said he did not think that any employer of labour would bring out men simply to swell the ranks of the unemployed and reduce wages. As far as his experience as an employer of labour went, that was not the case at all. Another point that he wanted to draw attention to was that he saw nothing down on the vote for the insurance of public buildings. Formerly a matter of £8,000 was put down to cover this risk, but now it seemed the Government were going to take the risk themselves. Perhaps the Government might be justified in taking the risk on buildings amounting to, say, £10,000, but he did not think they ought to take the risk on such a building as Parliament House.

referred to the report of the Industries Commission. That Commission considered that in 50 years the coloured question would be a matter of great concern, but it did not doubt that in ten years native labour would be predominant in every industry. He pointed out how the coloured people were progressing in educational matters, and especially in industrial education. Here in the Cape practically every trade was in the hands of the coloured people. In the match and leather trades none but coloured people were employed. He held an end should be made to the present state of affairs.

pointed out that public works—Government works—was the matter under discussion.

said the hon. member had raised a very important question. On referring to the Auditor-General’s report, he found that it had been decided to discontinue this insurance. He thought the Government would take credit for effecting another saving. Insurance had been effected at a very cheap rate, after the Government had dispersed their insurance fund, which amounted to between £70,000 and £80,000. If the Houses of Parliament were burned down it would mean that the Government would have to bear a loss of something like £400,000.

said the conditions in the Cape and Transvaal were very different. In the Transvaal few coloured people were engaged in skilled labour.

Hon. gentlemen might express their views in regard to the Cape, but the northern point of view was also entitled to consideration, and the people of the North looked to the Cape with a great deal of alarm when they saw the results of the coloured labour in regard to Government contracts. As to what the right hon. member for Victoria West had said, there was no colour bar in the Trades Unions, and every trade was open to the coloured man. He heard of coloured men being barred, however, because they worked at half the wages of the European. He wondered what the lawyers would say if coloured lawyers were to start practice, and charge half the customary fees. Until such workmen worked at the same wages as the European they would continue to object to their presence. (Labour cheers.)

moved to further reduce the amount by £6,000, being £2,000 from the item “Running charges and maintenance expenses of lifts, lighting, pumping, laundry and other plants,” £2,000 from the item “General expenses, Government Buildings,” £1,000 from the item “Caretakers’ requisites,” and £1,000 from the item “Maintenance of fire and police alarms,” under sub-head K, “Maintenance of Government Buildings,” £37,300. He said that lump sums had simply been put down, and the items were too swollen.

said that he thought they had got back to mediæval times, when he heard the hon. member for Edenburg (Mr. Grobler) speaking—when there were the sumptuary laws, and when only a certain class could do certain work. These questions of wages settled themselves, and there was the law of supply and demand; and he did not think that Parliament ought to interfere and fix a minimum wage. The hon. member was proceeding to speak of Sir George Grey and the starting of schools for teaching industries to the coloured people, when

said they were now on Public Works.

said that the matter he was referring to had been dealt with, both by the right hon. member for Victoria West and the hon. member for Edenburg. However, he would not pursue the subject further. (Hear, hear.) When the vote of H.E. the Governor-General had been under consideration of the House, he had drawn attention to an item of £2,500, to which a note had been attached, and had asked for an explanation, but he had been told to bring it up under Public Works, and he now did so.

said he hoped that the Minister would accept the proposals of the hon. member for George. He referred to a paragraph in the auditor’s report; but the details could not be followed in the Press Gallery. Vote K ought, in his opinion, to go under Vote I, maintenance of grounds and buildings.

asked, it was understood, if it were not a fact that when the Education Department required buildings of a certain character the Public Works Department gave supervision and administration of a highly competent character at cost price?

asked what was the intention of the Minister with regard to the building of a new residence for the Governor-General in the Cape Peninsula? The Rondebosch Municipality had offered substantial monetary assistance to the Government if they would use Erinville and the adjoining piece of ground, Charlie’s Hope—(laughter)—which had been acquired by the military. He also wanted to know if the Government were going to build a bridge over the level-crossing at Rondebosch. The Government possessed the land which was suited to the purpose of such a residence. For all the year round the site at Rondebosch on the Camp Ground-road was to be preferred. If the railway were to build the bridge that was necessary and expropriate the tannery ground, a splendid road would be available. It would not cost the Government a great deal as the Railway Department had admitted its obligations. He thought the Government should give this matter its earnest attention, and see whether Charlie’s Hope was not the best of the sites that were available. He hoped the Government would co-operate with the local Council and the Railway Department. He thought that everybody would then be satisfied.

said that, as a matter of fact, it was a matter of indifference to the people of the Cape Peninsula whether Government House was at Westbrooke or anywhere. He was sorry if the last hon. member conveyed the impression that there was some dissension on the subject.

said it was unfortunate that cases such as raised by the hon. member for Ladismith should be discussed in the House. He went fully into the case, and satisfied himself that the action of his predecessor was right. Mr. Perry had not got the qualifications of the officer who had since been appointed. He was sorry he could not take the case any further. They knew that when an officer resigned he lost his pension and other rights. He agreed with the hon. member for Zoutpansberg to a certain extent as to the cost of smaller buildings, and he thought that sometimes the Department was too particular as to the class of material that was used for these buildings. So far as schools were concerned, these were built by the Department on the instructions of the Provincial Councils concerned, and, therefore, cheap or dear material was used according to the instructions issued. His hon. friend the hon. member for Von Brandis had referred to the amount of rent that was being paid by the Government, but he would point out to the hon. member that this was a vanishing quantity, and that less rent would be paid in the future. He might say that the Government had decided to give up insuring its buildings. One of the reasons for so doing was the fact that new buildings were being constructed on the modern fireproof pattern; moreover, the fire losses had been very light during the last few years. He did not think it was necessary for them to insure buildings constructed on the fireproof pattern. At the same time, he agreed with the suggestion that there should be some sort of sinking fund to cover any losses that might be incurred. He pointed out that since Union was established the Government had only received £170 from insurance offices. With regard to the question of the hon. member for Heidelberg as to the construction of a bridge across the Vaal River, he would give the matter his attention. Dealing with another question, he said that he had travelled all over the Union, but had heard nothing of dissatisfaction amongst the staff of his Department. The hon. member for George rather alarmed him by the hugeness of the reductions which he proposed to make in this vote. It would be impossible for him to think of accepting any of the reductions. He did not know whether the hon. member was right or whether he was wrong, but he knew he was wrong in some of the cases. (Laughter.) He could not cut down the temporary staff, as had been suggested, because most of the work ordered by that House would be at a standstill. So far as supervision was concerned, he would point out that the cost had been less than in any of the Provinces before Union, and 20 per cent. below the amount that used to be spent in the Cape Colony. Many of the public buildings had been very much neglected in the past.

pointed out that the Minister himself had reduced the sum for that purpose by £12,000.

observed that expensive gardeners were rendered necessary by the fact that they had expensive gardens. (Laughter.) One of these had been laid out to improve the appearance of the Union Buildings at Pretoria. (Cries of “Oh!”) He was quite convinced that the right thing had been done in the case of the gardener at Government House, who had only six years’ service, and the man who had taken his place had 16 years’ service. The hon. member for Worcester (Mr. Heatlie) complained of some road in the Cape; that was entirely a Provincial question.

The hon. member for Springs (Mr. Madeley) had complained that skilled labour was being introduced, and attributed all sorts of terrible motives to those who imported that labour. Government had not imported any skilled labour, and the Government contractors were particularly requested not to import skilled labour if suitable labour could be found in the country. (Hear, hear.) The question of the employment of coloured labour would have to be considered. He found it difficult to reconcile the keeping of coloured men out of work because of the colour of their skin. He did not propose to alter the state of things as they existed in the Union; it was a big question, and should be gone into very carefully. The hon. member for Victoria West naturally took up a different attitude from that of the hon. member for Springs.

He generally does.

said he wondered if the hon. member for Edenburg was consistent in this matter, and carried out his principles in regard to coloured labour on his own farm? (Laughter and cheers.) As to the question raised by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth, Central, the cost of maintenance should be added to the cost of building, but that course would cause more expense and would do no good. The matter raised by the hon. member for Newlands (Mr. Struben) was gone into before the purchase of Westbrooke was effected, and there was no intention of altering it.

said Mr. Perry did not want to be retrenched from the Public Works Department, but he was forced to resign, by being given a position below that which he held prior to Union. He was told that he had to take that or nothing, and he preferred to leave the Service.

The amendments were negatived.

moved to reduce the amount by £16,000, being on page 236 the item “Cape Town Museum, sheds for skeletons of whales,” £1,000; on page 237 the items “Mental Hospital,” £5,000; “Two villas for paying patients,” £2,000; on page 239 the items “Aberdeen Police Station,” £1,500; “Adelaide Police Station,” £500; “Aliwal North Police Station,” £2,000; on page 242 the items “Vryburg Post Office,” £2,000; “Pilgrim’s Rest Post Office, £2,000.

said he would like an explanation from the Minister as to the reason why the item of £1,000 for sheds for skeletons of whales at the South African Museum in Cape Town had been taken off the Estimates. He noticed that there was an item of £4,144 for a mammal hall at the Pietermaritzburg Museum, and £10,000 for the National Museum at Bloemfontein.

said that the amount of £1,000 was considered inadequate to provide the necessary accommodation. They did not see why they should spend a large amount on temporary buildings.

said he noticed that in the Estimates provision was made for the erection of four residences for magistrates. Two of these were in his own constituency—Kentani and Willowvale. He regretted, however, that no provision was made for the better housing of the Magistrate at Tsomo, whose accommodation in this respect was extremely unsatisfactory, and had been brought under the notice of Parliament for years past.

said that, while the Minister had struck out the item of £1,000 for whale sheds, he had left in the next item, which was £15,000 for an addition to the Government Printing Works at Pretoria. If the Minister perused the evidence before the Public Accounts Committee he would see that the Government had no intention of extending the Printing Works. The total amount down under this head was £20,000, of which it was proposed to vote £15,000 this year. They understood in the committee that, although the Government intended to maintain these works for the present for reasons of policy, which they stated, they had no intention whatever of extending them. It was obvious, if they expended £20,000 on new buildings, that meant a considerable amount spent on new plant. If it were carried out, the expenditure would probably be £70,000 to £100,000. They had no information whatever, and the only statement they had before them was that at present the works were not to be extended. He thought that, for the present at all events, the Minister might leave out this item of £15,000.

said that he was responsible for the Printing Works, and he might, therefore, reply to the hon. member for Port Elizabeth, Central. This extension of the building did not involve any extension of the Printing Works. It was not proposed to increase the capacity of the institution for printing, or to do any more printing than they were doing now, but the institution was very much handicapped because there was no storage for paper, etc., and it was necessary to hire buildings in other parts of Pretoria for this purpose. By putting on another storey it was possible to get sufficient accommodation so as to provide the space required for paper stores, etc.

said that this was surely an extravagant item. If they were going to spend £20,000, he would guarantee to have a very large printing establishment for that amount. (Hear, hear.) He knew, because he had had to do it.

said that, according to the Auditor-General’s report (page 374), there seemed to be reck-less expenditure of public money. He found that in repairing four houses occupied at present by Ministers in Pretoria, a sum of £3,697 19s. 1d. was spent. He found that £1,758 was expended in additional furnishing for these four houses. A simple calculation would show that these properties worked out at £80 a month or £960 a year, so that nearly six years” rent had been spent in furnishing and putting these places into repair. The Ministers ought to be well housed, but they were well paid and should find their own houses and furniture.

asked for an explanation regarding items at Grootfontein Agricultural College, namely: Connecting dairy with domestic supply; flooring two cattle sheds; and loose boxes, £2,000. There was another item also, of £650, for loose boxes for entire horses. These seemed to be huge sums, and he thought they were trying to keep pace with the class of Union buildings in Pretoria.

said the item of £650 for loose boxes for stallions at Cedara was a new one, and they must bear in mind that that amount did not include the architect’s salary, but was purely for the labour employed in erection.

urged that public offices and a gaol should be built in Secocoeniland.

referring to the reply of the Minister with regard to the expenditure in additional printing works at Pretoria, said there was no call for the expenditure at the present time. Such a sum was not needed for a store.

drew attention to the expenditure of £1,000 for a creamery and provision of plant at Middelburg, and said the amount was far greater than was necessary. He referred also to two sums of £1,000 for industrial schools for boys and girls, and pointed out that the Government had not yet got a site.

mentioned the condition of affairs at the Magistrates’ Courts in Cape Town, and said that work was carried on at tremendous inconvenience. With regard to the expenditure on printing works in Pretoria, the Minister’s reply seemed to be extremely unsatisfactory. Spending £20,000 on storage was evidence of the extravagant way in which Government printing was carried out. It was landing the country into unnecessary expenditure, and he would lose no opportunity of protesting against the Government printing being done in its present fashion. Much of it should be done by competitive tender. It was a matter of indifference where the printing was done so long as it was done at the cheapest rate for the country. (Hear, hear.) That seemed to be a policy the Government was determined not to carry out. The expenditure of £20,000 on the extension of the Government Printing Works at Pretoria meant that they were going to concentrate all the Government printing under one roof. There could be nothing else follow, for the expenditure would have to be justified. To put up £20,000 for storing accommodation was ridiculous on the face of it, and the committee would not be deceived by it. He protested against the business principles of the Department being done in such an extravagant way.

said that the Public Accounts Committee, with a view to securing the Government against overcharge or excessive cost in th9 Department, recommended that a substantial proportion of the work should be given out by public tender. (Hear, hear.) Ho would ask the Minister to reduce this estimate, having in view the recommendation of the Committee on Public Accounts. They should regard this Government Printing Works as in its experimental stage, and they should watch how it went along for the next year or two. That was why they should hesitate to spend this large amount of money upon these works.

said he found that a sum of something like £70,000 was being spent upon buildings for housing lunatics. That large sum seemed unnecessary, and what was the reason of its being put down. He noticed that the sum of £12,000 was put down for the housing of criminal lunatics on Robben Island. Were the number of lunatics increasing, or were they to be better housed in the future?

said he thought that they ought to have some explanation with regard to the extraordinary expenditure on Agricultural Colleges. The money he thought, ought to be spent on properly equipping the Colleges with machinery; that would be better than putting the money into bricks and mortar. The Minister must know that a great many of these schools and colleges were not properly equipped with machinery, and if the money were spent on practical results of this sort, it would be far better for the agricultural training of the students. The hon. member referred to the Ermelo Station, the Middelburg Creamery, the Piet Retief and Rustenburg Experimental Tobacco Stations, and the Cedara Agricultural School, where £650 was being spent for the construction of loose boxes for stallions. How many stallions did they propose to keep at Cedara? He felt very strongly upon this question, because he felt that this money might have been spent to far greater advantage.

in his reply, said the necessary buildings, not only for the people but also for animals and implements, were required. In the Transvaal they had 20 expensive stallions, 21 in the Free State, hut none in Natal. These animals had to be properly housed. Stallions had now also been sent to Natal, and unless these animals were well housed and looked after, heavy losses would be suffered, and then the Government would be blamed for that. All these buildings had been built on the advice of the technical men. Cedara was not a healthy place for horses, and good stables were necessary in order to avoid sickness. In regard to the question of creameries, he pointed out that the grant for the Middelburg and Standerton Creamery had originally been voted by the Transvaal Parliament, though the work could not be completed before the date of Union. The Standerton Creamery had been let, and a good offer had been received for the Middelburg Creamery, and the £1,000 set down was intended to complete the work in connection with these creameries. He urged the necessity of perfecting the creameries, so as to extend and develop the dairy industry. Did they want to expand this industry, or to continue to import butter from abroad?

said he did not think that the right hon. Minister thoroughly understood the point. The Middelburg Creamery cost them £9,500 and the Standerton £9,900, would the right hon. gentleman tell them what rent they were getting from Standerton? What he wanted to make clear to the committee was that these buildings could be carried out at very much less cost and the balance should be devoted to increasing the professional staff in these institutions and in providing machinery for the education of students. The other day the Minister of Education had said that Cedara was not intended for horses at all, owing to the outbreak of disease. How many horses were to be stabled? Could money not be saved, and £420 be spent on more useful things? They had got into a way of squandering money, and things which were absolutely necessary were going to suffer, and that was certainly not going to assist the development of the agricultural resources of the country. (Hear, hear.)

said that he was at a loss to know what the position was in regard to these stables. The Minister of Education the other day had said that horses had died at Cedara, and that the place was not suitable for them. He would suggest that the money would be far better spent on a part of the country where there was less horse sickness than at Cedara. He wanted to know how many stables would be provided.

said that although the matter of Magistrates’ Courts had been frequently before the House, he thought it was desirable again to draw attention to the matter. No less than £33,000 had been expended that year on the Estimates for building residences for magistrates in different parts of the country. If the Government had decided to build residences for all the Magistrates the policy might be said to be a right one; but there were places where the Courts were absolutely disgraceful, and there was one where the water did not only leak through, but ran through; the Court was musty and unwholesome; and certainly their first duty was to put the public Courts in a proper state of repair first. If the worst came to the worst, they could make the Magistrates an allowance in lieu of residence.

complained of the expensive material which was being used in the erection of, amongst others, a school building at Ventersburg station. The bricks were sent, he said, all the way from Vereeniging, which he contended was totally unnecessary, and only added to the expense, the bricks costing £6 per 1,000. Why could they not use local bricks?

said that they never seemed to get an end of that expenditure. In regard to the Middelburg Creamery the total cost had been £8,300, and now it was £9,800. Who had made the estimate in the first place? It was the same with regard to the Standerton Creamery; the estimate had been £9,900, and was now £11,500. These industries had been built up in Natal with their own money, and why should they expect the State to put up these other creameries? When they once started with that expenditure they never came to an end of it. There was the Oenological Institute of Paarl, which had been £1,100 last year, but had now jumped up to £3,000 for the “Institute.” The estimate for the Rustenburg tobacco station had also jumped up, and he had no doubt that there would be further demands next year. Then there was £2,000 for Potchefstroom and £5,000 for an addition to Selborne Hall. He thought it was a most disgraceful business, and they would never get to an end of that expenditure.

said that he did not want to be parochial, but he felt it to be his duty to express his disappointment that the Estimates made no provision for a post office at Mossel Bay—(ironical Opposition cheers)—and he hoped that provision would be made in the next Estimates for that building.

said that the only way to press these matters upon the House was to move certain reductions and divide the House upon it; if they were voted down they were voted down, but they could show the country that they were in earnest. He added that he understood that the Standerton Creamery had been hired out to the proprietors of the Mooi River Creamery. He did not know what rent they paid, but he had heard that it was less than they would have had to pay if they had had to pay the interest. He did not know. He moved a reduction in the amount of £19,000. There was £5,000 for an addition to Selborne Hall—it was not for the education of these young men, but for an addition to a hall. Why, they could build a church with £5,000. They had not got a bottom-less purse in that country, but the Ministry seemed to think they had.

Continuing, he said the only thing that would bring the House to its senses was a tax on land; then they might hope to see an end to the reckless expenditure going on. He would move that the amount on the Selborne Hall vote be reduced by £4,000. That would leave £1,000 for the additions. He next came to the item of £15,000, additions to the Government Printing Works. Evidence had been given before the Public Accounts Committee that this building was to be used for the storing of Blue-books and Government papers, so that the money was not going to be spent for the purpose of enlarging the place for machinery. That was what the manager had told the committee. Would anybody outside the walls of a lunatic asylum think of spending such a sum of money for a purpose like that? In all he moved to reduce the amount by £19,000, being the item “Standerton—Creamery and provision of plant,” £1,000, on page 235; £4,000 from the item “Potchefstroom Agricultural School—Additions to Selborne Hall,” £5,000, on page 235; and £14,000 from the item “Pretoria—Additions to Government Printing Works,” £15,000, on page 236.

said he would answer two of the queries raised by the last speaker, as those matters had come under his (the Minister’s) notice. At the Oenological Institute, the £900 expended last year was for putting the existing buildings in repair and making certain minor alterations; the £3,000 this year was for the construction of a laboratory and its equipment for conducting scientific investigations and instructing farmers in vine-growing. Regarding the Selborne Hall at the Potchefstroom Agricultural School: this place had been laid out on an original plan, which admitted of additions, and when the present £5,000 had been voted, that would complete the scheme and afford accommodation for all the students attending the school.

asked for information regarding the amount, £800, Schoongezicht Police Station. He said the name seemed somewhat familiar to him. (Laughter.) Had the land been purchased by the Minister of Lands at £10 per morgen, or had it been given for the purpose?

said it would be seen that the Transvaal Government had had the Middelburg and Standerton creameries built. He was not responsible if anything was wrong with the buildings; the technical men who had had the buildings put up were responsible. He would remind hon. members that the arrangement with the companies was that the Government should get 3 per cent. per year on the capital outlay. He thought this was a good principle, which would develop the dairy industry. It had been said that the creameries in Natal were not assisted in any way. That might be so. But at present the Standerton Creamery was sending milk to Natal, as far as 300 miles, and the Government had to give low railway rates. Then the butter which was made from that milk was sent back hundreds of miles to Standerton at low railway rates. That was not good business. But it was an incontrovertible fact that a Government without expenses could not exist. The member for Port Elizabeth said: “Tax the land.” Well, he (the Premier) hoped he would propose a resolution to that effect so that the public could see what he wanted. (A Voice: “He will watch it.”) But let his resolution be a just one and not simply put because money was spent to develop an industry. He maintained that it was essential to develop industries of this kind.

said the Prime Minister was entirely wrong in his interpretation of what the member for Port Elizabeth had said about a Land Tax. He had not said there ought to be a land tax in order to pay for such matters as they were discussing, but that if such a tax was imposed the land would not only be paying a fair share of the burden, but there would also be less disposition to spend money recklessly. What they objected to was that one pound more than what was necessary should be used for these buildings.

said he did not mind the country spending money on establishing creameries, because he believed the future of the country lay in that direction. (Cheers.) They only objected when they thought it was being badly spent. He would like to withdraw what he said about the Mooi River lease, because the Prime Minister had informed them that the company was paying interest on the purchase. They had only to look at the experience of Australia, which had spent enormous sums before making dairying a successful industry. But to-day they were exporting between four and five millions sterling per annum. He moved the £20,000 for extension of Government Printing Works at Pretoria be reduced to £10,000, as the extension was only required for the purpose of storing Blue-books.

said it was difficult to follow the last speaker. The hon. member at one time delivered a most eloquent speech condemning creameries, and now he said they must spend millions on creameries. The hon. member was an expert in this business, because he had spent £40,000 on creameries in the Cape. How much butter did they produce? He (Mr. Merriman) was anxious to support the hon. member, but he found it very difficult. (Laughter.)

said if they reduced the vote for the Standerton Creamery, they would not get any interest on the money already expended, because the Mooi River Creamery people said they would not take the building unless additional money were spent on it. If Government had not built creameries they would have been put up by private enterprise. Co-operative societies of farmers expected creameries from the Government for nothing. As to the Middelburg Creamery, even if £1,000 were spent on it it would still be on the hands of the Government. There were excellent creameries, yet Government put up others at the expense of the taxpayer. He hoped Government would give up building creameries in this way.

said the Mooi River Creamery had done a great deal for Natal.

referred to the vote for Robben Island of £14,000, and hoped that before the money was spent the Minister would satisfy himself that Robben Island was to be the leper settlement for the whole of the Union.

said the money on the Estimates was for a criminal lunatic asylum, but as a matter of fact, he was most doubtful, and even more than doubtful, whether Robben Island was the proper place to spend this money. In the meantime they were looking for a more suitable place on the mainland.

said he was sorry the right hon. member for Victoria West had left the House.

You want his assistance? (Laughter.)

The right hon. gentleman came into office in 1908 when there were several health creameries established in the Cape. What they all suffered from was a stepmother. The right hon. gentleman was the stepmother. (Laughter.)

asked for information with regard to the vote of £2,000 for Rustenburg tobacco farm.

replied that the £2,000 was intended for a building to house students going to Rustenburg to study tobacco and cotton farming. At present there was no accommodation for these people.

said he did not think the building of creameries was a good way of developing the creamery industry. His experience was that people did not take the same interest in the thing when they got help from the Government as they did when they put up their own buildings. At Harrismith there was a small co-operative creamery with a capital of £3,000, which turned out in good months 60,000 lb. of butter a month. Although the Mooi River Company had spent £40,000 at Harrismith, the co-operative creamery could still manage to keep its own end up, although it was an extremely hard struggle. The Minister of the Interior, two years ago, helped to resist the establishment of a monopoly. When they built at the expense of the country and then leased the building they were doing something in opposition to the farmer and not helping him. They were discouraging co-operative effort. It must be understood that these things could only be done by the efforts of the individual, and not by grants of public money.

asked the terms upon which Magistrates’ residences were being built; what was the arrangement between the Government and the Magistrates?

said that the policy of the Government was this: First they saw that the small towns where it was difficult to get suitable houses, were provided with these buildings. When the smaller places had been finished then the larger towns would be tackled. So far as terms were concerned, the Magistrate either paid 6 per cent, on the capital expenditure or 10 per cent. on his salary. As the hon. member knew, the Cape had been very backward in this respect. Six were being built this year, and it was hoped to increase the number year by year.

said that although an amount for magistrates’ dwellings appeared on the Estimates for 1911-12, nothing had been done towards erecting these buildings at places such as Boshof. Furthermore, education in the Free State was languishing, because boarding schools provided for in 1910-11 had not been built yet.

asked for a reply to the question which he had put.

made a reply which was inaudible in the Press Gallery.

said the reply reminded him of the story of the village that wanted a school, and got a gaol. Had the alterations made at Valkenberg been with the consent of the medical superintendent?

pleaded for new public offices at Prieska, urging that these buildings were in a disgraceful condition, and that they had been promised them a couple of years ago.

asked for an answer to a question concerning the Magistrate’s Court in Cape Town.

said that seeing that the High Court would go to new quarters soon, he was not going any further until Government decided what should be done with those buildings.

said he hoped the Minister would not think of placing the criminal Courts of the city in the principal thoroughfare and at the gates of Parliament House.

asked for information concerning the amount set down for some buildings at Louis Trichardt.

said he would like a reply to the question he had asked with regard to the Magistrate’s residence at Tsomo.

said he was told that it would cost £81,000 to complete the necessary programme in the Transkei. At present it was intended to go gradually to work. A start had been made this year in the buildings which were on the Estimates.

The reductions of £1,000 and £4,000 respectively, moved by Sir E. Walton, were withdrawn.

said that he would like some explanation from the Minister of Justice with reference to the new prisons which were being built and additions to prisons. He did not know whether this was a lamentable result of Union. (A laugh.) He also moved the deletion of the item, Potchefstroom Agricultural School, additions to Selborne Hall, £5,000.

said he noticed that about £9,000 was going to be spent at Louis Trichardt.

said that this vote was for gaols, Magistrate’s Court, etc. Louis Trichardt was a part of one of the biggest districts in the Union, the Zoutpansberg district. The people there were very insistent upon having a separate district. The Civil Service Commission had also recommended that it should be made a separate district, with headquarters in Louis Trichardt. It was a vast area. They had to provide public offices and a Magistrate’s Court, and the gaol was at present merely a lock-up. He also urged that the extensions which it was proposed to make in the gaols of Cape Town and Barberton were necessary.

said he hoped they would now come to a vote.

Oh, no.

said that, while the hon. member for Border was out of the House, the hon. member for Port Elizabeth moved the same reduction, asked the same questions, and he (the Minister) gave him a full explanation.

said that was just the point he had often found when addressing this House. He thought it would be an excellent thing if somebody would move the adjournment, if only so that those at the other end of the Chamber would raise their voices instead of whispering to hon. members opposite. The front benches had got a habit of leaning across the floor, and the rest of the House heard nothing. (Hear, hear.)

said that Louis Trichardt was a very large native area. It was misleading to say that there was an enormous expenditure for the sake of a few hundred people.

The amendment to delete £5,000 on additions to the Selborne Hall was negatived.

The amendment moved by the Minister of Commerce and Industries was agreed to.

said he would like to ask why this item of £1,000 for the Cape Town Museum, sheds for skeletons of whales, had been taken off, while the item of £10,000 for a Mammal Hall at Maritzburg Museum remained. It did seem a grave injustice, to say the least of it.

pointed out to the hon. member for Cape Town that there was an obligation before Union with regard to the Mammal Hall at Pietermaritzburg.

was about to put the amendment for the reduction regarding the expenditure on the extension of printing works when,

said they had not had a sufficient answer from the Government. It was spending £20,000 on useless buildings, and he would like to know who was going to get the advantage. A few workmen would get wages, but after that it was going to be useless extravagance. If there were any excuse he could understand it, but not one Minister had given a reasonable excuse for spending 2d. on the extension. He never heard of such foolishness as spending £20,000 on a store for Blue-books. They had got a majority and were going to force the House to spend the money. A more senseless piece of extravagance had never been before the House.

referred to a visit to Pretoria, and said there were miles and miles of basement in the public offices there; vaults into which they could almost put the Post Office in Cape Town, and there was accommodation for storing millions of Blue-books. They were told that these were for storing archives and other things, and now they were asked to spend this £20,000 for storing Blue-books.

said it was not merely a matter of additional space for storing Blue-books. He wondered if the hon. member had been to Pretoria and seen the miserable small building in which an enormous amount of printing was going on. It was impossible to continue to get through the work in that building. Additional space was absolutely necessary to continue to conduct the work that was being accomplished there at present.

said that was not the explanation that the hon. Minister had given a short time before; he had deliberately said it was required for storing Blue-books. The two statements did not tally. He had not criticised the Estimates, as he knew it was perfectly impossible to do so, as they would have to criticise every item.

put the amendment, and declared the “Noes” had it.

called for a division, which was taken with the following result:

said before the Chairman put the amendment of the Minister of Commerce, he would remind the committee that they had a statement from the Minister of the Interior. It was an open question whether they should not give up Robben Island as a lunatic asylum. Now, here they had three sums, of £12,000, £1,000, and £200, for buildings. It certainly seemed absurd to spend this money there if they intended giving it up. It was stated that this money might not be spent on Robben Island, but that, surely, was not the way to conduct business. He thought these amounts should be deleted. He moved to reduce the amount by £13,200, being the items, “Robben Island Leper Asylum—material and buildings,” £200, on page 236; “Robben Island Lunatic Asylum—Building for Criminal Lunatics and other dangerous patients.” £12,000; and “Single Rooms at Female Asylum,” £1,000, on page 237.

supported his hon. friend (Mr. Jagger) in his criticism of this matter. He had been given to understand that the Minister had been making inquiries, and it seemed absurd to spend more money if it were the ultimate intention of the Government to transfer the lepers to the mainland.

This is not for lepers; it is for criminal lunatics.

There was another reason why he supported his hon. friend. This vote came under the Department of Public Health. They must consider the Government on their comparative merits, and if they spent money in certain directions, he asked why it could not be spent in other directions. If £15,000 were spent on printing works, why could not something to be spent on research? He added that the building on Hospital Hill, Johannesburg, was not fit for the purpose; it was a tin shanty that had certainly not been worthy of the Transvaal Government, and was certainly not worthy of the Government of the Union. If the hon. Minister could find time, the sooner he devoted some attention to that matter the better, and he thought that it was high time that something should be done for the laboratory at Johannesburg. The Minister might reply that something was already being done by private effort, but something should be done which was worthy of the Union.

said that he hoped that the amount would not be reduced. It was not so long ago that he could remember an instance arising in the Cape Town courts of a criminal lunatic woman who was brought before the Magistrate. She could not be put in gaol, and could not be dealt with by the Magistrate, because there was no accommodation to deal with her, and the woman had to be placed on the streets. That was a most undesirable state of affairs, that criminal lunatics should be placed amongst ordinary lunatics, and some accommodation had to be provided.

said that the hon. member had not understood what the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger) had said. He was not against accommodation being provided for criminal lunatics, but his point was that if they were going to remove the lepers from Robben Island they would have more accommodation there for the criminal lunatics; and so he had asked the Minister whether or no he was going to withdraw the lepers from Robben Island.

said that the smaller amount asked for in regard to leper asylums was necessary for temporary purposes. With regard to criminal lunatic asylums, he doubted himself whether that money would be used on Robben Island. It would very likely be used on the mainland, and they were still looking for a proper place on the mainland for a station. There was nothing to prevent the money being spent on the mainland. It was absolutely necessary, and he did not need to go into the argument that it was necessary. They certainly did want accommodation for their criminal lunatics.

explained that he was not against spending the money, but it was not businesslike to state that one was going to spend £13,000 on one place, and intended to spend it on another. The fact was that they were asking to spend that £13,000 wherever they liked.

You ask the money for a specific purpose. Cannot the Auditor-General stop it? I think he can.

said the officer mentioned by his hon. friend the member for Denver, was working under impossible conditions. The officer was doing most valuable work, and he hoped that the Government would do something in the matter. If the work had been carried out before they would have known a great deal more about miners’ phthisis, and perhaps saved many lives.

pointed out that this was a specific vote for Robben Island, and as no member of the committee was able to move that the money be used for some other place, surely it was the strongest argument against the Minister of the Interior. If Robben Island was to be given up, surely it was not necessary to take a vote for that place. If this sort of thing was going on it would be resented by Parliament.

suggested that the vote should be deleted and brought up on the Supplementary Estimates. They were on the horns of a dilemma. They favoured a place for criminal lunatics, but opposed the policy of spending the money on Robben Island.

The amendment proposed by Mr. Jagger on page 236 was withdrawn.

The amendment proposed by Mr. Jagger on page 237 was put, and declared lost.

said that the items voted for Aberdeen, Adelaide, and Aliwal North were to be deleted, and the money devoted to the erection of police quarters at Woodstock. (Cheers.)

asked for information with regard to Industrial Schools for Boys and Girls, £2,000. Where were they situated?

replied that the boys’ school was to be built at George, and that of the girls at Paarl.

The remaining amendments moved by the Minister of Commerce and Industries were agreed to.

asked if it was not a fact that the wireless station at Slangkop was unsatisfactory? He was given to understand that since tests had been made, it was found that ships going round the coast found it difficult to communicate with the station. Before such a large sum was proposed to be spent, he thought it would be well to consider if a better site could not be found.

said that the two items pointed out showing amounts to be spent on industrial schools, without naming the locality, showed the amount of attention that was paid to the Estimates. He believed sites had not yet been procured for these schools. He wished further to draw attention to the Aberdeen Gaol extension vote, £6,750. He was not aware there had been any serious increase of crime to warrant the outlay.

asked if the schools in question did not come under the Provincial Council? Other technical schools had been handed over to that body, and he thought the same course should be adopted in the case under review. He would also like to know whether the item of £8,000 for connecting the public offices at Maritzburg with the sewerage system there, and £7,500 for connecting other Government offices in various parts of the country, were not charges which should be borne by the respective municipalities?

asked for some more detailed information of the vote of £50,000 in sums of less than £500.

said the item of £8,000 for sewerage works was a liability incurred before Union.

said the £8,000 was part of £11,800 for the same purpose

said the Minister’s statement with regard to the withdrawal of the vote of £1,000 for the erection of sheds at the S.A. Museum, in which to place the skeleton of a whale, was extremely indefinite and unsatisfactory. Evidently there was plenty of money for other museums outside Cape Town, for Pretoria was down for £6,000, Maritzburg £3,000, and Bloemfontein for £3,000 for furniture alone. As a protest against the way in which these things were managed, he would move the deletion of the following item: “Pretoria Government Library and Museum, terracing and laying out of grounds, £2,000.” The S.A. Museum was the national museum. (Hear, hear.)

referred to the item of £800 for quarters for Customs officer at Saldanha Bay. They never used to have a Customs officer at that place.

I know gentlemen opposite have a very poor opinion of us on these benches. (“Hear, hear,” and laughter.) Would any Government be so silly as to put up a building if there was no necessity for it? (Laughter.)

One never knows. (Laughter.)

said he could not say who the Customs officer at Saldanha Bay was, but the quarters were in a most dilapidated building.

The amendment of Mr. Jagger was negatived.

said he would like some reply from the Minister in regard to Slangkop Station.

said that the hon. member’s information in regard to Slangkop was quite wrong. It was true that Slangkop was not a proper place for a high-power station. It would be far better inland, probably Pretoria. (Laughter.)

said they wanted to see a wireless station at Pretoria. He was, however, prepared to back his information against that of the Minister in this matter. He was informed by people who had been helping the Government to make experiments at this station that in some respects it was not at all satisfactory and that the station did not do as good work as it should. He would like to know whether it was intended to have an intermediate station between Slangkop and Durban.

said that he noticed an item of £6,000 for Pretoria Museum and Government Library. He would like to know whether the Minister was prepared to accept the substitution of “Port Elizabeth” for “Pretoria.” (Laughter.)

said the hon. member could not move that now.

urged that better accommodation should be provided for the postal officials at East London.

said that this was not a matter that belonged to his Department. Perhaps his hon. friend in front (General Smuts) would be able to supply the information asked for by the hon. member (Col. Crewe).

said he was almost unwilling to say anything about the matter, but he hoped the amount would be sufficient for the purpose.

said he was not going to press the Minister, but he hoped he would see that reasonable accommodation was provided.

said that the Pretoria suburbs were badly in want of telegraph offices.

inquired about the amount of £50,000 for minor works.

said the hon. member might consider himself fortunate that the amount was so low. The original amount required was £90,000. The sum was required by the several departments for constructing minor works.

moved to report progress.

hoped that hon. members would agree to report progress, and that they would also assist in pushing the Estimates to-morrow.

said he would like to have the Chairman’s ruling. Did he intend taking the Railway Estimates after the Main Estimates, or did he intend to go on to the Supplementary Estimates immediately the Main Estimates were finished.

said after the Main Estimates were finished he intended taking the Supplementary Estimates, then the Railway Estimates, and the Railway Supplementary Estimates.

Progress was reported, and leave granted to sit again to-morrow.