Mr. Chairman, the issue raised by the hon. member for Houghton is one which not only concerns her deeply, but also concerns every single hon. member of this House. It concerns the rights and privileges of every hon. member of this House. There is a principle involved and the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications is the man in the middle who is to be held responsible whenever mail is intercepted. In 1978 I received assurances from the then Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. When the Act was amended in 1972 we also received assurances. During this very session of Parliament we have also received assurances in this regard from the hon. the Deputy Minister of Defence. During yesterday’s debate, however, it appeared that the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications did not know what his powers were and did not know exactly how the Act functioned. In his speech yesterday, the hon. the Minister, replying to the hon. member for Houghton, said—

I want the hon. the Minister to tell me whether that is correct.

Yes.

Well, I challenge the correctness of this statement because what the hon. the Minister says here is that no other hon. Minister can approach the department in order to have mail intercepted. The hon. the Minister then goes further in an attempt to explain to the House his interpretation of the Act. If this is his interpretation of the Act, he does not know the Act, he does not know his responsibilities and he does not know his duties, because he says the following here in the House (Hansard, 19 March 1980)—

It is my submission that the hon. the Minister does not understand the meaning of section 118A of the Post Office Act. With the greatest respect, I submit that I can prove him wrong. He even went further and said that everything had to be channelled through his department, as the hon. member for Houghton had intimated. He did know how this had come about because he knew nothing about the opening of mail addressed to or by the hon. member for Houghton.

I believe the hon. the Minister’s attention must be drawn to section 118A of the Post Office Act. I have had a very close look at the Act again and I want to quote to the hon. the Minister section 118A (1)(a)—

In section 118A(3)(a) and (b) it is set out in detail what the duties of a functionary are. In other words, any hon. Minister who is a member of the State Security council, in terms of the Security Intelligence and State Security Council Act (Act No. 64 of 1972) has this power and is in fact a functionary in terms of section 118A of the Post Office Act. In terms of section 4 of the Security Intelligence and State Security Council Act, 1972, the Council consists of, among others, the Prime Minister who is the chairman of the Council, the senior Minister of the Republic, the Minister of Defence, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Police. In actual fact, the hon. the Minister is completely wrong when he says that no other hon. Minister can approach the department behind his back and grant authority to anyone for the interception of any communication by telephone, by mail or otherwise. The reason why I say the hon. the Minister is wrong in what he states is because section 118A(2)(a) clearly states—

Therefore I submit that the hon. the Minister does not understand what his functions are. What he says is completely wrong. We accept though that in this case neither he nor the Postmaster-General knew that the mail of the hon. member for Houghton was being intercepted. At this stage, however, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister a question. It is common cause that the mail of the hon. member for Houghton was being intercepted. That has never been denied in this House. That being so, I must ask by whom her mail was intercepted and on whose authority it was done. Which one of the authorities mentioned in the Act gave permission for this to be done? That is what we have to ascertain. We have already had a denial by the hon. the Minister himself and by the Postmaster-General. The hon. the Minister of Defence and the hon. the Minister of Justice and Police also deny this. That only leaves the previous Prime Minister and the hon. the Minister of Foreign Affairs. They are in a position to deny it or not. If there was another way in which this was done, and if it was not done in terms of section 118 A, how then was it done? I see it as the obligation and the duty of this hon. Minister to tell us, if he knows, how it was done. He should do that because it is important for the protection of all hon. members of Parliament and for the protection of the country as such. If he does not know, however, it is his duty to find out what he should know and to tell us in this House. If there are other ways of intercepting mail, it is his duty to find out about that as well. As a last reference to this subject, let me put a point to the hon. the Minister. Let us assume, for example, that the S.A. Airways carries mail—as it does—from South Africa to countries overseas, be it in the UK, Europe or America. When the plane lands in that specific country, let us also assume that Dons has a contact in the S.A. Airways enabling it to have a look at that mail—in other words to intercept it—as it arrives in that country and before it is handed over, by S.A. Airways, to that country’s postal authorities. Is that not perhaps a way in which Dons can intercept mail? If that is a way in which mail can be intercepted—I do not know if one can rule out that possibility—it is certainly well worth investigating. Let me put this aspect to the hon. the Minister for his attention so that he can clear it up and let us know where we stand on this issue. Those are the questions this hon. Minister has to answer.

There is another significant aspect I should like to deal with, and I am referring to the question of the SABC. I think I would rather leave that for the Third Reading debate, however, and try to confine myself to some of the matters that can be dealt with across the floor of the House in the Committee Stage itself.

The hon. the Minister has stated that the average tariff increases are 12,7%. Can the hon. the Minister, however, show us how he arrived at that figure of 12,7%? Let me just refer to the fact that the tariff increases on letters was 25%. that on newspapers 33%, that on registered mail 33⅓%, that on express delivery articles 33⅓%, that for local telephone calls 25%, that for telegrams 66⅔% and that for COD deliveries 150%. On those items alone the average is 52%. So how can the hon. the Minister arrive at a figure of 12,7%.

The hon. the Minister replied to my query about the Franzsen Commission by asking me whether I knew Franzsen. My reply is that I do not know Franzsen, but I am prepared to accept that Mr. Franzsen is a very brilliant man who makes very good recommendations; but that was not my argument.

On what grounds is your authority better than his?

It is not a question of better authority. I am asking a very simple question. Is a recommendation made eight years ago, in 1972, good enough for conditions prevailing in 1980 when the financial market has changed completely? At present the country is awash with money, whereas in 1972 we were hard-put to obtain loans. In fact, we had to go overseas to obtain loans and had to pay high rates of interest for loans. Therefore we had to seek ways and means of obtaining loans without having to pay high interest That is the argument.

The hon. the Minister also raised the question of the lowering of tariffs. In answer to my plea to lower some of the tariffs, he told me that in other countries the tariffs are far in excess of ours. I was not arguing, however, about whether our tariffs were higher or lower and, with respect, that is irrelevant. The argument I put to the hon. the Minister for the lowering of tariffs was based on the fact that it is common cause that the revenue of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications will far exceed the amount being budgeted for, as was the case last year. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, this afternoon the hon. member for Hillbrow dealt principally with a matter with which they still seem to be experiencing problems, despite the fact that a special debate has already been held on the matter and that a great deal of time was spent on debating the matter last night. I am referring to the question of the interception of post and bugging. However, the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, the previous Minister of this department as well as the Deputy Minister of National Security gave clear replies to that hon. member and his party. But that little party has no policy. They are nothing but a scrap-yard party, because they grow only as a result of old crocks that join them. After all, another old crock joined them yesterday. I think it is time for that party to explain clearly to us their policy on the Post Office budget, as well as their alternative policy on the SABC-TV which they criticized so vehemently last night. In contrast to the two Opposition parties’ negative approach and unfair criticism of the work of the SABC and our television service, I want to say from this side of the House that cognizance is being taken with appreciation of the important part being played by the SABC and our television service in the promotion and maintenance of South African culture, both White and non-White. The South African radio services as well as the South African television service offer ample opportunity to our local artists, for example, authors, actors, composers and singers. If we examine the 1979 television service programmes, we see that the programme contents consisted of, inter alia, the following: Drama 29%, documentary 11% and music 5% The television service is seeking to use as many local productions as possible and to increase the content of local productions.

The cultural function of the television service is constantly borne in mind in the planning and presentation of the programmes. Top quality programmes have been presented on the television service over the past year. One can call to mind programmes such as “Die Siel van die Mier”, “Van Gister en Eergister”, “Land of the Thirst King”, and “Wide Land”. It is interesting to note to what extent the television service is also creating opportunities for South African artists. In the case of the South African television service only, various dramas have been presented over the past years in which 147 Afrikaans actors appeared. In the case of English dramas 200 participated and 607 were involved in the dubbing of Afrikaans films. The number of locally produced presentations over the past year, primarily English and Afrikaans serials, was approximately 180.

In addition to that, two art programmes dealing with the fine arts and performing arts, are presented every week on the Afrikaans as well as the English programmes, viz. “Portfolio” and “Perspektief”. It was not only the drama section that received attention. Over the past year opportunities have been created for musicians and music lovers as well. The promotion of music in the cultural sphere, serious as well as light music, enjoyed the attention of the television service. A total of 150 South African soloists performed serious music on the television service and the radio services during the past year; 37 reasonably major works by South African composers were broadcast, 10 of which were commissioned by the SABC. A total of 600 artists performed in symphony concerts of serious as well as light music. Most of the SABC programmes were culturally orientated in the sense that to a large extent they reflected the achievements and living patterns of South Africans. One can also call to mind the high quality of work achieved by the National Symphony Orchestra of the SABC during the past year.

Another matter in respect of which the South African television service is playing a very important part, is the promotion of bilingualism. There are adult English-speaking people in South Africa who are specially taking Afrikaans lessons so that they can watch the Afrikaans programmes with their children. Besides the South African television service the radio service also provides abundant development of culture in the Afrikaans as well as the English programmes. In this way many radio dramas were performed in Afrikaans. Every year there is an average of 40 radio theatre and 26 little theatze productions. The number of actors appearing in these was approximately 230. In addition weekly programmes such as “In die Voorportaal” on performing and fine arts, and “Beeide en Boeke” in which Afrikaans books are discussed, are broadcast These programmes make a contribution to this aspect and promote knowledge of the cultural life. This is also the case with the annual book auction, by means of which knowledge of Afrikaans books is being promoted. In recent times 250 actors have participated in English radio dramas and 52 dramas have been produced in the course of the year, apart from the serials. In addition to that, there are also still weekly programmes such as “Comment” on the arts, “Talking of Books” on writers and literature, “University of the Air”, lectures on art and art subjects, as well as programmes such as “Radio Today” and “Audiomix”. The radio service not only serves a cultural function as far as English and Afrikaans programmes are concerned, but also makes a contribution in this regard to programmes for non-Whites. There is ample opportunity for discussions on Black people’s art in their programmes. So, for example, a total of 994 programmes were presented on the Black radio service. There were 183 radio plays, 48 serials, 112 documentary programmes, 198 legends and 453 praise-songs. These programmes were presented on seven different services. Furthermore the SABC also plays a part in preserving our culture. By means of the SABC’s transcription service, folk music of Whites and non-Whites and of Afrikaans as well as English-speaking people, is preserved for posterity.

Sharp criticism was levelled yesterday by Opposition parties, not so much at the programmes, as at the retiring chairman and the newly appointed chairman. But surely the board works according to a licence which it obtains in terms of the Radio Act which stipulates that the corporation may not broadcast anything blasphemous, improper, obscene, indecent or libellous, or anything which could possibly cause public unrest or civil agitation. Thus the board and officials of the SABC cannot broadcast what they want to. There are criteria according to which they have to work. Furthermore the board of the SABC consists of responsible people who manage the SABC on a business basis. In addition to that the department and programme heads are there to supervise and control what is being broadcast. The SABC’s terms of reference in terms of its statute, is to approach and deal with the interests of all the communities in this country in a balanced way in respect of education, information and entertainment.

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Alberton on the very neat contribution he made in respect of the SABC’s radio and television services. He made a very good contribution, particularly in regard to the contribution being made by SABC TV to South African culture. However, what I found very interesting was that the hon. member for Sandton made a great fuss in this House yesterday afternoon about SABC TV and the radio service. I was watching him. When the hon. member for Alberton was discussing the cultural contribution made by the radio and television services, he was talking to his Chief Whip. He was not listening to a word that was being said. That is exactly what that party and its members are like. They can kick up a political fuss about minor matters, but when it comes to fine and noble things being produced by the SABC’s radio and television services, they hold private conversations in this House. While the hon. member for Alberton discussed the fine cultural contribution being made by this organization, on which aspect I wish to agree with him, I want to come back to the practical side and discuss problems I am experiencing in this respect in my constituency. I want to say here that it is my privilege to represent a very dynamic and rapidly developing constituency in this House. However, growth and development does not always bring moonlight and roses. It also brings problems which have to be taken into account and for which solutions have to be found. With the improvement in the standard of living and the circumstances of people, to which must be added the phenomenal growth and increase in the number of people, it is found that public facilities become inadequate and that intolerable situations sometimes arise, situations which could at times lead to conflict, bitterness and frustration in our country with its diversity of peoples. Such situations should rather be avoided and eliminated. Such situations cannot always be resolved with fine words, fine arguments, humanitarianism or even by educating people. Sometimes practical solutions have to be found and implemented. I have said that we have a developing community in the northern Cape, and I want to furnish a few figures to prove this statement As far as mineral sales in this area are concerned, minerals to the value of R48 million were sold in 1960. By 1976 the sale of minerals yielded a return of R363 million, and at present the amount is far higher. In 1960 the average monthly employment figure for Blacks in the mining sector in the Kuruman district was 5 721. In 1976 the monthly employment figure rose to 10 971 and at present the figure is higher. The monthly employment of Blacks in the Posmasburg District was 5 721 in 1960 and 14 186 in 1976, and this number has continued to increase during the past three years. Thus hon. members can see that there has been a tremendous increase in the population of Black workers in this area. To this must be added the approximately 90 000 Tswanas who are living within their own fatherland in the region of Kuruman. Business facilities at Mothibistadt, situated within their fatherland, are completely inadequate. The small post office in this town is not only small and inefficient, but also quite inadequate. The result is that there is a daily influx of thousands of Blacks across the borders and others from the hostels at the mines, who do business in Kuruman, on the one hand to Kuruman’s benefit and on the other to its detriment. On certain days in particular Whites are being crowded out of their own town. There are many businesses in Kuruman and new ones are shooting up daily to meet the requirements of the buying power of these people. However, there is only one post office in Kuruman. Separate facilities were eliminated without local consultation and at present we are finding that people are jostling one another in the very limited space and consequently situations of friction are arising and feelings are being roused that are detrimental to sound ethnic relations. The Black people in particular who work at the mines come to Kuruman in groups and move through the town in groups. If one of them goes to the post office to purchase a postage stamp, all his friends accompany him and enter the building with him. They become noisy and act in an unedifying way and my personal experience has been that the post office staff have had to remonstrate with these people and ask them to leave the building. It has already happened that the post office has been so over crowded that the friendly and helpful postmaster, Mr. Bestbier, and his staff have had to fetch an old lady or gentleman from the queue and go and serve him or her in the postmaster’s office. White and Coloured pensioners have been robbed of their pensions in the vicinity of the Post Office.

The completion of the new post office and automatic exchange building, which is at present being built at Kuruman at an estimated cost of R720 000, could solve many of these problems by providing additional post office space. Since I have broached this subject, I want to convey my sincere gratitude to the hon. the Minister and his department for the new post office at Kuruman. It will contribute greatly to curbing the problems that have arisen there. I also want to invite the hon. the Minister and Mr. Rive to attend the proceedings when the beautiful new Post Office building, which is at present being built, is opened. However, until such time as the new building has been inaugurated and against the background I have just sketched, I should like to make certain requests.

In the first place I want to ask that an investigation be carried out into, and the implementation be requested of, positive measures to eliminate situations of friction and overcrowding in the existing post office at Kuruman. Perhaps an effort could be made, by means of negotiations with Bophuthatswana, to make available better facilities at the Mothibistadt Post Office in order to alleviate the pressure on the present post office at Kuruman. Another request I want to make to solve the situation is the construction of a separate post office for the people of Wrenchville. Wrenchville is a beautiful Coloured village approximately 5 km outside Kuruman. It has 3 000 inhabitants and its own churches. The town also has its own school, hotel, 11 businesses and other community facilities. The community deserves to have its own post office, inter alia, for the aged who have to draw their pensions there. At present the elderly Coloured people have to walk to the Kuruman Post Office to draw their pensions. It happens that they are then robbed along the way. I want to point out that this request for a separate post office was made by the management committee of Wrenchville, i.e. by the Coloureds themselves. [Interjections.] I should very much like to support these representations and make this request to the hon. the Minister today. I want to make this request to the hon. the Minister: a separate post office would be an indispensable part in the planning and development of separate towns for the Coloured and Black people. In my opinion this would eliminate problematical and friction-causing situations in smaller towns where at present only one post office is available for the larger White-Coloured-Black community as a whole. In this way we could create better relations among the various ethnic groups.

On this occasion I should also like to pay tribute to Mr. Bestbier, our Postmaster and his staff at Kuruman. During the past year, under very difficult circumstances and with the limited space they had at their disposal, they developed the post office to such an extent that it earned a revenue of R1,29 million during the past year. I hope and trust that the hon. the Minister will give expression to the requests I have made to him, not only by giving recognition to the post office staff who have rendered excellent services to a tremendously fast growing community, but by also enabling them, who have to render services to thousands of people, including our neighbours with whom we are and want to remain good neighbours, to render services in such a way that we do not offend one another.

Mr. Chairman, quite by chance I can just say from my own experience that the hon. member for Kuruman’s plea for better facilities in Mothistadt and Wrenchville is justified from a practical viewpoint and consequently I hope that the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications will give attention to it. There is a case to be made for it for the sake of the convenience of the residents alone.

I just want to come back briefly to a matter to which I referred yesterday. It concerns the question which was misunderstood completely by a good number of members on the opposite side, viz. the question of commentators who make a point of purprosely pronouncing English names … [Interjections] … incorrectly in order to give offence.

What amazes me, is that there were so many hon. members on the opposite side, from the hon. the Minister of Post and Telecommunications to the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, who appeared to defend such reprehensible behaviour. [Interjections.] I was talking about people who make a point of deliberately giving offence. The hon. members on the opposite side defended this. For instance, I was not talking about someone like Jan Spies or like Michael de Morgan who, even though he tries, can never pronounce the words “die Herstigte Nasionale Party”. I am not talking of those cases. Nor was I talking of names which could possibly be pronounced in two ways, like my own for instance. Nor was I speaking of difficult names, of tongue twisters. I was speaking about ordinary names like “Cathy”, which are pronounced “Cathee”. Now I want to ask the hon. the Minister a straightforward question and I should like an answer to it. My question to the hon. the Minister is simply: Does he approve of people who deliberately try to give offence in this way? This is what the matter is all about.

But prove that people do it.

But this is what it is all about. I did not talk about anything else; I only spoke about those who do it deliberately. Now the hon. the Minister says that I must prove that people do it deliberately. I invite the hon. the Minister to listen carefully to what is said during the year, and he will very soon realize for himself that this is in fact happening.

Now you are talking rubbish.

That hon. member, who has nothing to say about it, says that I am talking rubbish. The point at issue, is the establishment of better relations and it is in this spirit that I address this request to the hon. the Minister. It is in this spirit that I should like admonitions to come from that side too.

The hon. member for Berea made a reasonable request by asking that if there are members on the board of the SABC who belong to any secret organizations, they should resign from them for the sake of goodwill and unpartiality. And what does the hon. the Minister do? He accuses the hon. member of all sorts of things.

†Nowhere did the hon. member for Berea insult anybody. I now want to ask the hon. the Minister a straightforward question in this regard. Does he approve of members of the board belonging to secret organizations or not? We want a straightforward answer.

What is wrong with that?

We do not get straightforward answers, but I am being asked: What is wrong with that? It is not the duty of the hon. the Minister of Police to reply. I am asking the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications.

I do not want to get involved, but I must say that I am also intrigued by the obvious hedging of hon. Ministers here when it comes to such questions as the hon. member for Houghton has been putting to them concerning the interception of her mail. If I may give these hon. Ministers advice, I would say to them that they must be straightforward and say: “Yes, we have intercepted mail.” Then we could have a debate on the reasons why mail was intercepted. Let us rather have a debate on the reasons why the mail was intercepted instead of trying to deny things. I have been listening very carefully to these debates from the sideline and I can sense that with all the technical replies that we have been getting we shall be getting a Connie Mulder “reply” sooner or later, and that will be totally unnecessary.

In the limited time available to me, I should now like to return to the matter I have already raised, and that is the possibility and desirability of the broadcasting of sport on a Sunday afternoon. I have already stated that the refusal on so-called religious grounds is nothing but hypocrisy, because sporting news is in fact broadcast during the news broadcast on a Sunday. Perhaps I can go so far as to say that I am not advocating direct broadcasts, but they could at least broadcast from, say, 16h00 sporting events which have taken place on the Saturday. This will not lead to a desecration of Sunday. The argument is being used that broadcasts on a Saturday afternoon militate against young people participating in sport. People can participate in sport on a Saturday afternoon and they can watch sporting programmes on a Sunday.

Is that the standpoint of the SABC for Saturday afternoons?

I did not say that I am advocating the broadcasting of sporting events on a Sunday afternoon. The hon. the Minister must listen. I have said that there has been criticism about broadcasts on Saturdays because it is held that people are discouraged from actively participating in sport. In that way one can overcome this particular problem. We have been told that there is a high incidence of suicide amongst lonely people especially on Sunday afternoons. Even if the SABC does not want to broadcast sports events on Sundays, at least it can provide some other form of entertainment.

I wish to conclude by asking the hon. the Minister what his attitude is to the reasonable request by the Full Gospel Businessmen Fellowship International in respect of the establishment in South Africa of a Christian radio and television service. I believe this is something other countries are used to and that the time has come that we should also establish such a service.

Mr. Chairman, a few minutes ago I heard that it was my privilege to speak just after the hon. member for Durban Central. When I took my place here in the House as a new member, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that the hon. member came from Potchefstroom and that he used to be involved in education. I witnessed a number of attempts by him to participate in education debates. However, I was disappointed in this former resident of Potchefstroom who used to be involved in teaching and therefore ought to know that a class of children produces good and poor results and that one must also have appreciation for those things which one does not like. However, it shocks one to see how someone can vent his spleen to such an extent and be nothing but negative. I think that I should leave the hon. member for Durban Central at that and turn to the subject under discussion.

Something about the Post Office that we are not often aware of, is the fact that most of our branch offices are not accommodated in properties belonging to the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. In many cases, these branch offices are accommodated in rented buildings which have to be equipped as Post Offices. The staff has to manage with whatever they have at their disposal in that building. By way of example I want to refer to the small Post Office of Fonteinriet in Boksburg West This post office consists of a single room which the staff had to arrange in such a way as to make space for a counter and for post boxes. Furthermore, they also had to create space for the public and for the staff. The staff had to partition themselves off in that particular room. Air conditioning and lighting in that room are not what they should be and the facilities for human needs are not where one would wish them to be. Nevertheless, the staff of that post office accomplish work of a high quality. These people are not asking for carpets; they are simply asking for basic facilities to enable them to do their work.

I want to give the department a testimony in this House this afternoon. One Tuesday morning I wrote a letter here in the House to the hon. the Minister in which I brought this particular Post Office to his attention. Remember, it was Tuesday morning, and when I passed by my post box that same afternoon, I found this letter in it—

That weekend I went to my constituency. On Saturday morning I popped in to the post office to tell the staff that I had brought the problems of the office to the attention of the hon. the Minister; when the officials arrived, the staff were to tell them the following points. Then the postmistress asked me: “Sir, are they perhaps the people who were here on Thursday morning?” This testifies to a department that reacts immediately …

Hear, hear! Why are hon. members opposite not listening now? This is the type of service that is provided.

… and give attention to the necessities of a proper service at once.

In view of this, I am amazed when one has to listen to the type of tirade which we have had to listen to in recent times, the subject of which I have not yet been able to establish. I want to mention with a great deal of gratitude and appreciation the way in which the post office is managed on business principles, the way in which staff matters are dealt with and the way in which people provide excellent services under conditions which are far from ideal. For this, I express my sincere gratitude and congratulations to the department, its Minister and all its officials.

Mr. Chairman, I must apologize to the hon. member for Constantia because somehow I forgot to reply to him at the end of the Second Reading debate. I intend starting off immediately with a reply to him. The hon. member pleaded for a greater degree of freedom for producers of programmes to sell their productions to the SABC, and he cited the example of independent producers in countries like France and Canada.

And Germany.

Yes, he mentioned several others too. The hon. member unfortunately ignored two very important aspects. First of all the offerings of independent producers would not be accepted by any broadcasting organization if those programmes did not comply with their requirements as to content, quality, approach and a host of other requirements. Does the hon. member agree with me on this?

Yes.

They would also not accept such offerings if the programmes did not fit in with their broadcasting pattern. The hon. member also ignored the fact that the SABC, like the French, the Germans and the others, purchases the products of independent local producers and also those of the best producers in the countries mentioned, especially in France and Germany. I nevertheless appreciate the positive approach of the hon. member in the course of his speech.

*In the Committee Stage last night, the hon. member for Humansdorp was the first speaker to deal with television transmitting stations. I know that serious problems are being encountered in obtaining a good reception, particularly in the Gamtoos Valley in his constituency. In consequence of the speech by the hon. member, I wish to give the committee the background to the whole question of private relay stations that assist the SABC.

The transmitter construction programme of the SABC—I am referring here to their own transmitters—is such that television stations cannot be constructed everywhere at the same time. We have to accept that ours is a big country of vast distances. Consequently, we were unable to render the same service everywhere from the outset. There is also a dire shortage of trained staff. This is essentially the same problem as that with which the Post Office is faced. Furthermore, there are also problems with the delivery of spares and the availability of capital.

However, from the beginning of 1976 the interest in the television programmes of the SABC was so great that private transposer stations started going up like toadstools. Up to now, approximately 950 applications for the construction of private relay stations have reached the SABC. Approximately 100 of these stations had to be closed because they did not comply with SABC specifications, while approximately 50 are in the process of either being closed or approved, according to whether it can be ascertained whether or not the stations comply with the requirements. The important point is, however, that private relay stations have to comply with specifications that have been laid down, otherwise they could create disturbances as far as the reception of other people is concerned, and they could also cause disturbances to the signals of SABC transmitters. It is also necessary that there should be specifications with a view to the standardization of antennas used by viewers. These are things that are laid down by law. Surely we cannot allow chaos to develop in radio transmissions. It is my function to protect those people who have reception.

There is fine co-operation with regard to this matter, however. My predecessors have issued Press statements in this connection, and have appealed to people constructing private relay stations to report them, to apply for registration, and to construct them in accordance with specifications. The SABC itself, and also the Postmaster-General, have made certain appeals. In certain cases there was correspondence with some of these people. Nevertheless, there are various unlawful relay stations in operation that do not yet comply with the prescribed specifications. There are also a certain number of these relay stations for which no licence applications have yet been made.

The hon. member referred to a map in the annual report of the SABC on which Kareedouw, in his constituency, is indicated as a place where a SABC relay station has already been constructed. However, I wish to correct the hon. member in this respect. What is indicated on that map, is an FM transmitter, and not a television relay station. Delays have nevertheless occurred. There has also been correspondence with the hon. member, according to which that transmitter station should have been ready for service in March last year. As is the case with such an extensive programme, however, there were of course delays. I think 19 such stations were constructed during the course of last year. There were also delays in the delivery of spares, and what is more there were staff problems as well, which delayed the construction of the relay station in question.

Now I am also able to give the hon. member some good news, which is that the television relay station at Kareedouw will be put into operation on 1 April. I can assure the hon. member that this is in fact so, and that it is no April Fool trick.

†The hon. member for Umhlanga, the chief spokesman of the NRP on postal affairs, once again—and there is nothing wrong with it—raised several subjects. In the first instance I want to refer to the Durban North post office and the facilities there. As I indicated yesterday by way of interjection, I am quite prepared, when I visit Durban again, to have a personal look at the situation at that particular post office.

The hon. member also referred to Citizen Band radio. He suggested that we should take legal action against people who abuse the rules for the correct and proper use of CB radio. The problem is, however, that we have no legislation which regulates the use of CB radio. In the past—and I do it again now—we appealed to users of CB radios to put their own house in order. I do hope that the hon. member for Umhlanga and the hon. member for Berea will support me in this appeal.

Yes, we do.

We do support you.

I am delighted to state that apart from the support I received, in The Cape Times yesterday, from a responsible person, the chairman of the “good buddies” here in Cape Town, I also have the support of several other leading CB persons in the Transvaal. I appeal to these two hon. members now to support me in both my warning and my appeal that CB users should get their own house in order.

I do support you.

The hon. member for Umhlanga also asked for cheaper overnight telephone rates for the rural areas in the vicinity of Durban.

No, that was in respect of the Cape. The particular one to which I referred is in the Cape.

Oh, I thought the hon. member was referring to the rural area outside Durban.

No, the platteland in general.

The same thing, anyway.

It is the same thing, in any case.

This is Victoria West. There, I have identified it!

There still happen to be several members of Parliament representing the Cape area here in Parliament. That hon. member should stick to his own area. [Interjections.]

You do not have a platteland in Natal. Only we in the Transvaal have one.

My reply is that the Post Office already suffers heavy losses on farm lines. The operation of farm lines is not economical, and we already suffer heavy losses. The problem will be solved, however, even in these areas, at the moment those exchanges are being automated. In several small places in the Western Cape—at least I now speak of an area I know—the exchanges have been automated.

Mr. Chairman, I specifically made reference to the smaller exchanges. The one I was referring to here was Victoria West. The smaller exchange has no chance of ever becoming automated. Will they always have to pay the higher rates?

Is the hon. member talking about Victoria West?

It is near Victoria West. I had a letter from somebody, but I do not have the correspondence here. We are concerned about the small rural exchanges which obviously, for economic reasons, will never be automated.

All of them are geared for automation in the course of the next couple of years. I can point out places very much smaller than Victoria West which have already been automated.

The hon. member also spoke about the sound level of television commercials. Perhaps the hon. member could adopt another course by writing a letter of complaint to the advertiser concerned. If he were to do so, he would get a reaction, that is if the advertiser believes what the hon. member tells him. That makes sense. I mean, if members of the public were to complain about the sound level of a particular advert, it would not be worthwhile for the advertiser concerned to go on advertising that way on TV.

The hon. member also spoke about the same artists’ voices being made use of for dubbing. I agree with the hon. member. On certain occasions I have heard that myself. The SABC staff should be alert to the fact that one should not make use of the same voice in two consecutive productions on the same night. To that extent I agree with the hon. member.

It is as bad as having two Cabinet Ministers one after the other.

Well, we can put up two priests, one after the other.

Now you are talking!

That hon. member, however, will certainly not be one of them.

Why not?

I can inform the hon. member for Umhlanga that more than 600 different artists have been used in dubbing productions, and even more of them will be used in due course.

Haas Das is my favourite.

The hon. member also spoke about the inclusion of adverts in the same envelope in which one receives a reminder to renew one’s television licence. I think the hon. member also asked that question some time ago, and my reply was that this had been put out to tender. It was left open to anyone to tender. The board of the SABC has nevertheless undertaken to give attention to the attitudes of listeners about advertisements accompanying television licence renewal notices.

The hon. member also spoke about the possibility of putting two sound-tracks on the same TV film. There are great problems as far as this is concerned, especially because there are not sufficient frequencies available in South Africa. This technique is, of course, also limited only to certain programmes.

*We have already talked a great deal in private about the subject of dubbing. Perhaps I should tell the hon. member, if this would give him peace of mind, that the decision on what has to be dubbed into Afrikaans and what should be dubbed into English, is not taken arbitrarily or, as another hon. member alleged, wilfully. When members of staff are sent overseas to buy films for the Afrikaans and English services, the Afrikaans and English teams of the SABC go together. They look at all the material together and then decide which is best for the English and which is best for the Afrikaans programme. They do this in consultation with one another. They consider this matter together. There are no arbitrary decisions taken in this regard.

I come now to the hon. member for Kempton Park. He dealt with the telephone services on the Witwatersrand and asked for timely action so that problems should not arise again with long waiting lists, etc. I wish to tell the hon. member that the Post Office is thoroughly aware of the position that prevails there. On the Witwatersrand, in particular, the great problem is the rapidly increasing demand for services from the non-White areas as the income levels of these people improve. What is the first thing a person does when his level of income rises and his consumer patterns change accordingly? One thing he does, is to buy more meat. That has already been proved in the past. Such surveys have been carried out in the past. As far as services and facilities are concerned, the first thing such a person would want in such a case would be a telephone. Hence the vast increase in the demand for this service. Let me hasten to add that when services such as this are provided for Soweto and the other non-White areas to which I referred in my budget speech, it is not a matter of “handouts”. The Post Office performs its function of providing services from which it derives revenue by way of subscriptions and the number of calls. In this way the investment is redeemed in the long term. It is the task of the Post Office to provide everyone with services. By doing so I think we are also promoting good relations in the country, and making people happy. As far as Whites are concerned, the waiting list on the Witwatersrand has more or less stabilized at 9 000. Services are being provided, but then more people are added to the waiting list again. The position is therefore more or less stable there.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, who is not here now, pleaded for a new post office at Newton Park. Both he and the hon. member for Walmer praised the Post Office, but nevertheless voted against the budget. In spite of that I shall go and see for myself what things look like there, for the sake of the people in Port Elizabeth. However, I wish to be quite candid and tell the hon. member that I do not believe that the parking facilities for which he has pleaded, fall within the functions of the Post Office. In that respect the co-operation of the local authority has to be obtained. We shall go into the matter, but I think the local authority would have to assist with the parking situation.

We cannot have park-and-post facilities. That would be asking too much.

Yesterday the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central said he had made a little mistake and that it was not my predecessor who still owed him a reply last year, but the then Minister of National Education who has for three-quarters of a year now not been a member of the Cabinet any more but Administrator of the Transvaal. I shall have his representations as regards radio licences for civil pensioners who are on the same level as social pensioners looked into. I do not wish to promise anything, but I shall have the matter gone into and then let the hon. member know.

The hon. member for Vryheid made a very interesting contribution. He referred to the leading role, I would almost say, which the Post Office staff play in the rural areas, not only by means of the service they are rendering, but also on account of the high esteem in which they are held and their willingness to furnish people with advice in connection with Post Office and communication matters. I wish to thank him for his favourable views and for the fine compliment he paid the Post Office staff. I think that department is in this way making a contribution towards discouraging the depopulation of the rural areas by keeping people happy there. As the hon. member has also said, I have promised to come and open the new post office, and I am looking forward to the occasion. The hon. member also said that television meant a great deal to the people in the rural areas. The fondness for television has developed to such an extent that when people apply for particular positions in the rural areas, they first inquire whether there is television reception in that particular town. If they hear that it is not, they are hesitant to proceed with their application, and even withdraw it. One could therefore justifiably say that television has already become part of our way of life. In spite of the criticism—and now I am looking the hon. member for Umhlanga, in particular, in the eyes—which he and other hon. members expressed here yesterday, television has already become such an important part of our lives that people even make inquiries as to whether there is television reception before they apply for a position at a certain place. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Nigel made a plea for the provision of a post office building at Alrapark in his constituency to be expedited. That has already been approved in principle, and as he has said, with the help of the development corporation, an effort will also be made to make space available as soon as possible. I shall do everything possible on my part. When I visited the town in a previous capacity, as the hon. member knows, I was impressed by the excellent development taking place there, and it would be a pleasure for me if the department could help to establish a happy and contented community there. The hon. member also advocated that heavier penalties should be imposed for vandalism at post office buildings, telephone booths, etc. This is a matter which also causes the department concern, but of course it is an aspect which falls under the Department of Justice and I shall therefore discuss the matter with the hon. the Minister of Justice.

†Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Swellendam yesterday made a plea on behalf of English writers, authors and artists, and because he spoke in English, I am going to reply to him in the same language. The hon. member seems to imply that the SABC is biased in favour of English radio dramas written by non-South Africans. If I understood him correctly, he felt that the SABC should give preference to South African writers, but preferably not to staff members of the SABC. In this respect he almost made the same plea that was made by the hon. member for Constantia. The percentage of radio dramas written by South Africans is lower than the SABC would like it to be. This is still the case in spite of consistent and repeated campaigns, spread over many years, to stimulate the writing of English, and for that matter also Afrikaans, broadcasting material. This does not only apply to plays. In this regard the SABC has probably done more over the years than any other organization. The hon. member’s deduction from available figures are therefore not valid. Not only is preference given to South African writing, but it is actively encouraged and fostered also by aiding new writers to learn the norms and rules of writing for radio and television. Material prepared by staff members of the SABC should be seen as an almost desperate attempt to supplement the meagre supply.

Staff members do this in their own time and receive additional payment for the material which is accepted for broadcasting. There is therefore no question of protecting South African writers or the staff of the SABC against competition from writers from abroad. The converse is true, namely that any promising material is eagerly accepted. The hon. member also referred to page 63 of the annual report of the SABC, where the SABC reports on the success which it has achieved in its efforts to stimulate local writing. 480 scripts for a drama competition for television were received, something which is a major achievement. On page 67 of the report it is stated that—

I appreciate and have regard for the views of the hon. member, but I am convinced that he can rest assured that the SABC is doing all it can do in this regard.

*I am now coming to the matters which were raised here this afternoon. I shall say something later about the allegations made by the hon. member for Houghton about interception of mail. The hon. member for Hillbrow fought with me again about the recommendations of Dr. Franzsen. He said the recommendations were made eight years ago and were still in force. “Are they still valid?” he wanted to know. I say they are, because they were sound and well-considered recommendations. The hon. member could not furnish a single reason as to why we should abandon the principle of providing 50% of the capital expenditure of the Post Office ourselves. We try to adhere to that principle because it is a good one. By making more extensive use of loan funds, we would be shifting the burden of redemption and interest onto future generations—and I said this yesterday as well. We are increasingly shifting it onto them. We are now making good investments. I could mention this one fact to the hon. members, namely that with the installation of the first two electronic exchanges, which is going to be commenced this year, it has been calculated that the construction costs, calculated per telephone line, are going to R11,60 per line for these fully electronic exchanges, as against R52 per line in the present system. In other words, we are going to benefit in future by financing these developments from our own funds.

The hon. member also quarrelled with me about the percentage of last year’s tariff increases. I do not know why the hon. member is arguing backwards this year. He had an opportunity to do that last year. I wish to tell him, however, that in respect of certain things, the tariffs have not been increased at all and that also applies to the average. The rental of telephone lines, for example, remains the same. For that the percentage increase is therefore nil. What the average of 12,7% eventually amounts to is that a certain amount has been budgeted for. According to the calculation of expenditure at that juncture, and accordingly the estimates of revenue from tariffs, the increased expenditure was 12,7% on the average. I hope the hon. member grasps this now.

The hon. member for Alberton pointed out the significance of the Broadcasting Corporation in respect of the stimulation of culture, language, musical activities, in other words, of the beautiful and lasting things in life, for all our population groups. The hon. member also referred to the stimulation of bilingualism through the television service. What a fine complement that was. I think it is true. I know of people who have come and told me, if they were not bilingual, that they were specially taking language lessons to be able to follow the programmes on television. That is once again a demonstration to the hon. member for Umhlanga that things are not quite as bad as the picture he has painted.

The hon. member for Kuruman referred to overcrowding in post offices as a result of the vast development in his constituency. This is also happening at other places where the same sort of situation prevails, and it is a problem to which we are giving attention. We are giving attention to this when new post offices are built, or when constructions are altered, and with the stationing of staff, etc. I am now coming to the hon. member’s plea for a post office at Wrenschville. The hon. member has invited me to come and open the new post office there. I have been there before, when I opened another building there a few years ago.

It fits the pattern of the Post Office to meet the needs for postal services wherever there are viable communities that are forging ahead.

The hon. member for Durban Central made a few strange remarks here and has evidently had second thoughts about the comments he made yesterday. He made the statement here that I was prepared to defend reprehensible conduct. I do not know what the hon. member was referring to. What was indeed reprehensible, was the conduct of the hon. member yesterday. In my view, that was reprehensible. I wish to give him some advice in his absence. When a person makes such a blunder as the one he made yesterday—let me call it a “blunder”, if it was not deliberate then—and has the sense to discover that he has made a mistake, then I tell him: “Be a man, stand up and admit your mistake.” The hon. member asked me whether I approved of people deliberately offending others by pronouncing names in the way he referred to. I asked the hon. member to furnish me with proof that people were deliberately making mistakes in pronunciation with the object of giving offence. Surely that is something that cuts both ways, because after all, there is such a thing as bilingualism. I cannot understand the hon. member’s motive and I feel very much like addressing an invitation to him and also to other hon. members who complained that the SABC attacked people and then refused to allow them to state their case. I shall ask the SABC board to consider allowing the hon. member for Durban Central to appear live on television so that he can prove that there is wilfulness involved when people pronounce names incorrectly.

Is that a promise?

The hon. member was not listening to me. What I said was that I should request the SABC board to consider doing that and also to let the hon. member for Umhlanga appear on television with his unproven allegations against the SABC. He has to prove them.

The hon. member also asked me whether I approved of members of the SABC belonging to secret organizations. When I approached certain people and recommended them to the State President, I did not ask them what church and what organizations they belonged to. What is more, I have no intention of starting a witch-hunt.

With regard to his story about sport on Sundays, I wish to tell the hon. member that the SABC board is giving the necessary attention to the matter.

I wish to thank the hon. member for Brentwood sincerely for his splendid expression of appreciation. He paid tribute to a department that is performing its functions properly.

In the few remaining minutes I wish to come back to what the hon. member for Houghton said, and also the hon. member for Hillbrow, who went and did some homework in the meantime. All I have to say to these two hon. members, is that on 8 February I outlined the programming to hon. members, what the procedure was in terms of section 118A of the Postal Act. Furthermore, I told hon. members that I had made inquiries of the Postmaster-General and that he had reported to me that no request in respect of a member of Parliament had been received or complied with.

By you?

No, I said I asked the Postmaster-General—the Act was passed in 1972—and he gave me the assurance that there had been nothing of the kind. What more can I add? I have already told the hon. member that security organizations also have other ways of acquiring information. The hon. the Prime Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister of National Security discussed that. If the hon. member for Houghton still cannot understand this, and wishes to continue with her “White female” story and her “Buttonhole” story—which is now beginning to look like a button spider story to me—this is a poisonous thing. I do not know whether the hon. member realizes that It is not in my province, and therefore I cannot give the hon. member any further information on the matter. What I do wish to do for the hon. member …

Order! I regret that the time for the debate has now expired.

I wish to tell the hon. member that I shall come back to this during the Third Reading debate.

I shall stick around for that.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 75.

Clause agreed to.

Remaining Clauses and Title agreed to.

House Resumed:

Bill reported without amendment.

Third Reading

Mr. Speaker, subject to Standing Order No. 56, I move—

Mr. Speaker, we now get to the Third Reading of the Post Office Appropriation Bill. I think we can say that it has been a stimulating and interesting debate, perhaps more so because SATV has been brought into the debate. I am pleased to hear the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications will continue with the argument regarding the interception of letters. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can explain to us why he made the statement that the permission to intercept letters can only be channelled through the Postmaster-General when that statement was incorrect, because in terms of section 118A of the Post Office Act any hon. Minister who is on the State Security Council or designated by the council is a functionary.

Not any Minister.

Any Minister mentioned in section 118A is a functionary. So, in fact, permission can be given without the hon. the Minister or the Postmaster-General knowing anything about it. [Interjections.] The hon. the Minister can give his explanation just now.

As I indicated, there are many aspects of this budget to deal with. The one I must deal with now is that of the SABC. I want to say immediately that the statement made by the hon. member for Sandton with regard to the visit to Cape Town of Prof. Mouton, for which the hon. member was attacked by the hon. the Minister, was quite justifiably made. The statement was made on the basis of an article in the Sunday Express of 16 March 1980 under the title “New SABC Boss Mouton in Moves for Nat Unity.” The hon. member for Sandton interpreted this article in the same way as a million other readers of the Sunday Express did.

Do you accept my word?

Yes, I do accept the hon. the Minister’s word, but I only want to point out…

Then why do you not apologize?

Why apologize? A million people have read the article. [Interjections.]

Talk to the newspapers. We did not write the article.

The funny thing is that the denial has come via the hon. the Minister and the only appearance of a denial appearing in a newspaper appeared in Die Transvaler this morning in its report on the speech made by the hon. the Minister. Why has Prof. Mouton not denied the report in the Sunday Express ? I want to tell the hon. the Minister that I phoned the Sunday Express this morning, and up to lunchtime today no complaint had been made by Prof. Mouton or by anyone on his behalf regarding the article.

You are continuing your mischief.

I want to deal with the next point made by the hon. member for Sandton, namely the Broederbond involvement in SATV. Let me say quite clearly that whether we like it or not, the public of South Africa have got the impression that the SABC has got a Broederbond-Mafia aura about it.

Since when do you talk on behalf of the people of South Africa?

Are you aware that there is a programme in this connection on the radio this afternoon?

I was going to ask the hon. the Minister whether he would not do something like that. I am delighted to hear that. That is the very point I want to make. I want to submit that there is justification for me making that statement when one considers that in 1977 there were 49 members of the Broederbond among the SABC’s top officials.

No one has gainsaid that. I was pleased to hear what the hon. the Minister had to say. I want to make an appeal this afternoon. Let the SABC use both its media, the television and the radio, to refute this allegation and to remove this aura. I want to tell hon. members that the sooner this aura can be removed, the sooner we will restore, or move towards, a happier unity between all the different groups that live within South Africa. It lies within the power of the powerful media available to the SABC to do that.

It has also been alleged that the SABC, and its television service in particular, is mass-orientated. The hon. member for Rosettenville was kind enough to give details of the survey that was made by Rhodes University. I want to ask why it is necessary for Rhodes University or any other university to make surveys. It lies within the power of the SABC and the board itself to give particulars. I want to appeal to them to make a statement in the next report of the SABC—this year’s report is a very nice and glossy report. Since they have the time and the programmes and it concerns matters falling within their jurisdiction, let them make a statement concerning the amount of time devoted to Cabinet Ministers and the amount of time devoted to the respective parties in Parliament. Let the Board of Directors furnish this information and then we can argue about this matter next year in the debate on the Post Office budget.

I want to endorse the appeal made by the hon. member for Sandton, an appeal which represents this party’s view. The SABC has a new director and a new Minister and let us therefore start afresh. Let us wipe out the past, build up a good image and try to restore good relations.

That is a fresh start you are making right now.

Let us make a fresh start, wipe out the past and establish good and clean SABC television programmes which are unbiased and for which this House can have nothing but praise when in future we spend the extra hour discussing the affairs of the SABC-TV.

There are a few other matters I should like to raise. I think it will be appreciated if it is possible to have more scenic programmes and not so many head-and-shoulder interviews with people.

I also want to raise a point in regard to advertising. It has been pointed out that R76 million out of the R152 million has come from advertising. On page 13 of the report I read that “the demand for television advertising time continues unabated.” If that is the case, I think the board can afford to be choosy about its customers and its advertising. I therefore want to ask whether it is necessary to show liquor advertisements and whether they cannot be phased out.

I also want to make an appeal to the SABC on another matter, in respect of the radio service particularly. 2 April 1980 will be promoted as a “smokeless day” by a world campaign organized by the United Nations World Health Organization. The Government of South Africa is co-operating 100% with this. It has spent a great deal of money on this. I want to ask the hon. the Minister—and he can convey this to the board—whether he does not think that it is going to look rather strange if, while an appeal is made to all South Africans not to smoke on 2 April, the SABC radio service is going to advertise the sale of cigarettes.

Shocking!

I think that under the circumstances the hon. the Minister must give that day his sympathetic consideration. The SABC must rather join in the campaign to stop people in South Africa from smoking on 2 April. As they have a choice as far as advertising is concerned, I want to ask them to consider phasing out the advertising of cigarettes for the good and for the health of all South Africans.

I now come to my last request. The proposed TV-2 station is to be stationed at Broadcast House. There is an indication that of the R96 million, which is the estimated loss to be incurred over a period of five years, the Government will have to contribute something like R36 million. In the circumstances, I wonder whether it was really necessary to move the entire TV-2 complex to Broadcast House. Surely in the great and vast complex of the Auckland Park area there is accommodation available for that network. Could the TV-2 complex, with its Black staff and all the equipment, not have been accommodated at Auckland Park? Why was it necessary to come up with a completely new concept?

Let me conclude with a reference to radio generally. Obviously it is not all bad. There is a lot of good in many SABC radio and TV programmes which give a tremendous amount of joy and comfort to many people in South Africa. I do think that, generally speaking, there is appreciation for that fact. It is our duty, however, to put forward our criticisms, and the criticisms of all South Africans whose spokesmen we are, because they have conveyed their complaints to us. We, in turn, are duty bound to convey them to the hon. the Minister. I think that “Radio Today” is an outstanding programme. I think it is very informative and I listen to it without fail. This could, however, be extended to TV without too much additional cost being involved. I think that would be much appreciated.

I do not have very much time left I had not wanted this debate—but I am afraid there was nothing much we could do about it—to drift away from the subject of the postal and telecommunications matters which are the heart of this debate. Allow me therefore to touch upon a few of these matters in the few minutes I have left to speak.

I want to say at once that we support the hon. the Minister in his warning to CB radio good buddies. On page 105 of the report mention is made of complaints that have been received. CB radio transmissions have interfered with SABC-TV transmissions, and I have had people complaining to me that their radio programmes are also interrupted by CB transmissions. I do not think the main problem is the language that is used. The trouble is that when CB radios were introduced, 90% of the sets already in use in South Africa were illegal. Many of these illegal sets are still being used. They have 34 to 40 channels, which is in excess of the number of channels permitted. Their output wattage is also far in excess of that laid down as permissible. They are too powerful and therefore interfere with normal radio programmes. There is, however, a lot of good comradeship that can develop as a result of the use of CB radios, and I think we should support the principle in general.

Let me come back to the department for a moment and refer to the question of transport. I just want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that out of total transport costs of R30 million—I am going on last year’s figures—R25 million was incurred by the Post Office itself. In other words, nearly 83% of the expenses on transport were incurred in connection with postal services.

Let me also refer briefly to postal communications. Perhaps we should look for ways and means of reducing the huge losses that are incurred with regard to postal services. I might be sticking my neck out quite a bit here this afternoon, but obviously with the huge staff and the many vehicles involved in the delivery of letters, some serious attention should be given to the problems involved. Perhaps we could conduct a survey to see whether the idea I am proposing has any merit Let us, for example, take any suburb in a city and conduct a survey amongst the residents. One could ask the residents whether, if they had post-boxes made available to them at cheap rates, at a convenient place, they would not in fact prefer to use those post-boxes instead of having letters delivered to their homes. If one were to find that people are in favour of this idea, I think it would save the department a lot of money on transport in the long run. I think it would be a good idea if such a system could be phased in as extensively as possible.

I think it is done in Windhoek.

The hon. member tells me it is done in Windhoek, so I think there could be some merit in the idea. When it comes to the question of telephones, I think it would be remiss of me not to pay tribute to Mr. Rive and the hon. the Minister for the bold effort that has been made with Operation 2 in Soweto. I thank the hon. the Minister. I think it is something that will receive the very warm thanks of all the people involved. Soweto is a live and growing city. Hitherto telecommunication services there have been bad. This growing city has a council and at present a town-planning scheme is being developed. There is also extensive business activity developing, and I think we must give that every support, and we cannot do that unless we have proper telephone communications. Also, because hospitals, police stations and fire stations are generally situated far away from most residents, I think it is vital for the inhabitants to have the security of knowing that only a telephone separates them from the necessary emergency services.

I do not, however, only want to pay tribute to Mr. Rive. I also want to pay tribute to Dr. Boyce, who is retiring. I think he has done a great job in postal communications. He is a world expert in this field and I am delighted that his services will be retained on a consultative basis. That means he will be able to continue to assist the department and that he will still render valuable service.

I now want to end on perhaps a very happy note. It is also a softer note. I shall call it an appeal made in a Christmas spirit.

Happy Christmas, Alf. [Interjections.]

First I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what happens to all the thousands of letters received annually by the Post Office, addressed to Santa Claus. What happens to all those letters? [Interjections.] As far as I know they are interred.

No, they are intercepted. [Interjections.]

Yes, they are all being opened. I should like to know, however, whether it is not possible for the hon. the Minister to make arrangements for all those letters addressed to Santa Claus to be redirected to one particular body or organization that will be prepared to take care of it.

Redirect them to the PFP.

In this regard I can think, for instance, of the Philatelic Federation of Southern Africa This body, I am sure, will be quite happy if the Post Office will be kind enough to readdress all these letters and thus bring gladness and cheer to all those thousands of hopeful children who have written to Santa Claus and who are waiting for his reply. [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, I have been sitting here since yesterday and listening attentively to this debate. We have practically reached the end of it now. I believe it is our task now to try to determine what the effect of this budget is going to be in various respects. As I develop my argument, I shall also come back to the official Opposition, as well as to the two other Opposition parties.

Firstly, we must ask what influence this Post Office Budget is going to have on different sectors. Then we must also test hon. members of the Opposition, each one according to his own contribution to the debate. This budget can be seen as a forerunner to the main budget, which is going to be introduced on 26 March. We can deduce certain things from this, if we wish. This budget will have an influence on the Government sector in general. We can try to give attention to that. It will also have an influence on the private sector. I shall try to say more in this regard in particular at a later stage. I shall try to indicate what the influence of the Post Office budget will be on the private sector.

Of course, we are obliged to ask what contribution hon. members of the official Opposition have made to the debate in this regard. What influence does this budget have on John Citizen? The Post Office and radio affects everyone in this country, White, Black, Brown, Yellow or whatever. We must also take a look at that. Then we must also take note of the attitude of hon. members of the Opposition towards the Post Office itself.

However, before I come to the question of what contribution hon. members of the Opposition have made to this debate, there is something else to which I should like to refer first of all. It is a pleasure for me to thank the Post Office for this splendid edition of this year’s annual report, and to congratulate them on it. Other hon. members have referred to it too. However, I feel that much more emphasis can be placed on this important task which the Post Office and its employees have accomplished. Then I also want to say thank you very much to the SABC, and to congratulate them on their fine annual report too. It really is a pleasure to deal with these reports and to read them.

Now I want to refer to the Postmaster-General too while I am about it. The whole of South Africa knows what an asset Mr. Louis Rive, the Postmaster-General, is to us. His knowledge, ingenuity and inspiration are indispensable to the Post Office. It has not gone unnoticed in South Africa. For instance, he was appointed as computer man of the year for 1979. Now I should like to quote from Die Vaderland of 15 February 1980, from a report which appeared after Mr. Rive received the award. I quote—

We say thank you very much to Mr. Rive for this and we congratulate him. We also want to congratulate him on being the person that the Cabinet chose to help elucidate all the problems in Soweto. We on this side of the House wish him everything of the best for this task.

Speaking of important figures, I cannot help finding fault with the actions of some speakers yesterday. I say this very straightforwardly. Once again I want to mention the name of Dr. P. J. Meyer. He is an Afrikaner who is a giant in the sphere of South African radio and television. What he has done for the SABC and South Africa with the assistance of all the men that he had collected around him, could not have been surpassed. The world recognizes that our television service is one of the best. The hon. member for Umhlanga will have to concede this. We know what this great figure has done for South Africa and he deserves nothing but the highest tribute and praise.

Let us take a look at what the Opposition has done. I come back to the hon. member for Hillbrow. I want to congratulate the hon. member on his phenomenal improvement since last year. Last year he did not know the difference between a profit and a loss. His profit was his loss and his loss was his profit.

He is yet to discover what a loss is.

Last year he quoted something from the Franzsen Report which had absolutely nothing to do with what he was discussing. He was completely out of his depth. However, he managed much better this year. If he carries on in this way, I see hope for him in the future. I want to congratulate him and express the hope that he will continue to improve in this way.

I come back to the amendment that he moved yesterday. In the third leg of his amendment he asks that the Government “provide(s) an unbiased and objective radio and television service”. We have no problem with that Surely this is exactly what is being provided in South Africa. Consequently, he and I are on the same wavelength. What he is asking for, is being done. There is an excellent service in that regard.

In the fourth point of his amendment he says the Government must—

These people are so nervous about something in which the hon. member for Houghton was involved. All those points have been answered clearly and frankly, but I suspect something now. It seems to me as if those people are becoming nervous. Is there perhaps something which is being hidden away and which we do not yet know anything about? Are they afraid that something is going to be revealed? I am becoming suspicious. I want to state very clearly that my letters may be opened. They can listen in to my conversations whenever and wherever they like. I am not afraid; I am not hiding anything. But look how nervous the hon. members of the Opposition are! The hon. member for Hillbrow practically lost his head about this. What is hidden behind this? Why are they so nervous? This makes me suspicious.

As the first point in his amendment, the hon. member for Hillbrow states that there were excessive tariff increases. He opposed them during the course of his speech. But the tariff increases were announced as early as last year. Hon. members will recall that the then Minister said that the tariff increases would come into effect on 1 October. We were then asked what proof we had that they would not be implemented before the time. I then gave the assurance that this would not happen. The hon. member may go ahead and look up in Hansard which snide remarks he made to me when I was speaking on that day. I want him to swallow those remarks today. Why did the increases not come into effect on 1 October, but only on 1 February?

Was it your decision?

No, it was due to the sound Post Office and the hon. Minister, and I as speaker on this side said at the time that it would not come into effect any earlier. However, the hon. member is trying to criticize everything and to undo the excellent work of the Post Office. Why does he not tell the country which tariffs were not increased? There are a whole lot of them, and just as I did last year, I am going to spell them out now too. As far as postal services alone are concerned, the following tariffs were not increased: Insurance fees on parcels, inquiry fees on missing postal articles, receipts for local parcels or registered articles, demurrage on parcels, the registration of a newspaper—this amounts to R1,00 per year, but in my opinion it should be increased to R100.

That’s a good idea!

Other tariffs which were not increased, are those on post-box rental, private box fees, business reply service and free post service licensing fees. This is a whole series of tariffs that were not increased at all. Why do the Opposition remain silent about this? Is it to mislead the country or to misrepresent the facts? I do not think they want to do that, but why do they not come forward with the true facts? As far as money-transfer services are concerned, the commission on postal orders was not increased. Nor was there an increase in regard to telecommunications services. As the hon. the Minister said, no telephone rentals were increased. Nor were there any increases in regard to the following: Telex rentals, data rentals, local calls from call boxes, foreign telex calls, tariffs for leased circuits, both domestic and foreign, foreign telegram tariffs, installation fees at telephone exchanges, party and farm line services, all installation fees, and selection services. However, the hon. members remain silent on that. I think the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is correct We should simply allow all the hon. members of the Opposition to appear on television. The hon. the Minister can put a stainless steel ring through the nose of the hon. member for Sandton and the hon. member for Berea, who were such prize swaggerers and lead them across the stage.

No, spare them that.

Apart from a few speakers on the opposite side who did in fact convey their gratitude to the Post Office—I am pleased that the hon. member for Hillbrow did so properly this afternoon—they did not express any constructive criticism at all in regard to the Post Office. Constructive criticism from them was as scarce as hen’s teeth.

The hon. member for Umhlanga said that we must not lose trained staff. We agree that it is the policy and the duty of the Government to keep them in their employ. But whose fault is it that we lose people? Is it the fault of the NP, the Government or the Cabinet? In 1978-’79 the Post Office lost 15 037 people. This is 20,3%. The hon. the Minister indicated in his speech that only 8 987 or 12% have been lost this year. Now who is losing most? The Post Office has lost 12% of its workers, but the NRP has in fact lost 20% of their members within six months. Than they have also lost people outside too. Next thing, they are going to lose their deposits.

I bet they will lose more members next month.

Why are there resignations? Hon. members must remember that there are many women on the clerical staff. They marry. Some of them start families. Their husbands are transferred. All sorts of things happen to them. As far as the technical division is concerned, we do in fact lose people.

I want to come back to the hon. member for Hillbrow. He said that we should not have any tariff increases, but that we should negotiate loans. What is the result of that policy going to be? I want to tell the hon. member that the Post Office has much better experts than he or I can ever hope to be. Those experts have decided on the 50-50 financing policy. The hon. the Minister has also spelled out clearly once again that capital works are financed on a 50-50 basis. However, the hon. member alleges that we should negotiate loans for this purpose. Does he include current expenditure or simply capital works? Does he know the difference between the two? When he says that we must negotiate loans, does he mean that we should also use loans to finance current expenditure? Now he is dead quiet. If we were to prod him with a stick, he would not even fall over. One cannot finance current expenditure by means of loans. I assume they accept that from me. As regards the capital expenditure, one cannot simply negotiate loans to finance all capital expenditure. The 50-50 basis is the correct one. The lifespan of capital assets is sometimes very short. Sometimes it is five, six or seven years. That is why the burden cannot be passed on to a future generation. The Post Office has loans amounting to a total of R236 million. Surely the burden of interest on this would have to be high. An amount of R120 million has been included in the expenditure of R961 in this budget for the purpose of paying interest. Consequently, 13% is being paid in interest alone. I do not know whether the hon. member will agree with me, but paying 13% of the expenditure on interest, is a lot of money. He will admit it. We agree on that. If one has to make even more loans, the burden of interest will surely become tremendously high. We simply cannot do this. I hope that in future we are not going to argue further about this ridiculous matter year after year. We must forget it. This is the policy, it has been worked out and it is correct. I want to tell the hon. the Minister and the department that they must carry on on this 50-50 basis. We are in the fortunate position of 56% of this year’s financing coming from Post Office funds and 44% from loans. This is in respect of capital improvements and expenditure. However, hon. members must bear in mind that we are a few years behind because we did not have the 50-50 relationship. I am very pleased that we can catch up in this way.

The budget showed us that certain aspects stood out above all others and these are the efficiency of the department and its staff, the thorough planning, the financial discipline and the loyal service of well motivated people. These factors are clear from the budget, but hon. members of the Opposition do not really notice them. Why are the officials motivated to such an extent? The reason is that the department sees to it that the staff receive decent salaries. The hon. member for Umhlanga wanted to know what percentage increase is going to be granted to the officials. If he had looked at the budget, he would have seen that the salaries this year amount to R300 300 000 as against the R230 million of last year. The salary adjustment grant of R29 million of last year has not been taken into account here. Surely the hon. member can see that it is a high percentage.

Read my speech.

I want to ask the hon. member what his motive was in obtaining the percentage increase? His motive was to see where he could spit venom in an effort to play one department off against the other. The bonus which is being granted this year, housing subsidies, pension funds, medical aid and training of staff are all factors contributing towards the officials of the department being motivated to such an extent that they decided of their own accord to work two extra hours per week without extra remuneration. Because the department gives their workers such good training, the workers stay with the department.

Before I conclude, I should like to address a few requests to the hon. the Minister and his department. I think that special attention should be given in the training of non-White staff so that all the different non-White population groups, i.e. Coloureds, Indians, Tswanas, Zulus, Xhosas, etc., can receive training so that each one of these trained corps can serve their own people in their own national State. This is already being done, but I want to emphasize it and ask that it may receive special attention.

I want to address a further request to the hon. the Minister. We in South Africa are in the fortunate position that the private sector co-operates very closely with the public sector. The Post Office puts a tremendous amount of work out on tender. I therefore want to ask that whenever tenders are given to the private sector to provide goods and equipment to the Post Office, preference should be given and a more favourable price should be granted to people who can prove that they provide better training and accommodation to their own employees and continue to do so. If this is done, it will prevent technicians from being enticed away. The private sector will see to it that their own technical staff are properly trained and further problems will be prevented in this way.

My third request deals with the honour system which has been introduced due to insufficient payment of postage on postal articles. This was an excellent idea which the Post Office has introduced for the public. However, I am hurt that the public have not responded to it We could not have introduced a better system for bringing out the honesty of our nation, that I think the public is not yet completely clear as to how the system works. I therefore want to ask that it should not be summarily abolished and that once again it should be spelled out clearly for these people on radio and television. After that, the system must remain in use for those who do in fact pay and send in their postage, but there must be an extra fine for those who fail to do so.

There were a number of other points that I should have liked to raise, but 20 minutes is a very short time. Therefore, in conclusion I just want to say that the Post Office is doing a tremendous amount to stimulate the economy in South Africa. The hon. the Minister has already told us that we have our own South African telecommunications industry and that 90% of the equipment is provided by these people. Not only does the Post Office provide employment to its own people; it also provides work throughout the whole of South Africa in respect of its capital programme. If we look at this list and see how many capital works there actually are, buildings etc. from Cape Town to the Limpopo and if we look at the building industry which has been in recession for a few years, we notice how many people are getting ahead in the building industry. I am referring to the brick industry, the timber industry, the cement industry, the steel industry, the furniture industry etc. That is why, on behalf of the private sector, we want to say thank you very much to the Post Office for the initiative that they are taking, for the service that they are doing and for the work which is being allocated to the private sector. There are many employees in these different industries and all of them are picking the fruits of a good budget.

I want to conclude with that. I say thank you to the hon. the Minister, the SABC, the Post Office and all the officials for a brilliant year. We look forward to the following year being just as successful.

Mr. Speaker, I wondered when the hon. member for Sunnyside would make an appearance and, of course, he indicated that he would this afternoon by wearing a frangipane in his buttonhole. That is the sweetest thing about him today. His speech was the usual diatribe we have grown accustomed to over the years. When the hon. member suggests that I made some reference to the present incumbent of the post of chairman of the board of the SABC, I want to say that he is wrong because I did not. However, I do agree with him that Dr. Meyer has indeed been, as he said, “’n reus in radio en TV”, and I want to say that there is another Afrikaner who was equally a giant in radio in South African history, and that was Gideon Roos. I pay my respects to Gideon Roos, too, this afternoon.

I regret that I cannot accept the hon. the Minister’s explanation for the increased backlog in telephones. The SABC’s “Parliamentary Report” this morning stated that the hon. the Minister had given the increasing number of applications for telephones in Black areas as the reason for the current situation. That is not the case. I demonstrated this in my Second Reading speech and I said there that applications outstanding in Black areas amounted to 15 800.

No, that is only for Soweto. You have it all wrong.

All right, it is only for Soweto. Is the hon. the Minister then going to tell me that all of the 32 000 applications that are outstanding are for Blacks?

Altogether 99 000 are outstanding.

Yes, but how much of the increase from 6 000 to 32 000 is for Blacks? This is why I cannot accept the hon. the Minister’s explanation. I am sorry, but I cannot accept it My charge to the hon. the Minister is that there is a lack of planning that has resulted in the situation in which we now find ourselves, where the backlog has been increased from 6 000 to 32 000.

No, once again, the 6 000 applied to Soweto.

Nonetheless the backlog has been increased from 6 000 last year to 32 000 this year. An examination of the hon. the Minister’s speeches in this regard and of the report will show this. The increase in the backlog has gone from 6 000, as reported at the end of March last year, to 32 000 this year, making for a total of 67 000 at the end of March last year which has risen to 99 000 as at the end of March this year. This is so whichever way one looks at it Proper planning will ensure that supply keeps pace with demand. Proper planning will in fact ensure that supply will ultimately overtake demand. I also believe that in the planning priority must be given to other Black areas, and not just to Soweto.

But did I not mention that?

The hon. the Minister will have a chance to reply. I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister what is being done for Indian and Coloured areas. What is being done for the Indian areas around Durban? What is being done for the Coloured areas here in Cape Town? We have heard a lot about Soweto. Let us hear about the other areas.

Did the hon. member hear me mention Mitchells Plain, Laudium, Eersterus and the others?

Not one of those is in Durban. I now come to another point, and that is that quite a number of country exchanges are being converted to automatic exchanges. This results in the efficiency of such an exchange, in the months and even the years before its conversion, being severely impaired due to staff resignations. One can readily understand this, because the staff feel insecure and because they know that they are going to lose their jobs when the exchange becomes automated, and so they tend to fade away and find jobs elsewhere. As an example, I can quote the Howick exchange, which has just been automated in the last week or so, as well as the Stanger exchange which is in my constituency. Both these exchanges have suffered seriously because of a lack of personnel to run them in the period leading up to their becoming automatic.

I believe that urgent attention should be given to the establishment of a mobile crew of operators who would be prepared to move from place to place in order to meet the needs of these situations as and when they arise. I know that they will have to be a crew who will be prepared to move around the country, but I think that they could probably be got together and that this will definitely relieve a situation that we find is snowballing at exchanges that are being converted to automatic exchanges.

My suggestion with regard to parallel audio-channels for television has been labelled as an attack on bilingualism. That is not the case. That is pure nonsense. It is a sincere attempt to give everybody the best of both worlds. I want to emphasize that I am not suggesting this for all programmes. I should like the hon. the Minister to please understand that. I am not including sports programmes, but I am including documentaries and that type of programme. We have a large number of people in this country who do not understand both official languages, and it is for them that I am making this appeal, and I will not accept the excuse that there are no FM-channels, because there are FM-channels. The Frequency Modulation Band is a band that is capable of taking any number of channels and what we are aiming to do is to try to improve the service. That is what we are aiming to do, and we are doing this in the spirit of, we hope, a little constructive suggestion. I agree with the hon. the Minister that television has become a way of life in South Africa, but we should just like to see improvements. We shall therefore constantly work towards that.

I feel that we have come to the end of this debate, and I want to express a few words of appreciation, from these benches, to the executives and the staff of the Post Office. I started something when I got to my bench this afternoon and asked my bench-mate how many post offices he had in his constituency. He immediately sent for the postal code book to count them, and when he left me just now he had counted up to 30 and had still not worked through the alphabet. I told him very proudly that I have 23 post offices in my constituency. I wonder how many hon. members in this House know how many post offices they have in their constituencies. I shall ask the hon. the Minister how many he has in his constituency.

Three.

I beat him by 20. I believe that every hon. member of this House should know how many post offices he has in his constituency. [Interjections.] I think that they should know because they should be aware of the post offices they have in their constituencies. I visit the post offices in my constituency as often as possible, and I want to say that I have never yet been met with anything other than courtesy at all times. I have had nothing but courtesy from the servants of the Post Office who work in the post offices throughout my constituency. Neither do I have any reason to believe that this does not prevail throughout South Africa. I regularly deal with another post office that I can hold up to all hon. members as an example of the truth of what I am saying, and I am referring to what I call post office 8007, the post office that simply appears in the postal code book as “Parliament”. It is the post office in this building. I am sure that everybody will agree that the attitude and courtesy of Mr. Sproule, and the pleasantries one can exchange with that worthy gentleman, do us all a great deal of good.

Take a page from his book.

This staff attitude filters down from the top. So credit must be given to top management, not only at provincial and regional levels, but also at the level of the Postmaster-General’s office. To all those officials I give top marks. We in these benches wish to convey our sincere good wishes to Dr. Charles Boyce and to Mr. Theron. We want to wish them well and to offer them our heartfelt thanks for a job well done. Our best wishes also go out to Mr. Louis Rive, the Postmaster-General, who is today doing a sterling job for our country, not only in the Post Office, but also in Soweto. We appreciate the job he is doing.

In 1979 I was a privileged visitor to Siemens in Berlin. I also visited Berne, the home of the International Postal Union. I want to say that both these cities had just been visited by the Postmaster-General and the then Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. It would take me a long time to tell this House of the esteem in which our Postmaster-General is held overseas. He is held in extremely high regard internationally. I want to pay him a sincere tribute today as a man who serves his country well, both at home and abroad.

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to speak at the end of this debate. We have had two days of interesting debate.

I just want to say to the hon. member for Umhlanga that we on this side of the House associate ourselves with what he had to say about the late Dr. Gideon Roos. We are at least magnanimous enough, if I may put it that way, to pay tribute to and express thanks and appreciation towards anyone who has done something or meant something for South Africa, whoever he may be. Unfortunately one cannot say the same of certain hon. members on that side of the House. When one is conducting a debate on a Post Office budget, one does expect that such a debate, which deals with a budget, should be linked to finance. However we have not had a single responsible word concerning finance from that side of the House.

That is untrue.

The hon. member for Hillbrow says that that is untrue. He juggled with figures yesterday and referred to phenomenal percentages with regard to escalation of costs etc., but what did he achieve? He achieved nothing. It is very clear to us that there is a lack of financial knowledge on that side of the House. Therefore they saw fit to drag in an Afrikaans organization here and bandy its name across the floor of this House, instead of conducting a discussion about a Post Office budget, a service organization which provides a phenomenal service for South Africa and the rest of the world. I want to say to those hon. members that they should rather confine themselves to the Moedersbond and the Kinderkrans, because they may do better then.

There have also been complaints about the broadcasting time which members of the Opposition are not granted on television. When I look at today’s Cape Times, particularly the pen sketches in the “Assembly” column, I see sketches of the hon. members for Hillbrow, Sandton and Umhlanga Rocks. [Interjections.] I must apologize to the hon. member for Umhlanga for having linked his intelligence to the name of his constituency. One cannot really blame the TV service if they show pen sketches or people’s faces on TV. [Interjections.]

There will be one of you tomorrow, so be careful.

Wait a moment. I want to say to the hon. member that he will have to bring the Censor Board into the debate as well, then, because the Censor Board will censor Pinocchio’s face and put hon. members’ faces in its place because that will give the children more pleasure. [Interjections.] Moreover, the hon. member for Durban Central—I am sorry he is not present this afternoon—said that the radio and television service deliberately mispronounced surnames and names of people. Surely we are dealing here with adult people. Does the Opposition think for one moment that a newsreader, or whoever it may be, would deliberately mispronounce a surname? How many times is my surname not mispronounced in Afrikaans? I am “Ballot”, but the hon. member for Sandton says I am “Mr. Ballit”.

You should be “Mr. Ballet”.

I want to say to the hon. member that I am not the thinnest member in the House. Sometimes when I hear “Ballit” in English I am reminded of the ballot box, but I do not take exception to that. I am adult enough to accept that.

To come back to the budget I just want to say to the hon. members that they must bear in mind that the Post Office is a service organization which assists a number of other departments and that this service organization—I am referring to it as a service organization deliberately—needs the help and assistance not only of the public at large but also of the hon. members of the Opposition. Hon. members must bear in mind that the function of the Post Office in any country in the world is to bring about effective communication. Through effective communication there is growth in the economy of a country. The more effective the communication, the more advantageous it is as far as the profit motive is concerned.

The Post Office, the Postmaster-General, all his staff, the entire structure right down to the humble messenger in his uniform, comply with these requirements. When one speaks in the Post Office debate, it is not to the Postmaster-General alone that one pays tribute, but also to a man who walks from street to street and from gate to gate to deliver a letter. I take my hat off to these men. In the course of the debate conducted yesterday and today, no tribute was paid by the Opposition to this kind of person. It is clear to me that this kind of person means nothing to the Opposition. The poor, simple person is not what the Opposition is interested in.

We must go further, and, taking a closer look at the budget, I say to the hon. members that the budget is well-considered, justified and reasonable. It is fair and reasonable, taking into account inflation and the rising costs which we encounter every day. I believe that by means of this budget we are making provision in the Post Office for the most modern electronic equipment for the improvement of the service.

The word “communication” is the key word of the future. We are living in a particularly small world, so small that when one speaks here, what one says can be transmitted throughout the world within a few moments. Through communication the world is becoming smaller.

Ask Colin.

Fortunately our telecommunication service is keeping abreast of new developments. Today we in South Africa, particularly in the light of the budget, are in an exceptionally privileged position in that we may be able to say to the world within a year or two that they can come and learn from us; we have taken the lead. However, there are a number of other matters which one must consider. Here we ought also to pay tribute to the Post Office in respect of this newsletter, Telenews, which is despatched monthly or periodically together with our telephone accounts. I wonder how many members of the public ever read this newsletter. I find the following item in the latest edition of Telenews particularly illuminating. Under the heading: “Telephonists for Private Branch Exchanges” we read the following—

It is a pity that it would be inappropriate for the Post Office to offer a special course to the Opposition too. However, I believe that the businessman in South Africa must make greater use of this service. It is particularly frustrating when one puts a call through to a business undertaking and the telephone rings and rings without anyone answering it. I believe that a finishing course could mean a great deal for South Africa, and a lot of money and time could be saved too.

Then, too, there is a matter which I just wish to touch on briefly. My time has almost expired. The Post Office offers several investment opportunities. As regards investment opportunities and potential I have no intention of interfering with other financial institutions in South Africa, such as banks and building societies. That is by no means my intention. However, I believe that this kind of newsletter should be distributed more widely in order to inform the public about the investment possibilities offered by the Post Office, particularly in so far as savings clubs at schools are concerned. There is an old saying which goes: “The inculcation of a habit is the origin of a tradition.” At the moment there are approximately 1 920 savings clubs in South Africa I am concerned about the fact that the number of savings clubs is steadily dwindling, particularly as far as primary schools are concerned. I believe that it is the duty of every school principal—and I also believe that the Post Office should give positive attention to this—to make it worthwhile to teach children to save money from an early age. I am not really talking about the big investor. I am referring to the schoolchild who will count every cent in the interests of the economy of South Africa.

With these words it is a privilege for me to support the Third Reading of this exceptionally good Appropriation Bill.

Mr. Speaker, we now come to the end of this debate, and while I am waiting for the return to the House of the hon. member for Houghton—because I promised her that I would deal with the subject she raised—I should like to take the opportunity to convey my sincere thanks to those hon. members who spoke in such positive terms. The hon. member for Overvaal, for example, made a fine contribution. The hon. member for Sunnyside gave the hon. member for Hillbrow a lecture. I hope that the hon. member for Hillbrow derived a little financial knowledge from it. [Interjections] I shall come back to every hon. member personally at a later stage. However, I should like to say to the hon. member for Overvaal that he made a fine plea for our school savings service. This is one of the finest projects in our schools. I had the privilege of handing over the trophy for the countrywide savings service competition at the Orkney Primary School in October last year—it is in the constituency of the hon. member for Stilfontein but borders on the constituency of the hon. member for Overvaal. Incidentally, it was the fourth consecutive year that that school had won the trophy. What a fine achievement! Those are inspired young people who have learnt to save and to build.

I should now like to come back to the hon. member for Houghton and the hon. member for Hillbrow. In spite of all the mutual recriminations and reproaches, I regret that I can say nothing more than I said on 8 February. I have already stated the procedure clearly as it stands in terms of the Act in question. I had to do so again yesterday. I think it was the hon. member for Hillbrow who raised the matter again this afternoon, and I listened to him carefully. I may just have used one word incorrectly when I said that another Minister could also enter the picture in terms of the Act, a member of the State Security Council. However I used the English word “request”. It is not a request. What I really meant was “direct”. That is how it is stated in the Act. But the same procedure still applies because then a functionary has to do it, and the functionary is the person in whom the powers are vested by me.

No, it can be done without your knowledge.

I now want to put this matter on record properly. Hon. members must try to understand that I and my department do not have control of the files of a security body. Surely I do not have control over that. I know nothing at all about it. Surely I do not know how they get hold of their documents and what people do. Accordingly I would not know if they had acted in terms of these directives.

Are you not concerned about it?

Oh, really, Mr. Speaker!

Order! The hon. the Minister may proceed.

I should like to indicate for the edification of the hon. member and the House what the legal position is according to the State Law Adviser. I am now going to quote it in full—

1. (1) Enige funksionaris kan die onder-skepping van ’n bepaalde posstuk of van al die posstukke gerig aan, of afkomstig van, ’n bepaalde persoon oor ’n tydperk wat hy spesifiseer, gelas.

The functionary may order this—

1. (2) Die Minister van Posen Telekommunikasiewese, en enige Minister wat lid is van die Staatsveiligheidsraad, en enige beampte wat deur die Minister van Posen Telekommunikasiewese aangewys is om een te wees …

And this was done years ago, before my time, when the Postmaster-General was designated as chief functionary and he in turn designated one of his deputies as a delegate—

1. (3) Lasgewing tot ’n onderskepping mag net uitgereik word op versoek, wat skriftelik moet wees of so gou moontlik skriftelik bevestig moet word …

And that is as I spelled it out on 18 February—

Section 118A of the Post Office Act relates to the situation now being sketched—

1. (4) Dit is onwettig vir enige beampte of werknemer van die Poskantoor om posstukke andersins as in die gewone loop van die posdiens te bestel, d.w.s. te bestel aan iemand anders as die persoon aan wie dit geadresseer is, of aan die afsender, indien hy nie behoorlik daartoe gemagtig is nie. (Vergelyk artikel 93(f) van die Poswet)

The following conclusions can be drawn from this, according to the State Law Advisers—

1. (a) Dat op wettige versoek iemand anders as die Minister van Posen Telekommunikasiewese, of iemand in diens van die Poskantoor wat deur die Minister van Posen Telekommunikasiewese daartoe gedelegeer is, wel ’n lasgewing om ’n onderskepping kan gee, maar so iemand anders kan alleen ’n Minister wees wat lid is van die Staatsveiligheidsraad.
2. (b) Dat aan ’n lasgewing deur so ’n ander Minister vir die onderskepping van ’n posstuk nie wettig deur enigiemand in diens van die Poskantoor uitvoering gegee kan word nie, tensy hy behoorlik …

that is to say, by the functionary, by the Postmaster-General—

I hope that this is the end of the story and that if the hon. member has any further difficulties with those documents of hers, she will raise the matter on the right occasion and will not take up any more of my time with it.

[Inaudible.]

I now come to the other aspects that were dealt with in the Third Reading debate. I want to begin with the hon. member for Hillbrow. Hon. members may be surprised, but I want to convey my sincere thanks to him for the fact that right at the end he sounded a positive note. I want to thank him for the positive remarks he made. I think that he himself became a little weary of his own negative stories.

I shall not be able to deal with all the points, and if I do not get to certain points, I shall give the hon. member written replies at a later stage. The hon. member asked a question about the SABC, and put forward a newspaper as an excuse. He said that he had telephoned the editor of the newspaper. In other words, he is prepared to accept the report as the Gospel truth rather than my word.

No.

Yes, he said that he had telephoned the editor of the newspaper …

[Inaudible.]

However, he did not do so in order to ask whether the report was right or wrong, but to ask whether Prof. Mouton had objected. Is Prof. Mouton, then, to go around up following up the reports in every gutter paper? I think that as Rector of a university and a man who, like the Postmaster-General, occupies two posts—he is among the top people in the country—he does not have the time to take any notice of the kind of smear reports which the hon. member quoted here.

But he should take them to the Press Council.

Sir, I want to be fair. The hon. member did also sound a positive note. The hon. member for Umhlanga, too, did so eventually. The hon. member said: “Let us make a fresh start as far as the SABC is concerned.” Unfortunately we did not have a fresh start yesterday, but rather a bad ending.

Start from today.

Let people differ with one another. However, if someone has really rendered an important service to the country through his energy and his talents, or is still capable of doing so, one is willing to pay tribute to him and not to undermine him. In such a case, if one wants to undermine him, one has an ulterior motive. On the basis of what was said about Dr. Piet Meyer by various members yesterday, I want to say that I do not take exception to their differing with him. However, I do not think it becomes them to undermine him. In the course of 20 years that man performed a service to South Africa for which the country will always be grateful to him. As far as Prof. Mouton, who has not even started his job, is concerned, a gutter paper has already started to make his work impossible for him. They want to create an atmosphere in which it is simply impossible to work, and hon. members in this House go along with that. I gave an assurance here yesterday. It is a tradition in this House that we accept one another’s word. I did not only say here that it was untrue what the newspaper had said about Prof. Mouton. I provided evidence. I did my share. Now I should like to ask whether hon. members will not be so fair as to make a “fresh start” and to admit that in slighting Prof. Mouton they were misled by a newspaper whose word one cannot believe, and to apologize to Prof. Mouton.

Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal explanation: The hon. the Minister has now given an unequivocal assurance that the report I quoted concerning Prof. Mouton which appeared in the Sunday Express on 16 March, was incorrect. I should like to say that I accept that assurance. Accordingly I am prepared to withdraw without qualification the criticism I levelled at Prof. Mouton in that connection.

I want to convey my sincere thanks to the hon. member. That is generous of him. If we move on that level I believe that we shall make progress in this country. I want to thank the hon. member for the apology he offered.

The hon. member for Hillbrow had reservations about advertisements of liquor and tobacco on television. I want to tell him that a special committee of the Board of the SABC does consider this very carefully from time to time. Certain norms have been laid down in an effort to prevent these advertisements from giving offence. Representations are being made in this regard from all quarters, including church and welfare bodies, and I think we can take it that due attention is being given to the points of view of all these different people.

The hon. member also asked whether it was necessary that the whole of Broadcast House should now be used for TV 2. There is no place at all for that vast undertaking in the new building at Auckland Park. If I remember correctly, approximately R28 million is being saved by making use of the old building. On the other hand, the hon. member is aware that the SABC has also succeeded in obtaining possession of the large building in Pretoria which belonged to the National Film Board, after the Board was abolished. That building with all its facilities will also be used for TV 2. The task of TV 2 is so great that they will have to be accommodated in Johannesburg and Pretoria.

The hon. member referred to transport costs, a major item of expenditure for the Post Office. He suggested methods of saving even more in this regard. He also made a plea about post office boxes. I think that the Post Office in fact encourages the hiring of post office boxes, particularly in the rural areas where postal services are provided at a loss. Since the people come to town regularly, they should rather hire post office boxes which they can open at any time of the day or night. I therefore endorse the hon. member’s point that the hiring of post office boxes should be encouraged. I do just hope that the hon. member bears in mind that since the early ’sixties—I am not quite sure of the date—the rental on post office boxes has never been increased. I also mention this in view of the hon. member’s standpoint.

Do not get any ideas. Leave it the way it is.

No, I do not have any ideas in this connection. I have my own standpoint in this regard, and I shall tell the hon. member what it is. The last time the rental on post office boxes was increased, I said to the then Minister it was not fair. I said that he should rather encourage the renting of post office boxes, because it saved work.

And energy.

As the hon. member says, it saves energy as well. The Minister listened to me at the time and over the years it has remained unchanged until today, now that I am occupying the post. [Interjections.] The hon. member also asked that I should be a Father Christmas. Someone else asked the same thing recently, but that was in connection with something else. The letters written to Father Christmas by children …

You do not have the looks.

One can give any wig to bald-headed men like the hon. member and myself and it would fit. [Interjections.] If the hon. member has ever seen me in a different get-up, he would have seen that I look a great deal like Father Christmas. However, I want to come back to the request put to me by the hon. member. Unfortunately I cannot comply with his request because section 25 of the Post Office Act reads as follows—

1. (a) which is without address or bears an illegible address or is otherwise undeliverable; or
2. (b) which is refused by the person to whom it is addressed; or
3. (c) which has been posted or is reasonably suspected to have been posted in contravention of this Act or any other law,

shall be sent to the office known as the returned letter office and dealt with as may be prescribed.

Are you prepared to amend the Act?

I do not see the need for that, but if the hon. member were to come forward with a better motivated proposal than he did today, we can take another look at the matter.

Apart from the sound lecture in finance which he gave the hon. member for Hillbrow, the hon. member for Sunnyside made a very valid point about the training of non-Whites in particular and said that people of all population groups should be trained. The Post Office does in fact do this. The Post Office also affords assistance to the independent States of Venda, Bophuthatswana and Transkei. Just recently a deputation approached us from Bophuthatswana asking for further assistance particularly in regard to training, and also in regard to the provision of staff. We are therefore trying to give attention to this matter.

During the Committee Stage—I must apologize for not having been able to discuss the matter then—the hon. member for Kempton Park discussed the poaching of trained staff of the Post Office by the private sector and other bodies. The hon. member for Sunnyside also referred to this. This is an unfortunate phenomenon that we encounter, and I refer to it yesterday as well. At present these trained people are scarce and there are many people seeking their services. This phenomenon is not confined to South Africa alone, however. It also occurs elsewhere in the world. I want to thank the hon. member for Kempton Park for the standpoint he adopted about this yesterday, and that he broached it here at the highest level. We as the Post Office are now attempting to neutralize that tendency by taking other steps. Besides housing and other conditions of service that make it more attractive to work for the Post Office and give the staff more stability, the Post Office also stimulates the universities, as I have already announced. Apart from the chair in Pretoria, there is an additional R100 000 this year to enable universities to train more people so that there will be a bigger pool to draw from. I want to appeal to the private sector and other bodies to do the same. Then it will not be necessary for us to poach one another’s staff.

The hon. member also asked that we should not summarily withdraw the “honour system”. The other day my approach was that we were now giving people a final chance, and if that did not work, we should have to take other steps. We shall also try, as the hon. member suggested, to make use of other publicity media in order to call for co-operation in this regard.

The hon. member for Umhlanga really amazed me this afternoon. The hon. member did not do his homework. He talks about waiting lists and then quotes the figures for Soweto as if they were the figures for the total non-White population in South Africa. The hon. member is showing me something there. Here is a copy of my speech which I made the day before yesterday. Under “Soweto” he can read—

If the hon. member were to look at the previous page—and I have also just asked the hon. member by way of an interjection if he did not hear what I said—he will see the following—

Of those 99 000 on the waiting list, approximately 40 000 are non-Whites, viz. Coloureds, Indians and Black people, distributed across the various concentrations of the country. I take pleasure in providing this figure to the hon. member.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Minister how many of the 67 000 who were on the waiting list at this time last year, were Blacks?

My approach is that there were 67 000 applicants awaiting telephones last year. At present there are 99 000 on the waiting list. Now the hon. member almost dies of fright at that. But in the meantime, 200 000 have been disposed of. Those 67 000 have been dealt with. But new ones have been added in the meantime. The hon. member will see that the growth rate is in respect of these areas in particular. If the hon. member looks at the budget for revenue and expenditure, he will see the following services under item 2.2.2—“Telecommunication buildings”: Atlantis, Ballitoville, Athlone, Strandfontein, Swartklip, Cato Ridge, Durban (Mt. Edgecombe), Durban (Ntokozweni), which I have just mentioned, Durban (Phoenix), Durban (Shall-cross), Eshowe, Isipingo, Krugersdorp, Lenasia, Orlando, Port Elizabeth (Bethelsdorp), Springs (Kwa-Thema), Tembisa, Tongaat, Uitenhage (Kwa-Nobuhle) and Vereeniging. I could continue in this vein. It is now the third time that I am referring to this and trying to explain it He must help me a little by doing his homework. Please, let us not give the impression that we are dealing with a kindergarten here.

To end off, the hon. member paid a fine tribute to the Post Office staff. I said to the hon. member by way of interjection: “You can take a page from their book.” I say this particularly in view of what the hon. member said here yesterday. I hope that he is going to show an improvement.

I have already referred to the contribution of the hon. member for Overvaal. He pointed out that effective communication also promoted our system of private enterprise and he referred to the key role that the Post Office could play in this regard. He said that at certain levels the Post Office could virtually take the lead in the world developments that lie ahead. I do not think that the Post Office is undeserving of that honour, and I hope that what the hon. member said here, will become true.

In conclusion, I want to say a few words about the SABC with regard to complaints that have been advanced. I want to say to hon. members that I took the trouble to give them a copy of the code in accordance with which the SABC operates. That code is necessarily different to that on the basis of which newspapers function. I think that if the hon. member for Umhlanga were to go and stand on his head in the street, newspapermen would take photos of him as quickly as they could and would publish them, but I do not believe the SABC would show it on television. They would not do so, out of respect for the hon. member. A different code applies.

The hon. member made certain statements here, but I shall not be able to discuss all of them. He shuddered at the face of Mr. Cliff Saunders. I want to tell the hon. member here and now that since the beginning of the year, Mr. Saunders has only issued television bulletins seven times. He only gave background commentary on one occasion, and moreover, on that occasion it was clearly stated—and now the hon. member must listen—that he was providing commentary. The word “commentary” appeared on the screen. That is what he asked for here yesterday. The hon. member is now shaking his head. Again I must ask whether we are not dealing with a schoolroom here. The SABC reporters and writers are not permitted to insert their own commentary into the reports, as is the custom among certain newspapers, viz. mixing commentary and news. If commentary from a third person is reflected, it has to be authoritative and the source must be clearly stated. The hon. member referred to the television programme a few evenings ago and said that it was good because there was a lot of foreign news in it. The average proportion of foreign news items on the news is 35%. In some bulletins it is much higher.

Is it live news from overseas?

Yes, they are foreign television news items. In some bulletins the content is even higher, depending on the news value of the events. During the Rhodesian election the average foreign news content was consistently higher than 35%.

In conclusion, I should like to make a few more remarks. On the basis of its budget, its annual report and the respect shown it from all sides, the Department of Posts and Telecommunications is one of the most smoothly operating and purposeful organizations in our country. The Post Office is entering the coming decades fully prepared, decades in which micro-electronics in particular is going to play a major role, with the new inventions it will provide for us. It is an era which will be comparable to the development of the motor-car and the aeroplane, from the small double-decker Tiger Moth to the enormous Jumbo of today. We are entering a new era, and in this sphere the Post Office is going to be the pace-setter in this country. It is equipped and prepared, and its staff is motivated for this purpose, and that is the most important thing. They are led by a man like Mr. Louis Rive, who is recognized everywhere as a person who knows how to administer, how to plan and how to work in a dedicated way. I want to make use of this opportunity to convey my thanks once again to the Postmaster-General, his three deputies and their staff for the dedicated service they give South Africa. As far as the Broadcasting Corporation is concerned, in spite of all the negative things being said, there is evidence—if the hon. member reads the annual report—that this organization has no equal on the continent of Africa, nor, perhaps, in the entire southern hemisphere. Its services extend far beyond our borders, where it exercises an influence through the very quality of its services. Apart from that, it assists in the stimulation and promotion of broadcasting in our neighbouring States and in some of the very young countries. The SABC provides educational leadership, develops a taste for what is beautiful, for music and the arts. It conveys information, and in fact it helps from day to day to make the people in our country, and even those beyond our borders, better equipped people. For that reason I want to convey my sincere thanks to the directors-general and all their staff on behalf of the Board.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Speaker, one of the strangest and most entertaining events took place in Parliament the other day when the hon. member for Somerset East spoke about this Bill. He sketched the history of this settlement and told us how it had come into being. He also spoke about Sir Percy Fitzpatrick. One could almost feel the spirit of Jock sniffing and barking about this Chamber. That was the spirit in which the hon. member approached his subject.

†I must say that I felt that that was one of the most telling speeches I have heard in this session of Parliament. I want to thank the hon. member for what he has said here and for the way in which he has brought to the attention of the House something which is really a part of the history of our country. A real part of the history of our country is coming to a close today. I think it is important that when things like this happen, we should mark the occasion. The hon. member has sketched the whole process which has been gone through since the very beginning. In this process the people of this settlement have been given control over their own affairs. That portion of our history is now going into a new phase in which things tend to get bigger. It is one of the facts of life in the administration of our country. Small units tend to become uneconomic, too small and financially too crippling to allow affairs to be handled in a satisfactory fashion. The smallness of the demand people make today on that sort of institution tells against them. What we are seeing today, is an expansion into a larger area in which better services can be rendered and in which the assets of a community like this are being absorbed into a larger organization. However, what is happening, is that the assets of the community are being preserved for the better of the community. I think everybody must be grateful that that is happening. I think it is very important indeed that this is something that is used for the benefit of those people. It is something one might almost regard as their inheritance from the past.

Obviously we support the Second Reading of this Bill. I want to say again that I very much enjoyed what the hon. member for Somerset East has had to say in the course of this debate.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to express my thanks for the support which this Bill enjoys. The hon. member for Bryanston probably made his shortest speech ever in this House.

His best one too.

Without fear of contradiction I want to say that it must have been one of his best speeches too. If he keeps up that quality in this House in the future, he will become an honoured member.

I should very much like to endorse what was said by the hon. member for Mooi River and to thank the hon. member for Somerset East. The hon. member for Somerset East began his speech by speaking with great compassion of the officials who had to investigate this matter and who had to bring about a spirit of resignation on the part of the people involved over a long period. I agree with him that the officials involved really succeeded in satisfying all the parties, and that is why we are able to pass this Bill today. The history which was sketched in such a telling and realistic way by the hon. member for Somerset East was one of the highlights, I believe. I agree with the hon. member for Mooi River that we are presently dealing with one of the positive things of the session. The hon. member for Somerset East related a piece of history to us just to show us how rich our country is in history. It also proves the contribution that every population group has made to the history of the country. I say with great pride that I am part of the history sketched by the hon. member. In fact, my forebearers were among the people who settled there. I may just add that I am quite settled; I do not know whether they are all settled yet. We thank the hon. member for Somerset East for his fine contribution. It is on record, and I think it will be preserved for posterity in this way.

I also wish to convey my sincere thanks to the hon. member for Mooi River for the thoughts he expressed. I agree with him. We have here a typical example of what the hon. member said, i.e. that we have a small organization which used to function very efficiently, but because of its smallness and the scope of the activities, which have expanded so greatly of late, it has been incorporated into a bigger organization. This is a very good thing.

I just want to mention that the hon. member for Port Elizabeth North was to have participated in the debate. The hon. member was born in the Sundays River valley area and he also knows the history of this organization very well. We are sorry that he is feeling unwell today and has therefore been unable to speak.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

The Agricultural Credit Act of 1966 provides for financial assistance to be rendered to persons who practise farming or undertake to practise it. With the exception of loans for certain purposes, however, this assistance can only be rendered to persons who are Whites. The loans which may be applied for by any person who is a land-owner are in respect of the erection of dwellings for farm labourers, soil conservation or waterworks and the establishment or management of a private forest.

As far as Coloured farmers are concerned, the position is that Government assistance is available in terms of the Coloured Farmers Assistance Law of 1973. No problems are being experienced in this connection. However, representations have been made to the Government to the effect that the Government should provide for financial aid to Indian farmers in respect of the farming industry. The matter was investigated and it was decided that the aid which at present is restricted to White farmers in terms of the Agricultural Credit Act of 1966 should also be made available to Indian farmers. The Bill which is now before the House, therefore, is intended to remove the legal impediments to the implementation of the decision.

†It is also proposed to increase the membership of the Agricultural Credit Board from nine members to a maximum of 12 members. The reason for the proposed increase is firstly that provision has to be made for the appointment of knowledgeable persons who can assist the board in the consideration of applications received from Indian farmers. Compared to the number of White farmers in the Republic, the Indian farming community is relatively small and a limited number of applications are expected. Each application will, however, be considered on its own merit and in accordance with policy to be formulated in conjunction with the board and subject to the availability of funds.

Secondly, as a result of the relief measures which were introduced to assist farmers in the drought-stricken areas of the Karoo and North-Western Cape, as well as the implementation of a special scheme which was announced during December 1979 to assist farmers in certain strategically situated areas in the Transvaal, the board finds it increasingly difficult to cope with the large number of applications for assistance under the Act. In order to put the board in the position to deal with applications in the most effective way, its membership will have to be increased.

As it will be unnecessary to appoint all of the proposed additional members on a fulltime basis, provision has also been made that the remuneration of members of the board may differ according to whether they serve full time or part time.

Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House naturally welcome this amending Bill and we support it with great enthusiasm. At the moment, the Act provides that only White farmers may receive certain financial aid through the Agricultural Credit Board. Of course, this excludes all those aspects to which the hon. the Deputy Minister referred, such as houses for Coloured people, as well as other possibilities in terms of which Coloured or Indian farmers can apply for aid. It is true that for the last two or three years, or even longer, there has been a tendency among sensible South Africans to believe that facilities made available by the State should be shared by all citizens of South Africa, on an equal basis, of course.

We on this side of the House feel the same way about this matter, as does the hon. the Deputy Minister and, I believe, most hon. members on the Government side. Therefore it is a great pleasure to us to support this amending Bill, a Bill in which farmers of colour are also enabled to obtain credit facilities in terms of the same legislation and from the same department. The hon. the Deputy Minister explained that other provision had been made with regard to Coloured farmers and that things were going smoothly at the moment Of course, one hopes that in time, they may also be able to obtain credit facilities in terms of this legislation.

The second important aspect of this amending Bill is the increase in the number of board members from 9 to 12. We understand that because of climatic conditions during the past two or three years, the amount of work that has to be done has increased enormously, and that for this reason, the board has hardly been able to give proper attention to the number of applications that are received. Consequently we shall be glad to support the legislation with regard to that aspect as well.

I want to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister how serious the problem with the backlog of applications really is. I believe that he will be able to tell me this. It is in the interests of this House that we should know. How serious is the backlog? With the new increase in the number of board members, how soon, in the opinion of the hon. the Deputy Minister, can this work be completed? Of course, we all know that there are many farmers—in the drought-stricken areas, as well as in the border areas, to which the hon. the Deputy Minister referred—who are waiting anxiously for decisions on applications submitted by them. When the hon. the Deputy Minister replies to this question, it would also be interesting to hear from him whether the applications were received from new farmers, farmers who had recently entered agriculture, or only from farmers who were already established in agriculture.

We gladly support this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, we are grateful for the fact that the hon. member for Wynberg has supported the legislation on behalf of the official Opposition. He said he hoped that provision would be made for the Coloured people as well. I think the hon. the Deputy Minister will deal with that aspect and point out to him that provision has in fact been made for credit facilities for the Coloured people.

I said that provision had been made for them.

For the sake of interest I just want to point out that there are only 2 090 Indian farmers in South Africa They own 72 000 ha of land in the Republic of South Africa Of these farmers, 2 060 are in Natal, i.e. there are only 30 Indian farmers outside Natal. The vast majority of the Indian farmers are found on the north and south coast of Natal. In Natal they own 69 000 ha of land. Most of these farmers are vegetable, fruit, banana and sugar-cane farmers. Only a small percentage of them own economic units. Only in a few cases do they own more than 20 ha of land. Few of them have sole title to the farms. They are usually group owners. Indian farmers have not been completely excluded from State aid in the past. The Land Bank did provide for them.

There are three categories of farmers in the Republic of South Africa. Farmers in the first category do not qualify for State aid or financing. The farmers of the second group are clients of the Land Bank. They are farmers who have security for the loans they want to raise, and they are therefore enabled to enlarge their units. However, we must take into consideration the fact that those farmers pay 9% interest on the State money. The farmers in the third category are farmers who do not have enough security for loans. The Indian farmers fall mainly in this category. Therefore it is a good thing that the legislation is now going to be changed to enable them to be assisted by the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure. That is actually where they belong.

As I have said, some Indian farmers have been helped by the Land Bank, but it will be of very great benefit to them to be assisted by this department, because then they will only have to pay 5% interest. This is very good news to them, because it will have many advantages for them if this legislation is passed today. I just want to refer briefly to a few of the advantages. As the hon. member for Wynberg also said, a member of the Indian community can now be co-opted to this board when attention is being given to matters involving Indian farmers. In the second place, it will be possible to assist far more of them, because, as I have said, most of them fall in this category. Thirdly, they will be enabled to obtain capital at a low interest rate in order to enlarge their units. Now they will also be able, like other farmers, to obtain capital for labour housing, water supply, the building of soil conservation works and the establishment and management of plantations. They will also be protected by law when problems arise and they are called to account by creditors. By selling or leasing to these people land which belongs to the State, for example, they will also be able to acquire this land on favourable terms.

I want to conclude by saying that we on this side welcome and support this legislation. We are very grateful for the fact that the Indian farmers, who live mostly in Natal, will be able to benefit from agricultural credit along with the White farmers.

Mr. Speaker, I also welcome the measure introduced by the hon. the Deputy Minister. We shall support the Second Reading. This is something which affects my constituency to a large extent. I have noticed just lately that there has been a tendency for ground to be sold by Whites to Indians to be used for agricultural purposes. Such matters are naturally referred to the member of Parliament for his consideration as well as to the Natal Agricultural Union and to various people in the constituency concerned. The last application received concerned an area about 8 ha in extent in the Estcourt district.

I think there are several points one has to be aware of in a situation like this where, as the hon. the Deputy Minister has said, the measure is intended to benefit the Indian community in particular. Firstly, I think the Indian community are very efficient farmers. They are very, very good utilizers of ground and the productivity of the small plots they have at present are a tribute to what they can produce. However, when they move away from the small plot to a larger farming unit I think there may be problems of adjustment. The plot as it exists at the moment is entirely a family thing. Everybody in the family works on the plot and helps to make it productive. The question of larger areas is something that has enjoyed considerable attention from the Natal Agricultural Union and from the farming community in my constituency. We have not yet had a case where a member of the Indian community has applied to buy a large farm, but I imagine that one of these days we are going to get such a case. I want to put it on record here and now that the people to whom I have spoken in my area have absolutely no objection whatever to a person of whatever race buying a farm in the area. Provided he farms correctly, there are no problems with that at all. It may well be that the measure the hon. the Deputy Minister is introducing is going to start a process of this nature, which might have considerable social consequences. As regards the question of the productivity of the ground, the Indian community tend to farm ground intensively and this is something that might well show us that there is a second or a third dimension to the farming potential in my area, which is very well watered indeed. Almost the entire Mooi River constituency is indeed blessed with a very sufficient rainfall.

I think there is another problem, a social problem, which is, as the hon. member for Vryheid also said, that the land is often not owned by one person, but is a communal holding, a family holding. The hon. member for South Coast will agree with me that that is so. Indeed, we have there the social system of the extended family. I welcome the fact that it has been suggested that a member of the Indian community may be co-opted to the board, because it may well be that there are special circumstances which will come to light in dealing with the Indian community and which are a complicating factor, seen in terms of the individual ownership which at this moment pertains when White farmers apply for loans and assistance under this legislation. I think we are not only helping the Indian community, but we also must realize that we may well be introducing to ourselves a new concept which we have not had to study as yet when it comes to this kind of operation of helping people to farm.

As far as increasing the number of the board members is concerned, I must say that I honestly do not know how these chaps operate at all. They must be overwhelmed with work. I imagine the hon. the Deputy Minister will tell us that when there is a drought period, the work increases and when times are good, it may decrease a little, but what concerns me is that if he increases the number of the board, and a lot more applications goes through is he going to have the money to be able to handle all these applications? With regard to this aspect we will be able to talk to the hon. the Minister of Finance in a few weeks’ time, but I think the hon. the Deputy Minister must realize that he may well have a problem. If the applications are processed faster, then the demand on the available funds is going to be that much greater. I would like to hear the hon. the Deputy Minister’s comments on whether he, in his department, is working with a globular sum of money from which they draw and there is some left over at the end of the year, or whether a considerably larger amount should not be made available in the coming budget.

The move to have more members on the board, even if some are part-time and there is to be a differentiation in salary, is something one can understand. I really think that they are friends of the farmers and, by gum, in the days in which the farmers live today they need all the friends they can get. So, if we are to have three additional members, we welcome them to the fold.

Mr. Speaker, it seems that it has almost become customary for me to speak after the hon. member for Mooi River. It is not an unpleasant experience, especially when he talks about agricultural matters. He is a man who knows his subject and he is a friend of the farmers. I readily concede that. He made the point that as a result of the legislation, the Indians would begin to buy up more land now. However, I do not think this problem will arise, because the facilities of the Land Bank and ordinary loans have always been available to the Indians. I think we should see the matter in perspective. The agricultural credit system is there mainly to help people who cannot obtain credit facilities elsewhere. However, there are times when a little more money may be available, which may be used to help younger farmers. I think it is important to note that the legislation is intended to involve all people, and I hope the hon. the Deputy Minister will find it possible, when an application by an Indian farmer is under discussion, to involve Indian farmers as well in local Agricultural Credit Committees. I realize that the money which is lent to this category of farmers is usually risk capital, and the danger already exists that some Agricultural Credit Committees may be acting irresponsibly. Hon. members know that the local magistrate is the chairman of such committees, and these committees would like to help farmers by means of short-term loans or in some other way. However, we also have Agricultural Credit Committees who investigate matters thoroughly and who try to ascertain whether the assistance they can give an applicant would help him out of his difficulties. If they find that he can no longer be helped out of his difficulties, they should not assist him.

†I think this is possibly the appropriate time to place on record the contribution that the Indian farmers have made in South Africa. In the mid-1960s I was in the fortunate position to serve as Chief Extension Officer for the Natal coastal region. At that time the Indian farmers were my responsibility and I can say that they made and are still making a substantial contribution to farming in South Africa. There are approximately 1 800 Indian sugar-cane farmers and apart from them there are also in the vicinity of 1 000 other Indian farmers who farm mainly with vegetables, bananas and subtropical fruit. With regard to research, we appointed at that time two extension officers who were studying for their masters degree on the subject of the actual situation of the Indian farmers in Natal, who were mainly located in the coastal areas. One of these extension officers based the thesis for his masters degree on the sociological factors and the other one on the technical factors in Indian farming.

They also worked in collobaration with Professor Greyling and Dr. Davis from the Durban-Westville University and this survey work that was done was also incorporated in a doctoral thesis by Dr. Greyling. This related to the land occupation pattern of Indian-owned land on the North Coast of Natal and to agrarian development. So, as far as the know-how, the research and the background of Indian farming in South Africa, or mainly in Natal, is concerned, I think we have the required knowledge. At that time we also decided that we were going to assist these farmers as much as possible and to that end we appointed the late Dr. Pentz, who was a well-known agriculturist, and he worked mainly in the Pinetown and Cliffdale areas. I can say now that he really erected a monument to himself, because instead of having barren and exposed areas on these steep slopes, we today find very neatly laid-out vegetable plots on terraces and contours, and by and large these farms are doing very well.

The department also decided at that time that they were going to train Indian technicians. This was the outcome of the research work that was done at that time. They trained eight at the M. L. Sultan College and I assisted as principal at Cedara for a shorter period. I also had them there and we trained them in the horticultural aspects and they are today working among the Indian farmers. I can say that, as far as field assistance is concerned, those farmers are by and large better off than the White farmers, because the S.A. Sugar Association also has a full-time White extension officer working on the North Coast as well as an Indian extension officer and a part-time White extension officer on the South Coast assisting these people. I therefore feel that this is the appropriate time for this legislation in terms of which this sort of assistance can be given to the Indian farmers and I also feel that the Indian farmers are still making a substantial contribution to agriculture in South Africa. I therefore welcome the legislation.

Mr. Speaker, it was a good thing that the particulars supplied by the hon. member for South Coast should have been recorded, and I thank him for doing so. A great and very important financial institution in the country likes to advertise that it is the biggest and the friendliest helping hand in the country. It is a fact that the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure also extends a helping hand through the Agricultural Credit Board, and a close scrutiny will reveal that if the Agricultural Credit Board is not the biggest helping hand, it is most certainly one of the most important helping hands in the country, because it is concerned with such an important key industry, namely the farming industry. It may reasonably be expected, therefore, that the role of this board will become even more important and comprehensive. There are several reasons for this. In terms of the very important recommendations of the Jacobs report, increasing use will be made of this instrument. Now there is a new task which was entrusted to the board a short while ago, and that is to help dispose of land which becomes available in terms of the important consolidation processes that have been set in motion in such a serious spirit. Then there is also the special aid scheme which is being envisaged in respect of our northern borders, a scheme which will also be administered by the Agricultural Credit Board. It is a generally accepted fact, too, that many of our farmers are in great distress, and it has been indicated that they will have to receive and will in fact receive assistance. With regard to the granting of this assistance, too, the Agricultural Credit Board will do the actual work. I am now referring in particular to the sheep farmers of the North-Western Cape and the Karoo whose fate has been discussed in this House before. I gained first-hand knowledge of the position of these farmers when I went to help with the by-election in Beaufort West last year.

Having referred to that region, I just want to digress for one sentence. It was during that by-election that the official candidate of the NRP said that he accepted that his party had no policy, but that his party only represented a school of thought. [Interjections.]

I think it is desirable, too, that we should consider the scope of the activities of the Agricultural Credit Board, just for the record.

Order! I want to point out to the hon. member that he should only discuss the amendments in the Bill.

Mr. Speaker, that is indeed what I am discussing, because the amendment serves to increase the number of members of the board. I now want to refer to the scope of the board’s activities. The board came into operation on 1 October 1966, and between that date and 31 December 1978, assistance was rendered in 74 970 cases, and the amount involved was R243,5 million. I think it is a great achievement that of the loans granted during this period, only 0,2% have so far been written off. When we consider that this board actually concentrates on the people falling in category three, as has been mentioned here, I think this is a great achievement. I just want to repeat the percentage of 0,2%.

It is also clear that even in the most recent past, the work of the board has greatly increased. Between April 1977 and March 1978, the board handled 5 861 cases. These cases were discussed at 246 meetings, which gives an average of 23,8 cases per meeting. Between April 1978 and March 1979, the board handled 6 521 cases at 245 meetings; in other words, an average of 26,6 cases per meeting. From this it is clear, therefore, that the activities are increasing and will in fact increase even further.

For this reason, I think we should congratulate the hon. the Deputy Minister on having ensured in good time that there will be enough people to be able to handle the board’s affairs. Of course, his step is in accordance with the Government’s declared intention to bring about ever better administration. For this reason, I can support the principle that the number of members of the Agricultural Credit Board should be increased and that some of the members may be appointed on a temporary basis, so that they will be available under specific circumstances, when specialized knowledge is required.

As regards the principles contained in clauses 3 and 4 of the amending Bill, it is not really necessary to motivate them any further. We are merely removing a distinction which had been made in the Act. We all agree with that principle in this regard.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank hon. members for their support of this measure. Furthermore I want to reply briefly to a few points that have been raised here.

I shall begin with the hon. member for Wynberg. He asked whether it would not be possible eventually to extend this Act to cover the Coloured farmers as well, as we are now doing in the case of the Indian farmers. I shall reply to the hon. member as follows: As he knows, and as he conceded, too, the Coloured farmers have a system which is working very well at the moment. I should only like the system which is applied in the case of Coloured farmers to be gradually adjusted so that the norms applicable to the granting of aid to Whites will be made applicable to the Coloured farmers as well; in other words, there should be a gradual upgrading of the policy and the norms that are applied. We can discuss this matter again. I do not think it would serve any purpose to discuss it any further at this stage, because the Coloured farmers are very happy at the moment with what they have, and as far as I know, it is working very well indeed. However, I am very open to conviction with regard to this matter.

The hon. member also made a few remarks regarding the size of the board, and these are in agreement with what the hon. member for Mooi River said. I am glad that hon. members feel that the board should be enlarged. I want to say that there is no backlog of applications or work waiting to be dealt with. In other words, the board is able to work through the applications as they are prepared—and every application involves a great deal of preparatory work—and submitted to the board. We are very grateful for that. However, the board seldom starts working any later than 7 o’clock in the morning. They begin at 07h00 and they work until all the work for the day has been dealt with. Sometimes it lasts until 18h00. Hon. members can see, therefore, that their working day is a very long one. It is unreasonable to expect those people to work such long hours. When one works long hours, one may sometimes become a little irritable, and then one can no longer judge very objectively. Therefore it is urgently necessary that we should now enlarge the board because of the expansion of its activities.

Mr. Speaker, with regard to the question concerning the applications from the boarder areas, I want to say that you would call me to order if I discussed that, so I want to tell the hon. member that we should rather deal with it under the Vote. I intend to furnish quite detailed information concerning what has happened with regard to applications from the border areas. It might be more meaningful to discuss this under the Vote.

I just want to make one remark with regard to aid to Indian farmers. Hon. members must realize that our policy and norms applied in that connection will be a little different in the initial stages. As the hon. members for Vryheid and South Coast indicated, we are dealing here with a different type of farming. It is differently operated. The needs of these people may not be so great as those of the Whites. We shall have to apply a different policy to begin with.

The hon. member for Mooi River also said that Indian farmers were probably going to own larger areas. When we come to the stage where we can talk about economic units, the policy will also have to be adjusted in due course to bring it into line with the policy for the Whites. I think we shall have to do that, but it will be a gradual process. I believe that the board will very quickly formulate and stabilize a policy with regard to this assistance. Of course, they will have to call upon knowledgeable people in the Indian community to assist them in this respect. If the board sees fit, it may call in the Indians, when considering applications by Indian farmers, to advise the board on a temporary basis in this respect.

I now wish to refer to the local Agricultural Credit Committee. The hon. member for South Coast made an interesting statement with regard to the report which local Agricultural Credit Committees have to draft for the board. He asked whether it was not possible for a competent Indian with a knowledge of agriculture to be co-opted for the purposes of that report. This is an interesting idea which we shall follow up at once. Perhaps we can make such an arrangement so that people may be co-opted on that level as well.

The hon. member for Albany was right. This department is the heartache department, because it deals with people who are really on their knees. If one does not approach the task with great compassion and with the desire to render assistance, one cannot make a success of it. I think that the success of this department is in fact due to the board, because it examines all applications with great compassion. It is a very sad thing when one cannot help a person. However, we can have a much more meaningful discussion on this subject, too, under the Vote.

I want to thank hon. members once again for the debate we have conducted about this matter. I think it is a piece of legislation which can be implemented with great success.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

As hon. members will probably have deduced by now, the object of the Amendment Bill is to change the name of the Coloured Development Corporation.

Mr. Speaker, I think that you will allow me, as motivation for the change of name, to furnish a brief survey of the functions of the corporation.

Since its inception in 1962 the Coloured Development Corporation, which was established to promote the progress of the Coloured people in the industrial, commercial and financial spheres, has gained wide recognition in the commercial and industrial sectors, and with the passage of years the corporation has built up an excellent record of stability and reliability.

Although the corporation, in its initial years, concentrated mainly on advancing capital for the establishment of retail firms, the spectrum of its activities widened in due course and it also entered the sophisticated spheres of commerce and industry. Over the past few years a demand and need for the establishment of larger business centres arose, and several of these larger projects have already been successfully launched with the help of the corporation.

But the corporation has also, to an increasing extent, entered the industrial and manufacturing sector. In this case the object, inter alia, was also to ensure that employees in the industry concerned continued in their employment.

Another facet of the corporation’s activities which I wish to mention is the training and advice given to businessmen. This very important task is probably one of the principal reasons for the high percentage of successes achieved by clients of the corporation in the business world.

This short survey will impress upon hon. members the wide-spread activities and functions of the corporation. It has the status and the professional background of a full-fledged and modern development and financing concern, and it is desirable that a more descriptive name be allocated to it. It is also the wish and desire of the population sector which it serves that the name of the corporation should be given a positive connotation.

Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House will support the Bill. As the hon. the Deputy Minister of Coloured Relations indicated, the Bill is doing away with the word “Coloured” in the designation, and in fact it gives the old Coloured Development Corporation a new name. From our point of view such a change of name is of course welcome, in that it indicates that there is an awareness among members on the Government side that designations such as the ones which are being eliminated are sometimes not welcome among those whom they describe. Of course the removal of this kind of designation while the body in question continues to exist as a separate development body always constitutes a measure of danger that confusion may arise among the public. One thinks for example of a designation such as the Department of Co-operation and Development which, in its name, betrays nothing about the part played by that department in our society. I think this is something we will have to live with as long as separate organizations exist for the purpose of rendering assistance to various race groups.

Members on this side of the House would not normally be in favour of the existence of such separate development corporations. We would prefer to see the NDC serving all race groups. Nevertheless there is in our opinion exceptional circumstances which give justification to the existence of the present CDC, the name of which is now being changed. Such justification is the fact that we are dealing here with an economically underprivileged population group, owing of course to historical factors on the one hand and official discrimination over many years on the other. This is a population group which has, as a result, not always had the same opportunities to make its mark in the economic sphere, and which is therefore being assisted by this organization to share in the growth in the economic life of South Africa.

In this connection I think the Coloured Development Corporation has rendered good service.

There is one other matter I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Deputy Minister. This is the offence which is created in terms of section 24 of the principal Act. Section 24 reads as follows—

1. (1) No person and no company shall carry on business under or be registered under the Companies Act, 1926 (Act No. 46 of 1926), by a name which is the same as that of the Corporation or so nearly resembles it as to be calculated to deceive: Provided that…

And so it continues. I should just like to bring it to the attention of the hon. the Deputy Minister that we may be dealing with a problem here, when the name of the CDC is changed, because the new name will be far more general and less descriptive. As a result, it seems to me, it may be necessary to reconsider the offence created in terms of section 24 of the principal Act.

Then there is a second matter to which I should like to draw the attention of the hon. the Deputy Minister. This is a matter to which we should like to have an answer. I am referring to a report in The Argus of 22 February this year, in which it was stated that the chairman of the CDC, Dr. Du Toit, had stated that the mandate …

Order! The hon. member cannot quote from that report now.

Mr. Speaker, then I shall not quote from it. I just want to mention that it was alleged that the mandate of the CDC could in fact be expanded so that it could serve all small business undertakings, and perhaps small White business undertakings as well. Consequently I should like to know from the hon. the Deputy Minister whether the present Bill could perhaps be a precursor to an expansion of the general mandate of the CDC, to such an extent that it could perhaps render services to and provide members of other race groups, including the Whites, with finance.

We support this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Green Point again tried to drag a few political issues into this matter. However, I shall leave it at that. If the hon. member studies politics in South Africa carefully, particularly the policy of the NP, he will find many circumstances which necessitate separate organizations. But this, too, I shall leave at that.

We on this side of the House give this Amendment Bill our wholehearted support. I believe that it affords us an opportunity—an opportunity to every hon. member of this House—to pay tribute to the great and splendid work which the CDC has done under its present name.

I feel that I should like to classify the work of the CDC into two categories. In the first place there was the financial assistance which made it possible for businessmen to establish their business undertakings and in that way develop into businessmen of stature. In the second place there was the expert advice provided by the CDC. It was not merely a question of providing money for the establishment of business undertakings. These business undertakings were carefully scrutinized, and positive guidance was given. In addition this guidance was reacted to, and the result is that today we have these excellent business undertakings. As I have said, this resulted in businessmen of stature. This also made a major contribution to the creation of a strong middle-class among the Coloureds. All these things I wish to attribute in large measure to the work of this corporation. By means of this financial contribution, and the advice which was provided, people were established who are today maintaining an exceptionally high standard of living. That is why I wish to thank the board of directors and the officials for the zeal which they have displayed over the years. We must concede, however, that circumstances were not always favourable. There was very strong opposition to this corporation, but through its work it was proved that such a corporation was absolutely necessary. That is why there was growth and expansion in the activities of the corporation. If I may put it in this way, it became a fully-fledged financial institution. That is why the change of name has also become essential. We can therefore thank the corporation for what it did under the old name in the past and wish it everything of the best for the future under its new name. I wish the corporation prosperity for the future, and I hope its work will be of the same standard. May this corporation continue to make a major and important contribution to the economic upliftment of the Coloured people in South Africa.

Mr. Speaker, it is gratifying to see that the Government is eliminating a certain descriptive name from the Statute Book and substituting for it another appelation which, as a description, is more neutral and as such cannot give any offence.

One must tell the hon. the Deputy Minister that there is appreciation for the fact that the feelings of other people are being heeded. What is involved here is not in any way the principle of separate corporations for separate groups. That is not the principle which is being discussed here. Consequently I should like to associate myself with other hon. members and congratulate the Development and Finance Corporation on the results which it has in fact achieved in the past I also want to wish it every success in future. I hope this new name will also help it to achieve greater positive results.

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank hon. members for their general support for this legislation. In particular I wish to thank the hon. member for Oudtshoorn for the words of appreciation which he expressed for the very excellent work which the corporation has done and also for his words of appreciation to the board of directors. We shall convey these words to the corporation and the board of directors. I also wish to thank the hon. member for Durban Central for his positive contribution.

I also wish to reply to three points which the hon. member for Green Point raised. I agree with him that the Coloured people are lagging far behind in the economic sphere. At this stage such a separate financial aid institution is consequently indispensable for them. If it were not there today they would not be able to make the grade. There are hundreds of Coloured who can testify with great appreciation today to the assistance which they have received from this corporation, assistance which created possibilities for them which they would never have had in the normal competitive market. We can therefore speak only with great appreciation, as the hon. member for Oudtshoorn said, of the work which this corporation has done for these people who are lagging far behind. I do not wish to debate the question of discrimination as a possible cause with the hon. member for Green Point because he knows he is talking nonsense. I shall leave the matter at that. He asked whether we were not perhaps going to have trouble with section 22. However, we made certain that we were on the right track. We have already cleared this name with the Registrar of Companies. It has already been reserved and cleared with him, and he is satisfied with the name. The hon. member also asked whether this was a precursor to developments which would eventually enable smaller White businessmen to be assisted as well. Apparently he asked that question pursuant to a report which appeared at some stage or other in The Argus. At present this is not the intention. The corporation was established solely to render service to the Coloured people and the idea is not to deviate from that.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

In terms of section 67 of the Republic of South Africa Constitution Act, 1961, the salaries of Administrators are determined and provided for by Parliament. This means in effect that, should the Cabinet during the course of the financial year decide on a salary increase for the Administrators, that increase must be specifically provided for in the budget. In practice the situation arises that, until such time as the budget has been approved, the salary increases are paid without parliamentary approval and could thus be deemed as unauthorized expenditure.

To bridge the problem of unauthorized expenditure, it is proposed in clause 1 that section 67 be amended to make provision that the salaries and allowances of the Administrators be fixed by the State President, as in the case of members of Provincial Councils, members of Executive Committees and members of Parliament.

*Section 84(1)(fA) of the Constitution authorizes a provincial council to make ordinances in relation to “the assistance which a province or an institution or body contemplated in paragraph (f)”—i.e. municipal institutions, divisional councils and other local institutions of a similar nature—“may, with the approval of the State President, render to any other state, territory, province or the territory of South West Africa”.

In terms of section 84(1)(fA) as it stands—

1. (a) a province may not render assistance to a municipal institution established in any other province; and
2. (b) a municipal institution situated in one province may not render assistance to a municipal institution situated in any other province.

The amendment to section 84(1)(fA), as proposed in clause 2(a), will now provide the necessary authority for enabling a province to render assistance to a municipal institution established in any other province as well.

The proposed new paragraph (fB) does not contain any new principle, as paragraph (fA), as it stands, does, in fact, authorize a municipal institution to render assistance to any other state, territory or province. For reasons of efficacy a new paragraph is being inserted to have paragraph (fA) provide to whom a province may render assistance and to have paragraph (fB) provide to whom a municipality may render assistance. The South African Defence Force, which is concerned with civil defence, regards it as being essential that the rendering of assistance should be possible, in matters concerning civil defence, between municipal institutions in various provinces. The insertion of a new paragraph (fC), as proposed in clause 2(b), provides the necessary authority in this regard. I think I have made everything very clear now.

Mr. Speaker, this appears to be a benign measure, introduced by an outwardly benign hon. Deputy Minister, and we shall have no difficulty in supporting this Bill. Clause 1 follows logic in that members of Parliament do not at present adjudicate on their own salaries, and have not done so for some years. This practice has also been followed by the provincial councils. The salaries of members of Parliament and the salaries of most other elected persons are now adjusted by the State President. The custom has arisen, or at least it is done through legislation, by broadly following the course of the Civil Service when their salaries are taken into account. We are satisfied that the aspect of the amount of salary to be paid to an Administrator should be removed from the Parliamentary arena and the political sphere, and accordingly we shall support this clause of the measure as well. I do hope that the hon. member for Koedoespoort, as the years go by, will not become too envious as the salaries of Administrators are raised, from time to time, in terms of this provision. Sitting in the back benches in Parliament is not nearly as lugubrious as the position from where he came.

Salubrious!

Clause 2 of the Bill broadens the scope of assistance which either a province or a local authority might be entitled to give to another local authority, territory, State or body. This is particularly broadened in regard to the provisions relating to civil defence organizations and installations. I believe that civil defence in South Africa is assuming ever greater importance as the years roll by. In many towns, like Sandton, for instance, large numbers of people are trained in all sorts of useful skills such as fire-fighting, the provision of medical and first-aid facilities and the maintenance of essential services in the case of breakdowns or disaster.

This is all done by volunteers, but we do not often realize that the setting up of a civil defence organization and structure in terms of which groups of people are firstly trained, and then equipped to handle disasters of any nature which may occur, costs a great deal of money. It costs a great deal of money in equipment that has to be purchased such as uniforms, protective clothing and vehicles which are required. These vehicles and equipment are not used in the normal working activities of a municipality, but are on standby to cover that eventuality which could overtake a community and which, if there is no preparedness, could cause great damage to a community, to people and to buildings and installations. This is all right for the more affluent cities and towns.

Like Sandton.

Sandton has certainly spent a great deal of money, and I believe Sandton can afford it It is all right for those sorts of towns to have this burden placed upon them. Some of these towns have resources. They have a broad rate base and they have industrial development in their areas, but the great burden—and the need for this is seen in this legislation—in creating this sort of structure very often rests upon the smaller towns, many in the country districts, which do not have as broad a rate base, which do not have the quick growth of industry which gives them income by virtue of higher rates, the sale of services such as electricity, water, etc. As a result of this Bill, those small towns and bodies and, as the hon. the Deputy Minister mentioned, authorities which are not necessarily White authorities—they could be neighbouring territories or states which require these services as well—are now to be placed in a position to liaise with, and make application to, the bigger local authorities and to the provinces to ask for assistance. Because of this legislation that assistance now becomes possible. I assume that decisions will be based on merit. As they are, limitations are placed on the powers of provincial councils, but nobody knows, when we pass an enabling measure such as this, when or where disaster is going to strike next. Nobody knows when or where there is going to be a flood, a major explosion or an epidemic of any sort that could strike a city or town, nor in what form that disaster might strike. Therefore I think it is the duty of this House to encourage preparedness, and it is also the duty of this House to be of assistance to authorities and bodies which are prepared to train their people, to buy the equipment to look after these sort of problems and to care for their people, and I believe it is our duty to support it, and so we do.

Mr. Speaker, one of the hon. Whips has just advised me that the hon. the Leader of the House has said that he wants a short and sweet speech. It is not often possible to deliver a short and sweet speech after the hon. member for Sandton has spoken, but in the circumstances, and taking into account the position which his party has adopted in regard to this legislation, the excellent motivation which he has provided and the comprehensive motivation which the hon. the Deputy Minister has given for this particular Bill, my speech can indeed be short and sweet. The fact is that no new principles are involved in this legislation. It gives effect, as far as Administrators’ salaries are concerned, to practical needs. However, there is an additional angle to this, and that relates to the dignity of office of Administrator. It is not a good thing for a man’s salary to have to be debated in the Legislature. Despite the decline in the role and powers of provincial government in South Africa, I make bold to say that the role of Administrator, the public image of Administrators in the provinces, has actually grown with time. Administrators play a very important role, and I think it is only right for this Legislature also to acknowledge the dignity of the office and the role of the Administrator.

The second provision in this legislation simply reflects the increased complexity of government, the cost of government and the difficulty and cost of duplicating essential services. Therefore we on this side of the House have no difficulty whatsoever in supporting the Bill.

Mr. Speaker, with regard to clause 1 hon. members of this House are, in fact, under a moral obligation to give it their approval, since the same situation prevails with regard to the salaries of Ministers and ordinary members of Parliament Consequently we have no fault to find as far as that aspect is concerned. Clause 2, of course, is one which to some extent actually grants enhanced powers and freedom to the lower tiers of government in South Africa, in that it grants municipalities and provincial councils the power to spend money and to enter into agreements across their borders. We, as a party which is in fact intent on decentralizing government in South Africa, can only congratulate the Government and the hon. the Minister on moving slowly but surely, like oxen trudging patiently through the dust, in the direction of the way indicated to them by the NRP.

†It is also a very good thing that one should try on all occasions to make it as easy as possible to have an effective civil defence organization in South Africa. The amendments which are put forward here are necessary, and we are only too pleased to allow this Bill to be passed, so that the Government can get on with this very important job in South Africa.

Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to express any opinion whatsoever on the first clause of this legislation. I believe that all of us in this House agree that the salaries of Administrators be fixed in the same way as the salaries of all of us in this House and in provincial councils are fixed at present.

I just wish to thank the hon. Deputy Minister for the provision made in clause 2 with regard to provincial assistance and also with regard to municipal assistance across the borders of provinces. I think we in Natal may possibly have more reason to welcome this provision. Our province is surrounded by mountain ranges and is situated in a low veld area, but some of our smaller towns are situated on the escarpment. There are towns such as Charlestown, which is situated 6 km from Volksrust but 48 km from Newcastle. There is also a small place called Groenvlei, which is situated closer to Wakkerstroom. A place like Van Reenen is situated closer to and within easier reach of Harrismith. In other words, if this legislation now makes it possible for a place such as Charlestown to integrate its civil defence service with that of Volksrust, it will save not only a great deal of expense, but also a great dead of time in the event of a state of emergency arising there. In passing, I may just refer to the fact that Natal recently acquired, probably for the first time, a part of another province. I am referring here to Griqualand East, which used to be part of the Cape Province. Therefore, it is possible for civil defence organizations there to exist on a regional basis, organizations which fell within the Cape area, but which may now extend across the border between the Cape and Natal. As far as that is concerned, and as far as the topographical nature of our province is concerned, we in Natal have special reason to thank the Deputy Minister for this provision.

Mr. Speaker, I should like to tell the hon. member for Umlazi that I am grateful to him for having emphasized here by way of an illustration, the necessity for this amendment to the Act. He has indicated in a practical way that we need this kind of legislation so as to enable smaller local units—the hon. member for Sandton referred to this as well—which often have to carry a heavy burden as it is to join forces and provide a more effective service in that way. I am very pleased that all the hon. members who spoke in this debate, referred to the growing importance of and the necessity for civil defence. We can only promote this matter by the steps we are taking today. I should like to thank the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens for his reference to the humiliating position in which we found ourselves for many years in this House, viz. that we had to debate our own salaries here. We did not find that pleasant. People outside this House always criticized us when we, in all modesty, fixed our own salaries here. I should like to tell hon. members that now that we no longer have to decide our own salaries, things are going better for us than when we fixed them ourselves. The Administrators, too, benefit from this.

I should like to tell the hon. member for Durban Central that if he feels that the amendment we are effecting here, is in line with their foreign policy up there in Natal, it makes me happy, too, and I do not care, just as long as we can co-operate in this field.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

The object of this Bill is to substitute for the Provincial Powers Extension Act, No. 42 of 1960, an up-to-date version of that act, in view of recent developments and present-day needs.

In terms of the pension ordinances of the various provinces a pension is payable to members of provincial councils and executive committees and to their widows and dependants. The power to make such ordinances is conferred by section 1(1) of the Provincial Powers Extension Act, 1960.

The pension schemes for service on a provincial council are modelled on and normally brought into line with the Parliamentary Service pension scheme for which provision is made in the Parliamentary Service and Administrators’ Pensions Act, No. 81 of 1971. The latter Act was amended by the Parliamentary Service and Administrators’ Pensions Amendment Act, 1979, to make provision for the payment of gratuities as well as annuities to retired members of Parliament and Administrators.

†Mr. Speaker, the present Act does not make provision for the payment of gratuities to retired members of provincial councils or executive committees. In clause 1 of the Bill provision is now made for the payment of pensions as well as of gratuities to the said retired members. The only other new provision is clause 1(3). Although the basic pensions of retired Parliamentarians are limited in terms of the Parliamentary Service and Administrators’ Pensions Act, 1971, to highest salary whilst in service, the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions may subsequently, with the concurrence of the Minister of Finance, increase such pensions “notwithstanding anything to the contrary in any law contained” in terms of section 8(1) of the General Pensions Act, No. 29 of 1979, i.e. beyond the original limit. Increases by way of percentages or minimum allowances which are applied regardless of whether the original maximum pension is in payment or not, are accorded to retired Parliamentarians from time to time. The purpose of clause 1(3) is to enable provincial councils to legislate for similar increases of pensions payable to retired members of provincial council service pension schemes as are accorded to retired Parliamentarians on the same basis. This will bring about that the original limit may be exceeded.

Mr. Speaker, the main aspect is that which gives the right to provincial councils to legislate particularly for gratuities. This follows the legislation relating to Parliament some little while ago and brings the position here into line with that legislation. We have no objection to that.

The other aspect relates to the right given to the Administrator in consultation with the hon. the Minister of Finance to increase the pensions and allowances of provincial councillors. There is again a check and limitation upon that; the hon. the Minister of Finance being that check, and therefore we have no objection to that.

We will support the Bill through its stages. [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to give this Bill my full support. It is a good thing that powers are conferred on the provinces from time to time. The provincial system was born out of the Convention of 1908 to 1909, and since then, this House has delegated a great many matters to the provinces. The provinces have always upheld the system and have always justified the confidence placed in them. Consequently, the confidence which Parliament has placed in the provinces runs like a golden thread through our history. It would be a sad day if it ever were to happen that the provincial system were to cease to exist. We therefore hope and trust that the provincial system will continue to exist for many years, because it forms part of our history and also because the provincial councils never let Parliament down in the past. It is therefore an honour and a privilege for me to lend my full and sincere support to the power which is once again being conferred upon them in this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to support the Bill, and I just wish to avail myself of this opportunity to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister of the Interior to intercede whenever possible, for pensioners who retired a long time ago.

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. members sincerely for their enthusiastic support of this Bill. I shall convey the requests that have been made to the authorities concerned so that they can give effect to them, and I am referring in particular to the request by the hon. member for Durban Central. I wish to thank the hon. member for Nigel very sincerely for his kind remarks about the good work of the provincial councils.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.