from D. G. Retief, teacher.

from C. E. Larkin, late of Cape Government Railways.

from H. R. L. Smith, South African Railways, Natal.

Statements showing results of working the South African Railways and Harbours, year ended 31st March, 1912.

said that before the first Order of the Day was read, he would like to refer to a question which had been put to him by an hon. member opposite yesterday, as to whether the railway construction proposals now before the House would be proceeded with. (An hon. member: “A little louder.”) Well, he had hoped up to the last moment that he would be able to proceed with the Bill during the present session. He believed the scheme, as a scheme, with perhaps slight modifications, which he would have suggested in committee, would have been an excellent scheme, and in the best interests of the country, although it might not give general satisfaction; indeed, no Railway Bill that he, or anyone else, had introduced had given general satisfaction.

Not universal satisfaction.

I know my hon. friend is satisfied with the scheme, at least his constituents are. (Laughter.) Continuing, Mr. Sauer said that unless they had a large sum of money, the largest that had ever been at the disposal of any Minister, it would be difficult to satisfy the demands of everybody. He regretted that at this late stage of the session it would not be possible to proceed with the Bill. (A Ministerial member: “What a pity.”) Yes, it was a pity, and no one regretted it more than he did. He hoped that before long substantially that Bill would be before the House again, with something in addition The fact that they were not borrowing money this year would enable them to come to the House later on with a larger scheme. Owing to the lateness of the session and the earnest request of members on both sides of the House to shorten the session, the Government had very reluctantly decided not to proceed with the Bill now before the House

communicated the message to the Senate, which stated that the House of Assembly had concurred in all the amendments made by the Senate, with the exception of the amendments made in clauses 37 and 38 and in the third schedule. The House of Assembly regrets that it is unable to concur in these amendments for the reason that, if adopted, they would have the effect of rendering more expensive the remedies of the bank against defaulting debtors in consequence of which the cost of carrying on the work of the bank would be increased, and the security for its advances would be diminished. The House of Assembly therefore trusted that the Senate would not insist on these amendments. The House of Assembly had further corrected a clerical error in the Dutch version of clause 23 by omitting the word “zestig” in line 49, and substituting “vijftig.”

Endorsement had accordingly been made on the copy herewith sent.

The message was approved.

said that, having been unfortunately unable to catch the ear of Mr. Speaker before he left the chair, he wished formally to move to report progress and ask leave to sit again. He did so, because he thought that there was an understanding that though the Government took Tuesday, members would be allowed to ask questions which they had put on the paper for that day. He did not think that the questions would occupy very much time, and the House could then resume in Committee of Supply.

replied that the arrangement was as stated by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort. He suggested, however, that the questions should be replied to as soon as Mr. Speaker was again in the chair. The questions and answers were not in his possession at the moment, and he hoped hon. members would be prepared to wait till Mr. Speaker again took the chair.

Do I understand, Mr. Chairman, that if we report progress now we could not resume to-day? If so, I will not press my motion.

was understood to reply in the affirmative.

Then I withdraw my motion.

drew attention to the present administration of the Department. In the recent postal campaign protests were made against administrative methods, and resolutions were sent to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs. These two Ministers must have received hundreds of such resolutions. At a very early stage of the session he himself asked the Minister what his reply was to the memorials, and the Minister said that he could not then give an answer. He again raised the question on the Estimates, and still no reply was given. The postal employees complained of a number of matters. First of all they complained of evasion on the part of the heads of departments. When they brought matters to the notice of the heads of the departments their points were evaded. In February of last year they asked for an interview with the Minister of Telegraphs, but their communication was not acknowledged for six weeks. They then went to the member of Parliament (the speaker), and a reply was forthcoming. They got the interview, and when they asked why the reply was not sent direct they were told that it was sent through another channel. Papers which had recently been laid on the table at his (the speaker’s) request, with reference to a petition re overtime calculation would show how unfair this system of evasion was. If the Minister wished to do away with Civil Servants approaching members of Parliament, then he thought that the best way to do it was to see that the officials received proper treatment at the hands of heads of departments. The executive assistants of the Cape Province presented a petition on May 17 of last year, and the petition was not sent forward to the Minister until October 20. That was to say that it was in the possession of the head of the Department for over five months before it was sent to the Government for its consideration. The men complained that they did not get fair treatment in regard to the representations which they made. They also complained that the Government was making some difference between the administrative branch and the executive branch of the Post Office, and one was in regard to the transport allowance. The men, he added, also wanted to have some assurance from the Minister with regard to their right of appeal to the Minister, which had been his justification for not recognising the association with which the men were connected. They said that the right of appeal had become a dead letter. He was told that since the protest campaign the procedure in regard to appealing to the Minister had been a little better; but the men wanted an assurance that the right of appeal was going to be something more than a mere nominal one. They felt that many things were said in the name of the Minister, who did not know anything at all about them.

drew attention to the case of a Mr. Wilson, employed in the Mafeking Post Office. This officer joined in 1902, after being engaged in London. He commenced with a salary of £120, and he was promised definitely fixed annual increments rising up to £320. In 1905 he was receiving £145, and in 1906 he was told he would get an increase of £15 until he reached £205. He was to remain at that figure for a considerable time before getting any increase. Then he was to be given an opportunity of increments at £10 per annum until he reached £250. The position to-day was this, that after ten years’ service in South Africa, and four years in the Imperial Post Office in England, he was drawing to-day £205, in a most expensive place like Mafeking, and there was no hope of anything more coming to him, and he was told he had reached the top of his class. Mr. Wilson was under the impression that he was brought to South Africa under a misapprehension, and that the conditions held out to him in the letter of the late Mr. Hoal while in London had not been observed. The hon. member said that he could not vouch for all these particulars, because the information had simply been supplied to him, but he had no reason to doubt them. If they contrasted the salaries paid to the postal men, compared with those of other departments, the salaries paid to the postal men were very low indeed. What he maintained was this, that after the Civil Service Commission was appointed, the Post Office Department ought to be the first to be overhauled. There was no doubt that there were grievances, and the sooner they were investigated the better it would be.

said he supported the statement made by the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle (Mr. Alexander), with regard to the discontent that prevailed at the Post Office. He regretted that they had to use these methods to draw the attention of the Government to these matters. The attention of the Government had been drawn in the past, but the Post Office people had not been able to get their grievances remedied. He was glad to hear that something of the nature of an inquiry was going to be made into these grievances. Proceeding, the hon. member said that while attention had been drawn to the higher branches of the services, he thought it advisable to call attention to the case of learners. When retrenchment came about many of these learners were moved up to fill the places of the people retrenched, and it was found that this worked out very badly as far as salary was concerned for the learners, who were deprived of their proper appointments and increments in salary. It seemed to him that in spite of the unfortunate circumstances which necessitated these economies, it was unfair that they could not carry out the bargains they entered into with these employees, now that they were in a position to do so. Then, again, he would like to point out that this debarred the learners from getting their pensions if they had to retire at the age laid down. What they asked was that if there was an inquiry into these things the Minister should see that, as far as possible, these grievances were remedied. Another question that he would like to ask the Minister was: at what age telegraph boys were started in the service? Probably the Minister would say they were started only when they left school, but, judging from some of the diminutive fellows which he (the hon. member) saw, he did not think that they had all arrived at an age at which they should leave school. It would be far better in some of these cases were the boys to stay at school a little longer. He wished to know whether the Minister would not follow the example of the Postmaster-General in the Old Country, in the way of making provision for the future of the messengers employed in the Telegraph Department? He suggested that classes should be held, and that the boys be given a chance of improving themselves and getting on in the service.

referred to the clerical assistants mentioned in the vote. These Estimates were framed some time before the Public Service Bill went to a Select Committee, and there had been an amendment to clause 2 of the Bill, which brought certain postal officials into the administrative and clerical division. The salary fixed for this division began at £100 a year, and they went up in three grades. Was it the intention of the Government to take these men into the grade? If the Public Service Bill became law, these men would claim to come under that clause. At present it was difficult to reconcile these Estimates with the clause he had mentioned in the Public Service Bill.

said he would just like to bring two little telephone matters to the notice of the Minister. Subscribers in Johannesburg within the two-mile radius paid £5 a year; those outside that radius paid a good deal more. One of his constituents lived just three-quarters of a mile outside the radius, and had to pay a sum of £11 5s., which he thought was most disproportionate. Then he wished to refer to the question of telephone connection with Albert, also in his constituency. They applied for a connection, and they were told that they would get an answer, but they did not. Then they wrote on January 8, and they got a reply to the effect that they could not get the connection. Twelve inhabitants were willing to subscribe, and he asked the Minister to go into the matter again.

referred to the case of the Free State postal and telegraph clerks. These men were paid very badly, he contended, and he regretted that no provision was made for the case. Most of them never got any further than a salary of £250 to £300. Now they would be called upon to contribute to the pension fund, which was not hitherto the case, and that would handicap them very severely He knew of married men with families receiving £200 per year. He hoped the Minister would look into the matter and see what could be done.

pointed out that in his district the various police posts were a considerable distance from each other. He hoped they would be provided with telegraphic communication, which would greatly assist the police in capturing criminals. He asked for a telephone between Middelburg and Pokwani.

appealed for an equitable rate for parcels, pointing out that the rate for the Union was 8d. per 1b. and oversea 9d. per 1b. He thought there was need for a change.

said he agreed with what had been said about the low salaries of postal clerks in the Free State. He urged the Minister to inquire into the present dissatisfaction among postal and telegraph clerks, and see what could be done. Free State officials were dissatisfied at being asked to contribute to the Pension Fund. Another matter he wished to mention was that he had noticed that economics were being effected in regard to the conveyance of mails in the rural districts amounting to about £14,000. Retrenchment in a matter of this kind he regarded as false economy. After all, the people in the country districts were taxpayers, and they had contributed towards the postal facilities of the other parts of the country. Why should they now be deprived of the postal communication, he wished to know. Furthermore, if they wished to educate the country they should give them every facility, and by retrenching on the conveyance of mails they would take away those facilities. (Hear, hear.) In the Hoopstad district the mail from Hoopstad to Vergezicht had been cancelled, also that between Vergezicht and Bultfontein, and this meant that the whole of that district was without any mail service at all, which would have disastrous effects. He urged the Minister to see that this was altered.

said he thought the public of the Union generally were greatly indebted to the Post Office for the very excellent way in which the service was conducted—(hear, hear) and the House was all the more ready, therefore, to receive any complaints from the men. There were over 5,000 men in that Department, and he could generally support the statement made by the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle (Mr. Alexander) as to the conditions under which a very great number of these men gave their services to the country. Many cases of the same kind had been brought to his notice, as had been brought to the notice of his hon. friends. It was high time that the Minister who was to be should pay a little more attention to the wants of the men. Hon. members had been rather unfortunate that session in bringing the matter to the notice of the Minister in charge, and out of sympathy for their hon. friend (General Smuts), who was pressed by business they had kept quiet. But because they had been silent the Minister must not think that they had no serious matters to bring to his notice. It would have been better, however, if these complaints could have been inquired into by a Select Committee. He wished to impress upon the House that they could not have any better work, unless it were the higher work of the Government, brought before its notice, than that performed by the postal and telegraph employees. But the House would be wanting in its duty if it did not give all reasonable attention to the complaints and demands of the employees, for the whole of the work of the Department was upset by the complaints of the workers.

One could not help wondering at these men, who worked hard from morning to night, and were subjected to all sorts of impertinences by rude members of the public, and at the same time pinpricks from their superior officers. The wonder to him was that these men did not revolt or strike. (Hear, hear.) When he thought how really small their demands were, and how easily they could be satisfied by a little civility, one marvelled why that little civility was not extended to them. A vast number of complaints dealt with the want of civility on the part of superior officers. There was nothing more galling when a man made a reasonable complaint than that he should be snubbed, and it was against the spirit of the “jack-in-office” that the men rebelled most, and, as he thought, very justly so. He had been struck with the reasonableness, courtesy, and temperance with which the men urged their complaints, and that they should receive no attention called for some inquiry. In conclusion, Sir Bisset said the House would like to know how the negotiations regarding the mail contract were proceeding. Hon. members did not ask for secrets, but they would like to know that there was some prospect of an agreement being arrived at.

asked for information with regard to the positions of surveyors and inspectors, which were looked upon as “plums” by the men. Could these appointments be made from the ranks of the postmasters? The hon. member urged the importance of telephone extensions in the outlying districts, more especially his own district.

referred to the “Postal and Telegraph Guide.” Hitherto the information in it had been of a very full character, but recently some of the information it contained had been omitted. As to the parcel post, that was run on lines that gave general satisfaction, but it was capable of improvement. Agricultural produce by parcel post was charged at the very low rate of 1s. per 11 1b., whereas ordinary goods were carried at the very high rate of 8d. per 1b., a disparity which he considered it was difficult to explain. He believed that if the rates on ordinary parcels were reduced there would be a considerable increase in the parcel post business.

urged the construction of a telephone line between Oudtshoorn and Ladismith, via Calitzdorp. At present these centres were served by a single telegraph line, and he considered that if a telephone line were constructed it would be a great convenience. Representations had already been made, and he hoped the Minister would do something in the matter.

urged the introduction of automatic stamp machines in his constituency.

considered that the policy of extending telephones would commend itself to the committee. He particularly dealt with Natal, and pointed to the usefulness of telephones in the detection of criminals and in cases of illness. He also urged the re-opening of a postal agency at a certain siding on the South Coast Railway.

said that the conveyance of mails in his district cost £500. The distances between the centres were too great to be covered by cart, and he thought the Minister should introduce the motor car. By doing so the Government would save time and money. He had already tried to persuade the Department to give the district a telephone, but the reply was they must wait until they got a railway, because the cost of conveying material would be very great. He hoped the Minister would give these matters earnest consideration. The little hope of a railway had exploded, and so he thought there was more necessity for these improvements.

asked if provision were going to be made for telephonic communication in the Cathcart district? Was this included in the present Estimates?

said that the Postmaster-General had always treated the North-west sympathetically, yet he (the speaker) considered that the question of cost was taken too much notice of in the matter of the conveyance of mails. To expect each particular postal service to pay its own way was not reasonable. He urged that for the education of the people and the development of industries and commerce, a good postal service throughout South Africa was essential.

urged the need of the opening of country telegraph offices for one hour on Sundays for the receipt of urgent messages of a domestic nature. He also urged that the telephone system should be extended to certain portions of the Transkei. He pleaded that the time had come when the newspaper post for foreign lands should be reduced. The hon. member said that there was one gap in the circuit of telegraph lines in the Transkeian Territories that should now be completed. He added a few words in support of the movement for the official recognition of the men’s association, and drew attention to the claims of men employed in country offices for overtime to be paid.

said he could endorse what had been said by the hon. member for Ladismith in regard to the telephone service between Ladismith, Oudtshoorn, and Mossel Bay. He expressed the hope that steps would be taken to connect Riversdale with Mossel Bay. He pointed out, as to the connection between Mossel Bay and Oudtshoorn, that the existing line was unable to cope with the existing volume of business, and that vexatious delays were taking place daily.

said that, while recognising the great public advantage of the agricultural parcels post, he thought steps should be taken to have the service put on a proper footing, and he read a letter from a correspondent complaining of the way in which the mails had been spoiled by coming into contact with oil from butter carried in the agricultural post. He submitted that the parcel rates on articles produced and manufactured in the country should not be higher than the rates on unmanufactured articles, the produce of the country In reference to the question of opening country telegraph offices on Sundays for an hour, he urged that the Department should proceed very circumspectly in this matter, and mentioned one instance where the experiment had been tried, with the result that the messages concerning shares were overwhelmingly large as compared with domestic messages. In regard to the telephone system, while he wished to congratulate the Department on the great extensions that had been made in this matter, he hoped the day was not far distant when the charges in the Cape Province would he reduced to the same scale as in other parts of the Union. On the question of the official recognition of the Post Office Association, he would ask the hon. Minister to disabuse his mind of the idea that anything occurred at these meetings which either the head of the Department, or the Minister himself, could not hear. In these associations only grievances that were tangible would be discussed. What they ought to do was to get a deeper and broader view than the official view. The colleague of the hon. Minister, whose absence they all regretted, received a deputation, which included many members of Parliament. Immediately the deputation had been heard, the Minister put his hand into a drawer and drew forth a typewritten reply to the grievances they were deputed to approach him upon. This reminded him of Jedburgh justice, where they drowned the witches first and empanelled a jury afterwards to try them. He submitted that this was not a proper manner to receive a body of men. Surely it was an insult to the deputation and to the men to have a reply to their grievances before they were properly submitted.

pointed out that farming was progressing, up-to-date machinery was being used, and farmers were often hard pressed to get into touch with large centres. For that purpose he urged, wherever guarantees could be given, that they should extend the telephone service.

said he knew of one case where a tender for the conveyance of mails was accepted, and the tenderer had to provide for the carriage of passengers. But the tenderer was now also called upon to carry vegetables and fruit which passengers were taking with them, so that there was actually no room for other passengers. He hoped the Minister would see that people were paid for what they did. Postal service in country places should receive careful study.

pointed out that in his part of the country the weekly mail had been altered into a fort-nightly mail. At the time when this had been done people had thought that this alteration was due to the depression. He urged the Minister to change the state of affairs, and he maintained that the service would pay indirectly.

drew attention to the lack of proper telegraphic facilities in the eastern suburbs of Pretoria. There were no proper facilities over an area which extended from 15 to 20 square miles. Another point that he wanted to draw attention to was the Pilgrims’ Rest Post Office. He knew that it was decided to concentrate public buildings at Graskop, but this place was over a considerable range of mountains, and there was not a very good road between the two places. There was no doubt a great deal of business could be done at Pilgrims Rest. There was a little office there which often got crowded with raw natives, to the discomfort of people coming for their postal matter and telegrams. He thought it would be much better if they could give more accommodation to the black and white people. With regard to the telephone, he had no doubt that the Minister had read Sir Thos. Price’s valuable report on the telephone system of America. On a previous occasion he had urged the extension of the system of farm telephones. Much good work had been done, but more had still to be done. In his opinion an extension of this system was of great value in the social and material welfare of farming people. Farmers had to work a great deal harder than they had to do years ago, and very often they would not be able to spare a day to visit the dorp. Of course, the storekeepers would benefit also, because an order might be given over the telephone, which, if it had to wait till the farmer went to town, might be cancelled on reflection. (Laughter.) The extension of such a telephone system would tend to make life more bearable on these lonely farms, and if they wanted people to settle there, especially the women, they should see that this system was extended as much as possible.

He had received representations from the Northern Provinces, from Natal, from the Free State, and even near Cape Town complaining of the charge that was imposed by the Department. He knew one instance where a member of Parliament had to pay £300, or the interest on that sum, and 6d. a message, and then he was only connected with the railway station. If he had done it himself at would only cost £50. Of course, it was impossible to ask an officer of the Department to depart from that system of communication as it existed at present, and run the wires along farm fences instead of putting up poles along the route. But it was done in other countries, and it made the use of the telephone possible even in very big districts. But this was a question of policing the country. He would refer to the Harrismith district, with which he was intimately connected. It was on the borders of Basutoland and Natal. There were certain police stations. If they had a telephone system it would be possible, in half-an-hour, to circulate a description of the persons wanted in a case of stock theft, the number of stock missing, and every roadway over a radius of a hundred miles would be barred and watched. At the present time one had to go to a police station. Now the men were perfectly splendid for the work, but they were only human, and they could not cover the distances that could be covered by telephone. Half the number of police would be able to do ten times the amount of work if there were telephonic communication. Now they asked a man to guarantee £50 a year or £30 a year. That was the system, but his contention was that the system was wrong. The telephone system had come to stay, and if one man paid £10 a year he was sure that others in the district would follow suit within the next year or so. When they asked one man to pay for the whole installation, then they were putting the cart before the horse. It was a serious business, and he hoped that the Minister would give the matter his attention.

asked the Minister to have the telephone service extended to the Lydenburg district. A promise in regard to this matter had been made in the Transvaal Parliament as long ago as 1910, and nothing had been done yet. Surely the country was not so hard up that this matter could not be attended to. If they saw what was being done in other parts of the country they realised that the country districts were not being treated fairly.

put one or two small grievances before the Minister for his consideration. One was inaudible in the Press Gallery; but the other was a protest against allowing criminals and even lunatics to proceed by the same post cart as ladies and gentlemen were travelling.

asked whether the printers mentioned in the vote received any other consideration except their wages. He pointed out that they were being paid less than the minimum rate of pay that was given in other offices. He thought they should be placed on the same basis as outsiders.

gave expression to the pleasure of hon. members on the Labour benches at the recovery of the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs. They were, perhaps, his bitterest political opponents so far as policy was concerned, but he would like to say that whenever they came into contact with him they were met most courteously and considerately. They were glad that he had been able to at last turn his back on the great shadow which he had approached much too closely. The hon. member then said he wished to draw the attention of the Minister to the question of telegraphic communication in the big district which he represented. It consisted of a number of communities numbering from 200 white souls to 2,000, and they felt this lack of facilities so far as telegraphing was concerned. He thought the Minister might discuss, with the mining companies ranged in the neighbourhood, the advisability of remedying the state of affairs. Then he would like to draw the attention of the Minister to the case of mechanicians employed by the Post Office. They used to get sick pay, annual increments, could accumulate their leave, and were paid a fixed minimum wage. They wished to know whether they came under the Public Service Bill, and would be glad of some statement from the Minister on this particular point.

asked the Minister whether the advice of the Law Department was sought before the new scale of allowances for men in the Transvaal was arranged. The contention of the men was that discrimination had been made and that this was tampering with rights which they enjoyed before Union came into being. Before this discrimination was made was the Minister satisfied that the rights of these men were not being touched?

said that he had no personal knowledge of the matter that had been mentioned by the last speaker, but he would make inquiries. Continuing, he said that the debate had gone on for a long period, and, judging by the scanty number of members in the House, he did not think that it had stirred any deep feelings. Therefore he would not reply at any great length, and he hoped hon. members would forgive him if one or two of the points escaped his notice. He would first deal with the question of the protest campaign of the postal clerks, which had been mentioned by the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle. There was no doubt that a campaign was started and carried on rather vehemently in the Press and at public meetings. A number of points were urged as being worthy of the attention of Government, and at that time there was no doubt that many of these points had not been considered and could not be considered owing to the fact that the Public Service Commission had to inquire into these points. His hon. friend would agree that a great many of these matters had been settled to the satisfaction of the postal service. He thought the proper course was for the Public Service Commission, when appointed, to go into these grievances. These matters came up year after year, and if that course were adopted, it would be more satisfactory to Parliament, and he was sure that many of the difficulties would disappear.

drew attention to a letter which he had from the Association of Traders and Farmers in Willowvale. They asked for compensation in the case of cattle which died after inoculation for East Coast fever, on the ground that inoculation was nothing more than an experiment, while if the experiment proved a success the whole country would benefit. He moved the reduction of the vote by £5. Under Secretary of Agriculture, £660.

said that the appointment of an additional flockmaster for the Cape Province had been recommended as it was impossible for one man to do all the work. One man would inspect the one part and the other would inspect the other part. In regard to the question of the hon. member for Tembuland, he wished to say that the whole matter had been discussed on the main Estimates, and urged that it should not be raised on every possible occasion. He wished to repeat that the Government could not pay compensation for deaths through inoculation, which was totally voluntarily. There was absolutely no compulsion. He could, however, assure the hon. member that through this inoculation 18,000 animals had been saved, whereas otherwise without inoculation 95 per cent. died. Now these animals would be properly salted, and at many places 70 per cent, of the animals had been salted. (Hear, hear.)

I would not have raised the matter but for the document forwarded to me.

wished to know the reason for the dismissal of Scab Inspector Mare, of the Boshof district. Mare was thoroughly well qualified for the work, and was recommended by the head of the Agricultural Department, and there was no complaint against his work. His post was taken by a man who had local interests in the place, where, apparently, he could not act in such a disinterested manner as an official without an interest in the place.

replied that he would go into the facts of the case. After Union the whole position was gone into, and a number of these inspectors had been retrenched—not dismissed. Probably Mare was one of these. He did not remember any special circumstances. Possibly his work was not satisfactory. At that time, of course, there was an opening to retrench all the people whose work was not satisfactory.

referred to the case of Inspector Schutte, of Jacobsdal, and wanted to know whether it would be possible to reinstate him in the service.

in reply, said he would consider this matter. If there were no difficulty, and if he were a good man, there was no reason why Schutte should not be reinstated In connection with this matter he wished to say that one of the Senators had been accused by the last speaker of exercising undue influence upon the Department, but he wished to assure the House that he had made inquiry and found that the Senator had never approached his Department on this matter.

said he never made any attack upon the Senator referred to, but had only repeated what the public at Jacobsdal said. He had repeated what rumour said, and he had only said that it was rumoured. He had mentioned the matter because the people did not know why the inspector had been retrenched. He (Mr. Schutte) had received a letter from the Department, in which it was stated that he had done his work well, but that his retrenchment was due to reorganisation. Immediately after that someone else in the district was appointed. How could one call that reorganisation? The public therefore came to the conclusion that the reason given was not the true reason, and therefore looked for another reason. He had raised this matter so as to give the right hon. gentleman an opportunity of looking into the matter, as he thought the retrenchment might prove to be a mistake.

asked for information regarding the items, “Purchase and distribution of branding irons, £100,” “Five branding supervisors, £1,080,” and also details regarding fencing.

said it was to be regretted that Government was encouraging the branding of cattle in the old way, when there were more up-to-date methods, such as tatooing. Branding injured the hides.

said that they had provided on the main Estimates for 14 European guards for East Coast fever. He now saw that they provided for six more on the Orange Free State border. He could see no necessity for this, and would suggest that the money would be better spent on dipping tanks.

said he would like to know why it was decided to pay these men 10s. a day.

said that he had sent the Chief Veterinary Surgeon to see what reductions could be made in the number of East Coast fever guards. He recommended a considerable reduction on the line from Basutoland to the Transvaal Border. The recommendation was to reduce the number to 14, but the police considered that 20 guards were required. At any rate, six more people there at present were wanted by the police authorities. The people did not quite understand the position. But there were no dipping tanks on the line. They were only in Natal and the Free State. He hoped here that on the next Estimates there would be no guards at all. In regard to the fencing question, hon. members would see that on last year’s Estimates provision was made for branding and fencing matters. This year this had been retained, but as soon as the Land Bank Bill came into force the whole matter would fall under that Bill. Naturally, the existing Acts remained in force until the new Acts came into operation, and these amounts had been placed on the Supplementary Estimates to carry on matters until the new Acts came into force. In reply to Mr. Duncan, the Minister said that 5s. per day was in reference to temporary appointments. A man who received 10s. per day had to have his own horse and had to attend to it.

Mr. Schreiner withdrew his amendment.

again urged that there was no necessity to keep 20 men on the border as East Coast fever guards.

said that on the main Estimates they had an item of Under-Secretary for Agriculture, £1,000, and he found on the Supplementary Estimates one under-secretary, £660. It would appear from the votes as if there were two under-secretaries.

explained that the Public Accounts Committee had gone into this matter, and recommended that they should have a second Assistant Secretary of Agriculture to supervise agricultural schools. He quite agreed with this, because he thought it was in the interest of the country that there should be proper supervision of the schools, so that one good man could devote all his time to see that matters were going on all right, and that was now proposed on the Estimates. There would therefore be two Under Secretaries for Agriculture, one of whom would deal exclusively with agricultural schools.

said it seemed to him that they were now going to vote an extra £660.

replied that he (the Assistant Secretary for Agriculture) would receive £850 per year. The £660 had been placed on the Estimates because part of the year had already passed.

said he took it that if they voted this salary, whatever salary had been voted in another place would lapse.

said he would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture to consider the case of a Mr. Mare, who had been a stock inspector in the Boshof district. This man had been for six and a half years in this service, he had the approval of all the chiefs in the Department, and he was backed by 60 per cent, or more of the farmers in the district, but he had apparently incurred a certain amount of unpopularity among a small section by doing his duty, arising, it was believed, out of a certain prosecution. He had forwarded a petition signed by 60 farmers in his district. He had been dismissed. There was no complaint against him, and he asked for justice. He hoped the Prime Minister would make a note of the case.

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he was appointing a new man in this post from outside the Agricultural Department?

No.

said he did not yet quite understand the position. The Supplementary Estimates said the amount to be voted was £660, for part year only. He supposed that would be for about nine months from July 12. He would like to know what was to be the position of these two officers. They had got a Secretary and an Under Secretary, and now they proposed to appoint a second Under Secretary. Surely there must be some degree of seniority between these two Under Secretaries.

said he would like to draw the Minister’s attention to the question of grants to agricultural societies. Subsequent to Union it was found that there had been certain inequalities with regard to grants to agricultural societies in the Cape Colony, and a circular was sent out actually and definitely promising sums of money. This money was still due to them. On the strength of the promise received, these societies began spending money perhaps more lavishly than they would have done had they not been promised this money. To their great dismay they received a circular stating that the position was precarious, and they were not likely to get this money. This had embarrassed to some extent these societies, because if they had not spent in the belief that they were going to receive these amounts, nothing would have been said. He would ask the Minister if this money which had been promised could not be paid to them?

replied that his intention was not to appoint a new man. He wished to take one of their best experts to do the work. But a number of these people were receiving £1,000 per year whilst others received less. The £660 set down was for only part of the year. Of course, another man would have to be appointed in the place of the expert appointed, and the new man would take the old salary. Replying to the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet, the Minister of Agriculture said that in regard to the constitution of the agricultural societies it seemed impossible to give satisfaction to everyone. Every place had these sorts of societies. (Laughter.) Last year they had tried to put the matter straight, but he was not aware at the time that a number of societies were already in arrear before Union. These societies were in the Cape and Natal. In the Cape £4,000 was in arrear, while a large amount was in arrear in Natal. He was willing to continue to give such support as would have been given had there been no Union.

The amendment was withdrawn.

moved that this vote be deleted. His reason for doing this was that he wished to deal with a matter of district surgeons. He had had letters from district surgeons complaining bitterly against the increased work which the Government had put upon their shoulders.

This vote had nothing to do with district surgeons, it had only to do with the Census, therefore the hon. member was out of order in raising the question.

said he would like to ask a question with regard to this census expenditure. On the original vote it was £2,390. Now they asked for a larger vote of £4,000.

said the vote was accorded because the Census had really taken up more time and money than they thought. This vote was necessary to complete the work.

desired to raise the same issue as he had previously raised, but was called to order.

desired to know what these Special Justices of the Peace were for? Were they to take the place of those lawyers, bankers, doctors, and parsons that the Minister of Justice said were not fit to sit on a Licensing Court?

said the hon. member had got hold of the wrong end of the stick. They were not appointed in connection with Magistrates’ Courts at all, but for special work in outlying districts.

referring to the vote for £750 for the Magistrate’s salary and allowance, said he thought this must be an old appointment and asked why it was overlooked?

said, as the Minister of Justice was engaged in other places, he could not give him any information, but he thought it must be some mistake in the main Estimates which they sought to rectify.

May I make the suggestion to the Hon. the Minister to let the vote stand over until the Minister of Justice has returned? He moved accordingly.

The motion was agreed to.

On vote 19, Prisons and Reformatories, £875,

moved that the vote stand over.

Agreed to.

On vote 20, Mines, £6,000,

moved a new vote in substitution of the old one, (page 1,226 of the “Votes”).

asked a question with reference to £600 for the Phthisis Board. On what basis were members to be paid? He thought it a very small sum.

reminded the hon. member that the pay of the members of this Board was fixed by the Minister. Besides, he was only making provision for seven months at the most.

said that there was a more important question than the mere matter of the salaries that were to be paid to the members of the Board. The question he wished to ask the Minister was whether he expected to get good inspectors for the money which he had placed on the Estimates? The inspection of the mines had been grossly inadequate in the past, and it was of the greatest importance that they should get superior men as inspectors. They should try and get men with mining experience, and not men who came with diplomas from colleges merely. It was false economy to get inefficient men and pay them badly. He would also like to ask the Minister whether he would personally see that these men did their duty? He pointed out that there was no independent inquiry into accidents at the present time. Instead of being conducted by a magistrate, they were conducted by an inspector. It was wasting time to talk about salaries when matters which were of the greatest importance to the welfare of the country were at stake.

said that they did not consider the point mentioned an unimportant matter at all. If the hon. member had taken notice of what they laid before the House on the Mines Regulation Bill, he would have voted with them when they suggested that the inspectors should be allowed to go down the mines at any time, night or day. The matter was beginning to be understood by hon. members, and he wanted to drive the point home. Four inspectors were not sufficient. If they had 24, it would not be sufficient, especially as they could not go down unless they gave notice to the head workers. That was the crux of the question.

said he did not catch the drift of what the hon. member said, but he would say this, that he himself introduced a large number of amendments when the Regulation Act was before the House, and they were rejected. He would like to ask the Minister when they were going to get the report of the Mines Department. For 18 months there had been no report. They were without information about the largest industry in the country, while they received shoals of two penny reports about silly things which they could do without.

said that the evidence given before the Select Committee showed that £1,800 was not enough to provide the extra staff that was required. In 1909, 915 men were killed and 1,677 injured, while 16,500 men were treated for accidents in 1910. That showed the necessity for rigid inspection.

pressed the point of periodical medical examination of the natives on the mines.

Under which head?

Phthisis. Continuing, he said that the Transkeian Native Council passed a resolution to the same effect. Then the Minister might take the trouble to see that the names of natives killed and injured were published for the information of their relatives and friends. He urged that the Minister should meet this request, as it was an important matter.

said he would not rest in his endeavours until periodical examination had been provided for.

in reply to the hon. member for Victoria West, said that the report was being prepared at the present moment. Instead of having a report to December 31 last, they would have one, say, up to September or June.

If he found that four inspectors were not enough he would appoint more and would make provision in an additional appropriation or unforeseen expenditure Bill next year. But he had been advised that four were sufficient. He did not consider it was the duty of the inspectors to do the work of the managers of the mines. They could not have inspectors standing behind every rock driller; the appointment of a whole army of inspectors would seriously interfere with the working of the mines without any corresponding benefit.

With regard to the question of the examination of natives, he could not see how that came under that particular vote, but he would look into the matter, and if he found it could be done, would take the necessary steps.

said he blamed the Mines Department for not having a report ready. Surely the statistics were prepared up to date. They had appeared in some form every month, but they were not presented to the House, and they came cut in a form which it was almost impossible to follow. The report was as easy to prepare as a good many of the reports that had been before the House already. He maintained that the inspectors ought to be responsible for the conduct of the mines and for looking after the safety of the miners. They were in the coal mines in England, and the mines on the Band were, or ought to be, less dangerous. How could the manager serve two masters; he had to serve his directors and attend to speeding up. The whole evil of a large percentage of these accidents came from speeding up. The capitalists built mills too large, which had to be supplied with rock, and great dangers were, in consequence, incurred. Those were things inspectors ought to look after.

supported the contentions of the hon. member for Tembuland. He did not know upon whom the responsibility fell, but he did know that parents and relatives of boys working in the mines complained that in some instances the boys never came back, and nothing could be learned about them. Surely it was a matter that ought to engage the attention of somebody.

said that he hoped the provision the Minister of Mines had mentioned regarding additional inspectors would be retrospective, if not it would be useless, for he would not be able to appoint inspectors otherwise. In Australia they had at least two inspectors at every mine appointed by the men working there. Thus they had practical men on the spot, who knew the whole workings of a particular mine; these men were protected by the Government. If the hon. Minister would consider that, and appoint miners themselves down their own mines as Government inspectors, and protect them, he would do away with all the difficulties he appeared to expect of having to appoint an army of Government inspectors. The Government inspectors should be allowed to go down the mines whenever they liked.

The new vote was agreed to.

moved that the sum of £10,000, representing building grant for teachers’ training department at the Victoria College, be deleted. He pointed out that it was an out and out grant, and that no interest was charged. It was making a clean present to the institution of £10,000. The proper method was to have taken the matter under the Loan Estimates. He protested also against the preferential treatment which had been meted out to these institutions. That was a matter he could not too strongly emphasise. At Grey College, Bloemfontein, a professor was maintained at a salary of £650 a year with but two students; he commenced with seven, the following year it was five, and now it was two, and these had each a bursary of £50, so that the total cost was £750, and now it was proposed to give the Victoria College, Stellenbosch, a grant of £10,000. In the Estimates they would find that under the Act of 1882 the sum of £12,000 was allocated to the South African College, upon which interest would have to be paid. He would like to know where there was any justification for such preferential treatment. The circumstances were exactly the same. He thought it was a burning shame, and he should certainly press the vote.

said he took it that the grant to the Victoria College was a sort of little make-up. He had on former occasions drawn attention to the meagre way in which the Victoria College had been treated in comparison with other colleges, but whether that was the best way of making a balance he was not prepared to say. What he wanted to ask, however, was whether the Minister had got any account or any idea of the number of promises made by the Administrator in his recent vice-regal tour. (Laughter.) What was the gross amount of his promises? He had promised £40,000 for a school in Port Elizabeth, and he (Mr. Merriman) was told that the expenditure would be of a most wasteful description. Who was going to make good that promise? How much had the Administrator promised in Kimberley and elsewhere? Every place he went to he made a promise. He would be glad if the hon. Minister could give him some account of the gentleman’s progress through the country; it would be of great interest.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

said that in connection with the South African College New Medical School, the grant was not being made on the £ for £ principle, because they recognised that when a new institution like a Medical School for South Africa was started, extra assistance should be rendered. They had been talking a good deal about the necessity of getting efficient teachers, and at Stellenbosch an attempt was being made to provide them. He intended recognising the Professor of Education at the South African College next year. He could not follow the arguments of the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger).

said the Minister was very clever at drawing a red herring across the path. (Opposition cheers.) The Opposition did not complain that teachers were going to be trained at Stellenbosch, but of the unequal treatment shown by the Minister. Two years ago at the S.A. College arrangements were entered into for the training of teachers, but in this case the Minister declined to give a grant in aid, and to recognise the chair. But in the other case the Minister not only recognised the chair, but gave a grant of £10,000. Why this inequality? The teachers being trained at the S.A. College were just as valuable to the community as those trained at Stellenbosch, and perhaps they were more needed, because at the S.A. College an attempt was being made to train teachers of the highest and best class for the towns. The S.A. College was paying the interest on the whole of its loans out of its funds. This unequal treatment was part and parcel of the attempt being made by the Minister to rig up minor Colleges, and to bolster them up, and to keep back the College which was really the best-equipped College at the present time, and yet at the same time it stood as much in need of grants as any other College did. They were sorry that owing to the Bill having fallen through, they had not had an opportunity of ventilating this very important question at greater length. The Minister’s attempt to draw a red herring across the path was not quite creditable. They could not give sauce to the Stellenbosch goose unless they were prepared to give it elsewhere, and the College elsewhere was really handicapped because it had to give away so much of its funds in payment of interest, whereas other Colleges obtained a free grant, (Hear, hear.)

said really his hon. friend was a little unfair. One College had had about ten times as much loan money as the other. The fact was that Stellenbosch had been obliged to stagger along for many years, when it had a great many more students than the S.A. College.

It has not now.

He thought the S.A. College had done very well, and he had not a word to say against it. Surely they could acknowledge that fact without belittling the other place which, before the S.A. College had received so much Government money in the shape of loans, had struggled along and managed to educate more people than all the other Colleges put together. (Ministerial cheers.) He looked upon this vote as a tardy acknowledgment of some of the obligations under which Stellenbosch had placed this country. It was the Alma Mater of the most distinguished member in the House.

Who is he?

The Minister of the Interior, I take it—or Treasurer-General or Postmaster-General. (Laughter.) By many names we call him—at any rate, there he is. Stellenbosch has done good work for the country in every respect, and it has received very small grants compared with the others. I think the objection is a little ungracious, and I am surprised at its coming from an educational pundit like my hon. friend. (Laughter.) After all the money we threw away last night—

We didn’t.

It all depends where you have been sitting. Don’t let us get up a squabble between the two rival institutions. Of all the money poured out like water in this country this, perhaps, is going to be one of the most fruitful things on which we could spend it.

said he wished to know whether the training of teachers was under the control of this House or the Provincial Council. At the present moment, so far as he knew, the training of teachers did not concern this House at all.

Oh, yes, it does.

Since when has it taken over the training of teachers?

I will tell you.

said that he was anxious to hear. Proceeding, he said it seemed to him an extraordinary thing that they should go away from the old-established custom of the Cape Province and single out one college for a special grant, which was not going to bear interest, and which was on totally different terms to the grants made to other colleges.

said that the hon. member would remember he announced in the House some weeks ago, and the correspondence had since been published, that at a conference of the Administrators and the Executive Committees it was agreed that the training for third-class and second-class teachers should be under the control of the Provincial Councils, and that everything above these two classes should be left to the Union. The Provincial Councils of the Cape and Natal had passed resolutions confirming the decision of the conference.

said that surely there were two partners to the agreement. Surely the Minister who was responsible to this House should table a resolution that this House agreed to the training of third-class and second-class teachers being left in the hands of the Provincial Councils and the training of other teachers left to the Union. Were they to understand that if the Provincial Councils passed a resolution to take over a certain thing this House would have no say and would lose control of the matter? Surely that was an extraordinary position for the Minister to take up? Surely the House should have the papers dealing with the matter, and should have an opportunity of considering whether it would part with anything that belonged to it at present. If the training of teachers for the T2 certificate was part of higher education, and the Minister had said it was, then it was necessary to ask the House to pass a resolution in order to allow the training of these teachers to be handed over to the Provincial Councils. The position was an extraordinary one. From the correspondence published, it would be seen that there was considerable disagreement on the subject. There was a meeting of the Directors of Education in Bloemfontein, but they did not agree to the proposal, and it was only after discussing it down here in Cape Town that the Administrators agreed to it, possibly owing to pressure brought to bear upon them by the Minister. All the Provincial Councils had not agreed to it.

They have not met yet.

And you don’t know whether they are going to agree to it or not. Proceeding, he said the point he wished to make was that the training of teachers was up to the present moment still under the Provincial Councils and why should they put down this grant on these Estimates?

said he considered that there should be no more of this handing out of £10,000 to one college or another, just because it happened to be what he might call the importunate widow. He hoped that they would get away from this evil. He was surprised at the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) advocating this principle as being one which came from the Transvaal. He thought that this step was in the wrong direction. The right hon. member for Victoria West had told them that the Victoria College had struggled along without sufficient Government assistance, whereas the South African College had been blessed with more than enough of this world’s goods. On looking up the report of the Commission which sat on Colleges, he found that at the South African College the cost per student, taking everything into consideration, was 94, of which £43 was borne by the college itself and £51 by the State. That was very nearly £ for £. At the Victoria College the cost per student was £54, of which only £17 was borne by the college and £37 by the State. That was £2 for £1. Now, how in the face of that could the right hon. gentleman make out that the Victoria College had got nothing from the Government hitherto?</p> </speech> Mr. J. X. MERRIMAN (Victoria West)

said that for many years it had been a mystery to him why the Victoria College got so small a grant compared with other institutions. That college had done the best work in the whole Union until quite lately, and got the smallest grant of any.

said that his argument was that the South African College in its relation to the State, was on the pound per pound basis, whereas the Victoria College was on the basis of £2 for £1.

said that one never knew where the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman) was going to break out in these matters. (Laughter.) He wished to point out to him that the Victoria College had received exactly the same treatment as any other college. If the South African College borrowed more money it had to pay more interest, but there was absolutely no differential treatment. The Victoria College devoted its attention to literary work, whereas the South African College went in more for scientific work, and that, of course, cost considerably more, but the treatment of the two colleges had always been on the same lines. There had been no differential treatment, and it was because they were now departing from that principle that he wished to protest. There was no sense of justice or fairness in the vote of £10,000 to the Victoria College. The Minister had said they were doing work for the State. The South African College was assuredly doing exactly the same work for the State. Then this Union Parliament had no right to interfere with the education of teachers below T2. He took it that this was for the education of graduates. The education at the South African College was also for graduates. They had at the present moment 20 students in that class. They had 11 last year. They were doing work for the State on exactly the same lines as the College at Bloemfontein, and they did not get a sixpence for it. Yet the other College got £700 from the State. There was no principle or justice in it.

said he was sure his hon. friend (Mr. Jagger) would not accuse him of being hostile to the South African College. If he understood the hon. gentleman rightly, the position he took up was that this was differential. If £10,000 had appeared on the Estimates for the South African College, he supposed the hon. gentleman would have been satisfied. (Dissent.)

£10,000 for each.

said he knew both Colleges very well. He had been educated in the South African College, and he had been on the Council of the other. He would say to his hon. friend that he should let Stellenbosch get this, and quote it as a precedent for a similar request on behalf of the South African College another year. That would be consistent with the attitude he had taken up. If the hon. gentleman’s contention were that they were departing from a long practice, there would be something in his argument. As to the argument that there was a differentiation between the Cape and elsewhere, that was a state of things that he did not think should continue. In regard to the question of higher education, raised by the hon. member, he would say that he would look upon the training of teachers as higher education. The hon. member said that the Minister entered into an agreement without reference to this House, and they could not accept it that they should provide this for the training of teachers, but the hon. gentleman was now asking them to accept that principle. Now was the opportunity for the House to decide whether the training of teachers should come under higher education. He (Mr. Sauer) said it ought. He thought it was a matter better dealt with by the Union than by the Provincial Council. The greatest want to-day in their educational system was sufficient highly qualified teachers. Many of their difficulties in connection with education would disappear if they had sufficient qualified teachers in Dutch, and a great many qualified teachers in English were also wanted. They had only to travel through the country to find this. He often came across teachers who ought to be at school themselves. He could not conceive anything of more importance to the State than the training of teachers.

said he cordially agreed with what had been said by the Minister of Railways and Harbours. He did not care a button for Cape practice or Cape lines. (Laughter.) Here was a proposal to expend £10,000 in order to establish a building for the training of teachers. He thought they had here a good opportunity of taking away the £20,000 which it was proposed to spend on the building at Pretoria to store Blue-books, and provide £10,000 for each of these colleges for the training of teachers. So far as education was concerned he did not think anybody could declare this vote to be a waste.

said he wanted to point out the mistake of the hon. member for Bloemfontein. It was not that they objected to a vote for the establishment of a training school for teachers. But there were certain laws which applied in the Cape Colony and which were still the laws of the Cape Colony, and these laws did not permit of this particular grant being made. The building grants of the old Cape Colony were under the old Act, that when you wanted to make a grant for building a college, no matter where it was, you had to do so on the principle that they gave them a loan and the Government paid half the interest and the college paid half the interest. They did not object to the Minister putting the money down, but it should appear upon the Loans Bill. They wanted to know why a sudden departure was made in order to assist a particular institution. He had known the Minister of Railways defend some difficult cases, but he thought that evening the hon. gentleman had excelled himself. He wanted to point out to him that there were other colleges in the Cape Province besides the Victoria College, Stellenbosch. There was a little energetic institution, which was having a hard struggle for existence, called the Rhodes College, at Graham’s Town. It was not one college against the other. By all means let them all go ahead Nothing could do more good than an institution to train teachers, of whom they were lamentably short, but he would ask them to adhere to the system which they had carried out and go on the law as they found it. He did not think they could now bind the House on the principle that the training of teachers should be considered as coming under higher education. He hoped they would divest themselves of the idea that this was a fight between the Victoria College and the South African College.

said that, as a man with an open and impartial mind, he was glad to be able to give his vote in favour of something being done for the Victoria College, although he regretted that he had not enjoyed the benefits of an education at that institution. As a matter of fact, he would be pleased at any time to vote for a similar grant being made to the South African College. Perhaps Cape Town had never applied for such a grant. He regretted the attitude of the hon. member for Cape Town, who objected to Stellenbosch receiving anything, because Cape Town did not receive anything. That sort of attitude should belong to the past. It was wrong to set the one against the other.

said the object of the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, was that other institutions should be placed upon exactly the same basis as the Victoria College at Stellenbosch. He (Mr. Runciman) wanted to ask the hon. Minister why, on the one hand, he had granted £10,000 to the Stellenbosch College, and had refused anything at all to the South African College for a similar purpose? The South African College Council applied for a grant of money to establish a Chair of Pedagogy, principally for the training of teachers, but the application was refused, though they did not ask for it on the terms that had been granted to Stellenbosch, but on loan. They had reason to complain when there was favouritism towards one College. Anybody who was connected with a School Board knew the difficulty of getting suitable teachers; this Chair of Pedagogy at the South African College had to be supported out of the pockets of private individuals, simply because they could not get a penny from the Government. He would like to know from the Minister of Education why he had refused the application of the Council?

said he was glad to find that the hon. Minister, when he thought it was necessary to establish a College for the training of teachers, put it in the place he thought most suitable for it.

said if the hon. Minister would take off this vote and put it on loan account, they would vote for it with both hands. If he would do that, nobody would object to it. For a great many years the question of grants was taken away from the arena of party politics in the Cape Province, and instead of one school being dependent upon the favouritism or good graces of the Ministry, all the schools were treated alike. Any school requiring a grant sent in its application, and, according to priority—assuming that regulations were complied with —that school got its grant. There was no question of the heat of politics or favouritism by the Ministry, and no question of setting up one place against another. The £ for £ principle was a sound basis upon which to place education. The hon. Minister had departed from that principle, and the principle he was introducing was that of a free grant. What applied to one would, of course, in time apply to another, and it was absurd to say they were going to draw the line at a school for the training of teachers. When they once got away from a sound principle, they did not know where they were. He would urge upon the hon. Minister not to begin this system of departing from the principle laid down by law and common-sense that each application for grants should be treated according to its priority. If he would consent to transfer this vote to the loan account, there would not be one single word of protest.

referred the hon. member to a certain item in the Estimates of last year of a special grant of £2,000 to the South African College and another of £2.600, not on the £ for £ principle.

That does not make it right.

said the reason why this £10,000 did not appear on the loan account was because it was for the training of teachers who were going to be semi-Civil Servants in the State. They were having to pay large sums of money at the present time for the training of their teachers. The hon. member for East London said they were making a new department for the training of teachers. As a matter of fact, they had been dealing with the training of teachers ever since Union. With regard to the Colleges, the Government had granted £2,000 last year to found extra chairs. It was not on account of favouritism that one was granted money this year and not another. A promise had been made of assistance to those who appeared to have been omitted this year. It would be found that all were dealt with equally alike. Such claims as were put forward would be considered on their merits.

said he would like his hon. friend the Minister to show him one single grant, which was not a grant in aid, where there was an out-and-out grant for building purposes?

was proceeding to cite the case of Maritzburg.

My hon. friend is talking about another Province, and has to go to Natal to find another case to put against a Cape College. The Minister knew that the conditions governing educational matters differed at Maritzburg from those of the Cape. What he (Colonel Crewe) asked for was merely equality of treatment for Cape institutions. His hon. friend had not answered one single question.

thought it was far better that local assistance should be rendered than that schools and colleges should be compelled to go to the Government for the whole of their funds. He thought the case under notice was one which might be removed from the Revenue Book, and placed in the Loan Book, on the lines of the old Cape Law.

trusted the Minister of Education would do nothing of the sort. They did not want any private individuals having a finger in the pie at all. The sooner that grants on the £ for £ principle were abolished, the better it would be for higher education in the Union. He thought the Minister of Railways and Harbours had placed his finger on the right spot when he said they would never be able to get sufficient highly-qualified teachers in this country until they were better paid. He trusted the Minister of Education would not be led away by the old Cape laws, which he (the speaker) thought were very narrow. They wanted to do away with a principle which made it possible for the richest schools to get the best grants and the poorest schools to get the smallest. Those who were of his (the speaker’s) way of thinking would work on until they got that law repealed, and when all education would be at the expense of the State.

The amendment to reduce the vote was negatived.

said he wanted to ask the Minister a very important question indeed. What was the amount of interest he was going to receive from the Railway—

I cannot allow that.

I don’t want to enter into a wrangle with the—(Cries of “Order, order.”) Mr. Merriman explained that he was under the impression that the vote under discussion was of another nature.

On vote 22, Treasury, £1,080,

wanted to know if the three assistants mentioned were to be incorporated into the service, seeing there were sufficient men in the service at the present time? Further, why were their salaries fixed at £280 when the amount should only be £260 according to accepted scale?

said that the gentlemen whose salaries appeared in the vote had been affected when the severe retrenchment was carried out in the Treasury Department, and it was afterwards found they had gone too far, and their services had had to be retained.

said he would like to ask the Minister of the Interior to give him an answer to the question he asked the other day. He said then he would give all the ins and outs of it.

The Chairman will not allow me to speak about the numerical columns. (Laughter.)