from Isaac Bisseux, formerly Auditor-General, Orange Free State Republic.

from Mary Welsh, teacher, Cape Education Department.

(1) Repatriation Live Stock Compensation Commission (Transvaal). (2) Schedule of Works provided for in the Union and Provincial Estimates, showing commitments entered into at the date of Union and the services since authorised

moved the second reading of the Mining Taxation Bill, giving effect to the following resolution of the House: (1) That there shall be assessed, levied, collected, and paid to the revenue of the Union under the provisions of and subject to the conditions enacted by any Act which may be passed in the present session of Parliament a tax on the profits of mining as follows: (a) On the profits from mining or winning of gold, 10 per cent.; (b) on the profits from mining or winning of precious stones, 10 per cent.; (c) on the profits from mining or winning of other minerals, according to the following scale: Where the amount of profit does not exceed 5 per cent. of the gross revenue, 2½ per cent.; exceeds 5 per cent. but does not exceed 10 per cent., 3 per cent.; exceeds 10 per cent. but does not exceed 15 per cent., 3½ per cent.; exceeds 15 per cent. but does not exceed 20 per cent., 4 per cent; exceeds 20 per cent. but does not exceed 30 per cent., 5 per cent.; exceeds 30 per cent. but does not exceed 40 per cent., 6 per cent.; and thereafter for every additional unit per cent. of profit an addition of .1 (decimal 1) per cent. to the rate of tax; (2) that the profits for taxation shall include profits derived from the mining or winning aforesaid and from any product in connection therewith; (3) that in assessing the profits there shall be deducted an allowance for the amortisation of capital actually expended; (4) in lieu of the amortisation allowance in the case of existing diamond mines, a deduction shall be made from the revenue derived as aforesaid, for expenditure hereafter incurred on maintenance and renewal of equipment and on additions there to or extensions thereof; (5) that the said taxation in respect of diamond and copper mining companies in the Cape Province be levied as from the date to which the profits of the respective companies have been charged to and have borne and paid income tax under the Cape Income Tax Act, 1909; and in respect of the diamond mining companies in the Orange Free State Province, that the said taxation shall he levied as from the date to which the profits of the respective companies have been charged to and have borne and paid profits tax as imposed by the Orange River Colony Ordinance No 24 of 1907; (6) that the said taxation shall not be levied on any profits derived as aforesaid in which the Crown is entitled to share by virtue of any law, grant, lease, or agreement, to an extent not less than the taxation hereby to be imposed; (7) that whenever the profits derived as aforesaid do not exceed £1,000 starling in any one year, an exemption from the said taxation shall be allowed in respect of those profits for that year. Mr. Hull said that the Bill would repeal all existing laws of the kind operating in the different Provinces, and would make the legislation in this respect uniform throughout the Union. He expressed the hope that a Bill would shortly be introduced making uniform also the laws relating to the ownership of minerals hereafter discovered. He said that the working provisions were substantially the same as had been in force in the Transvaal during the last few years. These provisions had been found to work well, and only such alterations had been effected as experience had shown to be desirable.

requested the Minister briefly to repeat his statement in Dutch, as he, the speaker, had not understood it. In view of the importance of the subject he would like to know what had been said.

said he was glad the Minister had accepted the suggestion that some further consideration should be given to the base metal mines by allowing them the amortisation allowance made in respect of gold mines. Then in section 8 there was a point which occurred to him, and that was where a person carried on mining under an agreement by which he might be liable to an increase of rent on an increase of profits. How did that matter stand under the clause? Would it override the agreement? There might be a limited number of cases of this kind, but he hoped the Minister had considered the point.

said that with regard to clause 4, he did not anticipate that there would be any difficulty in the practical working of it. He thought it was rather wider than the similar clause of the Transvaal Act. Regarding clause 8, his attention had not been called to any case where there was a conflict between the mining owner and the tributor. The clause meant that the tributor would be entitled, in spite of any agreement, to set off any expenditure on development, shaft sinking, and so on, against the increased profits.

asked the Minister of Finance to repeat his remarks in Dutch. The Dutch members were not being treated fairly. A request for interpretation had been made, very respectfully, and the Minister had acted in cavalier fashion by completely ignoring it.

replied that, after all, his mother tongue was English, and if he could express himself on a purely technical point of this kind in Dutch as well as he could in English he would. But was afraid to try it.

The Bill was read a second time, and leave obtained to bring up a report to-day.

asked whether the clause applied to all Transvaal diamond mines.

replied that the clause applied to all diamond mines within the Union except those which paid more than ten per cent. at present.

said he considered it unfair to exact 60 per cent. from the Premier Mine while taxing other diamond mines to the extent of 10 per cent. only. It was Parliament’s duty to mete out justice to all, and all diamond mines should be treated on the same basis.

said that the Premier Mine did not pay a tax of 60 per cent. The fact of the matter was that the Government was co-owner to the extent of 60 per cent.—a very different thing. Whenever a diamond was found in the Transvaal, 60 per cent. of that diamond belonged to the Government, and only 40 to the mine.

said that, if at present 60 per cent. was being paid in the Transvaal and 40 per cent. in the Free State, he could not see how the public revenue was to be enhanced by passing a 10 per cent. tax all round.

said that if any particular law was to blame for the crying injustice to the Premier Mine, that law should be repealed.

explained the main provisions of the Transvaal Diamond Law, drawing attention to the fact that, under it, only a certain number of claims belonged to the owner on the discovery of a mine the remainder being allotted to the public. The Government of the Transvaal had realised, however, that if 60 per cent. of a given mine were to be thrown open for public pegging, a comparatively small piece of ground would be sub-divided to such an extent that it might be entirely useless to all concerned. The State, therefore, stepped in as the protector of the public’s rights, and decided that the Government was to take the 60 per cent. by way of share in the whole undertaking. He did not mean to imply that he would be in favour of a settlement on these lines if it had to be made now, but in view of its existence he would not advise hon. members to tamper with it.

asked whether the agreement between the Roberts Victor Mine and the Free State Government would be affected by the legislation they were now passing?

replied that the Roberts Victor had been discovered since the enactment of the present Free State Act. Consequently it paid 40 per cent., and the new Union tax would not apply to it.

said that the agreement in question stipulated that, in consideration of a payment of £1,200 a year for five years, the mine would be exempt from taxation after that period,

said that the clause did not state to whom the tax should he paid. He thought also that the marginal note should be changed.

The clause as printed was agreed to.

On clause 7,

asked whether a mine making a profit of only £1,000 would have to pay?

replied that a profit of less than £1,000 per annum would not he taxed.

The clause as printed was agreed to.

On clause 15,

explained, in Mr. Hull’s absence, that he thought the Minister of Finance was considering an amendment, and he proposed that the clause should stand over.

Agreed to.

Later, clause 15 was agreed to without amendment,

On the schedule,

moved that the fourth column be left out altogether.

Agreed to.

Does the first schedule stand?

Yes.

The Bill was reported with one amendment.

moved that the amendment be at once considered.

Agreed to.

The amendment was agreed to.

moved that the third reading of the Bill be now taken.

I object to that.

The third reading was set down for Monday.

spoke at some length in support of the extension of the railway from Butterworth to Umtata. He pointed out that the line was sanctioned by the Cape Parliament in 1906, along with other projects, and that it was actually begun, and some £20,000 to £25,000 had been spent upon it. He considered that the railway was, in a sense, a national railway, and that it ought to have been proceeded with during the last ten months, just in the same way as the Moseer Bay-George line was. The line was very essential for strategic reasons, and he believed that if the ox-wagon competition were penalised the railway could be made to pay.

referred to the position of the South-western Districts, and said that the rates on the New Cape Central Railway were ruinously high on certain articles. At the same time too much credit could not be given to the New Cape Central Railway Company, which had a most capable manager. (Hear, hear.) Seeing that the line was absolutely no charge on the public revenue, the people in the South-western Districts were entitled to some relief. Had the line been owned by the Government, the country would have lost £20,000, but as it was, the Cape Railways derived a profit from the line, as it give traffic to the Government system. Mr. Vintcent suggested that the Minister of Railways should consider the taking over of the New Cape Central at, say, cost price. In view of the development of traffic that would accrue through reduced rates, the line should show a profit in the course of a few years. Should Government not take the line over, it should give relief in some other manner. The fact that Mossel Bay Harbour made a profit last year strengthened the position of the South-western Districts in this matter

said that in these Estimates there was nothing remotely connected with the South-western Districts alluded to by the last speaker. But he would give it attention when he dealt in future with the construction of railways. He would also give the same reply to the hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Schreiner), who stood so heroically to his guns. In reality, both hon. members were out of order.

The motion was agreed to.

said that a great deal had been done with regard to the re-grading of the line between Touws River and Prince Albert-road. There was, however, still much to be done. He would not spend money on the line for the purpose of faster travelling to the Rand, but when it came to a saving of something like £21,000 a year in the way of engines, etc., and rolling-stock, then it was a matter for consideration. Proceeding, he said he hoped before long that it would be possible to do something for the Midland line. It was a very profitable line indeed; no line was more profitable in the Cape Province, and from a railway point of view, he had always had a great affection for it.

asked if anything was to be done in the matter of altering the gradients from Jeppestown to Park, so as to improve the railway crossings?

said the Railway Department was prepared to pay half of the cost of dealing with this if the Municipality paid half, but further than that the Government could not go. The Government could not take out of the revenue the sum necessary to lower the line.

said this matter had been before the Transvaal Parliament, and it was then suggested that the difficulty might be met by the provision of subways or overhead bridges.

said that that had been considered. He hoped it would be possible to come to satisfactory terms with the local authority.

asked what steps were being taken to remedy the grievance caused by a similar state of affairs at Germiston?

said he thought there was no doubt that owing to the financial position of the Cape Colony during the last few years the Western lines had not been kept in such good order as they should have been. If money was spent on it there was no doubt it would be a remunerative line.

said that with regard to the line from Touws River to Prince Albert, if the relaying that had been contemplated and estimated for was carried out, it would pay the interest on the expenditure and show a profit. Between Klerksdorp and Johannesburg there was a gradient of one in forty, and he understood that the line was not very well laid. If that was re-laid it would practically save three or four hours on the run over that line, so that it would materially reduce the journey to Pretoria.

in reply, said that in regard to the matter of the regrading of the Touws River-Prince Albert line, his attention had been drawn to it, and it was a matter that would receive consideration. Regarding the sinking fund in Natal, that had been abolished. Regarding what had been said by the hon. member for Georgetown (Sir Geo. Farrar), he quite agreed with him, and appreciated it so thoroughly that they were having a survey made to see whether they could not go back to the original idea when this line was built. He did not know what the cost would be, but it would shorten the line by about 25 miles to go from Huguenot direct to Worcester. He would not like it to go forth, from what the hon. member for Georgetown (Sir Geo. Farrar) had said, that any part of this line was not quite safe. Both during the time when the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Dr. Smartt) was Commissioner of Railways and when he himself was the Commissioner, when they had to retrench the instructions were that the saving should be made on the embroidery. The road had to be kept in first-class order, and was. (Hear, hear.) He believed it was in first-class order. He had taken the trouble to consult his engineers from time to time, and they assured him that especially with regard to the main line, the line was in first-class order. They did not save money on that, but on the embroidery. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Germiston (Mr. Chaplin) asked regarding certain reports. He (Mr. Sauer) could find none that dealt with the construction of the station mentioned. He would lay what information he could on the table as soon as possible. The same hon. member also asked what they were going to do at Germiston, where they had the level crossing? They would do there as they had done elsewhere. They would try to get some agreement on a basis of mutual accommodation, but he must not expect it to be all on the one side. It was very sad to have accidents, and the Railway Department was very anxious to avoid them, but at the same time the matter would have to be carried out on business lines, and those who benefited should contribute to the cost of the subways.

said regarding the sinking fund, the Minister had said that under the Constitution Act the railway no longer paid anything to it, but that it remained as a permanent charge against the general revenue.

Yes; the railway does not pay.

said that the point regarding the Germiston subway was an extremely interesting one. It so happened that the local authorities who were asked to contribute were precisely those who were contributing to the enormous surplus of the railways. They were the ones who should not contribute. The State should provide protection for the public out of the enormous profits the railway made. The other day he asked whether it was the intention to fence the line down to Vryheid. The answer had been yes.

The lines are fenced.

said he admitted that, but there was a principle involved. They had to consider that if the Government were going to do this in one case and not ask for any contribution, what was the good of asking the community to pay a portion of the cost of a subway to protect life?

said that formerly in the C.G.R. they had had departmental inquiries, and later there had been public and open inquiries, over which a Magistrate presided. Would the Railway Board introduce that system over the whole of the Union Railways? The hon. member thought that it was far preferable to have an open inquiry into accidents on the railway and the like.

was understood to reply that instructions had been given.

said that the return fare between Cape Town and Port Elizabeth by steamer was one and a half times the single fare, but the railway fare between the two places was one and three-quarter times the single fare, which was rather high. The hon. member also referred to a matter concerning railwaymen, and to a letter which asked whether the Minister had been understood to say that he would only act through the paid officials of the Board. The rate on mealies, as compared with the export rate, was rather high. How did the Sea Point railway stand?

inquired with regard to the question of concessions, some of which, he understood, were to be restored; and pleaded on behalf of nurses being granted railway concessions. He also drew attention to the rate on raw imported material, which, he said was much lower than on the manufactured article. Was the present system of selling provisions to the railway employees to continue?

drew the attention of the Minister to a paragraph in the last General Manager’s report, to the effect that it was a matter of keen personal regret that the Government had not found it possible to do something tangible for railway employees to assist them for the loss of increments for the past six years. In the Greenbook which had been issued it appeared that £54,680 had been taken away from the men in reductions, and only £50,000 had been given back. He hoped that a profit would not be made out of these men’s reductions.

drew the Minister’s attention to what he said was the dangerous state of affairs at South Coast Junction, a few miles from Durban.

asked whether provision was made in the Estimates for the erection of a new station at Ladysmith, Natal?

asked if passengers, travelling through from the Orange Free State to the coast of Natal during the holiday season had been allowed to break their journey at Maritzburg?

said that, as to the points raised by the last two members, he would go into the matters they had mentioned. In regard to the point raised by the hon. member for the Castle Division (Mr. Alexander), he hoped to live long enough to hear the hon. member ask a question that did not relate to an increase of pay. This was not election time. The hon. member surely knew as well as he (Mr. Sauer) did that they introduced a Bill to restore to the Civil Servants some of the deductions which had been made; but they did not refund the whole amount. That was the reason. They only acted according to the law. They had granted increases or increments all round. He thought the amount granted in increments to people on the railway since Union in the Cape alone was £30,000 a year. Then as to the question of concessions, raised by the hon. member for Kimberley, he (Mr. Oliver) had said that he understood concessions were to be restored.

Some of them.

No; what we did was this —we abolished nearly all the concessions, amongst others, to ministers of religion. After Union we found that in other Provinces they still retained their concessions. We, therefore, restored that concession, in order to make it uniform throughout the Union. The idea was to revise the limited concessions which existed at the time of Union. We have brought them nearly to uniformity, and the idea was not to extend the concessions, but to see if we could not still further reduce them. That is a matter which engaged the attention of the Board, and some time ago we drew up a memorandum on the subject. At the meeting of the Board this morning it was mentioned again, and probably during the next week or two a revised list of concessions will be issued. The alterations will be mainly in the further limitation of the list, and if they are carried out according to my view of the subject, there will be very few concessions left indeed. So that I can hold out no hope to my hon. friend that that very deserving class—the nurses—are likely to get their concessions back. Proceeding, Mr. Sauer pointed out that during the last year or so the passenger rates on the railways had been enormously reduced— he Should think about 30 per cent.—which in itself was a good concession, and one that applied, happily, to everybody. In reference to the Sea Point line, to which attention had been drawn by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth, the position of that line was more satisfactory than it had been heretofore. The Municipality had paid off a large amount of its indebtedness, and when he recently looked into the matter he found that they owed less than they did at any previous time, and, in addition to that, he might say that the line was showing an improvement, and there was a reduced loss.

Are you still carrying passengers at penny fares?

The Municipality pays for that; they are not our fares. If I had the handling of it, I think there would be a different charge. But they choose to pay, they are very well off, they seem to be happy, and they are liquidating their liability, and I believe they will pay the whole of the amount that is due. In regard to the competition between the line and the ships on the coast, I will look into that matter. Proceeding, Mr. Sauer said that in reference to mealies, it was an odd thing that that morning that question was discussed by the Board, the centres taken being Oudtshoorn and Graaff-Reinet. The unfortunate farmer whom they wished to help found a difficulty in that he could not sell his mealies. The freight charge was so high and the price of mealies in Europe was so low that it was impossible to find a market. They would, therefore, have to see whether they could not find a market in this colony. He did not think the railway rates on mealies for South African consumption were too high, but agreed that the railway must not impose such rates on mealies as to prevent or seriously retard the use of South African mealies in this country. Even with the present rates Natal-grown mealies could be sold at Oudtshoorn at 10s. 6d. a muid. As to Trades Unions and the railway, the biggest trades unionists in the world were lawyers—(laughter)—doctors were pretty bad, but lawyers were worse. (Renewed laughter.) He thought the Railway Department’s view was not favourable to Trades Unions; he had not discussed the matter with the department, but his nose told him so. (Laughter.) The rule with the railways was not to hear the men through their organisations, but if any number of the men wished to come to him he would give them full consideration and a hearing. With regard to the South Coast junction, he would look into the matter.

supported the plea for giving nurses concessions on the railway. The nurses were a very poorly paid class, and if ministers of religion were given concessions, nurses also should have them. (Hear, hear.)

said he was entirely in sympathy with the question. If any class was to have concessions he hoped nurses would have them. (Hear, hear.)

asked for information regarding the linking up of the line from Vryheid to Springs, and as to the Government’s intention to join the Natal railway with the Western Transvaal system.

asked that coal should be carried at a lower rate. If an export trade for coal could be established it would be a great thing for South Africa, and there was a chance of doing that with India.

complained that the Minister had been sarcastic instead of answering two plain questions that he had put. ‘They took £54,000 from the men, give back £50,000, and kept about £5,000 in their possession.

asked if some system could not be provided whereby importers could pay all the harbour and other charges at the point of destination? It would be a great boon to those who were concerned.

asked for an explanation of “other, £9,000.”

said that this money was mainly spent on repairing the damage caused by washaways. Continuing, he said that he would look into the point raised by the hon. member for Worcester (Mr. Heatlie). Referring to remarks made by the hon. members for Durban (Mr. Maydon) and East Griqualand (Mr. King), with regard to the construction of new railways, he said he had answered that question before. The Government hoped, however, during the present session to submit to Parliament proposals for the construction of new lines, and these requests would then be considered. At present he was not prepared to make a statement. The hon. member for Durban (Mr. Maydon) had raised an important question with regard to a decrease in the rates on coal. Considering the quantity of coal carried, he must say that they should be slow in bringing down the rate. He reminded the hon. member that the general question of rates would be considered very shortly. What they had done was to equalise the rates in the different Provinces; but very soon the general question would have to come up, and one of the first, objects then would be to give the Free State and the Transvaal cheaper rates on goods from the coast; that would be in accordance with the provisions of the South Africa Act. He pointed out to the hon. member that if they were to reduce the rates on coal they would have these companies cutting one another’s throats to such an extent that they would get coal very cheaply. How at the present time these companies managed to struggle along he did not know. At any rate, the general question would soon receive consideration, and this point would also be dealt with.

The vote was agreed to.

pointed out that ns a result of the transportation system in the Transvaal, the mechanics, instead of being under technical officers, were under the Traffic Department. He did not think the transportation system had been successful in America. He thought expert opinion was against the innovation; at any rate it ought to be very carefully thought out before being extended over the whole Union. There was much more content amongst the men affected under the departmental system, because then they had to deal with technical officials. Moreover, the locomotives and rolling-stock were kept up to the highest standard of efficiency under the old departmental system.

asked what was the intention of the Government as to giving out certain kinds of work for the railway to private firms. In the past in Natal certain work had been done outside in a very satisfactory way—work which could not be done in the railway shops without getting much more equipment and without employing certain special workmen for whom there would not be regular work of the kind all the year round. He hoped the Government would consider whether it would not be advisable to continue this practice.

agreed with the previous speaker.

asked the Minister if it would be the policy of the Railway Department in the future to buy goods for South Africa in South Africa? A good deal of cotton waste was used, and it was bought in England. It could be obtained locally. If the gold mines could adopt such a policy, the Union Government could also.

in reply, said the hon. member said: “Do not buy in poor old England, but buy here.” He would tell him that they were going on a good principle, and that was: to buy where they could get their goods cheapest. (Hear, hear.) An hon. member from Natal spoke about giving work out when the Government workshops were so full that they could not do any more. He applied very much the same principle there as he had just laid down. He knew what it meant to give Government work out, the Government had to pay more for it. He did not know that that was a good or a wise thing to do, and as their duty was to carry on the railways on, business principles, he was afraid they would have more or less to get it done as cheaply as possible. An important matter had been mentioned by the hon. member for Georgetown (Sir George Farrar). It was a matter that, personally, he approached with, he would not say prejudice, but with a bias in favour of the old Cape system. That was the only system be knew, and knew how it worked. He knew well that when changes were made on the C.S.A.R., it was said that more economies were effected, but that view did not appeal to him very much, because it did not seem to him that it led to economy. He found that with their old system they could economise very much. He was not prepared to discuss the new system. He had started with a bias against it, and was not very clear whether it was the best or not. There was a good deal to be said for it both ways. He had been asked whether the Railway Board had considered it. Well, immediately he got to Pretoria, he had discussed the question with Mr. McEwen. They were very much of the same opinion in that they thought the Cape system worked more satisfactorily. He had not discuseed it with Sir Thomas Price, because they knew his opinion, for he was largely responsible for bringing it about. Mr. McEwen and he regarded it rather as a matter of cost. The resolution they had adopted was arrived at with the full concurrence of the Board. The system had followed on because of the system in the Transvaal—perhaps it was the local atmosphere which had influenced their judgment. It was very difficult to judge of a great change like that immediately—it was almost impossible. He had no objection that they should watch it closely. He had no objection at all that a report should be made, and he did not think that the members of the Board who strongly favoured it would object to that being done, but he must say in fairness that, having attended to his duties as closely as possible, some of his bias had worn off; hut still he was not perfectly clear that it was the better system. He would and could give his reasons, but he did not think they were sufficiently matured yet. The system was one which to a large extent was on its trial, and all information should be given to Parliament; but a sufficient time should elapse for a judgment to be considered.

spoke about the desirability of the railways of the country getting their supplies in the country if possible, and not going elsewhere for them.

who was almost inaudible in the Press Gallery, was understood to allude to the trip system.

said that he must differ altogether from the statement made that the mines were purchasing everything they possibly could locally, and if a list could be produced of the articles purchased locally, and those from elsewhere, it would have a very educational effect.

spoke of the ill-treatment of stock on the railways through the animals being kept standing in open trucks for a long time at stations in the Karoo, and the delay to such trains. Not only did these animals suffer, he said, but the stock deteriorated to a large extent in the course of such journeys—about 15 to 40 per cent. He hoped the Government would consider the question of ameliorating the conditions under which stock travelled, and the inauguration of slaughter-houses at proper places throughout the country, where farmers could bring their stock in prime condition, and have it killed and cold-stored, so that they would obtain better prices than they did at present.

said he was very glad that the hon. member (Mr. Struben) had drawn attention to this question of cruelty to animals conveyed by rail.

drew attention to certain remarks made by the General Manager of Railways in his report in reference to the consumption of coal on the railways, and urged the Minister to go carefully into the whole question. He thought, if the Minister ordered more Natal coal, he would find that he would be able to run his railways more cheaply and more efficiently than at present.

asked if the contracts for the year 1911 had been placed?

replied that some of the contracts had been placed, but not all. The position was this—and he had brought it before the board, and they were unanimous in the view they took—the position was that the Cape Government had for years past taken Cape Colony coal, a considerable quantity, for use on the railways. They all knew at the time that it was not the cheapest possible coal to be got in South Africa, and there was an actual loss to the railway in the purchase of that coal, but the industry grew up, and they had all the evils of protection. They had got the price down considerably. At one time they paid 17s. 6d. for Ind we coal, but they had got the price down to 12s. 6d., and it had even been reduced this year to 12s. They felt that to shut the thing up immediately would be a very serious question, and they, therefore took, he thought, a reduced quantity at a reduced price, with a full understanding that the matter would have to be dealt with by communications with the department, and in future, if the Government’s policy was to take more coal from this source, they would have to get it at a much lower price, or the general revenue would have to make good the loss.

said that clause 131 of the Act of Union required that on March 31 the chairman of the Railway Board must present an account showing what, in the opinion of the Board and the Auditor General, were fair charge to be voted out of the consolidated revenue for services rendered, which were not entirely railway services, such as the travelling expenses of Ministers.

said the account would include those services which the railways were required to render at a loss. The Board had to run the railway on business principles, and had no right to place a contract at a higher price than things, such as coal, could be obtained elsewhere. He would like to know by whom the railway would be required to render these services. It was most important to the House to know that the Constitution was going to foe observed in every particular.

asked why the reduced railway rates were not brought into force on January 1?

It was not convenient to do so.

asked what arrangement was to be made in reference to the printing for the railways. Was the Minister conducting that on business principles? In giving out orders was he going to give printers throughout the Union an opportunity of competing for them.

replied that he was getting the printing done as cheaply as possible— that was his own view. Up to the present most of the work had been done at the Government printing establishment at Pretoria, but when there was a pressure of business the railway had gone outside for its printing. That was the method he found in vogue. Personally, he would like to get the printing done as cheaply as possible.

In reply to Mr. T. ORR (Pietermaritzburg North),

said his hon. friend need not be afraid that the Cape would pay less in railway rates than Natal. Natal and the Cape were the only two Provinces which would benefit in this matter. The object of the reduction was to have a uniform rate throughout the Union.

said that when the subject of the Government Printing Works at Pretoria was discussed the other day it was stated that the Railway Department, after comparing prices, had elected to have its work done at the Government Printing Works at Pretoria. That did not quite coincide with the Minister’s present statement. What was the gain through the comparison of prices?

This arrangement was made some time ago.

It is evident that since Union was established no comparison of prices has been made, and no tenders for printing have been called for.

Not to my knowledge.

Will the Minister undertake that tenders will be called for in order that the railways may have their printing done at the lowest rate?

suggested that following the American example, an Industrial Commissioner should be sent around the railway system to find openings for the establishment of new enterprises.

said he would discuss the matter with the Canadian Commissioner.

The vote was agreed to.

hoped that when the House met the minutes of the Board and the report of the Board in connection with the reduction of the rates and the reasons which actuated the members in arriving at these reductions would be placed on the table. He would be the last to interfere with the work of the Board, but he thought that the House should be in possession of the reasons which actuated them in the reduction of rates which were to come in force on February 1.

said he did not know that he could promise that. He would have to consider the question. He did not know whether it would foe to the benefit of the House. What good would it do to the House? It might do good for another purpose than that of business.

No.

said he was talking seriously. It would be an unusual thing to do, and he did not know if the Board would like it. They would destroy the utility of the Board. But he would sleep over it. (Laughter.) With regard to the rates, he had no objection. He pointed out that the members of the Board had been closely and continuously dealing with the rates for some hours that morning. But there was nothing on paper. It was like a Cabinet meeting. What would be the use of Cabinet meetings if minutes were taken? A man’s reasons might be bad if his conclusions were good.

asked a question with reference to the regulations which guided the Board.

said he would lay these on the table very shortly.

went on to refer to the concessions which were granted ex-members of Parliament some time ago. Did he intend to bring the amount forward and put it on the Estimates? He did not think that it was doing things on business lines, and he thought the action ultra vires.

said that they did not know who ran the railways—whether the Board was a living body, or whether the railways were run by one man. He moved to reduce salaries and wages by £500 in order to get two or three points discussed. Under the Act the railways were subject to the authority of the Board, and the Board was under the control of the Government. It seemed that the policy behind the Act was that the Government in power would be responsible for the policy of the railways. On the question of concessions, the Minister seemed to have an entirely false idea of the position. The Minister seemed to think he had a little bag into which he could dip and take money for this or that set of people. The Railway Board and the Minister had no right whatever to grant concessions in one place and withhold them in another. The Minister and the Board could not create any concessions without the authority of the Governor-General, or without the resolution of both Houses of Parliament. The Minister had no authority to issue passes to the former members of Parliament. He recalled the old Selati Railway scandal in the days of the late Republic, when the President said he did not blame the three members who had been bribed so much as he blamed the rascal who offered them the bribe. Well, he (Mr. Struben) did not blame the people who kept those passes so much as the rascal who offered them. (Cries of “Order.”) He did not mean that remark to have a personal application at all, and he withdrew it if it were so understood. Continuing, Mr. Struben said that if the Government wished to give passes for life to late members of the Executive Councils they must obtain the sanction of Parliament. They could not do it legally in any other manner.

regretted the remarks of the last speaker. He did not see what object would be gained by bringing in stories, real or imaginary, of President Kruger. Continuing, Mr. Currey asked for information as to the item of £7,000 for Commissioners. He asked also whether the members of the Beard could do any other work while they held these offices under the Government. While the Commissioners held this high and well-paid office, they should have no time for work of any other sort whatever. He hoped the House would understand that he was not reflecting in any way on any member of the Board, but a day might come when their interests as directors of some company and as officers of the Government might be in conflict. He thought the Government should lay down some rule as was laid down for the High Commissioner in clause 4.

said he had a matter to bring to the notice of the Minister regarding the superannuation fund. There was a great number of railway employees who desired to know why they could not join the fund. He believed that men who had joined the Service since January 1 had not had the privilege of joining it. Some regulations were being issued, be believed, and he would like to know when there was a likelihood of their being brought forward, so that employees could join. Secondly, he would like to know if the Minister could give him an assurance that they would be privileged to pay back from the day they joined the Service.

said he had a little point that was agitating Insurance Companies. A very large amount of Money had been spent by the Government outside South Africa on insurance premiums, and a sum close on £1,000 had been saved. He wanted to point out that these companies were running their offices in this country, paying for licences, and spending large sums on administration. He could heartily compliment the Minister for buying in the cheapest markets; but would like to ask him to find out and ascertain if he was really doing so. By going into the matter they would find that, by purchasing an article locally, they would be doing the country a lot of good.

said the member for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger) had asked about the railway pusses granted to members. He had already replied to that; but never had any objection to giving information to a gentleman like Mr. Jagger. There were some members who seemed to have their ears stuffed with cotton wool. (Laughter.) He could assure them that it was not the atmosphere of Pretoria that induced him to give them; it was his own sin. He did it because it was the Cape view expressed before he went to Fretoria.

By whom?

By the Cabinet Ministers.

Replying to another interjection by Mr. J. W. JAGGER (Cape Town, Central),

said: The Minister is above Parliament. (Laughter.) Proceeding, he said his right hon. friend the member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) was not a jobber, but he was in favour of it. The whole Cabinet was in favour of it. In fact, the only one in the Cabinet who did not like it was himself. It was not poor Pretoria, but Cape Town, where they were—

Moral. (Laughter.)

So unctuous; where we are all more moral than we pretend to be. (Laughter.) Proceeding, he said that when he came to look into the matter, all the other things did not enter his mind—that it was political purposes and corrupt motives; but he did think of this—that the existing Parliament had ended their careers, and if they had taken that sordid, selfish view that they had to look at motives, they would not have had Union to-day. (Cheers.) He had done what his colleagues were in favour of, and most of the Governments in South Africa were in favour of. He thought at a time like that, when they were not distributing favours, but giving in a large and generous spirit to all sections of the community, that really it was not much to say to members of Parliament that they could retain their privileges for a time. They could pillory him if they liked, but should not think it was the atmosphere of Pretoria. It was his own sinfulness. If he had done wrong, punish him; but do not bring in his friends. He had been asked by the hon. member for Woodstock about the regulations with regard to the admission of employees to the superannuation fund. Well, a Bill had been drafted, and would shortly be introduced amalgamating the existing Bills, and in it it would be possible to make provisions for the cases mentioned by Dr. Hewat. He was prepared to treat the cases quite fairly, and not deprive any man of the privilege of getting into the superannuation fund. With regard to insurance a couple of years ago the local companies had fleeced the Government —he was not putting it too strongly by calling it “fleeced”—he thought they had charged them as much as 8s. He then had the thing done in England for something like 2s., and saved, by so doing, from £16,000 to £20,000. (Cheers.) Afterwards, the companies had come to their senses—(cheers)—and they could now insure here at the same rate; and if the companies give the same, or nearly the same, terms as in England, the Government would insure with them. (Hear, hear.) Replying to the hon. member for George (Mr. Currey), he said that the members of the Railway Board were all-time” officers.

What money is this‘£1,000 allowance?

It is house allowance for two members of the Board—£500 each.

drew attention to the question of free passes issued to members, and thought that the Government was too liberal in that respect. If that system was to continue much longer, it would have the effect of inducing people to come to that House to represent their own interests, and not the interests of their constituents.

asked what the amount of £5,000, education, Cape Province, was for?

We have railway schools in the Cape Province, which were taken over comparatively recently by the Education Department.

The vote was agreed to.

A number of other votes were passed without discussion.

On vote 8, charges in connection with hire of railway lines,

inquired about the object of the vote.

said that the line in question was built by a company, worked by the Natal Government, and paid for at a fixed rate. Until the contract expired the Government would have to continue paying for the hiring of the line.

asked whether the Government were taking steps to bring about uniformity in the rates, and to sweep away the existing discrepancies?

said that the matter was under consideration.

called attention to the case of men employed in the refreshment-room of the House, who had been detailed from the Railway Department. These men, he said, were paid 5s. a day, and had to commence work at 6.45 a.m., and were kept at work until the House rose, being thus employed sometimes 16½ hours in a day. He hoped their case would be considered by the Minister, because he understood that “tips” had been stopped in the House. (“Oh” and laughter.)

The vote was agreed to.

said that he entirely agreed with the hon. member that there should be some stipulation made to prevent exorbitant charge being made for periodicals at the Railway bookstalls. Tenders had been called for, and he had inserted a clause in regard to the prices of some of the periodicals.

said that in thinking over what he had said a short time ago, he thought it contained an implication. He never intended anything of the sort, and he hoped the House would accept his explanation. (Hear, hear.)

Other votes were passed without discussion.

asked the Minister if, before letting sites at the Cape Town Docks for industrial purposes, would be consult with all the local authorities?

asked that due consideration should be given to services rendered by Durban Harbour in connection with the railways.

In reply to Mr. J. SEARLE (Port Elizabeth, South-west),

said he had what he considered the very highest authority against building a lighthouse at Slangkop. He had been told that a lighthouse at Slangkop instead of saving life, would lead to the loss of life. That being the case, he hesitated about embarking on a very expensive undertaking which might be worse than useless. With regard to Mr. Baxter’s question, he (Mr. Sauer) thought he had said that he would not let sites at all in the Cape Town Docks. He would not do so until the local bodies had had an ample opportunity of expressing their opinion on the matter.

said he would like to bear testimony to the improvements that had been made in the lighthouses around the coast.

The vote was agreed to.

asked if the Cape Point light had been lowered?

said he would show his hon. friend the report on the subject.

The vote was agreed to.

The Estimates were reported without amendment.

The Estimates were reported and adopted by the House.

asked to be allowed to make a short statement in reply to a question put by the hon. member for Cape Town with regard to a vote on the Estimates providing for the employment of Indians. The hon. member had also asked if recruiting would be continued. Well, the position was that a number of Indians had been employed for some years on the Natal branch of the Union Railways under contracts. He had inquired as to what difference it would make were the contracts of these men terminated immediately, and he had been told that the service would be dislocated. He had also ascertained that 3,500 Indians were employed. He had found that much inconvenience would be caused if the contracts were canceled; but as a policy he would say that no more would be employed after these contracts had expired. (Hear, hear.)

Is recruiting going on?

It has stopped for the railway.

I should like to ask—

There is nothing before the House. The hon. member is out of order.