Mr Speaker, right at the outset I should like to add my congratulations to those expressed by the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council to Mr Wessels Meyer, our Director-General, who retires in August after 30 years of parliamentary service. We are going to miss him, and I think he will probably miss Parliament more than he may expect now. He has had a most distinguished career, for which we honour him. We wish him well upon his retirement later this year. I also want to thank those hon members who took part in this debate.

*A total of 27 hon members participated in this debate. I thank them very sincerely for their interest in the Administration: House of Assembly. In particular I want to thank the hon members for Yeoville, Kuruman, Klip River, Pietermaritzburg South, Gezina and Pinelands, as well as the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare, very sincerely for the congratulations they conveyed to us and the fine compliments they paid us. We are grateful for that.

†This Budget cannot be seen in isolation. If this Budget is to be understood it must be seen against the background of the national Budget, and also against the background of the economic and financial climate in our country at this particular time.

The hon the Minister of Finance, in his Budget Speech last Wednesday, was constrained by the fact that South Africa had to produce a sustainable surplus on the current account of the balance of payments for the fifth consecutive year in order to repay foreign debt, to build up reserves and to fund imports. Bearing in mind that next year we will have the problem again of the standstill renegotiations, that also coloured his thinking. The hon the Minister admitted that an unsatisfactory aspect of his Budget was that the Government’s net borrowing requirement of R9,949 billion is still much larger than the estimated capital expenditure of just over R5 billion. This cannot be allowed to go any higher lest we put further pressure on the money and capital markets thereby provoking interest rates to rise still further. Thus, the simple truth is if we as the Government want to spend more, we will have to tax more. We do not want to do that because we feel we cannot. We do not wish to do so because it is not the policy of this Government. We do not wish to borrow more because we are already spending borrowed money to finance current expenditure, as hon members know. We do not want to drive interest rates up any further and we do not want to increase the money supply any further because we already have the problem of inflation on our hands. It is against this background that our Budget also took place.

The answer is a very simple one. One must apply discipline and economic restructuring. Both are being done. Hence, we see that the gross domestic expenditure is expected to increase in nominal terms by 16% or 17% but State expenditure by only 15%. We also see in our administration—if one takes out the non-recurring expenditure for last year—that our real expenditure is growing by 14,7% year on year and this is less than the percentage rate at which State expenditure is rising. This is an enormous achievement when one considers that 76% of the expenses of this administration are comprised of salaries. Of the 76% spent on salaries, 81,4% is spent on teachers’ salaries alone. This is therefore a good Budget for the taxpayer because we are making our contribution to the national effort. We are providing services at the same standards with roughly the same staff as we had last year, with only a nominal increase in expenditure namely 5,7% over the revised estimate.

How did we do this? We did this by discipline, productivity increases, better training, rationalisation and better motivation, a whole host of actions for which I want to congratulate this administration.

*We in South Africa must, in the short term, consolidate the good performance of the past year. By applying financial discipline we must make certain that we do not lose the good things we achieved last year through overspending or high inflation rates or further balance-of-payment crises. That is the background I want to sketch.

Before I go further and refer to the individual members who participated in the debate I want to say something about the buildings on Church Square.

In my Budget Speech I announced that we were going to take over the three buildings on the Western Facade for offices for two of the Ministers of the Ministers’ Council, as well as for the ministerial representatives. Yesterday in Rapport I saw the following headline: “Kerkplein bly turksvy. Wat van gewone man? vra Punt.” This is an article in which Dr Willem Punt is quoted as ostensibly saying that he thinks what has now happened is not a good idea because the man in the street is going to be denied these buildings. I was unable to get hold of this journalist, but this morning I phoned Dr Willem Punt and asked him what he had meant by what had been attributed to him in the article. He had ostensibly said:

Then he ostensibly went on to say that he considered this to be a bad idea because we were going to neutralise the whole place. I explained to Dr Punt exactly what I had said in the debate and what we were envisaging. After I had done that he complimented me and asked me to convey his compliments to the House. He said he was very pleased with what we were doing and thought it was a good thing. According to him he was led to believe the wrong thing by young Mr Johan Strydom, who wrote this report.

Apparently he had told Dr Punt that we were going to take over the building and neutralise it. But that is not the truth. It is true that we are going to take over the building, but we are going to restore it at great expense. We are taking only the first and the second storeys for our ministerial offices. The National Monument Council is going to have offices there, as well as the ministerial representatives and the Simon van der Stel Foundation. In addition we are bringing back the small shops that used to be there. As Dr Punt therefore proposed, we are bringing back the Nedbank people. Nedbank began in that building 100 years ago.

†There will also be a small kiosk for a tobacconist. The chemist is coming back, as well as all kinds of little shops and boutiques. They will help to bring back this building as a lively contribution to the people of Pretoria and to the central part of Pretoria. So, what we are doing is exactly in line with what they want and I am glad that I was able to clear up the matter.

*Yesterday the hon member for Lichtenburg was the first speaker on the Official Opposition side. He was the main speaker. [Interjections.]

In the previous debate.

Sorry, it was in Friday’s debate. He was the main speaker for the Official Opposition and he had a great deal to say here. He said that we no longer considered own affairs to be a priority and he carried on quite wildly here. [Interjections.] I looked at his speech and for him own affairs was such a great priority that he spent less than four minutes discussing finances. He also merely referred to certain aspects of agriculture.

He would not have raised these matters if he had read the memorandum, because my colleague the hon the Minister of Agriculture and Water Supply, in that memorandum, specifically explained the matters which he raised very clearly. I am not blaming him for that, because he did display the integrity of admitting that he had not read the budget in its entirety. He said in his speech that he had not read all of it.

†That is the explanation for the fact that he asked all kinds of silly questions.

*I just want to tell him I think the farmers have better champions than he. [Interjections.] I just want to tell him, too, that it is no use using this kind of insular, crude and exorbitant language when discussing the interests of the farmers. It is not good for the farmers, nor is it good for the debate.

†It adds nothing to the sum total of human knowledge.

*What he mentioned here is not even true.

Then it was the turn of the hon member for Soutpansberg. I see he is sitting there fast asleep. [Interjections.] I shall talk to him and when I am finished he can go back to sleep. [Interjections.] I will not keep him awake for longer than a few minutes. I do not want to disturb him. [Interjections.]

Order!

Have a look at Piet Swanepoel too!

Order!

I want to apologise to the hon member for disturbing him. [Interjections.] He discussed interference by big money in the policy structures of South Africa and said that it was not acceptable to him. Allow me to tell him at once that it is not acceptable to me either. I do not think interference in the policy structures of our country is acceptable to any of us in this Parliament, but having said that I want to tell that hon member that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

†That hon member comes along in the debate and makes the most unbelievable attack upon Mr Gavin Relly of Anglo American. However, there is nothing unusual about that because the hon nominated member, Mr Derby-Lewis, was invited as a member of the Joint Committee on Trade and Industry to address Fedhasa. What did he do?

*He interfered in Fedhasa’s affairs.

†Fedhasa took great exception to it, and I am now quoting from The Citizen of 4 October 1988:

*They can interfere in the hotel industry. Then the NBS came along, and what happened?

†Every company is entitled to have whatever agents it likes. If one appoints agents, one can expect them to behave with decorum within the policies of one’s company, and if one wants to terminate those relationships, one is able to do so. Here comes a councillor in Boksburg who is an agent for the NBS and, because of the happenings in Boksburg, the NBS chooses to terminate the man’s agency. [Interjections.] I do not know whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. Frankly, I would not appoint an agent like that if I was the NBS, but that is a personal opinion. That is not so bad, but what was the consequence? What happened then?

*What did the hon member for Overvaal say when NBS terminated this agency? He said there were 100 town and city councils in South Africa dominated by the CP, and if the NBS did not immediately reinstate this person in his agency, he was going to tell the CP councils not to do any further business with NBS. That means that this gentleman, the hon member for Overvaal, is meddling in every municipality, every investment decision and every local government dominated by them throughout the country.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

No, Sir.

My friend the hon member for Soutpansberg says it is wrong to meddle, but the hon member Mr Derby-Lewis and the hon member for Overvaal are meddling, and that is not the end of it. Those people attacked Mobil Oil. They attacked JCI because those people tried to protect them against the ridiculous policy proclaimed by the hon member Derby-Lewis who wanted to withhold strategic mineral exports to the USA.

“Mister Derby-Lewis” to you! [Interjections.]

They did not want to allow the exporters to export platinum. When JCI reacted to that, they attacked that company too. They attacked the total interests of the mining industry. They attacked the oil industry. [Interjections.] They attacked the building societies. [Interjections.] They also attacked Colgate-Palmolive. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members are making too many interjections. The hon the Minister may proceed.

If one reads the newspapers, this is very interesting: “CP warns Government”; “Boycott is double-edged sword”. Still further: “NBS tops the CP hit list!” These are the headlines I am quoting now. In the Tribune: “CP gunning for oil companies”; “CP challenges the NBS”; “NBS facing veiled boycott from CP”; and “CP demands end to mineral sales to US”.

These people are meddling on a colossal scale. Then they come along in this debate and attack the unfortunate gentleman, Gavin Relly, who is merely trying to defend his company against the attacks of those people.

†The hon member should make a deal with the NBS. He should make peace with them and exchange logos. He should take the golden banana because he wants to turn South Africa into a banana republic. [Interjections.] I think a golden banana would be a very nice emblem for the CP. [Interjections.]

I would like to come to the hon member for Yeoville. As always, his fertile imagination raced ahead as he came up with a whole plethora of issues, some of which I am able to answer in this debate and others which do not properly form part of this debate and which we will have to take further on other occasions. His speech was one of criticism and of compliments. I thank him for the compliments and will attempt to answer his criticism.

I want to measure our Budget against the most rigorous and critical test that I am able to find at this time, a test that I think most hon members will regard as authoritative. This test is what I call the Schwarz Test. In an article of 11 March the hon member specified what we should expect from the Budget, and exactly what the Budget should do if it was going to be a good budget.

Very good!

I agree absolutely. It is a good article and I admire it. I could not agree more. It is very well-written and well-constructed—just the kind of thing we would expect from the hon member for Yeoville.

The hon member lays down certain criteria for a good budget. The first criterion is “a commitment to keep to the expenditure figures in the budget”. The hon member will know that last year, if one takes out the transfer payments, our own income and the salary increases—in other words, if one looks at the real additional expenditure—the additional expenditure of this administration was 0,9%. That is less than 1%. Since 2% is regarded as acceptable, I think 0,9% must be regarded as outstanding, so we pass the first of the Schwarz Tests. [Interjections.]

The second test which the hon member lays down is that “only in exceptional circumstances should additional expenditure be permitted”. Well, we pass that one as well. Then he says that “total expenditure should be reduced in real terms; that is, any nominal increase must be meaningfully below the anticipated inflation rate”. Our Budget, at 5,7% nominal over the revised estimates of last year, is well below the inflation rate, so we have passed the third of the Schwarz Tests.

I gave you a first-class pass on that one!

We passed that test with flying colours.

He then says we should carry out “an immediate review of State functions and freezing of new posts—no new posts should be created except where essential—and the planned phasing out of duplication of services”.

*From 1 December 1987 to 1 April 1988 our administration succeeded in abolishing 409 posts. He will be pleased about that. During the period 1 April 1988 to 31 January 1989 we created 340 posts in respect of existing functions, while during the same period 355 posts were abolished. Furthermore a total of 22 posts were created, if we take all the staff changes into consideration. The net result of all this is that the total establishment only had to be augmented by 7 posts during the period under discussion.

†I think the hon member will agree that we pass that one as well. So far we have scored four out of five or 80%.

Then he says—this is the fifth of the Schwarz Tests—that “revenue should not be deliberately understated to allow for contingency overspending”. Well, he knows that we underspent by R100 million. We overestimated by R100 million. We also then passed the last of the tests which the hon member set for us. We are very pleased that we were able to do that.

As far as the Assocom Test is concerned, Mr Parsons says, when referring to the hon the Minister of Finance and when he talks about the budget, that the overriding test would be its success in reducing State spending. We have in fact substantially reduced State spending in real terms. So we passed the Assocom Test as well.

*The hon member for Barberton and other hon members who participated in the debate also mentioned the question of the formula.

†Despite the fact that we have been debating this issue on and off for a long time, I simply have this to say to the hon member. We have in fact come up with a solution. This administration …

What is the solution? Is it a secret?

Let me tell you. We came up with a solution, took that solution to the Central Treasury and debated it with them. They said that we were right and that they thought it was a good idea. They have prepared a memorandum and it is before the Cabinet. If the hon member wants to fight about it, he must transfer his attack to my colleague the hon the Minister of Finance or the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council because, as far as I am concerned, we have done what we can and I hope that this issue will now come to a speedy conclusion.

This is five years.

I have not been involved for five years.

*The hon member also said that he found it unacceptable that 4 371 people should be earning less than R170 a month. I just want to explain this quickly. I am very pleased to be able to convey this information to the hon member. These people mentioned on page xiv of the Estimate for the 1989-90 financial year represent examiners and moderators of the Department of Education and Culture. These persons are not employed in a full-time capacity.

†They are moderators and examiners. This is piecework and they get extra for it. This is extra money. Those criticisms of the hon member were not well-founded. The hon member went on to say …

Your colleague said they were labourers.

I said they were labourers. I will tell the hon member which category were labourers. I now want to mention the second category.

*The next group the hon member mentioned earns below R500 per month. No full-time employee in the service of the Administration: House of Assembly earns less than R2 000 per year. From 1 January 1989 the minimum remuneration in respect of full-time employees has been R2 685 per annum. That is the minimum.

†Who are those people? They are what are called general assistants. They are mainly farm labourers and unskilled labourers, many of whom are housed permanently on research stations and farms of the administration and thus also received other benefits, other than the R2 685 per year. I can say to the hon member that we must be very careful in South Africa when we talk about minimum wages. The big wage gap in South Africa is no longer the Black-White wage gap, but is now the Black-Black wage gap that is beginning to cause problems in South Africa. There are companies in South Africa where the minimum wage of a Black unskilled worker is over R1 000 per month. That is because certain Blacks are in an insider position and able to negotiate very high salaries for themselves. There is a Black-Black wage gap developing which is not a good thing for our country because wages are very often not related to productivity and this very often affects our capacity to compete internationally and also causes undue mechanisation in our economy because people flee from high labour costs and seek to mechanise as an escape. That is not a good thing for anybody in South Africa. That completes my remarks in regard to the hon member for Yeoville.

The hon member for Claremont made a speech and quoted Calpin. I do not know why he made the speech. I am not sure what he was doing here but he said that there are no South Africans. He said Calpin said 30 or 40 years ago that there were no South Africans. He made the announcement here that in his view there were still no South Africans. I want to say what I have said about that hon member before and which I will repeat here today. He is in South Africa but not of South Africa. He is in this House but not of this House. I want to say to that hon member there are South Africans who are loyal—they are alive and well, they are present in all sides of this House, in all the communities of South Africa—but I exclude the hon member … [Interjections.] … from those Black, White, Coloured and Indian South Africans who are defending our country and who are loyal people right across the colour and language lines. What he is speaking about is a South Africa that disappeared a long time ago.

The hon member for Pinelands made an interesting speech. He came with his usual attack upon own affairs, ideologically. Of course, we beg to differ. We agree to differ. The hon member is entitled to his opinions. However, I want to say only this: Own affairs never has been and never can be an attempt to perpetuate old style apartheid. Own affairs is not a new way of perpetuating unacceptable forms of government. Own affairs is not an attempt to make apartheid succeed in some new structure of government in a way that was found wanting in some old structure of government. Own affairs is not a new centrifugal force which tends to divide or subdivide our society yet further.

Own affairs is our administration’s attempt to find new ways and structures for South Africa to cohere, and this is not an exclusive concept. [Interjections.] It is not an attempt to sow division. It is an attempt to find new ways of allowing our country—given the realities of the profile of our history, geography, demography, standards of living and cultural heritage—to cohere. It is an inclusive concept. It is not an exclusive concept. Own affairs when taken together as a whole, taking account of the other administrations also, must be seen as a whole. These administrations do not challenge or negate each other. They augment each other.

We serve predominantly White interests but we do not serve only White interests. We have vital secondary responsibilities to society as a whole. That is why our administration throughout is not dogmatic and we accept that we have an overriding loyalty to our country which predominates over that which we do in this House. No less a person than Mr Henry Kissinger was quoted as follows in this regard in Special Dispatch the other day:

and I am quoting Dr Kissinger now—

So there is a realization world-wide of the complexity of our country and our society to which this own affairs administration attempts to respond. Group rights must not obstruct individual rights and the two things in my view are not exclusive. As a matter of fact, the hon the Leader of the House—the hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council himself—has gone on record in this regard recently.

I think the Law Commission Report, which saw the light of day very recently, is a very interesting document. This plan for a negotiated Bill of Rights I consider will give rise to one of the most significant and vital debates yet commenced in South Africa. I believe that we must not cheapen that debate, but all go into it with care and humility. This debate has to proceed if we are to lead our country forward to higher forms and standards of government. Locked up in this report and in the debate which will flow from it lies guarantees for those of us who seek guarantees for the future. If we as a nation can reach consensus on which ideals we wish to uphold and which values we wish to sustain, expand or entrench, it will make the constitutional debate and the economic debate in our country very much easier. [Interjections.] The debate is about to commence and all I can ask is that hon members go into the debate with an open mind and not carry past prejudices with them.

I would like to close with a thought on the hon member Dr De Beer, who came into this debate and tried to sow division on the leadership issue. He is not going to succeed in doing that, because this party was established in May 1914 and it is the only party which still exists in this House since that date. It is stable, consistent, cohesive, thinking, powerful and committed. In the short time since I have been here I have seen the hon members on that side of the House change from the United Party …

Of which you were a member!

That is correct. From all sides of this House there were members. Even the hon member for Ermelo, from the ranks of the CP, was a member. We should have an old boys’ dinner one day! [Interjections.] The fact of the matter is that we saw the United Party, the birth of the Progressive Party, the birth of the Reform Party, then the birth of the Progressive Reform Party—the death of the Progressive Party and the birth of the Progressive Reform Party—its death and the birth of the Progressive Federal Party, the PFP alliance, the NRP, the Independent Party, the Independent Democratic Party and now of course the Republican Party and the CP on that side of the House as well—so many parties which have come and gone.

This party is a cohesive force and it will remain a cohesive force in South Africa. [Interjections.] That is why the eyes of South Africa are not fixed upon this share-rigging which is going to go on between the parties in April where the hon member Dr De Beer has been brought in because of his business skills to put the whole lot together. [Interjections.] They are not going to succeed. All the king’s horses and all the king’s men are not going to put Humpty Dumpty together again.

The interesting thing is that the hon member Dr De Beer does not want to be the leader, because one can see that he lost heart long ago. He does not want to be the leader. This idea that he wants to be the leader of the new party is untrue. He cannot wait for the new party to be formed so that he can return to his directorship. He does not want it. There is only one man who wants it and that is Dr Worrall. [Interjections.] The hon leader of the PFP does not want it; in fact he would be delighted if somebody else would take over the leadership from him. He does not even know within his party whether it consists of leftists or liberals. If one reads the report of their financial adviser, Prof Sampie Terreblanche, then one cannot be surprised that the hon member is in such a tizzy and such a knot.

[Inaudible.]

He never advised me. I quote Prof Sampie Terreblance from Business Day of 10 March 1989 as saying:

Yes, he says:

I do not know about other hon members, but that golden goose going to the slaughter is not going to be me.

If we look at what South Africa has had to face over these past five years, Business Day, in referring to the hon the Minister of Finance’s Budget in particular, mentioned that it showed the remarkable resilience of South Africa. I want to tell hon members that our country is a miracle country and the NP is a miracle party. [Interjections.] The PFP has lost Gordon Waddell, Tony Bloom and Chris Ball who have all left the country. Let us look at the PFP’s losses in the Johannesburg City Council: Michael MacMan resigned and emigrated to the USA; Joyce Gersin resigned and emigrated to Israel; Janet Levine resigned and emigrated to the USA; Mike Sutherland resigned while in Australia and announced that he was staying there; Alan Gadd went to Israel, and so it goes on. The Randburg City Council lost PFP member Dorian Dent who emigrated to New Zealand. [Interjections.] While these people were emigrating we were planning Mossel Bay.

In the past five years this Government has had to face one 100 year drought and one 200 year drought. We have had to face a revolutionary war in our streets. We have had to face a hot war on our frontiers. We have had to face the biggest propaganda war that any country has ever had to face in the history of mankind. We have had to face a trade war, a sanctions war inwards and trade sanctions outwards. We have had to face a financial sanctions war. We have come through that and we have produced a sturdy budget, one of commitment and a budget which takes the long view, a new generation budget, a budget which puts South Africa’s foot upon a new long road, a budget of hope as we take this country forward to higher standards and forms of government.

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be now read a Second Time.

Division demanded.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr Chairman, owing to the fact that the hon the Minister is not capable of giving us a clear description of the Government’s plans with regard to the financing formula: owing to the fact that this Budget does not nearly succeed in doing anything constructive for agriculture, and owing to the fact that this Budget fails with regard to housing and other aspects of own affairs, the CP is not prepared to support it.

Mr Chairman, hon members of the PFP will vote against this Bill and will vote against it for the following reasons: Firstly, there is an inadequate assessment of the real priorities which are required by the community. Secondly, we regard there as being inadequate care for the aged and in particular for the social pensioner. Thirdly, we see a failure to deal with the question of the determining of a formula for the allocation of funds in regard to which the endeavours on the part of the Government have dragged on for over five years, at the end of which period they have admitted defeat and have abandoned the concept of seeking a formula. In the main, and perhaps our most important reason, for voting against the Bill is because we object to the constitutional structure in which this administration operates, not only because it does not include all race groups in one form of government but because it is not conducive to good race relations; lastly, because it causes unnecessary and wasteful multiplicity of the same services and wastes the money of the taxpayers of South Africa.

Mr Chairman, it is a great pleasure for me on behalf of this side of the House to support this Bill. As has been pointed out by the hon the Minister of the Budget and Works we have stayed within our allocated expenditure and we have had no significant staff increases, in fact the contrary is true. We have passed all the tests, as the hon the Minister has pointed out, set by the spokesman of the PFP. I think nobody can contest the fact that this is an excellent Budget and it gives me pleasure to support it.

The House divided:

AYES—100: Aucamp, J M; Badenhorst, C J W; Badenhorst, P J; Bartlett, G S; Bekker, H J; Bloomberg, S G; Botma, M C; Brazelle, J A; Breytenbach, W N; Camerer, S M; Chait, E J; Christophers, D; Clase, P J; Coetzer, P W; Cunningham, J H; De Beer, S J; De Klerk, F W; Delport, J T; De Villiers, D J; Dilley, L H M; Durr, K D S; Edwards, B V; Farrell, P J; Fick, L H; Fismer, C L; Geldenhuys, B L; Golden, S G A; Grobler, A C A C; Grobler, P G W; Heine, W J; Heunis, J C; Heyns, J H; Hugo, P F; Hunter, J E L; Jager, R; Jooste, J A; Jordaan, A L; King, T J; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kotzé, G J; Kriel, H J; Kruger, T A P; Lemmer, J J; Le Roux, D E T; Louw, E v d M; Malan, M A de M; Malherbe, G J; Marais, P G; Maré, P L; Meiring, J W H; Mentz, J H W; Meyer, R P; Myburgh, G B; Niemann, J J; Nothnagel, A E; Odendaal, W A; Oosthuizen, G C; Pretorius, J F; Pretorius, P H; Rabie, J; Radue, R J; Redinger, R E; Scheepers, J H L; Schoeman, S J (Walmer); Schoeman, S J (Sunnyside); Smit, F P; Smit, H A; Smith, H J; Snyman, A J J; Steenkamp, P J; Steyn, P T; Streicher, D M; Swanepoel, J J; Swanepoel, K D; Swanepoel, P J; Terblanche, A J W P S; Thompson, A G; Van Breda, A; Van der Merwe, C J; Van der Walt, A T; Van Deventer, F J; Van Gend, D P de K; Van Heerden, F J; Van Niekerk, A I; Van Niekerk, W A; Van Wyk, J A; Van Zyl, J G; Veldman, M H; Venter, A A; Viljoen, G v N; Vilonel, J J; Vlok, A J; Welgemoed, P J; Wessels, L.

Tellers: Blanché, J P I; Kritzinger, W T; Ligthelm, C J; Maree, M D; Meyer, W D; Schoeman, W J.

NOES—35: Barnard, M S; Coetzee, H J; Cronjé, P C; Dalling, D J; De Jager, C D; De Ville, J R; Derby-Lewis, C J; Eglin, C W; Gerber, A; Hartzenberg, F; Hulley, R R; Jacobs, S C; Langley, T; Le Roux, F J; Lorimer, R J; Malcomess, D J N; Mentz, M J; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nolte, D G H; Paulus, P J; Pienaar, D S; Prinsloo, J J S; Schoeman, C B; Schwarz, H H; Swart, R A F; Treurnicht, A P; Uys, C; Van der Merwe, S S; Van Eck, J; Van Gend, J B de R; Van Wyk, W J D; Walsh, J J.

Tellers: Snyman, W J; Van der Merwe, J H.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a first time.

Consideration of Votes

Debate on Vote No 4—“Local Government, Housing and Works”:

Mr Chairman, I should like to know whether the hon the leader-in-chief of the NP agrees with what the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs said in Piketberg on Saturday evening, as reported in the front-page article in Die Burger this morning. [Interjections.] Oh, unfortunately the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council is not here at the moment. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, from an administrative point of view, the publication of a department’s annual report is probably the climax of the year’s activities. In it the department reports to the House of Assembly and to the community on its administrative activities over the past year. In it the highlights and successes are spelled out, but quite rightly the problems are also identified and solutions to those problems are sought.

At the start of the discussion I therefore want to congratulate the administration very sincerely, and also thank them very sincerely on behalf of this side of the House. The report attests to exceptional efforts having been made by the staff of the department to carry out their task as productively and efficiently as possible—at times under very difficult circumstances. The department head and his staff must therefore be congratulated and encouraged to continue with their efforts to have all sections of the department firmly entrenched for the benefit of the country and, in particular, for the benefit of the community it serves.

This report is an example to other Government departments of how to economise. Why these terribly extravagant annual reports we receive each year—printed on glossy paper, with colour photographs and everything else? It is unnecessary and a waste of money. It seems to me as if there is a competition between departments to see whose report can cost the most. [Interjections.]

I now want to refer in detail to certain aspects of the annual report.

To what report are you referring?

I am referring to the report I received.

No, it is not that one!

Order!

The department must be congratulated on its effort to increase the productivity of the staff by way of in-service training. Nineteen different courses were provided, courses which were attended by 151 officials.

It is cause for concern, however, that so many staff members of the department, ie 140, resigned during the year. This is 20,86% of the staff complement. That is a very high staff turnover which certainly has an adverse effect on the productivity of the department. At present there are 47 vacancies involving 7% of the staff complement. These vacancies normally occur in specific professional classes. The Department of Manpower really ought to give positive attention to the training of workers in this professional class.

It is gratifying to note that the department is also importing specific systems to provide a high level of efficiency in its supply administration. Everything possible must be done to avoid the maladministration occurring in other departments.

I should like to link up with the reference in the report to the conduct of the Ministerial representatives.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member keeps referring to a report from this department which presumably has been tabled. I have tried to find out from the Clerk of the Papers whether such a report has been tabled. There is no report which has been tabled. The last report that was tabled was for 1987. I would like to know whether it is proper to refer to the report of a department which is not tabled, which is only in possession of one hon member and is not available to any of the other members?

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: That is no point of order. My hon friend’s time is now being wasted unnecessarily! The hon member for Yeoville can speak about that at a later stage if he so desires.

Order! I am inclined to agree with the hon member for Brakpan. The hon member for Middelburg may proceed. [Interjections.]

Local authorities have informed me that these individuals go to a great deal of trouble to ascertain the local conditions under which the underprivileged and the aged in our communities are living. I am not casting any reflections on any of these individuals, but why are they not elected democratically in the regional context? Everything possible must be done, however, to make sufficient funds available so that the problems … [Interjections.]

Order!

The Chairman is wrong!

Order! Did the hon member for Yeoville query the ruling of the Chair?

Yes, Mr Chairman. I said the Chairman was wrong and I think, with respectful admission, I am entitled to say so.

Order! If the hon member wants to query the ruling by the Chair he should do it in the proper way and not by means of an interjection across the floor …

Mr Chairman, I do not want to waste the hon member’s time by …

Order! I think the hon member for Yeoville should apologize to the Chair.

Mr Chairman, I apologize. I will raise it as soon as the hon member sits down. I do not want to be accused of wasting his time.

Order! The hon member for Middelburg may continue.

Mr Chairman, I shall try again. Everything possible must be done, however, to make sufficient funds available so that problems that they identify and tackle can be solved.

I therefore want to reiterate what I said in a previous debate. There are not—and there never have been—sufficient funds made available for housing for the lower income groups. To satisfy hon members opposite, in case they misunderstood me during the previous debate, I want to extend my sincere thanks for what has been done in the past. With the own affairs concept, however, we would have expected the backlog already to have been eliminated after five years.

I should now like to make a few remarks about the transfer of functions from the provincial administrations to the department. This matter has been under discussion for several years now and is only now being brought to finality. The solution being presented, however, is unacceptable to this side of the House. As a result of a legal technicality in the Constitution it has been necessary to divide White local authorities in the Republic into so-called single and multiple local authorities.

Single local authorities are authorities in those areas whose areas of jurisdiction have been declared solely White local authority areas. The multiple areas are those local authority areas in which the areas of other population groups are also situated within their areas of jurisdiction. Verwoerdburg is therefore a single area, whilst Pretoria is a multiple area.

In the Transvaal there are consequently 75 multiple areas, whilst 30 areas are single areas. In the case of single areas virtually all the functions carried out by the administrator can be transferred to the Minister of Local Government and Housing. In the case of the 75 multiple local authorities, however, there are a large number of functions which will still be vested in the administrator because they affect the other population groups and are therefore general affairs. Thus, for example, elections become a general affair and not an own affair.

The method now being adopted is tremendously complex. Single local authorities will virtually have to direct all their requests to the Minister, whilst the multiple local authorities will first have to determine whether the relevant function is vested in the administrator or in the Minister and whether their request should, in fact, be made to the relevant authority. The matter is complicated even further in that the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates do not want to take over the functions. In their case these functions are still vested in the administrator. If these people are so eager to govern, they should be compelled to accept their responsibilities at the third tier of government and stop their boycotting in various fields.

This complex distribution of functions can only lead to chaos, and I earnestly want to request the Government to introduce the necessary statutory amendment to sort out this muddle. As it is local authorities in our country are grappling with too many problems to still be saddled with this uncertainty. The hon the Minister must now begin to take a stand on the interference at the third tier of government. It must now stop.

The report mentions the proposed establishment of rural councils, for which the Regional Services Councils Act, 1985, makes provision. These councils will give the rural communities a channel of access on the regional services councils.

I want to extend a word of caution to the hon the Minister: These regional services councils, which fall under the control of the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, are going to make his department irrelevant, and this applies equally to the local authorities in their present form. This regional services council monster, which in essence is merely a duplication of local authorities, is perhaps the reason why two of the most senior MECs, entrusted with matters involving the regional services councils in the Transvaal, resigned. South Africa cannot afford these costly games. Those funds belong to the local authorities. Nor can the hon the Minister allow the four administrators to undermine his portfolio by issuing permits to people of colour at will, particularly not after elections.

In the report reference is also made to the trend in terms of which the private sector is intervening in the provision of housing to our aged. That is certainly a trend that should be encouraged, but I would nevertheless like to sound a serious word of caution. The private sector will only enter this market if there is a profit to be made from housing schemes. This will inevitably lead to the private sector providing for the needs of the economically affluent aged. These schemes are planned in such a way that flats and dwelling units cost between R80 000 and R200 000.

This will not, however, address the problem of the less affluent aged. Those needs will still have to be met by local authorities and utility companies. It is the duty of this House not only to create the necessary climate for that, but also to provide the necessary funds. What is more, the provision of facilities for the frail aged are of overriding importance. No company in the private sector can run such a facility and still make a profit. Utility companies and local authorities must therefore again be placed in a position, financially speaking, to provide this facility to each and every community.

What I have just said about the facilities for the frail aged applies equally to the provision of service centres.

I must express my regret at the fact that there has been such a long delay in reviewing the maximum cost limit for individual housing loans. The previous limit of R33 000, including the price of the plot, made it virtually impossible for an individual to build a house. That is why these applications dried up. The new building cost limit of R35 000, plus the cost of the plot which is not restricted, will breathe new life into this scheme for the provision of housing. I want to lodge a plea with the hon the Minister, however, to give serious consideration to the qualifying income limit of R1 200 per month. With the sharp rise in the cost of living I think it should be approximately R1 500 per month.

I also want to request the department to give wide publicity to the granting of aid introduced for first-time home buyers. It is becoming increasingly more difficult for young married couples to obtain a home of their own, and if these prospective home buyers are not given some specific encouragement, I foresee that we are heading for a propertyless White middle-class. The steps that have been taken reflect a serious and sincere effort to assist this group, but I notice that very few of our young people are aware of the savings and subsidy incentive measures.

I should also very much like to congratulate the hon the Minister and his department on their decision not to erect a new head office complex now. I think that money can be put to much better use for housing for the less affluent.

At the top of my list I initially wrote corruption, disinformation and double standards. I want to express my sympathy to the Government which has now become a paper party which cannot continue to govern without the disinformation supplied by television. The Whites demand action from the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Works and the Ministers’ Council of the House of Assembly. The hon the Minister is the responsible Minister, or does he approve of the fact that the NP newspapers and television are used to encourage and promote boycotts?

Does the hon the Minister approve of the blatant disinformation on television about the so-called resignation of the four town councillors from the Welkom town council, when in fact they merely resigned from the management committee? [Interjections.] The chairman of the management committee of the town council of Boksburg appears on television in his own council chamber, but without the benefit of sound. What an insult, what a scandalous situation! We ask the hon the Minister entrusted with Local Government and Housing to take action in the interests of the White local authorities he represents.

In conclusion I want to ask the hon the Minister how it was possible for a case to be made against the former member for East London City, Mr De Pontes, because in a front-page article in yesterday’s Sunday Times it is stated: “State probes into R2 million paid to De Pontes’ firm.” I should like an explanation from the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing about how it was possible, according to this report, for this money to have been provided by the Department of Manpower. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether it is correct that housing is dealt with by the Department of Manpower. Or is there some kind of cover-up? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I would like to address you on your ruling in respect of which I said that I thought that you were wrong and you made me apologise. I want to put the following facts before you.

Firstly, there has been a practice in Parliament that a report of a department is tabled and is made available to all hon members.

Secondly, the information that I have and which I can prove is that apparently that has not been done but what has been done now, is that certain hon members have been given a report and I understand, and I can prove it, that it is marked “Konsep: Nie vir publikasie”. In those circumstances the hon member for Middelburg—and I apologise for interrupting him and if I wasted any of his time because it was unintentional—apparently either has a report that is marked “Konsep: Nie vir publikasie” or he has a different report.

How can different hon members of Parliament be treated differently? How can one quote from a report which is marked “Konsep: Nie vir publikasie” because there is a practice that one cannot quote from these documents if they have not been tabled unless in other circumstances?

My submission to you is with respect that while I have to abide by your ruling—that is the practice of Parliament—I do not have to agree with it. I am also entitled to say that you are wrong and I apologised to you only because of the courtesy that I want to show you. I do not actually owe you an apology and I am not obliged to offer an apology. With great respect, I do not believe that you can conduct a debate where some hon members have a departmental report and others do not, where some hon members are not allowed to quote from the report because it says “Konsep: Nie vir publikasie” and others are. That cannot be in accordance with parliamentary practice.

I have checked with the Clerk of the Papers and he has no such report. The only report which I have is that for 1987. However, the hon member for Middelburg was quoting from a 1988 report. Such a situation cannot prevail in Parliament. With great respect to you, Sir, you should rule either that everyone is entitled to the reports or that nobody is entitled to them and that nobody is entitled to quote from them. However, one cannot quote from a report marked “Konsep: Nie vir publikasie”.

Order! I would like to express my appreciation for the courtesy of the hon member for Yeoville towards the Chair. Without commenting on the merits or otherwise of his argument, my ruling is that it is not for the Chair to rule on this matter. The hon member may be able, with a certain degree of justification, to take it up with the department. Alternatively he could respond to the argument of the hon member for Middelburg by saying that he was quoting from a report that does not exist. I find nothing in the Rules, however, in terms of which the hon member for Yeoville can justify a point of order and expect the Chair to rule on the matter.

Mr Chairman, I just want to tell the hon member for Yeoville the following with regard to this matter. When the date for the discussion of this Vote was set, I indicated that it would not be possible for me to table a printed report by that time. Normally this Vote comes under discussion in the second half of the session; in fact, last year it was on 25 May. I said at the time that a draft report should be submitted to the chief spokesmen of the various parties.

To whom did you give it?

According to my information a copy of the report was made available to the hon member for Pinelands, as well as to my party and to the CP. That is the document to which the chief spokesman of the CP referred. The chief spokesman of the PFP, as indicated to us, is the hon member for Pinelands. [Interjections.] The chief spokesmen on my side are the three executive members of the study group.

It was not the intention to inconvenience any hon member. I am sorry that the hon member for Yeoville did not receive it. I shall make a copy available with the greatest of pleasure. The debate will continue until tomorrow afternoon. The intention was to place information with regard to the department at the disposal of hon members so as to enable them to make meaningful preparations for this debate. There is consequently nothing sinister in this. It was a practical measure which we took in this regard. I quite understand the hon member’s position, and for that reason I say once again that as far as the department and I are concerned, we are sorry if any inconvenience has been experienced, but this was a practical arrangement which I made in good faith in order to enable hon members to deal with the matter here. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister whether the words “Konsep: Nie vir publikasie” appear on the front cover of the report?

Mr Chairman, I think this was done. I naturally have no problem with hon members debating it in this House. In my view this means that no one should publish its contents outside this House, but I have no problem with a debate being conducted on it in this House.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister whether the bringing forward of this date from May last year to March this year has anything to do with the possibility of an election in the near future? [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Port Elizabeth Central is being just a little wilful now. The hon member will understand that I should have liked to have held the debate later, but I should also like to be of assistance if we have to conduct this debate earlier. This is a convenient time from the point of view of the hon the Chief Whip of Parliament, who arranges the activities of Parliament. Hon members have agreed to this through their various Whips, and that is what is happening here this afternoon. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I thank the hon member for Middelburg for his contribution to the debate on this Vote. He gave a general review of the department’s activities, and I have no fault to find with that.

I hope that the question with regard to the report has now been cleared up. May I just hear from the hon member for Pinelands whether he received the draft report? He is nodding his head. It can therefore be placed on record that all parties in the House received access to the draft report.

In terms of the directives of the Constitution, the Department of Local Government and Housing has two basic objectives. The first of these is to fulfil a development function. The second is to fulfil a co-ordinating function.

The development function refers to the provision of capital in order to make welfare housing available. The co-ordinating function has to do with giving shape to own local authorities. Since the establishment of the department five years ago, remarkable progress has been made in achieving these objectives in terms of the Constitution. As far as welfare housing is concerned, an amount of R300 million has been made available over the past five years to provide for the needs of welfare housing. Despite what the hon member for Middelburg said, this side of the House cannot be accused of being unsympathetic towards the housing needs of senior citizens. Capital has been made available to welfare organisations and utility companies during the past five years for the establishment of 6 275 units. Measured against the current economic climate, this is a remarkable achievement.

This side of the House would like to place on record that we are greatly appreciative of what the hon the Minister and the department have done with regard to housing during the year under review, as well as the attempts to give shape to own local authorities.

We want to tell the hon the Minister and the department that we on this side of the House are pleased to accompany them on the path of housing in South Africa and that we shall lend them our unqualified support in order to give substance to own local authorities.

I now wish to refer to the ministerial representatives. The ministerial representatives form a very important link between the department and the social requirements in the various regions of the ministerial representatives. Likewise this side of the House would also like to place on record that we are appreciative of the work which the ministerial representatives are doing, and the results prove that they have a real empathy for the needs which exist in the various communities.

I now want to move on to another facet of the department’s activities, and refer to the field of the local authorities. A new South Africa is gradually taking shape. A theatre is being created in which all moderate South Africans are the actors. The most dramatic change has taken place in the local authority sphere in the past few years. We cannot turn a blind eye to the realities of South Africa. There are the realities of common interests between groups, and there is the reality of historical separateness between the various groups. Both these circumstances must be reflected in the third-tier structures of government.

There is only one message for alternative structures—in the revolutionary sense of the word—and that is elected government structures which deliver results within an orderly community.

If I may refer to the municipal elections of October last year, I want to say that there are two matters which indisputably emerged after the municipal elections. The first of these was that the revolution and the onslaught aimed at making South Africa ungovernable, had been checked. The second is that the CP suffered a decisive defeat in the municipal elections. The Official Opposition does not have a message for the municipal voter of South Africa.

Where did you get that story? Father Christmas? [Interjections.]

The spectre of Boksburg and Carletonville is going to return to haunt them.

We have one clear message for the voters of South Africa, and that is that the various communities in South Africa at local authority level do not require greater distance in order to realise their interests. The communities of South Africa require a greater understanding of one another, and it is the primary objective of this side of the House to create structures, at local authority level as well, to promote understanding between various communities and by so doing to serve the interests of each community.

Certain changes have taken place in the local authority sphere during the past few years which I think this House ought to take cognisance of. The first of these was the establishment of regional services councils. Regional services councils changed the face of the local authority structure dramatically. They have proved that joint decision-making can work and that communities can be supplied with capital and infrastructure by a body to which they can state their requirements.

Just as regional services councils and free settlement areas are a part of the South Africa reality, own local authorities and own group areas are also a reality in South Africa, and the Government is attempting to effect a balance and an equilibrium between these two realities. Aside from the regional services councils, regulations have also appeared in terms of section 12A of the Regional Services Councils Act, which makes possible the establishment of rural councils. In terms of the regulations that have been made, rural councils will be represented on regional services councils in order by so doing to address the needs in the rural areas as well.

There has also been a very important further development in the field of local authorities and that is the institution of local councils. Local councils provide for the increasing momentum among smaller local communities outside the area of jurisdiction of local authorities, towards greater independence. In this regard I am referring specifically to the area committees in the Transvaal and the smaller holiday communities on the Cape coast, such as Kommetjie, Melkbosstrand, Nature’s Valley, St Francis, Gouritz, Boggoms Bay, Infanta, Yzerfontein, Wilderness, Kleinbrakrivier, Jongensfontein and Witsand.

In order to provide for the greater independence and decision-making competence of these areas, the Local Councils Act was introduced. Regulations pertaining to these councils were made and appeared in the Government Gazette in December 1988. One may ask oneself what the aim of these local councils is. Their aim is the creation of a juristic person. They afford decision-making competence and provide that services may be rendered on an agency basis.

I note that there is a degree of expectation and excitement, particularly among the coastal communities, to apply for local council status. At this stage a word of cautious warning should be addressed to such communities to ensure what the regulations of the Act state, because this institution of local councils does not relate to certain benefits, but to certain obligations. These local communities must ensure that they can, in fact, comply with the obligations, as required in the regulations.

Reference has already been made to the transfer of functions to the Department of Local Government and Housing. The project team has identified over 150 functions which will be transferred to the department as from 1 April this year. That is only the first step in the identification of further local authority functions in order to give full effect to the expansion of own local authorities.

In the time at my disposal I wish to refer to a few of the functions which will be transferred to the department as from 1 April. In the province of the Transvaal there is the Local Authorities Road Ordinance, the Johannesburg Municipality Borrowing Powers Ordinance, the Local Government Ordinance 1939, and the Transvaal Board for the Development of Peri-urban Areas Ordinance, which have been entirely transferred to the department.

The Public Bodies Ordinance, 1958, the Commissions of Inquiry Ordinance, the Local Government Ordinances, the Local Authorities Rating Ordinance, the Local Authorities Capital Development Fund Ordinance and the Town-planning and Townships Ordinance, No 15 of 1986, are all examples which serve to indicate to the House that work is being done and that a concerted effort is being made to give substance to own local government bodies. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, with respect to the hon member for Bellville I would briefly like to return to the question of the report. Correctly so I received a copy on Friday. I regret that the hon member for Yeoville did not see the report, but my excuse for that is that I was not aware of being the only person in my party to be fortunate enough to actually receive one, hence the confusion on that issue.

My second point on the report has been somewhat defeated by what the hon the Minister said a short while ago. I was going to compliment his department on the fact that the report was very much a working document in its format and that it was a pleasant surprise to receive a document such as that rather than a glossy, far more expensive document, with which we tend to be inundated. I felt that it was a very workmanlike document and one for which the hon the Minister should be praised.

In South Africa local government has come into its own. No longer is it merely the provider of essential but often unglamourous services to its ratepayers. Today local government is at the forefront of the ideological divide within our country. It is the third or lowest tier of government, but it is the point of first contact between those who govern and the governed. It is at this level that a number of fundamental issues are being thrashed out.

Firstly, there has been a constant shuffling of services between own and general affairs and between the institutions responsible for providing those services. Much of this has been at the whim of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, who has conceptualised a web of interlocking institutions that defy understanding by anyone except those who are intimately involved.

Secondly, local authorities have to deal with the myriad of apartheid laws of this Government. Separate group areas, separate amenities, squatting, slum clearance and many more either fall within the responsibility of local government or directly impact on their day to day activities. Most of these laws are designed to preserve racial segregation, the most important constitutional issue of our time.

Thirdly, because of constant changes, those responsible for local government have the frustrating task of having to keep track of who is responsible for what, a daunting prospect requiring a deep understanding of Government constitutional tinkering. A local journalist, prior to last year’s municipal elections, diagramatically tried to represent local government responsibilities and the manner in which these link into provincial and central Government. We would be fooling ourselves if we were to think that the average voter has the remotest conception of the intricacies involved.

Fourthly, there is a lack of certainty regarding the implementation of some laws resulting in inconsistent application and confusion. The reason for this is ambivalence on the part of the Government which created these laws and then are critical when these laws are implemented. Clearly this Government is not enforcing the Group Areas Act, although it will not admit to this. The Police Force have been instructed not to arrest offenders against the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. Local authorities controlled by the CP are criticised for implementing apartheid laws on the Statute Book.

To say that confusion exists at local government level is an understatement. How are local authority elected representatives and officials expected to act? Current interpretation appears to be that if you are already practising racial discrimination, as in Pretoria or Somerset West, you may continue to do so. If, however, you decide to introduce apartheid in terms of existing laws, you are branded a racist. What clearer indication can there be of a government which has lost its way, which no longer has the strength of its convictions to legislate accordingly?

Returning to the question of responsibilities, the report tells us on page 10 that good progress has been made with the identification of own affairs functions for transfer to the various administrations for own affairs from 1 April 1989. The hon member for Bellville has made mention of this. [Interjections.] I am quoting from that report. The identification of further functions for assignment will continue in 1989.

1 April is less that two weeks away, and to the best of my knowledge—save for what the hon member for Bellville told us today—very few details have been published about precisely what is going to be transferred on 1 April. Furthermore, I have no doubt whatsoever that there exists duplication of staff and facilities and that a significant number of employees are currently underemployed due to the uncertainty of the situation. Page 11 of the same report states that a start has been made in preparing a manual which will provide clarity as to which functions will be dealt with by what authority. Not only must this be a mammoth task, but will it ever catch up and keep pace with the changes that are being made?

But the matter does not rest here. The Local Councils Act, 1987, was passed to give representation to local areas which are no longer represented on divisional councils or similar institutions. The report now tells us that rural councils are to be established to provide representation on regional services councils for a community or region that falls outside the area of jurisdiction of a local authority. Nor is this the final change. The Local Government Affairs Council Bill has now been tabled and will be dealt with in a house committee. I will not pre-empt that discussion but wish to briefly refer to the object of this Bill. Quoting from the memorandum it is:

Members of this council are to be appointed by the hon the Minister and not elected. Already there has been quite a lot of comment since the publication of this Bill. The Cape Town Chamber of Commerce has called on Government not to add further to the cost of bureaucracy and believes this new council to be untenable for the following reasons.

Firstly, because local constituents have no say in or control over services rendered at community level. Secondly, it provides for the perpetuation of a bureaucracy not subject to the disciplines of electoral representation. Thirdly, it runs counter to Government’s promise that the creation of regional services councils would not add to the level of bureaucracy in the country. Finally, it is contrary to the concept of privatisation whereby local authorities are being encouraged to contract with private enterprise to provide services rather than do it themselves. With these viewpoints I concur.

I believe we are creating a nightmare—an intricate web of Government institutions neither understood nor supported by the electorate and with only one consistent element namely to create separate institutions for the different race groups. The very foundation of this complex arrangement is separate group areas. Any departure from this and the whole structure starts to wobble like a highrise building perched on shaky foundations. Government’s concessions in terms of the Free Settlement Areas Act, have necessitated yet another local government institution to cater for a racially mixed area.

What an enormous change from the simple structures that existed prior to this new constitution—considerably fewer bodies to which representatives were elected and who were therefore directly responsible to their constituents. In their place we now have a structure which has expanded bureaucracy—I have no doubt—at considerable cost to the taxpayer.

In the time left to me I wish to make some brief comments on certain other matters contained in the report. Much good work has been done on housing for retired persons. Last year the Housing Development Schemes for Retired Persons Act was passed by Parliament. This Act protects the rights of the aged when dealing with private contractors, and is obviously very welcome. Then there is the loan scheme to secure the homes of White aged persons. The key purpose of this scheme is to keep the aged independent and part of the community for a longer period. We support this principle.

The attention of the department has correctly been focused on problems resulting from the general increase in interest rates on housing loans. Sales in execution are in no one’s interest and I wholeheartedly support the department’s appeal to financial institutions to accommodate as far as possible home owners who, as a result of circumstances beyond their control, are unable to meet their loan commitments.

I would ask the hon the Minister to clarify comments made on page 105 of the report dealing with the financing of local councils. With the demise of the divisional councils, deficits that occurred in local areas have now become the responsibility of this administration. It has therefore become necessary to find alternative sources of income to ensure the survival and development of activities involving local councils. I should like to know what alternative sources of income are being considered to make up this shortfall.

Finally, I wish to make an appeal. It is generally agreed that deregulation and the encouragement of the informal sector are important factors for economic growth. It is at the local government level where many of the regulations are being enforced. For deregulation to be effective we must call on local government to be ruthless in their deregulation processes. Failure in this regard will frustrate the one area in which we have prospects for real economic growth.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Pinelands raised a good many matters here, but today he again specifically placed on record here his opposition to the Group Areas Act. I should like to ask the hon member for Pinelands one thing. With all due deference I should also like to issue a challenge to him. After all, that hon member’s party has the majority of councillors in the municipality of Pinelands.

Yes.

Very well, if the hon member feels as strongly about the Group Areas Act as he has intimated, I should like to ask him whether he will not please ask the councillors and the municipality of Pinelands to accept a motion in which they request that Pinelands be declared a free settlement area, and then submit that request to the Free Settlement Board. [Interjections.] I should like the hon member to do this so that the people of Pinelands, whom he represents here, can know that. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, in this debate today I should like to express a few thoughts regarding the problem of the affordability of housing, as well as a few thoughts on related problems. One is justified in saying that the affordability of housing is the single greatest problem which is facing and will face a prospective home-owner or occupant. It is an accepted point of departure in every housing philosophy that every person needs a home or house the most at a time when his or her income is the lowest. This trend always manifests itself when one is either in the first flush of youth or in one’s twilight years.

Meaningful housing and a house for a young couple in an acceptable environment in which a family can be brought up remains a first priority, as does meaningful housing for the elderly, where in their old age they can enjoy their retirement with security and a good quality of life. However, these priorities for young and old are becoming more expensive by the day and more beyond the reach of an increasing number of younger and older people.

The Government of this country, as the champion of a competitive marketing system, believes in the normal marketing mechanisms of supply and demand. Price determination and rising interest rates are not always under the control of this Government or any future government, primarily because price increases and interest rate increases occur as a result of external factors such as rates of exchange and other related reasons.

Unfortunately price increases and unit costs in the building industry are rising steadily because a constant and continuous demand is being created primarily as a result of a social need—a social need which must be satisfied at all costs in order to guarantee stability and social order in a country.

Although it is the task of every citizen to provide housing for himself, affordability of housing remains an increasingly urgent problem which must receive attention. At present interest rates of building societies are at 18%, and in order to purchase a house costing R65 000, on the assumption that a buyer will get a 90% bond of R58 500, the monthly repayment will be R887 per month, of which the State will pay R196, in terms of the first-time home-owner’s subsidy. This leaves an amount of R691 per month which must be paid by the owner. In order to qualify for this bond, the couple’s joint income will have to be R2 764 per month.

In comparison with this it can be mentioned that 12 months ago a home loan could be obtained at 12,5%. This meant a monthly repayment of R510 per month, with a monthly income requirement of R2 040 for a house costing R65 000. This comparison brings one important fact to the fore: In order to buy the same house with the same mortgage bond 12 months later, the same person’s salary had to have risen by 35% in one year.

Another factor which must also be taken into account as regards this example is that building and service costs of land rose by approximately 22% between March 1988 and March 1989. This therefore means that the house which cost R65 000 a year ago, now costs R79 300. Consequently this house no longer qualifies for a first-time home-owner’s subsidy either, and if a person were to buy a house costing R79 300 and were to take out a 90% mortgage bond, his monthly repayment would be R1 082 per month, with a required income level of R4 330 per month.

Another alarming fact is the constant escalation in the cost of building materials. What is more certain materials are supplied and controlled by monopolistic groupings and this has a significant effect on the price of these materials.

In Die Burger of 16 March an article with the caption “Koop nou huis” was published. I am quoting from it:

As I have already mentioned, the housing need is not restricted to the young couple, but also affects the elderly. People are growing older, they are living longer, and it is expected that the number of elderly persons and their resultant housing needs will more than double in the next five decades.

This projection is based on the assumption that the housing distribution, as determined in 1985, will remain constant. At present 62,7% of people over the age of 75 years are living in houses. This percentage may decline sharply owing to financial and security considerations, in which case housing trends will start to differ considerably in practice.

One can expect with reasonable certainty that the number of elderly persons will increase by approximately 20% between 1985 and the year 2000 and that the corresponding increase between 1985 and the year 2035 will be 61%. Until such times as the process of population aging has stabilised, the State and the private sector will have to meet the demand for suitable housing for the aged to an increasing extent. If demographic trends are ignored the present shortage of housing for the aged will continue and a weakening in the housing circumstances of the aged may set in.

At present 423 old-age homes are being subsidised by the Department of Health Services and Welfare. The number of elderly persons being accommodated is 29 800. The operating subsidy for the 1988-89 financial year totalled R121,2 million and the expected amount for the 1989-90 financial year is R142,2 million. These amounts again prove what a tremendous obligation rests on the State in this regard in respect of housing.

Today I want with all due deference to make a suggestion, namely that the State should think about selling some of its accommodation for the aged on a time-sharing basis. This would mean that the elderly person would have the option, when renting his room or apartment in the old-age home, of paying an amount in advance which would ensure that he would acquire a right of occupation of that unit for the rest of his life. This gives the elderly person the assurance that there will be minimal or no cost increases in future and this gives the State or the developer the advantage that he receives a capital amount in advance which he can use for the further development or financing of the project. This amount will not be repayable on the death of the elderly person and therefore places no further financial obligation on the State or the developer.

It will be necessary to think of new concepts such as time-sharing schemes for housing for the aged, if we want to overcome this tremendous challenge in future.

Arising out of my statements and thoughts on price increases in the building industry, as well as the monopolistic tendencies, today I want with all due deference to address a request to the hon the Minister, namely that these problems and related problems be referred to a commission of inquiry. We must at all times promote the affordability of housing and we must constantly give attention to this problem. Only by doing this will we ensure that we never lose the housing race in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, I find the remark made by the hon member Mr D P de K van Gend to the hon member for Pinelands, viz that this hon member should have his area declared a free settlement area, rather ridiculous. I find it ridiculous, because if we understand the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs correctly, he said in any case that all discriminatory legislation should be abolished. That means the Group Areas Act is also going to be abolished and then the areas of that hon member and the hon member for Pinelands are going to become free settlement areas in any case. His remark was ironic, therefore, in view of what the NP has proposed through its hon Minister of Foreign Affairs.

I want to discuss whether or not this Government and the NP can still be trusted with regard to housing for Whites in White residential areas. I also want to ask whether White local authorities’ powers to make decisions in this connection are going to be ignored. I want to take the events concerning Windmill Park and Dawn Park as examples to indicate how White local authorities are going to be treated and dealt with by this Government and the NP in future, and also to prove that the Government and the NP, new leader and all, are leaving the Whites in the lurch.

During an interpellation debate we accused the Government of having promised the White voters in the Boksburg area before the municipal elections last year that Windmill Park would remain White and that no permits would be issued to Indians to live in Windmill Park. The Government denied that. In that case, what is at issue here now? I say that what is at issue is the credibility of both the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and the hon the Minister of National Education. In my opinion their credibility must be viewed with serious suspicion. I know that that is a serious allegation, but that is why I say we must give urgent consideration to what the Government has said and done. In the first place the Government told the voters what would happen to Windmill Park as a residential area. Secondly we had the question as to whether residential permits were to be issued to Indians in Windmill Park.

The hon the leader of the NP, in his capacity as leader of the NP in the Transvaal, informed the NP supporters what would happen to Windmill Park. What did he say? He said consensus had been reached on three things. In the first place Villa Liza would be declared an Indian residential area. That was an accomplished fact and would not change. In the second place he said Dawn Park was a White residential area and its status would not be reconsidered. In the third place Windmill Park was a White-controlled area, and that would not change. He also said that that was an accomplished fact.

When one pays attention to the terminology, it is clear, as far as these three areas are concerned, that the NP’s standpoint was that the status of these areas would not be changed and that there was no question of reconsidering this status. The hon the leader said this matter had been finalised. He said this was his decision and they were to accept it. He then went further, and this is the important part. He said Dawn Park and Windmill Park should be developed together as two viable White residential areas. What else did he say to the electorate? This was the present hon leader of the NP who said the following to the electorate.

The hon the leader-in-chief!

Yes, he is also the hon the leader-in-chief. In a circular the hon member for Germiston said the following with reference to a circular that he had dispatched:

What did that letter say? In the first place it said that Dawn Park was a White area which would remain White. This was before the election, but after 29 August, the date of this initial letter. In addition he said Windmill Park would remain a White-controlled area which was to be developed into a vital area together with Dawn Park. Apparently what applies to Dawn Park also applies to Windmill Park. Surely there can be no doubt about that. The final objective of both those areas was settled and was exactly the same. If one could say that no permits would be granted in Dawn Park and that this area would not change its status, that it was White and would stay White, exactly the same things applied to Windmill Park. Surely no one could have any doubt about that. No other interpretation of what the hon the Minister said is possible.

I say it is indisputable that no other status or development was contemplated or intended for the two areas in question, whether as an Indian residential area or as a possible free settlement area. There is nothing else for that area. That was what was presented to the electorate. [Interjections.]

The Government is trying to escape. In order to escape the dilemma of that undertaking, they are coming forward with certain subtle little arguments now. The hon the Deputy Minister, for example, said the Government had been unable to investigate the area as a free settlement area previously, because at that stage free settlement areas had not yet existed. Consequently he said that it had come forward with something de novo only after free settlement areas had been created. That is the subtle argument.

By saying that he wanted to imply that if the possibility of a free settlement area had existed when the statement was issued, he would in reality have told the electorate then that this area could perhaps be investigated as a free settlement area. I tell him that that is no argument; on the contrary, I shall go so far as to say it is a lie.

When the Government introduced this trilogy of Bills at the beginning of last year, they were determined that this legislation would be on the Statute Book before the end of the session, which initially was planned for June. So determined were they that we came back twice to try to get this legislation onto the Statute Book. At that very stage, when we were debating the Free Settlement Areas Bill here, the hon the Minister issued the statement. Consequently there can be no doubt that it was a coincidence that this happened almost simultaneously.

There is another reason, however—this is worst of all—why this argument does not hold good. That legislation had not even been passed when the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning mentioned a whole series of areas in September last year which were to be investigated as free settlement areas. If that was ever the idea, why did he not include Windmill Park in that list as well? Surely that is obvious. This was no obstacle to the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. He said they were going to investigate the areas.

This merely proves that there was no other intention with this statement. It proves my initial statement. The NP wanted to indicate through its leader that Windmill Park was White and would remain White. [Interjections.] This was an expedient argument that the hon the Minister put forward, and it simply does not hold water.

The problems of the hon the Minister, the hon the Deputy Minister and the Government originated the moment they allied themselves with the transgressors of the law. [Interjections.] What did the Government want to achieve with this action? I say the Government wanted to thwart the authority the town council of Boksburg has to decide to comply with the Act to the best of its ability. In effect the Government wanted to prevent the town council of Boksburg from implementing the policy of the NP. That is what the Government wanted to do. Nevertheless, they wanted to lay the blame on the CP. That was the whole intention. [Interjections.]

Let us take a look at the question of permits in this connection. What does the Government say about permits? Through these two hon Ministers whom I have mentioned, they deny that they undertook last year that no residential permits would be granted to Indians in Windmill Park. According to them the reference in the letter of 29 August referred only to the 200 new publications for permits. I want to say the following about this. Attempts are now being made to say that that argument was based on the fact that this would ostensibly bring about a change in the group or character of that area. That is also not a valid argument. Those permits do not refer only to the 200 new applications, but to every permit in that specific area. The hon the Minister did not even invoke that argument, because he said his rejection was based on another reason.

Look at what he said to the residents of Windmill Park. He told them that the Indians who had moved in there had done so without permits. Secondly he said that they would be prosecuted, and thirdly that the area was a White area which was to remain White, and that that was why the Act was to be intensified.

In the same letter they say in the end, and I quote:

Once again there was no doubt whatsoever that that was the situation and that there was no question of a problem in this connection.

I say that in reality this Government cannot be trusted even if it gives an assurance in writing, in black and white, let alone if it should give some other kind of assurance. We must evaluate every assurance this Government has given us in that light. One can no longer believe what they put in writing. It is not worth the paper on which it has been written.

Every one of our White town councils—I say this to each one—is running the risk of discovering, despite every assurance that has been given by this Government, that it is going to lose its White areas. If one cannot believe what they have put in writing, how can one ever believe them again? Nor can one believe them if they tell one that they are going to protect White and minority interests, because this is the most telling example of a case in which a government has simply broken its promise to the electorate and to the people of this country. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member will understand if I do not react to his argument. [Interjections.] I should like to introduce a more realistic, relevant and intelligent perspective on White housing. When we consider and plan White housing we must take thorough cognizance of a few facts.

The fact of the matter is that the White population growth, number of children and housing needs in South Africa are levelling off sharply. In shrill contrast there is an alarmingly strong growth-rate among the non-White population groups of our country—those population groups which constitute more than 80% of our total population.

As a result of this too rapid population growth, together with sanctions, disinvestment and boycotts, we are in fact in the process of becoming impoverished in real terms. At the same time there is obviously rapidly increasing pressure on our financial and other resources for far more education, health services, housing and community services for Blacks and other people of colour.

It is absolutely essential, in the interests of everyone, including those of the Whites, for the highest possible priority, attention, energy, knowledge and financial means to be given to those services for Blacks, because if we do not succeed with Black education, upliftment, health services and housing, we will not succeed with our population development programme either. Then we will literally become an impoverished banana republic. Then all of us, people of all colours, races, creeds, languages and cultures will live together impoverished, starving and miserable in our own banana republic.

Consequently, as far as the Whites are concerned we must do everything in our power at least to maintain existing standards. As regards people of colour the quality and extent of the existing services must be developed and improved tremendously. Confronted with these facts it is absolutely essential for the White population group to undertake a total replanning of our policy and our priorities, with regard to housing too. Our excessive desire and preference for new housing in new residential areas, which has existed for years and—I could probably say—for centuries, can no longer be satisfied.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule. Nowadays new White residential area development is frequently unrealistic and even undesirable. I think Windmill Park is a case in point. There is simply not enough money and land for housing in South Africa to utilise these incorrectly—to say nothing of waste.

We dare not allow our existing residential areas, communities, community life, congregations, churches and schools to deteriorate and stand empty and our children’s homes to be threatened because we mistakenly allow new residential areas to be built on new land and then move there. Such an approach and such a policy harbours the germ of self-destruction. For the sake of the Whites themselves, and for the sake of South Africa as a whole, we must utilise, preserve, build up, improve, renew and redevelop our existing residential areas as best we can. Emphasis must fall on this. This is our highest priority. Only if we comply with this can we think of other new horizons. When I talk about “other new horizons” I am say this specifically because the preservation, building up and renewal of our existing residential areas and schools as such, will literally and figuratively create new horizons and new challenges for us.

What does this mean in practice? Let me take hon members to the constituency of Langlaagte, to the areas of Homestead Park and Paarlshoop, with the Abraham Kriel children’s home as the focal point. Owing to the industrial areas, undermined land, large, open undeveloped areas, parks, roads and railway lines which encircle it, this is a secluded area which is only just big enough to maintain and support a community life, church and school.

This historic children’s home, the Abraham Kriel Afrikaner children’s home, the oldest and, if I may say so, the best in the whole of the Transvaal, forms the heart of that community. In its turn the community forms the milieu, the habitat in which this children’s home can flourish. This is how matters stand scientifically and it is also the Government’s policy. It has nothing to do with apartheid or racism or discrimination that a children’s home must be situated in the most suitable milieu. If one were for example, to locate this Abraham Kriel Afrikaner children’s home in the middle of the rich, millionaire’s suburb of Lower Houghton it would not suit the children, the children’s home or that community. It has nothing to do with colour as such. That is why I say this milieu and community must be preserved.

Now the children’s home and the community are being threatened, mainly from two quarters. Firstly there is the aging and the dilapidation of the neighbourhood and the associated fact that this children’s home consists of large units for example, which must be divided up into units for 10 or 12 children. This is threatening this children’s home and this community, and that is why I say that urban renewal and redevelopment, as well as structural changes to the children’s home are essential.

The community leaders have themselves established an organisation named “Aksie Bou Langlaagte” for this purpose. Wonderful support has been received from the town council, the department of the hon the Minister, the ministerial representative Mr Tom Gunning and others. Very valuable studies and planning have already been undertaken. I am now expressing my sincere thanks for this, but am also appealing to the hon the Minister and his department, as well as all the other departments, to continue strongly and positively with these urban renewal projects and the rebuilding of the children’s home.

This brings me to the second threat. I have already explained that the children’s home of necessity needs the existing milieu, ie a community which predominantly has a culture, religion, manners and customs in which these unfortunate Afrikaner children belong, feel at home and can flourish.

Consequently this community must of necessity retain its existing character. If limited numbers of people of another culture and religion or whatever were gradually to move in there, as has been happening over the years, this would not create a problem because that is what South Africa is like, but when significant numbers of these people suddenly move into this relatively small community the own community life is disrupted. Many of the present residents, who have the same cultural, spiritual and religious beliefs, move elsewhere and the survival of the children’s home is very seriously threatened.

What will it avail the hon the Minister and the State to spend millions of rands on urban renewal and the children’s home while the existing community has collapsed in any case owing to large-scale intrusion into this relatively small community, which the children’s home is so intimately dependent on? I am referring here to numbers totalling between 50 and 70, which are moving into a small community within a short period of time.

Hon members may ask why we do not simply allow the free-market mechanism and the capitalistic system of supply and demand to run its course. Why am I asking the department to help us? Let me explain. It is actually ironic that, mainly as a result of the policy of apartheid and the incorrect implementation of the Group Areas Act, a total distortion of the market in respect of housing and land has developed, in Johannesburg too.

On 4 June 1988 plots in an unproclaimed area adjoining Mayfair were offered for sale by public auction. The first plot was sold for R73 000. Chaos broke out and the auction had to be stopped. I was assured that those unproclaimed plots would be sold for more than R100 000 per plot. In the neighbouring White residential area of Mayfair West it is difficult to sell a good house with a well-developed plot and all facilities to a White for R60 000. There is clearly a total massive distortion of the market. [Interjections.]

This distortion must be rectified before one can allow the normal market mechanisms to run their course. However, there is no suggestion of normality at the moment. Sufficient land and housing which is centrally situated for all people of colour, as well as sufficient free settlement areas must be established to rectify this distortion. For that reason I am strongly in favour of the throwing open of the Mayfair area in my constituency and I am strongly in favour of privatisation.

Urban renewal by means of the private sector, by means of the upgrading of houses by financially stronger people who move into them is justifiably taking place on a large scale in Mayfair. People are moving into Mayfair and Hillbrow without deliberately breaking the law, because these are de facto open residential areas, and will also soon become de jure open areas. But as I have already said Mayfair West, Homestead Park, Paarlshoop and Langlaagte are a completely different story.

How does one deal with this problem? I would say we should handle it with good human relations, with respect for one another and with understanding for one another’s problems. However, when people suddenly stream into an area in large numbers, simply because they are rich and have money it is as if they are saying to my community: “To hell with your culture, your children’s home, your congregation and your community life. We have Mammon on our side. We will buy you out and break you down, without blinking an eye, that intimate and valuable cultural historic Abraham Kriel children’s home and the congregation of Langlaagte. We feel nothing for your cause. The fact that, in practice, we can buy freely in neighbouring Mayfair is of no importance.” To this we say that this must not happen. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I will not follow the subject that the hon member for Langlaagte debated even though I have a feeling for the Langlaagte area, having started my political career in what is actually a large portion of the hon member’s constituency. The first election that I was ever involved in was in Mayfair so perhaps I have an affinity for that area.

I started today by raising a point of order about the absence of a report. I have another complaint that is not a point of order—that is that the Auditor-General’s Report on Own Affairs is not available. It is remarkable that it is not available because the Auditor-General’s Report on General Affairs for the year 1988 is available but for the so-called Administration of the House of Assembly it is not available. I do not know why. I do not know what is happening here, something is going wrong. The importance of that report lies in the fact that according to the 1987 report there was considerable underspending in respect of housing. I would like to know—I could have seen this from the figures—whether that was perpetuated in 1988. I would also like to know what off-budget financing for housing there is available for the current year because not all the money that is used for housing is voted. There is off-budget money available for housing and I would like to know what that amount is.

I do not think this is the way in which the Administration of the House of Assembly should be run. I would like an explanation from someone as to where this Auditor-General’s report is and why there is a delay. I would also like to know what off-budget financing there was available last year, what was used, what was not used and I would like to know what is available for the forthcoming year.

This becomes important particularly in relation to the subject I want to deal with which is the question of the aged in South Africa and the housing needs of the aged, in particular the institutional needs of the aged seen against private enterprise provision for people who are retired. An enquiry took place which was reported on in 1987. We had the 1988 Act which to the best of my knowledge is not being implemented. One of the things that worries me very substantially is the degree of exploitation of elderly people who have housing needs which is taking place at the present moment. There are a whole variety of schemes which are being marketed, some of which are perfectly legitimate and proper but there are some which elderly people should be cautioned against going into. They are not sound business schemes from the point of view of the people who go into them and there are unfortunately many catches in them.

In many cases I believe that elderly people are being taken for a ride. The classic old time idea that one goes to an old person and says: “Give me all your money and I will provide you with accommodation and look after you for the rest of your life”, is now being refined by doing it in the way in which one provides some form of housing and taking away their resources. I am extremely concerned about some of the exploitive activities in respect of our aged people.

What I would like to commend to the hon the Minister—and he is a caring person; I know that of him—is that I would much rather have the institutions for the aged of our country run by the churches and charitable organisations than have them run by people who seek with a profit motive in many cases to exploit. I believe that the best institutions for the elderly people of South Africa that one gets are actually the ones that are run by religious and charitable people through their organisations. I would like to see that where we do give assistance, subsidies and help that that be substantially concentrated where the schemes are run by those sort of people.

There are many people in this world—I am not one of them—who are contemptuous of religious individuals; who think that religious individuals sometimes are hypocritical. In the whole world I have never seen an atheist run a leper colony. In the whole world I have never seen atheists who in fact really do charitable work and look after the underprivileged. It is inevitably the religious people who do it. Religious people are by their very nature and by the very things they are taught—irrespective of their particular religion—charitable people. When one puts religious people in charge of that kind of institution one does not find exploitation; one finds care and consideration. I believe that this is where we should be concentrating the assistance that we give in order to create institutions for the assistance of our aged people.

The second thing that I would like to raise is the question of what is going to happen to middleclass housing needs. There is a very substantial change—as I have tried to indicate in this House in a different context on another occasion—in respect of what is happening in the building society movement. The building society movement is becoming more profit oriented because of its corporate nature. It is going to become more and more concentrated in larger entities. We are going to have more and more mergers and, in the process, the maximisation of profits is going to be the main objective. The larger the loans one grants the lower the administration expenses, the fewer problems one has and the more money one actually makes out of it. In the process what is happening in South Africa is that we are developing into an era where we are going to find that our financial institutions are going to be less and less interested in the mortgages of a lower amount. They will be less and less interested in providing middle-class housing. We need to look at this carefully.

I would like to know from the hon the Minister what plans he has been involved in which, for example, will replace the situation which will come about when we do away with the tax-free shares and the partially tax-free shares. We have been told repeatedly a more direct form of subsidisation for those who need it most is going to be introduced. What will it be? How will we ensure that the middle class have the housing which they need? The middle class are in many ways the backbone of the community. They are the ones who provide most of the entrepreneurial skills. They are the ones on which we draw for most of our skills that we require in society.

That middle class has to be preserved. We have to draw more people into it. We have to make it stronger.

I ask what the Government is going to do when it does away with the tax-free and partially tax-free shares. What will this department do in relation to housing in that direction? I believe one cannot leave it without attention. I believe that is an urgent need, and I should like to hear from the hon the Minister in relation to this matter.

I should also like to ask him another question—a minor question. Interestingly enough, it actually encroaches on the area of the hon member for Langlaagte. I am historically interested in Octavia Hills. Octavia Hills flats were bought by the Government, if my memory serves me right, for about R2,5 million. Could the hon the Minister tell us what the future plans are in respect of Octavia Hills? What does the Government intend to do with it? Maybe the hon member for Langlaagte knows, but I think that is a matter on which I should like to obtain some further information from the hon the Minister.

Mr Chairman, referring to the hon member for Yeoville, I believe the hon the Minister will reply to all the queries and complaints raised by him. I will therefore not comment any further on his address, although I must say that in relation to exploitation of the aged he made some valid observations—most of them sad but true.

It is our task on this side of the House to proceed with orderly government. Therefore I should like to proceed with matters concerning the operation of the Department of Local Government, Housing and Works. I want to refer more specifically to the subject of Government villages.

As hon members probably know, Government villages were established after World War II. Old military barracks were converted into dwellings in order to accommodate soldiers returning home after the war. [Interjections.] Yes, just like Acacia Park! [Interjections.]

Those units were used to house people with small incomes—war pensioners, old-aged pensioners and disabled people. They were charged very reasonable rentals. [Interjections.] Yes, there are disabled persons in Acacia Park too. However, they sit on the opposite side of this House. [Interjections.]

Today there are seven Government villages in existence—in Benoni, Germiston, Randfontein, Vereeniging, Pietermaritzburg, East London and Port Elizabeth. The conditions in Government villages, socially as well as physically, have for some time been a cause for concern, not only to the department but also to the local authorities, the affected people, the public representatives—not least of all myself—and the community as a whole, since in many respects they are not conducive to healthy community life. In the circumstances, in order to improve the quality of life of the residents of Government villages, the hon the Minister realised that some positive action had to be taken.

*A Committee of the Development and Housing Board was appointed in terms of the Development and Housing Act to investigate the improvement of conditions in the Government villages of the RSA. As far as I know, an amount of over R5 million has already been budgeted.

As far as the Oribi Government village at Pietermaritzburg is concerned, the technical and social data have already been obtained. The private sector and welfare organisations concerned were also approached for their comments in this regard. Oribi is the largest White Government village in the RSA, with more than 3 000 residents, most of whom live in deplorable circumstances—much worse than the worst accommodation in Acacia Park. They are not on the gravy train either. [Interjections.]

In January this year the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing, together with the local MP’s, town councillors and the regional director of the department, made an inspection tour of the Oribi Government village. I thank the hon the Minister for his trouble. The report is expected to be released soon, after which the upgrading will proceed.

†The matters to be inquired into and reported on include the condition of buildings and infrastructure in Government villages, the acceptability of the town lay-outs and possible replanning, the residential densities, the community facilities—including shopping facilities—services rendered to the residents—including the maintenance of the structures and grounds—requirements for admission and selection of tenants, the rentals, the assimilation of Government villages into the community—some of them have been distanced from their communities—the transfer of Government villages to local authorities—of which I am not in favour—the possible sale of dwellings to tenants, the desirability of their continued existence and so forth.

I should like to comment particularly on the last two points before proceeding in general. In the case of Oribi Village at Pietermartizburg there are tenants who are second and even third generation citizens of that village.

This, come warts and all, is their town and they are proud of it. These good people have made it clear how proud they are of their modest dwellings and would like to be given the opportunity of purchasing and even upgrading their own homes. There is no question of Oribi Village disappearing as it is a vital part of the community, as are other Government villages in South Africa.

There are some tenants who cannot even afford the extremely low rental of R24 a month for a two-bedroomed bungalow, especially when one takes into account the high cost of electricity and other services levied by the local authority. There are many who have found it necessary to have their electricity supply disconnected and who make do with candles for lighting, and primus stoves for cooking and heating.

There are others, of course, who use the village as cheap accommodation when they could afford more, and this is where the selection criterion is so important. What is, however, apparent from my fairly close contact with the residents of Oribi Village is that they are desperate for the upgrading to commence. There are problems which exist at present such as streets being unnamed which makes it impossible for a doctor or an ambulance to find their destination speedily in the case of an emergency. Last week an ambulance arrived too late to save a friend of mine, after he had suffered a heart attack.

Security is lacking and young girls, the frail and elderly are easy prey for thugs and there have been many complaints. The roads are potholed and the roadside grass is often uncut.

I recently received a letter from a resident which I believe in a most compelling way sums up the dreams of many tenants, not only in Oribi but in other villages also. It reads something like this:

Not quite like at Acacia Park! [Interjections.]

I think this is quite a compelling letter.

In spite of the present circumstances in the villages, at the recent meeting with a group of pensioners who reside in Oribi their spokesman wished to convey a message to the Government. The message was that they were extremely grateful for the care and concern of this Government and were even prepared to make a contribution from their limited income and savings as a token of their appreciation.

I ask the hon the Minister and his department to proceed with upgrading plans without further delay. If there is any group that deserves attention, it is certainly this very special, but regrettably underprivileged community. [Interjections.]

In the limited time remaining I would like to refer briefly to the formula for the determination of rentals in respect of family homes financed through the Development and Housing Fund. The interpretation of local authorities that rentals be based upon present replacement costs has caused rentals to rise beyond affordable levels with the result that in certain areas—and Pietermaritzburg is one—the tenants have been forced to vacate. An unacceptable number of dwelling units are now vacant. I should like the hon the Minister’s assurance that the historical capital costs, as conveyed by the hon the Minister at a recent meeting at Pietermaritzburg, will be used in the application of the formula and that local authorities have been adequately informed.

While I understand that the hon the Minister has this high on the agenda, I do ask that, for the sake of the people concerned and to make sure that those units are soon occupied, this matter be brought to finality.

Mr Chairman, I am sure the hon member for Pietermaritzburg-South will pardon me if I do not react to what he said. He chiefly devoted his speech to Government villages, and as far as I am concerned that is not a controversial issue and I agree with him to a large extent.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank Mr Wessel Meyer, the director-general who is leaving our employ after a very long time, for his period of service to the department. I wish him a fine, lengthy and fruitful retirement. Mr Meyer is well-known to me because he was also private secretary to the former Prime Minister, Mr John Vorster, and did a great deal for the Nigel constituency.

The budget of R305,58 million is only R11,2 million more than the amount of R294,38 million for the previous financial year. If the effect of inflation over the past year is taken into consideration, it is very clear that there is no question of growth in this budget. If we also look at how this increase of R11,2 million is being employed, as is apparent from the explanatory memorandum, we note that R5,49 million is for the improvement of conditions of service, with a further R3,06 million for normal staff growth and operating expenditure, and in my opinion there will consequently be a large decrease this year with regard to the physical needs which the department will have to satisfy.

I find it extremely regrettable that less and less funds are being made available for White own affairs, as is again evident in the subsidy schemes that are so very necessary for the provision of housing. It is particularly regrettable since the Whites have to bear the heaviest tax burden.

The increase of R15,77 million in regard to development and housing aid is to be welcomed, but seen against the background of no real growth in the budget, owing to the reasons I have already mentioned, it will be difficult to succeed in satisfying the growing need for subsidised White housing.

I should like to refer to subsidised housing and mention this here today in lighter vein. Over the past few weeks there have been fairly lively discussions in certain circles in this House. Even the NP could not escape this, because one of the hon members of the NP did everything in his power to obtain the most subsidised home of all, ie Westbrooke.

The CP is watching this duel with interest, but would prefer to see no reckless action being taken nor the house summarily being taken away from someone. It must specifically not happen without the necessary period of notice being given to the present occupant. [Interjections.] The present occupant has never neglected to meet the conditions laid down for his occupation and will certainly fight for his rights tooth and nail. In that the Official Opposition will support him. We sound a cautionary note, however, and that is that if any undesirable squatting were to take place, the voters of South Africa would be called upon to remove that squatter. [Interjections.]

Hon members on this side of the House are glad that, since the debate on the motion dealing with housing, certain concessions have been made in regard to housing, particularly for first-time home buyers. In that debate it became very clearly apparent that first-time home buyers found it virtually impossible to obtain property with the available amount of R65 000, particularly owing to the conditions that it had to be a new house. The concession that existing houses could be purchased is regarded as an improvement to this scheme, and more young people will possibly make use of it.

Hon members on this side also want to say thank you for the concessions embodied in the own affairs legislation concerning the development of housing, concessions in terms of which loans are now being granted to the aged for the protection of their properties. Why these two concessions are only being made now, these shortcomings having been identified quite some time ago, beggars the imagination.

Meanwhile large numbers of young people have had to make use of other schemes in the private sector, and many of them have already had to relinquish their properties owing to high interest rates and the drastic increase in the monthly payments. Likewise numerous aged have been robbed or physically assaulted, and some have even lost their lives owing to the fact their properties were not adequately safeguarded.

My urgent request, in regard to first-time home buyers today, is that these young people who cannot make ends meet, and have even suffered serious financial losses in a period of their lives when they could least afford to do so, should not be excluded from the improved scheme. Strictly speaking this group of young people, if they were to apply once more and participate in a scheme, cannot be regarded as first-time home buyers, and the application would therefore fail. These young people were victims of a scheme which, for the past few years, has in no way been viable, something for which the present Government must assume full responsibility.

My appeal to the Government is not to throw these young people to the wolves. Accept them once more as first-time home buyers so that as such they can share in the privilege of allowing their families to have a roof over their heads in the form of a home of their own. If this Government still has any interest in the fate of the Whites in South Africa, it must take active steps to ensure that the youth of today, which will be the nation of tomorrow, are given an opportunity, in times of economic hardship, to be assisted in such a way that they can make ends meet.

Last year I referred to the East Rand utility company which had completed a housing project in Sharon Park in Nigel. At present 75 of the 83 houses are occupied, whilst eight have been vacated by previous occupants and simply abandoned. Some of these eight houses have already been badly damaged by vandals. The town council of Nigel does not know who is responsible for the houses or for their repair. If these houses could be repaired, the town council is of the opinion that they could again be sold. Owing to arrears in basic rates on the plots, the town council has made an offer to the trustees for the balance of the vacant plots in the relevant urban area since they are lying there unutilised.

My request to the hon the Minister is to ensure that the necessary control is exercised by the department to compel utility companies that accept projects to complete those projects within a fixed period. They must also accept responsibility for the necessary maintenance on houses which revert to the company. Projects—for example this one in Nigel—are definitely not always an example of thorough planning. Empty houses which have been badly damaged by vandals and unutilised, neglected plots are not an asset to any town.

I want to thank the hon the Minister for the undertaking—it was given during the debate on the motion on housing—that attention would be given to procedures in regard to housing for the aged and to expediting these long-drawn-out procedures. An application for funds was also recently submitted by the town council of Nigel for the erection of a service centre. The prompt and favourable consideration of this application by the hon the Minister’s department would be appreciated. The point I want to make today is that the department should display greater sensitivity and sympathy for the aged and for our young people. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to speak after the hon member for Nigel. Usually those people on that side of the House politicise every debate, but this time that hon member spoke quite a lot of sense this afternoon. [Interjections.] I want to agree with him that it is becoming ever more difficult to find funds for White housing.

We accept that here in South Africa our society is growing older. The man in the street today is growing older, not only as a result of improved medical care but also as a result of generally improved living conditions. Not long ago it was by way of exception that a person became 70 years or older. Today, here at the end of the 20th century, however, it is becoming the lot of the majority. During the 1985 census it was determined that there were already more than 386 000 White elderly people over the age of 65 years in the RSA. This is 8,4% of the total White population in our country. It is predicted that by the year 2020 this figure could rise to far over 858 000. Consequently it will then comprise 10% of the White population.

This is a phenomenal growth and if one thinks of the expenses we will have to incur to accommodate these people, it makes one wonder.

I think hon members will agree with me that we are justifiably proud of the provision the Government has already made in regard to welfare housing. I find it strange that there are still so many people who accept it as axiomatic that the Government should simply continue to care for all those with needs. Is society in our country sufficiently involved in our care of the aged?

†Are we a caring society or are most of us still inclined to say “I’m all right Jack” and let the Government look after the needy? As has already been mentioned this afternoon, however, there are many church and welfare organisations which are truly doing a great job. For this we salute them. I do think, however, that the public at large should become more informed and also more involved. South Africa has pro rata more elderly people in old age homes than any other Western country and it is becoming increasingly difficult for the Government to continue supplying old age homes for everyone.

*The ideal for retired people today is to remain independent and self-sufficient for as long as possible. I say that this is the ideal situation, because there are of course problems in regard not only to the personal safety aspect but also to the maintenance of their dwellings. The space and quality which elderly people want in their dwellings depends mainly on the standard of living they grew accustomed to in their productive years and which they must now be able to afford in their twilight years.

The board involved in housing development appointed a committee to investigate the entire question of welfare housing, which has to be financed from the Development and Housing Fund, and certain norms were laid down. Particular aspects were examined. In the first place let us take for example the need for the elderly to remain in the community, on an independent basis, for as long as possible. What is also important is the proven fact that such people remain active for longer and are better motivated and also healthier.

Consideration was also given to the role the private sector can and must play. The need for the individual to make the maximum contribution possible to his own accommodation and care after retirement was another aspect that was considered.

Today it is becoming increasingly important for people to make adequate provision for their old age and retirement during their working years. The public needs to be constantly informed about this, because the harsh reality, as I have already said, is that the Government is simply not able to meet all the financial housing needs of all our people in this country.

It must be made compulsory, when a person has made a pension contribution and changes his job, for the amount to be transferred to an alternative fund. Too many people simply draw the money and spend it, and when retirement day approaches, the amount on which they have to live is completely inadequate. Today, with constantly rising building costs and a high cost of living, it is becoming more and more difficult for the elderly person to maintain his dwelling. In countries such as Finland and the Netherlands the state has for some time now been giving its people financial assistance in order to maintain their homes.

I read an interesting report on aging houses in Great Britain, where the old people grew old with their houses. It was established there that 50% of the houses in which these people were living did not have internal toilets. Of those houses 56% had no baths or showers. When one reads this one thinks with great relief of the quality of housing which we provide for our elderly people in this country. Nevertheless there are old houses which could easily become dilapidated.

The safety of elderly people who live alone is a matter for concern, because these people are defenceless and frequently become the victims of assault. The provision our Government made last year for loans of R2 500 to elderly persons with an income of less than R1 000 per month, for the purpose of safeguarding their homes, is commendable.

The general tendency today is for the Government to make provision for service centres and places for the frail aged. As a person grows older he wants peace of mind. The fear of loneliness, the fear that they will become a nuisance and the fear of growing weaker, as well as the inability to continue their daily activities, are very real fears to those people. That is why service centres play such an important role in this connection. These are places where they can meet daily, where they can have a balanced meal and where their general state of health can be looked after.

Today various housing possibilities exist. We think for example of group housing where groups of eight elderly people can live together with a housekeeper or an attendant. These people are self-supporting, but need supportive care when it is necessary. These houses are subsidised by the Government and the people contribute according to their income.

Today we find that various Government departments are building retirement villages for their workers. Examples which come to mind are the SA Transport Services, the Post Office and Police that have already established excellent services for their people. We think of homes for the frail aged, subsidised by the Government and managed by church welfare organisations and utility companies.

Today an entirely new concept is beginning to take root in South Africa. This is the so-called life cycle, where houses or dwellings of various sizes are built on one site, and as one grows older, so one moves from a large house to a small house. This makes one feel that one is still part of the community and is not being rejected.

Today the granny flat is something that has come to stay. We are very grateful for the flexible regulations we now have on local government level so that a second dwelling or flat may be built on an already existing stand. Granny and grandpa can then look after the children when both parents are working away from home.

Today there are already 110 service centres subsidised by the State in which 29 000 elderly people are involved, as was also mentioned here this afternoon. In addition there are 423 old-age homes making provision for more than 28 000 people. What I find interesting is that only 15 000 of those 29 000 people are debilitated and in need of care.

As far as housing for the aged is concerned, there must be thorough planning. All organisations must be involved—church, welfare as well as local government, and the importance of community involvement cannot be overemphasised.

It is gratifying that the Development and Housing Board already grants loans to local governments, welfare organisations and utility housing companies for the construction and renovation of dwellings subject to certain conditions and norms. Welfare housing covers a wide spectrum and does not only include homes for the aged and service centres, but also housing for the handicapped, sheltered employment, rehabilitation centres, children’s homes, hostels for the blind and places of care.

The Department of Local Government, Housing and Works has an enormous task to fulfil. Only if one begins to look at everything that has been done does one realise to what an extent our people are being helped and supported in all areas. I want to thank and congratulate that hon Minister, and his entire department, on behalf of everyone here. I reject what those people say when they allege that our department and our Government never does anything for White housing.

The question we must ask ourselves is: Am I my brother’s keeper? The reply to this must be a resounding “yes”, because public involvement is important. The State cannot bear the burden alone.

Mr Chairman, it was pleasant to listen to the hon member for Edenvale. It is not often that I can say in this House that I have listened to a speech from that side of the House which is solid in content and with which I can mostly agree.

Clearly the hon member is speaking from a background of great expertise and experience and she touched on an issue which is of the greatest importance. The increasing age profile of our society in the next century is going to place a crippling financial burden on society unless we develop new ways of coping with the older people among us.

I think that some of the most depressing places I have been to in my life are certain old-age homes. They are places where one sees a loss of dignity, a level of loneliness and a sense of being cut off from active society, which is depressing. To the extent that we can develop new ways of accommodating the older members of our society other that to put them into old-age homes where their lives are unrewarding and they become a great burden on the State, to that extent I think we will be making an important contribution to the future. I support fully the idea of maximum possible flexibility within our town planning schemes and building regulations to provide for the granny-flat concept or for second dwelling elements within existing dwellings.

There has been some flexibility developed in recent years, but we must take this process further. Furthermore, I think that to the extent that we can find methods of financing the provision of these granny flats, or second dwelling units, within existing erven, to that extent will we be making a very important contribution. I am convinced that it will be much better to provide subsidised bonds to existing home-owners to provide for their ageing parents than to provide subsidised rooms in old-age homes. I think we need to look at that very seriously.

I would like to take this opportunity, however, to focus on something which affects my constituency and many other constituencies too, of course. It is the question of local councils and also the legislation which is pending on the council of local councils. Firstly, may I say that part of my constituency Constantia recently became the second local area in South Africa to obtain a local council under the Local Councils Act of 1987. The other place is Buffelsbaai.

Before I say anything more, I would like to place on record our thanks to the hon the Minister and senior officials in his department, particularly the Director, Mr Stopforth, for their assistance in bringing this about in my constituency. We certainly had friendly support and encouragement and all the assistance we required. I would also like to place on record that, in spite of the absolute power which the hon the Minister has in terms of the Act to appoint whomsoever he wishes to sit on these local councils, he played an absolutely straight bat in this regard and accepted the local nominations of local people, with one exception with which I had no problem. This, I think, is the correct spirit in which to proceed with the implementation of local councils around the country and for that I express my thanks to the hon the Minister.

However, there are a number of issues which arise from this development of local councils. It is interesting that the two that exist now are on the one hand Buffelsbaai, which is basically a holiday resort of very low population and almost no infrastructure and, on the other hand, Constantia where one has a rateable valuation and a rates base which put it among the top half dozen municipal areas of the Western Cape. Constantia is a significant and substantial area with ongoing local authority needs and requirements.

The regulations which were promulgated for local councils on 9 December 1988 do not, I believe, make adequate provision for the fact that these local councils are going to be created in areas with no infrastructure and hardly any population on the one hand, and areas which are knocking on the door of full municipal status on the other. For example, in terms of the existing regulations, these local councils are not empowered to provide services such as health, libraries, fire, traffic, roads and streets services. That is a very significant slice of the responsibilities affecting a local area which are not, in terms of the existing regulations, given to the local council to deal with.

I think this is a problem in the existing regulations which needs to be addressed. There should be flexibility so that those areas and councils which can handle responsibility to a full degree should be allowed to do so and other arrangements made for the smaller ones which are not capable of dealing with them. I do appeal for greater flexibility to be considered in the re-examination of the regulations.

That brings us to the issue of the establishment of the Council for Local Government Affairs, the proposal which is now before a house committee. The effect of this proposal is that we shall have the establishment of what amounts to a nationwide divisional council without elected members and under central Government control. This is a surprising development.

It seems to me to go against the general trend of Government policy, which is to decentralise authority as close as possible to the people in the areas where they live. What we have here is a proposal which recentralises local authority right back to Pretoria and places it under nominated people there. The executive arm of this council would then be vested in provincial organisations under a provincial chief executive.

There are certain matters which arise from this proposal and which I would like to touch on, but the overall principle that this seems to drive against the trend to decentralisation is the one which concerns me most of all. Let us look at some specifics as well. As regards the question of centralised appointments, it is one thing to have a procedure of appointments from the local area for the local area and in the local area, but when one has a council established for the whole of South Africa, then the method of appointment will end up being focused around the people in Pretoria, probably the officials rather than public representatives.

That is a matter of serious concern. I cannot imagine how the sensible appointment of public representative-type people can be made from the whole of South Africa to meet in a council in Pretoria. I cannot see how that will function in a democratic way.

Secondly, this council is given the power to undertake developments. This raises very serious problems in a given local area when a body in Pretoria can simply decide what development it may undertake in that area. That would be most offensive.

As regards the question of levying rates it has been suggested that this council would be entitled to levy rates in its own right over and above the rates which would be levied by the local council in each area. In other words the ratepayers of a local council area could be faced with two rates, one from the local council and one from Pretoria, and there would be no local representation in respect of the levy which was raised by the Pretoria body.

There is also the question of estimates of revenue and expenditure. It seems from my reading of the proposals that these would be prepared without the necessary reference to the local community.

There is also the question of the performing of agency services. The power to perform agency services on behalf of any other public institution is again in direct conflict with the stated policy to devolve power and authority to the local areas. The suggestion that the central body would be able to enter into contracts and be the owner of the roads and streets, raise loans and make bylaws, seems again to be in conflict with the devolution principle. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I know that the hon member for Constantia has to leave early and he has apologised to me. I would like to thank him for his kind words to me and the department this afternoon. He supported the hon member for Edenvale and I fully agree with his words of support to that hon member.

The whole question of the proposed Local Government Affairs Council Bill is on the Order Paper and has been referred to a committee of this House. I would suggest to the hon member that he provide the committee with his suggestions. I will also refer his speech to the chairman of this committee so that we can then have a full discussion on this Bill. I have taken note of the points which he has raised this afternoon and we will give it thought when we come to discussing this Bill.

The matter of the local councils of Buffelsbaai and Constantia and their viability etc form part of the investigations which one would normally carry out before instituting further local councils. This matter was therefore also well addressed by the hon member.

*In my replies today and tomorrow I shall be dealing with hon members’ participation in the debate. Before I proceed, I should just like to say that I have ascertained from the hon member for Port Elizabeth North that the highly esteemed councillor Mr Solly Rubin, in active life the mayor of the city of Port Elizabeth, died in Cape Town this morning. I should like to say, on our part, that from 1963 the gentleman made a major contribution to local government, particularly in Port Elizabeth. At his passing he was already in his second two-year term of office as mayor. Last year he received a singular honour when the city council granted him the freedom of the city in recognition of what he had done for Port Elizabeth. I should like to say that we in this House honour his memory and also convey our heartfelt wishes to his nearest and dearest. He is someone who, throughout his life, was a very staunch supporter of this side of the House, and it is with nothing but good wishes and appreciation that we remember him.

The hon member for Bellville, who is also chairman of the study group, made a very comprehensive speech here this afternoon about local government affairs and, in particular, gave an exposition of the disciplines in this field which already are and are becoming the responsibility of the department. I appreciate this, and at a later stage in the debate I shall be discussing local government matters more fully, and further functions in particular. Several hon members have referred to that aspect. Hon members opposite made negative references to whether, in fact, any progress had been made with the question of local government functions. I hope to make a more detailed exposition available to them.

†The hon member for Pinelands also referred to the question of the manual which was made mention of in the draft report which he has. I will also deal with that matter tomorrow afternoon.

*The hon member for Middelburg, who is the Official Opposition’s chief spokesman, expressed doubts, inter alia, about a large number of staff resignations. Without going into detail, I nevertheless want to tell the hon member that as far as people leaving the service are concerned, there were basically, of course, people who retired on pension at a certain stage. In the lower ranks there were quite a few resignations, and the main reason for that probably lies in good offers made to them by the private sector. The vacancies have been filled, and if the hon member were to go through the report, he would note that there was only an increase of two staff members during the period concerned. This also places a great premium on the services furnished by the department owing to the fact that, notwithstanding the extension of functions which are in the offing, we are basically dealing with the situation with the staff we have. I therefore think that the department actually deserves to be complimented.

Concerning the question of sufficient funds for housing, backlogs, etc, to which the hon member referred, I shall presently be making a further reference to that in my speech. I think there are one or two other matters, to which the hon member referred, which do not really belong here, but where necessary I shall also reply directly to the hon member.

†I have referred to the hon member for Pinelands, I would like to thank him for the positive remarks which he made towards the department and also in connection with the draft report he referred to. I support in that sense the hon member’s appeal for deregulation. As far as the comments that he hon member has made this afternoon are concerned, I think there is still much that can be done. What I also appreciate is the fact that the hon member has acknowleged that much is being done by the department for the retired person. The support the hon member has given is also very pleasant to received.

*I should like to refer to the speech made by the hon member Mr D P de K van Gend about a subject which is, in fact, a cause of serious concern to the Government and to everyone involved in housing. The hon member referred to the affordability of housing and, I think, displayed a very balanced approach to a matter that is causing serious problems for people who want to obtain housing. The hon member made the interesting proposal that consideration be given to making housing available to the aged on a time-share basis. I think it is worth looking into. I shall convey this matter, and his proposal, to the Housing Advisory Council.

I have also taken note of the hon member’s request for the appointment of a commission of inquiry into the question of the affordability of housing. I shall also convey this proposal of his to our Committee of Housing Ministers at the next meeting. I shall also have a submission made to the Housing Advisory Council so that we can determine with certainty what the proposals and aspects are which should be looked into.

In particular there are two aspects, involving the affordability of housing, which are creating obstacles. One is the financing aspect and the other is that of increases in building costs. During a recent debate in this House on the motion of the hon member for Bellville specific emphasis was also placed on both these aspects. I think it is necessary for us specifically to focus on this matter, and I shall therefore be dealing with this aspect at the next meeting of the Committee of Housing Ministers so that we can make some progress in this regard. At the time I informed the House that a working group, consisting of members of the South African Housing Advisory Council and the Committee of Housing Ministers, had been established, and I also asked that this report, as an initial contribution, should be expedited. I shall also keep hon members informed of the progress that is made.

The hon member for Langlaagte made a very fine speech about the Langlaagte area where the Abraham Kriel Children’s Home is situated. That is an area I know very well. I also spent my childhood in that area, as did the hon member for Yeoville, according to what he said this afternoon. I think the hon member knows that one will deal with this matter with a considerable measure of understanding, but also with compassion. I only very recently received the department’s report to which the hon member referred this afternoon. Shortly I shall personally go through the report with the hon member, and then we can jointly consider further proposals in this regard. I want to tell the hon member that we would like to deal with this matter satisfactorily, with an appreciation for the position of the people of that area.

Since the hon member referred to the Abraham Kriel Children’s Home, may I mention that in the past few years our department has made a considerable amount of money available for the establishment and upgrading of children’s homes. In the past three years a total of R29 million has been made available. We therefore also have a very good understanding of the position of children’s homes. They are a facility—I am sorry to have to say it—for which there is an increasing demand. There appear to be continually more requests for accommodation for children in need of care.

†I now want to reply to the matters which the hon member for Yeoville raised. During the course of my reply I will also address the situation of the interest subsidy scheme for first time homebuyers as well as the housing assistance scheme which he referred to.

*I do not see the hon member for Ermelo here. I assume that I shall be able to speak to the hon member on a later occasion. Actually the hon member was speaking to the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon the Deputy Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. With the discussion of the interpellation a short time ago, and also with Friday’s debate, I gained the impression, to some extent, that the CP was hurting somewhat as far as this subject was concerned, because they would not leave it alone. [Interjections.]

I now want to ask the hon member for Nigel—after all, it is well-known that he is a sympathetic member—whether it was the CP’s advice to the town council of Boksburg to cut off the electricity and water supply to those 10 Indian families.

Why are you asking that question?

Well, I should like to debate the issue with the hon member. After all, the hon member wants to debate it with me. [Interjections.] Surely it is not a complex question I am asking.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

The hon member for Losberg should resume his seat for the moment. [Interjections.]

The question I am asking is a very simple one. There were the 10 Indian families and there was a decision concerning their electricity and water supply.

I am now asking whether that was done on the advice of the CP. Was it done on the advice of the CP town council? [Interjections.] Is the hon member for Middelburg not chairman of the municipal committee …

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

No, the hon member should do himself a favour and calmly remain seated. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Brakpan should please do himself a favour and calmly remain in his seat and exercise some patience. He can enter the debate again at a later stage. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must now please give the hon the Minister an opportunity to continue with his reply.

Mr Chairman, I get the impression that those hon members are simply getting to their feet and asking questions as part of a rescue operation they think they can execute. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon the Minister, too, must really not provoke hon members so openly to disorderly conduct. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I must say that the unavoidable conclusion one draws is that with regard to that decision the town council of Boksburg acted on advice from the CP. [Interjections.] If that is not the case, they are welcome to deny it. Surely it is not all that complicated. [Interjections.]

Koos van der Merwe travels to Boksburg every day! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to tell the hon member for Pietermaritzburg South there is no doubt about it; the Oribi Government village will remain. We will upgrade that village. It is not going to disappear. We will continue to upgrade it.

*When we take note of the report of the committee of inquiry into matters concerning Government villages, which has also been finalised here, there is clearly no doubt that in this regard we shall be providing more funds. We shall do so with a view to ensuring that the poor are, in fact, also properly looked after. Recently, during the discussion here of a draft resolution on housing, I said that within the next five years we were going to spend R25,7 million on the Government villages. Meanwhile our maintenance of these villages will continue. In this regard hon members are free to consult the Budget itself.

From the ranks of the Official Opposition one repeatedly hears the statement that we are doing so little for the Whites; that it is never enough. Let me refer those hon members to the Budget itself. In the Budget 43% more finance than last year is being made available merely for the maintenance of the Government villages. Of course hon members opposite did not highlight that fact. Surely that is a considerable increase, apart from the fact that we are going to spend more than R25 million on these Government villages, specifically to tackle and alleviate the position and the residential conditions of those who are really poor. I previously made this statement, and I reiterate today: Although people are poor, they do not need to lead wretched lives. That is our approach on this side of the House, and hon members opposite will not throw us off our stride. We shall not leave the poor people in South Africa in the lurch. [Interjections.] Hon members may rest assured about that. Trying to attack us on this will simply be of no use to them whatsoever.

Is that what those assurances look like on paper? [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr Chairman, I am not clear about what the hon member for Nigel said. I shall read his Hansard. The hon member did remark that this 33,3% subsidy scheme was not viable. I shall nevertheless consult the hon member’s Hansard in order to furnish him with a reply. The hon member referred to the houses standing empty in Sharon Park. My information is that those houses belong to the estate of the liquidated East Rand Housing Utility Company. The responsibility for the maintenance and protection of those homes is that of the joint liquidators. That is where the onus lies. We in the department are doing everything in our power to wind up the estate.

I also thank the hon member for Edenvale for the speech he made here this afternoon about welfare housing. I also want to indicate her balanced view, in particular about where the duty of the individual and the State lies as far as the provision of housing is concerned. I am also glad the hon member referred to the so-called “granny flats”, a concept I believe could really relieve the housing crisis of our aged if it were implemented on an increasingly greater scale.

I also agree with the hon member that there should be a special degree of involvement on the part of our communities, and particularly in regard to our aged. Repeatedly there are also …

Your health!

My sincere thanks to the hon member for Brakpan.

That is not, of course, a toast to the NP! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I know the hon Chief Whip of the CP has always, in his heart of hearts, had a secret desire—as I have now drunk this water here—to propose a toast to the NP. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr Chairman, the hon member has just smiled so nicely. It has been a long time since the hon member has smiled as he has just done in this House! [Interjections.]

It is frequently said that too little is done about the question of housing for Whites and the provision of White housing in the various fields. I should like to convey a few pieces of information about this to our House.

Firstly, in order to make provision for adequate housing in the various fields it is necessary for one to have a basis to start from. Already a housing data bank, as we call it, has been established. It is a computerised system which has been in operation for quite some time now and on which, on a regular basis and in consultation and co-operation with local authorities, utility companies and welfare organisations, we determine the needs of people in their areas.

According to this housing data bank, at the moment there are, on a national basis, 35 139 Whites requiring accommodation in some or other form. This does not mean that all these people are without accommodation, but that at present they are not suitably housed or require better housing. People in the under-40 age group represent 19,24% of the total number of applicants, and those in the above-60 age group represent 71,15%. Of those above 60 years of age, 84% have an income of less than R850 per month. With this data at one’s disposal one can focus the funds one has on the existing needs.

There are certain shortcomings in the case of young people who want to buy a dwelling for the first time. If one looks at the statistics just furnished, there is no doubt about that. Serious attention is therefore still being given to a method of placing this housing within the reach of the group of young people or first-time home buyers in such a way that they maintain their independence and do not need to have recourse to further State aid.

The State, those of us in the Ministers’ Council and the Government, are endeavouring to achieve the ideal of bringing home-ownership within the reach of the largest possible section of the population. For that very reason, in the practical sense, we have granted assistance in the realisation of this home-ownership ideal. We must therefore give constant attention to renewing our schemes and make adjustments to them as circumstances dictate.

For those of us in the Ministers’ Council and the department, housing is a singular priority. The allegation that the Government is not addressing the housing needs of the Whites is not, and cannot be, reconcilable with the facts.

I am now going to refer to the 33,3% interest subsidy scheme for first-time home buyers. It is a scheme that was introduced to help prospective home-owners to make the payments on a new home. The subsidy is 33,3% of the interest portion of the payment on a loan at a financial institution, normally a building society, for a period of five years, and is distributed, as a bridging measure, over the first seven years of the loan. The subsidy paid on an amount not exceeding R40 000, providing the maximum building costs are R45 000 and the total costs R65 000, is R196 and a few cents per month. There are also possible exceptions, and in that case the scheme can, on merit, be increased to R75 000. In that case the construction costs and the cost of the plot may not exceed R75 000. If the configuration of the terrain is such that it would also have an effect on the construction costs, the amount can be increased by a further R5 000.

This scheme has evidenced dramatic growth since November 1985. From November 1985 to March 1986 an amount of R2,484 million was spent on this scheme. In the 1986-87 financial year an amount of R11,667 million was spent. In the 1987-88 financial year R19,028 million was spent on this. From 1 April 1988 to February 1989 an amount of R27,788 million was spent, with a participation rate of more than 17 000. At present we are paying every participant in this scheme approximately R200 per month.

Last year, during the discussion of my Vote and also subsequently, I received representations to the effect that the scheme should be extended to cover existing dwellings. If I now look back, the decision which was reflected in my announcement on 8 March, ie that we should also extend this scheme to cover purchasers of existing houses, was the correct one. I said at the time that we wanted to put this scheme into operation by 1 July 1989 and that specific administrative procedures and priorities now had to be refined, particularly owing to the fact that the decision had exceptional financial implications. At a later stage I shall be making more detailed announcements, as soon as we have decided on the finer details of the measures.

In connection with this specific subject I merely want to say that in the financial year now covered by the budget, R28,9 million is being allocated. If hon members were to look at last year, they would see that the amount was R14,9 million. In normal terms this is an increase of 93% which is now being voted in this financial year for this housing subsidy.

There is also a 3% home-owners’ saving scheme in terms of which our department pays an additional 3% up to a maximum amount of R20 000 when someone saves this money over a period of 10 years. In the 1986-87 financial year we contributed R256 966 to the investments of those who had savings accounts. Last year we contributed R273 125, and in the past financial year, up to 31 January 1989, an amount of R196 000 was contributed.

There is also a 90% loan scheme in terms of which we offer a maximum amount of R29 700 to a prospective home owner whose income does not exceed R800 per month. These loans, which are not large amounts, are also intended for the building or purchasing of new dwellings with an overall cost of approximately R33 000. It is a pleasure for me to say, in this regard, that the Minister entrusted with housing recently approved an increase of the loan amount to R35 000 and the income level from R800 per month to R1 200 per month. This decision has not yet been implemented, pending a decision on the possible extension of this 90% loan scheme to cover existing housing stock. I sincerely hope it will be possible to extend this 90% loan scheme to the purchasers of existing homes. Whenever I speak about dwellings, I am including flats which can be purchased by way of sectional title or against some other form of security.

We also administer a home improvement scheme in terms of which a maximum amount of R5 000 can be borrowed, with a repayment period of 10 years. The purpose of this is to get owners of dwellings, in a residential area which is becoming dilapidated, involved in the renewal of their properties. In this way one can also make a contribution. The department and the Development and Housing Board are at present also giving attention to bringing about possible increases in this scheme. By making a contribution on this basis, pride in the area can be cultivated, so that upliftment can also take place in the area concerned.

On 1 July 1983 a sales campaign was launched. At that stage there were 10 825 saleable White dwellings which had not yet been sold. From that time, until 1 January 1989, 3 907 of these dwellings were sold. An important point I want to make is that of the total number of saleable dwellings available for Whites since the construction of these houses with State funds in 1920, 97% have already been sold to Whites.

The conditions attaching to the sales campaign were adapted for the even greater promotion of home-ownership, so that a total reduction of up to 65% on the selling price of a dwelling can be granted on the grounds of structural deficiencies and the general condition of the dwelling. If a tenant were to decide to purchase the dwelling unit any arrears in interest and capital redemption is added to the loan amount.

In deserving cases the local authorities could, at their own discretion, agree to the transfer costs and other related costs being added to the loan amount when a dwelling unit is purchased. Apart from these special concessions, further concessions have also been made in the sales campaign, ie a 25% reduction for cash purchases. A person who can obtain a loan also qualifies for the reduction, and then there is a further 5% reduction to a purchaser who has erected a dwelling with the aid of National Housing funds and leased the place for five years or longer.

I merely want to touch upon a few aspects involving welfare housing. The hon member for Edenvale also referred to that, and it is important. The fact is simply—and we fully realise this—that the aged must find suitable housing, because in the majority of cases their housing progressively becomes the focal point of their activities. South Africa is the Western country with the most elderly people housed in institutions pro rata to its population. This fact requires millions of rand to be made available annually.

We in the Ministers’ Council judged it to be important that all the facets of housing for the aged be examined, also aspects involving facilities and their security. Arising out of that decision the Housing Development Schemes for Retired Persons Act was passed, and earlier this year an amending Act was also piloted through Parliament so that this measure could also be placed on the Statute Book. The hon member for Yeoville also specifically referred to that, and I trust that this legislation will also soon be given effect in practice.

I now come to an important aspect, also in the vein of what is frequently said about our doing far too little for the Whites, and about that I merely want to say that since 1984, when the new constitutional dispensation came into operation, our department has spent R479,977 million on housing for the Whites. More than R273 million of the above-mentioned amount—ie approximately 70%—was spent on housing for the aged.

I agree with the hon member for Edenvale that the aged should remain a part of the community for as long as possible, and that is why, in the previous year, we established a loan scheme for the safeguarding of the homes of the aged, a scheme in terms of which a loan of R2 500 could be obtained by those with an income of less than R1 000 per month. This amount used to be R2 000, but was recently increased to R2 500. The security requirement, which was initially a bond, is no longer necessary in terms of the latest piece of legislation passed last week.

†I would now like to refer to the Committee of Enquiry into Housing for Retired Persons under the chairmanship of Mr Boet Van Straaten, and I would like to refer to certain recommendations which they made and which include the application of a means test in order to determine the area’s responsibility of the Administration: House of Assembly and the private sector.

This means that persons who comply with the qualifying requirements may be provided with housing in a project supported by the Government whereas those who do not qualify, should rely primarily on the private sector to obtain suitable housing accommodation, whilst their needs for services may be met from a Government supported service centre to which no means test will apply.

This committee also recommended the introduction of a new scheme in addition to the existing schemes in terms of which 50% of the capital cost of an approved project is contributed on a voluntary basis by the prospective purchaser of occupation rights in such a project whilst the balance is financed by way of a loan from the Development and Housing Fund.

The principle of the sale of occupation rights has also been extended to both existing and new projects financed in terms of the existing scheme inasmuch as the committee recommended that 30% of the units in such projects be offered for sale.

*What is more, the policy of making service centres available with a view to meeting the needs of the aged, regardless of income, has already been implemented as far as possible. There is a great need to provide facilities for our frail aged, and great expense is involved in this. This committee has therefore also proposed that bridging capital be made available by the State in the form of loans to private developers. At present I am giving serious consideration to this proposal in an effort to see whether the situation can be alleviated.

In this connection I want to say that it was a privilege for this department to have been able to provide accommodation over the past three years by way of the financial contributions granted to 7 272 aged. This amounts to an average of 2 424 aged per year.

At present there are approximately 139 welfare projects—with, according to calculations, a value of R185 million—for which the need has been proved and to which we soon hope to give consideration on a priority basis. Naturally so many projects cannot be financed simultaneously. National priorities have been determined, and my colleague, the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare, and I are now engaging in a final round of discussions to approve this development and the provision of funds.

In regard to this subject let me say that the financing we are making available for the establishment of welfare housing is still being made available at the customary subsidised interest rate of 1%, and this is what is being made available to our welfare organisations for housing for the aged, whether it be flat units for frail aged or service centres, etc.

In deserving cases the aged are even permitted to rent dwelling units in family housing projects erected by local authorities with the aid of State funds, and to do so at the same rentals applicable in homes for the aged.

In this connection I want to conclude by saying that the aged who receive an income of up to R300 per month, or R600 in the case of an aged married couple, only pay 5% of their income in rent, this being interest and redemption in regard to the loan with which the accommodation was erected.

The maximum rent payable is equal to an interest and redemption payment on the loan amount at a rate of 1% over a redemption period of 30 years. Those aged earning more than R300 per month pay, apart from the 5% of their income, an additional amount in rent equal to 25% of the amount of their income in excess of R300, subject to a maximum rent.

Through this subsidised contribution the department therefore also plays a special role in making accommodation available to our aged. Those aged with an income of R300 per month, in respect of which such a subsidy is therefore paid, only pay R15 per month plus the operating expenditure for such a dwelling unit. If such a subsidy were not paid, the aged would, comparatively speaking, be paying R302 per month plus operating expenditure for the same dwelling unit. This is a difference of R287 which is paid by the Development and Housing Fund. This is indeed an exceptional contribution to the accommodation of our aged.

Tomorrow, after other hon members have spoken, I should again like to have an opportunity to speak. [Interjections.]

Debate interrupted.

Mr Chairman, I should like to express my thanks to everyone who took part in the debate on the Budget.

†I also wish to thank hon members for a warm welcome back to Parliament after my recent illness. I want to thank those from all three Houses who sent cards, telegrams and bouquets during my illness.

*Although this may seem a bit late in the day, I want to convey my sincere congratulations to our new Deputy Ministers, Messrs Richards and Williams. There is an English proverb which reads: “Good wine needs no bush”.

†I am sure these two gentlemen need no introduction to this House, especially to hon members in the Opposition.

*The hon the Deputy Minister of the Budget has already replied to most of the speakers, and consequently I shall touch on only certain aspects. In his reply the hon the Deputy Minister certainly handed out blows. It is a great pity, however, that Die Burger’s reporter was either not here or had plugs in his ears when this happened, because only certain hon members were quoted in Saturday’s newspaper; according to him the others seemed not to have been here.

The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition accepted the Budget and said his party would not oppose the Bill. I want to thank him for this; it is very wise of him to support us. He will support us in many other things too. I want to say, “Well done.”

The hon nominated member Mr Douw and various other speakers wanted to know how much money would be available for housing purposes. An amount of R52 million has been earmarked as the National Housing Fund’s net addition to capital. A conservative estimate with regard to reflux of capital and interest earnings of R130 million must be added to this allocation. Consequently approximately R182 million is available for housing purposes, and not only the amount of R52 million which is to be allocated additional to the capital. It is possible for the amortisation and interest earnings to be higher than the estimate of R130 million, in which case more funds will be available for housing. The relevant Minister will take the matter further during the discussion of his Vote.

†I now come to the hon member for Bishop Lavis. That hon member discussed last year’s Budget at large. To realise only in 1989 what was said in 1988, is certainly not to the credit of that hon member, nor to that of his party.

*The hon member also referred to earlier speculation that teachers were going to be dismissed. Although my colleague, the hon the Deputy Minister of the Budget, has already referred to this, I want to make the matter very clear once and for all. There has not been nor is there any question of dismissing teaching staff. This kind of suspicion-mongering and cheap politicking does not benefit anyone in this country. The allegation is untrue, and therefore the Official Opposition are simply making fools of themselves, whereas the teaching profession is being alarmed unnecessarily.

The true facts are that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture pointed out that the Department of Education and Culture was heading for excess expenditure in the 1988-89 financial year. He singled out various alternatives as measures to prevent such overspending. Additional funds had to be found, and if that was not possible, drastic steps would be necessary. One such step would be the dismissal of 2 400 teachers. The Official Opposition was either absent during the discussion of the 1989-90 additional appropriation, or they are purposely misleading the teachers for reasons of cheap politics. I think enough has been said about this matter.

The hon member also referred to the opening of tenders for transport schemes. With regard to this aspect, I want to inform the hon member as follows. According to the conditions and procedures of the State Tender Board, the names of tenderers can be read out if a member of the public so requires. This procedure should be applicable at all offices. In terms of internal regulations, certain offices also make the name of the lowest tenderer known. Prices are never mentioned, however.

The hon member for Riversdal referred to the proposal I made in my speech that my hon colleagues and I should see whether we cannot increase tariffs in order to generate more own revenue. I want to assure him that the intention is not to increase tariffs on all services. If it is at all possible to increase tariffs, we shall approach the matter with great circumspection in order to prevent tariff increases from being to the detriment of the poorer section of our community. Some of our people can afford higher tariffs, however, and we can use this higher income to assist the poorer section of our community.

I would like everyone to remember that upliftment is the watchword of the LP. We want to teach our own people to make a contribution to the economy of this country. We do not want our people to think, because we are fighting for them here, that we want them always to stand begging. We want to teach our people that we must make our contribution at all times.

With reference to the request of the hon member for Genadendal that accommodation bursaries should be granted again when children have failed, I must point out that they are bound by a contract. Any request for a relaxation of the conditions must be addressed to the relevant department in writing. I can merely mention that these conditions apply in respect of all population groups.

The answer to the hon member’s question as to whether he is also a public servant—he was teasing me with this—is no. He was not appointed in terms of the Public Service Act. The hon member also proposed that a regional office be opened at Worcester in order to improve matters there. The fact is, however, that there is an insufficient workload to justify having a regional office there.

In reply to the hon member’s question about the number of contracts that have been allocated to White and non-White contractors for the transport of schoolchildren, the statistics are as follows. In total the division is as follows. Whites have contracts for 87 schemes. Non-Whites or Coloureds have contracts for 289 schemes. The position in Worcester is as follows. Whites have 20 schemes and Coloureds 54.

The hon member for Robertson is smiling. I shall smile with him. [Interjections.] In his opinion there is a screw loose when tenders are allocated to the Klein Diamant bus service, which is a White institution, in preference to the tenders of two Coloureds. I want to tell him that tenders are allocated according to regulations, which provide that the tender has to be allocated to the lowest tenderer. I want to give the House the assurance, however, that the Ministers’ Council is just as dissatisfied as the hon member. The Ministers’ Council is arranging a meeting with the State Tender Board in order to clear up such undesirable situations once and for all. [Interjections.]

The importing of tenderers, which the hon member also referred to, is just as much of an issue as far as the Ministers’ Council is concerned. The hon member rightly said that local labour should be used, because cheap labour destroys our people completely. I can assure hon members that the Ministers’ Council is investigating these matters. When we are in agreement as in this case, affirmative action is kept in mind and implemented wherever possible.

The hon member for Rawsonville referred to senior security personnel who abuse their positions and exceed their authority. I want to make it clear today that such cases must be reported to my department, the Department of the Budget and Auxiliary Services, without delay. If it emerges that there are grounds for such allegations, action will be taken against the official or officials in question. The hon member will agree, however, that one cannot take action against officials merely on the basis of allegations.

The hon member for Klipspruit West questioned the conduct of certain members of staff in the Johannesburg regional office. The complaints must be made in writing, however, so that they can be investigated and the official can have an opportunity to reply to these complaints in terms of the audi alteram partem rule. Only then can action be taken against the official.

I want to agree with the hon member for Hawston that it is not possible for a hostel father to keep an eye on students 24 hours per day. I want to assure him, however, that it is not the policy of the Ministers’ Council or the Administration that CS educators—as he mentioned in his speech—should be the hostel fathers.

His request that security guards be appointed will not resolve the problem either. Security guards are appointed to protect the property of the Government, not to baby-sit students. I hope that many teachers will take some notice of what I am saying now. Strict action by the institutions in question against lawless students will cut down on this kind of action.

The assertion made by the hon member for Reigerpark that the increase of 17% in the budgeted amount for 1989 and 1990 in comparison with the appropriation for this year is not significant, is incomprehensible. [Interjections.] It is true that the inflation rate has to be deducted in order to determine the real growth. [Interjections.] That is only 13%. We keep inflation in mind every day. At present it is 13%. There must be a comparative mechanism in order to determine increases, however, and this mechanism applies to all organisations. It is interesting that the central Government, viz general affairs, shows an increase of 18% before inflation has been taken into account. Our increase is therefore on almost the same level as that of general affairs.

I want to convey my sincere thanks to the Director-General, Mr P D McEnery, the acting Chief Director of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services, Mr D Hattingh, the Director of the Treasury, Mr W Kelly, the Director of Finance, Mr F H van der Merwe, the Deputy Treasurer, Mr W van Graan and all their staff. I also want to convey my sincere thanks to the hon the Deputy Minister for the enormous contribution the hon the Deputy Minister of the Budget has already made to this debate, and lastly, I wish to thank the staff of my own office.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a first time.

Consideration of Votes

Debate on Vote No 3—“Local Government, Housing and Agriculture”:

Order! Before I call upon the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing, I want to mention that I have been officially informed that the hon member for Border and the hon member for Outeniqua are back with the LP. [Interjections.] I take pleasure in calling upon the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing.

Mr Chairman, now that the hon the Minister has handed me a bouquet I also want to congratulate our two new Deputy Ministers, that is the hon the Deputy Minister of Education and Culture and the Deputy Minister of the Budget. I also want to congratulate my colleague, the hon the Minister of the Budget, that he is the Minister of Auxiliary Services and Agriculture now too. I want to wish him everything of the best in his position. I must say that I am grateful for this as I can now devote my entire attention to local government and housing.

†Mr Chairman, I believe that an urgent breakthrough in the process of constitutional change, especially as far as local government is concerned, is needed in this country. The present system is causing frustration at a level where this country cannot afford it to happen.

I know hon members will accuse me of repeating those phrases that are very dear to me in stating the need for constitutional change. They must forgive me if I repeat what I have often said in this House on previous occasions.

In recent months there has been a growing awareness of the need for a reconsideration of the major issues confronting South Africa. There has been a return to the political issues as a major topic for general discussion. All parties in South Africa have decided that we cannot continue as we have in the past. The old order is disappearing and a new order is taking its place. We as leaders on the terrain of local government cannot stand aside. We have accepted the responsibility as representatives of the community. They have the right to expect guidance from us. We voluntarily stood on election platforms and every elected leader has a responsibility towards those who have chosen him. The positions which we as leaders occupy belong to the community. Those positions are their property.

*The seat which I occupy belongs to the community out there. They can give it back to me again or they can take it away.

†To a certain extent public leaders become public property, and therefore our actions should be such that we shall always enjoy the respect of the community. We have seen what happens to leaders who do not maintain ethics and moral standards in the execution of authority.

A climate of expectation has now been created in South Africa. People are now waiting for the goods to be delivered. Our communities are demanding more and more concerning their daily needs. The onus now rests heavily on the authorities not only to talk about change, but to undertake an effective programme of action for change so that meaningful change can take place. It is in this light that the debate about this department must be considered.

Our leadership and local government must be effective and purposeful. We must draw attention from the public by solving our people’s problems. It is often said in English: “It is a true saying that analysis often leads to paralysis.”

The Government has to understand that we can only negotiate successfully with people who have clear goals. Of course I am referring to the central Government of this country. We know where we are heading. It is quite clear what our eventual goal is. We may differ about the means to reach that goal, but we all know what we want in South Africa. It is difficult to travel with somebody who has no idea of direction. A true analysis will lead to meaningful action. We, having been elected to serve the interests of the people, should therefore solemnly declare that we shall individually and collectively do all in our power to work towards the achievement of the following objectives:

Firstly, we wish to improve the quality of life of the people whose interests we serve, with particular reference to their housing, transport, education, health, security and recreation. This is what Government is all about.

As far as our community is concerned, we wish to help give them purpose and hope in their lives, to help them equip themselves for the demands of life, to help them achieve and realise their reasonable objectives and hopes, to help them improve the quality of their present and future life by the provision of housing, educational and recreational facilities, to engender among them the spirit of community awareness, as well as that of self-help. These are important ideas. It is of no use just talking about the provision of services. We must build a community.

Secondly we must encourage by all possible means a spirit of entrepreneurship and economic self-help—job creation rather than mere job seeking—and to help make the people aware that only imagination, initiative and hard work create progress and prosperity.

Thirdly, we should establish good communication and a climate of mutual respect with all our constituents, irrespective of their political persuasion.

Fourthly, we should adhere to a strict and exemplary code of personal conduct and thereby uphold the dignity and integrity of the public office we sought and to which we were elected by our people.

It is at local government level that the interests of all communities are tied together very closely on a day-to-day basis. This is the real government in South Africa.

It is on this level that we have to find each other and solve problems. It is a pity that co-operation at local government level is not always that good and that the upliftment process in many cases is being hampered by conflict at local government level. There are so many cases where relations between Management Committees and local authorities, or between MPs and local authorities, or even between MPs and Management Committees have turned sour and then it is expected of me or the department to solve the problem and to facilitate development. Of course there are local authorities who are not really interested in our problems. However, I am sure that all differences can be solved if we set the example with the right attitude. Instead of taking up positions right from the word go, we should put the options on the table and try to find consensus. Last year I said to hon members that an attitude is the mood of one’s own mind. One can go into a meeting with a negative or a positive attitude. One determines one’s own attitude. The facts will be placed on the table, but how one deals with those facts depends upon one’s personal attitude. This is also the level on which any development actions must be executed; development which is of the utmost importance not only to counter poverty but also to facilitate the elimination of the vast differences in development levels of the various communities. This process is critical for the finding of lasting solutions at constitutional level. At the local government constitutional level we should adopt co-operative strategies and not competitive strategies. People are actually competing with one another at local government level instead of co-operating with one another in order to achieve their goals.

The urban structure is such that there can be only one area of greatest accessibility and centrality. Industrial areas cannot be sited in accordance with racially classified neighbourhood areas. The dream of every community having its own central business district and vibrant industrial area in order to create a firm economic base is not possible. At the moment we may live apart, but we shop together and we work together for the mutual benefit of all. This truism is now being vividly illustrated in places such as Boksburg and Carletonville. Let the Black people remove their spending power and see what happens. To expect that a residential area must develop its own central business district in competition with the central area of the town or city as a whole, is madness. Therefore a residential area can never develop its own sufficient economic base. Income in these important activity areas in a city is generated because of the endeavours of all the people. It therefore becomes quite impossible to grasp how it can be claimed that these areas are for the financial benefit of only one section of the population.

*So often we have heard: “This White town belongs to us. We were the sole builders and the money which is generated here belongs to us.” [Interjections.]

Yes, White money.

Sources of revenue built mutually cannot be tapped unilaterally and therefore the suggestion of autonomous so-called Coloured residential areas cannot and will not be accepted. [Interjections.]

*Apart from the facts mentioned above, there are so many common roads, channels of service and facilities that it is practically impossible for one group to take a decision on something which will not affect the other people in the town or city. I want to quote a few statistics to illustrate how important our people’s purchasing power has already become. In a recent study by Unisa’s Bureau for Market Research it was found that the market share of Brown people in the total national expenditure in Greater Cape Town is 27% already, with figures for food as high as 40% and cleaning materials 44% already. This means that, without our people, the cake would have been that much smaller. The question is whether our people are receiving their fair share of income sources based on this purchasing power. An analysis of a few of the large Boland towns also proved that Brown people were already contributing up to approximately 20% of net domestic taxes to revenue.

I therefore wish to ask whether those who advocate autonomous Brown local authorities know what they are asking for under present circumstances. A local institution without an expert executive arm and without an economic base is merely an empty shell which can play no significant role in the development of its people. What confidence can a developer or industrialist have in a local authority which is bankrupt and which has little or no experience of management? What point is there in trying to make people autonomous if they are left with sources of revenue which are fed bilaterally but drawn on unilaterally?

If general affairs play such an important part at central government level, how much more should this not be the case at local level where our daily interests are so interwoven?

What type of justice is it to attempt to make residential areas stand on their own poor feet while the rest of the town is declared a so-called White area?

Forget about autonomous Brown local authorities, because they cannot work and we shall not accept them. Let us work out a common salvation at local level.

Mr Chairman, we have a situation in which people make a great fuss on the one hand about separate local authorities while there are people on the other side who see no sense in this. Any community leader who is worth his salt, however, will try to bring about development for his people. In this process we have to advise, beg and appeal to people to obtain a few crumbs from the so-called White towns which lay claim unilaterally to common sources. This is a great source of frustration but to go one’s own way as a result of it will only lead into the abyss. We have further learnt from experience that assuming powers and functions without a proper revenue base is not worth much either. Nevertheless it is pleasing that these problems of revenue sources are now being investigated at high level by the Council for the Co-ordination of Local Government Affairs.

I am seeking a process by means of which our people may be inducted into local government and administration, but in such a way that we receive our fair share of the cake now. At the same time the local management framework must be able to promote effective development so that the development level of various communities may move closer together. This process will enable us to see eye to eye more easily in a system of direct representation in future.

We must consider the application of the model of general affairs and own affairs at local level as an interim measure too.

Thank you very much to many local authorities who do share and who do their best in assisting development to run smoothly. The battle on what is a fair share of the local cake, however, will keep clouding the issue in these matters too and could create increasing problems in times to come. These problems should not be underestimated.

As I have already said, great frustration is experienced in this sphere, but I believe that realities in South Africa are in the process of exerting positive influences on thinking in this sphere too.

Mr Chairman, considerable confusion exists on the powers, authority and duties vested in or laid upon a management committee or local affairs committee. I shall therefore dwell on this briefly. In the first place, a management committee can only act in a purely advisory capacity toward the local authority. There is no final decision-taking in such a case.

Secondly, the various ordinances provide that a local authority may delegate certain powers, authority and duties to a management committee. This means that the management committee is then able to dispose of such a matter but that the local authority continues to bear the responsibility. If a local authority is not satisfied with the way in which such a delegation is exercised, it can obviously be withdrawn again. This is the point where conflict arises. Delegation is carried out by means of a decision of the local authority involved. A management committee may request this or a local authority take the initiative itself. What is done here is therefore the result of negotiation and discussion between a management committee and the local authority.

A list of powers, authorities and duties which may be delegated was recently published in the Government Gazette by means of Notice 317 of 1988. Hon members can play a great part in making this information known to management committees.

Provision also exists for management committees and local affairs committees who themselves wish to assume final responsibility as regards powers, authority and duties. This takes place in terms of section 17(B) of the Promotion of Local Government Affairs Act and the Administrators have the power to effect such delegation at the request of management committees. My department arranges these discussions. It is obviously important to note that the entire responsibility falls on the management committee in this case and that the local authority is entirely relieved of matters which are assigned in this way.

There are two management committees which have already been assigned some functions in this way.

An impediment in this situation, however, is inadequate sources of revenue because powers, authority or duties do not mean much if the money is not there to do things.

I hope that this explanation will clarify the existing situation and I also wish to ask hon members to help me to publicise this information.

†HOUSING

Much has been achieved to improve the living conditions of many people during the past year. There is no doubt that the provision of basic services and adequate shelter remain the biggest single challenge facing this department and every individual who is serious about the future of this country. It is clear that the accepted practice to provide conventional housing has not solved the problem entirely. Due to lack of funds and the problem of steeply rising building costs the extent of the problem may increase in future. Innovative thinking in this field will turn the tide in our favour.

Since the tricameral system came into being, I have accepted the responsibility for this portfolio. I have been constantly engaged in trying to reconcile the expectations of people for a better standard of living with the limited resources at my disposal. The department’s approach to the provision of housing is to ensure that there are sufficient serviced erven in every local authority area and to provide a variety of options to the community for provision of homes. Every individual has to decide which option meets with his requirements and what he can afford. There is no doubt that the self-help building option has the advantage of giving the best end product for the smallest amount of capital invested. That, however, is not the only option. Self-help building is a subject that is dear to us.

A very serious problem is the very high cost of providing a serviced erf and the dwelling. The average cost to service a 250m² to 350m² erf varies between R8 000 and R13 000. The erection cost of a 54m² dwelling with a fair standard of finish varies between R20 000 and R25 000 and these costs are escalating at approximately 2% per month. In some areas these costs are higher. This is the big headache.

It is common knowledge that the standard of workmanship in large contracts for low-cost housing often leaves much to be desired. The principle of providing accommodation at a cost related to the income of the breadwinner is the main feature of the new repayment formula. According to the formula a person with a monthly income of R300 for example qualifies for a house not exceeding R15 000. It is therefore evident that a conventionally constructed unit will be far beyond the affordability level of a person with this sort of income.

Furthermore, if there has been no involvement of the occupant in the erection of his house apart from receiving the key at the end of the contract it is hardly likely that he will be a satisfied and proud owner. All this brings us back to the question of how we should proceed to provide affordable housing.

Success with self-help housing is to be seen everywhere. Success breeds success and we stand amazed at the ability of people, if given the opportunity, to use this ability. Self-help housing is here to stay and those who are prepared to accept the challenge, will soon realise that the department will give their project priority treatment.

An assisted self-help building project requires enthusiasm, initiative and organisation. The department has one full time official at head office, promoting and providing advice on self-help building. Regional offices of the department give attention on a part-time basis; local authorities must proceed with the project as soon as it has been transferred to them.

I agree that the concept of self-help housing could be the beginning of a wider development process, not only for the people involved in building their own houses, but also for the whole of South Africa.

An assisted self-help programme has been established by the department to help people to build their own homes. This structure of self-help approach, although it has only been in operation for two to three years, has already helped in the formation of new stable and mutually supportive communities as well as private sector participation in the provision of housing. A great wealth of resources that have been lying dormant in the community are now being mobilised for the first time and improvement and upliftment is beginning to take place. A community of receivers is being replaced by a community of achievers—and I should like to emphasise this.

This programme also creates employment and other opportunities for business and for social development. These include, inter alia, that people learn the skills required to enter the building industry. I should like hon members to visit Pietermaritzburg. I was there on Saturday and I saw how Coloured people were teaching Black people to build homes. This is involvement. Others join the private/informal sector providing services and materials, fulfilling the demands created by the programme; and people get to know each other and work together to build a viable and upwardly mobile community. Those hon members who participated in the election in Pietermaritzburg last year will recall how the people worked together. Now 250 self-help homes are being erected. Before the election takes place another 100 would be added to that list.

In order to build homes, stable settlements and a better future, it is important that the programme should be implemented imaginatively and flexibly. It must be run as a joint venture with the community. It is intended that, in time, the community will become the major partner in the programme.

A self-help manual has been designed by the department as an architectural and planning tool to assist in the establishment of an assisted self-help housing programme in South Africa. This manual contains a full range of different house plans ranging from 36 square metres to 68 square metres in extent. Even the very poor can afford to build their own simple, basic, small expandable houses. In order to alleviate the monotony that can result from using a few basic house plans, a number of variations in appearances can be achieved by varying the roof pitch, materials and design, the position of the street-front entrance; by using a variety of simple entrance features, pergolas, etc; and by varying the external finishes—fair-face smooth plaster, rough plaster and combinations thereof.

A detached step-by-step building guide, which is aimed at the man in the street, that will help him to be able to construct his own home, has been compiled by the department and is available to prospective participants. The concept of assisted self-help building has already taken effect, not only in the Western Cape where 60 local authorities have self-help projects under way, and is already being implemented throughout South Africa. The programme is already working—from Walvis Bay to Pietersburg, and from Pietermaritzburg to Bloemfontein. Some 3 400 houses have thus far been completed by participants countrywide in a relatively short spell of approximately two years. An additional 1 100 units are at present under construction whilst approximately 1 200 units are being planned for construction within the near future.

Where serviced erven are already available, the department will make every effort to provide funds if the local authority and the community are prepared to execute a self-build project. In a number of assisted self-help projects, SHARE (Self-help Association of Residents) has been established by the participating community, mobilising their initiatives and resources so as to help each other.

*It is not only in cities that self-help building projects can be carried out successfully. Fishermen have already completed 14 houses at Struis Bay and 25 houses at Gans Bay are nearly up to roof height. At Napier 43 people have already completed their houses. At Sutherland, a small town in the Karoo and the coldest place in the Cape Province, 25 houses are being built with bricks which the community make locally and at Brandvlei, where no project had ever been carried out before, 143 people have built their own houses. There are 20 houses under construction at Hopefield, 18 at Montagu and 23 at Piketberg.

Where does this attitude arise that country people cannot build their houses? It is insulting to our community to use their poverty as an excuse so that they may not be uplifted.

†I want hon members to come and travel with me and open these schemes. I want them to see the eyes of a poverty-stricken person for the first time in their lives as I saw on Friday in Ladysmith, Natal. Their eyes shine. Hon members should have seen that woman’s face. We are giving back self-respect to our people. We are restoring their dignity.

*In the Transvaal there is a project of 43 houses at Pietersburg already and the first house in that town was built by a woman.

†When we talk of self-help building schemes it does not mean the woman literally lays down every brick. She manages the construction of her own house.

*In Nelspruit 20 houses have already been built while a beginning has also been made in Natal in Pietermaritzburg on 250 units, 20 at Ladysmith and 100 at Pinetown.

Bloemfontein took the lead in the Free State with 91 units and in the Eastern Cape George envisages a project of 118 units. Hon members should go to Enon—a poor rural area, and see what a change those 20 houses with their gables have made to Enon. Hon members should take a walk there, have a look and visit the people in their own homes. From what I have said, hon members may deduce that self-help building schemes are no futile dream; they work. I want to appeal earnestly to hon members to take this message to their constituencies.

†I told hon members one plans one’s policy and one carries it out. One implements it. It is not the Dallases that lead to paralysis. It is not just big talk. One can see what has been done on the ground floor.

*As regards the Housing Fund, final figures are not available yet but estimates indicate that a total of approximately R200 million will be paid in respect of tenders in the amount of R263 million which have already been accepted. This is no mean performance and I should like to record my thanks to all, in particular to the Housing Board which has made this result possible.

The hon the Minister of the Budget quoted the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council in his speech and said:

We have built only 6 000 self-help building schemes and, if we deduct this number, it leaves 28 000 which have been built in the usual way. How can hon members tell me that self-help building schemes are the only option? In our fourth year this department built 32 houses on contract.

†Hon members must study the budget when we present our case. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is actually a pity that the hon the Minister’s time expired, because he had just begun to deal with the essence of the matter. However, more will be said about the Vote: Local Government, Housing and Agriculture.

In my opinion, local government is our people’s appointment with the future, because it is at local government level that we are going to determine what will happen in our various areas. It is true that many of the frustrations which our people are experiencing are created by means of various local authorities. Many of their frustrations should, in fact, never have existed. If we look at the notice which the hon the Minister quoted, 137 of 1988, it almost seems as if something is happening. On closer inspection, it appears that we are not going to receive 106 new powers by means of that notice, but, in fact, only 40. Many of these powers are repeated in the specific proclamation. I cannot see the point of our having, as it is stated in proclamation no 55, for example, the right to arrange a demonstration and a funeral. The following proclamation states that management committees even have the right to take part in such a demonstration. It simply does not make sense to me. It seems as if the person who compiled this particular proclamation was in a terrific hurry. As I said at the beginning, local government is our appointment with the future. We cannot be over-hasty in implementing 106 powers. As far as I am concerned, there are only 40 which make sense.

Without talking about autonomy, one must, however, say immediately that this specific notice definitely does not go far enough. The frustration which our people are experiencing does not lie only in those 40 identified points. On the one hand, our people are frustrated by the fact that if we obtain too many powers, we become autonomous. On the other hand, we are told that we are insignificant; that we cannot make decisions. I believe that the frustration which the people are experiencing begins when they are able to act in an advisory capacity only.

Our people no longer want decisions to be made on their behalf; they want to experience the decision-making process themselves, which brings us to the various powers and functions. It will benefit hon members to obtain this document and study it in depth.

However, what can be said to the credit of the hon the Minister, and I am very grateful for this, is that this specific notice is not going to be forced upon us in its entirety, but that it constitutes an option which can be exercised. There is a choice; one can decide what powers one wants to accept. I regard this as a very positive step. If, as was the case in the past, it were forced upon us, our frustrations would simply increase.

We now have the regional services councils, and many hon members will find that in time other regional services councils will be established. I am thinking, for example, of the regional services council of the Overberg which will come into operation on 1 July. I suggest hon members find out how the regional services councils work.

In this regard I have a problem. After all, the old divisional councils were abolished last year in terms of a proclamation in the Government Gazette. In their place, the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing has in fact become the divisional council. However, I do not have a problem with that, because the hon the Minister is doing his task very well so far. However, the problem which has to be addressed is the long bureaucratic process which has to be followed. It is frustrating for the community at large. If we wish to appoint a personnel member, he has to go through all the channels, and by the time his appointment is ratified, he has already been dismissed. It takes a bit too long. We must streamline the whole process of local government. This was largely the cause of the recent unrest. People felt that they should decry the management committees as being puppets, because if these committees did not really have the power to decide what should be done in their areas, then surely they were puppets.

We now have the ideal opportunity to put this matter right. I should very much like to enter into a discussion with the hon the Minister at a later date. I have here a document which I would take great pleasure in presenting to the hon the Minister. It is my perception of how local government should be administered without sacrificing autonomy or a municipality of their own. In the old divisional council of Stellenbosch the total population was 189 000, of which only 12 000 were Whites. The reality, therefore, is that 12 000 Whites have to make decisions for 177 000 people of other population groups. I find that unacceptable.

Let us take a town like Somerset West, which has only 22 000 inhabitants. Five kilometres from there is the fast-growing town of Macassar, which at this early stage already has more than 40 000 inhabitants, but which is excluded from everything which matters insofar as taxation is concerned, by some or other law. These are the aspects which we must address. Unfortunately I do not have the number of the document; nevertheless, I shall provide the hon the Minister with the number in due course, but according to the system of local government under the MECs, if I may put it like that, everything which is not an Indian affair or a Coloured affair, is a White own affair. This cannot be allowed, because at that level there are no general affairs. In other words, it is either own affairs or nothing. We will have to discuss these matters and consult the Administrator on them, because I find it unacceptable that the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing in the House of Assembly should simply take everything which remains—everything that we did not want—as White own affairs. That is where we lose out.

We shall have to begin to arrange this appointment with the future today. We cannot wait and allow ourselves to be frightened by people who say: “You are promoting own affairs.” The hon the Minister has repeatedly made it quite clear where we stand. The hon the Minister is using this specific department to promote the welfare of his people, and that is one way in which we can do it. What the hon the Minister has already done and what he is still going to do, is definitely our appointment with the future. We cannot sit still today and wait for other people to decide what our future is going to be and tell us how local government should be dealt with. This point must be urgently addressed.

Let us take, for example, the financial position of the various management committees. I want to say at once that if there is a town council as well as a management committee, they must be placed on the same level—they must sit together. The decisions of the one must not be subordinate to those of the other. However, in the same breath I want to say that I have a problem. Places such as Atlantis, Ennerdale and Macassar are the result of more than 40 years of apartheid. They are isolated. For that reason local authorities must be created there. I agree at once with the hon the Minister that we will have to consider their viability. The hon the Minister will have to help us to identify such areas and to determine our own boundaries. We must decide what really offers us an income. Then we will be able to talk about it.

However, in the joint committees, the hon members of the CP are always telling us that the Whites carry 90% of the tax burden in this country. To me that is a myth; I find it unacceptable. What is clearer than what is happening in Carletonville and Boksburg at the moment? If there are businesses which are now suffering losses of 90% as a result of the fact that members of other population groups are no longer buying there, this is a clear indication to us of who carries the tax burden. We are now talking about taxation by local authorities. If the Blacks, Coloureds and Indians no longer make purchases there, these towns will not earn enough to tar their roads. Surely that is a clear indication that the buying power lies in the hands of members of other population groups, as the hon the Minister correctly said. They are the people who carry the tax burden. In that case they must serve on the same town council. From now on they must be careful of what they say, because Mr Sam Nujoma said that he was going to erect bases in South West Africa for the ANC. I do not want to create spectres unnecessarily, but in the future it will be easier to get rid of Boksburg and Carletonville, because one will then simply be able to stand this side of the Orange River and call Swapo to come over. [Interjections.]

Order! I do not want to create spectres either, but the hon member must remember that we are now dealing with own affairs. The hon member may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. I apologize for being naughty. [Interjections.]

There is a wealth of ordinances, regulations and legislation which will have to be thoroughly investigated. If we look at 317, we cannot simply accept it in its entirety. If there are management committees which have already accepted it, I ask them with tears in my eyes please to take a little more care. This is going to be our downfall in the future. It is going to hurt our people. Tomorrow, or the next day, there are going to be other management committee members who are then going to say: “But you arranged our appointment with the future in such a way that we are now eternally doomed.” It is a good idea; the process of delegation of power and authority has started, and we have been given powers, because that is what it is all about. A person without power cannot enter into politics; one must be able to exercise one’s political power and rights, and this is most important at local government level, in particular. It is the jugular vein of any political situation, whether it is in White politics, or any other politics. For example, if we look at the situation of Mr Hoza of Linguletu West, we will find that he was appointed as mayor because he did not have political power. He takes every opportunity to participate in the decision-making process. I am not saying that he must have his own municipality or not be mayor; it is his decision and that of his people who are involved. It is very pleasant to see 25 000 people enthusiastically applauding their leader. He is undoubtedly the person who has won an election with the most votes yet. That is the option of those people. I am not going to tell Mr Hoza that he should not accept the mayorship. I am not going to tell his councillors that they should not accept the black toga. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the LP believes that there should be one integrated local government which represents all population groups residing in a specific town. [Interjections.] We are in favour of direct representation in one municipality. [Interjections.] The management committee system, which has existed for the past 25 years, has become a source of great frustration because such committees are powerless. They have no significant say over the control of the affairs of a specific area and its people. They are ignored by the local government as far as matters are concerned which, by rights, should be decided by them and no one else.

At present management committees are saddled with separate budgets and have no decision-making powers. [Interjections.]

It is important that every citizen of the country is offered the opportunity to exercise his God-given right to make a contribution to the future of South Africa. [Interjections.] We do not hate other people, but we hate the injustices that are committed against us. [Interjections.] We believe that there must be significant redistribution of the wealth and full participation in the power structures of the country.

Management committees are involved in a political power struggle. They must not allow Whites to make decisions on their behalf. We are old and competent enough to make our own decisions. That is why we are not going to allow town councils to manipulate us. Due to the fact that the final decision does not lie with the management committee, the development of our towns and cities is, in many cases, being impeded. [Interjections.]

Today I want to make an earnest plea for change on local management level. There is only one solution to our problems, and that is direct representation. [Interjections.] The designation of all town councils must be changed and they must be called management committees. [Interjections.] Constitutional change will also have to take place on local government level, because the present management committee system causes conflict. That is why I wish to quote to the hon members from a report in Die Burger dated 16 February 1989, under the headline, “Oudtshoorn-komitee los werk oor spanning”:

As explanation I could just mention that this White man was a captain in the Security Police. [Interjections.]

It is an indisputable fact that the present management committee system causes conflict. It causes communication problems. [Interjections.] Our hon Minister of Local Government and Housing himself can testify that during a meeting which we held on 27 February 1989 with the town council, the mayor did not even know the deputy chairman of the management committee. [Interjections.] The mayor, Mr Seppie Greeff, told the deputy chairman that he could not speak since he was not a member of the management committee. [Interjections.] However our people elected him last year.

In Oudtshoorn we have a verkrampte town council with NP heads and Boksburg hearts. [Interjections.] White town councils have no moral right to make decisions on behalf of my people. We are sick and tired of the paternalism of the town clerk. We can debate together in Parliament. Why can we not serve together on town councils? Why can we not make decisions together about our town or city? Why is it that the powers vested in the White local authorities cannot be transferred to the management committees? We are here in Parliament to abolish apartheid and we shall leave no stone unturned until all forms of racial discrimination have been removed. That is why I want to state unequivocally to the Government that we demand direct representation on local government level.

We are not going to allow other people to decide on our behalf. [Interjections.] To conclude I want to say that the regional services councils which … [Interjections.]

Order! Will the hon members for Matroosfontein and Klipspruit West please give the hon member for Dysselsdorp an opportunity to complete his speech? Hon members are encroaching on his limited time.

Regional services councils are to be established later this year. There are rumours that our verkrampte town clerk is possibly going to become the chairman of the regional services council. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, in my opinion the chairman of a regional services council must be acceptable to the entire community of a town.

Mr Chairman, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak. It is by the grace of God that I am standing in the House today and I pay homage to Him for carrying me through my illness. When I was a member of the LP the hon members always wished me a speedy recovery when I was ill. However, now that I am on this side of the House nobody even says “Keep up your spirits, oom Hansie.” I want to thank certain people like the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. He phoned me and wished me a speedy recovery. I appreciate that very much indeed.

It does my heart good to make a speech today because last year I was never afforded the opportunity when I asked for it.

When our hon leader, and I call him my leader whether he accepts it or not, took part in the by-election, the hon member for Border and his crowd said the nastiest and most spiteful things about him. Today I want to reiterate that I never ran to the newspapers with stories when they were doing that because I respect him.

I told him that I respected him on the highest level but that I was not a bootlicker. I say that again today. I respect him as my leader and I shall respect him everywhere. If I say something I shall only mention facts and never disparage him. I am not a bootlicker and I say in this House today that nobody will ever be able to accuse me of that! I shall respect him wherever I am. I shall never renounce him as my leader because where my principles were, that is where you will find me.

Today I say to the hon members that I was even kicked out of church, but I did not join another church. I waited until the church was convinced that I had been right. The LP will also have to admit that I was right and ask me to return. I shall not become a member anywhere! During the five years I spent with them … [Interjections.] Hon members must rather not challenge me because an explosion could occur if I were to mention the names of members who stab this hon leader in the back. I shall mention names, they must not provoke me! Hon members must excuse me if I deviate from the subject under discussion, but low blows have been dealt.

Order! Will the hon member for Fish River be so kind as to finish eating outside the Chamber? The hon member for Ravensmead may continue.

Thank you, Sir. He is wasting my time, but the Lord sees him.

I wish to thank the hon whips of the LP for the way in which they treat me.

Hon members must give me a chance because this is the first time since last year that I have had a chance to speak. [Interjections.]

Those hon members are going to get hurt. I leave them to the Lord. I did not come here to play games, but to speak on behalf of my people. They are going to get hurt because they are cowards. [Interjections.]

When the leader of the LP went to fight in the by-elections, the hon member for Swartland did not give me my usual speaking turn but caught me unawares time and again by letting me make speeches to put the Opposition in its place. [Interjections.] I put them in their places when they said bad things about our leader while he went to fight in the by-election. However, today I am sitting here and those people who said the bad things about the hon leader, are sitting over there. Today I can say that I did nothing wrong. [Interjections.] It is only the colour of my skin that has caused me to sit here today. [Interjections.] I shall explain that. The Whites have served on the town councils and in Parliament all these years and never made laws to help us. That was discrimination. Why cannot I serve on the management committee as well as here? Is it not a shame that I have to sit here today? I came here with them to abolish discriminatory laws. I shall continue to do that. According to a newspaper report on 1 January they said that I was in favour of group areas being retained. I challenge anyone in this House to say that he abolished a group area against the law. Hon members can go and look at Parow station and see how the free market system works there and who trades there.

I have never crawled on my belly before a White man as many of them do. Everybody talks about it. [Interjections.] Not I. There are officials here today who know that I do not crawl before a White man, but respect him when he is in the right. I respect all people but despicable things have been said of which I want no part. I cannot do it. We came here to fight for our people, not to insult each other. Today I am speaking to everyone. Hon members must watch out. God led us here. Do not let Him lead us out of here one day and punish us.

Lies have been told on both sides. Today I want to say that people who tell lies suffer the tortures of damnation. Let us tell the truth. The Bible commands us to do so. It is as a result of the colour of my skin that I am sitting here. It is true. [Interjections.]

I want to thank the hon the Minister. I have piles of letters here. I am not fast asleep. These are all follow-up letters. The hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council knows that I write two or three letters to him at a time. I do follow-up work. According to the newspaper I am on duty twenty-four hours a day. [Interjections.] That is why I can lay claim to my constituency. Nobody can take my place there. [Interjections.]

I want to convey my heartfelt thanks to the hon the Minister for everything he has done for me. This pile of letters is proof of this. I always received decent answers from him. Two Saturdays ago I sat in the Oasis with a letter which I had received from him. The hon the Minister must know that the UDF people often attack me. When they are in the hon Ministers’ offices they say the nicest things, but when they attend my meetings the hon the Ministers are disparaged. Yet I will support them and not leave a stone unturned.

Those of us who came here fought for our people for years. It was not they who did it. They destroy our people and are the cause of our children participating in boycotts and not receiving an education. But they have degrees and earn good salaries.

Once again I want to thank the hon the Minister. When I sat there the old vultures unfortunately did not think of inviting some of my management committee members. I am, however, pleased that they invited men from the welfare department. These are the people who do not want to co-operate with me. They are the ones who disparage my hon Minister.

When the people praised me for bringing the price of the piece of land down from R65 000 to R35 000, the then department of community development said that they had not made any profit on the land. But that was not true and they made large profits when they took our land. However, I can calculate very rapidly. That is the one thing that I can do very well. I told them … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I appreciate the introductory speeches made by hon members, particularly that of the hon member for Dysselsdorp who gave us an explanation of how local authorities work. Particular emphasis was placed on the areas lacking power and funds. I am glad the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture is optimistic about overcoming the lack of power and shortages of funds.

I addressed three questions to the hon the Minister’s office. These questions do not, however, fall under a specific local authority. Firstly I want to refer to the Knole Park area situated between the Ottery hypermarket and the cemetery. There are 44 Coloured families, two White families and one Black family living there. When he was approached, the owner of this land said he would develop the area because one could see the poor quality of the houses in which the people were living. I obtained statistics in this regard and went to each of those families to find out how many people lived there. I found that it was by and large Coloured people who lived there. The owner of the land has the necessary funds and architects and is prepared to develop Knole Park.

However, I discovered that people were hesitant because the land was classified as agricultural land. However, this area was divided up as long ago as 1918 and there are plans which indicate that the land was intended for a development project for housing. I want to ask the hon the Minister to re-examine the case of Knole Park and try once more to allow the developer, Mr Simon Katz, to develop this area. He wants no help from any other quarter, but wants to develop it himself.

Many Coloureds live in the Skaapkraal area. However, they cannot obtain a permit to purchase this land. The member of the House of Assembly and the farmers’ association are not opposed to Coloureds purchasing land for small-scale farming, but unfortunately they simply cannot obtain a permit.

I also wrote a letter to the hon the Minister’s office in connection with three farmers who are having tremendous problems in purchasing the land. They can afford it and have already reached an agreement with the owners to purchase the area. Up to now, however, they have not been able to obtain the necessary permits.

This morning I received a telephone call from one of the Volkwyn brothers, while I was busy here, asking me how things were going and whether their case was making headway. He wanted to know whether they would eventually get their permit.

The third area I want to touch on is the Zeekoevlei area. This does not fall under the management committee. It is an out-and-out White area, but the White owners have entered into an agreement with Coloureds for these houses to be sold to them. They vacated their homes and the Coloureds moved in. Now there are a whole lot of people living in White houses, but they cannot obtain permits to purchase them. They have, moreover, given up their dwellings and homes in the hope of now being able to settle in this area since they would be permitted to purchase.

They are now eventually asking for my assistance after being unable to obtain permits, because the hon the Minister said that they should apply. The applications were made, but they did not succeed in getting the people permits. Now they are asking whether these areas cannot be declared free settlement areas. I cannot deal with that matter because it is in the hands of the management committee and the Free Settlement Board. I would therefore appreciate it if the hon the Minister would have another look at my letters and at the applications that were made for these people to obtain permits so that they can purchase these houses.

Mr Chairman, if the hon member for Dysselsdorp says he is sick and tired of the paternalism of the town clerk of Oudtshoorn, I agree with him wholeheartedly. Similarly we are sick and tired of the Boksburg town council’s attitude towards the management committees. As a result of circumstances which are known to hon members, the management committee decided that they wanted to postpone the opening of the clinic on 21 April until a different attitude prevailed in Boksburg.

The town council informed the management committee that it was proceeding with the opening of the clinic, because the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare had already accepted the invitation. Can you imagine—with what is happening in Boksburg—that a Minister can accept an invitation to appear there contrary to the wishes of a management committee? I want to tell the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing that he must resign or be dismissed, because he is not doing his job properly, or he must be charged with murder or attempted murder, because after many complaints, even in this House, an hon member stood up here and asked the hon the Minister to help him because he was receiving death threats. He is dead today.

After numerous complaints to the hon the Minister, we must now read the following: Another MP receives death-threats.

Order! The hon member cannot say that the hon the Minister must be charged with murder. The hon member must withdraw that statement.

Sir, I withdraw it.

Hon members are complaining about serious issues involving things not being what they should be in their constituencies. Instead of people rushing to their assistance, they receive deaththreats.

I am referring to the hon member for Klipspruit West. Hon members read about it in the newspaper on Sunday. The hon the Minister should take these people’s complaints seriously.

The hon the Minister shrugged his shoulders in response to my interpellation the other day about the sale of residential plots in Eldorado Park. He said that taking action was not his department’s responsibility. Action should be taken by the people who paid the money for the residential plots. This is not good enough for me; in this regard I want to differ with the hon the Minister. His department is mentioned specifically as a contributory factor in the illegal sale of the plots.

What is more, the hon member for Bishop Lavis specifically inquired about an official of the department who was supposedly involved in virtually giving away these plots. Then surely he is a blot on the department’s name. It is the department’s responsibility to remove that blot because this so directly affects the way of life of our people.

The hon the Minister makes a great fuss about short-term objectives. However, it would appear to me that this plays the dominant role. When he spoke about management committees, the hon the Minister stated clearly in his speech that the short-term objectives fell under those committees. But one can also understand why this does not seem to work, because management committees have, after all, been made a family affair. MPs may not stand for election, but their wives may. The business therefore belongs to the family. [Interjections.] This is what it is all about. This is why relations can never progress as they should.

Under the hon the Minister’s chairmanship of Assomac it was decided that if there was no direct municipal representation by a certain time, management committees must be dissolved. What has become of this? We are now zealously participating in the election of management committees. The hon the Minister says, however, that they are there only in a consultative capacity. What happened after that decision by Assomac was taken? The powers of these committees are now being extended. However, the hon the Minister himself told us a moment ago that management committees, bodies which know nothing about administrative matters, could not be expected to take serious decisions relating to their communities. I do not understand this; I cannot reconcile these two aspects.

Last week the hon the Minister made a good job of lashing out at members of his party about self-help building schemes. In his interpellation reply to the hon member for Fish River he gave an indication that members of the LP, as in the case of a braai, understand the following about self-help building schemes. I quote from Die Burger of 18 March 1989:

The hon the Minister said that hon members did not know what self-help building schemes consisted of. He went on to say they were an option and not the only option. If this is true, I want to ask him why he told the management committee of Nasaret in Middelburg that the money was available, but that it then had to be a self-help building scheme, while the CP MP for Middelburg and the chairman of the management committee were holding discussions with the hon the Minister last year? Please note, a CP MP, not the LP MP in conjunction with the chairman of the management committee.

If the State decides that houses should be built by the State, in my opinion it then becomes a right of the individual which has to be honoured by the State. Please note, a right, not an own affair for short-term objectives. The hon the Minister of the Budget says that the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture obtained less money in this Budget without sacrificing efficiency. This hypothesis simply cannot be true. How efficient can the hon the Minister be if he has to make do with less money? Efficiency then has to be sacrificed. The other day the hon the Minister walked out of a committee meeting in Blue Downs because the Press was present and they had not settled their differences. The question is: For how long now have those people in Blue Downs been complaining about the quality of the building operations carried out by those contractors? The other question is how those contractors obtained those contracts which they subsequently did not carry out properly. Surely it would have been better for the hon the Minister to invite that committee to his office; then it would not have been necessary for him to walk out. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to agree with the hon the Minister when he says that to a certain extent public leaders become public property. I want to agree with him and I want to say that if I am an elected member and if anyone in my constituency—whether he voted for me or not—comes to me for assistance, be it on the first, second or third level of government, I must assist him. There must be no separation between an MP and a person on third level because the people in our communities maintain that one is elected to assist the voter at all costs. No matter what happens, one must assist him.

I would also like to refer to the letter published in Sunday’s newspapers. To the hon member for Matroosfontein it is a joke. To him it is a big joke to hold it up in this House and show me what appeared in the Press. [Interjections.] Either it is a joke to that hon member or he is ignorant. I would choose the second option, namely that the hon member is ignorant and does not know what is going on! [Interjections.] To the hon the Minister this threat is not the first one; it is the first one in writing. The others were all verbal threats and it is all about a management committee. The hon the Minister’s department built houses in Eldorado Park for the resettlement of the people of Protea. It is not the department’s fault, the hon the Minister’s fault or my fault that those houses were at that stage the most attractive houses—I do not say the best built—in the area and everybody wanted those houses. With regard to the repayment of those houses, it made many people jealous in Eldorado Park. Unfortunately everybody on the waiting list in Eldorado Park in the Johannesburg area, which I estimated at 21 000, was told: “You will get one of those houses.” That is what all of them were told—either by the local authority, which is the Johannesburg City Council, or by the House of Representatives. On both sides people were told: “You are going to get those houses.” Shortly after we stopped a deal going through for one of these houses to be sold for R11 000 there were a lot of rumours that a certain gentleman was going to pay R11 000 to get this house. There is no way that he can pay that R11 000. The house is being rented and in the case of a rented house, if a person is in arrears of R6 000 the council will write that R6 000 off against that person’s name.

The person will not get another house until that amount has been paid in full. The next person occupying the place must not pay the amount in arrears.

In that area there are certain members of the management committee who were telling people they would have to pay R11 000 to be allocated a house. We have put those people of Protea there. We know what is happening there. Because that deal was not continued, I received a threatening letter from an unknown person. The handwriting has however been identified with someone in that area. I handed over the letter to the hon the Minister of Law and Order.

Now I want to ask the hon the Minister something. In this letter it is said they have already written to the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture. I am begging the hon the Minister, if anybody has written to him during the past six months regarding the Protea issue, to let me have copies of those letters so that we can find the culprit, the person who wrote this letter. I suppose that I shall be threatened again before this week is out, because on Friday it happened again that a house was stopped from being allocated. My job is not to allocate houses, but to see to it that our people are properly represented. If someone should be given a house, then he must receive it rightfully. He must not be allocated a house because he knows a certain person or because a certain amount of money has changed hands.

I am stating it openly that certain management committees have become lucrative businesses where people are charged if they wish to be allocated houses. That is something I will not have my party taking part in and I shall make sure that if anyone in this party is involved in anything of that nature he will be reported to the leadership of the party. [Interjections.] The name of the party must not be dragged through the mud because of certain people wishing to line their pockets with money from the community. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister is also well aware of the fact that there is a lot of unpleasantness in the Johannesburg area between the management committees and me. The hon the Minister referred to it just now. He did not mention names, but he said that it had “turned sour”. It turned sour merely because I believe that we must do what is right. People must definitely not think that if they are involved in management committees they own everything around them. [Interjections.] That is not the case.

I have proof that the Johannesburg City Council has announced that houses are being allocated at the moment to people on the waiting list since 1982. I can show the minutes of meetings where people on the waiting list since 1988, 1987 and 1984 have been allocated houses. If one investigates those people one will find that they do not really need accommodation. Many of them are newly married couples. It is becoming known throughout the area. The moment one speaks out against it, either a special meeting is held where one is discussed and where threats of eliminating one are made, or one is threatened with letters to the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture in which he is asked to see to it that MPs do not get involved in local affairs.

We may be serving our people within a political party on the first tier, but we will see to our people’s day-to-day bread and butter issues. We are going to see to it that our people get the best possible deal, and if something is wrong, we will make a noise about it. We will say it is wrong and we will not conceal the fact. Therefore I plead with the hon the Minister once more to give me that information so that I may hand it to the hon the Minister of Law and Order. I have given him names of people to whom I have traced this handwriting. I have also given him copies of examples of the handwriting of these people. I know in my heart who these people are. We dare not take a threat of this kind lying down. [Interjections.]

The person I have in mind has threatened me on three occasions: Twice verbally and once by pointing a gun at me. [Interjections.] I left it that, thinking I should let it pass. When the letter arrived, I realised I could not leave the matter any longer. I am going to let the hon the Minister have a copy of the letter so that he can see that his name is definitely mentioned in the letter.

Whatever was done in connection with the Protea affair was above board. Our hands are clean and we can say that everything that was done there was beyond suspicion. Everyone to whom a house was allocated, received it on merit. Nobody to whom a house was allocated was not supposed to get one.

Many of the members of the management committees have meetings with people who used to live in Protea 10 or 15 years ago. Those people moved out and were paid out. They went to buy other houses and now they are coming back to the management committee and they say that I did not give them a house. Under no circumstances can one person have two houses as we do not have enough houses to see to all the people of Protea. We have looked for and found places for them, but we are definitely not going to allow one person to possess two homes to speculate with. Many of our people do not possess a house and we are going to see to it that everything in our area is done aboveboard—even if it means that they have to shoot me or use a bomb as the letter states. If they want to do it, it should at least be for something which I believe is right. What my people want, is what I will do. I will not do what an individual tells me to do. If a thing is wrong, then it is wrong.

The hon the Minister also stated that autonomy for Coloured areas is out. I agree with the hon the Minister that it is not feasible and we should not consider it. It will not be of benefit to our community. I would like to ask the hon the Minister what he plans to do with Ennerdale. I would not like to see it as an autonomous local authority. What is the hon the Minister going to do, though, because the moment one appoints a board to manage it, it will become autonomous.

Mr Chairman, I request the Chair to give me two minutes to clear up a matter. I also request the permission of my hon colleague.

On 9 December I received an invitation from the town council and management committee of Boksburg to open their clinic. Hon members know me as someone who replies immediately. I do not wait for very long before replying. I replied to the letter only on 23 January 1989, however, because I asked my Ministerial representative to consult our people first. I also consulted the LP members of that management committee. Only then did I decide to accept that invitation.

Because of what had happened in Boksburg, I wanted to avail myself of the opportunity to go and brave the lion in his den. As the Minister, I wanted to go and face the situation in Boksburg. I did not have the opportunity to do so, however, because I received a letter saying that the opening of that clinic had been postponed for an indefinite period. What the hon member for Reigerpark said was not true. I do not allow others to abuse me, nor do I allow myself to be used by anyone who wants me to others’ dirty work. I ask hon members to accept my statement. I did not act contrary to the desires of the management committee.

Mr Chairman, I shall begin where I would have ended. [Interjections.]

I share the hon the Minister’s sentiment that more attention should be given to local government and housing. I am sure that the hon the Minister feels in his heart that he wants clean local government. To use the hon the Minister’s own words, ethics and moral standards of public representatives should be as high as possible. As public representatives, whether on the local level or otherwise, we are public property. That is why I can in no way rejoice if another MP receives a death threat. It might just happen to me. It may not be important enough that it could happen to me, but still what can happen to the other man, can happen to me as well. Therefore I surely have no right to rejoice when he receives a threat.

The only problem is that this alleged corruption in local government is widespread. It is not limited to the Transvaal. I hear about it happening in Natal, the Cape Province and all over the place. I am referring to the corruption in the allocation of plots, houses, business sites and so forth. Hon members know about the incident in Eldorado Park. Complaints are received from everywhere, especially here in the Cape Peninsula. Perhaps the saying “where there is smoke, there is fire” applies to some of these places. I am not referring to the constituency represented by the hon member for Klipspruit West in particular. The hon the Minister should at least pay attention to these complaints because nasty allegations are made against that management committee and the hon member for Klipspruit West. I certainly would not like anything to that effect to be said about me. I quote a few examples from an article in Rapport Ekstra of 19 March 1989:

*Under the heading “Idiote”, which the hon member for Klipspruit West used so lightly, the following is said:

I am not saying that that is so. All I am saying is that the matter should be investigated. Where there is smoke, there is fire, and one cannot get away from that.

I quote:

†I would not like people to call me a “vetkop” and I certainly do not approve of people calling him a fathead MP, whatever he has to say about me. No matter how he interferes with me, I would not like to call him a fathead MP.

I quote from the report again:

*In other words, there are complaints about how the houses are allocated. I shall leave it at that, and the hon the Minister can give further attention to the matter. I am not a Minister, and therefore need not pay attention to it.

†I repeat, however, that in no way do I rejoice that a death threat is made against him. Yesterday it was Mr Peter Jacobs, today it is him, tomorrow it will be somebody else, and it may eventually filter down to me. That certainly gives me no cause for rejoicing.

As far as local government is concerned, naturally our long-term goal is an integrated local authority elected from a common voters’ roll, compiled on non-racial lines. That is a long-term goal. This is what we hope to achieve after we finish with management committees one day. The short-term need of the people now is housing and of course we also want involvement in decisions affecting our daily lives and our daily interests. Therefore we feel that it just does not make sense to talk of autonomy at this stage in time.

In fact, I am surprised that the Athlone Management Committee actually put forward a motion asking for autonomy at the last meeting of Assomac. They should be the country’s leaders and the trendsetters in the field of local government. After all, they are the largest coloured management committee in the country. We expected a better example from them seeing that this entire committee is dominated by the LP. They come along, however, and they have the temerity to show us such an example and ask for autonomy.

Like the hon the Minister I regard the establishment of regional services councils as perhaps one little step further towards integrated local authority because, at least this time, we have the involvement of Blacks in decision-making on local government level. Therefore we cannot say we welcome the establishment of regional services councils wholeheartedly but, as the hon the Minister has said in the past, the door is now open for Blacks to enter the local decision-making process. We welcome that.

Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the privilege of being able to take part in this debate.

I first want to tell the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing that whatever I shall say is not to be regarded as a personal reflection on him. Nevertheless I have problems with the system in which we find ourselves—against our will.

In speaking about local government, we think of matters which lie closest to the hearts of our people. I would be violating my conscience if I did not state very clearly from the outset that, as far as I am concerned, there is too much duplication at local government level. One of the greatest objections is that we are forced to administer NP policy. That is why I shall concentrate on the necessity of direct representation in local government which can only be to the benefit of our people in this country regardless of colour or creed.

The hon the Minister said in his speech:

That is one of the reasons that we have been sent to this Parliament by our people.

I do not wish to be negative but our people are continually being requested to cut back on expenditure and to tighten their belts. Such appeals are not worth anything, however, while there is duplication of councils and management boards. Take the Cape Town City Council for instance and the various management committees which fall under its jurisdiction. Is this not a clear illustration of duplication? Who ultimately pays the salaries of the city councillors and members of management committees? It is the taxpayer and that is why I feel that the matter has become such a farce that we cannot proceed with it any longer.

I know that there are municipalities which will do everything in their power to keep our people out. My question, however, is why in these times of so-called reform have another management committee or town council in a town or city? I am optimistic about the future of local governing bodies but we shall not be able to continue with two councils in the new South Africa. Dissatisfaction will have to be removed so that all people who live in the area of jurisdiction of a local authority will be represented on one council. I cannot say that the system of management committees has had no success at all in certain parts of our country. I can say in general, however, that this system does not work because here we give town councils the chance to exploit more ignorant people because they have all those years of experience that we do not have.

I want to mention an example. Notice 317 of 1988 to which the hon member for Macassar referred was also intended to apply to a small place like McGregor in my constituency. But what do we see? Of the 106 powers assigned to management committees, the town council of McGregor was prepared to assign only 13 to the management committee with certain reservations. They are not prepared to assign more powers to our people. That is why I am convinced that this matter can only be put right if our people have direct representation on local governing bodies. Let us move away from skin colour and apartheid for a change. Let us do things which will benefit our people.

Management committees, which were forced on our people at the time, and which were used by the LP to obtain the best for our people because there was no other way out, currently still benefit them to some extent. Management committees are becoming outdated now, however, and must be replaced by another system. The only other system which can be successful is direct representation on local governing bodies.

This Government, which was responsible for compartmental division of the franchise and which is now being denied the right to existence by almost the entire world community, should examine its own conscience and ask itself why there is such hostility toward South Africa. There must be tough and serious negotiation in this country and we shall not be able to evade our responsibilities.

The current state of affairs is that colour plays the most important part. There are Coloured management committees, Indian management committees, Black local authorities and colour is discussed round every corner at local government level. I feel that there should be a move away from this obsession with colour because that is our problem and it will be an even greater problem in the new South Africa.

In some towns the system of management committees has become a farce. There are towns which cannot even pay the members of their management committees any allowances. I regret having to mention this again but I have to do it because I represent these people. I must put their case here. The town council at McGregor is composed of old, retired people and I believe that the existence of a town council cannot be justified there. The town councillors say that they are not prepared to pay allowances to members of the management committee. Because the retired members of the White town council do not receive allowances, they are not prepared to pay members of Coloured management committees allowances either.

What do we find? What type of representation can one expect at management level if it is expected of members as life is today to make telephone calls free, to sacrifice their time and use their cars to travel to places? I received a reply to a letter addressed to the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture in which he informed me that he had discussed the matter with the Administrator and the Administrator had said the following. The letter is dated 21 December 1988 and it refers to “Munisipaliteit van McGregor: Finansiële Bystand”. It reads:

I do not blame them because that municipality does not justify its existence. So why is that municipality recognised? It is high time that the Provincial Administration dissolved that municipality because its existence is unjustified. What is the situation? There are 150 White residents as against more than 3 000 Coloureds. Our people are now at the mercy of those 150 White residents who are retired people in the main.

Houses are standing empty in the White area in my constituency. But what happens? The houses are sold as ancient buildings while my people are struggling to make a living. That is why I request that the system of management committees be abolished. I request that our people be represented on the same council as our White counterparts so that we may take decisions in consultation with one another which will lead to the improvement of facilities and the solution to our people’s problems.

Yet a further problem with which we have to cope is that one just cannot get around a town council in many towns. Such a town council is regarded as the one-eyed king of the town. Regardless of what our people try to accomplish, it is simply said that there are inadequate funds or that there is no legal provision for it. [Time expired.]

Mr Speaker, the motto of the Cape Town City Council is as follows:

This is the motto of the mother city of South Africa. On paper it is fine. However, I would like to know what the city council of Cape Town is doing to make that a reality.

I have said it in the past and I am going to say again today that the management committee system is unacceptable to the people. Whether some management committee works on the good graces of local authorities or not, it is still an unacceptable system. The masses and the people do not want it. It is a system that is based on apartheid and therefore it is unacceptable to us. It is an advisory system.

The hon member for Matroosfontein was totally incorrect—as he always is—when he presented the facts. [Interjections.]

You send your wife there!

It is only when someone knows a little that he makes the biggest noise. We know that to be so for a fact. When that hon member does not sit and sleep, he is not in this Chamber. That is something that he cannot deny.

The resolution from the Athlone and District Management Committee was that they asked for full rights and representation on the city council.

They said they wanted to be called councillors after they had received that right to be on that council. No one wants to be called a councillor when he is still in an advisory capacity. One is surprised at a man that has fought a management committee election. In principle, that hon member must resign his seat because his people gave him a vote of no confidence when they did not vote for him. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Matroosfontein must contain himself.

A lot of management committee members are trying to make this system work. We have heard this today. However, we must not forget what our presence in the management committee is all about. Our presence there is to break up that system from within. Our presence there is not to make the system of apartheid work. That is what the Official Opposition must know. The LP is totally against this system and we will oppose this system until our people have been given back their rights to sit in that council chamber as equal partners to the rest of the citizens of this city. If we do not get back our voting rights there will still be problems.

Listening to the very debates here this afternoon one discovers that even members of Parliament no longer want to accept this system.

We are not asking for something we never had. We are asking, in fact we are demanding, to get back something that was wrongly taken away from us in the first place. If the NP Government, and the new NP leadership, is talking about a big indaba and a new wave, they must put their actions where their mouth is. If they really want to create a new South Africa I want to ask them to give us, perhaps even here in Cape Town, the right to a local option, to have our own indaba, to work out how we want to get back into local government. The Cape Town City Council has its policies and its principles on how it wants to get me back there, which I do not accept.

They say my right to be in local government must be based on the value of my property. [Interjections.] If one looks at the value of property on the Foreshore or in Sea Point and property in Bonteheuwel one will see the difference. However, the masses are in Bonteheuwel. I am embarrassed for the sake of the hon the Minister who has to try to protect a system that is not of his making. Therefore it is vitally important for this Government to scrap the management committee system. However, we must not be left orphans. That is why we will knock this system until it is closed down completely and not filled with puppets.

[Inaudible.]

That hon member must be in love with my wife! I have never heard a man talk so much about my wife as he does. He is even convincing me. [Interjections.] My wife’s short time on the management committee has borne more fruit than he could dream of bearing in a lifetime on the management committee. [Interjections.]

I want to warn the Government that the ratepayers in our Mother City are going to rise up against the local authority. I will tell hon members why. The last unrest we had in townships was not against the Government’s policy or the central Government, but against city council rent increases. One should look at the buildings that were destroyed; at the places that were burnt down. All of them were city council offices. The people do not accept the White city council of Cape Town.

Take a drive along De Waal Drive. One sees only beautiful verges, but driving through Bonteheuwel one sees only gravel. I call it injustice. Hon members may call it what they want, but I say it is injustice. I would like to ask the local authority here in Cape Town to show me what money was spent in Coloured communities, especially Bonteheuwel. The only improvement Bonteheuwel has seen through the ages was the money spent by this Administration in the past four years.

Look at the sidewalks in townships. Upgrading was done by this Administration even in the constituencies of the hon members of the opposition parties. The money that is going to be spent in Bonteheuwel is money from our RSC, for which I am also grateful.

The facilities in our areas have been paid for by the rent of the tenant by means of the community facilities account. More than half of the housing stock in Bonteheuwel has already been sold and they are paying exactly the same rates based on value as people are paying in Sea Point and in Bishopscourt. Our people no longer want to accept the fact that they are paying such high rates. [Time expired.]

Mr Speaker, I should like to talk about two aspects of Vote No 3—“Local Government, Housing and Agriculture”—and particularly about the objectives of the department. Firstly I want to talk about matters affecting local government and the improvement of land and rights to, or in respect of, State land obtained for the purposes of the administration.

In this regard I want to quote from two conflicting sources. The first source from which I want to quote today is the annual report issued by the Provincial Administration of the Cape of Good Hope. On page 7 of the report the Administrator says the following:

I also want to refer to what the Minister of the Budget said. He asked whether those who propagated Coloured local authorities in this way knew what they were asking for under the current circumstances, because a local government body without an expert executive arm and without an enormous base was merely an empty shell that could play no meaningful role in the development of its people.

I also want to follow on the hon member for Macassar who said that a matter became a White own affair if it was not a Coloured or general affair. On the one hand the whole policy of the Administrator of the Cape Province is aimed at steering the Coloured Management Committee in one direction, while the policy spelt out by the hon the Minister seems to indicate another direction. Has the time not come for the hon the Minister to set up a special committee so that there can be an in-depth investigation into this matter.

In his speech the hon the Minister also said that they should seriously consider also implementing the model of general and own affairs at the local level as an interim measure. Does this statement then mean that we are dealing with the group concept and that the group concept should now be introduced at the local level? It already exists in the tricameral system and in the regional services councils. Is the hon the Minister advocating that this group concept be introduced at the third tier of government? If the hon the Minister is saying this, does it mean that he has gone a step further than the cry for direct representation we have heard here? For the past 20 years we have been clamouring for direct representation. However, this was apparently never really spelt out.

This takes one back to the conference held in Oudtshoorn in 1979. The same question was raised there, namely autonomy on the one hand and direct representation on the other.

†If the hon the Minister means that the group concept must now be on local government level he has my support, for the following reasons. Firstly, in most of the areas for the past 20 years the White authorities do not want to have their power diminished. We have to consider that Blacks have been brought into the municipal system by way of elections on 26 October 1988. Indian communities are also represented in various towns in South Africa. All four these bodies must get together if we are to act for the betterment and the improvement of the local towns and for the benefit of such towns.

If these four bodies have to meet for the benefit of that town then the question of group concept plays an important role. For 20 years we have been banging our heads against a brick wall concerning the question of direct representation, to no avail. If we can now shift the emphasis and say that direct representation must be via one’s own group to be represented around a horseshoe table, where the component from the Coloured area will represent that community, the hon the Minister has my support, if that is his new way of thinking. As I have already stated that is a shift away from the concept of direct representation.

In the case of Mcgregor I wish to point out to the hon member for Robertson that there will be only two representatives at this horseshoe table.

*The hon the Minister is advocating that the cake should be shared. This then is how the cake will be shared. If it is also his intention that the decisions which are taken there, for example about the streets, will be the matters affecting the local affairs of that residential area, it is the duty of that elected local authority to ensure that those matters receive attention. However, when it affects the interests of the town, the industrialists and the expansion of the various areas, as well as the creation of job opportunities in the respective towns, it can only take place on a group basis, if this is the hon the Minister’s way of thinking as set out on page 16. He must tell me today if I am interpreting him correctly or not. If this is the model the hon the Minister advocates—it is a model that can work—I support him. Just as representation at this level has become viable and progress has in fact been made, this can also happen at the third tier of government, if this is what the hon the Minister has in mind. He must please tell us.

I want to come to the fourth point I want to talk about, namely the acquisition of land.

†Last Friday I raised the matter and I asked the mayor of East London to convene a special meeting of all interested parties in East London, but today I wish to extend the invitation to the hon the Minister and his newly appointed Deputy Minister, as well as the officials of the department to come with me to East London so that we can see the land I am talking about. I have been asking for more land for the past four years and I have now negotiated on my own accord with other authorities so that we will be able to acquire the land. Now I am asking for the co-operation of this department as far as this is concerned. The hon the Minister knows about it as I have written several letters to him regarding the acquisition of more land because of the need there exists in this connection.

No provision was made in the Budget for the acquisition of land. I want the department to take note of the situation and to provide sufficient funds now for the acquisition of land because I do not want the same thing to happen there as in Blue Downs where people have been exploited. The cost of the land is R10 500 if one buys it now from the developer, but by the time a person gets to buy that land, the costs have risen to R22 500. I may be wrong but that is the impression I got. The hon the Minister may correct me. I do not want the people back home to be exploited by unscrupulous developers. The department can act now and acquire the land because the land I have identified is the Glen Devon township, a township which exists on paper. If the department can acquire that township it can be developed before Christmas. There are 257 erven ready to be developed. The farms Rockdale and Ferndale, as well as the SANTA settlement, can be acquired.

Then I also want the hon the Minister to negotiate with the hon the Deputy Minister of Agriculture of the Administration: House of Assembly, concerning the acquisition of the pineapple research station. That station will be ideal to be used as a building for a technikon for the Border area. At present it is still used as a pineapple research station, but it is no longer as useful as when the pineapple industry was first brought to East London.

A technikon is urgently needed in that part of the world. The pineapple research station and the surrounding land is adjacent to the area to which I have laid claim. That station may then serve as the buildings for a technikon for the entire Border area. At the moment we have to send our children from that part of the world, which is more than 1 000 km away, to come down to Cape Town to study. That must now stop, because we can develop much further in East London if that place can be used as a home base.

Therefore I shall be pleased if the officials can advise me as to when they are available, together with the hon the Minister or a representative of the Ministers’ Council, in order that the land may be identified physically and the department may be able to begin the process of acquiring the land.

Mr Speaker, unfortunately, due to the new arrangement concerning the time of debates I thought I would be able to fit in my whole speech on housing.

The intention was to complete my speech and add some comments. I am sorry the hon member for Reigerpark is not here so that I can answer him.

*I just want to express a few thoughts here in the time at my disposal. I must also express my serious concern at the cost of municipal services such as water, sewerage, electricity and garbage removal that are now reaching proportions which the ordinary person can no longer afford. It is counterproductive to establish expensive capital works for essential amenities, only to find out that the operating costs are so high that no one can use them. I am pleased to hear that the matter is receiving attention at a high level, and I trust that a solution to the problem will soon be found.

As far as home ownership is concerned, I should like to mention the dilemma of the present high interest rates on mortgage loans.

†Hon members have spoken about local government and I will answer them concerning this dilemma when the Housing Vote is discussed tomorrow.

*When the interest rate on mortgages was 13% in 1987 many house buyers were only able to afford the instalments with the help of the 33⅓% interest subsidy. Since then the interest rates have soared to 19%, which has caused the buyer’s instalments to increase by up to 42%. It goes without saying that these buyers now find themselves in a serious predicament, and it is not in anyone’s interest for financial institutions now to begin selling properties in execution on a large scale. I spoke to one of our people in Pietermaritzburg, whose mortgage bond repayment had increased by R200 per month.

I shall explain to hon members the dilemma in finding money for new housing. The State cannot stand aloof from this problem and I can give hon members the assurance that this matter has already been brought to the attention of the authorities concerned and that it is receiving serious attention. In the meantime discussions are being held with financial institutions for interim measures to be taken with buyers so that they will not simply lose their properties.

†I have raised this matter at Cabinet level and at meetings between the Ministers of Housing this is being discussed. We must look into this question of interest rates. Officials of our department have had meetings with building societies. Last Thursday we met with the Natal Building Society and the week before that we met with the United Building Society. Hon members must understand that I am doing my job and I am now reporting.

*Hon members will probably have noted that at present there is considerable conjecture in the newspapers concerning complaints from the inhabitants of Blue Downs and the surrounding areas. The Blue Downs development was initiated by the department and therefore it is important to us that the issue be settled.

†I would like to explain to hon members why this project was started. The accusation is being made that the department is spending all its money in Blue Downs … [Interjections.]

Order! The hon the Minister may continue.

Because of the shortage of funds the department spent its money on infrastructural development; the building of roads and the main sewerage system. R29 million was put into Blue Downs and because of the shortage of funds we had to opt for private funds through building societies. This is the point because every hon member in this House wants to see development in his constituency. Our department’s goal is to divide the funds available to us—particularly for the poor. This is why we had to opt for private sector development. One only has to ask the hon member for Border and invariably you will find that this is his problem. He will not have enough funds when he gets that area and he will have to opt for private funds from the building societies to house the higher income group. Immediately the interest rates rise this will be his dilemma. This is why I said that one has to be innovative and one should analyse one’s own position.

*To come back to Blue Downs, it must first be stated clearly here that some of the newspaper reports referred to complaints from inhabitants outside the Blue Downs area. These referred to the nearby Kleinvlei-Eerste River area. However these reports were published as though they emanated from Blue Downs. I am referring here to one specific company in particular.

These facts illustrate that the present problem is not confined to Blue Downs, but that it is a general problem which is being forced into prominence as a result of economic factors. The most general complaints are those concerning alleged poor building work and finishing. Strictly speaking, this problem should be sorted out between the two parties to the building contract.

†It is a matter between the person who selects the developer and the builder who builds his home.

*However I accept the bona fides of the complainants, and I want to play a role in solving such problems. During the meeting with inhabitants of Blue Downs on 6 March 1989, 18 written complaints were submitted. Each complaint will have to be investigated individually to decide whether or not such complaints are justified. Most complaints submitted have already been brought to the attention of the developers concerned.

†I had four meetings with members of the ratepayers’ association of Blue Downs—two in my office and two at Melton Rose Management Committee offices. We held meetings but I am not going to run to the Press each time and tell them about the meetings. I am doing my job!

*The complaints and the proposals from the inhabitants contain technical aspects on building work and legal aspects on contractual agreements involving the developer, the home owner, the building society and the department.

†As the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture in the House of Representatives I offered to discuss the problems in respect of the huge Blue Downs development with the chairmen of the ratepayers’ associations. Various issues were discussed with some of the chairmen of ratepayers’ associations on 20 February 1989. Further meetings took place on 6 and 13 March 1989. The purpose of these meetings was to get everybody involved with the project—my department, the developers, the regional services council, building societies, homeowners and the Melton Rose Management Committee at Eerste River, Cape Province—around the conference table to identify problems and seek solutions.

The presence of the Press at these meetings could not be accepted. Sensitive matters could not be fully discussed in the presence of members of the Press. However, this is what the ratepayers’ associations at Blue Downs want. The SABC was represented, members of the Press turned up; they wanted to turn it into a public meeting! One does not negotiate in public about sensitive issues which concern officials of the regional services council or my department, building societies and developers. One closes the door and one talks around the conference table.

The ratepayers also demanded to use the offices—the boardroom—of the Melton Rose Management Committee but when members of the management committee wanted to be present, they chucked them out! This is why I walked out on that meeting. It is common courtesy to allow one’s guests to be present because Melton Rose Management Committee is the main management committee concerned with the Blue Downs development.

*How are hon members going to feel if the boycotters say the member of Parliament must leave because they want to speak to the Minister and I alone? Surely I must protect hon members and I must protect members of the Melton Rose Management Committee and say that they have the right to be present there. When people did not want to allow that, I walked out, for surely the meeting could not have continued.

†There is honour even among thieves. Negotiations between me and members of the ratepayers’ associations broke down because of the demand that the Press be present at the meeting and the members of the Melton Rose Management Committee not. Today we received a letter from them again requesting us to talk to them on condition that the management committee are not present at the meeting. I cannot accede to this demand. There are ways in which we do things and the rules must be followed by both parties.

It is clear to me that the basic political difference which has always existed in our community between those who participate in the system and those who do not has come to the fore again and is clouding the issue.

My political vision as a minister in the tricameral system is not acceptable in certain quarters and neither do some people want to work with management committees. I understand that! However, the problems must be sorted out. That is the cardinal matter which has to be settled at Blue Downs.

Last night I had a another meeting with residents from Tuscany Glen—the meetings are therefore continuing. We are meeting with the building societies and the developer to sort out problems. Last Thursday a meeting was arranged at the request of the chairman of the Tuscany Glen Ratepayers’ Association but he did not turn up at the meeting. As a matter of fact, he phoned the Natal Building Society to tell them the meeting was off. They turned up and the developer turned up but this gentleman was absent. This particular meeting was arranged to be held in our offices. The meetings are arranged to solve the problems but then politics enter into the issue, which is unfortunate.

Melton Rose Management Committee, the current lifeline of the Blue Downs development in terms of basic facilities, in particular was the target of these people. The people of Blue Downs are using their schools, health services and offices.

I want hon members to understand the sensitivity of the negotiations at this level. As I said they were prepared to hold meetings in the management committee’s boardroom but the presence of the members of the committee was only allowed under protest. If this is the case it is better if the ratepayers’ association of Blue Downs operate on their own and take their own initiatives. The ball is squarely in their court to take the lead in solving these problems.

My department is dealing with the problems of Blue Downs at every level, ie the level of the developer, the building society and the regional services council. There is another side to Blue downs which people are ignoring. It is the positive aspects of the development, about people who have committed their hard earned money and made the biggest investment of their lives, and who are doing all they can to protect and enhance that investment. It is about the developers who recognise they have an obligation to provide quality and value for money, to right faults that do occur in house construction anywhere, and to help create an environment and a community that enjoys quality of life.

It would be unfair to label every developer. Hon members must go an inspect the area. The are people who are completely satisfied with the work of some developers in particular areas where they have erected their homes. It would be fair to state that while some developers may not be listening to their clients, others are bending over backwards to ensure their satisfaction.

Some building societies were prepared in my presence to make deals so that people would not lose their homes.

*In the long run this negative climate which is now being created around the Blue Downs development is not in anyone’s interest, least of all those who have invested their hard-earned money in their homes. We must simply, with understanding on both sides, find solutions to these problems.

†The hon member for Reigerpark in his unique way jumped on the bandwagon without knowing the facts. He did so too with the hon the Minister’s invitation. It is typical of him. We know he always twists words to suit the little argument he puts forward.

Order! The hon the Minister may not accuse an hon member of twisting words.

I withdraw that, Sir.

*A further complaint is the lack of social services such as schools, clinics, telephones etc. To a certain extent these complaints are justified since these facilities cannot be provided overnight. Nevertheless the planning of these services has been in progress for a long time and the construction of the first two schools at a combined cost of more than R6 million has already begun. The plans for the first clinic are ready and a mobile clinic service in the area was introduced in June 1988 and operates on a regular basis in the area.

Most of the areas have been provided with temporary telephone services and everything possible is being done to establish the full telephone network as soon as possible.

Complaints about drift-sand problems are, it is to be hoped, something of the past since the last open areas are now being stabilised and it is expected that after the winter growth period no further drift-sand problems will be experienced.

†It is very unfortunate that a steep rise in interest rates should occur at a very critical stage of the Blue Downs development, but it must be considered as an unavoidable obstacle that must be overcome. The development of Blue Downs must proceed if we wish to meet the housing challenge.

With little more than a year having lapsed since the first sites were handed over to private developers work is presently in progress over virtually the entire 4 000 ha Blue Downs area on the Cape Flats. This includes the one third of the land which is privately owned, as many of the owners have either sold out to developers or teamed up with them.

The townships Silversands and Delro Village are already being developed in the 626 ha Rotterdam area, and it is expected that the development of Fountain Village and Hindle Park will start in the near future.

During the past 12 months numerous milestones have been reached. With more that 20 applications having been made for new townships, there is now very little land left for which application has not yet been made.

Apart from the development taking place in the Rotterdam area, the development of the Delft area has also started with the awarding of a R2,1 million contract for the provision of bulk services. It is expected that a start with developing serviced sites will be made very soon. Many developers could be involved in the project in the future and it is likely that private enterprise and this department will be spending some R350 million in the provision of housing infrastructure within the next five years.

A high priority will be placed on the provision of houses at lower prices than those presently available elsewhere at Blue Downs. This will probably be achieved by means of starter homes and self-help projects. The Delft area is earmarked for the lower income group in particular.

*As regards the activities of the Development Board, one of the main functions is to ensure that adequate land for development is available. I am saying this once again for the information of the hon member for Border. However, the activities of the department in this connection are being hampered by many problems with the identification and allocation of land as a result of mining activities in the Transvaal and the physical nature of land in Natal—to mention only a few examples.

In order to expedite this process consultants were appointed a year ago to carry out the necessary investigations on a country-wide basis. These studies have in the meantime been completed and the information collected is at present being processed so that new projects can be initiated in the near future.

The long time-lapse between the recommendation of the Group Areas Board on a specific area and the promulgation of the actual proclamation is a cause of concern and the matter has been taken up with the responsible Minister. The Development Board plays an important part in involving the private sector in the elimination of the housing backlog by making land available for development on a development right basis, and success has already been achieved with projects at Ennerdale, Blue Downs and Daljosaphat.

The upgrading and improvement of the infrastructure, housing and the improvement in the standard of living in backward areas are receiving constant attention, and it is here in particular that community involvement is of the utmost importance. The Development Board plays a part in keeping lines of communication open when upgrading activities take place.

After prolonged negotiations with the Western Cape Regional Services Council it was decided that the department itself would proceed with the development of the Delft area. Eventually it will be possible to erect 15 000 dwellings here. The project will handled by a project team put together within the department.

†Mr Speaker, I wish to thank everyone in my department, and so many other people who had been a help and source of inspiration to me. I had the honour to receive the Housing Man of the Year Award and I gladly share this honour with all those who contributed towards this achievement. The award was given because our department combined the private and the public sector in housing successfully. This is where I should like to come to the question of local government.

In the last few minutes at my disposal I will not be able to answer every hon member. However, I should like to thank every one of them who participated in this debate.

*The hon member for Macassar hit the nail on the head when he discussed the question of powers. Many other members, such as the hon member for Dysselsdorp, the hon member for Ravensmead, the hon member for Reigerpark, the hon member for Matroosfontein, the hon member for Grassy Park and the hon member for Robertson also mentioned this aspect.

†What is the role of a local government body? A local authority has to provide services, such as water, electricity, the removal of garbage and night soil. What has happened now, is that the local authority has become a builder. Hon members should look at housing for the White community. Private developers buy land, develop it, build homes and get loans from building societies while the local authority is asked to provide the services. The home-owner is the one that pays for water, electricity, and the removal of garbage. The bond is being paid to the building society.

Now we get to the role of the management committee. This is where we want to be given these functions in terms of the devolution of power or the delegation of functions. What do we as MPs want to do? Some hon members have stated continuously that they want to develop the constituencies which they represent.

*We want to build houses, and not supply water, electricity or remove garbage and collect the taxes. We want to implement the development function. That is the duty of the management committee. It is not the duty of a local authority. In the present situation it is the duty of the local authority to build houses for Coloured people. That is our dilemma. One must implement projects by means of the town clerk—and the good Lord showers bountiful blessings on one if one has a good town clerk!

†Hon members know it as well as I do. It is the truth. However, there are problems with White local authorities. Some White local authorities are telling me they will not build homes for Coloured people because it is not their job.

*What must I do? The people want houses in that area. I could mention names to hon members in connection with which millions were given for housing, but the project could not get off the ground. In one place—here I do not want to mention names; the hon member can ask other hon members, because I was on tour with them—we have been struggling for two years to get the town clerk so far as to draw up the tender documents for the implementation of this system.

†This development function must be given to the management committee so that it works either through our department, the regional services council or the private developer to be sure that the land is serviced for housing. What one is taking away from the local authority is not its primary local government functions but its development functions.

*This is the duty of the management committee. The management committee must see to it that its people in its area are properly accommodated, because it is the local authority. However, this does not mean that it is going to become autonomous because it is building houses.

†Take Blue Downs as an example. Who is the local authority there? There is no mayor, town clerk or town treasurer. However, homes are being built because we in this department are directly in control of the question of implementing services.

The Minister is the mayor!

I am not the mayor. [Interjections.] I want to explain to hon members so that they understand our dilemmas. The hon member is calling the building of homes a local government function and is saying this makes it autonomous.

*Hon members must consider what the Whites are doing. White housing is not built by the White town council. It is built by a White developer who is associated with that suburb.

†We must please take away this fear in our minds about the whole question of what we are to do. The hon member for Reigerpark built Rabie Ridge. However, it does not mean that Rabie Ridge has become an autonomous municipality now. One of the fastest developments that took place in the Transvaal was Rabie Ridge because it was directly done by our department. It was the implementation of a development project. This is what we are talking about.

*I want to explain the matter to the hon member for Robertson. We took the management committee of McGregor to the administrator, as we did in the case of Stellenbosch, Daniëlskuil and Hawston, and said that we were now taking over these development functions ourselves. Because personnel has to be appointed in that area, we also took the appointment of personnel under our direct control as a final power of the management committee.

†I want to explain something to hon members—forgive me for being humorous. When hon members who are married men go home tonight, a plate of food will be put in front of them. They do not know whether it is going to be curry and rice or fish and chips. They have no choice. That is a function that their wives have in their own right. That is devolution of power.

*She does not ask her husband every morning what she must cook for him that night. She can consult her husband, but she decides. That is devolution of power. If she works, she employs a servant. Every morning when she goes to work, she tells the servant what to buy at the butchery or fish shop and what to cook.

†She delegates her responsibility to her servant. That is delegation of functions. These are two concepts. What do hon members want to do as management committee members or as members of Parliament? [Interjections.] They want to build homes, roads, develop areas and implement schemes. This is the dilemma that we must solve when it comes to local government.

*Everything has to go to the council, and if that White council makes things difficult for one, one is going to wait. Then someone calls in the Minister and says: Minister, assume the role of Solomon, because the council and I cannot reach an agreement on the implementation of a project.

†I am tired of this. We must get clarity on what our function is. We have clearly stated that we want to upgrade our people’s lifestyle. We should take the final decision on how we are going to set about doing it. So I want hon members to under stand clearly what we mean when we talk about division of the power of local government bodies, because very often we see apartheid around every corner. When we give a person the right to build houses and dispose of them people say he has autonomy.

*We tried this with the local authorities. This function was delegated to the management committee, and just see how rapidly the houses go up. But go to a local authority that refuses to delegate this power to you, and see what happens then.

†Let us be honest with the hon member for Macassar and with the hon member for Klipspruit West when he comes to Ennerdale. What will be the function of those management committees? [Interjections.] No, it is private development funds. The building society is coming in with its own funds to build homes at Ennerdale. The question is what functions and powers will we give to the management committee of Ennerdale or Macassar or Hawston if they are Coloured areas completely on their own.

*What are we going to do with Genadendal or Atlantis or Mamre? You must bear in mind what we are going to do so that the management committee in that particular place can carry out its functions. Regional services are going to be expanded, and regional services councils have now become another source of income.

†Some people are getting millions in their areas from the regional services council. In my own constituency I got R100 000 for infrastuctural planning at Johannesdal near Pniel. It is the duty of the member of the management committee who serves on the regional services council to provide his budget for the area that he represents.

*Local government is going to change in this country, whether the Whites like it or not. As the hon member said, we are all going to sit together—Blacks included—in one government in the town. This is going to happen, whether by means of group or direct representation. Economic realities determine this. Boksburg and Carletonville tried.

†It is said White money is running Boksburg. Why are they crying now for Blacks to come back with their spending power? Because that spending power is providing the rates, is paying for the tarring of roads and the running of systems.

I want to thank the hon members who have consistently explained the LP policy this afternoon. I am grateful for people like the hon members for Dysselsdorp and Bonteheuwel. However, I am sorry the hon member for Reiger Park is not here.

*I want to tell that hon member that he must not employ underhand tactics by laying the death of Mr Peter Jacobs at my door. It is a matter for the police. If certain management committee members have abused their positions they must be charged. In connection with this complaint against certain people which the hon member referred to I want to say that the document was sent to the Attorney-General for scrutiny by those people themselves. If hon members have a quarrel with management committee members they must rectify the matter on that level.

Mr Speaker, right at the outset I wish to extend my congratulations to the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing for the award which he received as Housing Man of the Year. This was well-deserved, and we wish to express the confidence that he will win many more such awards. In order to help him achieve this, we shall have to maintain continuous discussions.

The hon the Minister was quite right when he spelt out the problems relating to the provision of housing for our people. One of the great problems that will have to be seriously addressed, is that certain developers, whenever they work in certain areas, wish to skim off the cream as quickly as possible, which naturally entails detrimental consequences for the development of such an area. I believe that in view of our large housing backlog we should now take a look at the provision of affordable housing. It serves no purpose to keep providing housing which does not suit the man in the street’s pocket.

Whilst I am on the subject of affordable housing, I want to add that there are various methods of constructing housing. There have been advances in technology. Therefore it is no longer necessary for us to build a house with four bedrooms and two tiled bathrooms for newly-weds with one child. The emphasis must fall on the affordability of housing, and this is unfortunately where we have fallen a little short in recent times. If we look at our statistics, we will see that the vast majority of the population falls into the middle income group. The people in the higher income group have the financial capacity to provide for themselves. However, the people in the middle income group are faced with a dilemma. Their salaries are too small; they cannot qualify for a loan at a building society. For this reason I want to appeal to the department to become more involved in the provision or financing of affordable dwellings for the middle income groups.

There is another matter which I want to bring to the hon the Minister’s attention. The hon the Minister could generate a large amount of money in a very simple manner, seeing that we have a shortage of funds. He could do this by selling off all the old sub-economic schemes—not just certain ones. However, I want to request in the same breath that the prices should be equal to the actual construction costs of those specific houses. I know that the hon the Minister will tell me that the sales scheme is still in progress. I understand that, but there are, for example, the old-fashioned railway houses. If we were to sell those houses to someone for R600, for example, this would be an affordable figure. These projects have paid for themselves over and over. Why should we continue to bear the responsibility of renting a house with all those defects to someone?

There are many other areas at which the hon the Minister could take a look. The moment someone buy such a house, he immediately begins to upgrade that house. If I were to ask the hon the Minister today to make money available to me for houses that were poorly built 18 years ago, I would be creating a problem, because the money which we receive from his department is not money which can be given away for nothing. The money must be paid back with interest. We could sell these houses, because then it would be the owner’s responsibility to upgrade them. Then we could further expand this self-help building scheme. It is that simple. The hon the Minister would immediately have a large amount of money at his disposal, which we could in turn make available to those who wish to avail themselves of the self-help scheme.

I want to thank the hon the Minister for that. We have done this on a trial basis. We attempted as early as 1980 to promote the idea of self-help schemes in Macassar. It did not work. Other areas had to do it first so that we could see that it did work, because it was a new concept and the people simply did not take to it. Exactly two months after we made a start with our first self-help project on 1 June last year, the first people moved into their houses, and the hon the Minister was present. These were people who had no knowledge whatsoever of building methods. They are some of the loveliest houses in Macassar. The unfortunate part is that we are now saddled with a long waiting-list for self-help projects. We cannot keep up in so far as having these erven serviced is concerned, in time to proceed with the self-help programme.

It is true that we are helping to make homeowners of our people, but there is another aspect which the hon the Minister will have to help us with. I am certain that many other hon members are experiencing the same problem. If the hon the Minister wishes to once again become the housing man of the year, he will have to help our people to retain their houses.

One of the most unfortunate aspects which is emerging, is the way in which our houses are valued for rating purposes. This method which is being used by the old provincial administration is totally unacceptable to me. The method which is used is determined, as they put it, by the movement which is taking place in a specific area. If I had my house built 10 years ago for R6 000, it was valued at R1 000 at that time. We need only look in the newspaper every Saturday morning: A house in Constantia is sold for R190 000, but the municipal value of that house is R20 000.

The converse is true in the Coloured areas. A house is erected for R44 000, but its municipal value is also R44 000. What is the reason for this? It is the method that is used to determine municipal valuations, because as long as we are dealing with large projects such as that at Blue Downs, where further building work is continually taking place, our people will be taxed to death as a result of the method which the provincial administration uses to make municipal valuations. It eventually works out cheaper simply to rent a council house, for which one will pay less rent than the building society instalment would cost, taking into account the rising interest rate, and the fact that one is shocked out of one’s wits every year when the rates account arrives. There is really nothing one can do about it.

The hon the Minister will understand this. This is a matter which we shall definitely have to address since our people simply cannot afford all these high taxes. We know that we have to pay for the services, but owing to the situation of our areas we are excluded from the rates income where it really counts, and this is something which is hurting us terribly. I am sure that hon members will agree with me that we shall have to devote some urgent attention to this.

I wish to thank the hon the Minister for the initiative he recently took with regard to the Blue Downs issue. Repeated reference has been made today to threats, and so on, but hon members will recall that on 16 May last year I stood up here and asked the hon the Minister to launch an investigation into this. Two days later shots were also fired at my house. It is extremely dangerous to be a member of this Parliament. Hon members know that the following is being said: “Things are so hectic here people are dying to get out of it.”

In so far as Blue Downs and the problems there are concerned, I wish to repeat that I am grateful that the hon the Minister is devoting attention to this. The hon the Minister knows that it has already been mentioned in discussions that he is the father of self-help building and of Blue Downs. It is logical that people will approach him with their complaints and their problems, and I ask the hon the Minister to take the knocks during this transition period and to listen to what the people are saying. There are people who really do have problems. For instance, there is one case which I remember well, of people who do not need to buy a vacuum cleaner; they rather need a lawnmower because the grass is growing right through the carpets in the house. [Interjections.] It is this sort of thing that is making people impatient and rebellious. Now, at the end of the day—I hope, Sir, that you will permit me to quote this verbatim—people are saying that it is David Curry’s fault. [Interjections.] The hon the Minister was not present when that house was built. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, today I take very great pleasure in sincerely welcoming the members of the management committees of the respective towns of the Southern Cape here. A special word of welcome to Mr Damons, the Chairman of the Oudtshoorn management committee and of the Bridgmanville branch, as well as Mr Daniël Swart, the Chairman of the Maranatha branch of the LP. [Interjections.]

Order! I do not think it is permissible to extend all these personal welcomes. I would have allowed the hon member to say that he welcomed certain people from his constituency. The hon member has now said that, and I will not allow anything further.

Very well, Sir. Mr Chairman, we will not be able to solve the critical need for housing in our community until the Group Areas Act has been repealed. We have a need for housing in Oudtshoorn, and there are approximately 2 000 people on our official waiting-list. This need for housing has given rise to overcrowding.

The need for housing in Oudtshoorn is causing concern because at present more than 600 people are being treated for tuberculosis. The need for housing is wiping people out and for that reason I want to make a serious appeal to the hon the Minister today to vote funds to build 500 self-help houses as well as 500 conventional houses. This is a very reasonable request to our hon Minister, whom I also want to congratulate on his nomination as the housing man of the year. We cannot allow ourselves to build our future on poverty, a lack of housing and inadequate community facilities.

In Oudtshoorn there is a housing scheme of 207 houses which was built in 1938. During the past 61 years the occupants of these houses have paid them off in full. At that stage the erection costs totalled R200. At the moment these houses are being sold to the occupants for R875. In my opinion this is too much because these houses, which are already 61 years old, have many structural defects; the roofs leak and they are dilapidated. I therefore want to appeal to the hon the Minister to give these houses, which have already been paid for by the occupants, to the people free of charge.

To date the town council of Oudtshoorn has refused to grant occupants the discount on houses for structural defects. The sale of the houses is being delayed by this. For that reason I would appreciate it if the Department of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture would see to it that the discount on all these houses is implemented. I also want to ask the hon the Minister to appoint a commission of enquiry to investigate the financial affairs of the municipality of Oudtshoorn. [Interjections.] It is an undeniable fact that in many cases the municipality cannot say how much money our people have paid in rent because they have no records.

Owing to the unjust, unchristian and ungodly Group Areas Act our people are located far from towns. Consequently they must pay exorbitant prices for services such as sewerage, electricity and water. That is why I appreciate the hon the Minister’s announcement today that this is receiving high level attention.

In South Africa the wrong people are being subsidised for housing. That is why we will have to help our people, because there are still many of our people who are living in a subculture of poverty. We must take the service to the people. At Dysselsdorp the community health centre has already been approved by the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. Today I want to ask the hon the Minister when he is going to start with this because there is a great need in this regard. Today I want to take this opportunity to thank the hon the Minister and members of his department for the successes already achieved in that department.

Mr Chairman, in December 1988 the residents of the Toekomsrus residential area approached the management committee with summonses they had received for arrears rates. The people could not understand why they were being summonsed for arrears rates whereas they had not yet signed a contract of sale.

On 15 December 1988 the management committee held discussions with the chairman of the town council’s committee which handles finance. He did not want to accept that the people could not be held responsible for rates.

Early in January 1989 further discussions were held with the town council, but they still refused to accept that the people could not be held responsible for rates.

The management committee and I then decided to seek legal advice because by law our people were not obliged to pay rates. Everyone agreed, and at a meeting they handed their summonses to us.

In this connection I want to refer to an article which appeared in Rapport in January 1989. The caption reads: “Bloedneus! Oudtshoorn-munisipaliteit loop hom vas.” I quote:

Mr Chairman, we are on the war path! We are not going to allow the municipality to exploit our people any longer. The municipality is now trying to get at people in an underhand way in this rates case which it has lost. I am tired of this swindling. In this regard I am quoting from Die Burger of 27 January 1989, in which I said the following in an interview:

The hon the Minister said that in this House on 22 April 1988. There are no maintenance funds. These houses have many structural defects and I want the hon the Minister to help us, because the people cannot buy the houses until they have been repaired. In spite of the fact that the 500 houses were completed on 12 December 1985 the occupants only received the price last year. [Interjections.] Time and again the residents of Toekomsrus have received a different price for the houses from the municipality, which has caused great confusion in the community.

In a press release Mr Charlie du Plessis, the former chairman of the Bridgmanville management committee, announced on Friday, 17 August 1984, in the Oudtshoorn newspaper Het Suid-Western that the price of those houses was R8 500. Last year the people said that the price of the houses was R10 000. [Interjections.] We are raising this matter with our advocates. On 6 March 1989 they made Mr J Petro pay R11 573,96 for the same house. We are going to court again because they also made Mr Petro pay R881,48 for rates for which he was not responsible. [Interjections.] We cannot put up with this exploitation any longer and we are going to expose it.

Order! The hon member’s time is being wasted unnecessarily by other members’ conversations. The hon member for Riversdal must please sit in the right seat. The hon member for Dysselsdorp may proceed.

Mr Gert Kietas signed a contract on 2 August 1985 in terms of which the purchase price of the residence on erf 10024 was R8 550. He paid this sum in full in cash. Why did Mr Petro have to pay R11 573,96 for the same house? [Time expired.]

Personal explanation:

Order! Before I call upon the next speaker to speak I am giving the hon member for Ravensmead an opportunity to give an explanation.

Mr Chairman, when I used the word “boot-licking” (stertkruip), I assumed that you would set me straight if it was not parliamentary. If it is not, I withdraw the word and replace it with the word “toady” (inkruip).

Order! Is the hon member withdrawing it unconditionally?

Yes, Sir.

Debate resumed:

Mr Chairman, allow me to express my thanks to the hon the Minister who is always prepared to hear our case. During the past month we visited him twice with a delegation. The one was from Richmond and the other from Hanover. We want to thank him and Mr Du Preez for the interview. It has amply borne fruit.

We are pleased with the information that the technical school at De Aar is now being built. We also appreciate this.

We should like to know how much progress has been made in obtaining buildings for the Department of Health Services and Welfare. We hope we shall obtain a satisfactory answer in this regard too.

We also want to know how much progress has been made with the school building at Hanover. We would appreciate it if the hon the Minister could furnish us with an answer in this regard.

The shortage of housing causes many problems. It bedevils relations and causes hostility in our community. The election created great expectations among our people. Before the election of the management committees there was advertising on a large scale. We were told that we were now going to be empowered to govern ourselves. It was also said that management committees were indicative of the extension of democracy. However, up to now they have brought nothing but frustration. The expectations have not been met. They have become like a patch of new cloth on an old garment. This resulted in our management committee at Noupoort resigning.

The people fought the election in good faith in the hope that they would mean something to their community. However, to their disillusionment they found that this was not the case. Consequently the men resigned because they had asked for certain basic things. They had asked the council to repair certain roofs that were leaking. The council’s anwer was: “Tell the people to buy the houses at 65% discount.” They had asked: “Remove the slop buckets three times a week.” The council then said: “It has been twice a week all these years; this request for three times a week is unreasonable.” Where does one go from here? I think the time has come for our town clerks to be trained in human relations. The management committee in Noupoort resigned out of frustration, and this has the approval of their community. However, what happened after they resigned? The chairman of the management committee was visited by the security police. [Interjections.] That is scandalous! If it happens again, I am going to appeal to the Ministers’ Council of the House of Representatives.

It is not the management committee that bedevils relations. It is the municipality! [Interjections.] They must not cow our people and frighten them, because they have real grievances. An official of the relations committee went to Noupoort to negotiate with the management committee. The management committee has no problems as far as relations are concerned. They are prepared to co-operate. They are prepared to accept the hand of friendship extended by councillors. They want something for their people. But it is the council that is bedeviling the relations! [Interjections.] It is therefore time for us to train these people to maintain good relations. Hon members know that one would be only too glad to find a good town clerk.

Are many of our problems involving the rebelliousness in our community not caused by our local authorities? People come in good faith and with good intentions to obtain what their community needs. Because the people can not achieve anything and because there is a council or a town clerk that is not in earnest, the management committee is denounced by their people as being a sell-out or a group of yes-men.

A time will come when all management committees will resign. These people are not prepared to be denounced as people who say “Yes, master” and grovel. After all, we did not ask for this system. It is a system which was established by the Government. If the Government is practising a system of apartheid they, and not we, must pay for that system. If they did away with group areas, we would be satisfied. I repeat that they must pay for the system.

Their town clerk says it is our House that does not want to give the money. They are putting the blame on the House of Representatives and on the shoulders of our hon Minister. This is not true at all. The Government will have to pay for this apartheid system.

Mr Chairman, housing is one of the most important aspects which can be used at the end of the present term as a barometer to establish how far we have gone in helping our people out of the syndrome of backwardness into which they have fallen. For that reason I consider this Vote with which we are dealing this afternoon, to be one of the most important Votes.

It is a pity that the hon the Minister received less from the Treasury than he initially asked for in order to fully address this aspect. I hope that the sum which the hon the Minister received for housing, will largely contribute to the relief of the housing shortage particularly of the backward communities in my constituency. I am thinking, for example, of Zastron. I once again want to present the problem of Jagersfontein to hon members. I am talking about Rouxville, Luckhoff, Petrusburg, Reddersburg, Springfontein, Bethulie and Jacobsdal. I hope that this budget will also address the problem of the school hostel accommodation, which we are experiencing to such an extent in the rural areas of Southern Free State. I hope that the department will actively engage in the development or building of hostels at Fauresmith, Trompsburg and Koffiefontein, as was promised. Hon members are aware that we have a problem in the Southern Free State with regard to clinics and community centres and that this is one of the most important projects that have been neglected and which we would have liked to see developed.

To return to the speech which the hon the Minister made here this afternoon, I want to talk about a few aspects of his argument. We welcome the self-help building scheme, as long as it is going to be used as an option as opposed to the conventional provision of housing to relieve the housing shortage of our people. The hon the Minister said in his speech said that the self-help building scheme was here to stay and that the people who were prepared to accept the challenge, would soon find that the department would give priority to the development of such a scheme in their area.

The hon the Minister also mentioned that the self-help building scheme required enthusiasm, initiative and organisation. I believe that this scheme is working in certain areas, and I can vouch for the fact that beautiful houses have been developed under this scheme in the rural area of Oppermansgronde.

There is no doubt that this project can be applied successfully in certain areas, but when it falls into the hands of certain irresponsible people and is not correctly applied, administered and controlled, it can go wrong. For that reason I want to agree with the hon the Minister that it should be regarded as an option and not as compulsory. I agree with him that it should be used as one of the options to relieve the housing shortage in South Africa, particularly among the backward communities in our areas.

Many of our MPs are still very concerned and doubtful about the success of this project, and we ask ourselves why, if this project is so successful, it is not applied in the Administration: House of Assembly.

I must also agree with the hon the Minister when he expresses great concern about the costs of municipal services such as water, sewerage, electricity and refuse removal which are exorbitantly high in certain areas. In many areas these costs are higher than the rentals for houses. To my disappointment, there are two or more municipalities in my constituency of Southern Free State which are guilty of this impoverishment of our people. These municipalities have taken the gap and are squeezing every last drop of life-blood out of our people. Like the hon the Minister, I am grateful that this matter is now receiving attention at a high level.

I want to sincerely thank the hon the Minister for the funds which his department has made available for the upgrading of residential areas in my constituency. I also want to say thank you in anticipation of the funds which are going to be made available for the erection of houses and the upgrading of existing houses in my constituency. I have already mentioned the towns in question, and I am saying thank you in advance for what is going to be done. I believe and I know that these towns are going to be developed within the next six months.

I am grateful that the hon the Minister also mentioned the matter of home ownership and the rising interest rates, because our people are finding this a headache. Very few of them will be able to afford the instalment which, as the hon the Minister mentioned, has now exceeded 40%. The State cannot remain aloof with regard to the problem of our people. Something will have to be done to assist our people in overcoming the dilemma in which they find themselves.

I want to conclude by making an urgent appeal to the body which is dealing with the proclamation of areas, to dispose of the proclamation of areas as quickly as possible. What the hon member said in his speech is quite true. That long period of waiting before an area is proclaimed, causes problems. The expectations which are raised and the subsequent long waiting period cause frustration. They cause people to become frustrated, restless and angry. Accusations are then levelled at MPs, to the effect that they are not doing their work. However, the poor man is hair out. He often wishes that he could sign that deed himself, but he does not have the power to do so. That rests with one man. As soon as that long waiting period is eliminated, many of our problems will be solved.

Finally, I want to thank the hon the Minister’s department for the upgrading and the improvement of the infrastructure, housing and the improvement of the standard of living in the towns and residential areas in my constituency. It means a lot to our people and it is a pleasure to behold.

Debate interrupted.

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I believe I dealt in sufficient detail with the budget as a whole last Thursday at the Tabling of the Estimates for 1989-90, and I therefore intend to limit myself to discussing in somewhat more detail the two Votes for which I am responsible, namely Vote No 1—“Budgetary and Auxiliary Services” and Vote No 5—“Improvement of Conditions of Service”.

Vote No 1: Budgetary and Auxiliary Services

As is evident from the printed Estimates, my own department needs R17 646 000 for the financial year to continue with the services it must render, as well as certain expansions which are needed to render an efficient auxiliary service to all departments of this administration. In the explanatory memorandum I have already outlined the main reasons for this increase. What follows should be considered detail.

Financial Administration

Reliable accounting is regarded as essential when disbursing or receiving public moneys. The Directorate: Financial Administration not only guards against overspending voted funds, but must also apply strict control to ensure that money is spent only on services approved by this House. The Auditor-General’s staff, in their appreciated monitoring of our actions, assist not only myself but also our accounting officer and the financial personnel in guarding the taxpayer’s money.

I wish to express my appreciation to the Auditor-General, not only for the increased staff complement rendering assistance, but also for affording previous members of my staff advancement in their office. I hope these officials will benefit by and utilise the opportunity afforded them.

Personnel Management

Many demands were made on the Directorate: Personnel Management over the last twelve months. On the one hand it had to cope with the ever-increasing needs of the community, especially in the fields of health and housing and the consequent unavoidable demand for more staff from the line function departments. On the other hand there is, and hon members will know, a moratorium imposed by the Cabinet on the creation of posts. To satisfy the needs under these circumstances required the optimum utilisation of available staff.

During the period 1 March 1988 to 28 February 1989, 779 appointments were processed. Of these 491, or 63%, were educators whilst the remaining 288 were appointed to the various occupational classes. Let me assure hon members that the majority of these appointments, especially those in the non-teaching sector, do not in any way represent what critics dearly love to call “inflating an already bloated public service”. They are largely replacements for staff who left our administration for one reason or another. Our fixed establishment has, in fact, increased by 1,3% to date.

Unfortunately we have not been able to fill all our vacancies. The majority of these vacancies are in highly specialised occupation groups, mainly in the Departments of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture and of Health Services and Welfare. Notwithstanding regular advertising in the media, we still cannot secure the services of sufficient suitable candidates. I again want to appeal through this House to students to make use of the information available on careers in the public service and offer themselves for training and service in these fields.

During the year under review 352 promotions, of which 170 were educators, were finalised. I do not find it necessary to belabour this aspect. It will be sufficient to say that we are an equal opportunity organisation.

In my speech last year, I mentioned that the statistics with regard to the number of charges of misconduct being laid against officers in the administration, might get worse before getting better. Regrettably, my predictions were correct. During the year under review the Directorate: Personnel Management processed 15 charges of misconduct—5 more than the previous year. In an organisation as large as ours, we surely cannot expect Utopia. However, let it be known to errant officials that we are certainly trying our best and that retribution is now more certain than in the past.

During the period under review 136 officials in all departments of the administration retired. Of these 70 were unfortunately occasioned by continued ill-health. May I, on behalf of all hon members of this House, record our sincere thanks for their services and wish them well in their retirement.

Efficiency Services

The Subdirectorate: Efficiency Services undertook an assorted number of investigations of varying complexity during the past financial year. A total of 70 investigations were completed of which 30 could be classified as major investigations. These latter investigations covered aspects of procedures and methods, organisation and establishment requirements, the determination of standards and privatisation of functions.

Where the scope of services rendered to the community is being broadened despite financial limitations, noticeably as far as the Department of Health Services and Welfare is concerned, the Subdirectorate: Efficiency Services made valuable contributions towards the establishment of several new institutions. These include Hazelmere House, the rehabilitation centre at Newlands West, the assessment centre at Phoenix, Stonebridge Community Centre, new regional offices at Stanger and Umzinto, as well as an in-depth review of the social auxiliary and office auxiliary services components of that department.

Data-processing Services

In any modern organisation the utilisation of computers cannot be brushed aside. In this administration a variety of approaches is taken. We utilise bureaux services, where economical, and personal computers at the other end of the scale if it serves our purpose. By utilising every resource accessible, we have been able to limit capital expenditure.

However, from time to time it becomes necessary to acquire certain facilities to ensure effectiveness even at a point in time when we would have preferred to prevent such expenditure. During the new financial year we will have to obtain certain peripheral equipment to enable us to utilise the personnel management systems, ie Persal, and the standard debtor system—which will enable us to attain direct control over our housing schemes—and to enable managers at various levels to utilise available data, which to date had to remain unused. Especially as the total top structure of the administration has to rely on telecommunication during parliamentary sessions, this is considered to be money well spent.

Provisioning Administration

The Provisioning Administration division, in the main, services all schools and colleges which fall under the control of the Department of Education and Culture by procuring, through the medium of official contracts, and providing a vast array of scholastic material required for use at such institutions. This administration possesses the necessary infrastructure to store and despatch the schools’ requisitions efficiently and expeditiously.

In addition to this all-important function which ensures that the educational activities at schools are not curtailed through a possible shortage of supplies, Provisioning Administration also provides a variety of furniture and equipment required by the logistics section of the four departments under the control of the Administration: House of Delegates. A new provisioning administration system, which is now compulsory for all State departments, is being implemented. This will facilitate more efficient management of stores and afford less opportunity for misappropriation. It is anticipated that the Provisioning Administration will, as always, meet the challenges it will have to face and achieve new heights in the coming year.

General

Hon members may have noted that my department also renders certain civic services to the community. These include not only electoral matters, but a variety of services ranging from participation in preventing publications and films offensive to our community entering the country, to assistance with enquiries regarding immigrants and visitors to our country. I wish to invite hon members to contact my department directly with their enquiries, which we will gladly deal with.

Hon members may not be aware of the fact that a large portion of their enquiries to other departments, such as those to the Department of Home Affairs, are delayed because our inputs are required before an answer can be provided. By approaching my department directly, answers to enquiries can be expedited.

I now want to address an issue which I, as the Minister responsible for the public service in the administration, must vouch for. In the recent past both the administration and I were criticised for apparently not acting expeditiously and boldly enough after evidence was given before the Thaver Committee and the James Commission. I want to assure hon members that the necessary actions have been put in motion—none are easy and some go beyond departmental enquiries, while others will doubtless involve litigation. Almost all are therefore sub judice and details cannot be furnished at this stage. However, hon members must please rest assured that the matters raised in the Thaver and James reports are receiving proper attention and will be reported on in this House at the appropriate time. Meanwhile it really serves no purpose to rake over the muck in largely repetitive debate.

At the same time the administration is involved in 16 “ordinary” court cases arising from a variety of situations. These are not only expensive, but require time-consuming inputs by senior staff to the detriment of their line functions. I can only hope that we will eventually be able to reduce all this drama to a minimum by straight dealing, closer drafting of contracts, closer supervision of projects, and so on. We are not afraid to have our actions tested in court, but I regret the present level of litigation and will do all I can, consistent with our legitimate interests, to reduce same.

My Vote, Budgetary and Auxiliary Services, consists of two programmes, namely: Programme 1: Administration, and Programme 2: Associated and Supporting Services. The reasons for the increase in both programmes have, as I have stated earlier, been dealt with in my budget speech. Consequently I would like to take this opportunity to inform hon members how I intend utilising the required funds for the financial year 1989/1990.

Programme 1: Administration.

Funds required: R11 323 000.

Subprogrammes: Chairman of Ministers’ Council, Minister and Ministerial Representatives

Provision is only being made for salaries and allowances. Administrative, transport and personnel expenditure are provided for under the subprogramme: Administrative Auxiliary Services.

Subprogramme: Management

Provision is made for all expenditure relating to the Director-General and the Chief Director: Budgetary and Auxiliary Services.

Subprogramme: Administrative Auxiliary Services

This subprogramme provides for the emoluments, administrative and other expenses, of approximately 300 officials rendering personnel and financial administration, as well as other auxiliary services to the administration. All administrative and other expenses in respect of the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, ministerial representatives and myself are also provided here.

Programme 2: Associated and Supporting Services

Funds required: R6 323 000.

As its name indicates, this programme caters for various associated and supporting services subprogrammes.

1. (i) Subprogramme: Services to Citizens—Provision is made for the rendering of services in respect of electoral and civic matters.
2. (ii) Subprogramme: Computer Services—Data-processing services are rendered by my department to all four departments in the Administration: House of Delegates.
3. (iii) Subprogramme: Stores Administration—Funds required will be utilised to provide supplies for all four departments.
4. (iv) Subprogramme: Ministers’ Council Secretariat—Provision is made for personnel and administrative expenditure of officials rendering general auxiliary services to the Ministers.
5. (v) Subprogramme: Pensions—Provision is made for pensions payable to former members of the SA Indian Council and their dependants. Hon members will notice that provision has been made to increase pensions by 10% with effect from 1 April 1989.
6. (vi) Subprogramme: Study Assistance to Officials—Provision is made for class and examination fees in respect of officials in all four departments of the administration enrolling for tertiary courses.
7. (vii) Subprogramme: Media Services—Provision is made for personnel and administrative expenditure in respect of media services to the community.
8. (viii) Subprogramme: Audit Fees—Provision is made to compensate the Auditor-General for services rendered to the Administration: House of Delegates.

Vote No 5: Improvement of Conditions of Service

As far as Vote 5: Improvement of Conditions of Service is concerned, this Vote provides for a receptacle for transfer payments from the Vote of the Commission for Administration for improvement of conditions of service in a particular financial year. Hon members are aware of the fact that officers and employees of the State received a general salary increase as from 1 January 1989, the carry-over effect of which, as indicated in my budget speech, is included in the normal appropriation per Vote.

In the new financial year an amount of R1 184 000 shown in the Vote for 1989-90 is intended to cover the cost of revised service dispensations during the year for several occupational classes and certain groups which have not as yet reached salary parity. The amount will be utilised to cover as yet uncertain, but anticipated shortfalls on the other four Votes which cannot be met from internal savings.

Mr Chairman, I wish to comment on the policy speech of the hon the Minister of the Budget. I wish to start off by referring to the following comment he made:

Mr Chairman, I am most appalled by this statement. I realise that the hon the Minister has to work under serious constraints as a result of certain allocations from the Treasury to his department. However, at the same time, these departments need highly specialised people. Universities and technikons should be consulted. These institutions should have been approached to train specialised staff. I have conducted investigations at these institutions and have found that there are a number of people who qualify in these fields.

There is a Bill that is going to come up for discussion shortly, namely the Social Work Amendment Bill. This Bill restricts social workers who should be employed to do social work. It was found that there were a number of qualified social workers who could not find employment because unqualified people were doing their jobs. The question of their not being able to find employment therefore seems intriguing. I want to ask the hon the Minister to look into this matter as a second thought.

I have very limited time at my disposal, but I want to refer to a very important issue, namely that of ministerial representatives, whom I have termed “silent Ministers”. I would like to know from the hon the Minister to whom these people are responsible and answerable. What do they do? I ask this, because there are secretarial services at hon Ministers’ disposal. I am also informed that an amount of R375 000 has been appropriated to them for the past year. A large sum of money was appropriated for salaries payable to these people. We do not get any reports from them, like other hon Ministers do. All we know is that they are being used in the various provinces by certain hon Ministers for certain jobs. Are they not accountable to Parliament? Parliament pays their salaries, because they are ministerial representatives. They should therefore be accountable to Parliament. Alternatively, these portfolios should be done away with.

Hear, hear!

The hon Ministers themselves should be proficient enough to give us the reports that are designed for each portfolio. I do not think that ministerial representatives are necessary under the present regime and they should be dispensed with.

The other aspect that I want to discuss is the hon the Minister’s mention of tertiary courses. The various employees of the Administration: House of Delegates are encouraged to do certain tertiary courses. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether a department encourages the staff to do a tertiary course or whether they have to request the department for such a course.

As has been said certain vacancies are invariably filled by inadequately equipped staff. These are the people that should be encouraged to do the necessary courses in order to do the specialised jobs in the various departments, and especially in the Departments of Health Services and Welfare and of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture. These are the most sensitive issues in our community and therefore these members of staff should be encouraged and adequately equipped to do the tertiary courses. I have asked the hon the Minster to encourage the tertiary courses within the departments so that we do not run short of specialised people doing specialised jobs.

The other aspect that I want to mention is a media service for the community. I wonder whether this is the Fiat Lux that the hon the Minister is talking about. I know that wherever Ministers were garlanded in the past Fiat Lux was very prominent. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to compliment the hon member for Bayview on what he said about specialised personnel. The question of specialised personnel in various departments cannot be over-emphasised but in the infancy stages I am satisfied that the hon the Minister of the Budget is doing his utmost.

I merely want to highlight a few aspects that I have noticed. I brought this matter up last year and also in the Part Appropriation debate earlier this year. I do not want it to be misunderstood but for information purposes I want to refer to our parliamentary staff.

In the Part Appropriation debate I mentioned that the bulk of our parliamentary staff comes from Durban. I highlighted this and made a very special appeal that it should perhaps be considered that these members of the personnel be considered for either additional flight tickets or 20% concessions.

The hon the Minister rightly pointed out that there were three Houses in this Parliament. That is how he evaluated the situation. However, perhaps I might remind him of the fact that the bulk of the parliamentary personnel of the House of Delegates comes from Durban. If consideration is given to this matter at all I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to just allow our personnel from Durban what they are entitled to at the moment, because these circumstances are weighing a little heavily on them.

In his main budget speech the hon the Minister spoke about the unemployment situation in the country and he also highlighted the fact that about 10 000 people were unemployed. I understand that the funds that were being considered for these casual workers amounted to approximately R8 per day and were to come from the labour scheme of the Department of Manpower. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to consider their importance. Although the funds come from the general affairs coffers, I want to ask whether we could not perhaps consider subsidising from our budget whatever is being paid from the general affairs budget, to help these casual employees who are earning approximately R8 a day, and also whether we could not look at the possibility of finding some permanency for them. As long as we have unemployment we will have frustration. Unemployment contributes to the deterioration of the quality of life.

Looking at staff matters again, I want to refer to catering for staff members. The Public Service Union caters for the staff at the restaurant of the Malgate Building. When we go into that restaurant we find that our staff is well catered for. Unfortunately, in the parliamentary situation we are back at square one because our staff are not allowed to either have or even buy a meal. I would appreciate it if some consideration could be given to the idea that our staff should enjoy at least that facility.

My hon colleague spoke about the Public Service. I know that there have been tremendous improvements over the past few years. Within our own department we have own affairs matters as opposed to general affairs. When this division took place, staff members from the House of Delegates were transferred and now fall under the control of own affairs. Over the years certain staff members of the House of Delegates were promoted in accordance with their services whereas those working under own affairs were perhaps not considered so satisfactorily. We would like them to be considered too and I hope that my hon colleague will look into this so that those members of staff who are manning the own affairs department will not be at a disadvantage. Perhaps this matter can be taken up with the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Mr Chairman, it is usually a pleasure to listen to the hon member for Bayview and I would like to start off by agreeing with what he said. I agree that the offices of the ministerial representatives should be scrapped because they are not functional, they were never really desired, they are not desirable and the honourable gentlemen who occupy those posts have no real work to do. They function more as very low-key public relations officers. That money could be far better spent on other urgent necessities which the community needs desperately.

I would also like to refer to what the hon member for Bayview said in regard to the apparent paucity of applications for certain high-grade posts advertised by the department. I have no doubt that the personnel is available in the country. However, there is not the perception that the department is an equal-opportunity employer. Qualified Blacks and members of the Coloured community are therefore not aware that they may apply for these posts. An equal-opportunity employer implies that a job is available to anyone, regardless of race or colour, and not only to so-called Indians and Whites.

There is another relevant factor, and perhaps hon members in this House can help in this regard. I know of a number of instances where highly qualified members of the Indian group, as defined in the Group Areas Act, refuse to be employed by the House of Delegates Administration because they think that if they do that they will become part of the tricameral system and that some of the bad odour clinging to the House of Delegates will pass to the administration as well because of the corruption that existed in the administration in the past. Perhaps all of us could speak to these people and let them understand that they should really apply.

The hon the Minister has told us that 491 educators were subject to appointment. Unfortunately, what he did not tell us was that in these appointments—and particularly where promotional posts were concerned—there was a great deal of “verneukery”, even as recently as the latest batch.

One woman holding a very high post, working in collusion with a man also holding a very high post, both in the Department of Education, worked out a plan. Evidence was given before the James Commission by the hon Mr Thaver that teachers were offered promotions as bribes in order for them to support the NPP. Those teachers who were prepared to be bribed sent their names to the hon Mr Thaver who then had to process them and send them along to a senior official—we do not want to mention names here. This in fact happened. That senior official and the other woman had instructions from the former hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council to favour certain teachers—whom I said were being bribed with offers of promotion if they supported the NPP—and what happened was that this woman was then sent by the man to schools, very often to reprocess work that had been done by inspectors, with a view to upgrading the favoured candidates and downgrading those who were not favoured by the former hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. That is corruption at a very high level.

I am not saying they are subject to any proceedings which are sub judice. Sub judice means “under the control of a court”. We have heard—the hon the Minister has not told us, we read it in the newspapers—that three people have been suspended pending charges being made against them. I assume that they will be prosecuted before a quasi-judicial tribunal, that is why I am not mentioning the names of those people. However, these are matters which must concern the hon the Minister and the administration.

Also, we trust that a stop has been put to this kind of nonsense. The former hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council gave instructions that there were too many South Indians. There must be no discrimination based on language, religion, race, caste or colour in appointments. I trust that every time a post is advertised, the fact that it is an equal-opportunity employer is specifically mentioned, as the Durban City Council does and other authorities do.

I want to refer to just one little matter. We saw recently in the newspapers that a so-called civic leader went to a school and assaulted a teacher. I believe that, quite apart from any criminal prosecution that may ensue, that teacher should be assisted by the State to sue the assailant for damages arising out of that assault—not only for the physical damages but also for the contumelia that was involved. That so-called civic leader should really be made to pay very heavily indeed.

Last Saturday I was at the Cambury Ridge School which was opened officially by the Chief Executive Director. In his speech some very good points were made. I am pretty sure that the hon the Minister and his colleague the hon the Minister of Education and Culture will take note of those points. I applaud the forward-looking attitude exemplified by the Chief Executive Director.

I want to move quickly to the question of provisioning supplies for the administration. In the first place we would like a categorical assurance from the hon the Minister that all supplies which are acquired for the administration’s purposes will be on a strict tender basis and that no nonsense will be tolerated whereby somebody gives a list of names to Mr G K Nair and he simply tries to get his so-called advisory committee to rubberstamp that list. There is no reason whatsoever why this equivalent of the State Tender Board should not handle every single aspect. I realise that with school books there is a ring established with regard to prices. However, that should not deter the department.

The same principles should apply to every other purchase made by the department. We know what has happened in the Department of Education and Training. We know the kind of thing that could happen, therefore every step should be taken to prevent its occurrence.

In that regard I also wish to mention that there was a time when every school had its own caretaker. That caretaker was available throughout the day, with the result that the electric current was not unnecessarily consumed by whole schools being lit up all night. The department pays for that electricity. Supervision Services, or whatever the firm is called, quite frankly are not really necessary. We ought to go back to the old system. There is no reason why one firm should make a profit on the employment of these labourers when a caretaker and the full-time labourers can see to it that the classrooms are kept neat and tidy all the time.

I want to deal with the subprogrammes relating to the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, the Ministers and ministerial representatives, part of which I have already dealt with. I referred last week to the excellent contribution made in the President’s Council by the national chairman of Solidarity, Mr Ismail Omar, whose words I referred to with approbation in this House. I do not think the hon member for Glenview understood that I really supported what his chairman had said. His chairman had said: “There are too many Ministers. Six Ministers are doing the work that one Minister used to do.”

His chairman said exactly what the hon member for Bayview said, namely that there was no need for ministerial representatives. There was no need for the hon member for Glenview to get cross about it. He said: “We do our best; however, we do it out of honesty and conviction.” Now, Sir, I have never made a personal attack on the integrity of the hon member for Glenview. I will say that at a personal level he, personally and in his business relations, would never tolerate any of the kinds of things that are being tolerated by him in political matters.

In political matters I have been very trenchant in my criticism of that hon member. I was very, very critical when, through a coalition, he joined the Ministry headed by the former hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. I was very critical of his remaining the Leader of the Official Opposition while he became a Minister. I was very critical of his collusion in what I referred to as the stabbing in the back—using a Rolls Royce knife—of the hon member for North Western Cape, Dr M S Padayachy. I was very critical of his failure to oppose very strongly the two security Bills—the amendment to the Internal Security Act and the amendment to the Public Safety Act. I am also critical of the fact that for some reason his party have removed from debate in this House the consideration of the second access road to Chatsworth, which the hon member for Bayview has struggled very hard to get onto the agenda over the last four years. This is a matter which affects 250 000 of the people living in that area, and I am critical of Solidarity for that. I am also critical of the fact that some members of his party—the hon member himself has never said this—say “we Tamils must get together”.

That is rubbish. [Interjections.]

Well, I do not know how the hon member for Glenview can say that it is rubbish unless he knows about it! I am just trying to give him an opportunity for self-exoneration. This has happened. Members of his party have come to me. People have telephoned me, and my attitude is that in my home I am a Tamilian; in my Tamil school I am a Tamilian; but in my public life I am a South African, and I do not tolerate any of that kind of nonsense. [Interjections.]

Name them.

It is true that at a time when the NPP was riding high, and we had a horrible situation in this House, I did say to the hon members for Central Rand and Lenasia West, Mr Denis Pillay: “Why do you not join J N Reddy and give him a majority so that we can unseat the other fellow?” That is perfectly true. I do not deny that. However, I never said to anyone: “Come over and join Solidarity and we will make you Chairman of the House; we will remove someone else as Chairman of the House.” As I said the other day, that is disgusting.

I never countenanced anyone going to the hon the Chairman of the House to tell him to resign. That is disgusting because that sets on its head the statement the hon member for Glenview made about honesty. He said they did it out of honesty and conviction. We would like the hon member for Glenview to give us his word in this House that his party has no intention of playing games, as he put it, with the chairmanship of this House or any official position in this House, offering bribes or inducements to anyone to support their party.

What is the chairmanship of the House? It is an august position, it is a position paid for from public funds and I dare say the hon member will never tolerate that kind of scandalous conduct in his personal life; he will never tolerate it in his business activities. Why does the hon member allow that kind of thing to happen here?

Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon member a question. Does he believe that a Chairman of the House, a Minister or anyone else for that matter, must be allowed to continue holding office, irrespective of the manner in which that man conducts himself? I am not naming anyone in particular.

If any Chairman of any House behaves badly, then the House has the right to remove him. The hon the Chairman of this House has, since he became the Chairman, behaved impeccably in carrying out his duties as chairman—and I can vouch for this. [Interjections. ] If the hon member will tell me now that the motive was not to give a reward to somebody who had joined his party, let him say so honestly and with conviction.

Thank you for answering the question.

Yes, but the hon member has not answered my question. When the opportunity arises, I expect the hon member to answer out of honesty and conviction. The rules which we apply to ourselves in our private lives, must also apply to our public lives.

I quickly want to move to another matter because my time is limited. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is unfortunate that the hon member for Reservoir Hills was not in a position to complete his speech. During the latter part of his speech he may have made some worthy contributions. The 10 minutes which he took in this House was valuable time which could have been well used by other hon members to make some improvements, rather than the garbage of the last 10 to 15 minutes.

The hon member is noted for that, and this is a matter of personality. He has something against my hon leader and against the hon the Minister of the Budget, so he uses this forum to expose his inner feelings. I hope he will realise from now on that we are dealing with budget Votes and that these are very important aspects as far as the taxpayer is concerned. He should devote more of his time to dealing with those important aspects than to character assassination.

I have made calls in this House in the past and at this stage I am deeply concerned to note that there are 928 personnel who are in the R3 000 to R6 000 salary scale. I made an appeal here some four years ago when the then Chairman of the Ministers’ Council took exception to my call. His reply was that the people who were earning these low salaries were subject to the Public Service Commission and their salary structure was fixed by them.

I want to draw the attention of this House to the fact that these very people who are in that salary category are also people who require our welfare services. I am sure that the people who are in this category are mostly from the Black community, and there could be many Indians. Going by the figure of 928 people who are earning between R250 to R500 per month, I would like to know if that is in any way a living wage in the present time.

I would like to ask the hon the Minister and the hon the Acting Chairman of the Ministers’ Council to look into this and to make the necessary representations to the Commission for Administration to uplift the quality of life of these people who are—I take it as far as the record is concerned—probably temporary staff.

We have the same situation with the Departments of Posts and Telecommunications and of Transport Services. The easiest way they can get out of it is by saying that these people are temporary staff. However, many of them have been working there for more than 20 to 25 years. I think this is a very important aspect. It affects our Black community in general, and even if there are Whites who fall in that category, it is a shame, because I cannot imagine how one could survive on a wage of R250 to R500.

I want to deal with the question of ministerial representatives. The hon member for Bayview rightly said that this was a waste of taxpayers’ money. I believe the ministerial representatives were appointed for one specific purpose, namely to promote the NPP. Their task, I think, has now come to an end, and this important aspect should be looked at. We will be able to save a substantial amount of money, and the fringe benefits which went with that.

In the main budget speech of the hon the Minister I noticed something which, again, the hon member for Bayview touched upon, namely the question of vacancies arising from personnel leaving the department. It is sad to note that highly specialised personnel have left. Let us look at this. Furthermore, I wish to highlight, as did the hon member for Bayview, the fact that these are personnel dealing with health services and housing, which are our prime causes for being in the House of Delegates. If these people are lost to the private sector, we have to evaluate and establish their reasons for leaving the public service. If they are not well paid, and their fringe benefits are not as lucrative as that in the private sector, it is important that we evaluate these. Consideration must be given to this as a matter of priority, because it says here that they are people who are very highly specialised in this field.

I note that the administration is presently involved in 16 court cases. I do not know whether this is an extraordinary occurrence this year, or whether this is an ongoing thing. If so, litigation is a very expensive business and I believe emphasis should be placed on this so as to curtail as much expenditure as possible. However, if it is because of extraordinary circumstances, due to the bad old days of the past, and we are now approaching the light, I hope that this will be curtailed to a large extent so that we will be able to save much more on litigations and put this to good use for the taxpayer.

I also note that there is a call for people to join the public service. The hon the Minister has emphasised the fact that a call is being made to young aspiring university students. In this regard, I believe it is important to offer study loans, because we have to qualify our people today, so that they will be of service tomorrow. How are we going to do this when there is a decrease year after year? There should be greater encouragement to these people to join the public service. The only way this can be done is by offering them study loans, because there are many who are aspiring, but they do not have the financial means to do so.

Also in the budget speech of the hon the Minister some reference is made to assistance to officials. I hope that the officials that are being referred to are officials of the lower income groups and not of the higher income groups. If it is the intention of the department to update the lower income groups and give them more knowledge and to assist them with loans and examination fees, I will not dwell much on this. However, if is is for senior officials, I think they are well paid, and if they are well paid I cannot see any reason to supplement them with this extra cost.

I would also like to bring to the hon the Minister’s attention that there are other departments which do offer assistance to officials, but these loans are repayable. I would like him to look into this aspect to see whether it may be feasible to improve their quality of life by giving them the opportunity financially, so that they could be in a position to repay these expenses.

My final call to the hon the Minister regards the welfare of our very own staff that are employed by the House of Delegates. I am talking about officials and clerks, who travel from here to Durban. I would like to point out in particular that the cultural lifestyle of the Indian clerk who works in Durban differs greatly from that of a White man or anybody else. We have our ties with our community. I think hon members will agree with me that we have great moral obligations to our families. We have social functions, functions of a specific nature, marriages and deaths and it is imperative that we have to be there. It is unlike the other groups, which I cannot vouch for as I have not been involved in their cultural activities. However, in this regard I think we must look much further, because they are tremendously hard-pressed as far as air travel facilities are concerned. The limited number of air tickets from here to Durban is not within their means and if it is not possible to increase the number of tickets because it is a policy of the Government to keep it in line with the other departments—the House of Representatives and the House of Assembly—then we must at the same time look at the cultural backgrounds of those Indians who have sacrificed greatly to come here. This should be looked at in the spirit in which I present my case on their behalf. If there could be contingency amounts set aside for cases of emergency, of a nature best assessed by the hon the Minister, then the matter should be considered with a view to alleviating the hardships they are experiencing at present.

Mr Chairman, I am unable to resist the temptation to pay tribute to the hon the Minister of the Budget, his Lordship of the Exchequer, who, in order to belittle a humble soul, had to venture to the extent of ameliorating in a mode of discreet idiosyncracy, a very well-known term in the slang vocabulary. I shall intimate a Shakespearean idiom in diluted words, for purposes of connotation, as follows:

Thus I am quite aware of the physical and other differences between my elbow, my arm and anything else that he might have contemplated, conceived, imagined or even withheld the expounding of or beheld for his own purpose.

I am grateful for the fact that owing to frustration or some unbeknown intuition, out of the 45 participants in this Chamber, 43 being on the floor, his Lordship quite advertently barked up the wrong tree and has specifically elected to project his venomous arrows to the target of one particular humble soul, so much so that even with undubious intent implicate the modest entity to a motion or expressed thought of another completely different author.

What is this? Is it poetry?

It is for the hon the Minister to understand. He used the poetry on Friday.

Let it be known that unjustified rectification or repudiation or even refutation will not compensate for a wrong to be deemed right in any way whatsoever. It is rather difficult, nay, impossible to swallow a disgorge.

In one breath the tempo of trepidation is so obvious and clear that the hidden crevices illuminate brightly when at the next moment it becomes imperative, just to swell the numerical order, the justification of the utterance to clear away contradictions manifest themselves. These imposters cannot remain hidden. Let me now give hon members the true, undiluted version of Shakespeare, who says:

Please bear in mind that when life is done owing to the honour being departed, then the restoration thereof will become impracticable, even with all the efforts exerted, and undue attempts will be in vain.

The hon the Minister is fully aware of what I am talking about. However, the deity of every belief looks at the feelings and innermost depths of the heart, and not the outward appearance of the flowery representation of a sinister moulding. God punishes every evil in His own way and according to a wisdom best known to Him. If we bear this in mind, our actions shall always be directed at good things which will be to the benefit of ourselves and everyone around us.

Let us view life in its true and proper perspective, without intending undue harm and unjustified disparage to the harmless innocent. Despite the fact that I may regard myself as an insignificant entity, I am not that in the eyes of the Lord. My Creator has given my life some substance.

If one is appointed and not elected to the House of Delegates, it is not a question of what you know, but whom you know. [Interjections.] It is an open secret that even a ministerial post costs money in the House of Delegates.

How much?

Plenty of money! Thousands! Money is an imposter which knows and speaks all languages.

All types of undertakings have certain peculiar affiliations. The silver bullet penetrates very stealthily and reaches its mark in a most remarkable manner.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I submit with respect that the hon member is speaking very widely. He should confine himself to Votes 1 and 5.

Mr Chairman, please ask hon members on the other side not to waste my time.

Order! The hon member must confine himself strictly to the budget.

I am confining myself to the budget, Sir. If this is a way of life, the expectations of heavenly blessings are nil. This can be seen in the prevailing instability in this House, notwithstanding all the intelligence that is displayed here.

I fully agree with the hon member for Bayview that the portfolios of ministerial representatives should be abolished completely. In my view, a good deal of money is being wasted. These funds could be used for the good of our people.

I have to highlight a very important issue, namely the pilgrimage or Haj of the Muslim community. As far as Muslims are concerned, the Haj is the cornerstone of their religion. Every Muslim who can afford the journey, is obliged to perform Haj at least once in his lifetime. For this purpose funds are accumulated in dribs and drabs from life savings to fulfil this very important religious obligation.

I understand that some teachers were deprived of performing this facet or tenet of Islam, because they required an extra day or two, or perhaps more, from their unpaid leave which the department emphatically refused to grant them. This country enjoys religious freedom and I therefore wish to plead in all sincerity and humility that no unnecessary stumbling blocks be laid in the path of the sincere ones and those who are here to serve their people. The teaching fraternity are here for the good of our people. I do not think they should be deprived of this little favour. It is not even a favour, because they did not ask for paid leave, but unpaid leave.

If we could all put our minds to the good of our country, we will do good, but …

Time expired!

The Chairman is busy with other matters, so I can take my time.

Order! The hon member may proceed.

I wish to thank the hon Whip on the other side, but the Chairman is prepared to let me continue.

We are here for the good of the people. If hon members want to indulge in the evil that prevails in this House, they will fail to show that there is stability in this House. In fact, what we have is a false surface. On the surface it may seem that we have stability, but in the meantime there is no stability at all. It is all unstable. If this is the way hon members are going to …

Order! Instability does not come under the budget speech. Would the hon member please confine himself to the budget? If he does not abide by the ruling of the Chair, I will call upon him to resume his seat.

With all due respect, Mr Chairman, this is an Appropriation Bill and stability is part of this appropriation.

Order! The hon member must resume his seat.

Mr Chairman, I would not like to follow the cue of the hon member for Actonville, because I would then find myself ordered by you to resume my seat.

The furore concerning the book allocations was highlighted in the James Commission and much needed attention was focused on this aspect. The Advisory Allocations Committee serves a useful purpose although it was brought into disrepute by the abuse and misuse of the erstwhile Chairman of the Ministers’ Council.

The Department of Education and Culture annually makes considerable funds available for the provision of school books. Last year an amount of R8,5 million was made available. The Advisory Allocations Committee has to recommend approved booksellers. It has certain criteria by which it makes its recommendations. Booksellers should, for example, be members of the South African Booksellers Association, have proper bookshops carrying reasonable stock and have credit facilities. The services of the booksellers were constantly reviewed in order to ascertain the feasibility of retaining them as suppliers. If their performances were good their allocations would be increased.

Initially the Advisory Allocations Committee worked very well. However, this committee was subjected to unnecessary pressure and its real functions were distorted. This has led to a great deal of dissatisfaction.

The number of Indian booksellers is very small and their fields of supply are limited. It is also a noted fact that members of the South African Book Association have shown prejudice against the Indian members. It is therefore necessary to procure the services of Indian booksellers without having to show a bias towards any particular bookseller. It is State policy that where there is no opportunity for a particular race group to serve its own people, such an anomaly must be addressed.

Indian-owned bookshops are almost entirely dependent on the trade generated by the Indian community. I make an urgent appeal to the hon the Minister of the Budget to ensure that the Indian booksellers are retained and that the stigma of the James Commission concerning them does not interfere with their livelihood.

I am not advocating a return to the misuse and abuse of the Advisory Allocations Committee but rather wish to emphasise that it must justly go about its task to ensure, without any irregularities, that the services of Indian booksellers take preference over any other booksellers in view of the limited field of supply they enjoy.

I have received numerous notices from Indian booksellers to the effect that there is a fear that their interests will be prejudiced. I again wish to appeal to the hon the Minister of the Budget to allay these fears and to prevail upon the department concerned to consider their requests favourably.

While we are discussing this matter I wish to highlight the question of the ministerial representatives in Natal. An amount of R375 000 has been allocated to them and they just drive around in Durban. When we telephone to ask them for assistance they are not available. The R375 000 that we spend on them should be wisely spent by this department. At present there are rent increases that the poor people cannot manage. I suggest that these poor people’s rental should be subsidised with that R375 000.

Increase the pensions.

Yes, I agree. The R375 000 would not suffice to increase pensions but at least those rentals would be subsidised.

Mr Chairman, I am still in a daze after what the hon member for Actonville said before me. I do not know where to start and where to stop.

I want to refer to a matter that has not been provided for in the Estimates by the hon the Minister. This was in response to an answer relating to resorts that was given during the meeting of the Extended Public Committee in the Transvaal.

In the Transvaal we had several resorts run by the Provincial Administration and these resorts were in some way or other closed to people of colour. Representations were made to the administration and the following was the reply given by the MEC in charge. I quote from Hansard, 24 May 1988, col 11544, as follows:

That was more than a year ago. He continues:

This is a matter that has been discussed in this House previously and also in that extended public committee on provincial affairs. These resorts in the Transvaal were financed from general funds appropriated by a general affairs budget.

When we asked why these forty-odd resorts were now closed to people of colour the answer was, as I have just said, that they now fell under own affairs. The hon the Minister did not mention any specific funds appropriated for this matter in his budget speech. We in the Transvaal have lost out.

There were historical resorts like Warmbaths, Middle Baths and Badplaas. Generations of Indians have visited Middle Baths. My grandfather and my father used to go there during the winter months. Those resorts were taken away from our people and placed under the provincial administration. They have now been transferred to own affairs, yet we do not see that any money has been appropriated for these resorts. I think the hon the Minister knows very well what I mean when I speak of Warmbaths. He has seen the resort and some of his family members may even have spent some time there.

The question of the placement of teachers was also touched upon. I hope that the hon the Minister has now found a solution whereby these teachers will be placed in permanent positions and that we will not have to repeat this.

I now come to the upgrading of the posts that are held in regional offices in the Transvaal, both in Johannesburg and in Pretoria. These are very important positions and the rank of a regional representative at both the Pretoria and Johannesburg regional offices is that of assistant director.

We find that a great number of problems and delays are being created in those offices whilst processing applications for building and other types of work. We know that the delays sometimes take years, and I am not exaggerating when I say this. I feel that it is time that the hon the Minister paid more attention to those regional offices. He should get more competent staff there so that certain decisions can be taken there at the offices, as was previously done. We should also consider increasing the offices.

The other problem that we have concerns the situation of these offices. We find that most of them are situated in the centre of town where there is no parking available. They are also far away from the residential areas of the Indians.

We have a regional office of the Department of Health Services and Welfare in Pretoria. That office is situated on the first floor so that elderly people who go there to collect their pensions have to walk up a narrow flight of steps to get to the office. This is completely unsuitable.

I think the department should look into the matter so that these offices can be better situated. I have talked about the possible upgrading of these offices. I think the department must also look into the moral obligations with regard to the business complexes that were promised by the former Department of Community Development and that had to be built. The hon the Minister had not appropriated any money for that project. I think the hon the Minister himself at one stage several years ago visited the Asiatic Bazaar in Pretoria. The full Ministers’ Council and also the hon member for Glenview, the then Minister of the Budget, was present. Up to now, the situation there is as it is. The problem is that no money has been appropriated and no money has been set aside for even looking into the matter. A special committee was appointed some time ago. Consultants were appointed and the reports were submitted, but up to this day we have not found out what has happened to it.

I also want to reiterate what several hon members have said this afternoon. I am specifically going to speak about the ministerial representative in the Transvaal. I think the hon the Minister should outline exactly what his functions are. Is he a political office-bearer? Is he there to assist the Ministers, is he there to arrange meetings, is he there to make promises to people on housing, is he a policy-making person or does he determine policy? This has never been set out and I do not think the regional representative in Transvaal knows. He is also Minister of Education, he is Minister of Housing, he is Minister of Health Services and he is Minister of everything! He takes decisions on all matters that are brought to him. [Interjections.] I am speaking from my own experience of the ministerial representative in the Transvaal.

In the Transvaal we have numerous business complexes that were built by the the Department of Community Development. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to refer to the budget and specifically to Programme 2: Media Services. I note that for the 1988-89 financial year an amount of R490 000 has been voted. This is an increase of R158 000 on the previous financial year’s budget.

I also want to refer to Fiat Lux. I want to know if this magazine is an exclusive magazine for exclusive people or whether it is a record of events for the archives. It would be reasonable to assume, if one looks at the quality of the paper and the print—I am not referring to the substance—that one cannot circulate this to everybody. After all, this magazine is for the information of the people as an educational exercise. If this information does not go out to the ordinary man in the street and the people in general, I think they are wasting very good time, effort and money printing this magazine. I believe the magazine should authentically reflect our Indian people, rather than portray some personality in accordance with the whims and fancies of the individual who is responsible for the article. It is common knowledge that one has to “have contacts” to get oneself into that magazine.

If one looks at some of the pictures portrayed in the magazine I am not surprised that it does not have a universal theme. Chatsworth Stadium, one of the biggest and most beautiful stadiums in Chatsworth, was opened and no publicity was given to this. To compete in such a stadium should have been an inspiration to young and aspiring sportsmen. The Bayview Library became the first computer-serviced library in Southern Durban, but no publicity was given to that. The Silverton Nature Reserve is one of the best in the environs of Durban and today so much emphasis is placed on conservation, but what are we doing about it? It is a beautiful area. People can go out and relax after living in this congested concrete jungle.

It was opened by the wrong person.

However those items are not good enough. Coming back to the public relations officers in the House of Delegates, I should like the hon the Minister of the Budget to give the matter of the appointment of these public relations officers very serious consideration.

Somebody told me that some of the people have to be taken and panelbeaten and spraypainted to give them a personality facelift. I was told that at the last election the public relations officers accounted for 18 000 km in a matter of one month working in the Tongaat area. That was the public relations officers together with the ministerial representative, or whatever it is. I know that the job of the public relations officers was to collect newspaper articles and file them. Sometimes they would call upon others to write speeches for them. Somebody said that one person died of pressure. However, I do not think that would be necessary now, namely for people to write speeches for those inefficient people.

I look forward to a new generation, a new House and a new party that will carry on on its own strength and be honest and sincere enough not to get concocted material from other people to be presented. Therefore these public relations officers who are trying to do party work and are doing other mundane work are wasting our money. When I say “our money”, I refer to our people—I am talking as a South African citizen; not as an Indian. It is our people’s money. Although it is in the budget here, it comes from the Main Budget; we are not unmindful of that fact.

I would call upon the hon the Minister of the Budget to look into this matter. He should either try to get those public relations officers to do the right job or pay them off and appoint someone else.

Mr Chairman, I for one have a lot of respect for the hon member for Reservoir Hills. However, if a man listens to somebody over the telephone and talks about sectionalism in this House, I have no respect for a person like that. I want to be honest: This is not the place to come here and divide our people. We are here to build up our people, not divide them. That hon member is always doing that. I think it is time he pulled himself together.

He also accused the leader of Solidarity of stabbing the hon member for North Western Cape in the back. That is also an untruth. There is no way that has been done.

Can he not speak for himself?

I am speaking for the leader of my party. [Interjections.]

I must compliment the hon the Minister for guarding against overspending and also applying strict control to ensure that money is spent on essential services, and also for guarding the taxpayer’s money.

During the hon the Minister’s speech, he pointed out that 779 appointments were made; 491 were educators, and 288 were appointed to various occupational classes. Talking of appointments to occupational classes: The Administration: House of Delegates have many temporary members of staff, as many other hon members have mentioned here. We believe that temporary staff must be considered for permanent posts. Many people from the outside are being employed on a permanent basis. I believe that in this instance the first opportunity should be given to those who are there on the temporary staff. Some of these temporary staff have been performing their duties very well, and I hope that the hon the Minister will take this into consideration. The temporary clerks have been performing various duties in the respective departments, but to their surprise, people from outside are being considered for permanent posts.

I also want to bring to the hon the Minister’s attention the fact that on 29 February 1988 he said the Department of Budget and Auxiliary Services had 50 vacancies, the Department of Health Services and Welfare 84, the Department of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture 61 and the Department of Education and Culture 46 vacancies.

There are many qualified people with university degrees and I believe the time has come for consideration to be given to some of these young people who are walking the streets looking for employment.

Mr Chairman, I note that the hon member for Chatsworth Central does not respect me. I think I am going to lose all my sleep in future. I do not think I will be able to sleep tonight and I think I am going to be terribly worried for the rest of my life because of that hon member’s particular viewpoint.

I did refer to the back-stabbing with the “Rolls Royce” knife of the hon member for North Western Cape. I will tell hon members how that happened. A coalition was entered into between Solidarity and the NPP. The hon member for Springfield, the hon member for Camperdown, the dear departed hon member for Tongaat and I opposed …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order. I respectfully submit that this discussion has nothing to do with Votes 1 and 5 and it is going to go on like this.

Any ministerial post involves ministerial services, infrastructure and staff.

Order! Would the hon member for Reservoir Hills please indicate how the statements he has been making are connected to the Vote under discussion? The hon member may proceed.

Yes, Sir. I am merely reacting to what the hon member for Chatsworth Central said.

What happened was that a vacancy had to be created. The hon member Dr Padayachy was thrown out just to create a vacancy so that the hon member for Glenview could become a Minister at that time. That is the relevance. It involved ministerial services and salaries of staff.

If anyone dangles a carrot in front of someone else in order to get him to join a political party, it is corruption. It is bribery and we do not want that kind of nonsense in this House. I will go further and say that if a man changes political allegiance for personal gain, there is a word for it and that is prostitution. One must not prostitute even political allegiance. If hon members in this House who talk about the dignity of this House are honest about it they will object to that kind of nonsense in the same way as some of us object to it.

I want to deal with some programmes with regard to administration referred to by the hon the Minister. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to again reconsider the position—and here I am going to mention the name of a member of staff—of Mr S C Naidoo.

Mr S C Naidoo was a victim of the venom of the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. Mr Naidoo, exercising his moral and legal right, supported Solidarity in the 1984 elections—not on the public platform, but as an ordinary individual and an ordinary voter. I say he exercised his legal as well as his moral right. Because he did that, immediately the new regime came into power, instructions were given by the hon member for Arena Park—the then Chairman of the Ministers’ Council—to move Mr S C Naidoo out of his position.

At that time I think he was assistant superintendent dealing with staff matters in the Indian Education Department. That man knew Indian education and staff matters like the back of his hand. He was not a highly articulate man, but he certainly was in a position to assist school principals throughout the country. He was moved out and someone called A K Mohammed, a protegé of the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, was brought in. I think this House knows exactly what the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council did with the help of Mr A K Mohammed and a woman and a man to whom I have referred. An injustice done must be rectified.

What about Tokkie Saayman?

Yes. Of course Mr Tokkie Saayman is no longer in the service of the administration, but he was also badly done by, because the allegation was made by the hon member for Arena Park that he supported Solidarity. I believe that any individual is entitled to support any political party. Just because a man supports Solidarity is no reason whatsoever to victimise him.

A large number of teachers have been victimised by the gerrymandering of scores to which I have referred earlier. I proposed a motion in this House for the appointment of a House Committee to investigate all these cases of undue favouritism and victimisation. Unfortunately, Mr Speaker disallowed that motion and therefore it was not printed on the Order Paper. One has to accept Mr Speaker’s ruling. There is no reason at all why the hon the Minister—who is completely in charge—should not himself appoint a nonpartisan committee of hon members of this House, to be assisted by members of the administration, to sift through every single one of these cases and to provide remedies for those who were victimised. Obviously, there are too many legal difficulties to take steps against all those people who were unfairly promoted and accelerated. Other steps can be taken, and obviously the committee which investigates will have to make a recommendation.

Time is being wasted. The hon the Minister had the opportunity the whole of this year and I criticise him for not having taken the opportunity in order to help the community at large. I am not only talking of the teaching profession, but the schoolchildren and the parents as well. I am talking about bringing a measure of regularity and honesty into the entire teaching profession.

It is a bit embarrassing for me as a member of an opposition party to applaud members of the other party in this House, but the truth must be told. The hon member for Merebank quite rightly made reference to Fiat Lux. Fiat Lux was started shortly after the Department of Indian Affairs was established, as a propaganda medium for the Department of Indian Affairs. When Mr De Wet Van Eyssen was the regional representative, he did me the honour of asking me to assist him by serving on the editorial advisory committee. I declined, because I did not want to have anything to do with any propaganda magazine. The news that is contained in Fiat Lux is usually two months old, it is printed on high gloss, high quality paper and in full colour—an absolute waste of money. Half a million rand is being thrown down the drain. I say to the hon the Minister: Please save that money. Get rid of that magazine which serves no purpose whatsoever, except to glorify a few people, and use that money constructively in other respects.

I also want to deal with the question of staff administration. In common with business, the department does provide a pension service and medical aid service, on a contributory basis, for the staff. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to take that one step further. I know that it is going to be costly. I know there are large numbers of staff involved. However, if business can do it, in order to retain the services of those who are working for the State at the present time, I submit that it is desirable to put into operation a group life insurance cover for all State employees at all levels. This would be on a contributory basis, the State providing 50% of the premium and the employee the other 50%. This would be in the interests of the employees. After all, who are these employees serving? They are serving the public. We here are representatives of the public. The public are the employers and the public must be prepared to see to it that the employees are adequately and satisfactorily provided for.

I just want to deal with another matter. I think the hon the Minister will tell me if a report in a newspaper is correct or incorrect. The report states that Solidarity will oppose all legislation which comes before this House. The hon the Minister must tell us whether that is true or not.

Mr Chairman, I want to be very brief. I want to respond to one or two things that have been—unfortunately—raised in this particular debate. I want to set the record straight. There has been no horse trading, no position offering, nothing whatsoever that I am aware of on this side of the House. I also want to tell hon members who keep raising the issue that, whilst talking about the hon member for North Western Cape, one of the hon members who was still a member of Solidarity at that time met the hon member for North Western Cape at a hotel in Durban. What did they talk about at that hotel in Durban? They did not talk about the weather; they did not talk about bananas and apples; they spoke about position. When the hon member for North Western Cape indicated at the time, whilst he was still a Minister, that there were no positions to offer, the leader of the Solidarity group at that time was one of the hon members sitting across the floor, and he then aborted that meeting. Who is talking about positions, etc? Let us be honest with each other and I trust that we will put an end to this kind of rubbish. Every five minutes we seem to come back to the same old story.

It is apparent to me that some hon members of this House are entitled to disagree with the leader of my party; they are entitled to vote against him and to criticise him politically, but a deliberate character assassination of the leader of my party for their own selfish purposes is unwarranted. I think it is a waste. Hon members talk about a waste of money, but they are wasting taxpayers’ time and effort in this Chamber by talking of that aspect instead of what improvements can be made in the administration and how we can utilise the funds more effectively as far as the budget Votes are concerned.

I want to say to the hon member for Actonville—and it is a pity he is not here in the House—that he makes a big fuss about the issue of ministerial representatives. I also heard other hon members criticise the ministerial representatives. As much as hon members want to believe there were other reasons, one of the reasons why a working arrangement between the NPP and Solidarity broke up at the time, was the issue of the ministerial representatives. The hon Chairman will remember, as he was still on that committee, what the problem was which we encountered in that regard.

Tell us!

We were opposed for the very reason that we believed at the time that it would be used for political ends to promote the interests of political parties. We said so. The hon members who defied us and supported the measure are today criticising it. What hypocrisy!

Having said that, I also want to come to the more positive contribution of the hon member for Reservoir Hills. I agree with him that we have to remedy that which was wrong. On the question of Mr S C Naidoo, and with regard to Mr Tokkie Saayman, I am sure the hon member will remember Mr Tokkie Saayman well. We must not allow people to be victimised because some people can level certain uncalled for allegations at these people. Because of these allegations—if they are repeated often enough—such people are victimised. I would suggest that the wrong which had been done previously must now be corrected. Mr Saayman is not in the service of the administration. That is fine. However, if the opportunity is presented and if he applied, I believe he should be given favourable consideration for reappointment.

I also want to state my belief that we on this side of the House, whilst we are in the position of being the majority in this House, will not in any way engage in victimisation. We will not victimise teachers, we will not victimise principals, we will not engage in character assassination. These are the things that are reminiscent of the previous Ministers’ Council, and I can assure hon members that this is not our train of thought. In as much as people would like to castigate us and try to mix us up with the type of rubbish that permeated the House, I want to give hon members the assurance that whilst I am in this party, we in this party will stand for righteousness. We will uphold the dignity of our office. Whatever we do, we have the courage of our convictions to face the consequences.

Mr Chairman, I would like to thank all hon members who have participated in the debate on my budget Votes, namely Votes 1 and 5. Some of the matters that were raised require detailed answers. I shall answer in writing the various queries raised by hon members. However, in relation to my Vote, I would like to give general answers on matters of principle. There were some questions posed by hon members which overlapped.

I briefly want to refer to the hon member for Bayview. He said that as far as employment was concerned, we should look more carefully at people who are employed in the administration, and that we should see to it that we employ people with the necessary qualifications in the specialised fields. I want to say that it is not our intention to employ unqualified staff. Regrettably our experience has been that when we advertise vacancies in these special fields of employment, there are very few takers. We do not get the kind of applications that we are looking for. It is therefore very difficult to fill these positions if there are no applications from qualified people.

I now wish to come to the contentious issue of ministerial representatives. I want to say that I share the concern of hon members who have voiced their feelings on this issue. A ministerial representative is not necessarily accountable to Parliament. He is accountable to the hon Minister who delegates his powers and who assigns him to a certain task. He is therefore not accountable to Parliament, but to the hon Minister concerned.

I agree with hon members who have expressed their concern. Certain difficulties were experienced in that there have been political appointments when ministerial representatives were appointed on the recommendation of the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. It has been a matter of great concern in this House. We are, however, looking at this. We are evaluating their responsibilities and very soon we will be able to ask hon Ministers to give specific instructions or specific delegations to ministerial representatives.

I also wish to refer to parliamentary staff who accompany hon Ministers to Cape Town. This is a matter which the House of Delegates is not responsible for. It is Parliament that makes rules and regulations in relation to parliamentary staff. However, the point has been taken by myself and my colleagues in the Ministers’ Council. We will look at the issue. Wherever there is a need for special leave to be granted to parliamentary staff for special reasons, it will be granted. I believe that the point has been made. We will refer the requests of hon members, including those of the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture, to the Commission for Administration so that they can look at some of the difficulties experienced by parliamentary staff.

The staff of the Department of Home Affairs are being treated as opportunity cases. The House of Delegates acts as an agent for the Department of Home Affairs. Wherever there have been opportunities for advancement for that personnel there have been, as I said earlier, equal opportunities for them.

As I said in my earlier speech this R8 a day is a matter for the Department of Manpower because they laid down that payment. However, it would be very difficult for us to subsidise over and above R8 because many of our own services like health services, welfare and pensions also need to be uplifted. We could perhaps make a representation to the hon the Minister of Manpower that R8 a day is insufficient. However, rather R8 a day than nothing at all.

I want to inform the hon member for Reservoir Hills that we do get applications from members of all population groups. Wherever the opportunity arises we employ people of all population groups, including Blacks. The hon member made a good point in relation to tender procedures with which I agree. We have evaluated the past performance of the Advisory Allocations Committee. The necessary remedial steps have been taken and I can assure the hon member for Reservoir Hills that the actions of the past will not be repeated.

The hon member for Havenside made a point about the 928 employees who are on a low-income salary scale. Their earnings are considered every six months. The Ministers’ Council and the administration apply their minds judiciously whenever there is a possibility of increasing their earnings. The hon member for Havenside particularly raised the point of spiralling inflation. We have to be very careful as to how much we spend in the way of salaries and so forth.

I personally would have liked to consider the contribution of the hon member for Actonville as a direct attack on myself but in my opinion he attacked the hon member for Laudium via myself and my Vote. He brought Shakespeare down to the streets of Actonville, as he normally does. There was no presentation, diction or pronunciation. I did not understand what he was trying to say and therefore I regret that I cannot reply to him.

Shakespeare was a man of the people.

The hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning has just pointed out to me that Shakespeare was a man of the people, but unfortunately the hon member for Actonville did not appreciate the fact that a man of the people lived among the people so that he could understand Shakespeare. I personally did not understand what the hon member for Actonville was trying to say. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Isipingo raised a very pertinent issue that is very much in the eye of the public, namely the booksellers who supply books to the Indian schools. I have made the point that the past actions of the Advisory Allocations Committee will not be repeated. At this stage the whole issue is being looked at and we are consulting and working in close co-operation with the State Tender Board.

Will it be a public tender?

Possibly it will be a public tender but we have to take certain circumstances, relating to present booksellers who own large stocks, into consideration. However, be that as it may, we shall not deviate from the principles of the State Tender Board.

The hon member for Laudium raised issues which should be discussed in a general affairs debate. We are totally opposed to resorts and public facilities being own affairs. We would then constrain people from coming into our own resorts. We do not want an issue that would tarnish the image of the House of Delegates. I want to assure the hon member for Laudium that my colleague, the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture, will agree with me on this matter in his Vote. I want to repeat that many issues were raised by the hon members present. I will give them my reply in writing.

The hon member for Reservoir Hills has had two bites at the cherry. I want to say that since 1988 we could find no palm-greasing in the processing of evaluations. If the hon member for Reservoir Hills has any knowledge of a particular case he must please bring it to the attention of my administration. I see no reason to waste time on the bad administration of the past. One should rather raise the present administration to a higher level.

I want to end off by thanking hon members again for their contributions. I want to assure them that our motto is: Let the past be the past.

What about undoing the wrongs of the past?

I said in my main budget speech and I repeated it during the discussion on the Votes that there were matters which needed thorough investigation. At the present moment we have some forty to fifty cases which we are investigating. After our investigations have been completed I will report to this House on their findings. Where litigation is necessary it will certainly be entered into. However, as I said in my main budget speech, the legal probability of succeeding is far more important than just taking a chance and preferring charges. Having said that, I want to thank all hon members again for their contributions.

Debate concluded.

Mr Chairman, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

The key words here are “the proposed changes to the Development and Services Board in its present form”. I would like to elaborate on that.

At the end of last year the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing in the House of Assembly drafted a Bill which was presented to the ad hoc committee and the provincial administrations. By means of this Bill it is planned to replace, particularly in Natal, the Development and Services Board only for Whites, which will be for the entire public of South Africa. It is planned to dissolve the present Development and Services Board in the process and instead to introduce the new local authorities—I think they will be called local development boards. Therein lies my concern.

The Development and Services Board in Natal has served all the race groups in Natal over the past forty years with diligence and sincerity. If the Bill of the House of Assembly is proceeded with, it will leave the people of colour in Natal without any institution to perform the functions that are presently performed by the Development and Services Board.

Therefore, I would like to trace the history of the Development and Services Board right back to the time of its conception in 1941. The evolution of isolated pockets of rural areas into urban areas is a natural phenomenon. Invariably, due to financial constraints, these developments were unable to provide the basic infrastructures and needed a degree of regulation and control. To this end the Natal Provincial Administration saw fit to establish an institution to render those essential services that were much needed in those areas of neglect.

Hence, with the prime objective of uplifting these areas to a level of self-sufficiency, where either self-government at the local level or incorporation into an adjacent independent local authority was viable and feasible, it promulgated Ordinance No 20 of 1941. In pursuance of Ordinance No 20 of 1941 the Natal Provincial Council constituted the Development and Services Board which was originally styled the Local Health Commission. The board consists of five members appointed by the Administrator in Executive Committee for a period of three years and the present board has a member from the race group to which hon members in this House belong—an Indian is a member of that board at the moment.

The Development and Services Board controls 59 development areas. At this point I should define a development area. A development area is a recognised urban area where normal township development is controlled and the Development and Services Board is responsible for the provision and maintenance of a wide range of local authority services, based mainly upon health considerations. The Development and Services Board receives an annual grant from the provincial revenue account to assist towards this end.

Many of the areas for which the Development and Services Board is responsible, were placed under its jurisdiction because of a lack of fundamental health services and infrastructural development in those areas. The Development and Services Board provides basic coverage in the field of essential services with the objective of attaining elevation to independent local authority status.

Coupled with the development areas, the Development and Services Board controls 34 regulated areas which fall within the provision of the Subdivision of Agricultural Land Act. These are areas with restricted building development. A smallholder owning three, five or ten acres is restricted to putting up a single dwelling with the necessary outbuildings, such as a barn, a stockroom, a warehouse, etc. This is the controlled development of buildings in the areas which fall under the Subdivision of Agricultural Land Act.

The Development and Services Board’s primary function in these regulated areas is to control undesirable irregular developments such as shacks. As a matter of fact, the spectrum of areas for which the Development and Services Board is responsible ranges from industrial townships to rural settlements, and each area has its own particular problems. The board persistently pursues the policy of uplifting areas to levels at which either incorporation into contiguous independent local authorities or independent self-government may become effective.

This brings me to the point that the development areas of Glen Anil, Duffs Road, Umhlali and Shallcross—all in Natal—are rapidly advancing towards that level of elevation. These attainments are without any undue burden to the ratepayers of these areas.

I wish to highlight a few of the main statistical features of the board’s overall activities. The board currently attends to 59 development areas and 33 regulated areas, covering a sum total of 77 324 ha with an estimated population of 93 000. This excludes the seasonal influx of holidaymakers to a number of coastal holiday resorts under the control of the board.

The board maintains 386 km of roads in all these areas; 846 nightsoil pails are removed in four areas; it provides 15 cemeteries and 17 libraries with a membership of 13 762 and a turnover of 256 260 books per annum. It also has 25 water schemes supplying approximately 2 000 megalitres of water. It supplies 2 300 street lights. There are 15 500 housing units for the various races under the areas controlled by the board. The breakdown is as follows: There are 8 200 units for the Indian population of 48 262; 4 245 units for the White population of 15 169; 2 507 units for the Black population of 26 573; and 618 units for the Coloured population of 2 996. In addition to its functions within its area of jurisdiction, the board also provides health assistance to a number of independent local authorities, amongst which are the town boards of Richmond, Melmoth and Umkomaas.

The board’s operational functions are structured on a branch system which is headed by the secretary who is the chief executive officer. This system is a departure from the standard practice of local authorities of working with committees, management committees and various other committees as found in the independent and self-controlled local authorities.

There are five branches, namely management services, which is headed by the deputy secretary; engineering services, headed by the chief engineer; environmental planning, headed by the chief town planner; health services, headed by the medical officer of health and finance, headed by the chief financial officer. Furthermore, to enhance competent and efficient administrative control the Development and Services Board has established three regional district areas under the management of district managers. They are the districts of Natal North Coast, Natal South Coast and Natal Inland. Each district area has subdistrict areas managed by assistant district managers.

What is commendable is that for the entire 92 areas under the control of the Development and Services Board there are only 780 staff members and I would like to emphasise this point. Of the 780 staff members 342 hold classified posts and 438 hold non-classified posts. Those who hold classified posts are distributed amongst the branches and district area offices and that is no mean feat.

From the chief executive officer down to the grass cutter the Development and Services Board has a staff of only 780. If some hon members in the backbenches want to get up and criticise the actual performance of the Development and Services Board, they must consider this. For a local authority which controls 92 areas covering almost two-thirds of the province of Natal, which includes KwaZulu, to have a staff of only 780 including the executive officers is something to crow about.

It is furthermore interesting that the 342 classified posts are comprised of 209 Whites, 115 Indians, 15 Blacks and three Coloureds. The composition of the classified posts, which includes skilled and semi-skilled work, is non-racial. Regardless of the ratio and of the proportions it is in concept a non-racial organisation. The non-classified posts are held by people of colour who do menial tasks. They are the 438 non-classified posts.

Compared to this the Pietermaritzburg Municipality employs more than 3 500 people. That gives a fair indication of the competence and efficiency of the Development and Services Board which by and large works in the interests of the ratepayer.

There are 42 local affairs committees within the Development and Services Board’s development areas. Those areas are non-rate paying areas and therefore they do not have representation on the board. Nonetheless, the Development and Services Board does give a sympathetic hearing to any representation made to it on behalf of those areas.

Of these 42 local affairs committees, there are 29 White, 11 Indian and two Coloured local affairs committees. My observation is that the Development and Services Board works in close collaboration with the local affairs committees on community matters and the services and developments of any area are as good or bad as its local affairs committee. Of this I would like hon members of the opposition to take particular note.

From the aforegoing facts and figures it is evident that the Development and Services Board’s systematic performance surpasses the sum total of all local authorities in Natal, which brings me to the substance of the motion before this House. If the Government goes ahead with its proposed intention of disbanding the Development and Services Board in Natal, as it has done with all the development boards in the other provinces, it will be a disaster. It is untenable. If the Development and Services Board is disbanded the fruitful expertise and knowledge that has been accumulated over 48 years and which is of tremendous value to people of all races in the province of Natal, will be flushed away, regardless of whatever substitute the Government desires to introduce there. Therefore I request that the status quo be retained as far as the Development and Services Board is concerned and that similar boards be established in the other three provinces so that the people of these areas can benefit from the expertise and knowledge which the Development and Services Board has gained over the last 48 years.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Camperdown has given us a brief thesis on the origins of the Development and Services Board, the Health Commission and the proposed legislation which he spoke about. I do not want to belabour this issue, by virtue of the fact that my colleague, the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, is fully aware that there has been communication between both departments for a long period with regard to the future of the Development and Services Board.

The Cape Province used to have the Divisional Council, the Transvaal had the Peri-urban Board and Natal had the Development and Services Board. I must stress very strongly here that my colleague is aware of our communication, in particular with regard to the circumstances of Natal, where the Development and Services Board had an important role to play. We have some areas like Ethethe, in the Groutville area, where Blacks are living together with the Indian community and the Coloured community. The Tugela region, where I stay, is a Development and Services Board area. The Development and Services Board area is involved extensively, at different levels, in developing areas which were actually controlled areas over the years. If one looks briefly at figures, one will see that 95 044 people live in Development and Services Board areas, of which 15 755 are White, 3 672 Coloured, 48 768 Indian and 26 849 Black.

Of course, our board comprises nine members. Five are appointed by the Administrator, namely two White, one Coloured and one Indian. However, the fact is that we are making strong representations to the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning with the possibility of retaining the Development and Services Board. The hon member for Camperdown has emphasised the importance of this in detail. I pay tribute to him for the excellent homework he has done in this particular field. I want to join him in the request to my colleague, the hon the Minister, that we consider, by virtue of those circumstances which we are faced with in Natal with regard to development at that level, retaining the Development and Services Board until such times as we are able to find an alternative solution to cater for the needs of the particular region.

Mr Chairman, I want to start by appealing to the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning that whilst we in Natal do desire proper regional services and whilst the whole question of the regional services is in the melting pot as far as Natal is concerned, we cannot allow the Development and Services Board not to be effective and not to be retained. I believe, as I said in earlier debates, that the concept of the RSCs was not bad, but we disagreed with the provisions of the RSCs and its bias was being structured on an ethnic basis. It leant in that direction.

The other factor which was raised at the time was that the RSCs were not negotiated with all the people of Natal. Now, with the new climate that is developing in Natal, where the hon the Minister has held discussions with the Chief Minister of the KwaZulu Legislative Assembly and whilst constitutional changes are imminent as a result of these discussions, I believe that it would augur well for the future if we did not impose any kind of structure on to Natal which would not be acceptable to the majority of the people of Natal. Whilst constitutional change and the debate on constitutional change directly affected Natal and local government structures as well as regional structures, it might be an ongoing process which might take a few years. In the meantime the Development and Services Board has to play its role, and play it more effectively.

In this regard I would like to say that the concept of the Development and Services Board itself was intended in the first instance to subsidise the impoverished area. In the recent past the subsidisation and the role of the Development and Services Board in this impoverished area has been diminishing to the point that the argument is that the Development and Services Board now has local affairs committees which are structured with a view to trying to force viability on them. This is ridiculous because they are non-viable. That is why they fall under the DSB in the first instance. Then it is perceived as a pressure mechanism to force the local affairs committees in the DSB areas to move towards being impoverished ethnic local authorities. One needs to remove that.

I believe that one of the problems—and this is my criticism—with the DSB was the way it was structured, the way people were appointed. In the first instance appointments were made purely along racial lines, when there were only White members. Later people of colour were also appointed to serve in the DSB. However, there were political appointees whose interest was to look at issues from a party-political point of view. I believe it needs to be depoliticised. The way to depoliticise it—I would suggest to the hon the Minister—until the whole question of regional services in Natal is resolved, is that the DSB should merge and then be elected by an electoral college. The electoral college should consist of all the members who serve on advisory committees in all DSB areas.

The composition of the DSB will be established, whether it be nine members or not, and the electoral college of all the advisory committee members should then have the opportunity of electing persons to serve on the DSB. In that way the interests of the DSB will be articulated more effectively. In that way people who are directly responsible will be elected. They will be accountable to the members who serve on the DSB.

I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to consider the fact that the proposed piece of legislation will make local government an own affair in the House of Assembly. This would mean that the DSB areas in Natal, which fall under the control of White LACs in respect of White group areas, will become part of this local government under own affairs under the hon the Minister of Local Government and Housing. I want to suggest that this will again militate against the goodwill and positive spirit that are being generated in South Africa, and against the belief that reform is now getting off the ground and that progress is being made. We do not want to create the impression that we are going to forcibly entrench own affairs concepts on people who do not want them. In order to pre-empt any kind of interrelationship at primary level in Natal, it is perceived that this own affairs Bill is being introduced to stop any kind of multiracial structures in Natal. Whilst we have this ongoing debate on progress that is being made, I think that the hon the Minister should consider strengthening the DSB in the interim period.

Mr Chairman, while I agree with the hon member for Camperdown that the Development and Services Board is carrying out essential services where no other institution exists, I also want to add that the Development and Services Board has a habit of carrying out unequal services for the various race groups. One just has to look at the development of Park Rynie—which is a White area—and the development of Craigieburn—which is an Indian area.

Park Rynie has tarred roads, pavements with curbing and channeling for stormwater drainage. It looks neat and tidy. The Indian area, Craigieburn, is a sprawling township. It takes longer for residents to get from Craigieburn to the centre of Durban than for the residents of Chatsworth, because they only have one access road to get to Durban. This township is bursting at the seams, but it has shoddy roads, no pavements, no curbing, no channeling and no proper drainage. It has overgrown verges and this makes it very unsightly.

The Development and Services Board controls two small areas around Umzinto. We have repeatedly asked for these two areas to be incorporated into Umzinto, but the board objects to this. The land around the Umzinto township is right across from the town board’s offices, but the Development and Services Board objects to this. Only recently the board wanted to excise certain land in Umzinto from their area of jurisdiction to the Umzinto township. The way they went about doing this was by putting an advertisement in the paper. They prepared the documents and posted them to the town clerk in Umzinto. They asked him to get the chairman to sign these documents. What nonsense! Would they have done this to any White institution?

This particular land is known to everybody as Monkeyland. It will take a fortune to develop this area and the Umzinto township has rejected this offer. I believe that the Development and Services Board should take care of providing equal services to all areas under its control, and should refrain from meddling in group areas and land affairs. This should be left to the local authorities of the provinces.

Mr Chairman, in Natal the Development and Services Board has played a very important role in the development of non-developed areas. The board has offered services to rural and regulated areas where a municipality or local authority had been unable to offer these services.

The Development and Service Board had a proud record. They did excellent work and when the Abolition of Development Bodies Amendment Bill was presented to this House the exception was granted as a result of our appeal to the hon the Minister that the Natal Development and Services Board should not be disbanded. The community in Natal is very appreciative of the services that are being rendered by the board. They keep the rates of a locality low despite what they have to give to that community in the way of services.

The Natal board has fewer men in their employment professionally than a municipality or a local authority and yet they render the services which are direly needed in those areas. I appeal to the hon the Minister this afternoon to leave the board intact until such times as they themselves come back to the hon the Minister and say that they have discharged their responsibilities.

If the House of Assembly were to accept the Abolition of Development Bodies Amendment Bill which makes provision for the Development and Services Boards to become own affairs I would consider that as a negative step because it would only become an own affair for the House of Assembly and not necessarily serve all administrations. Therefore I make this appeal. However, we would be very pleased if the hon the Minister would be able to clarify the matter and give us more information.

I do not want to belabour the issue but I once again say that the Natal Development and Services Board is a body that functions properly. In certain areas where there are advisory committees to the board, for instance in Redcliffe, Roodekrans and Hazelmere, elected members of the Indian community will soon be serving on these advisory committees. I think that is also a progressive step. I support the viewpoint that the Natal Development and Services Board is indispensable to services for all population groups in Natal and they must be permitted to serve Natal.

Mr Chairman, I would first of all like to thank the hon member for Camperdown for giving us insight into the composition of and the services rendered by the Development and Services Board. I am sure many hon members present this afternoon knew very little about the organisation.

It would appear from the motion of the hon member for Camperdown that he is more concerned about the dissolving of the board than the proposed changes. I believe that changes are welcome, provided that they are positive and progressive. He did not spell out the actual changes in his motion and it was only this afternoon that we learnt that the real concern was a draft Bill to dissolve this board.

The cardinal point of democracy is: No taxation without representation. This board that was formed in 1941 with five members serving on it, today has to oversee the needs of some 93 000 people and it cannot function with those five members. As some hon member mentioned earlier on it was originally formed on a racial basis, but it is now a mixed board. However, I do not think that five members suffice to serve those 93 000 people with about 700 members on its staff.

I feel that a cross-section comprising a larger number of members on the board would be the right answer as a proposed change and therefore I want to move an amendment to the original motion this afternoon. I move:

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Camperdown, the mover of the draft resolution under discussion, has made out a case for the retention of the Development and Services Board. I have no problem with this draft resolution. However, there are certain anomalies which I would like to point out. In appraising the situation for the retention of the Development and Services Board we must look at the problems and the anomalies in a realistic way.

I want to cite the case of Shallcross. I sometimes wonder whether there is any need for the operation of the Development and Services Board in Shallcross which is a highly developed township. It lies between the area controlled by Pinetown on the one side and the area under the jurisdiction of Durban on the other. I can understand that an area like Welbedacht, which is remote and sparsely populated, certainly requires some organised body to control it. But why Shallcross?

I am aware that the residents of Shallcross do not want Shallcross to be annexed by Durban or Pinetown. They do not want to continue functioning as a local affairs committee. What they want is to participate on the town or city council as fully-fledged members of those bodies. I think one has to consider this for the future. This is the reason why Shallcross stands out as a separate entity.

They also do not want autonomy. One can understand this, because autonomy for Shallcross would be suicidal. It is too small an area and by and large a dormitory township. There is no way in which this township can become fully viable because of a lack of income-producing avenues such as commerce and industry. There is land available for commerce and industry but the key road that links Shallcross and Chatsworth has not been developed. The main reason why this township has not made further progress is because their rates income is not adequate to meet all the capital expenses. The result is that to this day the roads are not fully developed in this area and they have not been able to provide a sewage service in this highly developed township.

I think that in our endeavours to retain the Development and Services Board we must look at it carefully. You, Mr Chairman, as a previous employee of the Development and Services Board, will be fully aware of the fact that in Shallcross the Development and Services Board has been in existence for over thirty years. I cannot see anyone convincing me today that the Development and Services Board must operate in that area.

Mr Chairman, as I understand it the Development and Services Board in Natal does exactly the same work as the Periurban Areas Board in the Transvaal. In other words, where there are no municipalities or local authorities to control an area and do the necessary work there, such an area falls under the jurisdiction of this Development and Services Board.

In view of the Bill which is being introduced in the House of Assembly, it appears that this must become an own affairs matter. If that happens, I think it will have a very negative effect and that it will not work. In the Transvaal the Peri-urban Areas Board is for the whole of the Transvaal. All the areas which are not covered by the local authorities fall under the jurisdiction of the Periurban Areas Board.

I think the same applies to Natal, all areas which are not serviced by municipalities or local authorities will fall under the Development and Services Board. In view of that and because it will cover the whole area, I think that this must remain a general affair and not become an own affair. Regarding it as an own affair will definitely not work in this case. One cannot have different areas for different groups. It will not work out that way.

The idea is to retain the Development and Services Board. However, because there is no parity, it is no use having nine members on the board when seven of them are White, one is Coloured and one is Indian. That will not be right. I think if one has representation it must be equal representation. If there are nine members there must be three Whites, three Coloureds and three Indians. One must actually also make provision for Blacks on the board. One must have equal representation. In view of that, I support the amendment moved by the hon member for Tongaat that we retain the Development and Services Board and that the representation be on an equal basis for all race groups.

Mr Chairman, let me say immediately that since I was here last, many changes have taken place in this House.

For the better!

I was going to remark that I hope these changes are for the better. The hon the Minister says they are for the better. I wish hon members of this House well with the changes.

Let me start off by saying that there must be some misunderstanding about the Bill that we introduced in the House of Assembly. That Bill is to create a statutory council to enable the Minister of Local Government and Housing in the Administration: House of Assembly to perform his development function. That Bill, in fact, has nothing to do with the abolition of the Development and Services Board in Natal.

The second observation I would like to make is that the discussion this afternoon would have been much more appropriate at the time when the Bill in relation to the abolition of the development institutions or agencies was, in fact, discussed in 1985. Hon members will remember that that Bill was passed and became an Act of Parliament with the assistance of all three Houses of Parliament, including this particular one.

I would like to make a third observation. I have listened to the hon member for Cavendish and other hon members and it is quite obvious to me that, quite apart from the laudable work done by that board, it has not been in a position to meet the demands and needs of the communities in that particular area. I would not ascribe that to the inability of the board, but possibly to the inadequacy of the funds which they control.

I have just made some inquiries and I have been informed that for 90% of its funds that board was and still is dependent on the province. I need not inform hon members as to the province’s own need for funds in this particular regard. Therefore, if we talk about the effectiveness of the institution, we would have to relate that to the adequacy of funds available, whether through that agency or any other agency.

The fourth observation I would like to make is that it is impossible, whether we like it or not, to discuss this issue without having reference to three important Acts of Parliament. The first one is the Constitution Act of 1983. All of us came to Parliament in terms of that Act. Moreover, in terms of that Act, Ministers of Local Government hold office also in this House. Therefore, I think it is only fair just to put on record again that in terms of the Constitution, local government is, in fact, an own affair.

The second point I would like to make in this regard is that another appropriate Act that is relevant to our discussions today is the Regional Services Councils Act. Here again, this Act became an Act of Parliament with the support of all three Houses of Parliament, including this particular House.

Finally, an Act which is relevant for the purposes of our discussion is the Abolition of Development Bodies Act of 1986. I just briefly want to go back in history. Hon members will recall that the body that we consider to be authoritative in terms of advice to us on local government is in fact the Council for the Co-ordination of Local Government Affairs. In 1985, if my memory serves me correctly, when the proposed establishment of regional services councils became a reality, the Government requested the Council for the Co-ordination of Local Government Affairs to investigate—hon members must please listen to this—the concept of rationalisation of these existing local government institutions and the development agencies that existed at that time.

I am not going to provide an exhaustive list, but hon members know how many there were all over the country. Hon members have referred to the peri-urban councils in the Transvaal, the divisional councils in the Cape, the Development and Services Board of Natal and the old development boards that served the Black community. Those issues were canvassed in terms of a request by the Government for the council to carry out an investigation. The council subsequently appointed four subcommittees under the chairmanship of the Administrators of the provinces to investigate—I should just like to record this again—the future of the development boards, including the one we are discussing this afternoon. They were the Transvaal Board for the Development of Peri-urban Areas, the divisional councils of the Cape Province and the Development and Services Board in Natal.

The rationalisation of the Development and Services Board as well as the Natal Regional Water Services Corporation was investigated by the committee chaired by the Administrator of the Cape, Administrator Louw. In terms of the investigation Mr Louw’s committee considered the role of these bodies in the new constitutional dispensation with regard to the possible transfer of functions to regional services councils.

For the purpose of clarity, let me say this again: Those councils are in fact general affairs councils. They are in fact constituted, as the amendment would suggest, in such a way that all the population groups are represented on such a development board or agency. In that sense, therefore, this meets the requirement that all the communities that are in fact involved should be on such a board. The members of the subcommittee included, amongst others, Mr Cassim—the Vice-Chairman of the Natal Association of Local Affairs Committees—as well as representatives of the Development and Services Board of Natal itself.

The report of the Administrator of the Cape was submitted to the action committee of the council on 30 December 1985. It was recommended at that stage that the services of these bodies had to be rationalised and the existing institutions abolished upon the establishment of regional services councils. The action committee accepted the recommendations with a few amendments at that time. The action committee was of the opinion that when the proposed regional services council for the Durban-Pinetown area was established, it would take over the Regional Water Services Corporation situated within the boundaries, should such services be identified as a regional function by the Administrator.

The action committee recommended that the future position of the personnel of the Development and Services Board and also of the Regional Water Services Corporations should be thoroughly investigated. At a meeting of the action committee held on 18 February 1986, it was decided that a subcommittee under the guidance of Administrator Louw should urgently conduct investigations recommended in the report.

The supplementary report was considered by the Council for the Co-ordination of Local Government Affairs at its meeting on 10 March 1986. The council approved the recommendations in the supplementary report with the proviso that in the interim the Development and Services Board of Natal should continue as a statutory body under the jurisdiction of the Administrator of Natal. It would deal with matters on a contractual basis—and I want to underline that word—for the three own affairs administrations and also where necessary with general affairs related to the Black communities.

As a result of the recommendations of the council the abolition of the Development Bodies Act was considered by the joint committee and approved by Parliament, including this House. The Act, amongst other things, provides for the abolition of the Development and Services Board and the Regional Water Services Corporation in Natal. We all supported that piece of legislation.

It was not a question of the principles involved. It was a question as to the time when the abolition should be considered. One relevant factor in determining the time was the establishment of regional services councils in Natal. In terms of the Act, the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning—poor me again—will abolish the Development and Services Board by notice in the Gazette with effect from a date mentioned in the notice.

In other words, in contrast to divisional councils which are to be phased out on a specific date, that same provision did not apply to the Natal Development and Services Board. The Act also stipulates that prior to the abolition of the Board, the Minister must consult with the Administrator, the Development and Services Board itself and any other body or person that he considers necessary.

In the meantime the investigation into the classification of the functions of the the Development and Services Board and the Regional Water Services Corporation into general and own affairs, and transferring them to the relevant authorities, continued. The investigation has since been concluded, and this is the part I would like hon members to take note of. The Ministers’ Council of the House of Assembly takes responsibility for White own affairs and their functions with effect from 1 April 1989. Here again the creation of a statutory body to perform these functions for the community served by the House of Assembly and their administration, does not abolish the Development and Services Board in Natal. I have tried to indicate what the process is that I personally would have to set in motion before the abolition of the Board itself can become effective.

The Administrator of Natal made representations for the continuation of the Development and Services Board and asked that it should not be abolished—as did the hon member for Camperdown who introduced the motion this afternoon. The matter was then submitted to the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Works of the Ministers’ Council of the House of Assembly. He indicated that the Ministers’ Council of the House of Assembly would have no objection to the continued existence of the Development and Services Board with the proviso that it did not influence the establishment of own affairs in Natal and that certain stipulated procedures were followed.

It is quite obvious that I cannot supersede the law. The law empowers local government affairs in these functions to be transferred to the various administrations. In the case of the House of Assembly the administration wanted the functions to be transferred. Once they have been transferred, they need a statutory body to perform the duties and functions which the Natal Development and Services Board has up to now undertaken for certain White communities as well.

The procedure would be to transfer the functions and powers presently vested in the Administrator in respect of the Development and Services Board in terms of Ordinance 30 of 1931 and Ordinance 14 of 1974, to the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Works in the Ministers’ Council of the House of Assembly, who in turn then transfers these functions to the proposed statutory council of that administration. I understand that the Bill is being considered at the moment.

They will in turn then be in a position to transfer the execution of certain functions on an agency basis to the Development and Services Board. It must be remembered that the first three regional services councils in Natal are being considered at the moment.

This will obviously affect the continued existence of the Development and Services Board in Natal. Further discussions with all concerned on the future of the board will have to be held before a final decision can be taken. Matters raised today in this debate, I believe, are relevant matters to be considered when that decision is taken.

I want to conclude by saying one thing. Hon members will know the old saying: Talk is cheap; it is money that buys the whisky. [Interjections.] I was waiting for the hon member for Reservoir Hills to react. It is amazing how my memory never fails me in this regard.

Seriously, the fact of the matter is that there is much need out there in all the communities and all our politicking is not going to satisfy those needs. The fact of the matter is that the present resources of the province and of the Development and Services Board are completely inadequate even to make an impact in dealing with the needs of the communities. Hon members must just fly over the greater Durban-Pietermaritzburg area and see the appalling conditions under which many South Africans live. I submit that this is major cause of unrest in those areas. Unless we are able to address these reasonable needs of people fairly, no amount of discussion about this issue or any other will help us in stabilising that area.

It is a fact—and hon members know this—that regional services councils, whether we agree with the composition or not, have in terms of that Act the power to collect funds, an additional source of income, to be made available for the development of those communities which have the greatest need. If hon members would look at the Act itself and the priorities determined in terms of that Act, I am tempted to say we would be perpetrating a crime in not trying to assist those communities.

I happened to visit a town next to Boksburg—Vosloosrus—on Friday. I would like to suggest that when hon members have the time, they go and visit this town, as well as Alexandra and the towns on the East Rand. They should also visit Port Elizabeth and see what has happened in terms of development for the communities, specifically the Black community in that area. They would have to agree with me. It is a fact. The regional services councils, over the past year or two, have spent over R300 million in upgrading communities. We must understand that this is only in the Transvaal and two areas in the Cape where these councils have been established. I would therefore say today that it is of the utmost importance that we use every vehicle and every instrument that will assist us in improving the quality of life and the living conditions of people. I say that it is incumbent upon us—our people out there expect it of us—that we should stop talking politics and address the real needs of the people.

I say that where the Development and Services Board is still required in Natal, because there is no substitute or other instrument, we must retain it. However, we must not plead for the retention of that board so as to avoid the establishment of other instruments and institutions that could more effectively deal with the problems that are prevalent in those areas. I think I would have the support of all members of this House in this approach. Therefore I suggest that both the motion and the amendment should fall away.

Mr Chairman, first of all I would like to thank the hon the Minister for his investigation, although it is not satisfactory. Our needs and arguments to a great extent certainly follow the Act which was passed in this House to dissolve all bodies. I want to tell the hon the Minister that in this House Bills are passed as amended time and again. There is an opportunity to amend that Act which dissolves boards. It is not such a difficult motion.

I would like to thank the hon member for Stanger for supporting me and most of all I am grateful to the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture for his unreserved support. What surprised me was that a certain hon member of his party, the previous speaker, with his inadequate and superficial knowledge of local affairs and the DSB, has the audacity to move an amendment against an hon Minister on his side of the House. His hon Minister unreservedly gave me his support on this motion. The leader of the party should question that hon member. He should throw him out. I will never move a motion against a Minister of my party against his wishes. I tell the hon member for Tongaat that the draft resolution does not call for equality in the composition of the board. The fight is to retain that board so that the good services rendered by that board to the people of all races in Natal, will not be lost. That is what the motion entails, not which race group will gain more. His party’s nominee, Mr Koobain, serves on the board.

It has changed.

I know, he served last year. A nominee of the NPP is a member of that board. When they want to increase the number of members of the board, he will not have the people to do so. He is already experiencing difficulties. That five-member board is a policy-deciding board and their executive power lies in the secretary and the branches. Increasing that number is unnecessary to provide the services that are needed.

I now come to the hon member for Umzinto. He has also revealed his inadequate knowledge of the Development and Services Board. He equates Park Rynie with Craigieburn. Park Rynie, when I was a schoolboy, was a fully developed area. Craigieburn was a little township started by some entrepreneurs in the open veld.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: That hon member is ignorant of what he is talking about.

That is an insult! It is not a point of order.

Craigieburn is an Indian area and Park Rynie is a White area.

Order! That is not a point of order.

I repeat, the hon member for Umzinto has revealed his inadequate knowledge of that particular area, Park Rynie. [Time expired.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That all the words after “That” stand part of the Question.

Question agreed to and amendment dropped.

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

That precedence be given to the debate on Vote No 4—Health Services and Welfare, Appropriation Bill (House of Delegates) [B66—89 (HD)].

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, colleagues in the Ministers’ Council and hon members, it gives me great pleasure to present my budget speech for the 1989-90 financial year to this House. Normally in cricket parlance a hat-trick—that is, three wickets in a row—is acknowledged with much acclaim. It is hoped that this, my third budget speech, will receive similar accolades and satisfy all hon members of this House, irrespective of party allegiance. Despite the various restrictions imposed on it by way of shortage of finance and personnel, which matters are beyond my control, the Department of Health Services and Welfare has indeed managed to move forward in the provision of health and welfare services to the community.

In my budget speech last year, I elaborated at some length on the forward planning of the department. I would like to indicate to hon members to what extent these plans have been fulfilled in the past year, and what we propose to achieve in the 1989-90 financial year.

Since the inception of the tricameral system it has been normal policy also to include in my budget speech financial details of the various services rendered by the department. In the short time allowed for debate, it is obviously difficult to elaborate in such fine detail. I am therefore going to restrict myself to policy and some specific matters only.

It will, however, have been noticed that despite the financial constraints, for the 1989-90 financial year my department has been allocated a record increase of 24,09% over the previous financial year. To a large extent this is due to the following increases in social pensions:

Old age pensions increased from R167 to R200, (19,9%); blind pensions increased from R167 to R200, (19,9%); disability pensions increased from R162 to R195, (20,4%); maintenance grants increased from R162 to R195, (20,4%); children’s allowances increased from R42 to R52, (23,8%) and foster care grants increased from R123,50 to R146,50, (18,6%).

Whilst it is accepted that the gap as regards parity with the White population group has not narrowed, it must be mentioned that due to the continuous pressure of my department, the percentage increase of pensions for the Indian community has increased considerably since the inception of the tricameral system. For the benefit of hon members, I would like to quote the comparative percentage increases in pensions to members of our community as opposed to those of the White population group.

1 August 1985:

13,6% increase (Indian)8,4% increase (Whites)

1 August 1986:

15,4% increase (Indian) 10% increase (Whites)

1 August 1987:

23,7% increase (Indian) 10% increase (Whites)

1 August 1989:

19,7% increase (Indian) 15,1% increase (Whites) Taking the whole period since the inception of the tricameral system into account, the percentages increase in social pensions amounted to 94,2%, whereas the percentage increase for Whites was only 51,2%.

Under the system in operation prior to the tricameral system, population groups received a fixed percentage increase in social pensions which meant that the gap actually widened. When social pensions were, for example, increased in 1984 the gap actually widened from R59 per month to R63 per month. The current gap in most pensions payable is R51 per month whilst that in respect of disability pensions and maintenance grants stands at R56 per month. There is therefore no doubt that due to the constant pressure of my department our community has benefited in that a better deal has been obtained for them.

The question of social pensions has long been a very sore point, not only to my department but also going back to the earlier years of the SA Indian Council. Whilst every effort has been made to achieve parity the economic constraints of the Republic’s present financial system make this very difficult to attain. However, I would like to mention that at the request of my colleague, the hon the Minister of Finance, the Department of National Health and Population Development has established a working committee to investigate ways and means of controlling State expenditure on social pensions.

It must be accepted that South Africa is not a social state and that all and sundry cannot rely on the State for financial support. Nevertheless, it is equally acceptable that, should a person really need State assistance, such support should be able to at least provide for such person’s minimum needs.

The committee mentioned above is therefore committed to re-evaluating the current means test to find a more suitable formula to ensure that members of the respective population groups requiring social pensions can at least survive in our current economic situation and in future years. I am sure that all hon members of this House will agree that the existing means test is unacceptable in this day and age and that a more equitable basis should be established. Officials of my department are represented on this committee and they have been instructed in this regard. A further important point which I feel must be made is that it needs to be ensured that persons who do not deserve pensions should not receive them. A recent survey carried out by my department amongst a random 500 persons receiving maintenance grants revealed that 15,4% of them did not qualify. The point I am making is that if these undeserving persons did not receive grants more money would be available to pay higher and more equitable pensions to those who really deserve and need them. On perhaps a higher note I have to advise the House, that over the past year the number of beneficiaries has increased by 2 780.

As indicated in my budget speech for the 1988-89 financial year my department has identified the backlog in service delivery to he community both in the health and welfare fields and has already prepared a ten-year plan to address these needs. The financial restrictions and the moratorium on the creation of posts imposed by the Commission for Administration has however made it very difficult to implement all of these plans.

As stated earlier in this speech I will now indicate to the House the success that has been achieved despite the severe restrictions. I am also compelled to add that the success has been achieved by my dedicated staff despite the fact that additional staff has not been forthcoming in view of the moratorium.

The rehabilitation centre for alcoholics and drug abusers has been completed at a cost of R6 681 734. Most of the equipment has been purchased or is in the process of being purchased and it is hoped to commission the centre early in the new financial year as soon as the posts recommended by the efficiency division of the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services have been created by the Commission for Administration. The centre will provide for the rehabilitation of 100 alcohol or drug abusers and in the first instance these will be restricted to those admitted in terms of section 29 of the Abuse of Dependence-producing Substances and Rehabilitation Centres Act, No 41 of 1971—in other words, those forcibly admitted through the courts. To ensure, however, that the centre provides a continuous service based on 100 inmates, should the above admissions not be sufficient, the centre may also cater for volunteer inmates who, however, must also be admitted through the courts in terms of section 44 of the Act.

There is no doubt that this centre will provide a much needed service for the community. With the holistic approach which will be followed, in other words, a multi-disciplinary professional team involving social workers, psychiatrists, medical officers, psychologists, therapists and nurses, it is guaranteed that the service to be provided will be par excellence and, it is trusted, will provide a high success rate. Provision has been made in the staff establishment to also provide for reconstructive services outside the centre, thereby ensuring that, once rehabilitated, the person involved will be able to re-enter society and, more important, take up employment.

The assessment and therapy centre at Phoenix has also been completed at a cost of R1 887 916. Again, most of the equipment has already been purchased or is in the process of being purchased and the centre is ready to be commissioned. However, the posts recommended by the efficiency division have not yet been approved by the Commission for Administration. It is hoped that these posts will be approved early in the new financial year as funds have already been provided for this.

The department has been able to introduce an occupational therapy service at the centre on a referral basis which is the first step in the direction of rehabilitating and retraining disabled persons in order that they can be suitably employed in the labour market. Not only will this decrease the burden on the state by way of disability pensions, but it will also help the person to enjoy the satisfaction of self-dependency.

Hazelmere House has been purchased at a cost of R350 000 and a limited service has already been introduced. The first five in-patients were taken in on 1 December 1988 and this number has increased to 12. A comprehensive service will be provided when the posts have been approved by the Commission for Administration. The proposed opening of Hazelmere House as a psychiatric institution for mentally ill patients has been welcomed by the Indian community.

At this institution it is also intended to stabilize many psychiatric patients, thus preventing certification and admission to Fort Napier Hospital. Plans are already under way for alterations to the home so that 42 in-patients can be catered for and also to provide for outpatient facilities which will enable a much larger number of mentally ill persons to be attended to.

As stated last year there is a desperate need for community health centres and also for, as we like to call them, multipurpose centres. This means a centre where primary health needs and welfare needs can be provided in the community.

The first of the latter type of centres is to be provided at Stonebridge, Phoenix. The transfer of the building to the Administration: House of Delegates is imminent and once the Department of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture has repaired and renovated the building the service will be implemented.

The plans for the multipurpose health and welfare centre at Actonville, Benoni, have been completed and tenders will be called for on 23 March 1989. It is expected that the erection period will be in the vicinity of one year whereafter the service will be provided.

Negotiations are under way with the Durban Corporation for the purchase of a building in Woodhurst, Chatsworth, which can be satisfactorily converted to provide a multipurpose centre in Chatsworth. This will help considerably in taking the strain off the R K Khan Hospital outpatients department.

A new place of safety is to be erected at Sydenham, Durban on the existing site of the Valley View place of safety. I am sure that the hon members of this House will acknowledge that there is a tremendous need for a new building to cater for our unfortunate children who of necessity have become wards of court. The preliminary plans have been completed and I can assure hon members that this facility when finally completed will be one of the best, if not the best, in South Africa.

Since the establishment of the Phoenix township it was the opinion of the previous SA Indian Council that the community of Phoenix required a permanent building to meet its needs at community level. Since 1983 the community has had to make do with a prefabricated building erected in Clayfield Drive, Phoenix.

The wishes of the SA Indian Council are now to become a reality. Plans for a permanent building have been drawn up and the site in the centre of Phoenix is in the process of being acquired. It is expected that a start will be made with the erection of the building in the 1989-90 financial year.

To cope with the expanded services being provided in the Chatsworth area, especially social worker services and district surgeon services, my department has decided to provide additional accommodation at the existing Chatsworth building by adding two additional storeys to the centre building. The plans have been completed and tenders are expected to be called for in the near future. This will provide much needed accommodation, especially for the social workers who have been working under very restricted conditions. My department is also proceeding with its plans to provide occupational rehabilitation centres or work adjustment centres.

The disabled in the community and those who leave special schools have no facilities for rehabilitation. Therefore the money spent is not considered to be cost effective because the capabilities of these people identified during their scholastic period, are not further exploited. In effect this means that their potential is undeveloped or lost.

Considering the total Indian population of approximately 900 000, it is reasonable to assume that 112 500, representing 12,5% of the population, will be potential users of such facilities. Furthermore a thesis on disability profile and disease circumstance in special schools undertaken by a departmental official revealed that there were 1 507 pupils in the eleven special schools in Natal. Only 10% were placed in the open labour market. There is no doubt that these disabled persons possess potential ability acquired during their school and working adult life which cannot be converted into productive use because of their disability. Therefore the facilities provided will unquestionably identify the capabilities and direct their potential towards a more meaningful life. The first of these centres will be erected at the existing Phoenix Assessment and Therapy Centre, to be followed later by a centre on a site adjacent to the Stanger Training Centre.

I am satisfied that my department, despite the severe restrictions both financial and personnelwise, has made tremendous inroads in eliminating the backlog of services to the community. I can only reiterate that despite the problems ahead my department will continue with its forward momentum.

Regional offices have been opened at Stanger and Umzinto. Whilst the Stanger office is fully operational the same cannot be said for Umzinto. The Commission for Administration has only approved the staff establishment provided posts are abolished elsewhere. This of course is impossible as our department is already understaffed in view of the expansion of services. This office is however functional and we will make internal arrangements to provide for additional staff in the short term pending the result of a resubmission to the Commission for Administration.

The efficiency division of the administration has been requested to investigate the possibility of improving the department’s sub-office in Ladysmith so that services can be provided to Estcourt, Dundee, Glencoe, Dannhauser and Newcastle. As far as Verulam is concerned, my department is fully aware of the unsatisfactory conditions prevailing at this office and everything possible is being done to find new premises. Up to this point in time my department has been unsuccessful. The Department of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture are however doing everything possible to acquire suitable accommodation and I expect that the problem will be solved within the next financial year. The efficiency division has also been requested to look into the possibility of establishing a suboffice at Tongaat.

From the above, it would appear that my department has been concentrating its efforts on Natal as, up to this point in time, apart from the reference to the Actonville Clinic all of the other advancements have been shown to be in Natal. I would like, therefore, for the benefit of the hon members of this House who are not from Natal, to outline the progress my department has made in the province of Transvaal and the province of the Cape of Good Hope.

The efficiency division of the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services has been requested to conduct an urgent investigation into the establishment of a network of offices in the Transvaal, with a regional office in Lenasia. The areas will include the existing sub-offices in Laudium, Benoni and Palmridge and additional suboffices in Roshnee and the Eastern Transvaal. This report is expected to be finalised by 30 June 1989, after which the establishment of the offices will be proceeded with.

As a result of the intervention of an official of my department the Barberton municipality is to provide a community centre for the community in Barberton. The community has been struggling for many years to obtain such a centre.

Negotiations have recommenced with the Transvaal Provincial Administration to take over the Lenasia Clinic. These unfortunately broke down earlier in the absence of a proclamation in terms of the Republic of South Africa Constitution Act, No 110 of 1983, signed by the State President. There is every indication however that these negotiations will be successfully concluded and that the clinic will be taken over by 1 July 1989.

Perhaps at this point in time I should also mention that the way is now open for the take-over of the Lenasia South Hospital as well as the Laudium Hospital and negotiations are again to take place with the Transvaal Provincial Administration. It would certainly appear that these negotiations will now be successfully concluded in view of the fact that the State President has already agreed that certain hospitals should be taken over by the own affairs administrations.

I would again however like to sound a note of warning. Hospitals must always be regarded together with primary health care as part of a comprehensive health care system which includes general practitioners, district surgeon services, local authorities and welfare organisations. It must be clearly understood that where hospitals falls under the control of this administration, they will be liable to public criticism should adequate financial provision not be made. To this end the administration’s viewpoint is that unless adequate finances can be guaranteed it will not be party to a take-over. It might be mentioned in this regard that the department had to provide considerable additional finances to allow the Phoenix Community Health Centre to function smoothly. In other words it is unacceptable that the administration, and consequently my department, should be responsible for the takeover of hospitals, where, because of inadequate finances, the hospital cannot function to the benefit of the community.

As far as the Cape Province is concerned I would like in the first place to mention that my department has successfully negotiated with the Western Cape Regional Services Council that they provide a community centre for the population of Cravenby. Included in this centre will be sufficient accommodation for my department to provide a multipurpose centre where services including social work, primary health care, psychiatric and general welfare services in regard to social pensions can be rendered. The department is also currently having a look at providing a multipurpose centre in Pelikan Park and Gatesville-Rylands.

I think, Mr Chairman, that this indicates that my department is not unaware of the shortage of facilities in the Transvaal and the Cape Province, but it must be accepted that by far the majority of the community resides in Natal and the backlog of services to this large community is only too well known.

Having highlighted the above which I am sure, Mr Chairman, hon members will agree, are steps in the right direction taken against seemingly insurmountable odds, I would now like to deal with the various sections within my department.

Psychiatric Services

Since the Administration: House of Delegates took over the running of the neuroclinics throughout South Africa in September 1984, the patients on the register have increased from 2 800 to 6 420. The prevalence of mental illness is alarming primarily because the need for psychiatric services has been neglected and psychiatric care was regarded as a stigma. As a result of the intensive therapy and follow-up services for the patients rendered by the staff who have devoted much effort in raising the standard of care offered to psychiatric patients, the benefits of comprehensive care have to some extent decreased the incidence of institutional care.

In the past year additional neuroclinics have been established at Stanger, Umzinto and Central Durban and plans are afoot to further extend the clinics to Ladysmith, Marburg, Pinetown and Shallcross. Two full-time clinical psychologists and three part-time medical officers have been appointed to the directorate during the year.

The pilot scheme which commenced last year with the co-operation of the Department of Education and Culture at the Damarose Pre-vocational School continues to be a success. One of the patients exhibited his products at the Royal Agricultural Show in the category “Crafts by disabled people”. He won first, second and third prizes in different categories. Two female trainee hairdressers have stated their own home business.

The concept of Hazelmere House as a half-way house for psychiatric patients will provide a place where the domestic and personal circumstances of a patient is analysed so that treatment can be appropriately directed. This will help reduce unnecessary certification to Fort Napier Hospital which occurs because of the lack of facilities in the coastal region.

District Surgeon Services

My department continues to provide medicolegal, curative and rehabilitative services at Verulam and Chatsworth and I feel that my department can justifiably be proud of its achievements in arranging for after hours post mortems.

During the past year 134 such post mortems were carried out in Verulam and Chatsworth. Although this service operates efficiently in predominantly Indian areas, we have no jurisdiction in the smaller areas. However, we can and have negotiated with the district surgeon and the police in these areas to provide the service. We cannot dictate to these officials if they are otherwise occupied and a post mortem is delayed.

Another first for the department is the establishment of the multidisciplinary counselling services involving doctors, psychologists, nurses, social workers and the SA Police at Chatsworth and Verulam for the care of abused children and their families.

In keeping with its stand that persons of other population groups will not be precluded from receiving services from this “own affairs” administration, it is worthy of note that Coloureds, Whites and notably Blacks have received services from our district surgeons.

School Health Services

During 1988, 43 nurses provided services to pupils at 443 schools in the Republic. A total of 111 266 pupils were screened, of whom 42 034 were found to have various physical defects. Of those pupils with defects 13 930 were referred for treatment. The remaining 28 104 were counselled and treated by the school nurses themselves.

In addition to their normal promotive and preventative care concerning mental and physical illness amongst school children, the school nurses, together with social workers, teachers and doctors, have introduced comprehensive support care for the child and the family on a voluntary basis after school hours and during school holidays.

Care of the Aged and Family Care

The department continues to provide clinical services and health education to the aged person and also to normal families. In addition, care is provided to the aged in the home environment where a total of 772 visits were made during the year.

Negotiations have been concluded with the Deputy Medical Officer of Health in Port Elizabeth for my departmental nurses to commence a preventative and promotive geriatric service at the old-age home in Malabar.

A recent survey carried out by my department revealed that 40 out of every 1 000 children born have genetic defects. To combat this, two genetic nurses have embarked on education and training programmes. In addition parent support groups have been established at various clinics and at special schools.

Phoenix Community Health Centre

The general curative service has expanded and a total of 74 154 patients were treated during the year. Physiotherapy and speech therapy have been extended to twice a week and three times a week respectively. Nutritional services have been introduced and this is proving valuable, notably to diabetic patients.

Further new services introduced include clinical psychology services and an after hours emergency service which treated 11 200 patients. To provide this latter service five additional nursing posts were created.

Dental Services

Additional clinics have been established at Lenasia South and Umzinto and the establishment of further clinics at Phoenix and Isipingo is planned.

The provision of specialist orthodontic services was taken over from the Department of National Health and Population Development in the last financial year and four specialists have been appointed on a part-time basis. Already 401 selected school children have been fitted with orthodontic appliances.

The dental clinic at Phoenix Community Health Centre has been refurbished with modern equipment and the clinic now boasts a new pantomograph x-ray machine which facilitates accurate diagnosis.

Throughout the Republic the clinics run by the department have treated 41 303 scholars and adults, and 37 502 primary school children participated in a caries prevention programme.

Oral and Dental Hospital

After many years of speculation and negotiation the green light has finally been given to proceed with the erection of a new oral and dental training hospital to be run in conjunction with the Faculty of Dentistry, University of Durban-Westville.

The delay in finalising this matter is attributable to the fact that a need norm had to be established, which was finally agreed to by the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development. The subsequent administrative steps will follow and final planning stages and building of the institution will now proceed in all earnest. At a meeting scheduled for 22 March 1989 between senior members of the department, the Faculty of Dentistry, University of Durban-Westville, and the Department of National Health and Population Development, a decision will be made as to the number of dental chairs required for the hospital.

The existing oral and dental training hospital continues to provide emergency routine and specialised dental services, together with the training of oral hygienists and dental therapists. In this regard it is worthy of note that a record 17 students graduated in 1988, 12 with degrees in dental therapy and five with degrees in oral health.

I am pleased that the Administration: House of Delegates has used these legislative and executive channels to obtain approval for the construction of the new dental academic hospital. However, as Minister of Health Services and Welfare, the interests and priorities of all the components of a health care delivery system have to be analysed as an integrated unit, rather than individually. Although the provision of a training hospital for dentists and therapists is an important step, the needs of the community at primary health care level, in accordance with level 3 of the National Health Services Facilities Plan, 1980, have to be considered.

The final report of the Browne Commission on Health Services identifies the following shortcomings, amongst others, in the present health care delivery system. Largely as a result of lack of central policy direction, there has been an under-emphasis of prevention and primary health care and overemphasis of expensive secondary and tertiary health services, which is inappropriate to the needs of the South African community.

The New Dispensation Health Plan for South Africa, 1986, recommends as a guideline that levels 1, 2 and 3 be own affairs responsibilities and levels 4, 5 and 6 be delegated responsibilities of the provincial administrations. Considering the above, another strong recommendation of the Browne Commission comes to mind, namely that the out-patient departments at several of the larger hospitals tend to be overcrowded, often by patients who require no more than primary health care at community health centres.

In 1987 the financial implications of the new academic dental hospital were calculated as R23 million in capital costs, R20 million in equipment costs and operating expenses of R10 million per annum. With these figures in mind I am tempted to equate the above financial implications with the provision of a primary health care system. An estimate would be that with a capital expenditure of R23 million and equipment costs and running costs of R20 million and R10 million per annum, respectively, three community health centres and five para-field clinics could be built. Three community health centres equivalent to the one at Phoenix could be established and made operational at a capital cost of R6,8 million each and equipment and running costs of R2 million and R3 million each, respectively. These health centres could be situated in Phoenix, Chatsworth and Pinetown, and the Mariannhill area, and each clinic would have the capacity to attend to 71 000 patients per annum. Five para-field clinics equivalent to the Verulam district surgeoncy could be established at a capital cost of R500 000 each and equipment and running costs of R100 000 and R350 000 each, respectively. These para-field clinics could be situated in Chatsworth, Phoenix, Northdale, Lenasia and Cravenby, and each clinic would have the capacity to attend to 24 000 patients per annum.

The type of primary health care established at these clinics can most appropriately treat and control chronic conditions of diabetes, hypertension, and heart disease that is so prevalent in the Indian community and the complications of which cause considerable morbidity and mortality.

Though the Administration: House of Delegates recognises a need for a dental academic hospital, the catchment population is such that the establishment of such a hospital will be a general affairs responsibility at level 6 of the Health Plan. As stated previously, the essential responsibility and priority of the Department of Health Services and Welfare, Administration: House of Delegates, is the provision of a primary health care delivery system to meet the immediate needs of the community at levels 2 and 3 of the Health Plan.

Hospitals

I am sure that by now everyone is aware of the fact that despite the critical financial situation R1 107 000 has been made available by my department in the Additional Estimates to the Transvaal Provincial Administration for the commissioning of the Lenasia South Hospital. The hospital opened its doors to patients on 11 January 1989. I would like to assure all hon members that, notwithstanding the provision of funds for this purpose, the standard of other services provided by my department will not be reduced, nor will any services be discontinued.

Negotiations and planning have started in earnest for the construction of the Phoenix Hospital. The community has waited many years for this facility. It is proposed to erect a 350 bed hospital and also to provide 150 after-care beds. My department has and is busy compiling the need norms in keeping with the parameters as set out in the SA Hospitals Norms document and discussions with the Department of National Health and Population Development are also scheduled for the meeting on 22 March 1989.

The department of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture is undertaking the administrative process of transferring land on which the hospital is to be built from the Natal Provincial Administration to the Administration: House of Delegates. In order to avoid the further fragmentation of health services, my department’s policy is to fund hospitals, the running of which is delegated to the provincial administration, as they have and can utilise the existing infrastructure.

Welfare

I do not need to tell hon members that I am committed to the development and promotion of the total welfare of our community as I am sure that all hon members are well aware of my attitude in this regard. Unfortunately my department inherited a serious backlog in the development of a suitable infrastructure for the delivery of welfare services and the moratorium imposed by the Commission for Administration has made it very difficult to improve the situation. Nevertheless, through the dedication of existing staff, my department is coping with the situation.

My department currently has a social work staff of 57. The case load carried out by these social workers amount to 4 017, which is an average of 70,5 per social worker. Measured against the internationally accepted norm of 30 cases per social worker, I am sure that hon members will agree that the social workers of my department need to be praised for their efforts. In my budget speech last year I painted a rather negative picture of the shortcomings of the welfare services due to the financial constraints and the shortage of staff. To a large extent this remains true. The poverty levels of our community are disturbingly high and necessitate preventative and development work to ensure that such problems can be addressed, thereby improving the quality of life for the lower socio-economic group. Family life is breaking down, as indicated by the rapid increase in divorce rates. The extended family system can no longer support its disadvantaged members. Alcohol and drug abuse is reaching serious proportions and there is grave concern with regard to the incidence of child abuse and behavioural problems of the youth.

It is imperative that these problems be addressed through the provision of resources such as day care centres, after-school care centres, facilities for the disabled and the aged and social work services. My department is earnestly endeavouring to meet these needs despite the critical shortage of staff.

My department is generally aware that there is a need to involve professional social workers in community projects. To this end, at the initiative of my department, various welfare organisations in Chatsworth have been brought together to formulate plans for a joint attendant care service to be rendered to aged and disabled persons in the community, rather than that these people be institutionalised.

During 1988 the R K Khan Hospital dealt with 375 cases of child abuse, whilst Chatsworth Child Welfare Society and my regional office at Chatsworth dealt with 145. In order to address this rapidly increasing problem of child abuse, my department has worked closely with the R K Khan Hospital, several welfare organisations and concerned individuals to establish a child protection unit. Very recently, a child protection unit has been initiated in Phoenix. However, the project is still in its infancy.

Funds were provided to various family welfare organisations to introduce home crafts in the community. Much success has been achieved. Numerous seminars were arranged, including seminars on community leaders, women’s groups and schools. Generally, however, the strain on our existing personnel and the great volume of statutory work has precluded my department from total community involvement. The advent of the multipurpose centres mentioned earlier in my speech will to a large extent enable social workers to become more involved in the community in future.

As a result of the Year of the Disabled in 1986, various investigations were carried out. These included, inter alia, the employment of disabled persons. It was quite clear that more protective workshops should be established by welfare organisations which will obviously need further financial assistance to do so. It is therefore my department’s intention to have a further look at the subsidy currently payable, in order that welfare organisations can be encouraged to provide this much needed facility.

I had the honour to inaugurate the newly established Regional Welfare Board of the Cape of Good Hope on 21 May 1988 and the Regional Welfare Board of the Transvaal on 28 May 1988. In addition, welfare committees were established in the Eastern Cape and the Western Cape on 11 February 1989 and 11 March 1989, respectively.

Persons are appointed to the regional welfare boards and local welfare committees on merit, taking into account their involvement in welfare matters, educational qualifications and expertise in the field of welfare. Consequently, the Transvaal Regional Welfare Board enjoys the service of two White academics in social work, while three White social workers serve on the Western Cape Welfare Committee.

Social Security

I was so concerned about the basic social issues that I have appointed a ministerial committee on social welfare to look into the broad welfare issues affecting the community. This committee includes parliamentarians, welfare experts and departmental officials, viz Mr B Dookie, M P; Mr P T Poovalingam, M P; Dr B T Naidoo, and departmental representatives comprising Dr P S Maharaj, Mrs O A Edwards, Mr J M Naidoo and Mr G Virasamy. Within the broad mandate, attention has been given to basic security issues which are presently being investigated. Certain recommendations are being submitted by the committee regarding, inter alia, parity with the means test of the Administration: House of Assembly relating, inter alia, to assets and limitations.

The donation of fixed property has long been a sensitive issue with implications for our traditional customs. Amendments to certain pieces of legislation have been proposed to address this issue. The financial implications of parity relating to the means test alone will add an amount of approximately R4,3 million, whereas parity of pensions and grants will amount to an additional R55 million on the pension budget for the year.

In addition to the consideration of pensions, programmes are being considered to promote self-help and independence and to develop protective employment opportunities. Here I want to mention that the hon member for Red Hill has informed me that they will be presenting their first interim report tomorrow at one o’clock. I want to express my appreciation to all those who have served on that committee thus far.

The assessment centres which will shortly be in operation, will assist to a very large extent in training those affected and placing them in suitable employment. In order to achieve these objectives there will be closer liaison with the private welfare sector and the professional division in a team approach. There has been an increase of just over 4% from the previous year in the number of beneficiaries for social pensions.

Social Relief

I want to bring to the attention of hon members that social assistance granted to indigent persons is another field in which my department has ensured that the community has always been helped where necessary. Of the amount of R816 178 that was expended during the year, R521 167 was spent on foodstuffs, R283 857 was spent on assistance for unemployed persons and R11 354 was paid to various local authorities to prevent the eviction of persons from their homes. A total number of 6 900 families involving 27 500 persons were assisted during the year. Poverty appears to be one of the major problems facing the community with over 29% being below the minimum living level.

In conclusion, I am of the opinion that my department can look back with some satisfaction at the success which has been achieved despite the financial and personnel problems with which we have had to cope. I look forward with confidence to the year ahead of us and I promise that my department and I will strive with greater efforts to provide the necessary health and welfare services which the community deserves and that the ten-year plan, explained in detail in last year’s budget speech, will not stay on the shelf and gather dust, but will be further implemented.

I also wish to place on record my sincere thanks to the Director-General, Chief Director, Directors of the Department of Health Services and Welfare, my private secretary and staff and all the personnel in my department for their co-operation and support.

Debate interrupted.