TUESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2003 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:03.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr D K MALULEKE: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move:

That the House -

(1) discuss the threats by the ANC Youth League to let loose its guerrilla units on the Independent Electoral Commission and the citizens of the country;

(2) notes the irregular actions of an ANC Free State candidate who acted as both player and referee in that she was the IEC electoral officer for the Dihlabeng Municipality during the voter registration weekend.

The SPEAKER: Notice will be taken of that. Are there any other notices of motion? Hon members, will you all take your seats. It’s very difficult to know whether you want to give a notice of motion or not if you are all standing up, and that applies to Ministers. Not you, Minister Asmal, for a change.

          WINNER OF THE COMMUNITY BUILDER OF THE YEAR AWARD

                         (Draft Resolution)

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

 (1)    notes that -


     (a)     on 13 November 2003, in Sandton, Mama  Emelinah  Tembe  was
          chosen as the Community Builder of the Year; and


     (b)     Mama Tembe's selection is in recognition of her efforts  in
          initiating  the  Zamimpilo   Community   Market,   which   was
          established in 1979 with the aim of involving rural  women  in
          income-generating activities using natural resources;


 (2)    commends Mama Tembe's efforts and shares  the  pleasure  of  all
     South Africans at  seeing  the  market  becoming  a  major  tourist
     attraction  selling  homemade  traditional  artifacts   made   from
     natural materials such as reeds, grass and clay;


 (3)    expresses great joy at the fact  that  through  Mama  Tembe  the
     strength and heroism of rural women in particular -  who  bore  the
     brunt of apartheid exploitation  and  marginalisation  -  is  being
     acknowledged; and


 (4)    congratulates Mama Tembe on winning the Community Builder of the
     Year Award.


 Agreed to.

SA GOLFING TEAM WORLD CUP TOURNAMENT VICTORY AND GOOD WISHES FOR THE
                           PRESIDENT'S CUP

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House -

(1) congratulates the South African team of Trevor Immelman and Rory Sabbatini who won the golfing World Cup in South Carolina at the weekend to give South Africa its fifth victory in the World Cup tournament; and

(2) wishes the international golfing team, under the captaincy of Gary Player, every success against the American team in the President’s Cup golf competition which begins at the Fancourt Links course in George on Thursday.

Agreed to.

                 `TOWARDS A TEN-YEAR REVIEW' BOOKLET

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr M A TARR (ANC): Madam Speaker, this House takes note of a booklet entitled ``Towards a Ten-Year Review’’ produced and published by the ANC Government as a discussion document. Two overall questions were posed in this booklet, and these were: Has the Government achieved its policy objectives? Are these the appropriate objectives?

Comprehensive research was undertaken to answer these questions and over 200 sources, including research articles and publications, are quoted in the appendix. The main conclusion is that Government has adequately met its objectives and election promises. Advances made in the first decade far supersede any weaknesses but there are major challenges that still lie ahead. Issues such as employment, crime, HIV/Aids, education, etc are all highlighted and discussed.

The other outstanding feature of the booklet is that it gives a good insight into the ANC. There can be few other parties anywhere in the world that are prepared to release the results of a study that so openly and transparently deals with problems, success and disappointments of their first 10 years of governance.

Opposition parties should also realise that nearly all the problems that face us, as a country, are a direct result of a legacy of members who sit in that party. [Interjections.] That is a party that should accept some responsibility for many of the problems that face us and play a more constructive role in solving them. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

                 SOUTH AFRICA'S POSITION ON ZIMBABWE

                        (Member's Statement)

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, the South African Government’s biggest moral, political and strategic failure on Zimbabwe has been its refusal to stare evil in the face and call it by its name.

President Robert Mugabe continues to violate human rights and to suppress democracy. Meanwhile, five-and-a-half-million people are facing starvation in that country because of his policies. Throughout the year, President Mbeki gave assurances to world leaders that a solution to Zimbabwe’s problems was imminent. He reportedly promised US President George W Bush that President Mugabe would step down by December. We are less than two weeks away from that deadline and there has been no progress whatsoever. On Sunday, Makau Mutua, the Chair of the Kenya Human Rights Commission, said that, and I quote: ``Kenya should consider withdrawing its ambassador from Harare to protest Mugabe’s impermissible dictatorship.’’

Last week, the former President of Botswana, Sir Ketumile Masire, said that the African Union should take action to deal with Zimbabwe because, I quote: ``Its credibility would be determined by the way it holds its member states accountable to its principles.’’

Last month, at the conference of Liberal International in Dakar, Senegal, President Wade of Senegal told our gathering that President Mugabe was one of the last obstacles, but also a decisive obstacle, standing in the way of progress and democracy on the African continent.

The tide of dissent is building; South Africa risks being left behind. It is time for President Mbeki to come out openly against President Mugabe’s attendance at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Abuja, Nigeria, next month. Thank you. [Applause.]

                      WINE MAKING AND ADDITIVES

                        (Member's Statement)

Dr U ROOPNARAIN (IFP): Madam Speaker, South Africa is known around the world for producing some of the best wines. Wines and wine makers from our countries have won numerous awards and the industry has an excellent reputation. The reputation of the industry is now under a spotlight following accusations that a few wine makers are illegally using artificial additives in some white wines to manipulate the flavours.

A resident of Paarl, in the Western Cape, was found guilty of adding artificial sweeteners and water to wine. He was fined and lost his liquor licence. There are also four other cases pending for the same charges. The wine industry is a multibillion-rand export industry that is very important to South Africa. We need to take drastic steps to weed out the culprits involved in this illegal activity before it is too late and our good reputation and integrity are damaged. Thank you.

                       RACIST UTTERANCES BY DA

                        (Member's Statement)

Mrs R R JOEMAT (ANC): Madam Speaker, the Preamble to our Constitution reads thus:

We, the people of South Africa, Recognise the injustices of our past; Honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land; Respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity. We therefore, through our freely elected representatives, adopt this Constitution as the supreme law of the Republic …

The Constitution goes further and locates at the centre of our value system the Bill of Rights and many other noble values, including the protection and promotion of fundamental human rights, and commitment to healing the divisions of the past - all of which the people of South Africa have committed themselves to.

In light of the reported racist utterances by DA senior members, the DA therefore does not recognise the injustices of the past. It practices and promotes those injustices. They do not believe in our unity in diversity and they continue to view some sections of our communities as subhumans who must be referred to in derogatory terms. The DA does not work to heal the divisions of the past; it seeks to entrench them. The DA does not respect human rights; it still works to denigrate other people. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

                 AIDS PROGRAMME OF THE WESTERN CAPE

                        (Member's Statement)

Mnr C B HERANDIEN: Mev die Speaker, die Nuwe NP wil die Premier van die Wes- Kaap en leier van die Nuwe NP, mnr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, baie geluk wens met die suksesvolle onderhandeling om R455 miljoen van die VN se fonds teen vigs te kry vir die provinsie. Met hierdie stap het die Wes-Kaap weer eens bewys dat hy die leidende provinsie in Suid-Afrika is, veral wat betref die stryd teen MIV/vigs. Die Wes-Kaap het reeds die gevorderdste en doeltreffendste programme ingestel om die oordrag van dié siekte van moeder na kind te voorkom. Hierdie geld sal die provinsie in staat stel om antiretrovirale middels aan meer mense wat vigs het, beskikbaar te stel en sodoende duisende mense se lewens te red of hul lewensgehalte te verbeter. Die skenking is die grootste en belangrikste internasionale bydrae tot nog toe aan die Wes-Kaap. Dit dien ook as ‘n mosie van vertroue in die Wes- Kaapse regering se bestaande vigsprogram en die Nuwe NP is trots op die Premier en die provinsiale LUR vir gesondheid, wat in samewerking met die nasionale vigsraad, hierdie skenking bewerkstellig het. Verskeie ander internasionale organisasies is reeds in die Wes-Kaap betrokke in die stryd teen MIV/vigs. Die Nuwe NP doen ‘n beroep op ander provinsies om by die Wes- Kaap kers op te steek om hul eie programme teen MIV/vigs ook uit te brei, sodat dit net so suksesvol soos die Wes-Kaap s’n sal wees. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Mr C B HERANDIEN: Madam Speaker, the New NP wishes to congratulate the Premier of the Western Cape and the leader of the New NP, Mr Marthinus van Schalkwyk, with the successful negotiations to obtain R455 million from the UN’s funds to fight Aids in the province. With this step the Western Cape has once again shown that it is the leading province in South Africa, particularly concerning the fight against HIV/Aids. The Western Cape has already implemented the most advanced and efficient programme to prevent mother-to-child transmission of the disease. These funds will enable the province to make available antiretroviral medication to more people who have Aids and in so doing save thousands of lives or improve their quality of life. The donation is the largest and most significant international contribution to date to the Western Cape. It also serves as a vote of confidence in the Western Cape government’s existing Aids programme and the New NP is proud of the Premier and the MEC for health who, in co-operation with the National Aids Council, had made this donation possible. Several other international organisations are already involved in the fight against HIV/Aids in the Western Cape. The New NP calls upon the other provinces to join the Western Cape in expanding their own programmes against HIV/Aids to be just as successful as that of the Western Cape. [Applause.]]

                       REFORMATION CONFERENCE

                        (Member's Statement)

Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Madam Speaker, on 31 October 1517, Martin Luther posted his 95 theses in Wittenberg. By God’s grace, Luther’s courageous act of challenging the corruption and unbiblical practices of the medieval Catholic hierarchy launched the great Reformation.

Martin Luther said:

Unless I am convinced by Scripture or clear reasoning that I am in error, I cannot recant - for I am subject to the Scriptures I have quoted. My conscience is captive to the word of God. It is unsafe and dangerous to do anything against one’s conscience. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. So help me God.

To celebrate the Christian heritage of faith and freedom defended through the ages by reformers like John Wycliffe, John Hus, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox and William Tyndale, the Annual Reformation Conference was held in Cape Town in October.

As a result of the Reformation, the Bible is available in many languages. Scripture is recognised as the final authority and Christ alone as head of the church. We have religious freedom, liberty of conscience, free enterprise, the rule of law, separation of powers and constitutionally limited republics.

I proclaim this day, in the words of Martin Luther: If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, then I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Him. Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved; and to be steady on all the battle front, besides, is merely flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.

Thank you.

The SPEAKER: I am sorry. ANC Whips, will you get your members organised. Mr Gomomo, you rose earlier.

                ROLE OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr P J GOMOMO (ANC): Madam Speaker, the following are some of the powers and functions of the Public Service Commission, as set out in section 196(4) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa: to promote the values and principles set out in section 195, throughout the Public Service; to investigate, monitor and evaluate the organisation and administration, and the personnel practices of the Public Service; to propose measures to ensure effective and efficient performance within the Public Service; to promote in respect of its activities and the performance of its functions, including any finding and advice it may give, and to provide an evaluation of the extent to which values and principles set out in section 195 are complied with.

Given all these constitutional provisions, the commission still faces challenges of ensuring that, after doing its investigation, the measures proposed are implemented. We have been able to ensure that our commission is staffed by people with the necessary knowledge and expertise and is able to do proper and sound investigation. A challenge is therefore upon us, as Parliament, to ensure that the commission is given all the necessary support in carrying out its activities. The committee has satisfied itself that due consideration was given to all applicants in a fair and equitable manner, taking into cognisance the requirements stipulated in the advertisement and the broad strategic objective of our democratic Government of ensuring fairness. The committee therefore moves for the adoption of the report as per the ATC of 17 November.

The SPEAKER: Hon Gomomo, you are moving the adoption of a committee report. We are taking member’s statements; we will assume that that was a statement.

                   DISHONEST POLITICKING BY THE DA

                        (Member's Statement)

Dr P W A MULDER (VF): Agb Mevrou die Speaker, ons word op ‘n redelik gereelde basis in hierdie Huis deur die DA toegespreek oor moraliteit en korrupsie. Die DA is altyd baie gou om oneerlike politiek en korrupsie te veroordeel. Ons het dit vanmiddag weer gehoor. Verlede Donderdag is ons op die TV-nuus vergas deur ‘n groep amateurs, onder leiding van dr Tertius Delport. Sonder om te blik of te bloos, sit hulle baie tevrede daar en vertel vir die wêreld dat die hele VF-Plus struktuur in Limpopo met 50 takke, en 3 000 lede nogal, na die DA oorgeloop het. Dit sou die provinsiale leier, onderleier en jeugleier insluit. Só gulsig en gierig is die DA om die VF by te kom, dat geen stappe gedoen word om hierdie leuens en vals inligting te bevestig nie. Nie 50 takke en 3 000 lede het na die DA gegaan nie, maar ‘n halwe onwettige papiertak met drie familielede. [Tussenwerpsels.] Niemand in die posisie van provinsiale leier, onderleier of jeugleier het by die DA aangesluit nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die VF-Plus eis ‘n openbare verskoning van die DA. Dit is hierdie soort van oneerlike politiek wat deur die DA bedryf word wat alle politici benadeel en kiesers skepties maak oor die politiek. Die arme Afrikaners in die DA koukus is so oorywerig om hulle aan die DA leierskap te bewys, noudat die DA lyste saamgestel word, dat hul goeie oordeel hul hier erg in die steek gelaat het. Dit word elke dag duideliker dat die DA sleg is vir Suid-Afrika, want die DA is nie net visieloos nie, maar lei kiesers in ‘n doodloopstraat van sinlose konfrontasie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Sies, Tertius, dis ‘n skande! [Tussenwerpsels.] [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Dr P W A MULDER (VF): Hon Speaker, we are addressed on a regular basis in this House by the DA on morality and corruption. The DA is always very quick to condemn dishonest politics and corruption. We heard it again this afternoon.

Last Thursday we were entertained on TV news by a group of amateurs, under the leadership of Dr Tertius Delport. Without batting an eyelid, sitting there very smugly, they told the world that the entire FF-Plus structure in Limpopo, with its 50 branches and 3 000 members, crossed the floor to the DA. This would have included the provincial leader, deputy leader and youth leader. The DA is so hungry and keen to get at the FF that no steps were taken to verify these lies and false information. Fifty branches and 3 000 members did not join the DA, but only half an illegal branch that exists on paper with three family members. [Interjections.] Nobody in the position of provincial leader, deputy leader or youth leader joined the DA. [Interjections.]

The FF-Plus demands a public apology from the DA. It is this kind of dishonest politics practised by the DA that harms politicians and makes voters sceptical about politics. The poor Afrikaners in the DA caucus are so over-eager to prove themselves to the DA leadership, now that the DA lists are being compiled, that their good judgment failed them dismally in this case.

Every day it becomes clearer that the DA is bad for South Africa, because the DA is not only without vision, it is also leading voters up a dead-end of meaningless confrontation. [Interjections.] Shame on you, Tertius, it is a disgrace! [Interjections.] [Applause.]]

                   LAND OWNERSHIP IN SOUTH AFRICA
                        (Member's Statement)

Dr S E M PHEKO (PAC): Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the PAC to remind the House that the issue of land in our country stubbornly remains the most defining political and development issue of the day. It is also one of the most contentious issues because it defines and exposes the property relations of this country. It is clear that those who own land also own the means of production, control the economy and influence the politics of our country mainly adversely. Unemployment will not be resolved until the power relations of the ownership of land are fundamentally redressed.

It is unacceptable to the PAC and the landless majority of our country that the majority in this country should own less land and be evicted daily from land while the minority owns land beyond its population figures.

Claiming land after June 1913 is no land reform, it is national suicide. Section 25(7) of the Constitution must be amended. It is the only way that land dispossession of the majority can be reversed and the national cake of our country equitably shared. Unemployment in the country has reached unprecedented low levels. Unemployed people earn no wages. They spend and save nothing. An economy with high levels of unemployment is a stalled economy. Land is one of the sources of employment creation. Unemployment can be drastically reduced … [Time expired.]

              RESTRUCTURING OF HIGHER EDUCATION SECTOR

                        (Member's Statement)

Prof B TUROK (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC shares the optimism expressed by all stakeholders in the higher education system with regard to the restructuring and renaming of our higher education sector. Although daunting, we believe that since there is no magic formula to transform an apartheid relic of this enormity, the foundation for a rational and seamless higher education system has been laid.

Within the context of our oppressive, exploitative and divided past, and the need for urgent transformation to address that past in higher education, the demands for equity, increased access, human resource development, improved quality and the building of our intellectual capacity remain paramount. We urge all stakeholders in higher education to contribute to the effort of making our academic assets fit the challenges facing us as a developing country in the 21st century.

We commend the ANC-led Government on its continued commitment to the rapid transformation of these institutions and have no doubt that the benefits of this project will be felt by learners and society long into the future. Thank you.

                         MOTOR VEHICLE THEFT

                        (Member's Statement)

Adv P S SWART (DA): Mevrou die Speaker, Nasionale Kommissaris Selebi paradeer graag by ons grensposte. Hy impliseer dat hy ons bekommernis deel oor die hoë vlak van motordiefstal in Suid-Afrika, maar hy misluk jammerlik om oplossings te bring. Daar word 300 motors per dag gesteel, meer as 100 000 per jaar, en dit is sonder die 5 000 verdere kapings per jaar. Die konserwatiewe vervangingskade is ten minste R15 miljard per jaar vir die slagoffers, maar vir die agb Minister Manuel, ironies, beteken dit ten minste R2,1 miljard addisionele BTW. Hierdie geforseerde bydrae tot die staatskas is niks anders as ‘n vorm van dubbele belasting, sonder enige toegevoegde waarde nie.

Word die agb Minister gekonfronteer, beweer hy maklik dat versekeringsbedrog die grootste deel van hierdie nie-misdade uitmaak, maar hy is nooit in staat om hierdie bewerings te steun met statistiek nie. Dis blote bewering, of ‘n gemaklike verskoning vir die Regering se onvermoë om wesenlik op te tree.

Ek wil vandag vir die agb Minister sê die mense van ons land is vuisvoos beroof en besteel en hulle blameer nie die polisie nie, maar die Regering. Dit moet groot en helder waarskuwingsligte laat flikker. Die DA, as die verkose amptelike opposisie van hierdie onsuksesvolle Regering, sê hard en duidelik: genoeg is genoeg. Julle regeer op jul laaste geleende tyd. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Adv P S SWART (DA): Madam Speaker, National Commissioner Selebi eagerly parades at our border posts. He implies that he shares our concern for the high rate of vehicle theft in South Africa, but he fails miserably to offer solutions. Every day 300 cars are stolen, more than 100 000 per annum, and that excludes the further 5 000 hijackings per annum. The conservative replacement cost for victims is at least R15 billion per annum, but, ironically, for the hon Minister Manuel it means not less than R2,1 billion additional VAT. These forced contributions to the treasury is nothing more than a form of double taxation, without any value added.

When the hon Minister is confronted, he easily alleges that insurance fraud makes out the biggest part of these non-crimes, but he is never able to support these allegations with statistics. It is mere allegation, or an easy excuse for the Government’s inability to take positive action.

Today I want to tell the hon Minister that the people of our country have been severely robbed and defrauded, and they do not blame the police, just the Government. This should send out big and clear warning signals. The DA, as the official opposition elect of this unsuccessful Government, is saying loud and clear: enough is enough. You are governing on the last of your borrowed time.] [Interjections.]

            CALL FOR INVESTIGATION INTO SUSPECTS' ESCAPE

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr E T FERREIRA (IFP): Madam Speaker, the actions of four police officers who were on duty at the time of the escape of seven armed and highly dangerous suspects from police cells is to be investigated. The prisoners, wanted for crimes such as murder and hijacking, escaped from Littleton police station after they overpowered a police constable who was then disarmed, bound, gagged and locked inside a cell. The escapees then overpowered three other policemen and fled with three guns.

In terms of regulations, the policeman should have checked on the prisoners in the company of at least one other police officer. Incidents such as these cause people to lose faith in our justice system and nullify all the hard work done by the police officers who arrested the suspects in the first place.

We sincerely hope that the investigation sheds some light on the escape of the suspects in order to prevent similar incidents from occurring in the future.

                STATE VISIT BY PRESIDENT OF BRASILIA

                        (Member's Statement) Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI (ANC):  Madam  Speaker,  coming  from  a  working  class background myself, may I take this  opportunity  to  salute  President  Liuz Ignatio "Lula" da Silva, a hero of the working class.  The  state  visit  of the President of Brasilia to South Africa is the first  of  its  kind.  This visit marks a significant step in the consolidation of the warm and  cordial relations that already exist between our respective countries.

Brazil has the largest population of people of African origin outside Africa. Brazil and South Africa have identified each other as strategic partners in the international arena owing to the shared viewpoint on a number of crucial international issues. Brazil’s new foreign policy orientation is driven by domestic demands that are very much in line with or similar to those of South Africa. Brazil shares South Africa’s vision regarding multilateralism as the only viable approach to addressing global issues.

We share a commitment to respecting the rule of international law, the strengthening of the United Nations including the UN Security Council and prioritising the use of diplomacy as the means to maintaining international peace and security in accordance with the Charter of the UN.

The ties between our two countries have already been tested at the recent ministerial meeting of the World Trade Organisation in Cancun. President Lula’s visit to South Africa, coming close on the heels of President Mbeki’s visit to India, laid the basis for the creation of a network of strategic allies who can work together for a better world for all the people of the nation. [Time expired.][Applause.]

                      APPOINTMENT OF SABC BOARD

                        (Member's Statement)

Mrs ANNA VAN WYK (New NP): Madam Speaker, the preamble of the Broadcasting Act of 1999 speaks of the diverse nature of South Africa, ie that the broadcasting system is controlled and managed by persons or groups from a diverse range of communities and must reflect the multilingual and diverse nature of South Africa.

It is required that 12 nonexecutive members of the SABC Board be appointed by the President on the advice of the National Assembly. I call on our colleagues in the ANC to adhere to the objects of the Act and to follow the most sensible and conciliatory spirit of the law when weighing their decision. It is not too late to revise that list.

Section 4(c) states that members of the board must, when viewed collectively, represent a broad cross-section of the population of the Republic. This is not the case. The list, as it now stands, does not include a single Afrikaans-speaking person. Neither does it include anyone with expertise in general broadcasting product. The New NP, regrettably, cannot support this list. Parliament must fulfil its mandate to the people of the Republic of South Africa.

I exhort the House to advise the President correctly before he applies his mind. Further, in section 13(4)(b), these persons must be committed to fairness, freedom of expression, the right of the public to be informed, openness and accountability on the part of those holding public office. It is a matter of public record that not everybody among the persons now nominated is so committed. Thank you. [Applause.]

              RESTRUCTURING OF HIGHER EDUCATION SYSTEM

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the hon member for raising the issue of the reconstruction and transformation of the higher education system. All I wish to add is simply to say that part of the reason for this major reconstruction effort is to improve the quality of research, teaching and community involvement, which are the trinity of the purposes of higher education. It is very important that the quality is improved, because we have, for example, a wastage rate of first-year students that is too large. The improvement rate of those who finish their degrees is very low.

And these are the fundamental issues that cost the state about R1,4 billion every year. But the fundamental fact is that we should not treat our young people in this cursory fashion. It is vital that we draw on the capacity and the talent of all our young people and, therefore, regard higher education as the pinnacle of the education system. There is no doubt about this.

The World Bank was wrong when they emphasised basic education and it is South Africa who got the World Bank to change its position on that. So the World Bank was wrong, because the higher education system provides not only more trained people, such as our intellectuals, who are particularly important for the development and education of black intellectuals in South Africa, and our scientists and researchers, but also provides that critical scrutiny into public life which I think we must encourage. For example, if the whole question of academic freedom means anything, it must be in the capacity to look into the soul of the nation and to write about it.

The other factor is simply that, emerging from higher education, there are hundreds of students for whom there are no jobs of any kind, because there is no rational planning in higher education. We have hundreds of B Comm degrees and scores and scores of diplomas in public administration, but there are no jobs for that. This arose because universities competed with each other and now we want to remove that competition and have co-operative governance. Thank you very much for this opportunity to add to the hon member’s statement.

                      ESCAPE OF FOUR CRIMINALS

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am responding to two statements which were made in the House.

The first one I want to respond to relates to the escape of the four criminals from our holding cells. And I do want to agree that we cannot tolerate occasions of this kind in South Africa. We have, in fact, instituted an inquiry to determine whether this happened as a result of laxity on the part of any police official. And, of course, we will deal with whoever has been found to be in default of their responsibility in regard to this matter.

When the hon Paul Swart stood up to speak, I was very happy, because I thought that he had been reinstated as the spokesperson for safety and security by the DA. But it immediately became abundantly clear to me that they were hauling him in simply as a courier of the paucity of understanding of security matters within the DA. And from what he says, one can understand why some of the police officials who perhaps were sympathetic to the opposition are now walking away from them. He stands here and he says: “I am not blaming the police for weaknesses in the programme to combat crime. I am blaming Government.” Now that shows you how poor their understanding of this matter is. I do not want to spend more time responding to him, except to say that I really hope the time will come when these hon members will raise the debate about crime combating and prevention in South Africa to a respectable level. Otherwise, the issues that were raised here in the House do not actually merit a reasonable response. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, just on a point of order: In the course of member’s statements, the hon member Van Wyk made a statement pertaining to the issue of the SABC Board. That matter, as we understand it, is on the Order Paper for tomorrow. We ask that you consider whether this is not going against the Rule of Anticipation contained in Rule 68 and perhaps make a ruling accordingly at a later stage?

The SPEAKER: I can take that on board. Thank you very much.

                     REVENUE LAWS AMENDMENT BILL The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.  Hon  members,  you  will recall the introduction of the Exchange Control and Taxation Laws  Amendment Bill earlier this year. We raised issues  related  to  amnesty  and  various rate adjustments that  were  announced  on  Budget  Day.  The  Revenue  Laws Amendment Bill deals with the remaining tax proposals and  related  matters. It, therefore, proposes amendments to a wide variety of tax  laws.  Many  of these amendments are textual or technical in nature, so I  will  concentrate on some of the more significant aspects.

Firstly, there is the removing of tax on certain dividend repatriation. The current system of taxation of foreign dividends has the unintended consequence of discouraging the repatriation of dividends. This follows from the fact that, where a dividend is taxable, a taxpayer with a meaningful interest in a company may use his or her influence to delay the declaration of dividends by that company. It is therefore proposed that dividends be exempted from taxation where a taxpayer holds more than 25% of the ordinary shares in the company declaring the dividend.

This measure is underpinned by the existing anti-avoidance provisions of the controlled foreign company rules. Additional provisions are also proposed to prevent the round-tripping of deductible expenditure for exempt foreign dividends. As members will recall, this was a significant problem prior to the introduction of the taxation of foreign dividends.

Moving closer to home, a number of our larger cities suffer from urban decay. This means that valuable infrastructure that has been built up in the past is underutilised and is, in some cases, decaying along with the areas it services.

The reversal of this trend where it occurs is a substantial challenge for both local government and national Government. In order to build on national Government’s contribution in addressing the challenge, an accelerated depreciation allowance is proposed for urban development zones. This allowance is granted to taxpayers refurbishing existing buildings or constructing new buildings within demarcated urban development zones. The criteria for demarcating these zones have been designed to ensure that areas in decline are targeted and to ensure that local government and national Government’s efforts reinforce one another. Strong reporting requirements have been included for taxpayers, municipalities and SARS, so that the progress of this initiative can be evaluated by Parliament on a regular basis.

Of course urban development is not just a matter for Government and the private sector. Public benefit organisations are also involved. It is therefore proposed that a number of public benefit activities in the area of land and housing be added to the list of activities granted tax- deductible status. In addition, it is proposed that a substantial number of activities in the areas of welfare and humanitarian health care, education and development activities be added to the list of activities granted tax- deductible status. This adds up to a substantial expansion of the list. Thirdly, in respect of exchange control amnesty, as I announced in my Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement last Wednesday, the closing date for the amnesty is to be extended to 29 February next year. The legislative amendments to effect this extension are included in the Bill. They are accompanied by a small number of amendments that seek to clarify provisions of the legislation that are being misinterpreted in practice and to extend the amnesty.

Fourthly, we have the ring-fencing of losses from certain suspect trades. Madam Speaker, it is an unfortunate fact that certain taxpayers attempt to disguise their private or hobby expenses as trading activities. There is no reason why the general body of taxpayers should subsidise the inevitable losses, so a balanced set of rules are proposed to identify and limit these losses. It is important to note that the losses are limited and not lost. This ensures that those losses are available to be set off against future income from trade in those cases where, despite numerous escape hatches, the rules are triggered by legitimate trade. Taxpayers engaged in legitimate trade will welcome a number of stimulus measures that were announced on Budget Day, but, without going into detail, these include the indefinite extension of the accelerated depreciation for manufacturing, a system of comprehensive business asset reinvestment relief, the modernisation of the research and development provisions in the Income Tax Act, and a double deduction of up to R20 000 of start-up expenses for small business corporations.

Similarly, other developments include the dispute resolutions, and these now also include the provisions in the Customs and Excise Act.

In conclusion, Madam Speaker, the Bill contains various other significant measures such as those relating to the Customs and Excise Act, but in the interest of time I have focused only on the more important ones.

Madam Speaker and hon members, I hereby table the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill, 2003. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister. The Bill is referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance for consideration and report.

      ELECTION OF MEMBERS TO MEDIATION COMMITTEE ON LIQUOR BILL

                           (Announcement)

The SPEAKER: Hon members, on 13 November, the House refused to pass the Liquor Bill as amended by the National Council of Provinces. The Bill passed by the National Assembly and the amended Bill passed by the National Council of Provinces are therefore referred to the Mediation Committee. In terms of section 78 of the Constitution, read with Assembly Rule 225 and 226, nine members of the National Assembly are to be elected by the House to serve on the Mediation Committee.

According to the formula contained in the Rules, six members should be from the ANC and one each from the DA, the IFP, and the New National Party. These members are to be nominated by the respective parties. Parties may also nominate alternate members for election. I will therefore now call on the ANC to nominate its six members.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, we wish to propose the following six members from the African National Congress: Ms Elizabeth Thabethe, Dr Rob Davies, Ms Connie September, Mr Lewele Modisenyane, Ms Elizabeth Ngaleka and Mr Sam Louw. We so propose, thank you.

The SPEAKER: Was that six? I may have missed someone. Sorry. Are there any objections to those names? No objections. Agreed to. ANC, do you wish to nominate alternate members?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Yes, Madam Speaker, we wish to do so.

The SPEAKER: Please proceed.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We put forward the names of Mr Fezile Bhengu, Ms Bongi Maria Ntuli, Mr Langa Zita, Mr Moses Kgwele, Ms Farida Mahomed, and Mr Obed Bapela. Thank you.

The SPEAKER: Are there any objections to the alternate members? No objections. It’s agreed to. I now call upon the Democratic Alliance to nominate its member.

Mr I J PRETORIUS: Agb Speaker, ek stel Mnr Mark Lowe voor, en as alternatiewe lid Mnr J L Theron. [Hon Speaker, I propose Mr Mark Lowe, and Mr J L Theron as alternative.]

The SPEAKER: Are there any objections to the member and the alternate member? No objections. It’s been agreed to. I now call upon the IFP to nominate its member.

Mrs L R MBUYAZI: Madam Speaker, the IFP wishes to nominate the name of Dr Usha Roopnarain as the main member, and the alternate member, Mr B C Ngiba.

The SPEAKER: Are there any objections? No objections. That has been agreed to. The New NP, I now call upon you to nominate your members.

Mr D M BAKKER: Speaker, we nominate Dr R T Rhoda as the member, and Dr S J Gous as the alternative.

The SPEAKER: Are there any objections? There are no objections. The Mediation Committee, the National Assembly component, has now been nominated, and the committee will now proceed with its work.

CONSIDERATION OF RECOMMENDATIONS FOR FILLING OF VACANCIES IN PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION

Mr P J GOMOMO: Madam Speaker, the following are some of the powers and functions of the Public Service Commission, as set out in section 196(4) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa:

(1) to promote the values and principles set out in section 195 throughout the Public Service; (2) to investigate, monitor and evaluate the organisation and administration, and the personnel practices, of the Public Service;

(3) to propose measures to ensure effective and efficient performance within the Public Service;

(4) to promote respect for its activities and the performance of its functions, including any finding and advice it may give; and,

(5) to provide an evaluation of the extent to which the values and principles set out in section 195 are complied with.

Given all these constitutional provisions, the commission still faces the challenge of ensuring that the measures which are proposed, after it has done its investigation, are implemented. We have been able to ensure that our commission is staffed by people with the necessary knowledge and expertise, and that it is able to do proper and sound investigation. The challenge is therefore for us, as Parliament, to ensure that the commission is given all the necessary support in carrying out its activities.

The committee has satisfied itself that due consideration was given to all applicants in a fair and equitable manner, taking into cognisance the requirements stipulated in the advertisements and the broad strategic objective of the democratic Government of ensuring fairness. The committee, therefore, moves the adoption of the report as per the ATC of 17 November 2003, because it believes that these are the people who will ensure that there is efficiency in the Public Service. I thank you. [Applause.]

Question put: that the recommendation by the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration of Mrs N Mxakato-Diseko, Mrs K Mokgalong, Mr J H Ernstzen, Dr E G Bain and Prof S S Sangweni for appointment to the Public Service Commission be approved.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, clearly there is approval. However, section 196 of the Constitution requires that the National Assembly approve the appointment of the commissioners with the supporting vote of the majority of members. We will, therefore, need to record the names of the members supporting the recommendation.

The bells will thus be rung for five minutes.

The House divided:

AYES - 208: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Bapela, O; Bell, B G; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Booi, M S; Botha, A J; Cachalia, I M; Camerer, S M; Carrim, Y I; Cassim, M F; Chauke, H P; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cwele, S C; Daniels, N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Durand, J; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Ferreira, E T; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gibson, D H M; Gogotya, N J; Gomomo, P J; Goosen, A D; Green, L M; Groenewald, P J; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B; Hlengwa, W M; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L M; Koornhof, G W; Koornhof, N J van R; Kotwal, Z; Lamani, N E; Landers, L T; Lockey, D; Louw, S K; Lowe, C M; Lyle, A G; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Madasa, Z L; Madikiza, G T; Magazi, M N; Mahlangu- Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N; Maimane, D S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Maluleke-Hlaneki, C J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbuyazi, L R; McIntosh, G B D; Mentor, M P; Meruti, V; Meshoe, K R J; Middleton, N S; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Moatshe, M S; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpontshane, A M; Mthembu, B; Mulder, P W A; Mutsila, I; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngema, M V; Ngubane, H; Ngwenya, M L; Nhleko, N P; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nqakula, C; Nqodi, S B; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Odendaal, W A; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Opperman, S E; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Pretorius, I J; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Redcliffe, C R; Robertsen, M O; Roopnarain, U; Routledge, N C; Rwexana, S P; Saaiman, P W; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schalkwyk, P J; Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Tarr, M A; Thabethe, E; Theron, J L; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsheole, N M; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, Annelize; Van Wyk, J F; Van Wyk, N; Van den Heever, R P Z; Waters, M; Woods, G G; Xingwana, L M T; Zita, L; Zondo, R P.

Recommendation approved in terms of section 196 of the Constitution.

   DEBATE ON REPORT OF JOINT RULES COMMITTEE ON IMPLEMENTATION OF
RECOMMENDATIONS OF JOINT SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Madam Speaker and hon members, the Report on Oversight and Accountability adopted by the Joint Rules Committee in March this year represents the beginning of an attempt by Parliament to introspect, to take stock of how far we have come in meeting our constitutional obligations that we may as a Parliament better serve the people we represent.

This process began through the initiative of the Speaker who in 1999 …

The SPEAKER: Hon member, would you pause? Those who are leaving would you please do so in silence and not cause disruption. Please proceed.

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: … appointed senior academics to conduct research and produce a trilogy of reports: the first one dealing with powers and privileges, the second dealing with delegated legislation and the third dealing with oversight and accountability. These three reports were referred to three different ad hoc subcommittees and today it is my privilege to introduce the findings and, most importantly, the recommendations of the Ad Hoc Joint Subcommittee on Oversight and Accountability.

Our approach in the committee has been a practical one. As members who operate and interact with the institution on a daily basis, we have a fairly good idea of the areas of shortcomings. We dealt with issues, no doubt as had originally been intended, in a manner that contributes to the transformation and construction of the institution of Parliament as part of the systematic and ongoing process of entrenching democracy in our country.

At this juncture I must point out that the annexure, as it appears in today’s ATC, only contains three of the 10 recommendations that we originally made and I propose to deal with all of those recommendations in my speech today.

To begin with, the question arises: What is oversight and what is accountability? Many people do not realise that Parliament not only has a lawmaking function but a vested interest in how these laws are implemented. As a new and young Parliament, those of us who are actors in shaping and modelling this august body have a special responsibility to build a strong foundation upon which a dynamic institution may evolve. In engaging our oversight activities we have a dual task - one that involves understanding and constantly developing our constitutional powers and functions, as well as performing our tasks to the best of our ability.

In evidence presented to the subcommittee we found no uniform practice and understanding in this regard. Some committees function in a manner that allows little or no delineation between themselves and their focus departments. On the other extreme, some operate in a more confrontational manner, while still others cut a fine and healthy balance between these two extremes. In this regard it is our view that the development of a sound and common understanding of our oversight role is critical. Our recommendation is for a constitutional landscaping document to be developed specifically for MPs that traces the conception and development of the concepts of oversight, accountability, transparency and responsiveness within the South African context. We also propose, as a second step in this development of a common understanding, that a series of discussions and debates be held between MPs mutually and later between MPs and other stakeholders.

Given that ours is a constitutional state the discourse must of necessity have a legal dimension. But in addition, it is our belief that the discourse must have regard to the political debate that informed our constitutional design. Key constitutional negotiators should be invited to document their thoughts and arguments for both the sake of ensuring a national repository of information that will guide present and future members of Parliament, as well as for the sake of posterity.

The two Houses of Parliament operate independently and concurrently with each other. Each House has a unique orientation with specific oversight objectives. While there are areas of exclusive competence, there are equally areas of concurrency inasmuch as there may be room for facilitating joint oversight work from time to time. We propose a co-operative ethic whereby there is no duplication, but a mutually complementary role played by each House through its relevant committee. We make recommendations for the construction of a formal communication mechanism between the committees of the two Houses and suggest that guidelines be prepared to facilitate the joint planning, whenever necessary, of oversight work.

The co-ordination and structuring of work between the two Houses is critical for the optimal functioning of Parliament. This co-ordinating role at a functional level will necessarily involve the realignment of the committee section.

The next matter concerns the very, very important issue of capacity and resources to committees. My colleague, the hon Mr Jeffery will deal with this matter in greater detail during his input. Suffice it to say at this stage that the most effective oversight machinery is indeed the portfolio and select committee systems. From what began as elaborate rubber-stamping vehicles of the old apartheid government, our committees in Parliament have succeeded, in a relatively short space of time, in coming into their own. Through these committees our country has all but pushed back the very frontiers of the apartheid barricade of discriminatory legislation. But there’s not only that. We have in this Parliament succeeded in passing legislation that has become model law for the continent and internationally. This is, and should be, a source of immense pride for all hon members, particularly when regard is given to the relatively sparse resources at the disposal of individual committees and committee chairs in particular.

Our view is that building the institutional capabilities of Parliament is a process that will extend well into the next few parliamentary terms. We propose a comprehensive vision and mission process that will have as its goal improving the in-house capabilities of Parliament in all its dimensions - whether its committees, constituency offices or the administrative support structures.

Arguably the most important challenge that Parliament has to face, in light of its oversight responsibilities, is the construction of an effective research and monitoring capacity that allows for the independent acquisition of information regarding implementation of policy and the exercise of public function. Add to that the restructuring of the committee system where a record-keeping system and a tracking mechanism has to be introduced. While suggesting these reforms, we are constantly mindful of the fact that these changes will have to be gradually phased in. We therefore recommend that each new and successive Parliament assesses and reviews its oversight capabilities at least once during its five-year life span.

Outside of on-site inspections and visits to provinces, committees by and large, in performing their oversight functions, rely on information supplied by the very departments of state that they are meant to oversee. It is in this context that we propose the development of an in-house mechanism capable of independently acquiring information. A proposal is made in the report that we tabled that in the medium-term Parliament considers developing more effective links with bodies engaged in oversight work of their own. A prime example in this regard would be the Public Service Commission. In this regard the relationship between Parliament and all Chapter 9 bodies will need to be considered. We propose a consultative process through which the sensitive issue of independence may be canvassed and worked through to hopefully result in a mutually beneficial relationship with each of the institutions supporting democracy. Again my colleague, the hon Mr Jeffery will deal in more depth with this issue.

The development of an institutional memory for Parliament is an indispensable element in building Parliament’s oversight capacity. It is our view that, while our focus has necessarily been on the areas that require interventions and fine-tuning, there are some excellent examples of oversight work being conducted and enormous experience gained over these 10 years, which should not be lost to Parliament. Much of this expertise rests with committees and chairpersons of committees.

In this regard we recommend that Parliament takes steps to develop a best practice guide drawn from the best practices of those committees and experiences of those chairpersons who perform outstanding work. In a direct response to the constitutional provisions, we make two recommendations. Firstly, section 55(2) requires the National Assembly to maintain exercise of, inter alia, any organ of state. In the Sarfu judgment, the Constitutional Court determined that, in deciding whether a body is a public body or not, regard should be had to its function and not merely the functionary itself. This means that over and above the large number of public bodies that may be classified as organs of state, even private bodies performing a public function could fall within the definition of organ of state. This area represents a huge challenge for Parliament. Indeed, when one considers the very many bodies that we are meant to hold accountable as MPs, we begin to appreciate that we have only begun to scratch the surface insofar as our constitutional obligations are concerned.

We therefore recommend, in this regard, a three-pronged approach beginning with an audit and classification of these bodies, the development of a policy specific to this constitutional clause and the consideration of basic legislation dealing with those organs of state directly accountable to Parliament.

The second area in which we respond directly to a constitutional obligation is the area of the Budget. We note in our report that Parliament’s four main constitutional obligations and functions are linked. The drafting of legislation, conducting of oversight, the passing of the Budget as well as its amendment are all linked. In our report we consider four main principles for the more active engagement by Parliament in the budgetary process. Firstly, Parliament should not in any way assume any of the inherent functions of the executive or, to put it differently, Parliament should recognise that the drafting of a national Budget is an executive function.

Secondly, Parliament, like other stakeholders, should develop an influencing role for itself during the compilation of the Budget. The greater part of Parliament’s influence should be focused on the compilation stage, and amendments to the Budget should be affected only in extreme and extraordinary contingencies. Examples of these could be a significant incongruence between spending and delivery targets, where policy and spending priorities do not match, or in the event of extreme departmental waste or inefficiencies. Parliament we believe will, by using these principles, be able to develop a stronger influencing role in the development of the country’s Budget. And legislation, to meet the obligation in section 77(2) of the Constitution, we believe should be drafted accordingly.

Under the title, ``Fine-tuning and Developing Oversight Mechanisms’’, we suggest that policy allowing more time for oversight work be adopted and that oversight work essentially becomes more mainstream parliamentary work.

Finally, the committee considered the issue of an accountability standards Act, which was originally favoured by the consultants who drafted the initial report. In this regard, two views prevailed in the subcommittee and both options are to be found in our report. These recommendations are not mutually exclusive and may be married under the first option.

Option one proposes that Parliament first develop its oversight processes and conventions. These are to be captured in a manual to be updated from time to time to clarify issues and elicit certainty on matters such as how entities are expected to proceed in accounting to Parliament. Parliament will at a future time be able to assess whether it is required for such procedures and practices to be captured in legislation.

The second option proposes that legislation be adopted as a twin act complementing the PFMA. Such an Act would regulate the accountability of state departments in relation to policy matters as opposed to spending matters, which is what the PFMA does. This is still a matter that is before the Joint Rules Committee and the decision in this regard as to the preferred option is still outstanding.

The report tabled today outlines the detailed proposals we have made to implement these recommendations, and without going through them, let me take this opportunity to refer members to them as they happily are correctly captured in the ATC.

Lastly, let me take the liberty of thanking the people who rarely get thanked in this House. A big thank you to Ms Nomfundo Mpuntsha-Ntintili, Ms Viveca Abrahams and Mr Benny Nonyane, who provided secretarial services for us, as well as Mr Keith Woodman, who assisted a great deal with the compilation of the report, Mr Kamal Mansura for his helpfulness and guidance, Mr Hahndiek for his expertise that he shared, and thank you to all the members who helped in creating this report. And thank you especially for the spirit in which we were able to work. I cannot leave this podium without thanking Mr Cassim especially, whose enthusiasm in this regard was most palpable. Thank you, Sir. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Ms M SMUTS: During the ad hoc committee’s deliberations on Prof Hugh Corder’s report on oversight and accountability, his colleague at UCT, Prof Christina Murray, together with Leah Nazinc, published the following findings in their survey entitled Building Representative Democracy. They found that South African legislatures have not been particularly active as overseers of Government action.

Politicians, they said, have a much poorer understanding of oversight than of their law-making responsibility. There is also little agreement among members as to what oversight means in practice and how it should be carried out. This finding was borne out by Parliament’s Mr Kasper Hahndiek. There is, he told the sub-committee, no consistent understanding and approach to the exercising of the oversight role.

The degree of co-operation between committees and departments varies. In some cases, it is hostile and in some committees there is a close relationship; sometimes so close that the necessary separation of powers is not maintained.

This being the case, this debate offers an opportunity to refresh hon members’ memories as to our role in the scheme of things. The South African Constitution entrenches a separation of powers between the executive, the legislative and the judicial branches with checks and balances to ensure accountability, responsiveness and openness.

Members of the executive, with the exception of the President, remain MPs, as in parliamentary systems everywhere, but their duty to account to Parliament has been explicitly constitutionalised and so has the duty of Parliament, our duty, to hold them to account.

Here is the constitutional section 42(3) that describes our role:

The National Assembly is elected to represent the people,

Not the parties'', butthe people’’.

and to ensure government by the people under the Constitution. It does this by choosing the President, by providing a national forum for public consideration of issues, by passing legislation and by scrutinising and overseeing executive action.

Section 85 is the one that describes how the executive works. It says that the executive authority of the Republic vests in the President, and he exercises his authority together with his Cabinet by, for example, implementing the legislation that we produce here, except where a law or the Constitution provides otherwise. He exercises his authority with his Cabinet by developing and implementing national policy; and here, by the way, adherence to the Constitution applies just as much as when the executive is implementing laws. Policy on HIV-Aids, for example, has to be constitutional.

The President co-ordinates the functions of state departments and administrations and so forth, and for all of this, the Cabinet is collectively and individually accountable to us and must report to us. Now, to make it quite clear that we must hold the executive to account, section 55(2) requires that we must provide for mechanisms to ensure that the executive organs of state are accountable and that we maintain oversight, and that is the subject matter of the report that is serving before us.

Parliament is a separate, a distinct and a very powerful arm of state, or is supposed to be and used to be. We have watched with rising concern how ANC MPs, during the life of this Parliament, have begun to take their lead and, it must be said, sometimes their instruction from their party rather than representing the people, as section 42 requires.

The most current example is the selection of an SABC Board, with which I will deal tomorrow. If that is the most current example, then the arms deal remains the most egregious. As Prof Murray said, it is equally serious that Cabinet members and the MECs often do not understand or do not support the oversight responsibility of the legislatures. Now, in my view, the hon Minister of Sport would be a good example of one who does not understand, judging from what I read from time to time in an equally confused press, about his attendance act and his participation in portfolio committee meetings. I’ve even seen the committee being described as a Government committee, for heaven’s sake!

Those members of the executive who do not support the oversight function are many, judging from the sad history of Scopa and also of Pregs Govender’s quality of life committee. She tried to hold the executive to account for its constitutional duties towards women suffering from HIV- Aids, but she was effectively rendered powerless by the shortcomings of the current accountability mechanisms.

The fact is that it took Constitutional Court action by civil society even to trigger the still incipient process of ARV roll-out, and that is a sad reflection on Parliament.

Now, in these circumstances, it is necessary to strengthen Parliament’s powers and its resolve and to set out clearly what it can and must do. In our view, Prof Corder cut right to the heart of the matter when he recommended an accountability standards Act.

There are, as my friend the hon Fatima Chohan-Khota has said, two options and two approaches to this proposal in our final sub-committee report. The Joint Rules Committee will decide which option to choose after work by the proposed projects component or, indeed, whether a third option is desirable.

Just to recap, the majority party on the sub-committee felt that a stringent legal framework would be premature, that it could stifle the growth of an oversight culture and introduce self-imposed limitations. For our part, we feel that the oversight culture may itself be stifled, if not strangled at birth, and that an eventual law which does no more than concretise and codify progressively meeker best practice may not, indeed, meet the constitutional imperatives.

It’s little wonder in the current atmosphere that our report itself, at times, became contested terrain. We do welcome the fact that the ANC has ultimately not dismissed the idea of an accountability law and we welcome the task team, but we do fear that an ongoing round of workshops and landscaping projects may just go around and around in a new Parliament, and that the parameters that we need may never be set.

We propose that the accountability Act be enacted as a companion piece to the Public Finance Management Act, as has been said here. No comparable instrument exists in regard to policy and government programmes. That new law should deal with issues like the doctrine of ministerial responsibility. That is a nineteenth-century doctrine which has been described as having only fading utility in modern states. The fact is that the Directors-General, nowadays, take responsibility for policy matters and outcomes that used to be dealt with by the political heads of departments, yet the old convention puts them beyond scrutiny and beyond criticism. In South Africa, under President Mbeki, moreover, the DGs are appointed directly by the President. In the case of a department like Home Affairs, this has created enormous difficulties for the Minister.

Now, we need a law that formalises the relationship between Ministers and Directors-General, and clearly allocates the responsibility and the accountability. Once this has been done, we should deal also with the fact that ministerial responsibility in South Africa is not merely a constitutional convention, but has the force of law.

We do not, as the DA, suggest that the courts should be able to force Ministers to resign, but Parliament should, indeed, be able to bring political pressure to bear, which might result in the ultimate political sanction. If that sounds shocking, bear in mind that, after all, Parliament can remove the President himself from office, under section 89.

I ask hon members to ask themselves the question: Should we, as Parliament, not also be able to force out of office Ministers of Health, for example, who fail their constitutional duties? I leave these thoughts with you. Madam Speaker, we look forward to the task team’s work under, I hope, your personal command.

Dr G G WOODS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I will first make a very general observation and then perhaps move on to one or two specific issues which we would like to ponder.

The chairperson of the subcommittee, the oversight and accountability subcommittee, I think, is quite correct that there is much to recognise, much to be proud of regarding the oversight performance from a number of our committees. I think a number of committees are chaired by very proficient chairpersons and have members who are diligent and have an understanding of what the oversight responsibilities are.

But, on the other hand, I think, the hon Smuts is also correct, namely, that quality of oversight and performance across the mechanisms of Parliament is not uniform. There are committees that are fairly inept, where there are weak chairpersons, where there are unenthusiastic members, where members obviously do not do their homework and, let me say, where perhaps opposition parties are not always as ferocious and insightful as they should be.

So, we have a mixed performance of oversight in this Parliament, in this National Assembly, and I think Professor Corder in many respects in his initial report early in 1999 referred to some of these weaknesses and some of the potential for these weaknesses to exacerbate themselves over time. And I think he alluded very astutely to many of the actions we could take to try and correct, to try and strengthen, through the Rules, through our understandings, our general approach and general practices of oversight. It is sad and very disappointing from our party’s point of view that there appears to be a lack of urgency, a lack of will by the Rules Committee and its subcommittee to really take these issues of oversight seriously and to expedite them.

If we consider that consultants were employed early in 1999 and produced their poor report midway through 1999, we now are almost five years down the road, and where have we got to? We have got to today where in the ATC we see something that says the implementation plan of the subcommittee of the Rules Committee and some resolutions. And if we look closely at what this implementation plan says, and what these resolutions say, firstly, you will see that it is not an implementation plan at all. There is no plan with substance of what we are going to do regarding oversight. And that applies to the resolutions as well.

Now, one can look at every paragraph of what has been recommended here. All it is saying is that we had five years of process; we are now going on to the next processes. And of course we know that there is an election next year and that is just going to delay matters even further.

So, the will is simply not there. We passed very complex pieces of legislation in this Parliament, far more complex than simply the type of Rules that will govern Parliament, Rules for which there is an international body of experience, which is well documented. The practices are well-articulated. Our Constitution is nothing exceptional in this regard. There are experiences there which we could put in place very, very quickly. And they would be the right practices.

But we are not doing this, and as I say, we can deal with very complex pieces of legislation very efficiently. But when it comes to a simple matter of rules where the either/or options for us are very plain to see, as Corder pointed out five years ago, all we come up with today is another bunch of resolutions which is: “Let us compile another document. Let us form another committee. Let us have another debate.”

So, where are we really going with this? And is the National Assembly - and Parliament, should I say - serious about really taking on its responsibilities of oversight?

That was my general point. I wanted to make two specific points. The one is on Chapter 9 bodies. There Corder quite clearly said Chapter 9 bodies, section 181 of the Constitution, are accountable to the National Assembly. We know section 55 says we have to have mechanisms, so all we have to do is set up a mechanism. The only option, in Corder’s point of view, was the mechanism exclusive, a mechanism for each Chapter 9 body. Would we have one committee for all of them or would we try to filter them through the most relevant portfolio committees?

I mean, it is a very simple choice. There are no other options. Five years down the road we have got no further. I must inform the committee that we are sitting in a subcommittee at the moment, writing up the Public Audit Bill for the Auditor-General.

And we will be recommending to the National Assembly that it really gets its act together on this particular issue and sets up a committee that is going to allow the Auditor-General - a very important Chapter 9 body whom we all rely on, because he goes across all departments and all financial transactions are governed - to make sure that this oversight body is put in place for the Auditor-General.

So, hopefully, with some urging from a subcommittee and some legislation that will come before this committee next week, together with a report, we might try and put some pressure on the situation.

The only other specific issue I want to mention here - and it also refers back to Corder, and in fact the hon Smuts referred to it - is the accounting standards Act which he proposed. As the hon Smuts has said, he sees it in direct relation to the Public Finance Management Act.

I think it is a great shame that the Public Finance Management Act, which is based on very clear accountability arrangements, is not being introduced in the way it should be. It is a very soft version of the Act which is compromising the accountability arrangements we intended, and compromising our ability for oversight, simply because those accountability arrangements insisted on more information, more relevant information, not just about finances, but about delivery.

So, each committee here should be getting far better reports about what is actually happening in each and every department and other Government institutions. That is not happening the way the PFMA has been enacted. I would hope, in conclusion, that most of all these committees and processes and debates will give more serious issue to a proper implementation of the PFMA and consideration to the accounting standards Act that is being proposed. Thank you.

Ms S D MOTUBATSE-HOUNKPATIN: Deputy Speaker, hon members, some of the principles of democracy are consultation, debate on issues and reporting. And this is what the ANC is about. Our Constitution has also made provision for the establishment of institutions that support democracy.

Parliament has a role to monitor all Government departments and institutions. As a constitutional principle, it should be borne in mind that Parliament has persuasive powers in the form of legislation over Government, and not instructive powers. However, flowing from this is that the premise for the relationship at this level is to guard against temptation by the executive to abuse power.

Depending on countries and democracies, or practices that different societies or governments use, such relationships are either loose or tight. If we take the example of the United States, the relationship is even stricter because sharing of personnel between the two agencies is strictly forbidden. The assumption is that it encourages more accountability on the part of the executive or the government.

Democracy also puts responsibilities on public representatives and the public at large. In the very institution of Parliament, we have the executive which is also made up of members of Parliament, unlike in other countries. In other countries, once a person is elected to the executive he or she resigns from Parliament. In our case, it means that our executive is also accountable to Parliament. In the past years we have maintained that this obligation of accounting and performing management responsibilities, and taking care of resources entrusted to them, is fulfilled through this institution.

Section 55 of our Constitution gives power to Parliament to consider, pass, amend or reject any legislation before the Assembly. To date, we find that our Parliament has passed a number of Bills. Reports are also passed in big numbers. And today, I think, is one of the examples of those days when we pass lots of reports.

Questions are also asked to the executive on policy implementation, problems that are facing communities, budgets and expenditures, to name but a few. The office of the Speaker is also one important entry to Parliament as an institution. In terms of the Rules, Cabinet members must submit Bills for classification.

At present, our Parliament has about 25 portfolio committees which conduct oversight and monitor Government departments and statutory bodies. These statutory bodies in turn have to report to the committees. I must submit that the 25 committees that we currently have look like a big number. An example of this is the Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture, Science and Technology, which has to oversee about 48 institutions; and we have only 52 weeks in a year. So, even if they were to take one institution a week, it would still not work.

We have committees such as the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, which has to see all the Bills that come through, and some not only directed to justice matters but because they have impact on other committees. I think, in the coming Parliament, these are some of the issues that have to be looked into and changed.

The hours that these committees spend on deliberations are also really difficult for some members who have health problems because they have to spend hours in committees and still attend the House. Some of these committees that have big workloads do also have to continue with other work such as questions to hold the executive accountable, participating in debates and also going back to constituencies to do constituency work.

With all these responsibilities, there are of course quite a few challenges: firstly, the administrative support for Parliament and secondly, the technological challenges. We need to have updated technologies that can help us to be efficient and sufficient in our work.

In meeting these constitutional objectives, we carry out our mandate to South Africa - though we do have these challenges. To name but a few, I must say that looking at the number of Bills that we have passed since 1999, one can realise that this is not really a sleeping kraal, as some people might think, but it is a Parliament where members are actively working and also passing the laws that are having a positive impact on our communities.

I must say that though I embrace the concept of Parliament - and we have done our best in implementing what is expected of us - I cannot forget to tell the House that this is a foreign concept to us Africans, especially if you look at the history of Africans where we inherited the systems that were used by our colonial powers. For instance, in our case, we have this Westminster system which, of course, as Africans, we are not familiar with. In our systems we know that we use kraals, where there are no opponents but a group that discusses the issues, and not the people as such. I do understand sometimes when people have to oppose even where it is not necessary - it is because of the system that we have adopted.

Ka segagešo ge re e ya kgorong, re ya go boledišana. Le gona ge o ya kgorong re a tseba gore ga o ye ka gore o hloile motho; o ya kgorong ka gore o hloya taba. Ge le fihla kgorong le seka taba; ga le seke motho. Ke ka tsela yeo re rego ge re dutše ka kua kgorong o hwetšago e bile ge molato e le wo mogologolo, ba thoma ka gore: Ngwan’a phoša dira ga a bolawe, ka gore le ge a dirile phošo, motho ke motho mo a feletšego; o swanetše gore a laetšwe diphošo tša gagwe gomme a kgone go lokiša mo a sentšego gona.

Ka tsela yeo, ke kgopela gore ngwaga wo tlago, ge re tšwa dikgethong, re lebeleleng gore a Palamente ye ya rena e kgona go dira mošomo wo e bego e swanetše go o phetha naa. Ka gore ge re gopotšana gabotsebotse, seo ANC e itlamilego ka sona ke go kaonefatša maphelo a batho. Gomme re ka se kgone go kaonefatša maphelo a batho ge re sa ba dumelele gore le bona ba tle mo Palamenteng, ba bone tšeo di dirwago mo Palamenteng.

Ka gona, a re tšweleng pele ka go hlabolla Palamente ye ya rena gore e kgone go šoma ka tsela yeo re nyakago gore e phethe mošomo wa yona ka gona. Ke a leboga. [Legofsi.] (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[According to our custom, when we go to the chief’s kraal, we go to converse. We know that even if you go there, you do not go because you hate a person; you go to the chief’s kraal because you hate the matter. When you arrive at the chief’s kraal, you try the matter, you do not try the person. That is why, when we are seated in the chief’s kraal, even when you the case is very serious, they commence by saying: If a person has committed a crime, that person should not be severely punished, because even if he has made a mistake, the person is human, the person must be shown his or her mistakes so that he or she can rectify whatever harm he or she has caused.

In that vein, I request that during the coming year, when we come back from the elections, we look into whether this Parliament of ours is performing the task that it was supposed to accomplish. If we remind one another very well of what the ANC has bound itself to: to improve people’s lives. So we cannot improve people’s lives if we do not allow them to also come to the Parliament, to see that this is done at Parliament.

So, let us continue in renewing this Parliament of ours so that it performs in the manner that we want it to in order to complete its task. I thank you. [Applause.]]

Adv Z L MADASA: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP believes that Parliament is not playing its oversight and accountability role sufficiently, especially over the executive.

In terms of Chapter 4, section 42(3), of the Constitution, the National Assembly is elected to represent the people and to ensure government by the people under the Constitution. It does this by scrutinising and overseeing executive action. In terms of section 42(3), Parliament also chooses the President to ensure that the people govern.

In practice, we have seen this Government, instead of ensuring oversight over the organs of the state, especially the executive, doing so only against its own members. Parliament has been quick, and even embarrassingly open, when it dealt with MPs who have misused travelling vouchers. Such members have been dealt with strictly, reported to the police, in some instances punished, and some have resigned. Well and good.

But, when allegations have been levelled against some executive members and the entire Government, in some instances, suddenly, the executive has reversed the roles and exercised oversight over Parliament. Members have been intimidated; and party discipline has been invoked. An impression has been created that the protection of the executive, when accused of corruption, is part and parcel of the defence of the democratic revolution against reactionary forces and spies. Corruption may be the new revolution, but it is not in the interest of the people we were elected to represent, and it is certainly not the kind of revolution we must defend. I hope that in the next term of Parliament, especially with the advent of the Pan-African Parliament, where we must play and are expected to play a leading role, we shall take our oversight role more seriously. I thank you.

Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the PAC supports this report. We believe that Parliament is a large institution which can only run properly with a system of checks and balances. Without this provision, we could easily degenerate into a disorderly and ineffective House.

Parliament is also a high-profile institution. Therefore, it is a role model for the nation and other legislative structures in the provinces and local government.

Our experience has not been a very encouraging one, but we should work hard to attain the highest ideals of our democracy: oversight, accountability, transparency and responsiveness. These words echo the core values of our democracy.

The PAC supports this report. [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Madam Deputy Speaker, as a democracy, oversight and accountability are an assurance to our citizenry. The Government is practising its authority and delegated powers efficiently and effectively in compliance with our national Constitution that makes laws such that accountability and oversight are firmly advocated, thus making us a democracy.

Our national Constitution is governing as supreme and has firmly entrenched a democratic system of governance. Through the separation of powers, accountability and transparency, we place confidence in our citizenry with the promise that the apartheid regime will never be a reoccurrence in South Africa.

However, while the Constitution may have stipulated these provisions for governance, it is a mechanism that would put into place aspects that would ensure that a true democracy shall be maintained. Here, Parliament allowed and catered for the transparency and accountability that our Constitution has made incumbent upon us. All parliamentary activities, processes and encounters are overseen, not only by committees but are accessible for the oversight of the public too. These role-players, in turn, are able to make known our accountability and procedures or our failure to do so.

In whatever respect it may be, the MF notes that our accountability is first and foremost towards the South African people, who have voted us to this authority and who deserve an assurance that their interests are being administered most efficiently and effectively.

The MF, however, read the report and seeks that greater accountability and oversight be inculcated to ensure greater success in our parliamentary process. The subcommittee has made a lot of observations and suggested that the MF’s request be taken very seriously.

To succeed in having democracy, South Africa has to inculcate its constitutional values at 110%, with accountability and oversight playing an important role.

The MF supports the report. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M F CASSIM: Madam Deputy Speaker, a member of Parliament or even someone in public could quite legitimately ask: What is the point of making thoroughly good laws - as we make here - or of approving adequate budgets if the laws are not fully implemented or the budget that has been given not fully utilised? It would be, indeed, futile. For this reason, portfolio committees, which have indeed come into their own in the past 10 years of democracy, must exercise extensive oversight over organs of state. This must be done on a co-operative basis between the two Houses of Parliament and according to an overall plan that gives emphasis to the PMFA. This is a common request that has been made by all political parties.

Scopa reports, year in and year out, point out the failures of departments or of entities in respect of, for example, maintaining proper asset registers or appointing internal audit control measures, amongst other things. After Scopa has reported, as it will be reporting to the House today, it should be incumbent upon portfolio committees to ensure that regularity obtains where Scopa has made a finding against an entity or a department.

This year, a request was made to the Programme Committee of the National Assembly to create opportunities for portfolio committees to debate significant reports that emanate from oversight work undertaken by committees. This is in line with practices in many parliaments of the world, where 30 or more fixed opportunities are created in each calendar year for committees to report to Parliament.

This year, also, we had some very important oversight reports to the House. For example, we had one very important report from the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, which made important recommendations. The question was: What happens to these recommendations after they are made in the House?

I want to thank the hon Chohan-Kota for leading this committee. It is a very important and significant committee, and I hope that its life will be sustained in the new year in order for it to pursue the findings that it has made.

We support the report. Thank you.

Mr J H JEFFREY: Madam Deputy Speaker, as some of the previous speakers have outlined, this debate comes after a long and thorough process.

The Constitution specifies that the National Assembly must provide mechanisms for oversight and accountability. Consultants were appointed to develop these mechanisms and proposals, their report was tabled, discussed by the Joint Rules Committee, and a subcommittee of the Joint Rules Committee was appointed to examine and consider the report. After extensive deliberations, the committee finally produced their own report, which was then further adopted by the Joint Rules Committee.

I am a little bit surprised by one of the previous speakers, the hon Dr Woods, who indicated that there was a lack of will to take the matter seriously. Dr Woods, unfortunately, did not attend any of the meetings of that subcommittee and I don’t think he attended any of the meetings of the Rules Committee when it was deliberating on this report. Dr Woods, unfortunately also, is not in the House at present. He left shortly after giving his input. I do not know if that is an indication of how serious he really is over the issue of this House and oversight.

What is clear is that although we are trying to refine the rules relating to oversight, there are a number of mechanisms in place already. I believe, unlike Ms Smuts, that Parliament has been exercising its oversight function well. Ms Smuts, when she spoke - the hon Ms Smuts - made a reference to Parliament as having been once a powerful organ of state. I’m not sure what period she was harking back to. Was it the pre-1994 period, Ms Smuts? Well, I think there can be no comparison between then and now. There is far greater oversight being performed at the moment.

Committees are going out, looking on the ground, seeing what departments are doing. Reports are being tabled and discussed in this House. So I think Parliament is performing its function particularly well.

What is clear from the report though, that is the subcommittee’s report, is that there will always be room for improvement. The recommendations of the subcommittee, as tabled in the ATC, show the processes that need to be followed to refine and build on the procedures and mechanisms that are already being followed.

As the legislative workload hopefully decreases in future years, Parliament will be able to spend more time on oversight work, in examining how Government policies are being implemented, where improvements with implementation of those policies should be made, the problems that have been experienced with the implementation of legislation, and so on. A crucial area is improving the capacity of Parliament and its committees in dealing with oversight work. More resources need to be given to the committee section to ensure that reports can be properly processed.

Parliament needs to also start developing the capacity to get its own answers about what the departments are doing, not necessarily having to rely on information coming from the departments themselves. I’m sure that Parliament will be able to improve on the oversight work in committees and in the interaction with departments, both here in the precincts of Parliament and on oversight on the ground, as well as by MPs in their constituency work.

I think that is an area which hasn’t really been highlighted by many other speakers - that even in our constituency work, we should be performing oversight. All MPs should be fully up to date with how the government departments in their constituencies are functioning and the progress being made in implementation of Government programmes in their constituencies.

As is being stated in the committee’s report, the definition of oversight is quite complex. What is clearly problematic, is that some of the members of this House, some of the sections of the media or even some of the sections of the public, see oversight as a concept that indicates inherent hostility between Parliament and the executive.

Oversight is equated with a watchdog role and watchdogs, as we all know, are there to watch out for bad people, for trespassers, for burglars, and then to sound the alarm or to bite them, or both. In terms of this definition, oversight can best be performed or probably can only be performed by the opposition. Maybe the proponents of this understanding of oversight are too fixated with the Westminster two-party system of government, which my hon colleague had indicated we do not have here.

If this model was to be followed, that its only really the opposition that can perform oversight, then shouldn’t we be amending our Constitution so that there is a certain minimum number of opposition members so that they can perform oversight properly? Because currently, if the electorate does not like the opposition, and they are small in number, can they perform oversight properly? [Interjections.]

Welcome, Mr McIntosh. I’m glad that you finally came to listen.

The Constitution is quite clear: the executive is accountable to Parliament, not to the opposition. And Parliament, not the opposition, performs oversight over the executive. This is because the executive and Parliament are accountable to the people who elected it. So accountability is to the people and the oversight that Parliament performs is on the people’s behalf. A very large number of people - hon Mr McIntosh - voted for the ANC, far more than those who voted for the then DP.

Government is as accountable to the ANC voters as it is to the DP voters, and in fact more so because there were far more ANC voters than DP or DA voters. As an example of the view that holding the executive accountable has to be a hostile exercise, I want to refer to the Hogarth column in last week’s Sunday Times: a section entitled, “Spellbinding stuff on Parliament Live”, which mocked the question asked by the hon Langa Zita to the Deputy President on how South Africa’s involvement in peace initiatives contributes to improving the lives of South Africans.

The implication of the piece was that it was allegedly a ``sweetheart’’ question, and that it was inherently boring to the public because it did not “grill the Deputy President; put him on the spot; shake him or roast him”, to use the words. Now, do the ANC voters who elected Mr Zita not have the right to have that question answered? Does this kind of question have to be phrased the way that Mr Jankielsohn - I think it was - of the DA phrased it in a follow-up, that it would be better to spend our money on our own people directly? This may be the question that the DA supporters are asking, but it is not the question that the ANC supporters are asking. Questions are not there just to put the executive on the spot, but also for the people of our country to get information on the things that Government is doing.

Sections of the media, unfortunately, see oversight as something that is hostile. In focusing on Parliament, they focus on certain members of the opposition who are particularly good at sound bites and project them as good MPs.

Unfortunately, they do not examine the record of the same MPs, the fact that their attendance in Parliament is appalling; that they don’t attend, or even want to be members of portfolio committees. I think most of the parliamentary journalists are aware that the main oversight work of Parliament gets done in committees, but they do not make use of the opportunities for engagement with the executive that Parliament provides. They are not even participating in this debate.

I appeal to these journalists that, instead of trying to create sensational stories about what goes on here, to provide the public in their pieces with stories of what really goes on in and around Parliament: the deliberations in the committees; the work done by members in their constituencies; to also focus on what ANC members are saying, not just to dismiss them contemptuously, as an article in today’s This Day did this morning, referring to not just ANC members, but the army of backbenchers who have sat in Parliament for five or more years, as acting largely as voting fodder. I think that was an indication of the lack of understanding of the role of MPs and the work that MPs are doing, particularly in their constituencies.

One of the objects of the ANC is to democratise the institutions of state and to transform Parliament into a Parliament of the people. I think that a lot of progress has been made in ensuring that Parliament performs oversight. I think that the ANC took the subcommittee extremely seriously, including the amount of work that particularly our co-chair Ms Chohan-Khota put in. What was unfortunate was the absence of a number of opposition parties. The hon Adv Madasa, who also stood here and complained about the lack of oversight and expressed the feeling that Government or Parliament was not focusing on corruption, never attended a single meeting of that committee. He was so interested in oversight that he did not bother to attend. I don’t think any member of the ACDP attended at all. It is easy to stand here and say things, but it is another thing actually to knuckle down and do the work.

We need to look at how we can improve, and that we will do. I am sure that with the implementation of the resolutions of the committee, we can build on the work done by this Parliament and ensure that the oversight work goes from strength to strength. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

CONSIDERATION OF FIFTY-SEVENTH TO NINETY-THIRD AND NINETY-FIFTH TO ONE- HUNDRED-AND-EIGHTH REPORTS OF STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS Mr F BEUKMAN: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and hon members. Thank you for the opportunity to introduce these resolutions to the House this afternoon. I listened with great interest to the debate on oversight this afternoon, and I must say, maybe from practical experience, if anyone in the House wants to experience oversight and accountability in practice, they are welcome to join Scopa. We would appreciate more members.

The resolutions being discussed this afternoon total more than 50, an indication that Scopa has concentrated this year on its core business, namely the role of overseeing public finances from the perspective of a parliamentary oversight committee. The resolutions that were tabled on 25 and 28 October relate respectively to Government departments and public entities. Due to the limited time I would like to refer first to a few issues in general.

The introduction of the new method of work by Scopa in 2002 has enabled us to use our limited time more effectively and more productively. Scopa could spend more time on the problem departments or on departments where financial management is not up to scratch.

Scopa, during 2003, especially focused on public entities. Public entities should be a major focus of the oversight work and role of Parliament. It is also stated in terms of the general findings of the Auditor-General’s general report that the standard of financial management of certain public entities should be drastically improved as a matter of urgency. Parliament cannot allow a situation where institutions that use public money cannot account in terms of general accounting principles, or do not have the necessary systems in place to ensure that public funds are spent in terms of the constitutional, legal or operational mandate. Parliament, as an institution, cannot allow such a situation to prevail.

Major public entities as listed in Schedule 2 of the PFMA and other public entities listed in Schedule 3, those called national public entities, are not at liberty to do as they like in terms of financial reporting standards. The AG indicated in his General Report on Audit Outcomes 2003 that the information available to Parliament on public entities is a problem. Only 69% of listed public entities provided information to the Auditor-General. If they do not make this important information available to the AG, he cannot report to Parliament. If Parliament, and in this regard Scopa, cannot obtain the information, the oversight role of Parliament is severely compromised. The information is based on submissions of annual reports or financial statements, as required by the PFMA.

The AG indicated that it is important to note that those entities excluded are often the problematic cases. Public entities in general should adhere to their constitutional and legal obligations. If not, their boards and accounting officers should be reprimanded in the strongest possible terms by Parliament and the executive.

With regard to national departments, the Auditor-General indicated in his annual review that eight departments out of the 33 reports issued received qualified opinions, the total expenditure being R140 billion. Regarding internal control problems, I think that in all the resolutions this afternoon, those which are qualified, Scopa focuses on internal control as a major problem issue. Seventy-seven issues were reported in 2001 and 133 issues in 2003, so internal control is still a major problem. The AG indicated that particular attention needs to be drawn to asset management, transfer payments and internal audits.

Departments that received qualifications again - making it three years in a row, in 2001, 2002 and 2003 - are the following: Home Affairs, Justice and Constitutional Development, Public Works and Water Affairs.

By hierdie departemente is dit noodsaaklik dat die uitvoerende gesag dringend aandag gee aan die resolusies van Skoor, wat hulle dan ook resolusies van die Nasionale Vergadering maak. Remediërende stappe word deur Skoor aanbeveel, en dan ook deur die Parlement. Tydige ingryping is nodig. Die resolusies wat betrekking het op departemente wat jaar na jaar gekwalifiseerde oudits kry, is ‘n bevestiging dat die wetgewende gesag wel die regte fokus het. Gepaste optrede deur die uitvoerende gesag is egter noodsaaklik om die probleemgevalle aan te spreek.

Kwessies wat verskyn het in die resolusies - en u sal sien, u wat dit gelees het - asook dié in die Aankondigings, Tertafelleggings en Komiteeverslae, is die probleemkwessies wat ook aangespreek word, en wat ons dan ook aanbeveel. Remediërende stappe is soos volg: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

In these departments it is essential that the executive authority pays urgent attention to the resolutions of Scopa, which then also makes them resolutions of the National Assembly. Remedial steps are recommended by Scopa and then also by Parliament. Timeous intervention is necessary. The resolutions pertaining to the departments that receive qualified audits year after year are confirmation that the legislative authority does indeed have the right focus. Appropriate conduct by the executive authority is essential, however, in order to address problematic issues.

Issues that appeared in the resolutions - and you will see, those of you who have read them - as well as in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee reports, are the problematic issues which are also being addressed, and that is what we recommend. Remedial steps are the following:]

Potential reasons for increased reporting could be a result of new requirements, such as the Division of Revenue Act, improved financial reporting requirements in terms of the phased PFMA implementation and increased standards in the audit process through a rigorous quality-control process. Other examples are asset management, incomplete and inaccurate asset registers, transfer payments and the monitoring and review of compliance with the Division of Revenue Act.

Die gebrek aan behoorlike finansiële maatreëls in departemente het ‘n impak op lewering, op die vermoë van burgers om dienste van die owerheid te ontvang. Dis daarom noodsaaklik dat alle lede van die Parlement - en dit is ook in die vorige debat na verwys - in hul komitees, portefeuljes en dissiplines kennis neem van die departemente wat in hul verslae jaar na jaar nie die basiese elemente van die Wet op Openbare Finansiële Bestuur behoorlik implementeer nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows)

[The lack of proper financial measures in departments has an impact on delivery and on the ability of citizens to receive services from the authorities. It is therefore essential that all members of Parliament - and this was also referred to during the previous debate - in their committees, portfolios and disciplines take cognisance of those departments which, year after year, do not properly implement the basic elements of the Public Finance Management Act.]

In general, I want to refer to some public entities and also to some national departments with regard to problems we have experienced. For example, in the 58th report, on Artscape, Scopa found there is uncertainty regarding Government funding, and also doubt about the entity’s ability to continue as a going concern - so that is an issue to be investigated.

Then, regarding the Commission on Gender Equality, there are weaknesses in internal control, noncompliance with the rules and regulations and personnel expenditure being 50% of total expenditure. These are therefore problem cases.

Regarding the Council on Higher Education, according to the 60th report, the accounting authority is not audited, there is no audit commission at the council and no approval from Treasury to open new bank accounts, and they did not deposit funds in excess of R1 million as required by the Corporation for Public Deposits Act. I want to refer to other departments quickly, in the limited time available. One example is the Legal Aid Board, where we have expressed our commendation with regard to the unqualified audit opinion, but again there are inefficiencies in internal control systems and procedures, such as undetected duplicate payments and noncompliance with the VAT Act, the Legal Aid Guide and the PFMA.

Then a public entity such as the National Home Builders Registration Council receives a qualified opinion from the AG and displays various weaknesses in internal control and noncompliance with laws and regulations. Then, also, with regard to museums in general, most of the museums have problems with internal control and also with regard to the handling of state subsidies.

In the 69th report we have tabled a very comprehensive resolution on the SA Revenue Service. We’ve also included some issues that we have dealt with during our site visit to various subdepartments of Sars, and I just want to refer to some issues, especially with regard to internal control:

However, the committee noted with concern the qualified audit opinion issued by the Auditor-General with respect to the administered revenue owing to certain shortcomings in internal control. The committee therefore decided to examine the following specific matters during its hearing with the accounting authority.

We referred, for example, to the assurance process and supporting documentation as important issues that should be taken up. We also indicated in our resolution that Sars should provide Parliament with a biannual progress report with regard to those matters raised by the committee.

Then, for example, the SA Sports Commission also has these issues that are really a golden thread through all these qualified reports - nonadherence to PFMA requirements as the audit committee of the accounting authority did not function during the year, the internal audit function was not maintained throughout the year as required by the PFMA and noncompliance with various laws and regulations.

Then, I think, the problem children of the public entities really - the next Parliament should really deal with this in more detail - are the Setas. One good, or bad, example is the financial statements of the Tourism, Hospitality and Sport Education and Training Authority. This is an example that really indicates that we will have to look at the Setas as a group, although there are, for example, Setas that do very good work.

Byvoorbeeld die Seta vir die bankbedryf, sowel as die een vir die versekeringsbedryf, se finansiële situasie is gesond en die bestuursituasie is gesond. Maar ek kan enkele voorbeelde deel met lede van dié Raad. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows)

[For example, the Seta for the banking industry, as well as the one for the insurance industry, does have a healthy financial situation and management is in a sound condition. But I can share several examples with members of this House:]

An example relates to the functioning and effectiveness of the board. The salary package of the CEO at Theta is more than those of other Seta CEOs, and Scopa made certain recommendations in this regard, that the Auditor- General should make a comparison of the salary levels of all the Setas and report thereon in respect of the 2002-03 financial year, and the chairperson of this board of Theta should also provide Scopa with a framework or guidelines on the restructured salaries.

We also note that the attendance at board meetings is poor and that the board has been reluctant to take action against absentee members - so it is really with regard to regulation and control. Scopa also recommends that the board continue with its various improvement measures, which may include appropriate action against nonattending members, that the department indicate how the effectiveness of boards of training authorities are measured, and that the Auditor-General pay particular attention to the governance aspects of the board during the next audit. These are really some of the big problematic issues. Unauthorised and irregular loans granted are also highlighted in the report as problems that we have to deal with.

Then, with regard to the 78th report, on the Department of Health, there’s also the reversal of stale warrant vouchers, conditional grants and donor funding - issues that will have to be improved on during the next financial year.

With regard to the reports that were tabled in October, I would like to highlight the following issues. For example, regarding the National Electronic Media Institute, in the 96th report, the committee also noted the following issues raised under “Emphasis of Matter”: A register of interested contacts was not maintained as required by the Companies Act and requirements of the PFMA were not fully complied with. So this is really a big problem.

With regard to the 99th report, on the Represented Political Parties’ Fund, Scopa noted the following: Although the Represented Political Parties’ Fund meets the definition of a public entity, as defined in the PMFA, the fund has not yet been listed as a public entity. We also note the late tabling of previous years’ reports to Parliament, and reports of some political parties were not available for reviewing and auditing as per section 66 of the Public Accountants’ and Auditors’ Act of 1991.

With regard to another public entity, the State Information Technology Agency, the 104th report, we note with concern another qualified opinion, as well as the following matters under “Emphasis of Matter”. The environment of restructuring in which Sita operated for the year under review had a negative impact on the control environment and led to inefficiencies in internal control systems and procedures. Shares were not issued to the state in terms of the State Information Technology Agency Act of 1998. Disclosed issued share capital did not agree with the registered issued share capital of R1 billion, as recorded in the Register of Companies. The committee therefore awaits the next annual report and the report of the Auditor-General on the regulatory orders, as well as the follow-up audit on the performance audit.

Dít in breë trekke dan is die verslae wat ter tafel gelê word. Soos aangedui is daar ‘n hele reeks kwessies wat in al die verslae na vore kom. [Those, broadly speaking, are the reports that are being tabled. As indicated, there are several issues that come to the fore in all of these reports.]

There are transversal issues that need to be addressed, not only by Scopa as an oversight committee, but also by portfolio committees as part of the broader oversight function of Parliament. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move:

That the reports be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Reports accordingly adopted.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC WORKS - HIV/AIDS WORKSHOP IN CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY

Inkosi M W HLENGWA: Hon Madam Deputy Speaker and hon members of the National Assembly, let me start by saying that the Portfolio Committee on Public Works welcomes the opportunity of considering this report together with the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa.

The scourge of HIV/Aids is more than a nightmare, across the globe. Today we are engaging ourselves in a debate on this subject as a result of the workshop which was held in Durban, on 25 and 26 November 2002. I wish to acknowledge our profound gratitude to the participants who made it possible that such a report was produced through the inputs from the workshop.

The negative impact of HIV/Aids in the construction industry, which is the third-largest employer in the country, is not something sucked out of our thumbs. According to Information Services’ research - based in Cape Town - South Africa is in the midst of a serious HIV/Aids epidemic.

HIV infection has increased sharply over the past decade from almost zero to a level where between 4 to 6 million people are estimated to be HIV- positive, that is around 11% of the total population. The official estimate for South Africa in 2001 was 4,74 million. The epidemic’s toll continues to mount even in the midst of the already high HIV prevalence rates.

The number of Aids-related deaths among young adults in South Africa, for example, is expected to peak in 2010 to 2015, where it is estimated that there will be more than 17 times as many deaths amongst persons aged between 15 and 34 years as there would have been without Aids. Because Aids most threatens people of reproductive age from about the age of 15 to 49 years, its strongest impact has been felt in the workplace and within the context of the family.

These are realities that reinforced the decision that was taken by the Portfolio Committee on Public Works in collaboration with the Department of Public Works, the Independent Development Trust and the Construction Industry Development Board that brought together decision-makers, Government officials, traditional leaders, experts in the field of HIV/Aids, traditional healers and the SA construction industry stakeholders.

The construction industry is not a unique one, since it remains a two-sided coin like all other coins. Its one side is that of offering employment and the other is the separation of families. When there is employment, families benefit, but when employees get sick, they go back to their villages to die. It is on this basis that we need to put our heads together and strategise relief and programmes for families who suffer whilst some of their family members are employed in the construction industry and after their death as a result of HIV/Aids.

It is generally agreed that the impact of Aids in the construction industry will essentially be the same as the impact of Aids in other industries. The infection will thus contribute to rising absenteeism, lower productivity for employers and reduction or complete loss of income for the affected worker.

In addition, for an industry that is characterised by cyclical demand, a severe blow may be dealt as the economy slumps due to the impact of Aids such as absenteeism, illness and the need to train new workers. The construction industry may also experience problems in the future, if the predicted reduction in the demand for low-income housing due to rising Aids- related deaths occurs.

To us, as the Portfolio Committee on Public Works, it was significant to solicit the participation of the institution of traditional leadership, and it was represented by the National House of Traditional Leaders. In their paper, they vowed their dedication to take a leading role in the fight against Aids in their areas of jurisdiction. They shared with the workshop participants how they had structured the institution for the fight against Aids.

I wish to put on record that six provincial traditional leaders’ HIV/Aids task teams were officially inaugurated to do their work in the fight against Aids without any financial assistance or budget. They could be doing more but their hands are tied by the lack of funds, and yet their communities are dying of Aids, poverty and unemployment.

It is unfortunate that we are talking about these things at this critical time - the time of campaigning for power vis-à-vis addressing the real issues that affect the destitute people of our land.

In conclusion, our report has a number of recommendations that will, definitely, yield good results when implemented. In this report, we propose to create a forum of stakeholders where a road map will be crafted for the implementation and eradication of the scourge of HIV/Aids. I’ve deliberately avoided dealing with the other points and recommendations in the report, because my colleagues will be coming to this podium to deal with those.

Lo mbiko bekungakuhle ugcine usungumhlahlandlela oyosungula indlela okuyohanjwa ngayo, kuthungathwa ikhambi okuyilona eliyolamlela isizwe kulolu bhubhane lwegciwane leNgculazi. Lokhu uHulumeni waseNingizimu Afrika akwenze ngokweqiniso, ngaphandle kokunaka ukuthi labo abalawulayo babheke izinzuzo zombusazwe, noma zobuqembu ngesikhathi isizwe sibhubha ngoba ukuba khona kukaHulumeni kuyoqhubeka ngoba kukhona isizwe, kukhona abavoti. Uma bengasekho abavoti, sibabukela bebhuqwa yileli gciwane, uHulumeni uyoba khona kanjani? Ubani oyovotela lo Hulumeni ukuze abe khona?

Lokhu ngeke kwaba yinto ebhekene neNingizimu Afrika kuphela. Abantu abasemandleni abangaziphatha ngaleyo ndlela noma ngabe bakuliphi izwe, abayukuphumelela ukuba baqhubeke nobuhulumeni bengasekho abavoti. Ngakho-ke lokhu kubalulekile. Ngokubuka kwethu, njengaleli komidi, sikwazile ukuthinta imikhakha eyehlukene ngaphandle kokubuka ukuthi ubani uqhamuka kuphi, kuliphi iqembu nokuthi ubani usebenza msebenzi muni; senza ukuba kuhlanganwe ukuze sithungathe, sithole ikhambi ekugcineni lolulekelela isizwe siphume kule nkinga. Ngiyathokoza. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)

[It will be commendable if this report ends up as a guideline that will create the way to follow in finding a cure, which will help the nation against this deadly virus - Aids. The Government of South Africa must do this truthfully, without looking at the fact that those in authority expect political or party political gains while the nation is dying, because the existence of the government will only continue while there is a nation - the voters. When the voters are not there - we are watching them being killed by this virus - how will there be a government? Who will vote for this Government in order for it to exist?

This will not only affect South Africa. The people in power who could behave like that, irrespective of the country in which they are, will not succeed in continuing with governing the country when there are no voters. This is, therefore, important. From our point of view, as this committee, we were able to consult with different categories without looking at who comes from where, from which party and that what kind of work one does. We created a situation where we can work together in trying to find a cure eventually, which will help the nation to escape from this conundrum. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Dr E E JASSAT: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, the four Ministers that I see in the House, the first case of Aids was reported in the United States in 1981. However, the Aids epidemic in Africa started in the late 1970s and 1980s. The HIV/Aids epidemic has spread widely throughout the region, but the hardest hit are South Africa, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Lesotho and Swaziland.

Current estimates are that Botswana, the miracle of Africa, has a staggering infection rate of 38,8%. In Zimbabwe, where the disease has exacerbated the current famine in the country, infection rates are around 33,7%. In South Africa, the economic heart of the region, the HIV rate is now 25%. Lesotho has an infection rate of 31% and in Swaziland it stands at 33,4%.

Aware of the catastrophe facing our country, the Portfolio Committee on Public Works held an HIV/Aids workshop in the construction industry during the latter part of last year. What emerged from this workshop is that the construction industry is the third-largest employer in South Africa. Like many in the building or infrastructure sector, the industry employs people between the ages of 18 and 35 years. Most of the construction labour is drawn from the rural areas, and the nature of the jobs also tend to be short-term, thus rendering the workforce a highly mobile group. As a consequence the industry separates families for long times.

Research commissioned by the Department of Public Works and other construction stakeholders indicates that the construction industry has the third-highest incidence of HIV/Aids per economic centre in South Africa. The impact of HIV/Aids within the industry manifests primarily in the form of high rates of absenteeism and the depletion of skills as a result of which the high incidence of HIV/Aids hinders the industry’s ability to produce work in a timely manner. In a secondary fashion this impacts on poverty, unemployment, education and other factors.

To combat this devastating epidemic, some very practical suggestions were made at this workshop. The first was that HIV/Aids awareness should take place on site. Because of the mobility of the individuals who work in this industry, the best place to contact and educate them would be on site. The second suggestion was that provision of occupational and family health care, including free HIV testing services, should be rendered on site again. In addition, the family of the infected employee should be provided with a counselling and support system.

The third and very important suggestion was that recruitment of the workforce should be from the local population rather than using migrant labour such as in the mining industry, where 70% of workers are migratory workers. If the families live where the people work, it is easier to contact them and make educational progress with such communities. Fourthly, the recruiting of traditional leaders and healers into the campaign is crucial. As previously mentioned, a lot of these workers emerge from rural areas and when they’re ill they go back to their homelands. Therefore it is necessary for traditional leaders to be involved in this whole process of education and treatment.

The United Nations has characterised HIV/Aids in Africa as the greatest single threat to Africa’s social and economic development. The construction industry, like the police service, teachers, the armed forces, social and health workers, and most others, have to rise to the challenge we as a country and people will face in the days ahead. Therefore we’re quite happy that this workshop took place and enlightened the people in the different spheres of our economic activity to the dangers and the solutions to the problems we face with this epidemic. Thank you. Mr S E OPPERMAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, the theme of my short presentation this afternoon is “An Industry Under Siege”.

In Afrikaans is dit “‘n Industrie Onder Beleg”.

Alhoewel die statistiek omtrent ongelukke op Suid-Afrikaanse paaie skokkend is, en krisisvergaderings gehou en strategieë ontwikkel word om die sterftes op ons paaie te verminder, is die slagting op ons paaie niks nie in vergelyking met die aantal mense wat jaarliks aan vigsverwante siektes sterf. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In Afrikaans it is “‘n Industrie onder beleg”.

Although statistics regarding accidents on South African roads are shocking, and crisis meetings are being held and strategies developed to decrease the number of deaths on our roads, the carnage on our roads bears no comparison to the number of people dying every year from Aids-related diseases.]

South Africa has surpassed India as the country with the highest number of people infected with HIV in the world. Five million people are living in our country with the disease. Six hundred thousand, according to UNAids, died during 2002.

Dit kan vergelyk word met 80 18-sitplek-taxi’s wat elke dag van die jaar, 365 dae, in kop-aan-kop-botsings betrokke is waarin al die passasiers saam met die bestuurder sterf. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[This can be compared to 80 18-seater taxis involved every single day of the year, 365 days, in head-on collisions, in which all the passengers, the driver included, die.]

No wonder Liam Hook, one of the directors of UNAids, referred to the crisis as an armageddon, and this is only the second wave of the pandemic. The first wave was the infection, silent and virtually unnoticed. The second wave refers to the deaths because of Aids-related illnesses. The third and most devastating wave refers to the economic, political and social impact that has the potential to decimate economies, with far-reaching implications for all of us.

Hierdie golf, die derde golf, is besig om oor Suider-Afrika te breek. Daarom, alhoewel die onderwerp van vigs tot vervelens toe in hierdie Huis gedebatteer is, durf niemand die impak van die pandemie onderskat nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[This wave, the third wave, is at present breaking over Southern Africa. For this reason no-one dares to underestimate the impact of the pandemic, although the subject of Aids has been debated ad nauseam in this House.]

Everyone in South Africa will be infected or affected by the waves of infection, mortality and devastation. There will be no place to hide. The fact that we had representatives from the National Youth Commission, the Department of Social Development, the Chamber of Mines, the Institute of Security Studies, the Medical Research Council, the JOB Construction and Mining, the Traditional Healers’ Association, the National House of Traditional Leaders, the Department of Public Works and the Construction Industry Development Board at the workshop, with the hon Minister of Public Works, Stella Sigcau, responsible for the official opening to assess the impact of HIV/Aids in the construction industry is an indication of the seriousness with which we view the unfolding crisis.

The Construction Industry Development Board was established by Parliament to stimulate growth, reform and improvement of the construction industry and to enhance the construction industry’s role in the socioeconomic development of the country. Because one of their key responsibilities is to drive implementation of the strategies for the improvement within the industry, the CIDB has developed a specification which aims to influence the way clients engage contractors by making HIV/Aids awareness on site part of the total deliverables to the client. HIV/Aids awareness on site will be an item that the contractor can price and must deliver as part of the entire project. Monitoring and evaluation will not be easy, because the industry is complex and fragmented, with many different role-players.

We believe, however, that as we join hands with all these stakeholders inside and outside the construction industry in sharing the resources and expertise, and with a commitment to the challenge before us, we will be able to turn the tide. We thank you.

Dr M S MOGOBA: Madam Deputy Speaker, HIV/Aids is a horrific threat, not only to the building and construction industry, but to the whole nation; to this Parliament, the cause of our land, the churches and the corporate world as a whole. Indeed we should work hard to try and come up with a solution to this high loss of life.

It is the responsibility of companies which make money out of the industry to work hard to save lives and to reaffirm family life and ensure that the workers do live with their families while they work. One way of winning the war against HIV/Aids is to increase education, because knowledge is power. We also need to network and involve employers, workers, business houses, the National House of Traditional Leaders, the traditional healers and everybody.

I want to say that whilst I’m impressed with the participation at this workshop, I’m surprised that there is such a striking omission of religious communities; the churches and the mosques. I believe that the religious bodies are the largest NGO in the land; in fact, they are the largest political party, and what is more, they meet their people twice a week to preach to them and teach them, and if we talk about attitudinal change, this is the institution that we should not leave out when we want to bring about change. With this comment I want to say that the PAC will support the report of this workshop.

Miss S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We know what a horrific impact Aids has had and continues to have on our economy. It is dreadful that it has run its course into the third-largest employer in South Africa, namely the construction industry.

The MF firmly supports the intensification of HIV/Aids awareness in this industry, noting that the industry comprises persons from diverse social and economic backgrounds. Our approach to the matter has to be flexible. The MF feels that the recruitment of local labour will not only curtail the problem of HIV/Aids, but will hold families together, to prevent the separation that often results in such serious consequences that they hinder our social development.

The involvement of traditional leaders in the fight against HIV/Aids will be beneficial in terms of their auspicious influence and position in the communities. The integration of traditional healers into the conventional health care system will also assist in the reduction of HIV/Aids infections. Further, disclosure of the reality of their HIV/Aids status may awaken them to the reality of this crisis and hopefully increase awareness and concern.

The MF supports the efforts to curtail HIV/Aids and the report. I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr M M CHIKANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC aligns itself with the report as presented. We also want to reiterate the words of our chairperson, Inkosi Hlengwa, that indeed the question of HIV/Aids is quite a serious problem for all of us.

The joint approach by both parties, the IFP and the ANC, has really been commendable. We hope that the new alliance is not going to change this. We had common problems; we had common approaches; and this was definitely very positive.

We, however, are concerned that some of those who were part of the new alliance had at some stage taken this to be a political question - a football they could play around with, with which they could try to score points. We hope this shall not now influence the position of the IFP on this matter. You would remember that not so long ago the ANC was accused, especially by people from the DA, of not being serious about the question of Aids. Our Government was supposed to be steamrollered into ordering antiretroviral drugs from unknown sources outside our country. We resisted that. Today, now that we have acquired the skills to develop this drug, we realise that their campaign has since died.

We are not unaware that the campaign has been stopped, because those who had been pushing this campaign had other ideas about how we should handle problems. Why, now that we have discovered the drug, is the campaign suddenly dead? It would be the same people who today have taken on the question of workers. Over the years, Cosatu was maligned as being an organisation of communists who had no commitment to the serious cause and plight of our workers. We hope that this shall not influence the perception of the IFP, an organisation with which we have built a very good working relationship and common approach to problems. We, however, Inkosi, disagree with you when you say that the traditional leaders were not given support. Indeed, we had constraints, as the ANC and as Government, in certain areas. You would remember when we started the RDP programme, and of course I should not repeat that other people didn’t support it. But I know that the IFP was with us - they supported the RDP. We created hospitals, assets and clinics in rural areas, which were supposed to have helped us to deal with such matters. Unfortunately, owing to budget constraints, some of them were not operational when we visited them. However, we believe that we should be able to address this situation over time and that health facilities will be able to reach our people in rural areas.

I do not agree with the bishop that church leaders are excluded. However, perhaps we didn’t mention them in our report. We know that they play a central role in this matter. That they are a political party, we do not know - we will ask them next time we meet. We thought their task was to save our souls and make sure that we do not commit sins. We also do not agree with the DA assertion that South Africa has the highest rate of infection, because that is not true. It is actually not true. If you start with the wrong premise, you are going to get the wrong answer, and, I think, that is the problem. They started with that first - that we have the highest rate - and we believe that is not true. It is true that Aids is a problem, but let’s not say that we have the highest rate.

Dr Jassat just spoke and compared statistics from various countries in Southern Africa. He said that the infection rate in South Africa was about 25%. In other countries the rate is even higher than that, not that that is not a problem.

We, in the ANC, believe that this question that is maintained cannot be solved by quick-fix political agendas. It can be fixed by all of us collectively taking a position that can deal with this problem comprehensively. It does not help to rush to the newspapers and condemn the Minister of Health for opportunistic reasons - call her names - but once she makes progress, then suddenly be silent. We believe that the question of Aids affects families, it demoralises people, it destroys families. Therefore, it must be treated as a serious matter and treated urgently with all the resources possible. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

         ARMAMENTS CORPORATION OF SOUTH AFRICA, LIMITED BILL

                       (Consideration of Bill)

There was no debate.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Bill accordingly agreed to.

                  PETITION OF ROYAL SWAZI FAMILIES

 (Consideration of Report of Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs)

There was no debate.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Can I take the Deputy Chief Whip back to the 57th Order of the day? It was actually a Bill that we were referring to, not a report. Would the Deputy Chief Whip like to move for the adoption of the Bill?

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, in fact I understood that it was a Bill.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I have to put the question again. Are there any objections? No objections. Agreed to.

ALLEGATIONS REGARDING PURCHASE OF GUESTHOUSE BY CIVILIAN INTELLIGENCE
                              SERVICES

(Consideration of Report of Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence)

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mr Gibson, I understand you have been asked to speak on this matter.

Declarations of vote:

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, I rise to make a declaration on this item, and to tell you and hon members that the DA rejects this report. It was incomplete and it looked at the question of the impropriety or otherwise of the purchase, and that was the purchase of a multimillion rand guesthouse on the coast.

While it’s a relief to learn that the acquisition was not improper, in other words, there was nothing illegal or corrupt about the purchase, it’s most disappointing to me and to my party that the committee didn’t go further and do its job properly. What it should have done was to look at whether the purchase of a multimillion-rand seaside cottage was justified or not justified. In other words, they should have looked at the priorities of the department.

At a time when there is not sufficient money available for crime intelligence, this department sees fit to waste the taxpayers’ money on unnecessary luxuries. They also saw fit to attack me. They’re welcome to do that - I’ve been attacked by lots of people in my time.

We, on this side of the House, will go on pointing out unnecessary luxuries, unnecessary waste and unnecessary secrecy where they start pretending that all these things are all matters of national security, and they’re not. That committee will go ahead and do so and the department will do so without the assistance of the DA in this instance. [Interjections.]

Dr S C CWELE: Chairperson, it is very unfortunate for the Chief Whip of the Largest Minority Party to say that now, because the committee was unanimous in adopting this report. It was also unanimously agreed not to debate the report, and that’s the reason we do not have a speakers’ list. All the parties did agree that we should not debate the matter and that we take it to Parliament, and we confirmed that decision even today. I confirmed that even a few minutes ago before Mr Gibson spoke. So I’m not very sure whether his point of view is shared by his party.

But, I just want to correct a few things. To come here and say that the committee didn’t do its work - I hope Mr Gibson did read the report very carefully - on the basis of the information before the committee … [Interjections.] we didn’t say that we’ve closed the matter. We did say, at the conclusion of the report, that if there is anything contrary to what we have in our investigation as a committee, and if the Auditor-General finds otherwise, we’ll open the matter. So it is not correct that there was any superficiality on the matter.

On the issue of whether it was necessary to have such a facility, if you check very well on page two of that report, it states the reason it was necessary for this democratic Government to have such a facility. Mr Gibson, I’ll provide you with some of the reasons the committee felt that it was necessary to have this facility.

The intelligence community is not just about spying on people; it plays a critical role in negotiations. It plays a critical role in resolving conflicts either amongst you as parties or among South African citizens, or at international level. Some of those meetings cannot be held in public places such as hotels, because you would really interfere with the rights of the people who stay at those hotels. If you put up systems that disrupt the process of communication, then you would be limiting the rights of those citizens who go to those hotels as guests and not for those discussions. That is just but one of the reasons.

Secondly, South Africa is increasingly playing an important role in the negotiations for peaceful resolution of conflicts in Africa. Bringing such people over here and accommodating them in a hotel in Cape Town - Cape Town is the seat of Parliament, if I may just remind the Chief Whip of the Largest Minority Party - wouldn’t be appropriate.

Furthermore, for the Chief Whip of the Largest Minority Party to say that as a committee we attacked him is incorrect. Our report just says that Parliament must exercise caution, particularly when dealing with this matter. We are not saying that we shouldn’t deal with it. I move that the House accept the report and reject what Mr Gibson is saying. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move that the report be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Report accordingly adopted.

The House adjourned at 16:55. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                      MONDAY, 17 NOVEMBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism:

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 13 November 2003  in  terms
     of Joint Rule 160(4), classified the following Bill  as  a  section
     76 Bill:


     (i)     Older Persons Bill [B 68 - 2003] (National Assembly  -  sec
          76)

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister of Health:


     (i)     Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Amendment Bill [B  72  -
          2003] (National Assembly - sec  76)  [Explanatory  summary  of
          Bill  and  prior  notice  of  its  introduction  published  in
          Government Gazette No 25725 of 13 November 2003.]
     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on  Health  of
     the National Assembly, as well as referral  to  the  Joint  Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule  160,  on
     18 November 2003.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Translations of Bills submitted:

 (1)    The Minister for Safety and Security:


     (i)     Wysigingswetsontwerp op  Beheer  van  Vuurwapens  [W  28  -
          2003] (National Assembly - sec 75)


     This is the official translation into  Afrikaans  of  the  Firearms
     Control Amendment Bill [B 28 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 Report and Financial Statements of the National English Literary Museum
 for 2002-2003, including the  Report  of  the  Auditor-General  on  the
 Financial Statements for 2002-2003.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Speaker of the National Assembly and the Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces as co-chairpersons present the Report of the Joint Rules Committee, dated 17 November 2003, on the Implementation of the Recommendations of the Joint Subcommittee on Oversight and Accountability, as follows:

 CREDA INSERT - INSERT "1711-JRC.doc" National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security on the Anti- Terrorism Bill [B 12 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 13 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security, having considered the subject of the Anti-Terrorism Bill [B 12 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, and having conferred with the Portfolio Committees on Finance, Foreign Affairs, Justice and Constitutional Development and the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, presents the Protection of Constitutional Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities Bill [B 12B - 2003].

   The Committee further recommends that the South African Law Reform Commission be requested to investigate the possibility of a specific civil action in respect of consequential damages arising from hoaxes (including the possibility of punitive damages) separate from the expenses incurred by the security services, to deal with such hoaxes. The civil action is intended to be separate from the reimbursement order which may be made by a Court after a conviction in respect of the offence relating to hoaxes (Clause 18(2) of the Protection of Constitutional Democracy Against Terrorist and Related Activities Bill). A provision to this effect in our law is, for example, in respect of riot damage, which occurs as a result of gatherings and demonstrations (see section 11 of the Regulation of Gatherings Act, 1993 (Act No. 205 of 1993)).

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Communications on the Telecommunications Amendment Bill [B 65 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 14 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Communications, having considered the subject of the Telecommunications Amendment Bill [B 65 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill with amendments [B 65A - 2003].

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Communications on Appointment of SABC Board, dated 14 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Communications, having considered and examined the matter of the appointment of the 12 non-executive members of the Board of the SABC, referred to it for consideration and report on 30 June 2003, reports as follows:

       The Committee invited  the  public  to  nominate  persons  for
       consideration  and  recommendation  to   the   President   for
       appointment on the Board by means  of  advertisements  in  the
       print media. Responses were received from 138 individuals.
   
   
       Twenty-eight candidates were shortlisted on  21  August  2003,
       viz:
   
   
         Berger, G; Buys, F; Claassen, G; Cooper, S; Eloff, T; Funde,
         S E; Gasa, N; Gilwald, A; Gosa, N;  Kekana,  N  N;  Kok,  F;
         Lagadien, F; Louw, R; Luyt, M; Maralack,  A;  Mazwai,  E  T;
         Mbeki, A; Mkhonza,  K;  Minnie,  J;  Moholi,  P;  Msomi,  C;
         Niehaus, C; Qunta, C; Rowland, W; Swartz, D; Teer-Tomaselli,
         R; Trikamjee, A; Van Wyk, A H.
   
   
       Of the above 28 nominees, three, Messrs  Maralack,  Eloff  and
       Buys, withdrew from the process. On 23 September, Mr  Maralack
       indicated  that  the  circumstances  that  had  led   to   his
       withdrawal had changed and that he would  therefore  be  in  a
       position to be interviewed. A legal opinion  was  sought,  and
       the matter was put before the Committee,  upon  which  it  was
       resolved that he be interviewed.
   
   
       Subsequently, Mr Kekana withdrew from the process.
   
   
       The Committee spent 27 hours interviewing the 26 candidates in
       open meetings in Parliament on 9, 10, 16, 17 and 23  September
       and on 14 November 2003.
   
   
       The  Committee  accordingly  recommends  that  the  House,  in
       accordance with section 13 of the Broadcasting Act, (Act No. 4
       of 1999), make a recommendation  to  the  President  that  the
       following candidates be appointed as non-executive members  of
       the SABC Board:
   
   
         Funde, S E
         Gilwald, A
         Gosa, N
         Lagadien, F
         Maralack, A
         Mazwai, E T
         Mbeki, A
         Mkhonza, K
         Msomi, C
         Qunta, C
         Swartz, D
         Trikamjee, A
   

 Recommendations to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration on the Filling of Vacancies in Public Service Commission, dated 13 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration, having noted the correspondence from the Presidency to the Speaker regarding the filling of vacancies in the Public Service Commission, referred to it, reports as follows:

      The Committee has gone through a process  of  advertising  and
      shortlisting candidates  with  a  view  to  filling  the  five
      positions in the Public Service Commission.
   
   
      The Committee has satisfied itself that due consideration  was
      given to all the applicants in a fair  and  equitable  manner,
      taking into cognisance  the  requirements  stipulated  in  the
      advertisement  and  the  broad  strategic  objective  of   the
      democratic government of ensuring fairness.
   
   
      Furthermore,  we  have  ensured   that   representativity   is
      considered, notwithstanding the  fact  that  this  requirement
      should not be looked at mechanically, and we have  arrived  at
      the conclusion that the whole  process  was  not  in  any  way
      prejudicial or flawed. The Committee  submits  that  all  nine
      applicants were of the required specifications.
   
   
      Having concluded the  interviews,  the  following  had  to  be
      considered:
   
   
      (a) Continuity.
   
   
      (b) Gender balance.
   
   
      (c) Racial balance.
   
   
      (d) Mixing experience with new blood.
   
   
      (e) Skills and expertise.
   
   
      The Committee therefore recommends the  following  persons  to
      fill the respective vacancies in the Public Service Commission
      (endorsed by all political parties taking part in the process)
      for approval by the House:
      1.  Mrs Nozipho Mxakato-Diseko.
   
   
      2.  Mrs Koko Mokgalong.
   
   
      3.  Mr  John  Henry  Ernstzen  (Existing  Commissioner),  with
          effect from 1 January 2004.
   
   
      4.  Dr E G Bain (Existing Commissioner), with  effect  from  1
          January 2004.
   
   
      5.  Prof S S Sangweni (Existing  Commissioner),  with   effect
          from 1 July 2004.
   

 Recommendations to be considered.


                      TUESDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 2003

ANNOUNCEMENTS: National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1.1Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 18 November 2003:


     (i)     Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Bill [B  18D
          - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75)


 (2)    Bill passed by National Council  of  Provinces  on  18  November
     2003:


     (i)     Firearms Control Amendment Bill [B 28B  -  2003]  (National
          Assembly - sec 75)

1. Introduction of Bills:

 (1)    The Minister of Finance:


     (i)     Revenue  Laws  Amendment  Bill  [B  71  -  2003]  (National
          Assembly - sec 77)


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Finance  of
     the National Assembly, as well as referral  to  the  Joint  Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule  160,  on
     18 November 2003.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

1. Bills referred to Mediation Committee:

 (1)    Bill, as amended by National Council of Provinces, and  rejected
     by National Assembly on 13 November  2003,  referred  to  Mediation
     Committee in terms of Joint Rule 186(1)(b):


     (i)     Liquor Bill [B 23D - 2003] (National Assembly - sec  76)  -
          (Mediation Committee) 4.    Translations of Bills submitted:


 (1)    The Minister of Communications:


     (i)     Wysigingswetsontwerp op  Telekommunikasie  [W  65  -  2003]
          (National Assembly - sec 75)


     This  is  the  official   translation   into   Afrikaans   of   the
     Telecommunications Amendment Bill [B 65 - 2003] (National  Assembly
     - sec 75).

National Assembly:

1. Messages from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly in respect of Bills passed by Council and transmitted to Assembly:

 (1)    Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly:


     (i)     Bill, as amended, passed by Council  on  18  November  2003
          and transmitted for consideration of Council's amendments:


          (a) National Health Bill [B 32D - 2003] (National  Assembly  -
              sec 76)


          The amended Bill has been referred to the Portfolio  Committee
          on Health for a report and recommendations  on  the  Council's
          amendments.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology:

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the  South  African  Language
     Board (PANSALB) for 2002-2003, including the Report of the Auditor-
     General on the Financial Statements for 2002-2003 [RP 166-2002].


 (b)    Report and Financial Statements of the  South  African  Heritage
     Resources Agency (SAHRA) for 2002-2003,  including  the  Report  of
     the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for  2002-2003  [RP
     104-2003].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

CREDA INSERT REPORT - Insert ATC1811e.doc

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism on the Montreal and Beijing Amendments to the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer, dated 18 November 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Montreal and Beijing Amendments to the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Amendments.

 Request to be considered.

1. Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence Legislation on the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill [B 47B - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated 18 November 2003:

   The Ad Hoc Committee on Intelligence Legislation, having considered the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Bill [B 47B - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75) and a proposed amendment of the National Council of Provinces (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 13 October 2003, p 1287), referred to the Committee, reports the Bill with an amendment [B 47C - 2003].

 Report to be considered.