from A. P. J. van der Poel, teacher, Education Department.

from H. Hill, Principal, Boys’ School, Robertson.

War Casualties and Injuries Commission, Transvaal.

List of all appointments made in the public service since the 51st May, 1910, with particulars as to increase of salary, persons retrenched or dismissed; and pensions or gratuities paid.

moved, seconded by Mr. WALTON: That the House at its rising adjourn until tomorrow (Saturday), at 2 o’clock p.m.

Agreed to.

moved that the resolutions be adopted. He mentioned in regard to the proposals as to the amortisation of capital that there Were some mines which had what were called precarious lives. By that he meant, lives which it was impossible accurately to determine in advance. Provision was therefore being made for the owners of such mines to submit a basis of calculation. Then the amortisation would be on the basis of two, four, or seven years, as the owners calculated. The shorter the period, the greater would be the allowance for amortisation, and the Government tax would be proportionately less; but if the mine went on beyond the period calculated, the tax would thereafter, of course, be somewhat larger.

seconded.

moved an amendment that the resolutions be re committed to the Committee of Ways and Means, for the purpose of excluding coal from the tax. He wanted to move an amendment in committee the previous day, but the matter was hurried through, and before he knew where he was, the Chairman had reported the resolution.

said he could not accept the amendment. If they excluded coal, they would go on to exclude in and copper, and finally gold. At present coal was liable to a tax in the Transvaal of 1 per cent. on the gross value of the minerals mined. His proposal meant a reduction of that, particularly in relation to the smaller and poorer mines. The minimum tax would be one-eighth of what it was in the Transvaal now. But when a coal mine made a profit of 50 or 60 per cent., he did not think there could be reasonable objection to its paying 5 or 6 per cent.

In reply to Mr. T. WATT (Dundee),

said this was not an addition to the present taxation on coal. The present taxes would disappear.

did not see why coal should be taxed at all. It was an article which ought to be made as cheap as possible, for it lay at the basis of every industry. If the amount to be received from the tax was so small, why should they impose it at all?

said he would second the amendment moved by the hon. member for Middelburg (Mr. Du Toit), and would go so far as to suggest that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Hull) should make a remission up to 5 per cent. on any copper mine or low mineral mine. He would also suggest that there be a sliding scale, fixed on a proper basis. He thought the House should recognise the necessity of tapering down. If a mine was earning 50, 60, 70, 80, or 90 per cent. profit, taxation should be imposed accordingly.

said that the argument of the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Quinn) was not well-founded, from the point of view of cheap coal. If they put the proposed tax upon the coal, it would not affect the price of coal one farthing. He asked the Minister to note the treatment of the small workers. In the resolution as it stood, all profits over £1,000 were to be taxed. He understood from the Treasurer the other day, however, that in addition to the allowances of £750, profits not exceeding £1,000 would not be taxed; but as the resolution was framed at present, a man making £1,200 would have to pay 10 per cent.

said that it seemed to him that this tax was going to increase the price of coal to the consumer, or at any rate, prevent a reduction of the price of coal. Everybody knew that owing to the large coal deposits in this country and the small market available in the country, the profits on coal mining were small. He knew of coal mining companies which were paying no dividends, and others which were paying only very small dividends. The effect of this tax would be to increase the burden on the companies. It would also affect existing contracts, and would make it difficult for the companies to carry on. The coal industry in this country was already taxed very severely through the railway rates. The policy in regard to the railway rates was suicidal. The one hope of the coal industry lay in finding an outlet overseas, but that outlet would never come so long as they had such high railway rates.

The export is increasing.

said that the present time was not a good time to put an additional imposition upon the coal mining companies. He strongly urged that this fresh taxation should not be imposed. If the Government could not, however, agree to the amendment, but would agree to reduce the railway rates, then he would be satisfied. As long as high rates prevailed it would be wrong to impose fresh taxation.

said he did not think they would get more than a few hundred pounds out of this tax. Referring to the river diggers, he pointed out that, already they were paying more than three per cent. on the total amount of their finds. If he could not persuade the Minister of Finance to exempt these diggers altogether from this tax, he would ask him to go one step further, and, as he had agreed to exempt profits not exceeding £1,000 a year from this tax, would be not exempt profits which did not exceed £2,000? That would be a substantial benefit to these people.

said he wished to associate himself with the hon. member for Jeppes (Mr. Creswell). He could not follow the argument used that by taxing the profits on coal they would be increasing the price of coal. Prices were regulated by two things: the market and the cost of production. Generally speaking, when they talked of taxing profits they must not allow that the profits on one thing were more valuable than the profits on another. The profits received from gold were not more valuable than the profits received from coal, and it, was not to say if profits were taxed the cost of an article would be increased or decreased.

said the fact that a number of members had pleaded for a reduction of this tax—a very small reduction, of course— showed them how serious the matter of the coal supply was. The serious thing in connection with it was the railway rates, and if hon. members would only understand that coal was the manure of industry, they would vote for the reduction of the tax on coal, and see that, it was as cheap as possible. There were very few rewards in coal mining. Often they had to depart from good business principles to keep a coal mine going. If they were going to diminish the very few rewards there were, there was not going to be much encouragement for enterprise. Coal was a very big asset in the country. There was no bigger, and they must make use of that asset. If they were going to have industries they must have power, and they had the finest coalfield in the world. Hon. members interested in agriculture said that they should carry their guano even at a loss. In the same way they should carry their coal even at a loss to the railways. They heard the other day of the reductions to be made in the railway rates, but everybody knew that they could reduce the rates on coal without losing a penny, and, by so doing, reduce the cost of coal by 5s. per ton. If they were going to have industries in this country they had to bring down the cost of coal.

said he would like to ask the Minister for Finance how much profit really the Government wanted to make? The position was that the Government collected from the railway rate on coal about £100,000 a month, and if they took the profit the Government made out of coal, it was some £600,000 or £700,000 a year. Surely when the Government derived a profit of £700,000 a year from coal they would be satisfied. The Minister for Railways had referred to the export of coal, but, owing to the large railway rates, South African coal was at a disadvantage. Indian coal could be Landed at 16s. 6d. per ton and Australian at 17s. 6d., but Natal or Transvaal coal cannot be landed at under 19s. That raised the whole question of running the railways on business lines. Eighteen trucks a day, representing 360 tons a day ran empty to the coast. Surely anybody with sense would put something in those trucks, even if it was coal. If that was done at a small rate people would be able to get cheaper coal. In view of the fact that the Government already made a profit of £600,000 or £700,000 a year from coal, surely that was enough. They should leave coal alone, and not bring in any vexatious taxes to put on it.

said the coal industry in Natal had to exist mainly on export, and could not secure contracts for overseas unless the railway rate was a very low one. Natal coal mining was also exceedingly dangerous, because of the explosive gases in the mines, which greatly enhanced the cost of mining. Therefore they should have cheap railway rates for their coal to the coast. He hoped the Minister would not tax coal further. He should rather take off the tax already on it

said that the coal mines of Natal would pay a great deal more than under the old royalty system. They had something like three millions invested in coal mines in Natal, and the result of that tax would be that the average dividend would be reduced something like 8 per cent,

pointed out that the tax was one on the profits of colliery companies; and it appeared to him that the proposals of the Minister of Finance would be a material decrease on the royalty which the collieries had to pay to the Natal Government.

said that he would like to impress upon this—as he had done before—that that tax was a tax upon the profits, and would be levied when all working expenses and amortisation of capital had been deducted, He did not propose to levy a tax until a clear profit, above and beyond these deductions, amounting to £1,000, had been made. The figures which he had got showed a substantial amount of profit made by the coal mines, of £500,000 per year, and were hon. members prepared to say that such concerns should be exempted from a mining profits tax? If that tax was not levied, the existing taxation would remain, which was infinitely more stringent on small owners. He agreed with the hon. member for Pretoria (Sir P. Fitzpatrick) with what he had said about the great majority of coal mines only making a small profit; so that they would fall under the taxation scheme of 2½ and 5 per cent. It was the principle he was contending for.

The amendment was negatived.

The report was adopted.

appointed the Minister of Finance (Mr. Hull) and the Chairman of Committees (Mr. Van Heerden) to draft a Bill embodying these resolutions.

brought up the Bill in question amid cheers.

The Bill was read a first time.

moved that the following be a new clause to follow clause 5 (a) It shall be lawful for the Council of any division in which this Act has been duly proclaimed to be in force to appoint out of the funds at its disposal one or more inspectors for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of sections 4 and 5 of this Act, and upon such appointment every such inspector shall be invested with all the powers and subject to all the duties conferred and imposed (as the case may be) by the said sections upon Field-cornets Justices of the Peace, sheep inspectors, and police officers, (b) A sum of one-half of any amount which the Council concerned may expend as salary for an inspector or inspectors appointed under the provisions of this Act shall be paid to such Council from and out of the public revenue of the Union in accordance with regulations to be published in the “Gazette,” provided, however, that in no case the amount so contributed shall exceed £80 per annum.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill as amended was adopted.

moved that the Bill be read a third time.

seconded.

moved that the salary of the High Commissioner be reduced by £500. The mover pointed out that the salary of the High Commissioner was £5,000, added to which was an annual allowance of £1,000. That seemed to be a pretty tall order. The Cape Agent-General in London used to get £2,000, which was the sum received by the Canadian and New Zealand High Commissioners, while the United States Ambassador in London received only £3,500. “There is,” added the mover, “no dual capital business about this.” (Laughter.)

pointed out that Sir Richard Solomon’s pay as Agent-General for the Transvaal in London was £3,000, but his pension of £1,000 was suspended. The representative of the Commonwealth of Australia was paid £3,000 a year, but he also had an allowance of £2,000 per annum. The post of High Commissioner was one of very great importance, and they would like to see it filled with credit. Supposing Sir Richard Solomon was not High Commissioner, then the Government would still have to pay him £1,000 a year as pension, and would have to pay somebody else £3,000 a year plus an allowance for acting as High Commissioner. The Union was really gaining £1,000 a year by the appointment of Sir Richard Solomon. As to the Austrian Commonwealth, in addition to the High Commissioner each of the Australian States was represented by an Agent-General in London.

said he felt that the question of the salaries of individual officers was an unpleasant one to discuss publicly. He thought the remuneration proposed to be paid to the High Commissioner was a fair one, as the position would be a much more important one, and a more expensive one to occupy than that of the Transvaal Agent-Generalship. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the House would agree to the vote.

said he would remind the committee that the High Commissioner’s Bill made the salary a permanent one. The fact of the holder of the office being Sir Richard Solomon made no difference. It might be John Smith next time.

asked for information regarding the item “officers redundant in consequence of amalgamation of office, £1,072.”

In reply to Mr. J. G. MAYDON (Durban, Greyville),

said it was very difficult to indicate what would be done with officers who were redundant, and say whether the Government could give them work. One very capable Natal officer had found a position. With regard to the rest, they were still an effective staff; but he hoped by the time the next Estimates had come before the House to effect considerable reductions.

asked a question with reference to the Trades Commissioner.

said that they had no room for the Natal and Cape Trades Commissioners in London, and he proposed to use the Cape man in London, and to bring the Natal Commissioner out here to act in concert with the man in London, for the purpose of pushing South Africa.

withdrew his amendment.

The vote was agreed to.

moved to omit all the items under vote 27 and submit others (pages 327-9 “Votes and Proceedings.”)

Agreed to.

referred to the necessity of a Pensions Committee, and said that the hundreds of petitions took a long time for consideration. The sooner such a committee met the better. He also asked if the Government intended to introduce a Pensions Act for South Africa, dealing with the whole question of pensions. Had the Government considered this matter?

said he thought that the Government might frame lists of new pensioners.

said that it was his intention to show the new pensioners in the next Estimates. He had already laid a return on the table showing the pensions granted in the different Provinces He went on to say that the matter of a pension law was at present being considered by the Treasury.

What about the Pensions Committee?

said he was going into the matter.

referred to he Transvaal Pension Fund, and the matter of National Bank shares. He wanted to ask the Treasurer if he had re-transferred those shares to the Treasury, or whether they were still held on account of the Pension Fund?

said he would explain what had taken place. In the Transvaal they passed a law for the payment of pensions to Civil Servants. The law was delayed somewhat, with the result that the Transvaal Government found itself indebted for a, large sum of money to the Pension Fund. Well, the law also provided that the funds should be invested by the Government, and should bear interest at 4 per cent. Well, the Transvaal Government found itself in possession of National Bank shares to the value of £150,000, and so instead of paying over £150,000 in cash to the Pension Fund, the Government transferred these shares. They, as a Government, guaranteed that these shares should always represent a face value of £150,000, and, furthermore, that a dividend of 4 per cent. would be returned. The stock was guaranteed by the Government, and he thought that the dividend would return more than 4 per cent.

referred to the Act, and said that it did not permit the investment of money in the shares of any company. If the Minister of Finance were right in his contention, he could invest money in a goldmining company, so long as it was guaranteed by the Government. He maintained that the transaction was quite illegal.

said the hon. member’s point would be a good one if it were the case that the superannuation fund was in possession of £150,000 in cash, and if the Minister took that money and invested it in the shares of a company. But that was not the case. The position was: that the Government, instead of transferring £150,000 from the Excheauer account to this fund, handed over these assets, with a guarantee.

agreed with the Minister of Finance that this was different from using public money to buy shares with. Proceeding the hon. member said that he did not think the Secretary to the Treasury should be a director of the National Bank. The Government did business with the bank, and it was the duty of the official in question to get the best terms he possibly could from the bank, but for him to be one of the directors of the bank meant that he was banker and customer.

said his object in placing the Secretary to the Treasury on the board of directors of the bank was not to look after the interests of the bank, but to look after the interests of the Government, which was the largest shareholder in the bank and one of the largest customers. It was a purely temporary appointment, which could be revoked if the House wished.

said he thought some official other than the Secretary to the Treasury should be appointed. A director of the bank was bound to consider the interests of all the shareholders, and not only of the Government. The Secretary to the Treasury should be kept to look after the interests of the Government.

thought it would be inconvenient to discuss the matter now, as it was being considered by the Public Accounts Committee. The hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger) was a little hard on the Minister of Finance about the transaction in connection with the National Bank shares and the pension fund. It seemed to him to be a perfectly bona fide one. The Government had shares in an institution which, he believed, paid 7 per cent. It would be an uncommonly good thing if they could be sure of the security, to invest their pension fund in a concern paying 7 per cent., and probably that was the object in doing this. The pension fund had the Government behind it. The Minister had done his best in the interests of the pension fund, and he (Mr. Merriman) thought the House might be satisfied with the Auditor-General having drawn attention to it.

said the point of the hon. member for Cape Town was as to whether this was legal or not. The Minister should have got the advice of the law officers of the Crown on the matter.

replying to Sir Geo. Farrar (Georgetown), said that the war pensions and gratuities voted by the Transvaal Parliament figured under the heading of “War Pensions and Gratuities, £80,000.”

asked whether the sum had been paid out or was being paid out?

It is in the course of being paid out. Part of it had been paid out.

The vote was agreed to.

moved reductions of £250 and £2,500 for the Cape and Transvaal respectively.

This was agreed to.

said he thought this was the proper time to draw attention again to a subject which had been debated in that House before, and that was: the inequity of the grants to the different Provincial Councils. It was all very well to talk about bringing in Provincialism, but the surest way of bringing in Provincialism was to have an inequity of grants. They knew the position in regard to education—that the State paid for the whole of education in the Transvaal, and only two-thirds in the Cape. It would be seen that the population of the Cape, in round numbers, was 600,000 people, and its contribution for roads and local works was £80,000. The Transvaal, with a population of 300,000, got £605,000 for local works and roads. That must strike everybody as being a most unequal distribution. As it was put down in the Estimates, it came out of the revenue of the Union, so that they contributed per capita, not per stirpes. How could it be defended on the basis of justice, or the Union spirit, or anything else? He said it was grossly unjust. When he raised this question before he was told that these extra points to the Transvaal were in the nature of re-votes of sums allocated by the Transvaal Parliament out of their funds. Under those circumstances, they ought to be, he maintained, a charge against those funds. The Prime Minister and the Minister for Education had been under the impression that the moneys were allocated out of the funds, until the Treasurer came in and said that they were quite mistaken, and that they were going to come out of the revenue.

referring to the Estimates so far as they concerned the Free State Province, said that the Minister of Finance had told the House that they were not dealing with loan funds, but if they looked at the Orange Free State Estimates they would find on page 24 an item for bridges amounting to £103,000. Now, he wished to point out that that was money which was voted by the late Orange River Colony Parliament purely out of loan funds. If he understood the Minister of Finance (Mr. Hull) correctly, it was intended to put forward these Estimates as arising out of revenue balances from the Free State. Well, he (the speaker) thought that the Minister had got mixed up in that vote, revenue and loan funds, and had left out the amount for bridges, which was specially voted, namely £12,000. Proceeding, Mr. Botha referred to the sale of the National Bank of the Orange River Colony by the late Orange River Colony Government and how the money derived from the sale was apportioned, and said that the point he wanted to make was that the Free State Province was the one Province in the Union that could not be blamed for reckless expenditure on public works. If any Province had ever been parsimoniously dealt with in regard to public works, it was the Free State, and the first opportunity they had of spending money was when Parliament sold the National Bank. He thought that if any Province was entitled before Union to devote funds for Provincial purposes, that Province was the Free State. When they passed the vote for expenditure out of the proceeds from the sale of the National Bank, they thought they were only putting themselves in relatively the same position as the other Provinces, and it never entered his head, and he was sure that it never entered the head of any member of the late Orange River Colony Parliament, that it would ever become necessary for this House to re-vote the amount derived from the sale of the National Bank. The position he took up was that the money in the Free State should have been spent in order to put them on more or less the same footing with the other Provinces. Instead of that they would have to give compensation to the other Provinces, Natal and Cape, for the expenditure of their (the Free State’s) money in their own Province. He appealed to every member representing the Free State to bear him out when he said that they had no idea in the Free State that the money which they had voted would have to be re-voted by the Union Parliament. They claimed that they had a perfect right to use the £248,000, which was derived from the sale of the National Bank, without reference to the Union Parliament and without having to give compensation to other Provinces for the expenditure of that money. It appeared to him that there was an idea abroad that the Union was giving them this money, but that was not the case. What had happened was that the Union had taken their money, and was now giving it back to them. The position had become so hopeless that he had to appeal to his friends in the Free State to assist him in this matter, because it was a question upon which the people in the Free State would feel very strongly, and would demand an explanation from their representatives in Parliament.

asked how much interest was being paid on the Natal and Cape public debts, and how much of the £35,000, on loan, had been redeemed.

complained of the difficulty to gather information from the votes and the Government. He might be particularly ignorant, but that was the reason why he asked for information. He wanted to exercise some sort of judgment on these figures. For instance, on page 25 of the Transvaal Estimates he found an item under “L,” “purchase of land and legal charges.” It was only a small matter, but it was the small items that made up the whole thing —(hear, hear)—and they wanted to understand what was going on in the country. He wanted to exercise some judgment, and could not because of the lack of information. He wished to enter his protest against the way these items were stated. He felt that he had not done his duty to the country, because he had had to let some large votes go through without understanding them. What was that item?

said that the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) had referred to the per capita basis of the Transvaal and the Cape, and alluded to what they in the Transvaal paid per capita. If he was going in for that policy they should let them work it out. He understood they were under Union, and had to consider the country as a whole. If they were going to work it out per capita he should give the Transvaal’s share, and it was the largest.

said that when the Minister of Finance replied he would like him to inform the House what steps the Government had taken to appoint the Statute Commission on the financial relationships of the Union. He thought that after a month the Government should have taken some steps, and it would be an advantage for the House to know what had been done.

said it was quite impossible for the Government to have the Provincial Estimates prepared by the Executive Committees, as laid down by the South Africa Act, because the Executives had not been appointed. The result would be that next year’s Provincial Estimates would be passed by the Government again. On the question of game preservation and fish protection, they had been told that the Provincial Estimates were based on exactly the same expenditure as last year. Apparently it was not so at all, for the Cape showed an increase of £300, the Transvaal £793, and Natal £953 on the estimates given for last year. The total expenditure in the Cape was £1,060, in the Transvaal £5,144, and in Natal £2,321, so that in the Cape they had an expenditure of only £1,000, notwithstanding they had large game preserves in the North-west, where they had valuable antelopes which should be preserved. They had no game ranges, and no attempt was made to preserve them. In Africa they had the richest fauna in the world, and it seemed a pity that the Minister of Finance could not see his way to increase that grant for the Cape. People were allowed to go in the North-west game areas without any serious attempt being made to stop them; and they lived on royal game. When they had cleared it out of one area they went to the next one, and cleared it out there. He hoped that the Government would see to that matter.

said that he would like to say to the hon. member for Pretoria North (Sir Thomas Cullman) that all they asked for was that, as it was out of general revenue that that money was being spent on public works—contributed by all parts of South Africa—they should be distributed over all parts of South Africa. If they took the estimates for roads, it was, he added, proposed to expend on maintenance, grants-in-aid, and new construction, £57,000 in the Cape, and £280,000 in the Transvaal. He knew that in the latter it was all done by the Government, whereas in the Cape they had local assistance, £150,000 being raised by the Divisional Councils; but they could not expect them in the Cape Province to keep on continuing that state of affairs. If they took schools, they had 80,000 white children in the Gape, and 50,000 in the Transvaal, the grants for schools in the Cape being £471,000, and in the Transvaal £459,000. The answer there was the same as that for the roads, but he only wanted to point out, and it should be pointed out, that they in the Cape Province could not expect that state of affairs to go on indefinitely. He did not blame the Minister of Finance for it, as it could not be helped, but he did wish to draw attention to these points. His own opinion was that local people should contribute for the upkeep of roads and maintenance of schools. As to the maintenance of buildings, he saw that only £1,950 was allowed in the Cape Province, to the £379,000 in the Transvaal, which did seem an extremely small sum for the Cape—barely £2,000.

pointed out that in the Cape the school buildings belonged to the School Boards, and as regards the money for school buildings, there was a different system in each Province. Pending a general rearrangement, the Treasurer had the other day made a statement with regard to a loan of £200,000, which would see them through for the present, and which would meet their more pressing needs for the present.

said that what they all felt was that no steps seemed to have been taken to bring about some other system with regard to the Cape Province. In the Cape the principle had always been: “Trust the people, and leave as much as you possibly can to them.” They in the Cape had never been accustomed to be spoon fed, and had always been encouraged to do these things for themselves: and it was a thing which had answered admirably in the past in regard to the economy of the work. (Mr. JAGGER: Hear, hear.) If it were left to the local people, they took good care to see that they had good value for their money. Dealing with hospitals and charities, the hon. member said that in the Cape they had been accustomed to leave it largely to local effort and to local people to find the money for these things; but in the Transvaal a different system prevailed, and much more public money was spent. In regard to the grants for hospitals they found a very great difference indeed. For instance, if they compared Port Elizabeth with Pretoria: he supposed Port Elizabeth was a bigger place than Pretoria—(Voices: “No”)—at any rate, it would serve as a good comparison—they found that the grant in aid of the hospital was £4,040 in the case of Port Elizabeth, and about three times as much for Pretoria. He wanted to drive home the necessity of the Provincial Councils being put upon a right footing. He would like to see the funds for various local requirements raised by the Provincial Councils. As long as the Councils received Union subsidies they would all expect to be treated alike. Mr. Baxter also expressed regret that the Financial Commission had not yet been appointed, and deplored the delay in paying the compensation to the capitals.

asked the Minister when it was likely that the Provincial Councils would be called together?

said he hoped that the balances from the Provinces would be spent for the specific purposes for which they had been voted. He objected to the Minister of Finance describing these balances as inheritances to the Union from the different Provinces. Several of the amounts were not inheritances, and he would call them trust money—money held by the Minister in trust to carry out the wishes of the four Provinces. They really did not belong to the Union as such.

said that the form in which they were voting these subsidies was general. He asked whether it was the intention that the Provincial Councils should be bound by the detailed allocations of sums contained in the Provincial Estimates, or were they to be at liberty to use the surplus in any way?

said that hon. members had frankly acknowledged that different systems had obtained in various Provinces in the matter of education, road making, bridge construction, etc., and surely nobody could imagine that it was possible for the Government to evolve a hard and fast scheme laying down some definite basis upon which these subsidies were to be granted to the Provincial Administrations. He had made it perfectly clear on several occasions that they had made no effort at all. They simply went to the Provincial Administrators and accounting officers, and asked them to submit their estimates on the old basis. In regard to the Financial Commission, the High Commissioner received instructions from the Government before he left that one of the steps that he should take when he arrived in London was to appeal to the British Government and see whether it was possible to at once obtain this Imperial officer who was to preside over the Commission. It was impossible for the Government, until the Commission had had an opportunity of examining the question, to say what the financial relations should be. The hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) had asked on what basis these allocations had been made. He could only say that they had been framed on the old basis. There was nothing novel or new about these estimates; they proceeded on the old lines, the only lines on which they could have proceeded. He went on to refer to a statement by the hon. member for Gape Town, who said that the balances should be spent in the Provinces from whence they came.

said that that was not what he did say.

said he understood the hon. member to say that he had no objection to the Transvaalers spending what came from the Transvaal. That was a principle to which he could not agree; it would not be difficult to say which Province would get the most on that principle. But he would point out that these allocations were made on the old lines. He had made an analysis, and he proposed to lay this upon the table. This give the exact position. This analysis showed the amount allowed for works and bridges in the Union and Provincial Estimates; the commitments at the date of Union and works since authorised. This statement-showed all the commitments on May 31, and the amount entered into since that date. The Union commitments were estimated at £643,000, of which, on May 30, £181,000 had been spent. The Estimates now before the House dealt with a further expenditure of £388,000, in the form of re-votes. The non-commitments entered into by the Union Government were estimated to cost £71,000, for which provision had been made to the extent of £64,000 on the present Estimates. All the commitments of the Cape of Good Hope were comprised in these Estimates, except a sum of £93,000. The analysis also showed the amount on May 31, how much would be met during the next ten months, and how much during future years. He was sure it would show hon. members the exact position. The hon. member for Von Brandis (Mr. Nathan) had referred to an amount of £175,000 for the purchase of land. Most of this was for school sites, and they knew that in the Transvaal the Government had to find the whole of the money. Then he had been asked when the Provincial Councils were going to meet. They were waiting upon that House. So soon as this money was voted there would be a substantial reason for the Administrators to call the Councils together. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Mr. Walton) had raised an important question. He said that the subsidies had been given in globular sums, and he asked if it was possible for the Provincial Councils to alter any of these votes. By that he (the speaker) understood that he wanted to know if it was competent for them to vote money, set down for certain services, to different services. It was difficult to say at present what the Councils might or might not do, but he did not think it would be competent for them to apply an amount voted by this House for mads and local works to, say, education, or vice versa. Of course, in regard to the details of their work, the Provincial Councils might, perhaps, apply an amount specified for one sub-head to another sub-head; but-on the main heads they could not disturb the votes of the Parliament. Then, with reference to the question concerning the Free State Estimates, the framers of the Act of Union clearly contemplated that the proceeds of loans allocated to any Province for particular purposes should be safeguarded, and that they should be in the nature of trust funds, but that the rest of the money—the accumulations of the consolidated revenue fund’s—should be on a different footing— (Mr. MERRIMAN: “Oh!”)—and could be dealt with by the Union Parliament in any way it thought proper. That was the idea in drafting the Act, he thought. There was a broad distinction between loan funds allocated for specific purposes—and of course, railway and harbour funds—and other moneys. The loan funds allocated and the railway and harbour funds must not, under the Act, be used for other purposes. The Government was anxious to carry out the wishes and intentions of the various Parliaments not only in relation to the loan funds specially allocated, but also in respect of the balance of be cash they had in hand, and which they desired to be used for certain purposes.

said that the Minister had said that loan funds did not appear on the Estimates, but, as a matter of fact, there was an amount of £103,000 on the Estimates for the building of bridges in the Orange Free State, and a similar amount for that purpose was included in the allocation of £1,175,000 of loan funds authorised to be raised by the late Orange River Colony Parliament.

said he explained to the House the other day that a number of services, which some of the Provinces had intended to put upon loan, were really services which, in the opinion of the Government, ought to be put against revenue.

said the fact that these funds were allocated by the different Parliaments, of course, shut one’s mouth regarding the inequality of the grants as between the different Provinces; but why did these amounts appear as charged against the revenue of the year? When these were charged against the revenue of the year then the allocation should be made, according to the necessities of the Provinces, as adjudged by the House, and not according to the wishes of Parliaments which were now dead.

In reply to Mr. J. X. MERRIMAN (Victoria West),

said that the Appropriation Bill would be taken on Monday.

said that the point raised by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Mr. Walton) was met by section 89 of the South Africa Act.

The item was agreed to.

said that he saw no provision was made for Maritzburg and Bloemfontein, and he would like to ask the Minister whether it was his intention to make provision for the other capitals? He hoped that a very substantial amount would be paid to Cape Town for the great sacrifice it had made for Union.

No reply was given, and

The vote was agreed to.

asked for information regarding the vote of £21,900 (subsidy to ocean steamers coming to the port of Durban).

replied that it was to secure the visit of mail steamers to Durban.

asked if it could not go in the Harbour Estimates?

said he would transfer it to the Harbour Estimates if it was desired. (Hear, hear.)

The “miscellaneous” vote was agreed to.

said he wished to bring to the notice of the Minister that according to the Glen Grey Act, the holding of a man could not be increased in the Glen Grey district without an Act of Parliament. Most of the white traders had only one morgen of land, whereas in the Transkei they had five morgen. Formerly the traders had to pay £3 for a licence, but it had been raised to £8, and now to £12. In the Transkei the quitrent was £1 for the five morgen, and they paid £10 for a licence. The hardship on the traders in the Glen Grey district arose out of the fact that they had to pay somewhat more, but had only one morgen of land. They had applied for more land, and permission had been granted by the Allocation Board, but the provisions of the Act stood in their way. Some were not very energetic, but others were, and they were a lesson to the whole native population. It should be the duty of the Government to encourage these men in their agricultural enterprises. He hoped the Minister of Lands would take the matter into serious consideration, and even, if necessary, introduce a Bill to remedy this state of affairs.

asked the Minister to give the House some information about the item of £26,000 for the purchase of land. What land is it that it was proposed to buy, and what was the object for which it had been purchased? Also, he thought the House should know whether the land had actually been purchased, or whether it was only proposed to purchase? If it was a large matter, it would be more satisfactory if a schedule of what was proposed to be purchased, and the object of it, was laid on the table, because he thought it was somewhat unusual for the Government, without the authority of this House to spend money on land, and not give them any information regarding it.

said he would also like some information on the point.

said he wanted some information on the question of the settlements in the Transvaal. He had information which went to show that during the year 1909, 237 farms were disposed of in the Transvaal by Government, making an area of 296,030 morgen. A report on the matter by a Commission said that the land was divided among squatters, who got a precarious living mostly by hunting, and the land would not be developed in the next ten years. That was a serious statement, and he thought it was important that the Minister of Lands should give them some information on it.

said he also wanted some information, and that was regarding the system of the allotment of land in Natal. He understood that the Government had refused land to applicants below the age of 21 years. Under the poll tax law men over 18 years of age had to pay the poll tax, and under the Militia Act they were liable for service. It was felt to be a hardship that a youth of 18 years, though he was liable for all those services, was refused land under the land settlement scheme.

said that in regard to the first question, the Government had to carry out the laws of the different Provinces as they stood, but the matter which the hon. member had mentioned would receive attention. In regard to the purchase of land for £26,000, the greater part had been purchased before the Government came into office; a large part had been expended in the Transvaal for necessary purposes there, such as ground for school buildings, new offices, post offices, and other public works. As regards the question of land settlement, as the hon. member knew, that matter had also been done prior to the Government coming into office. Under the law of the Transvaal, the Laud Board had to consider these applications and exercise its discretion as to the best applicants. He was at present as far as possible, reducing all grants of land, and he would not vouch for the number of farms mentioned by the hon. member; the greater number were situated in parts of the country that were such that if white men could be induced to settle there it would be a benefit to the country. Like all those men who were not well off, all the conditions were not fulfilled, but he saw that as many as possible were fulfilled. In regard to what had been said about Natal, he regretted that he could not follow out the policy which had been followed out there for some, time, but the Government is not allowed to grant land to a minor unless special provisions had been made. There were numerous applications, which had been passed by the Land Board as desirable applicants—able-bodied men above the age of 21, many of whom were married—and they had not been able to help all of those yet. He laid it down as a policy that it would be unfair to grant land to minors who could not go on the land themselves when they had all these other applicants still to deal with.

said he found that persons in Zululand wore holding more land than they were entitled to Their explanation was that they were holding the ground as trustees for their minor children.

replied that he had not thought it his duty at the commencement of Union to rake up things done by the late Colonial Parliaments. He could give hon. members the assurance that he was not going to deal with this case himself.

suggested that the Minister of Lands might detach one of his 85 clerks—(laughter)—to prepare a return.

They are all kept busy. (Laughter.)

They are bound to be busy, even if they have nothing else to do but to write letters to one another. (Laughter.)

Proceeding, he asked that a full statement be prepared showing approximately the quantity of Crown lands in the different Provinces at the disposal of the Government; also an abstract of the land laws of each Province, so that the House might know the mode of disposing of Crown land. The local Board had nothing to do with the Settlement Board, which— observed Mr. Merriman sarcastically—had been a remarkably successful thing. The Settlement Board had spent £1,200,000 in putting 400 settlers on land

said he would be very pleased to give the information, but he deprecated the questioner’s references to the number of clerks in the Lands Office. By getting stereotyped expressions often repeated with regard to the Civil Service, people began to believe the there was something in the assertions. The Civil Service Commission was busy, and he could give the right hon. gentleman the assurance that so far as the Orange Free State was concerned it was down to absolute bedrock so far as regarded economy of staff.

asked for information regarding the item, “Land Board, fees and expenses, £3,502.”

read the following advertisement, which, he said had appeared very prominently in a newspaper with a very large circulation: “Free Farms Granted.—160 acres granted to every settler by the Western Australian Government in the best part of the country. Advances to every settler up to £650. Half passage money paid. Twenty years allowed for payment of any land purchased over the 160 acres free. Fencing materials granted on long terms. Thoroughbred stock issued at cash price by Government, and every possible assistance given to settlers. Climate and soil unsurpassed in the world. Wanted, a number of men to form a party for farming purposes on co-operative lines. Capital recommended, from £200.” Continuing, Mr. Struben said that no less than ten persons had left in the last three weeks for Western Australia on the strength of the information of one of them who had visited Australia to inspect the land.

said that a great number of people had recently left for the new goldfields in Western Australia.

suggested that the information asked for by Sir Geo. Farrar might be included in the return requested by Mr. Merriman. The functions of the Land Board were purely advisory.

suggested that the Land Board should prepare an annual report.

drew attention to certain abuses in connection with the allotment of Government land in the Waterberg district. He added that he would hand the letter containing the particulars to the Minister.

said he would be glad if that course were adopted.

The item was slightly amended and agreed to.

complained that the Minister had made an entirely inadequate provision for the irrigation development of the country. He hoped when the next Estimates were brought before the House a more liberal provision would be made. He especially regretted to observe the decrease of the vote under the heads of “reconnaissance surveys, and preparation of irrigation projects” and “hydrographic survey,” Dr. Smartt paid a tribute to the excellent work which was being done by the Director of Irrigation, Mr. Kanthack. He added that we had got enormous irrigation possibilities in this country, though he did not claim that those possibilities were of the magnitude of the works in India and the United States. He thought it was the duty of the Government to take one or two of these large State works in hand, and carry them out, and he thought that the House Would be prepared to vote a reasonable amount of money for the purpose.

completely agreed with the hon. member for Fort Beaufort. The amount on the Estimates, viz., £8,500, was trifling, in view of the importance of the subject. Much had been said about irrigation, but the Policy never got beyond the platform and documentary stage. The next Estimates should make more liberal provision. In Europe farmers could count on rain, which was only possible in some parts of South Africa. In other parts irrigation was essential, though the soil was good. The country was still in the making, and it was useless talking about either a white man’s country or closer settlement unless they were prepared to push forward irrigation works. A farm of ten acres was large enough to support a family provided irrigation was resorted to. Oudtshoorn had progressed wonderfully, but, then, people had bestirred themselves there. When he was a child the district was poverty-stricken, because at that time the people did not work. Irrigation greatly increased the market value of the land. Thirty-three morgen had been sold for £10,000, and the water itself commanded large prices. Every pound the Government spent on irrigation was worth three sovereigns, yet one asked in vain for expenditure on so laudable an object, though there appeared to be money enough for less deserving purposes. South Africa would have been far ahead of its present position if only previous Governments had applied part of the mining revenue to the development of the country. £300,000 per annum was not too much to ask for. But they should not make a start in the northern parts of the Union, or indeed anywhere, unless the water supply was assured. A commencement should be made in places where people knew what irrigation meant. It might be desirable in the North to bore for water, but water obtained in that way would never do for irrigation; it was too expensive, and would only serve for cattle farming and similar objects, which might be just the very thing for the North. He advocated a final survey in the Oudtshoorn district, so as to establish the quantity of land that could be irrigated. Money lent by the Government in that district would return a handsome interest. It was a small district, but it carried a large population, simply because it utilised surface water, whereas hardly anybody lived along the Orange River, because the enormous quantities of available water there were not being utilised. Water was the very soul of South Africa.

supported the previous speaker. The vote was entirely inadequate. He had nothing against Oudtshoorn, but there were other parts of the country equally entitled to a share of the irrigation vote, and equally suitable. In the Transvaal not a single irrigation scheme of importance had materialised Dry-land farming was an excellent thing, but in some places irrigation could accomplish far more. He was opposed to doles, but where the people were eager to help themselves by borrowing money for irrigation purposes they should be assisted, provided it was shown on inquiry that beneficial results were likely to ensue. There should be a specification of works already surveyed, though the Government should certainly not stop there. They should continually be on the look-out for the most suitable tracts of land. He particularly regretted the fact that the vote for hydrographical surveys had been cut down, instead of increased.

said that it was impossible to do too much for irrigation. He dissented from the standpoint of the hon. member for Oudtshoorn with regard to the North. Marico could carry a much larger population if the available water supply were taken advantage of. The district had large irrigation possibilities. So far from being especially suited for the coastal districts, irrigation was one of the very best methods for the development of the interior.

said that the hon. member for Oudtshoorn had rightly referred to irrigation as a “platform policy.” The engineers were competent men, and were doing their best, but there were only two of them in the whole of the Eastern Province, and the applications for surveys were so numerous that this provision was altogether inadequate. He advocated the appointment of additional engineers.

supported the previous speakers, and trusted the Government would see their way to increasing the vote very materially. They should likewise provide a sum for compensating some sixteen hundred inhabitants of the Klip River Valley (Transvaal), whose water had been diverted by pumping operations. The Rand Water Board had tapped the subterranean sources of their supply, and in consequence of that action those people had had their means of livelihood taken away. A Commission of Inquiry had been appointed, but the cattle would starve while the grass was growing, and the persons interested should either be bought out or assisted in some other manner.

said that irrigation had been dealt with in far too niggardly a manner, taking into consideration the other directions in which money was being spent freely. In his district he had never even met any engineers, though it had a vast quantity of surface water and splendid agricultural possibilities.

referred to the Riet River irrigation scheme, near Bloemfontein. Much could be done, he was advised, by developing that scheme.

strongly urged the starting of irrigation works in the South-western districts.

said that he was glad to hear that hon. members opposite had spoken in favour of increasing the production of the country, and that could not be done without irrigation. The Government had not been in office long enough to do anything yet in regard to irrigation, and he would like to ask the Minister whether any fresh legislation would be introduced by the Government dealing with the matter during the present session. He would like to know whether there was or was not going to be a departure from the system at present in vogue in the Cape Province? In the past Government irrigation works had not been all that they should have been, but he was glad to see that things were better now. He desired to know what policy the Government was going to adopt in regard to that important matter? It was only by co-operating that they would be able to irrigate on a sufficiently large scale.

said that he made no excuse for rising, for next to Oudtshoorn, the district he represented had done as much for irrigation without the assistance of the Government as any other part of the Cape Province, if not the whole of South Africa. The hon. member went on to speak of the Nels River dam, which, he said, had so often been referred to at elections that it had come to be known as “election dam.” Ultimately in 1866, the then member for Oudtshoorn, the present member for Cape Town, Harbour (Sir H. Juta) had been successful in getting £50,000 placed on the Estimates. Some £4,000 had been spent in fruitless research for a certain kind of stone which no one with the least knowledge of the locality would have expected to find there; and in 1899 the Act had been withdrawn. The people of Calitzdorp were prepared to build the dam if the Government was prepared to assist them; but at present there was absolutely no chance of the dam being constructed. The matter was a very important one for the district, and the only solution of the problem of obtaining suitable drinking water there was the construction of those works. Typhoid was breaking out year after year. The papers were in the office of the Minister of Lands, and every part of the scheme had been before the Government from time to time, and he hoped that something would be done

said that he hoped the Minister would make it clear on the next Estimates why certain surveys had been made, because in his district surveys had been made on farms, probably in connection with irrigation schemes, but which had caused uneasiness amongst the owners, as they did not know what they were for. People were anxious lest the Government desired to expropriate land on its own terms.

said that requests had been made from prosperous districts for water schemes, but he hoped that before these were granted less favoured districts would be seep to. The hon. member caused some amusement by saying that he thought the Minister of Lands could be compared with a big pump, to which all came asking for a pail of water. The Karoo should be considered first, because it was the great Thirst Land.

thought that he was in the same boat as the hon. member who had just spoken. If there was a place in the Orange Free State which needed water, it was Boshof and Jacobsdal. There were good rivers in the vicinity, such as the Vaal, Modder, and Riet Rivers, where irrigation works “of the first water” could be constructed. He could not agree with those hon. members who wanted such works carried out on a large scale; and his opinion was that as far as possible they must construct works oh a small scale. Every farmer should be enabled to have his own dam.

said he was extremely glad to note that there was such a vast amount of enthusiasm on the subject. All that hon. members had to do was to assist him in bringing pressure to bear on the Minister of Finance, who had the sinews of war. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He fully admitted that irrigation was one of the most important questions affecting the future of South Africa. He was all in favour of promoting a large number of small schemes, and trusted that he would be able to obtain sufficient funds from a loan to assist every farmer who could show good prospects, so that dams and boreholes might be made. He looked to co-operation among farmers for the realisation of this principle. He also admitted that the sooner something was done the better it would be, but he could not do everything at once, and the main question presenting itself to his department was; can a case for a sound investment be made out? It would seriously affect the very cause hon. members had at heart if they set to work prematurely, worked unsystematically, risked disappointments, and so jeopardised the future prospects of irrigation. He was convinced that the Chief Engineer and his assistants in the Transvaal were doing good work, and he hoped the House would back him up if, at a later stage, he asked for large sums. No one was more enthusiastic than he was. In the Free State they had started on a email scale, but on a sound basis. He thanked the hon. member for Oudtsboorn for drawing attention to what had been accomplished in a district that had had so much experience of irrigation, and whore it had been clearly shown what could be accomplished. However, he was not going to confine his attention to districts such as Oudtsboorn. It was the Government’s bounden duty to assist more arid tracts of land as well. In any case, they were not going to let their enthusiasm outrun their discretion. There would be no undue haste, because in the past money had been wasted on the conception of expensive schemes that had led to nothing. He could assure the hon. member for Ermelo that there was nothing of a disquieting nature in the hydrographical and reconnaissance surveys. The former was undertaken as a preliminary measure after rains. It was necessary to ascertain the quantity of the rainfall, the extent of evaporation, how much was drawn into the soil, how much ran away, etc. He also explained the nature of the reconnaissance surveys, and considered that both branches of the department’s work were of the utmost use for the purpose of determining how far the Government could go in drafting schemes and making advances. The Klip River question was being considered; Government would have to take steps, because there was not water enough for both the Witwatersrand and the farmers along the river. It was the settled policy of the Government not to give doles, but to afford real assistance to mining, as well as to agriculture.

The vote was agreed to.

suggested that an index should be prepared of title deeds showing what servitudes existed on them. This would be useful in the ease of water rights.

said the Cape Town Deeds Office was far too small.

said he would make inquiries into the matter of the preparation of an index of title deeds. If the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger) would promise not to accuse the Government of undue extravagance as to buildings or otherwise—(laughter)—he would take into serious consideration the erection of a fireproof building for the Cape Town Deeds Office. He was shocked to see how deeds were housed in the Surveyor-General’s Department in Cape Town. Of course, they had Parliament, and Parliament might be shocked at schemes which might cost more than members thought was right. (Laughter.)

The vote, slightly altered, was agreed to.

asked if the result was yet known of the inquiry into the shooting of natives in German South-west Africa. He also wished to know if the promised Bill with regard to native labour agents would be brought before the House this session, and, if so, would it be published in time to enable those interested to express their views on it?

asked if any information was available as to whether coloured people were still proceeding to German South-west Africa?

said the House was entitled to know something of the native policy the Government intended to pursue. One could not deduce any coherent policy from the action of the Government so far. He could not understand whether that policy aimed either at the fusion or separation of the white and black races. Was it the Minister’s principal duties to safeguard the interests of the natives? He could not understand that it was the hon. gentleman’s duty to induce natives to seek employment on the Rand gold mines, when he saw the high death-rate that prevailed amongst the natives there. There was a death-rate among natives from Basutoland of 30 per 1,000. For the last three years there had been a rising death-rate among the natives from the Cape. If the Minister was administering native affairs in the interests of the natives, how could he reconcile their interests with encouraging and aiding the importation of natives from outside this country to serve under an indenture system? Was it in the interests of the Union to aid and abet a system which congregated natives in huge masses in our industrial centres? Surely they, as white people, must recognise that they were here for good, and if they were here for good, they must do as much of their own work as possible. He thought it was about time that the Union of South Africa took some definite policy for itself, and agreed on either the separation or fusion of the races.

asked a question in regard to the payment of compensation in respect of the natives killed in German South-west Africa.

said that he should like to associate himself to a certain extent with some of the remarks that had fallen from the hon. member for Jeppes. He was not, however, so sanguine in regard to expecting the Government to lay down a native policy. He did not think a native policy for this country was going to be produced by laying some hard-and-fast scheme on the table. Any Government that was responsible for the affairs of the Union at the present time, it seemed to him, must have before its eyes, as the most urgent problem in front of the country, this so-called native question. This was not a native question; it was a question of the relations between the natives and the white people of this country. The native policy had hitherto been one of drift. In the Cape they might have had a regular system, but, if so, it had not commended itself other parts of South Africa.

said he did not think many of them would look upon the introduction of this question at the present stage as a nuisance. His trouble was this: he could not, and he had not, been able to find anyone who could, suggest even the beginning of a policy likely to lead to the results which were desired ay the member for Jeppes. They were told chat the way they were going on at present meant either separation or fusion. He did not think that followed at all. “If it is possible,” added the hon. member, “to separate the races and at the same time to do justice no the natives, well, in the name of all that is holy, let us know how you propose to do it.”

said he did not agree with what had been said altogether that there was no plan, and certainly, like the hon. member for Fordsburg, he did not think that coming in, and merely putting a scheme on the table, they would have a policy to follow for the future. He submitted that the hon. member for Jeppes was quite correct when he said that there was no alternative to either fusion or separation. If they started in the direction indicated they would only be accentuating their troubles. They could not stop the fusion of the races in South Africa, while the fusion of the races went on in the North. He suggested an International Conference to define a policy; they should not continue this policy of drift. All trades were in a state of chaos so far as the coloured man was concerned, and as this was the most important matter Parliament had to consider, he thought it time that they argued the question, and got one another’s views.

said they should hesitate to bring forward this matter on the floor of the House at the present time. They should have time to consider each other, and each other’s methods. He did not believe in the question being brought forward at such a time. He had strong views on the matter, but he would hesitate to put them forward at the present moment. He denied that nobody had suggested a solution of this great problem; the great statesman of South Africa suggested that there should be equal opportunity for the native. The native and the coloured people were the working men of South Africa, and not the few hundreds represented by the Labour members of the House. The idea of absolute segregation is absolutely unworkable in South Africa. They could not entertain a policy of separation because it could not be done in South Africa. He thought it out of place at that stage to carry on a debate on the great issues of the native question.

said that he had received from the British Consul a report dealing with the recent occurrence in German Southwest Africa. It appeared that the natives employed on this line had made several attempts to have their grievances remedied. They had complained of the shortage of pay, bad accommodation, half rations, unsympathetic treatment of the sick, and a grievance with regard to the remission of money to relatives. The men made ineffectual attempts to get these grievances remedied, and at last struck work on September 29. They started for Windhoek to discuss their grievances, but on the way they were persuaded to return to work through the promises of the Magistrate. It appeared that the trouble really started over the refusal of the natives to hand over three spokesmen to the military, who were servants of the company, without orders from the civil authorities. The Union Government had made representations to the Imperial Government, to the effect that the shooting of these natives was not warranted—(hear, hear)—and had asked the Secretary of State to make the necessary representations to the Imperial German Government for some assurance that the conditions under which natives from the Union Government worked would be ameliorated, that definite proposals should be submitted for the consideration of the Union Government, and that notice should be taken of the grievances of these men. Fourteen men were killed on October and two had since died. The names of the wounded had not been obtained, but they were progressing favourably, and some had returned to work. The German Government had throughout shown the greatest possible sympathy, and had shown the greatest desire to do much to improve the conditions. Police were still employed where gangs of natives were working, but it had been made clear that the soldiers would not interfere unless called upon by the civil authorities. The hon. member also asked if the Government had taken steps to have the contracts of these men cancelled. The Government had not, for the simple reason that it had not been represented to Government that any of these men desired that their contracts should be cancelled. He might say at once that this incident was only an incident, and that work in German South-west Africa was extremely popular with Cape natives. A proper Kafir interpreter had been appointed, and a Magistrate would look after their interests. It was not likely, however, that any trouble of this sort would occur again.

expressed pleasure that the discussion, for which he bad been responsible, had been productive of a great deal of good. For one thing, it had elicited the fact that the Ministry was groping for a policy, and that they were in the position, as he had suspected, that the enunciation of native policies was merely to cloak the fact that they had no policy, and that they refused to face the issue. All the talk of safeguarding the interests was surrounded by a great deal of cent. Proceeding, Mr. Creswell said that the Minister had said that the conditions under which the natives under his charge worked had been improved by 200 per cent., but that statement did not agree with the official figures. He expressed surprise that the member for Tembuland (Mr. Schreiner) did not support him when he called attention to the gross injustice suffered by the native population by being encouraged to go to the mines, not in their interests, but simply in the interests of those who made profit out of their labour.

declared that the policy in regard to the natives should not be to see what, they could make out of them, but what they could make of them. After commenting upon the fact that Trades Unions were not the enemies of the coloured men, the speaker went on to declare that wherever civilisation went and got hold of the black men, the latter went down. Continuing, the hon. member said that he did not want to take up the time of the House. (Cheers.) He had not yet made 50 speeches a day. (Laughter.) In conclusion, he said that they would never bless the natives if they made a dung-heap of them, which they were doing to-day.

it was understood, spoke of the undesirability of Ministers holding a double or a dual office, because by the identification of a Minister with some industrial concern he might try to get an advantage from that concern over a rival one. He hoped he would not be taken to reflect on the present Ministers, but he wanted to urge on the undesirability of the dual office.

said that he cordially agreed with the Minister of Native Affairs (Mr. Burton), who had made an excellent speech—(cheers) —with which he was sure the House was in thorough accord. He wanted to do what was unusual for him—to draw attention to one or two underpaid Civil Servants in that country, and to urge upon the Government to do something to redress what he thought, everybody would allow to be a great injustice. He referred to the Chief Magistrate of the Transkei. They had not to cast their eyes very far before they came to the curled darlings of the Civil Service. The Chief Magistrate of the Transkei had to govern about a million of natives; he had constantly to go and exercise his personal influence; he had had a most trying time lately with East Coast fever; and it was mainly owing to him (the Magistrate) that the natives had accepted the rules of the Government with regard to that matter, and that things had been quiet there. What they had dreaded would take place had not taken place, and the natives were loyally obeying the Government. He thought an officer holding that position was deserving of some encouragement. He was faraway, and had to rely upon himself, his position being an unique one. We thought too much of those officials who had to Keep up a position in towns, and too little of those who had to keep watch on the border. (Cheers.) He trusted that the Minister would be able to assure him that this case would be taken into consideration, and that recognition would be made of the emiuent services to which he had referred. (Cheers.)

said that Mr. Creswell’s figures were correct up to a certain point, but they were not a little misleading. The death-rate of Cape natives on the Rand had considerably improved in the last 12 months, and the death-rate of the natives on the whole steadily had decreased. He (Mr. Burton) endorsed entirely what Mr. Merrimian had said about the Chief Magistrate of the Transkei. He knew the services that gentleman had rendered to the country, and he was entirely sympathetic to making him some recognition. Now, he was afraid they must come down from the sublime to the ridiculous. Mr. Maydon seemed to insinuate that he (Mr. Burton) was engaged in nefarious practices, but after the labour of production, the motion was somewhat small. It all came down to this, that he (Mr. Burton) held the paltry little office as a director of a mutual benefit insurance society, but he did not think there was anything improper about it. It was a trumpery business, and he accepted the position when he was Attorney-General of the Cape. It had nothing to do with the public interest, and could not conflict with his duty to the Government.

said he could not believe the Minister of Native Affairs was very much concerned about the death-rate, or he would have insisted long ago on putting a stop to the importation of natives from tropical districts to work on the Rand mines.

The vote was agreed to.

moved the omission of the item, “Minister of Commence and Industries, £2,500.” This appointment, he hoped, would not be made. Its holder would have to look after only Customs and Excise, which under the Cape regime was attended to by the Treasurer, in addition to the Post Office. The only additional part to look after now was Durban. On the other hand, the Post Office had been handed over to another Minister. There was nothing in the work which would justify a Minister being paid the salary which was proposed. The idea was simply to find a billet for somebody. (Hear, hear.) The work could just as well be done by the Treasurer, who was not overworked. Leaving that apart, no appointment had been made for the seven months of the financial year which already had expired; surely it was quite easy for the Ministry to get along for the three remaining months without making the appointment.

asked whether the bonus of £4,000 to Orange Free State jam manufacturers was an expiring one? If bounties were going to be given to industries which were considered legitimate because they were founded on local products, he hoped the system of expiring bounties would prevail, so that people would be prepared for their termination.

said he wished to say that the Minister of Finance was not responsible for this bounty. The bounty, he understood, was put on by the former Government of the Orange River Colony. (VOICES: Crown Colony Government.) Well, that was the former Government. Proceeding, he said that people were apt to be misled by these little factories, that were built up in out-of-the-way places. In this case, while the bounty on jam, sweets, and other things produced in a factory In the Orange River Colony, which had to continue in existence for a number of years at the expense of thousands of pounds of the ratepayers’ money, it had the effect of closing the two or three small factories which had been running just over the river in the Transvaal, the bounty-fed factory being able to send its goods over the river into the Transvaal, and oust the Transvaal manufacturers.

said he thought that if the hon. member for Troyeville went more closely into the question, he would find that the reason why the Orange River Calony factory ousted the other factories from the Johannesburg market was not the fact of the bounty being in existence, but it was due, firstly, to the cheaper labour that was available, and, secondly, to the lower railway rates. The hon. member added that he quite agreed with the principle of expiring bounties.

asked what steps were taken by the Government to return the courtesy of foreign countries, as, for instance, the United States, in furnishing all sorts of statistical information to this country. In conclusion, he said that he hoped that the Minister would turn his attention to furnishing these returns.

said he was surprised at the remarks of the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger), seeing that the Associated Chambers of Commerce pleaded for a Minister. That was one of the reasons why he advised his hon. friend to create such a no position. He felt certain the hon. member for Cape Town would not press the amendment. Dealing with the bounty, he said he would describe the hon. member for Georgetown (Sir George Farrar) and the hon. member for Fordsburg (Mr. Duncan) as its godparents. (Laughter.) They were present at the Convention that was held in Natal in 1906.

But it was a contract.

A contract in breach of the terms of the Convention. Continuing, he said that the bounty would only last another twelve months, and that the bounty would not be continued. So far as statistics were concerned, those returns were being supplied to all the Consuls from the office of the Minister of the Interior.

said that there was not enough work for such a Minister, and he considered that the expenditure would be a waste of public money.

said that commercial people felt they were entitled to a Minister, but if this position was only for the purpose of making room for some supporter of the Government who did not understand commercial affairs they, he said, would be better without it. They did not want a Minister unless he was a competent man.

said that surely his hon. friend was not serious when he said that the Government considered the appointment of a very important character, because if they did so they would have it filled without delay? Or was it because there was such a crowd of applicants that the Prime Minister could not make up his mind? Seriously, among the nine illustrious Ministers there was surely one who could add to his other duties the duties of the Minister of Commerce. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs carried out his present duties admirably, but he was not overworked. (Laughter.) If the duties were given to him, they would save a good deal of money and the work would be well done.

The motion to reduce the vote was negatived.

The vote was agreed to.

moved a reduction of £100. He said the Customs tariffs of the four colonies could at the present moment be altered by resolution of the Customs officials. He referred to a certain case, in which he contended the tariff had been wrongly interpreted.

explained the position in regard to the case referred to by the hon. member. If the hon. member was not satisfied with the interpretation of the Customs officer, he could refuse to pay the duty and take the Customs officer to court.

said that in the case he referred to the Customs official had decided that a 56-lb. in of glycerine, brought in for manufacture, could come in free, but four such tins in a case were liable for duty.

said that the question of glycerine, as raised by the hon. member for King William’s Town (Mr. Whitaker), was one of very great importance to the commercial community. The question was whether the interpretation of the Customs official was correct or otherwise, and that, he thought, could easily be settled by the Cabinet. There were five or six lawyers in the Cabinet, and it was unnecessary, as the Minister had suggested, to test the case in a court of law.

asked what would become of the Law Courts if the suggestion of the hon. member for Von Brandis (Mr. Nathan) were followed?

withdrew his amendment.

asked why the Government had retrenched the Director of Public Works in the Free State on a pension of £400 or £500, and also the Chief Engineer on a pension of something like £300, in view of the fact that it was intended to carry out in full the programme of construction of public works decided upon?

drew the Minister’s attention to the question of the importation of contract labour, especially in connection with the building trade. He suggested that the Minister should introduce a Bill to prohibit the importation of contract labour into the Union, when such labour was available within the Union at the time. He also suggested the introduction of the fair wage clause in all Government contracts.

in reply, said that in regard to what the hon. member for Bloemfontein (Mr. Botha) had tasked about the pensioning of two officers, the first was over sixty years of age, and it was a law in the Orange Free State that anybody over that age should be pensioned. Then, with reorganisation and centralisation, the second-named gentleman was not any longer necessary for the work in the Orange Free State. He had been engaged in the construction of roads in the Orange Free State, and all roads were now being transferred to the Provincial Council. The department the second gentleman was in had been transferred to the Land Department; and in the reorganisation and centralisation of the Union works in the various Provinces they intended to put a district engineer in charge of the works, who would communicate direct with headquarters at Pretoria, where there would be a staff of architects for the purpose of drawing up and considering plane, specifications, and estimates; and it was hoped by the Provinces being able to avail themselves of the whole organisation at headquarters for technical advice and so forth, that the work would be done more efficiently and economically. The intention was that by centralisation they would be able to do a good deal better than before. The hon. member for Jeppes (Mr. Creswell) had asked a question about school accommodation. In the Union all schools came under the administration of the Provinces, so that the Public Works Department really only had to do with schools if it had a requisition or was instructed by the Provincial Council. If his hon. friend had any suggestion to make in connection with schools required in certain districts, the right place would be with the Administrator of the Provincial Council.

thought the Provincial Council was the proper body to decide whether this gentleman should be retrenched or not. He did not understand the economy of retrenching a young man and giving him a pension.

asked for information regarding the importation of artisans for carrying out Government contracts.

stated that only two men had been retrenched in the Free State. He considered it was an economy to dispense with an officer’s services when two-thirds of his duties had been transferred to somebody else. He (Mr. Graaff) thought it was only fair to the taxpayer that this official should be retrenched. With regard to Mr. Madeley’s question, so far Government had not been a party to importing artisans for the carrying out of Government contracts. He understood that some men were employed by a contractor who had a contract with the Government to execute at the present time in Pretoria, but the Government had been no party to it. Representations had been made to the Government, and they had been informed by the contractor that for a certain class of work he had imported a limited number of men, but it was not his intention to import any further men for the purpose. As to the fair-wage clause, he might say that here in the Cape that principle had not obtained in Government contracts. He believed that it obtained in the Transvaal. Representations had been made to the Government on this subject, but up to the present no definite decision had been taken, and no step bad been taken to wards bringing about uniformity in this matter.

pointed out he had not argued that they should keep on men for whom they had no work. He wanted to impress on his colleagues from the Free State the fact that the Government had no work for their Public Works Department in the Free State, and that the public works were at a standstill.

said that he hoped the Minister’s remarks did not express the final opinion of the Government in regard to the question of a fair wage clause. It simply prevented unscrupulous contractors from getting a contract and paying an unfair wage. Surely it was a fair proposition. He hoped that the Minister would not give a final answer without consideration.

said that the reply of the Minister was the most unsympathetic reply he had ever heard given to a question. He thought the policy of the Minister could not be the policy of all the members of the Government. And surely the principle of importing contract labour was not a good one?

was understood to say that the works in the Orange Free State were being proceeded with.

The vote was agreed to

hoped the Minister would be able to inform the House at an early date what steps were being taken with regard to providing a country residence for the Governor-General.

said the matter had already had his consideration, and he hoped to be able to make a statement to the House before long.

drew attention to the necessity for improving the police barracks at Germiston.

referred to the unsatisfactory condition of the Magistrate’s office at Woodstock.

thought that provision should be made in connection with the Magistrates’ Courts in Cape Town, which were in a scandalous condition. The hon. member also asked for information as to the construction of the law courts in Cape Town.

replying to the member for Woodstock (Dr. Hewat), said that the question of courts was one for the Minister of Justice, the Public Works Department simply having to deal with the construction work, He assured the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Alexander) that there would be no stoppage in connection with the construction of the Supreme Court buildings in Cape Town. Part of the money had been provided for by the Cape, and the balance was provided in a Loan Bill which would follow later on; but he might say that the work was going on pretty quickly indeed, and he had no hesitation in saying that the building would be finished within the specified time. (Hear, hear.)

The vote, slightly amended, was agreed to.

asked whether the Government was going to make any arrangement with regard to servitude in connection with private telephones?

I may tell my hon. friend that, personally, I have great sympathy with the object he has in view. Personally, I favour the idea; and where I find a telephone which does not come into competition with the Government, I shall do as he wants.

Thanks; that’s all I want to know.

inquired about the appointment of the Postmaster-General of the Union, an appointment which, he said, it was desirable should be made as soon as possible.

I may say that a gentleman in a high position in the Service is acting as Acting Postmaster-General, and I am pleased to say that the postal and telegraphic arrangements have been carried out very satisfactorily at the present time. (Cheers.) It is not the intention of the Government to make a permanent appointment until some later date. We are waiting for the report of the Civil Service Commission, and we will go slowly and surely.

complained, inter alia, that while there had been seven posts per week in his district, there were now only three.

said he would have an inquiry made into the matter mentioned by the hon. member.

The vote was agreed to.

in reply to Mr. J. G. MAYDON (Durban), Greyville), stated that a Select Committee was still considering the matter, but had not yet come to a decision. The committee might do so, however, during the present session. In the meantime, he thought it would be desirable to pass the vote.

The vote was agreed to.

moved that the House go into Committee of Supply.

seconded.

Agreed to.

The House resolved to go into Committee of Supply to-morrow.