House of Assembly: Vol1 - WEDNESDAY MARCH 1 1911
from G. R. van Wielligh, late Surveyor-General, South African Republic.
from May Fisher, widow of Joseph S. Fisher, inspector, Mines Department, Johannesburg.
from voters of Marico, for construction of railway, Zeerust to Buhrmansdrift.
from D. M. Lourens, widow of A. J. Lourens, policeman.
Perhaps the Hon. the Commissioner will tell us now if it his intention to send the railway estimates to the Public Accounts Committee, or appoint a special committee for the purpose?
I intend to move to-morrow.
moved the adjournment of the House on a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz.: (1) The great public danger of the growing discontent among the railway and harbour employees arising from the delay in instituting the promised Commission to inquire into their grievances; (2) the lack of direct and elected representation on the Regrading Commission; (3) the prohibition, by circular No. 7, of daily-paid men taking any part in politics; and (4) the failure of the administration to pay proper attention to the representations made by the men.
ruled that as the subject matter of the proposed motion was not of such urgent public importance as could not wait for a notice of motion in the ordinary way, he could not allow the motion.
Thank you.
The adjourned debate was resumed on the following motion by Sir A. Woolls-Sampson (Braamfontein): “That in the opinion of this House the time has arrived when the whole question of the future system of defence for the Union, including the affiliation of the Boy Scouts and the appointment of a Commandant-General, should be considered by the Government.”
said he thought that the House was indebted to the hon. member for having raised this very important subject—(hear, hear) —and though the form of the motion was, perhaps, open to some criticism, the mover, being a plain soldier like himself (General Smuts), did not trouble so much about form. There was no more important question than that of South African defence, and he thought that the thanks of the House were due to the hon. member for bringing this matter forward. He did feel that no more important question could have been brought forward at such a period. They had become a nation by the consummation of Union, and as such they were obliged to undertake certain obligations. The responsibilities were very great, the burdens which they had to carry as a nation were heavy, and he thought it was the duty of South Africa to consider very gravely the question which at present arose from the new status to which they had arrived. He might say that the Government had not had time to formulate any definite scheme on that, question—it was a matter which required a great deal of consultation, and various considerations had to be weighed. No definite policy would, therefore, now be expressed by him.
But it was, perhaps, possible, after the inquiries which had been made, and the attention he had given to the subject, to state in large outline, as a basis for discussion by the House, what seemed to him to be the main outlines of the scheme which might have to be adopted in the future. Now, in the first place, he agreed with the hon. member that that subject should be approached entirely as a question of defence. (Hear, hear.) He knew that there were a number of people in South Africa who were more ambitious than that, and wanted a scheme formulated which went beyond the limits of South African defence; but he thought that the first step should be to set their own house in order, and provide for contingencies which might arise in South Africa, and would form a very large instalment for the country—and the rest could be left over to time. He therefore, in what he was now going to say, was going to limit himself to South African defence. With them the defence question was most important, and more important he thought, than in any other part of the British Empire, because in South Africa they did not have a homogeneous society; and most of their troubles which they had encountered in the past had been of an internal character. Therefore, if they wanted to have a stable system, it was much more important to provide for a scheme of defence than anywhere else in the British Empire. He did not echo some of the words used by the hon. member (Sir Aubrey Woolls-Sampson), and he was not an alarmist on that matter, and did not think that they would have a great upheaval in future in South Africa. He, for one, was not alarmed at the prospect of that at the present time, and he thought it would be possible for them to preserve the peace in South Africa—(hear, hear)—but there was no doubt, as the old proverb said, the best way to preserve the peace was to prepare for war, because if they were prepared for war they were more likely to have peace than otherwise. Most of their wars in the last century in South Africa, he proceeded, had been due to colour and racial feeling, and, luckily for them, the differences which had existed between the white peoples of South Africa had been eliminated for ever—(hear, hear) —but there were difficulties which went much deeper, and these had to be faced and prepared for. If they had a scheme of defence, by which they insured themselves against these internal troubles which might arise in South Africa, they would have done a good day’s work. (Hear, hear.) There was no doubt that the importance of South Africa in the world was very great; and as long as there was a gold standard currency in the world, gold would be a very important consideration with all nations which wanted to develop a mercantile system; and South Africa, therefore, with its enormous mineral riches, would always attract nations which wanted the commerce of the world. They (South Africa) had a position on the great trade route of the world, and in the great struggle which might come—and which they would have to face—between the East and the West, the position of the southern part of the African continent would be one of the determining factors. All these points were of enormous importance to the people of South Africa, and they had to realise what their duties were in that matter of defence; and also, in time, to go and prepare for defence in the world.
The question at the present time presented great difficulties in South Africa, for although they had achieved political union, there was no doubt that every wise man who considered the question on its merits felt the great difficulties which surrounded it on every side and on various grounds. Notwithstanding Union, they had certain lines of cleavage in South Africa which were far-reaching; and when they got to defence, which went to the root of matters, they got at those lines of cleavage. One might be the wisest man in South Africa, and yet fail to devise a system which would apply equally to town and country. Not only were they economically different, but they had also to consider the question of race and language, which complicated the situation; and your system might work well in the country where it would fail in the towns, and vice versa; and, therefore, all these matters must be very carefully gone into. Dealing with the story which the hon. member had related, General Smuts said that if they had a system of national self-defence, they must take care that the self-respect of no portion of the people was hurt anywhere. (Hear, hear.) They must think out a scheme which would fit in with the various conditions of town and country: English and Dutch, and all the other conditions which existed. He did not mention these things to frighten the country, but to show what the inherent difficulties were which had to be faced—these peculiar troubles and lines of cleavage which existed in South Africa. He had been thinking of the matter and consulting with friends who had perhaps certainly a better right to judge than he had, as to what would be the best lines to go on in future. They had a small population; and essentially their country was not a rich one; and they must be careful that they did not evolve a scheme which would press unduly hard—either economically or financially— on people. They might produce some ambitious scheme which might look well on paper, but which in practice would depress the country. They did not want such a scheme, but one which would be of assistance to the country. (Hear, hear.) At the same time, although they did not want a scheme which would be more than that poor country or the small population could bear, they wanted something which would be real and efficient. It might be possible to construct a citizen army of great proportions, and yet the whole scheme might be illusory and not stand the test of the least trial. They must make up their minds not only to be economical, but also to be efficient. (Hear, hear.) If they were not going to have an efficient scheme, rather have nothing at all. (Hear, hear.) they must, therefore, have an efficient scheme, and one which was sound in its good foundation—and a scheme which could be developed, and grow with the growing development of South Africa. What could they do? It was impossible for south Africa to maintain an army; at the same time, it was clear—to his mind, at any irate that it would be impossible for the country to rely simply and solely on a citizen force men who came together for a small number of days, and went through their training and drill, and then departed for their homes again. He did not think that such a scheme would be sufficient for the needs of South Africa. Now, of course, at the present time they had always the British Army in South Africa at their back, and people naturally always thought, when they discussed that question: “Well, there are the regulars in the country, and we can always fall back on them.” But they must face the possibility—and it was more than a possibility that the British Army would leave the country within a certain number of years, and the result would be that these regulars would leave our shores; so that, unless they had some more continuous, more reliable system than at present, they might be left in a very bad position indeed; and it would be necessary to have some permanent force in the country. He thought they would have to be careful that they did not rely entirely upon citizen forces.
They must have in South Africa small striking forces. They had large parts of the country where a disturbance might take place. If they had to wait until they could mobilise a citizen force, scattered all over the country, the danger might be very much greater, and the fire might spread into other large areas. It was, therefore, necessary to have in various parts of South Africa, he thought, small striking forces, which could be mobilised on an emergency, which could be used almost on the spur of the moment, and which could be utilised in order to deal with any rising that may occur in the earliest stages. Then besides that, they must have a large part of their technical artillery service permanently trained-trained not merely as a citizen force, but on a more permanent and secure basis. How were they going to do this? It seemed to him that the system which had been developed here in the Cape Colony on this matter was the sounder, the cheaper, and the more economical. Here in the Cape Province, in the Cape Mounted Rifles they had a force which in ordinary times of peace did very largely police duty. (Hear, hear.) They did almost entirely police duty, but they were trained, they were in the permanent service of the country, and they were trained not merely as policemen, but they were also trained from a military point of view.
They had an artillery corps attached to them. He was informed that the artillery corps of the C.M.R. was one of the most efficient bodies of artillerists in South Africa. (Hear, hear.) When they had developed a system like that, a system which had stood the test of severe trial in South Africa, which had worked well both in stormy times and in times of peace, he thought they could not do better than copy it over the country generally. That was his own opinion of what they should do in order to have a permanent force in South Africa. They should have not merely the C.M.R., but a number of other corps arranged like the C.M.R. The mounted police in the rural areas of South Africa should be organised into corps on the C.M.R. basis. They might have such a corps in Natal. To that corps they might have attached an artillery corps. They might have one or two such corns in the Transvaal, they might have two such corps in the Cape Province, and a similar corps in the Orange Free State. This would mean a larger police force than they had to-day in South Africa, but he thought that, on the whole, it would be very economical, because they would escape the necessity of maintaining men simply for military purposes, men who in the long years of peace would lie idle, and would have nothing whatever to do except train for war. (Hear, hear.) They would avoid that, and he thought they would satisfy public opinion on this question. One of the difficulties one felt in regard to the C.M.R. was that there was no reserve force—that in time of war, when the men bad been called away on service, there was not a regular system by which others would take over their police duties—and he thought that a scheme would have to be thought out to arrange for a system ot reserve police force.
There was another question of vast importance to South Africa, and that was the question of coast defence. Now, coast defence was of very great importance in South Africa, and was going to be more and more important in future. This country had developed large coal resources, and in case of any trouble, when the Suez Canal was blocked, the fleets of the world almost would come round to this country and coal on our shores, land no doubt it would be most important for our purposes, and the purposes of the world generally, to have some harbours in South Africa that would be secure, that would be a place of refuge to the mercantile marine of the Empire, in case such a contingency were to arise. Now we had not got many such harbours, many such places that were defended, and defended efficiently. He thought that, on consideration, hon. members would see that it was only necessary to have two such places, one here in Table Bay.
False Bay was already defended very adequately, and Table Bay, which was not very well defended at present, ought to be better defended, and then they had Durban, which would probably become, in the contingency he was referring to, the most important harbour in the Southern Hemisphere. Durban, he thought, had to be defended as well as any port of that kind. Now, they had to arrange for the defence of these places. An arrangement had been made with the War Office and the Admiralty whereby the defences here of Table Bay would be strengthened. He had gone carefully through the whole scheme, and the result was, he thought, that a scheme would be carried out within the next twelve months in Table Bay. If the scheme were carried out, they were informed by the Colonial Defence Committee that Table Bay would be as well defended as any such place in the world, which was likely to stand the sort of attack that Cape Town would have to stand. That would be in the immediate future, within the next tweleve months. He hoped that within that period Table Bay would be defended on a basis which would be adequate for many years to come.
The case was entirely different with regard to Durban. Some years back, he believed, the Natal Government asked the then Governor, Sir Matthew Nathan, to go into that question and see what could be done for the defence of Durban Harbour, and Sir Matthew Nathan took the advice of another engineer like himself, and lodged a report. After Union, the Government went a step further, and they asked the Admiralty to procure another report on the defence of Durban Harbour, and, through the kind services of Lord Methuen, they had a report before them which they considered was very important and very far-reaching. After that had been tested, the Government would call upon the country to provide the money for the adequate defence of Durban Harbour also. He felt that if there were one place in South Africa that they had to hold to the uttermost in the future, it would be that most important part of the Union. They would also have to maintain a very energetic and vigilant force to man those defences.
In the past it had been customary at the Cape for the Imperial Government to supply a number of Regulars for the purpose—the Royal Garrison Artillery. These were supplemented by the Cape Garrison Artillery, who were Volunteers.
Partly paid.
said that they were, it was true, partly paid. They had formed a very efficient body. For this work they must have highly trained men. They must have men who would be, as it were, a standard for the Militia. He hoped in the future that they would be able to continue that system. He did not think they could devise anything better, It would be necessary for them to call upon the Imperial Government from time to time to supply them with a number of regular artillery to assist them in the defence of those places. He hoped, that in the future they would be able to take over the payment of such men supplied by the Imperial authorities. So far, the War-Office and the Admiralty had been very generous to do so, but he hoped the day was coming when they would be able to say to the Imperial Government: “We will take over all these coast defences; we shall still call upon you to help us with technical services, but we are going to pay for those services.” (Hear, hear.)
Now, he came to what he believed to be the crux of the situation, and that was the citizen forces. The question was on what basis these forces should be arranged, There were many members in the Houso who had had an intimate acquaintance with the working of the defences which existed in South Africa before. In the Transvaal and the Orange Free State they had systems which, when put to the test, did not prove equal to the occasion. If they had had a more efficient system in the old Republics, nobody knew what they would have dore. They bad the best fighting material in the world, but they were hampered by two insuperable difficulties when the war broke out. In the first place, they had not highly trained officers, and in the second place, the discipline of the men was wanting. They had the best men, but their officers were not highly trained men, and when he said so he did not wish to speak disparagingly of the brave men who had led the Boer armies. They all felt that, and it was common talk amongst them in the field, that these were the two weak spots. But for these two weak spots the history of South Africa might have been different to what it was to-day. Therefore, if they wanted an efficient system in South Africa, if they did not wish to see the breakers roll over them once more in the years to come, they should not merely rely upon the self-devotion of the people of South Africa, but do more to train their officers and obtain discipline and efficiency amongst the rank and file. Dealing with the second question first, namely, the question of discipline and efficiency, he said if was very difficult to know what to do. He had been advised on many sides to rely almost entirely on cadet training in the schools. Now, the trouble about cadet training was—he had nothing against the cadet training, and he thought it ought to be part of the system—that it could only be efficient in large centres of population where there were large schools, and where large numbers of children were grouped together. In the rural areas, where half the children of the country lived.—those who, to a large extent, would supply the fighting material of the future-— it was not possible to apply the cadet system or to rely on the cadet training for them as being efficient, because the schools were small and the number of children was small. It was really impossible to have the cadet training for these children, and therefore whatever might be the virtues of cadet training, they wanted something more, and he thought they ought to have it. He hoped the conscience of South Africa would stand it; he hoped the patriotism of South Africa would stand it in order that, not only in the schools, but on the farms and in the towns, the young men in their early years would devote a certain small portion of their time to training themselves in the defence of their country. His idea at the present was that they ought to divide up South Africa into areas with, of course, different systems for the towns and the country, and at the head of each area put a good, reliable instruction officer. That was the scheme which Lord Kitchener recommended for Australia, and he thought it was the best thing for South Africa Every year young men, say, between the ages of 18 and 25, would come together for one or two weeks. Of course, he did not mean all the young men in each district, because he did not want to make the scheme too large and too expensive. They should call on each district to provide a certain number of young men between those ages to come together, and if they did not they would have to ballot. They would toe put into camp, and trained to shoot and ride. They would learn to co-operate with each other and to obey their officers, and the latter would be able to see them work and help them to go through their training.
He did not think it would be too much to ask that in the rural areas the young men should give up one or two weeks per annum for such training. He thought it would not be a heavy tax on the country, and he thought it should be done. In Switzerland they went much further in efficient training, and be hoped they in South Africa would try to follow suit. He thought they had much better material here than in Switzerland, because of the habits of the people and because of the conditions existing in South Africa. He was told in books and reports he had read that the training of the young men in Switzerland was a national holiday time. The young men looked forward to the time when they went into camp in fairly large numbers, and were trained together to become efficient for the future service of their country. He was hopeful of the patriotism and fine soldierly feeling amongst the people of South Africa, and that the day would come when South African boys would look forward to the time to go into camp to learn the arts of war, to-co-operate, and to learn to obey their officers. He did not think that they would be making any great demand upon the young men of the country and he considered two weeks a year would be just what was wanted. He did not think much of isolated training, the sort of training that was called home training in the British Army—in drill halls. The pacing up and down, and the swinging of arms and legs, and so on. (Ministerial laughter.) All that was very useful as gymnastic exercises, but they did not train as soldiers until bodies of men came together in camp, and learned in peace time more or less the conditions which existed in war time. That was the only system which would bring about efficiency in military training. He said that under his scheme the young men in this country would only be trained for a small number of years, and would then pass into the reserve, and the result would be that every year they would be passing a number of young men between the ages of, say, 25 and 30, into the reserves, and when the time came they would come forward. Although they might only be training 20,000 men they would have 100,000 men well trained One of the weaknesses of the present Volunteer system was that it did not build up reserves. It was a costly system. As would be seen from the Estimates, it cost £484,000 a year, and the Volunteer forces were not 10,000 strong. He would not go into the financial question, but he would say that his trouble was with regard to the towns. In the country under the system he had described, the young men on the farms had their horses, and would use them when called upon. The upkeep of horses in towns was an expensive thing, and therefore it would be difficult in future to rely to any large extent upon mounted men, from the towns. He thought they would have to rely more upon the towns for the foot regiments, and also for the technical services which would be necessary. It would be necessary to have Volunteer artillery, engineer corps, signallers, and all these could come more easily from the towns than from the country, and when they made out a scheme in detail they would rely upon the towns for their foot regiments, artillery, militia, engineer corps, signallers, and the like. Of course the industrial conditions in the towns raised a great deal of difficulty, as they had to take a man from his business in order to train him for the service of his country. He did not know whether, after all, some modified form of volunteering would not be the most suitable for the towns. It might be, when they considered all the difficulties, that they would come to the conclusion that some more stringent system of volunteering would have to be adopted in the towns. They must rely on the whole of the population to help them. (Hear, hear.) They could train the young men in the Volunteers, and after some years’ service pass them into the reserve, where they would obtain some advantages.
Then, he wished to see every man who had done any fighting enrolled in the veterans’ reserve—it might be a rifle club or some other reserve He desired everyone to have an opportunity of joining a rifle club, and if that, opportunity were availed of the result would be that practically the population would be armed. Then inducements should be given to men to remain in the veterans’ corps. He thought the result would be that we should be much better armed, and an inducement whom be given to those old veterans—of whom he was one—(cheers)—to serve their country. He said to all those weather-beaten heroes that they need not be afraid, for that all they would be called upon to do would be to go to the butts and fire off a certain number of rounds. There was, proceeded General Smuts, a great division of opinion in the country on the subject of cadets. Some people looked only to the cadets for defence purposes, while to others their name was anathema. He thought both these views were exaggerated and substantially wrong. For towns and large schools the cadet system was a cheap one, and under it boys developed their bodies as well as their minds. (Cheers.) When a boy had gone through his cadet training he should be exempted for some years of his later service when he joined the citizen forces.
There remained the very difficult question of the training of officers, which was a weakness they discovered in days gone by. Under the system he had described there would be two kinds of officers, and the training for the two classes would have to be different. The citizen officers would get their training at the usual drills and in camp, but the permanent officers would be Government servants, and would be instructional officers, and for that service they required a body of trained South African men. For that sort of work we must not bring men from. England—(hear, hear) for if we did we would break down the system at the start. We must train our boys. For the training of these permanent officers he thought it would be necessary to have a Military College in South Africa. (Hear, hear.) In Canada there was such a College at Kingston, where men were trained not only to be officers, but also to be engineers. The question would arise whether the College would be purely a military one or whether it would be combined with some other form of training. It had been suggested that South Africa should combine its Military with its Agricultural College. We would have a College where our expert farmers would be trained in the future, and it had been suggested that these experts should be given a military training at the same time. Some of the students would become officers and some farmers, and all ultimately would be at the beck and call of the country. It was a matter for the country to think over. As soon as the scheme was sanctioned, we should commence with a certain class and give them a training which would not be of such an ambitious character as that given at a College.
The difficulty, continued General Smuts, would be to start the scheme. They might devise a very efficient scheme which would work very well once it was in full motion, but the problem was to set the machine in motion. He thought it would be necessary from the very beginning to have men associated with the population, men whom the people trusted, knew, and were of themselves. If they had British officers for rural districts in the Transvaal or the Free State they were not going to make a success of the matter. (Cheers.) It was necessary to start with men whom the people knew already. In the town areas he thought there were quite sufficient officers in the Volunteer and Militia Forces to start the scheme, but in the rural areas he thought they should take for officers men whom the people respected and men who had made names for themselves, and there were, he thought, too many of these. (Cheers.) They had learned the dark side of war well enough, but we wanted to have as high a standard as possible. It would be necessary for Government to choose the instructional officers who were going to command the various districts, and put them through a course of training. It would be a great mistake to, bring men from other parts of the world for that purpose. In a few years however, that difficulty could be overcome, and our forces could be commanded by men who were cadets from the Military College.
Continuing, he said that these suggestions could be brought before, and discussed by; the House. It had been suggested that a Commission should deal with this question. He did not believe in Commissions. He thought that the best system of distilling wisdom from the human mind was to hire one man instead of five or six. In that country to-day they had a Commander-in-Chief who was almost a South African himself—he might almost be called a Boer. He had been in the country, he believed, for 25 years, and knew the English system, and sympathised with South African habits. Then in that House they had a large number whose advice and assistance would be most helpful and valuable. And if the collective opinions and suggestions were brought before the country, a scheme of one man, then, he thought, that would be the best way of arriving at the soundest conclusion. His hon. friend had suggested as an alternative the appointment of a Commandant-General, who should start at once and work out some scheme. Well, he did not know that that would be the best course to pursue. Else where this system had not been found to work very successfully, and the hon. member instanced the cases of Australia, Canada, and Great Britain. They might pick out what they thought was the right man, and then find out after that he was the wrong man. He did not think that they should start away by making a high appointment Hike that. Rather let them hammer out the details themselves; let them work out the early stages of the scheme in the way he had suggested before they decided upon any such high appointment He was very much afraid that any such high-appointment might prejudice the working out of the scheme itself. There would be people who would call it a job. That being so he thought they must try to wriggle out of their difficulties as best they could (Cheers.)
said he had risen to make a few remarks regarding the military system as he had found it in Natal. In the first place, he congratulated the Minister on his speech, and said it was gratifying to know that he had been pondering over this subject, and had studied it so very thoroughly. He was somewhat disappointed to find that the Minister was not so sympathetic towards the cadets. He (the speaker) could assure him that in Natal the keenest Volunteers at the time of the late rebellion were the cadets. Schoolmasters and parents alike were unanimous in telling them that the cadets had improved wonderfully under the system, and that it made for a vigorous manhood. If the Government only continued the system, he felt that they would do something that would be of lasting benefit to the country. He then went on to deal with the suggestion of the Minister that the police should be used as a striking force for military purposes. He did not think that the Minister ever dreamt of denuding Cape Town or Johannesburg of police at any time, but in Natal, during the rebellion, it was found impossible to move men from the country districts, even more so than from the towns. Therefore, it was necessary for them to rely mostly on the Volunteers. They still heard it said that one Volunteer was better than ten pressed men. That was not the experience they had had in Natal, where during the rebellion, though they had men to the number of 2,500 or 3,000, they only got 1,000 men to volunteer, despite the fact that the Government offered 5s. a day, horses, and bridles. They had to rely on Volunteers, who came from the Transvaal, the Cape, and the Orange Free State. If they had had to rely entirely on their Volunteer force at that time, there was no saying what might have happened. He agreed that they should encourage Volunteering in the towns, but the system would have to be backed by something like compulsion. He went on to say that in Natal they found that the firms that made the most out of the public out of rebellion contracts were those firms who had discouraged volunteering. But the main point, and the point he wished to press home, was the danger of looking upon the police as a striking force for military purposes. It might be desirable to have a portion of the police allotted for such a purpose, but they could not rely upon the withdrawal of the police from the country or the towns. If this country was to be defended, it should be defended by the men who lived in it. He was sure that the House would support the Government if it brought forward a well-thoughtout scheme of defence, for the time would assuredly come when they would have to defend themselves against enemies from the outside. This was the only part of the Empire at the present time where the system of defence was in a disorganised state; they had different laws, different regulations, and no co-ordination. He pointed out the enormous difficulties that would have to be faced if the Volunteers of the Union were suddenly called upon to act collectively, and the sooner they had a uniform system in operation, the better it would be for the country. He was glad that the Government had considered the question of coast defences; but he hoped it would not be long before there was a complete system of defence on land brought before the House. They should remember that they were surrounded by a large semi-barbarous population which might easily become unfriendly and give considerable trouble.
said that it was very difficult, at a moment’s notice, to criticise with any detail the admirable speech of the Minister of the Interior. He thought that throughout South Africa there was a general desire for a statement of policy from the Government on this most important subject. He said that the very able speech—an oratorical effort of considerable value—of the hon. member who brought forward the motion, was marred only by one reference to a danger which he (the speaker) did not believe existed. It did not exist, because civilisation and enlightenment and fair play had done a great deal to show the native races that they were not the enemies of the whites in this country. If ever a native rising occurred in South Africa, united as it was now, South Africa would surely be able to meet it. As to what the hon. member for Dundee (Mr. Watt) had said—who sat on that side, and it would be more appropriate if he sat on the other side of the House, when they would know exactly where they were—with reference to Volunteers in Natal not coming forward that had astonished him, for in 1899-1901, during the war. Natal had home its fairshare, and sent its fair proportion of Volunteers in the hour of need. Their experience in the Cape had not been that employers put difficulties in the way of their employees joining the Volunteers; he knew of many firms which had made many material sacrifices to allow of their men to go forward to the war.
I did not say all employers; I only said some.
proceeding to deal with General Smuts’s speech, thought that if he laid down a cut-and-dried scheme upon which he invited criticism, it would not be the best way. A Select Committee would be better than that. He regretted that the Minister had not consulted men who were thoroughly acquainted with military matters more than he had done. He hoped that the Minister would think very carefully of the methods he proposed to adopt. The scheme be had outlined was a fairly sound one, on the whole, although he (Colonel Crewe) differed as regarded details. As to his first point, he was glad to see that the Minister had adopted Cane lines, because these had proved to be the best, and he did not think that they could find a better corps than the one which the Cape was, and had been so proud of for so many years—the C.M.R. In the C.M.P. they had a second and most useful and valuable body of men. He regretted the action taken by the Cape Government in diminishing the strength of that force. The Minister’s second point was coast defence, and he was glad that he (General Smuts) had no idea in his head of having one of these small navies of their own, which were entirely inefficient, useless, and ridiculous. With regard to land defence, he believed the Minister was right again, and he hoped that he would have the money thoroughly to fortify Cape Town and Durban, and not putting up pop-guns at other places. It was un fortunate that in 1904 crippled means had prevented them from carrying out what they intended to do with regard to the defence of Cape Town. In the filtered conditions in which they now found themselves it ought to be one of the first duties which should be undertaken by the Minister. With regard to the defences of Simon’s Town, that had always been, and would always be, an Imperial matter. As to the artillery, he agreed with the Minister that the only way in which they could have a permanent garrison force was to obtain it from the Imperial Government, because the duties were so thoroughly technical, and have it supported by the local force—the Cape Garrison Artillery. Dealing with the citizen forces, Colonel Crewe said that he must confess he had more points of difference with the Minister than points of agreement. He believed in “catching them young,” if they were to have a good citizen force; and in that connection he spoke in favour of the cadet corps and the scout movement. As to the proposal to divide the country into a number of areas, with a commandant in command of each, and: to give the men not more than a couple of weeks’ training in a year, he did not think that that would lead to a very efficient force. They wanted the most complete training, and they would not get it by a system which was only half a system. It was not the system which was carried on in Australia. He would suggest that the Minister should first adopt the voluntary system, and if that failed, then the ballot system should be adopted to fill up the ranks. As to the Volunteer system, not only had it proved satisfactory in the towns, but also in the country districts, and if they could not get the number of men required they would have to get the ballot system. Town and country must pull absolutely together in this matter of defence, and, as for as possible under the same rules and conditions. The Volunteer had hon. scant courtesy on the part of the hon. gentleman. He did not appear to think much of the mounted Volunteers. One of the finest bodies of mounted Volunteers was to be found in his (General Smuts’s) own district —the Imperial Light Horse. In the town he (Colonel Crawe) came from, there was another admirable force of mounted Volunteers—the Cape Light Horse. He hoped opportunities would be given right throughout the country for all to take part in the defence of the country, without saying that this was an urban area and that was a rural area. He thought the proposed veteran reserve force would be an admirable force. The hon. gentleman could bring that into being at a stroke of the pen. In regard to the appointment of Commandant-General, he did not think the Minister would be wise if he proceeded to appoint a Commandant-General now. (Hear, hear.) He thought that was an appointment which would require very grave and very careful consideration; but he wanted to add this— that if there were any question between the appointment of a man who was in this country, and who had served for a number of years, and an officer from the other country, he thought that every consideration should be given to the local man. (Hear hear.) He agreed that their mistake always in the past had been to go outside this country in order to get officers to command their forces. But what else could they do? They had no means of training themselves. He considered that they had been well served by those officers from the Imperial service; but be thought the Imperial service, and they themselves, should feel that the time had come when they should, as for as possible, have nothing but their own officers, trained in this country. (Hear, hear.) He thought, everything being equal, the post of Commandant-General should be given to one who had rendered eminent services in this country. He was sure the country and the House would think it wise to defer this appointment until they had gone more fully into the details of the scheme. He would like to add that, in his view, the Minister would be much wiser if by some means or other, the selection of which he (Colonel Crewe) would rather leave to the hon. gentleman, he could obtain the advice not only of both parties in the House but, through both parties in the House, of the people in the country. He would urge the Minister to take the House more completely into his confidence as to the methods he proposed to adopt when he came to consider a scheme which was of such immense importance to South Africa. (Cheers.)
said he thought that, in view of the very important statement which had just been placed before the House by the Minister, it was very desirable that the debate should be adjourned. He accordingly moved the adjournment of the debate.
seconded the motion.
Agreed to.
The debate was adjourned until Wednesday next.
IN COMMITTEE
On clause 2,
moved that the clause stand over.
Agreed to.
On the schedule,
moved an amendment providing for the insertion of details as to the financial arrangements, the effect being that the loan and interest were to be secured by mortgage bond in favour of the Government on the property of the College Council for 43 years from January 1, 1911, and that repayment of the loan was to be on a sinking-fund basis for a period of 40 years, reckoned from January 1, 1914. He explained that he did not object to the Bill from an educational point of view, but the financial arrangements in the schedule required to be amplified.
said he would accept the amendment.
asked if the alteration was being made with the consent of all parties?
replied in the affirmative, remarking that the object of the alteration was to bring out clearly what was intended.
The amendments were agreed to, as was also clause 2, and the Bill as amended was reported.
Consideration of the amendments was set down for Wednesday, March 15.
COMMITTEE’S AMENDMENTS
On clause 10, dealing with the colour bar,
moved a new amendment: To add the following proviso: “Provided, however, that it shall be competent for the Synod of the said United Church at any time by resolution duly taken to alter or annul the provisions of this section.” The United Church (said the mover) should retain to itself the right to alter the clause if it thought fit. He appealed to the House to give the Church that power. He did not move in that matter as the enemy of the Church. In fact, an enemy of the Church would desire that the clause should remain unaltered. The argument had been brought, forward that the Dutch Reformed Church was following the political example set in the Act of Union. That was not so, for the Act of Union enabled Parliament to extend the franchise to coloured people north of the Orange River. He had a genuine affection for the Dutch Reformed Church, but the very worst step the Church could have taken in its own interests was the one to which he objected. He did not oppose on behalf of the coloured people, but on behalf of the Dutch Reformed Church itself. (Hear, hear.)
who seconded, said he recognised that the attempt to secure the alteration would be futile. To seek to associate the House with a piece of arrogance on the part of those responsible for the Bill was a challenge to every liberal-minded man. Parliament was asked to pass a stigma which it ought not to pass, and should not pass without entering its solemn dissent to anything of that kind. That was the last opportunity Parliament would have of providing a last place of penitence for those ecclesiastical gentlemen who had asked Parliament to pass that disgraceful Bill. However, he would not allow the measure to go through without entering his strongest protest. Having been forewarned in the Act of Union, the House would certainly be committing a, much greater mistake in passing a clause of that kind.
The amendment was negatived.
called for a division, which was taken with the following result:
Ayes—18.
Berry, William Bisset.
Brown, Daniel Maclaren.
Crewe, Charles Preston.
Fawcus, Alfred.
Fitzpatrick, James Percy,
Griffin, Wiliam Henry.
Joubert, Jozua Adriaan.
MacNeillie, James Campbell.
Orr, Thomas.
Quinn, John William.
Rockey, Willie.
Schreiner, Theophilus Lyndall.
Searle, James.
Smartt, Thomas William.
Whitaker, George.
Wiltshire, Henry.
J. Hewat and H. A. Wyndham, tellers.
Noes—49.
Alberts, Johannes Joachim.
Aucamp, Hendrik Lodewyk.
Bosman, Hendrik Johannes.
Botha, Christian Lourens.
Botha, Louis.
Brain, Thomas Phillip.
Cronje, Frederik Reinhardt.
De Waal, Hendrik.
Du Toit, Gert Johan Wilhelm.
Geldenhuys, Lourens.
Grobler, Evert Nicolaas.
Grobler, Pieter Gert Wessel.
Haggar, Charles Henry.
Hull, Henry Charles.
Joubert, Christiaan Johannes Jacobus.
Keyter, Jan Gerhard.
Kuhn, Pieter Gysbert.
Langerman, Jan Willem Stuckeris.
Lemmer, Lodewyk Arnoldus Slabbert.
Louw, George Albartyn.
Maasdorp, Gysbert Henry.
Malan, Francois Stephanus.
Marais, Johannes Henoch.
Maydon, John George.
Meyer, Izaak Johannes.
Myburgh, Marthinus Wilhelmus.
Neethling, Andrew Murray.
Oosthuisen, Ockert Almero.
Rademeyer, Jacobus Michael.
Schoeman, Johannes Hendrik.
Serfontein, Daniel Johannes.
Smuts, Jan Christiaan.
Smuts, Tobias.
Steyl, Johannes Petrus Gerhardus.
Steytler, George Louis.
Stockenstrom, Andries.
Theron, Hendrick Schalk.
Theron, Petrus Jacobus George.
Van der Metrwe, Johannes Adolph Philippus.
Van Eeden, Jacobus Willem.
Van Heerden, Hercules Christian.
Van Niekerk, Christian Andries.
Venter, Jan Abraham.
Vermaas, Hendrik Cornelius Wilhelmus.
Vosloo, Johannes Arnoldus.
Watermeyer, Egidius Benedictus.
Wilcocks, Carl Theodorus Muller.
C. Joel Krige and A. L. de Jager, tellers.
The amendment was, therefore, negatived.
The Bill was read a third time.
SECOND READING
moved the second reading of the Bill. He said that, although it was a very short measure, it was one of considerable importance, and he hoped that it would commend itself to the House. Perhaps hon. members would be better able to understand the position if he repeated to them the sort of public moneys that came under the control of the Government of the Union. It would be seen from the title that the Bill provided for the custody and management of certain public moneys and the appointment of commissioners. Public moneys might be divided into two classes. First of all, there was public revenue, from taxation, from loans, raised under the authority of Parliament, and moneys which accrued to the Government from services rendered by the Government. That class was not dealt with by the Bill. The other class of public money consisted mainly of trust funds, money deposited with the Government either by the public through the Savings Bank Department, or money in the hands of the Master, and also securities deposited with the Government. It was this trust money which it was proposed to deal with in the Bill. Continuing, the hon. member dealt with the memorandum prepared by the Finance Department, dated January 31, saying that therein there were some important and interesting paragraphs referring to trust and deposit moneys with which the Bill was concerned. On May 30 last the total was 141/2 millions, and the old way of dealing with this money was most unsatisfactory. He thought that the sooner they dealt with this trust money in some recognised and business way. And placed it in the hands of a Board to be invested in gilt-edged securities, the better it would be for the country. The Bill provided for a Board of Commissioners, and to this Board would be handed all the trust funds and securities in the hands of the Government at present. They wished to concentrate the money, and the Bill provided how the money should be invested. There was also the temptation of a Government using this money, which did not strictly belong to the State, and if the Bill was passed that temptation would be removed once and for all. He hoped that the second reading would be taken without debate in order that the Bill might be referred to the Public Accounts Committee
The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a second time.
moved that the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts.
seconded.
Agreed to.
SECOND READING
moved the second reading of the Crown Land Disposal (Execution of Deeds) Bill. The right hon. gentleman said that it had been the custom for certain deeds to have to be signed by the Governors of the different colonies which would now have to be done by the Governor-General of the Union. Although by that Bill it was not proposed to lessen the power held by the Governor-General, the number of formalities which were necessary would be decreased; and it would not be necessary for His Excellency to sign hundreds of thousands of deeds, which would become a purely formal work on the part of the Governor-General. These deeds could not be signed unless the proper authority had been obtained from the Governor-General, however. The prerogative of the Crown would not be interfered with at all; and what they allowed under the Bill was that the work could be done by power of attorney, as it were, which had now to be done personally.
The motion was agreed to and the Bill was read a second time.
The committee stage was set down for to-morrow (Thursday).
IN COMMITTEE
at once moved to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Agreed to.
stood up to speak, and said “Mr. Chairman,” but the Chairman had already left the chair.
Progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again to-morrow (Thursday).
IN COMMITTEE
In clause 2,
moved that in line 29 and line 31 the words “or premises” be inserted after “land.” He also moved certain amendments in the Dutch version, to make it correspond with the English version.
Agreed to.
On clause 3,
asked the Minister to state the kind of nurseries to be exempted under the regulations.
said the definition clause clearly indicated that.
In clause 8,
moved that the words “Mossel Bay” be deleted.
Agreed to.
said that plants were sometimes carried by post, which had certain diseases; and if plants were allowed to come through by post there was a great danger to the country. He thought that the words “otherwise than by post” should be deleted.
said that the pest did not come within a recognised port of the country. The pest would not come within this clause. There were already arrangements for inspection of articles sent by post.
said that if they left out the words “otherwise than by post” they would neutralise the value of the clause. He suggested that the clause should stand over.
agreed to this course, and the clause was ordered to stand over.
said that no fruit should be allowed to be imported except under rigorous inspection. † The MINISTER OF EDUCATION agreed, and said that permits would be required.
On clause 9,
moved to omit sub-sections (d) and (e).
did not agree with the omission of the sections.
The amendment was agreed to, and the clause as amended, was passed.
On clause 10, inspection of plants on introduction,
suggested that a certificate should be obtained not from the person who received plants, but from the person who sent them from Europe. If his suggestion were adopted, the consignor would have to issue a certificate that the plants he had sent were healthy and free from pests. Such a provision would, he considered, be an extra guarantee.
The clause was agreed: to without amendment.
In clause 11,
moved to omit “of a specially harmful character” in lines 36 and 37.
Agreed to.
On clause 14, power of Governor-General to extend the application of certain provisions of Act,
said the clause should authorise the Government to prohibit fruit traffic between different places in the Union.
pointed out that the definition of “plant” included fruit.
said he was satisfied.
moved the following new paragraph (d):
“ Prohibit or restrict the introduction into the Union of any plant from any specific country or place,” and to insert “supervised” after “prohibited.”
Agreed to.
On clause 15, power of Minister,
moved in line 62 after “premises,” to insert “(other than a nursery) ”; and after “disease” in line 64 to insert the following: “and if any such officer suspect or discover upon any such premises the existence of any insect pest, or plant disease, he may by notice, verbal or otherwise, to the occupier thereof declare the whole or any part of such premises to be quarantined for a definite or indefinite period. The provisions of sub-sections (3) and (4) of section four and sub-sections (1) and (2) of section five shall mutatis mutandis apply to any area quarantined under this section ”; in line 66, after “any,” to insert “such ”; and in the same line to omit “which is particularly harmful.”
thought too great powers were given to the Government. The Minister should have a prima facie case in writing before doing what the amendment empowered him to do. He proposed, as an amendment, that written information, showing that there was a prima facie case should first be sent to the Minister.
said the Natal law was even more stringent.
said he viewed the clause with the greatest suspicion. (Hear, hear.) It would operate as a means of shutting up the country into water-tight compartments, and would prevent the passing of fruit from one part of South Africa to another, or from one portion of a Province to another. In fact, a man could practically be ruined. He moved the addition of a proviso to the effect that nothing in the clause should act as a bar in any action for damages instituted by the owner of such land or premises.
did not think Mr. Merriman’s amendment was necessary, as compensation was provided for in another sub-section?.
said Mr. Merriman’s amendment would not do what the hon. member wanted.
I am not a lawyer. (Laughter.)
pointed out that cattle could be quarantined at the present time. Surely the right was not too much for Government to ask, more especially as compensation would be given.
That alters the case. It is simply an arbitrary way of protecting one district against another,
trusted the right hon. member for Victoria West would not press his amendment because it could only lead to discontent The Transvaal had always adopted rigorous measures against agricultural and fruit pests. He had recently suspended the restrictions, because he did: not wish to strangle inter-provincial trade, but people in the Transvaal were holding meetings and signing petitions in favour of the re-enactment of the regulations. An agitation had likewise been started in Natal. The Bill merely consolidated the different provincial regulations, and the clause under discussion was for the purpose of enabling an inspector to inspect plants and fruit—not to dig out trees.
moved to delete the whole of the clause. He said he had had experience of Government inspection, and all he could say was that he trusted Government would let his farm alone in the future.
supported the clause as printed. He had had his orchard inspected by a Government official who had given him good advice against the disease in his trees.
said the “plasmopara viticola” case at Graaff-Reinet should serve as a warning. They should be careful how they placed too much power into the hands of the Government. In spite of a beautiful harvest, Graaff-Reinet had been quarantined, and for a period of three years they were allowed to send their grapes to the Eastern Province only. Government even wanted to destroy the vineyards, but fortunately that intention was not given effect to Restrictions only had the effect of destroying trade. He could understand the prohibition against sending Graaff-Reinet grapes to the Western Province, because there they had an established viticultural industry, but why were they prevented from exporting to the North where there were no vineyards of any consequence?
supported the right hon. member for Victoria West’s amendment. If fruit trees and fruit were destroyed in order to protect third parties against the spread of a disease, compensation should be paid.
supported the clause as printed. It was only right that the Minister should be authorised to appoint inspectors to inspect plants and lay bare the roots. The discovery of tree and plant diseases by Government was a boon.
said the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet had spoken as it that constituency was the only one that had been affected by the restrictions. The hon. member had not the slightest objection to the most radical measures against the importation of infected plants, etc. Why, then should they neglect to protect their healthy orchards against diseases within the Union? It was often necessary, for the protection of the whole, to hurt a part. The inspectors would not be appointed for the sake of appointing them. They were useful officials, especially in connection with viticulture.
Business was suspended at 6 p.m.
Business was resumed at 8 p.m.
speaking in favour of the clause and the amendment moved by Mr. Malan, said that what they wanted to do was to build up a great industry in South Africa, and that they could only do if they saw that a good class of fruit was placed on the market. As to the question of the development of the trade in the European market, they must be very careful, otherwise they might lose that market, if a bad quality of fruit were sent. All he wanted to see was that the restrictions should be made uniform, so that the fruit growers might produce a good class of fruit. The quarantining of a fruit farm where a pest had broken out amongst the fruit was in the interest of the whole country. Still, the Government would see to it that no unnecessary hardships were inflicted.
said that his right hon. friend did not see that their fruit had been thrown out from the markets in a country where the same things were rampant, and for which their fruit was shut out. The Minister of Education had introduced an amendment by which a whole place would be quarantined if disease broke out amongst certain fruit; and one would, for example, be prevented from selling one’s peaches on the market if one’s apples were attacked. (Laughter.) The Tight, hon. member spoke of the large amounts which fruit farmers spent on insecticides, and said that the Government would penalise them by sending these inspectors along. A fruit farmer might lose a couple of thousand pounds. He congratulated his hon. friend on what he had done on behalf of the fruit farmers, but thought he was going too for with that amendment. He tendered his thanks to his right hon. friend for relaxing the restrictions, and having the administration carried out in a sensible and reasonable way. He did not complain of that, but what he did was to caution the Government from passing an Act by which too much power was put into the hands or officials.
said that the Government did not want to penalise anybody, but its desire was to keep the country free of fruit pests. They were building up a big industry in South Africa, and he hoped nothing would be done to ruin it, which might be the case if it became known that a poor class of fruit was being exported. They must see that only the best class of fruit went to the European market He alluded to seeing a number of boxes of South African oranges at Southampton, many of the fruit being diseased. The codlin moth was unknown in the Transvaal, except in Middelburg and round. Johannesburg. Middelburg was not allowed to send its fruit to market.
said that the oranges were not diseased at all; but there had been a want of care in the picking. When the hon. member talked about examining here, what did it mean? It meant that they were going to ruin the farmers by examining. The best check upon that was the market. He must not suppose that they damaged the market at all. People in England were not such fools as to say that because it came from the Cape, and So-and-so sent bad fruit, they would not buy Cape fruit again. The bad man would soon get squeezed out, better than by all the experts in the world.
said that he could not understand the position of the hon. member for Victoria West He said that if these regulations were brought into force, perhaps some of the first-class farmers would be subjected to a loss of several thousands of pounds. The answer to that was: that if they did not have such a regulation, great loss would be inflicted upon many unfortunate farmers. The object of this Bill was to sweep away the individual legislation of the various Provinces, and apply one uniform law throughout the Union. Surely he (Mr. Merriman), as one of the pioneers of the industry, must recognise that it was in the interests of the industry. He was extremely glad to see that the right hon. gentleman (General Botha) had moved in this direction, not only in this matter, but also in regard to the diseases of stock. His right hon. friend (Mr. Merriman) objected to inspection, but legislation was conceived in the general interests, and not in the interests of a section. From what he could hear from farmers in this growing fruit industry, they were agreed that produce should be inspected, and that there should be a certain standard. Provision was made the Bill for compensation to be paid on a reasonable basis.
No. You have not read the Bill.
read one of the clauses which provided for compensation to be paid to any owner whose property was injuriously affected “by the exercise of such power,” and added that it was the right hon. gentleman who, unfortunately, had not read the Bill.
said that he could not understand the objection of the hon. member for Victoria West. He thought that if they took out this clause and this amendment, the Bill would be absolutely worthless. What he thought they ought to do was to protect the man whose place was quarantined on suspicion. He moved a proviso to the effect that where quarantine had been imposed upon suspicion only, a further inspection should take place within a period of not less than four weeks, and if the suspicion were not well-founded, the quarantine should be withdrawn.
said that hon. members did not seem to realise the difference between sub-sections (1) ami (2). The former only gave the right of inspection. It would not be necessary to quarantine a whole farm. It may only be necessary to quarantine a free or a small area. Sub-section (2) dealt with cases where a dangerous disease had actually been discovered. He hoped the amendment and proviso would be adopted.
did not see why an inspector should have four weeks in order to make up his mind as to whether the disease really existed. The period was excessive. Owners should be safeguarded against the carrying of diseases by inspectors from one farm to another. The Minister of Education had pointed out that sub-section (2) referred to compensation, but had failed to point out that the compensation in question could only be paid for damage suffered in connection with that sub-section. There was no compensation provided for in regard to subsection (1) which was unfair. If a farm were quarantined just while the fruit was ripening, who would suffer the damage?
said he could not grasp the objections against the inspection of plants and trees. Cattle farmers had to put up with inspection; why should others be exempted?
said they were bound to trust the Government. No namby-pamby policy would do in fighting agricultural pests, and he would support the clause. The inspector would investigate first of all, and that could hardly cause any damage. Plante would only be destroyed if infection was proved, and unless it was shown that Government abused its powers, it should! be given complete authority to act in the matter.
also supported the clause. The quarantining of farms would beneficially affect the general fruit trade. Stringent measures for the protection of healthy orchards were required, if that brarch of agricuiture was to flourish. He thought the Government would at a later date have to introduce an even more drastic Bill, because it would be found that the provisions of the preseni: one would be inadequate to deal with the unfortunate state of affairs.
said that Middelburg had inherited the codlin moth from Stellenbosch. They had destroyed all blossoms for three years, and had even cut down trees.
pressed his objections, and repeated that an inspector should be able to tell, within less than four weeks, whether disease existed. Several plant diseases had been spread by inspectors.
moved to delete the words “not less than,” in the amendment proposed by the hon, member for Worcester (Mr. Heatlie).
said he would like to point out that the wording of the original was “within four weeks,” so that the amendment would make no difference
said there were still the two matters raised by the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) and the hon. member for George (Mr. Currey). He thought he had two amendments which would cover their points, and not render the clause any the worse. The right hon. member for Victoria West should be particularly anxious for compensation for possible damage done during the inspection. He would, therefore, move to add “and compensation shall be paid in ease of loss or damages caused in such inspection.”
Nonsense.
No nonsense at all. He moved further that in clause 62 there be inserted: “should there be reasons to suspect the presence of any insect pest or plant disease.”
The amendment is not in order It entails expenditure, and, therefore, can only come from the Minister of Finance.
The amendments moved by the Minister of Education, Mr. Heatlie, and Mr. Kuhn were agreed to.
The amendment moved by Mr. Merriman was negatived.
The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
On clause 16,
moved that clauses 16 to 20 stand over for the present year until next year, because he thought the Act would prove unworkable if these clauses remained in the Bill.
said that he could not put that to the committee. All he could put to the committee was whether clause 16 should stand over, because the committee was dealing with that clause.
said that in that case he would move to postpone consideration of clause 16. His object in doing so was Jo give the inhabitants of the Cape Province an opportunity of voicing their opinions on the clause.
supported the amendment. The Government should enable hon. members to consult their constituents on a matter of that description, In his constituency it would be practically impossible to carry out such a clause, for it contained, inter alia, two million acres of Crown Lands-excellent hatching ground for locusts. Was there any way of compelling the Government to carry out the law on its own ground? Some farms were 30,000 acres in extent. Owners would have to go a long way in order to notify the presence of locusts, and subsequently to the nearest town so as to purchase poison The Bill might be very well for small farms such as they had in the Transvaal and the Free State, but in Bechuanaland it would not do.
trusted the Government would not listen to the opponents of the clause. Next year, the identical objections would be repeated. It was not at all necessary to patrol a farm day after day; the Bill only provided that as soon as the presence of locusts came to a farmer’s knowledge, he would have to notify the authorities. He moved, as an amendment, that notice might be given to any police station, magistrate, or field-cornet.
supported the amendment of the hon. member for Hope Town. Though he considered it his duty to assist the Government, he was no less obliged to watch the interests of his constituents. The Government had altogether eight million acres of Crown lands in the North-western districts, which produced a tremendous number of locusts How, then, could they expect farmers to destroy those locusts at their own, expense, but for the benefit of the whole country? He much regretted the fact that the amendment had been greeted with derision, because it was an eminently fair one.
said he could not support the hon. member for Hope Town. If it were true that some farmers in the North-western districts of the Cape lived too for to be able to report the presence of locusts, one had to suppose that they also lived too for the police to come and worry them.
said that representatives of Free State constituencies could hardly vote for the amendment of the hon. member for Hope Town, because they themselves had a Locust Destruction. Act in the Free State. Co-operation was essential, because no individual could do any good by his own unaided efforts in a matter of that nature.
said it had been proved that stringent locust regulations were quite practicable in his constituency, which was by no means a small one. Why should Prieska complain if Zout-pansberg acquiesced? Why postpone the matter? Surely, it would not take a year to let constituents know that henceforth they were to report the presence of locusts to the polioe!
said it was all very well for the Government to order farmers about, but what of the Government themselves? They owned, altogether, about twenty millions of acres of Crown lands in the Cape, and he thought Ministers had introduced ill-considered legislation. If they provided the farmers with sprays and poison, locusts would soon be destroyed. He would not vote against the clause, however.
urged that there could not be any serious objection to the clause under debate. No duty was laid upon anybody until they reached clause 18. Surely clauses 16 and 17 could be allowed to pass.
hoped that the amendment would be withdrawn, as the subject had amply been discussed at the second reading. His constituents and the people of the Transvaal wanted that legislation, and he thought that they could not delay it. The question was: Were not locusts a plague, and if so, should they not do their best to exterminate them? He thought that they should do all they could to exterminate locusts. (Cheers.) If that amendment were passed, the delay would only mean shelving the whole matter. In the Transvaal they had been very successful in combating the locust pest, and he only desired that they should follow up that success. (Hear, hear.) No case for delay had been made out. If constituents were consulted, every clause would be objected to for some reason or other, and the amendment was quite unacceptable. People who owned thirty thousand acres of ground could not be looked upon as poor, and should certainly be able to contribute something towards ridding the country of a pest, that retarded its progress. The destruction of locusts was a comparatively early matter if they were up and doing. If the Government indeed possessed eight millions of acres in Prieska, the hon. member for that constituency could set his mind at rest, because in that case his constituents could not be held responsible for a very large tract. The Government would look after its own ground, and had successfully carried out locust destruction there in the past. Private owners should emulate that example.
said that the hon. member for Prieska had hurled an accusation at that side of the House, which he thought ought not to go unchallenged. He had said that because when an amendment was moved from the Ministerial side of the House, it was received with laughter from the Opposition side. It would be manifestly unjust if such a thing were allowed to go unchallenged. (Hear, hear.) He could assure the hon. member that the amendment moved by the hon. member for Hope Town had been very carefully considered. It was absurd to say that they must go back to their constituents on every possible question. The Transvaal had done well in reward to the eradication of locusts. All that the Prime Minister now asked for v/as the same power as they had had in the Transvaal.
said that in that instance he could not agree with his hon. friends who represented the North-west. He did not think it would help them to postpone that matter. The Prime Minister, however, did not seem to realise the peculiar conditions existing in the North-west, and he hoped that some consideration would be shown to the people there. He hoped that the hon. member would withdraw his amendment. The matter would have to be tackled in any case but the Bill required amending if it was to become a practical measure.
said that he was not going to withdraw his motion, even if he were the only one who voted for it. Hon. members could easily speak of the Transvaal, where they had almost exterminated locusts, but the same state of affairs did not exist in his district, and to try to kill off the locusts was like trying to empty a river bucket, by bucket. They must get at the source, and unless they could do that it was no use trying to combat the evil, because there was an in exhaustible supply of locusts. His constituents were against that Bill, and his duty was to vote against these provisions. If he did vote for it, he need never go back to his constituents. (Laughter.) The Bill was impracticable, and would lead to useless expenditure, i.e. taxation. There was no immediate danger of a locust invasion, and it was only fair to consult the country.
said he could not support the previous speaker. The Government were going to assist the farmer in fighting locusts, whereas the Free State law did not even grant the farmer that measure of relief, so that the Bill, as for as he was concerned, was an improvement on the old order of things.
applauded the Bill. He had suffered much from locusts, and trusted the Government would pursue a vigorous policy in fighting them.
opposed the amendment of the hon. member for Hope Town, because delay would only lead to reiteration of the objections against the clause next year.
said he could not understand the attitude of the hon, member for Hope Town, if an owner were ignorant of the presence of locusts, how could he be expected to notify the police?
said the Prime Minister’s speech showed that the right hon. gentleman was not quite au fait. The Crown lands he, the speaker, had referred to, were situated on the Western border, and the Government did absolutely nothing on these lands with regard to locusts. Farmers in that region had large tracts of country, which they used for stock-breeding only. The locusts, therefore, did not trouble them, in the least, in fact they were rather glad to see them because the insects kept the grass fairly short and did away with the necessity of burning the veld. Why should people in those circumstances be burdened with the destruction, which was solely for the benefit of people living farther east?
said the previous speaker had not shown a proper spirit. The Government were not desirous of acting to the detriment of a large part of the Union. The Cape had annually spent large sums on locust destruction, but unsuccessfully. If the new Government introduced fresh measures, it was not to impoverish the people, but to save them from being ruined Sprays and poison would be supplied gratis. Experience bad shown that locusts were not batched in Bechuanaland only. The insects hatched there would migrate and lay their eggs elsewhere, so that the next generation was hatched out in another part of the country. Hon. members made too much of the difficulties involved in getting at the locust. In the Transvaal there had been general co-operation, and large swarms had been destroyed. He again opposed delay. He could not understand farmers allowing their veld to foe eaten off by the locust, because such a course was harmful to the country.
Mr. Aucaamp’s motion was negatived.
moved to add after “in writing,” the words, “or otherwise.” He said he moved “or otherwise” so as to deal with the natives. He did not want them to have the excuse that they could not write.
supported the hon. member for Potchefstroom, but moved, as a further amendment, that notice should be given as soon as the owner could possibly do so.
supported the previous speaker. The law would be carried out by magistrates, who were apt to punish a main for not giving notice immediately, even though such a course might not have been possible to the farmer.
also supported the amendment.
said that it the amendment were adopted they might as well say good-bye to the prospect of locusts being reported.
said the clause again referred to regulations. Those regulations were not property explained to the farmers, who might thus contravene them without knowing what they were doing. He moved that no farmer should be punished for the contravention of regulations with which he was unacquainted.
supported the previous speaker. In this particular case, he thought regulations would be superfluous.
hoped that the first amendment would not be passed, as it would simply mean a loophole for evasion Be agreed that there was too much legislation by regulation.
moved after “knowledge” to insert “with reasonable speed.
said some of the people in isolated pants of the country could not always immediately leave their homes to make a report, especially seeing that sometimes that would mean a day’s journey.
said he could not see his way to accept the amendment moved by the hon. member for Clanwilliam. He would suggest the addition of the words “without undue delay,” in the provision about notice. The regulations were meant to provide for questions being put to the owner as to the size of swarms, nature of the soil, etc., which information was required by the department. He opposed the suggestion of the hon. member for Boshof.
appealed to the Minister to accept his amendment.
said he could not support the Minister.
asked what was the use of having Bills drafted if they were to be watered down in that fashion? Let them stick to the Bill and take up a strong policy.
withdrew his amendment.
moved an amendment on the lines indicated by the Minister of Education.
said that if the amendment was adopted, questions might arise as to what was, and what was not, “undue delay.”
said he did not think there would be any difficulty about that, because there was no great hurry. The eggs would not be batched until after the first rains.
The amendments proposed by the Minister of Education, Mr. Neser, and Mr. Kuhn were agreed to.
The amendment proposed by Mr. Van Niekerk was negatived.
moved: In line 11, after “location,” to insert “or the occupier (if he be a native) of land which is not in a native location or reserve”; in the same line, before “kraal,” to omit “the” and substitute “each”; in line 12, after “given,” to insert “by him ”; and in the same line, after “headman,” to insert “or chief, as the case may be.” † The MINISTER OF EDUCATION read the section as it would appear if the amendment were adopted, and put it to the committee whether it would not really amount to a contradiction. He pointed out the difficulty of finding a headman where the land was under the joint occupation of several natives.
pressed his amendment.
pointed out that the owner was obliged to report. “Owner” included occupier.
supported the Prime Minister.
said he was not convinced that his amendment should he dropped.
asked what would have to be done in cases where there was no chief or headman, if the amendment were adopted? The clause would meet all circumstances likely to arise.
said that sub-section 3 was not clear, and that the amendment of the hon. member for Waterberg (Mr. Nicholson) was necessary. The scope of the clause should be widened.
pointed out that there was some difference between the Dutch and English versions of that clause of the Bill, because, he thought,
“ bezitter” was not exactly the same as “occupier.”
said that if the hon. member looked at the definition of “bezitter” in the Bill, he would see there was no difficulty involved.
The amendment moved by Mr. Nicholson was negatived.
Clause 16 was then agreed to.
On clause 17,
moved that the words, “a copy” should be omitted, and “the import” substituted.
Is there any penalty for not transmitting?
Yes.
Agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, was agreed to.
On clause 18,
moved to add at the end of the clause:
“ In consultation with and on the advice of the department, by which material for such destruction shall be provided free of charge.” He said this was the practice at present in force in all the Provinces. By it they would do a great deal indeed to fight the disease. Without a little sympathetic consideration of this kind he was afraid the law would remain a dead letter.
moved in line 16 to insert the words “by such means at his command”; to delete the word “immediately” in the same lime, and at the end of the clause, to insert “and aid the department in carrying out all the provisions of section 17, the materials for such destruction to be provided by the department-free of charge.”
That involves expenditure. I can’t put it.
Then I will take out “free of charge.” At the end of the clause he moved to add “and shall aid the department in carrying out the provisions of the Act.” Wihiat, asked the hon. member, could one man do against a host of voetgangers? He could not be held responsible, and the object of his amendment was to charge the Government with the destruction—only, the farmer should assist.
said he could not possibly accept the amendment—(cheers)—which he thought was wrong in principle. He thought the onus should rest more immediately on the man who was going to be benefited—the owner of the property. Another reason why he could not accept the amendment was that it was contrary to the Constitution. He had obtained the consent of the Governor-Genenal to pay for the material, but he had not authority at the present time to go beyond that.
modified his amendment to the effect that the occupier should do everything in his power to assist the official appointed by the Government in connection with the destruction of such voetgangers.
said the difficulties in connection with the carrying out of the Bill centred in the clause under discussion. It was altogether impracticable, and, if the committee passed the clause, they might as well tear up the Bill, which would become a dead letter. The clause went much too far. How could they expect people to go 20 or evert 30 hours on horseback in order to obtain material for the destruction of voetgangers? Por the matter of that, by what right could the Government compel farmers to destroy voetgangers, at the latter’s expense, at all? His objections to clause 16 were but trifling, compared to the difficulty he felt in connection with the present clause.
said the opposition to the present chapter passed his understanding. He quoted from the Bill to show that it was the department which, in the first instance, would look after the destruction of locusts. Killing a swarm really involved very little trouble, and there was no reason why the farmer should be relieved from all responsibility.
said that the (Minister’s amendment had removed any objection he might otherwise have felt in connection with the clause. It was not right for the hon. member for Prieska to paint matters in the darkest possible colours, and to imply that all the Government wanted was to ruin the farmer.
quoted from his experience to show the impracticability of holding farmers responsible for the destruction of voet-gangers.
moved an amendment to the amendment of the Minister of Education, in order to ensure for the farmer Government assistance in destroying the locusts.
said hon. members were going just a little too far. All the opposition to that part of the measure seemed to originate in the North western districts of the Cape He did not know why that should be so, but the Northwest appeared to be a peculiar sort of country, where people could not even tackle a locust. He was going to have a look at that country before long. (Hear, hear.) Evidently, farmers up there expected the Government not only to pay for all the material, but to send a commando to fight the insects. The owner of the farm, it appeared, was to sit tight and do nothing. The Bill bad been drafted so as to smooth over all difficulties as for as possible, but the Government could not consent to placing on the Statute-book a law through which they might drive a wagon with sixteen oxen! It was his duty to protect the people, and that duty he was going to carry out in the Bill.
said they might as well tear up their laws as frame them in such a manner that anyone could escape through the meshes. He opposed the amendment of the hon. member for Hope Town. If anything had been required to convince him that the measure was urgently required, these speeches made on the subject would have done so. It would not do to condemn the Bill just because the need for it might not be felt in one particular part of the country.
supported the clause as printed.
moved to report progress.
opposed the motion. He thought the matter had been sufficiently threshed out, and they should come to a decision without further delay.
said he thought the Government showed unreasonable haste. He supported the motion.
considered the motion unfair. The hon. member for Prieska had had every opportunity of ventilating his opinions, but did not bring forward any new points of view. There was so much important work ahead that it was bad policy to spend an unreasonable amount cm time over one measure.
said that the amendment had not been fully debated by any means. He supported the motion.
said his hon. friends were most unreasonable. He respected the opinions of the hon. member for Prieska (Mr. Kuhn), but in this matter the hon. member did not represent the opinions of a large number of farmers in his constituency. Hon. members had been nearly eight hours discussing three clauses, and they could see from the tone of both sides of the House that if they talked about the matter for a fortnight they would not alter it. Hon. members had expressed their opinions dozens and dozens of times and the House was against them. Surely, if they wished to register their opinions they could call for a division, but don’t let them ask to report progress and then go on for another day with the same result. (Hear, hear.)
The motion to report progress was negatived.
said that the clause did not provide for locusts trekking from, say, his neighbour’s farm on to his own. He moved an amendment to cover that contingency.
opposed the amendment.
repeated his objections to the clause. How could an owner be compelled to “immediately exterminate” locusts when they appeared on his farm? The Government should alter this to read that the owner should do everything in his power. He much regretted; the fact that the Government compelled hon. members to turn night into day in order to force the Rill through.
said that, if only the eggs were destroyed in time, the trekking of locusts would be out of the question. If immediate notice were given of the appearance of the insects, the Government would be able to check their movements, and to establish reliable data on which to conduct a campaign. A stringent law of a similar character had been carried out in the Transvaal for the past three years, and in no single instance had it been found necessary to punish anyone. The majority were eager to see the law introduced, and they could not allow that majority to suffer for the sake of pacifying a small minority.
said he could not support the amendments moved by hon. members from the North-western districts of the Cape. It was impossible to saddle Government with the entire responsibility of locust destruction.
said that majorities and minorities had been referred to. He could not see the justice, however, of placing iniquitous burdens on the shoulders of the minority for the benefit of any majority. The swarms in his constituency were much larger than elsewhere. It was improper to force the Bill through against the wishes of the Government’s own supporters. That was not the way to treat hon. members on that side of the House.
thought hon. members representing the North-west were atrabilious. Where the country was too dry to allow of poison being mixed, the Government would surely stay its hand. Hon. members would not meet with insurmountable difficulties in facing their constituents if the matter were properly explained to the latter. They should at least make the attempt, rather than obstruct the passage of the Bill.
in replying to the last speaker, said his constituents were doing their very best; they could not very well be asked to do more! It was all very well for Parliament to make laws, but who would carry them out? He trusted the Government would not resort to extreme measures in forcing the Bill through committee.
considered the amendment of the hon. member for Hope Town superfluous.
said he saw that his best plan would be to desist from, moving any further amendments. As for as he was concerned, he had done his duty, and he could afford to wash his hands of the Bill.
said that he would continue to raise his voice against he clause under discussion.
Mr. Aucamp’s amendment was put at 11.52 p.m., and negatived.
Mr. Malan’s proviso was agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, was agreed to.
On clause 19,
said that farmers would not understand the word “ cogluikend” (conniving).
said the word expressed what was meant.
On clause 20, expenses of locust destruction,
moved to omit “eggs deposited or” in line 27.
moved to omit “or eighteen” in line 26. He considered that owners should be held responsible for the carrying out of clause 16 only, and not for that of clause 18.
moved to insert “wilfully” in line 26, section 20, and in line 27 to substitute words to the effect that he shall be liable to pay such amount towards the expenses incurred by the department in destroying voetgangers, as may be assessed by any competent Court, in his presence, judgment for which amount may be executed, in all respects, as a judgment of a Court of Resident Magistrate in a civil action is executed.
hoped that the first part of the amendment would not be pressed.
moved an amendment to protect any native from liability who should prove that he had individually endeavoured to comply with sections 16 and 18.
however, did not think this was necessary.
moved to add the following new subsection: “(4) In case of land which is not a native reserve or location, but which is occupied by natives only, all such expenses may be recovered pro rata from such male inhabitants of such land as by law are liable to pay native poll or hut tax, in the same manner as any native poll or hut tax is recoverable from these inhabitants.”
I accept the amendment.
The amendments moved by Mr. Kuhn and Mr. Watermeyer were negatived.
Mr. Nicholson’s amendment was agreed to.
moved an amendment to the effect that Government should be liable for the death of cattle resulting from locust poison. He considered that, whenever the Government took upon itself the responsibility of invading private farms for the purpose of destroying locusts, it should be liable for the consequences of its actions.
said he could not accept the amendment, because it would entail extra burdens on the Exchequer.
The amendment moved by the Minister of Education was agreed to.
The amendment moved by Mr. Madeley was withdrawn.
On clause 21,
moved to omit sub-section (c). It could, he said, be better dealt with under clause 23.
Agreed to.
In clause 22,
moved after “prohibit” to insert “or restrict. ”
Agreed to.
The clause as amended was agreed to.
New clause 21:
moved a new clause 21, providing that Chapter II. should apply to Crown lands as well las to farms.
said he could not accept the amendment, because it involved additional expenditure.
In clause 28,
moved in line 44 to insert “plants” after “keeping off.”
Agreed to.
Clause 8 was reverted to.
The amendment was agreed to.
The Bill was reported with amendments, and the consideration of these set down for Monday next.
The House adjourned at