from Anna Botma, teacher, Education Department.

from S. J. F. Weich, teacher, Education Department.

from W. E. Pienaar, Dutch Master, Gill College High School.

from G. Montague, police constable and gaoler.

from inhabitants of Somerset East, in support of the petition of G. Montague.

as Chairman, brought up the report of the Select Committee, reporting the Bill with amendments.

moved, seconded by Mr. VAN EEDEN: That the Bill be read a second time on Wednesday, the 28th instant

Agreed to.

Proclamation No. 24 of 1910, amending the regulations under Parts III., IV., and V. of the Second Schedule to Act No. 27 of 1908 (Irrigation Act, Transvaal).

Expenditure on improvement of curves and gradients between Durban and Charlestown, 1890 to 1910, inclusive; increased or decreased length of line so brought about, and other particulars,

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether he has any information about the rumour that the Administration of Swaziland is selling Government land there to private speculators; and, if so, (2) whether he is in a position to state how much land has already been disposed of or sold, to whom, and at what price; and (5) what steps do the Government intend to take in order to prevent the sale of such land, especially in view of the eventual incorporation of Swaziland in the Union?

I have made inquiries, and I am informed that there has recently been a transaction with Lord Lovat, who has agreed to purchase 29,000 morgen in different blocks at an average price of about 7s. 6d. per morgen, and has been granted an option over a further 55,000 margen. I am further informed that no land is being sold for speculative purposes, and that apart from this transaction there has been no sale of any importance. The Union Government has no power to prevent the sale of land in Swaziland, but the importance of the question having regard to the prospective interest of the Union in that territory is fully recognised, and representations are being made to the Imperial Government with a view to ensuring that in the disposal of Grown lands due consideration is shown to private landowners in the country who have suffered losses in consequence of the recent native partition.

asked the Minister of Public Works when a commencement will be made with the building of the new post-office at Willowmore, and whether he will gave the local authorities an opportunity of first seeing the plans of the building?

replied that it was anticipated the work would be commenced early in the next financial year. It was not the usual practice to consult local bodies in such matters, as it might be taken that the local requirements would be adequately studied and the postal needs of the community provided for. He might say, however, that if his hon. friend called at the offices of the Public Works Department he would gladly show him the plans and discuss them with him.

asked the Minister of Lands whether the Government intend to carry out the recommendations contained in the report of the Director of Irrigation for 1909 with regard to the islands at Keimoes, in the Orange River?

Before Government can deal with the land referred to, it is necessary to exclude it from the list of demarcated forests, and steps to obtain the sanction of Parliament to this course, in terms of section 3 of Act No. 20 of 1902 (Cape), will he taken this session.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether his attention had been drawn to the fact that the railway tariff for the conveyance of sulphur was 200 per cent. higher than the tariff for other dips; and, if so, whether, seeing that sulphur was such an excellent dip, and was used so extensively, the Government was prepared to lower the charge for the same to that for other dips?

replied that he had made an investigation into the matter, from which it appeared that there was no case where the rate was 200 per cent. higher. He had the figures, which he would gave the hon. member.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, if in areas declared infected under the East Coast fever regulations, owners of uninfected cattle unanimously agree to fence their farms, such owners may expect that the Government will take the necessary steps to compel the owners of neighbouring farms, whether unoccupied or hired, and occupied by natives, to hear their portion of the cost of fencing, and, if not, whether the Government is prepared to make it compulsory to fence farms in infected areas?

replied that there was no legislation for the case mentioned by the hon. member.

asked whether the office of Medical Officer of Health for the Colony for the time being, referred to in section 4 of the Cape of Good Hope Medical and Pharmacy Amendment Act, No. 7 of 1899, has not ceased to exist, and whether any member of the Medical Council of the Cape Province, appointed ex-officio under the provisions of the said section, still retains his seat?

The Medical Officer of Health for the Province of the Cape of Good Hope, appointed ex-officio under the provisions of section 4 of Act (Cape of Good Hope) No. 7 of 1899, as a member of the Colonial Medical Council, still retains his seat on the Council.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether he is aware of the inconvenience caused to the travelling public by the discontinuance of the postcart service between Avontuur and George; and, if so, whether he will have the same restored?

replied that prior to September, 1909, there was a post-cart service between Doorn River (a point on the George to Oudtshoorn postcart route) and Avontuur. Owing to an arrangement in the running of trains on the Port Elizabeth and Avontuur railway, consequent upon the imperative necessity for daylight service on that section, the utility of the Avontuur-Doorn River route, from a postal point of view, ceased, and it was accordingly shut down. Mails for George now circulated from Oudtshoorn and from Avontuur, from Uniondale-road, on the Oudtshoorn-Klipplaat line of railway. The cost of the old posteart route was £289 per annum, and the only two points which would now benefit by it, namely, Molen River and Spielmanskraal, were being provided with postal facilities at an annual cost of £82. There was no intention of restarting the Doorn River-Avontuur postcart service, the provision of facilities for the travelling public in this respect being a requirement that should be met by private enterprise.

asked the Minister of Public Works whether he is aware of the great necessity for opening up the districts of Humansdorp and Uniondale by the construction of good roads over the mountainous parts; and, if so, whether he will have a competent officer sent to those parts to confer with the members of the Divisional Councils, and report thereon to the Government?

replied that the matter in point was one for treatment by the Administrator of the Cape Province, but he might say that the necessities of the districts represented by the hon. member had long been well known to the Government, and as he is aware, it was only the fact that the Colony for a prolonged period suffered from acute financial depression that retarded an earlier recognition of the needs of the case. With the extremely restricted staff available for all operations of the Cape Public Works Department in recent years, and the necessity for extreme economy in expenditure, it was impossible to gave to the development of the districts named, and to many others, the attention they well deserved. It was hoped, however, that matters in this respect might improve in the near future.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) Whether Government funds have been advanced to co-operative wineries bearing interest at the rate of 3 per cent. per annum, with 1 per cent. sinking fund, and, if so, what amount; (2) has interest been duly paid on any such advances, and, if not, what amounts are overdue, and by whom; (3) if interest upon any such advances has not been paid, what steps do the Government intend taking for the recovery thereof; and (4) has the Government any knowledge that the co-operative wineries sell their products without a licence (no licence being required by such co-operative wineries) to retail dealers and private consumers, in unfair competition with duly licensed wholesale and retail merchants, and will the Government take such measures as will prevent Government funds being used to encourage and foster this unfair competition?

replied that the information was being collected.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware of the action of the management of the Aurora West United Gold Mining Co. in considerably reducing the wages of a number of their employees without previously giving a month’s notice, as required by section 5, sub-section (1) of the Transvaal Industrial Disputes Prevention Act, and if so, (2) whether, in view of the fact that as a result of such action a number of the employees are practically on strike, he will take immediate steps to enforce the provisions of the Act?

A notice was posted by the manager of the company named on the 23rd November, but this notice, on representations of the Inspector of White Labour, has been withdrawn. New notices have been posted giving the statutory notice of intention to introduce new conditions, and the men have returned to work, with the exception of two. The inspector is reporting to me fully on the matter, and I can assure the hon. member that the provisions of the Industrial Disputes Prevention Act will be properly carried out.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he has received tidings that lamziekte or gal ziekte is destroying the flocks in the district of Boshof; and, if so, whether the Government does not consider it highly desirable to take the necessary steps forthwith either to combat this destructive disease or to send an expert to that district to make such tests as may lead to the discovery of an effective remedy against it?

replied that an investigation was proceeding, and that the Government was negotiating with a gentleman who claimed to possess a preventive.

asked the Minister of Education whether the Government will take into consideration the desirability of placing a sum on next year’s Estimates, for the purpose of restoring to teachers in the Cape Province the 15 per cent. bonus taken away from them in 1908?

asked that the question should stand over, as he could not supply the information at the present time.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) When the existing cable contracts expire; and (2) whether, when making a fresh contract, the Government will arrange for a reduction in the charges, seeing that in England and elsewhere reductions in charges have not only been greatly appreciated by the public, but have also led to a largely-increased revenue.

replied that the arrangements expired on December 31, 1S19. The present subsidies were arranged upon a basis of a standard revenue of £300,000 per annum being earned. Any earnings over that sum were shared equally between the Government and the Cable Company until the subsidies were extinguished. For the last three years the standard revenue of £300,000 had not been reached, and the subsidies had had to be paid in full. The cable earnings were on the increase, and in 1909 £283,054 was collected. The question of a reduction of charges had not been lost sight of, and action would be taken at an opportune moment.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Why the work on the construction of the railway line between Benoni and Welgedacht has been suspended; and (2) whether it is the intention of the Government to complete this line, and, if so, when?

said that the work was started for the convenience of certain mines, and it was understood that they were to contribute. Some had paid and others not, and until all did, it was not proposed to proceed.

asked the Minister of Finance whether steps cannot be taken to discontinue the practice of requiring cheques to be re-stamped when passing from one Province to another.

A consolidating stamp duties law is in course of preparation, which it is hoped to introduce during the present session of Parliament. The Bill will deal with all anomalies such as that mentioned in the question under reply arising out of the existing stamp duty laws in each Province.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether the Government will take into favourable consideration the question of connecting Dealesville and Boshof and Dealesville and Bloemfontein by telephone; and, if so when a commencement with the said connection will be made?

said that owing to the small revenue that would accrue it was thought that the work would not be justified. The matter, however, was being investigated.

A A

asked the Prime Minister whether, seeing that numerous important commercial and industrial questions were raised by Chambers of Commerce with the late Minister of Commerce and Industries, none of which have yet been settled, he will inform the House whether it is the intention to fill the Portfolio of Commerce and Industries, and, if so, when?

said that the matter was still engaging his earnest attention. (Laughter.) Matters affecting that department were referred to the Minister of the Interior.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether an increase has been made in the charges in the Transvaal for the registration of telegraphic addresses; and, if so, (2) whether, seeing that cable companies make no charge for registration of cable addresses, he is prepared to abolish such charge or to reduce it to a purely nominal figure?

said that uniformity of charge had been secured by an increase of 1s. in the Transvaal. The registration of these addresses threw extra work on the department, and an extra fee was justifiable. It was considered that the present charge was justifiable.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether it is true that in July last, in consequence of an outbreak of tick fever on the farm Driefontein, No. 2,138, Waterberg, the native-owned cattle were destroyed, whilst those belonging to Mr. Boshoff, a member of the Provincial Council, on the same farm, were not; (2) whether a further outbreak occurred last month among Mr. Boshoff’s cattle; and (3) what is the reason in the difference in treatment of the two lots of cattle?

said it was true that cattle from this farm were slaughtered. At that time the cattle belonging to Mr. Boshoff were not destroyed, as he understood that they had been properly herded, and had not strayed in the affected area. The question of their disposal was being considered. There had been no further outbreak.

moved that the House suspend business to-day at 6 p.m. and resume at 3 p.m., Government business to have precedence from 8 p.m.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the petition from R. J. P. Slabbert and 200 others, inhabitants of Jansenville, praying for consideration of the question of railway connection between Jansenville and Klipplaat, presented to the House on the 29th ult., be referred to the Government for inquiry and report. The hon. member spoke of the construction of the line from Port Elizabeth to Graaff-Reinet, the idea at the time being to get North, and not so much to tap the best parts of the district. The line had been built on the high veld instead of along the rivers, and so it was only to be expected that people would ask for branch lines to be built to the centres of production. It was only along these rivers that great irrigation works could be carried out. The idea was, if the branch line in question was constructed, that it should ultimately be extended to Somerset East. The absence of the railway meant that many people took to transport riding instead of developing the country by settling on the farms. From a tactical standpoint and that of defence, that section of the line would also prove highly useful, as it would be a means of connecting the East and the West. The hon. member read an invitation to the Minister of Railways to visit the district, from which it appeared that they had not been honoured by the visit of a Minister since the days of Sir J. Molteno. The Minister of Railways would be assured of a hearty welcome. He hoped that if the Minister did visit those parts he would see that the line was constructed.

seconded.

said the Government had already made inquiry into the subject of a railway line between Jansenville and Klipplaat and it was quite true he had been officially invited to visit the locality. He had been asked to visit a good many places, and generally made a point of doing so, as he found that on such occasions he was always very well treated. (Laughter.) He had not yet been to the district now in question, but he hoped before long to make a visit. He would prefer that a motion be carried that the question be referred to the Government for consideration rather than for inquiry and report, because, as he had just said, inquiry had already been made, and he did not know to whom to report. He would therefore move as an amendment that the words “inquiry and report” be deleted for the purpose of inserting the word “consideration.”

seconded the amendment.

The motion as amended was agreed to.

moved that the petition from A, Innes and 59 others, inhabitants of Murraysburg, praying for the re-building of the public offices in Murraysburg, presented to the House on December 1, 1910, be referred to the Government for inquiry and report. The hon. member said that the public offices at Murraysburg were unfortunately burnt during the war, and had never been re-built. A sum of insurance money had been paid at the time, and that amount had remained in the hands of the Government for the last ten years. Some years ago an amount was put on the Estimates for re-building those offices, but notwithstanding that the re-building was never proceeded with. He hoped the motion would be agreed to, and that, as a result, the reproach of a town of the importance of Murraysburg being without public offices would be removed.

seconded.

said that the Government had no objection to the motion. The necessary inquiries would be made, and a report would be submitted to the House at a later stage.

The motion was agreed to.

moved for a return showing for each University College: (1) The total grant on the Estimates now before the House; (2) the amounts assigned for: (a) salaries, (b) interest on buildings, (c) payment of sums due by the State Government before Union, and (d) general maintenance (including all sums not specifically assigned): (3) the total number of professors and lecturers; (4) the total number of students during the current year; (5) the total number of students attending professional courses; (6) the total number of students receiving bursaries; (7) the total fees collected from students in receipt of bursaries; (8) the total sum paid out in bursaries (a) from endowments, and (b) from the general revenue of the college; and (9) the total sum paid in salaries to the professors and lecturers.

seconded.

moved, as an amendment to the motion proposed by Mr. Marais: To insert the following new paragraphs, to follow paragraphs (2), (5) and (6) respectively, viz.: “(3) The total sum paid or payable to the Union Government for interest and redemption during the current year; (6) the total number of students not wholly encaged in study, but attending classes for a limited number of hours per week: (7) the total fees collected from all students.”

seconded.

said that the Government had no objection to the motion and to the amendment proposed. Some of the information asked for was not in the possession of the Government, but in the possession of the Councils of the different Colleges, being information relating to private matters. He would ask the Colleges for that information, because he considered it would be a good thing for the House to be in possession of those facts, but he warned the House that if the full information was not forthcoming, it would not be the fault of the Government.

The motion as amended was agreed to.

moved that a petition from S. J Malan, and 81 others, white lepers at present stationed on Robben Island, praying that they may be removed as speedily as possible to the mainland, presented to the House on the 1st inst., be referred to the Government for inquiry and report. The mover said the Government ought to take the matter into its very serious consideration, for the lepers on Robben Island suffered in a way that other lepers confined on the mainland did not, and it was impossible to make the few remaining years of the lives of those on Robben Island as free from misery as would be the case if they were confined on the mainland. Last November Select Committees of both Houses of the old Cape Parliament reported to the effect that Robben Island was eminently unsuitable for the purpose. Many of the lepers belonged to the agricultural classes, and it would be a very good thing if they could have little plots of land which they could till. This was impossible on Robben Island, because of the nature of the soil, and the absence of a proper water supply. By sending lepers to the Island, their sufferings were added to, as lepers had a tendency to chest complaints, which were aggravated on Robben Island, the death of these unfortunate people thus being hastened. Then the conditions were so terrible on Robben Island that people suffering from leprosy concealed the fact that they had the disease. Further, the terrible glare of the sun from the waters of the Bay caused a large number of cases of very severe diseases of the eyes. The only thing that could be said against the removal of the lepers to the mainland was the question of what additional danger it would be to the rest of the community. But there were leper settlements on the mainland, which were conducted in such a way as not to be a danger to the community.

who seconded the motion, hoped that that matter, which affected so many suffering people, would be seriously taken up by the Union Government, and not merely be allowed to remain on paper. If certain lepers were treated in an institution on the mainland, why must others be allowed to remain on Robben Island, to which so many objected owing to the bad climatic conditions? There was now one Government for the whole of South Africa, and something ought to be done for those poor people on Robben Island. In the Cape House they had had reports favourable to the object of the present motion. The condition of the lepers on the Island was heartrending. In case of removal to the mainland, the lepers should be told that unless they obeyed certain conditions, they would be sent back. He doubted whether the Island patients received the comforts usually forwarded by their friends. A farm had been bought in the Caledon district some years ago, but nothing further had been done.

heartily supported the motion. He urged that the matter should be considered by the Union Government as early as possible. These poor people were in a state of absolute uncertainty as to what was going to take place in regard to them, and it was time that the State took definite action. There would be far more contentment if the lepers only knew what was to happen. It, was the duty of Parliament to see that the grievances of these unfortunate people were remedied. The first question that arose in this matter was as to whether it was right to segregate these people at all. Personally, he would express no opinion on that; but he felt that, with the modem advancement of science, there was an unnecessary amount of hardship going on at the present moment in segregating all cases of this description. The things they had to look to to kill this disease were cleanliness, sanitation, and civilisation. It was agreed that leprous patients should be segregated in cases where they were a distinct danger to others, but he contended there were other forms of leprosy, in regard to which the natives should not be banished, as they were to-day, from their homes. It must be remembered that these people were banished not for their own sake, but for the safety of the public. Segregation, as it was carried on in the Cape Colony today, was largely unnecessary. Expert opinion was to the effect that in two-thirds of the cases in which there was segregation there was no danger of contagion, and that the utmost that was necessary in regard to these cases was that they should be kept under observation, while the patients were not removed from their homes. Robben Island, he maintained, was unsuitable as a leper settlement. It was looked upon as a penal settlement, and, moreover, more than half of the leper patients there died from tuberculosis, while the glare was dangerous to the sensitive eyesight of the lepers. Then Robben Island was only a half-finished place. The accommodation was unsuitable, and the lepers had to endure all sorts of inconveniences. The place was absolutely overcrowded. The attendants were also shabbily treated, and were constantly leaving the Island. Proceeding, Dr. Hewat referred to the report of the last Leprosy Committee, the gist of which he declared was exactly what the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle (Mr. Alexander) was asking for now. The committee, he said, felt that there was a great deal of foundation in the complaint regarding the removal of lepers to the mainland, but, as there were facts to be said for and against removal, it strongly urged upon the Government the desirability of appointing a committee at as early a date as possible, with a view to ascertaining whether it was possible to establish a leper settlement on the mainland for at least some of the lepers on Robben Island. Now he would urge the Government to appoint a committee, and come to some decision in the matter. He rose in the House that afternoon as a human being, to crave for justice for those who were suffering from leprosy, and who had been banished to Robben Island, and be appealed to hon. members to support the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Alexander). To his mind, the only way the matter could be solved was by the appointment of an unbiassed, well-qualified expert commission, to sit and gave judgment upon what should be done with these poor unfortunate people. (Cheers.)

said that he was in hearty agreement with the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Alexander). Year after year that matter came un, and yet the lepers remained on Robben Island. Those lepers who came from the Orange Free State, and had some time ago been removed to the leper settlement near Bloemfontein, were much happier there than they had been at Robben Island. He hoped that the Government would take that matter into its serious consideration, and see that these sufferers were removed from Robben Island, which was not best suited for a leper settlement. Financial considerations should not be allowed to weigh at all in the matter.

said that although one had every sympathy with these people on Robben Island, it was not correct to say that Parliament had not paid adequate attention to that matter.

I did not say so.

went on to say to at in 1904, a Select Committee had fully considered the question of leprosy being a communicable disease, and had come to the decision that leprosy was a contagious disease, and that the period of incubation was a comparatively long one. Such a speech as the hon. member for Woodstock (Dr. Hewat) had delivered would only tend to unsettle the minds of the lepers on Robben Island, as he had spoken against segregation.

I rise to a point of order: I did not say that there should not be any segregation.

said that the late Dr. Hoffmann, a former member of the Cape Parliament, who had also gone carefully into the question had ultimately become convinced that segregation was desirable. The hon. member went on to quote an extract from the report of the Select Committee of 1907, adding that, although a circular letter had been sent to all members of the House, no one had advocated any leper settlement on the mainland which was in his own district, except Dr. Viljoen, his former colleague in the Cape House, and himself, who had advocated Hanglip, in the Caledon district, but the existing conditions there were not dissimilar as compared with Robben Island. The Government then bought the farm Vijgeboom, also in the Caledon district, but the difficulties in connection with a final solution soon became apparent. Well, in the face of all that difference of opinion amongst medical men themselves, was it right for hon. members to raise this question of the undesirability of segregation again, which would only raise false hopes in the minds of these lepers, with whom they had every sympathy. The Committee had come to the decision that it would be better not to take these people away from the Island, but to improve the conditions there. If it were practical to transfer these people to an institution on the mainland he would favour that course being adopted, but he could not agree to that matter being brought un in the way it bad been, which would only cause unrest amongst the people concerned, and would, on the whole, do more harm than good. The motion ought to be withdrawn, and the matter left for the Government to deal with.

moved as an amendment that the following be added to the motion: “With a recommendation that a Commission of Inquiry be appointed.” He would point out, in reply to the hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige), that it was not proposed in the not join that segregation should be done away with, but that inquiry should be made as to whether it would not be better that segregation be carried out on the mainland rather than on the Island. Every member of the House was convinced that Robben Island was an unsuitable place to segregate the lepers. Most hon. members, he believed, bad visited the Island, and he was sure that there was not one of them who would elect to be sent there if he had the misfortune to be afflicted with that dreadful disease. Formerly there was a Large number of lepers from the Orange Free State confined there, but those people were all subsequently removed, and it was clear that there must have been some very strong and sound objection against those people continuing to remain there which actuated the late Government of the Free State in incurring the very great expense of removing them back to their own country. Every day they were advancing in their knowledge of the disease, and it was the duty of the Government to obtain the very best expert advice they could get, and if they were advised that no danger was incurred to healthy people by the removal of the lepers to the mainland, then the Government should undertake to effect that removal. If the Hon. the Minister for the Interior had not yet visited the Island, he hoped he would soon do so, and he (Mr. Oliver) was sure the Hon. Minister would come to the conclusion that those unfortunate people would be better situated on the mainland than whore they were at present. It would be quite possible and very desirable to place those people in more congenial and suitable surroundings, and where they could have occupation to take away their minds from dwelling on the disease with which they were afflicted. If it was not dangerous to the health of other portions of the community it would be nothing but right, even at considerable cost, to remove these unfortunate sufferers from their present unpleasant surroundings to some suitable spot on the mainland. He would therefore move that Government appoint a Commission to investigate the conditions on the Island with a view to the removal of the patients to the mainland.

seconded.

pointed out that the appointment of a Commission would involve expenditure, and no private member could move a motion in that direction.

said he would alter his amendment to read that the Government be requested to consider the advisabilty of appointing a Commission of Inquiry.

said that the hon. member for Caledon had read copious extracts from: the report of the Select Committee of 1904. He would, however, point out that the inquiry undertaken by the Committee was not nearly so thorough as that undertaken by the Select Committee that sat five years later. In 1904 not a single leper was called in regard to the conditions on the Island. In 1909 the Committee took evidence not only from doctors, but from the lepers on the Island themselves. It was, therefore, no good going back to the report of the Committee of 1904. That Committee did not say that Robben Island was a suitable place. All that it pointed out was how money could be spent to alleviate the conditions of the patients confined there. Home life was impossible for the unfortunate people on the Island. He did not recommend that if the white lepers were removed that the coloured ones should be left. The unrest had been caused by the reports of the Select Committee.

said that in speaking against the motion he did not do so—as the mover had suggested—because his constituents feared that a leper asylum might be established in the Caledon district.

said that they must not forget that these people were not on Robben Island for their own benefit, but for that of the public, They therefore owed it to those unfortunate patients that they should receive every consideration. He quoted extracts from the report of the Select Committee of the Cape House of Assembly with regard to complaints about the water supply, the damp winds of the Island and the glare of the sand, which was harmful to the eyes of the patients. When they looked to the reports of 1904 and 1909, they must, he said, see that there were serious grievances amongst the lepers because of the climatic conditions of the Island. He hoped that the motion, as amended by the hon. member for Kimberley, would be agreed to. (Hear, hear.)

who agreed with the previous speaker and with the hon. member for Woodstock (Dr. Hewat), thought that the hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige) had not stated his case correctly. If it were proved that the disease was not contagious, was it right that they should keep on confining these poor people on Robben Island? That would not be right; and it was only proper that a full inquiry should be made, as the hon. member for Gape Town (Mr. Alexander) had advocated. The hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige) had spoken of the site at Hanglip, but what sort of place was that for such a disease as leprosy? Surely, there were many better places in the Cape Province, where there was room enough for a suitable leper asylum, where the patients would live under happier conditions than they did at present. (Hear, hear.) He did not think leprosy was contagious; but, in any case, a Commission should be appointed to deal with the matter. He supported the amendment.

said it was an extraordinary thing that while leprosy killed tens, tuberculosis killed thousands, they allowed people affected with the latter to roam about the country, yet lepers were segregated. He was sorry to say that in regard to this matter the country was in exactly the same position as it was 20 years ago. Having described Robben Island as a perfect Golgotha, Sir Bisset proceeded: “I hope, in the name of our common humanity, the Government will wake up in this matter—(cheers)—and that, without any further delay, it will not only put out a Commission, but will take the matter in hand, and, in spite of the ignorance and prejudice which prevails in this country, will bring the unfortunate people to the mainland. There are more lepers walking about the Cape than there are segregated on Robben Island.” (Cheers.)

mentioned that when Government purchased a farm on the mainland for a leper settlement, Parliament was besieged in order to have the idea abandoned. At Emjanyana the lepers lived as happily as could be expected under the circumstances. The difficulty was in keeping the lepers there, and a very large staff of police would be required to keep them there. He mentioned this to indicate that there were difficulties in the matter, but those difficulties should not hinder the Government and the Parliament in making a big effort to deal with the matter satisfactorily. They needed one uniform policy for the whole country.

said he need not say that the Government fully recognised that this matter deserved the most careful consideration, and the most sympathetic treatment. The lepers were a part of the community which was segregated very largely in the interests of the community at large, and the State ought to see carefully to the measures taken for their segregation. It would be recognised, however, that from the nature of their complaint, and their constant contemplation of their own calamities, the lepers were one of the most difficult classes of people in the world to satisfy, and even if their removal from Robben Island to the mainland took place, it would not put an end to the chronic dissatisfaction that existed. For that reason he thought discussions of this kind, unless they were to lead to some definite action, were most strongly to be deprecated; the effect of such discussions was only to unsettle the minds of these people still more than they were ordinarily unsettled. As to the general question of segregation, he did not wish to say much. He knew it was a difficult subject, but in the present state of medical knowledge it was deemed advisable to segregate lepers at present. There were no doubt different kinds of leprosy, but he thought it would be unwise, with the ignorance there was on this question, to separate them into classes, and put one class in one place and one in another. He thought the extreme limit which caution would justify was reached now, when other isolation was allowed them in the recognised asylums in cases in which medical opinion was that such a course would not be dangerous. As to this motion, he supposed the mover did not mean that Commissions should go on sitting without any result, as had been the case in the Cape for years. He thought what his hon. friend wanted was one uniform medical system of segregating the lepers. Well, the Gape Government had appointed one expert of high qualifications to conduct leprosy researches, and the Union Government were taking steps to secure the return to this country of Dr. Turner, who was one of the acknowledged greatest experts in the world, to continue his valuable researches in this country. He thought they had a better prospect of arriving at a sound conclusion in that way than by appointing Commissions consisting of gentlemen who, while of high standing in the general medical profession, were not experts on leprosy. He hoped the hon. member would be satisfied with these measures to continue and extend the valuable research work. The hon. member for Queen’s Town (Sir W. Bisset Berry) asked too much if he asked that consumptives should be dealt with on the same basis as lepers. He agreed that stringent measures should be taken to deal with the scourge of consumption, and he proposed to submit to the House such stringent measures. This was a matter which would receive the most anxious and serious consideration of the Government, for it was an important matter, and one upon which every human person must entertain the strongest feelings.

In reply to Mr. H. A. OLIVER (Kimberley)

said no doubt one of the questions which would be submitted to the experts would be the advisability or otherwise of removing the Robben Island lepers to the mainland.

said he did not think the Minister realised fully the change that had taken place since Union. Shortly before Union, the Free State Government removed their lepers from Robben Island to the mainland. The Minister of the Interior was now administering the island leper settlement and three inland settlements. Naturally, the friends of the Robben Island patients demanded that the fullest investigation should foe undertaken with a view to ascertaining what the public health of the community demanded in the matter of segregation, and whether the island patients should not receive the same privileges as those on the mainland. He was glad to hear, as no doubt all members were glad to hear, that the Government were going to engage the services of Dr. Turner. What he would like to know was whether Dr. Turner and the other medical officer on Robben Island would carry out investigations such as had been suggested, whether the report of those gentlemen would be laid on the table, and whether the House, with that report before it, would have an opportunity of deciding whether the segregation of these unfortunate people should take place on the mainland instead of on Robben Island. He thought that if they could get that assurance it would settle the point once and for all. If they looked into the administration of leprosy in Norway, they would find that the lepers there had a large amount of freedom, but provision was made for preventing the spread of the disease to their neighbours. Surely that was what this House expected the Government would do. He could assure the Minister that hon. members regretted the necessity of debating this question session after session. They knew that these debates were injurious to the peace of the lepers on Robben Island, but they also knew that until such a Commission of investigation which had been referred to had been appointed and reported it was impossible to prevent these debates. He thought the House should be placed in possession of a report by the best scientific authorities upon the disease, and that the House and the country should be allowed to decide whether they should continue to segregate on Robben Island, or on the mainland. Robben Island could always be in reserve as a place to which to transfer people who refused to recognise the necessity of segregation, and if they had a terror of that sort he thought they would make the vast majority who lived on the mainland carry out the regulations which might be recommended by the medical authorities in the general interests of the public health of the country. There was no doubt that they had an enormous responsibility. If scientific investigators said that segregation should take place on Robben Island, then the House would agree to it, but if segregation could take place on the mainland, then it was the duty of the House and the country to make provision for those unfortunate people who were placed in a most deplorable condition on Robben Island. (Cheers.)

said he considered the report of two or even three medical men would be absolutely no use as a guide to hon. members of the House. The undertaking was altogether too big, as also was the responsibility. He had been a member of previous committees which had sat upon the question of leprosy, and had given the subject great study; and to-day he had a very open opinion. That was why he supported the motion. If they appointed a commission, and it obtained evidence from experts in the country, and collected evidence from all parts of the world as to the treatment of leprosy, and then submitted its report, he was quite prepared to accept that report as the opinion which was going to guide him as regards the future of lepers in this country. He was strongly of opinion that this question could not be settled until a proper scientific commission had been appointed, and had reported. He hoped that the question of expense would not be considered, because there was no expense too great in a matter of this kind. He hoped that the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Kimberley (Mr. Oliver) would be accepted.

said that he was prepared to accept the amendment.

The amendment was then put and agreed to, and

The motion as amended was also agreed to.

moved that the petition from Dr. Petersen and 1,124 others, praying for the removal of the lepers from Robben Island, presented to the House on the 1st inst., be referred to the Government for inquiry and report.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved: “That the petition from W. S. Colegate and 47 others, attendants and nurses, on the subject of the rules and regulations in force in the Fort England Asylum, Graham’s Town, presented to the House on the 1st inst., be referred to the Government for consideration.” The mover said that he had no intention of pressing the matter, because he had already communicated with the Minister of the Interior, and had received a sympathetic reply. He wished to point out that the grievances of these people were not only in regard to pay, but also in connection with the inequalities of hours of work and recreation, as compared with asylums in other parts of the Union. Although it might be reasonable that the pay of the attendants and nurses in the asylum at Pretoria should be greater owing to the higher cost of living, still there was no reason why the hours of work and recreation of the petitioners should not be the same. There was no reason for the present inequalities, and he had no doubt that the Minister would gave the matter sympathetic consideration.

seconded.

said that he had already had a great deal to do with asylums in the Cape Province, and he wished to say that owing to the financial state of the country these institutions had been very greatly understaffed, and that those employed in them had grievances. If hon. members looked at the Estimates, they would find the first instalment towards improving the present state of affairs.

The motion was agreed to.

moved: “That the petition from Jantje Mtoto Gqamana, chairman of the Ethiopian Catholic Church, and two other members of that Church, praying that ministers of their denomination may be recognised as marriage officers, presented to the House on the 1st inst., be referred to the Government for consideration.” The mover said the petitioners were humble folk. There were ten ministers, and the congregation numbered 2,550. They were a very respectable class, and were favourably spoken of, and he hoped the Minister of the Interior would gave the matter his favourable Consideration. He knew that there was a difficulty in the matter. Some of the officers of the old Cape Government used to object to giving ministers of this class the right to solemnise. Still the difficulty could be overcome. These people liked to solemnise marriages in their own way.

seconded. He declared that a change was inevitable in a matter of this sort. It could not be denied that certain people connected with the Ethiopian movement had at times assumed positions they were not fitted to take, and Ethiopianism, partly for that reason, had undoubtedly got a bad name. With regard to the branch of Ethiopianism affected by the motion, he had gone into the matter, and had come to the conclusion that they were a genuine body, and that many of the ministers of that body were people who had received a very good education, an education equal to that received by the native ministers of other denominations. In fact, some of them had gone over to that Church from other denominations where they had originally received their training and education. He contended that as a general rule all properly ordained ministers of every denomination should be allowed, if they were capable and educated enough, to become marriage officers for the people of the Church to which they belonged. He was sure no injustice would be done, but, on the other hand, justice, if the rights of the ministers referred to in the motion to solemnise marriages were recognised.

said he did not object to the motion, and if carried the petition would be given consideration. He would point out, however, that a great deal of difficulty sometimes presented itself in those cases. Applications were made from time to time for the admission of the ministers of the sects which arose from time to time as marriage officers, and he found it was very necessary to scrutinise those applications very carefully. Firstly, the question of the Church concerned must be gone into, and, secondly, the Government had to be satisfied that by education and training the person applying was a fit and efficient person to become a public servant as a marriage officer. He had always dealt with such cases very cautiously, and scrutinised applications very carefully, and in the particular case now under discussion, and in every similar case, he proposed to continue to proceed on those lines.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition of P. W. Michau and 101 others, inhabitants of the town and district of Cradock, presented to the House on the 6th inst., and praying that the question of building the public offices at Cradock be taken into favourable consideration, be referred to the Government for inquiry and report.

seconded.

said the Government had no objection to the motion.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from S. P. Budunele and 36 others, praying for the grant of a farm in the district of Barkly West, presented to the House on the 7th inst., be referred to the Government for inquiry and report.

seconded.

said the Government had no objection to the motion, and recognised that the petition was one well worthy of inquiry.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the departmental report on the recent medical examination of school children in the Transvaal be laid upon the table of the House. The hon. member said that the inspection took place at the beginning of the year, and he thought it was time that the report was presented to Parliament.

seconded.

said that there would be no objection to laying the report on the table of the House as soon as it was printed. The medical inspection of schools was inaugurated in the Transvaal this year, and a vast amount of information had been gathered, which had to be properly digested and tabulated. The preparation of the report was now nearing completion, and he hoped shortly to 1ay it on the table of the House. The motion was agreed to.

moved for a return showing: (1) All papers since the beginning of 1904 bearing on the question whether daily-paid employees shall be admitted to the fixed establishment, in accordance with the provisions of the Cape Civil Service Act; and (2) the number of daily-paid railway men who have been admitted to the fixed establishment in each year since 1904.

seconded.

said he would like to know if the first part of the motion referred to railway men only, or to daily-paid men in the public service generally. The second part of the motion was limited to railway men, but there was no indication in this direction in the first part.

said he would be prepared to accept an amendment inserting the word “railway” and “daily-paid” in part (1) of the motion.

moved an amendment accordingly.

seconded.

said that if the amendment was carried the return would be of very little use for the purpose for which it was originally called.

said he had no objection to supplying the information with regard to railway men.

The motion as amended was agreed to.

moved that all papers and correspondence in connection with the retirement of Mr. H. le Riche, late assistant chief scab inspector in Griqualand West, be laid on the table of the House. The hon. member said that Mr. Le Riche had been an inspector for 16 years. It had been complained that he had not kept his books, or had not carried out his duties efficiently. A committee had, however, investigated these complaints, and as a result, Mr. Le Riche had been reinstated. At present it was alleged that he had not attended to his duties, but during all that time the man had been employed nothing had been said against him, and now these charges were brought. He (the hon. member) had received no less than 30 letters from constituents on the matter, which he would not read, as it would take up the time of the House too long. All he asked for was that an inquiry should be made, and if it were proved that the man was inefficient, he would have no objection to Mr. Le Riche’s retirement, but at present the position was most unsatisfactory. If the inquiry were not made, there would be a feeling that an innocent man had to suffer for someone else. He did not think that it was right that the final decision should rest with the chief inspector. The Minister should personally investigate matters of this kind.

who seconded the motion, said that there was a strong feeling in his district about that matter, as the mover of the motion had said. A Select Committee had dealt with a similar matter some years ago, and it had decided that it was not right that a man should be dismissed by the chief inspector without any right of appeal or redress. He did not wish to reflect on the chief inspector, but still they must not withhold from an assistant inspector a right which they gave a criminal—the right of appeal, or to have his case reviewed. The hon. member said that Mr. Le Riche had done good work for the 16 years he had worked in the district.

further explained that the motion was by no means meant as an attack on the Minister. The people had become reconciled to the Scab Act, but if inspectors were to be unjustly dismissed, public opinion might veer round once more. He trusted that a magisterial inquiry would be held if necessary.

said that he would accept the motion. The documents in question would be laid on the table, but he could not promise a magisterial inquiry.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the Government be Requested to take into consideration the advisability of giving advances or subsidies for the purpose of sinking boreholes for water on Crown land to persons to whom, under Act No. 42 of 1908 (Cape), permission was granted, or may be granted to prospect for water on Crown land. The hon. member said that the development of agriculture had been the pet theme of the House. The hon. member for Georgetown had even advocated wholesale State-aided immigration. The motion did not go so far as that—it merely asked for assistance to people in the country itself, not did it constitute an innovation. As far back as 1885 Government had subsidised boring for water. The scheme had had such good results that in 1902 subsidies were also given to individual farmers. It was then found that agriculture benefited materially, and in 1907 subsidies had been given for sinking boreholes and wells, which system had worked very well, although in 1908, owing to the financial depression, that had been stopped, but he understood that was only temporary. He was disappointed to hear that the Government did not intend to re-grant these subsidies. The hon. member spoke of the great difficulties in the North-west owing to the want of water and the necessity of boring for it. The people, many of them, were poor, and to obtain money to bore for water had to sell some of their sheep; and it sometimes happened that when the borehole had been completed the sheep were gone—and then they had more poor whites. They did not ask for doles, but merely for assistance, so that a start could be made with sinking boreholes. Continuing, he said that they talked of immigration, but conditions were such in the Northwest that some people preferred to go across the border to German territory, as conditions were better there. The Government talked of developing the country; now, here was a chance to do so.

seconded.

said that he, as representing the largest constituency in the country, cordially endorsed the principle of the motion, but said that there was a considerable discrepancy in the Dutch and English texts. The mover had referred to advances without considering the question of ways and means. In view of what had already been accomplished in the Cape, advances, how ever, could readily be defended. They had led to the digging of many wells in the past. It was desirable to support pioneers who set about to develop new districts. The Government had announced that no further grants would be given. How, then, were the people going to be assisted? Water was a necessity to them, but they were not well off, and could not afford to pay for boring. Unfortunately, the Minister did not know the country, not did the heads of departments, so that the complaints of its inhabitants resembled a voice crying in the desert. When information was wanted the Magistrate was always appealed to, but it did not follow that he was the man best fitted to supply it. The tract of country in question contained a good many farms that were suitable for occupation, but the Minister had said that no further ground would be allotted until water had been located. This practically meant the closing of the door, because it would take a long time to find water. In order to extend the benefits of the motion, he moved, as an amendment, to include all grounds allocated under Act 14 of 1895 (as amended by Act 32 of 1908) and Act 23 of 1893.

seconded.

said he heartily supported the motion, which deserved the most earnest consideration of the Government. What was wanted was a system of loans such as they had under the Fencing Act. Owing to the enormous tract of country and the great distances between the farms, there was absolutely no co-operation whatever. The people did not ask for doles, but simply for assistance to open up the country, and to enable them to set to work in a systematic way and to have their efforts crowned with success.

said that there were many other landowners who were in similar straits. The motion however, confined the matter to those who had no land, and he would like to move an amendment to assist those who had land and required assistance. His amendment was that in the second line the words “or subsidies” be deleted, and that at the end of the motion the following words be added. “and also to landowners on the principle of repayment, as provided in Act 37 of 1909.” Proceeding, he said that they had an Irrigation Act, under which people were assisted to get water for irrigation purposes, but they also had a class of people who wanted assistance for the purpose of getting water for their stock. His amendment would meet that class of people, and he hoped it would be accepted.

seconded.

said that the amendment would defeat the object of the motion, which ought to be supported, because it was the duty of the State to improve its own property: in this case Crown lands.

hoped that the hon. member for Jansenville (Mr. Oosthuisen) would withdraw his amendment, as there was an enormous difference between districts which had been inhabited for a couple of hundred years and the North-west, where there were such difficult conditions to contend with, and there was so much poverty. The hon. member for Jansenville’s only object in moving the amendment was to wreck the motion.

also hoped that the second amendment would be withdrawn, and regretted that the hon. member (Mr. Oosthuisen) had moved it. He could never vote for grants to private farmers, for these had not proved a success in the past.

said that when it came to a question of real assistance to the North-west, hon. members could depend on the Government, and not merely as far as “sympathy” was concerned. (Hear, hear.) Under Act 42 of 1908 (Cape) a man who had a permit could prospect for water on Crown lands, but they could not gave an advance to a man with only a permit and nothing besides: It would not be right either for a man to sink wells on his own ground, and for the Government to bear all the expense, if no water were found. The Government, however, had the matter of how best to deal with Crown lands under consideration. There was, he felt sure, a way out of their difficulties. They had a Land Bank elsewhere, and he thought that they could also devise something to come to the assistance of those who wished to develop the country here, too. Where there was a will, there was a way. It was not a problem which could easily be solved, but still the Government would do its best to see what could be done for poor whites and the opening up of Crown lands. (Hear, hear.) They would bore for water themselves.

said he hoped the amendment would be withdrawn, as if carried it would tend to defeat the object of the hon. member who had put the motion on the paper. In the Crown lands in the North-west the Government had a very large asset, but that asset could never be fully realised unless people were induced to go and settle there and develop the land. Uufortunately, the people who did go there were people who had not much money, and with the small means at their disposal they were unable to sink wells for water as it was necessary in most cases to go to an extreme depth before water was reached. Those people had no facility for getting a bore, and they were not in a financial position to combine amongst themselves and get a Government bore to that part of the country. He had always advocated in the old Cape Parliament that it was the duty of the Government to do a great deal to develop the underground water resources of the country. At the present time boring operations could be so cheaply carried out that on the ordinary farms in the country it was not necessary for the farmer to ask any more than a Government subsidy. The old Cape Parliament had not been ungenerous in assisting farmers in connection with boring for water, and a few years ago a loan of £100,000 was raised for that purpose. Altogether £400,000 had been advanced in the Cape Colony by the Government to assist in boring operations throughout the country, and that led to very great development. The development had been of such a character that everyone now realised the advantages of water-boring, and owing to the large number of syndicates and private firms which had started boring plants, the price, which used to be something from 18s. to 20s. per foot, had now come down to 4s., 5s., and 6s. per foot. In the North western districts on the Crown lands, however, the position was different, and the only way for the Government to aid in the development of those districts was to either have a fund and allow the people to borrow money at a cheap rate of interest, or to subsidise, as owing to the depth at which water lay it was almost impossible for the ordinary poor man to strike water with the money and means at his own disposal. If the matter were seriously taken in hand by Government, the time would come when the North-western districts would be as developed as any other part of the country, and when a permanent water supply was developed there they would be able to go on and open up the country still farther back. He hoped the Minister for Lands would consider the advisability of the Government sending their drills to that part of the country, and so try to establish permanent water supplies. If that were done, when the Government gave that land out to settlers, they would be able to demand a larger rent than they could ask for when there was no water supply developed. He was very glad to hear the policy enunciated by the Hon. the Minister for Lands, and he could assure the Hon. Minister that a policy of that kind would receive as cordial support from his (Dr. Smartt’s) side of the House as it would receive from the Government side. The resources of the country must be developed. There was no wealth which did not originally spring from the land. (Hear, hear.) It was only from the land they had primary production, and it was only on account of that production that wealth was forthcoming which allowed for other industries being carried on.

said, in reply, that before the people referred to by the Minister of Lands could sink a well, they had to be in possession of a licence.

It was not a matter which could be delayed, because if they did, these people would have left the district, and might, perhaps, be classed under the poor whites. He trusted, therefore, that the Government would not persist in its policy of delay. He looked on the hon. member for Jansenville’s amendment as a joke, not did he agree at all with what the hon. member for Fort Beaufort had said on this occasion. He accepted the amendment of the hon. member for Bechuanaland.

withdrew has amendment.

The amendment proposed by Mr. D. H. W. Wessels (Bechuanaland) was agreed to.

moved that the petition from Dr. E. Gauss, and 144 others, inhabitants of the Province of the Cape of Good Hope, praying that the lepers may be removed from Robben Island to the mainland, presented to the House on the 8th instant, be referred to the Government for inquiry and report.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from R. D. Voss, and 334 others, inhabitants of Griqualand West, praying for the construction of a line of railway from Belmont to Douglas, presented to the House on the 9th of December, 1910, be referred to the Government for inquiry and report. The hon. member said that the railway in question had been authorised in 1906 when the present Opposition had been in power, and he, therefore, hoped that he would receive its support. The hon. member for Prieska (Mr. Kuhn) had just spoken of developing the country; and here was another way of doing the same. The district was a splendid one, and only needed opening by means of a railway line. Griqualand West had in the past been treated as the milch cow of the Cape Colony, but now they had other milchcows—the mines of the Rand—too. The railway in question would be cheap to construct, and it would pay well. The country, from a railway standpoint, was not a difficult one, there being an absence of heavy grades. They had already constructed irrigation works in expectation of a railway line. There was at present a notable lack of transport, and some people lived 180 miles from the nearest railway station. Wagon transport was too expensive owing to the sandy roads.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

Business was suspended at 5.58 p.m.

moved that the items be taken seriatim.

Agreed to.

drew attention to the amount set down for four medical officers, and said that in the interests of public health they must have a central controlling body. They only wanted one medical officer for the Union. He pointed out that at the present the country was troubled with certain preventible diseases, which required the most urgent attention, and unless some action were taken they would be unable to keep those diseases within a reasonable limit. Fox that reason alone, he hoped that the Minister of the Interior would see his way clear to have a controlling medical officer for the Union on the next Estimates. In addition, he took exception to medical officers being included among secretaries and clerks, and he thought that this showed that these highly qualified gentlemen were merely advisers to the Minister of the Interior. There should be a chief of a department which would deal entirely with matters affecting public health. He moved to reduce the amount of £1,200, “medical officers, by £5.

said that on the first point, that they should have one medical officer dealing with the health of the whole of the Union his hon. friend must bear in mind that they were working under the old Colonial statutes and until some statutory change was made that system would have to be carried on. He felt the force of the arguments that had been advanced by hon. members on the other side; he felt very strongly on the subject, and he hoped at the earliest possible moment to complete this unification. With regard to the other point—that there should be a medical officer at the head of a special department of public health—he did not know whether the question had been fully considered. But what he did want was that the medical officers of the Union should have the fullest authority in dealing with matters of public health; but if they did what was suggested they would have these highly qualified officials burdened with a lot of administrative work, and that was what he wished to avoid. They were highly qualified men, and he for one was against them being burdened with administrative details. He went on to refer to the fact that when he came to Cape Town he inquired into the working of the Department of Public Health, and found three medical men of the highest qualifications sitting in the office and doing clerical work. Instead of doing medical, they were doing administrative work. He did what he thought best under the circumstances. He set them free from this administrative work, and they had since been inspecting asylums and local institutions, and doing medical work ever since, and the clerical department of the Minister of the Interior had been doing the administrative and clerical work. He did not wish to decrease the authority of these medical men in the least; the more authority they could get, the better it would be for the country.

rose to point out the delay that ensued with regard to the promulgation of regulations in the Cape Province, and said that it was not until the matter was taken in hand by the Medical Officer of Health for the Colony that they were able to move.

I rise to a point of order.

What is it?

The notice on the paper is the adjourned debate—

I thank my hon. friend for the interruption. If he makes more of them, he won’t facilitate the business of the country. Continuing, the speaker said that under the old system the municipalities were irritated by the great delays that took place in the promulgation of regulations. The Colonial Office was stacked with regulations which were waiting to be put through. These were handed over to the Medical Officer of Health, a hard-working though much-abused fellow, and eventually he managed to get many of these regulations cut. He looked at the page before him, and he saw the word centralisation written across it. That was about one of the worst things they could have. When they found medical officers, highly-qualified men, having to report to understrappers, they could not expect to get good work or an efficient administration. He urged upon his hon. friend to have some sort of Local Government Board, of which health would be a branch. Lot them decentralise as soon as possible. If Union was to be a success, they must have legislative union and administrative decentralisation.

said that he begged to differ with the statement that in the latter stages of the Cape administration the Health Department had led to smooth working with the municipalities. (Hear, hear.) He could say that during the last six years the delays had been lengthy. It was the system that had been at fault—the system that allowed health matters to be mixed up (with local government matters. The medical officer had not been doing health work; three-quarters of his time was devoted to Local Government work. This system had clogged the wheels of Municipal progress. He agreed with the hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) that what was wanted was a Local Government Board. The Municipality had been waiting years for a proper Municipal Act, and that was more likely to be taken in hand if they had a well-organised Local Government Department. No one seemed to be in control of health matters. They ought to have a health officer who would take the initiative in matters and bring it to the notice of the Minister when there was a serious state of things coming along. Instead of that being so, the health officer was merely there now to gave the Minister his advice when it was asked. He had no power of initiative, all that was left to a clerk with no special knowledge of health matters. He (Mr. Baxter) also thought, in regard to the item for the Union’s agent in German South-west Africa, that something might be done to get the German Government to divert part of the wages of the Cape coloured labourers working there under contract to the support of their wives and families. A great difficulty was experienced by the Charity Organisation, because of the fact that labourers went there from the Cape, and left their families unprovided for.

asked if the promised report had been received from the Union’s agent in German South-west Africa, relative to the recent disturbance in which a number of Cape boys were killed.

asked for information as to the item, “Secretary to the Public Service Advisory Committee.”

said the matter of a Local Government Board was really settled by the Constitution. The body to deal with this was the Executive Committee of the Provinces. He thought they would be able greatly to simplify the administrative machinery by having a medical officer, who would at once advise the Administrator in regard to health matters appertaining to local affairs. That was what he proposed to establish. A great deal of routine would be saved, and the process would be much more expeditious. In regard to the question of diverting part of the pay of Cape labourers in German South-west Africa to the support of their families, he thought that was a matter in which the Government could legitimately take action. In the Transvaal the mine labourers were not paid their full wages—a substantial portion was sent to the Transkei. He would take the matter up and see how far it was possible to get a solution of the matter. As to the item, “Secretary to the Public Service Advisory Committee,” he might explain that, in addition to the Public Service Commission, provided for in the Act of Union, they had had in the Transvaal an Advisory Committee, which dealt with 95 per cent. of Civil Service matters, which it was impossible for the Minister of the Interior personally to control. There were continually questions of transfer and of discipline, for instance. In the Transvaal they had this Public Service Board, and for the present they were continuing the machinery for the whole Union. With reference to the recent disturbances in German South-west Africa, he did not know whether a final report had been received from the Union’s agent there; if so, the Minister for Native Affairs would have it. But he might say he was certain the report would be satisfactory, because he knew the German authorities were starting machinery which would prevent any recurrence of such a thing, and which would enable a careful watch to be kept, even by the Union Government, over what was happening.

asked the Minister to explain the position in regard to the Archives, which came under his vote. The last Keeper of the Archives in the service of the Cape Government retired on pension some few months ago, and then a small Commission was appointed to superintend matters. Now, what he wanted to know was, whether a keeper had been appointed to supervise the Archives in Cape Town, as well as elsewhere, and whether that officer was stationed in Cape Town, or whether the Commission still continued its work of supervision.

replied that the position in Cape Town remained unaltered. The gentleman whose salary appeared in the Estimates was a Pretoria officer, who had been there for some years, and who was continuing his work there. There had been no time to go into the situation in Cape Town.

said that he hoped something would be done in Cape Town. They wanted means to complete the Archives in Cape Town, and now that they were forming a new nation it would be a practical step to get some of the records from Holland, and also from England. This was a very important matter. Reverting to the question of public health, Mr. Merriman said that his hon. friend (the Minister of the Interior) was certainly going against the Act of Union by placing public health under the Provincial Councils, the very thing that the members of the Convention discussed and decided should not be left to the Provinces —for the reason that the public health of the Union, supposing there was a visitation of cholera at Cape Town or any of the coast towns, or supposing sleeping sickness came down from the North, would be materially affected. They were going to have Provincial officers dealing with these questions of public health. Instead of having an efficient Civil Servant, who would be under the orders of the Minister of the Interior, they had appointed extremely ornamental gentlemen. Now, that was a great mistake. He did not wish to labour the point; but this was a very important matter. Public health was reserved for the Union Administration. The members of the Convention discussed whether it should fail under Provincial Council matters, and it was decided that it would be wiser not to leave it to these bodies, as it was a matter of vital importance. The natives who went up to the mines came hack to die in the Transkei or to get well, as the case might be; they also brought back loathsome diseases, and it was of the first importance that the Department of Public Health should be organised on an efficient basis, and Should be under the control of the Minister of the Interior, instead of being under the control of some understrapper in the Minister’s office. That was the Complaint at the present time. Another point which he wished to mention was in connection with the Public Service Board. That that Board should consist of public service officers was not exactly the sort of buffer this Parliament and the taxpayers wanted to see between the Government and the Civil Service. What they really wanted to see was—and he hoped they would arrive at it—a Public Service Commission, something on the same lines as the Commission in the Australian colonies.

said he thought the House should get a clear and lucid explanation from the Minister of the Interior as to his policy in regard to public health. At present they were as much in the dark as they were in regard to the Estimates of the Minister of the Interior. They did not gather from his remarks whether it was his intention to delegate the public health to the Provincial Councils. If that were his policy, then it would certainly raise an outcry in the country. He saw that the question of defence came under the control of the Minister of the Interior. Well, in dealing with public health, they were really dealing with a matter of defence—defence against disease—and he hoped the Ministry would gave the House a clear, lucid, and emphatic declaration of policy in regard to the matter, There had been an universal expression of opinion on the part of the medical profession in favour of the establishment of a Department of Public Health. They did not want a separate Portfolio, so long as they got a separate department.

called Dr. Macaulay to order, pointing out that he was not keeping to the vote.

replied that he was simply following and supporting his right hon. friend (Mr. Merriman). He wanted to join him in protesting against the question of the public health of the Union being delegated to the Provincial Councils.

said that his right hon. friend (Mr. Merriman) had really not taken what he said in the correct light, He should never be a party to delegating public health to the Provinces—(cheers)—because he thought it would be a fatal mistake to do so. There were large questions of public health affecting the Union, or a large portion of the Union, which ought to be concentrated in the Central Executive, and in order to carry out that policy they must have a Union Department of Public Health. But, in addition to the large questions, they had small pettifogging questions, such as municipal regulations for public health, from day to day, and if these small matters were dealt with by the central authority, then there would be clogging, such as had been referred to. He wanted to expedite the machinery as much as possible.

said he thought the Minister for the Interior should appoint a Principal Medical Officer of Health for the Union, who should be the medical adviser of the Minister, and who should have direct access to the Minister. What the committee would like to know was: when the Minister would appoint such officer, if it were his intention to make such appointment? Then he saw an item, “Secretary, Public Service Advisory Committee.” His hon. friend (General Smuts) seemed to be proposing a sort of stop-gap committee, pending the appointment of the Public Service Commission, described in section 142 of the Act of Union. He should like to know when it was the intention of the Government to inform the House that they had appointed the Public Service Commission.

complained that insufficient information was given in the Estimates as to the four under-secretaries who were mentioned there. One of the officers, he believed, was the present Under-Secretary of the Province of the Cape of Good Hope. That officer had rendered excellent service, he had gone through severe times like other Civil Servants in the Cape, and he (Mr. Becker) thought that a salary of more than £800 should have been allocated to him. The hon. member also referred to the clerical assistants, who were given a salary of £180 a year, at which figure they had stood for some years past. These men, he thought, had a grievance, and were entitled to more consideration. He hoped when the next Estimates came before the House some provision would be made to bring their salaries more or less on a par with the salaries paid in other Provinces. He very much regretted that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman), at the time he handed the handsome surplus over to the Union, did not as the other colonies did increase the salaries of the officers and place them on a level—(Cries of “Oh” and “Order.”)

said he hoped the Prime Minister would gave them a little more information than he had done in regard to the Government’s policy as to the Health Department. The views expressed by his hop friend (Dr. Smartt) did not go as far as some of them would like to see. In regard to the Union, apparently the only provision the Minister for the Interior was making for public health was that he was going to appoint one medical officer of health to advise him in regard to health matters. That seemed to him. (Mr. Duncan) an entirely inadequate provision as regarded the Union. Government should consider having a Department of Health under a medical officer of health, who should be responsible to the Minister direct, and not merely to a member of the Minister’s staff.

moved the reduction of the salary of one of the Under-Secretaries of the Interior, given at £1,000, by £5. He pointed out that the salaries of the Under-Secretaries varied from £800 to £1,000. Government should state whether it was going to grade salaries throughout the Union according to the cost of living. Living, it should be remembered, was as expensive at Bloemfontein as at Pretoria, although the salaries at the latter were on a higher scale.

called attention to the fact that the local allowance hitherto given to Civil Servants at Kimberley had been discontinued although the cost of living was very much higher upcountry than it was at the coast. The grievance was that men recently transferred were not given the allowance, although it was still drawn by men who had been up-country prior to the recent decision. He was informed that in one case a Civil Servant, as the result of being moved up-country, had had his living expenses so increased as practically to reduce the purchasing power of his salary by 50 per cent.

said he had no cognisance of the matter referred to by the hon. member for Kimberley; presumably it occurred before the date of Union. At the National Convention, it was arranged that a Public Service Commission should be appointed, and that Commission was now dealing with the matter referred to by the hon. member for Bloemfontein (Mr. Botha). It should not be left to Ministers to transfer men from one department to another, and a committee had been appointed to see to Civil Servant transfers. Not a single salary had so far been touched by the Ministry, apart from the restoration of increments. He thought the hon. member for Fordsburg (Mr. Duncan) was entirely wrong, and he (General Smuts) wanted a health officer who would be responsible to the Minister.

When are you going to appoint him? (Laughter.)

said that in Natal the Secretary of the Interior had nothing to do with the Medical Officer of Health.

said that the Minister had the material at his command for the making of a good system.

said he would like to correct one or two statements that had been made regarding his remarks. With reference to salaries, what he did say was that there were a great many people with high salaries in these Estimates, and that this was neither good for the country not the Civil Servants themselves. On the general question he would say that he would be the last person to say that Civil Servants were overpaid, and when he said this he meant the ordinary rank and file. Later on, when they got to particular votes, he would point out some instances where Civil Servants were shamefully underpaid. No man owed a greater debt to the Civil Service than he did, and he did not think any man had got better work or more loyal work from Civil Servants than he bad. He had been asked why he had not increased their salaries just before he handed over to the Union Government. What sort of honesty would that have been to have increased salaries in order that other people might pay?

asked if it was the intention of the Government to introduce a Public Health Bill before the end of the present session.

was understood to reply that that would be too big a task.

said he welcomed the statement made by the Minister that there was to be a Medical Officer for the whole of the Union; but he did not think that the Minister appreciated the other point he had desired to make, that these medical officers were merely advisers to the Minister, and had no initiative power. He withdrew his motion.

The other amendment was also withdrawn.

asked the Government for a statement of policy with regard to Asiatic immigration. He referred to the position in the Transvaal, though, he said, he did not wish to deal with the matter from the Transvaal, but a broader point of view. He went on to quote from a speech made in the Viceroy’s Council to the effect that nothing had provoked more bitter feeling in India than the continued ill-treatment of Indians in South Africa. He drew attention to this matter, because it was of extreme importance from the Imperial point of view. The Indians recognised the right of self-protection, and recognised that, the white population of the other Dominions had the right to stop undesirable immigration. Three reasonable things were asked. The first was that Indians domiciled in South Africa at the present moment should be treated fairly and justly, They asked, in the second place, that educated Indians such as teachers and ministers, should be admitted to the country to a limited extent—up to a certain number to be fixed; and, thirdly, they asked that Indians of standing, such as merchants, traders, and Indians travelling for pleasure, coming here temporarily, should be allowed to come here so long as they had a passport or certificate issued by the Imperial Indian Government. He thought those demands were extremely moderate. His (Mr. Jagger’s) object was to ascertain what the position of affairs was in regard to this matter, and what the intention of the Government was. He moved to reduce the item “Chief Immigration Officers” by £5.

said he desired to raise certain questions in regard to the administration of the Immigration Act generally. In reference to the question raised by the last speaker, while it was not asked that unrestricted immigration of Indians should be allowed, it was proper to ask, at any rate, that the Indians who were in the country should be treated in a just manner. Cases had come before the Courts in which men had been excluded from the country, who had lived here for 30 years, while instances had occurred of the deportation of men who were actually born in the country. Could they wonder that there should be so much unrest and dissatisfaction? They should deal with Indians in the same way that other colonies did, and they should remember that Indians were human beings, and were entitled to have their national susceptibilities regarded. They had read in the papers that recently a satisfactory settlement was arrived at between the Government and the Indian authorities. He hoped the Minister would take that opportunity of informing the House whether that was correct. Then, as to the administration of the Immigration Act generally, he did not think that, as it was being carried on at present, it was a credit to the country. Under the existing Immigration Acts enormous powers were given to the Ministers, and Parliament had expected the Ministers to exercise those powers, and not leave them to be exercised by minor officials. When one looked at the way in which the Immigration Laws were administered, one was forced to the conclusion that immigrants were not wanted in this country. The power given in theory to the Ministers, in practice to the immigration officers, was, he contended, far too great. He would suggest to the Minister the desirability of considering whether there should not be an Immigration Board here, as in England, to which a man might appeal from a decision of an immigration officer. If an alien, say a German, wished to come to this country, the immigration officer had power to refuse to allow him to land, no matter how desirable a colonist he might be. Within his own knowledge, three or four Belgians came to this country with between £600 and £700, but were returned because they could not write to the satisfaction of the Immigration Officer. That was a loss to the country, and that was what was happening every day. There was no appeal. If a man was an alien the Government had simply to raise that point, and he was not allowed to land. He had no appeal to the Courts. That was a matter which the Immigration Board he had suggested could very well deal with. To show the autocratic administration of the Act, he mentioned the fact that the very reasonable regulation under which immigrants were informed that they could apply to the Supreme Court for an order authorising their landing, and were afforded reasonable facilities to make application to the Courts, was repealed. Surely that, he said, was introducing autocracy with a vengeance in South Africa.

rose to a point of order. He pointed out that there was not a single Minister of the Crown in the House, and his hon. friend (Mr. Alexander) was representing the interests of his constituents upon a very important matter. If Ministers did not consider it worth while to remain in the House when such an important matter was being discussed, he would have no alternative but to report progress.

said that he was glad the Minister of the Interior had come back, because the matter was very important. Many desirable immigrants were being prevented from coming to this country. He further pointed out that the administration changed each time the Courts gave a decision. When immigrants came here and said they were desirable persons, and the Government said they were not, they were, given temporary permits. But these permits had been done away with, and the people were detained down at the Docks under conditions which were a scandal. One of the first things that he hoped the Minister would do would be to see that there was something in the nature of a reception house provided. Difficulties often arose because the Minister would not allow friends of these people to go and see them in the depot. People of his own persuasion had not been allowed to go and supply their friends with kosher food. Injustice was also done in regard to the examination. Why should not the Minister have an examination in regard to handwriting in London through the Agent-General’s office, in conjunction with the shipping office? If that were done a good deal of hardship and expense would be avoided. Mr. Alexander mentioned several cases with the object, as he explained, of showing the enormous powers which the Minister had taken to himself in the administration of the Act. He expressed the opinion that since the Minister of the Interior had taken charge, the administration of the Immigration Act had been much harsher than it was before. Mr. Alexander also complained that the names of the examiners of handwriting were kept secret. The matter was exercising very considerable attention, not only in the Cape Province, for he had a letter on the subject from Zionists at Johannesburg. The insistence on the possession of a passport by immigrants from Russia practically debarred people from that country entering South Africa, as few of them could afford to pay the high price demanded for this document.

said he had no doubt that the hon. member (Mr. Alexander) had satisfied himself, but he (Dr. Haggar) did not think the hon. member would satisfy anyone else, who had looked at the question from all sides. The mere fact that abuses took place proved nothing. He was not going to say that the Minister was not a hard mam; but if he were perfect he would be out of place in that House. (Laughter.) He (Dr. Haggar) had had a good deal of experience of these foreign people at Durban, and in 95 cases out of 100 the instances in which permission to land was refused were quite justified. The people who came here from Russia were not by any means the idiots that they had been led to believe. If it were so difficult for aliens to land in Cape Town, he was of opinion that the Cape Town people were more harsh than he was inclined to think them to be. It was hardly fair to ask the Minister to state his policy on this matter just now, particularly if that policy were in a state of incubation. We allowed Asiatics to come here and own property. Were they allowed to do that in Australia? In Australia there was a poll tax of £100 on Asiatics. (Hear, hear.) The restrictions in Australia were much more severe than they were here. With regard to the harsh treatment of these people, he contended that the Government had to obey the laws of the country. He asked the hon. member to talk to some of the commercial travellers about it, and they would say that these traders were the curse of the country. These traders had ruined the trade in Natal, and they were ruining the trade in the Cape. He went on to refer to legislation in Natal, and said that trading had been restricted, and thus the white man had benefited. He went on to deal with a commission which investigated the treatment of Indians in Zululand, and said that no evidence was brought forward to substantiate the charges that were preferred. There were no people so capable of gross exaggeration. The immigration officers had a hard task, and he marvelled that they were able to perform their duty so well. They were most cunning, and betrayed the quintessence of deceit; they were born in it and bred upon it. So far as the domicile certificates were concerned, he alleged that forged certificates were sent out of the country for these people. If the Minister acted with Oriental despotism, these people would find some means of eluding him. Let them think of what these Indians had to endure in India, and then they would realise that this country was as Heaven to them.

said that though in the heat of the debate there might have been same slight exaggeration in certain directions, he was satisfied that there was a great deal of sad truth in the statements made by the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger). The other hon. gentleman—the hon. member who had just concluded—had talked a lot of stuff beside the mark, and had advanced no reason why he should be accepted as an authority. The flippancy with which the hon. member for Roodepoort (Dr. Haggar) had spoken put him entirely out of court, and robbed his remarks of any value which they might have had. And one of the most striking things in his speech was the way in which he toadied to the Minister. Proceeding, Mr. Quinn said he considered the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Alexander) had made out a case for consideration. Every lover of liberty and justice in that House ought to make it his business to see that the law was carried out impartially, and that was what was pleaded for by the hon. member for Cape Town. They would be wronging the individuals concerned and the country itself if they administered the law with prejudice. Cruelty and injustice must be resisted. There were undoubtedly cases of difficulty which the immigration officers had to deal with, but, on the whole, he considered that a strong case for inquiry had been made out.

said that people who had been allowed to settle in the country should not have the right to reside here taken away from them. There was indisputable evidence that what had occurred in South Africa of recent years had set the people of India afire. A less cruel policy must be carried out than had been carried out in the Transvaal during the last year or two. In many respects, the Government, in trying to keep out undesirable persons, were going too far, and were keeping out of the country men who would become the very backbone of the country. He hoped that the Union Government would adopt a wider policy than the one adopted in the Transvaal.

said that the hon. member for Cape Town had brought to the notice of the House some of the severe measures which had been adopted by those who were administering the Immigration Act of the Cape, and it was the first time during his experience that he had ever heard an hon. member accuse another of being interested simply because he brought to the notice of the House injustices which some people suffered. The Immigration Act itself was not so severe, but he knew from experience that its administration had been most unfair. Of course, one did not like to reflect upon the conduct of Civil Servants who administered the Act, because they had not an opportunity of defending themselves, but what he wished to say was that, in the administration of this Act, they wanted a worldly man, a man with some warm blood in his veins, a man who had no whims and fancies. He knew of several cases where men had narrowly escaped being refused to enter the country on account of the fastidiousness of the Immigration Officer. He thought they must be careful not to refuse respectable people to enter the country, and he hoped the Minister of the Interior —he was quite sure that he was anxious to mete out justice to all classes—would select some Civil Servant to administer the Act who had some worldly knowledge, and had some warm blood running through his veins.

said he wished to correct the hon. member fox Tembuland (Mr. Schreiner), who said that those people to whom he (the speaker) had referred came from a part of the Empire. Now, the classes referred to by him in the majority of instances, so far as Natal was concerned, did not belong to any part of the British Empire. Many of them were the descendants of the old slave traders of the East Coast.

said he would like the opportunity of saving just a few words in reference to what had fallen from hon. members opposite. He did not wish to reply in detail to what had been said. It was rather late, and there would be a very ample opportunity of discussing this question of immigration later. It was the intention of the Government to bring before the House an immigration law for South Africa in the course of the session, and that Bill would offer a very suitable opportunity for reviewing entirely the immigration administration, and the policy which the Union should follow in the future. Therefore, he did not wish to go into details now. But he might say that he had listened with considerable pain to the many remarks made that night, and people who did not know the facts would come to the conclusion that there had been maladministration since May 31. Well, that was not so. He might say to his hon. friend from Beaconsfield (Colonel Harris) that he took over the Immigration Law of the Cape, as passed some years ago. He took over the administrative machinery and the officials carrying out the law under the Cape Government. In the few cases in which he had interfered in the administration of the law. It was done with the object of tempering it. He denied that he had introduced new machinery or administered the Jaw harshly. He should like to throw the doors of this country open to every able-bodied white man who did not suffer from any disease, whether he knew English, or Yiddish or Greek, or any other language or not. There existed at present an education test, and he could quite understand that the immigration, officers at the ports, who were administering these laws perfectly impartially to the best of their judgment, and very fairly on the whole, he thought, had to carry out certain laws, and to carry out this education test. Oh many occasions as regarded this matter he had gone the length of breaking the law. He wished to refer to the point raised by the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, in regard to the Indian question in South Africa. He hoped that that question was near a solution, and he did not want to enter into particulars at present, but he wished to say that the hon. member was not just or fair in some of the criticism he had passed in regard to this matter. He (General Smuts) had had in the Transvaal to deal with one of the most difficult problems that could confront any administrator. They had a policy, and he hoped it would continue to be the policy of South Africa, not to let Asiatics into this country. (Hear, hear.) That was the deliberate wish and will of the people of this country. (Hear, hear.) He perfectly agreed that those who were domiciled in this country should be treated fairly. That class had not been his problem. But hon. members knew that there had been a policy in South Africa for some years now—a deliberate policy—of creating obstruction and creating difficulties by introducing Asiatics who were not entitled to come into the country, and the harsh acts complained of were in reference to those people. They saw a boatload of people come from Bombay entirely disentitled on every ground to be in the Transvaal, who were sent round the Cape coast in one direction and another with the intention of coming into the Transvaal. These people were brought in order to make his administration appear harsh. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that when he was confronted with a case like that he should stand like a rook. (Hear, hear.) It might be said, “Don’t make martyrs of these people,” but he had to carry out the law. It was not his intention to be harsh. It was his intention as administrator, and the intention of every sane person in this country, to do fairly and justly to every section of the community. (Hear, hear.) He hoped when these troubles had passed over, as he thought there was a chance of their passing over, they would not be confronted with another similar problem in South Africa. (Hear, hear.) There was a fair chance of the matter being settled now, and before the House met again next year he hoped that some equitable settlement would have been arrived at.

withdrew his amendment.

The item was agreed to.

drew attention to an item of £7,000, grants in aid, and said that no details were given. He urged that the Kimberley Museum was entitled to some consideration at the hands of the Government. Specimens ought, he urged, to be allowed to be sent through the post free. Then the grant to the Kimberley Museum had been cut down from £500 to £260 a year.

mentioned that the Bloemfontein Municipal Council contributed £500 a year to the local Museum.

stated that the sums which appeared on the Estimates for museums were those which hitherto had been paid by the Colonial Governments, with the exception that where reductions had been made of recent years they had been restored. (Cheers.)

asked where the two new observation stations were for which provision was made on the Estimates.

replied that one was at Johannesburg and another at Durban, the latter being for the purpose of recording the rise and fall of the tides.

pointed out that there was a disparity in this matter. For instance, in the Cape the candidates paid their own expenses and a portion of the Returning Officer’s expenses, while in Natal candidates paid no expenses whatever.

hoped that in this case there would be no levelling up, for in this instance they wanted to go on Natal lines. (Laughter.)

thought there should be more public libraries.

called attention to a piece of arbitrary conduct either on the part of the Minister of the Interior or his officer. Soon after the establishment of Union an intimation was received by the officials of the South African Public Library, Cape Town, requiring them to send to Pretoria a list of applicants for posts in the Library. That was entirely contrary to the law, the South African Library being administered under an Act of its own. The old Cape Government would no more have dreamed of interfering in such a matter than it would have of flying. When the Library trustees wrote to say that the Minister could not interfere, they received a threat about their grant.

pleaded for support for the Seymour Memorial Library in Johannesburg.

supported what the hon. member for Troyeville had said with regard to Parliamentary expenses.

asked if the vote for the Durban Art Gallery and the Botanical Gardens was the same.

dealt with the reduction of the grant to the Kimberley Library, and hoped that the original grant would be restored.

In reply to the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. J. W. JAGGER),

said he could only express his regret for a mistake that had since been rectified.

asked the Minister to explain the policy of the Government with regard to tuberculosis Now that Union had come about there was no excuse for shelving the matter. He wanted to know whether it was the intention of the Government to take some active steps to deal with this great disease.

moved to adjourn the debate on account of the lateness of the hour. (Ministerial cries of “No, no.’’)

hoped that the Minister would move the adjournment.

said that there had been absolutely no obstruction, and every question had been put in a bona fide manner.

said he had no objection to progress being reported.

Progress was reported, and leave granted to sit again on the following day.