Mr. Speaker, this is a self-imposed bonanza budget for the benefit of the Post Office Administration with a lot of fat built into it, for which the public must of course pay. Yesterday I immediately reacted to the positive aspects of the budget and referred to them specifically. It was in this regard that I indicated a broad acceptance of the budget.

However, I also clearly indicated that I would move an amendment to voice the critical aspects of the budget and to this end I move as follows—

1. (1) revises the tariffs which became effective on 1 February 1980 and which are of an excessive nature;
2. (2) closes the wage gap existing between Post Office employees of different racial groups;
3. (3) provides an unbiased and objective radio and television service; and
4. (4) gives an assurance that the privacy of the individual in the use of Post Office facilities will be inviolate unless the security of the State is jeopardized and the due process of the law is followed.”.

We approach the budget this year on an optimistic economic note. The gold bonanza has improved our foreign reserves far beyond our wildest expectations. Last year I had occasion to speak of the gold price averaging U.S. $230. Now it is something like 2½ times that amount. We are even talking about withholding gold sales overseas. We are looking forward to a growth rate of 4% to 5%. Also, with the obvious upturn in the economy there is now an air of buoyancy and expectation. Of course, we must be wary of the enemies inflation and unemployment.

It is this buoyancy that is reflected in the budget and in the figures to which I want to refer. As far as revenue is concerned, last year it was 14,8% more than the previous year and this year it is 19,4% more. There is therefore an increase of 4,6%. As far as operating expenditure is concerned, last year it was 14,6% higher than the previous year and this year it is 19,7% higher, which gives an increase of 5,1%. Capital expenditure was 9,7% more and it is expected to increase overall by 19,3%.

The operating surplus of R75,6 million was allocated to finance capital expenditure. This year the operating surplus of R100,5 million will be used to finance capital expenditure. I would point out that there is no consistent level of increase over the years. This reveals a healthy situation. The two months of February and March of this year showed a gross revenue of approximately R17,5 million, based on the calculations made by the hon. the Minister. I mentioned that, for the reason I gave yesterday, we will far exceed the sum of R106 million anticipated last year.

This increase therefore should, I hope, see us through another five years. The revenue has increased by R29,4 million and the expenditure decreased by R15,6 million. That leaves us with R45 million to the good, which differs vastly from last year’s figure, when the figure of R4 million was mentioned. This is a real bonanza and raises the question of whether the increase in tariffs could not have been postponed even further. On these calculations it looks as if though the period of six months could have been contemplated. The excess of revenue over expenditure can be seen from the following figures: In 1976-’77 it was R76 million; in 1977-’78, R86 million; in 1978-’79, R64 million; in 1979-’80, R76 million and in 1980-’81, R129,3 million with an operating surplus of R100,5 million. These figures reveal the healthy state of the Post Office. Following the recommendations of the Franzsen Commission, it was decided in 1972 that as a guideline for the Post Office, 50% of its capital requirements should be financed from loan and 50% from self-generated funds. The latter comprises the operating surplus, plus the provision for depreciation and for the higher replacement cost of capital assets. Last year 59,9% of the capital expenditure came from loans and 40,1% from self-generating funds. This year approximately 57,6% will be financed from internal funds and 42,4% from loan funds, according to the Minister’s budget. This year self-financing components of capital expenditure will amount to 56,1%.

With respect to the recommendations of the Franzsen Commission, I must ask whether recommendations made in 1972 are in fact suitable for 1980. We have to look at the overseas market as well and this experienced difficulty in so far as the generating of money was concerned at that stage. But the country is now awash with money and it is easy to obtain finances from local sources at cheap rates. Surely, in this way we can use the excess of revenue over expenditure to keep the tariffs down and rather obtain money from outside sources. In the circumstances I must call for a revision of the recommendations of the Franzsen Commission to meet the exigencies of the modern-day market Those recommendations are not the law of the Medes and Persians. They were laid down as a guideline, and I think the time has come for a revision of those recommendations. Another aspect I should like to mention is that we should consider a tariff stabilization fund in which the unanticipated surpluses, i.e. surpluses over and above that budgeted for and estimated for and that are not required for increased standard stock, increased net operating capital, or redemption of loans, or collateral investment for housing loans can be paid. To continue with my argument I say that the increase in the operating surplus is substantial this year. It is R110,2 million, less R75,8 million, which gives us R34,4 million that could be paid into such a fund. The tariff stabilization fund which I propose, like the Rates Equalization Fund of the Railways, should cushion any unforeseen increases and should be able to hold down the tariffs for many years to come.

I should now like to compare the figures mentioned at the beginning of the estimates with the actual figures. The estimated revenue was R884 million whereas the actual revenue was R913,3 million, which gives us an increase of R29,4 million. The estimated operating expenditure was R808,1 million and the actual expenditure was R803,1 million, which is R5,1 million less. That of course does not take the capital expenditure into account. The net operating surplus was therefore R110,2 million compared with the estimated operating surplus of R75,6 million. This in fact shows that revenue has far surpassed the expectations. It underscores the upward move in the economy and the increasing tempo of business generally.

I submit one will always find that revenue exceeds the estimates, that often expenditure is over-estimated and that in most cases we end up with some form of surplus. Last year we celebrated the 10th anniversary of the autonomy of the Post Office, following the Wiehahn Commission recommending that the Post Office be run on business principles. This means, firstly, that the profits can go to a tariff stabilization fund and, secondly, that the Post Office can and must be carried by the telecommunications division so that the whole service is viable. The excess of revenue over expenditure in the telecommunications division must carry the postal services. It cannot be argued that because there are losses on postal services, tariff increases should be imposed. There certainly are losses in the Post Office. In fact, in 1976-’77 it was R22 million.

In successive years the losses rose to R30 million, to R38,3 million, then to R47,3 million while this year the estimated loss is R63,1 million. On the other hand, telephone services alone showed a surplus in revenue over expenditure of R115,7 million last year and this year it is estimated that it will show a surplus of R182,3 million, an excess of R118,7 million after deduction of the loss on postal services. The only other division that showed a loss is the Gentex where the loss is estimated at R15,5 million. It is estimated that even money transfers will show a surplus of R433 000 this year as against the loss of R2,1 million last year. This is a remarkable improvement, and perhaps the Minister can comment on this at some stage. The divisions that made profits were, firstly, the telephone service, to which I have already referred. Secondly, the profit on the telex service increased from R15,8 million to R20 million and the leased circuits dropped from R5,5 million to R4 million. The savings service dropped to R90 000 from R104 000. Again the total surplus of all the revenue against the expenditure increased from R75,8 million to R129,3 million. As I mentioned last year, the postal service a public service. In 1974-’75 the loss in the USA was $2,4 billion in spite of a subsidy of $1,1 billion from the United States Government.

Lastly, I must point out that the previous hon. Minister of Posts and Telecommunications last year announced an increase of approximately 13% in the tariffs. However, let us consider the actual increases. The tariff on newspapers increased from 2c to 3c, an increase of 33%. Letters increased from 4c to 5c, which is 25%. Registration of mail items went up from 15c to 20c, which is 33⅓%; express deliveries from 20c to 30c, which is 33⅓%; the local rate for telephone calls from 4c to 5c, which is 25%; telegrams from 3c per word to 5c per word, which is 66⅔% and COD showed an increase from 40c to R1, which is 150%. Excluding the increase for COD, the increase in tariffs is about 37% and not an average of 13% as was mentioned.

The hon. the Minister has the power to raise or to reduce the tariffs without coming to Parliament. I should like to see him use those powers in connection with telegrams for which he raised the tariff from 3c to 5c per word. This service already shows an substantial loss, a loss estimated at R15,5 million, mainly, I submit, for the reason that telephones and telex communications can do the job equally well. The rate for telephone calls has been raised from 4c to 5c. I submit that the larger increase in the cost of telegrams is counter-productive, as it has now become too expensive. People would therefore prefer to use the telephone and to use the telegram service even less. Therefore I would suggest that the Minister consider reducing the tariff on telegrams to 3c a word. The postage on letters could also be reviewed. The effect of this on the general public is something which should receive the attention of the hon. the Minister. As far as the increase from 40c to R1 on COD parcels is concerned, this reflects a hefty increase of something like 150%. This affects the mail order houses, which are amongst the Post Office’s best customers. It also affects the poorer section of the community who are at the receiving end of the mail order business and they are the ones who would be obliged to meet the increase in costs. According to the annual report the increase in the COD parcel rate produces revenue of R1,23 million. R59,6 million was collected last year, which is a substantial amount Here again, the increase can be counter-productive as the turn-over may drop. Some of these mail-order houses may go out of business, and therefore the hon. the Minister may perhaps consider phasing these increases in over a period of three years as well as granting bulk discounts. This may create certain difficulties for the Post Office, but I think it is a matter which could receive the attention of the hon. the Minister. In any event, these companies are now paying extra for postage and telephone calls; so it will pay the Post Office to revise the tariff and reduce it to, say, 60c this year with a view to increasing it over a further two years. I call upon the hon. the Minister to do that.

I note in a headline in an evening newspaper last night that the Postmaster-General, apparently in the presence of the hon. the Minister, was kind enough to indicate that he was pleasantly surprised by the latest figures. He indicated that revenue surpassed expectations and in fact hinted that tariffs could be revised during the year and that there was a possibility of a reduction. This is most welcome news, and I would obviously like to hear more on this from the hon. the Minister in keeping with the plea I have made. I want to turn briefly to staff and personnel. I want, firstly, to congratulate Mr. Rive and his personnel for the fine job of administration they have done. I want to thank the Post Office officials generally for their loyalty and devotion to duty.

The wage gap still exists, however. Coloured salaries are 90% of those of Whites and the salaries of Blacks 80% of those of Whites. The service bonus to be paid to an official on his birthday is certainly a unique payment. It is welcome news. What does remain a mystery, however, with regard to the increase in pay, is that adjustments are not at a uniform percentage, but rather on a differentiated percentage. Nobody seems to understand exactly what that means or how they are going to be affected. So it is hoped the hon. the Minister will take the opportunity of explaining exactly what the affect of this differentiated rate is going to be. We are obviously delighted that the Post Office staff fall outside the Public Service Commission, and the Post Office can therefore make a lot of rules on its own. However, in view of the fact that the administration falls outside the Public Service Commission, Mr. Rive, the Postmaster-General, is wearing two hats at the moment, and it is essential that he sets the example to South Africa by eliminating the wage gap entirely. He has the ability, he has the means, and he has the machinery to do this, and I think he should give a lead to the country now by using his office to bring about an elimination of the wage gap between the races. There is no reason whatsoever why a Coloured postman should receive any less than a White postman. The work is the same.

With regard to discrimination in pay as far as women are concerned, the basic rate of pay is the same, but as I understand it the progressive increases over the years are different. I think the time has come to remove those differences.

I have now dealt with the tariff increases and I have referred to the discrimination in salaries. Another leg of the amendment concerns the SABC-TV, as far as biased reporting over radio and TV is concerned. We have the situation this year that radio and TV fall under the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. He is now responsible for policy. The hon. member for Sandton, who has been our spokesman on this subject for some time, will deal with radio and TV at length.

The fourth leg of the amendment relates to the violation of rights of members of the House. I refer to the amendments to the 1972 Post Office Act.

This matter has been the subject of controversial discussions in the House, namely the interception of mail and telephone calls of members of the House. Hon. members virtually laughs me out of court when I raised the matter back in 1978 and here I want to refer to my speech at that time (Hansard, Vol. 72, col. 3081)—

What happened then? The hon. member for Worcester, Mr. Palm, who is no longer here, had the audacity to tell the House (Hansard, Vol. 72, col. 3084)—

[Interjections.] At that stage the hon. the Minister said (Hansard, Vol. 72, col. 3093)—

Here we have a clear assurance from the hon. the Minister and, due to the controversy which has taken place in this House, I shall have to call again upon the hon. the Minister to account to this House for his policy with regard to the amendment of the 1972 Act. This hon. Minister is responsible for postal services, for telephones and for letters. Therefore I think the onus falls on this hon. Minister and it is his duty, whether any other Cabinet Ministers or outside agencies have any right to interfere, to protect members of this House and members of the public with regard to the interception of their mail and the listening in to telephone calls. No doubt the hon. member for Houghton will take an opportunity in this debate to take the matter further.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Hillbrow flabbergasted one again completely this afternoon, as the PFP usually does, with the remarks he made. I do not want to dwell on all the points raised by the hon. member, because he listed so many figures that one would have to read the whole budget book again to deal with all of them. The hon. member admitted that the Post Office should be managed according to business principles. If one accepts this, the hon. member then said that the tariff increases of 1 February should be revised. If we examine the business principles in accordance with which the Post Office should be operated, we can see in the Postmaster-General’s report, under “Statistics”, that the net profit to total net assets ratio and the net profit to operating expenditure ratio have weakened considerably since 1975. If one takes this into consideration, then surely one has no option. In that case surely one must do something to one’s revenue figure to rectify this ratio. After all this is an accepted business principle in every business enterprise. Then the hon. member flabbergasted me again. As with all the other Votes they have discussed, whether it be the Railways, pensions, salaries or the Post Office, he suddenly used the gold bonanza here as well to rectify everything in South Africa. This gold bonanza, this pie in the sky which they see and which we have often heard about, is not really as big as they have been trying to imply. The gold bonanza must now be used to rectify all tariff structures in South Africa. I do not wish to spend much time on this hon. member because I do not think it would be worthwhile. He has already received the necessary replies in respect of bugging from the hon. the Prime Minister and from the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, and I do not wish to add anything to that.

Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House wish to congratulate the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications most sincerely on the introduction of his first postal affairs budget. You will see that some of us on this side of the House are wearing a little flower. The hon. the Minister has instructed us never to speak in the Post Office budget without a frangipani flower in our lapels. He has set the example. Financially this budget of the hon. the Minister is just as fragrant as this flower. That is why we are glad to wear one.

What can one say about a budget such as the one that has been introduced here? The first feeling one has is one of gratitude to Mr. Louis Rive and his team, gratitude to Mr. Rive himself in particular because he succeeded in assembling a management team in which there is place only for the best man in the right place, a management team geared to managing the Post Office, and not only to interpreting and applying the laws and regulations. By giving this budget my wholehearted support I want to tell Mr. Rive on behalf of this side of the House that we and the people of South Africa see what he and the people working with him are doing. We also want to tell him: “Carry on the good work.”

What does one say about a budget of this nature in which for the umpteenth time no tariff increases have been announced and in which for the first time more than R1 000 million, viz. R1 090 million is expected in revenue and a capital amount of approximately R425 million is being budgeted for?

Because it is once again an excellent budget, I thought fit to deviate somewhat from the usual vein in this debate and to draw this House’s attention, firstly, to the role that could be played by the Post Office in the South African strategic and economic set-up. Secondly I want to conjure up in my mind’s eye what the public and the business world can expect of the Post Office in the next decade or two in the form of sophisticated services.

In the work of Prof. Renwick—he is a theological historian—he replies to the question why the Christian doctrine was spread so easily among the peoples of the Mediterranean Sea at the beginning of the Christian era. He said by way of summary that it was because of the political unity and the stability of the Roman Empire which caused commerce and the economy of the countries around the Mediterranean Sea to flourish. And even more so because communication among the communities in these countries facilitated by the better roads and easier sea passage which stemmed from the flourishing economy, made this possible. These findings are applicable to South Africa as well.

This budget, its scope and the enterprise it represents did not simply spring from nowhere. It grew out of the political stability South Africa has enjoyed under the National Party Government in particular during the past few decades. It also grew out of the economic prosperity which was gradually built up. The communications industry in itself has become an indispensable link in South Africa’s total economic and political strategy. Just as it was 2 000 years ago, it has become a medium with which to connect people with one another and to allow communities and peoples to communicate with one another. It is an unbiased medium by means of which messages can be relayed. Today communication has become a watchword in interpersonal and international relations.

In this regard the Post Office can be an invisible and impartial catalyst of interpersonal and international relations. I believe that in this way the Post Office can be an extremely important link in the establishment of a constellation of States in Southern Africa. The Post Office can render a service to the States of Southern Africa and Africa and be the channel of communication by which they can link up with a world-wide communications network. The political stability in South Africa and South Africa’s economic strength create communication possibilities for the people of South Africa and the nations of Southern Africa and Africa that are in many cases beyond the reach of their economic capacity. By making communications available the Post Office can make a great contribution to the economic prosperity of the various States and their peoples.

Over the years the Post Office has gradually converted its original telephone service of far more than 100 years ago from manual exchanges to electromagnetic automatic exchanges. This automization process is still in progress. As a result of technological vision and sound planning the process of conversion took place with a minimum of disruption and at a minimum additional cost in comparison with that of other countries in the world—one could refer to Switzerland in this regard.

Broederstroom does not have anything of this nature.

Broederstroom is still too far. The hon. member for Boksburg will discuss Broederstroom.

With the same technological vision and expertise as well as sound planning the Post Office is still keeping pace with technological development, particularly in the sphere of micro-electronics. I see this budget as the prelude to an era of electronification in the postal services of South Africa. There is an electronification programme according to which half of the services will be electronic by 1995 and all the services by the end of the century. With this budget as the point of departure and a status quo dispensation this House would have to approve between R10 000 million and R15 000 million in operating expenditure and between R5 000 million and R6 000 million in capital expenditure over the next 10 years.

This is money which will, after all, have to come out of the pockets of the public and the business world somehow. That is why I believe that it is only reasonable for us to give these people, the public and the business world, a preview of what they can expect as a return in the form of services over the coming era of electronification. What awaits the telephone user? We use this instrument every day. Firstly there is possibly the gradual substitution of press button telephones for the old well-known dialling telephone. This will lead to far fewer wrong numbers being dialled. There will also be a view on the telephone which will indicate the number which has been called so that the user can ascertain that he has the correct number. It is even possible that the number of the incoming call will be visible on the viewscreen. This will virtually mean the end of the anonymous telephone calls we know so well.

If you visit your neighbour, you can issue an instruction to the electronic exchange which will then put the calls intended for yourself through to your neighbour’s number. I think the important aspect here is that you must not forget, when you come home, to cancel that instruction. If you do not do so, you will have problems with your neighbours. You would be able to speak to a second person while you are still busy with the first one you have called. You would be able to involve the second person in the discussion for conference purposes. Lastly a videodata apparatus could be envisaged, as explained by the hon. the Minister during his Second Reading speech. The Post Office is already carrying out an investigation in this regard. These are but a few of the possibilities which the telephone user can expect in future. He would be able to do all of this without an intermediary by being able to contact an electronic exchange directly.

Let us examine the second leg of these possibilities. Here I am referring to the business world. What can the business world expect? It is in this very field that the most revolutionary developments are possible. I want to make the statement that more than 50% of a developed country’s gross national product is contributed by the handling of information. This is most definitely the single largest source of a nation’s economic activities. The obvious conclusion to be drawn from this is that it is less expensive, quicker and more productive to convey information than to convey people. In this regard a tremendous amount of research is being carried out at present in European countries. I should like to mention a few examples in order to illustrate this to hon. members, as well as to come to my eventual recommendation and request to the hon. the Minister.

The first example I want to use as illustration is that of conference facilities, including video-studios with speech and television facilities, in the large centres of South Africa, where businessmen, directors of companies and others can get together to have conferences without having to leave their home centres, without it ever becoming necessary to convey people at great expense and over large distances to attend a meeting lasting one or two hours. As we heard in the Second Reading speech of the hon. the Minister, the Post Office is already investigating pilot sets in this regard.

A second example as illustration is the electronic postal service. This is a service by which large business enterprises with a great deal of correspondence, business enterprises which at present may have telex or other data services at their disposal—and at present there are already approximately 28 000 such business enterprises in South Africa—are able to process their correspondence electronically by means of a computer terminal and are then able to store this in the memory of the electronic exchange. Outside the peak hours of the Post Office’s telephone traffic this postal service is automatically transmitted to other users. An operation of this nature could drastically change the Post Office’s entire mail handling programme, with the inevitable implications. The hon. member for Hillbrow referred to the losses being borne by the mail handling system of the Post Office. However, this amounts to only 15% of the Post Office’s total receipts. By means of this system, through which electronic mail handling and the electronic handling of correspondence can be effected, the total financial structure and tariff structure of the Post Office could also change radically.

I shall refer to a final example. It is that of money transfer facilities. We know that almost everyone has current accounts or savings accounts at banks. Now it is being made possible for large employers to pay staff salaries by means of magnetic tapes to a terminal on their accounts at banks. Then the staff member receives only a pay slip. Telephone accounts, water and electricity accounts, loans and hire purchase payments, insurance premiums and many others can be debited to one’s bank account by means of an automatic process, with the aid of magnetic tapes. All that the client then receives is a receipt.

In addition groceries can also be bought at supermarkets by means of a debit card. The client’s bank account is then automatically debited by means of a terminal at the supermarket. All that he receives is a receipt.

Then there is a final possibility I can visualize. It is the automatic rectification of voters’ rolls by means of terminals at the office of the Receiver of Revenue and at local governments. Would the PFP not be delighted if their constituencies could have voters’ rolls that are up to date? Of course we do our own work. I do not know who does theirs. These are only a few of the possibilities, but they are in actual fact not castles in the air. These are realities which South Africa will have to take into account in the next decade or two.

There are problems attached to this new dispensation, problems such as those in connection with security, fraud, cost implications, vested interests that are affected, the standardization of systems, the adaptability of systems, etc. However, they are problems that can in fact be solved, and some of them have already been solved. I am referring, for example, to the International Standards Organization’s debit card which has already been standardized.

Now I should like to come to my recommendation and my plea to the hon. the Minister. I want to indicate that the problems I have just mentioned are not the greatest problems facing us. However, let me put it in this way. There cannot be a separate terminal for each bank in a supermarket. Nor can there be a separate terminal in each bank dealing with insurance. This is impossible. In that case a great deal of space would have to be allocated for terminals, and we as consumers would have to carry bags full of debit and credit cards with us. The problem lies in co-ordinated planning, co-ordinated standardization and co-ordinated adjustment techniques of these possible services awaiting us in the era of electronification. There is one common factor in all these facilities and that is that the Post Office will eventually have to provide the communication channels and all these connecting facilities for a system of this nature. Consequently this will require a joint effort by all business enterprises, a joint effort in which local management, departments and boards will also have to be involved.

I want to mention the following example to indicate how important co-ordination and planning is. Co-ordination and planning are of cardinal important because these possibilities, of which I mentioned only a few, can influence the overall planning of cities, buildings, traffic systems and transportation in a revolutionary way. There is even speculation that the Post Office, as we know it today, will disappear completely over the next 20 years on the introduction of these new techniques. This again brings me to the statement I made at the outset. The handling of information is responsible for 50% of the nation’s gross national product. That is why I say: Convey information and not people. This is a slogan of the era of electronification of the Post Office. The message for the future this budget holds for us all—and this is what I am advocating today too—is that a body must be established, machinery must be introduced which is able to effect coordination, planning, standardization and adjustment for the future in good time, wherever this is necessary. Perhaps the Post Office could be the prime mover because it has to provide the network and electronic liaison medium. Perhaps it should take the form of a communications board. I wish to advocate, in all earnest, that this be done, because otherwise we shall perhaps never be in a position to use the advantages of the electronic era ushered in by this budget.

I should like to conclude with a quote. I believe that Dr. Boyce will forgive me for using a quote he has also used in the past. This quote says in a nutshell what the electronification programme of the Post Office, of which the budget is the starting point, holds for the consumer and the business enterprise in the 10 to 20 years awaiting us. A certain Edwin B. Parker said as follows—

We on this side of the House give the Appropriation Bill which the hon. the Minister has introduced our whole-hearted support.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Wonderboom, who has just resumed his seat, has obviously taken over on that side of the House as the leading Government speaker on Post Office affairs and I wish him well in his new, elevated position. We notice that he and the hon. the Minister are both wearing frangipani flowers in their buttonholes. Indeed, the hon. member indicated that all members taking part in this debate on the Government benches would be wearing them. I presume that from now on, now that we are into the ’eighties, we are into the era of what we can call the “Flower-Power” budget. We sincerely hope it brings good things for the country as a whole.

I welcome the hon. the Minister to his new post. We on these benches wish him well. We congratulate him on his budget. However, as an Opposition we naturally have to pick the bones out of it. I am on record as describing this as an unspectacular budget. Obviously, there could not immediately after 1 February this year be any further tariff increases. Equally obviously we could not expect any surprises, and in fact there were none forthcoming yesterday. However, it is a good budget, not only because of the fact that there are no further shocks for the taxpayer, but also because it shows that the Post Office is doing a great deal of soul-searching and a tremendous amount of self-examination. The budget has many good features, which I shall touch on later.

I believe, too, that raw areas are exposed. It is the Opposition’s duty in this House to probe and explore these raw areas so as to ensure that errors may be corrected and that measures may be taken to avoid a repetition of mistakes. What are the main areas concerned? Firstly, there is without any doubt—and this is now the responsibility of the hon. the Minister—the bias of the SABC; secondly, I would refer to the increasing backlog of telephones; thirdly, the inadequacy of our postal services to meet the demand of the modern day State we are; and, fourthly, the staff situation which, I hasten to add, is being rectified to a great degree by this budget, but not sufficiently so. I therefore move as a further amendment—

1. (1) the persistent political bias of the radio and television services of the S.A.B.C.;
2. (2) the failure of the Post Office Administration to eliminate the long waiting list for telephone services; and
3. (3) the inadequate postal services.”.

I propose to deal first with the matter of staff. I want to compliment the hon. the Minister and the Administration on the statement that was made by the hon. the Minister in respect of the errors in the past and the plans to rectify those errors. I refer to the hon. the Minister’s speech of yesterday in which he clearly made a statement which, I believe, we need to repeat here today, viz.—

That is an area of discontent which has been exposed and identified by the hon. the Minister and the department, and for that I give them full credit. However, I believe that now every effort has got to be made to retain staff and the steps that have been outlined by the hon. the Minister will help materially in this regard. They must, however, do more than just help. We must stop the loss of trained personnel, because we must be constantly reminded of the high cost of training competent staff today.

Salary increases have been announced, but no details have been given. The hon. the Minister told the House yesterday that the staff complement has increased by 3,4%, to a total of 73 525 employees. Let us assume for the purpose of the exercise that this increase is maintained. As a comparison, it is interesting to note that there is an increase of approximately 30% envisaged in the salary and wage bill for 1980-’81. From page 2 of the estimates which were laid upon the Table yesterday it will be noted that there is an increase of some R70 million under the item “Salaries and Wages”, but when one has adjusted these items in respect of the salary adjustment allowance, which amounts to R29 million and has to be added to the figure for 1979-’80 and one also takes into consideration the new service bonus, which amounts to R31 200 000, it actually means that there is a difference of some R72 500 000 which is the increase that is going to be passed on during the ensuing year by way of salaries, allowances and the service bonus. This figure is up by 28% on the previous year. We want to know what the average percentage increase is that is going to be passed on to the staff? I quite understand the hon. the Minister’s dilemma. He has a problem because, like the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs, he does not want the private sector to know exactly what is happening in his house because he feels that if the private sector knows this it will come along and, to put it bluntly, pinch his staff. However, Parliament must know what we are paying for. Parliament is entitled to know the approximate or average increase across the board. Therefore I think the hon. the Minister must give us a figure.

He has pulled wool over our eyes. [Interjections.]

We cannot allow the House to rely on guesswork.

How can we guess? Do not keep secrets from us.

Mr. Speaker, these two hon. members must allow me to make my own speech. I trust that the new salary scales will do much towards reversing the unfortunate trend of ever-increasing staff losses. As each year goes by we find that this trend escalates. 13 short of 9 000 people left the employ of the Post Office last year as compared with 7 789 during the previous year.

In the modern day context telephones are the life-blood of a nation’s communications. I accept that we have more telephones than we have ever had before, but I must remind the Post Office that a year ago, during the then budget debate, a certain statement was made. In this regard I refer to my Hansard of last year, column 2926. When speaking on the back-log in telephones, I said—

The mere fact that the Postmaster-General has said that that is what they aim for, delights me, and I must warn the hon. the Minister, and through him possibly also the Postmaster-General, that we shall be knocking this one each and every year until we get this result.

Well, here I am and I am knocking.

Was it 48 hours?

48 hours from the time of application. I am knocking. What do we find this year? The waiting-list has now increased by 32 000, which takes the total number on the waiting-list to the astronomical figure of 99 000. Of the 32 000 increase 15 800, approximately half, are for the Black areas, which leaves 16 200 for all other areas as compared to the 6 000 this time last year. We are repeatedly assured that the economy is on the upswing. If this is in fact the case, the demands for more and more telephones will multiply daily, and adequate planning must therefore be instituted now in order to meet these demands. We seek and call for an undertaking that urgent steps will now be taken to curb what I term “back-log inflation”, because this back-log inflation can cripple our economic development unless we can get the reins on it quickly.

I now turn to postal services. An examination of the estimates discloses that an anticipated operating shortage of R63 197 000 is what is expected for the financial year 1980-’81 as opposed to the estimated final loss of R48 718 000 for the current year. This compares very unfavourably with the anticipated surplus of R182 882 500 for the financial year 1980-’81 in respect of telephone services. If we go on at this rate, the day will come when we will kill this fatted calf. Let us look at the percentages. The losses in postal services are expected to increase by 29,72%, while the profits on telephone services are expected to increase by 28,17%. Hence my remark about the fatted calf. I must ask myself whether we are not chasing our own tails, because ultimately the one will catch up with the other and then the hon. the Minister will be in serious trouble. I warn the hon. the Minister that postal services are shrinking and not expanding, and this is not the answer to the problem. Our postal services must be expanded. One of my colleagues will deal with that in greater detail later.

Now, Sir, having kicked it around a bit, let us say a few words of praise for both the annual report and the budget, because I think they are due. Firstly, I want to say that the Postmaster-General’s introduction to this annual report is to my mind magnificent. I mean this very sincerely. It is encouraging that a man who is heading an organization like this can say: “The quality of our services has improved to the point where it can be described as reasonably good.” That is very fairly put.

Secondly, I believe that the new deal for the staff is to be welcomed. Firstly, the identification of management potential is good news. Secondly, the introduction of the service bonus is obviously also good news. Thirdly, we welcome the hon. the Minister’s announcement that the wage gap is to be narrowed, because this is a must. The introduction of containers for sale for parcel post over the counter in post offices is also a welcome measure, and as regards the completion of the process of complete autonomy for the Post Office, we are pleased that this aim and object has been achieved at long last.

We are delighted with the news and announcement in respect of official staff housing schemes for both Black and White employees. We are equally delighted with the introduction of the new electronic exchanges, the improvement in non-White services and the improvement in local and international telex services. We are also pleased to see the self-financing component of capital expenditure is held at 56,1% where it was anticipated last year that it would not be less than 58% for this year. I raised this point last year as well. The hon. the Minister may not remember it, but his predecessor will certainly remember my comments.

Having said that, I now wish to turn to the SABC and I want to say at the outset that I take the strongest possible exception to the fact that the annual report of the SABC was only laid on the Table of this House only yesterday afternoon.

Don’t be so tough.

I shall get “tough”. I shall get very “tough”. It left us precious little time in which to study it thoroughly. I trust that we shall be given more time in future. I also want to say, for the benefit of the hon. member who says: “Moenie so kwaai wees nie” that this is typical of the arrogance of that corporation, because arrogant is all that it is. It is an arrogant corporation and is nothing more than the arm of the NP. The SABC is nothing but the tool of that party, no more and no less. It is governed by the Breeders for the Broeders and of the Broeders. Its newscasts can only be described as NP rallies, and I do not think that there is a country in the world where Ministers are exposed through the medium of television to the extent that they are in South Africa. I am surprised that an hon. Minister does not feel ashamed of the fact that he has to go and sit there day after day, in the room across the way from here, making inane statements and that he does not ask himself whether what he is saying is news. Is it really news? Does the public out there really swallow every party political announcement as being an item of news? I cannot see that at all. Why is it that the SABC considers that almost any statement, however trivial it may be, that comes from a Minister is news? Do the gentlemen in that ivory tower not realize that there is a great, big world out there where things are happening that are of interest to people?

They must put Punt Janson on the “box” more often.

They must do that. They must put him on the “box” more often, and if he behaves like he did last night, that will be the end of him.

Page 83 of the annual report of the SABC sets out “News guidelines”. I managed to get to this bit of hilarity last night. The statements contained under this headline are nothing short of amazing and amusing. I want to quote from this document of which every hon. member has a copy. It states on page 83—

[Interjections.] Heavens above! Before that they say—

I hope the gentlemen in that ivory tower squirm when they read this. On the following page, page 85, we get this little snippet of information—

We are all right—one each week! Well, if you feed the baby once a week, I promise you it is going to die of malnutrition, and that is exactly what is happening to this baby. Last night—I do not know whether it was because this debate was coming—was the first time that I have seen a sensible newscast. We had news of this budget. The hon. the Minister was interviewed. Fine. It was news.

Do you blame me?

It was news because this budget was presented. But what happened then? We then went out into the world and joined a satellite link-up and we received six or seven items of news. We saw the fire in which ten or 11 old ladies were killed in London. We received a gold price commentary from the Paris Bourse and on the London bullion market. We looked at the American NBC report on the Illinois primaries in the presidential race. We saw the Geneva meeting on the boycott of the Moscow Olympics. We saw an interview with a Lions rugby player, Carleton, regarding his problem with the Wigham town council and his teaching post. We even saw Muhammad Ali on the comeback trail. We received news via satellite. Why can we not have that every day of the week?

Why?

Because news is happening out there every day of the week. That is why. These items were interspersed with local news and a report on an interview with the Prime Minister. That was news. Why can every night’s newscast not be as well balanced as this? I hope the hon. the Minister is listening to me. There is one thing I have repeatedly asked for, and it is not too much to ask. Why can the word “comment” not be put on the screen when comment is being given? Why must we have Mr. Cliff Saunders blurbing it all out as news? He makes comment. Comment is comment and news is news. The public is getting sick and tired of comment being put across as part of a news-cast. It is commentary. It is opinion; so let us have it reflected as opinion and not as news. [Interjections.] Hon. members might tell me, by the way, what seat Mr. Saunders will be fighting to get into this House in the next general election. [Interjections.]

I come finally to dubbing. This has got nothing to do with bias, but quite honestly when I see the futility of dubbing French and German material into English and the English into Afrikaans, it amazes me. This to me is stupidity in the extreme. Are we keeping people in jobs in the dubbing studios? I want to call again on the hon. the Minister—I know it is shrugged off by the moguls in the Ivory Tower—to investigate the situation.

Be a man and “vat hulle”!

In our country, why can we not have the image on the screen in the English language and if it is necessary to dub into Afrikaans, or alternatively into English if the play is in the Afrikaans idiom, we can have two sound tracks. [Interjections.] The other sound track can run on a FM frequency. All the individual has to do is to turn up his radio volume and turn down the volume of the television. It can be done. It was done with the Leon Spinks fight. If one wants to enjoy a rugby match, do it the way I do. Turn down the English commentary and turn up the volume of the Afrikaans commentary on the radio. Believe you me, that is the way to enjoy a rugby match.

Mr. Speaker, I shall deal with some of the matters raised by the hon. member for Umhlanga during the course of the few remarks I have to make. Looking around me it is obvious the Government members believe in flower-power, as I see that all the Government speakers during the Second Reading are in full flower today!

We would like to wish the hon. the Minister well on the introduction of his first budget. We know that the hon. the Minister will give this important portfolio his undivided attention. The budget is another milestone in the history of the department and there is much of merit in the budget. The annual report is well documented. In addition, in dealing with the 1978-’79 year we have found the historical portion of the report most interesting and valuable.

*I should like to congratulate the Postmaster-General on his acceptance of a second important position, outside the province of his position as Postmaster-General. I am referring to the position occupied by Mr. Rive with regard to the development of Soweto. To devote the necessary attention to this important task, will require time and hard work. We are grateful to Mr. Rive for his having accepted this major task. He and his family will have to make very great sacrifices to enable him to succeed in both tasks. That he will indeed succeed, we do not doubt for a single moment.

†We notice that a record number of 200 000 telephones will be connected to the network. However, despite the increase, applications on hand total approximately 99 000. It is absolutely vital that the backlog be eradicated urgently. In many cases a telephone is a necessity. Moreover, if people have telephones, it often leads to a saving of fuel. It stands to reason that often a matter which can be discussed over the telephone can save the parties having to drive by car to meet each other. The extra amount to be spent in providing extra telephones will give the economy an extra boost and at the same time will earn the department substantial extra revenue. If one takes the backlog of 99 000 telephones—and I accept it is not all backlog; some are current applications—and they are installed, and assuming each telephone yields an average of, say, R200 per year, the additional revenue to the Post Office will be approximately R20 million per year.

The hon. the Minister must make it a priority in his term of office to eliminate the backlog as a matter of extreme urgency. According to newspaper reports the general secretary of the Posts and Telegraphs Association said that in 1979 a massive number of 15 037 full-time Post Office workers resigned, a number which is equivalent to 20,3% of the total staff complement. I do not know how accurate that figure is. I obtained it from a newspaper report, but it seems to differ from the figure the hon. the Minister gave yesterday. Maybe these figures relate to different time periods. This is an alarming state of affairs. Obviously the reasons for the resignations fall into various classes. These resignations are perturbing and very costly, because it is costly to train staff and then to lose their services after they have been properly trained. It is obviously not good for the morale to have this level of resignations. This matter needs urgent attention and must be fully investigated. Obviously the department is not able to compete with salaries in the private sector, but everything possible must be done to discourage these resignations. We believe that more competent married women will remain and rejoin the department if the hon. the Minister can persuade the hon. the Minister of Finance to tax married women separately. That will do much to encourage married women to play their part to the fullest extent in the economy. I think the hon. the Minister should seriously consider this in view of the staff shortages he has in his department.

We welcome the introduction of a housing scheme for White staff and we look forward to obtaining the further details the hon. the Minister has promised to furnish in due course. We are also pleased to see that the department will help deserving Black officials to obtain residences of their own under the 99-year leasehold scheme. We notice that the hon. the Minister requests R1 million for this purpose. The question I should like to ask the hon. the Minister is how it is envisaged that the R1 million will be spent. Will it go towards deposits, while the building societies are putting up the balance? In other words, if the building societies granted, for example, 80% bonds and the Government advanced, say, a deposit of 20%, it would mean that R5 million’s worth of housing could be provided, R1 million coming from the State and R4 million coming from the building societies. I wonder if the hon. the Minister could tell us whether that is in fact the intention, because if it is the intention to build R1 million’s worth of housing only, it will be worth much less than the proposition I have just made in terms of which the State’s R1 million could, together with the assistance of the building societies, build R5 million’s worth of housing. We believe that housing and home-owners are absolutely vital to ensure permanency in employment and stability in South Africa. A home-owner is a person with a stake and with a very real interest in the welfare of the country and who is prepared to put his shoulder to the wheel. We have no doubt that by promoting home-ownership the department will ensure more stability and less turn-over in staff.

I should like to deal with just one other matter. I am pleased to see that there are so many capital projects that have been proceeded with, but I should like the hon. the Minister and the Postmaster-General to come to Port Elizabeth to see for themselves the urgent necessity for a new post office for Port Elizabeth. The site for a new post office was bought some years ago for approximately R1 million. The present post office was opened on 25 June 1900, and after 80 years it is a very reasonable request that a city the size of Port Elizabeth should have a modern and up-to-date post office with all the accompanying facilities. A new post office would not be a luxury. In the case of Port Elizabeth it is an absolute necessity. I understand that at one stage the department was sympathetic in that a site was bought and professionals were instructed to give attention to it. But on 18 February 1977 I was advised that because of financial considerations the new post office building had to be held in abeyance. Last year, I understand, there was some delay which was caused by the Port Elizabeth municipality. I should like to put it to the hon. the Minister that even if one were to go ahead now to erect a new post office, taking into account the time delay in appointing professional people to do the detailed planning, the quantity surveying, the submission of tenders, it would still take at least three years before a new post office could be completed. That would be if things were done post haste.

Like the postman I am now knocking on the door of the hon. the Minister. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central will send him a telegram. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth North will invite him personally. The hon. member for Newton Park will telephone him. In case the hon. the Minister still has any hesitation, the hon. member for Algoa will send him a telex message. In other words, the hon. the Minister and the Postmaster-General both have a gilt-edged invitation to visit Port Elizabeth. As we are of course dealing with inflation our communication with the hon. the Minister is now and in this debate. It is a verbal invitation directed to him personally. We hope he accepts, and we are even willing to contribute towards his air fare.

With these few words, Mr. Speaker, I just want to say we will oppose the Second Reading of this Bill. We will instead support the amendments moved by both the NRP and the PFP. [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Hillbrow is making a big mistake by moving here today that the Second Reading of the Bill under discussion will not be agreed to unless the Government provides an unbiassed and objective radio and television service. Does the hon. member for Hillbrow not know that it is not the budget of the SABC that is at all at issue here today, but the budget of the Post Office? How can the hon. member criticize the SABC here and try to use that criticism as an argument against agreeing to the Post Office budget? [Interjections.]

The annual report of the SABC has in fact been laid on the Table, but it does not affect the Post Office budget at all. The hon. member for Umhlanga is making the same mistake here by trying to drag his criticism of the SABC into the Post Office budget.

Once again today, as was to be expected, the hon. member for Umhlanga launched an attack on the SABC in a theatrical way. [Interjections.] He came up with all sorts of accusations. For instance, he said that the SABC is nothing but an instrument of the NP. [Interjections.] I want to deny this. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Umhlanga is taking a prejudiced view of the SABC and its television service. I am of the opinion that the hon. member for Umhlanga has been afflicted with objective blindness. [Interjections.] Nothing is further from the truth than the statement which the hon. member made here today. [Interjections.] I now want to use facts to show that the hon. member’s accusations are incorrect [Interjections.]

News commentators on the TV service do not reflect their own standpoints to us.

Oh, so?

Nor do they reflect the standpoint of a political party or of the Government. [Interjections.] The standpoint that they reflect, is the standpoint of the SABC. [Interjections.]

Oh, really?

Now what is the standpoint of the SABC?

It is Piet Meyer’s standpoint.

It is the standpoint of the NP. [Interjections.]

The SABC simply voices a South African standpoint, a pro-South African standpoint.

That really is rubbish.

When the SABC does this, it takes into account the large variety, the large political variety of people in this country. The SABC also gives its commentary after considering the broad viewing public which it must take into account.

Tell me another one.

The SABC’s ideal is to inform viewers and listeners and to place matters into perspective in such a way that each person can draw his own conclusions. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Umhlanga apparently does not have the ability to draw his own conclusions. [Interjections.] There is no question of influence or indoctrination to one side or the other when the SABC presents programmes on the radio or on television. Criticism of background commentary and other programmes in which current affairs are placed in their broad context, emanate from antiquated ideas about the functions of communications media, particularly the function of television. Television is no longer the old newsreel which we had in the early ’fifties which merely gave a visual image of the events. The world in which we are living today, is becoming increasingly complicated, and in this complicated world the demands on the news media are becoming ever greater. The same holds good for television and a television service is expected to explain and interpret. Television must explain events and spell out their implications. Does the hon. member not understand this? Is he perhaps still behind the times as in the days of the newsreel? [Interjections.]

Order!

Audiences that watch television, expect the service to report events so as to make the news meaningful. Throughout the world television is moving more and more in the direction of not only reflecting news, but interpreting it meaningfully.

Yes, that is the commentary!

Perhaps those hon. members are very much in need of us informing them correctly and interpreting things for them, because they cannot interpret them themselves.

The viewing public are turning more and more to television for this purpose as the following figures indicate. I am referring to the purpose of wanting a meaningful interpretation of events. In Britain the audience for a typical news and background programme is larger than the total daily circulation of all the British newspapers. In the USA, a recent survey showed that 75% of the country’s population obtains its news chiefly from television because they have the interpretation of the news there.

The hon. member for Umhlanga took the hon. the Ministers to task because they appear on television so often. [Interjections.] I want to ask the hon. member how it could be otherwise, because the Government of the day or the man who is in control, is surely the newsmaker because he is the decision-maker.

The only newsmaker there is?

That is why the Ministers are continuously in the limelight on all news media, and this is the way things are done throughout the world. The code applied throughout the world is that ministerial and factual declarations concerning policy and the application of policy are treated as news and broadcast as such. Surely it is ridiculous to complain about this. After all, this is what the viewing public, the news public, want News items are judged entirely on their newsworthiness, and if a statement by a Minister is not newsworthy enough, it is not used.

You could have fooled me.

Surely hon. members opposite cannot expect to appear on television more often or to receive more attention on the radio than they do at present. Surely they are not newsmakers, except when they split their party now and again. [Interjections.] Surely they have nothing to tell the people of South Africa. [Interjections.] We know that they lack imagination … [Interjections] … and after all, people who lack imagination are not newsmakers. That is why they seldom make the front page of newspapers, except when they break away from a party now and again.

Mr. Speaker, may I put a question to the hon. member?

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately I cannot reply to a question now. [Interjections.]

Not even an objective, reasonable question?

The hon. members of the Opposition must not be angry with the SABC if they and their leaders are not newsworthy and possibly not roadworthy either. The hon. friends over there on the opposite side should acquire more newsworthy people in their ranks, people with greater powers of imagination. Then they would have more news value and the television service and the SABC radio service would take much more notice of them. The television service judges newsworthy events in the same way as the newspapers do. The television service does not have a different criterion or norm. The SABC took a random test and discovered that newspapers put Ministers’ speeches in a more prominent position more often than the SABC does. In other words, the newspapers give greater prominence to them than the SABC does.

Which newspapers?

Your newspapers.

This was proved in a random test, and it referred to all newspapers. “Current Affairs” is often criticized too. We do not want to say that everyone in the SABC wears a halo and that everything that they do is perfect and correct. They can make mistakes too. However, it is not a mortal sin when, for instance, the SABC portrays the South African viewpoint in “Current Affairs”. Every broadcasting station in the world does the same. They reflect the view of their country, whether it be America or Malawi. This is what the SABC has always done. It has always put South Africa’s standpoint.

I am sorry that those hon. members have caused me to stray so far from my original speech. [Interjections.] I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the hon. the Minister today on his first budget. This can be called a bouquet-budget. That is why hon. members will see that we are all wearing flowers in our lapels too.

“Fancy-pantsy!”

The budget proves that the Post Office is one of our country’s most progressive Government departments, and we want to congratulate the department on that. However, I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on the fact that he has taken the SABC under his wing now too. As a former journalist, the hon. the Minister is extremely well equipped with a knowledge and understanding of media affairs and of course this includes the radio and television services. Since we last debated this matter, a new chairman has been appointed to the SABC, and I am referring to Prof. Wynand Mouton of Bloemfontein. On this occasion, I want to extend my heartiest congratulations to Prof. Mouton, who lives in my constituency, on his appointment to this very important position. We know Prof. Mouton, and we are aware of his skills, his level-headedness and scientific mind. He is an extremely well balanced person. Consequently, we foresee that he is going to carry out this task with distinction.

I want to come to the role of the SABC now, and then I should like to hear what the Opposition has to say about it. I think they will be negative in this regard too, because their entire approach is a negative one. The important role that the SABC plays, is to promote good human relations in this complex community of ours.

Ah!

The SABC is a powerful instrument for impressing upon all the people of this country the reality of South Africa’s threatened situation. There is a great need for this because many of our people are ignorant and because many of them are still living in a fool’s paradise in this regard. The radio and television services of the SABC can become the most important instrument in our struggle for survival, because the SABC is in a position to bring the following message home to all the people of this country: If the residents of South Africa pool their energies and unite through good relations, co-operation, dialogue and contact, no threat to the country will be too great to defy. Today we want to ask the SABC as well as the hon. the Minister to propagate this message fearlessly at all times.

I want to point out why I think that the SABC’s television and radio services can play such an important role in this regard. An average of almost 10 million adult listeners tune in to the radio services of the SABC every day. 5,5 million of these are Black, almost three million are White and one million are Coloureds and Asians. Every day, almost three million adult viewers watch television programmes—two million of these are Whites, almost 600 000 are Coloureds and Asians and 285 000 are Blacks. Once the Blacks have their own channel in 1982, the expected number of viewers will increase by between one and three-quarter million to two and a quarter million. Consequently, the SABC has a vast audience of approximately 13 million adult viewers and listeners every day, which could increase to 15 million in 1982. In addition, I want to tell the Opposition that the SABC has the credibility for propagating this message of good human relations because it is aloof from politics.

The SABC has received a directive from its licencees. That directive is to promote good human relations in this country. We are well aware of how scrupulously the SABC carries out this directive. It has an extensive network of domestic radio services in every language, which broadcast for a total of 2 100 hours every week. In fact, it is true that radio and television have become powerful media in millions of homes in the country for propagating the message of good human relations to the people of South Africa—White, Coloured and Black.

Television and radio in this country have become an indispensable part of the interethnic dialogue on national and ethnic affairs. When one listens to programmes like “Rekenskap”, “Spitstyd” and “Monitor” on the Afrikaans service and “Radio Today” and “Audio Mix” on the English service, or when one listens to the actuality programmes, one realizes what an indispensable part of the inter-ethnic dialogue radio and television have become. In this way, a tremendous contribution is being made towards better dispositions and sound racial relations in our country.

If the Opposition wants to be fair, they will admit that the SABC is playing a very important role in this country in this regard. Recently, many requests are being made of the Whites, and the Whites alone are continually being exhorted to promote good relations in this country. I want to ask the SABC to impress this on people of colour so that they can also have a contribution to make and so that good race relations is a two-sided affair.

The history of South Africa is entering one of its most critical phases now. The concepts of “continued existence” and “survival” are now taking on real meaning for the first time, because whether we are going to have peace and rest or conflict and confrontation in South Africa will depend on what we are going to do in the next few years. Everything is going to depend on human relations and on dispositions of people towards each other. It is in this very sphere that radio and television can play such a tremendous conciliatory role.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister and the SABC to work on the establishment of a television channel for the Black people with all possible speed, because it is a matter of national importance. This second channel can make a vast contribution towards breaking down prejudice and misconceptions and eliminating misunderstandings between White, Black and Coloured so that the ethnic groups can be united against the communal threats directed at South Africa. It is also essential that the programmes which are going to be presented on this specific channel, will compare well with programmes on the existing channel. The enthusiasm of the Black man must not be suppressed by the idea that his service is of an inferior quality. We must encourage the Black man to watch that television service. I ask employers and other people to start planning now to provide television sets for Black people in compounds, dining-rooms, recreation halls, schools and on farms.

Apart from that, farmers on farms in particular can see that their Coloured and Black employees obtain a transistor radio at least. Then we will also have informed people in far off places and informed people are prepared people. This matter is such a worthy one that one wonders whether transistor radios should not be made available to Black and Coloured people at lower costs or on easier terms, because it is important and essential for everyone to receive the message that if the residents of this country pool their resources and stand together in regard to good relations, dispositions, co-operation, contact and dialogue, no threat to South Africa will be too great to defy.

Mr. Speaker, I find it very difficult to follow a speech which is so high in cynicism and so low in the true facts of the situation in so far as the SABC is concerned. I shall during the course of what I am going to say hopefully refute much of what the hon. Broeder has just said.

Order!

I mean the hon. gentleman who is also an hon. Broeder.

Order! The hon. member must refer to another hon. member as “an hon. member”.

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: Is it unparliamentary to refer to the hon. member for Bloemfontein North as a Broeder?

Order! I have often asked hon. members to refer to other hon. members as “hon. members”. That is all I have done, and the hon. member for Sandton must adhere to my ruling.

Certainly, Sir. Let me say, firstly, in dealing with the hon. member who has another capacity … [Interjections] … that I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his new capacity, but I hope that he does not follow in the footsteps of his predecessors who never admitted any fault in so far as the SABC was concerned, who never conceded that there was ever any bias in the SABC, who in the face of irrefutable evidence produced by this side of the House blindly and stubbornly maintained throughout their careers in the House that the SABC was objective, unbiased, the best in the West and certainly produced the most balanced news broadcasts that have been heard south of the Sahara.

It is the best channel in South Africa.

Attitudes of this nature which have been evidenced by the hon. the Minister’s predecessors in the House have created an aura of infallibility and perfection with which it has sought to clad the SABC.

The hon. the Minister has a great opportunity now, after taking up this new post, to serve the whole of South Africa, by admitting and rectifying the faults that are pointed out to him by this side of the House in so far as the SABC is concerned, to serve not only one section of the community, but to serve all the community that is South Africa today. He cannot but succeed in being better than his predecessors, because his predecessors, as we all know, in regard to the role they played in control of the SABC, were unimpressive, were incredibly bad and as cynical as the crocodile sitting on the edge of the river and saying to the impala: “It is so hot; do come in for a swim.”

There is a second congratulation I should like to extend to the hon. the Minister and the SABC, and that is that we have heard that there is going to be extra viewing time. I believe this is a good thing because I think it I is a medium which should be used for a greater period of time.

It will be more slanted in its objectivity.

I believe it will bring in greater revenue and that the more time allowed will give more scope for South African artistes. I believe that it is, furthermore, at last an acknowledgment that all adults do not go to bed at 22h30 sharp, as the hon. the Minister perhaps does.

I should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on a third aspect relating to the SABC. This aspect is in relation to his announcement in regard to the extension of the advisory board and his statement of intent to involve the private sector in the affairs of the SABC. This is a good thing and it will bring a certain breadth to the operations of the corporation, and I wish that idea well.

Finally, I should like to offer congratulations on the announcement made some while ago that as of October this year only one licence is going to be required per family. A very small number of people will be affected, but it is nevertheless a step in the right direction. It is logical, and should be welcomed.

I should like to welcome the new chairman of the Board of Governors of the SABC. I believe that he has a chance to bring new life to this corporation. He now has a chance to bring hope for better entertainment, a greater broadmindedness, and I wish him well in his post. But I want to read what I read over the weekend in the Sunday Express under the heading “new SABC boss in move to restore Nat unity”—

I now want to read something completely unrelated to what I have just read, and I should like to ask hon. members whether they agree with these sentiments. I shall tell them from where I am quoting as soon as I have finished—

And so it goes on. I ask: Are these the sentiments that that hon. Minister and hon. gentlemen across the floor who have other capacities would agree with?

Yes, of course they would.

For many years this has been the stated policy of the Broederbond and these are the words of the former chairman of the SABC Board of Governors, Dr. Piet Meyer. These are the views which he has sought over many years to impress upon the public of South Africa through propaganda medium of the SABC. This is the man, the chairman, who was long overdue to retire and who, thank heavens, is going now, who, over the last 20 years, has put the Broederbond first and South Africa second. This is the man who has turned the SABC into no more than an arm of the propaganda organization of the NP. This is the man who has turned the SABC into the voice of the far right. This is the man who has turned the SABC into the champion of White exclusivity under the guise of promoting racial harmony between races. Racial exclusivity shines through every broadcast that is brought into the homes of South Africans through the medium of television. This is the South African, the retiring chairman, who has turned the organization and stuffed it with his fellow travellers, with people who are politically motivated first and last. I should like to read a second quotation. It comes from J. H. P. Serfontein’s book called Brotherhood of Power (page 180)—

[Interjections.] Please keep quiet.

It is a traitorous Afrikaner you are quoting now.

Order! Hon. members must stop making so many interjections.

I quote further—

Which I quoted earlier—

According to item 28 of the minutes of the UR meeting of December 1, 1965, which dealt with “relations with non-Whites”, it was decided “that a letter should be sent to Broeder S. M. de Villiers in which he is thanked for the work done by Radio Bantu”. De Villiers was then chief of Radio Bantu.

In 1977, according to this book, there were 49 members of the Broederbond, and I think they are probably quite a few more today.

Which book are you quoting?

I am quoting from Serfontein’s book. I quote—

Does anybody deny that?—

I think he is in the Transvaal at the present time.

The who’s who of the Ivory Tower.

The Broeders on the SABC Board of Control are, amongst others, W. A. Maree (No. 3669). He is the gentleman who left Parliament for health reasons. The author goes on to say that SABC policy and strategy are decided by Breeders. How then can we believe the hon. member for Bloemfontein North when he says that the SABC promotes a broad South Africanism? That is twaddle. Not only is it twaddle; it is cynical in the extreme and bordering on the untruthful. That is why I say that I am disturbed when I read in the Sunday Express of this week a report that the new chairman of the SABC flew down to Cape Town as a senior member of the Broederbond in order to patch up a quarrel between that hon. Minister sitting over there and the hon. the Prime Minister. I want to say to Prof. Mouton in all honesty—I hope that he reads my words—that if this report is true …

It is not true.

Well, the hon. the Minister says it is not true. I am not sure if he has the knowledge to say this. However, if this report is true, it unfortunately reflects a sad state of affairs. I want to say that Prof. Mouton is now the chairman of what could be called a great public corporation. He should be, and I hope he will be, serving both English-and Afrikaans-speakers, both Indian and Coloured people, Black people, all the communities of South Africa, the whole kaleidoscope that in fact is South Africa With a new chairman an opportunity is now created to gain the confidence of all sections of the community, to acquire credibility for the corporation and to avoid a party political bias. The chairman will set the tone. I believe he should avoid political association and falling into a situation in which he is reported on in this way. His job is the development of the SABC, its information service, its unbiased—as it should be—reporting of events, its educational values and its value as entertainer, not the patching up of the quarrels between the hon. the Prime Minister and the hon. the Minister of Public Works.

Can’t you stop talking nonsense?

I believe one of the first aspects that must receive attention, is the drawing up of the news commentaries and the news broadcasts, both on radio and television.

I have only had time to look at one statement in the annual report of the SABC, because this report arrived on my desk only this morning. I want to join with the hon. member for Umhlanga in saying that it is really not efficient procedure to give a report to members on the day of the debate. I do believe it should be handed to us earlier next time.

Why do you not go and read the Act?

What does that have to do with the debate? I honestly think that if the hon. the Minister wants to interject, he should try to be intelligent. [Interjections.] I quote from page 15 of the report—

These are pious words. In the news broadcasts they often provide what we believe to be a distorted picture. I want to give an example. The SABC virtually ignored one of the main findings of the Cillié Commission report which was tabled in the House. This report dealt with the causes of the 1976 riots. I watched the news broadcasts. The SABC virtually blamed the riots on radical individuals and organizations, which, it said, were chiefly responsible for creating the climate in which those riots took place. In fact, the truth of the matter is that the commission found, as all hon. members here will know, that it was racial discrimination and other apartheid injustices which set the background for the riots. I can understand that those hon. members who are also here in another capacity, are reluctant to admit to the failure of NP party policy. I can understand that, but a cover-up of the root causes of one of the major conflicts in the latter part of this century in South Africa is not the function of the SABC. It is not the function of the SABC to blinker the public of South Africa.

Other major failings which require attention are its deafness to criticism, the blandness with which it projects itself to the public of South Africa as if they are the only people who know, who are in control and who will decide, and the dogged denial by the SABC of the right of people it has attacked to reply. I believe that that is not only a gross injustice, but also an infringement of the very freedoms we are supposed to be protecting in this society. If we are not trying to protect that sort of thing in this society, I do not know what those hon. members are doing in this House.

Give us an example.

Unlike other media, e.g. newspapers, the SABC is not responsible to anybody. It is not subject to the Press Council. It does not grant a right of reply to people it may have aggrieved. There is no redress against it other than going to the Supreme Court on a defamation case. It is impervious to the viewpoints put by other people. If hon. members want an example, I shall give an example, viz. the recent attack on the editor of The Post in Johannesburg, Mr. Percy Qoboza. This attack was made on this editor and on this newspaper by the television and radio and was projected to an audience far greater than his newspaper will ever reach. Yet he had no right of reply. I am not here to defend Mr. Qoboza’s attitudes. I do not even necessarily agree with his statements in his newspaper, but I say to attack a man and not to allow him the right of reply, is nothing short of shabby journalism. That is what it is.

You are bluffing nobody.

The hon. the Deputy Minister is interjecting. Could he stand up and ask a question if he has a problem?

Mr. Speaker, is the word “bluffing” parliamentary?

The hon. member may proceed.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Deputy Minister is making it difficult …

I will call the hon. the Deputy Minister to order if necessary.

Thank you very much.

On a point of order, Sir: Is it parliamentary to allege that another member is “bluffing”? The word “bluff” means to tell a deliberate lie. [Interjections.] Do not tell me to sit down, you pipsqueak!

That is not a point of order. The hon. member may proceed.

Is the hon. member for Yeoville entitled to …

If it is a point of order, I will withdraw the word “pipsqueak” so as to save time.

What the SABC needs is an ombudsman. It needs an independent complaints authority. It needs an authority where people can seek redress from being aggrieved. It needs somebody, some organization which is apart from the SABC and which can ensure that justice is dispensed to all the people. No wonder the SABC is losing some of its best men, e.g. Pat Rogers because of political frustration, Mr. Will Bernard in the last few months, Gary Edwards, Kevin Harris and Roger Hanson. They are all English-speaking people. They have left because of frustration. There are many other reasons for this staff drain, e.g. some are financial, another is the tight programme control which leads to frustration. There is also political frustration and a lack of job satisfaction. Because of the point I made relating to the Broederbond, many of the English-speaking people who work for the SABC do not for a moment believe they can actually get to the top.

You know that is not true.

They know there is a body superimposed upon the SABC which guides its fortunes.

Who is the racialist now?

This must stop. The corporation has got to move to create a greater confidence. A balance and freedom of expression should and must be allowed. [Interjections.] Sir, I am told my time is up.

Mr. Speaker, earlier we heard a lot about the flower-power of the hon. members opposite, but it looks to me that all of them have more or less turned into wallflowers, because we do not hear any defence from them. Firstly, I should like briefly to comment on some of the aspects the hon. member for Sandton has just raised, particularly the question with reference to Prof. Mouton. I would also like to call on the hon. the Minister to make it quite clear that if the report which the hon. member for Sand-ton referred to is not true, steps will be taken either by the hon. the Minister himself or by Prof. Mouton to refute the allegations. The one aspect which worries me about this matter is that all of a sudden we are now going to have somebody who is serving part-time as chairman of the Board of Directors of the SABC who is also the rector of a university. We cannot have that person having the other third of his time spent in going around to try to reconcile the faction fights within the NP. All of a sudden the hon. member for Von Brandis gets upset every time the Broederbond is mentioned. Can the hon. member tell me whether he qualifies to be a member of the Broederbond? [Interjections.]

They do not want him.

The hon. member for Von Brandis should rather be ashamed of himself and keep quiet.

The hon. member should not discuss people’s membership of the Broederbond. I do not think he can connect the Broederbond with the Post Office Appropriation Bill, and that is what is under discussion now.

I shall gladly comply with that request. Later, if I have time, I shall link the whole of the SABC with the Broederbond. Occasionally, when one goes and holds meetings in the platteland, particularly in the Free State and the Transvaal… [Interjections.]

Where? Where?

… it sometimes happens that an old gentleman stands up in the audience—usually towards the end of the speech—and asks why the Government grants permission for the price of fertilizer and other soil dressings constantly to be increased while the manufacturers of these commodities are showing immense profits. My experience is that it does not matter how one replies to that question. Even if one were to give full marks to the system of private enterprise and to the profit motive, in the end the questioner would still not be satisfied.

I listened attentively to the budget speech by the hon. the Minister yesterday. I have also made a study of the budget itself. It appears to me that even if one takes all that into account, even if one were to grant full marks to the Post Office for the business principles on which it functions, and even if one were to concede, furthermore, that the Post Office should indeed make profits and indeed succeeds in doing so—profits which should be utilized for further capital development—I nevertheless feel just like that old gentleman who is simply not satisfied with the answer. I am saying this, of course, with reference to the surpluses which already existed before the tariff increases became effective on 1 February this year. In any event, those increases have not yet had a chance to have an effect. What we are really concerned with here, is high telephone tariffs, etc. Here, for example, I also have in mind certain postal tariffs that were abolished long ago. Bulk postal tariffs is one of them. I still remember how, in earlier years, one could conduct election campaigns by distributing a vast quantity of literature by post at a discount of 25% on the normal postal tariffs. We have therefore now reached a situation where profits are indeed being shown. The question is, however: At whose expense? The cost of means of communication is an extremely important component of the general cost of living, and also has an obvious and active effect on the rate of inflation.

Although South Africa is experiencing a long-awaited economic revival, inflationary conditions are, of course, by no means excluded. One should therefore have liked to see the hon. the Minister giving consideration in this budget to the possible effect of his conduct and actions on the inflation rate. The hon. the Minister may well argue that he has not increased tariffs. That is in fact quite correct. It is true that the increase in tariffs that became effective on 1 February this year had been postponed for six months. They were originally to have come into effect on 1 October last year. However, we have not yet seen an overall picture of the effect of the increased tariffs. It will become clear within the next six months or so, however, what the actual effect of the latest tariff increases is going to be. That is what is really important. That is actually what we should be debating. To what extent are the latest tariff increases going to increase the inflation rate in South Africa?

In the meantime, however, one has to make the point that the activities of our postal and telecommunication services indeed have an active effect on the inflation rate. In the hon. the Minister’s speech, he quite rightly indicated certain problem areas. One of the problem areas to which he drew attention, was one that regularly makes its appearance, viz. the constantly rising cost of the postal services. It is true that we have modern sorting methods. But the postal services as such in South Africa are in actual fact shrinking. They are by no means expanding. Postal services are gradually being curtailed. Instead of a more widespread distribution of post-boxes in the streets, for example, the number is continually decreasing. Postal deliveries never become prompter, either. Agencies are being closed. There are also examples of post offices that are closed from time to time. It is true that as part of our modern way of life, the telex, the telephone and the telegraph have indeed become the new means of communication. However, there are times when one cannot but make use of the ordinary postal services.

I could perhaps just mention a practical example of this. It indicates clearly how dependent one can sometimes be on the postal service. At the same time it also clearly proves how inefficient the postal services can sometimes be. Last year—it was on a Thursday—I had to despatch a letter by express mail from Durban to Kuruman as a matter of necessity. Now, hon. members may perhaps say: “But look, Kuruman is to hell and gone. It is so far that it does not really matter at all.” [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr. Speaker, Kuruman is very far. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member must withdraw the words “to hell and gone”.

Mr. Speaker, I withdraw them. Perhaps I should at least point out that Kuruman is not quite as far as the Department of Information farm, Vrekver. [Interjections.] However, there is a daily air service to a place like Kimberley, and there is a daily rail and road transport connection with Kuruman. Eight days later, when I arrived there on a Friday, I was informed that my express mail letter had preceded me there by only a few hours.

Your address was wrong.

It may perhaps be true to say “we do get there, even if it be late”, but while such a motto may perhaps be a good one, it is not good enough for us. It is gratifying to be able to state that the hon. the Minister is indeed going to give due attention to the extension of telephone services in Black areas, and the upward movement among Blacks in the economic sphere, with the greater measure of literacy and learning among them, will lead to an immense explosion in the demand for more and better telephone services. It is true that in practice, the Post Office actually has a great deal of “public relations work”, to perform. This work has to be done to bring about liaison between the consumer and the Government. In some cases, when the service provided by the Post Office is poor, the fault is simply attributed to the Government. One should actually make an appeal to the Post Office at this stage to render prompt and efficient service to our Black population at all times, since otherwise this will only lead to unfavourable relations between White and Black.

I now wish to refer briefly to the SABC. One can make the remark, in all fairness, that the quality of the service is really poorer and I am referring to television in particular. The hon. member for Bloemfontein North, who is unfortunately not present at the moment, said sound human relations should be fostered. However, let us see whether this is indeed being done. Are good human relations being fostered when certain announcers actually make it their business to pronounce very ordinary words in such a way that it offends English-speaking people? I am not going to furnish a few examples. I am not going to mention the names of the announcers involved, however. They talk of “Katee” Myburgh when everybody knows it is “Cathy” Myburgh. They will also talk of Bishop “Ramsie” whereas everyone knows it is Bishop “Ramsay”.

That is petty.

It is not petty. That is precisely what they are doing. [Interjections.] However, when those very same announcers talk of Arabs, or use an Arabic word, for example, they do so with all courtesy and respect. When they talk of the Ayatolla Khomeini, they try to pronounce the name absolutely correctly. They do not say “Ayatolla Komenie” to rhyme with “dominee”. This is the sort of thing that is being done deliberately. [Interjections.]

Now I come to the hypocrisy in connection with Sundays. [Interjections.] It is pathetic. I am merely reflecting what is actually happening on TV. There is an absolute hypocrisy when it comes to the Sunday service. One gets Saturday afternoon’s speeches at party rallies, on Sunday night’s TV news, of course. Let me mention just one example to illustrate what I have said. When Gerde Coetzee and Leon Spinks box overseas, the whole world has to know that this little nation is not allowed to watch such things on TV on a Sunday, and that we have to wait until midnight before being allowed to see it. One is not allowed to see that sort of thing on a Sunday. However, if Jimmy Abbott and Kallie Knoetze box on a Saturday afternoon and the fight lasts only one or two minutes in any case, the fight is shown to TV viewers on the Sunday night news. Then we see the whole fight. This is done deliberately and it is in fact ridiculous hypocrisy. I do not intend saying any more about the SABC, since there are some other matters I wish to raise.

Another matter I wish to refer to—and perhaps I shall take it further at a later stage—is that consideration should be given to the possibility that at places such as the Natalia building of the Natal Provincial Administration, the organizations concerned should appoint their own staff to operate the switchboards. They prefer that themselves. They believe that if they have their own people in their service, they can expect a greater measure of loyalty from them and would also be able to exercise greater discipline over them than when these people are supplied by the Post Office. That is a reasonable request. I believe that a compromise should be reached in this matter. After all, for any business and any organization, the switchboard is in fact the shop-window and is responsible for doing major public relations work. It seems to me that the hon. the Minister is completely surprised. We shall forgive him. He is still new to this job.

I cannot understand your ignorance.

Evidently the position is that if one’s switchboard is of a certain size, one has to make use of Post Office staff and cannot use one’s own staff.

Mr. Speaker, very distasteful statements have been made here today. We have had personal attacks on people for whom I have the highest regard. I have not heard such a snide attack on Dr. Piet Meyer in years as the one we have had in this House today. It is absolutely scandalous.

I thought we were very mild. [Interjections.]

I want to tell that hon. member that Dr. Meyer and I were on the church council together for a long time and that if ever there were a true Christian, it is he. It is scandalous that people who do a great deal for culture and for our nation, are dragged in here in this way. [Interjections.] I also want to say with regard to Prof. Mouton, that when we were with him at the Bloemfontein University, as part of the education group, we got to know him as a dignified person. I do not know what organization he is a member of. That does not concern me. I want to say that we have the highest regard for Prof. Mouton. I know that he is one of those cultured people who is going to achieve a great deal in establishing good relations. This he has already done at the University of the Free State.

The whole attack today concerned the question of the Broederbond. The Post Office, of which the SABC is a part as far as services are concerned, is a fine, outstanding organization. Why has the other matter of the Broederbond been dragged into this? Hon. members will recall that the hon. the Prime Minister said last year that the hon. members opposite should not cause the Afrikaner too, to show opposition to the English organizations, the English cultural bodies. Hon. members dragged things in here again today in order to bring about a clash between Afrikaans-and English-speaking people. [Interjections.] It is specifically by means of radio and television that we want to build sound relationships in this regard.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. member a question?

No, Mr. Speaker. Unfortunately I have only 20 minutes. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. members must give the hon. member an opportunity to proceed with his speech.

I want to do an analysis today on the basis of facts. The fact is that there is a political bankruptcy on that side of the House. Why do they not come forward with facts about the true state of affairs with regard to the SABC?

On whose side are you?

I stand on the side of the NP. [Interjections.]

Which NP? [Interjections.]

Let us examine the position with reference to a scientific analysis carried out by Rhodes University. Would hon. members say that Rhodes University is a Broederbond University? They carried out a scientific survey and I now want to furnish the official figures listed by the Department of Journalism at Rhodes University with reference to the 1977 general election. They found, inter alia, that the NP was given 39% of the available time on TV during the 1977 election. The Opposition parties were given 61% of the time. Hon. members should bear in mind that these are not my figures, but the figures of the Department of Journalism at Rhodes University. [Interjections.] The NRP was given 24% of the available time. These figures come out of a scientific survey and it is the hon. members’ affair if they want to dispute them. The PFP was given 24% of the available time. The SAP was given 5% of the available time and the HNP, 8%.

Those figures exclude the time allocated to Ministers.

This was the state of affairs in respect of television appearances. I hope that the hon. member for Umhlanga is making a note of this so that he can deal with this matter more effectively in future. [Interjections.] The NRP was given 24% of the available time on TV, but how does this compare with the number of seats they won? [Interjections.] What was the position in respect of radio coverage during the 1977 election? I shall again furnish figures obtained by Rhodes University. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. member a question? [Interjections.]

Order! When I call for order hon. members must heed my call. Will the hon. member reply to a question?

No, Sir. Hon. members are interrupting me to such an extent that I almost do not have time to complete my speech. I am demonstrating that the Opposition, in spite of all the time they had on TV and radio, nevertheless fared very poorly in the election. The NP put up 51,5% of the candidates in the 1977 general election and received 51,5% of the available time on radio. The Opposition parties were given 49% of the time and put up 48% of the candidates.

The 1820 Settlers’ National Monument Foundation, which is surely not a Broederbond organization, found that the majority of English-speaking people regarded the SABC as the best objective news media in the country as far as political events are concerned. [Interjections.] Furthermore, 42% of the English-speaking people said that the SABC was the top medium for information in this particular field. Only 31% declared that the English Press was more reliable. Are these surveys correct or incorrect?

Prof. B. F. Hansen, an American professor who was also attached to Rhodes University, found that television was the most reliable medium in existence today. He placed the radio second and the Press took third place. These are the facts that came to light as a result of research.

However, let us take a look at what Market Research of Africa says. People are fond of quoting figures to show which of the NP’s leaders are popular and that type of thing. What did Market Research of Africa find? The SABC’s presentation of news is more reliable than that of the Press. Who is in complete agreement with that? The Whites. 55,7% said that it was more reliable than that of the Press. Only 15,3% disagreed. What did the Coloured people say? What did they say about this channel, which is being developed for the Coloured people to an increasing extent? 50,2% said that they agreed wholeheartedly that the SABC’s presentation of news was more reliable than that of the Press. 31,6% of the Asians said that they agreed complete that it was more reliable than that of the Press.

I can quote many more figures in this regard. Together with the Director-General, Mr. Swanepoel, who is sitting there, we are proud of what they are doing for us at present. The SABC is giving us a wonderful service. To amplify what was said here earlier, I just want to point out that if the NP holds four congresses and the PFP only one, then the NP will obviously be in the news more than the PFP, with the one congress they held. Why does the PFP not hold more congresses? [Interjections.] Surely the NP is far more newsworthy than the PFP.

We can discuss Zimbabwe as well as South West Africa with authority. As far as public reaction is concerned, the NP always has people who are able to speak with authority. The SABC causes the emphasis to fall on political reports if they affect the affairs of recognized political parties and concern the public interest. The PFP must make a statement which is of public interest for a change, and not make blatantly political statements or negative or derogatory attacks on people or bodies, because the SABC does not have time for that.

Eventually the SABC will demonstrate to hon. members what they are doing. Today I want to pay tribute to Mr. Swanepoel, Director-General, Dr. Schutte, Director-General, Mr. Yssel, Deputy Director and Mr. Van Zyl, Director of News Services. They are performing a task, very important together with the people in the Post Office.

Eventually we are going to have an interesting situation here. I know that attacks are constantly being made. I know that our people do not know what is going to happen to TV 2, but hon. members should bear in mind that that viewing public will total approximately 1 033 000 by the end of 1981—those are Blacks that will watch television. Relations will then be improved on such a basis that hon. members will ultimately be surprised at the success television is going to achieve in this regard. By means of the panels of viewers that are going to be established television programmes will constantly be improved.

There are still a great many things I could say in this regard today. The hon. member for Sandton quoted from the Sunday Express, which is actually related to the Sunday Times, and I want to quote from the Sunday Times of 17 February—

This is a compliment about which we can be extremely proud.

I come back to the point that the first TV channel was introduced to meet the needs of the Whites, the Coloureds and the Asians, and that the second TV channel will meet the needs of the Black people. In this short period of time, tremendous progress has already been made and eventually, when the Black people have been trained, TV 2 will bloom like the flower on the hon. the Minister’s lapel.

In conclusion, I want to refer to the advertisements on the programmes of the SABC. The magazine is being criticized a great deal because it will supposedly cost people even more, but the percentage increase in the SABC’s revenue is very small. To those who are always supporting the English Press, I want to say that they should give those advertisements to the SABC so that the Afrikaans-speaking person can also get his share of the advertising revenue. What is the position at the moment? Out of every rand being spent on advertisements, 75c goes to English newspapers and only 25c to Afrikaans newspapers. This is the position as regards the allocation of advertisements. This is the type of discrimination against the Afrikaner that one finds all the time. Give those advertisements to the SABC so that the service can be extended to both language groups and so that a proper service can be provided. The late night service tariff, i.e. between 11 o’clock and 12 o’clock, will cost only R768 per half-second. In that way the SABC will receive only R1,5 million per annum more to be able to provide a better service.

I have many more notes in front of me here and there are many matters to which I want to refer in the limited time at my disposal. I want to say that we cannot but praise the Government. In terms of the Act, the Corporation comes to Parliament to report here. They are not a secret organization. I say the Government must be praised for the establishment of an independent—I emphasize “independent”—radio and television service by means of which our national and international relations are being promoted in a positive way. This is true and hon. members cannot get away from that. In this way we convey our appreciation for the positive and comprehensive role of the SABC as the national broadcaster in the exceptionally complex ethnic structure in South Africa.

With the thorough training being given to by technicians, we shall eventually be able to show films at the film festivals in Cannes in France too, as well as in other countries. This has become a means of communication and is not being done for profit. Here we do not have unscrupulous profiteering as is the case with radio and television stations elsewhere in the world. To these people, the desire to serve is the primary issue. That is why this gives a special character to the Republic and our people. That is why it gives rise to development in our literature.

Just look at the way Bantu literature has flourished since they too were eventually given an opportunity on Radio Bantu. Do hon. members realize how those radio plays and the singing have furthered relations? That is why I say that television has become a powerful medium of education and has given a new colour to our country and its people.

That is why the year 1975, when Dr. Piet Meyer, the man who is being criticized so today, made a start with this, will be known as the golden viewing year of the Republic of South Africa. It is those matters which will eventually become of very great importance to us.

For example, the question was asked here why the sound-track of television programmes could not be broadcast in two languages simultaneously, one language together with the television picture and the second language on an FM channel to enable a viewer to enjoy a television programme in his own language. Such a system is not technically quite impossible, although it would be very intricate and consequently extremely expensive as well. However, at present this is impossible because the necessary FM frequencies are simply not available. A system of this nature would also have to be extended to TV 2 on which five languages are used. This will make things even more difficult. Hon. members opposite should see all these matters entirely in perspective and then they will eventually see what is impossible. They do not have all the scientific knowledge one should have before one is eventually able to discuss all those things.

I just want to say that at the moment a total of 3 030 Whites and 857 non-Whites are employed by the SABC. This figure already represents a decrease of 213 as against the figure for the corresponding period last year. However, we must take off our hats to those people who are being trained by the SABC. Ultimately they are bought by other firms after having undergone all that training.

It is very clear that a new pinnacle has been achieved with the establishment of the South West African Broadcasting Corporation. In 1979, 12 new television transmitters were commissioned at various places. A very important development we are going to see one of these days is the introduction of small electronic units to be staffed by two or three people who will do direct video recording. Consequently it will no longer be essential to use large panel vans staffed by 30 people. These video recordings will be capable of being to be sent quickly, and consequently people will be able to see fresh news quickly. The transportation of film recordings on aircraft will, to a large extent, become a thing of the past. Tremendous development is taking place at the moment.

The overall financial position of the Corporation is very sound. The Corporation’s total revenue rose by 13,9% last year to R152 million. The revenue from advertisements rose by R15 million to R76,7 million. All of these things, together with the revenue from television licences amounting to R14,9 million, and an additional amount of R14,3 million, will bring about further development.

For all these reasons I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications on the introduction of this budget. We want to thank him for a fine budget. I also want to pay very great tribute to Mr. Louis Rive, Dr. Boyce and all the other people who assisted in the smooth running of these services. By means of satellite stations they were able to give a direct transmission of the visit to us by people of Taiwan. We want to convey our sincere thanks to them for this service they are rendering not only South Africa, but also the whole world, a service South Africa can show off with just as I am showing off this flower in my lapel.

Mr. Speaker, I have only six minutes at my disposal, but I do want to avail myself of this opportunity of expressing my deep disappointment and shock at the behaviour of certain hon. members in this House. There are hon. members in this House who served with me in the youth organization of the United Party many years ago. Our main objective was to bring about co-operation between English-and Afrikaans-speaking people and consequently to achieve national unity. Today we have seen how attempts have been made to drive a wedge of hatred between English-and Afrikaans-speaking people.

[Inaudible.]

I do not want to join your party.

Thank goodness.

At all times we tried to bring about national unity between Afrikaans-and English-speaking people. Today an attempt has again been made to stir up the old hatred. No less a person than my old friend, the hon. member for Durban Central, objected here to the fact that certain people had pronounced certain names incorrectly.

Deliberately. [Interjections.]

As an Afrikaans-speaking person I hate it when anyone laughs at an Afrikaans-speaking person making an effort to speak English and perhaps pronouncing his words incorrectly. In the same way I hate it when someone laughs at an English-speaking person trying to speak Afrikaans. Consequently I really cannot see why we should try to score political points off one another concerning a person in the service of the SABC who pronounced the name of a bishop incorrectly. I think the time has arrived for us to rise above the kind of pettiness we have seen here today. [Interjections.] I do not agree with everything I hear and see on the SABC, but I do want to tell hon. members that I am grateful for the part the SABC plays in bringing about unity between English-and Afrikaans-speaking people and establishing better relations between White and Black in South Africa. [Interjections.] I trust that within a very short space of time the day will come when we shall rise above such political pettiness as that we have had to hear today.

Can’t we just get a better SABC?

I want to deal with the SABC, too.

Give him a blue card.

I want to tell the hon. member that I shall get a blue card long before the hon. member for Umhlanga. [Interjections.] I rue the day when that hon. member and I were in the same party.

There is no place for jingoes in the NP. [Interjections.]

How did you get in?

This is the type of attitude we find in South Africa. While efforts are being made to obtain co-operation, we find this type of destructive attitude and destructive conduct on the part of certain people.

If time permits, I shall confine myself to what I really want to discuss. The SABC plays an important part in the life of our elderly people. There are old people who are never able to attend a concert, a church service or a musical performance. The SABC is really their only link with the outside world.

Last year I raised a certain matter. The former hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications intimated that he thought my request was worthy of consideration and that the matter would be gone into. So far I have not heard whether anything has been done about it and consequently I want to repeat it. We are grateful that old-age pensioners can obtain radio licences at the minimal amount of R1, but there are civil pensioners who are in the same income group as old-age pensioners. Representations have been made to me by elderly people in my constituency who asked whether it would not be possible to find a method which would enable them, too, to obtain licences at this minimal amount. I believe this is worthy of consideration, and I again want to ask the hon. the Minister—and I know he is sympathetic—whether he would not go into this matter to see whether we cannot also accommodate the elderly people who receive civil pensions whose income is the same as that of an old-age pensioner.

I should also like to associate myself briefly with what was said by the hon. member for Walmer. He appealed to the hon. the Minister to visit Port Elizabeth with a view to a new post office. I want to tell the hon. members that the post office in Port Elizabeth is in my constituency and the area in which the new post office is eventually to be built, is also in my constituency. Consequently I whole-heartedly support the appeal made by the hon. member for Walmer. We have done so in the past, and we have been told, as we were last year, that the post office in Port Elizabeth is still quite functional and still answers to its purpose. This is true, but unfortunately it is inconvenient from the point of view of the user of this post office. I just want to reiterate that the post office in Port Elizabeth has five entrances facing onto three streets. If one wants to buy stamps or postal orders, draw an old-age pension, etc., one enters through one entrance. If one wants to apply for a telephone or has telephone account inquiries, one must enter through another entrance. If one wants to fetch one’s post or registered articles, one must enter through another entrance. If one has to be in the administrative section one has to enter through another entrance, and if one wants to fetch parcels, one must enter through yet another entrance.

Does this post office have walls? It seems to me as if it has only entrances!

It is virtually all entrances. This is the problem we have. The problem, however, is that there are walls inside the building preventing one from walking from one entrance to another. [Interjections.] Consequently I reiterate that the post office of Port Elizabeth, although it may be functional, is extremely inconvenient to the post office user. However, I shall discuss this in more detail when we reach the Committee Stage. Unfortunately my time has now expired.

Mr. Speaker, it was my intention, at this stage of the debate, to deal at some length with the question of the technical development of the Post Office. The debate has, however, taken the course it has now taken, and I think I must also get on to the SABC. Before doing so, however—and I hope to be returning to this point again during the Committee Stage—I should like to make quite sure though that I do make it while the going is good. That is namely that the Post Office deserves every congratulation, in particular for the imagination it has shown and for the skill it has applied to the development of its telecommunications system. I believe that in this field, from the humble telephone through to the more complex systems, great imagination has been shown, not only in the quantity of the apparatus applied to meet shortages, but also in the quality of apparatus intended for the future. The programme of the Post Office has been a modern one and deserves the highest praise.

I turn now to the SABC, and one could only begin by saying—as must be said—that there is of course widespread dissatisfaction and widespread concern about the quality and the nature of the services provided by the SABC.

Can you provide evidence to bear that out?

I shall have quite a lot to say to that effect.

The hon. member for Von Brandis will not understand it, of course.

With the possible exception also of the hon. member for Bloemfontein North, I believe this is a very generally held opinion in South Africa. The hon. member for Bloemfontein North speaks of the SABC as though it were a kind of ideological church with a message to carry, a duty to fulfil, a conveyer of a doctrine, with a fanaticism built into the system, the brain-washer of the population. Or, of course, in the words of Karl Marx, of whom, in his enthusiasm, the hon. member for Bloemfontein North sometimes reminds me, it is to serve as the opium of the people. Broadcasting is indeed a powerful factor in the life of a modern State. It has political, economic and social complications and implications, which impinge very heavily on the life of the country. It is there to serve the people in a very special sense, but certainly not in the sense in which, for example, it reacted to the report of the Cillié Commission. This matter has already been dealt with by the hon. member for Sandton.

It is patently ridiculous, however, that an organ of information, with the duties indicated by the hon. member for Bloemfontein North, should in fact relate the findings of the Cillié Commission in the manner in which the SABC did, in a manner which one could only describe as a deliberate mistranslation of the intent of the commissioner himself. If we want to see the importance of broadcasting—both of radio and television—in the life of a modern community, I think it is necessary for perspective to look not only at South Africa but also at some other countries which have been taking an in-depth look at the same problems. I have recently—during the last day or so—been looking at the system employed in France, Germany, Britain and Canada, where one finds with a shock of recognition that many of the problems which concern us in this country also in some measure or another, in a greater or lesser degree, affect those other countries. They also have these problems to look at. I think that we can also, with some benefit, read how they have approached these problems. One particular commission of inquiry, which I recommend most strongly to the hon. the Minister, is the commission headed by Lord Annan, a commission which was convened in 1974. It conducted extensive inquiries, not only in Britain but also in other countries and reached its conclusions in 1977. So here we have a body of expert opinion which has done work in a field which is of direct interest, because broadcasting is international and not only national. The commission reached conclusions which I think commend themselves in many ways, or will commend themselves, to the hon. the Minister himself. I want to draw attention to a few of these, if only to whet the appetite of some other hon. members who seem so confident that there is nothing that needs to be done to improve the quality of the service of the SABC. Let me ask a first question. What are the duties of a Government in relation to the very powerful weapon of broadcasting which lies close to its hand and which it may be tempted to use? I should like to refer to one or two remarks made on the subject by this commission, and I quote—

This sounds like a carte blanche offer because Ministers may go to the broadcasting corporation and give the corporation statements to broadcast. In practice, however, the making of announcements is very limited. I quote—

I quote further—

That is the Minister of the Interior—

Now what powers has the Minister to veto the broadcasting of any matter? In other words, what powers of control does he have? I quote—

It is worth paying attention to the five manners in which this power has been exercised. I quote further—

I repeat: “not to broadcast its own opinion on current affairs or on matters of public policy”. That was the way the Government exercised its veto over the Corporation. I highly recommend a similar veto in the hands of this Government. I quote further—

There are then other prescriptions which were applied and eventually withdrawn. I quote—

This was done because people insisted that these matters were indeed of public interest and worth discussing. There were also other prohibitions of a similar kind, e.g.—

Greater liberty was granted to the broadcasting authorities to discuss these matters as well before the debate took place. I quote further—

Greater liberty was then allowed in the broadcasting of controversial political opinions. I quote further—

The position is, briefly, that the broadcasting authorities were prevented by the Government from broadcasting matters which were harmful, unfair, unjust or biased. That was all. Apart from that they were encouraged to do what they wished to do in the interests of the public in general.

When one examines the nature of these broadcasting systems one finds that the real crux of the matter lies not in the directives given by the Government nor in the restraints exercised by the Government but in the manner in which the broadcasting authority itself is organized. Here one finds a very interesting thing, viz. that the quality of the art, the skill and style of the broadcasting authority, depend almost entirely on the artists themselves—in other words, on the producers. Just as it is the painter who paints a picture who is the artist, the producer of quality, and not the man who makes the frame; and just as it is the writer who produces literature and not the man who prints it, so in broadcasting it is the producer who produces the quality that is admired and not the bureaucrats, the people who have authority over the producers. If that lesson is remembered, we will discover a great weakness in our own broadcasting system where producers almost go in fear of their artistic lives because of the constant supervision, the constant threat, if you like, to their occupations exercised by certain of the authorities who are imposed over them.

If one looks at the systems in various countries, one will find that in the case of France there is a special class of persons who in fact make the major contribution to broadcasting, to the quality of television and radio in that country. Such a person is called the réalisateur, which is a French word which simply means a producer in a special sense. The réalisateur is a man who, on the whole, is an independent person. He is an artist, he produces work, he writes work, he has work photographed and he sells his work to the television authorities. They buy work from him because he is an expert. He is like an artist who labours in a studio. It is this that contributes to the richness and quality of the films we enjoy on SABC-TV from the French studios. It is not produced by a bunch of bureaucrats in a special State studio. The State studio is there to encourage the work, to fertilize, if you like, the efforts of the artists in broadcasting in France and to encourage the thousand or more réalisateurs who are licensed, approved, by the French broadcasting authorities to produce, invent and deliver work for the delight of the public in France.

In the case of Canada the situation is slightly different. The producer there has his status and his function very carefully defined by law. He is a State official, unlike the French réalisateur, and he enjoys a guaranteed status, a guaranteed protection, and he works within the authority and is protected by the State in the limited exercise of his skills. In Germany they have a double system in that there is a federal arrangement whereby each of the Länder has its own broadcasting authority while there is a federal one as well. Within the system one therefore gets a very wide range of contributions, but all of them very conscious of the need in a State like Germany to maintain the highest standards of freedom of thought, freedom of speech and freedom of thinking and writing. Again one has a system whereby the separate studios, private enterprise, create their own films. There are literally thousands of them creating films, creating stories, creating TV presentations dealing with the news, dealing with explanations of the news, and then trying to sell them to the broadcasting authority. The broadcasting authority is in a very strong position because it is able to select from a wide variety of offerings the productions of the highest quality of these people who have created this new industry in Germany.

Sir, my time is running out. I should like to say more about the subject, but unfortunately there is not very much time. I should like to conclude by just reading the fundamental conclusions of one of these committees of inquiry—

This relates to broadcasting in general—

Not a chance.

What a sad day, Mr. Speaker! We are dealing here with a budget which is one of the finest in the history of the Post Office, and what do we get, with the exception of the hon. member for Hillbrow who made an analysis of the budget? What we have had from all the hon. members opposite, without exception, are petty attacks on people who are unable to defend themselves in this House. The hon. member for Sandton used the example—he linked a whole story to it—of the editor of some newspaper in Johannesburg who had been attacked by the SABC on TV and he deplores the fact that that man supposedly did not have the opportunity to defend himself. However, the hon. member for Sandton and other hon. members make attacks on Prof. Mouton and Dr. Piet Meyer. Those people cannot defend themselves against the attacks of the hon. members either. What would the reaction be on the other side of the House if those gentlemen were to appear on television to refute the statements made by the hon. member?

In the course of his speech the hon. member for Sandton referred, among other things, to the frustration which is supposedly felt amongst certain officials of the SABC television service. He said that frustration was rife due to a “lack of a job satisfaction” and due to “political frustration”. Today we have seen typical examples of “lack of job satisfaction” and “political frustration” on the other side of the House. The hon. member for Durban Central made a petty attack on SABC commentators on the basis that they mispronounce certain words.

They do it deliberately.

The hon. member states repeatedly by way of interjection that they do so deliberately.

It is true.

I would ask the hon. member how the name of Qwaqwa’s capital city is pronounced.

I do not even know what the name means.

Commentators have to contend with names that lend themselves to varying pronunciations. Let me take as an example the name Avril Malan, a man who shone on the sportsfield. If different commentators pronounce the name “Avril” in different ways, does it really matter? The hon. member made a fuss about the name of a swimmer which had been incorrectly pronounced. However, it was a name spelt in such a way that it lent itself to varying interpretations. This is really a sad day. The hon. member for Constantia made a study of the broadcasting systems in various parts of the world. However, we must bear in mind—and hon. members on the other side of the House seem to forget this—that we are not trying to maintain that the SABC or its television service is perfect, because it is operated by people. However, we must also bear in mind that the programmes are being presented for people and not for robots. I want to give hon. members the assurance that, as an official of the television service said to me recently, the element in their work that causes the greatest tension is this very fear that in their interpretation of news events, they may create the impression that they are giving one group preferential treatment in comparison with another. This tension is caused because they are honest in their efforts to convey a realistic image to the viewer and the listener in South Africa.

I think that the budget and the two annual reports we have received deserve appreciation on both sides of the House and that the work of the two Departments justifies an objective discussion. Yesterday, when the hon. the Minister made his budget speech, the television transmitter at Bethlehem was switched on. I want to express my appreciation for that because I know that the hon. the Minister himself took the trouble, in spite of the fact that the department is experiencing a manpower shortage due to technicians who have resigned from the service, to have this transmitter in operation as soon as possible. The hon. the Minister has had to contend with problems with technicians in his department. Unfortunately this is one of the fields in which the department is vulnerable because the training of technicians within the department, in these times that are marked by an upswing in the field of electronics in South Africa, is of such a nature that these people are a target for the private sector because they are well-trained. We appreciate the fact that the department, the hon. the Minister with his officials, have deemed it wise to take steps to restrict this erosion of technicians and officials of the Post Office. We are also most appreciative of the fact that in his budget the hon. the Minister earmarked an amount of R100 000 for training, research and co-operation with various universities in South Africa. One trusts that this measure, in conjunction with the measures adopted to improve the circumstances with regard to recreation for the workers, will have the desired effect.

Unfortunately it is a fact that training is a continuous task. Due to the present rapid technological development there is a constant need for a continuing process of training and re-training of virtually all employees of any organization. It is wrong to assume that a trained worker remains trained, because due to modern business principles and the free market system, training and re-training of the management corps and entrepreneurs, too, is essential with a view to constant renewal. It would be fatal to train workers only, when the economy is short of entrepreneurs and managers with initiative. According to the annual report I see that in the past financial year the Post Office again sent 27 senior officials, among others, to attend high level management training courses. It has become necessary to monitor the demand and supply situation in the market constantly, and accordingly we appreciate the announcement in this regard in the hon. the Minister’s budget speech that the Post Office will in future be more geared to the demand and supply situation in regard to available manpower in various spheres in the republic.

The new technology requires four types of employee to perform the work, work which, even until recent times, could still be performed by skilled artisans: Technologists with the necessary technical skills to determine what must be done, recognized artisans in a limited number of posts, part replacers acting on instructions from the technologists and then, too, the semi-skilled labourers. As regards the Post Office’s programme of training there is appreciation for the fact that the Post Office takes note of and sums up the situation and does in fact implement it in its training programme.

Then, too, there is appreciation for a warning issued by the hon. the Minister. It relates to the standpoint of the department concerning citizen band radio. In my opinion this was a timely warning. One has appreciation for those who make effective use of the citizen band radio, particularly with a view to conservation of energy in a time of expensive fuel. One is also grateful to those people who use it in aid and emergency services. However, it is true, unfortunately, that negative factors have also come into the picture, factors such as a “slang” language that is developing, improper conversations and language which would probably be ruled out of order in this House. It is therefore to be appreciated that the hon. the Minister has decided to issue a timely warning before it may become necessary to adopt stricter measures.

It is not only in the field of everyday communication that one encounters problems in this regard. One even encounters problems in areas such as the Kruger National Park, where people abuse the citizen band radio to such an extent that we have hundreds of complaints in this regard in the Kruger National Park. When people are quietly observing nature and animals in peaceful surroundings, one finds that some of these people—not all of them—switch on their citizen band radio to try to tell the rest of the Kruger Park where there are lions, elephants or rhinoceroses, and the resultant questions are received loud and clear, frightening away the animals in question. Accordingly we have decided to issue a timely warning that these citizen band radios will no longer be permitted in the Kruger National Park in the future.

But, Sir, in our negotiations with the Post Office there was an interesting occurrence. While we were negotiating with the official to whom citizen band radios have been entrusted, he told us that he received dozens of complaints daily about this very issue, viz. people misusing citizen band radios. In lighter vein he told us that he had had one exception to the rule. A certain person contacted him and told him that he had purchased a citizen band radio for approximately R280 and had had it installed in his motor-car. Subsequently that citizen band radio was stolen. As a result of the theft, the car was damaged. When the owner of the radio saw what had happened, he said that he was so pleased that they had stolen the thing that he had not even mentioned the matter to the police or notified his insurance broker that it had been stolen. So, we hope that there will be responsible action in this regard too, so that it will not be necessary for strict measures to be adopted. However, we want to tell the minister that if it is necessary, and if co-operation is not forthcoming, he will have to adopt such measures.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I should like to discuss a section which, according to the Minister’s budget speech, gives pleasure and enjoyment to approximately 25 000 deposit account holders, namely the philatelic service of the Post Office. The philatelist in South Africa enjoys the privilege of being able, as a collector, to practise a hobby of appreciating value at a purchase price which is probably cheaper than any other hobby. It is therefore a pity that objections are sometimes raised by people who criticize the philatelic division of the Post Office due to action which is not to the taste of all collectors. I believe that this is undeserved criticism which in many cases is ill-considered. It is true that the Post Office adopt a relatively conservative policy as far as its philatelic division is concerned, but it is a well-considered and scientifically based conservative policy. In the second place there are people who say that it is this very policy that is being followed which has caused this to become an expensive hobby, and which has caused it to be difficult for beginners to take up this hobby. However, it is to be appreciated that at the latest congress of the Philatelic Federation which, incidentally, was held here in Cape Town last year, a resolution was moved by one of the members in which he specifically thanked the Post Office for the conservative policy adopted with regard to stamp issues and in which he also congratulated the Post Office on the standard maintained, which was of such a nature that South Africa can compete successfully in the international sphere. This motion was passed at that federation congress by a majority of 43 votes to 30. People who criticized the Post Office at that congress due to its actions and its policy made, inter alia, the following statements—

With reference to this criticism Mr. Herman Steyn, the chief of the philatelic division of the Post Office, summarized the stamp issues by the most important philatelic countries in the world, and compared the situation in South Africa with that in these countries. As far as South Africa is concerned, he took the year 1977. That was the year when the stamp issues had the highest face value, namely R5,86. Sir, I think it would be as well if we were to indicate in this House how cheap the Post Office really is as far as its stamp issues are concerned. Mr. Steyn gave a summary of the 30 most important philatelic countries in the world. In the case of these 30 countries, the average cost in regard to annual issues was R7,73. The highest in the history of the Post Office of South Africa was R5,86. This compares very well with Belgium, where the cost was R34,19, and compares even better with the position in the Comoro Islands, where the cost was R94,26. He went on to analyse the cost for a person who had been collecting stamps since 1961. He determined the cost on the basis of the face value of the issues. Fixed series were also included. Since 1961 a beginner or a collector could have built up a full series of stamp issues for an amount of R26-R62,5, an average amount of R1,40 per annum. I want to thank the Post Office for the fact that they have made it possible to put this hobby, the value of which appreciates, within the reach of everyone in South Africa, but particularly within the reach of the child, for whom it has not only a growing utilitarian value but also an educational value over a wide field. For that reason I want to ask that this exceptional work be proceeded with, because this is a very valuable medium of education and leisure time expenditure. It is as well that note be taken of the three criteria used by the Post Office when deciding on stamp issues. The three criteria relate to the commemoration of exceptional events in units of 25 years, objects of national and international importance, and the depiction of the image of South Africa. I thank this fine department, which brings the history within the reach of the collector not only with consummate artistry, but also with the help of intensive research. It offers the people and the children of South Africa a hobby which can only increase in value. Such a standard is maintained that we can harvest gold medals at international conferences with dignity.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Bethlehem has spoken at some length on the philatelic facilities available to collectors in South Africa. I want to say to him that we on this side of the House agree that a very valuable service is being rendered. I also want to say to him that the conservative policy which has been adopted in respect of the issue of special stamps and the usual definitive stamps in South Africa over the years, has in fact made South Africa a highly sought after country amongst collectors of stamps world-wide. With him I believe that this conservative policy should be continued in future and that this is a hobby that can be well encouraged amongst the young people of this country.

Despite the flowers being worn by hon. members today, there have been a minimum of bouquets for the hon. the Minister although he thought that he had a “blooming” good budget. Possibly people will ask tomorrow: “Where have all the flowers gone?”

I believe that the new hon. Minister, together with the new Board of the SABC—this afternoon there has been a great deal of controversy about the membership of secret organizations and the Broederbond, which raised a certain storm in the debate earlier on—and a new chairman of that board, can do something really positive. He has an excellent opportunity of seeing to it that the chairman and the new board resign from any and all secret or restricted societies to which they may belong … [Interjections.] … as a sign of good faith that they are putting the SABC and South Africa first, and sectional interests second. That is all I want to say in this regard. I am not going to carry that argument any further. I think the hon. the Minister has an excellent opportunity of showing good faith and of demonstrating to us some of the “nuwe bedeling” we are hearing so much about but seeing so little of in South African politics.

We have indicated that we shall give good marks for the increased supply of telephones in Black areas. I believe this is something—and I can speak with a certain degree of knowledge—the former member of Berea high-lighted over many years in this House. I know how pleased he will be about the fact that after years of pleading, asking for figures and prodding in the right direction, the Government has finally come round to seeing that there is a real need for increased and improved telephone services in our Black areas. I want to express my very sincere thanks for the fact that this is being accorded a priority. It is interesting to see that one out of six of the backlog in applications for telephones is in respect of Soweto.

I have already indicated that we will give positive marks also for the philatelic services. I think we must also give positive marks for the decision to go ahead with the allocation of CB licences and for allowing them to become the band of CB-ers that we have in South Africa. While I say that, I would like to put it to the hon. the Minister that I feel perhaps at this early stage after the introduction of facilities for CB licences and for the facilities generally available to people who wish to use Citizen Band, it was perhaps a little early for the hon. the Minister to come to the House and threaten them with the withdrawal of that concession if they did not run their matters better. Hon. members know that we have a capital investment in sets of R5 million or more. It is a toy to a lot of people, but there are a lot of people who do not use it as a toy. They use it because they cannot get telephones. I hope that is not the context in which the hon. the Minister speaks of “abuse”, because when one cannot get a telephone, one might well have to resort to the use of one’s CB for purposes that are not strictly “kosher”. I want to ask the hon. the Minister not to be hasty in any decision he may take in this regard. Give the system a chance to settle down. Let the voluntary organizations like React and Monitor Services sort things out. I know people who do good word listening in on these monitoring services. Give the people a chance to sort it out themselves. Do not threaten to take away their concessions because there are a few black sheep who abuse it. I really want to ask the hon. the Minister to consider that and to give the system a couple of years to settle down, because tremendous good can come from the CB system in times of national and local emergency. The hon. the Minister referred to how these people could work hand in hand with emergency services. I would plead that because of those circumstances the hon. the Minister should not come with threats to do away with the concession.

It was no threat. It was a warning.

I am very glad to hear that, but that warning was a little stem. Let me put it that way. Yet I am glad to hear it was not a threat. I take the hon. the Minister’s point.

I think a lot has been said this afternoon about bias of the SABC. Here again, instead of coming just with wild accusations of bias, I should like the hon. the Minister to consider three aspects. If the hon. the Minister wishes to see to it that such accusations are not levelled in further debates, he should give consideration to these aspects in the interests of a truly fair reporting system. In the first place, when major announcements are made by Government spokesmen—it is usually a Cabinet Minister—he has the opportunity to make an announcement in the House here and very often he has the chance to be “live” on TV.

What do you mean by “very often”? It is every time.

All right, every time, if you like. In any event, too often. The point I want to make is that however often it is, what happens is that one finds that the TV cameras go out into industry and commerce and people are interviewed who make comments that are positive reaction to the statements that have been made, but very seldom are spokesmen who deal with the particular portfolio from the Opposition parties given an opportunity to put their point of view. If the hon. the Minister is genuine, I want to say to him that he could issue an instruction to the effect that wherever possible the spokesmen dealing with that particular portfolio in the Opposition parties be given however limited an opportunity to put the case of their party. That is what democracy is all about. [Interjections.] It is not good just having announcements from the Government if spokesmen from the parties in these benches are not afforded a few seconds to put the important points of their party’s approach to the Government’s statement. I leave it at that. In the second place I want to refer to interviews. One sees so many interviews with people who support the Government’s point of view, but very seldom an interview with people who promote an Opposition point of view, in any capacity whatsoever. [Interjections.] I believe if one wants a fair system, one should give equal opportunities also to people who promote the Opposition’s point of view.

On a pro rata basis.

The thing that really saddens me in the House is that after 32 years in power, the hon. members opposite have become so anaesthetized to what is really fair that none of them stand up in the House and agree with us that there could be an improvement. That is what saddens me. I have yet to hear in this debate one hon. member opposite get up and say we are right, there is room for improvement and that they are trying to improve the situation. Just that admission would make me feel that they are looking at it and that there is an attempt to be fair. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Rosettenville presented us with figures which did not include references to Cabinet Ministers. The time of Cabinet Ministers was excluded from his survey. [Interjections.] I want to put it to the hon. member for Rosettenville that there is no such thing as bad, worse, worst. It is no good saying that TV is better than the Press. If the media are all bad in terms of objective reporting it is no good saying that TV is a little bit better than the Press, which is also bad. They are all bad. They could all improve. [Interjections.] This is really the point I wanted to make.

What I should like to see is a system such as that which applies in the United Kingdom, a system in terms of which all parties get equal time for their political broadcasts. [Interjections.]

I should like to end my speech with two suggestions I want to put briefly to the hon. the Minister. The one is in connection with television licences. I feel it would be a very worthwhile gesture if pensioners could obtain television licences at approximately R5 or R6 each. I think that in the twilight of their lives these people have very little entertainment. I believe it is something which should be considered very seriously by the hon. the Minister. He should consider giving pensioners cheaper licences. They could even group together and buy a portable television set, which would enable them to enjoy many hours of entertainment. At R36 a year for a licence however, they just cannot afford it.

Finally, I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister the following. The sales of Christmas cards for charity are dropping very drastically. I have figures which indicate that the sales of one particular charity has dropped by nearly 50% over four years. I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he give a Christmas bonus to all people who send out Christmas cards and that, for an experimental period this coming Christmas—probably for the whole month of December—Christmas cards should be allowed to be posted at the old rate of 3c, regardless of whether they are sealed or not. If five million Christmas cards are sent the cost to the Post Office will be only R100 000. I believe this will be a seasonal gesture that could contribute a great deal to the coffers of the charity organizations that sell Christmas cards.

Mr. Speaker, as the last member of the fragrant team which is batting here this afternoon, I want to allege from the back-benches that this has been an evil day. It is a pity that we have had to experience a day such as this one. For a long time we have had to listen in this House to stereotyped arguments being advanced in a stereotyped way by the hon. members of the Opposition, day after day and debate after debate. Time and again we hear an hon. member on the other side either referring to an isolated railway station in South Africa where there is allegedly not enough shelter for Black people, or to a subway—at Umhlanga, for example—where problems exist which he has complained about in the past. Formerly, perhaps, he complained that the subway should be opened to all. Now he wants extra police to be on duty there. Time and again we have this sort of debate. What did we have to listen to from the hon. member for Durban Central this afternoon, for example? He again outlined a similar situation. He complained that the express delivery service from Durban to Kuruman was causing problems, that mail was not being delivered as expeditiously as he wanted it to be.

I am not a person who has ever been closely involved in postal affairs. However, when I consider the situation outlined by the hon. member for Durban Central, I have to ask what express delivery is and how it is handled. Surely it is not possible to make an aircraft fly faster or to make a train go faster. Therefore the time factor is something which no one can change. I believe that in a situation such as this one, surely only a small amount of mail—between Durban and Kuruman, in any event—is despatched. Using the express delivery service is almost pointless, therefore. Express mail is only handled in large centres, and then, when one wants mail to be sent rapidly from one point to another, one labels it “express mail”. Then the article concerned is immediately set aside and placed in the right container. This means that the postal item is sent a little more quickly from point A to point B. However, the Opposition conducts the kind of debate with us that they have conducted this afternoon. As a backbencher, I was shocked this afternoon at the behaviour of the NRP in this House. Once again they attacked my people. The hon. member for Durban Central should take congnizance of what I am saying. He rang the death-knell for that shrinking NRP this afternoon. After this afternoon, the people will deal with him, because it has taken us a long time to get to this point where Afrikaans-speaking and English-speaking people are working together. [Interjections.] However, he disparaged it this afternoon. I should like to ask him a question. How is the SABC to report his speech this afternoon in its programme tomorrow morning? Are they to refer to him as Mr. Andrew “Piper”, the member for Durban Central, or should they refer to him as Mr. Andrew “Pyper”? [Interjections.] It is a problem. He should not introduce that kind of sentiment into this House. He should not try to sow dissension in this Chamber once again. [Interjections.]

They are doing it deliberately.

Can you prove it?

Order!

There is another case I have to comment on. The hon. member for Sandton came along for the umpteenth time with his cover-up stories. However, has that hon. member ever been able to explain to us why he wrote a story in Punch magazine, which is distributed 6 000 miles from this Afrikaner nation? Why does he accuse us of all kinds of things in that magazine?

He is Punch drunk.

Is that not a cover-up? If it had not been for the hon. member for Von Brandis, who exposed him here, the Afrikaner nation would never have known about it. This is a cover-up of the grossest kind we have ever had in South Africa. However, I think I have devoted enough time to the hon. Opposition. I now want to come to the real subject of my speech.

The hon. the Minister is not in the House at the moment, but I nevertheless want to say that it is a pleasure to be able to congratulate him and his team on the Post Office budget which is before us. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister, reading the Postmaster-General’s annual report, felt, as I did, that he wanted to call in those 73 000 officials and say to everyone, “Well done, good and faithful official; we gave you little when we appointed you, and just see what you have done with all your talents; just see how you have increased them”? One can understand why the Postmaster-General wrote so proudly about his department’s achievements in his preface to the annual report, because one page after another testifies to dedication and loyalty, not only to their employer, but to South Africa as well. When one compares this annual report with those of some years ago, one has to agree with the Postmaster-General that the officials have not only regained the pride they had lost, but that they are determined to ensure in an unobtrusive way, by means of the communications system in South Africa, that this country retains the leadership of Africa and that further progress is made in this field. When one has finished reading this report, there is no doubt in one’s mind that the eyes of our officials, like the telescope at the Hartebeesthoek space station, are constantly turned to the stars.

In the short time I have been here, I have developed an enormous respect for the efficient service rendered by these officials and this department. Hon. members will recall that last year, when I participated in a discussion of the Public Works Vote, I pleaded that all Government departments should give serious attention to their unused properties, which are found throughout South Africa in many towns and cities. Hon. members will recall that I mentioned the fact that there were approximately 270 unused Government and provincial plots that had been disfiguring the suburbs of Boksburg for 40 years. Even before I was able to hold a report-back meeting in my constituency last year after the end of the session, I received a letter from the hon. the Minister in which he informed me that 13 of the plots belonging to the Post Office were to be sold, and those plots were submitted to my city council last month. Through its prompt action in this connection, the Post Office has relieved the ratepayers of my town of an enormous burden. The fact that these plots can now be sold to the private sector may mean that approximately R3 700 in municipal rates may be collected every year from now on, and on top of that, the new owners will contribute to the capital redemption of the services that were unutilized for so many decades. So I am expressing my thanks, not only for the postal and telecommunication services provided in my district during the past year, but also for that burden which has been removed from the shoulders of the ratepayer. I also take it—and the hon. the Minister can say in his reply whether this is so or not—that it has now become the policy of his department to get rid of the properties which are not going to be developed in the near future. Co-operation between the Government departments and local authorities is urgently necessary in this connection, and I am proud of the example which the Post Office has set in Boksburg. I also take it that these steps were taken because of the fact that the Post Office is in full control of matters affecting its buildings. I want to agree that this was also a step in the right direction.

Mr. Speaker, I want to devote the rest of my speech to two points made by the Postmaster-General in his fine annual report. Because these are by-products of the Post Office’s activities, one does not find very much about them in the rest of the annual report. Nevertheless, they are of vital importance to South Africa, and therefore I want to pay tribute to the Postmaster-General and his staff for having included in their objectives the expansion of these functions over the following 15 to 20 years. The objectives are, in the first place, to continue their important initiating and supporting role in establishing and developing a self-sufficient industry for electronic equipment and components in South Africa; and, secondly, to play a leading role in the development of adequate and efficient communications to serve the constellation of States in Southern Africa in particular. With regard to the first objective, i.e. the expansion of the important role already played by the Post Office in the electronics industry, I want to emphasize the importance of this for South Africa by referring to an article which appeared in the SA. Digest of 9 March 1979 under the heading “South Africa’s Space Age Industry.” It says, inter alia—

Just as Iscor and Sasol are of strategic importance to South Africa, this industry is already an important component of South Africa’s ability to be self-supporting and strong. Without encouragement from the part of the Post Office, South Africa would certainly not have had this. This article in the SA. Digest goes on to refer to the specific achievements of a single company in my home town, a company which has grown in just a few years to a concern with a turnover of R88 million which provides employment for more than 2 000 people of all races in my town. SA. Digest goes on to say that the company expects to place 25% of its turnover on the export market over the next five years. Mention is made in this article of the role played by this South African company in the establishment of the SABC’s micro-wave television network. This, too, could almost be called a totally South African undertaking. Except for the parabolic scanners that were used, most of the components and towers were manufactured in South Africa. This magazine also refers proudly to the R3 million which this company has spent on research, which has enabled it to market several products which were the first of their kind in the world. The telephone installed on the hon. the Minister’s farm is one of those products. This telephone system, the SOR18, was designed especially for the Post Office and is the first and only one of its kind in the world. The SOR18 is going to bring about a revolution in South Africa. This telephone is going to change the programme “Nommer Asseblief” into a documentary, because the introduction of the SOR18 does away with the telephone exchange to which so many farm lines are connected. These exchanges are replaced by a telephone system which will enable the farmers to dial any number in the country directly. For the Post Office it has the advantage that 18 telephones can be connected to an existing farm line simultaneously. No longer will any farmer have to wait until another farmer has completed his call. The first consignment of these new systems was delivered on 1 March 1980 in the Cradock district. Another 5 000 have already been ordered and will be delivered next year.

I am sure hon. members of the Opposition will rejoice about these new telephones, because the telephone operator, as portrayed in the television series “Nommer Asseblief", will no longer be there to listen in on the conversations of everyone in the neighbourhood. Therefore the hon. member for Houghton will henceforth be able to phone her friends in the country without any anxiety, and the hon. member for Sea Point will be able to phone Mr. McHenry from his farm. I wonder whether the SOR was not designed by people who had the official Opposition in mind. The system is designed in such a way that the voices of 18 persons can be carried on one line at the same time. The hon. member for East London North, who has not been in this House for some time, should take cognizance of the possibility that a 19th line may be installed. That will enable 19 people to speak with 19 voices at the same time on one line.

In the article in SA. Digest, the chairman of the group that manufactures the telephones points out that the boycott movement against South Africa should not be regarded with pessimism, but that we should rather accept it as a challenge. His team of South African development engineers not only took up the challenge, but they have proved to the world that they are second to none. They are already working on the next world first. This group of South Africans on the East Rand is so inspired by their prestige industry that they have gone a step further by ensuring in recent weeks that the company was completely removed from the hands of overseas shareholders and is now 85% under the control of South African shareholders. I am sure hon. members will agree that this is worth just as much to South Africa as Sasol, Iscor and Armscor. All this is due to the encouragement they received from the Government, the Postmaster-General and the Post Office.

Because the company is in the hands of South Africans, they are not subject to the pressure of anti-apartheid shareholders who may demand that certain strategic components be withheld from the Post Office. Because it is in the hands of South Africans, they contribute generously to the training of South Africans, at our universities, and like several other suppliers in South Africa, they have already taken steps to establish a chair in electronic engineering at the University of Stellenbosch. I think the hon. the Minister has expressed his thanks for this.

Since this industry is in the hands of South Africans to such a large extent, they are already training Black engineers and technicians. Some are even being trained overseas. These are people who will be able in the future to fill responsible positions in the telecommunications systems of our neighbouring States. Because of their acquaintance with the South African electronic industry, they will use our equipment in their territories, and in this way, trade between us and our neighbouring States will be promoted.

The writer of the article in the S.A. Digest refers to the role played by this specific company in the development of a local electronics industry and the valuable contribution it has made to our economy through a saving of foreign exchange, investment in capital goods and the training of South Africans in this industry. This technology has reached such an advanced stage in South Africa that as far as quartz crystals are concerned, we shall become completely independent of the outside world this year. Quartz crystals are the tiny parts which form the heart of a radio. They form the heart of many of the watches owned by hon. members and they are also the heart of a radio transmitter. These quartz crystals will be produced on a production line in those factories in South Africa by the end of the year. This will make us completely independent of the outside world, from where we have hitherto had to import these materials. In its unprocessed form, a quartz crystal is only found as a crystal in rock formations, where it takes years to form in nature, but in those factories, it will be possible to cultivate it over a period of several weeks at a fairly high level of production.

The Post Office is also making a major contribution towards the training and housing of its staff, and therefore I want to allege that the suppliers of our equipment should take cognizance of the fact that they could also make a larger contribution in this connection.

I want to urge that it should be borne in mind that orders which are placed locally enable local manufacturers to increase their taxable benefits. This generates more employment for our people. More people will then pay tax, thereby contributing to the gross national product. This will ensure that more money will come into circulation. The tax collected in this way should help to defray the higher costs of local manufacture.

I want to conclude by asking the hon. the Minister whether the time has not come for us to see whether the receiver side of the telecommunications industry should be rationalized just as the manufacturers have been rationalized. Has the time not come for us to rationalize the users of telecommunications equipment, so that all users of telecommunications equipment may be put under one umbrella? Surely there are reasons why this has not yet been done, but I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible to provide that the telecommunications equipment used by the Railways, Escom, the S.A. Police, the Post Office and local authorities should all be purchased by one central body, so that we may rationalize that part of the industry as well.

I thank the Post Office and its officials, who have rendered such a great service to South Africa.

Mr. Speaker, I hope the hon. member for Boksburg will forgive me if I do not reply to his speech, the main reason being I could hardly hear one word he said. However, I do know that he dealt with some parochial matters and he was also busy having a private feud with the hon. member for Durban Central. I shall therefore leave him to it. I also have very limited time.

I want to deal with the fourth leg of the amendment which was moved by the hon. member for Hillbrow. But before doing so, I should like to say one or two kind things about the Post Office.

Really?

Yes, really. I want, for instance, to compliment the Post Office on the very much improved service to Soweto. I have over the years in this House complained bitterly that it was easier to get through to Timbuktu than it was to get through to Soweto, and since the introduction of a direct dialling service everything is much improved. I see in the budget that a considerable amount is being allocated in addition, to provide further telephone services to Soweto and the other Black townships, and I want to say at once that I believe this to be an important ingredient in the campaign to improve the quality of life in the Black townships. That is about the only nice thing I am going to say.

I now wish to deal with the fourth leg of the amendment which asks the hon. the Minister to give an assurance that the privacy of the individual in the use of Post Office facilities will be inviolate unless the security of the State is jeopardized and the due process of the law is followed. I want to deal with this in some detail.

During the no-confidence debate and also by way of a private member’s motion, which I moved on 15 February, I attempted to get to the bottom of the somewhat murky business whereby my own mail, and that of others, has been intercepted over a number of years. The Government funked appointing the Select Committee I asked for, and the debates, I might say, yielded absolutely nothing from the Government benches, except obvious evasions, nasty insinuations, false accusations and unsubstantiated charges. The only positive thing, indeed, to emerge from those debates, was the unequivocal assurance which we received from the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications and from the Postmaster-General, that they had received no requests for the interception of mail or for the tapping of telephones of any member of Parliament or of any political party, and that they had given no authority for such action to be taken. The previous Minister of Posts and Telecommunications gave an assurance that he had given no authority for telephone tapping. Well, having accepted those assurances, the fact still remained that quite indubitably my mail has been intercepted over a number of years, since copies of letters to me and copies of letters from me to other people, dated as far back as October 1976 and as recently as July 1979, obtained via Operation “Knoopsgat”, are lodged in a security file, No. W/V (“Witvrou”) 24596 of the Security Police. I have the proof here, in the form of photostat copies of the letters which are lodged in those files, and all the details as to where they have been sent flying around the country.

Now, Sir, how do copies of my letters get there if no permission was granted by the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications or the functionary, the Postmaster-General, to whom he told us he had delegated his authority in terms of section 118A of the Post Office Act, which is the only legal authority for the interception of mail or the tapping of telephones in South Africa? There are two possibilities. Either the security services asked for and received permission from some other person empowered in terms of section 118A of the Act, or they acted without authority, and therefore unlawfully. I have tried to find the answer to this riddle by putting a number of questions to the Minister of National Security and to the Prime Minister. In fact, they are one and the same man acting in two different capacities. I put these questions on 27 February. I have a copy here, but I shall not read the whole question out since it will take too much time. In effect, what I asked was whether anybody had been requested by the person appointed by the State Security Council in terms of the Post Office Act to have the telephones of any members of Parliament tapped or the mail of any members intercepted; if so, which members of Parliament, what the grounds were for asking for this—because section 118A lays down that grounds must be given and in writing, I might add—and over what period the tapping of telephones or the interception of mail was to be permitted. I asked further whether the person who was authorized to make the interception was an official of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. Sir, what was the extraordinary answer that I received? I was told that it was not in the public interest to reveal these things. In other words, the absurd answer was given to me that it is not in the public interest to know whether the Government has been acting lawfully or not. So we are stuck again at square one. We know only that my mail and that of others has been, and probably still is, for all I know, being intercepted. We do not know the actual procedures used, which people are using them or what the motivation is, and what is more, the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications does not know, nor does the Postmaster-General, although it is to them that one entrusts the safe delivery of one’s mail.

The Postmaster-General stated in an interview with the Press—it appeared in The Cape Times yesterday—that there could be unauthorized and illegal interception of mail. He told us how this could be done. Firstly, it could be done by collusion between the postman and a person before a letter is delivered. If that is how my incoming mail has been intercepted, the Post Office as the responsible carrier would certainly be liable for the actions of one of their officials. Secondly, he said that this could occur if somebody were to get the key to a private post box and had a messenger who was prepared to hand over the mail. This last possibility does not concern me. I do not have a private post box. In any case, neither of these two possibilities touches on what happens to outgoing mail which I post myself and which appears on the files of “Witvrou” No. 24596. I posted a letter to Winston Churchill and a letter to Mr. Jonathan Moore of the Department of Politics at Harvard University. Neither of these letters could remotely concern the security of the State. But now they are on file. The two possibilities mentioned by the Postmaster-General therefore do not apply in this case.

The explanation to the riddle is that inside the Post Office there are employees who are in fact security spies. That is the answer. These spies, unbeknown to the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications and the Postmaster-General, have been authorized by some member of the Security Council to perpetrate what I consider a gross invasion of my privacy and that of other hapless citizens who are not security risks at all, but who are political opponents of the Government. I am prepared to bet my bottom dollar that in cases of genuine security risks the normal procedure under section 118A is in fact carried out. When ordinary and normal security risks are involved, a request is made to the functionary by the security services and authority is given for the interception of mail and the tapping of telephones and the request is properly motivated in terms of section 118A.

However, where snooping involves political opponents of the Government who are not security risks, a different procedure is followed. Somebody sneaks off behind the backs of the hon. the Minister and the Postmaster-General and gets permission from a member of the Security Council who does not care whether the request is motivated or not, to intercept mail or to tap telephones in terms of section 118A of the Post Office Act. In this manner the hon. the Minister and the Postmaster-General are circumvented and they are unaware of what is going on in the Post Office.

I now want to ask the hon. the Minister the question whether he is prepared to tolerate this situation in which there is an obvious abuse of the powers given under section 118A of the Post Office Act and an obvious betrayal of the assurances and undertakings given to members of this House by the then Minister of Posts and Telecommunications when the Act was passed. Does he not care that a bunch of snoopers are lurking in his G.P.O.’s and in his local branch post offices? Does he not care that his department contains people who purport to be ordinary employees of the Post Office, but who are in fact secret agents who are tampering with mail and are tapping telephones in cases that by no stretch of the imagination could be considered a threat to the security of the State? In short, is the hon. the Minister prepared to accept a situation wherein a lot of faceless goons are interfering with mail which the Post Office as carrier should be safeguarding for the public, without his knowledge or the knowledge of the Postmaster-General, beyond their control and not accountable to them? What sort of a department is the hon. the Minister running if this sort of disgraceful business can take place? I believe the hon. the Minister owes me, this House and the country as a whole an explanation. Furthermore I want to say that if the hon. the Minister has any pride or any guts at all, he will make it a priority to see to it that the practice which has been carried out quite obviously over all these years behind the backs of successive Postmasters-General and successive Ministers of Posts and Telecommunications, ceases forthwith. He should demand to know whether the Post Office is going to be used as a spy post for the Government, because that is what it is being used as. As I have said, the copies appearing on the files concern people who are not security risks, but who are opponents of the Government. As far as genuine security risks are concerned, the procedure has been clearly laid down and, as I have said, I believe that procedure is probably followed. In such a case somebody from the Security Branch goes to the hon. the Minister, his functionary to whom he has delegated authority, and permission is then given, because the tapping of telephones and the interception of mail have been properly motivated. I do not for one moment believe that it is properly motivated in the case in which people sneak behind the backs of the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications and the Postmaster-General and then get permission from one of the Ministers on the Security Council.

They probably bugged his flower. [Interjections.]

I asked the hon. the Minister who the members of the Security Council were, but, believe it or not, it was not in the public interest to disclose this information, although we know that the hon. the Prime Minister is a member, because the National Security Council Act lays it down. We know that the senior Minister in the Republic, who is always the Leader of the House, as well as the hon. the Ministers of Defence, Foreign Affairs, Justice, Police and some co-opted hon. Ministers are also members of the council. So the only people we cannot identify are the co-opted hon. Ministers.

What has that got to do with the Post Office? [Interjections.]

When did you wake up?

I have got exactly one minute left and I am not going to waste my time educating that ignorant hon. member. [Interjections.] It is these persons on the Security Council who are empowered to give authority for the tapping of telephones and the interception of mail. Now, one of these hon. Ministers over the years, e.g. Mr. Vorster, Mr. P. W. Botha, Mr. Hilgard Muller, Mr. Pelser, Mr. S. L. Muller, Mr. Kruger …

Oh, the Jimmy and Helen show!

No, the Jimmy and Helen show is all over. Other names are Mr. Schlebusch and Mr. Le Grange. These are the only ones who can give such permission. I say the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications must exert his authority and see to it that he is kept informed of the abuse to which his Post Office is being subjected by somebody on the Security Council. [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, I would have preferred us to adjourn for supper on a more pleasant note than the one on which the hon. member for Houghton has now concluded the debate. The hon. member has something on the brain. [Interjections.] She is doing the rounds with a story that has a few code words in it—the one is “White female” and the other is “Operation Buttonhole”. [Interjections.] I have only a few minutes now, and I shall therefore come back to the hon. member later. The hon. member asked me: “What sort of a department is this hon. Minister running?”

†I wish to tell the hon. member that I am running an excellent department. There is all the praise in the world for this department.

Do you know what is happening in it?

A department which is being run like this department of mine cannot and will not allow other people to work behind its back. [Interjections.] What the hon. member for Houghton implied is an insult both to myself and to the Postmaster-General. [Interjections.] But I shall return after dinner to what the hon. member said.

*In the few remaining minutes I wish to express my astonishment at the two Opposition Parties—the two main parties, that spy on each other so assiduously to find out what the other is doing—moving amendments which both contained the same blunder. Be that as it may, this House, by way of a formal resolution, approved the discussion during the Second Reading of the Post Office Appropriation Bill of matters pertaining to the SABC as well, because it falls under this Ministry.

Who pays their salaries?

How can a sensible person use any criticism which he may have of the SABC as motivation for not wanting to accept the Post Office budget, which is a document on its own and has nothing to do with the … [Interjections.]

Order! I must just point out that if it had not occurred in the amendments, the hon. members would not have been entitled to discuss it. That is why I allowed it in the amendments. It was a difficult situation.

Mr. Speaker, I have no quarrel with you. I told you personally that it should be discussed here.

You cannot duck out of it now.

Then the hon. members should have motivated their amendments differently. Do not mix your issues. [Interjections.]

The SABC’s blunders.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Speaker, during a peaceful stage of the debate this afternoon, the hon. member for Wonderboom said that participants in the debate on this side of the House distinguished themselves with the beautiful flowers which they wore in their lapels. This should not be interpreted as a sign that blows will not be meted out if they are needed. I should like to sketch the background to this practice. Over the years I came to realize that it was a tradition that a Minister, whenever he presented a budget speech—whether it is the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Transport Affairs or the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications—wore a white carnation in his lapel. This was also the custom of a very well-known former member of this House, and also Minister, a person who sat in front of me here as Leader of the House for a long time. It was my privilege to live with him in Stellenbosch after he retired as Minister, and every year the late Mr. Paul Sauer and I both wore one of these flowers from his garden to the opening of Parliament.

I felt that it would create a good tradition—particularly to emphasize the uniqueness of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications—for hon. members participating in the Post Office debate to wear a specific kind of flower, a flower which more or less resembled the emblem of the department. This flower has an extra petal, which means the SABC is also represented by it [Interjections.]

But I repeat that this does not mean that we are flower-children and that we will not mete out blows if they are needed. [Interjections.] Before I proceed to reply, separately and chronologically, to the matters which were raised, I want to say something specific to the hon. member for Sandton. [Interjections.] And then I also wish to include the hon. young member for Berea in what I have to say. [Interjections.]

He was very, very reasonable.

No, I do not think he was all that reasonable. I shall speak to him in a moment.

The hon. member for Sandton made a statement here, and it was clear to me that he did so with no other motive but to denigrate and to mar relations in this country. His exclusive purpose was to get at the board of governors of Prof. Mouton, the new chairman of the SABC, with a tar-brush.

What is your number? [Interjections.]

Why do you want to know? Who do you wish to telephone?

This is not the kind of company that Jonas keeps. [Interjections.]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Sandton quoted from a newspaper, the tone of which seemed to be, as has now become the fashion in some modern journalistic circles, to fail to make certain of its facts in advance when it wanted to get at a person. The hon. member did not even telephone Prof. Mouton either. I doubt whether he even telephoned the editor of that newspaper to ask him whether he was certain of his facts. I said here this afternoon that it was absolutely untrue that Prof. Mouton came to Cape Town for political or related reasons.

Are you sure?

I am sure of what I am saying, because I make certain of my facts. [Interjections.] I took the trouble to ask the hon. the Prime Minister whether Prof. Mouton had contacted him over the last weekend or last week. He told me categorically that he had last seen Prof. Mouton a month or so ago.

Did you ask Andries as well?

I asked the hon. the Minister of Public Works the same question. He also gave a negative reply. [Interjections.]

Order!

Oh, so you admit there is a rift?

But of course.

For a member of Parliament the hon. member for Umhlanga is far too silly.

I am sorry the hon. the Prime Minister has problems. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must pay attention now.

Mr. Speaker, apart from the fact that I knew personally that it was not true, I …

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: Is the hon. the Minister allowed to say that an hon. member is “silly”? [Interjections.]

He is not only silly; he is quite ridiculous.

Order! The hon. the Minister may proceed.

Mr. Speaker, if what the hon. the Prime Minister said annoys the hon. member for Orange Grove, I shall … [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: Could I have your ruling on the point of order I have raised?

My ruling is that the hon. the Minister may proceed.

Then the hon. the Prime Minister is also “silly”.

And you are ridiculous.

I wish to repeat that I also knew personally that Prof. Mouton had not been moving about with a view to any political action. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must not force me to take drastic steps this evening.

I know this because on three occasions over the weekend Prof. Mouton’s wife was in telephonic communication with my wife, who is in bed after an accident. His wife underwent an eye operation last Wednesday. On all three occasions my wife told me about the conversations. She said Prof. Mouton sent me greetings from Bloemfontein. Nevertheless I asked my private secretary to telephone Prof. Mouton’s home. He spoke to Mrs. Mouton and she confirmed that Prof. Mouton had definitely not been in Cape Town last week. She said that she had undergone an eye operation on Wednesday and could therefore confirm that he had definitely not paid a visit to Cape Town. But the hon. member for Sandton is not ashamed, in spite of people’s sufferings, to play a role which is as low as one can go. [Interjections.]

He is laughing at it.

You are being comical.

With reference to what the hon. the Prime Minister said a moment ago of another hon. member opposite, viz. that he was silly, I want to say that that hon. member is being a great deal more than objectionable.

Charlie Chaplin!

The hon. member for Stanton …

Where is that?

That is a cross between Sandton and Standerton.

The hon. member must pardon me, but he is placing me in the same category as the hon. member for Durban Central. With the hon. member for Sandton I also wish to include the hon. member for Berea with his insinuations about the board of the SABC, on which …

You were not even listening.

… there are English-speaking of the calibre of Mr. Bill Beck, Dr. Charles Boyce, who is present here, and others.

Were you listening?

Yes, I was listening to the hon. member.

Then you did not understand me.

He must play his childish games somewhere else. This is a place for adults. [Interjections.]

Order!

I include the hon. member for Sandton when I say that none of them are dignified enough to tie the shoelaces of these people to whom we are referring. [Interjections.] I come now to the amendments.

† Point by point I wish to refer, first of all, to the amendment moved by the hon. member for Hillbrow and then to the hon. member for Umhlanga. First I come to the hon. member for Hillbrow. He says—

The hon. member says the rates are excessive. He high-lighted a few of the increases, but the average amounts to 12,7%, which cannot be regarded as excessive. Let me quote one example, a perfect example. An ambassador of one of the European countries told me, after his arrival here in South Africa, that he had a compliment to pay me because, he said, it costs less to send mail through the South African Post Office to a street address in the capital of his country than sending the mail by diplomatic bag from Pretoria to the capital of his country free of charge, affixing stamps there and having it delivered in that city. In other words, the tariffs of the Post Office are among the fairest in the world. After all, this is the first increase since 1975.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member will admit that in the course of those five years the cost of living did not remain static.

Secondly, the hon. member says in his amendment that the Government should close the wage gap existing between Post Office employees of different racial groups. This is the old, old story. I said yesterday in my speech that once again in this budget we were making provision for closing the gap in the lower echelons of employees in the Post Office. Apart from that, from the top we are already doing away with the wage gap. Up to the grade of postmaster, grade II Coloured people are today on the same salary scale as Whites.

What about telecommunication technicians?

The same apply to technicians. We are starting from the top to eliminate completely …

How many years is it going to take?

Not as long as it will take you to get some common sense.

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, but I cannot spend my time instructing that hon. member. [Interjections.]

Order!

I am going to exclude that leg of the hon. member for Hillbrow’s amendment dealing with the SABC for the moment, because I shall deal with that afterwards.

The fourth leg of his amendment is that the Government should give the assurance that the privacy of the individual in the use of Post Office facilities would be inviolate unless the security of the State is jeopardized and the due processes of law are followed. The hon. member for Houghton spoke about this just before I got up to reply. Her impression is that another Minister, a member of the State Security Council, can operate, as she puts it, behind my back in co-operation with spies in my department.

No, in their departments.

No, Sir, the hon. member said explicitly that there are spies in my department. The hon. member for Sea Point is nodding his head.

Yes, there are spies belonging to the Department of National Security.

No, the hon. member said there are spies within my department.

They are within your department, but they belong to the Department of National Security.

Order! I want to point out that when the hon. member for Houghton put her case she was listened to with exemplary silence. I want the hon. the Minister to have a fair and full opportunity to reply to her in the same circumstances.

He is making some misstatements.

Order! The hon. member must now listen to the reply without interrupting.

Thank you, Sir. I have written her words down and she said: “Inside the Post Office there are obviously officials who are security spies.”

Yes.

That is what the hon. member said. Then she said: “Apart from the normal operation, in political cases a different course is followed behind the back of the Minister and the Postmaster-General.”

That is right.

I wish to reiterate that that is absolute nonsense. I regard it as an insult both to myself and to the Postmaster-General and all his officials.

That is a bald-headed statement. [Interjections.]

One cannot say one moment that the department is an excellent department and is operating excellently and the next moment by implication say that the Minister and the head of the department cannot run their department properly but allow spies to operate within their department.

Are you saying there are no buggers in your department?

Order! The hon. member for Bryanston must be very careful with his interjections.

It is very clear to me that the hon. member for Pinelands will have to employ pastoral psychology among his people. Would a department which receives a testimonial such as the one I am going to quote in a moment allow people to operate behind the back of its departmental heads? I wish to quote a letter, with the permission of the writer, viz. Dr. Charles Ferreira, managing director of Mercabank. He wrote as follows to the Postmaster-General—

Can a department which receives such testimonials allow what the hon. member for Houghton insinuated? Although I have reservations—I raised these on 8 February—how can I give an hon. member of this House assurances, and it is traditional in this House that assurances be accepted, if the hon. member states in advance that she shall not accept the assurance of any hon. Minister?

Let us see what kind of game is being played here. Yesterday a report appeared in two newspapers purporting to be a report of an interview with the Postmaster-General. Consequently the hon. member referred this afternoon to the Postmaster-General’s interview with the Rand Daily Mail and The Cape Times. But the truth of the matter is that the Postmaster-General informed journalists in the Transvaal on 26 or 27 February of the additional task he was performing in Soweto. This was followed by an informal discussion. It was not an interview, but what was said there, was held back until yesterday to coincide with the efforts of the hon. member for Houghton here. This was a violation of the confidentiality of a discussion. It is not that there is anything wrong in the report But we can see what kind of game is being played here.

What kind of game is being played?

Can the hon. member not observe what game is being played here. She must not try to tell me she did not know about this.

I did not know about it. I read about it in the newspaper.

Apart from the fact that I said on 8 February that my department had received no request and that no other Minister was able to issue an instruction …

Of course they can.

Even if he can give it it must still be channelled …

Order! The hon. member was treated very fairly when she was stating her case and I am now making a final appeal to her to refrain from making any further interjections.

Let me inform the hon. member that in terms of section 118A of the Post Office Act, a Minister, apart from myself, who is a member of the State Security Council can make such a request, but it still has to be channelled through the functionary, who is the Postmaster-General or his deputy. If the hon. member cannot work that out, then I cannot teach her anything in this regard.

* Apart from what I said on that occasion and the assurance which I gave that as far as my department and I were concerned, we would act in terms of the Act at all times, and apart from the elucidation which the hon. the Prime Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister of National Security gave concerning people who are caught in the net when they communicate with others, I cannot go any further.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Minister: If everything has to be channelled through his department and he knows nothing about the opening of mail addressed to or sent by me, how does the “bronverslag” of the Security Service contain letters which I had sent and which I had received?

Mr. Speaker, I am not concerned with that particular department. [Interjections.] The hon. member is free to put this particular question to the hon. the Prime Minister or the hon. the Deputy Minister again, although they have already explained to her by which means information is being gathered. For instance, authority was not requested from me to intercept the telephone call between the hon. member for Sea Point and Mr. McHenry. Mr. McHenry told our ambassador in Washington that Mr. Eglin ’phoned him.

Was it intercepted?

No, I said there was no interception. Mr. McHenry told our ambassador in Washington about it.

Who are you trying to bluff?

Order!

The hon. member for Sea Point knows the story.

How do you receive instructions now, Colin?

Order!

I now come to the amendment moved by the hon. member for Umhlanga. The first leg of his amendment deals with the SABC. Once again, I leave that for the moment. Secondly, the hon. member referred in his amendment to the failure of the Post Office Administration to eliminate the long waiting-list for telephone services. Let me inform file hon. member that the waiting-list for telephones can never be eliminated in a country with a growth rate or a potential like that of South Africa. There will always be a waiting-list. I tried my utmost yesterday to point out to the hon. member that in the course of this financial year 200 000 new telephones have been installed, compared with 168 000 the previous year. In other words, an increase of 32 000. But in spite of that the waiting-list has grown, especially because of the increased demand in the non-White urban areas. I have already explained to the hon. member that my department is making a special effort now to overcome that. But I can tell the hon. member that despite that there will always be a waiting list.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he is by his statement now negating the statement of the Postmaster-General a year ago when the Postmaster-General stated that he wished to see the day come soon when there would not be a 48-hour delay in executing a telephone application?

I can tell the hon. member that the day has already arrived.

Oh!

Give me the opportunity to reply to the hon. member. The majority of the 200 000 new telephones which have been installed have been installed within a very short period after application. If the department receives applications for an area where the cable network already exists and where everything is ready for installation, it takes only a few days, perhaps even a few hours, to make the installation, but there are problem areas, such as new areas where new cables still have to be laid before the work of installing a telephone can be commenced.

Thirdly, the hon. member speaks about the inadequate postal services. I pointed out, and it is set out in the document which I laid upon the Table yesterday, that the Post Office expects a deficit of R63,197 million in the coming year only on postal services. The question is therefore: Where must we draw the line in providing uneconomic services? The hon. member says that it is not a good or proper service. I think that as long as we can render a service such as we are doing today, although it is done at a loss, and we can balance it with the profits on the telecommunication service, the country is getting an excellent service from the Post Office.

Then, to my surprise, the hon. member for Walmer spoke and he had all the praise in the world for the budget. He also made a few requests. He asked me whether I would be prepared to go to Port Elizabeth at his invitation in order to have a look at the old post office building with a view to the construction of a new building. But then, Sir, just before the hon. member sat down, he said to my astonishment that his party was going to support the amendments moved by the two other parties. Mr. Speaker, if I am to deal with his request for a new post office in Port Elizabeth as seriously as he dealt with the budget, then I am afraid Port Elizabeth will be disappointed. But, Sir, in spite of that I am prepared to go to Port Elizabeth. I am not going to respond to the hon. member in like manner and do to him what he did to me. In spite of his action, and as a result of the request by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, I am prepared to go to Port Elizabeth and have a look at the situation there.

*Mr. Speaker, I come now to the hon. member for Hillbrow, who is the main Opposition spokesman on this matter. That hon. member is upset because the Post Office finances more than 50% of its capital expenditure itself. The hon. member referred to the Franzsen formula which was put into effect in 1972. The hon. member’s argument was that this was only a recommendation and asked whether we should not abandon it now, in 1980, because things are going well, and borrow more money. With all due respect I wish to say that I do not think that the hon. member for Hillbrow ever made an in-depth study of Dr. Franzsen’s recommendations. I do not know whether he knows Dr. Franzsen. I do not know whether the hon. member has any knowledge of what an impact this man has had on the economic world of South Africa. I had the privilege of being a student of Prof. Franzsen, and I know how well-considered his recommendations are. The hon. member is now suggesting that we should move away from that formula and borrow more capital. Surely it would be nonsensical to do a thing like that. By negotiating more loans, which mean redemption and an interest charges in future, we would be imposing an ever-growing burden on every ensuing year and every coming generation. Surely it is beneficial to finance according to the methods we are now adopting, with our own funds, also taking into consideration that we are charging tariffs which are among the best in the world.

Towards the end of his speech the hon. member suggested that tariff reductions were in fact possible. During last year’s budget, and at this juncture as well, we are still unable to gauge precisely how strong the upsurge in the economy during the past year was. I think that we will be able to gauge it in a month or two. We must also gauge it in future. But if it gives the hon. member any pleasure, I want to tell him that the Post Office is not a callous department that wants to milk people dry. I can furnish him with past examples of what was done when an economic revival was evident. Allow me to add here that the Post Office is probably one of the most sensitive barometers of economic activity. If it were to happen that a revival does occur, we could consider affording relief in specific problem areas. This was done in 1974, when the tariffs in the case of airmail letters were reduced to the same tariffs applicable to surface mail. Consequently, if it would give the hon. member pleasure, I would like to give him the assurance that this department is not a callous department. It renders service gladly, and it would also like to give pleasure wherever it can.

The hon. member for Wonderboom gave us an interesting forecast of things to come, particularly in the sphere of microelectronics, in this and ensuing decades. The hon. member is an expert in that field; in fact, he probably knows more about it than any other member in this House. If the hon. member for Umhlanga had been able to digest what the hon. member for Wonderboom had said, he would not have called this budget an “unspectacular budget”. But I shall come back to that later. I want to thank the hon. member for Wonderboom for the way in which he gave us a glimpse into what the future holds for us in the field of micro-electronics. I do not wish to elaborate on that in detail. The hon. member described to us how high fuel costs and travelling expenses could be eliminated, and how one would be able to communicate over long distances within a few seconds. He also referred to a diversity of other facets in this connection.

The hon. member also pleaded for a co-ordination of techniques in this context. I believe that the Post Office will take the lead in this field, because it is the largest, leading institution in this field, and the greatest user of these techniques. As I said yesterday, the Post Office recently entered into five long-term contracts which will ensure that as from 1981 it will be possible to meet most of our internal requirements.

†The hon. member for Umhlanga has described the budget as being unspectacular. I wish to tell the hon. member that that may be so, but then only to people without imagination and knowledge of the subject. If the hon. member had listened to the hon. member for Wonderboom, he would have changed his mind. He also spoke about certain “raw” areas in the budget. I am in doubt whether the hon. member was referring to the leader of his party or to some other sort of raw area.

The hon. member also spoke about the staff problem. I can only tell him that the department is doing its utmost to keep staff and to get staff, but the Post Office, the Railways, the private sector and other semi-State corporations are all hunting the same few well-trained technicians, engineers and people of that kind. That is the problem.

Why have you not trained more?

They are not only hunted in South Africa, but all over the world. There are too few of these trained people available. However, if the hon. member had listened to me yesterday, he would have been aware of what we were doing to get hold of staff, even from overseas, and to encourage people to undergo further training.

*The hon. member also complained about my not having stated in my budget speech how large the percentage increases in salaries would be. I want to inform the hon. member that this matter has been thrashed out with the staff association of the Post Office. They are anxious not to have these shouted out from the roof-tops, particularly not since I also stated that we were going to pay differentiated salaries as from 1 April. They do not want these percentages to be announced because it would tempt the private sector into making certain cost calculations and bidding higher for staff. That is in fact the major problem we are experiencing with regard to certain groups of staff.

I accepted that, but I asked that an average percentage be indicated. That is all.

I gave the hon. member a good reason as to why we cannot publicize an average percentage. I did not do so because there would be salary differentiation.

Yesterday evening I heard on television about a person outside this House who was criticizing the Post Office because it was going to apply salary differentiation. He said that differentiation should rather be applied on merit. What else but merit is receiving our attention now? There are certain regions which are experiencing a shortage of people. I dealt with the waiting list and said that there were in fact many cases in which telephones could be made available within 48 hours. It depends on the development of the area in question.

In this connection I want to give the hon. member for Walmer the same reply as the one to the hon. member for Umhlanga. The hon. member for Walmer asked me whether the 99-year scheme for Black people in Soweto was going to be implemented in co-operation with building societies. My answer is “No”. This is exclusively a Post Office scheme. We are making the loans available ourselves, and I think we are able to do so more cheaply. This is one of our efforts to bring about staff stability. This R1 million in this year’s budget is merely an initial amount. Hon. members will be able to form a good idea if they look at the magnitude of the comparable schemes of the Railways and see that this amount will increase accumulatively in ensuing years.

I come now to the hon. member for Durban Central. I do not wish to carry on with the game of asking him whether he is “Pyper” or “Piper”. [Interjections.] The hon. member referred to the case, if I heard him correctly, of the switchboard staff of Pietermaritzburg municipality.

In the provincial council building.

The hon. member knows the system which is in operation here in Parliament.

That is a different matter.

I want to tell the hon. member that the same can be done as the Post Office is doing in the case of numerous large companies. They have their own staff, and there is no ban on their appointing their own staff. The Post Office even helps with the training of the staff of private firms in the operating of large switchboards. If the hon. member would pass on the message in Natal, the provincial administration could appoint their own staff, and the Post Office will help to train these people and bring them up to date with the latest techniques.

The hon. member for Bethlehem made a very good contribution on the philatelic services. That hon. member is of course a member of the Postage Stamp Advisory Committee of the Post Office, something for which we are greatly indebted to him. The hope which he expressed this afternoon is very true, viz. that a conservative policy in connection with the issueing of postage stamps gains recognition and respect throughout the world in the long run. I thank the hon. member very much for that contribution.

†I wish to address the hon. member for Berea again. The hon. member said it was not necessary for me to threaten the CB radio owners. My immediate reply was that it was not a threat, but just a warning. If I look at the daily papers, especially The Argus, I read almost every day about this or that politician of the Opposition parties or that member of another population group having issued a warning to the Government. [Interjections.] I ask the hon. member what is wrong if I and my department regard it as being necessary to sound a warning here? If the hon. member will allow me I can quote to him what has happened as far as the CB is concerned—

*It is not everyone who does this. But that does not make any difference. It continues—

That is why I sounded a warning. Was it not better, instead of the reaction of that hon. young member for Berea, who accused me of uttering threats, to react instead as the president of the Cape Citizen Band Radio Council, Mr. Ian Meggy, did?

†I quote from The Cape Times of this morning—

Should the hon. member, who is supposed to be a responsible member of this House, not also support me in my appeal to users of citizen band to co-operate? Instead he tells me not to threaten those people. [Interjections.] I do not wish to be called a bad buddy. [Interjections.] I know the whole scene of citizen band radio. My son also has a CB radio.

Are you a good or a bad buddy? [Interjections.]

If ever I made use of the CB I hope that I should be a better buddy than the hon. member for Bryanston. [Interjections.]

Order!

The hon. member for Bryanston is not a “buddy” at all.

The hon. member for Berea also wanted to know from me whether Christmas cards could not, by way of a Yuletide gesture, be sent free of charge during one month of the year. Unfortunately this cannot be done. It costs money. The Post Office is already suffering heavy losses, and cheaper tariffs cannot be considered either, owing to the system of automatic mail-sorting which is going to be introduced.

The hon. member for Boksburg spoke with great praise of the department. He also praised the department’s decision to sell vacant sites in his constituency so that they may be put to good use and the municipality of Boksburg can derive an income from them. My reply to this question is that this is now being done on a country-wide basis. The Post Office is now making a survey of its needs and of the land which it still has at its disposal. The Post Office is now doing on a country-wide basis what it did in the case of Boksburg.

†I now want to deal with the matter of the SABC. I should of course have included the hon. member for Umhlanga in what I said in the beginning when I referred to the hon. member for Sandton. The hon. member for Umhlanga said the SABC was nothing more than a tool of the NP. [Interjections.] I challenge the hon. member to bring me the proof of what he said. [Interjections.]

Every evening’s television news broadcast, for example.

Order!

That is of course what hon. members opposite read in the English-language newspapers every day, and what is more they believe it. That is why they come here with these stories. However, they did not bring any proof. The hon. member for Umhlanga made an unproven statement here.

What about “Current Affairs”? [Interjections.]

The hon. member also complained that Cabinet Ministers appeared too frequently on television.

What about Punt? [Interjections.]

Why is the hon. member complaining then? [Interjections.]

The more frequently Ministers appear on TV, the better.

Order! I warned the hon. member for Bryanston earlier on. I now forbid him to make any further interjections during this debate.

I took the trouble to have equipment installed in my office, here and in Pretoria, with which one can watch television programmes again. On one occasion, after a discussion, I took the trouble to show the hon. members for Umhlanga, Moor River and Durban Point what was happening on TV.

I still showed you how the thing worked.

Yes. [Interjections.] I tried to indicate to hon. members that, unlike the case with the newspaper which one has in print before one, one is left with a specific impression when one hears something over the radio or sees something on television. Those three hon. members believed that the news coverage of the SABC-TV on the second day of the no-confidence debate had contained no reference to the hon. leader of the NRP. However, when we switched on the cassette recording, we found that after the reporter had reported what the hon. the Prime Minister had said at the end of the debate, he mentioned what the hon. member for Durban Point had said. Will the hon. member admit that I am right? He was under the impression that there was nothing, but it appeared very prominently there. [Interjections.] However I know what the grievance was all about…

It is discrimination against the PFP.

… because in that same programme the hon. the Minister of Finance was subsequently interviewed so that he could further elucidate what he had had to say about his faith in gold. That was what the grievance was all about, because those hon. members are all Natalians, and the hon. the Minister of Finance also comes from Natal. [Interjections.] I now wish to repeat the advice which I gave those hon. members in my office that morning: Change your topic. Do not talk politics in the no-confidence debate and you will be put on TV. [Interjections.] The hon. member went on to say that the news last night happened to be good.

Yes, excellent!

Yesterday evening it so happened that I also appeared on television. Is the hon. member objecting to that? [Interjections.]

Order! I think the hon. member for Umhlanga has also had enough opportunity for interjections.

The hon. member himself was quoted on television last night. Attention was given to his comment that the budget was unspectacular, that strange comment which I think only a person without imagination could make. In other words, the medium lends itself to a person who wishes to make a fool of himself. [Interjections.] The hon. member says he cannot stand Cliff Saunders’ face. He says Cliff Saunders appears too frequently on television. Can the hon. member tell me when Cliff Saunders last appeared on the television screen? That hon. member is walking around with an impression which he cannot substantiate, and then he takes up the time of this House with that kind of criticism. The hon. member also asked whether, in a programme with commentary, the word “comment” could not appear somewhere. In a private conversation with hon. members I undertook to convey the matter to the SABC, and the SABC has no objection to it Consequently this will be done. Those hon. members should simply exercise a little patience. The hon. member complained about dubbing. There is an idea going around that only the best programmes are dubbed into Afrikaans, while the worst appear on the English programmes.

I did not say that at all.

A part of the controversy over dubbing is a veiled resistance to the achievement of bilingualism in this country. [Interjections.] It does not want to surface, but it is there.

It is hatred of Afrikaans. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Sandton, and I think the hon. member for Umhlanga as well, reproached me because the annual report of the SABC was only tabled yesterday. When I told the hon. member for Sandton, by way of an interjection to go and read the Act, they looked at me with such astonished faces. It is stated in the Broadcasting Act that the SABC shall submit an annual report to the Minister before the end of April every year.

Then why do you bring a debate on now?

The financial year of the SABC is not the same as that of Government departments, which extends from 1 April to 31 March. The SABC financial year runs from 1 January to 31 December. These reports arrived here hot from the printing press yesterday. I think it is an achievement for the SABC to table its annual report within less than three months after the end of the financial year. What price now the great protest and indignation of the hon. member for Umhlanga? I wish something else would happen to him as well.

It is too hot to read.

I have mentioned the unsavoury references to the board of the SABC. I hope the board itself takes cognizance of those references, and I hope the young hon. member for Berea, and the hon. member for Sandton, will have the courage to adopt the same standpoint towards those gentlemen personally as the one they adopted here. They hide behind parliamentary privilege, and then make snide remarks about people whose shoe-laces they are not fit to tie. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Sandton also said that the SABC presented the Cillié report in a one-sided manner. That again shows how one-sided the information of the hon. member is. In a local newspaper—the hon. member should not read only one newspaper and believe it to be the alpha and omega—there was a leading article in which a one-sided and brief quotation was made from the news commentary of the SABC of that day. I asked for the full report to be brought to me. When I read it, it was apparent how incomplete that quotation was. Apart from that I also sent for the full coverage by the SABC of the Cillié report, and there was no question of it being one-sided.

I listened to it. It was very one-sided.

No, the hon. member listened to it and forgot that which he did not like and then …

Let us play the cassette on your machine.

The hon. member is welcome to come to me. It is an open invitation to all the hon. members who have any objections. Let them come to me. Then we can examine what the SABC said and we can compare it with what some newspaper said. This reminds me of something else. All newspapers publish daily TV columns. I think that there should be a weekly programme on television, providing a survey of what had been written in the newspapers.

Hear, hear!

The hon. member went on to say that the SABC attacked people, while those people were denied the right to reply. But that is precisely what he did in regard to Prof. Mouton, because Prof. Mouton cannot defend himself here either.

He can defend himself.

However, the hon. member brought no proof that the SABC has done this. He makes a statement, but produces no proof.

I want to bet you will give him a half-hour on the box.

The hon. member said the SABC made an attack on Mr. Percy Qoboza. Once again he did not prove what the attack was or whether it was correct or incorrect. The hon. member also said the SABC was losing people because of political frustration. I think the political frustration is on the other side. The Broadcasting Corporation is a large organization, and with the type of programmes which it offers and the services which it renders, it attracts staff who, like the swallows, also like to migrate with the changing of the seasons, only to return again next season. This is what happens in normal course of events. It happens in every Government department. As I indicated yesterday, more than 8 000 people resigned within a year from my department. They did so because of more lucrative offers and similar reasons. It goes without saying that people from the SABC will move on to rival radio networks. But many return.

Have you talked to any of those people?

Yes, I have talked to some of those people. The hon. member need not be concerned about that.

Did you speak to them personally?

The hon. member is aggravating the gossip-mongering by saying that an English-speaking person cannot get anywhere in the SABC. Then the hon. member must tell me that the English-speaking members of the board of the SABC—not I, because I do not make the appointments—are not doing their work. [Interjections.]

Order!

The hon. member for Bloemfontein North, who is a former journalist and has a good understanding of what news is, justifiably asked this question here: What is news? Hon. members complained that they appear too infrequently on television—they did not discuss the radio—but they do not have any concept of what is newsworthy.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Minister to consider allowing that crowd to appear on television more often, to our advantage? It would perhaps be a good thing.

Order! The hon. the Minister must refer to hon. members on the opposite side as “the hon. members”. [Interjections.]

I am inclined to agree with my colleague, but the fact of the matter is that I have to ensure that there is impartiality on television. If the hon. member for Sandton had appeared on television with his performance this afternoon, things would have gone rather badly for him. The hon. member for Bloemfontein North also referred to the role which television can play, specifically the coming TV 2, in the promotion of human relations. I am grateful that the hon. member raised this subject, and particularly for the very important aspects which he highlighted, viz. that employers can make provision at concentration points for their workers to watch television.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question?

Order! Is the hon. the Minister willing to reply to another question?

Yes, Sir, I am willing.

In regard to the remark relating to English-speaking people at the top, why was Mr. Phillips’s appointment, which was only two years old, not renewed? He was a member of the board of governors.

Mr. Speaker, can you see the acrimoniousness of the motive behind the hon. member’s question? He is now referring to an English-speaking member, but Mr. Viljoen who was not re-appointed either, was an Afrikaans-speaking member. [Interjections.] Although appointments are made by the State President, I accept full responsibility for the recommendations, and I think I have done a good job. I recommended that an additional English-speaking member be appointed to the board, but the hon. member does not seem to be aware of this. I recommended people of the calibre of Dr. Charles Boyce and Mr. Bill Beck …

Why was the appointment of Mr. Phillips not renewed?

While the hon. member is now committing the terrible error of mentioning the name of someone outside this House, I want to tell him that I consider Mr. Phillips to be of a higher calibre than the hon. member. He may converse at any time with Mr. Phillips, for whom I have very great respect.

Is it because he was not a yes-man on the board?

Not at all. Is the hon. member suggesting that I only appoint yes-men on the board? The hon. member should give some thought to what he has said, but he is becoming so emotional that he is not capable of doing so. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Durban Central alleged that all the TV programmes are extremely poor, and then told an incomprehensible story to which the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central replied very effectively. I am sorry that the hon. member for Durban Central made such a statement this afternoon. That is all I have to say about it. The hon. member will have to reflect on human relations and move out of the narrow circle in which he finds himself.

The hon. member for Rosettenville stated his case very effectively and proved that there was indeed great esteem for the service which the SABC is rendering, in spite of the discordant sounds which we are hearing from the other side of this House. He indicated how Black literature and culture could be promoted by means of the radio and television. If hon. members do not believe what the hon. member for Rosettenville said, I want, by way of confirmation, to read what is stated on page 14 of the latest annual report of the SABC on news services—

I want the hon. member for Umhlanga to listen to this—

I have a suspicion that this is approximately the level which the support of the PFP has reached. [Interjections.]

There is no doubt that mistakes are being made, because no one in the world is perfect, but I cannot accept that the SABC service is as poor as the hon. member for Umhlanga and other hon. members alleged. Apart from the market research which was carried out, I want to point out that during the past six months I have been in contact with and received messages and impressions from several leaders in Black Africa who do not agree with the Government but who have what I could almost call a profound respect for the objectivity and reliability of the SABC news service. In fact, it has been blatantly stated to me that they prefer to listen to the SABC news service in order to get an objective and comprehensive picture than to their own and other services. Unfortunately I cannot tell the hon. members who these people are, but it struck me that leaders in Africa who are not well-disposed towards this Government, have the highest praise for the objectivity of the SABC news service, while such discordant sounds as the ones we heard this afternoon emanate from the hon. members of the Opposition.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central asked, if I heard correctly, whether radio licence fees for civil pensioners falling into the same income category as social pensioners, could not also be reduced. He said he had been waiting for a year now for a reply. I wish to set the hon. member straight. Last year this subject did not fall under my predecessor, at present the hon. the Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs. At the time it fell under the hon. the Minister of National Education. Consequently the hon. member must raise this matter on another occasion.

The hon. member for Berea asked for television licence fees to be reduced in the same way for pensioners, to R5 or R6. These are the figures the hon. member used. That is all very well. The concession to radio licence holders who are pensioners has existed since the SABC began in the late ’thirties. From that time already this distinction has been made. Today the department is dependent on licence revenue, and it has to make its calculations carefully, particularly as far as television licences are concerned, for if a concession were to be made on this level, i.e. approximately one sixth of the television licence fees per annum, it would mean an estimated loss of revenue of R12 million for the SABC.

Just for pensioners?

Yes, for pensioners. It is R12 million on the basis of radio licence holders in that category. With all the compassion which I have for pensioners—and the hon. member must listen to me now—with all the sympathy which I have for the aged—and I had a lot to do with them in a previous position—I nevertheless wish to say that we must not make impossible demands of an organization which is dependent on its revenue, for, unlike in the case of radio, an aged person who can afford a television set costing upwards of R900 can also afford a licence fee of R36.

I spoke specifically about the little portables.

I shall return to this point again. Even at that licence fee one evening’s television viewing—hon. members may as well work it out—costs less than 10 cents. If one multiplies 38 by 10 one gets 380. It costs less than 10 cents a day. Most newspapers now cost 15 cents a day. That is why I do not think it is an excessively high licence fee which is being charged here.

This brings me to the end of what I wanted to discuss. Once again I want to avail myself of this opportunity to thank hon. members on this side of the House for their positive contributions, and to express my thanks to the Postmaster-General and the staff of the Post Office, and also to the senior officials of the SABC, for the dedicated service which they are rendering.

Question put: That all the words after “That” stand part of the Question,

Upon which the House divided:

Ayes—93: Ballot, G. C; Blanché, J. P. I.; Botha, C. J. van R.; Botha, P. W.; Botha, S. P.; Coetzer, H. S.; Conradie, F. D.; Cuyler, W. J.; De Beer, S. J.; De Jager, A. M. van A.; De Klerk, F. W.; Delport, W. H.; Du Plessis, B. J.; Du Plessis, G. C.; Du Plessis, P. T. C.; Durr, K. D.; Durrant, R. B.; Du Toit, J. P.; Geldenhuys, A.; Geldenhuys, B. L.; Geldenhuys, G. T.; Greeff, J. W.; Grobler, J. P.; Hayward, S. A. S.; Hefer, W. J.; Heine, W. J.; Herman, F.; Heyns, J. H.; Hugo, P. B. B.; Janson, J.; Koornhof, P. G. J.; Kotzé, G. J.; Kotzé, W. D.; Langley, T.; Le Roux, F. J. (Brakpan); Le Roux, Z. P.; Ligthelm, C. J.; Ligthelm, N. W.; Lloyd, J. J.; Louw, E. van der M.; Malan, G. F.; Malan, W. C. (Paarl); Malan, W. C. (Randburg); Mentz, J. H. W.; Meyer, R. P.; Myburgh, G. B.; Nel, D. J. L.; Niemann, J. J.; (Dickers, R. de V.; Potgieter, S. P.; Rabie, J.; Raubenheimer, A. J.; Rencken, C. R. E.; Rossouw, W. J. C.; Schoeman, H.; Schutte, D. P. A.; Simkin, C. H. W.; Smit, H. H.; Steyn, D. W.; Steyn, S. J. M.; Swiegers, J. G.; Tempel, H. J.; Terblanche, G. P. D.; Treurnicht, A. P.; Ungerer, J. H. B.; Uys, C.; Van Breda, A.; Van den Berg, J. C.; Van der Merwe, W. L.; Van der Spuy, S. J. H.; Van der Walt, A. T.; Van der Walt, H. J. D.; Van der Westhuyzen, J. J. N.; Van Eeden, D. S.; Van Heerden, R. F.; Van Niekerk, S. G. J.; Van Rensburg, H. M. J. (Mossel Bay); Van Rensburg, H. M. J. (Rosettenville); Van Vuuren, J. J. M. J.; Van Wyk, A. C; Van Zyl, J. G.; Van Zyl, J. J. B.; Veldman, M. H.; Visagie, J. H.; Volker, V. A.; Wessels, L.; Worrall, D. J.

Tellers: J. T. Albertyn, L. J. Botha, J. H. Hoon, F. J. le Roux (Hercules), P. J. van B. Viljoen and A. J. Vlok.

Noes—23: Aronson, T.; Bartlett, G. S.; Basson, J. D. du P.; Dalling, D. J.; De Villiers, I. F. A.; Eglin, C. W.; Lorimer, R. J.; Miller, R. B.; Myburgh, P. A.; Oldfield, G. N.; Page, B. W. B.; Pyper, P. A.; Rossouw, D. H.; Schwarz, H. H.; Slabbert, F. van Z.; Sutton, W. M.; Suzman, H.; Swart, R. A. F.; Van der Merwe, S. S.; Van Rensburg, H. E. J.; Wood, N. B.

Tellers: B. R. Bamford and A. L. Boraine.

Question affirmed and amendments dropped.

Bill read a Second Time.

Committee Stage

Clause1:

Mr. Chairman, I want to try to clarify a very interesting point which has arisen out of the reply which the hon. the Minister gave to me in the Second Reading debate. The hon. the Minister says that whatever is done as far as the interception of mail or the tapping of telephones is concerned, has to be channelled through the Post Office. I think I am quoting him correctly. The hon. the Minister also told the hon. member for Sandton to go and read the Act.

That is right.

Well, I should like to give the same advice to the hon. the Minister. He must go and read the Act.

I know the Act.

Well I know the Act too, and I want to tell the hon. the Minister …

Then there are two of us.

Right, but there are more than the two of us who know the Act I have been consulting Senior Counsel about this.

Does he know the Act?

Yes, he knows the Act all right. So far Senior Counsel disagrees with the hon. the Minister …

Let him disagree then.

Never mind about letting him disagree. If the hon. the Minister is right, I am going to sue him. That is the point I am trying to make.

What?

If the hon. the Minister is right in saying that everything has to be channelled through the Post Office, I am going to sue him up hill and down dale, I’ll have him know. [Interjections.] Yes, indeed, because if he is right, then prima facie a criminal offence has been committed in which the Post Office is involved.

I have said that permission must be asked from the Postmaster-General who is, in terms of that section …

The only functionary?

The functionary or his deputy.

All right. However, according to the Act…

It may be me or another Minister who requests it, but he is the functionary.

Well, I am glad to hear that. I hope Hansard is taking this down very carefully.

[Inaudible.]

Order! I cannot allow two-way conversations across the floor.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, let me say that I am on my feet So you must stop the hon. the Minister interjecting.

That is my intention.

Fine. Anyway, the point I am making is that as the Act stands there is an ambiguity because there are those who think that, behind the backs of the hon. the Minister and the Postmaster-General, a person who is delegated by the Security Services can go and ask for permission to intercept mail or tap telephones and that that permission may be given irrespective of the opinions of either the Postmaster-General or the hon. the Minister.

How come?

Because that is the way the Act has been interpreted, but I am very glad to hear that there is a possibility that we may be wrong because, as I say, then we have a very nice case in law.

Then it is a criminal offence.

Yes, of course it is a criminal offence because somebody has done this and it must have been done to …

[Inaudible.]

I have the greatest respect for Senior Counsel Bamford but I have in fact been consulting Senior Counsel in Johannesburg. [Interjections.] So far Senior Counsel in Johannesburg has not agreed with the hon. the Minister, and I hope the hon. the Minister is right because, as I say, I shall then sue him up hill and down dale. Can he then kindly explain to me, and to this Committee, if no permission has been given by the functionary who, according to the hon. the Minister can only be the person to whom he has delegated his authority, i.e. the Postmaster-General or the Deputy Postmaster-General—and there is a denial on record that such permission has been requested of the Postmaster-General or the functionary—how all these reports which are photostat reports of my letters came to appear in “Bronverslae” belonging to the Special Branch files, from 1976-’79. To the best of my knowledge this may still be going on, because the hon. the Prime Minister, during the no-confidence debate, did not include me in the assurance he gave that no MP’s mail was being tampered with. [Interjections.]

Are you not an MP?

Yes, but the hon. the Prime Minister said that he did not include the hon. member for Houghton in his assurance. He specifically excluded me from the assurance he gave. [Interjections.]

That is not true.

He did not say that.

Oh, but here it is. I have the actual speech. The hon. the Prime Minister said exactly that. He said he did not exclude the correspondents of the hon. member for Houghton. [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

Right. That is a different matter. However, included in the correspondence is a letter which was sent on my air-letter card, with my name and address on the back, and nobody could have known …

Why?

Because the writer borrowed one of my air-letter cards with my permission. [Interjections.]

Why did he borrow it?

He was a guest in my house. Nobody could have known that I had not signed that letter if that letter had not been intercepted and opened. It is as simple as that. If the hon. the Minister would like to examine this file he is absolutely …

I am not interested in your file.

The hon. the Minister should be. [Interjections.] The hon. the Minister should be interested, because he is going to have to testify in a court of law very shortly. If what the hon. the Minister was saying is correct…

Are you trying to threaten me?

I am warning the hon. the Minister. [Interjections.] If what the hon. the Minister has said so far is correct, and if what Senior Counsel in Johannesburg has advised me so far is incorrect…

Johannesburg?

Yes, Johannesburg. He is a former chairman of the Johannesburg Bar, and I shall be seeking further advice as a result of the information the hon. the Minister has given me. Will the hon. the Minister tell me how it is that my letters appear in the “Bronverslae”? I have here a letter, from Helen Suzman to Jonathan Moore who is the head of the Department of Politics at the Harvard School of Politics in Cambridge, Massachusetts, which sets out my plans for going overseas to lecture to students and faculty and suggests topics for lectures. I might say that the lectures were very good. The hon. the Minister could learn a lot from them. I am prepared to allow the hon. the Minister to read them. Will the hon. the Minister kindly explain to me how that occurred? It could not be through the method suggested by the Postmaster-General in his interview, where he said that somebody could evidently bribe a postman to refrain from delivering a letter until someone else had examined it, or that someone could have access to a private box. That cannot be so. I posted these letters myself. I might add that in future I shall not be using my local post box or my local post office because it is clear to me that somebody in the post office is intercepting mail. [Interjections.] The insult is this. The insult is my letter appearing in a “Bronverslag” …

That has nothing to do with me.

How did they get hold of the letters then?

How did they get hold of my letters? Will the hon. the Minister kindly answer this very simple question? I do not have only one letter. I have a batch of about eight letters, all either addressed to me or sent by me to other people, and all are “Bronverslae” which are marked “Geheim” and which clearly belong to the Department of National Security.

Disgraceful!

It is utterly disgraceful. Not only is it disgraceful, but also no explanation has been forthcoming. As I say, if the hon. the Minister’s interpretation of section 118A of the Post Office Act is correct …

Yes.

The hon. the Minister says “yes”. I want him to say it louder so that Hansard can hear it.

I have said that on several occasions. Go and read the Act again.

Say it again, Sam. [Interjections.] Just say it again.

What is more, it constitutes a criminal offence. [Interjections.]

I just want the hon. the Minister to say again that he believes that this has all to be channelled through the Post Office because …

I have never said the hon. member for Houghton’s mail has been channelled through the Post Office. What I said …

Order! The hon. the Minister can reply to this at a later stage.

In a court of law.

Yes, in a court of law. [Interjections.]

Order! I never spoke of a court of law. The hon. member must not put words into my mouth.

I have never mentioned you, Sir, to the best of my knowledge.

What did the hon. member mean then when she spoke about a court of law?

I was not referring to you, Sir. I was referring to the hon. the Minister.

The hon. member may proceed.

In each of these events the hon. the Minister is going to have to answer in a court of law, and I can indeed not wait for him to get there. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, it is clear that the hon. member for Houghton is still harping on the telephone-tapping string. It is also clear why she is doing this. She wants to play politics, and that is all. [Interjections.] It is also clear that she does not want to accept the word of the hon. the Minister. She is expecting the wrong person to explain to her how this has happened. If the letters intercepted by the Security Branch are of such an innocent nature, why then is the hon. member so worried about the whole thing?

You seem to forget about the whole principle involved.

This evening I should like to touch on an entirely innocent subject, viz. the issue of relay stations for television. It is now more than four years since the introduction of our full-time television service in South Africa, and a large section of the population can watch television programmes freely. When we look at the map showing television transmitting stations, published in the annual report of the SABC, it does seem as if very good coverage is provided throughout the country. However, I maintain that some of those transmitting stations indicated on the map do not yet transmit television programmes. For example, a transmitting station at Kareedouw, in my constituency, is shown on the map. However, that transmitting station is not yet transmitting television programmes. Nor does the map show that large parts of the platteland are totally without television coverage.

I believe that the SABC will agree that there are still large parts of the country which have no television reception. It is of course, I believe, the aim of the SABC to provide a television service to all regions of the country. When our television service came into being, hundreds of private and public bodies and persons, and even businessmen who wanted to sell TV sets, constructed relay stations. At that time no specifications or requirements for relay stations had been laid down. They did not construct these relay stations because they wanted to infringe the laws of the land. They would have preferred to remain within the law. They did it merely in order to sell the sets and to have the pleasure of television. I am informed by the SABC that at one stage there were no fewer than 900 such illegal stations throughout the country. The Republic belongs to the International Telecommunications Union which exercises very stringent control of all transmissions. This control was entrusted to the Post Office, which in turn entrusted it to the SABC. I want to state very clearly that I am in favour of control. I am sure that if we had not had control in this regard we should have had complete confusion. In order to give effect to the directive issued to the SABC, the SABC issued a Press statement on 6 March 1978 in order to make the matter clear to people who possessed relay stations. I should just like to recall what that Press statement said. It began by saying—

Secondly—

That was all very well. That set a very fine ideal. However, it is not so easy for all these people or bodies to change their stations so promptly. One does not seek to excuse all of them, of course. Probably some of them were wilful and did not want to hear, but there were other reasons too. To replace such a relay station can cost anything between R10 000 and R25 000. It is not a cheap transaction. It is true that the SABC has a programme on the basis of which it constructs television stations. In December 1978 stations were to be constructed at Grahamstown, Kuruman, Eshowe and Potgietersrus, and in March 1979, at Nelspruit, Kareedouw, Piketberg and Upington. Then, by the end of June 1979, stations were to be constructed at Keiskammahoek, Volksrust, Suurberg, etc. A number of others were also proposed. On the day that this was explained to us, I asked a question. I asked whether those who were in any event going to be served by an SABC station within a short time, within a few months, could not be granted a short postponement until such time as they could receive transmissions from the new station. I think that at the time a concession was made that they could in fact continue until such time as the new station came into operation, as long as that could be done within a reasonable time, of course. However, delays then occurred in regard to the construction of the station. For example, the Kareedouw station, which was to have begun transmitting in March 1979, is not yet in operation. In the meantime, the existing Kareedouw station was closed in August last year. Therefore those people no longer have any television service. I should therefore like to know from the hon. the Minister what progress has been made with the programme which has been submitted to us, and also whether there have been many delays.

Then, too, there have been local bodies which were to have stepped in and assisted with regard to the replacement of relay stations. However, we know what the situation often is with local bodies. There are specifications that have to be drawn up, long procedures to be followed and agreements which have to be concluded. Therefore many of these local bodies are taking a long time to construct the relay stations. I know that the SABC adopts a sympathetic attitude towards the platteland and I know that the SABC would like to serve all the remote farms. However it is not as easy as that. Many of the farms are situated in steep valleys or behind mountains, and the only way they can be served is by way of a small relay station. We therefore believe that the SABC would like to serve the whole country. Within a short time we are going to get TV 2, which will have to serve even more areas. My request to the hon. the Minister is, therefore, to see to it that the SABC approaches the matter of the replacement of the illegal stations with sympathy and compassion and treats each case on merit It is all very well to say that the Act says that it must be replaced, but I maintain that if such a relay station does not disturb anyone, it does serve a good purpose, and one should perhaps wait a little to see whether the stations which the SABC are going to construct within a short time will not perhaps serve these people.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Humansdorp apparently also has his problems with the hon. the Minister in respect of the SABC. I sincerely hope and trust he gets more joy than we on these benches have had today.

We have come to a late hour of the day and I think we should probably sail on calmer waters. In the Committee Stage there are certain matters of a more parochial nature I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister.

[Inaudible.]

I thought for one moment the hon. member for Von Brandis was back. Firstly, I should like to deal with a problem that besets a number of the telephone exchanges in what can be termed the platteland and which I think do not have much hope of ever going automatic. The problem is that while the new rates make provision for a half rate charge between 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. and a third of the rate between 10 p.m. and 7 am. that does not apply there. The only concession people served by the little platteland exchanges get is a half rate between midnight and 6 a.m. I do not think this is fair. As a matter of fact, I think it is discrimination. It is discrimination against the worthy farmers.

Boerehaters.

Yes. I think it is grossly unfair and something the hon. the Minister should look at closely and possibly do something about.

A second point I should like to raise concerns the Durban North post office. Hon. members may wonder why the member for Umhlanga talks about the Durban North post office. That is easy: The Durban North post office is in the Umhlanga constituency. I want to give an example of the kind of responsible criticism one can get. I want to read the letter I have here. I was going to speak on this matter, but the letter says it all—

Sir, that criticism is fair and every single word of that letter is true. As this gentleman has pointed out, the staff are courteous and friendly under extremely difficult circumstances. The conditions at the post office are appalling. It is a post office that is very badly designed and it is quite true to say that people frequently have to queue outside on the pavement before getting into the post office and ultimately being served.

I also want to support the hon. member for Berea in respect of his plea for the Citizen Band radio. I want to back up his plea and probably bring some further information to the hon. the Minister’s attention. There are 80 000 licences issued, as has already been said. That means R800 000 additional revenue that has accrued to the Post Office, and that is a lot of money. If the hon. the Minister is to lower the boom on the Citizen Band—and I do not want to get embroiled in the argument as to whether it is a warning or a threat or whatever—he is going to lower the boom on something in the region of R16 million that has been invested by private individuals who have entered this field, be it for pleasure or whatever, because that figure is based on an average of R200 for a set and its installation. One must include the antenna and all the various ancillary parts like transformers which go with it. I think that figure is a conservative estimate. If one considers the single side-band sets, this figure could possibly go up to R20 million.

I now want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister. He has listed a number of offences. During his reply to the Second Reading he indicated the problem areas to the House and I want to ask that those people who offend should be prosecuted. This is the answer. I believe they can be caught.

On what charge?

Under the provisions of the Act. They can be prosecuted for the use of foul language over the air and for the very things that the hon. the Minister has outlined here. There are plenty of charges that can be preferred. They can and should be prosecuted because the hon. the Minister will probably achieve a lot more if they can be seen to be prosecuted.

Are you complaining about the slang?

No. If the hon. member did not listen to the speech, I cannot help him.

I now want to turn my attention to television. [Interjections.] We have had our arguments on this. In a friendly spirit I have a few suggestions to make as far as the television service is concerned. Firstly, the annual report tells us that a lot of television income is derived from commercials. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to look into a habit that is making itself felt in the television service and that is that, while one is seated comfortably watching a television programme, when commercial time arrives all of a sudden the volume is turned up. I know that is the moment when we get the message from the sponsors but I should like to get this message quietly. I do not like having my eardrums blasted by a sudden spurt of volume. This is an old advertising gimmick. One is watching a very nice gentle sort of programme when all of a sudden the sponsor’s message is put across, and in no uncertain fashion. I believe that this can be stopped. It is very simple. It is merely a question of setting the volume at an acceptable level and maintaining it at that level.

Secondly, I want to mention in the friendliest possible spirit the matter of advertisements which are sent out with the reminders to pay television licences. Quite frankly, when I receive an account I do not like to have junk mail included with my account. I do not appreciate it and I do not like it I am not alone in this. The question has been asked in the House whether the organizations, whose advertisements were circularized with the official television licence renewal forms, paid for this privilege. We know that they paid some R25 200 and that in addition they have to pay a commission for every service contract sold, but this service contract only applies to one firm. It advertises Nationwide Television and also Lewis Stores. I would like to know whether other firms were afforded the opportunity to tender for this.

Of course. Does the hon. member have my reply to the question?

Yes, I have it. Asked whether it was intended to continue this practice, the hon. the Minister replied in the affirmative, and to the question of whether the circulation was made known to other enterprises with a view to equal opportunity to participate, the reply was merely “yes”. The hon. the Minister went on to say that he did not plan to interfere in the legitimate business operations of the SABC. I accept that, but I do make this appeal to the hon. the Minister, because I do not think this is done in the best of taste. I think it is a practice that should be stopped because, after all, an amount of R36 is quite an appreciable amount of money to pay and I do not believe it is in the best interests of the status of the SABC to incorporate some junk-mail advertising with its accounts.

I now wish to turn to the question of political debates. Again, in all friendliness, I say to the hon. the Minister that in this regard we have had a challenge thrown across the floor here today. Let us see some political debates. The hon. member for Mooi River has asked repeatedly across the floor of this House that he be given an opportunity to enter into a debate. So let us have this on the television screen. Let us have a panel consisting of members of the Government, members of the official Opposition, members of the NRP and members of the SAP and let us have political debates. Let us really have an opportunity to vent our feelings before the South African public.

The final item I wish to refer to is dubbing. Dubbing is a problem in that it is difficult when one listens to a programme, particularly on the Afrikaans service—and I hasten to add that I make no distinction on the basis of discrimination because I have never brought English versus Afrikaans into any question debated across the floor of this House—not to be struck by the fact that there are obviously a limited number of artists who can do this dubbing. One will listen to a programme with a certain set of voices and then listen to an entirely different programme with the same set of voices. I think there must be a more imaginative approach in this field so that we do not have the same voices dubbing programmes all the time, because this does not make for good television reception. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is quite clear to me that due to a lack of arguments, the hon. members of the Opposition are raising matters of such insignificance that I am not going to spend my time even trying to reply to them.

I want to begin by paying tribute to the Post Office for a matter which might have passed by unnoticed. I want to say that the Department of Posts and Telecommunications deserves our tribute this year for the fact that it was not necessary to submit an additional appropriation to Parliament this year. Accurate budgeting and thorough planning have made this exceptional achievement possible. With a budget of R1,2 milliard over the past year, this is truly a praiseworthy achievement.

I should like to exchange a few ideas in regard to the telephone services on the Witwatersrand and in the PWV area in general. I want to say here and now that I have great appreciation for everything already achieved over the past decade. In his budget speech the hon. the Minister pointed out that it was expected that approximately 200 000 additional telephones would be provided in this financial year, which would bring the total to 2 656 000 telephones. The heavy demand for telephone services in the non-White urban areas in itself is already a major headache for the department. If one adds to that the economic upswing that is already being experienced and the still greater demand for telephone services created thereby, one may expect the waiting list to get even longer, and to approach the 100 000 mark. To me this is a major source of concern. In my part of the world, the East Rand—and this also applies to the whole PWV area—an economic upswing is visible. Major building activities are already in progress there and industrial growth, together with the higher fuel prices, is stimulating the demand for telephones. A businessman cannot do business without a good and effective telephone service. For a businessman, the telex and telephone service is indispensable. I therefore want to make yet another appeal for the Post Office, in its planning and advance estimates, to take due account of the demands that will be made shortly. According to the figures I have been able to obtain, there was a waiting list for 16 074 telephones on the Witwatersrand on 31 March 1979. At the end of this month the waiting list is expected to be in the region of 33 000. In other words, it will double.

If we bear in mind that tremendous demands can be set in this regard then I feel that I have reason to be concerned about the situation on the Witwatersrand. Accordingly I prefer to speak about “operation Witwatersrand” here and to express the hope that this “operation Witwatersrand” does not fall behind. As it is, there are already exchanges that are overloaded, and in new areas in particular there are already serious shortages. My earnest plea is that the Minister should take careful note of the problems and do everything possible to prevent the Witwatersrand from getting into the situation we had a decade ago. I say this, Sir, in spite of the wonderful work that has already been done; and I am not unaware of the fact that five new exchanges have been established, that 31 existing exchanges have been expanded, that four manual exchanges have been converted into automatic exchanges, providing altogether 32 610 extra lines. In spite of all this good work that has been done, I am concerned when I think about the upswing that is on its way and the shortages that could occur as a result.

In the second place I should very much like to make use of this opportunity to exchange a few ideas with regard to the staff situation. The Post Office can only maintain and repeat its achievements if it has an adequately motivated, well-trained staff. The disturbing aspect is the large number of officials who have resigned—a total of 8 987. This situation is unsatisfactory and disturbing. It is particularly with regard to the engineers and the technicians that I am very concerned, because major problems could arise in that sphere in the future. The dramatic developments in the field of telecommunications make heavy demands on our technical staff. I am very grateful for the steps in this regard announced in this budget. I shall not elaborate on this further, because I do not have the time. I want to congratulate the Post Office on the training programme that is available for the thorough training of its people. The Post Office sets everyone in this country an example worth following and I hope that the private sector will take cognizance of everything that the Post Office is doing to train its people properly. I make an earnest appeal to the private sector in particular to train their people themselves and see to it that they are trained, instead of poaching the Post Office’s trained staff. The same people that robbed the Post Office of its staff will be the first to suffer, and they will also be the first to complain when essential services are not provided.

Mr. Chairman, I want to put this in strong terms. As far as I am concerned it is a crime to poach staff if the body in question has made no contribution to the training of such staff. The Post Office engineers, engineering technicians, telecom electricians etc., and other staff, White and Black, are all highly trained staff who cannot be replaced overnight. Now, according to my information, 232 White technicians and 312 White telecom electricians resigned over the past year, in 1979. I therefore want to ask that this problem be investigated in depth so that firms that employ these technicians without training their own people themselves, may be obliged in one way or another to contribute to a fund to compensate for the damage done in this regard. According to my information it costs R5 400 per annum to train a technician, and it costs R4 500 per annum to train a telecom electrician. I wonder whether hon. members are aware of the fact that the Post Office offers a scheme in terms of which telecommunications technicians can be trained for private employers. This training is carried out at the Post Office College on a cost-recoverable basis. However, I have been informed that there has been a very poor reaction to this from the private sector and very limited use is being made of the facilities made available in this way.

Earlier today, the hon. member for Boksburg referred to the enormous factories that have been established, including those in his constituency. However, hon. members will be amazed if I tell them that the Philips Company have had as many as seven people; standard Telephones and Cables, two people; Siemens, three people; and Escom, seven people trained by way of this scheme. Therefore a total of 19 people have been trained by way of this scheme. I have only singled out a few employers who have these people in their service. There are several others who do not make use of these schemes. These people that are being trained at great expense by the Post Office are being poached by others and accordingly these services cannot be rendered. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the tempo of the debate has subsided noticeably. Now, I do not wish to spoil the atmosphere, but I think the hon. member for Sandton would forgive me if I were to make a brief reference to his contribution and his tirade against Afrikaner institutions in South Africa. He made me think that he believed that Pinocchio, too, was a member of the Broederbond. I want to give him the assurance that that is not the case. If he wants to ask me how I know this, I shall tell him that I am a great pal of Pinocchio’s.

The extensive role played by the SABC as a news medium and as a general provider of entertainment, is difficult to realize. Over the years the talking-box has become so much part and parcel of each household in South Africa, that it is being taken for granted instead of being shown the necessary appreciation and gratitude. For that reason I believe that each listener should consider for a moment the active contribution made by the SABC towards forming and promoting the culture of each population group in the Republic, particularly in the presentation of its many programmes, inter alia, the actuality programmes, comprising 13,9% of the total broadcasting period; news and news commentary programmes, comprising 8,3%; sport programmes, comprising 7,3%; religious programmes, comprising 5,3%; youth and children’s programmes, comprising 0,9%; agricultural programmes, comprising 1,9%; discussion programmes and documentaries, comprising 3,2%; literary and cultural programmes, comprising 2,6%; and drama programmes, comprising 6,3%. I think I may be so bold as to say thank you on behalf of the listeners of South Africa for the special services provided by the SABC.

Under the heading “Drama and Documentaries” on page 59 of the Annual Report of the SABC for 1979, I read the following—

†Apart from the selection of M. F. C. Roebuck’s play “A Requiem is Requested” for submission for the Prix Italia, she also received the award of the English Association, South African branch, in 1964 and the Olive Schreiner Award of the S.A. Akademie vir Wetenskap en Kuns in 1967. This is an achievement worthy of mention and an honour for South African English literature. The SABC annual report further mentions “Thunder Rock” by Robert Ardrey, “A Rhino for the Boardroom” by Douglas Livingstone, and “For King and Country” by John Wilson. Daily serials continued to enjoy enthusiastic following, serials like “Barry Lyndon” by Thackeray, “The Zimmerman Telegram” by Barbara W. Tuchman, etc. It is remarkable that of the 11 serials and plays mentioned in the annual report only two were written by South African authors.

In “Special Report” on the English service on 7 December 1979 the views of TV and radio critics from several newspapers were aired. One criticism was that the English service is entrenched in the English context. Some time ago a “phone-in” was held on a similar topic during which dissatisfaction with the TV material, particularly plays, was voiced. One wonders whether this phenomenon is the result of the non-existence of an established core of local English writers. If it is, should something drastic not be done to ensure the creation and maintenance of such a core?

I think there are difficulties facing the South African writer in English as far as radio work is concerned. I would like to comment on some of those difficulties. In the first place, the selection of material shows bias in favour of overseas writers as against local writers. It is estimated that the English service presents approximately 104 plays a year, of which probably not more than 3% are by South African writers. If this estimate is correct, the odds are against South African writers. A better balance should be maintained and if the imbalance is due to a lack of South African writers something should be done to stimulate their interest.

In the second place, the preparation of material shows bias in favour of the members of the staff of the SABC as against other writers. Fictional material is serialized on approximately 260 week-day evenings per year in the form of 50-minute programmes and on 52 Sunday evenings in 30-minute programmes. It is seldom that a serial, either original or adapted, is presented under the name of a non-staff member. Similarly, documentaries are commonly the work of staff members. It is relevant to inquire whether staff members prepare this work as part of their normal duties or whether they receive extra fees for such preparation. The latter being the case, I would suggest that the engagement of some non-staff South African writers will be of great value in encouraging their participation in the English service. There are also other difficulties that the South African writer in English experiences, but I do not have the time to go into them.

In conclusion, I would suggest the following in an effort to further the cause of the South African English writer. In the first place, I suggest that the practice should be immediately adopted of adding the author’s nationality to his name when a play is announced. In the second place, I suggest that the previously broadcast “Festival of Plays by South African Writers” be presented again as soon as possible, extended over, say, 20 programmes in ten weeks, if sufficient recordings are available. This would provide acknowledgment of the writers of the selected plays and be an encouragement for others who may not yet have made an attempt in this field.

Thirdly, I suggest that a panel of selectors be appointed to choose the material for transmission in respect of various categories before passing it to the drama department for production. It has been indicated that Capab productions will in future be chosen by a committee.

Finally, I also suggest that some form of legislation be considered to ensure the use of at least a minimum quantity of local works. Britain protected its film industry from being swamped by American infiltration through the use of exactly this method.

*I feel it has become imperative to deliver a plea in this House for the protection of the identity and of the continuation of the proficiency of the English South African writer.

Mr. Chairman, I trust that the hon. member for Swellendam will not take it amiss if I do not react to what he has said. Unfortunately I have only a few minutes at my disposal and I do not know how much of my time is going to be wasted on blue card stories again.

*In the first instance I want to apologize to the hon. the Minister about something I said earlier. During the Second Reading debate I confused him with the former Minister of National Education. However, the hon. the Minister cannot take it amiss of me for doing so. Since I have been a member of this House, there has been such a turnover as far as members of the Cabinet are concerned, that one has to consult one’s pocket book regularly to make sure that one is talking about the right man. However, I believe that I did in fact address my plea to the right person. I think it is certainly a matter for the hon. the Minister, and the department for which he is responsible. To support my case I should like to quote the words of the former Minister of National Education, so that the hon. the Minister may know that I do not stand alone when I put this request to rhim. On 20 May 1979, during the discussion of the National Education Vote, the then Minister said the following in this House (Hansard, Vol. 81, col. 7423)—

It was actually these words that I had in mind when I requested the hon. the Minister this afternoon to give attention to the matter. I hope that he will follow the matter up.

It is also a great pleasure for me to convey our thanks to the hon. the Minister on behalf of myself and also on behalf of the hon. member for Walmer, concerning his intention of visiting Port Elizabeth. I just want to add that we trust that he will bring the Postmaster-General with him. If the hon. the Minister warns us in time, we undertake to ensure that there will be a blue carpet for them. We should prefer not to use a red carpet. A red carpet would remind us too much of the PFP. Therefore we shall make it a blue carpet. [Interjections.]

Now I want to continue and again raise the matter of the Post Office in Port Elizabeth. I am convinced that the planning of the new Post Office has progressed quite far by this stage. However, I want to request the hon. the Minister to try to see to it that the problem with regard to the existing post office in Newton Park be avoided in future. That post office is situated in a very busy part of town. I have before me a newspaper cutting dated last Friday. It concerns the parking problems at that post office. The post office is bordered on the one side by Cape Road, a very busy road in which parking is totally prohibited during peak periods. A side road, Fifth Avenue, which also passes the post office, also creates problems in that parking is forbidden there between 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Anyone who ventures to stop there risks a fine of R20.

Is that also a blue ticket?

No, it is a pink ticket.

And a traffic officer in a blue jacket. [Interjections.]

The article mentions that it is true that there is parking behind the post office, and the officials explained that the parking was for official use. The new post office is going to be built, and I am aware that the local authorities, the municipality, got in touch with the department a number of years ago to ensure that in the planning of the new post office, some provision would be made for parking for members of the public. I say “some provision” advisedly. If my information is correct, the reply was that the post office was there to provide postal services and not to provide parking. Accordingly there was no inclination to make provision for parking on the premises themselves. When a post office is built in a newly developed residential area, one can hold the local authorities responsible for the provision of parking in the vicinity of the Post Office. However, when a new post office is built in a developed area, there must surely be co-operation from both sides, because even though the local authority wants to make provision for parking, the nature of the area is often such that they are simply unable to do so. If they were to do so now, there would perhaps have to be large-scale expropriation in the vicinity. I therefore have a request to make. Would it not be possible to realize, at an early stage in the planning of this post office, that some parking must be provided? The Post Office is the heart of any city. There are people who cannot park a quarter of a mile or a half mile away from the Post Office. For example, there are the elderly and other people for whom it is difficult for various reasons to get to a post office without transport. In some cases these people only have to go to the post office to get their post, or to buy a few stamps or to send a telegram. Therefore there is an urgent need for shortterm parking. If the hon. the Minister visits Port Elizabeth and we can look at the problem together with the hon. the Minister, we shall be able to show him the problems caused by parking at the present post office. The problem of parking outside is just as much of a problem as that relating to the post office itself. It is for that reason that I mention it at this early stage and I hope that attention will be given to the matter.

Mr. Chairman, it has struck me that the members of the NRP are very uneasy this evening. They made a tremendous fuss, became very emotional, and their blood pressure shot up. I was unable to understand why they were being so difficult this evening, until I went out and entered the reading room. There I read an article in The Argus speculating that the hon. member for East London North was going to join the official Opposition.

But he is a Prog.

That made me realize that there are only eight of the original ten little men left.

Hon. members!

Yes, I mean hon. members. They are falling off the wall one by one.

What clause is that?

Order!

That party calls itself the NRP. That stands for New Republic Party. Perhaps they should change their name to the Natal Republic Party, or perhaps they should call themselves the DRP, the Durban Republic Party, because after all, there are only Durban men sitting here.

There is also Mooi River.

It is true that the hon. member for Mooi River is still there, but he is going to move to the Cape one of these days. Therefore he, too, is almost out of it. [Interjections.] We know about this type of scare story that is told during elections, as well as the Broederbond story and the “boerehaat” stories, etc. They are only told when an election is on the way. It seems to me that the hon. members were being difficult this evening because they had lost another member and could lose yet other members. Therefore we understand their uneasiness.

I want to discuss the important function of the Post Office on the platteland. There are various aspects of the Post Office to be considered, viz. the buildings, the staff, the television, the radio and the telephone. As far as the buildings are concerned, the Post Office performs a very important function. Taking my own town as an example, I want to say that the Post Office there is right in the centre of town. It is situated in the main street, in the middle of the town. It was built in 1905, a small building in a small town. As the town grew, the post office also grew, with the result that it was extended and enlarged in 1923, 1931, 1948, 1960, and later, too, in order to keep pace with the development of this rural area As a result of this expansion, the telephone exchange developed in the same way. This has had the result that recently new automatic exchange buildings were constructed at a cost of R326 000. The new automatic exchange has a total of 4 300 lines. The new post office has just been completed at a cost of R805 000, and the hon. the Minister was good enough to agree to come and open the building for us. This will be a very big event for the community there. As the town has grown, the revenue of the post office has also grown until, over the past 12 months, it had a turnover of almost R1,5 million.

Allow me, too, to say a few words about the staff of the post office. In the rural areas they are very important people. In contrast to the situation in the city, on the platteland the postmaster and his staff are people with whom one has close contact and whom one knows personally. We on the platteland are very proud of these people. We feel that the Postmaster-General is right when he says that these are proud and motivated people. They participate in the life of the community and even take the lead. The postmasters of the various post offices in the region in particular are always willing to listen to complaints and we also find, for example, that they are willing to go out—I do not know at whose expense they do so—to listen to complaints, address Farmers’ Associations, etc. We appreciate that. The switch to open facilities for all races at the post office went off very smoothly at Vryheid and I want to congratulate the staff on its having gone off so smoothly. In the process the postmaster, together with his staff, dealt with the public in a very patient and friendly way in the course of rendering service. For example, the technical staff of the post office must cover long distances in all weather in a thinly populated area to keep the lines in order and maintain the telephones.

There are still a few manual exchanges left in my part of the world, and I want to pay tribute to the people concerned for the work they have done in the past and are still doing. We on the platteland realize how valuable they are. Reference was made this evening to automatic exchanges, which can switch automatically to where a person is going to be. My neighbour or I can be at any place and the manual exchange operator can say: “Listen, he is not at home now, but you will find him at such and such a number.” In case of illness, fire and death these people have rendered the community very unselfish and valued service.

As far as television is concerned, this wonderful means of communication is indispensable for us on the platteland. The previous speaker said that we were not all in the fortunate position of having television. However, there are people in my community who have installed expensive relay apparatus at their personal expense. We are very grateful for that. Almost everyone in the platteland is in possession of a radio, because it is a relatively cheap item. However, the most important and indispensable item for almost everyone on the platteland is still the telephone. We simply cannot get along without it. A telephone, particularly for people on remote farms, is indispensable and is an absolutely vital means of communication. It is therefore imperative that this means of communication be in operation at all times. If one lives in the city or in a town and one’s telephone is out of order, one is usually only a short distance from another telephone. One need only use one’s neighbour’s telephone or go to a public telephone which is usually just around the comer. However, if one is on the platteland and lives 30, 40, 50 or even 60 kilometres away from the next telephone and one’s telephone ceases to work, one is cut off from the rest of the community. Due to the fact that we have aerial telephone wires, it is often the case that if one’s telephone is out of order, one’s neighbour’s telephone and the other telephones served by the line are also out of order. In the times we are living in it is an urgent necessity that this channel of communication be kept open. The Act provides that branches of trees that obstruct or interfere with the telephone wires may be cut down or trimmed if the owner of the trees does not want to do it himself. The region of northern Natal where I live has a very high rainfall and many trees are planted. That is why we are always having the problem that the branches of the trees grow between the telephone wires. This has resulted in the wind blowing the branches against the wires, and this in turn causes … [Time expired.]

Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I congratulate the hon. the Minister, the Postmaster-General and the whole staff of the Post Office on the outstanding budget that has once again been put before this House. Before dealing with general matters relating to the Post Office, in the short time at my disposal I want to touch on two matters affecting my constituency because I believe that they need to be followed up urgently. In the first place, I want to refer to the new post office to be built at Heidelberg. I am grateful that very good progress is being made with the negotiations being conducted at a high level between senior officials of the Post Office and the Transvaal Provincial Administration. We know that the Transvaal Provincial Administration has for many years owned a piece of land at Heidelberg. It was formerly the land of the “public school”, and this land is to be used to accommodate the new post office and also a vehicle testing station for the Transvaal Provincial Administration. This matter is being investigated, and it is true that there is substantial difference of opinion among the people of Heidelberg as to which part of the land is to be used for the post office and which for the testing station. Representation in this regard have been submitted to me and to the MPC for my constituency in the Transvaal Provincial Council. Various bodies want the post office to be built on the high-lying part of the land because it is very close to the magistrate’s office, and also because it is situated close to Heidelberg’s shopping centre. Other bodies, however, would like to see the contrary. However, we know that the best decision will be taken. If the post office is built on the high-lying land, it will be far easier for pedestrians, particularly for pensioners, to reach it. In this regard I have in mind in particular pensioners of advanced age who may have difficulty walking.

In any event, we are grateful that a new post office is to be built, because the building containing the post office at Heidelberg at present is not the property of the Post Office. It is of course the post office, but the building is being rented. It would be a good thing if Heidelberg were to get a new post office. The present post office, as it stands, has become too small for greater Heidelberg. We are sincerely grateful that those negotiations are being conducted and we wish to express the hope and the confidence that this matter will be settled at some time, if at all possible, so that the planning may be continued with.

Another matter of great importance to us is the building of the new post office in Alra Park. Alra Park is in the Nigel area, and it is a Coloured town of high quality and one which is going to expand a great deal in the future. At present there is no post office in Alra Park, and as a result, I think, the post office at Nigel is under very heavy pressure. We have also had the very good news that the Postal administration is in fact going to open a post office in Alra Park, but at the moment there are no buildings. We know, too, that the Coloured Development Corporation is envisaging constructing such buildings shortly. When those buildings are constructed, the new post office will also be accommodated therein. I therefore appeal very earnestly to the Post Office to think in terms of bigger buildings and also bigger premises than may be being considered at present when considering that post office. Alra Park has a very high growth potential. It is expanding towards Balfour, and we know that if the expansions are as expected, then within a number of years there will probably be close to 20 000 people in that area. As the matter stands at present, on certain days of the week the Nigel post office is completely overloaded. I therefore ask, in all seriousness, that attention be given to this matter, and in fact that it should be expedited. Since Alra Park falls within the constituency of the hon. the Minister of Labour, I know that he will be very willing to support me.

Self-service post offices have come to stay. I am very grateful that the self-service post office in my constituency, namely Minnebron, is making so much progress. It has afforded a great deal of relief there. In the recent past, before it was there, people had to travel 10 to 12 km merely to fetch their post. Now the people are very happy; they get their boxes free. They only pay only for the keys. This is something which, in my opinion, should be given favourable consideration in the future, particularly in densely populated areas where the post is delivered from door to door by hand. In this regard, self-service post offices are a good solution. They not only make the delivery of post safer, but also serve a very important purpose. The Post Office has something here that ought to be very good for South Africa and the Post Office. At the moment we already have 27 such post offices, seven on the Witwatersrand, 11 in the rest of Transvaal, six in Natal, one in the Eastern Cape, one in the Northern Cape and one in the Free State. Another six are being planned, viz. two on the Witwatersrand and four in the rest of Transvaal. This is a very good sign and points to very important developments in the Transvaal and in the rest of the country. This concept of delivery is to the benefit of the department, in the sense that it is less labour-intensive.

We have also noted how people take pleasure in damaging public property, and we know, too, to what extent they do so. We are living in a time of terrorism. We shall be making a big mistake if we think that a vandal does not also display a certain form of terrorism, if one considers how they damage public property. We know that in the year ending 31 December 1979 they caused damage to post offices amounting to no less than R264 207. In 3 003 cases they removed equipment from the Post Office, and in 15 509 they caused damage. I believe that very vigorous steps should be taken against vandals who cause this kind of damage to public property. This kind of thing must be eradicated root and branch in this beautiful country of ours. For that reason I want to ask whether, if at all possible, consideration could not be given to the possibility of punishing people found guilty of such offences even more heavily than they are punished at the moment.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.