Mr Chairman, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, once everything with regard to local government has been said and tabled, and everything has been weighed and classified only one of two paths remains open. The choice then will be between a Hillbrow or a Boksburg—a Hillbrow, with its NP town council, where everyone mixes with one another, where old people have to spend their lives like canaries in cages, where up to three assaults take place on an aged person within the space of 18 months, and one does not know what awaits one tomorrow on one’s lonely path of life, or a Boksburg, with its CP town council, where the Whites are enjoying an increasing measure of security in life, where the number of break-ins have decreased drastically, and where joy can once again be read on the faces of the elderly because the fear of being assaulted and robbed has been reduced to such an extent. In the final analysis the choice is between an NP-controlled Hillbrow or a CP-controlled Boksburg. That is the choice, and those who are kicking up such a great fuss today about Boksburg would also like to retire in Boksburg one day if it were at all possible for them to do so.

By the way, it would appear that the financial position of Boksburg is improving very drastically. It would appear that Boksburg is experiencing a revival in the economic sphere. [Interjections.] Hon members should just go and read this week’s issue of the Financial Mail and they will see what I am talking about. Ask any White senior citizen in South Africa where he would like to retire and which of the two, the NP Hillbrow or the CP Boksburg, he would prefer. Of course the answer would automatically be: “I would rather choose Boksburg a thousand times over”. [Interjections.] I have read about the so-called poverty and the misery which the local authority of Carletonville has ostensibly forced upon the town by way of its decisions. I have read about court cases as a possible attempt to bring about change. The hon members may go and look in the Witbank area at how many people are living in misery there, and the reason for this is the NP and its foolish decisions.

How much longer is this department going to be a fully fledged department? The hon the Minister may feel free to tell us that. We hear so often that own affairs must be expanded and that they must be increasingly brought to fruition. Will this hon Minister and his department not simply become a subdivision of the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning? Will the local RSCs not eventually absorb the department? The only work the hon the Minister’s department will still have, will be that of repairing street lamps that have fused. If this Government is able to have its way, there will be a great deal more town development over which his department will no longer have any say, particularly in view of the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs’ speech at Piketberg. I want to tell him: A Saul also among the prophets. All he is propagating these days, is an intermingling right through to the local authority level. The only other thing I can say, is: Oh, how the heroes have fallen! What particularly strikes me, is the powerlessness of the local authorities in regard to the large squatter townships that have sprung up in no time at all outside most towns. I hear the farmers are calling these townships Heunis monuments. Local authorities are powerless to move these Heunis monuments. What an eyesore! What a tragic state of affairs! All this is happening under the leadership of the once proud and mighty NP. When the Government began to implement this new dispensation and its new plans from the first level to the third level of government, it could probably never have realised what a Frankenstein monster it had created. Take the devolution of power, for example. This is not wrong if there is a clear and explicit policy nationwide, but local authorities may now decide at will whether a park is open or closed. It is no wonder that Vereeniging is grappling so hard with a situation in which things are not open but not closed either. How absurd! The reason is that this Government is afraid to implement its own creation. That is why it is simply allowing others to take a beating. It is standing on the sidelines and saying: “You go ahead and implement my policy! I shall watch you take a beating”.

There is another phenomenon which has emerged as well, namely that of business concerns and companies attempting to blackmail local authorities. What they are saying, virtually amounts to this: “If you do not do as I want, then I shall boycott you”. Thus we have Sasol at Secunda, for example, addressing words like the following to the town council: “Strongest dissatisfaction—indirect conflict—Sasol must win so that it may make its influence felt.” Should town councils that have been democratically elected simply submissively follow the blackmailers? Why does the Sasol Oil Company only criticise Secunda, and not also the decision of the former NP town council of Sasolburg, which also closed certain places? It is simply to get at the CP. We want to tell companies and business concerns unequivocally: “Shoemaker, stick to your last!”

The hon member for Nigel asked the hon the Minister to grant those young couples who had purchased their first house and who had lost it due to the tremendous interest rate increases during the past few months, an opportunity to qualify for a first home loan, as it were. I wish to lay emphasis on this this afternoon, and I should also like to ask the hon the Minister to lend them a sympathetic ear and to act like a true father in this regard.

The hon member for Middelburg also questioned the correctness of a loan which the former MP for East London City had received from the Department of Manpower instead of from the Department of Local Government, Housing and Works. I have not heard the hon the Minister give a reply to this. Are there problems? Is there another scandal on the way? Is there yet another thorn upon which a member of the Government has trod? Is there yet another embarrassment for the Government, as has so often been the case during the past few months? Is this indeed an instance of corruption which is going to be covered up?

Mr Chairman, in my experience, a clergyman normally has a theme and then three main points. I could find neither a main point nor a theme nor a secondary point in the speech made by the hon member for Witbank and he must therefore excuse me if I do not react to the collection of ideas which he tossed around indiscriminately here. [Interjections.]

It has already become a cliché to say that our local authorities will play an increasingly important role in policy formulation in South Africa in the future. It is also true that our local authorities are at present beginning to exert an important influence in fields in which they were previously not so highly visible.

One of these fields is sport, and this is the case because a large percentage of the facilities, such as sports grounds, sports fields, pavilions and changing rooms fall under the jurisdiction and the authority of local authorities.

†I am not going to dwell on the position of our sportsmen internationally. Suffice it to say that our sportsmen are subjected to an extreme form of discrimination, namely that being practised by so-called liberals. In fact one gets the impression that a call has been made on the hypocrites of the world to unite against our sportsmen.

However, I believe that irrespective of whether we are allowed back into international sport, we should do what is morally right in South Africa. We must continue to foster free participation in sport without any discrimination whatsoever, and we must encourage and assist all talented sportsmen in all sections of society, especially those in the underprivileged sections of our society.

*Meanwhile, however, a very ugly phenomenon has emerged in South African society. I am referring to the steps which CP-controlled town councils such as Boksburg and Brakpan have taken to prohibit those people who are not White from participating on their sports fields. According to newspaper reports, this action has received the support of hon CP members in this House, including, among others, the hon member for Brakpan. According to a newspaper report of 7 February this year in Die Burger, the hon member said the following:

They quote him further, as follows:

What a strange statement by the hon member! The South African Rugby Board has a specific policy, and the hon member for Delmas may inform hon members about that. He was one of those people who formulated that policy. It is stated in that policy that there is no discrimination in rugby; people must not be discriminated against on the basis of the colour of their skin. It is for Brakpan to decide that if they do not agree with the Rugby Board, they must practise their sport separately. How can they tell the Rugby Board that it must abide by the decisions of the community of Brakpan? [Interjections.] Oh, no! This sort of argument really does not have any logical foundation.

The hon member for Brakpan, and all the other hon members, will naturally support the standpoint that people of colour should not be permitted on their sports fields at all. After all, we have a very interesting booklet, the Programme of Principles and Constitution of the CP. I should like to urge hon members on this side of the House to obtain this booklet because they may derive hours of pleasure and enjoyment from it. [Interjections.] They have a stated sports policy. I shall read it out to hon members. They say the following with regard to their sports policy, in point 4(1):

It seems to me that everyone runs in his own way.

They go on to say:

In practical terms the CP policy boils down to the following: People of colour may not practise sport together with Whites, and secondly people of colour do not qualify for Springbok colours. What, then, are they saying? They are saying, and hon members must assist me if I am wrong, that China Bell may not play for Eastern Province; in fact, he may not even set foot on the rugby field at Despatch. I want to ask them whether this is true. There is now silence from the otherwise very vociferous hon members. Errol Tobias should not have played for the Springboks, but he did play when the hon member for Delmas was still a member of the Rugby Board. [Interjections.]

Omar Henry must get out of our cricket. Worse still, on the strength of what is written in their principles, no Black man should even be allowed to take part in road races. The 36 Black athletics Springboks should give back their blazers. Marcelle Winkler and Liesl Bell, talented Coloured girl athletes, should be told to leave the ranks of the Whites, as has just been done to Liesl Bell at Boksburg.

We must have Black, White and Coloured boxing champions, but they may never box against one another. I now ask them, must Rod Estwick and the Black foreign cricket players also scoot? Those hon members need simply say yes or no. It is that easy.

I shall make sure that this policy, which they are emphasising by their silence, is brought to the attention of the sportsmen, the sporting supporters of Despatch, the whole of Sundays River and the entire Eastern Cape. The voters are going to laugh at them. They will say that the CP policy is foolish.

I want to ask a far more serious question. Is the policy foolish or is it sick? [Interjections.] I refer hon members to what the hon member for Carletonville said on 16 May 1988.

May I ask the hon member whether it was not his party’s policy that caused South Africa to be isolated from international cricket because of their decision in regard to D’Oliviera?

This is a different topic, and I will deal with it later. [Interjections.]

*I refer to the hon member for Carletonville, who said the following on 16 May 1988. He dealt inter alia, with the subject of sport, and then went on to say:

Take note. He is opposed to a Black Springbok being “lauded”, as it were. Hon members will see that a White man may be praised, but that if a Black man is praised that is objectionable praise.

When Errol Tobias ran rings around the English in 1984, we should not have applauded him. What else does he say? Blacks in the independent states may not become Springboks. Do I also hear him say that as a British citizen John Robbie should not have played for Transvaal and that he should not be considered for the Springboks? He goes on to say reproachfully in the same speech: “We give them everything here in South Africa”.

That is the crux of the matter. It concerns the fact that that party is opposed to opportunities being given to Blacks. That is what they are opposed to. The CP policy is not foolish. It is sick. It is based on naked racism. It is a policy which seeks to put an end to the athletics careers of talented girls such as Marcelle Winkler and Liesl Bell. It is just as sick, or even more sick than the international community which almost destroyed Zola Budd. A policy which seeks to throw a fellow South African, an honourable fellow South African such as Omar Henry, out of sport, is immoral and shows no comprehension of the basic principles of Christian justice and Christian love. I can tell hon members this: The people of South Africa will not accept it.

I shall now conclude, and perhaps I shall reply in passing to the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central. The hon member for Carletonville is a great adherent of the late Dr Verwoerd. On 14 April 1988 he said in this House: “Since then South Africa has never had a leader of Dr Verwoerd’s calibre.” Let us agree about the greatness of Dr Verwoerd, but he did prohibit an All Black rugby team containing a few Maori’s from coming to South Africa.

I now ask—hon CP members must say yes or no now, because according to their policy they say no—whether the CP would allow such a team today—yes or no. [Interjections.] One, two, three, four, five … still no answer. [Interjections.] Therefore, they would debar it.

Mr Vorster debarred the MCC because Basil D’Oliveira was included in the team. Supposing the MCC came to South Africa today and they had Omar Henry in the team, would the CP allow them to come, yes or no? [Interjections.] No, they are quiet, because they cannot answer. They know that if they say no, South Africa will reject them. [Interjections.]

I want to conclude by saying that those people who would ostensibly prefer to go and live in Boksburg should be told the CP’s entire policy before they are motivated to go and live in Boksburg. [Interjections.] South Africa will utterly reject the immoral policy of the CP with regard to sport.

Mr Chairman, I was pleased to listen to the very interesting speech made by the hon member for Sundays River. It is quite interesting that he should have mentioned Dr Verwoerd’s Maori speech and Mr Vorster’s ban on Mr D’Oliveira. It is a pity that he did not come right out and say that it was the NP, instead of simply mentioning the names of those leaders. It was the NP policy to do so. [Interjections.]

For this reason I should like to congratulate the hon member and the NP on the fact that after all these years they have adopted the PFP’s sports policy in its entirety. We were right all along. Hon members know it is our policy that sport should be for everyone. It has quite rightly been asked why, if someone may swim, box and play rugby with one, he cannot live with one. That is the question. [Interjections.] At the moment he can also go to bed with us—that is quite right. For this reason I hope that the NP’s other policies will shortly correspond with those of the PFP in so far as free association and a lack of discrimination in South Africa are concerned.

†I would like to refer to the speech made by the hon member for Langlaagte and congratulate him on the points he made. If I understood him correctly he said that while the White birthrate was levelling off, that of the Blacks and other race groups was increasing, as were their demands for housing, education and other social services. We must agree with that.

He went on to say that if we do not succeed in providing the education, housing and social services required, we will fail in our population development programme and change into a banana republic. We on this side of the House support everything he said.

I am sure that the majority of hon members of this House, in their own way and with their own sense of urgency, want to see a South Africa free of the anxiety, anger and sorrow into which racial attitudes have trapped everybody. We as elected leaders have an advantage over citizens at large in that we have more power to bring about changes. It is tragic that we, especially here, cannot agree to act quickly on things which most of us know deep down in our hearts must eventually be done.

I think that is what the hon member for Langlaagte tried to say, because I am sure that he knows without any doubt that the Group Areas Act must disappear altogether. Perhaps one of the hesitancies is that we, especially we Whites, do not have a clear idea of what this means in terms of life in our cities: What is going to happen to us? These are our fears and our hesitancies if the Group Areas Act is scrapped.

During my eight and a half years in Johannesburg I have been studying the changes and I am getting the unpleasant feeling that for many the scrapping of the Group Areas Act really means simply giving Blacks our second-hand cities. That is what it really means.

The signs are everywhere. I get the impression, for example, that the great enthusiasm of some estate agents for the scrapping of the Group Areas Act is simply that if the Whites can be persuaded to get rid of their old cities, they are in the market to buy new ones. Is not the property boom in places like Sandton, Midrand and Verwoerdburg really the beginning of this process?

If this is what the scrapping of the Group Areas Act means, I tremble for our future. Secondhand things need more maintenance than new things. Rich people are better able to maintain old things than are poor people. I know that houses taken over by Indians in Mayfair tend to be refurbished and that Mayfair will probably be a posher area under the Indians than under the present White occupants. This proves my point that the Indians in Mayfair are richer than the Whites.

But what happens when the new occupants are poor? If the scrapping of the Group Areas Act means giving the Blacks our second-hand cities, I believe that all we are doing is taking the easy route now and postponing the huge cost to us till later. Even the awesome wealth of the USA, as we all know, has been unable to salvage large parts of American cities from the slide to dereliction under this process. When rich people move they take their wealth with them.

It does not only stop at houses. All social and infrastructural services are affected. I believe that if the Blacks move into our inner Johannesburg they might discover that it is just as mean as Soweto. Instead of travelling from Soweto to Central Johannesburg to work, they will soon have to travel from Johannesburg to Midrand, for which at present there are no trains or buses available.

When I see the kind of urban development which is taking place north of Johannesburg and I see the proliferation of security-fenced office parks and industrial parks, the fortress-like shopping centres and walled housing estates, a dismal picture starts to emerge.

Needless to say, I am not speaking against the scrapping of the Group Areas Act. Everybody knows that. What I am saying is that it is a passive measure that will not by itself solve our desperate problems.

The failures will affect all of us, Whites as well as Blacks. I do not believe that the fortress-like towns north of Johannesburg will create a happy generation of Whites; on the contrary, these artificial and rarefied environments are likely to breed a generation of deeply unhappy people. One cannot deny man’s gregarious instincts, even if he does not acknowledge them, and get away with it.

In my profession I know a little about psychology. I believe that this new apartheid we are heading for based on the physical mobility provided by wealth will create towns to the north of Johannesburg which will be miserable because of their loneliness and a miserable inner Johannesburg because of its super-crowded poverty.

New macro-planning is taking place for most South African cities at this time, certainly in the PWV area. Is this not the right time to address all these problems? We should be examining our cities not as coarse blocks of land shaded different colours on the map for different uses, but in great detail. We should be trying to identify every patch of land that can be developed or redeveloped for compact, low cost urban housing within the flesh of the city rather than outside it.

No doubt many Whites will be terrified by the prospect of Blacks living near to them, but this terror is based largely on the image of the sprawling, smokey, dusty, littered and generally faceless and ghastly environments that are Black towns under apartheid. [Interjections.]

Today South Africa enjoys the skills of the finest town planners and urban designers who can create what I am talking about—a complete neighbourhood, one in which houses are closely related to each other and to the public space between them; one in which the essential core elements of a neighbourhood, its shops, churches, schools and parks, are designed and placed so as to strengthen the identity of our towns. When people feel positive about where they live they tend to look after it and when a place is looked after people are less afraid.

Our friends in big property development companies must do their bit in central business districts. There are massive plans to renew Johannesburg’s CBD but it worries me that the strategy seems to be to seize the western half of the CBD and expunge it of all Blacks except those who wear white collars, and leave the eastern side to rot along with its abutting Hillbrow.

I would like to ask these developers to question whether such a plan is really in their long-term business interests. Surely a better plan is to find places within the new developments for small Black businesses and to abandon their apparent obsession with exclusively first-world settings. What is wrong with having well-managed floor space for small Black businesses mixed with more upmarket activities?

Finally, I want to caution against the belief that the acceptance of wealthier Blacks in their midst by Whites constitutes the way out of our predicament. This is a most heartwarming phenomenon but can never cope with the vast dimensions of our basically Third World situation. We should stop thinking about group areas or scrapping group areas in abstract, global and generally wishful terms. We have to get down to the problem in detail and see how we can get out of this quagmire without simply walking into another.

I would like to direct my next request to the hon the Minister whom I include as one of those who wants to see an end to the anger, anxiety and sorrow that previous policies and practices have brought upon us, to shift the emphasis of his department’s planning to a much more detailed scale, the scale which people actually experience in their daily lives. Planners like to compare cities with the human anatomy. As a doctor I would like to tell the House that most of what goes wrong with the body and mind has its origins at a scale that one is very lucky to see, even through a microscope.

Mr Chairman, today I should like to talk about Government villages and State-controlled housing which must be affordable for the individual, since it is generally held that it is not the State’s responsibility to provide housing for people who can afford it.

There is a Government village in my constituency called Cradock Place, and there are also State-controlled flats. Housing such as that in Cradock Place is out-and-out for people who earn very little money.

I am proud of this residential area. I am prepared to invite anyone to come and see how neat those dwelling units are. It is true that a great deal of upgrading can still be done, although everyone living there is very happy. Of the existing 196 dwelling units, not one is vacant; on the contrary, there is a long waiting-list. This gives one only one answer, and that is that Whites also have a great need for this kind of housing.

We can make show-pieces of these small towns. What is more, I am not apologising for the fact that there is such a town in my constituency. The rent per month in this town ranges from R10 and R20 per unit. I have already mentioned that not one of those units is vacant and that there is a long waiting-list.

In contrast there are also State-controlled flats in this residential area. It is quite alarming that so many of these flats are empty. This is very difficult to justify or account for, particularly in view of the fact that there is also such a great housing shortage amongst people of colour.

On 5 May 1988 the Government issued a statement giving the assurance that this residential area would remain a proclaimed White residential area. Surely these residents therefore have the right to ask for the protection of their residential area.

I should like to take this opportunity to thank the hon the Minister and his department for the efforts thus far made to upgrade this place and the flats.

For the present it is estimated that more than R3,5 million will be needed for the renovation of the flats, particularly on the outside, for closing in balconies, adding garages, putting up washing lines, tarring surfaces around the flats, braai facilities, etc.

I also know that negotiations are currently under way to accommodate people who are obviously in need. Without going into details in this regard, I nevertheless want to ask the hon the Minister for these discussions to be speeded up so that we can fill those empty flats.

I also want to ask for positive steps to be taken to make it possible for individuals to buy single flats or blocks of flats too.

Only today I discovered that the ACVV had obtained 24 of those flats from the department as an experiment. They are leasing them again. On 1 March 1989 20 of those 24 flats had already been leased and there were a considerable number of applications for the other four. The ACVV concentrates specifically on providing housing for people who receive State allowances.

If we look at the facts—we are talking about affordable housing for Whites in that area—52,8% of those flats were vacant in October 1988, 46% of the three-bedroom flats, ie 252 of the 546 flats, were standing empty and of the two-bedroom flats 67% or 173 of the 258 were vacant. At the moment 395 of the 804 flats are vacant. This is a slight improvement on October 1988, but that was only six months ago.

I also want to endorse what a previous speaker, the hon member Mr D P de K van Gend, said about affordable housing.

Affordable housing surely does not only mean housing that can be purchased. What about affordable leasing of housing by the State, as in the case of those flats? If we look at the facts, what would be the best? To simply leave the flats as they are and maintain them after all these years or after several years during which those flats have been standing empty, or to rent them out to the public at an affordable rent?

I know there are people who simply cannot afford these flats. As far back as 13 March I directed a request to the department for a decision to be made as to how exactly the rent would be determined. At this stage I am still not sure how the rent is determined. It is done in terms of two circulars—No 9 of 1983 and No 6 of 1987—but I shall have to establish at a later stage exactly how the rent is determined. Regularly tenants, particularly widows or single people and elderly people, complain that they cannot afford the rent for these flats. According to the information at my disposal, elderly people pay 5% or one twentieth of their incomes. I am not casting doubt on these figures, but it does seem that it is sometimes difficult for those people to afford this.

I can also mention a few examples. Recently an eviction order was served on a woman with three dependants. This happened after her rent was R600 in arrears. Her income is R375 a month, and the rent of the flat R127 a month. After the ACVV had obtained these flats, that woman was helped again. The rent she pays at present is R75 a month.

Another example I want to refer to is that of a divorcee with two dependent children and a monthly income of R267. The rent she must pay amounts to R111,50. Then there is another one with two dependent children. She earns R200 a month, and her rent is R117. That rent also varies on the basis of differing incomes. Surely it would be an easier solution to say that people who cannot afford this housing should be helped elsewhere. Then we would in any case still have the dilemma that those 395 flats are standing empty.

Let me put the following question. Is it cheaper to have these flats standing empty and to maintain them or to make them available to Whites at a lower rental?

In conclusion let me say the following. The long-term objective of the national housing development strategy is to ensure that an adequate, affordable supply of housing is created and maintained and to combat conditions which impede healthy activities. Then there is the short-term objective, the most important of all. This is to identify the serious housing problems and alleviate them by applying the principle of assistance according to earnings, and also to ensure that assistance is given first to those who are in need. In terms of this accepted strategy I appeal to the Government and the department for this matter to receive in-depth attention and for affordable housing to be made available to Whites in order to alleviate the housing problem of the lower income groups.

I am also pleased to support the request made by the hon member Mr Danie van Gend that these problems be referred to a commission of inquiry and dealt with promptly.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Algoa will forgive me for not reacting to him, but rather entering into discussion with the hon member for Sundays River.

This hon member devoted his whole speech to sport and sports policies. When the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central put a simple question to him, however—a simple question about sport and sports policy—this hon member regarded it as “a different topic altogether”, something totally different from what he was talking about. This was his reaction, whereas that was precisely the subject he was discussing.

The hon member was miles away from the truth when he presented certain images of CP policy with regard to sport, and then professed to be quoting from a CP policy document, viz that party’s programme of principles and policy. He also neglected to inform the House, to whom he was professing to quote from the CP document, that this was a flawed quotation, a partial quotation, and that he—I must assume that this was intended and on purpose—was committing misrepresentation with regard to this House by omitting to quote an important, an integral part of the CP’s policy with regard to sport.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: May the hon member say that the hon previous speaker was making a misrepresentation here on purpose.

I am going to prove it.

Order! No, the hon member must withdraw that remark.

I withdraw it, Mr Chairman.

Nevertheless, I find it strange that the hon member presented something as a comprehensive quotation from the CP’s policy document, whereas in fact that was not the case.

And then he ran away!

And then the hon member ran away! He is not here! He knows, or should know, what the Rules of this House are, viz that no hon member is compelled or is in a position to reply to every question that is put while another hon member is making a speech. Then he tried to get it on record that the questions he was putting were not being answered, knowing full well that there were other hon members of the CP who would have an opportunity to reply later, as I am doing now. [Interjections.]

With regard to the point the hon member neglected to mention, paragraph 4.5 of the CP policy reads as follows:

What did the hon member do? [Interjections.] The hon member read from those four paragraphs only what has reference to the emphasis on an own community life, the right of every population group to regulate, control, organise and coach sport in its own society.

Then what does paragraph 4.5 say?

Paragraph 4.5, which I have just read to hon members, establishes that aspect of policy which has reference to contact between the various population groups in the sphere of sport. [Interjections.] Clear as daylight! The hon members who now seem so ignorant and so holier-than-thou in their ignorance, understood this same policy very well a few years ago, and it was not all that long ago. [Interjections.] Not too long ago it was their policy too. That is why the hon member for Sundays River found it to be an “altogether different topic” when the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central pointed out to him that the policy he was attacking was the policy he had advocated a short time previously.

What are you really trying to say?

The hon member for Sundays River finds it an “altogether different topic”. I want to ask him a question about the “altogether different topic”. What gives him the right to make such derogatory comments when he was making a selective quotation, whereas when a citizen of the Republic of South Africa, a member of this Parliament and of the Cabinet of the hon the State President, who did not want to go and practise a sport, but merely wanted to go and swim for the sake of relaxation, was treated in such a way that it cost him his membership of the Cabinet? With that in mind, what gives the hon member for Sundays River any right whatsoever to attack the CP’s policy on sport? [Interjections.] That is political immorality.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member?

The hon member knows that I have no intention of replying to any of his ridiculous questions. [Interjections.] After all, when questions are put to the hon member, he finds it expedient to say they concern an “altogether different topic”, whereas they concern the “topic” that he himself spoke about.

The hon member for Sundays River said Brakpan’s rugby club should take its own separate course if it did not agree with the policy as laid down by the SA Rugby Board. [Interjections.] Did I understand the hon member for Sundays River correctly? [Interjections.] When the Brakpan Rugby Club sees fit to respect the wishes of the voters of the municipality in whose area it operates, the area it comes from and the community from which its players and supporters come, and if in addition the rugby club respects the decision of the orderly and rightful management of that municipality to reserve certain sport facilities for use by Whites, in terms of the mandate they received from those voters by way of a majority vote, and also respects the right, the authority and the orderly exercise that mandate, the hon member for Sundays River says that rugby club must carry on on their own. He is talking them out of organised rugby and the SA Rugby Board, as it were. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Sundays River is shaking his head. Among others, he used words such as “sick” and “silly”. I shall not stoop to that level. [Interjections.] His shaking his head justifies that kind of description, viz the description he meted out to others a moment ago, and he must not complain about that now. Once again he is shaking his head, and it appears that he finds that kind of description quite in order.

The question is who controls the people of Brakpan. Who controls the Brakpan municipality? Is it the hon member for Sundays River and Dr Craven of the SA Rugby Board? Can they take decisions on the facilities of the municipality of Brakpan, which are reserved for the Whites of Brakpan? [Interjections.] The hon member finds that unacceptable too. He is shaking his head. The municipality of Brakpan and all the facilities under its control are controlled by the town council of Brakpan. That town council was elected by a majority of voters to be a CP town council and to implement CP policy. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member?

Order! The hon member has already indicated that he is not prepared to reply to questions.

Mr Chairman, thank you very much for giving that hon member the guidance that he apparently was unable to find.

Paragraph 4.5, which I read out, refers inter alia to the fact that White sportsmen should not be required to administer sport contrary to the party’s political policy. The hon member elected to quote selectively, and not to read out this section. I want to ask the hon member whether he does not perhaps agree with this formulation. [Interjections.] Does he not perhaps agree with it?

Let me apply this to the NP. Does the hon member not agree that he should not permit sportsmen to be pressurised in such a way that they are forced to administer their sport contrary to the NP’s political policy? Now there is silence. There is deafening silence!

There are no contradictions!

An hon member says there is no contradiction. I am grateful to that hon member, because I thought that if the hon member for Sundays River wanted to speak about this matter frankly, he would have given that reply.

It was the hon member for Benoni!

The hon member for Benoni. Yes, the hon “braaivleis” member for Benoni. [Interjections.]

Order!

In other words, if there is no contradiction between the policy of the SA Rugby Board and the NP’s political policy, we must accept that the impression that was created, that the NP had problems with the fact that the SA Rugby Board had gone to speak to the ANC in Harare, was merely a ploy to mislead the electorate. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member was getting at my colleague from Sundays River here. He tried to make a point based on principles which he himself does not understand, because he cannot tell us what their political policy is. How must we establish when they are acting contrary to their policy and when they are not? The question is, and the hon member must answer it, whether that party will allow a mixed All Blacks rugby team to participate in South Africa or not.

[Interjections.] That is the question and the hon member tries to hide his embarrassment and political bankruptcy behind Brakpan and all the other places. The point is that if the CP is not prepared to say unequivocally whether they will allow a mixed rugby team to play rugby here or not, they are far off the mark in South Africa because the electorate of South Africa insists on that answer, and we shall hound the CP until we have the answer.

I want to turn to the post of the hon the Minister and not talk about sport this afternoon. We saw a great deal of fun and games in the local authorities which were established by the CP. Since 26 October when I started watching the way the CP dealt with local government, it reminded me very strongly of a saying of Langenhoven. Langenhoven’s saying went like this:

This is what is happening to the CP. We are now seeing them in totality. I am sure that the voters who voted for the CP on 26 October will feel an affinity with two other sayings of Langenhoven. In the first place he said:

I am very sure that it is true. The other one is:

That is the CP.

The question that we must put to the CP this afternoon is which town or city council is implementing CP policy. Is it Potchefstroom which is allowing students of colour to move onto campus again? Is it Vanderbijlpark which refuses to accommodate Indians in its central business district, or is it Carletonville, Boksburg and Brits who, when they greet you, say: “Goodbye, I’ll see you yesterday”? Is it Brits which gives R1 000 to the Volkswag but does not subsidise children of its own town, who do not have the financial means, to undertake an educational tour? Is it the policy of that party to tax one church and others not at all? The question is which town council is implementing CP policy. Is it that one which moves fast—a bit too fast for the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition, because he said that Boksburg moved too quickly and should rather have followed a tortoise approach and moved a bit slower—or is it those CP town councils who do not implement CP policy in every precise detail, and which are not suspended by the CP either, despite all the threats? Are they the ones who are implementing its policy?

This afternoon I want to make the assertion that the CP-MPs give the CP town council members orders on how they must manage their affairs. When one confronts them about Brits, they say that it is a political decision. The question is whether they trust their members. Last year we spoke about the contract which CP candidates had to sign. The question is whether those hon members who are divided among themselves as regards the AWB—and there is probably one of the “Suiwer Vier” amongst them—are ensuring that the contract is being implemented to the letter.

I want to make the following point. The NP trusts its town council members. We do not make them sign contracts. We do not interfere in their affairs. We do not interfere in their affairs on local government level. We trust our people to be able to maintain community life and plan it as they prefer. [Interjections.]

A further question. Which CP-MP’s advice do they follow, that of the hon member for Middelburg or the hon nominated member, Mr Clive Derby-Lewis? Let us consider Mr Clive Derby-Lewis. If Mr Clive Derby-Lewis is here I shall be pleased. I asked that he be present.

Let us hear what Mr Clive Derby-Lewis has to say. Let us look at his philosophy and his approach, because that is what his advice as MP is based on, because the instruction of the hon member for Middelburg is clear. They must clear everything.

Let us hear what he says in Cross Times of December 1988:

I accept that these “Africans” who are being referred to, are Black people. Let us see what the hon member says under oath. He was being cross-examined:

Hon members must listen carefully to the answer:

[Interjections.] Furthermore the point is that he is referring specifically to Johannesburg, contrary to the instructions of the hon member for Middelburg that no legitimacy was to be given to mixed institutions and to Black people there.

Let us listen further to what the hon member Mr Derby-Lewis said in this court case. He was asked:

He answered as follows:

I want to ask the hon member to make them known to us. I wish to know who those Coloureds are.

Worse still is his reply to the question of whether he had had any contact with Black radicals:

[Interjections.] I knew that he was used to White radicals, but I did not think hat he was used to Black radicals.

[Interjections.] He was also asked how many of them he spoke to, and he said:

Let us look at the philosophy of the hon member. He was also asked what he regarded as the criterion for determining whether a person was a Third World person or a developed and civilized person. Let us listen to this question because it is very interesting:

The hon member answers “Yes”.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: It is not clear to me which aspect of the Vote the hon member for Pretoria Central is dealing with at the moment.

Order! The hon member for Pretoria Central is very far from the Vote. He must come back to the discussion of the Vote. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I address you on that point? We are busy with a housing debate, and toilets are certainly relevant in this case. [Interjections.]

Order! It is not for the Chair to decide whether it has anything to do with housing or not. The hon member for Pretoria Central must come back to the Vote.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member?

No, Sir. [Interjections.] The fact is that the CP is now trying to gain time, because they are getting hurt.

The hon member for Middelburg gave the CP town council members a clear instruction. Let us look at what those instructions are. One was to appoint CP officials. In other words, his qualifications are of no importance. He must be a CP, then he must be appointed. The second instruction is to advertise in the Patriot. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I do not intend entering into the debate between those sitting on my left and those on my right. It is rather like a dispute between a building contractor and his subcontractor. The builder has commenced the building of apartheid by putting in lousy foundations, and then, when the subcontractor comes along and tries to continue, he builds wonky walls. A fight then breaks out as to who is in the right and who is in the wrong.

It really would be rather an amusing debate if it were not so absolutely tragic. Here one has two groups of racists trying to attack each other and debate the issue of who is a racist and who is not. It really is quite a sad omen for the future of this country.

I am going to try to brighten up this debate by speaking about lights and neon signs. Briefly, I would like to deal specifically with the trend among many local authorities, of which Cape Town is foremost, to be over-restrictive in limiting advertising signs on buildings. The local chamber of commerce has raised this issue, urging the city council to deregulate and bear in mind that business needs to be promoted and not stifled.

While I am not advocating interference by central Government in matters which are essentially within the jurisdiction of local authorities, it is nevertheless appropriate that city councils and town councils should be aware of our attitude on matters which, on the one hand, are of environmental and aesthetic importance, and on the other, limit the rights of commercial undertakings to promote their enterprises through advertising.

I am not suggesting that there should not be any controls or limitations on signs. I fully support the steps taken by the Cape Town City Council to protect our architectural environmental heritage by enforcing strict control in the demarcated parts of the city where the character and spirit of older Cape Town should be preserved for all time.

Cape Town is, however, not unique in being both a modern, bustling city about to enter the twenty-first century, and at the same time, the custodian of streets, squares and buildings which encapsulate a rich architectural and cultural past. I believe that just as it is important to preserve the best of the past, we cannot stifle the natural and legitimate manifestations of the modern, bustling culture of present times. Highrise buildings, new patterns of housing developments and virile commercial and industrial activity are all essential features of modern culture. We work and play at a faster and on a bigger scale than previous generations. Advertising and bright lights are very much part of the macro-dynamics of our go-go, jet-setting society.

In the same way that older Cape Town is a manifestation of the culture and lifestyle of our forefathers which we proudly preserve, just so, modern society must not be overly restrictive in manifesting our style of life and activity, inter alia, by vigorous and visible marketing and promotion. Places of public entertainment, hotels, nightclubs, restaurants, theatres and cinemas which seek to attract their patrons at night, have the right to erect effective marketing signs. In the same way, night chemists and others who provide afterhours service to the public have the right and a sense of duty to give clear direction to their place of business. I imagine some people might say that there are others who provide nighttime services who are likewise entitled to advertise themselves appropriately.

Some Councils, and Cape Town in particular, are following a particularly restrictive policy against commercial signs, and particularly sky signs which presently add colour and vitality to the night scene, and are threatened with extinction. It is generally accepted that Piccadilly Circus and Times Square owe their nighttime popularity, in no small measure, to the colour and vitality provided by the kaleidoscope of neon signs.

I am not suggesting that we could or should emulate these examples, but in the interests of free enterprise and of adding vitality to our cities’ night scene, a more balanced approach could be adopted without any prejudice to architectural heritage or aesthetic sensitivity.

Mr Chairman, I am not going to pay much attention to the PFP. I do not want to be nasty to them because I learnt at home that you must be very kind to a dying person. [Interjections.] According to my calculations, they still have 17 days left to live. We shall pay attention to them again the day they have established a new party. [Interjections.]

I see that the hon member for Yeoville is also here. I hear that he is one of the fellows who voted against the amalgamation of the parties. I wonder if it is correct? Does the hon member not want to give us an answer to that question? I believe that the hon member for Houghton also voted against the amalgamation. It seems as though it could be an interesting combination—the hon member for Houghton and the hon member for Yeoville! [Interjections.]

I wish to refer briefly to the speech made by the hon member for Potgietersrus. Now that was really a case of the devil punishing sin. [Interjections.] He told the hon member for Sundays River that he had not replied to the question of the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central. He did not, however, reply to any of the questions put to him by the hon member for Sundays River. Not one. He had the cheek to tell the hon member for Sundays River that he had to be here when he replied to his questions. Where is that hon member? It is very interesting that he refers to the questions of the hon member for Sundays River as foolish questions, but he cannot give a reply to any of those questions.

Today we can spend a little time discussing what has happened since 26 October. With the announcement of the municipal elections the hon member for Lichtenburg said that these elections were like manna from heaven for the CP. Now I want to admit at once that a little manna did fall on their head, but what fell on their head the most were hailstones the size of pigeon eggs.

Many interesting things happened. At the beginning of the election it was clear that the CP had two fundamental standpoints. The first was that they wanted to take over local government to show how the CP could govern. The second was that they wanted to sabotage regional services councils, as the hon member for Lichtenburg said, because according to him they wanted to smash the regional services councils and bring them to a halt.

Nearly five months have passed since the CP took control of certain town councils. I think it is fair if we take stock to see how the CP has fared during this period. I firstly want to look at their main objective and that is that they wanted to show this country how the CP could govern. Let us have a look. Firstly, they succeeded in showing us that they have made a mockery of South Africa and the Afrikaner in the eyes of the world. I want to give an example; They tell me that in Carletonville Blacks may now walk through the parks and may work there, but they may not sit there. [Interjections.] Can the hon members believe that that is what people say?

Secondly, they have proven to us that they can turn prosperous towns into ghost towns within four months. This they have also proven to us. [Interjections.] That is why it is interesting that the hon member for Witbank says that there is a revival in Boksburg. Simultaneously, however, we have an interpellation here in which they resent the fact that no action is taken against the so-called boycotters of Boksburg. [Interjections.] These are two completely different statements!

They tell us that the swimming area at Kleinmond has a signpost. [Interjections.]

The hon member must please leave Kleinmond and its signposts alone. [Interjections.] He must please show us which cufflinks he has on today.

Potchefstroom’s.

He is wearing the cufflinks of a mixed university! Then he talks to me about the signposts! Please! [Interjections.]

The third point I wish to make is that they have transformed prosperous businesses into ailing businesses, businesses which have closed and have been declared bankrupt. [Interjections.]

The worst of all is that they have proven that with their policy they have succeeded in making Whites lose their work, the result being that their wives and children do not have food to eat and then the NP Government must provide them with food from the Unemployment Insurance Fund. [Interjections.] That is what happens.

They have also proven another very important thing to us, and that is that they have succeeded in unleashing the resentment and hatred of the Black, Coloured and Indian communities against the Whites in this country. [Interjections.] They grabbed back amenities which were shared, and annexed them for Whites only, regardless of whether comparable amenities for people of colour existed or not. This is nothing less than detestable selfishness.

A very interesting thing happened on Saturday, 12 November 1988, when the CP held a municipal conference. It was said that all council chambers and receptions of the council were to be reserved for Whites only. This is a document of the hon member for Middelburg which we are fortunate to have in our possession. [Interjections.] I shall not go so far as to say that. It reads: “Public amenities must be open to all races. Must such decisions be repealed?”

As far as I know, these decisions have only been implemented by two or three councils. [Interjections.] They maintain that they control 43 councils in the Transvaal; now I ask today what has happened to the other 40. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Nigel is making too many interjections. The hon member may continue.

Thank you, Sir.

Krugersdorp decided that coloured people at the medical association in the Centenary Hall could attend a mixed meeting or dinner. Unfortunately I do not have the time to go into all these points, but I shall conclude with one.

The CP’s employment policy, which the hon member for Pretoria Central referred to, only has one norm, and that is that an official has to be a CP in order to be appointed. This does not augur well for local government. A person must at least have clever officials if you have a stupid council … [Interjections.] … so I want to recommend that those hon members ask for NP officials to be appointed, because then it will help to compensate a little for what they are doing. [Interjections.]

During this period of CP government one positive aspect has emerged. The voters of South Africa are disillusioned with the CP policy. They have found them out and will deal with them because they have been misled.

The second point which the hon members of the CP have stated as objective is the destruction of the regional services councils. Let us consider how they have fared here. The hon member for Lichtenburg declared war on the regional services councils and said in the Patriot:

They could just as well have voted for the NP and I shall say why.

Unfortunately the hon member for Pietersburg does not agree with this. On television he said that it was the policy of the CP to participate in regional services councils. The hon member said it on television and it was completely contrary to what his leader said. Luckily he was not suspended. Less lucky was Mr Danie Dorfling, CP town council member of Port Elizabeth, who said that regional services councils could succeed, and then the lion of the Cape, Mr Jan Hoon, came and suspended him from the party.

The hon members must listen to this because it is very interesting. The Westvaal Regional Services Council includes the following CP-controlled town councils …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is the discussion of regional services councils an aspect which falls within the scope of the Vote of the hon the Minister?

Order! The hon member for Parow may continue.

Mr Chairman, that was a typical example of CP ignorance. The CP-controlled town councils of Lichtenburg, Ventersdorp, Schweizer-Reneke and Potchefstroom are all associated with the Westvaal Regional Services Council. Last Thursday the CP members in that council came forward with the proposal that the council be depoliticised. [Interjections.] They must co-operate for the development of the region, and this proposal was accepted unanimously. What is its effect? It means that the CP members have now freed themselves from the CP’s “politburo”. They do not follow the guidance of their leader anymore.

It is no wonder that the Easter weekend came just in time for these hon members to go back and solve the problems in their constituencies. While the hon members are there, the hon member for Losberg can ask his town council why they applied to this racially mixed regional services council for a water scheme of plus-minus R12 million. [Interjections.] The hon member for Ventersdorp can ask why they applied to this racially mixed regional services council, which they wanted to destroy, for R1,2 million. The hon member for Lichtenburg can go and ask why Lichtenburg applied to this racially mixed council for water and sewerage schemes for all the people in the town. The hon member for Schweizer-Reneke can ask why they applied to this racially mixed council. If they want to destroy these councils in this manner, why then apply to them for money? [Interjections.]

I want to conclude. We shall not be angry if they change their policy and co-operate. On the contrary, the signs are already there that the CP is participating enthusiastically in the racially mixed regional services councils in our country.

*Mr P C CRONJÉ: Mr Chairman, the hon member for Parow was recently still sitting here with us and one would think that that was the reason for his enlightened speeches, but I think that the longer he finds himself on the other side the more likely it is that he will fall back into conservatism. The hon member also makes such “Gorbachev”-like speeches here, but when one really looks at the aims of the department, one finds a few interesting things. I want to quote from the publication Administration: House of Assembly here, and on page 19 the following is stated:

†In other words this says that the objective of having a community life must be an own affair. It also has as an objective under the heading “Local Government”:

One might add “as racially defined” to that. This sounds like it could very well have been the manifesto of the Boksburg town council.

*That is precisely like the Boksburg town council and those are the objectives of the department which we are discussing today. The hon member for Parow should read this to see what he is supposed to be promoting.

When we talk about the business of this department and about Boksburg, the issue is not only that of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. It is high time the NP told us precisely where they stand and what they are trying to do. For example, what is the department’s attitude going to be with regard to the whole question of the new free settlement areas? After all, the free settlement areas are a general affair, but here it is being said that with regard to local government and housing, this department is obliged to administer them as an own affair. What is the NP going to do? Are they going to deal with free settlement areas as an own affair or, contrary to this department’s objectives, are they going to deal with them as a general affair? They cannot serve two masters, or will they again, as is always the case with the Government’s so-called reform, wait until it becomes popular and then follow who they think is in the majority?

We also heard from the hon the Minister of Law and Order today about what people should do to get their way. Of course, as hon members said in unison, the answer is: “Boycott”. If one does not have an understandable policy, simply boycott it. It seems to me that people who want free settlement areas, should simply boycott.

What is even worse, is that the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning has identified three Acts as being obstacles to negotiation—the Group Areas Act, the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act and the Population Registration Act. This department needs each one of those very Acts to implement its objectives. It needs the Group Areas Act to be able to say where one can conduct one’s own affairs. The Reservation of Separate Amenities Act is necessary to determine who may go in there and the Population Registration Act is necessary to determine whose own affairs one is promoting. A negotiated future is therefore by definition, according to the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, being handicapped by this very department’s activities.

To hide behind the CP, is also not good enough, because what the CP did for Boksburg, the Government is doing for South Africa. [Interjections.] In the end we can just as well say that this Government is turning South Africa into the Boksburg of the world and the NP is the CP of the world. Actually, there is no real difference. [Interjections.]

Let us again look at the whole question of free settlement areas. For example, how is the department going to conduct itself with regard to this question, because those who want to live there, are the very people who do not believe in own affairs. We then return to the old days of the NP, the early 1950s, when the Coloureds were defined by exception.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member whether they are also going to allow the hon member for Claremont to join the new alliance?

If he applies, we will consider it, just as we would if the hon member applied. [Interjections.]

If one is not quite White and also not quite Black and one is not an Asian either, then one is by definition a Coloured. All that has happened now, is that we have acquired a new group—the non-group group. If one is neither White, Black, Asian nor Coloured, one becomes an ordinary true South African. The new legislation simply says that this will be a new group area for ordinary good South Africans.

Where do we begin then? We then begin with a new round of social engineering. Is this department, as in the case of the group areas, going to buy up the houses of those people who will be in such a mixed area, and then sell them again at the highest price to the true South Africans who want to live in open areas? No, I think we can forget about hiding behind the CP and about pretending that the new leader-in-chief of the NP is now the great “Gorby” of the South. I am telling hon members that as long as we stand here defining and debating own affairs, a negotiated future is not possible. Those three laws which are still on the Statute Book, are going to make the business of this department impossible if they remain there.

Let us therefore first talk about the removal of those three laws, before we start talking about perestroika.

Mr Chairman, I am not going to comment on what the hon member for Greytown said. The parties to the left of the Government, however, remind me of the story of the old Bulldog Lance tractor that became stuck in the mud. The driver left the puffing, shaking old machine which was gradually sinking deeper into the mud, and ran off to call his oubaas. When they eventually reached the spot where the old tractor had stood, nothing could be seen of it except a bubble now and then escaping from the deep.

The old farmer removed his hat, bowed his head and said solemnly: There lies my faithful old Bulldog Lance. Rust in peace. [Interjections.]

*Nevertheless I do not want to talk about ploughing fields, but about rural councils, for which provision is made in the Regional Services Councils Amendment Act, 1988. I recently had the privilege of attending a special regional services council debate of the Free State Agricultural Union in Bloemfontein where this concept was discussed by the farmers of the Free State. After a long, heated debate, regional services councils were accepted in principle—by a strong majority, but with a few reservations with regard to a more fair representation, services available to agriculture and alternative methods of funding, as well as the levies payable.

If I can regard the views of the Free State farmers as being representative, I take the liberty of drawing the conclusion that the majority of farmers in South Africa are reasonable, sensible, law-abiding citizens who accept that the Regional Services Councils Act and every other law in this country must be obeyed. The cautious approach can be attributed to the initial communication problems between the agricultural sector and the legal draftsmen, and also to initial insufficient marketing at the outset.

However, the undertaking which the hon the Minister made to the effect that the objections of the agricultural sector were negotiable, cleared the air to a large extent, and for that I want to thank him sincerely on behalf of the agricultural sector.

Nevertheless, something else has become clear to me. More and more farmers are beginning to clinically cut through layers of prejudice, negativism and politicising, and are beginning to realise that these rural councils hold exciting possibilities which can be used to the great advantage of agriculture and of rural inhabitants. The real extent of the possibilities which they hold, are gradually beginning to take shape in the mental world of the agriculturalist, as he realises that he is not dealing with a dead law, but with a living organism, which can grow and grow in order to adapt to the changed demands and the unique needs of agriculture in a changed world.

In my experience, agriculture is already limbering up to meet this great challenge. And what a challenge it is! Now, for the first time, agriculture is entering the hitherto foreign area of third tier government, and it may not allow itself to be robbed of this decisive bargaining power by senseless in-fighting.

Rural councils offer a valuable instrument whereby bottle-necks can be identified within agriculture and agricultural fields, to determine its own priorities and to fight for agriculture’s share of the cake by having a say and participating in regional services councils. The success of this will depend on the quality and the initiative of leaders in agriculture who are going to be brought to the fore. The rural councils are therefore an own affairs instrument whereby the farmer can escape from his hat-in-hand syndrome, raise his head and look the world squarely in the eye, because for the first time he himself can effectively participate in the improvement of his own living conditions and those of the people around him.

Furthermore, agriculture is now obtaining a strong partner in local authorities. After all, the fortunes of the farmer, his environment, his labour and his town are all intertwined. The regional services councils have the potential to develop their powerful co-operation mechanism whereby common problems such as poverty, population development or population explosion, urbanisation and the availability and affordability of services can be effectively addressed. They can also provide a forum for a successful development strategy with regard to planning, pro-active action and the establishment of small businesses in the rural areas such as agricultural processing industries—a powerful development study group, therefore, with teeth.

It is therefore clear that we are dealing with the welfare of people and communities. The issue is one of the quality of life of the farmer, his family and his labourers and their families within their own world. The issue is therefore one of basic prerequisites for a happy, stable and forward-looking community. The issue is one of solid building blocks for future structures in which our children and grandchildren can live safely. What is also of primary concern is what one’s conscience tells one is right. I cannot sum up what I have said any better than by quoting from the moving poem or prayer by Lina Spies called Paternoster vir Suid-Afrika. I quote from the closing verse:

May agriculture have a share in dealing out lots by means of rural councils so that there is no unnecessary spilling of blood in this country of ours.

I thank the Government on behalf of organised agriculture for making the amendments possible so that agriculture will ultimately have access to this important third tier whereby, as a result of devolution of power both these partners will be able to work and fight together for a better South Africa for the future.

Finally, I want to come back to the CP and give them credit for their one argument which is valid, and that is that their town councils act within the law. I also want to tell them that many stupid things may be done within the law; they can ask any student. I want to challenge the CP and tell them that they cannot name one town council under NP control that has placed the reform process in reverse gear. What is more, they cannot name an NP controlled town council which has not brought about an improvement in the living conditions of its people to a greater or lesser extent during the past five years. [Interjections.] If they can think of one they can tell me, but I am saying that they will not succeed. [Interjections.] With the assistance of these rural councils we are going to be progressively engaged in reform in order to improve the circumstances of everyone in this country so that everyone may have his or her rightful place in the sun. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I have no time to reply to the hon member for Smithfield’s speech. In any case, it was a fine speech. [Interjections.]

†If there is one thing I believe that we should have learned out of the debacle of Boksburg and Carletonville then it is that one cannot delegate power downwards to local authorities unless their power to discriminate or not to discriminate is determined and for curtailed by, for example, a Bill of Rights.

If one does not curtail their rights to discriminate, one does not get rid of racial discrimination, as illustrated in this case—something which devolution of power was supposed to achieve. All one achieves is to replace the authority that presently discriminates, that is the central Government, with a new authority, and that is the local authority.

That is why I believe the report of the South African Law Commission on group and human rights should be welcomed. Had their proposed Bill of Rights been law and had our courts been able to enforce this law, as the South African Law Commission recommends, Boksburg and Carletonville would not have been able to reintroduce petty apartheid in parks or wherever.

I do not, however, believe that we should only express our concern at local authorities that reintroduce petty apartheid. I believe that hon members of the NP are guilty of gross hypocrisy when they attack the CP for reapplying park apartheid in Boksburg while they, at the same time, condone the enforcement of the crudest form of petty beach apartheid in, for example, the Strand.

This is a photograph of beach apartheid in the Strand. This sign is presently on the beach at the Strand. Every 300 metres these red and black signs appear. It reads as follows:

[Interjections.] Those hon members of the NP cannot point fingers at the CP. They are exactly the same. [Interjections.]

The number of NP-controlled local authorities that still apply petty apartheid and still erect apartheid signs on beaches, toilets and elsewhere, are too numerous to mention here today. It is outrageous that hon Government members should accuse the CP of racism in Boksburg while they still apply racism in their own municipalities and constituencies.

I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to ensure that no further powers are delegated to local authorities until a Bill of Rights is accepted which will prevent local White authorities, inter alia, not only from reintroducing but also maintaining existing apartheid measures, whether this be the case in Boksburg or in the Strand.

*The hon member for Smithfield said we had to give an example of a municipality which had abolished and then reintroduced apartheid. Here I have a photograph of Mossel Bay. During the Diaz celebrations in Mossel Bay last year, all these apartheid signs were removed. They did not want to offend the people from overseas. The hon member for that constituency is not here now, but I would like to know whether those signs have been replaced. Are those apartheid signs on the beaches of Mossel Bay today? [Interjections.] If so, that hon member will have to accept the fact that he has no right to talk about Boksburg … [Interjections.]

I am tired of hearing the NP side of the House accuse the hon members of the CP, with whom I have nothing to do, of apartheid and racism so piously. [Interjections.] The hon members of the NP do it in their constituencies. They do exactly the same. [Interjections.] In the Strand they are dragging South Africa’s name through the mud. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is with a certain degree of amazement that I can agree with something the hon member for Claremont said, and I am referring to his good words about the report of the South African Law Commission. Unfortunately I cannot answer his questions about Mossel Bay. I would rather express myself in favour of the views of the hon member for Yeoville who heaped praise on the good work being done, inter alia, by the welfare services and the church organisations. I also want to agree with the hon member for Algoa who pointed to the necessity for the better utilisation of existing housing.

Today I want to refer to redevelopment with a view to furnishing welfare services. I also want to recommend the adoption of an entrepreneurial approach to the utilisation of housing. In the Venter report the importance of increased density is mentioned, but it is also mentioned that social factors involved in decision-making have not yet been comprehensively researched.

In looking at certain trends which have manifested themselves this century and which, in my opinion, will have an impact on the housing policy, I merely want to touch briefly on a few of them. Firstly there is the aging community and, secondly, the increase in single-parent families. In a study undertaken in Pretoria the HSRC expressed the following finding:

There is also the fact that White women are entering the labour market; 43,2% of them are already working. Equal status is being given to men and women in the workplace, including their housing benefits.

There is also a very interesting concept, the Life-style concept, which is well utilised in the marketing sphere. It relates to the fact that one organises one’s life to give expression to one’s interests, that one has an extroverted life-style and that the whole question of where one is living and internal space actually become less important. When one looks at this, it seems as if there will increasingly be higher density housing needs, but also as if there will be an increasing demand for social services as far as the aged, children and married couples are concerned. In South Africa there is nevertheless an established tradition of one family per property, and it is this I should like to refer to, because I feel it is an opportunity we should make use of or exploit by way of redevelopment before decay sets in.

At the South African Building Institute, in 1986, Jill Strelitz made the following interesting statement at a symposium:

As far as welfare housing is concerned, I want to focus on the possibility of using the home itself as an infrastructure for the implementation of welfare services, including the fact that it presents an opportunity for entrepreneurship in furnishing welfare services that can meaningfully be developed.

Part of the activities of this department lie in examining obstacles. When a municipality wants to redevelop an aging area, it is normally confronted by two obstacles. The first is the inequality in the regulation of the subdivision of properties. The second is the high cost of introducing re-reticulation for new residential areas.

I think it is true that municipal councils can fruitfully examine redevelopment, that investigations should be instituted into redistribution and that there should also be an examination of whether the welfare needs of the community cannot be better served by introducing re-reticulation so that increased housing density is possible.

A further important obstacle to the furnishing of welfare services is to be found in the matter of physical norms occurring in the legislation in the other departments of the Administration: House of Assembly. If the State should less specifically be served, and the individual more specifically, and this process of increased housing density were to continue, the question that could fruitfully be posed would be whether the physical norms prescribed by law are still valid.

Here I want to refer more specifically to the Children’s Act, Act No 33 of 1960, as amended. Here we are speaking about the establishment of créches, for example. When a woman who is an entrepreneur wants to start performing a service, she is confronted by a quagmire of regulations. She is faced with a reasonably large investment which she must immediately make. What is more there is then a long run-up period before the project gets off the ground, a period in which she is earning no income. In other words, what one sees is suitable individuals frequently being dissuaded from providing a service because the required physical norms are actually too stringent.

Another interesting development in recent times has been the establishment of play groups. At present representations are being considered by the Free State ministerial representatives, representations in which, inter alia, requests are being made for the relaxation of physical norms such as those provided for in the Children’s Act.

Municipal councils, in conjunction with the Department of Health Services and Welfare should, when such an application is received, realise that a need exists for that service. They know that in co-operation with one another they have the necessary control procedures. They realise that the play group association is organised on a nation-wide basis. Yet the overall decision is ultimately reflected to the point where the physical norms for housing determine the ultimate decision.

I should therefore like to suggest that in furnishing welfare services we should not only rely on State funds and look to church, welfare and service organisations for this purpose, but should liberate the entrepreneurship of the individual by relaxing unnecessary physical norms and even motivating the individual to participate in a meaningful redevelopment of an an aging residential area, and what is more that the home, as a source of income, could possibly be one of the most fruitful themes for a socio-economic study as a factor in increasing density, as the Venter report also envisages.

It is specifically because of the Official Opposition’s insensitivity to these social trends and needs that they have been heading for such a fiasco in Boksburg. If they had only tried to calculate what the resulting harm to race relations would mean, they would perhaps have foreseen the disruption of the economic environment for the foreseeable future, and even they would have realised that they were affecting the very fabric of society.

We must not forget that this department serves the community, that by providing housing it furnishes a service that the community needs, and that when we also take the social norms into consideration, it is actually very important for us to think innovatively, to act innovatively and perhaps to redevelop older residential areas with a view to the utilisation of already existing infrastructure.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the hon member, Mrs Jager, the last speaker before my reply to this debate, sincerely for her contribution. I think she made a very good contribution on this subject, which deserves further consideration. I shall gladly pass the ideas she expressed here on to the Development and Housing Board and see whether we can develop any further policy in this connection. I think it is important to have greater density in South Africa. Our land is scarce and we need it. I think we can use the ideas she expressed here beneficially.

We have reached the end of a pleasant and interesting debate which also yielded interesting points of view this afternoon, to which I shall refer in a moment. I want to reply briefly to hon members and then, as I indicated, make a few announcements to this House concerning developments in the sphere of local government. In fact, I shall then indicate to the hon member for Witbank that considerably more functions and powers are being added to this department, because he is apparently worried about this department shrinking or disappearing.

First, however, I should like to make a few personal announcements. Firstly I want to convey my appreciation to the six ministerial representatives for their contribution to the activities of the department and for the co-operation and fellowship I received from each one of them. In fact, these representatives are doing an exceptional job in the housing sphere, as well as in the other disciplines they represent.

Then, too, I should like to associate myself and my department with the words of the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council to Mr Wessels Meyer, the Director-General, who is retiring in the course of the year. I should also like to say that I have come a long way with him over a period of 15 years, both in an official and a personal capacity, and I have only the highest esteem for him and his wife, Sophie. I want to thank him for his loyalty, and wish them everything of the very best.

I should also like to thank my departmental head, Mr Callie Reynecke, and the personnel for the unstinting way in which they manage the interests of the department and also for the loyal cooperation I receive from them.

In this department a number of persons, to whom I should like to refer, have been promoted. Mr P A Stopforth has joined this department with promotion as Director of Local Government from the Department of Development Planning. He is making a very sturdy contribution. Mr Nico van Rensburg has been promoted to director in the ministry, where he is of exceptional value, particularly to members of Parliament, and also assists in making information available. There are various other officials who have joined the department, namely Mr K H Fischer, Mr C J van Niekerk—he is the new regional representative in Cape Town—and Mr B Böhmer, who is the new regional representative in Natal. I should like to thank these gentlemen, too, for the service they are rendering in the department.

I have on a previous occasion indicated that Mr W J v d M Marais, who was chairman of the National Housing Commission for years, and who was also chairman of the Development and Housing Board for several years, retired at the end of last year. I have already conveyed appropriate words of appreciation to him.

I wish to inform this House that as from 1 January this year, Mr J G M van Straten, also chairman of the Estate Agents’ Board, is the new chairman of the Development and Housing Board. Mr C du P Kuun, chief executive officer of the Saambou National Building Society, is the vice chairman. Rev H R Visser of Pretoria, Mr S B Myers of Cape Town, Mr R B Viljoen of Durban and Mr J van Zyl of Welkom are the other board members. The executive committee of the board consists of Messrs J G M van Straten, C du P Kuun and Rev H R Visser.

I should also like to convey my sincere thanks here to Mr J N Swart, who for several years was a member of the board. I also want to thank him for the very good services he rendered, and wish him everything of the best.

On an occasion such as this it is also a privilege for me to thank my personal staff sincerely for the good work they are doing and for the absolutely loyal co-operation they have given me. My private secretary, Mr G J Wissing, was also promoted to the rank of assistant director recently. He is in his seventh year with me, and I just want to say that the team that works with me is a good one.

I just want to refer to one housing aspect, and then furnish hon members with certain replies to their questions.

The hon member for Yeoville also expressed his concern yesterday, as all hon members have done, in connection with the possible availability of funds, particularly if one looks at the housing of the aged, and even of the middle-income group. I just want to refer to one source in connection with this aspect, which I think in a sense also gives peace of mind to the Whites, and that is that the assets of this Development and Housing Fund, administered by the Development and Housing Board, stood at R901 million on 31 March last year. Basically these assets consist of immovable property belonging to the board, as well as the balances of loans granted for the purpose of construction and carrying out approved residential, housing and amenity projects. It is a revolving fund and for the 1989-90 financial year the interest earned by the fund is estimated to be an amount of R69 million while repaid capital ought to provide the fund with an additional R48 million. This entails that this fund, independently of the Exchequer, will generate out of its own resources an amount of R117 with which these new services can be financed. Together with the net addition, ie the appropriation to the fund from the Exchequer plus accumulated cash reserves, the total amount which will be available in the 1989-90 financial year for the financing of the activities of the Development and Housing Board—their activities are directed at the Whites—will come to approximately R211 million.

In the present financial climate the fund is of value as an asset for the White population group because, in the midst of stringent financial disciplines and saving measures in the Government sector, it enables the department to continue its housing provision programme at a stable and even accelerated rate.

The resources of the fund are also conducive to forward planning because this to a great extent eliminates uncertainty. Without the fund it would not be possible to give consideration now to the launching of new projects to the value of approximately R100 million as an addition to the current projects on the building programme, which still have to be completed at an amount of R207 million.

The complete building programme includes projects to meet the most urgent needs, for example homes for children and handicapped persons, places of care for children, housing and services for the aged and housing for the low income group. The preparation of the building programme for the coming year will soon have been completed. I am saying this once again as a further illustration of the fact that there is a certainty that a considerable amount of money is available annually from this source in order to make provision for housing projects for Whites.

Now I want to refer briefly—in view of the time limit—to the hon member for Witbank. He discussed a few matters here. In particular he asked whether own affairs would be expanded. I shall indicate to the hon member in a moment what specific further functions are coming over to the department.

I do want to tell the hon member though that the situation in South Africa is not so simple and simplistic that in future people will only have a choice between Hillbrow and Boksburg. I think that if he engages in the politics of the day on that level that member is going to wake up to reality with a start one day.

The hon member also referred to the issue which the hon member for Middelburg touched on here yesterday in connection with specific allegations which presumably appeared in a newspaper report on a company. The hon member then asked a question—if I remember correctly—about funds ostensibly made available by the Department of Manpower. This is not a matter which I or the department have to accept responsibility for, and I want to suggest that the hon member for Witbank and the hon member for Middelburg take up the matter with the hon Acting Minister of Manpower, Mr Eli Louw, and discuss the matter further with him. It is not, as far as I can ascertain, the responsibility of this department.

I want to thank the hon member for Sundays River for his contribution. I think the hon member was very effective in his performance this afternoon when he pointed out the detrimental decisions of the town council in regard to the sportsgrounds in Brakpan. In fact, the reaction of the hon member for Potgietersrus clearly demonstrated that he and his party had been hurt during the speech made by the hon member for Sundays River. [Interjections.] To tell the truth, the hon member for Potgietersrus still wanted to teach the hon member for Sundays River a few lessons on ethics which we have to apply to one another in this House, and then he himself was not even present shortly afterwards when other hon members reacted to him. That was just in passing.

The hon member for Potgietersrus does not expect a reply from me, because his debate was with the hon member for Sundays River. In fact, the hon member never really looked in this direction. For most of the time his attention was focused in the other direction. I think he was hurt very badly today.

I must honestly say that I listened with interest to the speech made by the hon member for Parktown this afternoon. The hon member made an interesting speech on the issue of planning and development of residential areas, one which I should like to study further, and also refer to the department’s planners. I think the phenomenon of urban decay is something which occurs internationally, and in the nature of things this is a facet to which one must give attention in a scientific way.

The hon member for Algoa made a fine comment on Cradock Place—which I think is one of the best Government villages in our country—and I should like to thank the hon member for the speech he made here. In regard to the question of Algoa Park and the making and upgrading of improvements and the provision of facilities there, I am pleased that we were able to spend quite a lot of money through the department to improve the lifestyle of the inhabitants there. I shall submit the matter of a reduction in rental to the Development and Housing Board once again, and see whether any further progress cannot be made in this direction too.

The fact remains that we are engaged in negotiations in order to make suitable housing available. If it should materialise it will fill a very substantial number of the empty flats. Consequently I shall keep the hon member informed of further developments. In fact the hon member has an intense interest in this sphere and I want to thank him for the way in which he is dealing with this matter as well.

I really enjoyed the speech made by the hon member for Pretoria Central this afternoon. He pointed out very effectively the inconsequential behaviour of the CP town and city councils, and I think he illustrated the point very clearly that the more the CP has to deal with the realities of South Africa, the more they get into trouble. [Interjections.] I thank the hon member for his contribution this afternoon.

†The hon member for Groote Schuur made an interesting speech this afternoon to which I will give further consideration.

*While the hon member for Greytown was making his speech it was very clear to me that he was a little nervous, because there were a few things he was trying to make us believe. Yet it was very clear that he did not know where he or his movement were going. As regards the approach of the Administration: House of Assembly I want to tell the hon member that I do not have time now to debate the free settlement areas with him, but I just want to refer him to Hansard, House of Assembly, vol 26 col 15717 of 1988, when the hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council also stated the positive policy approach of the Ministers’ Council and the Administration: House of Assembly very explicitly in this House. It was a positive approach in regard to the establishment of free settlement areas. The hon member would do well to take note of what was said.

I should furthermore like to thank the hon member for Parow sincerely for his contribution to this debate. He dealt very effectively with the hon member for Potgietersrus this afternoon. What is important is the fact that the hon member once again applied the criterion to the CP of the intentions they had spelt out in their manifesto on their approach to and decisions on participation in regional services councils and the destruction of these bodies, and the question of whether they are indeed, now that they have gained control over certain town councils, going to implement that resolution. [Interjections.]

The question arises—the hon members are saying “of course”—whether the Official Opposition or their leaders are going to take steps against those members of their party who are ignoring those resolutions which they adopted.

Surely it is not necessary.

The hon member says it is not necessary. Those decisions which they took at the time of the election and which are stated in their manifesto are therefore no longer necessary.

We are all in agreement on this score, and that is why it is not necessary.

The hon member for Potgietersrus is falling into a trap here, because is now starting to go back on what he said. What he is now saying is that the hon members of the CP are simply at liberty to participate in the regional services councils. [Interjections.] The hon member for Middelburg is conceding that I am correct, while the hon member for Potgietersrus does not agree with it. [Interjections.] I accept what the hon member for Middelburg says, because he is a local government man and he should like to see participation in orderly local government in South African being advanced. [Interjections.] The hon member for Potgietersrus, however, is fanatically opposed to the regional services councils.

The fact of the matter is simply that the CP cannot escape reality. Following that important decision which was taken last week by the West Vaal regional services councils, to which the hon member for Parow referred, I am now asking the CP whether they are going to act in accordance with their intentions which they put to the voters during the municipal elections, or whether they are going to support and develop the regional services councils. [Interjections.]

This afternoon the hon member for Potgietersrus wanted to debate the Vote with me, but then failed to speak to me about it.

Why do you use the last speaking turn to ask the question? Why did you not ask before so that we could have replied at that stage?

Order! We cannot allow an hon member to have three turns to speak.

I want to give the hon member for Potgietersrus some very very good advice. The hon member for Potgietersrus is going to talk himself out of this place quicker than a person can say Jack Robinson. [Interjections.] What I find interesting is that a point of order has been raised to ask, for example, whether regional services councils also fall within the jurisdiction of this department. I want to tell the hon members they should read the Act for a change, because this department and the Administration: House of Assembly has a material jurisdiction in regard to the establishment of regional services councils.

Can an own affair also be a racially mixed matter?

Order! There is a way of asking questions and that is by means of the Chair.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon Minister a question?

Mr Chairman, I heard the hon member’s question when he shouted it from his bench. It is therefore not necessary for the hon member to put his question again. He can resume his seat.

Consent to the determination of the boundaries of a regional services council is such a matter. The demarcation of boundaries, the appointment of chairman, appeals against decisions, identification of functions and consent to the establishment of regional services councils are all part of the functions of this department and myself. Therefore I should just like to emphasise the point that the contributions made by own affairs administrations to the establishment of regional services councils is a positive contribution towards promoting and expanding the interests of the people served by this administration.

Next I want to refer to the hon member for Smithfield and thank him for his contribution in regard to rural councils, as well as his contribution for expanding the concept of rural councils and promoting greater understanding for them among our agricultural community.

The hon member for Claremont came into this House, made a short speech and then left. I do not think the hon member really expects a reply to what he said today.

I want to present a few aspects of local government to this House today. I should like to thank the hon members who discussed this subject during their participation in the debate, namely the hon member for Middelburg, the hon member for Bellville—whom I thanked yesterday—and the hon members for Pinelands, Constantia, Witbank and Sundays River for their interest in local government affairs.

As regards the transfer of local government functions I should like to say that I explained to the House of Assembly last year during the debate on the Vote that the identification of functions for transfer was a complex matter which of course required a great deal of investigation, attention and negotiation. We had to make certain that each function that was identified could be justified on jurisprudential grounds in terms of sections 14 and 16 of the Constitution. The local government powers identified in respect of the Transvaal, the Cape and the Orange Free State are ready to be included in a proclamation which will transfer these functions. The proclamation will be published before 31 March this year in order to come into operation on 1 April. This transfer will take place simultaneously with the transfer of personnel and funds to the Department of Local Government, Housing and Works.

In connection with Natal I am holding discussions with the Administrator of Natal with a view to the way in which this subject will be dealt with in practice. On this occasion I want to convey my thanks and the thanks of the department to the Administrators and the MECs of the provinces for the good spirit in which the talks and negotiations occurred and for the assistance which the officials of these administrations provided. Some of the functions to be transferred correspond to a large extent in the respective provinces. Naturally I cannot specify all the details, but I should like to mention the following as examples.

Firstly, all powers dealing with township establishment and the control of land use, except as so far as these related to the Township Board or a services appeal board. Since virtually the whole of this ordinance is being transferred, it also includes policy-making functions, such as provisions which can be included in a town-planning scheme. For that reason, certain powers will also be vested in this department which will enable us to give attention to the question of dealing further with zonings in urban area for example. This is an aspect which the hon member Mrs Jager also referred to this afternoon.

Secondly, elections in local governments of which the area of jurisdiction and the declared local government area correspond. Further functions are the powers dealing with alienation and leasing of immovable property owned by a local authority; the power to grant approval to local authorities, to grant a loan to sports clubs under certain terms and conditions; the powers dealing with the alienation, closure and renaming of streets and public places; the power of proclaiming a road within a local government area; the power to grant approval for providing business and office accommodation and matters concerning the appointment of a commission of enquiry.

With the exception of a few sections, the whole of the lifting of restrictions legislation is being transferred as far as it relates to restrictions or obligations binding on the owners of land situated within a declared administrative area and which relate to the amending, suspending or lifting thereof in the interests of development of a town in such an area. Finally I just want to mention the example of the powers contained in section 5(1) in the Alienation of Land Act which are at present being exercised by the Executive Committee of the Province.

As is apparent from the above, the ordinance dealing in the respective provinces with town planning and township establishment matters, in general, with the exception of a few provisions and insofar as the ordinance relates to the Township Board or a services appeal board, are being transferred to the Minister of Local Government and Housing in the Ministers’ Council.

A manual explaining to local authorities which powers are going to be dealt with by me and which powers by the administrator has been drawn up and is soon going to be distributed country-wide to local authorities. This was also something the hon member for Pinelands was concerned about. This manual was drawn up in close co-operation with the provincial administrations, the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning, the United Municipal Executive and the Commission for Administration. I think the hon member for Witbank would notice, if he gave attention to this matter, that the department is receiving material additional functions and that this makes a contribution to the expansion and not the diminution of the department.

I want to emphasise further that this transfer of functions must be considered as a first phase, and that further investigations will take place to establish what other functions can be identified in order to be transferred to the Administration: House of Assembly. In this connection the Ministers’ Council also took certain decisions and some of these functions, forming part of the second investigation, could include the following: Divisions dealing with the establishment, alteration, abolition etc of local authorities; provisions dealing with elections; and powers in connection with the general functioning of local authorities.

The ministerial representatives will also perform important executive functions in respect of local government as delegates in the region or province concerned. In this way we want to make the line of authority shorter.

In conclusion I want to thank the United Municipal Executive for the help this organisation has given me and my department. The United Municipal Executive is the mouthpiece of local government and also has an important role to play in the process of having functions transferred to the Administration: House of Assembly. In fact, we shall consult the United Municipal Executive again.

†I would also like to refer to the question of local councils which was raised in the debate. The Local Councils Act of 1987—an Act which was passed by this House—introduced certain new concepts on the independence of local communities. Such a council gives smaller communities the opportunity to take care of their own affairs and at the same time participate in regional services councils, so that they are able to develop into full-fledged local authorities.

Regulations which make it possible to establish local councils were published in the Government Gazette on 9 December 1988. Local councils are local authorities with limited powers. I have already stated that it is possible for local councils to develop into full-fledged local authorities, but the choice to become an independent municipality will be a choice of the residents of the area for which a local council has been established.

*With the abolition of divisional councils in the Cape, the local areas are being allocated to the Minister of Local Government and Housing as the local authorities for such areas. There are 65 local areas in the Cape which fell under the control of the divisional councils and which can therefore be allocated in this way.

In the area of the Western Cape Regional Services Councils, 39 local areas, and in the area of the Algoa Regional Services Council, 19 local areas have already been allocated. The department and I will therefore be responsible for a total of 123 existing local areas. For reasons of efficiency the Department of Local Government and Housing has appointed the regional services councils as agents. This is an indication to the hon member for Witbank that real new responsibilities have been added to this department.

Regional services councils which consists of all kinds of people, yes!

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Witbank is terribly worried about regional services councils. If he had made a study of the matter he would have seen them as a wonderful development opportunity in the regions of our country.

Before local councils are appointed, of course, investigations first have to be made, for example to determine whether the local area concerned is viable. Since most of the local areas still fall under the control of the divisional councils, the Administrator of the Cape is also being consulted. So far two local councils have already been established. On 20 December 1988 a local council for Buffalo Bay and on 2 March this year a local council for Constantia was established. At present 19 applications from the Cape are under consideration, while applications have also been received from the Transvaal and Natal.

I want to emphasise an important point. The levying of taxes by local councils will not differ materially from the way in which it is being done for the local areas concerned. Under normal circumstances the budget of a local council will be drawn up in such a way that the revenue derived from the area will be sufficient to render the necessary services there. It will not be possible to expect the department to provide other sources of finance.

The hon member for Smithfield referred to rural councils. So did other hon members. In this connection, therefore, I also want to touch upon a few matters, but just before I do so, while I am referring to the transfer of functions of the department, I also want to point out the position of the former Transvaal Peri-urban Areas Board. This matter was also investigated by the Commission for Administration. It was decided that the own affairs functions and the staff of the abolished Transvaal Peri-Urban Areas Board will be transferred, as an own affair, as planned, to the Administration: House of Assembly on 1 July 1989.

It was also decided that the controlling functions in regard to the 47 declared local government areas for Whites—these are the local committee areas—will be carried out in full by myself and the department. This allocation of functions of course entails further executive responsibilities, and that is why it was decided to allocate these powers to a statutory board under the control of the Administration: House of Assembly. Such a board must be established in terms of a law of the House of Assembly. The relevant Bill has already been submitted to the House of Assembly and will soon be considered by the house committee.

With the abolition of the former Transvaal Periurban Areas Board, this has been temporarily placed under the control of the Administrator of the Transvaal. Advisers have been appointed to provide him with advice. The administration of the Transvaal Peri-urban Areas Board, reached such proportions that it was necessary, with effect from 1 March this year, to appoint further advisers and, after consultation between the Administrator of the Transvaal and myself, Mr L J van Rensburg of Dullstroom for the Eastern Transvaal and Mr M Strydom of Orkney for the Western Transvaal, together with Mr Roelf Gouws as the other adviser, were appointed.

Furthermore I should like to say that the department and I are also looking forward to this responsibility which must emerge, which is another demonstration to the hon member for Witbank that further powers and functions must come to this House.

Finally I want to refer to rural councils. This is a very important development for our rural communities. The inhabitants of these rural areas are an inseparable part of the activities in the rural areas. These activities are firstly the direct interests of the inhabitants of rural areas in their environment. Secondly there are activities relating to indirect interests outside the areas of rural inhabitants, but which are also important, for example, the progress in adjoining regions, towns or cities of a particular rural area.

If I may interrupt myself for a moment I also want to point out the following aspect. An important development brought about by the regional services councils is the fact that nearby local authorities become more closely acquainted and make use of joint services, particularly the services of professional people, which therefore brings about a reduction of cost and this of course is in the interests of the inhabitants.

In order to look after the interests of the communities in rural areas, these rural councils have an important role to play in determining needs and priorities in those areas, and instituting investigations into further development. Rural councils will afford the rural community an opportunity to obtain full representation in a regional services councils. It also creates an opportunity for the rural community to participate in a form of decision-making and to have a say in determining priorities in regard to the provision of an infrastructure in a region.

What is also important is that these rural councils will not replace other organisations such as farmers’ associations in the rural communities. In fact they will be able to act in a supplementary way. This presents a bargaining power for the services rendered by the regional services councils. Rural councils, as a more long-term institution, will bring about stability for agriculture in particular since rural councils can be elected for a period equal to that of local governments in general. Rural councils, in addition, place no added financial burden on a rural community. Such a council has no power to levy taxes, and the administrative costs are borne by the Administration: House of Assembly.

In each area there is capital which can be utilised and which can be identified by the rural areas on behalf of the rural areas on the regional services councils. This entails cost advantages for these areas, because the rural councils ensure participation on a regional services council which is intent on causing development to take place, and this participation the rural areas acquire at the expense of their Administration: House of Assembly in the case of the White rural areas.

I also want to say that I find it gratifying that the hon member for Smithfield also referred to the situation in the Free State, to the positive approach and the same positive understanding of these matters there, and the rural councils were a concept the CP did not want to advance. The South African Agricultural Union also has a positive standpoint on the issue of rural councils. I think it is to be welcomed that the South African Agricultural Union, in its deliberations, adopted the standpoint that this union did not want to allow organised agriculture to become involved in political activities in any form, but that the correct thing to do was for farmers to take the initiative in establishing a rural council. Once the rural council has been established, and one has to proceed to elections, organised agriculture must not participate in such a way that a party-political involvement develops. The point that was made here was that the farmers of the SAA Agricultural Union must take the initiative of establishing rural councils.

They are making the best of a bad case, that is all!

The wise man from the North always has something to say.! [Interjections.]

A rural council which is also a juristic person, is an own affairs institution which is dealt with by me, as Minister entrusted with the own affairs of Whites in the area of local government. Whites in rural areas will have their own say, on behalf of rural communities, in dealing with their own interests.

Dealing with those interests does not end once the voting power as representative on regional services council has been exercised. There is also the competence to appeal to an appeal board on various decisions which may affect the regional services council and which they may take. If these involve matters affecting Whites, I am also a member of that appeal board. The progress made by rural communities is going to depend on their speedy establishment of rural councils and the proper and optimum use of the rural councils as a form of representation.

I have received an indication that basically the time for this debate has elapsed, and I conclude by thanking all hon members sincerely for their participation. It was a pleasant debate and positive contributions were made here. I also thank hon members for their interest in the activities in this department. The department and I gladly place ourselves at the disposal of those people who fall under this department.

Debate concluded.

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I should like to read a declaration on behalf of this side of the House. I am sure the remainder of the House will agree with me.

The LP totally identifies with the hopes and aspirations of the African section of the total Black community. Our future lies in finding each other and developing a closer togetherness. The events of Langa will eternally be created in our hearts and our minds. We can never forget the harshness and wickedness of the police action which resulted in the death and injury. However, although we do not forget, we will have to learn to forgive in preparation for the day of reconciliation.

I want to assure the remaining people of Langa and Norton that in no way do we support their forced removals. We have made representations before and lately again for their continued living where they are. The memory of the late Robert Sobukwe is alive with us today, the day of Sharpeville, which is a record of the sins of apartheid.

Mr Chairman, we on this side of the House endorse the sentiments expressed by the hon Leader of the House with regard to the people of Langa and the forced removals.

There are a number of questions that I should like to ask the hon the Minister. The hon the Minister has received a document from Leezamen Development in which certain irregularities were pointed out. This was also brought to the attention of the Town Clerk of Johannesburg Municipality. In view of the fact that this particular document is rife with accusations and irregularities, I should like to know from the hon the Minister if he is going to submit this document to the police for investigation? Furthermore, if there are irregularities, is he going to submit it to the Advocate-General?

Is it possible that this particular document could be taken into consideration if there are any irregularities in terms of regulation 0.26 of 1962, or if a member has made himself guilty of any misdemeanour? I should also like to know from the hon the Minister if that is the necessary qualification? This matter has now been going on for a long time.

*I want to refer to Rapport of 27 November 1988 in which the hon the Minister of Justice is quoted as follows:

He continues:

If the hon the Minister has this machinery at his disposal, I ask why he is still hesitating to activate this machinery which he has at his disposal.

Where were you yesterday?

I know, because I was here yesterday. I am referring particularly to this matter as regards Leisure Homes.

I want to return to a very thorny question, that is service charges which are a burden to our people. I cannot find fault with rentals. Rentals have decreased but I should like to ask whether something cannot be done concerning service charges at this point. The hon the Minister mentioned interest which has soared but we should also remember that the other part of our community falls in the lower-income group.

The hon the Minister himself is aware of this interest and redemption and he is aware of the fact that we now have a situation at Blue Downs that some rentals have shot up to as high as R700 to R1 000 a month. It is R1 500 a month in some cases. The hon the Minister referred to this nevertheless I ask what can be done about that situation.

What are the possibilities—this is a big question mark—of generating money? I am referring to this because I want to allude to the lower-income group. Money is generated by regional services councils. Is it not possible to build a system into these regional services councils especially for the lower-income group so that they may be subsidised from those funds temporarily but on the basis of a sliding scale according to people’s income.

I think that somewhere along the line that money should also be found, especially where less-developed areas are involved. This could help them. If I may return briefly to December of last year, there was an enormous number of evictions in the Mitchell’s Plain area where people could do nothing else because of high rentals. I request that something be done because this provides no solution to our problem. It actually adds to our problems and compounds them because at the end of the day these people who are evicted will squat on someone else’s property.

I should now like to congratulate the hon the Minister—he also mentioned the Delft area. He mentioned in his document too that preparations were being made for about 15 000 houses, but will Blue Downs solve this enormous housing problem for us who live in the Peninsula? Blue Downs skimmed off a little of the cream. The hon the Minister knows that we are faced with a housing crisis of about 40 000 houses in the city council area alone. The old divisional council has a waiting list of 22 000. If we add these two to that of the old Stellenbosch divisional council, the number of houses required at this moment is 100 000.

I cannot help having to mention Eulalie Stott to the hon the Minister. She said that the age of our average youth was 24. We have a very young community here. We have an explosion in our community. Our immediate need is a requirement of 100 000 houses. I do not know where the hon the Minister is to obtain the land but this problem has to be addressed somewhere; otherwise we shall be landed with that problem for ever. That is why I request the hon the Minister to take positive steps in this case.

This brings me to the next point which I want to mention briefly while I am taking the gap. I have been informed that Athlone is doing something but I do not know whether it is to be local management or a town council. I believe that they need not worry, however. Section 17 (b) of the Promotion of Local Government Affairs Act of 1983 was passed in the House. They therefore have every right to request those powers and to proceed. I think that they also wanted to change the name from the Athlone and District Management to the Athlone Town Council. I believe they need not worry. Here is the legislation; they can proceed with the matter and go and see the Administrator. I want to tell the hon member for Bonteheuwel that they have nothing to worry about; everything was prepared in the House.

Did the hon member react to that?

That hon member has every right to react.

They need not beg for those powers and duties. Everything was laid down in the legislation. They can even go as far as appointing officials. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is interesting to note how people try to mislead the House, especially the Official Opposition. I do not think they really understand what local government is all about.

Yesterday we spent a lot of time discussing the powers and functions of local government. When the Athlone District Management Committee asked for powers and functions they were not asking for autonomy as indicated by the former speaker.

It is with great concern that I am entering this debate today. Year after year I have continually put the case for the community, without any real tangible results. It is becoming increasingly frustrating as I am unable to deliver the goods to the community. In fact, I might as well again be serving on a local management committee without any powers and functions. [Interjections.]

For example, last year I spoke about the severe and critical shortage of land and houses, as well as the urgent need for the renovation of three-storeyed blocks of flats in Manenberg, Heideveld and Hanover Park. There may soon be a serious accident, so badly have those flats been built.

What about my plea for extra rooms to be built onto the many one-bedroom units that exist? These places are overcrowded; 18 to 24 persons live in a one-bedroom unit. It is now the fourth year that I am asking the hon the Minister to investigate the possibility of building houses on a large tract of land which is lying waste in Hanover Park. My question to the hon the Minister is how much longer we have to wait before any action is taken. How much longer before any results will be forthcoming?

Speaking about the shortage of land and housing I want to say that in the White areas there are large tracts of land lying vacant. Many houses and flats are standing empty. If one looks at the weekend newspapers one will see that many houses are up for sale in these particular areas. Our people are unable to buy there because of the Group Areas Act. We urgently need to find accommodation for our people. Here I want to put an open challenge to the City Council of Cape Town.

We have always pleaded for an open city, for direct representation on the city council, where people can live where they want and they can vote for whom they want. It must be remembered that it is the Coloured people of Cape Town who lived all over Cape Town but was forcibly removed from their homes in which they had lived for generations. Grant our people the freedom to live where they want to live. [Interjections.] In terms of the Free Settlement Areas Act the city council, which is so vociferous about people living where they want to live, being able to vote for whom they want to vote and being represented on the city council, should take advantage of the Free Settlement Areas Act … [Interjections.] … and ask that the whole of the Cape Town municipal area be declared a free settlement area, instead of being particular about the areas they want to be declared as free settlement areas, such as Sea Point and Woodstock. [Interjections.]

I believe that the city council should put its money where its mouth is.

I would also like to refer to Blue Downs and the provision of housing in that area. Originally Blue Downs was intended to provide affordable housing for people on the waiting list. It was hailed as a fantastic venture in order to alleviate the housing shortage and to lessen the waiting list. Great expectations and hopes were created. However, all hope has failed for many people on the waiting list. The houses which are provided there are too costly because most people on the waiting list are people who do not have a large income. It is people employed by State departments and local authorities who are able to purchase houses there because they receive a subsidy. Nevertheless, other people who are living there are people who are so desperate for homes that they have inflated their income and now they find themselves with the problem that the interest rates and the price of that essential commodity has increased. Therefore they are unable to keep the houses in which they find themselves at the moment. I wish to appeal to the hon the Minister to have another look at Blue Downs with regard to the provision of homes as well as the cost of land, which is escalating at an alarming rate. I believe that the cost of plots should be fixed so that people could be afforded the opportunity to purchase it.

The hon the Minister should negotiate with developers to provide affordable housing to the people on the waiting lists. To date no houses are being built in the Cape Peninsula, which means that the waiting lists have come to a standstill. The Delft area within the Blue Downs project has also been mentioned for the past three years. To date there has been no progress in the provision of houses in that area. People are desperate for homes. They are frustrated and tired of running from councils to MPs and to management committees, but to no avail. [Interjections.] I do not think enough is being done to alleviate the housing shortage in Cape Town.

I also want to call upon the hon the Minister to look at the possibility of amending the Housing Act, Act No 2 of 1987, in order to enable him to compel municipalities—especially in the case of the Cape Town City Council—to implement recommendations or decisions taken by the management committee. The Housing Board is another example of a toothless body.

It does not have the power to compel municipalities to implement the decisions of the Housing Board.

An example of this is our problem in Cape Town where the housing shortage is very serious. We need 40 000 homes. People are living here as illegals and many of them have been evicted and now find themselves on the streets. Some of these people have been living in their homes for five to 10 years. I have had meetings with the chairman of the Housing Board and have asked him to find ways and means to enable people to remain in these houses. The Housing Board arrived at the decision that there should be liaison between the management committee and the Housing Committee of the City Council and that only then a decision should be made as to whether these people should live in these houses. One decision arrived at was that people could remain in their homes if they had been living there for longer than two years.

The city council may not implement such a decision because they are not compelled by law to do so. Therefore, in spite of the Housing Board having taken these decisions, they have just been ignored totally.

Mr Chairman, the previous speaker confuses me, because, if I understood him correctly, he was passing a vote of no confidence on his own Minister in the speech he has just made. [Interjections.]

So much has been said about hon members’ wives who are now management committee officials. I wish to add that I am happy that more and more women are coming forward to run the affairs of our people. However, the majority of these women belong to the LP, and as far as I am concerned this means a vote of no confidence in the deputy leader of the LP.

This House will recall that the deputy leader, who is also Leader of this House, said that the Holy Koran mentioned that women were not permitted to hold public office. Since that statement was made—and I thank God for it—Pakistan has made a woman their prime minister. She has become the prime minister of a Muslim state with a population of 100 million people. Therefore, as this House has been misled, I suggest that the deputy leadership be given to the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture. [Interjections.] He has become the man who has done the most to improve the housing situation. Furthermore, I believe the post of Deputy Minister of the Budget should be given to the hon member for Bonteheuwel. If that is done, I shall join the LP. [Interjections.]

Reports in the media are creating the impression that areas such as District Six, Walmer Estate, Woodstock and Salt River are going to be declared grey areas, and this has caused very serious confusion and problems for our people in these areas. These speculations in the media have caused a chain reaction of exploitation by profit hungry landlords, agents and attorneys. [Interjections.] That hon member should behave a bit like an MP, please.

Because of what the media has done, tenants who have been living on certain properties for 40 years and more are now being evicted. Prices of land and property have skyrocketed. Our Coloured pensioners and our community as a whole are being sacrificed in the name of being opposed to apartheid.

The House of Assembly and our House own approximately 800 houses in the area I have mentioned. These houses represent the blood and sweat of our people and they were bought for a song. I appeal to our hon Minister to make every effort to have these houses sold back to our people. It should never be recorded in the history books that we could at least have healed some of these wounds by having the remaining properties sold back to the rightful owners.

So much is happening so fast in the area that I am unable to outline all that I want to say in the time I have been allowed. This goes especially for the houses under rent control. Hon members should please note that I have had the opportunity of discussing this matter with the Chief Director of Housing for the House of Representatives, Mr Du Preez. He actually wanted the facts in writing, but at this stage I feel it would be better if the hon the Minister of our House were to discuss the matter in depth with both other hon Ministers of Housing as well as the Chief Director of Housing in order to solve my problems.

Mr Chairman, permit me to say that I am pleased to take part in the debate on the Housing Vote. Hon members obviously know that there is a shortage of housing for our people in our country. I am pleased and delighted about the self-building scheme which is now being started in the Bloemfontein-Heidedal-Opkoms area. Ninety-one erven have been set aside for self-building projects there. As hon members know, in Bloemfontein … [Interjections.]

Order! Would the hon member take his seat for a moment. I shall not tolerate this talking across the floor. I appeal to hon members to respect the Chair. The hon member may proceed.

We have 91 erven for self-building in Bloemfontein which have had services for three years already. No houses are built in Bloemfontein unless the area has had services installed. The department’s previous information officer on self-building, Mr Daniels, was invited to Bloemfontein by me in 1986. He was invited to furnish the management committee with information from 21 to 28 July—that is almost three years ago. He also gave the public a slide show. Later we invited a certain Mr Hopkins who also supplied information. It gladdens one’s heart, however, to hear that the long wait has been worthwhile. Self-building will now be started in Bloemfontein and I have to tell the hon the Minister … [Interjections.] As the hon member has just put it, it was worthwhile. As I said, the erven have already been supplied with services.

Would the hon the Minister pay attention to the matter of self-building? Is it not possible to include the old area of Heidedal in the self-building scheme and to supply the inhabitants with material? In years gone by we started self-building schemes in Ou Heidedal, but I want to request that these people be given assistance. I have already asked the management committee and the manager of Coloured affairs in the area to see that owners in that area are supplied with the necessary material to improve their houses. I have already made various appeals to the management committee to upgrade this area but I have heard nothing so far. The manager of the area promised me that he would look into this but nothing has come of it yet.

Would the hon the Minister please furnish aid in the construction of pavements in the areas of Heidedal and Opkoms? I want to dwell on this for a moment. When one moves through a White area, one finds pavements everywhere which are well tarred, and in a good state of repair. When one is in Bloemfontein, however, one realises that all the streets are tarred but that the place does not have any pavements. Would the hon the Minister please ensure that this area is upgraded and that we get pavements.

I also want to know when a start is to be made on the first phase in Roodenberg. What progress has been made on the project? All the erven—the last erf was number 91—in Heideveld have already been developed and we now have a shortage of erven. An immediate start can therefore be made on the first phase in Roodenberg. I also want to request that arrangements be made for the second phase in Roodenberg so that we may know where we stand. Our children who get married have to live in their parents’ back yard or board with other people while there is a large area in Roodenberg which can be developed immediately. Would the hon the Minister please see that that area is developed, and infrastructure created and all our needs satisfied.

There are still cases in Heidedal of two families having to live in four rooms. These people must get houses. There is land available at Roodenberg which merely needs to be developed.

Mr Chairman, I want a correction to be put on record. In Rapport of 4 March 1989 a certain Pastor Roman of 20 Sugar Loaf Road, Manenberg alleged in a letter to the paper that the management committee and I had made a promise to the people of Heideveld on the upgrading of Heideveld. He also admitted in the letter, however, that I had had a quarter of Heideveld upgraded but had done nothing in Manenberg. I want to tell him that I made no promises. How can one make promises when one knows the Government does not have the money to advance?

I should like to inform him that I did more in Heideveld in the first two years than the management committee did in 10 years. The Cape Flats Sports Union thanked the Department of Community Development and me for the beautiful wall which was built around their sports fields. I was informed that they had struggled since 1970 to obtain a wall but the Cape Town City Council had always replied that there was no money. I donated two sets of posts which cost me R370 to the netball union. It is a pity that this person does not understand what long-term and short-term planning means.

I should like to request the hon the Minister today that those houses through which water poured in 1986 be sold to the inhabitants of Heideveld at a nominal price so that those people can upgrade their own houses. It is high time that all the houses were sold to people because those people have already been occupying them for the past 25 years and what were the erection costs of those houses at that time?

I want to ask the hon the Minister to go into this subject very seriously. I expect feedback on the hon the Minister’s progress in this matter. The time has come for us to forge ahead and forget about what happened in the past because a people is calling out in its misery and longing for help. We are the ones who will have to reach out and assist them. We shall have to forget these politics of confrontation in negotiations on finance. We shall have to pocket our pride. I agree with what the hon the Minister once said, namely that less-developed people are not concerned about politics but merely about a house and a job to keep their families alive. Today we have the problem of how to provide our people with houses. We require at least 10 000 houses a year to reduce that backlog. I must admit honestly today that it is difficult to be a Coloured because my people are rebuffed wherever they apply for help, even at their own people’s welfare offices and rental offices. Sometimes they do not know to whom they are talking because those people frequently do not wear pins bearing their names. Personally I regard the way in which our people are treated as reprehensible. People are sometimes frustrated, discouraged and embarrassed and then they are choked off by their own people as well. Here I also want to ask the hon the Minister to go into the matter and to warn those people because they are there and have been trained to assist our people at all times no matter how emotional they are because this all stems from frustration.

In Die Burger of 4 June 1988 one finds under the headline “Kaap begroot R39 miljoen vir huisvesting”:

It was also mentioned that more pressure should be brought to bear on the Government for more money for houses. She informed the committee too that 4 000 sites with services would be available this year but that 4 000 to 8 000 houses would be required per annum.

It also seems to me that fewer than 1 000 houses can be built. We shall have to build at least 10 000 houses a year to extinguish the backlog if more money is made available. I want to appeal seriously to the hon the Minister to go into this matter in depth and to approach the Cape Town City Council for financial assistance so that at least between 5 000 and 10 000 houses can be built for our people.

In Die Burger of 4 June 1988 Mr J S Rabinowitz referred to what the Administrator, Mr E Louw, had said at the opening of a new provincial hospital at Kakamas about the population explosion and the necessity for family planning. I quote him:

The only solution to the shocking population explosion is drastic family planning.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Heideveld appealed to the hon the Minister to press onwards, but how can that hon member lead his people forwards if their MP is straining backwards? The hon member must come back to the LP; then his people will see progress.

Go to Ceres, man!

To begin with, I want to congratulate the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing on receiving the award for the housing man of the year. He deserves it. I also want to congratulate him and his department on the publication of their departmental newspaper, In Novo.

I want to associate myself with the argument put forward by the hon the Minister and hon members that more powers should be delegated to management committees. By this I do not mean that I wish to strengthen the management committee systems. Management committees should, however, be given more powers until a stage is reached at which we obtain direct representation on municipal councils. It is true that management committees can perform their duties just as well as—and even better than—local authorities.

In this regard I wish to refer to Touws River. The former municipal council of Touws River obtained funds from the provincial administration in 1986 for a sports complex and a camping site. Today these two complexes are not yet in use because there was a misapplication of funds, as a result of which it was not possible to complete these projects. The municipal council spent R70 000 on the camping site. When one looks at it, it looks as if not even R10 000 worth of work has been done. This is a headache to the present municipality and management committee. I am convinced that the present management committee could have made far better use of this R70 000 if they had been given the opportunity to manage their affairs themselves in the interim.

I want to thank the hon the Minister for the three community committees which he has established in my constituency, namely in the Koue Bokkeveld, Prince Alfred Hamlet and Ceres/Bella Vista. The one for Touws River will shortly commence its activities. These community committees perform an excellent task since the planning is done in co-operation with the community, management committee, town council, divisional council, officials of the department as well as consultants who are co-opted. Only good results will be obtained from this. We are already seeing this happen.

I want to ask the hon the Minister to lend high priority to the provision of accommodation and community facilities to the Koue Bokkeveld and Prince Alfred Hamlet communities. These communities have made many sacrifices and gone without a great deal, because the people there have never had an opportunity to obtain a home of their own. I want to thank the officials for the fine attitude which they are displaying in the planning of these areas and I want to make a personal request to the hon the Minister to regard the provision of funds for development in these areas as a priority.

As far as Bella Vista and Ceres are concerned, I want to mention that the need for housing at present amounts to approximately 700 units, and not 300 as the municipality would like to contend. The need for the 400 concealed units arises out of the policy of that local authority that no provision whatsoever is made for accommodation for farm workers who live as close as 300 metres from the town. Even if a former farm worker has already been working in the town for two years, he still cannot get onto the waiting list for a house, because he formerly lived on a farm.

The Ceres municipality is making use of funds which the hon the Minister has made available to it, but it is still discriminating in the allocation of those houses. The housing sales campaign at Ceres is proceeding at a very slow rate at present. The people cannot buy their houses on the one hand because there are so many structural defects, and on the other hand because our people cannot afford them because the overwhelming majority of the tenants are seasonal workers. That is why I submitted a memorandum to the hon the Minister in which I appealed to him also to negotiate with the municipality in order to lower the selling price of the houses. My people are keen to buy those houses, but they want the prices of the houses to be lowered somewhat. I trust that the hon the Minister will accede to this request.

At Bella Vista there are 89 unserviced plots and there are 89 breadwinners who, for the past two to three years, have been prepared, given the opportunity to build houses by way of a self-help building scheme, to build them and move into them within two months. However, the installation costs of the services amount to approximately R450 000. The town clerk did, in fact, give an indication in 1988 that these services would be provided out of their own funds, but this has not yet been done. Funds have not yet been appropriated for this by the hon the Minister’s department either. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to help so that the self-help building project of approximately 89 houses may still be launched this year.

Lastly, I want to quote a portion of the hon the Minister’s speech in this House yesterday, in which he referred to the high costs of the provision of services:

I do want to ask the hon the Minister to investigate the possibility of divisional councils, regional service councils and municipalities playing a greater role in the provision of these services.

I want to highlight the difference between the costs of services and the savings in this regard per erf, only in my constituency, as follows. In Touws River services are provided by the divisional council at a cost of approximately R3 500 per erf. At Bella Vista this is done by the Ceres municipality at approximately R5 500 per erf. In Ceres a private company gave a quotation to a private concern, which amounted to approximately R9 000 per erf. On theoretical grounds, therefore, it would appear as if the regional services councils are best equipped to install cheaper services in the future, if this is practically possible. This may lead to a reduction in the prices of plots.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the hon Whips very much because I had been told that I would not have a turn to speak because I sit alone. I want to thank them very much. I know people try everywhere to put a spoke in my wheel but I am too clever for them. Proof of this is that my people voted me onto the management committee and this proves that I do my work. Now I have merely come to do my work here.

I want to thank the hon the Minister very much for the land which he allocated to the Housewives’ Club. Yesterday, at the opening of the Oasis, there were people who sat disparaging this hon Minister and other Ministers whom they had met. They do it at meetings too; they also denigrate management committees and the Parow town council. I do not permit my town council to be belittled. If any belittling is to be done, I do it myself.

This morning I had an interview with this town council and members of Parliament of the other House. I informed them about high rentals, not like this Ravensmead Civic Association which attacks the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing and me. We do not have people sitting on the pavements as a result of high rentals. I emphasised it this morning and I am doing it here too. As long as the Government does not eradicate shebeens, nobody will evict my people when their rentals are in arrears. [Interjections.] My people will not be evicted!

I want to thank the hon the Minister and his department for co-operating so well with me.

Our people have to pay rent, after which it is sent by post to Pretoria. In this way they remain in arrears with their rentals.

Up to the present I have worked well with the department but, if channels become blocked, I work directly with the hon the Minister. As long as channels remain open, I shall co-operate with the department. I also want to thank them for the collection of rent which they have to do at our offices and also for the negotiation regarding the way we set about dealing with outstanding rentals. I want to assure them that I myself train my officials. [Interjections.] They are capable of helping the department in the way in which people should be questioned and how they should be dealt with on the subject of why they cannot pay their rent.

Our greatest problem is in telling people that they have to pay rent. One has to find out what the person’s problem is, how many children he has, what he earns, whether any member of the family is ill, etc. The social situation has to be investigated. One then discovers whether the person is able to pay rent or not.

I want to associate myself with what previous speakers said, that is that rentals deductions should be calculated after it has been established what the person’s monthly deductions are. I appeal to the hon the Minister to get the three Ministers whom we have requested from the other Houses together as soon as possible so that we may discuss service charges. What hon members said is true. There are people in rented houses who pay more rates than we who live in our own houses. This matter must be put right.

There is something which I cannot understand. After I was suspended from the LP, hon members talked about the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing and the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council but now everyone is suddenly opposed to me. This worries me but, if an hon LP member is going to try to be clever in my constituency, I want to warn him not to do this. If he wants something, he must ask me. Oom Hansie has the courage to tell them this.

Tell them, Oom Hansie.

There is an hon member here who denies this but I know who he is. He is a young man. He will not receive the support of the UDF. He must leave Oom Hansie alone because I am too clever for him to deal with. They distributed a pamphlet which read: “Eers kos en dan ‘rent’”—just a mixture of English and Afrikaans. This is sheer rudeness. I was too clever for them and convened a meeting for last Thursday to which I invited all the people. I asked them at the time whether the UDF had solutions. There is a petition and people have to sign it but they are dissatisfied. What good does this do? The solutions which I proposed are possible. We shall fight for them. I hope that the Government will look after our people. Our people have certainly been neglected. We have worked for food and old clothes over the years. I maintain this is true! Others benefited from what the country yielded. Our children could not attend school. There were even benefits in this House before we came to this place but they no longer exist today. [Interjections.] If our people had been trained from the start, could have attended school and worked for decent salaries, we would have been far ahead of Whites today. They robbed us, however. It is a sin to rob people. I am thankful for those who have seen the light today. I am here today to bring everyone to repentance. People say one should not talk to the ANC but a Christian talks to everybody; their blood is on our hands. God says one should convert those people!

Yes, say it.

One must convert them! [Interjections.]

Order! Would hon members stop egging on the hon member for Ravensmead. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, one must go and convert these people. It is our Christian duty; one must not agree when they advocate violence. One must convince them to sit around a table. There is nothing wrong with negotiation; that is what one goes to do there. That is the most important aspect. Is one going to incite them or what is one going to do?

I next want to thank the hon the Minister for the erven which he put at my disposal. I have now heard of irregularities which are taking place but the hon the Minister gave Oom Hansie all those erven. Oom Hansie can testify before God today that he is an honest man. I do not permit myself to be bribed. Then I would dismiss an official. [Interjections.] I work for my money. That is why I can depend on my voters. There has never been any irregularity. I am in close contact with the hon the Minister’s department and, if something goes wrong there, I settle it with them immediately. They cannot sell an erf before I have given my permission. [Interjections.] That is where one’s success lies. That is why many hon members are afraid to fight an election now. They are talking about 1992. I shall mention their names and challenge them.

Go on, mention their names.

Just let them attack me, then I shall mention their names. They should not blame only those people. I am not in cahoots with those people but right is right. Just let them try. I am warning them.

Name them.

I have achieved success because I negotiate. I worked with officials for years, before the hon the Minister was appointed to his present position. I say again today that I do not crawl to anyone. I tell the hon the Minister what I have to tell him. I respect him but he is not to tell me what is best for my people. How long did people sit here without saying anything about our people? Since the LP has been here, our people are being discussed. Now matters are coming to light. Now the LP comes and says to me: “Oom Hansie, keep your mouth shut; you did nothing.” I fought with them. I fought just as hard as they did. [Interjections.] Today the hon member for Border who disparaged and abused his leader so badly is sitting here but they accept him. He can go on like that; he will not win a seat in East London. [Interjections.] Oom Hansie will win a seat without the LP.

It was fear that caused that hon member to return to the LP. He has returned five times. But Oom Hansie has never left and he will not leave. He is sure that those hon members will either throw him out or carry him to his grave. I shall sit here until they take me back and, if they do not do so, I shall show them that I will win that seat. [Interjections.] I do my work.

I have an appeal that I wish to make to the hon the Minister. I discovered a serious matter here today. It deals with houses which we sell to our people from municipalities. SATS has a totally different system and it is unacceptable to me. It works in such a way that they themselves buy the house from the municipality and then the person has to buy it again later because that is how their loans work. I should like the hon the Minister to go into this and see whether a change cannot be brought about because this means that such a person has to incur the expense twice. He first has to pay SATS and after that someone else in the form of rent.

Mr Chairman, I feel honoured to be able to speak here today. Firstly I wish to congratulate the hon the Minister on being nominated as the Housing Man of the Year.

I also wish to endorse and also to concur with the sentiments expressed by the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture when he states:

Public figures are responsible and answerable to the electorate, which is the community which they serve. An elected leader cannot therefore be arbitrary, and neither can he be selective, nor sectarian in his dealings with the community when it comes to the rendering of a service. Social upliftment and the improvement of the quality of life should transcend all else, whether it be personal differences or whatever. I therefore question the logic and the intention of those who raise objections when one works with, in conjunction with and in close co-operation with other elected leaders who are no doubt opinion makers and also decision makers of that community.

When one begins to work with the community one is suddenly accused of political duplicity. One’s bona fides come under close scrutiny; why, even one’s loyalty and commitment is called into question and becomes suspect. However, it is heartening to note that the malicious intent of these individuals who sow the seeds of doubt and discord is unfolding, and they are now gradually being hoist with their own petards.

I wish to place on record that the hon the Minister is to be congratulated on a job well done in Pietermaritzburg and surrounds, regarding the provision of land and of housing. We accept the fact that the provision of affordable housing will always constitute a problem varying only in intensity in various areas. The hon the Minister and the officials of his department must therefore be given full credit for introducing the concept of self-help housing. [Interjections.] For once our people now see the light at the end of the tunnel; that is, the possibility and the reality of owning their own homes. The permanency and security of tenure of a home forms the heart and soul of a happy and healthy society.

The hon the Minister has shown in no uncertain terms that he is sensitive to, and views with a sense of urgency and generosity the artificial restrictions which have been placed on our people in the pitiful allocation of land for the acquisition of housing.

The concept of self-help housing has many positive aspects for the community. I will not enlarge on these, but one of them is that people of a mere nodding acquaintance have become friends through working together. They have a sense of belonging in the community. However, while the situation in Pietermaritzburg and surrounds has been temporarily alleviated I must mention that in other areas of my constituency there exist some very serious problems.

The situation in Ixopo, for instance, justifies intensive investigation. While the village itself has a handful of Coloured people, it is surrounded by a cluster of Coloured settlements which can be best described as being in squatter condition. Because of the acute shortage of land in the Highflats area many families have chosen to occupy and rent small pockets of land from some of the landowners. These pockets of land are not smallholdings per se; the landowners have merely cut off or partitioned off areas which are leased out. These tenants therefore live under very rudimentary conditions without security of tenure. However, one has to sympathise with these landowners. While I do accept that this is an agricultural problem and the portfolio does not fall within the hon the Minister’s brief, I do feel that I should make mention of a very important fact. These landowners have resorted to this practice because of the many and the very unfair restrictions which are placed on the Coloured farmers with regard to access to finance for the development of their farms.

The area known as Kingston, which is within walking distance from the village, lacks the facilities and the amenities which many of us take for granted. These people eagerly await development in Ixopo.

One of the most pathetic cases is a little village called Amzinkulu in Transkei. While the farmers across the river in Natal welcome any shower of rain, these village folk view with a sense of foreboding and trepidation any prolonged downpour. These people have been experiencing floods since 1959—with the 1988-floods being the worst in living memory. Were it not for the very commendable efforts of the SADF in rescue operations and flood-relief flights, tragedy would definitely have struck. Even without the threat of floods the living conditions of these people are deleterious in the extreme. Their homes are inaccessible. Their roads—potholed, dusty tracks in winter—become quagmires in the rainy season. These people also eagerly await development in Ixopo.

While I fully appreciate the problems the department has with the Ixopo Health Committee concerning the high price of servicing the plots, sometimes the recalcitrant local authorities, I do urge the hon the Minister to do everything in his power to accelerate development—particularly in Ixopo.

Mr Chairman, to begin with I would like to react to the hon member for Ravensmead. It is high time that hon member also renounced violence, because he threatens us here every day. He is already threatening us with the big boss and I would like the hon member to refrain from doing so. [Interjections.]

Today I want to talk about forced housing in the sense that certain people in this country have been locked up unprovokedly. Some of them have been locked up for years. I just want to issue a warning that if Sandile Thusi dies as a result of the fact that he is not eating in order to win back his freedom, there is going to be trouble in this country which will make 1986 look like a picnic. [Interjections.] We must remember that on Good Friday services are going to be dedicated throughout the country to these people who are unprovokedly locked up for months and even years in this country without ever appearing in court. I want to make an urgent appeal to the hon the Minister of Law and Order …

Order! The hon member must return to the Vote under discussion.

Mr Chairman, I am talking about forced housing. These people are accommodated in prison without requesting to be ac commodated there. This falls under the housing Vote. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, certain detainees have sought asylum in the German Embassy and are hiding there at present. The hon the Minister of Law and Order should once again take action as he did previously and immediately revise and recall the warrants for their arrest so that they can leave the German Embassy.

What sort of housing is that?

That is forced housing.

The other matter that I want to raise today, is the question of people who live in the bush. Those people cannot afford the rental for the cheapest houses. In the Parkside bush in East London, people are living in houses made of plastic and sacking at the moment. I would like the hon the Minister to make provision for services to be provided for that community next to the sports fields in Parkside in East London so that they may at least have access to toilet facilities and water.

†It is a shame that there are people in this twentieth century who have to live on rubbish dumps and in the bush. We must not forget those people because they cannot afford any housing which can be erected. They do not have the means but they are also God’s people. We have to care for them too. If we can provide the services, the sewage and water, and I am sure we have the funds to provide basic shelters for those people, they can be taken out of the bush and reaccommodated in the communities they come from.

*Mr Chairman, these people are not rejects. There are many respectable people in the bush—people who live from hand to mouth. I am also appealing to the other hon Ministers. The people in the departments concerned must refrain from sitting in the office and working through file after file; they must get up and see to those people in the bush. They have already complied with my request. They must ensure that the people who qualify for disability allowances receive them. This is an urgent matter which requires our attention. These people are not only so-called Coloureds; there are also so-called Black people among them. We cannot reject those people simply because they have a black skin. They must also be taken care of. If the hon the Minister is not capable or competent enough to take care of them, he should liaise with the Minister concerned and ensure that they receive the facilities for which I am asking here in the House today, and also that they are eventually provided with accommodation.

We will have to lower our standards if we wish to accommodate those people. I want to make an urgent appeal today that a lowering of standards be allowed so that people from the Third World component in South Africa can also be accommodated.

Mr Chairman, it is a singular privilege to participate in this debate. As I have stated previously, I represent the deprived communities. It is a personal triumph for me if projects in my constituency become a reality. I want to express my sincere thanks and appreciation to the hon the Minister and his officials who played a significant role in finally having projects realised. Their willingness to travel through the constituency with me, at short notice, contributed greatly to eliminating a large amount of the unnecessary red tape. When I pulled certain local government officials up short, their standpoint was encouraging.

I should like to request the hon the Minister to grant ministerial approval for the following projects in Leeu-Gamka.

The relevant approval from the housing board has already been obtained. It is set out as follows: Prices of plots for housing purposes R3,07; donation of 5%, 15c; survey costs R93,32; services R203,46, which means that the total price of the plot amounts to R300, which the people can afford. The request is that the donation and any profit resulting from the transaction should be paid directly into the community facilities fund.

The following request to the hon the Minister relates to the business premises at Leeu-Gamka and is that those premises be sold by public tender at R2,50 per square metre plus a 5% donation with a development agreement that they be developed within two years. If two years sounds too long, my standpoint and argument is that the deprived should also be given the opportunity to become entrepreneurs. The pro rata costs of the land, the provision of services and the provisional capitalised interest, if any, must be paid back to cover the advances granted. Any profits resulting from the transactions must again be directly paid into the community facilities fund. The normal tender procedure must be adhered to and the hon the Minister must authorise the alienation of the above-mentioned land.

For hon members’ information may I also mention that I negotiated an ex gratia loan from the provincial authorities which will eventually lead to the establishment of the clinic with consulting rooms for medical practitioners.

My next request is that the hon the Minister should urgently investigate the possibility of taking over the old Nick de Bruin Primary School from the Sendingkerk so that it can be converted into a training centre which will fall under the Department of Manpower’s training programme, with the proviso of jurisdiction. Job creation will always be part of the upliftment programme, particularly in the Karoo.

As far as Loxton is concerned, I want to thank the hon the Minister and mention the fact that the Burton Block is now going to be upgraded and the building of 28 houses will commence because the project is at the stage at which tenders are being called for. The amount allocated for the water project as well as the establishment of infrastructure will bring great relief to this community that has been deprived for so long. I want to express my sincere thanks to the hon the Minister, Mr Anton Fuchs and officials who visited the towns in my constituency a few weeks ago and made positive contributions. I should like to request that pressure be exerted on the Koup divisional council to take up the maintenance loan of R18 600 for the renovation of the houses at Klaarstroom.

In Victoria West there is a remarkable understanding between the management committee and the local authority. This has contributed greatly to the community, all of us together, being able to obtain finality on projects in a short time, and I can now state that the contractors are already on site and that the community hall will be completed by November, the individual’s contribution between 69c and R1,13 which they will pay back per month on the loan. The mortuary will now become a reality because the municipal offices will be converted as soon as the hall is completed and the municipality has the offices it needs. As soon as the necessary infrastructure has been completed for the 250 houses and the renovation of existing schemes from maintenance funds in conjunction with job creation funds—I emphasise this—becomes a reality, the sales campaign can start, and my request to the hon the Minister is that the purchase price of the old schemes be reasonable. The structural plans also make provision for an old-age home and the application will soon be submitted for approval.

To come back to Loxton I want to mention that during September 1988 application was made for the establishment of a management committee at Loxton. On enquiry I learnt that the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning was the guilty party. I am asking the hon the Minister for urgent follow-up work to be done so that this management committee can be established.

The additional houses to be built at Murraysburg will bring great relief. The previous project involving 50 houses was a success, and I should like to express my thanks and appreciation for this. An application for the erection of a community hall has already been submitted to the Housing Board for approval. Nine serviced plots are already being developed by means of building projects based on a self-help building scheme at Prince Albert. The self-help building scheme has been launched and officials from the regional office at George are already working on the socio-economic survey where additions have been made so that I can identify projects.

The management committee participates in the surveys and they are done on a ward basis. My request is that the hon the Minister’s department support the application for 100 houses. My sincere thanks go to the hon the Minister for allowing departmental work on the street-lighting project which now enables the people to connect up the services. Owing to the fact that the local authority will do so, I want to ask the hon the Minister whether the consumer could pay the connection costs over a period of time, or even for these costs to be included in the loan if a person wants to buy a dwelling.

The infrastructure of 250 houses at Willowmore is already at an advanced stage, and soon foundations will be laid at this new extension. The application for the community hall will soon be submitted to the housing board for approval.

Hutchinson is a unique town which is now inhabited by our people. There is a lovely community hall, a swimming pool, sports facilities, etc. The facilities were initially introduced for White railway workers who are now living elsewhere. I want to make a serious appeal to the hon the Minister to take this town over from the SATS and sell the houses to the people who qualify for a State subsidy. However, they cannot be taken into use because of the absence of a proclamation. Other red tape is also preventing this from happening.

Rietbron’s self-help building programme is a great success and the final product is excellent. For the hon the Minister’s information I want to say that all community campaigns that were launched are functioning very well indeed. Nelspoort has a major problem with additional land for expansion, and with the problem of officials who retire because they have to vacate their homes for the new officials who are being appointed. My request is that the hon the Minister identify land and implement the process of township establishment as a matter of urgency. I also want to ask the hon the Minister for officials to be delegated to join me in getting an objective view of the whole set-up in order to ensure the future of these residents.

Aberdeen received a allocation of R1 887 000 for this financial year. I can assure the hon the Minister that this will be fully utilised for the infrastructure and the construction of 104 houses.

In conclusion I want to state that I jealously guard the interests of my constituency. I reserve the right to be consulted in all respects before any official enters my area.

Mr Chairman, to my mind housing forms part of a man’s development and growth. Primitive man only developed after he discovered a permanent place of abode where he was sheltered against wild animals and enemies which would have eliminated him while he was sleeping.

I also agree in particular with the statement made by the hon the Minister yesterday, when he pointed out that it is common knowledge that the low standard of workmanship in large contracts for low cost housing often leaves much to be desired. I should like to go even further. These developers make enormous profits from these units and are at the same time leaving behind them a permanent legacy of problems the prospective owner will have to face for life. However, allow me to thank the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing for the achievements realised in Sparpark, a beautiful town in Warmbaths, where the street-lighting is completed and all the streets are tarred. Progress is also under way in self-help building schemes for about 30 houses.

We thank the hon the Minister for having opened the very first completed house of the self-help building schemes. This took place last year during October in Pietersburg. May I at this juncture report that the infrastructure at Damonsville in Brits is nearing completion. Streets, electricity, water and stormwater drains have been completed. Let me, on behalf of these communities, express their sincere thanks and gratitude.

Whilst addressing the Brits issue, let me expressly convey the immediate desire for this community, namely housing. To house them or not to house them was the question. At last, the whimpering cries have been heard after 20 years of patience. It is imperative that the building project should get under way without delay. Presently, Noodkamp is a slum area formerly called a temporary camp where this community lived for over 20 years. This means that they have suffered a backlog in all aspects of life. For two decades this community has been hoping against hope. At long last they can see a little ray of light at the end of the tunnel. Over 200 houses should be built immediately. The people are ready to move from this distressing and agonising situation where they have perpetually lived for over two decades.

My plea is: Start immediately so as to give this community a chance to develop to the best of their ability. This will only improve the quality of their lives. For years they have lived in tin sheds and overcrowded conditions in slum situations. In summer these tin sheds are extremely hot and in winter they are icy cold. This was the order of the day for 20 years. As a rule, children brought up in these slum areas are terribly disadvantaged when they start their careers at school. There are no sportsfields or any form of recreation. Such circumstances have not been conducive to education. Hence, there have been many dropouts who are a problem to this community today.

To alleviate the perpetuation of this unpleasant and unhealthy situation houses must be built. This is my plea. Any form of delay will complicate the situation which has already compounded over the years. Things have reached alarming proportions. I know how these people feel. They feel completely neglected and unwanted. It is an indisputable fact that children brought up under such conditions are disadvantaged and are sadly handicapped throughout life.

The hon the Minister is also acquainted with my plea for the Coloured people in Louis Trichardt. This community has been neglected for many years. I have previously highlighted those depressing and distressing conditions as the situation under which they live. Twelve months have passed and all is quiet. No information can be drawn from the regional office. I know quite well there is some resistance regarding the town council of Louis Trichardt but something must be done. This is most disheartening.

I do not want to be racialistic but facts remain facts. The Whites are comfortably settled. The Venda and Gazankulu governments have made provisions for their people. The Indians are settled. However, Coloureds face obstacles when it comes to being settled with comfort and dignity.

Needless to say, they are also homemade. Presently this community live in old houses formerly occupied by Blacks. These houses have been cheaply built and are in a state of decay. The mortar between the bricks has deteriorated; the plaster is falling off; the door frames are loose; drinking water is collected from street corners. On rainy days the streets are muddy, and one labours to drive from one house to another. The agony these people go through is unsurpassable by any civilised standards. The questions one reads on the faces of these residents are unromantic. This is no exaggeration. The agony is written all over their faces. They are doomed to live under such conditions for ever.

Because of the degrading circumstances and the uncertainty of their future they simply do not want to spend money on these houses. They may lose everything when they have to go. Some of these people have lived in this area for half a century. They have helped develop the economy of this town in its earlier days. They are now old and do not want to start over elsewhere. They want to live in Louis Trichardt.

The principles of the LP are, among other things, to advance and to promote human dignity, irrespective of ethnicity; to advance and to promote the socio and economic well-being of all South Africans; and to promote and to organise housing at economic standards, as well as ownership of these dwellings. It is above all to promote and to raise the social status of all in this beautiful country.

It is true that until such time as these communities are settled there will be no progress, nor will they develop economically, politically, psychologically or otherwise. To my mind we shall promote, advance and stabilise these communities after they have been properly settled and proud in their houses, however humble.

Mr Chairman, because the problem which we have in South Africa of providing affordable and adequate housing for especially the Third World sector of our population, and because of the excellent achievements and efforts of the hon the Minister and his department over the past five years, one can have no hesitation—as I do not have—in rising to speak in support of this Budget.

I must take this opportunity to congratulate the hon the Minister, his department and the large number of people who are assisting him throughout the country in their great task of providing affordable housing to many people. It was indeed a step of great faith and courage on the part of this hon the Minister to take the initiative to launch the massive scheme out at Blue Downs, to which I will refer later. I want to repeat that it was a step of great faith and courage on the part of this hon the Minister.

A few years ago, when the hon the Minister took over from the Government, there were great backlogs in housing, especially for people of colour in South Africa.

Despite the large amount of money allocated to the hon the Minister’s department this year, I am altogether not happy, because here in the Western Cape alone one local authority has a waiting list of over 30 000. They are at this point in time only busy allocating houses to people who applied in 1982. It is indeed very unfortunate that the economy is in such a poor state when so many people are about to commit themselves to banks and building societies in the most important investment of their lives. The steep rise in the price of building materials, building costs and the provision of essential services adds to the burden of prospective new owners and buyers, not even to mention the cost of new furniture and other household effects needed to turn a dwelling into a comfortable home.

The largest number of people in need of housing cannot afford a conventional home at today’s market prices. I have seen the work done, especially in the Belhar and Ottery areas by means of self-help building schemes. Here again I must pause to compliment the hon the Minister and urge him to initiate more of these low-cost workable schemes wherever and whenever possible. It is indeed a joy to go and see members of communities helping each other over weekends. However, what about the masses of illegal occupants who are squatting in the backyards of so many of our subeconomic housing schemes, such as Parkwood Estate, Grassy Park and Ottery? These people are living in tin shanties in very overcrowded conditions. [Interjections.] These conditions result in the increase of tuberculosis, which has become endemic in the Cape Peninsula and on the Cape Flats, not even to mention the increase in the crime rate.

Today I again wish address the question of the lower-income group who cannot afford conventional building or even the self-help building schemes. I urge the hon the Minister to consider prefabricated houses again and the economical timber A-frame houses, which are used extensively in countries such as America and Canada. At the recent Cape show I saw a prefabricated home which can be erected within six hours on a serviced plot. This, I believe, is definitely a new proposition which must be looked at by the hon the Minister and his department. This particular house and others were approved by the SABS and passed the local wind, water and rain test. I agree that this was not the best looking house in the world but properly furnished—lock, stock and barrel, excluding the plot—it is indeed something the hon the Minister and his department can consider. We must accept the fact that, like new motor cars today, the conventional brick house is out of reach of the subeconomic sector of our people who are in the majority in this country.

People, especially those in the subeconomic group, must get used to the idea that a house need not necessarily be built of bricks, blocks, mortar and clay. [Interjections.] For years people in Japan, for instance, have been living in houses made of paper.

In closing I wish to return to the matter concerning Blue Downs. [Interjections.] I do concede that it is expensive to service erven intended for housing, and that it is not cheap to build a house, especially if it is built by a contractor or a subcontractor, but I also feel that something must be done in the interest of the consumer or, in this case, the new buyer, to limit the profit margin of the developers.

I especially went to the area to visit the home of a relative in the Malibu area. I am not a builder by any stretch of the imagination. I cannot even put two bricks the one on top of the other. [Interjections.] However, after looking at some of the houses, and one house in particular, I realised one did not need to be an expert to see the poor workmanship there—it was clearly visible in some of these houses.

A young couple whom I went to visit have a combined income of R1 200, and their bond repayment is R500 per month. [Interjections.] Besides that they have to pay for water and electricity. How these people exist I do not know. [Interjections.] I do not believe that housing should be a field in which developers and contractors should be allowed to make large profits at the expense of the poor. [Interjections.]

Here again I wish to turn to the question of estate agents. Every second unemployed or free White woman I meet in the Sea Point area is an estate agent. The large number of estate agents which I believe has increased from fewer than 10 000 in 1987 to over 20 000 in 1989 is indeed alarming. I feel that far too many people are becoming estate agents, and far too many people in existing housing estates are being urged to sell their homes. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, recently I, and probably most other hon members, have experienced a tremendous struggle regarding the need for housing among our people. The question we had to settle for ourselves was whether the obtaining of a home was a right or a privilege. I looked at nature and came to the conclusion that it was a right, because birds build nests for themselves and even ants and bees have their own homes, if we can call them that. Even the Bible says that foxes have holes and birds have nests. Surely it is then also the right of every person to have a home to live in.

Consequently there is a very great responsibility resting on the Department of Local Government and Housing, the hon the Minister and all his officials. They must make provision for a home for every person out there. For that reason I should like to congratulate the hon the Minister on the efforts he has made to achieve this. Since we have been participating in this tricameral Parliament the hon the Minister has achieved wonders with the limited means at his disposal to provide accommodation for the thousands out there. During the period of office of this hon Minister approximately 32 000 houses have been built. The options open to the hon the Minister were limited. He had to decide by what method he could provide most houses with the small amount of money at his disposal; the conventional method through which local authorities could provide subeconomic houses or the self-help method.

I agree with the hon the Minister and the department that the self-help method makes more houses available than the provision of sub-economic houses. Through the self-help method not only the need for a house is met, but to a far greater extent the need for a house which will suit the breadwinner’s pocket. Through the self-help method a person can decide for himself how large his house must be and how much he can afford to pay to acquire his own home. What is more, when the person is involved in the erection of his house he will be a proud occupant and a satisfied owner of his property. He will cherish and look after that house. He will protect it against vandals and those persons who are always intent on destroying things.

If we apply this self-help method in our communities we are restoring the self-respect of our people and we are not only building a house for them, but are also building their human dignity. The successes achieved with the self-help method are apparent everywhere. In the last 10 years very few subeconomic houses have been built in places in my constituency. At Brandvlei, for example, only 25 subeconomic houses have been built in the last 10 years. In two years 143 self-help houses were built in Brandvlei and hon members have to see the pride of those owners and occupants to believe it. I do not know if I have ever seen a prouder community. Brandvlei even won first prize for neatness and so on awarded by the department. How are we not going to use that R250 000 at minimum interest to meet some of the needs of that community! There are very few red clay houses left in Brandvlei. I want to ask the hon the Minister not to cut off that trickle of funds. In Brandvlei we are still going to erect many self-help houses.

However, we are also worried. Under the new dispensation of the regional offices Brandvlei has been taken away from the Cape Town office and placed under the control of the Kimberley regional office. We are afraid that there will now be delays and stoppages. After all, unknown is unloved. We will have to start all over again building a basis of trust and I want to ask the hon the Minister whether it is not possible to keep Brandvlei under the jurisdiction of the Cape regional office. I want to tell the hon the Minister that Brandvlei will be eternally grateful to him and I want to recommend that he feel free to refer everyone who still has doubts about the self-help scheme to Brandvlei.

In future we would also like to launch this scheme in Calvinia, Fraserburg, Williston, Kenhardt, Loeriesfontein and even Pofadder. We need the officials of the hon the Minister’s office to assist us by word and deed, as they did in the case of Brandvlei. I know that the hon the Minister will continue to provide us with expertise when we ask for it and we thank him for this in advance.

There is one other matter which is causing us concern, namely the provision of services. The costs involved in the provision of essential services such as water, sewerage, electricity and rubbish removal are sky high and as a result our people cannot always keep up. In Brandvlei there is no distribution network for water. There is no distribution network for electricity either. For the water distribution network alone we need approximately R2 million. The man in the street simply cannot afford these basic services any longer. I do not know how the hon the Minister is going to solve this problem. What I do know, however, is that something positive will have to be done in this regard and that it will have to be done soon.

Although we have so much to be grateful for and are praising the hon the Minister and his department there are also a few matters which are causing us concern. In my constituency there are quite a number of home owners with mortgage bonds. The rising interest rates on mortgage bonds are making people poorer and consequently they must scale down their quality of life. In virtually all cases the cost of living has increased whereas their income has not increased to the same extent. These buyers now find themselves in very serious financial straits. I want to ask whether a plan cannot be made to help these people.

Another matter causing me concern is the provision of building sites. In Hantam there are small and, in some cases, very poor municipalities. Many of the municipalities would very much like to make building sites available but it costs money and the municipalities cannot afford to pay for it from their own resources and funds. I want to ask the hon the Minister what the possibility is of these municipalities being assisted by his department.

I have a good word for the self-help building scheme. As I have said hon members can come and see what we have done in the North-West. Must we, however, do away with the provision of conventional subeconomic houses entirely? Must we discontinue this? In the same way that we will always have the poor and the ignorant with us, we will also have people without vision and the necessary initiative and driving force with us. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is a privilege to speak after the hon member for Hantam. In the first place I want to congratulate the hon the Minister on his award as the man of the year. He deserves it, because never before in the history of our country has anyone worked so hard and tried so hard in the field of housing.

We also want to thank the officials for their services and their unselfishness. When we approach them, they are always prepared to give us a hearing. Many thanks also to the hon the Minister and the officials for launching the self-help building project in Paarl. In discussing the hon the Minister’s Vote today, I feel a little better than I have in the four years I have been in Parliament.

The need for housing in our country is causing concern. It is causing problems, frustration and anxiety. Since the Group Areas Act has been on the Statute Book in our country, the building of decent houses for our people has decreased, whether we like it or not. This has resulted in many of our communities throughout the country being reduced to object poverty. For that reason I cannot understand why there are town councils which receive money for housing for Coloured people and then still drag their feet. It is upsetting to learn that town councils have thousands of rands at their disposal and are not making any effort to continue with the building of houses for our communities.

Today I want to ask for more subsidies for farmers for the building of decent houses for our people on the farms. Approximately 80% of my constituency consists of farms and I find it distressing and sad, when I visit my voters on the farms, to see in what dreadful conditions the farm workers must live. The housing is totally inadequate for these times. I am asking that the owner of the farm should be able to apply for bigger subsidies for the building of decent houses for his farm workers.

The call of the hon the Minister and the hon the State President was for the private sector to intervene. We are grateful that some of them have intervened, but we are also disappointed that people in the private sector are exploiting our people. One does everything in one’s power to get the project off the ground so that they can build the houses and later on we find that they are not building according to the plans that they originally submitted to the lessees or sellers. This is causing a lot of trouble.

Paarl is an example of this. I think the department’s officials are aware of this. The owners are issuing threats and have probably already been to the high court regarding the matter of Mountain View, where land was purchased from a White group area to add to a Coloured group area. We did not have a say. I, as the MP, simply had to sign the documents stating that we were willing to allow White land to be added to Coloured land, specifically for the building of houses—because we have a waiting list of more than 3 000 in Paarl. However, this is causing concern and problems. The people do not leave one alone, although it is not a project of our House.

It must be ensured that entrepreneurs do not change the style stipulated in the contract. They are now really exploiting our people. I am glad that some local authorities are continuing to build houses for our people. However, I am really extremely disappointed and dissatisfied with some local authorities who build houses for their workers—they are entitled to do that—but when these workers retire on pension, die or are declared disabled, that family must vacate the house. Where must they go if there is no housing? My appeal to the local authority was that in such cases people should exchange houses, and that the worker who vacates his house should move into the house of the new worker who is now going to move into his house.

What happened however? Five families in Paarl were left homeless. I concede that funds of the local town council are used to erect houses for their workers. Why did the people have to be turned out in the rain? They put up tents and were then prosecuted. On Sunday morning I was called out of church to get some of the breadwinners out of the Allandale and Victor Verster prisons. They were prosecuted in a cunning way. The police went to the people—I am going to take this matter up with the commanding officer of the local police—and told them they had to go with them simply to sign something. Before they knew what was happening, they were being locked up.

On Sunday I was called out of church to get those people out of jail. We went further and accommodated those families with other people, but they cannot live with other people forever. For that reason I do not want to see our local authorities buying land from us to build houses for their workers. The workers living in those houses are doing so under an obligation because the moment they are declared disabled, retire on pension or the breadwinner dies, the family has to vacate that house. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, every hon member has been praising the hon the Minister for Local Government and Housing for the wonderful job he is doing. I seem to differ with them, however. I am the only person who is not going to praise the hon the Minister. I would rather praise Mr Dickson and Mr Adams who always welcome me with a smile.

I should like to say that it is not … [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members should give the hon member for Eersterus a fair opportunity to make his speech. [Interjections.] Will the hon member speak a bit louder please? The hon member may continue.

I am not praising the hon the Minister, because he did not respond. It seems to me that I am the only one who has problems. There is nothing happening in my entire constituency. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, will the hon member for Addo please give me a chance to deliver my speech?

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member for Addo keeps on interrupting.

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon member may continue.

There are only CP-controlled local authorities in my constituency and when I ask them for housing, they keep on telling me that they are going to fill in the forms and are going to apply for loans. However, every day when one telephones them they say that they are going to send them next week, but next week never comes.

I want to plead with the hon the Minister that we must get another short cut. His officials must do something. I do not know what they will do, but we must merely cut out the local authorities in my constituency and build houses.

Go for autonomy!

Unfortunately, I cannot go for autonomy. My people cannot afford it. I want to tell the hon the Minister that whenever I contact the local authorities in various towns, I am told that this is an own affairs matter and that they are not interested. A letter is on its way to the hon the Minister.

Once again I have problems in Standerton. The people are being charged R35 per unit for sewage services, which is more than their rent. I hope that the hon the Minister will assist them. Those houses were built at a cost of R1 000 some 20 years ago. Today they are being sold for R2 000. I think that is unfair. However, I know that it is not of the hon the Minister’s doing and I hope that he will assist us with regard to the proclamation of land. One is given land of one’s own choice. However, once the land is chosen it takes a long time to proclaim that area.

A place like Piet Retief has been in existence for the past 20 years and has as yet not been proclaimed a Coloured area. The people cannot build homes—they can do nothing. The town council is also not prepared to do anything. If one goes to the office of the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning to get information with regard to White River, they say that White River must be dealt with by the House of Representatives. They have nothing to do with it and are not prepared to do anything. They are waiting for the House of Representatives.

I do not know who proclaims the areas anymore. Is it the House of Representatives or is it the provincial administration?

When one goes to the provincial administration, one is told it is not there; it is at the House of Representatives. When one goes to the House of Representatives, one is told one should go to the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. However, he says he has no applications. So I do not know where to go.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member for Matroosfontein must use the correct language in the House.

Order! What did the hon member say?

He told me to shut up.

Order! The hon member for Matroosfontein must withdraw that.

I withdraw it, Mr Chairman.

Order! The hon member for Eersterus may continue.

I am trying to bring all my problems to the hon the Minister. I am not trying to break him, and, as a previous speaker said, we are not passing a vote of no confidence in him. I have full confidence in the hon the Minister and I know he is going to help me.

Mr Chairman, firstly I wish to thank the hon Minister for complying so faithfully with the objectives of the party. The objective contained in the Constitution of the party reads as follows:

I thank the hon Minister for taking up the matter by means of the self-help building schemes. Before I discuss this further, I wish to thank the regional office with Mr Meiring, Miss Walsh, Mrs M La More and Mrs Smit for their support and willingness to help me. I also want to thank Messrs Du Preez, Fuchs, Kloppers, P S du Toit and Hugo. I also thank the hon the Minister’s administrative secretary as well as his personal secretary for their help. As a result of their help, I solved my housing problem by means of self-help building.

I do not want to boast today, but I want to say that I am the leader in the field of self-help building in the rural areas. [Interjections.] There is not a town in my constituency that does not have such a scheme. In Bredasdorp we have tackled the first phase of 43 houses. The people came out of hovels and storage rooms, and one person came out of a pipe. There was not one artisan, but we found a building control officer who taught them how to build the houses. The hon the Minister officiated at the inauguration of the houses and those people are today the proud owners of their own homes.

Even before the 43 houses were completed, I applied to the hon the Minister of Transport Services for housing subsidies for the SATS employees. They were eligible for R47 000. They were then asked whether they did not want to sell the houses for R47 000 each. Not one wanted to sell. Do hon members know what the houses cost? R16 500. How many thousands of rands would they not have had in their pockets had they sold the houses. They could have paid the amount of R16 500 and then still have bought a second wife or a car. [Interjections.] That was how much money they made. This is what the hon the Minister initiated. We uplifted these people economically.

I am, however, disappointed that there are still prophets of doom who are pessimistic about the self-help building schemes. I want to invite the hon members to come and see the progress being made in the Genadendal constituency. Thirty-seven houses have already been completed. The hon the Minister was at Riviersonderend last Saturday, where 17 houses have been completed. In Napier the first phase of 50 houses has been completed, but we need another 50 houses. At Bredasdorp 160 houses have been completed, and we have applied for services for 127 houses.

The people do not want subeconomic houses. A fishing village such as Struisbaai received 17 houses, the hon the Minister said yesterday. Have you ever heard of a fisherman who was an artisan? These people, however, completed the houses. At Waenhuiskrans they are building 40 houses. What nonsense is this that self-help building schemes do not work? [Interjections.]

They work!

Mr Chairman, economically we are uplifting our people …

Order! If I call an hon member to order, he must obey. Hon members must give the hon member for Genadendal the opportunity to state his case, so that it can be recorded clearly in Hansard. I appeal to the hon members in this respect. The hon member may continue.

Mr Chairman, I want to invite any hon member of this House to invite me to their constituency to motivate people to build their own houses. I am prepared to go there at my own expense. The hon the Minister was there personally when the first phase was completed. We held a party and the people expressed their gratitude the hon the Minister. We also gave the hon the Minister a gift. [Interjections.] We are grateful for the funds. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he will see to it that the funds are immediately available when we start with the second and third phases in the various towns. If there are towns who do not wish to continue with the self-help building schemes, they can give their money to me. [Interjections.] I want to use the money. My voters do not want to hear about subeconomic housing.

I want to tell the hon members what these people earn. There is a person who earns R380 per month, but his instalment is only R45 per month. Then there is another person who earns R195 per month, and his instalment is only R24 per month. There is also someone who earns R112 per week, and he only pays R56 per month. Where does the nonsense that it does not work originate? [Interjections.] Another voter only earns R114 per month, but he only pays off R16 for a three-bedroomed house with electricity, a ceiling and hot and cold water. Why then must he be satisfied with a two-bedroomed subeconomic house which does not even have ceilings and plastered walls? [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member must please keep quiet when other members are called to order. What hon members say must be recorded, and if hon members have a case, they must state their own case.

The hon member is barely audible and it will not be possible for his speech to be recorded in Hansard. The hon member offered to help other hon members in their constituencies. The hon member may continue.

Mr Chairman, it seems as if I am treading on hon members’ toes. I want to continue and thank the hon the Minister for the community hall at Napier. I applied for a management committee at Klipdale. The regional services councils are taking over the domain of the divisional council. The hon the Minister must see to it that the management committee is instituted so that they can also have representation on the regional services council.

However, I have another problem. The province gives a donation for the promotion of sport. Last year I received R70 000 for Bredasdorp, R20 000 for Waenhuiskrans, R40 000 for Struisbaai, R20 000 for Greyton and R40 000 for Napier. Now, however, the province says that the rural areas do not fall under them, but the hon the Minister’s department does not want to make any donations either. I want to ask the hon the Minister for a donation so that Genadendal’s sports field can be upgraded. As far as a museum and a library in the rural areas are concerned, no funds or donations are being made available. The province gives it to local authorities. I therefore hope that the hon the Minister will do something about the donation for rural areas.

I also want to thank the hon the Minister sincerely for the development. I can assure him that the constituency of Genedendal is a safe bastion of the LP. It is safe as a result of what the hon the Minister allows me to do there. I hear that the Official Opposition is looking for someone to oppose me. I shall find them someone to oppose me. [Interjections.] I shall let them have the name, and then we can see what happens. If he does not lose his deposit, I shall be prepared to hand in my resignation. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I shall start by referring to the speech the hon the Minister made yesterday in which he said on p 17:

I shall continue where the hon the Minister says:

[Interjections.] I shall come to that, and you will have to wait! [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister says:

[Interjections.] While there has been reference to Blue Downs … [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, I do not have the time now to reply to those hon members’ remarks; I shall run into them at some opportunity or other later. I am dealing with serious people. There are the Blue Downs people. They can see how you are carrying on. That is a good thing. I shall proceed because I have been asked …

Order! Hon members are not to speak of “you” but of “hon members”.

Then the hon “you” had better continue, Sir.

Order! No, it is the “hon members”.

I intend using the short time at my disposal to put the case of the people of Blue Downs because I was asked to do so. I was invited to go there, I was there on Saturday, and that is why I am according their case attention. [Interjections.]

†We know about the complaints directed at Vista Homes and other developers since last year. We have been hearing and reading about them all the time. These complaints are well founded. One will find it to be the case, especially if one goes to Conifers and Tuscany Glen.

Hon members can see this long list of complaints coming from those people. I think this list has been submitted to the hon the Minister. I will read out just a few of them and not the whole lot, because I want to use the time allocated to me as expeditiously as possible. [Interjections.]

Undercover stoves at an optimum value of R1 300, as was promised, were not supplied in the majority of the houses. Fascia boards on shelves were omitted. Free gifts of washing machines and fridges were promised to first-time home buyers, but no cut-off point was mentioned as to when they would stop doing so. Salespersons persuaded buyers to sign release forms for bond monies even before foundations were laid. These blank authorisation progress forms were signed by each individual prospective buyer without acknowledgement. There is also another complaint about a Ms Joan Parish who promised certain buyers that garages would be ceilinged and plastered.

There were also deviations from the specifications. I shall deal with just one of them. Wall tiling was eliminated from some toilets.

Generally there were three very serious complaints as well. There is no air venting in the houses, no balance unit fitted to the hot water cylinder, resulting in scalding and serious burning of persons taking a shower, should anyone else in the home turn on a cold water tap. Just imagine what would happen if somebody was having a shower and someone else turned on a cold water tap in the kitchen. A terrific lot of hot water would come down on the back of the person under the shower. [Interjections.] Is that not dangerous?

Order! The hon members for Border, Haarlem and Bokkeveld should give this hon member a proper opportunity to deliver his speech.

The agreement that cavity walls should be used was not adhered to. They simply used solid cement blocks.

I have brought along with me a contract …

Mr Chairman, …

Order!

Other hon members must give the hon member for Bokkeveld a chance first. It is only this hon member who is to reply now. Does the hon member wish to put a question?

Yes, Mr Chairman, …

Order! Is the hon member for Matroosfontein prepared to reply to a question?

No, Sir. I do not have the time for it.

Order! The hon member is not prepared to reply to the question.

Mr Chairman, I turn to … [Interjections.]

Order! I understand that the hon member wishes to put a question to me.

Mr Chairman, you reprimanded the hon member for Bokkeveld but it was not I who was speaking. It probably came from over there.

Order! I apologise, but it was actually the hon member for Nuweveld. [Interjections.] I offer my apologies. That hon member should actually have told me that he was the guilty one because I was looking at him. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, will I be given extra time for what has been lost? [Interjections.]

People were shown show houses. They went to view the show houses and made a choice. When they ultimately took possession of the house, however, it was not the show house which they had originally viewed. Where there were no show houses, pictures were shown. They were told that they would look just like that and a plan was even included. When they were built for the Blue Downs people, they finally looked as they do on these photographs which I shall hand to the hon the Minister. One can see for instance that the roofs differ. In the White area, however, they were built according to the original promise. This photograph was taken in the White area and this one in Blue Downs. If hon members look at the photograph of this house and its garage, it can be seen clearly that the resident will have problems in driving into his garage. [Interjections.] I tried it with my small car. That man cannot get in and, ten to one, he will knock the pole down when he reverses. [Interjections.] We visited one house where the woman had put up a “For sale” sign. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Riversdal had better not say that.

That woman was most discouraged because her house was completely tucked away. Here is another photo on which hon members will be able to see that, if the residents should hold a party here, the neighbours would not be able to drive in because there would be too many cars. Even if there are only three cars, that road is closed off. People who therefore want to hold a party will first have to inform their neighbours about it.

Order! Hon members will have to give the hon member a fair chance.

Mr Chairman, it is obvious that these grievances are not being addressed. These people want the hon the Minister to step in and assist them. I am glad that other hon members who spoke about Blue Downs, also voiced their opinion. At least they are taking note of this problem and other hon members were supposed to have listened to them. I am glad about that. My plea to the hon the Minister is to please see what he can do to satisfy these people. I know the hon the Minister has met with them. They want their grievances to be addressed through the channels of the system. They realise that it cannot be done in any other way but through the system. [Interjections.] These people are not, and I repeat not, radicals. However, all of us involved in this dispensation …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member is misleading this House. In my speech yesterday I stated that hon members were not prepared to work through a management committee. The hon member now states that these people are prepared to work within the system. Did the hon member attend those meetings with me?

Order! The hon the Minister has put his point.

Mr Chairman, I … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I am not going to deal with the hon member for Matroosfontein, the hon the Minister will do that. [Interjections.]

The hon member is getting excited again.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon member for Matroosfontein entitled to say that the hon member for Klipspruit West is a fathead MP?

Mr Chairman, I quoted those words yesterday to hon members from a newspaper!

Order! The hon member is speaking in the first person now, however. In other words, the hon member is not repeating what was said in the newspaper but is saying it himself. The hon member is to withdraw his words.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw them but his people themselves say so.

Order! The hon member is to withdraw them unconditionally.

I withdraw them.

Mr Chairman, first of all I would like to know how that hon member is going to get those pictures published in Hansard? [Interjections.] He must explain how he is going to do that.

*I may be a fathead MP …

Order! The hon member is to proceed. He is an hon member of this House and not a fathead or a leanhead!

There are certain hon members of this House who cannot think and come and talk nonsense here. They pretend to know what is going on but they know nothing. Some of those hon members unfortunately have no hair and now I see why. [Interjections.]

†Mr Chairman, let me return to my constituency problems. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, now hon members can see whom I am addressing when I refer to a hairless fathead. [Interjections.]

*That is because he cannot think.

†I am going to address my constituency problems and act as if nothing has happened with regard to the hon member for Matroosfontein. He has decided to wake up after a few years’ sleep.

The hon the Minister wrote me a very strong and harsh letter concerning Noordgesig. I understand the hon the Minister’s problems and I still support him. He belongs to my party and I will be loyal to him at all times. The hon the Minister wrote me a letter in which he assumed a harsh tone through no fault of his. It was due to faulty information he received from the Johannesburg City Council about the sale of houses to the people of Noordgesig.

Those houses will be 53 years old soon and I suggested that the houses be sold in a certain way. I suggested that a person who has been living there for more than 20 years should pay his last rental. A person who has been living there for between 10 and 20 years should pay R300 and a person who has been living there for less than 10 years should pay R600. It was merely a suggestion but according to spokesmen of the Johannesburg City Council I said it had to be done and I was misleading the people. I ask the hon the Minister to look into the matter of selling the houses to those people.

They have waited 52 years for a proclamation. The hon the Minister’s department helped him to bring about the proclamation. Now they must help him to sell these houses to the people so that they can become homeowners, sell the houses and move off to better places. That is what one’s first council house is there for. One should live there, buy it and then sell it and move somewhere better. One should not stay in the same place all the time.

We have written numerous letters regarding the Protea settlement. As I said yesterday, the houses look beautiful. There is no better scheme in the Johannesburg area at this moment. However, the buildings are in a terrible condition. The paint on many of the walls is starting to peel because water leaks through the ceilings right down on to the walls. Unfortunately somewhere along the line some official at the regional office said he carried out an inspection and found everything to be all right. They sit in their offices and draw up these reports; they do not come out to the site. One official came out with us and agreed that the buildings were in bad shape but when he returned to the office he changed his story and said it was good. They think we are a bunch of idiots. They think we are fools and we do not know what we are talking about.

*Mr Chairman, I apologise, I withdraw the two words “fools” and “idiots”.

Order! The hon member must remember that those people cannot defend themselves here.

They think we do not know what we are talking about when we point out these problems. When the mortar mixture of a house which is not even two years old disintegrates, it must have been very bad. The top bricks very often fall down which means that the house may collapse. The quality of those houses is very poor although they look very beautiful at a distance. The lay-out was done perfectly.

We warned the hon the Minister well in advance that Goldstein must not be used. One can look at all the projects which Goldstein has done. There is not a single good one. Extension 5 in Ennerdale is a Goldstein project and we still have problems there. The hon the Minister became angry with me when I wanted to put the council in its place. The council come there and think that they can control us all the time. They think they can tell us what to do. They put up a house and think we will stay in it whether we like it or not. Those times are gone. Our people realise that we are buying and paying for those houses. We do not get them for nothing.

I request the hon the Minister to reopen the negotiations with the council. The hon member for Haarlem and the hon member Mr Douw were present at that meeting. The department told the city council that we had a problem and asked them what their solution was.

*They thought that I did not know what was going on. They said that I was arrogant and stubborn and then walked out. [Interjections.] We make a poor impression on our people if we do not take action, we who represent those people.

†It is totally wrong. [Interjections.] I wish the hon member for Matroosfontein would rather listen to what I am saying. I am speaking about my constituency and not about someone else’s as he has done.

I would like the hon the Minister to have a look at extension 10 Eldorado Park which falls in my constituency. Too many people are already buying land which is not serviced yet. However, everybody is promised a piece of land there. We have 500 stands there and over 1 000 families in the low-income bracket. Those people are being told by the local management committee that they will be put in temporary accommodation for three years or so and then they will decide where to put them next. Sir, those people live in that area. It was a slum area but they have lived there all their lives and must be rehoused there. It is through no fault of their own that they are poor. It is because of the wicked laws of this Government that those people are there and live in those conditions. Somehow the State will have to subsidise the putting up of liveable dwellings for them. It must not be any old type of house like the former Department of Community Development used to build such as those at a place we call Kersiedorp where there are rows and rows of houses with no facilities at all. The people there have to carry a bag of coal through their front doors to the back of their houses. That type of housing we can no longer have.

At Ennerdale the hon the Minister’s department built two sets of houses. They are nice houses. Even the last built by Stocks & Stocks are good-looking houses. Unfortunately the department does not even know that those houses are there. They allocated those houses but do not know about them any more. We wrote them a letter about a person with a problem with his rent. They wrote a letter back to me saying that there was no such house. [Interjections.] Yet people are living in that house. The local office in Johannesburg is “regte deurmekaar sake”. Nobody knows what is going on. When one walks into the office on a Monday morning there is a board saying who is absent. There is never anybody there. There is a director who I do not think could direct a créche properly. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Klipspruit West has joined the debate on this Vote. Since we are discussing these issues openly, I will respond to him in public.

Just do not buy sides.

The management committee of Johannesburg is in control. That hon member must tell me if he has a good relationship with that management committee. [Interjections.] The answer is, no. Do I have to settle that question … [Interjections.]

Just do not buy sides.

No? Since that hon member has raised that point in public, we will continue to discuss it in public. When it comes to the question of negotiation, both sides must obey the rules of the game. I spelled it out yesterday.

I should like to give an example. Suddenly the hon member for Matroosfontein visits Blue Downs. He is doing it because it has news value.

I was invited.

Yes, the hon member was invited. That is why some people turned up this afternoon. The chairman of Tuscany Glen, Mr Hartogh, asked for a meeting with the developer, Vista Homes, and with the Natal Building Society. We held a meeting in my office on Thursday. He failed to turn up, however. [Interjections.] Did he tell that to the hon member for Matroosfontein? This meeting was planned to deal with the complaints of the hon member for Matroosfontein. I had four meetings. I explained it in my speech yesterday. I also wrote it down for the hon member. I mentioned the dates of the various meetings. The hon member is stating on their behalf that they are prepared to work with the system. [Interjections.] They are not, however. They wrote me a letter yesterday. The hon member for Addo handed me a letter from the chairman who said he will attend the meeting on condition that the management committee is not present.

The chairman was there.

No, we are debating issues. I explained it to the hon member; I made a statement. It is reported in today’s newspapers that if the people have complaints, they must be dealt with. I object strongly that publicity stunts are being made in this House in order to gain credibility of an issue …

[Inaudible.]

Of course. Mr Chairman, I said in my speech that everything had been done. The meeting has been arranged. Mr Hartogh and the ratepayers were present in my office when we dealt with the United Building Society.

What I am saying in this House is that when one is playing the negotiating game there is a code of honour. As I said yesterday, even among thieves there is a code of honour. This is what we are talking about. Meetings are scheduled to discuss the Blue Downs issue. On Thursday I am meeting the regional managers of every building society in the Western Cape who are dealing with Blue Downs. Who will be present at that meeting? The management committee of Mountain Rose. I want to ask that hon member if Mr Hartogh of Tuscany Glen will be present at that meeting when we are going to discuss the high interest rates?

As a Minister I am telling this House that I am doing my job. From the debating among MPs one can clearly see the chalk and the cheese. We merely have to listen to their speeches.

I should like to reply to the allegations made by the hon member for Hanover Park. However, in replying to hon members I cannot go into detail. I said in my speech:

Why do these developers move into the area? It is because there is a market for those homes. I quote further:

This answers the question in regard to Delft. I said further:

According to the statement of the hon member for Hanover Park, Delft has not even been placed on the planning table and a contract has been awarded.

I want to ask hon members to read my speech. I have made it available to every hon member. It is expected that a start will be made soon with the development service site and we hope to have the first house in the Delft area before the end of the year.

Let us take a look at what is happening in the Blue Downs area. We have the first report on 378 houses in Blue Downs. One hundred and seventy-nine families came from the city council area and 55 families came from divisional council areas in the Western Cape. Two thousand homes have been built and, according to this estimate, 1 000 families have moved from city council areas into half the amount of homes built in Blue Downs.

We are dealing with this problem. I explained my problem in regard to the affordability of housing to hon members. I am constantly torn between the “platteland” and the cities. Let us take a look at reports from the “platteland”. When one is dealing with housing, one has to look at the question of affordability of homes.

I grant that we have serious problems with regard to the question of affordability. I can also mention my own constituency. I represent my constituency as a Minister, and for the first time a little village in my constituency, Kylemore, received street lighting. I do not even want to talk about the water supply. However, I did not come here crying but did something about it.

There is a shortage of 2 000 houses in my constituency. Hon members are complaining about the shortage of funds in their constituencies. I can do likewise and must also wait in the queue until funds are available. I receive the same complaints and get accused of the same things as hon members do. I get accused in my own constituency of being the Minister who is not able to do anything for his people. Therefore I am in the same ball game as other hon members. I can sing the lamentations of Jeremiah just as good as they can.

In the time at my disposal I cannot reply to every question but I will reply in writing on the points that hon members have raised. I must deal with them; my staff have noted them and will answer such questions. I will try to reply to as many questions as possible. The question in regard to the implementation of a project consistently comes to the fore. I should like to mention in passing that hon members—such as the hon member for Eersterus—have serious problems with local authorities in regard to the implementation of projects. Who must do this when a local authority, in given instances, refuses to build homes in his constituency? In such instances this department must do it through a management committee. Therefore we have to create the structures.

Hon members repeatedly used the old argument—or belief—that when one gives a management committee the function of implementing projects, one is going to create an autonomous local authority. The problem is that the City Council of Cape Town controls the land in the area under its jurisdiction. We must take away that right if it concerns land that is available in Coloured areas and the management committees must take over and implement projects on that land. [Interjections.] We are not talking about autonomy. Yesterday—and today—we consistently explained to hon members that we have to take over the development function. This is what I am basically talking about. Hon members must address the problem of how they are going to take that function away from local authorities and implement it themselves.

I can give hon members a whole list of the problems that we are experiencing from Kensington right down to where land has been available for decades. Yet one cannot get hold of it because one has to negotiate with the city council’s housing committee as they declare policy in Coloured areas. This is exactly the problem. We have a housing policy that we must implement. That is why we took over Blue Downs. The city council could have had control over Blue Downs but they wanted to take over the policy with regard to the way in which homes should be erected there.

I grant hon members that there are complaints, and that the complaints regarding Blue Downs are genuine. However, as I reported yesterday, structures have been established in order to solve those problems.

As far as the negotiation table is concerned, both sides must agree on what negotiation is about. However, some people raise other issues, change the goalposts—this is what some people do. [Interjections.] No, say to them that we are going to talk about the problems now. However, when reporting back at the next meeting, the first thing they say is that one chucked out the management committee.

Secondly they want the Press to be present. However, these things cannot be done in front of the Press. I cannot negotiate with people who change the goalposts each time we enter into negotiations. One is limited, and one says this is the line. We have come together to talk about the people’s problems, and this is the issue we want solved. When people bring in their personal ideas of what should be done, they must solve those things themselves.

I want to thank the hon members who participated in this debate. I want to thank the hon members who have given the officials in my department credit where credit is due. We have severe problems in the different provinces. Let me explain to hon members the problems in the four central areas with which we are concerned. Urbanisation is taking place in the four major centres, namely the Witwatersrand, Durban, Port Elizabeth and Cape Town. It is going to be a scramble for land around those areas because job opportunities are being created there.

The availability of land is becoming a primary target, and this is why the CP is fighting their guts out to keep other people out in the Transvaal. The MPs in the Transvaal know how difficult it is to obtain land. [Interjections.] That hon member must try it. We tried to get Germiston’s people permanently settled, but the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning refused to declare it a Coloured area. We made those requests. Unfortunately the hon member for Reigerpark is not present. It is his constituency; it has been his constituency since the days of the old CRC. What has he done about it? After 20 years Germiston is still a squatter camp, yet he wants to talk about a job being done.

As I said, I will do my best to give attention to what every hon member said. Unfortunately, I cannot answer everything they have said. I want to come to the question of the hon members for Reigerpark and Bishop Lavis. They keep on harping on the issue of corruption and dirty deals with regard to certain projects. However, I want to say with all due respect to them that they must get their facts correct when they lay something at the door of this department. For example, let us look at the famous article in Rapport on the question of an hon member, Mr Donovan Mateman, who is now a member of the management committee, selling land which he obtained from the department, also obtaining the department’s permission to sell it. On investigation, the plot concerned according to this newspaper article, does not even belong to this department. It belongs to the Johannesburg City Council.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Mr Donovan Mateman is not a member of the management committee; it is his brother.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding, because his name is mentioned.

The point is that the plot that he was supposed to have sold does not belong to this department. It belongs to the Johannesburg City Council. In a letter to the hon member for Klipspruit West the person who accuses Mr Mateman states:

This was written by a Mrs A M van Rooyen. She mentions in her letter to the hon member for Klipspruit West that no official of the department was involved. Unfortunately hon members base their arguments on what they read in the newspaper. We will investigate this matter. We will furnish the hon member for Reigerpark and the hon member for Bishop Lavis with a written reply on this issue.

*Hence the request that action should be taken in response to a letter from the Leaserman Development Company. I do not want to quote everything which the officials of my department made available to me. However, these people make vague accusations.

†They have been asked to specify them and we will give them a proper written reply.

*The officials of my department say that because the accusation was made in very general terms, the procedure was explained to Mr Lesar. He was invited to corroborate specific incidents with the necessary evidence.

†I want to point out that these matters are under the control of the Johannesburg City Council.

The management committee is a committee of that local authority. If there is corruption on this management it must be taken up with them. Furthermore, it must be taken up with the administrator. I can only act in my lawful capacity.

*I am now King Solomon. I am now prosecutor, judge, jury and whatever else. It does not work that way. [Interjections.] Ten sites have already been allocated to this very development company. To date no development has taken place. If we are therefore talking about corruption, hon members must please not rely entirely on newspaper reports.

†The whole question regarding the United Civic Association is now in the hands of the Attorney-General in order to see what necessary action can be taken.

I want to come to the question which was raised by the hon member for Macassar.

*Hon members also said that we should fix the price when the department makes land available, so that the developers do not make a profit. This House elected a select committee in 1984 to investigate certain questions with regard to the rentals framework. I believe that it has now become necessary to once again appoint a committee after the Easter weekend in order to investigate these matters and to make recommendations.

†This House is responsible for the new rental structure. [Interjections.] Yes, that is so. [Interjections.] I was chairman of the select committee. That is the basic principle that was adopted. We can argue about the merits and the demerits of the rental structure, but this House recommended that rental and bond payments must be based on income. That principle was accepted at Cabinet level. [Interjections.] Hon members can go through the recommendations. The principle that rentals and bond payments must be based on income was accepted. This is why the hon member for Genadendal can tell hon members what an owner is paying for a self-help building scheme according to his income. That is what has happened now.

Now we come to the question of land being made available. Hon members made objections that the department makes the land available to developers who make a profit on the land and that is passed on to the end user. Let us look into this and make proposals. I have a problem in this regard. Let me tell hon members my basic problem. If land is made available to private developers, how am I going to stop them making a profit on the land if he must implement services?

As I have said I do not want to debate the merit of the case now, but as hon members of this House we must ask ourselves the question after the Easter recess whether we want another select committee to make recommendations to Cabinet with regard to this particular question. [Interjections.] We have been effective in the past and we must do our job properly when it comes to this particular problem.

*I want to tell the hon member for Dysselsdorp that I agree with him with regard to the question that there should eventually be only one local authority. However, the present system dictates the way in which we should co-operate with a particular management committee.

I appreciate the standpoints of the hon member for Ravensmead, and I want to thank him, as well as all the other hon members, for all the expressions of thanks and congratulations.

I also want to tell the hon member for Grassy Park that the department has already appointed a consultant to investigate all open spaces in order to establish which areas could possibly be used for town development. That includes the areas bordering on Grassy Park and Zeekoevlei.

I can understand the frustrations which the hon member for Reigerpark is experiencing with regard to Boksburg. We will do everything in our power to bring about more positive relations with the town council in order to improve the situation of his people there.

With reference to the hon member’s allegation pertaining to the interpellation of 14 March 1989 with regard to erf 6381, Eldorado Park, I just want to repeat that it has been established that the plot belongs to the city council of Johannesburg and the department has no say in allocations of that nature.

With regard to erf 4061, Eldorado Park, I can inform the hon member for Reigerpark that the developer is still the owner of the erf. The person to whom the erf was allocated, a Mr Pretorius, wants to erect a service station there, and must apply for the rezoning of the erf himself, seeing that this is a condition of sale. The application is still being considered by the city council of Johannesburg and the future owner, Mr Pretorius, can therefore not yet supply the necessary guarantees. Therefore, before our regional office receives this guarantee, no instruction for transfer can be issued to the deeds office.

I just want to add that with regard to the other point that the hon member for Reigerpark mentioned with reference to time housing, it has been established that no plots which had already been sold were to be allocated to the company. With regard to that allegation about the erf of a certain Mr Mateman, I just want to mention that one of our officials, Mr Blignaut, was in no way involved in that. As I explained, that was a different matter. [Interjections.]

In reply to a question from the hon member for Bishop Lavis during the interpellations of 14 March 1988 as to whether the firm, Donovan, Mateman and Associates was registered with the department as bona fide developers, the answer is no. The department does not register developers.

†With reference to that hon member’s request which he made during the aforesaid interpellation to safeguard the present tender system, I should like to emphasise that the allocations committee referred to my reply to Question 2 on 10 March 1989, and that this committee does everything in its power to verify the bona fides, including the financial position and track records, of the tenderers.

*With reference to the allegation of the hon member for Reigerpark that irregularities were taking place, I just want to mention that a report of the United Civic Association was sent to the Advocate General for investigation. The matter is therefore being addressed.

†I have sympathy with the fears of the hon member for Klipspruit West, and I know that he has referred this matter to the SAP.

With regard to his question about Ennerdale and its local authority status I can state that the local authority functions will be taken over by a constituted structure of the Development and Housing Board as soon as the legal implications have been resolved. Ennerdale will not receive autonomy as a local authority.

*I associate myself with the standpoints of the hon members for Matroosfontein and Robertson that we must ultimately obtain direct representation in town councils and that the present system of management committees results in duplication.

The hon member for Bonteheuwel referred to the upgrading of Bonteheuwel by a development board. This also applies to Hanover Park, Kensington, Elsies River, Parkwood, Lavender Hill, Heideveld, Retreat and Manenberg. The upgrading scheme presently exceeds R12 million. However, that is not all. In Austerville in Durban, the sum of R36 million is being spent over five years. Eldorado Park and Klipdam are presently being upgraded at a cost of approximately R5 million. Riverlea in Blanco near George underwent a transformation at a cost of several million rand. Upington as well as Mariann Ridge were also not forgotten.

The hon member for Border requested that certain land in Port Elizabeth and in East London be purchased. However, our department is already involved in negotiations with the Department of Development Planning as well as the local authorities concerned with regard to the acquisition and development of adequate land. I also want to give him the assurance that no autonomy is being envisaged for management committees, as was stated in the annual report of the CPA.

†I would like to explain to hon members that autonomy cannot be granted for two main reasons; finance or source of income and trained personnel. The road is open for us to work toward direct representation and the RSC is case in point. All races have been brought together within the RSC. I want to repeat that it is not possible to answer every question that every member has raised. Some we will answer if possible and as soon as possible. I want to remind hon members when we speak of corruption involving officials of local authorities that we should get our facts straight so that we do not stand corrected by merely following a newspaper report. I have sympathy with the hon members concerning the shortage of homes. I would like to thank the hon members who come to my office to arrange meetings with the management committees. This is being done by the hon members for Britstown and Elsies River.

With regard to the matter raised by the hon member for Southern Free State as to why Whites do not have self-help housing, the answer is obvious; there is an oversupply of White housing. [Interjections.] Thousands of homes are standing empty in White areas and I know it is a shame. It is the Group Areas Act. Besides this, however, the Whites of this country are living in a higher income group because of their advantage. Therefore they can afford to buy a house that is built for them. We are dealing with a poverty community, from which comes this whole question of what we are going to do about housing. Take for instance the constituency of the hon member for Southern Free State.

*The hon member has serious problems with small communities in which up to 60 families live in a small town in the Southern Free State. From that regional office in Bloemfontein, our department will have to implement a strategy in order to upgrade those little towns.

†I have replied to many of the hon members. As I have said, I cannot go into all of the hon members and every detail. I will go home with a happy heart after some hon members’ explanations of the self-help building scheme. If anything is near to my heart, it is this particular scheme. I will not repeat what I said yesterday, but the hon members themselves have also reported what is happening for the first time in the rural areas.

I want to thank the hon members for Heidedal and Hantam.

*I wish hon members could visit these little towns on the platteland. I want to repeat what I said yesterday. How can the people of Brandvlei, Riviersonderend and Genadendal do this successfully and why does it not work in other places?

†Mr Chairman, we must investigate the matter. I want to explain to hon members what my problem is. My budget has been cut. Hon members know that and some even mentioned it. That means they have to built twice the number of houses for the same amount of funds. That is what hon members have to do! Hon members know for a fact that the major share of the housing fund in the country’s Budget goes to the Black community. It is a fact! One can see how those funds are being spent.

What must be done with the funds available to us as far as our community is concerned? We must try to use the funds to the best of our ability. That is where self-help housing comes into the picture.

I want to thank the hon member for Bokkeveld for explaining the matter of community committees.

*When we held an election in Ceres, we formed a committee to work out a development strategy for the upgrading of the platteland. We are looking at regional development.

†I am glad the hon member for Border raised the question of squatters again. Mr Chairman, I have great respect for squatters because, as poor as they are, they build their own homes and they ask nobody for a subsidy. These are the people who merit our attention.

*Thanks very much to the hon member for Karee for his good wishes to the department as a result of what is being done in his constituency.

†I want to thank the hon member for Northern Transvaal too. He knows how his area was neglected in the past. As I said yesterday, I am proud of the people in Pietersburg.

*A woman erected the first self-help house in Pietersburg.

†I agree entirely with the points raised by the hon member for Ottery about the initiatives we have to take in housing the poor. I know the waiting list in the Cape Peninsula is long but one will find that the Cape Peninsula people will have to move away from the centre core of the city because of urbanisation. This is where Blue Downs and Delft comes into the picture.

*I also want to thank the hon member for Rawsonville. If there is an hon member who tries to prevent the eviction and maltreatment of his people, he is the one. I want to congratulate him on all his efforts.

†I travelled with the hon member for Eersterus during the election. I know what he is talking about and he has my sympathy. We have enjoyed success in his constituency and will therefore continue with our efforts.

The first prize in the Transvaal went to the community of Nelspruit for a self-help building project. They built a new township at White River. This is what the department is forced to do in order to house people in that area.

*I now want to congratulate my champion self-builder, the hon member for Genadendal. We tease him because he is short, but he is tall in stature when it comes to other human qualities.

†I want to compliment him on what he has achieved in his constituency.

I want to thank members. I am grateful for the hon members’ honesty and the manner in which they all addressed their cases. I might not have liked some of the remarks and I might have taken offence at what some hon members said but I respect them for what they said, their speeches will be published in Hansard, we will look at their problems and, if necessary, we will reply to them in writing as soon as possible.

Order! Before the House adjourns, I want to thank the hon the Minister personally for the pleasant manner in which he dealt with his Vote.

Debate concluded.

Order! I am certain that all hon members will join me in conveying to the hon member for Glenview and the hon member for Red Hill our hearty congratulations on their appointments as Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and Minister of Housing and as Minister of Local Government and Agriculture, respectively.

We hope and pray that they will have a fruitful term of office and that their contributions will lead to the progress of our country and the happiness of all those who live in it.

Mr Chairman, I may not be allowed to associate myself with your remarks on the appointment of the hon member for Glenview as Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon member for Red Hill as Minister of Local Government and Agriculture. Our regret is that the former Minister of Local Government and Agriculture has not been formally informed that he has been relieved of his position.

Order! Hon members will have ample opportunity in the course of their speeches to convey their congratulations. I think I have done so on behalf of the House.

Mr Chairman, I seek the leave of the House to move the notice of motion that appears on the Order Paper in altered form, as follows:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, in the first place I want to extend my heartiest congratulations to the hon member for Glenview on his appointment as Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and as Minister of Housing, and also to the hon member for Red Hill on his appointment as Minister of Local Government and Agriculture.

My party is indeed most desirous that these two appointments, in conjunction with the existing members on the Ministers’ Council, will serve to improve the standard of deliberations and activities of the House of Delegates so that the tarnished image of the House of Delegates will be transformed. May God guide them and may wisdom be their guiding star in all their activities.

I now come to the budget speech of the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. I wish to congratulate the hon the Minister on his budget speech. However, I must hasten to add that a lot is still left to be desired as far as meeting the aspirations of our community is concerned. I understand that the hon the Minister works under constraints imposed on him by the State Treasury. I also know that it is not always possible to meet all the needs of his department and all the requirements of the community.

However, I blame this anomaly squarely on the Government. It is because of the discriminatory policy of the State that we are in such an anomalous situation. We cannot adequately cater for the community’s needs regarding health services and welfare. For the past five years we have been saying that until the State brings health services and welfare under one Ministry, we shall continue to have the kind of problems which we have at the moment. There is a lack of money and the hon the Minister cannot adequately cater for the needs of the community.

Since the arrival of the Indians in 1960 …

1860!

I beg you pardon. Since the arrival of the Indians in 1860, we have continued to campaign for the self-realisation of our community. We have built our own schools, we have paid for our education and we have tilled the soil to help make South Africa what it is today. However, we are still being harassed in that we have to make do with this sort of finance. It is not adequate and we therefore cannot meet the needs of our community. The discriminatory policy of the South African Government must come to an end or else we shall not be able to meet our obligations to our community.

For the past four years we have said that this Ministry needs more money. As far as I can see the Department of Health Services and Welfare needs to do more preventive work than repair work, as one might call it. One rather prevents a child from falling over a precipice than letting the child loose and building a hospital at the bottom of the cliff so that he can be treated there. This is what is happening here.

More fieldwork is necessary and our community must be educated. In order to do that, qualified social workers are necessary and community work and day-care centres become essential. Working with the community is more important than working for the community and therefore the Department of Health Services and Welfare should concentrate more on the fieldwork that is to be done in the community than on the curing that has to be done later on.

This way we shall be able to help the community to know what is actually required to prevent the consequences of diseases and other health hazards. I know that nurses go out to schools to do certain preventive work in the fields of nutritional, dental and eye care. This is the work of the school nurses, but in my opinion the department should also educate the children in schools as to what is necessary to bring their health up to standard so that it will not deteriorate later in their lives.

Together with this, one also has to take into consideration all the other activities, such as the socio-economic, cultural and political problems that the communities are confronted with. The community work in this respect comes to be of paramount importance and therefore I would ask the hon the Minister to devote all his attention to community work and to pay more attention to preventive work. That way we may be able to help our community to build up a very healthy nation.

Last year I inquired from the hon the Minister about the psychiatric nurses in psychiatric hospitals. The question was posed why the nurses attached to the psychiatric division of the Administration: House of Delegates do not get a recruitment allowance, whereas nurses in the other administrations are receiving this allowance. The reply was that the nurses are not attached to provincial psychiatric hospitals and are therefore not given this recruitment allowance.

One must take into account that the Department of Health Services and Welfare has a neuro-clinic in which there are psychiatric patients who have to be attended by these nurses. These nurses go through some difficult moments with the neuro-patients and this is a very difficult task. If the nurses of the department of the House of Assembly get this recruitment allowance, why should our nurses not? Must they necessarily be attached to a provincial hospital? The House of Delegates has its own neuro-clinic and therefore these nurses should be given that recruitment allowance.

This would encourage them to do a better job than they are doing at the moment. It is not that they are not doing good work but the fact that they are not receiving what the other nurses under the administration of the House of Assembly are receiving, makes their work more difficult. This disparity makes it more difficult. I think our hon Minister of Health Services and Welfare should see the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development in order that the psychiatric nurses can be treated on a par with the other nurses.

I now come to the question of pensions. Persons of 65 and over are entitled to an old-age pension. If a pensioner gets a part-time job or a small menial job from which he receives an income, and if he is honest about this and tells the department that he receives perhaps R50 a week or R100 a month from this additional job, his social pension is reduced. In some cases it is even terminated.

I think this is an anomaly. What we are trying to do here is to encourage that person to lie to the department by not admitting that he is doing the work. Otherwise, we are encouraging him to do the job and lose the small grant that he receives from the department as a pension. After all, that pension is contributed by the taxpayer and the pensioner, until he had reached the age of 65, was a taxpayer himself. Why should he therefore be deprived of that pension?

This anomaly is prevalent in our community and I think the hon the Minister has to formulate a system whereby this situation can be accommodated. Our pensioners should not be harassed because they are receiving an additional income to their pension.

Finally, I come to the matter of occupational and rehabilitation centres. In his speech the hon the Minister says that he is endeavouring to build such centres for disabled people. I think this is an essential facility for disabled people in order that they can receive sheltered employment. Their expertise can be put to good use and the community can derive some benefit from the labour of these disabled people.

I want to ask the hon the Minister to expedite the execution of his plans. Over the past three years nothing has been done. Now the hon the Minister says that something is about to be done, that the plans are at hand and that he intends to have the rehabilitation centres built as soon as possible. May I ask him to do this as soon as he can.

The hon the Minister of the Budget made mention of day-care centres. I want to reiterate the need for these centres. Many parents, because of their economic circumstances, are both employed in various institutions or factories, or they are seeking employment. Their small children are left in the care of neighbours or someone at home. What eventually happens is that these children go astray and juvenile delinquency develops. We find that these children have serious problems later when they are grown up.

In order to avoid this, I think it is essential for day-care centres to be provided in our community, because people who find such employment can then leave their children in an institution where they will be well-supervised and taken care of. In this way the child can be prepared for school. This sort of facility is prevalent in other communities. Why should it not be so in our community? I ask the hon the Minister to expedite this facility as well, in order for the image of our community to improve even from childhood. Thereby, the welfare problem will be reduced to a very low level. All the problems of juvenile delinquency begin with children not being taken care of when they are in their infant stage up to school-going age, because of the parents who need to be employed in institutions in order to supplement their income. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, before I start I would like to place on record my congratulations and best wishes to our new Director of Health Services, Dr Maharaj. I know that he will do an excellent job and I hope the period he spends with this administration will be fruitful. I know he will do a good job, because we have been colleagues for some time now.

I would like to inform the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare that his three wickets in a row with regard to the budget speech are not going to get my accolade as he expects. Now, after three years, this hon Minister has the temerity to stand up in this House and expect roses and other flowers to be placed at his feet when so much has yet to be achieved. However, I cannot blame him because he is really trying, despite the instability in this House.

I have stated before in this House and I state it again that emulation of a White upper-class structure of health services and the putting up of meaningless impractical buildings without vision is not really going to help us. It is of no consequence and is a costly affair. The people that we represent and the people that I come into contact with every day, are of such a poor and low socio-economic standing that even the R12 or R8 that they have to pay on visiting a provincial hospital is too much for them.

We have spoken about the means test and this House has taken decisions on more than one occasion to give it top priority. However, this administration, that is part and parcel of the White administration, sees fit to ignore the crux of the matter and gives increases without taking the inflation rate into account. Moreover, the recent increase in GST to 13% will have a devastating effect on the poor and in particular on the pensioners who cannot cope on the small amount of money given to them.

I agree with the hon the Minister that there should be fewer pensioners and more money left over for people who deserve it. However, how can it be possible for a disability grant to be terminated after two, three or four years? How can the cases of people who received such a grant be reviewed and suddenly they are found no longer to be permanently unfit? It would be better in the first place not to award them any pension in these circumstances, because once one gives them a pension one takes them out of the labour market. One makes them less active. In fact one makes them rely on the House of Delegates and one makes them lazy. To then suddenly withhold support, is cruel and an unjust thing to do.

I know of a particular instance where a young teacher came to see me because his mother had donated her house to him. No money changed hands and the widow who lived with her son had neither enriched herself nor benefited from this donation. Immediately this happened, her disability grant was terminated. This woman was 58 years old and she had diabetes, a heart condition as well as some peripheral vascular disease. This woman, after having been declared totally and permanently unfit, was now told that she was fit. She died, four months after her grant was terminated, of a heart attack and diabetes-related complications.

I agree with this hon Minister that about 15%—in fact I would say about 25%—of the pensioners and other people who receive disability grants do not actually deserve them or qualify for them. I would also agree that parity and adjusting the means test would require a lot of money—I think that as the hon the Minister of the Budget has said, it would cost in the vicinity of R55 million. However, the question I would like to pose is this: How is it that this administration can afford to waste a lot of taxpayers’ money. I think the hon the Minister of the Budget mentioned that we have about 16 court cases pending, and we had a commission of inquiry costing about R300 000. Then there is the point on the Order Paper: We also have to bail out a particular MP to the amount of R300 000 for a bad or irregular business deal in Laudium.

This hon Minister often talks about severe restrictions, both financial and personnelwise, under own affairs. However, we fail to realise that it is the existence of this own affairs Chamber and this concept that is causing this country economic ruin. [Interjections.] The duplication of services and staff and departments is costing the taxpayers money. In 1985 the Federal Council of the Medical Association took a stand and reiterated their viewpoint that health services should be under a single administrative Ministry.

The Medical Association represents at least 70% to 80% of the 14 000 doctors registered with the SAMDC in this country. Surely this decision can be regarded as the official standard view of the organised medical profession. The same happened in 1985: We found that the deans of the faculties of medicine considered certain options under this new Constitution. They, too, agreed unanimously that administration of all health matters, whether preventative or curative and whether at primary, secondary or tertiary level, should fall under a single administration as a general affair, and that any other arrangement would seriously impair the development of health policy.

Does this administration know of any other person or body outside Parliament or the Government service who is in favour of health service facilities being broken up into general and own affairs? I think not.

I note with amusement that this administration concedes in respect of the responsibility for the take-over of hospitals that where, because of inadequate finances, the hospitals cannot function to the benefit of the community, they will not be taken over. For this I will applaud the hon the Minister for his frankness. In his speech he states:

Mr Chairman, I do not want to be too negative or critical. However, I want to remind the hon the Minister that all the so-called good that we have seen over the past three or even four years of the tricameral system has not, nor is it likely to be in the near future, evaluated as good or bad. What one is in fact evaluating at this time or expecting praise for, is based on the evaluation of process and not outcome. It is only when evaluating outcome, however, that we can determine to what extent the desired results have been achieved. Therefore when we discard outcomes and indicators, it immediately becomes obvious that health service objectives must be defined and quantified and priorities must be determined if our resources are to meet the needs of the country.

In the absence of criteria, neither the analysis of base needs nor objectives and priorities can be settled. Furthermore, if we are to determine priorities, due consideration must be given to the acceptability of services—that is, whether the Indian community accepts and utilises the services provided.

This can be looked at in terms of safety, risk and cultural factors on the one hand, and on the other hand, equality can be seen as a concept of acceptability. There should be equal rights to equal service. Separate can, therefore, never be equal. There should also be equal rights to health care or a compromise between utility and equity—where utility is seen as the greatest good to the greatest number, and equity where the health of the majority should be attained at the expense of great hardship to a minority.

It is incumbent on this administration which is in power and those who are responsible for determining health care policy to urgently define the objectives for health services. That is the end which must then determine the means. There are several of these objectives.

First of all we must establish criteria of need, and we look at this demographically—population size; age; sex distribution and socio-economic status. This is very obvious in our communities. Not only does population size, age, sex and socio-economic status vary from suburb to suburb and from province to province, but the health needs of individuals—for example those living in Clare Estate—differ very much from the health needs of a person living in Verulam, Isipingo, Wentworth, Springfield or Chatsworth, for example.

Next we must establish the real health care needs of all sections of the population and define geographical entities—not ethnic or racial compartments. We must then determine priorities for meeting the established needs. Thereafter we must provide policy guidelines in regard to the provision of super-specialised services, care of the aged, of the disabled, of mentally ill children and the provision of high-cost therapy like dialysis, renal scans and psychotropic drugs which we use in chemotherapy for the treatment of cancer.

Fifthly we must determine the responsible roles and responsibilities of the public and private sectors, based on comparative costing methodology. Effective co-ordination and rationalisation of public health services must be ensured to ensure adherence to ethical principles in the provision of our health care. Then we must increase the percentage of funding for preventative services to not less than 15% of the total health care budget at least. I know this cannot be done overnight but we can at least aim to achieve this by the year 1992 when, I think, this unstable House should have an election.

We must also ensure the availability of accurate and timely health care information. A strategy must be formulated for the achievement of the above objectives within a predetermined time scale. The adopted strategy must be implemented by allocating resources according to the defined needs and priorities. It will, for example, be senseless to build a chest clinic for tuberculosis in a place like Reservoir Hills.

Do you think we have no chests?

Lastly we must ensure equal opportunities of access and health care for all people at equal risk.

In conclusion, I would like to suggest to the hon the Minister and his department that they should adopt a multidisciplinary approach similar to that of the Social Security Committee he formed last year. In this he can incorporate academics and health service people who are very active in the field, to analyse the diversity of needs which exist from the one part of the Indian community to the other; to assess the availability of services to meet these needs, be they medical or non-medical, and other additional requirements. Only then can this hon Minister and his administration determine priorities and practical recommendations for resource allocations.

Mr Chairman, first of all I would like to take this opportunity of congratulating the new hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. I am sorry to see that he is still a backbencher. He ought to be taking his rightful place on the front benches. We have many political differences, but those relate to matters of policy and principle. I have had the honour of having a personal friendship with the hon member for Glenview for more than 25 years and our personal friendship remains intact in spite of our—sometimes very vigorous—political arguments. My friend Sadiq Ali often wrote about the contribution made by the hon member for Glenview when he was in an executive position in the Indian Council. I think it is apposite at the present time just to recall some of those.

Together with the late A M Mundah and the late A M Rajab, he was responsible for simple things like getting members of the Indian community trained as electricians, technicians, engineers and fitters and turners. One does not always remember that these things were denied to members of the Indian community because of the colour bar, even before the system of apartheid was introduced, because in terms of the Industrial Conciliation Act they were not given that opportunity. Now, as a result of the work put in by other people and the hon member for Glenview, that has been achieved.

One must not forget that the saving of the Grey Street complex was largely the work of three people: A M Mundah, A M Rajab, and a man called J N Reddy. We recognise that.

I started the campaign for the return of Cato Manor in 1973. Mr Moolla co-operated with me in that and after Mr Moolla died, it was a man called J N Reddy who took up the fight. I had to push him, but he had the courage to confront the Ministers and part of Cato Manor has been restored. We remember these things.

In the 25 years I have known him, he has never told me a lie. Sometimes he did not tell me everything either. What I said yesterday, I still adhere to. His personal life and his business affairs he has conducted with integrity. I invite him to do exactly the same thing in political affairs, to avoid wheeling and dealing and to avoid carrot-dangling. After a good Chinese meal, bow-tie is a dessert. He must remember that too much bow-tie is also bad for one. I want to say that provided there is no wheeling and dealing, and none of the chicanery at which his predecessor was a master, we of the PFP will certainly render him our fullest co-operation in the interests, not only of the Indian community, but the community at large.

I invite him to dedicate himself to striving for the establishment of a truly non-racial society in South Africa, where not the colour or ethnicity of an individual, but the fact that he is a human being, will be the only factor, and where merit alone will count. Once he dedicates himself to that, he has the capacity for it, he will find that he gets far more help and co-operation than he ever dreamed of.

I would now like to refer to the work done by the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare.

I am not quite sure whether he realised what he was letting himself in for when he appointed me as a member of the three-man ministerial committee on health services and welfare to advise him. I said at that committee meeting that the hon the Minister knows me, and knowing me, he took a chance and appointed me. Therefore I am going to do in that committee what I think is right, not what the hon the Minister thinks is right. If he does not measure up to it in the House, we will hammer him in the House.

The establishment of day-care centres unfortunately does not relate to day-care centres for children, but to coughs and colds clinics. Therefore the minor ailments could be disposed of at local level and those patients need not go into hospital. I am going to give hon members one example. Take a simple thing like jaundice. Jaundice does not require hospitalisation. There is no need for a patient to occupy a bed in a hospital, a bed which probably costs R120 a day, even in a State hospital. The cost of maintaining a patient in a bed in hospital is about R120 per day. That patient can be looked after at home by a visiting doctor and by a visiting nurse. I am sorry that the hon the Minister has not instituted a proper home visiting programme by health nurses. In the Cape we had district nurses who did excellent work in the past. If the hon the Minister wants information on that, it is readily available. The health clinics must offer a little bit more than just providing clinical services. At that level preventative medicine, community health medicine, could really be instituted. I invite the hon the Minister—we will advise him from that committee in due course—to give attention to that.

The chief drawback, regrettably so far, in the activities of that department, is that the hon the Minister has not yet put forward a proper programme for a proper social welfare system for those under his jurisdiction. We do not need ad hoc activities. He says in his address that we are not a welfare State. Yes, we are not a welfare State, regrettably. What is a welfare state? A welfare state is one in which people who have money contribute by way of taxes towards the assistance of those people who are indigent and in needy circumstances. It simply means ordinary human decencies. If a person is ill in the street, no ordinary decent human being simply shuts his eyes and walks past, he stops and assists the sick person. That is exactly what is required in societal terms, when welfare services are provided on an organised and co-ordinated basis, for those in need.

I can see absolutely no reason why, under his jurisdiction, a welfare state should not be established. We do not have to go to the Minister of National Health and Population Development for permission. The State President has declared this to be an own affair. If we do that, let us show up the inadequacies in the system of apartheid.

As the hon member for Montford pointed out, the system of apartheid, the tricameral system, is costing hundreds of millions of rands, which can be saved. As the national chairman of Solidarity pointed out, a multiplicity of Ministers is unnecessary. That money can be saved. That money can provide the R55 million which is required to introduce parity in the case of pensioners. I think it is utterly disgraceful that that has not yet been achieved. It is not sufficient to say that the funds are not there. This Government has adequate funds to develop Armscor, to spend billions of rands building aeroplanes and helicopters and on submarines they want to buy. They have already bought submarines. If they have money for that kind of thing, then money must be found to preserve the health and welfare of the people in this country. After all, it is the people of any country who constitute the real wealth of that country, because it is the people of a country who provide the labour that enables industry and commerce to flourish, which makes profitability of business activity which puts taxes into the fiscus.

The hon the Minister says in his report that 15,4% of pensioners do not deserve their pensions. I find this rather extraordinary. Either he is confessing to absolute inefficiency and incompetence on the part of his department in that his department granted pensions to 15,4% of persons who were not entitled to those pensions, or his criteria of re-evaluation are completely wrong.

We have had complaints at constituency level from old-age pensioners and disabled persons who have had their grants cut off for no apparent reason. After complaints had been made to the hon the Minister, those grants were reinstated. Clearly this figure may well be wrong. Unfortunately this is a double-edged sword that the hon the Minister has wielded. Whichever way he touches it, his hands get cut. Either his department is inefficient in one direction, or it is incompetent in the other direction. We do not want this situation to continue.

I would like to thank the hon the Minister for establishing a rehabilitation centre for alcoholics and drug dependents. There is a desperate need for magistrates to commit persons such as alcoholics who do need treatment. Persons who abuse drugs and who abuse their families need to be sent to these correction centres where they can be rehabilitated. However, I want to add that a voluntary patient always responds better to treatment. Here, regrettably, the department is incorrect when it implies that facilities will not be available for more than 100 people. If one has a person committed to an institution, and one also has another person who goes there of his own volition, one will find that the voluntary patient recovers far more rapidly and at far less cost, both to the department and the community in the long run.

Another bold step was the establishment of an occupational therapy centre. However, why should there be one only on a referral basis? This is required desperately. I myself have had marginal experience with occupational therapy work for tuberculosis patients. That is very necessary in every institution. The Department of Health Services and Welfare must also provide avenues for sheltered employment. No mention has been made of this. Admittedly, this comes chiefly under the control of the Department of Manpower, but the Department of Manpower is doing absolutely nothing in that connection in the case of persons under the jurisdiction of the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. However, it is his responsibility to co-ordinate that activity and make sure that something is done. Why is there no provision made for a health clinic in Pelikan Park?

We need a mental clinic!

In Newlands West there is a Fousa clinic. Hon members will know that I had a part in establishing that clinic which operates on a non-racial basis. The hon the Minister, either through the department or the province which runs the clinic at the present time, could expand that clinic to serve the whole of Newlands West. I invite the hon the Minister to do that. I have already offered the hon the Minister land free of charge. I have also offered him R1 million from a certain organisation if he would be prepared to establish a proper hospital in that area. A hospital is a matter of desperate urgency. There is no point in waiting until one has 500 000 people without a hospital. The hon the Minister must do something about it.

There are 1 507 pupils in 11 special schools in Natal. This number seems to be rather large. It also seems to indicate serious problems in the community. Perhaps the hon the Minister of Education and Culture will also give us further information about this. We notice that offices are being opened in various centres. That, of course, adds to the cost. We have to be careful that not too much money is spent on administration, because that will make less money available for direct health and relief work. That will be inimical to the interests of the community.

I realise that this is also a product of the own affairs system. It is a legacy of apartheid which is inflicted upon the hon the Minister, but he must not simply go and establish offices holus bolus. Surely other offices could be used to serve these small communities. Magistrates’ offices could be used for this purpose, in which case only one or two clerks may be necessary. If we do that, this tremendous amount of expenditure will not be necessary. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, having listened to the hon member for Reservoir Hills I think it is a pity that he did not continue, because the examination that was being carried out by him was a critical analysis of the report based on his own experience. I think we would have profited a little more if the hon member had continued.

I want to take this opportunity to tell the House that there was prompt acknowledgement—in most instances signed by the hon the Minister himself—of all the letters that my constituency representatives wrote to the hon the Minister’s department. That is heartening. At least the hon the Minister is aware of the correspondence emanating from constituency representatives. If he signs the acknowledgement, it follows that he would have the mechanism and the machinery to ensure that there would be an adequate response within a reasonable period of time. On that score he is conspicuous and I want to compliment him on that.

The question of pensions is a matter that has been canvassed at length in this forum since the commencement of this institution. If these bases were to be applied for another 20 years we would continue to more or less repeat what we said here on the first occasion. It is an absolute necessity to look after those who have no other means of support when they reach a pensionable age and it is the responsibility of the State to ensure that these unfortunate persons can also have a decent standard of living.

Taking into consideration the population growth in this country and the population projections, it is of paramount importance to the country as a whole that an all-embracing compulsory pension scheme must be instituted so that when a person obtained employment he would from that moment contribute to a pension scheme. Even if he were to change employers during his working career his contributions would continue. That would ensure that when he reached a pensionable age he would be able to obtain a reasonable pension.

I made the point before that in the case of the workers in the lower income groups a third party could contribute to a scheme. It could be the State making a small contribution initially and saving large payments for when the person reached pensionable age.

I have been given to understand that a committee is shortly to be constituted to investigate this whole question. Hopefully we shall be able to make representations on the basis of submissions made in this House, so that some permanent machinery can be created to take care of the needs of both men and women when they reach pensionable age. In my opinion that must definitely be done.

It has been reported here before that projections indicate that if we are to continue paying out State pensions on the present scale, by the turn of the century the entire budget will, in fact, not be adequate to cover this need. Whether it is the turn of the century or thereabouts really does not matter. The fact remains that this is a liability which, if not handled properly, could cause other areas of State responsibility to suffer equally. We have patterns elsewhere in the world where pension schemes which are adequately planned and instituted, serve a useful purpose. I believe that this requirement has to be addressed and resolved without much further delay.

One must also take note—although this is nothing to write home about—that the fact remains that over the past five years there has been an appreciable increase in the amount of pension money paid to the Indian community. When one compares these figures with those of the White group, it is clear than an effort is being made to try to restore pensions to the basis where everybody will receive an equal amount.

It just keeps up with the inflation rate!

I think the pattern of increases over the past five years again supports the contention and my submissions made earlier that we must reduce to a very small minimum the number of people who look to the State for a pension. Those people should then receive an adequate pension. In order to achieve that, I think the private sector must play a role and get involved to ensure that we have pension schemes outside the welfare set-up of this country so that people can receive a reasonable pension.

I am also pleased that there has been progress with regard to the rehabilitation of alcoholics and drug abusers. I was very privileged in the past week to have been able to accompany the hon member for Phoenix on a visit to some of those people in a home. When one visits these people, one has an indication of what is being done to help them to rehabilitate themselves.

Furthermore, one sees the kind of contributions these people are making to help their brothers to rehabilitate themselves. There is a wonderful fellowship amongst them. Hopefully the completion of this centre will revitalise this movement in the Phoenix area so that the problems that people have can be addressed earlier with a view to having them rehabilitated and restored to their families.

I want to refer to the place of safety at Sydenham. I am pleased that moves are now afoot to construct a new building to replace the old establishment. Hopefully this will be available to the community in the not too distant future.

I want to support what was said by the hon member for Reservoir Hills, namely that medicine and the provision of medical services need to be examined from time to time with a view to finding new opportunities and new directions. The hon member said that there are illnesses that can be treated at a clinic or by persons visiting private homes so as to avoid the pressures that develop at hospitals when people become really sick and have to queue up for medical attention. I believe that our Ministry must give some attention to this matter.

One should try to avoid having people queue up at hospitals at a stage where they are really ill. If early attention can be paid to the symptoms that are detectable, the situation can be remedied. In this way one can avoid the subsequent developments and the complaints that flow from the inability of patients to receive attention in hospitals within a reasonable period of time.

I have received some complaints from people attending the offices of our department in Chatsworth. However, I want to mention to the hon the Minister that amongst older people, those between 65 and 70 years of age, and particularly in the case of ladies, many of these people cannot communicate adequately in English. There is a reason for that and often their complaints or submissions are not adequately understood and the responses are not what is expected of the people who are attending them. I think there is a communication gap.

With regard to what I said earlier, it is important in places like Phoenix, Chatsworth and other areas to have persons who can at least communicate in one of the Indian languages—Hindi, Tamil or Telegu. I think then one would be able to get through to the people and the people would be able to express adequately what they want to talk about and the people listening to them would understand, so that we do not have problems arising from lack of communication. That problem is a reality and it has to be addressed. One cannot just ride roughshod over this. I would like the hon the Minister to examine this situation. It is a phase we have to go through, but it exists and it has to be addressed.

Following upon what the hon member for Reservoir Hills said, the number of handicapped people that are being identified is increasing and as facilities are built, it is likely that more people will want to take advantage of the facilities available to them. On the other hand, we need to find some kind of occupation for these people. I understand we have public relations officers for their education. What I think will be more appropriate, is a marketing officer who could go around to prospective employers and tell them that, for example, we have a switchboard operator who is blind but who has been trained as a switchboard operator. He can tell them that we have so-and-so who can operate a computer, but who has a handicap, for example he wears a steel brace or something like that. In doing such work the man would be earning his keep and at the same time making a wonderful positive contribution towards helping these people.

I made the point earlier on that even in the case of our students training at the technical high schools, we must do something to ascertain whether these people are getting jobs. If they are not getting jobs, let these so-called public relations officers get on their horses and go to factories to find out what the situation is and sell their products. We do not need any other kind of public relations. What we need are some marketing people. When we have marketing people finding jobs for our students and people in these special categories, that in itself would be a public relations exercise. It will advertise itself.

Finally, I also want to refer to an issue which was raised earlier this morning in the House, namely the question of subsidies. I want to say—I make that commitment here and I will have the support of my colleagues—that at the earliest possible opportunity this question of subsidies for housing must be addressed so that all people, irrespective of their colour, get the same subsidy. That is something we cannot deny our people. Interest rates are going up. There has been a move in one area to even consider extending first-time buyer subsidies to be given for second-hand homes. It is a good thing, because I think second-hand homes are of a far better quality these days and pricewise one might be able to strike a bargain. There is no reason, if a first-time buyer is involved, why he should not get a subsidy. However, these are matters we must take up and we will certainly take them up. I want to acknowledge the submissions made by hon members from across the floor. I am certainly taking note of that.

I then come to the question of the rehabilitation and the need for work opportunities for disabled people. After the war the Ex-servicemen’s Industry was established in Durban and soldiers who had been wounded were building school furniture. I think they still do that. I believe that in a small way we should be able to do something similar, even if half a dozen people are occupied repairing school desks and furniture. I am sure that a sheltered workshop where woodwork is done, could adequately serve the needs of our own schools in repairs and a certain amount of new furniture. At least these people will be kept occupied and we will be able to establish a balance with regard to how far we can go with this.

Who knows, it could become an adjunct to the Ministry, providing certain facilities for the Education Division, while at the same time serving a more useful purpose in that people who have been injured or crippled can be actively employed and go about with dignity and self-respect instead of being the receivers of alms and cold charity. I should like to commend this to the hon the Minister.

Mr Chairman, it pleases me to come in just after the hon member for Glenview and Chairman-elect of the Ministers’ Council. He has made a valuable contribution here this morning. In addition, just before him the hon member for Reservoir Hills made an extremely good speech this morning. I think that if the hon member for Reservoir Hills continues along the lines that he spoke this morning he will always be an asset to this House.

[Inaudible.]

I am going to be somewhat critical of hospital services this morning, but I am not going to launch a personal attack on the hon the Minister because he is not totally responsible for the situation in which we are.

As hon members are aware, over the years many people other than White have suffered the indignity of being turned away from hospitals simply because of the colour of their skin. I refer in particular to what has been happening in the Transvaal. During the past few years, and particularly during the discussion of the Votes of the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare and the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development, several hon members of this House as well as of the other Houses have repeatedly highlighted the discriminatory practices in hospitals as a result of the application of the policy of apartheid. Although South Africa has now entered a new era of social change following the new Constitution of the RSA, the media have from time to time reported on incidents where certain hospitals continue to be run along lines of racial segregation and non-Whites are being refused admission because the hospital is reserved for Whites only. In some instances the patients have died hours after being refused hospitalisation.

This state of affairs is not one of isolated incidents but is fairly general in hospital services in the Transvaal. I wish to mention some incidents that have happened recently, some in hospitals in the North Eastern Transvaal such as Groblersdal and near Marble Hall, where there are sizeable Indian communities to whom even emergency services are denied.

I have discussed this with the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare and he in turn, I must say, through his good offices, has arranged several meetings with the MEC in charge of hospital services in the Transvaal at which we highlighted these particular problems that we are experiencing. Although this was done, we still see no change.

Coming back to topical matters, this hon Minister must be complimented for stepping in late last year and commissioning the hospital at Lenasia. We know that the Transvaal Provincial Administration was not prepared to open the hospital because of a lack of funds, and our hon Minister somehow found R10 million somewhere in his kitty. He said: “Very well, there is a hue and cry from the community, so let us open up the hospital. We shall provide bridging finance for the time being.” I think that the Minister really deserves our compliments in this regard.

He always comes to the rescue.

He has come to the rescue many times before, and he has done so here again, as someone interjected. There have been some criticisms of the way this was done and in respect of the appointment of the hospital board. I think the matter will be mentioned to the Minister, namely that he has appointed members who do not live in the district. I think he will rectify those minor matters.

In respect of this particular hospital I believe that the hon the Minister has again appropriated funds for the continuation of the services of the hospital for the following year. We still have problems and one is that it does not provide a 24-hour emergency service. There have been various meetings which I attended with the hon the Minister and the MEC in charge of hospital services in the Transvaal. We are trying to find some solution.

The MEC in charge of hospital services said that the hospital was not viable. Statistics show that the intake at the hospital is too small to alllow a 24-hour service. This is also applicable to the hospital at Laudium. We know it, and another reason which has been given is that there is no co-operation from the resident Indian doctors in both Laudium and Lenasia where they want to work in certain sessions. This is not true, and we know that the Indian doctors also have a case. Their consulting rooms are outside Laudium and Lenasia and if they are on call, it means that they have to leave their consulting rooms and run to the hospital. One way we have discussed to solve this problem in the Laudium hospital is to allow patients of all colour to be admitted. This is the policy of the department.

The hon the Minister has given me his support so that we can tell the province that we have no objection if people of colour are allowed to be admitted to the hospital at Laudium as long as we get a 24-hour emergency service. This is applicable to the hospital at Lenasia as well. Although this hospital is open to Coloureds, Blacks and Whites, the figures of the intake of patients are too low to make it a viable proposition for a full-time hospital.

I am again appealing to the hon the Minister. In the case of Laudium, this hospital has some of the best qualified people serving on the hospital board—some of the most respected members of our community serve on this hospital board. However, they have become very frustrated. Among them they have collected some R300 000 to build a créche for the nurses. It has come from the community and this project has also been retarded by the province because it has got to be approved, it has got to be under their norms even though the funds are coming from the public. Everything has got to be done in consultation and this project has also taken three or four years before it comes off the scheme.

There is also an offer which the hon the Minister is well aware of. A certain philanthropist in the Transvaal has offered to donate a large sum of money to the hospital in Lenasia to be named after his trust. The money which amounts to about half a million rand can come in handy when we know that we need such money.

In my constituency many people complain that the offices of the Department of Health Services and Welfare are situated on the first floor of a building with a very narrow passage and a very steep staircase. We know that most of the people who visit the offices of the welfare section are elderly people. I appeal to the hon the Minister to do something to find more appropriate premises so that this particular facility can be on the ground floor and so that these people do not have to walk up those steps or have to be helped to get to the offices. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I firstly want to respond to my colleague the hon member for Montford, who felt that it was rather unfair that disability grants are stopped after four years. One must realise that—I will just take a hypothetical case—when a man has had an accident he will have recovered enough in four years and be able to work. Hence he does not qualify for a disability grant. Therefore, I think somewhere along the line my colleague erred in saying that his grant should continue.

I commence this debate on a very happy note. I congratulate Dr Maharaj on his appointment as head of the Department of Health Services and Welfare. I have had the pleasure of meeting Dr Maharaj on just two occasions and found him to be very amenable and knowledgeable, and above all, he is one with whom people can communicate. Do not misunderstand me; I have not asked Dr Maharaj for any favours, but he struck me as being very fair-minded and dedicated to his job and I am convinced that he will be a tremendous asset to our administration.

I do not want to credit the hon the Minister with being clairvoyant, but obviously he knows that I am going to be critical. The Indian community has a perennial problem, firstly, with the high inflation rate. A pension of R200 per month is unrealistic. Although the gap in comparison with Whites is slowly being narrowed, in my opinion the pace is too slow. I have argued previously that the hon the Minister is not being vociferous enough with the hon the Minister of Finance. He must seriously search his conscience. Is he there to promote the interests of the Indian community? If not, then the only honourable thing for him to do, is to resign and allow a more competent Minister to deliver the goods. To analyse the situation: What credentials does the present hon Minister have in this portfolio? Nil, in my view.

The hon the Minister has a tendency to make promises and budget speeches and everything is forgotten thereafter. The hon the Minister hails from an area where bilingualism is in vogue.

Therefore I will say to him: “Beloftes maak skuld” which translated into English means that promises are binding. As yet, after his third budget speech, he is unable to bring about any parity in the means test. I wish to pose this question: How much would it have cost to bring about parity in the means test? The hon the Minister’s report says it would cost R4,3 million. Why could he not have used some of the R12,5 million which the hon the Minister of the Budget has held in reserve, so that parity in the means test could have been brought about? The R28 000 means test, as compared to the R42 000 one applied to the Whites, to me is negligible, because there will not be many people who qualify for the additional amount required by the means test.

Let us look at donations to fixed property. The hon the Minister talks about legislation amending this issue. Why three years of talking but no action? The old people donate their property to their children, not because they want to defraud the Government, but because of the fact that they cannot afford bond repayments, rates, etc, and therefore they entrust that responsibility to their children. To penalise them for this for five years, to me is inhuman.

I recall a case where a widow was heir to one-tenth of an estate of R80 000. The department refused her a pension. My intervention in the matter helped this widow to obtain retrospectively, an amount in excess of R1 200. An error was made by the department somewhere along the line.

On 23 March 1988, at a study group meeting, the Ministers’ minutes reflect, and I quote:

To me this is a contradiction because in the pink book—the memorandum which the hon the Minister circulated—the following is stated.

Order! The hon member for Havenside has broken the line.

He is always breaking lines here. I quote from the memorandum:

Mr Chairman, somewhere along the line the hon the Minister has misled us because in this memorandum of 1988, he says he gives R14,00 and R9,90, but in his latest report he says it is now R12,17 and R9,00. I am just wondering if his Ministry is misleading him because of the fact that he has the inability to know exactly what is happening in his own department. Hence I am personally convinced that the hon the Minister must be fired for his incompetence.

Furthermore, the regional offices give relief to persons once in two weeks. May I repeat that the regional offices give relief to persons once in two weeks and not once a week as the hon the minister’s memorandum and his study group minutes reflect. Did you not double it after two weeks? Is the hon the Minister so lethargic that he is not monitoring this? Again his information is misleading to us as parliamentarians.

I now come to the question of nepotism. I have a series of questions to pose. I posed these questions for oral reply last year, but because of the fact that we had closed early, the hon the Minister was unable to reply. Hence I withdrew it and asked for a written reply. It is in Pietermaritzburg as it was posted to me there. However, it was most unsatisfactory, and I will read out the questions that I posed as follows:

1. 1. Whether a certain person whose name has been furnished to the Minister’s department for the purposes of his reply is employed by the House of Delegates. If so, what is his name?
2. 2. Whether this official has been promoted since September 1984. If so, when and to what post?
3. 3. Whether he had received a complaint from a member of Parliament in regards to fund-raising activities of this official in the name of the House of Delegates? If so, what action did he take in this regard?
4. 4. Whether items purchased from monies accrued from this fundraising drive were transferred with the official to Dalton Greenfield School of Safety? If so, why? If not, where are these items?
5. 5. Whether this fundraising drive was authorised by his department? If so, by whom and when? If not, on whose authority was this undertaken?
6. 6. Whether it is his intention to promote or transfer this official to the Durban rehabilitation centre? If so, when and why?
7. 7. Whether the wife of this official was employed at all institutions at which he was employed? If so, why?

I always say that the hon the Minister can crow or squeak about this. However, if he is levelheaded, he will remember Rudyard Kipling’s words:

I want to quote from a newspaper article which appeared in the Daily Dispatch, dated 21 October 1988. It reads, and I quote:

Another paragraph reads, and I quote:

Was that in your constituency?

Could the hon the Minister repeat his question?

Was that in your constituency?

I will tell the hon the Minister why I am reading this in just a while. Another paragraph reads, and I quote:

I now wish to come to the question that the hon the Minister raised. I am trying to prove that he goes about slandering and humiliating people. He does not have enough time to do his job. The hon the Minister can feel free to criticise me, because that is his prerogative. However, if he is man enough and Minister enough, he should also allow me the privilege of posing questions when the opportunity arises.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Allandale uses very high-falutin’ words, but in the effort he reduces himself to making petty statements which reflect his small-mindedness.

Last year the hon member for Allandale also made certain suggestions and remarks with regard to the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. He read out certain letters and really took the hon the Minister to task. Today he sits in this very forum and expects the hon the Minister to resign from his portfolio.

I want to tell the hon member for Allandale that it clearly reflects on his face that he is a very disappointed man. The hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare is a very distinguished person in that he believes in merit and merit alone. That is the answer at the end of the day. His Ministerial functions are executed on the basis of those principles. Now, if the hon member for Allandale is disappointed because some of his requests for favours were not acceded to by the hon the Minister, I do not blame him for calling on the hon the Minister to resign.

You obviously did not listen to my speech! You were sitting on your ears!

The hon member has written a number of letters in the past in which he asked favours for his family and other good friends. It is rather unfortunate that the hon member for Camperdown is not here, because he would have been able to verify my statements. He knows him very well and he knows his lifestyle.

We are privileged and honoured to have the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in our party and because of that he will continue to hold the very same portfolio. Because of his abilities it has never been our intention to deprive him of his portfolio. We have no doubt that he has the ability. Whenever a call was made by me personally the hon the Minister went out of his way to do his best. However, I, too, am somewhat disappointed and I do not like it when he makes statements without following them up.

In this respect I would like to point out to the hon the Minister that he made a policy statement some time ago in which he amplified very clearly the opening of the rehabilitation centre in Newlands West and the clinic in Hazelmere. Something must have gone wrong. We are concerned because both the rehabilitation centre and the clinic in Hazelmere were supposed to have opened last year. Both these facilities are important health requirements in our community and we cannot allow any further delay.

Earlier on my leader, the hon member for Glenview, indicated that rehabilitation centres are important institutions and if this particular institution in Newlands had been opened I am very certain we would have had a number of people by now who would have been educated to handle the problems and also to assist the community at large.

The budget speech as presented by the hon the Minister consists of 44 pages. I think it could have been reduced to half that amount because most of it reflects proposals and negotiations that have been going on for the past four years.

Whilst we have achieved some measure of relief, much is left to be desired in the field of health services and welfare. This service has been dislocated for many years and we are of the opinion that whilst we control the destiny of the Indian community at large we have to be very vociferous to have the power to demand as much money as possible. The hon the Minister claims that the R218 million which has been appropriated for this Ministry—an increase of 24,09%—is a record. I do not think that it is a record, because it is far from enough for our needs and desires.

Greater emphasis could be placed on the various needs of our community and I want to touch very briefly on the day-care clinics in high-density areas like Phoenix and Chatsworth and also the care of the aged which is very sadly neglected at the moment. We are aware of the fact that there are homes like the Aryan Benevolent Home for the Aged and other homes that are being subsidised by the department but we feel that that type of services is needed for those elderly people that are living with their families. They need to be cared for too. Great care needs to be taken of those people because their families are to some extent rendering services to them so that they do not become the responsibility of the State.

I am given to understand that a neuro-clinic for psychiatric services is proposed for Unit 6, Chatsworth. This is a much-needed facility in Chatsworth. I would like to suggest to the hon the Minister that he place greater emphasis on this service by providing it as soon as possible and also by opening Hazelmere House in Verulam without further delay.

It is already open.

Is it open? I have just been given to understand that it is open. If that is the case, I want to compliment him on that issue.

A very sad state of affairs exists in regard to the moratorium that has been imposed by the Commission for Administration not to create any posts. With the limited staff that we have at our disposal the Ministry of Health Services and Welfare is certainly not doing justice to those persons who actually go out of their way to accommodate the work of the Department of Health Services and Welfare.

The hon the Minister said in his speech that the accepted international workload for social workers is to handle 30 cases each but our staff members do more than twice that number, namely 70,5 cases per social worker. Is this in the interests of the social workers and the welfare cases? I feel that if these people have to work under such pressure then they are most certainly not doing justice to themselves or to the cases that they are investigating. It may be because of this pressure that the needs of many justifiable cases are overlooked.

I want to ask the hon the Minister to pay greater attention to this matter. He must seriously take it up with the Commission for Administration and ask for more personnel to be employed. We cannot continue with an understaffed department because great demands are placed on our health and welfare services.

The other issue that I would like to raise very briefly is the question of the hospital at Phoenix. Unfortunately my colleague the hon member for Phoenix is not here. A proposed hospital in Phoenix is being planned. The area has been in existence for over 12 years and is growing very fast. This matter was discussed and brought to our notice when I was still a member of the SA Indian Council. At that time it was the administrative staff of the Natal Provincial Administration who brought to us for our approval a number of plans and projects which they had anticipated. This has therefore been an ongoing issue for many years. This much needed facility in Phoenix is a matter of urgency and I do hope that the hon the Minister will pay special attention to the needs of this hard-pressed community. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, before I start I want to make a special appeal to hon members to stop talking in terms of linguistic groups. The hon member for Allandale just now referred to the question of sectionalism. Yesterday the hon member for Reservoir Hills did the same thing. We are all hon members of Parliament—we are not children. We must stop this nonsense of talking in terms of sectionalism. [Interjections.] We accuse the White Government of apartheid but what are we doing? We are practising the same rubbish here. The time has now come for us to put our House in order. [Interjections.]

I now want to turn to the debate. I have a newspaper here, the Early Times. The headline reads: “Young teen drinking and drugging at clubs still rife.” Liquor and drugs are rife in our community, especially among our younger generation and at our schools. Today they are even starting to use it at primary school level. The school principals and teachers are all faced with this problem and we must do something about it.

Then there are also the discos. I quote from the newspaper article as follows:

This is becoming a serious problem and I hope that the hon the Minister has taken note of it.

Especially in Unit 1.

Yes, in Unit 1. There is also Unit 11. The hon member for Moorcross will know that.

I put a question to the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development regarding the R K Khan Hospital. The question reads:

1. (1) (a) How many (i) doctors, (ii) nurses, (iii) administrative officials, (iv) cleaners and (v) other specified classes of employees were attached to the R K Khan Hospital in Chatsworth as at the latest specified date for which information is available and (b) how many vacancies were there in each of these categories as at that date;
2. (2) (a) what is the daily average number of persons attended to in the out-patient department of this hospital and (b) in respect of what specified period is this information furnished?

The reply was that the latest specified date was 28 February 1989 and there were:

1. (1)
   1. (a)
      1. (i) 72 Doctors
      2. (ii) 671 Nurses
      3. (iii) 121 Administrative officials
      4. (iv) 280 Cleaners
      5. (v) Other specified groups:
         23 Professionals
         21 Paramedical
         18 Technical
         80 General
         11 Interns
   2. (b) Vacancies as at 28 February 1989
      1. (i) Nil
      2. (ii) 2
      3. (iii) 3
      4. (iv) 1
      5. (v) 1 Professional
2. (2)
   1. (a) 1572
   2. (b) The specified period: April 1988 to December 1988.

This hospital has great problems. At the moment they have 12 full-time doctors. These 12 doctors take care of the casualty department and the out-patient department on a 24 hour basis. The ten part-time doctors who are employed there will come in on a daily basis for four hours from eight o’clock till 12 o’clock in the morning. Out of these 12 doctors not even six are there to look after 1 500 out-patients. I think this is a sad state of affairs. This hospital needs more doctors. Especially the older people come there and have to wait for hours for treatment. Something has to be done about it. I think the hon the Minister has to look into this very seriously. Each doctor treats practically a 100 patients each day. I think that is a bit too much for one doctor.

The other important question is that we need an ICU unit and a neo-natal clinic. The neo-natal clinic is for infants. That hospital is lacking such a clinic and it is very important. It is needed urgently. We also need a trauma unit in the case of stabbings or accidents. There is no trauma unit in that hospital and the hospital is faced with great problems.

[Inaudible.]

I think we also need a trauma unit here in the house of Delegates. Especially the hon member for Montford can take care of that. The hon the Minister must give his serious attention to this.

Turning to the Chatsworth office of the hon the Minister, I want to make an appeal here that the staff at the hon the Minister’s department’s office need training in public relations. They have no manners whatsoever when dealing with elderly people. I brought this to the attention of the hon the Minister and he must now take serious note of the situation. A number of our people have to face the youngsters who are employed there as clerks but who talk to people in any manner they feel like and treat them in any manner they feel like. Even the investigating officers who go out to investigate, do not even get out of their cars. They sit in their cars and call the people to their cars. That is absolute rubbish! The time has now come for the hon the Minister to look into this.

The question of the Phoenix Hospital is, as the hon member for Havenside mentioned, also a burning issue. The people have been there in Phoenix for well over ten years, but they do not have the necessary service yet. One has to travel from Phoenix daily to the R K Khan Hospital for treatment. We do not want the hon the Minister to come here every year and tell us that it is still on the drawing board. I think in his next budget speech we want the positive answer that the plans for the hospital have got under way.

Mr Chairman, I must compliment the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in the respect that last year during Christmas time he went as far as using his own money to entertain the children at the Health and Care Home as well as at the Valley View Home of Safety and Detention. I think that is something that has not been done in the past. The children are very happy and I was very fortunate to be able to attend one of those functions. I am sure that it was very much appreciated.

The newly elected Minister of Local Government and Agriculture always keeps interfering with my constituency in Northdale. I think that he must not take a chance because he is in for trouble!

Coming to the Northdale hospital, the fee for the first visit is R2 and thereafter for the second visit, I am not sure whether the fee is R6 or R22. What I want to say is that if they do not have R2 for the first visit how can they afford R22 or R6—whatever it is—for the second visit? They might as well lie in bed and die at home if they cannot afford the fee. That is why previous speakers have spoken about day-care nurses. The hon members for Reservoir Hills and Bayside mentioned it. I think this is something that the hon the Minister should ask his staff to investigate.

Another matter that I have referred to constantly in this Chamber is the matter of the school feeding scheme. I know that owing to inflation a lot of children cannot afford a meal that they would normally have in order to do justice to their schoolwork. If a car has no fuel, it cannot move, and the same goes for children; if they have no food in their stomachs, how can one expect them to do justice to their work at school? These are matters I have not heard anyone discussing here and I call upon the hon the Minister to look into them.

As far as the registration of doctors is concerned, there are many doctors from overseas who are unemployed and are walking the streets because they cannot find a place to serve their internship. I understand that there was some regulation in 1985 which prohibits this. I wish to know if the hon the Minister can do something to get rid of that legislation to the effect that they are not allowed to write their examination and be employed as doctors.

I know of a few cases where people have deserved grants—old age pensions or disability grants—but when such people have died in the latter part of the month, such as the 20th or the 22th, then their grant at that time for that month is stopped; they do not get it. How are the children or spouses of such persons expected to survive when there is no more money for that month? I think that that month’s money is due to them. If the money stops after that then we do not mind.

I understand that R55 million was needed to achieve parity between the Whites and the Indians. I cannot understand that the Government is wasting millions of rands improving the economy of the surrounding states while they are unable to do anything for people here at home. They say that charity begins at home, so why not use some of that money to upgrade the pensions of our people?

The Indians living in Boksburg, Windmill Park and Mayfair have been threatened with the cutting off of their electricity and water. This is a health hazard. I want to know whether the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare has done something in this regard.

Put the lights on!

Never mind putting the lights on; water is more essential. [Interjections.] [Time expired]

May I start of by complimenting the hon the Minister on his budget speech on Health and Welfare? We know that the hon the Minister has visited the towns and cities of the Transvaal during the recess and I am sure by now he will know exactly what the needs of the community in the Transvaal are. I also want to thank him for informing us about health services during the year.

In spite of financial restraints, increases to pensions for the aged have been improved. However, listening to hon members we see that the pensions given to the old age pensioners are not even enough. I have an example of a pensioner who earns R200 and pays a rental of about R150, including water and electricity. By the time he gets his pension he has only got R50 left. However, when this pensioner takes on a part-time job, this pension is automatically withdrawn. I would like the hon the Minister to explain why these pensions are being withdrawn. Are pensioners allowed to work part-time or not? What other provision is there for these pensioners to help them meet their payments? I would like to say that social pensions should be equal for all race groups.

There is a need for more social workers in our Transvaal towns and cities. Social problems have become rife. A part-time sub-office is situated in Benoni and as hon members know Benoni is the third largest city in the Transvaal with a population of approximately 30 000 inhabitants. It is, however, felt that in the absence of any social work facilities in this area in the Transvaal, the hon the Minister should consider opening a full-time office.

A social worker visits Palmridge every alternative week on a Thursday. There the library is being used to interview clients and this is totally inadequate. I strongly recommend that arrangements should be made for alternative accommodation in Palmridge.

I am pleased that the hon the Minister has requested the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services to investigate the establishment of offices in the Transvaal. As I said, Actonville in Benoni is the third largest town in the Transvaal and there is an urgent need for a full-time office to also cater for the neighbouring towns like Springs, Nigel, Heidelberg, Delmas and others.

There is an urgent need for the subsidisation of new welfare resources in these areas. Specialised resource services will be rendered in order to meet the specific needs of the community. SANCA, the South African National Council for Alcohol and Drug Abuse, is available in Reigerpark, Boksburg. However, this is subsidised by the House of Representatives. There is a cost attached to this and due to the current financial situation it is considered a problem, which causes concern. I hope that the hon the Minister will do something—even if we in the House of Delegates would have to subsidise this so that we could have our community service there as well.

As far as mental health centres are concerned, there is a high degree of drug and alcohol abuse. This, coupled with the other pathological problems, often results in the need for psychological and psychiatric resources.

We need recreation and the subsidisation of créches. Due to the economic climate most parents are employed and the younger children are expected to independently fend for themselves. This is known to result in delinquency, truancy and drug abuse. Providing recreational centres and facilities could to a certain extent curb this growing problem. Furthermore, créches could assist most women who are seeking employment by ensuring that their children are safe.

As a preventative measure, health clinics should be subsidised to minister to the early problems of eye and ear deficiencies. People on the East Rand often go to Boksburg-Benoni Hospital or Coronation Hospital. This creates problems of finance, transportation and waiting long hours in queues.

Mr Chairman, I first want to dispose of some parochial matters before I touch on one or two other important subjects this morning.

Firstly, I would like to mention the question of the site for the centre for the aged at Shallcross. It was taken away from the community and as yet has not been replaced. I indicated this to the hon the Minister last year and I hope that the department has made some progress in this regard. The Shallcross Association for the Aged is seriously concerned about an alternative site. I hope that the hon the Minister’s department will liaise with another ministry or department which may be responsible for the allocation of sites to resolve this matter and to see to it that the Shallcross Association for the Aged is provided with an alternative site on which developments can take place.

The other matter concerns the Shallcross daycare centre. In response to my application some time last year the department in the care of the hon the Minister informed me that a day-care centre would be provided in Shallcross and that a site would be identified. I hope the hon the Minister will report progress and that the site at least has been identified by now.

This morning many hon members rightly pointed out to this House the many setbacks regarding health and social issues which afflicts our community. We note these things and we also note that nothing has been done about them. To go one step further in providing curative measures, by ploughing in millions of rands to provide institutions, is also not enough. What is important in a responsible community is to devise the kind of programmes and campaigns which are absolutely necessary, and which arrest or obviate the need for these institutions.

In this regard I want to discuss alcohol and drug addiction. I expected the hon member for Montford, who is the only medical doctor in this House, to have looked profoundly at some of the scourges which afflict our community. I was alarmed when the hon the Minister, estimating the cost in his report, mentioned that alcoholism and drug addiction are on the increase. There are of course other problems also. He mentioned that divorce is on the increase. These are problems which one must tackle at the root. What happens very often is that we only tackle the problem once it has revealed itself. I think this observation of the hon the Minister is a warning to the country as a whole.

I know South Africa has political and economic problems, but if it does not want to take care of its people, of its youth, and provide the kind of education, programmes and campaigns that are necessary to see to it that they are on a sound course, one can never have a sound nation. That is the most important thing. For far too long we have been scratching the surface of the problem. I think we have become too happy when we build a hospital, an institution for the aged, for psychiatric treatment, for alcoholic treatment or other things. What are we really doing? When are we going to decide on programmes really to cure our people of the problems to which they are subjected?

Lord Milner, just after the Second World War, said: “Alcohol has killed more people than the Second World War.” I think this helps to highlight the seriousness of the disease. I am aware that in the White community, apart from curative measures, preventative programmes are vigorously put into operation. There are education campaigns to make people aware of the consequences and disadvantages of alcoholism. Alcoholism has direct consequences where the consumer of alcohol becomes the victim. Then there are indirect consequences of alcoholism. These are numerous and multifarious. To enumerate a few, there are motor accidents, family break-ups, divorce, anti-social conduct, fighting, killing and murder.

The curative measures cost the taxpayer millions of rands, much of which can be saved and used for other purposes, such as developing this country of ours. What I would like to point out, and emphatically so, is that an enormous sum of money is spent on curative centres, institutions and treatment as well as in relation to preventative campaigns. South Africa would gain, from campaigns and programmes, what is gained in certain other countries, among which I wish to mention India and China. Organised bodies should become more involved in problems which, inter alia, include social problems such as alcoholism and drug addiction. Further discussion can take place at some of the congresses; religious bodies, for instance churches, temples and mosques; also educational bodies, teachers’ societies, teacher training institutions, universities, technikons and even high schools.

The hon member for Chatsworth Central pointed out that drug addiction and even alcoholism is becoming a more and more serious problem. The question is: What are we doing about it? What are the responsible people in our community doing about these things? I think that poses a big question to which the answers have to be found. The welfare bodies and agricultural associations and even cultural bodies should be included in the programmes. These programmes should be promoted with tremendous zeal. Unless this is done and given the prominence it deserves, the Indian community will suffer serious consequences.

In conclusion, I want to say again that any responsible community cannot afford to allow an attitude of indifference to prevail or to just have a mild attitude with regard to really keeping a community healthy. The means should be found of avoiding the destruction of our community. The hon member for Glenview earlier also made reference to the absolute need to give attention to eliminate and obviate the need to find means for curative purposes.

Drugs and drug addiction is another problem that has reached alarming dimensions, with grave consequences. In fact this is becoming a universal problem. Drug trafficking and the consumption of drugs are unlawful and receive the attention of the authorities. From a community point of view this is another area that should be focused on. Some or all of the submissions made with regard to alcoholism should be applied here equally. Campaigns and programmes to prevent drug consumption should be devised and enforced vigorously. I want to warn the authorities, both own and general affairs, in regard to educational, health and social matters, to give the preventative programmes the necessary consideration and to make the money available for such programmes that are imperative for the maintenance of a healthy nation.

I want to mention the question of divorce as well. If I may say so, divorce was unheard of in the Indian community. If anybody talked about divorce in the Indian community 10 years ago, it was considered to be a startling statement. Today one can pick up any newspaper and read about this issue. Divorce has tragic consequences for families, but for children in particular. I think this leads to cultural and religious deprivation in any community, so this is an important point. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, poverty is a world reality and one cannot escape the fact that it exists. We have always had the haves and the have-nots. The haves can care for themselves, but the have-nots always require assistance in various forms. As such, our pensioners are the people who need help and it is the obligation of society to see that these unfortunate ones are cared for. Since the State is responsible for the welfare of people in need, it is imperative that the basic requirements and bare necessities of such people are fulfilled. This is why we have the Department of Health Services and Welfare.

I think all hon members will agree with me that we should always strive towards improving the conditions of the poor. We know that pensions and grants payable to pensioners are inadequate, particularly if the rising inflation rate and the tax burden from which they are not exempted are taken into account. The additional increase of 1% on sales tax comes as a very heavy blow to these poor people.

The other Houses are crying out for extra payments to pensioners. I think this administration has to find more money for pensioners. If we have to accept everything that we are told—for instance, that the administration is involved in various litigations and that large sums of money are disbursed by way of costs—then it is difficult to understand why we cannot find money for our pensioners.

We have been here for almost five years. During this period we have succeeded in bringing about equality in the increase of pensions to all races. However, owing to the accumulated disparity on capital in the years before 1984, disparity still exists in the actual pension payments and this must be eliminated. It must be eliminated completely and quickly. It is no use saying that we need time to bring about parity in the capital sum of the grant. This should be done forthwith! Money can always be found for other purposes, and therefore money must be allocated to wipe out this disparity. We must show that we regard all pensioners, irrespective of colour or class, on an equal footing.

I am most dismayed and disappointed to learn that there have been many cases where grants were reduced or withdrawn. I cannot understand how some invalids could have been declared fit for work and could have had their grants withdrawn. In one particular instance, during a visit by the hon the Minister to Actonville, I introduced him to a patient whose grant was withdrawn after he had been declared fit for work. After the hon the Minister had seen him personally, the grant was reinstated. Matters of such a nature require serious attention.

We are also aware of old people who receive grants whilst possessing, occupying and owning the house in which they live. Many of these people are illiterate and lack funds to pay an attorney to draw up their will. To them the easiest way out is to transfer the property or house in which they live into the names of the children who look after them. As soon as this happens, their grants are withdrawn. I deem this a great anomaly, notwithstanding all the technicalities which appear in the Act.

In one particular case a widower transferred his house, the only asset which he had, into the name of his ageing and ailing daughter. She is his only companion and takes care of him. Both father and daughter are now without any support of any kind from any source. All efforts and appeals to have the widower’s grant reinstated have been in vain. It has been an exercise in futility. If a situation of this nature is not addressed urgently and seen in its proper perspective, I think that we are failing miserably in our duty towards our aged people.

In my particular constituency we have the Actonville Training Centre for handicapped children. Although this centre falls under the Department of Education and Culture, certain aspects of it are the responsibility of this department. I ask the hon the Minister to please pay attention to the paramedics, which are a dire necessity for those children. There are 28 inmates and all those children need the services of paramedics. We used the physiotherapist of a Black clinic near Actonville but that clinic has now moved away to Daveyton and we no longer have the services of a physiotherapist. We also need speech and occupational therapists.

This is what we require for these children whom we want to bring into society as full-fledged members of our community. They must not feel that they are being discarded because of their handicap. For that purpose we should be more mindful of their requirements.

It would be difficult to find academically qualified professional people for the services we require in this department because I understand that these people are required to complete certain forms showing their political affiliation and answering various questions. Because of this we are losing out on the services of people with professional know-how and expertise. We are not concerned with their political affiliation but with obtaining their services. For that purpose we should exploit and take advantage of the best form of service they can render for the good of our people.

With regard to a community health centre in Actonville I am very grateful to the hon the Minister for having assisted us. Things are now moving and the project is getting off the ground. The hon the Minister made a copy of the plans available to me and in my opinion the centre is now taking shape. I want to express my sincere thanks to the hon the Minister.

The hon the Minister is not an unreasonable person. I have had many dealings with him and when I go to him for help he is prepared to assist me. If he is going to continue following that trend I think we shall have a very good relationship and get a lot of work done. We need services for our people and we are here to serve them. It is time that we do everything that is required to bring about happiness for the unfortunate ones in our community.

Mr Chairman, firstly I want to compliment the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in presenting his detailed report. At the same time I want to extend a very warm welcome to Dr Millard who has now also joined the department of the hon the Minister.

I want to refer to a statement made by the hon member for Montford wherein he maintained that we have an unstable House. I want to assure the hon member that this House is very stable and will definitely do what it rightfully should do to enhance and restore the image of the Indian community as a whole.

The hon member for Allandale said that the hon the Minister makes promises and forgets to keep them. He highlighted this in Afrikaans by saying that “beloftes maak skuld”. I must differ with that hon member. In my experience the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare and his department have really excelled themselves, particularly in the Actonville area.

In 1982 when the hon the Leader of the House, Mr Seedat, was the chairman of the Actonville Management Committee he initiated the Actonville Health Centre. I believe that at the time the hon the Minister was also a member of the SA Indian Council, holding the portfolio of health services. I want to assure the House that this hon Minister went out of his way to put right what should have been done a long time ago.

I want to agree with the hon member for Actonville where he states that the hon the Minister is an approachable person in that respect. The fact that he is amenable is also illustrated in that when the call from Actonville was made, he did not hesitate at all but immediately made available R1 million in order to start the preparations for this community health centre. I want to thank the hon the Minister for this.

In his report the hon the Minister mentions the fact that 15,4% of the persons receiving pensions had to be removed from the list after it was discovered that they did not qualify. I want to say to the hon the Minister that he is now looking in the right direction. I trust that the money saved by removing those people who are not qualified from the pension list will be given to the people who need pensions.

I want to support the hon member for Central Rand where he mentioned the pensions paid and pensions withdrawn. An amount of R195 is paid. I want to cite the example of a lady with three children, one in matric and the other two in primary school. One must accept that R195 will definitely not suffice in the case of this lady. She had to supplement her income by taking up employment. Having done that, I believe that she did herself more harm than good because once this was made known to the hon the Minister’s department, the R195 was withdrawn and she was left worse off than before.

I believe that so much attention has been given by the hon the Minister’s department to the Natal area, that it is only right when he says that he must give attention to the Transvaal and the Cape. I want to say to him that, irrespective of the fact that the population residing in a particular region is smaller than in Natal, it is the duty of the hon the Minister and his department to pay attention to those regions too. Surely we need medical services etc in those areas as well.

The hon the Minister also said in his report and I quote:

Having accepted the fact that the poverty level of our community is extremely high, I believe the hon the Minister will use his office and his department in order to propagate this fact to the hon the Minister of Finance and say to him that our situation as far as poverty is concerned, is reaching proportions that will be uncontrollable and as such is sufficient motivation for the hon the Minister to get more money and to get on with the job to improve the lives of those who need pensions.

Mr Chairman, allow me firstly to place on record my appreciation for the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare for the initiative he has taken in opening the Lenasia Hospital. I think it is also correct and proper for me to say at this stage that it is not only the present hon Minister of Health Services and Welfare but also the former hon Minister of Health Services and Welfare—who is now the hon the Minister of the Budget—who initiated discussions in this field. So credit goes to him also.

As other hon members said, the hon the Minister has always been available when he has been called upon to look into certain matters, more so in Transvaal. I want to pose one question with regard to the Lenasia Hospital. In his budget speech the hon the Minister refers to it as the Lenasia South Hospital. I would like to know whether it is the Lenasia South Hospital or whether it is the Lenasia Hospital.

It is the Lenasia Hospital.

So, in actual fact, the hon the Minister’s budget speech is not correct. As we have heard the hon member for Laudium say earlier, that hospital is not fully operational. Although the hon the Minister and, I believe, his colleague the hon the Minister of the Budget, may have juggled around some funds to be made available for the opening of this hospital, I personally believe that the funds for this hospital should come from the central Treasury and funds should not be taken from our administration. If it is the responsibility of the provincial administration to run this hospital then central Government is responsible for putting aside a certain amount of money for the hospital. The sooner we can present a vigorously motivated case to central Treasury to obtain funds in order to get this hospital fully operational, the better it would be for the community, because the situation in that hospital is still unsatisfactory.

I have moved a notice of motion with regard to the appointment of members of the hospital board. I will discuss the matter at the meeting of the provincial committee because it is the provincial authorities that appoint the hospital board and I do not want to raise it under this issue. However, the hon the Minister must take note of that and inform the provincial authorities, particularly the Department of Health and Welfare, that there is some dissatisfaction with regard to the appointment of members to the hospital board. May I just remind the hon the Minister that we do not want this medical institution to be another one which will create jobs for pals. We must stop that at all cost. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to look into this matter and if such a situation exists an immediate stop must be put to it.

I want to talk about diseases and in particular the squatters in and around the Lenasia area. At the moment they number in the region of 15 000 to 18 000 people. That land, as hon members know, belongs to the House of Delegates and it is being squatted upon. The area is rife with disease. There is no running water and no sanitation. From a health point of view, we must not turn a blind eye to the squatters that are living there, simply because they are squatters and, more particularly, because they are Black squatters. I think since the land belongs to us we have a moral obligation to at least provide running water to those people. They are not there because of their own doing. They are there because of circumstances. If the hon the Minister or his Ministry can provide some kind of relief in the form of running water and sanitation services for those people, it will be a service to humanity.

On the subject of diseases, I am afraid that an epidemic might break out. It might get out of hand and we will not be able to contain it. In the late 16th and early 17th centuries it was impossible to curtail the yellow fever epidemic in America. The hon the Minister should take note of the current problems in the Lenasia area.

With regard to diseases, the national health authorities have been issuing advertisements and have embarked upon a public relations campaign with regard to the Aids syndrome. What is distressing is that we have not seen any of these notices appearing in publications circulated amongst the Indian community. Why is this so? Why have we not advertised in publications circulated amongst the Indian community? Aids is also prevalent in our community.

The hon member for Central Rand and the hon member Mr Razak referred to pensioners who go and work and lose their pensions. It is obvious from their comments and observations that they do not understand that pensioners are allowed to go and work, but if they earn in excess of a certain amount, which is stipulated, they do not qualify for pensions any longer.

I want to talk about the regional office we have in Lenasia. We had a meeting with the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare and the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council not so long ago at which this matter was discussed. I just want to emphasize the need for those office premises to be changed or for alternative premises to be found in Lenasia. Those offices are not adequate for the largest concentration of the Indian population.

I am pleased to note in the hon the Minister’s report that negotiations have recommenced the take-over of the Lenasia Clinic—negotiations, that is, with the Transvaal Administration. However there is something else I want to ask the hon the Minister. In his report he mentions people that have been appointed to the Welfare Board. Is there someone from the Transvaal on that Welfare Board? If not, why not? [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

No, Sir, I think I am being misunderstood by the hon the Minister. I am talking about social security, in regard to which the hon the Minister says:

[Interjections.] I think we need to have representation from the Transvaal, and this must not be overlooked.

Are you available?

Sir, I am not talking from a personal point of interest. The hon nominated member Mr Seedat has this habit of interjecting when I am speaking. Now, I am not criticising the hon the Minister for the sake of criticism or for the sake of his party-political affiliations or because he belongs to another political party. I am being objective, and I hope hon members take it in that spirit. When the hon members interject in my speeches in the manner they do, and if I respond in an unbecoming manner then they must bear the consequences. I am not criticising the hon the Minister or calling for his resignation. I am objectively trying to present a case as best I can. If the hon member Mr Seedat wants to say something I shall sit down and ask him to say something, and then I will respond to him pleasantly. However, that hon member has a habit of interjecting whenever I stand up to speak. Because there is no-one sitting next to him now he is doing it himself. Previously he used to whisper in other people’s ears, and he used to ask them to interject. [Interjections.] He must stand up and tell me what he wants to say, and I shall respond in the same fashion. I am not being critical. I have placed my appreciation of the hon the Minister on record, and I shall leave it at that.

Mr Chairman, the increase in old-age pensions from R167 to R200 per month looks impressive on paper. In reality there has been little or no improvement in the standard of living of the aged. The same can be said of all social pensioners. I say this because the increase has been wiped out by the cost of day-to-day basic commodities to keep body and soul together.

The days of free hospital services for the aged, blind and disabled are over. Most of them have to pay between R2 and R6 a visit and then they have to make a special trip to collect their medicine which makes it very difficult for many of them.

The hon the Minister points out that South Africa is not a welfare state and that all and sundry cannot rely on the State for financial support. While I agree with the hon the Minister that South Africa is not a welfare state, I must point out that we are not talking about all and sundry. This raises the question of whom we are talking about.

Today’s patients are people who were born in the 1920s or before that period. Most of these people were the offspring of people who were still in bondage. They are the offspring of the indentured labourers. These are people who went through the mill and when I say the mill, I mean that those people went through real hardship. Many had very little or no schooling at all. They are far from the city centres and if I take Natal as an example, Durban was the only city in the old days. I saw Tongaat grow before my own eyes. It was just a tin town in the 1950s. There were no banking institutions where people could deposit their money or building societies that could give them any advice. There were no family planning clinics and as a result of that they had large families.

No cinemas, no TV.

They had large families and they had to eke out a living for their families on their meagre earnings. These people are the victims of their circumstances; these are special cases. I feel that these are their twilight years and that everything should be done to make their lives comfortable.

If we talk about 10 years later, we are talking about a different generation, about people who have had far more opportunities; who could provide for themselves and who could receive advice. I believe that it is the duty of every man to provide for himself and for his family. I also believe that every man is entitled to the fruits of his labour and that when a person is young, he must work and provide for his old age. When they retire, they can retire in the security of their own home.

I would now like to come to Tongaat. The announcement made by the hon the Minister that a sub-office is to be established in Tongaat is most welcome. It is high time such a step was taken. Tongaat is known to have the third-largest Indian population in Natal. The late Mr Mohangi took up this matter and it is a pity that he is not around to see his representations come to fruition.

Hazelmere House is a property neighbouring one of mine. My home is situated next to Hazelmere House and as a matter of fact I was a prospective buyer. I made an offer of R300 000 to buy Hazelmere House and the estate agent told me that he had received an offer of R350 000. I then matched the R350 000, but when I heard that the House of Delegates wanted to buy the house, I approached the hon the Minister of the Budget. I said that I had no objections, because it was for the welfare of the community. Instead I bought a piece of farming ground. I am happy that I have good neighbours. I am happy with my farm. I am also happy with the neighbours around me.

I would also like to mention that I, as well as the hon member for Stanger, have made representations for an office in Stanger. I must thank the hon the Minister that these have been fruitful and that the office has been established.

Regarding Verulam, the hon the Minister says the following, and I quote:

I would just like to make mention of the fact that representations have been made on various occasions to complain about the conditions at the office. I have here a letter from the Verulam Civic Association. The letter is dated 19 March 1986. I would just like to read for the record the contents of this letter. I quote:

1. 1) Security personnel be employed as a matter of urgency to guarantee the disabled safe passage from your offices.
2. 2) Enlist the assistance of the South African Police to be stationed throughout the period when pensions are being paid.

I also have here with me a memorandum submitted by a Mrs M C Hoosen. The first representation was made at a meeting held on 20 September 1982 for an appointment to see Dr Gregerson at Commercial City, Department of Health Services and Welfare, regarding the offer of premises for a district surgeon and neuro-clinic at Verulam. Subsequent meetings took place on 8 November 1982, 7 May 1985, 8 May 1985, 10 September 1985, 24 September 1985, 25 September 1985, 2 October 1985, 5 November 1985, 12 November 1985, 20 November 1985, 10 December 1985 and 7 January 1986. The person concerned entered into negotiations and plans were drawn up to erect a building for the House of Delegates. However, to date nothing has been done. I do not know whether the hon the Minister in his reply could enlighten me regarding what he has done thus far.

There is one other issue I would like to raise, namely water from the Hazelmere Dam. People living in the immediate vicinity of Hazelmere cannot get water. Representations have been made on several occasions to the Department of Water Affairs, but nothing has been done. The World Health Organisation has made a commitment that by the year 2000 the piped water … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is my pleasure to speak on the Vote of my colleague, the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. I wish to compliment him on his working within the parameters of what has been allocated to him in my budget. Having regard for the scarcity of the funds available to the hon the Minister, I believe he and his administration have programmed themselves for the 1989-90 financial year to the best of their ability. They need to be complimented that they can render the services which are required in our community. However, I do want to say that to ask for Utopia creates a very difficult situation with regard to health services and welfare. Everything possible is being done to meet the immediate needs of our community.

In the debate certain aspects were raised by the various hon members. I will skirt over them because some of the issues raised refer to my budget. The hon member for Montford spoke of the take-over of hospitals. Certainly it is not and never was the intention in the past of the Ministers’ Council, as a matter of policy or expediency, that we should be taking over hospitals such as the R K Khan Hospital or the Northdale Hospital in Pietermaritzburg or any large hospitals throughout the country. What we did realise was that in certain settled areas of our community throughout the RSA—in particular Lenasia, Phoenix, etc—we have programmed hospitals for these areas and Phoenix was actually the responsibility of the Natal Provincial Administration. However, they neglected our requirements over the years and we had to then push the Natal Provincial Administration. We have now been given a site in Phoenix which was earmarked for a hospital. It is now in the ownership of the House of Delegates and soon, with Treasury approval, we should have a hospital in Phoenix.

We are always mindful of the necessity of basic services for our community. Therefore we are very eager to provide clinic services in these areas as services additional to a hospital. Our department has addressed itself to this and we will provide what is reasonable in as short a time as possible.

The hon member for Reservoir Hills talked about a welfare state. Over the years Britain has become a national health scheme country. However, very recently the government created a special committee to investigate the continuance of the national health and social welfare schemes, because they now also want to go for privatisation of those services. This is possible simply because by law a citizen of the United Kingdom contributes to a scheme. In this country we do not. Therefore, we must divorce the perception that a state has to provide these services. It cannot provide the services if provision is not made in the budget for such services.

There is definitely some merit in what hon members had to say about the attitude and behavioural patterns of the staff in the House of Delegates. This is particularly true in relation to cultural services and other services in our department. I, when I was Minister, and my successors in that office, repeatedly spoke to the directors of the department with regard to the staff, urging that their relationship with the general public should be one of assistance and diplomacy where such action was demanded. However, the factor of paramount importance is to serve our people to the best of our ability and to give assistance where needed.

We have programmes of sheltered work for our people. In fact, we assist the Natal Indian Cripple Care Association in their programme of sheltered work by subsidising them. If we do not in effect provide these sheltered workshops, at least we are doing a service by subsidising these sheltered workshops. My hon colleague has sheltered workshops for our community on his programme.

I am glad that the hon member for Havenside has been advised that Hazelmere is in operation. The rehabilitation centre in Newlands West is nearing completion. It should be in operation very soon. Thanks to allocations by my Ministry, day-care centres have also been addressed and in certain places they have been provided, for instance in Verulam. The initiative has to come from the local people or the municipality, local authority or welfare organisations in that area. They must all show initiative in the requirements of their community. In Verulam the House of Delegates has subsidised a very large day-care centre and a complex which serves the aged people of that community.

I want to refer briefly to Lenasia Hospital. It has always been the responsibility of the Transvaal Provincial Administration to provide services in that hospital. However, the Transvaal Provincial Administration advised the House of Delegates that they did not have the necessary funds. Because they did not have the necessary funds, they did not commission the hospital. We in the House of Delegates felt absolutely convinced that there was a need for this service. During the past financial year we allocated monies from our own funds so that the hospital could function. This year, if one has a close look at the budget figures, one will see that I have provided some R3 million for the operation of this hospital. Even this is insufficient. We are definitely going to take up this matter with the hon the Minister of Finance to see how we can offer a better service if monies are provided. I want to say as a matter of policy that we are not in any way going to be a party to the fragmentation of health services.

Hear, hear!

We will accept our responsibilities, and we will see to it that our hospitals and clinics will be our agents. As such, our hospital services will be on a regional basis. They will serve all population groups in that area. This is a stated policy of the Ministers’ Council. We will continue to offer this service to our community, and this will be done without prejudice to anyone.

Mr Chairman, I too would like to join my hon colleagues in congratulating Dr Maharaj on his appointment as Director: Health Services and Welfare.

Health Services!

Oh, I beg your pardon. He was appointed Director: Health Services, and not Director: Health Services and Welfare.

I also want to touch on a few matters that were raised by some hon members. I want to concur with the hon member for Glenview when he commented on the hon the Minister’s personal indulgence when handling matters that are taken up with him. I also know from experience that the hon the Minister personally signs his letters. He follows up every issue until finality is reached.

However, while commending him on that, I also want to agree with the hon member for Havenside when he said that hon Ministers should consider trimming their speeches. This presentation is 42 pages in length. Perhaps I should draw an analogy of a candidate standing for an election who presents his election manifesto.

Voters would like to see an active and helpful MP rather than a person presenting them with a lengthy manifesto during the election. Similarly we would like hon Ministers to take the cue from this. They should rather be active and helpful and when it is time for the budget speeches to be made, present us with a synopsis of their achievements and proposals.

[Inaudible.]

I want to endorse the call by the hon member for Chatsworth Central as well as other hon members for the establishment of the hospital in Phoenix. This is long overdue. I believe the creation and establishment of this hospital will help ease the congestion at the R K Khan Hospital, as well as other health institutions.

I want to echo the call made by the hon member for Newholme about feeding schemes in schools. Whilst making this call I also want to state that this must not interfere with the provision of free books to our children. If this is going to be a costly exercise the hon the Minister could perhaps consider providing tea and light meals to destitute children. This problem has assumed serious proportions and it needs to be addressed urgently. Perhaps I may venture to suggest that there be a joint venture by the various hon Ministers to carry out a survey of the problems prevalent in schools and that this matter be addressed urgently.

I also want to make the appeal that when authorities are considering applications for housing from recipients of State pensions and grants, this revenue should not be treated as income, because often the pension is of a temporary nature or is subsequently withdrawn for some reason or another, thus placing such persons in a difficult position. Perhaps these persons could be afforded special consideration.

Another burning issue touched on by the hon member for Lenasia Central is that of squatters. Here, too, I endorse his call and I would like to appeal to the hon the Minister to approach this matter sympathetically and humanely. Perhaps a crash programme of housing could be embarked upon by the relevant departments to help rehouse these destitute persons who are human beings and bona fide citizens of South Africa.

The hon the Minister makes a boast which is more a grovelling apology and a justification for the disparate pension pay-outs to the various race groups than an embarrassing admission that the colour bar is still the main criterion for welfare benefits. He admits that the gap has not been narrowed but goes on to add insult to the injury by pointing out that the percentage appropriated for Indians has increased since the inception of the present system of government.

The increase is no special favour to the Indians only. Is the hon the Minister aware of the fact that pension benefits for the other race groups went up correspondingly? The fact remains that the pension allocations to people of colour are still underfunded and reprehensible. He said that the increase for Indians was 94,2% and for Whites 51,2%. Elementary arithmetic would confirm that the gap, in fact, is getting wider.

The hon the Minister claims that it is due to constant pressure from his department that the community has benefited. I would like to ask the hon the Minister whether he holds this House in contempt. Does he overlook the sustained campaign by hon members of this House to redress the wrongs of the past and map out a new course for the less privileged members of our community?

The further absurd assertion that the hon the Minister made, namely that South Africa is not a social state and that all and sundry do not rely on the State for financial support, is also ludicrous. What he perhaps meant was that South Africa is no longer going to be a social state. In the past it was mainly the Whites who benefited from the largesse of the apartheid social welfare philosophy.

The hon the Minister is full of contradictions as well. He says the existing means test is unacceptable and that officials sit in on a joint committee. What we would like to know is why this racist system of a means test is not stopped.

I support the submission of the hon member for Cavendish in respect of alcoholics. In doing so, I would like to compliment the hon the Minister for at last ensuring the completion of the rehabilitation centre. What a pity, however, that it can only accommodate 100 persons. Surely the demand in the community is far greater.

The hon the Minister signalled that he was ready to nail the myth that his department does not care about the sick. We have constantly argued that it was time that he declared his intentions about the sick in this country. I would like to suggest that the extra tax levied almost every year on alcohol be channelled to the prevention and treatment of those afflicted with a disability.

While the hon the Minister may have positive things to say about preventive medicine and health care at primary level, I want to tell him that this sector too is still grossly underfunded. It needs a massive injection of funds.

As far as the increase in the number of patients in psychiatric care is concerned, I think that the figure is alarming to say the least. This suggests that there is definitely something wrong. One would have imagined that the advances in the treatment of the mentally ill would have ensured the quick return of patients to the community.

The problem is that the evolution of health care has not kept up with the massive cutbacks.

What we would like to know is just who these patients are. I would imagine that the majority of the persons being counselled are those who are unhappy and for whom life has become unbearable. Eventually they will be healed and returned to their community. However, they face a lifetime of always needing some kind of treatment and supervision to protect them against the worst effects of the illness.

What we therefore have is a system of community dumping because when people come out of hospital they find that their housing situation is insecure, they have financial problems, they have no job opportunities and in many ways no systematic provision to help them survive in the community. More often than not, they end up behind bars.

Mr Chairman, I read the report presented by the hon the Minister with much interest. He has catered for a large number of organisations in the community. I will confine myself to the situation concerning old age homes, particularly in Merebank.

Some time back land was identified and earmarked for an old age home in Merebank. Statistics showed, however, that we did not have enough participants and the matter was therefore shelved. I do not have the latest statistics concerning the desirability of an old age home in Merebank but I do know that there is an old age club in Merebank which operates on a decentralised basis. I believe that at some time in the future an old age home will be necessary.

Traditions die hard and we must appreciate the fact that some of our youngsters are still caring for their elderly parents, in spite of the changing lifestyle pattern of our youngsters today. The sentiment of goodwill has not died.

I want to urge the hon the Minister to look into the matter of providing an old age home in Merebank. However, I want to be realistic at the same time. It will take some time to plan this old age home, but what we require immediately are service centres. A service centre can be a starting point towards building an old age home in the years to come.

I must say that I appreciate the efforts made to bring about increases in pension and the emphasis on trying to close the gap. However, I must mention that the meagre sum of R200 is not sufficient for a pensioner. Some of the people in our community get a supplement for their household expenses, which mainly means food. These elderly people need some sort of recreation, some place where they can get entertainment.

I want to cite Merebank as a very good example where self-help schemes are concerned. The clubs there are so well-organised that the few people who take care of the welfare of the elderly people take them on excursions and tours and take them out to dinners, concerts, etc. A service centre, in the form of a hall, could be of tremendous assistance to facilitate matters. It would be a place to gather and relax. They could even get voluntary medical services and social workers could visit the people there. It will be of tremendous advantage to have these service centres. The building of service centres should be encouraged as a starting point before we concentrate on old age homes.

I am afraid to say that the hon the Minister is very lucky that he got away with this because the demand for old age homes is not that excessive. In real terms, if we have to provide for the thousands of pensioners it will be a costly affair, but I think we are getting there. We should not neglect our old people. We should make their last few years happy ones. I am not asking too much. I am now asking for service centres, throughout the country, of whatever size is needed to provide for the welfare of our elderly people.

One more matter I would like to ask the hon the Minister to look into, is the fact that when an elderly person transfers his house to his offspring his grant is automatically stopped because of the valuation of that property. However, there are circumstances where people have no food to eat in spite of that property being transferred. This matter is taken into consideration as a technicality while the people are starving. There might be certain reasons why the property had been transferred to the offspring. The circumstances might have demanded that it be done. However, these people are then deprived of the little bit of income which they are dependent on. I urge the hon the Minister’s social workers to investigate these cases and to evaluate them on merit. Rather than being too technical, they should try to be humanitarian in order to solve that problem.

Mr Chairman, I want to be brief. In this particular debate some references have been made to the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare and some criticism has been levelled at him. I believe that, with the renewed effort taking place on this side of the House and the appointment of my leader as the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, when he gets into the swing of things we would be able to right many of the wrongs that might have happened in the past. Having said that, I was a little disappointed this morning when I believed it would have been perfectly in order for congratulations to have been extended to my leader on his appointment as Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. We on this side of the House are very happy that he will be the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council because he is the leader of this party. However something rather unconventional has happened in this House, in that the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition has seen fit to give notice of a motion in which he expresses disappointment and dissatisfaction at the appointment as Chairman of the Ministers’ Council of my leader, the hon member for Glenview.

It is convention.

Mr Chairman, there is no convention involved. I want to say quite categorically that it shows a very weak form of leadership. I say this with respect to my friend, with whom I have empathy—he was, after all, a Chief Whip. This type of nonsense and character assassination even before my leader has assumed office is grossly unfair. I also want to say that if his Whips on the other side wish to discuss this, I shall be prepared to discuss it. I am prepared to put it on the Order Paper so that we can debate it across the floor of this House, and demonstrate to this House that the leader of my party indeed enjoys the majority support in this House.

I shall take you up on that.

Yes, the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition is welcome.

Not only in this House.

Even outside this House. I want to make this very clear. It is very unfortunate, and I want to make an appeal to hon members as well as the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. This type of motion emanates from the era of the previous hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. We must come back to reality and start debating issues in this House.

Talking about issues, I want to appeal to the Ministers’ Council that when it comes to the acquisition, hiring and so on of premises for services, what we need to do is ensure that we get premises at the best price obtainable—at market-related rentals. Just because we sit here with almost a billion-rand budget we just go around acquiring premises at highly exorbitant rentals. This must stop. I know who was responsible for that type of situation, and I am not casting any aspersions on the current hon Ministers, but I want to say that I would like to see co-ordination between the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare and the Minister in charge of the acquisition and hiring of services, so that premises are obtained at a reasonable rental. Prior to the entering into of any agreements in the hiring of premises for welfare services, the department ought to carry out a proper investigation, get hold of estate agents in the particular area, get hold of the valuers and appraisers in that area, and establish what is market-related for that specific area. It is absurd to think that if one pays R50 per square metre in the heart of Johannesburg, R25 per square metre in Tongaat is reasonable; the market-related rental in Tongaat might be much lower than R25. I think that moneys saved that way can be beneficial to the very people that we need to serve.

In addition, criticism has been levelled by hon members opposite at the hon the Minister on account of his speech. I should like to say that when they attack the hon the Minister, they forget that the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare is a Minister who had the full support of their caucus. They appointed him; they had confidence in him. If they had no confidence, why did they appoint him in the first place? I assume that they had absolute confidence in him when they appointed him, and to castigate and criticise him unfairly today is, I think tantamount to criticism of themselves, if they believe what they say is correct.

Do we not all make mistakes?

Mr Chairman, I am sure they all make mistakes, but what is unfortunate is that they keep compounding their mistakes. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I would like to commend the hon the Minister on this excellent, well-presented, well-prepared and by and large factual report. It is pleasing to read a report like this. Under the present monetary constraints the hon the Minister has managed to budget very carefully.

I am indeed greatly surprised and amazed at the behaviour of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition of this House. That hon member, having been until recently Chief Whip of the ruling party in this House, was in a position to rectify whatever was wrong in that department. I would like to know what the hon member has been doing for the last four years.

You did not highlight it at all!

I gave the hon the Minister the figures last year. Is that unusual? The hon member’s double standards in this House surprise me. I will say that any hon member of the House who lacks honour will do that here. He attacks the hon the Minister for not eradicating the existing means test. My question is whether parity in the means test suddenly sprang up out of the blue like a mushroom. Was it not in existence in 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987 and 1988? What was that hon member doing during all that time?

Look at my speeches!

In a public debate on television or wherever, I will prove that he is wrong and that he is biased today.

I will take you on anyway!

He is full of envy and jealousy. He rues the demise of his party. Let him cry over that. He was enriched for it. Look at the hon members over there. He has got a party of five members. He ought to be ashamed of that.

We vote in freedom!

He is a leader who cannot control his members. Yet he has the audacity to get up in Parliament and direct unreasonable accusations against a very good report. I think the fault lies in the fact that the hon member’s sense of comprehension is lacking. He cannot comprehend what is good. That is the problem. The hon member’s incapacity to comprehend a first-class report is the cause of his unnecessary biased accusations against the hon the Minister. He accuses the hon the Minister of declaring that South Africa …

Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon member if he would agree that recently when he sat here, he castigated the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare for not making any provision for feeding schemes in his budget speech. I made that observation today when the hon the Minister had not provided for that here. What does the hon member have to say about that?

Here again there is proof that the hon member’s capacity to comprehend is lacking by far. I never castigated the hon the Minister and I will prove that I offered a suggestion. I urged the hon the Minister to consider introducing a feeding scheme for underprivileged children.

I will prove it to you!

Order! Will the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition refrain from making interjections.

Today I am not talking about feeding schemes. I am talking about the accusations relating to the social state. The hon the Minister clearly stated:

That is parity, Sir. He also said:

The hon the Minister did not say that. It emanates from the committee’s investigation. It stated that South Africa is not a social state and that all and sundry cannot rely on the State for financial support. I agree with that. If any hon member in this House disagrees that South Africa is a social state, these are the requirements for a social state. This country is a capitalist state, and if an hon member expects the hon the Minister to denounce that position and castigates him for not doing so, there is something wrong with him. The hon member quoted that phrase out of context. He took it as meaning that South Africa is not a social state. He only quoted that and nothing else. He did not say how the hon the Minister arrived at that little phrase. He took that one phrase out of context and distorted it and saw fit to quote, because he had nothing else to say. His limitations are such that he can only quote out of context.

He also accused the hon the Minister of not eradicating the means test. The hon the Minister said, and I quote:

What more does any reasonable human being expect from a fellow human being? The hon the Minister is not a robot. He has taken the appropriate steps here to eradicate this disparity in the means test. Therefore I say that the hon member is lacking in his capacity to comprehend. It is as clear as daylight. The hon the Minister’s officials are represented on a committee which is investigating the eradication of … [Time expired.]

Business suspended at 12h32 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr Chairman, I also want to pay my compliments to the hon the Minister for presenting his budget address in which he has also highlighted the progress this new department has made in the last three to four years. I think hon members of this House must be mindful of the fact that this portfolio is not an easy one to administer. As in the case of the portfolio of housing, it is also one which is demanding and people need progress in these fields because it affects their daily lives.

Today I want to touch on the aspect of the committee the hon the Minister appointed and of which I am the chairman. We are very grateful for the appointment of that committee, because the hon the Minister took into account that there was a very pressing need to address the problems that have been highlighted in this House from year to year.

Along with the other two commissioners, Dr B T Naidoo and the hon member for Reservoir Hills, this afternoon at one o’clock I presented the interim report to the hon the Minister. The reason for presenting such an interim report was that there was a need to tell the hon the Minister during this debate that there are certain issues in regard to which this community of ours and the House of Delegates cannot wait any longer. These issues are to eradicate the means test and to bring about parity in pensions and grants to pensioners and beneficiaries.

The area to be covered is vast and the problems are many and of long standing. The committee was to investigate all relevant matters and in the meantime submits this report on the basis that urgent attention will be given to these issues which we recommended and which are possible to resolve without delay.

We have highlighted the question of the discriminatory aspects in the means tests applied to the Whites, Indians and Coloureds and the differences in pensions and grants. We have stated in the report that if the means test applicable to the Indian community is resolved the hon the Minister will need roughly R5 million to allow for more pensioners and beneficiaries to receive grants and pensions. We believe it is within the means of the hon the Minister of Finance to allow our hon Minister to pay that amount to the beneficiaries, in which case approximately 2 300 people, including pensioners and beneficiaries, will benefit. As a result of the discriminatory means test, these people are unable to receive any grants because they are above a certain level described in the means test which discriminates against the Indian community. We believe it is within the power of this Government to change this. The hon the Minister of the Budget is sitting next to me, and I believe that by looking at his budget, he would be able to help the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare with regard to that matter, now and in the future. Of course, to create parity and bring our pensions and grants in line with White standards, we need R50 million. I believe this is a matter which must be addressed by the Ministers’ Council.

In this report, we have highlighted certain aspects because we are meeting the institutions and organisations who have problems at grassroots level. We believe that by the end of the exercise we would be able to advise the hon the Minister and his department of the shortcomings in providing adequate health and welfare services in South Africa.

There are problems with the maintenance grants as well as with the pensions and allowances paid. There are also problems in regard to single care grants. The limitations which impede the Indian community are of concern because of the discriminatory means test. In this regard, one particular aspect is that the asset limitations applicable to Indians and Coloureds are fixed at R28 000 and R32 000, respectively, whilst the amount for Whites is at the higher level of R42 000. Because of this limitation, nearly 500 aged persons have been disqualified. From R28 000 to R42 000 is a difference of R14 000, and we believe that in view of the cost of food and the cost of other items that one needs to keep oneself socially fit and healthy, this kind of limitation must be eradicated. We have therefore made this point very clear in this report.

Secondly, the donation of assets, which has been mentioned by many hon members, is an aspect which we believe creates hardship. Particularly in the case of the Indian community, when a donation of property is made no actual amount changes hands. This is an aspect of the lifestyle of the Indian community, unlike others in the community. I do not say that they do not make donations to their children, but they have money exchanged from one to the other. What we have said to the hon the Minister is that any person who donates assets to the value of R28 000 or over is disqualified from receiving State assistance for a period of five years from the date of donation. What he must do is fix an amount which does not disqualify in the case of donations.

I now want to turn to the recommendations that we have made in our conclusions in this report, which should answer the many issues raised in this House. I am very grateful that the hon the Minister appointed this committee. We are now in the process of concluding our investigations in respect of the aged, and we shall be dealing with cripples, mental health and other categories of disability. We have said here that:

A type of scheme should be worked out. Our recommendations are the following:

In this respect we believe that even in view of the South African Constitution of 1983, the hon the Minister may—the legal interpretation is being studied at the present moment—have the right to do this, because it is stated that if a Minister wants to pay his own amount within his own budget through the Minister of the Budget, this can be done, but at the same time they say that the means test and norms are set by general affairs. I believe that there is a contradiction in this regard, and we believe there is a way that the hon the Minister in this House can possibly get around to resolving some of the issues. I quote further from the recommendations:

At present anything above R4 900, and the limitation of income after R28 000, disqualifies one. The report goes on to say:

The Health Matters Advisory Committee’s Subcommittee on Psychiatry has recommended that:

At present this does not happen.

In conclusion we wish to advise the hon the Minister, who appointed this committee, that because of the problems and the hardship the aged, the disabled and the poor in the community are faced with, he should take heed of our recommendations and approach the Ministers’ Council and the Cabinet and other bodies to address this problem. The field is large and some of the problems are great. Much remains to be done. This interim report deals with only one specific issue, about which the committee believes immediate action can be taken to urgently bring needed relief to the persons who are in many cases desperate.

Various other needs are also being addressed by the committee in consultation with welfare organisations directly involved in voluntary work and further reports will be submitted from time to time. I am very heartened to report that the institutions and organisations that are involved with the care and welfare of our people are coming to meet the committee, which is a good sign. Co-operation is necessary to address this problem which has been debated in this House for far too long. We as a committee stress, for the attention of the hon the Minister in this House, that some of these issues cannot be debated over and over again; they have to be addressed in order to find solutions. The poor communities will become poorer, and if we have to pay the same for food and bread and transport and other commodities, we believe we owe it to them to assist them. Therefore we have to find the money to resolve the problems which we are faced with in this House and the communities of the other House.

Mr Chairman, at the outset I want to express my appreciation to all hon members who have contributed to the debate. I think some very healthy and constructive proposals were brought forward. As in the past, I heed any proposals that are raised as far as my administration is concerned. It is a fact that the administration is a vast one and only when one is directly involved with it will one appreciate what this in fact entails.

One of the major problems which most of the hon members have mentioned regards the staffing of the department. I indicated this in my report frankly and honestly, because I do not believe I should hide anything from my colleagues. The moratorium set by the Commission for Administration has created tremendous hardship and problems in our administration. However, despite all this, every effort is being made to ensure that we can provide a service to our community. We certainly hope that the various institutions we have are just about ready to go into action. If staff is commissioned, we will make sure that we are able to provide much-needed health and welfare services to our community.

What I do want to emphasise are the many projects we have listed. Not many hon members have highlighted this, but I think this department has made tremendous progress. While there has been tremendous progress, I do not want to regard this as any fantastic achievement, because I believe that what my department has in fact done was an attempt to catch up on the backlog that the Indian community has suffered for so many years. Should we have sufficient funds—this is where the problem lies—we will certainly be able to ensure that we can deal with many of the issues raised by hon members here this afternoon.

Important aspects have been the question of facilities, the question of the means test and the increase of and parity in pensions. I will deal with that later when I respond to the hon member for Red Hill.

I want to begin by responding to as many hon members as possible, starting with the hon member for Bayview. He mentioned that more fieldwork was needed and he also said that we should concentrate more on community work. He also mentioned an issue which is of great concern to him and to us as well, namely whether psychiatric nurses get a recruitment allowance. The answer is unfortunately no. They are not attached to a State psychiatric hospital. However, representations are being made, through the Nursing Council, to remedy the situation. Neuro-clinics, which he also mentioned, are regarded as constituting a community-orientated service and therefore a recruitment allowance is not considered. The House of Representatives has the Lentegeur Hospital and the House of Assembly has hospitals like, I think, Tara and Weskoppies, so their nurses do qualify. I want to give the hon member the assurance that we will certainly pursue this until we are successful.

The hon member also mentioned the question of preventative work. The departmental policy is to shift the emphasis from curative work to preventative and development work. The appointment of school social workers as a pilot project is imminent. Regional offices have begun to integrate community work into social work practice.

A few other issues to do with day-care centres were raised by the hon member for Bayview. There are two categories catering for the working mother, namely crèches for children of three months to six years and after-school care centres for school-going children. Since private organisations provide for both categories, the department tends to encourage the private sector to become involved. The Irene Benevolent Home in Chatsworth, which is well known to all of us, is in the process of registering a crèche with this department. No other crèches have as yet been registered.

As far as rehabilitation centres are concerned, rehabilitation services, like preventative services, are also a priority. These centres have been identified in Pietermaritzburg, Stanger, Phoenix and other places and are at an advanced stage of planning.

The hon member for Montford began by wanting to know whether he needs to present bouquets or garlands, but I am a very practical man, and I do not need garlands or bouquets. I say exactly how I feel about issues and I welcome hon members who would like to criticise constructively. I want to extend my appreciation to the hon member for Montford for his constructive criticism and the mention he made of issues which he believed we should take heed of. I in fact requested the hon member to give me a copy of his speech so that we can go through it and see how best we can eliminate the problems.

There has been a question regarding disability grants and the donation of property. This will all be included in the Dookie Report. Also as regards the question of the hospitals and the study group, I refer to the Dookie Report, which will probably cover most points raised by the hon member for Montford. Disability grants are determined at will. I think the hon member will appreciate that I have sent a circular to all hon members about a month ago to give them some indication of how this really operates in practice. I think that I have said this last time, but it is well worth repeating: One cannot willy-nilly issue disability grants for every pain and ache. People write to us and as far as I am concerned, it is not my function to usurp the authority of the professional men. We have a team of doctors who look at this and I am really guided by them. We do have queries from time to time, but I think that hon members will concede that in each and every case of a query I have produced a reply. I believe this has been acceptable to most people.

In many cases they decide to appeal against the decision that was taken. There is a board that investigates it and they certainly look into the matter. However, I think the hon member for Montford, as a medical practitioner, will appreciate that if one considers the different doctors who examine a patient, one will probably end up with three different reports. We then expect the professional men to guide us. We consider the application as a whole. We recognise the social aspect as far as the family is concerned, which is taken into consideration. Most of the issues with regard to a disability grant are very much amplified in detail to assist hon members here in Parliament, because I know that most of them do have advice offices and they get requests from time to time. Obviously when they have a query, they write to my office. We try and respond. I am not saying we have been 100% successful in every case that has been taken up, but I think we were able to give our colleagues an adequate reply by telling them exactly why an application has not been successful.

I now reply to the hon member for Reservoir Hills, who is not here this afternoon. He mentioned the points raised with regard to home visiting by nurses, the question of a proper programme for welfare services, a welfare state and parity in pensions. He serves in a particular committee, so he knows exactly what has been happening. He spoke of the rehabilitation centre and why it had been limited to 100 only. However, I think one must appreciate that these facilities are prepared by a team of specialists and I cannot interfere as far as that is concerned. As far as sheltered employment is concerned, while we may not directly provide sheltered employment, we in fact subsidise institutions. So that has been taken care of. With regard to the question of the special schools, my report clearly indicates that it is a situation that gives rise to concern, where 12,5% of the population will eventually become victims in that particular case.

With regard to the establishment of offices, the hon member made mention of the fact that he was concerned that we were opening far too many offices. However, this is not true at all. I believe, and I had a little talk with my colleague, the hon member for Umzinto, that we have to have regional and sub-offices wherever the need arises. We will not stop that programme because I believe my department is certainly doing an excellent job of work in providing a service. We believe that we should bring our services to the community. It has not been going all that well because of a lack of funds, but I think it is necessary to establish regional and sub-offices in order to provide the service that we boast so much about.

The hon member also mentioned a new welfare policy with regard to a welfare state. I want to inform the hon member, for record purposes, that the Cabinet accepted a new welfare policy which clearly stated that the State opposed the idea of a welfare state. As far as a rehabilitation centre in Newlands West is concerned, should more resources of this nature be required, they will be developed in the many areas where they are required. I think one must be practical as far as institutions of this nature are concerned. It is a very costly exercise to establish institutions of this nature. The discussions on rehabilitation centres have been going on for a long time, as hon members who served in the SA Indian Council will recall. It has now become a reality. All we require now is for the administration to give us the green light to employ our staff and we can then go into business.

Mention was made of the provision of a hospital in Newlands West. It is a fact that the hon member for Reservoir Hills discussed the question of a hospital at Fosa settlement, with which the hon member is very much involved with. He did say that he would make a piece of land available, but to establish a hospital at a cost of R1 million, is just not possible. It is not possible simply to put up a hospital. One still has to staff and equip it. However, the provision of a hospital at Newlands West will not be necessary when the Phoenix Hospital comes into operation. Newlands West will be part of the area.

Most hon members have referred to the provision of peripheral clinics. My reference to the Browne Commission in the budget speech clearly reflects my view that the provision of these clinics at pivotal points is primary in primary health care. My department will endeavour to proceed in this direction.

I want to thank the hon member for Glenview for the confidence that he has placed in me. He did make certain proposals, one of which was to use a marketing officer rather than a PRO. I think it is an excellent idea. It is a fact that I, too, have a PRO. I believe that we could probably use our public relations officer much more fruitfully and to the advantage of the community. We will certainly look at how one can utilise the service of our PRO to the best advantage. The hon member also spoke about sheltered employment, but I have already responded to one other hon member who had referred to that a little earlier.

The hon member for Glenview also made mention of certain complaints regarding staff at the Chatsworth office. I am aware of this. He mentioned the question of communication between clients and staff. We will certainly look at how we can accommodate people who cannot speak more than one language. We want to make it as convenient as possible. In the case where a person does not speak the English language, we fortunately have members of the community who can interpret. These people would therefore not be affected in any way.

The hon member for Glenview also mentioned the question of the provision of facilities for the disabled; in this area my department is in the forefront. The recommendations made by my department concerning the training and placing of disabled persons have been accepted by the Cabinet in a report entitled Disability in the Republic of South Africa. The provision of assessment, therapy and work adjustment centres is also an indication of the direction in which my department is heading.

I want to place on record my appreciation for the remarks made by the hon member for Laudium. He has often discussed the question of a hospital in Laudium and, of course, the Lenasia Hospital. We have had meetings with the MEC, Mr Daan Kirstein. At present we are having a problem at Laudium in that the occupancy rate is very low. In order to justify having a full-time superintendent where we do not have all that many members of the Indian community, we have always adopted a policy that the hospital should be open to all. This means that there will be a higher occupancy rate and this will enable us to qualify for a full-time superintendent. The MEC did indicate that he would look at this issue, and he welcomed the proposal.

As far as emergency services are concerned, we are constantly in contact with the Transvaal Provincial Administration. They have given us an indication that in case of an emergency nobody would be refused admission. Should the hon member be aware of any specific cases to the contrary, I would like him to draw my attention to this. I will certainly take up the matter from there.

For the benefit of my colleague, I just want to say that as far as the Lenasia Hospital is concerned, we have a 24-hour service at that hospital. I have also been approached by other colleagues who had mentioned this. I just want to make mention of a very recent report which was obtained at my request. According to the report, nurses provide a 24-hour casualty and maternity service, although there are doctors on duty at night. Patients suffering from major ailments are referred to the Coronation Hospital by nurses.

In order to provide an effective 24-hour service, 9 sessional appointments are required. At present there are only four applicants doing sessional work. I sincerely hope that these sessional doctors will be available so that we can provide a 24-hour service. Our colleagues in the Transvaal are aware of the fact that we have the major problem that there is no public transport near this hospital. The management committee mentioned that they are also endeavouring to find out how they can best come up with some provision as far as transport is concerned.

I do not want to read out the list of the number of outpatients that were treated in the casualty ward and so forth. I think I have done it once before. However, I want to say that the very latest report is that the hospital itself is becoming much busier now. They are getting many more patients.

For record purposes I only want to read out the very latest figures of up to a week ago. Presently 32 outpatients are being treated daily but only a few in-patients are being treated. Approximately 600 outpatients were seen in February and up to 13 March 240 were seen. One Indian and two female medical officers are in full-time employment between 08h00 and 16h00 and they do not work after 18h00.

The hon member also mentioned the question of a donation by a businessman in the Transvaal. While we appreciate this donation to the TPA—it is a substantial amount of almost R0,5 million—it is subject to certain conditions. I do not actually want to discuss this and in all fairness I would not like to disclose the name or the amounts involved but the matter is being investigated to ensure that it does not affect the naming of the hospital or anything of that nature.

I am aware of the problem regarding the office in Pretoria. We are certainly going to look at the aspect of times, because we have a problem in that regard. While our department administers or provides a service over there the Department of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture in turn provides the office space for us. We have indicated to our colleagues over there that we should try to co-ordinate our services and as far as welfare is concerned, at no stage to provide services or offices in second and third storey offices. I do not think this is acceptable to the community. We shall certainly ensure that we shall not run into that same problem with future offices that we are planning.

I now want to come to the hon member for Allandale. I just want to read out a little note that I have here. It was not written by him but by a colleague of his. It reads as follows:

This is very heartening and I do not think the hon member was serious when he said that I should resign because I do not believe I have any reason to do so. If I had perhaps been involved in forms of corruption, maladministration, falsification of documentation and so on I would have resigned honourably but I do not have any reason to do so.

Having been in public office for the past 21 years, I believe I have a very clean record and I shall maintain that record until the day when I personally decide to retire honourably. [Interjections.] For that reason I do not think the hon member genuinely and sincerely means it because we have a very good understanding. We have discussed many issues. As colleagues we have the right to exchange views. I do not take exception to any criticism. I believe in constructive criticism. I am pleased that the hon member has spoken his mind so that he will at least greet me when I pass him in future.

I want to refer to a question for oral reply posed by the hon member. The reply that was submitted to the hon member was a direct answer to the question posed. I know exactly what the hon member wanted to know but we had to respond directly to what had been asked. Should the hon member require any further information as far as that particular matter is concerned, I will give him all the reports with the greatest of pleasure. I do not give out confidential files. These files are not really for public consumption, but as an hon colleague he is most welcome to look at them.

I want to express my appreciation to my hon colleague for drawing my attention to the report that we sent out to all hon members. The figures given on that page are correct. The hon member also drew my attention to figures which were obtained by the welfare study group. That documentation—the hon member kindly lent me his copy of the minutes—does contain certain figures. Unfortunately, however, our files are in Durban and we have not been able as yet to obtain them. I will come back to the hon member to substantiate the figures.

I just want to mention that because of the questions posed by the hon member, I am now in a position to inform him that a submission is presently being prepared for the Treasury to increase the amount relating to adults. The amount of R14 will now be increased to R20,40 per week. The amount for children under 10 years will be increased to R14 per child as from 1 April 1989. I want to thank the hon member for drawing my attention to that.

Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon the Minister a question. He said that these social relief grants of R20 will be implemented in April and he mentioned the words “per week”. I am aware that at present it is only given once every fortnight as a single amount. Could the hon the Minister please clarify the matter?

In answering this I am actually referring to Port Elizabeth because I know what happens in the offices there. The instructions sent out specify that, rather than inconveniencing families to have to come week after week to collect their social relief payments, it is issued fortnightly. Just to get to the office costs a person X amount for bus fare. I will certainly ensure that this is done at all our offices.

Will it then be double the amount every two weeks?

Yes, that is right. I now move on to the hon member for Havenside. My colleague the hon the Minister of the Budget has already responded with regard to Hazelmere House. I cannot say that the place is already in full swing but we are busy there. As the report clearly indicates, we already have a few patients. With regard to the Phoenix Hospital, my report mentions it.

It is long overdue.

Yes, very much so. It is a fact that the Phoenix Hospital is overdue but hon members must appreciate that it is now a general affair and we therefore have to make a tremendous effort. In one particular case—I will come to it later—it took us about two and a half years to get the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development to give us some information that we needed.

Therefore, whilst we and our officials try to expedite matters we do have some practical problems. Hon members must please bear with us in this regard. We realise the need that exists to establish that hospital as soon as possible and we would love to do it, but we do experience problems.

With regard to the Phoenix Hospital, I just want to mention that the Department of Local Government and Housing is in the process of acquiring the land from the Natal Provincial Administration. There is a meeting scheduled for tomorrow morning between senior officials of my department and the Department of National Health and Population Development to decide on the need norms for the hospital. I have already indicated in my speech that a facility of 350 beds for acute care and 150 beds for aftercare will be provided with the possible expansion of the acute care facility to 500 beds.

Mention was also made of the overload placed on our social workers. Here I want to express my appreciation to our entire staff, including our social workers who are in fact doing double the normal amount of work. I am aware of the fact that they are overworked and underpaid but we have restrictions as far as the Commission for Administration is concerned. We would certainly love to double our number of staff but we have a problem there. I want to record my appreciation to the social workers.

The hon member for Chatsworth Central mentioned the R K Khan Hospital. I am pleased that he has given us quite a bit of detail with regard to that hospital. However, the hon member must appreciate the fact that the R K Khan Hospital does not fall within our jurisdiction. It falls within the jurisdiction of the Natal Provincial Administration. With regard to the issues he has raised in connection with that hospital, I will certainly take it up with the provincial administration to try to ensure that some improvements are made, because the improvements are positively necessary.

The hon member for Newholme was concerned about the Northdale Hospital which lies within his constituency. My information with regard-to the fee is that, whilst there is a stipulated fee of a minimum of R2, no patient would be turned away should he not have that R2 for admission. That has been an arrangement among all the provinces. I think the hon member can rest assured, nobody would, in fact, be turned away should they not have the R2 fee which is charged.

We have discussed the school feeding scheme on a number of occasions. We indicated that school principals have been advised that they should inform us should there be cases giving rise to concern. We have not received any such information, but one can appreciate that it is most embarrassing for a school principal to write back and say that there are 50 children who require such facilities. I do not think it is a principal’s intention to embarrass any child. However, we will look into this aspect once again.

Mr Chairman, with regard to the R2 fee, I want to ask the hon the Minister whether, if the patient does not have that R2 on the first visit, he would be told on his second visit that the fee is R6 or R25.

From the information at my disposal after discussion with the various medical superintendents, they should not charge that person anything. Even if one does not have that R2 one should be allowed treatment. However, if that is not being done, I would very much like to know so that we can draw attention to the fact that this is what we have been told by the MECs.

With regard to the question of the registration of doctors, I am pleased that the hon member raised this particular issue. It is an issue in which our administration has played a very vital part. There is an institution known as Omega that has been trying to take a lot of credit for work which they have not done. For the record I think our colleagues should know that as far as the restricted registration of doctors that have been trained abroad is concerned, I can make a statement here today that has come out of a representation made by my department. I personally was involved in it until such time as we had some relaxation and emanating from this an ad hoc committee has been established which looks at applications. They also speak in terms of hospitals in a crisis situation, but there one can probably use one’s own discretion as to whether there really have to be so many deaths before one regards it as a crisis situation. I must say that the ad hoc committee now meets on a monthly basis. Whereas in the past the executive committee considered applications and very few were successful, during the January meeting, emanating from the decision made by myself, 21 medical practitioners’ applications were approved. On 16 February 18 medical practitioners’ and eight interns’ applications were approved.

There were reasons for those applications that were not approved. It is not my function to tell the SA Medical Council exactly how to run their business. However, we have been very successful as far as doctors trained abroad are concerned.

With regard to Windmill Park, I appreciate that the hon member was concerned about the health hazard. I do not think the local authorities will switch off the electricity any longer. They have given us some relief. I understand that permits are to be issued, so hopefully that question will not arise.

Fortunately, I think that at Windmill Park—just in lighter vein—one must appreciate the White neighbours who responded and said they were prepared to allow their washing machines and electricity to be used and to assist wherever necessary. However I think that that problem has been eliminated.

My hon colleague, the hon member for Isipingo, also raised a number of very important issues relating to school feeding, health and welfare matters and so on. I want to give him the assurance that we shall certainly study his recommendations and proposals very carefully and implement whatever is possible.

The hon member for Central Rand mentioned a number of issues relating to Actonville, where they do not have a full-time office. However the hon nominated member Mr Razak and the hon member for Actonville mentioned the Actonville Community Health Centre. Tenders are going out on the 23rd of the month. That project is costing the department R750 000, and when that comes up—it will be completed within a year—they may rest assured that they will have an office in the area that will be well worth having. It is going to be a beautiful office which will fulfil the needs of the area. Various other issues were raised by the hon member. I shall consider them when the Hansard comes out to see how best we can deal with those issues.

The hon member for Cavendish raised the issue of the centre for the care of the aged at Shallcross as well as the question of alcoholism. I think that this is dealt with in my report. This has also been raised by a few other hon members who showed tremendous concern. I think that it is important for purposes of the record to mention that alcohol and drug abuse have crept right into our schools already. It is a sad state of affairs, and every effort is being made jointly between myself and my colleague to ensure that we can provide the necessary health nurses and social workers in an effort to eliminate this particular problem.

The hon member for Actonville has also put forward some proposals and recommendations here relating to parity in pensions and so on. I shall deal with this in relation to the Dookie Report. The question of property assets is also dealt with in that report.

He mentioned the paramedics—that is to say, the physiotherapists, speech therapists and occupational therapists, who are now referred to as supplementary health service professionals. There is a tremendous shortage of these personnel, as indicated by the fact that there are approximately 27 of these posts vacant in the special schools. In order to eliminate the problem, and to encourage training of these personnel in my department, the Commission for Administration has made bursaries available. We sincerely hope that we will get some applicants as far as this field is concerned.

I want to thank the hon nominated member Mr Razak for his words this afternoon. He indicated that there are Indians living in the Transvaal. I am aware of that, since I have been in the Transvaal a number of times! However, we are giving attention to all the provinces; the Transvaal is not being neglected in any way.

The hon member for Lenasia Central mentioned the opening of the hospital. He wanted to know about the availability of funds for the future running of the hospital. My hon colleague, the hon the Minister of the Budget, indicated earlier that while we did provide an additional R3,3 million for the running of the hospital, at all stages, even when this was taken over on 1 June from our administration, we believe that we should give it to someone who can handle the situation. As far as we are concerned, it will be done at all stages on an agency basis.

As regards the question of the appointments to the hospital board, I think I should also mention that the names submitted for the hospital board were submitted by our colleagues, the MPs for the constituencies concerned. The hon member for Lenasia Central was one of those who submitted a few names. He can rest assured that as far as I am concerned there is no such thing as jobs for pals. We do not operate like that. Appointments are made strictly on merit, and that is how it will be at all stages.

He was concerned about the squatters. This is an issue which is being taken up by the Transvaal Provincial Administration.

Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon the Minister if any names were submitted by the ministerial representative of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State, and whether any of those names were considered for appointment.

That is quite correct. The ministerial representative did submit a few names and so did the hon member for Lenasia Central, as did the hon member for North Western Transvaal, Mr Dasoo.

However, the point that I really want to make—I know my hon colleague did submit a notice of motion—is that, unfortunately or fortunately, all six members happened to be members of the Indian group. At no stage in my request to submit names for the board did I indicate that they must be from the Indian group. Members from any other race group would have been most welcome, as was the case in other institutions where I have appointed or recommended members.

All that we did was to make recommendations. We submitted 26 names to the Transvaal Provincial Administration and they, in their own wisdom and without any individual recommendation, appointed the members. In fairness to the MEC I must say that he did telephone me and said that he recommended certain members and that he would like to appoint them on 11 January. I told him that he must use his discretion and I confirmed it.

The hon member mentioned the new regional office with regard to Lenasia. We have already taken up this issue. I will concede that the suboffice in Lenasia is not really worth the building in which it is situated. [Interjections.] I had strongly recommended that we should identify suitable land so that the regional office could be in Lenasia itself because it is unfair that the bulk of the people who live in Lenasia have to go all the way to Central Johannesburg in order to attend to their community affairs. It is simply not a practical proposition.

As is the case with most of these matters, I inherited these problems and now we find ourselves in problem situations from which it is very difficult to extricate ourselves. In any case, we will certainly give instructions that they look for a site so that the regional office can be in Lenasia. Coming to social security matters, the hon member referred to the committee of which my colleague the hon member for Red Hill is the chairman. It is not being done on a party basis—the very fact that I appointed him as the chairman, as well as the hon member for Reservoir Hills, clearly indicates that. We are situated in Durban simply for practical purposes. Both men have experience in the field of welfare. We also appointed Dr Bete Naidoo who is an expert in this particular field. We therefore have professional men involved.

At the same time the Transvaal and the other provinces will not be neglected because this committee will probably spend a week in the Transvaal to interview various organisations. This will happen throughout the country. I hope these answers satisfy my hon colleague.

The hon member for Northern Coast raised various issues as well. I know he has been encroaching on three different constituencies, namely Verulam, Tongaat and another part of Northern Natal. However, I do not think his hon colleagues minded that. It is because of his deep concern for the community at large.

Every time that my colleague the hon member for Tongaat sees me, he refers to the sub-office in Tongaat. I appreciate that this area has the third-largest population in Natal. Arrangements have now been made to identify a sub-office. I must be quite honest. The only reason why I did not pursue this issue immediately after the byelection was because, as an election gimmick, my colleagues at that time made certain promises. [Interjections.] I did not want them to think that we were going to fulfil the promises so quickly. Things did happen shortly thereafter. However, they will get that office.

I now come to the matter of Hazelmere House. It is alongside the new offices of the hon member for Northern Coast. With regard to Verulam, we do have a practical problem. The offices presently being occupied are completely inadequate and hopeless for the community we are serving. Whoever identified that must have sat in an office in Johannesburg or Durban. I do not believe they even looked at it. There was a bottle-store on the corner and bookmakers nearby. Also to climb a flight of steps to get there is very undesirable. However, I do want to inform him, for the benefit of hon members who represent those areas, that negotiations with the town board are going very well. Hopefully, if we are successful, the old Verulam market site will be used. The town board plans to erect a building there and if it meets with our requirements, we will use it. Certainly negotiations are going on, and if we are successful, it will probably be one of the most adequate places for such an office. That is definitely on the cards and hopefully within the next twelve months we will have something positive there. In the present office we have in fact been served with notice and we have been granted an extension at the moment.

I want to thank the hon the Minister of the Budget for his contribution and his appreciation for what has been done. I also express my appreciation to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. He has in fact raised some of the issues to which I have replied. I can however appreciate that he, as Leader of the Official Opposition, has to say something, even if it hurts me. We are very good friends although we are in opposite camps and we are still very good colleagues. I take note of what has been mentioned.

No, he is not your opposition. He supported you as Minister.

You are on loan.

I am on loan, I see. The hon member for Merebank mentioned the question of old age homes. We in fact do not build old age homes. I indicated to the hon member that should there be a bona fide welfare institution which wishes to erect an old age home, there is no problem with applications for funds made to our department. Funds are given almost for free, at 1% interest over 40 years, as long as they can get the local authority to guarantee the funds. There is no problem there at all. I would welcome an application to provide such facilities.

I also want to thank the hon member for Stanger for his contribution to this debate. He is an allrounder, and I thank him for what he said in this debate. The hon member for Camperdown made some very sound and constructive proposals and I want to record my appreciation to him.

As far as the hon member for Red Hill is concerned, I want to indicate that I have received a very comprehensive interim report, most of which relates to the bread-and-butter issues that have been raised in this debate this afternoon. We have not really had time to study this since it was presented to me. We will obtain some legal opinions from our legal advisers as well. I have asked both my directors to study this and come back with reports in order for me to make a submission to the Ministers’ Council regarding the extent to which we can implement it. It is an excellent report and I want to record my appreciation to the three members who served on the committee and really went out of their way to make the presentation possible today.

I think I have covered most speakers who made contributions. With these words I want to express once again my sincere thanks and appreciation to all concerned. I have said that I always welcome sound and constructive criticism, recommendations and proposals and I want to give hon members the assurance that from my side, with the limited budget we have here, we will endeavour to deal with as many issues raised by them as possible. Once again I express my thanks to all hon members.

Debate concluded.