Mr. Speaker, I move—

Mr. Speaker, on the face of it the motion moved by the hon. the Minister may seem to be innocuous. Yet it is the background to this legislation that causes us to decide what attitude we should adopt to this measure at this stage. Quite clearly it is the function of the Opposition, especially in today’s circumstances, to be vigilant in protecting the rights of individuals and democratic institutions in our society. It is against this background that we must decide whether we should support or reject the Bill at this early stage.

After ’phoning McHenry?

Opposition to a motion for leave to introduce a Bill is unusual, but the hon. the Minister will realize that it is not unique. It was done in 1969 with the National Education Policy Bill, in 1975 with the Coloured Persons Representative Council Bill, in 1976 with the Status of Transkei Bill, in 1977 with the Newspaper Bill and in 1977 with the Status of Bophuthatswana Bill. This course of action, however, is reserved for legislation which one considers as being of a fundamental kind, or which is either offensive in principle or damaging to the structure and functioning of our system of government. In other words, this step is not taken lightly. On past occasions the Opposition has usually had the advantage of having seen either the draft Bill or of having studied a Government White Paper. On this occasion the Opposition has had no such opportunity. Neither does the short title or the long title of the Bill indicate, at first glance, whether this Bill is of the fundamental kind that we have in mind. The short title is very simply “Advocate-General Bill”. The long title deals with the appointment of the Advocate-General, and only in the words “to determine the duties and powers of the Advocate-General and to provide for matters connected therewith” can there possibly be an element making this a Bill of a fundamental nature.

Let me make it clear that if this had simply been a Bill setting up the post of the Advocate-General, we would not have opposed it at this stage. We would have debated, in other stages, whether it was desirably or necessary to have such a post at all. That could have been dealt with in other stages. The question is, however, whether the implications of this Bill, even as it stands now, go beyond the narrow interpretation of the words contained in the title of the Bill. Here we cannot divorce this from all that has gone before, because there have been a number of very clear statements of intention from the Government, and the hon. the Prime Minister in particular, as well as consistent reports in the Government-supporting Press, relating to the Government’s intention to introduce legislation in this field.

Over past months there have been repeated warnings from the Government that it intended to introduce so-called “anti-rumour-mongering legislation” which was to become effective on the day after the Erasmus Commission reported on the 30th of this month. In Hansard of 8 December, column 513, the hon. the Prime Minister warned both the Press and individual members of this House that they would be subject to anti-rumour-mongering legislation after 30 May. On 16 March, in this House, the hon. the Prime Minister, during a private member’s motion, gave the first indication that there would be legislation involving the appointment of an Advocate-General. In reply to a question I put to the hon. the Prime Minister across the floor of the House during a discussion of his Vote, he did not deny that there was going to be anti-rumour-mongering legislation. He merely said he was waiting for a reply from the NPU, These and other indications in Parliament, ever since the Press ripped open the whole Information scandal in April of last year, and again in November, has shown that the Government is acutely sensitive, a sensitivity verging on belligerence, about the Press whenever there are probes into or exposures of corruption and maladministration. One can look at the Sasolburg speech by the hon. the Prime Minister way back in December. The hon. the Prime Minister has lectured, berated and warned the Press of action that would be taken “unless it puts its house in order”.

I want to come to the intention with this particular Bill, because we have to define our attitude in terms of declared intentions as far as the Government is concerned. Taking everything into account—the lack of a firm denial on the part of the Government and the statements in the House as to intention—we must come to the conclusion that, if this Bill were passed, it would muzzle and gag the Press and would deny the citizens of South Africa information to which they are entitled regarding allegations of corruption. If this is so—and in the absence of a denial, we believe it is so—then this measure must in fact be seen as a fundamental measure and as an attack on our parliamentary system of Government If there are limitations of this kind on a free Press and on the right of the public to know, our parliamentary system cannot function properly. It is against the background of the concept of the important part the free Press plays in our parliamentary system and of the right of individual citizens to know, a right fundamental to our parliamentary system, that we, on the basis of what we have before us, cannot support this Bill even at this stage. I want to put it to the hon. the Leader of the House—and I want to express my appreciation to him for giving me, just before lunch, some inkling of what this measure is about—that we want to say to the Government: Let someone on behalf of the Government stand up during this debate and give this House a categorical assurance that this Bill, should it become law, will in no way further restrict the Press and will in no way deprive citizens of their right to know of allegations of corruption in the administration. This is what we expect from the Government across the floor of the House. Let me say that, if that categorical assurance is forthcoming both with regard to the Press and the right of citizens to know, we will reassess our position as far as this Bill is concerned. However, as the motion stands, and in the light of the background to this Bill and the declarations of intention on the part of the Government, we find that this Bill is repugnant. It is repugnant because it is going to restrict the informing, cleansing and inquiring role of the Press. It can have the effect of depriving citizens of the right to know what is happening in government.

Order! The hon. the Leader of the Opposition must not go too far beyond the scope of the motion.

Mr. Speaker, I venture these points because I want to emphasize that these aspects of the proposed measure are of a fundamental nature which affect our democratic institutions and the functioning of Parliament. Because we believe that the proposed measure, as it stands, is going to have the effect of intruding on the functions of Parliament, we are going to oppose its introduction.

Mr. Speaker, the Opposition is opposing the First Reading of this Bill. That means that they feel so strongly about the matter that they do not even know what is contained in the Bill. The hon. Leader of the Opposition has now tried to throw up a smoke screen around their opposition to this Bill. The fact of the matter is, however, that they are saying: “We are closing our eyes before we know what we are being expected to look at”. All that we have before us at the moment, is what the hon. the Prime Minister said about the office when he announced the Government’s intention in the debate on the motion of the hon. member for Parktown on 16 March this year.

That is not all.

I am quoting the hon. the Prime Minister’s words (Hansard, 16 March 1979, col. 2690)—

In column 2695 the hon. the Minister came to the Advocate-General—

He went on to state that, on the basis of what existed in other countries, he was going to appoint an Advocate-General. He then stated (column 2695)—

What emerges from this is, in the first place, the hon. the Prime Minister’s commitment to clean administration. These were practically the first words he uttered in public after his election as Prime Minister. Since then, this has become a golden refrain in his speeches. What emerges from this in the second place is that he recognizes the right of Parliament to keep a watchful eye on the national administration.

We should not forget that the representatives of the nation are gathered here in Parliament. If one cannot mislead Parliament, if one cannot conceal anything from Parliament, one can not conceal anything from the nation either.

One of the methods the hon. the Prime Minister has envisaged, has been the office of Advocate-General, in conjunction with a Select Committee of Parliament. We have no further details, but there is the fact that a Select Committee will participate, and this is to me an expression of the hon. the Prime Minister’s acknowledgment and affirmation of the parliamentary form of government and his respect for it at its best.

One would imagine that it could be the parallel of the Auditor-General and the Select Committee on Public Accounts. At this stage we do not know. That is the idea, the thought to which the PFP would close their eyes even before they even know what is involved. I wish to ask the hon. member for Yeoville whether he is in agreement with his party’s opposition to the Bill. [Interjections.] I wish to ask him that, and I shall tell him why I am asking him that: It is because in the debates on Information this year he kept on insisting that a Select Committee of Parliament rather than a judicial committee should investigate the whole Information affair. Here we are now linking a permanent investigating officer to a Select Committee of Parliament in accordance with the prospect held out to us by the hon. the Prime Minister. They are opposing this even before they know how it is thought this should function.

Have you seen the Bill?

I have not seen the Bill. Have the hon. members seen the Bill? [Interjections.]

*Why this attitude of closing their eyes even before they know what they are going to see? I believe the answer to this question lies in their own inability to make a positive contribution to the Government of the country. It lies in their frustration after the result of Swellendam where they polled just over 300 votes, after they had battened on Information for months. It has made them cynical. It has made them so resentful that I think that just like Mugabe, Nkomo and Nujoma, they see no future for themselves in a parliamentary system of government in South Africa. I think they are opposed to the system and that these days they regard their parliamentary role as a purely negative one, an obstructive one and one of undermining the proper government of the country.

Order! The hon. member has gone too far now.

Sir, I withdraw the word “undermining” and I say, a paralysing one. I believe that to an increasing extent they are regarding their activities as being confined to the extra-parliamentary sphere and consequently they have allowed themselves to be taken in tow by the Press to agitate against what they now term a “Press-law”. The National Party Government has never been reluctant to take action in cases of irregularities. This morning’s Cape Times arrogates to the Press the exposure of the Agliotti transactions and the Information expenditures. Surely that is not true. I sat in a party meeting on a Saturday before the Sunday when the Agliotti affair was …

The hon. member must confine himself to the motion.

As it pleases you, Mr. Speaker. I am merely illustrating in this regard that this Government has at all times opened things up whereas it is being insinuated here that things are being covered up. I merely wish to say: As far as the Agliotti affair was concerned at the time, the then Prime Minister had already committed himself, before the Press had published anything, to have the case investigated and even to pass legislation, if necessary, to have the transaction nullified.

As far as Information is concerned, it was not the Press that exposed it. The Auditor-General initially reported it to the then Prime Minister. Subsequently a Select Committee of Parliament investigated the matter. If there were members in that Select Committee who withheld information from the Select Committee, then they must not come and shed tears about it now. Then the present Prime Minister when he became Prime Minister, immediately extended the functions and terms of reference of the Pretorius Committee and stated: “Flay it right open to the bone.”

The hon. member must please confine himself to the motion now.

Yesterday’s leading article in Hoofstad is opposed to this Bill, but the editor, or whoever wrote this article, stated—

Now read The Citizen editorial.

The editor states this point of view, but strangely enough he offers no other solution. This is what we stand for, that the Government is coming forward here with a positive measure to counteract rumourmongering, rumour-mongering that is prejudicial to the country, rumour-mongering that is paralysing the national administration, and this …

Order! The hon. member is dealing with matters that are not contained in the motion.

I challenge the Opposition. Let us look at this Bill. Let us debate it, one standpoint against another, and then they can say why they are opposed to it. At this stage they have nothing to argue about.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Waterkloof spoke about a smoke-screen. He dragged in everything except what is contained in the motion before the House. He dragged in the words of the hon. the Prime Minister as if they were the only thing involved in this measure.

†I want to tell the hon. member that it is impossible for him simply to come here with a holier-than-thou attitude, to quote the words of the hon. the Prime Minister and to say that that is the only matter which is before the House as though there is not a background to the entire discussion that has taken place. The hon. the Prime Minister himself, when the first motion was discussed, indicated that it was intended to put a stop to rumour-mongering, “skindering” and all that sort of thing which he finds so very offensive. The hon. member for Waterkloof appears to find it offensive that the Press should report the actions of Parliament. He seems to find it offensive that the activities of the former Department of Information were reported to the public outside.

Nonsense!

That was quite clearly the attitude the hon. member took up. I regard that as being absolutely reprehensible on the part of the hon. member. It is the duty of the Press and of Parliament to see that the sovereign people are informed of what is going on. The hon. the Prime Minister himself has clearly indicated that he seeks a clean administration. An informed Press is part of his own effort to see to it that the administration is not only clean, but is also kept clean. I believe that anything which casts the least shadow of doubt on the competence of the Press to report what happens in the administration which is run by the hon. the Prime Minister, will cast doubt on his own credibility and integrity.

Order! The hon. member will concede that that is not apparent from the motion.

Mr. Speaker, I concede that that is not apparent from the motion. But I thank you for allowing me to say it. [Interjections.] I do not want to interrupt the hon. members if they want to make my speech for me, but I should like to ask why the hon. the Prime Minister does not come out with a categoric denial that this Bill is intended to muzzle the Press.

[Inaudible.]

Yes, I shall tell you all about that, too. That would quite easily have solved the entire problem that hon. Opposition members have with the proposal before the House. If it is not the intention of the hon. the Prime Minister to give that kind of denial, either by himself or through the mouth of one of the hon. members on his side of the House—quite clearly it did not come from the hon. member for Waterkloof—he must expect that there will be opposition to the Bill at this stage, opposition which is totally unnecessary if there is not an intention on the part of the hon. the Prime Minister or the hon. the Leader of the House, who is introducing this Bill, to take some kind of action which will restrict the legitimate activities of the Press. As far as the question of rumour-mongering is concerned, the hon. the Prime Minister must understand that if rumours are spread about and result in action being taken by the Advocate-General, an office which the hon. the Leader of the House wants to institute as an organ of this Parliament, that will not stop rumours being spread about. Those rumours will rather be given greater credence. It will lead to rumours to be bandied about. I should like to know from the hon. the Leader of the House whether the Press will also have to abstain from comment when in action in terms of this very proposed legislation is taken against people who are purportedly rumour-mongering. What further action is going to be taken against the Press for reporting anything which happened in such a particular case? I should like to say that we have a very clear case for saying that we do not agree with the motion the hon. the Leader of the House is asking the House to agree to, because at no time in the history of this Parliament and in the Westminster parliamentary system has any proposal been made to institute an office of this sort According to the hon. member for Waterkloof the hon. the Prime Minister mentioned offices created by other Parliaments. If one studies the words the hon. the Prime Minister used on that occasion very carefully—and we have studied them very carefully—one will find that he was referring to an officer of a totally different kind, to the sort of office he referred to as an “ombudsman”, an officer who was entitled to bring to the attention of Government departments and Ministers complaints by the members of the public because bureaucracy has denied them that access. That has nothing whatever to do with the proposal which is now before the House.

The hon. the Prime Minister mentioned that particular officer … [Interjections.] I am referring to the words of the hon. the Prime Minister. The hon. member for Waterkloof quoted these words. I am saying that from this proposal and the silence of the hon. the Prime Minister we can infer that this is something which is aimed at the step we fear, i.e. the muzzling of the Press. We make the same offer the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has made. Let any hon. member rise and give us an absolute and outright assurance that it is not the intention to do that. [Interjections.]

But you can read the Bill.

The hon. member says “You can read the Bill.” The hon. the Leader of the House has moved a motion to introduce into this Parliament a totally new institution, one we have never had before, viz. an Advocate-General, and he is going to do certain things. Throughout the entire history of the Westminster democracy this has not happened, and the only reason that we know of why this might be introduced are statements made by the hon. the Prime Minister himself. Surely we are entitled to draw a conclusion from that and from the action of the hon. the Prime Minister. Furthermore, there has not been any kind of a denial from anybody on that side of the House as to what his intentions are. I think that a clear onus is on hon. members on that side of the House to tell us exactly what is envisaged. We are entitled to say that we regard it as being unpatriotic and un-South African to introduce this type of legislation at this stage when we are facing a total onslaught against South Africa. The hon. the Minister of Transport is now introducing legislation which is divisive, which is not bringing our people together, which is intended to do a certain thing to the advantage of certain people and which will affect the right of the voters outside this House to know what is going on in the Government. I believe that we are perfectly entitled to say to the hon. the Minister of Transport that we shall oppose this Bill unless there is a very, very clear undertaking from an hon. member on the other side, a responsible member … [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Von Brandis!

No, not that one. We want that assurance, and we shall then decide whether that assurance is good enough, whether we shall accept it and whether we shall vote, as we now intend to vote, against the First Reading of the Bill.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Mooi River asked for responsible argumentation and debate. I can assure the hon. member that he will always get well-founded and well-motivated debating from this side of the House. But what do we have as a basis from which we can argue and from which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Mooi River were able to debate? Before us we have the motion of the hon. the Minister of Transport, namely—

That is what is being proposed.

We can also read.

The hon. member for Yeoville says they can also read. I am very pleased to hear that. I wonder whether his former teacher agrees with that. If there had still been a little uncertainty on the part of the Opposition as to what was contained in the motion, I think it would have been only fair, for the sake of the debate, to have gone back to the speech which the hon. the Prime Minister made on 16 March 1979 when, inter alia, he moved an amendment. The third leg of his amendment read as follows (Hansard, 16 March, col. 2695)—

Mr. Speaker, I think you would agree with me that if we use this as a basis, we can argue about this motion, and then one’s surprise and astonishment is all the greater that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Mooi River tried with their arguments to deter the Government from its intention to establish good and clean administration in this country and to afford everyone questioning it an opportunity to refer to a specific person. I find it astonishing that the hon. members of the Opposition cannot perceive this. But that is not all that is involved here. The parties of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Mooi River have previously expressed opinions on the expected legislation. What I find so surprising is that not only did hon. members raise objections to this motion here today, but as long ago as 12 May this year the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said the following—

What right does the hon. the Leader of the Opposition have to make this statement, even before we have had an opportunity to examine the piece of legislation? [Interjections.] The hon. member went on to say—

The hon. member should consult a dictionary to see what muzzle means. He used the same word in his arguments today.

The “Muzzling Act” is an apposite name for the piece of legislation.

The hon. member went on to say—

And furthermore—

The hon. member then made the following very interesting prediction—

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. member a question?

No, I am sorry. The hon. Leader of the Opposition is now more than just a man who makes telephone calls; he is also becoming a telephone prophet. Before the legislation was tabled he not only drew conclusions on the background of the Bill but also made prophetic remarks in regard to the Bill. [Interjections.] What kind of Opposition is this? We now find the situation that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, who ought to be a responsible person, not only predicts what is going to be said, but even touched on the Third Reading of the Bill by saying what the ultimate effect of the legislation was going to be. I think it is behaviour of a highly irresponsible kind if the general public and this party, as the government party, is not afforded an opportunity of demonstrating by way of legislation its intentions and how it wishes to administer and govern this country well. But that is not all. The hon. members of the NRP were just as stupid and foolish.

The hon. member for East London North said, inter alia, the following—

Surely that is an absolutely irresponsible, frivolous and superficial kind of standpoint on the part of the Opposition. If the voters outside and I are to take the hon. member seriously, surely one cannot accept this kind of terminology. I think it is extremely unfair that the hon. member should speak of a final nail in the coffin of democracy while the very intention of the Government—as is apparent from what I quoted here in this House—is that we should like to have an institution and legislation with which we could in fact serve democracy and its highest ideals.

Order! Newspaper reports are not relevant now. Only the motion is relevant.

I defer to your ruling, Sir. I just want to say in passing that the impression which the hon. member for Simonstown gave me was that he, as a fair opponent of the Government, decided to see what was going to be tabled first, to study its contents and after having scrutinized it and tested it in a level-headed way against the principles and the ideals of his party, to adopt a standpoint on the matter during the Second Reading of this Bill. I think that is a fair thing to do. The impression which was created in this debate, the introduction, the prelude, was that the Government is tampering with Press freedom, and I want to tell hon. members of the Opposition that it is unfair at this stage to drag such arguments into the discussion of this legislation. It is unfair and it casts an unjustifiable dark cloud over the standpoint which the hon. the Prime Minister adopted in respect of the Press. I want to conclude by saying that the general public has the right to know precisely how the Government will act in future so that the least problems will be experienced with State administration. The hon. the Prime Minister owes it to the people because he promised it to them. His aim is good government and a durable administration, one which functions neatly and efficiently. I think that everyone in this country who is interested in good order and administration, is looking forward to this Bill, will study it calmly and then ascertain in the Second Reading whether the hon. the Prime Minister is keeping his word. Consequently I think it is unfair to refuse to allow this Bill to be introduced.

Mr. Speaker, the other Opposition parties have, predictably, taken the same line that they took two years ago when the Newspaper Bill was introduced. They once again oppose the First Reading of a Bill without seeing it, only having the short and the long title before them on which to judge the merits of the Bill. What does the title disclose? [Interjections.] It only proposes the establishment of the office of Advocate-General and the determination of his duties and powers. That is all it refers to.

Let me remind hon. members of the other Opposition parties that hon. members of my party, who were members of the Independent United Party at the time when the Newspaper Bill was before this House, agreed to the First Reading. [Interjections.] Then we made strong representations to the Government, after the Bill had been published and after we had seen what was envisaged in terms of that Bill. We then urged the Government to have consultations with the National Press Union, and we believe that our representations, although coming from a small party, nevertheless carried some weight and as a result, the Bill was withdrawn and a modus vivendi was established between the Government and the Newspaper Press Union. [Interjections.] Whether this has worked out in practice, only the Government will be able to tell us. Presumably during the Second Reading of this particular Bill, the Government will report to the House on those negotiations and how they have worked out.

As I said at the time of the Newspaper Bill, the official Opposition have double standards. They sentence without trial and condemn without reading a Bill. Why? To them—and they presume that this Bill has reference to the Press—the Press in South Africa is a sacred cow. [Interjections.]

During the Second Reading of this Bill, it will be up to the Government to justify the need for creating the post of Advocate-General and to describe in detail and to the satisfaction of hon. members of this House— if it wants the support of the hon. members of this House—the functions to be performed by this officer. They can only do this at the Second Reading, and not before. That is why we—without any hesitation—agree to the First Reading, while reserving our right, after hearing arguments at Second Reading—at which stage only, a balanced judgment can be formed on the merits of the Bill—to decide whether we intend to oppose or support the Bill, which will then be upon us.

Mr. Speaker, since the hon. the Leader of the House, as mover of this motion, cannot reply in terms of the rules of this House, I have been asked to elucidate briefly a few aspects of the motion before this House on his behalf and on behalf of the Government. What we experienced in this debate from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was that, as usual, he stormed into a situation without thinking. That was the case when he phoned Mr. McHenry. [Interjections.] He stormed in again today and made a number of allegations for which no justification is to be found in the motion before this House. He and other Opposition speakers, with the exception of the hon. member for Simonstown, tried, condemned and sentenced this side of the House, on the strength of the short title and rumours, without their being fully conversant with the facts. [Interjections.] They may as well listen carefully now, because I want to explain it to them in a nutshell. In the first place this Bill is aimed at a proper investigation of any alleged maladministration on State level and in State context At the same time it is aimed at affording any person every opportunity of initiating such an investigation by turning to the Advocate-General.

How do you know that?

In the third place it is aimed at the speedy, responsible and balanced disclosure of the facts and the results of such an investigation. Hon. members may as well go back and digest that calmly now. Let us then debate the details of the Bill, when they become available, as responsible parliamentarians would do.

What did the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. speakers of the NRP do today? They proceeded, on the basis of rumours, to charge the Government of the Republic of South Africa of being opposed to Press freedom. [Interjections.] That is the statement which they made. Not a single quotation pertaining to what preceded this matter was made which gave any grounds for the statement that the Government, by means of this Bill or in any other way, is opposed to Press freedom. [Interjections.]

Deny it then.

I shall deny it now. I shall state clearly what the Government’s standpoint on Press freedom is. [Interjections.] I wish to submit that by casting suspicion on the Government’s genuineness and honesty when it states that it believes in Press freedom the Opposition is once again proving itself to be an irresponsible Opposition. [Interjections.]

History will be the judge of that [Interjections.]

Before I come to Press freedom, I first want to point out that the basic question before the House here is: Is the Opposition opposed to the creation of a forum before which alleged maladministration can be brought and investigated? [Interjections.] We have not received a single clear and unambiguous reply from them to the question of whether they are in favour of machinery being created to counteract maladministration in South Africa and to ensure clean government Despite the fact that this is the essence of the motion before the House, they keep nagging away about Press freedom. [Interjections.] Are they interested in clean government? [Interjections.] That is the question we are asking them. Are they interested in proper administration? [Interjections.]

We have been fighting for it for 30 years.

Or are they perhaps interested in the process in which we find ourselves, and to which all of them referred, continuing? This is the process of suspicion-mongering, not of the Government or of the NP, but a process of undermining an orderly Government and the authority of the State. I now want to know from them: Are they in favour of the establishment of a forum which will help to ensure clean government and to counteract maladministration? [Interjections.] Have we reached the stage where two Opposition parties remain completely silent in Parliament when they are asked whether they are in favour of a method of helping to promote clean government and counteract maladministration.

Of course we are in favour of it.

After I had asked the question for the third time, the hon. member for Durban Point has replied and has said that of course they were in favour of it I accept his assurance. However, I received no reply from the PFP in this connection. [Interjections.] We are not asking them to compromise themselves in respect of detail. We are asking them to compromise themselves in respect of what is stated in this motion, and that is that an Advocate-General will be appointed.

With what powers?

In the motion it is stated that an Advocate-General will be appointed to help promote clean government.

Is that the only principle?

Surely they know that that is what is involved here. After all, they themselves quoted passages indicating that that is what they knew about it. They even quoted the words of the hon. the Prime Minister in this House.

We do not sign the way Horwood does.

We do not flinch from adopting a standpoint on Press freedom. The NP is fully in favour of Press freedom. Hon. members on that side do not have the sole right to be in favour of Press freedom. I want to quote what I stated myself in a previous debate when Press freedom was being discussed. I want to do so because I gave this matter very careful thought and because it states clearly how we and I feel about the matter.

Order! If the Press is at all relevant, is the Second Reading debate not the opportunity to discuss it?

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, every previous speaker referred to Press freedom, and I merely want to state the Government’s standpoint on Press freedom.

Order! The hon. the Minister may proceed.

I quote—

That is our standpoint [Interjections.] However, Press freedom is only one of the cornerstones of our democratic system. There are many other important cornerstones, for example freedom of speech, etc. I could enumerate many others. I do not think that one of the hon. members of the NRP will differ with me when I say that the most important cornerstone of democracy, of a civilized democratic State, is orderly government and structures in which the people have confidence. Do they not agree? [Interjections.] Consequently it is the standpoint of this side of the House that although Press freedom is of the utmost importance, it is equally of the utmost importance that confidence in the structures, in the organs of the State, be restored in South Africa, confidence which has over a long period of time been systematically undermined for the sake of party political gain and which we now wish to restore through the establishment of an office which we want to turn into a respectable office, an office which the people will be able to look up to. I charge the hon. the Opposition parties of having done, at the outset here, precisely what they have tried throughout to do with the Erasmus Commission, and that is to try to undermine confidence in an office which is divorced from the party-political arena, even before they have the full particulars. [Interjections.] Consequently I cannot come to any other conclusion but that they are not in as real earnest about orderly government as we on this side are. We in the NP are not prepared to allow orderly government to be destroyed by bodies that act in an extra-parliamentary context. I repeat that the office of Advocate-General, as embodied in the motion which is before us, a positive motion, is intended to ensure that wherever maladministration occurs, it will be investigated in an effective way in order to expose and counteract such maladministration.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Minister did not reply to the very pertinent questions put to him from this side of the House. However, he did put a fair question to us, and I am going to reply to it.

Before I come to that, I want to say that the hon. the Prime Minister and the hon. the Minister dealing with the legislation would have been acting in the interests of everyone if they had discussed the contents of the Bill in advance with the Opposition parties in Parliament [Interjections.] Correct, they are under no obligation to do so, but practical experience has shown that consultation in advance with the rest of Parliament on legislation of a contentious nature, in most cases produces good results.

There is a special reason for my being astonished that the Government did not do so in this case and with this Bill. The fact that it is the hon. the Leader of the House who introduced the Bill and is going to deal with it, is an indication that Parliament as an institution is involved in the provisions of the Bill; that Parliament as an institution is affected by the Bill. If that is so, it was indeed the duty of the Government and the hon. the Minister—not their right but their duty—to consult in advance with the rest of Parliament and to refer to Parliament on this matter.

Why?

It is the practice that when legislation is introduced which affects Parliament as an institution, there must be consultation between the various political parties. Why the secrecy here? There was no consultation, and that alone is reason enough to oppose the introduction of the Bill.

But vote against it then.

Even at this late stage we are still fair enough in our attitude to ask the Government to give certain assurances and explanations, for then we could perhaps consider the matter in another light. The facts of the matter are quite simple. Certain misgivings have been raised in public on the contents of the Bill; not by the mischievous English-language Press, but by reports in the Press which supports the Government and by reporters in very close contact with Government members. Why could the hon. the Minister who has just participated in the debate not have replied to the questions and requests of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition? Why this unwillingness?

Are we going to have here a Bill which affects the rights of members of Parliament to ask questions? Does it affect that right? Does it affect the right of a member of Parliament to level criticism under all circumstances?

You are going to feel ashamed of yourselves.

Ashamed of ourselves? But surely there is no sound reason why the essential particulars of a Bill cannot be made known at or even prior to the First Reading? Why is this not being done?

It shall be done at the Second Reading.

But why not now? If there are misgivings—and those misgivings were not created by us, but by organs of the Government—why not clear them up?

That will also be dealt with during the Second Reading.

Why is the rest of Parliament not being consulted in the intention of the Government? I want to repeat that this attitude alone on the part of the Government will cause me to vote against the introduction of the Bill.

The hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications asked the fair question whether we are opposed to the creation of machinery or the establishment of a forum to investigate malpractices. Let me make it clear that if this Bill has that intention—then all the Government has to do is say so …

Surely I did say so.

No. If the Bill has the exclusive intention of establishing a kind of ombudsman which one finds in European Parliaments and who can immediately investigate complaints on possible or actual malpractices in the national administration there can be no objection in principle to the Bill. In fact, there have been private motions in the past from the Opposition benches on the appointment of an ombudsman to do that very kind of work. It has been proposed time and again here. The ombudsman must be connected with Parliament Consequently it is a principle which has been advocated for a long time by members of the Opposition, but which has never been accepted by the opposite side of the House. In fact, I want to say that the post of umbudsman has become essential if the country wishes to ensure that it has a clean administration. The only assurance we want is that the Government is not going to spoil a good principle by imposing unreasonable restrictions on and censoring the ordinary functions of the public Press and by further restricting the right of publication which has been seriously curtailed in recent years—it has already been curtailed further during the present session too.

There is something else I wish to add. There are certain things which I find inexplicable as far as the present Government is concerned. I know that all Governments are a little sensitive and in some respect or other fear the freedom of the Press. If one goes back in history one sees that since the days when General Hertzog was Prime Minister, almost every Prime Minister found it difficult to conceal his irritation at the Press and the right of freedom of publication. Almost all of them threatened to take steps in some form or other. In addition there are few politicians who have not at one stage or another been dissatisfied with the Press. The present Government did, after all, come into power under the present system of Press freedom. In fact, not only did it come into power, but it grew stronger under that system. It grew under the system, and today it is sitting here with a powerful majority. The Government, or at least its members, has control over the entire Afrikaans-language Press. It also has a monopoly of control over television and radio.

What has that to do with the motion?

What astonishes me is that it nevertheless cannot leave the measure of effective freedom which the Press possesses today in peace.

Order! The hon. member is now moving away from the motion. Up to now he has been quite relevant, but now he is digressing completely.

Mr. Speaker, I object to your statement that I was “quite” relevant. After all, you allowed me to continue.

Order!

You even allowed others to refer to Swellendam in the debate. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member may not criticize the Chair. I have given the hon. member the opportunity to discuss the Press briefly. I now request him to return to the motion before the House.

Very well, Sir. Let me say, however, that what is involved here is not Press freedom as such. The concept of Press freedom has a much wider significance. It also involves your freedom and mine to rise and criticize and to have it published. We use the words “Press freedom”, but when steps are taken which imply censorship in regard to the right of publication …

Order! The hon. member is drawing inferences from the motion which I cannot allow him to discuss.

We made inquiries from the Minister of Transport and the Government had the opportunity of furnishing us with the reply to that today, but none of the hon. members on the opposite side stood up and said that it did not affect the right of publication. None of them denied that it affects the right of publication. That is why I accept that it does in fact do so. This is also what we have been told. [Interjections.] I want to submit that there is no doubt that “Press freedom” is a wide concept. It affects the rights of every individual; it also affects the basic rights of Parliament and of members of Parliament. Consequently, in view of the circumstances and in view of the poor replies we have received, we must lodge the strongest objection to the policy of the closed door and of detracting from the status of the Press and the right of publication which directly affects the right of Parliament.

Mr. Chairman, I am grateful to be entering calmer waters after the lightning debate that has just been conducted here. Speaking as the responsible Minister for the first time in a debate on this Vote, I wish to avail myself of this opportunity of thanking the people with whom I have co-operated and the three departments in which I served as Deputy Minister until last year. I should like to express my appreciation to the Ministers with whom I worked, viz. the hon. S. W. van der Merwe, the hon. J. P. van der Spuy, the former Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, and the hon. F. W. de Klerk, and also to the senior officials, including Mr. Van Vuuren, Secretary for Social Welfare and Pensions—I think everyone will agree with me that Mr. Van Vuuren has received a well-earned promotion and I want to congratulate him on it—Mr. Otto, the Secretary for Environmental Planning, and his officials, as well as Dr. Du Plessis and his officials from the Department of Statistics. Working with these officials, as I have been privileged to do, and as I am again privileged today to work with officials of the calibre that one finds in the Department of Education and Training, I feel more and more strongly what a pity it is that in the whole Information episode, the finest Public Service in the world has inevitably also been implicated in the latest debates and conversations which have resulted from the irregularities in that one particular department. But I should like to record here tonight, as the conviction of the whole House, I believe, that the unfortunate events in a department that has now been disbanded do not detract in any way from the quality, the loyalty and the dedication of the officials in the Public Service of the Republic of South Africa. On behalf of this side of the House, I should like to pay tribute to them and to express my regret about the fact that their good work has also been implicated because of the unfortunate events.

I have been privileged to take up my post in this department at a very fortunate and challenging time in the history of this particular department. I am very well aware of the fact that there is an enormous amount of work to be done and that an extremely difficult road lies ahead for us. But I think it would also be a gross disregard of the truth and a sign of great ingratitude if I did not also mention the very great work which has been done in the past under difficult and varying circumstances to bring the department to the stage where it is able to enter upon a happy period today.

At the outset, I want to appeal to hon. members on all sides of the House to remember that in dealing with the Vote of this department, we are dealing with a department in which very delicate situations may arise. I think that all of us who have children understand the problems of young people today. However, I think that we should have to show twice the responsibility if, in the conditions prevailing in the world today, we did not also give attention to the special problems of our country and of its people. When we think of the riots there have been in the sphere of activity of the Department of Education and Training, one is sometimes inclined to feel bitter, perhaps, and to make all kinds of reproaches. It is only human that reproaches will be made, but when one sees this against the background of the remarks of someone like Marcuse, who spoke in his teachings about the rebelliousness of young people all over the world, we should sometimes be more understanding of the problems with which ambitious young people are faced. I therefore ask for recognition of the fact that this kind of phenomenon is not limited to South Africa, but that the other countries of the world also produce their Peter Hains and Red Dannys and that the blood which sometimes flows on campuses flows in the East and everywhere else in the world. I think that a proper understanding could be of great value to all of us, preventing us from making hasty judgments or becoming panicky.

I know that in politics one is inclined to score political points. Now I want to appeal to hon. members by saying that we should avoid this as far as possible in our approach to this delicate department. I can tell hon. members from the bottom of my heart that I think the average South African, of whatever political persuasion—of course there will always be exceptions, but the exceptions prove the rule—mean well by this country, and by this I include people whose skin is a different colour from yours or mine. Hon. members opposite, too, mean well by this country in which we live. I do not think they are seeking its destruction. It depends on us, the older people, to guide our young people in the direction which will enable them, when the time is ripe, to create a happier future for themselves than the world we live in today. I trust that the debate we are about to conduct will also be conducted in that spirit.

It may help if I sound a positive note at the outset I want to do so by giving this House a brief historical survey of the department’s activities. This may help us to arrive at a better understanding of the present situation. As Minister I want to promise that I am not going to spend my time reminding the Opposition of the war years or accusing them of never having done anything for education. I take no pleasure in lengthy arguments about things which happened long ago. I do not think it serves any purpose. [Interjections.] I think the times require us to consider these matters in a serious frame of mind, and at the same time, I want to ask the hon. member for Umhlanga, a man whom I respect, not to gesticulate so unnecessarily and make interjections. I want to ask him to show a little understanding when we are dealing with these matters.

I was agreeing with you.

If the hon. member agrees, then, may I ask him in all friendliness, since this is my baptism of fire, to agree with me less noisily. I want to give the House a brief historical survey in the hope that this may lead to a calm discussion and to a better understanding of the situation in which we find ourselves, and especially of the problems which we as political parties will have to face together. As far as my department and I are concerned, we are not only going to approach these matters together in the fields where there is agreement between us as political parties, but also together with those people whom we serve, i.e. the Black children of South Africa. We must also have understanding for their thinking.

†I think I can state, without fear of contradiction, that I know of no other department that has had a more chequered and inconstant history than the Department of Education and Training, or Bantu Education, or whatever it was called in the past.

*Whatever Governments were responsible for it, whoever must accept responsibility for it, must realize that it is an indisputable fact that there was a time in the past when the education and training of the Black native nations in South Africa occupied a very small place at the back of the queue, as it did in the rest of Africa. I just want to mention in passing that with the establishment of Union in South Africa in 1910, control over and administration of education—everything except higher education—were entrusted to the provincial authorities for a period of five years. It proved to be so unimportant that after this period of five years, it was decided that the provinces would de facto continue with the work. That was the situation up to 1925. Only then did a new dispensation come into operation, and then, for the first time, did the Union Government make contributions available to the provinces in order to provide funds for the education of Blacks. The method that was followed was to establish a development fund and to allocate to it a percentage of the direct taxes paid by Blacks. But the administration of education was left in the hands of the provinces and enjoyed no priority in the activities of the central Government. The next change only took place in 1945 with the passing of the Native Education Finance Act. In terms of that measure, the financing of education for Blacks was entrusted to the hon. the Minister of Education, Arts and Science. Basically, however, it made no difference whatsoever to the education in any direct sense.

In 1953, the Bantu Education Act was passed by the then National Government. That Act provided for the transfer of the administration and control of all education services for Blacks from the respective provincial authorities to the central Government with effect from 1 January 1954. [Interjections.] The then Department of Native Affairs assumed responsibility and established a division for Black education. Higher education, and especially university training, have a history of their own which I should have liked to relate to hon. members. However, it would take too long, and in any event, there are other hon. members who will discuss this. However, I may just point out that in 1959, with the extension of University Education Act, university training for Blacks was also placed under the control of the Department of Bantu Education. If there are people who allege that this Act no longer meets the present-day needs, I want to concede at once that they are right. I want to say at once that it rapidly became clear, from the scope and responsibility of the functions of the division, that even at that time there was justification for a separate Government department. This became a reality in October 1958.

However, this issue was so complicated that there was a whole series of commissions of inquiry. I shall not bore hon. members with the details. In this connection I shall only refer, however, to the University Commission of 1914, the commission on provincial administrations of 1915, the Economic Native Commission of 1932, the interdepartmental commission on Native education of 1935-’36—also known as the Wells Commission—and the Native Education Commission of 1949-’51. This commission is known to us all as the Eiselen Commission I think it may be necessary for me to quote from the recommendations of this commission, because the recommendations of the Eiselen commission formed the basis for the policy which was formulated at that time.

There are things contained in that Act that can certainly no longer be justified under the present circumstances. [Interjections.] However, I want to make it quite clear at once that under the circumstances prevailing at the time when the Act was passed—I have tried to make a study of them—I am convinced that if it were compared with the education laws in the rest of Africa and in all developing countries, it would be seen to have been the best legislation at that time in any Black educational institution in the whole of Africa. [Interjections.] We may differ about that.

How do you apply that criterion?

I say this on the basis of having compared it with the statements of leaders of the OAU, Unesco educational leaders and others. I also base it on the results that were produced. Even though we have a backlog in South Africa which cannot be defended and which must be removed to place it on a par with White education, our education for Blacks in South Africa—and this should be a source of pride to every White South African and deserves the gratitude of every Black South African—is the best, percentage-wise, and far superior to that in the rest of Africa. The hon. member knows that these are not my figures, but the figures of Unesco and of the OAU.

So we need not debate that. To anyone who doubts it I shall give the percentages in respect of each of those countries, from the reports of Unesco and not from the statistics of the Republic of South Africa.

Comparisons are odious.

I agree with the hon. member. There are people who say that comparisons are odious. If I say that we compare favourably with the rest of Africa, it does not mean that I am satisfied with what is being done and what has been achieved. I think we still have a great task here. Comparisons are odious at all times. In order to grasp the magnitude of the task facing us I would much rather compare what we want to achieve with what we have achieved so far.

That is it. Now you are talking.

I want to repeat what I have said on numerous occasions. There is a big task ahead of all of us. In making comparisons we should at all times take cognizance of the aspirations and the wishes of the Black people themselves. Therefore the standard of what we offer our Black children should be compared with the standard of that which we offer our White children. [Interjections.]

I agree.

I think we should also take note of what the Eiselen Commission laid down as foundation stone at the time of its report. I should like to know whether any hon. member in this House disagrees with the sentiments expressed in that commission’s report.

*We find it in the objectives of the Department of Black Education, objectives which are based on a standpoint of principle which I still support today, and if anyone disagrees with me, I am prepared to debate the matter. The Act to which I referred was based on recommendation 765 in the report of the Eiselen Commission. We find it on page 130 of the report, as follows—

1. (a) From the viewpoint of the whole society the aim of Bantu education is the development of a modem progressive culture, with social institutions which will be in harmony with one another and with the evolving conditions of life to be met in South Africa, and with the schools which must serve as effective agents in this process of development

Can any hon. member disagree with this?

1. (b) From the viewpoint of the individual the aims of Bantu education are the development of character and intellect, and the equipping of the child for his future work and surroundings. To harmonize the individual and social viewpoints as stated above it is essential to consider the language of the pupils, their home conditions, their social and mental environment, their cultural traits and their future position and work in South Africa.

Is there anyone who can disagree with this?

[Inaudible.]

What we shall have to admit, of course, is that these things were held up as the ideal and that this ideal has not yet been realized. Therefore we have to work in that direction in order to realize it as soon as possible.

Hon. members therefore have the right to ask me what we are doing and intend to do in this connection. I should be able to mention a few positive aspects, aspects about which I suppose not all hon. members are equally well informed. However, I shall not bore hon. members with a long discourse. In any event, more will be said about this by hon. members on this side of the House. The co-operation of hon. members of the Education and Training study group has meant a very great deal to me in the short time I have occupied this post I am grateful to them for the thorough study they have made of a very difficult subject, a study in which they are still engaged. I want to confirm most emphatically here today that if we are all serious in our intention to introduce compulsory education for all the Black children on the same level as that enjoyed by the White children in our country as soon as possible, much larger amounts of money will be required in the future. In addition, hard work lies ahead for all of us in order to ensure that the money that is made available, in an economic situation which we cannot always control, is always utilized in the best and most effective way. It is with hesitation, and yet with great gratitude— because I have discussed this with Black leaders—that I say today that I have made it the objective of my department—as my predecessor also did in his declaration of intent—that the regulation of Black education should always take place in consultation with the Black parents, with their co-operation and with their advice.

If there is one thing which is needed for the young people of the world today—and perhaps for the adults too—it is that discipline should be restored. However, discipline can only be restored if we rely not only on corporal punishment and coercive measures, but also on the co-operation of parents, teachers and all those who take an interest in the welfare of their fellow-man. In addition to all the aids we use to achieve this purpose, we also need the help of every Black parent and every Black leader. I want to say to them in this House today that I am grateful for the co-operation I have received from them since I took up this post Black children will not be so willing to listen to me as to their own parents and their own leaders, not even—we may as well say this to one another —if we belong to the PFP, the NRP or the SAP. They prefer to listen to their own people. I want all of us to convey the message to Black parents that there are too few classrooms and too few schools and that every school which the children bum down further reduces that number. And schools are what we need. Every classroom which is destroyed means that another 40 children are left without accommodation in which to prepare themselves for their future. I therefore plead that we should not be guilty of any double talk in this connection. I shall try to do anything for the Black children of this country, but one thing we cannot tolerate, and that is lawless behaviour. If there are conditions which are not satisfactory, then the door of the department and my door as Minister are always open to them. We shall try to find a solution to every reasonable problem, but stone-throwing and arson solve no problems. I will not allow law-abiding Black children to suffer because of the conduct of a number of lawless ones. This is not intended as a threat I want to repeat my thanks to Black parents for their assistance up to now. With that kind of co-operation, to which I shall refer again later, things can be done which can only be done if the necessary mutual goodwill exists.

We are very fortunate this year in having a budget which allows us to hope that we shall be able to make very rapid progress. Hon. members who have studied the figures have probably seen the increase in the amount allocated to this department. The amount has been increased from R143 million in last year’s budget to almost R182 million in this year’s budget. This is an increase of 26%, and then I am not counting the amounts spent by the Department of Public Works, the amounts allocated to us by the Department of Community Development and the work done on a voluntary basis by organizations such as the Urban Foundation and others that have rendered valuable assistance to us in this connection. Means have been made available to us which will enable us to move ahead.

However, there are a few things I cannot promise. In the first place, there will be those who will ask—and there are those who have already asked—for a time-table, for a five-year plan or a ten-year plan.

†I want to say quite clearly so that there can be no misunderstanding about it: I am not going to promise anybody anything which I am not sure I can achieve. I am certainly not going to promise that in ten years’ time we shall have compulsory free education, or whatever it is called. I cannot promise that when I do not even know what our economic position in this country would be like next year. Let us at all times consider that our country, perhaps more than any other country in the world, can be affected by boycotts and even by threats of boycotts. Let us agree with one another that it is a fact that the first to be affected in times of adversity are not the rich, but the poorer people. The first to suffer when boycotts are brought against this country, will be those served by the department in which I stand. Let it also be understood that if there are threats of boycotts and acts of sabotage, neither I nor anybody else will be able to guarantee for one moment that we shall be able to stop a growing feeling of resentment on the part of those who have been providing the funds up to now. I appeal to all peace-loving people not to allow this to happen.

In the second place I cannot offer the Black people the assurance that we shall soon provide facilities equal to those which the Whites in this country enjoy. At the moment we do not have the funds, and I do not think anybody would be so irresponsible as to suggest that we should take away from the Whites in order to give to others. However fair it may sound, let us remember that one cannot take away from people that which you have already given them. Possession still remains nine points of the law, and it applies here as in any other sphere of life.

*We cannot take things away from other people and distribute them here. However, I believe that we shall get things going sooner if everyone co-operates and if we receive the necessary goodwill from everyone.

I want to inform hon. members briefly of what we have tried to do up to now to obtain co-operation and what we intend to do in the weeks and months to come. Consultations have been held on several occasions with officials of the department and with other departments to enlist their aid. It may be news to hon. members that the Defence Force has made available the services of many of our soldiers on the border to teach in Ovambo and Kavango in emergencies. The Department of Public Works goes out of its way to help us with buildings, and I can give the assurance that the Department of Community Development has an open hand for us and that we can confidently approach the Treasury if we need additional funds. We are always sympathetically received there.

Where these negotiations are proceeding, I want to say in the second place that we have asked the Public Service Commission to make a thorough study of the staff requirements of the department. In response to our request, the Public Service Commission has already submitted to us its first interim report. From this report it appears that major adjustments will have to be made at head office to enable us to do the work properly. I want to quote from this first report, which deals only with the functions of head office. Perhaps the problems we are faced with will be better appreciated then. It reads—

The report goes on to say—

This is a quotation from the report of the Public Service Commission.

†Perhaps even more significant are certain figures I want to furnish in relation to the different departments, figures which speak for themselves. Once again, comparisons are odious, but I think it should be noted that at the present moment this department is responsible for the tuition at the primary, secondary and tertiary levels of 4,5 million enrolled pupils. Compare that with the total White pupil population of 1,25 million, and one must bear in mind that we have four provincial departments of education as well as the Department of National Education catering for these pupils. The Coloured school-going population consists of 722 000 children and the Indian school-going population of 214 000. I think that gives one an idea of the immensity of the task with which this department has to cope.

What is, in the third place, of primary importance to us is our discussions with the Black leaders. I have to report to the House that, after a long study, on 11 May this year we held discussions with the Chief Ministers, the Commissioners-General and the Ministers of Education of the various Black States.

*We conducted very cordial and fruitful negotiations. A memo from these Black leaders is being awaited which should enable us, with proper consultation, to achieve greater uniformity between the examinations, sillabi and similar matters in the Black States and in the White areas. I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact—perhaps I should first address myself to this side of the House—that the policy of the Government still is that there should be development of the Black areas. I believe in that policy. I want to say that thousands of Black people have the attitude towards the Black States that they would voluntarily go there, indeed, that they are anxious to go there, if there is a future for their children. The colour of our skins may differ, but very often our hearts do not differ very greatly. Just as the White parent wants his child to achieve more than he himself has been able to achieve, the Black parent wants this too. I think we should consider their feelings in this connection and give priority to them.

I can also report that we have fortunately established the necessary co-operation with the Education Council which, as hon. members will know, consists largely of Blacks and which meets four times a year; that meetings are being held with the Secretaries for Education to discuss matters of common interest; and that the Examination Board, which also consists of leaders from the Black States and from the White areas, is performing an enormous task in this connection in order to arrive at a better understanding of one another’s problems. In the fourth place, we now have the Education and Training Bill before a Select Committee of Parliament. I want to thank the members of the NP study group and the officials for their studies. We have tried to act as fairly as possible in respect of this matter. The honour of having this Bill published belongs to my predecessor, the present hon. Minister of National Education, and I think we are all grateful to know that he will be just as conscientious an administrator of Transvaal as he was a Minister. At the same time, I want to congratulate the Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees on his appointment as Administrator of the Free State. The present hon. Minister of National Education initiated the work which led to the introduction of the Education and Training Bill.

†I want to thank all those who submitted memorandums. Some of them were highly critical of the proposals contained in the Bill, and they did not mince their words. I thank them for their criticism because I believe that criticism can at all times be helpful if it is given in a constructive manner, as was done here and I want to express a special word of thanks to the members of the Opposition who kindly agreed to serve on the Select Committee. They give their co-operation to enable us to have this Bill become an Act of Parliament, we hope, before the end of this session. This is definitely needed in the interests of the Black children. I do not say it will be a perfect Act, but at least I, and the hon. members serving on the committee, have no doubt that it will be a great improvement on what we have at present. If required, we can improve at a later stage on what the Select Committee suggests to us. I have to point out that after the passing of this Bill and when it becomes an Act, we will need the regulations which will enable us to carry out the provisions contained in the Bill. Therefore I hope the hon. members of the Select Committee will sympathize with me when I say that there is still a lot of work to be done after their work has been completed.

*The next point that I just want to mention in passing—other hon. members will elaborate on it—is that the Commission of Inquiry into Tertiary Education received no directions from me or the department and that it appears from reports that they are conducting a penetrating and thorough investigation. They are getting an enormous amount of information and co-operation from the educational leaders of all population groups, and I believe that a great deal of good may come of this investigation. I cannot commit the Cabinet to any decisions, but I can say that I have no doubt that very serious attention will be given to the recommendations which will be submitted to us by the Black and Brown educational people serving on the commission. That is as far as tertiary education is concerned.

However, I must point out to hon. members in this connection that quietly, almost without being noticed, spontaneous developments have taken place of which hon. members on both sides of the House should take cognizance. I know there will be talk of “verligtheid” and “verkramptheid” and other nonsense again in an attempt to destroy what is being done. In 1954, legislation was passed which was criticized by many people, but which I believe to have been the best under those circumstances, and which achieved very positive results. Hon. members may disagree about that if they wish. This spontaneously developed into primary education, not only up to the broad level of standard 2 as the final stage, therefore, but into primary education. In 1968-’69 this advanced irresistibly to the secondary level, and in 1970, with the establishment of Black universities, the tertiary level was emphasized. I listened on Saturday to a speech by Chief Minister Buthelezi of kwaZulu in which he expressed his joy about that development in no uncertain terms.

I cannot assume responsibility for this portfolio without saying that I have only appreciation for the dedicated work done by ex-Minister M. C. Botha in the department in the face of much criticism. I shall remember him as one of the most diligent and dedicated people I have ever been privileged to work with.

I just want to mention a few minor matters. I want to say that we were faced with a few urgent problems at the beginning of the year. I am not saying this to show hon. members what we have done and what we have achieved, but to show what can be done if there is co-operation. On 16 December 1978, we were faced with an emergency in Soweto caused by the burning down of schools in 1976. An amount was allocated to the board responsible for repairing these buildings. For financial reasons, however, the people could not accept those loans, so the work was not done. These conditions prevailed during the builders’ holiday, but within three days, the East Rand and West Rand Administration Boards, the board of the Vaal Triangle and the municipality of Johannesburg had their work-teams ready, consisting of Whites and Blacks, with the result that when the schools had to open, the damage to those schools had been repaired. For two years, 14 000 Black children had to go to school under the most difficult circumstances, while other Black children had to stay away from their schools, with the result that their school education was delayed by two years because of the wilfulness of children who had burnt down schools, the wilfulness of agitators, but perhaps also because of our reluctance to understand that we sometimes punish innocent people. I am glad to be able to say that almost 14 000 Black children returned to school at the beginning of the year and are now continuing their scholastic careers.

The Administration Board in the Cape Peninsula was faced with the same kind of emergency. With the co-operation of the Urban Foundation and with the help of a fund established by one of the newspapers, however, we were able to do all this work. A number of classrooms were added on to avoid an emergency and to enable children to return at once to continue their scholastic careers. I thank those people who co-operated and who I am sure will co-operate with us in the future.

Having said all these things, hon. members must not think that I am satisfied.

†I am not complacent and self-satisfied about achievements, but worried about the immensity of the task ahead. However, I regard it as a challenge. I know that we shall succeed. With the co-operation of parents, teachers, local school committees and of communities we shall succeed. I shall go out of my way to enlist their support. My department and its officials have been doing this all along and we shall continue in this manner. I may say that it is regarded as trivial when we debate across the floor of the House whether we should have mixed football teams or not. There are those who say that the Black peoples must be provided—and I agree with them—with their own amenities and their own fields. Yes, I agree with that. I should like to see them have it at the schools and elsewhere. However, I want to get at something else. The hon. member for Houghton need not worry; this is not criticism directed at her, but at myself.

I did not quite catch what you said.

I said to myself that it is all very well saying that they must be provided with it. But it is no use saying that, unless one provides it. I want to say that we have to enlist the support of many people to provide just these things which we think should be provided. Let them have their separate facilities, equal facilities and all the things they need. The schools cannot merely be places of learning; they must be places of culture too, places where characters are formed. They need their libraries in the same way as White children need them.

*South Africa is a microcosm of the world, actually a laboratory of the world. I am thinking of the potential of this country, of our mineral wealth and of the yet uncultivated regions where we can practise agriculture, and of all the things we can do in this beautiful fatherland of ours, but our greatest wealth does not lie deep under the earth. Our greatest wealth, our finest wealth, lies in our people, and by “our people” I mean all the people of South Africa. This human material must be developed and it must be developed to the advantage of South Africa as a whole. We need leaders. We need leaders in the Black communities. How are we going to develop the infrastructure of the homelands if these people are not developed? We can have the best engine in the world, but if we do not have the man to drive that engine, the engine may just as well be left on the rails. We can have the finest telephone exchange, but if there is no one who can repair and operate that telephone exchange, then it is worthless and no one can use it. We can have the finest administration, but if there is no one to do the administrative work in the Black States, then it serves no purpose for us to give land or anything to be neglected. We can give them the finest farm-lands, but if they do not have the training to use those farm-lands for cultivating their food, then it will serve no purpose, then we have let South Africa’s precious soil go to waste. Whatever we do for the Black man to give him the opportunities which we enjoy, do let us remember that the time is past when people were reproached for giving things away. One is not giving them away to people for nothing; one is giving them away for South Africa. One is not giving them to the Black people; one is giving them for the future of South Africa.

This department would like to do its duty as a service department knowing that we are not handing out alms and do not intend to hand out alms. We must put a stop to that, because it is humiliating to anyone. A Black man also has his pride.

†There is a Chinese proverb that says: “To give a man a fish is to feed him for a day, but to teach a man to fish is to feed him for a lifetime.” I think that is not only our duty, but also the privilege of everyone working in this department.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister will appreciate that I shall not be able to respond to every point he has made. He has spoken for a longer time than the entire Opposition has to speak in this entire debate. On that note I should like to ask the privilege of the half-hour.

My first responsibility, duty and pleasure is to welcome the hon. the Minister to his new responsibility. As he himself has outlined it, it is an enormous challenge, a great opportunity, and I wish him well. I had the pleasure of meeting the hon. the Minister long before I went into politics myself, when he still was a Deputy Minister. I enjoyed that experience, and I look forward to debating with him, his colleagues and his department on matters which are so very vital and important for all of us in South Africa. I also want to say that we are of course grateful for the work of his predecessor and I should like to associate myself with his remarks about Mr. Cruywagen’s appointment as the Administrator of the Transvaal. We shall miss him, and we wish him well. The hon. the Deputy Minister of Plural Relations is still in this department, but at the rate Ministers come and go these days we just do not know how long he is going to be with us. However, let me say that I look forward to debating with him too and I hope that he will be here for a little time until he gets the elevation that I am sure that everybody else expects.

Us dominees must stick together!

That is right. We have a very theological group here, and I am very glad that we at least have one good theologian on this side to put the other two right—or, at least, to put them left.

We are interested in the announcements that have been made by the hon. the Minister, and particularly in the fact that he stressed that we must move with all deliberate speed towards compulsory and free education for all children in South Africa. We understand the problems in this regard, although I must say I found his description of the future in terms of the difficulties that lie ahead, whilst they may well be realistic, incredibly depressing as well, especially when he talked about not even being able to reach the goal ten years from now.

His comments on the destruction of schools were well taken. We do not support any destruction of schools by fire or by stoning, and I am glad that the hon. the Minister pointed out that we all need to learn from this experience. I hope, however, that when he makes the point that it is impossible to take from Whites in order to give to Blacks, he does not mean that we Whites, who have known such privileges for so long, will not also have to learn to share this country with all its inhabitants, because otherwise that which we have, will be taken away from us. About that we can be quite sure.

We also express our very sincere appreciation to the department and its officials, and in particular to the Secretary, Mr. Rossouw. In all our dealings with him he has been courteous and helpful. I want to say especially that the production of this mammoth report for 1978, so early in the year, is a remarkable achievement. This is a Herculean task, and we commend the department, the Secretary and the officials for the work which they have done. It would be impossible for me to touch upon every aspect of this report. I have read it with some care, and I shall obviously be reading it again as we meet in the Select Committee on the new Bill. I do want to refer to one page in particular, and I would ask the hon. the Minister whether he will respond a little later in the debate to a reference that is made on page 103 in para. 6.2.5, “The standard of teaching”. I quote from the second paragraph—

The paragraph ends with this statement—

I am not sure whether the hon. the Minister is in receipt of that report yet, but this is obviously a most significant report for it will give us some guidelines as to the costs in terms of time, money and manpower which will be necessary to fulfil some of the major commitments of this very large department. By means of one further reference to the report, a reference to the introduction I want to underline the importance of the fact that the Government now sees Education and Training as a completely separate portfolio. The hon. the Minister himself has quoted figures that underline the contrast between this and other education departments. We must remember, however, that the task of this department also includes the following (para. 1.1)—

One then realizes just how difficult and how challenging this task is, and we wish the hon. the Minister and the department well with all its work.

The hon. the Minister will recall my expression of appreciation, which I stand by, when he announced in this House earlier on that the new Education and Training Bill would be referred to a Select Committee before Second Reading. He will appreciate, however, that it does present somewhat of a dilemma to the Opposition when we have to discuss the Vote of the hon. the Minister and his department in the middle of an intensive discussion at Select Committee level on what is not merely an amendment Bill, but what is going to be a new principal Act. This touches on every important aspect of training and education for Blacks. Therefore, it is very difficult indeed not to anticipate the findings of that Select Committee. I shall, however, do my utmost not to do that.

No one will want to deny that education is of paramount importance in the Black community. Whenever one speaks to Blacks, this is one of the things that comes through loud and clear: We want our children to have a better education than we have had. That is an expression one hears not only from the Black community but, I imagine, from communities anywhere in the world. This view has not only been expressed by Blacks, it is only unique to the Black community: I believe that all groups in South Africa seek the best possible education for their children and, indeed, for the adults. Education for all is important, not merely to the different groups, but to South Africa as a whole. The hon. the Minister was absolutely right when he said that, when we talk about providing education for Blacks, we are not merely talking about Blacks, but about the good of South Africa as a whole. With the release of the report of the Wiehahn Commission, coupled with the Government’s White Paper on that report, and the tabling of the report of the Riekert Commission, all of us must surely be acutely aware of the urgent need for change, not merely to the peripheral areas but to the basic structures which affect education and training for all. From the hon. the Minister of Finance down, strong emphasis has also been laid on the need for increased growth in the economy of South Africa and on the fact that one of the essential ingredients that will make this possible is a rapid increase in the number of skilled workers available to our economy.

Therefore, I suggest that we stand today at a new crossroads in South Africa. A number of very far-reaching decisions will have to be taken by the Government, the Opposition and all of us. I submit that many of these decisions impinge on education and training for all South Africans, but more especially, because of the historic situation in which we find ourselves, for Blacks. One of the major reasons for this is that in the past the emphasis has been on extending the number of children attending school, while not nearly so great an emphasis was placed on the quality of the education they receive in those schools. I think it is fair to say that it is only in recent times that there has been a concerted effort to improve not only the quantity of education, but to improve the quality at the top as much as the expansion of the base. One has only to contrast the number of Black children in lower primary, primary and secondary schools with those in matric and those attending university to appreciate the significance of this. This is a historical dilemma and we have to resolve it.

A further dimension of this is that we are concerned here not merely with the recognition that education is a fundamental right for all children, irrespective of race and colour, or even the awareness that it is in our own self-interest to provide the best possible education and training for all so that our economy can continue to recover and to grow, but that the more perceptive in South Africa will realize that education and training is central to continued peace and calm in South Africa. That is how important it is. I do not think I overestimate it. We therefore have to do not merely with facts and figures, with budgets and buildings, but also with the future destiny of our country and therefore the destiny of all of us. That is how important I believe this department is. Unless we begin to see it in those terms, I think we are doing ourselves a grave disservice.

I want to repeat that no one would wish to deny the aspirations of Blacks to obtain the best possible education for their children. The Department of Education and Training itself has certainly demonstrated this by the sweeping changes and the overall improvements which have come about I simply do not have the time at my disposal to refer to reference on almost every page of this massive report, reference of improvement, of changes, of developments which are taking place all the time, developments for all. Therefore, the department must be commended and congratulated. One only has to look at the annual report and to contrast the amounts spent on Black education, for example during 1972-’73, which was in excess of R72 million, with the amount available in 1978-’79, which is in excess of R210 million, to realize that this is a very significant increase. It is very significant, particularly if one bears in mind that this excludes capital expenditure at universities. Now, there has been additional finance available. New classrooms have been built. However, I must say that I am absolutely delighted to know that the classrooms which were destroyed during the riots and uprisings of 1976 and 1977 have now been repaired. I raised this matter in the debate on this Vote last year. I had been to see some of those schools. I saw this daily evidence of what had happened and I thought then that it was a bad thing. I am very delighted, not only because it presents better facilities, but also because it wipes out this constant reminder of something which we do not want to live through again ever in South Africa. So, despite all the improvements on every side, the hon. the Minister will agree with me when I say that there is an enormous gap between what is taking place and what still has to be done. One simple statistic will give force to this assertion. In a question that I put to the hon. the Minister earlier this session his reply made it clear that the per capita expenditure on Black pupils in the Republic—that is excluding the Black States and excluding expenditure of a capital nature—was a mere R48,99 for pupils in primary schools, and R93,42 for pupils in secondary and high schools, during the financial year 1977-’78. We know that this is in sorry contrast with the per capita expenditure on White children.

Surely that is not the only aspect that is involved.

This is very important. The hon. the Minister himself says that comparisons are odious. However, when will we ever learn that it is no good telling the Black children of South Africa to go and have a look at Nigeria? It does not help at all. They go and have a look at the schools in Johannesburg and in Cape Town. Therefore they ask to share in what the White children have. They are prepared to work for it. They are prepared to give for it. They are prepared to earn it. They should just be given an opportunity. That is the point I want to make. The hon. the Minister himself made that point. So, if the hon. member for Verwoerdburg wants to quarrel, he should quarrel with the hon. the Minister.

No, I want to quarrel with you. [Interjections.]

Now, this is obviously one of the main reasons for the new Education and Training Act. The present Act is simply not good enough for our modem day. Therefore we have a new Act.

I will have a great deal to say about that Act in the Select Committee. I have already done so and I will continue to do so. I will have even more to say when we debate it here in the House. I may say that I do want some re-assurance from the hon. the Minister. He has told us that the reason for the tremendous haste in the Select Committee is because that Bill is going to come before the House during this very session. I was a little worried when he said “Well, hopefully, or in all possibility”. I hope he is going to tell us now that that Bill is going to come before the House, even if we sit until Christmas-time. [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

Right Thank you very much indeed. The hon. the Minister will know that most of the deep-rooted cynicism and suspicion in the Black community has come about regarding the old structures of Black education and that they will be the first to welcome the new deal. He knows something about that suspicion. One only has to converse with Black leaders, teachers or even young people to know this. Because of the past years of neglect and future demands there is what I can only describe as a cry from the heart of Black educationists, Black teachers, Black leaders, Black parents and Black young people, and it can be summed up in a sentence: We ask for nothing less than equal educational opportunities for our children, opportunities equal to those which you want for your children. I think this is a reasonable request. It is, however, much more than just an academic point. It is not just part of a political quarrel they might be engaged in with the Government, with the Opposition or with Whites in general. It is a veritable cry from the heart. They believe that until such time as that takes place, they themselves will not be able to take their rightful place in the land of their birth.

Surely that is not true. You know it is not true.

It is my belief that Blacks—and I want to say this very seriously before I sit down—will never accept that they have equal educational opportunities as long as there exists a separate Department of Education and Training for Blacks. [Interjections.] I say that—and I shall have more to say about it on the appropriate occasion—not because we do not want a Minister of the calibre of Mr. Punt Janson or Dr. Treurnicht One is fully aware of the fact that one is talking about a massive problem in this regard and that one needs all the resources possible to deal with it. I believe, however, that until this happens we shall continue to have the cynicism and the suspicion that lurk in the hearts and minds of so many Blacks today. [Interjections.] I know that the hon. the Minister, the hon. the Deputy Minister and other hon. members on that side of the House will not accept this at this time.

Never!

I am convinced, however, that this is the direction in which we must go and shall go, despite that “verkrampte” member over there who says “Never”. I ask him to remember those who have said “Never” before. Look at what happened to them. [Interjections.] To that end, rather than merely accepting my word, or the opinion or view of that side of the House, let this hon. Minister—and I formally call upon him to do so—use his influence and his good offices to urge the Cabinet to appoint a commission of inquiry into the future educational needs of all South Africans. I ask that because if one carefully reads the reports of the Wiehahn Commission and the Riekert Commission, one sees that there is no way for us to go on as we are in our independent structures. We have to find a way forward, and I believe that the only way we are going to do it is by means of an in-depth investigation of the future educational needs of all South Africans and of the best possible ways of satisfying those needs. Therefore, without any qualification or apology, I urge the hon. the Minister to use his influence—I realize that that hon. Minister and that department alone cannot make it happen—to call into being, for the sake of all South Africans, a court or council of inquiry into the future educational needs of all South Africans. I believe that in doing that he would be doing us all a tremendous service.

Mr. Chairman, it was a pleasant experience to be able to listen to the hon. member for Pinelands this afternoon, although there are, of course, some things on which I differ from him. It was a pleasant experience in view of what happened during this debate last year, when the hon. member made a speech which I did not like at all.

Did you listen to it?

But I shall leave the matter at that. I shall come back to certain statements made by the hon. member at a later stage.

First of all I want to associate myself with the hon. member for Pinelands when, on behalf of this side of the House, I convey our sincere congratulations to the hon. the Minister on his appointment as Minister in this, as far as I am concerned, extremely important portfolio of Education and Training. I think it is very clear to everyone in this House that he means well with education and training. What he has already told the committee today gave us an idea of his exceptional interest, and on behalf of this side of the House I want to wish him every success over the years granted him to occupy this exceptionally important portfolio.

I should also like to associate myself with the hon. member for Pinelands when I convey my special thanks to the department, the Secretary and those who assist him, for the exceptionally brilliant services they are rendering in the department. The services of other departments may be just as good, but I doubt whether we could get better and more dedicated services than we do in this department also in respect of their attitude to us as members of Parliament and probably to hon. Senators in the Other Place as well.

I also want to associate myself with the hon. member for Pinelands when I refer to this fine annual report. It is an absolute mine of information. I want to agree with the hon. member that one needs a great deal of time to absorb what is contained in it completely. I should very much like to congratulate the department most sincerely on it I think it is an exceptional achievement.

Before I elaborate further on the speech made by the hon. member for Pinelands, I want to refer to the estimates pursuant to the idea expressed by the hon. the Minister. It is true that for the entire department we received an allocation of R181 million in round figures. Of that sum approximately R171 million has been earmarked solely for education and the universities. If one examines the estimates as a whole, one finds that if it does not represent the very highest increase, it is, in fact, one of the highest when compared with the various departmental estimates for the previous financial year. We thank the hon. the Minister of Finance most sincerely for that But I think that at the end of this debate it will be very clear to everyone listening to the comprehensive nature of the department that even those estimates, although one is sincerely grateful for them and understands why in view of all our country’s priorities the funds are limited, will have to be increased even further in future.

I want to link this idea to the speech by the hon. member for Pinelands. He saw fit to raise the matter of the expenditure per capita again. I do not want to accuse the hon. member of wilfulness, particularly not since he argued certain things so calmly and quietly and also in an educational way—for which I congratulate him most sincerely—but when he comes forward with the expenditure per capita, surely he knows it is an impossible method to compare the expenditure per capita of Black and White education as they are at present. There are various reasons for my saying that this is impossible.

I said so myself.

Wait a minute. The most important of these factors is that the advanced type of education for Whites differs at this stage from that for the Black people in the sense that among the Blacks one has a very high percentage of pupils who are still in primary school in comparison with White education. On the other hand there is a smaller percentage of pupils in secondary schools in Black education in comparison with White education. That, surely, is why such a comparison surely cannot be made. What is more: We hear this story of the per capita comparison year after year, but in the meanwhile the hon. member himself said that the estimates this year had shown a fine increase. In the years ahead, the expenditure per capita will, of course, improve owing to the fact that there is an annual increase in the appropriation.

Nevertheless I want to point out to the hon. member that if we were to do what the hon. member suggested—last year I took the trouble to calculate this—and allocated exactly the same appropriation to Black education as to White education as it is available in the Transvaal, it would have meant that we would have required the phenomenal additional amount of R700 million for Black education in the White areas alone. For Black education is self-governing areas we would have required an additional R200 million. Therefore we would have required an additional R900 million.

Surely this shows very clearly that although it is the endeavour of this side of the House, as has so often been proven and as the hon. member conceded himself, to improve the education of the Black people—we are moving in that direction—we cannot, as a result of the enormous figures involved, achieve this in one or two years’ time. I hope the hon. member will not point out the per capita expenditure again next year, unless he can come and say on that occasion that the per capita expenditure has diminished in comparison with the previous year. If he is able to say that, he will have a case, but otherwise he surely does not have a case.

I shall reply to that today, not next year.

Very well, the hon. member can do so.

The hon. member once again saw fit to raise the matter of a separate department for Black education. As the hon. member said, the Select Committee is dealing with that at present. The hon. member said that the Black man would never accept that his education was on an equal footing with that of the Whites as long as there were separate education departments. He argued that the Black man would only accept this if all education departments were grouped together under one national department of education. I beg to differ with the hon. member. Even if the various branches of education were placed under one department of education, one would still hear the argument and reproach from the Black people that they had an inferior education as long as we did not have adequate funds to make up with the backlog being experienced by the Department of Education and Training at present very rapidly, and to effect parity with the Whites. The hon. member is entitled to differ with me, just as I am entitled to differ with him. That is why I am arguing with him on this matter. There is a second argument which one could advance. If one, as the hon. member wants, were to create one education department, certain very important educational principles would be affected in this process. We cannot escape that fact. But I do not want to go into this matter in depth today. This is a matter we can discuss when the hon. the Minister, as he indicated, introduces the relevant legislation at a later stage of this session. Consequently I shall leave it at that.

As far as the hon. member is concerned, I finally want to say that I gladly associate myself with him when he very strongly emphasized the importance of the department and of Black education in our multinational country, particularly, too, with regard to the many employment opportunities which ultimately have to be found for Whites, Coloureds and Blacks. Having said that, I want to say at once that the time has arrived for everyone in this country—Whites as well as people of colour—to realize the heterogeneous and homogeneous nature of the education being given to the various groups. Education in Germany, in Italy, in France, in independent Black States such as the Transkei and education in the Republic of South Africa are all based on certain fundamental educational principles, but also have a homogeneous element from which no one can escape. Because this is the case, it would be wrong simply to want to compare White education in the Republic of South Africa with Black education. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am merely rising to give the hon. member the opportunity to complete his speech.

I want to thank the hon. member for Pinelands for the opportunity. [Interjections.] I said that education for the separate population groups had a homogeneous character. Now it is true—and I am very grateful for that—that in this regard the Government means well with Black education, for which it accepts responsibility, and wants to base it on a sound educational principle. That is why it is also stipulated that the education of Black people, too, should have a Christian character—and let us not go into details today on the concept of “Christian character”. When we say that it should have a Christian character, we know that this is associated with this entire country and Christian nation, a nation that wants to convey that Christian character to the various education departments, but, of course, with the retention of the right of religious freedom enjoyed by the Whites, too.

In addition it is also true that the Government would like us to maintain the sound educational principles in accordance with which one never can or wants to separate teaching and education from the cultural background of the specific nation with which one is dealing. Because this is the case, it follows that the Government also commits itself to the universally acknowledged principle of mother-tongue education, winch is a part of it Unfortunately time does not allow me to read to hon. members that Unesco and many other important educationalists from various other countries, as well as Whites and people of colour in our own country who endorse this principle, have to say about this matter. It is a pity that—and the hon. member must pardon me—I sometimes get the impression that a little politics is being dragged in when the discussion of … [Interjections.] I am not saying that the hon. member did so in this House today. The impression I get outside, is that there is a little politicking in respect of the principle of mother-tongue language, and that it is sometimes exploited merely to cast suspicion on the Government’s good efforts to improve education for Black people. I want to continue by saying that we are dealing with …

You are talking nonsense.

The hon. member must keep quiet now. He will be given an opportunity again and then he can tell me where I have been talking nonsense.

It was mentioned a short while ago that the extent of Black education is a total of 4½ million for the White areas as well as the self-governing States, but 3½ million if the Transkei and Bophuthatswana are excluded. I want to emphasize that there would be no point in providing better and more education in an unco-ordinated way year after year without knowing what we will eventually do in respect of employment opportunities with the products which emerge through the provision of education. I shall be able to indicate to hon. members—and if I have time, I will come to that—how our education for Black people is showing excellent progress in respect of the number attending primary schools a number of years ago in comparison with the percentage of the school population who were in matric as opposed to those who are in matric now. There was an explosion with regard to the increase in the number of pupils in secondary schools in particular. It is our purpose to improve this even further. I am sure some hon. member of the Opposition is going to say just now that Dr. Verwoerd is on record in respect of certain forms of education for Black people. I want to say at once that this is an old argument. It is an argument which is not applicable to circumstances prevailing at present I am absolutely convinced that they applied at that stage, but owing to the circumstances applying now, that argument is irrelevant, and this Government has already demonstrated that Consequently I want to make the point that we should maintain a connection between the employment opportunities and the products we are eventually going to produce from the schools.

Furthermore I want to refer to the problems we have in respect of teachers. There is no point in keeping quiet about this. Everyone knows that we have a vast shortage of available, qualified Black teachers. The Opposition cannot simply lay it at the door of the Government and say that this is its fault Two or three years ago, we had exactly the same dilemma in respect of White teachers, although the problem did not perhaps exist to the same large extent. The problem in respect of White teachers has been solved, and the Government is solving the problem with regard to Black teachers in the same way. Fundamentally this still means that on the part of the Black man himself we must have firstly, the interest and secondly, the ability as well as the possibility and the means to acquire the qualifications to enable him eventually to provide the children of his own nation with the best possible education.

In White areas there are at present plus/ minus 29 000 Black teachers, 86% of whom only has Std. 8 or lower, although it is true that 71% of these teachers did receive method training for two or three years. This side of the House is not happy about this, but I can inform this House—hon. members of the Opposition know this very well—about the many different attempts being made by the Government to improve that situation. Hon. members know that a cash grant of R50 in respect of every school subject passed is being offered if a person has studied that subject by way of in-service training. Bursaries are freely available, etc. Therefore, the argument I want to advance is that although there is a shortage—this is something which does not meet with our approval—the Government is improving the situation in co-operation with the Black people, and with understanding on the part of the Opposition parties as well.

There is a further problem being experienced with regard to parental involvement Even in respect of White education it is true that we do not have the degree of parental involvement we should like to have. We do not want to draw comparisons, but it is true of course that the problem of parental involvement among Black people is more acute than that among White people. This creates a special problem. We speak so readily and easily about compulsory education now, but this at once places a responsibility on the parents as well. As we encounter this problem in White education, we shall also encounter it in Black education to a greater extent—I am saying this without being critical and derogatory. These matters must be seen in their true perspective. I think it is also the duty of Black education itself to try to activate the Black parent community to greater involvement in the education of their children, and not only with the object that the children should obtain a certificate. I am afraid that this is another problem which is being experienced in Black education in that too much emphasis is being placed purely on the attaining of a degree, a diploma or a certificate—in any possible way—simply to be able to produce it in order to obtain work, irrespective of whether the person also has the ability to perform such work.

A short while ago I referred briefly to the question of political influence. I want to thank the hon. the Minister for having, when he entered this debate at the outset, made it very clear that we should restrain ourselves from doing so. I merely wish to point out—and no one will differ with me on this issue—that a political factor was also present during the riots in Soweto in 1976 and in their aftereffects. The riots took place as a result of certain circumstances which we are not debating now … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the previous speakers who congratulated the hon. the Minister on his appointment as the Minister of Education and Training. I believe that he is capable of managing this very important portfolio with great diligence and enthusiasm. From our side, we, too, should like to wish him every success.

I also want to associate myself with the previous speakers and express my gratitude for the excellent annual report we have received from the department. To the extent that time permitted, I attempted to make a study of the contents of this annual report. It is indeed a great pleasure to have such a document before one and to study it, because it is concise, factual and to the point I thank the department for the good report.

Allow me also to express a personal word of thanks to Mr. Labuschagne, the private secretary of the Minister, and Mr. Haupt, the personal clerk of the Deputy Minister, for their support and assistance. They are often being troubled in regard to interviews which have to be held, but they are always prepared to help us. We should like to express our gratitude to them as well.

During the past few days, I took the trouble to read the speeches of the hon. member for Pinelands in Hansard. After I had read his speeches, I came to the conclusion that I was in fact reading something reminiscent of thrillers. It is something which really ought to make one feel afraid. I therefore want to ask the hon. member: What are he and his party engaged in, if one looks at the speeches he has made in this House in the past during the discussion of this Vote? What are he and his party engaged in, and where are they going when it comes to the education and training of our Black people? I believe that the education and training of the Blacks is not their primary concern: for them, Black education is a means to an end, viz. to discredit the Government by causing the Government’s good intentions to place Black education on a sound basis, to come to grief.

He and his party are aware of the fact—and I shall attempt to prove it shortly—that the Government has made phenomenal progress in the field of Black education over the past few years. The hon. member for Pinelands attempted last year to draw a comparison between White education and Black education, and he touched upon it again today. I want to refer to what he said last year in Hansard, col. 8300—

Surely that was an irresponsible statement on his part.

He knows, and his party should also know that drawing such a comparison can only cause problems. The comparison he attempts to draw between the two population groups, is surely not justified, because he is comparing things that cannot be compared. Surely there is a considerable difference between the educational development and educational level of these population groups. It is a fact that the Black man, as far as his education is concerned, is only now beginning to develop towards maturity, and we do not deny that. We know it, but that party positively does not want to accept it.

I now want to make the statement that in any process of growth and in any process of development no superficial forcefulness in pushing the growth process in an artificial and unnatural way will yield lasting and permanent results. On the contrary, such action can and will cause the development process, the growth process, to be pressed and squeezed into such premature over-ripeness that it will subsequently be necessary to reproach oneself for having acted in such an unnatural and artificial way.

Education and training is not a negotiable item with which one can trade. One does not put it on the shelf so that it can be sold in bulk, and if one sees that the supply is not getting sold, one sells it at a discount or puts it on a sale. Education is not a sale article. It is something precious, the property of a nation and a carefully tended commodity which should be treated jealously and with care. I believe that a nation is jealous of its education and that it wants to have control over it. It wants to use it to make its children of the nation. It is and remains a national treasure.

If one reads through the speeches of the hon. member for Pinelands of the past few years, it does seem as if there was a lucid moment when he said the following in 1977 (Hansard, Vol. 68, col. 6119)—

Hear, hear!

The hon. member for Pinelands can now shout “hear, hear”, but I want to submit that it is not their educational philosophy he is expounding here.

It is, man.

If that is the case, he cannot advocate having one department here. Nor can he single out education for Black people in an unnatural process of artificial growth, because if he does so, he is going to do that education an injustice …

What about English- and Afrikaans-speaking people?

The hon. member for Pinelands should rather say or ask nothing in regard to education in Afrikaans.

If that is the idiom in which the hon. member for Pinelands will allow this debate to be conducted, we can disagree about certain matters and then we can have a debate on them, for then the core and the character of education are not affected.

What are the facts in regard to education? The first fact we have to face, is that an education explosion has taken place amongst the Black people during the past few years. This is a fait accompli and we have to live with it I just want to mention a few statistics in this regard: In 1958 there were 1 335 000 students in primary and secondary schools. In 1968 the number increased to 2 388 000 and in 1978 it was 3 200 000. At the secondary level, the numbers increased from 98 600 in 1968 to 443 400 in 1978.

Order! The hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon. member the opportunity to complete his speech.

I should like to express my gratitude to the hon. member for Pinelands for the opportunity he is affording me.

The number of schools increased from 9 500 to 11 000 over the same period, while the numbers of teachers increased from 41 000 in 1968 to 66 700 in 1978. To illustrate this better, one could express the increase in the school-going population as a percentage of the total population. In 1958 it was 12,5%; in 1968, 15,91%; and in 1979, 20,5%. I therefore do not think it is necessary to draw a comparison with other countries again today. The hon. member for Pinelands does not like such comparisons in any case.

The facts before us are, however: The Black students have to be accommodated; education has to be provided for them; and the Government accepts this responsibility. If we accept this, it brings us to the second fact, viz. that there must be sufficient and trained teachers to teach the children in accordance with certain given educational requirements. Do we have such teachers? If I have to reply to that, I should have to say that we do not have such teachers. This Government admits that there are still not enough teachers who are properly trained to perform this vitally important task.

That does not mean, however, that the Government is going to react by sitting back with its arms folded and doing nothing to improve the position. The pupil/teacher ration was 49:1 last year. The department regarded and recognized that as unhealthy. They have made it their aim to reduce the ration by at least 2 every year. This year, the department succeeded in reducing the ratio to 47:1. We should like to congratulate the department on this achievement. I trust that we shall be able to keep up this good work.

There are at present 12 599 teachers in the Black states. There are 14 170 teachers in the White areas. In this respect, it is interesting to look at the following figures: In 1958, 6 359 students were being trained as teachers. In 1968, the number was 6 281, and in 1978, it was 14 170. It is clear, therefore, it is only really over the past few years that the number of teachers has increased.

The demands made on the teacher are heavier every year and their burden of responsibility is increasing. I want to suggest that more purposeful and positive guidance be given to potential teachers so that they will be made aware of benefits such as bursary benefits which are available to enable them to qualify as teachers.

The teacher is and will continue to be the key figure in the teaching profession. The State, Government and Department of Education and Training can do as much as is humanly and financially possible. However, in addition, there must be a will to educate the youth of one’s nation to become, eventually, responsible citizens. I believe that that, too, is a task for the Black man in South Africa to tackle.

Mr. Chairman, in the first part of his speech the hon. member for Gezina replied to the speech made by the hon. member for Pinelands last year and gave answers with reference to that speech. I am not going to elaborate on that. At the end of his speech, he furnished important particulars which give us an understanding of the extent of the problem with which we have to contend.

In the first place, however, I should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister. To him, it is a question of being at home again. In the past he served this department as its Deputy Minister. Therefore it is nothing new to him. I should also like to congratulate the other hon. Minister on his promotion. It is to be regretted that he will no longer serve in this portfolio.

I also want to express the hope that we shall be able to succeed, on the basis of the recommendations of the Select Committee which is at present reviewing the legislation on education, in introducing legislation on education in this House of which we and all the people in South Africa will be proud.

†Unfortunately, in discussing a Vote of this nature, I think one of the biggest problems which faces us is the fact that we have in regard to Black education and as far as this debate is concerned, not so much an educational problem, but a certain type of political problem which concerns Parliament. It would be the height of hypocrisy to try to ignore this. We, as members of this House, elected by the White electorate, are in fact approving here an amount of money appropriated for Black education. I must say that it is an amount of which we can be rightly proud. It is an amount reflecting a substantial increase of 3 million more than the amount appropriated for Black education last year. However, we are appropriating this money, and the fact that we are being called upon to do so proves the uniqueness of our peculiar political system. Personally I would rather not have seen us having that privilege, because I believe, and it is the point of view of the NRP, that education should be a intimate matter to be handled by every race group on its own. [Interjections.] Each and every race group in our plural society should be responsible for the moneys appropriated for the education of their own children. Therefore, the fact that we have to take that decision and that we have to debate such an appropriation, is not correct. Even should we introduce new legislation, legislation which might possibly be the best legislation on education in South Africa, we will still not be able to evade the political aspects of this problem. That means that as long as our urban Blacks find themselves in some sort of political vacuum, we will still have to go through this particular procedure of appropriating money for Black education. I believe this is a problem which cannot be solved purely through educational means. It is nevertheless, a problem that will have to be solved somehow somewhere.

*If we had only educational problems in South Africa, we would be able to solve them quite readily. We should not forget that there is truth in the saying that money works wonders. Many educational problems can be solved by means of money. I am not denying that. We cannot solve this tremendous political obstruction in our way with the best will in the world and with the most efficient way of debating. I should also like to refer to …

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member, for the sake of greater clarity, whether he is not perhaps delivering a plea for a larger degree of autonomy for those Black States which already have full say over their own budgets in the field of education?

Of course. I should prefer us to reach the stage when an intimate matter such as education was totally controlled by every separate self-governing State. The problem is, however, that a political vacuum exists, because of the constitutional dispensation in South Africa, as far as the Black people outside the homelands are concerned. That is why we have to deal with the process of decision-making here. Once we have taken a decision, even if it is the best decision, it unfortunately remains a decision which is not their own. Consequently they can always criticize such decisions and advance the argument that the amounts voted for their educational purposes, are inadequate.

†I now want to refer to the current state of education in South Africa. Firstly, I have to express my gratitude for the fact that education and Black education have survived the past few turbulent years. Let us accept the fact that it is a mere three years ago that we had the Soweto riots. That is, however, past history. We know the extent to which pupils were involved and we know to what extent schools became the target. In the years that I have participated in debates of this nature, I have always tried to build up a record and draw comparisons with the progress made in Black education. In fairness, I am not prepared to do this today because I think it would give hon. members an unfair picture. I say this because we must accept the fact that 1976 and 1977 were unnatural years. Comparisons would therefore be unfair. I am satisfied that through the years education in South Africa has shown an upward trend and that there have been improvements as far as Blacks are concerned. The turning point, as far as I am concerned, came when, about seven or eight years ago, legislation was passed abolishing the Education Act. This took place in 1972. If one looks at the amounts of money appropriated, one sees that from that time onwards there has been a marked improvement.

*As I have said, we hope to get new legislation within a matter of days. We shall then be able to debate more decisively about what the future has in store for us. In my opinion, our first task for the future is the submission of an educational priority list by the Government, or rather, by the hon. the Minister and his department. I know that it already exists. I know that work has been done in this direction. In regard to priorities, however, I feel that an open confession from the Government should be forthcoming that it is indeed in earnest about this matter. Now I want to give an example of a normal priority list for education. More money, perhaps better qualified teachers, improved classroom facilities, improved school facilities, etc., are usually asked for. To my mind, however, our first priority in education should be the building up of mutual trust. That should be our first task, the first item on our priority list. I believe that all hon. members will agree with me on that. We can pour millions of rand into a bottomless pit but if we do not succeed in creating mutual trust, we shall never normalize the educational position in South Africa. Let us just look back into history for a moment. An hon. member said that someone would refer today to what Dr. Verwoerd had said in 1953, etc. However, there is not one opponent of Dr. Verwoerd who does not know that he was sincere as far as education is concerned. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we have the knowledge and the assurance that the mental attitude of our new hon. the Minister of Bantu Education—if I may use that term—to the enormous, aweinspiring task awaiting us, is a very important guarantee. In itself I regard this task simply as being one of the largest undertakings in which this country is engaged at the present time. I want to agree with the hon. member for Durban Central in one respect, and that is with regard to the question of mutual trust. But I should like to subject them to a practical test in this regard in order to determine to what extent his statement is merely theoretical and to what extent it is a deep-rooted conviction. In the course of my speech I am going to subject my own thinking, and that of my community, to the same test I want to turn to the hon. the Minister with regard to two important aspects of education in particular. One is the need for post-primary training in rural areas, such interpreted by the South African Agricultural Union as well and in connection with which interviews were still being conducted in Pretoria last month, interviews which are to be continued at a later stage. This is the one very important thing I want to emphasize, and it is in this very respect that I personally should like to see much more—if possible— rationalization in the near future. Even more important to me than this is the question of primary training in the peri-urban areas: The areas of plot-owners in the Vaal Triangle in the vicinity of Johannesburg, between Johannesburg and Pretoria and in the vicinity of Pretoria. Over the past three years I have found on my way to office, on my way to Johannesburg or Pretoria, small groups of young Black boys and girls walking to school along the road. But one does not know exactly where the school is. On closer examination it appears that they sometimes have to walk distances of up to nine kilometres to school. But this is not the main point. When I was eight years old I myself rode nine kilometres to school on horseback.

But there is this difference: It involves double sessions, it involves the matter of providing staff for the small primary schools which have 20 or 30 pupils. It involves the matter of the loss of time suffered through walking. Often the illegal traversing of fences and the playing of games on the way to school cause a further loss of time. There is also the matter of discipline. It also amounts to the matter of a more productive utilization of the available teachers, not even to mention control in the sense of proper inspection so that it may be determined whether or not there is progress and growth.

Black education in the peri-urban areas is difficult, because it takes place inside White areas and is really not permissible. For that very reason I feel the solution is to be found in more rationalization and centralization so that one may have fewer, but larger schools built for a specific area. This will allow of better management. It will make it possible to provide staff more effectively. It will also be possible to conduct inspections on a more effective basis.

I honestly believe that if we do not attend to this problem within the foreseeable future, we shall be guilty of indifference and exposed to criticism. I have no doubt that we shall derive greater economic benefit from the taxpayer’s contribution to Black education and that we shall also obtain a more effective utilization of study time with an eye to better and more rapid progress.

I believe, too, that as far as schools higher than primary schools in the peri-urban as well as the rural areas are concerned, we shall have to consider the introduction of a system of differentiated education as we have in the case of White schools. I shall tell you why I feel this way. The point was raised by the hon. member for Virginia that we should constantly bear in mind in what jobs and positions our skilled Blacks would be placed after they had completed their schooling. With wider differentiation in the field of Black education we shall diminish this problem.

There is another very important aspect I should also like to emphasize. My test for the hon. member for Durban Central is contained in this. I want to address an appeal to hon. members of the Opposition to give more and stronger proof of compassion with the parents of Black children in pleading the cause of Black education. There must be active cooperation on the part of Whites in the control boards of Black schools in the sense of arranging fetes for them with a view to collecting funds for libraries and bursaries. Whites must give guidance so that the parents of Black children may be able to learn to discover themselves after the Whites have been leading them on the road to success for three or four years. The Black parents must discover that they can collect so many hundreds of rands in co-operation with compassionate Whites. Once they have learnt this, free reign can be given them, because then they will make progress. However, this is not the position today.

One also does not know how to evaluate the situation. How great and deep is the enthusiasm of the Black parent to really qualify his child for life in a truly more effective way? One will be able to find the replies to this question only if one can find evidence of the Black parents’ co-operation. My personal standpoint is that we should set the example. I am addressing my own people, my own national Afrikaner community of the rural areas. I think the time has arrived for us not to restrict the application of the concept of contact or dialogue merely to leaders of specific communities, but for us to involve entire parent communities if we regard this problem as important. We must throw our weight in there and co-operate continuously in order to instill that confidence in the people to which only theoretic reference has really been made. Because my people covered the same road, I have no doubt as to what the reaction of the Black man will be. The time has arrived for us to stop wanting to score nothing but debating points with regard to very serious matters and for us to test ourselves in practice.

There is another matter about which I want to complain. Some of our church societies abuse the small schools by handing out envelopes to collect funds which they use for their own benefit and not for the benefit of the school and the child. This is a source of great concern.

Having asked for a greater degree of rationalization with regard to the control, management, development and siting of both primary and post-primary schools in the peri-urban areas and in the rural areas with a view to effecting centralization, the more effective utilization of teachers and more effective inspection, there is, last but not least, a final request I want to make. This is a request I address not only to the hon. the Minister, but also to his colleagues in the Department of Labour and in the Department of National Education. I think the time has arrived for all of us in South Africa, this dear fatherland of ours, to consider strongly the teaching of the concept, the philosophy and the ethnics of labour as a school subject, particularly to those who have a natural allergy to work.

There they sit!

The concept of labour as a curse is a fallacy. We must remove the sting from it and allow the concept of the blessings of labour to take root. In this regard we must make a small beginning. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Witwatersberg put his case, one of topical interest, with so much conviction that I should only be detracting from it if I were to take it any further.

In 1955 the enrolment of Black pupils in Stds. 6 to 10 was 34 938 and 44 385 in 1978. This is an increase of 1 167% in total or an average increase of 49% per annum. Moreover, the enrolment in St. 10 was only 674 in 1955 while it was 10 231 in 1978. This is an increase of 1 418% in total or an average increase of 59% per annum. Measured in terms of all recognized principles and criteria, these increases are phenomenal and spectacular. As opposed to this the enrolment in trade, vocational and technical schools, was 2 237 in 1955 and only 3 245 in 1978. This is an increase of 45% in total or an average of only 1,9% per annum.

In the light of the manpower needs of the Republic there is a clearly discernible imbalance between the increases and the enrolments at the ordinary—let us describe them as such—academic high schools on the one hand and the trade, vocational and technical schools on the other. This alarming imbalance requires the urgent attention of everyone who has an interest in and is interested in the education and training of our Black people. I want to say at once that this phenomenon is not exclusive to South Africa. In fact, the figures reflect and correspond to the trend descernible among all underdeveloped peoples throughout the world.

In the privilege to enjoy school education, the under-developed—our Black people too— see an opportunity to move away from any form of manual labour on which he as an unskilled and semi-skilled labourer has been dependent for generations. He consciously or unconsciously builds up a resistance, as it were, to any form of manual labour in his further training plan. That is why he sees trade, vocational or technical training merely as an extension of the other form of manual labour. The obtaining of an academic Std. 10 or Std. 9 or Std. 8 or Std. 6 certificate is seen by him as the surest and only method of entering the so-called white-collar labour market.

I want to emphasize that no one wants to deprive or deny the Black pupil this privilege of entering the white collar labour market, but again in view of the urgent need for trained manpower, there is inherent in this phenomenon of the Black pupil avoiding trade, vocational or technical training, a major and real danger and impediment to our economic growth and social order and peace, because it is and remains an open question whether the white-collar labour market can accommodate all academically trained candidates. I doubt this very much. Now, if a Std. 10 pupil were obliged to perform semi-skilled or unskilled labour, this must inevitably lead to frustration which in turn must lead to revolt, unrest and dissatisfaction. Surely none of us with a Std. 10 certificate could be happy to have to go and deliver parcels, for example.

Precisely!

Even if in-service training were to be provided, it would nevertheless mean wasting valuable time and money. I think the fact that trade, vocational and technical training is being avoided stems, in addition to the cause already mentioned, from ignorance with regard to the essence, nature, purpose and result of such training. For that reason I want to advocate an imaginative; intensive and sustained guidance course in which all Black pupils and at least those from Std. 5, as well as parents, will be involved and will have to be involved. With sincere gratitude we take cognizance of what the department is already doing in this field with regard to the guidance of Black pupils by means of its psychological services, but I want to ask whether the 36 officials in the field are adequate to perform this major task effectively. With sincere gratitude we also take cognizance of the system by which Std. 5 pupils in the large urban centres are transported to the training centres to be introduced there, as a form of differentiated education, to these practical subjects so that they may be able to make their choices more easily. However, I want to make the statement that this is inadequate in view of the vast scope and importance of this task. For that reason I again want to advocate an imaginative, intensive and sustained guidance campaign involving all pupils from Std. 5 as well as the parents, a campaign in which we should use all the media at our disposal—not only of the teacher in classroom context, but also media such as films, television, radio, pamphlets and publicity campaigns,—in respect of the various professions awaiting the Black pupil. In view of the tremendous problems which could develop and the need for manpower provision, I think that such a guidance action must be accorded high priority, if not top priority, by the Department of Education and Training.

Mr. Chairman, now that you have taken the Chair, I want to take this opportunity of extending to you the congratulations of those of us in these benches on your elevation. I think the best I can say is “Vrystaat!”. I am sure we shall all miss you when you leave us.

I shall not rule the hon. member out of order this time.

Well, Sir, that will be one of the few occasions on which you have not ruled me out of order.

I want to say to the hon. the Minister that, of course, we also extend to him our best wishes on his assumption of this portfolio. We certainly go along with him in all the high ideals he has expressed this afternoon. I must say, as the hon. member for Durban Central has pointed out earlier this afternoon, that the hon. the Minister is on familiar ground, because one of his previous tasks as Deputy Minister of Plural Relations and Development was, of course, to handle the portfolio of Bantu Education. About six years ago almost to the day, the hon. the Minister, who was then still Deputy Minister, gave us the benefit of his dreams about Bantu education. He included in those dreams the issuing of free school-books, particularly textbooks, to Black children, and the phasing in of compulsory education. I must say that this is, of course, something the Eiselen Commission recommended when it reported way back in 1951—it sat in 1949. The commission hoped that by, I think, the year 1959 we would already have phased in compulsory education for Black children, for four years of schooling.

I can only say that one of the hon. the Minister’s dreams has more or less come true, namely the issuing of free school-books. Most of the Black schoolchildren, although by no means all of them yet, are getting text books. The other dream, however, is still on the drawing board, namely the phasing in of compulsory education. I do not believe that the four-year undertaking parents have to sign when their kids start school is of any force or effect and I do not believe that compulsory education can be introduced unless it is free. Quite obviously it has to be free. I see that the new Bill, which is now before a Select Committee, has taken cognizance of the fact that compulsory education must also be free education.

I do not think that the hon. member for Virginia or the hon. the Minister are really doing a service to the country when they defend, perhaps out of a misplaced sense of loyalty, the original Bantu Education Act which was introduced in 1953 by Dr. Verwoerd. That Act placed Black education on an inferior level and Black people have never forgotten that fact. It is one of the main reasons why Black people feel that they are discriminated against in South Africa and, of course, they have every reason to feel that way because the quality of their education is quite obviously very inferior to the quality of education provided for other races, more particularly to that of White children. When one considers that the annual amount spent on education was for years pegged at R13 million, one realizes the crippling effect this also had on schooling for Black children. It is going to take many decades before Black education will recover from this effect and many affirmative actions will be needed to offset it. I believe there has grown up an entire generation of under-educated Black children as a result of that ill-conceived piece of legislation, the Bantu Education Act of 1953. However, I do not want to go in for recriminations; they do not help. Nor will saying “I told you so” encourage attitudes towards change. So I think we had better go forward. I particularly agree with all those hon. members in this House who have expressed their thankfulness that most of the Black children are back at school after those lost 2½ years which were so dangerous for South Africa, so expensive for South Africa and which, of course, cost the Black parents an enormous amount of money. I do not think that the Black children who were out of school for 2½ years, will ever catch up those years.

The speech of the hon. member for Kimberley North is a very good example of how one can make statistics say anything that one wants them to say. There is no doubt, of course, that there has been an improvement in the number of Black children who are attending school. I do not disagree with that at all. I think it is particularly gratifying that in 1977 something like 2 500 Black children had passed their matric and over 5 000 had obtained their school-leaving certificates. That is a very good improvement. The tremendous report of the department is full of information, full of statistics, and it is going to be an absolute joy for everybody who is interested in Black education for many years to come. I join my colleague the hon. member for Pinelands in congratulating the department on getting out this really monumental tone. It shows on page 273 that just on 64% of Black children at school, in the white areas, were in the first four classes and 59% were in those classes in the Black States. That is not something to boast about. That is why, coming back to the hon. member for Kimberley North, I want to say that statistics are good in one respect and bad in another respect. The fact that as many as 64% of the children who are at school were in the first four classes, namely sub A, sub B, Std. 1 and Std. 2, in the White areas and that 59% were in those classes in the Black States is nothing for us to boast about; nor is the fact that 88% were in the primary classes in the schools in the White areas and 84% in the Black States. According to the report only 2% of them were in Stds. 6, 7 and 8 in the White areas, only 3,6% in the Black States and, very sadly indeed, less than 1%, i.e. 0,67%, were in Stds. 9 and 10 in the White areas and only 1,26% in Stds. 9 and 10 in the Black States. That is very bad.

Whose fault is that?

Well, it is a result of the fact that education has not been free and a result of the fact that children leave school for economic reasons, at an early age. It is therefore a combination of many factors. It is also, of course, as a result of there being a shortage of teachers and a shortage of schools.

It is therefore the fault of the Whites.

While we are on this discussion of expenditure, I want to say that it is really rather deceptive to talk of spending R70 on average per capita on a Black child now—which is very good compared with the previous figures of R16 per capita not so long ago—while R700 per capita is being spent on White children. What we have got to remember, is that the White child goes to school, compulsory and free, for 10 years, which means that we spend R7 000 on every White child. What do we spend on every Black child in this respect? Let us say, for example, that the average Black child attends school for four years or five years, which will mean that we spend approximately R350 on average per Black child, whilst we spend R7 000 for the school education of every White child. These are the figures that we ought to be comparing. Therefore we have a very long way to go before we can say that we are levelling up the quality of education for Black children and for White children.

You are impressing no one with that irresponsible argument.

It is no good the hon. member for Verwoerdburg sitting there shaking his head sadly … [Interjections.]

There are two more points that I wish to raise very briefly. In the first place I want to know from the hon. the Minister if he will tell us something more about the committee of inquiry into tertiary education, because I am very anxious to know how far they have got with it. I should also like to know whether there is any chance of a university being established in the Black urban areas, for instance somewhere near Soweto, which is the biggest Black city south of the Sahara with roughly 1½ million inhabitants. Instead of young people having to go off to hostels in the rural areas at great expenses, we should have a university there which can serve the whole PWV area in the sphere of Black tertiary education.

Finally I want to say a word or two about the extreme urgency of bringing up the whole standard of education of Blacks and of keeping the children at school for longer periods. If the report of the Wiehahn Commission is going to mean anything and if the Government’s recommendations are going to mean anything, we are going to need Black children who have passed at least a standard of education at the level of Std. 6, and in some cases Std. 8, that will enable them to become apprentices in terms of the Apprenticeship Act and to belong to trade-unions in South Africa. Therefore these children should attend school longer so that we can have a supply of literate Black people who can be trained as artisans in South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Houghton put a few meaningful questions to the hon. the Minister towards the end of her speech, and I am sure he will reply to them. As far as the per capita expenditure is concerned, I wish to point out to the hon. member that she should take her study a little further by comparing what it costs the Government at the tertiary level to train a Black student and a White student I will not allow the hon. official Opposition to get away with this so easily. In a pleasant, calm and well-prepared speech, the hon. member for Pinelands again raised the question of a single department for the entire structure of education in our country.

Do you agree?

I mention this with great circumspection, but I have to mention it. The hon. member requires it of me. In the Transvaal, an English-speaking leader in the field of education has advocated a separate department for English-speaking people. [Interjections.] How does one explain that?

Who is he?

I can quote from Die Vaderland what the secretary of the Transvaal Teachers’ Association, Mr. Jack Ballard, advocated, namely a department for English-speaking people only, because, he said, there is discrimination and no equality in the field of education. [Interjections.] Now I don’t know any more. These people confuse me. I think the notion of one single department is not going to satisfy those hon. members. Their inclinations run deeper. They are striving for full integration. That is what is behind all this. That is what they are after.

I wish to come to another idea that affects the Black youth in our urban areas in particular. After school and during holidays, those people are to a certain extent idle. The hon. the Minister, in his excellent introductory speech in which he held out certain prospects to us, emphasized one very important point: What is important is not merely education, but particularly character development of those people. We should seek opportunities and even create them ourselves so that we can achieve that particular component of education.

Another Government department has tabled a White Paper on the Rhenosterkop Dam, which is going to be built in the Southern Ndebele territory. That project—we are very pleased that the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs is with us—offers an excellent opportunity for us in this department. That site is very near to our large metropolitan complexes. It is an excellent site and it is going to be an outstanding dam. The surface area of this dam is going to be almost twice that of Loskop Dam. This dam is going to be built in an unusual basin. I suggest we make representations to the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs that certain of those building structures should remain there when the dam has been completed, so that this department can utilize them to bring the Black youth from the cities and to take them there for recreation.

It will have to be paid for.

Money is not the problem, since we shall find that. We could persuade Mr. Jaap de Villiers to save a little on other projects so as to be able to assist us at that site.

This site is within reach of the vast development that is in the offing in the Eastern Transvaal, where there is going to be an immense concentration of people in Black cities. I think we should make use of that opportunity. At that site one has the necessary space to make provision for those young people, so that we may instil into them a love of file soil, as we do in the case of our White youth, by means of the Land Service movement. We could also encourage leadership among them. The site is within easy reach of where they live. We could instil into them the concept of full, useful and responsible citizenship. We could teach them the ability to organize for the tasks that lie ahead for them.

We therefore ask for the opportunity to supply camping facilities and huts for overnight accommodation at that site. That would create an opportunity for us to involve these young people so that they could be activated. By supplying them with space and recreational facilities, we should be keeping them away from all sorts of mischief in the cities, where they are trapped. There would be opportunities for water sport, for which they also have a need. There would be space for soccer fields, tennis courts and even a golf course where the grownups could go and play golf. There would also be possibilities of building shops, cafes, etc., which the Blacks could manage themselves. This would also stimulate development in that Black territory.

Andries cannot believe his ears!

By means of courses which the hon. member for Kimberley North has referred to, opportunities could be created there for the Black children, who like to sing—we have experience of that—to compete in choir groups. It would be possible by means of these courses to reach these people in a different context, outside the formal class and school context. Then we should really be getting through to these people. Then we should be drawing a line along which we could reach these people in the full sense, of development towards maturity. Then we should be fostering civic responsibility in them and making them responsible citizens who would not only be intent on the material aspect of national existence, but also on the other qualities which are our responsibility in this department.

The hon. the Minister and his department and secretariat are capable people, people who are really working hard to achieve our ideal. Here it can be put into practice. Deep in our hearts we all have appreciation for the culture of the Bantu. That we cannot deny. It is part of a heritage that we do not want them to lose. It is a rich possession of theirs, something we should not begrudge them! They should retain, enrich and develop this.

I conclude with a quotation from Prof, Bruwer, a man who unfortunately died in the Rietbok disaster at East London. What I am going to quote he wrote in 1956. It is still applicable today—

This is the task of this department with all these people on the path of destiny.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Standerton has dealt with a very important aspect here this evening, namely the continued contact between the Black child and his homeland and everything that goes with it. We appreciate what the hon. member said tonight.

However, I wish to discuss another subject I wish to refer to the adult education division of the Department of Education and Training. On 1 August 1975 a specialized division was created under the control of the Chief Planner of the department, with the task of investigating the planning, development and coordination of adult education and making recommendations on the matter.

The primary object and function of the department is of course that of educating the child. For years, though, the department has been concerned about the need for further training of adults. The objective is to provide those who cannot attend an ordinary school with an education. A programme of action was prepared in which the following priorities were identified. In the first place, there was the improvement in the academic qualifications of serving teachers. This would effect a general improvement in the quality of education as well as the teacher himself. The training of teachers and an improvement in their qualifications is a task to which this department is devoting considerable attention, since this is something about which the department has long been concerned. The department is trying to improve this state of affairs by undertaking further training of teachers after hours. The inservice training centre at Mamelodi near Pretoria plays an important role in this respect. This institution supplies the Department of Education and Training with notes for use by teachers attending evening classes to improve their qualifications. Naturally, the centre itself also provides training. In 1978, a total of 652 teachers studied there on a part-time basis with a view to improving their qualifications. The training of secondary school teachers is of course primarily the object of the universities, but up to now the university has not been able to meet the demand for secondary school teachers. Consequently, attention is also being given to this.

A second priority that has been identified in this regard is the rendering of assistance to adults who wish to improve their academic qualifications. This category of candidate has already received earlier academic training but has had to leave school for socio-economic reasons. Subsequently they wish to improve their qualifications by means of evening schools and continuation classes.

The third priority is that of promoting literacy among adults. At present there are 59 centres with 118 campuses offering training outside school context. Apart from these, 47 more are being planned and it is hoped that they will be put into service during the present year. These centres are normally established when there are 200 or more pupils in a particular area who show an interest in training.

Educational centres for adults perform two social functions for the community. The first is to serve as an information bureau, particularly for private candidates, and the second function is to arrange examinations for such candidates. When we consider the extent of these arrangements, we appreciate the enormity of the task. We need merely consider the Std. 5 enrolments of private candidates for 1970. The figure was 3 766. For the Std. 8 examination, there were 25 064, and for Std. 10, 59 584. One should take note that those 59 584 candidates enrolled for 42 different courses. The department’s object with adult education is to make a high standard of class instruction and study material available. The study guides have been so compiled that when a course is completed, the entire syllabus has been covered. The study material is readily available and is provided free of charge. The manuals and study material are also made available to the Black self-governing States. Although this is actually the responsibility of the education authorities in the self-governing States, aid is also rendered through the Department of Education and Training, including the section for adult education. In particular it is the knowledge, the advice and the practical assistance of the Department of Education and Training in all respects that is being placed at the disposal of all the territories. In fact, various education departments have already availed themselves of this professional assistance. It has been agreed, where feasible, to exchange advice and facilities. The teachers offering various courses have qualified professionally in day schools. The policy of the department is that only the best qualified teachers should be used for this task. Where Black teachers are not available, White teachers are used on a part-time basis. Permission is then obtained from the Departments of Education of the Transvaal, Natal, the Cape Province and the Free State, and also from the Department of Coloured Relations, for their teachers to present classes on a part-time basis to further the training of Black teachers.

It is the task of the Department of Education and Training to meet the educational needs of the Black population. By means of this education, every Black community is being equipped to make a contribution to the national economy and the social development of the various Black nations. Although Black education is not yet compulsory in South Africa, we have the highest percentage of literacy in Africa. In 1976, according to the Department of Information, the figure was 45%, while the figure for the rest of Africa was 31%. It is the policy of the NP that there should be equal pay for equal work, regardless of race or colour. Since these qualifications have been set, it could be expected that Black students would acquire further qualifications and that in future there would consequently be a greater stream of students to these adult education centres.

Mr. Chairman, I want to return immediately to the contribution by the hon. member for Virginia, who is the chairman of the group on Education and Training on the other side of the House, as well as the contributions by the hon. members for Gezina and Standerton. All of them responded to a request I put to the hon. the Minister earlier. First of all, I made the assertion that the strong view is held, certainly by the Black teachers, young people and leaders that I have talked to, that until such time as there is one Department of Education, they will never accept that they are getting an equal and fair deal. The hon. members who have responded so far became very excited about all this and suggested, amongst other things, that what I was not aware of was that the Blacks had a certain culture of their own and that the various groups within the Black population had a culture and that that culture had to be preserved. I want to say immediately that, of course, I accept that.

The hon. member for Gezina told the House that he had gone through previous speeches of mine on the subject, and I wish him well because he can only improve after reading those speeches. [Interjections.] He quoted in particular the fact that I accepted that one cannot impose from outside a particular set of facts and figures, excluding the environment, the history and the culture of a people, as though that was education. I stand by that. But I want to argue along other lines. The hon. members know there is a Department of National Education and that there are provincial departments and that they are responsible for the English-speaking and Afrikaans-speaking South Africans. Do any of the hon. members I have mentioned want to tell the House that the Afrikaans-speaking section of our community have been deprived because they fall under one department or that the English-speaking community have been deprived because they fall under one single national department? I do not believe they will. The riches that both groups bring of their own diversity, culture and language only serve to enrich it. I have said once before— and the hon. member for Oudtshoorn will bear this out, because we both went to the same school—that at the school I attended there were both English-speaking and Afrikaans-speaking pupils. We learned from each other and played in the same teams. The hon. member for Oudtshoorn is none the worse for it. In fact, he is probably a lot better for it because he was with me at that time.

But look what happened to you!

As a result, I have obviously improved enormously as well. The simple point I want to make is that, if one has a structure of education which is shared, that does not automatically mean that one demeans and takes away from the culture, the history and the life of others.

The hon. member for Standerton quite rightly quoted—and I am not sure where he was quoting from—differences in music and language; he talked about the roll of the drums and so on. That is of course true, but one might as well then also talk about the rolling of the wheels of the ox-wagon. There is another kind of culture emerging in South Africa and that is the culture of an industrial society. A new culture is emerging and the reports of the Wiehahn Commission and the Riekert Commission make it clear that one cannot keep people apart. One cannot say that because of the roll of the drums or the oxwagons one is now unable to build a new society.

You wanted integrated schools.

No. Mr. Chairman, I must really now come back to this hon. member. Is he saying to this House that he wants no integration in any schools in South Africa at all?

You know what our policy is.

Never mind what the hon. member’s policy is. He is challenging me. If he is going to challenge me on that, then he must challenge me on what is happening in practice and not on the basis of his policy. Let us be fair and honest about it If we are going to debate this, let us debate what is happening in South Africa today and not what my policy is or his policy is, whatever it might be. That is the trouble. The situation in South Africa is developing in such a fluid way that one cannot confine people in certain areas, in certain groups and even in certain cultures. Of course we accept the richness of the cultures we all contribute, but there is a new society that is in the process of being born in South Africa and, no matter how hard one tries, one will not prevent it. That is why I say that I want to challenge the hon. members who have criticized my approach here. If they want to criticize this approach, it is their right to do so, but will they at least grant me that, as is shown in the Wiehahn Commission’s report and the Riekert Commission’s report, developments are taking place and the new society I have been talking about, is coming into being? The hon. member for Virginia referred to the need for jobs and said that one cannot just give a man a matriculation certificate or a Std. 8 certificate and then claim that one has fulfilled one’s responsibility, but that one also has to ask whether jobs are available. If that is true, I want to ask the hon. member whether he will stand up and support me when I ask the hon. the Minister to appoint a commission of inquiry, because we need that commission of inquiry to do exactly what he is asking for, something which I believe we are not doing right now. No one is to blame. We find ourselves in a new situation and a new society. There is no point in looking back and saying: It has happened because we have not done this and we have done that I am concerned about the new South Africa that is at the moment in the process of being born. We cannot deal with it in the piecemeal fashion in which we are dealing with it at the moment. That is what concerns me, and that is why I tried to say to the hon. the Minister earlier on that I am desperately concerned about the fact that this Government is acting on an ad hoc basis, reacting to commission after commission and trying to do bits and pieces. One cannot put the new wine of South Africa into these old bottles. The hon. the Prime Minister knows that. That is why I say that, when we talk about the educational needs of the South Africa of tomorrow, we have to have the expert knowledge, the experience and the future-directed thinking which will enable us to have a decent educational system for all South Africans.

I want to ask the hon. member for Virginia, who is chairman of that Select Committee— and, incidentally, it is said that he is doing a very good job—whether he will join with me in persuading the hon. the Minister and the hon. the Prime Minister to call together a commission of inquiry to look into the future educational needs of all South Africans. It may be that, emerging from that, there will come the realization that what we have had in the past is not going to serve us in the future. I shall be prepared to go to work in a commission of inquiry like that with an open mind. We can look at the facts and the projections we obtain and then make our decisions on the future.

Having tried to respond to the comments that have been made by various hon. members—and I assume that they will again respond when they re-enter the debate—I want to move on to another subject, a subject which has been touched upon and which is also absolutely central, and that is the central importance of the teacher. We have tabled about this many times in past debates and I want to try to emphasize it again. If I have an opportunity, I shall come back to that a little later in the debate. On page 111 of this remarkable report, reference is made to teacher training. There is much in this report that gives us cause for encouragement, but there is also much that gives us disquiet. There is considerable reference to the development which is taking place in teacher training courses and in various courses which are becoming available.

When one thinks of the bursaries that are available and have been granted, one wants to say that it is an absolute pittance; it is a drop in the ocean. It is not enough. When I asked the hon. the Minister a question earlier this year, I was told that 1 667 bursaries had been granted, totalling R170 270. That is an absolute pittance. We need emergency measures in terms of upgrading Black teachers and teachers in Black schools. This does not mean merely adding on, trying to have a normal development and trying to catch up on the past, but it means a commitment to education and to Black teachers so that we can grapple with the future as well as with the present.

I also read in the same report that during the past year two new teacher training courses were instituted. They are listed and I do not have to repeat them; hon. members have the report. This is well and good; but two? We need far more than that Five other courses are listed under 7.2 on page 111, and so it goes on. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, to us in this House it is quite an experience every time we listen to the hon. member for Pinelands and witness a performance by one who is certainly one of the greatest apostles of integration South Africa has ever known. Every speech he makes in this House—and this has been said here time and again—is a blueprint that leads people along the road to integration. His philosophy is absolutely directed at forcing South African society to become a completely open society, without any respect for the rights of other national and cultural groups.

That is untrue.

To my mind there is no doubt at all about this and it was also obvious in the comments that were available or had been submitted at the time when the new legislation on education was being studied. One clearly discerns the hand of that hon. member in all those comments. He is a man who is forcing South Africa in the direction of an open society.

You give me too much credit.

I wish to deal with Black farm schools this evening. In dealing with those schools, I wish to point out that it is on record that organized agriculture in South Africa is very concerned about the state of Black education in the farm schools. There is a strong feeling on the part of our farming community that the Black pupils in the towns and cities are receiving greater support from the State than the Black pupils in the farm schools. The facilities for Black pupils in the towns and cities are definitely considerably more substantial than those of the Black pupils in the rural areas.

In saying that, I am asking that we should bear in mind that the farming community in South Africa is the biggest employer of Black people in the Republic of South Africa. Almost half of the Black people resident in the White area are living on farms. The education of Black pupils in the many little farm schools all over the country’s rural areas is a matter on which every hon. member representing a rural constituency has very strong feelings. Nobody would today deny the very important function of the farm school in the development of education for the Black child. Of the 11 422 schools that fell under the Department of Education and Training in 1977, 4 397 were farm schools; that is to say, 38,5% of all schools. Where could one wish for a better indication of the importance of this type of school?

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, just before business was interrupted for supper, I was referring to the particularly important function of Black schools on farms in our country. As the percentage of school attendance by Black children has increased the attendant bottlenecks and problems have also increased in direct proportion to the increased attendance. The development in the direction of compulsory school attendance for Black children is making the problems surrounding the farm schools even greater than the many problems already being experienced.

I believe we could epitomize the problems of the farm school as follows: In the first place, the farming community can no longer keep pace with the provision of school facilities. In the second place, accommodation for Black teachers at farm schools is inadequate. In the third place, the distances pupils have to cover to schools, are very great. In the fourth place, there is also a problem regarding the undesirability of double sessions. In the fifth place, a large number of Black children on farms are being deprived of school facilities. Finally, some of the farm-owners are bearing an unfair burden with regard to farm schools.

In summarizing these few problems in this way, I wish to point out to the committee that we are experiencing a great many problems in practice. I have had occasion to discuss the position of the farm school with our circuit inspector of the department and I am convinced that the problems I have pointed out here, are probably being experienced in most rural constituencies.

I wish to express a few thoughts on the provision of school facilities by the farmer. There is a growing insistence among Black farm workers that school facilities be provided for their children. One really has understanding and a great deal of sympathy for the Black parent who wishes to see that his child should also obtain an education. The farmer who does not take cognizance of this, simply loses his good, and often his most loyal, farmhands.

In the Lichtenburg inspection circuit, in which part of my constituency is also included, the number of pupils has increased as follows during the past few years: In 1977, the number was 21 229; in 1978, 22 519; and this year, 23 959. There has therefore been an average increase of 1 365 pupils per annum. It would have been much higher if the necessary school facilities had been available. Many of the children who cannot be accommodated in these farm schools, are attending schools in Bophuthatswana. In one of the districts in the vicinity, the disquieting fact has been revealed that during 1978, approximately 5 000 Black children were attending farm school whereas approximately 10 000 Black children of school going age were not At the average growth rate of 1 365 pupils a year during the past three years in the circuit referred to, 30 new classrooms are required in this circuit every year in order to meet the needs. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with hon. members on both sides of the House in the congratulations they have conveyed—not, this time, to the NRP for the result of the election somewhere in the Cape—but to the hon. the Minister. I want to associate myself with them. I want to associate myself with the congratulations and compliment him on the way in which he has handled this debate up to now and on the standpoints he stated. Fortunately the hon. the Minister, when he was appointed Deputy Minister, already had knowledge of tins department. Therefore he is well equipped to handle this matter. I also associate myself with the words of appreciation hon. members conveyed to the Secretary for Education and Training and his officials, as well as for the very fine report that was tabled.

Hon. members mentioned various matters. I want to deal briefly with a concept raised by the hon. member for Pinelands. It concerns the establishment of one department for all in the field of education in South Africa. This is a very popular idea among hon. members of the Opposition. However, may I say that in a country like South Africa, with its multiplicity of communities, it is an absolutely elementary fact—the ABC of politics in South Africa—that one should not have in such a country a concentration of functions in a super body, but that one should have a greater degree of decentralization with delegation of powers and functions to the institutions of the communities concerned. If one creates a larger concentration, then one creates a greater degree competition from below to take over and control that seat of concentration. In our country it is imperative that functions and powers as far as possible be transferred to the Government bodies of the various communities to the maximum extent.

It is for that reason that we have separate departments of education for the Black nations—the independent as well as the self-governing nations. It is also for that reason that we in the Department of Education and Training give the maximum say to the Black communities with regard to their training and education. Furthermore, it is a fact that in the bodies that determine standards, courses, syllabi, etc., fruitful use is made of the expert knowledge of other White departments in the education of the Republic of South Africa.

The hon. member for Houghton inquired about the committee of inquiry into tertiary education for Blacks. Before I discuss the terms of reference of the committee, I might also just say that the committee is still engaged in its work. Therefore it would really be a little premature to comment at this point on the possible findings of the committee. If one looks at its terms of reference, it is interesting to note that the Cabinet approved in principle that the existing policy be adjusted to the extent that university training for Blacks, where justified, can be given in White areas and that a committee of experts has to examine this.

The area of inquiry that has to be covered, is on the level of post-secondary education, with special attention to university training and the training of secondary teachers, as well as aspects connected with that, for example other forms of post-secondary education. The committee has, therefore, been given wide terms of reference. This inquiry has to be carried out against the background of existing facilities at Black residential universities and at other Black institutions for higher education. The Government, therefore, was very realistic in the terms of reference it gave this committee as far as the existing institutions are concerned. The Government established the existing Black universities. They are Government institutions, State institutions, and were established for the purpose of serving specific Black communities. We do not intend forgoing that object through an inquiry by the committee. Therefore the inquiry should take place taking into account the existing facilities.

I do not want to take the matter any further. The hon. member for Houghton had the details at her disposal, of course. I merely mentioned it in passing.

Their hands are tied. They remain limited to their existing terms of reference.

Any commission has limited terms of reference. We know this as a result of commissions that investigated other matters, matters we have debated in this House.

When we speak about tertiary training of Blacks, there is no difference of opinion or difference in enthusiasm with regard to the necessity of the training of Blacks, Blacks who can be available for service to their own communities, in their own surroundings and in their own country. There is no difference of opinion about that, and hon. members opposite are not more enthusiastic about this. In fact, we on this side of the House were the precursors and created quite exceptional opportunities for these people to be made useful to their own communities through training. Trained Black people are of great significance and value for the development of their own communities.

However, I want to make a second remark. That is that a satisfied and happy leadership corps, especially the intelligentsia in such a community, is of great significance. In South Africa we are dealing with situations which can very easily be exploited from the point of view of some people. We have a certain degree of inequality in South Africa. No one argues about that. Where there is inequality, where people do not yet—for various reasons and as a result of various circumstances— share in the same privileges, it is obvious that people from outside will see an opening to use for creating unrest in South Africa. It is therefore very important that the leadership corps of communities should be happy, dedicated, trained and contented people. One must not have among such leaders people who are orientated towards hostile polarization. We in South Africa cannot afford to have polarization between the leaders of Black nations, Whites, Asians and Coloureds. Such polarization would be dangerous to peaceful co-existence in this country.

It is obvious that the intelligentsia of any community who are thus educated, must not be agents for undermining forces from outside. Furthermore it is also obvious that those people should not be caught up in a sense of frustration, nor should they—as someone expressed it with regard to certain British academics—have a death wish with regard to their own community. Nor should there be amongst the intelligentsia of a community the types of form and pattern of life which have been described by some American writers as “patterns of self-hate and self-rejection”. Instead of that type of pattern and attitude towards life we want to welcome and encourage self-esteem, self-respect and self-determination.

I want to take this somewhat further and refer to the progress we have made in various spheres. If we look at progress and achievements with regard to the university training of Blacks, we see that although the figures are not very large, there has nevertheless been remarkable progress. In 1960 a mere 481 Black students attended the Black universities. That was still right in the beginning. When I speak of progress, I do not want to imply that it was spectacular. Nevertheless the progress has been such that by 1970 there were approximately 2 000 Black students and in 1979 more than 6 000. This is at the Black universities alone. If, however, we take into account the figures at the other universities, for example, the White universities and the University of South Africa, there are an additional 8 261 Black students. 7 796 students are registered at the University of South Africa alone.

If one looks at the number of graduates amongst Black people, one can already see a remarkable increase there as well.

Order! I regret that the hon. the Deputy Minister’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon. the Deputy Minister the opportunity to finish his “brilliant” speech.

I thank the hon. member for granting me this opportunity. Look, Sir, if this hon. member now thinks that a so-called “verkrampte”, not to mention a conservative, on this side can make a brilliant speech, I wonder whether we shall not have to watch out for our wickets!

As has been said, the Black graduates are people of special importance and significance for their own communities. In this regard, too, good progress has been made. In 1961 there were approximately 2 000 Black graduates in South Africa. In 1979 the number was already approximately 8 000. I think this represents good progress, and we expect that this increase in numbers will be accelerated still more.

I want to make a few remarks about the Medical University of Southern Africa, Medunsa. I think here we can convey our congratulations to the new rector, Prof. Retief. I do not want to say now that I was his minister, because then it might be said that he has become what he has in spite of ministering. Prof. Retief is a well-equipped, very enthusiastic and dynamic person and he is eminently suited to the work entrusted to him. The Act by which that university was established, was passed by Parliament as long ago as 1976. The university is therefore in its third year of training. The foundation has therefore already been very solidly laid. This year there are second and third year medical students and there are also students of physiotherapy, radiography, dietetics, occupational therapy and dental therapy. Attention is being given to the introduction of degree courses in all those subjects, as well as nursing, dentistry and veterinary science. I think it is remarkable that these subjects are already being offered there. The two main medical buildings of that university will be completed soon. The statute of the university has been proclaimed and all the most important academic and administrative posts have been filled on a permanent basis. Indications are that as far as its academic functions are concerned, this university is doing work of a high standard. An advisory committee for State universities was appointed in the course of the year. Its purpose is to furnish the Minister with authoritative advice on coordinated planning and expansion of Black university training facilities. We think that this is a very important function. Therefore a start has already been made with this.

I should also like to refer now to the University of Zululand. I think that here, too, we have a remarkable development. If my information is correct, the Chief Minister of kwaZulu accepted the chancellorship of this university, and in my opinion this is a significant gesture and a significant event. It is significant in the sense that the leader in the political field associates himself with an institution established for his people and his country. In fact, I want to venture to say that he is associating himself with a product of the policy of separate development, a policy aimed at the development of those people. Anyone who has met the new rector, Professor Nkabinde, will agree with me that in Professor Nkabinde we have an able, very dedicated and acceptable rector for the University of Zululand. Approval has already been received for new courses, i.e. domestic science, speech and drama and communication. At the Institute for Civil Service and Professional Training, further provision has been made for students from other State departments and the private sector. All this is aimed at having trained people, available for particular communities via university training. A new course has also been instituted for the training of data processers and computer operators.

I had the privilege of visiting the University of the North and was impressed by the dedication of the rector as well as the lecturers, and by the buildings and modem facilities which have been provided for what is still a very young university. The number of students has increased and there are already approximately 1 800 students. Various things have been launched in order to expand the functions of the university. An advisory bureau for Black businessmen has been introduced, and all this is in the interests of the economic development of the northern States. There is a diploma course in public administration for the training of serving civil servants in Black government services in the northern States. There is a B.Agric. degree course for the training of agriculture managers as well. I think the hon. the Minister of Agriculture will be interested in this. A well-equipped farm is available to the university. There is also a B.Sc. degree course in pathology for medical laboratory scientists as well as a bachelor degree course in accounting and auditing for the training of accountants and auditors. I need not give more details, but merely want to add that in our university training we aim at establishing courses of importance to the Black community in which such a university is established.

I should like to dwell briefly on the University of Fort Hare. Within a year the number of students at Fort Hare increased from 1 800 to 2 600. This is a remarkable increase and testifies to the trust of the students and the community in that particular university. As far as agriculture is concerned, the degree B.Sc. Agric. has been offered there for the past 10 years. Initially it was more scientifically orientated, but now a three-year course—the B.Agric. degree—has been introduced to train agricultural extension officers and managers. This is of particular interest, and I am glad to see that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture has great appreciation for it. There is not yet training in forestry because the funds are not yet available, but there is definitely a very great demand for forestry experts for the Ciskei and Transkei. The university is starting this year with a B.A. course in French, with the support of the French cultural representative. At all three of the universities there is full training at first year level in engineering.

It is certainly also worth mentioning that branches of the university have been established at a few places. For example, there is a branch of the University of Fort Hare at Zwelitsha, which renders exceptional service without a high per capita expenditure. These facilities have therefore also been made available to the densely populated Black residential area to the benefit of that community. At this branch in Zwelitsha there are, for example, courses in Afrikaans/ Nederlands, English, Xhosa, history, political science, public administration, mathematics, economics, business economics, industrial psychology, private law and accounting. All these are courses offered there. Another branch is that of the University of Zululand at Umlazi. As from this year, extramural lectures will be given in Afrikaans, English, Zulu, history, geography, mathematics and theory of education. It is of importance especially for serving teachers to have such a facility at their disposal in a densely populated Black residential area. The fact that this training centre is situated in a densely populated area is to the benefit of the students and the teachers who want to better their qualifications there for service to their own communities.

I merely want to say that bursaries are also being made available and that we have increased our bursaries from R200 per student to R500 per student to enable students to pay not only their class fees, but also the greater part of their board out of the bursary. I think we have made a major contribution in this regard.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to react to one or two aspects mentioned by the hon. the Deputy Minister, but first I should just like to say that we are looking forward to learning to what new post the hon. the Prime Minister will appoint the hon. the Deputy Minister.

†I must react to one or two matters concerning university education about which the hon. the Minister has spoken. Quite rightly the hon. the Minister referred to the large number of Black students at the universities today, but I still think it is significant that when one analyses the figures, one finds that out of the approximately 13 000 Black students approximately 5 000 are at residential universities and approximately 8 000 are studying through Unisa. I think it should worry us when the majority of students of a particular population group cannot afford to attend a residential university as full-time students.

I think the hon. the Deputy Minister raised in a rather undiplomatic manner the issue concerning the Chief Minister of kwaZulu accepting the chancellorship of the University of Zululand. [Interjections.] I shall say why I say this. I am more or less going to repeat what the hon. the Deputy Minister has said. He has said that the Chief Minister has now accepted the chancellorship of that university and that he must remember that this is a separate development institution.

I did not put it that way.

I want to say to the hon. the Deputy Minister that I do not believe we know under how much pressure Black people are who have to work within the system of separate development. They are under tremendous pressure. When they do accept it and are prepared to co-operate, I do not think it is diplomatic to tell them that they have cooperated, and that they must remember that by co-operating they have accepted separate development as such. I must say that this is not the answer.

He is very petty.

Petty? Do not talk nonsense.

I should like to proceed from where I stopped when I spoke last time. I said our major task should be the building up of mutual trust. In this particular regard I was indicating to the House that I accept that the intentions of the late Dr. Verwoerd were sincere when he originally introduced the concept of Bantu Education. I, who opposed him, accept that his intentions were sincere, because he was of the opinion that it would be in the best interests of the Blacks. The fact remains, however, that a kind of distrust developed over the years because of certain statements that were made. We should simply accept that this is so and not blame one another for it. From now on we have to try to avoid it. This is the spirit in which I want to approach it Now I want to pose the question in what way we can attempt to prove that a new spirit prevails.

Order! Hon. members must not converse so loudly.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think the time has arrived for us to give tangible evidence with regard to things which affect the vast mass of the Black people. One must not only quote statistics, but do something dramatic. A dramatic step virtually within reach of the hon. the Minister’s department, is to announce that we shall have free education in South Africa in, say, 1980 or 1981.

†In this connection I know that hon. members will say that it is impossible and that it will require vast sums of money. The fact is, however, that if we were to sit down and make a calculation, we would see that we are already so close to this ideal that the time has come that we can in fact announce this. For instance, one finds in last year’s report that secondary school pupils already get their text books free and that only the prescribed books are not supplied free. They also have to buy their own stationery. Last year an amount of R99,5 million was spent on primary and secondary education and for this year the figure is R110 million. That represents less than 1% of the total expenditure of R11 000 million in South Africa. Even if one is called upon to double the relevant amount, it will be found that it is within the means of South Africa; but, of course, it will not have to be doubled. I think a proper calculation will show that the amount required will be in the region of R20 million to R30 million. If we were to do something dramatic like that, something which would immediately affect every single parent in South Africa, it would demonstrate the goodwill on the part of the Government.

The other point I wish to reiterate—and I am glad the hon. the Minister spoke about it as well—is that we must try to ensure that at all levels the greatest co-operation with the Black community is obtained. In view of the fact that a political problem is attached to the control of education, it is of the utmost importance that one should ensure co-operation at all levels.

I also wish to refer briefly to the Wiehahn and Riekert reports.

*If there is something that can urge us on, if there is something that strengthens the hand of the hon. the Minister to persuade the Cabinet to make a larger contribution to the education of Blacks, it is the Wiehahn and Riekert reports. Many of the things in the Wiehahn report will simply remain a dream if we cannot succeed in raising the level of education of the mass of potential workers in South Africa.

†I now wish to refer to another matter. The hon. member for Pinelands asked for an investigation, an inquiry into the possible coordination of the work of the various departments, an inquiry into the needs of South Africa’s educational scene as such. By all means let us have such an inquiry, but at this particular point in time where the Public Service Commission is busy restructuring the whole Public Service, we should set up a permanent bureau for the co-ordination of education for all races. We can still have our separate departments of education; I do not want to become involved in that One needs such a bureau in a country where all population groups are involved in the same economy and are competing on the same labour market. There must be this coordination. One cannot achieve it by simply having advisory committees. Any hon. Minister will in fact have some sort of advisory committee. For example, White education has its advisory committees. There must be one particular body, and it must be within the Public Service, which as an ongoing process can evaluate the educational system and in fact at all times determine the real educational priorities. Above all, they should also at all times know exactly what the educational needs in South Africa are, because otherwise we shall all be doing our own thing. This is the one thing that I believe can be slotted in permanently, even within the philosophy of separate development. This cannot be done, however, on an ad hoc basis or from time to time. It will have to be a permanent body with a directorate or secretariat, and it will have to be structured within the Public Service. In this respect we shall perhaps later on have to devise a political system that can exercise proper control over a body like this. For the time being, however, and as we see it, that sort of co-operation would be possible even within the policy of separate development.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to refer briefly to one small point the hon. member for Durban Central mentioned here when he reacted to the speech of the hon. the Deputy Minister. It is unnecessary to attack our education principles at this stage and to speak as if we have to have all education under one department I do not think it will be possible for the policy of the NP, that of separate development and the attendant education policy—and in this regard I want to agree with the hon. the Deputy Minister—to be changed by any commission of inquiry or committee. It will not be possible to change our viewpoint and therefore it is unnecessary to discuss this any further.

I therefore want to concentrate mainly on another facet of training, but before I do that, I also want to convey my appreciation for the interest here in this important subject and important department. This evening I also want to congratulate in particular our hon. Minister as well as the former Minister and their department on the work that has been done. Everyone who read this report, must be impressed by the thoroughness of the Department of Education and Training. Moreover, when one considers the hon. the Minister, it becomes clear that he carries out his task with inspiration. He does it with devotion and regards education and training in South Africa as a challenge. This is true, because the person who works with the child and really understands the task of education realizes that he is forming a nation. The thoroughness with which the child is equipped will to a great extent determine the success of his life as adult. Therefore it is a task that should be done with devotion and inspiration. Therefore we also want to convey our gratitude to the department and the hon. the Minister.

I am actually going to discuss a subdivision of education and training which is of great interest to me personally, i.e. public in service training in the White industrial complexes. We have eight such centres and one of them is the centre for the training of fanners or agricultural employees at Boskop, Potchefstroom. If we consider this centre at Boskop and the work that is done there, I want to convey my gratitude in the first place to a few people and institutions who have done exceptional work here. In the first place, in my opinion, we owe a great debt of gratitude to the State that not only assisted in the establishment of the eight centres throughout the country, but also made R2 million available for capital works, buildings and equipment. The State, in fact, gave the farmer, the entrepreneur and the employer income tax exemptions to encourage him to send his employees to this institution, and we are grateful for that.

In the second place, I should also like to convey my gratitude to the industries who seconded technicians as instructors to the training centre at Boskop. Furthermore, I think it is a good thing for us to take cognizance and know that our agricultural control boards, with the approval of our hon. the Minister of Agriculture, gave financial and other assistance to this centre by way of the various commodities they supply. Thus the Dairy Board helped this centre to obtain the milking machines and the cows they use to milk there, as well as the artificial insemination courses.

Finally, I should also like to convey our gratitude to the local control board of the Boskop centre. I think this control board has done a very good job. This evening I want to mention in particular the name of the vice-president of the South African Agricultural Union, Mr. Jaap Wilkens, who is also the chairman of the control board. From the outset he promoted this cause in the farming community. We should like to convey our thanks to him.

Over the past three decades farming practices and farming methods have changed tremendously. Thirty years ago it was the exception rather than the rule for a farmer to have a tractor. Thirty years ago oxen, horses and donkeys provided the tractive power and the work on the farm was done by manpower and by hand. Since then we have imported many thousands of tractors into South Africa and virtually no oxen are used any more. A great deal of the work on the farm is done by machinery. Mechanization has virtually taken over.

At present it is nothing exceptional to sec two or three large tractors on a farm, each of which costs approximately R30 000, R40 000 or R50 000. Our big combines cost approximately R40 000 or R50 000. It is the general practice to have these large, expensive machines on the farm. This machine has to be driven and maintained and the optimum use has to be made of it, but often by someone who has not yet had the necessary training to do this work An institution such as Boskop did a lot to alleviate this need. It is even impossible for the farmer or entrepreneur, with his many activities on the farm, to find the time to ensure that the person has the necessary training, nor can he provide his labourers on the farm with guidance in order to utilize his labour force optimally. For that reason this institution was absolutely essential.

If we look at the courses offered at Boskop, it is interesting to know that courses are being offered on the driving and maintenance of tractors, lorries and combines and that licences are issued for these. Tonight I should really like to convey our appreciation, on behalf of the farmers, to the department and all our provincial authorities for the fact that it was agreed to issue licences at Boskop to the people of the farmers of the Transvaal and the Cape Province who received training there which is recognized by the provincial authorities. This is a concession that was made last week, and we should like to convey our gratitude for it.

People are taught here, inter alia, to handle these big machines, to maintain, care for and operate them. They are taught furthermore, to apply complicated techniques, such as the scientific use of a milking machine, the maintenance of the dairy herd, artificial insemination, spraying techniques, irrigation techniques and systems as well as the maintenance, the use and the best methods to apply. This evening I really want to congratulate the Control Board on their farsightedness, planning and the establishment of the practical things necessary on the farm. These are some of the most important courses being offered at Boskop, and some of the things we need most. We are very grateful for that.

Finally we ask ourselves how one tests the success of an institution such as Boskop. I think that one should ask in the first place whether the farmers who sent the labourers there are satisfied. I can say this evening that the farmers who have sent their people to this institution described the results in the most glowing terms. Our people are absolutely convinced that it pays many times over to send these people there, because the person who returns is worth using. In the agricultural sector the farmers are prepared to pay for good, productive labourers. This man returns as someone who is really proud of his work. He returns as a proud specialist. He returns as someone with a certificate in his pocket. He returns in the knowledge that he knows his subject and that he will be better able to meet the needs of his family. He also returns as someone who is grateful to his employer for having had the confidence in him to send him there. Finally he returns as someone who knows that he can do the work. He enters the future with confidence. Moreover, that labourer returns to the farm with a far better attitude to the other farm labourers. I want to make it clear this evening that the labourer who has attended Boskop has not only gained knowledge. For that I want to thank the management and the staff. Not only did they convey knowledge to those labourers, but they also educated them and improved their feeling towards their employers, towards other race groups, towards the production of the farm, and towards many other things. They made that labourer realize that he is a link in a chain and that if he does his part, success can be achieved.

Mr. Chairman, I want to begin by replying at once to a few of the matters raised by hon. members. Since I am aware that the hon. member for Heilbron has an appointment with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture shortly, I shall begin by replying to his speech.

I believe that it is necessary for me, on behalf of my department, to associate myself with what the hon. member and others have said and to elaborate on it. If there is a group of people in South Africa who deserve a special word of thanks from the department and the Black people, then it is the farming community of South Africa. A number of hon. members have touched on this in passing. The hon. member for Witwatersberg in particular, and various other hon. members too, have referred to this, and the hon. member for Heilbron has also just referred to it I might just mention in passing that I hope that provision will be made in the regulations that will follow on the new legislation, for more ample recognition of the work done by the farming community of South Africa over the years for our Black population, recognition by way of subsidies that will be paid for the construction of buildings. I believe that subsidies of this nature paid over the years have been inadequate. I also have in mind subsidies for the building of houses for teachers and for the provision of other essential facilities and for more of those facilities for which farmers themselves have had to be responsible in the past.

It is interesting to note—and this is why I referred to it—the spontaneous development that has occurred in the development of our way of thinking with regard to this whole matter of people living together with us in this country. It is interesting to note that when a start was made about five to six years ago on the institution at Boskop—I was Deputy Minister at the time—with the instruction to establish that institution, a complaint was lodged against me with the former Prime Minister because we wanted to establish such an institution. I say this so that our farming community can be aware of it. The hon. the Minister of Agriculture can also take cognizance of it Protest against this project emanated from the farming community itself. They argued that it would result in the platteland going Black. I am merely mentioning the facts. However, at the time it was possible to make a start on the institution due to the mediation of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and others, including people from the S.A. Agricultural Union. Fortunately, with the co-operation we subsequently enjoyed from members of the management of the Agricultural Union, it was possible to extend that institution, and it has developed into the tremendous success it is today as the hon. member for Hillbrow also indicated. I myself, having an interest in farming as I do, suffer my losses year after year and apply for a subsidy year after year—I do not get it every year, of course—and I also pay the higher rail tariffs year after year, and I protest against them year after year too. In any event, what can I do about the fact that I have an interest which compels me sometimes to put a few questions to myself, questions which I have asked before today? A farmer has a vehicle on his farm which has cost him between R4 000 and R5 000, which he never under any circumstances gives to his farm labourer to drive to town on a tarred road, nor even on the road to the gate of his farm. No other man drives in it. Then he buys a tractor for R12 000 and, while it is brand new, puts a labourer on that tractor and tells him to drive it through dongas and ditches—not on a tarred road or on a gravel road. I am amazed that we can sometimes do such things on farms. I do not say this to be derogatory, because I myself have done it I want to give an undertaking to the farming community. Whereas representations have been received from the Agricultural Union, individual farmers and farming associations, I think it is time at least to afford the farming community a greater degree of recognition for the work they have done to assist us in our work. As far as possible, and after consultation with the various authorities and the farming community, we are going to create better training facilities for people who want to live and work on the platteland.

If they are people who do not want to return to the platteland after having studied in other fields, we nevertheless want the parents of those children, who work for the farmers and want a better dispensation for their children, to feel that their children can enjoy the privilege of receiving the training which will enable them to progress to more responsible positions in life. The necessary supplementary subsidies and aids will be ultimately provided for the service rendered to train our Black youth in South Africa, to ensure that the quality of the facilities and the quality of the people who have to provide the training, is improved to such an extent that the rural child is not worse off than the city dweller who enjoys all the privileges. By doing so, we hope to express our thanks in a tangible way—I am now doing it verbally— to the farming community for services rendered over many years.

I shall see to it that you get a slaughter animal for that!

I shall hold the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to his promise. However, I know him well enough to realize that I haven’t a hope of seeing that promise kept. More seriously, however, I just want to say that there is one thing that we must bear in mind, and I hope that there are no people living in places like Pretoria and Johannesburg who will take it amiss of me for saying it. There is something we must bear in mind when we consider the Black youth on the platteland. Who of us who have come to the cities from the platteland do not remember with nostalgia the things we enjoyed on the platteland? There is something in a rural atmosphere which creates a kind of stability in any person who grew up in a rural atmosphere. I can attest with deep gratitude to the influence that the platteland has had on all people irrespective of the colour of their skins. Earlier, the hon. the Deputy Minister mentioned the name of Prof. Nkabinde, rector of the University of Zululand. He came from my part of the world and underwent his training under very difficult circumstances but, to use the English expression, he will remain a down-to-earth gentleman throughout his life. He is a person whom one can look up to with great respect. I thank the farmers for what they have done and I hope they will continue to assist us in this work.

Now there are a few general questions I should like to reply to because I think I should express my gratitude for a very positive debate. I also think I am speaking on behalf of my officials because they too have intimated that this has been a very positive debate, productive of very positive ideas.

†In the first place the hon. member for Pinelands spoke honestly about what he thought was something that should receive attention and which I agree must at all times be brought to the notice of this department and the Government. That is the undoubted suspicion that Blacks have against this department I regret that I have to agree that this is very much the case. I think, however, it is the bounden duty of every responsible member to allay these fears of people and to tell them that there is no cause—or at least not as much cause—for the suspicion which still exists. After all, I think I can say without fear of contradiction that we as Whites in this country need not have a guilty conscience in this regard. If I think of what has been achieved in this country of ours, by the people of this country, then we have reason to be proud of what we have achieved with the limited means at our disposal.

I want to repeat what I said previously in this debate, namely I do not want to start comparing, because comparisons are odious. It is not because I am complacent or self-satisfied, but when my people or my Government stand accused in the dock, I think I should be permitted at least to cite examples of what has been achieved or what has not been achieved. In Southern Africa, south of the Limpopo there are certain territories which were never included in the geographical area of South Africa. Those are the areas which were known as the protectorates of Bechuanaland, Swaziland and Basutoland. I know that we may have achieved more and should have achieved more, but when we start comparing what we Whites have in Pretoria, in Witbank, in Cape Town and elsewhere with what our Black people have in the former Protectorates, I would merely like to pose a question to our friends in the British Empire who so often under the guidance—and I say it with a full sense of my responsibility—of people like Dr. Owen accuse all of us in South Africa of treating the Blacks in this country unjustly. I should like to ask Dr. Owen whether he can tell me how the education of White people in Great Britain compared with that afforded to Black people in the former British protectorates.

Why do you not ask Lord Carrington?

I can ask Lord Carrington that too, and I can ask it of the hon. member for Hillbrow, because he also joins the ranks of those accusing his own people. I do not want to start a quarrel among ourselves, but let us at least be fair to our own people and to our history. The mighty Great Britain and the mighty Belgium took what they could out of Africa, and what did they leave behind? The UN have been pumping money into the continent of Africa. How do the standards they have achieved in those countries compare with what we have managed to achieve in our country? In saying this I do not say that we have attained what we should achieve.

The hon. member has asked me whether we should not appoint a commission of inquiry to find out what is wrong and how we can make improvements. I shall at all times be willing to consider that. I want to mention in passing that a recommendation has already gone out from the Department of National Education to the effect that we should have some sort of consulting body, or whatever one wishes to call it, where we can discuss matters of common interest to the different education departments. Personally—and I am saying it at a stage when I have only been in charge of this department for four months—I think there is much work to be done in the department itself. We ourselves can do the work that an interdepartmental body can do because we have to co-operate with other departments in any event I personally have a bee in my bonnet about commissions of inquiry which can go on for months and months without ever producing any results. Perhaps there is some truth in what the well known economist Peter Drucker once said, namely that he would much rather prefer to have work done efficiently than to see plans worked out with the greatest of efficiency, plans which can never be implemented because of other factors being in the way. We would rather start from the bottom and work for what is practical, for what is demanded from day to day, than to work on the long term.

Why not both?

I agree that we can do both. It is something to be considered. I can promise the hon. member that we shall look at this in time to come. I hope we shall be able to look at it after the passing of the new Act. The hon. member for Durban Central also mentioned this.

Mr. Chairman, may I just remind the hon. the Minister that I have asked a specific question about page 103 of the report?

Yes, and I was coming to that I hope the hon. member will permit me just to say in passing that the hon. member for Durban Central has also mentioned this. We can certainly consider whether we cannot work out ways and means of joining forces and of combining our efforts to work out a better solution for the future. I am always open to conviction, and I am sure that my department is of the same opinion in this regard. I think the question of the hon. member for Pinelands concerning 103 of the report is mainly based on the following—

Yes.

This report is not yet complete. I welcome the opportunity of correcting an impression I may have given in my introductory speech by saying that it may take 10 years or more before we can have, not universal, but countrywide compulsory education. I want to say what we have in mind at the moment. I think we can start introducing compulsory education on a regional basis. In other words, we shall not be working on a horizontal basis for the country as a whole in the sense that we will be introducing compulsory education up to standard 5 or standard 8. However, once we have succeeded in providing the necessary facilities and teachers in, for instance, Soweto or the smaller Sowetos, we may start introducing compulsory education on a regional basis.

That is something on which we are working at the moment to see how it can be worked out. It can be introduced in one particular area and then be extended to other areas as more facilities become available in those areas. However, I think one thing must be understood. How on earth—and I do not think anybody can quarrel with this—can I introduce compulsory education and take people to court because they are not sending their children to school if I know that in wide areas of the country we have no facilities and no teachers? What is the sense in telling the world that we have compulsory education if I know that we cannot introduce and enforce it?

Hear, hear! I agree.

However, that is what we have in mind. With the co-operation of all the parties concerned and of the people who are interested in education—I know there are such people all over the country—and with the assistance of the parents, the pupils and the committees, I think we can start with it sooner than most people think. Provided we can economically afford it, I think we can expand this very rapidly and achieve our goal very much sooner than most people would like to think at the moment.

*I should like to convey my sincere thanks to the hon. member for Virginia who is also chairman of our caucus committee and chairman of the Select Committee, for his very thorough work and leadership. I am not going to take up time by replying in detail to everyone who spoke. They also assisted me in replying to certain questions put by hon. members of the Opposition. I think it is necessary to say that I do not believe that we should divide our attention at the moment by talking about one department for all education. I have said that there is an idea that has been advanced by National Education to establish a consultative body, and if this could eventually develop into something different in which we could negotiate with all the departments, then that is something which we could consider at a later stage. At the moment, however, the needs of this department are so distinctive that I believe we must confine ourselves to doing as much as possible ourselves.

The hon. member for Gezina rightly referred to the shortage of teachers that we are faced with. He made a plea for counselling. He can rest assured—and I hope that other hon. members, too, will take cognizance of this from the annual report—that this problem is being worked on and that we hope that relief may be afforded in this regard.

†The hon. member for Durban Central also mentioned—and unhappily it is so—that this is not only an educational problem, but also a political problem. Whilst regretfully having to agree with him, may I appeal to him to help me as much as possible to keep this whole issue out of the political arena and to confine ourselves to educational arguments, because we know that in the end education will be the deciding factor in deciding the future of the peoples, and the children especially, of this country. I agree of course that we have to have a priority list and we have to have mutual trust in each other. All I can say is that I trust the people with whom I am working.

*I appeal to all hon. members not to have any part, in any respect, not even unwittingly, in the undermining of that confidence, as hon. members on this side of the House have requested. It takes years to build up confidence and it takes just one day to break down that confidence. All it needs is one careless word.

Mr. Chairman, if you will permit me to sound a personal note, I just want to point out that I have never been a party to attacks on people, whether in this House or at places where people cannot defend themselves. Nor have I ever, so far as I could help it, been a party to attacks on the Press, except on extreme provocation. However, I think I must appeal to the Press. It is easy to cause a sensation and one can find many readers for an exceptional report. I am going to quote an example to illustrate this. In the Ladysmith region there was a farm school which functioned outstandingly over the years. A church had a say in the school, it was a flourishing school and five houses were built for the teachers. Everything was going well, but then that farm school was sold.

I am saying it this evening in this House but I shall say it outside the House too, that there were newspaper reports to the effect that a man had bought that farm and immediately closed the school without giving anyone notice. I personally thought that there could have been reasons for this because there are two sides to everything. Therefore it was no humiliation for me to phone the man and tell him that he was causing racial friction and dissatisfaction and to ask him whether he could not keep that school open. He promised me that he would do so. I even took the further step of requesting the Secretary of the department to phone that man as well. The Secretary did so and he also directed the regional director of our department and the regional director at Bloemfontein to go and speak to that man personally. They went to speak to him and he promised them that the school could stay open. The negative side of the matter is that having promised that, he nevertheless summarily closed the school down. It could have been left at that, but the newspapers made a sensation of it, people’s opinions were called for and the newspapers achieved their circulation. What did not achieve circulation, however, was the fact that when the man said that he was going to close the school and the children would therefore simply be left high and dry, for whatever reasons, we went out of our way to ask other farmers whether they could not perhaps assist the Black children. Within 10 days we obtained prefabricated buildings through the good officers of the Natal Provincial Administration, and with the assistance of two other farmers, those schools and houses for the teachers were built At present those schools meet the requirements there more effectively and there is a happier community and happier people. Apart from the thanks I wish to convey to the officials and the department for this, I also want to say: There is an open door to the departments and there are open doors to enable people to settle these matters amicably without harming our country as a result of the wilful and indifferent conduct of one man. When such problems crop up they can be solved without leaving deep wounds.

†I must thank the hon. member for Houghton for saying a few kind words about me and about my dreams for the future. I am afraid that I do at times dream dreams. I can remember the occasion, when the hon. the Deputy Minister was appointed in my place in this department when I said to him, as I congratulated him on his appointment, not to worry about what the hon. member for Houghton had to say about him; she said the same thing about me. The first welcome that I received when I was brought back to this department as Minister was a word of welcome from the hon. member for Houghton, who said: “What he knows about Bantu people, you can put in one eye.” I do not know whether I have become blind in the meantime, but the second time the welcome was not as hearty as on the first occasion. Nevertheless, whatever she thinks of me, I have always respected her views. I know that I do not agree with her. But no man in his right senses would, even in her own party. But this does not in any way lessen the regard that I have for her. So I shall forgive her the silly things she said in the past and will undoubtedly say also in the future. I want to thank the hon. member for Houghton for taking part in the debate. Debates are always that more interesting when she takes part. I can assure hon. members that I always take note, whether I agree with her or not, of what she says. But while I do take notice, I have to cross swords with her immediately by asking her: What exactly is meant with free education? With all the respect in the world, what do we mean when we start using terms such as “free education”? I know that we mean free tuition, but I know of no free education anywhere in the world, although I know of free tuition. Completely free education, and I want to repeat it with all respect, is taken by the Black people to mean that they can go there and do not have to pay for their uniforms, books or transport. Everything, including the meals are just free. I ask hon. members please not to go about with this type of expression. They are misleading people, albeit not intentionally. They create the wrong impressions. There is no such thing as free education. Whites in this country do not enjoy free education. We have to pay for it too, even though we only have to pay for uniforms or books.

Quite honestly, I would hate the day when free education is implemented. Do I have to provide free books to people so that they can destroy them, bum them because they have no pride in them? What is worth more—if I remember my days at school—than to be able to buy a book, knowing that I at least have to look after it, so that it can become part of my life, without having to hand it back some time or another?

If they do not look after it, they have to pay for it as well.

It can be. It can be departmental books or something else, but not free books, pencils and pens. People should not be told that they could have this free gratis and for nothing. I think we should be careful in advocating that.

I realize too that what the hon. member has said is the truth. We still have a low percentage in the lower classes. It worries me as much as it worries her. It also worries the department However, we are at least progressing. We need the under-qualified teacher. There is a lot of work to be done to keep up the standards and not only progressing as far as quantity is concerned, but to remain on the quality basis which we have achieved up till now. I think we should jealously guard the quality which we have been able to achieve up till now.

So we are all aiming at the same goal. Let us work together and see what we can achieve. I agree that the Wiehahn Commission and the Committee into tertiary education can recommend things that may bring about vast changes. I know that the Wiehahn Commission and the Riekert Commission have recommended certain things which will make it imperative for us to consult with the Department of Labour and other departments to see that we do not train people for a B.A. or B.Sc. degree with which they will have to go and work as labourers on the Railways, as was the case with the Afrikaners in 1933. What is the sense of training a person to become a doctor of arts if there is no way of selling his degree on the labour market? We shall have to attend to the needs of the labour market. We have to attend to how a person can earn a living and provide for this children. We shall have to go into the technical field, if it is needed.

We are already consulting with the people in the labour field, the Department of Labour and other people, to see how this can be achieved. We shall be looking forward to the debate in this House to see how we can go about it.

As always, the hon. member for Standerton made a valuable contribution. I thank him for what he said about the dam at Renosterkop.

*I do not know whether he will be able to come to an, agreement with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. The day the farmer has to pay income tax he values his land at R4 per morgen, but when he wants to sell it to file roads department, the land is worth R200 per morgen. That is how it goes among our farmers. [Interjections.] Therefore I do not know whether I shall reach agreement with the hon. the Minister of Agriculture but I thank the hon. member for the suggestion in any event. The character formation that can take place at these holiday farms is of the greatest value. I might just mention to the hon. member that we have already begun arranging such outings. Amazingly good work is already being done by the department over the past year to establish such recreation facilities. However, we shall have to establish more sports and recreation facilities for the people and I am therefore very pleased that the hon. member touched on this matter.

The hon. member for Alberton quite rightly pointed out what an endless task remains to be done in the field of adult education. I think I could just supplement that by saying that we must take into account the fact that there are people who have worked in the Department of Education for years with meagre qualifications but with the greatest dedication. As Afrikaners who remember the years around 1933, we know about this situation from our own experience. We also know about people who were not qualified but who worked with love and dedication. This is a very personal matter and I ought not really to mention it here but my late father, a man for whose intelligence, honesty and many other qualities I could never have enough respect, had a Std. 2 certificate. However, he progressed to become manager of a very important business enterprise. There are such people in the Black education department too, people who have endured difficult circumstances and worked with dedication. However, there is one question I want to ask.

†In 15 years time, when we have trained these people well, what are we going to do with those who are not qualified, but who have had years of experience and years of devotion to duty? How are we going to provide for them? We will have to attend to their needs too. These people will have to be trained.

*As the hon. member for Alberton said these people must be afforded the opportunity to improve their qualifications so that they can study further in one or other field.

I have already replied to the hon. member for Marico. If I have omitted to reply to certain hon. members it is not out of wilfulness, but out of appreciation for the fact that they have replied on my behalf to the arguments advanced by other hon. members who have taken part in the debate. If there are any specific questions which I have not replied to in the course of the debate I shall reply to them in writing with pleasure. If there are five minutes or so available before the end of the debate, the hon. the Deputy Minister or I will reply to them further.

In conclusion, I just want to take this opportunity to point out that to me, what is being said in this debate this evening interprets a major part of our ideals. I want to quote a few thoughts, thoughts which are not my own. They are the prophetic words uttered at an Afrikaans university in 1961 by a man from whom one would not have expected them. I shall quote only certain words from that speech. He also spoke on that occasion about immigrants and the possibilities for students in this country. I quote fragments of his speech—

Later in his speech he goes on—

Still later in his speech he states—

I shall conclude with the words with which he ended his speech—

These are words uttered in 1961 by Dr. H. F. Verwoerd at the opening of the Engineering faculty of the University of Pretoria.

In concluding the discussion of this Vote this evening I, too, say that the Black people are also children of South Africa. It is our task and our privilege to provide them with the training they need. They will assist us to build a happier South Africa. I thank hon. members for their contributions.

Mr. Chairman, what has interested me most, I think, in the hon. the Minister’s reply to the debate so far, has been his honesty. I think that all of us can learn from that. I recall, for example, that normally when reference is made to suspicion and cynicism amongst Blacks towards this department, to cover it up I am usually accused of being the cause of it Here is an hon. Minister, however, who does not try to do that but says instead: Yes, you are right, that is the case, so let us try and do what we can to minimize and eliminate it as much as possible. I am with him, in those sentiments, all the way. I do not think we get rid of problems by covering them up. I think we have to deal with them as honestly and as constructively as possible. I therefore very much appreciate the hon. the Minister’s approach in this regard.

Let me now refer again to the commission of inquiry which I suggested. I want to make it quite clear to the hon. the Minister and other hon. members of this House that there was no thought in my mind whatsoever that the department should stop the valuable work it is doing or that any inquiry should interfere, in any degree, with what the department is already doing. The Wiehahn Commission of Inquiry into labour matters, for example, carried out its investigations whilst the work in management and labour continued normally. All I am saying is that there is a great deal of work to be done now. I believe that if we are going to do the best for the future we need to plan simultaneously on a short-term basis, with new legislation, moving ahead, developing as we have in relation to this report, but also looking further into the future. I am quite sure that there are sufficient people in South Africa who have the skills and experience to benefit all of us, this department and the other Departments of Education.

Naturally I am in agreement with the request and the tentative plans of the Department of National Education to have a co-ordinating link between all the departments. I am quite sure that that is the right place to start, and who knows where that might lead us? I also say to the hon. the Deputy Minister that when I speak about a Department of Education I am not, for one moment, suggesting one large, bureaucratic whole. Of course decentralization is of the essence in South Africa. In fact, that is what we have now in the different departments, and I think we are going to have more of it in the future.

Reference has already been made to trying to start where we can start, i.e. in the regional areas. I agree with the hon. the Deputy Minister. Centralization is not my intention. Let me try to explain my intention. If one is going to try to deal with the perceptions of a very large group of people in this country, and if one is going to try to resolve conflict, or potential conflict, in South Africa peacefully, one of the ways in which to do it is in the way I have proposed. I am not suggesting for a moment that it is acceptable to that side of the House, but I believe that it could well be done within the framework of the Nationalist Government’s own policy. It could obviously not be done within the framework of our policy because we are not in control. I commend the hon. the Minister on his approach to regional planning. I think he is absolutely right If we are going to wait until we can introduce compulsory education everywhere before we do anything, we are finished. We simply have to go where we are strongest, where we have the teachers, the facilities and the people, and we can do that I fully appreciate that that is where we ought to do it, whatever it be. Whether it be in the supplying of textbooks, the construction of buildings, increases, getting rid of double sessions or the improvement of teachers, let us build where we can, because we shall never be able to do it in one fell swoop. It is too big and impossible a task for that.

The hon. the Minister told us that the report that I referred to has not yet been completed. I accept that Could he please tell us, if it is possible, when that report is going to be available because, as I mentioned earlier today, if one looks at the terms of reference and the areas covered, one sees that it is an absolutely vital report Obviously those of us who are interested in and committed to the department would like to see the report if possible, or, if that is not possible, we would at least like some word from the department and the hon. the Minister’s own comments and response when the report does become available.

I am told that it will be within six months.

Thank you very much.

The hon. the Minister also referred to farm schools. Surprisingly enough, we have had very little reference to and discussion on farm schools in this debate, because very often they figure very largely in debates, and understandably so. I asked a question earlier this year about farm schools, because I believe they play a very significant role in education today and will do so for a very long time to come. I asked how many farm schools for Black children there are in the so-called White area of the Republic. I think that those hon. members who are perhaps new to this debate will be very surprised indeed to learn that there are 4 556 such schools. When one thinks about it, this is quite a remarkable effort. The total number of children attending such schools is 420 085 and the number enrolled in Std. 5 is 12 363.

I think there is only one matter which is of concern for this Committee, and the hon. the Minister has, in fact, referred to it in the example he gave concerning Ladysmith. Whether he would have learned about it as quickly as he did without the assistance of the Press, I do not know. Perhaps the Press rendered a service by focusing on the problems, since that action brought about the response. I further asked whether any such farm schools were closed during 1978, and if so, how many. The answer supplied by the hon. the Minister’s department was that 47 had been closed. That is quite a large number of schools to close in a single year. I asked for a breakdown of this figure and was informed that 4 schools closed in the Cape, 14 in the Orange Free State, 9 in Natal, 12 in the Southern Transvaal and 8 in the Northern Transvaal. So, schools have closed virtually all over the country. I further asked what the reasons were for the closures. The department, quite understandably, replied that there were various reasons and that in most of the cases schools were closed because the owners did not wish to have schools on their farms. Thank goodness this does not apply to the majority. The fact of the matter is, however, that it is very difficult for parents, and children, to have any security as far as the future of the children is concerned when they know there is a possibility that their school can be closed down overnight Surely this means that, whatever else the department does, it must ensure that we move as swiftly as possible away from this system, as good and as unavoidable as it has been in the past If it is dependent upon the whims and fancies of a particular owner of a farm—and many farms are changing ownership all the time and some farms are going out of business, as the hon. the Minister of Agriculture well knows—it means that overnight these children may lose their school and their future may be jeopardized. It is very difficult to be secure under these circumstances.

We are working on a method of getting greater security of tenure. We are discussing the matter with the Department of Agriculture.

I am very delighted to hear that this is happening. I believe it is essential and I hope the hon. the Minister and his department will move swiftly in regard to this matter for the very reasons I have outlined.

You are making a good speech.

Thank you very much. That is high praise.

Mr. Chairman, finally I want to refer to Mamelodi and the in-service training. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pinelands, who has just resumed his seat, referred to the 4 565 private schools in the rural areas and he said that 47 of them had closed down in one year. He will concede that this is a very small percentage. He must accept the hon. the Minister’s explanation that the department did its utmost to re-open the schools, which had been closed down due to circumstances, on other farms and that the department succeeded in doing so in many cases. He explained in detail what trouble they took in this regard.

I should like to convey my congratulations to the hon. the Minister and thank him, the hon. the Deputy Minister and the department for the dedication with which they are performing their task. The hon. the Minister said that a situation could arise in South Africa in which one would find Black people with B. A. degrees working on roads or for the Railways.

He also asked what we were going to do with those people who were not qualified. I now want to discuss this subject. The fields in which these people should qualify themselves—and very rapidly too—are the technical and vocational fields. I just want to point out to hon. members how important this matter is. In this regard I want to refer to the report of the Riekert Commission. Under the heading “teachers training, etc.”, on page 81 of the report, the commission says the following—

The commission goes on to emphasize the importance of this aspect as follows—

To emphasize the importance of this aspect further, I just want to point out to hon. members that at the congress of the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut which ended only recently, the Postmaster-General, Mr. Louis Rive, addressed an appeal to the private sector to contribute their legitimate share with regard to the training of staff. He pointed out that the Department of Posts and Telecommunications had lost 2 590 trained technicians over the past five years and that it had cost the department approximately R28 million to train these people. Mr. Rive also said that the situation had arisen that trained staff were literally for sale. He said that the private sector literally bought these people away from the bodies providing the training. He went on to say that the private sector really bought these trained people very inexpensively, because it was much more inexpensive for them to purchase these people by offering them a higher salary than to train them themselves. In the past very few opportunities have existed for well qualified Black people in the technical fields. In the past we imported White technicians, but according to the Wiehahn and Riekert reports it is now clear that in future, owing to a rapid growth in the economy, we shall have to train our own people in this field and that there is a very great need for trained people. Blacks tended to think, and another hon. member pointed this out, too, that their salvation lay in academic training and white collar jobs. However, the salvation of the great mass of the Blacks lies in technical training in which more opportunities arise as the industrial agreements have constantly been amended and will be amended further as we see now. The department is doing its utmost to ensure that technical education receives its rightful place, as I just want to indicate briefly.

We see in the annual report—and I want to thank the department for this fine annual report—that the Mongosuthu College was planned in 1978 for technical education in Umlazi. We also see that the Mmadikoti College for Advanced Technical Education near Pietersburg was planned that year. The University of Fort Hare is also investigating the possibility of the introduction of a three-year agricultural diploma for agricultural teachers. I want to go on to point out what the department is doing in this regard. In the first place they have the departmental technical centres; in the second place the technical high schools; and in the third place their in-service training. In the fourth place they have Government industrial schools providing crash courses and then they have trade training as well.

As far as the technical centres are concerned, I just want to point out in brief that these people attend ordinary schools. From there they are transported by bus free of charge to receive technical training and during 1978 13 199 pupils were trained at these centres. At the technical high schools, of which there are seven, 617 pupils were trained in 1978. There are eight public in-service training centres and during 1978 72 000 employees were trained. In addition there are the private in-service training centres, the private industrial in-service training centres, the ad hoc border industry schemes and the Government industrial schools providing crash courses. At present there are seven of these Government industrial schools and 697 persons were trained in those schools in 1978.

For trade training there are 17 full-fledged trade schools and since their establishment 9 000 students have already been trained at these institutions. I just want to point out that any Black artisan can obtain a full NTC III at these schools.

In conclusion I just want to point out that at present the demand for technicians exceeds the supply. For example, three technicians are necessary for every engineer or scientists. Competent technicians receive very good remuneration at present and I may just point out that a well-trained Black technician receives the same as a person with three years’ university training. Furthermore, he has the advantage that he can be trained while he is working and that his training costs him virtually nothing.

I want to suggest three things and point out what we can do to assist the department in its great task, because it cannot perform this task alone. In the first place I want to suggest that the Government and organized commerce join forces to train the Black people and that a selective tax be levied on private companies not training technicians, which can be paid into a training fund to cover the costs of training these people. In the second place practical education should possibly be transferred to the proposed Department of Manpower Development so that they may make their contribution in this regard. In the third place I think that Black universities may consider the introduction of diploma courses at Black universities in order to train the people in a technical field. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pinelands, made a very sound and reasonable contribution to this debate and as a junior backbencher I want to express my thanks to him for that. The hon. member must not feel too relaxed, though, because he made one statement to which I should like to react. He said that what he found particularly interesting in the debate and in the hon. the Minister’s replies, was the obvious honesty of the Minister. If the hon. member would only be receptive more often and open his ears and eyes, he would discover that the Ministers of the NP are all characterized by their honesty. What I found interesting in the hon. member’s contribution, was that every time he asked for something in his last speech, the hon. the Minister, even before he could formulate his question properly, had already said that the department was working on it and that it had almost been completed.

That shows that I will make a good Minister.

Unfortunately there was a time when Black education was a very popular target for attacks on the Government. This was the position because it could so easily happen that the education of the child could be abused, particularly because it is such a sensitive area to manage. I am pleased that the position has changed to such an extent—this was evident, too, from the tenor of this debate—that at this stage very few attacks, if any, can be made on the actions of the Department of Education and Training. That is why I am pleased that at this late stage of the debate I need not address a request to the hon. the Minister. In fact, I want to pay tribute to him.

What is a department in actual fact? To determine what a department is, one has to realize that it fundamentally consists of two essential factors. On the one hand there is a policy and the legislation of that department and on the other the staff. These two factors and their joint interaction, are what really make a department. There is not much to say about the former, i.e., the legislation and the policy, since this has already been done by several speakers on this side of the House. We are convinced that the principles and the policy we are implementing, are correct and we are convinced that the laws in terms of which we implement our policy, are generally acceptable.

Consequently I want to confine myself more to the second component of the department, i.e. the staff. In the annual report of the department comprehensive details on the department’s staff are furnished. I also want to avail myself of this opportunity to add my thanks and congratulations to those of other hon. members who have already mentioned the exceptional attributes of the annual report. This report is really a mine of information, particularly if one examines its statistical sections. One can consider the department’s activities from any angle, and the necessary statistics appear in this report.

The department is fortunate to have such an hon. Minister and hon. Deputy Minister at its head. I can say many complimentary things about these two people, but I am not going to do so. I am going to content myself with saying that they are two of the most capable and most dedicated people. It is probably not by chance that both of them were once clergymen and therefore deeply religious people. Since the present Secretary to the department was also the son of a missionary, it is not surprising that things are indeed going well with this department.

I do not want to go too far back in the history of the staff of the department and I shall begin with the previous Secretary to the department, the late Dr. Van Zyl. He was recognized as one of the greatest academics and experts on Black peoples and their cultures. In particular he knew the North Sotho well and could speak their language. The present Secretary, Mr. G. J. Rousseau, is also a leading expert in the field of Black culture in his own right He in turn knows the Tswana in particular, speaks their language well and knows their customs. Indeed he, as the son of a missionary, grew up with the culture and customs of these people, experienced them at first hand and is consequently completely conversant with them. He has devoted virtually his whole professional life to the education of the Black man, and I understand that he himself was once a teacher at Black schools, too.

If we now examine the details concerning staff structure more closely, we see that, for practical purposes, the staff is divided into three parts, viz. the officials in the central organization, the officials in the decentralized regional offices and the officials in the Black States. The officials of the central organization present an interesting picture. According to the report there are a few vacant posts, but a total of 88 posts have already been filled. Now it is interesting to note that only 27 of these staff members have no degrees or special diplomas. Twenty-eight of these staff members have one degree or an advanced diploma, and 33—more than a third of that head office staff—have more than one degree. This alone shows one what the quality of this staff at head office is.

As far as the regional organization is concerned, the White area in this country has been divided into six regions, of which each has its own regional director, with 44 ring inspectors. Then there are still 14 top officials, who have been seconded to the Black States, where they are filling important posts, such as those of Secretaries for Education, and special education advisers. All the people to whom I have now referred, are Whites who are applying themselves to and trying to improve the education of the Black man in our country. They are not serving in these posts to keep the Black people themselves out of the posts; on the contrary, their priority is still to help the Black people to help themselves and to train them so that they can take over these posts in due course to assist in pulling the wagon through the drift, up the steep banks and eventually over the level plains to the green pastures.

To illustrate a further interesting aspect, I can point out the position of Whites still serving on the teaching staff, who are still teaching at the schools. In the White area, with its six regional areas, out of a total number of 29 354 teachers, there are 318 White teachers. If one does not take into account the teachers in the primary schools, there are 293 White teachers, out of a total of 5 195.

It is therefore clear that. White teachers are still playing a very important role in the education of the Black people. The staff of this department are appointed very selectively and their calibre, qualifications, experience, personal characteristics and qualities and in particular their attitude towards an understanding of the problems which could be experienced in conveying knowledge to Black people and providing them with an education are taken into account Attention is also paid to the language aspect and a large number of the staff and inspectors can speak one or more of the Black languages fluently.

That is why there are so many reasons to be grateful to the staff and the department for what they are doing. That is why there are also various officials of the department who have already devoted a lifetime of service to this department and to Black education. Nor is it only long-serving people, but young and well-trained and qualified people too, who have joined the department and who, with the experience they gain in the department, are making such a success of this department that the Opposition could only in fact come with questions this evening, and little or no criticism.

If there is still time available, I should like to focus the spotlight on the 44 ring inspectors. They are well-trained people of quality. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am most grateful to the hon. Whip of the NP and to the hon. the Minister for giving me another few minutes to complete my previous speech. My speeches are obviously so well-appreciated, unlike those of hon. members to my left … [Interjections.]

Table it. [Interjections.]

All right. It is not oranges, of course. [Interjections.]

I should like to point out that the hon. member for Albany is a most perceptive man as it appears from his appreciation of the speeches I have made during the day. However, I should like to comment on his remark that I should open my eyes and ears and I should realize that all hon. Ministers are honest people. If he reads Hansard he will notice that again and again when some of us on this side of the House refer to the problem areas in the country we are immediately being accused of being the cause of those problem areas. That is the point I was trying to make earlier. We cannot refer to problem areas in the country without being blamed for their existence. [Interjections.] We are being blamed for the whole situation. [Interjections.] The hon. the Deputy Minister and I have often crossed swords over this very thing. Then he always says immediately: “Well, if it was not for you they would not be like that” [Interjections.] Now, the hon. the Deputy Minister knows that an accusation of that nature is not true. [Interjections.] He knows it is not true. However, I will not delay the House any longer. The hon. the Minister has been kind enough to grant me a little extra time, and I should just like to refer back to Mamelodi.

In par. 7.11, on page 119 of the 1978 annual report of the department, reference is made to in-service training of teachers. I remember visiting Mamelodi—it must have been some six or seven years ago—and being very impressed with what was going on there. I remember that at the time that was about the only in-service training centre in the country. I am not quite sure whether this is correct. Honestly, I know I am not quite accurate now. However, there are certainly very few of these in-service training centres in the country, and I remember being very impressed with what I saw happening there. What is said in the paragraph I have already referred to, interests me very much. I believe it is worth reading it out to the House—

I should also like to refer to the final paragraph, on page 121, which reads as follows—

I believe that the department and the hon. the Minister should be strongly encouraged by this House to make in-service training centres of this kind one of its key priorities. Now, I know there are many priorities and many demands. However, the hon. the Minister himself has referred to the problem of teachers who are already engaged in the teaching function, but who have very few qualifications. Then there are also those who have some qualifications but who need to go beyond that, and who simply cannot stop teaching because they are too advanced in years and cannot afford further study. The only possibility they have of increasing their qualifications—the increasing of the qualifications of our teachers is perhaps one of our greatest needs—is through the in-service training method. I would commend the work that is being done, and also ask the hon. the Minister whether he could give the assurance that more places such as Mamelodi and Mabopane will be provided. We would be very interested to hear more about Mabopane in later debates, because I believe the department is on the right track in this regard.

Mr. Chairman, now that we have reached the end of this debate, I do not want to occupy the time of hon. members unnecessarily. However, it is a privilege for me to be able to reply to the speeches made by the hon. members for Vryheid and Albany. I also neglected—and I apologize for this—to reply to the speech made by the hon. member for Kimberley North. He brought, and quite rightly so, an important matter to my attention and to the attention of my department. It is the question of the large number of Std. 5 pupils who leave school and who, upon the termination of their school career, are left in mid-stream, as it were, because they do not receive further training. This is a major source of concern. But I have already pointed out that this matter is receiving attention and that the possibility exists, particularly since the school syllabus has been changed, of following at farm schools in particular, the grouping applicable at other schools. Previously pupils at Black farm schools received education up to Std. 4 only, principally owing to the fact that there was opposition to the extension of schooling to Std. 5. But that opposition has now been removed to a large extent. It is disturbing that so many pupils who, having progressed to Std. 5 only, are subsequently admitted to the teaching profession after the completion of only one course. In this case, too, I can only point out that it is our objective to effect, within the next three years or so, the position that no one will be admitted to a teachers’ training college without at least n matriculation certificate.

I should also like to thank the hon. member for Vryheid for the things he said. His contributions with regard to the reports of the Wiehahn and Riekert Commissions testify to an obviously thorough study. I do not want to say much about the subject simply because it is under discussion. The hon. member’s remarks in connection with further in-service training and training to be provided in the fields of commerce and industry, are things which are at present receiving the serious attention not only of the department, but also of the Government as a whole. I mentioned the fact that we are considering the transfer of certain facets of this training to the Department of Labour. This applies to technical training and the issuing of certificates in particular, and these things will consequently have to take place in consultation with the Department of Labour. If the hon. the Minister of Coloured Relations does not take it amiss of me, I believe I may, with a fair amount of pride, lay claim to the fact that it is really the Department of Education and Training that initiated the establishment of in-service training centres and the training courses which have now been taken over by the Departments of Indian Affairs and Coloured Relations, courses which, I hope, will be of as much value to them as to my own department.

I should like to thank the hon. member for Albany most sincerely for his friendly remarks with regard to our staff, the hon. the Deputy Minister and myself personally. But there is one thing which we should perhaps consider. Those of us who know Natal and places such as kwaZulu and the Transkei, will know what I am speaking of when I mention the officials of my department who have been seconded to the homelands and the border areas.

When we speak of the Great Trek and of people who conquered worlds and hearts, I wonder at times whether we realize that a similar great trek is in progress at present, a trek restricted not only to Afrikaans-speaking people, but including English-speaking people and other people too, people who are prepared to make sacrifices and often have to brave difficult circumstances and an unsure future for the sake of realizing the policy of live and let live. There are such people in our large Black residential areas, too, people performing their work under similar circumstances. I do not wish to be derogatory, but it is often none too pleasant for a White to work in circumstances of this nature, particularly in times of unrest and revolt. But this work has to be done, and is being done with great dedication.

Allow me to refer to one further small example. The system of double sessions existed in some of our schools, where two schools were, so to speak, accommodated in one school building and where there was no principal to exercise supervision and to accept responsibility. Consequently those school buildings were damaged time and again ad nauseam. We could not prevent this as it was impossible to obtain ombudsmen to guard those school buildings permanently. Consequently the schools were simply left unguarded, and were destroyed and damaged at night. This was a matter about which something had to be done, and consequently it is being done now.

Allow me to add that the so-called levies, or school levy funds, previously utilized for the reparation of damaged school buildings, will not be abolished. After consultations with Black people serving on the Education Advisory Council, as well as with Black members of the African Teachers’ Association of South Africa and the Transvaal United African Teachers’ Association, we decided to retain the levy funds, but that they would be allocated to the school committees and other interested authorities involved, such as principals and teacher and parent associations. The idea is to utilize this money in future for laying out sports-fields, erecting security fences, etc. In this way the Black people will also be able to co-operate as a community, as is the case with White school’s too, to improve their own facilities. After all it remains a fact that one is more proud of the things one has built up oneself than of those things one has received as a gift. That is why we want to afford Black parents and pupils the opportunity to organize their concerts and functions themselves, as is the case in White schools and in old established communities. But they should know that where they have made sacrifices, they may utilize the proceeds to obtain better facilities for their own children. What parent will not co-operate to provide his child with better facilities if he knows that the money he is collecting will be spent for that purpose? In this way we hope to persuade officials not only to render loyal service, but that teachers and others also to offer their services on a voluntary basis and to co-operate in creating the happy conditions which we envisage.

The hon. member for Pinelands put a question in connection with the institutions at Mamelodi and Mabopane. I shall give him the information furnished to me. In Mamelodi the in-service training buildings no longer meet the requirements and a new building at Mabopane is being planned. Various self-governing areas have their own centres because we preferred to build them in the self-governing areas first. The qualifications of teachers are not improved at those centres, but they are assisted with teaching methods. But the hon. member should have regard to the fact that we do have classes for the education of adults. These classes have increased in number to such an extent and there is so much co-operation on the part of qualified Blacks that we are absolutely delighted. At the beginning of the year I had to make a speech in which I wanted to indicate the number of centres. I was told that there were 68 centres. Three or four weeks later, when I wanted to go through the speech to check the figures, the Secretary informed me that that figure was outdated. It was the figure for three months earlier. The new figure was 114.

This illustrates what growth there has been, and this is how we can work if we could only obtain the co-operation of communities and of people in the vicinity. There may be people who will resent my saying what I am going to say now, as they possibly did when I said the same thing as Deputy Minister, but I cannot but give hon. members my honest opinion on this matter. I cannot but have appreciation for the people who work for the Teach Fund, the Argus Fund and the Learn Fund and assist us without any strings attached to provide facilities. If I may, I should therefore just like to tell Afrikaans newspapers who so often criticize and say that those people do those things “with ulterior motives”, as it is sometimes referred to. There is nothing preventing Afrikaans bodies and Afrikaans newspapers from doing the same kind of thing. We must make contact, and it is our duty to make contact with the Black people of our country and to teach them that they have to work for themselves, but that we shall assist them, that we shall make our contributions so as to enable everyone wanting to help himself, to achieve things.

I think I have now covered the whole field of today’s debate. But I want to conclude by just making a single remark about something which possibly worries me more than anything else in present conditions.

†In what I am now going to say I am not only addressing myself to Christians. I know that there are ever so many objections, at times, when we speak about Christian national education. It is so often easy to look for things to quarrel about. There is an old story about a flower. To that flower goes a bee to take from the flower that from which it can make the sweetest honey in the world. To that very same flower, however, goes a spider to take from it the very same substance to make the most lethal poison one could ever hope to get.

*So it is with everything in life. One can make honey and obtain sweetness or one can make poison of anything given to one. It depends on one’s attitude.

I want to tell our churches in all sincerity that I am concerned about one thing, and that is that the influence of our churches is beginning to diminish in the education of our Black people. I say with a feeling of deep concern that irrespective of the church involved, whether an English church, an Afrikaans church, a Protestant church or any other church, churches should use their influence to a larger extent in school commissions and in Christian education, even if only by way of the interest shown by some of our farmers in the Western Transvaal—a few of them are sitting in this House—by opening a school once a week with a reading from the Scriptures and a prayer. One need not flaunt one’s Christianity to convey the Christian message to young people who need that message, and it need not be conveyed by a clergyman either. I believe unhesitatingly that we must do this because we know that the ultimate calling of every human being still is to testify to the world that which he has received. This is the most beautiful message any person could give to other people. I hope we shall be able to do our work in that spirit and attitude.

Vote agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Agreed to.