Mr Chairman, on behalf of the Leader of House I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, at present we are discussing the own affairs budget of the Administration: House of Assembly, and during the debates on the Votes so far it struck me that the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, the new national leader of the NP, very seldom put in an appearance here. In fact, if my memory is not deceiving me, he has not been present here once during the discussion of the Votes. [Interjections.]

I am pointing this out specifically because the new national leader of the NP, not so terribly long ago, made the statement that he would in fact like to extend own affairs in regard to the new constitutional dispensation. [Interjections.] This remark, if my memory is not failing me, was made in 1987. Nevertheless we have to this day heard nothing further about this promise of the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. We ask whether this is another of those empty promises made to the voters outside, while in reality nothing happens. [Interjections.]

In the second place mention was made during the discussion of the Votes of the situation at a few local authorities, and only yesterday reference was made to the situation as far as CP-controlled local authorities were concerned.

I have here in my hand a photograph which I am prepared to make available to the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works so that he may comment on it. It is a photograph taken in the bathing area at the Strand, Somerset West. [Interjections.] I should like to read out to the hon the Minister what is stated on the signboard on this photograph. It says: “Strand en see net Blankes. Beach and sea Whites only.” [Interjections.]

This is no ordinary signboard. It is a red board with black letters, with an arrow at the bottom. [Interjections.] Nor is this an ordinary arrow, because one usually draws an arrow pointing in only one direction, but this photograph, which was taken on a beach falling under an NP-controlled town council, has an arrow at the bottom pointing in both directions. [Interjections.] The intention was therefore to make certain that this beach area, under an NP-controlled town council, would be for Whites only in all directions.

We want to ask what kind of political morality it is to attack the CP on this point, while the attacker commits the same sin, according to his view of the matter. [Interjections.] We want an answer to this! I am prepared to send this photograph to the hon the Minister now so that he can say what kind of political morality this is. [Interjections.]

I should like to come back to the report of the Administration: House of Assembly, under the heading “Administration for White Own Affairs”. I want to refer to page 1, and quote the following:

By that is meant the new constitutional dispensation—

Here it states “full legislative and executive authority”! I want to put it to the hon the Minister that what is stated on page 1 is a misrepresentation, it is misleading, because the Own Affairs Administration: House of Assembly does not have full executive and legislative authority. I want to quote from the Constitution …

Order! I am under the impression that we are now discussing the Budgetary and Auxiliary Services and Improvement of Conditions of Service Votes. The hon member has not yet arrived at those Votes. The hon member must slowly start doing so now.

Mr Chairman, I also want to refer to the corresponding debate which took place last year and in which the same discussion was dealt with on a wide basis in regard to the financial situation in the Administration: House of Assembly.

Order! The discussion now is concerned with the Vote; not with the First Reading. The hon member must now discuss the Vote.

Mr Chairman, I should like to refer to item 11, schedule 1 of the Constitution, which deals with and is fundamental to the moneys that are being made available for Votes 5 and 6 which are at present under discussion. [Interjections.] Item 11, schedule 1 of the Constitution is significant in that the own affairs budget of the House of Assembly, which is fundamental to Votes 5 and 6, can have no meaning whatsoever in view of the fact that there can be no question of the Administration: House of Assembly, which is responsible for Votes 5 and 6, having its own financial independence. [Interjections.] There is no question of the Administration: House of Assembly, which is responsible for Votes 5 and 6, which are now under discussion, being able to levy its own taxes or raise its own loans.

Order! I am now going to ask the hon member for a second time to discuss the Vote.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The Vote which is now under discussion is the Budgetary and Auxiliary Services Vote. It is the Vote of the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works which is being discussed, and I want to ask you to give the hon member an opportunity to digress a little further than merely the question of Works and Improvement of Conditions of Service, because it is also the Vote of the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works.

Order! There is or was an opportunity to discuss the Vote of the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works. However, now is not the opportunity to do so.

Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order. However, I do not wish to be accused of wasting anybody’s time.

Order!

Mr Chairman, my point of order is that we have prepared for this debate on the basis that we want to discuss the Vote of the hon the Minister in the same way as we would discuss it if he were the hon the Minister of Finance. We have never assumed or understood that we could have a general political debate on the general affairs Vote of the hon the Minister of Finance.

If we are going to have a general political debate we would like to know, so that we can adapt ourselves to it. We want to discuss the Vote of this particular hon Minister in the context of his Vote. That is what we have prepared for. Mr Chairman, if you are going to allow a broad political discussion we would like to know in order also to participate.

Order! That is exactly what I have suggested to the hon member for Losberg. I have twice requested him to return to the discussion of the Vote. The third time I shall request him to resume his seat. The hon member may continue but he will only discuss the Vote and not conduct a general political debate.

Mr Chairman, I respect your standpoint and consequently I shall refer further to Vote 6: Improvement of Conditions of Service, in respect of which it was stated in the explanatory memorandum that an amount of R7,044 million had been made available for occupational specific improvements for the 1989-90 financial year.

In the present financial year no provision is being made for any general salary improvements. This means that officials of the Administration: House of Assembly will have to manage without any salary increases for the next 12 to 15 months. In view of the high inflation rate and the present instability in this country, which cause high interest rates, they will again fall further behind. We are aware that the situation in regard to officials in this administration has reached critical levels. There have been numerous resignations.

Last year during the discussion of the Vote relating to conditions of service the CP pointed out that provision should have been made for salary increases in a systematic, planned and co-ordinated way, but that was not done. At the end of last year we then had the announcement in connection with the improvement of conditions of service. That is precisely how this Government plans. It plans after the time, because by that time those resignations had already taken place in this financial year. We then had the situation that numerous officials, who could have been beneficial to the administration, were lost. I need only refer to the number of resignations in this connection in the teaching sector.

We now have a precise repetition of that situation. The hon the Minister of the Budget and Works must tell us whether there is no planning for the future in regard to the improvement of the conditions of service of officials in this Vote of the Administration: House of Assembly. If this situation continues it can only have a paralysing effect on the Administration: House of Assembly. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I would just like to say to the hon member for Losberg that the CP are full of bluster, especially in this Chamber, when it comes to “die kiesers daar buite” but when it comes to their performance outside in these constituencies it is another story altogether.

In last week’s issue of the Patriot there was a big advertisement for a public meeting of the CP on 15 March in my constituency, with Louis Stofberg as speaker. In fact, they had boards up for this meeting all over my constituency. Do hon members know how many people turned up? Exactly 28 people. However, that included the staff of the school where the meeting was held as well as two NP members that I know of. [Interjections.] It is an indication of how urban constituencies are rejecting the CP’s policies.

I will be speaking about Vote No 5—Budgetary and Auxiliary Services—which is the matter in hand. The hon the Minister of the Budget and Works and his department have made strict financial discipline and control the hallmark of their approach to the own affairs budget but at the same time this approach has been softened by a real appreciation of our cultural heritage and by efforts to identify the department with our cultural heritage. Other speakers will be dealing with this aspect in more detail but I would like to congratulate the department on their praiseworthy attitude.

There are a number of indications in this budget of this strict financial discipline and tight financial control. These were listed by the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works in his budget speech, the most noteworthy being a mere 5,7% increase in expenditure compared with the revised amount for 1988-89; although the department is rendering the same if not an improved service, and, if one compares this with the 15% increase in the Main Budget, the extent of this achievement is clear.

I would like to draw attention particularly to the budgetary achievements of this department which has to deal with no fewer than 450 annual accounts, compared with the 50 to 60 annual accounts which have to be processed by other departments.

The department has implemented financial control by way of a prescribed inspection and reporting programme conducted on a quarterly basis in terms of which departmental heads and their top managements are regularly able to identify irregularities, failure to follow prescribed procedures or to meet targets. These quarterly inspections are based on a questionnaire completed by line management in this department which makes it much easier for the financial controllers to identify if anything is amiss. They are then immediately able to implement corrective measures.

This system of internal inspections which was instituted approximately a year ago has really, as hon members can see, paid dividends. The results are there for all to see: A financial administration that has really turned the corner, has completely satisfied the Auditor-General and is one of the first departments in this House to implement performance auditing. The head of this department, Mr Snyman, and what he describes as his “backroom boys”, certainly deserve full credit for this achievement.

The improved productivity achieved by this department should also not go unremarked at a time when South Africa’s overall low and even declining productivity performance has been highlighted by the President’s Council. The PFP supporting press is continually harping on its accusations of low productivity on the part of Government and the increasing number of Public Servants.

However, this department has really shown that it can be done. In fact, there is no good reason why high levels of productivity should not be achieved. For example, during the years 1977 to 1988 in which the NP controlled the Johannesburg City Council, productivity actually increased by 55%. There were 1,2% fewer employees in the council in 1988 than there had been in 1977 although the budget had increased by 500% during that period, which is an indication of the greatly increased services that were rendered.

Now the own affairs administration has produced figures which also indicate a high rate of productivity. Although a number of functions and services provided by the State have been and are still being transferred to the own affairs administration, the net number of posts in the department has grown by only seven, and that is out of an enormous staff numbering more than 87 000. This is quite an outstanding achievement.

The functions and services being transferred are being constantly subjected to the test of whether they are necessary or effective. It seems to me that this department overall is really doing its best to make each rand go a long way.

Before my time is up I would like to say a brief word about one of the auxiliary services organised by this department, and that is the appointment and control of marriage officers. There are lots of very interesting functions hidden away in this department’s budget, and this is one of them. Marriage officers are really the unsung servants of our society, and they very seldom get a word of appreciation for the voluntary and unpaid work they do, except perhaps from the happy couples concerned.

Since 1 October 1985, the Ministers of the respective own affairs administrations have been responsible for the appointment of marriage officers from the communities they serve—that is to say the Administration: House of Assembly is responsible for the appointment of White marriage officers—although once appointed a marriage officer may solemnise a marriage of members of any population group.

Some marriage officers previously appointed by churches do in fact have limited authority to perform marriages, but they may apply in writing for a more general authority. In fact, the department lists a total of 420 different religious denominations in South Africa which have applied to appoint marriage officers, a statistic which I must say surprised me.

The total of marriage officers in the Republic is 16 260, so there are quite a lot of them around! If one complies with the minimum educational qualifications of a marriage officer, namely a matric certificate or the equivalent theological certification or qualification, and one has passed a small test, it is possible to be appointed a marriage officer for one day only to solemnise a particular marriage. In fact, a previous head of this department was appointed for one day to perform the marriage of his own secretary at her request.

A marriage officer has to be appointed in writing, and failure to comply with this or any other formality has to be condoned by the department. I see that this happened 13 times last year. A little while ago a priest handed over a particular wedding to one of his colleagues without the latter having completed the necessary formalities to be appointed a marriage officer. Two months later, the husband in the case, who by this time had decided that marriage was definitely a bad idea, tried to get the marriage annulled on this score, but—bad luck!—this was one of the cases of condonation listed by the department.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I think South Africa’s marriage officers do an excellent job of work and deserve our thanks.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Rosettenville made some very interesting remarks about marriage officers. I had the feeling while she was speaking that she was actually a sort of marriage broker within the NP, who was trying to ensure there were no more bachelors there. I am not quite sure what the purpose of her speech about marriage officers was, so if she is in fact performing that service within the NP, it may be a very good one. [Interjections.]

She will no doubt understand that the fact that a marriage officer who can perform marriages between Black and White can be a White own affair is a little beyond my comprehension. If it is anybody’s affair, it is that of the Black and White people getting married. It is a general affair even though it is a private affair, but it certainly is not a House of Assembly affair. How that can be is quite beyond me.

She referred to the report of the Auditor-General. She again appears to have some kind of intimate knowledge which we ordinary members of the House do not have. I have asked where the report of the Auditor-General is, and it seems to be another of those elusive scarlet pimpernels. Where is the report? We have the general affairs report, but the report on the own affairs of the House of Assembly is apparently available to some people only. It seems that it is not available to us, and it has not been tabled. I think some explanation in regard to that is needed.

I would like to deal with a number of other matters and want to ask the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works to react specifically as to how he sees the priorities and the allocation of funds between his various departments and how he has allocated these funds in accordance with his own priority.

As we see it, there are some fundamental priorities which need to be looked at. The first of these which is entrusted to him is the question of the health of the people for which he is responsible. We say that that is a major priority. The second is the education of the youth of our nation, which is another vital priority. The third is the care of the people who are incapacitated by reason of age and other factors.

We then come to other issues such as housing, local government and everything else. The reality is that there must be some fundamental priorities which must receive money before others do.

To our mind, what is happening at the present moment in the allocation of funds is two things. Firstly, the health of the people is suffering because of the inadequacy of the hospital services which are provided. There is no question that that is becoming a reality. [Interjections.] Secondly, what is happening on top of it is that the concept …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: At present, Vote 5: Budgetary and Auxiliary Services, and Vote 6: Improvement of Conditions of Service are being discussed and not Welfare and Health Services. [Interjections.]

That is a lousy trick.

Mr Chairman, I am busy addressing you on a point of order and I am finding it difficult with all these interjections. This debate does not deal with Welfare and Health Services to which the hon member for Yeoville is referring at present.

Mr Chairman, I know this is a lousy trick because this is a trick which has been perpetrated. I am talking about priorities in the allocation of funds which is the function of the hon the Minister and I am talking about how he should do it. If this game goes on, that is fair enough, but it is an abuse. [Interjections.] I can play the same trick on them. [Interjections.]

You started it. [Interjections.] That hon member started it with the hon member for Middelburg the other day. Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is it correct for the hon member to talk about “a lousy trick” when he refers to … [Interjections.]

Order! The first point that we should take cognizance of is that the hon member should withdraw the words “lousy trick”. The hon member is entitled to take points of order. As I made a little allowance of time for the other hon member I will do the same in this case. I request the hon member to withdraw the words “lousy trick”.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw them out of respect for you, but I want to say without any hesitation that it is an act of revenge, and the hon member for Brakpan has admitted that he regards it as an act of revenge for what was done to the hon member for Middelburg.

I did not admit that.

He said it and it is on record. [Interjections.] I do not expect anything better from the CP. They belong in the dustbin of South Africa. That is where they are and that is where they belong. [Interjections.] That is the reality. They belong to the dustbin of South Africa and that is where they will eventually be consigned. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Brakpan is making too many interjections. The hon member for Yeoville may proceed.

I want to deal with the priorities in regard to expenditure. I am now also referring to the question of user-charges which is directly within the ambit of the hon the Minister.

The issue which arises is that in terms of the law, such as it is in the schedule to the Constitution, the Minister is vested with certain powers relating to finance which deal both with the charge for the services and with levies. When we come to the question of hospitalisation, one of the disturbing features for the public at the moment is the fear that the charges in respect of hospital services are going to go up—that is the charges for services rendered as opposed to the levy—so substantially that we will find that it is again the middle-class, who do not have the benefit of medical aid and who do not have the means to pay, who will be the sufferers in the end.

What I ask the hon the Minister to do is to give us a policy statement on user-charges in respect of hospital services. What does he have in mind and will he consider the plight of the middle-classes of South Africa who at every turn are being pressurized by inflation and high prices?

The second point I want to raise is the question of the formula. We have been told the formula has been abandoned. We have been told there is a new scheme but we have not been told what it is. This is the time to tell us how the money is going to be apportioned. I would like to know because we have not been told how the money has been apportioned between the three different Houses on this occasion.

There has been no answer to the fact that varying percentages were allowed on last year’s allocations of money from general affairs and that in fact the House of Representatives had a lower percentage than the House of Assembly, which to my mind is an abnormality which has not been explained. Therefore we need to know how the money has been apportioned. What is the principle behind this allocation of funds?

The third point I want to raise is the question of own funds. We have had money in the past which has become available from sources other than the general affairs budget. In particular, if we look at the estimates, we will see that there are own sources of revenue. One of the issues which arises is …

Order! I am not quite certain under what Vote …

I am talking about the budget and I am talking about the responsibility the hon the Minister has for levies. If this is out of order, then, with great respect, nothing is in order. I am talking about the responsibility of this hon Minister in regard to the own revenue which the House of Assembly can raise. Perhaps you would care to look, Sir, at page v which deals with own sources of revenue. If the Minister of the Budget does not deal with revenue which comes in, then what does he deal with? Does he only deal with expenditure?

I see that Vote No 5 is Auxiliary Services.

No Sir, he is the Minister of the Budget!

That might be so but he also …

With great respect, Sir, I think there is some confusion as to what Minister we are dealing with. We are dealing with the Minister of the Budget.

The hon the Minister might be the Minister of three or four different departments. Be that as it may, Vote No 5 we are discussing now is Auxiliary Services and Vote No 6 is Improvement of Conditions of Service.

But, Sir, what are budgetary services? If you are going to say that I cannot talk about the functions of the hon the Minister, then we must stop the debate now.

I understand. The hon member may continue.

Thank you. [Interjections.] May I ask where the off-budget financing is, particularly in respect of loans and particularly in respect of matters relating to houses? If I look at the figures provided, we see a dramatic reduction in respect of an item on page v, under the heading “Recovery of Loans and Advances” where we find a decrease of R1,842 million. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, before I reply to a few points that were made by the hon member for Yeoville I should just like to deal with one or two minor points mentioned by the hon member for Losberg. The hon member kicked up a great fuss because the hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council is not present here this morning.

Because he was not here during the discussion of the Votes!

He was here, yes. I can remember very well that the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council made a speech during the First Reading of the Appropriation Bill. [Interjections.] In any case, he was here more frequently than the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition is present in this House.

That is a party which pretends that it is going to give preference to White affairs if they should ever come into power one day in South Africa. [Interjections.] Someone over there is saying that that is correct, but the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition displays very little interest in White affairs in this House. That is why he is absent here and occasionally he has his second-in-command here, but apart from that it is only the ordinary members of the caucus who conduct these debates and participate in them.

You sleep so much that you will never see them anyway.

The hon member for Nigel cannot even suspend six members of the CP, who stood as independents in Heidelberg, in his waking moments to say nothing about when he is sleeping. If I were him I would not have so much to say. [Interjections.]

I come now to a subsequent point made by the hon member for Losberg. He simply paged over to Vote 6 here and said no provision was being made in this Vote for salary increases for the officials of this administration, but that provision was only being made for occupational specific services.

You must have been sleeping!

No, I was not sleeping. I was not sleeping, but the hon member must have been dreaming. That is what happened. The hon member for Losberg was dreaming while he made his speech. He made it with considerable difficulty, and it was difficult to follow him at times. If he reads the particulars in Vote 5 Budgetary and Auxiliary Services he will see that there was a net increase of R6,341 million for this year. In this explanation it is stated that it was being used for general salary adjustments and occupational specific improvements, but it suits the hon member for Losberg to have on record that he had pointed out that no provision had been made for salary increases in the budget of this hon Minister.

Look at Vote 6.

I looked at Vote 6, but that dealt with something entirely different to salary increases of the officials of this administration. That is what the hon member for Losberg could not perceive. [Interjections.] It is a fact. The hon member probably did not take the trouble—after all he wanted to make a general political speech—to re-examine the particulars of these Votes—otherwise he would have spotted this information. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Yeoville is not here at the moment, but he referred to marriage officers under this department. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members are in a jocular mood now and are going too far. The hon member for Losberg is making too many interjections. The hon member for Kuruman may proceed.

The hon member for Losberg is a little excited at the moment, but we shall pardon him. If I have time just now I shall calm him down by quoting a few paragraphs to him from Rooi Jan: Die Skrik van Kafferland. [Interjections.]

†The hon member for Yeoville referred to a speech made by my colleague, the hon member for Rosettenville. The hon member accused her of trying to act as a marriage broker and he wanted to know the purpose of this. The hon member for Rosettenville may have had the marriage in mind which is to take place on 8 April when a marriage between the various parties to the left of the Government is to be contracted. I do not know who is going to stand father for this marriage but I know it is going to be a pretty polygamous one! [Interjections.] There are various leaders of parties in this new party deal but I suppose they cannot all be leaders. A leader has to be elected and I suppose he will be the father of that party.

Order! I presume the hon member is referring, under the Votes, to the conditions of service of the three leaders of those parties. The hon member must return to the Votes under discussion.

Mr Chairman, I was trying very hard to do that but I was interrupted so frequently that I could not. [Interjections.] I notice the hon member for Yeoville has returned to the House.

He has returned from rummaging in the dustbin. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, unfortunately it is late now. The hon member for Yeoville returned too late. I wanted to poke a little fun at the hon member; sometimes he puts up with it rather well.

I just want to say that what is being proclaimed, ie that this Government and the hon the Minister in particular has no sympathy for the needs, specifically the salary needs of his officials, is a great untruth. If we look at this Vote we shall see that generous provision is being made for this, not only for salary increases, but also for occupational specific needs. Just as in all the other Government departments, however, it is a fact—one which the NP has never tried to argue away—that there is an urgent need to implement certain economies so as to contain the expenditure of the State to such an extent that it does not comprise the bulk of the expenditure in the economy in general. That is why one was not able to meet all the needs.

I just want to tell the hon member for Losberg, who spoke about resignations from the public service a moment ago, that it is a well-known fact that when one has growth in the private sector of the economy the public service cannot in any way compete with the private sector—not in regard to salaries either. It is as a result of the growth we had last year and the year before in the South African economy that we had resignations from the public service. The resignations were from all branches of the public service, not merely from this particular one. This always happens. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is obvious that the hon member for Kuruman did not prepare a speech for this occasion. That is why he referred to Rooi Jan: Die Skrik van Kafferland when he started to react instinctively. [Interjections.]

Earlier on in the debate the hon member for Rosettenville referred to a meeting which had been held in her constituency at which 28 people were ostensibly present. One of the hon members on this side of the House has just telephoned these people and he was told that there were between 65 and 70 people at the meeting. [Interjections.] I want to draw the attention of the hon member to the fact that a few weeks ago …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is it correct that meetings which take place in Rosettenville are within the ambit of the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works? [Interjections.]

Why don’t you put the lid on the dustbin?

Mr Chairman, the hon member is discussing a meeting which took place in Rosettenville, a meeting of political nature unrelated to the subject under discussion.

The hon member may continue. I will listen to him carefully and if he deviates too far I will call him to order.

Mr Chairman, I want to draw the hon member’s attention to the fact that a few weeks ago a meeting was held in the Soutpansberg constituency at which two members of Parliament from that side of the House were present. There were no fewer than four people present at this meeting. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order …

Order!

The hon exhibitionist for Yeoville. [Interjections.]

In the explanatory memorandum it is mentioned with regard to Vote No 6 that for the 1989-90 financial year an amount of slightly more than R7 million has been transferred to the Administration: House of Assembly by the Commission for Administration in respect of occupational specific improvements for this year. It is not specified what this amount is going to be used for. I should like clarity on this from the hon the Minister.

I want to take this opportunity to make a serious appeal to the hon the Minister this morning that when allocations are made from this Vote he should specifically keep education in mind for occupational specific adjustments.

Last year no fewer than 5 247 persons resigned from teaching posts. This is 9,37% of the total number of posts. In the Transvaal alone there were 3 374 resignations. This is 12,01% of the total number of posts. In the Transvaal on 3 February 1989 there were 39 posts in key subjects such as science, mathematics, English and technical subjects, which were not filled.

Undoubtedly the most important reason for the resignations from teaching posts is the poor conditions of service. I concede that there are also other reasons, but one thing is obvious: The conditions of service of teachers—even after the recent adjustment in salaries—compare unfavourably with those in the private sector.

The Federal Teachers’ Council ascribes the alarming number of resignations from teaching posts directly to this. In a Press statement on 15 September 1988 this body said the following about this situation:

This morning it was mentioned in a report on the radio that the FTC was going to investigate this matter again.

An investigation undertaken by the FTC in August 1988 into the increasing exodus of teachers and the implications of this for education, revealed the following facts.

In the first place salaries and conditions of service are cited by most teachers as the most important reason why they stop teaching. In the second place approximately 85% of those persons who resigned in 1987-88 were under 40 years of age, and approximately 56% were under 30. It is therefore the younger teachers who are seeking employment elsewhere. Consequently the corps of teachers is becoming older.

In the third place, more than 37% of those persons who have resigned since 1 January 1987 have been men. If it is also taken into account that when vacancies are filled 20% of the replacements are men and 80% are women, this indicates that the number of male teachers is declining steadily. It is difficult to determine what negative effect this trend is going to have on the development of the children, and particularly the boys.

In the fourth place approximately 90% of the teachers who stopped teaching in 1987 and approximately 87% of those who stopped in 1988 were appointed as post level 1 teachers. It is therefore primarily those persons who must provide education and training in the classroom and in the lecture hall who are resigning.

In the fifth place a lowering in standards is reflected, in spite of what the hon the Minister of Education and Culture said here in the House last Friday, in the opinion of principals as regards posts which have to be filled as a result of resignations. In 1987 approximately 66% of the posts were, in the opinion of principals, filled satisfactorily. In 1988 this figure was only 57,5%. In 1987 approximately 23% of the posts were, in the opinion of principals, filled unsatisfactorily. In 1988 this figure rose to approximately 27,5%. The percentage of cases in which the standards could not be maintained after resignations is therefore rising slowly but surely.

I do not have the time to submit any more of these shocking findings of the FTC to the House this morning. What I find even more shocking than these findings is the nonchalance with which these findings of the FTC were treated. Last Friday the hon the Minister of Education and Culture reacted to my private member’s motion in which I asked inter alia that the Government be censured because it had failed to check the exodus of teachers from the teaching profession, especially in key subjects. The hon the Minister reacted, and when we read his Hansard it is clear that he was actually telling this House that I did not have my facts straight; that what I had said was not true. The exodus has been checked and all is again well with the teaching profession. He reached this ill-considered conclusion on the basis of a comparison of the resignations in December 1988 with those in January 1989.

That hon Minister was still here a while ago. He nevertheless left the Chamber just before I started speaking.

He ran away!

I nevertheless want to tell this hon Minister that it is absurd to compare resignations from the teaching profession during December with resignations during January. They cannot be compared, and he as an intelligent man, as a man who has himself been involved with teaching, should know this. I do not think he could convince the most stupid listener with such an argument—least of all the organised teaching profession.

The CP wants to make a serious appeal to the Government not to handle resignations from the teaching profession so indifferently. The real cause of this must be tackled—the conditions of service of teachers. If this is not done there will be a further exodus from the teaching profession. The damage already suffered owing to resignations from the teaching profession cannot be made good, particularly in the short term. For that reason it is essential for the Government … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I certainly agree with the hon member for Brits that the loss of teachers and the failure to motivate teachers are very serious matters which require urgent attention. I also agree that not enough has been done in that regard and that money has to be found to remunerate that sector better than they have been remunerated in the recent past.

I wish to speak on another topic this morning, a topic directly affecting the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works. A feature of the past five years in our economy, which is in a sense something new over the past few decades, is the dramatic fluctuation in interest rates that has taken place. Generally speaking, this causes some problems for businesses. For some businesses it actually causes major problems. That is, however, part and parcel of a free-market approach in economic matters.

For many home-owners, however, rapidly increasing mortgage interest rates can result in unbearable financial burdens. This has happened, and is happening right now. Unfortunately, in respect of the current situation, the Government’s vote-seeking policies last year, artificially suppressing interest rates prior to the municipal elections, have seriously aggravated the position during the past year. This has occurred in the past, and may well occur again in the future. It therefore has to be addressed.

There are two important goals in our society which are threatened by this phenomenon. The first is the goal of affordable home-ownership for as many people as possible, and the second is the need to increase acceptance of private enterprise as against socialism.

There are many people who have saved long and hard to try to own a home. Last year when interest rates were about 12% they were finally able just to make the limits and buy a home. In less than a year, they now find themselves in a serious predicament. Those people are not only going to become disillusioned with the idea of home-ownership, which can be a great stabilising factor in our society, but are also—in many cases quite understandably—going to take the view that if this is what private enterprise is all about then maybe socialism has more to offer. It does threaten two important goals that I think we should have in our society.

Over a period of less than a year, mortgage interest rates have increased by more than 50% for many home-owners. The result is that the single biggest budget item in many families’ monthly expenditure—mortgage bond repayment—has increased by more than 50% over a period of months.

For many families this has precipitated a financial crisis, particularly for those who stretched their resources to the limit to buy a home in the recent past. Some face the possibility of losing their homes, while others have taken drastic steps such as cutting down on their expenditure on food or looking for second jobs to supplement their incomes.

What can be done about this? As with many complex problems, I am not suggesting that there is an easy solution. I would, however, like to make some suggestions to the hon the Minister as he has responsibilities in that regard and to the hon the Minister of Finance who has an even greater responsibility.

First of all I suggest that it is a matter that is worthy of thorough and in-depth investigation. Secondly, I think we need to accept that the present situation is both unsatisfactory and untenable and that a solution has to be found to this problem.

There is a specific suggestion I would like to put to the hon the Minister for consideration by him and his colleagues dealing with this matter, which would include the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing, as well as the hon the Minister of Finance. The suggestion I would like to make for consideration—I think it might well contain at least some of the elements of the solution—is the following: That the hon the Minister of Finance determines a “basic” interest rate from time to time similar to the way he does in respect of fringe benefit taxation.

In the recent past he might have determined a rate of 15%—that is just an example. One would then have a system whereby new bond repayment calculations would have to be based on this rate or the current interest rate, whichever was the higher at the time. One would therefore not get a situation where interest rates are abnormally low for a short period and people would not be making commitments on the basis of that low monthly repayment.

If the actual market interest rates increase after a bond has been taken out, the home-owner’s repayment will not increase by more than the effect of, say, a 1% increase in interest rates every six months. One would therefore not have this dramatic fluctuation. The repayment element would only increase by a relatively small amount.

To make allowance for this, the repayment period would simply be extended to cover what one might call the “unpaid” interest. The burden would then in the short term not fall on the home-owner in a dramatic way, although adjustment in a limited way could be made because in times of high inflation and high interest rates most home-owners’ incomes do go up from time to time.

Let me emphasise that the market interest rates would continue to be charged and debited to the bondholder’s account. The market interest rates would therefore not be affected as such.

The final element would be that if the market interest rates fell below the determined “basic” rate—the example I have used is 15%—the monthly repayments would not drop below that level based on the 15%, particularly if a backlog had developed on repayment of a particular bond.

One would then have a cushioning effect on the swings and roundabouts. When interest rates are very low a bondholder would be paying back faster than was absolutely required in terms of the bond. When interest rates are abnormally high the bondholder would have the option of paying less that the market rate demands, although he would obviously also be able to pay the full amount. In this way, without financial loss or great financial risk to the financial institution, the bondholder or home-owner could be reasonably accommodated. In that way the most unhappy, unsatisfactory and unacceptable circumstances that are currently arising for very many people in our country could be prevented.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Before you give the next speaker the floor, I merely want to say we still have problems with your ruling on the matters that may be discussed under this Vote. Once again a speech has been made about budgetary matters that apply with regard to the hon the Minister of Finance. That is precisely what was discussed by the hon member for Losberg, but you did not permit him to continue in that vein. With all due respect, we want to ask you to reconsider the matter so that we know the exact scope of the matters we may discuss.

Order! I can understand why the hon member raised this point of order. I had a problem myself with the speech made by the hon member for Cape Town Gardens. I did not know when or how he was going to link it to the Vote under discussion, but I did not want to interrupt him unnecessarily. In considering the matter, it can be linked to the policy of the hon the Minister stated in the programme description, as well as to the rendering of financial and administrative services.

In my humble opinion, the hon member was only just inside the limits of the subject under discussion. Since the hon member was not making a general political speech, I permitted him to proceed. The hon member for Losberg, on the other hand, was making a general political speech.

Mr Chairman, may I address you on that point as you were disappointed that I did not indicate a connection? The hon the Minister handles the finances for the own affairs administration, in which specifically housing is a responsibility and there is a Minister responsible for that.

I accept that.

I was talking about financial policy and its impact on housing, and he is responsible for that.

Yes, I accept that. That is what I thought the hon member was really referring to, namely housing in that sense. The connection was, however, not all that obvious.

Mr Chairman, I bow to your superior judgement.

I did not stop the hon member. That is why I allowed the hon member to continue.

*Now the hon member for Brakpan has also heard something more about the background of the ruling.

Mr Chairman, I shall confine myself to the Vote. The Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services oils the machinery of the entire structure of all the departments in the Administration: House of Assembly. In one way or another all hon members of this House have had cause, at some time or another, to be thankful for the calm and efficient manner in which all those in this department perform their vital functions. I do not believe it is an exaggeration to say that without this department of White own affairs, Parliament itself would come to a standstill. The effectiveness of all the departments and functions of the Administration: House of Assembly is totally dependent on the efficiency of this department, so ably headed by the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works and his head of department, Mr Snyman. To use a colloquialism, these back-room boys perform a tremendous service which, sadly enough, often goes unnoticed and which is seldom publicly praised. I think we should remedy this and I, for one, pay tribute to the dedication and the efficiency of all concerned.

As it is a supportive auxiliary service department it seldom hits the headlines because not even the Opposition can find political mud to sling at it.

This is just as well because the impartiality of all the persons in the department is a byword.

Among the many functions of the department are the support of the other departments, the appointment of personnel, promotions, transfers, payment of salaries, ongoing computerisation, and work study investigations to determine the need or otherwise for new posts and post structures, as well as investigations into proceedings and methods with a view to improving efficiency.

The department is also the vital link with the office of the Commission for Administration through the Director-General and the Treasury of the House of Assembly. It is thus also the link with the central Treasury. The department provides a range of comprehensive services to enhance the efficiency of all the departments it serves. It also provides a training component to teach vital skills to those departments. It provides security services to the Administration: House of Assembly. It also has a legal service which assists with the drafting of legislation and which advises on agreements and other legal matters. It has a provisioning section which is responsible for the correct and proper purchasing and control of all stores and equipment in the administration.

Lastly, it supplies the secretariat of the Ministers’ Council under the chairmanship of the hon the Minister of National Education, the hon the Leader of the House. The department may truly be described as the bonding agent which holds the House of Assembly together and which ensures the efficient administration of finance and personnel.

Without being critical of anyone, I think at some time or another the House must take cognizance of the rising costs of maintaining the political process—the cost of printing, telephones and all the other things that go into bringing democracy to the voters through the modern media at our disposal. Regrettably, the Press tends to report, for reasons we all understand, only the sensational or, in other words, only the icing on the cake.

The department and the administration as a whole labour under difficult circumstances. For instance, the number of posts allocated to this administration upon its inception has not been substantially increased since our financial circumstances have regrettably caused a restriction on the intake of Public Service personnel—this despite snide and shocking horror stories in the Press about what they describe as bloated bureaucracy. Perhaps some of those newspapers should look at the number of assistant editors, deputy editors and assistants to the editors they have. As they say in Afrikaans: “Vee eers voor jou eie deur”.

The demands on this administration are much greater than ever. This is because of the ever increasing sophistication of the service and of the expectations of the public in regard to the maintenance of standards. Examples of this are the growing sophistication of agriculture, health and welfare, education and culture, universities, schools, agricultural colleges, hospitals and health care facilities, including dental faculties.

The department has been responsible for supervising the developing on a cost-effective basis of one of the most sophisticated computerised services to meet the complex demands of today’s administration procedures. To have evolved such a programme and implemented it at a time when no new posts have been created, has been an awesome challenge and has doubled the workload of personnel. There is without doubt a pressing need to maintain professionalism through the appointment of more accountants, computer experts and professionally trained administrators and for remunerating such persons adequately. There is also a crying need to appoint more assistants with the appropriate experience to assist already overburdened officials.

Having said that, I would be failing in my duty if I did not touch on the hysterical campaign by the media against the Public Service on account of the relatively small number of irregularities that have been uncovered in recent times. While it is true that we all expect the highest possible standards of morality and right conduct from those holding public office, it is also unfair to tar with the same brush the entire Public Service on account of a few black sheep. Certainly the conduct of certain persons is intolerable and must be punished where such punishment is called for. It is also clear that we on this side of the House do not stand for that. Indeed, the number of firm steps that have already been taken in a variety of cases is ample proof that this Government will not tolerate any unbecoming conduct. At the same time it must be clearly emphasised that our Public Service is honest and above corruption, and that it condemns any person that sullies its good name and reputation.

Let us ask ourselves if there is no instance of wrongdoing in the private sector. Should people in glass houses throw stones? Should the critics not perhaps remember that when one points a finger, one has three other fingers pointing at oneself. Whilst not in any way reflecting on any of the work of the commissions currently producing evidence regarding certain matters, can one say that the R2 million under-the-table donation for sweeties by a certain prominent businessman constitutes proper and rightful conduct?

I think it is high time someone brought a little perspective into the argument and the question of so-called taxpayers’ money is not really the deciding factor. The private sector already gets its income from the same taxpayer.

We are inordinately proud of our Public Service and of the record of expertise it has established. Public servants have been asked time and again to make sacrifices in the national interest as regards pay increments. They have done so, setting an example which regrettably has not been followed by the private sector.

The recent pay increases have brought welcome relief, and of course we shall have to accept the fact that increases will be necessary in the future, for we cannot expect public servants to live on the smell of an oil rag.

Gone are the days when one went into the Public Service if one did not have a career. Today’s public servant is a career man and proud of it. He serves a nation the needs of which are becoming more complex every year. He must acquire skills which his counterpart in the private sector shrugs off as unnecessary. He also pays taxes and his perks are not, as the newspapers sometimes make out, greater than those in most sections of the private sector. Quite the contrary is the case.

Our Public Service corps consists of dedicated people who, despite many financial blandishments, have not abandoned the people they serve and trekked into the private sector. They are all deserving of our recognition and thanks.

To mount a witch-hunt against the corps because of a few black sheep is disgraceful. I agree that vigilance must be exercised at all times to prevent the misuse of public funds. Yet I am equally certain that our entire Public Service corps can hold up its head with pride.

I support the Bill and I wish all hon members a happy and peaceful Easter.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Yeoville referred to the CP as the “dustbin party” in the politics of South Africa. I see the hon member is not here at the moment. I think he is rummaging around in the dustbins. One usually judges the behaviour of others by one’s own.

Order! I have problems with the insinuation that hon members of this House are rummaging around in dustbins. I ask myself whether the hon member for Carletonville would like it if that were to be said of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. If the hon member for Carletonville can say it of another hon member, anyone may in turn say it of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. The hon member must withdraw it.

I withdraw it, Sir.

Then I also want to refer to the hon member for Kuruman. [Interjections.] He referred to my hon leader and said he was never in this House. If the hon member was in this House more regularly and remained awake more often, he would have noticed that my hon leader is in this House far more regularly than he is. He is not in this House at the moment. He probably went to read Rooi Jan and galloped off on his horse to look for something. [Interjections.]

I want to refer to paragraph 2.3, on page 10 of the explanatory memorandum, where reference is made to the Government Gazette of 4 November 1988, in which it was announced that public resorts were now being assigned to the Minister of the Budget and Works. A great deal has been said this week about open parks and closed parks and about what is not open and not closed either. Now we are delighted to see that the public resorts have been transferred to the Administration: House of Assembly and are in future going to be regarded as a White affair.

The resorts that have been transferred are the Rob Ferreira, the “Eiland”, Tshipise, Loskop Dam, the Sybrandt van Niekerk, the F A Odendaal, Kareekloof, Heidelbergkloof, Warmbaths and Badplaas.

And the Arrie Paulus!

Yes, the Arrie Paulus too!

Now we hope we are not going to find the same thing happening with these resorts that we found happening with Windmill Park. The Nationalists there were assured that Windmill Park was going to be reserved for the Whites, but within six months the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council changed direction and declared it to be a possible free settlement area. Now we are hoping that the same thing does not happen with these White holiday resorts, ie that these too will within a short period of time be declared mixed and removed from White affairs.

I want to refer to the Badplaas holiday resort. Badplaas in fact has an important history. The late Pres Kruger gave it to the Whites, but it is possible that pressure can be exerted on the NP to change direction. We can only hope that they are going to retain Badplaas as an own affair in future, but we cannot accept their word that this will continue to be the case.

Mr Chairman, is the hon member prepared to reply to a question.

No. He can ask his question in George, where they also have open and closed beaches.

What is significant about this report is that at the present moment it is only in the Transvaal that there are White holiday resorts to which Whites can go. I do not know whether the impression I got or the conclusion I drew was wrong. I get the impression that the other three provinces are so liberally orientated that they are not going to receive holiday resorts that have been reserved for Whites only. I want to make an appeal to the hon the Minister to see whether, in these provinces, it is not possible to open holiday resorts which can be enjoyed by Whites only, and where only the Whites can go on holiday.

When a person speaks in favour of the preservation of the future of the Whites people always look down on him. I hope that the NP is not going to water down this White own affair, which is the responsibility of this House of Assembly, as it has watered down its entire political policy and everything of the past. I want to put it in this way to hon members today: After having listened this week to various speakers in this House, they must agree with me that when they became Nationalists, certain of those hon members would not have been welcome in the NP.

Mr Chairman, later, if I have the time, I should like to react to the hon member for Carletonville and also the hon member for Brits. In the meantime I should like to carry on with something better and refer to the Vote of the hon the Minister, which now consists of the Budget and Works. I should like to express a few thoughts on the Works component.

The importance of this department is realised when one examines the necessity for the accommodation in which the various branches of the department within the Administration: House of Assembly are housed not only to be adequate and well maintained but also for it to be upgraded to comply with the latest requirements and demands of the time in the area of research and training. The task of this department is very comprehensive if one considers the object as defined by the department itself, and also its programme prescription. I do not want to bore hon members by presenting it to them, but it is a good thing to look at it and read it again.

During the past and preceding years various projects of great significance, particularly to research in the agricultural sphere, have been proceeded with. In this connection I should like to refer to a few of these projects.

In the first place I want to refer to the Glen Agricultural College near Bloemfontein, at which additional administrative buildings and hostels are being constructed. At Onderstepoort outside Pretoria, there is a veterinarian research institute. In the same way there is a horticultural research institute at Roodeplaat. There are many others to which I cannot refer now.

It is also of value to refer to work that is being done at the Constantia Special School in regard to the upgrading of buildings, to the Alexandra Care and Rehabilitation Centre and also to the construction of a rehabilitation centre in Port Elizabeth. I have referred to a few projects in passing. The hon the Minister and his officials deserve the highest praise and appreciation from us for the wonderful work they have done in spite of being handicapped by a lack of the necessary funds. The position in respect of funds appears to be so drastic that it will only be possible to proceed with building projects in respect of which tenders had already been received in August 1988.

It is important and probably essential that new projects should be initiated from time to time. What to my mind is of greater importance, however, is that existing buildings must be maintained and regularly renovated to such an extent that any curtailment of funds may not have the result that work stands over from the previous year and accumulates and a heavy backlog is built up in this way.

My plea is therefore that we shall have to find funds today, because surely precaution is better than replacement. I think we already have the problem that some building complexes have deteriorated to such an extent that one will have to proceed to renovate them completely.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I think the hon member is dealing with Works and we are dealing with Votes 5 and 6. The one is Budgetary and Auxiliary Services and the other is Improvement of Conditions of Service.

Order! I shall listen carefully to the hon member. The hon member may proceed.

I also think we shall have to give more attention to …

Order! I notice that we are dealing with Auxiliary Services, Works and Improvement of Conditions of Service. The hon member may proceed. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I am not selling houses. [Interjections.] I am referring here to dwelling units, of which 550 are official dwelling units. Some of these 550 dwelling units are already more than 50 years old, and today I want to advocate that it should be made possible for the department to carry out maintenance in respect of all the State buildings, and also the dwelling units, on a very regular basis, say every five years, according to a properly planned programme. They can only do this if sufficient funds are provided.

In the second place it is also important to me that these old buildings, many of which are also of cultural-historic importance, should be systematically maintained so that they are not lost to posterity.

Order! I see there is a typing error on the document before me. The House is not dealing with the Works Vote. It is very clear that we are dealing with the Votes as printed on the Order Paper. The hon member must please come back to the Votes under discussion. [Interjections.]

Thank you, Sir. Actually I am dealing with Conditions of Service when I ask for these houses to be renovated. These are important to the officials who are living in those houses and dwelling units. [Interjections.] That is why I am asking for these houses to be improved and looked after.

I said that I would like to come back to the hon member for Carletonville and the hon member for Brits. I listened to them this morning, particularly to the hon member for Carletonville. I just want to ask that hon member something, and I want to tell him that I am just as fond as he is of what is my own. [Interjections.] I also want to ask the hon member who is shouting out interjections to take a look in the mirror; then he will know what the big hole of Kimberley looks like.

I am just as fond as he is of what is my own. I am just asking him today to stop professing that he is the only person who cares about the rights and aspirations of the Whites. For that reason alone I want to ask him to stop creating a caricature. Please keep people in check, so that they do not arrive there at our monuments, which are also sacred to us, and make us, as Whites, look ridiculous. [Time expired.]

Order! Before I call upon the hon member for Pinelands to speak, I just want to make one point clear.

Apparently there has been a misunderstanding somewhere, because on the speakers’ list before me it says “Budgetary and Auxiliary Services, Works and Improvement of Conditions of Service”. It may therefore be possible that the Whips agreed to this. The fact of the matter is, however, that no mention is made of “Works” on the Order Paper. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I would like to deal with certain aspects of the financing of this administration, particularly flowing from the abolition of the divisional councils. Page 105 of the Report on Local Government, Housing and Works refers to this matter and states:

Divisional councils were unique to the Cape Province, and I had the pleasure of serving on the Divisional Council of the Cape, the oldest local authority in our country. Its abolition was a break in a long-established tradition and represented the end of an era. The council had, during its lifetime, developed into a local authority of some note. It had an imposing head office here in Wale Street, Cape Town, which is now serving as the headquarters of the RSC which has assumed many of the divisional council’s functions.

Furthermore it had a large workshop in the northern suburbs which served the technical needs of the council, and it operated from a number of other premises, not least of which was the traffic department in Ottery. It had a large staff infrastructure including many professional staff well trained in the affairs of local government, and furthermore it had a large rating base for funding its operations. This included White local areas about which I would like to say more in a moment, a number of so-called Coloured areas and the entire municipal area of Cape Town. The latter was rated for services and infrastructure which had been provided by the divisional council over many years. Therefore, at the time of its demise, the Divisional Council of the Cape comprised a significant investment in fixed and current operating assets, a staff infrastructure and a large rating base.

In the interests of determining the cost effectiveness of local government it is important to evaluate what has happened to the staff, the assets and other infrastructure which formerly belonged to the divisional council. I understand that staff and assets have in the main been transferred to the regional services council, which has continued to provide many of the services previously provided by the divisional council. When the RSC was first mooted it was intended to be largely an administrative body requiring very little infrastructure of its own. This has clearly not been the case. Now, in addition to services provided by the RSC, local councils have been formed, rural councils are to be formed and there is to be an overall controlling body to be formed in terms of a Local Government Affairs Council Bill (House of Assembly). The local and rural councils are to deal with White own affairs only so one can only assume that similar institutions will be created for so-called Coloured and Indian people.

From this I must assume that the cost of these functions to the ratepayers will escalate enormously. I suggest that some of these costs are at the present interim stage not being borne by the ratepayers, but by the taxpayers at large via the budget of this administration. I would appreciate some clarity from this hon Minister on these aspects of financing local government in this province. I furthermore assume that similar anomalies must exist in the other provinces.

I believe it must be possible to determine clearly what the costs of local government now are, and to compare these with what they would have been under the former dispensation. Is my contention correct that activities are duplicated and that costs have escalated dramatically? Or are savings which we are unaware of accruing to ratepayers through the more efficient provision of services? Regrettably, I suspect the former.

Program 3 of Vote 4 indicates an amount of R3,8 million which is to be spent on current expenditure of local areas plus contributions to rural councils, capital projects and administration. I would like to know how that expenditure is made up. If it is to meet a deficit, as I presume it is, are similar deficits being financed by, say, the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates?

There have been many changes in local government structures. I believe that ratepayers are now owed a detailed explanation of what the costs of such changes have been and how they will affect their pockets in terms of more or less rates payable.

Another matter I wish to deal with briefly is that of Government property situated in local government areas. I understand that full municipal rates are now being paid on these properties. I was therefore particularly interested in a point made on page 59 of the Report on Local Government, Housing and Works, and I quote:

Clearly one advantage flowing from the rating of State properties has been an incentive to dispose of those not required. I welcome these moves.

Furthermore, I am pleased to note the efforts of this administration in preserving and maintaining buildings of cultural-historic value. Mistakes have been made in the past where buildings, particularly in this city, have been destroyed in the face of urban renewal and development. The attitude of this administration is worthy of praise in this regard.

The final point I wish to deal with is that of deregulation and local authorities’ responsibilities in this regard. Firstly, it is acknowledged that there must be equal opportunity for all South Africans in all facets of life and certainly as far as trading is concerned. I understand some 100 CBDs have now been opened but I once again make the plea that all should be opened.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I do not see what the opening of CBDs has to do with either Vote 5 or Vote 6. I respectfully draw your attention to the fact that the hon member is talking about Works again when you have already ruled that the hon member may not.

Order! The hon member must connect his argument more closely to the Votes under discussion.

Mr Chairman, the connection clearly is that I am dealing with the Vote of the hon the Minister. It is concerned with the budget and the financing of own affairs and local authorities, which is the issue which I am addressing here. The issue which I am about to get onto is the question of licensing fees which I think falls under the hon the Minister’s budgetary and auxiliary services.

Order! It may relate to the hon the Minister’s budgetary services. The hon member may continue.

Mr Chairman, my final point is that one of the sources of revenue to local authorities is in fact licensing fees. These must be drastically lowered or done away with where possible in order to allow free entry to economic activity. Similarly, regulations, particularly those on local authorities, need to be eased in order to allow for the establishment of industry hives.

I believe this administration can have a significant influence on local authorities in this regard. The hon the Minister should do all in his power to ensure that local authorities do not impede economic activity. In fact they should be pro-active in allowing the informal economic sector to develop as herein lies the potential for future economic development in our country.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow the hon member for Pinelands.

A previous speaker talked about marriage officers. If one looks at the coming marriage which is to occur in this House, I would like to put in a special plea for the hon member for Claremont. Although he has applied to join the new Democratic Party it seems as though they are not very keen to have him. [Interjections.] I really would like to recommend to them that the hon member for Claremont would be an excellent speaker on their behalf not only on the own affairs budget but also on law and order. Unfortunately, I believe that the hon member has a problem and that is that the hon member for Cape Town Gardens is already squatting in his seat. He is already looking for …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I wonder whether you will ask the hon member where in the budget mention is made of the hon member for Claremont and the hon member for Cape Town Gardens.

I allow a little bit of leeway at the beginning of a speech. The hon member for Wynberg may continue.

I was referring to the payment for marriage licences—people who are issued with marriage licences. [Interjections.]

Coming back to the budget, I would like to raise the point of the building on Church Square that was recently acquired by the hon the Minister, namely the National Mutual Building which is now going to house the National Cultural History Museum. This building was originally built by Sir Herbert Baker. There was a Herbert Baker building on the site.

Where is Sir Herbert Baker in this Vote?

Later, in about 1931, the site was consolidated and added to by a magistrate’s office and the property owned by one James Britten. The architect at that stage was John Perry with an associate, Delbridge. This architectural firm later became Percy Lightfoot, after that Lightfoot, Twentyman-Jones and Kent, and after that Kent, Miszewski and Hockley. This was the firm that was later to build the Nico Malan Opera House.

There is a story about this building with its lovely granite facade, marble interiors, bronze window-frames, bronze doors and teak interior. The original contractor, a German called Hoheisen, was inspecting the final building when a workman dropped a six pound hammer onto the marble steps. As the hammer bounced down it took a bit of marble out of each step. The old German was so frustrated on seeing this that he threw his hat to the ground and proceeded to jump on it.

Church Square is an area of great historic value to Cape Town. Next door to this building is the old site which we know as the Civil Service Club. This was the original home of Dr John Phillip and in those days was known as the Mission House. It was from here that Dr Moffat was to proceed to Kuruman on his famous mission to the Bechuanas. It was also here where Dr Livingstone spent his first night in Africa.

It subsequently became the Civil Service Club. I think many hon members here will still remember with affection the old club, with the men’s section on the right-hand side and the ladies’ section on the left-hand side, and that there was very strict apartheid between the two sexes at the club. There were also certain members who did not believe in miscegenation. I think one of the tragedies of the club was that it had a very famous Victorian water closet, with flowers emblazoned on the pottery. Unfortunately, however, this was destroyed in the name of progress, and replaced by a modern contrivance. [Interjections.]

Another interesting thing about Church Square is that it does go back a long way in our history. We have there the statue of Onze Jan Hofmeyr, and few possibly realise that the Old Supreme Court was once a slave lodge, and that original sales of slaves occurred under a large oak tree, the remains of which are still to be seen on the traffic island in Spin Street, where a plaque was erected to commemorate this fact.

The other building of great noteworthiness on Church Square is of course the Groote Kerk, a church which was built soon after the arrival of the early Dutch settlers. It was later rebuilt by the famous trio, the architect Louis Thibault, the sculptor Anton Anreith and the master builder Schutte.

I believe therefore that it is of great value to our cultural heritage that this building has been acquired by the hon the Minister’s department. I should like to commend him for it and to encourage him to help preserve buildings of interest for posterity.

Mr Chairman, I should like to deal with a number of matters relevant to this Vote which should be of concern to the hon the Minister.

I realise that responsibility for the ministerial representatives has been removed from this Vote to Vote No 1. I would nevertheless like to hear from the hon the Minister how these ministerial assistants have performed while under his care. The hon the Minister will know that an amount of R1,798 million has been budgeted for for these six gentlemen, which, according to my arithmetic, means that we are spending just on R300 000 per year on each of them.

There is nothing in the estimates to show us how much of this sum is being spent on their salaries, their car allowances, their housing subsidies and their secretarial and other allowances, but whatever the breakdown, each one of these ministerial assistants is costing the taxpayer R300 000 a year, and I should like to know what they do to earn their keep.

The gentlemen appointed to these posts, which, if I recall correctly, were specially created for them, were all former NP provincial councillors, party organisers or loyal party supporters. There was no indication that they were selected to assist our Ministers because they possessed particular skills or expertise in specific fields. Although I have noticed some of these gentlemen sitting in the public gallery from time to time watching the proceedings in this House, I am not aware of the other governmental, as opposed to party-political functions, they perform; neither do I know why the Ministers who previously performed these functions were no longer able to do their jobs. One would have thought that with the spreading of the workload of Government into three separate own affairs departments, so that we now have three Ministers doing the job previously done by one, each Minister would have plenty of time to do his job, take his holidays, go on hunting trips and do all the other things which Ministers have to do.

They could even have gone fishing as well! [Interjections.]

Yes, I am sure. One would have thought they would have the time to do all that. I must therefore ask this hon Minister what additional functions were created which require the taxpayer to pay an additional R2 million a year for 1 these six ministerial assistants. This is more than three times the amount that Government has to spend on the elected members of this House. I do not quite know what the justification is but I am quite sure that the hon the Minister will be able to help us in this regard.

He’ll have an answer!

I also notice from the programme description on this Vote that the hon the Minister is responsible for aspects of the administration of the Electoral Act. It says that the hon the Minister is responsible for services to the citizens in respect of the Electoral Act. I would like to know from the hon the Minister—I am sure the citizens would also like to know—how far the delimitation has progressed, when this delimitation commission will be convened and when it is anticipated that the delimitation will be completed.

I think that this should be of particular interest to the hon the Minister himself and also to those hon members in his caucus who are in the F W de Klerk camp because we understand that this camp is keen on an early election. From my understanding of the matter, the only stumbling block in the way of an early election would appear to be the obstinacy of the hon the State President who has stated categorically that he cannot call an early election because the Budget has to be dealt with and there has to be a delimitation. [Interjections.] He said it was impossible to have an election this year because these two matters had to be dealt with.

Quite clearly the budget should be sorted out by approximately June of this year. From what I understand of our programme of activities here, the budget will be disposed of by the end of June and if the delimitation can be completed soon thereafter then the hon NP leader could approach the hon the State President and ask him for an early election and the hon the State President could, without losing face, reverse his decision. [Interjections.] Once the hon the State President can say that the reasons why he has delayed calling the election have fallen away, he can—without losing face—possibly have an election in August, September or October. If the members on that side of the House want this to happen, it seems to be the obvious thing to do.

I notice that the hon the Minister—if the hon the Minister has the opportunity to possibly listen to me I will address him on this score—or his department is being used to take under its umbrella the facade of administering public resorts in the Transvaal. I will explain why I consider this to be a facade. These resorts in the Transvaal have always been reserved for the exclusive use of the Whites. These resorts were previously administered by the Transvaal Provincial Administration, as were similar resorts in the other provinces, in the Cape Province particularly.

The problem which arose under the new constitutional dispensation, when the old-style provincial councils were abolished, was that the new-style provincial administrations were henceforth to become non-race bodies administering the affairs of each province for the benefit of all without differentiation on the grounds of race. In order to achieve this there were a number of nominal Black, Coloured and Indian MECs co-opted to the executive councils. The hypocrisy of this juggling is of course patently exposed by the fact that provincial administrations have taken over functions such as Black administration, development and housing which by definition is are racial functions. They are also responsible for administering and granting permits under the Group Areas Act which is probably still the most racially divisive piece of legislation on our Statute Book.

The facade of saying that provinces are now non-racial is therefore now clearly exposed but the problem of holiday resorts was that all of these resorts have been and still are reserved exclusively for the use of specific race groups, most of them for Whites. The logic is that if Whites are entitled to live in exclusive group areas—if that is one of their so-called rights which must not be infringed—then obviously it would be too much to expect of them to spend their holidays at resorts which are open to all races where children mix freely, camping and caravan sites are in close proximity to one another and where these resorts even have communal ablution blocks. Hon members on that side of the House can clearly not be expected to subject their White constituents to such unpalatable contacts with people of colour!

In order to overcome this problem fictional responsibility for administering the public resorts under the Transvaal provincial ordinance and also those in the Cape has been transferred to this House, thereby bringing it within the ambit of White own affairs. The fiction is exposed by the fact that only a nominal sum of R1 000, as a grant-in-aid to the Transvaal Board of Public Resorts, is provided for in this budget. All other finances in terms of revenue and expenditure are dealt with by the Transvaal Provincial Administration, which continues to run and manage the resorts on a racially exclusive basis.

I would be interested to know from the hon the Minister whether he actually believes that this fiction is being fulfilled, whether he believes that his department is running these resorts as a White own affair and whether, in his opinion, our public resorts should in fact remain segregated. Does he actually believe that apartheid should still be applied in the running of these resorts?

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Groote Schuur made some spurious allegations in regard to the appointment of ministerial representatives. I do not want to answer all the allegations, but I want to point out that some of these representatives are eminently qualified to hold their positions. I want to refer to Dr Van der Walt who holds a legal degree, Dr Rina Venter who is a social worker of repute, and Tom Gunning who is a qualified civil engineer. [Interjections.] I am sure that their positions are eminently relevant to the posts they hold.

I do not want to answer now on the political allegations about the administration of resorts, as I would rather point out some aspects of the history of the Orange Free State.

*In his main budget speech, the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works of the Administration: House of Assembly referred to Programme 1 of Vote 5—Budgetary and Auxiliary Services—which states that a nominal provision of only R2 000 has been allocated for the 1989-90 financial year. He then pointed out that the public resorts of the Transvaal had already been transferred and that those under the provincial administrations of the Free State and the Cape were being transferred to the Administration: House of Assembly at present. In this way a budgetary mechanism was created for further funding, also of the Free State resorts. The resorts that are affected by this, and which are being transferred at present, along with other resorts, are the Maselspoort Dam, outside Bloemfontein, which was visited by 117 358 people during 1987-88, the Jim Fouché fishing and holiday resort, the Allemanskraal Dam, the Willem Pretorius Nature Reserve and the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam. The latter is the largest of our resorts, and I should like to begin with it.

The largest river in South Africa, the Orange River, was named after the Prince of Orange by Colonel Robert Gordon, officer commanding of the Cape garrison, in 1779. The development of the Orange River project was commenced during the seventies. The longest tunnel of its kind was built, viz the Orange-Fish Tunnel, which is 82,5 kilometres long. The dam comprises the country’s largest section of inland water, and the wall of 914 metres is the second longest dam wall on the continent of Africa. A power station has been developed alongside this dam. In addition it is surrounded by nature reserves.

The Willem Pretorius Nature Reserve—rich in water and indigenous white stinkwood trees—is next to the Allemanskraal Dam. In addition to a bowling green, a golf course, tent camping facilities, caravan stands and chalets, the resort also has a lovely restaurant for Christmas and New Year festivities or any other occasions. At certain times of the year excellent venison pies are sold there. A variety of wild animals are found in the region surrounding the resort, and most kinds of buck, zebras, black wildebees, baboons and giraffes are among the animals that can be found at both these resorts.

No matter where in the country one wants to travel to, one has to go through the Free State, but these water resorts in the Free State are wonderful destinations too. They are paradises for water sport enthusiasts. The Free State water resorts provide wonderful opportunities for holidays with numerous surprises. At the Jim Fouché resort one can hire horses and ponies, which keep the children and infants as good as gold for days on end, while their parents have a lovely rest.

The Free State sky, filled with white cumulous clouds with rays of brilliant sunshine filtering through, is bright blue above one. These resorts are a feather in the cap of the Free State Provincial Council, which initially developed the resorts and went to a lot of trouble reestablish the animal life. It is a pleasure to recommend these resorts and to express the hope that they will show further development in future. It is exciting to know that at the same time provision has been made for our agricultural needs, because we are the largest agricultural province.

The hon member for Carletonville tried to make petty political capital out of this debate, but I should like to ask him a question about Carletonville.

The hon member knows we are dealing with a budget debate at the moment, and that is a factual matter. Figures talk, and it would be exceptionally interesting to see what becomes of the lawsuit instituted against the CP-controlled White town council by businessmen. According to a report in yesterday’s edition of Die Burger, the turnover of approximately one third of the 170 enterprises which took part in the survey made by the chamber, has dropped by between 80% and 100%. A total of 252 people have already lost their jobs, and another 60 may lose their jobs shortly. I should like the Official Opposition to tell us how the situation concerning the inhabitants of Carletonville, who are still living in the town, could have changed to that extent. They got on well and lived together in harmony before a municipal election took place and the 10 CP town council members were appointed there. South Africa has not changed, but the town council of Carletonville has.

This lawsuit is a case which the CP has little chance of winning. If the CP should win the court case, must they continue to disrupt race relations? Must the town lose revenue? Should the CP lose the court case, the town council may have the problem of having to defray the legal expenses. Is the CP going to help the town council out of its difficulties, or will the individual council members be expected to accept responsibility for this?

What those of us on this side of the House see is that the figures do not tally, as do those in this budget that is being debated at present, and that is why I should like to support this legislation.

Mr Chairman, I listened to the hon nominated member with great interest, particularly on her speech concerning certain public resorts in the Orange Free State because all that I understand has been done, is that the hon the Minister has taken over the resorts in terms of the Transvaal Public Resorts Ordinance. If I am wrong, I hope that he will correct me but I must tell the hon members that I am very pleased as a Transvaler that we control the resorts of the Orange Free State as well.

I must tell the hon members that it is to my mind a classic situation which the hon member has illustrated that resorts such as those she has mentioned are kept for the exclusive use of one section of the population only. To my mind, the more one shows how wonderful these resorts are in South Africa—and she referred to the ones in the Free State which really have nothing to do with this Vote at all but that does not matter—the more the discriminatory action on the part of the Government becomes apparent. With great respect, I have to say that that is something which we cannot ignore.

As you know, Sir, I tried to obtain a copy of a report containing information and statistics relating to an earlier debate on another Vote. I have here a most remarkable brochure entitled “Administration: House of Assembly”. I would like to ask the hon the Minister what it cost, because it contains absolutely no information of any consequence or use to anyone at all. What is interesting, besides the fact that it is published by the Administration: House of Assembly—I would certainly like to know for what reason—is that it states the following: “Production and design by the Directorate of Agricultural Information”. I wonder why the Directorate of Agricultural Information produced this brochure.

It is a lot of manure!

No, the hon member is not allowed to use such words in this House; they are unparliamentary.

On the same page we read that it was “printed by Promedia Publications for the Government Printer”. In other words it was not printed by the Government Printer himself.

I am also fascinated, on looking through this, to find a collection of the most lovely colour photographs which are utterly irrelevant to the work we perform. They would be very attractive as postcards if they could be sold at a profit.

What is also interesting about this brochure is that it is considered necessary to quote in Latin in order to demonstrate certain things. Obviously the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services also uses a Latin phrase: Ex consilio pro populo. In the light of what is done in regard to public resorts and the discrimination involved in that issue, this is about the most inappropriate Latin quotation that I could have imagined.

The Latin phrase is not even correct.

Whatever the case may be, that phrase was selected. I am prepared to bow to that hon member’s superior knowledge of the Latin language. Unfortunately, I suffer under a handicap as far as that language is concerned. If, however, I accept the translation provided as correct, the phrase means “From the Assembly for the people”. This department is not from the Assembly for the people. It is from the Assembly for the White people only. That is the truth. To come up with this slogan and seek to project such an image to the readers of this brochure is, to my mind, almost an impertinence. To incur costs for this kind of activity is, to my mind, completely unjustified.

There are three other things which I want to deal with. The first is the question of salaries. The hon the Minister sought to explain that the large number of people who receive less than R2 000 per annum are in fact all part-time employees. I find it remarkable that so many people are employed part-time in the administration. If that is the case, we are being told that no less than 4 371 people are employed on a part-time basis or as casual employees. I wonder whether that is correct.

The second and more important matter is that there is no real explanation in regard to the people who earn R500 a month and less. I would like to suggest to the hon the Minister—this is clearly within the purview of his function—that when we deal with salary increases we should look at the lower levels of income and seek to raise them, because those people seem to be in greater need of attention than those at higher levels.

When we look at the packages which are available at the top of the scale, we see that they compete with anything in the private sector. You have a situation where the package at the very top is worth approximately a quarter of a million rand. There are not many people in the private sector who earn a quarter of a million rand a year as a package. Surely, when we look at salaries, the people we should be looking at are those in the lower echelons and we should be seeking to help them.

The second point I want to raise is the hon the Minister’s policy in regard to privatization and the activities and affairs of the House of Assembly. What does he seek to privatize? What does he seek to do?

There is a view being expressed that, for example, more and more schools should be allowed to become private schools in order to perhaps perpetuate the concept of the culture which is part of the tradition of that particular school. I would like to know from the hon Minister whether there are such plans afoot in regard to the privatization of schools and, if so, on what basis. I would like to know what the hon the Minister’s attitude is towards the privatization of hospital services and I think he should make a statement in relation to that.

I want to deal with the question of the allocation of functions. I have tried to compare—I have them in front of me—the estimates of previous years with the estimates which are now before us. I think at some stage we need to be told what is still going to be transferred from general affairs to the House of Assembly. What is going to remain with the House of Assembly and not be transferred out? What is in fact the eventual structure that we are looking at in regard to the various own affairs administrations? Every year we get a little more. I think we need to get a picture as to what is eventually going to be here, because the schedule to the Constitution is, in many respects, “more honour’d in the breach than the observance”. I think that we are entitled to know where the own affairs administration is eventually going to be.

Lastly, I want to come back to the question of revenue. I ask the hon the Minister if he could look at a number of features which to some extent concern one. Under the heading “Interest and dividends” on page v under “Pedagogy”, there is a decrease in revenue of R263 000. Why should there be a decrease in that revenue under these circumstances? On the same page, there is a decrease in revenue in respect of “capital and redemption on loans” and “other advances” under the heading “Recovery of loans and advances”. If we look at a whole series of these things—take “patient fees” for instance—despite the fact that hospital fees have gone up there is a decrease in revenue of close to R400 000. In respect of “boarding and lodging”. there is a decrease in revenue of R2,254 million. I think that somewhere along the line we should get some explanation in relation to this.

Lastly, may I just make the point that I do not blame anybody for being confused about what department falls under the hon the Minister, because if I refer to the explanatory memorandum, it describes, on page 10, paragraph 2.3, the hon the Minister as the Minister of the Budget and Works. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Yeoville must forgive me if I do not react directly to what he said. I should like to deal with another aspect, namely Church Square.

Church Square originated in 1854—thanks to the needs of a congregation which came into being in Pretoria. Originally Church Square was the centre of activity in Pretoria. It was not only a place where church services and holy communion were held, but was also a centre for business and entertainment. Later, when the Raadsaal and the Palace of Justice were built in the time of the old Transvaal Republic, it also became the focal point of political power. The square was preeminently a market where a great deal of business activity and the like took place throughout the week. In due course, owing to the objections by the church and the congregation to the business activities on Church Square, in the eighteen eighties the business activities and the market were moved elsewhere in Pretoria.

In this century, as was the case in the last century, a large variety of activities have taken place on the square, and in a certain sense it still remains the focal point of community life in Pretoria. After Church Square had been given a different appearance in the second decade of this century and the statue of Pres Kruger was moved from Pretoria Station to the middle of the square in 1954 …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: With all due respect, you have already ruled that Works may not be included in the discussion of these two Votes. I submit that if this speech deals with Works, it is out of order.

Order! This is the point the hon member is now making. He says that if this speech deals with Works it is out of order. I agree with that. The question is whether it is dealing with Works. The hon member has not got far enough into his speech for me to give a ruling on this. The hon member may proceed.

The fact is that Church Square is still an important place in the daily life of Pretoria today. In 1961 a special event took place on Church Square, namely the investiture of the new State President. I should like to quote the editor of Die Transvaler, who wrote the following on 13 June 1961:

As a geographic and historic centre Church Square therefore affords not only the city but also the country as a whole tremendous possibilities. For that reason it is the duty of the Government, the city fathers of Pretoria and the private sector to utilise and elaborate on these possibilities which Church Square affords, not only for the city itself, but also for the sake of our country in general, and to develop it as a useful ornament for future generations.

Nowadays Church Square is viewed as little more than a large traffic circle, around which a number of buses and bus stops are situated. Although Church Square is fairly large, the buses definitely have an adverse effect on the appearance and the surrounding building facades of Church Square, which are interesting and full of character. In spite of creating the impression of a busy city centre, largely as a result of the volume of traffic in Pretoria, an increasing number of people are avoiding the focal point of Pretoria. Generally speaking therefore the focal point at this moment is anything but healthy.

As the capital of the Republic of South Africa Pretoria’s status and image … [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The Chair has already ruled that Works may not be discussed in the discussion of Votes 5 and 6, because this does not fall within the framework of the Votes under discussion. I suggest that you rule that the hon member is talking about Works and that his present speech is not in order. [Interjections.]

Order! I am dealing with the point of order. The hon member must resume his seat. We are dealing here with the rendering of financial and administrative services by the relevant department, the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services. I shall listen to the hon member for Pretoria Central. Meanwhile he may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. I understand the nervousness of the hon member for Losberg, because he is trying to escape something here. The fact is that he does not want us to make the figures known to the public and show that this NP Government is concentrating on saving money. [Interjections.] While we are saving money in South Africa the CP, on the instructions of the hon member for Middelburg, is publishing reports and advertisements in their Patriot newspaper, contrary to specific rules. It is taxpayers’ money that they … [Interjections.]

Order! When the Chair calls for order then there must be order!

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I submit that what the hon member has just said is again out of order.

Order! I have not yet heard what the theme of the hon member for Pretoria Central’s speech is. The hon member may proceed. I merely want to point out again that we have a definite ruling that we must keep to the Vote under discussion, and the hon member for Pretoria Central must comply with this.

Thank you, Sir. With all due respect to the Chair I merely want to point out that when we talk about Church Square in Pretoria, it is a very important part of South Africa. As a matter of fact it is the focal point of many historic events in South Africa, and I think it is a good thing for one to discuss its history and specifically consider what the role of the Administration: House of Assembly is, which is now going to be fulfilled as regards Church Square. We must also consider what contribution it makes towards allowing Church Square to take its rightful place again, not only in Pretoria but also in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, for that reason I want to appeal to you to fall in with my wishes, because as the capital of South Africa Pretoria’s status and image in the outside world is also in jeopardy. Although the natural attractiveness of the city’s typography and buildings outside the central business area has, in the past, given Pretoria the reputation of being one of the more attractive cities in the world, this reputation can suffer irreparable harm if its centre, of which Church Square forms such an important component, deteriorates further. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I thank all the hon members who took part in this debate. At the outset I want to convey my sincere thanks to the staff of the Ministry, who prepared all the information we have before us, for their very good and efficient work. It is true that some of the reports were not quite ready, but hon members are aware that some of the debates were advanced.

I want to react immediately to the hon member for Losberg’s remark and remind him that the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council was not here on the Thursday on which the budget speech was made, and that he had apologised. That hon member should know that the debate had been scheduled for the Monday, but Parliament had problems and came to us to ask whether we could not advance the debate. In order to assist Parliament in its proceedings, we agreed to do so, even though it was inconvenient.

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council agreed months ago to make the opening speech at the inauguration of the new teachers’ training college in Pretoria. He was there, and he was in a dilemma. What should he do? Should he be there, or here? I made it easy for him and told him we would quite understand if he could not be here, and would look forward to having him with us on the Friday. He was here with us for almost the whole of that Friday, and he made a speech lasting 30 minutes—the longest speech that was made that day. These are the facts. Consequently I do not think the hon member should make such a fuss about it now.

†Before I answer hon members individually I would like to say for the record that in this Vote we have a net increase and our Vote is R6,341 million, which is a 29,2% increase. The explanation is that the net increase of R6,341 million can be ascribed mainly to the announced general salary increases, certain occupational specific improvements, essential extensions and the escalation of continuation costs. The personnel expenditure was R3,699 million; the administration expenses were R1,252 million, which was mainly due to a rise in the postal fees; the professional and special services was R1,259 million—and again there were claims in respect of Government auditing which had to be paid; stores and livestock amounted to R0,377 million; equipment showed a decrease of R2,48 million and the assistance to the board for public resorts was R0,002 million. This is really just an attempt to create an account so that they will be able to look to us for capital expenditure in the future. We must therefore create an account so that this capital expenditure can take place.

The hon member for Yeoville asked where the report of the Auditor-General was. I would like to give the hon member for Yeoville a tip and a very simple answer: Ask the Auditor-General. Do not ask me where the report of the Auditor-General is. If the hon member wants to know where the report of the Auditor-General is he must ask the Auditor-General. It is a very simple matter, and the fact is that I think we can expect that report soon. In my view we will have the fullest opportunity to discuss it, as will the joint committees of Parliament. We will be able to discuss it during the Budget Debate. It is not as if this is the last debate of the session and there is a terrible urgency as to where the report of the Auditor-General is.

It is late because you were late.

That is not true. I want to tell the hon member that we were not late. My information is that all of the 450 reports that we had to submit were submitted on time. I checked that with my department several times. The inference is that somehow there was something wrong with this department.

*I merely want to place something on record. According to the Auditor-General’s report for 1986-87, the most serious criticism that was expressed was aimed at the late submission of the accounts, returns and statements, as well as the fact that the regulations were not complied with. These deficiencies, which arose as a result of certain reasons, did not give rise to the cases of theft or to the losses that were written off during the financial year in question. Nor did this result in the misappropriation of State funds; on the contrary, in no case did an official abuse his position by deviating from the regulations or by enriching himself or his relatives.

†I want to say that it is true that there was some late reporting in the 1986-87 year. The reason for that was that many functions were transferred to us from the provincial authorities and our reports are dependent on information we receive from other people. Because other people were late we were late in reporting, but it was only technical. This year I am happy to report that as far as I know there is no late reporting.

*It emerged in last year’s debate and in the Auditor-General’s report, as hon members are aware, that there are staff shortages, especially in the Finance Directorate of this department. I want to place this on record, because it is important. Only 77% of the posts are filled at present. More than 66% of the staff members are women, whose services cannot be used freely for outside inspection. Despite that, as I indicated last year, we proceeded with a programme of inspection, which the hon member for Rosettenville also mentioned, which has enabled us to visit 109 offices so far this year, in comparison with last year s 86 offices. This was possible because of the in-service training of personnel, not only with regard to management and supervisory training, but also training in respect of specific requirement-orientated financial control. I also mentioned earlier that during the period from 1 April 1988 to 20 February 1989 we issued approximately 1 029 000 Treasury warrants through the Administration: House of Assembly. Of this enormous number of Treasury warrants, there were only eight cases and these Treasury warrants are posted of people who committed fraud with Treasury warrants. Three of these involved officials, and five outside persons. All cases were reported to the SA Police, and appropriate steps were taken against the individuals concerned. We think this is a very good record.

†The hon member for Rosettenville spoke about in-service training. I want to thank her for her very kind remarks and the compliments that we were very pleased to accept. To increase the efficiency of all levels of management in the Administration: House of Assembly and to equip the managers with the necessary competency needed to increase productivity and the effective utilisation of human and other resources, the undermentioned courses and seminars were conducted during 1988 by the training staff of the Directorate: Personnel Administration, which is responsible for the in-service training of all the personnel of the Administration: House of Assembly.

We had 10 senior management courses, 17 officers were trained. Then we had six public management courses, 67 people were trained. We had four middle management courses, 47 officers were trained. We had 28 junior management courses, 345 officers were trained. We had 20 management orientation courses for first level supervisors, 560 were trained. We had 105 seminars on different management aspects—labour relations, personnel evaluation, public speaking etc—and the number of officers trained were 2 707 members of staff. That is how it is done.

It is not easy to perpetuate the same services with the same personnel for less money unless one seeks productivity gains. This administration is absolutely intent upon seeking the maximum levels of efficiency and productivity possible. We will do everything possible within our means to achieve those goals because at the end of the day we are all taxpayers and we spend taxpayers’ money. We are aware of that and we want to spend the money of taxpayers wisely and carefully as if it were our own and provide the services that we render for the minimum amount possible to a level of standard that is acceptable to the general public.

*I now come to the individual hon members who took part in the debate. The hon member for Losberg said we did not regard own affairs as a priority. He must go and read my speeches. Since 1985-86 we have grown by 181%. That amounts to 36% per annum. That is exceptional growth. When one looks at how smoothly this took place, I think it is an achievement, also for the personnel who had the immensely difficult task not only of going through the transition period, but also of having to perform the day-to-day tasks.

He spoke about the improvement in conditions of service and said we had not adjusted increases. Yet he knows that we do not make provision for salary increases. Surely the hon member knows that that happened. Then why is he asking me about this, if he knows these things happen? He knows that the salary increases of 1 January are in our budget, and we also created room for those occupational specific adjustments envisaged by the Commission for Administration in this financial year. He knows that is how it works.

He spoke about the large number of people who had resigned. We share his disquiet.

†We are not happy about people resigning on that scale. That was one of the reasons—if he had listened to the hon the Minister of Finance—the hon the Minister gave as to why we came forward with this urgent salary increase.

You acted too late.

We have enormous constraints upon us. We cannot just act upon impulse. The reason the hon the Minister announced the salary increases in November was for the very reason that that hon member has put here today. That was why the Government made the announcement in November.

*I want to thank the hon member for Rosettenville. She made a very interesting speech about discipline and control.

I want to say the following to the hon member for Yeoville.

†We in this administration, this Treasury and this Ministry stand in a different relationship to the central Government to that of any other administration or House. The reason for this is that we are in the same party. Therefore we have the same programme and therefore the governing party in this House must of necessity be expounding the same policies as the governing party in the central Government. Therefore the priorities we place, the programmes we support and the attitudes we express are those of the central Government of which we form a part. They are our own. There is therefore nothing antagonistic in our relationship with the hon the Minister of Finance. What are our relationships otherwise? Our relationship with the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon Ministers of the Ministers’ Council is exactly the same as that between the hon the Minister of Finance and other members of the hon the State President’s Cabinet, exactly the same! There is no difference.

The hon the Minister of Finance is responsible for the exchequer account, and he is governed by all the Acts which control the exchequer account. I have a revenue account and I am governed by exactly the same control measures. The only difference is that I do not have an income side to my account, while the hon the Minister of Finance does have an income side. Let me rather say our income side is very limited at this stage, and, as the hon member quite correctly stated, there are levies and we could even introduce further levies if we want to. The hon member also said I should make a policy statement in relation to this matter. I should like to do that.

I should like to say only one thing. I do not see that we in this administration can levy imposts upon White members of the community which would amount to an addition to their current tax burden. In other words, the income we receive from levies which we impose should not simply be deducted from whatever amount would constitute the allocation to this administration, because that would then be tantamount to an additional tax upon White people. We must have a level playing field as far as taxes are concerned, and the Income Tax Act is a level playing field for all South Africans. It is certainly true, however, that we are able to and should levy user-charges, fees, levies and so forth, although the revenue derived therefrom should be reflected in higher standards which this community may itself elect to provide.

If we therefore have additional imposts these should be reflected in a higher standard of our services. That is my reply to that hon member. It would be quite wrong if it were done in any other way because it would then simply amount to taxation by stealth. It would also be an additional tax, based on a racial basis, imposed on the community contrary to the policy of this Government.

The hon member also spoke about user-charges. I think I have already replied to that. He made a few statements about the disparity between this administration and the other administrations. Well, he should take that matter up with the hon the Minister of Finance. That is not my business.

*The hon member for Kuruman congratulated us. We thank him very much for that. As usual, he made a well-considered speech.

The hon member for Brits spoke about education. Surely he knows how teachers’ salaries work. He is an expert in that sphere. After all, I listen to him. X am no expert in the sphere of education. In my opinion the hon member for Brits is an esteemed expert. Consequently when he talks about this, he is talking about something he knows well. I am sure that is accepted by everyone. Nevertheless, the hon member knows how teaching salaries are determined. [Interjections.] Oh, he knows? Then why was he scolding me? [Interjections.] Surely that is absurd. [Interjections.] He was insulting the intelligence of hon members of this House. In addition he was detracting from his usually very good and interesting contributions in this connection.

In addition the hon for Brits said he knew that teaching salaries were not dealt with by the FTC; education is financed in terms of a formula.

†The hon member for Cape Town Gardens spoke about a variety of things which again had nothing to do with this Vote. He spoke about housing matters.

*For the sake of the record I merely want to tell the hon member that participants in the interest subsidy scheme for first-time home buyers are in the favourable position of having been granted relief in that subsidy amounts have been adjusted in order to compensate for the aforementioned increases in interest rates. The subsidy on a loan of R40 000 was increased from R145,42 to R173,87 with effect from 1 November 1988, and from R173,87 to R196,51 with effect from 1 February 1989. For the 1988-89 financial year, this relief amounts to increased expenditure of R5,5 million, whereas the corresponding amount for the 1989-90 financial year, R44,6 million, is based on the present growth rate of the scheme. That is merely for the record.

†The hon member for Bezuidenhout made a very fine speech and I wish to thank him for that. We know of his concern and his expertise in the area he spoke on. We are also grateful for his kind remarks to the Public Service.

*The hon member for Carletonville expounded at length about public holiday resorts. He merely wants to conjure up spectres. I want to tell him to go and read what I said when I spoke about this in my opening speech. I said we would not do anything that would affect the traditions of these resorts. If we want to change these traditions in any way, we shall give sustained and careful consideration to the matter. The hon member knows that it is too early to talk about that. He knows that the Transvaal resorts are our responsibility now, the Free State resorts will be in due course, and those in the Cape—I think there is only one here in the Cape, at Keurbooms River—will be transferred to this administration as well. Once everything has been transferred we are going to establish a new board. This board will reflect the new elements that are being transferred to us, and the fact that other provinces are involved will also be reflected in the board’s composition. The new board is going to work out a policy for the way in which it will deal with the whole matter. [Interjections.]

As far as we are concerned, our objective is to proceed with the traditions that are implied in these resorts. We can talk about this later, as soon as we have received everything. The fact of the matter is that the hon member for Carletonville is conjuring up all kinds of spectres in advance. He should find a subject other than racism for a change. Every time he speaks in a debate, he talks about racism. There are so many other fine things that we can talk about.

It is an own affair!

You do not know what you are talking about!

I want to tell the hon member for Carletonville that we are proud of the traditions of those resorts, and we shall protect them like treasures. I can assure the hon member of that.

I thank the hon member for Kimberley North for his speech. He spoke about the importance of maintenance.

†It is true that a stitch in time saves nine. I must tell the hon member that I am actually concerned—this is no reflection on anybody—about the maintenance of some schools that I see around the country. I cannot wait for these functions all to be transferred to us on 1 July when we can seriously look at a way in which to address the problem.

*It is quite true that prevention is better than cure.

The hon member for Pinelands apologised for his absence. He spoke about divisional councils.

†He said goodbye to the Cape Divisional Council here today. It was the wrong Vote. He should have mentioned this under another Vote but there was nothing wrong with what he said. The Cape Divisional Council was a very august body and perhaps it was right that somebody should have said something.

*The hon member spoke about the levying of taxes by local councils. I want to quote to him what the hon the Minister said in reply to a question on this subject yesterday:

†That answers the hon member.

The hon member for Pinelands went on and praised us on the question of restoration. I want thank him for that.

The hon member for Wynberg spoke about the multiple use of State funds and he referred to our purchase of the National Mutual Building and the important impact it has on Church Square and Cape Town with regard to conservation. I want to say to that hon member that in this administration we intend to make every rand go as far as it can and we must seek multiple benefits from our expenditure.

As we did with Church Square in the Transvaal, we have also tried to render a service to urban conservation with regard to Church Square in Cape Town. We try to protect landmark buildings while, at the same time, using those buildings beneficially and on a cost-effective basis. In that way we kill two birds with one stone. We are making a contribution to conservation and we are creating accommodation for this administration where it is required. We have done that in co-operation with the museum people with Church Square in the Cape and with Church Square in the Transvaal where two Ministers of this Ministers’ Council and a Ministerial Representative will have offices, as will the National Monuments Council, the Simon van der Stel Foundation and elements of this administration. They will be accommodated on the first and second floors of the building. On the ground floor we want to bring back shops, life, pavement life, movement, a bustle and a sense of interest.

We want to make a contribution to bringing back life to the centre of Pretoria. We also want to make a contribution to urban conservation in that part of the world and for that reason we want to let the shops that are being restored for activities that will answer the requirements that I have just mentioned—shops that attract people and will create a bustle and a sense of activity in the centre of Pretoria. What we did was to plan in concert with the Church Square Committee, the National Monuments Council, which has approved everything we have done, and the Simon van der Stel Foundation, which has been involved with the work that we did in Church Square in Pretoria.

The hon member for Groote Schuur spoke about the Electoral Act that is being transferred to us. We have not received it yet. The Electoral Act is not yet with us, so what he said is academic.

He also spoke about the Ministerial Representatives. They are appointed by the hon the State President and their functions were set out in a Government Gazette that was published on, I think, 27 May 1987. The Ministerial Representatives each perform their functions within their own region. They act on behalf of the relevant Minister on those matters which are delegated by him to them. I have delegated certain powers to the Ministerial Representatives. I think that they are performing well and are providing a useful service to the public. The feedback that I get from the various regions of our country is that they are popular and necessary, that they are fulfilling a very real need and that they are performing their jobs and filling their roles with great distinction.

*The hon nominated member Mrs lager spoke about the resorts in the Free State. She made a very interesting speech, and we thank her for that.

†The hon member for Yeoville asked about a brochure. Let me say that I also saw the brochure, as he did, a couple of days ago. I do not know whether he liked the brochure or not. Frankly, I have not really studied the brochure well enough to be able form a judgement on it. I can only say that many hon members of the House have come to me and, wrongly, congratulated me on the publication of the brochure. They have done so because they said that all the addresses and the information contained in the back of the brochure are very useful to them and will allow them to serve their constituencies. They said that they found it most useful.

As far as the costs are concerned, the cost of the brochure was R97 276. They printed 38 000—24 250 in Afrikaans and 13 750 in English. It has been very widely distributed. It is a public relations exercise to make the public aware of what this administration is responsible for, what it does, what functions it performs and where its personnel are. Anybody following this debate—the hon member for Yeoville will agree—will know that the public—even the people in this House—are not always clear as to which responsibilities vest in this administration. Therefore is was an attempt to make known the functions of the administration, where they resort and where physically the personnel are.

The hon member for Kuruman is sleeping!

The hon member for Pretoria Central spoke to us about Church Square. We thank him very much for that.

†The clock is marching on. I think I have answered all the hon members who took part in this debate. I thank them for their interest and the contributions they made. I wish everybody a happy Easter weekend.

Debate concluded

Mr Chairman, whereas my department has a major role to play in compiling and presenting the annual budget to this House we are in the fortunate situation that the duties of my department are mainly confined to the rendering of services related to the aims of the Administration: House of Representatives. Therefore we are not that much in the limelight. This, however, does not mean that the functions of my department are not as important as those of any other department.

One of the main functions of my department is to negotiate. As a matter of fact the main function of my department is one of negotiation for sufficient funds from the Department of Finance.

Up to now we have succeeded in maintaining a growth level above the inflation rate which means that we have moved in a positive position.

Let me remind hon members that the inflation rate is determined at approximately 13% at the moment. As my colleague the hon the Minister of the Budget indicated very clearly in his budget speech, the growth rate of last year’s budget to this year’s budget was approximately 17%. I can assure this House that we will keep up the pressure and fight for an even bigger slice of the cake in order to better the standards of living of our people.

So much has been said in regard to the short-term needs of our people. I think that the power of negotiation—and particularly that initiative shown by the hon the Minister—in effecting a growth rate of 17% in the budget, has clearly indicated how much concern we attach to the immediate needs of our people. Hon members will recall that the hon the Minister of the Budget, in his budget speech on 16 March 1989, emphasised the fact that the amount allocated to this Administration has doubled since the 1985-86 financial year. Again this emphasises the correctness of the Eshowe decision. To be a part of this Parliament clearly emphasises that our participation has worked in the interests of our people.

*As all hon members are aware, the economic problems also affect this Administration. Our needs are unlimited, whereas the means at our disposal are limited. As a result, we have to be very judicious in allocating funds made available to us. We know where our needs are most urgent. The hon the Minister of the Budget made a telling statement when he said in his budget speech, “Only he who wears the shoe knows where it pinches.” One of the most important functions of the Ministers’ Council is to determine the needs of our people—this is done by means of negotiation—in order to emphasise the importance of allocating sufficient funds. We can improve the standard of living of our people only if we have the necessary means at our disposal.

†As I have said before, the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services have a supporting role to play. However, this does not mean that we do not look after the interests of our people. In the past we have stressed the desire on many occasions that the officials of our Administration should be considered for promotion or transferred to other State departments.

We have faith in the ability of our people and we know that they can take their rightful place anywhere in society—and make a success of it. This has been proven. I can proudly announce that, apart from our policy of affirmative action—and because of our policy of affirmative action—two of the officials of the Administration have recently been promoted and transferred to the Provincial Administration. Both Mr C J Petersen and Mr C Page were promoted to the rank of Chief Works Study Officer and have assumed duties at the Cape Provincial Administration. This can also be regarded as initiative and an incentive for others in the departments to do likewise.

We regard it as a major achievement of the LP. Although we are in the political arena I would like to address a few words to the officials of the Administration: House of Representatives. The achievements of their two colleagues were only possible because they improved their qualification and worked hard to prove themselves. They have taken the first step. It all depends on themselves now to prove that they can walk the same road.

*Regarding the activities of the Administration, there is a single aspect which I wish to highlight, namely the transport of our children to schools. Everyone knows—it has been said in this House and outside on many occasions—that the Ministers’ Council is striving to eliminate the backlog regarding school facilities. In his budget speech the hon the Minister of the Budget, Auxiliary Services and Agriculture pointed out the progress which has already been made in this regard. However, until we have reached the stage where the backlog has been eliminated, we shall be dependent on the transport system for getting our children to school.

I would like to inform hon members today that the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services is drawing up detailed documents setting out the function of transport systems for our children. It may help to eliminate many of the problems encountered by hon members in this regard.

†We know that a top priority of this department and, in particular, my party is the education of our people. We believe that we will not take in our rightful place in the South African society until the day dawns when there is absolute equal opportunity for all the people of South Africa, especially for our own people. We know that there is a backlog and a lack of facilities. However, we will leave no stone unturned in our effort to bring about absolute equality in this particular field.

We know the important role that education is going to play in the whole transformation of South Africa. We know that we will only take up our place as equal citizens in the South African society if we have equal opportunities and, therefore, equal education. Suffice it to state the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services has an important role to play in the success of the administration. We will keep up the standards of the past and surely better our achievements.

It is indeed a privilege for me this morning to have been placed in this position to present this Vote to hon members.

Mr Chairman, in the first place I want to congratulate the hon the Deputy Minister on the fact that he spoke so comprehensively that he has left hardly anything for one to talk about. I can see he comes from a good school; he is of the old school.

I want to focus my attention on the improvement of conditions of service. I also want to congratulate the hon the Deputy Minister on the seriousness with which he spoke about transport. I want to congratulate him on his affirmative action with reference to these officials who are making rapid progress. I am pleased to hear that they are not simply going to sit here, but will also be going to the provinces. That is very interesting.

There is something else to which I wish to draw the hon the Minister’s attention, however. I understand that at present there are two pieces of legislation with reference to teachers, and that the House of Assembly is defining this legislation. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether it is not possible to draw up only one Act, in conformity with that of the House of Assembly, so that there will not be separate legislation for the House of Representatives and the House of Assembly. I request that legislation with regard to education be uniform.

If that cannot be done, I want to know what the reasons are. Having two pieces of legislation may simply lead to contradictions. I am sure the hon the Minister will agree with me that while they are drawing up legislation for the House of Assembly, this legislation should be made uniform.

Another thorny issue—I think this has been raised before—is the fact that teachers of years with experience are sometimes treated very badly by officials who have not been in education for very long. This causes unnecessary friction. I do not know whether the hon the Minister will be able to rectify this with his policy of affirmative action. We would appreciate it if these frustrations and the conflict between these people could be eliminated.

We have mentioned this before, but I want to raise the question of teachers’ retirement once again. In terms of the present legislation, female teachers are compelled to retire at the age of 60. There are teachers who have fulfilled a dual task over the years, however. They were mothers who had to take care of their households, and at the same time they were teachers. We know that some of them have taught since a very young age, and then at the age of 55 they feel they have done enough for education and want to retire. Of course, some of them only want to retire at the age of 60, but no matter at what age they decide to retire this must be a voluntary decision. They must not feel that they have to stick it out to the age of 65.

I think the time has come to make this change. This would also mean that a large number of new teachers, male and female, who have better training—we know that their training no longer takes only two years, but that most of them receive four years’ training—can be employed. The older teachers will no longer need to struggle on, but will be able to go on early retirement when they feel that it is time for them to retire.

Order! I merely want to tell the hon member that I have an idea that these conditions of service actually have reference to the officials, not the teachers. I think the teachers fall under other Public Service legislation, under the Minister of Education and Culture.

Mr Chairman, I want to tell the hon member for Bishop Lavis that the Education Affairs Act (House of Assembly), No 70 of 1988, has already been rewritten and that the Department is now considering at it.

I read in Die Burger of 21 March that Mr Pieter Marais has been accepted by the LP as a member. The hon member for Bishop Lavis, who has just left the Chamber, likes to interfere into other hon members’ constituencies. I want to express the hope that Mr Marais interferes so much in Bishop Lavis that the hon member for Bishop Lavis will no longer have any desire to interfere further. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member has made his point now. He must come back to the conditions of service. [Interjections.] The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I want to make a request to the hon Minister please to look into the regulations of the Commission for Administration relating to the conditions of service of the officers of the House of Representatives. It would appear that these regulations frustrate our officers when it comes to promotion. We have a socio-economic backlog, coupled with poverty, which will be difficult to eliminate. The inhuman policy of apartheid is responsible for this. It is as a result of these conditions of poverty that the vast majority of our matriculants were obliged to go and work after matric. A large number of them are currently working for the Administration: House of Representatives. I was informed by an official that according to the regulations of the Commission for Administration, an officer may be promoted to the rank of chief officer if he has a three year post-matric qualification or a B-degree, plus nine years’ appropriate experience. It was emphasised that this experience must have been gained after the acquisition of these qualifications. If that is correct, I want to ask the hon the Minister to take this matter up with the Commission for Administration and to amend it, since it will frustrate many officers.

Furthermore, I want to make use of the opportunity to congratulate the Ministers’ Council on the implementation of a policy of upward mobility and affirmative action in the promotion of our officers. At the same time I want to convey my thanks to the department for the promotion of Messrs Pieters and Page, as we have recently learned. If the department promotes a director or a chief director under the department’s policy of affirmative action from our ranks above a White, I want to ask the hon the Minister with all due respect to do so and to do it repeatedly. When the NP came to power in 1948 it appointed Nationalists to all the senior positions, and if they could do this, so can we.

I want to make a serious appeal to our public servants not to sit and wait for promotion to come to them, but to start studying, since sustained study is the key to success today. I also want to ask the hon the Minister to motivate officers to study further by means of study grants, merit awards and achievement incentives, particularly in the specialised categories. The hon the Deputy Minister said a moment ago that these two officers were also promoted as a result of the improvement in their qualifications.

As far as bursaries are concerned, I am very grateful to the department for making bursaries available for fields of study other than education. However, I want to make one request in this regard, and that is that the closing date for submitting applications for bursaries for non-education bursaries should be changed from 31 October of the previous year to 1 March of the year in which the bursary is being applied for, as in the case of education bursaries.

A network of school transport schemes was introduced by the hon the Minister to convey school children throughout the country, who live far from their schools, to the nearest school. We parents are very grateful to the hon the Minister for this. Since the beginning of this year, however, the department has started to apply an old regulation again, namely that, if a child lives within a radius of five kilometres from the nearest school, he does not qualify for school transport. The implementation of this regulation could mean that a bus which still had seats available for children, might now drive past children who travelled on that bus last year. I want to ask the hon the Minister to condone non-adherency to this regulation so that more of our school children will qualify for school transport.

Yesterday I read the Hansard No 9 of 14 April 1988, col 5975, where the hon member for Genadendal lodged a plea for the hon the Minister to upgrade the branch office of the Department of Budget and Auxiliary Services to a regional office. He gave very cogent reasons for this request. I want to join this hon member in asking the hon the Minister to reconsider this request and, if it is practicable, to upgrade that branch office to a regional office. We on this side of the House have to do the hon member for Esselen Park’s work because, since he stopped being a member of the LP, he has been drifting around in Cape Town and has forgotten all about Worcester. I am directing this request to the hon the Minister because the branch office at Worcester is still controlled by the regional office at Bellville, and as long as this is the case, there will always be tension between these offices and there will always be a sword dangling over the head of the branch head since he can be replaced at any time by the regional representative.

Talking about tension, I learned a moment ago that this branch office again had to deal with a very serious problem this morning. [Interjections.]

Finally, I want to thank the hon the Minister for the fact that his office door is always open for any matter my colleagues and I want to discuss with him; I also want to thank him for being prepared to listen to us and to help us.

Furthermore I want to wish the hon the Deputy Minister everything of the best with the acceptance of his new post and express the hope that he will make a valuable contribution towards the development of this ministry.

Mr Chairman, this is the first time since the appointment of the two Deputy Ministers that I have had a turn to speak, and therefore I should like to avail myself of this opportunity in the first place to congratulate the hon member for Toekomsrus. I am pleased that I can place it on record that in him we have someone I have known for the past 22 years, someone who has taken the hard political course. He is a man who has gone through a great deal to get to where he is today, a man who has cooperated with institutions such as the Unity Movement and the Trotskyites. He was a radical in heart and soul and associated with people such as Mr Sonny Leon, Mr Les du Preez, the Dengors and others—not the McKenzies. That is why it is so pleasing to see him sitting here this morning. He used the fine word “negotiation” in his speech. It is no longer “down with everything”.

I should also like to congratulate the hon the Deputy Minister of Education and Culture. One can say the following about him: “He came into the LP, saw the gap and conquered it.” [Interjections.] If only hon members will give me a chance, I shall come back to the subject under discussion.

I must really tell the hon the Minister that even to many hon members, this department is still a mystery. They do not know exactly what is going on there. That is why one hears comments such as the one made by the hon member for Bokkeveld that Esselen Park should set matters straight in the Worcester regional office. They do not really know what is going on there, and I would be pleased if the hon the Minister could spell out certain specific guidelines to them. In the first place there is the misconception that the hon the Minister deals with finance only in processing the transactions of the various other departments as these are sent through to him.

[Inaudible.]

I shall come to that later. That is why I am making this appeal to the hon the Minister once again, because if hon members do not know what is going on, surely John Citizen is even more unaware of what the situation is. [Interjections.] I am going to mention one item. It is a pity I am not in the classroom and cannot ask hon members to put up their hands. How many of these members know that there are A regions and B regions? The hon member for Bokkeveld admitted quite openly that he did not know. For the benefit of that hon member, Bellville is known as an A region and all financial matters with regard to the Paarl and Worcester regions have to be sent through to Bellville first. The hon member for Bokkeveld will understand that that is the bottleneck that he and I have so many problems with. In addition, a fax has come through for the past three meetings of Worcester’s Board of Education.

[Inaudible.]

Sir, perhaps I should sit down so that the hon member for Robertson can take over.

Order! The hon member does not have much time left. The hon member may proceed.

That board’s grant did not materialize. Now it is said that the MPs must merely attend the meetings. That is a disgraceful reflection on the department, because other regions are paid out immediately at their meetings. I appeal to both hon Ministers to investigate the matter thoroughly. If those MPs withdraw, there will not be a quorum in that meeting that is held for the sake of our children. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, allow me first of all to thank the hon members for Bishop Lavis, Bokkeveld and Esselen Park for their participation in this debate.

This department has developed a very low profile and one can see that in this debate. I am not saying that this is correct because, as I have clearly indicated, this department has an important role to play in the socio-economic upliftment of our people. Without this department there can be no other departments. That is why I encourage people, particularly people in this House, to show a greater interest in the activities of this department.

Although I am new in the department and I still have to learn about the functions of the department, I want to assure them that my door will be open for every hon member in this Chamber to visit me on a regular basis so that we can find each other on the score of negotiating a better deal for our people.

Mr Chairman, this department can only play its rightful role in the socio-economic upliftment of people if there is greater input. We have to know what the needs outside are. I do not want to pretend that I have all the answers, but with the assistance of hon members in this Chamber we will find each other and together we will establish what our people’s needs are.

*I address a very friendly invitation to all the hon members of this House to come and visit me so that we can discuss our people’s problems and can find solutions to those problems.

The hon member for Bishop Lavis apologised, since he has to attend another meeting and cannot be here for the reply. In his absence I want to tell him that there is very little on which I can reply to him. The hon member spoke about education. He spoke about teachers and their retirement ages and benefits. It would be quite wrong of me to pre-empt the hon the Minister of Education and Culture. His Vote will be discussed after the recess. Then we can take a look at the needs and problems of teachers. I therefore suggest that the hon member raises his problems when the relevant Vote is discussed.

I want to thank the hon member for Bokkeveld for his kind words.

†I know that he is a young and concerned person. He represents a unique constituency. I had the privilege of working there during the election and I think I got to know his people better because I became very close to them and their problems. I can assure him that those problems will be considered with a lot of compassion by the Ministers’ Council when we meet on this particular issue.

The problem which they experience at their Worcester office will certainly be investigated. I am new in this department and I do not know exactly what powers have been delegated, but I know it is a sub-office and that we will have to look at the functions of that office in relation to the area which it serves.

As far as bursaries are concerned, extending the closing date to March will make it impossible to pay out those bursaries in time for students to continue their studies. If the closing date is March and the administrative aspects are taken into consideration, we will be looking at June or July to pay out bursaries. Half of the year will then be gone and the students will not be in a position to pay their fees. I suggest that students apply timeously, because improving the standard of one’s education is a priority. They have to plan their education and therefore they have to plan their needs for that education. Although it appears to be very difficult, I am sure that better planning on their part will make the department’s task so much easier. The money is there, the concern is there and the need is certainly there. We will do our utmost to fulfil that need, but there must be reciprocity on the part of those who are applying for bursaries. They will nevertheless receive courteous consideration.

*The hon member for Esselen Park said all kinds of wonderful things, among others that I am a Trotskyite. That is not true. I do not even know how to spell the word. [Interjections.] We walked this road together, and it is a pity that our paths have diverged now and that the hon member has lost direction in the process. I would be happy to help him find the right path again, however, although I wonder whether he would accept my assistance.

The hon member spoke about the regional office at Worcester again. As I told the hon member for Bokkeveld, I am not going to reply to him until I have acquainted myself with the problems of that office, because I might just say the wrong thing and have it recorded in Hansard. I do not want that to happen, and therefore will rather reply in writing. Perhaps in this way we can find a better solution to the problems at that office.

I want to conclude by saying once again that the programme of this Ministers’ Council is affirmative action.

†With the co-operation of our people in the department and outside we will see to it that they take their rightful place in the department. However, we can only apply affirmative action if we get the support of our people outside and the co-operation of our people in the department. After all, we cannot promote someone simply because he is Coloured. It does not work that way. It would not be in the interests of our community. We have to get people who are capable of doing the job. That is the most important criterion. However, we promise not to promote anybody above them if they have equal qualifications and are equally able. That is the policy.

*We shall take our people with us, because we owe them that. They were neglected over the years, whether they had the qualifications and the ability or not.

†We will see to it that they are not left behind but then, of course, we must get their support and co-operation. It is the policy of my party to improve our education standards. We will encourage and support our people and go out of our way to make it possible for them to improve their educational qualifications as well as their position in the department.

*I must repeat, however, that we cannot do this merely because they are Coloureds. That will not work, because it will not be in the best interests of our people.

†The whole question of the application of affirmative action was the theme of every member who took part in this debate. I want to assure them that affirmative action is close to our hearts. We mean what we say, but we are not going to be paternalistic. We are going to do it in the interests of the people whom we have to serve.

Debate concluded.