from J. S. Galloway, Civil Servant.

from J. N. Hansen, Senior Draftsman, P.W.D., Cape Town.

read a letter which he had received from a Dutch farmer in the Zoutpansberg district, dealing with the value of dipping, and the necessity for compulsory dipping.

moved in line 3 after “division” the words “or part of a division” be inserted; also in line 7 after “such division” the words “or part of a division” be inserted.

moved a new sub-section (b) to the fallowing effect: Section 1 of the Cattle Cleansing Act 31 of 1908 be read and construed as if the words “or part of a division” were inserted after the word “division,” where it first occurs in the section.

moved that the words “as amended by Act 43 of 1909” be inserted after “1908.”

The amendments were all agreed to.

said he would like to ask the hon. member in charge of the Bill whether it would really carry them very much further. It made a law against a person allowing cattle belonging to him, and which were unclean, to wander about in public places.

pointed out that clause 2 was being discussed, and not clause 1.

Very good, Mr. Chairman.

On clause 3,

said he would have to go over the ground again. The Act would not allow cattle to go along a public road, but it did not compel a man to clean his cattle on his own farm. In the Transkei they compelled the natives to dip and to pay for their dip, and they loyally carried out those provisions. Pondoland, he believed, was free from East Coast fever at the present time, and the natives were dipping and putting up tanks. A special tax was levied to pay for the tanks. Were they prepared to do the same thing in their own colony with Europeans, and that was, insist that a man should have his sheep free from scab as far as possible, and that he should keep his cattle clean from ticks? Unless they did that now they would have that miserable disease, East Coast fever, tramping on, and they would have the old rinderpest conditions all over again. (Applause.) If they were really in earnest in desiring to keep that disease out by means of cleansing they would have to put the largest powers possible into the hands of the Government. (Applause.)

said that if he thought it was possible to get an Act passed, such as the right hon. gentleman for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) suggested, he would be very glad; but he did not think he was quite sure of his subject when he talked of placing ticks on the same level as scab. It was thoroughly impractical, and, from what he had seen, the eradication of ticks was going to take some time. As to a compulsory measure, they were very anxious to try that some time ago. He wanted to try and get something through this House that could be done. The object of the Bill was, as far as possible, to provide that if they found tick-infested cattle on a man’s farm, to convict him.

said the point he had emphasised was that they should do something to keep the thing down. It was creeping on, and nothing was being done. The only practical thing to do was to gave the strongest powers to the Government. A paltry Act like this was useless to cope with the evil.

said that there were cries for compulsory cleaning now, but why had there not been these when the Cape Act had been passed? Because they had felt that it was undesirable that there should be general compulsion. The day would come, and he hoped it would come soon, when they would all see that their greatest foe was the tick. If they passed a general Act, he thought that it would prove a failure, but as the measure before the committee proposed a certain amount of assistance, he would support it. He hoped that the day would come when they would have a general law dealing with ticks, but they could not deal with that just now. Hence the present temporary measure, which would act as a palliative. Hon. members opposite knew perfectly well that when they themselves were in power they could not carry a compulsory general law, or, at any rate, they would have been unable to enforce it.

said that the Prime Minister had not quite caught his meaning. He (Mr. Merriman) did not say they should make this a general Act at once. That would be an extremely difficult thing to do; it would raise the greatest opposition throughout the country. But what he did say was that they should gave the Government, under this Act, power to proclaim that in certain districts, as far as possible, the cattle should be cleaned, just as the Cape Government took it upon itself to order that the natives in Pondoland should dip their cattle. Ninety per cent. of the people would be willing to dip, and would dip, but they might have a few recalcitrant men, and all he wanted to do was to gave the Government power in this Act to proclaim that certain districts should be cleaned. It was asked why the Cape Government did not do it. Well, the Cape Government did not do it because then the disease was hundreds of miles away, and they hoped to keep it out; and they would have kept it out had it not been for malign influence. He had not the slightest doubt that the time would come when everybody would want to shut the stable door. Let them make sure the horse was not gone. (Hear, hear.)

said he entirely agreed with the last speaker. They had to deal with a most dangerous disease—a disease that was going to spread ruin broadcast unless something were done to check it. It was the duty of the House to try to make a Bill of this sort as stringent as possible. He was sure that there were certain districts in the Union in which, in the general interests of the well-being of the farmers, the Prime Minister, if he could do as he desired, would enforce compulsory dipping. They should compel to dip for this disease just as they compelled them to dip for scab. The country was ripe for legislation of the kind suggested by the last speaker. He hoped the Bill would be made much more stringent. One objection to the Bill was that it only applied to the Province of the Cane.

said that it was only as a practical measure that that Bill was brought in. They could not fix it in the same way as scab, which had taken 25 years of dipping, and they had not done with it yet. He would like to point out that the present Bill was not one for dealing with East Coast Fever, but with the cleansing of cattle. That Bill must not be confused with the Bill which the Government had introduced. The present Bill would have been before the House if there had not been any East Coast fever. They could not have compulsory dipping in any district of the Province at present, because they did not have the dip—if the Government provided the dip they could make dipping compulsory—and he did not think the Government was prepared to do that. If they were going to wait until every owner had his dipping tank, cattle disease would spread throughout the country.

said that he admitted what the previous speaker had just said. Why was it a measure dealing with ticks, however? Because tick fever was in the country, and East Coast fever had come. It had only been brought forward because ticks carried redwater, and the Government would not do anything; that was why. The hon. member (Mr. Blaine) had brought forward his measure because the Government was waiting to hear what the views of their constituents were. If the hon. member had got the proper assistance from the Government, it would not have been necessary to bring forward that measure. There was a Government measure already on the table, but it was full of “mays,” “perhapses,” and all sorts of loopholes. When he had brought forward certain matters the other day, the Prime Minister had reproved him, and later also, the Minister of Lands had done the same thing. He had only been doing his duty in bringing the matter forward as soon as he could. The hon. member went on to deal with the matter he had alluded to on the previous Monday.

called the hon. member to order. There were Ministerialist cheers.

If hon. members say “Hear, hear,” for the purpose of stopping discussion, I would like to say that I am bringing this forward because it is something which concerns the whole of South Africa, and a danger which is threatening the whole country. The whole community is concerned, and all the cattle of South Africa are going to be wiped off the face of the earth if this matter is not taken seriously in hand. What were they sent here for? To go back and consult the people who sent them there? If so, they were not fit to represent their constituents. Hon. members were sent there to judge of, and act on, the evidence, and there was no way of conducting the affairs of the country unless hon. members were prepared to take responsibility of action. If they did not they might as well have government by the populace, and not by Parliament at all. Instead of taking holidays, which appeared to be so particularly attractive, he would suggest that hon. members be sent round to Natal to see the ravages which the disease had wrought there, and then they could come back and legislate. (Hear, hear.)

said he had been administering the affairs of the country and trying to fight East Coast fever for about 18 months, and with some success so far as the native districts were concerned. He did not wish to keep up the discussion but had merely intervened because he saw the gravity of the position. (Cheers.) Later on he would move that powers be given to make regulations to provide for the compulsory cleansing of cattle in any district in the danger zone. Cleansing and dipping were not synonymous. He would now quote from a newspaper—to he presumed it was true— (laughter)—the “Frontier Guardian,” which stated that in one district in the Transker the natives were very effectively cleansing their cattle by means of a spraying machine. A great deal of good could be done by means of spraying.

said that, as he understood it, the hon. member for Border (Mr. Blaine) had brought forward what was really an amendment of an Act; which was in existence in the Cape Province. It was not brought forward against East Coast fever, but against ticks. A great debate had arisen now about East Coast fever in Natal and other parts of the country, but he thought it was better that that discussion should be kept over until the Government Bill, which would deal with cattle diseases in general—and which was now on the table—was under discussion. The hon. member for Pretoria East (Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick) seemed to be special representative of cattle-farmers and an authority on East Coast fever, but that did not entitle the hon. member to trump up charges against the Government for neglecting to fight East Coast fever. He did not disagree with the hon. member in his efforts to combat East Coast fever, but where he differed from the hon. member was that he had a habit of making insinuations—without going further. He had referred to certain letters the other day; well, let him place those letters on the table of the House, when he (General Botha) would order an investigation to be made. (Cheers.) He was going to support the proposal of the hon. member (Mr. Blaine), as it was a beginning, and if it were in force in certain of the border districts of the Cape Province, they could see how it worked; and it was possible that the good influence of the Act would be extended to other districts. His aim was to secure the co-operation of the people, because if they made ever so many regulations and did not get the co-operation of the people, they could not succeed. If they did what the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) had advocated, he was afraid that they would lose the co-operation of the people, and only raise many difficulties. Let them, he concluded, help the people of the Cape Province by agreeing to the hon. member’s proposal The vital importance of co-operation had been demonstrated in Natal, where they had had excellent results. In the Transkei certain regulations were being enforced and the Government were having cattle dipped and inoculated. So far in oculation had proved very effective.

said he was very glad to hear the views expressed by the hon. member for Victoria West. The Prime Minister had said that it was necessary for hon. members to go home and consult their constituents; but he (the speaker) would suggest to hon. members, who had any doubt about the utility of dipping, that they pay a visit to Natal during the recess, instead of going to their homes. He felt perfectly convinced that those who visited Natal would come back absolutely satisfied that the only remedy, or, at any rate, the only means of checking East Coast fever was by dipping. He could assure the committee that the only farmers in Natal who had cattle to-day were those who had been consistently dipping. He regretted with others that the Bill did not go farther. As a matter of fact, he did not think it was of very much use as it was, as it only applied to cattle on main roads. He hoped that before the present session ended the Prime Minister would bring in more drastic legislation. He also hoped that those members who were not in favour of compulsory dipping would be converted.

said that he rose for the purpose of saying a word upon what appeared to be the practical question, and that was the amendment of the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman). He could not see why the Prime Minister did not at once say that he would accept that amendment. It was something practical towards strengthening the Bill; it gave power to the Government to insist upon dipping where dipping might prevent an extension of the disease. The Prime Minister had said that the Government could obtain power by Proclamation in the Native Territories; but, unfortunately, some of them believed that the disease was not going to be limited to the Native Territories, and the amendment of his right hon. friend (Mr. Merriman) would gave the Government power in the event of it extending beyond the Native Territories in the white part of the Cape Province. Surely the Government would not refuse to have the power given to them by the House to introduce drastic methods with the object of preventing the spread of the disease throughout the Union.

pointed out that the Bill only had reference to the Province of the Cape of Good Hope. Anxious as he was to see the cattle of the Province preserved, he was equally anxious to see the cattle preserved in other parts, and if the amendment were accepted it would be said that they were dealing very partially and very inadequately with this very important matter. The proper time to deal with the amendment was when the Government Bill, which dealt with the whole Union, came before the House. The Government would then be able to state exactly what their policy was.

When will that come?

It is on the paper.

But when will it come before the House?

If hon. members would make shorter speeches, and make relevant speeches, it would come very soon. (Ministerial cheers.) Proceeding, he said that he had not made 53 orations or perorations in one afternoon. Only that morning the question of dipping was discussed in the Cabinet as to the amount Parliament should be asked to vote, in order to make a beginning with the principle, and to a large extent, of applying dipping in the Union as being the surest, and, he believed, the only remedy to deal with this very serious disease which now threatened the whole of the country. He appealed to the hon. member to wait until the Government Bill was introduced. Then the Government would announce the amount they would require.

pointed out that when the Bill was read a second time it was stated that its object was simply to strengthen the Acts which were in operation. In view of the discussion, and in view of the amendments, he thought the House would not arrive at anything conclusive. The time to discuss the whole matter was when the Government introduced its Bill. To pass a measure which only required a man to cleanse his cattle was not going far enough.

said that the real thing was administration, and the administration of the law rested on the shoulders of the Government. It was for the Government to decide if the danger was near or far away. They had only got to order compulsory cleansing, which was a different thing to dipping, to put things right.

asked the House to help him to get this Bill through.

said they wanted to convert the Government to the necessity of doing something. It would be too late to delay the question and discuss it later on. There was no man more concerned or more experienced than the Prime Minister in this matter, but for his part he (the speaker) did not keep his ear to the ground and listen to the rumble from the back veld. He (the speaker) expressed his own opinions and views whether they were endorsed by people or not. This talk about consultations with constituents was beside the mark; it would mean that the position would be undermined. He knew that the Prime Minister knew more about the question than anybody, and he (the speaker) wanted him to exercise the power he held. Was it not curious that they should wait until people lost their cattle by blue louse and their sheep by scab before they would take their courage in their hands and use it. Surely the right thing to do was to take action before the cattle were lost. They should go on with the Bill instead of delaying the matter. They wanted the Government to have the power, and they wanted it to know that it had the backing of the House behind it when anything was done. He (the speaker) said it had been insinuated that it would be more manly for him to have put the letter on the table. He had handed the letter to the Minister of Education to be handed to the Prime Minister, and that letter was now in his possession.

said that the letter had been handed privately to the Government, and the wish expressed that no steps would be taken against this gentleman. If the hon. member had wanted the letter investigated, irrespective of consequences, as to whether the man had told the truth or not, the letter ought to have been laid on the table.

hoped that hon. members would cease discussing this matter.

said that the hon. member in charge of the Bill had rightly exempted cattle on private land. The Bill applied to cattle on commonages, because there, as well as on outspans, it soon became tick-infested. It was impossible to dip on the public roads.

said that this private Bill had nothing to do with East Coast fever. The hon. member for Pretoria East had said there was not time to go and consult constituents, because East Coast fever would turn up meanwhile, and all the cattle would be dead before hon. members got back. Remarks of that nature were quite beside the point when a Bill such as the present one was being discussed. Had hon. members opposite had been a little less prolix, the Cattle Disease Bill would have been under discussion by that time.

said he did not see how the Act could be worked without putting people to a great deal of inconvenience. There was nothing in the Bill to protect the commonage people.

observed that this was the real operative clause of the Bill. Similar provision was made in Act 43 of 1908, only people could shield themselves behind certificates. This, he pointed out, was not a Dipping, but a Cleansing, Act.

said that he would have liked the hon. member for Border to introduce a more comprehensive Bill. Horses, mules, donkeys, sheep, dogs and pigs should have been included. He (the speaker) did not mind the approaching holidays, for he had come to Parliament to do the work of Parliament.

said that it was rather peculiar that, as soon as an agricultural subject was introduced, hon. members opposite felt called upon to jump up and accuse the Government of all manner of remissness in connection with cattle disease. Why did not the hon. member for Pretoria East do a little more solid work in this direction when he had the ear of the then Transvaal Government? As a matter of fact he (the speaker) did not see any necessity for the Bill. He moved to report progress.

Mr. Chairman, “support progress” the hon. gentleman said. We are going to vote for that. (Laughter.)

The motion to report progress was negatived, and the clause was agreed to.

On clause 4,

said he noticed that two parties were made responsible. He thought only one should be responsible, and would move that the owner of the cattle only be held responsible, instead of the drover. The clause said, “drover and owner.”

asked Mr. Rademeyer to withdraw his motion, because he (Mr. Blaine) had simply taken the wording of the old Act, with which the hon. member agreed. He would ask him to be reasonable, and let the Bill go through. It was only a little Bill.

I don’t wish to obstruct the passage of the Bill at all, but wish to improve it. I shall move my amendment.

hoped that the amendment would be withdrawn, as it really made the Bill weaker.

supported the clause as printed, in view of the fact that a man’s oxen might become infected while he had hired them out.

said he did not quite follow the hon. member, but thought he might leave that Bill as it stood. Supposing a person stole fifty head of cattle from him, and on the road they became tick-infested. They were put up for auction, and the drover arrested. Would he, as the owner, like to be prosecuted? No; it was the man in charge who should be prosecuted.

The amendment was withdrawn, and the clause agreed to.

On clause 5,

moved a new clause 5 as follows: “Sections 3 and 4 of this Act, notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained therein, shall not apply to the cattle of any person within the boundaries of his property, unless they are travelling to a place beyond the boundaries of such property. This amendment, he said, was taken from the Act of 1908.

hoped the amendment would not be pressed. It would make the Bill so weak that it would be practically useless. The amendment meant that if a public road happened to run through a man’s property, he could take tick-infected cattle.

also hoped the amendment would not be pressed; it would weaken the Bill considerably.

said the clause was taken from the Act of 1908. Unless the hon. member accepted this, and brought the Bill into line with the Act of 1908, he prophesied they would not get many districts to ask for this Act. He would not, however, press for a division on the amendment.

The proposed new clause was put, and the CHAIRMAN declared it negatived.

called for a division, but afterwards withdrew.

The proposed new clause was therefore negatived.

On clause 6,

proposed a new clause 6 as follows: “(a) It shall be lawful for the Council of any division in which this Act has been duly proclaimed to be in force to appoint out of the funds at its disposal one or more inspectors for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of sections 4 and 5 of this Act, and upon such appointment every such inspector shall be vested with all the powers and subject to all the duties conferred and imposed (as the case may be) by the said sections upon field-cornets, Justices of the Peace, sheep inspectors, and police officers. (b) A sum of one-half of any amount which the Council concerned may expend as salary for an inspector or inspectors appointed under the provisions of this Act shall be paid to such Council from and out of the public revenue of the Union, in accordance with regulations to be published in the ‘Gazette,’ provided, however, that in no case the amount so contributed shall exceed £50 per annum.”

said he could not allow the new clause to be moved, as it involved expenditure, and no leave had been given.

said the Government agreed to the clause, but he had not the formal leave yet, but the authority would be handed in later.

said he would move the new clause at the third reading.

On clause 9,

moved the following amendment: In line 44, after “Good Hope” to insert “as amended by Act No. 43 of 1909 of the said Province ”; in line 47, after “1908” to insert “as amended,” and at the end of the clause to add the following: “And upon this Act being so proclaimed the provisions of the said Act as amended shall cease to be in force in any such division.”

moved to insert after “division,” in line 46, the words “or part of division,” and at the end of the amendment just proposed to add the following proviso: “Provided, further, that in any division or part of a division in which this Act has been proclaimed in force the provisions of section 3 of the Cattle Cleansing Act, No. 43 of 1909, shall have force and effect. The effect of this amendment, he said, would be that Divisional Councils would have the option of applying the Act of 1908, as amended by the Act of 1909, or of applying the law, as it stood under this Bill.

referring to one of the amendments of the Minister of Education, said he would accept it, but he would have preferred that the Minister had been considerate enough to put all his amendments on the paper so that he (Mr. Blaine) could have seen them.

That is rather unkind of the hon. member, whom I have been trying to assist as much as possible. The spirit in which he is moving now is not the right one.

Not the Convention spirit.

The amendments were agreed to.

said that he regretted he could not attend before, because if he had been present at an earlier stage he would have advised the hon. member for Border to have the Bill referred to a Select Committee in order to obtain agreement between the Dutch text and the English text. The Dutch version was nothing short of scandalous. Clause 3 was rendered in such a manner that its meaning differed entirely from the original. The Dutch text mentioned “louse-infected” cattle, the intention being to refer to “tick-infested” cattle. Grammar, vocabulary, and syntax were equally defective, and it would be nothing less than an insult to the House if it were asked to accept the Dutch version as it stood. It was true that this was not the fault of the hon. member for Border, (but that did not take anything away from the fact that Acts of that nature might cause the Dutch-speaking population a good deal of inconvenience, and he trusted that his suggestion would even now be adopted.

said the Minister of Justice knew perfectly well that his proposal would kill the Bill straight away. They did not talk about translations now, but they had not yet decided whether Hollandsch, the Taal, or Afrikaans was the correct form of Dutch to use. (Cries of “Oh!”) If the Dutch version of the Bill were bad, so long as it conveyed the sense intended by his hon. friend (Mr. Blaine) they might leave it at that. He (Mr. Struben) understood that the Dutch copy of the Bill had been prepared by a very eminent official of Parliament. Unless the Minister pointed out where the Dutch was very bad or ungrammatical, or where it did not convey the sense of the Bill, he (Mr. Struben) thought the hon. member might let the Bill go through.

said that in the English version of the Bill the word “tick” appeared, which appeared as “luis” in Dutch, which should be “bosluis,” because a “tick” meant a particular kind of insect. Again, in section 3, nothing was said in the Dutch version about “the man in charge.”

moved that the Bill be reported as amended.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill was reported as amended, and consideration of the amendments set down for Friday.

replying to the debate, said that he took exception to the statement made by the Minister of the Interior, that there was no country in the world which had a Minister of Public Health. The Minister was usually well informed, but in this case he was quite in error.

I said “not in a British Colony.”

Well, I take that correction, and still say that he is in error, because there has been a Minister of Public Health in New Zealand for the last ten years, and New Zealand is a country which we in South Africa can do well to copy in many enactments here at the present time. Proceeding, he said that the Minister of the Interior had stated that he would accept either the motion or the amendment, and he would ask the hon. member for Beaufort West (Dr. Neethling) to withdraw his amendment, and allow the motion to be agreed to.

The amendment was agreed to.

The motion as amended was agreed to.

contrasted the amounts set down for bacteriological work in connection with human and cattle diseases, about £20,000 being provided as against £41,000, the vote for animals. He hoped that the Minister concerned would see his way clear to make better provision on the next Estimates. Even if they included the amount set down for compensation for animals slaughtered, they would find that there was still a considerable discrepancy between the figures. While they all recognised the necessity of investigating the diseases of animals, he thought that something more might be done in connection with human diseases. For instance, so far as cattle was concerned, they all recognised that if they got a vaccine for tick fever the advantage to the country would be enormous. Money spent in that direction was certainly well spent; but it was surely their duty to do as much for humanity in the same direction. He referred to the fact that pneumonia, phthisis, and tuberculosis were germ diseases, and they should be investigated bacteriologically. He then dealt with a letter he had received from the manager of the Crown Mines, who stated that in spite of the great expenditure that had been incurred upon the compounds, with a view of making them healthy, and the building of airy rooms in accordance with the design of a competent medical authority, and in spite of cleanliness and good food, little progress was being made in checking these diseases. The greatest possible attention was being paid to diet, but in spite of all precautions enteric fever and dysentery were not on the decrease. A large number of men were employed—something like 12,000—and though it had been stated that tropical natives were most affected, he quoted figures to show that this was not the case. The only way of checking the disease was by means of bacteriological investigation. He went on to refer to the case of an engineer who contracted cerebro-spinal meningitis, and whose life was saved by serum discovered by Dr. Mitchell, of the Government laboratory in Johannesburg. Continuing, he pointed out that even Europeans were not immune from these diseases. He went on to say that on the Crown Mines they engaged 20 boys and their families, and though special quarters were built for them, all precautions had not had any effect. Two of the boys died from pneumonia, and others of the same party were affected. He thought that the time had arrived for action. He would like to see the Government laboratories enlarged, and these matters taken in hand on a larger scale. The Municipalities of Johannesburg and Pretoria both contributed to the Government laboratory up there, and he believed that other municipalities did the same. He understood, as a return, these municipalities got certain analyses, and a certain amount of bacteriological work done free. He was sure that the mining industry, which was anxious to do what it was possible to do, would be pleased to contribute something towards bacteriological work in order that the same privileges might be enjoyed. Striking results, he was sure, would be achieved if they could extend, and the work would no doubt result in a decreased death rate being secured. It was not only the people on the mines that were affected, but Europeans and natives in other walks of life. He was not going into the question of the transmission of disease by heredity, but they knew well that the progeny of unhealthy parents were not healthy. They had to go to far distant lands to see the results of bacteriological work. In Japan they had the largest laboratory in the world. Proceeding, he said he would gave them some startling figures from Japan and the Panama. During the Russo-Japanese war the Japanese had in the field with the force bacteriological experts, who ranked as surgeons, and the result was that four men died from wounds as against one from disease. In the case of the Boer war in this country, where the British Army had no bacteriologists with them, seven men died from wounds, as against thirteen from disease, showing the enormous advantage of having bacteriological experts in the field. In Panama the following was the death rate per thousand, 13.04, and of this there died from disease 7.45, and from external causes 5.69. He saw in the “Times” the other day a statement that this death rate might be envied by many towns in the temperate zones. He brought that forward to show that for the expenditure in the interests of hygiene and sanitation they were not getting commensurate results. Therefore, he hoped that on the next Estimates more money would be voted for those purposes. (Hear, bear.) They hoped to see in this colony a great national University, and they had to thank some very generous donors for their splendid gifts. He hoped when that National University was established, they would see here in the Gape bacteriological and chemical laboratories on a very magnificent scale. Then, perhaps, they might be fortunate enough in the world of science to make a new discovery. In the meantime, as that course would take a long time, he hoped the Minister of the Interior would see his way to increase the vote on the next Estimates, so that they might see the valuable work of the bacteriologists extended in the Transvaal, where there is such an enormous field for it (Cheers.)

expressed his concurrence with the views expressed by Mr. Lionel Phillips. They had, he said, an excellent department carrying on the work of investigating diseases here, but, at the same time, they were very much handicapped. He hoped the Minister of the Interior would take a note of the excellent remarks made by Mr. Phillips. Tuberculosis was undoubtedly making very large strides, and if it goes on as it has been doing, the natives would very shortly go. It was spreading right through the Native Territories, and also through the white population, and it was an exceedingly serious matter. He wanted to say a few words in regard to district surgeons. They had, he believed, been exceedingly well treated in the Transvaal, and also in the Orange Free State, but on behalf of those in the Cape Colony he could only say they had not been well treated. They had all sorts of duties imposed upon them If they took the ordinary duties of a district surgeon to-day receiving a paltry £75 a year, they would find he had to attend to policemen and their families, had to make examinations, and attend court to gave evidence, treat and attend to all police and assault cases, and so on, ad lib. So that the district surgeon’s time was almost fully taken up with Government work. The Minister of the Interior might-say, “Why is it that medical men will do it for a paltry £75 a year?” Well, it applied to other walks in life as well. The competition is just as keen in the medical profession as in any other. But he took it that no Government should get work done of that nature and pay such a paltry salary for it. He asked the Minister to go into the matter, and if he was satisfied that there were genuine grievances he would go into them. Another thing he wanted to refer to was vaccination being done by laymen. It was a serious responsibility for a Government to allow a layman to go about vaccinating people. It would cost the Government a tidy sum one of these days when they were sued for damages No one knew more than a medical man the danger and responsibility imposed on him when vaccinating a man, and to allow a layman to do it was extremely contrary to what should be, and he hoped it would be remedied. (Applause.)

said he would like to refer to some remarks he made the other day when he stated some rather gruesome facts for the information of the House. He was at the time unused to the atmosphere of the House, where it was apparently the custom to treat matters affecting the human race in a light and airy manner.

pointed out that the vote to which those remarks referred had been passed.

May I not refer to anything I said the other day?

No.

said that after all the matter arose in connection with district surgeons’ work, and the diseases to which he had referred.

The vote has been passed.

District surgeons were dealt with by the previous speaker.

said that with regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Yeoville (Mr. Phillips), he would like to point out to the Minister of the Interior in considering any increase he might propose to put on the Estimates next year, he would ask him to be very careful how far he based those estimates on the requirements of the native workers on the Witwatersrand, because he would like him to realise how far this expenditure for assisting the mine owners with their natives was bringing the country further expenses. The hon. member asked for an increase to the bacteriological vote, and pointed out the very considerable figures of disease among natives working on the Crown Mines. The facts disclosed by the Mining Commission were that the population was particularly healthy. The hon. member spoke of tropical natives not being particularly affected, but he did not think his figures covered overmuch time. The report of the Mining Commission stated that meningitis was much greater among tropical natives than natives of the Cape Colony and Basutoland. He entirely sympathised with the hon. member in his desire to see that these natives were safeguarded as much as possible, but thought he would achieve his object much better if he took the course of not bringing tropical natives here. He should go back to the attitude he took up four years ago, when he said that of all the things they could do they should not bring men here to their deaths from Central Africa. He thought the Minister would be much better advised if he took that advice and put a stop to bringing men to their death, rather than putting the country to more expense by trying to arrest the mortality among men who were physically unsuited to the work and climate.

said he was comparing the extraordinary low death-rate among the Chinese with the high death-rate among natives. He might state, further, that in regard to the tropical natives the figures he give were quite correct. The tropical natives were, of course, according to their own medical adviser, less strong constitutionally than our own natives.

accepted the explanation, but said that what was an inhuman thing to do in 1906 was an inhuman thing to do in 1910.

said the remarks of the hon. member for Yeoville (Mr. Phillips) were very lucid and able, but he did not think the hon. member was quite fair when he instituted a comparison between the efforts which were being made in this country in regard to human and animal bacteriological research. It should not be forgotten that, in regard to human bacteriology, researches were being conducted all over the world by men of the highest training and attainments, and it was not South Africa alone that ought to be called upon to make special efforts in that direction. The question as to animal bacteriology stood on a somewhat different footing, for they had animal diseases in this country which could only be analysed under the special conditions existing in this country. He agreed that it would be necessary, as time went on, to do more than was being done in regard to bacteriological research. At the same time, he did not think this country was lagging behind; great efforts were being made by men of great ability here in reference to this research work, and these would be stimulated by the Government. As to the remarks of the hon. member for Jeppes (Mr. Creswell) in connection with the natives, that was a serious matter from many points of view. He thought it had always been a great draw back that they had had to bring natives from tropical parts to work on the mines. That was a necessity—a very regrettable necessity. It seemed to be established that the areas which were recruited from at present, such as parts of Rhodesia and Nyasaland, were subject to the scourge of sleeping sickness, and there was a positive danger that by bringing natives down to the South from those areas, they were bringing sleeping sickness. It had been suggested that recruiting in those areas should be stopped in future, in order that the danger from this scourge should be minimised, and measures in that direction were now under consideration.

said he would like to congratulate the Minister of the Interior on the very friendly way in which he had treated the subjects of public health and research work. He thought, however, that it was not fair to put before the public the information that the sum of £89,456 was being spent on public health, when, as a matter of fact, a large proportion of this was being spent on other things. He hoped the Minister would give his attention to some of the items under this head, and see really how much of this sum could properly be debited to this vote. He might then be able in the next Estimates to increase the real public health vote.

said it seemed to him that the duties imposed on District Surgeons were very onerous, and that the District Surgeons in the Cape Province should receive at least as much as those in the Transvaal. The tariff was certainly not a very high one. In the Transkei the districts were large, and the District Surgeons received larger salaries than those in the Colony. He would point out, however, that in the Glen Grey district, which was a very large one, and where there was a very large number of natives, the situation was such as deserved attention. The system in vogue in Basutoland might be applied to the Territories; under this system, the District Surgeons give free medical advice to the natives.

asked if there were any fixed scale for the payment of District Surgeons by private patients?

said District Surgeons were permitted to have private practice, and to make a fair and reasonable charge to private patients. The vote was purely for public health work.

suggested that a fixed scale should be laid down for the services of district surgeons, so that people in poor circumstances would know what they would have to pay them.

suggested that in the new Estimates the votes for different district surgeons should be shown separately.

said he was prepared to consider the suggestion, but as there were 348 district surgeons the difficulties would be very great.

drew attention to the prevalence of venereal disease in Bechuanaland. It was to the interest of both natives and Europeans that Government should do everything in its power to cope with the disease. The district surgeons should be given a freer hand in the matter, and should go into the native locations to treat the patients, of whom there were probably hundreds.

said that for months the Government had been carrying on experiments in the Transvaal with the specific known as “606.” They had been conducting a regular warfare with the disease.

The vote was agreed to.

called attention to the unsatisfactory condition of the asylums, and said that there was a great deal of red tape before patients could be admitted. Then there was not sufficient accommodation in the Cape asylums, which were overcrowded, while attendants laboured under many grievances regarding pay, pension, and leave of absence. The system of mixing up criminal lunatics with other imbeciles was wrong.

associated himself with the remarks made by the hon. member for Woodstock (Dr. Hewat). He said that some extra consideration should be shown to the attendants on Robben Island. He mentioned the fact that these attendants only got 2s. 9d. a day, plus rations, and that the opportunities for promotion were very limited.

said that the members of the asylum service, so far as the Cape Province was concerned, were very much underpaid. The Minister knew that matters in the Transvaal had, to a very large extent, been improved. Those in the Cape Provincial asylum service would be quite satisfied to be put on the same footing with the employees in the Transvaal asylum service.

drew the attention of the Minister to what had appeared in the public press with regard to the unsatisfactory state of affairs at the Sydenham leper asylum, near Bloemfontein.

The vote was agreed to.

said that the amount for printing appeared to be very large. It seemed to him to be an expensive business, and he would strongly urge that the work be given out to private contract. The question of the Transvaal Government having their own printing works had already been gone into, and the recommendations of the Commission were that the establishment should be given up, and that the work should he done by private contract. He had the report of the Commission of 1906, which said that it was satisfied the Government could not do the work so cheaply or so satisfactorily as private contractors, and recommended that the stationery and printing department be regarded as temporary, and as soon as possible given up and other arrangements made. That was the report of the Commission in Pretoria in 1906. Then there was the report of the Auditor-General of the Transvaal for the year 1908-9, which showed that the actual expenditure in the Transvaal was £101,083. In the Cape the actual expenditure was £27,208, or one-third less than the cost in the Transvaal. Now the requirements of the Cape administration at that period were certainly as large as those of the Transvaal, and this was proof that the Government could have this work done more cheaply by private contract. He strongly urged that the works should be closed down, and that the work be given out to private contract.

said he hoped that the process of centralisation would not be too strongly carried out. In Maritzburg and Durban there were large printing works, which were much disorganised through the transfer of printing work to Pretoria, and he would like to get an assurance from the Minister that if he could not give them the full share of the Government printing which they had got in the past, yet, in inviting tenders, facilities and opportunities would be given to the printers in the disrated capital and Durban to tender. He was quite confident that if that were done, he would find that he would be able to place tenders there at economical rates. He wished to mention another subject, and that was in connection with the withdrawal of advertisements from the “Natal Witness.” It was stated that that action was taken because the attitude of the “Natal Witness” was adverse to the policy of the Ministers. He would like to have an assurance from the Minister that the advertisements were not withdrawn on that account.

said that he hoped the committee would not act upon the advice given by the hon. member for Cape Town, and strongly urged that the printing should be done departmentally. In doing their printing departmentally many economies had been effected, and the work was done far cheaper than under the old system. He thought they should rather extend than curtail this departmental work. He went on to say that the works had been of great utility, and raised the standard of printing in this country. They had printing done at the Government Works which was second to none in the world. He hoped they would not revert to the system of low wages that existed at the Cape, because he did not think that that was economy. In conclusion, he referred to the position of those engaged at the Pretoria works, and asked that some consideration should and shown them in regard to privileges.

said that the hon. member for Commissioner-street (Mr. Sampson) had pleaded for higher wages and privileges. All this had to come out of the pockets of the general taxpayer, who had to sweat in order to pay high wages to the people represented by his hon. friend. Then he had talked of the splendid printing done in the Transvaal. They could do equally good work at the Cape. He had talked of the “Transvaal Agricultural Journal,” but he (the speaker) would point to the geological maps of this country done at the “Ons Land” printing office. The printing in the Cape as had been carried on for a long while had been extremely good. The principle that had been propounded by his hon. friend was the Socialistic principle; but his (Mr. Merriman’s) principles were individualistic. He said that they should not pile these things on the shoulders of the Government, else one day they would be faced with a vote for the extra price they were paying for all these things. At the present time the people of the country did not know what they were paying for. Let his hon. friend, who had such good, sound principles, tell them what the privileges were that they were going to provide through the means of this excellent institution. Let the people know what they were doing, otherwise they would have this general lukewarm philanthropy, giving everybody everything, without considering the fact that the people had to pay.

was understood to say that he thought that his right hon. friend (Mr. Merriman) had been alluding to the individualistic principle of 30 or 40 years ago. If he was as liberal as he claimed to be, he should rather welcome the greater desire to see that the work which was done was produced by men who got an adequate reward for what they did.

said his hon. friend the member for Commissioner-street (Mr. Sampson) had talked about starvation wages being paid down here, and he would like to refer to a report by one who knew as to the wages paid to the printing men in Cape Town. That report stated that the rate was fixed by the masters and the Typographical Union in conference. This showed that instead of low wages being paid, the tendency was rather in the other direction. He also pointed out that these wages were fixed in the war and boom days, when things were far more expensive than they were at the present time.

said that whether the work was done cheaper in Pretoria or in Cape Town, he did not know —by private contract or departmentally— but he did not think that they could settle the question as to which was the better on the figures that had been submitted by the hon. member for Cape Town. The whole matter depended on what had been done for the £100,000 in the Transvaal and the amount spent in the Colony, and as that had not been supplied he did not think they could base a decision on what had been brought before the House. He had been concerned with others with this very question in the Transvaal, and they found it best to continue the Government system. Circumstances might have changed—and he did not say they had not changed—but he did not think the hon. member for Cape Town had made out a sound enough case for reversion to the old system. In conclusion he said he considered that far too much was being printed at the present time. He alluded to detailed returns of school statistics in the Cape, and said it was a waste of money to turn out returns which nobody ever read.

said he would be prepared to vote with the hon. member for Cape Town if it could be clearly shown that a return to the old system would be for the good of the country. But judging by what he knew and had seen, he did not think that it would be advisable to effect a change. He went into the question of holidays with regard to the men at the Pretoria works, and said he thought their grievances in this direction should be remedied. He also dealt with the distribution of “Gazettes,” and pointed out that Field-cornets got both the Union and Provincial “Gazettes,” while Justices of the Peace only got the Provincial “Gazette.”

it was understood, alluded to the publication of certain returns in connection with school attendances, and complained of delay in the publication, owing to the returns having first to be sent from Cape Town to Pretoria to be printed, and then sent back again, which resulted in a great waste of time, and was extravagant.

wished to know why certain J.P.’s did not get the “Government Gazette,” as they did formerly. They should continue to receive it, because many people went to them to have the laws and Government Notices explained.

said that field-cornets who got the “Union Gazette” were not always the best or the only people to explain the contents to the people of the country. He thought it would be very advisable that J.P.’s should get the “Union Gazette,” as they did in the past, as they were the best people to explain difficult matters to the public.

hoped that the Government would get rid of the Government Printing Works at Pretoria at the earliest possible moment, because it was never going to be an economical proposition. In ordinary printing works, when the men had done the Government work, or when work was slack, other work was done, but in a Government works, when work was slack, hardly any other work could be done, and they could not dismiss men like the superintendent, assistant superintendent, foreman, sub-foreman, and the like. A private contractor could, therefore, do the work much more cheaply than the Government could do. He was perfectly sure that if they compared the cost of the Government office with the cost of a contractor, the former would work out at an enormously higher sum. As long as they kept that Government department, they would lose money; and it always paid for the Government to go to a private individual and agree that the work should be done for a certain sum. He thought a contractor should be found to take over the plant at Pretoria at a fair price, and do the work there. The Transvaal had spent a sum of £100,000 on printing where the Cape had spent only £37,000, and they had in the Cape published quite as much public information as they had done in the Transvaal. With regard to the “Gazette,” he had always understood that it was a publication to inform the public what the Government was doing; but since the present Government had got into office, he did not know what it was doing, because, whereas formerly members of Parliament had always got a copy of the “Gazette.” that had ceased as soon as the present Government had come into power. It was advantageous to circulate the “Gazette,” and let the country know what the Administration was doing. It would not cost much to circulate a few hundred additional copies per week, and send one to magistrates, J.P.’s, and newspapers, which would be to the advantage of the Government and the country.

asked that the “Government Gazette” might again be sent to J.P.’s, as in the past, so that the public could be fully cognisant of the trend of public affairs.

in reply to Mr. Walton, said that the staff of the Government Printing Works at Pretoria was always kept down to an absolute minimum. The works were carried on economically, and if they were to give that work to a private contractor, it would only create an absolute monopoly. (VOICES: “No.”) There were no printing firms in this country that would take the whole of this work and do it,

No, no.

There are none, sir. I have been round to some of them, and there is no firm in this country that wall do the whole of the Government work. They would find that if they give the work out the large firms would combine and create a monopoly, and there would be absolutely no competition. Once the Government allowed their printing to get into other hands the price paid now would be doubled. It was not a fair comparison to calculate the difference between printing done in Cape Town and printing done in Pretoria. Possibly if the printing was done in Pretoria under circumstances such as he had enunciated it would be done as cheaply there. Under private competition men would only earn a bare living wage by working 12, 14, and 16 hours a day, and the Government should not allow those conditions to arise again. In fact, he hoped the Government would see its way to have printing works in different parts of the country. The hon. member for Gape Town (Mr. Jagger) wanted to see Cape Town the printing centre of South Africa, but it was not good that, in time, the work should be in one firm’s hands.

protested against the assertions of the hon. member for Commissioner-street (Mr. Sampson), and did not think that should be allowed to go on. The Government printing had been done in Cape Town in the past, and had not been done under the conditions he would have them believe. The wages paid in Cape Town were standard wages, and the Government printers had always paid standard wages, not fixed by themselves, but by the representatives of the men on the Typographical Union and the employers. He thought it ill became the hon. member to suggest to the House that the Government printing had hitherto been done under sweating conditions. (Applause.) He could quite see that economy was not anything this House was prepared to practise. They had the hon. members who sat on the cross-benches advocating the centralisation of printing at Pretoria—(cries of “No”)—as a sort of Socialistic experiment. The Government had got to pay for that experiment, and he claimed that it was only by fair and full competition in all matters where public money was concerned that the State was going to get the fullest value for its money, and there was no reason whatever why the Government printing should be concentrated in one centre at all. Much of the printing that was done, it did not matter where it was done, and it would be in the interests of the country and the taxpayers if printing of that description was put out to contract land open competition in the various centres of the country. They could not tell him, having regard to the figures contained on pages 70 and 71 of the Estimates, giving the wages it was proposed to pay to artisans in the Government Printing Works, that it was going to be cheap work to do all this printing in the Government works at Pretoria. The compositors were going to be paid a minimum wage of £5 15s. per week. That was, he understood, the standard wage in Pretoria. As against that they could get compositors on the standard rate of wages in Bloemfontein at £4 10s. per week, East London and Port Elizabeth £3 12s. 6d., and Cape Town £3 6s. He would ask the hon. member if it did not stand to reason that if they paid their compositors £5 15s. per week, if the Government printing was not going to be done infinitely dearer than at a place such as East London or Cape Town, where the rate of wages paid was cheaper. He claimed that printing, like everything else, should be done on business principles. The Government should have regard for the taxpayers’ pockets, and, as far as possible, see that the work was done on business lines. (Cheers.)

said he had been informed that it was the intention of the Government to withdraw the advertisements from the “Agricultural Journals.” That, he thought, was a very great pity, because they were the one medium in which all the farmers looked for information regarding machinery, etc. It should also have a kind of exchange mart for breeders of thoroughbred stock.

said he had also heard something of the sort, but would be very sorry to see it done. He hoped the gentleman who presided over agriculture would proceed very slowly with an innovation of that kind. (Hear, hear.) Before they proceeded to vote, he would like to reply very briefly to some of the points that had been made. He had no very violent feelings on this question of the Government Printing Works, or private printing works, for whether the Government had to get its printing done departmentally or by contract did not matter. To him it seemed entirely a business question. They would like, as far as possible, to avoid trouble, and save the country as much unnecessary expense as possible, and it was on that ground that the printing works at Pretoria could be defended. He had before him some figures, which showed that entirely business principles, and not artistic principles, were followed. His hon. friend for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger) quoted the opinion of a Commission that sat very many years ago, and that was long before there was Responsible Government in the Transvaal, and before this system was inaugurated. He was informed that their institution at Pretoria was conducted on entirely business principles, and, judging it simply as a business, it was paying a profit to-day of approximately £30,000 per annum. That was to say, that if they accounted for all the work done by the printing works for the various departments the country would have suffered a loss of £30,000. He thought he would be able to satisfy his hon. friend (Mr. Jagger) that in the interests of the country it was the best policy to keep up this splendid institution they inherited from the Crown Colony. He could say it was a really worthy institution, and it was doing the work of the country on business lines. The South Africa Act said that, at any rate, the railways have to be run on business lines, and the Commissioner of Railways said that since May 31, after a survey of the situation, they had come to the conclusion that very much of their work could be done more cheaply at the Pretoria works.

Have they called for tenders?

I think they have done more than that. I think they have asked for quotations from ail! reputable sorts of private firms in South Africa, and they have come to the conclusion that they can do the work more cheaply at Pretoria. There was no inducement for these gentlemen to go to them, except purely business considerations. So, although he had no violent convictions on this question, before members took any action on it they should see if it was to the financial interests of the country to alter the present policy. The hon. member for Maritzburg (Mr. Orr) had raised the question of work done at the disrated capitals. He had said once already that provision had been made to do as much as possible of the printing work of the Provinces locally in the Provinces, and that policy would be (followed as far as possible. Their idea was not to make Union unpopular by undue centralisation of their work, but to continue at a little expense on the lines laid down before. He had also raised the question of newspaper advertisements. He (General Smuts) had a great deal of trouble over that question for years. He might say it was often found necessary to concentrate the advertisements, and not to advertise promiscuously in all papers. The principle followed was to give the advertisements in rotation to the different papers, and not to advertise promiscuously. It was quite wrong to say that certain Natal papers were penalised in this connection because they did not favour the Government’s policy, and that other papers there were favoured because they favoured the Government’s policy. He read the Natal papers most assiduously, and he had never found a Natal paper which was in favour of the Government. (Laughter.) Proceeding, General Smuts said he had given instructions that both the Union “Gazette” and the “Gazette” of the particular Province from which hon. members come, should be supplied to hon. members. With regard to supplying “Gazettes” to Justices of the Peace, there was an enormous number of those gentlemen, and he did not think the Government would be justified in incurring the great expense of supplying all this number with “Gazettes.” Continuing, General Smuts said he did not want to curtail discussion on these matters, but he would ask hon. members not unduly to prolong discussions on these Estimates. They would have more elaborate Estimates in a short time, and would be in a better position to criticise them.

said that several suggestions had been made that on that side of the House they were obstructing. He wanted to point out that there were 25 millions to be voted, and if they were going to vote that amount in a hurry, because they wanted Christmas holidays, they had better resign. They raised these questions simply and solely because it was their duty to the country to do so, and because they wanted to ensure rational and proper Estimates next time. (Opposition cheers.)

The vote was agreed to.

said he saw there was an item for £15,000 for the deficiency on the Cape Town celebrations. It had now been ascertained that the deficiency would be less than £10,000, and he thought, therefore, that £5,000 should be knocked off this item.

said that the exact deficiency was not known, and he thought it better to keep the vote as it was.

said) he would like to say a word in appreciation of the way in which Cape Town carried out the Union Celebrations. He thought all who had come here from the North were immensely surprised and pleased with what they had found down here. (Hear, hear.) Cape Town had the good sense to concentrate their decorations, and he thought everyone admired the way in which it had been done. In addition to that, visitors were all lost in admiration of the way in which the illuminations were carried out and concentrated. The scene was one which could not be surpassed in any European city. Then the Pageant was of the greatest historical interest, and, of course, held in surroundings which had no superior in any part of the world. The whole of the celebrations were most enjoyable, and be was sure he was only expressing the sense of appreciation of the House when he said so. (Hear, hear.)

The amendment was agreed to.

said that, of course, he could not expect the Government to come forward at the present moment with any definite scheme of defence, but he would like to take that opportunity of asking the Minister, before he came forward with any defence proposals, to remember that this was a national matter, that it was in no sense a Parliamentary question, and that before any scheme of defence could be successful, it must have the full support of the people of both races in this country. (Hear, hear.) He would urge that any proposals should, if possible, be considered by representatives of both sides of the House, so that they might arrive at a common understanding. He hoped also that in any scheme of defence the claims of the many men in this country who had served the country in a military capacity in the past, and who had thus acquired unique and invaluable experience, would not be forgotten.

asked for information as to the grants to rifle associations.

said he cordially agreed with the hon. member for East London (Colonel Crewe) that if there was one question in South Africa which should be dealt with as a national question, apart from party lines, it was this matter of national defence. When they dealt with the question of defence, they dealt not only with the present but with the future of the country, and they would be laying the foundation of a system which would be vital to the great and the expanding interests of the country. They knew how one of the British possessions, which was now one of the greatest parts of the Empire, had commenced wrongly by not making adequate provision for the future. That was a fundamental mistake, from the effects of which that country was suffering to-day. He mentioned this because he felt the extreme gravity of this question. If there was one thing in which it was imperative that they should secure the co-operation of both sections of the country, it was this. As to the other point raised by the hon. member, he (General Smuts) thought it would be a bad day when they started any defence system in which they disregarded the valuable elements which the past had produced, in the form of military experts now resident in this country, who had acquired valuable experience here. He hoped to be able to go fully into the question of a defence scheme next year. With regard to the grants to rifle associations, he might say that there was a National Rifle Association in the Cape Province, which got £1,250. The Transvaal Bisley received £1,000, and the Natal Rifle Association and its subsidiaries got £2,650. The grant to the Rifle Association in, the Orange Free State was £500. These were the grants which had been given hitherto by the South African Parliaments to their Rifle Associations, the total amount being £5,400.

said he hoped that something would be placed on the Estimates next year in order to provide members of Cadet Corps with uniforms. He noticed that when the review took place recently, at which the Duke of Connaught was present, the Cadet Corps were not in uniform.

said he was sure the House had listened with a great deal of interest and pleasure to the reply of his hon. friend (General Smuts) in connection with the Defence force of the Union. He was certain that he would have the support of that side of the House, as he would have of the other side, in establishing the Defence Force of the Union on a national basis. Without in any way criticising his Estimates at the present moment, he wished to say that his hon. friend, as the representative of the Government, would be going to England shortly to attend the Imperial Conference, and he was sure that he would not be forgetful of our Imperial obligations, as well as our national obligations. (Hear, hear.) He saw that the amount on the Estimates for the 10 months, as a contribution to His Majesty’s Navy, was £85,000. This country had an ocean-borne trade of something like £90,000,000 a year, which was dependent on the protection of the Imperial Navy. He thought we ought to be prepared to take upon ourselves our legitimate obligations. Taking the basis adopted by his hon. friend the member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger), viz., a population of millions, the people of this country ware practically paying, something like 9d. per head on our sea-borne traffic, whereas the people of Great Britain were paying, on the same basis, something like 19s. per head. Hon. members would surely see that this country was not making a fair or just contribution. Taking the trade at £90,000,000, and the contribution at £85,000, the people of this country were paying practically a tenth of 1 per cent. upon the ocean-borne trade. The Cape and Natal had hitherto contributed to the Navy, and he suggested that the Transvaal should contribute an amount equal to the Cape, and the O.F.S. an amount equal to Natal, and that the Estimates for the ensuing year should include such a provision.

replying to Mr. HENWOOD (Victoria County), said that there was no diminution in the capitation grants to Volunteer Forces.

urged that the Government, in the Estimates for 1911, should make some kind of provision, so that the use of horses should be allowed to public schools, in order that the cadets could learn the elementary principles of riding.

pointed out that one reason why the cadet movement was unpopular among the Dutch-speaking population was that, as the movement was at present conducted, no regard whatever was paid to the rights of the Dutch language.

said he thought the House should have an opportunity of discussing the policy of the Government as regarded defence. On the next, Estimates their policy would be cut and dried. He could not help thinking that the Government would be well advised if they devised some scheme by which discussion could take place between the representatives of both sides of the House before they brought in a cut-and-dried scheme. The forces were now in a rather chaotic state in regard to the fact that we were now trying to unite four colonies which had four different systems. He thought the Minister would be well advised if he took steps at once to extend the action of the defence force of this country, so that there would be no difficulty in moving the force from one part of the country to another, if required. He considered that they were entitled to ask the Minister what was the intention of the Government in the immediate future? He would like to ask the Minister what provision he intended to make between now and the time when a defence scheme would be brought forward. One of the most important things was the training of officers, and whatever forces his hon. friend the Minister of the Interior (General Smuts) might want to establish in this country, it was perfectly obvious that unless they had properly trained officers, the forces would be practically of no use. He therefore thought that the earliest possible steps should be taken to establish a training college on the lines of the training college in Canada. The men who went to that college wore enabled to take civil as well as military courses of training, and afterwards they took high positions as civil engineers and the like, and supplied a capable force for the defence of Canada. He thought that they in South Africa should take into earnest consideration the question of training their officers at the earliest possible opportunity. Turning to the question of naval contribution, he said he wished to point out that if they deducted two per cent. from their revenue, that meant that their contribution to the Imperial Navy would be £240,000. At present the contribution was worked out on no logical basis. He reminded the House that in the old Cape Parliament, when depression was upon them, the first thing that was suggested was that they should knock off the naval contribution. He was glad to say that that suggestion was thrown out, but it just showed them that there was a danger of the contribution being interfered with. Whether the Minister of the Interior was considering the question of employing the services of the best man he could obtain to discuss this matter with him and advise him thereupon, or whether he was considering the question of the appointment of some Commission before which the views of the whole country could be given, he did not know, but he would ask him earnestly to mark the words that had already fallen from speakers as to the absolute necessity of bringing all the parties in this country into the defence force, in order to establish it on a firm footing.

referred to a circular letter which had been issued, stopping recruitment for the Volunteer forces, and pointed out that, allowing for wastage in the different corps to be 25 per cent. per annum, in the course of six months the strength of the Volunteer forces would be decreased by 12½ per cent. Now, why that circular was sent out he did not know, but it appeared to him that it was intended under some new defence scheme to abolish the Volunteers. He really could not understand why the circular had been sent out when there was some scheme by which the whole Volunteer forces would be abolished in this country. If the intention of the Government were to abolish the Volunteer forces, then he thought notice ought to be given to the officers of the various corps as quickly as possible, because they were purchasing uniforms and incurring debt. Referring to Kimberley, he mentioned that at one time the strength of the Volunteer force was 1,000, but now it had been very considerably reduced. There were 30,000 natives around Kimberley, and within the last year there had been two serious disturbances, and on both occasions the Volunteers had assisted the police to quell them without firing a shot, or hurting anybody. That spoke very well for the Volunteers. He should like also to point out to the Minister that during the depression in the Cape the capitation grant of the Volunteers was reduced, from £4 to £3 per man per annum. In a big country like this the reduction was ridiculous. Furthermore, he would like to point out that they had not the leisured class they had in England, and the officers could not always be putting their hands in their pockets. They had a clause of men quite as good in the field, but unfortunately they had not the means. In conclusion, he said that he hoped the Minister, unless the Volunteer forces were going to be entirely abolished, would raise the capitation grant from £3 to £4. He also hoped that the circular letter would be withdrawn, and that the Volunteers would be put on the same basis as they were formerly.

said that in Natal the circular letter regarding the Volunteers was not interpreted in the same way as it had been by the hon. member for Beaconsfield (Colonel Harris). He did not think that the intention was to stop recruitment altogether, but simply to keep up a certain strength and standard of efficiency, and not go beyond it.

said he wished that all the commanding officers had taken the view of the last hon. gentleman who had spoken. He referred to Kimberley as an important Volunteer centre, and said that on one occasion they were able to send a Large detachment to Bechuanaland to deal with a native rising. There had been considerable reductions in the last few years—regiments had even been swept away—though there were many men willing to join the Volunteers they could not be enrolled because of the orders issued by the Government.

said that white money was spent on Cadets in the towns, young people in some country places had no such privileges. There were many lads who could shoot well, and he hoped that the Government would also do something for them, although they did not ask for uniforms and the like. The lads were a great asset to the country. Government should subsidise rifle clubs so as to enable them to have prizes at contests.

The vote was agreed to.

said he would like to ask the Minister a question with regard to the Labour Bureau in Cape Town. Several of these bureaus had been started in different parts of the Union, he believed, and had proved very satisfactory. A great many had availed themselves of this bureau, and amongst these a number of the coloured class. Now, these people were somewhat apprehensive that their facilities for going to the bureau would be taken away. He would be obliged, he said, if the Minister would give him an answer on the point.

said that these facilities would not be taken away.

Replying to Mr. J. W. JAGGER (Cape Town, Central),

said that no State mining was being undertaken, save some operations on Possession Island, with a view to increasing the resources of the Cape Province. Dealing with the geologists included in the Estimates, the speaker said that these officials were distributed over the Union. Some were in the Transvaal, and in the near future others would be appointed to Natal and the Orange Free State. They were taking a geological survey of the country, and these officials would be required for this purpose. As hon. members knew, there was a Geological Commission in the Cape Province doing excellent work, and he (the speaker) had seen no reason for interfering with the work that was being done.

made reference to the question of claim licences and the payment of half a monthly sum of money to the owner of the farm and half to the Government. Small claim-holders complained about this large sum of money having to go to the Government and the owner, and it was deemed that it would be better if some concession could be made, under a new gold law if necessary, whereby instead of these claim-holders paying this large sum of money the licence money be suspended during the period a certain amount of work was done. He also considered the Government might assist small claim-holders in regard to batteries. He only mentioned these matters, hoping that the Minister would take them into consideration.

agreed with what had been said by the previous speaker. He proceeded to refer to the dispute which had taken place on the Aurora West, regarding which an hon. member had asked a question a few days ago. There were 15 men given summary notice in violation of the Industrial Disputes Act. Two men were taken back, but they were asked, and very foolishly signed, an agreement, on being requested to do so by the manager, under which their engagement could be terminated at a minute’s notice. Then the manager turned round and said that they could each take the minute’s notice. He did not absolve these men from blame, but he thought this a very dirty trick to play on them. He was sorry the Minister of Justice was not in his place, but he asked the Minister of the Interior whether he would not inquire into the matter, and see if anything could be done. He also asked for am explanation with regard to amounts set down for a Mines School and a Mines Training School. What did the Government contemplate?

asked the Minister, when replying, to give some information to the House concerning prospecting on Possession Island.

urged the importance of mining schools, in order to train Colonial youths to become skilled miners, instead of having to send oversea for trained men.

said his experience of the Labour Bureau at Johannesburg was that it was not so useful as it might be, because it was not known to the employers.

said the official in charge of the Johannesburg Labour Bureau was an exceptionally careful and painstaking one, and no blame was to be attributed to him. (Hear, hear.) He was also sympathetic to the men.

said the Cape Town Labour Bureau did a good deal of useful work. He suggested that the two Bureaus might be brought into touch with one another.

asked if the Government intended to give effect to the report of the Bewaarplaatsen Commission.

said he was not in a position to give a reply to the last question at present, but hoped to be able to go into the matter in the course of a few weeks. What the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger) had suggested with regard to the Labour Bureaus had already been done. The Cape Town Bureau was now simply a branch of the central institution at Johannesburg. He had no definite information regarding the prospecting operations at Possession Island, but the results were not very brilliant. Prospecting operations, however, were still going on in the hope that something good might turn up.

Will the prospector be paid by results?

I don’t know. Proceeding, he said that the Mines Training School referred to in the Estimates was not the South African School of Mines, which would be developed into one of the best engineering schools in the world. Formerly it was a branch of the South African College, and was located alt Kimberley; but of recent years it had been transferred to Johannesburg. Some of the best men on the Rand had been trained at the South African School of Mines. (Hear, hear.) It was very difficult in the Transvaal to get lads trained as miners.

Jealousy—Trades Unionism.

said the result was that some of our boys could not become miners, and instead were turned into shiftless individuals. To solve that problem—which was a very pressing one—(hear, hear)—the Transvaal Government some years ago thought of hiring a mine on the Rand and working it with white boys, so that they might be given a practical training extending over three years, during which they would be taken through a complete course of practical mining. The Transvaal Government, however, was not able to secure a mine, as the reduction of working costs made the owners less inclined to sell. Recently they had a different idea, and had made arrangements with the Wolhuter Co. to hire a portion of that mine and to work it as contractors with white boys, who were thus to get their practical training as miners. It was proposed to start with 50 boys. They hoped it would be a success—if not, so much to the bad for this country.

said he was not hopeful regarding prospecting for diamonds on Possession Island. There was a danger that diamonds might be discovered there, but they would not come really from the island—(laughter)— which was close to the German South-west African coast. Up to the time he left office he thought that the average cost of finding the diamonds on Possession Island was £15 per carat. The sooner this prospecting was dropped the better. The formation of the island was all against a pipe being discovered, there being only a little alluvial, which had been washed up. As regarded the School of Mines, in his opinion, it was one of the most admirable things that could be done. (Applause.) It was the one thing that was wanted to give an outlet to those so-called poor whites. They were not lazy people if they could show them plain work. At the present time they could not get into the mines. This thing, unfortunately, had been hanging fire for years. It was two years ago that his hon. friend and himself were in communication about it, and it progressed so far that he was asked how many men he could get. He collected fifty men, and took a vote for their exigencies. Well, he got the names of those people, and then he heard nothing more of it, and in answer to inquiries, he could never get any forrader. It was like Mr. Pecksniff’s house; it was just going to begin. (Laughter.) He was delighted to hear that a start was going to be made, because the evil was a serious one. On the mines the miners were paid preposterously high salaries—some got £60 a month.—and one of these men on the mines would be worth more than five natives. They were accustomed to the natives, and knew how to work with them. If they could only get these men into the mines and fill them up with their own people, it would be a grand day for South Africa. They would have the labour question solved, and they would also solve the question of their socalled poor whites. Therefore, there was no money and no means that he would not see spent on this thing. He hoped it would have the assistance of all employers on the Rand, because it would solve the question of the scarcity of labour and the poor white question. (Cheers.)

said he was sorry he could not see the merits of this question. Proceeding, he said that every time the mines had been short of men for any considerable period, they found a number of white men employed on unskilled work. In every mining country in the world a young man began his career by doing unskilled work and gradually got on to other things. The reason for the growth of these poor whites was that they deprived them of the only outlet for their energies. He was not sorry that the Government had found itself obliged to take notice of that growing evil, because he was perfectly sure that before long they would have to grapple with this problem in the only possible way, and that was by withdrawing this absurd system of coddling the industry. He entirely differed from the Minister of Mines, who said there was such an enormous difference between a thousand Chinese and a thousand indentured natives. They were exactly the same. By flooding the labour market with them they stopped young men from getting employment and wages upon which they could live. If it was not that most of the money in the vote had been spent already, he would have moved to reduce it; but he hoped that when the next Estimates came up they would be able to discuss it more fully.

said that the question of the wisdom of the step taken by the Government in this matter might, he thought, very largely be left to the mining experts in the House. It was rather late in the day now to start to explain to these gentlemen, who had been managing mines for the last 20 years, in the way these men should be managed, and it certainly did not become the hon. member to go into the question of the wisdom or unwisdom of allowing natives to come in to do certain labour on the mines. He wanted to say that he was glad to know what had been done, because it was an attempt to do something. They were entitled to say to the Government that they had public money, and they were entitled to make experiments along sound lines, and it was for them (the Government) to make experiments, no matter how small. What the hon. member had said might be quite correct, but he (Mr. Quinn) contended that the action of the Government was quite correct, because they were taking 50 boys, and were going to teach them to do something. If, when this thing had been discussed, and it had been proved —as far as anything could be proved of that character—that the views he held, and many others held, were not the right ones, he hoped the hon. member would admit, in justice to them, that they had acted in the interests of this country. What he wanted was to see this idea extended to the other trades. Hundreds and thousands of these boys were coming into the labour market, while these matters were being talked about, without there being any suitable labour for them to do. What made him uneasy on this question was that he did not see who was going to do these things. There was any amount of good will, but there was no opportunity. The opportunity would have to be made. There were difficulties, but they were not insuperable. He hoped it would be possible for the Government, by some means or other, to give effect to the expressed desire that suitable employment should be found for the growing boys of the country. (Hear, hear.)

said he agreed with much that the last speaker had said, but what he had wished to impress on the Government was the necessity for tackling this question as a whole, and not dealing with it precemeal.

said that if they waited until they could do the whole thing they were never going to do anything at all. They must begin first. He would tell the hon. member (Mr. Creswell) it was not sound policy to try to keep up wages at a preposterous height which did not pay. It was better for these men to get £25 a month than for them to get £50 or £60 and keep a sort of close bureau or Trades Union. The thing was to have a moderate living wage.

said he would like to know whether the hon. member (Mr. Merriman) was talking from any work of fiction he had perused or from actual experience of labour. All this airy talk about £50 or £60 a month had very little relation to facts. If the hon. member grudged a man the wage he earned underground, he could not have looked into the matter, and knew nothing of the hardships and risks of a miner’s life. It was easy to talk in the airy manner the hon. member did.

The vote was agreed to.

said that that was the first time that that House was asked to vote the salaries of the Attorneys-General of the various Provinces of the Union, and he would be glad if the Minister for Justice (General Hertzog) would tell them whether they were Union officers of their respective Provinces. Did they prosecute for the Union? What, generally, was their position with regard to the Union or the Provincial administration? Did they have pension rights?

thought that there was an excessive number of officials in that department. There were two secretaries, seven law advisers, and three under-secretaries.

asked who was the Secretary for Justice who got £1,800 a year? It was more than they had paid to the Secretary to the Law Department in the Cape. Was it one who had previously occupied the place, or a man appointed from the outside? Were these salaries to be continued in the next Estimates, or were they temporary appointments?

in reply to Mr. Walton, said that the first Secretary for Justice was Mr. Roos, who had been secretary in the Transvaal at the same salary. He might at once say that he had no intention of decreasing the salary of that officer.

Is he appointed on that salary?

Yes. Continuing, he said that Mr. Lonsdale, the other secretary, had been appointed head of the legal branch of the work, while Mr. Roos (he was understood to say) was head of the administrative branch. As to whether Mr. Lonsdale’s salary would remain at the figure it stood at to-day, he would say that the salary would not remain at that figure. Allowance had been made for the appointment being a temporary one. He was sorry that he was unable to give any information as to the question of pension rights at the present moment. As to the law advisers, these had. All been “inherited” from the colonies. He would require some of them in the Law Department; one or two others he would not require there, but he foresaw that their services would be required one of these days in other very responsible positions. He had not, therefore, deemed it advisable to say to them that he did not require their services any longer, because if he did, these men would have to be pensioned, and in a few months they would require their services again. As regards the Attorneys-General, they were Union officers. So far no special duties had been assigned to them, because it was difficult to say at once what duties ought to be assigned to them, but he might say that they had all been appointed on the understanding that they should act as legal adviser to the Administrator. He was very glad the hon. member for Cape Town (Mr. Jagger) had mentioned the matter of Public Prosecutor. Under the Act of Union the right to decide whether a prosecution should take place was left to the Attorney-General; and he (General Hertzog), as Minister of Justice, would not have to decide. As hon. members would understand the post of Attorney-General was a very important one, and they had to have men for that position upon whom they could absolutely rely, and to whom they could allow the greatest latitude. They were Union officers. As to the question of their pensions, there was no Union pension law, but their cases would have to be considered when they came to deal with the Union pensions.

said that the vote of the Minister of Justice worked out at the rate of £1 for every £5 of revenue, i.e., for every £5 of revenue £1 went to this vote. He would like to suggest to the Minister of Justice that the statistics for the whole of the Union should be embodied in the handy form of the Blue-book that they had issued in the Transvaal, entitled, “Annual Report of the Law Department.”

asked whether it was the intention of the Minister of Justice to bring about uniformity of practice as far as Crown Prosecutors were concerned in the various Provinces?

I am busy bringing about an alteration.

said that he did not know whether he had properly understood the Minister of Justice. He gathered that, as regarded the first Secretary of Justice, there was no possibility of considering the reduction of his salary. In regard to the second officer (Mr. Lonsdale), however, the question of his salary may be reconsidered.

said that that was so.

said that that struck him as an extraordinary pronouncement. In the case of the second officer, they had a public servant of twenty-nine years’ standing; in the other a public servant of two years. He should like the Minister of Justice to tell them on what basis of justice one man’s salary was to be reconsidered and not the other man’s. He did hope that the Union Government, when important appointments were to be made, would search through the Provinces of the Union to see whether public servants were available before new men were brought in from outside. (Hear, hear.)

said that he wanted to confirm what had been said by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort. The prize which was set before the Magistrates of this country was to obtain an appointment in the head office of the Law Department, and it was most undesirable that those prizes, when men were available in the Civil Service, should be given to out siders. Mr. Long also animadverted on the inadequate fees paid to members of the Bar who were employed to prosecute for the Crown at the Western Circuit Courts of the Cape Province.

referring to the appointments of Attorneys-General, said that he was a believer in the principle that in the Service they must give the officials of the Service, who were capable of carrying on the higher duties, encouragement to aspire to the increased positions. He mentioned the fact that in the Orange Free State, the Minister of Justice appointed as Attorney-General a new man instead of a man who was in the employ of the Government at the time. He would not say anything about the appointment itself, he would not say that the one man was better than the other—he believed that both were absolutely capable men, and that both were fit and proper men to occupy the position of Attorney-General—but he would say that in making such appointments the Minister should give every man in the Civil Service the chance of rising to higher positions, provided, of course, the were able to fill them, instead of going outside the Service.

said that he wished to associate himself with the remarks which had been made by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort in regard to Mr. Lonsdale. He eulogised the services rendered by that officer under the Cape Government, and commented upon the miserable salary which he was paid. He hoped that the Minister would see his way clear to ask Parliament next session to consider the case of Mr. Lonsdale.

replied, but the greater part of his remarks were inaudible in the Press Gallery. He was understood to say that nobody appreciated the services of Mr. Lonsdale more than he did, but he thought that his position should not be quite the same as that of the other chief officer. The second appointment was purely experimental, and might be subject to alteration on a subsequent occasion. With regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Bloemfontein (Mr. Botha), he wished to say that, so far as Attorneys-General were concerned, he would never adopt the principle that officers from the Service should be promoted to such positions. He pointed out that the position of Attorney-General was one to which senior members of the Bar aspired.

said the Minister was mistaken if he thought that he would get senior members of the Bar to accept the position of Attorney-General at the salary he offered. He did not think there was any leader at any of the Provincial Bars that would accept such a position. He was glad, however, that the Minister agreed with him that a Law Adviser who was capable of carrying on the duties of Attorney-General should have that position.

said he would like the question of the position of Secretary of Justice cleared up. He thought that the claims of an officer of the Cape who had been spoken of so highly should have his services fully considered.

The items were agreed to.

asked a question with regard to the Law Courts at Cape Town.

thought that the salaries of the Judges of Appeal should be determined by Statute, as had been the case in the Cape Province. He also referred to the disparity in the salaries of the judges in the four Provinces, and he went on to compare the salaries set down for judges in the different Provinces. What he wanted to point out was: that a Puisne Judge at Graham’s Town drew £2,000 a year, while his brother in the Transvaal drew 50 per cent. more. Making all allowances, he thought it would be more satisfactory if all the Judge-Presidents and all the Puisne Judges drew the same salaries. If a man was qualified to be a Puisne Judge in one court, he was qualified to occupy a similar position in another. Naturally these differences in salaries resulted in differences in pensions. A gentleman who for 15 years was Judge-President of the Cape Town Court would draw a smaller pension than a junior Puisne Judge in the Transvaal. Shortly (added Mr. Currey) a successor would have to be appointed to the late Sir Henry Bale, late Judge-President of the Natal Court.

asked the hon. member if he wished all judges to be paid at the highest rate he had mentioned?

Nothing of the kind.

Then you do want the salaries of the Transvaal judges to be reduced?

Nothing whatever could affect the present judges, because their salaries are fixed by law.

said he cordially agreed with the hon. member for Victoria West that there were too many judges in South Africa. Clause 102 of the South Africa Act contemplated a reduction in the number of judges, but instead of that, their number has been increased.

entirely disagreed with the last speaker. If the House was consistent, it would agree that judges should be paid as much as Cabinet Ministers, as judges ought to be placed beyond the reach of temptation. He believed that all the judges should be paid the same salary, but he preferred levelling up to levelling down.

said he believed in paying judges a fair salary, and at the same time of reducing their number as opportunity offered. Vacancies should be filled up from within the bench itself.

suggested to the Minister of Justice the question of making some better payment to men who served oh juries. Five shillings a day was less than a man generally earned in a day.

said he had already spoken of the system of drawing up the jury list. In Johannesburg only about 200 men on the list were used. If they must have jurors, the list should be drawn up only once every five years, instead of annually. He noticed an increase in the Minister of Justice’s Department of £64,000. Perhaps with a list framed every five years they would save some of that amount.

said he could assure the hon. member for Von Brandis (Mr. Nathan) that the question of the jury list had been receiving his attention, and would receive further attention. With regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Commissioner-street (Mr. Sampson), he might say that the payment of jurors was a subject which had been brought to his notice already. With regard to the question of the vacancy created on the Natal bench, he did not think of appointing a new judge, but was going to appoint one of the existing judges to the position of Judge-President. Proceeding, he said he felt that judges, as well as any other body of men in the service of the State, would have to be treated on a considerate basis. Hon. members would agree with him, that when they had to deal with the High Courts, the last thing that should be done by any Minister was to decide upon acts which would have most importtant results later on. They must not impair the efficiency of their judges; greater than efficiency was the esteem and status which the bench of the High Court occupied in the hearts of the people. They would have to find a basis, and he was now trying to reach that basis with the cooperation of the various benches. With regard to the question of the judges’ salaries, he hoped to be able to arrive at a general basis, if not this session, then next session.

asked what new judges had been appointed since Union?

said the Judge-President, Mr. Justice Ward, had been appointed in the Transvaal, and Mr. Justice Searle in the Cape.

The vote was agreed to.

moved to report progress.

Progress was reported, and leave obtained to sit again to-morrow.