Mr. Chairman, it is my pleasure to welcome the new hon. Minister of National Education to his post formally for the first time, and at the same time, to our regret, to bid him farewell. It is a question of welcome and good-bye—or farewell! It is somewhat disturbing, if I might put it that way, to find repeated changes in the Ministry of National Education, and once again to have to see a Minister in whom, let me say in all modesty, we have great confidence, leaving the portfolio after only six months. We do, however, have sympathy with the hon. the Minister’s decision rather to administer the affairs of the Transvaal— and let me say, incidentally, that there are problems there, too—rather than to continue in the Ministry of National Education.

I do not think I am exaggerating at all when I say that over the years the Ministry of National Education has been shabbily treated by the Government as far as financial provision is concerned. In the past it was the cultural section of National Education that suffered most under the stringent provisions and prescriptions of the Treasury. To our great dismay, however, we have discovered recently that the teaching section of the Ministry of National Education is also very badly off. Indeed, we can understand that the hon. the Minister feels unhappy about the position in which the Department of National Education finds itself at the moment. We recently saw that the teaching profession was dealt a severe blow when no provision was made for it in the recent budget. It is a fact teachers had relied on promises and negotiations, on statements and decisions taken in the past. Without any notification to them, without, even, any consultation or explanation, no provision was made in the recent budget to give effect to those decisions and findings. Absolutely no provision was made in this regard.

The Minister himself, in fact—perhaps in a rash moment, if I might put it that way— intimated his dissatisfaction with what had occurred in regard to the budget and the teaching profession. The hon. the Minister had the following to say about this—

He said it was his function to act as spokesman for the people in the teaching profession, as, of course, befits an honourable and honest Minister of National Education. Moreover, the teachers’ expectations were justified in the light of the improvement in the country’s economy in general. Now the hon. the Minister has said there are two deficiencies in the budget of the hon. the Minister of Finance. Firstly, there was the failure to implement the promised movement—even a first step—towards the ideal scale for teachers. Secondly, there was the failure to make any mention of the position of universities. It is our view that the hon. the Minister had the fullest right, therefore, to say what he did.

To illustrate and motivate this, it is perhaps necessary to go back a little, because this matter has had a long history. It started in 1976, a few days after the former hon. Minister of National Education took up office as Minister of Plural Relations and Development. The date was 24 February 1976. When the teachers submitted a memorandum regarding salary and cost structures, which would establish a sounder basis for the teaching profession than the then existing basis, a basis which even at that time many people inside and outside the teaching profession did not feel was proper and sound.

Those proposals of February 1976 were apparently accepted by the hon. the Minister and the Cabinet, because on 26 April 1976 the hon. the Prime Minister announced a 10% increase in the salaries of teachers. At the same time he said the following—

I stress the words “benewens en ter aanvulling”—

A Cabinet committee was then appointed to frame a new structure, which was referred to as the “ideal structure”. All those concerned served on it, and were consulted about the matter. These included the Public Service Commission, the Department of National Education itself, the provinces, the education departments of the non-White population groups and the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations.

The recommendations of these organizations were embodied in a joint report of the Public Service Commission and the Federal Council which was submitted to the Cabinet. Through this a new dispensation for the teaching profession was envisaged. The teaching profession had to be developed as a profession in the interests of the country. On 12 November 1976, the previous hon. Minister of National Education gave the executive committee of the federal council confidential information in regard to this so-called ideal structure, as he had accepted it, and that council accepted those proposals for a new ideal structure. The understanding was, however, that the scheme would be submitted to the Cabinet for approval. That was apparently done. The Minister made an announcement on 30 November 1976, and I quote—

Note these words—

This does not relate to the question of salary increases, but to a new dispensation. The hon. the Minister went on to say that implementation of the new salary and post structures could not be considered at once in view of the prevailing economic situation. At that stage not one word was said to teaching bodies to the effect that anything other than the so-called ideal structure was embodied in the Government’s decision. The Government gave teachers the impression that when the economy had improved to the extent that a general increase could be granted to all Government employees, the teachers’ new structure and the salary adjustments it entailed, would be implemented.

Because of economic circumstances there was no change in 1977, and in December 1977 further discussions took place. The then Minister of National Education informed the federal council that a salary increase of 5% would come into effect on 1 January 1978. The teachers regarded this as a purely transitional phase, and never regarded it as anything more than merely temporary relief. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon. member the opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for the opportunity.

After lengthy negotiations, the minimum new structure, with an increase of approximately 8%, was accepted, but with a strict proviso, and that proviso was formulated as follows—

The increase of 8% then became effective in January 1978, with no proportional increase and improvement in all scales for the teaching profession. The teachers were under the impression, and nobody found it necessary or desirable to disillusion them, that in this year’s budget the shortcomings would be rectified so as to put the ideal structure into effect Accordingly there were great expectations of what would happen on 1 April this year. But nothing came of it, and the outcry of disappointment and dissatisfaction which followed is understandable. The Transvaal Teachers’ Association—the largest of its kind in South Africa—under the chairmanship of a very calm and unexcitable person, Prof. Terblanche, said—

The Government’s bona fides were seriously questioned, and it was frankly asked how this action accorded with honest and efficient administration of the country. This reaction was unanimous on the part of all the institutions as well as the newspapers of the NP. In this regard I refer to Die Vaderland, that said that they believed the time was ripe for the Government to give serious attention to the matter. Die Transvaler offered the following advice to the Government—

In other words, the first steps should come from them. The Government, as usual, paid absolutely no heed to this well-meant and sound advice. The hon. the Prime Minister called the hon. the Minister of National Education to Cape Town and apparently hauled him over the coals, because shortly afterwards the hon. the Minister of National Education came up with a conciliatory and half-apologetic explanation of his words. As usual, there were then discussions and recommendations as to what the next step should be, and the teaching profession proposed that an impartial commission of inquiry be appointed to investigate the matter and submit the real facts. The point of dispute, of course, is not whether there should in fact be salary increases. The real question is whether there has been a breach of faith on the part of the authorities. I want to read to hon. members what was said by one of the Government’s confidants in the field of education, Prof. Gerrit Viljoen. I quote—

We on our side kept dead quiet, because had the PFP said anything at all, what they said would immediately have been seized upon by such eloquent hon. members as the hon. member for Virginia and the hon. member for Hercules. It would have been said that the Opposition were inciting and stirring up the teachers. [Interjections.] That is why we kept quite quiet. I must now make haste, as my time has almost expired. But the matter went further. The hon. the Prime Minister refused to appoint a commission of inquiry. At the same time he referred to the teachers in the most high and mighty terms. He called them wrong-minded and insensitive to the true interests of the country. He also said they were only intent on the promotion of their own interests. Then he came up with the usual announcement that the Government had to show who was boss in South Africa. We simply cannot accept that the authorities should speak in this way about a major group of key workers. Our advice to the Government, therefore, is to agree to the appointment of a commission of inquiry. It could be a one-man commission, under the chairmanship of Prof. Viljoen, for example, in whom the Government ought to have the fullest confidence. Then the facts on both sides can be ascertained within a couple of weeks, and its conclusions published. The alternative for the Government is to make some secret arrangement. The Government’s aim is to have a joint document drawn up by the teachers and the Government which will contain certain facts and will not be made public because it would supposedly embarrass the teachers. The document would then be sent confidentially to the thousands of teachers in South Africa. One can of course foresee what will happen. That document will not remain confidential. It will be leaked out, particularly in the Government newspapers.

Then you should be grateful, surely.

Bit by bit the information—wrong, right or half-right—will be published. The result will be that we shall have even greater misery and confusion than we have at this stage.

That is hardly possible.

The only solution is to go ahead immediately with the teachers’ proposal to have an impartial commission of inquiry.

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to say too much in reply to what the hon. member for Johannesburg North has said. I do want to say, though, that there is a committee that is concerned with this matter, a committee consisting of representatives of the department, the Public Service Commission and the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations of South Africa. While those negotiations are in progress, I do not know if it is necessary to say much about this matter.

Just give them a rise.

The hon. member for Johannesburg North said quite rightly that they had made no statements to the newspapers, etc. However, they were waiting for a time when they could put themselves forward as champions of the teachers. I just want to tell that hon. member, though, that if there is one group of people which takes an interest in our teachers, it is surely the hon. members of the NP.

Deeds, not words.

Certain things are being imputed to the hon. the Prime Minister. It is alleged that he said certain things about the teachers. But I do not think the hon. member can deduce that this was said about the teachers. It was said about a mentality amongst certain officials who regard themselves as the alpha and omega. The teachers are not the only people who are supposed to have done this.

Did you read Die Burger?

I just want to say that it is a great pity that this matter was discussed in public. As far as the word “betrayed” (verraai) is concerned, I want to say that if that word was in fact used—and I doubt it; I do not know if the Press reported it correctly—it should never have been used. Educationally it is totally wrong to set the example that when one is dissatisfied about a matter, one accuses one’s Government of betrayal.

We have not yet had occasion to bid farewell to Dr. Koornhof as Minister of National Education. We should like to do so now. We want to thank him most sincerely for the co-operation he has always shown us and for the enthusiasm he displayed when he was connected with the department. We wish him every success and everything of the best with his new task in his capacity as Minister of Plural Relations and Development I think that in that capacity, too, he will display the necessary enthusiasm.

We also want to say to the present hon. Minister of National Education, Mr. Cruywagen, that we are grateful and proud that he was the choice of the hon. Prime Minister to become the first citizen of Transvaal. We know him as a dedicated teaching man. We know him as a person who will soon settle in there. We know him as a person who will strive to make a great success of his new post. We also feel that as far as education is concerned, he will play his part in his new post, too, in the promotion and development of education as a whole.

Having thanked and congratulated the hon. the Minister, it is also my privilege to congratulate the other hon. members who have been appointed Administrators—and these were good appointments—and who will thus also be connected with education. Firstly, there is the Deputy Speaker of the Assembly, Dr. Van der Merwe, who has been appointed Administrator of the Orange Free State. If there are days when things go wrong for him there, I believe that all he will have to do is shout “Vrystaat” and everything will come right As far as the hon. member for Eshowe, Mr. Botha, is concerned, our good wishes accompany him to Natal, where he, too, will be connected with education.

There was a time when culture and education fell under different departments. There was a time when culture was without education and education without culture. Today they both fall under the Department of National Education. I think one might say that culture is just as educational as education itself. It is therefore important for us that both these aspects should now be combined, because education should be rooted in culture.

This brings me to Stellenbosch, which today celebrates its 300th anniversary. This is an old cultural town, an educational town, a town which has done much in regard to culture and education in our country. We want to congratulate Stellenbosch on its 300 years of existence. We hope that the tercentenary committee will have much success with their further celebrations this year. May they succeed in their aim of putting Stellenbosch even more firmly on the map.

The old castle also celebrated its 300th anniversary this year, and a number of receptions have been held to commemorate this event May the old castle continue in future to serve as the symbol of hope, faith and strength.

Then, too, the FAK was established 50 years ago this year. The FAK has done much to expand and promote the culture of the Afrikaner. I must point out that the work which the FAK does is important because we are still subject to powerful influences from abroad, while the world is becoming smaller and smaller. This reminds me of a letter which appeared in Die Huisgenoot, in which a father wrote that at one time his two sons regularly played rugby with him, but recently they have not wanted to play rugby with him because they are interested in soccer.

Education and training must be rooted in culture. Culture provides encouragement. It acts as an incentive to the will to exist, to be and to remain what one is. The preservation of one’s heritage is a noble task because it keeps the past alive for the sake of the future. To support this I want to pay a word of tribute to Mrs. Kotie Roodt-Coetzee. It would not be out of place for me to say a few things about her.

She was a Western Transvaler by birth. She was born on the farm Rooiwal in the Lichtenburg district She spent her childhood and formative years in the Western Transvaal. After a quarter of a century of dedication, a period during which she gave herself heart and soul to culture, she resigned from the service of the National Cultural History and Open Air Museum on 31 December 1978. For 13 years she carried out her work as director in an exemplary manner and left her distinctive stamp on the various museums of which she was the executive head. These museums do not only contain a collection of a mass of objects which are displayed in an orderly way, but have the primary object and function of education. Their educational role is of immeasurable worth for our nation and even for visitors from abroad. By her thoughts, actions and service Kotie Roodt-Coetzee enriched the Afrikaner nation with an immortal legacy. She has immortalized her name through patience, courage and perseverance in the annals of the cultural history of the Afrikaner. In 1977 she was decorated for the 40 years … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I merely rise to afford the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In 1977 she was awarded a medal by the S.A. Akademie vir Wetenskap en Kuns for the 40 years in which she devoted her energies to cultural consciousness and promotion of culture. Quite rightly, too, the museum memo of November 1978—volume 6, No. 3—was dedicated to her and devoted to her in its entirety. In the hands of dedicated cultural people like this the past does in fact have a future, because the nation with a past is the nation with a future.

Members of study groups on National Education of three of the political parties had the honour of being shown the various facets, projects and branches of the department in Pretoria. We want to say thank you to the Secretary, Dr. Van Wyk, as well as his officials, for the very enlightening tour which we undertook. We were also entertained to genuine “boere” food at the Pioneers open air museum, a meal which we shall certainly not soon forget.

This brings me to the question of teaching and the future. I want to point out the importance and necessity of co-operation and liaison between educational institutions and employers. I read the following in the annual report of the National Productivity Institute for 1977-’78—

I completely associate myself with this. Now the question arises: How does one increase labour productivity? The reply is quite simple, although its implementation is not always so simple. Vocationally-oriented education—training the right person for the right post—is of course the answer, that is, by offering differentiated education from primary school level right through to the tertiary level and by channelling pupils and students to suitable and appropriate training. That is why liaison and co-operation is necessary between teaching institutions and employers by setting up advisory committees to correlate supply and demand.

The knowledge explosion is assuming vast proportions and if regard is had to the fact that the knowledge explosion doubled between the years 1 A.D. and 1750, and doubled again between 1750 and 1950, and again between 1950 and 1960, and then again between 1960 and 1968, one sees that the tempo is increasing all the time. When one thinks of the mass of study material which a child has to absorb from his initial year to the end of his secondary education, and particularly when regard is had to the fact that over the past 30 years knowledge has virtually trebled, one realizes that serious challenges are being set to the whole population and it is becoming a task requiring a joint effort and responsibility on the part of all. In the nature of things it must obviously exercise an influence on the advancement of pupils and students. It must also of necessity influence the whole spectrum of education and all it entails. New challenges call for new approaches in education wherever new situations arise. Adjustments must constantly be made to keep abreast of the requirements and demands of education and society, together with full recognition of the aptitude, the interest and capabilities of pupils and students.

Then, too, there is the changing world in all spheres of life, and especially in the field of the accelerating technological development which must be taken into account Human capital must therefore be developed to its maximum potential, as the most important resource for the production of goods and the provision of services to keep abreast of demand. Further there is the fact that a minimum of 4% of a population must be in leadership positions to keep the national economy running smoothly. This makes the matter even more difficult and complicated. It calls for the maximum co-operation and liaison between employer and the educational institutions. The whole economy should be involved in the process of manpower development for greater manpower utilization.

South Africa is in a unique situation as far as its leadership corps is concerned, because women have still not attained their rightful place in the economic activities of the country, and because a population of approximately 4 million must in the main carry a total population of approximately 25 million. That, briefly, is the scope of the challenge.

As far as manpower development is concerned, careful attention must be given in various ways to ensuring that liaison and cooperation will occur to an increasing extent. The complexity of the situation calls for further expansion and development of differentiated education. Education is dynamic and therefore adjustments can be made, but in essence, education is aimed at the future, and planning, co-operation and liaison are accordingly of the utmost importance.

Because education as a process of preparation of people for the future is expensive, we cannot afford to push incompetent people onto the labour market. It will therefore always be necessary for teaching staff to continue to undergo training and for there to be continuous liaison among the various educational and training institutions. The teaching staff should be trained as extensively and as effectively as possible. Further education will have to be given constant consideration.

I am grateful to be able to say that both technical colleges and technikons in particular, can be expanded in their own field. I like to quote the striking motto of the Pretoria technikon which is very true and very inspiring: “Voorspoed deur vaardigheid.” That expertise can only be developed and expanded through human material, when people are channelled to the correct educational institutions.

The development of our manpower must be a national movement in which everybody participates. Liaison and co-operation among colleges, the technikons and the universities as well as the private sector is of the utmost importance to ensure an effective and sound economy. Much is already being done in connection with liaison, research and cooperation, but a lot more remains to be done.

I have before me the ninth annual report of the Human Sciences Research Council and I think it would be well for hon. members to read the report in conjunction with the very good and outstanding report we have received from the Department of National Education. I have read through the publications concerned and find that phenomenal progress has been made in the field of promotion of culture in general and the field of education in particular. If I might express criticism of the report—I think one should express criticism from time to time so that there can be evidence of interest—I want to point out that perhaps too little attention is paid to the question of technical training. I should have liked to see more about technical training in the report, to be able to determine what progress there has been made and what can be done in this connection. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Hercules raised certain aspects in connection with education, and I believe the hon. the Minister will give him the necessary replies.

I, too, should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on the great honour which has befallen him. In the short time that I have been in the House, I have, of course, seen quite a number of Ministers of National Education come and go. I must say, however, that I was of the opinion that if the hon. the Minister had been afforded the opportunity of remaining in office for a long time, he could have developed into a good Minister of National Education.

But he has been that right from the beginning.

Our best wishes for the future accompany him.

†The field of national education is very wide and I think it is impossible to do justice to all the department’s activities in a short debate of this nature. A lot of things will obviously be left unsaid. There is, however, something which all of us should say and that is a sincere thank you to those members of the staff who were involved in the arrangements for members of Parliament to visit Pretoria earlier this year. I think it was a most informative tour and we appreciated it tremendously.

I have warned the Cabinet in good time that if increases for teachers are not included in the planning for increased salaries for other public sectors, it will lead to bitter dissatisfaction in the teaching profession.

These are, of course, the words of the hon. the Minister himself. These are important words. They clearly indicate that the hon. the Minister is personally aware of the seriousness of the situation. It is not the hon. the Minister though who let the teachers down. It is important to note that teachers regard this whole incident as a breach of faith by the Government. We can argue about whether it is indeed so or not. However, teachers regard it as such. They regard it as a breach of faith committed by an informed Cabinet. The Cabinet was not uninformed about this whole issue.

*Of course, one can also refer to what the hon. the Prime Minister said. His attitude is very apparent from newspaper reports on the matter. For example, in Die Transvaler it was said that he, too, had entered the fray. The headlines of the relative report read: “P.W. waarsku onderwysers, Regering laat horn nie voorskryf nie.” However, I shall have more to say about this at a later stage.

†Parliament should take note of the fact that the chairman of the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations issued a statement, on 28 March this year, in which they said that the present Government would have to acknowledge the fact that it was guilty of a serious breach of faith if the present decision in connection with the salaries of teachers was upheld. Also in the same statement they said—

Then the statement comes to what, I believe, is the crux of the whole matter. I quote further—

These are the exact words used. The first lesson the Government should learn is never to raise hopes too high. Further, the Government should learn that one can also be too diplomatic. One should never be ambiguous in one’s dealings with people. All the statements can be found in the background notes provided to us by the federal council, notes issued on the whole question of salary structures. It appears to me that the Government is either guilty of a breach of faith or of deliberately making promises merely to appease the people for a short while. There is no doubt in my mind that the so-called ideal salary structure, which was shown to the executive of the Federal Council on 12 November 1976, was indeed the one on which the then Minister of National Education based his statement of 30 November 1976, and about which the promise was made that it would be put into operation as soon as the economic situation in South Africa had improved.

Looking at this whole affair in retrospect, the beginning of what is now regarded by teachers as a breach of faith, came in December 1977, when the federal council was faced with a choice of either a 5% general increase or the putting into operation, not of the so-called ideal structure, but of a minimum structure which was to be put into operation on 1 January 1978. By accepting—and of course, with strong reservations—the minimum structure, the federal council did, as they claim, exercise self-restraint I submit that the teaching profession should be commended for exercising that self-restraint.

The minimum structure brought about an increase of approximately 8%. However, about 27% of teachers still received an increase of 5% only. I know that these figures were queried subsequently. However, the federal council also issued a statement in which they said that their deductions were based on official figures supplied to them by the Department of National Education. Therefore we should not talk about the tremendous improvements in salaries given to teachers in December 1978. Of course, there were remarkable improvements in certain sections of the profession. The overall increase, however, was still not more than 8%.

I must say that I am aware of certain anomalies that would have occurred, particularly in the C grade, if the ideal structure had been put into operation. There anomalies would have existed between the top scale and the bottom scale. However, anomalies also exist in the present structure.

The previous Minister of National Education must accept the responsibility for a lot of what has happened. He must especially accept the responsibility for raising expectations too high. One should realize that one cannot continue saying day in and day out that teaching is such a wonderful profession and then ending up by treating it exactly the same as the other professions, or even worse. Then one is of course looking for trouble. It is nice words, but if that is the impression you give, you must also accept the consequences. I believe that the time has elapsed, long ago, for a specific inquiry into the situation of the teachers in the present-day circumstances. There should be a committee, consisting not only of departmental people and teachers, but also of members of the industry, commerce and agriculture.

We cannot have a state of affairs where teachers always have to resort to public action and public debate in order to bring about improvements. Every time this happens, it does the profession irreparable harm. If one follows the history through the 1960s and 1970s, the situation is unfortunately so that every time there was a major improvement it was preceded by concerted public action.

*Now the hon. the Prime Minister is accusing the teachers—as was remarked quite correctly by the hon. member for Johannesburg North—of …

[Inaudible.]

Has the hon. member read what is said here?

Did Die Burger lie?

Then the hon. the Prime Minister should not try to speak in riddles. [Interjections.] Then he must be outspoken and say who all these people in the Public Service are who are now all of a sudden …

Then you must not speak in riddles either.

Order!

Let us read what the hon. the Prime Minister said. He said—

†It is not like Madam Rose talking about the future. He is talking about the situation today.

*Where is there another conflict, apart from the one with the teachers? Is there another conflict? Do we know of another conflict? If there another profession which is being treated like the teaching profession at this stage? [Interjections.] It was a covert threat Die Transvaler says “P.W. waarsku onderwysers”. But the Transvalers do not believe it; after all, they no longer believe in their own newspapers. [Interjections.] The other newspapers, too, are beginning to tell the truth. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it was to be expected that the official Opposition and the NRP would seize upon this matter of salaries today. However, I concede the hon. members for Durban Central and Johannesburg North the opportunity to discuss this. That is their right as hon. members of the Opposition. But I want to tell them that if they really do have the interests and the welfare of teaching at heart, they should in the first place acquaint themselves fully with the facts. In the second place they should choose a venue where they could really try to secure benefits for education. I am sorry that I now have to tell the hon. members for Johannesburg-North and Durban Central that they tried to pose here as champions of the teachers. I give them credit for that. They are also trying, though, to make politics of this matter. [Interjections.] That is absolutely clear. What are these people trying to do?

The hon. member for Johannesburg North made a lot of generalizations about this, that and the other. If the hon. member had been fully acquainted with the chronological development of this whole affair since 1975, he would not have fallen into the pitfalls he fell into today. At the end of his speech the hon. member again spoke in support of a commission of inquiry. However, he committed to mention that in the absence of Prof. Terblanche, chairman of the federal council and of the Transvaal Teachers’ Union, Prof. Maree had the highest praise for the gesture of the hon. the Prime Minister and the Government to discuss the matter with them. Prof. Maree announced through the newspapers that they had the greatest appreciation for this and that that informative document would now be published, and that in the meantime they had relinquished the idea of a select committee or a commission of inquiry.

The hon. member for Durban Central adopted precisely the same tactics as the hon. member for Johannesburg-North by asking for a commission of inquiry to investigate education consisting of representatives of various organizations. I can tell the hon. members that they are not going to impress anybody in this way. The teachers are aware that the Government has always been sympathetic to their problems. We can indicate this has been the case time and time again in the past. I shall not allow myself to be distracted any further by the hon. members; I shall put my viewpoint in regard to salaries in the course of my discussion.

Firstly I want to state that one can never pay the lecturer or the teacher sufficiently for the work he does. It is quite obvious that the teacher is the moulder of the leader of tomorrow; he is the creator of the thought patterns of the next generation. The teacher is the interpreter of the nation’s outlook on life and the world. He is also the guardian of the spiritual and cultural heritage, of the traditions of his nation. If that is the case, it is also true that one can never really evaluate the worth of these people and pay them accordingly. In fact, the communists themselves teach that the teaching profession is the most powerful organ in the formative process of the thinking processes of a nation.

It is, however, also indisputable that one should never play off the importance of the various professions against one another at any given time. One cannot compare them with one another. Nor is it the function of any bystander, either individual or as an organized group, to determine what the priorities are at any given stage. It is the function of the State which has all the information available at that stage without one profession being played off against another. Having said this I am not inferring that the State does not have a very great responsibility to education, especially in the times in which we are living.

A happy teaching corps consisting of the best men and women the nation has to offer—not only the best in regard to intellectual capacity but also in respect of spiritual values—is of course an absolute need and requirement in the education of a nation. Circumstances within the profession must be of such a nature that it attracts the best manpower. But if the Government has a responsibility to education, it is equally true that in the same measure the profession also has a special responsibility. Not only the individual teacher, but organized associations must bear this responsibility honourably.

I maintain that we must jealously guard the reciprocal trust, respect, regard and understanding that exists between the State and education. Both of them, in fact, have to ensure the survival and future existence of the nation; the State mainly in the physical sphere while education makes its contribution on the ideological level. In the present problematical situation it is necessary that the bona fides of the parties concerned should be accepted.

I think it is very clear that education, on the basis of statements made since 1976, has accepted that the education profession, as far as salaries are concerned, should as a whole be singled out and placed in a more favourable position than the remainder of the government sector. This explains the disappointment experienced by this group at not being included in the increases granted to public servants as from 1 April this year. I can fully appreciate that disappointment I also appreciate the fact that these people might have had certain expectations, but in the same breath let me say that it is a pity that statements have been made in which words such as “betrayal” (verraad) and “breach of faith” (troubreuk) were used, and in addition, allegations that teachers were dealt an insulting slap in the face and that to expect further loyalty and appreciation from the teachers was asking too much. That is not the language of the teachers I know. I accept that there was disappointment, but I am sorry that groups and people were, in this upsurge of emotion, driven to use those words. If misunderstandings between the Government and the teaching corps do in fact exist in regard to this matter, they must be cleared up as soon as possible, and the only way to do this is by way of negotiation. It is no use trying to make political capital in this House or making various statements to the Press about the matter. This question must be openly discussed round a conference table in a specific, acknowledged fashion.

Behind closed doors.

The hon. the Prime Minister has already shown his sympathetic approach by receiving a deputation from the Federal Council and agreeing to the appointment of a committee, representative of the Public Service Commission, the Department of National Education and the organized teaching profession, to draw up an informative document covering the whole matter and circulate it confidentially to the teaching corps. What more do people want?

The Prime Minister of the country is prepared to receive the executive body of such a group and to listen to the objections and disappointment of these people, and he then states personally that he is prepared to draw up an informative document so that there will be peace and tranquillity within the teaching profession. This can only happen if a government, and in particular its Prime Minister, appreciates the interests of teachers and the seriousness and importance of their task. It is very clear that organized education—even though hon. members are trying to prove the opposite here—has respect, high praise and gratitude for the attitude of the hon. the Prime Minister, and especially for the attitude of the hon. the Minister of National Education.

Order! I am sorry, the hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I merely rise to afford the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech.

My thanks to that hon. member.

*The organized teaching profession is also very grateful and has appreciation for the fact that the hon. the Minister has tried with intense interest and purpose to do his best for education. I want to finalize this matter by saying that discussion must continue. It must not lead to the development of a confidence gap, and if a confidence gap already exists, it must be eliminated. But methods must not be used which will be harmful to the Government or education. I want to issue the warning that a tiger once let loose is not so easily tamed. The Government and education are too faithful compatriots—the Opposition should know this—in their striving for what is best for the country and the nation to permit the luxury of mistrust and a confidence gap.

I should like to deal with a few matters on which attention has been focussed in recent weeks, once again via the Press. I am referring to the requests addressed to universities by students and to the related problems. I should like to try briefly to state a few well known policies of this side of the House, and because of the time factor, I shall merely state them without elaborating on them any further. The first is that education forms a unity; from the pre-primary level up to the level of tertiary education.

The second important aspect is that education is part of the nation. That is why education alone can convey the nation’s philosophy of life and outlook on the world, and it must also disseminate culture. I could quote what various educationists have said in this regard, but I want to leave it there, except perhaps to refer to what headman Mopeli of Qwa-Qwa claims in regard to the orientation of culture to education—

The South African has a Christian national approach to and outlook on life and the world. Accordingly education must also have a Christian and national character. The school is the extension of the home and because of this the same atmosphere must prevail within the school as prevails within the home. There can therefore be no talk of school integration. What is also important is that in my view the school may never be misused to bring about forced contact between national groups. No matter how sacred the development of sound human relations might be—and this is sacred and important—the school may not be misused to establish forced contact, because forced contact can only create friction, misunderstanding, humiliation and discrimination.

The same argument applies in respect of tertiary education. When students bargain for certain privileges it is necessary for them to remember the stated findings and guidelines. This policy of the Government is founded on a universally acknowledged educational principle. When one reads the Van Wyk de Vries report, one sees that it expresses a very definite opinion in regard to the nature of the university and indicates that the nature of the university is integrated with society, the community and the State. When discussing the functions of the university, it says that, inter alia, this entails educating and moulding the student, and also making available to him facets of culture and a philosophy of life and an outlook on the world, due regard being had to those bonds of life united within him, to cultivate in him social standards of good citizenship. [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, the lights have just gone out, and I want to say, now that the lights are on again, I hope I shall also be able to bring some light to the minds of members of the Opposition.

Prof. Thom, former rector of the University of Stellenbosch, also expressed a very clear opinion in regard to the national ties of a university. He said, inter alia, that it was the task of the university to retain the confidence of the community, and in particular the community it served, through its national ties. This means that the university is indissolubly tied to the nation, and also in respect of the nation’s philosophy. Further, Prof. Thom also said that if we wanted true national ties in our universities, we would obviously not only think of the mind, but also of the heart and the character.

If the Government permits members of other colour groups to study at White universities, it is not a deviation from principles and policy, but simply because the physical amenities are not available at the separate national universities in the transitional stage to the ideal of equal separate universities. It is important that university authorities and the students should realize that certain matters are never negotiable. The Government does not gamble with the nation’s identity, viz. his God-given uniqueness.

The Government is not prepared to gamble with a nation’s right of existence and even less with its right to govern itself. Accordingly the Government does not negotiate in regard to mixed residential areas, school integration or an integrated Parliament Students, especially some White students at the universities, must realize that the presence of students of other colour groups on the campus does not mean that they form an unqualified section of the student community. They are these basically to follow a study course which they cannot obtain at their own ethnic university. The accent is thus on the study and not the participation in social and sporting activities. Of course, this is a sensitive matter. We do not want first class and second class students either, but we must never forget the motivation behind the admission and that is for study in a certain direction.

The Government has a tremendous responsibility in this connection. If students of other colours are admitted and the councils of the universities decide that they can have free and full participation in student life, with the exception of communal residential areas and dancing together, the results of this must also be evaluated by the Government Of course, the admission of students of other colours in this transitional stage is justified, but we must not allow these students to be lost as future leaders of their own nations, and still less that the future White leaders in the process become strangers to their own essential characteristics. Conditions for admission must therefore be laid down which will safeguard the students against estrangement from their own cultural heritage and national customs. [Interjections.] It would be better if the hon. member would confine himself to dipping his animals.

In conclusion I want to make an urgent appeal to the hon. the Minister, in the interests of all population groups and in accordance with the Government’s policy and the ideal we strive for, to urgently investigate the admission of students of other colours to universities and to lay down definite guidelines. I know that there will be some people who will ask immediately what will happen to the autonomy of the university, but the autonomy of a university is a qualified autonomy. The autonomy of a university does not give people carte blanche to do as they please within the confines of that university. The autonomy of a university is also governed by the contribution the State has to make to the functioning of that university.

Order! The hon. member’s time has expired. I have already allowed him a bit of injury time.

Mr. Chairman, the very first thing I should like to do, is to congratulate the SABC Staff Association on the telegram it sent yesterday to the hon. the Prime Minister in connection with the Advocate-General Bill. I think this was a particularly courageous act because all these people are in the full-time employ of the SABC. I believe it shows the genuine concern of people, even those in the employ of a State-financed corporation, about what this Bill is doing. I should like the Director-General to convey the congratulations of this side of the House to his staff association on their courageous stand.

Secondly I should like to say hello and good-bye to the hon. the Minister. We have not noticed him as being very active in this field and we regret that he will now not be able to become the idol of television as he will not be the Minister in this portfolio much longer. However, we wish him a very fruitful period of office in the Transvaal. I am sure that he will do well in that new post.

Early this session I received a letter from an Indian South African who brought to my attention a state of affairs which I think bears possible investigation and even action. After receiving this letter and after sending a copy of the letter to the hon. the Minister, I made a few inquiries myself. I established that the total number of hours of radio broadcasting emanating from all the radio services, both commercial and non-commercial, was approximately 901 hours per week. Of these 901 hours the total amount of time allowed to programmes of special interest to Indians is two hours, or approximately 17 minutes per day, and this on only one programme, namely the English programme. I do not want to argue this case at length, but this minuscule allocation of time does seem to me to be unfair. I should like the hon. the Minister to look into three aspects of this problem. Firstly, he should see whether the total time which is allocated to programmes of interest to Indians cannot be meaningfully increased; secondly, whether any increase decided upon cannot be shared by some of the other radio programmes or radio services and, thirdly, once an increase is decided upon, whether something cannot be done to widen the variety and interest value of the programmes themselves.

Another facet of this problem relates to television programmes. In this medium no time whatsoever is devoted to programmes of special interest to Indian viewers. I know that it is virtually impossible to cater for the several communities constituting the South African spectrum each in his own language and in his own idiom, but I do say that the needs of the Indian viewers are being neglected. A television service for Black viewers, I am told, is on the way. The suggestion has been made to me by several Indian persons with whom I have discussed the matter to screen an Indian film on television at least once per month. If the hon. the Minister is reluctant to sacrifice any existing viewing time, the people who have discussed this matter with me would be more than happy if such films were broadcast outside of the existing schedule, say at 4 p.m. on a Sunday afternoon. By going a step further and providing English or Afrikaans sub-titles, who knows, the interest in such monthly films might in fact widen.

While on the subject of time allowed to television broadcasts, why is it that the SABC assumes that all South Africans go to bed to sleep, or become comatose and moribund at the stroke of 10.30 p.m.? That is, without fail, the closing time for television. I have no objection, and I do not think any viewer has any, to the new 5.30 p.m. starting time, but we sorely miss the late-night news bulletin, no matter how biased it may be. An extra hour of television per day I believe will not take much doing and in a very short time will certainly increase the revenue of the SABC. Therefore I think serious consideration should be given to increasing from five to six hours the time allowed per day. If the hon. the Minister is against this, I honestly think he should stand up and give us very cogent reasons why. Adult South Africans will not, and they should not if they indeed do, turn into pumpkins at the stroke of 10.30 p.m. if they are watching a television show.

The third point that I should like to make relates to the enormous sums of public money which are being thrown away on badly-needed advertising time. One cannot switch on a radio or television set in South Africa without being confronted and assailed by plugs for the magazine Family Radio and TV, which is, after all, produced by private enterprise as a profit venture. Using the existing advertising rates, I calculate that any other organization would have to pay some R40 000 per week, and perhaps more, or, if one takes it across the board through the year, approximately R2 million per year, to receive the same exposure that Family Radio and TV receives on radio and television.

It is indecent.

The hon. member say it is indecent. I agree with him entirely. The assured television coverage is the only reason why advertisers use this magazine at all. What is worse: This private venture is given the sole and exclusive right to publish full details of programmes. I believe, without doubt, that it is an absolute scandal that the SABC grants patronage to the extent of this enormous sum of money per annum to a privately-owned magazine which serves so small a circulation, while at the same time excluding all the other media from access to its projected programmes. I believe that this must come to an end.

The last aspect I should like to discuss relates to the political slant of the SABC. Let us make no error: It still exists, although perhaps in a more subtle form than in previous years. Admittedly, there has been a small improvement. That is that the existence of the Opposition parties has at least been recognized during the last year. From time to time the odd still-photograph is permitted on the screen. The material chosen for publication, however, is still done on a highly selective basis, and very little that contains serious and motivated criticism of the Government is screened.

Discussion panels, for instance, remain hopelessly lopsided. This is especially so on the Afrikaans programmes, where usually only the most regimented views are allowed.

I remember watching a panel discussion, a month or so ago, on sport, on sport policy and on South Africa’s isolation in sport. Who were the panel? The panel consisted of Dr. Dawie de Villiers, NP member of Parliament, a well-known columnist of a NP newspaper, and a well-known sports administrator, also an extremely well-known supporter of the Government. They spoke during the entire programme, which lasted about 40 minutes, agreeing with each other. There was no room for Tommy Bedford on that programme, and also no room for that devil of devils, Hassan Howa. [Interjections.] No, the Afrikaans viewers must not know that there is anything except total national agreement on any given issue. [Interjections.] They might indeed discover that the PFP actually exists and has a standpoint.

One programme that gave me some amount of amusement, was a programme on South West Africa. In that programme a panel of five people appeared. Among them were Dr. Africa, Mr. Karuyihe and Prof. Kozonguizi. They all gave a particular view about how and why they wanted an early election in South West Africa. What TV viewers were not told, however, was that they were all members of the DTA, that they were all giving the DTA viewpoint Yet the discussion was presented as being one that revealed the broad spectrum of political thought across South West Africa. Cliff Saunders obviously wanted to get a point across,—but that is not the way to inform the public of South Africa. The picture presented was distorted and, I believe, fallacial.

The role of the SABC should be to entertain, to educate and to inform in an unbiased and impartial way. I believe that the present programmes continue to fall short of this ideal by a long shot. It is to be hoped—if it cannot be done in a day—that a new Minister of National Education, once he is appointed, will open up on radio and television what other Ministers in the past have failed to do.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Sandton has congratulated the staff association of the SABC on the standpoint they have adopted. I find it a pity that the staff association of the SABC should have meddled in this matter at all. I am now referring to the standpoint the SABC Staff Association has adopted with regard to legislation before us at the moment.

The SABC has always been very objective with regard to contentious matters such as these. I therefore believe it is a pity that they have meddled in this matter.

The hon. member for Sandton has advocated more programme time for Indians. He also advocated several other things, to which the hon. the Minister will no doubt reply. However, I just wish to point out to the hon. member that section 12(3) of the Broadcasting Act, No. 73 of 1976, reads—

We have so many population groups that it is not possible to make separate provision for all of them.

But they are one million people.

You cannot simply ignore one million people.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to devote further attention to the hon. member’s statement, because there is another matter I wish to deal with.

We should be very grateful that we have introduced television in this country, because television has already demonstrably placed us on the world map in that it presents to the world a visual dimension of what happens in this country. As a result, South Africa is no longer as defenceless as formerly against foreign intervention and the television onslaught against our country. With the aid of television, we can fight back and present people abroad with a true image of our country, its people and of conditions here. Television has created for us the channel whereby we can project our standpoint to the outside world more extensively than before. Whereas formerly news flowed to the outside world mainly through the filter of critical correspondents, television now places our leaders in the position to talk directly to people in various parts of the world. Cuts from television speeches by, and also of interviews with, the hon. the Prime Minister, the hon. the Minister of Foreign Affairs and other hon. Ministers and Coloured and Black leaders are regularly being fed to American, European and British television networks, where they are included in news bulletins and telecast to millions of people over vast areas of the world. Now, for the first time, we can project to the outside world a true picture of what is taking place in our country. Apart from that, the unfavourable image that has been created over the years, can now gradually be broken down. By means of television channels South Africa now, for the first time, has reasonable access to foreign audiences as far as its standpoint is concerned.

There is no need today to dwell on the value of the internal television service. We know how much television has already contributed to better mutual knowledge and understanding between Afrikaans-speaking and English-speaking people. We must be grateful to the SABC for showing English and Afrikaans programmed alternately on television, because it compels our people to look at both programmes and so also to appreciate the other official language.

The introduction of our television service has exerted a far greater influence than is generally known. The sale of television sets has taken place at a rate that has exceeded all expectations and the demand for television services has been stimulated to such an extent that during the past few years, hundreds of private television relay stations have been erected throughout the country.

There is one great shortcoming in respect of our television service, and that is the lack of a channel for the Black people. We are aware of the financial problem and we know that the enormous amount of approximately R150 million would be necessary to introduce such a channel. We also realize that the State has other major obligations, but I do think it would be in South Africa’s interests not to wait much longer before introducing a television service for the Black people of our country. The dramatic events and developments on our borders, where foreign ideologies are trying to gain a foothold, and also developments at home such as new initiatives by the Government regarding homeland development and the position of urban Black people, have in recent times made the introduction of a television channel for Black people all the more urgent If we only think of the vast contribution it could make towards the maintenance and improvement of sound internal race relations, then that is already sufficient reason why such a service should be introduced without delay. We have to assume that as television has influenced us, it will also influence the Black people. Television can help to inform Black people and to keep them out of the streets. It can help to educate and to amuse them. These are all things that could contribute to better race relations. It is estimated that by 1981 there will be a potential viewership of between 1¾ and 2¼ million Black people.

This shows us what a vast field is lying fallow in this regard. Nor should we lose sight of the fact that to an increasing extent, in our neighbouring States, television and radio broadcasts are taking place that can be received in certain parts of the Republic. Among these is a television service already being provided from Swaziland and which can be received in certain parts of the Eastern Transvaal. Bophuthatswana may introduce a television service that would be received by viewers in the densely populated Witwatersrand and vicinity in particular. There are also the existing medium-wave and short-wave radio broadcasts from countries such as Swaziland, Lesotho and Botswana, and the envisaged medium-wave broadcasts from Transkei and Bophuthatswana.

It is not far-fetched to assume that some of these broadcasts from outside our borders could influence the South African Blacks in directions that would be contrary to the traditional domestic policy of our country. A television service of their own for our Black people would make a substantial contribution towards countering these influences.

There is also another reason why we should make haste in this matter. In the mining industry in particular, with its vast numbers of Black workers, certain organizations have already entered into the television field or have intimated that they intend doing so. They make use of closed-circuit colour television to present their own productions in compounds, eating halls and recreation halls on the mines. In this way, the sphere of television influence that really belongs with the SABC, is being encroached upon by other organizations. This will happen to an increasing extent if the SABC does not provide a television service for Black people.

The prices of television broadcasting equipment, and also building costs, are rocketing. The longer we delay this matter, the more expensive it may ultimately become for us to create a channel for the Black people. That is yet another reason why we should not delay this any longer.

We can be grateful that the SABC has already begun with important preparatory work in this regard. We can assume that they are virtually prepared to provide such a service as soon as they obtain permission.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for Bloemfontein North for his fine contribution. In particular, I support very strongly his request and plea for the introduction of a television service for the Black people in our country.

I wish to associate myself with the criticism levelled at the television service by the hon. member for Sandton. I wish to motivate it in this way: If I were to express criticism of the service, it would be because our country and its people did not have the opportunity this year of seeing the embarrassment of the hon. Leader of the Opposition about the telephone story he became embroiled in as a result of the McHenry episode. That situation should have been telecast to all our peoples so that they could see in what position these people were. [Interjections.]

You misuse television.

Pursuant to the pleas by hon. members who discussed salaries, I wish to state that I am very grateful that the door of our hon. the Minister and the hon. the Prime Minister is always open to the teachers’ corps for their pleas and for talks. We know that the heart of the Cabinet is receptive to their case. We are grateful that there is a committee that will, in future, conduct negotiations and create the opportunity for inputs at various levels so that comparative positions and salary structures can be established on a scientific basis.

I appeal to the Cabinet to reconsider the amount being spent on education in our country. I am convinced that a greater allocation can be made in the estimates to the entire structure of education. I draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that if we express the amounts spent on education as a percentage of the gross domestic product in other comparable States and compare these with the expenditure of the Republic, I find it disconcerting that we are very low down on the list. In the USA, it is 6,6%; in Britain, 9,8%; in Canada, 7,6%; in Belgium, 5,1%; in Denmark, 7,1%; in West Germany, 4,1%; in Russia, 7,6%; in Australia, 6,4%; in Israel, 6,7%; and in the Republic, only 2,5%.

Does that include all education?

The figure for the Republic is in respect of White education. This figure is very disconcerting. This country can afford to spend more money in this particular field. Education remains the one field where initiative begins in the development of our children so that one day they will be able to meet the demands of this country in all the various subject disciplines. Our entrepreneurs have to be derived from this source. And so, too, our engineers and legal men. Whatever fields we look at, they are all derived from this source. Consequently we feel that there is justification for pleading for increased spending in the field of education.

I now wish to return to our Opposition. I am sorry that the main spokesman of the Opposition, the hon. member for Johannesburg North, is not in the House now. I am grateful, however, that the hon. member for Durban Central is present.

All present and correct.

These people are evading their duty in this House today. They talk about salaries—they have every right to talk about that—but this is not the only field for the Opposition. The estimates of expenditures in which funds are voted for that department every year, and also the annual report of the department, are, inter alia, sources of information for their speeches, and they should be debating about that.

There are only two Progs sitting here.

And they know nothing about education. I wish to say, with all due respect, that they do not know much about other fields, but about education they know absolutely nothing.

I have referred to the sources on the basis of which the hon. the Minister and his department may be tested. I cannot help thinking of the days, and I have read the relevant Hansards, when Mr. Flippie Moore sat in the Opposition benches as MP for Kensington. I can give hon. members the assurance that if he had still been here, the hon. the Minister and his department would have been in for the high jump. They would have had to account for all the expenditure in all the specific fields for which money has been voted to them in the budget. It is the duty of the hon. members to call the hon. the Minister and the department to account. The hon. members did not ask a single question and did not say a single word about that. [Interjections.] Why do they not rise instead and convey their sincere congratulations to the hon. the Minister and his department, let that suffice and then resume their seats, so that we can save time in Parliament? The hon. members are ignoring that task and they are evading their duty.

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to see that the hon. member for Johannesburg North has just resumed his seat again.

Tackle him now.

The hon. member for Johannesburg North is evading his duty in this House, and he is uninformed as well. He is still a greenhorn, a backbencher. He does not know yet what field his duty covers. He should have cross-examined the hon. the Minister about the various fields of expenditure today. I wish to mention only a few aspects. Under Vote No. 36, programme 6, I refer hon. members to the head “Promotion of cultural services”. Under that head, an amount of R2 500 per annum is being appropriated for prizes for literary works—in English as well as Afrikaans. Last night there was a news item on the prizes awarded in the field of performing arts, for which an amount of R2 000 has been appropriated. Since those hon. members are not doing their duty, I wish to put a question to the hon. the Minister. Does the hon. the Minister think that our rich country of gold, diamonds, tiger’s eye and all these splendid things can afford to set aside only R2 500 for its writers, its literary people? They cannot earn a living with that at all.

Hear, hear! I am in full agreement with you.

I do not need the support of the hon. members, even though this is his field.

You need it.

It cries to high heaven that our country is allocating only that small amount to those people. If we compare that amount with the bursaries awarded to sportsmen—not that I wish to detract from sports bursaries—we can see how distorted the picture is. During this week we conducted a hectic debate here on the concept of freedom of the Press, on the ability of people to write and on the originality required to make statements and represent thoughts. Is there no possibility of awarding a journalistic prize to the brilliant Pressmen? That would afford them the opportunity, with their fresh creative ability, to open up new vistas. But in these times R2 500 is a very small amount.

I wish to ask something else on behalf of those hon. members who are not doing their duty. In programme 2, annexure C, I refer hon. members to the amount allotted for nuclear research at our universities. It is the young people who have to work with that source of energy. We have an energy problem in our country, and it is those young people who have to do the exploratory work and who have to break new ground for us. The financing formula for universities is of such a nature that universities with a large number of enrolled students have an advantage. [Interjections.] Smaller universities with smaller enrolments find it extremely difficult to get their books to balance, to make ends meet. Should we not reconsider this matter? The smaller the number of students, the more individual work, individual contact, there is, and the more intensive is the interaction between lecturer and student, with a greater measure of success of course. In his day, the hon. member for Johannesburg North was an able man in the field of the arts, etc.

When was that?

That was long ago, but now, in his life as a grey-beard, blindness has set in and he has made a nonsensical decision, and that was the day when that grey-beard joined the PFP.

Hon. grey-beard.

Yes.

Order! I am sorry, but the hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I am merely rising to afford the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon. Whip for the opportunity. I just want to deal with one further field. We notice from our estimate figures that R27½ million has been allotted this year to 67 schools or institutions for the handicapped, with 6 884 pupils—that was the enrolment on the first Tuesday in March, 1978. Last year, R22½ million was allotted. If we calculate the per capita cost for handicapped children, we find that in the case of the school for autistic children at Claremont, it amounts to R3 584. For the physically handicapped child, it is an average of R2 982. As against that, the average cost per capita for the ordinary pupil in the province is R551, and for the university student at all our residential universities, excluding Unisa, R2 657. The figures in respect of the autistic child and the physically handicapped child are higher than those in respect of the average university student and the ordinary pupil. I have no fault to find with that. We are world leaders in the care of the handicapped child, but what are we doing for our more gifted child for whom the cost per capita is R551? I suggest that we consider the possibility of establishing more extracurricular centres where the gifted children can be accommodated, at times when they are available—and there are many such times. The gifted child is an intelligent person and we should identify and inspire him, for the sake of his own development and to meet the needs of our country, to enter into further fields. We must do this for these children.

There is one final idea I wish to raise. In the Agriculture debate we discussed the resettlement of farmers in our border areas in order to counteract the depopulation of those areas. This is a huge programme which is being launched. However, I wish to state unequivocally today that unless immediate provision is made for education in that regard, that plan will fail. People will not move to the border areas if we do not make provision for educational facilities for their children. We need young people with children there, so that we can build up those areas again and nourish them with farm children.

I wish to quote a few figures in this regard. In the Transvaal, there are at present 7 021 vacancies in hostels. Expressed in terms of money this means that an amount of R21 million is lying fallow. This is due to the migration from those areas. The total number of students in the seven comprehensive units of Lichtenburg, Nelspruit, Pietersburg, Rustenburg, the Far North, the Far West and Waterberg, which are border areas, does not even constitute 12% of the Transvaal’s school population. In the case of the Far North, Far West and Waterberg border areas, the figure is 4,5%. If we take into account only the pupils in the Far North areas along the entire northern border and the Far West, the region bordering on Bophuthatswana, we find that they constitute 2,5% of the Transvaal school population.

Those of Waterberg therefore constitute only 2% of the school population!

In my view, it is essential that we should redirect the educational facilities to schools in those regions. But for that we need financial assistance. If hostels have to be filled, we also have to make bursaries and transport, that is to say buses, available. There is an existing arrangement whereby the child must live beyond walking distance of the bus stop. This is a matter we should rectify, because in that respect we need to accommodate those people. If need be, the bus should pick up the child at his home. I think this is essential. There are many, many children in the cities, in the concrete jungles, today who would very much like to go back to the rural areas. However, if we wish to achieve that, we have to accommodate those parents and make provision for those children to be able to go home. I have in mind schools with hostels, such as those at Welgedacht, Marken, Bulgerivier, Swartwater and Mopanie. In that lovely bushveld area one still finds the impala and the kudu. If we want to achieve that, the hon. the Minister must definitely make immediate provision for educational facilities for the families of border farmers.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Standerton set an example here today which, it is to be hoped, other hon. members on that side of the House will follow. To be more specific, he rose here and put penetrating questions to the hon. the Minister and insisted on satisfactory replies. I believe that is the spirit in which we ought to act in this House.

Before I go any further, I just want to say with reference to the speech made by the hon. member for Virginia that I regret the way in which he dealt with the admission of non-White students to White universities.

Why?

I believe the way in which he dealt with it, was wrong. I regret it. Actually the attitude adopted by him was one of “we allow you there because there is no other way, but the fact that we do allow you there, does not mean that you have other rights; our policy remains the same”. That was the message. The hon. the Minister described that attitude as the right one. I do not want to get involved in the matter; I just want to sound a warning. When we enter a new field, we should do nothing and say nothing which could create the impression that we are creating a kind of a second-class student, because I think it would be very wrong and irresponsible to do so.

†On 18 and 19 September 1978 a very important symposium was held in Pretoria on the subject of the transition from the school to the university. The committee of university principals subsequently issued a report on the proceedings, the lectures and the discussions. I was very grateful to Dr. Steyn for letting me have a copy of it. In 10 minutes one obviously cannot do justice to all the matters that were raised there. I am frequently going to make use of statistics I have obtained from this report to present my case. First of all it is shown in this report that 27% of all school going children do in fact matriculate and that out of that 27%, 75% to 90% go to university. It is worthwhile to note that as far as the intelligence of the population is concerned, that the 27th percentile corresponds to an IQ of 109. Correctly the question is posed—I want to emphasize it—whether we have not reached the stage at which saturation point has been reached as far as the intake of White universities is concerned. Can one really reasonably expect that a person with an IQ of below 109 should be regarded as university material?

Consequently we have to exercise control.

I shall come to that. It would appear to me that should the intake of a particular age group increase any further, it would only increase the drop-out rate. In this report it is further stated that 20% of the Whites in a particular age group in South Africa do obtain university qualifications. This figure is very high. It is second only to the USA, where 24% of the persons in a particular age group obtain university qualifications. A further point I wish to underline, is that the success rate in South Africa has, according to studies, increased. For the period 1955 to 1961 the success rate was 56% and in the period 1967 to 1975 it was 67%. This is still lower than the rate, for instance, in the United Kingdom, but then again three times as many students in South Africa go to university than in the United Kingdom. Therefore one can reasonably expect that there would be a greater drop-out rate in South Africa.

I should like to raise certain points which are based on these statistics. The first point I should like to raise is that measured against South Africa’s manpower and training needs, the percentage of Whites who obtain purely university qualifications is far too high and that this requires attention. I say this without trying to belittle university qualifications and in full cognizance of the fact that there is a high correlation between a person’s university qualifications and training and his level of productivity. While I do not find any fault with the ratio of one graduate at tertiary level out of every five members of the population, I sincerely believe that we do need a better distribution of students at tertiary level. We need better guidance and we need, for instance, greater motivation.

In this regard we do not only need greater motivation as far as the student is concerned, but also greater motivation and guidance as far as the parents are concerned. Today we still find that too many parents do not realize the true nature and the true advantages of technical education offered at technikons. In this regard I must perhaps say to the hon. member for Standerton that I also want to refer to this Bible of ours, namely the budget, and say that the increase of just over 10% in respect of technical education in South Africa is solely aimed at keeping up with inflation. It is not really an improvement at all. I am referring to the increase in advanced technical education—the technikons—from R28 million to R31 million.

In South Africa we already find that the average university has a greater enrolment compared to what we find in the USA or the United Kingdom. The hon. the Minister of Public Works who is now leaving the Chamber interjected a little while ago about the finance formula, but no matter how one looks at this and even if one allows adequate compensation for the balances which are built into it, the fact remains that the formula for financing boils down to a counting of heads. Therefore one finds that universities naturally compete for more and more students. It is therefore imperative that we have another look at the method of financing and I think we should continually look at this.

I want to say further that the technikons as such should receive far greater prominence.

*Now I want to refer briefly to the committee of inquiry into the National Film Board which has already submitted its report. What I am going to say now, will naturally be more in the form of an autopsy than anything else, as the National Film Board as such is now going to disappear. I do believe, however, that we could learn some valuable lessons from this. The first lesson we could learn, is that when a Government department ventures into the business world, as the National Film Board did, it must ensure in the very first place that it has the necessary business expertise so that its activities may be conducted on a business basis. It is clear that this was lacking in the case of the National Film Board. There was very little advance planning with regard to the problems created by inflation, and also with regard to the wrong price policy which was followed in respect of the services rendered. In other words, it was very clear that a financial failure was unavoidable in the end. Naturally there was also an impressive list of ex officio officials who served on it and actually one is surprised to find that such a state of affairs could have developed. Particularly since the board obviously also competed on a preferential basis with private industries, one cannot really understand why it encountered these problems.

In this regard there are two specific questions which I want to put to the hon. the Minister. Firstly, in what way are the various services which were rendered by the council being accommodated now? The day before yesterday the hon. the Minister replied to one aspect, i.e. the aspect of micro-film services, but in what way are the other services as such being accommodated? Secondly, is there any truth in a recent report which I read that some members of the staff are still struggling to find employment and to what extent is responsibility being accepted for their employment?

†I wish to conclude by briefly referring to the inquiry into the performing arts. Last year an inquiry was held and serious accusations were made by the director of Napac that the report contained gross errors in factual statements. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon. member the opportunity to conclude his speech.

I express my thanks to the hon. the Minister. I shall be only a minute or two.

Serious accusations were levelled by the director of Napac that the report contained gross errors, in factual statements, faulty premises and deductions. From the information supplied by the Napac director, it would appear that his claim is not completely unfounded and I should like to know what progress has been made to overcome this difficulty, because, under these circumstances, one does not know how to evaluate the findings of the commission. However, I am prepared to accept in broad outline the findings and the recommendations. I should like to urge the Government and local authorities to embark upon a systematic plan to implement some of these recommendations. Dust should not be allowed to settle on this report. Cultural improvement and enrichment has always enjoyed a very low priority as far as the Government and the authorities of South Africa are concerned. It should be the Department of National Education, including the hon. the Minister, that should be spearheading a cultural revival in South Africa. I was very pleased to hear about the increase of incentives in the cultural field, as the hon. member for Standerton said, and I am looking forward to hear more about this from the hon. the Minister. I believe that as far as this is concerned, that the ball is now in his court.

Mr. Chairman, in the first place I should like to convey my thanks to hon. members for their kind words to me. I am sorry that my presence in the department and my departure from it so much resemble the greetings between two dogs: a lick, a wag of the tail and then they go their separate ways. This is often the way things are in life and there is not much one can do about it At the same time, I greatly appreciate their good wishes to me now that I am taking up a new post. I am actually in trouble as far as this is concerned, because I have received so many good wishes that I shall not be able to let anyone down. I shall have to stay on my toes. On the other hand, it does me good.

My predecessor in this department was a man of many abilities. We all knew him as a person with a bubbling enthusiasm. I should like to thank him for all the fine things he bequeathed to me, and should any problems arise, I want to tell him that I shall take him to task later. He always praised this department and he always paid tribute to the people employed in the department On one occasion he wrote me the following note: “A fine department with good and hard-working people. You will enjoy working there.” I really did. I also want to thank him for his guidance with regard to many new lines of thought, new schemes and new projects that have been embarked upon. In spite of everything, I have been able to give some attention to certain of these projects, and we know that these are matters which will continue, whether or not we are there.

In addition, I am privileged to work with some outstanding officials in the department I have been enriched by the experience of working with an outstanding Secretary, Dr. Van Wyk, and also with the other officials all down the line. I think many hon. members who were present during that visit to the department in Pretoria will be able to testify to the fact that these are really very competent officials, motivated people, people with the best professional and administrative grounding one could wish for. As a fine team they do dedicated work in all the wide spheres of activity of the department I have been enriched by my association with them and I can only wish them the best for the years to come.

During the short while I have been involved with this department I have also come into contact with colleagues in this House, colleagues on this side of the House who take a special interest in education. They have had conversations with me and we have exchanged ideas. It has been pleasant to be able to do this. I am sorry that it is now coming to an end. I have also had the opportunity of exchanging thoughts with Opposition members on the activities of the department. They also made certain representations to me, and although one cannot always be of assistance, perhaps, one is glad that they found one’s door open and that they were welcome to approach one. They felt that one was not repulsing them, but was prepared to receive and to help them. Accordingly, I want to express my thanks for the contact I had with those hon. members as well.

I have tried to do my share in the department during the period I have been in Parliament I have tried to propagate two qualities in particular, i.e. devotion to duty and responsibility. All along my motto has been: May I remain the master of my will and the slave of my conscience. That will also be my philosophy in the future.

One of the important matters mentioned here today is the question of salaries. Salary matters are sensitive and can often be very emotional as well. Also, one can use this matter in various ways, i.e. one can put the case here in a genuine attempt to promote it or one can raise it here in order to make political capital out of it. In discussing this matter, I do not want to approach the official Opposition in that spirit during my last appearance here. Let us be honest, however. It is true that the discussions we conduct here often serve to add oil to the flames. In that way we do not arrive at any real solution. Of course, it is the right of the Opposition to discuss these matters. I welcome it when they do. In fact, they present new points of view. However, when they talk about it, they must remember that they are not in a position to carry out the promises they themselves would like to make. It remains the ultimate responsibility of the Government to evaluate the whole matter and then to make allocations according to the means at its disposal. However, I am pleased about the fact that hon. members of the Opposition have also stated here that they regard education as important. We do not doubt the sentiments they express in this respect. We are pleased to have them as our allies in pleading the cause of education.

I also wish to put the standpoint of the Government, however. To be able to do this, I need not go back a long way in history. I shall begin with quite recent statements. The first statement I wish to refer to is the one by the hon. the Prime Minister when he summoned me to appoint me to this post. On that occasion the hon. the Prime Minister told me that because education was important to him, he would like us to handle the matter in such a way that there will never be confrontation between the teachers, the academics and the Government authority, because that would be counter-productive. Those were his words to me, without any prior conversation about education which could have prompted him to say so. Those were his opening words.

However, I want to go further. In the latest talks which the hon. the Prime Minister, together with myself and other colleagues of mine, had with the representatives of the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations, the hon. the Prime Minister repeated, in welcoming these people to the discussions, that he, and the Government, considered education to be of the utmost importance and that he wished to avoid a conflict between education as a whole and Government authority. For that reason he was glad, he said, that they were coming to have talks with him. I could go further. On the same occasion, the hon. the Minister of the Interior endorsed those sentiments. So did the hon. the Minister of Finance. We must remember that they occupy key positions with regard to salary matters. This applies especially to the hon. the Minister of Finance, a man who was also a member of an institution for higher education at one time and who therefore has a good background as far as this matter is concerned. He said in all sincerity that he considered education as a whole to be important.

The hon. the Prime Minister also pointed out that there was not a single interest group whose interests were more frequently discussed in the Cabinet than teachers and university people. I can confirm this for the short while I have been serving on the Cabinet. I cannot recall the affairs of any other group being discussed by the Cabinet so often, as a result of memoranda or simply as an item on the agenda. This again highlights the importance which the State attaches to education, in that highest assembly as well.

Now we can say, of course, that this is nothing more than …

[Inaudible.]

I am referring to professional groups now. The hon. member for Durban Central must not misunderstand me. He is lying in wait for the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, of course, to tell him, when the opportunity presents itself, that he did not speak about the farmers.

With reference to what I have just said, it may easily be argued that all this amounts to nothing more than expressions of sympathy, declarations about the important position assigned to education, but that when all is said and done, no cash has been diverted into these people’s pockets, that their general position has not improved at all. Very well, let us examine that as well, especially the aspect which is often raised in this particular discussions, i.e. the advancement of education. This matter was considered by the Cabinet and my predecessor said the following on 30 November 1976—

I emphasize this, because the new dispensation should not be regarded as one of which salaries are the only component [Interjections.] There are quite a number of other components involved in the new dispensation. Hon. members should now listen carefully—

This is one component which is mentioned—

This is an important component to which I think effect has already been given and will increasingly be given—

This is something which is already being carried out. It may not be going smoothly yet, because it has been applicable for only a short while, since the beginning of the year—

When one looks at the key scales, one finds that these are also there. Furthermore—

This has already been done and is now applicable—

I do not want to quote everything now. It means that if a teacher obtains a higher qualification, he can more rapidly be considered for promotion. I am mentioning these matters only to indicate that salary— hard cash—is one of the components of the total new dispensation and that many of the components of the new dispensation are already being implemented, while others are in the process of implementation. I do not want to allege that everything is already going smoothly. There are some new aspects which are being introduced for the first time, so one may expect that there will be some anomalies and some hitches.

In this connection, much has been said about the cordial co-operation between the Government, the educational authorities concerned, and the organized teaching profession. I quote again from the statement—

That is the whole series of components—

This applies to that particular year. However, it also applies to future occasions. There is a whole package with components which must be implemented, and among them are elements involving money. It will only be possible to give effect to such elements if the money is available—on this occasion and on future occasions as well. I quote further—

In May 1977, the announcement was made in this House that the economic position had in fact progressed to the point where certain of these measures could be implemented. In December 1977, it was announced that the revised teaching structure, which would comply with the minimum requirements of the teaching profession, would be made applicable as from 1 January 1978. That was the general course of events up to that stage.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, when business was suspended, I was saying that an announcement was made in 1977 concerning the new salary structures which were to be applicable from 1 January 1978 and which were to be applied on the minimum scale. Furthermore, there was the question of merit promotion, which is also a component of this whole new dispensation. Merit promotion means that provision is made in the entrance grades for a teacher to be assessed on merit as soon as he has two years’ teaching experience, and when he has attained a specific level on the merit scale, he can immediately gain a salary increment, and his maximum salary is also increased. This can happen to him again after two years, and in aggregate three times in his teaching career. It is also in the interests of the teacher himself to gain this particular advantage for himself.

With the new posts structure, it was necessary to transfer people from the old posts structure to the new one and to accommodate them there. In the course of these adjustments, mistakes were made. Several circulars were sent out, and none of this was done on purpose. There was the problem, perhaps, that everything was not made clear, which caused incorrect adjustments to be made. The danger existed that people in respect of whom incorrect adjustments had been made would have to make refunds. This would naturally have placed some people in a rather difficult position. This matter has not yet been finalized, but as far as I know, and I hope I am not arousing unrealistic expectations, there are favourable proposals that no refunds should be demanded. This may cost the State an amount of round about R10 million which teachers may gain in this way as a benefit which was not originally included in what was owing to teachers. I mention the amount since it is of considerable importance.

Furthermore, we must take into consideration that it was originally calculated that the implementation of the minimum scale would cost the State R33,2 million for Whites and R11,5 million for non-Whites, i.e. a total of R44,7 million. When the minimum scales were eventually implemented, it cost the State R117 million.

Was it not said that it would cost R100 million?

This is the information I obtained from departmental files. In other words, this also makes a difference to what the State may have left in the Treasury or what it has to spend. The vast majority of teachers received a salary increase on 1 January 1978. They received the increases on the following very favourable key scale: R … 2 160 × 360 - 5 400 × 450 - 9 000 × 600 …, with a further subsequent increase as the scales extend even beyond that. Hon. members will immediately notice the large increments in between. This is another component of the new dispensation. I shall also give the comparable key scales of the Public Service before revision, which are as follows: R … 1 800 × 150 - 3 300 × 180- 5 100 × 240 - 6 300 × 360 - 9 900 × 450 - 12 600, and then further increases of R600 a year until scales are reached which are not paralleled in education. The profit percentage in respect of education will therefore be more favourable on 1 April 1979 when compared with 1 January 1978. Even since 1 April 1979, the revised key scale of the Public Service has been greatly inferior to that of education. Since that date, the respective key scales have been as follows: The scale for education: R … 2 160 × 360 - 5 400 × 540 - 9 000 × 600 - 18 600 and higher if it rises any higher, but I think it stops there. For the Public Service: R2 100 × 180 - 3 900 × 210 - 6 000 × 300 - 7 800 × 420 - 12 000 × 600 - 18 600 × 900, subsequently rising to levels which are not paralleled in education. According to Press reports, my predecessor intimated at some stage to the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations in South Africa that the ideal scale, the ideal structure, had been accepted in principle by the Cabinet However, this is not mentioned in a single Press statement made from time to time by Dr. Koornhof, my predecessor.

[Inaudible.]

Order!

Not in any of the official Press statements. There have been announcements that the minimum structure would be implemented, and since the Prime Minister’s statement of 26 April 1976, it has been stated categorically throughout that it will only be possible to consider a new structure when the economy allows it At no stage was the ideal structure recommended to the Cabinet for its consideration by the Public Service Commission, because the funds for it have never been available.

Then they bluffed everyone.

I am talking about official statements which I have obtained from the files of the department. In this whole exercise, only one component of education has been singled out and favoured. Normally we say that education is one great whole and has to be handled as a whole from the pre-primary level up to the universities. Here that principle has been deviated from, and one component of education has been singled out. People have asked why this was done. One of the reasons why it was done is that there was a very great shortage of teachers in specific subjects, and that not enough prospective teachers were offering to join the profession. In addition, the difficult financial circumstances in which our country found itself made it impossible for us to advance education as a whole. Up to that stage it had always been the practice, in drawing up new structures, to begin with the lowest cadres, i.e. with primary and secondary education. In this case, the teachers’ colleges, which are handled by the provincial authorities, were included in this cadre. Those structures are determined, and only then, on the basis of those structures, are the structures for tertiary education drawn up. When new structures were implemented at the beginning of 1978, it was done for this one component of education, but at the instruction of the Public Service Commission, the Committee of University Principals and the Association of Technikons—as we shall now call them— immediately gave attention to a new structure for this tertiary education which would be related in a logical way to the structure which has already been given to education and which would be developed on that basis.

So this new structure of tertiary education the new scales were to be made applicable as from 1 April this year. So the matter was in fact handled in a fragmentary way, and this created great problems for the Public Service Commission as well. However, I have the assurance of the hon. the Prime Minister—I give it today—that in the future, the salaries will not be dealt with in a piecemeal fashion again as they have been in this case. The implementation of new structures and adaptations will be done for education as a whole. I think it is important that we should say this, for a specific principle is being laid down here. Whatever the circumstances may be in the future, we must adhere to these principles, and it is my wish that we should do so.

At my request, the Secretary for National Education is already giving attention to the necessary machinery within the department to conduct research on a continuous basis into the determination of salary structures for education in its totality so that they may be rectified and determined scientifically. We are introducing that machinery, and we have been commended for doing so. Let me substantiate that. I want to read from a letter I have received from the secretary of the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations. Referring to our talks, he writes—

I am pointing this out, not because there is an immediate solution to certain problems, but to indicate the way in which we are trying to eliminate problems in the interests of education. The letter I have quoted shows the reaction there has been to this. I received a similar reaction from one of the university principals who were present and later also from the chairman of the Committee of University Principals. I have here a letter from Sir Richard Luyt of the University of Cape Town, in which he thanks me for the meeting. I do not want to read the whole letter, for if I did, I might seem to be blowing my own trumpet He writes, among other things—

We are in fact achieving things and not just getting bogged down in problems.

I want to go further. With reference to the principle I should like to have introduced, i.e. continuous research in a scientific manner, I should like to refer to what was recently said by the Secretary of the Public Service Commission, which once again indicates the healthy development that is taking place—

I just want to point out the tendency to hon. members. I have also asked the Secretary for National Education, even if we do not have the machinery quite ready yet, to co-operate with the interested parties in making certain submissions with regard to next year for the consideration of the Treasury.

There are other factors, too, which I want to point out in this connection. The State is responsible for the balanced development of the country, especially for placing people in every professional group in the country. All sectors must be properly manned. In whatever sector a person works, his remuneration should be such that he will remain there and that new recruits will enter that sphere of activity. If vacancies arise, they should be filled. In other words, the whole wide spectrum is the responsibility of the State. If the security services are not properly seen to, for example, one may expect that eventually the security services will not be properly manned and we shall have problems there. If one needs specific essential manpower categories at certain places, surely one cannot ignore that. The Department of Water Affairs has had to suspend projects because there were no engineers to proceed with those projects. It has come to my notice that the Department of Agriculture built a new research building in the Northern Transvaal in order to do research on advocado pears. However, they had to close the building because there were not enough researchers to man the building. The people had gone to work at other places. I mention this to illustrate to hon. members that one cannot single out an occupational group anywhere in the whole State administration to such an extent that the others do not also deserve their place and cannot also keep going the machinery, the research, the administration, or whatever, on those levels. In his talks with the representatives of the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations, the hon. the Prime Minister said that education was one of the priorities and not the only priority, for often circumstances dictate what one should regard as one’s priority. With the revision of the salary structures of teachers, the principle of occupational differentiation became an accomplished fact. The principle of occupational differentiation is now being extended to the Public Service as well, for in the Public Service, too, there are certain occupational groups that have to receive attention. I want to refer to the example of library assistants. In spite of all the money the Public Service is now getting, some of those people are not even getting a salary adjustment of 2% because there are enough people who want to become library assistants. However, there are other directions to which people should be attracted in order to keep the services functioning properly. What goes for library assistants also goes for certain shipping personnel and for probationer and student nurses. The amount of money which the Public Service has received is not being used for a general increase of Public Service salaries, but for making the concept of occupational differentiation applicable to the Public Service as well.

I want to go further and say to hon. members that if the salaries of teachers had been increased at this stage—and now I am not even talking about the universities—we would have aggravated certain anomalies. Because of practical problems which we experienced and the conditions which prevailed in our country at that stage, it was simply not possible to adjust the salaries of teachers. However, I want to say—I do not want to dwell on this—that the State must also create a climate through its policy in which education can in fact take place. The NP has created the climate through its policy in which everyone in South Africa can be instructed and educated in a meaningful way. This is the responsibility of the State. Listening to hon. members on that side of the House—I am not trying to pick a quarrel now—one wonders whether we would still be able to offer meaningful education, as we are doing at the moment, if certain policies were pursued. In other words, we are concerned with one great whole, and not only with one small component, however much we may sympathize with that component.

The State creates the total infrastructure of the physical facilities as well—and in how many spheres are those facilities not being created! When one looks at the annual report of the department one sees that the department’s responsibilities in respect of the maintenance of schools and universities cover a very wide field—and then we are not even mentioning the contribution of the provincial administrations in this connection. We are only concerned with the infrastructure that has to be created. This must also be manned and provided with the physical facilities and apparatus. Furthermore, the State is also responsible for employing some of the products of these schools. Therefore the responsibility of the State never ceases. When the State employs them, it must treat them in such a way that it will be able to retain their services as its officials.

The hon. member for Johannesburg North referred to newspaper reports. He quoted, inter alia, from Die Transvaler. I also want to quote from Die Transvaler, from the 19 May 1979 edition. I quote—

That is basically what it amounts to. We can cap one quotation with another, but that is basically what the State is confronted with. I believe I have now dealt with this whole matter in sufficient detail. There were the circumstances in which the country found itself, the money was not there, and there were the practical problems to which I have already referred and which the teachers do understand. There was also the further agreement which we reached after our talks with the hon. the Prime Minister, i.e. that representatives of the federal council, the department and the Public Service Commission would form a committee in order to gather information, to evaluate it and then to draft an information document which would be sent to the teachers. It is advisable that we should leave this matter in their hands so that they may handle it from now on.

With reference to what Prof. Terblanche, the chairman of the federal council, said in connection with the “betrayal” which had allegedly taken place, I personally told him that one could understand that people sometimes felt dissatisfied and upset, but in our negotiations even with the UN, where one feels like using terrible language towards them, we have never used that kind of language. Therefore we take exception to that, and I told him so personally. However, I want to leave the matter at that. There is machinery in operation at the moment, in which the teaching profession is in fact involved, to handle this matter in the future.

I have now discussed in some detail the matters referred to by the hon. member for Johannesburg North.

The hon. member for Hercules referred to a few cultural bodies and to the University of Stellenbosch. I should like to associate myself with his words of congratulation. I myself spoke at Stellenbosch a few times during the celebration of the tercentenary of that lovely town—the colony on the Eerste River, I call it. It was quite pleasant, and I think they set an example to us in the country of the way these occasions should be utilized. The hon. member also referred to the castle and the FAK. I think the FAK deserves a special word of congratulation from us on the occasion of its 50th birthday. The FAK has done splendid work in South Africa, and we should like to wish them everything of the best for the next 50 years. The hon. member also referred to a person who had served us in the cultural sphere, Mrs. Kotie Roodt-Coetzee. I should like to identify myself with the thanks he expressed to this lady. I served with her in the days when I was still on the executive committee of the Historical Association of South Africa, but the work she did at the Boom Street museum, as well as at the Cultural Historic Open-air Museum, laid the foundation for much of the work we are doing in museums in South Africa.

The hon. member takes a great interest in occupation-orientated education, and he referred to this subject again. It is a good thing that we should emphasize these matters here from time to time. I recently spoke at several of our technikons, and it is a pleasure to see how highly motivated these people are in their work and how they see their future task. As the hon. member said, there should always be close contact with the employers, because we are concerned here with the whole manpower strategy of South Africa. Universities, technikons, employers and all others who are involved in this must act in a co-ordinated manner as far as the manpower strategy is concerned, so that we may provide the country with high-level manpower and with high-level managers.

Another important matter to which the hon. member referred was that the training should be such that there could always be on-going training.

The hon. member also referred to the amazing growth of knowledge, the way knowledge is becoming obsolete and new knowledge is continuously being acquired. He furnished some examples in this connection. It is really amazing. A person who is trained for a profession today cannot even assume any more that he will practice that profession to the end of his life without having to be retrained. These are matters of which the technikons are very well aware, and matters to which we are giving special attention. As regards the supply of funds to the technikons—the hon. member for Durban Central also referred to this—the operating expenditure is not so high, but if one found out the capital expenditure we should have to incur for the construction of three new campuses for technikons and certain additions to a fourth one, one would find that a lot of work is being done in this connection. The student numbers have also grown considerably. I should like the lecturers at those institutions to try to improve and expand their qualifications and their knowledge as instructors in many fields, especially in the present circumstances, where increased knowledge and new techniques are always becoming available. However, I should like to thank the hon. member for his particular contribution in this connection.

I have replied to most of the matters raised by the hon. member for Durban Central in his first speech, because these dealt mainly with the whole question of salaries. I want to tell the hon. member that one wants to avoid a situation where one always has to sit down around a table with the teaching profession to talk or quarrel about salary matters. I should also like to talk to them about the purpose of education, education policy and problems experienced in practical education. They agreed with me in this connection. That is why I introduced the machinery to which I referred earlier to make submissions with regard to salary matters to see whether perhaps it is going to work. We believe that this matter will take its normal course so that we shall not be at loggerheads about salary matters, but shall be able to discuss the essential aspects of education as well. I shall come back later to the matters he mentioned in his second speech.

I must also convey my thanks to the hon. member for Virginia for his policy interpretations with regard to quite a number of matters. As far as policy matters are concerned, I want to endorse, what he said, for in the times in which we live, I believe it is necessary that we should tell one another a few things. We are living in confusing times. We often witness the meaningless destruction of property and human life and we often see moral and other values trampled underfoot Man will gradually come to realize that he has mismanaged his heritage and that in many respects he has been untrue to his heritage and has made a mess of it. People even ask: What is the future of Western culture, under these circumstances? It is true that man is in search of an instrument to correct the mistakes he may have made in the past and to save what can still be saved. That is why man, as a cultural being, created education, because education is future-orientated, it reaches out to the future, and one can conquer the future, as it were, if one handles education correctly. All through the history of man-king, various theories, philosophies and schools of thought have seized upon education as an instrument for achieving their aims. An example of this is the new direction which is emerging today, the so-called Frankfurter Schule of the new left, which simply does not believe in the capitalist social order and which rejects it in its educational doctrine. They do so because the so-called capitalist establishment to which they are opposed is authoritarian. Everything created by this establishment must be destroyed, because it oppresses people, exploits them, etc. As far as they are concerned, education should be used as the instrument for propagating this anti-authoritarian educational doctrine in order to overthrow political, cultural and social patterns of our times. The child and education are the instruments on which they place their hope. This being so, we must also take a close look at education. What are we seeking to achieve through education?

In these days of the demoralization of young people, of which, fortunately, we have had very little experience in our country, in these days of vandalism, when values are trampled underfoot—which we saw happening abroad about a decade ago in particular— it is clear that these very young people, the ones who behaved in this way, were people who had received more and had been moulded more by way of formal education, by way of schooling and by way of learning, than any previous generation in the whole history of mankind. And then they behave like that. Where does the fault lie? If I had to sum up the matter, I would say that it is not a lack of schooling, but rather a lack of education. It is not a lack of knowledge, it is a lack of character. It is not a lack of intellectual training, but a lack of spiritual maturity.

Once we know that, we must also look at education, this powerful instrument. Then we ask ourselves what course we want to take with education and how we should handle it. For this reason, we should examine our objective in education, so that we may get rid as soon as possible of these warped attitudes which develop so easily and of the character deformities which grow in our society. After all, education concerns the moulding of the future human being. Education is education in tradition. An hon. member referred to this. That is correct: Education for the sake of one’s cultural destiny, or the training of one’s personality and conscience, if we want to put it like that However, I think it would be a more accurate summary if we said that it concerns the creation of a view of life among our young people. After all, a view of life is a universally human matter. It affects one in every situation in life, because man is constantly confronted with certain values and he has to work out an order of priorities for himself so that he may know how to behave in a particular situation, prompted by his system of values.

When someone has been thus equipped, he has no problems when he reaches maturity. However, where does one begin with this process? Man’s basic need is his need for security. That is the basic need of all people, especially of the child. However, it is also the prerequisite for security when a person reaches maturity, otherwise it is no use sending a young person out into an uncertain world. Security in life is an essential component and element, in adulthood as well. A person who wants to educate a child, therefore, must meet the child in his world, the world in which he feels secure, because it is the world in which he lives, the world of his culture and his language, of his traditions, of his knowledge and his social activities, with his social orders. It is the world of his moral values. It is the world of his history. It is the world of his values. We can add to this whatever we like. In that world, we must meet the child, because that is the world he knows. From there he has to be guided to adulthood.

Their particular situation and their unique cultural background determine the educational needs of children from various cultures and peoples, and it differs from the one to the other. We must also take cognisance of those differences in South Africa, when it comes to education. First educate a person in his own backyard, first make him feel at home in his own backyard, then he will also know where he has to stand in the future. If one does not know one’s own space, one will not know what space to allocate to the other man. The hon. member for Virginia is right and I should like to emphasize that. It applies all the way from primary to secondary school and up to the universities. We must not forget these principles. Those who wish to put children of all races and cultures on the same level in the same school by means of education are basically intolerant and unpedagogic, because they will not allow the other person to be different. Consequently they do not want to give him his full freedom in adulthood. I think I must say that, so that we may know where we stand in respect of this matter. [Interjections.]

Then there are hon. members on that side of the House, such as the hon. member for Pinelands, who say that education should be disquieting and disruptive—the opposite of security as the starting point of a pedagogic situation. I could continue in this way, but I want to leave it at that. I think it is necessary that we should state some of these fundamental standpoints. I am glad that the hon. member for Virginia raised that subject.

I must make haste.

†The hon. member for Sandton referred to programmes for Indians on the radio. I want to tell him that, in addition to the English service, matters of interest to the Indians are continuously included in various programmes. The interview in the programme “Radio Today” of this morning with Mr. Reddy, the chairman of the Indian Council, serves as an example. A very large portion of the programmes of Radio Port Natal are especially aimed at. Indians. Even a large portion of the requests in the request programmes come from Indians. We want to apply the same principle as far as TV is concerned. We have already had programmes with the South African Indian population as the subject. There is a new programme—it is almost completed—that will be broadcast in the near future.

The SABC programme magazine is a publication especially aimed at the listeners and the viewers who are interested in the radio and television programmes. This is a SABC publication, especially for those who are interested in what is broadcast on the radio and television.

This information is also available for the other media. However, they are mostly interested in reprinting the television programmes.

*The hon. member also pointed out that there was a slanted presentation of the news on radio and television. Even the hon. member himself smiles. I think these are only vague allegations without any substance. There is very little justification for them. [Interjections.] The hon. members on that side of the House are the ones who complain about it. However, it has been said in the past that when one goes to the general public, there is a completely different attitude. Up to 85% of the people have indicated in a summary of surveys that they have great appreciation for the presentations on radio as well as television. When a summary is given of debates in this House, I get representations from the hon. members on this side of the House to the effect that they are not given enough opportunities and that hon. members on that side of the House have even more opportunities than they have. [Interjections.] The hon. members really cannot complain about that.

While I am on the subject of television, I want to refer to the hon. member for Bloemfontein North. He mentioned an important matter, i.e. the provision of a second television channel for our Black people in particular. I shall not discuss all his arguments now. He is right in all the reasons he advanced for saying that the introduction of that second channel is now becoming essential. I want to remind him of the fact that the SABC conducted research in this connection as far back as 1975 with a view to its possible introduction. I think they were ready to introduce it by 1978. However, they have kept it back because the economic position of the country has been such that we have not been able to introduce it A large amount of work has already been done by various committees, and I am told that the report of some of those committees, containing the final submissions on this matter, are actually on their way to me and will therefore be considered in the near future. The important point, however, is that the Cabinet has already agreed in principle to a second channel. I think it is now only a question of working it out in greater detail, and also a question of financing. I can assure the hon. member that this matter is actually being kept warm, because we are just as anxious as he is to have it finalized.

The hon. member for Standerton discussed the population in the border areas and said that there were some areas in our country which people were leaving as a result of various circumstances and that this was causing those areas to become depopulated. He asked us to examine these areas specifically. It is probably true that one will not be able to attract more people to these areas by means of low interest rates on agricultural loans and so forth, and that one will also have to provide certain other privileges and facilities for those people. This is a matter in which the provincial authorities are also involved. I have ascertained from the hon. the Minister of Agriculture that there is a committee which is dealing with this matter, and in this particular case, the province of Transvaal is represented on the committee. They have also been informed of the state of affairs so that they may indicate in what way they will be able to help. The problem is, of course, whether one should centralize or decentralize, because there are places where buildings and so forth are available. Should one concentrate on those or should one provide even smaller schools at other places? I think we should leave that to the provinces. But it is an important matter which the hon. member raised, and I can give the undertaking even now that when I have taken up my new position I will also look into that, but I do not want to take too much upon me at this early stage. I must first conclude my work in my present post.

The hon. member also referred to prizes for literary works. The amounts appear to be small when one looks at them, but I think we should look a little more carefully. There are other amounts as well which have not been provided for literary work only. Hon. members would be surprised to see the number of requests for assistance received by the department. The department receives requests for assistance from individual artists, from choir groups wishing to go overseas, from people who want to maintain museums, and so on. It may be said that more funds should be made available, but even if fairly adequate funds were made available, some priorities would have to be laid down, so that a little more may be given in some cases and a little less in others. However, I sympathize with what the hon. member said. We seem to be skimping on this, but we must also have regard to other sectors where we are doing work beyond our means.

With this I think I shall conclude for the moment, and I shall reply later to questions put to me by the hon. member for Durban Central and other members.

Mr. Chairman, it is no easy matter for an ordinary member of the House to continue a debate after the hon. the Minister has spoken at such length, in such great detail and in such an interesting way. I think I may say on behalf of all hon. members who heard him that we are particularly impressed with his handling of the matter here today, for example that he was able to deal in such a calm and well-reasoned way with the question of the salaries of teachers. Then he proceeded to making a lyrical speech on the role of education and training, matters which all of us have at heart. I feel very proud of the fact that the hon. the Minister has been appointed as the Administrator of the Transvaal, because as a former education man he knows a great deal about education and has a very good understanding of the matter. There is no doubt that he will be a great success in the province where education is a very important aspect of the activities. I wish him every success in his new career.

There is really no need now for the hon. the Minister to listen to me, as he is going to become Administrator of the Transvaal, but I do request the Secretary of the department, Dr. Van Wyk, and his staff to listen.

I should like to make a small contribution by dealing with the advancement of culture. If one reads through the annual report of the Department of National Education, through Education and Culture—the official periodical of the department—and through this year’s budget, one has great appreciation for the work being done by the department in the field of the advancement of culture. As officially stated in the budget the purpose of the advancement of culture is—

Please note, the culture of the White population includes the culture of both the English-speaking and the Afrikaans-speaking sections of the population. Therefore hon. members must not maintain that I am speaking only on behalf of the Afrikaans-speaking people. When I deal with the advancement of culture, I am speaking on behalf of everybody.

That is correct. Culture knows no boundaries.

In the budget, the advancement of culture is given as Programme No. 6 of the activities of the Department of National Education. Under the advancement of culture there are nine subdivisions for which funds are requested for the present financial year. I just want to mention these subdivisions. There is a financial assistance to declared cultural institutions, financial assistance in respect of historical and natural history monuments, provision of literature for the visually handicapped, advice on libraries, promotion of cultural services, youth work and publicity, promotion of cultural relations with foreign countries, language promotion, works of art, and administration. A total amount of R14 105 000 is being appropriated for these subdivisions. This amount for Programme No. 6 constitutes approximately 4% of the total amount appropriated for the Department of National Education, namely R354 million.

I want to single out only one subdivision of the advancement of culture in Programme No. 6 and take a closer look at it. I am now referring to the item “Promotion of Cultural Services, Youth Work and Publicity”, for which an amount of R4 610 000 is being appropriated, or approximately one-third of the funds appropriated for Programme No. 6, Advancement of Culture. The promotion of cultural services, youth work and publicity entails grants, after consultation with the National Cultural Council, for the exchange of producers, prizes for literary works, prizes for the performing arts, protection of artists, publicity, the assimilation of immigrants, the establishment of camps and camping sites, courses, study weeks and grants to scientific, cultural and other societies and associations, non-competitive research periodicals, land service and other youth work, subsidies to campers, grants to the Central Land Service Fund, the promotion of the performing arts, regional councils for the performing arts, community theatres, financial assistance to the Bureau for Scientific Publications and national research periodicals. These are 17 subdivisions of this one subdivision of viz. the promotion of cultural services, youth work and publicity.

We have great appreciation for the work being done in all the above facets, but—and it is of this that I should like the Secretary, Dr. Van Wyk, to take cognizance. I discern a lack of interest in our language and culture on the part of our youth. In my opinion, the modem media such as cinemas and television, do not purposefully do positive work for the advancement of culture. I want to plead that the section charged with the advancement of cultural services should do more to promote love among our people for their own culture and language. Why not can a cultural association be established in every local community or town with the object of promoting language and culture in the community? Local people with some talent can be used to promote this matter considerably. At the smaller towns, the schools and churches can be utilized to take the initiative. The cultural heritage of a nation is a precious one. When one inherits something previous, one not only looks at it often, but one enjoys looking at it, and one appreciates it. It inspires one.

What is happening to our culture today? Is it still part of our inherited spiritual values of which we may justly be proud? I want to remind hon. members of what happened in earlier years. When I was a child—I think the Secretary for National Education and many of the hon. members who sit here will also have experience of that—the local people and, I almost feel inclined to say, the simple talent that was there, advanced the culture in the small community or town. I had the privilege of attending school at a small town up to Std. 8. The present hon. Prime Minister also attended school in the same small town up to Std. 8.

That was in the Free State, was it not?

Yes, it was at Paul Roux in the Free State. That small community of only a few hundred people had a cultural awareness because of the influence of one single teacher, the church and the school there that co-operated to give the community something lasting and valuable. Those people established a cultural association and every quarter, that is to say, every third month, they had a cultural evening which afforded local people the opportunity to present a recitation, a song, a musical performance or a dramatic performance. That was our culture.

Like on a farm school.

It was not a farm school. But in modem society there is a lack of that as a result of the modem media such as the cinema and television which draw our young people and the ordinary people away from the cultural heritage we were used to.

When I lived in that community as a child, there was a Hollander who had come from Holland and settled there, and who had the talent to recite poems. Today, when I read Louis Leipoldt’s poem on Woltemade, I can still see that Hollander in my mind’s eye. He recited that poem so dramatically that one virtually experienced the event oneself. An ordinary woman teacher whom I knew, had the same talent. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the course of my speech I shall associate myself with the words of the hon. member for Maraisburg. He and I are on the same wavelength.

By the way, in consequence of the speech by the hon. member for Standerton, the question has occurred to me—and this is an open question—whether we should not table a motion to reduce the salaries of the hon. members of the Opposition until such time as they have acquired the technique of Oppositionship and we have appointed the hon. member for Standerton as their tutor. We would consider handing over the difference in their salaries to their tutor, the hon. member for Standerton, as tuition fees.

It is pleasant to talk of beautiful things and of fine deeds done by a State department and its officials. In this connection I am referring to the Division for the Advancement of Culture of the Department of National Education. I should like to point out that this division has been decentralized into eight different regions with a regional director at the head of every regional office. These regional directors are doing work that cannot be repaid in rands and cents or by way of words or a verbal expression of thanks. They are the people who have to activate the local voluntary organizations and furnish them with advice. In some cases they must even unobtrusively initiate activities. They are of immense importance in the communities and regions in which they work.

In every region this department has made a start with the establishment of what we call camping sites. There are already 16 of these in our country, and three of them are fairly well developed. Such a camping site in a region is in fact the gathering point of the educational-cultural activities in that region. It becomes the hub where, with the assistance of the regional director, the voluntary organizations hold gatherings of people who take an interest and have to be motivated.

In this regard I have in mind youth camps and leadership camps of Std. 9 and Std. 10 prefects from neighbouring schools, camps held in rural surroundings where the young people can be close to the earth and to nature. It is an experience to mix with 120 young boys and girls in those surroundings and under those circumstances, where those young people have profound discussions on personal matters and on matters of national interest. Having experienced that under those circumstances, one feels that there is hope for the future. These young people return to their various environments with new zest and inspiration. Not only boys and girls, but young people who are already working, get together in this way by means of church youth associations and other church associations, etc. The camping site is, however, also the meeting place of the land service movement. Have hon. members ever been at a camp for 250 primary school pupils, young boys and girls, where a meeting is held and a Std. 4 boy acts as chairman? It is done with such grace. At such a meeting there was absolute discipline, maintained by this young chairman, and he controlled and conducted affairs. That is what happens at these camping sites.

Apart from that, there is the fact that they are again close to nature, close to the earth. At night they sleep in a tent and they can hear the raindrops beating down on it. They can listen to the flapping of the tent when the wind blows. In the morning they can see the sun rise, and in the evening they can see it set.

In this regard I associate myself with the words of the hon. member for Maraisburg. These are the places where our young people should get together, where they can again learn the things that are of lasting value; again acquire certain norms of life.

But these camping sites are not only the meeting places of the land service people— there are also family camps where families gather, away for a week or a weekend from the hustle and bustle of a city existence. Who could ever determine the value of that?

Having said that, I must say that I am concerned about the fact that in our budget for this year, only R100 000 has been appropriated for the development of these camps. In view of what I have just said in connection with these camps, I wish to propose that we should give serious consideration to obtaining an increased contribution in this regard. If only the building of a very, very simple little hall on the camping site costs approximately R60 000, hon. members can understand that very, very little can be accomplished with a budget of R100 000.

In the provinces, we also have a new development now, namely the idea of open-air schools, where pupils are brought together in groups of 50 or 60 in a rural environment, where they follow the ordinary curriculum, but adapted to this new environment in which they find themselves. In this regard I wish to plead that we should not have a duplication of camping sites in the sense that the province should, on its own, develop camping sites, perhaps 8 or 10 km from an existing camping site of the Department of National Education.

I plead in all earnestness that there should be the closest co-operation between the Department of National Education and the various provincial authorities so that these sites and buildings should be fully utilized. The ordinary land service camp, the youth camps, the family camps, normally take place during holidays or weekends, while the open-air schools take place during the week. In this regard we can co-operate admirably with one another and achieve 100% utilization of the capital investment made in those camping sites. I hope and trust that within the foreseeable future we shall find that in every region there will be a fully developed camping site where those open-air activities can be practised to the full.

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Kimberley North will forgive me if I do not follow up what he had to say. I always enjoy his speeches, because he is a man who has good control of his mother-tongue and his descriptive use of the Afrikaans language is always of great pleasure to anybody who listens carefully to the words he uses.

Like many of us have already done today, I also want to say “hello and good-bye” to the hon. the Minister, because no sooner was he with us than he was taken away again.

Hello, Dolly!

I think it is rather unkind to say “Hello, Dolly”. We wish him well in the job that lies ahead of him and we are sorry that he has not had the time to utilize his talents to the full as Minister of National Education. He has a delightful sense of humour, and I particularly appreciated his sense of humour as displayed in his reply to the hon. member for Sandton when he suggested that the Opposition parties and the Government enjoyed an equal measure of time on the SABC and SATV services. I found this a nice little turn of phrase, but I am afraid that we in these benches cannot accept that. We feel that, although the situation has improved somewhat, the SABC is still undeniably slanted. Let us, however, give credit where credit is due. The radio service is nevertheless good, and the radio services do cater for most, if not all, tastes. The programme “Current Affairs” is still a glaring example of nothing other than a blatant slant. Against this one must weigh the report on Parliament which is broadcast each morning. The report is a balanced, well-edited, well-presented and a factual programme. It is a pity that there are not more such programmes. I therefore say that our radio service is generally a good service which offers alternatives in programme selection—if one does not like what one is listening to on one band, one can always go to another; one has a choice of services one can listen to. I think the service has set certain standards for itself, and it seeks to maintain those standards because it has competition. The radio services of the SABC are in what one might call the international market in that they have to compete with radio services that are being beamed into South Africa.

Having said that about radio services, let us look at the ugly sister or, should I say, “die lelike breeder”.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member for Bellville knows exactly what I mean when I use that terminology. I am saying “breeder” in the ugliest possible sense of the word, because it is “big ‘breeder’ ”.

It is not so.

South African Television has a super slant. Once again, however, we must give the devil his due: It is improving. I am sorry to say, however, that it does not always reflect a true cross-section of South African opinion; but it does reflect NP opinion and it also propagates NP policy and ideologies.

Vause also appears often on television.

“Vause” is pretty good on television.

Every time, when he supports the Government.

I am not ranting and raving this year as I have done in the past, but I want to make a sincere appeal to all those who sit in that tower at Auckland Park to “play the game”. I simply cannot accept that it is coincidental that at the provincial by-election in Swellendam, for example, the night before the voters go to the polls, television is there to present the hon. the Prime Minister speaking at his wind-up meeting. [Interjections.] That is not coincidence or happenstance. [Interjections.] Why did my hon. leader not also appear on television then? [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, that was a political meeting. [Interjections.]

Order! This is not a political meeting.

Well, let us talk a little about politics. [Interjections.] Those gentlemen must not try to tell me that the outside broadcasting truck incidentally happened to be at Swellendam just then. I want to appeal to those gentlemen in their ivory tower to be more balanced in their programme content and in their programme presentation. I want to ask them please to select their discussion panels more carefully. I think this is a subject that was dealt with by the hon. member for Sandton. I want to appeal to them not to use SATV as a propaganda medium. They should not think that the South African public are fools and are gullible. They are not.

That is why they vote for the NP.

Very well, that is why they vote for the NP. However, they are not going to be fooled all the time. Furthermore, the SABC should take heed of the outcries against them when this powerful medium is abused. Let us refer to the annual report of the SABC. On page 61 mention is made of the SABC and political reporting. I quote—

That is what is contained in the report.

I should now like to go on by dealing with programmes. I started more than a year ago to collect newspaper cuttings of criticisms of programmes, as well as letters to newspapers. I had to give up, because the files became too unwieldy. I would have had to use a wheelbarrow to bring them into this House if I was to speak to them. They say television is a conversation stopper. SATV is not. It is the opposite. We need more programmes like “Matawani’s Gold”. That was the programme in which that voice monotonously said: “Things were going badly for the Boers.” Another one is “99 Caroline Street”. Then there are also those appalling, 30-year old movies shown to us on Saturday evenings. We need only more of those programmes to ensure that the art of conversation will never die in South Africa, because as those programmes come on, one turns off the television.

That is correct.

More imagination is needed in the selection of programme material, and I believe the time has come that an advisory body should be set up to convey the views of the people to the moguls in the ivory tower.

What about a market research?

Oh, how lovely! The hon. member for Florida; bless his heart. [Interjections.] Bless him for asking that.

To reply, I want to quote further from the report—

It goes on to say what the findings were. It also says that in this manner 135 programmes were researched during the year. The average appreciation index, measured on a 100 point scale, for all these programmes was 55. Just before this, the report states—

Two million people. Yet, the market research covers only 2 000, something which, in my language, is one-tenth of 1% of the viewers. Now, who would call that a research?

Do not reveal your ignorance of statistical methods.

My friend, do not display your ignorance.

The hon. the Prime Minister referred to the streamlining of the Civil Service. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I merely rise to give the hon. member for Umhlanga the opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon. Whip on that side of the House. The hon. the Prime Minister referred to the streamlining of the Civil Service coupled with greater measures of consultation and co-operation with the private sector. Here is an ideal opportunity to put this admirable thought into effect. There is a widespread dissatisfaction with programmes and it is being completely ignored by the SABC.

The public are becoming irritated by their indifference to the constant flow of complaints, complaints by way of letters to the editors of newspapers, etc. Here is an opportunity to apply this co-operation idea of the hon. the Prime Minister through an advisory board which could establish viewers’ requirements and preferences.

As quickly as I can, I want to deal with the subject of dubbing. A common complaint is that the best English programmes are dubbed into Afrikaans. I hear that complaint, as I am English speaking. I admit and accept that dubbing is a very exact art and it is very well done by those who do it. The latest figures indicate that we have 94 translators, 32 dubbing directors, four studios at the SABC and 18 outside studios. This is an army of people rendering this service, a service which is vital because we have two official languages in this country. For the sake of the argument, I should like to examine a particular programme. I refer to “Blitspatrollie” as it is known in South Africa, or “The Sweeney” as it is known in the United Kingdom. Last November I saw an English episode in London and approximately two months later I saw the same episode in South Africa in Afrikaans. The dubbing was first-class. However, the fact of the matter is that one cannot translate English humour into Afrikaans. One cannot even translate “English” humour into English, because the true English humour on the one side of the Atlantic is not understood at all on the other side, in America. Therefore, in the case of that type of programme, featuring two people like Morecombe and Wise, there is no way in which one could effectively translate it into Afrikaans.

I should like to put forward a suggestion whereby we could all enjoy the best of both worlds. It is common cause, and the hon. the Minister will agree, that the vast majority of South Africans are not what one would call completely bilingual. One cannot always pick up a snappy or a softly spoken bit of dialogue in the other man’s language. Very often one loses the thread. I know I do. I lose the thread of a story because of this or because of a particular accent.

It is because you are not bilingual.

The hon. member must not talk nonsense. I am as bilingual as he is.

Let me hear you speak Afrikaans.

I am as bilingual as the hon. member. I made inquiries into the feasibility of my suggestion, which is that dubbing should be put onto a tape and that, instead of its being mixed into the video tape, it should then be allowed to run parallel with that video tape. That sound tape could then be broadcast on, say, a FM frequency over the radio simultaneously with the programme being broadcast on television. In this way the Afrikaans-speaker could turn down the sound of his television set and pick up the soundtrack being broadcast on his radio set, while the English-speaker could listen in the normal way. The reverse could also apply.

I shall give an instance of where this could apply. The other night I saw a programme featuring Jan Spies, who speaks a particular brand of Afrikaans that I enjoy so much. It is the brand of Afrikaans that I know is not from the part of the country where I learnt my Afrikaans, even though the hon. member for Pretoria West says that I am not bilingual. I promise you I am, Sir.

Which part is that?

It is peculiar to the North and North-West Cape and not the Eastern Cape, where one hears this sort of Afrikaans which is “nie gekry nie”. This gentleman—Jan Spies—spoke on postal services. Part of the beauty of that programme to me was the type of Afrikaans he used. The programme was also tremendously interesting. I think the English-speaker, the person who cannot understand Afrikaans, would have wanted to understand that programme, because of its interest. Here we have an Afrikaans programme where we would have had an English soundtrack running simultaneously. Therefore, it works both ways.

They should dub some of those American films that we cannot understand.

Indeed, as my hon. leader says, let them dub some of those American films that none of us can understand. [Interjections.]

I am sorry, but at some stage I have to get to the point of dealing with a person by name. I feel I have a duty to this country to do it I refer to the subject of English TV religious programmes. I am a Christian who resents certain references that have been made to people belonging to the Jewish religion in a rather oblique way by Mr. Bill Chalmers, who I understand is the head of the English programme’s religious services. I shall do no more than ask that this gentleman be spoken to, if need be. He should be told to choose his words with greater care and to remember that our South African society consists not only of Christians, but also of many other religious groups whose convictions should be respected at all times. I say this in all sincerity and in all humility.

He is an anti-Semite who should be fired.

Finally, I want to come to my old hobby-horse, because this debate cannot go by without me getting on to it, and that is the matter of TV licences for pensioners, the aged, and of course deserving institutions such as old age homes. [Interjections.] I shall persevere with this and I shall do it every year until one day some worthy Minister on the other side of the House will stand up and say that he has a new idea, and that is that old age pensioners need no longer pay for TV licences.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Umhlanga again made the hackneyed old statement that the Government receives more attention than the Opposition in the news media, particularly radio and television. We had a debate on this specific matter a year or two ago. We shall never get into the hon. member’s head, nor into that of his party, nor into that of the official Opposition, the fact that what is broadcast over the radio, and what is shown on the television screen, are matters that are newsworthy. The Opposition should accept once and for all that they are not as newsworthy as we are on this side of the House. They should further accept that it is obvious that Government members will appear more often on television and that more news from the Government side will be broadcast over the radio, because the policy of this side of the House is also the policy of the Government, and the various news media must necessarily give attention to it. The hon. member also asked why the hon. the Prime Minister appeared, and not his leader.

That’s it! Why is there no fairness?

It has nothing to do with fairness. The fact is just that the hon. the Prime Minister is newsworthy and that the leader of the hon. member is not newsworthy. [Interjections.]

The hon. member also elaborated on the quality of the English programmes. I do not want to make any comments about that, because I cannot judge the taste of the English-speaking public as well as that of the Afrikaans-speaking public.

As regards the dubbing of programmes I want to tell the hon. member that it is indeed a problem. He should not blame the SABC for having such a large staff. He only mentioned it and did not reproach them for it, but it is essential to have a large staff for the dubbing of programmes. I agree with the hon. member with regard to the question of humour. It is difficult, even for our two language groups which have been co-existing in South Africa for such a long time and who know each other’s language, to perceive the finer nuances of humour. The hon. member should remember, however, that as the income of the SABC increases, the dubbing will probably decrease. That will solve the problem to a large extent.

I should like to wish the hon. the Minister every success in his new office. It is a pity that we have lost him so soon, but I believe that he shall be able to carry on with important work in the interests of education in his new office, too. I hope the hon. the Minister has a method of conveying some of the requests I want to make to him, to his successor. I believe he will be able to deal with some of these requests before accepting his new office, but I should appreciate it if he would pass the remaining ones on to his successor along the correct channels.

Since the emphasis in today’s life is on effective communication, knowledge and information, I want to ask the hon. the Minister to consider, for the sake of good contact, holding discussions with the official representatives of the organized teaching profession annually, at a specific time. I specifically ask that this be done annually, at a specific time. At such an occasion, the problems, the bottlenecks and the policy can be mutually announced and discussed. Discussions and co-operation of such a nature can eliminate much of the misunderstanding which may have arisen and contribute towards strengthening the good relationship which has always existed between the teaching profession and the Government. The institution of annual discussions will also be in line with the increase in the status of the teaching profession to that of a proper profession. Teachers will then have the opportunity to afford their authorized representatives of the organized teaching profession the opportunity to conduct discussions with the hon. the Minister on an co-ordinated basis. Hon. members will note that I use the words “on a co-ordinated basis”. Essential information can then be exchanged at first hand. Experience has shown that co-ordinating measures are of vital importance. They are essential when certain policies are initiated, when planning is done with a view to new or changed conditions of service and also when decisions have to be taken concerning the way in which new measures are to be implemented interdepartmentally.

The dissatisfaction which exists at present among the teaching profession, is mainly in respect of anomalies arising out of the latest salary and post structure for teachers. It seems to me as if these difficulties could have been prevented if there had been a clear understanding on a co-ordinated basis with regard to the uniform application of the present salary scales. It is gratifying that work is already being done along these lines. Representatives of the various departments of education, the Public Service Commission and the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations in South Africa are already being involved in discussions in this regard. In view of the large number of hitches which have not yet been ironed out, it seems to me as if urgent consideration should be given to establishing whether opportunities for proper negotiations and reporting back are being offered to all those involved, from the initial stage to the final stage.

We have the greatest appreciation for the work being done by the National Teacher’s Council. This council was in the first place established to act in an advisory capacity. There should be no doubt about the necessity of the existence of this council, but there is an urgent need to consider the creation of a negotiating body in which all interested parties, the organized teaching profession, departments of education, universities, technicons, the Public Service Commission, and others will be represented. This body will not only have to look at education as a unit, i.e. from the pre-primary to the tertiary level, but will also—and mainly—have to do coordinating work. It will constantly have to unite the loose threads in the educational system so that the ideal of a uniform educational system can be achieved in practice, once and for all. I make this request, because it is important. The statement has often been made from our side of the House—the Government has also made statements in this respect—that teaching should be regarded as the mother profession. Furthermore, we plead stepped-up co-ordination in the application of conditions of service is also advocated. People are grateful for the fact that so much headway has been made in the teaching profession that the various departments of education now provide uniform service conditions. It is clear, nevertheless, that differences between departments are encountered from time to time as regards the implementation of the policy and service conditions. I am not advocating the formation of a single department of education, but only that service conditions should always be applied uniformly. Teachers should be able to move freely from one department to the other, if necessary. However small the differences, they should not constitute a hindrance for the teacher who wants to transfer from one department to the other. The exchange of teachers from one department to another can only lead to sound competition which will be to the benefit of the teaching profession in general. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member for De Aar on his very good speech about the teaching profession. I am sure that the hon. the Minister will pay attention to the very meaningful suggestions he has made in this regard.

I want to come back to the subject which was dealt with by the hon. members for Maraisburg and Kimberley North. In their speeches they created the atmosphere which is characteristic of culture. On this occasion, I wish to focus briefly on a small and apparently humble, but nevertheless important body which falls under the Department of National Education, viz. the South African War Graves Board, a body which has in the past completed laudable tasks and which is still undertaking restoration and preservation work with the very limited funds at its disposal. I think the importance of the work of this board as part of our national educational task is clearly underlined by the fact that the two hon. members on this side of the House, i.e. the hon. member for Virginia and the hon. member for Newton Park, were last year appointed to the board. The War Graves Board was established on 23 March 1967 in terms of section 2 of the War Graves Act of 1967. This afternoon I want to confine myself in particular to the task of the Civilian Graves Committee of this board which has the task of tending graves and laying out gardens of remembrance in honour of civilians and exiles, certain Voortrekkers and those who died in concentration camps. There was a time, not very long ago, when we had to lower our voices somewhat when discussing an event such as the Second War of Independence, a time when it still gave offence when we recalled this part of our history. Fortunately, that is now passing. It has been a part of the history of this country and this people for 80 years now. It is a part of history which is mourned, but it is a proud part of our history as well. Every right-minded South African can be proud of it. One only has to think about the fearless audacity with which a small people at that time survived the onslaught of a world power.

Now, as then, we are facing the threats of a foreign power which threatens the independence of this nation. Surely we are again faced with threats, this time the threats of Russian imperialism. Again there are dark clouds on the horizon. We should display towards our war heroes of old the same degree of unanimous piety and compassion we show today towards our people killed in action, because a nation which attempts to forget its heroes and its past, will be cast onto the scrapheap of history. There is no doubt about that.

Last night on television we saw that we are today erecting memorials and monuments to our people who have died on the borders for the freedom of this republic. I want to ask whether it is not essential and right, too, that we should show the same sense of gratitude towards the men who, 80 years ago, also fought a war of liberation for this country of ours. The injustices perpetrated against this nation 80 years ago, should fill us with the same degree of bitterness as an outrage or an injustice against this nation, committed today by a terrorist I am not necessarily speaking only about Afrikaans-speaking people as the suffering party, but of English-speaking people too, who, even at that time, identified themselves with the ideals, the aspirations and the freedom of a nation. Even then there were English-speaking South Africans who felt as the hon. the Minister of Finance, as an English-speaking person, put it so beautifully last year in a debate in this House when he said that he regarded himself as an English-speaking Afrikaner because he identified with a philosophy of life of a nation. We know that there are thousands of English-speaking people in this country today who feel the same way about these things as he does and who will therefore be very appreciative of the laudable task of the War Graves Board. They will also support me in asking the hon. the Minister for considerably greater financial support for this task so that it can be carried out properly.

If we look for a moment, for example, at the struggle waged in the Northern Transvaal, a struggle which was recorded in books such as that by Dr. J. C. Otto and in documents written by historical researchers of the Northern Transvaal, such as Mr. S. J. Lee and others, one has to admit that particularly in the second phase of the three-year war, some of the worst hardships were experienced in that very area, and that blatant murder and violence took place in some cases.

The only case of which I am aware, is that in which two British officers, one Captain Morant and Lieutenant Handcock were found guilty at the time in a court of law in Pretoria of at least 12 murders and were executed by firing squad on the morning of 26 February 1902 in Pretoria. Some of the civilian graves which attest to these murders are still lying scattered across the whole of the Northern Transvaal, some of them half-forgotten and neglected, and others of which the remains still exist, but which will pass into oblivion within the next decade or two. Still others are situated in the territory of a country which is becoming independent, such as Vendaland or other self-governing Black States. That raises the question whether such graves should not be removed to a central area, for example the concentration camp cemetery terrain at Pietersburg, a terrain where the graves can be properly tended and preserved for posterity, because some historical monuments will otherwise be lost for ever for this country and this nation.

I should like to point out a single example of an historical event which nearly passed into oblivion. In fact, some of the details of this event have already been lost, for example the name and even the site of the grave of a child hero of the Northern Transvaal, but the details of the event have been established beyond any doubt. I want to state briefly what happened. A mother who had to remain on the farm with only the youngest children of the family, sent her little boy of between nine and eleven years of age to carry messages to a Boer commando in the vicinity. However, he was caught through the co-operation of a traitor. This young boy refused absolutely, however, to give anything away or to commit treachery against his country and his nation. He pleaded for his life and explained that he was only carrying out his mother’s orders. His pleas fell on deaf ears, however, and the commander of that patrol shot and killed the boy himself after the British soldiers refused to do so. This boy was the pride of his father and his mother and his heroism is surely the pride of this nation and a part of the cultural historical heritage of this nation. Surely a visible monument should be erected so that this act of heroism can serve as an enduring inspiration for the coming generations.

The concentration camp cemetery at Pietersburg was restored in 1938 after it had nearly disappeared as a result of neglect. In fact, if it had not been restored then, I think few signs of it would have remained today. The local community performed the greater part of this task themselves at the time and are today still maintaining that area largely through their own efforts, with the aid of the town council and youth groups such as the Voortrekkers, who do valuable work, because more than 650 women and particularly children died here over a period of only ten months. Within one month, July 1901, no fewer than 213 deaths were recorded. This makes it the biggest single disaster which we have ever experienced in the Northern Transvaal to this day. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pietersburg has covered a fairly wide field during the course of his speech which dealt with the South African culture and the necessity to preserve any matters that are of historical consequence to South Africa, and we in these benches agree entirely with the point of view he has expressed and we hope that the hon. the Minister will react positively to the suggestions he has made. We have also listened to an interesting discussion on television programmes and I believe that the hon. the Minister of National Education, who undoubtedly has the interests of the young people of South Africa at heart, should also give consideration to approaching the SABC concerning the advertising of liquor and cigarettes, particularly during Saturday afternoon viewing and during the early part of the evening programmes. I do hope that the hon. the Minister will give some indication that it is not in the best interests of our young people to subject them, through the medium of television, to high-pressure advertising, particularly in relation to cigarettes and liquor. As he will know, a large number of the audience are young people.

However, I do not wish to address the Committee any further on this, because I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister the position as far as the Natal University Medical School is concerned. I believe it took something like 30 years before a medical school was established at the Natal University in 1951. We also know that that medical school was established for the prime purpose of having qualified Black doctors become available in South Africa. We know, too, that at the present time there is still an acute shortage of Black doctors in South Africa. Indeed, they number only one per 40 000 of the population. The development of that school has been of great interest and, it has, of course, become an internationally recognized medical school and enjoys a very high reputation indeed. Over the years this medical school has played a very important role in making facilities available for people of the Black race group to qualify as doctors.

We have also seen the establishment of Medunsa at Ga-Rankuwa, which is the Medical University of South Africa which caters for those persons belonging to the Black group who wish to study medicine. Various points of view were expressed—and, indeed, there was a good deal of controversy about it a short while ago—when the Government stated that it was its intention to phase out the admission of Black students at the Natal University Medical School. At this stage I do not wish to involve myself in that controversy in any way, but I do believe that the hon. the Minister and the Cabinet will have to come to a decision very soon as to what the future of that medical school in Natal is to be. Natal is the only province where there is no medical school where White undergraduate students may study. This is cause for a great deal of concern amongst parents and those young people who wish to study medicine. If they are English-speaking, they have to apply for entry at Wits University or the University of Cape Town. The additional costs involved are considerable as far as the parents are concerned, and they have over the years been most anxious to have a medical school in Natal which can cater for them and their children. With the development that has been taking place, it would seem an appropriate time for the hon. the Minister to give favourable consideration to allowing the university to admit undergraduate medical students of all race groups at that medical school. Tremendous facilities are available, for example at the teaching hospital, the King Edward VIII Hospital. There is, indeed, clinical evidence and information available there which people from overseas have come to study. I know that post-graduate study has been permitted at that medical school as far as Whites are concerned. The position of the White undergraduate is one which, I believe, deserves the serious consideration of the hon. the Minister.

The hon. the Minister of Health is present in the Committee today and I am sure that he realizes and knows full well the shortage of doctors that exists in this country. Therefore I believe he would obviously support any attempt to extend the facilities that might be made available to allow all persons who are potential doctors to study medicine. The position is that in recent times there has been a drop in the number of Black students at the medical school of the University of Natal; the latest figures indicate that there are only 27 first-year Black medical students as well as 51 Indians and eight Coloureds. I am sure that it would be possible to extend the facilities at that medical school to provide for an additional intake so that White undergraduate medical students can also be admitted to the University of Natal. Although one is aware of the history of this medical school, it seems ironical that, while we have this university in a White area, catering basically for White students, as far as the medical school is concerned the door has been shut on White undergraduate students wishing to study medicine there. At a time when the Government is moving away from race discrimination, this is surely a practical example of a case where the question of admitting undergraduate students to the medical school of Natal should be left to the university to decide on, with the sanction of the Government, to ensure that all persons of all racial groups will be permitted to study medicine at that medical school. As regards the position at other universities, we know, for example, that members of other race groups are admitted to the University of Cape Town and Wits University. It would therefore appear that the Natal university is one of the only universities where this restriction still exists.

The hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs is also present in the Committee this afternoon. I know that there has been pressure from time to time for the establishment of a separate faculty of medicine at the University of Durban-Westville. I believe this would cost many millions, and at this stage I do not believe it is necessary for a separate medical school to be established at the University of Durban-Westville. I would rather see an extension of the facilities available at the medical school of the University of Natal so that the Indian intake can also be catered for and can continue to be catered for at that medical school. We have facilities and various hospitals catering for the various race groups, all in close proximity to the existing medical school which is situated in Umbilo Road in Durban. There seems to be no reason why the hon. the Minister and the Cabinet cannot give the green light for the admission of White undergraduate students to the medical school of Natal as from 1980. I hope that the hon. the Minister will be able to give this Committee the encouraging news that the final step will be taken to ensure that the White students in Natal will also have the opportunity of studying medicine at a university in their own province.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister listened attentively to what the hon. member for Umbilo said and I know he shall reply to it in an appropriate way.

The Government is being praised to a large extent today for the establishment of an independent radio and television service by the SABC, by means of which our general national economy as well as our national and international relations are being positively promoted. This is a fact, in spite of what hon. members of the Opposition may say. The hon. member for Umhlanga also referred to it, but I shall come back to the arguments of the Opposition later on. I want to take this opportunity to welcome Mr. Swanepoel, the Director-General of the SABC, and Mr. Yssel, the Deputy Director-General, because we are very pleased that they are with us today. We appreciate it very much.

In this regard I should also like to refer to Dr. P. J. Meyer, who is the chairman of the Control Board of the SABC, someone with whom we have come a long way and whose whole aim it is eventually to place the television service on the same high level on which the rest of the services of the SABC already are. We extend our sincere thanks to him for what he has done during his term of office.

Then it is also a very great pleasure to me to congratulate the hon. the Minister very sincerely on his appointment as the Administrator of the Transvaal. Our beloved Transvaal, our very beautiful province, is getting a very handsome man as its Administrator. We are still going to make the whole of the Transvaal Nationalist Just you wait and see. [Interjections.] Yes, hon. members will see it happen. We are still going to do many things there.

We are also indebted to the SABC team under the direction of Mr. Hannes Joubert for the work they do here in Parliament. This is Mr. Joubert’s eighth session here with us. We thank him for the task he performs in giving publicity to Parliamentary proceedings. He gives so much publicity to hon. members on the other side that they have no grounds for complaint. They really receive a great deal of publicity. It is as the hon. the Minister said: Whenever we listen, it is the speech of the hon. member for Orange Grove that can be heard over the radio. One can switch on the radio whenever one likes, and it is the opinions of the hon. member for Orange Grove that one hears. Those hon. members, however, do not know what they want. They receive everything under the sun, but they are still not grateful.

I saw a survey which was made in 1977. During the 1977 election the NP received only 39% broadcasting time, as against the 61% of the Opposition. The NRP received 24%, and the PFP received 24%. The SAP received 5%, and the HNP, 8%. What do hon. members say of that? The NP received only 51% broadcasting time, although it had 51,5% of all the candidates. The Opposition received 49%. [Interjections.] They cannot dispute the facts.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member for Durban Central does not know what he is talking about [Interjections.] Where is the hon. member for Sandton? Where has he disappeared to now? I suppose he has run away. He spoke about the Family Radio and TV magazine. I wonder whether he can tell us whether Punch is published on a profitable basis. Is it profitable to publish Punchi. The hon. member must tell us these things. We want to know them. Perhaps he has the profit and loss statement of Punch available.

What periodical can exist if it is not ultimately sponsored? I think the SABC used to have a periodical that was not profitable. Now the SABC has a periodical that is in fact profitable, and then the hon. member for Sandton kicks up a fuss about it. I do not know what is going on with him.

Surely the hon. member cannot become annoyed if he is not selected to a panel which discusses sport on television. Even in Swellendam his candidate only came third. They are simply not sportsmen, are they? [Interjections.] What justification can the hon. member for Sandton then have for saying that he also wants to serve on a panel? I think the biggest “sports” of all time took place in Swellendam. [Interjections.] On the one hand, there was the harvest-time in Swellendam, something which should really have been recorded for the television service. On the other hand, it was the shearing season in Beaufort West. What a rich harvest of national products there was!

I now want to come to the man who perhaps receives the most publicity. I am of course speaking about the man in the PFP who receives the most publicity. Yes, those hon. members can glare at me as much as they like. [Interjections.] The man who gets most publicity in the PFP, is the hon. member for Yeoville. Today he is again engaged in television interviews. Where is he? He has been photographed all day long, saying: “Opskud kêrels!” [Interjections.] Whenever he is photographed for television, all we hear is: “Opskud kêrels!” That is how we hear him on Monitor, on whatever programmes we listen to, even on the children’s programmes. [Interjections.] Everywhere we just hear the hon. member for Yeoville with his “Opskud kêrels!” [Interjections.]

I now want to refer to the survey which was made by the 1820 Settlers’ National Monument Foundation. What did they find with regard to television? According to them, 42% of the English-speaking people in South Africa said that the television service was the most objective source on political matters. Only 31% of them said that the English-language Press was more reliable. [Interjections.] The Department at Journalism of Rhodes University found, according to a survey, that television was the most reliable political medium. The radio was second and the Press was third on the list Now there is the Advocate-General Bill as well. According to market research it was found that 55% of the Whites, 50% of the Coloureds and 31% of the Asians regarded the SABC news as more reliable than the Press. It is the most wonderful organization there is and we are very grateful for all these things.

I want to discuss the Sunday evening programmes. That is one of the big problems which we and the SABC are experiencing. There is a difference of opinion among the clerical as well as the non-clerical public. It is a pity that it is the case, because there are such beautiful programmes and presentations on Sunday evenings.

There are beautiful documentaries on missionary work in Malawi, and the “Land van die Bybel” of Prof. Anna Neethling-Pohl. “Ligstraaltjies uit die Bybel,” with the cheerful voice of Bettie Kemp is especially for the children. It is very good. Then there is also “Tick-tock Time” which is appreciated by a wide circle of children and their parents. I am also aware of the very good programme “Crossroads”, which is presented by Wendy Leith. It is just a very great pity that this programme is now being broadcast only once and not twice a month as in the past. I know that older and younger people in particular often watch it.

The question arises how we can make the Sunday evening programmes a little more attractive. I want to plead today that the SABC should consider whether the radio cannot offer a news service on Sunday evenings, similar to the one which is broadcast on Sunday mornings. There are excellent news items which can be discussed. I am thinking of church consecration services, ecclesiastical events and social events of which the SABC does take cognizance, but which they cannot present during the week. I am in possession of a few bulletins by means of which I want to show which news items could be presented. We could for instance, present a programme on the subject of President Neto’s statement that he expected that in 20 years’ time there would be no churches left in Angola. He also said that no party member could be a member of a church and that no church member could be a member of the party. I am thinking, for instance, of the Rhodesian Archbishop who said that if a Marxist government were to come into power in Rhodesia, that would only be a foretaste of what would lie ahead for Central Africa if the West did not fulfil its responsibility. I am thinking of Idi Amin of Uganda who abolished Sundays when he instituted the Moslem day of rest in its place. There are wonderful news items which could be presented. Could we not have such a presentation?

I want to praise the church for the work which it is doing in this regard. I am referring here to the latest edition of Die Kerkbode in which gratitude is expressed to the SABC. The magazine states—

Television is the window of our church, a very important window.

I am also very grateful that I can announce at this stage what the Director-General said about the statements made by the staff association of the SABC in respect of the Advocate-General—

He went on to say that the staff association represented only 18% of the White staff members of the SABC. We are very grateful that this reaction became known today.

We feel that the television should be the window on the world. Television is the window on the world as it is at present By means of the television camera, the environment can be presented so much more attractively. I want the television not only to be regarded as an extension of the radio, but that it should also rely on another dimension to add to comment in its own way. There should not be long panel discussions, but shorter panel discussions. The camera lens should explore the outdoors. A well-known English author said—

I know that the SABC has the staff to do so. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is always very pleasant to be the next speaker after the hon. member for Rosettenville. I want to associate myself with what he said with regard to a few matters concerning the programmes on Sunday evenings. I am grateful for the fact that we in South Africa, which is a Christian country and in which the truths of Christianity are professed, still observe our Sabbaths as we do at present. I personally have much appreciation, too, for the Afrikaans and English programmes which are presented on Sunday evenings. I also want to agree with the hon. member that a news service on Afrikaans and English ecclesiastical matters would be very good and interesting. I want to associate myself with that, and I trust that the hon. the Minister will give favourable attention to the hon. member’s request.

Next, I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his appointment as the Administrator of the Transvaal. The hon. the Minister and I have known each other for a long time, and I think the Transvaal is particularly fortunate to get someone like him as its Administrator. Overvaal is situated in the constituency of Rissik, and I want to welcome the hon. the Minister most heartily to Overvaal in advance. I want to say, too, that the teaching profession’s loss is going to be the Transvaal’s gain. I want to welcome him and his attractive, friendly spouse to in the Transvaal. Although the hon. the Minister was born in the Cape Province, we know that he is a good Transvaler. After all, most Transvalers originate from the Cape Province.

Now I want to refer to two other matters. In the first place, I want to refer to reports which appeared in the Rand Daily Mail of Monday, 21 May. I want to take two matters from those reports. In a report under the heading “Motlana slams verkrampte students”, a report in which Dr. Motlana referred to Afrikaans universities, the following was said—

Dr. Motlana went on to say—

I do not want to devote a great deal of attention to this statement of his. I want to say here today, however, and I think that the Black people of Africa should know and realize this, that the White man, the Caucasian, brought values and civilization to Africa. I think that in particularly the southern part of Africa, like Rhodesia and South Africa, Afrikaans-speaking and English-speaking Whites brought only the best of the Western civilization to the Black people of Africa and, more specifically to those of Southern Africa. When I speak of my own people, I want to tell hon. members that in my opinion this is one of the most unfair points of criticism which a Black man has ever expressed in respect of the Afrikaners, and what amazes me, is that the Rand Daily Mail has as yet not adopted an attitude anywhere in respect of this. Africa will never be able to grow and prosper if it does not want to accept the best of what the White man brought to Africa and make the best use of it. It is a great pity, and I can understand the Rand Daily Mail not having reacted to it as yet up to now.

On the same page of the Rand Daily Mail a report appears under the heading “English education causes grave concern” in which Prof. H. N. Boyce, the chairman of the Transvaal Teachers’ Association, discusses the problems he is experiencing because of the fact that there is not a sufficient number of English-speaking teachers. The report reads, inter alia, as follows—

I have much appreciation for what Dr. Boyce said, for the appreciation which he expressed to the Afrikaners. I agree with him that we do not want to have mother-tongue education only, that education should not be vested in one’s own cultural milieu only and that it is a pity that we have this want within the English-speaking community, but I have appreciation for his approach.

Next I want to come back to the PFP, which was conspicuous by its absence in this debate. Over the past few days, the following occurred in the Transvaal Provincial Council—

Have hon. members ever witnessed such a contrast of the truth in South African politics? The policy of the PFP for the whole of Southern Africa is to have one Government with one system of education. Every facet of the way of life of the various people must be similar. Here, however, the PFP goes even further than advocating the removal of Afrikaners from English-medium schools. There is not even a vestige of sympathy for what Afrikaans-speaking people have done.

Where do you get that from?

That hon. member apparently does not read newspapers, because he does not even know what is going on with the PFP in the Transvaal. Peter Nixon in the Transvaal objects to the fact that there are Afrikaans-speaking people in English-medium schools. The PFP is the party which does not believe in ethnicity, the party which does not believe in mother-tongue education.

Where do you get all this nonsense from?

I simply quoted what was said by one of their members of the provincial council in the Transvaal. I quoted what Mr. Peter Nixon, a member of the PFP in the Transvaal, said. I want to ask the hon. the Chief Whip whether he differs from Mr. Nixon in this regard. It is not the Afrikaans-speaking members of the PFP in South Africa who are looking after the interests of the Afrikaner. It is not the Myburghs, the Van der Merwes and the Marais’s who are sitting over there. Nor is it the Bamfords and the Eglins who are looking after the interests of the English-speaking people in South Africa. It is rather the Pages, the Vause Raws and the Durrs who will look after the interests of the English-speaking people. This attempt to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds is typical of the type of thing we get from the PFP. I think it has become essential for the English-speaking Whites in South Africa to know that the PFP does not care at all for the values of the English-speaking world in Southern Africa.

That is correct.

In the same way, I, as an Afrikaner, know that the PFP does not care at all about the values of the Afrikaner. I think it is a disgrace that the PFP has no concept and appreciation of what is going on in the teaching profession. The PFP has no concept of or appreciation for what the Afrikaner is doing. But now they sanctimoniously plead the case of the English-speaking people in South Africa. I think we in South Africa shall have to make a more detailed analysis of the policy of the PFP.

That would be a good thing.

I want to continue by saying …

You understand absolutely nothing about it.

I take as little notice of that hon. member as I take of his party. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is my privilege to be the next speaker after the hon. member for Rissik since he has just dealt so effectively with the official Opposition in this debate. I do not want to say much about the official Opposition, but it is very clear to me that they have different policies in the Transvaal and in the Cape Province. The hon. member for Rissik dealt with the education situation in the Transvaal. I want to shed some light for hon. members on the conditions prevailing in Natal in the field of education.

Before coming to that, I want to add my congratulations to those conveyed by other hon. members to the hon. the Minister on his promotion. We are very proud of him and we believe that his appointment is a major gain for the Transvaal. My colleague in the Natal caucus, the hon. member for Eshowe, has also been promoted, and he is to become the Administrator of Natal. We also want to wish him strength for his task. He has rather a difficult task in this province, and I shall indicate in a moment just why that is so.

The education of the child should at all times be an important consideration. It depends on co-operation between the parent, the teaching staff and the Department of Education. We greatly appreciate the work being done in Natal by the Department of Education and the teachers. Everything, however, should be in the best interests of the child, and the intervention of the Executive Committee of Natal is most definitely detrimental to the education of the child in Natal, as I shall try to indicate. There are various factors in Natal which have a restricting or hampering effect on education. In the first place, there is the lack of an Afrikaans training centre for secondary teachers, in other words, an Afrikaans university for Natal. In the second place, we have the intervention of the Executive Committee of Natal in the educational affairs of the province.

Surely that is not true.

As far as the Afrikaans university is concerned, it is a fact that Afrikaans-speaking parents send their children to RAU and the Universities of Pretoria, Potchefstroom, Bloemfontein or Stellenbosch. The majority of the Afrikaans speaking parents in Natal do not send their children to the University of Natal, for obvious reasons. Much of our best brain power in the province is lost because the students attend other universities and do not return to the province. We feel that the province and education are suffering as a result.

The province is growing rapidly and it has the growth points of Richards Bay, Newcastle, Durban and Pietermaritzburg. As far as the ideal of obtaining an Afrikaans university is concerned, we are not going to accept “no” as an answer. We have already progressed to the extent of having a farm bordering on the municipal area of Ladysmith made available for that purpose by Mr. Thys Jacobsz, a millionaire farmer in the district. The whole of his estate has also been earmarked for that purpose. Tremendous enthusiasm also exists in Natal for that project and amounts of money are donated spontaneously by the public. A committee working in this direction has been in existence for a number of years. We shall even accept this institution initially being a satellite campus of the University of the Orange Free State. So much as regards the Afrikaans university for Natal.

Now I want to come to the intervention of the Executive Committee of Natal in the educational affairs of the province. I want to point out that the policy of the Executive Committee of Natal has an inhibiting effect on the education of the child in the province.

Prove it.

In the first place, Natal is the province with the largest number of exclusively English-medium high schools in South Africa. I want to point out that two-thirds of the pupils in Natal receive their training through the medium of English and that one-third receive it through the medium of Afrikaans. Although it is the province with the largest number of English-medium high schools, it was the policy of the Executive Committee for years that all high schools in the urban complexes should be exclusively English-medium high schools and that all high schools in the rural areas should be parallel-medium schools. The situation arose there that all schools in the rural areas were parallel-medium schools up to 1975. For instance, in a place like Vryheid our experience was that after one high school had become too large—and 80% of its pupils were Afrikaans speaking and only 20% English speaking—we could still not succeed in having an Afrikaans-medium high school established there. In 1975, however, the protest movement of the parents became very strong. When a second high school was planned for the town, the Natal Department of Education wanted to make that school a parallel medium school as well. They wanted to halve that small percentage of English-speaking pupils as well. That was the situation up to 1975. After one school in the rural areas of Natal was declared an Afrikaans-medium school in 1975, other schools in Newcastle, Richards Bay and on the South Coast were declared Afrikaans-medium schools as well. Hon. members can ask the hon. member for South Coast for how many years they battled to get an Afrikaans-medium school there.

As hon. members know, the appointment of school principals in Natal is the prerogative of the Executive Committee. They take the final decision on the appointment of principals. It has happened on occasion that when the Director of Education has recommended a principal, the Executive Committee has decided otherwise.

Give us examples.

It happened in Pietersburg, for instance, that the Executive Committee appointed a principal without its having consulted the Director of Education in respect of the appointment, but the result was an absolute fiasco. It is a known fact that the school principals of the Natal Department of Education in the rural areas after the war years were men, virtually without exception, who had been selected and appointed by the Executive Committee and who supported the policy of the then United Party. I also want to say that the advisory committees in Natal have absolutely no powers. They are collectors of money. They have absolutely no say in the appointment of a principal of their choice at a certain school. In the old days they were not allowed to make any recommendations. Now they are allowed to say with which requirements a principal has to comply, but they are not allowed to say who should be appointed. That is how the situation is in Natal at present.

Now I want to refer to the provision of educational facilities. I want to point out to hon. members that there is an over-supply of educational facilities in the urban complexes where this Executive Committee is at the helm, whereas there is a shortage of facilities in the rural areas where our people are. Very recently the Executive Committee purchased in secret the St Charles College—a private school which had fallen into disuse because it was unable to attract students any longer—for the Department of Education. When this came to light and they were attacked about it, they hid behind the hon. the Minister of National Education and said that they had consulted the Minister about it. He had ostensibly recommended that they purchase that historical school for an amount of R1 million, and that while there was a shortage of educational facilities and opportunities in the rural areas.

Let us now take a look at whether they always heed the recommendations of members of the Cabinet or even those of the hon. the Prime Minister. The hon. the Prime Minister recently gave the Executive Committee of Natal very good advice. Now I want to refer to the reaction of the chairman of the Natal Provincial Council to this advice given by the hon. the Prime Minister. I quote what the chairman of the Natal Provincial Council said—

He said that in the past private secretaries had written letters on behalf of the hon. the Prime Minister and he objected to the fact that the hon. the Prime Minister had written them a personal letter. I quote further—

[Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Vryheid will pardon me for not reacting directly to his speech. I just want to say that in Natal principals are chosen on a basis of merit and not because they are good NP supporters. [Interjections.]

Today I should like to discuss a matter with the hon. the Minister which concerns admission to a technikon. It concerns the daughter of a prominent member of the Indian community of Uitenhage, one Mr. Kooverjee. This man has two sons. One is a doctor in Cape Town and the other is a pathologist in America. He also has two daughters. The one is a medical technologist. The other daughter has been struggling for more than six months to be enrolled at the technikon in Port Elizabeth as a student in pharmacy. As long ago as 10 November 1978 Miss Kooverjee was accepted as a student on condition that she obtained the necessary permission from the Department of National Education. On 29 November Mr. Kooverjee was notified that his daughter’s application had been referred to the Secretary of the Department of National Education for consideration. On 22 January this year he was informed that his daughter’s application had failed as the diploma in pharmacy was to be phased out of the syllabi of the technikon. This might in fact be the plan for the future, but 15 White students were admitted to the same course this year. In any event, subsequent to this, the matter was brought to the attention of the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs in writing on 1 February this year and the application was once again referred to the Department of National Education. According to Mr. Kooverjee he has not received any answer as yet. A spokesman of the technikon said that it was the policy of the institution to accept students of any race group provided they satisfied the requirements for admission, had followed the correct procedure and had obtained the necessary permission. He also said that Miss Kooverjee satisfied all the academic requirements, but had not received the necessary permission from the department and that the matter consequently was out of the hands of the technikon. Mr. Kooverjee feels that his daughter is being discriminated against and I agree with him. For that reason I want to ask the hon. the Minister to ensure that discrimination of this nature will not be allowed in future.

†Mr. Chairman, last year during the debate on this Vote I dealt with the question of the conditions relating to the education of that group of children known as gifted children. I think that the debate we had last year was an interesting one and I think that the comments that were made indicated that this is an aspect which is being looked at by the hon. the Minister. This year I should like to go to the other end of the scale, if I may, and raise with the hon. the Minister the question of the group of children whom one could refer to as children with learning disorders, whether those learning disorders be occasioned by the fact that the children are hyper-active or by their having difficulty in concentrating, and consequently having difficulty with their studies. Amongst the uninitiated such children are often referred to as problem or backward children and it is a pity that they are thus described because nothing could be further from the truth. Very often these children are of above average intelligence and, with the correct remedial training, can very quickly attain the same standard as children of their age group. If they are sympathetically dealt with and spend a period in a special school, they can re-join their colleagues at normal schools and continue and finish their education in those normal schools thereafter. However, if an early diagnosis of these children with learning disorders is not made, it would appear that they stand a very high chance of developing into real problem children; and if they are not dealt with appropriately, they can very easily go on to become juvenile delinquents. It is imperative that, if the parent or the pre-primary school teacher notices that a child is experiencing a problem in this regard, the child be sent to an assessment centre. Facilities should then be made available for him to receive the special kind of tuition that is needed to get him to the stage where he can go back to a normal school.

As I have said, such children often have high IQ’s and are merely suffering from adjustment problems and need to be treated in such a way that their powers of concentration are improved so that they can take their places alongside their colleagues in normal schools.

There are two aspects to this question of children with learning disorders. One of these is the aspect of the treatment with drugs, an issue I shall not discuss today because I think it falls more properly under a health debate. We are aware, however, that many of the problems these children undergo are as a result of an imbalance of neurotransmitters in the brain. We know that the two pathways, adrenergic and cholinergic, require a very fine balance for people to go through life as normal citizens. Some of these children show a clear imbalance in the neurotransmitters, and do require drug treatment. I shall not, however, take that aspect any further.

Current research throughout the world has indicated that as simple a factor as normal daily diets can also, to a very large extent, affect the capacity of children—they need not necessarily be young children; they can be high school children as well—to concentrate and learn in the same easy manner in which 90% of their colleagues are able to do so. In this respect I would merely mention two foods, i.e. foods rich in fish, and chocolates. It is well-known that some of the children who experience the more severe problems, can be absolutely normal until they ingest a quantity of one of those foods, or one of a wide variety of other such foods. Within a very short space of time such children can then become completely changed personalities. Fortunately, with the knowledge we have today of food values and the amines in foods, one can recommend a specific diet to these children to enable them to avoid the problems which result from the ingestion of certain of these amine-rich foods. I should like to pay tribute here this afternoon to the work that has been done in this regard at a very well-known institution, which happens to be in Durban, i.e. the Phoenix School. This school is well-known throughout the Republic because of the pioneering work that it has done in this field under its director, the child psychologist Dr. Logue. I think they enjoy the support of families throughout the Republic because of the very advanced facilities they are able to offer children that fall in this group of children with learning disorders. I should therefore like to make a plea to the hon. the Minister that institutions like this be accorded more financial support than they are currently getting. The classes in a school like this are small and the teacher-pupil ratio is such that the teacher has a small class and the children are able to get personalized attention, are able to be monitored carefully and can be helped individually and personally. This sort of thing, however, costs a great deal of money and very often, as in the case of the Phoenix School, they have to do most of their fund-raising themselves.

In the minute left to me, I would like to direct a plea to the hon. the Minister in regard to television services, and to one specifically. When a specific issue affects us, it very often happens that the Minister in charge gets good coverage for his statement on the issue. Various bodies such as the Chamber of Commerce and other bodies in industry are also able to comment. I want to recall the question of the fuel announcement earlier this year when the hon. the Minister’s statement was fully covered on TV, as well as the comments of the Chamber of Commerce and leaders in industry, while not a single Opposition MP was quoted on the news services. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I have some knowledge of the Kooverjee case to which the hon. member for Berea referred. I know that Die Oosterlig, a Port Elizabeth newspaper, took up that matter. However, I do not have sufficient knowledge to react to it any further. With regard to the sympathy expressed by the hon. member with the children who are experiencing problems with their studies, I want to say that this is a matter of deep concern to all of us. With regard to that aspect he has my wholehearted support.

The uninformed would be inclined to think that the Department of National Education is fundamentally or exclusively concerned with education and universities. However, it is only when one has examined the department’s annual report that one ascertains the tremendous scope of this department’s activities. Then only does one have more respect for this department and its officials.

Consequently I can also understand why the department saw fit to provide a schematic presentation of its activities in its report on page 24. This makes very interesting reading. Inter alia, one finds that the department has nine separate branches, each of which is subdivided into several divisions. However, bearing in mind the extremely important role played by libraries in the field of culture and education—indeed probably in all fields—it is of course to be expected that the library services will enjoy an exceptional amount of attention in the activities of this department.

As a component of the Cultural Advancement branch with all its co-ordinating and advisory bodies, one finds the National Library Advisory Council and the Co-ordinating Committee for Library Services for non-Whites, all of which are doing their own work. Among the statutory bodies to which recognition has been granted, we find the State library in Pretoria, the South African Library in Cape Town and the South African Library for the Blind in Grahamstown. These three libraries render services at a national level and operate in association with a variety of other statutory bodies, inter alia, the SABC, the National Film Board, the S.A. War Graves Board, various museums and various art collections, and even with the National Zoological Gardens of South Africa in Pretoria. Without offending other bodies in any way, I want to advocate that, in the allocation of subsidies, the department should constantly bear in mind the special purchasing requirements of the libraries, particularly with regard to the purchasing requirements of the Library for the Blind to which I have already referred.

Then there is also the independent separate Library Services branch of the department, with its head office library and separate departmental libraries. Apart from the assistance this department renders to the various Government departments, it also assists State-aided libraries, school libraries, college libraries, etc. I also want to refer in particular to the assistance this department is rendering to the libraries of various Black States, inter alia, the Transkei and Bophuthatswana, and a few others, as well. Certain librarians of the department have been seconded to the Black States concerned for a considerable time.

Since we are now on the topic of libraries, I should like to avail myself of the opportunity—and I think I am doing so on behalf of all other hon. members—to thank the Chief Librarian and the staff of our own Parliamentary library for the exceptionally diligent, brisk and friendly service they are making available to us.

But I should like to focus the spotlight on the S.A. Library for the Blind in particular. When we consider the extent to which a library can open up and has already opened up the world to each of us, we can also realize to what a tremendous extent the Library for the Blind must open up the world to the visually handicapped. I am proud of the fact that that library originated in Grahamstown, and did so as a result of the diligence of the late Miss Jossie Woods, who, with 100 braille volumes and between 20 and 30 readers, began to present this service from her own home in 1919. I am proud that this library is still based in Grahamstown, and I want to express the hope that it will never be removed from there. Consequently I am also pleased that the department recently made new buildings available in which that library can expand even further. That library is controlled by a board of which the various members stay in Grahamstown itself. The board acts under the supervision of the Department of National Education. Just like the control boards of other institutions, this board also deserves praise for the work it is doing, as well as for the responsibilities it has taken upon itself without receiving any remuneration for its task. Indeed, I want to express the hope that the board’s autonomy will not be restricted in any way. In addition I want to ask that this board’s autonomy be expanded as confirmation of the confidence the department has had up to now in the board as well as the boards of other similar bodies. This confidence has indeed been earned by years of dedicated diligence. I believe that strict decentralized and bureaucratic control will result in the forfeiture of the essential flexibility, adjustability, inspiration, enthusiasm, loyalty etc. That is why I am pleading for even greater recognition and autonomy for local boards.

Approximately 10 years ago this library was converted into a national library which received a subsidy from the State to cover part of the costs. I should just like to take a quick look at a few of the figures to ascertain whether the taxpayer has in fact received value for his money. If one compares the 1967-’68 figures—the year just before the Government became involved—with the 1978-’79 figures, one finds that the staff increased by 77%, the book stores by 183%, the issues by 240% and the number of readers by 210%. During the same period the subsidy was increased by 105%. If depreciation caused by the inflation rate is taken into account, the increase in the library’s allocation is in actual fact considerably less than 105%. In this period the Braille book supply increased from 23 100 to 32 567. The number of audio-cassettes increased from 1 400 to 18 785. The issues increased from 20 240 units to 68 630 units, but periodicals are not included in this figure. The n oer of visually handicapped served, rose from 615 to 1 850. I think that if one looks at these figures, one can say with confidence that the State has indeed received value for its money in the library for the Blind at Grahamstown.

At this stage special recognition should be given to the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. The Post Office is prepared to handle an enormous number of postal articles for this library free of charge. If it were not for this trust and friendly assistance by the Post Office, this library would not have been doing so well. I am pleased that the hon. the Minister who is involved in this, is present to be able to hear that we are still indebted to him. We trust that we shall have reason to remain grateful to him in future.

I should briefly like to outline certain points with regard to the library. All population groups are served by the library. The number of Black readers has increased tremendously, the readers of Braille in particular. The library also serves the blind in neighbouring States such as Rhodesia, Botswana, Swaziland, Lesotho, Transkei and Bophuthatswana. I am pleased to be able to say that there is very good international cooperation. The library has representation on various international committees. The director of the library has attended international congresses. Fortunately, when special study material is required for students, there is also very good co-operation by countries such as America, England, the Netherlands and Germany in making material available. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Albany on a very interesting speech. It was necessary for him to focus our attention once again on the excellent work being done by the Library for the Blind.

He also referred to the large variety of tasks that are the responsibility of the Department of National Education. I want to dwell on one of its important tasks, viz. the advancement of culture.

One can hardly conceive of any nation or community that does not attach great value to its cultural heritage. A very important facet of a nation’s culture is the cultivation of the arts, and particularly the performing arts such as drama, ballet, opera and music. Now I wish to crave your attention for the needs and problems of the performing arts, particularly with reference to the very interesting report published by the Niemand Commission of Inquiry into the performing arts which was tabled in this House earlier this year.

As a result of the small White population of South Africa and the fact that it is scattered over vast distances in South Africa, the State has in the past had to render financial assistance to ensure a flourishing artistic life, and continues to do so, today. We are all aware of the fine work that has been done since 1962 by the four provincial regional boards for the performing arts, viz. Pact, Capab, Pacofs and Napac. These four regional boards can only function with State subsidization. As a result of the increasing needs for facilities and monetary support for the performing arts, the commission to which I referred was appointed to institute an inquiry into the general policy to be followed in order to place the development of the arts on a sound foundation.

One of the most important findings of the commission was, in my opinion, that the arts in our country are too dependent on foreign artists. South Africa does not have enough of its own singers, its own directors, its own orchestral musicians, its own actors and actresses and its own ballet dancers to meet its own requirements. What is more: We do not have a sufficient number of skilled persons to train our own artists to that level themselves.

I believe that this problem can only be solved in the long term, but we should set about this task in far greater earnest. I should like to suggest for consideration that we should, as the commission also found, begin at the bottom with this task, viz. with our children. The teaching has to begin with our children if we ever want our own orchestral musicians, actors and actresses, ballet dancers, etc. That is why one should have the highest appreciation for the start that has been made in this regard by the Transvaal and Free State departments of education.

A few years ago a start was made in the Transvaal with the establishment of extracurricular art centres attached to primary and secondary schools. There are already 114 of these centres in existence throughout the Transvaal. These centres are under the direct control of the principals and the training is extra-curricular. In other words, parents also have to pay class fees for their children’s training. The department of education does pay the salaries of the teachers concerned and they also assist with musical instruments and theatrical equipment, but no physical amenities such as class-room space, etc. is provided by the department or the authorities. Consequently schools have to make use of existing facilities such as class-rooms and their own school halls in order to accommodate these centres. Of course this means that the major portion of the training in these centres has to be provided after school hours, i.e. in the late afternoon or early evening. I want to state that these centres have already proved to be of inestimable value in the places where they have been established. In the rural areas in particular they have been an unprecedented success because they met a very strongly felt need in the rural areas. The rural areas are far removed from large urban centres where there are regular presentations in fine venues and in other amenities.

I had the privilege of being very closely involved in the establishment of the art centre at the Ermelo High School. At present that centre has a teaching staff of 16 and serves 627 pupils from 16 different schools all over the south-eastern Transvaal. At present music and ballet training is being provided at that centre, but in future we shall also have to add a drama section, because music and ballet teachers are not really in a position to present an opera or an operetta properly. One needs drama teachers for that purpose.

However, these centres are experiencing considerable problems and I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to some of these so that he will, I hope, be able to give attention to them, even if he is perhaps going to take charge of the education portfolio in the Transvaal. The first problem being experienced by these centres is a need for proper amenities in order to do justice to the training.

In Ermelo we have mobilized the parents and the entire community to assist in this regard, because these facilities are not provided by the authorities. Those people set about this task so enthusiastically that we collected R403 000 with which we established a fine building of our own on the school premises. An auditorium with more than 400 seats, a stage and an orchestra pit are accommodated in this building. There are also two ballet training halls, a number of music rooms as well as many other facilities. Of course we are all—children, parents and the whole community—exceptionally proud of this achievement But I want to add that this centre has placed a very great burden on the parent community and consequently my request today is that the State ought to support the creation of such facilities financially on a rand-for-rand basis. As far as Ermelo is concerned, they may as well do this with retrospective effect.

A second problem being experienced is to find enough suitable teaching staff for these centres. In the Transvaal the staff provision scale is hopelessly inadequate. At present the ratio there is 30 pupils per teacher with one hour’s tuition per pupil per week. Surely our gifted pupils must be singled out and ought to receive at least five hours’ tuition per week.

Problems are also being experienced with the qualifications of prospective teachers. We ought to allow people who do not have professional teaching qualifications, but are otherwise eminently suited to providing this tuition, to be appointed. Citizenship requirements ought not to be applied so strictly.

In addition very few promotion opportunities for teachers attached to this centre exist I want to advocate that it be made possible that the creation of the post of departmental head for art centres, as already exist at high schools for other subject fields, be made possible. At present the principal bears the sole responsibility for the art centre at his school. Consequently it is an undeniable fact that the continued existence of the centres are completely dependent on the interest and enthusiasm of the particular headmaster of such a school. This is work for which he does not receive one extra cent in income or remuneration. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Ermelo made a most interesting speech on the question of cultural centres, particularly in the platteland of the Transvaal and the Free State. I think that we would agree with everything that he had to say in this regard.

In the very short time at my disposal I want to raise with the hon. the Minister two matters concerning the SABC, both of which have already been raised. Firstly, I want to mention the matter of religious broadcasts. In this regard I specifically want to refer to the role played by Mr. Chalmers. The position this gentleman holds indicates that he should have some knowledge of religious matters. This gentleman is guilty of quoting, during one of the religious broadcasts, from a most infamous document, a document called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I may say that this document is a discredited document; it has been proved to have no substance at all and is, furthermore, banned. It is a highly anti-Semitic document and quoting from it certainly amounts to a deliberate affront to another religious group. Therefore my request to the hon. the Minister is that Mr. Chalmers and his unpleasant, anti-Semitic views should be kept off the SABC’s programmes in the future.

The second matter I wish to raise was also mentioned by the hon. member for Sandton and concerns the publication Family Radio & TV and its sister magazine, Radio en TV-dagboek. My information—perhaps it is out of date and if it is out of date perhaps the hon. the Minister can bring us up to date on this matter—is that these publications are registered as being owned by Perskor and published by Republican Press. Certainly, to my knowledge at one time this was so. The forerunner of Family Radio & TV was a magazine called Personality. It changed its name and became Family Radio & TV. That was definitely published by the Republican Press. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can tell us. I understood him to say that it was now a SABC publication. I am not clear whether the SABC owns this publication, whether the SABC has bought it from Perskor or whether it was still owned by Perskor. Therefore my question to the hon. the Minister is: If it has been bought by the SABC, when did they buy it and what were the terms of the purchase? It is a most interesting thing to me that the SABC should find it necessary to purchase a magazine from a Press group which can only be said to be Nationalist-orientated. If it is not owned by the SABC at this stage, perhaps there is some sort of contract which the SABC has with Perskor and Republican Press, and if that is so, I should like to know what the terms of that contract are. Again, I would say that it would be highly undesirable for a politically motivated Press group to have dealings with the SABC, which is supposed to be—and I say “supposed to be” somewhat circumspectly—non-political in its views. We would appreciate specific answers to those questions from the hon. the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, it is rather late in the day and I should like to approach this Vote from a completely new angle. I do not want to react to what the hon. member for Orange Grove said, except to say that I would have expected him to say something about the contents of the publication to which he referred, its purport and the programme announcements. Then we would have had something to talk about, but it seems he was only interested in who had printed it. In my opinion it was an effort to sow venom and I cannot agree with that.

My second action is against the hon. member for Umhlanga. He and I agreed to make an effort to find common ground for this debate and I asked him very amiably that he should also address us on the merits of the FAK and then I would find a subject which would approach closely to his basic premises. In this way we would attempt to conduct a positive discussion. However, he left me in the lurch, but I am going to be far more sporting. I am going to keep my promise and discuss a matter on which we can find common ground.

It has been my experience in practice, and I do not think that anyone in this House will doubt it, that in the general discussion on the role of idealism, security and the value of a correct approach to present-day militarism, a great shortcoming has developed to a tangible and disturbing extent in the individual, the family and the nation. It has disappeared from general discussion, to the great disadvantage everything relating to education, character formation and national aspirations. It is a pity that time is too short to go into this matter in depth. Since the hon. the Minister is going to leave us, I want to plead with him very seriously at this late stage—he and I are young enough and if we could have remained together, we could have carried out this project successfully—for the establishment of military schools in all four provinces. This is nothing new. This is where the hon. member for Umhlanga and I have common ground. It is an old institution in America and it is an age-old institution in Great Britain. As far as America is concerned, I am thinking of the La Salle Military Academy in New York, Valley Forge Military Academy in Pennsylvania, Staunton Military Academy in Virginia, Benedictum Military School for Catholics in Georgia, Sanford Naval Academy in Sanford, Florida, and West Point in Maryland. In Great Britain there is Port Dartmouth Naval College and the Winston Churchill School for the training of boys and girls in the military field.

The idea is that we have a military tradition. I am thinking of the days when our parents and grandparents told us in the evenings at the supper table, with their elbows on the table, about the idealism, the sacrifices in service of the ideals and the achievements as a result of inspiration by those ideals. This type of thing is rapidly disappearing from our discussions. The modem day young person misses this. It is necessary for us to bring back this idealism to replace the modem conception of money being power. If I am academically-theoretically well qualified, I can make money, and if I am the possessor of money, I can render services to my people and national service. Mr. Chairman, may I as a member of the old school say that this is so lacking in character that I do not want to comment on it any further.

Idealism, character and discipline are sufficient motivation to acquire and master all these things. They can bring about a positive and striking example for the times and the making of history. We must bring these attributes back into our discussions, and once again afford idealism its place in our community, in our cultural life, in our education and in all the sectors and spheres of our national structure. My point of departure is that if we send our young sons and daughters to such military schools, train them in the traditions of our own past against the background of the needs of the times in which we are living, and associate their names with great men such as De la Rey and De Wet, existing regiments and heroic children such as Dirkie Uys and others, we shall already have the springboard to the tradition which has to be formed. My premise is that regret is of short duration. It is difficult for regret to make up the time lost and fill the need, and it may even fail to do so.

It is my absolute conviction and real attitude that the time has come for us to give very serious attention to the possibility of establishing provincial schools with a uniform as regulation school dress, and if necessary with reserve officers and regimental officers as teachers who are temporarily seconded to those schools. The school uniform should have a regimental badge on the shoulder or arm, and regimental trophies should be donated to that school to make the school aware of a military tradition.

As far as a selection of pupils is concerned, the schools should be rather selective institutions, in which not only theory and academic grounding should be the qualification. A good military historian, Brig. H. Essame, pointed out in his work Patton the Commander that Patton, who studied at West Point and the subsequent Field Marshalls Montgomery and Alexander who studied at Sandhurst and later became world-renowned generals, did not have the highest academic qualifications. But they were people who could unite their will power, idealism and dedication into a complete synthesis in their lives and could render outstanding achievements.

These military schools could follow normal syllabuses so that those pupils who demonstrate that they have no grounding capability and natural aptitude in the military field, could follow a normal university training after completion of their school career. It is from the talent in these schools that the military academies must draw their students for training in the field of their military calling. What is more, when these young boys and young girls are assimilated in society, their idealistic attitude, and their attitudes with regard to discipline, to mention but a few practical examples … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I shall reply to certain of the matters which hon. members raised in the order in which they spoke. I should first like, however, to come back to the hon. member for Sandton. He began his speech this afternoon by saying that he wanted to congratulate the staff association of the SABC on their opposition to the Advocate-General Bill. I inquired about the matter immediately and established of course that the management of the SABC dissociated itself completely from the action of the staff association. The staff association of the SABC does not even represent 18% of the Whites who are employed by the SABC, and yet they make such a clamour. The next question is whether the staff was in fact consulted in the normal way as regards the statement by their executive committee. We get the impression, from the nature of things, that the feelings of the staff members were not tested, and we believe that most staff members would dissociate themselves from the action of the staff association. It should also be placed on record that I find it very interesting that even before the hon. member for Sandton had spoken in the House The Argus already was in possession of his speech, for shortly after he had made his speech, it also appeared in that newspaper.

The hon. member for Standerton also referred to grants for research at universities. I want to tell him that no specific research element has been integrated into the subsidy formula. Provision for that is made in another way. Provision is made for research to be carried out by lecturing staff members, assistant staff members, libraries and with the aid of computers. We should bear in mind, however, that there are many other bodies in South Africa which make money for research available. I am unfortunately unable to read out the long list, but I just want to give an idea of the amounts of money which are being made available by Government departments as well as by statutory bodies. I want to point out a few examples. R265 000 is annually made available by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services; R232 000 by the Department of Sport and Recreation; R7 000 by the Department of Transport for meteorological research at the University of Pretoria; R546 000 by the Department of Transport for Antarctic research in cooperation with universities; R240 000 by the Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs; R1 370 000 by the Medical Research Council of the Department of Health for research at universities; R441 000 by the Department of Forestry for timber and wattle research in co-operation with the universities of Stellenbosch and Natal; R2 581 000 by the CSIR for research, bursaries and grants; and R258 000 by the Department of National Education for nuclear research. I have rounded off all these figures. There are also other statutory bodies, such as the HSRC, the Atomic Energy Board, the National Institute for Metallurgy and Armscor. I requested information on these bodies but it did not reach me in time.

When the hon. member for Maraisburg spoke, I thought of my former debating society days. I can only praise cultural advancement by local bodies. We also undertake cultural advancement by means of the department’s regional councils. We trust that there will be sufficient local initiative to carry these matters further. However, parents have a particular obligation. There is a truth which one easily forgets, and that is that a child is not born with culture, but in a culture. The child has to acquire culture, learn it and make it a part of his being. If the forming of his cultural character is not taken care of at home, however, how must that cultural heritage become part of him, even if he has been born into the culture? I have said on occasion that parents should not regard a cultural heritage as worthless, something to be discarded, because then no child would make valuable parts of that heritage his own. Parents should no longer expect the churches, schools, cultural bodies and so on to do this work for them. Parents should do a great deal of the work at home. The parent community should encourage and give their co-operation in order to establish precisely local associations of the kind to which the hon. member referred. I thank him for the thought. I trust that everyone of us who feels about these matters as he does will convey this idea to our local communities.

The hon. member for Kimberley North referred to youth work and camping sites. He said that the necessary co-ordination and so on should be done in this regard. I trust that it will be good news to him when I say that approximately R44 000 has been made available for the construed of a dining hall, etc., on the camping site at Warrenton, in his constituency. We know that the people who are going to make use of that camping site will not only have their meals there but will also do all that beautiful work there to which the hon. member referred. An amount of nearly R100 000 has been made available for 15 of our camping sites and of that amount, the hon. member’s people are receiving R44 000. That is perhaps a little much, but let us regard it as a farewell present to the hon. member.

On the recommendation of the National Council for Culture discussions recently took place between all the representatives and Government bodies that are engaged in youth work. This was done so that we could achieve precisely what the hon. member asked for, viz. the necessary co-ordination in respect of the work which is being done as well as perhaps in respect of fields which are being created for the work. Follow-up discussions will take place, and we trust that we shall indeed achieve through them what the hon. member asked for. We thank him for his enthusiasm in this regard, because very good work is done when youth groups get together.

I have also had the opportunity to address some of those leader groups and one leaves such meetings with a feeling of self-fulfilment.

†The hon. member for Umhlanga spoke in quieter terms than last year about the SABC and also about television. He also spoke about the views of viewers about programmes, etc. He was rather annoyed because the hon. the Prime Minister was given a little more prominence than the hon. member for Durban Point on television.

What do you call an understatement?

One of the hon. members said that we must look at the newsmakers, and in this case I think it was the newsmaker who appeared on television.

*I want to say that when it comes to the quality of the programmes, the SABC has its methods, recognized marketing techniques and research techniques with regard to the qualitative research they do. There are indeed 2 000 staff members, but they have been selected scientifically and they are dealt with scientifically too, to do the research in respect of the quality of programmes. When they undertake such a random sampling, they also take cognizance of the socio-economic norms, and then a cross section of the whole population is determined according to those norms. Attention is given to sex, age, home language, residence area, income group, etc. This is the recognized technique. It is possible to obtain highly reliable and correct results with modem statistical methods which in fact give one a reflection of what one indeed finds in society in general. The hon. member can accept that. Those are recognized methods, and the hon. member can accept that the evaluation of the programmes are done fairly thoroughly. Even the percentage of 55% to which the hon. member referred, is an indication of an average satisfaction which that programme does give, but I just want to tell the hon. member that it is not just done haphazardly. Recognized scientific methods are in fact applied.

†Then the hon. member spoke about dubbing and he had a suggestion to make. This is a rather technical matter, but I have made notes and I shall speak to radio and television people to see whether this is feasible or not. The hon. member also spoke about the religious programme and referred to Mr. Chalmers. The hon. member for Orange Grove did the same. I might add that about a week or two ago the hon. member for Simonstown and the hon. member for Walmer approached me about the same matter. I was informed about what happened and was told that Mr. Chalmers did make the remark on the programme as was indicated by the hon. member for Orange Grove.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.