reported that the Standing Committee on Vote No. 35.—“Public Works”, had agreed to the Vote.

Mr. Chairman, I claim the privilege of the half-hour.

Mr. Chairman, my first word is to extend a very sincere welcome to the hon. the Minister in his new post as he takes the Vote for the first time. This is a very new development in the history of education in South Africa. We have virtually a new department with new status. We have a new Minister who comes with freshness, a new commitment and new ideas and, we hope, a new approach. We also have a new name for the department which we have welcomed already in previous debates but which we welcome again. I say to the hon. the Minister that we wish him well. He has an unenviable task, a very difficult one. As I shall indicate a little later on in my remarks it is one fraught with enormous risks, but also with incredible opportunities. I also want to express my appreciation to the department and to the Secretary. I want in particular to say, through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Secretary how much I appreciate his readiness and willingness to enable me to visit a number of the schools in the Cape Peninsula, particularly in Langa, Nyanga and Guguletu. I was glad of the opportunity to do that and will refer to that a little later on in the debate.

Then I want to say a few words about the annual report. I want to say that it was helpful to have the report in our hands in good time so that we could study it and read it. This report covers the work of the department in remarkably fine detail and gives us all the information that we need for a debate of this kind. One must also say that the remarks by the Secretary in the report about the tremendous progress at all levels are amply borne out by the facts given in the report. Among the items referred to quite specifically are the increase in enrolment over the last ten years, which is quite phenomenal, and the increase in money allocated, an amount of R80 million in 1977. Reference is made to new schools, to a greater and wider distribution of free books, a decrease in double sessions, a lowering of the teacher/pupil ratio and then in particular, and perhaps most significantly, reference to compulsory education. This is something that has only been talked about in recent years, and I want to refer specifically to the reference in the report, which tells of an investigation into prevailing conditions in residential areas in order to establish whether compulsory education may be introduced without undue disarray in the schools and the communities concerned. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he would tell us what progress has been made, what stage the investigation has now reached, what conclusions, if any, have been arrived at and, if any conclusions have been reached, what action is to follow.

I think it is particularly important in this Vote, at a time when we face a new dispensation in Black education, with a department with a new name and a new Minister, and also with the promise of new legislation on education which the hon. the Minister told the House about a little earlier in the session. Under these circumstances it seems to me proper, on this occasion, to look back at the genesis of Bantu education in South Africa.

Dr. Verwoerd is the acknowledged architect and the Eiselen Commission played a very significant role. The basis of Bantu education—I do not think anyone would want to deny this—was the concept of separation. It was based, I submit, not on educational principles but on a scheme involving the social and economic opportunities for different members of the community. Let me quote Dr. Verwoerd himself, who sums it all up for us. He said then—

One final quotation from the late Dr. Verwoerd. He concluded—

as it was then called—

In other words, the education of Black South Africans had to be shaped in accordance with the grand design of apartheid, and the Bantu Education Act was duly passed in 1953.

In 1954 the control of Black education was moved from the provinces into the hands of the central Government which, in effect, meant into the hands of direct Nationalist control. In 1954 the Government also made a determined effort to counteract the influence of mission or church schools, many of which had provided a good, broad education for thousands of African pupils. Here, of course, Dr. Verwoerd was quite explicit in his criticism of the kind of education being offered at those schools.

Teachers training also came under the central Government, and despite the outcry from educationists, Black parents, teachers and community leaders, Bantu education became a fact of life in South Africa. Until 1970 expenditure on Black education was pegged and the gap between what was spent on White pupils and on Black pupils actually widened from about 7 to 1 to 15 to 1 during that period of time. If we are to be at all realistic in this debate today and if we are to move forward, as I believe we must, we must also understand what has happened since the inception of Bantu education and the effect that that has had upon hundreds of thousands of people in South Africa. Furthermore, whilst we must understand what it has accomplished in terms of numbers of schools and pupils, we must also admit the very sorry fact that it has earned for itself a legacy of hatred, distrust and suspicion. There can be no doubt about that. Anyone who wants to face up to the truth will not deny this. In fact, I think I have put it rather mildly. If one looks at the independence of Transkei, I think one will begin to see just how Bantu education is viewed. If one looks also at the independence of Bophuthatswana, one sees how Bantu education is viewed. Amongst the first actions both these newly independent States took was to move away from the system of Bantu education as they understood it and had experienced it. Whether or not the method of their moving away from it is the right one, is not at issue. The only point I want to make here is that both Transkei and Bophuthatswana immediately decided, and made their decision public, to institute commissions of inquiry to move away from Bantu education. I think that that speaks for itself. It is an indication of what the Black people themselves think about Bantu education. I underline again the very good things the annual report has in it and the indications of progress, but we must also look at the other side of Bantu education. In direct contrast to the excellent progress reported in the most recent annual report, there is another side we dare not ignore; there is a history of separation and a history of isolation and, flowing from that, there is also a history of frustration, bitterness and anger.

In preparation for this debate I visited a number of schools here in the Cape and also in the Transvaal. In the process I talked with a number of Black teachers and also with Black ex-teachers who left the department and schooling as a career for only one reason, viz. that in their own words they “could not take it any longer”. These Black teachers had a lot to lose. There is insecurity in the market place, but they left nevertheless. I listened to them for three hours. I also spoke to a lot of Black students who had also opted out of the system. Once again the same story was told, a story of an awareness of the blatant discrimination which has brought about deep resentment. Whatever else we say about intimidators, there is no question that, if one talks with the people concerned, it is clear that years of Bantu education have provided a fertile ground for what has been happening in our country in recent years.

If we are to tell the whole story, we must refer not only to the progress that has been made—it is right that we should tell that story—but that we should also talk about the high drop-out rate in Black schools. We should also remind ourselves in this debate that less than 1% of Black children who start school, reach matric. We also have to recall the incredible shortage of teachers which exists in Black schools today. We must also take cognizance of the fact that we have unqualified teachers of whom many are in our secondary schools. Many of these teachers are teaching senior classes and senior subjects such as maths and science although they have no qualifications which equip them for the task. Therefore one has a double frustration. One has a frustration in the teachers themselves who believe that they do not have the means and the ability to do the job which is required of them. Anyone of us who has studied teaching will realize, if one has a sense of insecurity or a lack of background or training, the terrible problem of facing a class every day. However, there is another side to the picture and it is one of the reasons why we have had so much trouble in the last few years. I refer to the fact that youngsters of 17, 18, 19 and 20 are in those classes and they have very little respect for the teachers because they are aware of the fact that they know more than the teachers as they know that the teachers do not have the qualifications. We should have the deepest sympathy for the teachers and for the young people themselves. [Interjections.] This is no laughing matter because it is a very serious issue which is facing South Africa. It is very serious indeed.

You must not lie like that.

Mr. Chairman, is the hon. member for Innesdal allowed to accuse the hon. member of lying?

Order! Did the hon. member for Innesdal say that the hon. member for Pinelands was not telling the truth?

Mr. Chairman, I said the hon. member must not lie like that about this matter.

Order! The hon. member must withdraw those words.

I withdraw them, Mr. Chairman.

It is regrettable in the extreme that the hon. member for Innesdal, who should know better, and hon. members on that side of the House are not prepared to face up to the facts of life. These are the facts and this is the truth of the matter.

The hon. member for Innesdal spoke the truth.

This is a very serious situation which holds in jeopardy the very survival of that side of the House and this side as well. That is how serious it is.

Is that what you were awarded the peace prize for?

If we are going to tell the whole story we can also speak about the shortage of accommodation. The other day I told a youngster: “For goodness sake, go back to your school. Why have you left?” He said that he could not take it any longer because he was sitting in a matric class in which three pupils were sitting at one desk. He said he could not do that. He also said that there was no electricity available and that he could not see to study. Therefore, he said, he would go and study at a private college in order to get the necessary qualifications. There is a drop-out of some of the very best young people and this can be attributed to the whole system of Black education. One is also aware of the lack of laboratories and libraries and we realize how indispensable these are for our secondary schools. When one looks at the lack of playing fields and salary discrimination one realizes just how serious the situation is and what a sad legacy we have as a result of Bantu education. We are quite rightly applauding the fact that more money has been made available for Black education. I said so right at the very beginning and I underline that statement again because it is good news. However, we must look at this in perspective. When one looks at what the Transvaal Department of Education spends in a single year, viz. nearly R239 million, then it puts the R77 million spent on Black education in some perspective. I accept and acknowledge the fact that this is not the only amount spent on Black education but I am talking about the amount mentioned in the report because that is the amount for which the department has specific responsibility. In short, the disparity between Black and White education is nothing short of breathtaking. Blacks have become far more aware than ever before that their situation is in direct contrast with the situation of their White counterparts.

It is no good quoting the figures of the rest of Africa. We have to look in terms of what is happening in our own country, because the perception of the Black youngster is shaped not by what is happening in far-off areas, but by what is happening in his own land, his own country. Whether we like it or not, this is his land as much as it is your land and my land.

It is calculated that the White child chosen at random in any White community simply by having been born White has a hundred times better chance of becoming a university graduate than an African child chosen in the same random manner.

It is a disgrace.

I agree that it is a disgrace. Of course it is a disgrace. [Interjections.]

Order!

What proposal can one advance in a debate of this kind? What can one say to the hon. the Minister? One can say that this is the kind of thing we believe needs to be done in terms of finance in order to rectify the situation. If one talks to people within the department itself one hears that they are so appalled by the magnitude of their task that they hardly know where to begin. They are people—Black or White—who have given a lifetime of service to the department. Every time it comes back to the whole system of finance. The present system of financing Black education is, I believe, totally inadequate. The department is, as I understand it, responsible for salaries, books, furniture, basic aids and laboratory facilities. The Bantu Administration Boards are responsible for the buildings, for maintaining community schools and for the provision of playing fields. In other words, what I am saying to the hon. the Minister is that I believe that he and his department should get a better deal. They should have far more money made available to them in order to do the things that are needed. I do not believe, with all the goodwill in the world, that it is the correct method of financing when a Bantu Administration Board has to go to the Department of Community Development to get a loan, who in turn has to go to the Treasury. When you come to the third and fourth groups, I do not think this method can hold the urgency of the priorities which any educationalist and anybody serving in the Department of Education know only too well. A classic example of this is: Who makes the decisions to rectify and to repair the buildings damaged in 1976? How is it possible that one can walk in a school today and find a blackened room with desks still exactly as they were when they were destroyed? Every time a child walks through that classroom it is a reminder of what was done in 1976. There is the constant temptation to resort to the same means, and we must not allow this. I believe that there are people in the department who want to see those buildings repaired. They realize that it is a symbol of despair and disaster, things we cannot afford. That is why I plead that the hon. the Minister be given his own budget in such a form that it covers not only education and the teachers, but also the buildings, facilities and the playing fields. Unless that happens all the good intentions will come to nought.

I also say to the hon. the Minister that his emphasis on teacher training must be redoubled and quadrupled, not only in terms of new teachers, but also in terms of increasing the qualifications of the teachers that we have right now. There is an over-supply of White teachers in South Africa—there is no question about it—and there is an under-supply of Black teachers. Why not use teachers where the shortage is greatest and where they can apply their skills?

If one is to attract the best kind of teachers, one has to have parity in salaries. I believe this is another priority. There must be the basic improvements, things which they can see. Imagine, Sir, how we would feel if our children did not have a school with electricity. How would we feel if our school principal did not have a telephone in his office? That is what is happening. We talk about security, of maintenance and of discipline, but the headmaster or headmistress does not even have a telephone in their office or in the whole school. What happens if there is trouble? To whom do they appeal? These are absolutely basic things, things which, apart from libraries and laboratories, are needed urgently. I ask the hon. the Minister to tell us about the damage done to buildings, about the buildings which have been repaired, the buildings which are still to be repaired, what the insurance is on buildings and how the situation is being coped with in general.

Finally, I should like to say that if one is to resolve this problem, there is only one guaranteed way of meeting the crisis, and that is for an immediate movement—this does not only involve the hon. the Minister and his department, but the whole Cabinet—towards one Department of National Education. When one talks with Black teachers, ex-teachers and young people themselves who are directly involved, they tell one that the polarization is so enormous that they are not prepared to talk about improvements or concessions. They only want to see one thing, i.e. that the whole present system must go and that there must be a movement towards one system of education in this land. [Interjections.] The urgency of this cannot be overemphasized. It is urgent, not only because it is right, but also because Blacks are opposed to the Government’s policy, and Black education bears the brunt of that attack. Black education is in the firing line and is extremely vulnerable. One finds a growing militancy among Blacks, more especially among the young. They are in the schools of the land and that is what makes Black education so absolutely important. I believe much more important than even defence bonds, are education bonds which can provide the necessary finance which will allow the hon. the Minister to do what I believe he wants to do in his own department. If it is true that Black education has to bear the brunt of Black opposition to Government policy, then it is equally true that Black education holds in its hand one of the crucial keys for the resolution of conflict by peaceful means in South Africa today. It is what this department under this hon. the Minister does which will determine whether or not South Africa moves through the present conflict by peaceful means or by revolution. I believe that if the Government would announce that it is to form a single department of education in South Africa, it would be a giant step in the direction of peace and security for Black and White alike. [Interjections.] If the Government does not act urgently, decisively and dramatically, then—I choose my words very carefully and I say it with all the seriousness which I can muster—it could bring nearer the possibility of a civil war in this land. [Interjections.] Só awesome is the responsibility of the hon. the Minister and his department and só great is the task which lies before all of us.

Mr. Chairman, on behalf of members on this side, I should like first of all to convey our special congratulations to the hon. the Minister on his appointment to the position which he now holds. I said on a previous occasion that I think we are very fortunate that he has been placed in a position to lead this extremely responsible department. We wish him strength. I also want to express a special word of congratulations to the department on this excellent report which they have placed at our disposal once again this year. The hon. member for Pinelands has also referred to that. The excellent work done by the department, does not pass unnoticed.

I now want to refer to the speech by the hon. member for Pinelands. He made the most scandalous and irresponsible speech I have ever heard in this House. I want to go further and state that it was an extremely treacherous speech. It was treacherous towards the Whites in South Africa. What is more, it was treacherous towards the Black people whose cause he was trying to champion.

You are frightened to death of the truth.

Order!

If that hon. member would keep his mouth shut, I should perhaps be able to see his face. Through his speech the hon. member for Pinelands has done nothing but incite revolution. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw that. By means of this speech, the hon. member has succeeded admirably in unleashing unrest among Whites as well as among Black people. It is scandalous that the chief spokesman on education of the Official Opposition should so piously—I suppose I may not say “hypocritically”—make a fuss right at the beginning of his speech about what excellent, positive things are being done by the Department of Education and Training —that is also very clear from their report— and then subsequently, start making venomous attacks left, right and centre. If we had had sufficient time at our disposal, we should have been able to react to every single one of the irresponsible remarks made by the hon. member for Pinelands. He refers to a shortage of school benches, and says that three pupils have to sit in one bench. He blames the department for that. I wonder whether the hon. member has given those pupils the necessary advice. Perhaps he told them to bum the benches. Why did this situation arise? Is it the fault of the Department of Education and Training? Who must be blamed for this? With his irresponsible remarks, the hon. member is aggravating still further the unrest which may possibly prevail among the Black people as a result of circumstances which have largely been created by themselves. I think that is extremely irresponsible. He makes the allegation that if a person is not born White, his road to university is closed. I think that is absolutely scandalous. The hon. member for Pinelands knows that there are four Black universities. He knows that every Black man has access to a university if he has obtained his matriculation certificate; that there is absolutely nothing which stands in his way. Nevertheless the hon. member comes here and makes this absurd allegation.

The hon. member has further stated that there is a surplus of White teachers in White education. The hon. member does not know what he is talking about. The hon. member has also voiced the idea that those White teachers should be transferred to the Black schools. I want to ask him in all sincerity whether he thinks it is in any way feasible to place a White teacher in front of a class of Black pupils. Does he think that if we were to do that in Soweto today, there would be quiet in the class-rooms? I am asking the hon. member for Pinelands.

It is happening now.

Of course it is not happening. The hon. member knows that as well as I do. [Interjections.] The hon. member has suggested, furthermore, that there should only be one department. Sir, herein lies the basic difference between that party and the NP. Surely the hon. member knows that from the point of view of any educationalist, it is not desirable, in education, to create an atmosphere which is not in harmony with the cultural background of the pupils involved. The hon. member is now making a face, but I want to read to him what he himself said in this House on 26 April 1977 (Hansard, Vol. 68, col. 6119)—

If we regard that as the point of departure, how on earth can the hon. member argue that we should have only one department and that we should ultimately have integrated schools? That is what the argument by the hon. member actually amounts to. There is no doubt about that. Now he advances such ridiculous arguments. However, I leave the hon. member at that. Perhaps, in the course of my speech, I shall react further to a few of the other allegations the hon. member has made.

Sir, education is part of a nation. Through the ages, the school has been the powerful medium for the building of separate cultures and nationalisms. The school is the extension-piece of the parental home, and because that is so, the school has a task of creating culture and encouraging a striving towards an identity. That applies to all nations and to all education systems. Education is nationally orientated. The basis, the aim and the endeavour of a nation must necessarily coincide with the basis, the aim and the endeavour of its education. If that is not the case, one will surely be training a rising generation to be in conflict with fundamental ideas of its own people. In that way one can only bring about division within a nation, and a nation which is divided in itself, must inevitably go under. Any educationalist of note will realize that. I want to refer to only one educationalist, and I quote what Mr. Harold H. Eibling, Superintendent of Schools, Columbus, Ohio and President of the American Association of School Administrators said in his presidential address of 1971. Among other things, he said—

Then he goes on to quote what President Dwight Eisenhower had stated, namely—

One can also quote what other educationalists have said. Professor Kwgare and also others, have also stated that.

When we come to the education of Black people, we should also face a few realities. From what I have already stated, it is clear that the education of every nation is distinctive distinctive in its striving, but also distinctive as far as its problem is concerned. For that reason, the education systems of two nations cannot lightly be compared to each other. In view of the distinctiveness of each such educational system, that simply will not work. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon. member a chance to complete his speech.

I thank the hon. member for Pinelands. The education of Black people has its own distinctive problems. The connection between home and school creates a problem for Black people, because during his pre-school years, the Black child is brought up at his mother’s knee in his own culture and tradition. But after that he lands up in a school with a Western atmosphere. Black schools therefore bear an exceptionally heavy responsibility in conveying a Western world view on the one hand and on the other, ensuring that this will not lead to an abandonment of his own spiritual values.

In the Journal of the Faculty of Education of the University of Zululand, one educationalist wrote as follows—

There is therefore no question of school integration. However, I do want to request the hon. the Minister to attend to this particular aspect, especially in so far as it affects some of the curricula of the human sciences subjects in Black schools.

I have already said that the education of Black people presents its own problems, and that we must keep certain realities in mind. In the first place, we are dealing with a developing group of people. This developing group of people whom we have to provide with education, has problems peculiar to it. The hon. member for Pinelands has himself referred to the first problem. That is the enormous population explosion in their ranks. In 1954, there were only 960 000 Black pupils in South Africa. In 1977, however, there were already 4,5 million, of which 1,25 million were in White areas. Furthermore, the percentage of Black children of schoolgoing age, is at present 28% as against only 21% in the case of White children. That, therefore, emphasizes the problem of numbers. The annual increase in the number of Black pupils in White areas alone, is approximately 106 000.

The hon. member for Pinelands is so quick to talk of additional classrooms. He refers to the shortage of classrooms, the shortage of teachers, the shortage of this and the shortage of that. But he does not present the whole picture. He merely extracts negative criticism from it, without putting the entire situation in perspective. Does the hon. member realize that even if we only think in terms of 106 000 extra pupils per annum, it means approximately 2 600 extra teachers and 2 600 extra classrooms per annum?—and that is only in the White areas. That is how vast the problem is.

A further problem has also become evident. That is the change in emphasis from mass education—that is the group between Sub A and Std. II—to higher—primary and secondary education. Between 1967 and 1977, the increase in numbers in secondary schools alone, was no less than 580%. I also have further statistics which I could quote, but unfortunately time does not permit.

Furthermore, there is also the problem of the availability of teachers. When the hon. member for Pinelands makes such a fuss of the supposed difference between the standard of education in Black schools and in White schools, we must also look for the reason in the availability of teachers and the academic qualifications of teachers. Therefore it is not so much a matter of the difference in standards, but a difference in quality, and especially the quality of the teachers themselves. I say that with great respect and piety towards the Black teachers.

It is of course not true that the Department of Education and Training is doing nothing about the matter. As far as the training of teachers is concerned, I wish to point out that in 1955, there were only 5 400 student teachers as against the approximately 18 000 of 1977. There are no fewer than 36 institutions for the training of Black teachers. Seven of those are in White areas and 29 in the self-governing Bantu territories.

I regret that time does not permit me to enlarge on this theme. However, I know that hon. members on my side of the House will reply effectively to the further arguments advanced by the hon. member for Pinelands.

Mr. Chairman, in the course of my brief speech I shall refer to certain aspects which the hon. member for Pinelands has raised, and also subscribe to what the hon. member for Virginia put so strikingly. The basic problems with which we are struggling in the education and training of Blacks in South Africa can easily be pointed out. They have already been pointed out, but I want to repeat. In the first place, there are the enormous, I am tempted to say overwhelming, numbers of schoolgoing children and children seeking education. In the second place—and these things go hand in hand—there is the shortage of accommodation and equipment. In the third place, there is the lack of the necessary funds to supply this vast demand. Fourthly, there is the lack of sufficient trained teachers. These are basically the problems with which we have to struggle. But we should try to retain our perspective. The problems referred to in connection with training and education are being experienced in every developing country in the world today, and they are not confined solely to South Africa. In fact, I think South Africa compares very favourably with the rest of the world in respect of the solution to this problem. This side of the House will point out thoroughly, fully and effectively to what extent the Government has succeeded in making headway against these problems.

I want to confine myself to the methods and plans suggested by the. Official Opposition. To these sanctimonious politicians but fatuous educationalists, the solution to all our problems in connection with Black education and training lies in school integration: White, Brown and Black all together in the same school, in the same classroom. [Interjections.] This House has just heard this policy confirmed through a chorus of “yes’s” from that side of the House in reply to a question across the floor. Let us ask ourselves what is the verdict of Black educationalists of world calibre on integration in schools. I am not talking about Black politicians, but about Black educationalists. I quote Prof. Kgware, principal of the University of the North, in Rapport of 30 January 1977. I am quoting his very words …

Yes, you quoted him last year, too.

Yes, I know, but the hon. member has not replied to that yet. I quote—

Mr. Chairman, please note, a crime—

He continues—

But we also get opinions from other Black educationalists throughout Africa which should serve to refute the argument by the hon. member for Pinelands that White, Brown and Black should not be combined in one department. In 1961, educational experts of independent States in Africa decided in Addis Abeba that the educational systems which they had inherited from the colonial days were not suitable for African nations, precisely because they did not satisfy their distinctive needs and circumstances. In 1962, a similar conference of Black educationalists in Tananarive decided about the question of higher education that the method of approach at university level should be that it must satisfy the distinctive needs of the nation. From an educational point of view, this decision was absolutely correct, because it is and remains basically true and correct that all education and training should be nationally oriented. But we can go even further. What is the verdict and experience in America, where school integration is legally enforceable? I quote the American periodical Saturday Review—

The consensus of opinion is against school integration, and at this stage I should like to put a few questions to the Official Opposition, hoping that they will furnish the replies in this debate, because it affects the central function of the State, namely the education of people. My first question is: Are they going to make school integration legally enforceable?

Come now, what does the hon. member for Pinelands say?

Is there a reply? [Interjections.] Secondly, if they make it enforceable, are they going to exempt private schools from enforced integration? [Interjections.] That is very pertinent. It is very important to know that. If so, are they going to prohibit the establishment of private schools by legislation in order to prevent what happened in America, i.e., that new private schools are established to enable the rich to escape the consequences of their policy?

Is that what you would like?

It is their policy, and that is we are asking. [Interjections.] We are asking for replies to all these questions.

The answer is yes. We shall provide for you too.

Are they going to retain the system … [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr. Chairman, I am asking: Are they going to retain the school committee system and, if so, if only Whites were to be elected to the school committee of an integrated school, would they appoint non-Whites to the school committee to give effect to their policy of having representatives of all population groups on boards and committees?

The sixth question: In the implementation of their policy, would they make it a requirement that the staff should consist of White and non-Whites in proportion to the enrolments of the various population groups? Then I come to the last question. Would they convey their children by bus to bring about integration? [Interjections.] Suppose Pinelands were to have a White school with two vacant classrooms. Would they transport Black pupils from Guguletu to Pinelands by bus? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Kimberley North has put a number of questions to the Official Opposition and I believe that they will probably reply to those questions in the course of the debate. [Interjections.] I should like to begin by addressing an urgent appeal to hon. members on the opposite side to be very circumspect as regards the way in which they defend the system of education and training as it is being applied in South Africa. I am aware of the fact that the hon. the Minister hopes that by changing the name of the department from Bantu Education to Education and Training, the feeling that has arisen among the Blacks over the years that Bantu education is an inferior type of education and that its architects deliberately intended it to be inferior, will be dispelled. Of course, I share that hope with the hon. the Minister. However, I am realistic enough to realize that a mere change in name will not be sufficient. For that reason, I am asking the hon. members on the opposite side to be careful, because the opponents of the system of separate education for Blacks use the arguments advanced on the opposite side to justify the system, to prove effectively that it is indeed intended to be an inferior system.

†I am also going to quote from speeches of the late Dr. Verwoerd and ex-Minister Willie Maree to illustrate how effectively opponents of this system used these arguments to provide proof that Bantu education was meant to be inferior. In the first instance I want to quote from a paper that was delivered in 1975—significantly, that was before the riots—at a symposium of the Young South Africans of the United Party on the subject of the urban Blacks. Mr. Theo Shandu, the president of the Natal African Teachers’ Union, on that occasion delivered a paper on urban Black education. I want hon. members opposite to note how he interpreted those speeches by Dr. Verwoerd and others. He quoted them as proof of his statement that it was clear that the aim of urban African education was to check any development of the African. That was the conclusion he arrived at. One may agree or disagree with that, but one must take cognizance of the fact that that was how he interpreted it. I am going to quote very much from the same speeches the hon. member for Pinelands quoted from, except that I am going to quote from different parts. On 17 September 1953 Dr. Verwoerd said (Hansard, col. 3576)—

Then, on 7 June 1954, condemning the previous system of education, Dr. Verwoerd said in the Other Place—

Finally, on 17 June 1959, Mr. Willie Maree said (Hansard, col. 8318)—

It is quite clear and I concede immediately that a number of hon. members opposite will be able to put a different interpretation on these quotations. In spite of that, the fact remains that, seen historically against the background of 25 years of this particular system, as far as a person like Mr. Shandu is concerned, to use him as an example, he regards these statements as proof that the system was deliberately designed to be inferior. Where does the mistake lie? I do not want us to make mistakes like this in the future again. It is clear that through the years the yardstick used in Black education was not the yardstick of what the Bantu as such desired but of what a lot of Nationalist politicians believed to be in the best interests of the Bantu.

I just want to demonstrate it. Knowing the basic political philosophy of a person such as Mr. Willie Maree, I can see why he got up and in terms of his philosophy said that a Bantu child must be educated to remain a Bantu child. That view was compatible with his belief. Also, for instance, that a White child should be educated to be a good Nationalist. I have heard that type of reasoning.

Shame!

Hon. members say “shame”, but that is not the case. It may also be argued that education should be aimed at producing “goeie Afrikaners”. I can understand why he said it. [Interjections.] Hon. members must listen to the interpretation given by Mr. Shandu. He came to the following conclusion—

That is a legitimate desire, and this is why I appeal to hon. members opposite not to get up here and, in their keenness to defend the system, use terminology which can only harm the whole system of education in South Africa. I appreciate that the dilemma of the Government in regard to the determination of an educational policy for Blacks and the execution of the administrative control connected with it, is that this matter is also closely associated with the fact that the urban Blacks will for ever remain in a political vacuum. Under these circumstances it is very difficult for the hon. the Minister to bring about educational changes without leaving the impression, rightly or wrongly, that what is happening is that the White man is making all the decisions for the Black man. As a first step in overcoming this difficulty, I wish to urge the hon. the Minister to take the necessary steps to have a commission appointed to inquire into the system, or the state of education and training for Blacks, and to make recommendations concerning the system to be used. It goes without saying that it should be a multi-racial commission, or if hon. members do not like the word “multiracial”, they could call it a multi-national commission. However, by doing this—and this is the reason—the hon. the Minister will have an opportunity of getting out of his dilemma, because he will then for once be furnished with recommendations which he can claim are not just the White man’s recommendations, but recommendations flowing from an in-depth investigation. The Eiselen Commission was appointed and sat for two years, from 1949 to 1951. That resulted in the system of Bantu education. Of course, that commission was an all-White commission, and it is no wonder that it failed and created suspicion. This we dare not do again because I do not think that we can continue to be as lucky as we have been to be granted second opportunities.

I want to make it quite clear that my party, the NRP, believes in federalism and con-federalism. We believe in the decentralization of educational control and also in the decentralization of policy making. What we want for Whites is also obviously what we would like to see for Blacks and other federal or confederal components of our federation. We obviously believe that there must be co-ordination at a national level so that one may achieve uniformity of standards. We do not share the view that one should suddenly abolish the White Departments of Education of the various provinces and bring it under the control of a single Department of Education in respect of the whole of South Africa. What we as federalists would rather like to see is a decentralization of decision making. I want to state our policy in this regard quite clearly because we believe that whatever system is applied and whatever method of control is being used in respect of the Whites, will also have to be used for the other components of the federation. We would never like to see a situation where there is uniformity and control from one central point as such, rough-shod over all the other components in South Africa, because that is something we regard as dictation from above which is a form of tyranny. That we would like to avoid altogether. I mention this in particular because people should know where we stand in this respect. I contend that during the last year or two, in fact for a number of years now, there has been, as other members present have indicated, a consistent improvement in Black education. During the past two or three years I, for one, have refrained from making any statistical comparison because I believe that it would have been unfair. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I listened attentively to the speech by the hon. member for Pinelands, that of the hon. member for Durbanville and also those of members on this side of the House, the hon. member for Virginia and the hon. member for Kimberley North. The Minister will probably be here shortly but I just want to repeat at this point what I said at the beginning of the year when I congratulated him on his appointment as Minister of this department. This morning I can repeat those congratulatory words, and I can repeat them with acclamation. We are proud to have a Minister who has been able to familiarize himself with the department to such an extent, and within so short a time, that he is able to discuss the department with authority and with sound knowledge.

Mr. Chairman, hon. members opposite try to give the impression that they are the only people who can speak on behalf of the Black people here. They try to give the impression that they are voicing the inner feelings of the Black people. I want to maintain, however, that they are not only out of touch with the thinking of the Whites in regard to Black and Brown people but they are also out of touch with the Black people themselves and that they are not mouthpieces for Black people in South Africa. Do they know what Black people think? Here is a Zulu who is not a backward Zulu but an author, viz. Credo Mutwa. He has published a number of works. In his book My People, he has the following to say—

[Interjections.] That is remarkable, is it not? He goes on, and I quote—

This Black man’s judgment is better than that of hon. members opposite. Does the hon. member for Pinelands say that he does not believe this or does he wish to intimate that this Black man himself does not believe what he says? Is he prepared to administer such a slap in the fact to this Black man? [Interjections.] He has more sense than that, of course. An effort is being made to create the impression that Dr. Verwoerd and Mr. W. A. Maree advocated a policy in accordance with which no opportunities for Black people were envisaged in South Africa. I shall have something to say in a moment to the hon. member for Pinelands. That is not a threat, but merely a prospect for him, for a little later.

I am quaking in my bench.

Is it out of excitement that I should get to my point? From the outset we have said that these are the clear guidelines of our policy and that our policy does not consist of integration. Our policy is not multiracialism. Our policy does not consist of a process of mixing at every level of society, nor it is a mixing of all peoples in South Africa. Our policy is not integrated schools. Our policy is Christian national education, a nationally oriented education in South Africa for the various peoples. This standpoint is being recognized to an increasing extent, not only at school level but also at the universities, viz. that people appreciate their own communities, that they seek only the best for their own communities and that they realize that the best people to serve those communities are their own people, when they are qualified and equipped for their task. Until such time as sufficient people come to the fore from the ranks of these peoples and communities to carry the responsibilities in those communities, the White man is available to furnish leadership in the direction of self-determination and self-sufficiency, and this also applies in the sphere of education and training in South Africa.

The impression is being created here that everything is negative. The hon. member for Pinelands did, it is true, express a little appreciation towards the right side concerning what the department is doing—it seems to me that the hon. member has only two left-hand sides. In any event he was unable to find much fault with it.

He has four left-hand sides: two in front and two behind him.

Yes, he is plural as far as his sides are concerned.

I should like to draw the attention of hon. members to what has been accomplished, in the university sphere in particular. Certainly there is no one here who will maintain that the Black peoples or the Brown people have developed fully in the university sphere. I am not speaking on behalf of the Brown people now. The hon. the Minister of Coloured Relations is sitting in front of me here. He did his job thoroughly when his Vote was under discussion. It goes without saying, however, that in the short time that these people have had at their disposal under the guidance of NP policy, they have made remarkable progress. Surely it goes without saying that they have not yet reached the end of the road. The ideal which we are striving to achieve together with those people has not yet been realized ether. We are still moving towards that goal. I want to mention a few things which in my opinion constitute achievements at the level of universities and university affairs. The other day we appointed a Black chancellor, Dr. Madika, at the University of the North. I think it is an achievement that a man came to the fore from that community sufficiently capable to become chancellor of that university. This of course follows the appointment of a Black rector for the University of the North, Prof. Kgware. I had the privilege of visiting that university and the rector made a very favourable impression on me. I am sure that the Whites, Prof. Steenekamp and others, are happy to co-operate with the Black rector to develop the university in the interests of the community or communities which that university must serve. I can say the same of the new rector of the University of Zululand. I had the privilege of attending his inauguration. It was a fine and well-executed ceremony. I can give hon. members the assurance that it was my impression that Prof. Nkabinde was recognized in that community as a man who gives leadership and a man of whom the University of Zululand and the community of kwaZulu are proud. On this occasion I want to congratulate him sincerely on his appointment from the ranks of that community to serve that community. Furthermore, I want to say that these men enjoy not only the respect of the members of their own nation but also the respect and aid of the Whites on the staff. We shall try to see to it that those Whites and the Black lecturers are content in the service they are rendering those peoples.

The second achievement I want to refer to is the number of students enrolled at these universities. It is true that there has been a drop in the number of students at some of the universities compared with the number last year. However, the circumstances are known to us. We know that many students did not write examinations and there are other factors, too, which have caused a small drop in the number of students at certain universities. The University of Fort Hare has 1 800 students, the University of Zululand 1 284; the University of the North 1 445 and Medunsa, 145—an exceptionally high number. This gives a grand total of 4 675 students at these universities. These figures confirm my opinion that these universities are being recognized to an increasing degree by their own people and their students.

I want to refer to another achievement, namely the qualifications achieved by students at these universities. No fewer than 460 Bachelor degrees were conferred only last year. Of these, 204 were conferred at the University of Fort Hare, 94 at the University of Zululand and 162 at the University of the North. Furthermore, 98 honours degrees were conferred—that includes B.D., B.Ed. and LL.B. degrees—at these universities. Apart from the 230 diplomas and certificates, eight masters degrees and two doctors degrees were conferred last year. Surely this is a positive aspect to which one can draw attention. Can hon. members imagine how good it would have made lecturers and students at these institutions feel if there had been a word of encouragement from the White Parliament, from the Opposition side as well, saying: “You are doing fine work. We view it with favour. We are unanimous in our striving to provide trained, equipped people for those communities.” [Time expired.]

I rise merely to afford the hon. the Deputy Minister the opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the concession. My sincere thanks. I want to point out the fourth achievement in regard to the universities, viz. that salary parity has been established for lecturers. It is true that this has not yet been budgeted for fully, but the universities can supplement the salaries of lecturers from their own funds in order to equalize them. The salaries of lecturers are being supplemented from an amount of R2 649 000 so as to achieve salary parity—that is apart from current expenditure also being covered from these funds.

The fifth achievement in regard to non-White universities is the growing acceptance of universities by their respective communities and peoples. That is the impression I gained during a visit to the University of Zululand. The community there thronged around that tent literally in their thousands and it was an experience to hear how that community applauded everyone who received a degree there. As a guest on that occasion I felt that it was a fine thing to see a community that was proud of the academic achievements of its own people.

In my opinion, the sixth achievement is in the sphere of research undertaken by these universities. It is true that the research is not yet on a large scale. Nor are there many Black lecturers involved in research. Moreover there is a need for funds, for Black researchers as well. A very wide-ranging programme of research is being carried out in regard to development in the Black communities. A Black scholar at the University of Fort Hare is working on an investigation relating to “The Teaching of Reading in the Vernacular in Primary Schools in the Ciskei”. There are other interesting subjects, too, that are being researched. In education system planning, consideration must be given to philosophical dynamics underlying Black societies. I could continue in this vein to show that research is being done which is development-oriented, which includes the study of development in the training at universities.

I thought the hon. member for Pinelands would avail himself of this opportunity to repeat what he said to The Star on 22 May 1978. In that interview the hon. member reacted to a speech I made at Stellenbosch. With his chest puffed out, he said that I was a “stumbling stone in the way of progress and enlightenment in race relations”. He carried on in that vein. I can tell the hon. member exactly what I said there. I have an unabridged copy of the speech I made there. I said, inter alia, the following—

In other words, there must not be Prog universities—

I quoted the words of Prof. H. B. Thom. Prof. Thom, a highly regarded and respected rector of that university said that a university must be very much in earnest as regards its community and that it must win the confidence of its community. I quoted Dr. Verwoerd in that connection. If the hon. member wants to think that I am lagging behind my party or that I am perhaps too far ahead, I want to tell him that I am, in any case, in step with the thinking of Dr. Verwoerd. His words were quoted with approbation in an editorial in Die Burger by Dr. W. E. G. Louw. Dr. Verwoerd said on occasion—

He went on to say—

[Inaudible.]

Yes, this is my party’s policy and it is a good and an outstanding policy. On that occasion Dr. W. E. G. Louw wrote the following in Die Burger—

This is NP thinking. If, therefore, the hon. member is of the opinion that I am in the way of my own people, he should rather think again. However, it is my contention that the hon. member for Pinelands is out of step with the thinking in the ranks of the Black people. Will the hon. member not go and read what Dr. Thomas Lambo of the University of Ibadan, said on one occasion about this same imposition of Western systems of education on the indigenous peoples of Africa? He launched an acrimonious and devastating attack on this same imposition of Western systems of education on the Black people of Africa. He said—

Is that what the PFP wants to bring about in South Africa by means of its policy? Is that what they want to cause, a spiritual, an existential vacuum among people in South Africa by seeking to wean those people from their own culture, seeking to include them in a White community, or seeking to swallow up the White community in the mass in South Africa?

That is not the policy of the NP. Here is a Black man who says that that is foolishness. However, listen to what Chief Gatsha Buthelezi has to say. This is the man whose bandwagon the hon. member for Pinelands tried to get on to. He fell off, of course, and I am by no means certain that Chief Gatsha Buthelezi did not give him a push to make him fall off.

He is still hanging onto the back of the bandwagon!

The hon. the Minister says that he is still hanging on to the back of the bandwagon. That of course is very dangerous. [Interjections.] What does Chief Gatsha Buthelezi have to say? I refer to what he said on the occasion of a graduation ceremony at the University of Zululand. He said—

That is right. I agree with that!

The hon. member for Pinelands agrees with this. Then the hon. member really should not speak so much nonsense in this House. [Interjections.] Chief Buthulezi says—

However, that is not the language of the PFP. [Interjections.] We are dealing here with a Zulu Nationalist. However, the hon. member for Pinelands does not belong anywhere. I think he should change his name to Niemand, with apologies to an hon. member of this House with the same name. “Wees uself, seg ik tot iemand, maar hy kon nie, want hy was niemand.” In that respect the hon. member does not belong anywhere either. In this case a Black man came along, kicked him off his bandwagon and said that there was no place for such people.

This Zulu leader is fed to the teeth, fed to the teeth with pink liberals who do not see their way clear, and are not capable, of going all the way with them. After all, the hon. member for Pinelands cannot walk the same road with Gatsha Buthelezi. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Pinelands said in this House that he was a White man.

The moment someone says he is a White man, he identifies himself, unless he is a White man who is committing treason against his own people.

I do not have the time now to reply to everything the hon. member for Pinelands said. However, I should like to ask him who he thinks he is. Who does the hon. member for Pinelands think he is that he can wag his finger in my face and tell me that I am upsetting race relations in South Africa? Who is he to say that, when last year the hon. the Minister of Justice told him his fortune in this House? He did not dispute it.

That is an untruth!

Does the hon. member wish to deny that what the hon. the Minister of Justice said was correct? The hon. the Minister of Justice said—

The hon. member’s speech this morning attests to that too. [Interjections.] It attests to his effort to bring about polarization between Whites and non-Whites. The hon. the Minister of Justice told him—

That is what the hon. the Minister of Justice said. The hon. the Minister of Justice went on to say, and this is a very serious matter—

And this is not the only statement I have heard in this regard—

That is an absolute lie!

That is what the hon. member says now. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Pinelands must withdraw those words!

Mr. Chairman, I said it was an absolute lie that I had attended multiracial parties which were given over …

Did the hon. member say that the hon. the Deputy Minister was lying?

I said that what he was quoting was a lie.

Mr. Chairman … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Deputy Minister in the earlier part of his speech listed a catalogue of achievements of the Government’s policy with regard to education for Black people, particularly relating to the higher institutions, the universities which has been created. I do not begrudge the hon. the Deputy Minister listing those achievements. After all, if one is going to have separate university institutions in a country then it is just as well that those institutions be good institutions. We on this side of the House give credit for the fact that there is a Black chancellor at the University of the North and that there is a Black rector at the University of Zululand. There is nothing wrong with that; it is a healthy development within the confines of Government policy. Equally, the hon. the Deputy Minister has listed the fact that the enrolment at the universities has been an encouraging one. We on this side of the House are certainly not surprised at that and we are certainly not sorry that that is the case. The hon. the Deputy Minister has also listed the achievements and the results which have been achieved at these universities. We on this side of the House welcome those results.

The hon. the Deputy Minister has said in fairly injured tones that it would be so nice if the lecturers and professors at these universities could sometimes receive some word of encouragement from the Opposition parties in South Africa. Certainly we do not deny them that encouragement. These are institutions which are serving a purpose in our community, and if they are run on efficient lines and if they can serve the community needs, we would certainly be amongst the first to congratulate those responsible for those results. Equally, we are not surprised at the high enrolment, because we are well aware that there is a search for knowledge, particularly amongst the Black people of South Africa, and it is as well that they make use of whatever opportunities are provided for them. However, when the hon. the Deputy Minister referred to the comments made by Chief Buthelezi at the University of Zululand ceremony I hoped that he did not really believe that Chief Buthelezi was accepting and approving of ethnic institutions. Certainly Chief Buthelezi in his comments referred to the need for a university to be part of a community. However, the hon. the Deputy Minister should know as well as I know that the philosophy of Chief Buthelezi is not a philosophy which is based entirely upon ethnic considerations. When he talks about a community, in education or in politics, he is talking about the South African community as a whole and he welcome the university in that sense.

You have a surprise coming.

The hon. the Deputy Minister quoted a Zulu author who said that apartheid was what Blacks wanted and that what the Blacks did not want was discrimination. That may be the opinion of the author concerned, but I wonder whether the hon. the Deputy Minister seriously believes that that is an accurate reflection of what the Black people in South Africa want at the present time. My fear is that he does believe this. Despite all that has happened in South Africa, my fear is that the hon. the Deputy Minister still believes that the Blacks want apartheid in this country. If that is the case, it shows just how much out of touch the hon. the Deputy Minister is with Black opinion.

However, I do not wish to make debating points, because, after all, we are dealing with a subject here today which is perhaps more important than any other national issue in South Africa at the present time. So I believe that we should not be devoting our time to making political debating points, but should be viewing the problem in its full perspective in the interests of South Africa. I would say that any objective judgment about the crisis situation in which South Africa finds itself at the present time, would rate the need to defend our borders against external aggression, vitally important though that is, as being possibly secondary to the need to educate and uplift the mass of our Black populations, to integrate them into our society and give them the opportunities which are needed. I believe that this has a definite higher priority, Sir. For that reason I consider that the responsibility of this hon. Minister and his department is of the highest possible order. For that reason, too, I believe that this hon. Minister and his department need a hand free of the mistakes and hang-ups of the past and that they need to show that they have the will and the freedom to move quickly in a direction which will bring the masses of the South African population the confidence and the security of knowing that they and their children have the right of access to the best education which is on offer. That, I believe, is a challenge which has got to be met by this hon. Minister and his department. Mr. Chairman, I think it is a twinfold challenge which has to be met and perhaps transcends the mere field of education, and that is why this Minister and his department need more than ordinary opportunities and encouragement as educationists. There must be a realization of the very vital and critical priority which must be given to the need to provide urgent and extensive educational opportunities to our Black populations. I have said that the challenge is a twinfold one. Firstly, I think it is so because it must take cognizance of the real and tremendous gap which still exists between educational opportunities which are provided for the White minority on the other hand and the Black majority on the other hand.

We have got to face that fact; it is the fact of the situation and this is part of the challenge. The figures, of which some have been quoted already, indicate that R117 million during the year 1976-’77 was spent on Black education as against R824 million on White education. The per capita figure shows that some R57 is spent on every Black child in South Africa as against some R654 for every White child. This is the gap which has got to be bridged, and I think all sides of the House agree.

The second aspect which makes this an important challenge is that the response to the challenge has got to meet the political needs of showing and proving that there is no differentiation between the standard and type of education provided for White and Black pupils in South Africa. I know what political arguments can be advanced in this sphere. I know that figures can be quoted and that they can be impressive. They can be impressive perhaps particularly to self-satisfied White people. In many cases the figures are accurate. I know that they can show progress in the numbers of pupils who now attend our schools if you compare it with those who attended our schools some 10, 20 or 30 years ago. I know that they can quote statistics to show that the facilities provided and the opportunities provided are better than those opportunities provided Blacks in other parts of Africa. These are debating points which can be made, but I believe that in any case we in South Africa should want to see that we are in the vanguard of educational development for our Black peoples, that we should be ahead and that we should not be so concerned about comparisons with other countries. I think that we have got to look at the situation which exists in South Africa at the present time. What we must do in this field is to get away from making political and debating points and to deal with the real issue, because when we are dealing with the issue of Black education in South Africa, we are dealing with an issue which contains within it the very basis of the success, or otherwise, of our common desire to secure real and lasting peace and security in this subcontinent.

Mr. Chairman, you and all sides of the House will have heard various solutions advanced by various parties in regard to providing for the future security of South Africa. We can talk and we can think in terms of having a super efficient Defence Force which is going to do this. We can spend another R2 000 million per annum on that Defence Force. We can also talk in terms of new constitutions, or in terms of national conventions, or in terms of this safeguard or that safeguard, as all political parties tend to do. All of these things may be good in themselves, but the only real safeguard for our security in South Africa is to ensure that the mass of our people have the same opportunity of participating in and appreciating the civilized standards which we seek to secure in South Africa. That is why I believe that the whole field of education for the Black people at the present time is of the very highest priority in this country. I believe that we have to ensure that we provide the opportunities quickly. I believe that we have to move to free, compulsory education for Black people as soon as possible. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, when one deals with the arguments of the hon. the Opposition, one cannot but gain the impression that they want their bread buttered on both sides. In other words, they want to have their cake and eat it. It is often said by members of the Opposition that taxes are too high and weigh too heavily on our people. On the one hand they complain about high taxation, and on the other hand they complain that not enough is being done for education. I should like to hear from them, however, where we should cut down.

Should we cut down on defence, should we cut down on White education or should we cut down on the provision of housing? Where precisely should we cut down in order to educate all these people as we should all like to do?

There is also another question that I should like to put to the hon. Opposition. Where in the whole world, or in the history of the world, has one nation done so much for education and training as has been done in this country? I shall be pleased to have examples. I want to maintain that we are going out of our way. I urge hon. members to take another look at the report of the department. If one looks at the report, one sees what is being done in regard to education and training for the Black people in this country. It is being done because we all realize how important it is. If members of the hon. Opposition would only take the trouble to look at the information on trade instruction, technical training, advanced technical training and industrial training, they will see what is really being done in this country for the advancement of the intellect of the Black man. Then they would also be sympathetic towards the problem of the Government that is responsible. It is very easy to launch tirades about the fact that not enough is being done, as the hon. member for Pinelands did, if one does not carry the responsibility for it. Unlike the hon. Opposition, I want to congratulate the department and the new Minister on what has already been achieved in Black education.

I wonder whether the hon. Opposition realizes that 21,7% of the total Black population is school-going. I wonder whether the hon. the Opposition also realizes that almost 50% of the total Black population is under 15 years of age. One will never hear from them, however, that there should be more responsible parenthood. One would never hear that request. Nor would the Official Opposition ever appeal to the Black people to search their own hearts, as the Afrikaner did in this country, and educate their own people to be able to serve their own nations and their own Black States to the best of their ability. No, Sir, they will not make that appeal. Everything must be done by the Government.

The Department of Education and Training has a problem of numbers. This has already been referred to. The department does take account of changed and changing circumstances and conditions as far as the training and development of the various nations in South Africa is concerned, the Black nations in particular. The department also deals with problems such as how to motivate people to show more interest in technical training. Just as we discovered that the Whites have a negative attitude towards technical training, the Bantu, too, have an absolutely negative attitude towards technical training and trade instruction. They all want to try to follow white-collar careers. In this regard they are not realistic. It is important that we and every developing Black nation in South Africa should take the realities into account.

Then there is also the problem of the higher average school-going age of the Bantu. Many of them are at school long after they should have been working and productive. It is a problem to train these people quickly enough to equip them for the labour market so that they can look after themselves and make a living consonant with human dignity—so much is always being said about human dignity. This higher age group is also more susceptible to intimidation and agitation. They become agitators themselves after a while.

Then we have another problem which is also spoken about, viz. that schools are still standing in their burnt-out state. I wonder where the necessary funds must be obtained. Every possible and impossible method is being used to make as much money as possible available for the education and training of Black people and to utilize the available funds as well as possible.

There is another problem that the Opposition does not want to take cognizance of, viz. the problem of essential differentiation. This has been spoken about already, but I just want to warn that if one snatches a nation’s children from their homes and places them in a completely different milieu, one is playing with fire. There must be continuity between home and school. If there is none, one issues a certificate to a faceless person. It is true that there should be no difference as far as the quality of the content of the certificate is concerned. There may be no difference in the quality of the certificate that is issued, but the certificate that is issued to me, has certain other additional qualifications by implication and this is true in the case of all other ethnic groups as well.

Today I want to make a very serious request of the Black people not to allow themselves to be wrongly educated and not to make the wrong choice of profession. They must not receive the wrong training. South Africa cannot afford it, the Black communities themselves cannot afford it and the person who is being trained cannot afford it either. The young people must see to it that they are trained in the right direction in order to have a profession to which they will be able to adopt and for which they have the ability. They must not simply strive for academic literacy which may ultimately mean nothing. One thinks of the utilization of manpower and the potential of machines. Mention has been made of machines that can be used to accomplish certain tasks. If there are no people, however, who can handle those machines competently, they would be useless no matter how modern the machines one has may be. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the argument is often advanced that Black education is inferior and this allegation is also made by hon. members in the Opposition benches. We are aware of these allegations and we know that they are often made. Therefore one must take note of them because one cannot do otherwise. It is also necessary, however, to point out to those who use these arguments that the same core syllabuses are used for White as well as Black education. I also think it is necessary for us to refer once again to the fact that the same syllabuses are in fact prescribed and that the same examinations are conducted for Black and White in std. 9 and matric. Indeed it is being demanded more often as the hon. member for Durban Central correctly said, that the Department of Education and Training should be incorporated in the Department of National Education. We are aware of those demands, but the Government has adopted the standpoint that such a step would be contrary to the policy of separate development which envisages that the separate population groups should have the maximum say in their own affairs. The standpoint is also adopted that such a step would not be in the interests of the Black man as a cultural being. Finally, education is not only aimed at expanding knowledge, but particularly in allowing man to develop as a being. Furthermore, education is also aimed at the formation of the man. On one occasion someone said—

I want to say that it would be nothing but cultural imperialism if the Whites of this country were to follow an educational policy and impose it upon all Black people. The hon. member for Durban Central also said that many Black people want to establish their education policy on a world citizenship to which their population group wants to belong. This is true because there are many people who speak like this. Then, however, it would be sensible to allow these people, if they handle their own educational affairs, to arrange their policy along those lines.

If Black education is in fact inferior, it is only to be ascribed to the fact that compulsory education has not yet been introduced everywhere and the fact that Black teachers are on average less skilled than their White counterparts. Furthermore, there is also a shortage of funds for Black education in the economic situation which we are experiencing at the moment. It is a situation which we will probably have for a long time to come. Serious attention is nevertheless being given to these aspects as is apparent from the annual report and as was also indicated by hon. members here today.

Where the Government’s standpoint of separate education departments is accepted, the argument is very widely advanced that the Black people do not have a say in their own educational system. This accusation really does have much substance. The exercise of control over the standard of education, the prescribing of syllabuses and courses and the control of examinations on a post-primary level, excluding std. 9 and matric, are undertaken by the Examination Board on behalf of the department. We must also look at who serves on this Examination Board. There are, inter alia, the deans of education of the universities of Fort Hare, Zululand and the North, the Secretaries of Education of all the self-governing Black States as well as of the Republics of the Transkei and Bophuthatswana. There is also a representative of the principals of Black schools in White areas. Furthermore, there is a representative of A.T.A.S.A., the Black teachers’ association. There is also a representative of the Advisory Board, which is an exclusively Black body, as well as a representative of the Black inspectorate of the department. In carrying out its functions as regards the drawing up of syllabuses for education, the Examination Board is also assisted by the skills of subject committees. There are 22 such subject committees, two of which consist exclusively of Black members. Almost a third of the total number of members of all subject committees are Black people. School committees—hon. members and the public at large are acquainted with these bodies—are being established for every community school in order to assist the school board with the control and management of the school. Nine of the members who serve on each of these committees, are parents elected at a parents’ meeting. At the moment there are 1 448 such committees. The school boards for the relevant school board areas are elected from the ranks of the school committees and a further three members are nominated in every school board. The elected members, all of whom are Black members of school committees, vary in number from six to twelve, depending on the number of schools within the relevant school board area. These committees have the power to appoint and discharge teachers, a power which White control bodies do not have.

Having said all this, it is also necessary to point out that Government spokesmen have said on several occasions that the Black man in the White area will be vested with increasing powers and more of a say in his own affairs. Then, too, reference has been made to the possibility of transferring control over education to local authorities. We must handle this aspect carefully. The question arises as to whether it is desirable, from an educational point of view, to transfer such an important function to a local authority set-up. Still in line with our policy, consideration may in the meantime be given to involving the Black educational experts more and more in the control and administration of the department. In this way, not only will their say in their own affairs be increased, it may also result in the important function of the training of educational administrative staff, for utilization by the Black states, being expanded further. George Bernard Shaw said the following on one occasion—

Therefore, dialogue is essential. On various occasions the hon. the Minister and his department have declared themselves prepared—and they have done so repeatedly—to conduct a dialogue to promote education and training. I also want to make an appeal to Black educational experts to accept this invitation and to keep the dialogue open at all times in the future.

Mr. Chairman, when one studies the annual report of the department, one is impressed by the progress that has been made in many of the fields which are covered, and the realistic tone of approach of the report also gives rise to approval. One realizes that overall a certain degree of progress has been made over the years. For this achievement I think the officials of the department deserve praise for their efforts. I think one should say, too, that the system under which they work, the perhaps insufficient budgets to which they are restricted, in many ways tie their hands and makes them less effective than they would otherwise be.

If one looks at the situation today, one realizes that in many respects the policies of the past are coming home in the form of chickens to roost, and perhaps not only to roost, but also to haunt us. Listening to some of the quotes read out today by hon. members regarding the past policies of the decisionmakers of this particular department, one could almost say that their ghosts wafted an eerie way through this Chamber today. In certain respects it is obvious that there are shortfalls and shortcomings in the policy of the department, and I think it is shown more clearly, more than in any other aspect, in the situation that we have today regarding the shortage of and the critical position in which Black doctors find themselves in this country. When one looks at the figure of the availability of Black doctors to serve their own people, one finds that the figure is one doctor to 44 000 Blacks. This makes one realize just how critical the situation is. In fact, I believe it is not only critical, but also chronic. I say this because if one looks at the situation as it existed during the last few years and puts it into perspective, one sees that there is not a great deal of improvement on the horizon. In 1976 approximately 23 Black doctors qualified. If one takes into account that the natural increase of the Black population in that year was in the region of 500 000 people, one sees that this gives a ratio of approximately one qualified doctor for every 25 000 natural increase in population. If one, furthermore, relates one in 25 000 to one in 44 000 one sees that the position is not improving as it should, i.e. dramatically. It is also necessary to look at the situation as it is likely to be in 1980—three short years away. A reasonable estimate is that there would be 20 million Blacks in South Africa at that time. If we were to reach the same target in 1980, i.e. a ratio of only one qualified doctor for every 25 000 Blacks, we would need, in the next three years, to double the number of qualified Black doctors in South Africa. There would have to be an improvement, over the present position, of from 400 to 800 qualified Black doctors. When one realizes that only 23 Black doctors qualified in 1976, one realizes that the situation in those terms is indeed critical. There is no other way of describing it.

Let us take another example. If one were to remove at the mythical date of 1980 all the Blacks into homeland areas, which would mean an estimated figure of 10 million Blacks in the homelands, and one allocated every single qualified Black doctor to those people at that stage, one realizes that one would still be in a position where the ratio would be absolutely appalling.

The annual report of the department deals with the Medical University of Southern Africa and the point is made that the university will be enrolling 60 second-year medical students. In the report it is stated that this is the largest number of Black medical students that have been registered in any one year at any university in South Africa. In a sense I suppose one could say that that is an achievement, but one must look at the implications of this, and take into consideration that they are 60 second-year students. In Natal one has the medical school attached to the University of Natal. Figures there indicate that in 1976 there were approximately 250 medical students of all years. 22 students qualified that year. So, one could say that there is a ratio of one student qualifying for every 10 students at the medical school. The latest figure for enrolment at the University of Natal is about 272 students. So, one can see that the increase in numbers is not very great and if only 10% of these students ultimately qualify, it gives a very small number of doctors. The situation is just not improving. The ratio is totally unacceptable, and one only has to compare the situation with the number of White doctors available—although this is perhaps not a fair comparison to make—to realize it. However, what we should be debating and what we should be asking is: What is being done to improve the ratio quickly? What urgent steps are being taken to ensure that the maximum number of Black doctors qualify every year from now onwards so that this appalling ratio of one doctor for every 44 000 of the population can be brought down to something that is more acceptable? It is fair enough to ask this question, because it is no good talking about a policy of independence for the homelands if these homelands are not truly independent. Any situation in which they are faced with this ratio of available Black doctors for their own people, does not indicate a true independence. It is a pseudo-independence, because it is obvious from these figures that they are going to be dependent on the goodwill and services of doctors of other race groups. The picture as it is at the moment shows that this situation will last for ever, but let us hope that we can improve the picture.

The NRP would give universities the option to enrol Blacks as students—this obviously includes all the universities which have a faculty of medicine. Why is this not being done now? Why can the Government not take the step as in the case of Coloured students enrolling at Stellenbosch University? Why does the Government not take its courage in both hands and say that those universities which have a medical faculty are open to Black medical students, in an attempt to alleviate this situation? 575 Whites qualified in 1976 as against 23 Blacks. Many of the Black students cannot study at the Medical University of South Africa because of distances and the costs involved. I ask the Government to take its courage in both hands and allow Black medical students to enrol again at universities at which medicine is taught. This could be one way of overcoming this drastic and appalling shortage. One wonders whether people are really aware of how bad the situation is. We glibly talk of the homelands becoming independent, and I suppose the idea is basically that once they are independent, our responsibilities to them are at an end. But I do not see it that way. Recent events, such as the floods in Transkei, show that these people do have a dependence upon us. Nowhere will this be more clearly shown than in the field of medicine in which they have a need for qualified Black doctors. This is just one professional need they will have once they obtain independence.

What urgent steps are being taken to do something about this ratio? Are the more talented and hard-working students being encouraged to study medicine? Are sufficient bursaries available to them if they require them in order to attend university and become doctors? Can the facilities at Medunsa be greatly expanded if it becomes necessary? Are people aware of the need for action to be taken now and over a prolongued period of time in order to alleviate the situation which I have revealed today? [Time expired.]

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, at this stage I think I should begin to reply to matters which were raised in this debate. In the initial stage of my speech I also want to thank hon. members who participated in the discussion for doing so. Various hon. members again congratulated me, since I am now dealing with this Vote of the department for the first time.

†The hon. member for Pinelands has also directed some sentiments in my direction, for which I thank him. I also wish to express my appreciation towards him for having said that he is conscious of the enormity of my task. I appreciate the fact that he at least realizes that. However, I must add that he did not make my task any easier today, and I shall come back to that.

*However, I appreciate his kind words.

Mention was also made of the annual report, and everyone who did so said that it was an exceptional annual report with a great deal of data. I think we boast that when it comes to the statistics in our annual report there is no other department of education that can beat us as far as the volume of data and the clear exposition of statistics are concerned. Quite a few matters were raised, some fairly general and others more specific, with which I shall still deal.

The hon. member for Pinelands began by referring to where Bantu education, as he called it, had its origin. He also referred to what Dr. Verwoerd had said. What Dr. Verwoerd said, probably applied in particular to the time in which he said it. One should not try to project something which someone said for the circumstances of his day, so far into the future that one in fact stretches it to breaking point in order to cover today’s circumstances as well. Inter alia, Dr. Verwoerd spoke of a policy for Bantu education “for the immediate future”. What does the situation look like now, and not only as it is confined to 1978 only? What grew from those circumstances over the years, as the numbers in secondary education and also in the universities gradually multiplied, indicates that Dr. Verwoerd took the realities of those specific circumstances into consideration and did not want to commit his view of matters to all times. We would do well to perceive the word “immediate” there. What is also forgotten, however, is that in one of his statements Dr. Verwoerd also analysed the system of that time and exposed many of the weaknesses of that system. What he said about that system some people allege he said in regard to Bantu education. I think that is extremely unfair.

I was referring to the beginning.

In the beginning, yes, but we are inclined to use Dr. Verwoerd’s words and then want to project them as though Dr. Verwoerd were still here in 1978 using precisely the same words, while I say that we must be honest and that we should see those words against the background of his time and the circumstances of those days. He referred to the “immediate future”, that which I am now dealing with in practice.

Reference was also made to the suspicion of and the acceptability of Bantu education. The great leaps of progress which this department has made are sometimes referred to as a kind of comfort. But that praise is cut short very quickly indeed. In fact, extremely little is said about that, except to refer to the “excellent progress and so on”. With that the matter has been disposed of, and then one gets the venom. I do not know why the hon. member for Pinelands was so venomous today. If I read the speech he made last year—I happen to have it here—I find that he referred to a number of matters in a very fair way, including certain of the matters he raised today. Nevertheless I got a different impression today, viz. as though this department in what it is doing, even under difficult circumstances, is making good progress. I have not heard a word about syllabuses yet today. In fact, we heard very little today of quite a number of matters which were complained of in the past, not that everything is satisfactory now, but we have made progress and people have perceived this, and because we are making progress now, our opponents must try all the harder to prevent this. Our people are making progress. They are convincing others. That things are bad and the prospects poor, is no longer being accepted. That people are being prejudiced and their development retarded to such an extent, is no longer being accepted.

We must now climb in with a vengeance in the political sphere—that is the impression I got from the hon. member for Pinelands. He created this impression: We must now take preventive action for all we are worth, because progress is being made from one year to another. They can point to their results. Just now we might be discredited, because all the things we have been saying are eventually not going to sound like the truth. We must now conjure up a few other spectres because we must keep on frightening people. We must build up mistrust and stir up feelings among other people against the Department of Education and Training, according to the hon. member for Pinelands.

The hon. member referred to teachers who had resigned, teachers who could no longer endure this so-called system. However, it was interesting to note that many of the people who left because they could no longer endure the system, later reluctantly returned. We have all the evidence of this.

Why?

Why? Because most of those people had had to leave their posts as a result of intimidation. That is the reason. It was not because they could no longer endure what the department offered them. They could no longer stand it because other people made it completely untenable for them.

The hon. member also spoke about the “drop-out rate” and about the percentage of the school population which eventually reach matriculation. The hon. member spoke about 1%. He was wrong. The percentage is not very high. It is 2,6%, again a considerable improvement.

Where does that figure come from?

The figure is correct. I hope the hon. member is not doing what a certain publication …

That figure does not appear in the annual report.

I am not saying that it appears in the annual report. I obtained the figure from my department, and I accept it as being correct. The hon. member for Pinelands should not do what a certain publication did. I am referring to an article under the heading “Racism, Apartheid and Mental Health” in a publication of the UN. I am not quite certain of this, but I think it came from the UN. The title of the publication is World Health, and I am referring to the December 1977 issue.

It is disgraceful the way those people carry on. The figures they quote are figures relating to the old dispensation, the dispensation before the Department of Bantu Education was brought into existence at the time. They carry on alarmingly with those figures. I can quote an example. Inter alia, they say—

We rectified this matter in a reply to these people. In it we stated—

The figure of 4,5% refers to the time when the Department of Bantu Education came into existence. In this way I can mention many other examples. I am not accusing the hon. member for Pinelands of deliberately quoting incorrect figures. I am simply pointing out that one should be very careful because there are people who use figures that have nothing whatsoever to do with the matter.

The hon. member went further and spoke of an untenable situation which allegedly exists in the schools in respect of the attitude of pupils to their teachers. He spoke of teachers who are so poorly qualified that the pupils whom they have to teach know far more than they do, and that this leads to ill-feeling as well as to deterioration of discipline. Whose fault is that? Is it the department’s fault?

I did not say that.

Then the hon. member reproached us for something we do not really deserve to be reproached for. I say—and this is perhaps a contentious issue—that I am now tired of “students” in our schools. I should like to have “pupils” in our schools again. This is weighing very heavily on my mind, and I am considering introducing an age limit for admission to a school. If a person is older than a specific age, he will not easily be admitted to a school. I am also considering an age limit so that a person who has reached a certain age will have to leave school. If I were to do this I would not be doing anyone a disfavour, for in our training centres for adults any person may today continue his education up to matriculation level. If we therefore have to normalize our schools— something which hon. members very much want—we shall have to do so throughout, as is the case with the White education system. Let us consequently normalize certain of these matters, for that is where our problem lies. There are many people in these schools who in my opinion would rather look at the young lady teachers than at their reading books. They would do better to look up the young teacher after school hours. It is not necessary to use classroom time to do that. I am prepared to say this to the White pupils as well. In my days there were such scholars with me at school. I am not disparaging any specific group when I say this.

Are you speaking from personal experience? [Interjections.]

Koos van der Merwe sat next to me in class during the week and went courting in the district over the weekends. It is a pity that that hon. member should have made that unpleasant remark. It is strange that when he opens his mouth, he says such things. I shall preferably contain myself. We are experiencing a problem here in respect of “overagedness” in the schools. We shall have to devise some plan here, because things cannot carry on in this way. I do not want to deprive any person of any piece of education which he is able to acquire. If it is not possible to establish an age limit for school admission, or if I am going to prejudice people in that way, I shall not set any limit. But if they are able, perhaps with just a little more effort, to acquire free education in our educational institutions for adults, we shall have to give serious consideration to that because there is room at the schools in the evenings, while there is not always room during the daytime.

I want to reply further to the points raised by the hon. member for Pinelands. He mentioned the shortage of accommodation, and I want to admit that it is a problem. It is a major problem, and we have never denied this. In conjunction with that he raised the question of riot damage, something which is still visible to the hon. member there. Shortly after I was appointed Minister I undertook a tour of inspection of the local Bantu residential areas. I wish hon. members could see what rubbish one of the spiritual companions of that member wrote in a letter with reference to my tour there. What people presume to say or suck out of their thumb, is alarming. However, I shall leave it at that. I went to have a look, and I realized at once that matters could not be allowed to carry on in that way, because there were visible signs of circumstances which we would prefer to forget.

When was this?

It was at the beginning of this year. I want to state candidly that it worried me. The hon. member said that there were burnt-out school desks standing there that had not even been removed. It does not require cranes, trailers or bulldozers to remove a burnt-out school desk. Two hands can also do it. Although there might have been structural damage to buildings as well, it is a great pity that some of the other mess had not been cleared up by the people from the schools themselves.

How does one get rid of a scorched (verbrande) Minister?

I am pleased to see that the hon. member for Pinelands is trying to keep the hon. member for Bryanston quiet, because what we find in his head are not really good things. I hope the hon. member for Pinelands succeeds in doing so.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon. member for Bryanston entitled to ask: “How does one get rid of a scorched Minister?”

Order! Did the hon. member say that?

Yes.

Then the hon. member must withdraw it.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw it.

The school principal, his staff and pupils ought to be proud to remove the worst of what happened to the best of their ability, regardless of who was responsible for the damage. There is a standing decision that those who were responsible for the damage should compensate for it. That decision is there, and to get past it, I negotiated with the hon. the Minister of Finance and the hon. the Minister of Community Development, and as a result a notification has already been sent to the administration boards to the effect that the Treasury has sanctioned the Department of Community Development making money available to the administration boards to restore riot damage at schools. Therefore that process is already in progress. I do not know whether any applications have reached the Department of Community Development yet, but the administration boards which have to deal with those matters, are aware of this. Attention was therefore given to this matter from an early stage, and it ought therefore to be rectified soon.

In the second place the hon. member referred to the administration boards which are at present responsible for the provision of accommodation at schools. I am not going to describe the entire procedure which they have to adopt in order to do so now. Immediately after I took over as Minister I discussed a whole series of matters with the Secretary. We put our heads together, and this was one of the matters we singled out for attention, i.e. that if we ever want to eliminate the shortage of accommodation, or want to provide even better accommodation, we shall have to negotiate a different method of providing money. Consequently documents in this regard have already been drawn up. The matter has been studied in depth and the process is continuing. We simply keep on hoping. At present I do not want to say anything further because it is not only I who have to make the decisions in this regard. We are setting our affairs in order—our facts and motivations—and we believe that it will also be possible to dispose of this matter to our satisfaction.

I come now to the question of teachers, the shortage of teachers and the standard of teachers.

†Quality is dependent upon devotion to duty, qualifications and the attitude and conduct of—in this case—the teaching staff. I think these three basic principles can be taken as prerequisites for quality. There are complaints of course that in our department there are so many teachers who are not fully qualified. That is indeed the case, and I want to pay homage to those teachers who perhaps do not have the qualifications, but who have nevertheless been doing a magnificent job in our department. I am prepared to go and point out individuals. There is, for example, a principal of a school, a lady, who has only a Std. 6 qualification with three years’ teacher’s training. I am prepared to compare her school and her school grounds with those of a particular principal with more than one degree. He is a learned man, but one can see the difference. If I have to make the choice where I would send my child, I would immediately choose the school where the woman is in charge.

*What is important, therefore, is not always the actual qualifications that have been obtained. These are of course important when it comes to the background knowledge of the subject which is being taught, but when we speak of non-qualified teachers, we should not simply dismiss all of them as a group of people who are in the way and who are doing more harm than good.

Next I want to point out that we should inquire to a greater extent of the people who wish to enter education concerning their matriculation qualifications. We should like to have matriculants for training. At this juncture, however, we cannot as yet forego the people who have a Std. 8 qualification and to whom we must also give teacher training. The realities of the situation still require this of us. But I want to point out that in 1975-’76, 22% more matriculants came forward than in the previous year. That is the matriculation production, if I may call it that. In 1976-’77 the production was 25%. It is already up by 3% in comparison with that in 1975-’76. As that production increases, as we are able to train more of the aggregate group of pupils up to matriculation, we shall be able to attract more people out of that group to the teachers’ training colleges and the standard of our teachers ought to improve steadily.

Another important aspect is that over 60% of the teaching corps in our employ at present are our products, since they are 29 years old and younger. They are therefore the products of the department. It is gratifying that so many have already come out of the department in order to serve the department in turn in the sphere of education.

We are doing far more than that to improve the qualifications of the teachers. Those who take a degree course at Unisa receive a bonus of 50% as encouragement for each school subject in which they pass at university level. We have many thousands of them. I imagine that there were 3 200 last year who had enrolled at our centres for adult training to obtain their matriculation qualification. There are other bursary schemes, etc., available as well. These are the methods which are being employed to allow teachers who are already in the service of the department to obtain better qualifications because that is to the benefit of everyone.

The question of the employment of White teachers was also discussed. It was said that at present there is an overproduction of White teachers. The impression which I have is that the teachers who cannot be employed by the White department are in fact the teachers with lower qualifications. If there is a glut, they take the best and we have to use those who remain. In this connection I want to bring certain facts to the attention of hon. members. A White school principal was once appointed at a specific school in Soweto. This evoked a tremendous reaction. The Black people complained that they were being deprived of a privilege since one of their people could have filled the post. Even Black teachers wrote to the newspapers about the injustice which had been done to them by appointing that White person there. Even if hon. members opposite were therefore to advocate this, it is not easily acceptable to those people. Very often they even admit that, even if the Black man has lower qualifications, he, rather than the White man, should be given the post. Atasa, the professional teachers’ association of Black teachers, dissociated itself from the resignation of teachers. I am merely mentioning this and I want to emphasize that many more resignations may be attributed to intimidation than to an untenable situation within the department. Even if we were to use Whites, those Whites would be only a drop in the ocean. Therefore it will not help very much, even if we were to do everything the hon. member for Pinelands wants us to do. In fact, it would not even come closer to meeting those objectives. It will only be a drop in the ocean if one were to use Whites, and we are already using Whites if we have to. However, the hon. member must remember that one cannot use Whites in the primary schools because education there is given in the mother tongue. As far as I know there are very few Whites who can speak the language which they have to speak to those youngsters. The question has frequently been asked whether the Black child, who, considering the world in which he lives and his background, is taken out of that world to receive his school education in a White orientated school, can adapt himself to this White orientated society in which he has to make a living. In fact, should it not perhaps be a White person who opens up this new world for him? There are people who allege that it cannot be a White, because the Whites do not understand the world in which the Black child lives, his background and way of thinking. It must therefore be a Black person. On the other hand, others ask whether the Whites should not do this when they reach high school. I am simply referring to schools of thought which are aimed at equipping people in the best possible way to take their place in this world in which they will one day have to make a living.

The hon. member went further and made “one national education department” his main idea. He also referred to this last year. He did not refer again to quite a number of matters which he raised last year, because they had in the meantime been rectified. Because he realizes that we are making progress, he now has to bestir himself to roll new stumbling blocks—for that is almost what I want to call them—in our way.

I should like to ask a few fair questions. Why does the hon. member want “one national department of education”? The most national department of education is in fact the Department of Education and Training. There are Whites who say that they wish their education were organized on the basis on which the education of the Black people is organized. In the case of the Whites the Department of National Education has delegated education to the provinces. In reality the Department of National Education does not deal with a single ordinary school. That department has control over the universities, technical training and also a number of—if one can call them this—special schools. However, that department does not control a single ordinary school, such as those which we are now discussing.

I want to return to what the hon. member for Pinelands said last year, because this is something which was also raised here again today. He said that he admitted that a pupil had to be trained with regard to the world in which he lives and his cultural background. This is important, for if this is the case, we have to take heed of what the hon. member for Houghton said here today by way of an interjection when she said that there ought to be integrated schools.

Where, then, does culture come into it? Surely what we are saying then is nothing more than idle talk. Surely those hon. members are then bluffing people if they want to allege that in the political dispensation which they advocate, the identity and ethnicity of people should at least be a factor that counts. Surely they are then going to stifle it in the most vulnerable place. Of what avail is their talking about culture and cultural backgrounds, other environments, views and traditions, etc., if they immediately want to cause it to miscarry by throwing everything into one pot where not only that culture, but also the culture of so many others whom they wish to mix together, will in that way be lost? Is it not true what a well-known educationalist once said of Bantu education in a major work on the anthropological, pedagogical substructure of Bantu education? I am sorry that I do not have the work with me. I wish that all hon. members in this House could read this book. I have a copy of a few pages here, and I should like to quote from them. He said, inter alia, the following—

This is the reality: This is why this world resolves itself into various components. But what are those hon. members engaged in doing, what are they proclaiming? Over the centuries education has been used as an instrument to effect change, change for the better as well. Here, however, it is not only being utilized to the good, but to the detriment of people and to the impoverishment of people in South Africa. It will mean that there is a total negation of culture in South Africa. That is what it is going to amount to. It is no use those hon. members mouthing the word culture here, going just round the comer and killing it in an integrated school. I quote further—

Hon. members must listen to this—

There hon. members have it. It is of no avail hon. members professing to be the champions of culture, of the recognition of culture and the background from which an individual springs. In this connection we are dealing with a problem which is spread all along the line. We are dealing, inter alia, with people who are to a large extent already accultured towards the Western way of doing things, way of life, etc. Lower down we are also dealing with people who are at a long remove from these elements. These are the people whom those hon. members now wish to educate in White orientated schools. It will amount to a complete modification of the world in which they live. Those hon. members consequently wish to shake him loose entirely from what he knows and then wish to lead him into the agglomerate of world citizenship which they advocate.

Your practice is totally inconsistent.

In what respect?

Does the hon. the Minister not regard it as being inconsistent that one has people in one’s school from a number of different backgrounds, including German, Dutch, English, Afrikaans only because they are White, but as soon as they are Black they have different cultures?

The fundamental cultural backgrounds of the people in the White school has the same origin. The only difference between them could perhaps be their language. The culture of the other people whom hon. members now wish to bring together, however, is totally different. The people to whom the hon. member for Pinelands referred in the first place, came from a European culture. That was where they had their origin. These people have over many generations learnt to take over their culture from one another. The hon. member now wishes to confuse their culture with an African culture. The African culture is in the most cases not assimilable at all.

What about the Coloureds?

The hon. member must talk to me about the Black people.

What is wrong with the Coloureds?

I shall leave the question of the use of the mother tongue at that for the time being for I doubt whether hon. members will at this stage still kick up a fuss about it. They probably accept by now that the mother tongue must be used for the first few years at school.

For at least four years.

For the first four years. And then? Should it then be abolished? The hon. member should listen to the following quotation from an article “Education and the Africa”, which appeared in a well-known educational publication—

We accept that—

That is what I am talking about. We are tearing them between two different worlds. The article goes on to state—

What is being discussed here is the language, but what is being said here, is equally applicable to the environment in which we place him, as well as the circumstances and milieu in which he has to acquire knowledge. Do those hon. members believe they are doing the Black child a favour by advocating one department and integrated schools? The Black child will have to relinquish many of these benefits because he has to be subservient to an ideology. If the Government’s system of education and what we are stipulating is not isolated from a political system, the hon. members must not tell us that what they are stipulating is isolated from a political system and an ideology. Surely they also want to achieve something in that way.

Will the “one national education department” to which the hon. member for Pinelands referred also be constituted in the same way as the present department? Will the department which the hon. member is envisaging take over from the present department with Whites only in the top structure and no non-White inspectors or anything? How will the department have to be changed to give the Black man more say than at present. Hon. members find it easy to talk because they have something against this department. However, they do not know precisely what. But what they are proposing as an alternative they have never given proper thought to either. [Interjections.] While I am on the subject I want to point out to the hon. member that if this “new national education department” to which he is referring were to be put into operation—whatever it may look like—the problems to which the hon. member referred will not simply disappear like mist before the morning sun. Where is the hon. member suddenly going to find all the qualified teachers?

Is the stream of “drop-outs” to which the hon. member referred suddenly going to be stemmed? Are all pupils suddenly going to remain at school and be inspired with an exceptional spirit of scholarliness? I can go on in this vein. Therefore I want to ask hon. members to discuss a little more of the reality, what we have to deal with every day, rather than to propose new structures which are not going to solve any of our problems.

Money is important to me. Today I could use millions of rands very well for the provision of better facilities. In respect of the teaching corps, however, it is still a long-term project, and there is little I will be able to do to solve the problem soon. I cannot buy qualified teachers; they are not available on the supermarket shelves. They must come from the community with which we are working here, and with which we in the department wish to provide the best under all circumstances.

We must also be careful that we do not in the end compare incomparable things with each other. This is something which we are rather inclined to do in South Africa. It will probably never be otherwise, for, unfortunately, what the Whites are securing and establishing, and what the Blacks have at their stage of development, are always going to be compared with one another. However, we must be careful that we do not foment greater ill-feeling on matters which are incomparable among those who do not yet have what the Whites already have at their disposal. I shall later discuss in general a few of the other matters which the hon. member for Pinelands raised later.

The hon. member for Virginia apologized for not being able to be present now since he unfortunately had a plane to catch. I am grateful for what the hon. member said in respect of autogenous—and ultimately equal—education. He spoke as an educationist with sound knowledge of reality because he had always, until recently, been completely engaged in that profession. He asked whether we should not take a look at the content of certain human science subjects which are being taught in the schools. This is another matter which does deserve attention. The syllabus deals with the contents of each subject. The syllabus is the entire plan according to which one operates a school. It has a bearing on extramural activities, the spirit prevailing in the school, discipline and everything which contributes to the make-up of a school. It is worthwhile looking into certain of these matters because I frequently think we overlook them. Very often we only consider the contents of a school subject and how much we can cram into a pupil’s head. A syllabus should not only be representative of a learning situation, but also of an educational situation. I thank the hon. member for Virginia for having referred to this.

The hon. member for Kimberley North also apologized for his absence. He referred to sanctimonious politicians who were poor pedagogues—I do not know whether he meant the hon. member for Pinelands. At times it sounded to me almost like the hon. member. The hon. member for Pinelands should go back and examine these questions, as the hon. member for Kimberley North asked him to do. Very specific questions were put to these hon. gentlemen, and they shall have to reply to them.

They cannot.

Yes, I think they will experience difficulty in doing so. However, I shall leave it to them to reply to those questions and ask the hon. member for Kimberley North to keep a vigilant eye on them so that he does receive the replies.

The hon. member for Durban Central referred to Dr. Verwoerd as the architect. I am not going to discuss this again. I referred to this at the beginning of my speech. He asked where the fault lay. He argued that the Black man states that he wants to become a world citizen. According to him the Black man says: “I want to fit in in the world community.” He said that in terms of our education policy the Black man cannot fit into the “world community”. But anyone is able to fit into the world community without relinquishing his identity. I am a perfectly ordinary Afrikaner and yet I think that somehow I also fit into the “world community” somewhere. Every hon. member sitting here fits into the “world community” in his own way. The “world community” consists of so many kinds, whether they are from the East, from Africa or from the West.

Therefore a Black man need not feel that he does not fit into the “world community” simply because he went to school under the control of the Department of Education and Training. Surely that is in fact a very objectionable premise.

The hon. member asked for a commission of inquiry to be appointed. I trust that we will be able to produce a Bill next year and that we will then be able to look into this matter further. In my opinion a commission of inquiry is not necessary at this juncture. In terms of the Act there is consultation with all the bodies which exist, bodies which the hon. member also knows about.

The hon. member referred to co-ordination between this department and other departments. The Joint Matriculation Board is the body which ensures that co-ordination does take place. In any event, we take good care that there is liaison with other departments, and with the departments in the homelands as well. We maintain good contact, from the subject committees right up to the Examination Board.

The hon. Deputy Minister referred to the progress that had been made at the universities. He referred specifically to Dr. Madiba, the new chancellor of the University of the North, and to Prof. Nkabinde, the new rector of the University of Zululand. I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate these gentlemen. I myself officiated at the inauguration of the former. I also sent a message to Prof. Nkabinde. My colleague, the hon. the Deputy Minister, represented my department there. I trust that these gentlemen will be completely at the service of their people. I myself expect further pleasant co-operation from them because I saw the spirit in which they were prepared to do their work.

I do not want to add very much to what my hon. colleague said in respect of the numbers, the increase in the number of students and the various qualified people who have graduated from those universities over the years. The other important aspect to which he referred was the parity in salaries which can in fact be achieved at Black universities and in regard to which Treasury has given its consent to their being able to retain their own revenue in the form of student class-fees, etc., and to applying it in order to bring about a parity of salaries among the lecturers.

The hon. member for Musgrave also said something for which one must be grateful. We still remember the days when they referred to the Black universities as “bush colleges”, etc. Today he at least said that they “are serving a purpose in our communities”. Therefore we have already made some progress. He also referred to the higher enrolment figure and praised this, but if one had been listening to the hon. member for Pinelands, one would have sworn that it was a fluke if these people did happen to get to the top.

†Then the hon. member for Musgrave also referred to the quality of education. I have already referred to that. When I went to Soweto I investigated Soweto’s schools and also held discussions with principals, inspectors and also with the department’s regional director there. On that occasion I was interviewed by the Press and I again made a declaration of intent referring to all the problems, including the shortage of money, but I said it was the aim of this department to give the best possible education to the Blacks whom we are catering for in our schools.

*As either the hon. the Deputy Minister or the hon. member for Virginia said, these matters are being made to seem as though we are deliberately withholding these people for good education, from better amenities and so on. That is not the case. It is our endeavour to cater for these things, and with the progress we are making we have surely demonstrated our bona fides and that we are well on the way to what we have set ourselves as a target.

The hon. member referred to R117 million for education for Black people. I think it was last year’s figure which he quoted. If we take the homelands into consideration as well, it is not less than R220 million which has been appropriated for the education of Black people. When the hon. member talks about more money which we should find somewhere, the hon. member should spell out a little more clearly where we are supposed to find it. The department has limited funds. There are specific sources from which we have to derive these funds, and the funds we received are being applied for specific purposes.

Therefore the hon. member must spell out clearly what we should now allocate less money to so that we can have more money available for the education of Black people. It is no use holding idealistic conversations about these matters. Each one of us is able to do this, and evoke cheers from our audiences. However, we must be more specific in regard to these matters, because we are dealing with realities.

I just want to refer to something else with regard to which I should like to agree with the hon. member. He referred to the importance of education and upbringing. I came across a splendid passage in Paedonomia, which occupies itself with educational matters. This is the “Journal of the Faculty of Education, University of Zululand”. In it the following was said—

This is true. We could be occupied with many other things, but if we do not teach people, through education and training, to utilize certain amenities to their best advantage, to utilize the things which are available to them to the utmost, it is of no avail trying to improve the standard of peoples’ physical circumstances of life. From the same publication I just want to quote the following passage—

We can go wherever we please, but this will always form the basis. In this respect I agree with the hon. member for Musgrave.

The hon. member for Hercules referred in particular to technical training. He made an appeal to people not to follow the wrong courses because a person could have himself trained, only to find out afterwards that there were no vacancies in that particular field of activity. It could also happen that a person has himself trained in a field which he is not keen on taking up in the end. In that way he ends up saddled with the training which he received. I think the hon. member did a good thing to refer to this. But I think the greatest problem at present is the degree of confusion among Black pupils, as well as among the Black public. This confusion exists in that they confuse trade training, skill in a trade, with what we normally call “technical training”, training in the sense that people equip themselves for the more advanced positions of artisans, and prepare themselves to pursue a technical field of study at a university. I do not think that that distinction is clearly drawn. Consequently I am pleased that the hon. member referred to it.

The hon. member for Randburg referred to the say which Black people do in fact have in the existing system. This is the case. I think that the hon. member thoroughly elucidated all the aspects, that he clearly indicated that Black people have an effective say, that there is consultation as well, and that we hold discussions with the Black people in order to determine their requirements and their needs, and that we establish in this way how we are best able to alleviate their needs.

Last but by no means least, I refer to the hon. member for Berea.

†The hon. member for Berea referred to the shortage of Black doctors. He also made reference to Medunsa, the Medical University of Southern Africa. I think the hon. member has pointed out that Medunsa has at the moment 64 students, the highest enrolment figure for Blacks at any university in a single year. That is true. However, there are also approximately 80 paramedical students studying at Medunsa. The hon. member also wanted to know whether ample provision had been made at Medunsa for the accommodation of more students. At the moment Medunsa can accommodate a total of 200 first-year students annually, bearing in mind that those students will also have to be accommodated in their subsequent study years until they have completed their courses.

*I just want to add that I think that medical students at Medunsa are eventually going to require a little more money. Of course there has already been a reaction on the part of homelands and various major undertakings by awarding bursaries to individual students, or to groups of students. However, I am aware that at the present moment there are students who are not receiving any such assistance, students who, I fear, might have to give up their studies as a result. I hope that this will not be the case. We will have to see in what way we can render assistance.

This is an opportunity for people who are particularly concerned about the number of doctors per component of our Black population. They can make an exceptional contribution by awarding bursaries for medical training at Medunsa. I am pleased that the hon. member referred to this. I also want to make this appeal, and we hope that something will come of it.

I believe that I have replied in some detail to all the matters which have been raised so far, and I look forward to the rest of the discussion which is going to follow.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to say a few words about non-White farm schools and the significance of these schools in our striving after the improvement of race relations. In the report of the Department of Education and Training we see that there are 4 397 farm schools, with a total enrolment of 404 811 pupils. It is clear from this that the farm schools play no mean role in the education and upbringing of Black pupils. I am particularly pleased about the extent of those schools, and the opportunity they offer to pupils. A healthy rural spirit is still breathed in those schools. Those schools are playing the same role in the lives of the Black people as the farm schools played in the lives of the Whites, particularly the Afrikaners, in the past. It is in these schools where education takes place that is close to the spirit and soul and tradition of the ethnic group that is being educated there. As a result of the tremendous numbers of the Black people on the farms, we pay great tribute to the owners of the farms and the farmers who make these facilities available to the department and for the convenience of the Black man, so that he may be educated in this way. We must place it on record that the farmers who make ground and buildings available to the department, receive no remuneration for it. They do it out of love for the cause, out of interest and in the interests of uplifting the children of the Black people with whom they co-exist on a daily basis. The farm schools are supported by the farmers because it is the farmers who co-exist with the Black man and have done so for generations. Those are the people who understand the soul of the Black man and who can really communicate with him.

If we listen to the hon. members of the Official Opposition, today once again in particular, then I am convinced that they do not understand the soul of the Black man, that they will have to make far greater progress before they will understand it. That is why the hon. members on the opposite side of the House cannot make a contribution to relations, as the farmers can do. The farm schools can also make a very great contribution to sound race relations. Speaking about sound race relations, the issue for me is not so much that we should reciprocate friendship, one towards the other, or a person from one race towards a person from another race. It goes much deeper than this. Nor are sound race relations simply a conglomeration, or simply the removal of diversity, but they are the recognition of one another’s uniqueness and of one another’s dignity. Only then do we come to feeling an affection for one another. If we want to make a success of face relations in the Republic, it is necessary for each one to begin with himself. It is first of all necessary for us to know ourselves before we can try to know someone else. That is the basis for sound relations. For the individual, “know thyself” is of tremendous importance within a larger network of race and ethnic relations. By knowing and accepting oneself, one’s group and one’s ethnic context, a feeling of being provided for, of peace, security and safety is created If one knows who one is and what one’s purpose, place and relationship with the other group is, it explains the meaning and purpose of one’s own existence, and when one has determined this, it immediately promotes the balanced development of one’s own personality.

It means one is “open”. It means one can talk to other people and communicate with anybody because one knows who and what one is. It also means that one will have appreciation and respect for the other person and his people, no matter who his people may be. This is the point of departure, because after all one lives in a social context. One lives amongst other people and not isolated on an island like Robinson Crusoe.

Prof. Lamberty, in his study on race relations, comes to the following conclusion—

Thus we get separate development. During 1973 a symposium was held at Stanford in California on the desirability of maintaining separate cultural groups in America. Their point of departure was that the American policy for one large melting-pot for all racial groups, from which, after purification, only an American could emerge, had failed. Because that policy had failed, thought had to be given to whether it would not be better for sound race relations to allow every cultural group to maintain its own identity and to recognize a heterogeneous community as Americans rather than one culture, language and nation.

Now I want to turn to our own history. Just think of 100 years ago when Afrikaans was forced to disappear as a kitchen language. Just think of the struggle that followed. There are other examples too. There is the struggle in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics. In England there is the Scots and Welsh secessionist movement. In Canada there is the secessionist movement of the French-speaking people. In Belgium there are the Walloons versus the Flemish. In America there is the yearning of ethnic groups for their countries of origin.

In South Africa at the moment we are involved in a life and death struggle because the world does not want to give any guarantee for the identity of the Whites. Hence the struggle. Our task must therefore be to create structures and bring about spheres of contact by means of which we envisage the following, viz. (a) that a sensible, acceptable association may arise between the existential ties of the various ethnic groups, an association that may be to mutual advantage; (b) that every ethnic group’s identity shall not be threatened and (c) that the safe continued existence and way of life of the ethnic groups or communities may be guaranteed.

How can the school make a contribution to this tremendous task? I should like to summarize this briefly as follows. In the school every child can be taught to know himself, to be proud of what is his own and of his own identity and to have confidence in and an understanding of those of others. The farm schools are pre-eminently suited to this because the farm school is in an environment where there is mutual understanding and knowledge of races. The enemies of South Africa know that if they can succeed in causing the concept of separate development, the maintenance of one’s own identity and the self-determination of peoples to miscarry— and they are actively engaged in doing this— South Africa will fall into the lap of Marxism like a ripe apple. I should like to warn hon. members of the Official Opposition—especially after what they have said today—that they must be careful that their policy does not fit into a jigsaw somewhere. We would do well to be wary of the false concept of the removal of discrimination. There is a great deal we can say about that. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, after I had sat here listening to the speech of the hon. member for Pinelands this morning, I asked for a copy from Hansard and I could hardly believe that what I had heard and what I read on paper, were the same. Sir, allow me the opportunity to make it very clear that, in my humble opinion, the hon. member for Pinelands lit a fire here this morning the end of which we find difficult to predict. If, in the winter that lies ahead, riots should break out anywhere in the country—let me qualify it: anywhere in the large Black cities of the country—this side of the House now knows at whose door the cause of those riots should be laid.

That is an irresponsible thing to say.

The Vote under discussion is that of Education and Training. This morning, however, the hon. member for Pinelands did not speak about education and training—I quickly re-read his speech a moment ago. This morning he presented a blueprint here—I am putting it very bluntly— for chaos and anarchy by means of three aspects that he placed in our midst here and that I can motivate from his speech: Firstly, I point to the disparagement of the authority of the State, the so-called unfairness on the part of the Government to the Blacks in the country; then, his emotional outburst, for instance that three have to sit on one bench, and a little Black boy who cannot enter a class-room because he has to walk past burned-out desks. I want to remind him of the words of the great Otto Bismarck a century or so ago. When he was asked: “Do you have a message for the young people of our time?” he replied: “I can summarize my advice to you in three words, viz. work, work and more work.” If this had been his message to the Black schools of our time, regardless of whether they were the schools in Soweto, Langa, in the rural areas or wherever they may be, we would not have had the type of problems that he was wrangling about in his speech this morning. It is the most provocative speech I have heard this session, inside or outside the House.

It was meant to be.

The hon. member for Pinelands said, inter alia, the following in his speech—

With his permission I just want to substitute the word “I” for “they”—

As I know this jigsaw puzzle, the issue is not only a school system or a political system, but it concerns the overthrow of the entire state structure, because we are dealing with two totally divergent outlooks on life and on the world, i.e. an internationalism on the one hand and nationalism on the other. Furthermore the hon. member said the following with reference to the so-called “haves” and the “have-nots”—

That is right.

It is a lie.

Order!

I withdraw it, Mr. Chairman.

Thirdly, the hon. member made this provocative statement in regard to education—

If these words cannot be considered as anarchistic and provocative, I still have to learn the meaning of these words. [Interjections.] Furthermore his words were extremely well chosen. It will be extremely interesting for us to see what is written between the lines in the psychological sphere, in this message that he wants to convey. Hon. members would do well to look at the newspapers that will appear this weekend. It will not appear in newspapers like Sunday Times, The Star and others that we will have on our table, but in the supplements that will appear in the Black residential areas. [Interjections.] Machiavellian statements will be made from start to finish in those editions, with a streak of Feuerbach, as well as a touch of Nietzsche and Sarte, and last but not least, a mixture of Marx and Marcuse. This is the basis of his speech this morning. A fire has been lit this morning, and we cannot foresee what the end of it will be. [Interjections.] If there should be riots, however, we know at whose door the blame must be laid. I do not know if I should refer to the hon. member for Pinelands as the missionary of Soweto, the preacher of Langa, the crab of Crossroads or the pain of Pinelands in Parliament. However, he may choose for himself. [Interjections.]

Because time is limited, I just want to associate myself briefly with one aspect to which the hon. member for Middelburg referred. He spoke about the farm schools, and in the first place today I want to pay tribute to all the farmers and land-owners throughout the country who have made land and sites available for the erection of farm schools. The tremendous contribution that they made in that respect, without receiving anything in exchange—it is a labour of love and there was no profit motive involved, because they do not receive any remuneration—makes them deserving of the highest tribute of this House. Furthermore the entire teaching corps of the rural farm schools throughout the country deserves the tribute, thanks and appreciation of this House. I know it is said that these teachers are not as well trained as those in the cities, but from the experience that I gained over the past 10 years, with a farm school on my own farm, I am able to testify that hardly a month went by without my, as manager of the school, having to give permission to one of the teachers to attend an in-service training course somewhere in Pretoria or Johannesburg. This department is therefore constantly engaged in in-service training. By the way, the school on my farm has four teachers and just over 100 pupils. If I praise this teaching corps sincerely today, I also want to refer to the various churches that hold services at those schools over weekends in order to see that a spiritual solidarity and community awareness arises in that community. I also want to thank them for what they are doing in this regard.

Today, the farm schools are to the Black child what the Christian National schools were to the Afrikaner at the beginning of this century, with the difference that the poor Afrikaner in the rural areas did not have a State and a Government at the beginning of the century to support and carry it. They experienced opposition, and that is why they had to carry on on their own. Today these Black farm schools have the support of the State and the Government, and they can flourish. All of us have seen the Black children trotting to school along our roads in the morning, or travelling to school on a donkey cart. We do not look down on them disparagingly. The statement I want to make, is that those children are inspired to attend school and to learn so that they can get somewhere in life. We Whites are making it possible for them. The parents of those children also want them to learn. The State does a tremendous amount, and I want to refer to a few figures this afternoon. Are hon. members aware of the fact that there are almost 4 400 farm schools in the Republic? Are hon. members aware of the fact that there are approximately 8 200 teachers, and more than 400 000 children at those schools? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Brits, in his attack on me of a few moments ago, showed himself to be a classical example of someone blaming the fire brigade for the fire. The hon. the Minister, who also questioned the tone of my speech earlier today, could not understand the gist of it either. I want to repeat one line of that speech, because I think it is being totally overlooked. I said earlier, and I say it again without taking a word back, that if it is true that Black education has to bear the brunt of Black opposition to Government policy, it is equally true that Black education holds in its hand one of the crucial keys to the resolution of conflict by peaceful means. No one seems to have heard that at all. I stand by it in the belief that this department needs to be strengthened rather than weakened.

When one talks of a single National Department of Education, a co-ordinating department of education, one must realize that it can actually take shape within the boundaries of Nationalist policy. There is no reason at all why it cannot. Not once in my entire speech did I mention integrated schools, but I shall come back to that issue in a moment. I did not mention integrated schools once. I said that only when the Blacks in this country see education as being on a par with the total educational thrust in this country, will they rediscover or renew their trust in education in South Africa, and that is vital. We have to win back the confidence of the young Black people in this country. That is why I believe that it is very important to find the necessary means, the necessary plans and the necessary funds. That is the point that was overlooked by the hon. the Minister and other NP speakers. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that I regret very much his announcement—I can only interpret it as such—that he was going to restrict young people …

[Inaudible.]

All right then, it was a response, but I assume that, coming from an hon. Minister, it is official that he is going to restrict…

I have said that I am considering it. I am turning it over in my mind; there are many other things, too, that I am turning over in my mind that I should also like to tell the hon. member. [Interjections.]

I am reassured by what the hon. the Minister has just said. If that is what he says he said, I accept it, but I hope very much indeed that the hon. the Minister will approach the issue with a very real sensitivity because he knows, better than I do, that one of the main reasons why there are older young people in Black schools is because many of them actually do spend time dropping out and then coming back again. In the second place the hon. the Minister also knows that I know that the whole economic background of a people must be taken into account as well …

And what about the other facilities that have been provided in the meantime? I have been coupling the two of them, i.e. adult education …

Yes, Oh yes, that I accept entirely. If there can be undiminished opportunities, then I have no quarrel with it.

I linked the two immediately.

Yes, I know, but I want to tell the hon. the Minister that any feelings engendered outside of this House that there is going to be a cutting off of young people who are older but are still in secondary school, for example, will cause untold harm. That is all I want to say in response to that.

The hon. the Minister also referred to the damaged schools and to his visit to the areas concerned. He also said that when he saw some of these schools he immediately decided that they must be restored. That was nearly six months ago …

I said it after my first visit to the schools.

That is right. I know. All I am trying to say is that those classrooms are still unrepaired. I agree with the hon. the Minister that because they are a symbol they must be restored without any further delay, and I am glad that the hon. the Minister sees it in the same way.

Who must pay for it?

I accept the fact that the whole question of finance is a very difficult one. I have already suggested that the present system of financing is, in my judgement, a wrong one. I believe that the educationalists know better than anyone else how many schools are required, what facilities are required and when they are required. They should therefore have power over more money, rather than to have to go about things in this roundabout way. I think it could only help the department to do its job. In so far as the allocation of more money is concerned, I put it to the hon. the Minister earlier on that in my judgment educational bonds in our country would be even more important than defence bonds because we do not only have a threat from outside. We also have a very considerable problem within the borders of our country. That is why I say that if we need the money, let us in heaven’s name find the money and not quarrel and try to score debating points on issues such as who is going to pay for it and where the money is going to come from. If we have the will to do the things that need to be done, we will find the money just as we find it for everything else.

I was asked questions about our own policy regarding schools and who should attend them. Although I see that the hon. member who asked the questions is not here at the moment, I shall nevertheless try to answer them now. Perhaps one of the hon. member’s colleagues will be so kind as to pass the information on to him. We believe that it is necessary to advance the education of every person in South Africa in order to promote the potential of the individual and the wellbeing of society.

We believe it is important to foster good relationships amongst all South Africans by promoting and understanding of, and thus an appreciation for, the diverse cultures—and I ask the hon. the Minister to listen to this— backgrounds, traditions and aspirations of the people of South Africa. Thirdly, we believe in the recognition that in an open society children have the right to attend neighbourhood schools and educational institutions, paid for or subsidized by public funds, irrespective of race or religion.

Is that “bussing”?

“Neighbourhood” schools. Do you not know the meaning of that word?

No. I have said so before and I say it again. Furthermore, we believe in the recognition of the fundamental right of the parents to choose the medium of instruction for their children, and to raise of the prestige, status and economic position of the teaching profession.

In the last minute or two I have available I want to say that in his reply to me, especially his reply to my quotations of the late Dr. Verwoerd, the hon. the Minister should also have addressed his remarks to his own colleague, the hon. the Deputy Minister of Plural Relations and of Education and Training, who also quoted the late Dr. Verwoerd and the late Dr. Malan to justify his present position. We have here a direct conflict between the hon. the Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister. [Interjections.] Having listened to the hon. the Deputy Minister, it is quite clear to me that he still stands in 1953 and that is why I tremble to think of him as Deputy Minister in this vital department. The hon. the Minister makes it quite clear that he has moved, that he recognizes the problems and the needs of 1978, but not that hon. the Deputy Minister, not at all. That is why I say that he is not only a stumbling block in the way of South Africa, but also the stumbling block in the way of his own party. He is an embarrassment to his party. [Interjections.] He stands in the way of advance and then still has the cheek to quote Chief Gatsha Buthelezi, as if he does not accept an open society or university. The hon. the Deputy Minister must not play with words. He knows full well that Chief Buthelezi does accept open universities. The hon. the Deputy Minister has no business to quote, out of context, the words of a distinguished South African who has said again and again that he stands for an open society in South Africa. The hon. the Deputy Minister knows that full well.

And a closed Zulu society?

It is that hon. the Deputy Minister who does not believe in an open society.

Of course it is.

It is the hon. the Deputy Minister who does not believe in it. His remarks about the University of Stellenbosch show it. I believe the hon. the Deputy Minister would prefer not to have a single Black student at the University of Stellenbosch.

Did you read what I said?

Am I right or wrong?

You are wrong. [Interjections.]

I accept the hon. the Deputy Minister’s word, but he could have fooled a lot of people! Lastly, I should like to appeal to the hon. the Minister to consult with the Black people involved before he starts taking action in terms of the new Act. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, while the speech of the hon. member for Pinelands made this morning showed a lack of fairness, the speech he has just made, showed a lack of insight and understanding. I do not think he could follow the hon. the Deputy Minister’s speech. I shall refer to his speech later on. First of all I want to quote the words of an hon. member who, until now, has said nothing in this debate, i.e. the hon. member for Johannesburg North. In fact, I was a little surprised today that the hon. member for Pinelands acted here as the main speaker and authority in this sphere, because in an article in the periodical Drum earlier this year reference was made to the hon. member for Johannesburg North as an authority in this sphere. The hon. member for Johannesburg North made certain statements in that connection. I quote from the article written by the journalist, Stan Motjuwadi—

He is an authority and therefore has the right to do that. According to the writer, the hon. member was of the opinion that—

Today we have heard this over and over again during this debate. The hon. member who has just resumed his seat, however, is moth-eaten. I want to turn to this authority. Because this authority is a man who takes his time with his decisions, I want to ask him to take his time reading a book. The book is entitled Trends and Challenges in the Education of the South African Bantu. The book is a compilation of a series of papers edited by Prof. Duminy. In that book reference is made, inter alia, to a paper read by Prof. Ross, who was the then rector of the College of Fort Hare. I quote—

Prof. Ross also referred to an educationist, a certain Mr. Ikejiani, of Nigeria. He said the following—

He went on to say—

With great appreciation and respect I want to refer that authority to these judgments. This brings us to the basic elementary concept that education, the training and development of the human being rests on an educational basis, and that structure is rooted in the culture and the history of the population concerned.

The hon. member for Pinelands made a plea for compulsory education in his earlier speech. Compulsory education puts a responsibility, puts a contract in the hand of the parent whose child receives compulsory education. If that child is absent from school illegally, the parent will be prosecuted. What then of the hon. member for Houghton, who is sitting there now? If those people are prosecuted, she will have something to say about the police. [Interjections.] We shall then see how she rebels. Those people will be prosecuted. A certain educational concept has to be brought home to them that that contract does exist.

The department is investigating the situation all the time.

Therefore we have to ask that hon. member now to keep quiet when we take action in that regard.

Just get on with the job. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Pinelands said earlier on in his speech that the whole fundamental structure of the department does not rest on the basis of education principles.

Right!

Is the hon. member speaking about educational principles or pedagogical principles?

Educational principles.

That hon. member has no idea of what educational principles or pedagogical principles are. [Interjections.] He has not made a study of them. He only considered the task and the functions of the department superficially. I shall prove it now. To prove this, I want to substantiate it by referring to a single aspect of this department, i.e. the department’s psychological services division. However, I do not want to dwell on the concept of psychology, for then we shall have to argue for hours with the members of the Official Opposition. What is the purpose of that division of the department? Their purpose is basically to identify those people in the schools who have the ability to develop, to become leaders of their nation, and to single them out to enable them to take the leadership in those positions. It is, however, an enormous task. I am only referring shortly to the definition of the object of that department. The identification of the potential and the aptitude in the various critical levels of the education structure, the evaluation of that standard, guidance with regard to choice of subjects, selection and correct location with regard to certain courses, research on the above aspects with a view to planning, is the definition of object of the department. To carry out the functions flowing from this and apply them to that education structure; to bring them to the schools and to make it implementable in practice, requires the drawing up of standardized psychological tests. To take those tests and to apply the results of the tests further with regard to the teaching staff, as well as the training of teachers to enable them to do this and to apply the results eventually, is something into which an in-depth inquiry should be made.

Then we also have to congratulate the department’s staff with what they have already reached in this sphere. In 1975 a total of 718 schools with 84 000 pupils were involved in this matter. In 1977 2 400 schools with 220 000 pupils were involved. I think this is an achievement which denotes outstanding service. To be able to identify this child, to be able to reach him and to apply the test, is not an easy task. To be able to create a standard test is a very difficult and complicated task. The hon. the Minister referred to this. The Black child lives in an experiential world of his own within Western circumstances which are sometimes difficult to enter into, and sometimes also difficult to fathom. He lives in another sphere. It is necessary for us to do something for the Black pupil who is projected in his milieu against the Western norms of existence, the Western economy and Western requirements. From within this milieu and this sphere with regard to the Western development he has, in fact, to be able to find his existence. The language and the idiom of this Black pupil is also different. There is also a difference between the Black pupil from the rural area and the Black pupil growing up in the urban areas. There are other levels of contact for them. These impressions we feed through to him, he has to interpret first and then learn to assimilate them. There is also a difference in the living conditions of children in different areas. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to assure the hon. the Minister that we who know him, we on this side of the House, know that now, as in the past, progress in this department will take rapid strides in the interests of the Blacks and in the interests of education. We have full confidence in the hon. the Minister. We know that he is a man who takes this matter seriously. Therefore I am especially pleased that the hon. the Minister thinks that there should, in fact, be an age limit on pupils who attend secondary schools. This is something I should like to speak about.

I do feel that a person of 22 to 25 years of age is no longer a pupil, a child of school-going age. Many of those Blacks who are attending secondary schools today, are professional schoolgoers people who, from a pedagogic point of view, do not really belong at school. I have something to say about that; I want to exchange some ideas on the subject. When I express some ideas in this regard, I actually want to refer to Soweto. Soweto can serve as a good example of what happens in reality.

There are almost 300 schools in Soweto. There are almost 170 000 pupils in Soweto. Therefore, when one looks at the annual report of this department—by the way, it is a beautiful report—one notes that in the 18-year age group there are almost 6 000 pupils in Soweto, while in the age group above 18 years, there are almost 12 000 pupils in Soweto. This is a very large number, a very large number of people older than 18 years who are still attending school. We also have to keep in mind that they are taking up the place which should actually be available to younger people, younger people who are eager to study, and who have shown that they want to study.

I want to mention a few facts with regard to Soweto. In the first place it is a fact that the teachers, the pupils and the school buildings—apart from those that were burnt down—are there. Now, however, we find that intimidation has, in fact, taken place. Pupils, youths under 18 years old, are intimidated and some of them now boycott the schools. Therefore they do not attend school any more. In my opinion it is pedagogically unsound for children of 10 or 15 years to attend the same schools as young men of between 20 and 25 years. On this basis I merely want to refer in passing to three aspects.

The first aspect is that enormous pressures were exerted in Soweto last year, apparently under the pretext that Bantu Education is inferior vis-à-vis White education. As a result, primary school children—primary school children who were dissatisfied with the inferiority of their education—decided to boycott the schools. Now I ask whether a child of 15 years, a child in Std. III, can decide that one system is inferior compared to another. Merely stating this proves that it is rubbish. In the second place, I ask whether we can believe that due to these considerations, young people would set fire to their schools. Can one believe this? Is it in the nature of young people to do something like this? I do not believe that this is in the nature of young people. What is true, in fact, is that there are agents in those schools, agents, who are old enough and physically strong enough to intimidate especially the young pupils. There are agents who are being used to intimidate the pupils.

I now want to refer to some of those so-called professional pupils, people who are dangerous to the teachers and the pupils. The hon. member for Pinelands said so himself. He said: “I refer to the fact that youngsters …”—and I do not agree with him that they are “youngsters”—… of 17, 18, 19 and 20 are in those classes and they have very little respect for the teachers.” That is the problem. That is why discipline cannot be maintained. The hon. member for Pinelands has to admit this.

The second aspect to which I want to refer, is the following: That one Dr. Motlana made certain statements the other day, almost a year after the problems in Soweto, at a meeting of the PFP. He said that there will be no change in South Africa without pressure, and that the change will only occur when the country is politically unstable. He also said that amongst the Black youth, however, the goodwill is exhausted, that it simply no longer exists. Now I want to say that what he said is not the case among the young pupils. It might be the case with the professional pupil, who is in fact an agent. I regard the words of Dr. Motlana as something which he would like to see, but which is not really the position. Now there is something strange about this matter. It is that almost a year after the events in Soweto took place, he is allowed to say this at a meeting of the PFP. [Interjections.]

Now I want to mention the third aspect. I now want to quote the words of the hon. member for Pinelands; we might as well compare them with the words of Dr. Motlana. He said: “If the Government does not act urgently, decisively, dramatically, it could bring nearer the possibility of a civil war in this land.” This, in other words, is a reference to a political instability; exactly what Dr. Motlana said. This is a tremendous coincidence, I want to tell the hon. member for Pinelands that he is moving in circles “where one can expect to find these remarks”. He should associate with people in different circles and he might find different remarks. The circles in which I move, do not carry this prophecy of doom which the hon. member for Pinelands or Dr. Motlana project.

What must we do about this now? I want to request the hon. the Minister to consider the following very seriously and without delay, in the interest of the Black child who wants to study, but whose place is being filled by the professional schoolgoer who does not want to study. When a man or a child has reached the age of 16 years, he should no longer be allowed automatically in the school. Pedagogically that is not right. Then I want to go further and say that if someone has reached the age of 18 years and fails a year, he should no longer be allowed in that school. Now I know what the PFP is going to say. They are going to say that we are denying people the opportunity of education. That is not the case. If we were only to use the White system, the system which the so-called professional pupils really want. The professional school-goer is someone between 18 and 24 years and who sits there, not with the aim of passing, but in order to agitate. If you want the definition; that is it. Of course we do not want to discourage anyone, but we also have to protect the interests of those young children who are being intimidated. That is the position. They are being intimidated by older people. The teachers, too, are being intimidated and we have to protect them as well. We also have to afford those who are older than 16 and 18 years, the opportunity to study extra-murally, because that is exactly what happens to Whites. There are very few White pupils at school in matric who are older than 18 years. If they want Black education to be equal to White education in all respects, we can start here. We can start at this point and put the matter right pedagogically to give the young man, who wants to study without intimidation, the opportunity to do so. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, on a previous occasion in this hon. House, when I referred to the involvement of parents, I said that there are three inseparable partners or pillars in the educational set-up. I suggested that the one cannot exist without the other. Should one of these partners function negatively or passively, the vulnerable element in this partnership, i.e. the child, is hurt. These three cornerstones or partners are the school—the teacher—the parent and the child. Much has already been said about the involvement and the contribution by the teacher and it is surely a foregone conclusion that the whole teaching set-up will collapse if the teacher does not remain a firm pillar in the educational set-up. Surely it is also true that it is the teacher—and in this case particularly the Black teacher—who will have to give strong and positive guidance to the children of his own people.

However, I should like to confine myself to the involvement and the responsibility of the Black parent in the education of his child. I wish to put it plainly that the time is past when the parent could stand aside, passively and negatively, as far as the education of his child was concerned. The elementary inculcation of obedience, order and discipline depends on the way in which the parent can handle his child. Passive acquiescence or negative awareness of fear must initiate a pitiless, consuming process of deterioration in the child. The child’s first and important hold on the road to adulthood in an ordered society is, to my mind, to be found in the positive guidance and disciplined authority of the parent. Therefore negativism on the part of the parent will, of necessity, lead to a passive aggression and increasing resistance on the part of the child. Therefore like the responsible Black parents, we are concerned about the alarming number of uninterested and even frightened parents when it comes to matters affecting education.

There is concern about the lack of interest on the part of parents in regard to, for instance, the election of members of school committees. It is estimated that only 5% to 7% of parents are really involved in these elections. At the moment there are 1 448 school committees, and it is necessary that the right, interested parents should be elected to these committees. Lack of participation in elections could lead to the wrong persons with other, wrong motives controlling education matters.

However, what is even more important, is the role which these elected parents play in the composition of school boards. School boards consist of parent members from the school committees of the school board area concerned, who are elected by such members of school committees. Then there are also three nominated members. The important role played by school committee representation in school boards, is reflected in the number of elected members as follows: 1 to 5 schools, 6 elected members; 6 to 10 schools, 8 elected members; 11 to 15 schools, 10 elected members and 16 and more schools, 12 elected members. In each case the parent community therefore retains the majority in school boards. One sees this when one takes the three nominated members into account. Therefore the parent has to see to it that he is not represented by activists and agitators as a result of his lack of participation. The parent community has the power to see to it that the school committees and therefore also the school boards come into sound hands and remain in sound hands. It is their task, their responsibility and their duty. I want to appeal to them not to shy away from this responsibility, for much is at stake. The most important aspect is surely the appointment and the dismissal of teachers by the school boards. The instruments have been created whereby the parent community can see to it that the teachers corps is sound, inspired and has only one purpose, i.e. to educate and train the children entrusted to it, and not to influence them negatively and to indoctrinate them.

Then there is no need for statements from people such as Dr. Motlana, chairman of the Committee of Ten—there has been more than one reference to this in the course of this discussion—who wrote the Black youth off unconditionally. He has condemned them irrevocably. On Republic Day he held a conference with the Progs and, as was reported in Die Burger, he said, in the first place, that the Government must be compelled to negotiate for a new constitution. We want to know from the hon. member for Pinelands—we believe he was present—how he interprets this statement by Dr. Motlana.

I was not there.

What force will be exercised, and will he and his party help to exert pressure on South Africa and the Government? South Africa and this Government will not allow themselves to be pressurized, not by Dr. Motlana, and still less by the Progs and their supporters. What else did he say about the Black youth? As I have said, he wrote them off and condemned them unconditionally. Dr. Motlana went on to say—

We want to know whether the Progressive Party, that sat with Dr. Motlana around the conference table, agree with this statement. I want to ask him: Where did his own sons go to school? I want to tell you that they did not go to school in South Africa. South Africa’s Black schools were not good enough, for a spirit of aggression and revolt must be created. His sons could not and were not allowed to be involved.

The Government wishes to work towards the introduction of compulsory education for Black children. The principle has been accepted. It is undoubtedly necessary, indeed vital, that before such a step is taken, there be widespread evidence that there will be positive and purposeful co-operation on the part of the parent community.

Mr. Chairman, I have been in the Opposition for a long time and I do not easily become despondent. However, if I listen to some of the speeches of the hon. members on the opposite side, I really start being despondent. I requested hon. members earlier to be careful with the type of argument they use to justify their policy. Nevertheless we had things again which, I believe, will actually be grist to the mill of other people. The hon. the Deputy Minister made his speech immediately after my first turn to speak, and once again it was clear to me—I say it with all respect towards him—that he is satisfied if he can prove that his present point of view is exactly that of a predecessor of about a quarter of a century ago.

That is not the point, because we have already reached a new stage. The point is how the Blacks themselves regard their education. I repeat: The logical consequence of the Government’s policy will be that they will become citizens of another country. However, we shall still have millions of Blacks in White South Africa. Their education will fall under the Department of Education and Training, in which they have no direct say.

How can you say that? Do you know how many say they have? You are a stranger in Jerusalem.

That is the problem. I feel that we will have to carry out an in-depth investigation before that legislation is introduced.

Yes.

Sometimes I can reach the wavelength of the hon. the Minister to a certain degree, but then sometimes he is so isolated.

During my previous turn to speak I drew statistical comparisons. Last year I did not even try to draw comparisons, because I thought that comparisons would not have been fair as a result of the boycotts which were taking place and the fact that some pupils have not written examinations. This could have led to a position where it was impossible to obtain a true picture. This year, however, I started looking at that again. The first thing I noticed was that in spite of all the problems progress was in fact made. There is progress with regard to the first four years at school, especially with regard to the so-called drop-out rate. Furthermore, there is progress with regard to the number of pupils in high school, although the progress is somewhat artificial because of the abolition of Std. VI after 1975. This led to a double intake. However, what I want to say—and I believe that this is what we are responsible people should consider—is that we should realize that the road ahead is still a very long one. In this regard I want to make certain comparisons with White education in order to enable us to realize how long the road ahead still is. 27,3% of White pupils at school are in their first four years. The figure among the Blacks is 61,6%. It is therefore clear that there is an enormous difference. But I make haste to say that the figure among the Blacks was 66% five or six years ago. Therefore there has indeed been an improvement. As far as the last five years at school are concerned, 36,5% of the White pupils are attending the last five years of the high school period. The Blacks have made such progress that in their case the figure in 1977 was 13,3%. This information is based on replies we received earlier this year to questions in this House.

†I now want to make another comparison, and this comparison, I believe, does South Africa no good at all. When one compares the ratio of expenditure, one finds that the expenditure for Whites amounts to 67% of the total expenditure on education as opposed to 16% for Blacks. The rest was, of course, expended on education for Coloureds and Indians. If one compares this with the population as a whole, one finds that the reverse virtually applies. The Blacks constitute 65,7% of the population and the Whites 17,7%. This is a disparity which can no longer be allowed to remain as such. I know we are spending more on Black education than before. I also know that the situation has improved as a result of the abolition of the Bantu Education Account in 1973. However, there is still something drastically and fundamentally wrong, and I am not surprised, because when one finds that a country like South Africa spends only 4,33% of its GNP on education and, furthermore, allows an unequal distribution of this expenditure, one can expect this sort of thing. All in all, this is an inadequate situation, and in a way, one courts disaster by allowing it to continue.

*I now want to refer briefly to certain bottlenecks in this regard. Certain other hon. members also referred to this in their speeches. One of the greatest bottlenecks, which cropped up this year in particular, is the lack of accommodation in the urban areas. This applies not only to the White urban areas, but also to the Black urban areas which form part of the homelands. In this regard I have in mind in particular the problems in places like KwaMashu and Umlazi. There have been statements in the Press by inspectors who claim that they have 7 000 high school pupils in their sections, but that accommodation was only available for 3 000. If one has reached that situation, one has to admit that one is dealing with a bottleneck which has reached critical proportions. One of the greatest problems is that in the urban areas a purposeful effort is still being made to prevent the establishment of secondary schools in the White areas and that a quota system has been implemented with regard to the establishment of junior secondary schools. It is laid down in accordance with that system how many classrooms a school can have and also how many families should be living in an area before a junior secondary school can be established. My question to the hon. the Minister today is: What happened to the quota system? Has the quota system been expanded? Is the basis of the system still the same as in 1972-’73? What is the policy with regard to the provision of teachers’ training colleges for training for junior secondary education? In the Bantu education journal one finds that up to 1976 there was no training college offering this as a course in the White areas. Is the position still the same, or is anything further being planned in this regard? In spite of all the artificial efforts made in the past, we do still find that more than 40% of all Black pupils are in White areas. Sometimes they are in conditions which leave much to be desired. In this regard I want to ask the hon. the Minister: What progress is being made with regard to accommodation in the Zweletemba area near Worcester? I put these questions to the hon. the Minister earlier this year as well. At that time he said that the problem was that the administration board was waiting for a loan. The hon. the Minister is aware of the situation there and I know that certain other people have also contacted him about this. However, I do not want to dwell on that now, but I do want to say that sometimes it is very difficult to explain to people—especially if a situation is created where other projects are given higher priority than the building of a school—what the circumstances are. In this particular case the administration board has already built beer halls, etc., in the meantime.

†The final plea I want to make to the hon. the Minister is that he should use his influence to see that active politicians should not be appointed to the councils of the various Black universities. I am raising this issue not because I want to attack any particular hon. member. I am raising it purely as a matter of principle and I am not even going to mention the name of any hon. member as such. I merely wish to state that this is a wrong principle and should be abolished. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to make a few remarks with reference to the speech made by the hon. member for Durban Central. In the first instance, the hon. member tried to draw quite a few comparisons between the education of White children in South Africa and that of Black children. I want to tell the hon. member that comparisons of that nature are fine, and probably have to be drawn on occasion, but one has to be very careful to view comparisons of this nature in the proper context, and against the particular historical background of a particular geographical area. Perhaps one should take a more careful look next year at the comparisons drawn by the hon. member. In the second place, the hon. member held it against the hon. the Deputy Minister for his having referred back to certain basic principles, principles which we in the NP can always broach again.

I want to tell the hon. member that after a party has been governing for 30 years, an Opposition at times has the inclination to want to break such a party on the basis of its history and to want to disparage it on the basis of its past, in order to place a new generation of people on a wrong course. We in the NP, however, are dealing with special basic principles laid down a long time ago, and our projections based on those principles, are projections which remain valid. Therefore, although one finds a measure of flexibility in the policy of the NP, one is able to trace this back to the foundations which were laid down.

By tampering with the pronouncements of the late Dr. Verwoerd, one is making a very bad blunder. The blunder our opponents are making, is to overlook the fact that a younger generation will go back to read what the late Dr. Verwoerd had said, and will come to realize anew that at the time, with the insight and the wisdom he had, he did the right thing. One should also be careful not to condemn a person who spoke 25 years ago in a different milieu. In this way one proves one’s own lack of a scientific approach.

In the third place the hon. member for Durban Central referred to certain of my hon. colleagues who had spoken, and said that he did not really profit by their speeches. I have been listening to the debates on Bantu Education—now Education and Training— for a long time, and I want to point out that my colleagues who participated in this debate are mostly people who have a thorough grounding in education. They are men who, like the hon. member, were very good teachers. Therefore I think their contributions were good.

Mr. Chairman, you will allow me to say a few words about the hon. the Minister. The hon. the Minister and I have been together in this House for more than a decade. I think the Black people in South Africa may be very grateful to have a man of the quality and calibre of the hon. the Minister to deal with the affairs pertaining to their education. I know the hon. the Minister not only as an educationalist, not only as an authority on history, but also as a person of culture, as a person with his feet firmly on the ground, a person who can take a practical and sober view of things. The biggest compliment I can pay the hon. the Minister, is to say that I should not have minded to have had him as the teacher of my own children.

The education for Blacks, particularly in terms of the policy of the National Party, has been made very contentious, sensitive and in many respects explosive by the actions and speeches of people like the hon. member for Pinelands. I want to associate myself with the words of the hon. member for Brits. He made a very sensible speech today, and I think the hon. member for Pinelands will want to run away from what the hon. member said. At times I do not know whether the hon. member for Pinelands says these things because he is knowledgeable or because he is ignorant. I want to tell him, however, that one cannot sow dragons’ teeth in South Africa and think that manna will fall from heaven. Winter comes again, and we have the experience of what can happen in schools. I do not want to point a finger at the hon. member for Pinelands—as a matter of fact, I think we can, in the ecumenical context, meet one another—but I want to tell him that if problems were to arise in South Africa again in future, not only responsible Whites, but also responsible Blacks will start asking: Who are the white spectres wandering about in Bantu education?

It has been said time and again in this debate that there are a few basic premises in the National Party’s education policy for Blacks, because we broke new ground when a start was made with education for Blacks. Therefore there were a few basic things which we felt intuitively. One of these was that in making a start with education, such education had to be within an ethnic context. When the normal ethnic context is present in education, the cultural identity of the people concerned also comes into play. We have done this in respect of Black education over the decades. I want to tell the hon. member that he does not have to listen to what the National Party says about Black education. The PFP, the far leftists as far as White politics in South Africa is concerned, do not agree with the standpoint adopted by the National Party with regard to Black education.

But what are the Black people in Africa saying about education for their own people? Right from the outsets the National Party adopted the attitude that we should not destroy national identities in Southern Africa. In the first place one should not belittle the language of the people. In our education policy we maintained not only the language of those people, but also their identity milieu.

Now I want to make a few quotations. In the first place I want to quote from an article with the heading “Siswati as a medium of instruction”—written by one Mr. V. Simelane. I quote—

I also want to quote from a publication entitled “Education in Africa”—

I also want to quote from a publication “Prospects Quarterly Review of Education” in which an article appeared under the heading “Education and culture in Africa”—

I quote these passages so that the spokesmen of the PFP may at least have a scientific basis next year for their arguments. Next I quote from the magazine West African Journal of Education, in which an article appears under the heading: “Education in the Mother Tongue: A Nigerian experiment—the six-year (Yoruba medium) primary education project at the University of Ife, Nigeria.” The author refers to a number of pupils educated in certain languages. I quote—

I want to read out a further quotation. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to refer to the remark made by the hon. member for Durban Central that he objected to the nomination of politicians to university councils. He has apparently forgotten what the hon. the Minister replied to a written question by the hon. member on 21 April 1978. The hon. member asked (Hansard, 21 April 1978, col. 681)—

1. (1) (a) How many persons have been appointed to the present Council of the University of Zululand in terms of section 8(1 )(b) of Act 43 of 1969; and
2. (b) What are (i) their names and (ii) their educational qualifications;

I take it that the hon. member has a grievance about the fact that the hon. members for Cradock and Eshowe serve on the councils of the Universities of Zululand and Fort Hare, respectively. If White politicians can serve on White university councils, what is wrong with Whites serving on Black university councils? The hon. the Minister also furnished the reasons for their nomination. These are the positions they occupy in public life, the leading role which they play in their communities, their knowledge and experience of universities and their experience in the field of education. The present two members are both university graduates and for that reason both of them qualify.

I also want to ask the hon. member this: Since when does the election of an M.P. make him contaminated, thereby rendering him unsuitable to serve anywhere else? I want to leave the hon. member at that.

In contrast to the negative attitude adopted by all the Opposition speakers today, I want to say something positive about the Department of Education and Training, i.e. something about our universities and tertiary education. One of the greatest assets of any country is its potential of trained and highly skilled manpower. It is essential for every developing country to have properly trained and efficient men who will serve their country with dedication and competence in all walks of life and who will develop the country to the benefit of all. To this end it has become essential in the modern world for the best students to receive university training so as to enable them to qualify themselves best for positions of leadership and responsibility with a view to promoting the industrial development of the country. Furthermore, it is true that the necessary facilities are being made available and that the Government has realized these problems, and that the best universities, as well as the best colleges for advanced technical training, are being established for the training of Black students. This is the reason for the attitude adopted by the leaders of Black States, they realize that education, and especially university training, ought to enjoy the highest priority. In this endeavour the Government wants to assist the Black States and their leaders. As far as university training is concerned, we already have four universities. I want to refer to the University of Fort Hare, which caters chiefly for Xhosa-speaking students. In the second place, there is the University of Zululand, which caters for Zulu-speaking students, as well as for the Swazis. In the third place, there is the University of the North, which caters chiefly for Northern Sotho, Southern Sotho, Tswana, Venda and Tsonga-speaking students. In the fourth place there is the Medical University of Southern Africa, situated near Pretoria, which caters chiefly for students from all the Black population groups studying medicine, dentistry and veterinary science.

In addition a large number of Black students are receiving training from the University of South Africa by means of correspondence courses. The University of Natal is still offering training on a limited basis to medical students who will eventually, once Medunsa has been completed, disappear of course. In addition a great deal of progress has been made with the establishment of a branch of the University of Zululand near Durban, i.e. at Umlazi.

The fact that the Government has been paying particular attention to university training in recent years, is reflected by the legislation passed here in recent years, and by the increasing amounts voted annually for Black universities. If we base our calculations on the amount of only R640 000 voted in 1960 and on the amount voted 17 years later in the budget for 1978-’79, i.e. R17,7 million, we find a 25-fold increase in these amounts.

When we look at the capital expenditure of the universities, we see that this has shown an equally remarkable increase. The budget for 1978-’79 votes an amount of R12 million for capital works at universities, as well as an amount of R2 million for the Medical University of Southern Africa.

A visit to each of the four Black universities can leave no doubt in the mind of anyone that the buildings and facilities are not only functional educationally, but also modern, beautiful and impressive architecturally. It may also be mentioned that a five-year plan concerning extensions has been drawn up for each of the four universities. Whereas student accommodation and academic accommodation used to be the main items of concern, a great deal of attention will be given to sports and recreation facilities in future. In this regard I may just mention that the University of the North already has seven women’s residences and 20 men’s residences which can offer accommodation to approximately 2 000 students.

As against what is being done with regard to building development, there has also been progress in the academic field. I think the hon. the Deputy Minister indicated this very clearly to us this afternoon when he mentioned the figures here. In 1960 only 52 degrees were conferred by the University of Fort Hare. In 1975 as many as 500 degrees and 285 diplomas were conferred by all three universities. In 1976 a total of 575 degrees were conferred. The full spectrum of branches of study is covered by the courses offered. Earlier on the hon. member for Berea referred to the shortage of medical doctors.

This year, for the first time, 64 students were admitted to the second year at the Medical University of Southern Africa. This is the largest number of Black medical students admitted to the second year at any time in the history of South Africa. When this medical university is ready, it will afford study opportunities to 200 medical students, 50 students in dentistry and 50 students in veterinary science each year.

As far as bursaries and loans are concerned, the necessary is being done to offer students the necessary stimulation and opportunities; not only to the medical students, but also to the educationalists. In addition the Treasury is also making an important concession this year, and that is that as from 1 April this year the universities may retain their own revenue collected by them.

It is the policy of the Government to entrust a larger share in the control of the Black universities to the Black man, as he becomes ready to accept such responsibility. Eight Black councillors are serving on the Council of the University of the North. The University of Fort Hare has seven Black members serving on its council, and eight Black members also serve on the council of the Medical University of Southern Africa.

It is also the policy of the Government and of the University authorities to appoint Blacks to any vacancies which may occur provided they have the necessary qualifications. The university authorities, as well as the Government, is not prepared, however, to accept a lowering of standards. It is trusted that the facilities provided by the Government to qualify the Black peoples academically and professionally, will lead to their being self-sufficient in every respect, as well as being equipped to uplift their own communities to economic and constitutional independence. The Government is also prepared to assist the Black man in his endeavours to make progress. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I shall try to deal with matters in the order in which hon. members raised them. After that, there will perhaps be a few matters of general interest which I shall discuss at the end of my speech.

The hon. member for Middelburg referred to the important role which farm schools play, and to what the farming community is doing in this connection. I am grateful to him for having referred to that, because that community not only provides the physical amenities which are at the disposal of farm workers, but—and the hon. member mentioned that too—also creates good mutual relations.

The people know one another and they co-operate, and that augurs well for the future. I thank him for having referred to that, because our farming community deserves the thanks of this House as well for the work they are doing in that connection, and we as a department also try to make things easy for them. When we receive applications for registration from schools and we can help in any way, we are only too eager to do so.

The hon. member for Brits had a bone to pick with the hon. member for Pinelands in particular, and I think he did so very well. The hon. member for Pinelands might not be doing so deliberately, but with his speeches he creates a mood, a climate, which does not remain here but is carried further, a mood which other people carry with them and which even incites other people to action. These are facts. Arising out of what the hon. member has said, I have already said that it may be pure coincidence that things may happen again in the near future.

That is what I am warning against!

The difference between the manner in which we say and do a thing and the manner in which the hon. members of the Official Opposition say and do things, is that I shall argue for example, that I want to make a suggestion, or that I want to criticize something. The hon. member for Pinelands, on the other hand, always acts with the utmost confidence as the champion for a group of people of whom only a small portion is identifiable. In reality, the hon. member for Pinelands is not the great “champion” of all those people. Of course he makes himself believe that, and he likes to believe that. But by what he is doing, he is conveying ideas to people who would have acted quite differently if the hon. member had stated matters in general and in a calmer manner here.

The hon. member also argues among other things that we should employ something similar to defence bonds—that is his suggestion—in order to raise money for education. I can assure the hon. member that if he were to try and sell such bonds, he would not get a single one sold. I am saying this particularly in view of the attitude which the hon. member displayed here.

Take it seriously!

I shall take it seriously. After all, I told the hon. member what I was engaged in doing in order to try and change the entire financial dispensation of the department. But I do not know whether that is the only way. However, I do think the hon. member may as well forget about his proposal. It is simply not possible for us to institute yet another system of bonds to serve this purpose.

The hon. member for Pinelands also tried to imply that this department was the forgotten orphan of the Government.

No, not at all.

That, at least, was the impression the hon. member wanted to create. When he refers to a positive aspect of the department, he does it in barely two sentences. After that, he becomes destructive all the way. Then he warns: “Beware! I am telling you now that something is still going to explode here!”

Do you have enough money?

I said right at the outset that we did not have enough money.

That is exactly all I said.

But no one has ever argued about that. I also said that while I was dealing with a certain piece of legislation here.

At least, we agree on one point.

I reiterate that the hon. member for Pinelands, when he presents things here, does so in such a way that he creates exceptional expectations. When, ultimately, those expectations cannot be satisfied and unrest even develops, it is imputed to the Government, and the Government has to bear the blame for it. That is what I have against the hon. member. I am convinced that the hon. member does not even appreciate the fact that in this budget there is an increase of 30% over that of last year in the amount set aside for Bantu education. That is simply not noticed. If it is indeed noticed, it is with a squinting eye.

Then the hon. member also referred to confidence in the department having been shaken. Who has shaken the confidence in this department now? Someone has had a hand in it and that someone is the hon. member for Pinelands, who has helped to shake the confidence in this department. He is still advocating the dismantling of this department.

All education must come together under one department!

No matter what is being done by the department as it stands now, it means nothing whatsoever to the hon. member for Pinelands. This department must be done away with. Something else must be put in its place. The department must be remodelled, or whatever the case might be. When one talks in that way, it is inevitable that ill-feeling will build up against the department. The hon. member for Pinelands enjoys very good support, also the support of his newspapers. This issue gets publicity throughout the country. Expectations are created, and if nothing comes of them, and the Government does not move fast enough, it is the Government which is dragging its feet and doing nothing.

I now want to refer to the suggestion that certain limits should be set to the admission of pupils; in other words, the idea of an age limit above which pupils must be compelled to leave school. When I referred to that earlier, I very clearly linked the matter to the existing centres for adult education. I said that if we had to bring about relatively normal educational and school conditions in our schools, this was a matter that we ought to look into. If, therefore, I eventually tell a scholar—whether he be 21 or 24 years old; it does not matter how old he is—that he no longer fits into a normal school, but that other provision will be made for him, provision which still includes free education, then I want to know in what respect I am depriving that scholar of education. As far as I am concerned, I am helping other people by removing him.

I therefore agree to a great extent with the hon. member for Pretoria West. We ought to look into this matter. I am making it quite clear that if it comes to my notice that some of those scholars who are much older than the normal pupils in their classes, are among the trouble-makers, I shall feel compelled to work out a system according to which we will be able to take action against those people. If we cannot remove such people from the schools, the time has perhaps arrived for those people to pay in full for their school instruction. I have the greatest sympathy for those pupils who, owing to economic circumstances, have to care for little ones at home, or whatever the case may be. But there are many Black scholars—and the hon. member for Pinelands cannot argue this away—whose circumstances are quite different. I know of certain of them who are already married, and who are brought to school in father’s car. That is something which cannot continue any longer. We have to talk about these things, because they create a problem in education. That is something which is not normal in ordinary education.

I think that I have now replied more or less fully to the matters raised by the hon. member for Pinelands.

Mr. Chairman, could I ask the hon. the Minister, in connection with the report concerning the investigation surrounding the introduction of compulsory education, how far they have gone, what the developments have been and what the resolutions might be?

We are still making progress. From the very beginning we said that preparatory steps had to be taken, inter alia, in connection with the provision of free books, etc., and that the system would have to be applied on a geographical basis. I think the department already has information in connection with proposals on the areas in which it might be done. But what I am not quite satisfied with here, is the degree of co-operation we are receiving from the parent community. They will have to give their full co-operation because without that we shall experience problems if we have to take action against people who do not meet this obligation. We want to apply the system in such a way that it will not create problems anywhere or in any respect.

The hon. member for Standerton referred in particular to the psychological services, to the valuable work which is being done in this connection. He has also pointed out that it is not so easy to devise standard tests. The hon. member was quite correct in what he said. In all our education departments, and not only in this one, this is perhaps a service which is too easily forgotten. The psychologists who devise certain programmes, who devise standard tests, who apply them, who process the results and feed them back into education to the general benefit of the entire educational system, are sometimes too easily forgotten. The hon. member for Standerton has paid those people a wonderful compliment. It is a good thing that the work they do should also be praised in this House.

I have referred to what the hon. member for Pretoria West said. I am pleased that there are also other people who are thinking in this direction, who do not lose sight of the fact that one must ultimately return to normal circumstances as far as most of these things are concerned. However, I am repeating again that whenever I refer to this, I keep in mind that I do not want to deprive anybody of the opportunity of education or training, and that I am linking it to the provision which is made in our centres for adult education.

There is something else which deserves mention, something which is perhaps insufficiently discussed. Whereas we had approximately 20 centres for adult education last year, we already have no fewer than 61 of them this year. Only recently, I gave my approval for two more. I trust, and express the hope today, that our money will last and that we shall still be able to build many more of these centres because, as I have already said, education and training form the basis of the entire community with which we are working. We should therefore like to place such centres at the disposal of those who, in their youth, did not have the opportunity of acquiring knowledge. In this connection, singularly fine work is being done. In most of the centres, we are progressing from literacy to formal education, and we are concentrating on better qualifications for our teachers to see if they cannot obtain the matriculation certificate.

The hon. member for Gezina referred to the involvement of the parent, and said that the parents should also attend to discipline. That is important. I have already stated on occasion that no education and training can succeed without proper discipline.

The only pity is—and the hon. member referred to that indirectly—that there is still so much intimidation. I am not exaggerating when I say that it is possible for a grade 1 child to go up to a Black school inspector and to tell him that if the entire class does not pass at the end of the year, they will keep an eye on him. It is so serious that an inspector has to take cognizance of what a grade 1 child tells him. It is tragic that one should be confronted with something like this.

But what is the cause of this?

The hon. member is asking what the cause of this is. The cause lies within the community itself, and with White people in some of the posh suburbs who keep the Bantu woman on their premises for 24 hours and do not even want her to go back to her family where her child is without paternal and maternal care. We keep them in our backyards. They must be at our disposal, and when we talk of “White by night” then there is a great uproar. I can quote many examples. And please do not come here and blame the Government for that. The Government is doing many things precisely in order to prevent this, but receives very little assistance in this connection.

Where is there room for them? There are four families in one house.

Order!

The hon. member is kicking up a row, and I do not even know what he is kicking up a row about. If he had wanted a turn to speak, he could have participated in the debate and we could have had a meaningful discussion. He is just making a noise. I do not know whether it has helped him. It has certainly not helped me in the least.

The hon. member for Durban Central spoke about consultation in the drafting of the new Education Act. Before it is published in the Gazette for comment, there will already have been consultation with all the people in education with whom we are co-operating at present. This will take place continually. We shall not do all the thinking first and deliver the product and only bring in these people as an afterthought.

[Inaudible.]

It is the Union Hotel which is troubling that hon. member.

Order! The Union Hotel has nothing to do with this discussion.

The hon. member for Durban Central also referred to the per capita expenditure and said it was lagging far behind what was being spent by the White education department. That is true, although we are making progress. In this connection I can refer, for example, to 1974-’75, when R32,01 per pupil was spent on Black education in primary schools. The figure for post-primary education was R154,62. That gives us an average of R39,53. In 1977-’78, the preliminary figure for primary education is R45,16, and for post-primary education, our figure already stands at R170,63. The average is R57,04. At least there has been some progress, although it is slow.

The hon. member also put a question in connection with the school quota when residential areas are laid out. A week or two ago we spoke to our sister department again—if I may call it that—about the question of quotas again. Often it is not going to be the number of houses approved within a residential area which is going to be the deciding factor.

There may also be lodgers who are taken up in homes, and that can of course make our position rather difficult. At the moment the two departmental Secretaries are looking into the entire question of the quotas laid down to see if more favourable conditions cannot be devised for our department in this connection.

The hon. member also put a question about the presentation of junior secondary courses at teachers’ training colleges. He wanted to know whether such students were still being trained in White areas. The answer to this is “yes”. This year, three new training colleges are under construction at Mabopane, Fort Beaufort and Valsfontein. The last two will be completely operational by 1980-’81.

We know the hon. member for Rissik to be a person who likes analysing things scientifically, and who normally has a sound basis for his arguments. Towards the end he made a few basic points in respect of education, and especially the education in which we are engaged in the continent in which we find ourselves, and one cannot get past those points. One simply has to take cognizance of them. The hon. member also addressed a few nice words to me. He said he would not mind if his children could have me as a teacher. I want to tell him that if that had happened, they would have been in good hands. But I wish that I could have taught a few of the hon. members on the opposite side. Then the hon. members for Pinelands and Durban Central would have been different people! [Interjections.]

You would have had two more drop-outs.

There are also a few other hon. members whom nobody would have been able to set straight, and whom I should not have liked to have had in my class-room. [Interjections.]

The hon. member raised another important matter, namely that apart from national identity and the national ties, there is also the question of the language of the people which must be taken into account when it comes to instruction. It may interest the hon. member to know that at the last graduation ceremony of the University of the North, a student obtained his degree for a thesis which he had written in the Tswana language. It is the first time in history that this has happened. It made me think back to the time a few generations ago, when no thesis could be submitted at any of the universities in Afrikaans. The Tswanas, too, had to do it in another language. Here we have now had the first thesis in the Tswana language. That indicates exceptional progress for that language, and one is grateful for that. I am pleased that the hon. member referred to that.

The hon. member for Alberton pointed out the good progress that had been made at the universities in respect of the number of courses, the number of students, the amounts of money spent on these things, etc. I might just add that our new medical university, Medunsa, is making extremely good progress. We can be proud of it. People from abroad with some knowledge of universities and the training of medical practitioners, recently paid a visit to Medunsa and they told the principal that what had been done here in 18 months, they would not easily achieve in eight or ten years. Consequently there has been excellent progress.

I want to express a last few thoughts. In connection with the physical amenities—this may also interest the hon. member for Pinelands—I am of the opinion that we need to do a rethink. We should perhaps begin to see the building of schools in a different light. We should not adopt the attitude that once the little school has been built, everything has been done. In new areas in particular, where there is perhaps still land available, I think that not only schools should be built, but in fact community centres as well. During the day the children can attend school there and avail themselves of all the facilities, and at night the same building can be used as a centre for the training of adults. The rest of the community can use the school hall for performances and similar activities when the school itself is not using it. Even the sports fields can be used by the community. In other words, the school will not only belong to the principal, the staff and the pupils, but also to the entire community, which can be proud of it and can, in those circumstances, perhaps make a greater contribution to its maintenance and to the expansion of facilities. That is the idea which we and the department should like to carry out. These are definitely the lines along which we are thinking in connection with the establishment of schools in future.

I want to congratulate you on that.

There is another matter I want to come back to after having referred briefly to it earlier today. It has been said that not much is being done to school buildings and school grounds. I am not talking of riot damage now. Let us rather forget about that. In any case, I trust that all the damage will soon have been repaired.

It has been said that in this respect there is not much initiative on the part of the people who ought to play a leading part in this connection, whereas at other schools, one finds that everything shines, that everything is in ship-shape order, and that it creates a nice impression. I have already wondered whether it is possible—I do not know yet, because I still have to discuss it with the department— to grant incentive bonuses or incentive aid to those schools which, with the aid of the parents, or in whatever way this is done, make the educational conditions pleasant for the children. If the others prefer to degenerate, then let them degenerate—if I may state it so bluntly.

“Sack” the rest.

It is not as easy as all that. The granting of incentive aid to those who would like to help, is a principle which is not altogether foreign to our society.

I also want to say something in connection with the universities. In this connection, people might not agree with me, although I do not think they will attack me for that reason. At our universities they also have facilities which are perhaps not being fully utilized. I am thinking, for example, of laboratory facilities and other research facilities. It must be clearly understood: I am by no means detracting from the academic standards set for certain fields of study. But I do think that in respect of our universities in particular we could consider a new idea, namely to institute diploma courses at the universities, especially in the technical fields, so that laboratories etc. could be used for that purpose. It will be to the benefit of the people who could then receive their training in that academic atmosphere. There are good facilities which they can use. In view of the larger numbers of students, it may even be to the benefit of the university itself if it obtains its subsidy on the basis of the number of students enrolled. Then, the number of diploma students could also help considerably.

The hon. member for Houghton must please correct me.

†Did the young man, whom you referred to, attend Yale University? Was it Yale?

Harvard. That obscure university, as the Minister of Justice once called it.

Yes. After all, Harvard is known throughout the world, and I think anybody who has studied at Harvard, is proud …

Thank you very much. [Interjections.]

In spite of its high standards, it often allows people to follow year courses there—it is not even for diplomas—to have an opportunity of broadening their knowledge and background in that atmosphere. Why cannot that also be done at our universities, where in certain departments we have perhaps not sufficient space for all the students? If it were engineering, for example, he would at least be able to study further in the technological field. He would not have been eliminated entirely. I am merely using this as an example. It is not yet a course which is presented there. I am merely mentioning it in passing. I should like to hear other hon. members’ views about that later on.

Now I want to come to a matter which I have stressed all day, and that is that we should not neglect the world in which people live, their background, their domestic milieu and their entire milieu of training as children, when it comes to formal education. In connection with the Black child, I have referred to the fact that he is a child who has been uprooted from a particular milieu which he knows, and he has been placed in a Western orientated school milieu. I have a report here from The Argus of 27 March this year. The heading reads: “Blacks trail in UK schools.” People are worried about that. For the most part it concerns West-Indian pupils. They lag behind hopelessly. They are even behind at the workers’ classes, which in turn lag behind those of the élite classes in Britain.

It is then asked: Why is it so? People look for the reasons in many fields. I quote—

Hear, hear!

There is crops up in a system which is completely different from ours. There are certain attributes in the human being, and of course this also applies to the child, and if one does not take cognizance of them, one is not enriching education and training, but seriously impoverishing it. The very aim of our department is to enrich everyone entrusted to our care, by the education which we offer and which is bound up with his national community and the culture in which he grew up. We believe that we must enrich everyone and that no one should be any the poorer in the end.

Finally, I wish to thank everyone who has participated in the debate. At times we became rather hot under the collar, but at least we had something to say to one another. We shall take cognizance of the views expressed by the various speakers, and we trust that by the time we meet again in Parliament, if we are spared, we shall be able to report further good results and that we shall be able to boast of the progress that has been made.

Vote agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

There can no longer be any doubt that the Government is in earnest with its proposals for a new constitutional structure in South Africa, whereby an effort will be made to establish a just, fair dispensation in which each group will itself have control of its own affairs while common interests will be dealt with by means of joint consultation and joint responsibility. Therefore, since the Government is in earnest about this, and whereas the door remains open for negotiation and further discussions with the Coloured leaders on the proposals envisaged, on 3 March 1978 the Government announced various steps to set in motion the necessary processes for making the new dispensation a reality.

This Bill, the chief aim of which is to set in motion the general registration of Coloured voters, forms part of the process.

Clause 1 provides for the extension of the franchise to Coloured people of 18 years so that the long administrative process of general registration, and everything that goes with it, can begin now. It is calculated that this step, which is supported by the executive of the Coloured Persons Representative Council, will cause the number of registered voters to increase by approximately 165 000.

†Clause 2 provides that not only a person already registered as a voter shall be regarded as competent to witness the application for registration as a voter by another person, but also a person entitled to be registered as such. This will facilitate the registration of voters and will result in a higher number of Coloured persons being registered as voters.

Only a limited number of persons in the Coloured community have as yet been issued with identity documents, and clause 3 provides for the exclusion for the time being of those sections of the Electoral Act requiring the furnishing of identity numbers on applications to vote as absent and special voters.

Mr. Speaker, I am in something of a quandary because I have already announced informally that this Bill is not contentious for us in these benches. As I understand it, it is an amending Bill that amends the Coloured Persons Representative Council Act, No. 49 of 1964. In terms of that Act, the principle of the CRC was already laid down and the Bill at present before the House merely envisages effecting certain amendments to that Act. Certain regulations in connection with the franchise are being effected hereby, certain measures are being laid down in connection with the identification of voters, people who are elected, etc. However, these are not contentious matters and if I interpret the legislation in this way, we have no objection to the Second Reading. It, however, the principle being introduced here concerns the new constitutional dispensation, then the hon. the Minister has put me off my stroke and, I shall have to talk for a very long time and change my plans completely. I should therefore like to have clarity in this regard, Mr. Speaker, because to me these are not two comparable principles that are at stake. As far as I am concerned, the issue is the CRC. May I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker?

Order! My interpretation of the legislation is that it does not contain any constitutional implications, but that it is merely an amendment of the principal Act and nothing more.

Mr. Speaker, in that case we do not have any objection to the Bill being read for a Second Time.

Mr. Speaker, I think it is an historical moment when the hon. Opposition says that this measure is uncontentious. I think it is the first time that a franchise provision has been accepted in this way. It has always been a contentious matter. Therefore I want to welcome the Opposition’s attitude and thank them for it. Unless I am mistaken, this is the first time in 50 years that the qualifications for Whites and Coloureds will now be the same. Even when the franchise was extended to include 18 year old Whites, it was a contentious measure. At that time we had a night sitting to discuss the matter, and that is why I remember it so well. In fact, I made my first speech during that night sitting and it was between about 2 and 3 o’clock in the morning. Even in 1854, when the franchise was introduced for the first time, it was a contentious measure. At that time one had to have an income of at least £25 in order to qualify. I read in Eric Walker’s History of Southern Africa that at the time the farmers said that the Government would be handed over to the carpetbaggers.

I think it is a good thing that we can agree on this measure and I want to thank the hon. the Minister for coming to the House with such a measure. If one takes into consideration how the Coloureds have progressed, one can expect them to use this privilege circumspectly and competently.

Mr. Speaker, I fully understand why the hon. the Minister linked this Bill with the constitutional proposals of the Government. In terms of the standpoint of the NRP we endorse the philosophy of federalism. Therefore, to us it is not so vital that the different elements of which the federation consists, should have precisely the same franchise qualifications. We realize in which direction the hon. the Minister is moving and we also realize that in this case, heads are being counted and not units, as in the case of a federation. I therefore understand why the hon. the Minister has introduced this legislation. We support the legislation. In the past, lowering the franchise qualification always resulted in a major debate, but it is not going to be the case this time since we support the principle. One must admit, however, that in point of fact such a step may have far-reaching results. I therefore believe that the hon. the Minister and the Cabinet did not take this decision lightly. Then I should like to ask the hon. the Minister: To what extent was the existing Coloured Council consulted in connection with the main motivation for this change? The hon. the Minister must also tell me what negotiations were held with them. Finally, I also want to make an appeal to the Coloured people, since there are indications that very few of them have registered yet, to come forward voluntarily as far as possible in order to be registered.

Mr. Speaker, I should like to convey my thanks to the Opposition parties for their support of the legislation. The hon. member for Rondebosch need not be concerned, because whether there is a new dispensation or not, this step has already been decided on and disposed of—this also answers the question of the hon. member for Durban Central—with the Executive of the Coloured Council. It was an undertaking on the part of the Government—if I remember correctly, there were also decisions on the part of the Coloured Persons Representative Council itself that gave rise to this—that this step should be taken now. The Cabinet decided about a year ago that this step would be taken and this is all that the legislation entails. I therefore do not believe that there need be any concern about the implementation of this legislation. I can well imagine that when I come up with other proposals in this regard, the hon. members will debate them. The necessary opportunity will be provided for this. We shall have to wait until that day comes.

I want to let that suffice and once again convey my thanks to the Opposition parties as well as to the hon. member for Caledon for their contribution to the debate.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Agreed to.