House of Assembly: Vol11 - TUESDAY 18 APRIL 1989

TUESDAY, 18 APRIL 1989 PROCEEDINGS OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Prayers—14h15.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS—see col 5733.

INTERPELLATIONS AND QUESTIONS—see “QUESTIONS AND REPLIES”

REFERRAL OF BILLS TO COMMITTEES (Draft Resolutions) *The MINISTER OF CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT AND PLANNING:

Mr Speaker, I move:

That the Constitution Fourth Amendment Bill [B 85—89 (GA)] be referred to the Joint Committee on Constitutional Affairs.

Agreed to.

*The MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE:

Mr Speaker, I move without notice:

That in terms of Rule 153 (3) the Cultural Affairs Bill (House of Assembly) [B 75—89 (HA)] and the Cultural Institutions Bill (House of Assembly) [B 90—89 (HA)] be referred to a committee appointed in terms of Rule 50 (1) (a).

Agreed to.

The House adjourned at 15h18.

PROCEEDINGS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Prayers—14h15.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS—see col 5733.

REFERRAL OF BILL TO JOINT COMMITTEE (Draft Resolution) *The MINISTER OF THE BUDGET, AUXILIARY SERVICES AND AGRICULTURE:

Mr Chairman, on behalf of the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning I move:

That the Constitution Fourth Amendment Bill [B 85—89 (GA)] be referred to the Joint Committee on Constitutional Affairs.

Agreed to.

SOCIAL WORK AMENDMENT BILL (Decision of Question on Second Reading)

Question agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

CONGRATULATION OF CHAIRMAN (Statement) *Mr P A S MOPP:

Mr Chairman, on behalf of the House I should like to congratulate you on the historic event yesterday when for the first time an Act of this Parliament was agreed to under the chairmanship of a Coloured person. Congratulations!

The House adjourned at 14h20.

PROCEEDINGS OF THE HOUSE OF DELEGATES Prayers—10h30.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS—see col 5733.

INTERPELLATIONS AND QUESTIONS—see “QUESTIONS AND REPLIES”.

SHEFFIELD SOCCER DISASTER (Draft Resolution) Mr M S SHAH:

Mr Speaker, with the leave of the House I move the following draft resolution without notice:

That the House expresses its deep regret at the Sheffield soccer disaster in Britain and extends its sympathy to the British people and in particular to the relatives of the victims who lost their lives or suffered injuries in the incident.

Agreed to.

RESIGNATION OF CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE (Announcement) Mr SPEAKER:

Order! I have to announce that I have received a letter from the Chairman of the House, Mr S Abram, informing me that he has resigned from office with immediate effect.

The motion on today’s Order Paper in the name of the hon member for Havenside therefore falls away.

ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE (Draft Resolution) Mr M BANDULALLA:

Mr Speaker, I am sorry that we only got to know about the resignation a moment ago but I am pleased that we were able to save the time of Parliament. The resignation of the Chairman this morning was a very wise move on his part and we appreciate the action that he took. It has not been our intention to bring this Chamber into any further disrepute.

Mr SPEAKER:

Order! I want to interrupt the hon member to inform hon members that I also received the letter of resignation only a few minutes ago. The hon member for Havenside may proceed.

Mr M BANDULALLA:

Mr Speaker, it is my pleasure, on behalf of my party, to move without notice:

That Mr E Abramjee take the Chair of the House as Chairman of the House.

The hon member for Laudium is a well-known personality. Other than being a member of Parliament, he has played a very active role in Pretoria as chairman of management committees for many years. He was also a member of the South African Indian Council and I had the great privilege and pleasure of working side by side with him. His ability is unquestionable and it is my pleasure to nominate the hon member for Laudium, Mr E Abramjee.

Mr SPEAKER:

Order! The name of the hon member for Laudium has been proposed. Is there a seconder for the proposal?

The MINISTER OF THE BUDGET:

Mr Speaker, it is my privilege to second the name of Mr E Abramjee as the Chairman of the House in this Chamber. Whilst I am on my feet I would like to pay tribute to Mr Salam Abram, the former hon Chairman who has just resigned, for his ability to conduct meetings in this House.

Mr SPEAKER:

Order! Are there any further proposals?

As there are no further proposals, does the hon member for Laudium accept the nomination?

Mr E ABRAMJEE:

Mr Speaker, I do.

Mr SPEAKER:

Order! As there are no further proposals I declare Mr E Abramjee, the hon member for Laudium, duly elected as Chairman of the House of Delegates.

Mr E ABRAMJEE:

Mr Speaker, I shall be very brief. I just want to express my thanks to the hon members who have elected me to this very important position. I will uphold the tradition of Parliament in my capacity as Chairman to the best of my ability and will work to further the interests of our community. I want to thank each and every one.

Mr SPEAKER:

Order! Before we proceed to the next order on the Order Paper, I would also like to place on record my appreciation for the diligent manner in which the previous hon Chairman, Mr S Abram, performed his duties in this House and in Parliament and for his assistance to me as Speaker.

’During the past 13 months in which he was Chairman, Mr Abram performed his duties conscientiously. He was always available to assist me. I would like to record my appreciation for the manner in which he performed his duties as Chairman of this House and also on the occasions when I asked him to act as Chairman in the Joint Meetings.

†I wish Mr Abram everything of the best for the rest of his parliamentary career.

Mr M GOVENDER:

Mr Speaker, on behalf of my party I would also like to associate myself with the remarks made by you in respect of Mr Abram and his ability as Chairman.

Mr SPEAKER:

May I congratulate the hon member for Laudium upon his election as Chairman of this House. The hon member for Laudium is not only a senior member of this House, but is also a very respected member in his own community, in the Indian community as such and also in this House. The hon member also served for a number of years as a member of the Ministers’ Council where he was also a very respected member. The hon member is perfectly bilingual which is of great assistance to a Chairman taking any Chair in Parliament. I am happy to know that I will have the hon member as Chairman in this House to assist me as Speaker of Parliament. I wish him only the very best during his term of office as Chairman of this House.

Debate concluded.

REFERRAL OF BILL TO JOINT COMMITTEE (Draft Resolution) The CHAIRMAN OF THE MINISTERS’ COUNCIL:

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the Constitution Fourth Amendment Bill [B 85—89 (GA)] be referred to the Joint Committee on Constitutional Affairs.

Agreed to.

The House adjourned at 10h50.

PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Chamber of the House of Assembly at 15h30.

Mr K D Swanepoel, as Chairman, took the Chair.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS—see col 5733.

APPROPRIATION BILL (Consideration of Schedules resumed)

Debate on Vote No 5—“National Education”:

*The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

Mr Chairman, today it is my privilege to deal with the National Education Vote for the fifth time. During this period I have developed a great appreciation for the quality of administration in the department. My sincere thanks to Dr Roe Venter and his team. The country can be proud of them.

To Dr Bernard Louw, who has been appointed Director-General of Education and Training, my thanks for the excellent service he has given to National Education. We wish him everything of the best in his new post.

It is also a pleasure for me to announce that Drs Lucas Stoop and Rolf Stumpf, who have had links with the department for a number of years now, have both been promoted to Deputy Director-General posts, the one to Dr Louw’s post and the other to a new post that has been created. We want to welcome them both to these responsible positions.

On this occasion I also want to express my thanks to the organised education profession for another year’s wholehearted co-operation, a year in which, as usual, they very responsibly represented the interests of their members. Between them and me there has, at all times, been frank but whole-hearted co-operation. I want to express my thanks to them and, through them, to all the educationists in our country.

Since the Department of National Education came into being in its present form, with its present mission, a tremendous amount has been achieved. There is one field of endeavour in which we are still grappling with a problem, however, and that is the adequate financing of education in an extremely difficult economic climate. Because I expect this problem to be central to this debate, I should like to make a few introductory remarks about this.

It is my department’s responsibility to develop the overall policy relating to the financing of education for all population groups. By law this policy must be developed within the framework of 11 principles for the provision of education. The first of these is that of striving to achieve equal educational opportunities, including equal educational standards, for every inhabitant of the Republic, regardless of race, colour, creed or sex.

To do this planning meaningfully and scientifically, use is made of specific formulas. These formulas regulate the allocation of funds to the various educational institutions. They also ensure—on a scientific basis—fairness towards the educational institutions of all population groups in accordance with the financial capabilities of the State at a specific juncture.

In the case of universities and technikons, financing formulas have already been developed and announced as general policy. In regard to the financing of the school and teacher’s training college sectors we have not yet progressed that far. The developmental work on the establishment of suitable financing formulas in this regard, however, has long since been completed. What is more, from as early as the 1987-88 financial year, these formulas have been used as a reference framework for the allocation of funds to education departments. Although these formulas have not yet been announced as general policy, at present we are gaining valuable experience with their implementation.

I am still engaged in sensitive negotiations about the way in which these formulas can be phased in over a specific period. At the same time the long-term financing objectives for school and college education are being negotiated. As soon as these negotiations have been concluded, the relevant general policy can be determined.

†Hon members will recall that I announced three years ago that negotiations were being entered into with a view to the implementation of a ten-year plan. The purpose of this was to effect the upgrading of the provision for education in South Africa with a view to making dramatic progress towards the long-term objective of equal educational opportunities for all. This plan was aimed at reconciling the long-term financing objectives for education with the country’s financial capacity.

To have been able to achieve meaningful progress in reaching the targets set, expenditure on education would have had to grow by 4,1% in real terms. However, I stressed at the time that this percentage had to take into account the expected growth in the economy.

After I had made the announcement on the ten-year plan, sanctions and disinvestment among other things became a reality. This, together with other economic factors, lead to economic forecasts on which the ten-year plan was based not being realised. The economy did not even nearly show the growth that had been expected. This complicated the negotiations regarding the ten-year plan on the basis of significant real growth and later made them almost impossible.

Consequently it is now necessary to take stock once again. In the short and medium terms we shall have to adapt to altered economic circumstances. In this process we shall have to take account of certain realities.

Firstly, there is the fact that the education system is a rapidly growing system. The average annual growth in education’s client numbers over the past few years has been nearly 4,4%. This growth is due mainly to the natural increase in the population. Another contributory factor is the fact that in our developing communities pupils want to become better and better qualified and therefore want to receive education over a longer period. In addition the percentage of the population receiving education continues to increase further. I expect the client growth of 4,4% in the education system to continue over the next five years.

Secondly, we must remember that the R11,8 billion which will be spent in total on education within the borders of the Republic during this financial year already constitutes 22% of the total functional budget. By functional budget I mean the total budget minus the expenditure in respect of the servicing of State debt.

If the contributions of parents and other clients of the education systems in the RSA in the form of tuition fees, school fees, hostel fees, school transport fees etc are also taken into account, an estimate that in total R13,6 billion is to be expended on education does not appear farfetched. This figure represents approximately 6,1% of the gross domestic product. In the case of developed countries across the world this figure is typically 6%, and in the case of developing countries between 4% and 5%.

These figures point to the fact that we are already applying a very favourable percentage of our country’s resources to education. What we are spending on education compares well with comparable countries. In the light of other important priorities such as housing, health and security services it is unrealistic to expect that this percentage can be pushed up appreciably.

When I say this, I want to emphasize that I am not playing down the importance of education, neither am I or the Government questioning its priority. It will be seen to as a priority that education continues to get its fair share of the available funds.

Thirdly, in dealing with realities we shall have to take account of the reality that the average annual growth in the economy since 1980 has only been about 1,3%. We shall also have to bear in mind that the Government has decided for very good reasons that the State’s share in the economy must become smaller through the curbing of State expenditure.

If the economy does not improve, we can therefore expect Parliament’s appropriation for education over the next few years to grow by only about 1% per annum in real terms. It may of course happen that the private sector’s contribution towards expenditure on education will grow more rapidly. In fact, I think it is one of the gratifying aspects that the private sector is making an ever more important contribution to education and training. As this contribution is at present relatively small in comparison to the State’s expenditure on education, it will, however, not materially influence the trend which I have sketched as a whole.

The fourth reality that we must bear in mind is that there still are disparities in the provision of resources in respect of education for the various population groups owing to historical factors.

These disparities do not exist because the Government wants them to exist. They are related, inter alia, to the fact that the pupil-teacher ratios for education departments differ. Apart from that, the qualification levels of teachers attached to the various education departments also differ, and thus also their remuneration.

Furthermore, the percentages of pupils reaching the relatively expensive senior secondary school phase in the various education departments are not the same either.

*All these circumstances cannot be changed overnight. Even unlimited funds would not bring about an instant solution. Besides funds, one also needs time, planning, training and sound administration. At the same time we cannot afford to forfeit the already existing educational opportunities and the high educational standards that have been achieved. The demands made upon education by a modern economy can only be satisfied by establishing educational opportunities and standards comparable to the best in the world.

It is therefore essential to develop strategies to help education departments, in which there are backlogs in educational opportunities and standards, to eliminate these backlogs, but without jeopardising existing standards. The state of the economy, however, makes it difficult to find affordable strategies for doing so.

I want to summarise the realities involved in finding new solutions for educational financing as follows: If there is not an improvement in economic growth, over the next few years the volume of clients for educational services is expected to grow 3% more rapidly than the available resources for education. This will result in a decrease in the provision of resources per client from a basis already considered by education to be poor.

On the other hand our modern economy demands that the high standards achieved and the available opportunities be maintained, whilst backlogs are systematically eliminated. All of this presents tremendous challenges to education and to those of us in public life who are involved with education.

How are we going to respond to these challenges? We surely do not dare allow these circumstances to reduce the quality of our education to grey mediocrity. I am convinced that we have the will, the ingenuity and the perseverance to find solutions to the problem.

I have not the slightest doubt that the most important solution for our educational financing problem lies in the stabilisation and development of the economy. It is vital for the economy to improve to such an extent that it can produce the necessary resources to provide for the increasing needs of education on an economically viable basis.

In order to achieve this, the Government is at present engaged in restructuring the economy as a whole on the basis of specific economic objectives.

The privatisation of governmental functions and the deregulation of the economic system are amongst the key elements in this process. Only when this objective has been achieved, will it be possible to place the planning in regard to educational financing on a firm and unbroken foundation.

Education itself will also have to make a contribution. We shall have to provide better education with fewer resources per client by means of a more efficient and leaner system of education.

At present urgent attention is being given to this challenge. Examples of what is under consideration, what is being examined and what is the subject of debate, are the following: In the case of universities the Committee of University Principles and my department are already jointly engaged in examining more stringent requirements for admission to universities.

The South African Council for Education has recommended that standards four and seven should also be defined as points at which children can leave the school system. We are also considering whether there is not perhaps room for a fundamental improvement of the curriculum.

Can the aims of the various educational programmes not be formulated more specifically? Can these programmes not be structured more efficiently so that these objectives can be achieved? After thorough and wide-ranging consultation, I recently approved guidelines for the development of a future overall policy in regard to norms and standards for syllabuses that can, in future, create a framework such as the one to which I have referred.

All these matters, and more too, are being considered by the Committee of Education Ministers and also elsewhere in education. I am certain that the deliberations will produce results that will lead to better education that can, in fact, be furnished with fewer resources per client.

†I want to sum up by saying that, as far as education is concerned, we are at present in a tight spot. On the one hand it is extremely important for the country to provide ever better education for all its inhabitants. On the other hand the resources are limited owing to the low economic growth. There are high standards of education that must be maintained at all costs. There are also low standards that have to be raised. There are many people with an untapped potential who can make a contribution towards economic growth and stability. A way must be found through these realities and progress towards finding solutions must be cautious and prudent.

Our top priority will be to increase growth in the economy to be able to meet the needs of education as well as other needs. Any renewal in education will therefore also have to be designed primarily to stimulate economic growth. Through helping the economy, education helps itself. Meaningful planning for the future and strategies for the phasing in of fixed subsidy formulas can only be attained if better economic growth is achieved.

In the interim much more can be done by education itself in bringing about a better and leaner education system. Much has already been done but more needs to be done. Just as I have faith in the country’s future, so do I have faith in education and its ability to deal with these challenges successfully. In this regard I am impressed by the courage and skill with which my education colleagues and their departments are coping and dealing with the present economic constraints. They continue to succeed not only in maintaining standards but also in attaining higher standards. Within its mission my department is also making its full contribution. May this debate also make a positive contribution.

*It would be easy for hon members to be critical or become aggressive about the problems, but that would not lead to any solutions being found. We could shout one another down here, but that would not increase the economic growth-rate. It would not create more money with which we could make the more rapid strides we would like to make. We must face up to the harsh realities of these times, and those of us who have the interests of education at heart must accept the challenge of making a meaningful contribution, within the context of those realities, towards dealing with the challenges we are facing in the field of education.

*Mr A GERBER:

Mr Chairman, it can certainly not pass unnoticed that a joint debate is being conducted for the first time in history in this historical Chamber of the House of Assembly. It cries out against all promises which this Government made to the Whites in this country before the referendum for the new dispensation. [Interjections.]

I am pleased that the hon the Minister referred this afternoon to the Government’s commitment to bring about parity in educational matters with the retention of White standards. I should like to react to this later in the debate.

On this occasion I should like to request the hon the Minister’s attention as regards events at some universities in South Africa. I want to state clearly beforehand that the CP endorses the principle of sovereignty in one’s own circle—as regards universities too.

Where there is a sound relationship between State and university, it is the privilege of a university to regulate its own affairs. The CP recognises this freedom and we add that the State should be careful not to interfere in the high degree of self-government at its universities.

At the same time I think, however, that it is high time now for the autonomy of universities, and especially the limits attached to this, to be indicated more exactly. The view that a university is a type of state within a state, without being in any way accountable to the community, cannot be endorsed. In spite of all its freedom, a university is interwoven in many ways with the community which it serves. As in all other walks of life, it is subject to the laws of the State and the codes of conduct of the community. The leader of the CP expressed it as follows in a talk on the radio in the seventies during the programme Waar die Soeklig Val:

Hy …

That is the university—

… is nie vry om sy eie samelewingspatroon in stryd met die in die res van die maatskappy te volg nie. Hy is ook nie vry om sy eie gedragskodes te volg nie. Dit staan hom ook nie vry om gegronde uitoefening van die staatsgesag te weerstaan of sy eie vorm daar-van uit te oefen nie. Dit staan hom ook nie vry om enigiets te doseer, ongeag of dit sede-ondermynend, staatsgevaarlik of anti-chris-telik is nie.

On listening to the claims which some universities lay to the autonomy which they ought to have, I gain the impression that they want to return to the Middle Ages. It was believed in the Middle Ages that the council, lecturers and students at a university formed an independent guild which entered into an agreement with the state purely for its own benefit and convenience but otherwise tolerated no interference from the side of the state.

In present times this would mean that the State was responsible for providing adequate funds for the activities of universities but that it would have no further say in what happened at those universities. The CP says no to this demand. In spite of all the freedoms to which a university may lay claim, it is accountable to the community which it serves.

In the light of these few thoughts I want to broach a number of matters to which, I believe, the Government should pay serious attention. If I mention the names of a few universities on this occasion, I am also aware that they do good work and that they are not the only ones who are guilty of unacceptable actions.

I first want to spend some time on the University of the Western Cape. In an interview with the Sunday Tribune, 14 August 1988, the rector of this university said that his university was an intellectual home for leftists. He specified the leftist direction of his university by pointing out that a distinction should be drawn between that of the University of Cape Town and the University of the Witwatersrand. These universities were supposedly merely liberal.

To my knowledge, this is the only university in South Africa which officially follows a policy of political radicalism. What is more, the rector of this university has been accused of supporting the ANC. Prof Georges Delpierre, a former head of the Department of Biochemistry, said in a statement:

Dit is baie duidelik dat die simpatie van die rektor, prof Gerwel, en die vise-rektor, prof Durand, by die radikale elemente lê, pro-ANC is en vir lief neem dat kommunistiese slagspreuke oral vertoon word.

The students go much further. A pamphlet was distributed on campus in which the Government was referred to as the Nazi war criminals in Pretoria. The pamphlet referred to closes with provocative slogans like: “Lank lewe Umkhonto we Sizwe!” en “Lank lewe die ANC-SAKP-bondgenootskap!”.

On 3 March 1989 a senior lecturer made the following allegations in Die Burger. He said that lecturers were under pressure to mark less strictly so that an acceptable percentage of students could pass their subjects annually. Prof Jaap du Rand supposedly warned in a letter to lecturers and students that the university could not guarantee their safety.

This lecturer also said:

Ons vrees vir ons lewens. Ek het al verskeie dreigemente ontvang en die woord “dood” is herhaalde male op ’n kollega se deur uitge-krap. ’n Ander kollega is deur studente uit sy kantoor gesleep en te lyf gegaan.

He further alleged that the rector fully supported student boycotts at that university. [Interjections.]

This afternoon I want to tell the hon the Minister that in such a situation a government has every right in the world to intervene; in fact, it is its responsibility to do so. It must do so in the interests of education, in the interests of the security of the State and in the interests of those people who really want to go to a university to study. If the hon the Minister does not act, we shall have no alternative but to believe that the Financial Mail, in their edition of 10 March 1989, had sized him up correctly when a caption appeared under his photograph which read “No iron fist”.

No self-respecting government tolerates such conduct. If students want to behave like this, they do not deserve to be able to study. If they misuse the financial assistance of the State, the taxpayer and the private sector in this way, they should be sent home and make room for people who really want to study. Universities have no room for such people! [Interjections.]

Particular note should also be taken of the rector’s conduct. If it is true that he supports student boycott actions and that he is well disposed toward the ANC, as is alleged, steps must be taken against him in the interests of the education of students at that university.

I also want to refer briefly to the group of Matie students which recently held discussions with the ANC. I read the Matie of 13 April 1989 in which the ANC was given great publicity in very sympathetic terms. It appears to me that the students’ contribution to the discussion was nothing more than to listen and ultimately to be influenced by Joe Slovo and Oliver Tambo. The students apparently did not have much to say.

I want to say that I appreciate the action of the students’ council which decided beforehand that its representatives would not participate in such a discussion. I hope they stand by that sensible decision.

The rector of the university says with justification that his university has been greatly harmed as a result of these discussions with the ANC. He is concerned about the influence which this may have on the image of the university and also the collection of funds for this university. I understand the sensitivity of the rector in this matter. Such conduct coming from student leaders certainly detracts from the image of the university among at least a large segment of the Whites.

I want to add that students’ yearning to conduct discussions with the ANC is merely the fruit which results when a university has been committed over the years to being a home for Afrikaner liberals. [Interjections.] One cannot influence students over many years by means of every kind of leftist propaganda, break down the anchors and traditions of Afrikaner students, and then expect that they will not ultimately arrive at a discussion with the ANC. At the moment the University of Stellenbosch is seeing the fruits of a tree which it planted itself.

*An HON MEMBER:

They are discovering a new world!

*Mr A GERBER:

How far the present Stellenbosch students have removed themselves from the Stellenbosch students of old whom I knew. How far they have removed themselves from what Prof H B Thom, a former rector, once said on the growth of the university:

Dit kon net gebeur omdat Stellenbosch in ’n diepe behoefte van die volk voorsien het; omdat hy al vroeg ’n volks-universiteit geword het; omdat hy—soos wyle dr D F Malan gese het—vir ’n idee gestaan het. ’n Idee om vir ’n worstelende volk ’n verskerping, verstewiging en veredeling van die gees te bring.

Today I say to the people who are involved with this university—I say this with respect because I am a former student of this university—at the moment they are reaping as they have sown. The reasons for this are that the university has become alienated from the people; that the idea which they represent today is worlds apart from the idea to which the late Dr Malan referred, and that a true home is no longer being offered to the people from which they have sprung and grown. For these reasons they are now plucking the fruits of students who have an ear open, and I think in some cases even a mind open, to terrorist organisations like the ANC.

I shall conclude by telling the hon the Minister that there are numerous parents in South Africa who expect of him to enable their children to receive university education in a calm atmosphere and without intimidation. There are numerous taxpayers in this country who say that they refuse to subsidise political radicalism at universities; which means that they refuse to help to pay for a spirit foreign to our universities, in conflict with traditions and customs of our country.

The CP, the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly, expects this hon Minister to take heed of that appeal.

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

Mr Chairman, I am sorry that I have to speak after an hon member who reasons like the hon member for Brits. I really wonder how much South Africa benefits by this. That is not for me to say or to evaluate, but I would like every hon member of the House of Assembly to consider very carefully what effect such remarks have on this country.

The hon member for Brits commented vigorously on a discussion which was held at one stage with people on the other side of the fence. Now I want to ask him how he foresees there will ever be mutual understanding if people do not talk to one another. How does he foresee this ever being possible? In any case I have far more important things I want to say. I should like to start saying them now.

Mr Chairman, I want to approach this debate on education in all sincerity today. I do not want the hon the Minister to miscalculate the honest feelings and concerns about education of my hon colleagues and I. Education has an important role to play in the orientation between the different population groups in this country. Education must also allow important things to happen in the orientation between the respective population groups in South Africa. Education therefore has a role to play.

I do not want to question the NP’s sincerity regarding this issue. I nevertheless want to warn that this endeavour cannot be successful if we do not start with our children. We will not be able to eliminate the fears of the Whites unless we start with our children, because that is where we are cultivating and forming the future of South Africa.

Let us look at the realities and then take serious decisions. Throughout our children’s school careers, from Sub A up to matric, which are their most important formative years, there is absolutely no formal contact between our children. During this important stage our children therefore have no experience—and I mean none—of physical interaction with any child of another population group.

*The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE (Representatives):

Only with the icecream cart!

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

Because of this our children’s field of experience is very narrow. The White child only sees the person of colour as someone who cleans the house or works in the garden. This is sad when one takes into consideration that we want to build a South Africa which must be set straight and must be better. Consequently our children never really learn to experience and understand the complex and multifaceted society around them. That is my problem. When that young person starts working his conception of a person of colour has already become part of his character and attitude. When there is contact, it becomes an emotional atom bomb, as we have seen here today, with a kinetic potential for tension.

We must initiate more discussions on the direction our education must take. Perhaps an indaba on our education would be a breakthrough. We simply must get away from the idea that the NP is the party of experts who have the only solutions for our education. We must get away from that. We should all be involved with the challenges to integrate education with the demands of a changed society. We as members of the LP would like to play a role. The hon the Minister need only afford us the opportunity and he will see what co-operation he gets from this party.

This brings me to a few other matters I should like to address today in this House. Three years ago the hon the Minister committed himself to the implementation of a 10-year plan. Since then I have learnt that the hon the Minister has not yet fully implemented this plan, owing to the low real growth rate we have experienced during the past three years. I can recall that on a previous occasion the hon the Minister linked the implementation of the plan to a minimum real growth rate of 4%.

*The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

It was 4,1%.

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

The hon the Minister is correcting me. It was 4,1%. We have not yet achieved this. I appreciate that, but what is worrying me is that the hon the Minister has implemented the subsidy formula of the plan in spite of the fact that the economy is not yet geared to this and without holding thorough discussions with those of us on this side. This worries me a bit. We must hold proper discussions on such sensitive matters. Essentially this is the only way in which we will be able to create another South Africa.

This has resulted in the formula, from the time it was implemented, comparing unfavourably with the previous formula in our department. The House of Representatives’ education budget has been curtailed by this, with the result that serious shortages are being experienced. I want to tell the hon the Minister that the needs of an education department which has lagged behind cannot suffer the losses our department is now suffering. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to be careful when he requests the education department of the House of Representatives, Coloured education, to make sacrifices to eliminate the backlog in Black education. We have simply not progressed that far and for that reason we cannot make the sacrifice.

I want to bring it to the attention of the hon the Minister that Coloured education is struggling with a pupil : teacher ratio of more than 50 pupils per teacher. Is that right? [Interjections.] A recent survey in America has shown that this evil to which I have just referred, namely the teacherpupil ratio, is the greatest cause of the high drop-out figure and the poor achievement of pupils.

When the new formula was implemented the following disparities really came to the fore, and I am illustrating this by means of statistics I have at my disposal. As a result of the formula the allocation in 1986 to Coloured education throughout the Republic was less than the allocation to White education in the Cape Province alone. I want to remind the hon the Minister that if he were to draw comparisons between the population intensity of Coloureds and Whites in the Cape Province, he would change his mind.

The implementation of this formula does not make provision for the elimination of the backlog which exists. To a far greater extent it makes provision to generate funds to continue supplying the services. It must also be taken into consideration that the value of money allocated to the department is declining annually in real terms. This is a problem we will definitely have to give attention to.

White education has already reached saturation point. I do not know whether there is an hon White member in this House today who wants to disagree with me. At this moment the White Department of Education and Culture is closing down schools. The department is no longer being pressurised to build schools as is the case in our House. The subsidy formula now being applied to our department does not make provision for that problem and dilemma facing our department. I think we will really have to do something about this and see whether we cannot come up with solutions. We are prepared to co-operate so that our education can improve.

On the face of it, it does not seem as if the White Department of Education and Culture is making sacrifices. If we look at all these aspects, it does not seem to me as if the White Department of Education is making the sacrifices being asked of us.

*The MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE (Assembly):

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

Yes, it is a problem if the facts also reflect this. Important services had to be curtailed, and other projects in our department had to be abandoned in the planning stage.

One asks whether, as an honest person, in an endeavour to narrow the gap, one can justify this. I am asking that the new subsidy formula be reconsidered. I do not want to be drastic. I am saying this hesitantly, but I am saying it. Let us look at the new subsidy formula. Perhaps one can consider implementing it better. Let us try to make changes to it.

Another matter causing me concern is underutilised or unutilised education assets, namely those White schools which have been closed down. At the moment they are being transferred to other departments. We cannot afford to sacrifice education assets in South Africa. As an example I want to refer to the case of the teachers’ college in Paarl. That institution has been given to the Defence Force. How much of the budget of the country is the Defence Force not already getting? Why exchange education’s assets for it? After all, education is poor enough. I want to ask in all seriousness—we are not saying this because we want something for nothing, because this is a stigma which is already attached to us—whether we should not change our approach so that we can eventually have a better South Africa. However, the question is whether education can really afford what we are doing to it. We will … [Time expired.]

*Dr J J SWANEPOEL:

Mr Chairman, I am pleased to speak after the hon member for Berg River, who made a very responsible speech here this afternoon and who dealt with various sensitive matters in an equally sensitive manner. In the first part of his speech the hon member made a pointed appeal for the utilisation of education for the promotion of healthy relations between the various population groups. In fact, he pleaded for formal contact between children at school level and mentioned in passing the possibility of an “educational indaba”.

I am not pessimistic about the attitude and earnestness of our children with regard to changes that are taking place in our country; in fact, I am often amazed at the understanding and the sensitivity with which our children deal with this matter and for this reason I have hope for the future. I agree with the hon member for Berg River that this is a matter that must enjoy our continuous attention. Since he has promised the co-operation of his party in this regard, I want to tell him that the NP is on record as having said that it wishes to promote relations between the various population groups at all levels and between all groups, including in the field of education. That concludes my response to the hon member for Berg River.

I wish to use the time at my disposal this afternoon to draw the committee’s attention to the necessity for technikon education in South Africa. With reference to the hon the Minister’s speech this afternoon, I do not think there is any difference of opinion among hon members with regard to the fact that we must promote South Africa as an industrial country, and particularly its technical skills. I do not think we differ on that. It is vital, in the interests of the material welfare of us all, that South Africa should refine and expand its management, business sector and industries to the optimum. However, rapid technological progress increases the demand for technologically trained workers. According to what I am told, 60% of school leavers in West Germany pursue a technical career. In South Africa the figure is only 10%. According to calculations, 75% of our school leavers ought to pursue a technical career in order to help to maintain our economic growth rate. What is also significant is that only 14% of South Africa’s students study at technikons, as opposed to the 73% at our universities. This is the case, whilst our manpower requirements in fact demand that those figures should really be reversed.

I could mention various examples to hon members, but I wish to dwell on just one. According to figures at my disposal our universities are at present producing two scientists for every one technologist produced by the technikons. In Britain the corresponding figure is one scientist for every six technologists. It is clear that we are dealing with an absolute imbalance here. The main objective of a technikon is to train students in all fields of study, by way of practical-academic training, to pursue a meaningful occupation and thereby to make a direct contribution to the economic life of the country and to society. In contrast, universities are not geared purely to occupational preparation, but to broad scientific schooling.

I wish to say at once that I would be the last one to allege that universities and technikons are in a tension situation or that they are competing with one another in this regard; on the contrary technikon education complements that of the university and neither of these two sectors can perform functions to the optimum without a relationship of partnership and co-operation with the other. This was, in fact, also the finding of an investigation by the Committee of University principals into macro aspects of the university system in 1987.

The fact is, however, that there is an imbalance in South Africa between the requirements for technically trained manpower and those academically trained persons who wish to enter the labour market.

Prof Philip Smit, who is well-known in this field, said on a recent occasion that we in South Africa, with our predominantly academically trained students, were facing the danger of reaching a position in which we would be saddled with academically trained unemployed.

Although an investigation conducted by the HSRC at the request of the Committee of Technikon Principals found that the attitude of the community towards technikons was in general not negative, and that the specialised training which technikons provided was generally known and appreciated, there were, in fact, certain findings which gave food for thought. For example, the HSRC found in its investigation that there was, in fact, a perception among our people that a person with university training had a better chance of earning a good salary than a person who had received training at a technikon, and that such a person also enjoyed greater social status in society.

Moreover, upon inquiry, it was also found in the investigation that 38% of matric pupils were of the opinion that one has to study far harder at university that at a technikon if one wishes to pass.

Technikons therefore have a long way to go before they are fully accepted as institutions which complement universities in meeting the great need for specific manpower.

I therefore want to state that the distribution of students between universities and technikons will have to change radically if the nature of future manpower requirements in our country is borne in mind, particularly the need for technically trained professional people. This implies a positive promotion of technikon education by all of us, and I want to appeal for this this afternoon.

I am pleased to be able to say that there is a technikon in my constituency, namely the OFS Technikon. It is one of the newest of the 12 technikons in South Africa. At present there are 3 000 students studying at that technikon and future projections indicate that the numbers will continue to show a positive growth rate for many years to come.

The most important contribution of the OFS Technikon is undoubtedly the provision of trained manpower to the service sector. Those who have completed their studies are to an increasing extent meeting the need for management and administrative services as well as the needs of the computer profession. At the same time instruction in technology is not being neglected.

As far as the future is concerned, it can be expected that the OFS Technikon will enter certain branches of agricultural instruction in order to satisfy the growing needs of the agricultural sector in the central part of our country. Two fields of study are envisaged, namely agricultural management and civil engineering, with agriculture as a specialty.

The OFS Technikon is also making a special contribution towards the process of the rationalisation of tertiary education in Bloemfontein. This process is not a painless one, and for this reason the board and the rector of this technikon deserve our highest praise in this regard.

Therefore, whilst I am emphasising the importance and the necessity of technikon education this afternoon, I also appeal to the hon the Minister, his department and every hon member to do everything in their power to promote this component of tertiary education wherever possible in the interests of the country. South Africa needs the technikons.

Mr P I DEVAN:

Mr Chairman, education has its challenges in South Africa and especially in the present transitional phase the challenges posed by education are tremendous. Therefore I would like to extend my thanks and congratulations to the hon the Minister and his department.

I am particularly pleased and I am sure many people will share the feeling that the improvement effected in education, especially over the past 5 years, is a matter for gratification. This has come about as a result of a realistic approach towards the needs of our people, particularly the masses in the Black sector. What has made it possible is the increase in the budget for education as a whole and for Black education in particular.

We noted it when the hon the Minister indicated that 6,6% of the gross national product has been expended on education. This is encouraging. I want to make the statement that growth in the economy will increase manifold if the political and social problems in this country are resolved. The hon the Minister did indicate that unless the economy of the country increases the money available to keep education going as desired will not be adequate.

I want to say again that for as long as we maintain separate group institutions so long will we be responsible for perpetuating race conflicts. I have my reservations and that is that there will be misunderstanding between group and group. The very factor that we intend to overcome, the very issues that we want to resolve by keeping groups in separate compartments will have counter-productive effects in realising a nation where there is goodwill and understanding, where there is mutual respect and where there is harmony. This is my fear.

For the time being it is all right as a short term goal but I cannot see the differences in this country being resolved. I can tell you, of all the forces at work to move the destinies of the human race, education will play a vital and challenging role. I think in this area, I may say, more than in any other area it is necessary that whilst we make do with the structures that we have, educationists and leaders of this country will have to look for fresh solutions from decade to decade, from generation to generation because it is so important, especially in this multinational country of ours.

As I have said in respect of separate residences in other forums, it is natural for people to live in groups, to group themselves, to find themselves in separate areas according to natural affinity. However, once this is legislated for, it becomes objectionable.

Let us look at the case of the United States of America. There is no legislation there which proposes to keep the people separate, but the people are living separately there. There is no law which calls for a Chinatown in many parts of the world, but one finds Chinatowns in many parts of the world.

This problem which we want to solve through legislation could be solved by the people themselves, who after all have to live together. I cannot think of a more sensible way, if one wants people to live together in harmony and understanding with all their assets and abilities put together for the betterment of the country, than allowing them to sit, to learn and to share values together.

The Black population of South Africa, whose numbers we sometimes dread, could be turned into a great asset to this country by educating them. Education must be employed to improve their quality of life. It is socio-economic improvement which is necessary and which will result in limiting the number of children among the Blacks. Education will provide this country with its skilled manpower needs of the next few decades. It is also education which is necessary and which will to a large extent upgrade the masses in this country from the Third World category in which they find themselves. This upward move will assist them in becoming worthy citizens of this country, where many of the artificial differences which we perceive will be wiped away.

Earlier I indicated that there has been an improvement and I can say from my discussions with Black leaders and educationists that although they have their reservations, they are to a large extent pleased with the improvements which have been made. As I walked around with officials of the Education Department, the DET in particular, I observed noticeable improvements. They are remarkable and indeed spectacular in some respects. These we acknowledge.

Let us take a look at certain figures from the matriculation examination. In an article in The Natal Mercury dated 10 September 1986 the heading read: “Only one in 100 Black pupils passes matric, says Steyn.” The article reads further:

Only one in 100 Black pupils in South Africa received a matriculation certificate and even this was perceived to be inferior by comparison with its White and Indian counterpart.

Firstly, I would like to refute this. At no time were the results of the Black matriculants as bad as this. I really feel that this article has probably done a great deal of harm to the good of education. Be that as it may, of the 96 000 candidates who sat for the matriculation examination in 1986, 48 193 passed which was 50,2% of the total. In the same year 12 044 pupils passed in the matriculation exemption category, which meant one in every eight pupils.

That can be improved and the improvement did come. In the following year a larger number of 137 600 candidates wrote the exam, of whom 77 454 passed, which was 56,3% of the total. The number which passed with matriculation exemption was 39 354, which was 28,6% of the total.

This result could certainly be bettered faster by providing teachers who are better qualified in the sciences, mathematics and languages.

These are the areas which retard the matriculation results. If we provide the Black schools with better qualified teachers in the subjects which I have mentioned there will be startling improvements.

The hon the Minister is on record as having said that education is an own affair. I have dealt partly with this. The hon the Minister indicated that education was an own affair for each group and that it would remain so for as long as the people demonstrated a wish for it. If I may read a conclusion into that statement I conclude that that the will of the people indicates the will of the White people. If the reference was made in that context it may perhaps be true, but if the reference is to the people of South Africa as a whole I am afraid it cannot be the case. I do not accept that statement unless it has been proven by some form of referendum.

Very often we hear the statement “separate and equal”, but this statement is paradoxical as it has been proven over and over again that what is separate is not really equal. I want to sum this up by referring to Philip Coombs who made this succinct point in 1969:

Educating a nation and keeping that nation’s educational system in step with the times seems to be many times harder than putting a man on the moon.

On the question of expenditure he adds that there are people who believe that “nothing is wrong with education that money won’t fix” and points out that:

There are in fact important constraints besides money which can limit the speed at which an educational system can expand, change and improve, and sometimes these prove even more unyielding than the money factor.

Yesterday the hon the State President made the statement that “it is necessary to preserve cultural and minority rights”. I have no problem with that statement. I am proud of my culture. I am proud of my ethnicity and I pray that I can preserve the heritage of my race and my cultural heritage, but if this is a reason for separating education I want immediately to disagree. I want to point out that allowing children to attend a common school does not cause them to lose their inherent qualities. Those Indian pupils who have attended private White schools are not one iota more inferior than their counterparts in homogeneous Indian schools in regard to their cultural or ethnic development. In fact, some of them are better and I will tell hon members how this came about. They went to schools like Kersney College, Hilton and Michealhouse and their counterparts saw them actually approaching their religion and culture with a greater measure of keenness and interest. The Indian people who are preoccupied with so many other social and economic needs and responsibilities have been awakened to their own need to become more religious and culturally conscious. Many educational psychologists maintain that 50% of a child’s learning experiences are gained in the home, 30% in the immediate surroundings of the home and only 20% in the formal school.

There has been an improvement in per capita expenditure and that is encouraging.

I am also very pleased to hear from the hon the Minister that the private sector is more and more playing an important role. It is necessary in their own interest and in the interest of the country— which we all love—that the private sector plays a more conspicuous role in the future.

Mr R M BURROWS:

Mr Chairman, it was with no sense of pleasure that the hon the Minister of National Education presented his address to us this afternoon. I found it a depressing experience simply because it reached the point three years later of something announced with both fanfare and hope three years ago.

The questions both of the funding formula and of the 10 year plan have now been in existence for three years and two days. We have seen little or no evidence of the subsidy itself—it has never been shown. We have had little real evidence of the 10 year plan. The hon the Minister’s speech today made it quite clear why.

Regarding the funding formula and more importantly the use of the formula— the hon member for Berg River has already referred to this—it is at present in use by the various education departments. Here the hon the Minister is in trouble. He is in trouble because he cannot announce the formula, because he is seen to be depriving White education of funds they desperately need to maintain high standards and because he is seen not to be providing Black education with sufficient funds.

This speech I wrote yesterday and earlier today and I said that we are probably close now to the final collapse of the system of funding by formula. The hon the Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but I understood him to say today that the fixed formula will only be used if the economy develops, which seems to indicate to me that the formula system for the funding of education has been put behind us. The hon the Minister can correct me a little later.

If the funding formula is to be applied— the hon the Minister has indicated by way of interjection that it has not been scrapped but is still in place—then he must give us that funding formula and he must indicate clearly to us that it will be applied strictly and non-racially.

For those as yet unaware, the funding formula is broadly a single formula to be applied to all departments with inputs on an objective basis in terms of number of pupils, qualifications, number of teachers etc. Outside the brackets of that single formula is the so-called “A factor” which is designed in theory to be one. So the formula will apply to everybody.

It varies according to department. The hon the Minister must indicate to us the use of the A factor at the present moment because the information at my disposal indicates that it is possible that not only has the A factor for the House of Assembly not moved closer to one as it should have done but in the most recent year it has moved away from one—that more money has been allocated to that department rather than less. Similarly the hon the Minister must indicate to us what has happened to the Department of Education and Training. Has it moved closer to one because one is the most desirable quality? Has the real gap changed because of the application of the formula?

The hon the Minister must also indicate what he meant by using the words “a new basis” in his address a little earlier today.

Directly related to the funding formula is the 10 year plan. I have got no doubt about the fact that the 10 year plan is dead. It may be 15 years it may be 20 years but the 10 year plan is now dead.

There is no evidence whatsoever that a 4,1% real growth rate in education funding has been achieved either this year or last year. The pupil numbers are growing at 4,4%— the hon the Minister has indicated this—and the economy is growing at 1,3% on average, therefore funds are not being received in the necessary totality.

I have an additional question that this hon Minister must answer: Has the funding given to the departments even met the growth in inflation, and has it met the 23% increase in teachers’ salaries? Has it even met that? The information that I have received is that that is not the case in some departments. The hon the Minister must check that! The important thing I think we must accept, however, is that the hon the Minister is not presiding over an education empire that is flush with funds—he has already admitted to that—and that it is not increasing except in growth except in the number of clients. He sits there also knowing that there is discontent amongst his own colleagues, those education Ministers, regarding money from Treasury. I am not fingering him, but I am fingering the fact of the distribution of funds. I think this hon Minister has quite rightly indicated that he recognises the courage of education Ministers in executive departments in handling the funds that they have and taking the flak for that.

Let us remember the original intention of the 10 year plan. It was to bring about, as far as possible, the equalization of education spending amongst the various education departments according to their per capita requirements. That is not on track. It is not happening. There is doubt that it was ever on track! The NP believes—it is in the Constitution—that racially separate education departments can be equal. That is their policy!

An HON MEMBER:

It is a myth!

Mr R M BURROWS:

However, they are not and never will be! Today’s speech was a clear indication of that. Even today’s attempts by the NP to make funding superficially equal have failed at the very first attempt. We believe that the hon the Minister must have the political courage to stand up and say: “We have no hope of equalising per capita spending on education whilst we maintain separate racial structures. We must create a unified system, with geographical components.” Not only that, but education should be made our first line of defence and we should radically reassess our national requirements.”

Three years ago it was popular in South Africa to talk about South Africa in the light of Japan and South Korea in using education to get to the forefront of nationhood. We are never going to get there unless we give education its critical and key priority in the national spending. That is going to require sacrifices and it is going to require sacrifices in a number of areas. We have to face up to the fact that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Assembly, Mr Piet Clase, was quite correct when he said that we have an expensive system of education with duplication, triplication and quadrupli-cation.

Here I want to refer to what the hon member for Berg River said earlier about vacant places. We had an interpellation debate not two hours ago in this very Chamber on those vacant places and empty schools. It was mentioned that there are 250 000 vacant places in the Department of Education and Culture of the House of Assembly. There were also suggestions as to how these schools can be used.

The hon the Minister talked about cost-efficiency. I want to talk about cost-efficiency because South Africa is having to pay for school apartheid …

Mr D T DE LA CRUZ:

We cannot afford it!

Mr R M BURROWS:

… while this hon Minister stands up and says one cannot afford it in education as a whole across this country.

We have to have political courage across this country. This hon Minister has to have the political courage of facing up and explaining to South Africa why the amount of money for its universities has decreased in relative terms. Why has the A-value of that formula decreased between 1987 and 1988? Why are the universities scratching and scrounging for money?

Perhaps the hon the Minister can answer questions regarding the overall view of the collection of school funds. He talked about R1,8 billion coming in from private sources into the education system, or is this collection of school funds totally an own affair? I have knowledge about school funds because I pay R600 a year for my own children who are in State schools. Therefore, I want to know whether this is an own affair of that hon Minister or can it be applied by other departments? That surely requires co-ordination.

The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

Must we increase taxes?

Mr R M BURROWS:

This hon Minister knows very well that the policy of this department has been that one must radically reassess the priorities of one’s total budget and that one cannot commence by simply isolating one particular sector.

The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

Tell us where we must take away.

Mr R M BURROWS:

Certainly! Come to the Budget Debate and we will! [Interjections.]

I will move away from money. Allow me to ask a couple of other questions. The South African Council for Education, a statutory body, has met on very few occasions and I would be interested to know what its role is in the present crisis on funding. Then, Sir, what about the SA Certification Council? It came into existence as a result of legislation three years ago. The chief executor’s post was advertised three months ago. What else has happened to the SA Certification Council? What has happened to the JMB? What is happening about the so-called independent examining board which the private schools wish to bring into existence? How is that going to relate to the SACC? [Time expired.]

*Mr J D JOHNSON:

Mr Chairman, I would like to redirect this debate because we are fast approaching the end of this century. We have been involved in education along with this hon Minister and his officials for the last five years, and this afternoon it seems to have passed in the blink of an eye. I jotted down here in front of me that I thought that the most important mistake in our country was that we have too many political connotations in our education. It is also high time we set these political differences aside when we speak about education. [Interjections.]

I am being shouted at again! [Interjections.] I want us to listen and to address education as such together. We must sit down together at a round table and build up education and spell out what we want and look at where the child will be in education at the end of this century.

A certain organisation had what I thought was a fine motto. I still see it so clearly before me—“let us live for our children”. Based on that slogan, I want to mention certain aspects this afternoon, without statistics, and present them to the hon the Minister and his department.

Number one today, Sir, is my big question which I would like to put to the department, with regard to the fact that education must create a mechanism to provide as quickly as possible trained mechanics, tradesmen, orientated businessmen and so on—people who will ensure that productivity is increased. Our country must be open not only to graduates, but also to the competitive offer by every other trained person. The need in our country today for correct training is very great.

That brings me to the point of the speedy establishment of a well-situated technical college or colleges, linked to universities. A previous speaker described it very well, and I want to associate myself with what he said. South Africa lacks technical training. The demand out there is for trained technicians, and no longer for these academic people who simply want to shout and make a fuss. Our country needs those people, and we have procrastinated too long in that regard.

I am going to mention a few towns. George does not need a university. George needs a technical college, linked to the University of Port Elizabeth. Upington does not need a university. Upington needs a technical college. In this way, if I glance at the map, I can indicate certain points—certain towns—in which all population groups should be able to receive this sort of education.

*Mr D T DE LA CRUZ:

What about Worcester?

*Mr J D JOHNSON:

Mr Chairman, that brings me to another point which has been raised often this afternoon. What is the state of affairs at our universities? South Africa has become too preoccupied with university education. If we do not have a son or a daughter in a family who goes to university, then we do not have that status symbol which makes us feel important in society.

As a result of this, our universities are overcrowded with students today. It costs the State R8 000 per year, if my figures are correct, to keep a student at university. I want the hon the Minister to tell us in his reply how many of these students do in fact pass. We remain silent on this question, but the fact is that if a son or a daughter has passed matric, he or she must go to university. It does not matter whether he or she is ready for this type of education or not, because, after all, it is going to provide the family with the necessary status. That is what happens, instead of which the father should go to church and acquire that status on the church council. [Interjections.]

I want to mention to the hon the Minister that I received statistics according to which 29 out of 1 000 students—I am talking about Whites—go to university, while in Britain with its age-old university system, only seven out of 1 000 students are sent to university. I am mentioning this group only and am not even talking about my group, but it suggests to me that there are students there who do not belong there. I am not going to push them to one side. I will return to the matter of technical education.

The following point that I want to discuss—it was mentioned briefly—is that of career guidance. I feel that in this regard we could become more purposeful and educate our youth in such a way that a career would be more attractive to him or her. At the end of the day we could then send a productive worker into the world. [Interjections.] The worker must have backbone.

South Africa has had universal achievements in many fields, but there are still many areas in which all population groups could make their rightful contribution. I would like to refer the hon the Minister to a point which was not mentioned, namely that Black education is already involved in this career guidance. For that reason I feel that we politicians should talk less and spend more time looking at what is being done there. [Interjections.] I want hon members to note that after the Second World War, West Germany, which had been bombed to the ground, was once again able to become a country to be reckoned with by means of this type of guidance. This guidance will ensure that we will need fewer foreign skilled artisans and others to help us. [Interjections.]

I feel that the hon members who spoke to the hon the Minister before me, once again indulged in the typical and age-old political claptrap. Let us throw this afternoon’s debate overboard and reform education, because pure education in South Africa is necessary. [Interjections.]

Mr D T DE LA CRUZ:

You cannot separate the two, Johnny!

*The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order!

*Mr J D JOHNSON:

Let us spend less time staring at certain negative aspects and let us try to build on the positive building blocks. Then the LP will come to the fore. Things will then be the way I remember them, and there will not simply be shouting.

In conclusion I firmly believe that this is the final opportunity in which we will find the present hon the Minister in this capacity. A challenge awaits him. I personally hope that the hon the Minister will realise his ideals. The hon the Minister’s initials are FW. The “F” stands for format and the “W” means that he has the willpower to take this important matter, namely education, further in the attainment of his ideals. [Time expired.]

*Mr P G MARAIS:

Mr Chairman, it very pleasant to stand here and speak after the hon member for Esselen Park. The hon member is what one would call a fine person. I have great admiration for him, and he knows it. He is well-balanced in his behaviour. Today that attribute was apparent once again. In good Boland Afrikaans his theme was: “Suid-Afrika makeer tegniese onderwys”. I want to inform hon members that there is nothing wrong with that argument—our country does need technical education.

Allow me the opportunity, at the start of my speech, to pay tribute to the hon the Minister of National Education for the excellent work he is doing under difficult circumstances. As we heard in his introductory speech today, he really works under very difficult circumstances. We thank him for his friendliness and for the fact that his door is always open to all hon members of Parliament.

I also thank the Director-General and his personnel for the co-operation that we always receive from them, especially for the neat and informative annual report, that was delivered to us in good time. One is grateful for that. My congratulations to Dr Bernard Louw who has become the Director-General of Education and Training. He is a skilled and sympathetic official of whom I expect a great deal. I add my congratulations to those conveyed by the hon the Minister to Dr Lucas Stoop and his colleague, the two doctors who have been appointed Deputy Director-Generals.

As an MP who represents a constituency in which an important university is situated, I cannot but refer to universities in a debate such as this. Today I have an additional reason for doing this, and that is the speech made by the hon member for Brits. With reference to the hon member’s speech I wish to say at once that I believe that the most universities in our country excercise their powers in terms of the principle of autonomy with exceptional responsibility. This certainly applies to the University of Stellenbosch, which is our Alma Mater. For that one is very grateful.

The hon member saw fit to make many negative remarks about Stellenbosch here today reference to the talks certain Matie students had with the ANC. The hon member conveniently omitted to mention that only 10 students out of approximately 14 000 participated in such talks. In addition a substantial part of the tour group involved did not participate in the talks. Even though they were in Lusaka as part of the group, a substantial proportion did not talk to the ANC.

The hon member also omitted to mention that the talks that took place were condemned by the majority—and I want to say the overwhelming majority—of the Matie students. One must at least get one’s facts straight and I think one must display a measure of equilibrium before dragging the name of an esteemed institution such as the University of Stellenbosch through the mud. I state categorically here today, and I want it to be recorded in Hansard, that Stellenbosch still stands for the idea. The University of Stellenbosch as an institution still stands strongly as ever for everything that is dear to the Afrikaner, but we practice our Afrikaner ideals with moderation, level-headedness, tolerance and love for all South Africans with whom we share this country, and with whom we gladly share the facilities and privileges of the University of Stellenbosch.

The hon member referred to Prof H B Thom and certain remarks made by him. Prof Thom was an esteemed friend and neighbour of mine. I knew him very well and spoke to him often. I want to tell the hon member today that it is a pity that Prof H B Thom’s name was mentioned in this respect during this debate, because if he had still been alive today, I have no doubt that he would have rejected the CP as a political movement.

The importance of universities as the institutionalisation of academic thoughts, and therefore also of man’s striving for knowledge, cannot be over estimated. Universities provide the high-level manpower that has the necessary skill and expertise to think in such an innovative way that it can initiate and administer advanced technological development. South Africa needs such people badly to service its industries and exports. The best lecturing staff must be recruited to train the kind of manpower that is required. This, however, is where the problem lies. At the moment universities cannot compete with the salaries offered in the private sector to obtain the best manpower to be used as lecturers. In the report of the chief committee of the CUP inquiry into macroaspects of the university system within the tertiary context of education in the RSA, which was published in 1987, this statement was made, and I quote:

The primary problem confronting the tertiary sector is the inability of the State to contribute to the estimated ideal costs of universities.

Here they are naturally referring to the curtailment of subsidy payments. In my opinion the report continues in a completely realistic way by accepting that it is unlikely that the State will, in the foreseeable future, be able to pay its assumed subsidy contribution fully in the foreseeable future. Today it is clear, especially with reference to the hon the Minister’s speech, that that assumption in the report was correct.

However, the report has a suggestion to make, namely that study fees be increased and that a limited and voluntary State-administered loan scheme for students be established. The CUP plan assumes that the State can be persuaded to lend students a specific amount for their study expenses. Study expenses could then be increased in order to make a contribution to the deficit in the State subsidy without placing too heavy a burden on the shoulders of the students. This seems to be a channel that must at least be investigated. I wish to inquire from the hon the Minister whether something like that is not already being considered by his department pursuant to the CUP report. If not, I wish to inquire whether it is possible for such an investigation to be instituted. Of one thing we are sure, and that is that we shall have to try to improve the financial position of the universities, particularly so that further salary adjustments for lecturers may be considered on merit; otherwise the university system in our country as well as the country as a whole will suffer unacceptable harm.

Next I want to deal briefly with the argument that all schools should be opened to all race groups and, by implication, that all our education problems in the country can be solved in this manner.

I have great feeling and sentiment for the thoughts of those colleagues who mention it here. However, I believe that it is an over-simplification that does not entirely take reality into account. If we should integrate the whole education system tomorrow and open all the schools without further ado, we would still not solve all the problems that confront us. It might solve the individual problems of some, but the problem of the vast majority of the pupils will continue to exist. I see the hon member for Pinetown is nodding his head. He agrees with that. [Interjections ] I also believe that he will agree with me that we have to tackle the problems ourselves. We shall not be able to avoid our problems.

What are those problems? They are things that have been mentioned here today, namely the education level of teachers, differences in teacher-pupil ratios, milieu retardation of pupils and many more. Such handicaps cannot be overcome overnight, not even under very favourable financial circumstances, and least of all by simply throwing schools open.

In any case, I believe that education must be closely related to family life and community life. A person does a child an injustice by removing him from his environment and forcing him into another social and cultural environment. A child must be brought up and educated in his own interests within the framework of his home environment. It is a truth that the Americans are also starting to realise now. During a recent study tour to the USA, many pedagogues informed me of this.

An article in the New York Times of 16 November 1987 described it in this way:

Increasingly, Black politicians, educators and community leaders have risked uncomfortable answers as they confront the plagues of crime, poverty and poor academic performance. The answers remain elusive. But to stifle reasonable debate would merely perpetuate myths that equality implies sameness and that differences suggest inferiority.

This is a truth we have known for a long time. [Time expired.]

Mr P C NADASEN:

Mr Chairman, I want to commence by applauding the hon member for Pinetown for his revelation today in an interpellation debate that there are about 200 000 vacancies in White schools. It must be remembered, while we are talking about finances, that the allocation for those 200 000 students or pupils could be used by other races—Indians, Blacks, Coloureds or whatever—but it seems that this Government persists in using that money only for their own purposes.

In South Africa today, there is a conflagration. Not many are aware of this, but in the area that I come from, thousands of Blacks have been killed in the past four years. I do not condone these acts of violence, but the politics of this country must be held responsible for this situation. I refer in particular to areas such as Sobantu Village, Edendale, Imbali and Hammarsdale, where such events have become the order of the day.

What makes the Blacks go berserk? Is it not the lack of sufficient education? I am fully aware that in the past extra-parliamentary forces used the slogan “liberation before education,” but they have now relented and changed their stance to one of wanting education before liberation.

More than 80% of this country’s population is Black, and what the Government has given this 80% during the past 40 years of its rule amounts to virtually nil. The hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid told us—I think the hon member for Pinetown mentioned this—that in ten years there would be equality in education. Now I personally cannot see such a thing coming to pass for a long time, because I think this is merely Government rhetoric to gain political mileage.

The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

I never said that we would achieve equality in ten years.

Mr P C NADASEN:

The hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid said so.

At the moment the Blacks are in the same position; hence their militancy. We were told that we would have equal education in ten years, whether it was the hon the Minister of National Education or the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid who said so, but ten years is a bit too long. Who knows? By that time we might have a Black State President and the possibility is that there will be a preponderance of Blacks in this Parliament.

If the Blacks have to legislate for the Whites then it will be a question of the boot being on the other foot. I would like to know how the other side would feel about this. Whether it reverts to the Verwoerdian system of education or whatever, my stand will still be that what is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.

This Government has landed us in an inextricable mess as far as education is concerned, giving more for those who have it and less for those who do not have it. Blacks have got the worst end of the proverbial stick. Even the Coloureds seem to have been neglected. The Indian community by dint of sheer perseverance have built their own schools as it has been our philosophy that we must remain not just mere cane growers, but must exceed that role by far. This has paid dividends, but no thanks to the Government. Today we hold our own in most ways. We need more money for our education but this Government seems to concentrate merely on White survival.

The hon the Minister talked about discrimination and the pupil-teacher ratio. Why not have more teachers for Indian schools? Why is the quota so completely different from that for White schools? Hundreds of Indian teachers are roaming the streets. This Government must provide the funds so that they can be employed. They could be afforded if the hon the Minister budgeted for them.

Dr T J KING:

Mr Chairman, I shall not react to the hon member for Allandale at length as I have only 10 minutes in which I wish to make a proposal which I consider to be of greater importance. However, I will refer to what he has said about Indian education.

I would like to point out to him that what he has said about the way the Indian community has worked towards improving their education, very much applies to the White Afrikaans community as well. The situation of our schools today has very much been the responsibility of parents and the communities themselves. [Interjections.] They have not always waited for the Government to make the handouts. [Interjections.]

*I should like to refer to two matters, which are repeatedly broached by opponents of the NP, before I come to the actual subject of my speech. Constantly there are malicious misrepresentations by ignorant laymen trying to score cheap political points in front of certain kinds of audiences. Here I am referring, in particular, to two aspects.

The first concerns the so-called single system of education which we supposedly do not have, or which we otherwise do have, according to rightwing elements, who regard it as a threat to the White man. As far as left-wing elements are concerned, they ask for such a system, whilst right-wing elements reject it. One does not, in point of fact, know whether these people really understand what a system of education is.

We have only one system of education in the Republic of South Africa. [Interjections.] Just as the USA has only one system of education, in spite of the fact that there are 50 states with a very large number of districts and counties within each of those states, each has its own education department, we in our country have one system of education. Perhaps it is necessary, at times, to give a few talks on what a system of education is so that we can subsequently perhaps have fewer problems. [Interjections.] What we do have in South Africa—perhaps hon members should listen—are various sub-systems within one system of education. There is no other system but one for a country, but within that system one differentiates.

The second matter involves the fact that our CP friends, in particular, are always referring to the overall situation in regard to this Department of National Education. They consider it a threat when all the groups are jointly involved in decisions about those three matters designated in the schedule to the Constitution, claiming that ultimately this prejudices the own affairs situation.

That is not the case at all. It seems to me as if being a clergyman does not always enable one to gain a proper perspective about how these aspects are connected. Does the hon member for Brits, amongst others—in the previous two years’ budget debates he harped on this each time—want different standards to be applied so that White workers are ultimately discriminated against when for example, with a matriculation certificate of a higher standard, they have to compete for the same job with a person from another group?

It seems to me it is not possible for them to understand that. That is what the Department of National Education does, ie ensure that ultimately everyone has the same opportunities when he leaves the system, but let me now go on to something else.

In 1987 the hon member for Brits said—I am referring to Hansard: House of Assembly, vol 18, col 2387, but I am not quoting verbatim— that the Whites regarded it as their responsibility and privilege to pay for the education of their children. What I repeatedly want to advocate today, ie the semi-privatisation of education, will make this possible. It will just be very interesting to see how CP supporters accept this. We shall, in fact, again be referring them to these words in Hansard by their spokesman on education.

By the way, I greatly appreciated the hon member for Berg River’s speech. By way of a quote I just want to point out an interesting research finding which I shall refer to again at a later stage. He must please accept this in the spirit in which it is intended. This is also applicable as far as the previous speaker, the hon member for Annandale, is concerned. It relates to the allocation of finance to the various groups. Here I am referring to research done in 1988 by the economic research unit of the University of Natal in Durban. It was done for the Urban Foundation and, is entitled “The Social Costs of South African Education”, and I quote:

Bearing in mind that the data is incomplete, it is nevertheless interesting to note that the percentage of total costs referring to Coloured (10,4%) does not differ significantly from their proportion of the population (10,5%) or their percentage composition of the total enrolments of the state education institutions (9,8%).
An HON MEMBER:

That is a theory!

Dr T J KING:

It is not a theory. These are facts. I quote further:

The percentage of total costs attributable to Indians (5,0%) is slightly higher than their percentages either in the population (3,2%) or in total enrolments (3,1%). Glaring disparities occur for Blacks and Whites. With 68,1% of the population and 73,3% of enrolments, Blacks incur only 35,2% of the social costs.

Theirs is in other words negative. The report goes on to state:

However, 49,4% of the costs are incurred on behalf of Whites, who only constitute 18,2% of the population and 13,9% of enrolments.

*From this it is very clear that at this stage the Whites very definitely still have the benefit, and we most certainly do not deny that, but it is also true that the Coloureds and the Indians are, in fact, by now receiving their rightful share. [Interjections.]

Our major problem actually lies with Black education, and also with the co-operation of communities that are themselves becoming involved. I can remember how, as a child, I helped pull out weeds and plant grass on the rugby field.

Last year in fact, in the discussion of the Vote, I made out a case for the semi-privatisation of education. With the singular conviction that it could perhaps contribute to a solution of the problems we have in regard to financing and the growth of our school populations, as was also indicated here today by the hon the Minister, I made an in-depth study of the issue, in the USA too, and eventually delivered a paper on financing by way of semi-privatisation.

What is semi-privatisation or “halfprivatiser-ing”? In HAT the meaning of the word “half”, as an adjective or adverb, is given as follows:

Nie geheel nie; gedeeltelik, deels … ’n groot deel van.

Privatisation is geared to the exploitation of the free-market principle and is based on three principles or strategies:

  1. (i) To change the Government’s role as supplier of products and services to that of facilitator of such products and services;
  2. (ii) To divert the demand to the private sector …

According to current research the private sector makes an approximately 12,1% contribution to the overall expenditure in respect of education in the country—

… and encourage consumers to obtain services in the private sector rather than in the public sector; and
  1. (iii) to diminish the so-called interest coalitions (bureaucracies and the consumers) that constantly exert pressure for increased State expenditure.

Semi-privatisation therefore embodies the partial exploitation of the free-market mechanism, because the State’s contribution to the major portion of the population will always be necessary.

The model I want to propose involves starting with the State which would supply only the basic elements—in other words virtually just the four walls and a basic educational salary. Then there must be further devolution on a regional basis, very much like the regional services councils. Funds must be collected so that they can be distributed, as in the case of regional services councils at present, to the various socio-economic groups. But then there is also the third tier, the fundamental tier where one actually finds the parents and the teachers to be involved, because they are the ones who are primarily responsible for education. The school itself must be the core in which the management takes place. At the moment a tremendous amount of research is being done in the USA into, what is called “school-based management”. [Time expired.]

*The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE (Representatives):

Mr Chairman, at the beginning of this debate I should just like to extend our congratulations to Prof Eloff of Northern Transvaal on his appointment as chairman of the International Rugby Board. I think it is a great honour that has been bestowed upon him. It would also be a good thing just to recall in this debate, which also has to do with sport, that this year is the centenary celebration of South African rugby, as well as that of cricket. Because our sport has fallen out of the international arena, I am sure that few of us are prepared to talk about it. [Interjections.] I would advise hon members to buy season tickets, if they wish to take my advice.

*The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

With the SWD?

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

With the SWD, which also has a good chance of winning the Curry Cup. [Interjections.] I should very much like to come back to the debate, in the sense that I wish to say that the NP really has the key to open the door to a new South Africa, to allow people in or out and to either let real changes take place or to halt change in its tracks. They can either throw us into the abyss or lead us to a new horizon. I want to make this appeal to this mighty party today, because I am sure that they will have no problems with their present opposition. I believe that they have the will to change, but I also believe that they are sometimes hesitant to display the courage to change. I do not believe one should take risks with the future of one’s country, but if one does not introduce change, and if one does not move, then one is also taking risks, and that is just as dangerous.

In the reform process which we are going through at present in South Africa, it is important to note that the people do, in fact, wish to experience that change and reform at different levels. We have clearly seen how far we have progressed with the present system at the political level. At the economic level there is now a tendency to privatise—to bring in the private sector and to create opportunities. All of this is helping to create more room to manoeuvre within the social structure and the social manner.

What worries me, is the fact that the NP is not clear with regard to how the present educational system is going to fit into the new political system. The NP is not prepared to make changes now so that the educational system may also be accommodated in the new South Africa. I want to ask the hon the Minister how we are going to enter the new South Africa with the present educational system? After all, the political system which has to be created to accommodate Blacks is not going to be satisfied with this system. That is as plain as a pikestaff.

I believe that we must adapt to a new educational system. The hon the State President said that we had to govern our way into a new Constitution. I say that we must begin to live our way into a new educational system. That is why it is important for us to take certain points of contact and to work with them. I want to tell the hon member Dr King that we must not play with words of one system. The hon member for Esselen Park must not attempt to hoodwink people with regard to what he means.

There is only one system which will give all our people economic, social and political satisfaction, and that is one educational system. If we are not prepared to implement this the day the new political dispensation arrives, we are not going to make the political system in this country acceptable to anyone. For this reason I am now pleading that we should begin to bring together the communities, the economies and the social lives of all our groups and that we should adapt to them so that the change will not be so dramatic that some of us will run away. [Interjections.]

We clearly saw how great the fears of White South Africa were when we came to this Parliament in 1984. And after 1984, where are we now? The old tricameral system is also about to be tossed onto the wagon—to be carted away. Under the new system we are sitting jointly for more than 90% of the time and separately for approximately 10% of the time. In the beginning we sat jointly 10% and separately 90% of the time. We have made progress. The successes of the past five years must give us the nerve and the courage to address this task of education as well. We must take the political partnership with us into the system of education and we must take the educational partnership with us into the political system.

The socialisation process which has taken place in Parliament over the past five years must give us sufficient courage, and is also of sufficient significance to enable us to extend those socialisation processes to the community at large. Unfortunately we find that we have an educational system in which there is total separation— separation from one another in to separate structures, without social reform, without contact, and without any chance of interaction in social, cultural, religious and sporting activities. Those activities that do, in fact, take place, take place outside the school context.

The LP, which is in charge of own affairs, has decided that we are not going to take risks with the education in our ranks. [Interjections.] I shall come back to that hon member later.

We have decided to open up our schools. This is our contribution to the future of South Africa. This contribution will prove to other people that we in this country can, in fact, live together.

Before the hon member answers me, I first want to tell the hon the Minister that what is happening at the University of the Western Cape is not to our credit, and that the situation there is detrimental to what we are attempting to achieve. The hon members on the right hand side of this House are now using that specific situation as a counter-argument to my argument that we do, in fact, have an open system.

I want to say today that we, in our South African context, must look to the universal person; to the person in his totality; to the person and the child who are going to live in the new South Africa— not a South Africa which we want to create, but a South Africa which those children will create for themselves. The task of education as such will therefore have to be to prepare South Africa as a whole. If the politicians of today do not wish to do this, it will do no good to search for a political key to the future, because people cannot live with political keys. They have to live with a social key. The political key must also be accepted by those people. We know that our education has been shattered in certain parts of our community because a political connotation is being attached to education. We cannot but recognise that this is not good for education.

Let us take a look at a portion of the De Lange Report.

†It was also recommended that the greatest possible degree of autonomy be given to schools at local level in respect of certain matters and that the freedom of association according to the wishes of parents, teachers and communities at that level should be given greater weight in decision-making.

*All I am appealing for, is that we should come back to this one proposal of the De Lange Report, namely that parents and communities should have the right to decide what they want for their children within their own society.

*An HON MEMBER:

Read a little further!

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

I am not talking about anything else that was said. I am talking about that specific concept.

I should also like to come back to the Government’s White Paper. The White Paper also acknowledges this principle. However, what is the Government doing? The Government is preventing people from applying this. The Government says that a free choice is being left open in this regard, but we are nevertheless prevented from doing this. How many White schools have not already requested the hon the Minister of National Education or the own affairs Minister concerned in the House of Assembly to implement this? Would this not also be a forerunner to incorporate us into a new South Africa? No! What do we find instead of this? We find a rejection of this! And then we hope to bring about a new South Africa!

Let us take the Manpower legislation as an example. Students consisting of various race groups, but the same age groups, may be prepared here for the occupation which they wish to enter. However, in the field of educational training this has to take place separately! The same people of the same age groups can be trained at the one institution as racially-mixed groups, but this cannot take place at another institution.

I do not think we should only have those young men brought together on the borders of Namibia when the Defence Force brings them together. I believe we could bring them together earlier. I believe that those of us who are working here with the political system of South Africa have a duty towards our people to work on the new educational system as well. The challenge of National Education is, as I have already told the hon the Minister on a previous occasion, not only the determination of policy. I believe that the challenge to National Education is also to tackle the new challenges in South African society, and not merely by way of formulas. I believe that if a financial formula cannot be found which can be applied in an orderly fashion, we must all be prepared to make sacrifices, provided that we are all part of that one system. Then at least we would all know where we stood.

However, what is the problem with formulas? The problem with formulas lies in the fact that we are separate and we blame one group when we do not receive enough money. Let us therefore usher in the new system so that we may all experience what it really means to have a shortage of funds.

Mr S C JACOBS:

[Inaudible.]

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

The socialisation process in education will help us to absorb the drama of change in the future without the hon member for Losberg having to be afraid of it. Of course, he will never in his life be able to accommodate it, because you see, Sir, even now he is not preparing himself for it. How can he still have hope for his children in a new South Africa?

The deficiencies in our educational system are largely responsible for the problems we are experiencing with regard to relations. I appeal today that in these last months of our term of government we should arrive at an insight with regard to what we must do for the future of the country, and that we should desist from attempting to hoodwink people with election speeches.

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

Mr Chairman, I want to make only two references to the hon the Deputy Minister’s speech. One of these is connected with the University of the Western Cape. For the hon the Deputy Minister’s sake, I want to express it like this. I think he should really agree with us that there is a growing realisation among Coloured students on the campus of the University of the Western Cape that those people who are catalysts as regards further problems on that campus are mainly Black students—radicals and militants—who are moving onto that campus. I think he should also agree that the Coloured students are resisting this and that they have also stated this in public.

Surely it does not make sense to argue in favour of open universities if this is the feeling which is being manifested already by Coloured students themselves at the University of the Western Cape, even if it is only on a limited scale. [Interjections.]

The second reference which I want to make to the hon the Deputy Minister’s speech deals with his comment that the NP need not be too wary of the CP. I think he is making just a little mistake. [Interjections.] When one sees how the NP has lost ground in simple municipal by-elections from Carolina to Newcastle over the past few months, it is clear that they are losing ground systematically. [Interjections.]

*Mr P T STEYN:

You are clearly no good at arithmetic!

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister of Education and Culture sees fit on the one hand to create the impression that he is opposed to party politics in management council elections at White schools but on the other hand he also sees fit to rise here in the House of Assembly and to make triumphant announcements when the NP conducts a party-political election in a management council once in a blue moon and achieves success.

I want to give hon members of the NP the good news that a campaign of theirs which stretched over months in Potgietersrus failed once again last night and that the parents gave two thirds of their support to those conservative parents who take an interest in the White pupils at that school. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister of National Education who is now also the leader-in-chief of the NP—as he likes to call himself and as he is introduced on television—admitted this afternoon that he had failed as far as his efforts were concerned, as announced on 16 April 1986, to make spectacular progress toward equality in the education of the various population groups by means of a ten-year plan and the financing of education.

This is far removed from his image as the great reformer. This image is created in an effort to try to save what can still be saved of the NP. He admitted this afternoon that a critically important aspect of NP policy in the sphere of education had failed. It has failed. The hon member for Pinetown is correct in saying that the ten-year plan is dead. It is stone dead—as dead as a doornail.

Not only did the hon the Minister plead guilty this afternoon and plead for extenuation but he also took the opportunity to lay the blame on a colleague of his. He took the opportunity to lay the blame on the hon the Minister of Finance as if the weak economy were to blame for the failure in planning in the educational context. [Interjections.]

With every respect, the hon the Minister first tried to lay the blame on sanctions but this was only by means of a few words in a long sentence. He then moved far away from that because he knew that he could not furnish reasons. During the rest of his speech he laid the blame on the weakness of the economy. It is a perpetual charge against the weak economic policy of this Government. [Interjections.] It is a charge against this Government’s inability to place the economy, which they received in a relatively sound condition, back on the road to recovery. [Interjections.] If the hon the Minister of National Education is pinning his hopes, as he did this afternoon, on his belief that we shall have sufficient will, daring and perseverance to come out on the other side in spite of this picture of doom which he sketched to us, I want to tell him that nobody in South Africa has that much will, daring or perseverance.

He says that the financing of education will be placed on a solid foundation only when the economy has recovered. We say to him, however, that he can forget about the financing of education ever being on a solid foundation in terms of his policy. That day will never dawn in terms of NP policy. In fact, NP policy will lose ground in future in the sphere of education too, as has been the experience over the past few years since they accepted power-sharing. It will only be placed on a solid foundation if the policy which brought the country prosperity, sound education, growth and opportunities for all population groups, that is separate development, assumes its rightful place again. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister is unfortunately also in the position that he has been warned that this policy of his would not succeed. Since the formation of the CP we have warned him repeatedly that it would not succeed. May I be allowed one reference? On 27 June 1987 we said to him:

Equality in the field of education too can only work if all other things are equal.

We mentioned only four of the many factors which reflected inequality in our society. This inequality causes his policy to be wrong in principle and also causes it to be impracticable. We told him that he wanted to enforce equality artificially while all other things were unequal. [Interjections.] We told him that he was asking Parliament for funds for a policy which had to force this dogma of equality to work. It cannot work.

*The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

Are you quoting yourself?

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

If the hon the Minister is really interested in who used those words, he is more than welcome to look them up in Hansard.

*The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

Are you ashamed to admit this? [Interjections.]

*Mr D S PIENAAR:

If the hon the Minister wants more such quotations, I shall let him have them.

The Federasie van Afrikaanse Onderwysers-verenigings also warned this hon Minister and expressed their concern about the deterioration in the teacher-pupil ratio. Prof Maree also warned as recently as Friday evening that rationalisation was not only a type of phantom image. As regards the financing situation, he also said that after a few years—

… ons nou die era van teleurgestelde verwagtinge beleef.

I have less than a minute left and I hasten to reach the hon the Minister’s second failure as regards his policy in the sphere of national education. [Interjections.] Only last year the hon the Minister was boasting that all population groups participated in policy advisory structures. I want to ask him where the Coloureds and Indians are on Reces, the Research Committee on Education Structures, and where the Coloureds and Indians are on the South Africa Council of Education. A final example illustrating the hon the Minister’s claim only last year has this year in practice … [Time expired.]

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

Mr Chairman, I do not wish to get involved in this type of struggle between the NP and the CP. I am quite surprised that the hon member who spoke before me had so much to say. The hon member is a member of the Joint Committee on Education. Nevertheless, one sometimes wonders what the hon member’s policy is because his contribution in the joint committee is truly so narrow-minded that one doubts if he can claim to make a large contribution to another South Africa. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Kempton Park reacted in a very dignified manner to what I had to say. I have a problem with one or two of her remarks. In the one remark she referred to laymen in education. I do not know to whom she was referring, because if she was referring specifically to me I am experiencing a problem with that. [Interjections.]

*Dr T J KING:

The CPs.

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

She has indicated that she was referring to the CPs.

Another matter to which the hon member for Kempton Park referred was that as a child she sometimes had to pull out shrubs to keep the veld clean. I want to tell hon members that I was in a primary school where children not only pulled out shrubs, but also dug out and removed rocks.

*Dr T J KING:

So did we!

*Mr G M E CARELSE:

They conveyed sand with a wheelbarrow because there was no truck to do that. [Interjections.] As a teacher I hung up blackboards and laid water on to the school. If that was an accusation that we as a group do not do enough to bring our education up to standard, I would like to tell the hon member to be careful because this is a thorny issue and she could get hurt.

The hon member for Stellenbosch also surprised me today somewhat. He had a rather defensive attitude towards the right. He should not concern himself with the CP. He should rather defend the left. I think that is more relevant. He is really not threatened by the CP in Stellenbosch. He need not concern himself because they will achieve nothing there.

I now continue with the rest of my speech. I wish to put the serious request that our education be applied in a completely new way. Our education should become an instrument to create democracy, progress and social mobility. The differences in South Africa and in our cultural composition not only make a South Africa a complex country but because of the wide diversity we have at our disposal, result in a very rich community with enormous potential. We need not fear one another’s differences. On the contrary, we should use the differences so that we could inherently move to greater heights. We should therefore not see our differences as a problem that only keeps fears alive.

We should move out of that cocoon. In regard to education, we have a very large responsibility. Because other democratic countries in the world also have to cope with comparative problems, South Africa can probe whichever solutions have been reached overseas. We should not only reach out for the negative things overseas to motivate ourselves, but we should search for solutions and see what we can take out of that which is to our advantage to create a better South Africa.

The LP is prepared to go and search for those solutions together. We should only be granted the opportunity, then we will work together with hon members. Our teachers should be freed from the willingness to place our children on a sacrificial table for the sake of change. We as adults should fight that battle, but not our children. We should keep our children away from the sacrificial table. If we do not do that, we will affect our future.

Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

Mr Chairman, in contrast to a previous speaker who this afternoon said he objected to taking part in a combined debate in this historic House, I am excited about participating in this debate and am totally in agreement with the speaker before me, the hon member for Berg River, who said that the LP was prepared to find solutions with us. From our side we are definitely prepared to find solutions with people like that hon member. It is a pleasure to follow on him.

I very much enjoyed the speech of the hon member for Potgietersrus who lived in my city. As an English teacher I loved his false syllogisms which reminded me of the ones I used to teach my children, one of which goes something like this: Nice people like children; children are loved by Hitler; Hitler is a nice person.

Another false syllogism is: The economy is bad; we cannot do for education what we would like to do; Mr Barend du Plessis is the hon the Minister of Finance; he is responsible for the fact that we cannot do well for education. That is one of the best false syllogisms I have listened to in a long time.

I would like to address this House on a matter that affects all of our communities very badly. It is a matter on which every shade of opinion in this House will agree and which costs our country millions of rand. It costs our universities, that are so short of money, millions of rands as well.

I previously called a group of people “Souties” and was criticised for it. They are the people who listen to opinions from overseas, and tell us that we are wrong because they have a different morality overseas and that they are right. They refer to what I am talking about today as the brain drain but I refer to them as parasites who leave this country. They are the people that take up the scarce resources of this country, suck up all they can and then leave, thus taking all the scarce resources invested in them and spending them in the rich countries where they are better paid. Wealth is produced by a combination of money, machines and men. South Africa needs wealth to feed, clothe, house and protect its people. Money is spent on machinery and manpower in developing our most important asset, namely people. What do we find, however? We find that those whom we have trained with our scarce resources leave us.

More that 1 000 highly trained South Africans left our country last year. This morning on Monitor, as most hon members will have heard, it was stated that we are slowly improving. We improve on the situation every year but the situation is still very bad indeed. To many of those people that leave us I wave a cheerful goodbye. I honestly believe that a highly trained unpatriotic person is of no use anywhere. I am certain that no matter where he goes in the world, he will still be the same sort of person that he is now. He is not going to do them much good. I prefer, in many cases, an untrained ordinary South African.

From 1982 to 1986, during one of the worst recessions this country has ever seen, many doctors and engineers left. For the engineers, there was simply no work in this country, but for the doctors there has always been work to be done in this country. They had no such excuse. In some rural areas in this country there are 30 000 patients to one doctor, and these supposedly noble and righteous people left us in these circumstances.

Hon members will ask me if all of our doctors are like this. Is leaving this country a general trend? I am proud to be a Witsie, and there are 11 Witsies in my family, but I have to admit a very sad fact. It is the Witsies and the UCT students who leave us. Of those who left last year, according to a business survey conducted in November last year by UCT, 90% said they voted for the PFP, now part of the DP. In other words, 90% were against the Government.

One would think that between Wits, Bloemfontein, UCT, Stellenbosch and Medunsa, we should still be able to produce enough doctors in this country. I think we produce 1 000 doctors a year, but with those 1 000 plus the 50 immigrant doctors who come to us, we still do not have enough doctors in our provincial hospitals, our training hospitals or in the outlying areas of this country. Last year Prof John Gear, who is head of the medical school at Wits, said: “We predict that we will lose 100 out of our 1989 class of 220 doctors.”

Mr S C JACOBS:

It is the Government that is creating the instability in this country. [Interjections.]

Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

We will come to that. Forty per cent of all Wits graduates have been lost to the country in the past 20 years, while 90% of those from Pretoria and Medunsa stayed here. Prof Gear said that UCT had probably lost an even larger percentage of their doctors. If we add up 40% of 440 doctors per year over 20 years, we arrive at the staggering figure of something like 3 200 doctors who have left this country.

Including the R4 000 per year in straight fees that the parent of a medical student has to pay for seven years, it costs us—I have a doctor in my family—something like R45 000 to get that child through university, and the cost to the State is something like R75 000. If one takes into account other forms of support by the parent, one arrives at yet another staggering figure. I would think that, including a motorcar and so on, one would probably spend R120 000 out of one’s own income to get a child through medical school.

Worse still, in terms of the opportunity costs of a brilliant young man or woman who would have earned at least R25 000 per year for seven years, it costs this country’s GDP something like a quarter of a million rands for one doctor. The graduates from Wits and UCT take this money out of our economy.

What else do they do? As they write their final examination at Wits—I know this from personal experience—they are given an entry form to write an Afmed examination. The Afmed examination is issued to our children in this country by the American Embassy, and it says: “Write the following examination and you can be admitted to American nationality.” Although it is a hard examination, many of them pass it.

If they do not pass that examination, however, they can travel to Canada and write a childishly easy examination called the Evaluator. After that they have to work for six months in an outlying area in Canada, while they should have been working in an outlying area here, and then they become citizens of Canada. Of the 158 doctors registered in Canada’s Saskatchewan province last year, 39 were from Wits and UCT.

Do they leave for better pay? No, says Prof Gear of Wits. The military call-up and political instability are the two significant factors in their migration. Then he says: “However, at Afrikaans-speaking universities the position is completely different as most of the medical students there support the Nationalist Government.” I am an English teacher, so I am well aware that anybody who says “Nationalist” rather than “National” is using it pejoratively and not adjectivally. That tells us what Prof Gear’s attitude is.

I think that if we examine the stability of countries in this world, or certainly in Africa, we must be granted one thing at least. Whether we have been wrong or right, over the past 20 years our country has been the most stable in Africa and one of the most stable in the world. Half of the argument of those medical students and their parents therefore falls away. It is not the stability of the country they are worried about.

Fair enough. Do they worry about the money? They do worry about the money but with all their nobility and righteousness—they do not like the NP here—they take the NP Government’s money, the NP Government’s education and then they leave because they are totally against the NP. [Interjections.]

I would like to say—there is a lot more that I would like to say at the end of this—this is the truest form of racialism that there is. They talk about our stability. Do hon members know what they really mean? They mean we are going to have a multiracial government in this country. They do not want to stay in it. They want to leave here with their doctor’s degree so that they can go to a White country somewhere else in the world.

Mr M RAJAB:

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Germiston talked about the brain-drain. He quite correctly said that many young White people emigrate because of the insecurity that we have in this country. He is correct there but he failed to tell this Committee that there are also many mature people who have given quite a bit of their lives to this country, who have contributed not only to the coffers of this country but who have also contributed to the well-being of this country, who also emigrate.

Why do they do that? The hon member for Germiston rightly said that they do so because of the political instability. Who is responsible for the political instability? Who is responsible for the political insecurity? I think young people particularly are entitled to some kind of security for the future. I would like to ensure that my children have a future in this country. If the hon member is honest with himself he would also agree with me that he too would like stability and security for his children in this country. This is why people emigrate.

Let me remind the hon member that it was the French Huguenots who came to this country because of insecurity due to religious persecution that took place in France at the time. They came here as a result of insecurity. Let me also tell the hon member that it takes courage to pull up one’s roots to emigrate. People do this when they do not have any sense of security for the future.

Mr D CHRISTOPHERS:

The Afrikaners have security and the English-speakers have not?

Mr M RAJAB:

That hon member has had the platform.

This is the debate on national education. I believe it is on the cards that this is possibly the last National Education Vote that the hon Minister will present and probably defend in this Committee. It is interesting to note that he as leader of the NP hopes to attain the highest office in this land on the basis that he intends to continue with reform in the country in a manner that will transform South African society radically, both in the political as well as in other related spheres.

Despite all the rhetoric that we have heard about this, the question that arises in my mind when I look at this particular portfolio is what reform the hon the Minister has initiated in this important field of national education over the past few years. It is my belief that, on the contrary, he has failed to take the necessary steps in his department that would ensure that as South Africa moves inexorably towards a post-apartheid society a new dispensation is initiated to ensure that the system of national education will respond to the new social, economic and political goals that a post-apartheid era will undoubtedly bring.

Even today he has failed to spell out these reforms and to give us an idea and perspective as to what we may expect from the department. Yet he wishes to appear in the image of the reformer. Surely it is clear to all that the hon the Minister has shown no signs of giving way on the principle of a segregated educational system—that would be what I call reform.

It seems to us in the DP that the hon the Minister will find it more difficult to change on this than to free Nelson Mandela, negotiate with the ANC or even repeal the Group Areas Act. This is precisely because it lies at the heart of the ideology of apartheid. If this is so, I appeal to him to be honest in his beliefs and to correct the media record which casts him in the role of an enlightened reformer.

Three years ago the hon the Minister launched what my hon colleagues called a fanfare of his ten year plan for parity in education. The hon member for Pinetown has rightly asked what happened to this. Before we came to this Chamber we all tried to find out what was happening to this ten year plan. I would like to remind the hon the Minister that at the time at which this plan was launched, the whole rationale behind it was in fact to remove the historical disparities which existed in our different educational components, yet they still remain.

I am aware that our economic situation makes it difficult for us to attain that kind of parity, but I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to do his utmost to ensure that we try to get there. Merely to say that our economic situation does not allow us to do this does not in my estimation solve the problem.

The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

I outlined other initiatives which we are taking.

Mr M RAJAB:

The hon the Minister says that he has outlined the other initiatives which his department has taken. That may well be true, but the fact remains that we in this country have to utilize our resources to their maximum potential. If one looks at education in general and at Black education in particular, one finds that the problem lies not so much in the fact that we do not have a proper allocation in terms of budget spending, but in the fact that we do not have a proper allocation of resources. We all know, for instance, that we have space available in White schools and White teacher training institutions which would improve the quality of education for Black people, but it is an ideology which prevents us from using all of our resources to their maximum potential.

When one speaks of the ten year plan and acknowledges that little is known about its implementation, one also wants to know whether discussions and consultations are taking place or have taken place with the very people which it was meant to benefit. The hon the Minister did not spell that out to us. I would like to know from him whether people were consulted about that ten year plan and what their reaction is now that the plan is dead?

I would also like to ask the hon the Minister whether the real issues of segregation, isolation, legitimacy, relevancy and quality have been addressed by this plan and discussed with the people affected by it? If this is so, what was the response?

Does the hon the Minister not appreciate that the policy of Christian National Education, as enunciated by his party, has failed to ensure that all the people of this country are equipped to progress in a society where opportunities exist? I would like to know from him whether he does not appreciate that in a country with some 3 million people without jobs it is a daunting prospect for matriculants and graduates to go out into the real world and seek work. Does he not appreciate that Blacks particularly have been prepared for the task by a system in which opportunities are far from equal and pupils and in which students who are not White are handicapped?

We believe that what is needed is urgent change to a system of education which perpetuates an inferior education for Blacks and shields Whites from the harsh realities of racism.

Has the hon the Minister not appreciated that the tragedy of our segregated school system lies in the fact that it has failed hopelessly in preparing our children for their future in this country? For far too long South African children have been operating in exclusive cocoons and have been denied the benefit of cross-pollination arising from exposure to different cultures. Educationists here have been imprisoned in the culture of colour and have not been able to define or reflect the reality of a multiracial country. Our system of national education has tended to teach our children to view the world from the narrow perspective of their own culture and this inevitably leads to rejection of anything that cannot be accommodated within its confined category. We are not so naive to suppose the the iniquities of our education system can be resolved overnight. Surely, however, the hon the Minster, if he is enlightened, can start at the level of teacher training, as I have indicated, where a handful of Black colleges fail to meet the needs of millions of pupils in this community and this country whilst many White and Indian institutions remain empty. [Time expired.]

*Mrs R JAGER:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to speak after the hon member for Springfield, but he put so many political questions to the hon the Minister that I really cannot reply to them. Numerous references were made in the debate to the question of economic growth and to the utilisation of resources. I should like to react to them.

In August 1988 a symposium was held in Pretoria on “People for Research and Development in 1988” which emphasised the need for an innovatory policy for research and development which would bring the growth rate and productivity into line with the gross domestic product of the State and which advocated a concentration on development outputs, particularly as far as technology in South Africa was concerned. That the Government accepted a White Paper in June 1988, which contained all these components and which transferred the general policy decisions in respect of technology and innovation to the Ministry of Trade and Industry, is perhaps not widely known yet. Therefore I should like to advocate to the hon the Minister of National Education, who bears the overall responsibility for research, to give better publicity to this White Paper. I also want to thank the hon the Minister for the financial approach adopted in this formulation of policy.

I think it is particularly necessary in this debate to take cognizance of positive contributions. Symposiums such as the one I mentioned earlier are gratifying and essential and can also serve as a good medium for channelling the necessary information for adjustments to policy. Here and there one would even like to receive a status report on the degree to which research activities are being co-ordinated.

From the Government sector experts on tertiary education have pointed out the necessity for quality research, and this has been advocated repeatedly in our country. Quality and expenditure go hand in hand. What does the situation in respect of research in South Africa look like? One can believe it or not, but the expenditure and manpower devoted to research and development has increased significantly between the 1983-84 and the 1985-86 financial year. The national expenditure on research and development increased by 40,1% over this period. The share of tertiary education and expenditure on research and development increased from 19,7% to 28,4% during this period, but that of the business sector, on the other hand, unfortunately decreased from 49,2% to 38,4%. It is also well known that smaller and medium industries frequently do not make any contribution and rely on the State and the larger industries for their continued existence in future.

At the same symposium Prof Philip Smit made the following allegation:

Universities and technikons are the only institutions where high-level manpower is provided in a symbiotic process of training and research. This manpower provides the lifeblood for all sectors of the country, where new knowledge is created which is essential for it to remain competitive in relation to the rest of the world.

Therefore it is very important that the universities should take care to train competent researchers—people with academic know-how, people who are intellectually gifted and trained in research methods. More and more voices are being raised in all quarters calling for formal recognition for such training.

For the quality research programme in South Africa it is necessary to draw a distinction between centres of excellence and centres of expertise, and for them to compliment each other in this important task.

The tight economic situation at present compels universities to seek private sector support. The advantage here is that the university and the private sector are in a client and contractual situation, in which the university serves the specific needs of the client. Research is therefore focused and the excellence can be measured against the need and against the output ratio.

In December 1987 the Committee of University Principals made recommendations in which reference was made to the benefits of an accrediting programme. This proved very beneficial to America, because approximately 35% of the tertiary institutions offered training up to PHD level, while one third offered training up to masters and approximately one third up to the Baccalaureus level. Is it not possible that this can also work for South Africa?

To ensure quality research it is furthermore also necessary, and of the utmost importance, that the researcher and the university should have the necessary access to computerised information systems and that use of the library and laboratories is readily available. Although a large flow of funds is being channelled to the library and information services we must unfortunately mention that there is tremendous negative growth in the purchase of expertise and technology. This entails great future concern and risks for us. It may be that universities are not necessarily using laboratories to the optimum extent.

The definitions of the research tasks of organisations are also very important for quality research. Universities have a long tradition and recently work on this has recommenced. The technikon, its mission and endeavours in this connection, which are at present under scrutiny, will be able to do much to improve co-operation between these two key institutions and to enhance quality research. In order to enhance quality research quality tuition is needed. The question is whether the good lecturer, the man who can convey knowledge in the classroom situation, receives sufficient financial remuneration for his output. Is it not possible to find a way of keeping the young researcher, the new scientist, who is so essential for quality research, at the university for at least a few years?

If we want to make progress and produce a quality research service, we shall have to take a careful look at the teaching of mathematics in South Africa. It is a clearly identifiable area for research, and I quote the words of Dr J G Garbers:

There is an urgent need for human sciences researchers to master numerical skills. The reason is obvious: The multivariability of all human and social phenomena can be ordered by means of qualitative methods, but more particularly by multivariate statistical techniques.

As regards the research and development ability of this country, we are facing phenomenal challenges. To keep the country running economically and socially we will not be able to flinch from these challenges. There is one way of doing this and that is by increasing the number and the quality of researchers by means of a pro-active setting of objectives, and manpower development.

Debate interrupted.

The Committee adjourned at 18h24.

PROCEEDINGS OF THE EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Chamber of the House of Representatives at 15h30.

Mr P T Sanders, as Chairman, took the Chair.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS—see col 5733.

APPROPRIATION BILL (Consideration of Schedules resumed)

Debate on Vote No 25—“National Health and Population Development”:

*Mr J C OOSTHUIZEN:

Mr Chairman, the LP believes in giving credit to whom it is due and expressing criticism where this is justified. I therefore want to assure the hon the Minister of my thanks and appreciation for the approval granted for the erection of a clinic building in Porterville and for the subsidy that is being allocated according to a letter addressed to me by the hon the Minister on 17 March 1989. This subsidy of R65 187 was to have been available only in the 1991-92 financial year. Now the people in Porterville are smiling broadly. We appreciate the hon the Minister’s co-operation.

Last Friday, 14 April, we received the annual report and under the heading “Re-allocation of Health Services” on page 3 I see that certain functions have been transferred to the provincial administrations with effect from 1 April 1988. One of these functions is hospitals for infectious and communicable diseases. The hon the Minister will have to help me here. To date nursing staff at the hospital for communicable diseases in Malmesbury have not received their 15% increases that came into effect in January of this year. Apparently no one knows which authority is responsible for the hospital. I trust the hon the Minister will clear up the uncertainty so that these people can receive their increases as well as their arrear remuneration as soon as possible. In the past these people had to wait for up to five months before receiving their increases.

According to a letter that appeared in today’s edition of Die Burger, there are other nurses who have the same problem. The letter is headed “Kyk dringend na verpleegsters se geld”. I see the hon the Minister replied to this in the newspaper. Part of the hon the Minister’s reply reads as follows:

Al hierdie aksies vind volgens ’n prosedure plaas wat tyd in beslag neem.

In the meantime food prices have increased, the price of clothes has gone up and transport has become more expensive as a result of the increase in the petrol price. These nurses also have to live. Can an unhappy person do his best? I trust the hon the Minister will give serious attention to this matter.

I was also concerned about a report that appeared in Die Burger of 12 April 1989 under the heading: “Druk wynsurplus in ’n bierblik, sê boere”. I should like to quote the last paragraph. It reads:

“Ons probeer wyn in ’n Derde Wêreld-situasie bemark met Eerste Wêreld-regulasies. Ons moet met ’n tenkwa in Soweto kan rondry en soos met ’n petrolpomp wyn by die liter verkoop,” het ’n bekende wynboer gesê.

We must dissociate ourselves completely from this idea. If this should happen, shebeens would flourish, children would buy wine on the streets and crime would increase. We already have an enormous problem in respect of alcoholics. Where liquor is sold, especially on the street as is envisaged, and in shebeens, drugs are sold too. This ridiculous idea of selling wine on the streets must be rejected out of hand. It will merely lead to alcohol and drug addiction.

South Africa has one of the best health services in the world. This achievement is hampered, however, by apartheid in health services. With the new health plan it appears that the Department of National Health and Population Development has got stuck on a policy of separation in health services as is propagated and implemented by the CP.

There is so much talk about reform, but still there is discrimination in the sphere of health. How cost effective is apartheid in health services? The answer to this can be found in this morning’s edition of Die Burger under the heading, “Louw maan oor dubbele dienste”. The report reads:

Kommer oor die ekonomiese duplisering van dienste weens die beleid van eie sake en algemene sake onder een provinsiale gesag, is gisteraand op George deur die Administrateur van Kaapland, mnr Gene Louw, uitgespreek. Dit kan selfs geloofwaardigheid ter sprake bring.
Vanuit ’n oogpunt oor kostedoeltreffendheid het hy vraagtekens. Vanuit ’n bestuursoog-punt is duplikasie van funksieverrigtinge ’n bedreiging. Daar is oop hospitale en daar is eiesake-hospitale.

Duplication of services wastes a great deal of money and manpower. The new health plan may be presented as a new dispensation, but it is definitely not a better dispensation. Under this new health plan the House of Assembly has already decided how many and which hospitals will fall under own affairs in the House of Assembly. Apartheid in provincial and State hospitals will continue to exist. People of colour will still be refused treatment at these hospitals simply because their skins are not white.

Is the apartheid ideology worth more to doctors than the oath they have taken? It is a disgrace that dying people of colour are still kicked around in this way. What happens in doctors’ surgeries, especially in the rural areas? What do we find? There are separate waiting rooms— sometimes people of colour have to wait outside—and separate consulting rooms. Some doctors take this even further and have separate stethoscopes and instruments for the different race groups. The Whites are assisted first, whereas people of colour have to wait patiently.

I know what this means. Our people are made aware of this discrimination every day. This kind of discrimination is a blot on the name of the medical profession and on South Africa. Such racist conduct cannot be tolerated. There are still some doctors who treat our people badly. In this connection I want to quote from a letter that appeared in Rapport on 8 April under the heading “Liewers tandpyn as die dokter”. The letter comes from Keimoes, and it reads:

Net ’n kort brief om u mee te deel van die behandeling wat ons hier ontvang.
Gister neem ek my pa dokter toe om ’n tand—sy enigste wat nog oor was—te laat trek. Net voor hom was nog ’n seun met dieselfde probleem wat ook soortgelyke behandeling ontvang het.
Die verpleegster wat daar aan diens was, het ons nog meegedeel dat die koste—R5—alles dek, soos byvoorbeeld die inspuiting en so meer.
Groot was my teleurstelling toe die dokter die tand net so uitpluk, sonder enige medikasie. My pa het my toe ook vertel dat dit die tweede keer was dat sy tande op dieselfde manier verwyder is.
Agterna kom die dokter uit en deel ons mee dat hy “tande so trek omdat die spuit dit meer laat pyn en die mond laat swel”.

I am not going to quote any further from this letter. I want to say, however, that things cannot continue in this way. People cannot be treated like horses.

I also want to refer to what happened to a body in Uniondale, and in this connection I want to quote from Rapport of 1 April 1989, as follows:

Wyle mnr Tangol wat ’n teringlyer was, het op 20 Maart weens hartversaking gesterf. Van die hospitaal is sy stoflike oorskot na die lykhuis gebring.
Volgens mev De Bruin, is hulle met hul aankoms op Uniondale dadelik na die hospitaal. Daarvandaan is hulle na die lykhuis waar ’n werker vir hulle die deur oopgesluit het.
“Die volgende oomblik het ons geskok te-ruggedeins,” se sy, “toe ons byna oorweldig is deur die nare reuk van ’n ontbinde lyk. Spraakloos het die vraag by my opgekom: Hoe kan so iets met my broer gebeur; hy verdien dit mos nie! Die antwoord het ons gekry toe die man wat die deur oopgesluit het in ’n sagte stem se: ‘Die kamer was nooit aangeskakel nie, en die lyk was vyf dae daarin.’ By ’n suster in die hospitaal het ek gaan verneem of daar dan nie behoorlike toesig oor sulke dinge gehou word nie. Niemand wou iets se nie, en ons moes met ’n skouerophaal tevrede wees.”

These people did not even receive a word of apology. Why must people be treated in this way? The disease of racism in our health services must be treated and must be eradicated. This is not the first time this has happened, especially with regard to the Coloured section of our population. These people must change their attitude and must treat everyone courteously.

I now want to come to tuberculosis. It appears from the annual report that 20% of tuberculosis cases do not complete their treatment. This is cause for concern and I agree with the annual report that this begs the question as to whether tuberculosis sufferers receive effective health education and motivation. It is also disappointing that the number of tuberculosis cases cured and discharged dropped from 78% in 1985 to 74% in 1987.

We must declare war against tuberculosis, especially in the Western Cape. It was shocking to hear in a television report on Saturday that according to Santa, there had been 4 000 deaths as a result of tuberculosis in 1988 and that the same number of deaths is expected this year.

I now come to family planning. I quote from page 22 of the annual report:

In view of programme progress during the last three years, there is an obvious increase in the difference between the objective and actual achievement.

When we look at the graph, there was a reduction in the number of women protected between April 1986 and February 1987. Seen as a whole, it appears that the actual number of women protected did not increase much between 1985 and 1988.

It is pleasing that the Human Sciences Research Council is doing research on behalf of the family planning programme at present and that one of the target groups is the advisors, because it appears that the problem lies with the advisors. We have family planning advisers at the clinic in Malmesbury. These people go into the community, but they do not do what they are paid to do. They do not go there to give advice with regard to family planning, but to canvass votes for the Official Opposition in the parliamentary election, and to denigrate the MPs and management committee members of the area.

For that reason the hon the Minister will have to ensure that these advisors do their work properly so that we do not have a constantly growing gap between the actual situation and the objective.

*The CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE:

Order! If the hon member for Northern Cape wants to make a speech—I see his name is not on the speakers’ list—he is welcome to do so. He must not waste all his energy at this early stage, however. The hon member for Langlaagte may proceed.

*Dr J J VILONEL:

Mr Chairman, after the debates in the Main Chamber, where one actually feels left out in the cold standing alone in front making one’s speech, one feels a bit warmer here, or as the English say, a bit more cosy. We are sitting a bit closer together.

For that reason I really do not feel like making a speech this afternoon; I think we should simply talk. [Interjections.] When one only has ten minutes at one’s disposal in a debate like this, one has one of two options. One can choose a subject and discuss it in detail, or one can do what the hon member for Swartland has just done—this is also my option—namely to place a number of matters on the table and then leave them open for discussion. I have also opted for this so-called potpourri approach.

I want to tell the hon member for Swartland, who spoke about discrimination by doctors and discrimination in medical services, in plain Afrikaans that discrimination by doctors is not the done thing. It is unethical; it does not apply in his profession. When a doctor therefore behaves in a discriminatory fashion, he is being unethical. A doctor treats any patient equally well, whether it is his father, brother, an opponent or a terrorist. A doctor does his very best for every patient. Of course there are clergymen who steal, and so there may be doctors who behave unethically, but it is not the done thing.

The first topic in this potpourri I want to place on the table is the alarming rise in the cost of medical services. This is something which is not only increasing in total, but also per capita. I think I can say it is getting out of hand. Many reasons can be advanced for the rising cost of medical services. We know it is a worldwide problem. We know for example that Mrs Margaret Thatcher is now the chairman of a committee which is investigating this matter thoroughly. We know the increases are mainly due to the escalation in the cost of medicines, specialised curative services, the more sophisticated needs of patients who are requiring an increasing number of services and the increase in the extent of the use of these services. I think the cost of medicine is the main factor in this connection, but of course it is not the only factor.

In 1987 the total expenditure of medical funds was 16,3% for general practitioners, 17,7% for specialists, 11,7% for dentists and related services, 21,2% for hospitalisation, 5% for spectacles, etc and 26,9% for medicine. These figures indicate that the cost of medicine is a very important factor. However, I am not going to devote my time to this; I am merely placing it on the table it as it were and saying that whatever other reasons there may be, this remains a fact and an aspect to which we will have to give very urgent attention.

This brings me to the second topic in this potpourri. I have said this before, but I want to repeat it. South Africa can be described as having a First World and a Third World component, with a ratio of 25:75. This Third World component is increasing tremendously owing to the population explosion. The great obligation of the State is, in fact, towards that part of the population. We can therefore say without any doubt that in respect of those services there will be a dramatic increase in the demand for money for those people. This drama can very easily turn into a tragedy. I therefore want to say that we must spend a far larger percentage of the Budget on health services, education and housing. If we do not succeed with health services, education and housing—I think the hon the Deputy Minister may possibly refer to this later—we will not succeed with the population development programme.

If we do not succeed with the population development programme we will become a banana republic and we will all be monkeys in that republic together. There is no way, with or without apartheid, in which one or other of the groups will not share in that banana republic. We are spending 4,8% of our gross national product on health services. If we include the TBVC countries and the self-governing states, it comes to 5,24%. The World Health Organisation has said that the objective must be to be spending 5% by the year 2000, and we have already passed that figure. However, this is still not enough and I shall conclude this point with the single remark that it has been said that there is only one cake and that that cake must be divided, but if one cannot make the cake bigger one must take a larger segment of the cake for health services, education and housing. It is as simple as that. If we cannot build roads, it will not kill us, but if we do not have health services, education and housing, it will kill us. Housing is very important— the hon member for Swartland also raised this point—when it comes to the problem of tuberculosis.

There is a fourth matter I want to raise. I shall do so before I touch on the third matter I want to raise, in case time catches up with me. Environmental conservation and nature conservation are becoming increasingly important throughout the world, including South Africa. As soon as one talks about environmental and nature conservation, pollution or anti-pollution—therefore the control of pollution—are immediately at issue. When it comes to pollution, atmospheric pollution is receiving a great deal of attention. We know that the RSA is the first country and, as far as I know, the only country in Africa to approve the Montreal Protocol in connection with the acute ozone problem, and will be signing it in the near future.

However, I want to ask three questions in this regard. Where do we stand in South Africa as regards this rather emotional but nevertheless extremely important topic, namely the question of pollution and what is associated with it? Secondly, what about smoking? What are we going to do about smoking? Are we going to prohibit it or not? Where do we stand in this regard?

*Mr J C OOSTHUIZEN:

What smoking? [Interjections.]

*Dr J J VILONEL:

Everyone would be against the lorry to which an hon member referred which travels around in Soweto selling liquor, because they know how damaging this is. However, not everyone is opposed to smoking, because they only discover the serious consequences of this when they get cancer. [Interjections.] I see the hon Whip is not very impressed by my argument against smoking. I suppose he is not impressed by it because he feels guilty. [Interjections.]

The third question I want to ask in connection with smoking and tobacco concerns the fact that, according to my information, there is no excise duty on snuff tobacco, although it does just as much harm. The association which is informing the population on the adverse effects of smoking and tobacco is experiencing a dire shortage of finances. Can we not levy an excise duty on snuff tobacco to help to compensate for the financial position in which that association finds itself?

The last matter I want to raise in the few minutes remaining at my disposal is the unfortunate and detrimental “quarrel” between—if I must generalise— the pharmacists and the hon the Minister and his department. I say “unfortunate” and “detrimental” because it is unfortunate and detrimental to the pharmacists. It is unfortunate and detrimental to the department and the hon the Minister, it is unfortunate and detrimental to the country and it is, to be more specific, unfortunate and detrimental to the patients and the people of this country. I am not going to go into particulars regarding how much is right and how much is wrong. [Time expired.]

Mr T PALAN:

Mr Chairman, the question concerning the recognition of the overseas trained doctors, mainly those trained in India and Pakistan, has been the focus of attention in the House of Delegates for the past four years. Once again I am constrained to bring this matter to the fore because of the double standards being practised by the South African Medical and Dental Council, which is an autonomous body. I bring this topic up in this Chamber because this Government has representation on the South African Medical and Dental Council, and therefore should do something about bringing about some sanity regarding these overseas trained doctors.

There are many areas which require medical practitioners to alleviate the problems at many provincial hospitals. What is amazing is that there are certain areas where doctors can practise in hospitals while they are not permitted to practise as medical practitioners in the Natal Provincial Hospital or other provincial hospitals.

I say this because a Dr Govender applied for a position for which there was a vacancy at the Stanger Hospital and his application was not accepted because the South African Medical and Dental Council would not confirm such an appointment. However, the same doctor is employed on a full-time basis by the KwaZulu Government and has taken up a post in QwaQwa. If this is not double standards, what is it then? Professional bodies such as the South African Medical and Dental Council should desist from engaging in this type of double standard.

I believe there is a shortage of doctors in our provincial hospitals and therefore the South African Medical and Dental Council should be prevailed upon to co-operate and make it possible for these overseas trained doctors to practise at these hospitals.

A typical example is this article by the MEC of the Natal Provincial Council where he says the following:

The Natal Provincial Administration is launching a drive to recruit doctors from Europe at a time when at least 300 doctors from India are without jobs. The shock announcement by Mr Val Volker, MEC, that the NPA would attract European doctors to fill vacant hospital posts in the province has angered OMEGA, the organisation which has been fighting for the full recognition of the Indian medical graduates.
A spokesman for OMEGA, …, slammed the move as being racist and discriminatory, and all the more abhorrent because there are qualified doctors who could not practise their profession merely because of the authorities’ double standards.

This is most disgusting. Further, these overseas trained doctors are doctors who are efficient, proficient and in this respect many hospitals in the province are being run by these overseas trained doctors. A clear example of this is the large hospital in Natal, the R K Khan Hospital, which has a superintendent, Dr P K Naidoo, who was trained in India, and in Northdale we have Dr Dwarika Persadh who was also trained in India. In Clairwood Hospital the superintendent, Dr Narsing, was also trained in India. If these people are proficient to run these hospitals, I cannot understand why the South African Medical and Dental Council could not allow the Indian doctors to train and practise in our areas.

By representation of the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in the House of Delegates certain concessions were made by the South African Medical and Dental Council, but not to the entire satisfaction of those trained in India and Pakistan. They were allowed to attempt to write the examination twice only in some instances. I see they have now retracted that and the examination for registration may be written more often than twice.

Then again it goes on to say, and I quote the letter from the SAMDC—

… should a person pass the examination (ELR), he could immediately sit for an examination, called the Examination for Full Registration (EFR), which could be clinical and/or oral and/or written and of the same standard as the final examination for medical students, at a university in the Republic of South Africa. If he is successful, unlimited registration is granted. A candidate may attempt the examination on two occasions only …

This is too prescriptive for all the training that the doctors have gone through and it has also been established that—again I read from this article:

There have been instances where only 2 out of 160 graduates writing the examination have passed and this has been the general trend for many years.

That is particularly when it comes to these doctors trained in Eastern countries and it has been proved by the feedback. In fact the feedback from the rural South African hospitals has been that doctors trained in India perform far better than those trained in Europe, because they have trained in conditions similar to those in these areas. They trained in Third World country hospitals and similar situations obtained in various provincial hospitals in South Africa. Therefore they are best suited or at least very well suited to these conditions.

The hon the Minister said in a debate a few years ago in the House of Delegates that a deputation or delegation should go from this Government to India, if the SAMDC is so sceptical about the standard of education and training in India, to ensure that the tuition given in that country is acceptable to the standards and norms of the SAMDC. By merely stating that they are not suitable, because our trade relationship with India is not cordial and in fact non-existent, is uncalled for. I therefore ask the hon the Minister to look into this matter more seriously.

Next I go on to an important aspect about the population development which has been amply mentioned in this annual report of the Department of National Health and Population Development. South Africa faces a struggle for survival because of its far too rapid population growth. It is said that a baby is born every 26 seconds in South Africa. [Interjections.] I hear somebody ask “why”. However, the growth rate for South Africa’s total population, and I quote from this book, exhibits a dangerously high trend at 2,3% per annum. Should this growth rate continue our present population of 28,5 million will increase to almost three times that figure in less than 35 years. By the year 2040 the total population could increase to an unmanageable 138 million people. Therefore health education is of paramount importance and should encompass such educational actions regarding promotive, preventative, curative and rehabilitative measures. In this respect I urge the department to concentrate its educational activities mainly in the rural areas where some people live in Third World conditions and consequently literacy is at its lowest level.

However, I must compliment the department on its population development programme. The primary goal of this programme … [Time expired.]

*Dr W J SNYMAN:

Mr Chairman, people are very concerned or perturbed about maintaining the high-quality medical care and training which has been a conspicuous characteristic in the medical field in South Africa for many years. According to public statements by the Government, such as those made during the recent extended provincial committees, the unfavourable conditions, as a result of the critical financial situation in the country as a whole, are not likely to improve in the future either. The tawdry way in which the fuel price crisis was dealt with is the most recent example of the critical financial position into which the Government has plunged this country.

However, permit me to mention an example in the field of health. For example, in his speech on 4 April the Administrator of the Transvaal said the following, inter alia:

Although there is an increase of 5,05% in the provision in respect of Hospital Services (Vote 4) when draft estimates are compared with revised estimates, it is still approximately R240 million less than the amount required to meet the needs in all services.

He then made the following categoric statements in respect of underprovision of hospital services in the estimates:

It will not be possible to replace obsolete, expensive equipment.
No new sophisticated equipment required for specialised treatment can be purchased.
The non-provision of equipment and the consequent suspension of services is a retrogressive step with far-reaching consequences.
Backlogs are accumulated—particularly with regard to community health services.

This relates directly to a memorandum which appeared in the South African Medical Journal of 4 March in which the Akademiese Geneeskun-dige Personeelvereniging of the Tygerberg Hospital published a memorandum. Allow me to quote just one paragraph from this memorandum:

*Ongunstige omstandighede’ word gedefinieer vir die doel van die memorandum as subopti-male werks-en akademiese omstandighede soos ervaar deur die voltydse geneesheer.
Die standaard van geneeskundige dienste in Suid-Afrika word bepaal deur die opgeleide mannekrag wat universiteite en akademiese hospitale lewer. Indien die huidige, toene-mend ongunstige toestande mediese opleiding aan akademiese hospitale nadelig beïnvloed, sal die standaard van die gesondheidsdiens in die land dienooreenkomstig verswak.

Then a plea is made for these academic hospitals to be run and financed in a different way to provincial hospitals and other Government hospitals in order to overcome this problem. This will be the responsibility of the hon the Minister who is present here this afternoon, and I should like to hear what he intends doing to overcome this serious problem.

Next I want to focus attention on an organisation such as the National Medical and Dental Association, NAMDA, which also specifically focuses its activities on the political situation in South Africa. I should like to hear from the new DP spokesman on health what his party’s standpoint is with regard to this association. In a special bulletin put out by this organisation the objectives were spelt out as follows:

NAMDA believes that a policy of selective support can create incentives to academics to oppose apartheid more actively. It can also assure access to ideas and research that promote democratic change.
It is proposed that NAMDA will use the guidelines specified at the end of the paper in deciding which academic exchanges to support.

What are these guidelines? Mention is even made in this document of a movement similar in name to the new party. I quote:

NAMDA has accepted aims and principles that are in accordance with those which inspired the national democratic (progressive) movement in South Africa.

This afternoon they therefore owe it to Parliament and to the voters to tell us exactly where they stand with this organisation. There is not enough time to mention all the guidelines of this organisation and what it expects from academics and from medical practitioners, so I shall therefore quote only the following:

Individuals from abroad should be willing to:
Make a public statement on any platform available to them … indicating their opposition to apartheid … and … refuse to be interviewed for or appear on SABC radio or TV.

In my opinion the new party must clarify its standpoint with regard to this organisation.

I now want to deal with a matter which is a source of great concern and unhappiness to our voters out there, and that is the degree of integration that is being accepted surreptitiously and perceptibly to an increasing extent at every level of health care here in South Africa. The violent reaction this elicited from the hon member for Parktown in the discussion of the Extended Provincial Committee on the Transvaal’s budget when he said that he was ashamed of me, accused me of contravening the most elementary medical ethics and furthermore wanted to apologise to the other population groups on my behalf, is a typical reaction which I could have expected from the hon member. I am sorry he is not present here this afternoon, because I know exactly where I stand with him. We understand each other and he knows where he stands with me.

However, when the MEC entrusted with hospital services said the following, it left me speechless with surprise:

I should very much have liked to reply to the hon member for Pietersburg, but time does not allow me to do so. However, I think the hon member for Parktown launched an effective attack on his medical ethics.

I then asked him whether he agreed with the hon member, to which the MEC replied that he did agree with the hon member and that he had done so with tact. I want to congratulate the hon member this afternoon in his absence. He has won. Now I want to ask the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development whether what the MEC of the Transvaal stated is now official NP policy. This is one of the crucial questions in the coming election. The NP must tell us this afternoon whether their appointed MEC in the Transvaal gave the correct interpretation of their policy or they must repudiate him. If not, they must accept the consequences of the abolition of all discriminatory or differentiating measures and openly tell the voters that all health facilities are open to everyone. Then we would know where we stood with each other. I hope the hon the Minister will clarify this matter.

The policy of the CP is crystal clear. As far as we are concerned, health services, like education and residential areas, are primarily an own affair which is the primary responsibility of every people in its own area of jurisdiction. There are Black peoples— the hospital at Tsilenzini is an example—who do not want to be accommodated in the same hospital with other Black peoples. [Interjections.] In addition some of the hon member’s people object if they have to share the same hospital accommodation with other groups in my part of the world. [Interjections.] If the Government tells us we are a unified State with equal rights of citizenship for all in that State, then the statement by the hon member for Parktown is quite correct and fair. Then they must not say there are different hospitals or wards for the various population groups. Then they are playing a deadly game out there in the middle of the road and they are going to get run over.

I now want to deal with pensions and talk specifically about the civil pensions of public servants. I want to ask a question about the concession to approximately 6 500 public servants whose applications for buying back pension in terms of the old formula were submitted before 21 September 1987. According to Dr A D Wassenaar this concession will cost approximately R1 billion. I should like to hear the hon the Minister’s comments on this. According to the Director-General in an article in Finansies en Tegniek of 10 March, the Cabinet was requested to reach a decision on the matter. I quote from the article:

As hulle in beginsel inwillig dat die mense gehelp kan word, dan ontstaan die vraag wie daarvoor gaan betaal. Ons wag nou vir die Kabinet se antwoord, se dr Slabbert.

I should like to hear whether that decision has already been made and what the situation is.

I should also like to know what the situation is with regard to the pensions of widows of public servants. For many years people have been asking for it to be more than 50% of the deceased spouse’s pension.

Finally I want to ask the hon the Minister about an unequal and unfair situation which, in my opinion, has arisen in respect of officials of the former Fisheries Development Corporation which was transferred to the Department of Environment Affairs in 1986.

In some cases large amounts were paid out to members, and in other cases shortages had to be absorbed by the Public Service Pension Fund. Firstly I want to ask the hon the Minister what the overall loss to the Public Service Pension Fund was as a result of the take-over of the FDC Pension Fund, and secondly why a uniform formula was not used to adjust the position of officials affected by this? It is really difficult to understand why some former officials received no cash pay-outs, while others, for example, received amounts of R46 000, R60 000 or even as much as R96 000 in surplus cash pay-outs. It would appear that there was an unfair manipulation of the assets of members of the FDC Pension Fund, before the transfer of the assets to the Public Service Pension Fund. I should like to ascertain from the hon the Minister whether he envisages any remedial measures in this regard. We should also like to hear a reply from the hon the Minister in this regard this afternoon.

Finally I want to refer to the whole question of the registration of medicine. We know the Medicines Control Council had a large backlog and firms are complaining that they have to wait a very long time to have medicines registered. Then there are also cases of medicine advertisements—in this case, in an information document for the Zulu population—in which various claims are made in respect of the effect of the medicines. [Time expired.]

*Mr W J MEYER:

Mr Chairman, thank you very much for this opportunity. I want to begin by reminding the hon member for Pietersburg of something which a former teacher always told me. He never told me who the author of these words was. His words to me were:

Words are like leaves, and where they much abound
Good food of sense, beneath are really found.

I am very sorry to hear that the CP is going to use the health of not only my people, but also of the population of South Africa, as an election gimmick. They should be ashamed of themselves. They want our sons and daughters to protect themselves in the streets or in trenches and then they come here with stories like that. It is proof of what they really think of our people. However, I do not want to stop here. I want to go further by saying: It surprises me.

In a debate on health services last year I said that the private sector should also pull its weight with regard to health services in the country. I have never changed my opinion and still believe that the private sector must lend assistance with regard to health services in South Africa.

Doctors’ fees should be drastically decreased. The price of medicines should be drastically decreased. I want to recommend that legislation be introduced which will provide for the decrease in the price of medicine by 25% and for the freezing of the price of medicine until such time as the economy of the country can afford it. I repeat that it should be done by means of legislation.

A further point of contention is that people who belong to medical aid schemes are admitted to private wards too easily, before it is established whether or not they can pay the additional costs. The hon the Minister must investigate these matters. I mentioned it on a previous occasion, and there were some doctors who did not agree with me. I am speaking from experience of these matters.

A patient should be admitted to a private ward at his own request. If there are no beds available in general wards, it must first be established whether or not a patient can afford to be transferred to a private ward. If a patient is ill in bed and must make a decision, he will simply say “yes, Doctor”, because the doctor is the person to whom he entrusts his life.

I know that there are many private hospitals today. I also know that the facilities in private hospitals are more modern than in other hospitals. The service in private hospitals is perhaps also better as a result of the more sophisticated material and equipment which is used there. I am not opposed to private hospitals at all, but is it not time that someone says what I am saying here now?

Our health services should be everyone’s affair. Health services should never be an own affair, because health services should, in my opinion, be placed in one basket. The country can simply no longer afford three Ministers of Health and three Departments of Health. I can continue in this way up to the last Vote for own affairs health. Life has finally become too expensive for us, and because it has become too expensive for us, we must look at where we stand. We will have to swallow our pride and look at the nitty gritty of the whole matter.

It must also be remembered that own affairs are not our own affairs. We do not even have hospitals which belong to us. Therefore this actually makes nonsense of the term “own affairs”. I am glad to see that people from other population groups are widely used in certain hospitals. I am just sorry that the hon member for Pietersburg is not happy with that. Who knows, perhaps someone from another population group will still nurse him as well one day. One must count one’s words. One’s tongue wags; it is not made of bone. One must be careful about what one says, where one says it and how one says it.

I want to go further by saying that we welcome the fact that people from other population groups are being allowed to help nurse the people of South Africa in so-called exclusive White hospitals, because they are, whether we want to accept it or not, flesh of our flesh and blood of our blood. Where does the surname “Meyer” come from? It did not fall out of the sky.

Hon members who are sitting here today, must know that pain and illness know no colour. Whites get tuberculosis, colds and all kinds of diseases and for that reason one must be careful about what one says.

I want to dwell on a very important matter today, namely the question of PDP— the population development programme, as we know it. When the population development programme was announced just over five years ago, it was welcomed in all quarters. [Interjections.] Support for it was announced from across most of the spectrum of South African society. It was announced that within five years we would see that the programme would have a good effect on our people, and we are seeing it already. Those were not just words, because a few weeks ago we heard that the population growth rate had indeed decreased.

However, I once again want to emphasise the merits of the PDP, which is basically a survival plan. It is essential that provision is made for a decrease in the population growth rate of South Africa in order to achieve a balance between the growth rate and the available vital resources. Such a balance holds advantages for all of us. We all know that we in this country will have better lives if the population growth rate were lower. Although it is said that one should not interfere with what a man does in his bedroom, I feel that one should not eat certain food if one sees that it does not agree with one.

The degree to which the population development programme is going to be successful, will depend on the local community where the work is done. Actually, it rests with the community to see to the children, the ill, the aged, the housing needs, the education institutions, in fact everything which improves the quality of life. We must look at this situation urgently.

The clever people tell us daily that if we do not curtail our population growth rate, our country will quite simply not be able to meet our needs. It has even been mentioned that South Africa’s limited resources will be able to support a maximum population of 80 million. With a population growth of three children per family in all groups, the population will reach 450 million by the 22nd century and continue to grow. It is therefore of the utmost importance that we control our population growth rate.

Statistics show that the increasing urbanisation of Black and Coloured people, whose population growth rate is traditionally higher than that of the Whites, has resulted in a levelling off of the growth rate. However, in rural areas the birth rate is still much higher because these areas do not have the facilities which the cities have. If one has nothing to do in the evening, one simply goes to bed.

In 1982, the increase in the White population was 2,08% as opposed to 3,4% of the Coloured people, 2,7% of the Indians and 5,2% of the Black people. It is therefore in the rural areas that the message must be clearest, namely that families must be limited to a more practical size. Our people must remember that children cost money. It costs money to send children to school, it costs money to send them to university. It costs money to see to their education, and if one is unable to do that for the child, one is doing him an injustice.

I want to go further. A small family is a happy family. A happy family experiences prosperity. Prosperity permeates the community, and a prosperous community means a prosperous country. Is that not what everyone must strive for with regard to the new South Africa?

I want to raise another idea—and hon members on both sides of the House are probably going to bite my head off. Unfortunately someone has to say what I am going to say now. It is something which can be thought about and joked about, even if this is only done to test reaction. Hon members know that I am fond of eliciting reactions.

As a child I once read a little piece out of Ripley’s Believe it or not, which appeared regularly in a Sunday newspaper many years ago. In the article it was said that if the population of Red China had to walk through a gate of a certain width—I can no longer remember the precise measurements—it would take a long time before they had all gone through. Not that one thinks this will ever apply to South Africa. I now want to put the following question, and that is just a thought which I would like to leave with the Government for them to ruminate on. What is the possibility of encouraging the male members of our population—I am talking about all races—to consider sterilisation if, for example, they have already fathered four children and/or reached a certain age? [Interjections.] This incentive must be offered in the form of a cash sum. After all, it is then a democratic choice which is being given. Exercising this would in no way be compulsory, but such an operation should not cost the man anything. [Interjections.]

*The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr G J Malherbe):

Order! Hon members must give the hon member for Robertson a chance to explain his philosophy.

*Mr W J MEYER:

If we want to find solutions to the problems of South Africa—I said at the beginning that illness and pain knew no colour— I feel that these problems are not only our problems; they are everyone’s problems. For that reason I still believe that this is a possibility. It is definitely not the desirable one, because the choice of how many children one wants and how many one can afford …

*Mr J DOUW:

Mr Chairman, may I ask what the hon member’s opinion is with regard to the restriction on bamboo juice? [Interjections.]

*Mr W J MEYER:

Mr Chairman, I do not want to bring up that story here. If the hon members who are sitting here knew what bamboo juice was, they would open factories. [Interjections.] I would rather not mention that topic here. I will talk to the hon member privately about it.

It is a possibility, although it is not the desirable one. The number of children one wants, or can afford, is one’s own affair. However, in this regard I also have a word to say. The realisation will have to dawn on all of us that our population growth rate will have to decrease. We will definitely have to pay urgent attention to this matter. If people in my constituency who have many children come to visit me and I am in my office, I say: “Brother, can you afford all these children?” If they say no, then I say: “Well, then you should not have so many children; then you will have to make a plan … [Time expired.]

*Dr P J C NEL:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to speak after the hon member for Robertson. His appeal reminded me of a sticker I saw recently which said: “Population explosion is everybody’s baby”. I merely want to tell the hon member for Swartland that according to the old Afrikaans saying, one cannot always believe what a dentist (tandetrekker) says. [Interjections.]

Although the Republic of South Africa has increased medical costs, financial deficits and a shortage of medical and nursing staff to contend with, and there is an increasing demand for medical and health services, one can boast of the fact that South Africa’s health services compare favourably with those of comparable countries in the world today, and continue to attempt to compare with the best in the world. I have no doubt that that objective will soon be achieved under the leadership of our hon Minister and Deputy Minister.

One of the most significant problems in the rendering of health services, however, is definitely the shortage of medical staff. That is a fundamental problem that we have come to know very well in my constituency since last year. For the greater part of last year, two general practitioners had to do the work of 15 doctors in the provincial hospital at Welkom. I should like to pay tribute to those two doctors today. Mercifully the Defence Force helped out from time to time, for which we are very grateful. Every time we asked the Defence Force for assistance, however, we were told that the intake of general practitioners was very limited and there were barely enough young doctors in the Defence Force to fill their key posts. Assistance to our training hospital in Universitas in the Free State was also supplied on an irregular basis, since they also had a shortage of general practitioners and medical officers.

The Director of Health Services in the Free State informed me that only 19 of the 48 posts for general practitioners at the training hospital of Universitas were filled this year, despite the fact that 77 doctors completed their studies at the University of the Orange Free State last year. Apparently many of them are working in the Transvaal and the Cape training hospitals. What is the reason for this? The training hospitals that fall under the University of the Witwatersrand supply approximately 200 doctors annually, but they are experiencing a shortage of almost 100 doctors at the moment. What becomes of all these well-qualified doctors of whom we are justifiably proud?

Large numbers of them leave us the day they qualify and these numbers are increasing. That worries me. These doctors are nothing but robbers. Apart from the fact that they are evading their civil duty in a heinous way, they are robbing the taxpayers of their money and the privilege of being treated by them. If one takes into account that the estimated costs of an undergraduate medical student’s training amounts to R36 000, and that the Government contributes R40 000, and that in 1987 alone 93 doctors left the country, there is a loss of almost R7,068 million per annum. One wonders whether we can afford that financially and otherwise. Has the time not come to take steps to curb this trend? Can doctors who are trained in the country at great expense not be compelled to repay the money it costs the Government to train them before they are permitted to register and to emigrate, even before they have completed their military service?

I should like to quote what Dr Kay said at his inauguration as President of the Medical Association of South Africa last year. I quote from the Business Times of 10 June which reported as follows:

Referring to the “distressing” loss of well-qualified doctors through emigration, Dr Kay said Russian doctors had to compensate for monies spent on their training before they were allowed to emigrate. It would be better if that was done in South Africa.
“South Africa has no such barriers and graduates are free to leave and care for the sick in other countries.”
Kay stressed that the shortage of doctors in strategic areas needed to be corrected urgently.
He suggested that new doctors be made to do two years compulsory service in those areas.

I welcome this morning’s announcement by the South African Medical Council on Radio South Africa that the council envisages a system of a period of compulsory national community service for all doctors who complete their studies before they can register with the council. This means that all male and female doctors of all population groups may have to do some form of community service for a specific period in future before they will be permitted to practise or to emigrate. That sounds like a reasonably fair deal to me.

Another problem in the rendering of health services is the shortage of nursing staff. I want to address only one aspect briefly today, and that is the freezing of posts in the profession, which causes a staff standstill and obstructs and delays the filling of posts in the rural areas in particular. I realise that this provision does not apply to uniform staff or to the teaching profession, and we are exceptionally grateful for that. I want to appeal today, however, for the same concession for the nursing profession which undoubtedly makes up the backbone of our health services.

I should like to devote the last part of my speech to occupational health in South Africa. The health and security of our country’s work force is of the utmost importance for the well-being of our country. Our whole economic system depends on that, and as a result, so does the continued existence of our country and its people. The fewer workers become ill and are injured, the better for the country and the more efficiently and economically the employer can run his operation. His benefits can then be ploughed back to the employees.

In the Republic six million people are active in the formal sector at present and approximately two million in the informal sector. The formal sector consists of 185 000 employers, including approximately 40 000 factories, whereas there are approximately 900 mines which employ 800 000 workers.

Because such a large group of workers and work places are involved, and it is necessary always to act in the best interests of all the relevant parties, two commissions of inquiry have been appointed during the past few years. The Erasmus Commission investigated occupational health in the Republic whereas the Nieuwenhuyzen Commission addressed the aspect of compensation for occupational diseases. The former commission pointed out inter alia that there was a significant need for a single institution to control and deal with occupational health in the Republic of South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr P T POOVALINGAM:

Mr Chairman, the question of NAMDA was raised and I think I should deal with that particular question. NAMDA was formed shortly after the killing of Steve Biko. Many people today are convinced that Steve Biko was murdered. I am not so sure about that, but certainly he was killed and his killers—I am satisfied—were guilty of culpable homicide. The two doctors who not only did nothing to help Steve Biko, but connived with the killers, are also in my respectful opinion guilty of culpable homicide. Unfortunately, the Medical Association of South Africa was laid back; it did not do anything to castigate the then Minister Jimmy Kruger, it did not do anything to uphold the Hippocratic oath and as a consequence of that there was support for NAMDA and we are paying the price for the murder or the killing of Steve Biko. That is the tragedy of this country and here we still have people who want to continue this ludicrous apartheid which gave rise to that particular situation.

I do not have to support NAMDA neither do I have to oppose it. Mr John Vorster said that he was not a pro-Nazi when he said things in support of Germany. He said that he was anti-British. Anyone who is against apartheid, insofar as he opposes apartheid, has my full support. I do not necessarily support the rest of his policies.

I agree entirely that we must have medical education for all our children. I also agree entirely that the provision of the extension of the Natal Medical School, so that White children are taken care of, must be accelerated because White children are my children too. I am a non-racialist; I do not believe in separate development, I do not believe in the stupidity of apartheid and I not believe in the idiocy of own affairs. God intended all of us, all people, to enjoy good health. That is why, whenever we raise a glass, we say “Gesundheit”. That is an involuntary prayer, “Gesundheit”, wishing the other person good health. When everyone enjoys good health it is good for the community and good for the collectivity. When any person suffers from bad health it is bad for the individual person, bad for his family, bad for the economy of that family, and bad for the economy of the nation. It is also bad for the hon the Minister of Finance because when a worker is ill that hon Minister collects less revenue. It is also bad for the employer and therefore it is bad for everyone in the State.

That is why it is essential that good health be promoted at all costs so that every individual can enjoy not only his own quality of life, but he can contribute towards the quality of life of other people. It follows, therefore, that each of us here has a vested interest in the good health of all the rest of us. It is as simple as that. Unfortunately many of our people do not have that simple common sense. They believe that common sense is so common that they should not possess it. [Interjections.] It follows also that when we come to the question of health, it must be looked at holistically. It cannot be looked at segmentally or compartmentally. That is why this whole concept of own affairs, when it comes to health and health services, is not only stupid; it is utterly idiotic.

I live in Reservoir Hills where I fall under one Minister of Health. My immediate back-door neighbour, who is White, falls under another Minister of Health and in Clairmont—which is less than half a kilometre as the mosquito flies—people fall under a third Minister of Health. Sparks Estate, which is about one and a half kilometres away as the mosquito flies, falls under a fourth Minister of Health.

All of us live in one city which has a city health officer and of course there are two senior health officials in the province of Natal. There are 14 Ministers of health in South Africa. Can there be anything more stupid or squanderous of public money than this kind of duplication? Duplication is actually not the right word but I do not know the word for multiplying something 14 times. More than R20 million per year is wasted just to employ these Ministers of health and their supporting staff. This country is a small country. We have a population of altogether 28,5 million people who will fit into three cities in Europe or two cities in Brazil or India. Yet we have 14 Ministers of health!

The mosquito flying between my house in Sparks Estate and my near neighbour’s house in Clairmont, does not appear to know that the hon the State President has decreed health to be an own affair. I caught a mosquito one day and I decided to talk to the fellow in a nice, polite way. I said to him: “Mr Mosquito, do you not realise that it is against the law to bite me and then to go off and bite my neighbour and my Black friend in Clairmont?” The mosquito is obviously clued up about the latest slang because he said to me: “Los dit! Voertsek! I will bite whoever I like. I do not believe in your stupid apartheid.” The mosquito actually used another word which I cannot repeat in the company of ladies. At any rate, he said: “I do not believe in your stupid apartheid.” This is what the racist system of apartheid is about.

We are constantly told that apartheid is dying. Mr Chairman, normally I do not support euthanasia, but I support euthanasia with all my heart as far as apartheid is concerned. Let us kill off this so-called dying apartheid and give it a decent burial! Actually I will be very happy to buy two wreaths when we kill apartheid.

Apartheid can be diminished. I speak from personal experience. I, together with Paul Sikes, founded a hospital. Originally that hospital was for Indians only but, when I became chairman, with the help of my committee it was made non-racial. It is a completely non-racial hospital and the hon the Minister pays part of the cost of running that hospital although he does not know it. It is a completely non-racial hospital. I am sure he is pleased that we are doing this kind of thing. If he had his own way, he would probably want to move away from this presidential decree of having health as an own affair. I know the hon the Minister. He is a decent man but unfortunately he has to administer an idiotic system. Ways can be found! If the will is there, ways can be found. The hon the Minister must live up to his name and provide the “will” we need.

I want to deal with the high incidence of German measles or rubella as it is also called. Unfortunately inoculation is not provided for by any organ of State and as a result poor people, who cannot afford their own medical attention, do not get their children inoculated. I want to ask the hon the Minister to see to it that every child gets inoculated against rubella in the same way as they are inoculated against other infectious diseases.

Only recently a man—a foreigner—was injured outside Addington Hospital. He was refused medical attention. Fortunately the man did not die. The doctor who refused him medical attention, or any doctor who refuses medical attention on the grounds of race, is a hypocrite. He is not fit to subscribe to the Hippocratic oath. The Medical Association and the Medical and Dental Council should prosecute any such doctor for misconduct because that is a disgrace.

Infant mortality in South Africa is unnecessarily high among our Black population. Fortunately, among Whites it is only seven per thousand. Among Asians the figure is 13,6 per thousand, which is not too bad, but bad enough. Among Coloured people it is 31,6 per thousand, which is a high percentage, and among Black people it is 80 per thousand.

That is terrible. I extracted the figures from replies by the hon the Minister of Home Affairs on 11 March 1988 to a question posed by the hon the Minister for Parktown. The reason for this disparity is simply the terribly low living standards of our Black people and of our platteland Coloured population.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF NATIONAL HEALTH:

They have improved.

Mr P T POOVALINGAM:

They have improved but not sufficiently. The disparity must be completely eradicated. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POPULATION DEVELOPMENT:

Mr Chairman, it is always an inspiration to follow on the hon member for Reservoir Hills.

It is once more my privilege to present to this House some ideas on what I believe to be a most important subject. During the course of my address I will touch on points raised by the hon members for Bayview, the hon member for Robertson and the hon member for Reservoir Hills.

*Hon members are all very much aware of the fact that South and Southern Africa has to contend with a rapid population growth. At present the South African population is increasing at an average rate of 2,3% per annum. In 1985 the HSRC undertook various population projections for the RSA and the self-governing states. It is obvious that if these projections were to come true, the vast population would make tremendous demands on the South African economy in particular and could have far-reaching social and economic consequences for South and Southern Africa.

It is interesting to note that in a recent UN publication World Population Prospects 1988 it is stated clearly that if the present RSA population growth were to continue, South Africa would be the 23rd most densely populated country in the year 2025.

Over the past year we concentrated especially on obtaining the co-operation of as many communities as possible in the RSA in order to achieve the objects of the Population Development Programme. At present population development actions are being launched in 750 communities in the RSA and the rural foundation is working on more than 3 000 farms in the RSA with the necessary support of the department.

I wish to give an exposition of the progress that is being made with the programme. Hon members are aware of the fact that the programme has specific objects that have to be achieved within a certain time limit. The progress that is being made with the programme is monitored by the HSRC annually on the basis of nine indicators. The indicators give an idea, on the one hand, of the demographic position of the population and, on the other hand, of the socio-economic state of the population.

†In order to determine whether or not progress has taken place a comparison is drawn between the indicators in the 1987 report and those in the 1988 report. For analytical purposes I will discuss the statistics of the four population groups separately. I must mention, however, that the 1987 and 1988 reports reflect the statistical situations of 1985 and 1986.

The 1988 report shows that as far as Whites are concerned statistics of five of the nine indicators have improved. The indicators are the total fertility rates or the number of children per woman in her fertile years which have dropped from 2 to 1,8. Children born to teenagers out of wedlock dropped from 7,2% to 7%. The infant mortality rate decreased from 9,3 to 7. Life expectancy at birth has improved form 72,1 years to 72,2 years and the economic dependency rate from 139,5 to 139. In the case of the indicator, literacy, the position is the same as for the previous year, namely 100%.

In comparison with the previous statistics the figures worsened for the following indicators: personal per capita income and room density.

The 1988 report shows that there has been an improvement in the statistics of five of the nine indicators in the case of the Coloured community. These indicators are the total fertility rate which improved from 3,2 to 3,0, teenage births from 15,1% to 14%; the infant mortality rate from 40,7 to 31,6; life expectancy at birth from 61,7 years to 61,9 years; and room density from 135,3% to 135,2%.

A decrease has occurred in the total fertility rate, teenage pregnancies and the infant mortality rate, and an increase has occurred in the life expectancy, these being the indicators of fertility and mortality.

In comparison with previous statistics, there has been a worsening of the following indicators: Economic dependency, personal per capita income, literacy and children not attending school.

The 1988 report further shows that, in the case of the Asian community, compared to the previous statistics, figures for eight of the nine indicators have improved. These indicators are the total fertility rate from 2,5 to 2,4; teenage births from 9,7% to 9,2%; infant mortality rate from 16,1 to 13,6; life expectancy at birth from 67,4 years to 67,6 years; personal per capita income from R248 to R251; children not attending school from 8,2% to 7,4%—an improvement; and room density from 102,6% to 97,9%. The economic dependency rate has improved from 193,7 to 176,5.

Looking at the Black community in South Africa—the self-governing areas excluded—the following clearly shows that there has been an improvement in the figures of the following indicators: Total fertility rate, from 4,2 to 3,9; infant mortality rate shows an improvement from 63 to 62; life expectancy at birth shows an improvement from 58 years to 60 years. Room density has improved from 147,2% to 134,7%. It must, however, be noted that no reliable statistics are available for Blacks with regard to the infant mortality rate and life expectancy at birth. Despite serious attempts by the Government, underregistration of deaths and births still occurs.

Compared to previous statistics, however, figures for five indicators worsened to a large degree. These indicators are teenage births, the economic dependency rate, personal per capita income, literacy and children not attending school.

*The most important conclusion to be drawn from these statistics is that definite progress is being made in respect of the demographic indicators, and that there was a weakening as it were in the non-demographic indicators, especially those indicative of the economic position of individuals. It is certainly a reflection of the difficult economic circumstances in which we find ourselves.

It is very clear that, if we can carry on and even speed up the progress that we have already made in the field of the demographic indicators, we may succeed in controlling the population growth. However, I must point out that it is of the utmost importance for us to achieve better results in the fields of economic and educational indicators.

†Mr Chairman, at this stage I also wish to bring to hon members’ attention the awareness campaign the department has launched. An example of this is the advertisement in the latest issue of The Financial Mail on pages 38 and 39 which has as its headline, and I quote:

One out of three South African adults can’t read their payslip. Teach just three of them to read, and you’ll help write off overpopulation.

Another example is the department’s 26-second advertisement which currently appears on television. These adverts serve not only to make South Africans aware of the problem, but they are also designed to motivate us to become involved in the socio-economic upliftment of our fellow South Africans.

*I am fully aware of the difficult economic situation prevailing in South Africa at present. However, I must express my concern at the fact that if South Africa cannot maintain at least a 5% to 6% economic growth per annum, we shall not succeed in controlling our population growth in the long run.

We are now entering the crucial phase of trying to control the population growth. If, in the following decade, we do not succeed in capitalising on the positive results that we obtained in respect of the demographic indicators, the population growth will be beyond control. In this crucial demographic phase in which South Africa finds itself at present we shall have to account for the following at all times and on all levels: The connection between population growth and economic growth; the connection between economic improvement and political reform; the connection between population growth and political participation.

I wish to point out the demand that rapid population growth will make on education and the economy in particular. The impact which the population growth of especially the Black population will have on education is dramatic. The number of pupils in 1988 was as follows:

Whites

1 089 000

Coloureds

858 000

Asians

256 000

Blacks

5 051 000

Total

7 254 000

Education is already a special priority of the Government. However, it is obvious to me that the present approach to education will simply not be able to accommodate these numbers. The education community will have to make a concerted effort in order to be able to accommodate the unusually large increase in the number of pupils.

†It would appear as if the South African economy has developed an inherent inability to provide sufficient work opportunities for its fast-growing population. This is clearly reflected by the occupational structure of its labour force and the extent of expected structural changes in the composition of the labour force by the end of the century.

In 1985 the total labour force was 11,8 million, of which almost 70% were Blacks. The expected annual growth rate of the economically active population over the next 10 years is estimated at an average of 2,5%. This figure implies an increase of more than 3,25 million potential job-seekers. In theory, therefore, this means that approximately 900 job opportunities would have to be created daily to provide the necessary job opportunities for the rapidly growing population.

It is usually much easier to calculate supply than to determine the demand for work. The availability of job opportunities can also be expressed in terms of the demand for specific skills, that is the occupational structure of the labour force. It is well-known that the various sectors of the national economy grow at varying rates. Each sector has its own occupational structure.

The HSRC Institute for Labour Economics Research identified the estimated demand for work in 1985 and 1995 for different economic sectors and according to them the approximately 9 million job opportunities that will be available by 1995 will not nearly meet the demands of the almost 15 million job-seekers. These figures reflect the limited ability of the formal economy if the the growth rate in the GDP of 2,7%, as estimated by the Central Economic Advisory Service, is maintained.

It is known, and research also indicates, that the potential saving rate of a two-child family is 18,4% of the family’s income and that of a four-child family is 12,2%, while that of a six-child family is only 0,7%. It can be concluded that a rapid increase in population per se has an adverse effect on savings in the sense that total household savings will not increase in proportion to the population growth.

*I emphasise these perspectives so that we may realise the enormity of the problem. I think the statement of the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions in the Transkei, Mr Ka-Tshunungwa, expresses the belief of these countries as well as South Africa as follows:

As one of the developing countries in the world, Transkei accepts the threat of high population growth as one of the main factors constraining socio-economic development.

I further wish to emphasise the seriousness of population development by quoting an article on President Hosni Moebarak of Egypt from Die Volksblad of Thursday, 11 April 1989:

Hy het voor sy vertrek na die hawestad Aqaba gese … die voedselprobleem sal opgelos kan word as mense nie agt, nege of twaalf kinders het nie. In die plaaslike media is berig dat Egipte se bevolking van 54 miljoen met een miljoen elke sewe maande styg. Opposisiekoe-rante berig gereeld van ’n tekort aan meel, mense wat toustaan vir brood en van stygende pryse.

†In conclusion, I would like to express my gratitude to my colleague, the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development, to the Director-General, Dr Slabber, to the Deputy Director-General, Dr Boet Schoeman and to the staff and personnel of the department for their co-operation and efficiency during the past year, which helped to make my task so much easier.

I would also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to a group of men and women, the Council for Population Development, to its chairman, Dr De Lange, and to all its members, for accepting the challenge of being our partners in aiming for these goals and for the excellent work they have done and are doing. One of the successful achievements of this council was the International Conference for Population Development which was held in Johannesburg in October last year.

*South Africa faces a long and difficult road ahead in the demographic field. We can overcome this problem only if all of us join hands to deal with it.

Mr M J ELLIS:

Mr Chairman, I believe it would be appropriate if I began by congratulating my colleague, the hon member for Reservoir Hills, on being appointed the DP spokesman on national health. I also want to endorse what he had to say about the importance of equal health opportunities for all people, as well as his remarks with regard to the idiocy of own affairs health services. We have to accept that the situation is compounded in difficulty, for some health matters are debated in the provincial debates while others are debated in own affairs debates. Furthermore other health matters are being debated here under the Vote on national health. It does seem an extraordinary situation, and we no doubt need to find ways and means as urgently as possible of streamlining health services in South Africa.

I want to move away from matters strictly medical and look at a matter more related to welfare. It is a matter which has become of increasing concern to South Africa in recent years. I am referring to child abuse and the inestimable damage it does to the young minds and bodies of an ever increasing number of young people.

I know the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development may well try to palm this matter off on to his own affairs colleagues since there is very much a move afoot to put child abuse under the control of the various health and welfare departments in each House, and to make it an own affair. There is, too, the step being taken to form a nationwide Childline service under each own affairs department. I certainly welcome the introduction of such a service, but must warn immediately that it must be manned at all times by highly professional people. I also want to stress the fact that it must be co-ordinated amongst all groups and in all centres throughout the country. This coordination is of paramount importance.

However, there is something of greater importance. I want to make a plea to the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development under whose control both mental health and social welfare services fall, to become far more involved in this increasingly worrying factor of our social life here in South Africa, for to label child abuse—or child protection, as it should perhaps more positively be called—as an own affair is totally unacceptable. It is in fact all children of all race groups who are being increasingly subjected to this horrifying social malady.

We have to accept that child abuse cuts right across the racial barriers. One can quote facts and figures at length but in the short time available today I want to stress that all races are affected and I want to quote just two statistics to prove this. Firstly, in the Durban area alone the Childline offices receive eight to ten calls per day, from all race groups, although the majority are from Coloured and White families. Secondly, an investigation carried out by the University of Natal in 1987 showed that in a relatively short space of several years there has been an increase of approximately 80% in abuse cases involving Black children in the homelands. The cause for this rapid increase in child abuse in Black areas is put down largely to the poor housing conditions that exist in these areas, and this problem, we know, is in fact extending rapidly into the squatter camps which surround our cities.

I think we will all accept that child abuse is a terrifying phenomenon and a spiralling number of cases have made it clear that the Child Care Act of 1983, which incidentally only became Law in 1987, is totally inadequate. It is in fact the hon the Minister’s responsibility to administer the Child Care Act and I draw to his attention the fact that this Act is in urgent need of revision. In fact, I believe this Act has hamstrung the South African legal system in relation to the prosecution of child abusers. This point has been brought to the hon the Minister’s attention on a number of occasions and one such occasion bears reference today. In November last year the National Director of Lawyers for Human Rights made it clear that of the several thousand child abuse cases during 1987, fewer than 200 successful prosecutions followed. In saying this, however, I do want to congratulate the Police on the fine work they did during 1988 in mounting a massive crackdown on child sex abusers, but this must not detract in any way from the statement made by the Director of Lawyers for Human Rights while speaking on the urgent need to change relevant Laws relating to child abuse. He said:

Yet those who have the power to change the law seem totally paralysed and we (the lawyers for human rights) predict that unless something is done, the vast majority of those arrested will be found not guilty, discharged and returned to society to continue their destructive deeds.

This is a highly unsatisfactory state of affairs.

How ever, we have to be concerned too with the disparities in sentences meted out to child abusers. We find in certain cases people being jailed for several years for committing sex acts on children, yet in other similar cases, offenders are given minimal fines. There can be again no doubt that this whole matter too is in urgent need of review. I would like to ask the hon the Minister to set this review in motion as soon as possible.

In South Africa we have fallen into the very dangerous situation of constantly talking about how to treat problems as and when they arise, rather than talking about preventing them from arising in the first place. We are always practising curative measures rather than preventative measures. This applies to all aspects of our life, from law and order, right down to social welfare.

Consequently, I believe, we never get close to really solving our problems. In this matter of child abuse we need to be considering not child abuse and how to deal with both the offended and the offenders, but rather we should be talking about child protection. We should be talking about preventative measures—measures we can take to prevent child abuse from taking place in the first instance.

Again I appeal to the hon the Minister to consider taking this under his wing. Undoubtedly the most important preventative measures one can take is through education. What is urgently needed is a massive education programme for children, making them aware of the many dangers that exist for them in society, making them aware of sexual offenders and how sexual offenders operate. This can most effectively be done through the schools and I urge the hon the Minister to discuss this matter with his education colleagues. What is required is a massive national education programme, involving all children of all race groups, all teachers of all race groups and all parents of all race groups, not under the auspices of own affairs health or education, but under the Department of National Health and Population Development.

A national policy needs to be adopted to stamp out one of the most hideous social problems of all times. Such an education programme must be aimed at the young, because too often when a child reaches puberty it may be too late for such an education programme to be effective.

We have to accept the shocking statistic that 70% to 80% of all child abusers were themselves abused as children. Sexual abuse in children is handed on from one generation to another—that is really what it boils down to—and it is a serious psychological disorder. It is only through the proper education of children in both the school and family situation that we are likely to start to come to grips with the problem.

We need to make as much reading material available to young children and to adults as possible—reading material that will educate the children themselves about the dangers they face, and at the same time keep the parents constantly aware of the dangers facing their children. By educating children about the dangers of sexual and other offenders, we will give them the courage and the self-confidence to report any attempted abuse against themselves or their peers.

As a top child psychologist has said recently of the situation in this country, “The South African legal system relating to child abuse is at best inadequate and at worst abusive in itself …” [Time expired.]

Mrs S HOOSEN:

Mr Chairman, I fully agree with and support the previous speaker.

In three minutes’ time I have to drive two points home which affect the victims of apartheid very frightfully.

The first point concerns the plight of people who have been working for 30 years or more at the Department of National Health and Population Development. This means that as temporary employees they do not get a housing subsidy and when they retire they are not granted a pension. It is inhuman to give someone R100 at the end of his term of service and thank him when he has served his country all his life. I make a sincere appeal to the hon the Minister to look into this matter.

The second point I wish to mention concerns non-White doctors. Due to the apartheid laws they were forced to study overseas. Finally they returned to their own country after qualifying fully. They sought employment but were told that their qualification was not recognised. Special application was made to the South African Medical and Dental Council.

These doctors can be of great service to our Black community. They should be allowed to come back and serve the community for two years, including one day per week in clinics, free of charge. This will help the less fortunate and the South African non-White doctors will serve their own people.

Mr Chairman, I am sure that you will agree that I would have done better if I had more time, but in future proceedings I shall speak to the hon the Minister. In the past I have supported many applications to the South African Medical and Dental Council. I always saw that whenever an application was made by a non-White doctor, it was turned down and the reply was always negative. Many letters have been written and they are forgotten. By the time I receive a reply I myself make many telephone calls, especially to the department in Pretoria, and I keep talking and every time they pass the buck from one person to the next. I do not know what to do any more.

I shall therefore appreciate it if the hon the Minister could look into this problem. It sometimes happened that a letter was addressed to a certain person, and as soon as they received it, I telephoned the secretary who said that the letter had been received. The moment I asked whether the letter had been forwarded to the Director or the person in charge, I did not get a satisfactory answer. Whether the letter or memorandum had disappeared at the department, we do not know. If another application was written out, the same thing happened all over again.

I would therefore appreciate it if the hon the Minister could investigate the problem so that we can at least help our non-White doctors.

*Mr J H CUNNINGHAM:

Mr Chairman, I am sure that the hon the Minister will address the problems raised by the hon member for Tafel-berg.

Today I want to turn to a completely different facet of the medical world and I doubt whether it has been discussed here yet. It deals with the combating of Aids. This problem is becoming increasingly topical and I think it is coming into prominence as a result of the many deaths which we read about. The problem is brought to our attention as a result of the Press and as a result of the fact that no effective treatment for it exists at the moment, and not because of the extent of the problem.

Another ugly phenomenon has now arisen, which is that as part of the anti-Aids campaign more and more voices are being raised, also in our own ranks, calling for the control of prostitution, which is regarded as the largest single potential spreader. The reasoning behind it is that we must legalise prostitution so that there can be effective control from a medical viewpoint. In other words if we legalise prostitution, we can ask prostitutes to submit to medical examinations on a regular basis. According to the advocates view of this the examinations can occur regularly and this will control the spread of Aids.

To my mind people who argue like that reveal great ignorance, especially with regard to Aids as a disease and also of the virus that results in Aids, namely the MI virus. But, what happens in practice? When a person is tested medically, it is not for Aids, but for antibodies that start building up after exposure to the virus which ultimately leads to the disease, in other words the MI virus. It is very interesting that a positive test does not necessarily mean that a person has Aids. It does mean though that he was exposed to the virus. The alarming aspect is that from that moment we can accept that he can infect others. A person who has already been exposed, however, may test negative for a period of time, and that is the great danger. He or she can therefore be regarded as “healthy” and pass as “healthy” but still carry the dormant virus from that stage onwards. That is precisely the problem we have with these voices calling for the legalisation of prostitution. A prostitute may test negative today and then she is “free” of Aids—that is what the people will say. In the meantime she carries the virus and starts to infect other people.

From a judicial point of view, legalisation is certainly not going to combat the virus if our object is to make medical tests compulsory. There is, however, also a moral and religious consideration behind the legalisation of prostitution. Firstly it will probably increase the throng of clients, as prostitutes will then be legally “free”. Therefore it will have exactly the opposite result. Whereas it can still be regarded as a deterrent against prostitution, it could promote it in future. Prostitutes who test positive for Aids are not necessarily going to change their profession. It has become very clear in overseas countries that even though they test positive for venereal diseases including Aids, they continue to practise their profession in the streets or under cover.

Therefore the answer does not lie in the legalisation of prostitution. I think that the answer is rather to be found in stricter legislation on prostitution. I come to a further facet, namely to prohibit escort clubs and massage parlours. I want to tell the hon members that the overwhelming majority of these, if not all of them, are nothing but a front for legal brothels. The only result this had was that a few shoe manufacturers increased their sales!

Recent court cases have once again proved that the ladies working in escort clubs—if I may call, them ladies—are nothing but than prostitutes. The defence of owners, that their girls sign forms stating that they will not practise prostitution, has been proved to be ridiculous. And they are just as much potential spreaders of the disease as any other full-time prostitute.

The legalisation of prostitution and the medical examination of prostitutes and female companions is not the answer! We must make it very clear that we, as Government and as majority parties in every House, are not in any way considering the legalisation of prostitution at all. We do not want to do it, we shall not do it, and we shall certainly not legalise it in order to combat Aids.

In my opinion the answer is twofold. Firstly it lies in stricter legislation on prostitution and the total abolition of escort clubs and so-called massage clubs. Secondly we must at the same time start up an Aids information campaign and inform everyone who indulges or participates in high-risk sexual practices of the dangers involved. This can counteract the spread of Aids, not the legalisation of prostitution. The single greatest factor, however, is the individual. Only he can help to fight Aids.

At this juncture I want to thank and praise the department for what they are doing and have already done in respect of the fight against Aids. A responsibility rests on the shoulders of every hon member in this House to strengthen the hands of this department even further, and to convey the message of the dangers attached to licentiousness clearly and distinctly. People must be told clearly and distinctly that a licentious life can mean the death sentence. I advocate stronger legislation against prostitution, not its legalisation.

Dr I ESSOP:

Mr Chairman, while I was driving behind a car yesterday I saw one of those window stickers which read: “Stop Aids. Don’t bend for a friend.”

The first two cases of Aids in South Africa were diagnosed in White male homosexuals in Pretoria in December 1982. By 4 January 1988 the number of reported cases had increased to 98. Of these cases 76 are South Africans. Mortality for all Aids cases up to 4 January 1988 was 67% and for South African cases the figure was 70%. In South Africa the average survival period after diagnosis is three months, whereas in the United Kingdom and the United States it is at least nine and twelve months respectively.

Mr Chairman, Johannesburg contributed 46— that is 61%—of the total 76 known South African cases. The cumulative incidence for South Africa as a whole is 1,8 per million. This increases to 15,5 per million when one uses the White population as a denomination. The cumulative incidence in Johannesburg is 182 per million. This increases to 263 per million when the number of White males aged 15 to 64 years— the main risk group—is used as a denomination.

The pattern of Aids in South Africa is similar to that of Western Aids. Homosexuals and bisexuals account for 86% of the patients and 97% are men. Of the 76 South African patients 72 or 95% are White, 3 or 4% are Black, and 1 or 1% is Coloured. Of the 22 patients who are not South African 21 or 95% are heterosexuals and 17 or 77% are men. Only 5 or 23% are White, 16 or 73% are Black and 1 or 5% is Asian. On the basis of the known Aids cases it is apparent that the HIV infection in South Africa seems to be largely confined to the White male homosexual.

Although 95% of the Aids patients in South Africa have been White the distribution of the HIV infection seems to be different. Of the 1 708 HIV positive specimens of donor blood tested, 1 506 originated from Black donors. It seems clear that the rate among Black donors may be considerably higher than that among Whites. It is alarming to hear that the total number of HIV positive donors has increased to 2 300 in January 1988. A cohort of 16 000 pregnant Black women yielded 7 HIV positive specimens. This indicates a carrier rate of 437 per 1 million or about 1 500 HIV carriers in the total Black population of South Africa.

Studies of high-risk groups in South Africa suggest a prevalence of HIV infection of approximately 25% among White homosexuals and 88% among pediatric patients with bleeding disorders while at present intravenous drug abusers appear to be free of infection.

The South African situation is compounded by a number of social and economic factors intrinsic to our society which may enhance the impact of HIV infection. These include the predominance of men in the urban centres. Our migrant labour system which separates men and women from their spouses for long periods, the size of our migrant labour population, the large number of single-sex dwellings which is conducive to prostitution and promiscuity, the political tension in townships, the large number of language groups and, last but not least, the fragmentation of curative and preventive health services. All these factors impede concerted and effective action.

The incidence of other sexually transmitted diseases may be an indicator of the potential and magnitude of the HIV problem in South Africa. Aids is not confined to White male homosexuals or homosexuals of colour in South Africa. HIV infection among Blacks in South Africa is likely to be predominantly heterosexual. Therefore it is imperative to identify social and economic conditions in South Africa which contribute to heterosexual promiscuity. The HIV infection rather than Aids is used as an indicator. There are more than 2 300 cases so far. The magnitude of the problem facing’ South Africa therefore becomes obvious. It is reasonable to assume that we are witnessing the beginning of what could be an epidemic.

It is imperative and essential that the education programme or campaign to control the HIV problem in South Africa should be conducted openly and that all facts available to the authorities should be presented to the public at large in an understandable format irrespective of whether they are acceptable to particular groups or individuals. This implies the general availability of condoms and spermicides. The repeal of legislation and the correction of conditions which encourage promiscuous sexual behaviour could assist in the combating of Aids.

As I have time left I should like to touch on a few other things.

*I should like to support what the hon member for Swartland said about the treatment of our people at the hands of doctors in our constituencies. I heard at a meeting in Barkly West on Sunday of a pregnant woman who walked to the doctor’s consulting rooms. Her labour pains started in the consulting room. The doctor then told her that she had to go to hospital immediately. There was no taxi or other transport available and therefore she had to walk to the hospital. The child was born along the way and died.

That is not all. Our people often have to rent a bakkie or whatever to take them to hospital or to the doctor. They arrive early in the morning and then have to wait outside in the sun or the cold. They often have to wait until all the Whites have seen the doctor and often until five or six o’clock. The doctor often just glances at them or asks them what is wrong and then gives them some medicine. Then those people have to return home. Often they have to walk back because they do not have money for transport.

Then there are the ambulance services. Earlier this year an accident in which nine people died took place on the road from Strydenburg to Cape Town. The people had to be picked up. There was no ambulance service available. The police went to the scene of the accident. Hon members know how quickly the police appear on the scene; I will not say how long it takes them, however; only how quickly they are on the scene of an accident. The police had to pick up those bodies and take them to Hopetown which was 60 kilometres away. When they arrived at Hopetown, they found that there were not enough facilities to accommodate nine corpses with the result that a few of the bodies had to be taken to Philipstown. If there had been a good ambulance service, many of those people would still have been alive today. [Interjections.] Yes, they were dead.

*An HON MEMBER:

You said the police had picked up bodies.

*Dr I ESSOP:

Yes, when they got there, they were corpses. They were not dead yet when the police picked them up; they had to wait for an hour or two. [Interjections.] They had to wait for approximately three hours. They were alive! Once the police had picked them up and taken them to Hopetown and from there to Philipstown, they were corpses. [Interjections.]

Let us talk about pollution. During the rain last year 260 houses in Longlands in my constituency collapsed. Since the place has not been proclaimed yet, the House of Representatives cannot build homes for those people. Much is said about group areas, but nothing happens. [Interjections.] The reason they do not want to proclaim the area, is that approximately 15 Whites who live there do not want to move. The houses are standing empty. [Interjections.] Those people will now have to spend the winter in prefabricated homes. They do not even have fresh water. The water in the river is polluted. [Interjections.] A White man brings water in a lorry and sells it to the people. Last week he knocked down a child. Now he no longer goes there, because he has to appear in court. In the meantime the people are without water! [Interjections.]

The hon the Deputy Minister mentioned birth control. He said the population must not increase at such a high rate. When the mother, father, uncle, brother and sister all live in one room, they not only get Aids, but there is also an urge to procreate. [Interjections.] As long as these socio-economic circumstances exist, we will never succeed in reducing the population rate. [Interjections.]

*Dr J J VILONEL:

Do you have a solution?

*Dr I ESSOP:

There is a solution. Give our people decent housing. Give them lights where there is no lighting.

*Dr J J VILONEL:

There is no money.

*Dr I ESSOP:

Why is there no money? Why is there money for the Whites, but never for us? [Interjections.] The hon member must not tell me—as I was told in Douglas—that our people are riding on the backs of the Whites. Boksburg has proved that the Whites were riding on the backs of my people. We proved that in other places they had been riding on our backs, because when we stopped buying there, the Whites had to close their stores.

Dr J J VILONEL:

[Inaudible.]

*Dr I ESSOP:

No, they can use the money. The hon member must tell me which Whites live as we do. [Interjections.] When a White’s home collapses in the rain, he gets another house tomorrow. Look at what happened in Douglas. Go and look at my constituency.

*Dr J J VILONEL:

I grew up in a home made of galvanised iron.

*Dr I ESSOP:

The hon member grew up among the Whites. [Interjections.]

*The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr G J Malherbe):

Order!

*Dr I ESSOP:

That hon member does not experience the same things in his constituency as we do. The Whites sell drugs and brandy to our people. There are Whites in the hotels and they are the people who hold my people’s pension books. The farmers hold the pension books. They draw the pensions. They stand beside my people when they go to draw their pensions. The hon member must go and see how many Whites stand beside the people and as soon as they get their pensions, take the money.

*Dr J J VILONEL:

Are you a racist?

*Dr I ESSOP:

I am not a racist! However, I tell the truth.

†If we do not want to see the population go down we should see to it that every house has electricity because darkness leads to crime. [Interjections.] Where is the money? Why do they have the money? Show me one White town which has not got lights.

Dr J J VILONEL:

Why is Oppenheimer a millionaire and I am not?

Dr I ESSOP:

I am not worried about why Oppenheimer is a millionaire; I am talking about the Whites. Why do we have teenage pregnancies? It is because there is mostly just darkness in our areas. There are not even decent roads. The children have to go out of their house.

For example, in a city like Kimberley we still have the very same problems. Some people do not even have lights in their houses. I would like the hon member to go with me into these areas and if he does not cry blood, I will put my head on a block.

Mrs H SUZMAN:

Mr Chairman, the last two speakers have raised the very important question of Aids and the way in which this is spreading in South Africa. I am sure we are all going to await with much interest what the hon the Minister has to tell us about the campaign, in particular the educational campaign, to combat this fatal disease which is spreading at such an alarming rate in Africa and South Africa.

I want to raise another subject. I make no apology for raising a subject which I have raised before in this House. Indeed, I am used to making suggestions in Parliament which are often howled down and some 10 or 15 years later the laws which I have criticised are either amended or repealed altogether. I am talking about laws such as job reservation, the pass laws, the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act and Section 16 of the Immorality Act, just to give a few examples.

Today I am going to have another crack at getting the hon the Minister perhaps to give second thoughts to appointing a commission of enquiry into the working and efficacy of the Abortion and Sterilisation Act of 1975, which I opposed when it was introduced and have been trying to get amended ever since. I want to make it very clear that I am speaking on my own behalf. The subject of abortion is not a policy subject as far as the PFP was concerned and now as far as the DP is concerned. We allow free vote on this subject. It is a subject which has religious and various other implications and there is no party policy per se. I talk on my own behalf.

I want a commission of enquiry appointed because the commission which led to the passing of the Abortion and Sterilisation Act of 1975 was a commission consisting of males only—a commission going into the important question of abortion which largely affects women. I want this commission to have qualified women on it, both sexes, members of the legal profession, social workers, doctors and nurses. I want them to be women and members of all races in this country, for the commission that reported was not only an all-male commission but also an all-White commission. This is a subject that I believe affects all of us.

Other hon members have talked of the alarming population explosion—certainly most alarming unless it is curbed. According to demographic projections by the HSRC by the year 2035—that is in only 45 years’ time; I will not be here but a lot of other hon members will be—there will be a population of 118 750 million people in South Africa. That is of course if we continue with our present high fertility projection. If we have a low fertility projection we will have 94,5 million people. That is far more people than South Africa can possibly provide for at an acceptable standard of living.

To quote the past president of the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut we need to “resort to drastic measures to control the birth rate”. All of us know that improved standards of living go hand in hand with a lower birth rate. I think that is accepted by everybody. Family planning is, of course, also the most acceptable method of trying to control the large increase in births that we have in this country annually. However, the existing service in South Africa is not very effective, and I believe it must be backed up by a more liberal abortion law.

The conference on population development which was held in Johannesburg, and which the hon the Deputy Minister mentioned, approved of the family planning programme which Taiwan had carried out. However, what was not mentioned at the congress is the fact that Taiwan has had legalised abortion since 1985, and now a rate of about 100 000 abortions per annum has been stabilised. There is no case of a successful family planning programme being carried out anywhere in the world without the backup of a more liberal abortion law. [Time expired.]

Mrs E J CHAIT:

Mr Chairman, one of the most devastating tragedies that is facing the world today is Aids, the killer virus.

An article in the Journal of Clinic Medicine of last year said:

We are a nation at war. The enemy HIV is elusive, insidious and deadly. Before the war is over Aids could kill five times as many men and women as died in Vietnam. Like that conflict, this war is building slowly and could eventually touch every city and town in the United States. The men and women who will be drafted into the conflict and sent to the trenches are the nation’s internists and family doctors.

This could also be true of South Africa.

The mortality rate of those who develop Aids is 100%. As yet there is no cure available and although much promising research is being carried out throughout the world it seems unlikely that a vaccine will be developed this century. At this stage the only way to reduce the potential incidence of Aids is through a massive and intensive simplistic awareness campaign.

Speaking on the eve of the World Aids Day in November the hon the Minister said that Aids had not yet obtained a serious hold on South Africa and that appropriate action should now be taken to combat the spreading of this fatal disease more effectively. The measures entailed are the establishment of a data base on the spreading of the HIV in South Africa, the establishment of information centres in Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, Durban and Bloemfontein which, like Johannesburg, will serve as information PROs and training centres for health counsellors, making more free condoms available on request, the countrywide distribution of informative brochures in various languages, and making informative brochures available for doctors and people in other related careers.

Dr Rubin Sher, an expert on Aids at Wits University, has said that should the carriers of the Aids virus persist in not wanting to be identified and be reluctant to seek medical assistance, the killer disease will spread like wildfire on the subcontinent, and South Africa could be sitting on a time bomb.

Initially Aids seemed to be a condition limited to homosexual, bisexual people and recipients of blood products, but now it is becoming a heterosexual disease. The average cost of treating a single Aids patient varies from R40 000 to R80 000 per annum. This places the treatment of Aids patients in the same category as that of heart bypass surgery.

The hospital costs of Aids patients in South Africa could amount to R94 million within the next few years. In the workplace the total loss of production as a result of Aids could be in the region of 230 million man hours per annum. Production losses in the next few years could cost South Africa more than major strikes in industry. If Aids cannot be controlled it will severely test the reserves of insurance companies as well as the national economy, according to the South African Institute of Personnel Management.

South Africa could have as many as 8 000 cases of Aids sufferers by 1994 if the spread follows the pattern it did in the USA. By the middle of January of this year 195 cases were diagnosed in South Africa of which 155 males and 15 females originated in the country. Of the 191 reported cases up to December last year 114 have died. Johannesburg has become the Aids capital of South Africa with the highest number of victims. Initially transmitted mainly by White homosexuals, the disease is now a predominantly heterosexual disease and is affecting more Blacks. Cape Town and Durban are second and third.

The tests of 6 631 people at Johannesburg family planning and sexually transmitted disease clinics revealed that after February of this year 40 Blacks had contracted the HIV which causes Aids, as against 14 Whites and one Coloured. One woman in 360 at the antenatal service of the Baragwanath Hospital was diagnosed as having the virus in August of last year, compared with one in every 2 130 in May 1987.

Dr Buks Lombard, Director of Medical Services of the Department of National Health and Population Development, said in Pretoria that South Africa would experience increased deaths in the sexually and economically active middle-aged group and that more children would die. Fifty percent of the babies born to infected mothers live up to the age of three years and, because Aids is a predominantly urban disease, people might move to rural areas which they would perceive as safer.

The rising trend in numbers is very clear. African countries closest to South Africa with the most victims this year are Tanzania with 3 055 cases, Zambia with 1 056, Zimbabwe with 119 and Malawi with 2 586 cases, according to the World Health Organisation. It is apparent that the Government with its massive publicity campaign, coupled with the scientific expertise, will do everything humanly possible to prevent the enormous spread of the disease that is predicted, and I am confident that it will continue to do so.

A total of 20 905 cases have been reported in Africa and the virus could claim half the continent’s inhabitants by 1999. Jonathan Mann of the WHO said:

Aids has become a touchstone for political belief, has unveiled thinly disguised prejudice about race, religion, social class and nationality. As a result we are witnessing a rising tide of stigmatisation against Westerners in Asia, against Africans in Europe, of prostitutes, of homosexuals, of people with haemophilia and of recipients of blood transfusions. Fears …

[Time expired.]

*Mr L C ABRAHAMS:

Mr Chairman, firstly I want to support my colleague, the hon member for Swartland, in his condemnation earlier this afternoon of apartheid in health services. I also take my hat off to the hon the Administrator of the Cape, who spoke out against the deficiencies and the cost-effectiveness of the duplication of medical services, amongst others.

We pray for the day when South Africa will develop into a country in which the colour of one’s skin will be subordinate to one’s being a human being and expressing this in the South African milieu. We merely want to issue a timeous word of warning. Every day we hear hon members of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly tell the people outside that they are the possible future governors of this country. [Interjections.] We want to warn them that we find the present dispensation with regard to hospital and health services in this country repugnant. What they are proposing is totally unacceptable.

Secondly I want to support the hon the Deputy Minister of Population Development in his efforts in connection with the population development programme.

†There are many drawbacks we experience in this country—they are massive—which manifest themselves in socio-economic conditions and circumstances, and obviously these have a direct bearing on the work which the hon the Deputy Minister and his department are trying to do. We are optimistic enough to believe that in spite of all this he will be able to overcome this problem.

*We believe that we will not need an Aids problem to bring our numbers down. I want to devote the rest of my speech this afternoon to a discussion of Aids. Firstly I want to say that I agree with the sentiments expressed here earlier this afternoon by the hon members for Stilfon-tein and Griqualand West, as well as the hon member Mrs Chait, who spoke before me.

I know a great deal is already being done to test people for Aids in this country. Let me just mention that with regard to Aids tests for blood transfusions, between 1985 and December 1988 no fewer than 3 million or so blood samples were tested. Of these units 326 tested positively, and if we remember that these 3 million blood samples cost no less than R10 each, we can make the calculation ourselves. It comes to something like R30 million in costs in three years. This is an enormous sum of money, but I believe that we must do this to ensure our survival.

At the moment between 750 000 and 1 million units are being tested per year. As I have said, nowadays this costs approximately R10 million per year, and this does not include manpower and tourists.

†Let me also welcome the move by the department to set up Aids advisory centres in Cape Town, Durban, Port Elizabeth and Bloemfontein.

*As a resident of Kimberley and a person who is extremely provincialistic, I want to ask when it is going to be Kimberley’s turn. [Interjections.]

†Johannesburg, as we all know, already has an Aids Training and Information Centre and is administered by the SA Institute of Medical Research. The four new centres will be administered by the relevant local authorities, and it is here that I wish to sound a word of warning. Let us maintain the same standards at these centres and let us co-ordinate our educational campaigns.

*It is an irrefutable fact that so many good projects in South Africa fail owing to a lack of communication. Let us know what we are doing, and let us also know amongst ourselves what is being done.

†Although Aids is a medical disease it is very true that it is also a social problem. To the average man eating, drinking and sex make up the necessities of life. While the church teaches morality, we on the other hand are bombarded in the popular media daily, in magazines as well as in the electronic media, with images and perceptions glorifying a promiscuous lifestyle. Perhaps the time has once again arrived for men of religion in particular to turn and urge their flock onto the narrow road, and perhaps leave politics to the politicians.

*I believe that the dissemination of information on Aids by the media is of the utmost importance, but I also believe that it must be done correctly. I believe one of the major problems in the fight against Aids is the negative news coverage on the disease. People branded as having Aids are avoided by their fellow man. They lose their jobs and even their families avoid them. Consequently the potential Aids carrier is the unknown factor. They are too afraid to have themselves tested for Aids. Hon members will recall another disease, namely tuberculosis, with which problems were experienced years ago when people viewed the disease in the same light as leprosy. How many of these potential Aids carriers are not spreading the disease without being identified?

I want to ask whether the time has not come for young couples who are on the point of getting married to be compelled to have Aids tests? This is already being done in America. Has the time not also come for all prisoners to be tested for Aids? If this is being done perhaps the hon the Minister could tell us what percentage of the prisoners have tested positively. Has the time not also come for all expectant mothers—I repeat all expectant mothers—who report to a State or private hospital or to a medical practitioner to have compulsory tests? If the hon the Minister tells me this is already being done at certain hospitals I want to ask him why there is this selective morality? Why only at certain hospitals?

†The Admission of Persons to South Africa Regulation Act allows non-South Africans to be tested for various diseases. I want to ask the hon the Minister if this includes Aids and if this is so, what is the position at present of persons who are recruited to our mines? I recall a 1986 survey which showed 130 positive cases, where Malawi led the field. I also ask the situation as regards Lesotho, Swaziland and Botswana whose nationals also work mostly in this country. What is the situation in Zambia and Angola? Does the hon the Minister expect a spill-over effect of Aids when thousands of Namibian refugees return to their native land from Zambia and Angola later this year? How does he think this will affect South Africa? Last year there were 84 cases in South Africa and according to Dr Rubin Sher that figure could reach 1 200 by 1991. The World Health Organisation estimates that at present there are 10 million people in 128 countries who are Aids carriers.

*We know that the figure is actually far higher, because one never gets the correct figure from Africa. We know that because of tourism and for other reasons too they are hiding the truth. However, we are at the southern tip of Africa and we must heed, note and ascertain what the true facts are. What happens there has a habit of happening here in South Africa too.

†It is true that the present Aids incidence in South Africa is still relatively small. However, must we always wait until a disease reaches astronomical proportions before the public wakes up to its pitfalls?

*I want to issue a warning that medical antidotes alone will not counteract this disease sufficiently. A reconsideration of people’s sense of values and morality is needed. This is necessary if our children and their children want to survive in Southern Africa.

Col S G BLOOMBERG:

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow on the hon member for Diamant.

In a recent wide-ranging and incisive interview published in the January/February 1988 issue of RSA Policy Review the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development provided extremely interesting perspectives of the health problems facing us as a nation. It is a great pity that his views did not receive the media attention they deserved. The hon the Minister made four significant points regarding the health problems facing us, tuberculosis, trauma, cardiovascular disease and most important of all, the country’s population growth. As he rightly remarked, if the population growth does not stabilise, our resources will simply be inadequate. I believe it pertinent to quote the hon the Minister in full:

The faster the population grows, the more difficult it will become to provide adequate health care. If the average population growth of 2,3% persists, the population will increase from the current 28 million to an estimated 80 million by the year 2020. The South African population will become impoverished and will be confronted with greater poverty, unemployment and especially social decline and decay. The problem will manifest mainly in the health sphere.

Of course the problems highlighted by the hon the Minister are not the only ones. One thinks of malaria and all the diseases which became rampant after the destruction of health mechanisms by revolutions and regional conflicts. One thinks of alcoholism which costs the country millions upon millions of rands in lost man hours and treatment, as well as inflicting social instability in the family unit, which we can ill afford. One thinks of smoking related diseases. Since all cigarette packets carry health warnings, perhaps the time has come to get similar official health warnings printed on bottles of alcohol beverages as is done by law in certain states of the USA, where labels warn people of the danger of health problems. However, I am digressing. I hope to be able to elaborate at some later stage on the sterling work done by those entrusted with the South African population development programme.

As for now, I wish to draw the attention of this Committee to the problem we face with regard to tuberculosis. Although Aids is very much in the news and some people have painted doomsday scenarios in that regard, and while there is no denying the horrific effects this disease could bring in the future, one must not allow one disease to obscure the fight against other and more pressing diseases. I have no wish to minimise the dangers of Aids, yet after all the talk, all the conferences and all the efforts by the best medical minds and researchers in the world, we are still nowhere near developing a vaccine, let alone a cure.

However, at the present time it is tuberculosis which presents a far greater problem. It has assumed epidemic proportions, particularly in the Western Cape. Let us compare the statistics regarding Aids and TB. As at 6 March 1989 over 60% of the 209 identified clinical cases of Aids in South Africa had already died. In total 26 of these originally came in from other countries and in 26 cases the disease was heterosexually transmitted. Of the 209 South African cases 133 are White homosexual or bisexual men, 10 resulted from transfusion, 9 were haemophiliacs and 5 cases were of a paediatric nature.

We also know that there are approximately 2 000 HIV-positive cases in South Africa and there are also cases which carry the virus but as yet present no clinical picture. More than 2 million people have already been tested with the co-operation of the blood transfusion services. If the 2 000 cases identified to date are extrapolated in relation to the total population, there should be 20 000 HIV-positive cases in this country which, compared to other African countries, is relatively few. Persons with Aids have a higher to susceptibility to TB. In fact, 50% of Aids victims are known to have TB.

Without in any way minimising the dangers which Aids holds, not only for us but for the continent as a whole, I want to point out that TB produces some 60 000 diagnosed new cases every year and last year the mortality rate was 2 261— all these people could have been saved. It is clearly an unacceptable state of affairs despite the valiant efforts made by our State health services. TB is probably still the major infectious disease in the country today. It is responsible not only for threatening precious Godsent life but also for causing permanent damage to sufferers thus placing an enormous burden on the economy in terms of treatment and lost productivity.

It is estimated that half of the world’s population is infected with the TB virus. It is estimated that there are 10 million infectious cases worldwide and that 1 million people die from this disease annually. Thus tuberculosis remains a major uncontrolled health problem.

In 1985-86 an amount of R75 million was spent in the Republic of South Africa to control tuberculosis. In 1988-89 an amount of R114 million was spent on 47 000 cases. Clearly we have to devote more money to this problem as tuberculosis is treated free of charge.

Clearly a solution must be found as soon as possible and I would submit that both the public and the private sectors have a pivotal role to play in this regard to combat what has been described as the scourge of the eighties.

This disease cannot be tackled in isolation. The total co-operation of all concerned is needed in providing better housing, improved living conditions and in developing communities in an adequate infrastructure of health services can be established. Yet I believe that far greater emphasis should be placed on preventive measures without neglecting the curative aspect. Commerce, industry and the public sector should to my mind serve as the first line of defence by making chest X-rays mandatory before admitting any person to employment irrespective of race, colour or creed. I do not think this extra expenditure would place an undue financial burden on employers and on medical aid societies. This fairly modest outlay would, in fact, help the national health effort dramatically, cut cost in the long term and also help the individual employee and his or her colleagues.

It is true that voluntary organisations play a vital role in our health services as regards TB. The work of the South African National Tuberculosis Association, better known as Santa with its cross of Lorraine, deserves special mention. At the same time I must point out that these voluntary organisations are hampered in their activities by a lack of funds which has become as endemic as any pernicious disease. In the case of TB everyone is at risk.

As regards health problems we must clearly subsidize those who genuinely cannot afford treatment. In the final analysis the responsibility for the early detection of certain diseases, TB in particular, must, I submit, rest on a public and private sector screening program. Clearly X-rays are not cheap and although accusations are bandied about that it is this side of the Committee which brings politics into health, let us not forget the example of a very large US company which disinvested totally from this country and cut off its supplies of X-ray plates as well. I most sincerely believe that a joint screening programme should be implemented as soon as possible to combat this scourge of mankind.

Needless to say the fight against this ancient enemy must also draw in our independent and self-governing states as well as other states on the subcontinent. Our health is their health. There should be no politics in health. Given the global vision of the hon the Minister on health matters I am confident that he will devise cost-effective ways and means to put such a programme in place and bring down dramatically the incidence of TB.

In conclusion I would like to think that South African scientific genius which has pioneered so many advances in the world will come up with both a vaccine and a cure for this dreaded disease TB. I fervently pray that our scientists and researchers will succeed in lighting a candle for mankind.

Mr C N MOODLIAR:

Mr Chairman, I wish to address this honourable Committee by drawing the attention of the hon the Minister and of hon members to the ruination of society by alcoholism. No other disease in the world separates husband from wife, children from a loving father and employer from an employee like alcoholism does. This insidious disease has made inroads into our social and economic life and destroyed our youth. It is said that every alcoholic affects the lives of fourteen other people. Every alcoholic suffers from a threefold disease, physical, mental and spiritual and unless and until help is forthcoming, he is doomed to die.

On the slopes of Table Mountain there lives a community of people who once were responsible men. Some were professional people and others were artisans. Due to the affliction of alcoholism, however, these people are now known as “bergies”. I am a Natalian interested in alcohol rehabilitation and therefore I have taken an interest in them. I am also interested in the promotion of sobriety. What I saw there and the stories related to me were heart-rending. Alcohol is no discriminator in respect of colour, creed or race.

Alcohol finally takes away every alcoholic to a premature death. At a recent indaba of the Medical Association of South Africa at Pietermaritzburg, Professor Harry Seftel from the Department of African Diseases, Faculty of Medicine at the University of Witwatersrand, said alcohol was the prime cause of deaths. It manifests itself largely through violence, homicides and road accidents.

Alcohol also causes death by high blood pressure, damage to the brain, irreparable damage to most organs and malnutrition. Reliable statistics indicate that Blacks drink 80% of all beer, 60% of all brandy, 50% of all cane 70% of all vodka, and 60% of all fortified wines. I think most hon members from the Cape Province do not know cane spirits. However, I come from Natal where Mainstay is the most famous cane spirits. It is said that this has made Natal famous.

The use of alcohol is increasing, particularly among the youth in all race groups. Hon members can probably recall the incidents where young boys and girls invaded the pubs in and around Johannesburg on the day the schools broke up. It shows that the victims of alcohol are the very young.

A study of those starting their National Service showed that 82% consumed alcohol at least once a week. Professor Seftel went on to say that alcohol abuse had a severe effect on the country’s economy. In 1985 it cost South Africa R1 200 million in lost production, medical costs, motor accidents, violence and crime. In 1984 more than R3,5 million was spent on alcohol alone. In 1985 this had risen to over R4 million. I strongly believe—and hon members in this Committee will agree with me—that alcohol sales constitute the Government’s goose that lays the golden eggs. However, the repercussions are so severe that the same State has to forego thousands to repair the damage caused by alcohol later on in the way of clinics and rehabilitation centres.

Government revenue from alcohol amounted to R1,016 million in 1984 and R1,163 million in 1985. Whereas Sanca and agencies such as Alcholics Anonymous are helping with the rehabilitation of alcoholics, the involvement must start at an early age. Educationists at schools, colleges and universities must take an interest in fighting this insidious disease and the media, TV and radio should assist in its prevention. Perhaps a social worker can visit our schools and can, with the use of films and other teaching aids, present the negative side of liquor taking. My appeal goes beyond all party affiliations. I am making a sincere appeal to all party members in this committee to attack this problem and to find ways in which we can combat this very serious disease that is silently destroying our community, our youth and the social fabric of South African life.

A packet of cigarettes carries a label, and I must thank the hon the Minister for this. The label says “Smoking is a health risk”. It is bad for one’s health.

However, when I see the idyllic scenes on television, namely a beautiful palm-fringed island, bikini-clad girls as well as the bottle there, it is such an inducement that even the nondrinker will experiment to see how this thing goes. I am appealing to the hon the Minister in a very serious tone that these advertisements be banned, because they are a direct invitation to taking alcohol.

I do not want hon members to be under the assumption that every person who takes a sundowner is an alcoholic. [Interjections.] No, every person who takes alcohol is not an alcoholic. An alcoholic is a person whose life has become unmanageable through alcohol. These people need help very badly in the form of some rehabilitation and education programmes—as I said earlier—pointing out that alcohol is a dangerous drug and highly addictive.

It is my fervent appeal to the hon the Minister that we go ahead in 1989 involving all schools, educators, colleges and universities to point out the dangers of alcohol addiction.

The MINISTER OF NATIONAL HEALTH AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT:

Mr Chairman, it is indeed a great honour and pleasure to follow on the hon member for Phoenix who spoke with great knowledge on the problems of alcoholism. I would like to tell him that my department is indeed most worried about the misuse of alcohol and drugs in South Africa. For this reason we started and inaugurated the national programme on alcohol and drug abuse last year. I would like to let him have that programme tomorrow to study it as I would like to discuss it with him, because I can see that he is really knowledgeable about this particular facet of our social problems.

*I listened with very great attention and appreciation to the debate this afternoon. I want to tell the 18 hon members who participated in the debate that every one of them mentioned important aspects with regard to the health services of South Africa. The background against which this debate took place this afternoon has two important aspects that I should like to single out. In the first place there is the devolution of staff and functions from my department, with effect from 1 April 1988, which has been finalised. This is the final phase in the achievement of this devolution. Hon members may be interested to learn that this was a tremendous task in which 26 813 members of staff of my department were transferred to the provincial administrations.

A fair division of the department’s budget had to be considered. We had to ensure that these functions were transferred without disruption. Facilities and equipment had to be shared out. It took the implementation committees many manhours to complete this task.

Today I want to mention with great appreciation the officials, both of the provincial administrations and of the Department of National Health and Population Development, who worked very hard to ensure that this proceeded smoothly. I therefore extend my thanks to the Director-General and the various provincial secretaries.

Examples of functions which have been transferred include the following: In the first place, hospitals for psychiatric patients and related psychiatric community services and, secondly, hospitals for contagious and communicable diseases and specific functions in respect of these diseases.

Tomorrow afternoon I shall tell the hon member for Swartland what became of the salaries of his nurses who used to work in the hospital for communicable diseases at Malmesbury and have now been transferred to the province.

Hospitals which are operated for the SA Development Trust on an agency basis have been transferred. The Ga-Rankuwa Hospital, which is being operated for the Department of Education and Training on an agency basis, has been transferred to the provincial administration, as have school health services for the Black population, primary health care in the areas embodied in section 30, and full-time district surgeon services. Hon members can see that in this way we are trying to rationalise health services in such a way that we will be able to function ever more cost-effectively.

The second important aspect is the resources according to which the health services are operated in South Africa. There are three resources at our disposal, namely finance, manpower and the infrastructure. As regards finance, 5,4% of the GDP for the past year, including the TBVC states, has been spent on health services, but of this amount 37% came from the private sector and 63% from the public sector.

The World Health Organisation is calling for 5% of the GDP by the year 2000. It is therefore true that we are above this organisation’s goal, but the tremendous demands being made by the population of South Africa have resulted in our being underfunded in all the categories of health services. This is causing serious problems, and I will refer specifically to this tomorrow when I reply to each hon member’s contribution.

As regards manpower we are grateful that the number of doctors recorded on the register of the SA Medical and Dental Council up to last year has risen to 20 947, as against the figure of 15 663 for 1980. I am particularly grateful that the number of dentists has risen from 2 654 to 3 581 in the period 1980-88. In the same way the number of health inspectors has increased in the same period from 1 859 to 2 338. The number of occupational therapists has increased from 730 to 1 167, which is very good. The number of physiotherapists has risen from 1 920 to 2 562, and radiographers from 1 924 to 2 985, an increase of almost 1 000 in the past eight years. In 1980 the number of registered nursing staff was 109 195, and in 1988 this figure was 140 719.

There is, however, an alarming figure I must mention. In 1984 there were 13 360 student nurses. In 1989, this year, this figure had dropped to 9 955. We will have to make a plan to make the nursing profession more attractive for our young people. If we look at the number of nurses compared with the number of people per 1 000 of the population, the position is, however, still better than that in South America and the Middle East, and almost as good as the position in Europe. We must give attention to this, otherwise we are going to lag behind.

As regards our physical facilities, approximately 34 000 beds are at present being made available for people of colour. What is more important, however, is the fact that we must develop our community health services, and for that we need 500 clinics at approximately R446 000 per clinic, which is a total of R223 million. However, we could not get this amount.

If we therefore want to see the health services in perspective, we must look at the finance, the manpower and the physical requirements in turn. These are the parameters in respect of which we will continue tomorrow’s debate.

Debate interrupted.

The Committee adjourned at 18h30.

PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE ON HOME AFFAIRS

Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Chamber of the House of Delegates at 15h30.

Dr H M J van Rensburg, as Chairman, took the Chair.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS—see col 5733.

APPROPRIATION BILL (Consideration of Schedules resumed)

Debate on Vote No 21—“Home Affairs”:

*The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS:

Mr Chairman, to start with I should like to take the opportunity to extend a special word of thanks to Mr Albert Nothnagel, the hon member for Innesdal. He recently retired as Chairman of the Joint Committee on Home Affairs. I do not think any of the hon members here can dispute the fact that he did valuable work. Under his competent chairmanship, when he consistently succeeded in leading the committee to consensus, several important Acts were dealt with. Here I particularly have in mind the Identification Act, the Restoration of South African Citizenship Act and also the most recent Bill involving the Electoral Act and identification. The hon member was a respected chairman and our thanks go out to him for the excellent job he did there.

†I gladly convey to him today my and the Department’s congratulations on his appointment as Ambassador to the Netherlands.

HON MEMBERS:

Hear, hear!

The MINISTER:

Our best wishes accompany him in his important new task. I am convinced that he will command the same respect and that he will also achieve the same degree of success as he has attained on the joint committee.

I also want to refer to the new chairman of the joint committee, the hon member for Umlazi. He needs no introduction. He is a competent and respected member of this Parliament, and I wish to welcome him and convey my best wishes to him as regards his task as chairman.

*He knows that my door is always open for consultation, and he can depend upon my wholehearted co-operation.

I also want to take the opportunity of congratulating the hon nominated member Mr Desmond Lockey on his appointment as chairman of his particular House.

†I also congratulate the hon member Mr Seedat on his appointment as chairman of the House Committee on Home Affairs of his House. I wish these hon members well in their tasks.

During the Joint Sitting of Parliament on 6 April of this year, the hon the State President paved the way for a general election later this year. It is my department’s responsibility to ensure that the election machine runs as smoothly as possible in order to conduct this election successfully. At this stage, therefore, I wish to inform hon members of the preparation which the department is undertaking to achieve this goal. I would like to concern myself especially with three aspects, firstly, the training of electoral personnel; secondly, the updating of voters’ rolls; and thirdly, the elimination of erroneous entries in the voters’ rolls.

The training task for this year’s election will be an exceptional one. Hon members are already aware of the proposed amendments to the Electoral Act contained in the Elections and Identification Amendment Bill which appears on the Order Paper. These are comprehensive, but in conjunction with this, the forthcoming election will also be a first of its kind, where voters of all three Houses will be participating simultaneously. The proposed amending Bill must still be debated extensively. Meanwhile, my department must proceed with the preparation of new election manuals, the printing of various new election forms and the training of personnel that will have to cope with new election procedures. Should the Bill be approved in its entirety, the amended Electoral Act must also be reprinted in order that it may be disseminated timeously to election personnel. I am confident, however, that the parliamentary process will proceed smoothly, since this Bill enjoyed the full support of the Joint Committee.

As mentioned, the voters for all three Houses will be voting on the same day. This will be a comprehensive election and it is possible that all 306 constituencies could be contested. Previously only a maximum of 166 constituencies were contested on a single day.

Hon members will have appreciation for the fact that almost double the number of returning officers will have to be recruited. Apart from these officials there are also the additional presiding officers, polling officers and counting officers involved in every election.

To recruit suitable officers is a daunting task and as in the past, we will have to rely heavily on other State departments for assistance. I would therefore like to express my sincere thanks in particular to my colleague, the hon the Minister of Justice, for the support which he has already promised me, and for the full co-operation of his department on which we will once again rely heavily.

Magistrates and other officers from the Department of Justice have in the past been a source of expertise which we were able to utilize. I would like to thank them in advance for their valued contributions during the forthcoming general election.

I would, however, like to appeal urgently to my hon colleagues in the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates to make available competent officials from the departments under their control to assist in the election process.

My department envisages commencing with its training task early in May. At first, regional officers of the department acting ex officio as electoral officers, will be subjected to training. It will be their task to further train returning officers on a regional basis. This implies that potential returning officers will have to be identified at an early stage. The department has already commenced with this task.

It is only logical that no matter how well trained the new returning officers may be, they will encounter situations in practice which were not foreseen during training. In this regard I believe we as politicians can make a significant contribution.

Most of us taking part in the general election have already participated in one or more elections. We therefore possess knowledge and experience which some of our new returning officers will not have. We must utilize this knowledge positively and offer correct guidance to our returning officers in problematical situations.

We should not try to exploit their inexperience. Our aim must be to enable the maximum number of voters to cast their votes. If we render our required support in this regard, there is good reason to believe that on completion we will all be satisfied with the course of the election— possibly not with the result, Mr Chairman.

I trust that hon members will convey this message to their agents and assistants. They are all very important functionaries in the election process.

*The second matter I should like to broach relates to the updating of voters’ rolls. We all know that voters’ rolls are drawn up from the Population Register and no longer by means of a system of registration. Theoretically we have 100% of all White voters on our voters’ rolls, whilst the percentages for Coloureds and Indians are 94,2% and 95,1% respectively. In order to have up to date voters’ rolls, however, we must also have the voters’ current addresses, and that is where the problem lies. Here we are totally in the hands of our voters.

Hon members will recall that in 1987, just prior to the general election of the House of Assembly, we launched a very successful campaign amongst White voters requesting them to notify us of changes of address. The result was that slightly more than 1,3 million entries on the House of Assembly lists could be brought up to date.

Now we are dealing with all three Houses of Parliament, and I hope that the campaign which has already been launched will have the same positive results. On the previous occasion there was wonderful co-operation amongst political parties. They reported literally thousands of changes of address.

I would like to see the same pattern this year. If hon members are therefore doing field-work, they must not only do their canvassing, but should also ensure that the correct addresses appear on the voters’ lists.

Our campaign for 1989 has already begun. Press statements have been issued. Within a few days this will be followed up by radio discussions, news flashes on television and radio, advertisements in newspapers and magazines, posters and handbills.

For our part I should like to give the assurance that all changes of address that reach the department before the voters’ rolls close will, in fact, be incorporated in those lists.

Now I want to dwell for a moment on a few smaller, but nevertheless irritating, problems involving voters’ rolls. The first relates to a voter’s name appearing on the voters’ roll, but being placed in the wrong constituency or polling district. Over the years the department has drawn up a computerised alphabetical address register of all possible residential addresses in the RSA. This includes, inter alia, the names of suburbs, farms, the subdivision of farms and smallholdings, with an indication of the constituency and polling district in which each such suburb, farm or smallholding is situated.

Hon members will understand that as a result of the subdivision of farms and smallholdings and the creation of new suburbs, the duplication of names, etc, problems are experienced in practice when it comes to consistently updating the address register.

We are trying to resolve this problem by devolving the task to our regional and district offices. There the officers are more conversant with their respective electoral areas, and therefore better able to fully update the address register and correct the entries.

We know that a delimitation of constituencies will have to take place in the foreseeable future. The department would like to be fully prepared for this. So even at this stage, at considerable cost, we are standardising our computerised address register. By this method we shall ultimately be able to check every change of address, too, to make absolutely sure that the polling district and constituency for every address has been correctly ascertained. The computer programme is being designed in such a way that, within limits, even addresses that are incorrectly spelled or incomplete can be allocated their correct positions.

With the help of this system we have already amended the voters’ lists for the House of Assembly. The results have been extremely promising. More than 75 000 errors have been identified. These errors include the incorrect placement of addresses in constituencies and polling districts, something which has been a great source of aggravation in the past.

†We are in the process of expanding the system to the population register for the other two Houses of Parliament. Here we are, however, faced with another problem in that many voters of these two Houses had been entered in the voters’ lists under their postal addresses. Postal addresses are usually insufficient for correct allocation of polling districts and divisions. We will nevertheless try our very best to solve these problems too before the general election.

Another common complaint concerns the number of deceased voters whose names are still reflected on the voters’ roll. Furthermore, it is often brought to our notice that the names of voters who emigrated years ago still appear on the roll.

It is standard practice in the department that no name is removed from the voters’ roll before the identity of the voter concerned has been determined beyond any doubt. In the case of deaths the particulars reaching the department are often so meagre and the identity number lacking, that it cannot be positively linked to an entry in the voters’ roll. Similarly, people sometimes leave the country permanently while they merely indicate on their departure forms that they are proceeding overseas on holiday.

The Elections and Identification Amendment Bill, which is due to be considered shortly, addresses these problems and we trust that they will henceforth also be eliminated.

*Another matter that has also come to the fore very recently is the problem of fictitious changes of address. This is a serious matter which, to a limited extent, reared its ugly head for the first time in 1987. A few voters were, as it is termed, “registered out” of the constituencies in which they had been living for years. The motives for this reprehensible conduct are very clear. In this Committee today, however, I want to issue a warning to anyone resorting to this practice. We shall combat and eliminate this practice with all the power at our command and expose the guilty parties. Our administrative system does, in any event, have a built-in safety valve to counter this, and voters are requested to take careful note of the data contained in the registration notices the department sends to them.

On several occasions in the past hon members of Parliament have been compromised by the entries they themselves have made in the voters’ rolls. Hon members will know that special provision is made for them in the Electoral Act. To remove any doubt from hon members’ minds about where they should register, or about the concept “normal place of residence”, this afternoon I placed an information document in every hon member’s pigeon-hole setting out the statutory provisions for him very clearly. I trust that members will find this useful and will obtain clarity on their own positions in time, if necessary.

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

Mr Chairman, I want to associate myself with the hon the Minister as regards his good wishes to the hon member for Innesdal, who has been appointed as our ambassador to Holland. We hope that he will be successful and that he will fare well. On our side of the House we bid him farewell with heavy hearts because he was a faithful ally in the past and probably one of the greatest canvassers for the CP. We are sorry to have to bid him farewell. Congratulations to the hon member for Umlazi too who came to Parliament with me 12 years ago. I think he is most competent and I am sure he will provide the committee with very good leadership.

†I also wish to extend a word of congratulations to the hon members Mr Lockey and Mr Seedat on their appointment as chairmen of their study groups. I am sure we will co-operate in the manner that we have done in the past.

*The hon the Minister started speaking about the election, the great deal of work and the mistakes which had to be put right, etc. I want to ask him right at the outset whether he does not think that the time has come for the Government to stop playing the old cat and mouse game and tell us when an election is to be held. The NP knows, and we all know, that it is 13 September. We even know when the voters’ rolls are to close, etc. Nevertheless this is a game now. The hon the Minister also spoke here about the importance of the campaign on changes of address, on which we want to congratulate him, but, as it is so essential to put the voters’ rolls right, why can the hon the Minister not tell us today at least when the voters’ rolls close?

*An HON MEMBER:

But you know!

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

Yes, I know but does the hon member perhaps know? I shall tell the hon member. The date is 31 May. We should like this cat and mouse game to be something of the past. We all know what the dates are. Announce them and get it over with. We support the hon the Minister fully as regards fighting fictitious changes of address. We consider this a disgraceful practice.

We should like to thank the hon the Minister as the political head of this department for a very pleasant year. He is a person who does not permit politics to figure very strongly. Our relationship with him is very good. His door is always open to us and we want to thank him for a very pleasant year. This also applies to the officials. They are competent and reliable. I should like to mention the name of Mr Attie Tredoux today. We liaise with him regularly as regards elections. We also liaise frequently with Mr Dirk Vermeulen in Pretoria. It is difficult to express what these two officials do for us. I want to wish the hon the Minister and his officials everything of the best. They will really need it in the new year because an election lies ahead.

This brings me to the single theme which I want to argue today, that is delimitation. I want to appeal very, very seriously to the hon the Minister today—and this appeal has been made a number of times by hon members of the CP— first to carry out delimitation, in the light of the chaotic condition in which electoral divisions are at present, before a general election is held. I am making this appeal for two reasons. Firstly, my request is directly in the interests of democracy and, secondly, it is definitely still practicable and feasible to carry out delimitation before the election.

An analysis of the voters’ rolls made available to us on 31 December 1988 really makes a mockery of democracy. It is proof of the chaotic conditions which prevail at present. According to these voters’ lists there are 3 139 699 White voters in the RSA who have to vote in 166 electoral divisions. That is 18 914 voters per electoral division on average. The nation-wide quota is therefore 18 914 per electoral division. The democratic principle of fair representation demands that all electoral divisions in the country should be delimited as nearly as possible according to this quota. I am sure nobody will pick a quarrel with me on this. We acknowledge the exceptions of loading and deloading and area electoral divisions but this does not account for distortion.

I should now like to give hon members an indication of the chaos which prevails by arguing the critical position of the Transvaal in the light of those electoral divisions. With its 1 685 271 voters the Transvaal has 53,7% of South Africa’s White voters. I now want to show hon members the disadvantage that the Transvaal experiences. Firstly, 60 of the 76 electoral divisions in the Transvaal have more votes than the national quota. In other words, approximately 80% of Transvaal electoral divisions have more votes and more voters than the national quota countrywide. Secondly, Transvaal votes have to be compared with the vote values of the other provinces to see whether these values correspond as they should. Seen against the Cape Province, the Transvaal on average has 6 950 more voters per electoral division than the Cape Province. Seen against the Cape Province, every Transvaal electoral division therefore has 6 950 wasted or superfluous votes. In other words, these votes are valueless. If one then multiplies the 76 Transvaal electoral divisions by this, there are—calculated on this basis—528 200 worthless Transvaal votes as against the Cape.

*An HON MEMBER:

You hate the Cape!

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

No, I am very fond of the Cape. I agree with Sir Francis Drake and the hon member that the Cape is “the fairest Cape of them all”. If one could transfer the worthless votes of the Transvaal physically to the Cape Province, it would give the Cape an extra 35 Cape seats according to the Cape quota. If one then takes into account that the Cape Province has 56 seats, the extent of this serious distortion really strikes one.

If one compares the Transvaal with the Free State, there are 5 274 worthless Transvaal votes on average per electoral division. This is a total of 400 824 which is equal to 24 Free State seats. The Free State has only 14 seats. If one compares the Transvaal with Natal, the Transvaal has 3 913 more voters per electoral division than Natal. This is a total of 297 388 worthless Transvaal votes as against the voting power of Natal, or 16 additional Natal seats.

If one were to compare the Transvaal with the rest of South Africa and therefore make the rest of South Africa one area with its 90 seats, the rest of South Africa would have an average quota of only 16 160. Against the Transvaal quota of 22 175, the rest of South Africa would then have 6 015 voters fewer per electoral division than the Transvaal. According to this formula, the Transvaal has 457 140 worthless votes as against the rest of South Africa and, calculated in vote values, this means an additional 28 seats.

The third way in which the Transvaal is put at a disadvantage is related to the number of seats allocated to the Transvaal now and the number of seats which ought to be allocated to that province. The Transvaal has 76 seats now and should have 89, which means 13 extra seats. The Cape Province has 56 seats now but should have 11 fewer, which amounts to 45 seats. Natal has 20 seats and should have 19 while the Free State has 14 seats and should have 13.

This shows beyond all doubt that the Cape Province enjoys a great advantage over the Transvaal and that the Transvaal, which is South Africa’s largest province, is put at a drastic disadvantage. I can draw many more comparisons but it is clear from these few examples that democracy is being treated with the utmost contempt because of the present chaos. If an election were to take place regardless of the current state of affairs, it would undoubtedly be a violation of democracy.

The question which I want to discuss is whether something can still be done now. The answer is simply: Of course a delimitation for the House of Assembly can still take place before the next general election. We need not vote until the beginning of March of next year. It is only the middle of April now. There is nothing to prevent the Government from announcing the Delimitation Commission today, which could then carry out the delimitation calmly for the rest of the year. We could then vote on 2 March or thereabouts without any problems. The Coloureds and Indians can put their case on delimitation themselves.

The other question is whether the Constitution can still be amended to rectify the distorted position of seats among the provinces. In that respect the Government has made a rod for its own back. It cannot rectify the distortion in the number of seats among the provinces now because it passed a Constitution which it cannot get out of now and against which we warned it.

This brings us to the position today that we have a chaotic system of allocating voters about which the Government can do something but does not want to. I now want to know from the Government why it does not want to delimit. There is sufficient time left and it is extremely urgent. Hon members must pardon me for saying this but it is clear that the reason the Government does not want to delimit is that it wants to get an election over as soon as possible before the chaos which is lying ahead in South West Africa later this year hits it.

*Comdt C J DERBY-LEWIS:

And the economy.

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

There are other reasons too like the deterioration in the economy. Why does the Government not carry out delimitation if this is not the reason?

*Mr C J VAN R BOTHA:

Boksburg!

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

The hon member need only read today’s newspaper to see that Boksburg has no effect; on the contrary, we will turn Boksburg around and then people like the hon member will be surprised at the amount of damage the NP will suffer because of the hypocritical and dishonest policy which it pursues and the fact that it is pointing its finger at us.

Another point in support of my request for delimitation is that the hon the State President’s own reasons given on television recently support my case strongly. He made it very clear that an election could not actually take place before delimitation had been carried out.

The new hon leader-in-chief of the NP also put forward reasons in the House on 12 March. He admitted that there was a great problem and tried to get out of it with very feeble explanations. As far as we are concerned, he did not extricate himself from that problem. It is really vital that delimitation take place.

In conclusion, in the light of the chaotic condition of the voters’ rolls and the urgent necessity for us to have equal vote values in the country, because there really has to be democracy, because there is adequate time left and because in all fairness delimitation is called for, I want to request the Government first to reconsider its plans and carry out delimitation for the House of Assembly before an election is held. We appeal very seriously to the Government in this connection.

*Mr D LOCKEY:

Mr Chairman, it is a great pleasure for me to take part today in the debate on the Home Afairs Vote as the spokesman of the majority party in the House of Representatives, the Labour Party. I hope that we shall co-operate well with the hon member for Umlazi and the hon the Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that the activities of this department go smoothly in Parliament in future.

In commencing my speech I want to wish the hon Director-General of this department everything of the best on his retirement later this year. I hope that he will enjoy this well-earned rest thoroughly and that many successful days lie ahead for him on the golf courses at George.

Today I want to concentrate on various aspects which fall within the ambit of this department. I want to get to the question of group and individual rights as they are set out inter alia in the Population Registration Act of 1950. As regards the definition of words in this Act, there are a number of matters to which we object. Firstly, there is the definition of “Coloured”. The Act reads that it is a person who is not White and not Black. This negative definition of that specific population group is unacceptable to us and that is why the term “Coloured” is unacceptable to the vast majority of people of my community. We choose to be South Africans and not Coloureds.

The definition of the word “White” does not say much either. The Act reads that a White is a person who looks like a White and is accepted as a White by other Whites. The ridiculous aspect of racial classification according to this Act is proved even more clearly by the fact that more than 300 people of colour became White in 1987. It is very clear that this Act in its current form can never be the basis for building a more acceptable constitutional system for South Africa.

I understand the problematical aspect concerning the protection of cultural groups. My party believes that the rights of the individual are predominant. It would be completely wrong, however, to ignore the existence of cultural groups in a future dispensation. I think that it is a gross generalisation to say that South Africa consists only of individuals. Similarly it is an absolute untruth to say that South Africa consists only of rigid racial groups.

The solution to this specific problem is that in future a mechanism should be sought which protects bona fide cultural groups without such protection being carried out to the detriment of the civil rights of fellow South Africans or that it will take place at the expense of their human dignity. The solution to most of our political and social problems is that every well-meaning South African should assist in building a common nationhood which should inspire us all to put our country first.

I am aware that the South African Law Commission has been investigating the subject of group and human rights since 23 April 1986. This investigation covers inter alia the definition and protection of group rights in a new constitutional dispensation as well as the possible extension of individual rights and the role which our courts should play in this connection. I hope that the hon the Minister will address this matter in legislation in the department in the near future. The HSRC also made a valuable contribution in their inquiry into inter-group relations in South Africa as part of this specific subject.

I want to get to a second subject, that is media relations. According to programme 6, this department is responsible among other duties for the promotion of good media relations and the application of media control. Over the past decade serious erosion has taken place in the sphere of the freedom of the Press in particular. The freedom of the Press is fundamental in maintaining a democratic system. It is fundamental in maintaining a fair and just order for every citizen of a country. The freedom of the Press is fundamental in maintaining clean administration in every country. The Press should be able to criticise the State and question its decisions.

Freedom of the Press is also fundamental to balanced and just administration of justice in a country. The Press should be permitted without inhibition to put a situation to our judges in which for instance political offences are committed so that they may take the de facto situation into account in their administration of justice as regards political detainees in particular.

A disturbing aspect of our internal situation is the increasing degree to which the erosion of the principle of the rule of law is taking place. Many of our media restrictions and regulations are regulations and proclamations which are promulgated unilaterally like decrees by the executive authority without the agreement of Parliament as the supreme legislative authority of the country.

I also want to dwell briefly on the entire question of Islamic marriages. I want to ask the hon the Minister what progress has been made in the inquiry of the SA Law Commission into the validation of Islamic marriages within our legal system. The fact that these marriages are not recognised within our legal system creates innumerable problems especially as regards the status of the Islamic wife.

I next want to spend a short while on the coming general election. The Budget does not provide specifically for the approximately R8-R10 million which the department will require to finance a coming general election. I should like to ask the hon the Minister how this matter is to be handled. I should also like to request the hon the Minister to pilot the Elections and Identification Amendment Bill through Parliament as rapidly as possible in order to enable the officials of the department to make the necessary adjustments before the general election.

Without discussing the details of the Bill concerned, I want to say that the proposed legislation contains various simplified measures which will facilitate the task of political parties considerably. It will also mean greater convenience to the voter.

I want to spend a few moments on clause 11 of the Bill. In terms of clause 11 voters’ particulars will in future be furnished only to an authorised representative of a political party. Any other person will have to pay for this information. We welcome this clause but we want to ask whether these will only be the authorised representatives of registered political parties so that we shall not be saddled with “nuisance” political parties again who are also able to acquire this information free of charge.

I wish to express my thanks to all officials of the department who have supplied hundreds of thousands of identity documents under considerable pressure to Black citizens in particular since 1986.

In conclusion, I also want to thank the former Chairman of the Joint Committee on Home Affairs, the hon member for Innesdal, for the work which he did on this committee as well as on the Joint Committee on the Electoral Act. We shall remember this hon member as one of the NP members who fought unceasingly to keep the torch of reform alight, even in very difficult times. He also played an important part in the fact that we have an identity document without a racial code for all South African citizens today. We hope that he will continue his selfless work for South Africa in his new capacity as our Ambassador to the Netherlands.

*Mr C J VAN R BOTHA:

Mr Chairman, it is a singular honour to act as Chairman of the Joint Committee on Home Affairs and as my party’s chief spokesman for this department here today. Although I very much enjoyed my work as chairman of my previous two committees, and gained valuable knowledge and experience from them, Home Affairs has always occupied a very important place in my life as a politician. I think I am speaking here on behalf of many other hon colleagues. Since my provincial leader is also the responsible Minister, it is doubly an honour for me to appear here in this capacity.

Please just permit me to link up with the expressions of appreciation, from various quarters, for my predecessor, the hon member for Innesdal, who occupied this post with distinction for almost five years, since the inception of this committee. Since he is now venturing into the diplomatic field, I want to wish him the same measure of success in his new career.

I also want to associate myself with the previous speaker and convey my best wishes to the Director-General of the department.

†At the same time I want to congratulate the hon member Mr Lockey and the hon member Mr Seedat on their respective appointments as chairmen of their House Committees.

The coming general election will mean that this wide-ranging omnibus department will also become one of the busiest in the family of State departments, handling an election for three Chambers of Parliament simultaneously for the first time in history.

*Let me now just come back, for a moment, to the hon member for Overvaal and his plea in regard to delimitation. We really did think the hon member would appreciate the fact that we were saving him one more effort at moving house. It seems to me, however, he does not appreciate it.

Comdt C J DERBY-LEWIS:

[Inaudible.]

*Mr C J VAN R BOTHA:

I do want to say, however, that the hon member is playing a dangerous little game if he is basing his entire plea for delimitation on playing one province off against another. After all, the principle that votes in this country have different so-called values is nothing new; it dates all the way back to 1910—or is the hon member for Overvaal, together with his moving plea for more seats for the Transvaal at the expense of the Cape, also going to advocate that urban and rural constituencies should have an equal number of votes? Surely that is embodied in the plea. [Interjections.] Is he now going to tell the rural constituencies that they must have a lesser degree of representation in Parliament? The real reason for the hon member for Overvaal’s plea is that he is too scared of an election this year. That is the simple fact of the matter. Now he is trying all kinds of other excuses in an attempt to side-step that possibility.

We on this side of the House are well aware of the fact that the Transvaal does have a claim to more seats, and we know that attention will be given to that aspect at the proper time. We have three Houses in this Parliament, however, and we must choose an opportunity that will make it possible to have a delimitation for all three Houses.

†I do not propose to deal any further with election matters today. Other speakers on this side will do so. I only propose to touch on the election in so far as the voters’ rolls are based on the population register, and to record our satisfaction at the remarkable progress made by the department in recording the details of all South Africans on this register. It is clear from the percentages for Whites, Coloureds and Asiatics that such high percentages have been reached that the elections can indeed be a reliable test of voter opinion. In particular, however, the progress made in respect of the registration of Blacks must be noted with appreciation. The report mentions a figure of 6 731 000, or 56,67% of the eligible Black population. However, I believe the figure is now nearer to the 8 million mark. Therefore the day cannot be far off when all South Africans can be included in the register.

In the preceding page of the report reference is also made to some 867 cases of race reclassification during the year. The previous speaker also made mention of this, and of the fact that the largest number, namely 347 of them, were reclassified from Coloured to White. In view of the repeated pleas in Parliament and elsewhere for groups to be formed in future more on the basis of free association than that of prescriptive law, it is important to note that heredity or descent has in recent times gradually been wholly replaced by appearance and association, with the accent on the latter. This means that applications for reclassification may be favourably considered if applicants can show that they have found acceptance in new communities, and that the new communities have completely and permanently replaced any previous ones, with the exception of family ties, which may be maintained.

Freedom of association coupled with the concomitant freedom not to associate, therefore form the basis of reclassification. It is pertinent to quote the view of Mr Justice de Vos Hugo who is highly regarded as an expert in this field. He says the position of the person in the community must be established and his former position in the other community terminated to such an extent that a clear and, for the foreseeable future, irrevocable transfer can be recorded. Any transitional stage must have elapsed and his position in the new community must have been established.

The Classification Board has adopted a set of criteria which are all based on the principle of association. An applicant must be accepted as a friend and neighbour by his community, must mix socially with members of the group concerned and be accepted by them without question. He must have adopted the lifestyle, behaviour, language and accent of the group, and be employed in the group willingly and not on sufferance.

The applicant must be able to appear in public and on public conveyances without suspicion, have attended schools and/or universities open to the group and enjoy the unquestioned right to enrol his own children in such institutions. He must maintain personal contact only with the members of his family from his original community. Even immigrants who are initially classified on appearance only, are re-evaluated after one year’s residence on the basis of their voluntary association.

*To get back to the very high percentage of entries in the population register, in the report hon members will note that the registration figure for Whites and Chinese is more than 100%—104,04% and 104,13% respectively. According to the Central Statistical Service the reasons for that are threefold.

Firstly there has possibly been too low a projection of population-group figures, secondly certain deaths have not been reported and, thirdly, as the hon the Minister subsequently pointed out, the departures of some emigrants have not been reported.

That is not, however, what I want to focus attention on in the second instance. I want to focus hon members’ attention on the fact that this is but one of the numerous vital studies undertaken by the CSS, the Central Statistical Service. In the annual report there is a detailed reference to more than 60 analyses, and even that represents but a small portion of the total number of studies to which reference is made in the service’s guide to users.

This service is probably one of the most important, but also one of the least acknowledged of the department’s campaigns. Just as the world moved through an industrial society phase from the middle of the 19th century to the middle of the 20th century, we are now in the midst of what John Nesbit has called the information society in his book Megatrends. This is an era in which statistical data have become the building blocks of a whole series of human activities. One need only think of how the physical transmission of money in banking and finance has made way for the exchange of information about financial transactions without money ever having to change hands.

Be that as it may, since November 1986 the CSS has been incorporated in this department. It is also fitting that the service has specifically been allocated to a department that has the closest possible ties with the co-existence of First World and Third World components in our society. This is one of the factors in our country that makes the availability of reliable statistics so important.

The truth is that this increasingly important role that the service plays in furnishing data is complicated by an ever-increasing resistance among the respondents on the one hand and the development of a private sector information industry, of which opinion polls are but one facet, on the other. There is consequently a growing problem of conflicting interests.

This is where the CSS could play an important role as an intermediary, and does so too. On the one hand the service enjoys a reputation of trying to meet the reasonable needs of consumers and, on the other, there is great appreciation for the service’s efforts to relieve the burden on respondents, and particularly the smaller businessman.

For this reason, and also because the CSS, as a Government institution, guarantees the confidentiality of its sources, and because the authority of the State lends credibility to the CSS’s statistics, it is clear that the State’s involvement in the service is fundamental and vital to the value of this service to the community. As far as I am concerned, it therefore seems unlikely that this aspect of the State’s activities will ever be privatised.

Owing to the growing needs and the greater knowledgeableness or statistical literacy of interested users of official statistics, there is another very important question I want to raise. It relates to the question marks attaching, in certain quarters, to certain official economic statistics.

Firstly, there appears to be an effort to cast suspicion on the reliability of the consumer price index and the official inflation rate. It frequently happens that the accuracy and reliability of the consumer price index and the inflation rate, which is derived from it, is questioned by certain uninformed individuals. Normally, however, this is based on misconceptions and misunderstandings, and although one appreciates the fact that the man in the street can be subject to such misconceptions, it is normally not a problem to sketch the true state of affairs. In contrast no one has ever tried—at least not in the past few years—to produce specific proof that the index is not a true reflection of the levels and changes in the prices of consumer goods and services. It is therefore not surprising that such an effort on the part of an apparently informed and allegedly knowledgeable person in the 26 January 1989 issue of Business Day elicited a great deal of interest. In this article a writer, a former professor of applied mathematics, alleged that the inflation rate was in the vicinity of 24%, rather than the published 12,5%.

On 27 January 1989 the same newspaper published the Central Statistical Service’s comments refuting the allegations, whilst Rapport of 29 January 1989 published related comments from which it became apparent that without exception a whole string of recognised economists endorsed the Central Statistical Service’s activities and standpoint on this. On 20 March the head of the Central Statistical Service had an opportunity, on the TV programme Netwerk, to reply to questions about the reliability of the consumer price index and the inflation rate.

Secondly, official economic statistics, in particular those relating to national accounts, are questioned in certain quarters because they are only based on the formal sector of the economy. The informal sector, or the statistically unrecorded sector, is regarded as being so important, however, as a creator of revenue and job opportunities, that a soundly based statistical survey of the extent of that manifestation has become necessary. Again, as is apparent from the annual report, in this regard the Central Statistical Service conducted a pilot survey in the PWV area and, according to information received, the findings will shortly be made public. When all is said and done, however, the critics ought to bear in mind that it is no simple task at all to carry out a statistical survey in a field in which, in essence, there is thus far no statistical record and in which it has thus far not been possible to have a statistical record.

In the time at my disposal I could not highlight more than two of the large number of activities of this important Government department. Other speakers will dwell on other responsibilities and reply to criticism levelled at the running of the department, in this way doing as much justice as possible, in a discussion of such a Vote, to a department whose activities cover a very wide field.

Mr Y I SEEDAT:

Mr Chairman, allow me to join my colleagues in complimenting the hon member for Innesdal, who at one stage, I remember, was likened to Eddie Eckstein, because of his joviality. We have always said and still maintain that the success of the Joint Committee on Home Affairs was due largely to the manner in which the committee meetings were chaired by the hon member for Innesdal.

We are confident that the hon member will do a great job for South Africa. It is not going to be a bed of roses, but knowing the man he is, and knowing him to be what he is, we know he will give of his best for the sake of South Africa. We wish him well. As I said on an earlier occasion, Parliament’s loss will be South Africa’s gain in totality. At the same time I wish to congratulate the hon member for Umlazi. We have served together on this particular committee since the inception of the tricameral system. I have found him to be very knowledgeable and understanding and I am certain that in the hon member for Umlazi we have an able successor to the hon member for Innesdal. I can assure him of the continued support of the House of Delegates in respect of progressive legislation.

Whilst on the subject of congratulations, I want to congratulate my hon colleague from the House of Representatives, Mr Lockey. I know that he has always given and will continue to give of his best.

The report before us, supplied by the Department of Home Affairs, is, as usual, a very concise one and yet a report that I would term an encyclopedia of the department’s activities and the services it renders. It is not perhaps as glossy as those reports that emanate from other departments, but I want to tell the hon the Minister and his officials that it is classy enough.

Lest I forget or run out of time, I want to now place on record the appreciation and thanks of the Muslim community to the Directorate of Publications for its favourable decision in declaring undesirable the publication Satanic Verses and the film The last temptation of Christ. This directorate, together with its committees and appeal board, renders a service to South Africa that goes largely unnoticed. A country needs a good government and a sound economy. Together with that a nation needs good, clean and sound morals. Members of this committee are trying to do just that. They are trying to keep the filth away from us and in the process ensuring a respectable society.

The one aspect that I want to address is the question of study permits. On page 33 of the report, under 7.3—Study Permits, one reads, and I quote:

Foreign undergraduate students are, as a rule, not admitted to South African State-subsidised tertiary educational institutions, except when the student’s circumstances and his reasons for wishing to study in South Africa merit it particularly.

The needs of a people surely do exist, but circumstances change. I find this very interesting, because in a letter that I received from the department, and I want to quote this, it says:

I have to inform you that where there is an existing need for the establishment of an Islamic institution in a neighbouring country it is clearly in the interests of the Islamic community concerned to provide for the establishment of such institution in that country. Obvious considerations are the cohesion and common interests of the Islamic community concerned and the economic saving of meeting the need for religious instruction at home.
Foreign children are admitted to the RSA for study purposes only in cases where special circumstances prevail. In all fairness it cannot be expected of the RSA to provide in the need for religious instruction existing in communities outside its borders.

Normally I would refer this item to the hon the Minister as an administrative matter, but I think it has to do with policy.

I want to draw the hon the Minister’s attention to the fact that students from neighbouring countries who intend to come to South Africa to study at so-called religious institutions are not a burden to the State, neither are they a burden to the taxpayer. These are fully privately funded organisations. These are not institutions that are looking for handouts from the Government at all.

If one has to take the contents of this letter into account and that which is contained in the report and draw a rightful conclusion, I submit that it is those students who come from abroad to study at tertiary educational institutions that have to be stopped, and not students who come here and pay for their own education. Sometimes they are assisted by friends and family who live here. However, I want to assure the hon the Minister that not one cent of taxpayers’ money is involved. I therefore want the hon the Minister to rethink this issue.

I agree with the writer of this letter that there is a need to establish institutions in neighbouring countries. Such a need exists, but one has to look at the circumstances that prevail in those countries. South Africa and Mozambique entered into the Nkomati Accord. Surely this is one way of showing that we are genuinely desirous to assist the people of Mozambique.

I briefly want to refer to the delimitation. This issue was also discussed by the hon member for Overvaal. We from the House of Delegates would have liked to have held an election after delimitation had taken place. We have problems with voter movement, especially in the Durban area. Phoenix, for example, has a population of nearly 200 000 people, with approximately 68 000 potential voters. They are represented by only one MP. There is only one MP who represents that number of voters. It is just not practical. I do not know how we are going to overcome this problem. The hon member for Overvaal has made a suggestion, but we are not going to commit ourselves by saying that we go along with that, because then we will be told by our detractors that we are afraid of an election. We are ready and able. Whenever the hon the State President calls for an election, we will go for it.

Mr S S VAN DER MERWE:

Mr Chairman, I would like to join other hon members who have congratulated certain people who have been elected. I also join them in the thanks that they have extended to members of the departmental staff. May I add just a particular word of congratulations to the hon member for Innesdal. I wish him luck and I hope that he will enjoy his job. I think he will now have to buy himself a new coat—he knows what I am talking about! A particular word of thanks is due to Mr Attie Tredoux and Mr Jack van der Merwe who have really made our lives a lot easier here at Parliament when we have had to deal with complaints from our constituents and other people.

I have on a number of previous occasions in this House called upon the Government to make provision in the law for the granting of residential rights and citizenship in some cases to the spouses of South African citizens and permanent residents. I would have thought that this was a reasonable request. In many civilised countries it is standard practice that when one of their citizens marries a foreigner, that foreigner then acquires the right of residence in the country concerned, either automatically or on a basis of much less stringent conditions than would normally apply in respect of other foreigners.

The United States, for instance, is a country which, I believe, has very stringent immigration laws. It is a country where immigration and the composition of its society is a contentious matter. It is also a country which is a very popular destination for immigrants—legal and illegal— particularly from the Caribbean and South American states.

The legal position of spouses of American citizens is very clear. They have very specific preferential rights. If this were not the case, it would mean that a male American citizen, for example, would have to subject his choice of marriage partner to the United States Government in order to make sure that he would be able to have his wife living with him in his own country once he was married. That, in essence, is the dilemma. If one gets married to a foreigner one is not certain that that person will be able to share one’s life in one’s own country.

In South Africa this situation has not been properly addressed as yet. I believe it has been dealt with to some extent administratively, but certainly not legally. The position is still that if one of our citizens marries a citizen of a foreign country there is no guarantee that the couple will be able to live together in South Africa. In fact, there is no suggestion in law that preferential treatment is afforded such a spouse, should he or she wish to settle in South Africa. This clearly does not reflect a healthy regard for the institution of marriage. I am not suggesting that it is intentionally so, but that is the consequence.

I have no doubt that we must follow a strict but fair immigration policy in South Africa in order to protect our own citizens. I do not believe, however, that something as fundamental as the choice of a marriage partner should be subject to the discretion of the State authorities.

It is significant to read some of the representations that the mainline churches in South Africa made to the parliamentary committee dealing with the scrapping of the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act and section 16 of the Immorality Act a couple of years ago. Mr Chairman, you were a member of that committee and you may remember. The point was made very strongly in those representations that the choice of a marriage partner is a very fundamental matter with very important religious and moral implications. For that reason the argument went that the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act was unacceptable. I would argue that—in a more indirect sense, admittedly—immigration laws which effectively interfere in a fairly traumatic way with the cohabitation between a man and his wife, have the same effect.

Sceptics have occasionally suggested that this sort of special treatment for a spouse of a South African citizen or permanent resident may be abused. I concede that to a limited extent perhaps, but I would suggest that the scale of such abuse would be so small that, given the fundamental importance of the basic situation, it hardly deserves consideration.

Hon members would have noticed that in this connection the case of Mr Ionel Stefan has drawn some attention very recently. As hon members may have read in the Press, Mr Stefan was a Rumanian ship’s engineer who met a South African woman last year when his vessel was laid up for repairs in Cape Town harbour for a two-month period. Mr Stefan developed a relationship with the woman and decided that he wanted to marry her. He discussed the implications of such a step with some of his fellow crewmen and came to the conclusion that it would not be possible for him to be allowed to emigrate from his native Rumania and settle in South Africa in the natural course of immigration procedures. I am not suggesting that Mr Stefan necessarily made an objective and correct decision, but that was certainly his impression.

He was motivated in his view by, amongst others, the fact that he is a well-qualified engineer with a university degree and that in the nature of things East-bloc countries do not easily part with individuals of that quality and do not easily allow them to emigrate from their native countries.

When Mr Stefan’s ship returned to Cape Town for repairs in early January, he deserted his ship, married the South African woman and cast himself upon the tender mercy of our local immigration authorities. In my view the response to Mr Stefan’s plight was quite harsh and it was made clear to him at a very early stage that he would not be allowed to remain here and that if he still wished to reside in South Africa he would have to apply to immigrate to this country via the normal channels.

“Normal channels” in the case of Mr Stefan would imply that he had to make contact somehow with a South African mission outside his own country because there is no South African mission in his country, apply for the right to immigrate, await the decision of the South African Government and then finally hope that he would be allowed to leave Rumania, which is in itself a highly unlikely event.

Mr Stefan was eventually repatriated to his own country where he is convinced that he will have to face a jail sentence for deserting his ship. In the meantime his South African wife is expecting his baby and there is little chance that they will ever see one another again. I suggest that these events do not give credit to our society. Clearly the situation is far from satisfactory and in urgent need of attention.

Quite irrespective of the administrative attitude to this particular incident to which I am referring, I really do believe that it is necessary that we address the legal implications of this situation as well. We must give recognition in our laws that if a man chooses to marry a woman or a woman chooses to marry a man and one of them is a South African citizen, such a South African citizen must somehow be able to rely on the co-operation of his government to assist him in having his wife residing in this country alongside him. I do not think it is unreasonable—I think it is a fundamental and a very important matter. I hope the hon the Minister will give it his urgent attention.

*I would like to mention only two other points. The hon member for Overvaal referred to delimitation. I also want to object to that. I realise that a government has the right to handle these matters as it likes, but in this regard they are going much too far. The Government’s interests are put above the national interest and the interests of democracy when it comes to the way it handles matters like delimitation. I would even go further and say that it also concerns matters like a proper registration system and the upkeep of voters’ rolls in this country.

I refer once again to the fact that there was a unanimous recommendation by a standing committee that it should be ensured on a door-to-door basis that South Africans are registered at the right places as voters. The Government rejected this. I once again want to protest against this. We cannot simply ignore this matter because the Government finds it inconvenient for some reason or other to give it its attention. [Time expired.]

*Mr W T KRITZINGER:

Mr Chairman, to begin with, I want to convey my sincere congratulations to the hon member for Innesdal on his appointment as ambassador in the Netherlands. I know what the hon member is capable of, and have no doubt that he will be a brilliant success for South Africa abroad. My best wishes go with him and his wife.

I should also like to avail myself of the opportunity to congratulate the hon member for Umlazi sincerely on his appointment as chairman of our joint committee in the place of the hon member for Innesdal. The hon member has been making a valuable contribution in debates about this department for many years, and this is definitely a case of having the right man in the right place. I wish him everything of the best. I also want to convey my congratulations to the hon members Mr Lockey and Mr Seedat.

This department has a very broad field of activity. One need only page through the annual report to be impressed by its scope. On the very first page I read under the caption “Purpose and Functions”:

The purpose of the department is … to protect and serve the interests of the inhabitants of the Republic of South Africa as individuals in respect of their status, identity and specific rights and powers.

One could just as well have added “from the cradle to the grave”, because this department takes cognisance of one’s birth and registers one’s death. Throughout one’s life, one’s name is recorded by the department, one is included in the population register, one is issued with an identity document, and when one turns 18 and there is an election, the department ensures that one’s name is put on the voters’ roll. The department also makes arrangements for one to cast one’s vote. If one wants to travel abroad, this department issues one with a passport and travel documents. The department also exercises control over people who leave or enter the country. In the latter connection it should be mentioned that in addition to the processing of applications for permanent settlement in South Africa and the submission thereof to the Immigrants’ Selection Board, the department also undertakes recruitment campaigns abroad in order to attract skilled workers in those professions in which South Africa has a shortage of workers.

It goes without saying that the tracking down, prosecution and removal from the country of illegal aliens, makes up a very important part of this department’s activities. In terms of the emergency regulations with reference to the media, the department keeps a watchful eye on publications that can promote a revolutionary climate in the country. By means of the Directorate: Publications, the department exercises control over publications in general, films and videos, public entertainment and television material.

The department renders a central statistical service to South Africa. As if that is not enough, the department also operates a Government printing works. I should like to associate myself with those who have expressed appreciation for the way in which the department performs its task. Many thanks to Mr Gerrie van Zyl, the Director-General, and everyone who assists him—there are so many people who assist him that I cannot go into detail and mention names. Since we are on the eve of a general election, we can merely wish them everything of the best in that regard. Everyone knows what enormous demands an election makes on the department and its officials.

With regard to the election, hon members must permit me to make certain comments about a few related matters. In the first place I should like to say that I agree that it is a pity that the election cannot take place after a new delimitation of constituencies. It is definitely true that a significant imbalance in the number of voters has come about between certain urban and rural constituencies. Although my province, the Cape Province, does not experience this to the same extent as the Transvaal, we also have our cases. With reference to the House of Assembly, I can mention the constituency of Durbanville which has 25 200 voters and Prieska which has the relatively low number of 8 400 voters. With reference to the House of Representatives, Mitchell’s Plain has almost 40 000 voters. Dal-josaphat has a relatively low number of 8 700 voters.

I want to tell the hon members for Overvaal and Green Point, who are whining so about delimitation, that they must not be so over-sensitive, because South Africa is not the only country with this problem. In the more densely populated industrial areas in England, there are constituencies with as many as 120 000 voters whereas there are constituencies in the Scottish rural areas with as few as 30 000 voters. That is a world of difference. In addition the British do not see this difference in the number of voters as a mistake that has to be rectified. That is how they have demarcated the constituencies, and that is how everyone accepts it. According to information I have received, that is also the situation in Australia.

In the second place I should like to express my thanks to the hon the Minister for the submission of the Elections and Identification Amendment Bill to Parliament. As hon members have heard, the Joint Committee on the Electoral Act gave in-depth attention to the streamlining of the existing electoral system for a period of two years, and we should like the amendments to come into operation before the next general election.

Of course we shall have an opportunity to discuss the amending Bill shortly, and I do not want to discuss it in too much detail today. I should like to say, however, that I am convinced that we have succeeded in attaining certain important objectives with this legislation.

In the first place it smoothes the way for a more comprehensive and updated voters’ roll in that we are also going to involve local authorities in collecting changes of address as the British do. The incomplete voters’ rolls are mainly a result of the fact that people do not give notice of their changes of address. It goes without saying that if a new resident in an area is requested or told by the municipality to give details of his whole family before his water and electricity supply are connected, and that information is fed into the central address register, we shall have a much more comprehensive and up to date voters’ roll.

The British go much further than we intend to with this amending Bill, in that the responsibility for drawing up, updating and even printing the voters’ rolls has all been transferred to the local authorities. In our case, however, this remains the department’s responsibility.

Unfortunately these amendments are too late to have any influence on our voters’ rolls for the coming election. We are convinced, however, that once the Act is in operation, and local authorities are involved as envisaged in the legislation, we shall have an enormous improvement in the comprehensiveness of our rolls in the years ahead.

What about the coming election, however? Are the voters’ rolls really in such a poor condition? One could say yes and one could say no.

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

Typical.

*Mr W T KRITZINGER:

If one says yes, it is not because the people are not registered; everyone knows that the voters’ rolls are compiled from the population register, and one reads on page 13 of the annual report that 94%— the hon the Minister gave the figures a moment ago—of the Coloureds, 95% of the Indians and more than 100% of the Whites have already been included in the central address register.

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

More than 100%.

*Mr W T KRITZINGER:

Then where is the problem? The problem is that people constantly change address and do not inform the department. As a result two, three or even more families may be registered at a specific address, whereas only one family actually lives there. The others lived there previously, but have moved, often to a totally unknown address— the so-called unlocated people. I am sure that all hon members know about the inordinate frustration and disappointment people experience if large numbers of voters turn up at the polls on election day to vote for their candidate only to find there that their names are not on the list. In nine out of 10 cases the voter is angry with one, because he believes one should have ensured that his name was transferred from his old address to his new address!

What are we to do? There are two possibilities. As in the past the parties will simply have to get stuck in themselves and register the newcomers, or rather, ensure that they get notice of their new addresses. Secondly the Government will have to launch a large-scale advertising campaign, just as they did last time. In the latter connection we are grateful to hear from the hon the Minister that an advertising campaign is already under way and that it can commence any moment. In view of the success we had with the campaign last time, I want to request that the hon the Minister and his department once again do everything in their power to make a success of it. During the previous campaign that was conducted during the months of October, November, December and January, the department dealt with almost 1,3 million applications for changes of address; in other words, it was a splendid success. In my opinion there is no reason why we cannot be just as successful this time.

A second important objective achieved by the Bill in my opinion is contained in the measures to crack down on the large-scale intimidation that took place among Coloured and Indian voters in particular during the previous general election. This is being done in the first place by restricting certain election documents that are available for public examination at present, to candidates and their representatives. This is also being done in that there will be more leeway with regard to postal and special votes. A voter who is afraid of intimidation upon being seen at the pollingstation on election day, now has an opportunity to cast a postal or special vote in advance.

What is more, if the amendments are passed, postal votes will no longer be handled by party officers and party officials. The postal vote will be posted directly to the voter, who completes his postal vote on his own and returns it to the electoral officer himself. Hon members can imagine how much time, labour and expense this will save the different party organisations. At the same time I hope we will be stopping the constant suspicion of tampering with postal votes, but more about this when the Bill itself is discussed shortly.

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! The hon member Mr Kritzinger referred to hon members who were “whining”. The hon member must withdraw that.

*Mr W T KRITZINGER:

I withdraw it, Sir.

Mr H RAMPERSADH:

Mr Chairman, during the past financial year from 1 January to 31 December 1988, 608 films and videos were imported from India, and all, without exception, were approved by the Directorate of Publications for distribution in the RSA. Needless to say, these films, which are viewed in our theatres and in our homes, have been a major influence on the cultural life of South African Indians. It has been said that cultural ties with India have alienated the local Indians from South Africa. I strongly refute this allegation. We are first and foremost South Africans and yield to no-one in our loyalty to South Africa as our only father-land.

To also be nourished by that which is noble and fine in the Indian culture, does not make us lesser South Africans but enriches our lives and makes us better South Africans. Proof of this is the contribution which our community has made to the economic well-being of South Africa over the years so that our country may become strong, viable, prosperous and free in the galaxy of nations.

Of all the various cultures and communities in South Africa, it is only the Indian community which is fortunate to receive a regular supply of films from its country of descent. The Afrikaner, comprising mainly people of Dutch, French and German descent, receives very few films from these countries. Those which are received must usually be dubbed into Afrikaans. Because of the Equity ban those of British descent are deprived of films of British origin. We have to rely largely on American films in a cultural idiom which is alien to the way of life of many South Africans.

While most other films are, in terms of the Publications Act, subject to the prior approval of a publications committee before distribution, the Directorate of Publications has decided that Indian films should be granted an exemption in terms of section 19(3) of the Publications Act. Previously Indian films were also subject to this approval but for the past two years, after a study was made of a report by a Publications Committee member who had viewed these films, an exemption has been granted by the Directorate of Publications.

This exemption was granted unconditionally to all 608 films submitted last year. With grateful pride but also with deep humility, we feel that this fact reflects on the high ethical standard of the Indian community. The sanctity of marriage and of family life is of paramount importance in our community and therefore matters like nudity, explicit sex and crude and profane language are not tolerated in our films. We pray that this may also be so in future.

We do not try to be holier than others when we contrast this unconditional approval of Indian films with other films—mostly of American origin—on the South African circuit. Approximately 10% of these films are annually found undesirable in terms of the Act and are not permitted to be screened. Of those tested, more than 50% are approved subject to certain restrictions—mostly an age restriction, or the imposition of excisions, or both. Less than half are approved unconditionally.

We do appreciate this. I would, however, like the hon the Minister to sometimes include students who participate in sports at their schools and also religious celebrations of Indian origin in the SABC slot. I am sure every Indian in South Africa appreciated the programme we had on television last year about the Diwali celebrations very much.

In conclusion I wish to pay tribute to the Indian members of the Publication Committee. These members, as hon members are aware, are appointed every three years by the hon the Minister of Home Affairs. There are members of the Indian community serving on the Publications Committee in Cape Town and Johannesburg. The bulk of the Indian committee members—22 in all—are, however, serving in Durban.

These 22 members who have a command of several Indian languages and dialects, examine the films submitted to them and then report on these films to the Directorate of Publications, which decides whether a section 19(3) exemption can be granted. The term of office for all members of the Publications Committee expires on 31 March 1990.

Applications for appointments as committee members will be called for towards the end of this year, and I appeal to learned members of the Indian community who have sound judgement to apply to be appointed as committee members in terms of section 5 of the Publications Act.

*Dr P W A MULDER:

Mr Chairman, in the first place I also want to convey, on our behalf, a special word of thanks to Mr Gerrie van Zyl who is retiring at the end of the year. I do not want to congratulate him on his retirement. I do not think that that is the point. Instead I want to say: Good luck with your retirement and may it be a peaceful one. In a lighter vein: May he never have difficulty in getting his name on the voters’ roll. I also want to convey a special word of thanks to all the officials of the entire department with whom we are acquainted and with whom we make contact from time to time. It is really a pleasure to be able to work with such people on such a professional level. Mr Van Zyl is aware that we made telephone calls to him as Director-General over weekends and that he went out of his way to help us.

In my constituency we are concerned specifically with the officials in Klerksdorp when it comes to the registration of voters, the completeness of the voters’ roll and deletions. I should also like to point out to the hon the Minister their helpfulness, kindness and willingness to solve problems whenever one approaches them.

On page 18 of the annual report hon members will see that reference is also made to the Schweizer-Reneke by-election which was held during the year under review. I referred to this last year, but I want to thank the officials involved once again. It was a difficult election in which emotions occasionally ran high. I can only testify that their conduct was absolutely impartial and objective throughout. I am also mentioning this in view of the events in Hillbrow earlier this year. However, I do not think it is even necessary for me to have to make an appeal to officials to conduct themselves as they did in Schweizer-Reneke when they made their contribution there. That has been our experience up to now and we thank them very sincerely for it.

While I am talking about the officials, I want to mention one more example of their willingness to help. I think it is also important to bring this to the attention of the hon the Minister. At one stage last year I had a problem in Makwassie. A father telephoned me on Friday evening to say that his daughter was getting married the next morning. His future in-laws had arrived and were staying with him. The farmshed had already been prepared. The meat was ready. The wedding would take place at nine o’clock. However, they had just discovered that the bridegroom was under the age of 18. The MP, who was in the Cape, had to help solve the problem immediately. I had to make a few telephone calls. I must say thank you very much. It was not my achievement, but that of the department. Everything was arranged and the wedding took place. I say thank you very much for the good service we received in that case.

*An HON MEMBER:

Legally?

*Dr P W A MULDER:

Well, they contrived to find a way out of the difficulty.

I should like to react to what previous speakers— particularly the hon member for Umlazi and the hon member Mr Kritzinger—said here in respect of delimitation. I do not think they understood the point which the CP and other parties are trying to make. What we are concerned with is not the issue of loading or deloading. Their argument comes back to loading or deloading every time, and then they consider the rural areas and say that it is unfair, because we do not want it that way. We agree with that entirely and previous speakers have also conceded that it is a logical set-up in a country like South Africa. The British example also testifies to this.

Our criticism is concerned with the fact that no delimitation is being made and that one then has things one cannot really compare. In our comparison of seats we can indicate numbers to hon members of comparable seats in the Cape and the Transvaal and then democracy eventually begins to become totally distorted. That is why the examples that were mentioned here to indicate that we are ostensibly anti-Cape or pro-Transvaal are not relevant. We are speaking solely of the facts on the table and I think the facts speak for themselves.

What I did find very strange about the attacks— particularly from the hon member for Umlazi— was that he said that the CP was afraid of delimitation and an early election, and that that was the main reason why we were now kicking up such a fuss. Now I must tell hon members that I am used to the NP not having a very long memory. Their members frequently come forward with statements. However, I have here a statement made by the hon member for Umlazi which appeared in the Cape Times of 18 January. I quote:

Senior Natal Nationalist …
*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

When was that?

*Dr P W A MULDER:

It was during this year, 18 January 1989. I quote:

Senior Natal Nationalist, Mr Con Botha, MP for Umlazi, has knocked his Transvaal and Cape colleagues for favouring an early election only months before a redelimitation. It would place the Government in an untenable position and could even result in a by-election for a parliamentary seat which had disappeared.

Then they are inclined to berate people who think that they can have it earlier. They say there are people who prefer an early election. I want to go further:

But Mr Botha, a front-bencher party information officer and former provincial secretary, strongly disagreed with them.

The newspapers feel so strongly about this issue that the Cape Times specifically made this point in an editorial on 24 January 1989. They said:

Amid all the political uncertainty occasioned by President Botha’s illness, one issue appears to have emerged with reasonable certainty. There will not be an early general election.

They then referred to the observation made by the hon the State President and said:

Umlazi MP, Mr Con Botha, has pointed out such a move would place Government in an untenable position.

I do not think we differ from that. I do not know whether we are sitting on the wrong side or whether he is. I think it makes sense. It is only logical. That is the point we were trying to make just before people started talking here about being afraid and not wanting to fight an election. We are looking forward to the election. We are going to fight it on unequal boundaries, and eventually we are going to do very well in that way and win.

I want to discuss three other matters, which I think are relevant to this department. In the first place I want to say something about citizenship. I think citizenship ought to be expensive, because it is something special. Citizenship brings many, privileges in its wake, which means that one cannot deal with it haphazardly. Sometimes I begin to worry about whether the Government always realises the implications of the way in which citizenship is sometimes dealt with, the complexities in which we can find ourselves with dual citizenship, and so on.

The question is what control we have when it comes to the granting of citizenship, and I want to refer here specifically to RSA citizenship for Black people. I do not want to spend a long time discussing the fundamental standpoint of the CP in this regard; it is a matter for a political debate. The point I am trying to make is that if we look at the population register and its degree of completeness—this was referred to quite a number of times—hon members will see that in respect of Blacks over the age of 16 years, the population register is 56% complete. Reference has already been made here to the fact that the register for Whites is 100%—actually 104% with an explanation for that—complete, for Coloureds 93% and for Indians 94%.

According to the annual report approximately two million identity documents were issued to Blacks during the year under review. To a great extent this identity document is proof of his South African citizenship. With it he is going to demand certain rights in future, and ultimately also lay claim to certain rights. Towards the end of the year under review applications were being received by the Department of Home Affairs at a rate of 5 500 per day.

My question now is: What control does the department have over Blacks making application in this way? Hon members should go to America and see whether they can acquire citizenship by merely finding somebody to testify that they are in fact living in America. As far as my information goes, and I should like the hon the Minister to clear up this point, there have been 24 cases of such applications in the vicinity of Klerksdorp where a person—an uncle or someone else— made a statement saying that the person involved had lived there, and on the basis of which such documents were issued. This works out to 1 760 per year. Then I am not even referring to the situation in the Eastern Transvaal, with the Mozambique fugitives coming over the border. I should very much like to know what the possible numbers are in that connection.

Ultimately one has the same problem with foreign Blacks who come to work in the mines in South Africa. I should very much like to know what the position is. Some of them receive a five-year contract—a business contract, work contract, work permit—which enables them to work. Subsequently they can receive a residence permit for the five years and this in turn gives him access to a certain housing benefit. With the property he has now acquired he can, as far as I know, apply for South African citizenship after five years. Is my information wrong or is this the factual situation? [Time expired.]

*Mr K D SWANEPOEL:

Mr Chairman, first of all I want to apologize for not having listened to the debate so far. It was simply impossible for me to be here from the beginning. During the past few debates the Official Opposition has referred repeatedly to the possibility of the coming election taking place without the redelimitation of electoral divisions. They then tried to imply in particular that there was an unwillingness on the part of the NP—which they immediately associated with the hon the leader of the Transvaal—to have the delimitation take place.

Apart from the fact that the Constitution requires the delimitation to take place not later than 1990, there is also a sense of urgency in the NP to delimit in a proper way. However, if one listens to hon members of the CP—I am now referring to previous debates; unfortunately I cannot refer to today’s debate—who referred to this matter last week, it is clear that they are insisting on redelimitation merely for the sake of redelimitation. There must simply be a delimitation. It is clear that the realities are not part of their arguments, and that they are definitely not taking the position of the Transvaal into consideration.

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

But you should have come to listen!

*Mr K D SWANEPOEL:

They simply want to criticise everything because redelimitation is apparently not going to take place before the coming election. When we look at the number of voters in the various provinces it is very clear that the Transvaal has moved into an overloaded constituency situation. According to the figures from the end of December the Transvaal had 1 600 000 …

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

1 000 600!

*Mr K D SWANEPOEL:

… 1 000 600 voters, the Cape had 852 577 voters, Natal had 365 237 voters and the Free State …

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

236 …

Mr K D SWANEPOEL:

… 236 624.

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! No, the hon member for Overvaal has already made his speech.

*Mr K D SWANEPOEL:

This little calculation tells one that the Transvaal has approximately 54% of the total number of voters.

According to the present delimitation the Transvaal has 76 seats, the Cape 56, Natal 20 and the Free State 14—76 seats compared with the 90 in the other provinces. Everyone will therefore agree that one has had a total distortion of the seat ratio since the previous delimitation occurred. There was a certain disparity even prior to the 1980 delimitation.

When one considers the position in the Cape, however, it is clear that they in turn have another problem which must be addressed, namely the extensive surface area in the Cape that has to be served. Whereas there seems to be inequality in the division of seats it is therefore necessary to take this fact into account as well when one argues about the situation. It would therefore be unfair to expect the Cape, for example, to relinquish seats to the Transvaal. Personally I am therefore disinclined to demand seats for the Cape and the other provinces at the expense of the Transvaal. I think I can say with a reasonable amount of certainty that the Transvaal NP does not want to do that.

If one now comes back to the demands of the opposition parties that a delimitation should first take place before the next election, it will mean that we have to delimit on the present quota. This will once again place the Transvaal in a position of complete disparity during the next delimitation period.

*Mr C D DE JAGER:

You have been fast asleep since 1980!

*Mr K D SWANEPOEL:

Sir, we took the initiative and agreed to activate the redistribution of seats suggested by the joint committee responsible for the new redistribution. According to that agreement the Transvaal was to have received 15 additional seats, as far as the House of Assembly was concerned, and Natal one. There was complete unanimity on this in the committee. We know about the subsequent sequence of events. I do not want to go into it now. The fact of the matter is, however, that we were unable to have the constitutional amendment passed. I do believe, though, that it will be possible to achieve this in future.

If we were to base our delimitation on the present quota the Transvaal would lose the positive result of a previous negotiation which the Transvaal was able to obtain on that committee. The CP must now come and tell us whether they want to accept this position. I think it is possible that the period for the delimitation of the House of Assembly for 1990 can be extended to coincide with the ten-year period of the other two Houses, that is to say before 1995.

I should like to know from the hon the Minister whether it is not possible to do this. For that reason it would be better for the Transvaal to wait a while with the delimitation, to negotiate for additional seats and then allow delimitation to occur later. In my opinion this is in the interests of the Transvaal, as well as the entire country. If the CP does not support this line of thinking, I must infer that for the next ten years they want to retain the unequal total of 76 seats in the Transvaal.

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

Now it is our fault!

*Mr K D SWANEPOEL:

The NP does not see its way clear to doing that. As far as the coming election is concerned, the NP is …

*Mr J H VAN DER MERWE:

Goodbye, Karel.

*Mr K D SWANEPOEL:

We shall see one another again. As far as the coming election is concerned, the NP is ready for action in the Transvaal as well as the other provinces.

Traditionally it was the various parties that always helped to deal with the changes of address of newcomers to the constituency. However, I am making an appeal to the hon the Minister and the department today to see to it that they provide assistance in a positive attempt to provide people with change of address cards as soon as possible in order to solve this problem.

I ask again whether it is not possible to place these cards in other public places such as post offices and police stations, with the necessary notification that these cards are available there, so that this matter can receive attention quickly. Let us use all the means at our disposal to get the voters’ rolls as up to date as possible.

Finally I should like to ascertain from the hon the Minister whether it is feasible for the new Electoral Act to be applied prior to this election. [Time expired.]

*Mr S K LOUW:

Mr Chairman, I want to join previous speakers in congratulating the hon member for Innesdal on his appointment as ambassador in the Netherlands. His presence and involvement in Parliament will be missed, but we are aware of his selfless contribution to South African politics in this country and I therefore want to wish him everything of the best in his new position. He will always be remembered as the prophet of reform in the South African Parliament.

South African politics is also entering upon a new era in which everyone is talking about one South Africa, one nation; one South Africa, one people. This is surely where we must all begin. But what worries me these days is that when we talk about the various solutions to our political problems, we are confronted with a very real iniquity in the form of the Population Registration Act. The hon member Mr Lockey referred to it in his address, and I want to expand on this.

The question about South Africa being divided in terms of this legislation must be dealt with, seeing that this is one of the causes of the political hostility in our country. South Africans cannot talk about co-existence while this legislation still exists. This legislation strips every South African of his human dignity to the very bone. This legislation denies one the recognition that one is a South African.

In the light of the new era South Africa is entering into I want to make a serious appeal to the hon the Minister to get rid of this legislation. Let every person be known as a South African citizen who enjoys every benefit in his father-land.

I firmly believe that we would not find ourselves in the narrow confines of prejudice if we moved away from apartheid. Patriotism without responsibility is easy, but patriotism that goes hand-in-hand with successful co-existence is an inspiration to everyone. A new and exciting world would open up to us, because it is after all our heart’s desire to be free.

South Africans have one objective, and that relates to common interests. Internecine strife and war must be stopped. Cultural differences will have to be eliminated. Political vendettas and petty political squabbling are out of step with the demands of the future. I believe that we must break down the fears that are held by every White South African by talking about the vision which is shared today by every Black and White South African. Here I am referring to the dream of seeing South Africa a free country and to be grateful for and also to serve such a South Africa.

We as members of the Labour Party, together with other MPs, are soon to fight an election—an election in which most South Africans are again being left out of the picture. We find this a great pity. I believe that after the new hon members have been elected and the new Parliament opened, constitutional changes will have to be made quickly so that we can all talk about one South Africa as a whole. It must be a South Africa in which the Black man, who is after all part of this country, is made part of the system. Indeed, Black people make up 80% of the country’s population.

For us the election of October 1988 was the realisation of our ideals and dreams, and it will go down in our history books as the occasion when all races went to vote on one day for one tier of local government. I want to thank the hon the Minister and his department for the fact that the coming parliamentary election will also take place on one day. Because all of us prefer to serve in one Parliament, I believe this to be a great step forward. Allow me to express my confidence in the officials who do the spadework to get the machinery in gear for the coming election, because if we all worked together we would have a successful campaign.

As far as the issuing of identity documents is concerned, I want to ask the officials to request the various regional offices to take greater care. Taking a bit more care would also lead to better control.

We in the Labour Party welcome this election. It was the mandate of our voters when we adopted the Eshowe resolution to serve in Parliament for five years, and no longer. We realise that political parties and politicians are going to spring up like mushrooms. However, the one assurance I can give them is that we in the Labour Party in South Africa will ensure that they disappear like mist in the morning.

In conclusion I want to thank the officials in the department, and in particular Mr Tredoux and Mr Van der Merwe. It is a privilege to work with these two gentlemen. To the Director-General, Mr Gerrie van Zyl, who is retiring, I want to say that we hope he will enjoy the period of rest that lies ahead. We trust that a rosy future awaits him.

Mr J B DE R VAN GEND:

Mr Chairman, a number of previous speakers have dealt with legislation which has certain anomalies with regard to this department. I intend following on from what the previous speaker has said about the Population Registration Act but I shall deal with other aspects of it.

Referring to anomalies, the hon member for Green Point for instance referred to the man from Rumania who could not remain here because of our immigration legislation! That is rather typical of the situation we have in this country. I would like to ask the hon the Minister, specifically in regard to the Population Registration Act, what he sees as the purpose of keeping this Act on the Statute Book. I am not merely adding to our repeated calls over many years to scrap this Act. I want to know from the hon the Minister whether the Act presently serves any purpose in promoting the policies and objectives of his Government and of his own political party.

When the Act was introduced in 1950, it was quite rightly seen as a cornerstone, a sine qua non to the philosophy and the implementation of apartheid. White domination and racial segregation at all levels of life required the classification of people into racial compartments. The Population Registration Act had to be passed before, for instance, the Group Areas Act, the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act and all the other apartheid laws could be implemented. Population registration according to race was a prerequisite and a forerunner to apartheid.

Despite the fact that this Act ran contrary to what I believe to be Christian and other universally accepted moral norms, despite the fact that race classification caused enormous disruption of families, separation among friends and evoked universal condemnation, the Nationalist Government at that time placed the Act on the Statute Book precisely because their philosophy and their policy of apartheid could not work without it. This I understand.

I understand the reasons for introducing the Population Registration Act in the early 1950s. That was the NP policy at the time. However, that was 39 years ago.

Mr D P A SCHUTTE:

So you deny that there are groups?

Mr J B DE R VAN GEND:

No, I do not deny the fact that there are groups. Of course there are groups. There are groups sitting right here in this House. There are groups in the sense that I have different group interests from that hon member. I have different group interests from the people who play different kinds of sports than me. We are in a different group in that sense.

Mr D P A SCHUTTE:

No constitutional cognisance should be given to that?

Mr J B DE R VAN GEND:

No, of course not. That was 39 years ago. Why I am mentioning this to hon members is that today we are told that the NP no longer believes in apartheid. This we are told continually. For the past ten years we have been told that apartheid is dead. Even the present tricameral Constitution, which is built on classification, is no longer fashionable. Only yesterday we heard the hon the State President proclaim that we had to look for a new constitution. There is nothing new about this. Even at the time when they introduced the tricameral Constitution they were saying that it was only an interim measure, that this was a step in the right direction. I do not know if the hon members of the NP will remember saying so.

We all know that other pieces of legislation such as the Group Areas Act and the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act, which depend on race classification, are also on their way out. Not, I might add, because the NP wants to relinquish the privileges which these laws afford, but simply because the artificial barriers created by these laws are already crumbling under the pressures of population growth, urbanisation and the upward mobility of our people.

While nobody expects the NP, and in particular not its leader, to admit that the Group Areas Act and the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act will have to be scrapped—I certainly do not expect this admission before the coming election— the hon the Minister knows as well as we do that these laws will have to go and will probably not be on our Statute Book in two or three years’ time.

If, then, the apartheid structure and philosophy which required the Population Registration Act to be placed on the Statute Book is a thing of the past, why do we not get rid of the foundation upon which apartheid was built? For as long as the Population Registration Act, the foundation of apartheid, remains on the Statute Book the Government cannot claim to have abandoned apartheid or even to have the intention of abandoning it.

The retention of this Act also makes a mockery of things like the repeal of the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act. Not only is it a contradiction; in practice this Act and the Group Areas Act cause very real hardship and embarrassment to the many South Africans who have chosen to marry across the colour bar—to them and to their families. On the one hand Government recognises the legitimacy of mixed marriages; on the other it insists that these people who choose to be married, have nevertheless to remain separate in identity and status.

If this Act was conceived as part of a programme to protect group rights and community interests, then its retention in the South Africa of today has exactly the opposite effect. I want to motivate this. When those hon members talk about groups, I want them to understand what a group is. Many South Africans choose their marriage partners regardless of skin colour. More and more people are exercising their own choices as to which community they wish to live in, regardless of race classification. Surprisingly enough, many people today are adopting what I would classify as the normal criteria in deciding where to live. They are not dictated to by a Government which says: You have to live there if you are of a particular colour. They will choose a home, based on where they want to live, where their pocket can afford to allow them to live, in close proximity to their work, possibly with a lovely mountain view. That they choose to do, and they choose to become part of that community. This trend will continue.

I am pleased to say that the vast majority of South Africans accept that community interests have nothing whatever to do with colour. The mere fact of being neighbours and living in the same suburb and city creates community interests. Ideally, people living in one community should have their interests protected by sending elected representatives to local and central government from a community base. This ideal, however, is frustrated by the Population Registration Act and the constitutional structures which are built on this Act.

Ideally, people living in one community should have equal use of the facilities within that community, including public amenities and educational institutions serving that community. Again, this ideal is frustrated by the Population Registration Act and the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act, as well as the education system, which is based on race classification.

However, all of these things will go, including separate education. The various reasons for race classification are fast disappearing, and I should like to ask the hon the Minister what his thinking is—even if it is not NP policy at this stage—on the retention of the Population Registration Act when we are entering an era where all the reasons for placing that Act on the Statute Book either have already disappeared or are in the process of disappearing. Even if it is not NP policy, these must be recognised as things which, of necessity, will disappear.

I should like to deal briefly with one further aspect, namely the Identification Act, which at first glance eliminates racial classification from the information contained in the identity documents. I understand that although when one looks at one of these documents one cannot tell to which race it applies, one can no doubt nevertheless establish through the computer in the department which race classification a particular person falls into. Perhaps that is necessary for departmental purposes. What I would like to know is whether this information is available to the public. Can a member of the public telephone his department and inquire, on the basis of an identity number, what race that particular person is classified as? For instance, if a school principal has to decide whether or not to admit a child to his school, would that information be furnished to such a school principal? For that matter, if an employer wanted to know what race a person was because he did not want to employ a person of a particular colour, would the department furnish that sort of information? In short, is the information which the computer gives the department, also available to the public?

*Mr W J MEYER:

Mr Chairman, there is one subject which regularly crops up from time to time, particularly in the Press, because it affects the Department of Home Affairs directly. Although it may affect them directly, however, the people of our country are the ultimate losers. I am, of course, speaking about the restrictive emergency measures which are gagging the media to such a great extent.

Media people of all levels, including those who are representative of newspapers which support the NP, are concerned about the restrictions. Probably one of the most powerful figures in the newspaper industry who supports the NP, the managing director of Nasionale Pers and chairman of M-Net, Mr Ton Vosloo, was recently quoted in Die Burger of 18 February 1989 as follows:

Koerante en ander media word deurgaans deur politici aangespreek om hul huis in orde te kry, maar dit wil my voorkom of die goeie orde in die eerste plek moet begin by diegene wat regeer. As hul sake in orde was, sou daar nie die oorvloed van wandade gewees het wat geregverdigde opskrifte in die pers tot gevolg het nie.

The report continues as follows:

Daar is ’n toenemende onwilligheid aan die kant van die owerhede om inligting vry te stel, en dit ondanks ’n groter aantal skakelbeamp-tes in Regeringsdiens as ooit tevore. Ons kry minder inligting van waarde, en meer en meer uitskot in terme van irrelevante feite.

Mr Vosloo is supported by an academic from the University of Stellenbosch, Dr Erwin Schwella. In his doctoral thesis on the role of the Press in the dissemination of information to the public for the maintenance of public responsibility, Dr Schwella found that the standpoint of the authorities with regard to the role of the Press was always negative.

The managing director of the Argus Printing and Publishing company, Mr Peter McLean, was quoted as follows in The Argus on 7 March 1989:

South African newspapers were often limited to reporting the broad scenario and forced by Government restrictions to omit significant detail.

I must agree with him, because the mass communication power of the Press is viewed by the Government as a potential threat to law and order and as an obstruction. That is why they are placing a heavy prohibition on what is actually the right of the newspaper. It is very important to remember that freedom of the Press is not some sort of sacred right which has been bestowed upon the news editors and owners of newspapers. It is the right of the people. How important is it not that freedom of the Press should be preserved!

I wish to appeal to the Government to allow our newspapermen a little more leeway in so far as freedom of the Press is concerned. After all, freedom of the Press is regarded throughout the world as one of the cornerstones of democracy. This places a great responsibility on those people who write the reports.

The hon the Minister of Home Affairs often says that the Government does not mind the media criticising it. During a discussion of the opening address of the hon the Acting State President in February he said, inter alia, the following, and I quote from his notes which he furnished to the media:

The Government does not resent scrutiny by the Press. The Press is fully entitled to be critical of issues such as political policies, of the way in which the country is managed and of conduct and practices of the public sector. What the Government does resent is the way sections of the Press at times disregard journalistic principles … by not always reporting news truthfully, accurately and objectively; resorting to material omissions, exaggeration and misrepresentation; presenting comment as facts; misleading headlines; and reporting in such a way that what is presented is not information but disinformation.

I am certain that we all agree with the hon the Minister’s statement. These are fine words, they are true words, and I have only one problem with them: Most of them are subjective. What the hon the Minister considers to be misrepresentation, what to him is disinformation instead of information, and what to him is “accurately and objectively” and “resorting to material omissions”, is not always viewed in the same light by his opposition. Therefore, I do not know whether his words that the Government “does not resent scrutiny by the Press” are always true.

I have another problem with this. Usually it is largely the English-language Press or so-called alternative Press that is accused of disregarding the aforementioned provisions of the media code. I want the hon the Minister to decide for himself on the basis of two extracts from newspapers, whether or not this is true. Both of these extracts appeared on 10 April 1989, the Monday after the DP had been officially founded. The one appeared in an English language newspaper and the other in a newspaper which is regarded as the mouthpiece of the NP. Hon members may purchase both of them every morning on the streets here. The one is Die Burger and the other one is the Cape Times. I quote from the Cape Times’.

“The ANC should end its campaign of terror and should reconsider its stance on sanctions and disinvestment”, a co-leader of the newly-formed Democratic Party, Dr Z de Beer said at the weekend.

Hon members will agree with me that the words of the hon member Dr De Beer are clear. I shall now quote a report which appeared that same morning in Die Burger. The heading reads: “DP sal slap in knieë wees op veiligheid”. It reads as follows, and I quote:

Soos sy voorgangers sal die Demokratiese Party slap in die knieë wees as dit kom by die landsveiligheid, het die hoofleier van die Nasionale Party, mnr F W De Klerk, gisteraand gesê. Mnr De Klerk het by navraag kommen-taar gelewer op die stigting van die Demokratiese Party in Johannesburg in die naweek.

It is probably the prerogative of the hon the leader-in-chief to make that statement. When all is said and done, it is his personal opinion. However, this makes me wonder. After all, a newspaper is supposed to be objective, not to present comment as facts, to be accurate, and to do all the fine things of which the hon the Minister of Home Affairs so often makes mention. What, for example, did the Afrikaans newspaper do under the aforementioned circumstances? If they had wanted to be honest to their readers and to report objectively on an event, then surely they should also have quoted the attitude the DP, as reported in the English newspaper. After all, the reader could then have decided for himself what the DP’s attitude towards security was.

I want to make a serious appeal to the hon the Minister of Home Affairs today to take another look at the emergency regulations pertaining to the media. Is it really necessary to treat the media in South Africa like adolescents? I wish to quote the hon the Minister again, when he said that in general the Press was performing its task as watchdog of the community very well. Am I therefore incorrect in interpreting this as meaning that it is only a certain sector of the Press that is making him unhappy? If so, why does he not concentrate on the specific newspaper to which he has an objection and allow the rest to carry on peacefully with their daily task? After all, there is a Media Council with no less than a judge as chairman. Surely that body is there to exercise control whenever newspapers act irresponsibly. Surely the Press in South Africa has come a long way since Fairbairn and Pringle won the first round in the struggle for freedom of the Press in South Africa. The Press, which has already been in existence for 170 years in a relatively young country, is not a body that can be pushed around and restricted at will.

I wish to conclude with a quotation from the South African Chronicle and Mercantile Advertiser of 1826. I quote:

A people without a Press cannot be regarded as civilised.

I want to make so bold as to say that the writer would have changed his statement today, in 1989, to: “A people without a free Press cannot be regarded as civilised.”

*Mr J M AUCAMP:

Mr Chairman, it is a great pleasure for me to take part in this debate. I am also grateful to be able to congratulate an able hon Minister. He administers his department in an excellent manner and I think the small amount of criticism that has been expressed here today is very clear proof of this.

I cannot but refer in passing to the speech made by the hon member for Groote Schuur. He devoted virtually his entire speech to the Population Registration Act. By his arguments he once again demonstrated a lack of sensitivity and understanding of the realities of this country. That is why the voters have rejected them up to now and that is why the voters will reject them in future. Where could one find clearer proof of the sanctimonious political approach of the DP than in their refusal of membership to two Coloured members of this Parliament, for reasons which I hope they do not believe any reasonable person will be able to accept.

It is very clear that we are on the eve of an election. This is being reflected in this debate and it is almost as if the two opposition parties in the House of Assembly have been caught somewhat unawares by this possibility. It is as if the bell has rung but they are hesitant to come out of their corners. It is a good thing that this Vote has come up for discussion now because political parties can discuss certain matters against the background of the approaching election.

I was privileged to serve on the Joint Committee on the Electoral Act, and whilst I should not like to go into the Elections and Identification Amendment Bill in detail now, I should nevertheless like to refer to a few aspects in passing, particularly with regard to the necessity for voters to report changes of address.

Before I come to that, however, I just want to say once again, as an official of the NP and as a member of the aforementioned committee, that the knowledge of the officials of this department and the dedication with which they do their work, made an impression on me. The Department of Home Affairs creates the machinery whereby democracy is maintained in this country and whereby political parties can function by having representatives elected to this Parliament. Furthermore, I should also like to express my particular appreciation to the regional representatives and officials of the two regional offices in the Free State. If hon members would like to see what wonderful co-operation is, they should come and look at the Free State. Relations between the political parties and the officials of those regional offices are relaxed. The officials are helpful, and always have a sympathetic ear for the requests of political parties, which—I must say this—can sometimes be demanding.

I wish to refer briefly to voters’ rolls, of which mention has already been made here. I am grateful for the steps which the department is going to take in drawing the attention of the voters in various ways to the importance of changing their addresses. A major proportion of the discussion of the joint committee also dealt with this very aspect, namely the bringing and keeping up to date of voters’ rolls.

Hon members know the history of the voters’ roll. Prior to 1984 voters had to register in order to be included on the voters’ roll. Who of us does not still remember the RV 1 cards, which had to be filled in with so much care? A great improvement was subsequently introduced when the voters’ roll was compiled from the population register. Since then there have been considerably more voters on the voters’ rolls, since everyone who possesses an identity document is entitled to vote in one or other constituency in the country. Moreover, hon members also know how important it is to keep the voters’ rolls up to date. Voters who are “missing”, as it were, cause great difficulty to political parties, and these people are sought at great cost.

During elections there is also the category of “untraceable” persons in every constituency, which influences the percentage poll of the election. Throughout the world people are striving to obtain political rights, which is why it is a pity that a small percentage of voters in our country are not prompt with regard to their changes of address. One of the most important duties of the citizen of a country is that of casting his vote, and for this reason he must ensure that he appears on the voters’ roll of the constituency in which he is resident. I want to appeal to voters today to be efficient and prompt when it comes to changing their addresses. I want to say that we must foster a culture in South Africa, a culture which will mean that people should regard the Department of Home Affairs as the very first place they should advise of their changes of address. Am I not right in saying that people normally advise quite a number of bodies of their change of address when they move from one dwelling to another, but that they neglect to advise the department of this?

In this regard I want to make an appeal to John Citizen to place the Department of Home Affairs at the top of his list of priorities. We are aware of the frustrations that have been referred to here. It is frustrating for voters to have to turn around at the polling booth because their names do not appear on the voters’ roll. In my view the greatest responsibility still rests on the individual voter himself to change his address, notwithstanding the assistance which is rendered by the department. A legal obligation therefore rests on voters to report their changes of address and there are also relatively heavy penalties if they neglect to do so. However, a certain measure of laxness is still discernible among some voters.

The department helps a great deal. They make change of address cards freely available. I must say, political parties also fulfil an important role here. Cards may be returned post-free. Moreover, one cannot but also make the voters aware of the form which is in any event contained in the back cover of the identity document. They could just as easily fill this in and return it to the Department of Home Affairs.

Reference has also been made to the recommendation of the select committee which was contained in amending legislation. It was recommended that statutory authorisation be afforded to local authorities to compel those people who apply for their water and electricity to be connected, to furnish information if their addresses are not up to date. This was done in co-operation with the representative bodies of local authorities and a new form was also made available for this purpose on which six names could appear. Up to now an ad hoc arrangement has existed in terms of which local authorities have offered their assistance in bringing the voters’ roll up to date by reporting changes of address.

Another matter which I should just like to mention in passing—and I believe this would also help a great deal—is another recommendation of the joint committee, namely that electoral officers should be empowered to remove names from the voters’ roll temporarily if it appears that such persons have not been resident at their old addresses for a long time. According to my information this would happen after negotiation with the political parties. It would then be possible to place these persons back on the voters’ rolls at any time. This would to a large extent overcome the problem experienced where more than one family is still registered at a specific address.

I also want to refer to what is, in my view, an interesting and a good improvement, namely that those voters who cast postal or special votes and who indicate as their reason for doing so that they are no longer resident at their original address, must also immediately report their change of address. This will then be relayed to the department.

Finally, I am also grateful for the possibility that exists for political parties to argue for more than one polling station within a single electoral district. Hon members know that it sometimes happens that many voters, actually more than can be dealt with, have to vote at one polling station and we are grateful for the new trend that has emerged of giving political parties an opportunity to insist on a logical, geographical division, provided that this can be done in time, before the voters’ rolls are compiled.

Mr P I DEVAN:

Mr Chairman, Indians from abroad—like the Whites—come to South Africa for a variety of reasons. Indians come here mainly as teachers to promote Indian languages, or as priests to propagate religion and as cultural artists to promote music, dance and drama. As far as approving their visits is concerned, it has been my experience that in recent years there has been a greater measure of co-operation from departmental officials than in previous years. There have been applications by Indians from Sri Lanka who were employed in independent Black states or neighbouring countries, for their children to study at Indian schools in the Republic of South Africa, mainly in order to gain an Indian cultural background.

Invariably, the aliens department of the Department of Home Affairs processes their applications and grants them the necessary domicile in the Republic. What I wish to point out, however, is that there is considerable delay in finalising the applications of these children. There have been cases where delays have been the reason for children not being admitted to schools at the beginning of the school term, although all the necessary particulars and documents were provided to the department.

There is another category of Indians which the department treats harshly. Whereas the spouses of Indian males who marry abroad can come and settle in the Republic, the concession is not extended to Indian females who marry abroad. I wonder if people are jealous about that. [Interjections.]

There is an extremely small number of Indian males married to South African Indian women who wish to settle in South Africa, but are prevented from doing so. I have at hand the case of an Indian lady who married an Indian overseas, but could not acclimatise in India. She shuttles to and fro and has been using all her money to visit her husband. Her husband has also visited her once or twice. However, the two of them cannot be together. There are extreme cases like that and I would like the department to look into them.

*Mr L M J VAN VUUREN:

Mr Chairman, when the Chairman interrupted me during this debate last year, I had just started with my speech about the Government Printer. [Interjections.].

*An HON MEMBER:

And now you are carrying on!

*Mr L M J VAN VUUREN:

The Government Printer is not a nationalised suitor. The Government Printer is, amongst other things, the printer of annual reports of departments. The hon member Mr Yusuf Seedat referred to the annual report of the department. We receive annual reports on our desks regularly, and it is interesting that although good wine needs no bush, some departments do find it necessary to have their annual reports printed on glossy paper with colour photographs etc. This is assuming such proportions that the printing costs of an annual report published last year amounted to R45 per copy.

When the hon member for Schweizer-Reneke’s father was the Minister of Home Affairs, he instructed that the annual reports of departments should be of the same standardised format, such as that of the report which the Department of Home Affairs is still publishing. I now refer to the annual report of the department which, as is the case with good wine, needs no praise. I want to ask the hon the Minister to repeat the late Dr Connie Mulder’s instruction to the departments. [Interjections.] We cannot afford this luxury.

We said that the Government Printer was not a nationalised suitor, and there is a great deal of pressure from many quarters for the Government Printer to be privatised. Although the Government Printer has already privatised a very large part of its work, it unfortunately cannot be privatised in toto. Last year the Government Printer requested private printers to do 40% of its work, to the amount of R35 million, on its behalf. One of the reasons why the Government Printer cannot be privatised, is that the printing of face value documents such as postage stamps, revenue stamps and postal orders cannot be privatised. The printing of security documents such as last year’s six million school examination papers, voters’ rolls and ballot-papers cannot be privatised either.

The volume of work of the Government Printer is such that at the moment it is by far the biggest printer in the country. Furthermore it provides training to more apprentices than any other printer in the country. Speaking of apprentices, the position of the Government Printer is such that at present there are 900 staff members. There are staff members who are members of the third generation of a family working for the Government Printer. The grandmothers or grandfathers of these staff members also worked there.

With regard to employment the Government Printer fulfils a very special social function by giving preference to ladies who are the breadwinners, for example divorced ladies, unmarried mothers and widows, instead of giving preference to people who do not need employment that much.

The Government Printer also has an office here in Cape Town and the chief is Mr Cliff Adams, who is a very capable man. He is a member of the local Coloured community. The Coloured community of Cape Town can be proud of him. The staff of the Government Printer are also members of trade unions.

The Government Printer celebrated its centenary last year. The parliamentary session came to an end before I could congratulate the Government Printer on its centenary last year. Therefore, Mr Chairman, before I am interrupted by you once again, I want to congratulate Mr Coetzee, the present nationalised suitor, on its 101st birthday.

The Government Printer renders a very special service to the country. Today we have discussed voters’ rolls, ballot-papers, postal votes and everything in connection with elections. Every one of those documents is printed by the Government Printer. We are having an election later this year. For the first time in the history of the country the Government Printer will have to print voters’ rolls for 286 constituencies simultaneously. Then there are also the ballot papers for the candidates of 286 constituencies. Ten days after the nomination of the candidates, these will have to have been printed. Considering the fact that constituencies have two, three or even four candidates each, one can calculate the volume of the millions of ballot-papers that will have to be printed.

Apart from the ballot-papers and the voters’ rolls, all the forms for postal votes and special votes, envelopes etc, have to be printed. Everything must be provided—even the pencils with which the votes are cast and the ink, stamps and stamp pads which the officials use for postal votes.

After 101 years of proud service to South Africa we should like to wish the Government Printer every success for the next 99 years up to its 200th anniversary.

*The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (Assembly):

Order! I trust that this time the hon member for Hercules has managed to say everything that he wanted to say. [Interjections.]

Mr M G MASHER:

Mr Chairman, as congratulations are the order of the day, may I also extend my sincere and best wishes to all those concerned. It is heartening to note that the subdirectorate renders such outstanding services to the media and other institutions and that it has a working relationship par excellence with the Press in its role in informing the public in a properly balanced, complete and clear way about matters with regard to the department. Yet there are components of this Press which do the opposite as far as political parties, especially the LP, are concerned, when it comes to specific and general activities. The very same applies to the SABC radio and television services.

The LP’s standpoint on violence is common knowledge. We deplore violence in all its forms and welcome media monitoring of any subversive propaganda on this issue. However, our concern is with how subversiveness is categorised. Is it subversive when we call for the release of detainees without trial? Is it subversive when calls are made to remove racial discrimination in all its forms from the Statute Book? Is it subversive when we publicly call for the lifting of the state of emergency? Is it subversive when we call for the eradication of evictions? I have mentioned only a few.

The LP has always been and will always be a freedom movement and the rights of all individuals will always be of paramount importance to us. It is reassuring to note that publishers of subversive propaganda were warned by the hon the Minister as defined by regulation 7 of the MER. However, it would be proper justice if these matters were referred to the courts of law.

It is noted that organisations and individuals have made representations based on their perceptions of the efficacy of the Publications Act of 1974 and the manner in which it was applied. I would like to know if any of these parties concerned were of the extra-parliamentary groups, the so-called radicals, and members of the so-called subversive groups. It is also noted that church, cultural and youth organisations have asked the directorate to address them. My question is whether any of these groups are represented in the present political scenario and how successfully were the respondents informed of the Act in toto.

It is also noted that 714 ad hoc committees were appointed under the Directorate of Publications. According to what criteria are these committees appointed and are they fully integrated? Under the subheading “Exemptions” it is stated that “approved institutes and other organisations … [and] bona fide students” are entitled to open and special exemptions to obtain undesirable and even prohibited material. An explanation on classification of the aforementioned quote will be the order of the day.

What was the basis for the rejection of the 84 films under the subheading “Films and public entertainment”? Were they rejected on the basis of indecent acts or embraces across the colour bar, or could they have been rejected on the basis that the department has lost track of the thinking public of the country? In conclusion, is it not time that the Act be referred for review?

Debate interrupted.

The Committee adjourned at 18h09.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

TABLINGS:

Papers:

General Affairs:

1. The Minister of Defence:

White Paper on the Planning Process of the South African Defence Force, 1989.

2. The Acting Minister of Public Works and Land Affairs:

  1. (1) Report of the Department of Public Works and Land Affairs for 1988 [RP 50—89].
  2. (2) Memorandum setting out particulars of the building programme for 1989-90 in respect of Programme 5 (provision of buildings and structures) of Vote 11 of the State Revenue Account [WP D—89].

3. The Minister of Economic Affairs and Technology:

Reports of the—

  1. (1) Small Business Advisory Bureau for 1988;
  2. (2) Small Business Development Corporation, Limited, for 1988;
  3. (3) South African Bureau of Standards for 1988.

4. The Acting Minister of Manpower: Report of the National Manpower Commission for 1988 [RP 51—89].

5. The Minister of Law and Order:

Report of the Commissioner of the South African Police for 1986-87 [RP 57—88].

6. The Minister of Environment Affairs:

White Paper on Environmental Education, 1989 [WP F—89].