from. Middelburg, Transvaal, praying that further Asiatic immigration be stepped.

similar petition from residents of Hoopstad.

similar petition from Ventersdorp.

from R. Brown, late Excise Surveyor.

from the Municipality of Bloemfontein, praying that further Asiatic immigration be stopped.

from I. M. Meredith, widow of W. C. Meredith, Education Department, Cape Colony.

praying for railway connection between Port St. John and Kokstad.

from Ventersdorp, praying that further Asiatic, immigration be stopped.

similar petition from inhabitants of Wolmaransstad.

similar petition from the Municipality of Wolmaransstad.

similar petition from the Chamber of Commerce, Lydenburg.

similar petition from the Municipality of Lydenburg.

Finance Accounts of the Cape, Natal, Transvaal, and Orange Free State, 1st July, 1909, to 30th May, 1910, with explanatory memorandum, by the Department of Finance.

On the motion of the MINISTER OF FINANCE, seconded by Mr. LOUW (Colesberg), these papers were referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts.

asked whether the Government’s attention had been called to a statement made in the daily press, to the effect that it was the intention of the Johannesburg Town Council to so alter its bye-laws as to exclude coloured men from skilled work; and, if so, whether the Government was prepared to state the view’s of the Government on the matter?

said the Government had no information on the subject.

asked whether the Government is aware of the serious delay which takes place in reference to obtaining the signature of the Governor-General to Government documents emanating from Natal, and to which his signature is necessary; and, if so, whether the Government will endeavour to obtain some amelioration in respect of the matter indicated?

replied that it was the intention of the Government, at an early date to introduce a Bill by which any delays in future will be prevented.

asked the Minister for Railways and Harbours whether the Government will take steps to provide separate third-class carriages on all Transvaal trains for white and coloured people?

was understood to reply that the question would be dealt with in the Railway Bill, which would be brought in this session.

asked whether any correspondence had taken place between the Government and the Indian Government, having reference to the stoppage of the emigration of indentured labour to Natal; and, if so, whether the Government was prepared to communicate to the House the nature of the correspondence for the information of members?

replied that no correspondence whatever had taken place between the Indian Government and this Government, haying reference to the subject of the emigration of Indian labour from India to Natal. The only communication which this Government had received was one from the Imperial Government, in which it was intimated that the Government of India, after full consideration, had decided to issue notice in April next prohibiting further indentured immigration into Natal from July 1 next. A statement to this effect was made at the opening of the Legislative Council in India on January 3, and it was explained to the Council that the Government’s decision had been taken in view of the fact that the divergence between the standpoint of the colonists and that of the Indians had caused an unsatisfactory position, and that Indians had no guarantee that, after the expiration of their indenture, they would be accepted by the Union Government as permanent citizens. In conveying this decision to the Union Government, the Secretary of State for the Colonies intimated that while His Majesty’s Government regretted any inconvenience which might be caused to South African interests, they felt that they must accept as adequate the reasons advanced by the Government of India for the exercise of the statutory powers which were vested in them of stopping emigration to Natal.

asked the Minister of Education whether it is a fact that in some Provinces concession railway tickets have been refused to teachers of Government schools, and, if so, whether, in view of the small salaries usually paid, he is prepared to take steps to again grant this privilege?

replied that concession railway tickets had not been refused to teachers who had produced certificates showing they were entitled to concessionary rates. He detailed the rates in operation according to the tariff hook.

asked the Minister of Finance what sum had been collected on account of the repatriation debts between December 51, 1910, and January 31, 1911; and what percentage of the instalment of 5 per cent., due on December 31, 1910, that sum represents?

said £1,950 principal, and £295 interest, had been collected on account of the Transvaal Province. This amount, however, did not represent the 5 per cent, instalment. The officers of his department were at work, and after certain adjustments had been made, it would be possible to issue warrants for the amounts due.

for Mr. M. ALEXANDER (Cape Town, Castle), asked the Minister of Lands: (1) Whether it is a fact that amended title deeds and deeds of grant, which were completed in the Surveyor-General’s office, Cape Town, in October and November last, and which were, during these months, despatched from the said office for the signatures of the Minister of Lands and the Governor-General, have not yet been returned to the said office for delivery to the land-owners; (2) whether he can assign any cause for the delay; and (5) whether the Government is prepared to take steps to expedite proceedings in these matters for the future?

said these deeds had been referred to the Governor-General, and for answer to the second query he would refer the hon. member to a previous question.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the Imperial Government and the Governments of certain of the British dominions and colonies have already taken measures to ascertain the opinion of the commercial bodies within their borders respecting the provisions of the Declaration of London, and its effects upon the commercial affairs of the Empire, in the event of a, naval war, the Ministry have taken any similar steps, and, if not, whether the Government will consider the advisability of doing so, having regard to the bearing of this instrument upon the seaborne supplies and trade of this country?

replied that the Government had no information as to the policy which the Imperial Government intends to pursue in respect of the ratification of the Declaration of London. The matter is on the agenda of the next Imperial Conference, and this Government will consider any action which should be taken in South Africa after the Imperial Government has stated its policy at the Conference. At the present, time a discussion of the Declaration may possibly be premature.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether it is the intention of the Government to supply the long-felt want of the large commercial and business community at Caledon by forthwith connecting the town of Caledon by telephone with the city of Cape Town, especially in view of the fact that representations have frequently been made to the Government on the subject?

replied that the matter would receive the earliest attention.

asked the Minister of Mines: Whether he was aware that since the elections a number of men had been discharged without notice from the mines at Roodepoort, for, it was believed, political reasons; whether he would cause inquiries to be made; and whether he would make provision against such summary dismissals in the new Mines Regulations Bill?

said he was not aware of the discharges to which reference had been made; inquiries were being made into the matter, and the Mines and Works Bill would not be the correct place for legislation regarding relations between employer and employee. If dismissals had taken place in contravention of the Industrial Disputes’ Prevention Act, steps would to taken under that Act.

for Mr. M. ALEXANDER (Cape Town, Castle), asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) Whether the Government is aware that the average suicide rate amongst the indentured Indians of Natal for the last six years is 500 per million inhabitants, and that this rate is twice at least as high as the suicide rate amongst, the free Indians of Natal and more than ten times as high as the average suicide rate in India; (2) whether the Government can explain the reasons for this high suicide rate; and (3) what steps, if any, the Government propose to take with a view to the reduction of such rate?

I have ascertained that the average number of indentured Indians who have committed suicide during the last six years is 21; the highest in any one year being 27. and the lowest 18. The average indentured population for the same period is over 40,000. I am unable to make any statements in regard to questions Nos. 2 and 3.

asked the Minister of Justice whether the Government is prepared to introduce legislation during the present session, making it impossible for pensions of Civil Servants of the Union to be attached at the suit of persons who become creditors after the date of such legislation.

It is not the intention of the Government to introduce any legislation of the nature referred to during the present session.

asked the Minister of Justice whether his attention had been drawn to the large number of cases of brutal outrage on white women by Kafirs, and whether he will (1) take immediate steps to increase the police force, especially in districts where whites are living in the vicinity of compounds, locations, or any other aggregations of Kafirs; and (2) urge upon all Judges the advisability of inflicting the utmost legal penalty in all cases of conviction of rape, whether consummated or attempted?

said his attention had been directed to the newspaper reports of assaults by natives on white women in the Reef area in the Transvaal. He had had the matter investigated, and was informed by the Commissioner of Police that the newspaper reports were exaggerated, and that the proportion of assaults was not much in excess of the proportion during the similar months of the preceding year. Further, the assaults had generally taken place in lonely areas away from the vicinity of compounds, locations, and other aggregations of natives, and in localities where it was not practicable to much increase the present police patrols. He did not propose to urge upon all Judges the advisability of inflicting the utmost legal penalty in all cases of conviction for rape or attempted rape, as he considered the doing of adequate justice was quite safe in the hands of the Judges.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether the Government will take the necessary steps to revive the arrangements for assisted immigration in the case of persons already settled in the country, who may wish to bring their families to live with them in South Africa?

The Government is favourably inclined to some such arrangement as is referred to in this question, and is now considering the matter.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether he will direct a report to be furnished to him on the business accommodation provided in the Post Office Buildings at Queen’s Town for the use of the public, and more particularly on the provision for the use of the post and telegraph officers in the performance of their duties?

said he hoped in the near future to improve matters.

asked the Minister of Finance what steps have been taken up to date by the Government with regard to the appointment of the Commission provided for under section 118 of the South Africa Act, 1909, and when it is expected that the said Commission will get to work?

said the chairman (Sir G. Murray) would not arrive for some time yet, but it was proposed to begin work early, and they could have the advice of Sir George later on.

asked the Minister of Defence whether the officers and men of His Majesty’s Forces receive increased pay whilst serving in South Africa, or on South African waters, and, if not, having regard for the lesser purchasing power of money in this country, whether he will place a sum on the next Estimates sufficient to cover the difference which exists between England and South Africa in this respect?

The Government has no official information in regard to the first portion of this question, and the answer to the second portion is in the negative.

asked the Minister of Defence whether, in view of the rapidly-increasing attacking strength of other European nations, the Government will instruct the Prime Minister, as our representative at the Imperial Conference, to support a comprehensive scheme of Empire defence, should such be discussed, and, if necessary, to take the initiative, regardless of its cost?

Should any such scheme be discussed at the Conference, it will receive the most careful consideration of this Government.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that certain English-speaking farmers in the neighbourhood of Holmdene Station suffered much damage through a fire caused by the railway in August, 1910 (2)) whether it is a fact, that they are not entitled to compensation; and (3) whether he is prepared to institute further inquiry into the matter?

said that he had ascertained that files had occurred in the district mentioned, but whether the people were entitled to compensation he could not tell. This was a difficult question to answer both here and in the Transvaal. Of course, he could only pay compensation as the law required. In many cases there was undoubtedly great hardship, and it was difficult, to determine what actually caused the fires.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether it is a fact that 400 tons of dynamite are at present stored on a hulk in Table Bay, and, if so, whether he will see that immediate steps are taken to remove this danger, and to prevent its recurrence?

One hundred and fifty tons of explosives from the wreck of S.S. Aotea were being stored in the explosives hulk in the Bay until The steamer which was expected to take the cargo on to Australia arrived next week. He was informed that the cargo had been stored with due regard to the interests of safety. He was having inquiries made as to the safest method of dealing with such cargoes in the future.

asked the Minister of Mines whether the Government will introduce legislation this session having for its object the prevention of any further assumption by a few individuals of the control of wealth and power, by moans of company amalgamation?

replied that if the hon. member referred to companies in the Transvaal, he saw no reason to interfere with amalgamations, so long as the provisions of the Transvaal Companies Law were complied with. It was not proposed at present to legislate on the subject.

I meant all company amalgamations, not necessarily Transvaal mines.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention has been directed to a proposal recently put forward by the board of directors of the East Rand Proprietary Mines, Ltd., under which certain favoured individuals, including the directors and the firms or financial corporations with which they are associated, are to be paid a commission of £75,000 in connection with a contemplated debenture issue by the company; (2) whether the directors before arranging to pay themselves this commission sought or invited competitive offers from bankers or other financiers, with a view to paying a less exorbitant rate of commission; and (3) whether in view of the methods pursued in the present case, and also in other cases, he will introduce legislation to amend the Company Law so as to prevent directors from using their fiduciary position for their own individual advantage, and to protect the interest of foreign investors?

(1) My attention has been directed to a proposal put forward recently by the management of the East Rand Proprietary Mines, Ltd., relating to an issue of £1,500,000 debentures. The proposal is that: (a) The whole is offered to the 13,000 existing shareholders at, 98 per cent.; (b) in the event, of the shareholders not taking up the debentures, certain corporations which have hitherto financed the company guarantee to take them up in certain proportions, in consideration of a commission of 5 per cent., which will be paid on fully paid up shares of the company. (2) I am not aware whether the company has sought or invited offers from bankers or other financiers before making the proposal. (3) The proper statutory notices to foreign shareholders, in terms of section 65 of Act, 31 of 1909 of the Transvaal, appear to have been given, and the meetings to consider and pass the necessary resolutions are fixed by the notices for January 18 and February 9, 1911, respectively. When the Government introduces legislation for consolidating and amending the Company Laws of the Union (as it hopes to do), it will carefully consider whether the provisions of the existing laws sufficiently safeguard shareholders in matters of this kind.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether, with a view of obtaining uniform treatment for the staff and daily-paid men of the harbours, he is prepared to consider the advisability of moving the House for the appointment of a Select Committee or a Commission to inquire into and report upon this matter?

replied that there was at present a Commission sitting whose object was to consider the pay and assimilate all pay in regard to the staff, both railway and harbour people, other than daily-paid men. With regard to the daily-paid men, a departmental inquiry was being made into their cases, and very soon they would be dealt with in connection with the whole question of assimilating their pay in different parts of the Union, both harbour and railway employees.

asked: (1 Whether the attention of the Government had been directed to the fact that Colonial wheat of the harvest of 1910 is at present being sold at 14s. 6d. per muid; and (2) whether the Government intend to increase the duty on imported wheat?

was understood to reply that wheat was being sold at Cape Town at 17s. a muid, the price being regulated by the price of Australian wheat The matter of the import duty on wheat, was receiving the serious attention of the Government, so that Colonial industries might receive every encouragement.

asked: (1) What amount by way of percentage or otherwise has been partially or wholly remitted to Transvaal repatriation debtors with regard to (a) rations, (b) live-stock, and (c) material; (2) what extension of time was granted to the said debtors; and what is the difference in conditions and circumstances between the Transvaal and Orange Free State, why equal treatment of said debtor’s in the above-mentioned Provinces cannot take place?

replied that there had been no remissions as far as rations and material were concerned, but there had been a remission of 25 per cent, in regard to live-stock. In regard to the second part of the question, he would refer the hon. member to Government Notice 86 of January 17, 1911, where the information asked for was fully set forth. As to differences of treatment in the various Provinces, the hon. member would find mention made of the different conditions in the reports of the various Government Commissions which had dealt with these subjects.

asked the Minister of Justice whether the Government will at once cause steps to be taken rendering unnecessary the authentication of documents executed in one Province for use in any of the other Provinces of the Union?

replied that it was proposed to introduce a Bill during the coming session of Parliament removing disabilities in regard to the authentication of documents.

asked the Minister of Education whether the Government will take into consideration the desirability of placing a sum on next year’s Estimates, for the purpose of restoring to teachers, in the Cape Province, the 15 per cent, bonus taken away from them in 1908?

replied that the 15 per cent, bonus had been a temporary measure to meet the difficult times which had existed. The permanent increases of salary which had now been given had, in almost all instances, been equal, or had came to more than the temporary bonuses.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the railway servants resident, in the suburbs of Durban are entitled to certain reduced season or privilege tickets for travelling on the railway; (2) whether similar concessions are granted to railway servants employed at the Bluff for travelling on the Ferry between the Point and the Bluff; and, if not, (3) whether the Government will favourably consider the advisability of granting such facilities?

replied to the first question in the affirmative. As to the second question, he said that the Government did not provide concessions over private ferries. The matter of uniformity was now under consideration.

asked the Minister of Public Works whether his attention had been called to the fact that, the sub-contractor for the New Law Courts has recently imported a number of mechanics under contract, to the detriment of local workmen?

My attention has been called to the fact that the contractor for the New Law Courts, Cape Town, imported mechanics under contract, but I am not aware that this was detrimental to local workmen. The contractor advertised in six South African newspapers, three insertions in each, for 20 first-class granite-cutters, and only eight men were obtained. He had then to import twelve men for nine months’ service at the local standard rates of wages.

for Mr. M. ALEXANDER (Cape Town, Castle), asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the remaining twenty men of the Cape Government Railways Local Audit Office have been transferred to Johannesburg; (2) whether the transfer will involve an extra cost to the Union of a considerable amount per annum; (3) whether the transfer of the whole of the Cape Government Railways Chief Accountant’s staff to Johannesburg involves an extra cost to the Union of, roughly, £12,000 per annum in local allowances alone, namely, two hundred men at £60 per head; and (4) whether the Government will take into serious consideration the extra cost involved?

replied that twenty men of the railways local audit office had been transferred. In regard to the rest of the question, he was understood to say that he did not see any need to go into the matter of extra cost, and so on, as the question of the administrative capital and the legislative capital had been settled by Parliament.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the booking fee penalty is still in force on the South African Railways, and if so, whether he will consider the desirability of abolishing it forthwith?

said that with regard to the question of the hon. member for Liesbeek, he might tell him it is not the intention of the Government to abolish the booking fee. He himself, though Commissioner of Railways, had been obliged to pay the fee when he had travelled without his ticket. He fancied that his hon. friend had suffered in the same way. (Laughter.)

asked the Minister of Lands with regard to the Kopjes Waterworks in the district of Heilbron: (1) How many morgen of ground on the upper side of the dam, at present being constructed, have been expropriated by the Government, under Act No. 31 of 1909 (Orange Free State), and how much was paid per morgen; (2) has the Government placed a fixed price on ground thus expropriated, and, if so, what price; and (3) does the Government intend to grant to farmers, whose farms, to their great inconvenience, are divided into two by reason of the rising of the water, such facilities as will enable them to retain the undisturbed use of their ground?

No ground on the upper side of the dam at Kopjes has at present been expropriated under Act No. 31 of 1909 (Orange Free State), and Government has, therefore, placed no price upon such land. The following farms were, however, bought by private treaty by the late Orange Free State Government, situated above the Kopjes dam: Gibbons, No. 44, district Heilbron; area, 400 morgen; purchase price, £1,000; purchased from G. A. Roodt. Rietmond, No. 714, district Heilbron; area, 437 morgen 156 sq. roods; purchase price, £1,092 18s.; purchased from J. D. Roodt. Watwal. No. 244, district Heilbron; area. 546 morgen 345 sq. roods; purchase price. £1,366 4s.; purchased from Willem Griesel. Approximately, half of this farm is situated up-stream of the dam. With regard to the question of providing facilities of access, where the reservoir has caused separation of part of the same property, this matter is under the consideration of the Government.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether his attention had been called to the refusal of the manager of the Turf Mines to allow a representative of the Miners’ Association to be present at the underground inquiry, held on December 15, 1910, into the circumstances whereby J. McDonald, a miner, was killed; and, if so, (2) whether he will make early provision to allow such representation at all inquiries of this nature?

I have been acquainted with the circumstances of the case, and it would appear that although the general secretary of the Miners’ Association was not allowed by the management of the mine to proceed underground, a representative appointed by the friends of the deceased was granted this facility, and attended the inquiry throughout. Under the new regulations shortly to be brought into force, it is provided that, any person concerned in a mining accident may attend the inquiry, or appoint a representative to do so for him, and that, in case he is unable to appoint such representative, owing to death or serious injury, his relatives or his fellow-workmen may appoint such representative.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether he does not consider that the time has arrived when the distance for the delivery of telegrams without, extra charge should be extended; and (2) whether he has any intention of making uniform the charges for telephones in the various Provinces.

It has recently been arranged for telegrams throughout the Union to be delivered free of charge within the area covered by the delivery of letters. This arrangement extends the free delivery in numerous places. At the smaller towns, where there is no delivery by postmen, telegrams are delivered free within a mile of the Post Office. The matter of introducing uniform charges for telephones in the various Provinces is receiving attention. Uniform rates will, however, involve very considerable financial disturbances, the effect of which will require to be carefully gone into.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether the recent act of clemency extended to prisoners at the time of the Union is applied in the same manner in all Provinces; and if not, (2) whether he will take steps in order to ensure that the most favourable treatment which has been meted out under the regulations in any of the Provinces shall be applied in all?

replied that clemency was applied strictly according to the laws in the different Provinces. Secondly, he could not necessarily apply clemency to all the Provinces if it had been applied in one.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether under the new tariff the old rate for South African perishables including butter sent by passenger train under clause 89 of the old tariff, has been done away with; (2) whether the half-parcels rate for such perishables must now be paid under the new tariff, in order to enable them to be sent by passenger train; (3) whether such rate is not more than three times the old rate under clause 89; and (4) whether, in view of the detrimental effect the new tariff is likely to have on South African industries, the Government is prepared to take unto consideration the desirability of placing butter on the old tariff rate?

said that in dealing with the rate recently, it was suggested that there should be a slight alteration in the butter rate. It was proposed that there should be an increase on the ordinary trains, but a reduced rate on goods trains, because it was intended to provide suitable carriages for butter. Owing to some omission or misunderstanding, effect was only partly given to what was intended. So as not to prejudice the butter producers, who, he was happy to say, were continually increasing their output, the original rate was being enforced for some time, and he did not think it was likely or that it would be acceptable to adopt a rate that would place butter producers in a worse position than at present. His reply to the second part of the question was in the negative. Regarding the third, that was a matter that was under consideration.

moved that the Order of the House, adopted on the 6th December, 1910, for evening sittings on Thursdays, be discharged.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the South African College Acts of the late Colony of the Cape of Good Hope. Nos. 15 of 1878 and 10 of 1904.

seconded.

Leave was granted, and on the motion of Mr. JAGGER, the Bill was read for the first time.

moved that in the opinion of this House; (1) The widening of the field of employment for the white population is essential to the well-being of this Union; (2) the continued importation of alien native labourers from territories beyond its borders is undesirable, in that it tends to narrow the field of white employment; and (3) a commencement should at, once be made to curtail such importation by prohibiting the entry into the Union of natives recruited in territories situated north of the 22nd degree of south latitude. He said they in the Labour party looked upon the consideration and proper determination of this question as of more vita importance to the white population of the Union than any other. He wanted first of all to explain to hon. members what they meant by widening the field of employment for whites. They desired to see the white people of this country enter into every kind of social occupation, and take part in every productive enterprise. Part, of the motion embodied one of the principal planks of the Labour party, and that was a white labour policy. If he might judge from the controversy which had been carried on for some time, the most consistent, logical, and forceful opposition would come from those who regarded the proper relation of the two races of this country as being the white people to be the aristocracy more or less, and their functions to control and exploit the large mass of native labour in this country. They believed that the best demarcation of the functions of the two races had been laid down by God, and that it was so direct that, the national policy might be directed by it. They (the Labour party) believed the direct opposite, and he could not do better than present the argument by which they wished to represent the motion before the House. The conception of the relation of the two races he had mentioned was not the policy that should guide the nation. The tradition was so deeply rooted in them—the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) give utterance to it before this session opened—that he would ask hon. members to try and trace in this sentiment which so largely coloured all their industrial practices and all political and social practices, and see where it originated. He did not think Van Riebeek brought it out with him. He thought they could say it originated after that, because from early in the history of this small colony they heard the first mutterings of this labour question, and which had been with them ever since. They heard the cry to Europe that they should send more colonists for them, but those wise counsels were set aside, and they decided to send more slaves. The slave ideal existed to-day, and could! be found throughout the whole of our industrial practice. It found expression in all the laws affecting the native question in this country, and also in the Kimberley compound law. It also had created the delusion that we could not develop the resources of this country by our own labour, but must depend for our prosperity on the work of another race held in a state of servitude. It found expression in coolie labour in Natal, and the importation of Chinese into the Transvaal. The aristocratic ideal was nothing whatever but an endeavour to apply the old slave ideal with some sort of respect to the views of the twentieth century. It might be said that this state of affairs had done well enough up to now. He asked hon. members to regard this question without prejudice, and to consider whether it was not in the natural order of things that the first questioning on the subject should come from the industrial centres, and from the representatives of the men who did the manual work among the white population. He wished to show what had been the effects of the policy adopted in the past. Those who read the report of the Indigency Commission could not help being struck by the fact that the Commission attributed the growth of the poor white class to the operation of the delusion, and other traditions, engendered in the idea that there was some degradation in a white man doing honest manual work which happened to be for another, or of a laborious kind. Kimberley (proceeded Mr. Creswell) was a bye-word throughout. South Africa as one of those places which had been. At Kimberley as few white men as possible were employed on the mines, and the town population depended on the spending power of the former, and on the picking up of the crumbs which fell from a rich corporation’s table. The Rand was going the same way as Kimberley—every sign pointed to it. In the early days of the Rand there was a large number of individual companies which gradually became amalgamated into large groups, and gradually these groups were coming more and more under one central control, until they would have the whole of the Rand just as much under one financial corporation as Kimberley was under the heel of De Beers. (Hear, hear.) Hon. members might say that there was a tremendous difference between Kimberley and the Rand, because the output of diamonds must be controlled. The lines on which Kimberley had developed were due to the fact that, there was no counterbalancing force whatever, because on the one side there was the power of the purse, and on the other a great mass of labour under indenture. They could see where the tendencies were. For the six months ended June, 1908, the wages income of the white mining population on the Rand was at the rate of £600,000 a year less than it had been two years previously, while for the same period the wages income of the natives was £500,000 more. That clearly showed that there was the same tendency for the white man to be less and less necessary to the employer, with the inevitable result that the white man was going to get less and less of the wealth produced. Since the period he had mentioned, he expected that the Minister of the Interior would tell them that things had vastly improved, but he (Mr. Creswell) maintained that the Rand had been going through the last stage of the transformation already gone through by Kimberley. All the amalgamations and reorganisations which had taken place, had been attended with the expenditure of vast capital sums, upon which the Witwatersrand had, to a large extent, been living for the last two years, but when that expenditure came to an end all the tendencies to which he had referred would still continue. Without fear, he would say that unless proper measures were taken, the Witwatersrand would go the way of Kimberley, and would be looked upon as one of the “has beens” of South Africa. He would ask hon. members, taking this broad outline of the history of their development, whether, when they saw centres of activity springing up in other countries and promising to be centres around which vigorous and prosperous populations would gather, supported by the tremendous wealth produced, and when they saw promises of the same taking place here being thwarted, if was not enough to inspire doubt as to the soundness of those ideals upon which their development had proceeded up to now? In that broad outline they claimed that when they examined carefully the working of those ideals in their effect upon the white working population of the country, that doubt, amounted to an absolute certainty—that the principles upon which they had been proceeding were wrong in fact, and not based upon a correct appreciation of the conditions which governed the industry, and that the promise of the growth of the South African nation, and promised destiny, would never be fulfilled. Now, they held that when any tendencies threatened those who actually did the work of the country and who, by their bone and muscle, developed the resources of the country, they were bound ultimately to react and go right through the whole white races of this country. Proceeding, Mr. Creswelll referred to the Transvaal Indigency Commission, which he said inquired very closely into what was the reason of the manufacture of poor whites. The Commission’s diagnosis of the disease was characterised by a boldness and exactness which he could not too highly commend, and it stood out in contrast to the lack of any kind of determination with which it thought fit, having acurately diagnosed the disease, to prescribe for it. In the matter of prescription, the Commission shirked, but in the matter of diagnosis it certainly did a good service to the country. The speaker went on to quote passages from the Commission’s report to show that there had never been a regular scale of payment for unskilled labour, and that when the white man did unskilled labour he was paid according to the Kafir’s standard of work, which was barely sufficient to keep body and soul together; and that the virtual closing of the unskilled labour market to the white man was a fact of the utmost importance. He disagreed that the whole of the evil was due to the objection on the part of the white man to do unskilled labour. Given a sufficient inducement, and wages upon which he could earn a decent living, the white man was quite willing to do unskilled labour. Referring to the Kafirs and coloured people who had entered the field of skilled! labour, and the statement of the Commission that there would not be sufficient skilled labour for the future generations to do, he said that that was a pretty serious state of affairs. Continuing, Mr. Creswell said that he would like to deal with the way in which the displacement and ousting of the white man had taken place. It was not, as a rule, a direct ousting. It was, of course, difficult to point to any white man Who had been turned out of his job, and a native put in his place. He instanced the mining industry. Fourteen or fifteen years ago, he said they would find, if they went underground on the Witwatersrand mines and proceeded to the end of the tunnel, one white man at work, and at another place another white man. To-day, however, if they went down the same mines and proceeded to three or four places, they would only find one white man. Now, how had that change come about? In those days a white man did certain work and was assisted by a couple of natives. After a short while the natives became fairly efficient, and did most of the work. The white man became a sort of superviser, and looked after two or three places, being promised more money. The next step was that the white man’s wage came down to the same level as it was when he did one man’s work, and the result to-day was that one white man was doing what three or four white men did formerly at the old standard of wage. Up to the strike on the Witwatersrand in 1907, the wages of the white men employed in actual mining work had crept up. In June of that year there were 4,058 white skilled miners working underground on the Witwatersrand, and the daily wage of these miners amounted to £5,779. In the next six months, however, although the amount of rock turned out was increased by one-eighth, there were 120 fewer white men, and the daily wage earned by, and distributed amongst, those employed was £1,200 a day less. Since then there had been a tendency to rise. New sources of native labour, which required more supervision than the coolies who had gone away, and which was getting more supervision than it would require in seven or eight years’ time, had been tapped. Thus the tendency which they could see in the figures which he had quoted to the House. They claimed that if this tendency was allowed to proceed, it would simply mean that the young men of this country—the future generation of this country—would have three alternatives before them in meeting their responsibilities in the future. They would have the alternative of being one among the lucky few for which jobs could be found, the alternative of clearing out of this country to a country that offered more opportunities for white men, and, finally, the alternative of stopping in this country and gradually being reduced to working for a wage and on a standard which they presently associated with the Kafir. He came to those conclusions on the reports of the Transvaal Indigency and Mining Commissions, and the data that had been supplied. On that evidence, no other prospects were held out to the youth of this country. He went on to deal at length with the effect of this tendency on agriculture and business. Could they imagine the tremendous effect and stimulation on business if Kimberley had been a real Kimberley, with the greater part of the work being done by free white men, instead of imprisoned natives! It should have been a great centre; and he claimed that the wages earned by free white men would have done a tremendous amount of good in stimulating trade through the whole of the country. He went on to compare Johannesburg of to-day with the Johannesburg of the two-years’ period, 1906 to 1908. Would any hon. member on that side of the House deny that the lessening of the amount paid in wages had not made a vast difference to the commercial community of the country? Did the reduction not mean a lot to commerce and trade in South Africa? Then there was all this talk of attracting capital to the country. The establishment of the coal industry in the North of England had not resulted in a gradual decline in wages, as had happened at Kimberley. No, other spheres of activity arose. He thought the hon. member for Cape Town would be particularly interested in the figures if the same effect took place—the same decrease in the spending power of the white people of the Witwatersrand—as had taken place in Kimberley. He would be charmed to hear the figures of his hon. friend who sat next to him. He made bold to say that Kimbesley was a bye-word in South Africa as a place which had been a place of great promise, but was now a place which all enterprising spirits had left. It had also the reputation of being a place which was not merely under the control and under the domination of a great financial corporation, but a place where a man could not call his soul his own. The hon. member wondered whether his hon. friend would support a commission to inquire into the development of Kimberley.

Certainly.

Then I shall move for one at an early date. Continuing, he asked hon. members interested in agriculture what a dwindling Johannesburg market would mean to them? What would happen if the proportion of whites and blacks at present existing were reversed? He asked them to reflect and co-operate with him in his efforts to bring about a better state of affairs. Let them imagine as few whites as those corporations could do with, and just as few merchants as these whites could support. That was the tendency at the present day. He also asked lion, members to reflect on the effect all this would have on the morale of our race in South Africa, for he associated the well-being of the white people of this country with the well-being of the South African nation. If the white people went, even the hon. member for Tembuland would admit that he would be able to effect very little in the way of civilising the native races. Their duty in this country was to maintain the traditions, the morale, and the virility of their race. The present system would have a contrary effect, and this was why they called the attention of the House to this grave question. Of course, he would be told, “All you say is very true, but this has not, never has been, and never will be, a white man’s country.” Those people pointed out that the natives outnumbered the whites by four to one. But let them consider the position in 1652. and they woulld see that the proportion had come down to four to one from larger figures. And he maintained that if they went the right way to work they would make this as great a white man’s country as any other in the world where the white lace had established itself. But they must have as sturdy a race in the second and third generations as they had in the first. South Africa fulfilled that condition, and therefore he said that it could be made a white man’s country. This tremendous mass of native labour which was pressing so heavily on the white working population on the Witwatersrand did not come there naturally. He would leave it to subsequent speakers to develop other points, but he wished to point out the far-reaching effect which this twentieth century slave system—temporal slave system—had on the country’s industries. What would be said if they went to Canada or the United States and suggested the importation of labour under the conditions which applied to the indentured labourers in Natal? It surprised him to hear the Government’s declaration some time ago that it was proposed to develop on these lines every available source of African supply. What difference was there between importing large masses of Mozambique natives and importing coolies oversea? In their economical and social results there could be no distinction between the two. The pursuit of this policy must lead to one thing, and one thing only— the strangling of the South African nation in if birth. Some of the hon. members of lofty intelligence who sat upon the front Opposition benches would ask what this wild Labour party meant to do? Well, they were most modest in their requests. Commission after Commission had proved the evil tendency of the present policy, and what the Labour party asked was that the Government should reverse that policy, and should take the first steps in the re versal of that policy at once. At all events, it seemed clear to them that the importation of native labour from outside the Union should be put a stop to. By that means they would be limiting the great problem they had to face to the natives themselves within the borders of the Union. They did not ask that that should be done immediately, in one fell swoop. They asked that it should be done by the same process by which the Government put an end to Chinese labour—that it should be done in the course of two or three years. They were told by some people that there was no need to take these measures, because these tendencies which be had pointed out would wear themselves out without any steps being taken at all. That was a fallacy; it was controverted by facts. He remembered an occasion about three years ago when unemployment was acute, and when the then Colonial Secretary of the Transvaal appealed to the patriotism of the mineowners to find employment for unskilled whites. The result was that men were taken on at absurd rates of wages, and under absurd conditions. It was little less for them than a choice between starving and working, and starving without working. That, too, was a purely temporary measure; the figures showed that there had been no improvement in the matter of the employment of unskilled white labour on the Rand. The Labour party contended that the system now in operation was altogether wrong. They contended that the remedy was to stop the importation of alien native labourers from beyond the borders, and that a proper place to begin was by prohibiting the entry of natives recruited in territories north of the 22nd degree of south latitude. They should take these measures not only out of regard for their duty to humanity, but out of regard for their reputation among the nations of the world. Proceeding, the lion, member said he wanted to point out one of the broad effects of reducing the white man’s wages to the level of a Kafir’s, so that the white man could not maintain himself in an inadequate scale of civilisation. Let hon. members ask themselves what greater incentive to miscegenation there could be than by making it impossible for a white man to maintain a white woman in a proper manner. How could a man maintain a woman at 3s. 4d. per day? They made no provision at all in this country, as they did in Australia, to welcome white settlers, and to keep the races pure. Here there was actually an incentive to produce half-caste children, and their attempts to deal with such a problem by small enactments prohibiting marriages between white men and coloured women would be of little avail. Dealing with the objections to the motion, the hon. member referred to that hoary old friend—the dislocation of the mining industry. It was the same argument that had been used to justify the importation of the Chinese. The hon. member for Pretoria East (Sir Percy Fitzpatrick), speaking before the Commission in 1903, for a group of mines in which he was interested, stated that their development was falling behind, and yet they saw that this particular group of mines had increased its returns. So that if they came down to hard-boiled questions of fact, they would find that, there was no truth at all behind the statements. That august body, the Chamber of Mines, had stated that unless cheap labour were obtained, 3,145 stamps would be hung up, and £11,000,000 would be lying idle, and the working-men, to whom they always posed as being the real guardian and friend, and for whose welfare they were so anxious, they would have to dismiss 6,405 of them. Then they would be told that the credit of the country would suffer. The industry would be painted as one of those tender, sensitive plants that they must not touch, or a branch would break, ff they examined the figures of that industry, they would see that it was one of the most opulent in the world. Hitherto that industry had been bounty-fed; they had turned the Minister for Native Affairs into the chief recruiting agent for mine employers. They had gone to all sorts of expense to country-feed this industry. The industry did not want any cheap labour more than any other industry in the world. Another objection raised was that if they took this course, they diminished the supply of native labour available to the farmers, That was one of the arguments which generally emanated from that band of farmers who were to be found near the Corner House in Johannesburg. (Laughter.) During the time of the Chinese importation, were the energies of the mines relaxed in getting native labour?

They were.

The hon. member for Yeoville. (Mr. Lionel Phillips) says they were I never heard that they were. Proceeding, he said that if they took the course he was advocating, it would be a warning to the mining industry that the time had come when they must place themselves on a more civilised line, and they must be told that they had got to use free labour, and that they were coming to an end of their quasi-servile labour. The ultimate effect would be to bring native labour to its own centre in its own way. Now he came to two objections which were also put up, one by the right hon. the leader of the Opposition, in a speech which he give in Johannesburg, in which he told them that the effect of this white-labour policy would be to reduce the wages of the white men employed on the mines. He could not congratulate the front bench on this line of reasoning of their leader, whom he was sorry not to see in his place. It was the first time he had ever heard of any school of political economists propounding the doctrine that by making people more dependent upon a particular class of labour they were going to diminish the value of that labour. It had been clearly shown that it, would have no such effect. The whole idea was based on this delusion, that a white man was going to learn a skilled trade in; order to make a present of that skill to his employer, and to ask for the wages of an unskilled man. The free white working-man was going to be just as jealous of the standard wages of any craft that he acquired skill enough to join as the oldest hand among them. Then they were told that it would merely result in the scum of Europe coming here. Under the conditions that they laid down, they said they did not want any shiploads of indentured white labour brought here. They wanted free labour to come here, attracted by the wages offered in this country. They saw no reason to justify the assertion that the scum of Europe would come here; but, so far from that, they said that the best and most enterprising spirits would come out,. Then they were asked what they would do with the native labour that they had? Were the Portuguese labourers our natives; were the Central African natives our natives? Ultimately they said it seemed to them that a clear line of policy could be pursued, and, instead of the natives being shovelled into our centres of population, the efforts of the State should be to endeavour, as far as possible, to build up the natives in their own territories under laws suitable for them. So the white population should be built up in their own areas under suitable laws. He would ask the hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. T. Schreiner)—who took a profound interest in the natives—had he ever investigated what resulted from herding these natives in huge aggregations in Johannesburg and on the Rand? Had he read the report of the Law Department of the Tranavaal, and the comments made by the nead of the Criminal Investigation Department as to the increase of native criminals? Again, was it fair to the natives that they should be sent to the Rand under Conditions which did not enable them to exercise the prudent consideration for their own welfare that a white man could? If an accident happened on a mine, and a native thought it was not safe, he was not free to leave that, mine and seek other employ. The present system was gradually breeding race-hatred between white and black. Finally, he would remark that he knew that on the part of hon. members opposite there was a fear of too rapid immigration. They feared that those who came in would not share with them those national aspirations that they had. It was, he would toll them, the working-classes of any country who were tied down for good; they were permanent residents in the country. Hon. members opposite need not be afraid that this policy would result in an overwhelming tide of immigration. He would ask hon. members on that side to divest their minds absolutely of any prejudice of that kind. Proceeding, Mr. Creswell quoted figures with a view of showing that the death-rate among natives employed on the mines had not decreased within recent years. It was an appalling record of mortality, and it was in relation to carefully and medically selected adult, natives. It was a perfect disgrace and scandal to this Union. He was perfectly aware he had dealt inadequately with what was a great subject He hoped hon. members would discuss it as it deserved to be discussed, and hoped the Government would give every facility for its thorough consideration. They, on the cross-benches, were convinced that the logical facts were on their side. They were convinced that though this House might not though he hoped it would, consent to affirm the motion, still, they would come at no distant date, when the first steps would be taken to carry out the policy he had laid before the House. (Hear, hear.)

seconded the motion.

said he would not like the opportunity to pass without drawing the attention of the House to portions of the Indigency Commission’s report, to which the last speaker referred, because he held the opinion that this was one of the most important subjects that could possibly occupy the attention and time, of the House. He knew of nothing yet that had been, or was likely to be, before them of more importance than this subject, because it must be remembered that whatever the opinion of the House now with regard to this question, the motion in itself was only the first step towards the advocacy of a policy which would go a very great deal further than this went. The returns which had been given to them, and which, by-the-bye, had been disputed, regarding the disadvantages attending the importation of Portuguese natives, had weight, and would have weight. But they would go on from one point to another, until the policy advocated was that native recruiting for the mines shall be stopped altogether. (A VOICE: “No.”) Well, not very long ago, in a report published, it was laid down in the clearest possible manner by that Commission, that the importation of natives should go on until a given period of three years, and then stop altogether. He did not want to misrepresent what Mr. Creswell had said, but he was sadly wrong if it was not his idea to push out altogether the natives now at work on the mines. The Indigency Commission’s report was a valuable one. It occupied a place, obscure he was afraid, with many more costly and valuable Bluebooks, hidden away on shelves in this House and other places. It was a thousand pities these Blue-books were not more carefully read and studied, because whatever the House might say of the cost of the Commissions, so far as his knowledge went, they did manage to get together a very great deal of valuable information. Further, the Transvaal Indigency Commission did go into this subject most carefully. He did not wish to say a word that might be misconstrued, because, as the last speaker had said, it was too important a matter to try and quibble over, and try and score over any member. It was of vital importance, and worthy of the best attention the House could give it. The last speaker, after stating to the House that the Indigency Commission, up to a point was very good—he understood he agreed entirely with the diagnoses of the causes laid down there, and then he said when they came to suggest remedies they failed utterly; they were timid. Well, he (Mr. Quinn) was a member of that Commission, and spent a good part of two years going about the country considering the question and nothing else. They were willingly and materially assisted by every Government in South Africa. They travelled about because sometimes things seen are mightier than things heard. They were not timid on that Commission, but they were extremely cautious. (Laughter.) There was all the difference in the world between timidity and caution. (Hear, hear.) They felt, and he knew that they were dealing with something that demanded caution; they fully appreciated the responsibility that rested on them. It was seen that they might easily say something that might be used in the House, and which might do harm instead of good, and, therefore, they were cautious. But they said a number of things which were very plain, and which had been referred to by Mr. Creswell. As the House would remember, he certainly scored by comparing the speeches of hon. members in the House with speeches made by hon. members before. That was very easy, but every man who had tried to move forward with the conditions of this country had more or less changed his ground, or had become a back-number. He wanted the House to note some of the things the Indigency Commission said on this very subject, but to which he (Mr. Creswell) had made no reference whatsoever; things, matters, causes, which in the opinion of that Commission went right to the very root of the matter. The clauses were too long, but the marginal notes give the sense, and he would read them. He was going straight to the point of what the Commission believed to be the cause of the inability, or rather the unwillingness, of the unskilled white labourer to take his part and compete with the unskilled coloured labourer. Two years on that Commission had convinced him on that point.

I must remind the hon. member he is misquoting.

I am very sorry if I am misquoting the hon. member, but he will be able to correct it afterwards. Proceeding, he said they came to this conclusion. And they set it down in the plainest possible manner: that any men of their colour could, if they would, beat the coloured man, or he would rather say, the Kafir, at unskilled work. That was the conclusion they came to. In Port Elizabeth they found men earning a living at it, but he remembered at Johannesburg, after the war, when the towns were packed with poor needy Dutchmen, who had come in from the farms—most abject objects of misery. The Town Council put these men at work on the roads, and paid them at the same rate as Kafirs, and they did the work better than Kafirs. These men could do the work if they wished. The Indigency Commission had reported that the cause of indigency among whites was due to the prejudice of white men against manual labour, the inefficiency of white men, and the high wages they required. The Commission expressed the opinion that the inefficiency of the white man was his own fault, and that the high scale of white wages was due in part to the high cost of living, and also to the South African standard of living being very much higher than the English standard. It was not the case, proceeded Mr. Quinn, that the white man could not compete with the native, but he would not. He (Mr. Quinn) had no ill-feeling towards the natives, but he would push the interests of the white man first; at the same time be had very strong feelings about the interests of the other section of the population. He was an employer of labour, and his trouble was that he could not get white men to work for a wage which would enable him to dismiss natives and substitute white men for them. He could not say that the wage would not be a living one, but it was not the whites’ idea of a living wage. If unskilled whites said they must have 15s. a day, and there were certain classes of work for which it was impossible to pay that, either the labour was not done, or it was done by cheaper men. It was impossible to pay white men for unskilled work now done by coloured men the rate of pay with which white men would be content. It might be said, “Suppose there had been no coloured people,” but we had to deal with things as we found them. All sorts of witnesses were examined by the Indigency Commission, and it all came to the same— that poor whites were prejudiced against unskilled labour, because they saw Kafirs doing it. The poor whites said, “Take the Kafirs away”, and then we will do the work,” but the whole of the industries in this country were built up on a foundation of coloured labour. How that could be altered he did not know. The salvation of the white men was in their own hands, and if they could not free themselves from the prejudice and shackles of custom, and from the idea that to take off their coats and to work hard was beneath their dignity, they should be left alone to stew in their own juice. In conclusion, Mr. Quinn advised hon. members to read the report of the Indigency Commission. (Cheers.)

said he thought the House would do well to look at the motion on its own merits, and not to be alarmed by the idea that it was the beginning of a larger policy. He was somewhat surprised to find a motion like that coming from the hon. member (Mr. Creswell), because if there was one section of the people more bitterly opposed to immigration than another, it was the Labour party. Whenever he (Mr. Duncan) had advocated a policy of assisted immigration, the people who opposed it more bitterly than anyone else were the Labour party. He entirely agreed with the mover that before we could have an immigration policy, based on a sound foundation, we must get away from the present basis of our industrial system—a basis of indentured, imported labour. (Cheers.) For that reason he wished to support this motion. They all agreed that it was necessary to widen the scope of employment for white people in South Africa. The future of South Africa was bound up with the expansion of the white races. But did a labour policy, which depended on the importation of uncivilised labour, tend to widen the scope of white employment? He knew there was one view that it did, and that the more indentured coloured labour we had, the more employment there would be for whites. He thought that view gradually was being abandoned, and it was definitely abandoned by the Indigency Commission, which reported that it was a fallacy to suppose that an industrial system, built up on indentured coloured labour, could lead to an expansion of skilled labour. The argument was, that so long as the sphere of white labour rested on this coloured basis it must constantly be subjected to fluctuations due to shortage of coloured labour. When that shortage occurred, there was a large shrinkage of labour open to skilled white men. The unskilled labour market was the great reservoir of skilled labour, and where there was no unskilled labour market at all they could not hope for an expansion in the employment of white labour. The coloured man was not a slave, neither was the native. Each was educating himself, and becoming more skilled, and he believed that no custom in the world would stand against the encroachment by the skilled coloured man on the white man’s preserves. Proceeding, he said if the white man was going to be excluded from unskilled labour, and he was going to be exposed to the competition of the coloured man, who was being trained up to take his place, then no further argument was needed to show that there was no hope for him. There had been a custom in South Africa to regard it as derogatory to the dignity of the white man to do unskilled labour, but, that had broken down under the pressure of necessity, and it seemed to him to be useless, to say that the white man would not do unskilled labour. He would like to know whether he got a fair chance. The whole organisation of the mines was based upon indentured labour, and what was the use of expecting a white man, ever to be taken on under such circumstances? The hon. member for Jeppes (Mr. Creswell) had referred to a Commission of which he was a member, and he would like to say that the representatives of the mining industry did everything they could to employ a large number of white men. Of course, there were difficulties in the way. For instance, it meant that if 50 or 100 white men were taken on in a mine the latter’s whole organisation would be upset. Of course, when there was a shortage of labour, there was a considerable demand for unskilled men in certain branches. It seemed to him that they were wrong when they said that the white man could, but would not, do unskilled Labour. He could do it, and before they said he would not, they should alter their industrial system into something more like one in which, the white man’s civilisation and habits would enable him to take part. It had been said that this motion was only the beginning of a much wider policy, the policy of excluding native labour altogether from their industrial system,. Well, that was not how be regarded it, and it was not how any sensible man would regard it. He could not think that any sensible man would for a moment put, forward a policy of excluding natives from their industrial system altogether. They had a large native population here; they had trained them up to habits of industry; they taxed them according to their habits of industry; they had got wants, and to satisfy these wants they had to take part in their industrial system, whether they liked it or not. They could not be excluded, either as a matter of policy or justice. The motion before the House did not, to his mind, convey any such germ of policy at all. The object of it was that in the event of their having to import, labour from oversea they should import people who would take part in the building up of the country, and not labourers who were regarded as machines. Looking at the enormous fabric of industry in this country, he thought they ought to look, not only at its results, but also at the foundation upon which it was based. It, was built upon a foundation of indentured labour, which was brought here without any hope, prospect, or intention of taking part, in the development of the country. The object of the motion was to develop the whole population within the Union, whether white or coloured, to the fullest, extent, and for that reason he supported it. It was based on the view that the white man and the coloured man must, to a large extent, live together in South Africa. He did not believe in a policy of segregation to any large extent, and he believed that the respective spheres of influence of the white and coloured men must be determined by economic process.

said he thought that the speech of the hon. member for Jeppes had been spoiled by reckless statements and unjust accusations. In the course of his speech that hon. member had made certain statements in connection with the company with which he (the speaker) was connected, and he would like to refute what had been stated, because some hon. members might take it that all these were true. The hon. member made general assertions against De Beers, and said that Kimberley had become a bye-word in the country—that, there were no free white men there, and that the natives were imprisoned. At, the same time he thought that when an hon. member of that House made a statement, that had to do with another hon. member or some corporation with which that hon. member was connected, he should make such accusations—not general accusations—so that the hon. member might have an opportunity of defending himself. He (Colonel Harris) would like to say that the statements of the hon. member for Jeppes with reference to Kimberley were groundless and untrue. He would like to say that the company with which he was connected paid higher wages to its employees than any other corporation in the world, and that their workmen were treated far better than the workmen in the employ of any other company. They had (the greatest, regard for the comfort, the pleasure, and the general welfare of their workmen, and they employed as many unskilled white labourers as they possibly could. Concerning the natives, he could only say that the hon. member for Jeppes had got hold of wrong ideas on the subject. The hon. member had spoken about natives having been imprisoned in compounds, and yet he had never paid a visit to those places himself. In spite of all this, he came to that House arid made a lot of reckless statements that were quite groundless. Dealing with the contract question, the speaker said that a native was bound to work for the period covered by his contract, just the same as a mining engineer who had to fulfill his contract under certain penalties. There was nothing wrong with the contracts; the hon. member’s imagination seemed to have run away with him when he dealt with the subject. The company with which he (the speaker) was connected employed unskilled white labourers, and taught them a trade. Those men, at the very outset, were paid at the rate of 10s. a day, and within a very shout while, this was increased to £4 a week.

But you don’t employ enough of them.

said that the company employed all the unskilled labour it possibly could. He had the greatest respect for the working-man, but he begged leave to say that there were cithers besides the working-man who were responsible for the prosperity and the development of the country. What about the pioneers and the prospectors of this country, many of whom had left their bones here? What of these men? He went on to say that there was absolute necessity for capital in the country. While shafts were being sunk and other work done, the workmen bad to be paid every week, and how was that to be accomplished unless they were in possession of capital? Without capital, he ventured to say that, the country would not be in the position it was that day. And he went on to point out that the capitalist was just as necessary as the working-man. According to the condition of things as they existed in the country at the present time, the number of white men employed depended on the number of Kafirs or natives that were engaged. To every white six Kafirs were employed; and if they restricted the importation of natives across their border, they would find that for each, thousand natives that there were dropped, there would be a decrease of about 150 in the number of white men engaged. Therefore, he could not understand the hon. member, who posed as the champion of labour, bringing forward a proposal which meant a decrease in the number of white men employed. Dealing with the working-man, the speaker said that he came to this country for a cut-and-dried job; and he asked who was responsible for that job? Yet they had not a good word to say for the capitalist. He knew the value of the working-man, and he respected him; and he would say that be and other gentlemen connected with the company which had been attacked did all they could for the working-man, a statement which he challenged the hon. member to deny. In spite of all that they had done, reckless charges were made against them. These gentlemen connected with the company were respected in every community, and yet, when they met together in the Board room and mixed their ideas, they were set down as a curse to mankind. (Laughter.) In conclusion, he thought the resolution contradictory, considered that it would defeat its own ends, and said that he could not support it for those reasons.

said that nobody could deny that this was one of the most important questions that had come before the House—the question of the labour supply and its utilisation in South Africa. For two days there had been a debate upon scab and sheep, but he ventured to say that no one would contradict him when he said that the state of the white population of the country was of more moment to South Africa than scabby sheep. The hon. member for Jeppes had introduced this motion in the course of what he might say was a well-delivered speech. The speech of the hon. member for Fordsburg they received with much more pleasure and joy, because he had conic to them as the sinner who had repented. It did his heart good to hear what he had to say upon the question of indentured labour. A few years ago he and his friends were saying the very opposite about indentured labour and a people that would not only have affected the white man. But swept him out of this country. He (the speaker) was glad the hon. member for Fordeburg had awakened. (Laughter.) Now, this matter had been considered wholly, as far as he could see, from the mining point of view. That, of course, was very important, but it was by no means the only part of the labour question in South Africa. Everywhere in South Africa they would find the labour question the question of the day. He had just returned from a visit to Natal, which had been shaken to its centre by what he considered to be the perfectly proper and admirable resolution of the Indian Government to allow of no more importation of coolies to South Africa. For they were just as bad as the Chinese. They were a canker in South Africa, and the country wanted to get rid of them, but the fact must also be remembered that there was an enormous industry which, at any rate, those who were running it imagined, depended entirely upon coolie labour. These people thought the disappearance of the coolies would dislocate the industries of Natal, and that there should be some contemplation of the means of supply which were going to be left. The same difficulty occurred in connection with the farming industry. What must strike one as curious was that while there was all this outcry for labour, they were faced, on the other hand, with the lamentable fact that there were thousands of men in this country who were living in a state of deplorable poverty, and who did no work; and the great problem for the statesmen of this country was to try and find some means of bringing these two matters together—the lack of labour on the one hand, and the deplorable indigence and indolence of a section of the population on the other hand. It was no good talking about building up a race or fine sentiments of that kind unless they did this. No race could be built up if a large section of it was sunk in contented apathy, or by imagining they were going to keep a large part of the population of the country as mere hewers of wood and drawers of water If they prevented one set of people from rising or contentedly watched another set of people sinking, they were going to have trouble in this country. The mover of this resolution asked the House to believe that by means of the resolution they were going to solve the difficult problems of labour in this country. They were not going to do that. They might for a time dislocate one or two industries, but the resolution would do nothing towards supplying labour or supplying an outlet for the energies of those people who were willing to work, but who somehow or other did not seem to be able to get work. They had heard a great deal about poor whites. Many of his hon. friends seemed to think the poor white was hopeless. He was not hopeless; no man was hopeless if they went the right way to work with him. They had had many striking examples in this country of the way in which these people worked when they got the chance. Many of their railways were built largely by the labour of these people. He must say for his friends opposite that they had done a great deal to give these people work. But who were their greatest enemies? They were the highly-paid men in the mines, who would not allow these people to work and to learn the trade. That was the difficulty which faced these people when they tried to get work in the mines. Well, they had got to try and get rid of that difficulty, and they had got to try to make these men ashamed of coming down there and advocating pure white labour, and then, when the white labourer came and asked to be taught the trade, saying, “:No; we have got to have a close bureau.” The whole subject was one of the highest importance to this country. They should try to do something, however small it might be, this session but don’t let them do it in a haphazard way, If some of the arguments of the hon. member (Mr. Creswell) were inquired into in cold, logical fashion, they would be found to be extremely undesirable. The hon. member had talked about the advantages of other countries. Did he want them to establish here the labour conditions of America? Did he want them to take as their pattern those cities of America where steel and iron were turned out for the Trusts? South Africa was not the only country threatened with amalgamation, or the most hideous form of amalgamation. If they wanted to find the worst conditions of labour in the world, they had to go to those countries which were turning out gigantic fortunes for the Steel Trusts. Why attack South Africa? Did the hon. member wish to reproduce here the hideous conditions of child labour in the cotton mills of America? And why did they talk in the way they did of the black man? It should surely be their aim to try to raise the black man’s status, and at the same time try to make employment for more white men, and particularly the white men of this country. Because he (Mr. Merriman) held that one white man brought up in this country and accustomed to dealing with natives would do more with five natives than a man brought from oversea would do with ten. He would like the hon. member to go out and see some of the young men—sons of farmers—working with the natives on the farms. That sort of man did not turn up a bucket, light a pipe, and look on at the Kafir working. That was too much the habit of the man from oversea. The white man of this country worked with the natives, and showed them the way the work should be done. If the golden age contemplated by the hon. member came when they got rid of the last black man from the mines, and got out these pound-a-day men, they would have a crisis which might convulse the whole industry of this country. Supposing they had a Broken Hill strike on the Witwatersrand, and the gold production was stopped? It would mean ruin to this country. They were going to prevent that, and they were going to prevent it by the very instrument which the hon. member despised so much, and that was the humble black. Proceeding, the right hon. gentleman said that if it could be proved that there was that mortality of natives, it was their duty as humane men and Christian men to stop this importation. The problem ought to be gone into thoroughly. He had been reading the other day of experiences of the ancient mines of Egypt. Curiously enough, a large number of men had left their inscriptions there also. (Laughter.) The Egyptians who had gone to work these mines recorded that there was not a mortality of 9 percent, among the labourers, and here in this century, where they were professing Christianity and building churches, they had nearly as great a mortality as Rameses had in the mines of Egypt. Well, he thought that was a blot upon their civilisation. What was the meaning, again, of the phrase, “the widening of the field for white labour”? That was a beautiful phrase, but what did it mean? The field was wide enough, the harvest was plentiful, the difficulty was in getting labourers for the harvest. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) They wanted to get people into the field, and what they wanted to know was how to do it. Take one subject in that melancholy book, the report of the Indigency Commission—the employment of female labour in Chinese laundries. What was the use of talking when they allowed that scaudal to take place. If these people could be only induced to go and work in the houses of better-class people, as they did in England, there would not be this scandal; but for some unknown reason—a reason that must be got over—these people would not do that, and that was one of the greatest blots upon their social system, and it led to the most undesirable results. It was bad for the people and bad for the employers of labour, and dreadfully bad for the whole social system of the country. They had five millions of people—were they going to shut them up and prevent them going to the mines? They were very much mistaken if they thought that this was cheaper labour than any other in the world. Look at the Peruvian, the Chinese, the Mexican, and Spanish mines. The only practical way of dealing with the matter was to bring it home to the sense of the House by means of a Select Committee, which would deal not only with this one phase, but with other phases of labour, and particularly with the problem of the poor whites. He moved, therefore, to omit all the words after “that” for the purpose of inserting the following: “The question of the supply and utilisation of European and non-European labour within the Union be referred to a Select Committee for consideration and report.”

seconded the amendment.

moved the adjournment of the debate till to-morrow.

The motion was agreed to.