Mr. Chairman, I claim the privilege of the half-hour.

I want to deal with a number of matters relating to the Indian community, but primarily with the issue of poverty, the lack of job opportunities, inequalities in the field of education and the effect of operation of the Group Areas Act on the community. All these deficiencies can, I believe, be seen to be largely the effect of the operation of the apartheid policy amongst the Indian community.

These stark realities manifest themselves in almost every sphere in which the Indian community is involved, and the hon. the Minister and the Department of Indian Affairs must realize that they have a tremendous responsibility to ensure that the disabilities under which this minority group of our South African population suffer are removed.

It is true that there are wealthy and sometimes opulent members of the Indian community, that there are traders and professional men who, despite the racially restrictive conditions in the society in which they live, have managed to prosper. But it is totally wrong to believe that their quality of life is in any way typical of that of the rest of the community. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the members of the Indian community, who are intelligent, industrious and diligent people, suffer conditions of great hardship and poverty and therefore constitute a section of our population with grave sociological problems.

One of these problems is the shortage of adequate and economic housing and this is a matter which must be the direct and constant concern of the hon. the Minister and the department. I am aware that progress is being made in the provision of more accommodation for the Indian community, and I do not in any way discount the achievements of the authorities in the creation of Indian townships, such as Phoenix and other townships in Natal and elsewhere. I believe too that the involvement of the private sector, particularly of building societies, in assisting to meet the housing needs of the Indian community is a very encouraging feature and is to be welcomed.

The progress which has been made must of course be seen against the tremendous backlog which has to be met, and it must also be seen against the background of the effect of the operation of the Group Areas Act, which has in so many instances involved the unnecessary removal of people from existing homes and has therefore created an artificial backlog in the housing position. In Durban alone, according to the city council’s figure, there is a shortage. There is a waiting list of some 25 000 people. People who applied for homes ten years ago are only now being given consideration for the provision of homes. It is a considerable problem. The figures of the hon. the Minister, allow me to say, always seem to differ from the figures of the Durban city council. I should say that the Durban city council’s figures, being those of an authority which is involved on the spot on a day-to-day basis, are accurate figures. The problem of housing for the Indian community is also of course made much more acute because of the severe socio-economic circumstances of this community.

The question of housing for the Indian community is really a twofold problem, because it is not merely a question of providing adequate housing for the community. It is also a question of providing housing which they can afford to pay for and services, such as transport and power, which they can afford, having regard to their situation in relation to their proximity to work and having regard also to the other disabilities under which they suffer.

I should like to refer in particular to the example of the new Phoenix housing scheme, just north of Durban. Here we have a comparatively new Indian township of considerable proportions which certainly provides much needed accommodation to thousands of Indian families, but where the levels of income of many of the occupiers of the dwellings leave them so small a margin after paying their rental and other basic expenses that there is no cushion left for them to meet any increase in basic charges and basic expenses.

The hon. the Minister will be aware that there is at present a threatening increase in rentals of up to 15%, which is causing great concern and consternation amongst the people concerned. Other communities may be in a better position to survive this sort of increase, but again, because of the special conditions which obtain in regard to the Indian community, such an increase cannot easily be absorbed—in many cases it cannot be absorbed at all—by the people concerned.

The hon. the Minister will also be aware of the incident that took place last week, when more than 100 wives and mothers of people living in Phoenix marched into the Durban city council to protest against the proposed increases. I understand the hon. the Minister has refused to receive a delegation of the people concerned. According to Press reports these people are in a situation in which they have to eke out an existence on as little as R5 a month, after their rent has been paid, and they now face an increase in their rentals of up to 15%.

The Phoenix Rent Action Committee has indicated that if the rent increase becomes a reality, they believe that some 70% to 80% of the people in the township will eventually be forced to leave and will therefore return to a squatter existence because they cannot pay a greater rental. A number of instances have been cited of the sort of financial situation of some of the people concerned. One instance cited is that of a man who was earning R149 a month last year.

His rent was R36 a month. During the year his salary went up by R5, and his rent then went up by R17 a month. These are the sort of people with whom we are dealing. We therefore have a situation that whereas housing has been provided, the economic circumstances of the people concerned are such that they cannot afford to pay the rents, and of course their situation is made even worse because of the siting of their housing far away from their places of employment. This of course is in most cases a direct result of Government policy.

I want to quote another example in relation to the Phoenix situation, an example which was quoted in the Press. It concerns an Indian family consisting of a mother, father and five children. The report says—

This is the sort of situation which exists and which must be the concern of the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs relating to the socio-economic circumstances of the Indian community. This situation is symbolic, in many ways, of the difficulties which the Indian community experiences. Their hardships and disabilities are manifold, but the root cause can very often be found very largely in the discriminatory laws which operate against them in this country. The root causes can be found in the lack of adequate training facilities, of job opportunities, of inequal educational standards and of course also in the operation of the Group Areas Act and its effects on the community, not only in the initial uprooting of people, but also in their re-settlement in areas very often far away from their places of work.

In this regard the hon. the Minister’s commented earlier this year that—

And also that the Group Areas Act was—

This was one of the classical misstatements of the year.

Friendly nationalism.

Who does the hon. the Minister think he is fooling?

Himself.

The hon. the Minister is certainly not fooling the Indian community, because the reaction of the Indian community to the quoted statement came from a variety of quarters and points of view. Leading members of the Indian community responded very rigorously and forcefully against the hon. the Minister’s description of the Group Areas Act and his comments on the reception it was having in the Indian community. I want to quote some of their comments. Firstly—

Secondly, another leader said—

Another statement reads—

So much for the Indian community regarding the Group Areas Act as its greatest friend and thanking the Government for it.

You are talking about a minority.

It is a decision of the Indian Council that the Act should be abolished.

I want to come now to the question of Indian education, a matter which continues to deserve the full attention of the hon. the Minister. Again, as in the case of housing, I do not say that there has not been an improvement in the scale of education or in the facilities, but the hon. the Minister must be aware that there is still bitter resentment over the inequalities which exist as opposed to White education. The hon. the Minister should also be warned of the significance of the solidarity shown in recent weeks by Indian pupils and educationists with the Coloured community in regard to the whole question of the inequality of education and also in regard to their desire to see education placed under one Government authority in South Africa. The system needs to be thoroughly reviewed. At present there are complaints about a number of matters affecting Indian education.

Firstly, at Indian schools there are classes of 40 and more up to Std. 7. This, as any educationist would agree, is an unhealthy situation. Secondly, I am told that 29 of the 51 secondary schools in Natal are carrying more than the maximum number of pupils for which they were built. Thirdly, there is a desperate shortage of playing fields at most of the schools, and comparison with White schools in this regard is totally odious. Fourthly, there is a desperate shortage of library books. Fifthly, the whole question of facilities for teacher training desperately needs to be looked at.

There are no less than 1 641 teachers, in Indian schools in the province of Natal, who have lesser qualifications than teachers’ training college certificates, and this out of a total teaching population of 8 335. Sixthly, conditions of service are different to those that obtain in the case of White teachers, and there is still a significant difference in salary scales between White and Indian teachers. The new scales are interesting. They reflect an improvement and, in most cases, they also reflect a narrowing in the gap between the salaries of White and Indian teachers, but nonetheless the gap is still considerable, and this is bitterly resented by the Indian teaching profession.

Let me quote some of the figures to indicate the situation at various levels where the gap is evident. For example, in the highest category, the 8th category, which has seven grades, for the most part the gap has only been slightly narrowed, and in at least one instance the gap has increased. For example, at the commencement of category A, i.e. the top category, a White teacher starts with a salary of R10 350 per annum, whereas an Indian teacher in that grade starts with a salary of only R8 550 per annum, which is a difference of R1 750 in that particular category. The difference continues throughout the period of service in that particular category.

In the case of category E, under the same post level, the difference in salary between White and Indian teachers is R1 500, whereas before the reviewed salary scales the difference was only R1 200. So in fact, in that particular grade, there has been an increase in the gap between the salaries of White and Indian teachers. I find this an anomoly which the hon. the Minister might be able to explain. The difference continues in other grades. For example, in the starting grade an Indian teacher starts at a salary of R2 220 per annum, his White counterpart starts at a salary of R2 790 per annum, a difference of R570. So one could go on looking through the salary scales. This is a matter causing great concern in the teaching profession.

The gap becomes even greater when one adds the service bonus. When that is included, one can see the whole situation in an even worse light. Let us consider the differences after having added the service bonus. In the first year, in this category, the difference in salary between White and Indian teachers is R1 950. This goes on, through to the second, third and fourth years. So although salary figures seem to indicate a difference of only R1 750, if one considers the period needed for a person to advance in the particular grade, over the four year period the Indian teacher lags behind the White teacher to the tune of over R7 000. This is a matter which is, as I have said, causing very considerable concern amongst members of the Indian community.

It is, of course, not only the teaching profession that suffers. The hon. the Minister, I do acknowledge, is responsible for Indian education, but the disparity continues through other sections involving the employment of members of the Indian community. These are also matters that deserve the attention of the hon. the Minister. This is carried through in many other professions. Let us take, for example, the nursing profession. Here again there is a considerable difference between the wages received by White nurses and those received by Indian nurses. For example, a chief matron, if she is White, will receive a starting salary of R10 650, whilst if she is Indian she will receive a starting salary of R8 850, a difference of R1 800. This applies right down the scale in the nursing profession. There is still a considerable disparity between the wages paid to Whites and Indians. These are matters that the hon. the Minister should be giving attention to, because these differences are totally unwarranted and totally discriminatory.

There are a number of other matters I should like to deal with, but unfortunately at this stage I do not have the time. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that, if he and his department want to serve the Indian community, they must get rid of discrimination in every field, they must see that equal opportunities are provided for the Indian community and they must help the Indian community to fight the conditions of abject poverty in which so many of that community find themselves. If the hon. the Minister and his department are able to do that, they will be achieving something for the Indian community. The hon. the Minister must realize that these are matters that deserve urgent and prompt attention by his department. They are matters that cut very deeply into the lives of the members of the Indian community and action is required in respect of them.

Mr. Chairman, for a few years now I have had the opportunity in this House of replying to the charges made by the hon. member for Musgrave and his attacks on this side of the House concerning the matters affecting the Indian community in Southern Africa. It remains very difficult for me to understand what the hon. member’s attack is based on and what his solutions are to the problems which normally exist in any community. The hon. member began by discussing the poverty in the Indian community, housing and education. Now it is conspicuous that while the hon. member began by saying that there is terrible poverty, there is a great housing shortage and education is in a dismal plight, he says in the next breath that much has been done in respect of the poverty, the housing and the education.

One’s dilemma with the hon. members of the Opposition is that they never allow us to make analyses comparing the Indian community in Southern Africa with those elsewhere in the world. They say it must be in the Southern African context. The hon. members themselves make comparisons in the Southern African context, but I think these are absolutely unscientific comparisons which they make, because one cannot ask why everything is not equal for all the people of South Africa at the moment. There are various reasons for this. If one does not know the various reasons and the background, one cannot understand these problems. One matter to which the hon. member did not refer was that the Government has done what it could with the means available to it.

The hon. member quoted quite a number of people without really mentioning their names. I happen to have an article with me which was written three years ago by Mr. J. A. Carrim, and I want to quote from it. I want to say that it does not get us very far in this debate to quote certain persons as it suits us. When I quote Mr. Carrim, I am not only doing so because it suits me in respect of the standpoint I want to adopt. Mr. Carrim is much more realistic in his approach than the hon. members of the Opposition. He compares the Indian in South Africa with the Afrikaner and says, among other things—

Now I want to come to the hon. member’s political solution for Southern Africa, which naturally affects social solutions as well. Mr. Carrim goes on to say—

Incidentally, I think most hon. members of the PFP are foreigners—

The hon. members of the PFP are foreigners in this country, and therefore, as Mr. Carrim says, they have not even begun to analyse the problems of South Africa. Mr. Carrim goes on to say—

In other words, one finds here an understanding of the Southern African situation. I want to tell the hon. member for Musgrave that we live with clichés in this world of ours. In recent years, those hon. members have built up a cliché of apartheid. They have made a monster of it by pretending that it wants to make laws to regulate everything in the world. Hon. members know that basically, apartheid, separate development, means only the recognition of diversity. How can one recognize, regulate, control and organize diversity if one does not accept the basic concept that communities at least want to live together? The hon. member read quotations to prove that the people are so bitterly opposed to the Group Areas Act. However, if one sits down quietly with these people—and I have often done this—and one talks to them, they will say that one cannot help grouping one’s own people together.

Are you opposed to it?

I have absolutely no objection to the statutory enactment of certain measures which bring about separation for the sake of good order. I have so often said that if one wants to compare the position of the Indian in Southern Africa, and in the rest of Africa, with their position in India itself, then I believe there is not a single Indian in South Africa who would really want to emigrate to India.

They are all South Africans. They were born here.

As for me, a descendant of the Hollanders, if I had been leading such a wretched life in Southern Africa I would have returned long ago to Oud Beierand in Holland where I came from. I would have returned long ago. But no Indians are emigrating from Southern Africa. Indians will indeed emigrate from Southern Africa if the country is taken over by a government of extreme leftists with a Third World policy in Southern Africa. Then there will be emigration from Southern Africa. I can understand that every leader in the Indian community would like to plead for the improvement of their circumstances, and of course I want to help them in that. However, when one initiates that process, there are certain basic rules which have to be taken into consideration.

The hon. member for Musgrave spoke about housing. I should like to read from the report of the Department of Indian Affairs—I do not know how thoroughly the hon. member studied the report—under the heading “Housing, Natal, Durban,” where it says the following (page 18)—

It is absolutely amazing that one should simply blame the Government for all the problems that exist within an ethnic community in South Africa. I think it is true of all facets of the lives of every people in South Africa that everyone of those peoples, and every individual in those peoples, should after all examine his own community as well, what he is able to generate in his own community, not only in respect of money, but also in respect of the talents which that people has for serving its own community. There are certain problems with which the world will be increasingly faced. There is the question of population growth and the question of housing, which goes with it, and I think the time has come for my people as well as all the other peoples in this country to examine these basic problems, which are not peculiar to Southern Africa, but occur in all other communities as well. I want to repeat here today that to say that all the problems of the Indians in Southern Africa are to be blamed on the fact that we have a policy of separate development is untrue and illogical. If the hon. member does not accept this diversity and if he wants a society in South Africa in which the majority will rule, the first ones to emigrate from South Africa will be the Indians, even before the Van der Merwes leave South Africa.

The hon. member also discussed education. Some of my colleagues will react to this at a later stage. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the first place, I wish to associate myself with what the previous speaker said and pay tribute to the Secretary and the department for the excellent report, a report that is so characteristic of this department and which we receive year after year. I also wish to convey my congratulations to Mr. Blignaut on his promotion. We wish him everything of the best for the future and we feel sure that he is going to make his mark to an even greater extent in future. If there was one particular aspect of the report that struck me, apart from the immense progress in just about every field such as housing, education, etc., it is that the process of industrialization and the concomitant urbanization has had the effect that the Indian community has become more and more complex and that this in turn leads to increasing problems of adjustment, in the family context as well as in the community as such. The result of greater affluence has, of necessity, also the effect that the Indian community has to make greater sacrifices in this regard. The peace and quiet of the family and of the community are, relatively speaking, also vanishing for the Indian community. This leads to competition, tension and disintegration of family life, and consequently increasing social problems. In the Indian community, too, individual action rather than collective action has become the order of the day. The fact that the Indian woman is also employed outside the family context, has the effect that the stabilizing influence which she has had in the family up to now, is being withdrawn. The lack of proper supervision and discipline at home, coupled with greater prosperity, has led to an increase in social problems in the Indian community, the most important of which is, in the first place, the ungovernableness of children and in the second place, the abuse of dagga and other drugs. On page 44 of the report this view is also expressed, and I quote—

A leading Coloured speaker, Mr. Lofty Adams, recently referred to the Western culture in lighter vein as a “Coca-Cola” culture. There is no doubt on my part that people of culture in the West will readily admit that the “Coca-Cola” culture has indeed taken its toll in the West. The Indian community, and the Indian family in particular, has up to now been able, owing to its particular set-up and set of values, to escape the negative elements of the “erosion of the Western culture”. It is very obvious at this point of time, however, that that is something of the past. This has of course resulted in an increase in the social problems and in cases which the welfare division of the department has had to attend to. In respect of the Indian community the department has, during the past year, concentrated on the prevention, control and rooting out of social evils. The department has done what was possible in this regard, but they have been handicapped by the acute shortage of trained welfare workers.

In the time at my disposal it is impossible to supply the necessary statistics with regard to the work load and the needs in every field. I can only refer to these matters in general terms. Hon. members can form some idea of the shortage from the fact that a single social worker from Durban also has to visit Phoenix, and from the fact that there is no social worker stationed in Pietermaritzburg. A one-man office serves Port Elizabeth and Uitenhage, and there is no office in East London. It is indicated in the department’s report that the increase in the case load for the period under review amounts to 21%. The average case per load per social worker as at 30 June 1979 was 103 cases. This is considerably higher than the recognized norm of 60 cases per social worker. The department is doing everything in its power to provide the necessary services to the Indian community in the field of social welfare, as is evident from the fact that during the period under review, an amount of approximately R29 million was paid out in social pensions to 47 600 beneficiaries. I wish to pay tribute to all the officials of the department for the sterling service they are rendering the Indian community. An interesting fact in this regard is that 1 029, or 86%, of the 1 195 posts in the department are already occupied by Indians. I also wish to pay tribute to the many private persons and private organizations who, through their work and their contributions, are serving the Indian community by providing and extending social welfare services on a private basis. The State and the department also encourage this initiative by means of a scheme which, among other things, includes the subsidizing of salaries of trained welfare personnel as well as the subsidizing of the aged, children’s homes, etc.

†Mr. Chairman, I would also like to mention a new scheme which has been established with effect from 1 April 1980, namely a subsidy scheme in respect of protective workshops and hostels for mentally and physically handicapped Indian persons. I wish to refer to a circular in this regard which reads as follows—

I wish to conclude by paying tribute to the hon. the Minister, the Secretary of the department and his staff for all the positive work done by them.

Mr. Chairman, over the years we have seen tremendous changes in respect of our Indian population, particularly in the socio-economic field. I think that many of these changes are due in no small measure to the efforts of the late Dr. A. M. Moolla and I would like to make use of this first opportunity during which Indian affairs can be discussed in the House since his passing, to record our sorrow at his loss to the Indian community. He was a man I got to know well. He was a tenacious and kindly person, one who stuck to his guns. He had his opinions and he always tried to do the best he possibly could for the members of the South African Indian population.

The Indian community has developed and are accepted today as an integral part of the South African society. They identify themselves completely as South Africans, and furthermore I believe that we owe them a tremendous debt. I also believe that we, particularly those of us who come from Natal, must always be conscious of the part the Indians have played in the history and development of our province and of our country. I hope that the year 1980 will indeed see a new deal for this worthy community. I sincerely hope that the new South African Indian Council will become a fully elected body in the very near future, preferably within the passage of this year. We know that the existing council will have to be phased out early in November of this year, and it is our sincere hope that we will see a newly elected council come into being shortly thereafter. I hope, too, that the new constitutional proposals and the developments that will flow from them, will enable the South African Indian to participate in greater measure in the process of government and in decision-making in our country. I also hope that the future will be one of peace and of prosperity for these worthy citizens. The Indian is in essence a peace-loving person and he deserves prosperity because of his business acumen and for many other reasons. He is a diligent, hardworking citizen.

These are some of my hopes for the Indian people. I am sure we would all like to see that at least these are realized. I believe and I know that we in the NRP will constantly strive towards this end.

I now want to turn to an issue which is applicable to all urban areas in South Africa. This is one I have raised with the hon. the Minister repeatedly over the last three years. I am sorry that I have to raise it again, but we still do not have the answers. This year, in order to emphasize my argument, I must introduce a parochial note, but it is one that serves to show very clearly what we are aiming at. It is the best illustration I could think of. I want to discuss the vast changing central business district—the CBD—of the city of Durban and the future it could hold for the Indian trader; in fact, for all businessmen.

The old railway station with its workshops and all the ancillary railway works are being moved out of the centre of Durban and this vast area of what may be termed as the city centre—because it is indeed situated in the area towards which the city centre is gravitating—is going to be thrown open for commercial development. The vast tract of land enclosed by Pine Street, Old Fort Road, Soldiers’ Way and a part of the beach front can, and we hope will, become the hub of the new CBD of the city. Obviously the city planners must plan within the framework of central Government legislation. They have to work within the framework laid down by Parliament. This could prove to be a tragedy because they may find themselves planning for tomorrow on the basis of and bound by the legislation on the Statute Book of today.

The hon. the Minister has listened sympathetically to my pleas to open the central business district to members of all races. I sincerely believe that he has given answers to the best of his ability. He has indicated that decisions in this connection involve other ministries. However, surely by now he must be able to give us more information. The Durban Chamber of Commerce came out strongly in favour of the relaxation of legal restrictions on mixed trading. In fact, it gave evidence before the Riekert Commission, and this Commission itself also accepted and expanded on this point of view. However, the Group Areas Act of 1966 remains, and planning is hampered by this Act. There is an over-provision of shopping and office space in what is currently termed as the White CBD of Durban, and, conversely, I think we can all accept that there is a tremendous shortage of shopping and office space in the Indian commercial area in and around Grey Street in Durban. These two areas are cheek by jowl with each other. They abut each other. The situation is such that all these factors must be taken into consideration in planning for the future. I believe the local authority, the city council of Durban, would be far better able to embark on such planning and would be able to plan far more realistically once it knows the Government’s intention in respect of central business districts.

A plan for a purely White commercial centre will of course be completely different from a plan for a completely Asiatic, or a completely Black centre. Also, a plan for a mixed or open central business district, however, will be something quite apart again. It will involve certain needs, specific needs, about which the planners will have to know now. The planners will have to know the intentions. They will have to know that they can cater for those needs and that they can look towards what we consider to be the ideal. Is this not what it is all about? Are we not talking about this great future in which we are all going to be together in one community, in which we will accept that we are living in one community, in which we accept that our metropolitan areas, our city centres, are going to be open to all? This has been accepted in principle.

What about the suburbs?

You know how we feel about that, my friend. We believe that the central business districts of our cities have to be opened to all. We believe that it is not only morally, but also commercially, in the best interests of the future of all our cities that central business districts be opened up to traders of all races. I ask the hon. the Minister and all other hon. Ministers concerned to come forward with a final decision in this regard so that we can embark upon proper planning.

I said I was being parochial. The Johannesburg Central Business District Association, however, says in its principles that the Johannesburg central business district is to be confirmed and developed further as the office of commercial “down town” for the whole metropolitan area, which necessarily implies that its facilities must increasingly become available to all races.

You are now talking about community development.

Mr. Chairman, I am specifically concerned with the needs of the Indians. I am talking on behalf of the Indians in this country. I have brought this up over the years, and I will continue to bring it up because I believe this is something that has to be looked at.

I agree with what the hon. member for Musgrave said, that schools are crowded and that there is a shortage of school accommodation. I do believe, however, that this year we have seen a dramatic move towards the alleviation of this problem. It is gratifying to see that there is an amount of something like R22 million being spent this year by the Department of Public Works on Indian schools. I should particularly like to refer to the provision of school accommodation in Phoenix township. We discussed this last year, and I think it is worthy of note to mention that there are something like 10 schools in the course of construction in the Phoenix township at this moment.

I sincerely hope that we will continue with the development of schools at this rate, throughout the province of Natal, not only in the Phoenix township, and in other provinces as well. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the Indian community of South Africa recently suffered a very great loss with the death of Dr. Moolla. He was a personal friend of mine, someone for whom I had the highest esteem. I had the privilege of travelling abroad with Dr. Moolla, where, together with other people, we put South Africa’s case. He did this in an excellent way. He was not only a leader of his people, but he behaved like a true patriot. He also conducted himself as befits a good ambassador, and as a person who always put South Africa’s case correctly. Therefore I should like to pay tribute to this deceased Indian leader.

The hon. member for Umhlanga requested that the Indian Council should be an elected body. I have no fault to find with that request of his. I think this matter has been debated here earlier this year, and that the present situation is in fact a temporary arrangement.

†The hon. member also referred to certain expectations regarding the constitutional proposals, and I wish to devote some of my time to this particular matter. The hon. member also put certain requests regarding the development of the central business district of Durban, on which I do not wish to comment in full at this stage. I think, however, that a request of this nature would be considered on merit. In any case I am quite sure that a matter of this nature would be best discussed under another Vote. I think it would be more appropriate to discuss this matter under the Community Development Vote.

*I have been participating in debates on the Indian Affairs Vote for about 10 years. I have often spoken about the constitutional development of the Indian population and I have put forward the standpoint that their constitutional development should take place on an evolutionary basis. I have said on several occasions that I see their constitutional development within the group context as well.

The appointment of the Constitutional Commission gave a very great impetus to the constitutional evolution of the Indians as well. When we consider this evolutionary process, we have to keep in mind some basic requirements. In terms of the NP philosophy, the ideal for the development of any particular nation to full national maturity is that the maximum degree of homogeneity should be achieved in the composition of that nation, and for this, geographic ties with a specific contiguous territory is an essential prerequisite. A further requirement is economic viability, which is achieved through the eagerness of the nation to put the natural resources of such an area to the best possible use. When all these requirements are met, one can say that one may find the ideal solution to our political problems.

As far as the Indian population is concerned, such an ideal solution does not exist, because these requirements cannot all be met. Like the Whites and the Coloured people, the Indian community also consists of a variety of groups, because of their caste and religious differences, but just like the Whites and Coloureds, they do form an identifiable group. Apart from the existing group areas, there is no practical, contiguous homeland for the Indians, and the population is scattered all over the country. Of course, the economic viability of the Indian areas must be such that they can offer the Indian people a future, and this is also causing a problem.

In spite of the problems to which I have just referred, the solution to the problem of the constitutional evolution of the Indians remains the recognition of group identity and the accompanying maximum division of power. In our search for an ideal, we have already decided that the present Westminster system does not offer a solution, especially since this system does not enable one to protect the interests of minority groups.

Although we want to accept the principle that we would like to draw up a constitution with people and not for them, and that this should take place through a process of evolution, change can only be brought about legally and constitutionally in South Africa if the White people co-operate and the consent of Parliament is obtained. Minority groups such as the Indian population should bear these facts in mind at all times if peaceful change is to take place, for any other method is bound to lead to revolution. It is also necessary to spell out to the Indian population in this debate what factors are not conducive to any constitutional change which they may desire.

The first factor is the kind of behaviour by ethnic groups which makes the Whites feel threatened, such as alliances by groups with other unassimiliable groups, such as we have recently seen; a threatening attitude adopted by certain groups; the rejection or abuse of existing constitutional machinery which has already been created in the evolutionary constitutional process …

Getting scared, are you?

… irresponsible behaviour, such as emotional outbursts in television interviews …

Like that of the hon. member for Bryanston today.

… and the refusal to give evidence before the Constitutional Commission. The responsible use of constitutional means on behalf of the ethnic group concerned is bound to lead to greater responsibility. Fortunately, the Indian population has not so far used this machinery which has been created for it in an irresponsible way. However, I find it regrettable that two members of the Indian Council resigned yesterday, especially in the light of the fact that we are on the eve of new constitutional steps which may hold great advantages for the Indian population.

I foresee a new era for the Indian population group when this new dispensation is put into operation on the basis that discussions can take place within a formal council which will be able to deliberate about the future with responsibility, without political emotion and under the protection of established traditions. This will also ensure that the stability of the established body politic will be preserved, and this will prevent us from lapsing into uncertain experimentation in connection with new constitutional dispensations.

Since this opportunity is now being created, I should like to appeal to the recognized leaders of the Indian community to give their whole-hearted co-operation, because it can only promote the interests, prosperity and contentment of all population groups.

Why should the accent be placed on group identity? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, before I come to the subject I want to deal with, you will allow me to thank a few persons. I see the Director of Indian Education, Mr. Gawie Krog, sitting in the officials’ bench this afternoon. I should like to convey the thanks and appreciation of this House to him for the sometimes thankless task he is performing with so much enthusiasm and dedication. We wish him strength and God’s blessing for the future. We also want to express our thanks and appreciation to Messrs. Brummer and Blignaut and the staff that assists them for their kind assistance at all times and the dedication with which they perform their task. There is another small matter, but the hon. the Minister will deal with that. I shall not elaborate on this any further.

Education is one of the major subjects of discussion in our country today, so much so that the hon. the Prime Minister has made it quite clear that he will personally see to it that a thorough-going investigation is ordered into the educational situation. This includes Indian education. However, I want to leave the matter at that, knowing that it will be done, because the hon. the Prime Minister is a man who makes sure that effect is given to the proposals and statements he makes. We thank him very much for that.

Indian education covers a very wide field. For example, there are 212 000 Indian children at school today, approximately 27% of the Indian population. However, I want to concentrate mainly on one aspect of the subject, namely the industrial school at Newcastle. This is something of which not all our people are aware. The Government is always being accused of doing too little. Only this afternoon it has been said that there has in fact been an improvement in education. It is said that little or nothing is being done for the other population groups, or it is said that it is being done 30 years too late, as the hon. member for Bryanston said in this House a few days ago. The industrial school for Indians at Newcastle is a monument to the Government. It is proof of what has already been done for the children of the Indian population group. Remember, we are talking about an industrial school. Children who would otherwise have been thrown to the wolves, and who in the past were in fact thrown to the wolves, are being admitted to this school, where several trades are taught. There are certain complaints we are always having to listen to, but at Newcastle, provision has been made for classroom and office accommodation and several speciality classrooms, in accordance with the modern approach to education. There are a library and a laboratory, so to the academic work is being encouraged. Is this not aimed at uplifting people? I am only asking. However, provision has also been made for recreation. There is a big sports complex with a swimming pool, tennis courts, an athletics track, a soccer field and a cricket pitch. We could go on mentioning these things to show what has already been done for those children. In this year’s budget, R22 million is being set aside.

Some of my colleagues will deal with education in general, but I want to concentrate mainly on the so-called grievances which lead to boycotts, window-breaking, assaults on teachers, etc. The grievances that are mentioned are largely the same as the ones that were mentioned before the Soweto riots. I should like to mention some of them. In the first place, a shortage of textbooks, a shortage of libraries …

[Inaudible.]

Give me a chance. Other factors that have been mentioned are the poor quality of books in libraries, a shortage of school buildings and halls and a shortage of classrooms. Now there is the following aspect of the matter. They refuse to go to school in prefabricated buildings. This is one of the 14 grievances that are given. Does all this give pupils and students the right to go on boycott and to become destructive? Do these people not realize that they are harming themselves? The hon. the Minister has promised that their grievances will be examined, and that it will be done soon, but this is not accepted. They make a demand, and what is their demand? It is that the hon. the Minister must resign …

Hear, hear!

… before they will stop their boycotts, their window breaking activities. Then we hear “Hear, hear” from the other side. That shows us that the same sound is coming from the Opposition side.

We also want the Minister to resign.

I want to quote from The Argus of 7 May 1980. The report appeared under the heading “Pupils call on Steyn to resign”. I quote—

I am listening to hear whether there will be another “Hear, hear” from the other side—

The most interesting part of this report is the following—and I want the official Opposition to listen to it, and then to say “Hear, hear” again—

These are the words that are used—

Now I do not hear any “hear, hear” from the other side.

You will not get it either.

No, we shall not hear it. Let me make it very clear: The Minister will not resign.

Why not?

He will not resign and he will continue his good work. These sounds—I have said it before and I want to repeat it—which come from the pupils have often been heard in this House from the side of the official Opposition. Now I want to ask: These are the same sounds, are they not? Are they not being transmitted in some way or other? I am just asking.

After all, the problems that have been identified exist in White schools as well. They do not exist in Indian schools only. They exist in White schools as well. However, our children do not refuse to go to school in prefabricated classrooms. Many of our schools, even in Natal, do not have halls. Some schools have no sports facilities. I could go on in this way. My submission is that this is no reason for boycotts and vandalism. There are many better methods that can be used. Through negotiation and discussion, all problems can be solved. This has in fact been offered them. However, they reject it. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I shall not deal with what the hon. member for Umhlatuzana had to say, because I want to deal directly with the hon. the Minister on a matter I have long felt needed to be said in the House. When the hon. the Prime Minister decided to rationalize the departments and the Public Service, he in fact made a number of very significant mistakes. One of the more important mistakes was with regard to the posts held by the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs, because he once more gave that Minister the position of Minister of Community Development as well. Here we have an unfortunate anomaly in the departments of the Government, because in this House and in the Government of South Africa the Indian community have no voice, have no say and have no representation. They have to depend on the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs to look after their interests. They have to depend on him to represent their interests vis-à-vis the Government of South Africa. And what do they find?

They find that, in a very important aspect of their interests, namely the application of the Group Areas Act, which is the single most devastating Act of this Government in terms of the destruction of the happiness and the rights of the Indian people, the single most important Act as far as the disruption of their lives is concerned and as far as the demolition of their communities is concerned, when they come to the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs to act as their advocate, they are at the very same time faced by their executioner in the person of the Minister of Community Development. That is the man who has the power to destroy their interests and to say “no” to any request, no matter how reasonable and sensible it is. He is the man who has the power to destroy their family life, to destroy their community life and to destroy any possibility of improvement in their particular situation. It is shocking and shameful that up to 1978 1 965 Indian traders were moved in South Africa, most of them against their will and against their interests. Of course, it is said that Whites were moved too. But in that time only 21 White traders were moved. Now we have the position that the Government has seen the fight and they have decided that out of the something like 3 300 Indian disqualified traders, only something like 421 are still to be moved. This is also very unfortunate. They say it has something to do with slums and with steps which are already under way. But at an expenditure of R24 million 421 Indian traders are still to be moved in South Africa. I believe that it is most unfortunate that in this day and age, when the Government is attempting to create the impression that they want to move away from harsh race discrimination, the Group Areas Act is still on the Statute Book and that the Government is still applying that Act. What has happened with regard to the idea that section-19 areas would be established? Why is there such a delay? Why are there not more section-19 areas where Indian traders can trade in so-called White areas? Why is there such a tremendous delay and such a tremendous reluctance to establish those areas? What has happened to the recommendations of the Riekert Commission? Why is it taking so much time? The Riekert Commission recommended that the Group Areas Act be amended so that areas can be provided in White towns and cities where Coloureds and Indians can trade and run professional practices. Why is it that that has not been attended to, why have we not had amendments of that nature to the Act? The Riekert Commission also appealed to the Government not to interfere in any way with local authorities when they apply for the establishment of such areas. Why has that not been acceded to? There is a difference. The Government believes that they ought to retain the Act and then govern by exception and by permit. By retaining the Act, they can say to their own right-wing supporters that they have not changed the law. At the same time they can say to the left-wing, the outside world and the other race groups, that they will in fact make changes, but they make those changes by permit and by exception. However, that is unacceptable because the very basis of the injustice remains and we shall not achieve a better position for our people or for our country until this Act and others are wiped from the Statute Book.

I now want to give only one example very briefly—and there must be thousands of examples—of the effect of the Group Areas Act on the lives of some people in this country. An Indian citizen—and the hon. the Minister knows exactly what I am talking about because I approached him in this connection—applied for the right to open a business in a White business area.

Why?

Because he wanted to open a business there. It was because he wanted to improve his way of living and because he wanted to make a bigger contribution to the future of his family. But after complying with all the requirements and filling in all the forms, he received a letter from the relevant department saying that he must go and get a letter from each White occupant in the building, stating that they have no objection against Indian occupation. What a downright humiliation that a man who is a South African citizen has simply because he happens to be Black, to obtain a letter from the Whites in that building stating that they have no objection to his operating in that building. Yet he obtained that letter. But then he received another letter from the department concerned asking him to state what hardship would be caused should the application be refused. Can hon. members believe it? In this so-called civilized society, under this so-called enlightened Government, under this so-called democratic Government, a Government that talks about free enterprise but does not practise it, a man has to state what hardship would be caused if he is not allowed to operate a business in a decent and proper way. He simply replied: “I have a wife and two children. I have reached the maximum income that I can in my position of employment. I want to improve myself. I want to make more money. I want to do something for my family.” Upon which this hon. Minister, in obvious enjoyment of the power that he wields to refuse such a simple right to ordinary individuals, said “No”. That man then received a letter stating that he could not be allowed to do so. And yet we must tell the world—the world, the Blacks, the Coloureds and the Indians must believe—that this Government is moving away from discrimination. I say that it is a fraud and a farce and that it is not so. I should like to tell the hon. the Minister that he was the one who told us at meeting after meeting in the party he previously belonged to, that the policies of this Government were wicked and evil.

Do you still believe it?

Yes, I still believe it. Why does the hon. the Minister not believe it any more?

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

Mr. Chairman, I do not have the time to reply to the questions of that hon. member.

†That hon. Minister told us that the policies of this Government were wicked and evil. If they were wicked and evil then, why does he now impose those same policies on the defenceless and voiceless people of this country whom he is supposed to look after? The Indian people agreed with him when he said at a time that this was the worst Government with which God had ever cursed any country. I want to tell that hon. Minister to wake up. You are sleeping on the threshold of a revolution which will primarily be caused by the shortsighted and the vicious discriminatory measures and laws of this Government. You have the opportunity, if you so wish …

Order! The hon. member must address the Chair and not the hon. the Minister directly.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister knows what I am talking about.

†I still have only one or two minutes at my disposal and I therefore want to refer very briefly to what I consider to be one of the most blatant examples of political dishonesty that has appeared in this country. That is an advertisement of the NRP which appeared in The Natal Mercury of 3 May 1980, where they purported to republish an article written by Bruce Cameron, a political reporter of The Daily News. They leave out the part of the report that says that the NRP was practically wiped out in the rest of the country. They state in their advertisement—

Mr. Bruce Cameron writes—

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not propose to react directly to the speeches by the hon. members for Musgrave and Bryanston beyond saying that, having listened to them, one cannot escape the conclusion, as one so often cannot escape it, that the hon. official Opposition in this House dismally fails in its role of a loyal Opposition in the Westminster system which we still have, for the role of a loyal Opposition in that system … [Interjections.] I am not questioning their loyalty.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon. member allowed to say that the official Opposition is failing in its duty as a loyal Opposition?

Order! Could the hon. member for Benoni just repeat what he said?

I said “of a loyal Opposition in the Westminster system”, because the role a loyal Opposition …

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order …

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw it in order to save time. [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, I withdraw it unconditionally.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: May I ask you to direct the hon. member to withdraw unconditionally?

Order! The hon. member has withdrawn what he said. The hon. member for Benoni may proceed.

All I want to say is that the role of an Opposition party in any parliamentary system should not only be a negatively critical one; they should also make a positive contribution to the solution of problems. Therefore I cannot see that what I have said is unparliamentary or that in saying it, I was questioning the hon. member’s loyalty.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: I believe the hon. member is now questioning your ruling in terms of which he had to withdraw his remarks. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Benoni did not repeat what he had said. He is arguing a case. I am prepared to hear him out.

Mr. Chairman, be that as it may. I want to say that hon. members can take a leaf out of the book of the late Dr. Moolla, to whom I would also like to pay tribute. Unlike them, Dr. Moolla made a positive contribution towards the solutions of our problems.

You just create problems.

He certainly would not have given moral support to the instigators of the schools boycott in the Indian community as certain of those hon. members did just now by way of their interjections. I maintain that the schools boycott in the Indian community is totally gratuitous and unnecessary. It is not a spontaneous action, but is certainly an instigated one. I have the biggest Indian community on the East Rand in my constituency.

Do they vote for you?

This community is served by five schools: one high school, one intermediary school and three primary schools. There is adequate school accommodation there, and Indian community leaders confirm this. There is no platoon system in Benoni. The William Hill’s High School is a modern, spacious and well-equipped school. There are no problems with school-books there. The intermediary school has recently been renovated, and yet at the instigation of people whose identity I am aware of, the scholars in this well-served community started boycotting the school six days ago. The member of the Indian Council for Benoni, Mr. S. Abram-Mayet, was called out to address them. He tells me that for tactical reasons he sympathized with their cause, but told them that they had made their point. He guaranteed them an interview with the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs, an interview with a delegation to be appointed by them. He told them that having made their point, they should return to school. His suggestion was enthusiastically received. Incidentally, Mr. Mayet tells me that 90% of the boycotting pupils, including his own children, did not know what the boycott was all about and that their complaints, in the main, were frivolous. That can be seen from a document that I have here from the Parents’ Action Committee. Among the grouses is listed so-called “gutter education”, or what they term “monkey education”. Since the Indian pupils write the same matric examinations as White pupils, since they have an 80% pass rate and since 80% of them apply for matriculation exemption, as opposed to 50% among Whites, I fail to see that this is a reasonable complaint. At the same meeting there was a Dr. I. M. Cachalia, whose family has a long association with political radicalism in this country. In the time when the now banned Indian Congress was active, that family had close associations with Dr. Dadoo. Today it has close associations with Dr. Ntatho Motlana and his ilk. The two sons of the Cachalia family are at Wits University and both of them have been in trouble with the Security Police. So when Mr. Mayet made his proposals this was not good enough for Dr. Cachalia and his people. No, Sir. They did not want these pupils to go back to school and they did not want an interview with the Minister. They wanted confrontation. They then went about and organized a protest meeting of parents in the Maha Sabha Hall in Actonville. At that meeting they incited the parents to back the students and incited the students to continue to boycott. As a result of that the meeting with the Minister has been called off.

I now want to know from hon. members of the official Opposition party whether they associate themselves with this kind of behaviour and whether they think it is constructive and helpful to the Indian school-children. In Benoni there are certainly no grounds for grievances. As a matter of fact, on the whole I doubt that there are grounds for grievances. One of the arguments is that the quality of education is not sufficient. That is usually based on the fact that teachers are not adequately qualified. In South Africa there are just over 8 000 Indian teachers with professional qualifications. There are only 733 left who do not have professional qualifications, and of these a number do have technical qualifications and degrees.

In South Africa 27,15% of the total Indian population is at school. Percentage-wise this is a far better figure than the figure in respect of even the Whites of South Africa and certainly better than the figure in respect of India or any other country in the Third World. The average figure for India is 14,7%; for the rest of Africa, 9,8% and for Europe only 17,7%.

The Indian community has, apart from its schools, two teachers’ training colleges, the M. L. Sultan Technikon and the only Indian university outside the Indian sub-continent. In less than two decades the number of students at this university has increased from 114 to more than 8 000. It is one of the most beautiful and best equipped universities and certainly the most modern one in South Africa today, and it is therefore incomprehensible to me that the instigation of the boycott seems to emanate from this institution. I am not saying that everything is perfect in Indian education, but one certainly cannot make the allegation that nothing has been done or that nothing is being done. In spite of the fact that a higher percentage of Indian children than White children is at school in South Africa, the department continues unabatedly with the school-building programme, as was mentioned also by the hon. member for Umhlanga. R22 million has been earmarked for further school accommodation this year.

I think I have proven adequately that people like Dr. Cachalia and his two sons have instigated and are instigating the boycott action, which fortunately and thankfully is running out of steam because there are no real reasons for it.

That is a lot of rubbish.

How can you say he is talking rubbish? What do you know about it?

What does he know about it? I was in my constituency during the weekend. What does that hon. member know about it? I have received several calls from Indian people of Actonville … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to make a lengthy contribution to the debate at this stage. I just want to perform to essential and unhappy tasks. Firstly, I want to associate myself with several tributes paid this afternoon to Dr. Moolla, who was chairman of the S.A. Indian Council during his lifetime. Hon. members who spoke about him testified to his excellence, his responsibility and his competence as one of the truly leading figures in our Indian community. He attained that position because he towered above all the rest and not because he had sought it in any way. He was also the first Indian to receive an honorary doctorate from the university of Durban Westville. This in itself testifies to the great esteem in which he was held by his community. Therefore I should like to convey our condolences to his family on behalf of the Department of Indian Affairs and all hon. members of the House—I am sure that they would wish to associate themselves with this sentiment.

I mention the second matter with somewhat mixed feelings, but I have to inform the committee that the Secretary for Indian Affairs, Mr. G. J. Grümmer, is to retire from the service of the State at the end of the year, when he will have reached the age limit. Looking at him, it is difficult to believe that he will be 65 years early in January next year.

Mr. Grümmer joined the Public Service in 1934. First he was in the Department of Agriculture. During the war, he did important work as a young man in the Nutrition Department and in connection with the meat scheme. After that he served for 13 years in the office of the Public Service Commission, where he acquired a remarkable knowledge of the methods and organization of the Public Service. From there he went to the Department of Forestry, where he served for ten years and rose rapidly in his profession. There he also found an opportunity to express his love of the soil of South Africa.

For the past ten years, he has been serving in the Department of Indian Affairs, and I had the privilege of first working with him for a year in his capacity as Senior Deputy Secretary and then for four years in his capacity as Secretary for Indian Affairs. All who worked with him appreciated the opportunity of doing so. His knowledge, his humanity and—this is what I appreciate most—his realization that an administrative relaxation in the implementation of legislation and policy is often the mark of good government, are qualities which we shall remember.

I believe hon. members will join me in wishing him and Mrs. Brümmer a pleasant holiday. We pray that they may both long be spared so that they may fully enjoy their retirement after a lifetime of service and sacrifice.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to add my sympathy to that of the hon. the Minister on the death of the leader of the Indian community. I think his death was a loss not only to that community, but to South Africa too.

I should also like to wish Mr. Grümmer everything of the best for the future and thank him very much for the fine, moderate way in which he has acted in all his negotiations with people who have had dealings with him. I also want to thank him for devoting a good portion of his life to serving the Indian community, to their benefit.

If one listened to the hon. members of the Opposition, one would really have thought that the Indians of South Africa are living in the utmost poverty and misery, whilst in addition the Government is doing absolutely nothing for them. A Black man who recently visited India, told me on his return that before he had been there, he had never known what poverty was; now he does. The other day, in the course of a debate, the hon. the Minister of Agriculture said that we in South Africa often complain with a loaf of white bread tucked under one arm—and the Indians must be included here.

Colleagues on this side pointed out that a tremendous amount has been done for Indians by the department in the spheres of education and housing. As far as this is concerned, I feel that the Indians are in a particularly favourable position. The hon. member for Benoni also pointed out the facilities they have for university and school education and I say that they compare well with those of the other population groups in South Africa.

When one looks at the fine report of the department, one is impressed by the tremendous progress that the Indians are making in our community at the moment. If one looks at the report of the Indian Industrial Development Corporation, one notices that the share capital has increased from R3 million to R10 million over the past year alone, and that thousands of employment opportunities have been created by the corporation for the Indians. One also notices that the wage gap between Whites and Indians is rapidly closing. According to the report, there has been a slight drop in the number of registered unemployed Indians in the country. Then I also want to point out that banks are making use of the services of Indian clerks to an increasing extent. There is even an Indian bank manager and an Indian magistrate already. All this points to the progress that is being made.

In the agricultural sphere too—and this is where I should like to dwell for a moment today—great progress has been made. We see this particularly when we notice how much agricultural land Indians are purchasing and how they are bringing their farming methods up to date. It is clear from the report that the position with regard to the number of registered Indian voters in the country is as follows: In Natal there are approximately 240 000, in the Transvaal 37 000 and in the Cape approximately 7 000. This is to say that approximately 84% of the Indian population is to be found in Natal, 13% in the Transvaal, and 3% in the Cape. When one notices how many of the almost 285 000 registered Indians in South Africa are farmers, it makes the picture even more interesting. Between 2 000 and 3 000 Indians in South Africa are farmers. We find approximately 99% of them in Natal. In the North Coast area in particular, they farm sugar, vegetables and fruit. The largest percentage of them are, of course, sugar farmers. Now we notice that there has also been progress in the sphere of agricultural aid for these people.

The Land Bank has always helped them because they qualified for agricultural aid. However, they were also very much in need of aid in connection with agricultural credit. As hon. members know, most of them fall in the category of farmers who qualify for aid in connection with agricultural credit. This type of aid is very advantageous. We are very grateful for the fact that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture introduced legislation here this year in terms of which this type of aid is more readily available to Indian farmers. In terms of the legislation to which I have just referred, Indian farmers are also in a position to serve on the Agricultural Credit Board, because that board also discusses matters concerning the interests of the Indian farmers and makes decisions on them. Indians can now be co-opted to serve on that board. More Indian farmers will also be able to be helped in this regard due to the lower rates of interest that will be made available to them. In this way they will even be in a position to enlarge the farming units on which they are farming. They will also be able to obtain loans, for instance, for providing accommodation for their labourers, as well as loans for purposes of water provision, soil conservation works, cultivating plantations and disease control.

There are two categories of Indian farmers in Natal. By far the largest group is the smallholders. Then there is the other category consisting of a small percentage of moneyed Indian farmers, people who purchase land chiefly for investment purposes.

In addition, there are also eight trained Indian agricultural advisers, who serve the Indian farmers. The Sugar Association also provides a White agricultural adviser, who provides these farmers exclusively with assistance and advice. It is apparent from the report that 1 400 of these farms were visited by these advisers over the past year. Then there is also an advisory committee, on which senior officers of the Department of Agricultural Technical services serves. Their chief function is to negotiate with the Indian farmers, and they are further occupied with garden projects, bench terracing, building contour walls, inspections, etc.

I now want to refer in detail to the disaster that has struck Indian farmers and other farmers in Northern Natal and the north coast of Natal as well as the Natal midlands —particularly the eastern regions thereof. They are experiencing the worst drought in living memory. It is a great pity that those people are being adversely affected to such an extent by this drought. I quote the words of the hon. the Minister of Industries, and of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, who recently visited the sugar farmers, including the Indian sugar farmers, in order to determine the extent to which they have been affected by the drought. He said—

This is what he said after having visited the area where the drought prevails. It is a very serious state of affairs. Fortunately, it is not a very large area. In many of the areas the people have not yet experienced the like in this century. Usually they have very good rainfall along the north coast. Conditions have deteriorated to such an extent that even the river and the fountains have dried up.

I consulted the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs, Forestry and Environmental conservation, and he was good enough to give assistance at once by sinking boreholes. The hon. the Minister also promised to assist in water provision, as well as with other forms of aid, for the sugar farmers in particular. The situation is so serious that in certain areas there has been a 70% loss in the harvest for the maize farmers there. The Natal Agricultural Union also describes it as the worst drought of the century in this area. Financial aid is also being granted by Agricultural Credit to the Indian farmers on the same basis as to the White farmers in order to help them through the drought.

I went to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and he promised to do what he could. Amongst other things, he issued a statement in which he indicated what form of assistance is going to be given to the drought-stricken area. The following are examples—

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Vryheid has touched on the drought on the Natal North coast. This is a matter of the most tremendous importance. I welcome that he has raised the matter here and that he has brought it to the hon. the Minister’s attention. How fortunate it is that this year we passed an Act which included for the first time farmers of the Indian community within the purview of the Agricultural Credit Act. It is something which came just in time, and they have good reason to be grateful that they also will be able to benefit in what is going to be for them, as for all farmers in those areas, a very, very hard and trying time. I also intend dealing with the matter of farming, which falls within my own and the hon. member’s constituencies, and shall come back to the matter shortly.

I would also like to refer to Dr. Moolla. Those of us who serve on the Schlebusch Commission were present when he led the delegation from the S.A. Indian Council. We were very greatly impressed with the straightforward way in which he presented his evidence and with the deep thought he had given to the position he took up. His departure is a loss to the entire co<u>mmuni</u>ty of South Africa. We all associate ourselves with the words used by the hon. the Minister and others.

I would also like to associate my party with the good wishes expressed to Dr. Grümmer on his retirement. The hon. the Minister said Dr. Grümmer had been in the Forestry Department for ten years. That is a recommendation for anybody. Moving among the trees, one sees the cycles of nature and one knows that Rome was not built in a day. Change does not come about immediately. The hon. the Minister made a very telling point when he said that one of Dr. Brümmer’s strongest characteristics was his ability to vary by administrative action the letter of the statute in order to make the lives of people just that little easier. That is something of the utmost significance and should be copied by all people as a guideline, and I certainly welcome the indication from the hon. the Minister that he looks upon this with favour.

Having wished Dr. Brümmer a pleasant retirement I was hoping I might be able to say something pleasant also to the hon. the Minister. My experience with the Government is—and I have had a lot of experience with the Government—that if there is one way of ensuring that one will stay in one’s post until one drops dead, it is to make sure that someone is attacking one.

I have seen this happen so many times. When a Minister has got up and made a monumental boo-boo of one sort or another, and everyone starts attacking him, the hon. the Prime Minister clutches him firmly to his bosom more and more as the attacks mount. I am sure that hon. Minister is now firmly clutched to the hon. the Prime Minister’s bosom. I think he is going to be with us for a long time. [Interjections.] I am not looking for promotion for the hon. the Minister. I am sure he is going to stay where he is at the moment.

I want to deal with farming in my particular constituency. It is a noteworthy trend that in the past four or five years there has been an increasing flood of applications from members of the Indian community for the purchase of land for farming purposes. In the normal course of events, I am asked if I have any objections, and my MPC and the Natal Agricultural Union are also consulted, etc. That is the way the department works. I am certainly only too happy to see this process continuing. It is introducing a new factor into the farming situation in Natal and, of course, in South Africa as a whole, a factor I think we have to be conscious of. One of my very strong feelings is that the Indian community has a depth and wealth of talent that we are not exploiting to the full. The agricultural community is one of those that will benefit by the contribution they can make. As things are now, the Indian community has concentrated very largely on the fresh produce market. It is highly work-intensive and concentrates on short-haul activities and volume production. They have a talent, an absolute genius, for being able to produce to that extent. I think, however, that we are going to see a significant change now, because I have noticed that the areas of ground being applied for are getting bigger and bigger, and always the stipulation is made that these pieces of land will be farmed as farming units in accordance with the provisions of the Soil Conservation Act. I think this is very important indeed. This is particularly so in the Province of Natal where water is so—I mean, was so— abundant. I am sure this water supply will improve next year, and it is important that where there is land that can be utilized intensively with the available water, the special talents of the Indian community are talents we shall have to rely on very heavily indeed.

Yesterday we were discussing the Vote of the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development. A lot of the discussion centred around the changed attitude of the Black people towards farming, more particularly their attitude towards smaller plots. The Indian community has a great deal to contribute to this sort of change-over, and it certainly needs a fundamental change of attitude. I hope the hon. the Minister will be conscious of this and will be able to use the talents of the people who fall under his purview to help the whole of South Africa with what is a very significant development that has to take place if we are going to keep ahead of the population pressure.

While I am about it, may I raise another matter with the hon. the Minister in passing. I am referring to the qualifications that Indian veterinarians have acquired. There are two people who have acquired qualifications in India and who are registered by the Veterinary Council in South Africa, but who are not employed by the Department of Agriculture although they have applied for posts as State veterinarians. According to the Department of Agriculture, their qualifications apparently do not meet with departmental requirements. I am asking the hon. the Minister, as a matter of personal interest to him, to look into this matter. I have had a lot of experience of people coming from overseas with qualifications from some or other university which do not meet with our local requirements. After a while, however, one usually finds that matters can be sorted out. For example, an additional paper or additional exams can be written, etc. If we are not going to make use of qualified personnel who have, at their own expense, gone to India to study and qualify for these posts, we are going to cut ourselves off from people we need desperately, because there is no doubt that in agriculture there is a crying shortage of State veterinarians.

While I am talking about that, I want to ask the hon. the Minister a question. We are moving into a new era with a new constitution and so on and the hon. the Minister, as a member of the Schlebusch Commission, must keep it in the back of his mind that it must now surely be time for us to begin to move away from the monumental procedure involved whenever one wants to extend Indian residential areas. In my own constituency in the areas of Howick West and Richmond there has been pressure for more plots to be made available for Indian occupation. Surely it is time we made an arrangement whereby the Town and Regional Planning Commission of the province and the members of the Indian Council could get together, establish needs and entirely in the normal working of the provincial administration take the necessary steps without having to go through 14 different departments which all have to take a decision on this and without having to extend the period of time from the application to the declaration to three, four and five years in some cases. I ask the hon. the Minister, as a member of the Schlebusch Commission, to consider whether we cannot short-circuit that and streamline it by leaving it in the hands of the province concerned to deal with it in the normal course of its planning.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Mooi River will pardon me if I do not react to his speech, for although the largest Indian town in South Africa is situated within the boundaries of my constituency and approximately 300 000 people are living there who have virtually every kind of problem on earth, farming problems are fortunately the one type of problem that does not occur. Because such a large number of Indians are living in my constituency, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity today of spending some time in drawing attention to a very welcome phenomenon among the Indian population, a phenomenon which is once again mentioned in the department’s report this year as well. I am referring to the phenomenon of increasing diversification in respect of professions in the Indian community. On this occasion I should also like to pay tribute to the Department of Indian Affairs as well as the S.A. Indian Council for the major contribution the department and in subsequent years the Indian Council has made to this essential development in the Indian community.

Whether hon. members of this House agree or not, it has been the policy of this Government for the past 30 to 32 years now to encourage independent development among the various ethnic groups of our country and increasingly to promote the development of a consciousness among all population groups, including the Indian community, of their own identity and a pride in what is their own. One of the factors which stimulates this feeling of identity and which in turn is strengthened by a consciousness of identity of this nature, is the extent to which a population group is able to stand on its own two feet, as far as its professional and other services are concerned as well. If the Indian community of South Africa had remained a nation of labourers, small farmers and traders indefinitely, it would naturally have remained dependent on the services of other national groups as far as trades, security services, administration, etc. were concerned, and would have remained restricted in its economic development potential. This in turn impedes the full development of a group pride of its own. Fortunately, as I have already said, there are signs of greater professional diversification. A year ago the results of Manpower survey No. 12, which was carried out by the former Department of Labour, already pointed out that great progress had been made in this regard. I am just going to mention a few examples of the position among Indians in respect of various professions. These are professions other than those which I have mentioned and which have become almost traditional professions among the Indian community. The position is illustrated by comparing the figures for April 1978 with those of 1975. In 1978 there were 15 728 professional, semi-professional and technical Indian employees working in the Republic as against 11 500 three years before. Clerical employees rose from 40 500 to 47 300. The number of operators and semi-skilled employees in the building and construction industry rose from 670 to 2 270. I shall mention a few figures pertaining to apprentices in the trades as well. The number of apprentices in the metal and engineering trades rose from 73 to 242 between 1975 and 1978. In the electro-technical trades the figure rose from 77 to 248. In the building trades it rose from 650 to 880. In new professions too artisans have now emerged among the Indians. In the sphere of the diamond cutting, jewellery and goldsmith trades there were 81 artisans and 22 apprentices in 1978 as against none three years previously. In the hairdressing and diverse trades there were 235 and 67 apprentices respectively in 1978 as against none three years ago.

That pattern which was indicated last year in the Manpower No. 12 survey is again reflected in the latest annual report of the Department of Indian Affairs. This illustrates that this process is continuing. In the chapter on technical education—I do not really wish to discuss education—mention is made of the training Indian young people are receiving in respect of the carpenters’ and cabinet-makers’ trades, or as electricians, fitters and turners, engine drivers, electricians, motor mechanics, etc. Throughout one sees an upward tendency and it is clear that the 1978 pattern, as is evident from that manpower survey, is continuing. As far as the M. L. Sultan Technikon in Durban is concerned, I also want to point out that Indian students attained the highest marks in the Republic of South Africa in respect of building science, fitting and machine theory, boiler makers, and structural steel workers, etc.

Apart from this technical instruction mention is also made in the chapter on economic development of a whole number of first appointments of members of the Indian community. This particular chapter of the report points out various new professions which the young Indian has entered. Mention is also made of the fact that an Indian was appointed branch manager of a banking institution for the first time in 1978. The first Indian in South Africa who was appointed magistrate, was appointed in the course of this year in this very Chatsworth within the boundaries of my constituency. A total of 39 Indian clerks have been employed by the Post Office, etc.

When I say that we welcome this diversification of professions, then one must also point out that the department and the S.A. Indian Council have both made great and very successful efforts to create adequate employment opportunities for the young Indians. It is self-evident that if a community has shown its willingness to diversify more widely, and if young members of that community have displayed an aptitude for new professions, there must then be adequate employment opportunities. Then one can mention with great appreciation the efforts of the department through the activities of the M. L. Sultan Technikon, and in this regard I am just referring to the fact that the technikon’s workshops provide apprentices of steel enterprises, the Navy and of Sasol with practical training. The department makes representations to other State departments, and very successful representations were made to the Department of Justice and the Department of Posts and Telecommunications which today is employing a large number of young Indian men and apprentice technicians.

The South African Indian Council itself has also been active in this regard. Owing to the efforts of the Indian Council, an Indian Industrial Development Corporation was established, it was arranged that the SAS Jalsina would provide young Indians with naval training, etc. in Durban. I have already referred to the training of telephone technicians. At the instigation of the South African Indian Council new industrial land is being made available to Indian industrialists. Recently a new Indian radio programme was introduced. All of these things create employment opportunities for the members of this community.

It is true that a great deal still has to be done in the sphere of greater diversification. There are still certain professions which this community has virtually not entered at all. Quite apart from the professions, there is specifically finance, the sphere in which the great capital formers which every community really needs desperately for its economic development operate. In this sphere too there is still very limited participation by this community. With the exception of one banking institution, the Indian community, is still largely absent from banking, building societies and insurance. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, having examined the section “Education” in the department’s annual report, one comes to the conclusion that the department is rendering a positive and excellent service to the Indian population in respect of education. The aims of the policy are the following: To provide all school-going Indian children with an education; to improve the quality of Indian education; to provide an adequate number of properly qualified teachers; to provide the necessary schools and facilities to make tuition possible; the encouragement of Indian scholars to make themselves available for education; and single-minded planning to make it possible to meet existing and future needs.

Since the beginning of the 1979 school year, education has been compulsory for all Indian children in the seven to 15 year age category. An appeal is constantly being made to parents to comply with this obligation.

In order to realize the aim of improving the quality of Indian education, various research projects were undertaken during 1979. The most important of these projects are, inter alia, the following: An evaluation of the quality of education which is being provided in each of the accepted school phases; the possibility of a new approach in an effort to refine the selection procedure for the enrolment of pupils in either the ordinary or the practical course at the end of Std. 5; and, finally, the possibility of including a year mark in determining the results of the senior certificate examination. These research projects are being supported by an effective inspection service, which also ensures that all the necessary improvements be carried through to the class-room.

The aim of providing adequate and properly qualified teachers is being pursued by establishing the necessary training facilities as well as by the in-service training of teachers. For example, a new training college is being built at Laudium near Pretoria, and during 1979 a total of 1 956 students registered at the various training institutions, as against 1 770 in 1978. This increase in the number of enrolments at teachers’ training colleges is very encouraging, and if it continues, the department will probably be in the position to train the required number of teachers within the next five years. At the end of 1978, 357 student teachers completed their studies, as compared with 252 in 1977. As far as the in-service training of teachers is concerned, a programme of intensive orientation courses lasting a term was introduced as from 1 April 1977 at the Springfield Teachers’ Training College. The courses were designed to provide selected teachers with intensive classroom oriented training in subjects in which a staff shortage is being experienced. A section in the department is at present investigating the possibility of establishing a training college for further education. Serving teachers will be afforded the opportunity of improving their qualifications on a permanent and regular basis.

The policy of establishing the necessary school facilities becomes clear if one examines the analysis of the position as at 6 March 1979. At that stage there were 247 Government schools, 132 State subsidized schools and a total of 18 special, industrial and nursery schools. On 7 March 1979 nine new secondary schools and 15 primary schools were under construction, and important extensions were in progress at 16 secondary and 10 primary schools. At the end of 1979, 38 of the aforementioned projects were completed and it is expected that the remaining 12 projects will be completed by the middle of 1980.

The encouragement for Indian pupils to qualify themselves as teachers is confirmed by the increase in the bursaries which are being made available by the department. In this way bursaries were granted to 1 289 students in January 1979, as against 1 096 in 1978.

The department’s expenditure in respect of education has increased from R16 million in 1970 to R73 million in 1979-’80. This does not include the grants and subsidies to universities. A further analysis of the expenditure on education indicates that the per capita expenditure per pupil and student in 1969 compared to that in 1979 was as follows: In 1969 the per capita cost per primary pupil was R65,77 as against R232,13 in 1979; for secondary schools the per capita cost was R105,47 in 1969, as against R459,56 in 1979; and the per capita cost in respect of students at training colleges and universities amounted to R444 in 1969, as against R1 079,65 in 1979. However, it should be borne in mind that capital costs and capital redemption have not been included in these figures.

I believe it is clear from the above-mentioned statistics that the department has the interests of education at heart in its policy and also that the Indian population is prepared to co-operate. I wish to make an appeal to the Indian pupils to report in larger numbers to be trained as teachers in order to make a contribution in that way so that they too can help their own people in future.

Mr. Chairman, the last two hon. members to speak dealt with progress they have seen made in the Indian community. The hon. member for Prinshof dealt with education and the hon. member before him dealt with economic and commercial aspects. There have indeed been areas of progress. I believe much of this is a testimony to the guts, the determination and the inherent skill of members of the Indian community in the face of tremendous disadvantages resulting from the Government’s laws and regulations. I wonder if the same picture would have been painted for the House if, instead of the hon. member for Prinshof and the hon. member for Umlazi, the elected representatives of the Indian people themselves were to have told this House the story of Indian education and Indian economic progress.

I want to express some views and opinions on the large community of Indians of the Witwatersrand who live to the west of the CBD in Johannesburg. First of all I want to refer to Page View. For many years I visited Page View when it was still a thriving Indian community. More recently, in fact during this year, I went back there for a visit, and what I saw there I found absolutely shocking. I believe that the destruction of Indian homes and businesses in, and the eviction of Indian families from, Page View is as inhumane and as discriminatory as the eviction from, and the destruction of, the Coloured community’s houses in District Six. In certain ways it is even more so. I have listened to the hon. the Minister’s specious reasons in respect of District Six. He said that there tenants were exploited by others. In Page View, however, tenants have not been exploited. The houses there were largely owned by Indians under either leasehold or freehold. He could move Coloured city workers from Cape Town, but in Page View he was destroying flourishing businesses.

Your facts are already going wrong.

These flourishing businesses under leasehold or freehold were completely destroyed as the result of the demolition of the buildings. Lower income groups such as the Coloureds, he said, cannot go back to District Six because they cannot afford it. Houses in District Six will be too expensive for them. He knows, however, that the Indians of Page View are in a position to repurchase and redevelop Page View.

In densely populated sectors there are often some areas one could describe as slums, but one cannot, by any stretch of imagination, describe the whole of Page View as a slum. I have here 20 photographs of perfectly good homes in Page View— houses that any South African would be pleased to live in. These houses are all being bulldozed. Next door, in Vrededorp, they are allowing for urban renewal for Whites, but in Page View it is to be demolition and not urban renewal. There is no evidence of race tension there.

I challenge the hon. the Minister to give any evidence, or any report, of racial tension between the Indians and the other communities that have lived in that area. These people are to be kicked out of their community, which is to be destroyed, and then sent 40 km away from their ordinary places of employment, with totally inadequate compensation for both their homes and their businesses. This compensation is based on compensation values set way back in 1968. This compensation is completely inadequate. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that there can be no reasons for the destruction of Page View other than purely racist reasons. If it is not being done for racist reasons, why cannot Page View be redeveloped for the Indian people themselves? I want to ask pertinently what reason it is being done for if not for a racist reason. Why can the substantial, decent homes of middle income group people that still exist in Page View not be left intact and incorporated, where possible, into a new town planning or urban renewal scheme? I want to ask the Government why they cannot, even at this stage, think again about what I believe is one of the most disgraceful things a politically powerful community has done to a politically weak community—namely the destruction by the Government of the homes and the futures of the people of Page View.

These people are sent to Lenasia. I do not have time to dwell on it. There are many fine houses, wide streets and a thriving town centre in Lenasia, but already there are areas which, due to overcrowding and lack of accommodation and housing, are already starting to develop into slum areas. One can go there and see Wendy-houses constructed in back yards, outbuildings being constructed and garages being used to absorb the overflow of squatter or additional families who, because of removals under the Group Areas Act in the rest of the country, have been driven into the Lenasia area. There is already overcrowding in Lenasia and the schools are already bursting at the seams.

Right in the heart Of Lenasia there is something which shocked me even more. I have seen slums in Lagos, Kinshasa, Dakar and Dar-es-Salaam, but I have seen nothing that compares with the hon. the Minister’s slum in Thomsville.

You are talking the biggest lot of nonsense I have ever heard.

It is one of the most disgraceful situations that I have seen anywhere in Africa. It was built as a temporary transit camp, in 1963. Let me describe the scene there. The hon. the Minister went there, but not before notice had been given to tidy up the place because there was going to be a “royal visit”. Let us look at Thomsville. There are houses which do not comply with the regulations in terms of the hon. the Minister’s own Slums Act— two-roomed houses, eight feet by 10 feet, and nine feet by 10 feet; low corrugated asbestos roofs dripping with condensation; no ceilings, no fanlights, no air vents, no wash basins, no baths, no sinks, no plumbing, no electricity, no interleading doors, no privacy. The people living in these two-roomed brick boxes—that is all they are— have spoken to me. There are families of five people, seven people, nine people; people of all ages.

There are families who moved in when the kids were small, but who have been there for five to 11 years, with the children growing up, with teenage girls and boys, mothers, fathers, grandparents, all having to sleep in two rooms, that being their total accommodation. I found there, in a four-roomed house, a family of 16 people. They had to live in rooms as big as Mr. Speaker’s table—eight feet by 10 feet. In that room 16 people of various ages had to sleep. Two of them were ill in bed. Old people and young people are all living in this one tiny place.

The hon. the Minister should be ashamed of himself. I as a South African am ashamed of what I saw there. I think it is absolutely disgraceful. How can one have people living in those conditions?

You are putting your foot right into it again.

I want to know from the hon. the Minister how long Thomsville is going to remain there. The hon. the Minister has told us about a couple of hundred thousand rand being spent repainting the place. I want to point out some of the conditions there. The outside communal lavatories are broken. Green slime is oozing all over the place. Taps do not work. The hon. the Minister knows the situation. I ask him how long Thomsville is still going to remain there. When is he going to make it habitable? Is he prepared to give the residents of Thomsville absolute priority in new housing before he begins to demolish other housing? Is he going to stop demolishing good houses at Page View before he rehouses the people of Thomsville?

There is uncertainty now about the rest of the Indian community adjacent to Page View. The areas of Fordsburg, Burgersdorp and Diagonal Street have already had their viability destroyed because they shared amenities with Page View. I ask the hon. the Minister pertinently what the Government’s policy is regarding the future existence of Indian communities in Fordsburg, Burgersdorp and Newtown. What is that policy? Are they going to be allowed to remain there? Are they going to be allowed to improve their properties, or are they going to be kicked out? Are the Indian traders going to be allowed there or are we going to have the Oriental Plaza surrounded by a White residential area?

What about the schools in that area? Is the hon. the Minister going to have the schools rebuilt? The Transvaal College of Education is going to be replaced by a new Indian Education Institution in Laudium. The old college buildings are going to become vacant. Once upon a time it used to be an Indian High School. Is it going to be made available once again as an Indian High School in that area? This is the specific question I put to the hon. the Minister. There are also other schools in that area, but I am referring particularly to that Indian High School. Is it going to be redeveloped into a high school or not? I also want to know whether boarding facilities will be available at the new training school at Laudium. Are boarding facilities going to be made available for Indians at Laudium, some 70 km or so away from this area? I want to know from the hon. the Minister what provision he is making for the technical education of Indians in the Transvaal. What is he doing?

I was shocked at the whole destruction of Page View, at the pall of uncertainty, and insecurity that hangs over the Indian Communities in the Vrededorp and Fordsburg areas. In other areas they are perhaps fortunate enough—for instance, in the Durban area—to sustain themselves because of the size of their community. As I see the Transvaal Indian community, however, resilient and tough though it is, that Indian community on the Witwatersrand has been trapped by the Government in its Group Areas Act and is now being bullied by the Government through its Group Areas Act. We submit that the Government has to stop this now or else it has to be prepared to reap the whirlwind.

Mr. Chairman, in his absolutely unbridled language, in which the hon. member makes use of the grossest exaggeration, he speaks of the “inhuman, discriminatory action in moving the people from Page View”.

The hon. member for Sea Point was speaking the absolute truth.

Let me ask the hon. member for Sea Point, who wants to be so humane towards others, is it humane to have a community in which there is no school, where there is no land on which to build a school, where there is no land for community centres, recreational facilities and parks? He referred to the fine houses and beautiful streets in Page View, but a community does not consist of houses and streets. These things are not the soul of the pulsating life of a community. [Interjections.] If the hon. member says that the slum conditions which he saw in Thomsville were far worse than those which he saw in Lagos and elsewhere, surely this is the grossest untruth imaginable, and an unpatriotic thing to say. [Interjections.]

It is not an untruth.

If any community in any nation whatsoever wants to participate in the political processes in a meaningful and effective way, two things in particular are necessary. In the first place there must be a structure in which the people can operate, and in the second place there must be a corps of leaders who are identifiable and have the confidence of the community. I am not going to say much about the structure. The hon. member for Newcastle discussed it very effectively. We are also awaiting the Constitution Commission report in which certain comprehensive plans are set out in that respect.

The hon. member for Newcastle pointed out how the Indian community had developed constitutionally in an evolutionary way, initially from a nominated council, then to a partially nominated council and at present there is legislation for an enlarged and fully elected council which is shortly to be elected. An increasing number of functions will be entrusted to that council. Whatever the Constitution Commission recommends, two things are, in my opinion, essential. In the first place the Indian community must have a say in that eventual political dispensation of theirs. The interim report of the Schlebusch Commission was tabled this afternoon, but I have not read it yet.

I am sure you have not read it!

I trust that the report makes provision for a consultative mechanism so that the Indian community, just like the Coloured community, will be able to have a say in its constitutional dispensation. In the second place, whatever the dispensation may be—I wonder why there is a grin on the face of the hon. member for Pinelands—certain principles must be taken into account. The first is the recognition of multinationalism as spelt out in the 12-point plan of the hon. the Prime Minister. Any constitutional plan which does not take this into account is nothing but a blueprint for chaos in this country. Concomitant from that must also be the principle which the hon. the Prime Minister states so clearly in the 12-point plan, viz. vertical differentiation. This implicitly embodies the principle of self-determination. There is something which always bothers me when we pass amending legislation on Indian education in this House, and I say this quite frankly. I do not think any nation is competent to pass judgment on another nation’s affairs. In my opinion we are not competent to judge what is good for Indian education. That is why we must have maximum self-determination. In the third place, whatever arises out of this, a division of power between the Whites, Coloureds and Indians, and where there are common interests, is a consultative body.

More important even than the structure which has to be created are the people that have to operate within that structure. One’s finest ideals can founder if one does not have the people to implement those plans. In this respect the Indian community is very well equipped with a very effective social infrastructure from which competent leaders can arise. Various persons have paid tribute this afternoon to a very great leader in the Indian community who died recently. There are many others as well. There is an educational structure which can produce eminent leaders. We have heard about 212 000 Indian children at school. Last year there were almost 7 500 pupils in Std. 10. Then the hon. member for Sea Point—I cannot quite recall the words he used—referred to what has been achieved in the education sphere “in the face of tremendous disadvantages”. Surely this is untrue. It has been mentioned that 27% of the Indian population is at school. Can he tell me whether there is a single country in Africa—I include the White group of South Africa—which can equal that figure? If the hon. member can mention such a country to me, he must, in the words of the English marriage form, “Speak now or forever hold his peace”. [Interjections.] Surely this is an unsurpassed achievement. Up to 1959 the hon. member who is seated there was a member of the United Party in this House, and so too the hon. member for Musgrave who is seated in front of him, an hon. member who referred scornfully to education. Do hon. members know what the position of education was when it was controlled by the old United Party in Natal? When this Government took over, there were 1 300 pupils in matric. Of these, 7% took Afrikaans as a second language.

And under Van Riebeeck it was disgraceful too.

In this education structure there were—and this is the figure for last year—more than 4 600 students at university, and here I am referring to the University of Durban-Westville. Up to the ’thirties, as far as I can recall, the Afrikaans community most definitely did not have 4 600 students at its various universities. However, a corps of leaders developed out of this number of students, people who became Prime Ministers and great and dynamic leaders in various spheres in this country. I am thinking, for example, of the University of Fort Hare which never had a large number of students. However, we find its leaders throughout this country. In our national States, beyond this country, there are Prime Ministers who were educated at the University of Fort Hare. I have every confidence that the leaders of tomorrow are among those 4 600 students at the University of Durban-Westville. But the Indians do not have only 4 600 students, not if one adds a further 2 000 teachers’ training college students at tertiary level. There are also the students studying at White universities and thousands at Unisa as well. If we take all those students into account there are probably more than 10 000 Indian students receiving tertiary training today.

The hon. member for Umlazi referred to professional diversification. There is an infrastructure from which those leaders for tomorrow can come, leaders who can play a significant part in politics. There is the legal profession as well. If I look at my colleagues around me, it is apparently the most popular profession for entry to public life. In the legal profession more than 200 students were engaged in the course of my friend, the hon. member for Pretoria Central, at the University of Durban-Westville last year. Thirty-six of them obtained law degrees last year. There was talk of 8 300 teachers. This is a very popular profession. There was a time when the only leaders the Afrikaner had were really his clergymen and teachers. The Indians have 8 300 teachers. A third of their staff at their university are Indians. In addition, 86% of the officials are Indians. Let us examine the commercial sector. Surely no community in our country makes such a contribution to this sector as the Indians do in proportion to their numbers. Surely it requires exceptional managerial skill to make the grade there, and the Indians have displayed those skills. A while ago I read that there were approximately 800 Indian industrialists. Apart from the Whites they form the group in our country from which the entrepreneurs must come who are able to provide work for the thousands of people in our country. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I immediately want to associate us on these benches with the tributes which have been paid from all sides of the House to the late Dr. Moolla who was well known to me and who was a very highly respected South African. I also want to express our good wishes to Dr. Grümmer, the Secretary of the department, on his retirement and to wish him well in his retirement.

In the few minutes remaining to me in this debate I want to respond to some of the comments that have come from the Government benches and to raise a few other matters with the hon. the Minister. Listening to the speeches by members on the Government benches, one notices that the same strain ran through all of them. They believed that members of the Indian community in South Africa should be satisfied with their lot. If they were not satisfied, the hon. members opposite found it impossible to understand why that should be so.

That is absolute rubbish.

The hon. member for Rissik said that he believed the Indian people were satisfied and he used the argument that they were satisfied because they were not leaving South Africa to go and live elsewhere. He said they were better off than Indian people elsewhere in Africa and he said that the very fact that they remained here indicated that they were satisfied. I regard that to be a gross impertinence. The South African Indian community are South Africans. They are fourth or fifth generation South Africans. They are entitled to remain in South Africa and they will remain in South Africa, but that does not necessarily mean that they are satisfied with their lot and that they do not have grievances.

Who said that?

The hon. member for Rissik said it.

The hon. member for Newcastle gave us an exposition of his own views of the constitutional changes. He said he believed that there should be evolutionary constitutional development. He also in a paternalistic way set out a list of the things which he thought members of the Indian community should not involve themselves in. He said, inter alia, that they should not get involved in making threats to the Whites, that they should not have alliances with other groups, that they should not lend themselves to irresponsible and emotional behaviour, and that they should not refuse to give evidence before a commission like the Schlebusch Commission. At the end of it all, he said he found it strange that two members of the Indian Council had resigned at a time when they were on the threshold of such important and exciting changes in South Africa. Do members on the Government benches never learn? Do they never ask themselves why people adopt certain attitudes?

The hon. member for Benoni, for instance, talked about the whole question of Indian pupils associating with Coloured pupils in the boycott. He said they had no grievances. He said he could not understand what they were doing. He said what happened was that two or three people had become agitators and they had managed to persuade both the pupils and the parents to associate with the boycott about which the pupils knew nothing at all.

Do you agree?

Does the hon. member not ask himself how it is possible for a group of pupils and a group of parents to be persuaded to take action of a particular kind by two or three agitators unless there is some justification for it, unless there is something very deep-rooted underlying it all?

Quite clearly, what hon. members on the Government benches should be asking themselves is why it is that the Indian pupils in this instance have been moved to show solidarity with the Coloured pupils. That is what they should be asking themselves. They should not simply be saying that they have no grievances at all. I believe that the reaction of Indian pupils is highly significant and I believe that the Government should take note of it and should ask themselves very seriously why it is that we have this manifestation at the present time.

The hon. member for Newcastle said he could not understand why two members of the Indian Council had resigned. I would say they resigned because they were totally disillusioned with the type of Indian Council it is. I would say they resigned because they were totally disillusioned with the dispensation the Government is offering them.

They did not give those reasons. You are guessing now.

The hon. member said he could not understand it. I am trying to help him to understand it.

It is remarkable that we, in the year 1980, can sit in the House this afternoon and discuss the affairs of the Indian people while, neither in the officials’ bay nor in the House itself, there is a single Indian. A group of Whites are discussing what is good for the entire Indian community. Again, hon. members should ask themselves whether members of the Indian community should not be sitting amongst us so that they could give expression to the opinions of their own people. This is what they should be asking themselves.

No Indians, but too many chiefs.

There are many justifiable grievances. I have mentioned the Group Areas Act and the response of Indian leaders to that Act. These are questions that have to be answered. There are also other grievances. Some of them are major grievances which hurt the dignity of people.

In the few minutes at my disposal I want to cite to the hon. the Minister just another incident where there is again a conflict between the Minister in his capacity as Minister of Indian Affairs and the Minister in his capacity as Minister of Community Development. I am going to quote an incident and a name which has been used very much in this House this afternoon, namely what Dr. A. M. Moolla, chairman of the now defunct S.A. Indian Council, said. He said—

This was in March of this year. He said further—

This was the hon. the Minister’s other department refusing a permit for that sort of activity. The late Dr. Moolla went on to say—

He then went on to comment the Group Areas Act by saying—

That is the situation, and those are the hurts which are inflicted upon the people. It is this sort of thing to which the Government should give attention.

Mr. Chairman, I find it very interesting that the hon. member for Musgrave tried to enter the debate again at the very last moment. I think he did it in an attempt to make something at least of the contribution of his party to this debate. This is the sixth year I have sat here listening to a discussion of Indian Affairs, and in those six years I have never seen such a feeble exhibition on the part of the official Opposition as the one they produced today. The attempt of the hon. member for Musgrave did not succeed either, because he had to resort to a criticism of Community Development instead of saying something about Indian Affairs. They must thank their lucky stars that I am also the Minister of Community Development, for what would they have been able to discuss if they had not been able to attack me on the wrong Vote and on the wrong subjects? Consequently I am not going to reply in detail today to matters which they can raise again under the discussion of the Community Development Vote. Today I am going to discuss the Group Areas Act … or rather Indian Affairs. [Interjections.] I am pleased hon. members are laughing about that. We shall see whether they keep on laughing. I am going to discuss matters which concern the Indians, and also the Group Areas Act in so far as it affects the Indians.

That was all that we did, too.

When the hon. member for Musgrave began today, he spoke with much gesticulation about the Group Areas Act and the deplorable housing conditions in which the Indian population allegedly finds itself. When I said five years ago that I thought we would, within seven years, or so, begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel, they tried to make me look ridiculous. It astonishes me that the hon. member for Musgrave, when he speaks about Durban—his own city and in regard to which he could have obtained the figures, from my department or elsewhere—makes the wild allegation that the situation remains distressing, it remains wretched, not enough is being done and also that at present there are 25 000 people without housing. He mentioned the figure 25 000.

That is the waiting-list of the Durban City Council.

How many times have I not tried to help the hon. member? I am extremely patient, and I call upon all hon. members as witnesses to listen now. How many times have I not told the hon. member for Musgrave that the most unreliable source of statistics on housing shortages is the waiting lists of municipalities? The people put their names down on more than one of those waiting-lists for various areas because they want to move into the first house which becomes available, and should they find accommodation in one of these places, they forget to take their names off the lists for the other places. Consequently our experience everywhere has been that those figures are completely unreliable. Why does the hon. member for Musgrave not say so, for surely the information is available? The fact of the matter is that he is irresponsible and reckless if he debates with figures which he has not verified. Why did he not take the least bit of trouble to ascertain what is being done to eliminate that backlog? He could have established from the Durban Municipality to what building programme that municipality has already been committed, with money from the Department of Community Development, where the houses are under construction, and where tenders have been called for.

I acknowledged the progress that has been made.

The hon. member did not acknowledge the facts. The fact of the matter is that, in conjunction with the municipality of Durban, we have calculated that in order to keep pace with the natural increase, 4 000 houses will have to be built within the next two years. We are already committed to building 4 000 houses within the next two years, so that the natural increase will not cause a bigger backlog. But that is not all. Apart from those 4 000 houses, we are also committed to building a further 7 000 houses. Indian families are on the large side. If an average of only four people live in each of those houses, 28 000 people will be accommodated within the next two years, and that hon. member himself states that the waiting list is only for 25 000 people. Surely one cannot conduct a debate in this way. We are dealing here with a community which is important to South Africa. We are dealing here with a community whose goodwill is important for the social welfare of the whole of South Africa. As members of this House of Assembly, of this sovereign Parliament of South Africa, surely we have a responsibility, when we are dealing with such an important and in certain aspects delicate matter, to keep ourselves informed on the matters which we wish to raise. It grieves me to think how many times already I have asked the hon. members, if they wish to take part in debates here, to go to the Hendrik Verwoerd building, where my officials, who are good officials, will supply them with the facts. They will not dictate to hon. members what they should do in the political sphere, but they will look for the facts and help hon. members so that they can come here and make a contribution which is worthy of Parliament. Instead of that, I have to listen to this type of thing from one speaker after another on that side of the House.

The hon. member referred to the rent increases which are possibly going to be introduced in Durban. He spoke about sudden rent increases when lessees reach the income limit, the R150 mark, when they change from sub-economic to partially economic, and the R250 mark when they enter the lower economic category. It has been stated repeatedly in the Press that the National Housing Commission is at present engaged in an investigation to see how we can eliminate those jumps, when people move from the one income limit to the next. He knows this; he must know it if he takes an interest. Secondly: Surely he saw that the chairman of the Executive of the Indian Council came to see me last Sunday to discuss these matters. He was far more effective, far better informed and far more responsible than the hon. member for Musgrave. As a result of that visit, I shall meet these people again in Durban on Monday, 22 May, with my officials, to see what can be done. He knows this. Why does he not stand up and thank me for the interest? Why does he imply that nothing is being done and that everything is being done incorrectly?

Because you said in the Senate that you would not receive a deputation.

I now wish to spend a little time on this hon. member. He, and quite a number of other hon. members, raised the question of education. The hon. members for Musgrave, Umhlanga, Umhlatuzana, Benoni, Prinshof and others did so. I wish to spend some time on this. The first thing I want to say is that it struck me how little was said by hon. members about the schools boycott. The hon. member for Benoni was the only hon. member who devoted a major portion of an excellent speech to that subject. The others more or less avoided the subject. I do not wish to elaborate on it now; it is not necessary for me to do so. However, I just wish to say that it was very difficult for the hon. members to raise the matter because the only real justification which could be advanced for the participation of certain Indian schools in the boycott is that they did so out of sympathy with the Coloureds. They did not do so on the basis of their own circumstances, but as a sympathetic gesture towards the Coloured students. That is why I do not wish to reply to the matter now, for it is very difficult for me to prescribe to people where their sympathies should lie. If they had had any real grievances, I could have dealt with them. The hon. member for Musgrave alleged that one of the problem areas in regard to which the Indians harbour grievances, is their inferior training and education. I now call the House to witness by mentioning facts, and not by making wild allegations. Then I want the hon. member to tell me that we are neglecting Indian education in South Africa. In 1970 there were 1 654 students at the University of Durban Westville. At present there are 5 064 students. In addition there are approximately 1 000 Indian students at White universities and a further 5 000 Indians who are studying through the University of South Africa. Does it look as though these people do not have the opportunities to make progress? In 1970 the staff at the University of Durban Westville consisted of 151 members, of whom 34 were Indians. Last year there were 298 staff members, of whom 116 were Indians. In 1970 the expenditure on this university amounted to R1,5 million. Last year it amounted to more than R8 million. The income of the university itself was approximately R100 000 in 1970. This year the income amounted to more than R1 million. In 1970 the unit costs per student amounted to R702,80. Last year the figure was R1 326. This was spent on the university training of people who, according to the allegations the hon. member for Musgrave are being neglected.

In respect of education for children the figure is far higher than the Natal Provincial Council spent in the old UP days when the United Party, of which I was a member, was in office. At that time there were 161 676 scholars at school. Last year there were 212 894 children at school. The number of scholars increased by 50 000 and the number of teachers from 6 000 to 8 241. Of these 8 241 teachers only 25 were Whites and five Coloureds. Of these teachers 1 665 had degrees, and 5 538 had a matriculation certificate or its equivalent. Does the hon. member still maintain that Indian education is being neglected? In 1970 there were less than 1 300 student teachers at the training colleges and universities. Last year there were approximately 2 000. In 1970 R404 000 was paid out in bursaries to students. Last year this figure was R699 000. I can continue in this vein. I said that I wish to spend some time on this subject, because I wished to furnish the facts. The amount appropriated for Indian education in 1970 was R16 167 000, of which R12,75 million was spent on salaries. Last year the figure was no longer R16 million, but R73 million, and the salaries did not amount to R13 million but to R53,25 million. Does this look like people whose education is being neglected?

I come now to the unit costs. We hear so much about the per capita expenditure on school children. In 1969 the per capita expenditure on children in primary schools was R65,77. Last year it was no longer R65, but R232 per child, and the figure still does not tell the whole story. On children at secondary schools the per capita expenditure in 1969 was R105. In 1979 the figure amounted to almost R500, and that is not the whole story either.

Compare that with the position of the White children.

I shall come to that. I concede that White children are a long way ahead, but I just want to point out how rapidly the figure in respect of Indian students is increasing, far more rapidly than in the case of White students. The time has now come for us to receive honest replies from hon. members on the opposite side of this House. I have, with my figures, demonstrated that we are doing everything within our means. In fact, we are almost doing more than we can to improve the standard of Indian education. Now the hon. member wants to know how this compares with the position of the Whites. He must now state whether he wants us to raise the level of education of the Indians, Coloureds and Blacks and improve this education at the expense of the education received by the White children in this country. [Interjections.] If that is the case, surely it is quite unfair and unjust to ask how it compares with the education of the White child.

It is not necessary, that is a racistic statement.

The hon. member for Bryanston had time enough to shout. If he wants to interrupt me, he can do so in a courteous way and not by shouting.

Just tell us …

Order!

It is fair to criticize us if they think we are not doing enough, but then they must first see whether we are not perhaps doing enough by establishing what progress we are making in the improvement of education and not see only the gap between the education of White children and the education of other children in this country.

As far as the teachers’ training colleges are concerned, the per capita figure in 1969 was R444, while it was R1 709 last year. Surely that is progress. Not even the hon. member for Musgrave can deny it.

I conceded that you were making progress.

Why do those hon. members draw such unfair comparisons? They do so simply to create a grievance among the people and to cause them to think that they are being maltreated.

I think it is high time I placed a few other facts on record too. When we compare the per capita expenditure on Indian education with that on White education we are comparing things which are not comparable. The education of Whites is undertaken by the provincial administrations, which have comprehensive education departments that have to do all the work in connection with education. For example they undertake to build and maintain schools. These amounts are included in the calculation when the per capita expenditure on White education is determined. In determining the unit costs of Indian education there are certain things which are not included in the calculation, but which are in fact included in the calculation by the provincial administrations in determining the unit costs of White education. I now wish to furnish those figures and then express them as a percentage of the unit costs which are borne by our biggest education department, the Transvaal Education Department.

If we calculate the costs of Indian education, we do not count the State contribution to the pension funds. This contribution to the pension funds represents 8,3%, or one-twelth of the expenditure of the Transvaal Education Department, and this is added in when they determine what they are spending per child in that province.

Small repairs to building works are carried out for the Indians by the Department of Public Works. This is not reflected in the estimates of the Department of Indian Affairs, but expenditure on such repairs, which represents 3,2% of the unit expenditure of the Transvaal Education Department, are in fact reflected in the education estimates for the Transvaal.

Housing subsidies and other conditions of service for teachers are, in the case of the provincial administrations, reflected in their own estimates, and in the case of the State it comes on to the account of the Department of Community Development. These subsidies, etc., represent no less than 1,5% of the unit expenditure of the Transvaal Education Department. The costs in respect of board and lodging and hostels are added in as part of the costs of educating a White child at school, but not as part of the costs of educating an Indian child. This represents 10% of the unit costs.

Capital works, for example the construction of Indian schools, is done by the Department of Public Works, while the provincial administrations have to do this work themselves. Capital works represent 10% of the unit cost. These costs, which comprise approximately one-third of the unit costs of education of White children, are not added in when calculating the costs of Indian or Coloured education. However, no one tries to establish whether what they compare is in fact comparable. They simply seek for reasons with which they can arouse an artificial sense of grievance and maltreatment among these communities in South Africa. I want to tell them that it is blatantly unfair.

The hon. member for Musgrave also had a lot to say about the backlog in regard to schools, and he discussed the huge classes. I want to tell him that between Std. 1 and Std. 7 there are not 40 children per classroom, but 35. In the high schools—and the hon. member did not refer to them at all—the figure is 25, which indicates tremendous progress when this is compared to the position a few years ago.

I now wish to refer to the school building programme as well. When I became Minister in 1975, I said that we would during the ensuing five years spend R37 million on the construction of new schools for Indians. Then everyone thought it was excellent. Even hon. members opposite did not criticize me for doing this. In those five years, however, an actual amount of R43 million was spent on the construction of schools for Indians. During the past financial year— 1979-’80, the Department of Public Works— and I wish to pay tribute to them for the wonderful work they are doing—spent almost R14 million on Indian schools. During the present financial year, an amount of R22 million has been appropriated for this purpose. The target for next year is R28 million. For the 1982-’83 financial year an amount of R33 million is being contemplated, and for 1983-’84, an amount of R35 million. However, the hon. member for Sea Point kicks up a fuss here, implying that these people are being grossly neglected, that we are being cold-hearted towards them, and that we are satisfied with the situation in which they find themselves.

If you would allow me, Mr. Chairman, I should just like to quote a few figures briefly as an example of how we are endeavouring to make up the leeway. The libraries for White children in Natal, for example, are better supplied with books than those of Indian schools. There is a backlog, but it is a backlog which we inherited. What are we doing to make up that backlog? In the White secondary schools R900 per annum is being voted for every 1 000 pupils for books. In the secondary schools for Indians the amount voted for books for every 1 000 pupils is not R900, but R2 000. In this way we are trying to catch up with the backlog. However, there is no recognition of this. All that is being done is that an atmosphere is being created in the hope that dissatisfaction and ill-feeling will arise among the Indian community of South Africa. There are many other things, but I just wish to refer to one more.

The hon. member for Musgrave discussed the salary gap as allegedly being something terrible. Has the hon. member ever tried to establish what it would cost to introduce parity of salaries in South African education? Does the hon. member know that it would cost hundreds of millions of rands?

You can find more money if you stop bull-dozing properties.

Do you see now, Mr. Chairman? The hon. member said that we are spending money on bull-dozing properties, but that we have no money for education. He says this after I have just told him how many millions we are in fact making available for this purpose. As regards parity of salaries, we have this year reached the third phase of the process in which these are to be equalized. It is already applying to the principals of high schools. The difference between the salaries in Indian education and those in White education, which, in the days when the United Party was still administering the province of that hon. member—was between 70% to 100%, and is now between 90% and 94%—this is what the Indian teachers receive—of the salaries of White teachers. Surely that is tremendous progress. But the hon. member knows nothing about it. No recognition is given. There is no respect for these facts. There is only respect for those facts which they search out themselves to create misrepresentations of the true position in South Africa.

The hon. member spoke about discrimination. As I have done so many times before, I shall simply tell him now that it is the policy of the Government to eliminate all forms of unnecessary discrimination, of discrimination which is hurtful. This is happening every day. I cannot elaborate on it now, for then I would really be straying very far from the subject under discussion. However, it remains the policy of the Government. This has been stated time and again. It remains the policy. It is being done. However we are constantly forced to listen to propaganda implying that the hon. the Prime Minister is moving contrary to the wishes of the so-called verkramptes in the NP. I have not yet come across such a person. [Interjections.] I have not yet come across one. What I have come across is pseudo-verligtes on the opposite side of the House, imitation posed verligtes on the opposite side of the House. We find many of them. [Interjections.] The hon. member said they wanted equal opportunities for the Indians. What is the key to equal opportunities? The key is decent education and training. No one can deny that we are doing everything possible, within our financial and physical means, for the coloured communities in South Africa. We cannot educate more children than those for whom there are teachers to teach. We cannot have fewer children in a classroom if there are not enough classrooms. We are building at a rate unequalled in the history of South Africa. These are the facts. In this way we are creating equal opportunities. Is the hon. member not aware of the amelioration of laws, for example section 77 of the Industrial Conciliation Act, the removal of work reservation, the new trade union policy and other things which are creating equal opportunities?

The hon. member for Mooi River discussed the problems experienced by veterinarians if they come to this country from another country. I shall see what the position is and what I am able to do. Did the hon. member not see what I did as Minister to make it possible for doctors who had practised in Cairo, at a university which did not recognize our degrees, to be able to practise in South Africa within a reasonable space of time? This is the creation of equal opportunities. Hon. members must not come forward with what I can only describe as a kind of gossip-mongering, to mar politics between Whites and non-Whites in South Africa. It was said that many Indians have to fight against poverty. That is true. We see the tremendous progress which the Indian community is making. I agree with the hon. member that we do not always give them credit for this. I read a report in Die Vaderland a few days ago in which, on the basis of statistics, it was stated that over the past five years the income of South African Indians had risen more rapidly than that of all other races. That is what we are making possible for them. We cannot do this without tuition or opportunities. If what the hon. member for Sea Point said was true, viz. that we are denying them opportunities to make progress under the Group Areas Act, is true, how is it possible that they are able to show this progress? He is saying what is not true. The facts refute it.

The absolute truth.

I have now said enough about the contribution made by the hon. member for Musgrave. He was the main speaker on the hon. Opposition side. The tone and the method which he adopted was also the tone and method of everyone on the opposite side of the House.

That is why I wish to express my thanks and appreciation to hon. members on this side of the House. The hon. member for Rissik and the hon. member for Roodepoort, who unfortunately had to leave, spoke after the hon. member for Musgrave. Fortunately they restored balance to the debate and indicated what a difference it makes to the quality of a debate if one takes facts into account and in a temperate way. For that I wish to thank them, as well as the hon. member for Umhlanga, who asked me about the throwing open of the central business district in Durban.

†An MP has so many things to attend to that sometimes he can miss an important news item in the newspapers. So the hon. member for Umhlanga probably missed the announcement I made at the end of April about the opening of the central business districts in South Africa to all races. The hon. member will know that from 1 April 1980 the Group Areas Board, and the administration of those aspects of the Group Areas Act which fall under the Group Areas Board, became my responsibility under the rationalization programme. One of the first things I did was to issue a statement on 15 April 1980 in which I dealt with the recommendation in the Riekert Commission report that central business districts should be open to all races subject to an investigation by the Group Areas Board, where people could give evidence, and, after that, subject to declaration under the Group Areas Act. That was accepted in the White Paper. To implement it, however, it is necessary to consolidate certain aspects of the Group Areas Act and I said that that could not be completed this session.

I also announced—and this is my answer to my hon. friend—that the Department of Community Development, and I as the Minister, would ask the Group Areas Board to begin immediate investigations, where the demand was obvious, into common business areas in terms of section 19 of the Group Areas Act, which is available for this purpose whilst other Acts are being reconsidered. That is being done. In fact, when I knew that this was going to happen, the Department of Community Development was asked to look at certain areas, in advance, with a view to declaring open business areas in terms of section 19 of the Group Areas Act as quickly as possible. I want to assure my hon. friend that this will be done as fast as possible. The concluding sentence of the statement of 15 April reads as follows—

This is with a view to joining up the activities of the two sections of the department. I quote further—

Not afterwards—

So that matter, I can assure my hon. friend, is receiving attention. I expect that there will be interesting announcements and interesting developments before Parliament meets again in January.

The hon. member also spoke about schools, but I think I have already replied to what he had to say, unless he has any specific questions.

*I come now to the hon. member for Bryanston. I was his political mentor. [Interjections.] However, all of us have had our failures in this life.

Very well trained!

He heard the bell tolling, but did not know for whom. He heard that there might possibly be a conflict in the heart of a person who is at the same time Minister of Community Development and Minister of Indian Affairs. He said that one of the unhappiest consequences of the rationalization policy of the hon. the Prime Minister was that he made me Minister of Community Development and of Indian Affairs.

That he did not remedy the situation. You have always been.

Surely that is not true. I became Minister of Community Development and of Indian Affairs in 1976, under Mr. John Vorster. What is happening now is that the hon. the Prime Minister, with his policy of rationalization—has separated the Department of Community Development from the Department of Coloured Relations and the Department of Indian Affairs.

I knew that too.

This is the preparation for speeches we find among hon. members on that side of the House. [Interjections.] The hon. member also discussed the question of the resettlement of traders in terms of the Group Areas Act. Mr. Chairman, forgive me if I refer just for a moment to the Department of Community Development. One would think that we, in the Department of Community Development, were seizing all the Indian traders we could get hold of by the scruff of the neck, shunting them around, and moving them all over the place. Two years ago I conducted negotiations with the Executive of the Indian Council under the chairmanship of the late Dr. Moolla.

We arrived at certain agreements. One agreement was that no further Indian traders in the cities or big towns of South Africa would be moved, except in Ladysmith in Natal, where things had gone too far and had to be stopped, and except in the Transvaal rural areas, where there were special circumstances of friction and slum conditions which made it essential to move those people. In the cities, however, they would not be removed, except in terms of the Slums Act, which is in any case applicable to everyone. We would also afford them opportunities to improve their properties. Anyone listening to the hon. member now, however, would not have had any idea at all that the hon. member knows about these things. He comes here and poses as an expert in the sphere of this kind of removal. I do not know whether I have any more to say to him. He discussed section 19 of the Group Areas Act, and I have already replied to that.

He talked about places like Louis Trichardt.

The hon. member for Benoni spent some time discussing education and especially his experience in Benoni with the school boycott there. I want to tell him how much I appreciate the fact that he took the opportunity of giving some of the facts that are not commonly known about the school boycott amongst the Indian population. It has not been very serious. It has with one exception been most orderly. It seems to be ending very fast. I think it was more a case of youthful enthusiasm in a misguided moment under the influence of people who were not directly concerned with the education of the Indian people. [Interjections.] I got an unannounced visit a week ago from “concerned parents”—that is what they called themselves. They said they want to talk to me, but when they walked in I recognized one of them as a Catholic priest. Can he be a “concerned parent”? The other one was a man by the name of Dr. Couvadia. His children are not even at an Indian school. He managed to get them into a White school. Nevertheless, he comes to me as a “concerned parent” as member of a deputation to discuss the position of Indian schools. The others were university students. They were unmarried. Even if they were parents, they could not have children old enough to be at school, because they were still children themselves. That is the sort of people. Then the hon. members opposite laugh when I say that the pupils have been influenced by people who are not directly concerned with education.

Do you mean to say that a priest is not concerned with education?

Therefore I am grateful to the hon. member for Benoni for providing this information.

*The hon. member for Vryheid raised the question of Indian farmers. He conveyed his gratitude to the Minister of Agriculture, as I do, for the fact that Indian farmers are now recognized under the Agricultural Credit Act and are able to receive assistance, if necessary, in the same way as any other farming community. Then he raised the question of Indian sugar farmers in the drought-stricken areas of Zululand. I am grateful to him for doing that. I accompanied the Minister of Industries on a helicopter tour of those areas. I must agree with my colleague that it was extremely depressing to see what was happening there. I think that this is the first time, since the rainfall in those districts has been recorded, that a severe drought, a critical drought has been experienced in two successive years. Those people’s production has been destroyed, their capital investments in sugar plantations has virtually been destroyed and their prospects are extremely grim. The hon. member may as well inform the people concerned that the Minister in question, i.e. the Minister of Industries, the Minister of Labour and I as Minister of Indian Affairs, are going to meet on Monday to see what can be done to grant emergency aid there. So this matter is really receiving attention.

The hon. member for Mooi River also raised the question of the drought. He also discussed the increasing demand for land among the Indian farmers. This is an interesting phenomenon. It is attributable to their rising standard of living. It is also attributable to the diversification of their activities. Their standard of living is rising, and they, too, can now dream of becoming landowners in South Africa on a larger scale. The question of the allocation of land to people has since 1 April also fallen under my department, and we shall consider this matter as sympathetically as possible.

†The hon. member also spoke about veterinarians. I have already replied to that. Then he complained about the monumental procedure which has to be followed in the proclamation of more group areas. I have sympathy with his point of view. We are looking at that at the moment. Now that it all falls under one department, we are attempting to streamline the procedure and to make it more efficient. One of the first things which I hope will be done will be to amalgamate the Community Development Board and the Group Areas Board. That in itself will eliminate a great number of delays. I think I should also mention to him that we have been trying for the last few years when declaring group areas not only to declare an immediate group area, but to declare a group area with a hinterland which will make automatic development in the future possible. As a result, in the areas at Grassridge and Grasmere near Johannes burg we have about 60 000 stands in reserve for the future development of the Indian and Coloured communities there.

It seems to take longer in the smaller areas, in the small towns.

That is because it is sometimes more difficult in the smaller areas. There are the problems of schooling, parks, facilities and that type of thing. It is more difficult when it is a smaller area, but we shall try to streamline that as well.

*The hon. member for Umlazi furnished very interesting information on the diversification of the economic activities of the Indian community. I have stated before that when I was young Indians were virtually all engaged in three forms of livelihood: As workers on the sugar plantations, as waiters in hotels and as traders. The picture we heard today from the hon. member for Umlazi helps us to appreciate the tremendous progress which we are making with the education of these people. One of the finest things is that they have, after we began to encourage the Indians to become involved in secondary industries as well, invested R30 million in secondary industries during the first 10 years. During the second 10-year period it is going to be a larger amount, because now they also have an Industrial Development Corporation which is looking after their interests. I have also heard from the heads of the Sasol enterprise in the Eastern Transvaal that it would have been impossible to make such rapid progress if it had not been for the wonderful assistance they received from the skilled Indian and Coloured artisans who were able to enter the picture when there were no Whites to do the work. This is the picture in general, a picture of progress, a picture of diversification and, I am pleased to say, a picture of a small nation which is zealous and which wishes to help itself to get ahead in this life.

†I regret that I have to spend some time again on my friend, and I mean my friend, the hon. member for Sea Point. He is becoming a problem in this House because, in spite of good advice, he will persist in talking about things that he knows nothing about.

Carry on.

Yes, I shall carry on, and I immediately ask the question: Why does a man from Sea Point have to come and speak about a local matter in Johannesburg?

I spoke about community development.

The hon. member had nothing to say about Indian Affairs, so he spoke about Community Development. The hon. member raised the question of Page View, and I want to say to him at once that anybody who goes to Page View today will see an urban area, a suburb, a little more than 7 ha in extent, in which one can notice some houses that seem to be fairly decent houses, but that is after some 4 000 families have been rehoused from some of the most deplorable slums that I have ever seen. I knew the “fietas”. I lived in Johannesburg from 1935. It was wicked; it was filthy; it was literally stinking. It was not fit for human habitation; and having moved 4 000 families out of fewer than 5 000 families—only 800 families remain to be removed—much of the worst of that area has been destroyed, quite rightly too. It had to be destroyed, and I shall tell hon. members why. What remains now is the better type of house, but even in the better type of house, as the people move out and we take over, we find that in 25% of cases no toilet facilities ever existed. That was the sort of condition under which the people lived, even in the good houses. The hon. member for Sea Point did not go into one of those houses.

I did go into them.

Then you were taken to the good ones and not to the ones that I know.

You can always upgrade them.

He did not know what he was talking about. He said here that this property belonged to them. In fact, this land was mostly the property of the municipality of Johannesburg. They were built there with the permission of the Johannesburg city council on the one understanding that if they ever had to move for any reason, they would have no claim for compensation on the Johannesburg municipality. [Interjections.] However, the Johannesburg municipality, in co-operation with the Department of Community Development, decided that they should be compensated, and they are in fact being generously compensated for improvements they made on the understanding originally that they would have no claim to compensation. That hon. member could not possibly have known this, because if he had, he should be ashamed of having spoken here the way he did.

Did they not refuse the compensation?

They may possibly have done so, but I do not want to argue about that. Fact is that we are paying them compensation although we do not owe them any compensation. That is the fact. The hon. member then comes and asks me whether we will re-establish the Indian community in that area. Why can we not give them a decent area to live in, such as Page View? The trouble is that we have certain standards which we set for ourselves with regard to a decent suburb, a decent community, standards which hon. members on that side of the House do not have, because they believe that squatters’ camps are suitable for people to live in. That is a fact. If we were to change Page View back into a community and we wanted to give it one high school, that school would take up two-thirds of the 7,5 ha of which Page View consists.

The Whites are going to get it.

Page View is a White area, and if it is a White area, one can put them in schools nearby. One cannot do that with regard to the Indians, unless what they are asking me is to start a domino policy in the western suburbs of Johannesburg. We could put an Indian community there and then buy on and add on until half the central business district and half the residential district of Johannesburg is Indian. That is where we differ. It will not happen. But he did not suggest it. He did not know what he was talking about. Imagine a community with 5 000 people living on 7,5 ha of land, of which 6 ha, or 5 ha if the topography allows it, are required for one school, without any provision being made for parks or playing-fields or streets. How can one rehabilitate such a community? One has to break the area down and start from nothing again and use it for different purposes than it was used for in the past. I respect the hon. member for Sea Point and I want to respect him even more, but I beg him please to help me when it comes to taking part in debates with which I am concerned, to find out what the facts are and not to come and talk this utter balderdash I had to listen to today with regard to Page View. I shall make him an offer. He can pick up a telephone and ask me and I shall give him an answer. I shall not report it to the embassy either.

The hon. member also spoke about Lenasia. There is a measure of overcrowding in Lenasia. But we are at present building in Lenasia at a rate which means that 2 137 of the 2 770 dwelling-units for extensions 8 and 11 of Lenasia are already under construction and some are being completed. One of these days we shall begin with the erection of the remaining dwelling-units which can be accommodated there. We are also in the planning stage with schemes which will comprise 3 200 dwellings south of the Gatsrand area, and part of farm No. 18 of Roodepoort is being developed by a private Indian development company with our cooperation. The services are now being installed, and soon there will be another 700 homes available to the Indians.

With the resettlement of Page View the housing shortage for Indians in Johannesburg should finally be eliminated in two years’ time. If I think of what the situation was when I first became acquainted with it, I can only tell hon. members that even the PFP should be grateful and proud of such progress. They will not be, but they should be. Then the hon. member spoke to me about Tomsville, which he said was worse than Kinshasa and places like that. Parliamentary rules will not allow me to tell the hon. member what I think of a statement like that. I really think that it is shocking.

Have you seen them all?

No, but I have read extensively about them. I have read UN reports. I learnt that one could smell the slums in some of these cities from a distance of 30 to 40 miles. Does the hon. member want to compare Tomsville with a situation like that? Of course conditions in Tomsville are most unsatisfactory. Three or four years ago I had a look at Tomsville, and the next year an amount of R¼ million was allocated in order to improve conditions there and conditions have been improved there. However, in any community there must be accommodation for the very, very poor. The people who live in Tomsville pay as little as, I think, R1,50 per month for their two-roomed little houses. They do live under bad conditions, but it is infinitely better than the conditions in which they would live if one carried out the PFP’s policy and said the only answer was to let them live in squatter camps. [Interjections.] Tomsville is infinitely better than any squatter camp. I am not happy about conditions in Tomsville. We are working on plans to improve Tomsville further at great expense, to give them better toilet facilities—I am very unhappy about the toilet facilities there—and possibly to join two of those little houses together into one dwelling unit. This will change the situation completely. I think we are going to do this, because under the policy of the Government the standard of living of our Indian people on the Witwatersrand is improving so quickly that we will be able to look after the indigent and the near-indigent under our social welfare laws, so that it will not be necessary to have emergency housing like Tomsville for those people. That is my answer.

It has been an emergency for 17 years.

All I can do is to express once more my regret that a man of the intelligence and integrity of the hon. member for Sea Point should adopt this utterly reckless attitude in Parliament, by just getting hold of a thought or two, a prejudice or three, and then to rush into the House with no consideration for the true situation and to make allegation after allegation, charge after charge and accusation after accusation with no ground under his feet whatsoever. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to end the discussion on this aspect by saying that those hon. members are not concerned about the South that you and I love. I gather from their attitude in the House that they have come to the conclusion, and for once they are right, that they have no hope of defeating the Government at the polls; so they must now try to create an atmosphere in South Africa of distrust amongst the different communities.

That is nonsense.

They come to the House and deliberately exploit and exaggerate possible real and imaginary grievances of these people. They hope to create a situation of unrest in this country which will make proper government impossible and hope that they may gain some political advantage out of such a situation.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is it permissible for the hon. the Minister to imply that hon. members on this side of the House deliberately foment unrest in the country in order to bring about a change in Government?

How did the hon. the Minister express himself and what did he mean?

Mr. Chairman, I will tell you exactly. I said that if one judges by the actions of those hon. members, one comes to the conclusion that they believe they cannot beat this side of the House at an election. Therefore they are now exaggerating the grievances of the communities that are not represented in this House in the hope that a situation of unrest will arise in this country which will make it impossible for us to continue governing properly.

That is not allowed. [Interjections.]

I shall withdraw that.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Will you please give a ruling on whether the hon. the Minister is permitted to follow that line of argument?

Mr. Chairman, I have withdrawn it.

Order! Does the hon. the Minister mean that the official Opposition advocates violence?

No, Sir. I am very much aware that if we are not careful, we will be creating a situation in this country which will be characterized by unrest, unhappiness and strife. [Interjections.] It is done by people who recklessly exploit, exaggerate and stimulate a sense of aggrievedness amongst people in this country. I now want to appeal to those hon. members on that side of the House for heaven’s sake to look at what they are doing and to ask themselves whether their actions in this House may not lead to and encourage that sort of situation in South Africa.

I just want to say that as far as the Government, the Department of Indian Affairs and the Department of Community Development are concerned—and it was in the policy all the time—we shall continue, in the time God has given us, to do what we believe is just in the interests of all the people of this country. We shall strive to house the people of this land decently; we shall strive to create communities in this country in which people can live and develop and realize themselves within the framework of their own societies and their own ethnic kinship; we shall try to get away from discrimination that hurts and, above all, we shall try to give every sector of the South African community the type of education they need and deserve in order to enable them to make their full contribution to the welfare of South Africa and to be rewarded adequately for the contribution they make.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he will answer my specific question concerning Burgersdorp and Fordsburg in respect of residence and training, and the future of the Transvaal College of Education in Fordsburg?

Mr. Chairman, why does the hon. member ask me a question about the possibility of the Transvaal College of Education becoming a school in future?

It was one once upon a time.

Of course, it was one, but in the time he talked about we did not have the standards we maintain today. The Transvaal College of Education is situated in a densely populated area. It is bounded on four sides by streets which come right up against the building. There are no playing fields. In the past we have been struggling to persuade teachers to go there. They say that conditions are so unsatisfactory that they do not want to teach there. Yet the hon. member really wants me to reconvert it into a school after I have thanked God that I had seen the end of it as a school as it is totally unsuitable for that purpose.

Vote agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr. Speaker, subject to Standing Order No. 56, I move—

Mr. Speaker, in the course of the Second Reading debate of this Bill, the House had the opportunity to discuss at great length, and regrettably in some acrimonious detail, the various situations arising out of the report of the commission and the legislation which flows from it. We believe no particular purpose would be served by repeating the arguments or accusations. By and large the attitudes of both sides of this House have become abundantly clear in this matter. We continue to believe—and I say this very briefly—that there is a growing feeling in this House, as again evidenced in a document tabled this afternoon, that the need has arisen in our contemporary society to ensure that all races are fully consulted in all matters of constitutional, or even quasi constitutional growth, such as the reorganization of public holidays.

A commission can be a particularly suitable organ for such consultation to take place because, as it has rights and powers of subpoena, it can hear people of other races who do not ordinarily have an opportunity to express their views in this House.

For these reasons we regret that the Bill before the House has taken the form it has. It would have been a better Bill had there been fuller consultation with all groups who have an interest in this matter. The deed has been done and time will move on. The social, economic and political situation in South Africa will continue to move, and sooner or later there will, and must be, another opportunity to consider public holidays as they affect all races in this country. We hope on that occasion we shall reach agreement on legislation which will be more generally acceptable, and in the interests of all race groups in this country.

Mr. Speaker, we shall of course support the Third Reading. It is a pity that the hon. the Deputy Minister did not see his way clear to proposing an instruction so that the name in the relevant clause could be changed to “Heroes’ Day”. However, in due course there will again be an opportunity for this. Even though we have now drawn a new programme for holidays, it will not, of course, remain that way forever. I hope it will in fact be possible in future to do something that will eliminate all sectionalism.

Mr. Speaker, although I do not agree with the opinion of the hon. member for Constantia, he is at least entitled to his own opinion and I respect it. I do agree with him, though, in saying that we could unfortunately not reach unanimity on this matter and that we should consequently be content with that. As I said during the Second Reading reply the other day—and I am also saying this to the hon. member for Durban Central—I do not think that this will be the last word on holidays in this country. South Africa is not static; it changes. There are new things in the offing, and in future we shall, of course, have to look into these matters again after they have been properly investigated.

I am sorry that I cannot accede to the request by the hon. member for Durban Central, particularly since his party supports this legislation. We have a peculiar situation here, because the position is that the hon. member for Johannesburg North has made such a fervent plea for the retention of Kruger Day. [Interjections.] I was consequently in a very difficult position. A number of people requested that the name should be “Heroes’ Day”; indeed, I think the preponderance of evidence was to that effect. However, there was also very strong evidence in favour of the retention of the name “Kruger Day”. Then the hon. member for Johannesburg North came along and tipped the scale, because he created the impression that the PFP wanted the name Kruger Day. [Interjections.] That is true.

Do you want us to have a full Third Reading debate?

It is too late now. [Interjections.]

I do not wish to mislead the hon. member for Groote Schuur, but the fact is that the evidence indicates that the hon. member for Johannesburg North did say so; what is more, he put it in very strong terms in the House …

Kowie never said that.

The hon. member for Groote Schuur says the hon. member for Johannesburg North did not say so. The hon. member for Johannesburg North did indeed say so here. He made a plea for the retention of the three Afrikaner holidays, including Kruger Day.

And the name.

He made a very strong plea for the name. He did not support the hon. member for Durban Central. When the hon. member for Durban Central requested that the name “Kruger Day” be replaced by the name “Heroes’ Day”, he did not get the support of the hon. member for Johannesburg North. He was the only member of the PFP present at that stage. I feel just as badly as does the hon. member for Groote Schuur about the whole situation. [Interjections.] After all, I cannot help it that the hon. member for Johannesburg did not vote the way he talked. That is why I assumed that the commission had accepted the preponderance of evidence, including that of the hon. member for Johannesburg North, and had retained Kruger Day. Who am I, now? I did not serve on the commission and consequently I have to allow myself to be guided by circumstances. I thought that here was at least one point in respect of which the official Opposition was wholeheartedly in agreement with us. Why should we not make a little gesture of goodwill towards the official Opposition now and then, and let them have their way? Therefore, I am not in a difficult position. I am now having to tell the hon. member for Durban Central that I am taking sides against him in favour of the hon. member for Johannesburg North. [Interjections.]

Question agreed to (Official Opposition dissenting).

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Agreed to.