National Assembly - 02 November 2004
TUESDAY, 2 NOVEMBER 2004
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____ The House met at 14:03.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the following motion:
That this House-
1) notes –
(a) the effective sentence of 12 months’ imprisonment with labour
imposed by the Zimbabwean parliament upon Mr Roy Bennett, MP,
because of a scuffle in the Zimbabwean parliament;
(b) that Mr Bennett pushed Justice Minister Patrick Chinamasa, who
had alleged that Mr Bennett’s ancestors were thieves and
murderers;
(c) that Mr Bennett made a full and sincere apology to parliament,
but despite this, parliament, sitting as a court without the
possibility of leave to appeal, imposed a sentence which can
only be described as grossly disproportionate, vindictive and
an abuse of power; and
(d) that the South African Parliament ...
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order, hon Mr Gibson! Hon members, it is very important for us to listen to the member, even if we don’t agree with what he is saying. Please! It is very important. Very soon you will be rising on a point of order, and I won’t be following because I can’t hear. Will you please respect the Chair. Thank you, hon members. Hon Mr Gibson, will you please continue.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Madam Deputy.
(1) That the South African Parliament witnessed fisticuffs some years ago between Mr Johnny de Lange, MP, and Dr Manie Schoeman, MP, and that their penalty was to be required apologise to Parliament and to be suspended for one day in the one case and five days in the other; (2) requests the Zimbabwean Speaker and parliament to reconsider the sentence and to impose a penalty appropriate to the offence; and
3) calls –
(a) ... upon the South African diplomatic representatives and the
Department of Foreign Affairs to convey to the President of
Zimbabwe the dismay of this National Assembly at this turn of
events;
b) for Mr Roy Bennett, MP, to be released from prison
immediately;
… on the Secretary-General of the United Nations, the Secretary-General of the Commonwealth, the Chairperson of the Nonaligned Movement, the Secretary-General of the ACPEU Parliamentary Forum, the President of the Pan- African Parliament, the Chairperson of the African Union the Chairperson of the Inter-Parliamentary Union and the Chairperson of the Southern African Development Community to communicate their dismay and disapproval of this persecution of a member of parliament; and
(c) on all democratic parliaments in the world to refuse to have
links with Zimbabwe while Mr Bennett, MP, continues to be held
in prison. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Chief Whip, are you covered?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: No. I was just wondering whether we were dealing with a motion or a statement here.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is there any other notice of a motion?
Mr K D S DURR: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice:
That the House notes that –
South Africans, particularly the poorest of the poor, are consuming genetically modified organisms and GM food products on a large scale without knowing it. South Africa is the only country in the world that has allowed GMOs to be used in staple food. When you eat mieliepap, the chances are that you are eating GM-contaminated food and only desktop health assessments have been made in South Africa. The South African government does not require GM-contaminated crops to be segregated from non-GM crops during production, processing or distribution. The government has failed to establish a food identity preservation system whereby GM ingredients can be traced through the food chain from farm to plate. Consumers have thus been robbed of their right to choose for themselves what they eat. If they wish to take the chance of eating GM contaminated foods, the effects of which no insurance company will provide insurance cover for, there is no effective recourse in the event of long-term health damage suffered.
The House calls upon the government urgently to rectify the situation with the proper labelling and food handling regime like they have in Europe and elsewhere, that will allow consumers the right to choose what they eat, returning consumer sovereignty to them. [Applause.]
ORDERS BESTOWED ON INDIVIDUALS AND ORGANISATIONS
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
(1) notes that -
a) on 29 October 2004 the President of the Republic of South
Africa, on behalf of the people of this country, bestowed
national orders on individuals and organisations; and
(b) the following orders were bestowed: the Order of
Ikhamanga, the Order of Mendi for Bravery, the Order of
Mapungubwe and the Order of the Companions of O R Tambo;
2) congratulates all the recipients of this year's national orders;
and calls on all the people of our country, especially the youth,
to emulate the example set by these heroes, to dedicate themselves
to hard work and to the realisation of human imagination and
talent as we work for the reconstruction and development of our
country.
Agreed to.
MOTION OF CONDOLENCE
(The late Mr Nelson Moonsamy Raju)
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes with regret the untimely passing of Mr Nelson Moonsamy Raju,
who until his death served as a permanent IFP member of the
National Council of Provinces;
(2) wishes to pay tribute to his distinguished record ofpublic
service in civic organisations and volunteerism, as well as in
active politics, which has made a significant contribution towards
the strengthening of democracy and nation-building in South
Africa; and
3) expresses its heartfelt condolences and prayers to his
wife, Gloria, and family during this sad time.
Thereupon the Deputy Speaker, in the light of the nature of the motion, with leave put it as a motion without notice.
Motion agreed to, all members standing.
ANC VICTORY IN MOSSEL BAY BY-ELECTION
(Member’s Statement)
Nkskz X C MAKASI (ANC): Sekela sithethi sendlu, Kwiveki edlulileyo bekubanjwe ulonyulo lovalo-zikhewu korhulumente bezekhaya kuzolwenke. Kwizikhewu ezilishumi ebezikhona, umbutho we-ANC uphumelele zalithoba. Le nto ithethe ukuthi uphumelele ngamashumi asithoba ekhulwini. Kwezikhewu zilithoba siziphumeleleyo, isikhewu sakwa wadi 9 eMosselbay ebesiyakulawulwa yiDA, abantu baye bayinyevulela iDA, yakha phantsi isitya sigcwele. Le mpumelelo ingaka icace okwekati emhlophe ehlungwini ukuba abantu bayayithemba iANC.
Ubomi obungcono kumntu wonke buxhomekeke kwi ANC. Intliziyo ye DA ilihlwili ngokuphenyelelwa kwale wadi kunye nomasopala waseMosselbay. Siyaphinda singumbutho wesizwe iANC siyazibophelela ukuba siyakusebenzisana nabantu ekuphuculeni ubomi babo nokulwa intlupheko. Ukwanda kwaliwa ngumthakathi bahlali! (Translation of Xhosa member’s statement follows.)
[Mrs X C MAKASI (ANC): Deputy Speaker of the House, during the last week by- elections were held for local government nationally. In the ten vacant posts the organisation of the ANC won nine seats. This means that they have unanimously won 90% of the seats. Out of the 9 seats, we have won the vacant posts of ward 9 at Mossel Bay, which previously belonged to or were under the jurisdiction of the DA. The people have turned their backs on the DA; they could not get anything out of the full dish. This great achievement is as clear as a black cat in milk, namely that people do trust the ANC.
A better life for all depends on the ANC. The heart of the DA is bitter as a result of the defeat in this ward, as well as in the municipality of Mossel Bay. We again, as the organisation of the nation, the ANC, find ourselves having to work hand in hand with the people to improve their lives and to fight poverty. One cannot diminish someone else’s success!] ADOPTION OF NCOP MOTION
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M J ELLIS (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC has placed itself in a very embarrassing position. The NCOP adopted a motion last week, which stated that it “regrets the refusal of the President to address the serious issue of rape in our country and acknowledge the suffering of women and children who are attacked on a daily basis”.
I am sure that the National Assembly supports this statement, and congratulates the NCOP on passing this particular motion. [Applause.] But now a very serious problem has arisen. President Mbeki is now doing his impersonation of a very heavy-handed P W Botha, and is demanding that the NCOP retract the motion.
Ever obedient, the ANC is convening a special plenary of the House while on its outreach programme in KwaZulu-Natal so that they can comply with the President’s request or demand.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon Mr Ellis! Yes, Deputy Chief Whip?
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, firstly could the member substantiate his statement that the President has demanded that. [Interjections.] Secondly, to the best of our knowledge … [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members!
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Secondly, to the best of our knowledge the NCOP is sitting in KwaZulu-Natal at the moment, so I don’t know what the issue is.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: That is not a point of order.
Mr M J ELLIS: I don’t think that is a point of order at all, Madam Deputy Speaker. Quite frankly, it is a series of questions, which I will try to answer if you want me to, but I would like to finish my statement first if you don’t mind.
President Mbeki has allegedly threatened not to attend Friday’s sitting of the NCOP, where he is due to address them, unless the House retracts. Once again, the victims of rape and sexual violence are betrayed by the ANC as it scrambles to correct what it now probably claims was a slip, which occurred because its members were quite clearly not paying attention. Thank you. [Applause.]
UNFAIR DEPLOYMENT OF AN OFFICIAL TO KWAZULU-NATAL
(Member’s Statement)
Mr A M MPONTSHANE (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, the National Department of Education has deployed an official from the national department to replace the chief executive officer at the provincial office in KwaZulu-Natal.
According to what the Constitution stipulates, this kind of replacement can only be conducted if the department has reason to believe that the administrative machinery is completely broken down to the extent that the smooth functioning of the department in a province is completely eroded.
What is not known to the IFP at this stage is what assessment procedures the department underwent in order to arrive at this decision of deploying a national level official to act as a replacement for the chief executive officer who has been temporarily relieved of his duties, an act which is itself clouded in mystery. Thank you.
CHRISTOPHER MONDLANE ON TRACK FOR A BRIGHTER FUTURE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M R SONTO (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC welcomes the initiative taken by the fourth-year students at Wits Technikon who were moved by the condition of Christopher Mondlane from Mpumalanga. They acted together with Mr David Field and Mrs Berneen Field to raise funds for the boy’s treatment.
Christopher suffers from an extreme form of eczema that has turned his skin into a scaly mess. The assistance came about when Mr and Mrs Field read about Christopher’s plight in a newspaper.
This fact alone shows how damaging stigmatisation and prejudice can be to those who are afflicted with diseases or disabilities. The 14-year-old boy has not been able to attend school because he has been ostracised by his peers.
The ANC applauds the initiative taken by the Wits Technikon students and the Field and Matthews families to help Christopher Mondlane. Their intervention shows how each citizen can help in fighting disease and poverty. I thank you. [Applause.]
RICHMOND BY-ELECTION TESTS UDM’S STRENGTH
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M DIKO (UDM): Madam Deputy Speaker, the UDM would like to thank community members of Ward 2 in Richmond who, despite the bad weather conditions, made sure that they exercised their constitutional right by voting during the by-election on 27 October 2004. We applaud the political tolerance shown by the IFP and ANC on the election day.
However, to our dismay, on Sunday night, 31 October 2004, five election posters of UDM members were burnt down. We urge the police to look into the matter and bring the culprits to book. The unbecoming behaviour will have a negative impact on the peace process initiated by the UDM, ANC and IFP in Richmond where the UDM retained the ward.
The UDM as an organisation still commands huge support in Richmond despite the perception recent defectors attempted to create. South Africans still view the UDM as an alternative to the ANC. [Interjections.]
Uyeke aba bamana bengxola, bengenela unyulo lovalo-zikhewu kwiindawo zokuhlala eziphezulu neziphucukileyo kuphela, bengalungeneli phaya ezilalini. [Leave those who like to make noise, taking part in the by- elections in better residential areas only, and who do not take part in the rural areas.]
The UDM is correct in calling for an electoral reform. Instead of proportional representation, we should have a constituency-based system. The latter will definitely increase the level of accountability. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
DISMAY OVER DEATHS IN PRISONS
(Member’s Statement)
Ms F BATYI (ID): Madam Deputy Speaker, the recent deaths of three inmates at Pollsmoor Prison due to a fire in the cells, allegedly started by themselves, is unacceptable.
The ID sends out a message of condolences to the families of those who have died. This comes on the back of previous deaths at the prison and the investigation is as yet to be completed.
These problems relate to overcrowding. What is of more concern is that government has been aware of the problem for the past few years but no alternative arrangements have been made to either transfer prisoners to other prisons or, if necessary, build an additional facility in the Western Cape.
Government delegations on parliamentary visits have thus far not addressed any of the serious issues such as the inhumane conditions under which prisoners are kept. The frustrations among inmates must be high. Overcrowding not only affects inmates but also prison management, especially wardens who must be suffering from extreme stress levels. Surely, there is now an urgency that requires immediate government intervention before we are faced with more deaths, escapes, violence and murders in Pollsmoor Prison. I thank you.
POLICE INACTION INEXCUSABLE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S N SWART (ACDP): Madam Deputy Speaker, Saturday 6 November is National Children’s Day and will be celebrated throughout South Africa. The question arises whether we can have a celebration when we have widespread child rape and abuse and when we have the situation of a 15-year-old being raped five times in two years by five different people. The worst part in this particular situation is that some of the suspects are known in her community.
In the one case, one of the suspects was caught in the act by the girl’s mother accompanied by witnesses. Yet, just because the matter was reported 74 hours later, the investigation was apparently aborted. Whilst we appreciate that DNA samples must be taken within the window period, where there are eyewitnesses to corroborate the child’s version as well as a corroborating hospital report, there can be no excuse for not pursuing the matter. The traumatised teenager has understandably quit school, and her sister has also dropped out of school for fear of being targeted.
The ACDP shares the view that the police failed to perform their duties particularly when investigating the first incident of rape. As stated in Sowetan:
Their inaction may have exposed the victim to further abuse and encouraged other suspects to act with impunity. We cannot allow this to happen in this country.
The serious issue of rape and abuse must be met head-on and dealt with severely. We cannot fail our children in this regard any longer. I thank you. [Applause.]
THE DEATH OF OPTEL ROOI
(Member’s Statement)
Ms E NGALEKA (ANC): Mevrou die Adjunkspeaker, die ANC neem hiermee kennis van die besluit deur die Direkteur van Openbare Vervolgings om die polisie- offisiere te vervolg wat die Khomani San spoorsnyer, Optel Rooi, geskiet het.
Mnr Rooi was ‘n gewaardeerde lid van sy gemeenskap wat sy spoorsnyvernuf gebruik het om sy gemeenskap op te voed omtrent natuurbewaring. Sy ontydige heengaan het ‘n geweldige leemte in die gemeenskap gelaat, asook in die lewe van sy gesin.
Die ANC wil weereens sy diepe meegevoel betuig teenoor sy vrou, Elsie, en hul driemaandoue dogtertjie, Romelia, wat van die geleentheid ontneem is om ooit haar pa te ken.
Dit is vir die ANC ‘n riem onder die hart dat die mense wat mnr Rooi geskiet het, uiteindelik gaan boet vir hulle daad. Dalk sal dit ‘n mate van berusting bring vir die mense wie se regte voortdurend vertrap word deur diegene wat veronderstel is om hulle te dien. Dankie. Applous.
[Ms E NGALEKA (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC has taken note of the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions to prosecute the police officers who shot the Khomani San tracker, Optel Rooi.
Mr Rooi was a highly esteemed member of his community who used his tracking skills to educate his community with regard to nature conservation. His untimely death has left a huge void in the community, as well as in the life of his family.
The ANC would once again like to express its deepest sympathy to his wife, Elsie, and their three-month-old daughter, Romelia, who has been deprived of the opportunity of ever getting to know her father.
It is a great comfort to the ANC that the people responsible for shooting Mr Rooi will finally pay for their deed. Perhaps this will bring a measure of acceptance to the people whose rights are continuously been trampled on by those who are supposed to serve them. Thank you. [Applause.]]
SHORTAGE OF POLICE PERSONNEL
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M WATERS (DA): Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Thirty percent of all police posts across the East Rand are vacant, leaving even more vacancies than the previous year. There is a 35% shortage of detectives, a 47% shortage of crime prevention police and a 12% understaffing of crime reaction police – all this, despite the ANC’s promise of more police on our streets. Local police stations in the East Rand have 218 fewer bulletproof vests than the previous year, and 302 fewer two-way radios.
This critical shortage of manpower and essential resources in police stations across the East Rand continues to put policemen and women in danger, while giving a boost to criminals. Is it any wonder that crime is being underreported? South Africans are losing faith in the ability of the police to solve crimes. Moratoriums on appointments to the police force cost lives. The DA urges the ANC government to take policing seriously and to fill all vacancies. SA Police Service members are overworked and underequipped. Their lives and ours are deliberately being put at risk.
THE ANC’S BY-ELECTIONS VICTORY
(Member’s Statement)
Mong L J MODISENYANE (ANC): Hlwaya tsebe o mamele, le boetse le dumme lebatoweng la Fezile Dabi, ha ANC e ne e ikgapela dikgetho tsa tlatsetso lebatoweng la pele, Ngoathe, lebatoweng la 15, Saki Rancho, le Ngwathe le Mokoallo ka tatellano ntle le kganyetso.
Hang-hang kamorao ho kgweletso ya dikgetho tsa tlatsetso, yaba diqi tsa ANC di a utlwahala mme ha tetema ka mpeng tsa makwala. [Kena hanong.] Mekga ya kganyetso ya ikgethela ho di lala ka mmele, etswe ho ema kgahlanong le ANC nakong ena ho tshwana le ho qapela pina seemeng. Dikgetho tsa tlatsetso di ne di tla ba ka la 27 Mphalane selemong sona sena, empa sephetho sa phatlalatswa ka la 19 Mphalane hoba IEC e bone hore ha ho nko ho tswa lemina mekgeng ya kganyetso.
Re bona ANC e ntse e ilo feta mohalotso dikgethong tsa bommasepala, ha e le moo mekga ya kganyetso e se ntse e peperana pele ho dikgetho. Baahi ba Mokoallo le ba Ngoathe ba se ba entse mohlala wa hore ke ANC fela Freistata le naha bophara le bolelele. ANC e a sebeletswa ha e na nako ya bo mohlohlwa o rapame, mokotla o mahlo. Pele ya pele, dikgethong re a ya. Halala, ANC, halala! [Mahofi.] [Kena hanong.] (Translation of Sotho member’s statement follows.)
[Mr L J MODISENYANE (ANC): Listen carefully, there was another victory in Fezile Dabi’s region when the ANC won the by-elections unopposed in the first ward, Ngoathe, Ward 15, Saki Rancho, Ngoathe and Mokoallo respectively.
Immediately after the proclamation of the by-elections, the ANC’s presence was felt and the cowards were frightened. [Interjections.] The opposition parties decided to keep quiet; in fact to stand against the ANC at this time is a futile exercise. The by-elections were supposed to be held on May 27 this year, but the results were announced on May 19, because the IEC could see that there was no competition from the opposition parties.
We foresee that the ANC will easily win the local elections as the opposition parties are splitting up before the elections. The residents of Mokoallo and Ngoathe set an example that it is only the ANC in the Free State and nationally. There is a lot of hard work being done in the ANC, as it does not have time for bone-idle people. Forward ever, we are going to the elections. Viva ANC, Viva! [Applause][Interjections.]]
DA CONDEMNS WASTE OF TAXPAYERS’ MONEY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr A C STEYN (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA condemns the waste of taxpayers’ money by the Gauteng Department of Housing. The full-page colour advertisement in the City Press lauding the contribution of the ANC’s recently deceased MEC for Housing in KwaZulu-Natal, Dumisani Makhaye, must have cost in excess of R46 000.
How can this cost be justified when thousands of impoverished people in Gauteng are still living in shacks under appalling conditions even after years of being on the housing waiting list? The cost of this advertisement would have supplied housing to two families at the maximum subsidy amount. Lauding the supposed achievements of an ANC party hack who presided over wide-scale corruption in the housing department in KwaZulu-Natal, cannot benefit the homeless in Gauteng. This is a clear case of the abuse of public funds in an attempt to benefit the ruling party. This type of abuse of power by the ANC cannot and should not go unchecked. I thank you. [Applause.]
PAST LEADERS HONOURED
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs M L NGWENYA (ANC): The ANC is heartened by the honour bestowed on the former President of the ANC, Comrade O R Tambo, and on Comrade Chris Hani by the Ekhurhuleni Metro Council. Both were posthumously granted the freedom of the city and both were once residents of the city. The honour was also given to Dr Adelaide Tambo in recognition of her courage displayed during the struggle for freedom and democracy. The awards were part of the city’s ten-year celebration. They also mark O R Tambo’s birthday on 27 October, and in our tenth year of democracy we celebrate his 87th birthday. It is a conscious attempt to show the historical link between those who planted the tree of liberty and the succulent fruit blooming on that tree. As we continue to celebrate the lives of these icons, we in the ANC rededicate ourselves to the ideals and the beliefs of those leaders. I thank you. [Applause.]
MUNICIPALITIES FACE FINANCIAL CRISIS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr K VAN DYK (DA): Mevrou die Speaker, dit is met skok en verbystering dat die inwoners van Suid-Afrika die afgelope week in die media moes kennis neem dat stadsrade wat die voedingsaar van basiese plaaslike dienslewering is, hulself op die randjie van finansiële ineenstorting bevind.
In ‘n verslag van die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies is bevind dat stadsrade ‘n gebrek het aan kennis van skuldinvordering, rekeningdienslewering, waterbestuur en finansiële verslagdoening. Terselfdertyd het menige stadsrade geen kredietwaardigheid oor nie. Stadsrade is ook deurspek met korrupsie en finansiële wanbestuur. Bogemiddelde salarisse word aan munisipale hooggeplaastes betaal. Raadslede het nie die tersaaklike vaardighede en ervaring nie, terwyl amptenare vermoëbeperkings toon om effektiewe dienstelewering daar te stel.
Dit is veral kommerwekkend dat 90% van hierdie 284 munisipaliteite deur die ANC beheer en bestuur word. Die ANC-Minister van Plaaslike Regering se aankondiging dat nog R15,6 miljard aan hulp vir die volgende twee jaar aan munisipaliteite verleen gaan word, is net ‘n korttermyn- krisisbestuurinspuiting en bied geen langtermynoplossing nie. Om net die belastingbetaler se geld te vat en aanhoudend vure dood te slaan, is onaanvaarbaar.
Die DA is van mening dat die effektiewe toepassing van die Munisipale Finansiële Bestuurswet nodig is, wat sal behels dat ordelike skuldinvordering op agterstallige en bestaande diensterekeningsgeld toegepas word en kredietbeheer aan die orde van die dag sal wees. Dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr K VAN DYK (DA): Madam Speaker, it was with shock and bewilderment that the inhabitants of South Africa were informed via the media this past week that the city councils, which are the main supply channel of basic local service delivery, find themselves on the brink of financial collapse.
In a report of the National Council of Provinces it was discovered that city councils had a lack of knowledge concerning debt collection, account service delivery, water management and financial reporting. At the same time many city councils no longer have any creditworthiness. City councils are also riddled with corruption and financial mismanagement. Those who are highly placed in the municipalities are paid above-average salaries. Councillors do not have the relevant skills and experience, while officials exhibit limited capabilities for establishing effective service delivery.
It is especially disturbing that 90% of these 284 municipalities are managed and administered by the ANC. The announcement by the ANC Minister of Local Government with regard to giving further R15,6 billion in aid to municipalities for the next two years, is just a short-term crisis management injection and does not offer any long-term solutions. Simply using the taxpayers’ money continually to extinguish fires is unacceptable.
The DA is of the opinion that the effective application of the Municipal Financial Management Act is necessary; this will entail orderly debt recovery on overdue and existing service fees and will ensure that credit control will be the order of the day. Thank you. [Applause.]]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I am rising on two points of order. The first is that Mr Ellis in his statement attributed statements and motives to the Head of State. I would want you to study the statement and rule whether it is in order for the attribution of such statements and motions to be made without any substantiation whatsoever. [Interjections.]
Secondly, Mr Steyn made a statement that an advert was placed, “lauding the supposed achievements of an ANC party hack who presided over wide-scale corruption . . .” That statement is being made in relation to an hon member of a provincial legislature who has passed away. I think that is disgusting. I would request that you come back to the House and give directives as to how we treat each other and how we speak about each other, especially about those who have passed away.
Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I address you briefly?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I first want to respond to Mr Nel. May I be allowed to respond to Mr Nel, Mr Gibson?
Mr D H M GIBSON: Yes. You are the one who decides what you can do and what I can do. I asked whether I could address you on the presumed point of order raised by Mr Nel.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Gibson, I am politely asking you to sit down . . .
Mr D H M GIBSON: Yes, I will.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: …so that I can respond to the request made by Mr Nel. Mr Nel, the request is well taken. The statements will be studied and if a ruling is needed on any of the two statements, it will be done at the next sitting of the House after we have studied the Hansard. Thank you very much. Mr Gibson.
Mr D H M GIBSON: Madam, I wanted to address you on the very ruling you’ve made to ask whether… The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have not made any ruling.
Mr D H M GIBSON: …that was a point of order. Mr Nel did not say that it was a point of order. I am not sure whether he was making a statement to the House or raising a matter on a point of order. If it was a statement, then one does not have to study Hansard at all. One would simply tell him that the time for making statements has passed.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Unfortunately, I make decisions for myself. And I have said that I would study the Hansard.
Mr D H M GIBSON: Thank you, Madam. That’s the point I was going to make before you spoke.
Mr M R SIKAKANE: Deputy Speaker, it is most disgusting and it is a shame about the member of the DA who remarked on the late Dumisani Makhaye. The member is in this House because Dumisani Makhaye sacrificed his life to bring them here. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Sikakane, I think there are many of us in this House who are still mourning. We have just buried someone who was very, very close to us. Let us allow each other the period of mourning.
I also think it is very disrespectful for any of us to be rising on a point about a matter that is still so painful to many South Africans. I therefore think the point made by Mr Nel that we should go and look at the contents of the statements and that a ruling be made is valid. Let us leave the matter at that point.
I don’t think that his family is happy - watching what we are doing now - because they are proud of what their father has been doing for many years, trying to fight for the liberation of South Africa and for all of us who are here, not members of the ANC or any members of any other party. All of us are seated here because of some and many of the sacrifices that Dumisani, as a person, has made. I think that we must end this at this point and wait for the ruling to be made at a subsequent sitting of the House. May his spirit rest in peace and let us not play games about his departed spirit! [Applause.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I just want to bring to the attention of the Speaker that during the time allocated for members’ statements the IFP was called only once. I think we are entitled to two slots; I don’t know what happened.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do you want to take this opportunity and make a statement?
Hhayi, ungabosenza njalo, baba. Velaphi, awuthathe leli thuba wenze isitatimende-ke baba. [No, don’t do that to us, Mr Velaphi. Could you take this opportunity to make a statement.]
CONCERNS REGARDING AL-QAEDA FORCES IN SOUTH AFRICA
(Member’s Statement)
Mr V B NDLOVU (IFP): Deputy Speaker, the Minister for Intelligence, hon Ronnie Kasrils, MP, recently brought to our attention the fact that there are Al-Qaeda forces based in South Africa. It is of great concern that there are terrorist forces in the country, especially at the time when South Africa is passing its legislation on terrorism.
Our concerns, with regard to Al-Qaeda forces in South Africa, are related to concerns about what activities they are currently engaging in that might possibly put the lives of South African citizens at risk. It is therefore imperative that adequate attention be given to this issue, as it pertains to the safety and security of the citizens of South Africa and the stability of the country in the long term.
If we do not take this issue seriously now, we might live to regret at a later stage not having done so.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Siyabonga baba. Siyabonga nakuwe baba uMpontshane. [We thank you, father. We also thank you, father Mpontshane.]
THE FUNDING OF SOCIAL SERVICES GIVEN THE MAJOR CHALLENGES AND OBSTACLES FACING DELIVERY OF SERVICES WITH PARTICULAR REFERENCE TO THE ENORMOUS BURDEN ON NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANISATIONS IN THE WELFARE SECTOR TO DO STATUTORY WORK WITHOUT THE BUDGET TO DO SO.
(Subject for Discussion)
Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Deputy Speaker…
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Dudley, I just want to remind the House that we are at motion number one. I was in the middle of reading out the topic when the IFP demanded their next slot. The item on the Order Paper is the Subject for Discussion in the name of Mrs Dudley on the funding of social services. Hon members, hon Mr Ellis, please, we would all like to listen to hon Dudley.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The ACDP has called for this debate today in view of the major challenges and obstacles facing delivery of social services. We refer particularly to the enormous burden on nongovernmental organisations and the welfare sector to do statutory work without the budget to do so.
I would like to stand here today and call for more money for everyone, especially NGOs which are rendering valuable services. But, the truth is, we all know that the needs are limitless and resources severely limited. To find more money we must either take from other strained budgets such as education, or we must borrow money and increase our debt, or we must increase tax and cripple productivity.
With welfare spending for this year at R45, 7 billion and rising to R64 billion in three years, South Africa now spends more than any other developing country on welfare. Despite constant warnings by Minister Manuel that the rate of increase in social grant spending is unsustainable, we simply continue as if we believe that by ignoring the facts they will somehow go away.
The ACDP is concerned that poverty is increasing its grip on the people of South Africa, and we agonise over the hardships and suffering experienced by so many. We, like you, want to help the poor but it is for the sake of the poor that we just must not allow ourselves to be party to bankrupting the country. We cannot sell out the next generation by hawking the future to pay for the present.
Despite four years of rapidly rising welfare grants, levels of poverty remain desperately high with the poor sinking deeper into poverty, according to the HSRC research. This expanded safety net aimed at alleviating poverty in South Africa takes up 91% of the Social Development budget. How sure are we that what we are doing has more benefit than cost to society? What are the alternatives? How can we strike the balance? What is affordable and what is not?
The ACDP supports the idea of a commission of inquiry to relook at this picture as a whole, to redetermine priorities and redirect - where necessary - our limited resources to where they will be most beneficial and truly impact positively on the lives of the most needy. Our first priority must be to get people working so they can escape the poverty dependency trap. This means tax incentives for those who actually create work and not fantasy programmes which put R1,5 million into the hands of ANC youth, as witnessed in the Eastern Cape recently, to equip fancy but unused offices with top-of-the-range equipment and furniture, and expect them to magically stimulate the economy by facilitating skills development and finding jobs. These youths have the passion and even the desire but no clue on how to accomplish their task, and certainly no experience or expertise.
The ACDP believes efforts with regard to developmental aspects of social welfare make good common sense. We know the commitment of NGOs to developmental work, but realise that dire restrictions imposed by the very small percentage of 4,5% of the total budget, which is allocated to social welfare services, means developmental projects are often overshadowed, leaving prevention, awareness and early intervention strategies shelved. The immediate needs of the overwhelming numbers of Aids orphans, in other words, simply take priority.
Tragically, the budget for social services is entirely inadequate to meet the ever-increasing needs of our society, and fundraising has become increasingly difficult for NGOs. The department reported this year that almost 62 000 orphaned and vulnerable children, and 10 000 child-headed households have been identified and have received appropriate services. However, these achievements sadly pale in comparison to projections of 800 000 Aids orphans by 2005.
Nonprofit child protection agencies are, in terms of draft legislation, legally responsible for rendering services on government’s behalf. Yet the state is not legally responsible for funding them. This, of course, is problematic for the already stretched and underresourced child protection system which is in danger of collapsing under the strain.
As much as 85% of the work of many NGOs is statutory, yet less than 50% of their budget is subsidised by government. Some organisations doing amazing work receive between nothing and 35%. Overseas funders, they say, do not want to fund the statutory work. NGOs believe government should contract rather than subsidise them and pay in full for their services.
The ACDP believes the need for undertaking a costing exercise to accurately assess the costs involved before services are contracted or commissioned by government and targets set, to be long overdue. At present NGOs are unable to pay social workers the salaries that are paid in the public sector. This results in staff turnover of 50% to 90% and leaves little to no chance of NGOs ever having black senior staff or meeting transformation criteria. One organisation in the Western Cape experienced a 300% turnover in one year.
A recent survey shows that 61% of NGO staff earns less than R3 000 a month. The NGOs say that they have become training facilities for the public sector but are progressively unable to provide services themselves. In this way, NGOs are crowded out by government. Lack of adequate funding impacts very seriously on communities and it means that many, many children, often Aids orphans, are stuck in the system.
With insufficient social workers to undertake the necessary statutory work, children are unable to be suitably placed in foster care or adopted. In one agency that looks after orphaned children, there is a backlog of 1 500 foster care applications because they are unable to investigate these cases. The one and only person working on these cases is overseas-funded and not state-funded.
Children are dying before case workers get to them. This distressing reality devastates and discourages workers. State-subsidised posts have not been increased in 15 years. Thousands of older persons, many caring for orphaned grandchildren, are also not receiving community-based support services as promised by government, along with drastically reduced financing of homes for the aged. Of course, late and erratic payment of subsidies has also exacerbated the situation.
The latest draft finance policy for NGOs which deliver services on behalf of government was presented at Minmec recently. This long overdue policy however does not seem to present a solution. While the concept is fine, the policy contains no details of who will be funded. Financing criteria are still not clear and no measures are in place to monitor or ensure provinces implement policy, in line with any specific criteria.
NGOs do not hold that much hope that the revised policy will be any more workable than the previous one. They were hoping for a policy document which was more than just philosophy and transformation principles. The sweeping generalisations and innuendos accusing NGOs of ignoring transformation have hit below the belt for the majority of NGOs, of whom this is absolutely untrue and an unfair reflection. Those on the ground who work hands-on in communities face crises situations daily. [Time Expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms I W DIREKO: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the topic of today is one that is close to my heart. We in the ANC have worked towards the liberation of our people for years and it gives me particular pleasure to lay another stone on our foundation to empower our people on this journey to extricate ourselves from poverty.
The Department of Social Development has always co-operated with civil society in the area of welfare services to children, in particular. During the apartheid years, this co-operation was racially graded because spending was skewed heavily towards expensive institutional provision for white children or white beneficiaries. A further bias was the disproportionate subsidy of organisations run within the Dutch Reformed Church for services for white people only. Consequently there were several specialised nongovernmental organisations that had significant funding from government.
These organisations were mostly based in white urban areas. They mostly focused on processing adoptions under the Child Care Act of 1983. They undertook procedures for the alternative placement of children and removed children from their parents’ care. But, thank goodness, with the advent of an ANC democratic dispensation, a significant portion of services in South Africa are now provided by more than 3 600 community-based organisations. These services range from prevention to the continuum of care and embrace all ages and conditions. They cover every terrain: women, older persons and the youth, children, families, drug abusers, disability, crime, HIV and Aids, poverty and income generation.
These services benefit more than 11,5 million people of all ages throughout South Africa; employ more than 26 000 social service professionals and other personnel; and involve at least 42 000 volunteers from the community. At this point one needs to emphasise the pivotal role played by volunteers in any community and this has happened over decades.
Government financing constitutes less than 30% of the total cost, however. It is therefore imperative that as we move forward we look at critical issues that need our attention. These issues are: financing of services provided by NGOs, and the partnership between the department and the NGO sector. These are issues that we need to address as a government.
The inadequate funds available for social services really need our attention. We are in the process of dealing with the financing policy, which we need to look at very carefully. We need to come up with a financing policy that will reduce the burden of poverty on the less advantaged people in our communities.
The funds that are needed are necessary for development and social welfare services, and to support and care for people, families and communities who are poor and vulnerable. The percentage of the national budget that is allocated for social welfare services is alarmingly small - and we need to take note of this - compared to the 91% for social security. It is totally inadequate to meet the needs that are only too prevalent. This is even more apparent when considering that this amount must cover the services provided by the provincial departments, as well as services provided by NGOs.
I will highlight the following facts and examples to convey to you how this situation is impacting on the ability of NGOs to provide services and how people are suffering as a result. The brain drain from the NGO sector has paralysed services and this has had the effect of putting the poor in distress. There are too few social workers left in the NGO sector, and they go into private practice or go oversees. Nongovernmental organisations cannot compete with the salaries these bodies offer their workers, so the social workers that remain do not have the necessary experience to carry this burden.
The NGO sector’s remaining pool of social workers is mainly an inexperienced workforce, and this seriously impacts on our standard of service. Most importantly, the lack of adequate funding impacts very seriously on communities and means that many children, often Aids orphans, are stuck in the judicial system. The children and their carers are caught up in legal processes to ensure that the children are placed in foster care. Nongovernmental organisations report backlogs of up to 1 400 and more cases of foster care applicants who require investigation.
It is an unfortunate fact that there have been instances where, despite having been promised assistance, organisations have not received funds timeously. The children’s homes undertake a statutory service on behalf of the state. The fact that government children’s homes cost R5 699 per child per month as compared to the average of only R857 per child per month paid by the department to NGO children’s homes starkly portrays the vast difference between the two in their funding.
The Aids pandemic continually increases the demands made on existing NGOs to provide care and protection services. The simple fact is that we are unable to meet these demands due to inadequate financing. The number of orphaned children reported to child welfare societies throughout the country tripled between 2000 and 2003 compared to the data of the previous three years. This is in all provinces of the country, and it highlights how this has become a national crisis that affects all our communities and all NGOs.
The department’s financing of the various services often stays at the same level for years with no increases being given. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, can I say from one democrat to another that we wish Senator John Kerry all the best in today’s US elections. [Laughter.]
The stifling of economic growth by the ANC through choking labour regulations, its inability to address the Aids pandemic and the loss of over 1 million real jobs since 1994 has led to over 25 million South Africans living below the poverty line. This is defined as a family of four earning less that R1 300 per month. This places a huge burden on social security.
The DA believes in an opportunity society, one where the individual can achieve his or her full potential. The current welfare system offered by the ANC is becoming too costly according to the Minister of Finance, where welfare spending is set to rise from R45, 7 billion to R64,6 billion in three years.
The government is said to be shocked at the sudden rise of people receiving grants. In April this year, nearly eight million people were beneficiaries to one or other form of grant, six months later this has risen to 10 million. One could say the ANC has itself to blame for failing to rise to the challenge of HIV/Aids. What we witness each day with 1 000 Aids deaths, and the emergence of a new phenomenon, child-headed households, could have been substantially reduced had the ANC tackled HIV/Aids head-on earlier.
The excuse of the Minister of Health that treatment of HIV/Aids was too expensive is now being exposed for what it really is, namely a farce. The fact of the matter is it is now more expensive to look after the orphans and the destruction that Aids leaves behind than it would have been to treat people years ago.
Another reason for the corruption and abuse that is taking place with regards to the awarding of grants is the chronic shortages of social workers. According to a reply to a parliamentary question of mine, there is a 74% vacancy rate of social workers in the Department of Social Development when one takes the ratio of one social worker to 5 000 people. The international norm is one social worker to 1 500 people. This means our actual shortage of social workers is a staggering 92%. There is no way social workers, along with all their other responsibilities, can assess every single grant application that is made. It is just physically impossible.
In addition, the current welfare policy of the ANC leaves millions of impoverished South Africans out in the cold, as they do not meet the requirements for grants and are unable to support themselves. This is not because they are physically incapable of it, but rather because there is simply no room for them in South Africa’s economy as it is currently constructed. They are chronically unemployed, because they lack skills that the labour market demands and have no means to obtain these skills. They are sentenced to a life of destitution.
The DA believes that government should provide a basic income to poverty- stricken South Africans who have no way of supporting themselves. To this end the DA will introduce a basic income grant, BIG, implemented, and I must stress, in conjunction with policies designed to achieve faster growth.
According to Robin Lee who writes in this week’s Financial Mail:
The arguments for BIG are well known. It increases choice rather than
dependency. Even at a moderate level it has a measurable impact on the
57% of our population below the poverty line. It is aimed at poverty
itself, not the consequences of poverty, and does not encourage people
to disadvantage themselves to qualify for a grant, for instance, by
becoming pregnant to access a child grant. It would be much easier to
administer than the current welfare grants.
The basic income grant’s reach would be deep into the areas where the current grant system fails to reach, namely the eight million unemployed.
However, the DA and I would like to stress that BIG, or any other grant system, can only at best alleviate poverty, and not eradicate it. The only way we will eradicate poverty is through job creation. That will free millions of poor people from the shackles of poverty, which is normally a life sentence. The BIG will be able to close the poverty gap by 74%.
As we all know, governments cannot and do not create sustainable jobs. The ANC is proof of that through the loss of over one million jobs since they came into power. All that governments can do is to create an environment in which the economy will flourish and jobs will be created.
To this end the DA proposes that, firstly, the labour legislation is amended to allow more flexibility in the labour market while still protecting workers from exploitation. Even the ANC admits through its policies that the minimum wage is stifling job creation. Why then does the ANC suggest paying the poorest of the poor less than the minimum wage through its Public Works Programme? It is hypocritical of the ANC to exclude itself from stringent labour regulations when it imposes such regulations on struggling small and medium businesses to the detriment of economic growth.
Secondly, we propose the direct reimbursement of business in full for money spent on approved training. This would replace the dysfunctional and inefficient Setas. Thirdly, we propose tax break deductions of 150% for the first R2 000 per month of employees’ salaries, and lastly, exemption from capital gains tax for small businesses.
Under a DA government, fewer and fewer people will rely on government for their survival and wellbeing as economic growth, job creation and training will empower people to take control of their own lives and destinies. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Mrs I MARS: Madam Deputy Speaker and colleagues, South Africa is a country with a history of deep-seated systemic and structural inequalities, and it is still undergoing processes of restructuring and transformation. Access to services is one of the major issues that form part and parcel of the effects of multifaceted poverty.
Consequently, budget allocations in relation to social services are a critical factor in determining how many people will be able to have access to life-saving and life-changing social development, health and education programmes. These are absolutely critical for the emancipation of our poorer South Africans from conditions of endemic poverty.
With regard to education since 1994, budget reviews have indicated that there has been a significant increase of 117% in the education budget. Almost 6% of South Africa’s gross domestic product, GDP, is spent on education, putting the country on a substantially high rate of government investment in education.
Developing countries generally devote a large share of their GDP to education, much more than they did in 1980. However, this share, of course, is still smaller than that of developed countries, which spend a great deal more. However, it has to be noted that the increase in expenditure on education is most significant in dealing with systemic poverty, which is closely linked to illiteracy and access to jobs.
Job Seeker require, first and foremost, an education in order to have access to other resources. Therefore, it has to be recognised that education is a key tool for the reduction of the poverty of education and its effects of deprivation. The poorer and more rural provinces are most burdened with the problem of the endemic backlogs that were created by 40 years of apartheid education. The government should therefore consider substantial budgetary increases for the poorer provinces.
Another concern is the estimation that there are just over 152 schools where learners are physically taught under trees in South Africa. Budget allocations have to be conducted in line with provincial needs, which include the infrastructural requirements of each province. It is for this reason that budgetary reform processes are critical in order to ensure that the deadlines indicated by the President, namely that by 2005 there will be no learners under trees, can be met.
As indicated by provincial trends in government spending, the provincial health budgets rose by 4,4% in real terms to R40, 6 billion between 2003-
- Over the MTEF period they are projected to grow by 3,3% a year in real terms, to reach R47, 4 billion by 2006-07.
The health sector’s HIV/Aids conditional grants will rise to R1,6 billion over the next three years to fund the roll out of the ARV programme. The HIV/Aids pandemic is known to exacerbate conditions of poverty, which makes it imperative for poor people to have access to ARVs to save their lives. There are still many people who have not been tested, which means that the number of those infected will be considerably higher than currently known. It is, therefore, critical for our government to increase its budget for the ARVs in other to cater for the millions of people infected by HIV in South Africa.
In relation to social spending . . . [Time expired.]
Mr M STEPHENS: Madam Speaker and hon members, the funding of social services is a fundamental duty of the state. No socially responsible state can escape or avoid its vital duty to support the weak, the poor and those in society who find themselves in need, nor should it wish to do so.
Whatever the incentives offered to civil society and private enterprise to contribute, the lion’s share is inevitably and quite correctly borne by the fiscus. Presently social security enjoys a vastly improved status over any previous time. But that is not high praise, because a more dismal social security regime than the one that pertained under apartheid is hard to contemplate.
The most welcomed aspect of present policy has been the much wider casting of the social security net. It now includes many millions more of the needy than ever before. However, it is insufficient merely to cast a wider net. It is a fundamental requirement of social security benefits that they are adequate for the purpose intended.
Most grants and all present social pensions are wholly inadequate to maintain any independently living person. They constitute no more than emergency financial relief. The UDM does not accept hon Minister Manuel’s assertion that adequate social pensions are not affordable. On the contrary, what we cannot afford is to allow the old, the weak and the sick to live out their lives in abject poverty. We cannot afford to allow them to live without dignity, comfort or hope, always dependent on the goodwill of others.
How can we afford, year after year and budget after budget, to give away billions in tax breaks to the rich, but we cannot afford to care adequately for those in need. [Interjections.] No, in this country we do not lack the wherewithal. What we do lack is the political will to find the funds to finance an adequate, holistic social security system. [Time expired.]
Ms F BATYI: Hon Deputy Speaker and members in the House, significant progress has been made in bringing better education, health care, housing and other social amenities to the previously disadvantaged. Yet poverty is so widespread and income disparities remain enormous as economic liberation and tight budgetary policies complicate efforts to improve living conditions and expand opportunities for the poor.
Studies indicate that spending on health, education, welfare and housing have risen from 52,9% to 58,3% of the total budget from 1994 to the present. A recent report by the Human Sciences Research Council argues that increased access to social services largely benefited urban and peri-urban households. Authorities are still struggling to provide basic infrastructure and social services to the rural poor.
A number of local governments in rural areas have complained of insufficient funding for service provision. Key constraints in delivery were insufficient capacity and uncertain funding, the report said. Many local governments have encountered problems like poor service provision in townships, including lack of economic viability due to a rent boycott culture. Institutional arrangements need to be altered in order that development goals might be met.
The health sector continues to be challenged by questions of quality and efficiency, particularly at the provincial level. More specifically, challenges are posed by the lack of basic infrastructure in many rural and peri-urban areas, and insufficient personnel to staff new clinics recently built.
The move to equity between provinces has not necessarily resulted in shifting resources from the privileged to the disadvantaged sectors of the population. With large portions of the entire provincial education budget fixed in personnel costs, difficulties associated with increasing the teacher pupil ratio and the . . . [Time expired.]
Mrs H I BOGOPANE-ZULU: Deputy Speaker, the Department of Social Services has committed itself to enabling the poor, the vulnerable and the excluded within the South African society to secure a better life for themselves in partnership with them, and with all those who are committed to phasing in a caring society. + It is extremely important that as this debate takes place we understand that the Department of Social Development relies on the effectiveness and efficiency of the capacity provinces have to deliver their services. But it is also important for us to understand that social services alone cannot make South Africa a better country. We also want to ensure that we don’t create a dependent society.
The post-1994 era has brought about major changes in South Africa. These changes have had an impact not only on the South African people, but also on the institutions.
We acknowledge that it would be incorrect for us to say that social development can change the lives of people, especially when acknowledging the fact that despite the above, service delivery has not taken place. But we also bear in mind the challenges facing the delivery of services. The hon Waters, for example, outlined the whole issue of social workers. It takes four years to train a social worker, and I don’t think that during the time when your government was in power they did a good job either. [Interjections.] But it is also important for you to acknowledge that unfortunately the DA will not be in power. You had your chance, and your recommendations should have made a difference then. [Applause.]
Attempts have been made to develop a financing policy for the nonprofit sector, but we acknowledge that that policy has not been successful. It would be important to acknowledge the attempt that has been made. The hon Dudley referred to it, but in her reference to the policy she indicated that the policy does not outline who has to be funded. I was sitting there and trying to understand whether the policy should determine the names of NGOs that are going to be funded, because it is actually very clear who is eligible for funding.
The policy sets guidelines that NGOs must comply with, and amongst other things, NGOs must be registered. The policy must provide for equitable distribution, because the reality is that it is those empowered NGOs that used to receive government funding under the previous government that continue to receive it.
We need also to ensure that the balance between urban and rural areas becomes a reality. Equity to other people means . . . I am not sure what it means to them, but in the ANC it means that we need to ensure that we find a balance between NGOs that receive funding from the state in terms of their geographical location.
The reality is that NGOs in the urban areas have received, and continue to receive, funding based on the facts that they have the required capacity, meet the donor demands, as well as have the ability to monitor and evaluate.
However, in the rural areas our people don’t have the capacity. The commitment that social development made to ensure that it changes the lives of those that need it most remains a challenge. The moving away from welfare services to social development, hon Dudley, literally means that we will also have to align our funding policies in line with that. But not only that, we also need to acknowledge the realities. We have HIV/Aids, as the hon Waters said, but it is neither correct to say we did not respond, nor that it is becoming costly to care for orphans.
If in the past an African child lost a parent, the brother, sister, nephew, niece or whoever was available would automatically take care of the child. No African child used to apply for a foster care grant, and hence the response that you feel that the system is overcrowded. We used to raise our dependants based on the fact that we are a community. But today it has been proven that we cannot. As more black children are accessing the foster care grant, surely it is meant to increase.
Another aspect that you need to understand is the whole issue of the participation of recipients of the grant. It is extremely important that we acknowledge the fact that unless the people who need the grant are able to have a say in how this grant is to be distributed, we can’t continue.
Poverty alleviation remains a challenge, and we have to acknowledge the high unemployment rate. The whole issue of moving away from disability as welfare and a medical model, to a social issue, also poses a lot of challenges. The acknowledgement of early childhood development, and the funding thereof, especially in those rural areas, are issues that this particular financing policy will respond to.
The acknowledgement of the Expanded Public Works Programme and its successful implementation will also go a long way to addressing the aspect of the funding of social grants.
Pensions can create a dependent society. But if we teach people how to fish and provide them with fish, we will definitely go a long way towards changing their lives. We acknowledge that government has not been very successful in that respect. But at the same time, measures have been put in place in an earnest attempt to respond to that.
The whole issue of learnerships will go a long way towards ensuring that young black people, who never had access to jobs and who never had access to the market during the time when the hon Waters’ party was in power, get work. [Interjections.] But also, the whole issue of the effectiveness and efficiency in relation to the review of the funding of provinces will also go a long way to responding to some of the realities that our people are faced with.
The establishment of the social security agency, surely hon Dudley, goes a long way to responding to the issues and the challenges faced by social development in relation to their social funding. It is really not correct for us to indicate that social funding or the financing policy on the table does not respond. I believe that it was developed in partnership with the nongovernmental organisations. They have indicated in partnership how they are prepared to commit themselves to caring and improving the quality of life of people. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Deputy Speaker and hon members, the legitimate object of government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done, when cannot do it all in their separate and individual capacities. Poverty alleviation is one example in which government has to play a role.
The introduction of the National Lottery was hailed by civil society organisations as a source through which they hoped to receive substantial funding, because government had curtailed all their fundraising abilities. The lottery funds are instead used to fund community development agencies to support income-generating projects. Nongovernmental organisations remain without sufficient funding. The centralisation of funding institutions leaves organisations on the ground with little or nothing. There have been reports of hospices, old age homes and other institutions struggling to make ends meet. Some have gone for weeks or even months on end without lights or water.
The passing of legislation always raises the hope that where will be improvement. The fanfare with which the National Development Agency Amendment Act was passed in 2003 and its mentioning by the President in his state of the nation address raised the hope that the social services would be well attended to. Yet civil society organisations are still struggling with problems as before because of lack of capacity, even though this is offered in the Act. Chinua Achebe was right when he said things fall apart if the centre cannot hold. Provinces where welfare organisations are based have yet to get the relevant staffing, yet people keep suffering.
Parliament is a place for making and passing legislation, but the object of such pieces of legislation is that they should be applied and not quoted as the best in the world while they are not being applied properly. We call on the Ministry of Social Development to ensure that development does take place so that social services should neither stagnate nor deteriorate. I thank you.
Mr N T GODI: Madam Deputy Speaker, from its inception the PAC envisioned a society that is democratically formed, nonracial in character and socialistic in content. These obviously imply a central role for the state in the economy and in the provision of social services. Social services are provided as a primary obligation of the popular state to its citizens and especially to mitigate for the vulnerable in society.
There have been sustained programmes on the part of the democratic state to extend social services to the majority who had been excluded under white domination. Much has been done and much more still needs to be done. The PAC is convinced that the state should remain the primary vehicle and guarantor of social service provision. The PAC remains steadfastly opposed to the privatisation of social services like water, electricity, etc. The PAC is concerned about the slow pace of bringing into effect the policy of a free water and electricity quota, which negatively affects the poor.
The provision of social security grants to the vulnerable has dramatically increased since 1994, meaning that more of our people have access to poverty alleviation means. Other government programmes to empower the poor and unemployed are hampered by the disintegrated and unco-ordinated programmes by various government departments. With the co-ordination and clustering of departmental programmes aimed at poverty alleviation, more of our people can be skilled and lifted out of absolute poverty. As I have said, a lot has been done but more still needs to be done. As we build a new and caring society we have to take care of the vulnerable in society, and government has a central role to play in this regard. I thank you.
Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Poverty alleviation and social development are our biggest challenges. All sectors are working hard at putting government policies and initiatives in place in order to deal with the above-mentioned challenge. And today, as in the past, we have many entities striving to attain the same with each one making its contribution to the wellbeing of all South Africans.
Unlike the apartheid state, our democratic South Africa does not depend on the voluntary sector for social services, but has taken the responsibility of socially developing South Africa upon itself.
However, there appears to be a number of hiccups preventing us from attaining this reality. We are still heavily dependent upon NGOs that are dedicated to such social services. Since abandoning the failed policy of social services financing of 1999 in 2000 we have, for years, not had a policy framework for such finance, which has yielded many negative effects for civil society organisations regarding finance, social workers and organisations.
The promised financial policy, which will come into effect in April 2005, appears to be a ray of hope in this social services funding chaos. There appears to be major issues surrounding the employment of social workers and their conditions of employment. It further appears that, even though the new policy addresses the salary issue, the remaining issues need to be addressed to ensure the efficiency of social services.
It is furthermore noted that the much sought after National Lottery does not contribute as much to civil society organisations as they have anticipated. The MF regards the National Development Agency as the most important key to sourcing funds for social services. However, with regard to the R116 million of the medium-term budget, civil society organisations criticise the NDA for not serving the sector adequately as a result of its lack of capacity. The MF feels that if the NDA and the IDT give a valid indication of the scope of their work, the Treasury will award the sector a larger budget.
The MF feels that for social development to be effectively inculcated, the issues pertaining to funds and resources need to be earnestly addressed. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Nkul T M MASUTHA: Manana Xipikara, rixaka hinkwaro na vayimeri va rixaka lava hi nga hlengeletana hinkwerhu namuntlha, ndzi nga se ya emahlweni ndzi lava ku hlamula swin’wana leswi nga vulavuriwa hi… [Minkavanyeto.] (Translation of Tsonga paragraph follows.)
[Mr T M MASUTHA: Madam Speaker, the nation at large and public representatives gathered in this House, before I continue I would like to respond to some statements that were made by . . . [Interjections.]]
That’s not my problem. You will have to find a solution to that.
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, Mr Masutha quite rightly points out that it is not necessarily his problem because he understands perfectly what he is saying. The trouble is that the rest of us can’t understand what he is saying because there is no interpretation. We certainly don’t want to make it difficult for him, but we hope that they will get themselves in order and sort this out.
Mr T M MASUTHA: I am speaking one of the 11 languages.
Mr M J ELLIS: But you are lucky. You told me the other day that you speak all 11 languages and I told you that I don’t.
Mr T M MASUTHA: What should I do about it?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Ellis, I think you need to improve on your two languages. Add two more languages. But, I am told that there is interpretation.
Mr T M MASUTHA: I can volunteer to give him lessons in Shangaan if he so wishes.[Laughter.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The interpretation is being sorted out. Please continue, Mr Masutha.
Nkul T M MASUTHA: Manana Xipikira, leswi ndzi lavaka ku sungula hi swona i ku hlamula swin’wana leswi nga vulavuriwa hi Manana Dudley na Tatana Waters eka mbulo wa vona eka mhaka leyi hi nga langutana na yona namunthla. Leswi humelelaka eka leswi va nga swi vulavula hi leswo, xo sungula, a va swi twisisi leswaku hi vulavula hi yini.
Namuntlha a hi vulavuli hi timhaka ta midende. Siku ri tata laha hi nga ta bula ha yona. Namuntlha hi vulavula hi ndlela leyi mfumo wu nga tiselaka mintirho ya minhlangano ya rixaka leyi pfuneka ku tisa nhluvuko na ku pfuneta rixaka leswaku ri lwa na timhaka ta nhlupheko, hi timali, swikili na sw. na sw. (Translation of Tsonga paragraphs follows.)
[Mr T M MASUTHA: I would like to start by responding to what Mrs Dudley and Mr Waters have said in relation to this debate. I think they do not understand the matter at hand. Perhaps we will set aside a day to discuss it.
Today’s debate has nothing to do with pensions. Today’s debate has to do with the way in which government can assist nongovernmental organisations in the welfare sector that is there to improve the quality of life of our people by fighting poverty, by way of providing funds, skills, etc.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, Mr Masutha. There is definitely no interpretation. Well, I understand what you are saying, but just for the benefit of other people, may we please . . .
Mr T M MASUTHA: Okay, under the circumstances, I will reluctantly speak in English.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Could you pause for a while. We do not want you to switch to English.
Mr T M MASUTHA: That’s fine. I can continue my speech in English in any case, in the interest of time.
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to make it quite clear to the hon speaker on the podium that we don’t bear a grudge against him in any way whatsoever. We appreciate his willingness to co-operate and speak English, but we are more concerned about the fact that the interpreters don’t appear to be doing their work. That is our concern.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no! I think it is also incorrect to say that they don’t want to do their work. We don’t know what challenges they are faced with. If the challenges they are faced with cannot be resolved, whatever they may be, we will then appeal to the hon member to use a language that is convenient to you and other people who don’t understand what he is saying. However, the majority of us are actually very comfortable with the language.
Mr Masutha, please take your seat whilst I get an indication from the Table staff as to what is now happening in this regard.
I can say anything in Xitsonga and make sure that . . . Are they okay now? We should be having an interpretation, and I think we should rather wait for it. [Interjections.] We can’t, because the next speaker will conclude the debate. Therefore, we have to wait so that Ms Dudley can respond to Mr Masutha if she wants or needs to.
Well, in other Parliaments we would have adjourned the sitting and made sure that there was interpretation at the next sitting. However, we are not actually doing that at the moment. We are just hoping that… [Interjections.] Okay, Mr Masutha is insisting on continuing in English.
Mr T M MASUTHA: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hon members, I hope I will get the benefit of the minutes that I’ve already lost.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Of course, definitely!
Mr T M MASUTHA: As I have said on several previous occasions, the pervasive poverty in our country is not an accident of history. It is the result of calculated, yet ill-conceived socioeconomic policies of the past. The policy framework introduced by the democratic government proposes a clear shift away from the welfarist approach of the past and away from treating vulnerable individuals and families from a perspective that such people must be saved and their pathologies corrected, as was the case with the welfare policies under the apartheid regime.
The new policy framework, as set out mainly in the 1997 White Paper on Social Welfare, places emphasis on a developmental role for the state, namely that the state must make available services that would enable individuals and communities to realise their full potential.
The deepening political crisis in South Africa in the middle of the 1970s provided the impetus for the emergence of grassroots organisations that mobilised around the everyday needs felt in communities otherwise rendered voiceless by the repressive, racist regime. Their work emphasised the need to address mass poverty and underdevelopment, as well as the need to integrate social development initiatives with national political activism.
Very specific measures were introduced in 1978, soon after the 1976 uprisings, to ensure that social service organisations serving black communities were apolitical and were controlled by a national fundraising regime that also ensured that those organisations that employed black social work professionals had access to lower levels of funding.
In the period between the unbanning of political organisations and the first democratic elections in 1994, the future of welfare policy in the new South Africa became the subject of intense debate. These deliberations culminated in the publication of the White Paper on Social Welfare in March 1997, which called on South Africans to participate in the development of an equitable, people-centred, democratic and appropriate social welfare system.
As part of the ANC-led government’s move towards providing more developmental social services, we began work on a new financing policy for welfare services in 1998 to ensure that such services and resources are appropriately distributed. A new policy document was published in 1999, but abandoned owing to several difficulties, as has already been mentioned.
In the meantime, the funding system that was being employed by the department still favoured well-developed, urban welfare organisations, and those communities most in need of social welfare services were still being disadvantaged. Civil society organisations also reported that the funding they received was completely inadequate for the work they were expected to do.
Furthermore, as a result of the serious dearth of qualified social workers in government departments, a lot of NGOs have been forced to provide conventional welfare services. This, obviously, also hampers the move towards providing more developmental services.
It is quite encouraging to note that the department has recently presented a new financing policy to Minmec, as was mentioned earlier, and that this policy will now be subject to public scrutiny. The new policy is aimed at guiding the country’s response to the financing of service providers in the social development sector to facilitate transformation and redirection of services and resources, and to ensure effective and efficient services to the poor and vulnerable sectors of society.
Another difficulty in the area of social services is the ability of service organisations to source funding from outside of government. When the National Lottery was introduced there was an expectation from civil society organisations that they would be able to receive substantial funding from this source as their other fundraising abilities had been curtailed. However, the National Lottery has provided a limited source of income, especially in relation to those smaller community-based organisations.
There must be a concerted effort on the side of the distributing agencies to ensure that they target the most needy organisations for support. This targeting must include making available information about the application procedures for the requirements attached to applications. It must further proactively link community-based organisations with resources such as financial training, bookkeeping, drafting business plans and, if necessary, subsidise those services and resources outside of the amounts allocated to the individual organisations. This may also include appointing staff members to do community extension work or actively link the information and services available through the National Lottery Distribution Fund to community development structures already in place.
The National Development Agency, the NDA, is intended to act as a key conduit for funding from the government of the Republic, foreign governments and other national and international donors for development work to be carried out by civil society organisations. In addition, it should contribute towards building the capacity of civil society organisations, to enable them to carry out development work effectively.
Civil society organisations assert that the NDA lacks the capacity to serve the sector adequately. With the passing of the National Development Agency Amendment Bill early in 2003, the expectation was raised that its location in the Department of Social Development would contribute to a more appropriate alignment of its priorities and that it would be easier to ensure that the work done by this funding agency complements other aspects of the development work managed through the Department of Social Development. However, this would require that the NDA ensures that it has the capacity in all the provinces to adequately reach out to communities so that it will not only be the established organisations in urban centres that will benefit from the available funding.
In conclusion, it becomes critical that the role and importance of NGOs providing welfare services be supported, so as to enable them to continue their good work in the fight against the poverty our community is currently faced with. I thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Masutha, thank you very much. One admires your skill to switch from one language to the other with ease. [Applause.] However, I also have to re-emphasise the point that it is unacceptable that our languages continue to be marginalised. [Applause.] We will, therefore, seek a report on what happened this afternoon, so that we all can happily use a language that we feel comfortable with. Thank you.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon Bogopane-Zulu, it is true that there are many people who are hoping that once the national agency gets up and running, it will relieve financial difficulties and have more of a focus on social services. But, of course, the reality is that the funds for social grants will move with the grants to the national agency and the major problem will be left behind, and that is the funding.
Obviously, if the guidelines for the funding of NGOs are not clear, then they can’t be clear if NGOs do not find them clear. So I think it is important that we just take that into consideration. Of course, NGOs have an important role to play and must not be undervalued. Their concerns must be taken seriously because, I believe, we do need to work together to find solutions.
Mr Masutha, thank you for speaking in English and we do stand amazed at your skills. The solution, of course, does not lie in state welfare, but in mobilising people to volunteer their services. Without a doubt, churches and faith-based organisations have the greatest potential to rise to the challenge. We must not underutilise our greatest resources and must ensure that legislation does not make it impossible for willing hands and willing hearts to present themselves as solutions to the many problems. What is stopping us from unblocking foster care and adoption procedures by involving reputable community and church organisations?
Of course, the ACDP agrees with Minister Manuel that the balance at this point between welfare and stimulatory spending on infrastructure is critical, and supports an increase in the level of investment spending in the economy.
Again, we must stress that our first priority must be to get people working so that they can escape the poverty dependency trap. As I have said, this means tax incentives for those in the private sector who are actually creating the work. Again, education and skills are also key factors and they offer the poor the most effective opportunity to find a way out of poverty.
The ACDP would like to thank you for this opportunity to put this subject on the table. We believe that it is of vital importance. We know that there is not one person in this House who doesn’t believe that this is a critical issue. I am sure that we all want to find solutions. I thank you. [Applause.]
RETRENCHMENT OF TELKOM WORKERS
(Subject for discussion)
Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to ask every member in this House what would they see as the saddest picture in South Africa at present. Every day on my way to Parliament I drive past people sitting on street corners, asking me with their eyes for a job - strong, healthy men and women. If you look closely you can see the despair and hopelessness in their eyes. They are fathers and mothers who must support their families. In their own eyes they are failing their families. What a sad picture.
Sir, if you could solve this problem and create more jobs, most of the other problems in this country would easily be solved. The ANC doesn’t want to solve it; that’s its reaction, I suppose. Dignity will return to these men and women and crime will come down.
I want the House to meet Piet Marais, a Telkom employee. At the end of this year he would have completed 18 years as a loyal employee of Telkom. In the past five years he was part of a team that installed more than two million new telephone lines – most of them in disadvantaged areas. He was proud of making a real contribution to bettering the lives of these people and to bettering South Africa. When he heard that Telkom made a profit of more than R4, 5 billion in the past financial year, he was very excited. He predicted that Telkom management would thank him as a worker in terms of this achievement and that a personnel bonus was a possibility.
What really happened? The next thing he heard was that he would be retrenched by Telkom. He has a wife and three children. All his efforts to get a new job have failed. Within months this family will be without money. Most probably Piet will join the men on the street corners who have despair in their eyes. He asks what this people’s contract to create jobs and fight poverty really means. From his perspective, the government creates poverty and fights jobs.
While he was struggling to survive, he read in the newspapers that the Chief Executive Officer of Telkom received a salary of R11 million during the same period. That is R30 000 a day. I repeat: R30 000 a day. Telkom directors were paid R60 million last year, one American director receiving over R15 million.
With a profit of more than R4 billion on the one hand, Telkom announced their intention to reduce their head count by 7 600 in the next three years. The CEO gets an increase and over 7 000 people lose their jobs. Is this what it’s all about? Is this what privatisation is all about? This can never be right. It is very wrong. Somebody must do something. Who? Maybe the government, or maybe the ANC. Why don’t they do something?
Until today there has been no reaction from these quarters. If I look around me today there are no Cabinet Ministers, no Deputy Ministers here for this important issue. [Interjections.] Well, sir, if it is so important, where are they? Why aren’t they here to discuss the issue? Only one would have been good enough.
The FF Plus protested and said it was wrong. Solidarity protested and said it was wrong. The Communications Workers’ Union protested and said it was wrong. On behalf of all those Telkom workers in trouble, I want to thank Mr Flip Buys, the General Secretary of Solidarity, and Mr Dirk Herman who is in the gallery today, as well as the President and the General Secretary of the Communications Workers’ Union, Mr Joe Chauke and Mr Kiti, also in the gallery, for their presence here and for their efforts.
The FF Plus went further and asked for today’s special debate on this issue. A solution must be found for the sake of Piet, the retrenched Telkom employee, and the other 7 600 Telkom employees. A solution is also necessary to save the whole concept of privatisation.
Telkom management says they act on instructions from their board of directors. Who is the main shareholder in Telkom? They surely can do something? The main shareholder in Telkom is the South African government. The government holds a 39% share in Telkom. Until now there has been no real reaction from government. Is it possible that the same government that promised in April to help create jobs now helps to destroy 7 600 jobs? Why will they allow it? I don’t know. But I do read in the newspapers of the possible sale by Thintana of its 15% stake in Telkom. Thintana is the government’s strategic equity partner in Telkom. The speculation is that current and former ANC heavyweights are interested in this stake. These include former Communications Minister Jay Naidoo and ANC spokesperson Smuts Ngonyama. Is that the reason why the ANC is quiet? Maybe. We shall have to watch this space to see. But if that is true, I can understand the problem. If your spokesperson is involved, who speaks on behalf of the ANC? They are very quiet.
Is daar ’n oplossing vir hierdie probleem? Ja, verskeie oplossings is reeds deur die vakbonde en kenners voorgestel. Ek sou graag elke oplossing wou bespreek as ek meer tyd gehad het. Is die probleem privatisering en is die VF Plus gekant teen privatisering? Nee, die VF Plus is ten gunste van privatisering. Maar as privatisering beteken dat een maatskappy daardeur ’n monopolie kry met nog staatsbeskerming daarby, dan is ons daarteen.
In ’n vrye ekonomie is die slegste wat jy kan kry ’n maatskappy wat ’n monopolie het en daarom sy kliënte of gebruikers kan ignoreer. Al wat slegter as dit is, is ’n staatsbeheerde maatskappy met ’n monopolie en staatsbeskerming. Dit is wat hier gebeur het. Dan kan die verbruikers nie eers na die staat toe gaan om hulle teen onbillike tariewe te beskerm nie. Vergelyk net vir ’n oomblik die monopolie van Telkom aan die een kant met die selfoonmaatskappye aan die ander kant wat in kompetisie met mekaar is. Volgens sommige navorsers is Telkom die duurste telekommunikasieverskaffer in die wêreld. Maar dan kry Telkom se grootbaas R30 000 ’n dag en die maatskappy dank meer as 7 000 werkers af.
Ek gaan Chris Hani, die vorige SAKP-leier, aanhaal ter wille van mnr Cronin, wat luister. Hani het in een van sy laaste onderhoude gesê, en ek haal hom aan: “Wat ek vrees, is dat die bevryders hulle as elitiste sal ontpop . . . en ’n Mercedes-Benz sal ry en hierdie land se hulpbronne sal gebruik . . . om in paleise te lewe en rykdom te vergader.” Dit was in
- (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Is there a solution to this problem? Yes, various solutions have already been suggested by the trade unions and experts. I should have liked to discuss every solution if I had more time. Is privatisation the problem, and is the FF Plus opposed to privatisation? No, the FF Plus is in favour of privatisation. But if privatisation means that one company gets a monopoly, and state protection on top of it, then we are opposed to it.
In a free economy, the worst that you can get is a company that has a monopoly and can therefore ignore its clients or consumers. The only thing worse than that is a state-controlled company with a monopoly and state protection. That is what has happened here. Then the consumers cannot even turn to the state for protection against unfair rates. Just compare for a moment Telkom’s monopoly, on the one hand, and the mutually competing cell phone companies, on the other. According to some researchers Telkom is the most expensive telecommunications service provider in the world. But then Telkom’s big boss gets R30 000 a day, and the company retrenches more than 7 000 workers.
For the benefit of Mr Cronin, who is listening, I will quote Chris Hani, former leader of the SACP. Hani said in one of his last interviews, and I quote: “What I fear is that the liberators will turn out to be elitists … and will drive a Mercedes Benz and will use this country’s resources … to reside in palaces and to gather wealth.” That was in 1992.]
Tony Ehrenreich from Cosatu wrote in the Cape Times last week that today many of our ANC leaders were more inclined to enjoy the trappings of wealth and luxury than to care about the needs of our people.
To have a debate on this issue and to believe that this alone will solve these problems is, unluckily, not enough. The President or Parliament must appoint a commission of inquiry into what exactly is going on at Telkom. It is that serious.
The FF Plus agrees with the unions that in the meantime all retrenchments must be postponed for 12 months and that a working group consisting of representatives of Telkom, the unions and external experts should analyse the problems and come forward with mutually acceptable solutions. Only then will people believe that we in this House are serious about addressing the problems of unemployment and that we really want to create jobs. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M R MOHLALOGA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the issue of unemployment continues to be a challenge that all of us have to face. All or most of us who come from previously disadvantaged communities are affected by this problem. We know of a brother or a sister who is unemployed. We know of our relatives who are unemployed. And most of us bear the responsibility of having to take care of extended families.
When we talk about unemployment, we are talking about something that we have direct experience of. When we talk about retrenchment, we speak about something we have direct experience of. It is not merely something abstract.
Any person who loses his or her job is one person too many, because it means that all who relied on that income will be without bread and the comforts that used to characterise their family life. Hence, as the ANC we have isolated this matter of unemployment as a challenge that as a country and as a people we have to confront and defeat. As we deal with this problem we have to understand its nature and complexities, otherwise we will resort to shortcuts, populism and tricks in our attempts to resolve it. That will not be sustainable neither will it be workable.
We have inherited an economy that was facing a train crash, an economy that was moribund and sterile. As a result even the parastatals that we have inherited were in the doldrums. They were running at huge losses year on year. These parastatals were firmly on their way to the grave, and as the ANC government we had to salvage them.
Since 1994 significant progress has been made to align the state- owned enterprises with the priorities of the agenda of our government. We have managed to reorient them towards playing a fundamental and strategic role in the ongoing development of our country, be it in transport, electricity, and so on. We will continue, of course, as part of this process, to revisit their mandates to ensure that they remain aligned to our development agenda. As you know inefficiencies still continue to hamper the optimal operation of these assets and we will continue to be seized with these matters moving forward.
One of the challenges that we face, as well, with regard to the restructuring of state assets is the issue of modernisation in sync with the global technological environment. The ICT industry is a high-end, technology-based industry with technological innovations that happen on a continuous basis. For instance, Telkom used to rely on copper to roll out lines, and now it does not. As in other sectors, the development of technology means fewer hands can do jobs that used to be done by even ten people.
However, the greatest emphasis in the process of restructuring of state assets has got to be on job retention and creation of new jobs. The ANC is clear about this, and we are not likely to retreat from this position. Hence we had to intervene when Transnet wanted to retrench 20 000 workers, without any plans for those that were to be affected. We will not allow any state-owned enterprise to go on a retrenchment crusade, because the issue of jobs and job creation and retention is at the heart of fighting poverty.
We are aware that in the process of modernisation and technological innovation there will always be redundancies. Our view is that as and when that happens there has to be retraining and creation of adequate safely nets for those workers who cannot secure continued employment. But we also need to make sure that our skills needs move in tandem with the needs of our economy and developments in our technology. Such safety nets must include effective retraining, counselling and assistance to find alternative employment. This is why we intervened in the case of Transnet, because at that time this was not the case.
In the instance of Telkom, what are we dealing with? Telkom presented its alternative strategies and approaches to avoid or minimise job losses and created alternative career options for its employees. The unions and Telkom have agreed on these alternatives to minimise job losses on 30 September this year. For heaven’s sake, I do not know what we are debating about then, because people who are legitimate representatives of the workers have agreed on this particular matter.
I hope in that sense we will not be setting a wrong precedent, because there is a bargaining chamber in Telkom and there is no crisis in that chamber that warrants and requires the attention of the public representatives. Of course, people can go out with mala fides and mislead the public. However, the facts will remain and truth will speak for itself.
In the first instance, the figure of 7 600 allegedly affected, as quoted by Solidarity, is incorrect. The number that will be affected by possible reductions is 4 181 in the next three years. As we have said, one job loss is one too many.
The unions and Telkom have agreed that these employees must be retrained or reskilled and redeployed within Telkom in the ICT sector and beyond. These affected workers will be handled by an agency for career opportunities for purposes of retraining and reskilling. This is an example that the private sector should also emulate, rather than throwing our people out into the streets.
The question is: In the context of this debate what can we do as public representatives where the unions and the employer agree? Our role cannot be to create confusion or seek to score political points, but rather to encourage that spirit and to respect our labour laws.
The unions and Telkom should continue to engage and evolve medium to long- term measures to deal with these particular challenges. But there is an important reason why we are debating this issue today. Telkom has been going through this process in the past seven years and never have we been asked to have this kind of a debate. And the question is, why now? This time around, because more white employees are affected, and because Mr Mulder has just recently discovered Piet Marais who has been affected, it is convenient for Solidarity to run helter-skelter for political shelter of its members. Hence we are having this debate today.
The telecommunication industry has seen major developments in the last 10 years. In addition to modernisation of the sector, people have access to mobile telephony, which provides a further challenge to the demand for fixed-line telephony. Interventions have also been made to introduce licences for underserviced areas, as well as the impeding second national operator. These developments and more provide a challenge to Telkom.
However, we as the ANC will neither rest nor lose concentration in ensuring that as part of our monitoring and evaluation of Telkom’s mandate we make sure that our people have access to basic means of communication so that we can close the digital gap. We will neither rest nor lose concentration in ensuring that our people receive affordable and quality basic means of communication, and Telkom must do so. We will neither rest nor lose concentration, as the ANC, in ensuring that state-owned enterprises play an important role in creating and sustaining jobs to further the objectives of eradicating poverty and unemployment; and Telkom must do so as well. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms M SMUTS: Madam Chair, I used to receive individual phone calls from individual workers when Telkom first began the process in 2000 to slash its workforce from 60 000 to 30 000.
There are few things worse in the world than losing your job, and at a time of such high unemployment, we do feel considerable sympathy for workers whose posts are lost and who have to decide now on taking a package, reskilling or on one of the creative options on which Telkom has quite regularly reported to MPs and which have our approval. As far as I am aware, I have to agree with the colleague who preceded me. The question is why now; why raise the matter now? I have a suspicion that it may be because I cried foul on Telkom’s profits in June, and Dr Mulder took notice.
Ek is bly om te sien dat hy die helfte van sy feite gekorrigeer het. Die wins was natuurlik nie R4,5 miljoen, soos sy mosie dit stel nie, maar R4,5 miljard. [I am glad to see that he has corrected half of his facts. The profits were, of course, not R4,5 million, as stated in his motion, but rather R4,5 billion.]
And, I would suggest respectfully that he has a look at the other figures he has cited, namely the more than 7 000 affected posts, which I too believe are 4 000. But, may we get back to the point. My answer to the workers then is still the answer now: Telkom is preparing for competition and that competition must provide alternative jobs. Indeed the three unions themselves in their report note that, ``it is only where there have been additional entrants into the market following privatisation that there has been some employment growth’’.
Now, Dr Mulder wants Parliament to take a stand on what government should do. The answer is that government should get fixed-line competition going. The solution is the SNO in the short-term, and may I say that we welcome developments with the SNO. Now it is beginning to look as if we may have one.
We are also invited today - and I am more interested in debating with the unions than with Dr Mulder - to discuss the unions’ report. It deals with two matters on which I think our position is quite well known. Firstly, there was the roll-out of more than 2,5 million lines under the Jay Naidoo deal, followed by the disconnection of more than 2 million of those lines when they were priced out of the market. The problem with rolling out networks is that they cost money, and in this case around R40 billion. They also need to be market responsive. Now, the Naidoo deal promised the investors that they would earn the returns later, but made the roll-out obligatory. Later, there was 2001 for 2002’s telephone tariff findings and the result was that our present Minister was locked into her predecessor’s undertaking and therefore blocked Icasa’s attempt at imposing the price cut formula. That is the second issue the unions raised.
En ek dink Solidariteit is vertroud met my argumente. [And I think Solidarity is familiar with my arguments.]
The Minister promised us earlier this year that she would not block reasonable regulatory rulings. I personally believe that we can look forward this year to more affordable rates. The September inflation figure is low and productivity, including reduced worker numbers, will be deducted from it.
I agree with our unions that the 10% fixed teledensity should be improved. I do, however, remind them that cell penetration is close to half the population. I agree with them also that proper market strategies and new pricing could increase volume and revenue. Unfortunately, I do not believe this is the path to growth.
A comparative study has been done of 10 Asian telecommunication companies, which shows that their profits come from cost cutting. Now, you will recall that when I accused Telkom of excessive profits - also on its fixed line sector where there was a profit of R6,5 billion - the answer was that only 4,6% came from revenue and the rest came from cost cutting. Now, the only Asian phone companies who delivered double-digit revenue did so on the back of their cellular operators, and I do not need to remind you how large a portion of Telkom’s value sits in its 50% of Vodacom.
Now, we need to take note. As if the cell threat is not enough, the traditional telecommunication companies are anxiously watching the advent of voice-over Internet protocol from new generation competitors. They are considered by experts to be on a burning oil rig platform facing death either by fire or by sharks. Their choices are considered to be rip and strip the legacy network, grow both that and an IP network, or cap the old network and grow IP.
Now, Telkom has some IP, and it may want to look at building more. Sentech has built an IP core. The IP networks are cheap and here is the crunch: They require only a small core of highly skilled workers. These are facts and it behoves us not to ignore them.
The unions have commissioned an economist’s report which you know really puts this matter beyond debate. That report points out that by comparison with Australia, Telkom’s labour expenses should be further reduced by R1, 2 billion.
Madam, the workers have told us that this is a battle between two ideas: shareholder fundamentalism and the stakeholder approach. The DA believes that it has a better idea and, that is, to expand the shareholder base to more South Africans by creating a people’s consortium, which should include stokvels, burial societies and ordinary South Africans, instead of seeing our former Minister Naidoo or our former DG, Andile Ngcaba, buying Thintana’s remaining 15% stake. We should expand Telkom’s already good employee share scheme. We cannot ignore the technology, but we can spread the benefits around. [Time expired.] [Applause.] Thank you.
Prince N E ZULU: Deputy Speaker, the IFP believes in consensus-seeking politics until an agreement is reached. Telkom and the unions operating there are engaged in this process. If this debate is held before the conclusion of the talks, we are obliged to accept it as a wake-up call for Telkom and the unions that Parliament is watching you.
It is economically misplaced for Telkom to create an impression that those who dwell in the first economy do so at the expense of those who belong to the second economy. The country’s economy needs to be managed and balanced properly for the benefit of all who make it and must be shared equitably among shareholders, stakeholders and wage earners. Salary inequalities tend to depress the real wages of workers thus shrinking the number of jobs the economy could be able to create.
As people’s representatives in this House, we are mindful of our responsibility to create jobs and fight poverty by way of enabling legislation. Telkom’s argument for retrenchments is based on redundant job positions caused by technological inventions and Telkom therefore offers voluntary packages to its more than 7 000 workers, we have been told this afternoon.
This kind of talk has for many years become the industrial scapegoat for retrenchments. The argument on the side of workers is that the technology we buy from foreign lands is man-made by hand. The more technology we buy from abroad the more jobs we create in those lands, and thus more jobs are lost to technology here at home. It is a complex scenario, which only the industrial sector can unravel. The retrenchment of so many workers will have adverse effects on families and dependent children, resulting in close to 38 000 hungry stomachs.
Telkom will tell us that a handsome cash package is prepared for them. Our counterargument will be that a once-off payment is no sustainable solution to livelihood if no other income is envisaged. Have these people been properly trained to manage their once-off package? How did Telkom prepare these people for the new world of joblessness and poverty they would be thrown into? Is Telkom in the fight to reverse the frontiers of poverty or are they in the fight to do the opposite?
Poverty-stricken society will soon find it hard to accommodate these people. Instead, many may be absorbed by crime syndicates, irrational gangsters or be caught up in a cycle of various diseases.
Telkom may further argue that these people will be redeployed and reskilled in other jobs. To that we say, suspend all retrenchments until the workers themselves express satisfaction with the new initiatives. Among the reskilling initiatives, co-operatives and credit unionism is again proposed for the rural and semi-urban people who may find some comfort that way.
The former Minister of Correctional Services defended that department many a time by stating that correctional services was not manufacturing the prison population, but society out there was responsible. I warn that one day society will refuse to be the dumping ground of retrenchees from any sector. Instead, they will demand that the stratospheric salaries paid to senior managers be shared in order to create more jobs for the country.
I thank you, mam. [Applause.]
Mr M DIKO: Madam Chair, the UDM condemns Telkom’s continued insistence on extensive job cuts. Telkom insists that it will proceed with its restructuring programme that will result in jobs being cut over the next three years. It is puzzling that Telkom’s chief executive can adopt such an intransigent position in the face of appeals by unions and government to the contrary. Are the unions and government no longer stakeholders in Telkom? Is Telkom now a force unto itself? This occurs despite the fact that Telkom operates very profitably as a monopoly by the grace of the government.
This puzzling behaviour is best explained by the fact that for many years government pursued a macroeconomic policy, with the compliance of Cosatu, of profits before the people. There may have recently been a shift away from this, but for years the accepted wind storm was of neoliberal economics and widespread retrenchments.
It is necessary for government to prove its commitment to job creation and the preservation of jobs by bringing Telkom to heel. Telkom is running a monopoly in which it milks the consumers for every cent it can, irrespective of inflation targets or actual delivery improvements. It makes massive profits and pays its executives handsomely. The message has to go out that this exploitative form of crony capitalism that exploits thousands of workers and countless more consumers to enrich a select few will not be tolerated. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr V C GORE: Madam Chair, there can be no debate about the fact that one of the greatest problems facing this country is poverty and unemployment. With more than 40% of South Africans without jobs, Telkom’s announcement that it intends to retrench 4 000 workers in two years and 7 600 workers over the next three years is almost unbelievable.
What makes the planned retrenchments even more unpalatable is the fact that Telkom’s CEO was paid an astronomical amount and the profit for the company for last year was just over R4, 5 billion. However, what I find most distressing is that the major shareholder in Telkom has kept far too quiet about the loss of income for these workers. The ANC-led government has, unfortunately, failed the workers and the voters of Telkom. The ANC-led government promised a better life for all, and committed itself to job creation and job retention - not job losses - at the Growth and Development Summit and during it’s election manifesto.
However, ladies and gentlemen, the entire backlash cannot be squarely placed at the doors of Telkom. Yes, they are being irresponsible in the current job environment, but they also have a fiduciary responsibility to maximise their profits for their shareholders. To this end, they have exceeded expectations.
I would like to argue, however, that there needs to be an honest and frank debate about the causes of these retrenchments, particularly the competitive environment or, more importantly, the lack thereof in which Telkom operates. Telkom has been under threat of competition from various sectors for a number of years now. Telkom, in anticipation of this competition, quite correctly needed to make their operations more streamlined and more efficient.
Telkom has evolved into a highly efficient and competitive operator which, unfortunately, has no competition. The delays in the roll-out of the second national operator and the continued, failed promises of convergence legislation have been a death knell for these more than 7 000 workers. Had there been competition and a clear, unambiguous legislative framework, these skilled people would have been absorbed into the SNO or other operators wanting to make inroads into 80% of South Africans who still do not have access to telephony. [Time expired.] I thank you.
Rev M S KHUMALO: Madam Chair, hon members, it is painful to be poor, it is terrible to be unemployed, and to be retrenched is worse. Ukuba mpofu kubuhlungu nokungabi namsebenzi kunzima. Ukuphelelwa umsebenzi kubi kakhulu.
In the context of huge profits and huge bonuses, it is hard to understand this contradiction of huge bonuses for the top-level employees and job losses for bottom-level employees at Telkom. The ACDP says to the government, as a shareholder, that it is not impossible to find a workable solution to retain those earmarked for retrenchment at Telkom.
The hon Dr Ivy Matsepe-Casaburri issued a statement on retrenchment at Telkom on 18 August, saying that job creation and job retention is at the centre of government’s programme. This wise statement did give expectation of a particular solution. While the rest of us are celebrating 10 years of democracy, others are faced with fears of retrenchment at Telkom. Their celebration is clouded by pain about the unknown and the frightening, increased level of unemployment.
As we celebrate gains of democracy, let us influence those who have power to retain their existing employees at Telkom and work hard to create more jobs. Some may say that the arrival of new technologies and digital age is one of the causes, because a company is enabled to produce the same results with fewer people. We, the ACDP, say that we need to embrace those new technologies and the digital age, and at the same time create more jobs and fight unemployment. [Time expired.] I thank you. Ngiyabonga.
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson and hon members, the ANC government ascended to power by, amongst other things, promising jobs, and that people would have a better life. But statistics in the Census 2001 report indicate that in 1994 an amount of 20 866 people had no jobs, and by March 2003 a whole 29 555 were jobless. Yet, Telkom, a company in which the government has a majority shareholding, comes up with a decision to have people out of jobs and swell the numbers of the unemployed. This cuts across the government’s Batho Pele policy, which spells out clearly that the interests of the ordinary people should rank supreme.
Telkom’s decision to lay off employees also cuts across the face of the job creation mandate that was confirmed through the resolutions of the Growth and Development Summit to the effect that proposals have to be sought to avoid job losses. This about-turn by Telkom cannot be accepted. Telkom made a profit of over R4 billion in the past financial year and the CEO’s salary was an obscene R11,1 million, an amount that is equal to the budget of some provincial departments.
With this type of success in business, what informs Telkom to have thousands of workers consigned to the streets? My understanding of the word “voluntary” is that the action should come from the affected party himself or herself. Retrenchments are not and will not be voluntary if a number is predetermined regarding who has to be ditched. We in the UCDP interpret this as benign dismissal.
Government and Telkom should know better from past experience that the so- called voluntary severance packages have left people destitute and helpless, as was noted in the Public Service way back in 1995. Dispensing with 7 600 workers has to be seen as reducing the quality of life of those people and their families.
We, in the UCDP, believe that Telkom should stop retrenchments while retaining those already in the system, and allow lateral attrition to take it’s course for the next five years. I thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, before we proceed, I would like to announce that the figure of “R4, 5 million” as it appears in Dr Mulder’s motion on the Order Paper is a misprint; it should read “R4,5 billion”. The error is regretted and the correct figure will appear in today’s minutes. Thank you.
Dr S E M PHEKO: Madam Chair, the PAC condemns in the strongest terms the planned retrenchment of Telkom workers, whether they are 7 600 or 4 800. The recommendations and report of the three trade unions at Telkom to address this serious matter must be favourably considered. The government, as the majority shareholder in Telkom, must prevent these retrenchments.
The country already suffers from a 42% unemployment rate. In 1999 Telkom employed 61 237 workers. This number has almost been halved to 31 624 this year. It is a conundrum of conundrums that the CEO of Telkom, Mr Sizwe Nxasana, has received an award of R11 million for good performance. This translates to a daily income of R30 410. Nxasana’s R11, 1 million could keep 183 people employed for one year at a salary of R5 000 per month. As if this trend to make South Africa the economically most unequal society in the world is not enough, an elite group of managers has been paid bonuses of up to R200 000 while workers have been paid a pittance of R1 800 to R5 000.
Telkom has rewarded its directors with bonuses worth a total of R48 million while their salaries were R60 million, in 2000. The continuing high rate of unemployment causing hunger, poverty and crime is a recipe for political instability and revolution in this country. [Time expired.] I thank you.
Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Chair. The MF notes that Telkom substantiates its intended retrenchment of 7 600 workers on the basis of its finances. It appears that the fixed-line industry is at the point of saturation as more and more people indulge in the use of mobile phones. Telkom has taken Vodacom and it’s reported that Vodacom contributes about 22% of Telkom revenue, and contributed 33% of the 2002 to 2003 operating profit. And even greater job losses are expected with the introduction of a second national operator.
It appears that between 1999 and 2003 Telkom reduced its employees from 61 237 to 33 800, and stands in a strong financial year-end profit of R4, 592 billion for the 2004 financial year. They appear to be doing quite well. What’s even more mind-boggling is that Telkom’s chief executive received an income of R11, 1 million for 2003 and the basic salary of R1,8 million. Further, its directors received R60 million, and its fixed-line staff totalled R6, 7 billion for the year-end 2004.
The MF, having looked at the statistics of the staff retrenchment profile, is a bit baffled. It is felt that we in South Africa are battling to attain poverty alleviation and to incorporate efficient social development. These retrenchments are going to contribute to poverty, unemployment and social breakdown.
Telkom is a state-owned enterprise and the MF feels that the exorbitant salaries of the chief executive officer and directors should be reduced in order to continue with the employment of these 7 600 workers. Telkom needs to be seriously looked at; it’s making a great profit.
Though the aim is to make a profit and seek the best way to do so, it must be acknowledged that we have much larger responsibilities to civil society in terms of poverty alleviation and social development, and one such is to create employment, not contribute to unemployment. By supporting these retrenchments, we are defeating our people. The MF says: ”Send the chief executive officer’s salary for a cut and keep the workers employed.” The MF does not support the retrenchment of 7 600 workers at Telkom. Thank you very much.
Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Chairperson, tradition has it that whenever a group of people has tasted the fruits of privilege, security and other benefits, it begins to find it more comfortable to act in a manner consistent with their acquired status, thereby accepting it as normal that it alone is entitled to privileges. Secondly, Azapo believes that advanced economies such as ours thrive on the marginalisation of unskilled workers. In other words, the advancement of technology, which advances economic growth, leads to the retrenchment of those whose skills are not on par with the advanced technology. I am saying this in order to draw the attention of this House to the logic of the capitalist class and it’s managers, as well as the consequences of living in a capitalist mode of production.
Telkom management seems to have proceeded from what I have stated, thereby forgetting that they are managing a parastatal that has been put into operation with the intention of using it’s profits to deal with our country’s unemployment, inequality and poverty. Indeed Azapo understands that Telkom should make profit. But if out of this profit a single person gets R11, 1 a year plus other benefits, let alone the other millions that end up in the hands of other managers, and ordinary workers have to be retrenched, then Azapo indeed calls for intervention by government.
On top of this, Telkom is reported to have made a profit of R4,5 billion. To this end, the statement made by the hon Minister of Finance and the Association of Black Securities and Investment Professionals to the effect… [Time expired.]
Ms N R MOKOTO: Madam Chairperson, hon members and members in the public gallery, I want to greet you all. Many of the opposition parties in this House and elsewhere fail to acknowledge that they contributed in a big way to the creation of a racially skewed, divided and impoverished South African economy in which black people were denied opportunities to interact meaningfully with the broader economy; except when they were considered as relevant material for cheap labour and indebted consumers of a white- dominated economy.
Many blacks in this country have gone through terrible periods of stress, oppression, detention, eviction, retrenchment, kidnapping, death and unfair dismissal whilst lots of white people enjoyed luxuries such as job reservation. Today our country continues to suffer from a skills scarcity because of these restrictions. Whilst the majority of you were basking in the sun reaping the benefits of apartheid, today your hypocrisy teaches you to abuse our hard-earned democracy and freedom. As a result, you find it very convenient and easy to point a finger at the ANC-led government and to blame it for not doing enough for its people. We want to assure you that regardless of the strategies you adopt, the ANC government will continue to push forward with its broader agenda for the transformation and deracialisation of the economy.
In consideration of the motion tabled, we as the ANC-led government have noted the continuing challenge of unemployment and recognise the fact that high unemployment continues to exacerbate poverty and other social problems; that the unemployment crisis continually affects women, young people and the rural poor; that there are many people in the informal sector and that many of these people are still underemployed; that there is a need to encourage our people to engage in self-initiated income- generating projects.
Many people resort to a mixed strategy for improving household incomes that combines hawking, subsistence farming, the state pension, income transfer from family members, and the provision of services at a very low level.
Having realised that, the ANC-led government has committed itself to building an economy that will encourage long-term growth and prosperity and that will contribute towards sustainable job creation and large-scale people empowerment. Economists have indicated that for the past 10 years our economy has grown by almost 3% per annum, thereby making it quite difficult to create a significant amount of jobs in a very short space of time.
Privatisation is a worldwide phenomenon, which has been proven time and again to increase economic efficiency. One of the most dramatic examples is that of the United Kingdom, which, in the 15 years from when privatisation began in earnest, recovered from being the sick man of Europe to one of the healthiest economies. An economy that was notorious for high unemployment is now operating at virtually full employment. The pound has been one of the strongest currencies in the world and the UK has never had it so good.
Chile, New Zealand and other countries have also wrought miracles. Even the once prosperous social democracies of Scandinavia are mending their dirigisme ways and reducing the role of the state in their economies.
Throughout its 10 years of existence, our government has always recognised that unemployment coupled with poverty remains one of the key challenges facing our young and fragile democracy and that it has the potential to reverse the gains of peaceful development in our country.
The successful Jobs Summit held in 1998 and the recent Growth and Development Summit held in 2003 have clearly outlined and refined the government’s comprehensive programme to tackle the challenges of unemployment and gross impoverishment in our society. The subsequent holding of these activities at the provincial level has further reinforced government’s level of privatisation, and has drawn massive support and commitment from the business sector and ordinary members of the public.
In view of all that, the life of an ordinary South African today is better than yesterday. More people are reaping the benefits of what started out as a risky economic intervention by our government. More people are more at liberty to interact with the economy as they wish, whether as consumers with choices or producers in a competitive environment.
In terms of the restructuring of the state assets with reference to the issues of the debate, it is very important to emphasise that state-owned enterprises, of which Telkom is one, represent entities and agencies that operate in various ways in our country and which will continue to play a fundamental and strategic role in the ongoing development of our country and our continent.
It is of note that these state-owned enterprises operate in all spheres of government, be it at the national, provincial or local government level. Significant progress has been made to align state-owned enterprises and agencies with the priorities of our developmental agenda. However, inefficiencies continue to hamper the optimal operation of those assets and, hence, equality and the quality of service they provide.
We are very cognisant of the challenges that can be brought about by restructuring state assets, especially as they relate to the following: quality; accessibility; affordability of services provided to communities, in particular the poor; the efficient operation of strategic sectors of our economy; employment and human resource development.
Fundamental to the process of restructuring state assets was ensuring that we leveraged the state potential and business capital to create employment and to foster a deracialised and transformed economy. It is very important that we continue to reiterate this position of the ANC-led government on issues of restructuring and transformation and to find a way to engage with their impact.
We will continually reaffirm our position on restructuring, particularly on the role of state-owned enterprises in the transformation, democratisation and deracialisation of the economy, which will ensure the transfer of assets to the private sector in order to strengthen our developmental agenda. We will continue to extend the National Framework Agreement to provincial and local government, ensuring that in the process of restructuring emphasis is placed on job retention, job creation, social planning and training.
The mandates of state-owned enterprises must also be revisited, evaluated and monitored more closely to ensure that the social and economic mandates remain aligned to our developmental agenda, which covers procurement, equity and transformation. Telkom, as a state-owned enterprise, despite its planned retrenchments, has at least responded to the sociodevelopmental mandate, as reflected in the RDP.
Key areas of consideration in the National Framework Agreement with state- owned enterprises include ensuring that job retention, employment creation, a social plan and training for workers really take place.
Apart from the many jobs it will shed, we are convinced that Telkom has been one of the first - and one of the few - state-owned enterprises to adhere to the National Framework Agreement, which prescribes that there must be a social plan and ultimately the creation of a safety net to cushion the effects of retrenchment on workers. The position of Government has always been that retrenchment will be the last resort, taken after all options have been explored and have proved to be failures.
In the instance in which restructuring has the potential for negative consequences on workers, we will expect the responsible institution, together with the relevant stakeholders, to adopt social plan solutions. The underlying approach is that restructuring should not be at the expense of workers, especially in state-owned enterprises. Where restructuring is likely to result in retrenchment, downgrading or transfer, a social plan must be negotiated with the unions so that it takes into account the interests of the workers.
Whilst it is important and necessary for government to chastise Telkom for the upcoming retrenchment of 7 600 staffers, we also have to acknowledge that Telkom has managed to create and open more job and empowerment opportunities in the ICT sector for the emerging BEE companies, the majority of which are its former employees and the unemployed.
As a result Telkom has achieved the top Empowerdex BEE ranking. This milestone goes hand in hand with the government’s legislation and policy on transformation, which require companies in the public and private sectors to comply with the scorecard on transformation. It is important to note that one job lost will be 10 more social burdens on government. May prosperity rule South Africa. I thank you, mam. [Applause.]
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Geagte Voorsitter, die twee sprekers na die agb leier van die VF Plus, Dr Pieter Mulder, het altwee vorendag gekom met beweringe dat hy nie sy feite korrek het nie. Dit is nogal interessant dat die DA en die ANC saam in hierdie speletjie was. Ek wil vir die agb lid van die ANC sê ons het dit gekontroleer. Daar was nie ’n ooreenkoms tussen Telkom en die vakbonde nie. [Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.]
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the two speakers who spoke after the hon leader of the FF Plus, Dr Pieter Mulder, have both come up with claims that he did not have the correct facts. It is rather interesting to note that the DA and the ANC were together in this game. I want to tell the hon member of the ANC that we have verified this. There was no agreement between Telkom and the trade unions.]
The only agreement there was was an agreement to disagree! That is the correct fact as far as that is concerned.
Die agb lid Dene Smuts – ek sal haar maar verskoon. Ek het gesien sy het ’n afjak gekry by hul Wes-Kaapse kongres, so sy is seker nog ’n bietjie gefrustreerd daaroor. So ek sal nie eers daarop reageer nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Die kern van hierdie debat is dat Telkom oor ’n tydperk van drie jaar 7 600 minder werkers gaan hê. En Telkom kom natuurlik en sê dis onwaar, want hy sê daar was natuurlik bedankings, daar is vrywillige skeidingspakkette en vroeë aftreepakkette. Die werklikheid is dat dit niks anders is as indirekte afdankings nie, want daar word ’n klimaat van werksonsekerheid geskep wat dan veroorsaak dat mense hul werk verloor. Dit is die werklikheid.
As ons gaan kyk na die regering van die dag, dan is hulle die spreekwoordelike drie apies, wat sê, “Ons sien niks, ons hoor niks, en ons sê niks nie”. Hulle is doodstil, sodat die vet katte net vetter kan word.
Ons het mos nou gehoor wie hierdie vet katte is. Dis mense wat almal senior lede van die ANC was. ’n Mens kan jouself die vraag afvra: As hulle hierdie groot bedrae geld gaan kry, hoeveel gaan hulle op die einde van die dag skenk aan die ANC, vir munisipale regeringsverkiesings volgende jaar? As ons gaan kyk na die opbrengste, dan sien ons dit is astronomies. Ek wil vandag vir u sê . . . (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The hon member Dene Smuts – I shall pardon her. I noticed that she was snubbed at their Western Cape conference, so she is probably still feeling a little frustrated about that. Therefore I shall not even respond. [Interjections.]
The crux of this debate is that Telkom will have 7 600 fewer workers over a period of three years. And, of course, Telkom states that this is not true, as there have of course been resignations, voluntary severance packages and early retirement packages. In reality this is nothing more than indirect dismissal, because a climate of job uncertainty is being created which in turn causes job losses. That is the reality.
If we take a look at the government of the day, then they are actually the proverbial three monkeys that say, “See no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil”. They remain absolutely silent so that the fat cats can become even fatter.
We have after all now heard who these fat cats are. They were all senior members of the ANC. One can ask oneself the question: If they are going to receive these large amounts of money, how much will they donate to the ANC at the end of the day for next year’s municipal government elections? If we look at the yield we see that it is astronomical. I want to tell you today . . .]
And I want to say to the hon members, you think that BEE stands for “black economic empowerment”. When you look at Telkom I want to assure you that BEE actually stands for “black and elite enrichment”. That is what it is! [Time expired.]
Debate concluded.
CONSIDERATION OF ELEVENTH TO FIFTEENTH REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
Mr F BEUKMAN: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you for the opportunity to introduce the five reports on behalf of Scopa this afternoon. In terms of Rule 206 of the National Assembly the Standing Committee on Public Accounts must consider, in terms of (a)(iii), any reports issued by the Auditor- General on the affairs of any executive organ of state, constitutional institution, or other public body and may, in terms of (b), report on any of those financial statements or reports to the Assembly.
Certain legislative provisions also impact upon the functioning of Scopa. One of these is the Public Finance Management Act, Act 1 of 1999, as amended. The object of the Act is to secure accountability and sound management of the revenue, expenditure, assets and liabilities of the institutions to which this Act applies. This Act, to the extent indicated in the Act, applies to departments, public entities listed in Schedule 2 and 3, constitutional institutions, Parliament and the provincial legislatures.
Chapter five deals with the responsibilities of accounting officers, and chapter six with accounting authorities for public entities. In chapter 11 of the PFMA provision is made for the Accounting Standards Board to set standards of generally recognised accounting practices for the annual financial statements of departments, public entities, constitutional institutions, municipalities, boards, companies, corporations, funds or other entities under the ownership or control of municipalities. That also includes Parliament and provincial legislatures.
The fourteenth report specifically refers to the Accounting Standards Board, which I referred to. Our committee commends the management of the board for the unqualified audit opinion expressed by the independent auditors. I trust that the future audit opinions shall be equally unqualified.
With regard to the eleventh report, which deals with the Media, Advertising, Printing, Packaging and Publishing Sector Education and Training Authority, Scopa commends the management of the MAPPP Seta for the unqualified audit opinion. However, there are certain issues that need attention. The committee noted that the Auditor-General could not place reliance on the internal audit work due to the following: no three year strategic plan was prepared in consultation with the audit committee; the scope of each audit was not indicated in the plan; reports detailing the performance against the plan were not submitted to the audit committee; and the internal audit function of which the purpose, authority and responsibility were not formally defined in the audit charter is contracted to a private firm.
Scopa therefore recommends that within two weeks of tabling this resolution, the MAPPP Seta should provide Parliament with the following: a copy of the investment policy for unspent funds which includes consideration of both risk and return; full details of the investment portfolio for unspent funds; and the document strategy on how it intends to utilise its unspent money for the intended purposes, while also ensuring value for money. Scopa will make a follow-up on the information requested as well as specific matters raised during the consideration of the next annual report.
With regard to the twelfth report, dealing with the Council for Geoscience, Scopa commends the management of the council for the unqualified audit opinion, although there are two issues that need further clarification. We therefore recommend that the motivation for the retention of the R123 million in cash and cash equivalents, as well as a copy of the investment policy for unspent funds, which includes consideration of both risk and return, should be made available to Parliament.
The thirteenth report deals with the Corporation for Public Deposits, which is an important institution. There are no matters that need further interaction and we therefore await the next report.
The last report, the fifteenth report, deals with the Insurance Sector Education and Training Authority. We commend the management of INSETA for the unqualified audit report, although there are three matters that need further attention. We believe that a copy of the investment policy for unspent funds, which includes consideration of both risk and return, full details of the investment portfolio of unspent funds, and a document strategy on how it intends to utilise its unspent money for the intended purposes while also ensuring value for money should be made available to Parliament.
Scopa will follow up on information requested as well as on specific matters during the next annual report.
In conclusion, effective financial management is a prerequisite for good governance, and we as the legislature should ensure that departments, public entities, constitutional institutions, and national government business enterprises should adhere to these principles. Thank you very much.
There was no debate.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that the reports be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Reports accordingly adopted.
The House adjourned at 16:53. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
THURSDAY, 28 OCTOBER 2004
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- Draft bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159
(1) National Small Business Amendment Bill, 2004, submitted by the
Minister of Trade and Industry on 27 October 2004. Referred to
the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry and the Select
Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs.
(2) Regulation of Constitutional Amendments Amendment Bill, 2004,
submitted by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional
Development on 27 October 2004. Referred to the Portfolio
Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Select
Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Minister for Safety and Security
Declaration of an Amnesty in terms of section 139(2)(a) of the Firearms
Control Act, 2000 (Act No 60 of 2000).
- The Minister of Trade and Industry
Report and Financial Statements of Khula Enterprise Finance Limited
2003-2004, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements for 2003-2004.
- The Minister of Arts and Culture
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Pan South African
Language Board (PANSALB) for 2003-2004, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP
166-2002].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the Natal Museum for 2003-
2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for 2003-2004.
- The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry
Employment Equity Report of the Department of Water Affairs and
Forestry in terms of section 22(2) ofthe Employment Equity Act, 1998
(Act No 55 of 1998).
FRIDAY, 29 OCTOBER 2004
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Speaker and the Chairperson
(a) Executive Summary of Report of the South African Members of the
Pan-African Parliament on the Second Ordinary Session of the Pan-
African Parliament
Insert "1029pap2"
(b) Report of the South African Members of the Pan-African
Parliament on the Second Ordinary Session of the Pan-African
Parliament
Insert "1029pap3"
- The Minister of Housing
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the National Home Builders
Registration Council for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004 [RP 169-
2004].
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the People's Housing
Partnership Trust for 2003-2004, including the Report of the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004.
- The Minister of Finance
Financial Statements of the Reconstruction and Development Programme
Fund for 2003-2004, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2003-2004. COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on Notice for Designation of United Kingdom in terms of section 2(4) of Cross Border Insolvency Act (for purposes of section 2(2)(a)), dated 26 October 2004:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Notice by the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development for Designation of the United Kingdom in terms of the Cross Border Insolvency Act, 2000 (Act No. 42 of 2000), recommends that the House, in terms section 2(4) of the Act, approve the said Notice.
Request to be considered.
MONDAY, 01 NOVEMBER 2004
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- Introduction of Bills
(1) The Minister of Trade and Industry
(i) National Small Business Amendment Bill [B 23 - 2004]
(National Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and
prior notice of its introduction published in Government
Gazette No 26926 of 25 October 2004.]
Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Trade
and Industry of the National Assembly, as well as referral to
the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms
of Joint Rule 160, on 2 November 2004.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three
parliamentary working days.
National Assembly
- Membership of Committees
(1) The following members of the National Assembly have been
appointed to the Committee mentioned, viz:
Ad Hoc Committee on Annual Report of Auditor-General:
African National Congress
Asiya, Mr S E
Fubbs, Ms J L
Gabela, Mr L S
Gumede, Mr D M
Hogan, Ms B A
Johnson, Mr M
Mabe, Ms L L
Smith, Mr V G
Tobias, Ms T V
Zita, Mr L
Democratic Alliance
Trent, Mr E W
Van Dyk, Dr S M
Inkatha Freedom Party
Woods, Dr G G
United Democratic Movement
Madikiza, Mr G T
Independent Democrats
Wang, Mr Y
African Christian Democratic Party
Durr, Mr K D S
Minority Front
Rajbally, Ms S
TUESDAY, 02 NOVEMBER 2004
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- Assent by President in respect of Bills
(1) Films and Publications Amendment Bill [B 61B - 2003] - Act No 18
of 2004 (assented to and signed by President on 28 October 2004);
and
(2) National Payment System Amendment Bill [B 14D - 2004] - Act No
22 of 2004 (assented to and signed by President on 28 October
2004).
- Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent
(1) Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 2 November
2004:
(i) Dental Technicians Amendment Bill [B 63 - 2003] (National
Assembly - sec 76)
National Assembly
- Messages from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly in respect of Bills passed by Council and transmitted to Assembly:
(1) Bill, as amended, passed by Council on 2 November 2004 and
transmitted for consideration of Council's amendments:
(i) Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Amendment Bill [B 72D -
2003] (National Assembly - sec 76)
The amended Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Health for a report and recommendations on the Council's
amendments.
(2) Bill passed by National Assembly on 2 November 2004 and
transmitted for concurrence:
(i) Sterilisation Amendment Bill [B 12B - 2004] (National
Council of Provinces - sec 76).
The Bill has been referred to the Portfolio Committee on Health of
the National Assembly.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on the Financial Services Ombud Schemes Bill [B 20 - 2004] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 25 October 2004:
The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the subject of the Financial Services Ombud Schemes Bill [B 20 - 2004] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 20A - 2004]. CREDA PLEASE INSERT - Insert No 2 from ATC1102e