisfactory.

The hon the Minister mentioned the programme to be conducted by the department to encourage voters to ensure that their addresses are correctly registered on the voters’ lists. A similar programme was undertaken towards the end of 1986 and was most successful in that a large number of addresses were brought up to date. We will support such a programme as long as it is not undertaken by the Bureau for Information, which will no doubt give it a political twist.

We will support the programme as it will lighten the burden of the department and the political parties during the election campaign because it will reduce the number of special and postal votes. The programme is important as it will educate the public as to the importance of ensuring that their addresses are correct.

In this connection I want to say a few words about the Elections and Identification Amendment Bill. The joint committee sat for a long time and gave a great deal of attention to the question of changes of addresses and many other important matters affecting the Electoral Act. The Bill which is being introduced, deals with two main matters only. The first is the question of changes of addresses and the second is the important matter of changes in the system of postal voting. All the other matters considered had been put to one side and a recommendation has been made that the joint committee should be reassembled.

Yesterday during the course of his opening remarks the hon the Minister made mention of the enormous workload of the department. If this Bill is approved during the current session of Parliament—I want to suggest that the passage of the Bill should be delayed until after the election—I believe it will be an unbearable load on a small number of officials in the department to handle these amendments during the short time which is available to us before the general election. We value the role of the department in administering elections in the impartial and helpful manner they do. However, we believe that this will be a burden they will not be able to handle adequately. [Interjections.] Elections have been held for many years without these amendments and I see no urgency to hurry them through Parliament at this stage. [Interjections.]

I hear an hon member talking about postal votes. I am as aware of the problem regarding postal votes as those hon members are. If one thinks of what happened in the constituency of Hillbrow during the last general election, one certainly does not want that sort of behaviour to be repeated. I am sure that the NP members are quite aware of what happened in the Hillbrow constituency, and I certainly do not want that to happen. I would urge that we reconsider this Bill. It is a load that will be placed on the department. We have had elections for many years without these amendments and it might be appropriate to give the matter a great deal of thought after the election and then take into account all those other suggestions that have also been made.

Mr Chairman, in the short period of time available to me, allow me to race through the congratulations to the hon member for Innesdal on his promotion, namely his appointment as Ambassador to the Netherlands, and to wish the Chief Director a rewarding and happy retirement. I also congratulate the officials for all the good work that has been done in this department.

With a view to the forthcoming elections, may I also unearth some of the difficulties that were experienced by us during the last elections. Elections are marred by corrupt practices emanating from identification procedures in respect of votes. It is evident that overzealous and ambitious candidates and agents, in their lust for votes, abuse identification. I believe persons without proper identification deciding to vote, should only be permitted to do so if they have sworn statements attested to at a police station— that is, if his or her document is lost. Without such proof they should not be identified by another voter. Our previous experiences in Ton-gaat and Lenasia Central have given us enough ammunition to testify that this is a corrupt practice.

Going through this report, I observe that comprehensive training programmes are conducted which ensure that functional and administrative training take place on a purposeful, organised and continuous basis. Bursaries are granted by the Commission for Administration to persons undertaking post-school study, including postgraduate courses at universities. I am anxious to ascertain from the hon the Minister why, in almost all the courses and seminars offered, those concerned are overwhelmingly Whites. Please do not get me wrong; I do not want to be dubbed racist. The information in this report is self-sufficient. Is it that employees in the department other than White do not apply for such courses and training, or is it that such employees other than White are not offered such courses, or is it that employees other than White are not capable of undergoing such courses and training?

I know that the hon the Minister always maintains that he is colour-blind as far as equal opportunities to all people in South Africa are concerned. However the information in this report does not augur well. To quote from figures relating to formal training courses, of the 60 officers attending the National Diploma in Public Administration, 30 are Blacks and 30 Whites. In the case of the National Diploma in State Accounts and Finance, of the three, all three are Whites. In the case of the Diploma in Public Administration, of the three, all three are Whites. As regards university degrees, of the 51, 14 are Blacks and 37 are Whites. In the case of the courses in Public Management, of the 11, all 11 are Whites.

There is a host of other courses, but let me highlight a few more of the very interesting ones in respect of which there are only Whites. As regards training courses, of the three, all three are Whites. In the case of instructors’ courses, of the 51, three are Blacks and 48 are Whites. In the case of the Consular Assistant’s course, of the five, all five are Whites. As regards Financial Administration seminars, of the 513, all 513 are Whites. In computer training, of the 55, all 55 are Whites.

This gross discrimination, as I might call it, does not augur well for the present situation in South Africa if the Government is going to advance the reform programme. I therefore ask the hon the Minister to have a very careful look at this anomaly and if there is any way in which it can be adjusted, to ensure that all employees are given the opportunity to attend those courses, or are allowed the opportunity to apply for such courses. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member who has just resumed his seat will forgive me if I do not react to his contribution. I should very much like to come to the contribution of the hon member for Johannesburg North, and say at once that my side of the House is quite satisfied with the way in which this department arranges work permits, passports, visitors’ permits and temporary work permits in this country of ours.

The entire matter of the arranging of passports and other permits which I have mentioned, is obviously not the easiest work to do. The attitude and objectives of persons when they visit this country are not necessarily always clear from what they put down on paper.

I cannot find any fault either with the follow-up work done in connection with them, nor with the follow-up work done in connection with the quality of the work appearing under their name in whatever media. The department acted correctly under the guidance of the hon the Minister during the past year, and the peace and quiet we are enjoying in this sphere is directly connected to the success which we have had in this sphere. I want to thank the hon the Minister and the department sincerely for the way in which they handled this.

Many of the people who came here did not come here in terms of the Media Code of South Africa, or even the code of the international media which was published last year. We cannot call them anything but traders in second hand journalistic scrap, which they come and exhibit here with no other purpose than to unleash revolution. They have no other objective than to plunge this country of ours into revolution and chaos. The worse the chaos is, the worse the resistance is, the more arson there is, the more stone-throwing there is, the more there is to report and the more our country can be disparaged abroad.

I repeat that it was correct for us to take steps against them in this way. We are grateful that we have got rid of many of these people. This is reflected in the refusals of this kind of documentation. In 1988 far fewer were refused—I think it was 15 compared to something like 218 in 1987, if I remember correctly. In other words, the discipline we enforced worked. It was successful and we are asking the hon the Minister to carry on with this. Similarly I have no fault to find with the control being applied and the way in which the Press and what is said abroad, are being monitored.

It is very interesting to note in the research into the activities of the department that in the past year a new by-product or underground product has developed in respect of what we effectively combatted in 1987. Some of these people no longer entered our country under the banner of the media, but came here as tourists who enjoyed the freedom of our country, who enjoyed its hospitality, who enjoyed its attractions, and who enjoyed its food and drink. They then collected material from surrogate film makers, knocked it together overseas with distorted soundtracks and marketed it as the truth about our country. It is execrable defrauding of the hospitality of a country if someone comes here as a tourist and then abuses the freedom he enjoyed here in this way. I do not mind the dissemination of the truth about our country, but if people treat our country in this dubious way they must be removed.

Another matter which is worrying me is that these surrogates are South African citizens. These surrogates are Whites. Most of them are Whites. The ones who are suffering in this entire process are without exception the deprived communities who must battle from day to day to have a roof over their heads and clothes to wear, and must hunt for food simply to have enough to eat every day. These are the people who must pay the big price for unrest in this total onslaught. I think it is hypocritical to live off our country in this way and at the same time incite people here, as if they will straighten out our country according to world norms. This is repugnant and I cannot dissociate myself from it more strongly than in the language I have used here.

In conclusion I should like to say something to the department about identity documents. I think the department is to be congratulated on the scope of the programme to issue identity documents in South Africa. I was really surprised at the number of identity documents which have already been issued to Whites, Coloureds and Asiatics. I was also surprised at the number which have been issued to Blacks at this stage.

There is great concern in our country about the influx of people from neighbouring countries, particularly via the Eastern Transvaal. The influx of foreign citizens across our borders is, however, no longer restricted to the Eastern Transvaal. They are in our metropolises now. We sympathise with these people who have entered the country from outside owing to the misery in which they were living. However, these people enter our country as supplanters, of the large labour-seeking group in our country too. I am sorry, but I must look after my own unemployment and weigh it up against the needs of those people. If they are supplanting our own workers, we must start giving serious consideration to the compulsory carrying of identity documents as a form of control.

When are we really going to use the identity document as a compulsory document which I carry on my person and have with me every day to produce on request? Apart from the fact that it can control influx, it can also serve a very good purpose, particularly if one’s address can also be checked with the assistance of the identity document. If it becomes a document which is used every day in business, wherever a contract is needed, wherever money changes hands and if the identity document is going to be used in that way, and the address can also be checked in that way, we are going to make this document very functional and it will help to combat great irregularities in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, we are on the eve of a general election. I therefore wish to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister and his department problems which occur during an election, in the hope that many of these problems can be overcome in the future. Before dealing with that matter, I would like to refer to the Elections and Identification Amendment Bill. I believe quite a few favourable amendments have been made to the Bill. However, we need some clarification on one or two issues. I would like to raise them here so that when this Bill does come up for discussion at a later stage, we could have the answers to them.

I would like to refer to the application for special votes, clause 58, which amends section 84(a) of the principal Act and makes provision for the production of an identity document or identity certificate on which a voter’s photograph appears. It is stated here that one cannot vote as a special voter if one does not have these two particular documents. I believe that in many instances people, although they have been issued with identity documents, have lost them and are unable to secure another document in time. Therefore the clause that was originally omitted should be brought back.

I would also like to refer to clause 22(c), which amends section 45(4) of the principal Act. In many areas we find that the electoral officer may not be very well disposed towards the candidates, or a party, and when it comes to the establishment of polling stations which are perhaps not to the satisfaction of the particular candidates, we should have the right of appeal to the chief electoral officer.

Clause 57, which amends section 83, with reference to section 82(5), of the principal Act does not state the starting time for the casting of special votes. We also have a problem in certain areas in that during the lunch hour polling booths are closed for the casting of special votes and we suggest that either a skeleton staff is appointed for the lunch hour or some other arrangement is made to accommodate those persons. Is the old identity card, the little green card, still acceptable as a means of identification?

A further problem that we have with regard to an election concerns the putting up of election posters. We find that in certain rural areas the town councils refuse to allow this in terms of our situation. The particular candidates want to have their posters put up in the towns, because many of the people leave the township areas to work in the towns. Candidates would at the same time like to have their posters put up in these particular areas.

Although the hon the Minister has previously referred to the teaching of staff with regard to election procedures, I wish to refer to this in any case. I wish to start with the appointment of staff to man different polling stations, that is the returning officer and his staff. The appointment of staff to administer elections has always been a controversial issue, more so in the rural areas and especially with regard to elections for the House of Representatives. It has been my experience that persons appointed to administer the elections—and they are always from the White sector—are often ill-disposed towards our community. It must be borne in mind that these persons were well paid for the job. They were either housewives or pregnant housewives, who were miserable or irritable, or relatives of the returning officer. Therefore, whenever a problem arose, these persons were always favoured in spite of their being in the wrong. The returning officer who was appointed was the local magistrate in most cases. He was always too busy with his own magisterial duties so that he could not immediately attend to problems that arose. If he was not well disposed towards a political party, then certain problems cropped up.

Another problem that does arise is due to the fact that the returning officers and their staff are not always au fait with election procedures and/or the Electoral Act. They very often gave their own controversial interpretations. A case in point was the by-election at Ceres, where the returning officer, who was the assistant magistrate, refused to mark the ballot paper after the applicants indicated that they were illiterate and that they wished to vote for a particular party. The Act is quite specific that where a person is unable to read and/or write, the returning officer, in the presence of representatives of candidates, shall mark the ballot paper in the appropriate place, as requested by the voter. This has lead to long drawn-out arguments as to the interpretation of the said section. In some instances voting had to be temporarily suspended until consultation had taken place with the chief electoral officers.

Magistrates who act as returning officers and their staff, who work in magistrate’s courts, are often the same persons appointed to assist at polling stations. In the small towns in the rural areas these people have a very intimidating effect on the local community at the polling stations. I have had occasion to request the dismissal of persons from their posts at polling stations. On another occasion I discovered that clerks were fraternising with candidates and their staff in the pubs, and thereby acting in a biased and prejudiced manner at the polling stations.

These persons were also dismissed. It is my contention, as well as that of my party, that responsible persons should be appointed to these very important positions. They should have a positive attitude and also be au fait with electoral procedures and the Electoral Act. I am sure this would contribute to a smooth running of the polling stations.

Another problem is the placing of polling stations, especially as far as special votes are concerned. I believe that these stations must be located or placed with the convenience of the voter in mind. In Pretoria, for example, voters had to be transported out of the township of Eersterus right into the city which is about 10 km away. Hon members who know Pretoria will know how busy that city is. Parking is virtually out of the question. Many special voters were elderly or disabled. They were expected to climb stairs and use lifts.

In today’s elections special votes are cast by many people and time is of the essence. Voters cannot be delayed continuously. Transport and fuel are expensive commodities and polling stations should therefore be located within easy reach of the voter. I wish to recommend that the location of polling stations be very carefully considered with the convenience of the voting public in mind. They should be placed at suitable venues.

A further problem which does arise is the large-scale intimidation of the voting public. This is of great concern to both voters and candidates. Intimidation is more prevalent in the cities than in rural areas. Nevertheless, ways and means will have to be found to combat this particular evil. Threatening and intimidating people is certainly not democracy. There are many forms of intimidation. It can be done through pamphleteering by various radical groups, or slogans that are scrawled on garden walls, buildings etc.

The October municipal elections have come and gone. Still one sees “Don’t vote” and other slogans scrawled on walls. The City Council of Cape Town, for instance, has taken steps to continuously clean up these slogans in the White areas. This activity was paid for out of municipal funds. A case in point is Bishopscourt where Archbishop Desmond Tutu lives. However, nothing has been done to remove the slogans in our areas. I think the hon the Minister’s department should, in consultation with the various municipal authorities, tackle this particular problem.

During the municipal election campaign a lot of advertising was done on radio and TV to urge people to vote. I feel the time has come that, in order to promote and stimulate greater interest in the community to participate in the elections, the various policies and views of political parties should be advertised and debated on radio and television, rather than using squirrels. Television, especially, is an all-powerful medium through which the electorate can be reached. I am sure this will generate greater interest in our elections.

Mr Chairman, the debates of the past week actually reminded me of what Mark Antony said at Caesar’s funeral. He said, “I am here to bury Caesar, not to praise him.” Before elaborating on this, I should first like to thank Mr Van Zyl for everything he has done for the Public Service and for his other officials over the years. I think one may have a quiet mind about this department. Great praise has come from all sides for the work which was done under his management, as well as the other officials who work with him.

I shall revert to what Mark Antony said. I have come to the conclusion that, where politicians enter the picture, it is just the opposite. If one praises somebody, one is actually burying him. I hope the hon the Minister will not hold it against me therefore if I do not praise him this afternoon because I do not think the time has come yet for us to bury him politically. He will possibly just not take his seat as a Minister again.

At the present time it is definitely necessary for me to praise a few other hon members. I should like to praise the hon member for Hercules as well as the hon member for Gezina. I find this difficult, but I am also thinking of the hon member for Brentwood. I want to thank them for always having been friendly toward us in this House. I hope they enjoy the rest which they are about to have. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Johannesburg North referred to the appointment of the hon member for Innesdal and congratulated him on it. This gives me hope. It shows that the Government does not appoint Nationalists alone but also Progs at times. [Interjections.] They are not merely appointing people from their own party.

Haven’t you prepared a speech?

I next want to discuss the matter of delimitation and refer briefly to a few aspects which were mentioned here. As a result of determining the number of seats in the various provinces, delimitation cannot take place across provincial boundaries. Determining the number of seats per province is not an entrenched clause and may be changed with the assistance of the President’s Council for instance.

I do not want to say that the provincial seat quota should be tampered with at this stage but I do want to mention that we cannot continue creating more and more seats and bringing more and more MPs here. The country cannot afford it. Provincial seats will therefore have to be reduced at some stage or other in order to accommodate overpopulation in another province.

If the other Act which increases the number of constituencies cannot be passed because of the system which the Government has created, is it not time for them to consider the alternative of letting every democratic vote in this country have the same value at least. Surely it cannot be right that 40 000 votes in an electoral division in the Transvaal are equal to 13 000 votes in the Cape—I am referring to two urban electoral divisions in this case. The hon member for Green Point’s 13 000 votes in an urban electoral division are only a third as many as mine in a rural electoral division. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Gezina, who spoke on this matter, represents an urban electoral division as big as a postage stamp. I represent a rural electoral division with almost twice as many voters as he has. Of course this certainly reflects the ability of a man to represent many people! [Interjections.] This is also an aspect which should be taken into consideration!

The really serious aspect of this matter is that we are undermining democracy. Surely one person’s vote cannot be worth two and a half or three times that of someone else’s vote. If we undertake the election on the existing voters’ lists, this will be the case.

The hon the Minister said that there was too little time for delimitation but then I want to say with all due respect that the NP has been asleep over the past few years because this cannot be something which they did not foresee. Surely there was time to do this work. The fact is that the previous delimitation took four months—it was done from October to February—and took place over Christmas. The delimitation of Coloured and Indian electoral divisions, which was started from scratch, lasted for only three months at that time. Aided by computers, among other things, it could be completed within six months because in both those cases an election followed three months after the delimitation had been completed.

Section 50 provides specifically that, as soon as the Delimitation Commission has completed the delimitation regarding one House, it is to be handed to the State President so that the delimited area may be divided into electoral divisions. The delimitation in respect of all three Houses need therefore not be complete. This is the specific provision contained in section 50.

Section 48 provides for two methods of calculation as regards the House of Assembly and the other Houses. If the intention was to follow only one method of calculation, it would have been very easy to calculate the time from a specific day. I therefore want to tell the hon Minister that, if delimitation cannot take place now, we can unfortunately not praise him. Then I have to tell him that he told us at the beginning of the year that he was announcing a delimitation commission.

I did not say so.

The newspapers said that he had spoken about delimitation therefore he must have been turning it over in his mind at the time. [Interjections.] It is possibly not the hon the Minister’s fault—possibly other people have thwarted him in this. If it had been done at that stage, however, we would not have had any problems now and the delimitation could have been disposed of by this time.

I want to comment briefly on the control and censorship of publications. The norm nowadays is the norm of what a reasonable person would think about something and not what the Christian norm is. The argument on this is definitely that it would restrict religious freedom if we were to maintain the Christian norm but it is mentioned in section 1 of the relevant legislation that the intention is to protect the Christian view of life and aspirations. After all, provision is made specifically for that. With all due respect, I think that at this stage it is a far sounder norm than the norm of a reasonable person. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I am sure the hon member for Bethal will be quite happy if I do not react to his speech. However, I certainly do wish to react to the statement made by the hon the Minister earlier in this debate relating to the delimitation problem.

I want to say that the question of a delimitation of seats for the forthcoming election has been and will remain a thorny issue. Quite naturally I am disappointed that the hon the Minister has again informed us that it is not possible to have a delimitation—more particularly because of the chaotic state of the voters’ lists as we find them.

I wish to raise a particular issue with the hon the Minister relating to delimitation which goes beyond the normal scope of the political arguments which have been advanced thus far. I want to refer to the situation in Phoenix. As is commonly known, Phoenix in Durban, which according to the last official records has a population of some 360 000 individuals and a total of 57 369 registered voters, was done a grave injustice in March 1984 when according to the original delimitation, it was allocated just one seat in the House of Delegates.

At that time we argued that not only did this violate the principle that equal populations should have equal weight in a democracy but that it also undermined the democratic process and was contrary to the spirit of constitutional reform. I wish to contend that that argument is still valid today—in fact, even more so.

I believe that this injustice can be righted. In spite of the fact that an election is pending and that we have heard the hon the Minister in this regard, I believe that if the hon the Minister is determined, a quick delimitation is possible. After all, I wish to remind the hon the Minister that in 1984 a delimitation for the House of Delegates was done in a very short period of time. If it could have been done then, it can be done again this year.

I wish to appeal to the hon the Minister to see to it that justice is done to the voters of Phoenix and that they are afforded proper and adequate representation. Let us demonstrate to the people of Phoenix that all of us have not overlooked our responsibility to them.

We have already drawn attention to the chaotic state of the voters’ lists in 1984 and, in our view, it would appear that this is still the position. Recently the PFP undertook a random sample of some 600 voters in the Springfield-Reservoir Hills area and we found in a door-to-door campaign that of this number 108, or more than one sixth of our sample of voters, were nonexistent because of some irregularity or other. Our senior researcher was of the opinion that this accounted for the low polls previously recorded in that area and that it did not augur well for the coming elections. In our view, these irregularities have been initiated with a view to some dirty work for the future and could be the work of one or more people with a motive. I think it was the hon member for Bayview who earlier in this debate drew the attention of hon members of this House to what went on, particularly in Tongaat and elsewhere.

I would appeal to the department to go into this matter urgently because this appears to be confirmed in another survey recently done in Chatsworth. There it has been found that of the roll of some 137 000 voters, only 80 000 are genuine voters. The others are non-existent.

I now wish to deal with the question of visa applications and the criteria that are employed by the department before these are either approved or rejected. I am informed that the purpose of the visa system is to determine in advance whether the admission of a person to the Republic is desirable or necessary—in other words, whether or not such intended visit by a person from outside South Africa will be in the interests of the country.

From the information given to us there was an average increase of some 34,1% per month in the number of visas issued last year. Some 327 872 of these visa applications made to the department were in fact approved.

However, one person who was not granted a visa was Professor Thomas G Karis who, as all of us know, is a Professor Emeritus of the Graduate School of the City University of New York. This person has been a frequent visitor to this country and, in fact, served in the American Embassy from 1957-59. He returned to this country in 1963 and 1964 to do research on a book on the Transkei. The book was subsequently published to wide acclaim. He was given a visa in 1979 and again in 1980, 1983 and 1985. The criteria that he would not have conducted any business here which was inimical to the best interests of the country, were obviously satisfied on those occasions.

I am informed that the purpose of his planned visit to this country was to engage in documentary research on a book to complete his contribution to a documentary history of African politics in South Africa from 1964 to the present time. I believe this publication would have marked the conclusion of a four-volume documentary history published by the Hoover Institute in the 1970s entitled From Protest to Challenge. Now these volumes are all very well known in this country and are widely available in the Republic. These volumes have been widely acclaimed, not only in the international academic community, but also here in South Africa.

It is my view that it would most certainly have been in the interests of South Africa to have admitted such a person, particularly when other respected international academics want to give us as wide a berth as possible in deference to the academic boycott of this country.

The question I would like to ask the hon the Minister is: Why then was this respected academic not allowed to enter this country? As I have said, he is certainly no threat to the security of this country. He has been here before on many occasions and he knows the country well. Perhaps the hon the Minister will explain or, if a mistake has been made, attempt to rectify the situation.

I also want to take the opportunity to wish the Director-General well in his retirement. I also want to wish the hon member for Innesdal, who has just joined us, well in his new position overseas.

Mr Chairman, it is, I believe, the policy of the DP that the Population Registration Act should be scrapped. In fact, I think the hon member for Groote Schuur made reference to that yesterday in the course of the debate. However, they do not even allow members of the House of Representatives to become members of their party. What hypocrisy! As far as the voters are concerned, they are regarded as hypocrites. They have always been rejected and they are growing smaller by the day. They will be even smaller, almost non-existent, after the next election.

Why do you give them so much attention then?

There are two aspects I should like to address. The first is citizenship for immigrants. There are approximately 339 000 immigrants over the age of 20 who qualify for South African citizenship. I am glad to hear that the department last year wrote letters to 10 761 immigrants, 746 of whom indicated that they would seriously consider becoming citizens. Until now only 56 have applied for citizenship. This might sound like only a few, but if we look at the 746 who replied, it seems fairly satisfactory; it means about 7% replied positively. I think the department must again approach those who reacted positively but have not applied to acquire South African citizenship yet. What are the advantages of this?

†I quote from a letter which the Director-General sent out to immigrants who have been in our country for more than five years:

*However, Mr Chairman, there are also disadvantages involved in acquiring citizenship, for example pensions. Immigrants who receive pensions from their mother country may lose their pensions when they acquire citizenship. This they will never accept. Many immigrants’ children, who were born here, are in fact South African citizens. For this we are very grateful. I would like to suggest that the department contact immigrants every year and persuade them to acquire South African citizenship. I hope that the department will persist in the good work it is doing in this regard at present.

The second aspect I want to mention is the rude language used in certain films and videos and which the public finds objectionable.

†As far as our films and videos are concerned, it has become fashionable to use the four-letter words. In fact, the more four-letter words you can string together in one sentence or paragraph, the better; the better the sales, the better the turnover. The more nudity we find in our films, the better the sales and the larger the turnover as far as the videos are concerned.

How do you know?

I want to ask: What are we doing to our youth? Must we subject our youth to this kind of immoral language and lurid sexual scenes and violence? Any child, any teenager, can walk into any video shop and, on behalf of their parents, in the local community where they live, can get any video they wish. There is no restriction and although there may be laws, they are certainly not implemented. Any child can walk in and get a video which is reserved for people of 21 years or older.

Our Constitution is founded on strong principles, albeit we are a nation of many religions. I want to appeal here today to the hon the Minister to look again at the Publications Act and to see how we can improve the law. I do believe that there are areas which have been investigated and I believe that certain clauses can be updated and made more stringent in regard to the release of films and videos to the general public.

In conclusion I would like to express my thanks to the Director and staff of the Publications Board for the hard and very, very valuable work they are doing for us here in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, no government is more sensitive about religion than the Government of our country. Freedom of religion is a cornerstone on which the South African Constitution is based. This cornerstone is jealously guarded and significant honesty is implemented. The fact that South Africa, a predominantly Christian country, banned the book The Satanic Verses written by Salman Rushdie is proof of how serious our Government is about religion.

It is with great pleasure that I extend my congratulations to the hon the Minister of Home Affairs and his Director-General Mr Gerrie van Zyl for having so speedily banned the devil-written book The Satanic Verses. I want to assure the hon the Minister and his department that local and international Muslims are grateful to have Salman Rushdie and his book banned from our country.

For the past 12 months I have had a lot of work done by the Department of Home Affairs and the manner in which I was assisted by certain officials—even after hours—must be praised.

[Inaudible.]

The hon member always takes it in a bad manner because he does the same. I do it honestly, however. [Interjections.] He must be careful because his wife is watching and listening.

The manner in which I was assisted by certain officials must be praised and I would like to name but a few. They are Mr A F Tredoux, Mr J F van der Merwe, Mr B Webber, Mr Odendaal, Mr Vogel and Mrs Leonard. I want the hon the Minister to know that I greatly appreciate the manner in which these officials have assisted me with my problems.

I would like to say today that we are going to lose somebody very important and I am referring to Mr Gerrie van Zyl. In the past and until now, any time I needed his help his door was always open and he never said no. He was often busy but he never hesitated to help me.

The hon member for Hanover Park made me laugh the more he spoke about intimidation. [Interjections.] It seems to me the hon member forgot how—in the last election— the LP and he himself were intimidating the voters by taking their pensions and grants. They told them they were the pensions and grants officials … [Interjections.]

Order! No, the hon member for Tafel-berg has the floor.

… and if they did not vote for them, they would lose their pensions and their grants. It seems to me that the LP and some of the hon members do not know exactly what they are doing. They say the radicals and people outside are intimidating the voters. It seems to me that they are intimidating their own people. This is so because the moment they have got no more votes, they are going to lose. [Interjections.] Secondly the hon member spoke about general elections. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must grant the hon member an opportunity to make her speech.

He must be booted out, Mr Chairman. He behaves like a little boy.

In the last election in 1984 and in the municipal election in October of last year, it seemed to me that many people came back from the dead to vote. How they did that, heaven alone knows. These people who had been dead for years came down from heaven to vote for some members of the LP.

We appeal to the hon the Minister of Home Affairs to come up with a Bill or some measure to prevent any person not on the voters’ roll or any person who has died, from voting. The moment such a person votes for a person who is standing for election, he must be disqualified.

Secondly, many things happened during the last elections for Coloured people in August 1984, especially in Uitenhage. How the Labour Party managed this, heaven alone knows. How could one White woman identify over 5 000 Coloured voters? I would like to know this. I am well-known everywhere, but even I cannot recognise 100 people and qualify them for special votes. It is impossible.

Another matter is that many of our people have applied to the Department of Home Affairs for identity documents over the last two or three years, but it seems to me there is no trace of their applications. I ask the hon the Minister please to look into the matter.

Secondly, there are many students who come from Malawi as well as from overseas. The moment they apply for a study permit, it is refused. Many of these students cannot study their chosen subjects in their own countries. They can only study them in South Africa, because of religious reasons, because Arabic and Islamic classes are provided here. I ask the hon the Minister to please see to the matter.

Mr Chairman, today I should briefly like to discuss media regulations in particular and Government action in general, because they are strangling freedom of speech in South Africa. I believe that true reform, a moving away from the present racist minority system of government to a non-racist, democratic state, is not possible if the voters are either not informed or misinformed, or both. As a result of the stranglehold of the emergency measures and especially the media emergency measures, the Government and in particular this hon Minister have restricted the free flow of information to such an extent and destroyed it in so many ways that the White South African voters of today are definitely the most uninformed part of our population.

The hon the Minister has destroyed the democratic process to such an extent that last year when people wanted to conduct a peaceful campaign against participation in Brown and Black local authorities during the election of local authorities, they were prohibited by emergency regulations from calling upon people to participate in such a boycott. The measure, as I am going to quote, states that it is basically unlawful to do the following:

I want to ask the hon the Minister how subversive it can be to encourage people not to vote. Surely this should be their democratic right. If the structure for which the people have to vote is such that people feel satisfied with it, they will vote for it immediately. However, to tell people that they are not even allowed to encourage people not to vote, even though they do this in a peaceful way and without intimidation, is a destruction of the democratic option.

†By curtailing the democratic process to such an extent as is happening in our country, where the sentiments harboured by people cannot be published or expressed, one is forcing people such as myself to use the privilege afforded to us in Parliament to expose the harsh realities of South Africa. Very few places are left where that can be done. Because the hon the Minister’s emergency regulations forbid the media from publishing police violence in townships and therefore prevent the public from knowing what has been done to the oppressed people of our country, it is the task of those of us who are in Parliament to use our privilege and our position as members of Parliament to expose these excesses.

The argument that the Government only acts against the revolutionary elements in the Press is not true. It is absolute nonsense. The Government acts against all papers that mobilise opposition against the State in the oppressed Black communities.

That is where the Government hits hardest. Newspapers such as South, New Nation, Grassroots and Saamstaan, by exposing—sometimes in a very naive way, not in a very professional way, as many of these people are locally trained— the nature of State repression in the townships actively, stand in the way of the Government’s attempts to co-opt Black people into the Government’s structures. That is why the hon the Minister specifically aims at the so-called alternative media, which are in the forefront of exposing State repression in the townships.

With regard to media regulations it should also be remembered that firstly, everything depends on the opinion of the Minister whether a newspaper or a report is subversive. In the days of Dr Connie Mulder, when that then Minister wanted to have these sort of powers there was a massive outcry throughout South Africa, which ensured that the Government withdrew its planned media regulations. Today we sit with the same powers vested in a different Minister, and we can do nothing to influence or prevent him from actually exercising his rights.

Secondly, however, after the Minister has decided to suspend or shut down a newspaper, there is no recourse to law or to the courts. There is no such recourse. There is therefore no neutral body that can evaluate whether the Minister in actual fact had any reasons to do so. At the end of the day this Government and this hon Minister can, completely arbitrarily, close down any newspaper or publication which they find politically unacceptable. The powers which this hon Minister has are indeed awesome and would have made that master of propaganda, Nazi minister of propaganda Goebbels, green with envy.

I want to warn this hon Minister and his Government that by suppressing the free flow of information, they are, firstly, creating a dangerously uninformed White electorate and, secondly, forcing the oppressed people, prevented from airing their grievances and aspirations in an open way, to look for other ways, including less peaceful ways of venting these feelings. If the hon the Minister was informed about the feelings in the townships, he would know that every time he acts against one of those alternative media, he is actively promoting the spiral of violence which he says he wants to prevent.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Claremont is one of those members who professes to be in favour of the expansion of democracy. He even wants to join the DP. But when the Government introduces measures which are needed to expand democracy in an orderly way, he opposes them, as he has done here today. This merely proves where his sympathies really lie.

I should like to refer to the immigration campaign of the department and the success achieved with it. There can be no doubt that manpower and entrepreneurship are the most important production factors of all. A country can have very good raw materials and a lot of money, but if it does not have the trained manpower and if it does not have the entrepreneurship it does not have a very good chance of making progress. It is specifically in respect of this matter of trained manpower that our country has a tremendous shortage. Several prominent economists said very recently that this was the greatest economic problem we had to deal with at present.

I wonder whether there is a country in the West where the competition among trained manpower is as low as it is in South Africa. This is also one of the reasons why our inflation rate is so high. It is because of this basic difference in respect of the available pool of trained manpower that a few years ago the increase in interest rates had the opposite effect in South Africa to what it had in other Western countries.

In the USA and the United Kingdom the high interest rates cooled down the economy, and because there was an available pool of trained manpower, there was greater competition in the labour market for trained manpower and as a result the inflation rate dropped. In South Africa the high interest rates had the opposite effect because we did not have that available pool of skilled manpower.

There was therefore not the competition in the labour market which could bring inflation down. If one looks at the percentages, I think the rate of unemployment among skilled workers was approximately 6% during that period in the other countries to which I have referred. There can be little doubt that in the last decade the rate of unemployment among skilled manpower in South Africa was never more than 0,5%—and this while at least 2% is a sound unemployment rate among skilled workers to ensure a high rate of productivity. That is another reason why we have such a low level of productivity in this country.

This is a very short motivation for the fact that we must give priority to a strong immigration effort for the sake of skilled manpower. Another reason is training. If we want to train our own people we will have to bring more skilled people into the country. It is safe to assume that for every skilled immigrant who enters the country at least seven to nine employment opportunities are created for unskilled workers. This proves that immigration is also needed for the sake of the creation of employment for unskilled workers.

It is true that there is a trend as regards the flow of immigration and emigration. To a great extent this is linked to economic and political factors. In 1960 we had a negative flow of immigrants, and this was again the case in 1977 and 1978, and in 1986 and 1987. However, this negative flow was converted into a positive flow of 2 633 last year. In 1986 the negative flow was 6 700 and in 1987 it was 3 200. There is now a positive flow of 2 600. Last year the total number of immigrants was 10 400 and the total number of emigrants 7 700. This included a positive flow of 1 514 economically active persons. As regards this category 5 000 people entered the country and only 3 400 left the country.

Unfortunately there was still a negative flow of 19 persons last year in respect of professional people. However, I think at this stage we can accept that there is a positive flow in this regard. The latest figures for January 1989 indicate a strong positive trend, and that in that month alone there was a positive flow of 435 immigrants. In that month there was still a negative flow of one person as regards professional people. I think one can however accept that it is positive at this stage.

I do not think one can do otherwise than express thanks to the hon the Minister and the department for what they have done in this regard. They were particularly far-sighted in the sense that when matters seemed to be negative they did not reduce or recall our immigration representatives abroad. This was done in the past and it had very negative long-term consequences. Because it was not done this time I believe that we soon reaped the benefits of this.

The Republic is frequently misrepresented abroad and sometimes even in this House as a tremendous oppressor of people and as a country in which human rights are negated. Strangely enough one of the biggest problems we are experiencing in this country is the influx of illegal persons from abroad. I want to point out briefly to hon members how many people were traced and removed last year. Of these, 3 500 persons entered the country from Zimbabwe, 750 from Botswana, 4 400 from Lesotho, 250 from Malawi and 1 800 from Swaziland. However, our greatest problem remains Mozambique.

In 1988, 33 000 people from Mozambique were traced and sent back to Mozambique. This is over and above the 43 000 people who have since 1985 been supplied with provisional permits to reside in KaNgwane and Gazankulu. Approximately 300 inspectors in the Northern Transvaal are involved with this matter full-time and I thank the department for this programme, which would seem to be very effective. We simply cannot allow our country to be overrun by illegal persons, who threaten the employment of our own unskilled workers.

The hon member for Groote Schuur and several other hon members also attacked the Population Registration Act. This epitomises the PFP’s naivety and the fact that they are strangers to the truth. The PFP is still part of the DP. They are trying to get away from this, but essentially they are still the PFP. The fact is that we have strong group awareness in this country. We are nowhere near a homogeneous community and are closer to a world in one country. If one does not take thorough cognisance of this one cannot expect the voters to take one seriously.

What about free association?

The freedom to define one’s group is also part of freedom of association. [Interjections.] The White group in this country and the supporters of the Government in this country have decided to define their group in terms of objective criteria. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I merely want to know whether it is permissible for the hon member Dr De Beer to try to recruit the hon member for Claremont here in the House.

Mr Chairman, it seems as if the hon member for Claremont’s shares are rising, but he probably needs that after the speech that he made.

†The hon member for Johannesburg North referred in the first place to passports. I want to state once again—I say it in all sincerity—that a passport is a privilege. It is not a right that a citizen has. I also have a primary responsibility to consider the interests of South Africa when issuing a passport. However, I obviously do not wish to deprive a citizen unnecessarily of his privilege to travel the world. It is therefore vital to maintain this delicate balance between the interests of the State and the interests of the individual.

I invite hon members to call at my office at any time if they have a problem with any particular actions that I have taken in this regard. However, I want them to know that I shall take the interests of the State into consideration. As a guide to hon members I want to tell them that in granting passports, security considerations are of the utmost importance. This is not the case only in South Africa, but worldwide. I asked for the papers now and have received them here. A Supreme Court judge in the United States of America found that the right to travel abroad is subordinate to national security. I wish to quote from the judgement: “No governmental interest is more compelling than the security of the nation.”

Here in South Africa, Acting Chief Justice Buchanan stated in 1900 and I quote him: “After all, the safety of the State is the highest law.” It is well-known that decisions on passports here and abroad evoke emotions. I want to indicate to hon members that I try to maintain a balance and to deal with each particular case on its own. I also of course obtain input from various interested governmental departments. I obviously cannot obtain the facts on my own or in my own department. I invite hon members to communicate with me whenever they have a problem in regard to a particular case.

With regard to media control the hon member for Durban North said that more than R1 million was being spent on media monitoring and that I had said so. I then asked him to what I was replying. I most certainly did not say that. What I had said, was the following—and I will rather read a brief report from the Cape Times which is correct in regard to this question which was put to me. It reads as follows:

So even the Cape Times—obviously being read by the hon member—gave a correct version and made a correct summary of what I in fact had said. I suppose the hon member made a joke when he referred to that.

The hon member also referred to the matter of fingerprints. In a country like South Africa I do not think there is a better way—it is still a little messy to do at this stage but it is improving—in which to identify people than by fingerprinting. I do not think anybody likes this but it is now done in respect of all new applications from all population groups, including Whites. It is therefore not only applicable to the Black people. I think it is going well. We need it for various purposes and the criminal connotation is no longer applicable. I think we will get used to it. With our very long borders with adjoining countries—borders which are not protected, fenced or demarcated— we in South Africa in particular require a definite identification system in order to control traffic in and out of our country. I think it is also proper to have this in the case of car accidents and for other identification purposes. The system is progressing very nicely and people are becoming used to it.

The hon member for Bayview referred to courses and seminars which in terms of the report are almost always exclusively attended by White people. I want to assure the hon member once again that this department is most certainly not race-conscious in the sense of having any policy which excludes any Brown or Black person from participating in any programme.

The department would welcome educational participation by all the groups. As it is, this department is being manned mainly by White people and they have to serve the other groups as well. However, we would welcome it if there were more Black and Brown people who could assist in this tremendous task. It is a fact that we advertise for various posts and we try to encourage those who are there to participate in various training courses, but we are not getting the response that we had hoped for. Hon members present here can assist in encouraging their communities to work for the Public Service, because there is a good future and they will be admitted, to this particular department as well.

*The hon member for Brentwood very aptly referred to the process of admitting people. He is quite correct: We in South Africa cannot allow ourselves to be inundated by people who think that they can dictate to us what to do about the future. In fact these people intend, not even to give advice, but to disrupt our present process further in order to let reform take place, not by means of negotiation, but by means of violence and agitation. I thank the hon member for having pointed out this real cause for concern and I agree with him that recently we have been able to identify the biggest culprits and that they no longer even try to come here.

As regards identity documents, I myself was surprised at the success achieved by the department in getting so many people to apply for identity documents. In the process this document has now become a valuable document, with all its additional advantages which are helpful at banks and local authorities. The prejudice that used to exist in respect of this document, has now become a thing of the past. We are very glad that this is the case.

The hon member also referred to strangers who entered the country and asked whether the time had not perhaps come for us to make the carrying of identity documents compulsory. I believe that the time will come when we shall be able to do so and when the stigma of the old pass syndrome will no longer be attached to this document, and that it will then become one of the individual’s most valuable possessions. I believe that one of these days the time will come when it will be possible for us to promote the compulsory carrying of such documents with the spontaneous support of all the population groups.

†I sincerely want to thank the hon member for Hanover Park for his advice in regard to certain clauses in this Bill which will be considered soon. I think it will assist us in countering certain arguments we shall be having across the floor during the consideration of the Bill. He made some very useful suggestions in regard to conducting the election. I can see he is a very experienced man as far as elections are concerned.

*The hon member for Bethal, like the hon member for Overvaal, tried to promote the question of demarcation.

The hon the State President agrees with him.

I appreciate their problem, but he used the same arguments raised by the hon member for Overvaal and I have already replied to them. I would like to add one more point: It is true that the demarcation commission could probably handle one House’s business in approximately four months, but then the process is not yet over; there are still two important processes. I wish to say, as regards the period they have in mind, that once the demarcation commission has completed its work, many months still have to pass.

The first of the other processes is the printing of maps indicating the new boundaries. We have given this matter due consideration and have discussed it with the experts. This process of printing maps could still take a few months.

Say two months?

It could still take a few months. [Interjections.] The other process is the rearrangement of all the voters on the voters’ lists. It could take months to complete this rearrangement.

Not in the age of computers.

In this age of computers one still has to feed them. Had it not been for computers, we would have had an even longer period.

*I simply want to tell hon members, without discussing the merits with them now, that it will not take such a short time as they think.

The hon member for Bethal also objected to the norm of the reasonable person. Section 1 of the Publications Act specifically refers to a Christian point of view. I infer that to the hon member these two terms are mutually exclusive, and that the reasonable person cannot also be Christian, and vice versa. I feel strongly that the hon member is making a mistake. Many rulings are being given now to illustrate that a reasonable person would not be able to come to a conclusion if he did not take section 1 as his point of departure. However, that is something we are watching closely. We are looking at the direction, and I do not think the hon member has to worry about the administration and application of that particular Act. We are watching it very closely.

†The hon member for Springfield also pleaded for delimitation. I think the hon member followed my argument in Afrikaans. It takes a long time, whatever the merits may be, to have a delimitation. It is not a matter of three or four months; it will take longer than that. The hon member must try to think of other ways and means. There is of course the matter of nominating people, but I do not know what the position is there.

[Inaudible.]

Let us take Phoenix. As regards the bad state that the voters’ roll is in, the hon member must take into account that we, the department, will be going all out to try to clear the voters’ lists and have them as correct as possible. However, it also depends on the political parties. The hon member cannot sit back, because he wants the people to be on the voters’ roll as much as we do. A voter has a legal responsibility to be on the roll. The hon member knows as well as I do that they do not comply with their legal responsibility. Therefore, from the department’s point of view, we will go all out to get as many people as possible on the voters roll. However, the political parties must do the same.

Visa applications, once again, are very carefully considered. They are most certainly not merely looked at on a superficial basis. They are very carefully scrutinised and I once again invite hon members to communicate with me if they feel that an injustice has been done.

I recall the particular case to which the hon member referred. Perhaps the hon member should visit my office one day so that I can explain to him what motivated it. I do explain to hon members here who are members of Parliament, and I do try to convey why certain decisions are taken in cases like these.

*The hon member for Durban Point pleaded strongly for immigrants to be reminded to apply for South African citizenship. That is an excellent idea and the department has tried to follow it. However, we have not achieved much success in this regard.

The big problem is that people who have other citizenship are usually afraid to apply for South African citizenship as well. They then lose all the advantages of their home country. We shall try to follow the hon member’s recommendation, and we shall continue to encourage as many people as possible to do so.

I wish to give the hon member for Durban Point the assurance that we also object to crude language being used in films. However, in certain cases we have to act very carefully, because the language fulfils certain functions in respect of the character, the situation and the circumstances of that particular subject. We must take a balanced point of view, nor do we wish to disregard the film maker’s initiative and his aesthetic feelings. I wish to reassure the hon members once again, and I suggest that they should go and have a look at how this Directorate of Publications functions. They should also go and have a look at these films, and at what happens there. The line of action taken is very balanced. We have succeeded in maintaining that balance very well.

†From her actions here this afternoon, I think the hon member for Tafelberg has a very good chance of coming back after the elections. She will most certainly not stand back for anybody. I want to thank the hon member for the appreciation she expressed in respect of many of the officials of the department concerned. I have taken note of the various points she raised in regard to elections and we most certainly will attend to them.

The hon member for Claremont delivered his usual arguments in respect of freedom of the Press. I have often listened to the hon member in this regard, but I do not seem to reach the hon member. What I think we do know is that the hon member has one viewpoint and that I have another viewpoint.

Mine is right, yours is wrong.

Perhaps the hon member should visit me one day so that we can spend half an hour seeing whether we cannot reach each other. [Interjections.] The hon member raised various arguments which he did a month ago when the other debate took place.

I want to tell the hon member once again that in administering and implementing the media emergency regulations, I take the utmost care, and the process which I devised and which I am obliged to adopt, is a pain in the neck. I have to give so many notices and listen to so many representations, which I do …

Rather just close them down.

I rather feel inclined to throw them away, but I think that after a couple of years of administering these regulations, some success has been achieved. I am not unreasonable. I do not want to eliminate any criticism of a party, officials, an hon Minister or anything like that. That is not done. I have specified the propaganda actions which we believe will fan the violent overthrow of “the existing regime”, as the hon member calls it. [Interjections.] I am not prepared to answer any questions. The hon member has said everything.

*I thank the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North for yet another solid discussion on the important question of immigration. This brings us to one of the big problems we have in this country, namely skilled labour. This is one of the most important retarding factors, namely that we have too few trained and skilled people to cover the wide spectrum of our activities in the industrial and other economic fields, and that we cannot handle this as we ought to. We have too much unskilled labour. In this regard all hon members of the different communities can make a contribution by encouraging people to help us to make South Africa self-sufficient. However, it is a fact that we are not self-sufficient as far as doing our work is concerned. For that reason it is essential to look elsewhere to ensure a skilled labour force.

I wish to thank hon members for their participation. Finally, I wish to remind hon members of the fact that the door of the Director-General and his officials is always open to hon members for assistance, even during the election period. My door will also be open, even to the hon member for Overvaal.