from J. F. Kelber, teacher, Orange Free State.

from women within the Union, praying the House to grant to all civilised women the right to vote.

from Sarah White, the widow of John White.

from Simon’s Town Municipality, praying that further Asiatic immigration be stopped.

from H. Leonard, teacher.

from the Town Council of Belfast, Transvaal, praying that further Asiatic immigration be stopped.

similar petition from the Town Council of Caledon.

similar petition from Jacobsdal.

for extension of railway from Fauresmith to Koffyfontein through Jacobsdal to join the main line at or near Modder River.

resuming, said that both sides of the House had agreed on the necessity for eradicating all the cattle diseases they possibly could in the country; but there had sometimes been difference of opinion between them as to the methods; and this had been specially true with regard to scab. The administration had been such that farmers had greatly objected. In consequence of the inefficient way of fighting the disease— wrongly founded on uniformity of regulations where no uniformity was possible— the Cape had in the past spent a vast sum of money uselessly. He hoped that there would be an improvement under the system outlined by the Prime Minister in his speech, and that he would meet the farmers in times of special difficulty, such as drought. That had not always been the case in the past, and there had been a great deal of feeling and difference of opinion. It had been said that he was against the Scab Act of the Cape, but that was certainly not the case; what, he had objected to was the way in which it had sometimes been carried out. There was no one who would more gladly see all cattle diseases stamped out than he. As to what the hon. member for Prieska (Mr. Kuhn) had said, he (the hon. member) knew the constituents of the hon. member, and knew what conditions they lived under. They wished to see scab eradicated just as much as anybody else; but because they did not agree with the administration in the Northwest—where conditions were of a peculiar nature—they had been called “demons of ignorance.” (Laughter.) Although he would not say that the present Prime Minister was the best or most capable man they had had—(laughter)—still; he was doing his best, to put an end to all cattle diseases—which they all had in view. He was thankful to the Prime Minister for the efforts which he was making. He had every confidence in the Prime Minister, because he was a practical farmer. When such a matter was before Parliament, let all the practical farmers be heard on it, because they knew exactly what was wanted for the country, and what their constituents desired. He heartily welcomed that Bill, and hoped that the regulations would prove efficacious. If they were too stringent they would make people nervous, thereby overshooting the mark. He trusted that the effect of the Bill, if it passed into law, would prove beneficial to the whole of the country, and that they would be able to live in harmony and concord with each other. Under the present Bill, if a farmer had scab on his farm it was quarantined, and this would act as a deterrent. He thought that no sheep should be moved about until they were clean, but, at the same time, it must be kept in mind that there were special circumstances in the North-west, where they must not treat the farmers with undue harshness. Too much money had been expended in the past on the eradication of scab in the Cape, and he thought that, they had not received adequate value for that expenditure, because there had been inspectors who did not know their business. That Bill was an improvement on what they had had in the past, and he cordially supported the second reading.

said the Bill itself did tittle more than give power to the Minister to deal with cases. At the same time an important point was the placing of the responsibility upon the Minister. So far it had been impossible to fix responsibility upon any individual. For that reason the was inclined to welcome the Bill. With regard to Chapter I., the provisions of this chapter were very important, although his hon. friend opposite said they were very much like shutting the stable door after the horse was stolen The list of animal diseases in this unfortunate country was as comprehensive as any in the world. It would be useless to deal with these unless they made provision to stop the importation of fresh cases. It was most necessary that they should make provision to test and examine imported stock upon this side of the water. Human nature was the same all the world over, and in the case of tuberculosis their experience was that certificates of freedom from this were not to be relied upon. It seemed to him impossible to lay down a hard and fast law to deal with every case: He took it also that the appointment of the officials to administer the Bill would be in the hands of the responsible Minister. It would be unfair to hold a Minister responsible unless he had the appointment of the officers. Certain pro visions, like that for making owners responsible for reporting the presence of diseases, the doing away with the granting of permits for removal, and the raising of the penalties for contravention of the law were very excellent indeed. It was the abuse of these certificates which were responsible for the spread of scab. There was only one suspicious thing about the proposed legislation, and that was that it depended almost entirely upon regulations which were to be framed and administered by the Minister. He could not say, however, how in this case it could have been otherwise. There was no doubt about it that the Minister would be responsible to Parliament for the right and proper use he made of the rights conferred upon him. Proceeding, Mr. Blaine said that there was a very urgent and important matter, to draw attention to which he thought at one time of moving the adjournment of the House. He had decided otherwise, and he hoped the Minister would be able to give him an assurance on the subject. For some time past the Government had had fencing guards on the Kei River, and what he wished to tell the House was that the Government had suddenly dismissed the most of these guards, only retaining a few. Now he thought that that was a very dangerous step to take indeed. He had lived all his life on the border, all his life he had had to do with the native, not the civilised native, but the raw Kafir, and he could say unhesitatingly that the removal of these guards was a very great danger indeed to the Cape Province. The guards he referred to were East Coast guards. Now, many Ministers had incurred expenditure up to a certain point, and having reached that point, for the sake of saving money they nullified what they had already done. He thought that under such circumstances it would be better not to spend money from the very first, and let things go. He had received telegrams from people living on the border expressing alarm at the withdrawal of the guards, and urging him to do the best he could to induce the Government, to reconsider its action in this matter. There was one difficulty, and that was as to stopping natives moving their cattle about the country, but he hoped the Minister would give him an assurance that he would reconsider his action. What he should advise the Government to do would be to reinstate the guards, send men who knew what East Coast fever meant, and some local man amongst the farmers, and explain what, East Coast fever was, and offer to advance farmers money on the most reasonable and favourable conditions possible for the building of dipping tanks. He would, of course, make the farmers understand that expenditure on guards would not, go on for ever, but that guards would simply be used in order to retard the progress of the fever. He concluded by referring to the advantages of the system of digging adopted in Natal, and said that if the Government would concede his request and make the people know that it was prepared to help them, then he thought it would have done what any farmer in the country could possibly expect.

hoped that all members who took an interest in that matter would state what their views were, which would be of great, assistance to the Select Committee which would be appointed. He hoped that it would result in a really good law being drawn up which would prove satisfactory to the whole country. He hoped that the Prime Minister would not place “nieuwe ziekte’’ under the “cattle diseases” which were specially referred to in the Bill. It was practically a new disease, and if it were scheduled, it would lead to a great deal of difficulty and annoyance. Thanks to the permit system under the Crown Colony Government, much had been done for the eradication of lung sickness in the Free State and the Transvaal. If they strictly maintained that, system, he thought that they would practically eradicate lung-sickness as far as South Africa was concerned. It was not necessary to destroy lung-sick cattle, because many animals became immunised after one attack. As to “sponsziekte,” he did not pose as an expert, but he thought that, medicine and fresh pasturage would cure it. He was opposed to the destruction of cattle suffering from this disease. As far as scab was concerned, that was one of those difficult diseases with which they had to contend—for they got people who did not believe that it, could be eradicated, and others who did not believe that it, was due to ticks. If they co-operated and introduced a strict law, he thought that they could easily eradicate it. In the Transvaal they had more stringent regulations than in the Cape, and yet few people would be found there who said that the purpose of the regulations was to exterminate the cattle-farmers and not the disease. He fully believed that scab could be eradicated, if a proper effort were made. If certain farms had had no scab for nine years, was it not possible to eradicate it, for how was it that there were cattle-farmers who never had scabby sheep? He did not agree with cattle being sent to market after a single dipping; he was in favour of a double dipping. (Hear, hear.) In the case of a single dipping, the ticks might be killed, but not the ova: and the disease would thus be latent, only to break out again at a later date. Double dipping would prove quite efficacious. Scab must be treated as an infectious disease. He was in favour of what the Prime Minister had said about the regulations which the Government would introduce, because it would be impossible to carry out too hard and fast a rule.

who also welcomed the Bill, said that he did so for two reasons; first, because it was a serious attempt to eradicate cattle disease; and, secondly, because it consolidated the many Acts dealing with different cattle diseases which they had on the Statute-book. He agreed with the previous speaker as to what he had said about the unfairness of this Bill dealing with “nieuwe ziekte” and “sponsziekte.” As to East Coast fever he thought that every precaution should be taken to prevent its spreading from the Native Territories, for they knew the difficulty they had with natives, and their trekking when disease broke out. Coming to scab he was surprised to see from the Inspector’s report that scab in the Cape in 1910 was as bad as it bad been in 1908-9. He thought it was quite as bad as in 1897. The reason for that set-back was because of the way in which the Scab Act had been administered. According to the present Bill a farmer would have to build his own dipping tank on his farm, and would not be allowed to dip on his neighbour’s farm; which he thought would lead to a great detail of difficulty. He considered that some of the penalties were too heavy; for example, there was one which inflicted imprisonment without the option of a fine in case a man trekked with infected sheep. Would that apply in the case of a man who trekked with a few scabby sheep? If it did, the penalty was too heavy. He would support the measure in so far as the regulations, which could be drawn up, were concerned, except that these regulations should first receive the assent of Parliament, because it, was going a bit too far if only ten persons drew up these regulations, and they then became law. He considered that an Advisory Board, with fairly wide powers, was very necessary, and spoke in favour of it The “block” system had been advocated by those. In high places, in order that scab might be eradicated; but he must strongly protest against it, and if it were introduced it would lead to a great deal of dissatisfaction. With these exceptions, he was in support of the Bill.

spoke with appreciation of the way in which cattle diseases had been tackled in the Transvaal, and said if they had done in the Cape what they had done there, there would have been a great diminution of cattle disearse. They must, in fact, have autocratic methods, and not too sympathetic methods, if they wished to get rid of cattle disease. As to what was said about “sympathy,” well, they must have more for the poor sheep, and less for the farmer who owned the scabby sheep. (Laughter.) The hon. member for Prieskp (Mr. Kuhn) had spoken in favour of strict regulations in regard to the importation of cattle and other diseases which were fax, far away from his own part of the country; but when they got nearer home—to scab—he suddenly became in favour of more (leniency. (Laughter.) They should not be too lenient if they wanted to eradicate cattle diseases, and they had seen that in the Transvaal. The penalties must be imposed, in case of contravention of the Act, without regard to persons, and they should even make them heavier in case it was a high person or a member of Parliament who was the culprit. (Laughter.) The hon. member for prieska (Mr. Kuhn) had said that too much money had been, and was, spent on the eradication of scab, and had favoured less money being devoted to, that purpose. He (Mr. Neser), on the other hand, favoured more money being spent, so that a determined effort would be made, once and for all, of getting rid of the disease. (Hear, hear.) He was in favour also of people getting better opportunities of dipping, their cattle regularly and frequently; and where the farmers were too poor, a number of them could co-operate, and the Government could assist them. There should foe dipping tanks within 10 miles of each other. It was said that what he was advocating was not of a practical nature, but he knew what he was talking about and had a practical knowledge of farming.

agreed with the previous speaker that a stringent Scab Act was necessary, but said that they should not have legislation which would prove a dead letter. The feeling had been not so much against the Act as such, but against the administration. They had a sympathetic Prime Minister, who had a practical knowledge of farming, and who could be trusted to do his level best for the agricultural community, and the country, and was, therefore, deserving of their hearty support; but the right hon. gentleman would not always be in his present position. As to the penalties laid down in the Bill, he thought that they were heavy, and the Magistrate was allowed a certain amount of discretion, but he considered that the Magistrate would tend to impose practically the highest penalty which he would be allowed to do so, as he might think that it was the intention of Parliament to have these maximum penalties imposed. He could not see the necessity for having regulations approved by Parliament, especially since their very object was to deal with unforeseen circumstances. He did not think that what the previous speaker had advocated with regard to dipping tanks was of a practical nature. Trekking with infected cattle was dangerous and every farmer should have his own dip.

who spoke of the great differences existing between different parts of the Union, said that to have efficient legislation a good deal of investigation must be carried out by the experts. Experts, however, were not the people to draft practical regulations. Conditions in the South-west of the Free State, and the North-west of the Cape were very different from those in the Transvaal. It was all very well to say “dip,” but there were districts where they did not have sufficient water with which to prepare dip. Then, in the North-west of the Cape, or his district, cattle easily got hold of ticks, and it was a very difficult matter to keep them clean. They must also think of the cold winter nights, when the ice lay thick on the ground, and the extreme difficulty of dipping sheep next morning in the icy water. One man in his district, who had 300 fine sheep, lost no less than 80 as a result of such dipping. In such districts, where the conditions were so peculiar, there must be some local inspection. No Sheep should be dipped unless there was an efficient Government inspector to see that the din was prepared in the proper way. If there was efficient dipping, he would prophesy that scab would be eradicated within six months. Referring to the penalties which could be inflicted under that Bill, he thought that they were extremely severe. What he also objected to was that cases were sometimes tried, not by the magistrate, but by his assistant, who was sometimes a, greenhorn — (laughter)—and much more severe than his chief. If a farmer had to serve his time in gaol, who was to look after his sheep? (Laughter.) He was a warm supporter of the Government, but in regard to that Bill, he found himself to be between the devil and the deep sea-—(laughter)—for he would have trouble with his supporters if he approved of the Bill. They could not legislate efficiently if the people were out of sympathy with the proposed legislation. He was in favour of local bodies to administer the law.

read a telegram from a number of his constituents, who asked him to do his utmost to speak and work against the Bill. The hon. member said that the last three words of the telegram had been underlined. (Laughter.)

Who underlined them?

The telegraphist. (Laughter.)

said that the penalties provided in that measure were too severe; neither was any opportunity given to pay the fine by instalments. When he was in Boshof a farmer had had to go to gaol for a contravention of the Scab Act, because he did not have the money with which to pay the fine. It was a heartrending thing to see a respectable farmer sent to gaol for an offence like that. That was what would happen if the present measure became law, too. Proceeding, he ref erred to the Scab Act of the Cape, and the 16 years during which it had been administered, saying that the reason why it had not been attended with more success was because it did not have the sympathy of the people. The Government seemed to be very much afraid of local control—as much as the Government of Britain seemed to be of Home Rule for Ireland—and he did not know why. He, again, was very much afraid of Government by regulation. The North-west could not be treated like other districtis, and if the people of the Northwest were trusted, and special regulations were laid down for that part of the country, much good would result—more than if their wishes were not at all taken into consideration. If they did what the hon. member for Potchefstroom (Mr. Neser) had advocated, there would be great distress and famine in the Northwest. If the wishes of the people were consulted, there would be satisfaction, and the law would have a good prospect of proving a success. Eighty thousand sheep had recently died in the Hope Town district, and only after their death a notification had been received from the Government giving permission for their trekking to the Transvaal. Under a local Board that would not have occurred, and the sheep would have been removed out of that district without delay, and so the owners would not be suffering such losses as they had now incurred. If he consulted only his own feelings, he would vote against the Bill as it at present stood, but in view of the Select Committee that would be appointed he would not oppose the second reading.

staid that in his constituency sound horses had been shot because they were supposed to suffer from glanders. The regulations in connection with East Coast fever and lung-sickness should not be merely for the extermination of cattle, but to eradicate disease, and he was convinced that many cattle had been unnecessarily killed. Dealing with scab he thought that where a man would not dip his sheep; the inspector must make him do so, or dip the sheep himself. He was in favour of inspectors who had been locally elected, and knew the conditions of that particular part of the country. He hoped that the Bill would be so amended that their constituents would be satisfied with it, and that it would prove a success.

said his constituents were living in a district that was threatened with an invasion of East Coast fever, and they desired to bring before the notice of Government their particular case. The neighbouring district of Glen Grey was entirely occupied by small native landowners, who were in a very peculiar position. The Queen’s Town farmers had very largely gone in for dipping tanks. At present there were two dipping tanks in the Glen Grey district, and the natives were so impressed with the value of these tanks that they had asked the Queen’s Town farmers who lived on the border of the Glen Grey district to cross the border and use the tanks. Some six months ago the local Council made inquiries about the cost of a public dipping tank, but they found that the cost was altogether beyond their means as a public body. He would suggest that the Prime Minister, in relegating this Bill to a Select Committee, should consider whether assistance could not be given to necessitous public bodies in the construction of necessary dipping tanks. Sir Bisset also raised a point as to the appointment of some intelligent person in districts like that of Glen Grey to take charge of the dipping tank, and suggested that intelligent natives should be specially instructed, or some of the students should be sent from Elsenberg to instruct the natives in regard to the dipping of cattle.

said that the Bill had his cordial support. He was pleased to hear from the Prime Minister that the regulations which were to be issued under the Bill in regard to scab would be adapted to the climatic conditions of the country. That was a principle which the people of the Northwest had been fighting for year after year for the past 16 years. He had studied the question of the administration of the Scab Law not only in his own district, but al over the country, and he had come to the conclusion that they could not carry out scab administration over South Africa with one hard and fast law. The Prime Minister had shown from the figures that he laid before the House that practically only 2 per cent, of the stock which found their way to Johannesburg were scab infected. From that he drew the inference that only 2 per cent. of the sheep of the whole Colony were infected with scab, and that, therefore, the eradication of scab was a simple and easy matter. He (Mr. Watermeyer) thought, however, that the inference was not one that was justified by the circumstances, for he was convinced that, if the truth were known, there was a great deal of scab—so much, indeed, that they stood ashamed of the result of the work of the past sixteen years upon which so much money had been spent. In his opinion, the reports of the scab inspectors were unreliable. Mr. Watermeyer pointed out that in the North-west it was a curious fact that when the drought descended upon them the sheep which were the first to become scab infected were those which had been dipped. Proceeding, he said he agreed with what the Prime Minister had said as to having the administration of the Scab Law in the hands of local boards. He wished to impress upon the right hon. gentleman that the North-western districts had not been fighting so much for local administration as they had been fighting for scab legislation being carried out in accordance with local conditions by men who know the conditions of those districts, men who were allowed a certain amount of discretion, and who knew when to give and when to take. In the North-western districts, the sheep industry was the only industry which occupied the people. The farmers there went carefully among their flocks, and hand-dressed the sheep morning after morning, when, they saw any signs of scab. It was not true that these farmers did not want scab legislation; what they wanted was scab legislation in accordance with the conditions of the district. The scab administration of the Cape Colony, at any rate, had been a monumental failure. The Chief Inspector of Scab during the last sixteen years had utterly failed to appreciate the conditions of the North-west and the conditions of the people. Men had been made scab inspectors who had themselves failed at sheep-farming, or who had been assistants or clerks in shops—men who did not care what, annoyance they caused to the sheep-farmers, and who as a result of their methods, were cordially hated. How could it he expected that a scab inspector could succeed in a district with the conditions of which he was entirely unacquainted? There had been too much dictatorship in the administration of the Scab Act, and he could tell the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir T. Smartt) that if the Administration with which he was connected had continued for a couple of months longer, the dictatorial administration of the Scab Act would have caused a rebellion in the North-west. At any rate, there would have been an unpleasant situation if the Act had continued to be so stringently carried out. The people there were still smarting under the effects of that, but they hoped and believed that the regulations. Which would be framed under this Bill would be such as would have due regard to local conditions, and so they welcomed this legislation. It was, above all, imperative that the regulations should be framed in such a way that they would carry the people with them. They did not want any dictatorship. They could not carry out any law by forcing the people. He hoped to see certain amendments made in this Bill, which he would support.

said that never had Free State wool realised such prices as at present—the prices being as good as those of Australian wool—which he ascribed as due to the Scab Act in force in the Orange Free State. The Act was strictly enforced, but when it was drawn up, the wishes of the farmers had been taken into consideration. He was in favour of cheaper Scab Act administration.

said that the late Paul Kruger had said that he could lead his people, but could not drive them, and he (Dr. Neethling) thought that the Prime Minister had recognised the truth of that. The hon. member for Potchefstroom appeared to think they were still living under the Roman Emperors. He was glad to hear what the Prime Minister had said, because it showed that what he would do, he would do with sympathy. He alluded to the measures taken in Australia and New Zealand to stamp out scab; and asked whether they would eradicate it in this country unless they adopted the same measures, such as digging wells, to provide the water for the purpose of making dip, and furnishing dip to the farmers at low rates. He knew of cases where farmers had to trek in times of drought, because they could not easily get the dip they wanted. There should be more facilities for the farmers to obtain dip. There must be more sympathetic officials, from the top to the bottom. He thought that local Boards would be a step in the right direction, and hoped that provision would be made for them in that measure. Trekking should be prohibited, farms should be fenced, so as to allow sheep to roam about at will, which would minimise the danger of infection through close proximity. Cooperation between the public and the officials was essential.

said he was in favour of the principle of the Bill. He believed that a certain amount of freedom should be allowed so as to provide for different circumstances in different parts of the country. He pointed out that the Government had spent £38,000 in fencing in the Transkeian Territories. Most of that expenditure had been useless expenditure, and did not hinder the spread of East Coast fever. The remedy for East Coast fever was dipping. From the return laid on the table, he found that the natives had erected at their own expense 57 dipping tanks and 35 spraying machines, private individuals had also erected 29 dipping tanks and six spraying machines, making a total of 86 dipping tanks and 41 spraying machines, at a total cost of £32,000. He held that if the Government had spent, say, only half of the £48,000 they spent on fencing, in erecting dipping tanks, it would have been very much better. He hoped that in carrying out the regulation of the Bill, the Government would take up the position that it would erect dipping tanks where necessary, and provide proper supervision as well. While heartily approving of the Bill, he wished to say that the question as to whether the proposed legislation would be the blessing that they all expected, all depended upon its administration. He thought that the regulations should be laid before the House. As regarded section 16, he considered it was unfair. Why should not compensation be paid in the case of animals destroyed by East Coast fever, when it was proposed to pay compensation for animals destroyed by any other disease, for the good of the country? Did he understand that compensation was to be paid for animals destroyed, in order to prevent the spread of East Coast fever, and not for animals which died from the disease?

was understood to reply in the affirmative.

said that he did not consider that fair. The poor man, whose animals were sick and had to be destroyed should receive compensation. Proceeding, he said that he considered the penalties provided in section 21 too high, not all, but those for small infringements of the law. He assured the Minister that he would not find natives in the Transkei backward in obeying any necessary regulations that might be formulated.

said that when they considered how much injury had been caused through the importation of diseased cattle, the provisions of the measure dealing therewith were very wise indeed. The hon. member for Prieska (Mr. Kuhn) had said that the stable door was being closed after the horse had escaped, but what they were trying to do was rather to recapture the horse. In many instances, he added, the officials whose duty it was to administer the Act had been too unsympathetic, with the result that measures had not proved as beneficial or as effective as they should have done. He agreed with the proposal that the Government should be allowed to draw up regulations, because it was not possible to lay down a hard-and-fast rule in a country such as this, with so many different and varying conditions. It was quite proper that some latitude should be allowed, and that the Government’s hands were not tied. He thought that the penalties laid down were too harsh, as far as scab was concerned, at any rate, and thought that some differentiation should be made. It would not do to hold a farmer responsible for the condition of his servants’ cattle, as was done in Chapter II.

The House suspended business at 5.58 p.m.

in continuing the debate on the motion for the second reading of the Diseases of Stock Bill, said that he could understand severe penalties being imposed in case elf such extremely serious diseases as redwater, East Coast fever, and the like; but scab was in another category. He maintained that cattle could be cured of lung-sickness, and did not agree with the provisions contained in the Bill with reference there to, because he never believed that an animal which had had lung-sickness, had recovered, and had thus become “salted,” would infect other cattle with the disease.

said that he had expected more opposition to the Bill than there had been, and he was glad that it had been accepted with such good grace. There was a disease among cattle about which they had not heard much, however, during that discussion and that was tuberculosis, which had assumed alarming proportions amongst dairy cows, especially in the Pretoria district. It was a serious question, and it had not only to do with the cattle, but affected human beings as well. The compensation provided for in the Bill was inadequate, because the owners depended on milch-cows for their existence. He was glad the hon. and dictatorial member for Potchefstroom was not charged with the administration of the Act. The Transvaal Field-cornets had carried out the various cattle disease Ordinances to the satisfaction of all concerned. As to what had been said about the benefit of Crown Colony Government, he did not quite agree with what had been said, and he was glad that there was no more of it in South Africa, although he must admit that much had been dome for agriculture in the Transvaal under that kind of government. Why? Because millions had been spent, which had not been the case in the Cape, so that the results there had for that reason, perhaps, not been so good.

said he cordially welcomed the Bill as a consolidating measure, but it contained certain provisions which would prevent him from supporting it, unless they were moved out in the committee stage. With regard to clause 9, Chapter II., he did not think it should provide that there should be compensation for stock “tested and destroyed.” He thought the words “tested and” should be struck out. He also considered that the people should be encouraged to report diseases in stock, and it would be better, to his mind, to provide for more liberal compensation to people who reported diseases, especially in cases like glanders and tuberculosis. Such diseases as these ought to be provided for on a different basis; the compensation for the destruction of animals suffering from these diseases should be more liberal. He welcomed the provision of the Bill with reference to the importation of animals, and he hoped it would be possible to induce the authorities of other South African ports outside the Union to co-operate with them in this respect. With regard to the penalties under the Bill, he thought these were much too severe. They ought to have a scale of penalties in proportion to the seriousness of the offence and the kind of disease. Then, under clause 22, the onus of proof was thrown on to the individual charged. That was reversing the ordinary procedure of the Law Courts, and, to his mind, it was highly objectionable. They ought to have something more to proceed upon than a certificate of an analyst or a veterinary surgeon. They should at least have sworn evidence. Unless these provisions were amended he would have to vote against the Bill.

said that they must not lose sight of the fact that the present measure was destined for the whole of South Africa, and not only for a particular Province. He could not see how a Minister could draw up regulations before the Act was in working order, and it was found how it was working. If they wanted to eradicate disease and have a workable Act, they must have the sympathy of the people; and he did not see how they would get that sympathy when it was laid down in the Bill that all cattle which suffered from lung-sickness had to be killed, as it had been proved that the disease was curable. He hoped that the Bill would be amended in that respect. He agreed with what the previous speaker had said as to clauses 20 and 22, and thought that it would be hard lines on the farmer who had to prove himself innocent when some malicious person had got him into trouble. A determined effort was needed to stamp out disease, and not only that, but they must do everything in their power to keep out other diseases from elsewhere. The Bill, as a whole, was not too stringent, but it required amending in certain respects.

thought that a distinction should be drawn in the case of “droes” and other diseases amongst horses. As to scab, they must set carefully to work, and not set the farmers against the Government, for if they did, they would never carry out the Act. He considered the £50 penalty for scab too severe, and he thought it was wrong to impose imprisonment without the option of a fine in the case of certain contraventions of the Act; many of the farmers considered it an insult that there was such a provision in the Bill. He opposed the provisions about “sponsziekte” quarantine, because the disease particularly affected young cattle. “Nieuwe ziekte” was rife, and if they were to quarantine that disease, the country would be in a sorry plight Dipping sheep in frosty weather was dangerous, and should be applied to badly-infected animals only. There were many incapable inspectors who delighted in nothing so much as instituting legal proceedings. (Cheers.)

said that the objections which farmers had were not so much against the Scab Act, but against the inspectors, whom they thought were incapable. He thought it was nonsense to say that salted cattle, as far as lung-sickness and redwater were concerned, could infect other cattle. It was, therefore, unnecessary to kill off all cattle suffering from lung-sickness. It was nonsense to kill all cattle as soon as disease broke out, and it was better to get their experts to discover a remedy. When the rinderpest had made its appearance, many thousands of cattle had been killed straight away, and not long afterwards a remedy had been found, by which the cattle could become salted. He was in favour of advisory bodies.

said that he was not in favour of the principle of “government by regulation, but he must admit that it would have been impossible to carry out that legislation unless such power were given to the Government. He was glad to hear the Prime Minister say that the regulations would be laid on the table of the House within the first week Parliament met. He cordially supported what the Prime Minister had said about the necessity for co-operation between the Government and farmers, but the “machinery” must be there, and he was greatly in favour of Advisory Boards, which the Government could themselves appoint and consult. These Boards were not to have any administrative power, of course. When the magistrates had to advise in their official capacity things were apt to go wrong. The Transvaal had efficient field-cornets to represent the Agricultural Department, but that was not so in Cape Colony; consequently there were more difficulties there. He agreed with the hon. members for Worcester and Ermelo about the question of the proposed penalties. He was in favour of a man being punished for a deliberate contravention of the Act, but the principle of a person having to prove his innocence he did not agree with. He would say this: that unless they had the people with them, the Government might as well tear the Bill up. (Cheers.) He was in favour of the anti-scab clauses. Uniformity was required in fighting the disease in view of the importance of the wool trade, and if the block system were introduced it would have a bad effect. It must not be forgotten what difficulties some of the farmers in the Cape Province had to contend with, such as jackals, so that their cattle could not be allowed to run free, as in other parts of the Cape, and in the Grange Free State and the Transvaal. He wished to ask the Prime Minister whether he would; in Ms reply, State what he would do in regard to administration, if the Bill became law? They must not think they could get rid of disease merely by imposing heavy penalties, but they must send competent men to all the districts, who would tell the farmers what to do to eradicate disease. The Cape Act was impracticable. The administrative areas should be smaller. Farms should be fenced—if necessary with Government assistance. The dip supplied should be reliable.

said that very much depended on the inspectors they had. He instanced one district where they had a capable inspector, and where there had not been a single ease of scab—without farmers being run in and heavily fined in the Magistrate’s Court. He was in favour of local Boards, because if they had local Boards, each could make its own regulations with better results than officials who lived far away, and did not know the circumstances of each case. Stringency was nothing, if the Act wore but intelligently administered. As to East Coast fever, he hoped that the Government would see that persons who had been in contact with diseased cattle, and who might carry the ticks, and thus infect clean cattle elsewhere, were disinfected before they were allowed to enter clean districts. He was in favour of the most Stringent regulations being carried out. He did not agree with imprisonment for contraventions of the Scab Act, unless they were malicious or deliberate.

said it would not do to legislate alike against scab and diseases of the nature of East Coast fever. The quarantining of farms where scab had made its appearance was impracticable, especially where several farmers lived on the same farm. Measures of that description would lead to dissatisfaction. Scab could be eradicated by the farmers co-operating with local bodies— not by the Government. Men who knew local circumstances should advise the Government. Scab Boards meeting every month would know exactly where the disease occurred, what had been done, and what remained to be done. Publication of the names of farms where scab had appeared was desirable. The penalties were too severe. Government by regulation was a dangerous principle. The present Minister of Agriculture had the confidence of the people, but what about his successor? He regretted the fact that the regulations had not been tabled, because if they could have been discussed simultaneously with the Bill a good deal of time would have been saved. Scab would never disappear until lime and soda were recognised as dips. It had been suggested that they should clean their kraals and confine the flocks within temporary kraals, made of fencing material. He was afraid that was impracticable because goats were shorn in winter, and in that condition could not be exposed to the cold winds.

said, to judge from the speeches that had been delivered by those hon. members who were most interested in agriculture, they were giving the Bill the coldest welcome. The Bill was undoubtedly designed to improve conditions, and to make more sure and certain the occupation of farming, and to diminish those horrible pests which had come from every part of the globe, every kind of disease, against which individual effort was in vain. Yet they found people who would benefit most by the Bill setting their backs against it. Personally, he found fault with the Bill, because it was not comprehensive enough. The only thing that was dealt with strongly was the introduction of cattle from abroad. That was a most important section, but it was surely as important that they should rout out the diseases that already unfortunately existed. He had listened to some of the speeches, and they seemed to indicate that Union was to be of the most parti-coloured description. Sections of the country were to be governed by special regulation adapted to those sections. He hoped be was wrong in that opinion; nevertheless, that had been the interpretation laid upon the Bill, according to the remarks of more than one speaker. That would be a lamentable condition of things, because if they were seeking to go back upon Unification, then they were going the right way to achieve it. He protested against government by regulation. It was a most mischievous thing. There were very serious reasons for urging for a stronger Bill than that before the House. If they were going to make the farming industry so important as they believed it to be to their future, it was clear that it must be stripped of the liability of many diseases. Unhappily, it was a fact that one careless neighbour might inflict upon the whole district untold suffering and incalculable loss. He noticed that the Bill proposed to repeal certain very good measures, which, in his opinion, it would have been better to have retained. It seemed lamentable that these enactments should be repealed, and he hoped the Prime Minister would see his way clear to retain them.

congratulated the Prime Minister on the support he had received from both sides of the House. If the right hon. gentleman could be made to occupy his present position permanently, be, the speaker, would have no objection to swallowing the Bill whole. If, however, the hon. member for Potchefstroom were to become Minister of Agriculture, the result would be that every sheep in the country would be dipped to death, and that every farmer would be lodged in gaol. The cooperation of cattle farmers was of vital importance in fighting stock disease. The success of the Free State Scab Act was due to sympathetic inspectors, and the assistance of the people. Even there, however, officials, including magistrates, sometimes allowed their zeal to outrun their discretion. He looked on the Bill as one the importance of which was at least equal to that of the Prisons Bill. Experience had taught him that local boards were unable successfully to cope with the disease. Some hon. members clamoured for more Government assistance, but he thought that farmers should learn to help themselves. The penalties provided, especially in connection with scab, were excessive. Sheep often became infected without any negligence on the part of the owner. It was very easy for farmers whose pasturage was on firm soil to eradicate disease, but the scab insect and its eggs were often left in sandy soil by the sheep. Months afterwards these insects or eggs would infect other sheep, but on hard veld it was more difficult for the cause of infection to retain its vitality. In view of facts such as these, the system of carrying out the Act by means of regulations was a good one, because it enabled local circumstances to be taken into consideration.

was in favour of fighting scab provincially. The Minister would see to it that interprovincial traffic was not restricted; thus, no objection could be raised against provincial administration on that score. He would support the Bill, however, because the Minister, by the manner in which he had administered the department, had gained the confidence of the people. The right hon. gentleman knew the people, and did not attempt coercion. He trusted the Select Committee would hear other witnesses than those Jiving in or near the Peninsula. The penalties in connection with scab were absurdly high, and would prejudice people against the Bill. The Transvaal had been successful in fighting scab, thanks to special circumstances. It was not a sheep country, but essentially a cattle country. Statistics as to the number of scabby sheep were apt to mislead one, unless this fact were kept in view. Local boards were advisable, but only as consulting bodies, and not in connection with punishment. The district of Jacobsdal would have been ruined if the Right Hon. the Prime Minister had not granted them relief. In such cases local bodies were capable of rendering valuable assistance. The old Free State Boards were a nuisance, but that was because they were elected from amongst and by the burghers. They were therefore interested parties, but if Government appointed the boards, impartial men could be selected. The hon. member for Potchefstroom should take his cue from the Minister. If he did he would be less autocratic. His present standpoint was somewhat antediluvian— (laughter)—and if he persisted in the error of his ways, his fate would be a sorry one. There were periods of the year when it was quite impossible to dip in the Free State. The lambing season was in winter, except in the Eastern districts, and dipping in winter was too dangerous, especially after a drought, when the flocks were weak. Last year about half a million sheep died in the Free State. One farmer in his constituency lost 1,200 sheep, which was a great hardship, especially after the fresh start farmers were compelled to make subsequent to the war. (Applause.) The speaker concluded by counselling discretion in carrying out the law.

said that all farmers would be found willing to co-operate in eradicating disease. For the sake of that co-operation uniform legislation was desirable. In Natal the Scab Act was carried out sporadically. This reacted unfavourably on the Free State, owing to the trekking of sheep. Regulations should be carried out according to local circumstances. He had a good deal of sympathy with farmers on dry veld, because they had much difficulty in keeping their sheep clean.

congratulated the Minister on the Bill, which he would support heart and soul. He had every confidence in the Government, and trusted that the Bill would be put into operation at the earliest possible moment.

said he had been pained to listen to the severe and unreasonable criticism of a Bill which was designed to help the whole farming class. They had heard about the reactionary elements in the great Northwest; there was a considerable lack of discipline. Hon. members seemed to be willing to lay down a law provided they were allowed to make exemptions. These diseases affected the whole of South Africa. On his side of the House they had also had experience of scab. He himself had suffered, because scab got upon a neighbour’s farm. He had lost 300 thoroughbred ewes and 700 lambs, but he did not complain, because the officials in the Free State had administered the law properly. That meant a loss of £1,200 to him, but for much smaller sums hon. members were willing to hang up the law and let disease spread. Hon. members opposite were asking for sympathetic administration. They all knew what that meant. It simply meant exemption. Supposing the Minister of Railways were to state that it was in the interests of the whole Union that it was undesirable that diseased stock should be carried by the public carriers, and to demand that stock should be certified that it came from a clean district, what would they do then? (A VOICE: “Dip, dip,” and laughter.) Supposing that the Johannesburg Town Council were to issue a regulation that they were not going to allow diseased stock upon their market, farmers would have to dip. Personally, he would like to see the Bill made stronger; he would like to see it made imperative. He spoke from the point of view of the man who did not want scab. In this Bill there was a clause which was said to be rather hard— the clause which stated that the Government might require individuals to put up dips at their own expense. It would be a great hardship to some individuals who could not afford the money; but he thought what would be better than individuals spending money would be for the Government to float a loan of a million for dips. The country would benefit if such a scheme were carried into effect. They always had to reckon with that reservoir of disease that lay higher up the country. He was inclined to criticise the Bill on the ground that it was too lenient, because there were farmers in the Cape who did not take the serious view they ought of East Coast fever. The speaker went on to refer to ticks and the absolute necessity of co-operation in the way of preventing a spread of the scourge. Farmers should not consider themselves, but the great danger which faced the whole of the country. He hoped that the farming representatives would assist the Government in passing the measure, so as to combat one disease that had already affected them to a considerable extent, and one that might affect the country considerably.

welcomed the debate, especially the contribution by the hon. member for Pretoria East, who had spoken with moderation. The hon. member for Prieska considered that he (the speaker) might have said a little less about scab; but he had deliberately confined himself to scab, very largely because it was a delicate subject with many hon. members. Some of them would rather not have any scab legislation at all; others were urging him to pass stringent legislation; others again wished to leave matters to the Provincial Councils. The Government were fully alive to the fact that the remedy should not be worse than the disease. (Hear, hear.) Farmers should realise that the Build had been drafted in order to assist them. Without Government assistance, stock diseases would become so bad as to reduce the value of many farms to vanishing-point. Though the majority of the people were law-abiding, they would always find a few people ready to contravene the laws, and it was in view of that fact that stringent measures were required. The border guards in the Transkei had been reduced in number because it was found that their presence was not so effective as was anticipated at the time. Large cordons were superfluous if Government concentrated their attention on stamping out the disease wherever it made its appearance. Experience had shown that East Coast fever slipped through any cordon they might draw. A vigorous campaign would be carried on in the Transkei itself, and no efforts would be spared to prevent the disease from crossing over into Cape Colony proper. He could confidently anticipate a successful result in connection with Dr. Theiler’s researches as to a remedy for East Coast fever. He had expected the dipping question to remain in abeyance during the present debate. It would have been better to deal with it in connection with the Estimates. The Government would propose a; scheme to enable farmers to be financially assisted in the construction of dipping-tanks. The object was to fight, not East Coast fever only, but to wage permanent war against the ticks. In Natal the value of dipping had been fully vindicated. Systematic and thorough dipping was most valuable as a preventive against East Coast fever. The disease had recently appeared near Harrismith. The cattle affected would be destroyed, but there was no fear of the disease spreading there, because, so far, it had only broken out on the Natal border. The destruction of lung-sick cattle had been criticised. Hon. members evidently were sceptical about the power of an immunised animal to infect others, but Dr. Theiler had convinced him that such infection was indeed possible; he, himself, had seen an ox that first had the disease eight years ago catch it again, as the result of a cold, after which it infected several other farms. The Bill provided, however, that only cattle actually suffering from the disease would be destroyed—not immunised cattle. Compensation would be paid so a to encourage owners to report outbreaks. Some hon. members had expressed their surprise at certain diseases being mentioned in the Bill, because they had never heard of them. He might point out that all the diseases in question were enumerated in the Stock Diseases Acts of the different Provinces. Nieuwe ziekte” and “sponsziekte” would be deleted—(hear, hear)—seeing that they were not dangerous. Comment had been made on the varying amounts of compensation, and he had to own that there were discrepancies, but the figures had to be taken over from existing legislation. The Select Committee would be able to alter the amounts, if it thought fit. The hon. member for Tembuland had advocated compensation for cattle suffering from East Coast fever. This would not be granted, but payment would be made for healthy cattle destroyed in infected districts, in order to a void the spread of the disease. With regard to the complaint made by the hon. member for Wodehouse, the Government some time ago notified the farmers that it was willing to supply the fencing if the farmers would erect it round that constituency. At first, the offer was refused; but a recent meeting decided to accept it. Fines had been called excessive, but it should be remembered that the Bill mentioned maximum amounts only. He did not think a first offender would ever be mulcted in the maximum fine, which would be inflicted only after repeated contraventions by a man who proved himself a danger to his surroundings. Imprisonment, without the option of a fine, would be resorted to only where ticks were will fully carried from farm to farm, with the express object of spreading the disease. Same people had gone so far as to say that the culprits should be hanged where such an offence was committed. Hon. members objected to the system of government by regulation; were they not aware of the fact that laws were usually carried out by means of regulations? The public interest was safeguarded by the provision that all regulations would have to be laid on the table. In a country the size of South Africa, with its widely varying conditions, it was impossible to make one and the same law applicable to every nook and corner. He did not believe in local bodies to advise the Government. The Transvaal Boarde, reference to whom had been made, did not advise the Government. They advised the farmers, and did very good work of a peripatetic nature. The more advisory bodies, in the ordinary sense, the more trouble, and any tendency in that direction was calculated to weaken Parliamentary authority. He was going to have a systematic farm to farm visitation, so that farmers could be advised as to the measures required for the eradication of scab. Clause 22, throwing the onus of proof on to the farmer, had been objected to. Who ought to bear that onus? On a disease breaking out, the Bill provided for its being reported. Naturally, if a man were prosecuted because his action had led to other people’s flocks becoming infected, it was for the accused to prove absence of neglect on his part. There was no other way out of the difficulty. If they had to deal exclusively with farmers sincerely desirous of co-operation and stamping out of the disease, clause 22 would have been superflous, but certain people would always continue to break the law.

The motion for the second reading was then agreed to, and the Bill read a second time.

moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee. He stated that he would mention the names of the committee later.

seconded.