from residents of Waterberg, praying that further Asiatic immigration be shopped (four petitions).

from R. A. Simmons, catering manager, South African Railways,

from the Municipality of Heilbron, praying that further Asiatic immigration be stopped.

from A. Fernandez, Table Bay Harbour Board.

from A M. Harris, teacher.

from F. Diedericks, morgue attendant, Cape Town.

from residents of Bloemfontein, praying that further Asiatic immigration be stopped.

Minutes of proceedings and papers of the South African National Convention, 1908-09. (Cheers.)

Land in Pelandaba, location, Herschel (Wesleyan Methodist Church); church site on the Embokotwa commonage by Wesleyan Mehhodest Church: by Anglican Church for a church site at Colosa, Idutywa; to lease Crown land off North Bay, Malmesbury; seaside resort site at Mdumbi Mouth. Ngqeieni; seaside resort at the Mtentu River Mouth, Lusikisiki; Wesleyan Methodist Church, school site in Nombeu’s location. Hersche!; land at Mount Avliff for cemetery; church site in Mgubo’s location, Herschel; squatters at Elands Bay, Piquetberg; Mqanduli recreation ground.

Explanatory schedule of the differences in establishments shown in the Estimates of Expenditure. 1910-11 and 1911-12; and revised “Pension” Vote.

Laws relating to the disposal of Crown lands.

Pension to Sir Somerset Richard French, late Agent-General (Cape).

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention had been directed to a case in the Supreme Court at Bloemfontein, in which it was alleged that the Chief Justice, Sir Andries Maasdorp, animadverted severely on the fact that certain pleadings and documents in the case of Nel v. Strauss had drawn by Advocate Dickson in the Dutch language, and that the Chief Justice had ordered them ‘to fee translated into English; and, if so, (2) whether a similar procedure was followed in the case of pleadings drawn in English; and (3) whether he was in a position to state at whose cost these translations were made, and, if at the cast of the litigants, whether the procedure is in accordance with Article 137 of the South Africa Act?

replied that his attention had been drawn to the case of Nel v. Strauss, heard in the Supreme Court at Bloemfontein, in which the Chief Justice (Sir Andries Maasdorp) ordered that the pleadings, which had been drawn in Dutch, should be translated into English. No such proceedings had, to his knowledge, been followed in requiring translation of English pleadings into Dutch. The Chief Justice had assured him that immediately after the case was brought before him be gave instructions that the required translation should be made by officers of the Court without additional expense to the litigants, and that all future cases whore translation into English was required a similar practice would obtain, so that no unnecessary delay would be caused. There was no doubt that the causing of any extra expense to any litigant or any other mode of penalising him by postponement or otherwise, because his pleadings were contributed in either of the official languages of which the judge had not sufficient knowledge, would be contrary to the provisions of Article 137 of the Constitution. He had no doubt that any cases, requiring translation being brought to the notice of the Bench, the necessary translations could be done by the officials without any delay.

asked, in view of the finding of the Court of Inquiry into the stranding of the S.S. Aotea on January 21, at Mouille Point, what steps the Government intend to take:(1) To ascertain if the stigma laid upon the port thereby is deserved; and (2) to establish the accuracy or otherwise of charts issued by responsible authority?

said that he was unaware that a stigma had been laid upon the port, but if so he hoped it was undeserved. The charts were issued by the Hydrographic Office, and if necessary communications would be made to the Admiralty. The fullest inquiry would be made and the necessary steps would be taken.

asked: (1) Whether it is the intention of the Government, to introduce legislation dealing with mission stations throughout the Union during the present session; and, if not, (2) whether the Government will apply the provisions of Act No. 29 of 1909 (Cape) to the mission station at Zoar, in the district of Ladsmith?

replied that the Government did not intend to introduce such legislation during the present session; and as to the second part of the question, the matter was under consideration.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs whether he was prepared to lay on the table of the House the recommendations made by the Native Council of Natali on the Native Labour Regulation Bill before the House to regulate the recruiting and employment of native labour.

laid the papers on the table.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether his attention had been called to reports of Medical Officers of Health in various parts of the Union, urging the necessity for legislation in connection with factories and workshops?

replied in the affirmative, and said that the matter was engaging his attention.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether his attention had been directed to the fact that a shipload of 2,710 quarters of beef and 5,500 carcases of mutton is soon expected in Table Bay from Australia, and (2) whether he is prepared to consider the advisability of lowering, at least to their previous level, the recently-increased railway charges for the conveyance of slaughter stock?

said that on February 20 a ship arrived in Table Bay with 1,742 quarters of beef and 1,992 carcases of mutton. It was understood that the importation was due to a scarcity on account of East Coast fever, and to the poverty of flocks through excessive droughts, which had occurred in the sheep-farming districts. The second part of the reply could not be heard in the Press Gallery.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether he is aware that, owing to the nature of the accommodation provided at the Point Abattoir, Durban, for, receiving and slaughtering cattle sent there in large numbers, such cattle endure great suffering and cruelty through being long, delayed without water or food, and often crowded in railway trucks, standing without shelter in the broiling hot sun; (2) whether the Government will cause inquiry to be made with a view to remedying such a state of affairs; and (3) whether it is not possible for the Government to provide a more suitable and convenient place for a fully equipped abattoir?

replied that the circumstances arose from the fact that a number of slaughter stock sent to the Point Abattoir was in excess of the number for which there was accommodation. The Government would not foe justified in expending any considerable sum on the present abattoir, in view of the fact that the Durban Corporation had definitely decided to build a municipal abattoir at Congella. Everything possible was being done to obviate cruelty to animals, and an endeavour was being made to arrange that cattle, for the removal of which magistrate’s permits were necessary, should go forward only in such numbers as could be conveniently handled.

asked the Prime Minister whether he was aware of a report in the press to the effect that a large number of Boer prisoners-of-war were still on the Bermudas, and, if so, whether he was in a position to inform the House: (1) How many prisoners-of-war are still on the islands; (2) what is their condition and means of livelihood and; (3) whether the Government intends to assist them either to come back or in some other direction?

was understood to reply that there was a large amount of misunderstanding about the whole matter, due to reports in the papers. According to the official report, there were eight Transvaal and two Free State men at Bermuda, and they were not in an impoverished condition. They had settled down there, arid the Government had offered to repatriate them.

asked the Minister of Justice whether the Government would take into consideration the desirability of re-establishing the Periodical Court which existed at Marydale, in the division of Prieska, about two years ago?

was understood to reply in the negative.

asked the Minister of Public Works whether in view of the very unsatisfactory condition of and insufficient accommodation in, the public buildings at Prieska, the Government will take steps to remedy that state of affairs?

said that the work would be put in hand during the coming financial year.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours, whether it is true that the public tenderers for the leases of the railways bookstalls throughout the Union have been informed that in future no contracts will be made with private firms for this purpose; and, if so, (1.) whether the Board intends to carry on the bookstalls as a departmental concern; and (2) what reasons of public policy have influenced the Board in coming to this decision?

(1) Yes. (2) The public interest. (Cheers.)

asked whether the irrigation works at Tzaneen, in the district of Zoutpansberg, were completed; and, if so, whether the Government had considered the advisability of allocating the Tzaneen, and adjoining Government lands for the purposes of land settlement?

The irrigation, works at Tzaneen, on the Pelitizi River, in the district of Zoutpansberg, are completed. The irrigable area, is at present under the control of the Agricultural Department, and is being utilised as an agricultural experimental station.

asked the Minister of Lands whether he had received a request from the Village Board of Elliot for authority to sell erven if so, whether such request had been acceded to; and, if not, what was the reason for refusal?

The Government has received an application from the Village Management Board of Elliot for the grant of certain lots for the purpose of sale. A number of the lots applied for were advertised for sale at public auction on February 25, 1911, hut have been withdrawn from sale pending a decision on the Board’s application.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether he is aware of the immense ravages amongst horned stook in the Bloemfontein district and some of the western districts of the Orange Free State, owing to the dangerous spread of galziekte and lamziekte? (2) Whether it has been brought to his notice that the disease is rapidly spreading, and that it is now attacking sheep and goats with fatal effect? (3) Whether he will make inquiries; and, if he finds the facts to be as stated above, he will cause all possible steps to be taken to prevent any further spread, and order investigation into the causes of the diseases with the view to discovering some cure?

Reports have reached the department to the effect that there has been an increase in the mortality from this disease amongst horned cattle in the Orange Free State, Western Transvaal, and Bechuanaland; but these reports do not suggest that the disease is spreading rapidly. The Government is not in possession of any record of the occurrence of the disease amongst sheep and goats, but is making inquiries on this point. The disease has been engaging the attention of Government veterinary bacteriologists for some years past and a station for its study has been established in the Orange Free State, with the object of ascertaining the cause, and, if possible, of discovering a remedy. The disease has also been investigated in two other centres.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether it is the case that the Undersecretary for Agriculture at Bloemfontein is to be removed, with his whole staff, to Pretoria; and, if so, (2) what officials he will place in the Orange Free State to watch and assist the agricultural industry?

No decision has yet been arrived at in this matter. If it be found necessary to remove the staff in question the technical divisions of the department will be fully represented at Bloemfontein.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he would cause an investigation to be made in the Ladybrand and Thaba ’Nchu districts, and other eastern districts of the Orange Free State, into the pests which were ruining the wheat growers in those districts?

Some attention has already been paid to this subject, and it is proposed to make further investigation. The inquiries necessary are, however, of such a nature that it is feared that they will have to be continued over a long series of years to be of much value.

asked the Minister of Public Works on what date the sites of the eastern and western blocks of the Union Buildings at Pretoria were handed over to the contractor, and on what date the site of the amphitheatre block of the Union Buildings was handed over to the contractors?

May 27, 1910.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) Whether the Government is aware that under the provisions of Act No. 17 of 1895 (Natal), as amended by Act No. 19 of 1910, free Indian women are still being held liable to pay an annual licence tax of three pounds per annum at the discretion of the Magistrates; and that in December last four free Indian women, who pleaded extreme poverty and inability to pay, were sentenced to imprisonment for one month for failure to pay arrears of this licence tax; and (2) whether the Government will take the necessary steps to secure such an administration of Act No. 19 of 1910, or such other steps as will relieve the Indian women of Natal from further liability to pay this tax?

said that in the case in question, the Magistrate was satisfied the women could pay the money, but were unwilling. The Government did not propose to take further steps.

asked the Minister of the Interior what means he has taken to satisfy himself that the public safety is secure in admitting cases of sleeping sickness into the Union?

said that only one case had been admitted into the Union, and that the case was that of a gentleman domiciled in the Cape Province who had contracted the sickness on a visit to Nyasaland. The patient was observing certain regulations, and the safety of the public was adequately secured.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours if he will lay on the table a return showing: (1) The lines of railway in course of construction in the Cape Province: (a) at 30th May, 1910, and (b) since that date ;

(2) the estimated cost of each of such lines ;

(3) the amounts expended on each of such lines: (a) at 30th May, 1910, and (b) since that late up to the 31st January last; and (4) from what funds the expenditure on such lines has been met?

promised that this would be done.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he will lay on the table a statement, showing approximately how the sum of £455,000 provided in the Railway Estimates to meet revision of rates has been allocated among the four Provinces of the Union, and also what principal classes of goods will be affected by such revision?

said that the statement would be laid on the table in the course of a few days.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs:(1) Whether the Government has entered into negotiations with the Deutsche OstAfrika Linie in regard to the ocean mail contract; and, if so, with what result; and (2) whether he will lay all the papers and correspondence relating to the ocean mail contract, including a letter dated the 13th January, 1911, addressed to the Minister of Finance by the Union-Castle Mail Steamship Company, Limited, on the table of the House?

said that no such arrangement had been entered into. He laid on the table certain correspondence between the Minister of Finance and the Union-Castle Mail Steamship Company, Limited.

asked the Minister of Public Works what was the period of delay in working days in the completion of the University Buildings at Pretoria due to each of the following causes, viz.: (a) wet weather; (b) lack of bricks of sufficiently good quality; and (c) shortage of suitable stone?

said that these were matters between the Government and the contractor

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether he will explain fully the reason for the issue of Notice No. 278, dated the 13th February, 1911, in the “Union Gazette,” and (2) whether; in view of the facts that a bag is manufactured which is described as “A quality twill 21/2 lb.,” and that merchants have already imported quantities of the said bag in accordance with previous Government Notices, he will give instructions to have Notice No. 278 immediately cancelled?

asked that the question should stand over.

This was agreed to.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours where the Grading Committee is now at work, and when it is intended that the committee shall visit Port Elizabeth?

said that the committee was at Bloemfontein at present, and expected to be at Port Elizabeth on March 16 or 17.

asked the Minister of Public Works: (1) When the Government Buildings at Pretoria will be completed; (2) whether the delay is due to the refusal of the contractor or contractors to grant an increase of 3d. per hour to the workmen, employed thereon; and (3) whether he will insist upon the immediate resumption of work upon the buildings, or whether he will enforce the penally clauses in the contract?

(1) Thirty-six months from the date of handing over the site, May 27, 1910; but it was impossible to say if the buildings would be finished by that time. (2) Certain delay had arisen over the wages of the bricklayers.

(3) It was not proposed to insist on the immediate resumption of work, and time will be allowed to the contractor,

asked whether the Prime Minister would set aside a day for the consideration of a motion to refer the Union Building papers to a Select Committee.

said that owing to the volume of business it would be impossible to set a day apart for the purpose.

moved that the following petitions against further Asiatic immigration, and praying that the trading rights and movements of Asiatics be restricted, be referred to the Government for consideration, viz.: (1) Presented to the House on February 1: From the Mayor of Potchefstroom; J. J. Hartley, president of the Chamber of Commerce, Potchefstroom; C. W. Jooste and 122 others; A. Sandbergh and 62 others; J. A. Young and 60 others; P. J. Malan and 14 others; P. J. de Villiers and 125 others; S. Eloff and 22 others; R. J. P. van Ton-der and 150 others; John Somers and 177 others. (2) Presented to the House on February 2: From the Municipal Council of Oudtshoorn; J. A. Scott and 117 others; S. Stanford and four others; the Chamber of Commerce of Krugers-dorp; J. C. Stegmann and 180 others. (3) Presented to the House on the 3rd February: From the Municipal Council of Woodstock; P. Gildenhuys and 96 others; E. H. Levi and 89 others; the Mayoir and Town Council of Lindley; the Johannesburg Chamber of Commerce; the Mayor and Councillors of Victoria West; C. K. Scheepers and 95 others; G. A. Boyd and 61 others; the Mayor and Councillors of the Municipality of Mowbray, (4) Presented to the House on the 6th February: From the Municipal Comcil of Simon’s Town; the Municipal Council of Belfast; the Municipal Council of Caledon; the Mayor and 71 other inhabitants of Jacobsedal. (5) Presented to the House on the 7th February: From C. J. Joubert and 266 others; A. J. Baird and 183 others; P. J. van der Merwe and 61 others; the Municipal Council of Bloemfontein; C. W. Hudson and 70 others; H. N. Pieters and; 285 others; the Municipal Council of Wolmaransstad; the Chamber of Commerce of Lydenburg; the Municipal Council of Lydenburg. The mover referred to the number of petitions that had been presented, and said there would be more laid on the table before the session closed. In April, 1909, in the Transvaal, 8,373 Asiatics were registered. He found, in 1910, 4,754 had licences for trading purposes. He went on to deal with the number in various towns, such as Potchefstroom, where the licences had risen from 16 in 1897 to over 100 in the present year. He quoted Transvaal figures to illustrate the importance of the matter, and alluded to the fact that the problem in the Cape Province was very severe. They had long ago found that it was impossible for the European to compete with the Asiatic. The Asiatic worked hard and for long hours. He Jed a simple life—so simple, in fact, that they could only hope that it would not be copied by Europeans. Mr. Neser drew attention to a report with regard to Asiatics which had been issued in Port Elizabeth, more especialy with regard to their social state. Several of the petitioners proposed very drastic remedies. They desired to see immigration put an end to, the licensing of Asiatics stopped, and the licensing of businesses put in the hands of local authorities, las in the Cape Province. The legislation of the Natal and Cape Provinces still left the door fairly wide for Asiatics to come in. He hoped the House Would ere long pass measures to absolutely prevent the influx of Asiatics.

seconded.

moved to omit all the words after “that” in the first line down to the word “restrict,” for the purpose of inserting the following words: “All petitions presented to the House during the present session.”

seconded the amendment.

said they had seen white shopkeepers who were married men, and who were supporting their families, and who were good citizens, driven out by these Asiatics. Their shops were taken over by the Indians, till at the present time there must be 100 Asiatic traders in Port Elizabeth, and they saw that same thing repeated in other parts of the Colony. The hon. member who had spoken dwelled upon the industry of these people and their method, but their methods were not the methods of Eluropeans—they were entirely Asiatic. Several remedies had been suggested. One was that a licence should not be transferred from one to another, and so if the Asiatic went away, or died, or went insolvent, Iris licence could not be transferred to another Asiatic. By these means the licences would eventually come to an end. He hoped the Minister of the Interior would deal with this matter, because it was a growing evil. The danger also would be diminished if it were seen that new licences were not granted indiscriminately, and if they were left in the hands of the local authorities. It was their duty to take this matter in hand, because these people were increasing, and they were quite incapable of becoming valuable citizens of the country.

said there was no doubt that the whole of South Africa was threatened by these parasites. They had eaten their way into the very heart of South Africa, and he was prepared to go further with the remedy. An hon. member had talked about vested interests, but what he would say would be: Sweep away these vested interests at one fell swoop and get rid of these Asiatics. They could compensate them if necessary, for the ranks of the unemployed were swelled in consequence of Asiatic immigration. As far as he was concerned, he would not rest until these Asiatics were as scarce on the shores of South Africa as Esquimaux. (Laughter.)

pointed out that it was not only the methods of business which they took exception to, but the sanitary conditions prevailing in the shops of these Asiatics as well.

said one of the dingers was that these Asiatics were going in for farming, and as they were able to live at very much less than Europeans, they might take their livelihood away. Unless they took drastic measures the Indians would ruin the country.

said that Asiatics were an evil to the country. In other lands there were severe laws against the importation of Asiatics, and that should be the case here too. The hon. member referred to the competition of Asiatics with Europeans, and urged tihat Government should take steps to stop Asiatics entering the Union. Competition among themselves had convinced them that they were no longer wanted as traders, and now they started competing as farmers.

said he was surprised at the quarter in which the matter had been given support. If there was anybody in that House who was an earnest and sincere Imperialist it was the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Sir EL Walton), who had, times without number, almost died on the floor of the House in the cause of true Imperialism. A man of the hon. member’s intelligence must know that if there was one thing which was distasteful and likely to cause trouble to the Empire to which the hon. member for Port Elizabeth was proud to belong to it was this harrying of Asiatics. The question was a difficult one, but he (Mr. Merriman) wished to point out that the right was not to harry these people when they were here, but to prevent them coming here. While they were objecting to Asiatic immigration in one part of the Union, they were importing them by hundreds into other parts of the Union. Since this Government had been in power the thing had been countenanced and winked at, and the Asiatics were pouring in, and they were likely to pour in. He had no love for these people at all. He remembered the time when Asiatics used to be considered a very useful stick with which to beat, the late Transvaal Government. He re membered Secretaries of State writing despatches about the infamous treatment of Asiatics in the Transvaal, when to his (Mr. Merriman’s) knowledge the late Pre sident Kruger adopted a fairly liberal attitude towards them. At that time Secretaries of State issued Blue-books without number to show the infamous way in which Asiatics were treated, but the first thing we did when we annexed the Transvaal was to put these people under the harrow. There was simply no logic about the matter at all, and so long as we continued to import them by hundreds in lone part of the Union it seemed a mistake to harry them about in another part of the Union. What were the poor fellows to do? We were not going to allow them to trade and to open little shops, because if one wished in this country to be “tip-top” one kept a little shop. If the Asiatics cultivated a little ground, then we said they were competing with us. What, in the name of Heaven, were they to do? The whole subject was one of enormous difficulty, and he did not envy the Government when it got the petitions. He did not approve of his hon. friend’s policy altogether. When people behaved decently, do not harry them about; but do not let them come here. Put up a notice, “No Indians need apply in the Cape; they are not wanted. ’ But once we allowed them to come it was incurring a very great responsibility to the Commonwealth to which we belonged—the British Empire, as it was called—because they knew what use was made of any laws passed here in regard to Indians in another part of the Empire, and to prejudice interests which were greater than our own. The whole subject was fraught with the greatest responsibility and difficulty, but all he asked was that hon. members should not blow the coals up too much, because they might be doing harm in a direction of which they had little idea. They should remain true to the principles of Liberalism which they professed. They knew what it was to be trampled down by their Imperialistic friends. Do not let them follow their example, and do not let them trample on the weak. He did not love the Asiatics, and did not want to see them in South Africa, but if they came here, let us give them: fair and honest treatment. (Cheers.)

said he was very glad to hear the words o-f the hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman). It was time that they poke in moderation on this question. The Indians did not come here of their own motion, but were imported by the then Colonists for the latter’s own advantage. They had done very good work, and Natal was indebted to them for the industries which existed there—industries which could not be worked at all but for Indian labour. In many ways the Indians had done excellent service, and whatever happened, they should have the fairest and most impartial treatment. The great complaint against them was that they competed with the European trader.

No.

However, they were industrious, and had many good qualities. South Africa must remember the duty it owed to the Empire, which included India.

supported the motion. Asiatics, he said, were a menace to the white population, and would be a very real danger to the country later on. Immigration should herefore be checked, and pressure should be brought to bear on the Asiatics at present in the country in order to make them leave. The country contained so many coloured aborigines that it would be unwise to admit more colour from other countries. In his constituency Asiatics had completely ousted white business men, and (they were beginning to go in for agriculture.

was absolutely astonished at the remarks of the hon. member for Durban (Sir D. Hunter). There was hardly half-a-dozen Indian traders in Natal of whom it could be said that they were brought there by the Natal people. When he had heard the speech of the hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman), he thought: where was the truth of the saying, “Self-preservation is the first law of Nature”? The Indian traders of Natal, he pointed out, were not, as a rule, British subjects, but many of them came from the East Coast. Having quoted the words of Lord Selborne, he said ’that as to the native trade in Natal, which was estimated at a value of a million, they had reports from Magistrates that nearly the whole of it had passed into the hands of the Indian traders. They found that these people were patronised and protected by European merchants, and that was why the Indians flourished. In the Cape the increase in the number of their licences was in much greater proportion than the increase in trade. The hon. member quoted figures to bear out what he said, and also with reference to the amount of the remittances sent to India. If the law of the Cape allowed one man to control 29 different licences, surely there was something wrong. Europeans must go down if that disastrous competition was allowed. He alluded to the two Bills which had been passed by the Natal Assembly; and with reference to the proviso to one of the Bills which dealt with compensation, he asked why that should be paid? These people had come of their own accord and made huge profits. They had proved a curse to the country. Was it suggested that compensation should he paid to the European traders who had been ruined through Indian competition? Let them give their own white people a chance, upon whom the prosperity and the moral stability of the country depended.

said that there was undoubtedly right throughout the country a very strong feeling against Asiatic trading. Unfortunately, in South Africa they had realised that danger almost too late, and were trying to lock the stable door after the horse had escaped. They had been told that it was one of the planks of the Government platform to stop that Asiatic trading, but the question was: what were they going to do with those licences of Asiatics whom they had in the country —men who had certain rights; and he supposed those rights must be respected. One of the most popular steps the Government could take would be to give these people a certain number of years to leave the country, and then compensate them. He thought that in the old Free State such legislation had been passed, and the result was that there were now no Asiatic traders there. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible for a European to compete with these Indians, and they were not an asset to the country. They sent all their savings out of the country to India. If the measure in the Cape could be extended over the whole of South Africa, it would: be a good thing. They had not only got into the towns, but into the locations, and their standard of commercial morality was so low that they were most undesirable people to have in the country. Feeling was so strong that no single Asiatic should be allowed into the country, and their trading should be restricted as much as possible.

referred to Asiatic history in the Transvaal, and pointed out that owing to these people being British subjects it was impossible for the old Government after 1881 to do anything to get rid of them. The matter had become most complicated, and at present Asiatics were a curse to the Transvaal. In 1899, they again flocked into the country in large numbers, talking advantage of the troublous times. They should be expelled. However, these men had their vested rights, which would have to be considered, and his constituents had expressed themselves as prepared to contribute to any compensation that might have to be paid these people.

said that speakers had mixed up the coolie labourer with the Arab trader, who was the person to be dealt with. He could not agree with some of the wild statements that had been made about these traders, and thought they had to look at the matter from a broad point of view. After all, they were British subjects, and their vested interests should be respected. In Natal they complained of their commercial morality, and their unsanitary way of trading. He thought that these people should be dealt with by a strong policy of the Government instead of being left to junior municipal officials.

said it was true that the question was important, and it was as difficult as it was important. The subject was one that not only concerned South Africa, but the whole of the Empire, and their difficulties sprang largely from this larger view which they had to take of this question. He thought there was only one way of dealing effectively with this question, and that was by stopping immigration; in the long run they would be able to grip the question that way. When the Asiatic was in this country, then the question assumed another aspect. Once the Asiatic was here they had other considerations entering into the question which had to be watched very carefully. This question was one of the most troublesome problems they had had to deal with. The Government had always been face to face with the fact that here they had Asiatics whom they could not treat like barbarians, for they belonged to an ancient civilisation, they knew how to defend their rights when attacked, and they were prepared to suffer in defence of what they considered their rights. They knew how to stand together and to protect their own rights. They were very clever indeed; many of them seemed to be men of high character, men of great intelligence, and they be longed to an organisation which was not merely strong in South Africa, but which was strong in England and in India. He thought that for this problem there was only one remedy, and that was to rigidly limit Asiatic immigration into South Africa. That was the policy of the Government One of the great mistakes which had been made in the past in South Africa was that in certain colonies at any rate that policy had not been followed. Before the war there was no restriction of Asiatio immigration into the Transvaal. In that way fairly large numbers of Asiatics came into the Transvaal. In Natal the policy had been adopted of developing the resources of that colony by means of imparted Asiatic labour, and of course not only imported Asiatics, but large numbers of others docked through the open door. The only part of South Africa that adopted a sane and far-sighted policy at the start was the Orange Free State. (Hear, hear.) They adopted, with their usual farsightedness, upon this question a policy which had eliminated this problem from that Province. Here in Cape Colony they had also had a las system, and even to-day the laws were such that it was not easy to keep an Asiatic out of the Cape Colony. He thought that for the future they had deliberately resolved that there must be a policy of restriction of Asiatic immigration. That policy had been announced, It had been communicated to the British Government, and correspondence he hoped would be laid on the table shortly which would show not only the policy taken up by this Government in regard to Asiatics, but the concurrence of the British Government in regard to that policy. The British Government understood now that it was the deliberate wish of South Africa that there should be no immigration of Asiatics into this country. But while they took up that position they recognised that a certain limited number of Asiatics should be allowed into South Africa That was a policy with which they had no fault to find. He thought if they limited the number of Asiatics that were allowed to enter the Union to a very small number it could not possibly affect the fortunes of the Union, and it would help in solving this problem in the long run. It had been suggested some time ago in regard to the Transvaal that they should allow six to come in each year; that, of course, was too small a number. He thought once they kept the Asiatic out of South Africa they would be on the road to a solution of this problem. After all, the number of Asiatics in South Africa was not so large. There was only one Province in which the numbers were very large, and even there he thought the position was by no means hopeless. In the other Provinces the number was comparatively small. Here in the Cape he believed it was about 10,000. In the Transvaal it had decreased, and he did not think it was now more than 7,000 or 8,000. The evil, therefore, so far as the number of Asiatics was concerned, was not so great. Well, now he came to the other side of the question, and the one which was specifically raised on; the petitions before the House, and that was the question of dealing with the Asiatics who were already in the country. In respect of these people, the petitioners asked that their licences should be restricted, and also that their movements should be restricted. With regard to the movements of Asiatics, the policy of the Government was that they wanted to restrict the Asiatics at present in South Africa to their particular Provinces. The Immigration Bill, which had been published, and which he should shortly introduce into that House, provided that Asiatics already in South Africa should be kept within their Provincial limits. (Hear, hear.) There was no doubt that there were more Asiatics in Natal than would continue to be there in the long run, if they were kept in Natal. But once they opened the door of South Africa to the number that were there, the situation became much more difficult, and, indeed, hopeless. They had announced to the British Government that that was their policy to restrict Asiatics to Provincial limits—and although it did not seem to be very generous policy, or one that was very liberal, yet it was the only one that was in consonance with the true interests of South Africa. Now he came to the other question of licensing. There was no doubt that in recent years the retail business had passed more and more into the hands of Asiatics in South Africa, and for many reasons. How was that to be met? Different policies had been followed in the different Provinces in regard to this point. In Natal the policy had been to have one licensing officer for the whole colony. The result of his vigilance was that there had been a considerable reduction in the number of licences. In the Cape Province the question of licensing had been left to toe local authorities, and he believed the local authorities here had also become more vigilant, and tried, wherever possible, to stem any undue inflation of these licences, in regard to the future policy on this question, it was difficult to say what it should be they could not ride roughshod over the interests of the large Indian and Asiatic population which they had got in South Africa. They could not simply ignore the interests which had grown up, and he did not think there was the slightest intention of that House to do so. But he thougt that measures would have to be devised to simplify and keep the evil within normal directions, not a policy of confiscation, but a watchful policy, which would see that business did not, in too large a proportion, pass into the hands of the Asiatic. Probably it would be necessary to pass measures on the subject. He did not think that there was at present, at any rate, much to be said for the suggestion which had been made there, viz., expropriation of Asiatic businesses in South Africa. He thought hon. members who had made that suggestion were not aware of the enormous magnitude of those interests already. He thought there were other remedies. A careful, vigilant administration of the law would go a long way to deal with the evil. The question, he thought, would have to be dealt with along those lines. In reference to what had fallen from the member for Victoria West, the question they had to remember was an old one in South africa, and had grown deeply into our body politic, and he did not think it was fair to come down with too heavy a hand on a Province like Natal, for instance. The mistake there was made long ago, about 40 years ago. It was a great hardship to punish the men of the present generation for an historic error which took place almost half a century ago. Therefore, he thought that they ought to extend their sympathy in the trouble which had now come upon them. No doubt the people of South Africa did not want indentured Asiatic labour. But in Natal they had a system upon which a great deal of capital had been spent. In the sugar industry alone there were about three millions of capital invested, and there was also the tea industry, all based upon this indentured labour. He thought, therefore, that the people of Natal were entitled to the sympathy of South Africa in the crisis in which they were placed. The Government of India had said that on July 1 they would stop this indentured Indian labour. They had not been consulted upon this, and they did not want to interfere with that decision. It would be very necessary to watch these interests, and to see that they were not tampered with as far as possible, and to see also that these great industries might not be too greatly jeopardised. He did not think it was fair to refer to those indentured coolies that would come up to July 1, because after that the matter would stop. Difficulties would arise which would be met by the country in a reasonable and fair spirit. He did not think it was necessary to say anything further. This was a very important matter, on which it was easy to make inflammatory sneeches. (Hear, hear.) He knew that people in South Africa were profoundly moved by these matters. They saw business passing out of the hands of Europeans and passing into the hands of Asiatics, who did not wish to make this country their home, and who simply wanted to pass out of the life of this country with the wealth they had accumulated. (Hear, hear.) This country could not contemplate that with equanimity, but he hoped they would look at the whole business in the generous spirit of the hon. member for Potchefstroom. The subject of Asiatic labour would provide one of the most useful discussions at the forthcoming Imperial Conference. It was not a party question, because the same policy would have to be carried out by whatever Government was in power, (Cheers.)

pointed out that Natal herself had taken a very deep interest in this question—so deep, in fact, that some fourteen years ago she had shown a tendency to limit the spread of the Asiatic trader throughout the colony. Unfortunately, the step she took was a good deal too late and they had the sorrow to see the European trader entirely superseded through the rural districts of Asiatics. But the mistake had been made of mixing two classes of Indians, that was to say, by mixing the class who came out simply as labourers and the class that came out as traders. The hon. member expressed his thanks to the Minister of the Interior for the sympathy with which he bad approached this question. There was no doubt that there had been a great deal of misunderstanding as to what had taken place in the past in Natal. The fact was: that since the legislation of 1895, it became almost impossible for an Indian to remain in Natal after his time was up, unless he re-indentured. So they found that this colonisation of Indians would practically have settled itself, even if the Indian and Union Government had not intervened. Natal, in coining into the Union, had had to sacrifice a, considerable source of revenue, and he hoped that the Government would see that the burden was made as light as possible. With regard to the trader. Natal was absolutely at one with, the rest of South Africa in dealing with this class of Asiatic.

The amendment was adopted, and the motion as amended was agreed to, as follows: “That all the petitions against further Asiatic immigration and praying that the trading rights and movement’s of Asiatics be restricted, presented to this House during the present session, be referred to the Government for consideration.”

moved that the Government be requested to consider the advisability af taking over the New Cape Central Railways. He said that the people of the South-western Districts were practically decided that it would be to the interests of the district that these railways should be taken over by the Government. A resolution to that effect was adopted by representatives from all parts of the district, and this was presented to the Commissioner of Railways at an interview which, he was sorry to say proved somewhat abortive. He hoped, however, that that rebuff was only temporary. In view of the position of the rail way revenue, he thought the Commissioner would be fully justified in bringing in a very extensive Railway Bill. An estimated loss of £274,000 had been incurred by the harbours, but he was glad that Mossel Bay, which was served by the New Cape Central Line, did not contribute towards that loss. The recent reduction of rates would react prejudicially on those districts served by the New Cape Central Line, especially Mossel Bay. The Cape Central Line was the only private railway which served a, farming district. Towards its construction the Cape Parliament voted £379,000 as a, subsidy. The section between Worcester and Ashton was paying very well indeed. The high rates seriously handicapped the development of the district. As compared with the rates prevailing on the Government railways, those on the New Cape Central were higher by the following amounts: Cement, 40 per cent.; deals, 133 per cent.; imported meal and bark, 110 per cent.; guano, 250 per cent; fresh fruit, 260 per cent.; fencing material, 400 per cent.; and wagon wood, 100 per cent. Then the first-class passenger rates were 70 per cent higher on the New Cape Central than they were on the Government railways. He did not blame the New Cape Central for charging these rates, as the line was a private one and it had assisted in the development of the district. During 1910 he was told that the company’s earnings had shown a very considerable increase. He felt confident that low rates would result in a very considerable increase in the traffic. The argument that the railways should be run on business principles he met by the contention that individual lines should not be judged singly, but as a whole. The longer the expropriation of the line was delayed, the greater would be the cost, and expropriation would have to take place eventually. One portion of the country, he urged, should not be treated disproportionately to the others. (Cheers.)

seconded.

said the hon. member had put forward as good a case as possible for the taking over of the railway. If they had the money to build all the necessary railways of the Union and something more, he would be glad to oblige his hon. friend (Mr. Vintcent). The first consideration was to have better means of communication in the country. (Hear, hear.) It was very easy to tell the farmers to produce more, and they would do so if they had the means of getting their produce to the markets; but if they did not have those means, more production was not only no gain, but an absolute loss. Although in the Union they had about 8,000 miles of railways, there were still parts of the country without a line, and parts which were capable of very great development. There were parts near Cape Town which were as, or almost as, productive as parts which had a railway line, and yet these did not have a railway. He readily admitted that the difference in the rates quoted by the hon. member was very great, but still they were very much lower than if they had been obliged to go by ox-wagon.

Not very much.)

continued: The district through which that line went had been very much developed since the construction of the line. His hon. friend might say that there would be even greater development if the rates were reduced; well, there would be some difference, but not so much as some of them might think. He was not in a position to say whether that line paid, but from what he did know, he did not believe that it paid full interest on the amount invested-—until quite recently. Undoubtedly the line was doing better and improving its position, and before very long might pay working expenses by their income. If the Government tariff were in force on that line the deficiency would be very much increased. As to the amount which would have to be paid for the line, that was a matter for arbitration, but the cost of that line had not been less than a million; and they would have to pay something considerably more than that. He went on to speak of the Government contemplating introducing a railway scheme during the present session, because it was of opinion that there were districts which needed construction of railways without further delay. They had only a certain amount of money available for that purpose—for giving further railway facilities and developing the country by means of railways—and he asked whether they were to take a part of that, sum for the purpose of acquiring a line already serving the South-western districts —although, perhaps, not to the best possible advantage—or take the whole of that sum and develop parts of the country which had no railways at all? He hoped that the majority of the House would take the view of that matter which the Government took; or that it should spend all that money on building new lines. He could, therefore, hold out no hope to the hon. member of the Government being prepared to accede to the request for the taking over of the railway line in question.

supported the motion, saying that, on principle, he was in favour of the State acquiring and working the lines within the Union. So far as he could learn, that line seemed to be wedged in between two Government lines, and so it seemed clear that it could be worked at a cheaper rate by the Government. His advice was that the Government should take over the line, for no country could progress unless it had railways. The Minister should not simply say that he could not do it; he should investigate, and lay the information before the House.

regretted the tenour of the Minister’s reply. He had always understood that the New Cape Central Railway would be taken over immediately after Union.

said that he had never said anything of the kind.

replied that people had drawn conclusions from a speech made by the Right Hon, the Prime Minister. Owing to the high tariffs South-western farmers could not compete with farmers in other parts of the country. Railway rates increased the price of Swellendam grain by 3s. a bag, and people had lately taken to ostrich farming, because the railway rates had killed grain-farmine. He realised the difficulty in which the Minister of Railways found himself, because there was a constant demand for new lines, but he trusted that expropriation would soon be possible.

said he hoped the Minister would accept the motion, and not only accept the motion, but, in the course of the next few years, adopt a different attitude to the one he had adopted that day. The Minister had only put forward one side of the question. They wanted new railways; they would never have enough in this country. He though that the South-western districts deserved a little more attention from the Government. He considered that it would be far better for the Government to take over the line at the present time, because as the districts which it touched became more prosperous, so the value of the line would increase. He pointed out the importance of the railway, saying that it should not be treated as a small branch line. Every day they put off action there would be an increase in the cost to the country in the end. Instead of lowering rates, let them purchase the line before it became too valuable.

said that he recognised the modesty of the motion; many districts had no railway at all, however, and the South western districts should console themselves with the reflection that it was better to have an expensive line than no line at all. Such as it was, the New Cape Central Railway had increased land values in the South-western districts, though he admitted that the high rates prevented their full development. He supported the motion, because he thought the Government should take over the line as soon as possible. At the same time, he trusted they would consider further rail way construction in less favoured districts, particularly in the North-west, and more especially in his own constituency.

regretted the Minister’s attitude, because he was of opinon that Government should both build new lines and take over existing ones. The Government Railways were making such huge profits that no private line should be allowed. He could not believe that the New Cape Central Railway was an unpayable line. Unless it was taken over quickly, they would have to pay a tall price for expropriation. He supported the motion.

supported the Minister. He could not agree to the railway surplus being used in order to saddle the Government with the running of an unpayable line. The railway surplus was due to, and should be spent on, the children of the North. Heavy railway rates were levied on the people of the North, and it would not do to make them pay indirectly for losses incurred in the South while they themselves still wanted a good many new lines.

replying on the debate, said he very much regretted that the Minister had decided to adopt this policy of drift. He certainly did not think the interests of the country justified the Minister in taking this unfortunaate view of the matter. At this stage, just when they had entered Union, he considered that it was most opportune, in view of the financial condition of the country, that the Minister should introduce a bold policy, and go in for getting all the railways in South Africa State-owned. (Hear, hear.) An hon. member had waxed warm upon this subject, but lot him tell him that the rate from Riversdale to Mossel Bay was 1s. 8d. per bag for mealies, while in the Transvaal they could get their mealies to the nearest port for 1s. per bag of 200 lb. (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Minister said that this railway would not pay, and he could only repeat what he said upon that point. If they had the South African Railway rates, then all he could say was that the line would pay just as well as any line that the Minister proposed to introduce in his Bill. (Hear, Dear.) He must say that he was seriously disappointed with the reply of the Hon. Minister, but he hoped that at some future time he would reconsider the question. He begged to withdraw his motion.

The motion was accordingly withdrawn.

moved that the petition from Richard W. Bailie and three others, praying for the grant to them in freehold of the farm Putterskraal, presented to the House on December 15. 1910, be referred to the Government for consideration. He said that this petition was put in by the descendants of Wm Bailie, who was killed in one of the numerous Kafir wars in 1836. The place of his death is commemorated by the spot Bailie’s Grave, near Queenstown. This petition was presented by Bailie’s grandchildren.

seconded the motion.

Agreed to.

for Mr. H. A. OLIVER (Kimberley), moved that the petition from E. J. Pavey, praying for compensation for the alleged loss sustained on ground appropriated by the Railway Department, presented to the House on the 9th inst., be referred to the Government for inquiry and report.

seconded the motion.

Agreed to.

moved: “That in the opinion of this House greater facilities than are afforded by the existing mining laws should be granted to bona-fide prospectors and small mine workers.”

seconded.

said be moved this in a spirit of confidence, because, in spite of the remarks that were sometimes made as to the value of election promises, he thought if there was one subject that received general approval it was this motion that he proposed now. So far as they were concerned on that side of the House, this proposal was upon their programme, and was in fact taken from the official programme of the party. Hon. members who sat on the cross-benohes were (likewise pledged to something very like this, and the Right Hon. the Prime Minister alluded to something of the same kind in his manifesto. He thought it was reasonable therefore to expect to receive the support of members on both sides of the House. They were here face to face with a rapidly increasing expenditure, and it was better, in his opinion, that they found revenue from other resources than by crippling their industries. He realised it would be a much easier question if they had had to deal with the Transvaal alone, but there were large settled districts in Cape Colony in which farming had been going on for many years, and consistent with that, he understood that it would be wrong to interfere with the sanctitiy of a man’s privacy on his farm. The hon. member, proceeding, referred to what had been done in the Transvaal in 1908. It had been urged then against the giving of great, facilities that it was impossible to allow men to go on people’s farms and allow these farms to be broken up. Besides, it was feared that disease might be carried by these means. They were also told that what they were seeking to do was but another sinister move of the capitalist. As a result of pressure, however, the law was altered, and greater facilities were given by the Gold Law of 1908 than had ever been given before. The hon. member went on to quote from the report of the Government Mining Engineer, which showed that these facilities had been largely taken advantage of. When the mining laws of the country were consolidated he hoped that the Transvaal laws would be taken as the foundation governing such matters in the Union. Cases had arisen in the Transvaal in which people deliberately had locked up their land, and bad said that they would not allow prospecting unless the prospector bought the whole of the farm, and that at a very large price. In many cases in which an owner had been requested to permit prospecting, he had refused to do so, and had got out of the obligation by turning cattle on to the land for three months. There was a further provision in the Transvaal Gold Law, under which, if Government were satisfied that minerals existed on certain land and bona fide prospecting operations were not being conducted, Government was allowed to enter and do the prospecting itself. That was not a very wise provision, for there was no reason why Government should embark on prospecting operations which the public would be only too pleased to do themselves. The question arose whether that law would be applicable to the other Provinces of the Union. He was going to risk the accusation that he was not going for enough, and he would suggest that the first notice which Government had to give now to an owner who refused to allow prospecting, be reduced from three months to one month and that Government should let it be known that it actively was going to put into force the clauses of this law. A knowledge that this section existed in the law had acted as a very considerable inducement to many of the large landowning companies in the Transvaal to throw open their farms for prospecting. He did not think the companies necessarily deserved very great credit for that, for it was good business for them, and the fact that they were doing so was testimony to the value of the law. There was another side of the question—that was the position of the prospector when he had found something. At present the prospector obtained a small reward in the shape of discoverers’ claims, and exemption from the payment of licence fees on a small number of the claims he pegged. The law should go further. The licence fees were 5s. per claim on private land, and 2s. 6d. per claim on Government, ground. An enormous amount of capital was eaten up by the payment of claim licences, and the result was that in many cases the whole of the capital of a syndicate was swallowed up. Government should give further facilities in this matter. It was surely worth while for Government to give up revenue temporarily in order to induce people to prospect, for if a discovery proved to be valuable, it meant the employment of men, and a source of revenue to Government at once, as in the Transvaal the principle had been adopted; that mining rights belonged to the State. He would not limit the exemption from the payment of claim licences to those cases in which the actual prospector was working the ground himself, as it would be better for the Government in the end not to discriminate in this matter between rich companies and poor prospectors. Another subject which undoubtedly pressed unduly on the owners of claims in the prospecting stage was the difficulty of obtaining transfer of the ground. The transfer fees on the first sale from the original owner should be remitted. The hon. member then moved the adjournment of the debate until Wednesday, March 15.

The motion for the adjournment of the dehate was agreed to.