Mr. Speaker, I move without notice—

Agreed to.

Mr. Chairman, because of the unavoidable absence of the usual spokesman, the hon. member for Orange Grove, it falls to me to address a few remarks to the hon. the Minister on this very important Vote. A great deal of money is involved in public works and therefore, even though the departments activities are normally not particularly spectacular, from a political point of view, the House should not fail to give this important Vote the attention it deserves.

The Department of Public Works is a very large and important employer in South Africa, not merely in the sense that it has a staff of its own—which it does have, but I shall be coming to that aspect later—but also in the sense that it awards a great deal of work to the construction industry which is a major industry in South Africa. The implications of the policy of the Department of Public Works for the health of the construction industry are therefore important to that industry and, through it, to the economy as a whole. In making a few remarks about this it is, I suppose, proper for me to declare that I have a certain interest in the construction industry, although it is not direct or pecuniary.

One of the most chronic and serious problems with which the construction industry in South Africa is faced is the inordinately cyclical nature of its work load. There is almost never a time when the construction industry can be described as being in a normal phase. It is almost always feast or famine. There is almost always either a boom or a recession in this industry.

In good years there is more work available than the industry can handle. As a result the tender lists become short because the construction companies have as much work as they can do, profit margins are high, there is desperate bidding for labour at all levels, because each firm has more work than it can do, and very often labour is used in capacities for which the labourers are not properly trained. As a consequence the clients, the people who employ the construction companies, suffer, both as a result of having to pay higher prices than would normally be the case and as a result of the quality of the work that they receive. This really does nobody any good, not even the construction firms, because their internal costs tend to rise to follow the high prices quoted in the tenders.

When bad times come, however, the opposite takes place: The tender lists lengthen, the profit margins narrow or disappear and general misery prevails in the industry. As a result of the squeezed profit margins and the declining financial situation in which the firms in the industry find themselves, they get rid of employees, some of them trained, and when good times come again, when the cycle turns upwards again, one finds that the firms are inadequately staffed to meet the demands of the new situation and we have a new set of problems arising. There is an interesting illustration of this cyclical effect in this year’s report of the department on page 10, where one finds the following note—

More details follow in the report. What this means is that, when times are bad, margins are squeezed to that extent. It should not be believed that when times are good, margins do not increase again to that extent In these circumstances anything at all that could be done to smooth out the cyclical fluctuations would be vastly in the interests not only of the industry, but particularly of all the clients of the industry and thus of the community in general. This will be conducive to better training, greater efficiency and more stability all round. Surely, it cannot be beyond the wit of man to devise methods whereby the Government, with its vast spending propensity, could play an anti-cyclical role in relation to the construction industry. If the Government could find it possible to step up its construction spending in bad years for the industry and to cut it back when times are good, these results would be achieved with all the benefits they can bring.

*One is obviously aware of the fact that it is a sound rule, as far as the Government’s budgets are concerned, that money appropriated to be spent in a particular year, should not be carried forward to the next year. This places certain obstacles in the path of the improvement that I am proposing here. However, it should be possible in part, at least, to remove those obstacles. As far as I am concerned, I should certainly advocate an investigation to find out whether methods could not be found according to which anti-cyclical action by the Department of Public Works would be possible. I realize, too, that many of the projects that must be undertaken, are of an urgent nature and simply cannot be delayed, but should be tackled at the earliest possible date. This cannot be the case in respect of every one of the department’s projects, however. If one could adapt the programme on a limited scale and marginally to meet the requirements of the economy, the country would benefit by it.

There is another matter which the Department of Public Works ought to take into consideration, particularly in the light of the two important reports which have become available in the past week, and that is the department’s own role as an employer. It is the main theme of the Wiehahn report, and to some extent of the Riekert report as well, that provision should be made for greater stability in the Black labour force, for its better training and for greater general efficiency. This department is not only one of the thousands of employers in South Africa, but a very major and important employer too. I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister whether there are as yet plans afoot in the department and whether it is his policy that there should be planning for the more effective training of Black labour, particularly in view of the shortage of artisans of all types which still prevails in the construction industry. As I have said before in a different context in the House, it has been a characteristic of the past few years that while industry was passing through recession conditions, there was a constant shortage of artisans in certain categories. One should like the Department of Public Works to set an example in the training and promotion of Black labour in such posts.

Before I sit down, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister a question concerning one item which appears in his Vote. I am referring to the appropriation for the purchase of and improvements to a property to serve as a residence for the South African consul-general in Teheran. I assume the budget was drawn up before the recent events in that part of the world and I should like to hear whether there has been any alteration in the plans and if not, why not.

Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to react to the aspects raised by the hon. member for Parktown. I believe the hon. the Minister would like to answer them personally.

I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the hon. the Minister since this is the first time that he is handling this Vote, and to tell him that we welcome him in this portfolio. We know he is a very hard-working and industrious person. I am sure he will throw himself heart and soul into the activities of the department in order to conduct them as successfully as they have been conducted in the past.

This is one of those departments which is not constantly in the limelight. The department is actually concerned with the creation of hard realities. We see around us every day the great structures which rise up under its care and supervision, and in those structures people must work and associate pleasantly and happily. The surroundings in which people work and spend the major part of their lives must be created by this department. That is why it is so important that the men held responsible for this creative work, must always meet the most essential requirements for allowing people to work and associate happily and pleasantly within those structures. To be able to do so, it is necessary for them to keep abreast of what is offered by modern technology. The technical staff of the department are people who are always on the ball. When we read through the departmental reports, it is clear to us that they keep themselves abreast of the latest developments and research being done by the CSIR and institutions like the Building Research Institute. They co-operate with those people so as to ensure that the latest technology is being applied. Theirs is the extremely important task of taking the lead and supervising the planning and erection of structures as well as the rendering of engineering services. As we can infer from the reports, the real creative work done by them is actually minimal.

As far as the erection of structures is concerned, the department had an amount of R130 million at its disposal during the financial year 1977-’78. Of that, R9,3 million had been ordered by departments such as the Departments of Prisons, of Police, of Defence and of Public Works, in other words 7,18% of the total amount appropriated. The expenditure of R120,8 million was effected by way of the private sector, i.e. 92,82%. It is understandable, therefore that the department should keep an extremely watchful eye on a very big capital programme to be completed annually. I believe we can say with real gratitude that during this period no-one pointed a finger at this department because of the misappropriation of funds.

In the year 1978-’79, the amount which the department had to handle was R175,9 million. If we look at the programme for this year, we notice that they have to handle a total amount of R195 million for the 1979-’80 financial year.

If one merely looks at these figures superficially, one does not always realize what an enormous amount of work is to be done behind the scenes. There is a programme to be programmed. The architect, the quantity surveyor, the engineer, the clerk, the construction worker—everybody—must be harnessed to ensure that the construction work is done. I can elaborate further by saying that it is illuminating to see in the report—which makes very good reading—the manifold activities and the responsibility of the department It is really interesting work. Last year a Select Committee was appointed which went into all these items very carefully. This year that procedure was dropped, but we hope it will be adopted again in future, because a Select Committee can investigate more thoroughly the work being done.

I want to refer to a few other matters falling under this Vote which, I think, should receive some attention. Looking at the erection of schools, one notes that a start is being made this year with the erection of no fewer than 30 primary and secondary schools for Coloureds. It so happens that 30 primary and high schools for Indians will also be erected this year. I hope hon. members will take note of this and I want to express the hope that the Opposition, which always adopts such a critical stance towards us and alleges that we do not provide the necessary facilities for these two colour groups, will show a little gratitude for this. I think we have reason to be proud of what we are doing for these colour groups. This falls specifically under the care and supervision of the Department of Public Works. Schools for Whites and Blacks fall under other departments, but schools for the Coloured and Indian groups fall specifically under this department and it is with real gratification that we take cognizance of the amount of work being done in this regard.

I want to go on to talk about a matter which is very dear to my heart, particularly in these difficult and threatening times in which we live. I am informed that certain changes will be effected on Stalplein and that a new building is to be erected in Plein Street. I want to call for something to be done about the construction of basements at these places in such a way that they could also serve as bomb shelters in the event of a bombing raid on this harbour city of ours. I believe something of the kind is essential in this area There are a large number of people working in this vicinity and we should have regard for their safety.

Wherever there are big constructions of this nature overseas where a large number of people are employed, this sort of safety precaution is taken.

I am informed that sweeping changes are to be effected on Stal Plein and I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister what it will look like. I understand that a very fine layout is envisaged.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the congratulations which the hon. member for Edenvale extended to the hon. the Minister who is now handling this portfolio. Like the hon. member, I too believe that he will make a tremendous success of it and I want to wish him everything of the best in this challenging task with which the hon. the Prime Minister has entrusted him.

For the second time within a few days it is my dubious privilege to speak directly after a colleague of mine in this House. I cannot enter into a debate with him, so I have to go back to the previous speaker on the Opposition side. It happens to be the same hon. member whom I debated with last Friday, viz. the hon. member for Parktown. I regret his not being in the House now. The hon. member for Edenvale did not enter into debate with him and for that reason I should have liked to do so. Consequently I shall just refer to a statement which he made, a statement with which I am largely in agreement, and that is that the possibility should be investigated of eliminating the cyclical nature of the work, not only of this department, but of the whole building industry as well. I, too, should also very much like to see an effort being made to eliminate the cyclical nature of the work of this department, but for this to be possible it will clearly be necessary for this department to co-operate very closely with the Department of Finance, because it is in times of recession, just when there is no money to activate building projects, that the building industry has to be stimulated. That is the reason why I say that it will have to be done in much closer cooperation with the Department of Finance. It will mean that in times of prosperity considerable sums of money will have to be set aside for utilization in times of recession. I am glad to see the hon. member for Parktown is back in the House now, because I now can say something which I should not have liked to say in his absence. As I have just indicated, he said that this department had to stimulate the building industry in times of recession to create more job opportunities and to effect a more even workflow to the building industry. However, when the State pumps more money into the economy by means of its departments, it is those very hon. members on that side of the House that often accuse us of drawing too much money from the private sector for utilization in the public sector.

Less in boom times.

Not relatively speaking.

I want to thank the hon. the Minister and the Secretary of his department for a very interesting report for 1977-’78. It is very clear from the report, as the hon. the Minister of Finance said in his budget speech, that the Government is in earnest as regards making more use of the private sector. The hon. the Minister of Finance said in his budget speech this year that one of the aims of our policy is to encourage expansion in the private sector. If one looks at this report, one sees on virtually every page that the Government is in earnest as regards making more use of the private sector. As the hon. member for Edenvale indicated, large-scale building projects were undertaken in the Republic last year at a total cost of R120 million, of which 92% was allocated to the private sector and only a little less than 8% undertaken by the department itself.

I want to express my great satisfaction at this state of affairs because, as the hon. the Minister of Finance indicated, we should like to stimulate the private sector to a much greater extent Paging through the report, one notices a growing trend to assign not only more works, but more services, as well, to the private sector. If we look at the work done by architects, for example, we see that the department allocated only 21% of its architectural services to the private sector in 1973-’74. This rose to 70% in the 1976-’77 financial year. In that way more and more of the architectural services are being allocated to the private sector. If we consider civil engineering services, we notice that 90% is consistently being allocated to the private sector. So we can continue with the various services which this department performs. We see how it is allowing more and more of these services to be rendered by the private sector. In the case of electrical services, 51% of the value of these services was done by the private sector; i.e. by consulting engineers, in the 1973-’74 financial year, while in 1977-’78 68% of these services was already being performed by consulting engineers. Similarly one can page through the whole report and see that the Government is consistent in its policy and seeks to stimulate the private sector. For that reason the arguments of the Opposition that the Government is keeping too much money in the public sector and channels too little to the private sector, fall away altogether.

Then, too, I want to take the opportunity of thanking the hon. the Minister for a fine new magistrate’s office which is being erected in my constituency, Paarl. It is with some sadness and nostalgia that one takes leave of the old building, particularly if one has assisted in the counting of votes no fewer than seven times in that building. But there was never any tension, because I knew that I was going to win with a large majority. And that is indeed what happened. The majority increased from 1 088 in 1954 to far in excess of 6 000 in the last election which I fought there. We certainly do not want to see the old building demolished, because its architectural style is really exceptional. I am now informed that it is to be retained for use by other Government departments and I want to make an earnest plea for its retention so that the old building will not need to be demolished. I understand that there are two other buildings in the same architectural style in the country, in Barberton and in Mafeking. Therefore we should very much like to retain it and I hope the hon. the Minister will take cognizance of this.

Mr. Chairman, I want to assure the hon. member for Paarl that we share his appreciation of the fact that the Department of Public Works has channelled so much money to the private sector. When one thinks of the Department of Public Works, one always thinks with great pride and appreciation of its activities, because it is this department that, by means of its staff and to a large extent the private sector, too, is the real planner and architect of all our fine, large and elegant State buildings in South Africa Because this is the case, they are in actual fact the creators of the mirror-image of development in South Africa as the years go by. On this occasion I should like to submit a few ideas on the possible centralization of our Government buildings in our cities and towns for the attention of the hon. the Minister. Before I turn to that, I first want to make it very clear that it is the case throughout the civilized world that the State, commerce and industry have utilized decentralization from time to time to create new life, new growth points in the areas where this is lacking. With regard to geographic areas, for example, a city or town, it is in fact essential that the activities of our Government departments be centralized. One could argue that not only Government departments and all their activities can be centralized. Examples are schools, hospitals and prisons. Institutions such as these, by their nature, must fulfil their tasks individually. It could be asked what advantages could derive from the centralization of Government institutions and buildings. I shall mention a few examples of advantages. Security measures can be effected much more meaningfully and suitably in the case of a large complex on one terrain.

The same applies to the supervision and maintenance of such a terrain and building complex. It is also easier to plan such a complex and provide for sufficient parking space. The real advantage lies in the fact that a member of the public can meet his obligations to the State at one central point He could, for example, pay his licence fees and his taxes there, and if he had to execute some legal transaction in terms of the laws of the country, he would do so there. I wish to refer to Port Elizabeth where the enormous, beautiful and modern Eben Dӧnges Building is a very fine example of the centralization of Government buildings. There all the Government departments are housed together, with a few exceptions. Even at this late stage, I want to tell the Department of Public Works that we greatly appreciate this major asset they have built for Port Elizabeth. The ideal as regards the centralization of Government buildings must be to centralize those Government institutions in a town or city which naturally lend themselves to centralization. If we do this and set the perfectly normal requirements in regard to such a complex, for example that it should be spacious so that there is sufficient space for expansion, beautification and the laying out of gardens and lawns and so that there is adequate parking space, all the Government activities in that particular town or city could be established on that specific terrain in the years ahead and for generations to come. I think the planners of the elegant old Union Building perhaps had these things in mind, but simply did not consider the possibility that this country of ours had a dynamic vitality. Consequently the Union Buildings have become too small. Therefore the aforegoing would apply in general to the great ideal set for our Government complexes in our cities and towns. Having said this, I must admit that this can really only be done where we begin with new designs. In most cities and towns Government buildings or portions of them have already been constructed there. For that reason I should like to put a few alternatives to the hon. the Minister. Where we are planning a large new Government building in a town or city, we must draw together all Government institutions functioning in that area in the same complex. Of course this must be subject to the condition that it will be done on a fine, beautiful and large terrain. If this cannot happen, we can at least try to house related State departments in such a complex. For example, the Supreme Court, the Magistrate’s Court, the Deeds Office, the Master’s Office, the offices of the Attorney-General and the Government Attorney, which are related institutions, could function smoothly if they were housed in one large elegant complex. I also have in mind related agricultural matters which could easily be housed in one complex. But if this is no longer entirely possible, we could in any case try to draw those Government institutions, housed all over the place in a town or city in buildings which are neither very good nor modern, into one modern and central complex. Principally, however, the ideal must remain that optimum use must be made of those expensive Government buildings. I want to express the hope that the hon. the Minister will consider this idea at an appropriate time.

I should also just like to refer briefly to a more local matter. It is a matter which directly affects my part of the world, the Eastern Cape. It has already been referred to in broad outline today. As a result of the world recession, which has, of course, affected our country too, and consequently the Eastern Cape as well, our building industry has had to suffer too. But we note with much gratitude, however, that no less than R42 million has been appropriated for the purpose of building Government buildings during the financial year 1979-’80. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that we appreciate this most sincerely. It is also very interesting to note the way in which the sum has been divided. It starts with additional accommodation for the SAP and new police stations and includes the beautification and modernization of prisons. It also covers institutions for White technical education, schools for Coloureds, hospitals, other public offices, while a considerable amount has also been set aside for modern telecommunications equipment.

It is also being planned to utilize a further R41 million for Government buildings in the Eastern Cape within the next three or four years. I want to avail myself of this opportunity of thanking the hon. the Minister and his department most sincerely for this large allocation. We are sure that this total amount of approximately R83 million will be a powerful stimulant to the building industry in the Eastern Cape.

Mr. Chairman, the three hon. members who spoke before me, all thanked the hon. the Minister. I hope you will not mind if I do not do the same. I am in a good mood today and consequently I am not going to fight with the hon. the Minister. I just want to tell him that he is really one of the most fortunate Ministers in this House. He inherited a proud department He is at the head of a good department, and the men who work in it, are doing their work well. [Interjections.]

I should like to exchange a few ideas with the hon. the Minister. I tried to write a speech. I wondered what on earth I was going to say. Then I asked myself what I would do if I were in the shoes of the hon. the Minister; if I were in his position.

You would make an absolute mess of it [Interjections.]

Yes, that may be so, but in his department one can only progress. [Interjections.] I would immediately have made a survey of what I had at my disposal. I would have made a complete survey of my assets and of…

But surely that has been done.

Okay. The hon. the Deputy Minister says that it has been done. But I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister what the value of the department’s assets are.

Aha, now you have him. [Interjections.]

It is really a great deal.

How much is “a great deal”? The hon. member for Edenvale has a great deal to say. Can he tell me what the value of the department’s assets are?

Many millions.

Many millions? [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, if I were at the head of so large an undertaking as this one of which the hon. the Minister is the head, I would really try to determine how many assets I had at my disposal. I did make a calculation. I did it in consultation with people in the department I shall tell hon. members how many assets the department possesses. The value of the assets amounts to more than R3 000 million. This takes no account of the historic value of, for example, this Parliament building or the Union buildings. We in this country possess buildings and properties of tremendous value. But we also have a further asset the asset of our labour force. A survey of that should be carried out as well.

The department’s labour force is so vitally important because it is in control of a vast undertaking, an undertaking which possesses properties to the value of more than R3 000 million, properties it has to control and maintain, as well as solve problems relating to them. I would ask whether the senior staff includes a sufficient number of trained and capable professional staff.

While I was busy with all these things, I again paged through the department’s annual report. In the foreword to the report I read, inter alia, the following—

We are all in agreement with that. It is a meaningful objective. The report continues—

It goes on to state—

Here I begin to read between the lines. Later on it is stated that there is a shortage of this category of staff. I quote—

It also goes on to state—

If I read between the lines here, it is very clear to me—and I hope it is also very clear to the hon. the Minister—that we are struggling to obtain a trained labour force. What are we doing about this? I hope the hon. the Minister has taken cognizance of this. This is a conclusion one reaches when reading this report. It is very clear from the report that capable and trained people are not being adequately remunerated. Even while we have a surplus of top workers in the building industry at the moment, we are struggling to obtain men of the same calibre in the department. This means one thing. If we are now entering a boom period, as the hon. the Minister predicted, this department is going to experience problems. I am warning the hon. the Minister now that major problems are awaiting him. He can still cope now, but in future he is really going to struggle.

In order to solve this tremendous problem, he has two options only. In the first place he has to try to persuade the Public Service Commission to create special technical posts, special posts with special salary scales. But I do not know whether he will succeed there. Another alternative is, of course, to appoint special consultants. Of course this will be more expensive, and consequently I propose that the first alternative be chosen, in other words, that better remuneration be given to top men in the department for the work they are doing. The third alternative is, of course, to do nothing, but this will cost even more money. Therefore, if he continues with the present manpower shortage and does nothing about it, the department is going to suffer heavily.

I want to mention an example. There has been talk of a building which is to be constructed at a cost of R10 million. Let us say the figure is R10 million. An architect is appointed and he designs the building. On a sum of approximately R10 million I just want to say that a competent man can effect a saving of R1 million within 24 hours. I know because I have done it myself. I was in the same position in the building industry. One can examine an architect’s plans very carefully in the space of 24 hours and eliminate 10% of the cost of the work, and this can be done by merely drawing red crosses. But one must be a competent person to be able to do this. Such a person must, of course, have an architectural and aesthetic background. This is logical because one cannot allow him to eliminate the fine and sound characteristics of the project. Consequently he must have a feeling for the buildings he designs. He must also be aware of the cost of the labour and the material to be used for the building. This is such an important point because within a period of only 24 hours such a competent person can save the department such an enormous sum of money. This is the type of manpower which the hon. the Minister must please persuade to join the department.

Two days ago we discussed the activities of the Department of Community Development. That department has the manpower, but they do not have the necessary funds, while this department has the funds, but not the manpower. Consequently I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that a survey be carried out of the department’s assets, that he should then examine that survey carefully to determine details such as the description, situation, use and value of buildings, as well as determining whether the project already completed for the Government is saleable or not I am saying this because this department has at least R3 000 million in property or assets, and can certainly sell a portion of that There is no reason why the Government, after having sold the buildings, cannot lease them again from the private sector. I am convinced that assets amounting to probably R500 million could be converted into money. Of course one cannot go and sell the Union Building, nor is this what I am proposing. I am speaking of ordinary buildings such as office buildings, etc.

Howick station.

Yes, Howick station could easily be sold. An office building could be sold and then leased on a long term basis. With the funds obtained in this way, the department could then undertake further work. The department is continually struggling with money, but it could easily obtain R500 million from the private sector. Then the department could continue with building projects and at the same time stimulate the building industry. Schools, houses, etc., could be built. The hon. the Minister of Community Development is crying out for funds to build more houses and schools.

Is this the official standpoint of your party?

I am merely making a logical suggestion. The hon. member’s question is ridiculous. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in consequence of the hon. the Prime Minister’s announcement that he is going to examine the overlapping among Government departments and the better utilization of manpower in South Africa, I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister of Public Works, in the 10 minutes at my disposal, to suggest to the Cabinet that those terms of reference be extended to highlight certain other aspects as well. In the first place I want to plead for better utilization of plots situated within municipal areas which belong to the State and provincial administrations. In the second place, I want to ask for the Department of Public Works to have more jurisdiction over the allocation and use of such plots. In the third place, I want to ask that a survey be done of all unused plots belonging to the State and provincial authorities with a view to getting rid of them, restoring the properties on them or utilizing them more effectively.

I am not doing this because I think that there is overlapping; I think there is not enough liaison between the State, the provincial administrations and the town councils. It is the town councils that are saddled with these enormous problems. To be able to approach the matter scientifically, it will be necessary for the department to approach local authorities to make a survey of empty plots and unused buildings which have an inhibiting influence on the development programmes of such local authorities.

At present the purchasing of State plots falls under the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure, and every State department or provincial administration concerned has purchased such plots in every city, town or suburb where they deemed it necessary, with the aim of developing them at some stage when required. However, the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure is only the agent in such a transaction and does not exert pressure to have that land developed.

This has resulted in hundreds of plots like these in urban areas being unused for decades to the detriment of local authorities that lack the powers to compel the State department, for example by way of rates and taxes, to develop them. The present system reminds me strongly of the Biblical story of the lord who gave talents to his three servants. We all know that two of them used their talents very well while the third servant unfortunately buried his talent so that it could not even earn interest. This, of course, was to the detriment of the lord himself.

Many of the plots entrusted to certain State departments and provincial administrations, because they are not developed, became purely an expense and a burden for the local authorities in whose areas they are situated. Therefore I want to ask that the State departments concerned conduct an investigation to determine whether we are not perhaps losing millions of rands because State institutions and provincial administrations do not realize the financial implications of their stubborn holding on to plots on which they do not build. The reply State departments give to representations that such plots should be developed, very often concludes with the following sentence—

Town councils have become so used to this type of answer that they accept it as their lot and only try to keep such plots as clean and neat as possible. If one were to conduct a survey of what it costs the town councils in the Republic annually to maintain these plots, one would be amazed at the amount spent on such unused plots.

The most frustrating aspect of these properties lies in the fact that they are purchased for the benefit of the inhabitants of a district, but because the town council supplies the services and carries out the maintenance work, it only means that those who own property in the municipal area concerned pay for the maintenance and services rendered to such State plots. The other inhabitants of the country do not contribute to this. Whether the plot is used for a school, a post office, a telephone exchange, a police station or whatever, everyone certainly benefits from it. Even the farmer in the district, the Black man in the hostel or the flat occupant benefit from it. Therefore it is extremely unfair to expect that only the ratepayers of the town should pay for the services and the maintenance of such properties.

Another aspect of the matter is that such unused plots have a detrimental effect on the properties surrounding them. I would go so far as to say that they encourage slum conditions and lower the market value of the properties in the surrounding area. Often they even pose a fire risk; another burden that has to be borne alone by the owners of the surrounding area in the township, but to the benefit of the whole population to whom it belongs. At the moment we do not realize the extent of the problem. When one drives through a town, one does not know how many of the empty plots one sees belong to the State or the province. I should therefore like to indicate, on the basis of a survey I conducted in Boksburg, how serious is the condition in one of the towns in our country. At present there are 144 unutilized State plots in Boksburg, of which 66 belong to the State and 78 to the province. Now hon. members must listen carefully. Twenty-nine of these plots are situated in Boksburg Central, a suburb established in the year 1889, that is, 90 years ago. In all those years not two bricks have been laid one on the other on these plots. Five of these plots are situated in the central business district. Since the days of Paul Kruger they are still the only unutilized plots in Commissioner Street, the main street of the business centre of Boksburg. Moreover, they are situated only four blocks away from the centre of the business area, the city hall. On most of the plots belonging to the private sector in this specific area, buildings have twice been demolished and new ones built in their places. There was even talk of the city hall being demolished to make way for the new civic centre. This proves that the private sector and the local authority made the best of their talents in that specific suburb. However, the State’s plots are unfortunately unutilized.

Let me give a second example. Boksburg North was proclaimed in 1910. In this suburb there are 13 State plots which have been unutilized for 68 years. One of these plots is situated in the centre of the business area opposite a plot with a valuation of R50 000. That plot belongs to the Post Office. After 68 years the Post Office is still not prepared to develop it It is also difficult to say whether the Post Office will be able to develop it during the next 10 years, because there are 12 other plots as well in Boksburg belonging to the Post Office.

In the suburb Comet adjoining Rietfontein Road, a road the city council recently rebuilt at a cost of R500 000, there are three plots that have been unutilized since 1937. They are also the only unutilized plots in that township. I want to assure the House that the city council of Boksburg is struggling to avoid slum conditions on and in the vicinity of such plots. Half of the 144 plots to which I referred were proclaimed more than 40 years ago. In many cases the original services such as the provision of electrical power, the building of roads, sewerage and stormwater facilities have been replaced for the second time. In other words, the original services provided by the City Council also lay unutilized and deteriorating without being used by the State or the province.

I asked the town clerk to make an estimate of what it would cost to supply services to a township consisting of 144 plots and to maintain it. I also asked what the State is at present paying the Boksburg city council to maintain those specific 144 plots. The figure is amazing. Supplying services to a suburb of 144 plots of average size—and the services include the building of roads, the supply of water and power, as well as sewerage and stormwater facilities—will cost the city council R530 000. The maintenance of such services costs R129 000 annually. Last year Boksburg only received R1 700 to maintain State plots in that area.

If the local authority could claim the complete maintenance and development cost from the State and the province, those plots could have been developed years ago. Now there are people sitting in an office 50 km from those plots—unfortunately this is true—satisfied that they have invested money in land in Boksburg. Because those departments do not pay for the services provided for their properties, it is not shown in the House of Assembly on their financial statements as expenditure. [Time expired.]

Traditionally, Mr. Chairman, this is a nonpolitical debate and it is not my intention to break this tradition or to disturb the tranquil course this Committee has taken.

Since we are handing out bouquets, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to thank the hon. the Minister and the department for the recent film show as well as the function arranged at their initiative to make known the activities of the department. It was a particularly successful function and personally I am of the opinion that it was a very original idea which may be repeated to good effect in future.

This department is a very important one, as the hon. member for Parktown said. Moreover, the department fulfils a very important function in the whole constellation of the national economy. When one consults the annual report, one sees that 381 major works to the value of approximately R530 million are in the planning stage at present It is on this very matter that I want to exchange a few ideas with the hon. the Minister.

I ask myself whether it is not necessary at this juncture to make a re-evaluation, firstly, in view of the changed economic circumstances, and, secondly, in view of the envisaged rationalization of the entire Government machine, of the department’s policy with regard to the provision of conventional office space for the State. Before developing my argument any further, I wish to make it quite clear that I exclude from my argument the provision of military bases and sensitive installations for the purposes and use of the State.

In speaking of changed economic circumstances, I want to centralize one concept, for this constitutes the entire basis of my argument. This concept is that at present we are living in changed economic circumstances in which capital has become a rare commodity. There is one general economic principle which is applicable to the State as well as the private sector, and that is that capital must yield a return. In the private sector the return is measured in terms of dividends or interest. The investment made by the State cannot always be measured only in terms of hard cash.

I want to argue, however, that it is possible to make out a case for the argument that the erection and financing of Government buildings can be done just as well by the private sector. It is a generally known fact that the department is concerned with a wide variety of buildings which is functional for the State, and if I wanted to apply my argument in a concrete way, it would be possible for me to argue that court buildings, post offices, hospitals, clinics, welfare accommodation, research institutes and building complexes could be financed and built just as well by the private sector on the basis of the State subsequently taking over those buildings on the basis of a long-term lease.

I am not advocating a new principle in this regard. The department has already accepted this idea in principle. In this connection I refer to page 15 of the annual report where the following is said—

What I am advocating is the extension of this basic principle of the hiring of accommodation for Government buildings.

I want to link this central idea to a specific example with which most hon. members are familiar and to which the hon. member for Edenvale referred. It is the Plein Street building. It is an eight-storey building with an original cost estimate of approximately R27 million, which was reduced to R15 million, including the escalation costs. The complex will house shops on the street and below street levels. The Government Printing Works, the Department of Inland Revenue and other Government departments with insufficient accommodation will also be housed in this building. Tenders will be received until October 1979 and the contract time is three years.

In the light of my general argument and to stimulate our thinking, we may ask ourselves here in this Committee what the considerations were when it was decided to have the Plein Street complex erected by the Department of Public Works. One could ask oneself what guarantee there was that the private sector, given the same specifications, would not have been able to erect the building more cheaply.

There is another matter which was included in the planning of the building, and that is the provision of shop space on street level. I ask myself whether it is the function of the State to make provision in its Government buildings for shop space. Shop space is made available on the normal basis of supply and demand. This is a very popular type of investment The private sector specializes in this type of investment. Unless there are considerations of which I am not aware, I want to ask whether it is advisable for the State to make shop space available in this sensitive area. My concern is not whether there is over-accommodation or under-accommodation of shop space in which business is carried on, but basically the question as to whether it is the duty of the State to make provision for shop space in its buildings.

Now I want to raise a matter which may be even more delicate. It concerns the taxation on Government property in municipal areas. I am honestly of the opinion that the principle of a lesser authority not being able to tax a higher authority, is an outdated one. I ask the hon. the Minister to use his influence with the hon. the Minister of Finance, when the Browne Commission brings out its report, to put an end to this practice. I am advocating the taxation of Government properties in municipal areas, because they make use of the same services.

Should they be fully taxed?

Yes, fully. I also ask for the abolition of the present subsidy. They make use of the same services and they burden the infrastructure to the same extent If my plea is accepted, it will have the effect of alleviating to some extent this bottleneck which has arisen as well as the burden on the house-owner. As I said in a previous debate, property rates should be concentrated not only on property-owners, but also on the occupiers of properties.

Mr.Chairman, in general terms, I fully agree with the hon. member for Bellville and I think, particularly as far as Pretoria is concerned, that there is a very strong feeling among the public and a reasonably strong feeling among us as representatives that the Government will continue to look at the possibility of making a bigger direct tax contribution in respect of the buildings it has there. [Interjections.] Yes, Pretoria pays heavily for the privilege of being the capital city, and it is a proud privilege for Pretoria to be able to be the capital city. May I say just a few words on behalf of what I regard as the most beautiful city in the whole of South Africa? When one drives from Jan Smuts airport to the Fountains circle and overlooks the beautiful city of Pretoria, not only does one’s heart beat faster because one is an inhabitant of Pretoria and a representative for Pretoria, but I believe that the hearts of all the hon. members in this House beat faster when they view the fine administrative capital of South Africa.

I should like to say a few words about the appearance of the Government buildings. If I say that the appearance of a large number of the Government buildings in Pretoria is decrepit and outdated and does not fit into a modern developing urban and work atmosphere, I do not say it to be negative; I say it just to be positive, not only in the interests of Pretoria, but also in the interests of every other city and town in South Africa where there are Government buildings. I also say it in the interests of our Public Service. I believe that the image of any organization is bound up with not only the effectiveness, the productivity, the good organization and performance of the workers, but also on the image of the place in which they work. All of us who visit Government buildings in Pretoria from time to time, will agree, I believe, that the appearance of most Government buildings in Pretoria leaves much to be desired. The mouldy appearance of many Government buildings, some of them on the outside—and I am specifically speaking about the older buildings—and most of them on the inside, does not do our Public Service credit Because this is a matter with major financial implications, I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether his department would specifically look at the interior modernization of Government offices with a view to long-term planning. If one sees how the interiors of old buildings in the Cape are afforded character and atmosphere in a certain sense, I believe that we can do a great deal in this respect in a place such as Pretoria. Therefore I want to make an earnest appeal to the hon. the Minister.

I want to repeat that many of those old buildings are no credit to the Public Service. If one drives down Paul Kruger Street in Pretoria and one looks at the buildings of the Department of Plural Relations and the Paul Court Building—one could mention one Government building after the other—one wonders whether the time has not come for us to look at these matters in a little more depth. I believe that with a little more imagination and initiative, and without spending very much money, we could provide a very major asset for Pretoria and the public servants.

There are approximately 16 283 Public Servants in Pretoria as well as approximately 2 221 people who are employed by the provincial administration. In the second place, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister, who is renowned for the fact that he puts a high premium on fitness and health, whether his department could not also make it policy that gymnasium facilities and shower facilities be installed in every single large Government building during their planning and their erection, and also when the Government buildings are restored. I am convinced that if we want to attract more and more young people to the Public Service, we should also improve the image and the atmosphere in the Government buildings in which they work, to such an extent that those people will like to work there and be proud to work there. I believe that there is a tremendous need for that.

If I look at the long hours Public Servants work and if I see how dedicated these people are, and how much tension and strain is involved in their work situation, I honestly believe that we can render a service to the concept of health and fitness as well as the concept of productivity in our Government machinery if we would only give some thought to creating facilities for our people. Perhaps we can encourage a few of those 16 000 Public Servants in Pretoria to ride to work by bicycle if there are convenient shower facilities at the office. Who wants to ride to work by bicycle if he arrives at work and it is unpleasant to work?

Mr. Chairman, I believe that there is at any rate, a need, not only in respect of our Government buildings, but in respect of every single building erected in this country, for us to make provision for those people who would like to get a little exercise in a gymnasium, who would like to sit down and relax in a sauna bath and who would perhaps like to relax a little in a special recreation room. This could definitely serve a good purpose.

If we see at how many of these Government offices there are social clubs and recreation clubs and how some of the officials often have to put their little table tennis table in the passages to play a little table tennis during lunch hours, I think that a real need exists in this regard. The little money it would cost the Government to put aside a small part of that office space for this purpose, would not only be recovered in terms of productivity and enthusiasm on the part of fit officials but it would also cause thousands of young officials in Pretoria to feel that they have a government which endeavours to make working conditions pleasant and agreeable for them when they plan their offices.

Mr. Chairman, when I look at the hon. the Minister of Education and Training, I also believe that there are quite a few of our Ministers who could make good use during this Health Year of such for recreation and exercise facilities in the office. [Interjections.] I should like to conclude at this point and tell the hon. the Minister that as far as restoration of our Government buildings and the provision of facilities are concerned, when we look at the 107 Government offices in Pretoria and at the 122 buildings leased by various government departments, we could strike a telling blow for the image of the Public Service and for the convenience and enthusiasm and fitness of the Government official if the Department of Public Works, under the leadership of this Minister, could take a positive look at these two matters.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. members for their exceptional interest in this department. I must say that we are very near to the day when the Opposition will endorse the activities of the Department of Public Works from the beginning. I must say that I am a little disappointed—although I am very grateful for the wonderful testimonial which the department received from the Opposition—that we are not having greater Opposition participation in this discussion…

There is no time.

… precisely because it is such an exceptional department. Mr. Chairman, you will allow me to discuss the department a little more fully, perhaps, than I would otherwise have done, because I have appreciation for the participation of hon. members and also because I want to reply to all hon. members. There are certain interests outside this House as well that would like to hear what I have to say about certain aspects.

It is a special privilege for me to deal with the Vote of this department for the first time today. During the past few months I have had an opportunity to visit every region in South Africa in which this department is active, to meet the staff and also to look at many examples of the activities of the department. I can assure, Mr. Chairman, that it is one of the most interesting departments to be associated with. It is clear, as one travels throughout the country, that there appears to have been a time in the activities of this department, as in the rest of the economy in South Africa, when money was in relatively abundant supply. That time is past. But I shall return to this aspect later. I just want to demonstrate to hon. members the exceptional scope of this department. In this connection I also came to realize what a great task this department has to perform and I should like to convey my gratitude to the Secretary and to all the officials who made it possible for me during the past few months to find my feet as Minister. It is a department with an exceptionally large establishment of 10 449, which includes a large contingent of labourers. It is a department which, in addition to the provision of Government accommodation—which varies from office buildings, laboratories, schools, universities, hospitals, prisons, police buildings, law courts, factories and warehouses to incidental services such as roads, waterworks, sewerage works, bridges and airfields with runways—is also responsible for the landscaping and maintenance of the grounds of Government buildings in many different places in South Africa.

The service we render is not confined to South Africa either. Services are rendered throughout the world where South Africa has representation, for we are responsible for the provision of accommodation for all the South African missions. Moreover, we are also responsible for the provision of accommodation on those island bases in the Antarctica which are under South African control.

Through the Department of Foreign Affairs we also render financial and other assistance to independent States for the construction of buildings and the establishment of infrastructures. Our assistance varies from scrutinizing designs and documentation and evaluating tenders to administrating contracts and supervising construction work. Consequently we operate over a very wide field.

I shall also refer here to our involvement, together with the Department of Community Development for example, in military bases and institutions where this department even acts as local authority as regards the provision of roads, water, electricity and sewerage.

In recent years, between 1976 and the present year, this department’s budget has grown from approximately R211 million to the total budget of approximately R373 million for 1979-’80. In this department there are people, from the most humble labourer sweeping a sidewalk to the most highly qualified professional officials, and work from the most humble repair work on a water faucet, to the most sophisticated modern techniques that can be applied. This is the Department of Public Works, whose activities we are debating here this afternoon.

I am also proud to be able to say that it is a department which definitely does not let the grass grow under its feet. I could mention a recent fine example that had to do with the terrorist attack the other evening on the Moroka police station in Johannesburg. This police station was seriously damaged by fire during the night of 3 May. A timber and corrugated iron building was razed. On Friday 4 May arrangements were made for new accommodation, and only on that day was the electricity supply reconnected. On 7 May a temporary complex at another building was hoisted and loaded in one piece by means of mechanical equipment and off-loaded at the Moroka police station. On 8 May it was put in order and on 9 May the police were able to move into their new accommodation and continue their activities without any inconvenience or disruption. This is the Department of Public Works, and I am proud to have been able to mention this example.

I should also like to associate myself with the standpoint on policy adopted by my predecessor and I should like to confirm it today because I think it is very necessary. In this connection I want to refer to a remark I made a moment ago, viz. that I got the impression during the past few months that there was a time when money appeared to have been in abundant supply in South Africa. As far as the Department of Public Works and I are concerned, however, that time is past and will not return as far as the construction works of the State are concerned. In future there will be durable structures, but no unnecessary luxuries. In 1977 my predecessor emphasized in this House that, although it was not the intention to erect inferior buildings, the planning of future State buildings would be limited to the essential and functional, with cost-consciousness as a guideline, that private architects and engineers would have to confine themselves strictly to this concept and that no deviation from it would be tolerated. I associate myself with this, and I should like to announce that my department has already taken steps to implement this standpoint. Firstly, plans for schools, hostels, halls, telephone exchanges, mortuaries, prisons and cell blocks at police stations have already been standardized, so that existing plans for buildings of this type need only be adapted to the sites in question.

The standard plans are constantly being revised to keep pace with changing circumstances. At present the department is in fact engaged in a study to ascertain to what extent the standard plans for Indian schools may be improved so as to reduce construction costs. Secondly, area norms are already being determined in regard to office buildings, hospitals and psychiatric institutions, and a study is at present being undertaken to determine norms for nurses’ homes. Thirdly, an intensive study is at present being undertaken to revise the design of office furniture in order to determine whether furniture of a smaller and more effective type could contribute to a saving of floor space in office buildings.

In regard to that type of building for which standard plans do not exist, the procedure which I shall now sketch is being adopted to ensure sound building practices at the most economic cost. Private consultants who are appointed to plan services are specially summoned to Pretoria where the commission is explained in detail, with special emphasis on sound building practices, cost-consciousness and energy saving. Sketch plans are examined by a pilot committee consisting of the Deputy Director of Architectural Services as chairman, and seven departmental architects as members. After the sketch plans have been approved by the pilot committee they are submitted to the sketch plan committee, under the chairmanship of the Director of Architectural Services, and consisting of departmental architects, engineers and quantity surveyors, as well as the private consultants and officers of the user department for consideration. When working drawing estimates—final cost estimates—are examined by departmental quantity surveyors, cognizance is first taken of the cost structure of the project, particularly in view of finish and any other facet conducive to unnecessarily expensive construction. Cases in which cost limits and norms are exceeded are referred back to the Director of Architectural Services for the consideration of alternative constructions and finishes.

I can assure hon. members that the department’s top managerial team is earnestly engaged in ensuring that our policy in regard to construction works is scrupulously implemented, and I thank them for doing so.

I now want to refer to another very important matter, one which was raised by the hon. member for Parktown. One or two of the other hon. members also referred to it. It is the important contribution which the Department of Public Works makes to the private sector in general, with more specific reference, perhaps, to the levelling off in the building industry of employment opportunities and the recessionary periods to which hon. members referred.

Owing to the levelling off of activities in the building industry during the past few years, repeated representations are being made to me and to other parts of the public sector for the creation of more employment opportunities so as to make the building industry, together with its professional and other facets, more viable. It is true that since 1976 there has been a tremendous levelling off in building activities. This has led to staff cuts having to be made. Some of the old existing practices had to effect considerable staff cuts. Some of the smaller practices even had to close down, while some professional people in South Africa even went abroad in search of a livelihood. In this connection attention was given on various levels to these specific trends, and I can assure hon. members that the Building Industry Advisory Council, under the chairmanship of the Secretary for Public Works, gave very thorough consideration to this position and tried to find ways and means of bringing alleviation to the building industry. However, it is also true that the budgeting system of the State should be viewed in its overall context and that the interests of each sector of the economy should always be weighed up against those of the national economy.

That is why it is not possible for the State to maintain a full rate of production in the entire building industry. There are bottlenecks in most industries, and the authorities must guard against steps which are aimed at expressly benefiting the one industry for example the building industry, at the expense of another, without taking the overall economic position into consideration. In addition it is also true that it is not possible for one department alone, for example Public Works—although this is the largest department—to give any appreciable stimulus to the building industry if the cost of the construction work it is promoting is gauged in proportion to file total expenditure in the industry. Statistics indicate that the total investment in non-residential buildings during 1978 amounted to approximately R1 416 million, with an estimated investment of R1 501 million during 1979. Public spending on residential buildings amounted to R720 million in 1978, with an expected R830 million in 1979. With an estimated spending of R235 million, including projects in the budget of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications and the Department of Defence in 1979, the Department of Public Works will therefore be responsible for 28% of total Government spending on non-residential buildings, or approximately 15,5% of the total investment in this type of building. However, the spending of the Department of Public Works is only approximately 7,1% of the total expected investment, i.e. R2 880 million in the building industry as a whole, i.e. for all buildings.

As may be seen in the White Paper on the department’s building programme, an amount of R195 million is being budgeted for the 1979-’80 financial year for major building services, as against R172 million during the previous financial year. Bearing in mind the building services which are being provided against the appropriation of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications, and the Department of Defence, the Department of Public Works will make a cash investment of approximately R235 million in the building industry this year. This is a considerable amount. Furthermore, the Treasury has already laid down guidelines for the next three years, with the prospect that that trend will be maintained over the next five years, and the department’s planning to meet these obligations in the Republic and South West Africa present the following picture for the next five years. Firstly there are 560 services to the value of approximately R639 million that are at present being planned. Additionally there are 715 services to the value of approximately R909 million, the planning of which has already commenced. This gives a total of 1 275 services to the value of approximately R1 568 million. This is the department’s planning over the short, medium and long term.

† Another question that is often asked is how the programme of public works affects the private sector. The department has no building organization to undertake the erection of major capital services. The activities of its building teams are restricted to minor services only and to services which cannot, as a result of security considerations, be entrusted to private contractors. Approximately 6% of the total building programme is executed by the public sector and is mainly undertaken by, firstly, the Department of Prisons as part of its rehabilitation scheme or as a consequence of security considerations; secondly, the artisan staff of the Department of Police on a very limited scale and only in remote areas where realistic tenders can be expected; and, thirdly, on experimental farms by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services where building activities are restricted to the erection of simple farm buildings such as pigsties, stables, cowsheds, etc. This means that approximately 94% of the total spending on major capital works is executed by the private sector on a competitive tendering basis.

During the financial year 1 April 1978 to 31 March 1979 813 tenders to the value of R216 828 000 were accepted. In respect of consultants and planning, my department’s building programme includes a fair element of industrialized type buildings, and although architects and engineers are not directly commissioned for file planning of such projects, each service nevertheless requires planning, and contractors specializing in this type of building method must therefore obtain professional services. This in turn is of indirect benefit to the professions.

My department’s professional staff, in so far as architects and engineers are concerned, have the same status and ability as private consultants. It is therefore imperative that these officials be allowed to undertake a certain portion of creative work—that is, after all why they are in these professions—in order to obviate frustration which will definitely set in if they are to be employed only as briefing units or to monitor and check the work of private architects.

I wish to mention the further fact that the Public Service Commission annually allots graduates to my department for the necessary training required for the purposes of registration. My department therefore has an obligation, for example to an architect-in-training to develop him, within two years, to a level which will enable him to qualify for registration as a professional architect Such training can, however, only be accomplished by the undertaking of creative design work. It is therefore imperative that my department should retain a certain percentage of design work on new projects.

In respect of architects I wish to mention that 543 architect practices, either solely or in consortium with others, are at present doing work for my department. During the past financial year an amount of R4,8 million was paid to private architects. New services to the value of R96 million have been entrusted to private architects during the past financial year.

In respect of engineers I should like to point out that 273 engineering practices, either solely or in consortium with others, are at present doing work for my department. During the past financial year an amount of R4,4 million was paid to private engineers. New services to the value of R94 million have been entrusted to private engineers during the past financial year.

In respect of quantity surveyors the position is basically the same. 171 quantity surveying practices, either solely or in consortium with others, are at present doing work for us. During the past financial year an amount of R2,5 million was paid to private quantity surveyors.

*Another important matter is the question of how commissions are given to the various professional firms. I should like to put it in this way: In an effort to be of more assistance than has been indicated above to the professions, the department adopts a procedure of commissions to private practitioners according to a rotation roster and it is also interchanges appointment commissions among the various State construction departments in an attempt to give as many as possible of the available private practitioners an opportunity to be productive. When we, the provincial administrations and other Government departments are engaged in building works and practitioner A is given a commission, contact is then maintained with the other practitioners so that practitioner A does not receive commissions from four or five different major public building organizations, but practitioners B, C, D, E and F also receive their fair share.

There is another new development in the department in the sense that the architect or engineer who plans the service is appointed as the main agent. This consequently makes him fully responsible for the co-ordination of the planning of the various facets of the project as well as for the programming and co-ordination and supervision of the project under construction. For this he is of course additionally remunerated.

This is a very great improvement on the old system of partial supervision by the architect and partial supervision by the department, for if problems arose under the old system, things went awry. The new system also affords great relief to the department’s limited technical cadre. The new system ensures continuity of control from the planning stage to the completion of the project. Inevitably the profession benefits greatly from this system.

Consequently I have every confidence that on the basis which I have tried to explain here, not only my department but the public sector in its entirety is in future able to offer the private sector more uniform employment opportunities. This ought to afford the professions greater peace of mind. However, it must be emphasized that although the department executes a certain portion of the creative work itself, it does not, under any circumstances, intend to expand its organization to such an extent that it is able to undertake the entire planning programme itself. It remains of the utmost importance to the department and the Republic that the department should at all times make full use of the initiative, creative potential and knowledge of the private sector, which is continuously being developed by research. In this way the department remains a partner in the industry and comprises the nucleus of its main function.

I should also like to refer to the distribution of funds in relation to our activities. I shall do so on the basis of the amount of R191 million which, as indicated in the White Paper for 1979-’80, is going to be appropriated. I just want to give an indication of how this amount is distributed percentage-wise. In the first place, 36,6% of R70 million of that amount is being spent on military bases. On educational institutions for people of colour, 23,1% is being spent; on prisons, 11,7%; on Police accommodation and periodic courts, 6,5%; on building complexes in general, 4,8%; on hospitals, 4,2%; on judicial buildings, 3,4%; on technical, vocational, industrial and special schools for White, 2,8%; and on research, 1,9%. This gives a total of approximately 95%. The remainder is distributed among State airports, Government garages, bridges, homes for Whites and Coloureds, certain other buildings, etc. This gives hon. members an indication of how this amount is being distributed.

This has been by way of introduction, to give hon. members an indication of the scope of the activities of the department, our policy and how we try to apply our policy in practice to the benefit of everyone involved, being the construction industry and the professional people involved. I should now like to refer to a few general matters.

†In the first instance I should like to make a statement about the development of Stalplein. The development of Stalplein with the attendant closure of Parliament Street to the general public is a subject which has been considered from time to time over the last approximately 20 years. Various schemes were investigated over the years, including the replacement of Marks Building with a new group of parliamentary buildings, but it was finally decided in 1973 to retain Marks Building in its present form.

The necessity for the replanning of Stalplein to provide a dignified setting, embracing Tuynhuys as well as the Houses of Parliament, to form a unified complex, has been reconsidered and it has now been decided to proceed with this project Let me give a brief indication of what the work involves. Firstly, it involves the removal of the equestrian statue of General Louis Botha to a position adjoining Plein Street facing Roeland Street Secondly, it involved the erection of an ornamental grill fence from the old Good Hope Theatre in Bouquet Street and alongside Plein Street right up to Hendrik Verwoerd Building to form a ceremonial area. Two ornamental gates on either side of the statue will provide access to the area This means that Parliament Street will thenceforth be permanently closed to public traffic and that the whole of Stalplein, Stal Street and Parliament Street will, in fact, be a controlled area. A grill fence and ornamental gate with two sentry boxes inside the controlled area will control access to Tuynhuys. Thirdly, the existing area in front of Tuynhuys, as well as the Stalplein parking area, will be converted into a level area for ceremonial purposes. The surface will be suitably laid out Fourthly, the cenotaph will be relocated in a fenced park. The park will be suitable for ceremonial occasions associated with the cenotaph and will be open to the public when Parliament is not in session. Fifthly, a two-level parking basement for official purposes will be built on the eastern side of Stalplein adjoining Hendrik Verwoerd Building.

Will that be for members of Parliament?

Yes. After this development no cars will be allowed outside the buildings or within the particular area. Sixthly, Parliament Street will be closed by the extension of the grill fence on the eastern boundary of the grounds of Parliament right up to Marks Building and, seventhly, trees will be planted on the pavement along Plein Street and the controlled area will be extensively decorated with trees and shrubs.

Negotiations are already in progress with the city council of Cape Town for the acquisition of certain municipal ground on Stalplein and if finality can be reached soon it is expected that the work will be put in hand in July 1980. It is intended to execute the project in two phases. Phase 1 will entail the removal of existing structures, the laying out of a reception area and grounds and the erection of a ceremonial enclosure in front of Tuynhuys, the relocation of the equestrian statue, the removal of the cenotaph and excavations for the parking basement. Phase 2 will entail the construction of underground parking and the layout of the remainder of the area. The project is expected to be completed in June 1983.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister if he can tell us what will happen to the Senate Chamber?

Mr. Chairman, there is no reason for me to tire myself with that now. I am discussing Stalplein and not the entire building complex. [Interjections.] How can the hon. member ask such a stupid question? The hon. member asked an equally stupid question yesterday. It seems to me the hon. member asks a stupid question once a day by way of recreation.

However, I want to express a few thoughts on another aspect, which is building on Sundays. The Department of Public Works does not allow building on Sundays and the department’s standard contract conditions in regard to this aspect consequently remain as follows—

Despite the fact that the department is in fact able to allow a contractor to work on a Sunday, and applications in this regard are frequently received, they are consistently refused, and the department has no knowledge of any application which has been granted during the past few years. However, it must be realized that emergencies such as power failures, blocked sewerage pipes, burst water mains, and so on, do in fact crop up from time to time on Sundays and then my department must of necessity arrange for the necessary repair work to be done. [Interjections.] Yes, when the heifer has fallen into the pit the necessary rescue operation has to be performed. My good theologian friend, the hon. member for Rissik, has stated the principle correctly for me here.

The contract conditions of the Department of Public Works also provide that the activities of a contractor are, inter alia, subject to the Industrial Conciliation Act, which controls conditions of service and the working hours of artisans, and which is administered by the Department of Labour. I have no control over building work in the private sector. Except in exceptional cases, the staff of the department does not work on Sundays either, and inspections are consequently not carried out, with the result that if a contractor were to execute work on a Sunday, it would take place without the knowledge of the department If a contractor were to execute work on a Sunday, steps would be taken against him in terms of his contract Consequently I should like to make an appeal today to all bodies, including the State, semi-State and any other bodies to respect this standpoint and to stop all unnecessary work on Sundays immediately.

† Mr. Chairman, there is another matter to which I want to refer in general, and that is the question of schools for non-Whites. A very large proportion of the funds voted annually by Parliament for the erection of new Government buildings by the Department of Public Works, is used for the provision of schools and other educational and training facilities for the non-White population groups. Of the R191 million provided for the major works programme for the present financial year, R44 206 000, or 23,14%, will be used for the erection of schools, etc., for Coloureds, Indians and Blacks. Of that amount R25 942 000, or 13,58%, will be used for schools for Coloureds; R16 874 000, or 8,83%, for schools for Indians; and R1 039 000, or 0,73%, for schools for Blacks.

Regarding the allocation for Blacks, I may mention that up to the present time the department has been concerned only with the provision of industrial training centres in or near the larger areas. As from this year, however, the department will also be responsible for the erection of senior secondary schools for Blacks in White areas. The estimated expenditure on schools of this type during the present financial year is only R160 000, but the amount will increase to about R3 295 000 during the 1980-’81 financial year and to about R8 615 000 during 1981-’82. In 1981-’82 the total estimated expenditure on all types of educational and training facilities for Blacks will in fact increase to R14 917 000 as against R1 510 000 in the present financial year.

Owing to the enormous need for school facilities for Coloureds, nearly all the school buildings the department has been erecting for that group, have until recently been of an industrialized construction. This building method has been employed mainly because it allows for much faster planning and erection than the conventional method. Originally the so-called “light mass” construction method was used, but it was not quite suitable in all respects. The “heavy mass” construction method by which the building section are cast in reinforced concrete, was then adopted. Owing to the limited number of contractors at present available in this field, a monopolistic situation has arisen in the case of four or five firms, with the result that they are falling behind with their contracts, apart from the unhealthy situation which has been created in the building industry as a whole. It has also been found that the aforementioned contractors are only effective if they operate near their factories. The department has therefore drawn up type plans for conventional building, and tenders are already being called for on this basis. This provides scope for much wider competition, which is in the interests not only of the department, but of the building industry as a whole. The industrialized building construction system will, however, still be employed. Initially all schools erected for Indians were conventional constructions, but because of the necessity for providing school facilities at a faster rate, especially in the Phoenix and Newlands areas in Durban, industrialized building systems were employed and are still being made use of where and when necessary. The conventional buildings are, however, preferred and since type plans are being used, there is no delay in the planning. All schools for Blacks which have been planned and erected up to now, are of conventional design.

*I should like to invite hon. members to look at the latest type of school which is being built by the Department of Public Works in various residential areas of the Coloureds and in particular of the Indians. I should like to invite the hon. members from Natal to visit the Phoenix area in Durban to see the beautiful schools and the type of construction which is going up there. I think these are splendid examples of the work at present being done by our department. I wish to furnish a few interesting figures, comparative figures in respect of the programmes of the past five years, and the programmes for the next five years. During the past five years R89 million has been programmed for Coloured schools and an amount of R206 million has been programmed for the next five years. During the next five years R36 million has been programmed for Indians and R134 million for the next five years. I am grateful to see that the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs is vigorously nodding his head.

I say thank you very much.

As far as the Blacks are concerned, R38 million was programmed for the past five years, as against R35 million for the next five years. I think this is wonderful forward planning by the department and on the part of the Government. Together with these large amounts of money which are being spent on the improvement of school facilities, there is unfortunately a negative matter which causes one great concern and which I feel I should once again bring to the attention of hon. members. This is the increase in vandalism at Coloured schools. Just to give hon. members an indication: In the 1971-’72 financial year there were 60 cases of vandalism and it cost us R800 to repair the damage. In the 1975-’76 financial year there were 247 cases, and an expenditure of R91 555. In 1977-’78 these figures rose to 501 cases and R270 000. This year there were 602 cases and the cost was R160 900. This is a very serious matter. I have been informed by the department in question that those involved are not prepared to request the pupils to pay a levy to cover this expenditure, but the administration concerned appreciates the exceptionally serious nature of this matter and that drastic and feasible steps should be taken to counteract the vandalism. At present consideration is being given to certain measures: Firstly, the employment of nightwatchmen. Such a service has already been introduced at a single school on a trial basis and no further cases of vandalism have occurred at this school since nightwatchmen were employed. The administration intends to expand this service. Secondly, the installation of powerful floodlights on school grounds, the installation of alarm systems where necessary, the installation of burglar bars on all windows and doors of school buildings, as well as wire grills across windows where necessary and the launching of a campaign to beautify school grounds and engender school pride. These are the various measures which are being considered to counteract vandalism.

The Department of Coloured, Rehoboth and Nama Relations shall also be informed that I have taken cognizance of the steps which are being envisaged, but since vandalism has recently assumed such tremendous proportions, the implementation of those steps will have to be tackled as the highest priority in order to halt this trend. Since it not only requires capital which could be employed for other essential needs, but also imposes a fruitless burden on the departments’ limited manpower, it is something which cannot be afforded. According to my information the sustained representations of the department and its standpoint that the community itself should suffer the consequences of this wasteful vandalism are beginning to produce positive results. A random sample carried out at one of the schools at which the greatest continuous incidence of vandalism occurred, indicated that after a nightwatchman had been appointed there were no further cases of vandalism. I hope that the community itself will give very serious attention to this matter because it cannot be expected of the Department of Public Works or any other Government department to spend taxpayers’ money, from Whites as well as Coloureds, on this scale to counteract unnecessary vandalism.

Mr. Chairman, I want to conclude with one interesting aspect. Hon. members know that the Department of Transport has a base in Antarctica. The Department of Public Works provides the functional buildings and other facilities at that base. The existing base at Sanae had in recent years begun to show signs of deterioration, to such an extent that it was decided to replace the base. Consequently the necessary money for that purpose was appropriated, and during the past two years there has been very active planning and work on the construction of a new base. I can assure hon. members that it is very interesting work which is being carried out by the department under very difficult circumstances. There was very little time to design the base. The buildings and all the appurtenances were designed here and constructed with great care at Wingfield, and after they had been constructed and after making sure that absolutely everything was in order, the entire construction was dismantled again piece by piece, right down to the last screw. Everything then had to be marked and a record kept of everything. All the parts were then loaded on board a ship and transported to the base.

Thanks to the efficient co-operation of the design team the entire project was loaded on board the S.A. Agulhas and 43 members of the building team, with approximately 2 000 tons of material, were on their way to the South Pole on 12 December 1978. However, there were problems. Only on 3 January 1979 was it possible to tie up alongside the ice bank. There were only about two months left in which the work could be done and consequently they set to work at once. On 5 March 95% of this work had been completed. The remainder of the work would also have been completed if it had not been for the icy conditions which made things difficult Two unmarried members were left behind and these two will unfortunately have to remain at the South Pole for the rest of the year in order to complete the remainder of the contract for it is impossible to get back from there. Only when the S.A. Agulhas steams to the South Pole again at the end of the year will these men be able to return.

Then the final 5% will have been completed!

Yes. Sir, there are a few hon. members here whom one should also send there for a year!

Hear, hear!

Mr. Chairman, I should just like to mention that the other members of the team all returned to South Africa in good health, except for one who broke his leg in an accident. But I must also mention with deep regret, particularly on our part, that the captain of the S.A. Agulhas, who was of great assistance to the team from our department, unfortunately passed away suddenly only a week after his arrival in the Republic.

This total contract cost R1 496 000. It is a large amount, but if one takes into consideration that this construction has been planned to last for at least 15 years, and that at the end of that period, if another base has to be built, a great deal of the material could be recovered, and that there are other advantages attached to this as well, then it is money that has been well spent and spent to great financial advantage. We in the department are proud of this project, and that is why I have mentioned it I should also like to convey my thanks to the officials who, at great personal inconvenience, spent many months in the South Pole region.

Now I just want to reply in greater detail to a few matters raised by hon. members. I think that I have in general outline already replied to a few of them, but I want to refer to some of the matters in greater detail.

The hon. member for Parktown referred to the house in Teheran. The property has been purchased, and I shall content myself with saying that. The property falls under the Department of Foreign Affairs and any other comment in regard to this transaction has not been laid at my door. Consequently I content myself with saying that that is what happened in regard to the property.

To the question of whether we have plans for more effective training of Black labourers, the reply is that we do not have Black labour in the sense which the hon. member has in mind. For the present, therefore, the Wiehahn and Riekert reports are not applicable to us. We have more of a Black labour corps, but not the Black labour which the hon. member has in mind. On the question of what contribution we can make to stimulate the building industry, the construction industry, particularly in good and bad times…

Equalization rather than stimulation.

I am pleased the hon. member is mentioning this, because that is precisely what I wanted to identify. On the part of the Department of Public Works, which is one of the State’s most important building factors, our five year programming is in fact the equalization process which the hon. member for Parktown should like to see. I think it is a very important contribution. Consequently we can, for the space of five years, now tell the private sector what our building programme looks like and how many millions of rands we are going to spend within the next five years, regardless of valley periods. The private sector can try to adapt to this. This is our contribution in regard to the hon. member’s problem. I think I have now replied to his various questions.

I am grateful to the hon. member for Edenvale and other hon. members who were so kind as to congratulate me on my appointment as Minister, as well as for the splendid comment on our staff. We appreciate it The hon. member referred to last year’s Select Committee. I just want to draw his attention to the fact that the Select Committee has been reappointed this year. The hon. member will note that I proposed last week that the Select Committee be reappointed. A few days ago I was informed by the Chief Whip that the names have already been decided on, despite the fact that the Vote is now being disposed of here. There are technical reasons why such a Select Committee has to be appointed only after the budget announcement. Consequently I am going to adopt the same pattern this year as well, as in the past I appreciate that the hon. member for Edenvale, who was chairman of the committee, and other hon. members derived great benefit from last year’s talks with the Secretary of the department and other officials. On our part we should like to make another contribution this year to keeping hon. members informed on our department It is a pleasant privilege for us.

I have already replied to the question the hon. member asked on what we envisage doing with Stalplein. It is a very fine development and I invite hon. members to my office to come and look at the sketch plan of what Stalplein will look like. It is something we are very proud of. I think that when this project has been completed one day it will serve as a monument to the present Secretary for Public Works. He has worked hard, exceptionally hard for this development. I hope it will be completed before he retires one day.

It is a positive idea that new or existing buildings should be planned in such a way that they may also be used as bomb shelters. I want to assure the hon. member that we shall give attention to this in the planning of new buildings. I cannot commit myself any further to this at the moment, except to say that if one looks at the Hendrik Verwoerd building, for example, and the developments which are going to take place on Stalplein, there is a fundamental contribution towards this.

I should also like to refer to the hon. member for Paarl, and thank him for this kind words. In particular he emphasized the magistrate’s office situation in Paarl. I have been informed that a new and excellent project is going to be built there. I should like to give the hon. member the assurance that we have no intention at all of demolishing the old building. The department is already planning to have the old building used systematically for Government purposes when the time arrives. Of course we do not have any certainty in this matter yet.

I am also very grateful for the contribution made by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central. In Port Elizabeth there is a very fine example of the decentralization of State offices. I should like to inform hon. members that the building in question, which is very large, is probably one of the neatest Government buildings I have ever been in. I shall come to the hon. member for Innesdal and his problems. That is why I am just mentioning in passing that in Port Elizabeth we already have an example of one of the neatest buildings in that city. The Department of Public Works will certainly give serious attention to the general ideas expressed by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central in regard to alternatives.

I am grateful to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South, who is in such a good mood today. That hon. member is always in a good mood, but sometimes he pretends to have gotten up out of the wrong side of the bed. He is not a bad chap at all. I must honestly say that I cannot understand what he is doing in that party. [Interjections.] I agree with the hon. member that I am a very fortunate Minister to have received such a top-class department from the Prime Minister to manage on a ministerial level. I am very grateful for that. The hon. member applied his business acumen and gave full reign to his imagination in his contribution to this debate. To some of the ideas he has already given the answer himself. For example he gave the answer to the first part of his question himself.

As far as the second part is concerned, I want to tell the hon. member that I share his concern. It is true—and I am concerned about this—that we cannot, even in a period of a building recession, obtain sufficient staff, and precisely in those cadres in which we need them the most. I am thinking for example of staff for technical supervision. People between the ages of 30 and 40 are those whom we need the most. But as soon as we have trained someone in the department he is lured away by the private sector. Unfortunately we cannot compete with the private sector. We cannot even compete with the local authority sector. Consequently we constantly have a tremendous shortage there. But we have at least made serious representations to the Public Service Commission for assistance in this connection. As far as I am concerned, something will definitely have to be done. The State cannot be held liable for more than R1 000 million, be entrusted with these major building projects, only to have to endure a shortage of very valuable staff in those specific groups. Consequently I am grateful for the contribution which the hon. member made in this connection.

As for the hon. member for Boksburg, I can only say that in this connection he is following in the footsteps of his predecessor, the late Mr. Sias Reyneke, who also reminded us in this House very earnestly of the situation in Boksburg. The present hon. member also mentioned certain figures. I agree with the hon. member that it is his task to bring this serious matter to our attention here. I am also grateful for the particulars furnished by the hon. member. They were very interesting. But I should like to bring certain other facts to the attention of the hon. member as well. When new areas are opened up, land is usually reserved for State purposes as well. When land is earmarked for public offices it is transferred to the care of my department It is then the responsibility of my department to ensure that the site in question is kept clean and neat, that no dumping takes place, and that there is no unlawful use of that land.

It frequently happens that land of this kind is reserved for a service which at present has only a limited priority, and to which greater priority will only be accorded in later years. It frequently happens that we are compelled to fence such properties as a result of the behaviour of the public. The hon. member is aware that it is not the policy of the State to alienate land, which might be utilized in future either for building purposes or for possible exchange for other land. Moreover the sale of land is the function of the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure. I also want to point out to the hon. member that it is not only my department that owns land. The Department of Posts and Telecommunications has its own land. The Department of Community Development controls certain sites on which housing schemes have to be established. In this way, too, the various provinces have their own land.

However, I have a great understanding of the hon. member’s representations. The hon. member has also had considerable experience of local government. Therefore I want to invite him to make closer contact with my department. I want to assure him that the department would like, with him, to make a survey of the situation in Boksburg, and that we shall also take an in-depth look at our own situation. The hon. member must simply accept that. We shall take a penetrating look at the entire situation there, particularly in regard to the sites which have been allocated to my department. I can give the hon. member the assurance that if there are sites that have remained unutilized for 70, 80 or 90 years, and there are no sound reasons for that land not being utilized in the foreseeable future, my department will inquire into what can be done about the matter. To my mind there is no sense in having 50, 60 or 70 unused stands in strategic places, in excellent business areas, which have not been utilized at all for such a long period. In such a case there is probably no good reason why those stands should be kept.

I am not committing myself in any way as far as the future is concerned. All that I am saying is that my department, together with the hon. member, will take an in-depth look at the matter and that, depending on our findings, we shall then decide what we are able to do, in conjunction with the Boksburg town council and other parties involved, to bring about a more meaningful reservation and/or utilization of that land in Boksburg.

There are still one or two matters left. The hon. member for Bellville discussed a matter which I think is very important. He asked whether there should be a reappraisal of our policy in the provision of office space for the department This is a matter to which we have frequently given attention in the past My department builds as few office buildings as possible itself. We erect other buildings, but office space we lease as far as possible. It is an exception if we erect office buildings for our own use.

I come now to the question of Plein Street The hon. member asked me what considerations applied when it was decided that the Department of Public Works should construct the building. However, the building will not be constructed by the Department of Public Works itself. As with other similar large buildings, this building will be built by way of private contract. It is consequently the private sector that is going to benefit from the construction of this building, and not the State as such. In my opinion it is quite a good idea that it is being planned to make provision for shops in the basement of this specific building in Plein Street. As hon. members themselves know, it is not customary, but this building is being constructed in Plein Street, and in this particular area of Cape Town. I think that the State is in this respect making an excellent contribution to reviving this part of the city, so that more people will be attracted to it It will also be of great benefit to the other shop tenants in the immediate vicinity.

I come now to the question of the payment of rates on State-owned properties in municipal areas. Other hon. members also discussed this matter, and I have taken cognizance of the serious concern of hon. members over this matter. I myself come from a town, Potchefstroom, which is heavily burdened by the large properties owned in the town by the State. But hon. members must pardon me if I say that I do not wish to comment on this matter any further. I do not think it would be very fraternal of me to make any kind of negative comment on the subject, because the hon. the Minister of Finance is the person actually involved in the consideration of this matter and its presentation to the Government.

Finally, I just want to refer to the contribution made by the hon. member for Innesdal. The hon. member has great reason to boast about Pretoria, but that is as far as I am prepared to go. [Interjections.] After all there are other places in the world as well, besides Pretoria. [Interjections.] I concede that he is correct when he says that Pretoria is a beautiful city, but not necessarily the most beautiful. The hon. member expressed concern over the appearance of our Government buildings. He said they look decrepit and old-fashioned and had a mouldy appearance, etc. I am very fond of that hon. member, and we are great friends, but I do not think he should refer in that way to our Government buildings. The hon. member even furnished examples, and I cannot agree at all with those examples. For example he spoke about the building of the Department of Co-operation and Development, in Paul Kruger Street in Pretoria. But I think that is quite an elegant building. If one walks past the head office of the Railways, and past the Department of Labour, and one turns down into Von Wielligh Street, one arrives at the building of the Department of Public Works. This is one of the most beautiful buildings in Pretoria One need only look at the front page of the annual report of the department It is a wonderful example of a Government office. I do not think it can be excelled. Unfortunately, therefore, I have to differ with that hon. friend of mine.

Yes, suspend him! [Interjections.]

I must say that if he again refers to our buildings as being decrepit, mouldy and old-fashioned, I shall take him to the caucus. [Interjections.]

Mr.Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he will give consideration to my request—I refer specifically to the appearance and condition of the inside of most of the older Government buildings—because I really believe that there are some of them which are decrepit and mouldy.

Mr. Chairman, I agree with the hon. member; he must just give me a chance. I was on the point of dealing with the matter.

Well, get to the point.

Once again I want to say that I agree with the hon. member in the sense that there could be a single example, such as those to which the hon. member referred. However, the hon. member was a Public Servant himself.

Yes, and that is why he knows. [Interjections.]

I was also a Public Servant and I worked in the same kind of office as those in which the hon. member worked. I can give the Committee the assurance that some of the buildings in which we worked were 60, 70 or 80 years old. The desks and chairs were old, but it so happened that one became fond of the things after a while. One even came to regard them as being charming. Consequently one’s attitude also plays a part.

Is Helen becoming charming to you too?

Yes, I have found the hon. member to be charming for a long time. [Interjections.]

In any case, I should like to sound a more positive note. Let us concede to one another that there are a few buildings which could be “dolled up” a little, but I now want to take the hon. member with me on an imaginery tour through South Africa. But I shall not enumerate all the buildings. We can begin at Walvis Bay and end at Durban. I could point out to him one example after the other of old buildings, the interiors of which are still maintained in such a neat and effective condition that everyone can be proud of them. I could refer in passing to the Union Buildings in Pretoria, to the Civitas building in Pretoria and to the PWD building in Pretoria. They are beautiful buildings, inside and out I have already referred to the Central Government building in Port Elizabeth. Let us look at the Supreme Court building in Durban. What does that building look like now? The Natalians would do well to go and have a look at it.

What about the Howick station?

The hon. member also referred to other amenities within the buildings. I concede that the hon. member is correct when he says that we should try our best to make it as pleasant as possible for our staff inside the buildings. Consequently we are in fact doing so. I can produce a long list of buildings in Pretoria, Cape Town, Johannesburg, etc., in which restaurants have been provided, for example. In some buildings there are the gymnasium facilities which the hon. member mentioned. However, all of us will realize that it is impossible to provide amenities of this kind in all large Government buildings. We do not have the necessary funds available for that purpose, and the buildings have not necessarily been equipped for such amenities.

As far as new buildings are concerned, the idea expressed by the hon. member was a very positive one. I also think that we should endeavour to make it possible for our friends who want to cycle to work to arrive at the office and prepare themselves conveniently and comfortably for the daily task which lies ahead. Consequently I thank the hon. member for his contribution. I have differed with him here and there, but I agree with him that the necessary facilities should be made available to our officials as effectively as possible.

I want to conclude with one final idea. Hon. members would be well advised to take the trouble to visit the Government buildings which have been constructed under the supervision of the Department of Public Works in the various regions, towns and cities they come from. Let us accompany an official of my department to Walvis Bay. There are some places where one finds nothing but sand dunes. The official takes one to a site and tells one that that is the site on which a school has to be erected for the Coloureds. On the dunes perhaps five marking posts have been put up. But the wind begins to blow, and when one returns to the site later, the dune which was on the left-hand side is now on the right-hand side. Where is the official’s site now?

I can take hon. members to beautiful places in Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and Durban. We could use such places as a wonderful advertisement for our country. In Durban hon. members can pay a visit to Phoenix. In the Durban city centre hon. members could go and look at the magistrate’s office, and the Supreme Court building. They should drive to Chatsworth and look at the beautiful State buildings that have been erected there from the one hillcrest to the other, opposite the hotel on the other side of the vlei. We can take our overseas visitors there and show them the wonderful examples of how the State is doing its best to accommodate all population groups in South Africa.

I am grateful for the contributions of all members to this debate. I am grateful for the opportunity. I can give the assurance that it is a pleasant privilege to be involved with this department.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No. 39.—“Tourism”:

Mr. Chairman, on this occasion I should just like to welcome the hon. the Minister, since he is handling the Tourism Vote for the first time, and wish him a successful term of office in that capacity.

The year 1978 was an encouraging year for the tourist industry in South Africa. A downward trend in the number of overseas visitors to this country over a period of three years was arrested in 1978 and changed to a definite upswing. Thus far, according to my information, this trend is still continuing into 1979. It is once again necessary, at this stage, to emphasize the enormous value of the tourist industry for South Africa. It is estimated that an amount of R330 million was earned in 1978 from overseas tourism. The potential for extension of our tourist industry is, however, still phenomenal and as the world shrinks because of improved means of transport and communication, South Africa can benefit much more from a growing tourist inflow. The most positive factor of South Africa as a tourist country, of course, remains the fact that it is a country which, as far as variety is concerned, can offer almost everything a tourist could desire. It is therefore appropriate that the S.A. Tourist Corporation emphasizes this diversity in its publicity, and it does so by way of the slogan “South Africa—a world in one country”. The most important negative factor undoubtedly remains the great distances between us in South Africa and our most important potential tourist markets. In this regard I think that there might still be room for improvement.

Something which struck me was the fact that in our entire publicity campaign we are really aiming at the tourist in the higher income groups. This can be understood to a certain degree because these tourists are obviously people who bring the most money into the country. For file tourist of the middle and lower-income groups, however, in my humble opinion not enough can be found in the publicity on behalf of South Africa overseas. As far as the longterm prospects for our tourist industry are concerned, we should, in my opinion, give more attention to the young tourist in particular, i.e. the student or the young person who wants to see the world before he enters the professional or business life permanently. Special attention to this type of tourist is an investment in the future of tourism in South Africa because these tourists will return to South Africa when they are richer and might bring families and even friends with them. The indications are strong that people who have once visited South Africa, like very much to return to this country.

†It is not true—in fact, this is a damaging myth prevalent amongst tourist authorities in this country—that the young tourist and the student type of tourist, i.e. the student with a knapsack on his back, do not spend any money in South Africa. My impression is that the young tourist saves on accommodation and on direct travel expenses, but that he probably spends as much as any other tourist in other respects. The ever increasing number of young travellers requires the attention of the tourist trade of South Africa. In this respect I want to make four specific suggestions. Firstly, in our advertising more stress must be placed on the fact that South Africa is a cheap tourist country. This fact is already being advertised, but I believe that more stress can be placed on it. The cheap facilities must be highlighted to a greater extent. The second point is that we must overcome in the mind of the prospective tourist the main objection of the high cost of travelling from his home to South Africa. This can be done firstly by presenting comparative information indicating that the total cost of a holiday in South Africa is in fact relatively low and, secondly, by in fact creating opportunities through cheaper air fares and travelling facilities. This can be done with the co-operation of travel agencies and airlines. The possibility of charter flights has been canvassed before, but I believe it requires re-examination at regular intervals. The third point I want to make is that we have to look at possibilities of cheaper domestic travel for the younger tourist. I want to suggest that a facility similar to the Eurail pass, which is available in western and central Europe, be provided. The Eurail pass offers unlimited travel for a specific period at a lump sum. I am convinced that this type of facility can be offered without any great sacrifice on the part of the providers of public transport in South Africa, such as the S.A. Railways. Fourthly I believe that cheaper accommodation must be provided for those tourists who would like to visit South Africa and who would otherwise spend a lot of money, but who are not prepared to spend all their money merely for a roof over their heads. In this regard I want to make a very special appeal for departmental co-operation and assistance to the Youth Hostels Association of South Africa. I do not have to tell the House what extensive use is made of youth hostels on the European continent and to what extent the youth hostel movement is integrated with the tourist trade in Europe and the service it renders to the tourist trade in European countries. In South Africa overnight accommodation for youth hostel members is available at a nominal charge of R1,20 per night. This small amount can clearly be afforded by even the most impecunious young tourist. The difficulty is however that at present only six of these youth hostels exist in South Africa. There are two in Cape Ton, one in Port Elizabeth, one in East London, one in Johannesburg and one at Hartbeespoort Dam In my view it is of the utmost importance that more youth hostels should be provided so that at least one continuous chain of hostels can be established around the country. Youth hostel accommodation is normally provided in existing and very frequently old buildings, with the result that it does not require a big investment. I think it is fair to ask for financial assistance from the Government in this regard. In addition, I want to appeal to the department to direct its advertising campaign through the S.A. Tourist Corporation to a large extent to the younger and poorer tourists and not just to give it secondary treatment in its advertising efforts. Furthermore, it must give more attention to youth hostels in its advertising pamphlets and advertising efforts. I believe that if sympathetic attention is given to these matters and the correct action is taken, South African tourism will pick the fruits of its efforts in the long run.

*Mr. Chairman, I want to mention a few final points. In the report of the S.A. Tourist Corporation and the report of the department, mention is made of the publications they release to advertise South Africa. I think that one aspect in particular deserves a compliment. Those are the publications dealing with specific interests. In this regard I have in mind in particular publications concerning the various types of succulents found in South Africa, as well as publications concerning other plant species, hiking ways in South Africa, and other geographical and geological tourist attractions. This type of attraction counts for a great deal with the general tourist, but especially with the tourist who is intensely interested in one of these fields. I think the department has done itself and South Africa a favour with this type of publications, and I hope that more of these publications will see the light. In this regard I want to add that in my opinion, this type of publication about tourist attractions is once again suited to the tourist—I do not want to say the poorer tourist—who cannot afford to stay in a two- or three-star hotel, and who cannot afford to travel through the country in the most expensive manner. This type of facility fits in with his desires. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I like speaking after the hon. member for Green Point. I cannot argue with him about any of his arguments. I appreciate his interest in the young tourist and in the potential of the young tourist. In my speech I shall also be referring to the young tourist, particularly to the young tourist in South Africa.

I should like to avail myself of this opportunity of congratulating the hon. the Minister most sincerely on the responsibility which has been entrusted to his care, the challenge of the tourist industry. We have no doubt at all that he will make a success of this responsible task. We on this side of the House not only wish him success, but also work satisfaction in carrying out his responsibility. Although it is not really necessary, we on this side of the House who are members of the tourism group, want to assure him once again of our loyalty, our co-operation and our desire to maintain a good spirit throughout On behalf of the tourism group, I also want to avail myself of this opportunity to express our appreciation to his predecessor, the Hon. Marais Steyn. I want to emphasize and confirm that we have appreciation for the part he has played in the splendid tourist industry of South Africa.

The hon. member for Green Point said that every South African may be justifiably thankful and proud of our achievement during the past financial year when we succeeded for the first time in history in attracting a larger number of tourist to South African than the number of South Africans who toured abroad. This once again confirms what we have always suspected, and that is that South Africa has a product to offer. We have breath-taking natural scenery. We have a wealth of animal life, rugged mountains, warm sun and clean air. But I do not think that the existence of these resources alone was sufficient reason to attract 503 119 visitors to South Africa. After all, the product had to be presented, too. I believe that the Secretary to this department, with his relatively small staff and relatively small budget, deserves the thanks and appreciation of every hon. member of this House. The enthusiastic way in which they have presented their product, and their more aggressive marketing methods, have borne fruit I should like to express my thanks and appreciation to the department, Satour and the Hotel Board.

One would not like to begrudge anyone the privilege of an overseas tour, but I think it would be a good thing to advise prospective tourists again to remain at home, not in the sense that they should remain at their own homes but that they should tour within the borders of South Africa. I think it was Langenhoven who said on occasion—

I think one could also apply that to this industry, by saying: “As many areas of my country as I have seen, as many times over am I a richer tourist.”

On occasion of the opening of Parliament the State President mentioned the growing tourist industry in his opening address. It has developed into an industry which one can no longer ignore. One can no longer ignore an industry in which the local tourists spend R680 million and the overseas tourists approximately R330 million—therefore a total of R1 000 million—per annum. When one considers this, one realizes that this industry may not be neglected or suffer any setbacks, that it deserves more attention and that greater value should be attached to it Because the growth rate of the tourist industry cannot be easily determined, I think that in the past the need for the planning of future tourism in the whole world, and perhaps in South Africa too, was not properly assessed. Throughout the world the tourist industry proper came into existence in 1936. Since 1936 the ordinary official, the farmer, the teacher and the medical doctor have also begun to tour. Before that time it was only the nobility and the really wealthy who toured. But I think that no one could foresee in 1936 that, after a single flight, 350 tourists could alight at an airport No one could foresee how many beds would be required to allow those people to rest, and how many interpreters would be required to make them intelligible in the country they were visiting. Over the years a relatively systematic growth has developed in the tourist industry. The unpredictable will always still disrupt the normal growth. Natural disasters, strikes, energy crises, war situations, etc., will disrupt it. The person who markets as well as the person who co-ordinates tourism is much better informed today to reduce these negative factors and to diminish their effect That is why it has also become necessary to produce a renewed effort to encourage systematic tourist traffic in South Africa and consequently to encourage disciplined tourism.

The tourist industry has developed to a status where, I believe, with the necessary training and leadership facilities already in existence, we can give attention to the potential tourist of tomorrow. These are the children and young people. They are the potential tourists within the borders of South Africa. When one considers that at any given moment in the vicinity of 100 000 potential new independent young people could probably enter the market, one realizes that these 100 000 young people are not informed to be able to enjoy the tourist industry to its true value. If one were to walk into any school today, and were to ask the senior pupils how one reserves accommodation for a holiday, how one budgets for a holiday, how one applies for a passport, how one reads a train or aircraft timetable or how pollution should be prevented when on tour, I wonder how many of these pupils would be able to answer with reasonable certainty.

The demands of modern living have become so onerous today that one must forget about the idea of having a holiday consisting of 14 leisurely days of basking in the sun. I think that any young South African ought to feel he has a responsibility to his country and to spend at least half of those sunny days exploring the countryside around him with open eyes. In this field our normal educational institutions lend themselves to the education of the potential young tourist. The drafters of the syllabuses should thoroughly examine the possibility of geography teachers pointing out to the class the great distances between the scenic attractions in South Africa and pointing out to them the places where one can rest and indicating the normal distance which could be covered within a day’s journey. The history teacher could with great ease present our rich cultural historic heritage in such a way that their pupils’ interests was stimulated to such an extent that they made inquiries about the accessibility of places of historic interest I think that the bookkeeping teacher could profitably set aside a class or two to inform the children about the drafting of a holiday budget.

With a little effort our normal educational institutions could succeed in helping to ensure that we can have a systematic tourist industry traffic in future and that we will have disciplined tourists. I think that disciplined tourists, particularly in future, will be of more and more value to South Africa. In West Germany the various opposition parties have already begun, on a party-political basis, to provide tourists with guidance. The Government party produced a caricature sketch programme of how a tourist ought to behave himself, and the opposition party countered with a brochure entitled “Holiday Hints” of which millions were distributed. I think that they realize that throughout the world, owing to the mass movement, one has to strive for disciplined tourists. South Africa which, owing to our population structure, has a relatively small number of potential White tourists, will increasingly have to discipline the movement of the White tourists and not only that it will also have to provide the non-White tourists with guidance, enabling him to take cognizance in a disciplined way of the wealth of natural treasures in South Africa, and the homelands as well, which should receive attention and be developed in future. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, every year it is my exceptional and pleasant privilege to speak immediately after the hon. member for Bethlehem in this Vote. As usual, he made a sound contribution, and since he focussed the spotlight on tourism as an industry, I should very much like to associate myself with him.

Sir, it is not an uncommon statement that tourism is the largest single industry in the world. A great deal of money is invested in tourism, and it is also an industry which yields great dividends. But I believe that the value of tourism does not only lie in the financial aspect; we should not lose sight of the value of tourism for introducing people to a country and creating sound relationships. The physical, aesthetic and cultural value of the industry should not be underestimated either.

The voyages of exploration opened up the world to us, and in the same way a journey holds many advantages for the perceptive traveller, even today. Not only does it contain the component of recreation and a holiday, but the very important ingredient of education as well. Having said that, it should be clear to us that there is no other industry in the world which combines all these components. When we page through the annual reports of the Department of Tourism and the Control Board of the South African Tourist Corporation, it is clear that South Africa is gaining an ever growing share of the tourist industry, and that the value that it has for our country, financially, and as a means of introducing people to this country and fostering relations among people, can never be properly assessed. It has already been said that according to calculations, the foreign visitor spends approximately R360 million in South Africa annually. On the other hand the domestic tourist spends approximately R600 million per year. In aggregate this means a turnover of approximately R1 000 million per annum. I do not think that this amount represents the saturation point in regard to tourism. On the contrary, I believe that as far as this industry is concerned, we are merely well under way and that with vision, enterprise and enthusiasm, and by eliminating the problems in the industry, our tourism in South Africa could be developed and strengthened.

It is interesting to note that virtually the whole of South Africa can share in this industry. While most other activities and industries are virtually locality-bound and largely dependent on where nature stored the particular raw material, we find that as far as tourism is concerned, virtually the whole of South Africa unfolds before us and that nature in South African sometimes imbues the remotest place in our country with exceptional tourist value. I am mentioning this because I have encountered in South Africa a spirit in which growth points which can be developed are being feverishly sought, and in which local authorities often, against all the laws of nature waste all their energies on the establishment of industries at places where they can never be viable, while the obvious source of growth and development is tourism.

Unfortunately there are people in South Africa who associate progress and development only with the factory chimney belching its black, polluting smoke, while they ignore the development potential of tourism. I suspect that regional committees for tourism are not functioning equally well everywhere, and that as a result tourism is not realizing its full potential. With a few exceptions, I find a lack of interest with many of these regional committees. Tourism is left in the hands of a small group of persons. I find that there is a lack of enterprise. Tourist attractions are not developed. There is a shortage of funds. I believe that money invested in tourism, is not always seen as an investment for development. There is also a lack of coordination. We find that every town struggles along on its own. The result is that the industry is not being shared equally.

In many of these regions there is also a lack of publicity. Surely it is true that unknown is also unloved. For that reason any request this afternoon is that these regional committees should not be abolished. With reference to the Bible text on the fig tree, I want to ask that we should also give these regional committees a chance for another year. I want to ask, if this is possible, whether there cannot be a public relations officer at the Department of Tourism whose task it will be to activate the regional committees, providing them with guidance and inspiring them in this task.

I regard these regional committees as being of very great importance, particularly with reference to page 15 of the annual report of the Department of Tourism. I quote from the paragraph dealing with inter-regional marketing of tourism. I want to quote two sentences—

The second sentence I want to quote, reads as follows—

I do not know how far research into interregional marketing has developed. But I want to recommend it as a direction in tourism which must most definitely be developed. We can take a region and then market it internationally. I believe this will infuse a new spirit into the regions concerned, and present the regional committees concerned, and everyone involved in tourism, with new alternatives.

That is why, because this is the standpoint of the department—and I believe it will be developed—it is essential that positive steps be taken locally to ensure that the greatest possible advantage be derived from this. I believe that this can be done, firstly, by creating adequate and effective accommodation which enables the tourist to stay the night. I am not asking now that we should begin to build more hotels everywhere, but that regional committees and the people involved in tourism in that region, should ensure that the accommodation provided, is of a good standard. It can also be done by the development of additional local attractions, and by creating greater entertainment for tourists.

I conclude by saying that tourism is a great challenge to our spirit of enterprise. I believe that this industry can make an even greater contribution to the infrastructure of our country, and of our regions and towns.

Mr. Chairman, it would seem that everybody in the House is keeping the peace this afternoon. I certainly do not intend to disturb it in this debate on tourism. The hon. member for Umhlanga has offered his apologies. He had to leave by air a few minutes ago. He wished to take part in the debate, but could unfortunately not wait.

He went touring.

That is right, he went touring. I wish to point out to the hon. the Minister again, as I did a couple of hours ago, that he is again either picked or is lucky enough to find a very fine department It is a healthy enthusiastic group of men and I sincerely think he is fortunate and most probably one of the luckiest Ministers in that he has two excellent departments. [Interjections.]

I have known most of the members of his staff for many years. We used to go to school together. They are very capable, able and enthusiastic. I hate to use the term “typical civil servant” because it has a bad connotation. However, these people are professional people. The whole group he has working for him have a keenness and an interest in their job which one can see and feel, especially when one reads the annual report of the Department of Tourism. In reading that report one can sense the same spirit of enthusiasm which they reveal in the performance of their duties. I must point out that the report, as I understand it, was compiled in a great hurry. The Secretary apologized for that, but I believe it was not necessary for him to do that. The facts and figures, in fact all the information supplied in the report, are extremely interesting and make excellent reading, even though the report was compiled post-haste. The report gives one a very clear insight into the workings of the department. I should like to suggest, however, to the hon. the Minister to consider giving us in future, instead of the historical résumé published in this year’s report, some look at the future. That is something which should certainly be contained in the report. That will give us the opportunity of debating, not what has happened, but what the future prospects and trends will be, what future direction the department intends to follow and what future attitude it intends to adopt. Only then will it be possible for us to have a more meaningful debate, instead of merely thanking the hon. the Minister and his department for the good job they have done. I believe it is more important that we should discuss the future plans and schemes of the tourist industry.

While discussing this report, I should also like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that the financial position and the budgeting programme of Satour be included in future annual reports of the department The bulk of the department’s funds goes to Satour. That is why I believe it is important that we should be given an insight into what is taking place there. That is not because I am inquisitive nor that I believe that Satour is not doing a proper job. Hon. members may ask why I am interested in seeing this. As a businessman I want to be able to assess the proportions and the ratios of funds applied for various functions. As we all know, more than R330 million is derived each year from the tourist trade. When one looks at that figure, the question arises whether this could be improved. I believe, as do all hon. members, that this country has a tremendous future potential for tourism. This has already been proved by the growth experienced over the last few years. However, when one applies the rule of thumb, a basic business practice rule, and employs for the purposes of advertising and promotion anything between 2% and 10% of one’s total annual income, one discovers certain interesting facts. I have made a few inquiries about this. If one has, for instance, a Rolls Royce which one wants to market, one might spend a low figure of 2% or 3% on advertising, but if one markets a product like Coca Cola or breakfast cereals or cosmetics, for example, that figure could be as high as 10%. We all realize, of course, that we are marketing a product the value of which can be compared with that of a Rolls Royce. South Africa is a Rolls Royce. Therefore, it is an easy product to market. Therefore, one could very easily suggest a figure of 2% or 3% as a marketing guide or as a guide to promotional and advertising expenses which should be allowed. However, when one looks at what the department actually does spend, it appears that it is R3 million at the most, which gives us a figure of roughly 1% of our total budget; perhaps even less than that. That is the amount which is being spent on advertising and promotion of the tourist trade.

It should be quite obvious to the hon. the Minister that by increasing that amount by a few million rand a year, the total inflow could be phenomenal. It could possibly even double the present total of R330 million in foreign exchange flowing into the country by way of the tourist trade. I notice that Satour has opened a new office in Chicago. I think this is a good move, but I want to point out to the hon. the Minister that there are at least half a dozen cities in the United States that could serve equally as well. The United States is so large. In fact, it is virtually a group of islands in itself. The tourist potential it offers our country is tremendous. One of the hon. the Minister’s staff members mentioned a small town in Fargo, North Dakota. He said that they had conducted a test survey there and that within a few minutes he was able to get a big tour together. In a small town like that he was able to get together a tour that gave our country a tremendous income. I found exactly the same thing when I was talking to cattlemen in the United States in October of last year. Those chaps were planning a cattle tour and they were looking for a place to go. They had plans to go to Europe, but I suggested that they see South Africa. They asked me to draw up a budget for them, so I came back to South Africa, chatted to a tourist agent and, after two telex messages, was able to get together a tour group of 42 people who will be arriving in this country within a few months’ time. It is so easy to sell this country because after one has deducted the fare our country has so much more to offer tourists than European countries do.

Perhaps one could even talk to the hon. the Minister of Transport and try to get him to allow us to bring in group tours on a low cost budget basis. Laker-type groups should be allowed to bring tourists into this country. I know the hon. the Minister is pretty obstinate but, oh boy, if we could get such group tours coming to South Africa it certainly would bring us in tremendous funds.

We must just take a look at what the Argentinian tourist is bringing to South Africa. This morning I established the fact that pretty close on half of them leave R1 400 in this country after they have paid for their air tickets. R1 400 is left in South Africa by at least half the tourists that come from South America. I therefore believe that with a little more push the industry that this hon. Minister now has under his control can be made to stand on its head.

I would rather it stood on its feet.

Yes, it is a good industry. I should like to add a special appeal to private enterprise to start building hotels now, and I think private enterprise should start by building a group of hotels in Cape Town. This special appeal is directed at the private sector. In the past few years one has seen hotels in Cape Town simply becoming chock-a-block. It is almost impossible to get hotel bookings. Every overseas tourist, however, wants to see Cape Town, so we cannot leave that out of the tour. The same trend is starting to manifest itself in Johannesburg. The hotels are becoming fully booked. The day is fast drawing near when the hon. the Minister is going to have to say he cannot supply tourists with hotel accommodation any more. My appeal is directed at bodies like Sanlam and Old Mutual. They should put their money into these hotels because there is tremendous potential in this field in the very near future.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to add one more point.

Order! Unfortunately the hon. member cannot add that point, because his time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, at the beginning of his speech the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South referred to the hon. the Minister and said that he was fortunate to have two such departments under him. But I want to tell him that I think that the two departments are very fortunate to have such a Minister. On a few occasions we were privileged to visit certain places with our hon. the Minister of Tourism, and I want to say frankly that the enthusiasm which shone from him, was infectious to us as a group. We thank him very much for that.

We South Africans do not always realize how fortunate we are, here at our point of the continent, in having such excellent natural assets such as mountain ranges, forests, nature reserves, beaches, sparkling oceans and animal life. From all over the world tourists flock here to share for a brief while in these wonderful natural assets of our country. Linked to this is our impressive industrial development over the past decades. We are also justifiably proud of this. However, we are paying the price of progress.

Our beautiful, untouched natural heritage is threatened by pollution and inadequate conservation measures. Over-grazing and poor farming methods in the interior are causing muddy beaches and silted rivers. Waste products are spoiling the streams, bays, river mouths and beaches. The sky which has been a bright blue up to now, is being darkened. Dirty, unhealthy rubbish is disfiguring the landscape. Black oil is sullying the beaches. Natural plant growth is being destroyed by developers. Inadequate control is also causing our flora and fauna to decline.

These natural assets are one of the reasons why tourists flock to South Africa. They do not come here to look at the large buildings in our country, for they probably have an abundance of those in their own country. It is because of these natural assets that they come to our country. That is why it is our duty to protect and conserve these natural assets to the best of our ability.

In recent years tourism has become an important industry throughout the world and has made considerable contributions to the economy. Consequently it is as necessary to take care that the needs of this industry are not neglected as it is with any other important industry. The obvious recognition of the ability of tourism to earn foreign exchange by the Governments of the USA, the United Kingdom, Germany, Greece, Spain and Israel, emphasizes this fact.

In 1978, for the first time in the history of the tourist industry in South Africa, the number of holidaygoers—here I exclude visitors on business and students—who visited the Republic from other countries, exceeded the number of South Africans who went on holiday overseas. Approximately 503 000 foreigners vacationed in South Africa last year, while 490 000 South Africans were abroad for the same purpose; a gain of no fewer than 13 000 tourists for our country. In 1977 72 000 more South Africans travelled abroad on holiday than the number of foreigners who came to South Africa. Consequently the picture now has been neatly reversed. In 1976 the difference was 90 000 and in 1975 no less than 150 000. Consequently it can be stated that virtually all feeder markets have shown increases.

There are specific reasons for this. In the first place it must attributed to the constant and intensive marketing activities of the South African Tourist Corporation and the South African Airways. In the second place it is a fact that South Africa is an inexpensive country to visit in comparison with all other tourist destinations. In the third place it is true that South Africa has a great variety of exceptional attractions which allow the foreign tourist a wide choice while travelling around our country under favourable circumstances. In addition it is a fact that the problem which existed in 1976, viz. that South Africa was not a safe destination, hardly exists at present.

The success of the tourist industry in South Africa is closely bound up with the good co-operation between various bodies and deserves to be mentioned. I am referring to the excellent services rendered by the South African Railways and the South African Airways. In addition there are the provincial administrations, Satour and the Hotel Board that play a very important part in the provision of accommodation. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South referred to this, and so did the hon. member for Oudtshoorn.

I want to ask whether we have adequate provision. Films which are aimed at potential tourists and have been purchased by the department, are a very valuable aid in the marketing of South Africa’s tourist attractions and facilities. But there are certain problems which we shall have to attend to if we do not want to harm this fine industry.

A problem which is growing bigger as the demand increases and one which could possibly have a detrimental effect on our tourist traffic, is the poor condition of vehicles, buses in particular, that are used for the transportation of tourists. Many of these vehicles are old and it seems that maintenance and servicing do not always receive the attention they deserve. It happens too often that tourists are transported in vehicles which break down en route. This really does not create a good image at all.

A further problem which has also cropped up recently and which is apparently becoming worse, is the occurrence of assaults on and muggings of tourists. Incidents of this nature occur mainly in larger cities such as Cape Town and Johannesburg in the vicinity of large hotels in which tourists are staying. Tourists also experience a great deal of harassment from beggars who hang around in the vicinity of hotels and accost tourists with all kinds of tales of woe.

Finally, I want to say that, if we could eliminate these problems, it could only be to the benefit of this very fine industry of ours.

Mr.Chairman, I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Ladybrand on the very positive and informative contribution he has made. I also wish to associate myself with the hon. members who congratulated the hon. the Minister on his appointment We wish to tell him that we are grateful that he holds that office and that we know that this industry has a great future.

Today I wish to draw the attention to the value and importance of foreign tourists to South Africa. I believe that we are facing an explosion in respect of the number of tourists visiting South Africa We have already reached the situation where tourists are coming to South Africa for a second and sometimes even for a third time. They no longer merely tour from one hotel to another, but they come here to visit certain areas and to spend their entire holiday in a particular region or environment.

In the second place I wish to focus the spotlight—I am not going to elaborate on it—on deep-sea fishing as a tourist attraction. Deep-sea fishing is one of the attractions which, in my view, we have not yet fully investigated. I believe that herein lies a great future, since it will attract a certain type of tourist to South Africa that will be of great importance and value to us.

In the third place I appeal to the hon. the Minister to urge the hon. the Minister of Finance to allocate more funds to this department. For this year a mere R7 745 000 is being budgeted for this department. Even though it represents an increase of more than R800 000 on the amount allocated for the previous year, it remains a negligible amount if one takes into account what we are concerned with here. On glancing through the annual report and the Satour report it is very obvious to me that we do not always appreciate the economic value of foreign tourists to South Africa. Tourism is an industry that is developing at a very rapid pace. It also holds great possibilities for the future. It has been calculated that in 1976, there were 219 million international tourists and that they spent a record amount of 40 billion dollars. Tourism represents more than 4% of the world trade and nets a total of $950 billion. The question has occurred to me what share South Africa has in this astronomical amount of money that is being spent by the millions of people who travel all over the world. An hon. member has already pointed out that in 1978 we attracted 641 588 foreign tourists to our country, which represented an increase of 8,92% on the previous year. That shows us that we are heading for a new bumper year. We experienced this increase notwithstanding a negative Press and notwithstanding the long distance and the attendant high fares to come here from overseas. To many foreigners, South Africa is still synonymous with Africa. The internal unrest, insurrection and armed conflict in other African countries have, as a result of ignorance, an adverse effect on tourism. South Africa attracts most of its tourists from the United Kingdom, Europe and the Americas. A major portion of the tourists come from our neighbouring States.

Notwithstanding the negative factors already referred to, foreign tourists visiting South Africa during 1978 spent R330 million in the country. To that must be added the amount of R680 million which internal tourists spent in 1978. I cannot imagine a better investment than that. If we compare the foreign exchange earnings from tourism with those from other exports, hon. members will agree, I believe, that we do not always fully appreciate the enormous value of tourists from abroad. The hon. the Minister recently pointed out at a meeting that our foreign tourist industry was already the country’s fourth largest earner of foreign exchange. I wish to emphasize, however, that the value of foreign tourists to South Africa cannot be measured only in terms of money. I shall return to this point later.

Experts have calculated that in 1976, tourists spent an average amount of R393 per capita in South Africa. In 1977, the amount increased to an expenditure of R472 per capita If we can achieve the objective of attracting a million foreign tourists to South Africa by 1980, tourism will have become the second or third largest earner of foreign exchange.

There are negative aspects which influence tourism to South Africa. Some of these aspects such as the high travelling costs, for example, have already been mentioned. South Africa is far removed from the countries with the large populations that produce the most tourists. Other negative aspects are the adverse publicity in overseas news media, political attacks on South Africa, incredible ignorance about South Africa, and a lack of organized charter flights and package tours to and from the traditional tourist markets.

There are, however, a sufficient number of positive aspects to be able to market South Africa as a tourist country. The climate and the sunshine of our country are perhaps the major attractions. Our game reserves, beaches, modern cities and the relatively low tour costs, coupled with an excellent tourism infrastructure and all the variety we are able to offer, has made South Africa a country which can justify the slogan “A world in one country”. The department has already succeeded, in cooperation with Satour, in effectively countering the negative comment abroad. Successful promotion and marketing campaigns have been launched, with the result that we are heading for the best tourist year ever.

This situation makes it imperative that a much larger amount should be voted if we wish to benefit from this invaluable earner of foreign exchange. I believe the time has arrived for the Satour budget to be increased. Only then will it be possible to open more offices in overseas countries. The rising costs can only be met by an increase in the appropriation. The success of Satour is closely associated with successful marketing projects. It has been calculated that if we could effectively reach only 0,1% of the American people, it would ensure an additional 212 800 tourists for South Africa which would mean an additional of R77 million in foreign exchange for South Africa. I believe the present appropriation is too small to provide enough offices and an adequate establishment I think such a policy is short-sighted. In future we shall have to give serious attention to it. We cannot reach a potential market if we have insufficient funds. Our publicity will suffer as a result and our staff will have to work much harder than those of other countries. If we allocated more money to Satour, we shall attract the tourists. I have already stated that the value of foreign tourists cannot be measured in terms of money only. Every tourist is a self-appointed ambassador for South Africa. Every tourist who leaves this country, leaves it with a better understanding of our country and its people. He leaves here as a friend of our country. And we need friends badly. Tourists who have been here once, come again, and other tourists come here on the recommendation of friends and acquaintances who have already been here. Visitors to South Africa are in many cases the more affluent people, the opinion-formers and the people who have a wide sphere of influence. However, this does not detract from the fact that provision should also be made for the others. I therefore advocate that more funds should be made available for tourism so as to overcome the problems of effective marketing overseas. The meagre R6,8 million the department… [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister a matter which concerns our internal tourism. Hon. members on that side of the House have very largely been speaking on the question of people coming to South Africa from overseas. I entirely agree that they are very important people as they bring a great deal of money into our country. Furthermore, I think they go back home with a much more realistic view of what is actually happening in South Africa. Obviously, therefore, everybody whom we can encourage to come here, is an asset and a gain to us.

I should like to bring a matter to the hon. the Minister’s attention and ask him what he can do about it, viz. our own mountain and wilderness areas in South Africa. The physical control of these areas falls under the hon. the Minister of Forestry. I shall be raising this matter also under his Vote, because I have a specific problem I want to put to him. I should like to say to the hon. the Minister of Tourism that the internal tourism potential of the mountain areas of South Africa is absolutely immense and I do not think this potential is really being tapped at all. It is only lately that the Department of Forestry has opened up wilderness trails and wilderness areas. I think that as the Department of Forestry acquires more and more ground, we are going to face a very real problem. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that the mountains are in many cases the enemies of the tourist, because if one takes a chap from the middle of town and put him down in the middle of a mountain area all by himself and he has to find his way home, one will have a very distressed person on one’s hands. I think what we must ask ourselves—I should like the hon. the Minister to comment on this— is whether it is not time to encourage a sort of package tour whereby these mountain areas can be utilized safely. In any area in the Drakensberg there are valleys in which whole armies of people can lose themselves. When people are wandering around in the veld while they are not under control, one always has to contend with the problems of fires, people getting lost, accidents, snake bites, etc. I think we have to understand that when we are making available a very large tourist resource—which is going to become more and more important as time goes by—there has to be some kind of overall control, and this to my mind can be very well exercised by the Department of Forestry and the Department of Tourism. They can appoint qualified people to go into this matter and to market controlled tours. The hon. member for Bethlehem used a phrase which I thought was a very telling one. He spoke about “disciplined tours”. If ever one wants a place where disciplined tours are going to be required, it is in the mountain areas, because there people can cause such immense damage with uncontrolled fires, etc. I should like to put it to the hon. the Minister that we are going to see, whether we like it or not, new companies and new groups of people entering the market to market tours based on specific areas, areas which they will know well and which they can market through the normal channels of private enterprise. I think the Minister’s department will have to play a role either in allocating areas or in seeing that one area is not swamped while other areas are not visited.

I should like to go on from that subject and speak about the question of winter sport facilities in South Africa. I have spoken about this matter here before. Already the State of Qwaqwa is going into this matter and they are already erecting facilities such as snow machines and they are providing other methods for creating snow. These are things which might do something for us. Perhaps we can cut off a slice of this for ourselves in our own country. I was told some time ago that some 30 000 people leave this country yearly for the purpose of winter sports. They spend a considerable amount of money on this sport. I do not know what the latest figures are because there has been a bit of a downturn, fares have increased and Europe is becoming a place which is very expensive to visit It might well be that that figure has tailed off a little.

However, when one considers that the area of Oxbow and Lesotho is being developed quite intensively and that Qwaqwa, under our friend Mr. Kosie Pansegrouw, who was here before, are also going into this matter in an intensive way, I should like to put it to the hon. the Minister that in our mountain regions—and I mention in particular the area in the Eastern Cape, of Rhodes and Tina Head, where there appears to be the best confluent of climate, etc. for snow—we can develop our own facilities. A previous hon. member of this House, now Senator Webber, and I did a very careful tour right through the Drakensberg, in Natal, a couple of years ago, looking for areas where snow will lie. Hon. members who are familiar with the very limited area that is available for skiing in South Africa will know that one of the prime areas is in the Matroosberg, where there is just one valley where the snow will lie because the sun shines obliquely down that valley. It never shines directly onto the snow, so the snow will last right into September. If we experience a normal winter in the Cape, there is very good skiing there and it goes on for a very considerable period of time.

One never gets normal winters.

Well, if one gets an abnormal winter and one gets the usual rain in the Cape, then one gets a good snowfall there and the area is suitable for skiing for a long time. However, the point that I want to make is that we scouted very carefully right through the Drakensberg in Natal, and we were unable to establish any place there that looked as though it would be suitable for the sort of idea that we had in mind, namely the erection of skiing facilities, with snow machines and this kind of thing. I think that skiing is not only probably one of the most exciting and challenging sports in South Africa, but it is also an immense source of revenue. If one thinks of countries such as Austria and Switzerland one thinks of the millions of rands, dollars or francs that come in every year, simply because people want to go skiing. Therefore I think that the Department of Tourism could very well consider looking into this matter and investigate areas which are suitable for skiing. I think it was the year before last that a skiing championship was actually held in South Africa, in the area of Tina Head. I do not know what the snow was like, but I think it was a bit rough. I must say that those of us who have ski’d in Lesotho know that our snow tends to be a bit wet. It is not the same type of fine, crystalline snow that one encounters in Europe. Therefore one has to wax the skis very well to be able to ski on our snow. One finds that when one falls down one seems to go through the snow and land on the rocks. Therefore one has a few tender spots here and there after one has been skiing for a week or so.

That explains it

No, I did not say that one falls on one’s head. I do not think that the department or anybody else in South Africa has given real attention to what would be a very considerable potential source of tourism. Therefore I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he would not be prepared to launch an investigation into the situation here. There are ski clubs, etc. in South Africa which would be very willing to help him in this investigation. I think this is another dimension to the use of our wilderness and mountain areas and is obviously going to play a very important part in the tourist attractions which our own people are going to enjoy.

Mr. Chairman, I agree with everything said by the hon. member for Mooi River, in fact, I agree with everything said by hon. members who spoke before me, so much so that the more arguments, intelligent arguments, they advanced, the less remained of my original prepared speech. This is so to such an extent that at this stage I in fact find myself in a situation similar to the one in which two clergymen found themselves after being invited to visit a congregation that wanted to call them. One of them prepared himself and the other did not The one who had not prepared himself, stole the other one’s sermon. He delivered the sermon. Then the other one followed, displayed some initiative and said, “I shall show you what can be done” and he delivered the same sermon without the aid of his manuscript [Interjections.]

I wish to congratulate the hon. the Minister once again on the interest he has been displaying in this new department of his right from the outset I believe that this augurs well for the future of this department and for tourism in general.

In the past the feeling prevailed that tourism as an industry was, to a certain extent, of secondary importance and consequently those who participated in it felt to a certain extent that they were being treated rather shabbily. This view contributed to the general belief that the Republic of South Africa was not interested in mass tourism as encountered and practised in parts of Europe and in the rest of the Western world.

This year, however, we have suddenly had a different situation in South Africa. In the first place we have experienced a plus factor regarding visiting tourists, all on account of the large numbers of Argentinians who have suddenly discovered this potential of South Africa. So we find Captour stating in its annual report that tourism, next to gold, could be the largest earner of foreign exchange which could be developed in South Africa. All of a sudden one finds that the hotels in the Cape Peninsula that were virtually empty a year ago and were struggling to make an existence, are full all of a sudden and that one cannot obtain accommodation. All of a sudden one finds that the four-star and five-star hotels are full and that a congress of the Handelsinstituut had to move to Bellville a month or two ago and had to be postponed for a week, not because Bellville was not quite so good—it is not a bad place at all—but because there was not sufficient accommodation available in the local four-star and five-star hotels.

If we now look for the explanation for this and try and ascertain to what this sudden change or breakthrough is to be ascribed, I want to say that this department, Satour and the tourist industry itself, have been doing the same good work, have been doing the same job of publicity and have been displaying the same initiative and drive over the years. All of a sudden, however, the door opens and a miracle takes place. My explanation for that is, firstly, that the constant endeavours of the department have ultimately been rewarded with success after all the years of hard work. Secondly, I believe the magic formula is that we have been discovered; not that we have discovered the formula. In the past we might have been concentrating too much on our wild life, elephants, lions, etc., nature in its unspoiled state, which are all beautiful, but which the rest of Africa is able to offer just as well as we are but which it is able to offer over a shorter distance and therefore, in the final analysis also cheaper.

Now, with a more sophisticated presentation and with a different approach by the department, we have entered into a new phase. What do we find with the Argentinians? In their country they are experiencing an inflation rate of 100% or more at the present time. That is why they are coming here. In spite of that, we still find that they want four-star or five-star accommodation. They want only the best, and air transport and the Blue Train are essentials. Now the question arises why they are still coming here in large numbers. My information in that regard is that for women, South Africa is the most wonderful place to buy diamonds, gold and jewellery, clothing and other materials. I even find that motor cycles are being purchased in South Africa to be taken back to South America. It is all still worth while, because it pays the tourists’ fares from South America to South Africa, because if those articles had been bought there, they would have cost that much more. Therefore, the potential exists and we merely have to develop it.

For that reason I want to address three requests to the hon. the Minister. The first request is to have the department undertake an investigation at an international level into the question of countries with which we should be able to compete for South American and similar tourists on the same level, so that we may be able to draw a comparison in order to establish where our greatest potential lies and on what countries we are to concentrate most.

In the second place I request that we emphasize the fact, as it has already been stated here by other hon. members, that we are so inexpensive, and that we publicize that in a positive sense. This research will cost money. However, we should be prepared to make this investment since we shall be able, if we make a success of it by making sufficient money available now, to obtain a very high return in dividends.

In the third place I request the hon. the Minister to concentrate our marketing and presentation of tourism on mass tourism instead of merely on nature in its unspoiled state. As far as mass tourism is concerned, I suggest that we should not concentrate only on the select and wealthy tourist who wants nothing but four-star or five-star hotel treatment. It is indeed the one-star, two-star and three-star hotels that are suffering. When we consult the annual report and take note of the number of hotels, we see that there are 1 104 one-star hotels, 257 two-star hotels and 63 three-star hotels in South Africa, whereas there are altogether 20 four- and five-star hotels. It is the one-, two- and three-star hotels that are suffering. It is our inland holiday resorts that are suffering. That is the holiday potential we should try and develop. We should also try to attract foreign tourists to them.

I want to congratulate the department. I specifically wish to refer to countries of the Orient. I believe that the scenery and the space we have in South Africa will be a major attraction to the European and particularly to the Oriental with their over-populated areas. In this regard it is perhaps interesting and correct to make specific reference to that red-headed girl from Krugersdorp who works for Satour in Japan, speaks Japanese fluently and is so attractive and so… [Interjections.]… well, I did not mean it that way… [Interjections.]… popular among the Japanese that she is rendering sterling service to South Africa.

Furthermore, I should like the hon. the Minister to consider establishing a pool to which the tourist industry can make voluntary contributions in order to arrange a joint advertising campaign and to attract a sufficient number of participants. If we can do that, we can consider operating not only inland package deals with which the hon. member for Mooi River dealt, but the same kind of package deal on an international basis. Consideration could then be given to a reduced air fare, and hotel costs and other expenses could be added to the price of the air ticket There could be savings on all those expenses. I believe that if we could succeed in doing that, we could progress a long way towards reducing our initial costs of attracting tourists so that we may have a larger volume of mass traffic to South Africa. We shall experience problems in this regard. We have the problem that one cannot bring mixed foreign groups into the country on the same aircraft I believe that if the hon. the Minister is prepared to intercede with the hon. the Minister of Transport, it would go a long way towards helping us to accommodate those people.

Secondly, one of the problems is that private initiative is not entitled to make block bookings at the Kruger National Park and other places of interest. I believe that this, too, may be a factor to which the hon. the Minister can give attention so that the private sector may be able to make block bookings at those places.

Finally I just want to point out that in spite of the fact that everybody goes to Johannesburg until they have seen Cape Town, Cape Point still remains the place in the whole of the Republic which attracts the largest number of tourists per annum.

Mr. Chairman, the object of the Department of Tourism is to develop the tourist industry by encouraging people from elsewhere to visit the Republic and to tour in this country. While we are discussing the Tourism Vote, we have the opportunity to assess the activities of this department and to ascertain whether the department is achieving its object. It is evident from the annual report that the department has employed a great many imaginative methods to achieve its object What has impressed me in the annual report as far as the methods are concerned, is the following: The documents distributed by the Department of Tourism overseas, were read by approximately 315 million people. Films on South Africa were shown on 28 676 occasions. In the USA alone, advertisements were shown by 76 television stations every week. They were viewed by millions. The question whether the department has achieved its object is, to my mind, answered by the following figures. These are the figures of the tourist profits after the past five years, and the foreign exchange inflow of R330 million. Therefore the department has achieved its object to my mind, and the department and the hon. the Minister are to be congratulated on their excellent annual report.

I now wish to come to an aspect which was raised by the hon. member for Kempton Park as well. This is the question of tourists as ambassadors. There is a saying that before people criticize South Africa, they should first come here and see the true state of affairs for themselves. I agree with that saying. Now I also pose the question, what greater potential does our country have to put across the truth in connection with South Africa than by means of the tourists visiting our country. In 1978 alone, 640 000 foreigners visited South Africa. Everyone who visits South Africa goes back home and talks about it. In this way, he influences other people. In terms of a certain formula, every tourist influences eight other people as soon as he arrives back home. In terms of the same formula, more than five million people abroad were influenced in connection with South Africa in 1978 alone. In terms of this formula, 30 million people have been influenced in this way during the past five years.

Tourism as a means of stating South Africa’s side of the matter, could hardly be over-emphasized. I could hardly think of a better method. In view of this and in view of the immense importance of tourists as ambassadors, I appeal to the public of South Africa and to everybody involved in tourism, to do everything in their power to make tourists from overseas feel at home in South Africa; to accord them even more than the traditional South African hospitality, so as to ensure in this way that our guests from overseas will experience the truth in connection with South Africa. After all, that is what they are here for. We have to ensure that they carry that message throughout the world. Our motto should be: “A satisfied tourist is an ambassador for South Africa.”

In connection with tourist resources which South Africa can tap, the hon. member for Vasco referred to South America. It is a fact that the number of tourists from Argentina has increased by 126%. This is a major achievement. It is also a fact that people from South America come to South Africa to buy on a large scale. I believe, however, that we should exploit the Latin-American market even further. I am aware of the fact that the department is already doing a great deal in this regard. However, the potential of the entire Latin-America is still as a tourist resource virtually untapped. South America has many benefits to offer South Africa, not only in the field of tourism, but also in various other fields. For that reason it is imperative that the Department of Tourism continue and extend its excellent pioneering work in order to identify the colossal South American continent with South Africa to a greater extent.

There is still another place, however, which, I believe, should be tapped with a view to attracting tourists to South Africa. That is Portugal and the island of Madeira. More than 600 000 Portuguese are living in South Africa. In fact, they form our largest immigrant community. By nature the Portuguese are very fond of their families and they like visiting one another. So I cannot understand the low tourist figure from Portugal and Madeira to South Africa. As against the 600 000 Portuguese living in South Africa, we only had approximately 6 600 Portuguese visitors to South Africa. Portugal is only eighth on our list of visitors to South Africa. Consequently I feel that something should be done about the matter.

We should consider opening a Satour office in Lisbon and also to endeavour to tap the tourist market in Portugal and Madeira.

In conclusion I want to say that I agree with the hon. member for Kempton Park when he says that in view of the immense importance of South Africa’s tourist industry, it has become essential that we take another look at the budget as regards this department. I am convinced that during the coming financial year the hon. the Minister will obtain more funds so that we may be able to extend this industry.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. members for their interest and participation in the debate. I should like to begin with a few general remarks, and I can assure hon. members that I shall also reply to all the individual points in the course of my observations.

I should just like to say at the outset that it is really a great pleasure and a privilege for me to be associated with this department. The hon. the Prime Minister did me a very great favour by making me responsible for this department not only because of the interesting activities of the department but especially because of the small team of dedicated, motivated officials who do their best every day in the various branches, such as the department Satour and the Hotel Board, to promote the interests of South Africa. If one only takes the trouble of reading the three reports, i.e. the departmental report, the report of Satour and the report of the Hotel Board, one realizes that the officials involved are people who really command respect With only a few million rand, this small group of people achieves these splendid results for us all. Therefore I should like to express my thanks at this stage to the Secretary and the other senior officials, also for having helped me over the past few months to find my feet in the department, while still continuing to do their own work.

The hon. member for Bethlehem, the hon. member for Ladybrand and others referred in general to the fine progress made in tourism over the past year. Just allow me to emphasize a few aspects of this. For the first time since 1975, we had a fine increase in tourist traffic again in 1978. It rose by 8,92% as against 1977. There are a few aspects which have not been emphasized yet and which I should like to highlight for the record. As has already been said, there was a gratifying increase in the number of tourists from a variety of countries. Let me identify a few of these. From Austria, we had an increase of 28,42% last year; from France, 13,18%; from Italy, 21,7%; from Portugal, 22,63%; from Spain, 28,4%; and from Israel, 22,17%. There was a similar increase in respect of various other countries. With regard to the USA, Canada and Australia, too, there was a splendid revival. A record number of tourists came to South Africa from Argentina. The final figure last year was a 126% increase over 1977. Those people spend very good money in South Africa.

What about Paraquay?

The number that comes from Argentina is small compared with the total. However, they make a material contribution to our economy. The number of visitors from India was small, but it was nevertheless a record. From Japan we had an increase of 13%. Therefore there was a significant increase in the number of tourists from all over the world who visited our country.

Several reasons have been advanced for this fine progress we have had. I want to confirm a few of these. One of the hon. members pointed out that South Africa was a cheap country compared with other countries. According to a recent survey by the London Financial Times, in which 66 world cities were compared, the hotels of Johannesburg had the tenth lowest tariff in the world for bed and breakfast Another hon. member pointed out that South Africa was a safe country and that this had also contributed to the rise in tourist traffic. It is indeed the best advertisement for South Africa, in spite of all the criticism which is expressed against us, that so many thousands of tourists are nevertheless prepared to visit South Africa. A tourist does not go to a country which is unsafe. We have no finer advertisement, we have no more convincing proof of the stability and the economic progress of our country than the record number of tourists who visit our country. As I have said, a tourist will certainly not visit a country which he does not consider safe. He will not endanger his life and he will not endanger the money for which he worked hard under such circumstances.

I wish to emphasize another aspect, one which has not been sufficiently stressed by hon. members, namely that tourism is not only of great material value to our country. Apart from the monetary value, there is the fact that visitors to South Africa have an opportunity to gain first-hand knowledge of the conditions here. They can judge for themselves whether the information presented to them by the overseas media—and by our media as well—creates the right image of our country. My experience is that almost without exception, tourists tell us that after a visit to South Africa or after a short stay in South Africa, they had a completely different image of South Africa from the one they had when they came here. They leave South Africa with a favourable impression of the country. It is of the utmost importance that everyone in South Africa who meets a foreign tourist should make a point of making that visitor feel that he is welcome in South Africa and would like to return to our country. If we do that, we may expect every tourist to South Africa to act as an unofficial ambassador of South Africa when he returns to his country. In this connection, however, I want to emphasize yet another positive aspect—especially for the benefit of the hon. member for Durban Central—namely that we are growing with tourism. We are not being isolated.

I should like to emphasize a few aspects with regard to our international membership of international bodies. In the field of tourism it appears not only that the Republic of South Africa is acceptable to the international community, but also that we take an active part in the activities of international tourist bodies and are in fact very welcome there. This gratifying international acceptance and recognition of South Africa in the sphere of tourism arises not only from the special attraction of our country because of its attractive qualities and sound infrastructure for foreign tourists, but especially—and I should like to emphasize this—from the highly professional way in which all facets of South Africa’s tourist product is marketed abroad. In this field, we are accepted in the international tourist market as one of the leading countries. South Africa is ranked third in the world as far as the professional presentation of its products in the international community is concerned. This is according to standards laid down by international bodies abroad and not by us. As far as the competence of our professional presentation and our total image are concerned, we occupy the third place in the world, according to this survey which has been made.

It is very important to the Department of Tourism and to Satour that we should have these international ties, especially in view of three factors. The first factor is the tremendous competition between tourist countries in the international tourist market. The second factor is the outstanding opportunities which it offers of keeping our product under the eyes of those in the international sphere who are able to support our promotion and marketing efforts, and thirdly, there is the golden opportunity which it offers us of keeping abreast of developments in international tourism. In this connection I should like to tell hon. members that the chairman of Satour, the director of Satour and other senior officials are constantly labouring to keep us internationally involved. It is due to the high standard of our officials and the splendid example which they set that we enjoy this international recognition. I want to refer to a few of these international bodies. Firstly, there is the American Society of Travel Agents. This organization, which is known as Asta and has its headquarters in New York, was joined by Satour during the ’fifties.

It is today regarded as the strongest industrial organization of its kind in the world. Apart from its more than 15 000 members in the travelling industry in the USA, Asta has an international membership of 110 countries, including the Republic of South Africa. Our acceptance in these circles and the co-operation we enjoy leave nothing to be desired. South Africa is represented by Satour at the world congress of this society every year. Apart from our exhibit, special meetings are also arranged with promising tour operators, and interviews are held with travel journalists on radio and TV. I may point out that representatives of 11 Astra branches in various parts of the USA have already visited South Africa. Each of these visits has been of great benefit to South Africa.

I also wish to refer to our membership of the Universal Federation of Travel Agents Association, also known as Uftaa. Satour was admitted as a member of Uftaa in 1976. This may be regarded as a very important international forum for consultation and for the promotion of co-operation in the field of tourism. Its headquarters are in Brussels and it has more than 24 000 members, representing more than 70 countries from eight parts of the world. Apart from liaison and consultation with like-minded people at a high level, Uftaa offers the opportunity, as Asta does, of participating in tourist exhibitions every year, where South Africa’s products are prominently displayed. I would like to say that Satour participated in the Uftaa congress in Madrid in November 1978, and won first prize for its exhibit at the Uftaa congress. The 80 other countries which also exhibited there included the USA, Britain and even Russia. Satour walked away with the first prize. The Satour stall was also visited by the most important people who attended that congress. I think this is a splendid achievement.

I wish to refer to a third body, the Association of Conference Executives, known as ACE International. The S.A. Congress Bureau of the Department of Tourism was admitted as a member of ACE International during 1978. This body has its headquarters in London, and its membership includes several hundred firms that are active in the congress industry. In this case, too, annual meetings and exhibitions offer excellent opportunities for acquainting people with the S.A. congress product in particular. Furthermore, the body’s publications, which are widely circulated in congress circles, offer good opportunities for introducing ourselves.

I now wish to refer to another body, International Congress and Convention Association, known as ICCA. The department’s S.A. Congress Bureau became a member of ICCA at the beginning of 1979. This dynamic international congress body, which has its headquarters in Amsterdam, has several hundred members. They are all prominent in the congress industry. Its members come from 67 different countries.

I gladly refer hon. members to our report, especially to page 8 and the subsequent pages, which deal with the importance of the congress market to us in South Africa. The ICCA, which has a modern computerized system, is constantly making available extremely valuable information about the activities of international congresses all over the world, information which can be followed up by members and by us as well. Periodic meetings provide for liaison on a high level. Last year a number of prominent ICCA council members met in South Africa, and the world president of this body also visited our country.

I could go on in this vein. I wish to refer to our involvement in Stuttgart, the holiday market at Urrecht, the Reisemark in München, our activities in Paris, the World Travel Fair in Seattle, and the International Tourist Exhibition in Berlin. I just want to furnish a little more information about this body. The International Tourist Exhibition in Berlin is one of the biggest exhibitions of its kind in the world. Almost 800 exhibitors from 80 countries took part in this. Almost 10 000 travel agents from all over the world attended this exhibition this year. Almost 130 000 consumers also visited the tourist exhibition. South Africa was also there. Our Secretary was the chairman and other officials of Satour, including the director, were also there. Twenty-five South African representatives of the industry, together with Satour, staffed the South African stall, for this special occasion in Berlin. Business was very successful indeed, especially during the workshop which was held there and to which 40 top European tour operators were specially invited by Satour. Therefore I can present to hon. members a fine picture of participation, not of isolation.

In 1976, 1977, 1978 and 1979, there was splendid international participation, which was made possible by the Department of Tourism. In other words, we are moving outwards; we are not moving backwards. In this connection I also wish to confirm that a decision was taken some time ago to open an office in Chicago. This office will be opened at the end of this month. We have had a Satour official from New York in Chicago for the past three years. He operated from there. However, the promotional activities and the interest have grown to such an extent that we have felt obliged to open a full office in Chicago as well. The whole Chicago area, as well as the Midwest, is supplying not only tourists at the moment, but also a large number of specialized tour groups, especially in the field of agriculture. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South was right; South Africa sells like a Rolls-Royce. When the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South said that, it almost seemed to me that the hon. members of the PFP were beaming for a change. In South Africa we really have a Rolls Royce to sell. The farmers of the USA think so. In addition, this is the region in the USA where the biggest motivating organizations and congress organizers are found. We expect this area to become one of our biggest sources of tourism from the USA.

I should like to announce, furthermore, that we have decided that a Satour office will be opened in Israel. This has often been considered. However, funds for doing this have only been obtained this year. The preparations have been made and it is expected that this office will be opened in Tel Aviv on 1 August. Last year, a record number of Israelis visited South Africa, namely 7 300; We expect that with active marketing, this figure will exceed 10 000 in the near future. Last week the Secretary to the department visited Israel, and he tells me that tour operators in Israel take a special interest in South Africa. He also had talks with his colleagues there, and everyone welcomes this step. We are welcome in Israel and welcome to do business with them. On the other hand, Israel has had a tourist promotion office in Johannesburg for a number of years. Both the S.A. Airways and E1 A1 welcome this office of ours in Israel. This office will not only develop the market in Israel—and I think it may be possible to integrate with this the idea of the hon. member for Jeppe; one can consider it—but will also concentrate on the promotion of triangular tourism. To give one example: Argentina/South Africa/Israel. An alternative: Holland/Israel/South Africa. A further alternative: New York/Israel/South Africa. A final example: Israel/South Africa/Australia This just gives one an idea of the wide scope of such an office. If we can negotiate even more favourable air fares in this connection, this office will be a great asset to us. If it is successful, it may mean that the frequency of flights between Johannesburg and Israel can definitely be increased.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

The interim report on the first phase of the tourism survey which the Department of Tourism commissioned has been completed. This survey, which is being conducted among foreign visitors to South Africa, is aimed at obtaining reliable information on aspects such as attitudes towards South Africa as a tourist country, length of stay, expenditure, etc. Fieldwork for this survey was started in December 1978 and was completed at the end of April 1979. The interim report is for the period 15 December 1978 to 31 January 1979. During this period an effective sample of 2 752 departing visitors was obtained at Jan Smuts and D. F. Malan Airports and at Beit Bridge.

The following interesting facts emerged from the interim report: 35% of all respondents stated that this was their first visit to South Africa. 97% of the Argentinian visitors visited South Africa for the first time. 87% of foreign visitors came to South Africa for holiday purposes, and 50% of the total sample stated that visiting friends and relatives was their main purpose for coming to South Africa 77,5% stated that the previous time they came to South Africa it was also for holiday purposes. This is lower than the 87% previously mentioned.

It may therefore be concluded from these facts that foreign visitors who come to South Africa for non-holiday purposes tend to return to South Africa for a holiday. 88,8% claimed that they intend visiting South Africa again “to see more of the country” and 17,1% stated that they intend visiting South Africa again for reasons of business. The average length of stay per visitor is approximately 19 days. This, to my knowledge, must be the highest in the world. Quality rating of hotels was “good” to “excellent” as regards three, four and five-star hotels. The latter grade of hotel received the highest praise, and one and two-star hotels were rated “fair” to “good” respectively. Also interesting is that no respondent recorded any hotel as being “poor”. I think that is a very good record for South African hotels compared to some hotels overseas. The rating of costs in South Africa was also very favourable. 67,2% rated accommodation as reasonable or inexpensive, 69,5% rated food and beverages as being reasonable and inexpensive and 82,3% regarded shopping as reasonable and inexpensive.

The full picture of the total expenditure will only be available when the final report is in hand. However, the interim report states that the average personal expenditure per visitor amounts to approximately R523, excluding international airfare expenditure. The average expenditure in 1974, when the department did its first survey was R313 per person. Expenditure by individual tourists therefore increased by 67%.

Following this the department made some other interesting investigations and I want to comment on the project which we call “the product within-the-product”. We already know, from previous research projects, that over a 12 month period about 35% of all foreign visitors coming to South Africa have been here before—in other words, repeat traffic. These repeaters are mainly business traffic and visits to family and friends. We also know that over the last couple of years a new trend has developed in world tourism in the sense that people, particularly repeat-visitors, are no longer interested in country-hopping or in “doing” a whole country, but wish to visit a single destination to spend a relaxed and leisurely holiday.

That is very wise.

Coupled with this there is the growing tendency the world over to market single destinations, like Miami or California as opposed to the United States, or Algarve as opposed to the whole of Portugal. The Department of Tourism and Satour are convinced that South Africa could attract tens of thousands more repeat-visitors a year if we too were to adopt this marketing approach. At the same time it could also give first-timers who do not necessarily want to do the whole of South Africa the opportunity to concentrate on a specific area or areas. They therefore looked at South Africa critically to see whether there were segments of the product which could be lifted on the international marketing platform. To qualify for this an area must have all the basic marketable ingredients that tourism demand. Firstly, it must have sufficient accommodation of acceptable standard. Secondly, it must have a good road system and sufficient transportation facilities, such as car-hire, caravan-hire, etc. Thirdly, the area must be linked directly to international flights. Fourthly, it must have an agreeable climate and, lastly, it is very important that it should have an intensive variety of attractions and possibilities to keep the tourist busy for a couple of days.

Three areas in South Africa were identified as definitely meeting these requirements and on that basis qualifying to be isolated for marketing abroad as single destinations. These areas are the larger eastern Transvaal area, the whole of Natal, and the coastal area from Cape Town to Port Elizabeth. It was necessary to give these areas trade-names. The names decided upon are Bushveld Transvaal, Leisureland Natal and Coastal Cape. [Interjections.] In a venture such as this it is of course important to have the full cooperation of the local community, and particularly of the private sector branches of the industry. The Secretary for Tourism and senior officials of the department and Satour have already visited all three these areas and discussed the strategy with private sector representatives.

Mr. Chairman, I gather the hon. the Minister has said that a Coastal Cape region will be advertised and will run from the Cape to Port Elizabeth. I want to ask him whether he cannot possibly include the area from Port Elizabeth to the Kei. It is not a very large area and there are some of the most beautiful coastal strips along the Cape coastal belt in that area. [Interjections.]

I can assure the hon. member that we shall seriously consider this. It is not impossible to extend the area now. At present it runs from Port Elizabeth down to the Western Cape. I can, however, assure the hon. member that it does not mean that East London is being excluded totally. His suggestion will be considered. [Interjections.]

I want to continue by saying that I am glad that in all areas this plan was enthusiastically received and full support was promised. The idea is that the department and Satour will provide the basic marketing tools by means of colour brochures, posters, accommodation guides and road maps. The private sector should supplement these with more detailed publications covering their facilities and services. We also believe that this concept can successfully be applied within South Africa as far as domestic tourism is concerned in order to stimulate movement to areas other than those normally visited and in this way achieve a better distribution of movement over time and place. This scheme will shortly be launched in the target market areas abroad and will start with all English-speaking and German-speaking countries. We are confident that excellent results will follow. May I just conclude by saying that Satour will of course continue to market South Africa as a whole in their areas of operation.

*I am very optimistic that this scheme will be very successful in attracting tourists to South Africa.

I should also like to express a few thoughts about domestic tourism. There is a continuous increase in the internal movement of South Africans, too, and the demand for facilities and services is steadily growing. Unfortunately, there are still valley periods during certain times of the year which have to be filled, but at other times there is an over-demand. Mr. Chairman, I recently made an analysis—and you will find this very interesting—of the Free State and Northern Cape area. When we compare the tourist attractions there with those in other areas, we find that there are limitations in those areas. By the successful marketing of tourism, the smallest towns in those areas, such as Bethulie and other villages, have succeeded in making their holiday resorts so successful that in peak periods they are even able to turn down reservations of less than seven days. This shows what marketing can do for domestic tourism in parts of our country which are not even regarded as the strongest tourist areas, such as the Western Cape, the Natal coastal area and others. Therefore the domestic position is also improving phenomenally and tourism is steadily growing.

With constant actions undertaken by the department, such as the product-within-the-product action to which I have already referred, I hope that it will be possible to spread this movement more and more evenly. However, I am not quite so sure that we shall be able to eliminate all the valleys in the process. The private sector—I am very glad to be able to say this—is making an ever larger contribution, and one sincerely appreciates this. However, we must bear in mind that the domestic market is an ever-growing one and is going to present an ever-growing challenge to both the public and the private sector organizations and bodies.

In this connection, I am reminded of a point raised by one of the hon. members. I think it was the hon. member for Lady-brand. He referred to the many thousands of young people who leave our schools and universities every year and who make their own holiday arrangements. Here I am thinking, too, of the number of South Africans who did not go abroad over the past three years. We put that number at almost 244 000. That represents the decline in the traffic abroad. These people are now holidaying in South Africa, and provision must be made for them and for others.

I am very grateful to be able to say that the National Tourist Bureaux of the department do very good work in helping, advising and informing these prospective domestic holidaymakers, and in giving them interesting and informative publications about attractions and facilities inside our country. Proof of this is the growing number of people who visit our tourist bureaux. Between 1977 and 1978, for example, their numbers grew from 122 000 to 175 000, an increase of more than 42%.

In this connection we also have what we call a national “drive-in information service”. This takes the form of caravans which we equip as tourist bureaux at certain strategic places, such as Middelburg (Transvaal), Beaufort West, Swinburne and Kroonstad in the Free State.

Why are you replying to matters that have not been raised at all?

There we have had quite interesting experiences. These tourist bureaux attracted quite a lot of tourists, until the traffic inspectors decided to have coffee with us. As long as they were there drinking coffee, all the tourists drove past! Only when the traffic inspectors had left, did the tourists approach us again for information. But everyone is welcome. I am just mentioning this by the way.

In the same connection, I should like to make a few remarks arising from what the hon. member for Oudtshoorn said about our regional committees. Our regional committees were supposed to play a very important role with regard to the promotion of tourism within South Africa. They have been in existence for quite a long time. They date back to 1964, when they were established in terms of an authority delegated to the provinces by the Minister, and were subsequently returned to the department. In the end, they really continued on an informal basis. There used to be 22 of these regional committees. At the moment, there are at most 10 to 12 that are active, and only a few of the 10 to 12 really serve their purpose. A survey which we made showed that the existing system, the system to which the hon. member referred, had largely had its day. At the instructions of my predecessor, the department undertook a very intensive and careful inquiry into the whole system of regional committees, and submitted to me a detailed report on the present position. After considering the report and all the facts, it was clear to me that we had to find another means of promoting regional tourism, especially because it played such an important part in South Africa in tourist advertising and other aspects. To enable a system of regional committees to function really efficiently, so that this important aspect of tourism may also receive its due, the department and I have worked out a few ideas which I should like to set out here. If we apply these ideas, I think we shall be able to place the whole system on a much sounder basis and greatly to stimulate our tourism. In the first place, it is the intention that the number of regions should be reduced to eight, perhaps one or two more. Our country is not so large that each area needs its own committee. On the local level, there are publicity associations or tourist information offices in many cities and towns. In the Free State, for example, I saw many tourist information offices identified by the big “I” sign. So the local instrument is there; it only has to be activated and motivated.

In our opinion, the executive committees in each of the regions should consist of nine members, i.e. three members from the public sector, three from the private sector and two from the head office of the Department of Tourism. The remaining one will be the regional director of the local National Tourist Bureau, which falls under the Department of Tourism. What is also important is that the secretariat of each regional committee will be provided by the National Tourist Bureau of the region concerned. As far as the meetings are concerned, I believe that one meeting should be held every year of all the interested parties in a region, at which the six members from the public and private sectors would also be elected.

Secondly, we believe that the executive committee of each region should meet at least twice a year, and that there should be a national meeting every year to which two members can be delegated from every region. This national meeting will then take place under the chairmanship of the Secretary for Tourism. Finally, I believe that the objectives of the regional committees should be uniform and similar to those existing at the moment.

What are the advantages of such a system? Let me enumerate the advantages. Firstly, the regional committees will be directly involved in the activities of the department, so they will not be independent of the department. Therefore they will be directly involved with people who are professionally trained for the work. Furthermore, agendas will be more substantial and discussions will be more purposeful, precisely because of the involvement of the department. The executive committees will be involved in domestic as well as foreign tourist marketing actions. Expenses such as travelling and attendance allowances will be saved, and the money can then be used for publicity purposes. Furthermore, local bodies will be able to liaise with the department through the executive and vice versa. What is important is that when decisions have been taken, actions can be initiated. It will no longer be the position that nothing comes of it, as sometimes happens at the moment Local efforts, such as beautifying towns, putting up road signs, tarring roads, etc., can be dealt with on the local level. Furthermore, liaison with the principal industrial sectors, such as Fedhasa, Asata, Satsa and others, will be facilitated. What is also very important—and this is something which does not exist at the moment—is that direct contact with Satour, and through it with the travelling industry abroad, will be of particular benefit to tourists visiting South Africa. In addition, we plan to have a two-monthly news bulletin which will also contain reports on the activities of regional committees.

We intend to send particulars of this new system as I have explained it tonight to the existing active regional committees. It will then be discussed with them at the first opportunity after this session of Parliament and implemented as soon as possible after that. I shall make a point of ensuring that all the various regional committees are contacted—if possible I shall do it personally—so that this new idea may be submitted to them and their co-operation may be obtained. I am sure that we shall receive their co-operation so that we may implement this new scheme. I am fully confident that it will be a great success. We have the necessary statutory authority and I am convinced that we shall then have a solid regional set-up which will be able to proceed with the promotion of tourism in a purposeful manner. I just wanted to mention these few aspects, arising from the ideas expressed by the hon. member for Oudtshoorn.

Finally, I want to refer to training. The tourist industry in South Africa is becoming more and more important to our country’s economy. The expenditure by domestic as well as foreign tourists in South Africa is already close on R1 000 million a year. Our income from foreign tourism already occupies the fifth place, next to gold, as far as foreign exchange is concerned. Furthermore, there is not a single section of the tourist industry which is not affected by this expansion. That is why I consider it so important and essential that we should have specialized staff in each of the sectors serving tourism. If there is a weakness in one of the sectors, it is bound to affect the others as well. If hotel service is poor, or a tour guide is unsatisfactory, or a bus breaks down in the middle of nowhere, or a tour programme is too tiring, it spoils the tourist’s whole tour. We must take care that the training of staff is commensurate with the development and progress of tourism.

In this connection, I immediately want to express my appreciation for the excellent work already being done at our technicons, by the Hotel Board and in the private sector, but unfortunately, this is not enough. If tourism continues at the same pace in the next few years, we shall come to a stage where the industry will not be able to cope, precisely because of the shortage of trained staff and professionalism. For many years, it was traditional to recruit skilled staff abroad to come and work in our hotels, but this is becoming more and more difficult For the past seven years, we have been training about 60 students every year at the Witwatersrand Technicon for obtaining the National Diploma in Hotel Management while I understand that there is a need on management level for about 300 a year, just to provide for retirement death an emmigration. The fault does not lie with the South Africans. There are enough South Africans who are interested, because according to my information, 220 South Africans applied for admission to this course last year, while only 60 can be trained. As far as the training of other hotel staff is concerned, the position is even more alarming. The hotel industry needs more than 1 000 trained staff every year, just on the middle-management and skilled levels. We cannot supply this training through our existing institutions. Then I am not even talking about the needs of all the other non-hotel sectors such as institutional and industrial catering or restaurants.

There is another aspect which I want to mention. This is the unsatisfactory position with regard to tour guides. Every week I receive complaints from South Africans and foreigners about our tour guide services. I concede that we have excellent guides who do their best. However, there are also a number of tour guides who are employed and who seem to relish telling undesirable jokes about our various race groups or who show peculiar subjectivity in criticizing and running down everything the Government does. I expect objectivity from tour guides, as is in fact the case in all other countries. A further question occurs to me. This is whether a bus driver can act as a tour guide at the same time. His first priority…

Have you ever heard what a London taxi driver says about his Government? Just keep your sense of humour!

The same as the Progs say about us. His first priority is to get his passengers safely to their destination. [Interjections.]

†A London taxi driver is not a tour guide. The hon. member knows it very well.

Just keep a sense of humour.

No, there is nothing wrong with me.

*If a bus driver has to act as a tour guide at the same time, he simply cannot do justice to his work as a tour guide. I am consulting the hon. the Minister of Transport about this matter.

Order! Hon. members must not converse so loudly.

Furthermore, I should like to report to this House that the advisory committee appointed in terms of the Tour Guide Act has appointed a working group, and that the working group has already met several times to discuss all aspects of the formal and practical training of the proposed different categories of tour guides, as well as to draw up draft syllabi. All the indications are that the various courses will be offered at the various technicons from as early as 1980.

In the travel agency industry, too, some initial difficulties are being experienced in respect of training. In this connection, the private sector offers three courses at our technicons. However, the problem is that, as far as I know, travel agents cannot be compelled to follow any of these courses. Any person can start a travel agency today without having any qualifications for it In this connection I may point out that the department is currently having talks with Asata in connection with a Bill to be introduced in this House next year to compel travel agents to obtain licences. It is likely that the training of travel agents will fall within the scope of the provisions of this proposed Bill. It is quite clear to me that we have a great need for professionalism in the tourist industry. The present position is giving rise to great concern, and I am going to exert myself to clear up this aspect immediately. It is probable, in my opinion, that a strong case can even be made out for offering tourism training up to graduate level at universities. The specialized nature of a large number of sectors in the industry will justify such a course. I shall actively promote this in conversations with our universities in this connection.

I now want to refer to a few matters raised by hon. members. Because he did not have a turn to speak, the hon. member for Constantia sent me a note in which he requested me to give attention to something affecting his constituency, namely the proposed development of a large hyper market in his area. I just want to tell him that I appreciated his letter, but I do not think this is the occasion for me to comment on that. He will understand why I am unable to comment on it now.

The hon. member for Green Point made a positive contribution. I want to refer to the matter he raised in connection with advertising abroad. I just want to tell the hon. member that advertising abroad is aimed at the total market, through the newspapers of those countries, in which Satour advertises. It is therefore read by all, young people and people in the lower and higher income groups. It is cheaper for a German to visit South Africa today than it was 10 years ago, for example. In other words, we are already attracting larger numbers of people from the lower and middle income groups than before. I also want to say that young tourists are attracted to South Africa by special air fares for young people. However, it is not the task of this department to negotiate about air fares with the various airlines. Moreover, this negotiation is subject to Iata decisions. Only when we get the necessary youth air fares from Europe and North America shall we be able to give serious attention to the movement of young people to South Africa. Our domestic pattern of tourism has not greatly stimulated the movement of young people up to now. The reason for this is that children, especially teenagers, traditionally holiday with their parents in South Africa. That is probably why youth hostels are not yet so highly developed in South Africa as, for example, in Europe. According to our information and impressions, what the hon. member is asking for is not much in demand yet, but I do not want to suggest that he did not make out a positive case. However, seen from our point of view, this is basically my reply to the matter he raised.

†With reference to the points raised by the hon. member for Mooi River, my information is that the Department of Tourism is represented on the Hiking Trail Board. This board produces publications which are also distributed to the consumers via our National Tourist Bureaux. Apart from this, Satour has also produced a brochure entitled “Follow the Foot prints”—I hope the hon. member has seen it; it is a very good brochure—as well as a brochure entitled “Drakensberg”, which is also a very good brochure. These brochures are popular and do attract people to our mountain ranges. May I add that we must not forget our mountain passes, which are most diversified in beauty and are really unique in the world.

Skiing has a tremendous following in South Africa. Two years ago the Springbok Ski Club brought a number of skiers from Europe. They did in fact ski at Naude’s Nek near Rhodes. The hon. member for Mooi River knows where that is. The slopes were regarded as excellent, but the period of skiing was not even one month. It is a fact that snow machines may help, but the hon. member will know that they are tremendously expensive. This is a matter for private enterprise of course. At the same time we are interested in what is happening in this regard in Qwa-Qwa and we hear very interesting noises from that direction. This is definitely something for the future, but, again, private enterprise should take the initiative and we shall try to bring the skiers.

*I thank hon. members on this side of the House for their contributions. I thank the hon. member for Bethlehem, who made his usual solid contribution, and I also thank him for this kind words of congratulation and for the interesting ideas he expressed, especially in connection with the training of children in aspects of tourism to make them disciplined tourists from a youthful age. I think this is a very interesting and positive idea. We did not have time this evening to discuss it in detail, but there is also the guidance that has to be given to our non-White tourists to make them disciplined tourists as well in the sense in which the hon. member meant it The non-White tourist market is rapidly expanding in South Africa.

I have already replied in detail to the hon. member for Oudtshoorn with regard to regional committees as well as the interregional marketing.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South made his usual friendly contribution, for which I am also grateful. I thank him, too, for his kind words to the officials of the department in all its various branches. The hon. member asked us rather to look at the future. I am sorry that I did not speak at the beginning of the debate and deal with certain matters at that stage. Then the hon. member could have responded to that and could also have devoted his attention to future developments with regard to the department I whole-heartedly agree with the hon. member where he said “South Africa is a Rolls-Royce” and that it is very easy to sell this Rolls-Royce. It is so easy to sell this country. That is true. The numbers prove it and the amounts that are spent also prove it.

I also want to thank the hon. member for Ladybrand for his contribution. It is obvious that he was very well prepared. I have already replied to the various aspects he mentioned.

The hon. member for Kempton Park also covered a wide field. In particular, I want to tell him that we also have a very fine publication about angling. He referred, inter alia, to deep-sea fishing as a tourist attraction. During the past year or two, we made a substantial contribution to the marketing of international deep-sea and international fresh-water angling championships in South Africa. We had the interesting experience that two well-known Dutchmen who had been brought here to investigate the angling potential could not find accommodation in any of the three-, four- or five-star hotels in Cape Town. In the end, we found accommodation for them in the hotel at Kommetjie. I have been there and I think it is a very fine hotel. They then settled in there. A day or two later we found accommodation for them in one of the big hotels in Cape Town. We notified them of this and asked them to come back to town. What was their response? They turned down our request and said, “Oh no, we are not going back to Cape Town. We are having such an enjoyable stay in this hotel in Kommetjie; we are going to stay here for the rest of our visit.”

Hon. members can see, therefore, that by using the right marketing methods and offering the right product, these hotels can also make a splendid contribution.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Vasco asked me a few questions. I think I have already replied to him in full in the course of my remarks. I am grateful for the idea expressed by the hon. member, namely that we should consider a pool to which the private sector can also contribute, in order to make a further contribution with regard to advertising and in other respects. I think this is the beginning of an idea which has possibilities and which can be developed. If I take this up, I think, we shall eventually arrive at something much bigger than the hon. member has in mind at the moment.

I have already replied to a large extent to the hon. member for Jeppe. I appreciate the ideas he expressed about the marketing of South Africa among prospective tourists from Portugal and Madeira. I also gave the hon. member the fine percentage increase over the past year.

With this, I think, I have replied to all the hon. members. I am grateful for all the contributions, and I repeat that it is a very great privilege to be associated with such a fine department and to market such a fine product as South Africa.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No. 19.—“Commerce and Consumer Affairs” and Vote No. 20.—“Industries”:

Mr. Chairman, I request the privilege of the half hour.

This evening I should like to devote the major part of my speech to a general analysis of our economic situation and prospects, and to the policy we ought to be following. To be able to perform that task properly, it will be necessary to elaborate somewhat on my argument from time to time, perhaps even beyond the normal scope of the Vote under discussion. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I sincerely hope, that you will adopt an indulgent attitude towards me, because, as I have tried to indicate, a sound economic policy in South Africa, under today’s conditions, is largely dependent on sound policy in other fields as well. To this end I cannot find a better reference paper to use than the excellent presentation of the prospects for the South African economy, to which I have already referred in other debates in this House. This is the speech delivered by the Prime Minister’s Economic Adviser, Dr. Simon Brand, to the Association of Chartered Accountants on 26 April 1979 here in Cape Town.

I think it is particularly important that we examine the economic situation and the economic prospects generally, since we have received the two extremely important reports of the Wiehahn and Riekert Commissions during the past week. These commissions indicated a direction—I do not want to say for the first time—which reviewed the realities, the economic facts of South Africa, to a hitherto unprecedented extent. We now come to the analysis made by Dr. Simon Brand. He starts by indicating the challenges awaiting the South African economy. The first of these—I shall not dwell on this for any length of time, because we have already debated this often in the course of this session—is, of course, that of unemployment, present as well as future unemployment He gives the figure of approximately 800 000, or 9%, of the possible labour force being unemployed at the present time. This is a figure which is accepted by other people as well. He mentions the population growth and puts it at 2,7%. This, too, is a reasonably generally accepted figure, which is far too high to be comfortable in the light of our economic future. If it were possible for one to come forward with advice, which could be used to cause a decrease in the population growth, one would forthwith have rendered the greatest service possible to the economic future of South Africa. There is no easy solution to this. The only thing we know from the experience of many countries, as well as from other communities in our own country, is that the population growth starts levelling off when the standards of living of that particular community starts rising. From this point of view it is in the interests of all of us, too, to try to ensure that the standards of living of our least affluent groups rise as rapidly as possible.

The second challenge issued by Dr. Brand in this address of his, is that of narrowing our wealth gap. I should like to quote a few words of his. He says—

In conjunction with this I should like to quote from yesterday’s Burger what the hon. the Minister himself said in a speech at Beaufort West. He was speaking in view of the by-election to be held there. He said, inter alia (Die Burger 8 May 1979)—

I think the hon. the Minister said the same thing as that which I have just quoted from Dr. Brand’s address. Now that we, judging by the Wiehahn and Riekert reports, have accepted, in the economic sphere at least, that we are dealing with a single multiracial nation, a single, multiracial economic unit, we dare not ignore this warning. Dr. Brand says—

The third challenge issued by Dr. Brand in his address, is that of pressure exerted on South Africa from outside, owing to our position in international politics. This, he rightly says, demands the sacrifice of resources which, in other circumstances, could be used to meet the two aforementioned challenges, or could be utilized to meet this challenge from outside, and to raise standards of living. Otherwise it could be utilized to raise standards of living.

†Dr. Brand goes on and comes to the limiting factors which stand in the path of our meeting the challenges that are in front of us. He firstly mentions the skills shortage. Again it is something which we have mentioned often in this House. All projections and all studies that I know of, show that if we are to operate within the constraints of the skills shortage from which we suffer, we can only manage to do this when we are in recession and when there is high unemployment among our unskilled people. Conversely, if we wish to reduce or even contain the massive unemployment among our unskilled people, we can only do that at a growth rate which is such that we shall soon run out of skills. If we grow rapidly so as to provide jobs, we shall run out of skills. Again Dr. Brand has stated the essential truths very clearly. He says—

What he is saying, in effect, is that we must do away, at once, with all colour bars and that we must have crash programmes for the education and the training of our Brown and Black people.

The second restraint on our economic progress is described by him in the following words—

This has been dealt with before, so I shall be brief. I do, however, want to emphasize what I have emphasized before in this House. We cannot talk about economic growth, at a satisfactory rate, unless we talk also in terms of a capital inflow into South Africa. If we are to maintain the growth rate at the level of 5%, 5½% or 6%, a level which offers hope of overcoming unemployment, or even the hope of maintaining unemployment at present levels, we shall need capital over and above what we can provide from our own resources.

Quantitative economic forecasting is a dangerous business, but the best advice I have is that without a net capital inflow into South Africa we shall not be able to maintain a growth rate above about 3,5% which, while it is a growth rate not to be sneezed at, is nevertheless, according to Dr. Brand’s estimates and according to the estimates of every other expert, insufficient to allow us to reduce the unemployment rate.

The third restraining factor mentioned by Dr. Brand is competitiveness with other economies in our cost structure. Ability to maintain our current account in surplus, which is what is saving us at the moment, at a time when we still have a capital outflow, depends upon the costs of production in South Africa as compared with those of other countries. I quote what Dr. Brand says on this score—

But why do you not make your own speech?

It is a good thing that there is provision in this budget for a considerable expenditure on export incentives. We look forward to hearing the hon. the Minister tell us in what form and in what degree he expects success from this.

The fourth and last factor which Dr. Brand mentions in this connection, as a possible restraint on our economic progress, is the lack of confidence by our own business community. I shall not quote what he says because his speech is available. What he is essentially talking about, however, is that our own business community is very sensitive to any suggestion of undue interference in its affairs by the Government, and that what we are dealing with in South Africa, a lowered rate of private fixed investment, is at least, in some measure, to be attributed to the propensity of the Government to give the impression that it is interfering.

*Essentially these ideas are not mine, but Dr. Brand’s. I thought this House would be more receptive to the opinions of the hon. the Prime Minister’s adviser than to mine. This enables us to identify the policy objectives which we shall have to pursue if we want to solve our material problems. The objectives we have to pursue, are to create employment opportunities, to narrow the wealth gap, to cause the pressure on South Africa to diminish and to maintain the competitive capacity of our economy. These objectives can be achieved, firstly, by abolishing all colour bars in our economy as soon as possible; secondly, by giving top priority to the training of Black people and to the general education which largely has to precede that training; and, thirdly, by having the least possible interference from the Government in the private sector. From other debates the hon. the Minister will understand very well what my views in this regard are. Fourthly, there must be action—and this cannot be expected of the Minister of Economic Affairs as such, but of the Government as a whole—capable of improving our international position and of assisting to attract capital to South Africa. Last year, and this year again, I often said that if we wanted to strive after economic prosperity, we should have to choose between apartheid and prosperity. This evening I do not want to phrase it in the same words; this evening I shall rather phrase it in the following words: If we want our country to be economically sound, we shall have to devote all our energy and all our talents to effecting the abolition of all discrimination in South Africa and by giving top priority to uplifting our working class, our working people.

Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the hon. member for Parktown that he can safely leave economic affairs in the hands of the Government. This Government has a very fine record as far as economic affairs are concerned: For 30 years there has been unprecedented industrial peace in this country; there has been constant economic growth over this period; and there has been a high standard of living for all the people in South Africa, White, Coloured and Black. This is indeed a formidable record for any Government. It is a pity that the hon. member had to devote half of his speech, if not more than half, to quotations from the speech of Dr. Simon Brand. We should have liked to have heard much more of the hon. member’s own opinions. He said we had to choose between prosperity and apartheid. I want to tell him that it has been under separate development that South Africa has experienced unprecedented prosperity over the past 30 years.

Mr. Chairman, I shall not allow myself to be led any further astray by the hon. member. There is another matter I want to mention. No one could have any fault to find with the concept of equal pay for equal work of equal value. No one would object to a narrowing of the wage gap between Whites and non-Whites. Everyone welcomes the judicious increase of the salaries of non-Whites. We are all in favour of a fair dispensation, in respect of labour remuneration for Coloured and Black people in this country too. But the question could rightly be asked whether this process of increasing wages for non-Whites is not taking place too rapidly and too artificially in certain cases. When wages are increased too drastically and too rapidly, this could cause serious problems such as the closing of small labour-intensive factories and other enterprises. Many of them work on small profits and cannot absorb or survive drastic wage increases. This has been found under similar circumstances in North America as well as in West Germany. The result is that more and more people find themselves out of a job. A serious case has just been brought to my attention from Bloemfontein. Owing to wages which it could not afford, a clothing factory there has already had to pay off two-thirds of its Coloured workers. The reason for this is that the wages the factory is compelled to pay make it impossible for it to continue.

In this particular case, the factory has to compete with clothing factories from the Bophuthatswana homeland in neighbouring Thaba ’Nchu, where clothing workers are prepared to work for wages which are up to 75% lower than the wages which have to be paid in Bloemfontein. This enables these people in the homelands to keep their prices so low that they virtually eliminate competition. Now I want to ask the hon. Minister: What is this factory to do? In the end it will have to close, and the result is that a great number of people, in this case Coloureds, will find themselves without work. There are other factories too that are finding themselves in similar circumstances.

This sector of our economy is entering a difficult phase. The trade unions, too, will have to co-operate in preventing this sector from being crippled or destroyed, owing to unreasonably high wage demands. Wages which are artificially inflated, have only one effect: The enterprise is compelled to get along with less labour and it cuts down more and more on its labour force. The one who suffers is the worker, who finds himself out of a job. Is it not better for those workers rather to work for a smaller wage, for which they are willing to work, than to find themselves out of a job altogether? If this process of drastically and even exorbitantly increasing the wages of non-Whites continues unchecked, it will lead to a disaster for the masses of unskilled and ordinary workers, particularly the Blacks and Coloureds. When wages are equalized too rapidly, it could also have the further effect of causing non-White workers to be discriminated against merely on the basis of colour and preference to be given to White workers. This is exactly what happened in similar circumstances in America and it could happen here too.

I want to concede at once that the problems of the small businessman could to a certain extent be resolved by higher productivity. If, however, one examines the trend in the manufacturing industry as well as the construction industry, it would seem that not much has come of this. In the manufacturing industry, the average earnings per worker increased by 123% during the seven years from 1970 to 1977, while his production output remained unchanged. In the construction industry, the workers’ wages rose by 108% during the corresponding seven years, but the production per worker dropped by 7%. Therefore, higher wages were no incentive to higher production. This is a disquieting situation and we cannot leave it at that.

Unfortunately it is true that South Africa’s industry has lagged behind in comparison with that of other countries in utilizing productivity for growth. This applies to the manufacturing industry in particular. In the past quarter-century, Japan has been able to show a growth in its productivity which is nine times larger than South Africa’s. There are various Western countries, too that are surpassing us in this regard.

That is because they do not have an NP.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member should be grateful that he can live under an NP Government.

There is no panacea for the solution of our economic problems. But greater productivity is a basic cornerstone on which we could build. Productivity has become one of the crucial aspects of our country’s economy because it entails the optimal utilization of all production sources. How necessary this is in these times! Productivity entails the maximum utilization of money, raw materials, machinery and people. This holds the key to the prosperity of any country, including South Africa.

I have no doubt that the Wiehahn and the Riekert reports will make a major contribution to an increase in productivity. A better organized labour force, which is one of the objectives of these reports, cannot but push up our country’s productivity achievement. This could be a great boost for our economy in future. This is just what our country needs in these times.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bloemfontein North discussed two very important matters, viz. work opportunities and wages as stimuli in our economy. I really think that those matters the hon. member mentioned, are matters which we could approach with more attention. The hon. member for Parktown spoke about a higher growth rate. We have no fault to find with that. I think all of us in this country are in favour of a higher growth rate.

I should like to discuss the report of the Board of Trade and Industry on the tariff policy and the tariff structure with regard to the provision of electricity in South Africa. Before I refer to this, however, I should like to put a few questions to the hon. the Minister, to which he could perhaps react in a little while. When one travels through the Eastern Transvaal, one sees power stations arising everywhere like mole-hills. I have often wondered why such power stations are not built in the far Northern Transvaal as well. In case the hon. the Minister does not know it, I want to tell him that there are vast deposits of the best quality coal on the Springbok Flats. There are vast coal deposits at Waterpoort, to the north of Pietersburg. There are very large coal deposits which are being mined at Ellisras. Why cannot a few of those mole-hill power stations be erected in the far Northern Transvaal too? I think that they would be of great assistance to that part of the world which is crying out for development. If the hon. the Minister would perhaps pay a little attention to that, we would be very pleased.

Another matter which has a bearing on this, is the development of the border farms, especially those along the Limpopo River in the far Northern Transvaal. If those farms could be provided with more power, more people would be prepared to move to that area to develop it and to serve as a buffer.

I now want to come back to the report of the Board of Trade and Industry. I think it is an extremely important report. All of us looked forward to it hopefully and had great expectations. I think perhaps we are not going to be disappointed. The hon. the Minister said this afternoon in reply to a question that the Government would indicate its attitude in respect of this report at a later stage. At this juncture I just want to ask the hon. the Minister to inform us more specifically and in detail, when he states the Government’s standpoint, of what the Government is going to do in respect of farms. I say this, because it always appears to me as though certain sectors of the economy, particularly trade and industry, regard the farmer as an individual and not as a tremendously important factor in our domestic economy in general. I think that agriculture is at present the second biggest earner of foreign exchange. One should not view agriculture and the farmer in isolation in this case.

High electricity tariffs in agriculture could perhaps cause many of our farmers, particularly during this critical period of droughts and high production costs, and particularly in the Northern Transvaal, which is my part of the world where there is so much irrigation, to change their farming patterns, perhaps to their own detriment. They cannot keep up with these high tariffs. I know the hon. the Minister is very well-disposed towards this matter, but the hon. the Minister is also the Minister who has to attend to our petroleum needs in this country. Agriculture uses large quantities of petroleum products, particularly diesel. They should like very much to change over to electricity, if it is possible for them to do so.

Now you are on the right track.

I should now like to quote the hon. the Minister a passage from Die Boer. Die Boer is a publication of the S.A. Agricultural Union and in the February 1979 edition we read, inter alia—

I agree with this. I should like to point out that we should not forget that a very large percentage of the total value of our domestic agricultural production flows into secondary industries. For example, I am thinking about the fact that more than 40% of all the fruit and vegetables produced by agriculture, is sent to the canning factories. It is often not realized to what extent the flow of agricultural products from our farms keep the wheels of transport turning and the gears of industry functioning and it ensures thousands of employees in these industries of a viable livelihood. I mention these things to show how essential it is to take a look at this starting point, viz. agriculture, and to be accommodating. It may make it possible for the producer to continue production and it can also have a beneficial effect that could be passed on to the eventual consumer.

As far as the report is concerned, quite a number of positive suggestions were made in it Agriculture asked for the equalization of tariffs. The hon. the Minister will remember that I raised the matter with him a few times. Agriculture also asked for a technical committee which would liaise with the S.A. Agricultural Union. If the hon. the Minister would pay special attention to paragraph 437 of the report, he would see there what the problem of agriculture is and what compromise we should like to see being made in agriculture. Mr. Chairman, I should be very pleased if the hon. the Minister, when he reacts to this report, will spend more time on agriculture than the space which was allotted to agriculture in this report. I welcome this report and I think it is an excellent piece of work, but I do feel that insufficient attention was given to agriculture in this report.

That is what I find to criticize in it. In this report we find a great deal of criticism being levelled in particular at the exorbitant profits which Escom made by means of increased tariffs, which it deemed necessary in order to obtain money for self-financing. This is, of course, an unsound principle. I believe that when the Government turns its attention to this report, it will have to dwell on this matter more specifically. One can spend a long time discussing electricity and electricity tariffs and how they affect the various sectors. Here one thinks, of course, of trade and industry, which are very big consumers of electricity. One also thinks of mining. I also mentioned agriculture earlier on.

The matter to which I now want to refer, may not fall under the hon. the Minister, but perhaps he could convey it to the correct persons and in that way make a very big name for himself. All the hon. members in this House are constantly receiving letters from old people who complain that they are unable to make ends meet on their pensions, because those of them who live in the urban areas, have to pay such high electricity tariffs and rates. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to congratulate the hon. member who has just sat down on having made a very good speech. In fact, I think he has pre-empted a bit of what one or two of my colleagues are going to say later in this debate. However, there is a lot of what he has said with which we completely agree. I thank him for his contribution.

I should like to refer briefly to what the hon. member for Parktown has said about the choice which is facing South Africa, namely the choice between progress and apartheid. I should like to put it to him that I believe that a nail has already been hammered into the coffin of apartheid in respect of labour relations. [Interjections.] This is the case as a result of what has happened in the last two weeks during which we have had the reports of the Riekert Commission and the Wiehahn Commission. I believe the nails are starting to be hammered into the coffin of apartheid. This is the first nail. [Interjections.] I believe it is just a matter of time before the constitutional nail is hammered into the coffin of apartheid. That will come within the next 12 months.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein North said that there should be productivity of labour. I agree with him wholeheartedly. However, there is another kind of productivity about which I should like to talk tonight, namely the productivity of capital. This hon. Minister is responsible for some of the biggest corporations in this country, namely the State corporations. He, together with his colleagues, is responsible for billions of rands invested in Iscor, Escom, Sasol and many others. I am very pleased with what the hon. the Minister said yesterday. He said that his thrust in the economic affairs of South Africa is orientated towards the private sector. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that in this regard we are behind him all the way. We shall support him in all his actions to further the interests of the private sector.

However, having said that, I should like to talk about what has happened in the economy as far as State corporations are concerned. In this regard I want to refer to the March 1979 quarterly report of the South African Reserve Bank. I should like to refer the hon. the Minister to page S.79 of this report where the change in investment in South Africa since 1971 is dealt with. In 1971 the gross domestic fixed investment of the public corporations was 9,9% of the total amount invested. In 1978 this had more than doubled to 22%. In 1971 the private business enterprises constituted 54,3% of the gross domestic fixed investment. This fell to 48,4% in 1978. It is when we look at the net domestic investment that I think we see the real change. In 1971 the investment of public corporations constituted 14,7% of the net domestic investment. In 1978 it had more than doubled to 34,6% of the net domestic investment The investment of private business enterprise, on the other hand, had dropped from 47,3% in 1971 to a measly 12,5% last year. I am sure that the hon. the Minister will concede that here we have seen a major shift in the investment patterns in South Africa. We accept that these State corporations do have a tremendous strategic value in our economy and are vital to the economy as a whole. However, I believe that the hon. the Minister must first of all ensure that the growth of public corporations is commensurate with the overall growth of the economy as a whole.

At all times?

The hon. the Minister asks whether it should be so at all times. I think it has got to be commensurate with the needs and the growth of the economy of South Africa as a whole. [Interjections.] I concede the point to him in that regard. Secondly, these capital development projects of the State corporations must be correctly planned to meet the needs of South Africa. Thirdly, the running and administration of these corporations have to be tightly controlled because after all, as I have said, there are thousands of millions of rands of South African money invested in these State corporations. If they are inefficiently run, this will result in a tremendous drain on the economy, a drain which South Africa just cannot afford at this time in its history.

These are the responsibilities of the hon. the Minister. Therefore I should like to look at one State corporation in particular, one which I looked at last year, viz. Escom. I should like to say to the hon. the Minister that I am a bit disappointed that we only received Escom’s annual report today. I think it should have been tabled weeks ago. I think it is very regrettable and shocking that we should only receive it a few hours before this debate.

During this debate last year I raised the point that Escom’s capital development budget was a heavy burden on the economy as a whole. I questioned the hon. the Minister on whether the increase in the reserve capacity of generating electricity was justified. My comments are to be found in last year’s Hansard, col. 6724. The hon. the Minister’s reply is to be found in col. 6750. I do not have time to go into it at the present time. However, the hon. the Minister rejected my comments about there being too great a reserve capacity. I called it surplus capacity, but I know the actual term is “reserve capacity”. However, we have recently received the Board of Trade and Industries’ report No. 1889 on Escom. I found it extremely interesting to read the conclusions in this report on page 153. From these conclusions one finds that many of the points of view we adopted last year are found to have been justified. I should like to put it to the hon. the Minister, and I think he has to concede the point. I should like to quote from the report (page 153, para. 585)—

But you made those speeches in 1977 and 1978.

I was looking at the trend over a period of five to 10 years—as I have done tonight—since 1971. The hon. the Minister must also look at the changes in the economic climate in that light. It is his job. The report goes on to say—

In respect of the reserve capacity, the report goes further. I quote—

It goes on to say that in the past, from 1974 to 1976, it varied from 11 to 14%, reaching a peak of 26,3% in 1972. However, the report shows that within a matter of a few years it will reach about 40% reserve capacity. This is exactly the point I made last year.

I believe that this reserve capacity is too high at this stage of economic development in South Africa. The report goes on to say, and I quote (para. 586)—

How often—and the hon. the Minister of Transport can prove that—have I, in particular, talked over the years about capital investment and the need for cost benefit studies and analysis, and here it is in this report I think that the approach we have taken is beautifully summarized in para. 588 of the report. I quote—

And we all agree with this. I quote further—

which is what we are all talking about today—

It goes on to say in the next paragraph (para. 589)—

I think that this is a very interesting report. I should therefore like the hon. the Minister to reply to this now, especially in the light of what he said to me last year. I think this report has justified the stand which I and my party have taken in recent years. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to react to what was said by the hon. member for Amanzimtoti. I am quite satisfied that the hon. the Minister will deal with all his objections and appeals. However, there is one thing I wish to say—and I am directing it to the hon. member for Parktown as well—and that is that they have again dragged the concept of apartheid into this debate. Those people should not, however, read into the Riekert and Wiehahn Reports something which is not there. They should not wrest what is written in those two reports from its context. Those guidelines were laid down by the NP, and in the basis of those guidelines we shall progress in the interest of all, Whites as well as non-Whites. We shall progress on that basis. If changes have to be made, the NP is not afraid of making those changes. [Interjections.] We shall do so in the interests of South Africa. But we shall not allow ourselves to be dictated to by people who rant and rave, by the official Opposition who has been unable to do anything for the electorate in South Africa up to now. We shall advance and we shall not pay any attention to them. For that reason I have every confidence that the hon. the Minister will do what his heart tells him to do and that that will be the correct thing to do. South Africa is known as one of the countries in the Western world which, small as it is, has always been able to pride itself on its sound economy. Does the official Opposition dispute that as well? They remain silent as the grave. South Africa’s economy has always demanded the respect of the world. We have experienced years of very good growth in our economy. However, there have also been years in which we experienced a recession, but it was a world-wide phenomenon. At that time we did not have the growth we would have liked to have. However, we have the fullest confidence. We would fall right to the bottom if the official Opposition were to take over our economy one day. [Interjections.] Are they such wonderful economists! I am not an economist. If I were, I would not have been sitting here. I would have had my own business. [Interjections.]

There is one matter I should like to raise this evening. It is something which affects all of us. I am referring to the question of fuel. As everyone knows, South Africa is involved in an oil crisis, and we can avert it only with the co-operation of the public. I want to thank the hon. the Minister for the present hours for the sale of fuel. The old hours from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. were very inconvenient. At present, the hours are from 7 a.m. to 6 p.m., including Saturdays, and from 7 a.m. to 12 noon on Wednesdays. These hours have made it much easier for the person who has to undertake long journeys. Just look at the thousands of motor vehicles one sees on our roads every day. Perhaps the hon. the Minister will be able to tell us in this debate whether any saving has become evident in recent months. I sincerely trust that it is indeed so. If one looks at the volume of traffic to be found on our roads over weekends, no reduction is to be seen.

What worries me particularly, is that the people are still not observing the speed limits. If one is prepared to restrict oneself to a speed of 80 km/h on the open road, there is nothing which irritates one more than seeing one motor-car after another overtaking one. I have had an expensive device installed in my car. It keeps me inside the speed limit

Well done.

Although that device costs a lot of money—it costs a few hundred rands—it saves one fuel.

It also saves you fines.

Yes, that too. Why did I have it installed? [Interjections.] Sir, I do not know whether the hon. members are taking this seriously. I had it installed so that I may be able to adjust my car to the speed at which I want to travel when I am travelling on the open road. Then my car maintains that speed. As I have said, it saves one a lot of fuel. However, it irritates one when one is travelling on the open road and the cars slip past one. It is, of course, quite impossible to have a traffic officer on every road and at every comer. I want to ask the hon. the Minister—and I do this on behalf of many motorists in the country—to have the cars of drivers who are caught travelling at high speeds on our roads confiscated and to have their names, addresses and photographs be published in the newspapers. Let that be a deterrent to the public. When the Minister appeals to the public, they react just for the first week.

Are you going to lock up the Minister if he trespasses?

If the Minister breaks the law by driving too fast, he must be locked up if that is what the law provides.

Hear, hear!

If I have to observe the speed limit, I expect every member of the public to do the same. I am serious. Let me make this clear. The provincial traffic officers and the municipal traffic officers simply cannot be at every comer to catch people. However, an example should be set to the public. If four or five cars in the country are confiscated, people will listen. Let the motorist who trespasses, be fined R100 or R200 and let his name and address be published in the newspaper. For example, let it be reported: “‘Koeks’ Rossouw from Stilfontein was fined R200 because he drove too fast”.

Shame!

No, it is not a shame. We are experiencing a survival crisis. We may still have to ration petrol. If we do not have fuel to keep the factories and the industries operating so as to be able to provide employment to the Black man, about whom hon. members on the opposite side are so concerned, what are we going to do? Surely the hon. members want to see South Africa’s economy growing? They want the salary of the Black man to be drastically increased, not so? But the petrol which will have to provide that man with a salary in future is being consumer and wasted on the roads. [Interjections.]

That hon. member must not point his finger at me. I suppose he is one of the people who drive so fast [Interjections.] There is a tremendous demand for smaller cars today. Not all of us can buy smaller cars. Let me be honest: I do not see my way clear to do so. There is no point in buying a smaller car and leaving one’s Mercedes-Benz in the garage and driving it on Sundays only. It does not pay. I want to address a serious appeal to the hon. the Minister—and that is all I wanted to deal with this evening; it relates to our fuel consumption and to the traffic on our roads—to effect a larger degree of cooperation with the local authorities concerning the provision of public transport. It is not necessary for everyone to drive to town alone in his own car every day. I shall be grateful if the hon. the Minister will implement the particular Act in this way.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Stilfontein could just as well have said: “Save a litre for tomorrow.” I think all of us agree that we should make a point of not wasting any fuel.

I should like to raise the question of the development of border industries and of industrial decentralization. I am of the opinion, particularly in the light of the Wiehahn and Riekert reports, that it is vitally important that we should accept in broad principle the matters which have been raised in these two reports, as an indication of our positive intention to promote economic growth on an associational basis here in Southern Africa In reply to the hon. member for Parktown I want to make it quite clear, however, that while he said that we seemed to be one nation in the economic field at least, it is a fact, nevertheless, that we are not one nation. We consist of many nations. As is the case in the European Economic Community, our many nations can cooperate in the interests of our common economic growth and prosperity.

Within a confederation.

Therefore I want to stress that, in the light of the Wiehahn and Riekert reports, the Government should now prepare a co-ordinated plan so that a very purposeful, systematic and fast-moving development plan for the Black States can be initiated. Development must take place much faster. I accept that there must be greater co-ordination between the Ministry of Economic Affairs and the present Department of Plural Relations and Development There must be greater coordination, because there are many industrialists who may be hesitant, because of circumstances, to undertake developments within the homelands. I would give development within the Black States the highest priority, but if that is impractical—and there are circumstances which render it impractical for the industrialist—an absolute incentive should be given for the faster development of industries in the border areas where associational development can take place between the Black States and the White industrialists in the border areas.

Stable economic development requires a stable political society. On the basis of political stability we must realize that the political sphere is an emotional one in the tense situation which prevails in Southern Africa, and in the politically emotional sphere we have to make provision for separate political development However, the economic sphere is a rational one in which co-operation can take place on a much broader basis. Therefore we must have separate political development but economic co-operation: Economic co-operation for South Africa as a whole, but that economic co-operation should also be on a basis of associational development And this does not mean the development of only one of the partners; all the partners must develop together. In other words, a nationally orientated economic development should be encouraged in the Black States, on the basis of a joint and coordinated plan. I have stressed the fact that to my mind, there should be much greater co-ordination in the planning of economic development between the Department of Economic Affairs, the Department of Plural Relations and Development and the Black States which are either independent already or still have to obtain their independence. There must be much closer co-ordination taking place.

As far as the aspect of decentralization is concerned, I want to state that I accept that, as a result of the recessionary conditions we have experienced over the past few years, there will be industries which may not want to move to the decentralized areas very soon, because they are at present situated in an area where they have a reserve capacity. I want to stress, however, that in my opinion it is essential that labour-intensive industries in particular be offered much greater encouragement to develop in the Black States. To my mind, far greater incentives should be provided. At present, the incentives are based on a loan for the capital investment, and on an interest subsidy on machinery, buildings and land. I want to ask whether consideration has been given to a support subsidy based on the number of workers employed in the border industries or in the Black States. The more people are employed there, the better it is for the development of the Black people, for if they can be encouraged to settle in the areas where they live together with their families, it will lead to tertiary development, as a result of economic growth and economic interaction which will take place. In other words, general development takes place on the basis of the development of the family structure. In my opinion, it is absolute economic nonsense to spend hundreds of millions of rands on piping water from the Tugela River over the Drakensberg to the industries on the Witwatersrand, and also to have to send the labourers in the area to the Witwatersrand to be accommodated there in unsatisfactory conditions, while the industries can be situated in this area with its available water, labour and resources, an area which has a need for economic growth and development. I want to request that more attention be given to a revision of the incentives offered to attract industrialists to the decentralized areas. I want to ask whether the incentives are not of such a nature at present that the benefits which are given are more or less equal to the benefits which the industries already enjoy in the metropolitan areas. In my opinion, the benefits should be much greater in the decentralized areas, because in our national strategic plan, too, a decentralization of industry is an absolute necessity. Particularly because we have experienced a period of recession, I want to make a very urgent appeal to the Government to pay serious attention to a revision of the incentives offered to attract industrialists to the decentralized areas, not only in Natal, but also in the Western Cape, in the Eastern Cape, and in all areas where industrial development is desirable to promote family life and ensure a better stabilized development of the population as a whole.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Klip River and the hon. member for Stilfontein both supported the reports of the Wiehahn and Riekert Commissions and in that respect we all agree unanimously. The hon. member for Stilfontein made an appeal for fuel conservation and we agree with that as well. However, we cannot agree with the hon. member about locking people up that readily and simply confiscating motor cars left, right and centre. The hon. member for Klip River dealt with the development of border industries. As long as decentralization takes place on a sound economic basis, we have no objection to it, but in this regard I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to afford the Port Elizabeth region all the benefits of border industry development as well.

On economic grounds?

Yes, on economic grounds. The hon. the Minister has been there and made a speech himself in Port Elizabeth a few days ago. He realizes what our problems are. Therefore, I believe he should give us in Port Elizabeth some assistance.

†The secretaries and the officials of both these departments are dedicated people who go out of their way to co-operate and to assist us at all times. We should like to express our appreciation to them and their officials for this attitude. The hon. the Minister and all his colleagues—and indeed the whole of South Africa—have a major problem on their hands in relation to unemployment. Dr. Brand, the Prime Minister’s economic adviser—as has been said before in this debate—has mentioned that 800 000 Blacks are unemployed at present, and he also mentioned that 260 000 Blacks would be coming onto the market every year for the next 10 years. He went on to say, and I quote—

In South Africa we have created a situation that redounds to our credit, with millions of children being educated, so the average educational standards will and must rise. Once having spent thousands of millions of rands on the infrastructure of education, it would be a sad and tragic day if these people, who are well educated, can then not be gainfully employed in the economy. The vast problem of the expanding economy to accommodate workseekers is the responsibility that must be shared by all those who participate actively, in the public and private sectors, in providing job opportunities. We must examine the alternatives open to us and investigate each one in depth. The whole of Africa will benefit if we form an African Economic Community. Each State in Africa will be stronger in belonging to this union than in going it alone. I can understand that initially there will be some African States that may resist such a move, but there will also be many leaders in Africa who would see the tremendous benefits of such a move. South Africa can and must be the dynamo of Southern Africa, and if we work at grouping together the willing African States, the move will snowball. We have a lot to offer Africa. There are others who offer Africa bullets, guns and weapons. Those offers come mostly from people who want to use and abuse Africa for their own purposes. They do not come to build in Africa; they come to break in Africa. Countries in Africa which had large export trades but which, due to their being involved with the Marxists and the terrorists, have seen their economies come to a standstill, see their people suffering from a lack of food, medical services and health services and see their economies collapsing. I believe that if we were to succeed in our aim of establishing an African economic community, it would place Africa on a far better footing when dealing with the EEC, for example, and in relation to world trade. In other words, we have to double, treble and quadruple our exports in the years to come if we are to meet the challenges of our times. That is why we welcome the fact that in the next financial year the amount set aside for export promotion will be almost trebled. Our mineral wealth has earned us enormous amounts of foreign exchange and will continue to increase with the years. Our agricultural and other industries must be given the maximum encouragement to export. Obviously, the more we can export, the more industry in South Africa will expand and the more job opportunities we will create for all our people. I believe that the people in commerce and industry should be given special incentives and concessions. For example, for each additional employee, the Government should give the employers some form of tax rebate or some form of concession so that he knows that by employing more people he would get some benefit. He would then naturally take more people into his employ, but, of course, only if it suits his particular industry to do so.

It is obvious that the economy needs foreign capital, and during one budget debate we suggest that the Government should borrow money from abroad, from foreign lenders, by objectives. Take for example the project housing which would create an enormous amount of work and enormous employment opportunities. If the Government borrowed say R1 000 million for housing for the other race groups in South Africa, the foreign lenders could lend that money without worrying about their critics because they would be lending the money to improve the quality of life of the other race groups in South Africa. So money can be borrowed to start industrial ventures involving the employment of other race groups, more especially in the border areas and in the homelands.

It is essential for us to make our concessions attractive to foreign investors so that they will invest in South Africa. I believe that the acceptance of the De Kock Commission report and recommendations on the financial rand should do a lot to stimulate industry and industrial development in South Africa. I believe, however, that their must be an extensive sales campaign publicizing the advantages of the financial rand, both locally and abroad. Especially prepared publications in this regard must be sent to the head offices and local offices of at least every foreign company that operates in South Africa.

Through the financial rand—if the hon. the Minister could persuade his colleague, the hon. the Minister of Finance, to make further concessions to the motor industry—would he not be able to make prospects so attractive for them that they would become a 100% self-sufficient and not have to import parts from abroad. I am thinking of concessions such as abolishing the sales duty and the surcharge and making certain tax concessions. If the hon. the Minister could achieve self-sufficiency in the motor industry, naturally with their co-operation, it would be a magnificent break-through for South Africa. The hon. the Minister should extend the length of hire-purchase agreements to encourage and stimulate car sales. I think more encouragement and incentives should be given to the producers of non-luxury cars because small cars use far less petroleum products, and also for other reasons obviously. If car producers had a longer run they could produce the cars far more cheaply. If it is possible, by way of extra-special exporters’ assistance, to achieve massive exports of motor-cars, the hon. the Minister would have an enormous contributor to our foreign exchange. I think that he must go out of his way and set himself the target of making the motor industry self-sufficient in South Africa. With the motor industry fully developed, he could create job opportunities for thousands of people in the motor industry and allied industries. The Port Elizabeth region is mainly dependent on the motor industry, and we should like to appeal to the hon. the Minister to assist this industry as far as possible. It may well be that the hon. the Minister, because of the oil crisis, would be inclined to cast a jaundiced eye at the motor industry. I hope, however, that I am wrong and that he will not do so.

Mr. Chairman, there is another aspect that concerns us. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the Government should not be concentrating into buying on smaller cars for its own requirements, except for exceptionable circumstances and certain dignitaries who have to maintain a certain standard. That one can understand. Otherwise, except for these few exceptions, we believe that the Government should be concentrating its buying on smaller cars. If the Government did this, would it not of necessity lead to the public following suit? If people go for smaller cars it will also lead to longer production lines of smaller cars. Whatever the hon. the Minister does, he must consult with the motor industry and assist them to play an even greater part in our economy.

The hon. the Minister will appreciate that with most industries electricity plays an important part in the cost structure. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon. member the opportunity of completing his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for the opportunity which he affords me. I shall endeavour to use the time profitably.

†Electricity plays an important part not only in industry, but also in commerce and in every walk of life. In all of these it is a major contributor towards costs and inflation.

There is a report on the policy of Escom and we would appreciate it if the hon. the Minister could assure us that the Escom tariffs will not be such that they place a heavier burden on the economy than is absolutely necessary. One gains the impression that Escom has a policy of financing larger amounts of capital spending out of retained income or profits than is actually necessary.

Would you like to qualify your statement?

The way we see it, Escom must for its capital requirements go to one of a few sources. They must either borrow money abroad or locally or they must get their capital requirements to a certain extent out of their tariffs. It is obvious that they have to assess their position from year to year and from time to time. That is the first point.

That is a fair statement.

Well, I am putting it fairly. Therefore, if they look at their capital requirements over a period, they will try to borrow what they can from abroad, they will then try to borrow what they can locally and for the balance they cannot borrow they will obviously have to make provision in their tariff structure. Alternatively, they will have to be assisted by the Government or from the general pool of Government funds. However, I do not believe that the users of electricity—commerce and industry—should be prejudiced to the extent that their products are priced out of the market, more especially when one bears in mind that we are a country that wants to export and that, therefore, we must keep prices down to a reasonable level. We would like to hear from the hon. the Minister in this regard. We would like to hear what his suggestions are in regard to this particular problem.

Many of us have had the privilege of being on parliamentary trips overseas. We were very pleasantly surprised at the very strong ties that we discovered existed between the business community overseas and our own. All the countries we visited wanted to increase their trade with South Africa. In fact, some countries which are major trading countries complained to us that other major trading countries were doing more trade with South Africa than they were. We told them that the solutions were obvious.

They must improve their own position.

They must improve their own position and this could work on a reciprocal basis: “You can do business with us and we would like to do business with you.” However, I am trying to indicate to the hon. the Minister that the commercial ties are very strong and that they supersede the hostilities of the various Governments.

While the Government of a certain country allows approximately R2 million to be given to the terrorists, we found that the people in commerce and industry in that country are openly critical of their Government Many of the people of that country in commerce and industry have in fact been to South Africa and are very pleased and anxious to broaden their ties with South Africa and to increase trade with us. They are openly hostile towards their own Government for allowing a few million rand a year to be sent to the terrorists. They are generally critical of their own Government in regard to its stance towards South Africa. We should like the Government to invite overseas business people to this country in far greater numbers to view the prospects for investment in South Africa, more especially now that we have this very attractive medium for foreign investors in the financial rand. We would like to see a group of mixed industrialists or prospective investors coming from each investing country. They must be invited here and be presented with suitable publications and information. Thereafter they must be taken on a conducted tour through South Africa to show them what the investment possibilities are. Perhaps the hon. the Minister could think in terms of a large trade fair for accomplishing this, because the interest in South Africa is growing all the time, despite the hostility in other fields.

Lastly I want to say that we wholeheartedly approve of the additional expenditure of R3 200 million on the additions to Sasol. We agree that this is an urgent priority. We believe it is absolutely necessary and would therefore like to hear from the hon. the Minister that this project will be completed in the shortest possible time. We have to expand and grow at a much faster rate if we are going to provide opportunities for all South Africans. It goes without saying that we have spent money—as I have said earlier—on developing an educational infrastructure second to none. In fact, the number of children we are educating in South Africa at the moment is almost equal to the whole population of Denmark. That being so, it is obvious that people who have gone through this educational process will expect far better job opportunities than there have been in the past. One will therefore have to see to it that one creates the infrastructure, and I do not believe that this is solely the Government’s responsibility. I believe that there are various components in this process. There is the Government, the public sector and the private sector. All of South Africa has to stand together and assist in the process of developing positions for all the job-seekers who will be coming into the market in the years to come.

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. member for Walmer will forgive me if I do not react to the arguments he has presented to the hon. the Minister. I should like to deal with the hon. member for Parktown. I always listen with great interest when the hon. member for Parktown, the chief economic spokesman for the official Opposition, stands up in this House to speak on Votes of this nature, particularly because of the hon. member’s background. From him one expects some contribution, in this House, on the economic philosophy or policies of his party. This evening we have had three spokesmen of the official Opposition. All we had from the hon. member for Parktown, however, was a speech based on the published statement of Dr. Brand and the points he made. In no single instance, however—and I listened very closely to the hon. member—did he make any single positive contribution to indicate what he considered to be a possible solution to some of the economic problems that we face. This is even more surprising in the light of the fact that that hon. member had the report of the Riekert Commission in his possession for at least 24 to 48 hours. One would therefore have anticipated that he had had time—or at least that his backroom boys advising him had had the time—to have studied this report, got the gist of it and given us in this House the benefit of the official Opposition’s thinking on the suggestions and guidelines laid down in the report. For example, knowing the philosophy of the official Opposition, one would have anticipated—at least I would have—that the hon. member for Parktown would, for example, have given us the benefit of his thinking on the findings, suggestions and recommendations of the Riekert Commission about free trade areas. We did not, however, hear a word about that I am surprised about that. Is the reticence displayed by that hon. gentleman a symptom indicating that his party does no thinking? Or is it perhaps because the foundations of all their political arguments have been knocked out from under them because of the contents of the Wiehahn report, the Government’s acceptance of the guidelines laid down in that report and in the light of the hon. the Minister’s statement on the Riekert Commission’s report. They simply have no arguments any more. I shall now turn from my discussion of the hon. member for Parktown because I can see that he is anxious to leave the House.

I should like to direct the hon. the Minister’s attention to another aspect of economic policy. It has been stated, and is accepted, that to combat unemployment and achieve a sound economy we should average a growth rate of between 4% and 5%. If that is accepted, one has to ask oneself how that is going to be achieved and from where it is going to come. Can we achieve a satisfactory economic growth rate of 4% by merely developing an export market? Or is that growth rate going to be dependent upon an increase in our internal economy and an increase in the buying power of the population of South Africa? My submission is that in the first instance that growth must come out of the internal economy of the country, the buying power of our own people.

I must then ask which section of the population—and I am now talking about the years 1977, 1978, 1979 and 1980—will have the greatest buying power by 1980. I have taken the trouble to get hold of some figures, but before I give those figures there is another point I wish to make. There is often a lot of talk—and there was in Dr. Brand’s article—about the necessity to close the income gap. One never hears the argument, however, that if one is going to close the income gap, one also has to raise the level of productivity at the same time to justify this economically. It is interesting to see, as far as closing the income gap is concerned, what the present-day position is. In a market survey I was fortunate to obtain, a survey based on Government assessments and information, one sees clearly that in the period from 1970 to 1977 there was a fourfold increase in Black wages whilst the wages of Whites only doubled. This is based on actual statistical data, taking into consideration the increases in the cost of living and based on current price levels. If that is so, an estimate has to be made, within the existing pattern in South Africa, of the potential Black buying power in the country. I think I can say, without any fear of correction, that our internal Black buying power in the year 1980 will exceed that of Whites for the first time. It is estimated—and I shall talk in terms of expenditure patterns because of the limited time at my disposal—that Black disposable income in 1977 was something like R5 497 million, representing 34,9% of total disposable income. By 1980 the figure of Black disposable income will have increased to 64,7% of total disposable income in the Republic.

Let me now give a few other indications of how the market is affected. Private consumer expenditure on reading matter in the non-White market will represent 24,5% of overall expenditure, as compared to a growth rate in the reading matter market in South Africa of 5,8%. Newspapers such as the Rand Daily Mail and the Sunday Times are well aware of this, because of the Rand Daily Mail’s total circulation, only 30% is White, whilst only 37% of the Sunday Times’ total circulation is White. On cigarettes and tobacco Whites will expend 31% of their disposable income whilst Blacks will expend 54%, a 1,4% increase of private consumption expenditure. In regard to liquor the expenditure will be on a par. In regard to transport there will be an increase of 4,5% in White car ownership from 1979 to 1980 compared with an increase in expenditure on private transport by Blacks of 11,4%. As regards public transport, expenditure by Whites declined by 11% whereas expenditure by Blacks increased by 5,7%. The same applies in respect of furniture, clothing and food. In other words, our growth factor in South Africa and the expansion of our economy is going to be largely dependent on the expansion of the Black market, of Black buying power, in South Africa. This being the case, one has to take a look at the suggestions and findings of the Riekert Commission as far as free trade areas are concerned. The commission has some very profound recommendations to make which I hope the hon. the Minister will possibly clarify in his reply to the debate. The Riekert Commission has made certain proposals to give a fillip to the internal economy to get rid of the racial discrimination which may possibly exist in the economic world and which I believe will largely disappear within the next two years if all the guide-lines of these commissions are to be accepted. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Von Brandis spelt out to us the importance of Black buying power for the future. We are grateful to him for the picture he painted.

Mr. Chairman, we are dealing this evening with an economic debate. However, if one looks at the investment the Opposition parties have made during the past few weeks in two by-elections and if one looks at the figures that are coming through this evening, it seems as if it was a very bad investment for the official Opposition as well as for the NRP. According to the figures, it seems as if the PFP are going to lose their deposit in Swellendam. However, I shall rather discuss something else which is more pleasant.

That is quite pleasant enough.

Because we are dealing with the economy of the country, I want to come back to the Vote.

I should like to talk about the fishing industry in South Africa. As far as the world fishing industry is concerned, South Africa is at present estimated on the basis of volume to be in 11th position among the nations. South Africa’s position is today firmly established as far as its marine products are concerned. Its production has increased to a turnover of R200 million per annum. South Africa is also the second biggest manufacturer of fish meal in the world. In 1973 South Africa was already manufacturing more than 241 000 tons of fish meal.

It is quite interesting to note how the history of the fishing industry developed in South Africa. At the time of the Dutch settlement the Cape fishing waters were already renowned for their good catches. It was only in 1896, however, that we were able to produce our own fish. Prior to that time we had to import fish. The turning point came when we first bought a deep-sea trawler, the Pieter Faure, which began to fish on an organized basis. As recently as 1924 when the Union Government accepted the full financial responsibility for fisheries and expenditure on research, the fishing industry entered a new phase. It was only after the Second World War, however, that the fishing industry in South Africa and South West Africa began to show a spectacular development.

In 1940, the Sea Fisheries Act was passed, which made the Central Government legally responsible for the development and control over all sea fisheries, and in 1944 the Fisheries Development Corporation—Fishcor—came into being, which was to be responsible for both catches and marketing in the fishing industry. Since the establishment of Fishcor catches increased considerably. In 1948 the total catch in South Africa amounted to 176 000 tons and in 1973 it already amounted to more than 1,3 million tons. From that small and dubious beginning the industry in South Africa developed into one of the biggest exporters of fish meal and the biggest producer of canned pilchards in the world. Furthermore, South Africa has developed a fish technology which is internationally respected.

The South African fishing waters produce one of the richest harvests in the world. They comprise approximately 150 000 square nautical miles and extends from Walvis Bay on the West Coast to Durban on the East coast. The largest catches, however, are made along the West Coast The fishing industry of the Republic at present yields an annual return of almost R225 million. The industry meets a basic need for a popular protein food of a high quality.

Although the fishing industry is approximately 75 years old and is well organized to provide most areas of Southern Africa with fresh fish, it has still not succeeded in inducing South Africans to eat more fish. It is estimated that South Africans annually eat an average of 5 kg of fish per person as against an average of 25 kg in Norway and 32 kg in Japan. Furthermore, the fishing industry provides work opportunities of thousands of people, people who are directly or indirectly involved in the industry.

In order to ensure the maximum output from the natural source it is essential for continued research to be carried out. In order to maintain a balance between potential and healthy control, it is essential that continual research in the field of marine science should be undertaken on a large scale in South Africa. Source control requires research to be carried out into the biological and population dynamics of the sources. Research is undertaken by the Sea Fisheries Branch of the Department of Industry in Cape Town in respect of the biological, chemical and physical aspects of sea fisheries. The Sea Fisheries Branch has a research staff of approximately 64 scientists, 66 technicians, and it also has seven research vessels at its disposal. A smaller laboratory is situated in Walvis Bay and there are field stations at Saldanha, Hout Bay and Gans Bay. Research is undertaken with regard to the migration, feeding habits and the increase in the numbers of the various fish species, as well as with regard to parasites, sea-weed and seals. The research is aimed at laying down standards in respect of the size of fish shoals and optimum returns for the various branches of fisheries. The policy and legislation in respect of the fishing industry is based on results achieved by this research.

Other important functions of the Sea Fisheries Branch, are the registration of fishing boats, the issuing of licences, as well as the control over fishing equipment and over the amounts of fish and other marine species which are caught or processed. This is done by means of quotas, the determining of fishing seasons, restrictions on boats and mesh size. Furthermore, the Sea Fisheries Branch exercises control over the removal of sea-weed and shell grit, as well as the recovery of salt from sea water. The Sea Fisheries Branch encourages the maximum exploitation of all marine sources, but takes care that it is done within the limits of continued production. The inspectorate of the branch sees to it that these limits are not exceeded. The branch also sees to it, for example, that the necessary control measures are implemented for the preservation of a healthy lobster population and that the participants in this industry catch their annual quotas within a reasonable time and sell them at a reasonable profit.

The science of fishing is a profession which makes heavy demands on people. Data often has to be assembled in very difficult circumstances. It is a satisfying profession, however, a profession which tries the creative abilities of those people to the utmost. The fishing scientists and their helpers have a real and important contribution to make towards the protection and development of the marine fisheries of South Africa.

After foreign vessels had been exploiting deep-sea resources on a large scale for quite a few years, Parliament passed legislation in 1977 to extend the fishing zone to 200 sea miles. Foreign trawlers are now either excluded from this zone, or their numbers within the zone are reduced. The resulting reduced intensity of catching holds the promise of renewed growth and diversification in the fishing industry. The benefits which arise from a fishing zone of 200 sea miles, have not yet been fully investigated. The maximum utilization of these benefits will necessarily require a thorough investigation and a greater control initiative. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to raise a matter concerning what I want to describe as incorrect or misleading advertisements, advertisements which in my opinion constitute an offence in terms of the Trade Practices Act. In terms of this Act no one may publish or display an advertisement which is misleading or false in any essential respect. Similarly, no one may make a statement or give a description which is essentially false or misleading as regards the nature or characteristics of the product advertised. However, what do we see? We see that a shrewd group of manufacturers are operating in this country, manufacturers of chemical products described as non-dairy creamers, or animal fat creamers. By the use of shrewd and sly advertising they bluff the public, the informed as well as the less informed in the community, into believing that the nutritional value of the products they offer is higher than that of dairy products. These people are wolves in cows’ clothing. What is the true state of affairs? The truth is that the National Food Research Institute of the Scientific and Industrial Research Council has found that these chemical products are worth less than the dairy products. Their inferiority is in the most important sphere, namely their nutritional value. These manufacturers try to make one believe that one can use their product to make a cup of creamy coffee, but if it is a non-dairy product, where does the cream come from? After all, what they are so proud of is just that it is a non-dairy product! This is the point, because although these products are described as non-dairy products, one of the chemicals they use is caseinate which is a direct derivative of casein, the most important protein in milk. They tell the consumer that he can make a liquid coffee creamer by mixing two parts of warm water with one part of their product, and many people do this under the mistaken impression that they are saving by doing so. One can purchase 125 grams of these chemicals for about 35c and mix it with water to make a liquid mixture of 300 ml. Therefore for 35c one makes 300 ml of liquid, whereas a litre of nutritive milk is delivered to one’s doorstep for 31c. In other words, the consumer pays more than 330% more for the chemical product than for the nutritious, natural and tasty milk delivered at his front door.

Order! Hon. members must not converse so loudly.

The most tragic effect of this kind of manufacture and advertisement is to be found among the less informed persons in the community. By means of words and illustrations they are made to believe that these chemical products may be used instead of milk, the product which is recognized world-wide as the perfect baby food. If non-dairy creamers are to replace milk we can expect serious nutritional defects to arise, because these creamers do not compare with milk in nutritional value. This is the one great danger. The Institute for Nutritional Diseases is concerned about the possibility that a product such as this could be used in baby food. There is more and more evidence to show that factors relating to the development of the degenerative heart diseases should be combated right from the years of infanthood. The institute is concerned about the possibility that institutions such as hospitals could begin to use some of these substitutes instead of milk, because these products are regarded as totally unsuitable for use as baby food, let alone for use by people in the coronary high-risk group.

From an investigation carried out by an official of the Department of Health in Pretoria we can form an impression of the effect of the advertisements by this manufacturer. She conducted an interview with 102 women, and one must hear in mind that it is the woman who influences or takes the majority of purchasing decisions. She found that one-third of the women were under the following mistaken impressions. In the first place, they believed, incorrectly, that non-dairy creamers contain less energy than full cream milk. In the second place they believed that non-dairy creamers assist in reducing the blood cholesterol level, and in the third place they believed that non-dairy creamers can replace milk in the diet of babies with allergies. All this is the result of mistaken impressions created by intentionally incorrect advertising. The advertising of this synthetic product makes still further claims. They refer to a low kilojoule or calorie content for people who want to slim. If we measure this product against an equal volume of milk, we see that the chemical product provides 270% less protein of a high quality and 250% more fats or carbohydrates. This statement is supported by Prof. Koeppen of the University of Stellenbosch. It is therefore quite untrue to maintain that these products will not make one fat.

Despite a statement issued two months ago by the Secretary for Health, these manufacturers are continuing with their misleading marketing tactics. The Secretary for Health put it clearly that it was a misconception to think that all vegetable oils without exception were less harmful than milk fat. He pointed out that the coconut oil used in the so-called non-dairy creamers were certainly not less harmful than milk fat and that consequently they were definitely not justified in persuading the public to use smaller quantities of products such as milk, meat or eggs and instead purchase artificial substitutes such as coffee creamers, margarine or meat substitutes. The Secretary went on to point out that the public should be warned against the excessive use of food in general. The stress should be on moderation with all foods, and not the elimination of certain natural products such as meat, milk or eggs. There is no evidence in the medical world to show that the moderate use of natural products and of animal products specifically is harmful to man. No one will object to fair competition, but no one can condone competition entailing the use of misleading tactics. It has been happening for too long that all kinds of shoddy products sell like hot cakes due to incorrect and unproven claims, and enrich their manufacturers by riding on the back of the cholesterol myth. Through their misleading and false tactics they have already robbed the dairy industry of the sale of 600 litres of fresh milk per day. Since the introduction of yellow margarine the consumption of butter has dropped from 850 000 tons to 16 000 tons, or 80%. I should be the last to say that all this is due to this cholesterol myth, but it is largely due to it.

On behalf of the dairy industry, the farmers and the distributors, I say: Thus far and no further. They are now sick and tired of this and ready to launch an attack. The industry does not have millions of rands to spend on advertising as its competitors have, but it does have a precious image which it wants to protect and that image is one of nutritious, natural and tasty food. It is going to protect it. It is going to compete fairly, but these manufacturers cannot be permitted to mislead the public still further. [Interjections.] What I ask of the hon. the Minister is not protection, but to take cognizance of the fact that in terms of the Trade Practices Act, he has the power to ensure that when the consumer has to choose between dairy products and artificial substitutes he should have all those facts at his disposal. Misleading and suggestive advertisements must not be permitted. [Interjections.]

I want to make appeals with regard to both of these aspects. In the first place, I want to ask that no advertising be permitted which intimates, whether directly or by implication, that these chemical products are better than dairy products as far as nutritional value or health is concerned. In the second place, I want to ask that the use of the term “nondairy” not be permitted because it casts a definite reflection.

To protect the consumer against excessive unfounded and misleading claims in foodstuff advertising and labelling, I want to go still further by saying that it should be demanded that the labels on artificial substitutes for milk and cream should indicate what type and quantity of fats they contain. Where saturated fats such as coconut oil or palm oil are used, the labels should state clearly, for health reasons, that the product is not suitable as a substitute for dairy products and cannot be used in a low fat diet. [Interjections.] It is worth while protecting the truth. There is no evidence for the so-called harmful effect of the use of milk, butter, cheese, meat or eggs. It is in the interests of the consumer in general that such suggestive advertisements should not be permitted.

Mr. Chairman, I have a great deal of appreciation for the exceptional achievements of the hon. member for Parktown as reflected in a speech he made this evening. I think that quite probably he has now quoted for the first time the man who is the greatest authority on the economy of South Africa. He and I both agree on the statements by Dr. Brand. I have no fault to find with the statements made by the economic adviser. Nor have I any fault to find with the fact that the hon. member for Parktown has progressed so far that he is able to quote him, with permission. However, in the second place, I wish to say that when we quote the economic adviser, we should be very careful in the choice of our words. If not, we could run into confusion as regards the concepts. I think that in this particular context the hon. member for Parktown has, quite innocently, been guilty of what I am now going to allege with regard to him.

I want to begin where the hon. member for Parktown begun, by saying that it is not possible to see the economy of our country in general and the economic situation we experience and have to deal with, in isolation or separate from the political system that applies in this country. Indeed, I want to go further than the hon. member and assure him that there is an interdependence among the economic, political, international and psychological facets of a total strategy, which I think it behoves us to expound fully in this debate. I intend to take the opportunity to do just this tomorrow. There ought to be no misunderstanding about the fact that the Wiehahn report is the consequence of a directive from the NP and the Government. [Interjections.]

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.