Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. the Leader of the House, I should like to announce with regard to the business of the House for next week, that we shall for the most part continue to deal with the Committee Stage of the Appropriation Bill. The Prisons, Industries, Commerce and Consumer Affairs and Community Development Votes will occupy the time of this House until Wednesday, after which the House will devote its attention to legislation.

The House will sit on Friday, 16 May, when the Mineral and Energy Affairs Vote will be discussed. On the same day a Standing Committee will sit in the Senate Chamber to discuss the Transport Vote.

Mr. Chairman, I claim the privilege of the half hour.

This is the first time that I am taking part in the debate on the Police Vote as the chief spokesman of the official Opposition. It is also the first time that the Vote is being debated since the hon. the Minister assumed the Police portfolio. I have no doubt that there will be many occasions on which he and I will disagree with each other, when we will be critical of each other, but I hope we will be able to find a basis of understanding of each other and of the respective roles which we fill.

A Police Force has, in my view, a vital function in any civilized society. It belongs to all the people in the country and should be free of any political or partisan bias or favour in the exercise of its responsibilities. As I see it, my role and the role of the official Opposition is to maintain and develop an empathy with members of the Force, to appreciate and understand their difficulties and their problems, while, at the same time, exercising our responsibility as Opposition politicians to ensure that the Force, in carrying out the directions of Government politicians, operates in the best interests of the public at large, irrespective of race, colour or political affiliations. In the circumstances there will certainly be occasions when it will be necessary to be critical of the operations of the Force, but I believe it will be constructive criticism in the interests of the effective relationship between the Force and the general public.

I have to point out that I have considerable sympathy with the S.A. Police, not only because of the nature of their normal duties to society, but particularly because I believe that, in the nature of the South African society, they are often called upon to perform the most unenviable tasks in terms of unpopular laws. I also believe that their conditions of service leave much to be desired.

Having said that—and I will return to these aspects shortly—let me also point out that I believe the Police Force cannot be regarded as royal game. I do not believe they are above criticism or above the law, and I do not believe that they are in a position any different from or more protected than any other section of the Public Service when it comes to assessing their efficiency and effectiveness and their general performance as servants of the public of South Africa.

I now want to come to the whole question of service conditions and the recent pay increases. We are all aware of repeated reports through the years about the fact that the personnel resources of the S.A. Police are often stretched to the limit and that the Force is constantly below strength. It is not sufficient to say, as the hon. the Minister has said by way of excuse, that there is a deficiency in all branches of the Public Service. He has said that although he is not happy about the deficiency in the Police Force, he is not unduly concerned about it, because it is a deficiency of a general nature.

There is clearly a problem in this regard, and there must be reasons why service in the S.A. Police is not considered attractive by young men seeking a new career. Certainly the nature of police activities is a special and a difficult one, but one must look further than this to find a reason for the problem of recruitment and the problem of substantial resignations. In any business organization in private enterprise the immediate target would be the conditions of service and the salary scales obtaining. There is no doubt that the conditions of service in the police are deplorable when compared with most other fields of employment. There has been general agreement across party lines that this is so. Throughout the recent debate in the public Press and elsewhere on the question of conditions of service and salary scales, the hon. the Minister has committed himself to fighting for a more realistic appraisal of the conditions obtaining in regard to the Police Force. He has indicated that he would do his level best to ensure reasonable salary increases. At this stage therefore, without doubting the earnestness of the hon. the Minister’s commitment when he made those remarks, I want to offer him my deep and sincere sympathy. I do so because there is no doubt whatsoever that in whatever representations he has made to the Public Service Commission or to the Treasury, he has failed abjectly.

The recent increases which have been announced, after high expectations have been created by all the discussions which preceded them, are in my view a total disgrace and an insult to the members of the S.A. Police.

[Inaudible.]

They place the Force in an intolerable position and offer little hope of stemming the growing tide of resignations from the Force, as they offer little hope of encouraging a flood of new recruits to the Force. The increases reflect an alarming lack of reality on the part of those who considered them and are in my view a slap in the face for thousands of loyal South Africans who are committed to performing tough and onerous responsibilities in a difficult society at a critical time in our national history. In no way do they compete with the rewards offered in most other fields of employment and they will do nothing to increase recruitment and the effectiveness or the efficiency of the S.A. Police.

Let me try to analyse some of these salary scales. They are certainly more favourable when it comes to the upper ranks of the Police Force, but even in this regard they leave a great deal to be desired. On the basis of the old rates, a colonel started at a salary of R12 600 per annum and, with increments of R600 per annum, he could achieve a salary of R16 800 at the end of the scale. In terms of the new scales, he will start at a salary of R14 880 per annum and, with increments of R660 per annum, he can achieve a salary of R18 840 at the end of the scale. This means an approximate monthly increment of something less than R200. To this moment none other than Whites have attained this rank in the Force.

In terms of the old rates, a major started at a salary of R8 640 per annum and, with increments of R420 per annum, could achieve a maximum salary of R11 580 per annum. In terms of the new rates, he will start with a salary of R9 750 and, with increments of R450 per annum, can achieve a salary of R12 900 per annum at the end of the scale. If he is a Coloured or an Indian, he would, in terms of the old rates, have started with a salary of R7 200 per annum and, with increments of R300 per annum, could have achieved a salary of R7 800 after two years. In terms of the new rates, he will start at a salary of R8 070 and eventually achieve a salary of R11 100. If he is Black, as opposed to Coloured or Indian, in terms of the old rates he started at a salary of R6 300 per annum and could eventually have achieved a salary of R8 220. In terms of the new rates, he will start at a salary of R7 410 per annum and in the end reach a salary of R9 300. All these are welcome increases, but they are extremely moderate and they do not, in my view, meet the needs of present circumstances. In addition, the discrepancy between the various racial groups is totally invidious and is not conducive to good relations between the various racial groups, even in the upper echelons of the Police Force. But when it comes to the lower ranks of the S. A. Police and one looks at the salaries, one finds a totally unrealistic assessment of the work of the people employed and the responsibilities which they perform. In terms of the old salary scales, a White constable commenced at a salary of R2 100 per annum and was entitled to annual increments of R180 until he reached the annual salary of R3 900. In terms of the new rates, a constable starting in the Force will receive a salary of R2 415 per annum, with annual increments of R195 until he achieves a salary of R4 170.

Absolutely shocking.

Thereafter he will receive increments of R225 per annum until he reaches the maximum of R5 745.

Are you not ashamed, Louis?

If a constable is Coloured or Indian, in terms of the old rates he started at a salary of R1 842 per annum, with yearly increments of R114 until he achieved an annual salary of R2 070. Thereafter, after a period of years, he could achieve a maximum salary of R4 320. In terms of the new rates he will start at a salary of R2 220 per annum, with annual increments of R195 until he achieves a salary of R4 170 per annum at the end of the scale. If he is Black, he received, in terms of the old rates, a commencing salary of R1 275 per annum and thereafter increments of R114 per annum, up to a maximum eventually of R3 540. In terms of the new rates a Black constable will commence at a salary of R1 506 per annum, will receive annual increments of R150 and will rise to a maximum of R4 170. These are interesting figures, but they are also totally depressing figures. Let us remind ourselves of the situation at present where there is a shortage of policemen, where there is general acknowledgment that police services around South Africa should be improved and increased and where there should surely be the desire and the aim to attract more bright, young South Africans into the Force in order to give what is certainly essential service to the South African public.

Let us look at the figures again. A White constable will now start at a salary of R2 415 per annum, which means about R201 per month. A Coloured or Indian constable will start at a salary of something less than R200 per month, and a Black constable at a salary of about R120 per month. In all conscience, these salary scales, although they are an improvement on the previous ones, are totally disgraceful. One need only compare them with salaries in other fields of employment. For example, in general terms in any city office, the office messenger, the man who delivers letters from office to office, the man who licks the stamps, receives a salary of more than R200 per month in most of the big cities of South Africa.

At the age of 17?

Yes, at the age of 17. Let us look at the situation in more specific terms, if the hon. the Minister challenges that comparison. Figures indicate, for example, that a deckhand in the Navy starts at a salary of R3 000 per annum. Compared with that a policeman starts at a salary of R2 415.

And he remains a deckhand.

There are other examples. A pupil photographer, a cameraman, an agricultural officer, a process photographer, a horticulturist start, according to official figures, at a salary greater than that of a constable. They start at a salary in the region of R2 600 per annum. In the category listed in the official figures as “general aid staff”, a roads clerk and a stores officer start with a salary of R2 800 per annum. In the category of clerical staff, a typist and library assistant start with a salary of R3 000 per annum and a personal secretary with R4 170 per annum.

In the light of these figures, does the Government seriously believe that the commencing salaries—R2 415 per annum for Whites, R2 220 for Coloureds and Indians and R1 506 for Blacks—can in any way be a reasonable inducement for young people to enlist in the S.A. Police?

What about the Minister’s increase?

The figures substantiate the belief that police conditions will in the end be an issue which will be thoroughly undermining of the morale and confidence of the S.A. Police. The glaring injustice and inequality in the salaries offered, deserve the urgent priority attention of the entire Cabinet this time. This is an extremely serious situation. As I have said, I sympathize with the hon. the Minister because I am sure he would have hoped to achieve far better results in the representations he has made. The end-result produces a situation which is thoroughly disturbing.

Under these circumstances one almost hesitates to point to the deficiencies in the policing of South Africa, because I realize the resources of the Police Force are strained almost to the limit, and I begin to understand the reason why. They are understaffed, overburdened and carry a responsibility to society entirely out of proportion to the salary rewards they receive.

Nevertheless, I want to raise the issue of the general policing in various parts of South Africa, particularly in the cities. There is no doubt that, though it might sound trite, there is an urgent need for the return of the Bobby on the beat. In all the metropolitan areas there are endless incidents, involving mugging, bag snatching and assaults, which could certainly be minimized if there was some tangible police presence on the streets of the cities. Elderly people are today fearful of walking in the street carrying a handbag lest they should be accosted.

There is no doubt that if it were known there were policemen, Black, Coloured or Whites, walking the streets as policemen do in other countries, these incidents would be minimized. In my own constituency of Musgrave there has been similar problems and the hon. the Minister in answer to questions has indicated that the problem really arises out of the dearth of sufficient staff and the inability of the police effectively to protect the streets because their complements in these areas is insufficient to enable them to do so.

There are a number of other matters that need to be brought before the hon. the Minister, e.g. the question of the relationship between the police and the Press, the intention of the hon. the Minister and his department to investigate the involvement of school-children in police activities, etc. I hope there will be an opportunity later in this debate to raise these questions. In the time at my disposal I have endeavoured to raise an issue of great importance, the issue relating to the conditions of police service. Conditions, which are, I have said, thoroughly deplorable.

Mr. Chairman, the train of the hon. member for Musgrave’s speech is very enlightening in the sense that he devoted his introductory speech chiefly to the question of the conditions of service of the police. This is enlightening in two respects. In the first place this points to a truth, viz. that the official Opposition has practically no points of criticism of the Police Force for the way in which the Force has been fulfilling its responsibilities over the past year. In the second place, there was a complete volte-face on the part of the official Opposition in their attitude and approach to the police. There was a time when the discussion of this vote was one of the stormiest in this House.

Wait a minute. Helen has not yet spoken.

There were always tidal waves of criticism of the police from that side of the House. As far as I am concerned, I think that this shows a pleasing change of attitude towards the police on the part of the official Opposition. I trust that this will be verified in practice to an increasing extent later on.

I want to say very briefly that the hon. member alleges that condition of service are the main cause of the shortage of members which the Police Force is experiencing, but surely this is not the only reason. If hon. members would take a look at the recruits entering the Police Force today, they would find that the recruits are excellent human material. They are academically well equipped. The vast majority of the recruits entering the Police Force these days, are matriculants and this indicates that this fact is actually refuting the complaint concerning the conditions of service of the police.

However, there is another reason and this is that we in South Africa have a general shortage of staff and the police have to compete with the private sector, the entire Public Service and the Defence Force for employees from the same group of people. I think we should speak to the private sector in this regard and we should tell them that they also have a responsibility towards the police and that they should not simply lure people away from the Police Force. Rather than luring away a suitable, disciplined and, for the private sector, a very well equipped man, as they often do, the private sector should rather try to train people themselves for the specific posts that they have.

In all friendliness and in all responsibility I want to tell the hon. member for Musgrave that he knows that 90% or more of the Police Force is most probably manned by members from one of the language groups in South Africa, viz. the Afrikaans language group, whilst it is the duty of the Police Force to serve all groups in the country. I should like to hear the hon. member for Musgrave, as a responsible front-bencher, and the new chief spokesman of the official Opposition in this regard, to ask English-speaking young men, the English-speaking section of our population, to contribute their rightful share to the Police Force too.

This is the first time that the present hon. Minister of Police is dealing with this Vote. He was appointed to his present post since we last discussed this Vote, and on behalf of this side of the House, I should like to congratulate him. He is well equipped for this post. In all the years that he sat in these benches, police matters has been one of his interests and he has entered into the spirit of and involved himself with the activities of the police, and that is why we want to congratulate him and tell him that he has made a good start. We want to wish him everything of the best and every success in dealing with this portfolio in the future.

I took a look at the annual report of the Commissioner of the S.A. Police. As far as I am concerned, it shows that the police have had a good year. There were the usual problems that generally occur in the course of administrating a department. This year the emphasis falls on one of those problems and next year it will fall on another in its turn. However, the report as such is evidence of a Police Force that is doing well, that has a good disposition and a good spirit. I think that the Commissioner of Police, genl. Geldenhuys, should be personally congratulated on the report. He has mastered the duties pertaining to his post. When one deals with him, his whole attitude and disposition shows his knowledge and understanding of his department and this shows that he knows what is expected of him and of the Force. The impression that he gave me, is that his relationship with all the senior officers, the officers and the ordinary members of the Force is of the very best, that there is a good rapport between him and his people. Therefore, I want to congratulate him and the Police Force and wish them everything of the best.

During the Easter recess, members on both sides of the House had the opportunity of visiting our police bases on the border together with the hon. the Minister and the Commissioner of Police. I think that this is the first time that a visit of this kind has taken place. I should like to thank the hon. the Minister heartily for the opportunity. For a good number of us, it was not our first visit to the border, but it was the first time that we were able to do so together with the Minister of Police.

No, it has happened regularly. Before it happened every year.

No, not with regard to the police, but with regard to the security forces up there. It happened years ago, but it has not been the case for many years now. I have been there before too, but never on these grounds.

It is very pleasant for me to be able to say that I think one can make the general statement that matters are running smoothly for the policemen on the border. We must be aware of the fact that they are not operating under the easiest of conditions there, that they are not the most ideal conditions. They are isolated and operate in thick bush and unknown territory and in dangerous conditions, war conditions. Their communication there is by vehicle and by radio and they have only the basic facilities at their disposal. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am just rising to offer the hon. the Deputy Minister the opportunity of completing his speech. [Interjections.] I mean the hon. member.

I am very grateful to the hon. Whip of the official Opposition.

I am looking into the future. I am not always a false prophet. [Interjections.]

What impressed us in general there—and I believe the hon. members opposite will agree with me—was the spirit which prevailed amongst the members of the Force. Firstly, I want to say that the members who are serving there, come from all sections of the Police Force, as well as from all age groups in the Police Force. There are the older men, the men with experience of life—and I want to allege that many of them are grandfathers already—and there are young men, those who are recently married and the bachelors. I was struck by the way in which they are always supporting one another and their cameraderie which was seen everywhere. It was an experience to see how they have set themselves up there and fitted themselves out with sleeping quarters in tents in the sandveld. At the bedsides in the tents there was either a signed photograph of a child of perhaps six or ten years old, or a photograph of some loved one or other at home. The whole disposition showed that these were men who had brought a little piece of home with them whilst they are carrying out the task that they are there for.

Was there not a Playboy centre-spread anywhere?

The hon. member for Durban Point and I could spend a long time talking about that aspect. I would have still come to that. As the hon. member knows, each one of those basis have their meeting place where the people gather together after work. That place is well decorated according to the good taste of the men on the border. I did not see any Playboys there as such.

You were not looking too hard.

You did not look in the mirror.

The bases were clean and neat everywhere. Well planned paths were laid out. In all respects, as I said, it was an example of motivated, positive men who have to do their work on the border.

I should also like to refer to the training bases where local people are trained as policemen. We were just as impressed by the standard of training there, by the quality of the men as well as by their disposition. For our part, we assured the members there of the fact that they are always in the thoughts of the people at home, that we intercede for them and that we are very grateful and appreciative of the work that they are accomplishing there in the interest of the whole of Southern Africa.

In the few minutes that remain to me, I should like to make a few remarks about specific matters. From Press reports, etc., it seems to me as if gang activities are on the increase. I do not know whether they are in fact on the increase or whether this has always been the position, but there have been several reports in the Press concerning gangs who are operating, particularly in the sphere of car theft, drugs and vice. There was a report that indicated that millions of rands per year are involved in the car theft industry. I know that there are problems particularly with regard to the fact that we have many States surrounding South Africa and that car thieves can therefore dispose of the stolen cars very easily. I know this is a matter that the police look at from time to time. It seems to me as if it is something to which we should give special attention in the future.

The second aspect concerns the borders of police stations. It appears as if this is something that has to be continually reviewed. Particularly in our urban areas, which are always expanding, a police station may be built at a stage when it is very well situated and placed centrally in the area that it has to serve. After a few years, there may have been much more expansion in a specific direction than in another, and as a result it is no longer centrally situated with regard to the area that it has to serve. In this regard, since I have never yet actually discussed a local matter in this House, I want to mention that there is an example of this type of development and expansion in my constituency, which includes the south eastern residential areas of Pretoria in the main, and I want to ask the hon. the Minister to see whether a decision cannot perhaps be made to build a police station to the west of Monument Park, which would then be centrally situated for expansion which has already taken place there and is still in progress, particularly as regards the areas to the south and south east of Pretoria. I want to resume my seat, but I just want to add that the S. A. Police have a task to fulfill with regard to the entire community. I believe that the nation of South Africa, the people of South Africa, must take note with gratitude at all times of how the police safeguard and watch over them. Problems arise from time to time, but this is in the general course of events. In general I believe that we have a Police Force of which our entire population may be proud.

Mr. Chairman, I do not intend dwelling on what has been said by the hon. members for Musgrave and Waterkloof. I do agree with much of what the hon. member for Musgrave had to say, but I do not agree with the way in which he said it.

Why not?

I shall come to that. I believe that when one discusses salaries and when one talks about R2 100 as the starting scale for a police constable, I think, although it may be quite correct, one should also point out that that is for a man who has not passed Std. 8.

They said nothing about that.

Having said that, I should like to say that I am very pleased

His life is at risk in the service of the country.

I do not think that that vociferous hon. member would run the risk of anything.

I am pleased to have taken over as the chairman of the police group in our party. I have always been deeply interested in police work and in our S.A. Police Force. I am very concerned about the welfare of our policemen and I am very proud of the fine work they do, as it is in very difficult conditions and under extremely difficult circumstances. I think that we should remember that the policemen puts his life on the line everyday. Those of us who have occasion to go out with our policemen during evening and night work—I know the hon. member for Durban Point has done this on a number of occasions—realize and come back with stories of the type of danger that they are in constantly, the type of conditions under which they are working and things that they are expected to do, and we come back with a better understanding of the difficulties and the trials that these men have. I sincerely hope that I will always be able to make a positive contribution and will always be able to assist towards improvements that will affect the quality of life of our policemen and also better prepare and equip them for the job to which they are dedicated. The hon. member for Waterkloof mentioned a recent trip to the border. I was fortunate indeed to be able to accompany the hon. the Minister on a visit to the police in South West Africa and to visit three training establishments there. As an Opposition speaker, I think that it is important, and I am duty bound to comment on the high standard of morale and the work being done by members of the police, generally in the border area, in their police stations in the northern parts of South West Africa, and to comment on the outstanding job that is being done in the training establishment where men of the three main indigenous groups, namely the Ovambo, the Kavango and the Caprivians, are being trained to what I consider is a high standard of motivation and efficiency, because these men will, of necessity, form the nucleus of the Police Force that will ultimately be required to serve those areas when the political future of the territory has been decided.

Turning now to the policemen here in South Africa, it is necessary that we must take another long and hard look at the situation in respect of numbers. This is the problem. The question of numbers is the problem. I do not think we are going to achieve anything by making comparisons or by arguing about how many hundreds, or even thousands, of policemen are needed in order to bring the Force up to strength. I think what we must do is to discuss the modus operandi. In the latest budget the pay of policemen have been revised, and on average the increase in the lower ranks was 11%, 12% and even 13%. That is the increase in respect of White policemen. After that the difference in the new service bonus, which is now payable—annually in the month of the recipient’s birthday—improves the situation even further, we find.

It is now 15%.

The hon. the Minister says it is now 15%. It follows further that, from 1 July, when the new income tax scales come into operation the policeman’s take-home pay will be improved to the tune of something like 19% to 20% more than it was prior to this year’s budget announcement.

I regret the fact that the subject of police pay has received the Press publicity that has been given it. I do not believe the criticism was justified, especially not when one compares the improvement against pay improvements over previous years. When one considers the improvements in 1980 as against improvements made in previous years, that criticism, I believe, is unfounded. That does not, however, mean to say that I think it was enough. I do not think that at all, because I do not believe we have achieved the ultimate goal yet, and I honestly think the hon. the Minister should have another very hard look at, firstly, the lot of the constable, secondly, the lot of the sergeant, and, thirdly, the lot of the adjudant-officer. He could well go through the commissioned ranks to the rank of lieutenant-colonel, but the constable is in a completely different situation. Serious consideration should be given to a complete revision of pay in this instance. Here I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon. member for Musgrave said. A continuation of the present scale will do nothing towards drawing young men into the Police Force. It is not going to bring them in in the numbers in which we should like to see them come in.

Sergeants, I believe, should also enjoy an upward adjustment, and the lower level of adjutant-officer should also receive attention. There are hundreds of policemen who are older men, sergeants, adjutant-officers. That is what they are, and that is it. They retire at that level. Their pay today is not the sort of pay that will keep men in the Police Force. This is where we are losing them. We are losing men who join the Force as constables, who have written examinations, who have achieved the rank of sergeant, and are now frustrated. They feel they cannot go on in the present circumstances and consequently they move out. The private sector is ready to snap them up. If we want to keep them and if we want to attract new men, these are the areas we have to look at very closely.

I submit sincerely that once these areas have been adequately covered, and more realistically slotted into all other scales, we will be able to look forward to a tremendous improvement in police recruitment. I believe we must look to the retention of men in the ranks of constable, sergeant and adjutant-officer. That is where we want to have them. Naturally, they must be given every opportunity of going ahead and of reaching the commissioned ranks. This is obvious.

I am sure that the officers, from the commissioner down, will agree with what I am saying. I am sure they will concur that the non-commissioned men must receive priority in respect of pay adjustments. I know it is asking a lot for a revision to be made at this stage, but I think we must appreciate that we are dealing with a situation that affects the security of every citizen. We need our policemen. We need them to be well motivated, well trained and adequately compensated for the jobs we expect them to do.

I should like to touch on what the hon. member for Waterkloof said, because I agree wholeheartedly with him. We also need more English-speaking youths to join the Police Force.

And girls.

For what it is worth I should like to make the appeal that they come forward, as English-speaking South Africans. The hon. member for Umbilo says “and girls”. I agree with that too. We do need more English speakers in the S.A. Police Force. I appeal to my English-speaking fellow South African to make himself available. I am sure he will make himself available if the starting salary and the conditions could be made more attractive for him at that level.

An examination of pay scales indicates that increases applicable to Coloured, Indian and Black policemen have percentage-wise been higher than those passed on to Whites. I am pleased to see this, and I am sure that this, coupled with any other adjustments that may be considered in the light of my appeal here today, will serve greatly to increase the intake of volunteers from those race groups. I am saying this because I sincerely hope that members of the Indian, Coloured and Black groups will come forward in greater numbers. They are going to be needed to man police stations in and around our metropolitan areas. In Durban I recently received representations from members of the South African Indian Council, ratepayers’ associations and school associations in the PhoenixSea Cow Lake-Newlands area where a police station is needed. However, I believe that a police station in that area must be staffed wholly by members of that race group to tend to the needs and requirements of the people they know best. I think the ideal situation would be achieved if the S.A. Police were able to staff police stations in these areas with members of the race groups living there. I want to ask the hon. the Minister today to keep a watchful eye on the situation as far as the provision of police stations in Coloured, Indian and Black areas is concerned. I would also like to appeal to him also to keep a watchful eye on the appalling shortage of men we experience in police stations in our White areas. We were appalled to hear that sometimes only one or two vehicles are operating at night from police stations, such as the central police station or the point police station in the Durban area to tend to complaints … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to thank the hon. member for Umhlanga for the worthy speech that he made. I am particularly grateful for the request that he made to the English-speaking community of South Africa to contribute their share towards our Police Force in future too.

Mr. Chairman, allow me to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his appointment as Minister of Police. He comes from the Western Transvaal and he is a big man. I believe that he will yet make himself a name in this department which will be just as big as he is. I wish him everything of the best.

But allow me too, Mr. Chairman, to thank every policeman, from the Commissioner of Police to those occupying the humblest of ranks, the ordinary constables, whether they be White, Brown or Black, for the loyal service that they are rendering in this country. South Africa is engaged in a war, whether we want to admit it or not. I want to extend my hearty thanks to those young men in their blue uniforms for their service, from the highest to the lowest rank.

I now want to come to the speech of the hon. member for Musgrave. I want to tell him that he may think that he is very popular today. As the chief spokesman on police affairs for the official Opposition, he may have been trying to seek popularity with his attempt to draw police salaries into this debate. I am not going to bother hon. members with figures, because one can juggle figures so easily. Recently, all that the newspapers, commission’s reports and protest meetings have been interested in, have been figures.

I do not want to say that everything is running smoothly for police officers, and I just want to tell the hon. the Minister—and this is an opinion that I express fearlessly— that one will not attract young men, whether they are English- or Afrikaans-speaking—to the Police Force, by offering them inadequate salaries. Now I want to tell the official Opposition that they are not the only mediators for these people. They should have also stepped into the breach for these people, but they criticized them for the Biko case and cast a poor reflection on the Police Force of South Africa. They should not have criticized them then. I thank them for the service that they have rendered—I do not criticize them—and I say this morning with all responsibility in this House that the public of South Africa will have to be educated in order to give these people the better salary that is their due.

You are just cross because we got in first.

They will have to do that. There are few young men who enter the Police Force today—and let us forget about their salary and qualifications for a moment—who do not have a Std. 10 certificate. Now I also want to thank the women of South Africa who have declared themselves ready to enter this service. Many of those people are highly qualified.

It is all very well to tell someone that he is doing well and that he is loyal, but my father also taught me that no matter how brave and good one may be, sometimes one cannot fight on an empty stomach. I am not saying that this is what is happening in the Police Force, but I am saying that the beginner in the Police Force deserves a better salary. We can make a request for teachers and for nurses, and this is all well and good, but these people who are serving in the face of war, must be better paid.

I have often seen how they behave and I have often accompanied on their night patrols, and these young men are working under difficult conditions. Therefore I say once again, and I mention the matter by name, one can no longer work for R200 and R300 per month today. I do not want to draw comparisons now—the hon. the Minister must not hold it against me—but a trained “boss boy” in the mines today—I also have experience of this—earns R600 per month and in addition he gets everything free. All he has to buy from that, are his clothes. Over and above his free accommodation, his food and his sports facilities, he can eat as much as he likes and on top of all these privileges, he receives R600 per month on the mines. I am not alleging now that we should compete with these big industrialists and mining magnates, but we have an honour and a debt that we must pay these people for the inconvenience that they often have to endure.

I am a person who never discusses his constituency, but today I want to thank the hon. the Minister for the planned police station with its buildings which is going to be built in my constituency. The hon. the Minister and I are still arguing about where it should be, but he is more important than I am and I shall have to give in in the end. I am grateful that the new police station is going to be built, because the present one is inconvenient and inappropriate. I am looking forward to the new one being completed during this hon. the Minister’s time, perhaps in my time too, but it is rapidly passing, and in the time of the Commissioner too. I hope that we will have the honour of turning the first sod for that complex in the near future and that we will also have the privilege of opening it.

I want to thank the section of the Force in Stilfontein and Orkney today for their loyalty towards myself and my people there.

I know they work hard, but I believe that they can look forward to our building that fine building for them in the near future, which will give them more satisfaction than at present.

If the hon. the Minister wants to criticize me or scold me a bit, it does not matter, but I say that we can gloss over things and juggle with figures. I am interested in what the men take home and how they pay their accounts. What is their expenditure? The hon. the Minister must tell the taxpaying public, the hon. the Minister of Finance and the Cabinet that we must look to the interests of these men in the future. The PFP are not the only mediators on their behalf. The NP is always doing so. However, the PFP must not intercede for salaries today and criticize them again tomorrow when one policeman makes a mistake.

Mr. Chairman, I am on the same wavelength as the hon. member for Stilfontein, and I am in fact simply continuing.

I should like to talk about the most disciplined people in our country, those who serve South Africa faithfully without ever threatening to strike, and showing no interest in trade unions. These are the people of whom this hon. House depends for its future and prosperity. I have known this division of the Public Service with all its problems, including salary problems, since 1937. Throughout the years, when police salaries have come up for discussion, it has been front-page news in all our newspapers. These latest salary increases are no exception. Of all the cuttings that I have in this regard, I am going to quote two newspaper reports only. The first one is an article by Gerhard Pieterse entitled “Joburg police are at breaking point” and this appeared in the Sunday Times of 27 April 1980. I quote three short paragraphs—

If the crime solution rate has really dropped to less than 2% in Johannesburg, it is a shocking state of affairs. It must be remembered that the Sunday Times links this state of affairs to what they call the disgraceful salary increases in the S.A. Police.

The second report that I want to quote from, appeared three days later in Die Burger of 30 April under the heading “Brigadier oor salarisse—dié polisiemanne moet nou loop”. It reads—

This article creates the impression that salary increases was so considerable that policemen who were not satisfied, could leave at once. This is a completely different story to the one that the Sunday Times tells.

We are living in times when no one can say that policemen should simply leave in certain circumstances. If the brigadier in question put his case like that, it is a great pity. I am more inclined to agree with him when he asks the men later on to be patient and stay in the Force.

If we combine these newspaper reports, statistics and our own knowledge and analyse them, there are various factors that come to the fore. Firstly, we have a shortage of 2 700 policemen, which we cannot afford under the present circumstances. Secondly, we are losing more policemen who are purchasing their discharge than we can train. Thirdly, reservists and schoolboys can make valuable contributions under certain circumstances, they can never replace the trained policemen. Fourthly, I do not want to allege that dissatisfaction prevails in the S.A. Police Force, but there is no doubt that there is some unhappiness in the three lower ranks of the Police Force.

Nor must we doubt the most important reason for this, and it is the salaries. The men believe that they are not receiving fair payment for the services that they render. I should like to explain that the latest salary increases are most probably the highest in the history of the police. It is not so much these salary increases that are giving rise to the dissatisfaction, but over the past 50 years the Police Force has always been the stepchild of the Public Service. Over the past 50 years there have never been channels of communication open between the Ministry and the lower three ranks in the Police Force.

Recently a bank manager told me that he had appointed four policemen during the course of one week, and that, at the time, taking everything into account, each one of those ex-policemen was earning R100 per month more than the Police Force had been able to offer them. In this regard my argument is that if a private institution can pay such a policeman R100 per month more, such a private institution can surely afford to train its own clerical staff too. These ex-policemen who were trained as security men and investigating officers, were appointed in clerical positions. In such a case a private institution can surely afford to train its own people, or alternatively they can surely afford to pay the necessary tax in order to ensure that these people receive their rightful salary.

In this country of ours it has become customary and has even become a question of faith, when it comes to salaries and wages, to believe that the State cannot compete with the private sector. I am aware of this and realize that there are problems, but the sooner we move away from this incorrect concept, the better. The men in the S.A. Police, the nurses and the other public servants are not doing an inferior job. Every task that is accomplished, has value, regardless of whether it is done for the State or the private sector. The State and the private sector must begin to think along these lines to an increasing extent and become aware of the facts.

The story about patriotism, security, pension benefits, medical benefits and other benefits is a hackneyed, worn-out refrain and it no longer cuts any ice. Our people, including the policemen amongst others, need money to make a decent living. Percentage salary increases unfortunately mean that the salary gap between the lower and higher ranks becomes increasingly wider. This causes a feeling of inferiority in the lower ranks. Whilst the higher ranks are not complaining about their salaries, they are nevertheless frustrated because the necessary number of men do not remain in the lower ranks of the S.A. Police. What is the use of having a good top structure and all the knowledge and skill to organize a strong S.A. Police Force, but the men to fill the posts, are simply not there?

Today I want to thank the hon. the Minister for what he has already done for the S.A. Police, but I want to ask him to open up two channels, viz. the channel of the salaries for the people in the lower ranks up to and including himself, and secondly the channel of promotion. If this is done, I want to assure the hon. the Minister that we will have the happiest, most efficient Police Force in the world in future.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to dwell briefly on the role of the police in the recent—and perhaps I should not say “recent”—school boycott by Coloured children. In general I want to say that the behaviour of the police during the course of these events was praiseworthily disciplined and in this way had a moderating effect on the course of events. In my modest opinion, there were only two cases of over-reaction during recent times— and I shall refer briefly to them. I think that the use of tear gas at Athlone and the use of truncheons on one occasion on the Witwatersrand were events which can still be investigated, since I think more restrained behaviour could be applied in future in this regard.

It was necessary.

There is a difference of opinion on that. With all respect, I want to tell the hon. the Minister that according to the facts at our disposal— and I concede that these may possibly not include all the facts—this can be investigated yet again and it was not necessarily called for.

What I want to say, however, is that this state of affairs is very much better than the events during the riots of 1976, not to mention the free-for-all during the Fox Street incident prior to that. I want to express my appreciation to the police for their behaviour which was calm in general and at the same time I want to stress how extremely important it is to act in a calm, disciplined manner in such circumstances. It is just as easy for a policeman to turn a situation of potential conflict into one of real conflict as it is for a participant in a protest march, a boycott or a similar activity. Sometimes this type of situation is so tense that the smallest spark can cause the powder barrel to explode. Under such circumstances, it ought to be the pride of the police and the authorities to maintain peace through self-control, even under the greatest provocation, rather than to have to restore peace later on by brute force after conflict has already begun. I am pleased to be able to say that this appears to be the case at this stage.

However, I have a point of criticism to raise with regard to the hon. the Minister’s own approach in these circumstances. According to Press reports, the hon. the Minister tried to convene a meeting of the so-called Committee of 61 in an attempt to put an end to the school boycott. The way in which this was tackled—and here I am relying on Press reports, because although I tried to obtain greater detail by means of a question in the House, I did not receive any detail …

Did you not listen when I answered the question yesterday?

Yes, I listened to it, but unfortunately the detail that I was looking for, was not there. It may have been a misunderstanding. However, I do not want to spend time on it now.

According to the Press, the way in which this was arranged, was that security policemen were sent to the homes of the members of this committee to transport them and to gather them in a hall where they were addressed by the local commander of the Security Police. They were then informed that the hon. the Minister wanted to meet them. I feel that an error of judgment was made here. I base that statement on two considerations. Firstly, I think that the way in which the meeting was convened, was wrong. We must understand that in this situation, there was considerable mutual distrust between races and that, as far as the Coloured children was concerned, one could hardly hold it against them if they were not inclined to attend a meeting that was convened in such a way. A notice could possibly have been served on them, from the hon. the Minister personally, or something like that. I want to say in all honesty, that if I had been in the position of those Coloured children, I myself would not have been inclined to attend that meeting.

Now I come to my second point of criticism in this regard. Apparently the hon. the Minister of Coloured Relations was busy with, and involved in, negotiations or potential negotiations with some of these children, and since the points of criticism, the reasons for the boycott, concerned his department, I feel it would have been better if the negotiations had been undertaken by him, and him alone. I think a strategic mistake is often made when two different people from two different departments are involved in negotiations on such a delicate matter. I respect the hon. the Minister’s viewpoint. I respect the fact that he wanted to put an end to the boycott. This is praiseworthy, but I feel that he committed an error of judgment in trying to convene this meeting, and more specifically by the way in which an attempt was made to convene the meeting.

Recently, there were reports in the Press about the boom in the security services in our urban areas, particularly in Cape Town. It was mentioned that firms who hire out security guards, who sell and rent alarm systems, and who render similar services, are making a great deal of money now. This phenomenon has a bearing on the Police Force. Firstly, it unfortunately casts an unfavourable reflection on the efficiency of combating crime, in our cities in particular, and here I am referring in particular to the protection of people’s property and the insurance of their personal safety. I sympathize with the police. We all understand why this is the case. There is a serious shortage of staff in the Police. It may be that policemen can be used more effectively in certain circumstances, but I do not want to express an opinion on this. Therefore, I do have sympathy with the police, but I feel that this reflection which is being cast on the police is of the utmost importance to the authorities.

However, there is a second aspect. The boom in the security industry actually means that the function of the police is being taken over, in certain spheres in any event. The third point, perhaps the most important—is that it is this type of industry that is enticing policemen away from the Force with more attractive incomes and conditions of service. That is why I feel the hon. the Minister should give his serious attention to it.

Give us an example of what you mean.

It is strange for someone to ask that. I am talking about security services that are earning a great deal of money, a sector that is showing tremendous growth. These people are drawing policemen away from the Force because they are offering better salaries and conditions of service. Of course, this is related to the other two points that I have mentioned. That hon. member must listen. How can he talk about examples now? I have stated the matter as clear as can be.

I want to associate myself with what the hon. member for Waterkloof said about the increase in gang activities. This is the case in Cape Town in particular. It is a situation which is generating a great deal of concern amongst the public. Only a few days ago, a businessman was assaulted in Buitengracht Street, one of the main streets of Cape Town at about 6 p.m. I do not know whether the person is still alive, but it is unlikely that he would have survived such an attack. A gang attacked him and stabbed him in the head and the body. There is no instant solution for such a problem, but I should like to suggest that the hon. the Minister considers introducing more foot patrols. Once again, it will depend to a large extent on the staff strength in the Police Force at a given time.

I also want to associate myself with what was said by the hon. member for Musgrave about police salaries. Police salaries still compare poorly with other salaries. No matter what the increases were, and what the previous conditions might have been, their salaries still compare disgracefully poorly to those in the private sector and other sections of the Public Service. The hon. member for Umhlanga mentioned that some of those people had not passed Std. 8. Academic training is surely not so relevant in some police duties to justify such a low salary. I think the comparison which the hon. member for Musgrave drew, is a very important one. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Green Point referred to various matters. I agree wholeheartedly with the tribute that he paid to the police for their behaviour during the recent boycott of schools by Coloured school-children. I assume the hon. the Minister will provide him with adequate replies to the other aspects that he mentioned.

He referred to the image of the police. I think one could further enhance on this by referring to the Steyn report. In his report, Mr. Justice Steyn mentioned the fact that the police must be considered as the friend of the people. I think it is the duty of all of us to enhance the image of the S.A. Police, but unfortunately, due to the nature of the activities with which the police are involved, this image does not come to the fore so clearly, because they are involved in combating crime and maintaining peace and rest.

However, the official Opposition cannot be absolved in this regard, because they are only too inclined to criticize the image of the police. They are also only too inclined to say that the police are too enthusiastic in applying so-called unpopular laws. The hon. member for Musgrave has just referred to this. I want to tell him that a criminal or a potential criminal does not fear the police because they implement unpopular laws, but merely because he is afraid that he will be caught. This is the crux of the whole matter.

I think it is also the task of the Press to develop the idea that the police are the friends of the people. In this regard I want to refer to an example of the type of journalism which goes against the grain. I am referring to an article by a certain Andries van Wyk that appeared on 3 February this year in Rapport, in which he referred in scornful language to “polisiemannetjies”. It must be borne in mind that the terrorist attack at Silverton was most probably one of the most serious events of that nature in recent times. Seething anger was seen amongst the crowd. Every moment was priceless in planning and implementing the freeing of the hostages. Decisions on matters of life and death had to be taken rapidly in an atmosphere charged with emotion and tension. Then Andries van Wyk says—

He is the only journalist that I have heard using this type of language. I wonder whether his own contribution is worth a roll of toilet paper. A Press card definitely does not mean that the representative of a newspaper is entitled to be provided with a running commentary on the progress of the police investigation or action. Least of all is it his right to endanger his own life or the lives of the hostages, the police or the public. In the nature of things, the Police Act provides amongst other things that it is the responsibility of the police to maintain law and order, and no irresponsible behaviour can be allowed on the scene of the action. I mention this in passing.

As I said, it is the duty of all of us to develop the image of the police purposefully. That is why I welcome the new initiatives being made by Brig. Grobbelaar and his competent staff at the Directorate of Public Relations. The main purpose of this directorate is the uncreasing, purposeful, definite promotion and enhancement of the image and the activities of the S. A. Police. It is essential for the public to be kept informed about the extensive functions of our Police Force. We have seen to what extent the police are keeping up with tracing people who are guilty of stock theft. We saw this recently on television. We saw how effective the police are here in the Western Cape, with the aid of police dogs. The staff of the directorate, which consists of a brigadier, a colonel, two lieutenant-colonels, three captains, a lieutenant and four constables, as well as administrative staff, are doing a tremendous job. This is a centre which deals, amongst other things, with the collection and processing as well as the distribution via Press and radio, of news and information about police affairs so that there may be a factual source of information. Therefore, information is put at the disposal of the Press and radio more easily and more promptly.

Last year we had a fiery debate, on this very prohibition of the publication of untruths with regard to the police. In this regard the Steyn report agreed with the Government in their argument that, in the nature of things, in terms of section 27B of the Police Act, the State must prove that an untruth has been published and that it must be done beyond any reasonable doubt. The onus or proof which rests on the accused, simply means that he believed that the report in question was reasonably possible, due to a preponderance of possibilities. The commission is also of the opinion that the intention of section 27B of the Police Act is an attempt to prevent malicious or careless reporting.

The Directorate has three subdivisions, viz. its liaison section, decentralized liaison section and publicity section. As far as advertising is concerned, I want to emphasize that this also includes looking after the police museum and the police newspaper, Servamus. In the annual report of the police we see that this division of the directorate won a gold medal and two bronze medals at the Rand Easter Show, and a silver medal at the Pretoria show. This is something on which I should like to extend my hearty congratulations to them.

The police museum in Pretoria is a sight that we should all visit. I think the Directorate of the S.A. Police are doing excellent work. I think that the Directorate also learned valuable lessons from the Silverton incident.

In conclusion I should like to mention in this House the recent step taken by the Brakpan Town Council. After provision had already been made for budget purposes the town council of Brakpan spent money from its own funds in order to erect a lookout post at the police station in the town, in order to safeguard the area there and the police station itself. I think that Brakpan has set an example to the rest of South Africa in this regard. In this way Brakpan has identified and associated itself completely with the difficult task of the police. This also reminds one of what happened in Booysens. Therefore, I should like to suggest that other municipalities also follow this example.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the hon. member for Brakpan and to express my appreciation for the behaviour of the Brakpan Town Council. I should also like to associate myself with the hon. member for Brakpan in what he said about the image of the police and the attacks on the police.

There is no doubt that the attacks from outside, attacks by the enemies of South Africa, have been aimed at police stations in recent times. It was very noticeable that there was an attack on the Moroka police station, on the Soekmekaar police station, as well as on the Booysens police station. It is also noticeable that a few days ago in South West Africa, an attack was carried out on police stations in South West, by Swapo terrorists. One cannot help wondering why this is happening. There is no doubt that these attacks are made on police stations because the policemen and the police station are the symbols of authority in South Africa, because they are also the symbols of the existing order, the symbols of law and justice in South Africa. Those who want to replace the existing order, are obliged to break down the symbol of that existing order and the symbol of law and justice. This is why it is being done.

Now we know that a physical onslaught is being aimed at the police, as the symbol of the existing order. Therefore, we ought to ask ourselves whether a psychological onslaught is also being directed at the Police Force for the very reason that it represents that symbol. I say that such a psychological onslaught is in fact being made. Many examples of it can be mentioned. One can point out examples of less serious cases, but there are examples of more serious cases too.

However, when we take a look at the psychological onslaught that is being launched, we must also look at the role that the Rand Daily Mail is playing in this regard. I cannot give clear enough expression to my contempt for the way in which the Rand Daily Mail sometimes refers to a police station. After the Moroka police station was attacked one night, the Rand Daily Mail announce it as follows in a glaring poster: “Attack on cop-shop” or words to that effect. They referred to the police station as a “cop-shop”. These newspaper posters were put up in the streets directly opposite Soweto and Johannesburg. I want to say that the effect of those posters was to insult …

And humiliate.

… and humiliate the police station and the policemen and affect their image. The Rand Daily Mail must now tell us why they did this. Why does a police station that is attacked have to be referred to as a “cop-shop”? I should like to hear the Rand Daily Mail’s reply in this regard. I think that the Rand Daily Mail owes South Africa an answer in this regard.

The S.A. Police Force very often finds itself on the horns of a dilemma. The objective of the police is to apply the law. It is the duty of the police to ensure that crimes do not take place and if there are criminals, to bring them to book. The police do not make the laws. Very often we find that an attitude of “if you do not like the message, you kill the messenger” is adopted in South Africa. We find that the police are attacked because they are simply implementing the laws and taking action when the laws are broken.

I now want to say that the hon. member for Green Point’s attack on the police concerning their behaviour with regard to the school boycotts, is totally unjustified in my opinion. There were clear transgressions of the law during the boycotts. The police are subject to the authority of the Government and they have to implement the laws. The police must act with the necessary understanding and sympathy—and they do so too. The police only take action when a specific law has been broken. I think it is wrong to refer reproachfully to the police, but to say nothing about those who break the laws. We heard today the police are being blamed for taking action against the boycotters, the people who throw stones and broke the laws.

I want to ask the hon. member for Green Point whether he does not think that one should start at the beginning. Does he not think that one should also point a finger reproachfully at the people who boycotted the schools and broke the laws? I should like to ask the hon. member across the floor of the House whether he can tell us whether the PFP was in favour of or opposed to this boycott. [Interjections.]

We are discussing the Police Vote. Have you not realized it yet?

I should very much like to know. Is the PFP in favour of or opposed to the boycotts? [Interjections.] If we want to start making reproaches when the police take action because a law is being broken, we must start at the beginning, viz. the man who broke the law.

Tell us whether the boycott was breaking the law.

I also want to refer to a remark which the hon. member for Green Point made in his speech which preceded the speech of the hon. member for Brakpan. He spoke about the private bodies who appointed security officers and then he said that the function of the police was being taken over by those security officers. This, he said, is an indication that the police can no longer prevent crime—and I think these were his words—no longer protect the citizens, the companies and the businesses. As a result of the unfortunate condition in which the world prevails today, the appointment of security officers by the private sector itself has become a world phenomenon today. If one were to enter any building in the USA today, one would pass security officers working for the owners of those buildings. Throughout the world, the officials of large business undertakings have to make their own arrangements to ensure their security. This is an indication of the situation in which the Western World finds itself today. However, this is not something for which the S.A. Police can be reproached by hon. members in this House. I do not believe that the hon. member for Green Point understands the cause, the origin and the extent of this world-wide problem if he wants to reproach the police in this regard today.

I shall conclude by saying that I also want to express the greatest appreciation on behalf of my voters for the important work that the police are doing and I want to say without a doubt that South Africa appreciates their services.

Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the hon. member for Pretoria Central that what we in these benches are in favour of is the removal of those genuine grievances which lead to boycotts. We are also in favour of repealing laws which are unjust, discriminatory and unpopular with the law-abiding elements among the Black people, people who are turned by those laws into statutory criminals. Therefore we are in favour of the repeal of those laws which make the police unpopular among the Black people. It is one of the reasons why police stations are the target for attacks during unrest, as they were during the 1976 unrest in the townships and as they have been in recent months. It is the police who have the unenviable task of trying to implement laws that are very unpopular with the Black people. We are, as I say, in favour of the removal of laws which are discriminatory. If that were done the police would not have the difficult task that they do have.

Do you encourage the boycotts?

I wonder if hon. members could conduct their conversations outside the House instead, of across the floor of the House. I want to give the House a few examples of the inordinate amount of time that the police have to spend on implementing these unpopular laws. I get these figures from the annual report of the Department of Police, which I have taken the trouble to read and which gives a lot of very interesting statistics. The annual report, which deals with the period up to 30 June 1979, shows that there were over 20 800 cases of curfew infringements which the police had to deal with, curfew which prevents an adult Black person from being on the streets of a city after eight, nine or ten o’clock, whatever the curfew hour happens to be. But I want to tell hon. members that every self-respecting criminal has got his papers in order. [Interjections.] He is not going to run around and be arrested for a pass offence. He is not going to run the risk of being arrested for that. His pass will be in order; his reference book will be in order and he will have a curfew document. He has other things to worry about; so he is going to see to it that he is not arrested for a petty statutory crime when he is thinking of breaking into a bank or robbing a household of thousands of rands worth of goods.

There were 129 984 cases relating to the registration or production of documents, 149 925 cases relating to unlawful trespass and 144 796 cases relating to Black urban areas. That is what the police are spending their time on. There were 24 467 cases reported of the illegal possession of beer. The man in charge of revitalizing and improving the image of Soweto, Mr. Rive, has already recommended …

Why blame the police? Blame Parliament for that. The police did not make the laws; they just apply them.

The hon. the Minister does not seem to get the point. The police have got to spend their time on these petty crimes; they have to spend their time turning law-abiding citizens in a normal society, law-abiding since they do not steal, rob or assault, into statutory criminals through the implementation of these laws.

That is your same old story.

It is because the NP does not change that I have to say the same thing again and again. The figures come to Parliament every year and they get worse. If the police could be relieved of those tasks they could spend their time looking for the genuine criminals who are committing violent crimes all over South Africa. I agree with every word the hon. member for Musgrave said. Violent crimes is a serious problem in South Africa these days, and it applies to every major city and suburb, including my own constituency. In every constituency in South Africa the incidence of violent crime is increasing. I know it is a world-wide urban phenomenon, but the point I am trying to make is that, instead of our police being able to devote themselves to the apprehension of criminals of this type, they spend their time dealing with curfew offenders, registration and documentation offenders, trespassers and people illegally possessing beer. It is absurd. We have got to the situation where there are just no Bobbies on the beat and no policemen at police stations when urgent calls come through asking for help citizens require when they are combating violent criminals.

I wonder whether the hon. the Minister has looked at the figures concerning violent crime and has seen how it is continually increasing. On 13 February 1980 I asked the hon. the Minister a question about violent crime in Soweto. There were 648 cases of murder last year. That is up from 368 cases in the previous year. So it is continually increasing. There were 1 151 cases of rape, over 7 500 cases of assault with intent and 3 549 cases of robbery. The point I want to make is that of these violent crimes, the number brought to trial is abysmally low. Less than a quarter of the cases of murder were brought to trial, less than half of the cases of rape and violent assault and a third of the cases of robbery, were brought to trial. This is what the police should be spending their time on, not these petty statutory crimes. The hon. the Minister must use his influence with the hon. the Minister of Justice, the Cabinet and the caucus of the NP, which is the party which has the power to do something about these discriminatory laws. I pointed out during the Vote of the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development that in June last year the Government’s White Paper accepted the abolition of curfews as recommended by the Riekert Commission. Yet it is still under investigation.

It was not accepted unconditionally.

Read it again. It was accepted. But whatever conditions there were, if any, the position is that a whole year has elapsed since it was accepted. When are we going to have the abolition of curfew which results in the apprehension of thousands of people?

I want to say something about the behaviour of the police during the Coloured school boycott. I agree with what the hon. member for Green Point said, viz. that by and large the police acted with very good restraint, which is certainly very different from the way they behaved during the 1976 riots. I am very glad to see that orders have been issued that the use of force is to be kept to a minimum and that no guns should be used at all in cases like these. That is certainly to the credit of the hon. the Minister of Police. However, there was an incident in Johannesburg, and here I do not agree with the hon. the Minister when he says it was necessary. Indeed, charges have been laid against the police by people who were assaulted with batons, chased into houses in the Coloured area near the West Reef school where a large number of children had gathered together in the grounds of that school. The police entered the grounds of the school and baton-charged those children. They allowed not nearly enough time for more than 1 000 children to get out of the one gate that they were ordered to exit by before they baton-charged and arrested the 300 or 400 children that remained there after the 10 minutes, or whatever time was given, for them to disperse had expired. [Interjections.]

Order!

Was there a need to enter the school grounds? I do not believe that school grounds should be included in a ban on meetings, because it is a safety valve. The children consider the school grounds to be their domain.

Sure, sure, but who is paying for those school grounds?

The taxpayers, and among those taxpayers are the parents of those children.

They expect the law to be obeyed.

It is a foolish law that does not allow the safety valve whereby children can demonstrate peacefully in their own school grounds, and if the Government has any sense it will change that law. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman the hon. member for Houghton is beautifully dressed today, but I must say the speech she has made, was less beautiful.

I am glad you like my taste in clothes.

I really mean it when I say that the hon. member is very smartly dressed. However, as we know from experience, the hon. member is simply incapable of refraining from using unbridled language in criticizing the Police. She is simply incapable of doing that.

What I said was not unbridled.

I think we simply have to reconcile ourselves to that, because she cannot help it. What has the hon. member said again today? These school boycotts have been going on for weeks now. For weeks there has been the potential danger of clashes between the pupils and the police. However, the police are performing their task admirably. During one single incident in Johannesburg in all the weeks that this boycott has already been going on however, the police have, according to the hon. member for Houghton, created an incident. Did we hear from her now about all the weeks in which the police have acted in an exemplary fashion and have acted with restraint, in spite of provocation? No, the hon. member highlights one incident and makes a fuss of it. [Interjections.] Yes, that is what she did. The hon. member also says the legislation that prohibits meetings, should not apply to school grounds.

It would be sensible.

The hon. member says “it is a foolish law” that lays down something like that. Whom is the hon. member seeking to prompt now? Does the hon. member now wish to prompt the pupils to say that this Parliament has made a “foolish law” by, inter alia, forbidding pupils to have meetings on the school grounds?

We say this to people like you. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Green Point is saying that they say this to people like me but does the hon. member not know, then, that things said here, are also echoed outside? Do the hon. members wish to prompt the pupils outside to believe that it is a “foolish law”?

They know that. We need not tell them that.

That is the sort of thing we get from those hon. members.

She is advocating transgressions of the law.

The hon. member for Houghton also says that the Police should not occupy their time with influx control measures. She says the unlawful influx is increasing. Is it perhaps the fault of the police that it is increasing?

No, it is not their fault.

Then, why does the hon. member use that as an argument?

You know nothing about that.

The hon. member for Green Point should rather keep quiet now, because every time he shakes his head, we can hear it on this side. He should rather keep quiet. Then we shall be able to carry on with a proper debate.

I wish to tell the hon. member for Houghton that the action of the police in respect of influx control measures is in itself a preventative measure. This is in itself a measure to prevent crime. The hon. member is constantly telling us in this House that the unemployed people are the people who commit crimes; and that is true. The police are engaged in preventing them streaming into our cities and towns where unemployed people create the potential of a higher incidence of crime. Consequently, the police are in fact preventing crime in acting against these people.

They are looking for work.

It is the task of the S.A. Police in South Africa today to maintain law and order. They are the friends of the people who are on the side of peace and law and order. We on this side of the House are very grateful to the S.A. Police for maintaining law and order and peace in South Africa as they are doing.

In spite of the Progs.

The Police have proved over the years that they are not the friends of people who are out to disturb law and order and peace and quiet in South Africa, but that they are their enemies. They have proved that they are the merciless enemies of transgressors of the law and of the people who are out to destroy good order in South Africa. They have proved this effectively over many years. We need merely call to mind the outstanding work they did at Rivonia and, more recently, at Silverton. However, the maintenance of law and order is a difficult task. I think we would all agree that nobody should place any obstacles in the way of the police to make their task more difficult. We have to strengthen their position and tell them that we are on their side when they act to enforce law and order and peace and quiet in South Africa.

When we look around us, it does not require a prophet—and the hon. member for Pretoria Central has also referred to this—to see that good order in South Africa is being very seriously threatened to an increasing extent today. We cannot doubt that our enemies are really out to disturb the peace and quiet here. They are doing this to an increasing extent and they are prepared to translate their words into action in South Africa. We had the attack at Silverton, the attack on the police station at Booysens, etc.

The transgression of the laws of our land is being condoned and openly encouraged today, and violence is also being mentioned in the same breath. We had the latest example of this from the meeting of the S.A. Council of Churches at Hammanskraal. In a report in Oggendblad of 8 May 1980, one reads the following under the heading “S.A.R.K.-opmars na Pretoria gevra”—

But what was the resolution of the meeting?

Massabetogings moet steeds gehou word.

They decided against that.

It also concerns the fact here that there are people in a responsible position in South Africa who are openly advocating the transgression of laws. I read further—

I, as an ordinary member of the House and as a representative of ordinary people outside the House, wish to state most emphatically that if people advocate these things, they are going to clash with the police, and that if they continue along their present course, then confrontation with the police is inevitable. We are telling those people that we have no sympathy with them. We are not prepared to condone this sort of thing happening in South Africa, and regardless of the consequences, we will stand by the police who are engaged in maintaining law and order in South Africa, because the System of values for which the police are fighting today, are also our values. These are things we wish to uphold in South Africa. Consequently we say to them: “Go ahead and maintain what is of value to all of us in South Africa.”

Mr. Chairman, I should like to raise a matter which is the subject of strong representations from time to time, namely the reintroduction of policemen on the beat in urban areas. Last year, too, pleas were made for this during the discussion of this Vote. In this connection I should like to talk about Bloemfontein, although I assume that it will to a greater or lesser degree be applicable to other cities as well. The hon. the Minister wrote to me in connection with another matter and pointed out, among other things, that the crime rate in Bloemfontein was relatively low compared to that in other cities. As the hon. the Minister probably knows, however, every city has its own unique character, ideas and traditions. In support of this I should like to mention that a retired senior staff officer once wrote to me that in his opinion, the Bloemfontein public was more critical of the local crime position than was the case elsewhere. With its larger number of rural inhabitants, Bloemfontein is more easily alarmed by sporadic cases of crime than people in other cities, for example, with a more heregoneous population. He expressed the interesting idea that an already well-disposed Press should be influenced from a high level to create a more positive image in respect of crime than has been the case up to now. Reporting, he says, can be of a more informative nature as against mere uninformed admonition.

To the credit of our local newspaper, Die Volksblad, I should like to say that this newspaper published a series of pictures on its front page on 21 December 1979 depicting a number of people who were all potential victims of pickpockets and bag-snatchers. The newspaper published photographs which had all been taken in the Bloemfontein city centre, and the pictures showed the following: A girl putting money into a parking meter while her handbag is hanging open on her arm; a man’s whose cheque book is almost falling out of his trouser-pocket; a man who is stuffing a few ten-rand notes carelessly into his shirt-pocket; a woman selecting shoes who has apparently quite forgotten about her handbag and purse lying behind her; a woman with a purse in her hand and another woman rummaging through her handbag on the sidewalk. The heading which resulted from the observations of this newspaper was: “Die oop deur lok die dief.”

In my opinion there is no doubt about the fact that carelessness on the part of the public generally invites pickpockets, bag-snatchers and other gangs to commit their crimes. Elderly people, women and children in particular are the victims of bag-snatchers, and they must be warned to be even more careful.

I am quite sure that the public has just as important a task and function as the police as far as street robbery is concerned.

Together with this, one could also refer to the terrorist attacks occurring in our country. It would be short-sighted not to be prepared for an intensification of these subversive onslaughts by armed infiltrators, as in the case of the incident at the Silverton Bank. We must realize, therefore, that this kind of incident no longer lies far beyond our borders. We must not think that we are not involved in them in this country. Every individual, every house and every farm in South Africa is closely involved.

The greatest possible co-operation on the part of the public is a prerequisite for successful action by the police. One cannot sufficiently impress upon the man in the street the need to be vigilant, observant, safety-conscious and prepared for any eventuality at all times. In fact, the slogan of every responsible citizen in our country should be: “Prepared at all times under all circumstances.” I am referring, for example, to being observant in connection with suspicious parcels, persons, vehicles or behaviour. Such alertness should become second nature to us.

Therefore I believe that one can never be grateful enough or pay enough tribute to the police for their fine and brave action on behalf of our fatherland. For this reason, I should like to tell the hon. the Minister that the members of the public fully agree that our policemen should receive adequate remuneration. If the hon. the Minister believes that our policemen are not receiving adequate salaries, he should know that the public is behind him if he were to negotiate for even better salaries and benefits for our policemen. It does not matter how much, as long as it is enough. The public will support him, even if it means increased taxes.

Now I should like to take a closer look at the matter with regard to Ëloemfontein. When one reads the editorial of a extremely responsible newspaper, Die Volksblad, of 19 December 1979, one sees what serious conditions prevailed there during the 1979 Christmas holidays. It is said in this editorial, for example—

After this, according to the District Commandant of Police, the police did valuable crime prevention work by patrolling the city centre on foot on Saturdays in particular, dressed in uniform and in civilian dress, keeping a lookout for pickpockets and gangs. He also declared that foot patrols had already proved that this was the most efficient way of combating crime. According to him, the foot patrols of the police have yielded good results up to now because the police have caught pickpockets redhanded after elderly people had been robbed. The inhabitants of Bloemfontein are grateful for this, and they are gratified by the fact that so many policemen are to be seen in the city centre on Saturdays.

Therefore we trust that the staff position of the police will be improved to such an extent that foot patrols can be introduced throughout the country on a general basis. That is our request.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bloemfontein North has basically advocated more foot patrols by the police and has also brought to the notice of the hon. the Minister the problems being experienced in his area. I hope the hon. the Minister will give him a satisfactory reply in that regard. I should perhaps just say in a lighter vein that we who have always thought that Bloemfontein was a very quiet town, have had our eyes opened today with regard to the skolly element, the gangsters, the bag-snatchers and the pickpockets there. It seems as if Bloemfontein is also now getting into the 1980 “scene.”

I am going to confine myself mainly to local matters. Approximately one year ago— perhaps this coincided with the hon. the Minister’s appointment—we found that the station commanders of the police stations in just about all the constituencies in Durban were, out of the blue, inviting members of Parliament to come and talk to them. This is an absolutely commendable practice. However, I do not wish to suggest that there was no contact in the past. In fact, there has always been contact between Members of Parliament and the station commanders. I think this custom has already yielded good results. I do not know whether this happens only in Durban or whether it is the case throughout the country. Be that as it may, we in Durban Central have had several discussions in this way, and what I have also found gratifying, in particular, has been the willingness of the various departmental heads to grant people an interview at short notice. I just wish to state for the sake of record that we have great appreciation for that.

†I am going to confine myself in my speech, as I have said, to the situation in my own constituency. The Durban central police station, situated in Smith Street, is also understaffed, like most other police stations elsewhere. In spite of this fact, however, I was quite delighted when I was informed recently that almost 75% of cases reported from Albert Park, one of the most densely populated areas in Durban, resulted in arrests. This is really encouraging …

Tell that to Helen too.

This is really encouraging, because it is indicative of quick and effective police action. I believe the emphasis here is on both quick and effective, because action cannot be effective if it is not quick, especially when it has to do with the speedy arrest of an alleged criminal. I also happen to know that the cases reported from the Albert Park area represent only a very small percentage of the total number of cases handled by the Durban central police station.

I also know that when the situation in Durban is compared with that in other cities—and we heard what the hon. member for Bloemfontein East had to say about the city of Bloemfontein—the crime rate in the central city area of Durban is not as alarmingly high as people are often led to believe. Vagrancy, which gives rise to muggings and the molesting of citizens, does occur, but this must be seen in perspective. The impression should not be created that this particular area is a rough and decadent neighbourhood. Far from it. The fact remains that this is a densely populated area, and, as in the case of all densely populated areas, the risk and the danger of crime are always present.

The location of the Durban central police station in Smith Street, naturally contributes greatly to the successful combating of crime in that area. I believe it also explains the high percentage of arrests made when complaints are received. This rather favourable situation is, I am afraid, threatened in a way by the impending shifting of that police station, a move that will inevitably result in the closing down of the present police station in Smith Street. The police station is to be moved to a new location in Stanger Street, some four or five kilometres from where the central police station is presently situated. Earlier this year the hon. the Minister rejected a request made by me for the establishment of a sub-police station in the central city area of Durban. The reason the hon. the Minister gave was that such an undertaking was not possible because of a shortage of staff.

I should like to put it to the hon. the Minister that such a police sub-station is essential, no matter how small it will be. I do concede, of course, that it will inevitably lead to a further drain on the already limited staff. What the hon. the Minister should realize, however, is that there is clearly no other alternative. This is why I am raising the matter again. I believe such a police substation is absolutely essential. It need not be an elaborate building, with scores of cells and extravagant facilities. In that particular area it is, I submit, imperative that there should be the physical presence of a police station, a police station with a permanent address in the city centre. It is not only the Albert Park area that is served by the present police station, but the whole of the central city area. The physical presence of a police station in a densely populated metropolitan area is, I believe, an absolute necessity. I am sure this can be provided in the form of a sub-police station.

I should also remind the hon. the Minister that many elderly people live in that particular area. Many of them do not have telephones. We know that they cannot rely on public telephones. People living in the Albert Park area, if they want to reach the new police station, have to catch two buses, one bus into town and another one out of town to where the new police station is going to be. Moreover, the new police-station will be in an area where the bus service is very poor. In view of all these factors I wish to appeal again to the hon. the Minister to reconsider the matter and to try to do something about it. I know there are certain problems, but I also know that something has to be done. The estimated date on which they will move to a new location is March 1981. There is therefore time in which we can try to find additional accommodation.

I do not rule out the possibility of the use of what are known as mobile stations.

They work well.

My hon. colleague says that they work well. We have had discussions with the people who are involved in this, and my information is that the experiment with mobile stations is not as effective as it was originally thought it would be. I want to say that even amongst station commanders there is a difference of opinion on this. I will therefore settle for mobile stations as second prize, if I may put it like that. A mobile station is not preferable to a permanent one. A police station must have a permanent address.

I want to make a further suggestion concerning foot patrols. Sometimes it is said that foot patrols should be resumed, but they do still take place. Apart from patrols consisting of men who are not in uniform, patrols consisting out of two to as many as 18 men sometimes patrol the streets of the various suburbs of Durban. These patrols therefore do take place, albeit infrequently, and although it is not always possible. I believe that foot patrols could be more effective if patrolmen were issued with walkie-talkies as standard equipment. I quite frankly believe that a walkie-talkie is of far greater importance and use than a whistle. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I must say this is the calmest debate on the Police Vote I have experienced in recent years.

We have a good Minister.

I think it augurs well for us. The department has a new Minister. It seems to me that everyone has very great respect for this hon. Minister and for the way in which he is handling matters. I also wish him success in his future task.

The hon. member who has just resumed his seat spoke about local matters affecting his constituency, and while he was speaking, the question occurred to me which I should now like to ask the hon. the Minister, namely how is the complement of policemen at police stations determined and when was it last done? We know that new developments have taken place all over the country, and one would like to know how the complement of men at police stations is determined and how it is decided where police stations should be erected.

Several hon. members, including the hon. members for Musgrave, Bloemfontein East and Durban Central, spoke the bobby on the beat. I suppose it would be a very good thing if more policemen could do this kind of work, but the crucial question—and this has been the subject of debate all morning—is where the police are to find the people. Where are we going to find the policemen to do this type of work? It is extremely important work, and I think everyone would welcome it if it could be done, but the great question is where we are going to find the people.

Salaries have also been discussed at length in this debate. Actually this has been the central issue in this debate. The hon. member for Musgrave was the first to speak about it. He made certain comparisons and said that the annual salary of a deckhand was R3 000, while that of a new policeman was only R2 400. However, I do not know why the hon. member did not also refer to benefits such as uniforms, study aid—which enables policemen to obtain degrees at universities—housing loans and various other benefits which policemen receive. These benefits should actually be included in their salaries. If one included them, one would see that the salaries of policemen actually compared very favourably. But every man judges his salary by the cash amount he takes home every month, as is the case in any occupation.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, before I leave my question about the siting of police stations and the determination of the complement of policemen, I want to give only one of the reasons why I asked this question. It is that when I think of the border areas, and especially those in the remote Northern Transvaal, where we are close to Zimbabwe and those places, I think specifically of Vivo, a place mentioned to me by the hon. member for Pietersburg. At the moment there is no police station at Vivo. It is so urgently necessary that there should be one, at that specific place in particular. There is a police station at Mara, a very long distance away. In terms of priorities, however, Vivo, which lies right up north, deserves a police station to protect our border areas there.

I also wish to refer to a few other aspects concerning the establishment of our Police Force and its strength. Looking at the figures—and I should very much like us to take cognizance of these figures—we find that in 1969, there were approximately 34 000 policemen in the Force. In 1979, ten years later, there were also approximately 34 000 policemen, the same number.

34 000 in 1979?

Yes, I am taking round figures. Comparing these figures with the figures of the total population of the country, one sees that in 1969, the estimated population was approximately 20,4 million. Ten years later, the estimated population was about 28 million. In spite of that, the Force had remained the same.

When one looks at the number of policemen per thousand inhabitants of the country, we find that in 1969, there were 1,67 policemen per 1 000 inhabitants. Ten years later, in 1979, there were 1,40 policemen per 1 000 inhabitants. This does not mean much until one compares it with the figures of overseas countries. In England there are two policemen per 1 000, in West Germany the number is 2,7 policemen per 1 000 and in Israel there are almost four policemen per 1 000 inhabitants of the country. There is a reason why I am referring to these figures. The heterogeneous population of South Africa is unique in the world. Here we have a population composition which is found in no other country in the world. The greater part of our population is not accustomed to the Western civilized methods and customs. We actually need far more policemen per 1 000 inhabitants than any other country in the world. Even Israel, with its approximately four policemen per 1 000 inhabitants, still experiences very great difficulties.

In the second place, we are also faced with the threat of terrorism and communist imperialism. We need far more men to combat those dangers. Israel has the same problems, and that is why they have so many policemen. We have the same problems, but we have far fewer policemen than they have.

Some of the hon. members have referred to incidents at Booysens, Silverton, and those places. Reference has been made to the reasons, and one of the reasons, of course, is the salaries, the actual amount which the man takes home every month. That is what counts. The work of the teachers in the country is extremely important, the work of the officials is very important and the work of members of Parliament is very important, but without enough policemen to guarantee our peace and safety in this country, we are headed for revolution and anarchy. We must examine the matter. We must examine the combating of terrorism. That is why it is so important that we should find ways and means of increasing the strength of our Police Force. We are actually candidates for a revolution and we are sitting on a powder keg, owing, among other things, to many speeches made by some people in our country, speeches which are an incitement to revolution and anarchy in the country.

A few days ago I received the book I have in my hand from Argentinia. It is a book dealing with terrorism in Argentinia and it is published by an association in Argentinia. It contains pictures about terrorism in Argentinia. There are lists and lists of names of children, women and men who have been murdered because of terrorism. The incitement to these acts comes from communist imperialism. Any hon. member may have the book to page through it. He will come to the realization that we in this country must also be prepared for these dangers which threaten us.

There are many other reasons, apart from the salaries, why our Police Force cannot attract people. Reference has been made to big companies which entice policemen away. It is true that the benefits which these companies offer our young men may be only of a temporary nature. In the long run, the young men may benefit more if they stay in the Force.

It has been asked what suggestions we can make to attract more people to the Force. In the first place, one thinks of the cost of training our policemen. This is extremely high, and when a man is enticed away by some company, the State loses the money it has spent on training him. I have wondered whether one could not compell the companies who entice these men away to pay back those costs to the State if that policemen has not served in the Force for a certain number of years. It should be a kind of deterrent.

As I have said, higher remuneration is an automatic requirement. There are other methods one could consider, such as a kind of merit promotion, if a policeman has done a special job. If this proposal is accepted, a policeman will be able to earn a higher salary because of the quality of his work. Other possibilities are higher remuneration for dangerous work, such as combating terrorism. Then there is overtime as well. I do not know how overtime works in the Police Force. Perhaps the hon. the Minister could explain it to us.

It is absolutely essential that everyone in this country should think of ways and means of strengthening our Force, including the women police, who are performing an enormous task in our Force. One thinks of the expansion of the facilities for training women—those facilities are very meagre—so that we may train more of our women to strengthen our Force. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am following the hon. member for Potgietersrus, who concluded with a reference to the ladies in the Police Force. This will probably be the first debate on the Police Vote in which I shall participate without crossing swords with the hon. member for Houghton. [Interjections.] Today the hon. member for Houghton will agree wholeheartedly with what I am going to say. [Interjections.]

About a decade ago, most of us where not very keen to go to a police station. In those years, it was a very dark and sombre place, sometimes even morbid. Finding a policeman, especially a sergeant, who smiled— well, that was about as rare as rain in Pofadder. The winds of change have not passed the Police Force by. Round about 1971, under the leadership of genl. J. P. Gouws, who was Commissioner of Police at that time, an enlightened attitude was introduced into the Police Force, almost like in politics. It was then decided that women would be trained as full members of the Police Force. [Interjections.]

What do you do for fun?

In 1972, the first two women officers were appointed in the Police Force, and in March of that year, the first 102 student constables were taken in to begin their training. At first, the training period was four months, but before long, the instructures decided to keep these “polliedoedies” with them a little longer. Then they decided to extend the training period to five months. At the moment there are two intakes a year, and it is gratifying to see that in July this year, the 17th group of ladies will be taken in for training in the full-time service of the S.A. Police.

Usually I do not agree with the hon. member for Musgrave about anything, but I do want to agree with him on one point today, and that is that I share his concern about policemen leaving the Force. I think the number of resignations is indeed alarming. I think there is no member of the House who would not like something to be done to put a stop to these resignations.

Let us look for a moment at the resignation figure and the statistics in respect of ladies in the Police Force. Since 1972, 1 610 ladies have been trained as policewomen. Since then, 524 ladies have resigned from the Police Force, but what is very important is that 126 of them offered their services to the Police Force again and were reappointed. This means that the total loss to the Force in the women’s division has been 398, or 24% over a period of eight years and two months, which gives an average of under 3% a year. When one looks at the specialized services, it will be found that 33 of these policewomen have been appointed to the police departments of forensic medicine, the band, social work and the Police College. Of these 33, 28 are still in the service of the police. This represents a loss of about 2% a year. Most of these specialized women had degrees.

What are we to infer from these figures? I think that in the first place, one can justifiably infer that these ladies are happy in their work. These ladies are happy, and they take an interest in the challenges presented by the work they do in the Police Force. One can also infer that they are reasonably happy with their conditions of service.

I may also mention that these ladies receive exactly the same salaries as their male colleagues, and they have exactly the same conditions of service as their male colleagues. It is right that this should be so, because they do exactly the same work as their male colleagues. That is why they receive the same salary and why they have the same conditions of service as their male counterparts. It may be accepted that they do not do border duty. They do not serve in the mounted divisions and they are not involved in riot control.

However, I think there is one sector where they can be used, although there are not being used there at the moment, and that is in the training of animals at the dog school. I believe that ladies should be very good at training and handling animals.

There is something else I think we can infer from these figures I have quoted, and that is that the policewomen introduce a strong element of stability into our Police Force. When we consider a resignation figure of 2% to 3%, and we also remember that about 550 of these ladies are married women, one cannot help concluding that they have a very stabilizing effect in the Police Force.

Hon. members may also ask what the promotion opportunities for these ladies are. Hon. members will be interested to know that the women police already include 145 women sergeants, 42 warrant-officers, three full lieutenants, three captains, two majors and one brigadier. I think it is an achievement if one considers that this means that 16% of the total women Police Force has already risen above the status of constable. This proves once again what the opportunities advancement are in the police, even for a woman.

Hon. members know that the step from a brigadier to a general is a very small one. I think the male members of the Police Force will have to pull up their socks, because I can foresee the day—perhaps it is not so far off—when we shall have a woman general in the Police Force. I do not know what will happen when the day comes when we have a woman Commissioner of Police, but it would give a new look to the officials’ benches.

I do not think the woman police officer is really getting the credit she deserves from the ordinary public and the media for the exceptionally good and essential work she has done and the special role she has played in maintaining law and order in this country. I want to go so far as to say that women have become indispensable in the Police Service. They are going to become increasingly indispensable. The general problem we have is being experienced in regard to them as well. There are 717 vacancies for women police officers in the police establishment today, while there are only 62 aspirants for the July intake. The hon. the Minister announced last year that approval had been granted for the training of Coloured, Indian and Black women as full-fledged police officers in the Police Service. Now I have learnt that all the facilities that are required are not yet available. I want to point out to the hon. the Minister that since we are having more and more vacancies in the Police Service, these facilities should be provided as soon as possible, so that we may fill these vacancies as soon as possible with persons who can work among their own people and who have received a well-regulated training.

Mr. Chairman, I must tell the hon. member for Pretoria East that I did indeed agree with every word he said. It was very nice indeed to hear him putting up such a very fine performance on behalf of the women members of the Police Force, although I think I did detect a paling on the faces of some of his colleagues when he suggested that one day there might be a woman Commissioner of Police. They did not look very pleased with that suggestion. However, I enjoyed every word of his speech.

He is a lady’s man!

I have to come back to one or two more contentious issues which I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister. I want to raise the question of the number of people who are being detained without trial in South Africa. This falls under the hon. the Minister’s department. According to the figures I have, 49 people are being detained under section 6 of the Terrorism Act. I hope the hon. the Minister can bring these figures up to date and give us some assurance that the people being held under section 6, which, as everybody should know, is the section which provides for solitary confinement for an indefinite period, will be brought to trial as soon as possible or released if the police have no charges to lay against them.

Then, I put a question to the hon. the Minister this week asking about the number of people who have been detained in connection with the school boycott. The hon. the Minister was rather coy in his reply, but he did tell us that some 21 people were being held under section 22 of the General Law Amendment Act. That is the section providing for the 14-day detention period. I understand that since then a number of these people have been transferred and are now being held in terms of section 10 of the Internal Security Act, which is the preventive detention section. I should like to know whether that applies to all of those people or whether only some of them have been so transferred. It makes a very big difference to these people, because once they are in preventive detention it does mean that, since they then also fall under the category of those in detention without trial, something this side of the House cannot approve of, they can at least receive visitors and their relatives can be assured that they are in good hands.

Fourteen people were being held under section 12B of the Internal Security Act as at 3 March. That is the section in terms of which people are held because they are witnesses in security cases. In that regard, too, I should like more recent statistics if possible. It is interesting to note that during last year 81 people were held under section 13 of the drug abuse legislation, which also provides for solitary confinement without trial. I hope that at present not many people are being held under that section.

The best answer I think I got to the numerous questions I put to the hon. the Minister this year was the answer I got to a question I put on 13 February, which was whether any people had died while in detention under the security laws of the country— I am not talking of people who die in the normal prison cells. The answer was “No”. That is an excellent answer and I hope very much that that is the answer I am always going to get in future when I put that question. The answer was that nobody had died in detention. In fact, nobody has died, bar one, since the unfortunate Biko episode, and I ascribe that to strict instructions from the top, together with the two watchdogs who were appointed by the hon. the Minister’s predecessor to visit people being held under section 6. There are 32 actions for damages pending against the State, or at least there were as at 13 February 1980, actions instituted by persons, or the next of kin of persons, detained under section 6 of the Terrorism Act. Apart from the Biko case, which was settled out of court for R65 000, which the State paid to the next of kin of Steve Biko, I should like to know if there have been any payments since then and, if so, how much? I have just been given, by the hon. member for Musgrave, the figures for the pay-outs for unlawful assault by the police.

Do you have the figures?

Yes, the hon. member for Musgrave asked the question and he has supplied me with the answer. The amount has gone up from R87 185 in 1977 to R252 000 last year. I think that is a lot of money for the taxpayers to be paying for unlawful assaults, and I hope that the hon. the Minister will look into that matter and that strict instructions will go out in that regard as well.

I now have to raise another matter that I know always irritates everybody in the House, but I believe that it is important. I am doing so because I believe that it is the duty of the Opposition to raise these matters. I know that in doing so I am not handing out the usual pleasant accolades that the police like to hear, the sort of pleasant accolades that hon. members on that side of the House like to dish out during a discussion of this particular Vote. It seems to me that there are still far too many people being shot whilst trying to escape. [Interjections.] I am sorry, but I am going to raise this every single year that I am in this House. It is my duty to do so. It is not the job of the police to turn a crime into a capital offence.

Next time we shall send you.

I am all for having the police protected when they are dealing with violent criminals. They are certainly entitled to protect themselves and to use their firearms if necessary in cases where they are dealing with violent criminals. When someone is running away, however, I do not see that it is necessary for the police to shoot. [Interjections.] It does not matter. The crime could be a petty crime.

You mean like Silverton?

No, I am talking about petty crimes, and they do also occur. A few years ago a young boy was shot in the back when he was caught in the act of stealing a car. That boy is a paraplegic for life. I do not believe that that was a justifiable shooting. Last year, according to the figures I have, 103 people were shot dead while trying to escape arrest, which I am glad to say is a decrease from the figure of 140 that I was given the year before. The number of those shot and wounded whilst trying to escape has dropped from 368 in 1978 to 353 last year. I still consider that to be too many. In a country like South Africa greater vigilance should be exercised when the police are attempting to arrest people who are attempting to escape.

Mr. Chairman, at this stage I should like to reply in respect of certain matters raised in the course of the debate. However, since this is the first such occasion since I was appointed to this portfolio by the hon. the Prime Minister, I want to take the opportunity to say that I regard it as an exceptional privilege granted me by the hon. the Prime Minister to bear the responsibility for this department at ministerial level. I have many years of personal contact with this department. It was a very pleasant contact before I came to Parliament, and has continued to be so since then. I should also just like to say that it is and will continue to be my approach that I will maintain law and order in this country as law and order should be maintained in any orderly State. Together with the S.A. Police I shall make my contribution to see to it that law and order is indeed maintained. I should also like to state that it is my standpoint that the S.A. Police should be kept out of public disputes as much as possible so that they can do their work objectively and with authority. It is true that the police are there to serve the public, and the police do in fact do so, but I think I can also expect that the public show the police the necessary respect in this regard, and I should like to assure hon. members that I shall tolerate no undermining of the image of the S.A. Police.

In particular I want to say to the hon. member for Musgrave with regard to this debate that for both of us it is our first experience in our respective capacities.

†I respect his views as a senior and respected member of this House. I also appreciate his personal attitude towards matters concerning the S.A. Police. I agree with him that the police as such belong to the people. It is there to serve the people. The police are not above criticism and not above the law. There I quite agree with him. I cannot, however, agree with the hon. member’s criticism of the present S.A. Police salaries and service conditions where he referred to these salaries and service conditions as being “deplorable”, a “disgrace” and a “slap in the face” of all concerned, and I also cannot agree with some of the examples he used to compare the different races. I shall shortly give the hon. member particulars of the latest increases in salary scales, and I also hope to make a very important announcement concerning promotions and service conditions in the Police Force. I shall also reply to the criticism of the hon. member as far as the insufficiency of policing city and other areas is concerned. I must say it is unfortunate that the hon. member used the salary scale of a constable with a qualification lower than Std. 8 as an example for his starting point. There are very few members left in the Force with qualifications below Std. 8 level. Most of the members have Std. 9 or Std. 10. At least 80% of the members of the Force today have Std. 9 or Std. 10, those with Std. 9 being a minority. If one therefore looks at the salary scales, I think it is fair to take the constable with Std. 10 or 9 as an example. For the purposes of my argument, I shall refer to the constable with Std. 10. The position is that a constable with Std. 10 starts off on exactly the same salary scale as any other civil servant with a Std. 10 certificate, viz. R3 390 per annum. He gets an increase of 13% under the present budget announcements, and his maximum goes up from R5 160 to R5 745, an increase of 11,33%.

*In this regard I should also like to point out to hon. members that this same constable also receives a service allowance—in the place of the old holiday bonus—and also enjoys the benefit of the tax concessions that have been announced. In this regard I just wish to say that the S.A. Police are very grateful to include this service allowance and the tax benefits in calculating their monthly and annual income and determining whether they are satisfied with it or not.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he is aware of how the situation he has just described compares with that of the Railway Police?

What difference does that make?

Mr. Chairman, I should appreciate it if the hon. member for East London North were just to show a little patience. This is not the time for us to ask one another these petty questions. The hon. member should rather give me a chance to explain this matter fully. I wish to make important announcements in this regard. The question of how the salaries of the S.A. Police compare with those of the Railway Police is as old as the hills. It cuts no ice any more. The S.A. Police and the S.A. Railway Police are equal in virtually all respects. There are a few slight differences. The hon. member should rather refrain from asking such silly questions.

You compared the Police with the Civil Service. Why can I not compare them with the Railway Police? [Interjections.]

Order!

That question might have been appropriate ten years ago, but it is no longer. The hon. member should therefore refrain from wasting my time any further with that kind of question.

He should rather open his ears and close his mouth.

I want to turn to the example I wish to give to hon. members. Let me take as an example a constable, a sergeant and a warrant officer, each with three years’ service in his rank. We could of course also take other examples, but whether it be one year, five years or six years service is irrelevant. I am simply taking the example of a person with three years service in his rank. I do not take three years for any specific reason, but merely as an example. Let us say that he is a married member with two children. That constable, sergeant and warrant officer, with his increase in salary, with his increase in service allowance and the tax benefit that he enjoys, receives a salary increase from 1 July this year, when the new tax benefits come into operation, of R61,02 per month in the case of a constable with Std. 10, viz. 19,48%. The constable with Std. 8 receives an increase of R47,44 or 17,28%. The sergeant’s salary increase is R71,52 per month, or 19,94%. The warrant officer’s salary increases by R84,47 per month, or 20,14%.

Our Police Force is grateful for this. I think that these benefits that the policemen are receiving are outstanding. I could explain this further on the basis of other examples. Unfortunately I do not have the time to do so now. Apart from this, the Police receives further benefits, for example uniform allowances. Then there are other service benefits which, for the purposes of a discussion of salaries, are not relevant now. Suffice it to say at this stage that the salary adjustments are satisfactory, although we could ask for further improvements. At this stage I just wish to point out, too, that there are ongoing talks on this subject between the department and the Public Service Commission and between the department and the Treasury. Even after the budget was announced I put forward the department’s further proposals with regard to salary and conditions of service through the correct channels. This is an ongoing discussion and I must say that the S.A. Police recognize that thus far—and I believe that this will be the case in the future as well—we have had the necessary co-operation from the Public Service Commission and the Treasury in determining the salary and conditions of service of the S.A. Police. I should like to place this on record here today.

There are very interesting figures with regard to these salaries, resulting in a favourable situation in comparison with all other departments of the Public Service. I am not referring to the Department of Prisons or the S.A. Defence Force, because these three departments are in a different position. I am referring to the Public Service as a whole.

With reference to what the hon. member for Musgrave and one or two other hon. members have said, I should just like to point out that provision has been made in this budget for the gap in police salaries between White and Black and White and/or Coloured and Indians, to be narrowed. The narrowing of the wage gap is not so substantial as to enable us to feel very happy about it. The fact is, however, that a significant effort is being made to bring about a narrowing of the wage gap. With regard to Coloureds, Indians and Blacks on the one hand, and Whites on the other, it varies between 6% and 7%, and sometimes even 8% in the lower ranks. This is a process which will take years. However, a significant effort is being made in this regard.

Because it is such a cardinal issue I want to say at this stage that I have had the circumstances of the policeman compared with the circumstances of anyone joining the Public Service as an official. Just as there are various groups of public servants, there are various groups of policemen as well. These groups vary from groups 1 to 4. I have no hesitation whatsoever in conveying to all our young people and our policemen—and I have already cleared the details at my disposal with the Public Service Commission—the message that a policeman who belongs to the group to which 80% of all policemen belong, a group which corresponds with the group to which 80% of public servants belong, is not a cent less well paid than an ordinary official in any department of the Public Service. I do not wish to furnish too many details, because if I were to do so, the Public Service may not be so friendly with me next time. I should like all our young people and all the members of the S.A. Police to know what the position is. Therefore our men and women need have no hesitation in joining the police and making a career of it.

In this regard I should like to make an announcement. Taking into account the steadily increasing responsibilities of members of the S.A. Defence Force and the heavy demands made on them, I have approved a comprehensive adjustment of the existing system of promotion in the S.A. Police Force. In general, the changes are aimed, firstly, at affording greater recognition by way of earlier promotions to members of the Force who have passed the departmental examinations or have achieved academic qualifications, without sacrificing efficiency. What this will amount to is that the periods in which such a member has to serve in a rank before being considered for promotion to the next rank, are being shortened. In addition, intensive in-service training will be provided to qualify the members for their greater responsibilities.

Secondly, these changes also aimed at creating a more favourable dispensation for those members of the Force who do not have the ability to obtain academic qualifications or pass the departmental examinations, but who are nevertheless practical, experienced and useful policeman of great value to the Force. Members in this category may now be promoted to a higher rank without sitting for the prescribed promotion examinations. This only refers to constables and sergeants. The idea is to promote a constable to the rank of sergeant after six years service and a sergeant with the same number of years of service in that rank, to the rank of warrant-officer. However, this does not mean that every constable or sergeant with the necessary number of years of service in his rank will be promoted. Members will be subjected to a stringent selection process so that efficiency is not sacrificed. The idea is to afford those practical, experienced and useful policemen recognition for their good service.

Thirdly, the changes are aimed at identifying the talented and go-ahead member with the necessary leadership characteristics at an early stage, to train him and to equip him for greater responsibilities and to create an attractive career for him in order to retain his services. The principle at issue here is simply that the man with the initiative and leadership characteristics should not be promoted in a stereotyped fashion in accordance with seniority or the so-called table of precedence. The hon. member for Bryanston who had a lot to say this morning about the promotion opportunities and salaries of the police, has not even had the decency to listen to what I have been announcing.

I am listening to every word.

Leaders are identified on the basis of achievements, initiative and ability, and they have to progress rapidly. Apart from what I have just detailed, negotiations are at present in progress with the Commission for Administration concerning the award of achievement notches to constables and sergeants to enable them to reach the maximum notch on their respective scales more rapidly. Such achievement notches will, in the nature of the matter, only be granted to members who do well and render consistently good service.

I wish to mention a few further details in this connection. This system will mean that a member with the ability to study and pass the prescribed examinations can progress relatively rapidly through the ranks and may be appointed as an officer at an early age. The S.A. Police needs people of this calibre because usually they are the future leaders.

On the other hand, however, a reasonable dispensation must also be created for that member who is not interested in becoming an officer or does not have the ability to pass the examination, but is nevertheless a practical, experienced and useful policeman who is of great value to the Force. A separate promotion channel is being created for the latter group because it is usually among these people that we have the most problems as regards resignations. In order to afford this group, too, the opportunity to be considered for promotion within a reasonable period, it is envisaged that members of the functional stream be divided into two groups and that the following requirements will apply for the purposes of the promotion of each group.

Firstly, I come to the potential leadership corps. Once again these are the members who sit for the prescribed examination, viz. the examination group. I also wish to refer to the required periods of service in the respective ranks. In this examination group a constable who has reached the age of 20 years and has a matriculation certificate may write the sergeant’s examination within one year, viz. as soon as he has completed one year of service, and two years after that, that of warrant-officer, and within a further two years, that of lieutenant. Such a constable with a matriculation certificate, who is also 20 years old after one year’s service can therefore be a lieutenant in the S.A. Police within a period of five years. Previously the shortest period within which such a person could do this was seven years.

The second group to which I want to refer comprises graduates and members with diplomas. They, in turn, are divided into two groups, namely a professional group consisting of veterinarians, pharmacists, psychologists, architects, engineers, etc. and in the second group, all other graduates and members with diplomas possessing an appropriate degree or diploma. These groups, in turn are divided into the professional members who rise within a short period after the completion of an officer’s course to the rank of lieutenant, and from there can progress to the rank of lieutenant colonel, with promotion opportunities every two years, based on merit.

The other group to which I wish to refer comprises the other graduates and members with diplomas. After 4½ years such a member can also reach commission rank in the police. I shall not furnish details in this regard at the moment for obvious reasons, viz. to save time. Then there is the other group, which does not possess appropriate qualifications. These are people who have degrees or diplomas which are not of basic value to us, but which are of important basic background value, and which are supplemented by police examinations. After 5½ years this group can progress to commission rank. This also represents a substantial curtailment of the period required at present. Another very important matter about which I should like to inform hon. members concerns those members who have not sat for an examination and do not possess a post-school qualification; in other words, those who have neither a degree or a diploma. They can be promoted in the following way without sitting for an examination. After six years of satisfactory service and exemplary conduct a constable can be promoted to sergeant—please note, without sitting for an examination. After six years of satisfactory service and exemplary conduct, a sergeant can be promoted to warrant officer. After six years of satisfactory service and exemplary conduct, a warrant officer can be promoted to the rank of lieutenant. From there onwards his position will be considered by a selection board with reference to his circumstances.

Because these people can be promoted to the rank of officer without qualifications and without sitting for an examination, it is essential that they be placed on a separate officer’s list. Any subsequent promotion is on merit and on the recommendation of the Promotion Board for Officers.

That is the situation in brief. The details of this matter will be made known to members by the Commissioner of Police through the usual departmental channels, but it is an exceptional privilege for me to announce these things this afternoon for the sake of the members of the Force and those who are interested in joining the Force and making a career in the Force. I have now dealt with salaries and conditions of service. I trust that I have now replied with regard to the concern expressed by various hon. members. In this regard I have in mind the hon. member for Stilfontein.

†The hon. member for Umhlanga was also very concerned about the salary and service conditions of the police. I appreciate his thoughts in this connection.

*The hon. member for Springs and other hon. members spoke about police salaries and conditions of service.

†The hon. member for Musgrave also referred to the inefficiency of policing in the urban areas. He referred to muggings, etc. and asked for Bobbies on the beat. In this connection I refer the hon. member and other hon. members to our system of what we may call crime prevention squads. Some people refer to them as ghost squads. In Afrikaans they are known as “misdaadvoorkomingseenhede”.

*In this regard I want to quote one example of what is happening in Cape Town, but this could also be applied to Johannesburg, Durban and the other urban areas. Recently in Johannesburg we launched an exceptionally large-scale action in which between 700 and 800 policemen were involved. That was a few days ago. These are large-scale actions that take place from time to time with the aim of working through an entire area. For example, in Johannesburg there are two specific units that concern themselves with either the combatting of serious crime or the combating of trade in dagga and all these other evils. In total there are approximately 150 to 160 men involved. If there is a specific area in a city which creates exceptional problems, these crime prevention units operate in such an area for so long as is necessary and they clean the place up as far as possible.

There is also a unit of this nature in Cape Town. They are specially trained to deal with the control of unrest and matters of that nature, but when they are not dealing with that, they operate in the field of special crime prevention. This unit comprises seven sergeants and 38 constables. I know that this is cause for major concern on the part of hon. members, particularly those living in Cape Town, for example the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens. Incidentally, he apologized for not being able to be present today. He concerns himself a great deal with the crime situation in Cape Town.

I want to speak about the outstanding work done by this crime prevention unit in Cape Town. In 1979 these 45 policemen concerned themselves with this special action. They are not necessarily always in uniform, because one cannot always carry out real crime prevention in uniform. They operate in the urban area of Cape Town in addition to the other police engaged in their normal tasks. As far as very serious crime is concerned, this specific unit has dealt with five cases of murder, 16 of armed robbery, 46 cases of muggings and five attempted muggings. I am now only referring to these people who render special services. In 1979 they attended to and solved 1 433 cases of serious crime in the Cape Peninsula. They have made a total of 10 116 minor arrests. Forty-five men have attended to more than 11 000 cases over a period of one year.

†Information can be supplied as far as other urban areas are concerned but at the moment I have the information for Cape Town before me. For the information of the hon. member for Musgrave I want to point out that in the months January to March 1980 the unit attended to 372 cases of serious crime and 1 364 cases of minor offences.

*Some of the people involved in the less serious cases were in possession of dangerous weapons. Over the past three months these people have recovered 50 stolen vehicles. I want to assure hon. members that this problem to which the hon. member for Musgrave referred is one to which we give our serious attention.

†We have special units in the main cities of South Africa. Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban and other areas, which operate as crime prevention squads on special duty in particular areas. That is the way in which we try to combat crime and this also applies to the particular city area which the hon. member represents.

*The hon. member for Waterkloof mentioned his experiences with the S.A. Police, and also his recent visit to the northern areas of South West Africa, with great appreciation. I am grateful that he, as chairman of the group, was able to accompany me there. I am also grateful for the appreciation he conveyed to me.

The hon. member also asked me to give special attention to the possibility of building a police station in the south-eastern part of his constituency. The hon. member has been making representations to me for some time in connection with that area and the circumstances prevailing there. It is not due to the fact that the hon. member is chairman of the group and occupies a very senior position in this House that I am able to announce that after serious consideration we have agreed in principle that an additional police station will in fact be built in that region. However, we are not yet clear on whether it is to be in Monument Park or in Garsfontein. The hon. member must give us a chance to give further consideration to all the facts and once that has been done I shall contact him again in connection with this matter.

†The hon. member for Umhlanga made a very important appeal today. I refer to his appeal to English-speaking people in South Africa to join the Police Force in larger numbers. I want to support the hon. member’s plea most seriously for more English-speaking people in South Africa to join the S.A. Police Force. It can only be to the good of the Police Force. I personally feel that the percentage of English-speaking people in the Force, compared to Afrikaans-speaking people, is too low and it would be a happy day if this percentage could be increased by at least 10% or 15%. I have replied to the hon. member as far as police salaries and service conditions are concerned.

*The hon. member for Springs referred to a report which appeared in the Sunday Times. I must honestly say that I deeply appreciate the attitude with which the hon. member referred to the report, because he was trying to support his argument about the concern he felt with regard to the shortages in the Force and the consequent lack of policing which he wanted to bring to the attention of the House. I therefore sincerely appreciate his basic point of departure. However, I am not differing with him when I say that the report which appeared in the Sunday Times was a disappointing report and that it could only have been intended to harm the S.A. Police. This report by a correspondent by the name of Pieterse, and another report he wrote for the Sunday Times a week or two previously, certainly did not serve any purpose as far as the S.A. Police are concerned.

The report concerned the policing of the Johannesburg area, but the facts are that in the past, John Vorster Square had two separate units to investigate robberies and thefts from vehicles. It is true that due to a shortage of staff these two units were combined in January this year. The numerical strength of this unit, which is under the control of a major, is nine Whites and eight Coloured and Black constables, making up a total of 17. Before the merger this unit consisted of nine members. In 1972 their numerical strength was 14; in 1974 it was 17; in 1976 it was 11, and last year, up to the time of the merger, it was nine and sometimes 10. During the period October 1978 to March 1979 these men did a very good job and I shall also indicate the figure for the period of October 1979 to March 1980. During that period the following number of cases of housebreaking were investigated and guilty persons charged: In the first period, from 1978 to 1979, 770 cases were reported, and in the second period, from 1979 to 1980, 743 cases were reported; in addition, in the first period, 100 persons were charged and in the second, 98. Therefore there is no exceptional increase as maintained in the report.

I also wish to say that the percentage is not as low as approximately 2%, the figure mentioned in the report. The percentage of accused persons charged in the housebreaking cases over the two periods in question increased from 12,99 to 13,19. If one takes into account the fact that some of the cases reported are proved, in the course of the investigation, to be unfounded or are withdrawn, the percentage of solutions is substantially higher. I do not believe it is necessary for me to furnish further details with regard to the report in question.

I should like to deal with another important matter, a matter raised by the hon. member for Brakpan. Before going into detail, I should just like to say to the hon. member for Stilfontein that I greatly appreciated his plea for better salaries and conditions of service. I trust that I have furnished him with an adequate reply. With regard to his representations concerning the building of a police station and complex in his constituency I should just like to say to him that I am giving serious attention to that. I hope that the eventual siting of the police station will satisfy the hon. member. In any event, the matter is progressing well.

With regard to the representations by the hon. member for Brakpan, particularly his comments in respect of the Directorate of Public Relations and the incident at Silverton, I should just like to mention a few matters to the House. The events at the bank at Silverton have engaged our interest afresh after the recent incident at the Iranian embassy in London. In this regard I should like to convey our congratulations on behalf of the S.A. Police and all of us to the crack SAS corps of the British Air Force which, assisted by the Metropolitan Police, acquitted themselves of their task so brilliantly. I take pleasure in conveying this message to them.

Having said that, it is necessary for us to take another look at Silverton. While in general, the police action on that occasion was praised, and they undoubtedly enjoyed the support of the majority, it is true that the police were also criticized. The question was asked whether they did not act too soon and whether they should not have negotiated further in order to prevent the taking of the lives of innocent people. Even sharper criticism has been expressed with regard to the treatment meted out to certain members of the Press. However, I think that when one reviews all the events, I can say without hesitation that I am satisfied that in fact there was really very little reason to criticize the police action at Silverton. On the contrary, I think that the police action at Silverton was brilliant.

With regard to the problems experienced by the Press at Silverton, I should like to give the assurance that the police did not stand back complacently. On the contrary, this was the first serious problem which the Directorate of Public Relations had encountered. In the nature of the matter it is maintained that mistakes were made on our side too, and it is indeed true that a few mistakes were made on our side. However, what did we do about it? We immediately took a penetrating look at ourselves. The S.A. Police carried out an in-depth investigation into its own division in the department in question to see whether we had in fact operated well or not. The necessary report was then submitted to me and I can give hon. members the assurance that we have taken a penetrating look at ourselves in connection with this matter.

In this regard I should like to indicate in general how the action of the police in such cases will be viewed and planned by us in the future. When such incidents occur in future the arrangement on our side is that the head office of the Directorate in Pretoria will be notified as soon as possible and that the Divisional Commissioner of the region in which the incident similar to the one at Silverton has taken place, must immediately contact his liaison officer. In this regard I just wish to say that there are altogether 22 liaison officers throughout South Africa at each of the Divisional Commissioner’s offices and also at some other offices. They are trained to act in cases of this nature. Their divisional commissioner will instruct such a liaison officer to proceed to the scene immediately, and if he is not immediately available he will instruct another officer to act as liaison officer. That officer must report there immediately, and he and the officer in command where the incident is taking place must immediately provide and make available an information point for the Press. The officer-in-charge at the scene must see to it that members under his control are notified of the presence of the liaison officer. In other words, there will be no fumbling. Every man will know who the officer in question is, because he will carry identification. Every officer will also know immediately where the information point is so that the Press can immediately be directed to one point. It will be possible to refer people immediately to one specific point. Only the liaison officer will serve as a link between the officer-in-charge, the media on the scene and the liaison division at head office.

During the events at Silverton there were occasional comical incidents between the Police and members of the Press in their search for news. Not all of them were so comical; some of them were troublesome too, but never mind.

The liaison division at head office will keep all bodies making inquiries informed about developments in so far as it is able to do so. Since incidents similar to that at Silverton do not necessarily take place in urban areas only, or in areas where a telephone is readily available, the police will in future also establish the necessary communications link immediately by way of radio in such instances.

We are giving attention to the issue of Press identification cards to members of the media, not in order to make things difficult for them but in order to make the system operate more effectively with regard to their presence or activities on the scene. This does not mean that the Pressman who is present is entitled to be provided throughout with comment on the course of the police investigation or action. Still less is he entitled to endanger his own life or that of the hostage, the police or the public. It is the duty of the police to maintain law and order at the scene, and all of us, whether members of the Press or members of the general public, must bear that in mind at all times. The liaison officer will also, so far as possible, periodically inform the Press of events occurring in the course of such an incident.

After the action has been concluded—this is what we are planning—the liaison officer or the officer who was in charge of the action will be put at the disposal of the media. Such an officer will provide the media with the necessary report at the scene of the incident. If this procedure is followed as far as is practicable, most of the misunderstanding which occurred at Silverton ought to be eliminated.

I now come to the hon. member for Green Point, who is not present this afternoon.

He is in the Senate.

I realize that. There is a debate in progress in the Senate too. In fact, the hon. member for Green Point only had one point of criticism of the police, and it did not concern the police so much as it concerned me as the Minister. He criticizes me because I made a bona fide effort to end the school boycott. The reason he criticizes me is that according to him, I interfered in the affairs of another hon. Minister. However, what is also interesting is that this hon. member did not say anything against those who were engaged in the school boycott or those who served as background music for the school boycott and fomented it. He did not speak to those people, but he did speak to us who, from the side of the police, made all possible bona fide efforts to end this matter in a reasonably peaceful way. We are criticized.

What are the facts? I am being criticized because the police convened a meeting at which these young people were to have been present, and because this was done not by the hon. the Minister of Coloured Relations but by me in my capacity as Minister of Police. According to him this was a fault of judgment. The day before yesterday in this House I replied to a question placed on the Order Paper by that hon. member. I told him that we had not convened a meeting in that sense of the word. I told the Security Police to go and tell those young people and children that I wanted to speak to them in my office. That was the message that was conveyed to them. It was conveyed to them in a friendly manner. The police took the trouble to go to the home of each of them—at that time there were 61 and now there are 81—I hope that there will be fewer of them by today or tomorrow—and tell them in a friendly way that I requested them please to come to my office because I wanted to speak to them about the school boycott. There was no threat and no orders given from our side. It was a friendly request.

I should like to say to the hon. member that up to this stage we as Ministers have co-operated very closely with one another with regard to the unrest in Coloured and other schools. Every important step taken by me with regard to the police or by my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Coloured Relations, with regard to police matters, was taken after due consultation with one another. This request which I made to that committee was only issued after I had been in contact with the departmental head of that hon. Minister and the hon. Minister who, due to official commitments in the Free State and the Western Transvaal, was aware that these arrangements would be made. I therefore wish to assure him that there was no fault of judgment committed in this regard, but that an effort was made with the best intentions to terminate the school boycott.

I wish to repeat that the hon. member for Green Point could make a significant contribution to the solution of the prevailing problems if he were also to make his voice heard. In any event the hon. member for Pretoria Central asked where the hon. members of the official Opposition stood with regard to this matter. He need not give me the answer now, but it is interesting to see what embarrassment the question caused.

There are other matters about which the hon. member for Houghton put a few questions to me, to which I shall reply later in the debate. I am aware that the hon. member for Musgrave still wishes to discuss two other matters with me which he raised this morning. I shall reply to them after he has discussed them. At this stage I want to confine myself to one remark which does have reference to the first speech by the hon. member for Houghton this afternoon.

†Sir, can you believe it that the hon. member storms into this debate accusing the police of baton charging children who have not done anything wrong? Here we have 900 or 1 000 young children calmly going to school and these big policemen are storming into the school grounds baton charging these children. That is the message that the hon. member tried to get across before lunch today. For what purpose did the hon. member do that? She knows very well that her view is not based on the true facts. If not, I shall give her the facts. She knows very well, however, that there was no baton charge whatsoever at Westbury in Johannesburg before the children started throwing stones at the police. They hurt policemen, they damaged our vehicles, and after proper warnings by the police, the police did what they had to do and charged them. It was only after they had begun to throw stones at the police that the charge took place. According to my information it was not the mass of youngsters in the school grounds, but youngsters outside in the street who initiated the stone throwing. I believe some of them hurled eggs as well. Ultimately the whole affair turned into a proper public disorder. Does the hon. member for Houghton really want to tell me that the police are not to act under circumstances such as those?

The police chased them out of the grounds into the street. Why could they not leave them in the school grounds?

If a youngster throws a stone at a policeman, that policeman is entitled to charge him. What is more, if such a youngster throws a stone at a policeman that policeman is entitled to charge him right into his own mother’s home and out again.

Yes, even into Helen’s home. [Interjections.]

I am sorry, but the hon. member for Houghton must accept that the police have a duty to perform.

I do accept that.

The police did not go to that school to take any particular action. They did not go to that school to perform a baton charge on those children. Not at all. The senior police officer was talking to the children in the presence of the headmaster and other staff members when the commotion started outside in the street.

They were chased into the street.

Only after policemen had been injured and vehicles damaged did some of the policemen charge some of the children and other youngsters who were throwing stones.

Does the hon. the Minister say that policemen were injured?

Yes, according to my information there were policemen injured. I have had an incident in Durban in mind for a moment, but I know that the policemen at Westbury were also hit by stones.

*I just want to know from the hon. member for Houghton why she always has to couch things like this in such terms. After years of experience the hon. member surely knows that every time she stands up and adopts this attitude here, not a word is published of the whole debate—including today’s police debate—except for what she said. Tomorrow it will be banner headlines in every foreign newspaper.

†The hon. member knows it. Why does she not make sure of her facts before she makes allegations like these?

I did make sure of my facts. I spoke to the parents of these children, to members of the community and to the headmaster of the school. [Interjections.]

They all mislead you.

I appreciate the concern of the parents in question. I was also informed of the parents’ attitude and of their concern about what happened there. I appreciate that. I do believe, however, that the hon. member for Houghton, as one of the senior members of this House, should not make that type of accusation unless she is sure of her facts, and if she is sure of her facts, she still should not make such a speech. I should like to place on record that the police did not baton charge children or other youngsters.

*I shall reply later with regard to other matters which may stand over from the speeches made up to now.

Mr. Chairman, I should just like to thank the hon. the Minister for his announcement on the improved salaries and conditions of service. I am not thanking him on behalf of the Randburg police, but on behalf of the public. The people there will be even more grateful than the police themselves.

I should just like to express a few thoughts on the refrain which echoed through the speeches made by hon. members of the Opposition, the refrain of “bobbies on the beat”. I think it is time we realized that the onus of preserving order and security rests not only on the State, but is also a duty imposed on the community itself. We accept this in many other facets, for example as far as neatness, cleanliness, etc., are concerned. We do not, for example, argue that it is the exclusive obligation of a municipality to keep an urban area clean.

For example, as far as education is concerned, the community itself also offers assistance in respect of extra-mural activities and many other things. Perhaps the best example of all is the task of the Executive Authority and Parliament to formulate policy. There is no one who is not prepared to assist in this respect. However, when it comes to maintaining security and order, the burden is time and again imposed solely on the Police Force.

I just want to point out what is going on in Randburg. What is happening there is that a group in the community has taken the lead and has conducted a survey to determine what the attitude of the public is as far as their feelings towards the police, and more specifically as far as their participation in the activities of the Reserve Police Force are concerned.

Unfortunately time will not allow me to inform hon. members of the details of this survey. One of the subheadings under discussion concerned the possibility of establishing a home guard, the principal duties of which would be the protection of personal property as well as the adjacent properties in a particular ward or street. A mere 13% of the people in Randburg indicated that the existing police protection services were adequate. 86% of the people indicated that they were willing, together with a fellow member of the home guard, to do patrol duty in the neighbourhood for a number of hours per month, and that they would also study legislation which would then affect them. 84% of the people saw their way clear to undergoing training and in fact also believed that they would have the time to discharge their duties properly.

Although existing legislation takes into account the most important duties of a prepared reservist force, viz. the reinforcing of the Police Force and the safeguarding of residential areas and strategic points, their implementation in Randburg at that stage did not comply with their intention. Inter alia, no distinction was made between the physical duties of group A and B reservists, and B reservists were also expected to render the same services as A reservists. In the second place they were expected to report to the charge office in Randburg, which is anything but centrally situated, whenever they went on or off duty. Consequently this also meant that a reservist, when he had to go on duty or even when a critical situation or an emergency arose, had to leave the very area he was supposed to protect. There are a few other lesser aspects which I do not want to go into in detail.

The point is that a report was submitted to the former Minister of Justice and to Gen. Geldenhuys on 11 December 1978 and that permission was obtained to develop a model. At the beginning of 1979 it was put into operation. A specific effort was made to eliminate friction and any demotivating factors. The creation of a reservist auxiliary association as an organizational framework also comprised part of this model. In practice Randburg and its suburbs were divided into wards. In every ward a ward management committee was appointed, which accepted responsibility for the training and management of the reservists.

The S.A. Police have neither the time nor the manpower to launch a major campaign for the recruitment of reservists. In present circumstances recruitment takes place on a man-to-man basis. Recruitment evenings are being held where all application documents are completed and photographs for identification purposes are taken. This prompt service immediately eliminates friction for the busy urban dweller. Problems which may still crop up, are then dealt with by the Reservist Auxiliary Association on behalf of the applicant.

In the second place training is provided in the wards on a decentralized basis. Aspirant reservists receive home study models as well as sound cassettes. Practical instruction is provided during group evenings. This systematic and scientific training results in the transference of planned knowledge and skill which means that participants are indeed being motivated.

In the third place the Reservist Auxiliary Association is specifically able to gear itself to the collection of funds in order to cover administrative costs as well as to purchase teaching aids.

In the fourth place the reservist does foot patrol duty in his own ward for an average of four hours per month. This is done in the practical work situation together with a colleague. Reservists receive their duty instructions from and report back to the ward leaders and consequently need not cover long distances to the charge office to report for duty there. As soon as they have been trained, they are also equipped with uniforms.

In these smaller groups a team spirit and cameraderie is cultivated. Because they do duty in their own neighbourhood, a greater feeling of involvement and attachment is generated. The men enjoy walking around the neighbourhood with fellow reservists. The first group of approximately 90 reservists went on duty in September 1979. Since then the number has grown to 130 and a further 30 men are at present undergoing training.

At this stage it is difficult to evaluate the project, but the S.A. Police in Randburg as well as the town council’s health division have indicated that there is a considerable decrease in loitering in Randburg. It is too early to observe a trend in the crime rate, but this too is still to be checked. The motivation of these men is very good. So far only two have resigned. As far as the long-term results are concerned, there is already an indication that a greater sense of security is being felt by the community. The regular presence of these men in police uniforms has a positive effect on all persons in this area. I also think that the visible preparedness will have a negative influence on possible insurgence. Furthermore the friendly, relaxed contact which these men have in passing with members of all population groups in Randburg also gives rise to better individual and group relationships.

I believe that we in Randburg are dealing with a successful model which can be developed and expanded into an important component of our total preparedness strategy. I know, too, that the hon. the Minister and his department are at present, and in fact continually, giving attention to this matter, and in this respect I should also like to convey my gratitude to the hon. the Minister, to Gen. Geldenhuys and to the department.

Having said all this, I also have a small axe to grind with the hon. member for Bryanston. That hon. member is actually a far more pleasant person outside this House than he is here, however difficult it may be for hon. members to believe this. In May last year he put a considerable number of questions to the hon. the Minister of Police in this House which dealt with the manpower situation in the Randburg police station. Subsequently there was a great row in a local newspaper in Randburg because the hon. member had kicked up such a fuss and had demanded that there should be more foot patrols. He made the statement: “There is no substitute for the bobby on the beat.” I have no fault to find with what he said, but this is to no avail for, as I said at the beginning, the responsibility does not rest on the State alone. The responsibility lies with the community as well. But what is an even greater cause for concern is that whereas at that stage the project was already in progress, the hon. member made his remarks without referring to the project or giving any credit to it. There are Afrikaans- and English-speaking people, there are members of all parties and this creates dissatisfaction, to such an extent that voters of the official Opposition are crossing over to us, something for which we are grateful, but we prefer having peace and goodwill in the area to gaining voters because of the dissatisfaction of the community.

Finally, I just want to say that a project of this nature is something which must not be undertaken haphazardly. By explaining what is happening there, I am not trying to make an appeal to other areas to launch the same project, but I do want to suggest that the department should examine this model properly to ascertain whether it cannot be developed to something which can work effectively throughout this country, can supplement the manpower situation and can also lead to a happy and relaxed police corps in our country. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should very much like to associate myself with all the previous speakers’ fine words of praise to the men and the handful of women of the S.A. Police. I should like to add to that the words I uttered in 1977, when I said the following (Hansard, col. 9401)—

Because I am immensely interested in all aspects of South African history, I did some research into the history of the S.A. Police. I went back to the year 1840, 140 years ago. I should like to start there briefly and draw a few comparisons between then and now.

The history books tell us that in the year 1840 the officer in charge of police in the Cape was a certain Mr. King, with the rank of inspector. His total Police Force consisted of 45 men. But what is interesting is that we find that during the period when he was in charge, from 1840 to 1855, although his maximum number of men at any time was 45, he had to discharge 749 as a result of drunkenness, bad behaviour, laziness, theft, etc., and this within a period of 15 years. One can therefore argue that he had to start with a new force of 45 men every year because the percentage of discharges amounted to more than 100%. In contrast, we now have 18 464 Whites in the S.A. Police. The supreme command of the police found it necessary to discharge a mere 41 men out of the more than 18 000 last year due to misconduct. This is a very small fraction of 1%. We can congratulate them on that.

I also found that in 1912, when Gen. J. B. M. Hertzog was Minister of Police, the Force consisted of 105 White officers, 4 022 White policemen, 285 men in his criminal bureau and 1 407 Coloureds, Indians and Blacks. This gives a total of 5 819. In December 1922, ten years later, when Mr. Tielman Roos was Minister of Police, the Force consisted of 158 White officers, 6 089 White men and 3 948 non-Whites. This gives a total of 10 195. In 1972 there were 1 792 White officers, 15 083 White men and 15 390 non-Whites. This gives a total of 32 265. In 1979 there were 18 464 Whites and 15 612 non-White men. This gives a total of 34 076, but at that stage there were also 960 women in the Force.

I also find that from 1910 up to the present day there have been 14 Ministers of Police and 11 Commissioners of Police. Among the Ministers there have been great names such as Gen. Hertzog, Mr. Tielman Roos, Advocate Pirow, Gen. J. C. Smuts, Dr. Colin Steyn and Mr. B. J. Vorster.

I now turn to a matter which concerns my constituency. I do not apologize for doing so, since I am here to represent my constituency and my people, and it is a pleasure to do so. My constituency, Meyerton, is by far the largest constituency in the Vaal Triangle-Alberton area as far as the number of voters is concerned. Hon. members can imagine how I and my Nationalists had to work there to get the names of all those people on the voters’ roll. Surely, then, I must look after their interests. As far as numbers are concerned, this is also one of the largest constituencies in the Transvaal. Of the 19 430 voters in the Meyerton constituency, 5 400 are situated in the northern area of my constituency, viz. the Brackenhurst and Brackendowns residential area.

I want to thank the hon. the Minister and his department for having already approved in principle the building of a police station in the area of Brackenhurst and Brackendowns. Due to the many inhabitants, the vast Black residential areas virtually adjacent to it and a Coloured township, I want to make a very earnest appeal to the hon. the Minister to give serious attention to expediting the policing of that area by establishing a police station there.

Whenever I see a young policeman I recall a very pleasant experience which I, as a young man, shared with a very young police constable 25 years ago. It was a pleasant experience which could have developed into a major tragedy if it had not been for the assistance of the young policeman. I have many Black workers on my farm. One Sunday evening my Black induna came to my house and said: “Sir, you must come and help. There are about 100 tsotsis from the location at the town who have come here, and they say they are going to murder me and all of my people tonight.”

I want to tell the Opposition that I never fail to be struck and deeply moved at the fact that when the Black people have a problem and feel that danger threatens, they know that they can turn to the White man, because the White man will stand by them and will help them, This is the situation between White and Black on our farms.

After the induna had said this to me, I fetched my shotgun, but when I came to the cupboard in which I keep the cartridges I discovered that I had only two cartridges left. I took the cartridges and as I ran past, asked my wife to telephone the police and to tell them to come and help, because I had only two cartridges.

And my name is Van der Merwe. [Interjections.]

She 1’phoned the police, and there was only a young constable on duty. She told him: “My husband has only two cartridges in his gun.” He replied: “Lady, I am on duty alone. I have only my revolver and five cartridges, but I am coming to help.” I had hardly arrived at my Black people, when the young constable also turned up. By dint of calm, rational behaviour that evening, the two of us prevented a real blood-bath among the Black people.

The young constable then returned to the police station with his revolver with five cartridges and I returned home with my shotgun and two cartridges. However, I was not aware that there was a large reserve of power on the next farm. In those years we were on a party line and there were eight farmers on the same party line. When I came home my wife said: “What I found so wonderful and reassuring was that shortly after I had replaced the telephone after having 1’phoned the police, one of our neighbours 1’phoned to say: ‘Neighbour, if I have to come and help, just say the word; I have two Mausers and 500 cartridges!’” [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to conclude by saying that even today we have young men of that calibre in the police. As long as we have young men of that calibre, like that young constable who assisted me that evening, the order, peace and justice of South Africa are in safe hands.

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Meyerton will pardon me if I do not comment on his speech. I would rather, because it is a matter of great concern to me, refer to the policeman himself. One cannot show enough gratitude in emphasizing what great appreciation we have for the way in which we are received at Parliament and taken leave of in the evening. The presence of the police gives us a feeling of great security. I believe every member of this House is treated with the greatest respect by the police, irrespective of political affiliation, because the police are above politics. We should like to convey our very sincere gratitude to these men.

On this occasion I should also like to say that it is a pleasure for us this afternoon to be able to look across this House at the neatness of the Commissioner of Police and his colleagues seated beside him in the officers’ benches. Truly a credit to the Force. I had the privilege of being able to tell him that personally shortly before dinner. The Commissioner told me I should not keep saying that, otherwise they would wear those uniforms every day.

As the son of a policeman who served from 1922 to 1948, I would be neglecting my duty if I did not make at least a small contribution to this debate. I was able to share in the joys and sorrows of the policeman, even though only through the eyes of a child. But I can say that I formed some lasting impressions. Do we and the man in the street not often expect of the policeman that he risk his most precious possession, his life, for us in the course of his duties? Surely we expect the policeman to do what we ourselves are not always capable of doing. After all, he is paid to do it. That is why he has to see to our safety and ensure that law and order are maintained.

To link up with certain aspects to which I referred in my maiden speech, viz. the progress made in the Republic over the past decades, I want to say that the achievements attained would not have been possible if there had not been those who could ensure that law and order are maintained. I want to refer briefly to the maiden speech of my colleague, the hon. member for Brentwood. Using fine imagery he sketched the marriage of a very young couple. Arising out of this marriage were the teacher, the nurse and the policeman. I should like to single out the policeman, who, in his quiet but reliable way ensures that our towns, cities and country are protected against crime. All of us will certainly agree that one could never thank them adequately. The S.A. Police are undoubtedly among the best in the world. The high standard which is maintained, is unsurpassed. It is often said that a person is born or even called to the task or work he does. That is why I have no doubt that the policeman is born to his task, due to his sense of fairness and integrity.

Let us look at the characteristics of the policeman. I would say that they are the following: Loyalty, discipline, self-control, unselfishness, courtesy, helpfulness, willingness to serve, sympathy, humility and neatness.

Now you are describing an angel.

The history of the Police Force since its inception is indubitably a proud one. The Police Force has distinguished itself in many spheres. During the Second World War the S.A. Police Brigade proved itself to be a formidable combat unit in North Africa, and did so while fighting amongst units of world class. Thus we can have no doubt that a good account has to be given of the achievements of the past, particularly with a view to the future.

Because of prevailing circumstances, an unenviable responsibility rests on the shoulders of the hon. the Minister of Police and the Force. So much the more they deserve greater appreciation and gratitude from us, the public. I want to convey my sincere gratitude to the hon. the Ministers of Police and of Finance for the latest increase in the policeman’s remuneration. We are aware of the delicacy of the situation. Nevertheless I want to avail myself of this opportunity to ask that if possible, the hon. the Minister should again consider how we might pay our trusted friend, the policeman more.

I should also like to avail myself of this opportunity—this comes a little late for there have already been so many requests for new police stations today—to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister that over the past eight years during which I have served on the Germiston City Council, we have on various occasions had discussions with the Government committee. The discussions concerned the establishment of a new police station and a new morgue, including a new magistrate’s office. I also brought this to the attention of the Minister of Public Works in the Standing Committee this morning. This is not something one sees these days: I cannot imagine there being a police station and magistrate’s office in Adderley Street or in Eloff Street in Johannesburg. I am pleased that the Deputy Minister of Community Development is present too, for I believe that at the moment, the Government possesses between 15 and 20 ha of land in the immediate urban area. The feeling is that all three of these complexes could be built on that land and that in that way we could establish facilities for Germiston which are at present absolutely impractical. The land at present occupied by the police station and the magistrate’s office is probably some of the most expensive in the city. Therefore, if we can utilize our other State land to establish the police station where it will be more practically situated, I believe that the premises which would then be vacated could be made available to the private sector. In this way we could stimulate our immediate business centre.

Mr. Chairman, I have a number of matters that I want to raise with the hon. the Minister in the very limited time at my disposal at this stage in the debate. Before doing so, however, let me just react quickly to the statement made by the hon. the Minister this afternoon in regard to the revised system of promotion within the Force. The hon. the Minister was courteous enough to give me a copy of his statement earlier. Having listened to the hon. the Minister, I believe that this is a welcome step. I believe that it it should certainly act as an additional incentive for young members of the Police Force.

I remain firm in my criticism of the police salary scales, despite what the hon. the Minister has said in his reply. I was specific this morning when I dealt with the matter. I said that in the upper ranks the scales, whilst not exciting, were at least moderately good, but I specifically said this morning that when one came to the lower scales, one found the greatest room for criticism. I still maintain that belief.

I now want to come to another matter the hon. the Minister himself also dealt with— and I was pleased that he did deal with it—and that is the whole question of the police and the Press and the relationship between the two. This is vitally important and one has felt disturbed, particularly in recent months, by what has seemed to be a breakdown of good communication between the Press and the Police in South Africa. The fact that the hon. the Minister has said that the Police have had a look at themselves and that their public relations department have reported on the matter, is to a certain extent reassuring. We know that the Steyn Commission referred to a number of matters relating to liaison between the Press and the Police. Parts of the Steyn Commission report offer some very good advice. I want to refer the hon. the Minister particularly to the Steyn Commission’s comments in paragraph 452 on page 202 of the report, and I quote—

This refers to information relating to national security and related matters—

So it asks for a balance in the relationship between the Press and the Police. The Police and Press are often interdependent in their operations. In crime detection and in the dissemination of news they often depend on each other, and I believe that there has generally been a very good relationship, around the country, between the normal crime reporter of a newspaper and the local police office. I think this has worked very well, and it would be a great pity if this sort of co-operation between Police and Press did not continue. It is necessary, however, for the Police to look at their own communications with the Press very carefully indeed. I do not want to go into the detailed comments of the Steyn Commission on the Silverton siege again. The Steyn Commission accused both the Press and the Police of being at fault in the breakdown in communications in that instance. Certainly, that sort of situation should be avoided in the future, and the setting up of command posts, and a communications system, might well do that.

There is another aspect to which I must refer, relating to the incident that took place at the Booysens police station, where I think a member or members of the Government-supporting Press had considerable difficulty with the police and I think they were in fact manhandled while seeking information. From the Press reports—and the hon. the Minister will probably believe that section of the Press more than others—it would appear that the police acted in a high-handed fashion which certainly is not good for relations between the police and the Press.

Finally, on the question of Press and police, I hope that the hon. the Minister, when he examines the Steyn Commission’s report—and we have been told that legislation in this regard is likely during this session of Parliament—is not going to be tempted to take out of the Steyn Commission’s report the very tough provisions which are going to impose further curtailment upon Press reporting, because I think that this in itself is going to harm good relations. [Interjections.] The hon. the Minister says that that will be a matter for next week when the legislation will be available. I shall therefore reserve my comments until I have seen the legislation. However, I must tell him that I have some fears in this regard.

Then I want to come immediately to the question of the setting up of a junior police reserve involving schoolboys. I ask the hon. the Minister to deal with this. When I reacted to a Sunday Times report on this matter a few weeks ago, the hon. the Minister criticized me very sharply, saying that in fact I had been irresponsible in reacting to a Press report. Quite frankly, I do not understand his anger on this aspect. When I put a question to him, he confirmed the accuracy of that report. My question, put on 30 April, was whether schoolboys were assisting members of the S.A. Police in the execution of their duties, how many schoolboys were involved and whether the S.A. Police had had any discussions on the establishment of a junior police reserve. The hon. the Minister replied that a number of schoolboys did assist members of the S.A. Police Force on a voluntary basis. He went on (Questions, 30 April, col. 676)—

That confirmed what the Sunday Times reported.

Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt the hon. member for Musgrave on a personal note? It may be of some assistance if I point out to the hon. member that he is reading from the official reply that was handed in, although I gave another answer in this House. I just want to assist the hon. member.

I am reading from the official answer, which, as I say, confirms the report as it appeared in the Sunday Times. I want to say, therefore, that I adhere to the views which I expressed in the Sunday Times, and I am very concerned about the possibility that the youth, the schoolboys, of South Africa might well be involved in police activities. This is a time in the lives of young people when they should be concerned with more beneficial and pleasurable pursuits, rather than in police activities, which in the very nature of things are activities involving the more sordid side of life in South Africa. I do not believe that that is the sort of situation into which we want to see the young schoolboys of South Africa being brought. I also believe that it could give rise to an invidious situation where a young teenager might be seen to be exercising authority over an adult, irrespective of the racial issues involved. There were other matters that I wanted to raise, but unfortunately my time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, the positive attitude of the hon. member for Musgrave to the announcements made by the hon. the Minister on the promotion opportunities in the S.A. Police Force are welcomed. We also welcome the rather careful attitude adopted by the hon. member with regard to liaison between the hon. the Minister, the Police and the Press as such.

In respect of this matter, I should just like to emphasize, without reopening the debate once again, that the lessons which were learnt from the recent events in London were on the one hand that there must be an openness with regard to information which is channelled to the public, but also, on the other, the fact that the Police must be afforded every opportunity of carrying out unhindered the task they are engaged in. Therefore I think that the announcements which the hon. the Minister also made earlier in this debate, viz. that a specific or particular structuring had taken place of the way in which information from the Police is channelled on an on going basis, via the hon. the Minister, via a liaison officer, from such a scene to the Press, are to be welcomed. But I do not believe that we should omit to emphasize once again that it is of the utmost importance that the Police must be in a position to carry out their task on the scene unhindered.

In the course of my speech I should also like to express another thought arising from the events at Silverton, and specifically relating to the interest of the public in events of this nature. Furthermore I should like to take issue with the hon. member for Musgrave on his general attitude to a junior Police Force as such. During the course of my speech, I think, I shall develop this argument more comprehensively. Mr. Chairman, I trust that neither you, nor the hon. the Minister, nor officers of the Police Force who are present here today, will level the charge at me, or even harbour the suspicion, that I want to impute the dignity of this House or of the aforementioned persons and bodies, with the following remark or two which I should just like to make.

The general Afrikaans term used by policemen to denote members of the public is “haasmanne” or “hase”. When they refer to the hon. the Minister they say, with great appreciation, that he is not a “haasman”. Just look at the hon. the Minister. He does not strike one as being a “haas”. He speaks the language of a policeman. Consequently I believe that the announcements made here by the hon. the Minister today have in no way harmed this image of his among the police. He has the image of being a champion of the police.

In the situation in which a recruitment officer examines a potential candidate for the Police Force in order to ascertain whether or not he will be suitable for the Police Force, the candidate in question or “haasman” is weighed up in order to ascertain whether he is suitable for the role of a policeman. What I am saying here now is factually incorrect. This does not really happen, but in the course of events it is theoretically possible that the recruitment officer in question could ask the following question: “Friend, when you are on patrol duty and you arrive at the scene of a burglary, what would your reaction be if the burglar fires shots at you?” The candidate replies that he, fearlessly and without hesitation, regardless of the imminent danger, would go after the burglar. The recruitment officer’s next question is then: “The burglar fires a shot at you, he shoots off your left ear. What would your attitude be in the face of this imminent danger?” Of course that candidate ought to have been disqualified at once because, after all, a policeman does not allow himself to be fired at. However, the candidates replies: “Regardless of the imminent danger, I shall continue to go after the burglar.” The recruitment officer then postulates the next question: “A second round of shots is fired and your other ear is also shot off. What is your reaction then?” The candidate replies: “I shall stop pursuing the burglar straight away.” “Why?” asks the recruitment officer. “Because, I can no longer see him; my cap has fallen over my eyes.” [Interjections.]

The hon. the Minister has survived all these things. Consequently I should like to associate myself with the previous speakers by telling the hon. the Minister that, in spite of the shots fired at him with regard to police salaries, his policeman’s cap is still firmly planted above his eyes, with both his ears still intact, and that he deserves praise, also for his determined attitude with which he constantly promotes the cause of the policeman and the relevant Government authorities. I think that we as South Africans derived strength and inspiration from the actions of the special police task force during the bank siege in Silverton. We draw inspiration from it because we believe that the police were successful there—and success stories are built on successes. There is nothing as demoralizing to terrorists than a successful operation by the authorities. Winners command respect whereas runners-up are not remembered at all. I think that as a result of these events the police can rightfully be referred to as winners. They were winners in the sense that, whereas the terrorists sought to derive maximum attention from the situation and to cause maximum doubt and insecurity in that way, the police did not act rashly and insolently, but warded off this onslaught skilfully. Now they are plying under the banner of winners.

I think this special task force is an exceptional unit for which only one out of every eight candidates who applies, qualifies. It is a young task force whose leaders derive their expertise from the expertise of similar units in other countries, for example Israel and West Germany. The general public also identifies itself very gladly and willingly with the success stories of the police. But it is not correct to regard the police as an arm of the authorities who seek only to enforce their policy by force. The police also distinguish themselves through their friendly conduct and that is why I do not think the hon. member for Musgrave was correct in implying in anticipation that he was opposed to any development of a potential junior Force. I think that the measure of success the police are able to achieve has a bearing to the number of people who are able to become involved in the activities of the Police Force. I do not want to make a police officer of every “haasman”, but I do want as many people as possible to develop understanding and sympathy for the work of the police. It is not expected that every scholar who is interested in assisting the police in a safe operation such as destroying dagga, the tidying up of a police station or the answering of a telephone so that more policemen are able to go on patrol, should subsequently join the Police Force, but the fact is that those people can promote affection, sympathy and understanding for the police. This sentiment they can also convey to their families and to the communities of which they are members. I think this is worthwhile. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is a special privilege for me, after all the years I have been in Parliament, to be able to participate in the debate on this Vote as well. I wish to thank the hon. Chief Whip and the group sincerely for the few minutes they have made available to me.

It is a deep felt need on my part to associate myself with those who have paid tribute to the S.A. Police today. If ever there was an organization which deserves to be treasured, it is the S.A. Police. It was also gratifying to hear from the official Opposition today that they, too, have now become advocates of improved salaries, in particular, for the S.A. Police. [Interjections.] Sir, the hon. members over there are merely out to chalk up a little cheap political gain. I shall get round to them in a moment, because I have a bone to pick with a few of those hon. members. Of course, all of us feel that the S.A. Police deserve better salaries. Now, all of a sudden, the PFP are the sanctimonious advocates of the rights and privileges of the S.A. Police, but in the 16 years that I have been sitting in this House of Assembly, I have very seldom heard them coming up for the S.A. Police. On the contrary, they have always spoken of the S.A. Police in the most derisive and derogatory terms. I should have liked to have submitted a list of the questions the hon. member for Houghton has tabled here over the years for reply by the hon. the Minister of Police. Every time the questions were put with the object of bringing the S.A. Police into discredit. That is unfortunately the position.

That is not the truth.

Well, then I hope the hon. member has now changed for the better.

What did the hon. member do this afternoon while the doves were cooing in this House? She started off with the youth, she started off with those pupils on the school grounds and said these were premises where they should enjoy immunity to say and do whatever they liked. Those pupils are living in an orderly country, and in such a country a child, including my child, has to go to school even though the facilities may not be ideal, and make use of those facilities. I expect a responsible frontbencher of the Opposition to make her voice heard by saying to the parents of those children: “It is you who have to see to it that your children go to school, and not the S.A. Police.” That is what one would expect of her. If it were my child, I would tan his hide for him and see to it that he went back to the school benches were he belongs.

But what does the hon. member do? She comes here and spends the entire afternoon complaining about the lesser and minor infringements of the law and about the numbers. After all, the people who commit those offences are the people who are making things so difficult. She should rather tell those people to behave themselves in an orderly way, regardless of whether they like the law or not. I have also had to live under many laws which the old United Party régime had passed and which were not to my liking at all, but as a law-abiding citizen of the country, I simply had to comply with them. That is the duty of every orderly citizen of the State. One does not expect the Opposition to come here and act in this way.

The hon. member for Green Point just wanted to mention that there were two instances where the police had been overzealous. Why does he not mention all the hundreds, all the thousands, of instances where the police have acted calmly and with restraint?

One takes it amiss of the hon. members of the Opposition for always levelling the accusation that it is solely the Government’s fault that there is a manpower shortage in the S.A. Police because of the salaries and conditions of service. After all, they are the people who are creating an unfavourable climate for the S.A. Police in South Africa. They are the people who are for ever making the general public suspicious of the S.A. Police.

It so happened that I was present at Sharpeville on 20 March 1960, and the greatest thing I shall always remember in my life is the calm behaviour of the late Captain Cawood that morning in the face of a vast crowd of 6 000 or 7 000 people, incited to the point of frenzy. The officer in charge had only 13 men. If one had seen how he handled that situation, one could not but pay tribute to the S.A. Police. What did that hon. member do? I regret having to go back so far into the past. Then she acted as a firebrand in South Africa and the S.A. Police were derided. After all, we know how the hon. member behaved here a few years ago on the steps of the St. George’s Cathedral. After all, we know all those stories. One feels pleased if they have now come to their senses and are also saying a good word about the police.

I wish to conclude by saying that I have the highest regard for the S.A. Police. One needs merely think of their actions and I have just pointed out how those men remained cool and calm during the Sharpeville and Vanderbijlpark riots, under the most severe and most difficult circumstances. At night when we sleep peacefully in our beds—yes, even the hon. member for Houghton and, if she should happen to have a person unlawfully present in her backyard, that person also sleeps peacefully—then the S.A. Police have to ensure peace and order in South Africa. It is for that reason that one pays tribute to the police. [Interjections.]

Not only must we recognize the loyalty of the S.A. Police, but also their integrity. It was tragic to read recently how the police had to arrest one of their colleagues. What was even more tragic, was the fact that his father had been an officer in the S.A. Police. But they saw to it that law and order took its course. We hear very little about this integrity.

I wish to conclude.

Again?

The S.A. Police have not only maintained peace, but they have caused the name of South Africa to be held in high esteem throughout the world. We think of sportmen such as Lucas Strachan, Tom van Vollenhoven and Hannes Brewis. It is a pity that there is not going to be a bobby in the team to play against the Lions. I am perturbed about that and we shall have to do something about it.

Mr. Chairman, rising to speak in this debate I feel some nostalgia, particularly when I recall the days when I first made the acquaintance of the mounted police. When he came over the ridge at Bormansdrif with that shiny thing on his khaki cap sparkling in the sun, we cleared the path and cleaned out the stable to accommodate his horse. That evening the circuit court sat in Bormansdrif. When the sun rose the next morning, there were no problems, and everything was settled and arranged. If the hon. the Minister wishes to make a good contribution, he must please instruct the Commissioner of Police to have a serial written in the Police bulletin—even if it takes three years to find all the information in their archives—on “my horse and I as circuit court at the beginning of the 20th century in South Africa”. This would make very interesting reading matter and would be a fine contribution to our culture.

To some extent I am sorry for another reason as well. I am sorry that at my age a man should have to complain about the extent to which the hon. member for Houghton applies tactics to lead one astray. I am no longer at the age where a man is easily led astray. [Interjections.] The hon. member mentioned children, adolescents who are handled roughly by the police, and she specified that on one occasion a young tsotsi was shot during a motor-car theft. As a result he became paraplegic. Is the hon. member aware of how many paraplegics there are in the police as a result of the irresponsible action of tsotsis? That does not interest her. [Interjections.] I think it is irresponsible and totally onesided to make a statement such as this in a responsible place such as this House.

He is talking rubbish.

Let me continue. I do not wish to pay tribute to the police in general. We have heard a great deal about that this afternoon. I want to describe an experience which I had one afternoon with one of the Minister’s fine men. The hon. the Minister’s men are enterprising and responsible people. It happened on one occasion that I invited the predecessor of the hon. the Minister to my farm to shoot guinea-fowl. The previous afternoon I went out to make sure that there were indeed birds on the farm because I did not want to disappoint my Minister. The present hon. Minister’s invitation is coming; it just depends. When I went to make sure whether there were indeed any pheasants I took my pickup and my dog and drove around the farm. I saw a few pheasants in an arragrostus field and shot one. I left my pickup and shotgun where I had stopped and went to pick up the bird. Then a white Valiant drove right across my farm road and came to a halt next to my pickup. The man saw the gun. He walked up to me and asked: “Is this your pickup, Sir?” I replied in the affirmative. He said: “I see there is a gun in there.” I said: “Yes, that also happens to be my gun.” When he asked whether he might know who I was I told him: “Yes, certainly, but I should like to know who you are too, because you are the first policeman who has wanted to come and catch me on my own farm. I have respect for you. Tell me what your name is. Let’s shake hands.” We then shook hands. That evening, at home, the telephone rang. It was a call from Brits— that very same evening. One of the policemen of Brits phoned and asked if I were Mr. J. C. B. Schoeman. When I replied in the affirmative, he asked whether one of my water pumps was missing. When I said “no”, he said: “Last night at three o’clock I found a water pump belonging to you. Last night my dog and I took in charge a kombi full of stolen goods here in Brits. I detected that one of the pumps belonged to you. Vetsak manufactured the pump and you bought it at the co-operative at Brits.” I replied: “Really, that was fast work. You know more than I do. It must have been one of my sons who bought the pump in his father’s name.” That was indeed the case. The policeman found my pump, without instructions and long before I could even institute proceedings.

Surely these are wonderful people! Surely these are people who should not be brought under suspicion. We should be glad to know such people, and that they are part of our community. They see to our safety and protect what we have worked hard for. The experience of the police I gained in one afternoon of my life gave me more than ordinary trust in them. I have a deep regard, respect and reverence for them. I should like to express my thanks to the police, among other things for the wonderful discipline they exert. Let the others squabble. We have a job to do and the police have a job to do. Thank God for the knowledge and the confidence that they will do it, and do it with honour.

Mr. Chairman, it has been a long time since we last navigated such calm waters during the discussion of the Police Vote as we have been doing this year. I think the hon. the Minister has a lot to do with it, as well as the police themselves. This is probably the case, too, because the Opposition has lost some of its sparkle and no longer has as much criticism as in the past.

A great deal of praise and expressions of gratitude have been conveyed to the Police Force during the discussion of this Vote. I want to associate myself with the praise and gratitude expressed, but I do feel that in these dying moments of this discussion I should like to pay tribute to the policeman’s wife. It is the wife at home who makes it possible for the policeman to do his work effectively. We cannot imagine what a life the wife of a policeman usually leads. Loneliness and worry are part of her daily existence. She experiences loneliness because having a husband in this profession often means that she is left alone at home. She has to manage the household alone and see to it that the food is ready when her husband comes off duty. The policeman does not have a fixed time for arriving home for dinner, and so his wife has a hard time ensuring that he gets enough to eat. Furthermore, as the hon. member for Germiston, whose father was a policeman, said, the wife has to look after the children alone. She is concerned because she does not know what danger her husband may be in from one moment to the next. We wish to thank the wife of the policeman for the sacrifices she has to make it possible for her husband to do his work effectively.

I should like to say a few words in connection with stock theft. Stock theft has assumed tremendous proportions recently. It is causing so much concern that it was recently discussed at a special meeting of the South African Agricultural Union. Stock theft is taking place on an organized basis. Not only is it taking place near Black states or Black residential areas, but throughout the rural areas. I can tell hon. members that it is taking place not only in our country, but also in some of the Black states. I have here a newspaper report on Transkei, from which I quote this extract—

So our neighbouring states are also saddled with this problem.

We see in the annual report that during 1978-’79 no fewer than 23 745 cases of stock theft were reported. Of these only 46,5% were solved. According to Gen. Zietsman, Deputy Commissioner of Police, more than 130 000 head of cattle to the value of R6,5 million were stolen. Of these only approximately 30 000 were recovered.

Yet this is not the whole picture. The extent of stock theft is far greater than just the cases which are reported. Many cases of theft are not reported at all. At the meeting to which I referred, one of the speakers said—

Let me permit myself the wisdom of making two suggestions. Great expense is incurred in catching a cattle thief. I am referring, for example, to the manhours and the petrol consumption required to catch a cattle thief. When the police eventually catch the thief and bring him before the court where he is sentenced, only to see the offender walking around again a few days later because his employer has paid his bail, they become discouraged. I think it is a good idea to suggest that the penalties for stock theft should be drastically increased. In fact, they should indeed be increased to such an extent that they will serve as a deterrent. Furthermore I want to advocate that there should be better co-operation between the farmers, the farmers’ associations and the police. They must make a joint effort to curb this form of theft. I want to ask whether we cannot make a joint effort in the year ahead to eradicate stock theft as effectively as possible. As I have said, stock theft is taking place on an organized basis. The police even found the meat of a slaughtered bull in a bed. Let me add to that that it was an Africaner stud bull. The thief was a White person. His wife packed the meat in plastic bags and hid it in a bed in the house. That is why I want to ask that in the year which lies ahead we should make it our aim to clamp down on stock theft in co-operation with the farmers’ associations and the police.

Mr. Chairman, first of all I should like to reply to the three hon. members who have just spoken. Let me begin by replying to the hon. member for Winburg. In the first place, I appreciate his fine tribute to the wives of the policemen. I think it was well-timed. I can assure the hon. member that it will be appreciated. I shall also see to it that the hon. member’s sentiments are published in our Police magazine, Servamus, for the benefit of all the policemen’s wives, who will read it with appreciation.

I come now to the second part of his speech, which concerned stock theft. The department presently has 33 special stock theft units based at various places in the Orange Free State, Natal and Border divisions. These are the most difficult parts, and there we find the 33 units. These units are doing very good work indeed. They are very effective. I have received positive comment from the farmers’ associations in the vicinity as well as from other interested parties.

I should like to assure the hon. member that we shall even try to improve on this, depending on circumstances. This is a matter which enjoys top priority. We shall continue our efforts. It is very, very difficult to work which we all appreciate. It is difficult terrain and difficult circumstances under which the men have to work. Large areas have to be patrolled, but I think that generally speaking, the police do excellent work in these stock theft units. If I remember correctly, there was a fine series of articles in Volksblad and other newspapers recently about the policemen who are active on the Free State side of Lesotho, in co-operation with the Lesotho police. I must say we enjoy very good co-operation with the Lesotho Police when it comes to the combating of stock theft.

Unfortunately, I cannot help the hon. member with regard to the increased penalties, because that is a matter which falls under the hon. the Minister of Justice.

I can assure him that we shall go out of our way at all times to achieve co-operation between ourselves and the farmers’ associations. Recently a very interesting conference was held in Pretoria. The police invited the South African and/or Transvaal Agricultural Union, and Gen. Zietzman in particular took the lead. A very fruitful discussion was conducted that day to the benefit of both sides.

Now I come to those two old veteran colleagues, the hon. member for Witwatersberg and the hon. member for Vanderbijl-park. It was a pleasure to listen to these two men again, especially after the hon. member for Witwatersberg had addressed the hon. member for Houghton in such a kind and affectionate way. It is necessary that she be put in her place by a senior member from time to time. I could see the hon. member for Vanderbijlpark was enjoying it this afternoon, and I enjoyed it with him.

You can see how effective it has been.

I am glad he participated in the debate. It is a pity that he did not participate for so many years. I also thank him very much for his kind words about the S.A. Police.

The hon. member for Witwatersberg told some interesting stories about the S.A. Police. We all appreciate it.

I do not want to sound a false note at this late stage of the debate, but I am glad the hon. member for Witwatersberg also referred to the fact that there are paraplegics in the police, paraplegics whose disability is the result of their service in the Police Force. They became paraplegics at the hands of brutes, villains, thugs!

I hope you look after them.

Very little is said about that.

I hope you look after them.

And I hope the hon. member will make more frequent mention of them in her speeches.

I presume you look after them.

Yes, we are looking after them. I can give the hon. member an example. Just the other day at the Benoni police station …

The one thing does not offset the other, you know.

No, I just want to give the hon. member an example. When I attended the opening of the Benoni police station the other day, I met a detective-sergeant who had lost a leg in the operational area. He is back in the police service, serving as a detective-sergeant. He is well looked after. That is our approach. I can also give the hon. member other examples of policemen who are well looked after. I did, however, want to make the particular point that the hon. member for Witwatersberg emphasized and that is that one must also, from time to time, refer to those men in the Force who have suffered at the hands of brutes and terrorists.

I always ask a question about that. [Interjections.] I ask a question about that every single year.

It was with some nostalgia that I listened to the hon. member for Witwatersberg, who spoke about “my horse and I as circuit court”. Many of us who come from the rural areas remember those days. They were not so long ago either; only 20, 30 or 40, years ago. In those days, farmers did not go to the police station for these minor offences. They merely told their employees: “Wait until the sergeant comes.” The sergeant would come at any time within the next three months. Meanwhile, that employee who had committed an offence knew that the sergeant was coming. One fine day the sergeant would arrive, and then that farmer got all his employees together and told them: “I have been telling you for the past three months that you had to wait until the sergeant came, and here he is.” Then the sergeant and those employees went to the coach-house, and when he emerged, the court proceedings were over and there would be no further difficulty on the farm. It was a resounding success. It is a pity we cannot have that good old circuit court anymore. It was a great success.

I just want to tell the hon. member for Vanderbijlpark that he does not have to be worried—with reference to the Police sport heroes whom he mentioned—that there will not be a policeman in the Springbok team this year. I am prepared to assure him straight away that a policeman called Thys Burger of the Pretoria bobbies will be in the first test team against the Lions.

I should like to come back to hon. members’ speeches and I shall reply to the speech of the hon. member for Musgrave in due course.

The hon. member for Brakpan gave a splendid example of co-operation between community bodies and the police when he referred to the Brakpan city council. The Brakpan city council first voted money to build a small guard-house for the protection of the police station at Brakpan, but then we got into some trouble with Treasury regulations and that kind of thing. The Brakpan city council then decided that they did not want to be delayed by regulations and to waste time. So they voted another few thousands of rands and built that guardhouse. It is a great asset to the police station. That police station is now much better protected, and it is not costing the State a cent, because it was paid for by the Brakpan city council. I want to ask the hon. member for Brakpan to convey our appreciation to his city council for this fine assistance they have rendered us.

The hon. member for Pretoria Central raised a very important point, namely the psychological effect of the conduct of certain people, which may even amount to a psychological war against the S.A. Police in certain circles. We know that the SAANC has declared war on us, and they are proving it through their conduct. There are elements in South Africa which are greatly harming the police through their conduct. I do not wish to discuss the role of the Rand Daily Mail in this connection during this debate, but there are elements in South Africa which should consider what the result of their behaviour will be.

The hon. member for Verwoerdburg dealt very effectively with the hon. member for Houghton this afternoon.

How many people do you need against her?

We do not need any extra people.

For the rest, the hon. member made his usual solid contribution, and I thank him for it.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein East made an interesting contribution, and I want to tell him that I noted with appreciation the fact that the Bloemfontein East community is very sensitive to the matters he raised. It is only the hon. member for Bloemfontein East who is able to tell us in this House in such a special way that his people in Bloemfontein are really special people. They are people who deserve special treatment. I just want to tell the hon. member that the Commissioner of Police and I will take a special look at the problems of the people of Bloemfontein East.

Is there going to be a by-election there, too?

If it is at all possible, we shall make a contribution in this connection. I have already given particulars with regard to special clearing-up operations. Therefore I do not have to tell the hon. member what we are doing or can do from time to time in Bloemfontein as well.

The hon. member for Durban Central more particularly made representations regarding his local circumstances.

†However, the hon. member for Durban Central asked for a “sub-police station”— that is the term that he used—in the city centre of Durban, more or less in the area where the Durban centre is situated at present. I do not know whether that is feasible, but I shall look into the matter, I shall discuss it with the Commissioner of Police and I shall come back to the hon. member by letter a little later. I cannot give him any assurance at this stage. I know what the circumstances are, I have paid a visit to Durban Central, I know where the new station will be situated and I have been around that particular area, but I shall let the hon. member know in due course what we can do in regard to this position.

*Then I just want to say to the hon. member for Durban Central that if at all possible, hon. members should please accept the invitations they receive from the police command in their vicinity. This applies to the hon. member for Houghton as well. They should go and have tea with our men and chat with them. From the part of the police we invite hon. members to make contact with us. We should like to meet them. The commanding officers would like to discuss matters with them, which could be of importance to them in their constituencies.

I had a very cosy little chat with the Witwatersrand Command.

Well, well. I am very glad to hear that. [Interjections.] I am really very grateful to learn that. I am very glad that hon. members are making use of the invitations we are issuing to them in this connection.

The hon. member for Potgietersrus asked an important question. He wanted to know how the complement of policemen at police stations was determined and when it had last been done. It is done from time to time, but the way it is determined appears from the following particulars which I want to provide briefly. The following factors are taken into account in determining the complement of men at police stations: The size of the police district to be served, the population and composition of the population, the crime rate in the area, the number of road accidents, warrants and other legal documents, the number of corpses and inquests that have to be handled, the number of law-courts, places of detention, liquor premises, business concerns, airports, industries, power stations, strategic installations, the hours spent on extra-departmental services, as well as a variety of administrative factors. It is the whole broad spectrum that is taken into account by the inspectorate in determining what the complement of a specific police station should be.

Now I come to another matter I should like to raise. The hon. member also referred to the drop in the number of policemen per thousand inhabitants of the country. This is very important. I often receive complaints, and people often voice their concern about the question of police services. An aspect of this is the question of whether we have enough policemen to perform the necessary police services. I have had the matter investigated. The investigation has not been completed yet. Information is still being collected. However, the question is to what extent the increase in the number of policemen has kept up with the increase in the number of inhabitants of the country. If I remember correctly—I do not have the figures before me—the population in the Cape Peninsula has more or less doubled over the past 10 to 15 years, while the police establishment has probably not even increased by 20%. A similar position prevails in Johannesburg and environs, in Hillbrow, for example, and in other places where there has been a great increase in the population, but where there has not been a corresponding increase in the number of members of the Police Force.

We have a real problem, of course. We could very easily request the Public Service Commission tomorrow to approve 5 000 additional staff positions in the Police Force, if only we could get 5 000 additional recruits into the Police College. However, we cannot fill the Police College. Therefore it is no use applying for additional posts. We are doing a great deal to supplement the existing staff shortage. However, the problem of the population growth and a drop in the number of members of the Police Force remains. I want to refer to a few of the things we are doing to counter this problem. However, time does not allow me to go into detail. Of course, I hope that some of the things I have announced here today will induce young people to flock to the Police Force, so that we may fill our Police College, get our Police Force up to full strength, and apply for approval for additional posts we can fill. That is the one factor.

This brings me to the other factor. We are conducting an intensive survey throughout the Police Force at the moment in order to ascertain how many trained men there are who are doing work in buildings which could be done by civilians and/or women police. When this survey has been completed, we shall withdraw some of those people, and let them do police duty. Their jobs will then be taken by women police or by civilians who can be appointed to clerical and administrative posts.

In this connection I just want to point out, too, that the Commissioner and I have decided that we want to increase the number of policewomen as far as possible, even to double and more than double it, in the light of the facilities which can be made available at the Police College for the training of ladies. As soon as we can get the facilities available, we intend to train substantially more women as full-fledged members of the Police Force. To the same extent, however, we shall try to appoint civilians to do clerical work, so that our trained policemen may be available to perform police duties.

I should also like to reply to certain other matters that have been raised. I think I have largely replied already to the speech of the hon. member for Pretoria East, but I do want to reply to another matter that he mentioned. The hon. member referred to the fact that I announced as far back as September 1979 that we had decided to train Black, Coloured and Indian women as full-fledged policewomen. We have not quite got that scheme off the ground yet, because we have not been able to obtain the necessary training facilities at the various training colleges. However, we are trying to expedite the matter as far as possible and I hope that we shall be able to begin this training within the foreseeable future.

In this connection I just want to point out—I do not think the hon. member for Pretoria East referred to this—that the highest post currently occupied by a policewoman is that of brigadier. This should encourage ladies to aspire even to those high offices. I do not know when it will be possible to fill higher posts, but I think it is a fine achievement for a woman already to have attained the rank of brigadier.

†The hon. member for Houghton asked me a number of questions concerning people in detention and people who have been arrested. I am sorry I cannot supply all the relevant statistics off-hand, but according to the latest report, dated 30 April, I have received, 14 people have been detained in terms of section 6(1); 14 in terms of section 22(1) of Act No. 62 of 1966; and eight in terms of section 12B of the Internal Security Act, No. 44 of 1950. If these figures differ from any the hon. member for Houghton has available, we can make sure of them later on.

The hon. member has asked me some questions about the people who have been arrested and detained because of the schools boycott. 22 persons have been detained in terms of section 22(1) of Act No. 62 of 1966. The charges against nine of them have already been changed to charges under section 10. The investigation in respect of some others is still going on. It may be that we shall also change the charges against some of them to charges under section 10. I am not sure of the number involved. For the rest we are still investigating all the relevant matters. If we do not take them to court as soon as possible, we shall let them go as soon as possible. However, I cannot give the hon. member any further assurance in respect of these people.

The hon. member has asked me for statistics in respect of the people held in terms of section 13, but unfortunately I do not have the statistics readily available. However, I shall go into the matter and let the hon. member know what the position is.

Thank you.

The hon. member also referred to various actions for damages brought against the police. Unfortunately I do not have readily available the particulars concerning the question whether any payments have since been made, but I shall let the hon. member have this information.

The hon. member is still worried about the fact that too many people are being shot, but she is not worried about too many policemen being hurt.

Yes, I am. [Interjections.]

The hon. member has seriously asked that we should try our best to minimize it. Of course we are trying our best to minimize it. We have to act within the ambit of the law. No policeman derives any pleasure out of shooting any person, whether that person is guilty or not. It is an unfortunate event whenever it happens. I can give the hon. member that assurance. However, I take note of the hon. member’s particular concern about this. I think I have now covered all the matters the hon. member has raised.

*The hon. member for Randburg gave a very interesting survey of the activities of the police reservists in Randburg. I was aware of this reserve police force at Randburg. It is one of the best units in the S.A. Police. They are performing excellent service. They are fairly up to strength, if not quite up to strength. I have had an opportunity to exchange thoughts with a few of its members. We are very grateful for the fact that there are such faithful people who are performing their civil duty with so much enthusiasm. I should appreciate it if the hon. member would be so kind as to convey my thanks to them for the special way in which they are performing their civil duty there.

The hon. member for Meyerton said a few things in his characteristic way this afternoon, and also brought a few things home to us. He did so in a very positive way and gave an example we shall probably remember for a long time. I should like to tell him that his request with regard to the police stations at Brackenhurst and Brackendowns, for which approval has already been granted in principle, will receive our serious attention, and if it is at all possible, we shall try to expedite this matter for him there. We realize the problems that area has with its population increase and with the industrial and other developments there.

The hon. member for Germiston paid a fine tribute to the Police once again and referred, inter alia, to the action of the S.A. Police Brigade during the last World War. In this connection I should like to tell hon. members that the commanding officer of the S.A. Police Brigade, the well-known old Brigadier Cooper, who now has the rank of major-general, still lives and still enjoys good health. He is in such good shape that at the age of 90 he might just as well still have been in command of the S.A. Police Brigade. The hon. member’s representations about local matters are receiving attention and we shall give attention to them continuously. It is a matter which will not yield quick results, but we are giving attention to it continuously, and the hon. member may rest assured of that.

†The hon. member for Musgrave came back to the question of police salaries and service conditions. I think we have discussed that matter fully for the purposes of this debate, and I shall not go into that matter again. However, he did mention two very, very important factors. He also referred to the relationship between the police and the Press. I shall try to be as brief as possible.

*In this connection I only want to tell the hon. member the following in a few sentences. My approach is that we should maintain the most cordial relations with the Press. My approach is that from the police side we should be as frank as possible with the Press, and so we have been. Shortly after I became Minister of Police last year, I requested a discussion with the Press Union. The Commissioner, a few senior officers and I met the Press Union. We had a very beneficial and penetrating discussion about relations between the Press and the police, with regard to the Press Union, the agreement with the Police and so forth. During those discussions, the idea was also confirmed that there should be a liaison committee between these two bodies and that they should meet with one another from time to time to exchange thoughts about particular matters. That liaison committee has already come into operation between the police and the Press. The first discussion has already taken place, and there will be regular discussions from now on. Therefore this, too, was a fruitful discussion.

In the second place, I invited every single newspaper editor in South Africa to Pretoria to be our guest for a short conference of a few hours. I am very glad to be able to say that every editor who was invited did his best to be there, and the one or two who were not there had very good reasons and sent their deputy editors or other senior members of their staff. Once again it was a very fruitful conference we had all morning, with all the senior Pressmen of South Africa present, and in a very pleasant spirit. This includes everyone—Afrikaans, English and the people from the newspapers who have Black editors or otherwise. On this occasion I reaffirmed my approach to these people and said that we wanted to achieve a situation where we could talk to them in confidence. From the side of the police, we want to be able to talk to people in the Press with confidence, so that we may give them background music from time to time about a certain situation. Then they will have it available to them, and although they cannot use it at that stage, they may be able to use it at some future stage, but meanwhile they can bear it in mind when they have to evaluate other circumstances for the purposes of a report they want to write.

I arranged with the Press that from their side, five people would be made available per newspaper or per smaller group, namely the editor, the senior political correspondent and the next senior political correspondent, the senior crime reporter and the next senior crime reporter. After all, one of those five people will be available in an editorial office at all times when there are urgent matters to be discussed. We are also working on a system in terms of which an additional identification document can be issued to these persons with a view to their relations with the police. We pointed out to the Press that their five senior people, the editor and the others, had five senior people on our side as well, whom they could contact at any time. The senior people consist of myself, the commissioner, two deputy commissioners and the security chief. They can consult us about serious matters, such as serious crime and serious political and other national and international affairs. Therefore we have opened doors and we have created opportunities and a system which are working well, and we have a cordial relationship.

I told the Press that my office and I were not the Press Liaison Division of the Police. If a small mistake is made in the charge office at Pampoenfontein, they must not phone me about it. For that we have a Public Relations Directorate, which is commanded by a senior police officer with the rank of brigadier, an experienced man therefore. In addition, two members of the staff have been appointed from the private sector. They are senior professionally trained men from large newspaper groups. Both have the rank of lieutenant-colonel. Therefore we have brought in the professional man from outside to combine him with the policeman from inside. So we have people in our Directorate of Public Relations who speak the language of the Pressmen in the private sector with whom they come into contact. It is working beautifully. The Press greatly appreciates this staff of ours and their conduct. Our staff in the Public Relations Directorate is doing a fine job and building relations between us and the Press. I assure the hon. member that the Commissioner and I are going out of our way to open doors for the Press. We try to be available at all times on the basis I have described. Up to now we have done our share as far as possible.

Unfortunately, in such a situation, in spite of the good intentions on both sides, one sometimes has a puncture along the road. There have not been so many punctures on our side; however, there have been a puncture or two on the other side. But this is not the time to discuss that. I do not want to introduce a negative note into the debate. We are living with it and we shall find one another in the future. We and the Press discuss the punctures with each other outside this House and behind closed doors. I assure the hon. House that on the whole, the relations between the Press and the police and between the Press, the Police and the Ministry are excellent, and we shall continue to build on that basis.

†There is one further particular matter which I should like to mention, namely the junior police reservists.

*I really cannot help laughing in my sleeve a little at the hon. colleague of mine from Musgrave. He was phoned by the same Mr. Pieterse of the Sunday Times. He got the hon. member for Musgrave worked up about this junior police force we were going to establish. The Sunday Times published a big, sensational report, entitled “Outcry over schoolboy cops”. Yes, the hon. member for Pretoria Central mentioned their disrespectful tone, but we shall not go into that. The hon. member for Musgrave then decided that this was his opportunity. Since Parliament had opened this year up to this occasion, not a single hon. member of this House had uttered a word of criticism about the police, and this the hon. member for Musgrave could not longer tolerate. He decided that this was his change and he jumped on the band-wagon. What did he say? [Interjections.] I should like to read it, because the hon. member does not like it.

Ridiculous.

The hon. member issued a statement, and I am going to make the facts known. The hon. member issued a statement, but when I have supplied the facts to him, he will be very sorry that he did. I quote—

These are the words of the composed Durban advocate—

Please note, the “security situation”—

The report goes on to say—

Did he feel that way about the school boycott as well? [Interjections.]

The hon. member’s statement goes on to say—

He went on to talk about better police salaries.

Now the hon. member for Musgrave is very upset. What are the facts, however? I interrupted the hon. member because I just wanted to correct him when he was referring to the answer I had given. The answer that had been prepared was not the one I gave in this House. I deviated from it. The hon. member will realize that I only wanted to correct him, but I did not want to interrupt him unnecessarily. I said in my reply that the matter had been discussed with me by the Commissioner of Police, that he had had discussions with the Committee of Heads of Education, etc. So there is a small difference.

What are the facts, however, the facts which so terribly alarmed the hon. member for Musgrave, which he finds so shocking? When I have finished, Mr. Chairman, the whole House will agree with me, except the hon. member for Musgrave. The fact of the matter is that some time ago, the principal of the high school at Vryheid and enterprising police officers, in co-operation with the parents of pupils, came upon the sound idea that schoolboys over the age of 16 years could voluntarily help the police in certain tasks. Hon. members must bear in mind that a boy who is older than 16 years can join the police. Therefore a 17-year-old boy can be a full police constable and have powers of arrest, may be trained in the use of arms, etc. The principal, the police and the parents asked themselves: “Why can we not use these boys of ours to assist the police in some of these tasks?”

Because they are untrained and undisciplined.

This idea was followed up, and in December last year, 30 school boys who had been selected by the principal of the high school concerned, and who had received written permission from their parents, went to the Ubombo area with the police, under the supervision of police officers, non-commissioned officers and constables, where they helped the police to find game traps, among other things. The police also gave them talks about the police during this exciting trip. Elementary lectures were given to them and recruitment films were shown.

Are you still upset, Ray?

Yes.

In the same way I could give examples of other schools which took this up with great enthusiasm, for example at Utrecht, Groenvlei, Paulpietersburg, Ubombo, Empangeni, Eshowe, Vryheid and elsewhere. Then some of the police officers reported to the Commissioner, and the Commissioner and I discussed the whole matter. I said, “I think this is a brain-wave.” These senior boys find it exciting and adventurous, and on top of that, we present a good image of the S.A. Police to these boys. Some of them may join us.

Is it not a good thing, Ray?

No, not at all.

We are keen to have some of these boys in our service. [Interjections.]

Unfortunately I must be brief. My time has almost expired, and the hon. Whip is getting impatient with me.

This is the background of the whole affair, therefore. I then approved it. A responsible officer, the Head of the C.I.D., Lt. Genl. Visser, followed up this approval in principle—or call it the friendly encouragement from me and from the Commissioner—and he took it up with every Director of Education in South Africa. He also took it up with the Secretary for National Education. So he took it up with all responsible educational authorities. He has the approval of the educationists, the parents and the State, and it is at this stage that this Pieterse, to whom information had been given on a confidential basis, publicised this matter and used it for political purposes by means of this sensational report in the Sunday Times, in which it is said that the hon. member for Musgrave “to his horror had to take note of what was happening under his nose”. [Interjections.]

We are working on this scheme, and the idea is that with the approval of their parents and during holidays, these boys over the age of 16 years can be incorporated into the Reserve Police Force on the same basis as the B class reservists. In other words, they will receive some training and instruction. They will be taught how to use a handgun, how to put on handcuffs, etc. These are the elementary things with a B class reservist learns. The hon. member for Houghton shakes her head, but boys of the same age are full-fledged members of the police; now boys of that age are not allowed to serve in the Reservist Force, however. [Interjections.] We intend to use these boys like B class reservists, and during holidays they will also be used to some extent for the combating of crime, where they can be used in a meaningful way with the proper cooperation of senior members. To some extent they will also help with office services, in radio control rooms, in keeping registers up to date, etc. I have already said what training they will receive.

I just want to express a final thought. It is also our intention that these boys, who are 17 and 18 years old and are in Std. 9 or matric, may do guard duty on their own school grounds and in their own school buildings as police reservists when circumstances justify this, instead of other full-fledged members of the police having to do that kind of duty.

This is the background of the scheme. It is no junior police force such as the one which existed in Europe in the years before the Second World War, as some hon. members think. These are fine young boys who can serve in the Reservist Force. They will receive elementary training. Their parents, they themselves, the educationists, the police and the rest of South Africa are enthusiastic; only those two hon. members are not enthusiastic. [Interjections.] I regret that I have had to conclude such a pleasant day in a way in which the two hon. members find so upsetting, but they will get over it during the week-end.

I should like to conclude the debate by conveying my sincere thanks to all the hon. members for their contributions, for all their kind remarks and for the moderate criticism that was expressed. I should like to assure hon. members that it is a great privilege for me to work for the welfare of this great Force with the Commissioner of Police and every member of the Force. The S.A. Police will do its share to guarantee rest, order and peace in South Africa.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No. 24.—“Prisons”:

Mr. Chairman, I have been studying the report of the Department of Prisons quite conscientiously. The hon. the Minister was not there to hear. I have also looked into the estimates, and I see that the amount in the estimates for prisons has now gone up to R110 million, which is an increase of R10 million since last year. To my pleasure I notice that the daily average number of prisoners has decreased slightly, by 1 000 in fact. Last year the daily average number was 99 292 and this year the number is 98 292. That is still, however, a very high figure indeed for the daily number of prisoners in a country with the population South Africa has. The figure compares very unfavourably with countries such as the United Kingdom and the USA. It compares unfavourably with the United Kingdom pro rata, let alone in absolute terms, and it compares unfavourably with the USA pro rata.

I see that there is no change in the very high proportion of prisoners each year—I do not mean in the total, overall number of prisoners in prison at any one time. The report points out that one must distinguish between the number of prisoners in prison at any one time and the number of prisoners admitted in any one year. As regards the number of prisoners in any one year, the position is much the same as it was last year: There was a very high percentage of prisoners admitted during the year 1978-’79 who were sentenced to terms of imprisonment of up to six months. In other words, they are short-term prisoners. They constitute by far the largest percentage of the total number of prisoners admitted in the one year period we are examining. 98 709 prisoners of the 274 000 sentenced prisoners in 1978-’79 were sentenced to imprisonment terms of over one month and up to four months. 99 324 prisoners of the 274 000 were serving sentences of up to and including one month. If one looks at the tables at the back of the report, one finds there some very interesting correlations. One finds, for instance, that of the large number who were imprisoned for short periods, some 90% obviously represented people who had been taken in under the statutory crimes fisted in the table which refers to prisoners who have been taken in in respect of influx control, pass laws, etc.

That is table 18 on page 28.

Thank you. They were people who were taken in for infringements of what are known as influx control measures. If the hon. the Minister adds up the total number of males and females who were arrested in terms of the influx control provisions, he will find that it comes to the very high figure of 89 059. I must refer again to what I said under a previous Vote: This is really one of the major problems in South Africa, because the gaols are crowded with short-term prisoners and the police are kept occupied with this for an inordinate amount of time. I very much hope that the hon. the Minister in his joint capacities of Minister of Prisons and Minister of Police will be able to talk to his colleagues, the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Co-operation and Development, about this whole matter. His predecessor, I might say, was sympathetic in this regard. We had many arguments in the House—practically every year we used to have a stand-up fight about something—but there was one issue on which he and I were at one, and that was that the gaols were overcrowded with criminals being held for statutory offences. He felt that many of these offences should be reduced to misdemeanours rather than remain classified as crimes, and that they should not carry prison sentences at all. This is something I want to draw to the hon. the Minister’s attention.

While I am on the question of gaols, I want to refer to the answer I got last Wednesday to a question concerning prison warders who were killed or seriously injured by prisoners and prisoners who were killed by other prisoners. The figures are rather alarming. They go up each year. In any event, they did not go down in 1979. The number of warders seriously injured or killed is as follows: Ten seriously injured and none killed in 1977; one killed and 19 seriously injured in 1978 and 12 seriously injured and none killed in 1979. The number of prisoners who were killed by their fellow-prisoners—evidently we do not have statistics on the number of prisoners who were seriously injured by their fellow-prisoners—is as follows: 33 in 1977; 26 in 1978 and 28 in 1979. These figures have gone down somewhat, but they are still alarming and I am sure a lot of it has to do with the fact that these gaols are overcrowded and that it is very difficult indeed for the prison staff to exercise sufficient supervision over what is going on in these overcrowded cells when the prisoners are locked up at night.

Finally for today—I shall have another shot at this on Monday—I just want to ask the hon. the Minister what the position is regarding prisoners who are farmed out, so to speak, as labourers, and what supervision is exercised over them. They, the parolees anyway, are meant to receive a daily rate of pay and particular rations and their quarters are supposed to be supervised. Does the hon. the Minister have sufficient staff to be able to supervise the manner in which both parolees and prisoners who are doing work on the farms are treated and the manner in which they are fed?

Mr. Speaker, I move—