Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, at the very outset let me pay tribute to those in the SA Defence Force who, in the past year, have paid the ultimate price for our security. We honour their memory and pray for strength for their next of kin.

I am specifically also referring to the soldiers and members of the other security forces—ie members of the SA Police Force and of the SWA Police Force—who lost their lives in the interests of peace at the beginning of this month when Swapo terrorists committed their atrocities in northern South West Africa. Members of various population groups were involved in the action taken against these cowardly, calculated and reckless deeds of bloodshed to which I shall be referring at a later stage.

South Africa honours the memory of these men who died on the furthest outposts to keep the process of peace going. We wish their next of kin strength.

I also thank those who, with credit, went on pension from the SA Defence Force and Arms-cor during the past year. My sincere thanks for their loyal service, in everyone’s interests, to the Defence family.

Let me now refer to Comdt Piet Marais, who is to retire at the end of July this year as chairman of Armscor. The impressive achievements of the armaments industry have, on many occasions, been ascribed to the competent leadership of Comdt Marais. He was, and still is, a popular soldier—a person for whom everyone who has dealings with him has nothing but the utmost respect.

At the end of 12 years of development in the armaments industry, Comdt Marais is to be succeeded by the present executive general manager of Armscor, Mr Johan van Vuuren. Mr Van Vuuren also heralds a new era in the history of Armscor in the sense that he will be the first executive chairman of the corporation.

Comdt Marais will always be remembered as the person who was always at the forefront in the establishment of the arms industry in South Africa. He developed it to the level at which the whole world takes due note of our iron fist. This applies equally to our enemies and the purchasers of battle-proven weapon systems.

Since the establishment of Armscor in its present form on 1 April 1977, Comdt Marais has stood at the helm of this dynamic industry. In this time Armscor has made numerous major breakthroughs in the sphere of armaments. We need only think, for example, of the R4 assault-rifle, the SS-77 light machine-gun, the G5 and G6 155mm artillery systems, the advanced 127mm Valkiri artillery rocket system, the Cheetah fighter aircraft, the giant supply ship SAS Drakensberg, the Darter air-to-air missile and, in the very recent past, the extremely advanced armoured car—our own Rooikat.

All these products are a mere bagatelle in the arsenal of armaments which Armscor has developed to date and which has brought South Africa world renown. At the last Fida international show in Santiago, Chili, Armscor again proved that its products are regarded as amongst the very best in the world. I want to say that the world was actually thunderstruck at the products that Armscor had on display there. [Interjections.]

Comdt Marais was consistently on the forefront to help South Africa develop from a country that was dependent upon arms imports to one for which arms exports have developed to such an extent that at present the corporation is one of the major foreign exchange earners in South Africa.

With him at the helm it was possible to have South Africa’s armaments industry work together as a team. A model for co-operation was established, a model which proved irrefutably that great success can be achieved, in the country’s interests, in having the security forces, Armscor and private-sector industries team up.

Now the time has come for this former agriculturist to transfer the reins of this corporation to the younger generation. We greet the farm boy from the De Aar district, who was born in the Karoo, with great esteem for what he has done for the Defence family and for South Africa. He has indeed been a great leader and pioneer in the international arms industry. South Africa salutes him. I wish Mr Van Vuuren every success and God’s richest blessings in his labours.

This brings me to the South African Defence Force. On 1 April of this year another well-known and respected senior officer, Adm Glen Syndercombe, retired as Chief of the Navy after a period of service of 29 years. He was succeeded by Adm Dries Putter.

Another two officers who retired on the same day were Gen Holtshauzen as Chief of Staff (Personnel) and Gen Lemmer as Chief of Staff (Logistics). They were succeeded by Gen Len Meyer and Gen Ken Pickersgill respectively. Gen Ken Pickersgill also retains the duties of Quartermaster-General.

We take our leave of these three extremely competent officers, and I thank them for their loyal, hard and honest work over many years.

Let me also mention that on 1 April Gen Witkop Badenhorst was promoted to the staff of the Chief of the South African Defence Force, and that Gen Bischoff was appointed as Chief of Staff (Operations).

On an occasion such as this, of course, it is impossible to mention all the names of the men and women who go to make up the Defence family. Let me therefore extend my thanks to all those men and women who, whether on our borders, in certain residential areas or behind desks, have been faithful and loyal workers. The sacrifices with which a great deal of this work is done, and the attendent dangers that are frequently encountered, are seldom given the necessary appreciation.

I am very glad that L/Cpl Johan Papenfus is back in his fatherland after 11 months as a prisoner of war in Cuba. That is one of the attractive dividends of the peace negotiations in regard to South-Western Africa. South Africa must always remember that peace is only possible because its soldiers do such a fine job.

†This brings me to Parliament. Today is indeed historic because it is the first time that the Defence Vote is being discussed in extended public committee. This development gives me great pleasure. I am especially grateful for the sound co-operation and excellent relations which exist between the defence study groups of the Houses of Representatives and Delegates.

When this Vote was discussed for the first time in these two Houses in 1985 I expressed the wish that the two new defence study groups would give me the opportunity to introduce them into the Defence family and into security in general. I am grateful to be able to testify today that they made use of this opportunity. As a result of their willingness they have become constructive and knowledgeable members of the Defence family.

*It is against this background that I do, to a certain extent, regret taking leave of the hon member for Mamre who has now been called to higher office. I congratulate him on his promotion to Deputy Minister. I am glad. Throughout the years he has been such a loyal friend and ally of the SADF, Armscor and the Ministry that I let him go, as it were, in the knowledge that wherever the future may lead him, he will always act responsibly and honourably when it comes to the security of our country and all its people.

In his first speech as spokesman of his party on 25 April 1985, this hon Deputy Minister used the following words of Franklin D Roosevelt to illustrate his point of departure: “The core of our defence is in the faith we have in the institutions we defend.” Then he heaped praise on the SADF and spoke about White people and Brown people fighting together for peace and security in the RSA. I commend the hon the Deputy Minister, without reservation, for the way in which he has served the Defence family and for the firm foundations he has laid for defence and security in his House.

The hon member for Riversdal succeeds the hon the Deputy Minister. I extend a hearty welcome to him. In him the Defence family has an undisputed friend, a dependable man and a hard and very loyal worker. I wish him everything of the best and trust that there will be many years of positive co-operation in developing our common interests.

†I now come to the new DP. The previous spokesman on defence was the hon nominated member Prof Olivier. I wish to pay tribute to him. He did good work and acted in a responsible way and it was always a pleasure to deal with him. He was succeeded by the hon member for Constantia who never got out of his blocks as spokesman. I can understand why. In last year’s debate he entangled himself in disinformation and propaganda put out by Angop and Aim. I pointed out this reckless game to him and it appears that he has chosen to stay out of our way.

However, this year he has again entangled himself by repeating anti-SADF propaganda and disinformation. I refer to remarks about Cuito Cuanavale he made in the Sunday Star of 12 March this year. He did this despite the fact that the true facts and the objectives of the SADF in south-east Angola were given to him and his party at briefings.

His tenure as spokesman ended with the death of the PFP. The question is whether the DP will continue with the PFP’s pitiful record on security or whether they will try to turn over a new leaf. Only time will tell.

You are talking absolute nonsense.

I am glad the hon member said that. Is he still soft on security?

However, I must say I welcome the hon member for Sandton as the new spokesman on defence for this party. He is an experienced politician. As such, he is surely aware of the pitiful record of his predecessors in the PFP. The hon member is his party’s ninth spokesman on defence in nine years. I am sure that is an all-time record for spokesmen in general. It is no wonder that many people say this party is soft on security. It makes one think, doesn’t it? [Interjections.]

I am sorry the hon member for Yeoville will be absent during this debate. As far as I can recall this is the first defence debate in which he will not participate. He informed me about his absence.

Finally, I would like to congratulate the hon member for Laudium who is now Chairman of his House. This hon member has done, and is still doing, outstanding work as their spokesman on defence. He is a respected and loyal friend of the Defence family.

*Today I am not going to speak about developments in South West Africa/Namibia. Last Thursday the hon the State President drew a picture of the incidents leading up to the present events, and the next day my colleague, the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs, elaborated on this. Tomorrow I hope to bring this Committee up to date on the latest events, and then I shall also make a few remarks about that.

I now want to speak about what I call the positioning of the SADF and Armscor, but before I come to that, I want to sketch the specific background and views based on security considerations.

In recent decades we have become accustomed to living in and thinking of a world consisting of the East and West. Our thoughts have centred on the superpowers, with their own power-blocs, which are in conflict. This world is a world divided up into Eastern Europe and Western Europe, East Germany and West Germany, North Korea and South Korea, North Vietnam and South Vietnam, Red China and Nationalist China and, closer to home, the Republic of South Africa and the so-called Frontline States.

The resultant pattern of life has been one of conflict and confrontation. States have formulated their international images on the strength of the so-called threat. If one studies the international scene realistically, however, one notices clear trends over the past few years. It seems as if the world order is in the process of changing.

Subtle shifts in international trade imply that Western Europe is going to play a much stronger role in the nineties. Western Europe, as an integrated economic unit after 1992, must ultimately also begin to play a stronger political role in the world. Without any fuss Japan has also moved to the level of an economic superpower, with the completely new economic integration of its neighbouring countries in the Far East. Western Europe and the Far East have developed into new economic superblocs in their own right. We in South Africa must take note of that.

Within the context of these new developments there are many indications that the Soviet Union, under Mr Gorbachev, has begun to break away from its traditional role as a country seeking confrontation. Mr Gorbachev began speaking of new trends of thought in Europe manifesting themselves in a common European community. It appears that the new Soviet leadership is slowly but surely starting to push aside the old model of confrontation. In his speech before the United Nations in New York on 7 December 1988 Mr Gorbachev identified a new trend:

Under Mr Gorbachev the Soviet Union has realised that economic and technological progress is impossible, particularly if an expansionist foreign policy of confrontation is pursued with a view to exporting revolution. That is why he wants to bring Eastern Europe closer to Western Europe, economically, politically and technologically, before 1992.

In the last decade of this century we are therefore faced with the possibility of a completely new order in Europe. This has far-reaching implications for South Africa. When Eastern Europe and Western Europe start moving closer to each other, it has a very decided effect on us.

As far as our perception of the world is concerned, we shall have to realise that since 1945 the phase of conflict has begun to make way for a phase of potential co-operation. From us this also demands a new attitude, preparation and a new approach to problems, opportunities and challenges.

The question one ought to ask is what South Africa’s position should be in the emergent world order. There was a time when we placed great emphasis on South Africa’s role in the defence of the Cape sea route and as a reliable ally and provider of raw materials to the West.

What South Africa must consider is whether it can continue to entertain these perceptions when Eastern and Western Europe are entering a new era of co-operation and when there are the first signs of increasing trade between Japan, Taiwan and Red China.

Where must South Africa’s interests then lie— with the East or the West? The question is in itself an erroneous one, of course, because South Africa’s course must take it to where its own interests are best served. This could include contact, trade and the exchange of knowledge with both the West and the East. If our rail network into Central Africa serves as a basis for trade, regardless of the political ideology of the supplier or the purchaser, the question that arises is whether this should not increasingly apply to our harbours, airports and other spheres of activity too.

As far as Southern Africa is concerned, we are gradually seeing Mr Gorbachev’s so-called new approach sifting through. The Soviet Union is showing signs of being prepared to reformulate its interests in Southern Africa. This has also become apparent from a discussion I had with Deputy Minister Anatoly Adamishin in Brazzaville in December last year.

In March of last year I remarked that a different situation could arise in regard to Angola if Mr Gorbachev were to extend his efforts in Afghanistan to the southern hemisphere.

On another occasion, in an address at the University of Pretoria on 2 November of last year, I said that the implementation of perestroika and glasnost in the northern hemisphere was simply not being extended manifestly enough to the southern hemisphere.

Now, when my colleague, the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and I were at Mount Etjo two weeks ago to discuss Swapo’s infiltration into South West Africa/Namibia, it was the attitude of the Cubans and the Angolan deputation that gave me most hope. They clearly took a stand in opposition to Swapo’s violation of and disregard for the agreements. If this attitude is an indication of what we can expect, we can build on that and live with it, and even new structures of co-operation and development cannot be excluded either.

As far as Southern Africa is concerned, the world picture of the Second World War led to a phase of provocation and intolerance. The attitude of conflict towards South Africa that gained a foothold in the so-called Frontline States captured world attention. There was consequently no time or opportunity to give any attention to other important developments on the subcontinent.

Many countries on the subcontinent simply disregarded our repeated offers to create mechanisms to deal with matters of common concern such as security. In addition the large-scale economic and social deterioration on the subcontinent was simply dismissed as being the result of South Africa’s so-called destabilisation. Since the fifties and sixties, when Africa was gripped by the uhuru fever, all the problems were automatically ascribed to the colonial legacy and to South Africa.

That this was largely a fig-leaf to hide the mistakes of the complainants has irrefutably been proved on many occasions, but significantly enough that hackneyed story about South Africa having to shoulder the blame for all the misery is still doing the rounds, particularly in leftist radical circles. These circles are as out of step with developments as Sam Nujoma and Robert Mugabe who sing the same tune in an effort to blame South Africa for the recent developments in South West Africa.

On this basis the actual problems of our region are not being tackled. The major causes of this misery, ie corruption, internal warfare and disputes, and an inability to administer the affairs of the country, thus remain unattended to and unsolved. As soon as there is lasting peace, these problems are going to descend upon Africa in all their harsh reality. One only hopes there will then still be enough international interest in the fate of Africa, and specifically Southern Africa.

The time has therefore come for the concepts we employ to be unsullied concepts. Let us rid ourselves of concepts such as destabilisation, neo-colonialism, aggression and oppression. My appeal to Southern Africa is for us to replace them with positive concepts such as co-operation, mutual assistance and a constructive approach, the transfer of expertise and training, recognition of one another’s human dignity and right to survive. Let us act together to build and not break down.

We are approaching the year 2000. We should like to enter the new century in security and prosperity. What is needed, in order to do so, is an alert attitude and also alertness in our pattern of thinking. Without becoming weak, without relinquishing basic principles, we must intrepidly move forward in the interests of South Africa and all its people.

A moment ago I referred to indications that the Soviet Union was reviewing its policy on Southern Africa. South Africa, however, is neither optimistic nor pessimistic about this. We are realistic. About our security and the effect of interaction between states in our region, our approach is one of realpolitik. We are not, however, relinquishing our security interests. Nor is the South African Defence Force shrinking from the maintenance of these interests. Exporting revolution is and continues to be, unacceptable.

Mr Gorbachev’s reconsidered policy towards the region must take note of this. The Soviet Union’s sustained assistance to, and support of, terrorist groups continues to place the realism of the above-mentioned reconsidered policy in question.

This brings me to the role and positioning of the SA Defence Force. Over the past two or three decades the SADF has played a singular role in securing the borders of the RSA and South West Africa/Namibia. When it became necessary, the SA Defence Force also came to the assistance of the SA Police in certain residential areas, largely to normalise situations and also to help in their stabilisation.

In South West Africa/Namibia the acceptance of the settlement plan has, from 1 April, of necessity resulted in a change of roles. The maintenance of law and order—in other words security—has firstly become the responsibility of Swapol, the South West African Police. In terms of that settlement plan the SA Defence Force has been restricted to bases and there has been a demobilisation of area forces, which form part of the South West African Territorial Force.

Swapol has done its excellent work. The first traces of terrorist infiltrators were noticed on 1 April, shortly before eight o’clock in the morning, and the first contact was approximately two hours later. When it became apparent that Swapo was actively infiltrating on a wide front of approximately 470km, Swapol called in the assistance of the SA Defence Force. The SADF reacted positively, because our men were in their bases and, as always, ready for any eventuality.

What should be remembered, however, is that at that stage the settlement plan had come into operation. South Africa consistently abides by that settlement plan, in letter and in spirit. Swapo, and a major portion of the international community, would have been overjoyed if South Africa had intervened at that stage without the knowledge and approval of the Secretary-General’s Special Representative. That was obtained, whereupon the SA Defence Force again carried out its task effectively and purposefully, as always.

In this regard let me give hon members an example. It relates to 101 Batallion. They were demobilised on Friday, 31 March. The next day, when Swapo infiltrated, messages were broadcast for them to return. On Sunday, 2 April, a day later, they were back—in full strength and ready for action. If that is not discipline, motivation and purposefulness, someone must explain these concepts to me. [Interjections.]

Owing to the action we took, the SADF could therefore not be accused of a single act of aggression, provocation or the violation of any agreement. South Africa, as a country, was commended for the faultless, purposeful and level-headed action it took. Those in CP circles who are so quick to allege that I was caught unawares are completely on the wrong track.

I want to say more about that. On 11 April the hon member for Overvaal said in this House, and I quote:

The hon member then alleged—and he blames me for it—that there was no contingency plan. He said:

Here I do not want to become involved in a war of words with the hon member. He knows that everything he expected of me was, in fact, forthcoming. He also knows that what he accused me of supposedly not doing, is without any foundation. He knows that. He knows of the SADF’s preparedness and planning. I therefore trust that he will put matters right. Let me say that that would be a magnanimous approach. What upsets me most about allegations of this nature is that they constitute a reflection, not on me as the political head of the SADF, but on the Defence Force itself.

That is nonsense and you know it.

As someone who professes to know the Defence Force, this hon member should also know who carries the responsibility for military operations and for contingency planning. His remarks, accusations and allegations are an indictment of the SADF and its very senior officers. It is their integrity, professionalism and competence that is primarily being encroached upon. They are the ones he rightfully owes an apology to.

It is an old habit of his to try to drive a wedge between me and the SADF. What he does not realise is that in the very nature of things the Defence Force takes note of these allegations and insinuations, but continues to do its work professionally and efficiently. In the process the hon member becomes completely cut off from reality.

Let me just mention, in passing, that after this attack by the hon member for Overvaal on 11 April, senior officers of the Defence Force lodged a personal protest with me. They protested at the fact that the hon member was using me, levelling accusations at me, in order to get at them. [Interjections.]

The hon member is free to attack me as much as he pleases. He is free to do so, but he must be careful that he does not encroach upon or impugn the honour, esteem and capabilities of the very institution that protects his own life and that of his fellow party members, because if that were to happen, he would be playing directly into the hands of those who want to topple the security of this country of ours.

I make a sincere appeal to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly to guide his party’s spokesman on Defence towards a proper perspective and a sense of reality. [Interjections.]

A country’s military posture must always be in step with the assessment of the threat against it. As the settlement process in South West Africa/Namibia gets into its stride once more, as we hope it will, and the peace process is put into effect in South-Western Africa, this must have an affect on the SADF and Armscor.

Let me immediately add, however: We have not yet entered into any utopia or haven of peace. There are still SACP/ANC and PAC terrorists who want to do their devilish work here. As far as committing acts of revolution, terrorism, violence and intimidation is concerned, the SADF is not sitting back with folded arms. Our policy is clear, and that is that this work of the devil is unacceptable to us. We must also take pro-active steps to combat it.

In any event, the aims of the ANC do not accord with South Africa’s declared course and policy of a meaningful and orderly broadening of the democratic base. We are not blind to efforts at presenting the ANC as a saintly and moderate body. We dare not allow ourselves to be misled by this or to permit ourselves to be caught on the wrong foot.

It is in the light of the overall climate of detente that there has been an increasing call, in the very recent past, for a reduction in national service. I shall be making an announcement about this at a later stage. At this stage I just want to say that it is understandable that in a time of relative peace the defence force of a country cannot maintain the same force levels as in times of extreme conflict. Yet the balance of power must be maintained. Ultimately the approach ought to be the following: The RSA needs a defence force in which the emphasis is placed on quality, as far as training and the optimal utilisation of manpower are concerned, and not on quantity.

Consequently, and with reference to this, let me now make a few remarks about Armscor. With the promising indications of a shift in the overall world picture and climate from a position of conflict and warfare to one of relative peace, the time has come to examine Armscor’s positioning too.

It was Langenhoven who said that the price of peace had to be paid in advance, whilst that of war had to be paid after the event. Pre-eminently our approach is therefore that the positioning of Armscor and the SADF should be one in which peace is protected and nurtured without forfeiting power and strength. Achieving that positioning means employing manpower, planning and products of quality that would serve as insurance against war or unexpected developments.

The task that consequently rests upon our Defence family’s shoulders is to show that it cares for all our people and their quality of life; that it cares for our environment—on that score we have a fine record; that it has, by the struggle it has waged, contributed towards bringing about peace when it was necessary; that it maintains a head-start when it comes to winning and that it manifests its expertise and capabilities in a commitment to the protection of peace and the development of our communities.

Of Armscor let me just say that technologically it is at the forefront. In the future one could be dealing with technology for peace, growth and development, and therefore also the creation of prosperity for those far beyond our borders. Armscor has become a respected participant on the international scene and on world markets. Proof of that lies in its participation in armaments exhibitions and its planned participation in others in the future. This positioning presents new challenges, but also new possibilities.

This positioning of the SADF and Armscor, which I have just set out, leads me to make certain announcements that will affect both members of the Defence family. The first relates to a committee of enquiry which will deal with a variety of matters.

In May 1984 I appointed the Geldenhuys Committee and instructed it to carry out an extensive investigation into possible adjustments to the SADF and Armscor with a view to meeting the challenges of the future. Inter alia the committee was to investigate the effects of economic realities, the security situation and the new constitutional dispensation on the Defence family.

The Geldenhuys Committee did an outstanding piece of work. Some of its recommendations and findings have laid the foundation for planning and for the functioning of the Defence family in the past few turbulent years. Some of the recommendations have been embodied in the White Paper on the Planning Process of the SADF which was tabled in Parliament this week. It is a fine document, one I trust will give hon members an insight into the operation and complexity of the Defence family.

The SADF and Armscor are dynamic organisations that keep pace with the demands of the times. Times change rapidly in this world of ours and new factors come to the fore which, of course, have an affect on both these organisations. These factors must be subjected to a thorough evaluation on a regular basis and must be properly evaluated. That is why this committee I am announcing today is based on the Geldenhuys Committee’s work. It is expected to evaluate the positioning and the needs of the Defence family, inter alia, in the light of the Geldenhuys Committee’s findings and recommendations. This committee is necessary to evaluate new factors and trends in the field of economic, social, political and security demands.

For that reason the committee will, inter alia, investigate the effect of environmental factors, such as the economic profile, on the SADF and Armscor, and also evaluations, expectations and possibilities arising from peace initiatives and legislation. The committee will specifically investigate the manpower needs and the employment of manpower in the SADF. Consequently matters such as the system of national service, the system of voluntary service and various forms of military service will have to receive attention.

A further task of this committee, and other bodies with which negotiations are in progress at present, is that of conducting a comprehensive investigation into aviation in South Africa. The Margo Commission did, in fact, investigate civil aviation, but this committee will investigate the SAAF, the SAA, Armscor and other possible branches, particularly in the sphere of manpower needs in relation to flying and related needs. I have already discussed this particular aspect of the committee’s terms of reference with my colleagues, the hon the Ministers of Transport and Administration and Privatisation. They have granted me their full support and co-operation for this purpose.

It is true that in the SADF at present several investigations relating to the committee’s terms of reference are in progress. These investigations can readily be incorporated into the work of the committee as a whole and can be linked, by way of subcommittees, to the work of the main committee. The chairman of the main committee is Gen Jan van Loggerenberg, Chief of the Air Force, and the members are Gen Kat Liebenberg, Chief of the Army, Mr Derek Cooper and Mr Marinus Daling of the private sector and Mr Johan van Vuuren, the Chairman designate of Armscor, with Brig Danie Jacobs as secretary. The committee is also empowered to co-opt members.

The committee will hear evidence, determine its own method of operation and, it is hoped, complete its work in approximately a year. Hon members of this Committee, in other words hon members of Parliament, are free to give evidence before this committee or to recommend persons to give evidence before this committee. Owing to the importance of the committee, I do not want to restrict it to a fixed time schedule at this moment. Depending on circumstances, interim reports can be furnished.

In brief, in organisations such as Armscor and the SADF where renewal, dynamism and purposeful management are the watchword, it is necessary to evaluate and formulate objectives on an in-depth and ongoing basis in the light of prevailing challenges and opportunities. On the basis of evaluations, this committee will, to a large extent, indicate the course to be adopted by the Defence family en route to the year 2000. It is an important committee, one which will prove decisive for our country’s future viability and security. It is a committee which must indicate how the Defence family is to keep at the forefront when it comes to security, technology and the employment of human resources.

I trust that this committee will have the cooperation of South Africa as a whole, because it is a committee which is to function in the interests of the security and future development of South Africa and all its people.

I should now like to say something about the citizen force and commandos. South Africa can be grateful for such prepared, well-conditioned, disciplined and dedicated citizen and commando forces. These people furnish their services in the midst of economic and other activities on which they are dependent for their existence. Many of them occupy middle-management and top-management posts in the community. Through their sacrifices and their military capabilities they have, in past years, helped the SADF to achieve the military successes which are on record. They are one of the forces that have maintained the peace process in South-Western Africa over the years.

In the light of the returning 24-month national servicemen and the members of the SA Cape Corps from South West Africa/Namibia, individuals who will now be available for military service in the Republic of South Africa, the intention is to lessen the burden on the citizen force and the commandos by calling them up for periods not exceeding 30 days from July 1989, if they are called up at all. If they are not called up during a specific year, they will in any event receive credit as if they had been called up that year. In addition the intention is not to call up citizen force members in the sixth cycle at all.

This development is made possible by the military successes we have achieved and because of our military preparedness. Let me state categorically and very clearly, however, that the requirements of security are the decisive factor. If the evaluations and requirements relating to security were to change, this arrangement would naturally have to be reconsidered. In this context hon members must take note of the rapidity with which a situation of relative peace can change, for example when Swapo terrorists disregarded the South West African settlement plan two weeks ago. This development must not prejudice our preparedness, and for that reason the situation will be closely watched.

It is common knowledge that the SADF is one of the major land utilisers. It is less well-known, however, that from time to time the SADF relinquishes certain fixed property so that the needs of bodies outside the military sphere can be accommodated. The Defence Force does not merely take, as many people allege; it also gives, and it gives a great deal. It serves South Africa and all its people in many respects.

In the recent past the SADF has, apart from smaller portions of land, relinquished approximately 1 346 hectares of land. To the SADF this has meant the loss of well-situated land and has resulted in essential training facilities having to be erected elsewhere at considerable cost.

In this regard let me now make a few announcements. I am specifically doing this in this debate so that hon members can be kept abreast of the planning, developments and prospects relating to certain of the SADF’s functions.

Firstly the Schurweberg Shooting Range at Pretoria is needed for Atteridgeville housing development. More than 350 ha of land are being relinquished in the process.

Secondly, approximately 750 ha of the Simon van der Stel Shooting Range near Cape Town is needed, partly for housing for Coloured people and partly for the envisaged extension of the D F Malan Airport. An alternate area has been purchased in the past financial year for approximately R1,8 million, and the expected construction of the shooting range will cost an estimated R3 million.

An area 1 000 ha in extent has been purchased at Brakkefontein in Atlantis as a training ground and for the establishment of the classification shooting range to replace the Simon van der Stel Shooting Range. There is a sufficiently large area on which to establish a unit on this land in the long term.

Thirdly there is the question of 2 SA Cape Corps at Eerste River. The Eskom complex at Grabouw has already been purchased as an alternative base for 2 SACC. At present the complex does not have adequate facilities to accommodate the unit. In consultation with the Department of Public Works and Land Affairs the Eskom complex is being leased to the firm Houwteq until the end of 1991. In exchange for the leasing, improvements to the value of R3 million are being erected by Houwteq. This includes a headquarters, sick-bay, store, roads and fencing. Further facilities for the completion of the base are being promoted in the building programme.

Fourthly, in regard to 3 SAI, the base for Coloured people at Kimberley, construction has begun on the base which is intended for 3 000 people. According to the planning that has been done, facilities must be ready to accommodate 1 000 persons in January 1990, another 1 000 by January 1991 and the remainder by January 1992.

This gives very clear evidence of the SADF’s willingness, where at all possible, to look to the social and environmental interests of the country’s inhabitants too.

I shall now deal with a few matters which crop up from time to time and about which I want to adopt a clear standpoint.

Recently questions and allegations have repeatedly come to the fore about the Citizen Force, the Commando Force and politics. With a view to the events in South West Africa/Namibia and the coming general election I have thought fit to clarify the policy in this regard once more.

Although, in terms of the Defence Act and the regulations promulgated in terms of that Act, there is no overall prohibition that can be imposed on members of the Citizen Force and the Commandos when it comes to participating in political activities, certain requirements are imposed on commanding officers from the lowest to the highest ranks.

Their conduct must always be such that they cannot be accused of partiality or discrimination towards their subordinates on the basis of any political considerations. Their conduct must not give offence to members under their command who hold different political views. What is more, this must create no embarrassment for the SADF.

Commanding officers of the Citizen Force and Commandos, in particular, must guard against becoming controversial political figures, because it goes without saying that that could make their positions untenable. Briefly, a commanding officer or officer of the SADF may not, by virtue of his position of authority:

• — persuade or influence another member of his unit or organisation to become a member of a political party;
• — participate in any demonstration, procession or any other activity promoting or prejudicing a political party while performing or undergoing service or training in terms of the Defence Act;
• — use or exploit his ties with the SADF to promote or prejudice the interests of a political party;
• — prejudice the SADF by virtue of his political activities;
• — thwart or cast suspicion on the role the SADF must play by virtue of any action or statement on his part;
• — distribute any political propaganda or literature promoting or prejudicing the interests of a political party amongst members of his unit or organisation;
• — use his military rank or military ties in any correspondence or notice relating to a political party;
• — use any military property or facility to promote or prejudice the interests of a political party.

It is a definite part of every commanding officer’s task, however, to keep the members under his command well-informed about matters relating to the services they perform in the SADF. To assist commanding officers with this task, the SADF headquarters and its Defence Force sections have expert personnel who co-ordinate this task and ensure that the necessary flow of information takes place.

I now come to a few matters that repeatedly crop up and are used against me or the SADF as propaganda or for the sake of political exploitation. One of the stories concerns the alleged use of Air Force helicopters in hunting expeditions in which Ministers are supposedly involved.

The most recent occasion was 6 March of this year and the speaker was the hon member for Brakpan. He simply drew the helicopter story out of a hat. Let me, once and for all, make the relevant policy very clear. Allegations about hunting from helicopters are never factually substantiated. The result is that no specific investigation can be carried out. General investigations, however, have furnished no proof that Air Force helicopters have been used, or are being used, for hunting purposes. In any event, no authorisation for such activities would be given, because this is contrary to SADF policy. I do hope I have now heard the last of this story.

On the same day the hon member took a shot in the dark about the construction of a swimming pool at my home. In the Press this story was dismissed as being so much nonsense. I refer to Die Burger en Beeld of 8 March. What is more, the hon the Deputy Minister of Defence challenged the hon member, on 10 March, to repeat his allegations outside Parliament. Here I am referring to Beeld of 10 March. The hon member, of course, maintains a deathly silence about the allegations. He knows them to be untrue. That is why he does not repeat those allegations in public.

I do, however, want to comment on the political methods employed by the hon member. I wonder whether he knows that his father played a very significant role in my life. He was the principal of the high school I attended in Pretoria. I had nothing but the utmost esteem, respect and appreciation for him. He was a man of unimpeachable character. Apparently this hon member is not travelling the same road. My well-intentioned advice to him is to take a leaf out of his father’s book. If he were to do so, we would be able to get rid of such pettiness and gossip-mongering in our political life.

Since the middle of last year there have also been snide reports and allegations about alleged South African Defence Force involvement in illicit dealings in ivory and rhino-horn. A board of enquiry was convened in regard to the ivory. Extensive investigations were instituted and many people were involved. The hon member for Bryanston knows what I am talking about …

He is in the other Chamber.

Very well, the hon member may convey that to him. He also participated in the investigation.

The findings of the board of enquiry were published on 8 December 1988. It appeared, amongst other things, that at no stage was the South African Defence Force involved in shooting elephants. It also appeared that there were people and bodies who wanted a total ban on trading in ivory and that the South African Defence Force was singled out as a convenient target.

This accords with the overall propaganda trends against the SADF. The Public Relations Directorate of the SADF, which does good work, is regularly swamped by enquiries, from uninformed and at times malicious journalists, which have nothing to do with the Defence Force. It is unfortunate that in certain circles there are all too frequently certain perceptions—or attempts to create the perception—of the SADF as the “bad guy”, the bully or the ogre. I want to ask this Committee to help me eliminate these unreasonable ploys of perceptions. It is unfair and unreasonable for the SADF always to be placed in the dock when it comes to matters that the SADF has nothing to do with.

Since November of last year reports have repeatedly appeared about the alleged involvement of two SADF members in the smuggling of rhinohorn from Angola. Apparently the people involved were two members of the South West African Territorial Force, one of whom has since resigned from the Force. The matter has been referred to the South West African Police for the necessary investigation. According to feedback I have had from the South West African Territorial Force, a dossier has been submitted to the Attorney-General of South West Africa for his decision and possible action.

To sum up let me state the following:

• — As an organisation the SADF is in no way involved in such illegal activities.
• — The SADF does not condone any such unlawful action on the part of its members. If such actions were to come to light, the law would take its course.
• — On the positive side, let me mention that evidence before the above-mentioned board of enquiry indicates that in areas where the Defence Force exercises control, the game flourishes and is, to a large extent, protected. I think the hon member for Bryanston will also endorse that.

Since South West Africa/Namibia is so prominently in the news at the moment, we shall increasingly find rumours doing the rounds. Some of these rumours originate in so-called knowledgeable circles. I am asking hon members to be careful and to ensure that they themselves are not carried along by such rumours. Tomorrow I shall speak about this at length when I discuss South West Africa.

A considerable number of questions are now being asked about the way in which the SADF is going to dispose of its movable and immovable property in South West Africa. I should like to clarify this issue:

• — Firstly, all facilities erected prior to 1983-84 were financed from the SADF’s budget. All facilities subsequently erected were established by funds transferred by the RSA Treasury to the South West African Treasury.
• — Secondly, for more than two decades the SADF has been in South West Africa. Facilities and infrastructure were developed to enable the SADF to carry out its task successfully.

The SADF’s approach is the following:

The last subject I want to refer to relates to South Africa’s relations with Mozambique. Articles and so-called authoritative reports to the effect that South Africa, but more specifically the SADF, supposedly supports Renamo, are still appearing. Allegations in this regard have frequently been refuted—here in Parliament too. Let me state clearly here that the SADF is not involved in granting assistance to Renamo. The Mozambique-South Africa Joint Security Committee reached the same conclusion. What is more, no RSA forces are physically involved in the protection of the Cahora Bassa power-line.

Mr Chairman, right at the beginning of my speech I should like to pay tribute on behalf of this side of the House to those who have paid the supreme sacrifice in the service of the fatherland during the past year by laying down their lives. We are proud of their memory and we share the grief of their next of kin.

We also wish to express our gratitude and appreciation to those who retired from the Defence Force on pension. We thank them very much for a lifetime of loyal service to the Defence Force. We share in the pride of those who have made some or other achievement to the benefit of the Defence Force. In this regard I should like to associate myself with the hon the Minister’s references to those senior and general officers who have retired, who have left on pension and who have been promoted, as well as with his remarks regarding Comdt Marais and Mr Johan van Vuuren.

As far as we are concerned, Armscor must indeed, as usual, be singled out for its outstanding achievements. I think we need to tell Armscor openly that South Africa would probably be lost in the military field without it. I do not think we could pay them a greater compliment than that. Armscor is also spreading its wings wider than just over South Africa and at the moment is already exporting arms to 26 other countries. This is a devastating blow to those people who sought to impose sanctions against our country.

†I also wish to congratulate the hon member for Sandton on his appointment as chief spokesman of the DP. We wish him well.

*I should like to refer to the few remarks which the hon the Minister has just made. Firstly, I should like to refer to his remark that we were ostensibly attacking the Defence Force. The hon the Minister probably noticed that a few of us laughed heartily when he did this, because we discussed it and I told them: “That is how we know ‘magteloos’ Malan. That is how we know him, that is an old ploy of his”. [Interjections.]

Order!

I withdraw it.

Order! There are two aspects. Firstly, the hon member has withdrawn his remark; thank you very much for that. Secondly, hon members must give the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech.

This practice of the hon the Minister of saying, whenever we attack him, that we are attacking the Defence Force, is an old ploy of his. That is how we know him, and I wish to tell the hon the Minister firstly that it is untrue. He should have listened to my speech in which I in fact accused him of this and said: “He should rather have listened to the generals”.

Secondly, I want to know why he is doing this. He is doing it in order to evade attacks on himself as political head. After all, that is how we know him! I accused him of this in the old days in the Other Place when I said that it was shameful that he was hiding behind Gen Constand Viljoen’s skirts when he did the same thing. Today he is hiding behind the skirts of the SADF. [Interjections.] In case hon members do not know it, one calls this a figure of speech.

It boils down to the fact that whenever we attack the hon the Minister, he does not answer us. He does not have the courage to come forward himself and reply to us. Then he says that we are attacking the Defence Force. I want to tell hon members something. I have already said this repeatedly in the past, but I want to say it again today: It is an insult to South Africa that its Minister of Defence, who is supposed to have a strong-man image, should in fact adopt this standpoint whenever we demand accountability from him. Then he says that we are attacking the Defence Force. He says this just like a little baby. [Interjections.] The other reason why he does it, is because he cannot answer our questions.

Order! I am hearing the hon member for Benoni’s voice too often. Hon members are now going to compel me to mention them by name.

The other reason why he does it, is that he does not wish to answer our questions. He cannot! My leader has made various speeches to which the hon the Minister has not reacted. I have asked the hon the Minister certain questions in my speech. He has not answered them. Now he wishes to hide away. I noticed a bitterness in him today which I have never seen before. I wonder whether this is because no one nominated him as a potential leader-in-chief, I just want to tell the hon the Minister that the CP shares the confidence which his caucus has in him in that we would not nominate him for anything either.

The hon the Minister referred to the hon member for Brakpan’s father. He said that the hon member’s father was such a good example to him. I think the hon member’s father had one chink point in his armour, and that was the training which he gave the hon the Minister. He told us that we should furnish proof regarding helicopters that had been used for hunting and that had been used for the NP. I want to ask him now, today, whether the hon the State President has ever been transported to a hunting ground in a Defence Force helicopter. Do hon members see? There I have him!

The accusation was that they were hunting from the helicopters!

They are taken to hunting expeditions and dropped off. After all, one cannot shoot with a .303 from a helicopter. That inanity comes from the hon the Minister of Defence. After all, one does not shoot from a helicopter! One takes a man, one goes and drops him off, then he walks on his own two feet and then he shoots, or does the hon the Minister not even know that? No, now that I have him in a corner, he cannot get away.

I wish to ask the hon the Minister whether it is true that the hon the State President was airlifted by helicopter and dropped off because he wished to hunt somewhere. Of course it is true! I want to ask him whether it is true that the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning was taken to an NP branch meeting by Defence Force helicopter. The hon the Minister admitted this in Parliament. Now he comes here today and throws his weight around. [Interjections.]

I want to ask the hon the Minister something about politics. A long list of rules regarding politics was submitted here today. Is the hon the Minister going to make them applicable to Maj Wynand du Toit? I challenge the hon the Minister to make them applicable to him. Then we shall see what happens.

I now wish to turn to the achievements of the Defence Force in the operational area. We share in the pride of the hon the Minister and everyone in this country at the outstanding achievements the Defence Force has made in the operational area. However, I should like to tell the hon the Minister something. Everywhere there are stories—one even comes across them abroad— about the statement which the hon member for Constantia made with regard to Cuito Cuana-vale. However, I think the hon the Minister should get to the truth about Cuito Cuanavale. They are telling us that we were given a hiding there. The hon the Minister and I know that we were not given a hiding there. The hon the Minister must do more about the matter.

As far as relations are concerned, I want to say that personal relations between the Official Opposition in the House of Assembly and the Ministry of Defence have reached a low ebb. One could go into who is to blame or who is not to blame, but it speaks volumes when the opposition has to appeal to the Head of State and the Head of State must intervene in order to ensure that we are kept informed.

Then there is the question of tours. This year there are Armscor and Defence Force tours. We do not feel like going on those tours because when one comes back the hon the Deputy Minister stands up and makes allegations about what happened there. What is more, the allegations are also false. I just want to say that I should like to see how many red faces there are the day I begin to talk about what has happened on tours. We shall not do so, however. The hon the Deputy Minister does not even know yet what parliamentary etiquette is.

I now want to say that this delicate issue of relations between the Official Opposition and the Ministry of Defence is in the hon the Minister’s hands. I also want to tell him that we will not hesitate, if necessary, to appeal to the Head of State once again. I really and truly hope that things will go better in the new year. I also wish to concede to the hon the Minister that I do not think it is the easiest thing on earth to get along with a bunch of lively CPs. [Interjections.]

My main theme this year is South West Africa and the implementation of Resolution 435. Our problem centres around the security aspects which we feel have been jeopardised owing to the fact that the Government allowed itself to be hoodwinked by Swapo. [Interjections.]

So many things have happened in South West Africa that I wish to highlight only a few of them. Firstly, I sketched a scenario for the hon the Minister last year. I told him that if Resolution 435 was accepted, this would of necessity lead to an election. All the indications were that that election would probably be won by Swapo. The question then is, what have we been doing in South West Africa for the past 23 years? Why all the sacrifices if Sam Nujoma is going to become president anyway and the Red flag is going to be hoisted? Why?

I wish to refer with approval in this regard to what the hon the Minister said on 24 August last year according to Hansard, col 15563:

I agree with him! However, it would now appear to us that the hon the Minister has gone back, because he is allowing Resolution 435 to be implemented and he is also clearly allowing a Swapo government to come to power. Surely he will then have a Marxist government and a “people’s democracy” there!

Must the war continue?

The war must not continue, but an unsatisfactory war is better than a worthless peace such as the one that is being negotiated now.

The second point I wish to dwell on is the handling of the security situation. It would appear to us from the briefings we have received that many preparations were made. We know that there was a contingency plan. I wish to say, however, that what we find disturbing is that there are a few cold facts.

The first of these is that before 1 April Swapo was still not north of the 16th parallel. Swapo was, in fact, in the south of Angola, south of the parallel. They were present there in large numbers; I should say the better part of 4 000 or 5 000. Its motive was known to everyone, namely to enter South West Africa. This fact cannot be disputed. The tremendous danger that would result if 1 000 or so Swapo terrorists were to end up in South West Africa with their arms and ammunition, was also fully appreciated. They would be like needles in a haystack. These facts were known and they cannot be disputed.

What happened then? Swapo did indeed infiltrate South West Africa on the night of 31 March/1 April. That is a fact. This is where our entire problem lies. There were warnings about what would happen. It happened! Swapo are now inside South West Africa and this was not prevented although it could have been prevented. That is why we say that the long and the short of the story is that the Government was hoodwinked by Swapo and that Swapo and Sam Nujoma have made a fool of everyone.

That is absolutely untrue!

The hon member will have a turn to speak! He is apparently in a state today. He should first calm down a little! [Interjections.]

The position today is as follows. There are Swapo and South Africa. Swapo and South Africa have gone through a harrowing time, and now South Africa is in a position to show everyone its lily white hands. South Africa abided by the rules— the rules of the game—but we lost the strategic advantage, whilst Swapo, which paid no attention to the rules, now has 1 000 terrorists with arms and ammunition inside South West Africa. [Interjections.]

In our view the Government, and specifically the hon the Minister, thought that they would get some “mileage”, or derive some advantage from having adhered to the rules. The mistake the hon the Minister made was that he, as the political head, did not negotiate strongly enough beforehand. The hon the Minister must have known on the evening of 31 March that they were coming in over a distance of 470km, and as the hon the Minister of Defence, he knew that once they were in he would not be able to get them out. The hon the Minister allowed them to come in. In this way Sam made a fool of him. The CP standpoint is that the Government was fully aware of the risk, and that they did not prevent it.

It was a very great failure. In any other civilised country the Minister responsible for this flop, this failure, would have been sacked, and the hon the Minister knows it. One example of this is the Falkland Islands, but in South Africa where the hon the Minister has allowed 1 000 Swapo infiltrators to come in, he simply sits here and everything is hunky-dory. As we have done on various occasions in the past, we once again ask him to resign as Minister of Defence of his own accord and not to leave it to the hon the State President to send him packing. He must choose the honourable course and go himself. [Interjections.]

With regard to the future of South West Africa, I want to say that it is a well-known fact that Swapo terrorists will shortly be able to return to South West Africa in terms of Resolution 435. We know that hundreds of armed terrorists are already there. I wish to know today in the public interest what contingency plan exists to prevent problems within South West Africa. My blood runs cold when I think of what would happen if thousands of Swapo terrorists were inside South West Africa and they were to resort to violence. What contingency plan exists for the thousands of armed Swapo members who are going to be inside South West Africa? Can the hon the Minister prevent this? Is it possible that he can prevent this? He must know that Swapo has already proved repeatedly that one cannot trust them. What lies in store for South West Africa? Have all these ghastly possibilities been thoroughly considered? Are these effective plans to prevent bloodshed on a large scale within South West Africa?

I conclude by addressing a serious appeal to the Government that they should rather reconsider the matter. Should they not by now be aware that large-scale bloodshed is probably going to take place in South West Africa? Should they not rather suspend Resolution 435 and seek other, safer methods of resolving the problem of South West Africa? The CP thinks they should do this. There is sufficient intellectual capacity in this country. Let us stand together and find another solution which will not lead to the bloodshed which lies ahead.

Mr Chairman, one really gets the shivers when one hears what the hon member for Overvaal says. If he were the Minister of Defence in South West Africa, I am afraid South Africa would be the polecat of the world today. [Interjections.] Sanctions, boycotts and disinvestment would be our fate. I shall come to the hon member for Overvaal later in my speech.

I am doubly privileged to participate in this debate today. It is a privilege to speak here as my party’s spokesman on defence for the first time. It is also a privilege to be debating this important Vote together for the first time.

Allow me first of all to express my thanks and appreciation to my predecessor, the hon the Deputy Minister of Education and Culture, for his competent leadership in our party’s defence committee during the past few years. He has always nurtured defence matters as being very precious. I should like to express the assurance that I have the interests of the defence family at heart too, and I look forward to the same cordial co-operation with the Defence Force and Armscor as in the past.

My sincere thanks go to the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister for the competent way—I want the hon member for Overvaal to listen—in which they perform their task. I should like to convey the congratulations of the entire Coloured community to the hon the Minister for the competent way in which he sees to South Africa’s security.

My congratulations also go to Gen Geldenhuys and Comdt Marais for the effective way in which they manage the Defence Force and Armscor, respectively. We would appreciate it if they would convey our House’s good wishes to all their staff.

Certain changes have taken place since we discussed this Vote last year. Certain good friends of this House have retired or will be retiring shortly. It is with regret that we on this side of the House take leave of Comdt Piet Marais. He has been at the helm of Armscor for the past 12 years. He is a great friend of the Coloured community. It was under his leadership that Armscor developed into the industrial giant it is today. On behalf of the whole of South Africa, we thank Comdt Marais today for the persistency displayed by him and Armscor. We wish him and his family a very pleasant period of rest.

We should like to convey a sincere word of welcome to Mr Johan van Vuuren, his successor. He has no easy task as the executive chairman of Armscor, but he can rest assured of the support of this side of the House.

We are also losing friends on the Defence front. Our best wishes go with Adm Syndercombe, Gen Holtzhausen and Gen Lemmer who are retiring after many years of service. We should like to convey our best wishes to Adm Putter who is the head of the Navy again, as well as our congratulations to Gens Meyer, Pickersgill, Bischoff and Witkop Badenhorst on their promotions and appointments. They can also rest assured that they have our support.

It was with appreciation that I took cognisance of what the hon the Minister had said about 2 SACC and the 3 SAI training base at Kimberley. The SACC and its needs have always received high priority among those of us on this side of the House. We therefore thank the hon the Minister for the announcement that this unit is now going to be moved. The facilities at the present locality have not complied with the essential needs of such a prestige unit for some time now. We are grateful that the Defence Force has shown understanding throughout for this important training institution’s needs and we look forward to the day on which the SACC will move to its new locality.

We appreciate that and assure the hon the Minister that the Coloured soldier, whether in the permanent force or as a volunteer, serves the security of this country faithfully in every respect. That is because the Coloured soldier in the Defence Force is not treated as a Coloured person, but primarily as a soldier just like any other soldier. I am very pleased about that, because in that way the Defence Force is showing us the way.

My party and I have no axe to grind with the hon the Minister. On the contrary, he does his task extremely well and we can only convey our appreciation to him for doing so. The hon the Minister and his department lend high priority to the security of our country. All the inhabitants of our country benefit as a result. We convey our appreciation to him for doing so.

I should like to dwell on one point for a moment. Last week—I think it was on 11 April— the hon member for Overvaal launched a disgraceful attack on the hon the Minister in this House. The hon member was bitterly unhappy about conditions in South West Africa, and placed all the blame on the hon the Minister. The hon member was so angry that he demanded the dismissal of the hon the Minister, as he did again a moment ago.

Since I myself have a responsibility in respect of the Defence Force and security, I should like to give the hon member for Overvaal a few friendly words of advice. I do this in the first place because he is the chairman of a party’s study group just as I am. In the second place I do it because I rather like the hon member for Overvaal. [Interjections.] With the necessary guidance I think he can develop into a top-class defence spokesman. [Interjections.]

I find it incomprehensible that the hon member for Overvaal feels the hon the Minister was caught with his pants down as far as the Swapo infiltration is concerned. What about the generals and the military planners? Were they also caught with their pants down?

No! [Interjections.]

I see. I think the hon member for Overvaal has a good military background. If I am not mistaken, he was a major. Surely then he should know that a military operation is subject to proper planning and the determination of the best course of action.

I want to continue talking to the hon member for Overvaal. If the best course of action could lead to international repercussions, the political head must grant permission for this course of action. I am telling the hon member these things so that he can realise that channels of communication often work better from the bottom upwards. Surely he knows that. With such irresponsible statements he was implying that the whole Defence Force had been caught with their pants down.

That is not true!

Yes, that was what the hon member was claiming.

It is not.

I want to turn from this subject …

You had better! [Interjections.]

… by addressing a word of advice to the hon member for Overvaal. The hon member’s jealousy and envy of the hon the Minister emerged clearly from his speech. I want to tell the hon member not to allow his jealousy of the hon the Minister to consume him to such an extent that he also hurts the Defence Force.

I want to say a few brief words about South West Africa. In its excellent handling of the matter, the Defence Force once again proved why it is acknowledged as the most formidable defence force in Africa. After its military victory, the Defence Force also shone as a co-negotiator. When the settlement foundered, the Defence Force remained calm. The Defence Force proved that it honours and complies with accords and agreements.

The inhabitants of South West Africa must realise that they also have a responsibility. In the military sphere the SADF and the South West African Territory Force won the war. While they were involved in the war, they also made a huge contribution to the local inhabitants. We could see to what extent the Defence Force was involved in enhancing those people’s quality of life. The humanity with which the Defence Force treated the local population is proof of its task as a peace force.

This side of the House is eminently aware that peace is not descending on us all of a sudden. Although the settlement plan is on track once again, Swapo has proved that they play the game by their own rules. It appears that their rules are based on the abuse of certain agreements. The Defence Force’s purposeful action after Swapo’s violation is further proof of its preparedness. Unfortunately the hon member for Overvaal does not agree on this point.

I know you are deaf.

No! I am not deaf. I hear very well.

The Defence Force is withdrawing honourably from South West Africa. A battle against terrorists has been conducted for more than 20 years. The battle has been concluded successfully, because after more than two decades of war Swapo cannot show anything that it has conquered.

With a view to the changing circumstances in South West Africa, we can deduce that the SADF will concentrate on the internal situation to a greater extent. My plea is that the Defence Force will use the experience it has gained in South West Africa here in South Africa. It must retain its good image as a peacemaker and we as leaders of our community must make our contribution to this too.

Peace has not been established in South Africa yet, and we must work towards this objective most earnestly. We must not expect the Defence Force to effect this peace in isolation. It needs everyone’s assistance—everyone who is serious in his intent and who is prepared to rise and square his shoulders in order to attain this objective. With the words “square his shoulders” I mean we must protect the Defence Force against those who want to discredit it. The Defence Force has already made an enormous contribution to our community. I should like to thank the hon the Minister for the assistance we are granted from time to time when it is required.

I now want to express a few thoughts about Armscor. Armscor has established itself as an industrial giant and enjoys great international esteem. I am convinced that the changed circumstances in South West Africa can have a direct influence on Armscor’s planning. If new weapons are developed now, we can no longer give them that important certificate of “battle proven”, but Armscor’s products remain sought after and we follow its progress with interest.

Our community can refer to the Defence Force and to Armscor with pride. They do good work in the interests of South Africa. I think in many cases they deserve more support from all the inhabitants of South Africa.

Mr Chairman, I take great pleasure in following on the hon member for Riversdal. He delivered an excellent induction sermon here and, if he keeps on like this, he will receive calls to many congregations; who knows, perhaps he will be called to higher service like the hon member for Mamre. I also congratulate him on his election as the LP chief spokesman on defence.

On behalf of the party to which I belong, I also want to express condolences to the next-of-kin of those who made the supreme sacrifice during the past year. We are grateful for this willingness on the part of the people of South Africa to make sacrifices, and we honour their memory.

A very brief word of thanks to all the senior officers who are retiring. They have served South Africa with dignity and honour. Our congratulations to their successors.

I appreciate the announcements which the hon the Minister of Defence made here this afternoon. I am referring to announcements concerning manpower needs, the system of national service, use of the Citizen Force and Commandos and an inquiry into aviation. I think this is evidence that the SADF is a dynamic organisation under the hon the Minister’s leadership which is in the vanguard and always complies with the demands of the times. We look forward eagerly to the findings which will arise from thee inquiries.

†I want to congratulate the hon member for Sandton on his appointment as chief spokesman on defence for the DP.

*Before I come to the hon member for Overvaal, I want to express my thanks to the political chiefs of the SADF. The matter is not as simple as the hon member for Overvaal would like to pretend here. It is impossible to separate political decision-making and Defence Force action instantly. I am grateful, and I think South Africa is grateful, for the political chiefs which the SADF has had over the past two decades. I think they were the right men at the right time under extremely difficult circumstances. We want to tell those men that we and the rest of South Africa are proud of them.

Just a few comments on what the hon member for Overvaal said.

Start with the helicopter!

The hon member for Overvaal must be a stranger in Jerusalem.

He is!

Eminent military experts and diplomats throughout the world agree that South Africa has emerged from this situation with honour. Nevertheless the hon member for Overvaal calls for the hon the Minister of Defence’s resignation. Let us spend just a moment examining the consequences if what the hon member proposed had become operative during the night of 31 March.

What did I propose?

The hon member proposed that immediate action should be taken against members of Swapo who were south of the 16th parallel. By implication that proposal means that Resolution 435 would have been suspended right there. I want to point out to the hon member what the consequences of this would have been. The SADF would immediately have been branded internationally as the aggressor. Resolution 435 would have been suspended immediately. The timetable for Cuban withdrawal would immediately have come to an end. The SADF would have had to move in again without international support with the full Cuban force still present and then the war would have started all over again. If that is the scenario which that hon member’s party supports, they should spell it out clearly to South Africa. [Interjections.]

Those hon members say that they are not attacking the SADF but they are attacking its political chiefs. Nevertheless the hon member for Losberg, when he was pointing to the lack of preparedness of the security forces, referred specifically at some stage to Swapol and he quoted a Swapol officer as having said that they had not been all that prepared. In other words, it was a direct attack by the hon member’s party on the security forces but, when the CP had the opportunity at a briefing session to question the man who is in command on the ground, Gen Gouws, it did not even raise this important point on which it is basing its argument.

Was that briefing confidential?

Order! I think the hon member for Overvaal could give the hon member a chance to proceed now. The hon member may proceed.

The hon member appealed to the hon the Minister to remove the misconception about Cuito Cuanavale and Calueque. Once more, again from CP ranks, the hon member for Soutpansberg stood up here and said our men had been humiliated at Cuito Cuanavale. If we are to correct that distorted impression, the hon member should also start with his own party. I shall leave the hon member for Overvaal at that point. Perhaps just a last comment. Anybody— the hon member himself is an expert par excellence on counterinsurgency—knows that at the end of the day the point at issue is a political solution and that one cannot wage war forever in a specific area.

During the decisive naval battle of Trafalgar, Adm Nelson was mortally wounded and his last words on the deck of his flagship were: “I have done my duty”. The SADF has reached the end of nearly two decades of specific military involvement in South West Africa/Namibia. The SADF can undoubtedly claim to have done its duty and completed its task successfully.

Unlike the Americans in Vietnam and unlike the Russians in Afghanistan, the SADF return as victors. It is interesting that this war which the Russians lost in Afghanistan is the first war that they have ever lost, whereas the SADF won under the same conditions. The SADF successfully attained every objective which it set itself.

The SADF prevented—this was the most important objective— the balance of power in Southern Africa from being disturbed and Russian expansionism from obtaining a foothold in a specific area. According to the domino principle known of old, it is common knowledge that an action which was started in Angola was to stretch across the Caprivi and Botswana to end in Pretoria. This action was successfully stemmed and the Russian surrogate forces, the Cubans and Fapla, were decisively defeated. I have no doubt that this bloody nose which the Russians and their surrogate forces got here is one of the reasons that they have suddenly changed their policy now as well.

Against this background, the accusation which is usually aimed from leftist ranks at the security forces, as if they were engaged in an apartheid war in South West Africa, is devoid of all truth.

†The SADF has never been used by anybody to perpetuate apartheid, its main task has been to protect the interests of South Africa and South West Africa. In his book Challenge: Southern Africa within the African Revolutionary Context Venter points out that many of the original grievances that sparked the insurgency have disappeared along the way. He said that old fashioned apartheid is nearly dead in Namibia and he actually illustrates this point by the following incident: When a White sergeant of 101 Battalion asked a wounded terrorist why he was fighting for Swapo the youngster replied that he was fighting against apartheid. The sergeant than asked what he meant by “apartheid”. He answered: “I cannot go into a White bar, marry a White madam if I want to and I have to carry a pass in a White area.” “You fool”, the sergeant said in amazement, “Where did you hear that nonsense?” Mr Chairman, he did not use the word “nonsense”, but I shall leave it at that. He told him: “All the pubs in South West have been open for years, and they have changed the law: If you want to marry a White madam, you can, if you can find one who is willing. And nobody carries passes any more.”

What a tragedy! That which Swapo soldiers are prepared to die for— the abolition of so-called apartheid—has in fact been in existence for the past decade. I think it is high time that they be informed correctly, perhaps by the world media now stationed in South West Africa/Namibia.

*The SA Defence Force also succeeded in eliminating Swapo as a military factor. Swapo could not succeed in establishing a single base in South West Africa and today they are exactly where they were in 1966 when this war began. They could not succeed in establishing a single liberation zone. In 1986 they had already lost 10 000 men. Through the agency of the SA Defence Force, Swapo lost its strong-man image and was forced to the negotiating table as a loser. Its recent efforts to shake off this image of a loser have failed miserably and now in addition it stands in the international dock as an organisation which cannot keep its word while against this the security forces received international acclaim for their correct conduct in a delicate situation.

Meanwhile a disturbing event is taking place which requires urgent attention. One could have expected that Swapo would not sit still. A television programme which was financed privately in the USA, South Africa Now, has been released. The intention is supposedly to fill a void which arose in consequence of the state of emergency in South Africa. The media are being restricted here now and suddenly South Africa has to receive international attention again. During a preview in the office of a Senator who is in the vanguard of the sanctions campaign against South Africa visual material is shown suggesting that the security forces had instantly shot Swapo terrorists whom they had captured.

I want to make only two comments now on this. Right from the start the SA Defence Force adopted the standpoint that the issue in South West Africa was “to win the hearts and minds of the people”. Who would be so stupid at this stage of the game to antagonise the local population?

Nevertheless it is equally well known that Swapo itself has a way of shooting its wounded instead of taking them back with its forces to Angola. In other words, these people who are now being exhibited on the screen as if the security forces had shot them, ten to one were shot by Swapo itself. I am pleased that an investigation is already afoot to inquire into these matters. They must be scotched once and for all and in good time.

I also want to say that another plus in favour of the SA Defence Force is that it is not leaving a vacuum on its withdrawal from South West Africa. Through its agency, the South West African Territory Force has been built up to a strength of 30 000. One must expect that, if Swapo loses the election, it may return to the bush. Then the SA Defence Force will have an effective force there, however, which will be able to handle such a security situation which may arise. In addition, if Swapo loses, we are going back; but then we cannot be accused of not having gone out of our way to bring about peace in that part of the world. We also owe it to our own boys to say that we have done everything in our power. The fact of the matter, however, is that Swapo will then be fighting from a situation in which it will not have international support either. The point which I want to make is that the SA Defence Force, through its far-sightedness, did not leave a vacuum in Namibia on its withdrawal.

Bearing everything in mind, I want to conclude by saying that there is no doubt that the SA Defence Force has realised its objectives. After such a war the question is always asked: Was it worthwhile? Was it necessary to die for this? The reply to this is indubitably “yes”.

Mr Chairman, on the question of defence it is noteworthy how boycotts can be counter-productive. I remember Mr Harry Oppenheimer pointing out a few years ago that the practical effects of arms embargoes had been the build-up of a large arms industry in South Africa, capable of supplying almost all the country’s military needs. However, Mr Oppenheimer also stressed the fact that as usual it was the Blacks who were paying for military independence through the receipt of less social assistance.

For years now defence expenditure has been in the region of billions of rand. In the past the real reason for this large-scale expenditure has been the attacks of Swapo and the ANC. It remains to be seen whether the peace initiative in Namibia will result in a reduction of the military activities and therefore a reduction in the defence expenditure.

What is clear, however, is that the maintenance of the apartheid system is costing the South African taxpayers an enormous amount of money in financing increased defence needs. It has also resulted in the development of what is practically a new industry in South Africa— the armaments industry. Not only is South Africa meeting its own arms requirements, but it is also exporting arms. It has produced its own specialised Ratel, a recognised fighting vehicle which has been in service not only in South Africa, but also in other African states.

A few years ago the Swiss armaments magazine International Defence Review stated that the international arms embargo on South Africa had allowed South Africa to become the equal of Sweden and the United States. In the understanding of detonics, its frequency-hopping radio systems were also the best and it had developed the world’s most effective mine-proof vehicles. South Africa also had the capability to build its own submarines and helicopters. The United Nations Security Council’s arms embargo had, on the other hand, resulted in a Shackleton aircraft still being used for long-range reconnaissance.

In South Africa we have the anomaly of a powerful defence force resting almost entirely on the shoulders of only the White citizens. This has led to many disputes and much dissension. Compulsory military service applies only to Whites. Amongst the Whites there are objections to compulsory conscription and during the past few years there have been a growing number of calls to end conscription.

We have always had some White conscripts refusing to do military service on the grounds of conscientious objection. The ECC, the End Conscription Campaign, has been motivated by these objections and usage of conscripts in the past to maintain South Africa’s illegal occupation of Namibia, and even presently in the implementation of apartheid policies inside South Africa.

Many churches and civil rights groups have supported the ECC, and thus military conscription for Whites has also introduced a racial dimension into sensitive areas like domestic activities—for example when the SADF was used to quell disturbances in the townships.

I personally am not sure that a professional army will be an improvement on the present conscripted army. Although the present army is conscripted from Whites only, its members have a social consciousness and this element is of particular importance.

At this stage of our historical development in South Africa, when an increasing number of Whites are turning against the system of apartheid, as can be witnessed, everyone knows that one of the major reasons for our having an over-extended defence force is the apartheid system.

A White Paper on Defence has given the infiltration of ANC insurgents from Southern African states as another reason for the expansion of the Defence Force to increase its aerial protection capabilities.

In 1982 amendments to the Defence Act provided for conscripts who had done their national service to be placed in a controlled reserve after five years, whereafter they would be liable for allocation to their local commandos.

A United Nations agency has stated in a recent report that more than one million people have been killed and 11 million displaced by the conflict in Angola and Mozambique and that it has cost the nine countries of the Southern African Development Co-ordinating Council an estimated sum of $60 billion. Children in particular have been badly affected by these wars. The pending independence of Namibia and the ending of the military conflict in that area does not only come as a blessing to Southern Africa, but has also raised hopes for a quick ending to the fighting in Mozambique.

We realise how important it is to set South Africa in a new direction. If South Africa can sincerely adopt a new policy, there can soon be reconciliation between Blacks and Whites to the advantage of all of us. In this regard I wish to add my voice to those calling for the immediate release of Nelson Mandela. We must remember the statement by the famous French philosopher, Voltaire, who said: “I may differ with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it.” We all know that Mr Mandela essentially stands for peace and reconciliation between Blacks and Whites. Whilst it is said that the ends that he employed in the past did not justify the means, he recommended that we take into consideration the feelings of inhumanity his ethnic community has been forced to suffer simply because of the laws that we nice guys have passed in these Chambers. For peaceful progress in South Africa and the rapid scaling down of the Defence Force we call upon the Government of the day to allow Mr Mandela to take up his rightful place in our community.

Mr Chairman, I stand here today as a newly-appointed defence spokesman for a new political party, the DP, now represented in this Parliament. I would like to thank the hon the Minister and other hon members who have already spoken today for the good wishes they have expressed. I am conscious of the sensitivity of this portfolio and I will do my very best to represent my party in a responsible and honest manner.

Your country as well.

And my country, yes. That goes without saying.

The Government and all hon members as well are entitled to know where we stand on the defence of our country and what our attitude will be towards the Ministry of Defence, as also towards the Defence Force. The DP believes that South Africa requires a strong, non-racial, motivated, well-trained and well-equipped Defence Force, consisting of a professional standing army, backed up by volunteer reserves. The function of the Defence Force should primarily be to defend the Republic from outside aggression and to defend our borders and our coastline. We believe that the Defence Force must be a truly national institution, free from party politics and free from any form of discrimination.

In order to preserve the Defence Force’s national character, to ensure its political neutrality and to promote accountability for its actions the DP believes that a standing committee of Parliament should on an ongoing basis examine the policy and review the activities of the SADF.

It is my duty to state during this, the very first defence debate in which the DP is participating, the attitude of my party towards two important issues confronting the young people of South Africa today. I refer to conscription and to conscientious objection.

The DP recognizes that there are serious security constraints implicit in the presence of expatriate and foreign forces in large numbers in the Frontline States, and of the volume and sophistication of military equipment in such states. The Cubans, for instance, and the currently hostile Swapo forces are a fact, not a dream. No matter what our feelings may be, this is not the moment to call for the immediate abolition of military conscription. However, we are committed to phasing out military conscription as this becomes feasible.

The reasons for this policy are as follows. I will state them. Firstly, conscription presently applies only to White male citizens, which places, in our view, an unfair burden on this group. It is also neither politically feasible nor desirable to extend conscription to other sections of the population under the present Constitution and while apartheid continues to live. Secondly, the present system applicable to objections to military service is too restrictive. Thirdly, conscription is a wasteful and an inefficient means of recruiting manpower and it is damaging to our economy. Fourthly, conscription is disruptive of family life and of the careers of the people whom it affects. Finally, conscription promotes—and it really does— the brain drain from South Africa.

The DP believes that the proposed regular standing army should be backed up by volunteer reserves recruited on a non-racial basis to provide reserve troops in cases of sudden escalation of threat and to preserve the military traditions of the part-time forces, which have enriched the SADF so enormously over the years.

I would like very briefly to deal with the rather difficult question of conscientious objection. Until the system of compulsory military service has been phased out, the DP recognises the right of individuals who do not wish to be conscripted into the Defence Force to do specified alternative service on application. Such service should be of longer duration than the period of military service, but ought to be productive and, where possible, should make use of the qualifications and of the experience of the individuals concerned.

My own personal approach to this portfolio will be a positive one. I will be concerned to ensure that the Defence Force is kept out of the party political arena, but obviously I will be critical if the Defence Force descends into the sphere that should be the domain of the politicians.

It is in this spirit that I say that it is clear from the recent events occurring in northern South West Africa/Namibia that South Africa has gained much in diplomatic stature worldwide. Similarly, when the crisis erupted at the beginning of this month, the security forces were very quickly able to cope with an explosive and highly dangerous situation. In this I would like to compliment our security forces and their leadership.

I would like also at this moment to extend to the families of all those men who died in action our deepest sympathy. I want to say that sons and their husbands and fathers who died will not be forgotten by our country. I would like also to wish all those soldiers and policemen who were wounded, and who are presently recuperating, a very speedy recovery to full health.

After having achieved these diplomatic gains, it is most disturbing to read in the media the allegations made against the SADF, which began appearing a day or two ago under such headings as “SA bully-boy tactics”, “security forces shot villagers”, “atrocities in Namibia” and so on. It is critical to the future of South West Africa/Namibia and to the reputation of our country that these accusations be definitively answered and not brushed aside. I welcome, therefore, the announcement made yesterday by the Administrator-General, Mr Louis Pienaar, of the setting up of a permanent commission of enquiry under a highly respected Windhoek advocate to probe allegations made against the Defence Force. I trust that this commission will commence its work immediately and I hope that this commission will go a long way, firstly, to arrive at and publish the truth, and secondly, to dispel the unfortunate image which is beginning to develop in the world media.

If we are to maintain the diplomatic high ground which South Africa has achieved, not only must the SADF abide by both the letter and the spirit of all the agreements concluded, but the security forces must, even in the most trying circumstances, also exercise the greatest restraint in the performance of their duties.

In preparing for this debate I read, inter alia, the White Paper on the Planning Process of the South African Defence Force which has just been published. I regret to say that it shed very little light on the subject which it was intended to cover. Allow me to quote a not untypical paragraph, paragraph 35 on page 8. I hope the hon the Minister will quickly have a look at that paragraph. It reads as follows, and I quote:

I must confess that, although the language purports to be English, it goes way above my understanding. I challenge the hon the Minister or any Government member on this side to explain the contents of the paragraph which I have just read. I am willing to put money on the proposition that the hon the Minister does not have the vaguest notion of what the writer is trying to convey in that paragraph.

I understand management and you do not!

I ask the hon the Minister to read that paragraph and tell hon members what that paragraph says. I actually do understand English, but I do not understand that paragraph.

Do you really not understand it?

No. Seriously though, surely papers of this nature which are intended to convey information should be reduced to a form and couched in a language which is readily understandable by its target reader. The document from which I have quoted is of very little value to the ordinary parliamentarian for the very reason that I have mentioned.

In conclusion I would like to look ahead perhaps a year or more. In all likelihood, in a year and a half or perhaps two years from now, we hope that our forces will no longer be in Namibia, neither will there be any South African military involvement in Angola. The task of the Defence Force will then be the protection of the borders of the Republic, covering thousands of kilometres of coastline and the borders of Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Mozambique and so on.

New strategic considerations will come into play. Diplomacy and good neighbourliness will become as crucial as the military component. I believe that the very nature of the SADF will doubtless undergo change. The emphasis will shift from the sheer numbers of recruitments to the mobility of highly sophisticated and well-trained units. Mobility is going to become the key with our very long borders in the years that lie ahead.

The question of equipment is going to become paramount, even more paramount than it is today. If expenditure is to be kept within manageable limits, priorities will have to be very strictly defined and will have to be adhered to. Above all, greater attention will have to be given to ensuring the optimum use of available manpower. We will have to think about the complete re-equipping of the SA Air Force within the next two to four years. A wastage of skills in this new scenario has to be avoided.

There are many challenges which lie ahead, and even more which I have not mentioned and which I have perhaps not even thought about. I hope that the hon the Minister will give us the benefit of his further thinking during this debate. Thank you for hearing me out.

Will the DP ever use the Defence Force internally?

The DP’s standpoint on that issue is as follows: We believe that the primary role of the Defence Force is to guard South Africa against aggression from outside. We believe that the keeping of internal security inside the country is the role of the Police Force. However, we acknowledge that there may in time arise circumstances in which law and order breaks down and in which event the SA Police Force cannot cope. In those circumstances the country has the right to use the Defence Force as a back-up in order to maintain law and order and to protect individuals and property. However, if this happens, it is our belief that the Defence Force should act independently of the police. It should be there on a limited basis, as a back-up only, separately identifiable and under its own commanders. That is the view of my party. That is also my view on that question. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, before I react to the hon member for Sandton, I want to refer to a matter which affects us all. We know that 20% of the onslaught against South Africa is military and the other 80% is in another sphere. Those of us sitting here are involved with that 80%. If we allow our members of Parliament and the parliamentary institution to be detracted from and disparaged, and suspicion to be constantly cast on the integrity of members of Parliament, our efforts to combat that 80% of the onslaught will not be successful.

I am referring specifically to recent reports in the Press, for example in Die Burger as well as in today’s English-language newspapers. After reading those reports every member of Parliament is compromised in the eyes of his voters. I take exception to reports of that kind which generalise and even make me feel embarrassed when I face my voters because I feel I have also been compromised in the eyes of my voters in respect of this matter. I am appealing to the Government to deal with this matter in the correct way as soon as possible so that an end can be put to the casting of suspicion on members of Parliament, which is frequently totally unfounded, so that we can restore the integrity of every member of Parliament.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

No, I do not have time to reply to the hon member’s question now.

The time has come for us to weigh up the role, the unproven achievements, of the opposition in respect of events in Southern Africa, against the achievements of the governing party. The NP’s successes are an embarrassment to the Official Opposition, in the person of the hon member for Overvaal. The greater their embarrassment, the greater their acerbity becomes. At the same time their mealy-mouthed and sanctimonious overtures to the Defence Force are nothing but a political approach pure and simple; mere political opportunism.

I want to dwell briefly on the DP. The DP is barely 14 days old, and I expected—I want to congratulate the hon member for Sandton because he is the chief spokesman on Defence for this party—that hon member to say far more about the policy of the DP in his first speech.

That is what you wrote yesterday!

The hon member tried somewhat tongue in cheek to sail through between the interests of the DP and the interests of the old PFP. It is well-known that at present the DP is still negotiating with the hon member for Claremont on whether or not to accept him as a member of that party. The hon members of the DP are the same people who were in the PFP. I expected the hon member for Sandton to adopt certain standpoints of principle today in respect of matters on which we disagreed with the old PFP in the past.

The most left wing of all the left-wingers in the ranks of the opposition, namely the hon member for Claremont, finds the principles and the policy of the DP acceptable, and that is why he wants to join them. [Interjections.] The hon member for Claremont is a member with links and loyalties which reach far beyond the boundaries of our parliamentary democracy. That hon member finds the DP’s principles and policy acceptable, and this after the hon member for Claremont left the old PFP owing to a standpoint of principle. He is an hon member who never lets an opportunity pass to denigrate the security services and cast suspicion on them, and yet he finds the DP’s principles, standpoints and policy acceptable.

In the DP we find members who support the unbanning of the ANC, the legalisation of the SACP and co-operation with the UDF. Today the hon member adopted a soft attitude towards national service. He spoke about the phasing out of national service. His standpoint has always been that we must do away with national service. The hon member did not listen either when the hon the Minister announced today that an investigation of this entire matter had been ordered. Yet the hon member went ahead and advocated that it be phased out.

The hon member for Randburg, who is also a member of that party, supports negotiations with the ANC, which is an organisation which advocates violence, with a view to the establishing of a new Constitution for South Africa. He considers the communistically-inspired Freedom Charter to be a suitable alternative to the Constitution of South Africa. How is it possible that they are suddenly no longer soft on national security? Have they abandoned their principles? I expected the hon member for Sandton to adopt a standpoint on these fundamental matters today. Until the DP has adopted standpoints of principle on these matters they are just as soft on security as the old PFP was.

You are soft on corruption!

Be careful what you say.

You cannot provide security anyway.

That hon member should allow me to make my own speech.

Show us that sign!

Yes, that hon member who is so talkative recently gave the Black power salute, and he is a member of the DP. I cannot understand how hon members who have such divergent standpoints of principle, could find common ground. I therefore consider it politically suspicious and very opportunistic when they make the sanctimonious speeches they made here today. This is merely aimed at gaining votes during the forthcoming election.

One can only ask oneself with a sigh what it would have been like in South Africa during the past few years if the hon members of the DP had dictated Defence Force policy. Based on the fact that they refuse to adopt standpoints of principle on these matters, and based on their achievements of the past—they are now wearing a mask which they did not wear then—I submit that the DP is a party which stands for capitulation.

On the other hand the CP is a party which is “trigger happy”. After the events which took place on 1 April their leader appeared on television and advocated immediate and forceful steps, the suspension of Resolution 435, the expulsion of Untag, and in so many words, the continuation of the war until all resistance had been wiped out. I imagine that in his mind’s eye the hon the leader of the CP saw a Boer commando marching against this wave of invading Blacks from Central Africa, and within days mowing them down so that nothing remained of them. [Interjections.] The total effect of the words of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition was simply a war without end.

A few days ago the hon member for Overvaal stood up in this Chamber and launched a reckless and uncontrolled attack on the hon the Minister of Defence. I want to associate myself with other speakers who said that this attack amounted to nothing but a motion of no confidence in the South African Defence Force. I sat and listened to that hon member with shock. [Interjections.] He is the shadow Minister of Defence in South Africa, but he is unable to control his own anger and emotions.

If the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition had been here this afternoon I would have asked him whether he would appoint that hon member as the Minister of Defence if they were to take over the Government, which will never happen in any case. I can tell hon members today that the reply would be no. Even hon members of the House of Representatives reject that hon member as an alternative Minister of Defence. That day the hon member for Overvaal was an embarrassment to every White in this country. It is a pity that the gallery was not full of CPs that day to witness the hon member’s antics.

In the few minutes I still have left I want to say a few words about Swapo. Swapo, a terrorist organisation we are acquainted with, which is supported by the Soviet Union and has a philosophy of violence and the violent usurping of power, has over the years adopted a very clever strategy of relying on anti-South African sentiments and on sympathy and compassion for the so-called oppressed masses.

Swapo used the world media and recruited allies in the media itself, in world opinion, in overseas governments, in Cuba, in the Soviet Union and even in the UNO. However, these allies of Swapo were nothing but its international power base. This was a power base which gave it moral sanction, as well as material aid, for its acts of terror. Swapo wanted to launch its attack on South West Africa on 1 April from this power base. When South Africa remained calm and controlled and did not do what either the DP or the CP would have done, those allies had to acknowledge, tongue in cheek, that the South African negotiators were right.

We would really be naive if we believed that the events since 1 April will be Swapo’s last attempt to show its contempt for Resolution 435. It is no wonder that there have already been attempts at disinformation. There have already been attempts at disinformation by means of reports on so-called “atrocities” ostensibly perpetrated by the South African forces in the north of South West Africa. The world carefully remains silent on the ruthless way in which Swapo murders, maims and destroys.

I found it upsetting that while the Mount Etjo Conference was in progress the Secretary-General of the UNO wanted to bend the knee to Swapo. If South Africa had allowed that, the world and the UNO would never again have had a moral basis to take a stand against international terrorism.

Now I want to ask how the CP’s clever Minister of Defence would have fared at Mount Etjo. He is uncontrolled, irresponsible, impulsive and politically crude and thoughtless. [Interjections.]

I would have liked to move a motion of confidence in the hon the Minister of Defence today. Actually I am doing so by what I am saying. The hon the Minister is a man who has already proved his ability as a military strategist in practice; what is more he has also proved his ability to take the right decision as the political head of the Defence Force, even in a crisis.

What choice do the voters of South Africa have in the forthcoming election? The White voters have a choice between the CP, the DP and the NP. I submit—I have also indicated this—that the DP stands for capitulation and the CP stands for war. [Interjections.]

You people stand for corruption!

The NP stands for survival.

Order! The hon member for Durban Central must withdraw those words. There are no hon members in this House who stand for corruption.

Mr Chairman, I said “the National Party”.

Order! No, the hon member said “You people stand for corruption”. The hon member must withdraw that.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw it.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: From the NP benches for the past number of years hon members of the PFP—now the DP—have been accused of “being soft on security”. That has been accepted as part of the debate by the Chair. I submit that to suggest that the NP and its members are soft on corruption falls into exactly the same category as “being soft on security”. I therefore submit with respect, Mr Chairman, that if it is your intention to prevent hon members of the DP from accusing hon members of the NP or the party itself of being soft on corruption, then in fact exactly the same must apply to hon members of the NP who are constantly accusing hon members on our side of being soft on security.

Order! The hon member for Durban Central used the Afrikaans words “Julie staan vir”. The words “staan vir” in Afrikaans mean that one actually advocates something or is positively in favour of it. On those grounds I ruled against the expression. It is much stronger than “being soft on”.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: In respect of your ruling, does it also apply if it is said that we “staan vir oorgawe”? [Interjections.]

Order! I have given my ruling on the point. However, to assist the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central I will explain to him that if an allegation were to be made that the DP or any other party was “in favour of terrorism” it would amount to the same as saying that they “stood for” terrorism.

Mr Chairman, on a further point of order: I submit that a previous speaker from the NP said that we stood for giving up. His exact words were that “ons het vir oorgawe gestaan”. Under those circumstances may I request, Mr Chairman, that you rule that part of his speech out of order.

Order! That is not inadmissible. In particular circumstances it could be advisable and proper to “staan vir oorgawe”. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: While the discussion was taking place one of my hon colleagues also made an interjection, and an hon NP member—I think it was the hon member for Durbanville—said, with reference to one of my hon colleagues: “You are corrupt.” I submit that he must withdraw that.

Order! Did any hon member use words to that effect?

Yes, Mr Chairman, I did and I withdraw them.

Mr Chairman, I should like to indicate in good time that I shall unfortunately not be able to attend the rest of the debate. I would have liked the situation to be different, and I apologise to the hon the Minister and to hon members for this.

The basic error of reasoning underlying the argument of the hon member for False Bay about hon members of the CP and national security is to be found in an inability to distinguish between the security of the country and the State and that of the NP. [Interjections.]

This afternoon I want to talk specifically about a related subject, namely the misuse by the Government, of the SA Defence Force to promote the party-political objectives of the NP. This is a serious matter, and I therefore want to repeat that the Defence Force and South Africa never have to look over their shoulder to see where the CP stands in respect of the defence of our fatherland and of the Defence Force. I quote the crux of this matter from our programme of principles:

For many years there has been talk of the total onslaught on the RSA, and rightly so. There is a very real and critical total onslaught on South Africa from the communist world, but under the pretext of warding off that total onslaught on South Africa, there is a total onslaught on the White man, specifically the Afrikaner, his freedom and his distinct pattern of survival.

The acceptance of the new dispensation, the so-called reform and the creation of a new South Africa was regarded as the way in which the onslaught on the RSA should be countered. To this end a new nation with common interests must be created and existing peoples must become minority groups, but minority groups which accept one another, support one another and do more and more things together.

Ethnic nationalism, as the Afrikaner knows it, which goes hand-in-hand with freedom, therefore has no place whatsoever in this new dispensation. Nothing short of a complete spiritual and social turn-about among Afrikaners would have to take place before such a dispensation would be acceptable to them. However, this change, no matter how far-reaching, must take place without too much of a fuss—like a bloodless revolution. The best solution would be if it could be carried out by the Afrikaner himself. It must come from within. The Afrikaner must change his values himself, exchange being an Afrikaner for being a South African, exchange self-determination for power-sharing, exchange his father-land for a common territory and his calling as a people for an overall national objective. In the process the Afrikaner as we know him must in time disappear. In order to achieve this a network of so-called community development associations are spread throughout every local community, a network which, like an octopus, gets a grip on the community as a whole to achieve this purpose.

In my constituency a draft plan for the activities of such a community development association ended up in the hands of the Press. It was marked “highly confidential”. The question is whether this was a document from the Defence Force or the Broederbond. I have little doubt that there is an unfortunate, intimate relationship between the two, but the fact that the document was marked “highly confidential”, most certainly makes it a Broederbond document. This is clear from the following three quotations taken from that document:

The second quotation reads as follows:

Of course they identified themselves and were identified. This means one and the same thing because group one—which has to implement this plan—appears on the next page. Every single one of them is a member of the Afrikaner Broederbond in that community. Group one consists of the people who, in the first instance, have to implement this plan. Group two consists of the younger leaders. Here we find leaders of the Ruiterwag— the junior Broederbond—every single one of them.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

No, Sir.

In groups three and four one finds individuals who hold political views which differ from those held by the members of the two organisations I referred to. [Interjections.]

The question is how this network is actually going to function. Deteriorating relations between the peoples in South Africa are taken as the point of departure which is aimed at a revolutionary onslaught on the country. What an indictment of the NP’s own policy if the point of departure is that there are deteriorating relations between the various peoples! In order to combat this, a national strategy is being launched, involving every community, and society as whole. The national goal in this regard is defined as follows:

These are cliches:

What is wrong with that?

The hon member will soon find out what is wrong with that if he does not yet understand it. [Interjections.]

It means the establishment and entrenchment of State nationalism at the expense of ethnic nationalism. [Interjections.] If the revolution were to succeed, everything would be lost in any case. None of us wants to have that happen. However, if the counter-revolution were to succeed, we would have gained a temporary advantage with an everlasting loss of our freedom, since the resulting tyranny would only be temporary and, under increasing pressure and a decreasing ability to resist, would ultimately result in the same Marxist dictatorship. [Interjections.]

The cliches that are used throughout this document are the well-known ones. For every community people with a so-called positive attitude must be recruited. Attention is given to training, but in the context of this document it is not training. It is conditioning and brainwashing for the attainment of the party-political objectives of the NP.

It is expressly stated in the document that—

I focus hon members’ attention on the proposed Defence Force course. It goes on to state:

The NP propaganda clichés about the broadening of democracy, the removal of discriminatory legislation and practices where they still exists— and in the light of the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs’s speech this also means the Group Areas Act, the Population Registration Act and the reservation of separate amenities under the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act—all feature in that document.

We assess this octopus plan as follows. It is a Government that is being launched by the SADF’s Comops division in particular. It is veiled in a cloak of false scientific jargon supported by the HSRC’s report on inter-group relations. It is supported in local communities by Broederbond participation on the basis of the study document Basiese Staatkundige Voor-waardes vir die Voortbestaan van die Afrikaner and by the Ruiterwag’s document on the constitutional process of reform in South Africa. I wish I had the time to quote more extracts from that document.

In addition there is of course the minutes of the NP’s management meeting in the Transvaal on 20 June, when the hon the leader-in-chief of the NP—at the time merely the Transvaal leader— was reported as saying that the Government wanted to get a majority of Black people to lend their support to a dispensation which would effectively protect the vested rights of the Whites.

Unfortunately my time has expired. [Interjections.] There is still a great deal I would have liked to say on this subject. I should like to conclude by making an appeal to the hon the Minister as a fellow-White and a fellow-Afri-kaner who loves his people and his country. [Interjections.] I ask the hon the Minister to stop misusing the Defence Force for party-political purposes and to stop putting pressure on the loyalty of good fellow-Afrikaners and Whites towards the Defence Force by using them for party-political objectives.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: One of the hon members of the NP referred to the hon member for Potgietersrus as a traitor.

Order! Did any hon member refer to the hon member for Potgietersrus as a traitor?

I did, Mr Chairman.

Order! The hon member must withdraw that.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw it.

Piet, not you!

Order! The hon member for Overvaal must also withdraw that insinuation.

[Inaudible.]

Order! The hon member insinuated that the hon member for Winburg was a traitor.

Never, never, Mr Chairman, not him; he is a friend of mine! [Interjections.]

Order! Did the hon member for Overvaal not say “he is not you”?

Mr Chairman, I said “not you”, meaning that I could not understand how he could be so nasty to my hon colleague.

Mr Chairman, allow me, at the outset of my speech, to congratulate the hon member for Riversdal on his nomination as spokesman on defence for the LP. According to my experience and knowledge of him, he is a reasonable politician, a man with reasonable points of view and a loyal South African. I hope that he can persuade the leader of his party to be more reasonable and well-disposed towards everything South Africa endorses.

I also want to congratulate the hon member for Sandton, in his new capacity, on his brand new party.

†In taking part in this debate on the defence budget I would like to congratulate the hon the Minister of Defence on containing expenditure on defence to a minimum that amounts to only 5% in real terms and, seen against the budget for the previous year, to a decrease of 1,6% as set out in the explanatory memorandum. According to the memorandum the increase is nominal and is attributable to modernisation and re-equipment programmes, while other uncontrollable factors such as tariff increases and the deteriorating currency exchange rate, among other factors, also contribute to the increase.

In this debate some words have been said about conscription. Coloured men are not subject to conscription and they therefore do not have to campaign for the ending of conscription or alternative service. It is a well known fact that there is such a flood of volunteers for military service from our people that the training facilities at Faure cannot cope with the demand. That goes to show that our people are loyal to their country, notwithstanding some inequalities that still exist. When I went on a tour of South West Africa/Namibia in the group led by the hon the Deputy Minister of Defence I was pleasantly surprised to see that the captain in charge of the base at Ondangwa was none other than a Coloured man from Oudtshoorn, a Capt Maasdorp. Our loyalty to this country has been proved in two world wars and perhaps most notably on the battlefields of France where the unit of the Cape Corps fought with outstanding valour.

With regard to the economy of this country, it has repeatedly been said that we are a developing Third World country. We are in a hostile world where any excuse, however flimsy, is used to assail us physically and to weaken our defence morale. A demoralised country is a defeated one. This we in South Africa cannot afford, we cannot afford to be subjugated by any of the major countries or to play second fiddle to them. We have to be prepared and we have to show ourselves as being prepared. Therefore nobody in this Chamber, irrespective of party affiliations, who regards himself as being a loyal South African can quibble about the nominal increase in defence expenditure which expressed as a percentage of total State expenditure is 15,6%. The military is the watchdog of the nation and our Defence Force must be prepared at all times.

Here I might also congratulate the hon the Minister of Defence on the role he has played of late, in conjunction with his colleague the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs, towards the implementation of the peace plan and the independence of South West Africa/Namibia. The hon the Minister of Defence reminded me of the first Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa, whose statue stands outside the Houses of Parliament. Among other things, that Prime Minster is described as being a soldier and a statesman. I think this applies equally to the hon the Minister of Defence.

With regard to the conflict situation in South West Africa/Namibia, my party is not prepared to be swayed by the propaganda emanating from abroad. This propaganda is intended to demoralise us and our supporters abroad. It is a rehashing of the old anti-South Africa story. It just so happens that these anti-South African propagandists have found another dead horse to flog—a loser when all the facts become clear. There may have been incidents, but the Administrator-General of South West Africa has reacted promptly to the allegations by appointing a commission to investigate these allegations.

*Mr Chairman, the DRP is not prepared to judge in advance what the findings of the committee will be. The allegations will be investigated thoroughly and completely. The chairman of the commission is a senior advocate, Mr O’Lynn, chairman of the Bar Council in South West Africa. Our party is satisfied that he will act impartially and make an impartial decision about the evidence.

Whatever the findings might be, I personally am satisfied that Swapo was the cause of the fighting on 1 April and afterwards, and that it is also responsible for the loss of life that occurred. The intelligence we received on Tuesday this week from Gen Gouws of the SWA Police, Gen Jannie Geldenhuys and Mr Neil van Heerden, Director-General of Foreign Affairs, convinced me personally that Swapo and no one else should be blamed. Swapo broke the terms and the spirit of the agreement and the accord by infiltrating South West Africa/Namibia. They came in armed, not only with hand-guns but also with heavy arms. The representative of the Secretary of the UN also admitted that Swapo broke the agreement.

Regardless of what the findings of the commission’s inquiry may be, it is absolutely clear that Swapo and Swapo alone was responsible in the first instance for what happened there.

Mr Chairman, I want to take this opportunity to associate myself with my other colleagues in expressing our sympathies to the families of those sons who died in defence of our Republic. I request the hon the Minister concerned kindly to convey our heartfelt sympathy to those families.

I would like to place on record that I also associate myself with the remarks that any country worth its salt needs to have a strong defence force to defend the country against any type of aggression, both externally and internally. Here we find ourselves, strangely enough, trying to fight one another with party politics and trying to go to war with one another because we differ ideologically. We have to bear in mind that war is war. When the aggressor attacks us, he is not going to question whether we belong to the Solidarity Party, the NP or the CP; he is going to mow us all down.

That is when we will be looking to the SADF or to the hon the Minister of Defence to ask where he is sleeping. It is sometimes strange that when it comes to problems, we blame the SADF that they have been caught off guard. However, when there is peace, we start looking for all the problems that the Defence Force might have and we try to make it a political issue.

I am not trying to defend the Defence Force. It is my belief that the Defence Force must be above party politics. It is here to defend South Africa and all its people irrespective of race, religion, caste or even party politics. I want to make a plea and a request here. It is high time that we stopped playing party politics as far as our Defence Force is concerned. Our Defence Force is made up of individuals who support every kind of party politics. That is what the Defence Force is made up of, and I do admit that certain people of colour are not fully in the Defence Force yet. We made our position very clear that when every kind of discrimination is removed from this land, we will be willing to be conscripted into the Defence Force. We have made that very clear.

By that we are not against being in the Defence Force when we sometimes get interjections asking why we have not served our conscription or whatever one might call it. We want that to be made very clear.

I want to appeal to the hon the Minister. I know that the Administrator-General is attending to it, but the hon the Minister must please let the public know whether these reports in the newspapers which say—and which the South African public at large reads—“South African Security Forces executed Swapo, TV show claims”; “South African bully-boy tactics slammed by Press;” “Security forces shot villagers” are true or false. I know he has made a statement, but the public goes by what the media is saying. The good work which has been done by him as well as by the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs just goes down the drain.

Let us come to the other aspect of what the Defence Force is also doing with regard to nature conservation. Nature conservation is based on man’s appreciation for his natural environment. This in a sense is a sensible utilisation of nature as one of our natural resources. This conservation and protection is the responsibility of our primary conservation bodies. It is also the responsibility of every citizen.

We sometimes think that the SADF are just bullies as far as shooting people is concerned, but little does the ordinary man realise that the commitment of the Defence Force to environmental conservation is also manifested in the recent appointment of eight additional conservation officers to the staff of the SADF. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, when I became acquainted with the hon member for Rylands 15 years ago, he was a fervent, preaching clergyman and he is still as fervent. I agree wholeheartedly with most of what he said.

There is so much that is beautiful, so much that is positive, so much that is good and so much to be proud of for each South African, when it comes to the Vote of the hon the Minister of Defence, and therefore the Defence Force. We may not allow anything to detract from it.

When the image of the SADF is harmed and suspicion is cast on the integrity of the hon the Minister and the Defence Force, we owe it primarily to the Defence Force, the country and the hon the Minister, as well as to this Parliament, to correct it. How tragic and how shocking it is when such destruction and subversion takes place in this Parliament, the same place we are in now!

I am referring to the general attitude of the CP during this past month or so, and specifically to 11 April when the hon member for Overvaal spoke from this same podium. Owing to lack of time I cannot quote him in length, but I quote from his unrevised Hansard:

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: May the hon member refer to members of the CP as having committed subversive activities?

Order! Did the hon member for Lang-laagte refer to any hon members of this House?

Mr Chairman, I said that destruction and subversion of the Defence Force took place in this House and in this Parliament. I am in the process of proving it.

Order! The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I ask the House to decide. I quote further:

The hon member had to withdraw his claim that the hon the Minister was “cowardly”. In another place he said that it was a fact that the hon the Minister …

Order! The hon member for Lang-laagte may not refer to statements which were made by hon members and subsequently withdrawn.

I shall not refer to them again, Mr Chairman, but I have a serious problem. I know that I may not refer to it, but does Swapo know it? Does the ANC know it? They would be able to quote verbatim from this Hansard which I am quoting from, and state it verbatim in their pamphlets. We read here about atrocities and about what is happening abroad. They can use the hon member’s words, which are included in Hansard, and for which he only said “pardon”, to make that film. I object to the fact that he says “the powerless Malan, but I withdraw it”.

Mr Chairman, with respect to the point of order which the hon member for Pietersburg has just mentioned: On television I heard the hon member who is speaking now clearly saying “with reference to subversion” and directly afterwards he said “I now want to refer to the CP”.

Order! The hon member for Lang-laagte may proceed.

Mr Chairman, that hon member is wasting my time, but he will get a beating because the CP, I repeat, has adopted an atrocious attitude towards the Defence Force. I am proving now that they did it. They can raise points of order until the cows come home. What they have done, is stated in this document, and I say that it is an atrocious accusation against that party. I could quote further.

The hon members went on to say that they had attacked the hon the Minister, who was the political head, and not the Defence Force. The hon member himself says, and I shall quote him again:

I continue:

This, however, is all a sham. What does the hon member say? He says, and I quote:

The hon member has some knowledge of the Defence Force. I asked him who drew up contingency plans. Does the hon the Minister, the political head, sit in his office and draw up contingency plans and military action or do the generals and other officers of the Defence Force do it? Even the hon member cannot hide behind this flimsy screen.

One can visualise the scenario. Imagine for a moment the seriousness of the situation at that given moment. The peace plan for South West Africa/Namibia was at an extremely critical stage, balanced on the knife edge, one could almost say.

The eyes of the whole world were on us and specifically on the Defence Force and the hon the Minister of Defence. The enemies were searching closely for any tiny mistake that South Africa might have made somewhere, so that we could be accused of upsetting the plan. Violence erupted as a result of Swapo’s murderous terrorist aggression and at that stage the CP spokesmen stood up and said that what the hon the Minister had alleged was a cover-up of what had really happened and of what the military situation in South West Africa was. It was said that our Defence Force men, officers, soldiers, privates, but also Swapo, who planned well in advance and who were ready and, thanks to the quality of our generals, other officers and everyone involved, conducted themselves successfully. This was accompanied with great heroism and unfortunately also great loss of life. They did their duty true to their task. Then the CP stands up in this Chamber, the highest Chamber of South Africa, and says that it is a cover-up of the true military events in South West Africa. They say that our pants are around our ankles.

Go and read why Lord Carrington resigned! Go and read it!

That hon member is interrupting once again. It is the CP’s way of saying thank you. That is how the CP says thank you. Sis, I am ashamed of the CP! [Interjections.]

Order!

I want to tell the country and the Defence Force that that voice was not the voice of Afrikaners; it was the fly in the drinking water. As far as that is concerned, the only fly in South African drinking water, because almost every political party in every House supported the South African forces and hon the Ministers in what they did in their team. The masses, even the world, realised that those people were doing good, but the two CP alliances, the CP/AWB alliance, was not happy. Nor was the other CP alliance, the Communistic Party/ANC alliance.

For what the CP did here, and specifically because of what the hon member for Overvaal, who is their chief spokesman on defence, said here the ANC might just as well put the CP on their payroll. This conduct, the discrediting and casting of suspicion and undermining of our hon Minister and the Defence Force, even more so at this extremely critical stage, is worth millions of rands to the ANC. They can publish it in their pamphlets just as it stands.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member cannot say that we CP members can be put on the ANC payroll. By that he implies that we agree with the endeavours and the objectives of the ANC, and he cannot do that.

Order! No, I cannot agree with the argument of the hon member for Overvaal.

Mr Chairman, I do not want to become personal.

Then he must put the Cabinet on the payroll of the ANC as well, because they belong there.

I just want to tell the hon member that it is a fact that the whole South Africa …

Order! No, the hon member for Overvaal must withdraw that last part, “they belong there”.

That is what he implied about us!

Order! That is not the case. I am not prepared to argue with the hon member for Overvaal. The hon member for Langlaagte’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I suggest that the only meaning that can be attached to the statement that one is on the payroll of the ANC is that you are paid by them, and that that is not admissible.

Order! Nobody implied that any party or anybody was on the payroll of the ANC.

Mr Chairman, on a further point of order: The hon member for Overvaal furiously refused to accept the decision of the Chair. He refused to withdraw those words.

Order! No, I am under the impression that the hon member for Overvaal did not agree with the Chair, which is his right, but that he did withdraw his words.

He did not!

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member just said that he refused to withdraw it, and he was collecting his things …

Order! Will the hon member for Overvaal please go to the microphone? Can the hon member for Overvaal assist the Chair and say whether he withdrew or not?

I withdraw, Mr Chairman.

Order! Does the hon member for Cape Town Gardens wish to raise a point of order?

Yes, Mr Chairman: Are hon members allowed to raise points of orders from their seats?

Order! Hon members, including the hon member for Cape Town Gardens, should make use of the microphones available. The point was well taken, but not also from the microphone as it should have been.

Mr Chairman, I do not want to debate the merits of the SADF’s presence in Namibia. My party has already taken a stand on that issue and I stand by my party’s decision.

There are one or two issues that I wish to address and here one must give credit where credit is due. Now, as the SADF is moving out of Namibia, I want to say that I have had the opportunity of going there on numerous occasions at the invitation of the hon the Minister. I want to congratulate him on what I have seen at the Omega base. There was a group of Bushmen who had run for their lives from Angola. It was the SADF which protected those people. They gave those people back their lives. That is the one issue.

The other issue is this: We are entering into another historic period. I think for once we are beginning to look at ways to ensure peace on our South West African border. We are entering a period in which violence in our townships is beginning to diminish. We have experienced times when necklacing was prevalent, when people’s bodies were burned, when people were raped and people’s families gunned down. The Defence Force played a very important role in helping to stabilise the situation. From someone who comes from a township, I want to say that we are most grateful. The SADF has done a remarkable job.

In my constituency the SADF also had a role to play, because the fighting was not only on the country’s borders. The enemy was also operating in our townships. [Interjections.] That is a fact which the hon member for Claremont cannot deny. That hon member talks from a Claremont background. He does not know how township dwellers live. If the hon member wants to go into the townships, he will need two or three Casspirs to drive behind him, because people may attack him.

The activists intimidated our young people and our old people. It is true that the older folks in my area cried out for protection. [Interjections.] I will take the hon member for Claremont into the townships. I will even get the Press to come along, because he is a person who always seeks publicity. I will take him with me. Then he can see how people’s homes and lives were destroyed.

I can send the hon member to SADF members. There are homes that were petrol-bombed in my area. Even marriages have broken up as a result of this violence. I will take the hon member to a house in my constituency where a four-year-old child was the victim of a petrol bomb which came through the window. It landed on the child’s bed and the parents forgot that the child was there. That child’s entire face and front were burnt. That child will have to carry those scars forever. Then that hon member still has the nerve to ask me if I am opposed to the SADF’s presence in the townships! He should be ashamed of himself! These activists use our young people as fodder in the townships. They will turn anything into a political crisis. Look at the school boycotts, for example. Just yesterday I spoke to a group of young people who were taken on a tour through Parliament. Some of these young people had been in detention without a trial. What did they say to me? They said: “We have learned our lesson.” These activists have used issues such as increased rentals and underdeveloped townships to incite people.

Our townships are underdeveloped because our townships were used as dumping grounds for the NP-policy, but we are not talking about how these things happened. There are people who are willing to rectify it today and that is why we are present here in Parliament today. Unfortunately, activists used those things to cause conflict situations to arise. They started riots by organising school boycotts. Yesterday a school in my constituency started tyre-burnings in order to organise a clash with the Defence Force people!

Disgraceful!

This resulted in propaganda which can be used namely that the State has declared war against its own people and that these activists were really coming to rescue the unprotected masses. This is one of the ways which the hon member for Claremont used to come into our townships. He said he came to speak on behalf of them to tell us what true protection should really be about.

Dustbin politics! The dustbin of Claremont!

These activists said they were coming to protect the masses. The defenders, our men in uniform, were then portrayed as the attackers! The attackers, who were the activists, were portrayed as the defenders of the people.

This is the problem that our security forces face today. However, I am confident that South Africa will win. We will triumph over those activists because we are South Africans; we are Afrikaners! I want to say to the hon member of the CP who spoke here earlier—I think his surname is Pienaar; the hon member for Pot-gietersrus—there is one thing that he cannot deny and that is that he is my brother! [Interjections.] How does he think I came by the surname of McKenzie? [Interjections.] He cannot deny this.

*I should like to tell him that I think those hon members have more Coloured blood than I do! [Interjections.]

†I want to say that there is adequate proof that the so-called Coloured people, the Hottentots, have never declared war against the White people of this country! Hon members should go and read their history books! Never ever has it happened! We worked together as brothers. However, after the 1940s the Whites dropped us. They should not try to drop us again this time! [Interjections.]

This country will have to return to normality in order for the state of emergency to be lifted and the reform process to be accelerated. The Government will have to address a total upgrading programme, especially in our constituencies, so that it can destroy the revolutionary elements who want to eliminate law and order in our areas.

Well said!

The security forces will have to help in this manner in order that the activists can be rooted out in our areas and our society. Some of the present conditions in our townships are used as breeding grounds for the revolutionaries. We will have to stop these conditions which the activists are exploiting. We will have to counter these actions!

Lastly, I would like to say that as South Africans we are looking to our men in uniform to protect the citizens of this country whether those citizens are Black or White, or whatever colour. This is the hon the Minister’s job. That is why we are having this debate today. Security is vital for our endeavours to create a new liberated South Africa. This department and its hon Minister must guarantee to South Africa peace for all our people and in all our townships! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Bonteheuwel has said some things about troops in the townships to which one might want to react, but our chief spokesman, the hon member for Sandton, has set out our attitude on troops in the townships and I support that view. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister said something in his introductory speech to which I would like to react. I seem to have a peculiar effect on that hon Minister. Once again, he could not resist having a personal side-swipe at me in his speech. I shall not rise to his bait on this occasion, but I would like him to check his facts in respect of one thing. He said that this party and its predecessors have had nine spokesmen in nine years. In my calculation our party has only had seven defence spokesmen in the fifteen years since 1974. [Interjections.] Permit me to say that in my own case … [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must afford the hon member for Constantia the opportunity to conduct his speech.

I just wanted to say that he should check his facts. In my case, I was in fact the acting spokesman for the two months pending the formation of the DP. I was the deputy spokesman and still am and I fully support the policy that the hon member for Sandton has set out for us. I think the hon the Minister should stop trying to play this game of trying to drive a wedge between the members of the DP. He will not succeed. [Interjections.]

I would like to raise a number of matters related to the Angolan situation in recent years. In the debates that were conducted in 1987 and 1988 I called for a reassessment of our role in Angola. This time a year ago we were in the thick of the Angolan war and engaged in heavy conventional clashes around the Lomba River and I personally did not dare to hope that the war would be over this soon or that Resolution 435 would be in progress by now. For that I must give credit where credit is due and commend our Foreign Affairs and Defence negotiators for the successful outcome of the negotiations. I would also like to take the opportunity to commend our troops who fought valiantly in difficult conditions throughout the war and who thereby played their part in forging the circumstances that led to the negotiation table and to the current peace programme.

Having said that, though, I think it is also necessary to ask what lessons we should learn from the experience we gained in South West Africa/Namibia and Angola over the past 15 to 20 years. It seems to me that we must realise the disadvantages of any military involvement beyond our borders in the following terms.

Firstly, we have spent billions of rand which could have been far better employed in economic development here at home. Secondly, we have been drawn into a process of escalation since 1975 whereby the end result is a dramatic increase in the military strength and sophistication of Angolan defensive and offensive weaponry which has altered the regional military balance of power in a significant way. This is a change we shall be forced to take account of in the future. We have also lost many lives and suffered many injuries to our young people.

Another lesson we need to learn from recent experience is that co-operation with the international community pays off. In the modern world no country can isolate itself in opposition to the rest of the world. In open, honest and frank negotiations and in co-operation with the powerful nations of the world we ourselves can gain a great deal of active assistance in the resolution of our regional problems.

In the same context I want to refer to the other conflict which we have on our hands with regard to the armed struggle. It seems to me that there is a real chance now that the ANC could also be deflected from the armed struggle and be persuaded to take part in a Great Indaba or National Convention. This would be possible if the West and the USSR were to act in concert with our co-operation to bring about a process of negotiation. In my view, now is the time to make use of that opportunity.

Another point I would like to raise is the question of the announcement of the hon the Minister of a reduction in service obligations and a review of that. I am delighted to hear that announcement. Recently, on 7 March 1989, I asked whether there would be any reductions and the answer was no. I am delighted that there is now to be a review and a reduction.

Another issue I would like to raise is that of suicides and suicide attempts in the SADF. There has been a response to my Question No 279 and there it emerged that in 1988 no fewer than 294 national servicemen attempted suicide and 11 succeeded. The figures for the Permanent Force were 44 and 4 and for the Citizen Force Commandos, 6 and 6, respectively. These are high and disturbing figures, particularly in respect of national servicemen.

Has there been an official enquiry into these suicides and suicide attempts? Is there any pattern to these attempts? Do any particular units have an unusually high incidence of cases? What outside influences can drive a young national serviceman, who has everything to live for, to such an extreme that he attempts to take his own life? What is the SADF doing in trying to reduce this seemingly high incidence of attempts? Finally, what, if any, psychological testing procedures are employed by the SADF to identify national servicemen who are experiencing severe distress or mental disorders and who are perhaps on the brink of attempting suicide?

Another matter I would like to raise is the matter of air travel concessions. I am pleased to note that the servicemen are able to get 40% discount on a first-come-first-served basis. This concession, however, is often nullified as flights at present are very full, particularly over holiday weekends. The result is that national servicemen often experience great disappointment and frustration at having to wait around airports while on leave and then sometimes they do not even get home on a busy holiday weekend. I would like to appeal to the hon the Minister to take steps to arrange that national servicemen who wish to use this concession to travel long distances home by air should be allowed to proceed on pass at times which will coincide with low loadings of SAA flights, particularly around holiday weekends. Staggered leave arrangements should be made where possible. Any steps to alleviate the present frustrating situation would be very greatly appreciated by our young servicemen.

Another issue which I would like to touch upon is a report which appeared in Die Burger on 15 December 1988. It was reported from Saldanha Bay under the heading “Vissers kry gesinkte Vloot-boot”. It reads as follows:

It seems strange to me that the sinking of an SA Navy vessel should have passed by almost unnoticed—I did not see any report on this matter other than this one—and that the Navy did not make any attempt to recover that vessel until it refloated itself. One wants to ask the following questions: Was an enquiry undertaken and, if so, with what results? Who was responsible for the sinking of this vessel? What action has been taken? Why was no attempt made to recover the vessel immediately after the sinking? What was the value of the vessel and the equipment on board? Was there any harm suffered by people when it sank? What is the value of the salvage recovered?

Mr Chairman, before I come to the theme of my speech, I want to refer quickly to two matters which were mentioned by previous speakers. The hon member for Bonteheuwel referred to the hon member for Claremont who is forever interfering in the townships, as the hon member for Bonteheuwel put it. I want to make the statement this afternoon that despite the high profile which the DP is attempting to adopt here with regard to security, the formation of that party must have caused a totally new attitude to take root among the hon members of the old PFP, who are now in that new party, because those hon members were some of the staunchest opponents of the Defence Force’s presence in the townships to restore peace and order there. [Interjections.] We shall not forget that.

The hon member for Constantia said many pleasant things with regard to the hon the Minister’s contribution to the peace negotiations in South West Africa. He also referred to the fact that co-operation with the international world was worthwhile. The standpoint of the South African Government in this regard is very clear. We wish to co-operate with the entire free world. South Africa does not intend—not now, and not in the future either—to allow itself to be intimidated into making decisions which will detrimentally affect its own future.

In that regard we cannot underestimate the role which the South African Defence Force played in South West Africa. The role of the Defence Force was primarily responsible for the instigating of successful diplomatic relations and negotiations.

This afternoon, I want to dwell briefly on two aspects which strike a peaceful note in this debate, namely Armscor and the peace task of the SA Defence Force. Armscor is held in very high regard by most South Africans today. The most well-known reason for this is that Armscor has developed from a Cinderella in the arms industry to approximately the tenth largest arms exporter in the world, within 12 years. That in itself is a tremendous achievement.

In 1977, the United Nations adopted Resolution 418, which placed an embargo on arms sales to South Africa. Armscor was formed to establish and develop our own armaments industry, in order, in the first place, to provide the SA Defence Force with the necessary equipment. In 12 years we have built up our own industrial ability, which today comprises Armscor and its subsidiaries, and more than 900 suppliers from the private sector. Approximately 75% of the value of armaments which are provided, is provided by these 900 private companies. The existing armaments industry in South Africa has made the Republic immune to the embargo of 1977.

Apart from the fact that today we are able to meet our own needs, there is also a further positive development of which we must take note, which has increased the effectiveness and striking power of the SA Defence Force considerably. That is that the opportunity was used to develop and maintain specific weapon systems which meet the needs of the SA Defence Force. Because these systems were developed in the RSA, we are also in a position to maintain them effectively, and unlike other countries with expensive and sophisticated systems, we are not dependent on foreign goodwill for the maintenance of our systems.

The formation of Armscor was a daring feat which, today, is the best evidence that sanctions against the RSA can be transformed into great opportunities. Today, the armaments industry in South Africa is a primary source of prosperity. It offers employment opportunities to approximately 23 000 people within Armscor, and more than 100 000 posts in the private industrial sector are closely linked to the manufacturing of weapons.

The expansion of Armscor also led to the refinement of basic raw materials which it needed for its manufacturing activities. Knowledge which was acquired in this regard, is laying the foundation for profitable trade with the international world in refined raw materials today.

The development of a weapon industry of our own placed considerable demands on the availability of expertise. South Africa has developed that expertise, and today many industries are profiting by it. The development of high-level technology has been stimulated because Armscor is an important consumer in that regard. The development and availability of this technology has already been adapted in various fields outside the armaments industry, for example, in the design of vehicles, communication and control systems.

Apart from the praise and thanks which we wish to convey to Armscor, specifically to the retiring chairman, Comdt Piet Marais, this thanks and praise would be incomplete if we did not convey a special word of thanks in this regard this afternoon to the private sector in the development of South Africa’s own arms industry. The recognition, co-operation and preparedness to make do with high input costs, is praiseworthy. The way in which the State and the private sector were able to co-operate and supplement each other in the arms manufacturing industry to the advantage of not only South Africa’s security, but also with regard to the application and expansion of expertise and technology, is an example worth following. This has led to the creation of employment opportunities and international markets, and as a result, South Africa’s security has been strengthened.

The second aspect is that when one thinks of the SA Defence Force, most people are inclined to think of roaring cannons, the crack of gunfire, mutilation, death and so on, and therefore actually project a very cruel image of the SA Defence Force. It is true that the SA Defence Force is strong and prepared, and if necessary, it could hit very hard to defend the interests of South Africa, and in that lies a great guarantee of peace.

In all the years of its existence, the SA Defence Force has never fought a war for territorial expansion. Where it has become involved, the issues were those of the upholding of democracy and the rights and privileges which go along with that. When the role of the SA Defence Force in South West Africa/Namibia is evaluated, its contribution as catalyst for peace in that region will never be underestimated.

I remember that on visits which we paid to South West Africa, we often went far into the bush and inhospitable parts. There we found a school where children were receiving education from personnel or national servicemen of the SA Defence Force. That is an investment which has been made in South West Africa and which could bear considerable fruit in that country for many years to come.

Secondly, medical services were taken to inhospitable and remote places, from which the local population benefited tremendously. The opportunity was used to provide local inhabitants with training in the provision of paramedical services. The inhabitants of South West Africa should benefit from this for a long time to come. Although South West Africa still has a long way to go, the SA Defence Force has laid foundations on which it will be worthwhile to build the future.

Reference was made to the Bushmen who had congregated at Omega. To remove an entire population group from an area in which they were being chased, pursued and threatened with extinction, and to allow them to settle in a safe area, to provide them with training, education and medical services, and to ensure that that community could recuperate and that they would once again have prospects for the future, is one of the greatest humanitarian acts which a Defence Force has done in a war situation in many decades.

When we talk about the peace task of the SA Defence Force, we are talking about a very important facet of the SA Defence Force. It is important that we in South Africa should be able to tell the SA Defence Force that we appreciate the sacrifices which they make, the initiative which they show and the expertise which they impart to people. We appreciate this just as much as we appreciate the physical tasks which they undertake in the interests of South Africa.

Mr Chairman, firstly I should like to say a few words to the youngish hon member for Potgietersrus, who is not here at the moment, and I hope that his fellow party members will convey them to him.

In a sense we are contemporaries, we have the same skin colour and we both speak Afrikaans. I want to tell the hon member today that we are still young enough to move, shoulder to shoulder, towards a new South Africa. Who knows, even if the hon member does have dark nightmares about it, we shall yet sit together on the same beach, live where we wish to and where we can afford to, and educate our children under one education system in this country. The course of history cannot be halted. [Interjections.]

An attempt has been made in this Parliament during the past two months to cast suspicion on the role of the Coloured community in the SA Defence Force. Recently there have been quite a number of interjections regarding national service and so on. Consequently, I wish to state unequivocally in this Chamber today that the Coloured community has done its share in so far as the protection of South Africa is concerned. [Interjections.]

Let us not forget that no fewer than 33 000 Coloured soldiers have rendered voluntary service in South West Africa/Namibia at some or other time. They were not forced to do so. Secondly, we find that within the armaments industry, in which thousands of job opportunities are given to South Africans, Armscor alone has some 4 000 Coloureds in its employ. Thousands of other Coloured people who are employees of private companies, occupy their posts indirectly as a consequence of the activities of Armscor subsidiaries.

I therefore wish to tell the CP today that they must desist from making these interjections. I want to tell them that the Coloured community of South Africa does not need national service to prove its loyalty to South Africa. The Coloured community may be bitterly unhappy about certain aspects of their daily lives, but they remain fierce fighters for South Africa. [Interjections.]

Last year the hon the Minister of Defence cast more light on the new base for Coloured soldiers at Kimberley. His colleague the then hon Minister of Public Works and Land Affairs also announced last year that the base would cost up to R65 million to construct. Naturally, the base will have a definite impact on Kimberley and its people. We heard from the hon the Minister of Defence this afternoon that according to the plan, that base would begin to function early next year.

We are grateful for this new show-case of the SA Defence Force and we shall monitor the progress of the base with interest. Let me also say that I am intensely grateful for the assistance that was rendered in this project by my hon colleague for Kimberley South. I have never had an opportunity to say this in public.

I personally paid a visit to the construction site recently and I can assure hon members that what is being constructed there need not take a back seat to anything in the country. According to reports, this base will ultimately accommodate 3 SAI as well as 1 Special Training Unit. I wish to repeat that the base will accommodate 3 SAI. We welcome the fact that the unit is also regarded in name as an integral part of the Defence Force family. It is no good certain people attempting to back away to a certain situation in which everything is separate.

Hon members of Parliament had the privilege of going to look at the activities of 1 Special Training Unit, or Project Molteno, as it is known. I believe they will agree with me when I say that Project Molteno has established itself among the Coloured community and that it is fully on stream.

The objective of Project Molteno is to afford semi-skilled unemployed people from the Coloured community an opportunity, besides receiving basic military training, to be trained in a discipline which will place them in a better position to compete in the labour market. The fourth intake is at present undergoing training and it is heartening to note that there were more than 1 300 interested parties in respect of this intake. This is enlightening, particularly in view of the 250 members who were called up for the first intake in January 1987.

With its first intake this project attracted people mainly from throughout the Northern Cape, but as subsequent groups were taken in, the net was cast wider. For the sake of interest, I want to mention to hon members where these men came from, because this gives one an idea of how far this has already progressed. There were 9 from Bloemfontein; 34 from Barkly West; 5 from Bloemhof; 17 from Britstown; 1 from Boshoff; 122 from De Aar; 37 from Delportshoop; 6 from Douglas; 5 from Geluksdal; 27 from Griekwa-stad; 17 from Groblershoop; 51 from Hopetown; 3 from Jacobsdal; 18 from Jan Kempdorp; 18 from Kakamas, 7 from Keimoes; 6 from Kathu; 2 from Kareedouw, 10 from Kenhardt; 260 from Kimberley; 18 from Klerksdorp; 10 from Kuru-man; 3 from Luckhoff; 38 from Merrivale; 9 from Mier; 2 from Oranjerivier; 18 from Oli-fantshoek; 3 from Petrusville; 12 from Potchefstroom; 21 from Pofadder; 100 from Prieska; 29 from Postmasburg; 66 from Pretoria; 6 from Queenstown; 3 from Ritchie; 25 from Reveille in Johannesburg; 11 from Rust Ter Vaal; 1 from Sishen; 9 from Port Elizabeth; 253 from Uping-ton; 70 from Uitenhage; 16 from Vryburg; and 7 from Warrenton. I mention this to illustrate that in the short period since the end of last year people have come from far and wide to receive this training.

This project is undoubtedly a success story. Owing to various factors there are a large number of people in the Coloured community who did not have the opportunity to progress beyond primary school education. The skilled training which the SA Defence Force is offering these people is placing them in a position to acquire better qualifications in order to obtain work. Through this project the SA Defence Force has displayed its flexibility and what is more, this flexibility is further illustrated by the fact that those members who obtain a job before being discharged, may be discharged at their own request.

Despite their scholastic handicap, the members of 1 Special Unit do not take a back seat to any other unit in the SA Defence Force. Let us consider a few examples. If one takes into account the fact that these members handle a firearm for the first time in their lives when they arrive at the unit, the average of approximately 63% that has been achieved in marksmanship during the past three intakes, is praiseworthy. An average of 60,4% was achieved in theory. In so far as vocational training is concerned, we find that during the first three intakes 166 members received training in masonry; 76 in painting and restoration work; 88 in plumbing; 94 in the electrical field; 115 as carpenters; 41 in tractor servicing; 98 in welding; 32 in upholstering; 38 in cookery; 82 in the mechanical field; and 14 as drivers.

Those members who reported for the first intake in January 1987 passed out in December last year. These members were in complete agreement that they would grasp another opportunity like this with both hands. The response to the two intakes per year which were implemented as from last year, has been overwhelming. I want to suggest that the SA Defence Force should continue to have two intakes per year.

An interesting aspect that has emerged, is that some of the Molteno members have been so taken up with the Defence Force that they would like to make a career for themselves in the SA Defence Force. I wish to submit that they definitely possess the qualities to make a success of a military career, and it would be appreciated if the SA Defence Force would investigate this possibility.

Having said all this, I must add that the community appreciates Project Molteno, but I nevertheless want to issue a warning that although a certificate from the SA Defence Force’s training centre benefits the individual, it is not a passport to a job opportunity. Attention will have to be devoted to this, and in the final analysis, this is not the task of the SA Defence Force alone.

Mr Chairman, I do not intend to follow on what the previous speaker has had to say in view of the shortage of time. As the lone survivor of a party which has always held strong views in regard to the security and the defence of this country, it is a particular pleasure for me to be able to participate in this debate today.

I wish to add my voice to the tributes that have already been expressed acknowledging the role of the Defence Force and the part it has played in ensuring the security of this country as well as South West Africa.

The little time at my disposal does not, regrettably, allow me to elaborate to any degree on some of the issues I would like to raise. However, I would not be doing justice to this debate were I not to pay particular tribute to the role of the Defence Force in South West Africa now that the curtain is falling on our involvement in that territory.

It is often commented that the situation in South West Africa is, at the present time, similar to that in the old Rhodesia prior to the Lancaster House Agreement. However, this is not the case because Swapo have no foothold in South West Africa, whereas insurgents controlled large areas in north-eastern Rhodesia prior to the final agreement being reached on independence.

Overseas commentators, too, are now expressing delight at the thought that a time schedule has finally been set for the withdrawal of South African troops from South West Africa. I wonder if they have paused to reflect on the economic void that will be created when South African forces do return home, bearing in mind that the military presence in Ovamboland in particular has contributed considerably to the improved standard of living and prosperity that has been enjoyed by the inhabitants of that region over the past ten years.

There are two questions that I wish to put briefly to the hon the Minister. How do we stand with regard to Unita, with whom we have enjoyed such excellent relations over recent years? I trust that the hon the Minister will be able to give the Committee the assurance that there will be no question that this brave band of warriors will be left in the lurch. The hon the Minister has indicated that he will be dealing with aspects of the South West African issue tomorrow, and I would request him to give an indication as to what the future holds for the Bushmen at Omega and Mangetti. May I also ask what will become of them? My appeal is that we look after these people, since we have an obligation to ensure that they are not victimised in any way as a result of their association with the SA Defence Force and as a result of the granting of independence to South West Africa.

I wish now to direct my comments to the home front, and I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to pay greater attention to expanding the civic action component of the Defence Force. This group must be encouraged to play an increasing role in society life, where an ongoing need exists to improve so many aspects of life, particularly in the rural areas. It is only right that the achievements of the civic action component do not pass unrecognised in this debate. As one who has been fortunate to be privy to some of their achievements, may I commend those involved for the valuable contribution they have made, not only towards the creation of a better understanding between people, but also for their dedication in fulfilling what are often very difficult tasks in the interests of the communities that they have been asked to serve.

Mr Chairman, at the outset I also wish to associate myself with the hon the Minister and those hon members who have extended condolences to the families of those who have lost their lives in the service of our country. It is tragic to note that the hon member for Overvaal has launched such an onslaught on the hon the Minister, insofar as defence is concerned. I can only ask this hon member whether this onslaught was made because we are facing an election, in order to try to get sufficient votes to perhaps swell the numbers of the members of the party.

If this is so, I must say it is grossly shameful that we have to use an important debate of this nature to try to mislead the people outside purely for party political gain.

I believe that whenever due praise and recognition can honestly be given, then it must be done. The excellent and good management by the hon the Minister and his entire department has significantly increased productivity, and an important point to note is that some R30 million was saved from 1979 to 1987.

Operating costs during 1987-88 were the lowest in 10 years, which enabled the money saved to be channelled into capital projects such as the development of new weaponry. Any country which desires peace and security for its people must plan ahead for the unexpected. Therefore, I consider the defence expenditure as an investment for peace and security.

The South West African situation is very topical. The fact of the successes of the SADF is one of the contributory factors which laid the basis for peace in that region. In 1987 the battle at Lomba River and the defeat suffered by both the Cuban and Fapla forces at Cuito Cuanavale, forced them to request negotiations.

I believe that our military preparedness is responsible for the prospects of peace and South Africa’s genuine single factor of stability for South West Africa is proof of our involvement in seeking acceptable solutions. I realise that final Cuban withdrawal from Africa, will have certain implications for South Africa. It could possibly have an influence on our defence expenditure and power levels.

The SADF and the South West African Territory Force should be commended for their patience and cool heads during the recent Swapo incursions. Their calm and realistic approach within the parameters of written agreements enabled South Africa to confront the breaches from a position of strength. Even the West had to acknowledge that South Africa was not the aggressor.

The SADF’s contribution towards prosperity in South West Africa/Namibia over more than two decades is well-known. Medical and agricultural assistance to the local population; job opportunities; the protection of the power lines and water supplies; educational assistance and the establishment of runways and airfields are but a few aspects.

Indian volunteers served in the operational area as marines at Wenla and Mpapela Islands in the Eastern Caprivi. For more than six years their task was the conducting of river operations on the Zambezi and Chobe Rivers. Despite being a relatively small organisation, they have succeeded in building a solid reputation as a disciplined, well-trained unit.

The excellent qualities of our marines apply equally to the small Permanent Force nucleus of the branch, the national servicemen and both the Indian and the Coloured service volunteers. The marine branch is unique in having both Indian and Coloured servicemen in its ranks.

We are indeed proud of them.

The question of the Bushmen has been addressed by several hon members. I, too, am certain that the role the SADF has played and is continuing to play in South West Africa is primarily to ensure peace and stability in that region. I am positive the Defence Force, under the able leadership of the hon the Minister, will not be so naive as to discard the Bushmen. Of that I am certain.

When one looks at Swapo’s actions over the past ten days, one can assume that, being a force which would not have been able to match our Defence Force in South West Africa, they had obviously to find some ways and means of trying to subvert Resolution 435. I am certain that through our hon Minister of Defence and our equally able hon Minister of Foreign Affairs we have salvaged the situation purely from a position of strength.

The Star of 10 April 1989 carries an interesting article. I quote this as a footnote:

I urge the CP, in the interests of national unity, peace and stability, to voice its opinion realistically and truthfully, as it will benefit the entire country, and not to do so simply because we are facing an election.

Mr Chairman, there has just been great dissension in the NP with reference to a speech made by the hon member for Potgietersrus. The dissension is between those NP members who are members of the Broederbond and those who are not. Those who are not members of the Broederbond say they were kept in the dark about the specific secret document to which my hon friend referred. The CP supports the committee appointed by the hon the Minister. In fact, I am going to convey certain thoughts in this connection to hon members.

It is very interesting that the discussion of this Defence Vote is taking place now, at the same time as the events concerning South West Africa. I am sure the hon the Minister would rather have debated the peace process in South West Africa today. That is the aspiration of each of us. No one likes war. No one likes standing at a graveside. I certainly do not.

I thank the Defence Force and the Police who are defending South West Africa’s borders. If I personally could have added something to my life, I would dearly have loved to have under gone better military training. When I see the enthusiasm of my son and our other young men, I am really envious of them. As a young boy I joined the rifle commando of that time, and I was never conscripted for Defence Force training. I did attend camps, however. I still have my old 303-P2 which dates from the previous world war, and I am proud of it. It does not compare with the R4, but I can do target shooting with it.

My involvement in Defence Force matters over a period of many years, as well as my involvement in the 4 SAI military base in my constituency, is and has always been a privilege. I am very proud to tell hon members that Gen Hanekom, Gen Len Meyer and Gen Witkop Badenhorst came from that unit. I may be omitting others, but these are the ones I can remember. I was also on a committee that helped erect the statue and the monument at 4 SAI’s entrance. It was my privilege to see 4 SAI grow from a group of prefabricated structures to what is probably one of the best equipped military bases for the training of young White men for border duty. The final stage of extensions costing approximately R6 million was still in progress when we heard that 4 SAI was becoming a mechanised unit, and at present it is a Ratel unit.

My question to the hon the Minister is the following: Should a unit such as a Ratel unit not be closer to the border, because as far as I know these people are involved in border duty for the greater part of the year, and surely it must cost a pretty penny to move this unit to and fro between Middelburg, Transvaal, and Windhoek? This unit is on the border so often. I have no objection to that, but the officers commanding change without my being able to meet them. Many thanks to the hon the Minister for always informing me as to who the new officer commanding is. Thank you very much for that, I appreciate it.

I want to address an urgent request to the hon the Minister to use the facilities—which were created at 4 SAI at Middelburg at great expense and were never used—which can accommodate a certain number of troops, for their original purpose, viz the training of conscripts. My constituency would dearly like to share in the weal and woe of those young men. I think the hon the Minister must consider my request very seriously in view of the need to save costs, but also in order to train the conscripts from the South-Eastern Transvaal there, instead of sending them all over the country. I accept that there are exceptions and I shall not object if the hon the Minister informs me after the debate why he took this specific step at the time.

The power struggle within the NP has reached such heights that it is making rational people blind to reason. That is probably why the Government made such a fuss when the hon leader of my party referred to the bloodshed in SWA, and was accused of being bloodthirsty when he suggested that the Government use the Defence Force to restore order in SWA. What happened the following day? The Defence Force went in. Rather thank him for reminding hon members that South Africa has the best trained and equipped defence force in Africa, a defence force of which all of us are very proud and which we support fully. The Defence Force has the CP’s full support; we are proud of our men and women in uniform. That includes the Police.

The hon leader also put a second question last week, which led to some indignation, as if he simply claims things he cannot substantiate. He asked whether South Africa was using a long spoon to sup with the Russians. What fabrication was heard from that side? In Sunday’s Rapport, the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs said he would inform the House of Assembly during the discussion of his Vote as to the Russian involvement during the peace negotiations in connection with SWA. Why did he not inform Parliament from the beginning? After all, we are the highest authority, or are we the third highest authority now?

In my opinion it was time to take an urgent look at the system of national service years ago. I am pleased about that committee that was established, and I am sorry if perhaps I am preempting certain things. I do not question the training aspect, which lasts three months, but I do question the 21 months of national service that has to be performed. Depending on when these young men are called up, the Defence Force deprives them of two to three years of their young lives. A White apprentice is two years plus behind the people of colour when he starts working. If one is called up for national service in August, it is very difficult to get a job in view of the fact that one has to do two years’ national service. Then, when one returns and applies for work, there are no vacant posts until January of the following year.

This situation also arises in the case of professional persons. A White medical doctor has to do his national service once he has completed his studies, and he is forced to do that, whereas his Coloured counterparts can practise and establish themselves immediately. No force is involved in their case. Surely that is discrimination in reverse. [Interjections.] During a previous debate the hon member for Germiston said research had been done on why so many doctors left South Africa once they had completed their studies. I think he said that as many as 40% of those who complete their studies at certain universities leave the country. That is certainly not acceptable, and if the question of national service is linked to this, I shall simply call it evasion of national service. They are simply running away.

The same thing happens in various other professions. Can this problem not be considered in depth? South Africa certainly cannot afford to train professional people at great expense only for these people to leave the country subsequently as a result of a certain system that makes it impossible for them to stay. Let us try to retain them. I want to suggest that one look at a training period of three months and a national service period of nine months. Surely that is not impossible.

On behalf of the parents of all the White young men in South Africa, the CP wants to issue a friendly but urgent request to the hon the Minister to pay attention to this matter. I think this can be done without sacrificing the need for available manpower. It is a pity that the hon the Minister did not refer specifically to this in the White Paper.

Since the hon the Minister of Defence and the NP are already accommodating people of colour in the Defence Force, and they must be kept separate, I think one should consider calling up all young men of 18 years and older for national service. Pay all of them the same salary. In this way the hon the Minister can supplement what is needed, even if there have to be four intakes per year and even if this has to be done by way of legislation.

Urgent attention should also be given to the decentralisation of functions to the various commandos. I am thinking of the payment of salaries and local promotions. Call-up instructions can be handled by local commandos, but then this must be done at grass-roots level, not according to numbers. The commandos should also make inputs in respect of applications for the postponement of national service. It must cost the Defence Force thousands of rands to send national servicemen from one side of South Africa to the other. One also thinks of the many conscripts who die in road accidents.

Finally I want to mention one or two matters. The system we have at present is so unwieldy that call-up instructions were recently sent to a person who had died and had had a military funeral. The parents of the deceased reacted to the call-up instructions by informing the writer telephonically of their son’s death. It did not end there, however. The Defence Force Police was then sent to arrest this person. I am not saying this to discredit the Defence Force, but if there were a decentralised system, there would never be a misunderstanding of this kind. There are many such cases, but I am not going to refer to them.

In conclusion, it has come to my attention that conscripts who are members of the APK church were asked during selection whether they were also members of the CP. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I must now react to my friend, the hon member for Middel-burg’s remarks. It is so ironic that hon members always talk about the duplication of this country’s facilities and the costs involved. Now I have the solution. The solution is simple. I should like to suggest that the underutilised facilities in Middelburg be given to 4 SACC. [Interjections.] Thousands of our young men are volunteers— and I want to emphasise the word volunteers. Every year they must turn back because of a lack of accommodation. I am convinced that if we could use Middelburg’s facilities, we would not have this problem next year.

Allow me to link up with the chairman of the joint committee, the hon member for Riversdal, who wished everyone who has been involved with the Defence Force and is now going to retire after many years of hard work, everything of the best. In particular I want to express my appreciation to Commandant Piet Marais who has been the chairman of Armscor for the past 13 years. He made his mark and I want to wish him everything of the best and a rosy future. May he enjoy the well-deserved rest. Millions of South Africans owe thanks to this honourable gentleman, particularly for the rich estate he left them in the field of armaments. After the gold and coal mines Armscor is the country’s biggest employer and provides work for 23 000 people. It has an export order for armaments exceeding R10 000 billion.

In spite of the arms embargo which the UNO imposed on us 11 years ago, Armscor is still just as successful with its arms exhibition in Chili and also at the Rand Easter Show, where thousands of South Africans are afforded the opportunity to broaden their knowledge of armaments. South Africa has reached a level of self-sufficiency in military aviation …

Order! I see an hon member reading a newspaper. He must stop doing so at once. The hon member for Rust Ter Vaal may proceed.

Thank you, Sir. South Africa has reached a level of self-sufficiency in military aviation which makes the boycott campaign virtually useless and even irrelevant. This undoubtedly proves that boycotts and political sanctions can boomerang with far-reaching consequences for the disciples of sanctions. In just over a decade since November 1977 Armscor has established a resourceful arms industry, to which hundreds of private companies are also affiliated. We can be grateful because a technical subsidiary also exists with the expertise to convert a Mirage 3 into a Cheetah.

I want to wish Armscor, the manufacturer of our country’s armaments, everything of the best. I also appreciate the employment opportunities they make available to our people.

I nevertheless want to request the hon the Minister to make a concerted effort to do everything in his power to keep politics very far from our defence strategy. This even applies to Naschem, where employment opportunities are being used as carrots to gain votes. This gives such a big undertaking a bad reputation, because this undertaking’s hands are clean. I am nevertheless warned because people who applied there some time ago for employment do not come into consideration when such employment opportunities arise, simply because they are staunch members of the LP. I hope that the hon the Minister will give me a positive reply with regard to this matter.

I now want to deviate a little and give direct attention to the Defence Force. I appreciate the medical benefits available to members of the Defence Force. I am nevertheless concerned about the fact that there is no continuation of these benefits when members retire. The fact is that people’s medical expenses really increase after they have retired. I hope that the hon the Minister will have this matter investigated and rectified immediately.

Another aspect causing concern is that there is no gratuity and general conditions of service for Coloureds, Indians and Blacks. This is one aspect which causes serving members to work with a heavy heart. I therefore hope that this problem will be speedily eliminated. We must remember that our young men are fighting very hard to guard and protect South Africa and to ensure the security of everyone in this country.

The Namibia affair is a typical example of our involvement. It is such a pity that some hon members, without any understanding, make irresponsible remarks about South West Africa. We are on the threshold of serious political changes, and we are also living in a sensitive atmosphere as regards constitutional political aspects. We must nevertheless not lose sight of the fact that there must first be justice before we can talk about peace.

Peace is something we all want and for that reason we are delighted about the South West Africa peace accord and the withdrawal of the South African soldiers from Angola. We would be even more delighted if the SADF withdrew from Black residential areas. This will rehabilitate the reputation of the Defence Force. Our children are already growing up under a misapprehension and are asking whether these are the borders of this country.

As soon as the SADF withdraws, we will appreciate the real situation in respect of peace in the area. Then statements and remarks like those by Rev Nico Smit of Mamelodi will not be necessary, because the Defence Force cannot afford such behaviour. This organisation is too large to tolerate that kind of behaviour any longer. We must remember that Rev Nico Smit is one of the few South Africans who really knows what is going on in Black residential areas. He experiences the unrest existing there every day. He is acquainted with the real circumstances in connection with apartheid.

He must visit Bonte-heuwel too.

It is crystal clear that the Transvaal is far from Bonteheuwel in the Cape. I want to make it clear that as regards the atmosphere and the situation there is a vast difference between what is going on in Bonteheuwel and what is going on in Mamelodi. [Interjections.] In my opinion the SADF must withdraw so that we can talk about real peace and real change in this country.

Mr Chairman, I find it a pleasure to follow on the hon member for Rust Ter Vaal who touched upon a number of matters covering a wide spectrum. I think he will receive replies to most of the questions which he put. I thank him for the positive way in which he referred to the SADF and Armscor here. We are grateful for that.

Without repeating anything, I should like to associate myself with the tributes, good wishes and thanks which have been expressed toward our officers who have retired or accepted new posts and in particular toward the national servicemen of the SADF who made the supreme sacrifice over the past year.

Today I am thinking particularly of those members who have been wounded and seriously disabled in wars and I want to thank their parents and next-of-kin for the nursing which is taking place and for the way in which they are still supporting those disabled members today.

†Those are the people who did not lack the moral fibre when they were called upon to do their duty for South Africa. There is only a fraction of people today who do lack the moral fibre to support conscription and to do their moral duty towards their country. We pay tribute to all of those who have done so under conscription and voluntarily.

*Today I want to pay tribute to Comdt Piet Marais. I was privileged to get to know him better in the time that I have been the Deputy Minister. I want to say to him briefly that there are many monuments which he has erected, not only to Armscor, but to South Africa.

I shall conclude with one sentence which I used a few days ago in this House when I referred to Armscor as the great success story of modern South Africa and we salute Comdt Piet Marais for his contribution in this regard.

I should very much have liked to exchange a few words with the hon member for Overvaal who is not present here for some reason or other. I shall certainly address a few words to the hon member when I speak again tomorrow. I shall leave it at that meanwhile.

Annually during the budget debate of the Department of Defence tribute is paid in Parliament to the South African Defence Force and Armscor. They quite rightly receive high praise but there is another part of the defence family which is seldom mentioned in Parliament. These are the military veterans’ organisations of which there are 15 in the country at present. They are all affiliated to the umbrella body, the Council of Military Veterans’ Organisations. We are grateful that the executive of the organisation for military veterans is able to attend this debate at the invitation and as the guests of the hon the Minister.

Among the oldest and best known organisations are the Memorable Order of Tin Hats—the Moths, the SA Legion, the Gunners’ Association, the Sappers’ Association, the SA Air Force Association, the SACC Ex-Servicemen’s Legion and the SA Jewish Ex-Service League. The last is the oldest of the veterans’ associations. Among others there is also the SA Ex-Servicewomen’s League. Hon members will note that these organisations serve a wide spectrum of interest groups in our country.

†The question as to what these organisations do for military veterans and pensioners may well be asked. Perhaps it is necessary to point out firstly that, according to a survey that was conducted earlier this year, these organisations have an active membership of approximately 43 000. The activities of these organisations are mainly aimed at the welfare of the veterans and/or their families, the provision of housing for the aged and less-privileged veterans and the nursing of the frail aged and handicapped. These form part of the most important of the activities of these organisations. Some of them concentrate on the rehabilitation of the handicapped. Here one especially thinks of the wonderful work that is being done at St Dunstan’s for members of the SADF who have lost their eyesight. There are also bursaries available for the dependants of veterans, while other organisations have established vacation and recuperation centres.

*As regards the care of the aged and infirm, we find a most impressive picture of housing projects—I should like hon members to listen to these statistics—with a joint estimated value of more than R75 million. The Moths have played the greatest part in this by providing 1 700 of the aged with accommodation and by providing facilities to care for 82 of the aged who are infirm and disabled. The greatest and most impressive of these housing schemes is the Moths’ Flame Lily Park at Queensburgh near Durban which provides 314 married couples and single people with accommodation.

[Inaudible.]

I hear the hon member talking there. He must pay many more visits there. Thank you very much.

Perhaps he should simply move in there!

The hon member will not move in there for a long time yet.

The section for the infirm can accommodate 82 people. In this regard the efforts of the SA Legion, the Gunners’ Association and the SA Air Force Association also deserve special mention.

†The activities of these organisations are not merely limited to veterans. Every one of them also has a soft spot for the serving soldier, especially the national servicemen. I would like to refer to just one example, namely that of the Moths’ Fund for hospitalised troops. This fund which is also a fundraising institution was established just after Operation Savannah. Since then this fund has donated in excess of R2 million in the form of medical and surgical equipment. This fund has wired the military hospitals in Pretoria and Cape Town for a 4-channel TV and video system while also donating some 60 TV sets to these hospitals.

Melita House in Voortrekkerhoogte is another example of what this fund has achieved. This is where the next-of-kin of seriously ill and wounded soldiers can be accommodated while their loved ones are being cared for. Melita House has been equipped with a variety of household apparatus, including a washing machine, TV set and so on. Even a bus has been provided for transport.

The fund has also installed an intercom system and music centre in the hospital at Grootfontein. Various sickbays in the operational area have been supplied with air-conditioning and cooling units—also courtesy of the fund. Besides all of this, each and every soldier who is admitted to a sickbay or hospital receives the now famous “troopy pack” containing a few necessary items such as toiletries and reading and writing material—again supplied by this fund.

*The SA Legion is recognised by the Department of National Health and Population Development as the mouthpiece of veterans as regards pension affairs. Thousands of veterans have already benefited from the unceasing efforts of the Legion to ensure that every veteran receives the pension to which he is entitled. This is a great task which a small group of dedicated veterans carry out with great compassion for the benefit of their comrades-in-arms.

For some years the Government has granted official recognition to these organisations through the liaison division for military veterans of the Ministry of Defence. The Council of Military Veterans’ Organisations was also recently recognised as the Government’s mouthpiece for military veterans. The chairman of the council, Col Anderson, serves as the Minister’s adviser on affairs affecting military veterans.

It is further worthy of note that the Order of the Star of South Africa has already been awarded to 14 office-bearers of veterans’ organisations for their service in the interests of their veteran comrades-in-arms. I personally am in very close contact with these organisations and I want to say that, if there is a group of people in South Africa of whom we can really be sincerely proud for their enthusiasm and compassion for their fellow men, we need only look at these organisations. They deserve the sincere thanks, appreciation and praise of every person in this country.

They are doing great work and this work may not grind to a halt. That is why I want to appeal today—to younger members of the Defence Force too—to join these organisations, which are based on such a firm foundation and which have been established by hard work over many years, so that they may carry on this good work in future.

†In conclusion I would like to call on the public of South Africa to have an open heart and an open hand when they are called upon for financial assistance. This great work must continue. I thank everybody who has worked so hard in past.

Mr Chairman, at the beginning of this discussion on the Vote, I wish to present a few introductory ideas to the Committee. I received a lovely message which, in my opinion, is appropriate on this occasion. I wish to read it. It is Isaiah 41, verse 18 and reads:

Even in Isaiah’s time environment affairs were the order of the day and important to the people of those days. Hence the message in Isaiah. It is just as applicable today.

Due to the complex composition of the Department of Environment Affairs it is obvious that certain activities will be in the spotlight more often than others. I think it will be suitable if I say a few words about each of the main components in these opening remarks of mine. As hon members know, the department consists of the following components: The Weather Bureau, the Department of Sea Fisheries, the Department of Forestry and the Department of Environment Conservation. I want to make it very clear that no one department is more important than the other. We give each one the attention it deserves. Each one of the respective divisions has a daily meaning in our existence.

The results of the work of the Weather Bureau, namely weather forecasts, is certainly well-known to most South Africans. Weather conditions have significant influences on our agricultural production, our water supplies, our transport systems, our industries, in other words on the economy as a whole.

It goes without saying that improved weather forecasts, with advice about the expected weather conditions for the following four to five days, have great economic advantages for the country. That is why I am striving to expand the activities of the Weather Bureau, and at present the restructuring of the Weather Bureau is being investigated to increase effectiveness. As a result of the very important function that it has, the idea is that the Weather Bureau will not only provide a so-called minimum service, but that special services must be made available to the consumers. I immediately want to add that in the investigation we shall also investigate the possibility of privatising certain services of the Weather Bureau and of letting the consumers pay for the service. We can continue the discussion in this respect later.

As far as sea fisheries are concerned, I want to mention for the information of the hon members that the wholesale value of the Republic’s fish production in 1988 increased to more than R1 billion for the first time. Our fish resources are great foreign exchange earners and it is well-known that the worldwide demand for fish and fish products, especially proteins, is increasing with leaps and bounds.

I have a clipping in my possession from the International Herald Tribune of 10 April, in which they refer to the world shortage of fish, the immense increase in demand and the extreme pressure being exerted on world fish resources. Some countries are so concerned about their fish resources that they are considering dramatic and drastic punishment for people who poach their fish. I wish to quote one paragraph from this article. It reads as follows:

This gives an indication of how serious people are about their fish resources if they consider the death penalty for fish poaching. The demand has increased greatly, and this results in our fish resources also experiencing increasing pressure and that we shall have to be very careful not to harm these resources permanently by overfishing.

I am aware that the steps we are taking— the department, the researchers and I—with regard to quotas, licenses, permits etc, are not always popular. However, I wish to give hon members the assurance that it is done with the best intentions in order to ensure the optimum utilisation of our source, that is to take out the best without harming the resource.

†I am satisfied that the good progress made by the department’s marine scientists in the recent past has made it possible for us to judge more accurately what the strength of the resource is. Research is very costly, especially at sea. However, I think it is absolutely necessary that we continue to spend the amount of money—or even more—that we are spending on research at present.

The work of the Sea Fisheries Research Institute has provided me with a very sound basis for decision-making, and I place a considerable premium on the integrity and impartiality of our scientists. Among their achievements I would like to mention the benefits that have accrued from an improved method of anchovy stock assessment. This resulted in a record catch of pelagic fish of close to 700 000 metric tons in 1988, meaning that less fish-meal had to be imported and thus saving millions of rand in foreign exchange.

*With reference to Forestry, I wish to say that at the moment it is calculated that the capital investment in our forest industry is approximately R11 billion, and that this industry is an excellent example of co-operation between the public and private sectors. The State still controls approximately 30% of the forest areas in the country, but the private sector’s share in the processing procedures is well into the 90%. We can therefore rightly say that Forestry, like Fisheries, has already been privatised to a large degree.

As far as nature conservation is concerned, I wish to remark that people are becoming increasingly aware of the necessity to preserve the environment. If one reads newspapers throughout the world, it is very unlikely that in the specific copy one picks up, there will be nothing about nature conservation. It is an indication that the populations of the world are becoming more aware of their environment. It is an objective which we strive for, also through our programme of environment study. Hon members would have taken note of a White Paper that was tabled recently regarding environment study.

Unfortunately it is true that of all living organisms, the human is the only one who destroys and damages its environment to such an extent that it becomes a danger to its own existence. Development unfortunately also results in pollution. We shall have to deal with that in the future. In the industrial countries we increasingly find that the handling of fixed waste, the problem of water pollution and poisonous waste products, are becoming problems for which there is no solution.

During the past week hon members would have seen the article by Dr Douglas Hey in Die Burger, in which he addresses the global environmental problem. He mentions the example of ships that sail the oceans while they are laden with poisonous waste products, and with which they do not know what to do.

Environment affairs is therefore not only a national problem. It is an international problem. From the department’s side we are trying to liaise with the international community with regard to research and planning for the handling of the environment. I look forward to the contributions of the hon members, to which I shall reply later.

Mr Chairman, it is a great pleasure to be speaking after the hon the Minister, who gave an introductory message to this discussion of his Vote.

Hon members will allow me to thank the hon the Minister’s private secretary, Mrs Tertia Burnett, on behalf of the participants in this debate, for the lovely buttonholes which she made available to all the hon members participating in this debate. Without the hon the Minister’s knowledge, we have come to know Mrs Burnett quite well in the time that she has been the hon the Minister’s secretary, but he need not be afraid.

The hon the Minister says he hopes that we have not come to know her too well. However, she is a competent woman with whom members of Parliament find it very pleasant to work. We want to thank her very sincerely once again for the nice idea of buttonholes.

I would like to associate myself with what the hon the Minister said in regard to the importance of his department’s functions. If we look at the expenditure appropriation of the department in comparison to those of other departments, we see that it is one of the smaller appropriations. This emphasises the fact that this department is not concerned with the development of infrastructure in the country, but that it is a management department which fulfils one of the most important underlying functions in the management of the country. The hon the Minister has just referred to the importance of environmental conservation.

Throughout history, man has geared himself towards growth, namely growth in populations, living standards, business turnover and technological development, but on the limited surface area of the world. The growth of his natural resources will eventually have to be replaced by balance. For that reason goals and aspirations of countries and communities will have to be adapted so that this striving for growth may ultimately be replaced by an environmental equilibrium. It is in this sphere that the functions of the hon the Minister and his department lie—a comprehensive function which can determine whether or not the equilibrium of the future is worthwhile.

In South Africa, where the growth in population figures for the following approximately 80 to 90 years will, according to estimates, still continue, it is the responsibility of the Department of Environment Affairs to ensure that the growth which takes place in the meantime, takes place in such a way that the equilibrium of the following century in the total environmental system is not ultimately brought about as a result of the destructive effect of the degrading and destruction of the environment and its natural resources, but rather by the upgrading of the total quality of the population and living conditions. The hon the Minister can only achieve this by means of responsible management of the environment. In this regard I strongly doubt whether the community completely understands how fundamental the functions of his department are to the quality of life of the generation which is being born this year.

The way in which his department maintains the policy and the management framework and the way in which the department exercises physical environmental control over the resources over which they have direct control, will largely determine the quality of the environmental balance which our children will experience one day.

The comprehensive annual report of his department projects an image of the expertise of his officials. It projects an image of their view of the future, of which I want to say only this. It gives one the confidence of knowing that within the limitations of viability, the achievements of his department can be compared with the best in the world, and I want to congratulate him and his departmental officials on that.

He referred briefly to the weather bureau. It is true that the weather bureau, at the insistence of the taxpayers, can provide certain basic services. I welcome the fact that the hon the Minister indicated that the additional functions—speciality functions—with regard to, aviation and shipping for example, can be privatised.

The fishing industry is an important industry. It is a pity that the Sea Fisheries Act which was adopted by Parliament last year—although with an amendment at the request of hon members of the House of Representatives—cannot be implemented at the moment as a result of the views of hon members in that House with regard to the composition of the Quota Board. One hopes that they will reconsider their standpoints with regard to the merits of this matter.

This legislation on environmental conservation, which is presently being dealt with by the joint committee, will be discussed by Parliament in more detail at a later stage. In the meantime, a matter which is becoming very clear is the wide need for a system of integrated environmental management, as proposed by the Council for the Environment. It is my personal view that the department, with its large responsibility, should be given more muscle than it has at the moment. Environmental conservation is so fundamental to the ultimate quality of our population and our lives that one would like to have more enforcing powers in this regard.

†I know it is the official view of the former PFP, and maybe the personal view of the hon member for Bryanston, that the opposite course should be taken when it comes to all other pieces of legislation in order that there should be less power in the hands of the Government.

I think formal environmental evaluations could probably be handled in a more decisive manner. At the moment they are not compulsory in the development of projects in South Africa, although private developers and Government agencies and departments, for instance Water Affairs, have done evaluations on major projects.

*In terms of the new Act, it is in fact now possible to make environmental evaluations legally enforcible at the discretion of the Minister. I want to confine myself to saying that although one would like to see more muscle, I do not think that in the circumstances of South Africa with regard to environmental management, it is at present viable to give more muscle, even if one would like to see it.

With regard to environmental evaluations, the Department of Water Affairs deserves a great deal of praise for its actions. Even in the early seventies, this department took the environment into account in a formal way by means of the development of projects. Today, the department recognises nature as one of the rightful contenders for water, even if this is not stated in the Act. The Department of Water Affairs is a proud example to other Government bodies and to the private sector with regard to the way in which scientific and ecological investigations are done and the local public is included in the evaluation of the environmental impact of large projects.

The whole matter of the environment coincides very well with the composition of this department, which has jurisdiction over water affairs as well, under the control of the hon the Deputy Minister. Water and the environment form part of the total natural resources of South Africa.

Seeing that we are endowed with such sparse natural resources, it is pleasing to see that these two departments have been combined, but that the one department goes so far as to supplement the other and is an example to so many agencies and private developers in South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, like my hon colleague, I should like to convey my sincere thanks to Mrs Tertia Burnett for the buttonhole. Although we do not know her as well as he does, we hope to get to know her in the years to come. †I would like to react to what my colleague the hon member for Caledon has just said. As far as our co-operation on the quota board is concerned, our stand is very clear. We have said that we do not think that enough has been done to find a juristic person to be the chairman as laid down by this Act. Until we are satisfied that this has been done, I am afraid that this will be our stand for the foreseeable future.

It is obvious that we are nearing an election. If one reads the newspapers, one would know who the pro-Government newspapers are and who the pro-opposition newspapers are. I believe that a portfolio such as Environment Affairs should not be politicised, but living in the South Africa of today, that is not possible because the Government of today categorizes all South Africans into ethnic compartments.

If one looks at last night’s The Argus, one will see a huge heading that says: “Row over export of rare cycads”. It continues, if I may just quote:

Hon members will notice that I refer to an alleged allegation because, going through the newspapers this morning, I found that it was only The Argus group of newspapers that carried this report. I did not see anything in the Afrikaans Press. I obviously assume that those who wrote about this yesterday support the hon member for Bryanston’s group.

There is no doubt that the cycads were exported. In some circles it is said that those cycads were worth at least R2 million. Various experts have expressed grave concern at the manner in which they were exported. On 24 February this Extended Public Committee passed the Forest Amendment Bill prohibiting the illegal picking of seven-week ferns and laying down stiff sentences and/or fines.

South Africa’s species of cycads are extinct in the wild and are on the verge of total extinction. Yet we are not even sure what species was exported. To me this is also stealing from all future generations of South Africans. I want to request the hon the Minister to investigate the whole allegation and issue a statement.

Moving on, I wish to refer to a report in The Argus of 3 April 1989, entitled “Gravel from lake—Betty’s Bay rumpus”. I can tell hon members who do not know the area I am now discussing, that it is one of the most scenic drives, not only in South Africa but also in the world. Many famous people have lived there, such as a past premier of South Africa, Dr Verwoerd, whose family have a house there, Supreme Court judges and Jock van Niekerk, the former rugby wing. I have been fortunate in that I worked there for many, many years. I have come to know the people and the residents there and was surprised when I saw this report in The Argus of 3 April.

What has happened there is that a new municipality has now been elected and started quarrying gravel from one of the freshwater lakes, which is at present dried up because of drought. Not only has this scarred the area in and around this lake, but it is also affecting the birdlife, particularly the European swallows which roost in the reed beds before starting their winter migration to the northern hemisphere. What alarms me most is the municipality’s total lack of concern and perhaps arrogance in dealing with genuine queries by conservationists, the local branch of the Botanical Society as well as the Ratepayers Association. The mayor, Mr Gerrie Fourie’s real interest, it seems, is in how he thumped those who opposed him in the last municipal elections, rather than preserving a unique natural resource.

The area under discussion is an ecological parish and if the quarrying of gravel is not stopped immediately it could become an unwanted legacy on the conscience of our Environment Department. Copies of letters to the municipality have been sent to the Department of Nature Conservation and the Department of Environment Affairs and of Water Affairs, without any response. The council now says that because of these actions the matter had to defer to higher authority and I would like to know who the higher authority in this case should be. May I ask the hon the Minister and his department whether the matter has come to their attention? In this regard I would like to quote from The Argus of 3 April. It says:

This of course comes from the local branch of the Botanical Society and the Ratepayers Association. We should be happy to know that there are people out there who share our concern for the protection of the environment. However, I believe we owe it to them to immediately stop this wanton destruction.

I would like to request the following from the hon the Minister, who I know shares my love for nature and the environment. Firstly, that he consults the relative department and have all gravel quarrying halted immediately. Secondly, that an inspection in loco be made, meeting delegations of all parties concerned and, thirdly, that an expert ecologist be consulted to do an environmental impact study. After all, gravel one can buy, but the environment one cannot buy.

I now briefly wish to touch on toxic waste. It is common knowledge that toxic waste is being dumped all over Africa by First World countries. I know that the hon the Minister, in a speech some time in February, categorically stated that he will not allow this in South Africa. However, what alarms me is an article in Die Republikein of 21 December 1988 under the heading, “Angola word gifpot”. It goes on to say:

That will be worth R5 million. That is the situation in Angola. However, what is even more disturbing is the following article in Sunday Star of 6 November 1988 under the heading: “Plot to dump poison foiled”:

It goes on to say:

I do not have to tell hon members how dangerous that is. At the moment, it is said, we are able to perhaps process toxic waste. At a meeting yesterday of the committee—hon members will bear me out on this—comment was made how we are battling at the moment just to get rid of our internal waste, like plastic, tins, etc. My fear is that if we think in terms of processing toxic waste, the waste that we import will have to be dumped somewhere. Hon members are aware of our tremendous international balance of payment debt, coupled with disinvestment. Therefore one is just afraid that it would not be too long—due to factors like these—before this country will be tempted to also do what we say we will not do now.

We are a growing country and we need land and water to house and feed our population. Once we contaminate these two essentials our country will be doomed.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow the hon member for Retreat. He is a very active member of the joint committee and I am quite sure that after due consultation he will heed the request of the chairman of the committee as expressed here this afternoon.

About three years ago the National Parks Board in South Africa issued a policy statement on the role, inter alia, of national parks in the life of a nation. I would like to quote briefly from this statement. It reads:

As in the case of cycads, the national parks and the provincial administrations have definitely been gene pools.

*I cannot speak about the Cape from personal experience, but the Transvaal Provincial Administration has more than enough cycads to supply all public buildings, parks and schools. This also applies to the Kruger National Park in my constituency, which has enough cycads in its nursery for every member of the public who wants to buy one. I can really see no valid reason why the public cannot enjoy the benefits of those gene-pools for the further generation and distribution of these rare plants.

Our national parks form the largest component of all the protected areas. They make up approximately 42% of the total area. In its policy statement, to which I referred a moment ago, the National Parks Board—I am very glad that they have now accepted the name by which they are generally known—defined the function and nature of national parks as—

Wilderness areas restricting the activities of man to a minimum and serving as unspoilt reference areas are being set aside. Control by the highest authority is emphasised. This is in line with the view of the international community, as defined by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources, the IUCN.

Because national parks must of necessity be large, it is very difficult to establish new parks. Expansion can, in fact, take place on a limited scale, and it is therefore encouraging that, according to the report of the National Parks Board, the area covered by national parks increased by 17 014 hectares during the year under review.

However, national parks are so important to the country as a whole, as I will indicate later, that money should never be a consideration when an opportunity for expansion presents itself, because many of those opportunities disappear later. I maintain that this is one of the best investments we can make for the future.

Contractual parks are a new concept, but it is encouraging to see that agreements have already been reached. I believe that they will be more popular in the future when they are more widely known.

The flagship of the national parks, the Kruger National Park, is in my constituency and it remains one of the most important tourist attractions in our country. The number of visitors increased during 1988 from 474 066 to 563 989, which represents an increase of 18,5%. Occupancy of chalets was 83%, and up to 31 March of this year the number of visitors increased to 625 777, which represents a further increase of 10,9%, and the bed occupancy of chalets was 92% for the year.

On completion of the accommodation which is now being planned, the maximum development potential of the Kruger National Park will have been attained, namely approximately 400 beds, after which it will be difficult to achieve further development without damaging resources. Day-visitors have also almost reached their full quota. During the year under review we found that there was an increase of 26,2% in day-visitors and this was due particularly to the development of nearby holiday resorts and sectional title schemes which feed on the nature reserve. One could say that hikes are fully booked and are supported by 96,3% of the number of visitors.

I believe that South Africa is not yet receiving its full quota of overseas tourists. I believe the numbers can increase dramatically. It is difficult to compare our situation with that of another country, but if we compared it, for example, with Spain, which has a population of 42 million, we would see that they have 44 million tourists annually. It is not necessary for me to spell out to hon members the advantages of this as far as job opportunities, foreign exchange, etc, are concerned. I therefore believe that a dramatic increase in our number of tourists is possible in the future. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, man is the most destructive of God’s creation. I say this because man takes from nature more than he requires, and he is never satisfied. There is a saying which goes: “Show me a satisfied man, and I will give you a satisfied world.” This is not a new phenomenon, but dates back to time immemorial.

South Africa’s history starts with Jan van Rie-beeck. It must be noted that soon after his arrival at the Cape he recorded that his men killed and ate a large hippopotamus which they had caught in a marsh. Today the site is known as Cape Town’s Church Square. In those days wild animals were in plentiful supply, but it was not that way for long.

South Africa’s first wildlife conservation measure was issued by Jan van Riebeeck on 14 April 1654 in the form of this instruction:

He was worried that soon there would be no more penguins left to eat.

South Africa’s second wildlife conservation measure was enacted when Jan van Riebeeck curtailed continual seal hunting in order to allow the seals time to breed and mature. In spite of this, within a period of three years Van Riebeeck’s men managed to destroy more than 48 000 seals. There is on record a report to the governor by a faithful servant of the Company which read:

The first actual proclamation on nature conservation issued in South Africa, drafted by Jan van Riebeeck, came into force in 1657. The last section of this proclamation decreed that all shooting of birds and game animals was prohibited and that the Dutch East India Company alone retained the right to hunt. He feared that uncontrolled hunting would render game scarce.

Much later in 1680 Governor Simon van der Stel imposed penalties for illegal hunting. He wrote:

Yet despite this, the last bloubok in South Africa was shot in about 1799, and in 1883 the quagga too became extinct.

The last quagga, a female, died on 12 August 1883. She died not on the South African veld, nor on those wild plains. Instead, the solitary survivor of the race lay down and died in a cage in the Amsterdam Zoo in Holland. Nine days after the death of this lonely quagga, a group of people concerned at what was happening to wild life in Natal met in Durban and formed a game protection society.

The grave implications of human damage to the self-sustaining mechanisms of the ecosphere are all too clear, but concerted action to halt the damage or reverse its effects has begun only recently, spearheaded by a diverse assortment of individuals and organisations broadly termed the environmental or conservation movement.

The first durable expression of public concern for the environment on a worldwide basis occurred only in the middle of this century with the formation of the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources and The World Wildlife Fund.

The next popular environmental cause to be taken up had less to do with wildlife than with the very fabric of the ecosphere— the air, water and sources of food that were being contaminated by the outputs of our own progressive activities, like smoke, pesticides, oil and radioactive materials.

The 1960s saw a widespread re-examination of the values of progress and an expression of alarm at the destruction of natural resources progress entailed.

Towards the end of the 1970s the issues had multiplied to include topics such as the limitations of conventional energy resources, habitat destruction and what to do about Antarctica, the last true wilderness on the planet.

In 1980 environmental concerns became truly global. The sorry state of the ark was revealed by the findings of the Brandt Commission and the Global 2000 study. It was finally realised that rapid deterioration and loss of natural resources were outstripping human demand many times faster than most people had believed.

The world conservation strategy was launched, insistent that conservation of natural resources and human welfare were inextricably linked. Noah’s army, its ranks swelled by many scientists and educators, some politicians and business executives and innumerable ordinary people responded vigorously. People began to talk and act among themselves and with each other directly, within their own communities and between communities across national boundaries. In spite of all efforts to conserve our natural resources, we still find wide scale destruction.

The last rhino count has revealed that Natal has 1 190 white rhino and just over 400 black rhino in the Parks Board controlled reserves.

These rhino are endangered as numbers dwindle due to the effects of large-scale poaching.

Parks Board officials have to work long hours at a very meagre pay. I had the privilege to visit the Umfolozi and Hluhluwe game reserves during the course of last year. I can tell this House that the Parks Board officials are a dedicated lot who work not for the love of money but because they love their work. Game rangers in KwaZulu get a better salary than their counterparts in the Republic. It is said that if one pays peanuts one gets monkeys. This would be appropriate if those game rangers would change into monkeys—then it will be fine. However, they need a better salary.

It is heartening to know that the White Paper on Environmental Education has been introduced. Although there are many reasons for failure, perhaps the most obvious is that knowing is not the same as caring. Facts do not grow into ethics. Motivation is more important than information. There is certainly a place for tough environmental legislation and its application.

Mr Chairman, in the first instance I also want to thank Mrs Burnett for the buttonhole. It was really a privilege to receive it.

The hon member who spoke before me, gave a historical review.

†He gave us an historical review with which I cannot differ.

*Sir, I would like to make my contribution and it is an agreeable task to be able to participate in the discussion of the Vote of the Department of Environment Affairs. In all its functions, the department is in charge of environmental management in order to conserve the heritage of our country for the generation to come and to create living conditions which will be enriching for all of us. The hon the Minister’s review and reference to aspects of conservation is fully supported by all of us and the sentiments which he expressed here, meet with our approval. The conservation and protection of our ecological systems and the judicious utilisation and management of the natural resources is an absolute prerequisite for a meaningful balance between man and his environment. It is indeed a comprehensive task which rests on the shoulders of the Department of Environment Affairs and of every citizen of the Republic of South Africa.

This brings me to the appropriation of Environment Affairs, with a total sum of R160,61 million, distributed over and divided into six sections, namely the administration, conservation forestry, environmental utilisation, marine development, weather bureau services and auxiliary and associated services such as sea transport, combating of oil pollution and Antarctic and island research. In the ten minutes at my disposal it would be practically impossible to discuss the appropriation in detail. However, it is very clear that with an increase of only R10,925 million there can be no question of growth in real terms; on the contrary, with the present inflation rate of 15% there is in fact a decrease. In our opinion the department and its personnel should be congratulated on what they have achieved with the smaller budget as allocated to those seven sub-sections.

The extent of the environmental policy of the Department of Environment Affairs and everything which that entails, shows, however, that with regard to research there can be no question of sufficient funds having been appropriated for this purpose. Under this Vote, only two sums can be found, namely that of R70 000 for forest research and that of R250 000 for Antarctic and island research. In our opinion, we are not going to succeed in adequately protecting the environment if research does not take place across the whole spectrum of environmental conservation on a continuous footing and at an increased tempo. This is seen particularly in the light of the spoiling, the decline and even the destruction of the environment. Urgent attention to this aspect is extremely important.

Apart from the matters which fall directly under environment affairs and of which the financial implications are mirrored in the appropriation of the Department of Environment Affairs, there are also other environmental dangers which are damaging to man in the environment and which fall under other departments, for example, those of Water Affairs and of Health Services, as well as other departments.

During the discussion of a private motion, we paid a great deal of attention to the problem with regard to environmental matters and functions of those departments. My submissions dealt with air pollution, particularly in the South Eastern Transvaal, as a result of the high degree of acid rain caused by the generating of electrical power by Eskom. There are already signs of serious damage with regard to agricultural crops as well as the acidification of agricultural land, which has to be combated at considerable cost.

If one adds to this the pollution caused by ferrochrome and ferro-alloy from heavy industries and the future doubling of this in South Africa and particularly in the South Eastern regions, the situation becomes considerably worse. All the furnaces will have to be provided with more modern purification equipment in order to bring the levels of air pollution within acceptable limits.

All the light industries and local managements that are responsible for smoke pollution can also be added to these above-mentioned industries. Although certain smoke-controlled regions have been demarcated in order to exercise control, there are, at this moment, still many local managements which do not enforce the necessary control measures.

It is estimated that approximately R30 million was spent during the past year on upgrading and purification equipment to bring air pollution under control. Nevertheless, there are research projects which indicate that the problem is not being combated to a degree worth mentioning and that South Africa’s levels of air pollution are of the highest in the world.

If this is the result after certain corrections and upgradings have been done, one cannot but conclude that research and more research is of the utmost importance. Preferably, it must be research which is initiated on the instruction of the hon the Minister of Environment of Affairs or the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development. Serious engagement on the part of the Department of Environment Affairs by means of environmental research can only be an investment for the future. My request to the hon the Minister and to the present Government is that more funds should be made available for research.

I want to raise a matter which relates to the fishing quota of the West Coast Pelagic Fishermen’s Association in respect of anchovy on the West Coast. This is a quota which is granted to traditional participants and which is regarded as equal to every other quota in the industry. This quota was summarily taken away without any stating of reasons or an explanation, and was replaced by a bonus system, which can under no circumstances be compared with the value of a fishing quota. My pertinent questions to the hon the Minister are: What influenced him to withdraw the quota, whether or not there was any pressure from outside, and if so, from whom, and what the motivation for that was? I also want to know who granted the initial quota, and whether or not the West Coast Pelagic Fishermen’s Association disregarded any rules or regulations which could have led to the withdrawal of the quota, and whether the fishermen were consulted with regard to this decision.

It is cause for concern that a Quota Board exists, which grants quotas, but that the Minister is able to cancel them without provocation and replace them with a bonus system or a financial arrangement.

According to the fishermen’s association, they are now financially worse off, while the hon the Minister promised last year already that, regardless of any action, they would not be worse off. Surely the entire quota system was investigated by the Diemont Commission and the pelagic fishermen were accepted as new entrants.

With the removal of this fishing quota, the fishermen are being denied an opportunity to make an investment in that industry. The statement can therefore correctly be made that the pelagic source is possibly being reserved for large fishing companies. The further question is then necessarily what sort of investment can the fishermen look forward to if they no longer qualify for a quota. They cannot even make an investment as boat owners, because that is also closed to them.

It simply seems strange that the so-called loose quotas have all been converted into catch bonuses, namely the South West Africa pelagic fishing quota, the West Coast pelagic quota, the crayfish quota to the 410 surviving crayfish catchers and the perlemoen quota, of which the proceeds are being held in trust, while the Kalk Bay crayfish quota is still regarded as a quota. In my opinion, it is time that a commission of enquiry be appointed to investigate the whole matter. Many questions are being asked in the industry because the actions of the hon the Minister differ so vastly from those of his predecessor, the late Mr Wylie, while large numbers of fishermen are concerned about their future.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Nigel, who has just spoken, complained because he had only 10 minutes at his disposal and was unable to discuss a significant portion of the Appropriation in that time. However, that party only requested one speaking allocation. Is that how important this Environment Affairs Vote is to them? They only asked for 10 minutes, whilst they could have received more time. [Interjections.] That is a fact.

†The DP have two speakers here. That is the importance that they attach to conservation. [Interjections.] They are more interested in political conservation. That is their only motivation. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

No, Sir. That hon member has had 10 minutes; I have only eight minutes, two of which have already been wasted.

†First of all I would like to thank the department for the new format of the annual report. It contains a wealth of information and is certainly highly readable. I want to congratulate the hon the Minister and the Director-General and his staff for the excellent work and the effort that went into this beautiful report.

*I should like to speak about river pollution. When one looks at section 23(1) of the Water Act, one sees that it provides, inter alia, that anyone who wilfully renders water less fit for use than it would have been if the person had not performed that act, is guilty of an offence. There are various forms of river pollution. There is that formed by drifting matter such as plastic, cans, etc; matter such as fine sand and silt which is swept along by storm water in suspension; dissolved substances such as chemicals; poisons such as pesticides; micro organisms such as bacteria; radio-activity and heat. These are but a few.

What are the sources of river pollution? The primary and major source is naturally storm water and erosion. Storm water causes erosion when it flows over over-grazed veld, for example. Rain-water flows over mine dumps, silt dumps and through slum quarters and transports all kinds of invisible filth to our rivers and streams.

The next aspect I wish to touch on, is that of sewerage water. What is it? It includes water from toilets, baths, restaurants, hotels, hospitals and factories. All these sources contribute to the organic and mineral pollution which ends up in our water.

In the field of agriculture water is polluted by fertilisers and pesticides which eventually end up in the rivers.

There is also pollution by various kinds of salts which originate chiefly in the mining industry.

Effluent from industries such as that from fertilizer factories, power stations, etc, very often gives rise to serious chemical pollution when it is discharged into our rivers and streams.

†The picture I have tried to sketch is certainly one with serious implications for the environment. We have a law which is totally ignored by many people. It is our duty to educate the public and to make them aware of protecting our river systems. We have an arbor day when the public and the youth in particular are invited to participate in the planting of trees. We had a very successful marine day recently. I do not want to go into details but it was certainly very successful in making people aware of how fragile our marine resources are.

I should like to propose that we give consideration to calling a national rivers day. The argument might be that we will have a rivers day and then a mountains day and then a catchment area day. Where do we stop? I believe that because the public is enthusiastic and crave knowledge about the environment we will get more help from them the more they know about the environment. It will be in the interests of South Africa to educate the public about the importance of our rivers because that is the water we eventually drink and use in our everyday lives.

Natal started some five years ago and the Cape is also going to celebrate a rivers day supported by the Wildlife Protection Society of South Africa. What is to be done to make the public aware?

On that particular day they arrange canoeing events, different kinds of watersports on the rivers and lagoons; they run courses for the public on the importance of pollution and soil erosion and how this can be prevented. They teach the public what catchment areas are and how our lagoon systems function. They also teach the farmers of the importance of soil erosion and the mismanagement of ploughing methods. All these things are taught on that day and in the end everybody gets together to round it off with a nice barbecue in a typical South African fashion.

How are crops being planted? Many farmers plant their crops right up to the river banks. The building of bridges near rivermouths, lagoons or estuaries is most important because if the pillars are placed incorrectly, they can have a damaging effect on the environment. This is something which we have seen before. I could go on in this vein.

In the last minute or two I should like to call upon the hon the Minister to seriously consider making this a national effort. I believe the public has made a start in the Cape and Natal. I do not know about the Orange Free State or the Transvaal. I believe that if this can be coordinated on a national basis, there will be more drive to it and there will be more public awareness of rivers day. I believe this is only one positive way in which we can tackle this serious problem.

Mr Chairman, I shall certainly ignore the first part of the speech of the hon member who has just resumed his seat. He made one of those trivial comments that one has come to expect from that hon member. It is regrettable that he should have introduced a political note in a debate of this nature which is largely a non-political debate. I thought it was out of place, and perhaps I should leave the matter at that and proceed to the speech of the hon member for Caledon.

Firstly, I should like to congratulate the hon member for Caledon, the new chairman of the Joint Committee on Environment Affairs. At the same time I should like to say a word of thanks to the outgoing chairman, the hon member for Uitenhage. I believe that both of them are admirably suited to the positions that they did fill and are filling at the present time. I know the hon member for Caledon as a dedicated conservationist and I am very pleased to have him in that position. He talked about many of the things that I am going to talk about today. He talked about conservation in very general terms and the question of conservation management. This is a subject which lies very close to my heart and one that I want to pursue in my speech.

I should also like to refer to the speech made by the hon member for Retreat, specifically on the subject of cycads. I am glad that the hon member is aware of what is going on. I appreciated his comments and should like to say that it actually does not fall under the jurisdiction of this hon Minister but under the jurisdiction of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning who has responsibility for the provinces. The hon member will realise a little later in my speech that I have a complaint about this particular matter too.

I should also like to tell him that the species of cycads have been made known by the department in an answer to a question of mine in the House of Assembly. They are virtually all endangered species and many of them are priceless. Cycads grow very slowly, and many of them are two, three or even four hundred years old, judging by their size, and we are stealing cycads. South Africa is going to be the poorer for what has left our borders.

In reading through the report of the department, I was fairly forcibly struck by something which constitutes a major problem as far as I am concerned. Environmental debates have in the past been friendly affairs indeed, and I believe the hon the Minister does a good job. He has a very good philosophy on the whole subject of the environment, and I appreciate what he is doing. I want to start my argument from that premise: I am not quarrelling with this hon Minister.

Environmental debates have been friendly affairs in the past and I believe that it is common cause on all sides in all three Houses that the environment has to be protected. Discussion has been as to how this end can best be achieved and protection of the environment is not a political matter.

Because of the amount of environmental degradation that is taking place around us every day, I am going to be highly critical today about the present situation.

I said that the reading of the department’s annual report triggered this off in my mind. The various facets of the department’s responsibilities are detailed there, and the hon the Minister detailed them himself today. The department is responsible for sea fisheries. This is a major responsibility. The department is responsible for forestry. This is another major responsibility but it is also ripe for privatisation. The department is responsible, for example, for meteorological services. This is an important responsibility.

However, when it comes to environmental conservation itself, one suddenly realises how little responsibility the department actually has, and then one starts to analyse where and in which department other conservation orientated matters are handled at the present time.

Let us start with the whole question of nature conservation as such. The National Parks Board falls under the jurisdiction of the hon the Minister of Environment Affairs but responsibility for provincial nature conservation lies with the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning because this Ministry deals with all provincial affairs. For example, in the Transvaal we have the Kruger National Park falling under the jurisdiction of the Department of Environment Affairs, and various much smaller parks falling under a totally different authority, namely the Provincial Administration.

Let us talk about another facet of environmental control. Air pollution constitutes a tremendous environmental problem in South Africa, particularly in the Transvaal where acid rain levels have reached alarming heights as the result of numerous coal-fired power stations as well as Sasol. Hon members might be interested to know that acid rain levels have been calculated to be higher now in the Transvaal than anywhere else in the world. They have not been that high for that long and they are not in the same dangerous situation as West Germany for example, but it is not going to be very long before we get to that. The matter of air pollution falls under the jurisdiction of the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development.

Let us think about another facet of the environment, namely the serious environmental problems resulting from the use of chemical pesticides and fungicides. The use of these is controlled largely by the hon the Minister of Agriculture. Let us not forget a major example of environmental degradation, that is soil erosion. Take the major environmental problem of water pollution. This certainly falls under the jurisdiction of this hon Minister but that is when he is wearing his other hat, that of Minister of Water Affairs.

Let us consider the major environmental problems associated with the depletion of the ozone level because of the use of certain substances. This again falls under the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development.

Developments involving our coastline and other environmentally sensitive areas have been devolved down to fall under the control of the various Provincial Administrators.

So divorced is this department from matters that it should be concerning itself with, that when I phoned the department last week to ask whether they could let me have a copy of the Convention on International Trade and Endangered Species, to which South Africa is a signatory, they were unable to lay their hands on a copy because the administrations of the provinces have the responsibility for organisation of our responsibilities in terms of this convention.

There is divided responsibility on most environmental matters. I believe that this makes it absolutely impossible in South Africa to pursue a co-ordinated policy which will best serve our interests in respect of environmental conservation.

I should perhaps stress at this stage that I am not suggesting a complete centralisation of all activities and controls but I do believe that it is absolutely imperative that the department exercises a much stronger co-ordinating role than it does at the present time. In filling its role, the department must be given some teeth. As the hon member for Caledon stressed, it must be able to enforce the adoption of conservation measures in most spheres of activity, and this it is just not able to do at present.

If these conservation measures are not enforced, then we run a very grave risk of continuing environmental degradation, and it is always very easy to damage or destroy the environment but it is usually almost impossible to restore it.

Rapid population increases have accelerated the problem. Industrialisation confronts us with further problems. We are facing a very major crisis, and yet not enough is being done to alleviate this.

I accept that something is being done in that the new Environment Conservation Bill which is at present before the joint committee does go some way towards dealing with matters I am talking about today. This is a start in that it begins to give teeth to the department. However, I am afraid I do not think that this is going to be enough. We need a major rethink in terms of the structure of control and in the first instance we need to give thought to the Department of Development Planning which—I regret this—does not fall under this hon Minister.

I believe that it is nonsensical that planning should be divorced from the Department of Environment Affairs. In planning any future development a primary consideration must be the effect that it has on an environment and on our quality of life. I must urge the hon the Minister to go to his Cabinet and persuade them that it makes no sense at all to separate these two Ministries.

I was most interested to receive a report a few days ago from the Council for the Environment—I see that the hon the Minister has a copy on his desk—on the subject of integrated environmental management in South Africa, in which they give a rationale for integrating environmental concerns into the entire development process. I believe that this report should be made compulsory reading for the whole Cabinet because it gives some idea of what the future has in store for us in South Africa with “environmental management” being the key words.

We have to manage our environment and environmental considerations must be incorporated into decision-making, planning, development, management actions and processes. I would like to stress again to the hon the Minister the whole question of urgency in taking some sort of action. Development and developers do not and cannot stand still with every development that takes place. Without environmental input further degradation takes place in our surroundings and we make our world and our country a worse place to live in.

I now want to come back to something that I have raised with the hon the Minister before, namely the whole question of sea fisheries and our marine resources. The hon the Minister knows that I have submitted questions to him in the past on the question of what quantity of our marine resources we export. The hon the Minister has in his wisdom decided that it is not in the public interest to disclose how much of our fish resources we are exporting.

I have always regarded our fish resources as a resource owned by the people of South Africa. It is a major and important source of relatively cheap protein. However, this situation has unfortunately become distorted because of the enormous prices our marine products can command in overseas markets, in particular crayfish, a major export product. The result is that South Africans themselves see little crayfish at a reasonable price. In fact they see none at a reasonable price. If one wants to eat a crayfish these days one has to go to a restaurant and pay anything up to or even exceeding R30 for a not very large crayfish. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is indeed an honour to participate in this debate today. South Africa is an exceptional country. Its natural assets, rolling grass plains, golden beaches, majestic mountains, herds of game and natural habitats, to name but a few, all capture our imagination. These natural assets together with the country’s mineral riches give inspiration to the inhabitants of our country.

We are indeed blessed with a country endowed with such beauty, latent wealth and a growing spirit of sharing in the enjoyment of the natural assets entrusted to our care. These are the ideals we wish to leave as a heritage for posterity. However, will we be able to do so if we continue on our present course? The answer is: No!

It should be our earnest intention to conserve our natural assets for the enjoyment of each and every one of us and to educate our entire population in a purposeful way in the years ahead. This action will ensure that the heritage of our forebears is conserved for posterity and that the indispensable, all-encompassing environmental factors will be promoted in an orderly manner by the action of every individual.

As hon members no doubt will be aware, of all Government departments the Department of Environment Affairs is probably the department with the widest variety of functions assigned to it, namely forestry, sea fisheries and the weather bureau. With the environmental responsibility embracing all three elements, I would like to highlight a single facet of the department’s activities, namely the SA National Heritage programme. This programme was launched in 1984, and everybody had high hopes for it. With Heritage 100, we have not been disappointed, because during this year the 100th natural heritage site will be registered.

The success of the heritage programme depends on the publicity given to it. This programme progressively contributes to the realisation by private landowners that many valuable and important ecosystems and natural phenomena occur on the land, which should be protected in the interest of the country. The SA National Heritage programme should be seen as an opportunity to promote environmental awareness on a national scale. Where possible, the private sector and non-Government organisations are encouraged to participate in the programme.

Conservation is a matter of human survival. In may ways, directly and indirectly, as we lose wild habitats, the very material on which our survival depends is also lost. South Africa houses a variety of habitats and life forms. Together these constitute a heritage of inestimable value. As the human population grows and land use pressures increase the integrity of this natural treasure becomes increasingly threatened. The environmental awareness of the population of South Africa must grow in accordance with its numbers. However, awareness is not enough. People must act if they want to preserve their natural heritage. The SA National Heritage programme provides an opportunity for just this. South Africans must strike a balance between their needs to grow and to utilise land and their need to preserve their natural heritage.

I urge landowners, central, regional and local authorities and every citizen of South Africa to take note that the time to act is now. I urge everyone to take note of the SA National Heritage programme to make conservation a way of life and a personal crusade.

Finally, I want to take this opportunity of wishing the hon the Minister of Environment Affairs, the hon the Deputy Minister of Land Affairs and all members of the Joint Committee on Environmental Affairs a successful election, and we hope we meet here again next year as one happy family.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow on the hon member who just sat down, especially after he spoke so positively on the subject of the national heritage programme.

I am sure that although the hon the Minister will no doubt respond to the points that the hon member for Bryanston made, I would like the hon member to know that we in Natal particularly would not favour his plea for greater centralisation of conservation in this country at all.

He should bear that in mind from the outset. [Interjections.] Perhaps so, but in fact that was the effect of what he was saying.

In one of a number of very interesting articles in the 2 January 1989 issue of the American magazine Time on the subject “Endangered Earth, planet of the year”, reference is made to what is described as a lack of widespread awareness among the peoples of the world about the nature of the environmental problem. It is said that this is in fact a barrier in dealing with the problem effectively on political and government level.

Fortunately, as the hon the Minister said in his introductory speech, there are significant signs today of a real awakening for the first time of an awareness of environmental issues on the part of political leaders on a global scale. I refer to only two examples. I quote, also from the International Herald Tribune, a report emanating from The Hague which was published on 11 March this year, which said the following:

Secondly, on 10 March 1989 there was a report on the front page of The Times of London saying that the Tory government will be placing a heavy emphasis on the quality of life theme in the forthcoming legislative programme. This will include a number of Bills to further protect the environment.

Further good news is that also here in South Africa greater awareness of the environment is very much the order of the day. I would submit that the far-reaching Environment Conservation Bill currently before Parliament also reflects that increasing awareness on the part of the Government in our country.

I would like to pay tribute to the hon the Minister of Environment Affairs, his colleague the Deputy Minister, his Director-General and the department for their untiring efforts to promote greater awareness of the need to conserve the environment throughout the length and the breadth of our country.

I also agree with my colleague the hon member for Durban Point about the success of specific theme days, like world environment day, arbor day and more recently the fantastically successful national marine environment day, which I think was a particularly exciting development. All of these show that efforts to create greater awareness are not going unrewarded.

I would like to focus briefly on awareness in a specific sector of the public, namely what is described on page 51 of the latest annual report of the department as the “development community”. It says the following and I quote:

My submission is that awareness on the part of the development community is of critical importance. This receptiveness on their part must now be translated into practical terms. Hon members here today have referred to this concept and I believe this can be achieved by what is called the Integrated Environmental Management procedure, the IEM, a copy of which was handed to the hon Deputy Minister of Environment Affairs by the President of the Environment in Umhlanga only last week. The chairman of the joint committee also referred to and dealt very effectively with this concept. What is it? It is in fact a new concept in our country. It is a systematic approach whereby structured inclusion of environmental decisions and considerations in decision-making at all stages of the development process is effected. It will also help the responsible authority to identify actions which will be in the best interests of the community at large.

Although I understand that the draft Environment Conservation Bill makes provision for the identification of activities which will probably have a detrimental effect on the environment and of regulations regarding IEM reports, legislation should surely not be seen as the only means to promote the usage of the IEM procedure. I believe that non-Government organisations can play a valuable role in ensuring that the IEM procedure becomes the norm for every single development project. The ultimate success of the IEM procedure will depend on team work and a joint effort on the part of policy-makers, legislators, decision-makers, the planning professionals, conservation bodies, the general public and the developers. If this happens, I believe that IEM can be an incredibly powerful instrument in creating environmental awareness where a lack of awareness can really hurt us, that is at the point of development.

In conclusion, for this reason I would like to express the hope that the four Provincial Administrations will at the earliest opportunity and of their own accord also accept the concept of IEM and by setting the positive example will increase and strengthen this new wave of environmental awareness which we are witnessing worldwide and in our country today.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Umhlanga will forgive me if I do not react to his speech. I want to thank the hon the Minister sincerely for the work he has done during the past year. We had a great deal to do with one another. One cannot expect one’s table to be set beautifully every day. At times we did not fare very well, but on other occasions we did. That is what the work is like.

I should like to start by repeating what I said in this Chamber on Tuesday, 28 July 1987. I am quoting my question to the hon the Minister from Hansard (Representatives), 28 July 1987, col 1526:

The hon the Minister replied to me as follows, and I am quoting from col 1534:

That was approximately two years ago. I should very much like to ask the hon the Minister whether he or his officials have done their duty yet or whether they are at all interested in looking at the harbour at Hawston.

I want to devote the greater part of my speech to Programme 2: Conservation Forestry. I want to refer first to problems in my constituency, particularly in Grabouw. I brought a matter to the attention of the hon the Minister, but that question was not answered properly. However, I should very much like to spell out the position here. In one of the forestry regions in my constituency there is a forestry official who orders his Coloured workers to climb up the mountain and to work there when the weather is at its worst—in the cold and rain. What is more, these people frequently grow old before their time. For how many years can a forestry worker work? These people are in a weakened condition by their early fifties. They have been exposed to the elements so often that they become sickly. The forestry official—they do not want to do it—then sends them to a doctor and he must examine them. It is also arranged beforehand that these people must be declared medically unfit. What I am saying is absolutely true!

When the people submit the medical certificate, they are told they are medically unfit and they can no longer work. They then go on early pension. Unfortunately the forestry workers of my colour are all temporary employees and cannot be appointed on a permanent basis. As a result they get a reduced pension when they retire. They do not get a big pension like people with permanent appointments.

If a person of 54 has been told that his services are no longer required and he must leave, who else is going to employ him at that age? I submitted this matter to the hon the Minister, but he replied that he could not deal with those matters. His reply reads:

The hon the Minister referred me to his regional director.

I shall now carry on and quote extracts from my correspondence. On 30 January 1989 I wrote to this forestry official at Grabouw and asked him for an interview in his office so that we could settle the matter. I sent a copy of that letter to the hon the Minister. This forestry official refused to see me in his office, but sent the letter to the regional chief of the Western Cape on 31 January. On 10 February the regional chief wrote me a letter. Listen very carefully to a paragraph I specifically want to mention in the Committee. He wrote:

I consider this sentence an insult to my person. How can the regional chief of the Western Cape tell me that I am not fit to talk to a forestry official at a forestry station? That forestry official’s knowledge and the information at his disposal ostensibly cannot be communicated to a member of Parliament.

Reading between the lines I can also see that the regional chief is asking me to talk to him instead. He is therefore telling me that his knowledge and the information at his disposal are less than that of the forestry official, because I am so useless and I have so little intelligence that I would not be able to understand what a forestry official told me, but I would understand better if a regional chief spoke to me about the matter.

That is what I read here. This is my interpretation of the matter. I do not care how other people interpret it, but only how I view the matter. For that reason I did not contact this regional chief, but discussed the matter further with the hon the Minister. However, he is not prepared to have this matter investigated depart-mentally. I am asking him merely to tell me which section or subsection in the Forest Act states that a forestry official may do these things to his workers, and I will be satisfied. If the forestry official is allowed to do these things, I shall be satisfied.

I want to go further and quote from Hansard (Representatives), Friday, 25 April 1986, where I said the following:

This is of the utmost importance, and that was why I brought these matters to the attention of our hon Minister.

I want to refer to temporary workers again, and I want to place specific emphasis on the matter which I mentioned in that speech in 1986 in which I requested housing for our Coloured forestry workers. Recently, on 15 April, an article was published in Karet stating that housing subsidies were going to be allocated to public service staff; ie to temporary staff, and most of our Coloured forestry workers are temporary staff. I also raised this matter in the debate on the budget of the Cape Provincial Administration. I pointed out that these people worked while they were healthy. They sell their healthy bodies in the service of the Department of Nature and Environmental Conservation, in forestry. They cannot make provision for housing for the day when they go on pension. They want to purchase a house in the town nearest to where they are working. That is where they want to acquire a house. However, their income is so meagre that they cannot buy a stand or have a house built while they are working, but if the department can give them a subsidy, they will be able to do so. I am requesting the hon the Minister to see to it that these people get a subsidy now, while they are working, so that they can also apply to buy a stand in the town and have a house built. Then they will know that the day they retire from forestry they will have a house to go to.

There is another unpleasant matter I want to raise. There is more than one forest station in my constituency, and at one of these forest stations the forestry official does not allow the children of the people living and working on his forest station to come home over weekends or at the end of the month if they have left home and are married or are working elsewhere; they must obtain a permit before they can visit their parental home. I should very much like to hear whether it is the rule that children of those parents who are employed on a forest station must obtain a permit to visit their parents for a weekend.

I now want to give attention to the environmental conservation programme. Previous speakers did touch on this matter, which is a very serious one. I appreciate the department’s efforts to make the public conservation conscious, but it is alarming to read in our report that there is a shortage of trained staff to see to environmental management. I hope that the hon the Minister will take every possible step to eliminate the shortage of this kind of trained staff as soon as possible.

I should now like to ask for the conservation of certain wetlands. I am referring to the wetlands in the lower Kuils River area, and particularly those to the south of the N2 freeway. Here I am referring specifically to the wetlands where the Kuils River crosses the N2—from there eastwards to the SACC camp and then along the eastern border of the SACC camp to the exit of the R310. This part of our wetlands must be preserved for the future. Nowadays there is very rapid expansion of residential areas in that region—-the Blue Downs region. Khayelitsha is developing on one side and the other side will be developed soon. I wonder whether it is possible to preserve those areas as a natural wetland.

I now come to environmental pollution. We are living in a plastic revolution. Many foodstuffs and liquids are sold in plastic containers. These containers encourage littering, which causes local authorities endless headaches.

I specifically want to praise the work done by Nampak to process cardboard waste for re-use. I also thank the department for its efforts to make the public aware of the environment by starting an environmental education programme at schools. This has been done for many years now, but it still remains a problem—particularly when one considers that even highly educated people are guilty of littering. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the last section of the speech made by the hon member for Haw-ston. With reference to the first section, I merely want to give the hon member some advice. If one tries to go on early pension, and one does not manage that, one simply comes to Parliament. One must be careful, because this could be a case of backing the wrong horse.

With reference to the last section of the hon member’s speech, I should like to come back to the pollution that is caused by man. I want to do so in a very basic and simple fashion. Hon members may accuse me of being naive in my view.

Yet I want to tell hon members that we in South Africa take pride in being an educated and civilised nation; in fact, some of us go so far as to boast of a third characteristic, viz that we are learned people. I admit that all these good characteristics are of more value than the negative elements contained in these characteristics.

As the South African community makes more and more progress in this so-called civilisation of ours, everything develops to a greater extent, and within this technological progress that amazes us more and more every day, there are spheres that lag behind. I do not know whether on the one hand we are developing too rapidly, or on the other are too involved in our struggle for existence, which is a very grim struggle. Eventually one begins to think that this civilisation of ours is only a thin veneer here and there. Whatever the case may be, there is something wrong somewhere. What makes an educated, learned, civilised, well-dressed person who is driving his car open his window to throw a bag of rubbish out of it? What makes an ordinary, decent family man offload a bakkie full of rubbish alongside a main or minor road at night? What makes educated young people leave their tins and papers in the veld, forest or on the beach when they have had a picnic or party there? One is really grateful that are many of us who are civilised, because hon members will agree with me that this other behaviour is not acceptable— just as the behaviour of soccer fans is not acceptable.

I want to tell hon members, however, that we need not piously, more specifically as Whites, point a finger at other population groups. Who among those of us sitting here has never got up at the end of a rugby match and left a lot of rubbish there? Hon members are aware of the three million Blacks of the Zionist Church who congregate at Moria over the Easter weekend. When they leave the place after the weekend, there is not one piece of paper lying around. These are civilised norms. These people do not throw things around for others to pick up.

I drive along the N1 every day and it is shocking to see how motorists of all colours, rich and poor, in trucks and cars, and of both sexes, throw things out of the windows. I have seen some of them specially driving closer to the central zone to throw their rubbish away there. Incidentally, the workers who clear up the mess tell me that most of the rubbish they have to remove from there consists of beer cans. That brings one to the other aspect of drinking and driving.

Hon members know that there are teams of people throughout the country who, at great expense, have to clear up what we have messed every day. That is the rubbish that we were too lazy to remove ourselves at the end of our trip. We complain about taxation, but I wonder whether people realise what tax burden is placed on us in order to employ all these people, implements and vehicles on South Africa’s roads alone every day. Then there are the people who argue that they might as well mess, because there are people who will clean it up in any case. To me this kind of argument indicates that that last thin veneer of civilisation has been removed.

In earlier years we threw around banana peels, naartjie peels, peach pips and apple cores. That is organic material and eventually it disappears. Today’s bottles and tins and this technological wonder we call plastic is quite different, however. Apart from its unsightliness, the plastic causes farmers’ cattle to die. Perhaps, therefore, modern technology has made more rapid progress than our norms and level of civilisation have. In order to bring these norms home to people, the long course of education can and must start at school. That is essential. What are we going to do, however, to combat this iniquity in the short term? I think we should try something drastic. I want to oversimplify, but it is a fact that this messing is becoming worse and worse. We convince one another of that, talk about it and then go home quite happily, because we have had our say, but we do nothing about it.

The “Keep South Africa Clean” association does valuable work, although in my opinion on an ad hoc basis and I feel they blow a bit hot and cold. Perhaps they have a shortage of money. In addition to what these people do, I think we should start considering the appointment of honorary officials, as is the case in other spheres. These honorary officials must be men and women who have been carefully selected and who will do this for the sake of the cause without receiving any remuneration. They will be appointed to write down the car’s registration number and the time and place at which the event took place. That can then, if possible, be sent to a central point. If it is possible—and it can be possible—a letter of warning should be sent to the offender. If the media reports that such honorary officials have been appointed, we are going to resolve this problem to a great extent. Even if we do not appoint any honorary officials, the mere fact that it is said that they have been appointed will make our people more careful. One will not know whether or not the man driving behind one is an honorary official.

Mr Chairman, when the hon member for Wellington spoke about the rugby fields which are left in such a state, I thought the hon member for Outeniqua and I should invite him to a match at Outeniqua Park in George, like the one on 13 March this year when SWD gave WP a hiding, so that he can see in what a beautiful state that field is left. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I am sure you will permit me to express our thanks on this occasion to the department and everyone who was involved in dealing with the publicity concerning the little elephant’s arrival in the Knysna forest. I do want to tell the hon the Minister tongue in cheek that the events proved that we have always been correct in saying the elephants must return. This merely proves that the environment is suitable for them if procreation is taking place even at this late stage.

This afternoon I want to confine myself briefly to the control measures that apply on our coast. I want to refer in particular to the Cape Province. In the first place I want to refer to the Sea-shore Act of 1935, and then also to nature conservation legislation as such. It is a fact that the control over our beaches—I am talking about the possible damaging of our beaches—is in the news to an increasing extent. A general impression exists that sufficient control is not always exercised in preserving this legacy of ours.

In the Cape in particular, most local authorities have regulations that make control possible. In my opinion the problem involves the implementation of those control measures. In the first place there are not sufficient staff members to enforce these regulations. When one looks at the economic value those beaches have for local authorities—we in the Southern Cape use the beaches for tourism—one realises that it is in the interests of the local authority to make a financial investment in order to exercise more effective control.

In my opinion control can be applied more effectively by appointing more nature conservators, fishery control officials and nature conservation staff in general. They must be employed by the relevant local authority, however, which will ultimately benefit financially.

As far as the Cape is concerned, there are certain aspects which in my opinion should be transferred to the Administrator. In the first place he should have the authority to make regulations in respect of beaches and the sea in general. He must also be able to apply regulations to adjacent Government or municipal property. In addition he should have the discretion ultimately to appoint members of staff who can implement these regulations and deal with them in general.

Control over matters such as transgressions on the beach is handicapped because the Sea-shore Act, as I read it, does not provide for penalties or fines in the case of such transgressions. The Act should be amended in order to provide for this.

With reference to the nature conservation legislation, provision is made in general for sufficient control to protect our fauna and flora and ensure its continued existence. The principle is a well-established one. There are various kinds of fauna and flora that provide extremely valuable products, however. I am referring to certain ones that have been in the news a lot recently, such as rhino horn, ivory, ferns, cycads, which were mentioned here this afternoon, etc. The fines that can be imposed are hopelessly too low. In many cases the potential transgressors regard those fines as part of their current expenditure, because the product is so extremely valuable. I think this aspect should receive urgent attention in order to ensure effective protection of our fauna and flora. In the end control measures can be as perfect on paper as we can get them, but if there is no one to implement them, there is no point. Consequently we shall have to take a look at our staff in order to make the rules and regulations more enforceable.

When we look at the province I come from, we see that in the whole of the Cape, which covers 721 000 square kilometres, there are only 53 law enforcement officers of whom only 43 are active in the field. When I make calculations according to those figures, I find that every law enforcement officer in the Cape has to control a total surface area of 17 000 square kilometres. That is physically impossible for anyone. We shall have to pay attention to this matter if we are serious about our natural heritage.

Finally I want to express my thanks and appreciation to the Cape Provincial Administration for the hunting proclamations that were announced this year which give the owner of the land much more recognition and place the onus on him to protect the game on his property. There is no way in which one can look after a farmer. One has to make him an ally in the conservation campaign. Ultimately our conservation campaign can succeed only if we enlist the public as allies. I am grateful for the general approach followed by the hon the Minister, his department, and the provincial nature conservation sections in making the farmers allies in our entire conservation campaign.

Mr Chairman, we want to associate ourselves with the gratitude the hon member for Nigel expressed for the beautiful gesture of Mrs Tertia Burnett who, on behalf of the hon Minister and the department, wished contributors well with a spray of flowers for their buttonholes. I must say that it adds a bit of class to the debate. On behalf of all of us, thank you.

The hon the Minister spoke about the protection of our fish resources. I want to tell him that in the Eastern Cape nature itself provides such protection. The protector is the common squid. I visited Jeffreys Bay during the Easter recess and wanted to buy a cob or some other kind of fish. Does the hon the Minister want to know what the fisherman told me? He said he did not have time to waste on catching fish, he caught squid. If I could pay him R50 for a fish, he would catch me a fish. But let us say no more about that.

†Mr Chairman, I will not be present in this Chamber tomorrow and thus I want to thank the chairman of our component for allowing me to have tomorrow’s say today. I do not think the hon the Minister will mind too much.

Since I introduced a motion with regard to the continuing drought in the Eastern Province area on Monday 13 March 1989 matters have certainly worsened. The situation has become so bad that thousands of fish are dying in the estuary of the Zeekoei River at Aston Bay where the ecological balance of the river is being destroyed by the lack of fresh water.

The problem which confronts us is really twofold. Whilst heavy rain stays away, the normal flow of the river, no matter if it is just a trickle, has been disrupted by farm dams built upstream. It has been suggested that when such dams are built in future, owners must be compelled to allocate a certain percentage of the water to estuaries, as they are the all-important nurseries for fish.

The Gamtoos River Valley is being destroyed, not only ecologically, but also financially. It was reported in the Evening Post of 30 March that, after the drastic cut in the valley’s water quota, mass unemployment of farmworkers and an exodus by farmers from the Gamtoos Valley is foreseen. According to the vice-chairman of the Gamtoos River Advisory Board, thousands of workers would be without jobs if the situation deteriorated any further. All this prompted me to write to the hon the Minister on 7 April 1989 as follows:

Receipt of this letter was acknowledged on 12 April 1989.

In the meantime a committee, established by the hon the Minister to deal with drought-related problems in the Eastern Province, met shortly after I had written to the Minister. I hope that they gave heed to my call and I sincerely hope that by today we can offer a ray of hope to the suffering inhabitants of the drought-stricken areas, and at the same time assure the farmworkers that there will be no further impoverishing of the poor.

*I want to discuss the White Paper on Environmental Education of 1989 published by the Department of Environment Affairs. The Government is apparently also very concerned about environmental education. This is why it committed itself to the implementation of this White Paper.

The aim of the White Paper is to make all people in the Republic of South Africa aware of the fact that an acceptable quality of life depends on the judicious utilisation of the environment. When we see that the quality of life is being lowered as a result of a shortage, something wrong, or a problem in the environment, it is, according to one of the objectives of the White Paper, our duty and responsibility to find solutions to identified problems.

I think this is the position in which the Government, via the Department of Environment Affairs, finds itself. It simply has to find immediate solutions to the problems of the farmers and farm labourers in the Gamtoos.

†Allow me to comment briefly on the proposed construction of a nuclear power station in the vicinity of Port Elizabeth and the affect it may have on the environment. In this part of the world where there are no coalfields, it is correct that we should look at, and adopt alternative energy for our electricity supply. It is true that apart from electricity there are other decided advantages attached to the provision of such a facility for the province. Some of these are as follows. They are environmentally related ones.

Thermal pollution will be less than that caused by the Swartkops power station which is a coal-fired power station. The heating of the sea water in the vicinity of the power station may result in it becoming the habitat for fish from warmer water and warmer climates. One immediately visualises the seaboards of Port Elizabeth as a mini-Mecca for game-fish addicts. It could have a beneficial effect on the squid industry in that the area from which boats will be barred could become a reserve, and thus a breeding ground for the white gold of the province. This is in line with what the hon the Minister said about the preservation of our fish resources.

It would provide a number of employment opportunities which certainly are very necessary and welcome in an economically depressed area.

Notwithstanding this, I want us to approach this project with the greatest possible care. I know that there is enthusiasm for the project in most circles. Let us, however, advocate a policy of extreme caution. Let our motto in this be:festina lente, hasten slowly.

I want to suggest that if it has not already been done, it would be wise to adopt an intensive research programme to consider all the effects of the siting of such power station on the environment of the province in its totality. Apply the Koeberg experience which has been gained over the years, to the proposed Port Elizabeth construction. Explain what the findings are with regard to leakages, what the chances are of this occurring and its possible effect on marine life.

I must tell hon members that there are fears from boatowners that somehow their livelihoods may be threatened. It is up to the authorities, especially this department, to assure them that this is not so.

Mr Chairman, I take pleasure in following on the hon member for Bethelsdorp. I should also like to thank Mrs Burnett very much. When I look at the men, they remind me of a group of bridegrooms this afternoon. I think this has provided us with a pleasant atmosphere in this hall today. An aspect that I also find pleasing is that so many of us are speaking about matters which are very dear to our hearts. We are discussing the environment here this afternoon. This is proof to me that it is dear to all our hearts and that we are united in protecting this country of ours thoroughly.

I want to discuss our Weather Bureau this afternoon. Hon members know that very few of the people out there are aware that the bureau forms part of the Department of Environment Affairs. This is a very important department. Hon members know and, as the hon member for Bethelsdorp said a moment ago in discussing the drought and how it affects us, our lives depend upon weather conditions. While I was looking at the budget, I saw that R33,667 million had been budgeted for this financial year, specifically for this Vote. If I think of the service which our Weather Bureau furnishes, this sounds like a very reasonable amount to me.

The weather plays a very important part in our daily lives; in fact, if the weather did not provide a topic for conversation, I think there would be many people with nothing to say. If we think about these beautiful days which we have enjoyed so thoroughly in the Cape and of the delightfully refreshing rain, they really represent a feast.

It is a fact that the weather not only determines a person’s frame of mind but also his work programme and even his productivity. The important role which the weather plays in the growing provision of food in the world cannot be sufficiently emphasised either. The study of the weather is a science which may be traced back to 300 years before Christ when Aristotle was already talking about meteorologics from which our meteorology comes. If that is translated or analysed, it means the study of the earth’s atmosphere.

When the Cape was colonised, Jan van Riebeeck wrote in his diary as early as 7 April 1652—and I shall translate freely into Afrikaans:

It was only in 1860, however, by means of Government Notice 363, that South Africa became one of the first countries in the world to start a national weather service. The excellent service which this Weather Bureau furnishes is not always appreciated; in fact, it is taken so much for granted that we have weather forecasts on the box and over the radio three times on some days.

This is especially useful to travellers but also to ordinary men and women because it enables us to decide what to wear to suit the weather. For forecasts to be completely accurate, a data bank is of the utmost importance because it is essential that records be kept of daily temperatures, wind directions, cloud masses and precipitation of rain. A pattern is built up according to these to work out a specific programme for an area for the year. Weather forecasts are an interesting scientific study and it remains a miracle to the layman that they are so often completely accurate.

Flying is increasing daily as a means of transport and it is a prerequisite for pilots to be well versed in meteorology; in fact, it is an international requirement that an aircraft carrying paying passengers may not land or take off if visibility has fallen below a certain threshold. How many ships have not been wrecked on this Cape of storms already. Today the importance of daily weather forecasts and gale warnings for shipping cannot be sufficiently emphasised either.

I have always found it very interesting that the Angora farmers are warned so regularly if a cold front is approaching so that these animals can be put under cover in good time. Our agriculture depends on the weather and it also determines where certain crops may be grown successfully. I recall the scorching drought which we experienced recently. Somebody said very aptly:

The Weather Bureau expands its technology on a continuous basis and the early warning service is of the utmost importance here because it establishes whether extreme weather conditions are imminent. Warnings are issued in advance if there are prospects of heavy rain, gale-force winds and hail. We call to mind the floods which we had in Natal about which warnings were also issued. Research continues and particularly on the degree to which precipitation may be stimulated. Here the Weather Bureau plays a very important part and it will not be long before we shall be able to create rain by human intervention.

If we look back on history, the weather also played a decisive role in certain important battles. Think of Napoleon’s powerful armies, of Hitler’s unbeaten powers for instance. It was only because of that cold weather— the snow, as well as the Russians who were cleverer than they were and not because they were stronger—that they had to bend the knee. It is also said that the outcome of the Battle of Blood River would perhaps have been different if there had not been a thick mist over that laager in the early morning of 16 December 1838.

The weather satellite is very important today in indicating cloud masses and the movement of cold fronts, which facilitates forecasts. Today we are dependent upon radar, automatic weather stations and graphic computer stations. It is important for our Weather Bureau to keep up in the technological field. The Budget specifically provides R1,12 million for supporting research and, because the importance of well-trained and competent manpower is realised, R666 000 is also provided in the Budget as a contribution to the training of meteorologists and technicians at the best university in the country, that is the University of Pretoria.

I think I am speaking on behalf of all of us present in saying thank you to all the men and women of the Weather Bureau who work so hard behind the scenes to enable us to plan every day better and also make our lives safer.

Mr Chairman, I am convinced that the hon member for Edenvale will forgive me if I do not react to her speech.

I should like to extend my hearty congratulations to the new chairman of the standing committee, the hon member for Caledon. I am convinced that coming as he does from the Overberg, he will make a very important contribution.

†It is a pity that I do not see the hon the Deputy Minister of Environment Affairs here. I want to tell the hon members that I am very proud of the hon the Deputy Minister for showing deep concern for his fellow men who use the route to Natal by having called upon them to boycott the Mooi River toll plaza in stead of paying those very high fees. I am proud that he is able to take up the cudgels on our behalf. However, I get the impression that he is not able to exert enough influence on his colleagues to do away with those extremely high fees. I want to tell the hon the Deputy Minister that many of us from the northern part of the country, particularly from the Transvaal, are proud of the stand he has taken for us. I hope he will take the same stand in looking after our environment.

The environment has to be looked after because some elements in the House of Delegates will need enough land and enough environment for the development of the carrot culture which is exclusive to some elements within that House.

*In recent times we have been experiencing problems with regard to squatting around our major cities due to the abolition of the control over the influx of Blacks to the cities. We are blessed with a timber heritage of approximately 1 000 species, but here, too, we are having problems with regard to the relationship between the population growth and our natural forests and forest plantations. In this regard it is useful to consider the disappointing experiences in African countries, with the aim of taking timeous action and of preventing the disasters with which these countries are inevitably going to be faced.

The Republic has concluded quite a number of agreements with the Black states of Southern Africa, particularly in the economic, social and security fields, as well as in other fields. It is generally accepted that the population of the national states will grow more rapidly than the incomes of families will increase. Because their incomes will not rise to desirable levels, the cash expenditure on firewood and fuel will become an increasingly important factor, as is the case elsewhere in Africa, and as is also going to be the case now around our cities.

For example, there are certain cities in West Africa in which the price of firewood has doubled within the space of five years. The deforestation that has taken place around settlements has meanwhile increased from a radius of 50 kilometres to a radius of approximately 100 kilometres, accompanied by all the catastrophic consequences of desert formation, water erosion, etc. This, in turn, has given rise to increases in firewood prices, and many people spend from 25% to 40% of their cash income on it. This is a great problem in Africa. We, with our Third World situation, will also have to contend with this problem.

We are aware of the famine of catastrophic proportions that is threatening Africa, but perhaps the firewood crisis is in reality an even more serious matter. The West, which is so charitable, may perhaps make grain available free of charge, which may then be imported to keep people alive, but firewood cannot be imported. It must be provided locally and if the food is not purchased, people will starve to death.

This is the fundamental issue and even in those places where it has not yet assumed serious proportions, such as in our neighbouring state of Botswana, for example, studies have been undertaken in which it has been found that in a household of eight people, one person devotes at least half of his working time to collecting firewood. In Tanzania the World Bank found that in a household of five, one person was occupied virtually full time in foraging for and collecting firewood.

Regardless of whether similar studies have been done in our national states, I can confidently state on the basis of the experience we gained from visits to two such states that we are basically going to be faced with the same problems. It naturally follows that people seize everything that can burn. Living trees are also felled, and since in many instances this takes place in catchment areas for our rivers, it is very clear that rapid destruction can take place, as it has elsewhere in Africa where the large tropical forests are disappearing from the face of the earth at an incredible rate. It is estimated that by the end of this century—only 11 years from now—large portions could be totally destroyed.

We do not have forests of that size, but our ecology is extremely vulnerable by way of deforestation. It is both desirable and advisable to take certain steps to satisfy the demand for firewood. We do at least still have a bit of a breathing space. The Bureau of Market Research has found that the cash budget of rural Blacks in respect of firewood, paraffin, etc, amounts to between 30 and 6%, but experience elsewhere in Africa shows that this could easily increase if something drastic is not done, which is not going to be easy in practical terms.

A tree planting campaign could well be launched, but those areas in which there is a shortage of firewood are also areas in which there are surplus animals, such as emaciated cattle, sheep and goats, and the experience has been that local populations do not identify strongly with such timber plantations. The animals are simply herded into them to graze on the foliage and the people are not concerned about whether they are going to be left without firewood. We are therefore faced with a comprehensive educational and nature conservation awareness task.

Recently the Agriculture and Forestry Division in Zululand found that of the almost 200 forestry reserves that had been proclaimed there after the Second World War, not a single one could any longer be traced. All combustible material is being used up. Cow dung is also being used up, and then the people will have nothing. Despite the shortage, it was also found in KwaZulu that no initiative had been taken, either by a private source or by a tribe, to establish plantations for firewood. Because there is no large commercial profit involved in forestry plantations, the private sector is not well disposed towards them, and the economic incentive is therefore lacking.

In this regard the hon the Minister should consider the possibility of introducing certain incentives, and together with his colleague the hon the Minister of Finance, he should look into the possibility of certain benefits with regard to taxation. An effort will have to be made to obtain the co-operation of national states. A study will have to be made with the aim of identifying the most suitable timber species and a massive effort will have to be made to avoid the catastrophes with which Africa will inevitably be faced.

Turning now from trees and dendrological philosophy, I should like to refer to a topical matter insofar as nature and environmental conservation are concerned. Parks, nature reserves and other conservation areas play a smaller role among the general public whom is generally supposed. If the number of visitors to such places is multiplied by the number of hours which they spend there per year and this figure is then divided by the total number of White, Coloured, Indian and Black inhabitants of the country, for example, and the hours per year which they spend in the Republic, and that figure is then multiplied by the average lifetime of a person, then the result amounts to approximately half an hour of reserve experience in such a person’s lifetime. If the figures are manipulated a little, one will arrive at a figure of approximately an hour. Environmental conservation areas must therefore not be singled out as exceptional areas. Wherever people live and work in our cities, the environment and a piece of nature must be conserved for them to enjoy. This is particularly the case with regard to the large concentrations of people in our metropolitan areas, many of whom have never even been to any nature conservation area.

†The problem is that as far as the ordinary citizen is concerned, it is immaterial to him whether they have a wilderness experience of 30 minutes, 40 minutes or an hour in their lifetime. His environment is where he spends 365 days per year. That is where he resides and works. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Bethelsdorp is not in the Chamber at the moment, but I want to thank him for his support in regard to his arguments concerning the water supply to the South Eastern Cape. It is in fact a very topical matter, and I intend to say more about it tomorrow, during the debate on water supply.

I should like to come back to a local matter, although not on land; I want to go down to the sea for a while. I am referring to the squid industry or the chokka industry, as it is commonly known, or calamari, as it is also known in the restaurants as a choice dish. During the past year this industry has grown phenomenally in my constituency. Apart from the fact that it has provided considerable foreign exchange, as well as welcome job opportunities to many, it has also brought in its wake problems which we shall definitely have to look into at this stage. It has resulted in fishermen from all over descending in droves on our beach resorts. Believe me, things are going so well financially that even members of the fairer sex cannot resist the temptation to take on the ocean. Hon members must remember that it is an exacting task. It is not an easy job; it is considered to be a difficult job.

Alas, in spite of the financial advantages, it has also brought social problems in its wake, which we are not going to argue about today; they do not fall within the ambit of this hon Minister. It brought about that control measures had to be introduced under the direction of the hon the Minister’s predecessor, which have of course been successfully continued under the direction of this hon Minister. The fact of the matter is that prior to 1985 the industry was completely unorganised and steps had to be taken to regulate the industry and to protect the resource against overutilisation. For that reason, as hon members know, a start was made with performance evaluation and everyone had to submit returns of their catches. All those who from 1 September 1985 to 31 August 1986 caught more than 1 000 kg then qualified for a licence and such a licence was subsequently issued to them. This caused great dissatisfaction, however, particularly among local ski-boat owners, who felt that this step discriminated against them. After representations it was agreed to reduce the performance qualification during the next season to 500 kg for a season, in order to make provision for licences for more people. This separated the occasional catcher from the commercial catcher—in other words those who did it for a living.

I wanted to concede to the Minister that with this arrangement he succeeded in stabilising the industry. Furthermore a prohibition was placed on the transfer of licences for a period of three years. According to what I have been able to ascertain this period expires in August or September of this year, after which consideration will have to be given to the reintroduction or the lifting of this prohibition.

This brings me to my actual request. I want to suggest that consideration be given to lifting the prohibition on transfer immediately, with condonation of the transfers that have already occurred. This may sound strange to the hon the Minister, but I have reasons for suggesting this. The reason is that the scope of this commercial activity is considerable. Although it is unlawful, it is nevertheless taking place. The hon the Minister can believe me when I say this, because I have my ear close to the ground and I know what is happening.

The other day I was informed that the negotiable price of a licence was approximately between R15 000 and R25 000 per crew member. This means that a sixth-man boat costs in the vicinity of R150 000. The other day even a decked vessel or two, if my information is correct, was advertised here in the Cape newspapers. One was advertised for R750 000 and another for R800 000, although there is a prohibition on the transfer of licences. This gives one an idea of what a great demand there is for such licences. Whether there is a prohibition or not, the transfers are taking place, and the reason for it is that this is an extremely lucrative industry. That is why it is inevitable that people will carry on a trade with their rights.

Furthermore I should like to see that new entrants to the industry should be able to receive licences on a limited scale. I do not think it is advisable to make any industry a completely closed industry. To protect the resource the fixing of a total quota is definitely necessary. I think the scientists are now able to determine such a quota. Such a quota can then be distributed among licence-holders according to performance.

A further problem being experienced is the existence of a competency factor in the catching of squid. What I mean by that is that one skipper and his crew perform better than the next. Boatowners whose performance is so exceptional find it difficult to progress to a bigger boat with a larger crew, or from one boat to two. I think this is a matter which should be looked into very urgently. This will partly prevent monopolies from developing in the industry, and it can also serve to counteract the enormous trade in licences that is taking place.

I think the hon the Minister has to a large extent succeeded in separating the sheep from the goats. During the past three years the number of licences was as follows: 237 in 1987 and 200 in 1988. In 1989 the number remained constant at 200. For that reason it seems to me as if a measure of stability has been reached at that level.

During the past few years the catches have been stable at approximately—I am rounding off the figures—3 000 tons per year, but in 1988 the conditions were exceptionally favourable. This year money is flowing like water in Jeffreys Bay. The total catches came to 4 656 tons. Owing to that great interest I am honestly of the opinion that measures have up to now served their purpose very well indeed. Therefore my request to the hon the Minister is to examine the matter urgently with a view to the establishment of quotas in the first place, an opportunity for expansion in the second place, and the possibility of selected new entrants to the industry in the third.

Mr Chairman, in the short time at my disposal I want to concentrate on the fishing industry by referring to Programme 5 in the 1987-88 annual report of the Department of Environment Affairs. In the introductory paragraphs to this report it is stated inter alia that the highest catch since the pelagic fishing industry began was recorded this year.

It is truly gratifying to see that this industry is experiencing a growth period, particularly if one thinks of the very negative growth patterns that are being experienced in other areas and which we have recently heard so much about in this Chamber and in the House of Assembly.

The report states further that demersal long-line fishery catches received the necessary boost and are well-established, and that snoek catches also increased. It is stated that they have been the highest in many years.

The total catches of pelagic fish for the period covered by this report were 667 866 tons— approximately 72% higher than those of the previous year. This is truly a fine figure. It is really good news in uncertain times such as these we are experiencing at present in the Republic of South Africa.

A thorough analysis of the report of the department made it clear to me that the hon the Minister and his department and officials have done their homework. I praise them for this and for their hard work. The hon the Minister and his department deserve this. [Interjections.]

However, please give me an opportunity to state the other side of the matter as well. After all, our Coloured population are the people who keep the fishing industry going. We run the fishing industry as it were. The Coloured person is not merely an integral part of the fishing industry, he is the fishing industry. In fact, when Jan van Riebeeck landed on these shores more than 300 years ago he met Harry the strandloper here. [Interjections.] He encountered these people on these very beaches, and I think Harry was the ancestor of many of us in this Chamber. [Interjections.]

History proves to us that the Coloured person, from the earliest times, was here already and was dependent for his survival on the fishing industry. Many years later, when the State for the first time looked at the fishing industry as an economic possibility, it was the beginning of the end for the Coloured fisherman. One need only look at the allocation of the fishing resources, as well as the concessions, quotas and contracts to realise to what extent the apartheid bogey has taken its toll in this area as well. It is heartrending. I have figures at my disposal to support the contention that colour has played a part in the allocation of fishing quotas. [Interjections.]

Apart from the major companies there are various White firms and individuals who possess major quotas. Quotas have even been allocated to the Portuguese and other foreigners, including the Taiwanese, the Japanese and the Israelis, but when it comes to the Coloured South African-born citizen of the RSA, it is impossible: Then there are always problems. He must be and must remain there to catch the fish, but when the Coloured fishermen from Port Nolloth right down to Saldanha begs for a quota it is, if he is fortunate, given to his White guardian, the municipality, so that he will always remain subordinate to the privileged group of large White companies.

We have been accused of wanting to use our skin colour to accomplish things in this Parliament. We have been requested by our White colleagues not always to drag in the colour issue everywhere, and if I can help it I do not want to do so either. But is it not in fact skin colour which gives these Whites, Portuguese, Taiwanese, Japanese and Israelis an advantage over me as a citizen of this country? I am asking the hon the Minister to correct me if I am wrong. Historically it is a fact that the Coloureds, as a result of their skin colour, have been deprived of their rights by means of legislation. Now we can probably not blame him if he uses his skin colour to get those rights back.

I should like to know when discrimination is going to be removed from the fishing industry. When are our people going to be accorded their rightful place in the fishing industry? Do we have Coloured fisheries inspectors in our country? Do we have Coloured people in management positions in the Department of Sea Fisheries? How many Coloured people are quota holders in the fishing industry? Cannot prosperity be apportioned in such a way that the Coloured fisherman is also benefited in some way, for example by pinching off a small percentage of the quotas of the large companies and allocating them to prospective Coloured companies? I want to ask the hon the Minister to think along these lines, for if the Coloured fisherman’s company of Port Nolloth asks me to tell them why Fernpar and Mreson received a quota, while we did not, what must I tell them? Help our people who are prepared to help themselves. Help the people where the need exists. I know for example of a Coloured company which consists of fishermen and which has for the past four years tried to obtain a fishing quota, without any success. The necessary attention must be given to these matters in order to regain the confidence of our people. We should like to see good relations among all the population groups in this country.

Mr Chairman, I do not really want to react to the speech made by the hon member for Steinkopf, who has just spoken before me, but it is a great pity that the hon member wanted to drag politics into this Vote here and there. I do not take it amiss of him if he is pleading for his people. I think it is his task, but I think one should tread very carefully and try not to drag politics into this matter, using the pretext of apartheid. I think there are probably other reasons for it if his people do not perhaps receive quotas. The hon the Minister will deal with it. I am convinced that the hon member will then be more satisfied.

Mr Chairman, you will allow me to avail myself of this opportunity to associate myself with the hon member for Caledon and the other hon members who expressed their thanks and appreciation for the sprays that were presented to us. I just want to tell Mrs Burnett that with this wonderful gesture on her part and the part of the department there is a great danger that in future the Whips will have great difficulty because of the large number of speakers who want to participate in the discussion of this Vote. We just want to say thank you very much and we hope that in future the Whips are not going to have too many problems as a result of this wonderful gesture. For various reasons therefore it is an exceptional privilege for me to participate in the discussion of this Vote.

Firstly I want to avail myself of this opportunity to convey a special word of thanks to the director-general of the department for his visit to the Aliwal constituency during the past year. We want to thank him and Mrs Visagie for what they have done in the constituency and we also want to thank them for the wonderful influence they exerted there, particularly among the young farmers in the Ugie-Maclear region who want to go into forestry. It was an exceptional pleasure to welcome the director-general and his good wife to our constituency.

Furthermore, I also want to avail myself of this opportunity to thank the hon the Minister and his department for the way in which they are administering and controlling this department. Nor can it be otherwise, with an hon the Minister who lives so close to nature, who is a child of nature and a nature lover, that he—with the help of scientific advice which he receives and his natural feeling for the needs of the environment and nature—together with his department are taking the right decisions to introduce the right legislation in order to protect and preserve the intrinsic character and charm of the landscapes and seascapes for every involved citizen in this country. For that we want to say thank you very much and pay tribute to the entire department.

This brings me to a matter which I should like to raise here in connection with a conservation need. A species of bird, the wattled crane, or grus carunsulata, a beautiful bird, is in the process of disappearing from South Africa. This is a very large crane with characteristic wattles hanging down from its cheeks on both sides. Hence the name wattled crane. This bird occurs in vlei and marshy areas with grass veld in the vicinity. They make their nests in the vlei and earlier were widely distributed over the eastern and northern Drakensberg. Today, however, there are fewer than 300 of these beautiful and majestic birds left in South Africa. These birds are at present still to be found in a limited number of wetlands in the Northern Natal and in the Eastern Transvaal and in the abovementioned Drakensberg areas.

In earlier years the wattled crane was found in large numbers in the Drakensberg area of the North Eastern Cape, but it disappeared from this area owing to the destruction of this bird’s natural habitat. The wetlands were drained and ploughed and in addition the wetland areas were also subjected to injudicious burning. I want to make a polite but very urgent request for the Department of Environment Affairs, in cooperation with the CPA’s Department of Nature Conservation, to institute an intensive investigation in the Drakensberg area in order to reestablish this scarce bird species, which is at present a threatened bird species in the Republic of South Africa, in this part of the Cape Province.

In addition consideration should be given to the other conservation needs of the beautiful but not very well-known area of the Southern Drakensberg region, with its Alpine mountain veld … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, this debate has once again been one of great interest and I am very pleased indeed to participate in it. We have of course heard a wide range of topics being debated, and yet there are a number of issues which have not yet been touched on. I am, for example, thinking of the drowning of vleis and in particular the Blood River Vlei as a case in point. I am thinking of the destruction of the cliff line at Alverston and the lack of proper conservation of the Seekoeivlei at Memel in the Orange Free State.

Then, of course, there is the very real desire on the part of all members participating in this debate to keep this debate on a very even keel without rocking the political boat too much. Even the hon member for Durban Point was able to do this fairly successfully.

One of the issues which needs to be discussed is the role the Department of Environment Affairs should play in planning. The hon member for Bryanston has touched on this and I want to endorse his views entirely when he says that planning should not be divorced from care of the environment.

I want to refer in particular to the need for town planning and environmental concern to go hand in hand. It is essential that liaison committees between these two groups, the town planners and the environmentalists, are established at all levels to co-ordinate all projects. One only needs to see the rapid development of both formal and informal settlements around the Greater Durban area, for example, to realise that the environment in that region is being seriously affected by developments and rapid growth.

In all areas, and not only in town planning, the Department of Environment Affairs has an enormous role to play in planning and should be consulted at every level. As the hon member for Bryanston has said, we certainly will watch the new Environment Conservation Bill, which is presently before the joint committee, with great interest for it does indeed reflect that positive thought has been given to this very important issue.

The hon member for Bryanston also touched on the issue of the control of pesticides very briefly. I know that the control of pesticides rests in the hands of the hon the Minister for Agriculture in terms of the Pesticides Act, and I have no doubt that there are very good historical reasons for this. In view of the very wide range of pesticides used in all areas of life today, however, I believe the time has come for the control of pesticides to be transferred to the Department of Environmental Affairs. Hon members know that pesticides are now used and unfortunately abused in such a wide range of activities of daily life that it is, what I call, obsolete thinking to leave the control of pesticides in the hands of the hon the Minister of Agriculture. I urge this hon Minister to lobby all the support he can obtain to have the control of pesticides transferred to him, for I believe it is his department which will be capable of effecting proper control over all pesticides used in all areas of our daily life.

Another point of growing concern to environmental conservationists in Natal and elsewhere is the issue of dune mining. I want to refer to the dune mining taking place in the Richards Bay area in particular. While the dunes in that area may very well be rich in minerals, I want to stress that I consider it a tragedy that this mining process was authorised in the first place.

Much has been said about the fact that the dunes are restored to their former state once they have been mined, but I submit that this is in fact an impossible situation. I do accept that a really good construction job of the dunes is being done, but it is impossible to restore these dunes, together with their indigenous vegetation, completely.

Only time will really show the inestimable damage that has been caused to this most beautiful coastline running north of Richard’s Bay. I want to stress that there is very real concern among a large number of conservationists that there is not adequate supervision of this dune mining. In fact I believe that the monitoring of this dune mining should again fall directly under the control of the Department of Environment Affairs.

I want to suggest to the hon the Minister that he calls an urgent meeting of all interested parties to discuss this issue. To such a meeting should be called as diverse a group of people as the KwaZulu Bureau of Natural Resources, the Natal Parks Board, the Natal Town and Regional Planning Commission, the Department of Mineral and Energy Affairs, Richard’s Bay Minerals, BP, the Wildlife Society of South Africa, the Department of Forestry, the Department of Agriculture and a host of other organizations as well. This would be in the interests of the conservation of this beautiful coastline and I urge the hon the Minister to do all he can to protect and preserve whatever he can of it. A careful and constant investigation of what is happening in this area is urgently needed.

The hon member for Durban Point in the only part of his speech of any real significance referred to the importance of environmental education. I asked the hon the Minister in a question in the House the other day how much money was allocated to environmental education. His reply was approximately R900 000. I have no doubt that this hon Minister would dearly love to spend far more money on environmental education. His reply to my question certainly seemed to imply this. Much has been said here today by a number of hon members about the need to conserve our environment but I believe that we can only do so by educating the people of this country to participate in conservation and participate fully in a conservation program. R900 000 is nothing. It can go nowhere in covering the complete spectrum of the South African population and it is the complete spectrum of this population that needs to be educated in the importance of conservation.

I cannot blame this hon Minister for allocating such a small sum of money. I believe he operates under severe restraints with regard to both the number of staff in his department and the finances allocated to him. Nevertheless I would urge him to find more money and to embark on a far greater environmental program than has been possible in the past. It is only by educating the youth of all our people through a coordinated program endorsed and administered by the Department of Environment Affairs that we will be able to achieve a major breakthrough in environmental awareness in South Africa.

So many issues raised in this debate could be solved if all people were really aware of the importance of conservation, and that can only be achieved by such a major education programme.

Mr Chairman, in my speech I shall touch on certain matters which will place the statements made by the hon member for Nigel in their correct perspective.

If only the deceased former Minister had listened to me and other colleagues, and not to others who selfishly wanted everything done for their own gain, matters would have been different.

I agree with the hon member for Nigel that the quota should not all end up in the hands of major companies. There must be a better distribution, particularly among our Coloured fishermen. I want to assure the hon member that the Whites and the Coloureds are not happy about the way the West Coast Pelagic Association does things. That is why I want to invite the hon member to a fish braai together with those people one day.

Firstly, I want to thank the hon the Minister, the department as well as the Natal Parks Board for a very informative tour which they arranged for the joint committee last year.

The Natal Parks Board is really doing very good work, and I therefore consider it my duty to thank them for it. However, I want to focus my attention on another aspect today, namely the fishing industry. Some time ago the hon the Minister issued an instruction for bonuses to be paid out to rock lobster fishermen. It took a long time to sort out who should be eligible for this. It is something to which any West Coast fisherman looked forward and I must admit today that I am just as disappointed as these people are that many of them have still not received a cent. It seems to me as if neither the industry nor the department has any control over this matter. They shrug their shoulders and simply let matters take their course.

Large amounts of money are lying in the bank accounts of affluent quota holders or companies and earning interest, while the families of the persons to whom these few rands on owing are suffering hardships. I want to ask the hon the Minister what is happening to this interest and why payment is taking such a long time. The money had to be paid out before Christmas. Easter has come and gone and still my people have not received anything. I want to make a serious appeal to the hon the Minister please to intervene. This hope is now being turned into despair, hatred and frustration which will lead to people no longer being able to appreciate problems or having any confidence in the facts. I noticed in the list of names of rock lobster fishermen who have to receive bonuses that quota holders and shareholders in a company must also receive bonuses. I think this is completely unfair to the ordinary rock lobster fishermen.

I now want to discuss the pelagic fishing industry. This is a matter which should receive urgent attention. I want to put it in this way: A big swindle is in progress here. The management of the West Coast Pelagic Fishermen’s Association is not acting democratically in regard to the members they represent. Actually it is not the whole management but only a certain part. The rest are not even aware of some meetings that are taking place. How can they then be expected to know what decisions were taken?

Hon members can take note but I have discussed this association every single year. The initial quota was acquired to the co-operation of approximately 750 fishermen. To their disappoint a few benefited and no notice was taken of the rest. On behalf of 99% of these fishermen I want to express thanks to the hon the Minister. They asked me to do so and I am pleased the hon the Minister converted the quota into a bonus which must be paid out equally according to a formula. These were gratifying words to the fishermen of this association—but only for a short while.

The payments should have commenced last year, before Christmas. The industry should have made these payments to the members. They then, at the request of some members of the management, made the payments to the association. To this day initial payments and final payments have still not been made. The other quota holders, however, have already paid out their initial and final payments. I want to thank Mr Malherbe and Mr Jacobs, in particular, in this connection. They tried to help me, but the association has turned its back on them as well.

It can in fact be said that members of the association should take a stand on this matter. I can assure hon members, however, that if that should happen they would lose their jobs, and according to my information they are being intimated in any case. The skippers are in control, and there are no laws that can protect these people. Consequently they must willy-nilly agree with dictatorial decisions; something which affects every family and household detrimentally.

I want to give hon members an example or two of what I mean. In the first place this association wanted to please the members by establishing a sick fund for the members. The members had to contribute R1 000 for the first year. For the second year they had to contribute R1 200. This was done.

I have here an example of what really happened. It is not a sick fund, or otherwise the fund would have operated in accordance with the Medical Schemes Amendment Act, No 59 of 1984. On this form which I am presenting it is stated: “Bystandfonds vir gesondheidsdienste”. According to this form neither the association nor the State contributes any money. If I begin to make calculations according to these examples, the investment of the fishermen does not earn any interest. It seems to me as though these people are regarded as being irresponsible, and that they are not able to pay their own or their families’ medical expenses. In other words, they do not know how to work with money. I consider this to be an insult because in the past they sorted out these matters themselves. There is a great deal to be inferred from this. It gives one reason to believe and suspect that this same procedure is adopted in regard to other matters.

Many members fell ill and visited a doctor. They paid the doctor, and afterwards they tried to recover the money from the so-called relief fund, but to their disappointment this was impossible.

According to my information and the copies I have been able to obtain, this association has never submitted audited statements to its members. This makes one wonder why this association asked two firms to draw up their documents. It was a statement of income and expenditure, and an annual financial statement. These two professional firms did in fact emphasise in their report, and I quote:

I want to ask the entire fishing industry to ponder this for a moment. The fish quotas are caught from boats. I am going to become tired of defending and making excuses for companies in South Africa. There are other organisations involved in this, and eventually they will arrive at the people in the fishing industry as well.

There is another matter I want to touch on, namely the pension fund. They already have an existing pension fund and then the establish an extra supplementary pension fund. Why could they not add it to the existing pension fund? If the owners or shareholders of companies and boats do not wake up, they are going to be very sorry. I also want to tell the members of this association that it is time they stood up and stated their case. Something which is very important—I want the Press to take cognisance of this and help me with what I am now going to say—is that this bonus that they are working for now should not be allowed to be taken up and administered by the association without the consent of the members. I therefore want to recommend to them that they claim their bonuses.

Make one last effort to follow the right channels of negotiation and in this way obtain those bonuses for which those people worked very hard. If that is not successful, draw up a petition in the proper way. Ask the Attorney-General to institute an investigation. As many of the members think and allege, I am certain that the air can be cleared of all possible corruption.

It is my honest and sincere desire to see a healthy, responsible and honest industry functioning here, because this industry provides this beautiful country of ours with billions of rands. It is also an industry which is helping our country on political level by means of communication and trade. My plea and my prayer is therefore that the members and the management will eliminate any lack of communication, or whatever it may be as soon as possible.

I want to conclude by thanking the hon the Minister and his department for their good co-operation over the years, and I wish them everything of the best for the coming year.

Mr Chairman, it is a privilege for me to participate here under your chairmanship. For the information of this committee I can say—simply for interest’s sake—that it is an exceptional privilege to participate today under the chairmanship of the hon member, who is now chairman and with whom I entered politics together and who was my benchmate in the years we were together in the provincial council.

I thank all the hon members who participated in the debate. I think it was a very instructive debate for me as well. I enjoyed listening to it very much and I do not think there was a single contribution made today that was not worthwhile—each member in his own way and in his own field. I think all the contributions were worthwhile listening to.

I thank hon members for their thanks to my secretary, Mrs Burnett, for the buttonholes. She cannot do it herself. I therefore thank hon members on her behalf for their thanks, but let us also add that it was through the good offices of Kirstenbosch that we were able to receive the lapel sprays. I should like to add my thanks to that of hon members to Kirstenbosch for the flowers. I thank hon members for all their good wishes to me and the department for what they consider to be good service. It is highly appreciated.

I thank hon members for their kind remarks about reports drawn up by the department and tabled. I want to assure hon members that their observations on those publications are also very useful to us. I have—let me see now—22 minutes to reply to 20 speeches. That is to say, if I spend a minute on every speech I shall just make it. However, it is impossible for me to do justice to these speeches in a minute’s time. That is why I am begging their pardon in advance if I do not deal with all the hon members, and do not get to all the matters raised in the debate. I want to give hon members the assurance, though, that we do take notice of what they said and if a reply is necessary—not all the speeches need replies— we shall give them one in writing.

The hon member for Caledon apologised for not being able to be present here when I reply. His apologies are accepted. He has to attend a meeting of some conservation organisation or other. He made a very interesting speech and covered a very wide field. I am certain that this hon member—we have already congratulated him on his acceptance of the chairmanship of the committee—will make a very good contribution. He referred in particular to the Integrated Environment Management System in South Africa.

†I think other hon members also referred to this system. Let me deal with it immediately. I think this is a document which will be used as a guideline in future. I have accepted the report from the Council for the Environment.

*We in the Council for the Environment are very grateful for a very good piece of work that has been laid upon the Table.

†I would like to refer briefly to the hon member for Retreat. He referred to the legislation that is still outstanding and the problem of finding a chairman for the Quota Board.

He said he was not sure whether enough was being done to find a proper candidate. I can assure the hon member that I have really gone to great lengths finding the proper person for this post. However, it is not easy. It is very difficult to find retired judges, magistrates and people who have been in the Department of Justice or wherever, with leisure at their disposal.

*All of them are still being used. It seems to me it is with great difficulty that one gets hold of them. I am convinced that the legislation will have to be re-examined, and I hope we shall receive support from the hon members in effecting this minor amendment.

†The hon member also referred to the question of the quarry at Betty’s Bay. The hon member for Caledon, in whose constituency this quarry falls, wrote me a note. He said he spoke to the mayor, and I quote:

*I assume that a study was made—

The quarrying of gravel has been stopped.

It has been stopped because it began to rain.

In any event it is not strictly speaking a matter which rests with my department; it should be done at the Provincial Administration by means of the divisional council.

†The hon member for Retreat referred to toxic waste. I must say something about it as other hon members also mentioned it. I think I made myself very clear on this issue. It is the official policy of the Government not to receive any waste—not only toxic waste—for dumping in South Africa. We are concerned about the possibility of dumping in the neighbouring states, because that may have an effect on us.

We have at present no intention of receiving toxic waste to be dumped here. What I did say previously, and which I want to repeat, is that if in future we find that in order to process our own waste we need additional waste—that is a strange phenomenon, but it works that way—that can be considered, but not until a detailed study has been made.

*Lying on my desk at the moment is a report from the Council for the Environment on an application we received. A special committee of the Council for the Environment now deals with any application dealing with toxic waste. This committee, which has experts serving on it, is going to be expanded. I am holding discussions with my two Health colleagues and my Mining colleague, and we have agreed that this committee will be expanded to include a person from the CSIR—if there is no such person at the moment—a person from the Department of Health and a person from the Department of Commerce and Industry, who will serve together with the normal establishment of this expert committee. This committee will investigate any application in depth.

They will report to the full Council for the Environment and the council will report to me, which is my function, and we shall then consider the matter at Cabinet level, among Ministers. I want to give hon members the assurance that we will examine any dumping of waste in Southern Africa—not only in South Africa.

We have bilateral agreements with most of our neighbouring states as far as the environment is concerned. Through Secosaf we have liaison with the independent states and we meet on a regular basis to deal with all matters pertaining to agriculture as well as the environment. By means of other liaison organisations we will not only look after our own territory, but we shall also consult with our neighbours, advise them and co-operate with them when it comes to toxic waste.

The hon member for Nelspruit reacted in part to what the hon member for Retreat said. He also referred to cycads. The fact that we are able to buy cycads at almost any nursery today does not detract from the fact that they must be a specially protected species.

The hon member referred to the Kruger National Park as being the flagship. I want to tell hon members that if one travels around the world for a while and then goes back to the Kruger National Park one really thinks that it is not only the national flagship of game parks, but perhaps, too, the international flagship of game parks. That is my impression.

†The hon member for North Coast gave a very interesting overview of very pertinent matters which occurred over the years and which have contributed to our present concern for the environment. The work of the Natal Parks Board towards rhino conservation is acknowledged internationally. I thank the member for his contribution.

*The hon member for Nigel was concerned because there had been no real growth in the spending of the department. He also referred specially to atmospheric pollution. Of course it is not pleasant for a Minister if his budget is cut, but this is an inconvenience which all Ministers have to endure at the moment, because we are constantly under pressure—every Minister, including the hon the Minister of Finance, every Government department and the State in general is under pressure in regard to so-called overspending. The hon member will concede that in other debates the opposition has criticised us for overspending.

We would find additional funds very useful, but let me at least point out to the hon member that whatever we spend now must also be taken in conjunction with what the Provincial Administrations—there are four of them—are spending. Their budgets also include a considerable amount for the environment. Our sister departments too, the Department of Health and the Department of Agriculture are spending money on environmental conservation, anti-pollution measures and so on.

The hon member also discussed the anchovy quota. Hon members must please allow me to say something about this because it is a matter which affects other hon members as well. According to the hon member an anchovy quota was allotted to the fishermen’s association of the West Coast and was withdrawn and replaced with the bonus system without any reasons being furnished.

Of course the hon member is not correct that this was done without furnishing any reasons, because I furnished reasons in this House from that bench as to why I had done so. Hon members sitting here will recall that I advanced quite specific reasons as to why I could not agree to the whole question of quotas to groups of people who were relatively isolated from one another. There was no pressure on me to effect this change, except the pressure of my own conscience telling me that this system was not going to work.

A quota which is issued to a community causes problems. It has to be issued to juristic persons, whether companies, individuals, partnerships or whatever. If a quota is issued to an isolated group of persons, one firstly has the problem of who should share in it. On that point I can address the hon members for the next hour if they want me to. It is not administerable and we have already had many problems. One of these similar situations ended up in a Supreme Court case, which has been dragging on for almost a year, to determine who should share. [Interjections.]

The problem revolves around the administration of the system, which cannot work. That is why I replaced it with the bonus system. I replaced the rock lobster quota, as well as the pelagic fish quota with a bonus system, so that a person is remunerated according to achievement. It is normal commercial practice for people to be remunerated by means of bonuses. In other words, it is in line with our normal commercial practice. The moment one deviates from normal commercial practices one is looking for trouble, because practices exist for every good reasons.

The quota board still has to be established. So far there is only an interim quota board with limited powers which in fact is so far working only with the chokka of the hon member for Humansdorp, which I shall deal with in a moment. We are still waiting for one of two things; We must either find a chairman who measures up to the requirements laid down in the provisions of the Act, or we must change the Act so that I can establish a quota board with a different chairman.

At this stage I do not think it is necessary to institute a commission of inquiry into this matter. I think the people in the industry understand it very well. I think those who benefit understand it very well and I think those who have to pay the bonus system also understand it very well. The general impression I have is that the majority of the people are quite happy and satisfied.

They are not here!

No, they are entirely happy and satisfied with the system, but its application is still giving problems. But I shall come to that. The hon member for Durban Point referred to the annual report. He complimented us on the appearance, contents, effectiveness and so on. He also discussed river pollution. I agree with the hon member that the entire question of the conservation of our rivers should receive a far higher priority, and if river days are held, this matter ought to get more attention.

†I come now to the hon member for Bryanston. He congratulated the hon member for Caledon and he raised quite a variety of subjects. I am very sorry that the hon member could not complete his speech. He was about to pose a question to which I would very much like to reply.

I am now anticipating what he wanted to say. He wanted to criticise me for not fixing a percentage of the catch for local consumption. Let me tell the hon member that I am as concerned as he is about that portion of the catch in South African waters which goes to the local market, because of the very fact that there is a growing demand for fish. The demand is growing by the day. I think it is proper that what we catch in our waters be made available to our local population.

The hon member mentioned the fact that fish is being exported because of the excellent prices which can be obtained overseas and the importance of the earning of foreign exchange. This is so. I have just visited the biggest fish market in the world, namely the one in Tokyo. There we saw that tuna fish is being sold at an average price of R100 per kilogram, which is exceptionally high. It is no wonder that people try to exploit the overseas market.

If one looks at abalone I have been told that at the moment one can get more than R2 000 per small carton of which the nett weight is just under 20 kilograms. That is an enormous price.

*It seems to me it is more precious than gold. [Interjections.] With such overseas prices one must now accept that the trend among the people in the industry will be to export. In addition we need the foreign exchange. In other words, what I should like to say is that a sound balance should be struck between satisfying the home market and disposing of a surplus, if there is one, on the foreign markets.

†I would like to assure the hon member that I have regular talks with the industry. I spoke to them this week and told them that I do not want to regulate, but I want it seen to that we have adequate fish for the local market.

*Certain species of fish, such as the horse-mackerel, a fish never considered to be of great value, is at present in great demand. Everyone is flocking to buy it.

†I will most probably have to seriously consider introducing a quota system for maasbanker.

*Consequently there is a very large demand for fish both locally and abroad. I want to give the hon member the assurance that my department and I would do everything in our power to maintain a sound balance.

†The hon member for Bryanston spoke on air pollution, pesticides, water and ozone and mentioned a divided responsibility. He stated that he was not in favour of complete centralisation. Centralisation is the norm and decentralisation is the abnormal procedure.

*To me centralisation is also acceptable, but it has certain disadvantages, just as decentralisation also has certain disadvantages. Here, too, we have a case in which a proper balance has to be struck between centralisation and decentralisation. In this case, too, I want to give the hon member the assurance that we are looking into the whole issue of centralisation versus decentralisation all over again.

†We have to decide which functions have to be devolved to the provincial administration and which have to be kept within the central organisation. We are working on that matter.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister whether he does not believe that the department should at least fill a coordinating role and take responsibility for those matters environmental, even though they are decentralising and devolving power down the line?

To a large extent I agree with the hon member, yes, but it is not always so easy to make it work in practice. I think the hon member raised an excellent point and that that is a good idea.

*Mr Chairman, I must really make haste now.

†I wish to thank the hon member for Newholme for the high praise he has for the South African National Heritage Programme. It is an excellent programme of which, I think, we can be very proud.

The hon member for Umhlanga showed clearly that the environment is becoming a very real issue internationally. I mentioned that early in my speech. We believe we can contribute to the pool of knowledge and I also believe that if not perfect we have at our disposal excellent legislation for ensuring a healthy environment. We are of course continually striving to improve the situation.

*The hon member for Hawston must simply take note that harbours are not my responsibility. Therefore he must not pick me out about the harbours. When I told him I would go and take a look at the harbour, I was so new at the job that I did not even know that harbours were not my responsibility. I have since found out that harbours are not really my responsibility, yet I do want to tell him that if I get a chance, I shall nevertheless pay a visit to the harbours at Hawston.

That hon member has a problem with relations between certain employers and employees which are not very cordial. I am prepared to discuss the hon member’s problem with him. There is no problem with that, but I cannot discuss with him a complaint which has not yet been properly established. I have already informed him of this. He is aware of it.

He also discussed the housing of forest workers. Of course it is an awkward situation that a subsidy can only be paid if the person concerned is occupying a house. That is the general practice.

The hon member for Wellington said I did not reply to him, but I should very much like to do so. The hon member raised a matter which I am very concerned about, and that is littering. A really think we must sometimes feel ashamed of what we are doing. [Interjections.] Recently I also had the privilege of travelling through a country like Malawi. It is an extremely poor country, but from south to north and back again, I did not see any litter. Those people keep their country very clean.

The question of plastic waste is a serious problem. We are doing work in this country on the so-called biodegradable plastics, but to my mind that is still not the ideal solution. The ideal solution is to keep our country clean.

The hon member for Bethelsdorp discussed a few matters. The drought in the Eastern Cape is one that is only likely to occur once in 200 years. It is very difficult to plan for such a drought, but the hon the Deputy Minister of Water Affairs will reply to that hon member in greater detail tomorrow.

The hon member Mr Abram raised an interesting matter which I also feel very strongly about, and that is the so-called Forestry for Energy, the planting of trees for firewood, and I think a great deal can be done. We are engaged in research on the right types of trees to use. All that remains is to find the correct incentive to get people to plant trees.

I took cognisance of the problem the hon member for Humansdorp had, namely that things were now going so well with the chokka industry that abnormally high prices were being paid for so-called sites on the boats.

We saw this coming. We foresaw a problem. We said that if we did not clamp down on this problem, a few large companies were going to have all the chokka licences, because the smaller companies were going to sell out at these high prices. That has happened. I listened carefully to the hon member and I shall think again about the question of whether I should end the period now. It is not long to go before September.

Perhaps the men should hold out a little bit longer. As from September they can begin to trade in the licences, but we are going to watch the situation. I am going to place a restriction in that not more than a prescribed number may be held by one party. Everyone must know this.

The hon member for Steinkopf discussed the quotas to the communities. Port Nolloth is the only municipality in the country that has a quota. He spoke about municipalities. This quota for Port Nolloth—it is a small quota of 500-tons— was specifically given to the Port Nolloth community because they were unemployed. Because they had nothing we gave them the 500 ton quota, and it is being administered for the Coloured community of Port Nolloth.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

My time has already expired. I shall gladly reply to the hon member’s question later.

I want to tell the hon member for Aliwal that the wattled crane is a bird species that is already being protected, but we can take a look at his specific problem in his area.

†The hon member for Durban North must please take note that I have already arrange to personally inspect the mining operations there. I have had talks with the mining company. I have had talks with the environment people and within the near future I will visit that area. He is welcome to accompany me on that trip.

May I come as well?

Yes, you may. Arrange it with your colleague.

*The hon member for Wuppertal and I had a long conversation with some of his voters during the past week. I am aware of the hon member’s problems in regard to the payment of these funds. I want to give him the assurance that I am going to do everything in my power—although I do not have absolute control over this matter—to help him and his people.

I want to thank all those who participated in this debate.