intimated that he had exercised the discretion conferred upon him by Standing Order No. 1 (Private Bills) and permitted the Bill, while retaining the form of a private measure, to be proceeded with as a public bill.

reported that the Standing Committee on Vote No. 13.—“Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure”, Vote No. 14.—“Agricultural Economics and Marketing”, and Vote No. 15.—“Agricultural Technical Services”, had agreed to the Votes.

Mr. Chairman, I ask for the privilege of the half hour.

I wish to start off by reminding the hon. the Minister of a few questions I put to him and which have not yet been answered. The first is whether or not the hon. the Minister has instituted a departmental inquiry into the conduct of the Security Police in whose custody Steve Biko died. I am not going to go into any further detail about the Biko case. I believe that was sufficiently covered earlier in the session, and I also understand that there is a case pending against the department in this regard. Nevertheless, the hon. the Minister, who must have read the court record, will have observed a number of glaring irregularities that took place during the period that Biko was in custody. I do know that the Medical Council is examining the conduct of the doctors who examined Biko while he was in custody, and I would hope that, for the good name of South Africa, the hon. the Minister will institute—if he has not already done so—a departmental investigation into the behaviour of the Security Police in whose hands Biko was treated so appallingly and who died such an unspeakable death.

I also want to remind the hon. the Minister that I have raised with him the question of the abuse of the use of section 6 of the Terrorism Act. This Act, by its very nature, lends itself to abuse because it enables people to be held in solitary confinement for indefinite periods. I have pointed out to the hon. the Minister that the motivation given us in 1967, when the Act was introduced, is very different indeed from the manner in which the Act is being enforced. The police are using the Act in order to circumvent the rather tedious processes of the law whereby, if they arrest people, they have to produce them in court within 48 hours. They arrest people en masse and then divide them up into those whom they wish to be witnesses and those whom they wish to be the accused, and long periods of interrogation in solitary confinement are the next steps taken by the police. I believe all this is a gross abuse of an Act which was meant to be used only in exceptional circumstances and under exceptional conditions.

I therefore hope that apart from appointing the two jurists, who are to have the power to visit detainees under section 6 at any time and without prior notice, the hon. the Minister will also go into the matter of the enforcement of section 6 by the Security Branch.

I want to say a few words about the departmental report. In this report, on page 1, one paragraph is devoted to the riots which started just before the beginning of the year covered by this report. That is the period 1 July 1976 to 30 June 1977. We are told that riot squads now have modern equipment, that the primary aim of these squads is wherever possible to combat riots, using the least possible amount of force. I must say at once that I am very glad indeed to hear this and that it is a pity that these modern techniques were not used earlier, during the first tragic days of the unrest when so many lives were lost.

I must say, too, that I was very surprised indeed to read that, generally speaking, the crime position is thoroughly under control. I can only assume that the Commissioner must have excluded Soweto from his generalization, because the figures that were given to me in respect of Soweto for the period under review certainly do not bear out this sweeping statement. According to the reply the hon. the Minister gave me, 808 murders were reported and 304 murders brought to trial; 1 289 cases of rape reported and 604 brought to trial; and 7 325 assaults with intent to commit grievous bodily harm reported of which 3 621 were brought to trial. I do not identify pass raids during which thousands of people are arrested, as being successful combating of crime, either generally or specifically.

I would also point out to the hon. the Minister—although this is a period not covered by the report—that there are still a large number of unsolved murders, e.g. the murder of Dr. and Mrs. Robert Smit of Springs, the murder of Dr. Rick Turner, the murder of Sergeant Nkosi, and, of course, the murder of the two small boys in Hillbrow.

I want to come to the question of another unsolved crime, the crime involving Donald Woods and the T-shirt incident. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister what he meant by the insinuation—in fact, it was more than an insinuation; it was almost a direct accusation—that Donald Woods had placed acid which burnt his small daughter very badly on the T-shirt himself. There can be no other explanation for the extraordinary statement made by the hon. the Minister that he had received a declaration from some gentleman —whose name he gave to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition—stating that this man had in fact given Donald Woods the name of this chemical as a response to a favourable article about his factory which Woods is said to have written in the Daily Dispatch. Needless to say, Donald Woods denies this emphatically. [Interjections.] I do not deny that the hon. the Minister received such a declaration, but why he did not throw this rubbish into the wastepaper basket where it belonged, is beyond me. Instead of doing that, he insinuated quite clearly that the acid which burnt the small Woods child was placed on the shirt by Donald Woods himself.

Of course!

The hon. the Chief Whip says “of course!”. In view of that, I shall tell him what Donald Woods says in reply, because he cannot be quoted outside this House. Indeed, Donald Woods claims that two security policemen were seen collecting the parcel at the post office in East London. I have their names, and I think the hon. the Minister has their names. They were actually seen collecting this parcel containing the T-shirt. He denies categorically that he had anything whatever to do with it. I am amazed that the hon. the Minister should ever have attempted to spread a smear of that nature against a man who is banned and who is unable to defend himself. I want that on record in this House. As I have said, this is another unsolved crime.

I wonder whether the hon. the Minister ever studies carefully any of the statistics that he gives me in reply to questions in the House, because I would like to know whether he has any explanation for the steady increase, as of the last three years, in the number of people who have died in police cells after arrest. I am not now referring to any people who are detained in terms of the security laws.

Would you at the same time tell us about the 35 people who are supposed to have died after the death of Biko?

I did not say they had died after Biko’s death. I said the hon. the Minister had employed the jurists 35 deaths too late. There have in fact been 35 deaths in detention since the hon. the Minister took over this portfolio. There were ten prior to that when the hon. the Prime Minister was the Minister of Justice and was administering the 90-day law. Those are the figures. I did not say 35 people had died after Biko. In fact, I think four people have died since the Biko death. Anyway, the people I am referring to are persons who have been arrested for all sorts of crimes. In 1975 92 such people died in police cells. In 1976 117 people died in police cells, and in 1977 the figure was 128. There is quite a high percentage of suicides. There were 24 suicides in 1975, 19 in 1976 and 28 in 1977. I find this surprising. These people are surely not alone in the cells. How come no alarms are given? How come there is such lax supervision over people who are in police cells, and who are presumably awaiting-trial prisoners? I believe these are serious matters, and I think they are matters to which the hon. the Minister must give very special attention.

You sound like Agatha Christie!

Well, I am Agatha Christie in so far as I am using figures and statistics supplied to me in this House by the hon. the Minister. I think it is very important that this House should take cognizance of these figures so that we know exactly what is going on in the police cells in South Africa. I shall leave the matter there.

Mr. Chairman, presently I shall come back to the speech of the hon. member for Houghton, which was to a great extent a mere repetition of the speech she made last Friday. Before I come to that, I want to refer briefly to the retirement of Gen. Prinsloo and the arrival of his replacement. Other, more important people have already paid full tribute to Gen. Prinsloo, but on behalf of my colleagues on this side of the House, I should also like to convey my best wishes to Gen. Prinsloo in his absence. We are particularly grateful and appreciative of the way in which he occupied the position of Commissioner of the S.A. Police. Without going into details, I think one can content oneself with saying that the chief impression he left behind, was that he was a father to the Police Force whose door was always open to everyone, both members of the Force and members of the public. We should like to address a word of hearty welcome to Gen. Mike Geldenhuys, who will now become Commissioner in Gen. Prinsloo’s place. He is a young man, and I feel he is particularly well equipped for the demands which the present time makes on him. All we want to tell him is that we on this side of the House wish him everything of the best with this difficult task which he is carrying out, and we also assure him of our support in this regard.

We are very grateful for the extremely comprehensive and informative report which we once again received from the retiring Commissioner of Police this year. This is what we have become used to with his reports in the past It appears that in general things are going well with the S.A. Police, and it is noticeable that this is in fact because of the very capable control and management and the particularly positive disposition of the members of the Force. I think few of us who walk around in the streets from day to day know what silent, ministering, safeguarding work the S.A. Police actually do for us every day. Whether it is in the cold of the night or the heat of the day, somewhere there is a member of the S.A. Police Force on duty, available for emergencies, crimes, assistance to a lost child in the street, where crowds gather at sports fields, where catastrophies take place, or wherever their services are required.

To sum up, I just want to say that the entire Police Force must know that South Africa appreciates the services which they provide under difficult circumstances. We on this side of the House are sympathetic towards their problems and their needs, and we salute them for their loyalty. I also want to tell the public of South Africa that every law-abiding citizen in South Africa may know that he has a friend in a member of the Police Force to whom he can turn when he has a special problem.

As a result of what she said here this afternoon, the hon. member for Houghton has forced me to draw attention to her speech of Friday afternoon. She did not raise many matters, but those that she did raise which I cannot deal with, will be dealt with by other hon. members on this side. What she said this afternoon, she actually said in a more untempered way last Friday. I quote—

Apparently, the hon. member is basically opposed to the elucidation which was given at the time. At the time, in 1967, terrorism was something which was more inclined to manifest itself in the uninhabited, wooded areas of South Africa than is the case at the moment. However, the hon. member became angry because this legislation is being applied to urban areas. However, section 6 of the Terrorism Act does not mention urban or wooded areas. All it says is that if an officer of the S.A. Police of or above the rank of lieutenant-colonel may, if he has reason to believe that any person is a terrorist or has any information about terrorists or to offences relating to terrorism, arrest such a person and detain him for questioning until the Commissioner orders his release. This is what the Act provides. It does not draw any distinction between a terrorist in the bush and an urban terrorist, or between terrorism in a jungle of bushes and trees and terrorism in a jungle of steel and concrete. However, what does the hon. member for Houghton do? Does she want to allege that she is a naïve senior South African politician who, through the dictates of her conscience, feels aggrieved about the misapplication of a specific Act, or do we have someone here who is extremely sympathetic towards the inciters and those who commit these detestable deeds? This is something which we ought to clarify in this debate. If she does not want to tell us, some of her colleagues in this party who possess a legal grounding, must tell us what their standpoint in connection with urban terrorism is, because this is what we are dealing with in South Africa at the moment. I want to tell the hon. member for Houghton that on Friday she was acting as a protagonist when she said—I quote (Hansard, 12 May)—

She went on to say—

According to all expert analyses of the present onslaught on South Africa, urban terrorism is the most important spearhead against the legal dispensation in South Africa. This applies to the ANC, the PAC and also to the newest of the lot, i.e. the Southern African Students Movement.

I hope I have time to explain to the House for a few moments a little of what the Southern African Students Movement is actually about. I want to state categorically that it is the umbrella organization for all the Black Power movements in their international liaison. This organization was established in Lesotho in 1973.

Order! The hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I rise to give the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon. member.

*In one of the organization’s documents it is said—

I state categorically that the Southern African Students Movement is an out-and-out communist or rather Marxist organization. This is clear from the terminology which is used in that movement. They speak about “capitalist economic structures” and “a bourgeois State”. It is also evident from the following—

In their “programme” they speak of “a democratic Republic of Azania’s people”. They speak of—

They refer to the Shah of Iran as a “reactionary”. They speak of their solidarity with freedom movements throughout the world. I ask the hon. member for Houghton whether she knows this language and whether she knows whose language it is. I want to assure her that it is the language of the Marxist and the language of the Black Power movements, which has been behind all the riots, unrest and rebellion in Soweto and elsewhere in South Africa over the past two years. They are the people of the communist world, and to them South Africa is the next target. Terrorism is the declared spearhead of their movement. The revolutionary powers have a definition for terrorism and I think we in South Africa must take note of it They say that terrorism is merely the theatre and is aimed at the spectators. Here they mean the general public, and in South Africa this means Whites, Blacks, Coloureds and Asians.

Terrorism is meant to demoralize the citizens and to demonstrate the presence of the terrorist to the world.

Terrorism itself is not the end-product of the onslaught; it paves the way and, depending on its success, the final onslaught will either succeed very well with little opposition, or fail. In its far-sightedness, the NP passed the Terrorism Act in 1967 in order to counteract this, and it is the application of this Act to which the hon. member for Houghton is opposed today.

I want to assure her that terrorism is precisely the same in South Africa, Italy, West Germany, France, Holland, England and the USA. The manuals, the directives, the training and the weapons can all ultimately be traced back to the same source. There is no difference between the cowardly murder of statesman Aldo Moro by the Red Brigade, the murders of West German industrialists by the Baader-Meinhoff gang and the murder of members of the security branch of the S.A. Police, for instance the murder of Sgt. Leonard Nkosi as well as such attacks and attempted murders, such as the attempts on the life of Steven Mtschali. Since I am speaking about Sgt. Leonard Nkosi, I want to remind the hon. member for Houghton that I have never heard her expressing sympathy for Sgt. Nkosi’s next-of-kin. I have not yet heard her condemn the murderers of Sgt. Nkosi. I have not yet heard her do so, and I am waiting for it. Perhaps she will do so in this debate or other hon. members of her party may do so. However, if someone on the other side is touched or anything happens to him, one can hear her voice as far away as the United Nations.

It is not really necessary, but for the sake of the record let us teach her a lesson and tell her that the Black Power Organizations in South Africa are aiming their onslaughts at the members of the Security Branch and their families. There have already been such onslaughts when hand-grenades were thrown at the homes of Black members of the Security Branch. We experienced urban terrorism in South Africa with the explosion at the Carlton Centre, and we also experienced it with the murder of two White men in Goch Street. Urban terrorists were also involved in the Border Gate incident when two policemen were seriously injured when hand-grenades were thrown into their vehicle.

Now the hon. member for Houghton comes along and speaks about the “gross abuse of an Act meant to be used in exceptional circumstances”. Does that hon. member want to tell South Africa that the times we are experiencing at the moment can be considered to be “normal circumstances”?

In the light of the communist onslaught on it, does the Western world find itself in “normal circumstances” at the moment? If South Africa had not had such legislation as the Terrorism Act, inter alia, I do not think that we would have met here in Parliament today. However, it was the timeous farsightedness of the Government which helped us to have the stability, the peace and order in this country which we are experiencing so prosperously at the moment, that hon. member too. I do not think we can allow the hon. member for Houghton and her party to noise this type of language abroad any longer. Parliament must call them to order, and we on this side of the House are doing so now and telling them that they must stop noising this type of propaganda against the Security Police abroad.

The public of South Africa must know that we must expect urban terrorism. Urban terrorism is a phase of the communist onslaught and manifests itself throughout the world. The people in England, Europe and Israel have already learned to live with it. In the light of the quality of our Security Police, I think that we will eventually eradicate terrorism in South Africa completely. Until such time as this happens, the people of South Africa must resist in spirit and will the attempts by the urban terrorist to undermine our very will to survive.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just sat down referred to Gen. Prinsloo and to Gen. Geldenhuys and I would like to associate myself and my colleagues on these benches with his remarks. We would like to wish Gen. Prinsloo and his wife a very happy retirement and we would welcome Gen. Geldenhuys to his new position. I very sincerely hope that his task, standing at the head of our police is not as difficult a one as his predecessor’s and that matters in relation to internal security will de-escalate rather than escalate, thus making his job easier.

I would also like to welcome the announcement made by the hon. the Minister of Police in connection with a number of matters that affect the police. There are two things in particular that I wish to mention. The first is the granting of free uniforms to the police. I welcome this particularly because I know that the situation of the S.A. Police, when compared to the position of the Railway Police and to the Defence Force, make them very unhappy. I therefore welcome the hon. the Minister’s announcement. I also welcome his announcement in regard to external exams for the police. I believe that this also is a step in the right direction.

As this is the first time that I am taking part in discussing the Police Vote and also the first time for the party which I represent, I believe we should make our feelings perfectly clear in regard to the Police Force in South Africa. In the first place one has to realize that the police do not make the law. It is their job to administer the law and to control what can at times be an unruly population. They do not have an enviable job, but they have to do it: They have to carry out the laws that are made by Parliament. The hon. the Minister of Police has a great responsibility. With increasing violence in South Africa, with urban terrorism, with social unrest and disturbances, the population needs protection and it is the task of our Police Force to provide that protection. They are our first line of defence against ultimate anarchy. I believe we in South Africa, and we in this House, must do everything we possibly can to support, help and identify ourselves with our Police Force. However, I believe the hon. the Minister has nevertheless proved somewhat derelict in his duty concerning the trust that the Government had placed in him in regard to police matters. In my view he has failed to adequately support, pay and enlarge the Police Force. We believe he does not look after the Police Force sufficiently, and the first thing we must look at in this regard is the pay of the Police Force in South Africa today.

First of all there is tremendous discrimination within the Police Force in terms of colour. After all, a Black policeman and a White policeman are just as dead when they are caught on the wrong side of a rock during civil unrest. Yet, the White police constable receives a maximum pay of R4 830 per annum, whereas the Bantu police constable receives a maximum pay of R2 454 per annum—almost half the amount. I believe the hon. the Minister should be called upon to do his utmost to equalize the pay of White, Indian, Coloured and Black in the Police Force at the soonest possible moment.

I should also like to touch on a second aspect concerning the pay of the police. I put a question to the hon. the Minister of Transport to ask what he pays the Railway Police. The answer was somewhat startling and proves my contention that the hon. the Minister of Police is not adequately looking after the S.A. Police.

He gets his money from the taxpayer.

Of course he gets his money from the taxpayer, but he defends that taxpayer, and I think that is the important thing. It is the taxpayer’s life he is protecting. As I have said, the White police constable in the S.A. Police gets a maximum salary of R4 830 per annum while his equivalent in the Railway Police can go to a maximum of R5 544 per annum; in other words, R614 more per annum. Can we really say with any degree of sincerity that the job of the Railway policeman is anymore difficult than the job of the man in the S.A. Police? For what reason does the Railway policeman get more? The same situation exists as far as sergeants are concerned. A Railway Police sergeant gets more than the S.A. Police sergeant. Of course, they will now be receiving free uniforms. As I have said, this was going to be part of my speech, but that ground has been cut out from underneath me. In this respect there is at least a degree of equality.

However, on top of this, the Railway Police do a lot of overtime and get well paid for it, whereas the S.A. Police get no overtime whatsoever. Imagine yourself, Mr. Chairman, a policeman working in the recent riots. Think of the tremendous amount of overtime you would have had to put in and think of the many, many times you were not able to go home. Think of the times when you had rocks thrown at you and where, for a couple of weeks on end, you lived a miserable life. Then you meet your friend, the S.A. Railway Police constable, who was perhaps called out on overtime and you find that he has earned hundreds of rands of overtime during the course of the riots, whereas you earned nothing. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that were you in this situation, you would not have felt very happy about it. I assure you that I would not have felt happy. I believe the hon. the Minister must do something in connection with the pay of the Police Force. He must try to get the situation on a more equitable footing in comparison with the pay and standards of the Railway Police at least.

The next subject on which I should like to touch on is the situation as regards to the non-uniform branch of the police, i.e. the CID. They receive the same scales of pay. Whether they are in the uniformed branch or in the non-uniformed branch, the maximum salary per year, as I understand, is R4 830 for a constable. Is this right? Should one pay the non-uniformed branch on the same basis as one pays the uniformed branch? In other countries this does not happen. The British Bobby, for instance, has the ambition of becoming part of Scotland Yard. It represents a leg-up and the achieving of an ambition. In the same way a New York cop aspires to become a member of their CID branch. These are the people overseas who solve crimes and who receive somewhat more recognition. I believe that while prevention of crime—the task of the uniformed branch—is most important, the solving of crimes perhaps requires a great degree of application, integrity and intelligence. They are the people who have to solve the crimes. Therefore we believe they should be put on a different rung than the uniformed branch. If one did this, I believe one would then have a better enrolment in the non-uniformed branch, because then the man on the beat would aspire to become a detective. He would then apply himself to it and try to pass the examinations in order to become a member of the non-uniformed branch in which he would receive better pay and attain better status, because, after all, these are the people who solve crimes. They put the murderers behind bars. It is a dangerous job and requires intelligence, skill and bravery. We should encourage the uniformed policemen to try for the CID, which would represent a leg-up for them. Of course, one must then give them more pay and privileges. Does this House realize that a CID detective who is investigating many dockets of murder, arson, or whatever it might be … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I have merely risen to give the hon. member for East London North an opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. Whip for the privilege.

†As I have said, this CID detective could have been in the Police Force for a long time and solving murder cases, yet at the same time his take-home pay can be less than R400 per month. Here is a person who is protecting our community and has done so for many years, but he can take home less than R400 per month. When he comes home after many hours of overtime, he has to send his wife out to work so that they can maintain some sort of living standard. Overtime is compulsory when they are investigating lengthy cases. Sometimes they have to work 24 hour shifts. During this time they have to drive vehicles, and because they are overtired there is the possibility of accidents occurring. When they have an accident, they have to pay for the damage. If they complain about their lot, very often they find that their promotion chances are endangered. So, I sometimes wonder whether the hon. the Minister is giving sufficient attention to his policemen.

What is the result of this neglect? I believe the figures show this fairly clearly. According to the last report we are at the moment short of 1 771 policemen. Even though the report of the Commissioner says that recruiting efforts have been successful, the crime rate and the number of offences have risen by 6,4% in the last two years while the number of cases which have been solved has dropped from 70,7% to 67,9%. In other words, we have 337 000 unsolved offences. Murder in this country in the year under review has increased by 26%—1 560 cases during the last year. Solved cases, however, have dropped to 69,7% compared with 75,95%—a drop of 6,25% in the solving of murder cases. There are 9 495 stolen cars which have not been recovered, compared with 6 396 the previous year—an increase of nearly 50%. Let me stress: I do not wish to blame the police for this. I believe we must look at the hon. the Minister when we want to apportion the blame.

There is another point which I believe is cogent to the question, namely the number of police per 1 000 head of population. In 1965-’66 there were 1,79 policemen for every 1 000 head of population. By 1975-’76—the last year for which figures are printed in the report—this had dropped to 1,32. It is a big drop, from 1,79 to 1,32 per 1 000 head of population. It becomes even worse when one sees that the prosecutions per 1 000 head of population dropped from 32 in 1966-’67 to only 17 in 1975-’76.

Are you reading your speech?

I shall deal with that hon. member on the squash court at a later stage. Figures are not given in the latest report of the Commissioner of Police as regards the number of prosecutions per 1 000 head of population, but by putting a question to the hon. the Minister I was able to ascertain that that figure still remains at 17 prosecutions per 1 000 head of population. As I have said, for 1966-’67 the figure was 32.

One must remember that our police are in the front line and can come to grief. In fact, 70 policemen lost their lives in the execution of their duty over the last three years.

Finally, I wish to refer to the lot of the police reservist. I have here a cutting from the Sunday Times of 16 April. It refers to unhappy police reservists who threaten to quit. Many reasons are given for this. One reason that I have established to be correct, and through research I have established that something should be done about this, is the situation regarding the training of the police reservist. People are taken into the police reserve and basically are given very little training. If someone is clerically inclined they are inclined to put him in the charge office and he spends the rest of his time there. He does not get a proper training programme, and I believe a training programme should be instituted as a matter of urgency by the hon. the Minister for police reservists, a programme during which they are trained in every possible aspect of their duty as a police reservist.

To sum up, I call upon the hon. the Minister to improve working conditions and the benefits of the police generally. I call upon him to improve the status of the non-uniformed branch, to enable them to attract more recruits. I ask him to have an in-depth investigation to establish the problem areas in all branches and at all levels of the Police Force and to ensure, in carrying out such an investigation, that those who speak out are not victimized by their superiors at a later date. I ask him to do this so that South Africa can know that its Police Force has a high morale and will handle anyone imposing threats, or action, or terrorism against our country with distinction.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for East London North has raised quite a number of matters. I do not think it is possible for me to respond to them adequately in the short time available to me. Therefore I shall only make a few observations.

In the first place, I want to refer to the hon. member’s remarks on the shortage of policemen. If I understood him correctly, he said that he did not blame the police for the fact that crimes were not being solved efficiently, but that he laid it at the door of the hon. the Minister. I do not know his motivation for making such a remark, but I just want to point out to the hon. member that he can help by motivating and encouraging the members of his language group to join the S.A. Police Force. Of the 3 027 people recruited and approved by the Police Force during the year covered by this report, only 503 were English speaking. I think it is the duty of someone like the hon. member for East London North to motivate English-speaking people to join this very fine Police Force.

The hon. member also mentioned the differences in salaries between White and non-White policemen and between the staff of the S.A. Police and the Railway Police. As far as the former matter is concerned, the hon. member is perfectly aware of the fact that progress is being made in a positive direction. The hon. member also knows that this is a historic difference and that attention is being given to it.

As far as the second aspect is concerned, we feel, just like the hon. member, that this is a matter which should be viewed in a very sympathetic light. However, if the hon. member looks at the speech made by the hon. the Minister in last year’s debate on the Police Vote, he will find the answer there. I am not going to elaborate on the matter. All I want to say is that the hon. member knows himself that the police fall under the Public Service Commission and that the Police Force, unlike the Railways, is not a department which generates income. There are problems in this connection, but it is an aspect to which we are very sympathetically disposed.

When one looks at the annual report of the Commissioner of Police, as well as the annual reports of the past, one cannot help concluding that the police are doing an enormous job in South Africa. When one takes cognizance of the fact that the population of South Africa is only twice the size of that of New York, that the area of our country is five times that of Great Britain, and that our Police Force is only as big as that of New York, we realize how much our Police Force is actually achieving. We know that Mr. Chirac recently made an appeal in France for the Paris police force to be expanded, a police force consisting of 13 300 men—just about as big as the White Police Force in South Africa. When a police force does such responsible work, and does it as successfully as the S.A. Police, one can only pay tribute to it. I have said before, and I repeat, that I think the time has come for us to think of putting up a monument to the unknown constable as well. It must be a monument where a flame is kept burning, a, flame which can serve to symbolize the gratitude of the South African people to its Police Force, such a small police force to which we owe so much.

We see that tribute is paid to the S.A. Police by all the various sections of the population, by the Roman Catholic church, by people in Soweto and elsewhere. Only one jarring note is heard, and this comes from the hon. member for Houghton and from the liberal English Press, a Press which follows the example of the hon. member for Houghton, of course. In this respect I should just like to refer to one aspect. I am glad to see that the hon. member for Bezuidenhout is in the House. I want to ask him whether he agrees that the powers of detention which the Administrator-General in South West Africa possesses are exactly the same in their scope as those which the hon. the Minister of Police possesses in South Africa.

No, it is not true.

It is not true.

Basically it is exactly the same thing. [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

The hon. the Minister made it clear again in Friday’s debate that that Act was in fact derived from our legislation.

Not the Terrorism Act. [Interjections.]

Basically it is exactly the same thing. If there are differences, I should be gratified if hon. members of the PFP would point them out to me.

[Inaudible.] [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout is reported, in The Argus of 19 April, to have said—

In South West Africa—

Mr. Steyn is under pressure to remove the threat; are we not under pressure? Do we not have to maintain order and security in South Africa? Do we not have to uphold Western standards here? Do we not have to ensure that politics is practised in a free and undisturbed society? I put these questions to the hon. member for Bezuidenhout.

It depends on how you do it.

What is the difference in the way it is applied? Take, for example, the notification of members of the family which hon. members are so concerned about. In 99% of the cases, the person concerned is arrested in the presence of his family. In the small number of cases where the relatives are not present, it is an enormous task for the police to trace the family.

There are very clear differences.

They are instructed from above not to divulge the names of their relatives to the police, but the Press gets hold of those names in any case. The Press then goes running to the hon. member for Houghton and she broadcasts her story to the world. This is the true position.

Powers described by the Home Secretary as Draconian are condoned in the case of England. However, such powers may never ever be used in South Africa; here we can have chaos and disorder, because we are not allowed to use the right of detention here. I am talking about the principle of detention and I am asking where the logic of such an argument is. I want to know of the hon. member for Bezuidenhout what fundamental logic there is in such an argument.

I can understand if there are some problems about the application of these measures. We allow the district surgeon to visit the detainees. Magistrates may also visit them. The hon. the Minister has announced that people of the stature of Mr. Mouton and Mr. Van den Berg will henceforth be able to visit the detainees. The principle remains exactly the same. The hon. members of the Official Opposition must indicate in this House to what extent there is a difference in principle between the situation in South West Africa and the situation in South Africa.

As far as the annual report of the Commissioner of Police is concerned, I want to emphasize a further matter. Since the police have to do their work in difficult circumstances and since their work is tremendously responsible, I fully agree with the Commissioner that when expenditure is curtailed, the share of the S.A. Police in safeguarding the Republic and all its people must not be underestimated. I think this is a very important aspect.

I now come to the death of people in prison. It must be remembered that over the past year, only 10 persons detained in terms of security legislation died in prison. If one considers the total number of people detained in terms of security legislation, this amounts to 0,0002%. Therefore, two out of every ten thousand detained under security legislation died. Surely this is a record to be proud of. Of those 10 persons, three died of natural causes, while five committed suicide. One of the two remaining cases was that of Steve Biko, and in the last case, the finding is not yet known. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the course of my speech I should like to associate myself with the positive remarks by the hon. member for Brakpan in respect of the Police.

Please permit me to remind the Committee that the hon. member for East London North, in an earlier debate, addressed less flattering remarks to the hon. members who read their speeches. I want to tell him today that the speech which he read this afternoon, was one of his more positive speeches. I wish to express the hope—with your permission, Sir—that he will read his speeches more often.

There was, to me, a very characteristic difference in approach between the hon. member for East London North and the Official Opposition as far as the debate on the police was concerned. The NRP—through their chief spokesman—has, in my view, expressed criticism of the hon. the Minister of Police and the Police Force as such, but I think they succeeded—and I want to give them credit for it—in not dragging in the policeman as a member of the Police Force. I think they succeeded in distinguishing between the policy on, and the approach to, the administration of police matters on the one hand—which is a political aspect—and the Police Force as such, on the other hand.

But what is the attitude of their colleagues, the members of the Official Opposition? It is a negative, destructive attitude which be-speaks an inability to think positively or creatively about the administration of the police in any way. If time permits, I shall again exchange a few words with the members of the Official Opposition about this.

In terms of section 5 of Act 7 of 1958, the functions of the Police are, amongst other things, to maintain law and order, to ensure and preserve internal security, to investigate any offence or alleged offence, and also to prevent crime. This is no minor task. To equip a police student within a limited time to carry out his task, demands a great deal from the instructors—and of course a great deal from the police student himself as well. The very successful police chief of the Chicago Police Force, Mr. O. W. Wilson, once said—

For that reason, an effort is being made in changed circumstances to see to it that during his training, the police officer is equipped with the foundation on which he can build to carry out his multifarious and diverse tasks with so much success. Therefore only a few aspects are concentrated on in order to equip him physically, mentally and spiritually to face up to these challenges.

On reading a treatise written by Mr. G. N. van den Berg on the police service in the South African Republic before 1881, two aspects are striking. By that I am not implying that they are spelt out so directly by the author. On the one hand, mention is made of the fact that to the extent that a nation or population group changes in character, patterns of crime change accordingly. One can therefore note that urbanization and industrial development have had a particular influence on the patterns of crime. We need merely take note of the previously much discussed and stereotyped stock theft as opposed to the very technical and statutory offences and crimes against the State that confront the Police Force today.

Therefore I am convinced that the police should devote special attention to the changing patterns in respect of crime. However, I have the fullest confidence that the police are meeting this challenge in every respect. They ought to attend in particular to the refining of their approach to the in-service training of the policeman.

Arising out of the treatise mentioned, there is a second matter which deserves particular attention, viz. the involvement and identification with the policeman on the part of the community. When a police constable is given to a community at the end of his training, and the community, in turn, inherits a policeman who is equipped to play a role on behalf of John Citizen in the maintenance of security and in ensuring an orderly society, then—I say this with respect—I have misgivings as to whether South Africans give enough in return in their appreciation for the police. I think John Citizen ought to realize that the S.A. Police perform a very humble task under very difficult circumstances. When in his tribute to Gen. Van den Berg the hon. the Minister said that he was a man of few words, but a dedicated policeman with remarkable judgment and a gift of not getting excited about all kinds of petty issues, those words were also applicable to every police officer who unobtrusively performs an indispensable role in South Africa. We should note what Brig. Jan Visser said when he testified about the role the S.A. Police had played in Soweto. It appeared in Die Vaderland under the heading: “So het die skole in Soweto kalm geword.” He said that the physical presence of the police generated the confidence among scholars, parents and teachers which was necessary if they were not to yield to intimidation.

In conclusion, I want to say that I am of the opinion that historians and researchers have not yet given rightful recognition to the monumental role which the S.A. Police have played since 1910. I think that there is justification for my point of view. There are also academic findings which indicate that there is a need to record the historic events and highlights in the history of the S.A. Police. There is a great deal of scope for research into the role of the police and the image of the police in the eyes of John Citizen. There are brief research documents which indicate that in certain parts of the society, and also in certain geographical areas, the police have a particularly favourable image, whereas in other areas they have a less favourable image. There is also scope for proper research into the training of the police. I am convinced that those who are already engaged in this research, deserve encouragement and further support.

The Official Opposition ought to repudiate their hangers-on when they come along with slogans such as “Police threaten the public peace” and “Police are the outward and visible sign of a corrupt system”. Unless they repudiate these people, they, too, are an instrument used to undermine the authority of the police as an institution of the authority of the State.

Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the hon. member for Krugersdorp that I dispute the claim that the role of this side of the House is negative. The contrary is true. We recognize the importance of the role played by the S.A. Police. It is, however, our function as Official Opposition to level criticism where criticism is due, and I think we are carrying that function out.

I want to refer today to the murder of two young boys. This incident caused a tremendous stir and gave rise to a lot of public feeling in the city of Johannesburg and particularly in Hillbrow where the crime had its origin. For a number of years now Johannesburg city councillors and other public representatives have been complaining about the high crime rate, and particularly the mugging, in Hillbrow. One has only to visit the area and knock at any door to see how afraid people are to open their doors.

Matters recently reached a climax when the hon. member for Yeoville went to see the hon. the Minister of Police. The meeting took place and in consultation with Gen. Geldenhuys action followed immediately. I want to thank them for the action they have taken. In passing I want to congratulate Gen. Geldenhuys on his appointment and I want to wish him well in his high position with the responsibility which now rests on his shoulders. My visit to Hillbrow over the weekend after the police action showed that there is a marked change in the area. I am constantly in touch with the area, and my information is that the people are thankful for the action that has been taken. In fact, they ask: “Why was it not taken before? Why did we have to wait until the murder of two young boys occurred before this happened?” However, I am afraid it is necessary to carry on in this manner in order to keep up with the situation and I think periodic raids will be necessary to maintain the position as it is at the moment. If there is any measure of inconvenience. I compare this inconvenience with that experienced by air passengers who have to be delayed to enable a search to be carried out. They know it is for their own good. I am sure that the police will not arrest people in Hillbrow purely for the sake of arresting them or simply because they are not carrying their passes. I am sure they will arrest those who are infringing the law, irrespective of what their race is.

What we need in Hillbrow is a change of policy. We need a precinct cop, someone in charge of a particular area who gets to know that area and someone the people in that area will get to know. We need a restructuring of the establishment which is laid down for that area. We need regular patrols, the Bobby on the beat, which, I suggest, is the only effective way, and we urge the hon. the Minister to introduce such a system. It has been suggested that vigilante committees should be formed, but we cannot support such vigilante committees. If they want to do something they should join the police reservists. This is also not the opportunity for right-wing organizations to start making challenges.

The murder of these two boys leads one to consider the question of unsolved crimes. We want to know what is happening because some time has elapsed since the murder, and we want to know whether any progress has been made in solving this murder. We hope this murder does not go into the limbo of forgotten murders, as has the murder of Justice Kuper. Talking about unsolved murders, as the hon. member for Houghton also did, we also think of the Standard Bank robbery at Krugersdorp and we also hope that some progress has been made in regard to this case. There is also the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Robert Smit. So, whereas the report referred to the fact that 92% of all crime cases are solved, these are nevertheless some of the major cases that still have to be solved.

However, I think it is time we took a cold, hard look at the police and at recruitment. In paragraph 4(4) of the report of the Commissioner of Police it is mentioned that there were 4 715 applicants last year of whom only 3 027 were approved. This may well include those who are doing military service for two years. The question is how long they stay in the Police Force. According to my information, the problem arises in the early stages where the turn-over could be as much as one-third of those who have been recruited. However, I do not think one can blame them when one compares their salaries to establish just how attractive it is. I was very pleased to see that the NRP, through the hon. member for East London North, has reacted to what the hon. member for Houghton did on Friday when she indicated we would raise the question of the salaries of policemen. Unfortunately, the hon. member for East London North made one or two misleading statements which I wish to rectify. Recruits undergo police training for six months and thereafter their total pay—after deductions—amounts to R155,97 per months when they qualify after if they have matriculated, or R125,45 if they have a Standard VIII or IX certificate. This figure includes the latest 5% increase. But a shorthand typist, also after six months training, already gets R230 net and after the first year R275 net per month when a constable after one year’s service gets R170,97 per month if matriculated and R145 if not. The hon. member for East London North referred to a salary of R4 380, but forgot to tell the House that it takes 12 years to progress from R155 per month, the starting salary of a constable, to the R4 380 he referred to.

I said R4 830 was the maximum for the grade.

After two years a typist will receive R350 net whereas a constable will get only R185 if matriculated and R155 if not. After the third year a typist may get R350 net whereas a constable will get only R200,97 per month if matriculated and R170 if not. Can one compare the responsibilities, the duties and the risks to which a constable is exposed daily to that of a typist? If a constable is matriculated he is promoted to sergeant within three years, and he then earns R275 a month. Two years later, he is promoted to adjudant officer at a salary of R344 a month. Two years after that, he is made a lieutenant at a salary of R443 a month. Five years after that, he is made a captain at a salary of R558 a month and, five years thereafter, if he is lucky, he becomes a major at R665 a month. In other words, after 17 years he receives R665 a month and then after another five years, i.e. after 22 years, he can be promoted to lieutenant-general at a salary of R780 a month. Although the salary scales at this level can do with revision from time to time in accordance with the cost of living, it is in the lower echelons, particularly from constable to major, where upgrading is required. A more attractive proposition should be made to members of the Police Force, because how can one be expected to support a family and to educate a family at the salaries that I have outlined?

The second appeal I want to make to the hon. the Minister, is to close the gap between salaries paid to White policemen and Coloured and Indian policemen. A Coloured or an Indian major receives R6 699 a year or R558 a month. A Bantu major receives R5 315 per annum or R443 a month while a White major receives R7 170 per annum or R635 a month. At the constable level a Coloured or Indian constable receives R1 405 per annum or R117 a month, a Bantu constable receives R1 009 per annum or R84 a month, while a White constable receives R2310 or R155 a month. They have the same responsibilities and they perform the same duties. I therefore think that the time has come to revise this gap in the salaries paid to these people. The situation must either be reviewed by the Public Service Commission or else the Police Force must be divorced from the Public Service Commission as are the S.A. Railways and Harbours and the Post Office. Whilst one welcomes the allowances made in regard to uniforms and qualifications of policemen, their salaries are still far too low. This matter requires urgent attention from the hon. the Minister and the Cabinet so that it can be put right as soon as possible.

While I still have a minute or two, I want to refer to the raids that took place at Claremont last Friday night when 160 people were arrested. I think the hon. the Minister should respond to me in this regard, because I am certainly going to add a measure of criticism. The people who were arrested went innocently and in good faith to certain premises where they enjoyed evening recreation. Through no fault of their own they were arrested and locked up for the entire night. Even if it appeared prima facie that these people had offended against the provisions of the Group Areas Act, was it really necessary to actually lock these young men and women up for the entire night merely because they could not pay the R10 admission of guilt? Surely a little discretion could have been exercised by the person in charge of the police who made the arrests? He could have warned them to appear in court and he could have taken their names and addresses if necessary, but it does not help good relations—in the light of the fact that we are making good progress in certain directions— that action of this nature should be taken. We know that, under provocation in certain instances, police may be provoked perhaps to act a little less rationally than normal, but I cannot see how these people who were out on an evening of enjoyment, could have provoked the police in such a way that they were locked up for that particular night. There is a strong feeling about this and I would urge the hon. the Minister to give his attention to the matter and to make a statement in the House about it.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Hillbrow …

Order! Before the hon. member delivers his speech, I just want to bring to the notice of hon. members that in terms of Standing Order No. 123 hon. members are not permitted to read their speeches. I shall be more strict about this in future. The hon. member may proceed.

Mr. Chairman, I shall try to abide by your ruling. The hon. member for Hillbrow must excuse me if I do not try to react to his speech, because the hon. member repeated a large portion of the speech by the hon. member for East London North. I do want to say that for the first time since I have been in the House, I have heard a brief word of thanks to the S.A. Police expressed by the PFP. I could hardly believe my ears when I heard that, and I do want to warn the hon. member for Hillbrow that mama Helen might still have a word with him about that. We on this side of the House have become used to the fact that all we have had from the hon. member for Houghton is condemnation, criticism and sowing of suspicion against the S.A. Police. We normally get nothing else from her.

In the short time available to me, I want to refer briefly to two matters—one of which affects my constituency in particular and, perhaps the country in general. Hon. members are perhaps not aware that my constituency borders on two international borders: i.e. those of Moçambique in the East, and of Swaziland. These days, we in that part of the country—that is to say, in South-Eastern Transvaal and Northern Natal—are very concerned about the increase in stock thefts. I must add that stock thefts take place not from Swaziland—with which we have a very good relationship—but in particular from Moçambique. I regard it as my duty to appeal to the hon. the Minister to see to it that the police take special measures to stabilize the position in order that our people in that important part of the country may have peace of mind. There are many cattle farmers in that part, and it is unfortunately the position that once the cattle are on the other side of the fence, there is no way in which the farmer or the policeman can fetch the cattle back.

I should like to say that I am very grateful to the hon. the Minister—and to the police and the detective branch in particular—for having gone out of their way in the past to assist our people in this connection.

We are also aware that that part of the country in particular—and this came to the notice of the public after the Bordergate incident in my constituency—can become a regular infiltration route for would-be terrorists. It is essential that special measures be adopted in this connection as well.

Another matter which worries me, is the noticeable increase in the thefts of fire-arms which we have experienced in the country in recent times. I have obtained the statistics in this connection, and I should like briefly to bring them to the notice of the House. In 1975, 2 918 fire-arms were stolen. At the time, 2 479 of those stolen fire-arms were recovered. In 1976, 3 144 fire-arms were stolen, of which only 1 745 were recovered. But in 1977, thefts of fire-arms increased to 3 900, of which only 1 773 were recovered. I want to appeal to the public to be more careful with their fire-arms. The police and the Government are going out of their way to ensure that only people who have a need for fire-arms, qualify to obtain them. However, if these people do not display the necessary care to prevent their fire-arms from falling into the wrong hands, all the preventive measures which the Government and the police take to ensure that the fire-arms do not fall into the wrong hands, are useless. It is perhaps time for us to consider stronger action against those who, through negligence, allow their fire-arms to get lost. Those weapons will inexitably land up in the wrong hands, and especially in view of the fact that in these times we could be faced with terrorism— including internal terrorism—there is a very real danger that those weapons could get into the hands of those undesirable elements as well.

I want to conclude by associating myself with the hon. members who have already participated in the debate by thanking the police, and also the hon. the Minister, for the excellent work they are doing. I make it my business, in my constituency, to chat with the ordinary policeman too, the constable, and to ask his opinion, and I want to give the hon. the Minister the assurance that our entire Police Force—from the highest to the most junior rank—have absolute confidence in and respect for him—not because the hon. the Minister is their boss, but because they know that he is also their friend.

Mr. Chairman, at the beginning of his speech, the hon. member for Barberton referred to the modicum of sympathy that emanated from the ranks of the PFP. That removed some of the bitter taste from my mouth. This is my first opportunity to participate in a debate in connection with police matters. I read the debates for the years 1975, 1976 and 1977 in Hansard, and I was struck and shocked at the scandalous way in which the image of the S.A. Police has been undermined and made suspect by the hon. member for Houghton and her colleagues—I deliberately drag them in, too, because they seldom repudiate her. There are many examples of that in the debates of the past. They are forever casting suspicion on our police. The venomous way in which the hon. member for Houghton referred a few days ago to Mr. Prins, the magistrate, and his decision is a matter which should undoubtedly have been rejected by her hon. colleagues in that party a long time ago. They are therefore making themselves just as guilty of that action against the S.A. Police. I just want to add that while our sons have to die on the border of South West Africa and in Southern Angola in the struggle against terrorism, against those people who endanger the safety of the State, we can no longer afford the luxury of hon. members here in the House criticizing the efforts and the struggle of our S.A. Police against terrorism and against the people who threaten the security of the State.

I should like to refer to an appeal which Brig. Zietsman, chief of the Security Police, recently made to all South Africans to assist in the tracing of people who may enter the country as terrorists, and to be on the lookout for them. He has also requested that we be on the lookout for the many young people— so-called refugees—who cross the borders of our country to undergo training as terrorists abroad, and then infiltrate into the country again. This is an appeal which deserves our full and wholehearted support. The struggle against terrorism and against people who threaten the security of the State, is not only the struggle of the Security Police or the S.A. Police, but also that of every member of our community. In particular, it is also the task and the struggle of the farming communities—especially those who live in areas on the borders of our country. It is, as the hon. member for Barberton has said, a very long border which has to be guarded by our Security Police. Our borders with Swaziland, Moçambique, Rhodesia, Botswana. Bophuthatswana, Lesotho and other neighbouring States, stretch for thousands of kilometres. Those borders are intensively patrolled by the Security Police. There are approximately 45 border posts which are manned by our Security Police and where they have to perform their task. It is necessary, however, that our people should become motivated to render assistance to our Security Police in this connection as well. I think it is also necessary for our farming communities to take note of this. It is not that one wishes to raise the alarm unnecessarily, but when one reads recent newspaper reports, one is struck by the seriousness of this matter. I have a clipping here from the Die Transvaler, which reads as follows—

Everything points to the likelihood that we are indeed heading for very difficult conditions and it is necessary that our entire country—all our farmers and rural people— should be mindful of this danger. While I am speaking of that, I also want to make mention of the fact that our Black labourers on the farms are playing a very important and positive role in this connection. Everywhere there is evidence of the alertness of these people in our service. While I am speaking of that, it is important that I should also say at this stage that Black and Brown members of the S.A. Security Police can play an exceptional and important role and render a valuable service in this connection. If we look at the roll of honour in the annual report of the Commissioner of the S.A. Police and we see the awards which have been made to non-White members of the Force, we can only praise and pay tribute to them. In the report, we see that the S.A. Police Star for Merit was awarded to 262 non-White members. The S.A. Police Medal for Faithful Service was awarded to 461 non-White members. The S.A. Police Medal for Combating Terrorism was awarded to 113 non-White members. That is something of which we should take due note.

In view of the fact that I come from a constituency which borders on Bophuthatswana, where we have a common border, in that constituency, of more than 782 km with Bophuthatswana, I think it is also necessary that we should take note with thanks and appreciation of the very positive statement which President Lucas Mangope recently made in connection with terrorism, when he said that he would not allow his territory to be used as a base for terrorism against South Africa. This is a very positive and wise decision which came from that country. I believe that from our side there will be a request at a high level that Bophuthatswana should not permit accommodation for or protection of refugees in the country.

I want to conclude by saying that I am personally not aware of any monuments erected for the S.A. Police. I think it is necessary that there should indeed be impressive monuments to them. I do believe that the S.A. Police do not ask for monuments. Their monuments are the restfulness, peace and security of which they assure our country.

Mr. Chairman, we wish to pay tribute to the Police Force for the work they have done during the past year. We wish to thank them for what they have done for people of all colours in South Africa. Policemen of all colours are included in our thanks. Secondly, we wish to associate ourselves with the good wishes that have been extended to Genl. Prinsloo on his retirement, and we also wish Genl. Geldenhuys well on his appointment. We will assist him in his work wherever possible.

All Government departments have their own black sheep. Of course, one gets black sheep in the police as well. The hon. the Minister, I think, must be seen to deal with black sheep—should there by any in his department—even more stringently than any other hon. Minister in the Government. I think this is particularly the case if there are any black sheep in the Security Police. Should that be the case, the hon. the Minister must be seen taking action against such black sheep. The Security Police must be even more carefully supervised than the other members of the Police Force because of the nature of the work they have to do.

With reference to the Biko affair I only have a short comment to make. We made our point of view clear during the censure debate. We stand by that view. The Biko affair did South Africa incalculable harm, not only within the country, but also overseas. The hon. the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the hon. the Minister of Information and their staffs are able to testify to the harm that that incident caused the image of South Africa. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that if there are people in the Department of Police who happen to be in any way responsible for what occurred in the Biko case, the hon. the Minister must be seen to take effective action against them. Knowing this hon. Minister the way I do, I am quite sure that he will do so.

Having said that, allow me to refer briefly to the role of the police in the maintenance of law and order, besides the combating of crime. Particularly these days, it seems to me that the police are playing a role of greater importance than almost any other Government department. The maintenance of law and order by the police is one aspect to which I want to refer now. I do not think that under the present circumstances, with the police playing a tremendous role in two spheres as it were, the Department of Police should continue to fall under the Public Service Commission. I do not think it is right that the police should be treated in the same way as other Government departments falling under the Public Service Commission. The Department of Police is hardly a Civil Service department, particularly at a stage like the present one. They do not keep office hours. They work extra long hours and they are exposed to enormous risks and dangers.

That brings me to the question of danger pay. We think that as the police are exposed to exceptional risks at times like this, consideration must be given to a danger allowance being paid to members of the Police Force. They do not only serve on the borders, but, in my opinion, they are in fact entitled to receiving danger pay for the work they do in times of unrest in the townships. They also deal with urban terrorism, not only in the townships but also where explosives have been planted in urban areas. They are in fact playing a triple role, and not merely a dual role. I therefore think that the hon. the Minister should give serious consideration, first of all, to taking the Department of Police away from under the Public Service Commission, and secondly, to the payment of special danger allowances to policemen who serve in times such as these.

We all welcome the fact that the police are going to be given uniform subsidies. That is definitely something to be welcomed. However, on the subject of uniforms, allow me to say to the hon. the Minister that I think the time has come, particularly since we have repealed urban unrest and troubles in the townships, for a distinction to be made between the camouflaged uniform worn by the S.A. Police and the one worn by Army units who are often called upon to assist in the combating of unrest. I do not think it is right that members of the public should not be capable of distinguishing between members of the S.A. Police Force and members of the S.A. Defence Force. I think that a clear distinction should be drawn, and perhaps in the case of policeman, names should also be exhibited on the uniforms of those clearing up unrest in the townships.

Talking about clearing up, I want to refer to the clean-up operations that were carried out recently in Hillbrow and Sea Point. According to all reports, they seem to have been a great success, and I want to ask the hon. the Minister to extend these particular activities to other urban areas in South Africa where there are similar situations. Besides dealing with other urban areas, White areas for example, on behalf of the people of the Peninsula, in particular, I want to ask the hon. the Minister today to declare war on crime in the Coloured townships. The people who live in the Coloured townships live in fear of the weekends, of rape, robbery and assault. There do not seem to be anything like adequate numbers of police reservists in the Coloured townships, and I think it is high time the Government gave attention to the establishment of police reservists amongst the Coloured people so that they themselves can assume far greater responsibility for the maintenance of law and order. In this respect I think that the CRC can stop talking as much politics as it does and get on with the job of administering essential services, including the prevention of crime in its own areas by its own people.

In regard to the southern Peninsula there is a constituency matter I should like to refer to the hon. the Minister. We want the same sort of raid to be carried out on the Coloured townships of the southern Peninsula as has been carried out elsewhere. The townships of Retreat, Steenberg, Vrygrond and the squatter camp at Muizenberg are rife with crime. At the weekends there are scenes of the most appalling violence. They have been long neglected. The police in the area are very short-staffed. I therefore make a request to the hon. the Minister this afternoon to see if it is not possible to raid those townships and clear up the gangs that exist in them. When poorer townships are adjacent to townships that are better off, the crime spills over into those Coloured townships, and people in decent, high-class housing areas become victims of crime campaigns.

There are, however, also loafers in the townships. I am referring, in particular, to Coloured townships. There is so much talk in this House about the Coloured people, but it is high time that Coloured people assumed greater responsibility themselves and attempted to clear up crime amongst their own people. Something must be done to deal with thousands of Coloured loafers and unemployed people in the townships. I think they must be put into work gangs. I think they must be put to work on making pavements and clearing up bush and scrub in the townships. They must certainly be taken off the streets, and I think that this hon. Minister and his Police Force must play quite a role in cleaning up the crime in the townships till they can do so themselves. In the southern Peninsula crime also spreads into other areas. It spreads into the Muizenberg area. Loafers, theft and drunkenness are the order of the day and the evening, more particularly over the weekends.

I want to thank the hon. the Minister for having instituted a foot patrol—even if it is only one policeman—in Kalk Bay to look after the harbour area and the streets. There is a noticeable improvement in that area and I think that they must, where possible, also be instituted in other areas.

I want to make one last point, and that is in connection with shebeens. One of the big problems of the police in the townships is the combating of shebeens. I would suggest to the hon. the Minister that one of the reasons why the shebeens flourish is because bottle stores are allowed to sell wine of all descriptions in “kannetjies” or demijohns. Those demijohns are then emptied by the shebeen owners, the wine is put into bottles—other things very often being added to make the mixture even more potent—and sold at exhorbitant profits in the shebeens. I think that under his other Vote, which we discussed yesterday, the hon. the Minister should give attention to the possibility of preventing bottle stores from selling demijohns and “kannetjies” of wine.

Mr. Chairman, I can find much on which I can, and must, agree with the speech by the hon. member for Simonstown. There is one point in respect of which I can perhaps make a further observation. I am referring to his idea of the payment of an inconvenience or danger allowance to policemen. I think that is a praiseworthy idea. I do not think we should do anything which might demoralize our policemen in the performance of their very difficult task. I think we should go out of our way to ensure that they are constantly given strong moral support in this difficult task. I therefore think that this is an idea which the hon. the Minister will certainly look into.

Right at the outset the hon. member referred to the question of discipline and the conduct of policemen in certain situations. In respect of his reference to the hon. the Minister’s action in this connection, I just want to point out that, in my view, we should reconcile these two concepts. On the one hand, there must be justice and fairness—also within the Police Force—but on the other hand, the interests of South Africa must not be harmed.

We know, for instance, that the hon. member for Houghton would very much like to see that discipline should be applied to such an extent on our police that our entire security network collapses. We know this, and for that reason I request the hon. the Minister please not to accede to or even listen to the hon. member for Houghton when she advocates strict action against the police in respect of various cases, because we must maintain and promote the morale of our police at all times. We dare not give our police the impression that in a situation in which no rules apply, we want to control them with a grip of iron discipline while they have to handle cases and fight against people in circumstances where absolutely no rules or order of any kind is recognized. We dare not demoralize or discourage our police.

That brings me to the next point. I represent my voters, and if I were to rise in this House and talk about a Government department such as the police in the vein in which the hon. member for Houghton does, I should immediately get a motion of no confidence. That is how simple it is. We must therefore assume that the hon. member for Houghton also represents her voters and that she expresses the views of her voters when she participates in the discussions here. If that is so, I want to request the hon. the Minister to withdraw police protection—I know this sounds absurd—from Houghton. [Interjections.] The hon. members for Yeoville and Hillbrow have gone out of their way to protect the interests of their voters, and they have not requested the hon. the Minister to handle political dissidents, political campaigners and terrorists with kid gloves and at the same time to take stem action against criminals. They said there should be a cleanup. Subsequently they came back and expressed thanks. I am serious in my request, for the reason that political criminals—people who destroy property and lives—have the same motives as an ordinary criminal. In the year 1978, the dividing-line between these people’s motives and actions has vanished. The hon. member is the champion of criminals, and for that reason we say that before the police apprehend one of the protégés of the hon. member for Houghton in her residential area while they are paying her a visit, we should rather request the hon. the Minister to withdraw police protection from Houghton. I should like to hear what her voters think of such a request. [Interjections.]

I generally want to congratulate the hon. the Minister and our Police Force, the supreme command, the officers as well as the men, on the fact that in recent years they have, with an iron hand, handled the internal onslaught in such an excellent way. If only 10% of the planning had succeeded, we might not have been sitting in Parliament today. The hon. member for Houghton knows that. Consequently we cannot in any way condone her criticism, because we know that she wants to destroy the existing order. There is no objection, and I am therefore continuing. [Interjections.]

It is clear to me that because the onslaught of urban terrorism has been withstood so successfully, we must expect that because of our successes, the opponents, whoever they might be—yellow, pink or red, the ANC, the PAC, Saso, the Black Consciousness Movement, the whole lot—will become more desperate. That is something which we should expect. Because they have been unsuccessful, we can expect that they will seek out our soft spots. That is in accordance with their technique and actions of the past. Since this is the case, we must be mindful of that and we must ask whether our public is giving the police sufficient support in this connection. The hon. the Minister once said the public also had a specific task. How do we reconcile these matters? My point of view is that we can draw many people from the public to make the task of the police much lighter. I want to refer them to a very important regulation which was promulgated on 31 March 1978 in terms of the Civil Defence Act.

In that, there is an indication of what persons are not qualified to undertake civil defence. By implication, the regulation also states who are indeed qualified to undertake civil defence. It amounts to this, that certain categories of persons such as members of the reserve of officers, the Citizen Force reserve and the commando reserve with less than five years’ service in the mentioned reserves, do not qualify to undertake civil defence because the Defence Force has a prior claim to their services. The opposite is also true, i.e. that people who have served in the reserves for more than five years, are indeed available for protection services. In my view, those people are not only available for civil defence, but also to supplement our essential police reserves—and especially the B group, which does local patrol work. In this way, a surprising number of people have been made available by the S.A. Defence Force. I have calculated that, just in respect of the group of men between the ages of 35 and 49, approximately 175 000 have been made available. If we halve that figure and leave out the “sick, lame and lazy”, there are still 80 000, of whom more than half will already have done their military service and will therefore have military experience. Such people can very conveniently be incorporated into our police reservist service. We require 60 000 people— men and women—for our civil defence. As I have indicated there are already 175 000 men available. In other words, of the 350 000, to double the figure by including women, our civil defence requires 60 000 people. Then hon. members will realize how many men can become available for the police reservist service and especially for the A and B groups, with the emphasis on the B group, which performs local duty.

If there are hon. members who have doubts about their own position, I must assume that they have also been made available inter alia for civil defence duties. I would advise the hon. member for Houghton to join the police reservists one night. They man police stations as though they have had years of experience. They are mainly and upright and perform their task with dedication. They man radio stations and they handle collisions. Some times they even handle political matters which cause problems. If the hon. member for Houghton does not agree with me that the police should be withdrawn from Houghton, she ought to make an appeal to her people in Houghton to come forward and strengthen our police in that very important way.

There is also another way in which the private sector can offer assistance to our Police Force. In this connection I should like to refer the hon. the Minister to the provision contained in section 334 of the Criminal Procedure Act, which makes provision for the appointment of peace officers. I think it should be possible, especially in respect of our universities, to appoint peace officers in this connection. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is my heartfelt wish, while I am participating in this debate, to pay tribute to the S.A. Police. South Africa can be proud of its Police Force. If one looks at the members of the Police Force present in this House today and if one walks down the street, one can only speak with gratitude and appreciation about what these men are doing for South Africa. We are living in a world in which the internal and external threats to South Africa are continuously increasing. If one looks at the crime rate throughout the world, one sees that crime is increasing. Undoubtedly South Africa’s crime rate will also rise in future. For that reason we need a prepared Police Force in South Africa. It is very easy to criticize these people, but when one has the smallest problem, it is very easy to pick up the telephone and ask for the help of the S.A. Police. Thousands of man-hours are spent protecting our security and our future in South Africa. Crimes will be committed in South Africa in future which the S.A. Police cannot solve. We should, however, remember that this is a world-wide phenomenon that crime appears in a more sophisticated guise. Crime is becoming more sophisticated and sometimes the best police force in the world cannot solve certain crimes. This is a fact we have to face and which we should not use to discredit the Police Force or to criticize them unnecessarily.

The hon. member for Hillbrow talked about the so-called bobby on the beat. I agree with him that the more policemen there are on the streets, the less crime there will be. We can ask ourselves today whether the men who are working permanently in the Police Force can perform all these tasks. Can they solve all these problems?

Is it not the task of the public, your task and mine, Mr. Chairman, to offer our services to the S.A. Police as well? Is it not our task to come forward and say: We are prepared to help the S.A. Police for the protection of our future and South Africa’s future?

If one looks at the S.A. Reserve Police Force, the police reservists, one is grateful, because when one analyses the figures, one sees that important people have already come forward and that dignitaries have already joined that force. The hon. member for Simonstown referred to Coloured police reservists. I want to agree with him that the figures—and we shall look at the figures in a moment—can be improved. The time has come, however, for everyone of us to come forward to assist the S.A. Police. Let us have a look at the figures. On 31 December 1977 the number of active reservists was as follows—

Tribute can be paid to this department, because they go to a great deal of trouble to recruit reservists and to encourage people to join the S.A. Reservist Police Force. Every effort is being made to recruit more and more candidates for this great task that lies ahead. It is a good thing too for us to look at these figures and to place them on record since they concern the number of new members that have been recruited—

One always finds resignations and this is as a result of people who are no longer interested or who are no longer prepared to serve because of circumstances, as the hon. member for Bloemfontein West mentioned when he referred to civil defence. The details with regard to resignations are as follows—

These are encouraging figures and it is, in fact, something on which one can be proud, but they are nevertheless figures that can be improved.

What is expected of an active reservist? Is such a member obliged to do police work every day? Is he obliged to spend a few hours every day, when he comes home from work, amongst members of the S.A. Police? There is a tendency among members of the public to be afraid to join the reservists because they think that they will have to be on duty every day and that they will not be able to spend any time at home. An active reservist is expected to do duty for only four hours a month. Where possible these people are provided with the most sophisticated weapons at the disposal of the S.A. Police. Uniforms are issued to them, medical services are provided and these people are really protected. Therefore I say that it is not expecting too much of reservists when they only have to be on duty for four hours a month, especially not if they love South Africa. The hon. member for East London North also referred to reservists, and I agree to a great extent with what he said. His complaint—if I understood him correctly—was that certain reservists complain that they are only being used in charge offices. That hon. member should have a look at what categories the reservist force is divided into. It is important and it should be emphasized in future. Group C reservists are in particular are of cardinal importance to South Africa’s economy. I quote the following from an official document—

It is stated further on—

It is stated specifically “gedurende tye van nood.” Now I come to the C group, which I consider to be of great importance. I quote—

However, the following is very important—

I want to compliment the hon. the Minister on the step he has taken here. South Africa is part of a sick world, but I believe that if we, as ordinary citizens and John Citizen, assist the S.A. Police, we have a future, and that we then will indeed be given the opportunity to fulfil our calling here at the southernmost point of Africa. We have conducted a very serious debate here this afternoon and many interesting points of criticism were made, sometimes not constructive criticism, sometimes criticism which, in my opinion, should not have been expressed in this House. It is, however, typical of certain people who act absolutely irresponsibly here, people who do not realize how delicate South Africa’s future is.

I should like to, however, to conclude in a lighter vein by congratulating Gen. Geldenhuys on his appointment as Commissioner. I followed this man’s career carefully in several studies and I want to state frankly in this House that he is, in my opinion, one of the best policemen in the world. I am not saying this to flatter him; I mean it.

Certain hon. members in this House are very enthusiastic about bowls. A few years ago, in fact, we requested the hon. the Minister of Police to present us with a floating trophy. This award is known as the Jimmy Kruger Floating Trophy. This trophy is meant to be the prize when we as members of Parliament compete with the bowls team of the Police. This match is an annual institution, and I think it is necessary to say here in Parliament that our team won this trophy this year. To Gen. Geldenhuys I want to say, therefore, that his police cannot really play bowls, but that that this was the only floating trophy that we have won. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that the hon. member for Overvaal could not get in his final words of praise about the Parliamentary Bowls Team! I agree with a lot of what he had to say this afternoon, but he will forgive me if I do not follow him. In common with other speakers I should like to welcome Gen. Geldenhuys as the new Commissioner of Police. We in these benches wish him well, but I should like to add that we shall miss the familiar face of Gen. Prinsloo. We trust that his retirement will be a happy, long and peaceful one.

I wish to deal with two matters which are of a parochial nature, but I am sure that these matters apply to many other constituencies as well as to my own. In the first instance I want to discuss the problem of young people—it is not always just teenagers; sometimes these people are over the teen age and in their early twenties—who make a practice of gatecrashing parties or gatherings, usually of other youngsters, in suburban South Africa. To fortify my statement that this is not merely something which occurs in my own constituency, I should like to refer to last night’s Argus in which a report appears which tells us of a party-crasher who was shot dead at a party at Henley-on-Klip on Saturday night.

According to the article the Police report says that a group of young people arrived uninvited at a party at the home of a Mr. Peter Wood. This resulted in one of these young men being shot and killed. I do not want to sound merciless, but quite frankly one wonders just how far the home-owner is compelled to go with this type of hooliganism that has become prevalent in our society.

I have a very real problem in the suburban areas of my constituency, i.e. the bulk of Durban North, Glenashley, where I live, La Lucia and Umhlanga Rocks. The hon. the Minister is aware of the problems which I have and he, together with the Durban North police, have rendered me invaluable assistance. I am grateful to the hon. the Minister for what he has done because, at his instigation, I have publicly urged people to come forward and report any threats of hooliganism on the part of these youngsters who have nothing better to do with their time. However, I feel it must once again be brought to the notice of the public that the police can only act upon information they receive. The police action is only as good as we the public make it. Police action is dictated by the information we feed the Police Force.

A young man whom I have not yet met, but whose journalistic prowess I admire, wrote a full-page report in the Natal Mercury on 19 April 1978 headed, “The teen gangs who rule by terror”. The young man’s name is Bob Kalinowski and in the report he outlined a number of the problems that we encounter in the areas that I have spoken of. I should like to refer to a few of the incidents mentioned in the report. In April 1975, four young men were attacked by a group of knife-wielding teenagers in the car park of the Glenwood Old Boys’ Club in Durban North. Three were stabbed, two seriously, and one later suffered a relapse. In October 1975, 10 youths invaded an 18th birthday party in Addison Drive. I should like the House to listen to what happened in this instance because I know the parents involved in this. When the owner said that the party had ended, one of these young hooligans said: “Madam, the party is just beginning”. I confirm wholeheartedly what is said in this report because I know that it is fact. The report goes on to say that before the youths left, guests had been beaten, one was knocked unconscious and the furniture was ruined and muddied by this gang of young thugs. The report also refers to an incident in 1976 when about 20 youths associated with the Red Hill Boys and the Cardboard Crew surrounded a home in Longwoods Drive and apparently wanted to attack a handful of schoolboys inside. Knives, sticks, batons and copper bars were produced by these youngsters. Here is another interesting incident to which the report refers. Mr. Chuck Farber, son of the US Consul General in Durban, Mr. James Farber—who is known to many of us in this party—was confronted by an unknown number of youths as he left the Northlands Old Boys’ Club in Durban North in his father’s consular vehicle. In evading the youths who followed in cars and on motor bikes, dents were made on the car, the aerial was ripped off and a rock was smashed through the rear window. Although no one was injured, damage of R100 was done to the vehicle. This is the sort of thing we have in what I would refer to as a middle-class to upper middle-class suburban area. This is a tragic situation we have in many of our city suburbs, where fear of reprisals all too often prevents people from coming forward with complaints. I am confident that both the hon. the Minister and the S.A. Police are as anxious as we all must be to see the end of this type of “thuggery”. I think it is right and proper that during this Vote a call should go out to all South Africans to play their part in putting a stop to it once and for all and to report every instance to their nearest police station.

It is not for me to prescribe to the courts, but I sincerely hope and trust that the punishment will be severe enough to discourage this sort of thing. In cases where the accused is clearly proved to be guilty of having caused bodily injury, the punishment should more than adequately meet the crime.

I want to refer to this newspaper report again. A Mr. Peter Gentles, 19 years of age, was knifed in the chest and the wound pierced his lung, while a Mr. Colin Cross, also 19 years old, was stabbed in the back. A companion was cut on his arm. The assailants were sentenced to five cuts each with a light cane for inflicting this sort of injury. I am not criticizing the courts, but I am asking that the police be assisted in every possible way to bring these young thugs to justice and to book in order to stamp out this type of thing. The courts can assist tremendously in this regard by imposing severe sentences …

Order! The hon. member cannot discuss that now.

Thank you, Sir. I thought you might call me to order.

I want to associate myself now with what the hon. member for Hillbrow had to say about the “Bobby on the Beat”. They are very much needed, particularly in our suburban shopping areas. I believe a start must be made in the shopping areas. I do not believe we can expect to have White patrolmen marching up and down on the beat everywhere. We do not have enough men in our Police Force to do that. However, we can certainly hope to have Bantu, Indian and Coloured policemen in uniform patrolling our shopping areas, where they can be seen, because it is in the suburban shopping areas where problems are becoming more and more apparent each day, problems such as petty criminals and confidence tricksters going into the one-man shop and perpetiating all sorts of crimes. I received a 16-page letter from a shop owner in Umhlanga Rocks who operates a branch of his business in Glenashley. This poor fellow constantly runs between Glenashley and Umhlanga Rocks trying to deal with people who attempt all sorts of ruses. An old trick is to order something while holding a fistful of R10 notes, thereafter claiming to have paid for the article, the confidence trick being the handful of notes to prove the trickster’s bona fides. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Umhlanga touched on a few pertinent matters. It is, however, not the job of the police, but of the parents to discipline their children. As far as that is concerned, we should appeal to the parents. It is true that there have to be many bobbies on the beat in Hillbrow. It is, however, doubtful whether that community produces the quota of policemen that it should produce. I mention these two ideas for consideration.

At this late stage I want to tell the hon. the Minister that he ought to feel very happy about the way in which this debate was conducted, because apart from the discordant note from the hon. member for Hillbrow, nothing but praise, encouragement and positive thoughts were heard in this House. I want to compliment the hon. the Minister and the police on that.

The hon. member for Simonstown said that there were black sheep in the Security Police as well and urged the hon. the Minister to take action. We should be careful not to act unnecessarily, but it is clear that we should act where necessary. We should not, however, look for black sheep where the Press points out black sheep to us. In the course of my speech I want to indicate that the Press in particular make black sheep of the police where such black sheep are not necessarily and clearly there. To prove this, I shall first of all quote what was said in the Citizen, the only independent English language newspaper in South Africa. An advocate said the following—

This was in consequence of the Biko affair. Now I want to pause for a few minutes to discuss the Biko affair. When a reporter reports a case like the Biko affair, he should be aware of the fact that the subversives in the country are instructed to commit suicide if that will further their case. In other words, when a patriotic reporter reports such a hearing, he is going to be very careful. In the case of Biko he should have been extremely careful, because during that trial a pamphlet was handed in which had, according to evidence, been drafted by Biko, as he himself admitted. I want to read out a part of that pamphlet to hon. members. It is written there—

My question is whether a reporter, when he hears this in the courts, should not realize that he is on dangerous ground here, where everything he writes can be used for political gain, and that he is playing into the hands of the terrorists and subversives? They, in fact, want that irresponsible reporting to take place. They rely on it. There whole action is aimed at that. However, what became clear from the newspaper reports? What are the accusations the world used against us?

The first statement that was made, was that “the police smashed up Biko”. The words used were “smashed up”. The second statement was that the police were not subject to rules and regulations, that they did exactly as they pleased. But what are the facts? In the first place, as regards the “smashed up”, I want to read out the following from the record of the inquest. The advocate for the Biko family suggested the following to the witness—

This is no evidence whatsoever. It is merely a statement made by the advocate. I shall read out what the advocate said further, and hon. members will remember that this suggestion was noised abroad. It was not evidence. I want to suggest that the reporters acted irresponsibly. I shall still come to that. At one stage the advocate said to the Biko family—

Then the warder said—

Do hon. members know what the advocate for the Biko family said then? He said—

Mr. Chairman, you will remember that this advocate, with what he initially “alleged”, made a statement which was publicized all over the world. But this reply was not sufficiently publicized. It was suppressed. I read further from what the doctors said in this connection. The one doctor asked the advocate for the Biko family whether they were suggesting that he was “smashed up”. “Yes,” said the advocate. The doctor asked: “Can I have your definition of ‘smashed up’?” The advocate’s reply was: “No, I can only infer that what happened to Mr. Biko amounted to a vicious assault.” To this the doctor replied: “There was no evidence of a vicious assault.”

My question is why this story was publicized all over the world while there was no grounds for it. The next aspect which was dished up to the world as the truth, was the accusation that the police did not regard themselves as bound by rules and regulations at all. What do we find in the evidence? According to the evidence, the policeman— and we must please remember that he replies in Afrikaans—said the following: “Wat ek bedoel, is dat daar niks by statuut voorgeskryf is hoe ek ’n beskuldigde se veiligheid moet verseker nie.”

Now I ask the question: Why was the reporting not done properly? Maybe the reporters in the court could not understand Afrikaans. If this is the case, I believe that it is an indictment. We cannot allow a reporter who does not understand Afrikaans to discredit our courts, our police and our judicial system. This is something we cannot allow. If this conclusion of mine is incorrect, I must, of necessity, come to the conclusion that what happened amounts to deliberate deception. The hon. member for Houghton said in this House that she does not accept the decision of the magistrate in that case. In an earlier debate she also said, with regard to the police—

That is ostensibly what the police are doing. All the police are doing, in my opinion, is to maintain law and order as prescribed by Parliament. However, what do we get now? Now the police are being criticized. As far as I am concerned, this is a tactic which our enemies use to discredit the two pillars on which peace and order in South Africa are built, i.e. the Police Force and the courts. This is something we can no longer allow.

Therefore I want to suggest, for consideration, that all court reporters should be accredited by either the police or the Department of Justice as being South African citizens and completely bilingual. Because they do not understand Afrikaans, they cannot be allowed to present a distorted image and a misrepresentation of our judicial system to the world. I am in all earnest about this. In my opinion it is only right that a court reporter should report properly. The court is impartial. The court is the model of justice. Therefore we cannot allow it to be said afterwards that justice is not done in our courts. When this happens, the accusations from abroad that we are an illegal Government will not be lacking. In my opinion we should take urgent action with regard to this matter. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, when one has the privilege of sitting in this hon. House and seeing how legislation is introduced here, how matters are discussed, how details are sifted and how it takes weeks before legislation is passed, one involuntarily thinks of those who have to implement all this legislation. In 90% of the cases it is the men of the S.A. Police Force. They are people who do not have time for discussion, who have to act at once when offences or crimes are committed. Of course, the matter does not end there either. After that there are the court proceedings which sometimes last for days, even weeks or months; all as a result of the action which the Police Force had to take immediately when it was necessary.

Unfortunately, it is a fact that very few people understand and appreciate the duty of the police properly. Policemen also have to swear an oath, just like every member of the House of Assembly. The oath which a policeman swears, however, has a broader scope. Firstly, he swears an oath in which he undertakes to serve his country loyally at all places within the borders of South Africa. This sounds very fine, but it means that they are subject to transfer. This means that, unlike a person employed by a private enterprise, the policeman dare not buy property. He is at once at an economic disadvantage. Due to the fact that a great deal of housing is provided for them, the position is quite often such that when he retires on pension, the policeman quite often does not have a roof over his head. He therefore ends with an economic disadvantage. The policeman sacrifices his life out of love and to serve.

In all modesty I want to point out that there is no other job or profession which makes such high demands on its employees. The policeman begins his career in tension and he ends it in tension, because in actual fact a policeman is never off duty. Any time when it is necessary, he can be called up to do his duty. He can even be called back for duty from leave if circumstances demand.

A great deal of tribute was paid to other Government departments that work overtime. Overtime is part of the policeman’s life. I am actually afraid to say this, because it may be thought that I am exaggerating. However, the fact is that when someone has served in the S.A. Police for 44 years and one asks him how many hours overtime he worked, one is insulting him. It would be much more appropriate to ask him how many years overtime he worked. It must be remembered that he did not receive any remuneration for it. He works that overtime because he feels it is his duty to his country and his people.

He may not do any other work or have any other profession. In fact, his wife may not even earn a salary unless the necessary permission is granted. He is expected to be conversant with all legal provisions at all times. In addition he must take note of hundreds of standing orders which are of importance to him and the police.

After dark, it often happens that he cannot remain at home as a proud father, as many other people do, in order to supervise his family and his children. It is his duty to look after the interests of the general public.

In actual fact, his wile has to take over the duties involved in a charge office in miniature. One often wonders whether a monument to the policeman’s wife could not be considered. Few people will know what they have to endure while their husbands are looking after the public.

What is the purpose of the S.A. Police Force? Firstly, it is to maintain law and order, to protect life and property and to prevent crime or investigate it when it does occur. When one analyses these points, one will find that most of them are of incalculable value. How can one calculate how much property and how many lives are protected by the police? In actual fact, only one of these six points is calculable and this is the investigation of crime. The fact that the remaining five points are incalculable, may be the reason why the police officer’s services are not appreciated and recognized according to their true value.

Of course, sometimes there are members of the force who are found unfit to do their duty. In a case like this, a board of inquiry is appointed in order to go into such a person’s case. If he is found unfit to continue his duties, he is discharged and returned to the public in order to disappear into the masses there.

Then I should like to say a few words about the use of fire-arms by the S.A. Police. I should like to approach it from this angle. What is a serious crime? A serious crime is defined very clearly for us in the first schedule of the Criminal Procedure Act of 1977. I shall just mention a few aspects. High treason, sedition, murder, culpible homicide, rape, indecent assault, sodomy, bestiality and fourteen others are mentioned. There are 20 altogether. No civilized country can allow these serious crimes to be committed without combating them. It is very interesting to ask which is the most important. Is it more important for the policeman to know when he may use his fire-arm, or is it more important for prospective criminals to know what can hit them if they commit the crimes mentioned in the first appendix of the Act. In the first place, one wants to tell the policeman that he must be careful because once he has pulled the trigger, the consequences are irrevocable. However, we dare not put up with these crimes and it is his duty to bring the people who commit these crimes to court.

What does the Act say about this? Section 49(2) tells the policeman that, when any of the serious crimes are committed, it is his duty to bring the person concerned to court, and if there is no other way of arresting such a person or preventing his escape, such a person may be killed. However, there are people who are under the impression that the police are trigger-happy, and this is often alleged. However, it is not true. In the past three years the S.A. Police have arrested no fewer than 1¼ million serious criminals. During this period of three years it was necessary to make use of fire-arms in 1 340 cases. If we analyse the matter, we see that 99% or 99 out of every 100 of these criminals were properly apprehended, locked up and brought to court without it being necessary to use fire-arms. Only once out of every 100 times was it necessary to use a fire-arm. Of the 1 340 cases where fire-arms were used, 1 288 of the criminals were hardened criminals. The other 52 cases are not specified. It is of the greatest importance for me that we should appreciate the duties of these people and accord them their proper value.

Mr. Chairman, there has been a considerable amount of debate, in which the last two speakers also participated—the hon. member for Pretoria West having spoken just before the hon. member for Springs—a debate in which the Biko incident has been to the fore. I do not want to add much more to the debate on the Biko incident. There is only one single question I should like to put to the hon. the Minister. Is it not important that he should tell the House and the country what the lessons are that we have learnt from these events? I say this because the tragedy that faces South Africa at the present moment is that because of the international situation we are in and because of all other circumstances of this kind, almost any action by any person in a senior position today—whether it be a member of the police or a person in an executive position in Government or elsewhere—may well result in some other kind of action against us somewhere else, whether it be in the United Nations, the Security Council or whatever.

Therefore every person who is connected with the Government in a position of responsibility now has to assess a situation in the light of the consequences of his action, not only in the local sphere but also in the international sphere.

That brings me to what I consider to be the major point with which I should like to deal, viz. the role of the police in the kind of society I can see South Africa entering at present. In this connection there is a submission I should like to make. In the first place it is often said that South Africa is entering a period of change. That there is going to be change is certain. All that is open to question is what the nature of those changes will be and what the pace of change will be. Anyone who has analysed history will know that history shows that periods of change are periods of great instability in the communities in which those changes take place. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether South Africa is heading for a period of peaceful change or whether it is heading for a period in which there will be instability while the changes take place. In such a period of instability the crucial issue is whether during that period there will be law and order or whether we will find ourselves in a position of chaos. That is the tragedy of the problem we have to face because there can be no doubt that periods of change are periods of great instability in every single community. I believe that during the period that lies ahead South Africans, whether they be White, Black or Brown, would prefer, rather than experience instability, to have someone to whom they can turn for protection. There are two organizations that will protect them. The one is the Defence Force whose job it is to protect South Africans against aggression, against movements from outside, against terrorism of a particular nature; and the other is the police who will determine whether law and order will be maintained and whether people will be able to live in peace and harmony. If I may put it that way, it is the young men in blue who are going to be the dividing line between peace and security on the one hand and chaos and disorder on the other. I think there can be no question about it that, in so far as the individual is concerned, he wants to be on the right side of that blue line, the side of peace and security. The overwhelming number of South Africans of all colours and races want to be on that side of the blue line where there is peace and security and not on the side where there is chaos and disorder. As I have tried to indicate to the hon. the Minister on previous occasions, one of the essential ingredients that is needed is respect for the force which is to provide the protection. One of the major priorities the hon. the Minister has is to project his Police Force as a protector that is respected. That, to my mind, is the image the police should have, and it is a priority.

There is another matter I wish to refer to and that is the question of national priorities in regard to this issue. People have spoken at length about the fact that the salaries of the police are not adequate and that the conditions of service are not suitable. I agree with all that, and the hon. the Minister knows it. A choice has to be made in respect of the priorities of South Africa. Is the White South African going to continue to ask for fancy operahouses, palatial provincial and municipal buildings and pretty mountain passes, or does he want a larger, better trained and better paid Police Force? We have to make a choice and, certainly, the people in my constituency and, I believe, the majority of people in South Africa would rather settle for the choice of being protected than having these frills in the days that lie ahead. A reassessment of national priorities is needed if we are going to make the necessary money available for the things hon. members have asked for today. More money is needed if the Police Force is to be enlarged. More money is needed if higher salaries are to be paid. More money is needed to keep the present members of the Police Force from leaving and to attract more recruits. More money is needed to build more local police stations. If we do not get that money, if we do not re-assess national priorities, what has been said here today about improving conditions of service is idle talk. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he will not in the Cabinet see to it that national priorities are re-assessed so that protection becomes the first priority in order to ensure that there will be stability during the period of change.

I do not only speak of Whites and I do not only speak of the protection of my voters. Let me talk about Soweto as an example. Today we unfortunately have a Mafia-type rule in the Black townships. The people cannot safely get onto transport, they cannot safely carry their wages, they cannot safely walk in the streets and they cannot be safe in their houses at night because there are protection gangs, there are gangs which put the Chicago of the old days to shame. How can we not have it as a national priority, if we want respect for law and order, that policemen be put in there? In the same way in which I thanked the hon. the Minister for the raids which have helped in my constituency, I ask for the same protection to protect the Black man against Mafia rule in the townships. This is an urgent priority because it is necessary that the Black man should respect the policeman as a protector. He must not look on the policeman as a man who comes there in order to arrest him. He must turn to the policeman in order to get help when he is assaulted, when he is robbed, when his family is murdered or when extortion is practised on him. I ask the hon. the Minister and I ask the Cabinet to see that the national priorities are reassessed because when we look at what is happening in South Africa it is clear that individuals in the first place want physical protection, then they want economic well-being and then they want cultural advancement. If one does not give physical protection to the ordinary man, then economic advancement and cultural advancement are almost irrelevant. He wants to survive and he wants to be happy in his home. I have said that I am glad that my voters have benefited from the fact that crime has been cleared up in my constituency, but the residents of Soweto are entitled to the same things the residents of Yeoville are entitled to.

When I speak about Yeoville I want to thank the hon. the Minister for putting a mobile police station in my area, because I have asked for a police station. However, my problem at the moment is that a mobile police station is too mobile and that people do not know where to find it. If it could stay in one place and if it could be announced where it is, people could go to it and it would therefore serve a greater purpose. Therefore, I want to ask the hon. the Minister to please give me a mobile police station which my voters can find. I keep getting phone calls from people who are asking: Where is the mobile police station? I want to go there. The Minister must please help me because I have to answer those queries.

I want to say one last word because I think it is important to say it. When we asked for assistance in regard to Hillbrow, Yeoville and the central city area, we got it. I want to thank the Commissioner of Police, Gen. Prinsloo, for what he has done. If Gen. Geldenhuys has set an example by the promptness with which he has acted, there is a great future for him and for all of us. [Time expired. ]

Mr. Chairman, we have come to the end of the debate and I shall first try to reply to everyone who has asked me any questions or has made any statements. Before I come to that, however, I should just like to refer to the roll of honour in the annual report of the S.A. Police. I should like to express my thanks and appreciation to every branch of the S.A. Police for their loyalty to South Africa and for the faithful service they render to the public of our country. A word of sincere thanks to the wives of all the policemen of South Africa would not be out of place, because they have to put up with the inconvenience of many transfers with their families in their everyday life. It is extremely unpleasant to be transferred every few years for some reason or other, either because of promotion or because the position occupied by her husband is required elsewhere. Sometimes the man’s abilities are of such a nature that he would be better suited to another area. The various reasons why policemen are transferred are almost legion. One can only admire the wives who patiently accept such transfers time and again. Such a woman has to break up her home, take her children to a new school and begin a new social life there. In this connection, one must also think of the long hours which these men work. Often they are not home at night and the wives have to be patient and go on bringing up and looking after the children. I want to express my appreciation to them today for their sacrifice. The roll of honour mentions that seven White and eight non-White members lost their lives while they were on duty during the past year.

I should like to assure their families and their next of kin of our sincere sympathy with them in their loss. I can assure their families that the public has very great appreciation for their sacrifice. The roll of honour, further mentions that the S.A. Police Star for Merit was awarded to 554 White and 262 non-White members of the Force. The S.A. Police Medal for Combating Terrorism was awarded to 671 Whites and 113 non-Whites, while 219 Whites and 28 non-Whites received bars. For outstanding devotion to duty, courage and perseverance in the performance of their duties, two White and two non-White members were specially commended. I also had the honour of awarding the Medal for Courage and Faithfulness to patrol dog Alfa, which he earned under the following circumstances (page six of the annual report)—

I want to express the hope that Alfa got a special piece of meat for that courageous act, for he will probably not be able to leave his medal to his offspring.

I now come to the arguments of the hon. member for Houghton—I almost want to say the hon. virago of Houghton. Mr. Chairman, this is a good word. According to the Concise Oxford Dictionary, it means a “turbulent woman”.

Order! The hon. the Minister may not use that word.

Then I withdraw it, Sir. May I then say “the hon. fair lady of Houghton”?

No. Do not say that; rather be honest.

Then I shall simply call her “the hon. fair lady of Houghton”.

I prefer the first one.

The hon. member wanted to know whether I had ordered an investigation into the Biko case. I shall come to that later. The hon. member referred again to section 6 of the Terrorism Act, and in this connection I want to tell her that the Terrorism Act is applicable in South West Africa as well, just as it is in South Africa. The same Act is enforced there, the same detentions are made there and the same police have to catch the people there. Section 10 of the Act, which is used for interning people, is used for the same purpose here in South Africa. The legislation in South West Africa is implemented by South African officials in exactly the same way as it is implemented here. There is no difference whatsoever. The only difference is that the hon. member for Houghton does not like me; she prefers the hon. judge in South West Africa. Apart from that, there is no difference.

Why did he have to introduce special measures?

The hon. member also referred to Mr. Donald Woods and his T-shirt incident. When the hon. member asked the question about Mr. Woods, I gave her to understand quite clearly that I was not making any accusation against Mr. Donald Woods. Mr. Donald Woods is making allegations against himself through his ridiculous behaviour. The hon. member for Houghton asked me a question. I have now received a statement on the subject and the hon. member may come and have a look at it. It is a statement signed by Mr. Hettema. He said that we could mention his name. When I was replying to the hon. member’s question at the time, I did not want to mention his name, but Mr. Hettema has now said that he did say this.

It is rubbish.

What do you mean by “It is rubbish”? Why does the hon. member not want to believe Mr. Hettema? She does not even know the gentleman; he may be a very honourable gentleman.

I know all about him.

The hon. member does not even know all about Mr. Woods.

*We know all about Mr. Woods, however. Why would Mr. Hettema make such an allegation? Can the hon. member for Houghton give me a single reason why Mr. Woods went to Mr. Hettema with this inquiry?

I do not believe he did.

Why did he do it?

He did not do it.

Mr. Hettema has made a statement to this effect.

He also said that Mr. Woods …

For what reason would Mr. Hettema have made such a statement out of the blue?

[Inaudible.]

Order! The hon. member for Houghton cannot comment on everything which is said by the hon. the Minister.

The hon. member for Houghton believes just what she likes to believe. She does not believe a word of what is said by other people. According to her, anyone who opposes her ideas is dishonourable, has lied and is slandering her friends. The fact that Mr. Woods is using every chance he gets to slander South Africa abroad is of no importance to her; she has no fault to find with that. Mr. Woods can attack his country as much as he likes; he remains her hero and her friend.

You declared war on him!

I did not declare war on him at all.

You did the next best thing!

I challenge the hon. member for Houghton to show where I made any reference to Mr. Woods. The only time I have referred to Mr. Woods is when I have been asked questions about him.

But you banned him!

Yes, I banned him, but I banned a lot of other people too. That does not at all mean that I declared war on him or that I ran him down.

Of course it does!

No, it does not.

*Let me tell the hon. member something else. I want to refer to a lie which Mr. Woods is now spreading abroad. It is a story which he tells in his book as well, which he told the South African Press umpteen times, and which they made a great fuss about. Mr. Woods alleges that he came to my house where he furnished confidential information to me and that he was then taken to court. I want to say in this House, with all the responsibility at my disposal, that Mr. Woods forced himself upon me during a weekend. He kept pleading with me to see him. When I told him that I was too busy to see him, he asked whether he could not come to see me on a Saturday. My son had made a special trip from Stellenbosch for this weekend and was waiting for me to go and play tennis. I told Mr. Woods that he could come at 2 o’clock, but that he must be sure to leave at about ten past two. In the end, he only left after four. My wife wanted to sweep him out with a broom. He spent the whole time telling me what a wonderful man Mr. Steve Biko was and afterwards he gossipped about the Security Police. When he wanted to complain to me about the Security Police, I told him that he should submit a written complaint to me so that I could investigate it. Thereupon he said that I need not investigate the matter because he had already discussed it with Gen. Van den Bergh and that Gen. van den Bergh had promised him that he would discuss the matter with Gen. Geldenhuys. I immediately realized that the matter was in good hands and that I need not give any further attention to it.

Let me now tell the hon. member for Houghton that to this very day, I have not told Gen. Geldenhuys—of course, he knows it now—what Mr. Woods told me about the Security Police in my house that day.

I have never given Gen. Geldenhuys any detailed information about what Mr. Woods told me that day, because I regarded the conversation as confidential. However, Mr. Woods is now going about saying that he landed in prison after that conversation. Surely he knows that he spoke to Gen. Geldenhuys and to Gen. Van den Bergh himself and that certain normal inquiries resulted from those conversations. Surely these people have no other choice than to investigate serious accusations made against the Security Police. We cannot simply kick someone out of his job, as the hon. member for Houghton wants us to do. The matter first had to be investigated, after all. However, when the police went to Mr. Woods and asked him to furnish the facts by way of a statement so that the people concerned could be charged if it proved to be true, Mr. Woods did not want to supply the evidence. The matter was taken from the hands of the Security Police and entrusted to the ordinary police. The ordinary summons to come and give evidence before a magistrate and reply to certain questions was then issued. I knew nothing of that summons. A policeman just came to my house at one stage and showed me a letter from the Biko file addressed to “Dear Oom Jimmie”. All he told me on that occasion was that legal proceedings had been instituted against the man. I did not know what the proceedings were about. The policeman was making inquiries about the letter because it was addressed to “Dear Oom Jimmie”. I told the police officer that I did not know what the case was about and that I never interfered with court cases. I told him that if they had anything against Mr. Woods, they should proceed with the case. It had nothing to do with me. To this very day I have not disclosed the contents of that so-called confidential conversation to the Security Police or to the ordinary police. However, the hon. member and the leftist Press keep suggesting that the man got six months’ imprisonment because of that conversation in my house, where he sat wasting my time while my family was waiting for me.

I just want to conclude my little story. Round about 16h30 he told me that he had to go and he asked whether he might use my telephone. I then asked him why he wanted to use my telephone. He told me that he had no car. I was surprised and asked him how he had got to my house. He replied that he had come by taxi. There were two cars at my house, but I did not have a driver available that day. I then offered to take him back to his hotel personally and asked him where it was. He said that he was staying at the Union Hotel, the same hotel where the staff are so badly paid. [Interjections.] So I first had to tell my wife that I had to take Mr. Woods to his hotel, which I then did. The thanks I got for that is this disgraceful and slanderous story which he, the newspapers and the hon. member for Houghton then broadcast. Every time I have extended my hand in friendship to these people and tried to help and listen to them, this kind of behaviour has been my reward. I realized long ago that leftists really cannot help spreading their ideologies. Everything one does for them they regard as a sign of weakness. This is a fact.

The hon. member for Houghton said that too many murders were taking place, that the murderer of Dr. Rick Turner had not been found, etc. However, the circumstances are such that it is very difficult to solve that murder. On a previous occasion she asked me for further particulars about the Fatima Meer case. Fatima Meer was assaulted by a leftist, a Marxist. The hon. member knows that. She attacked me last year about Fatima Meer who had allegedly been assaulted.

What does that prove?

What does it prove? It proves that the hon. member was looking for someone else, found out it was a Marxist and then did not say a word about it any more. She keeps on making statements such as “There is a steady increase in the number of deaths in detention.” That is a disgraceful remark. There is no steady increase in the number of deaths in detention. Where does the hon. member get her figures from?

From your figures.

The hon. member calculates the number of deaths in detention for every five-year period, and if she finds that there is an increase in the number, she says: “There is a steady increase in the deaths in detention.” Surely she should calculate it on a yearly basis. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Houghton has made a speech in which she asked the hon. the Minister all these questions. I think it is high time now that she listened to the hon. the Minister’s answers. The hon. the Minister may proceed.

Mr. Chairman, I shall come back later to the hon. member’s allegations about deaths in detention. I first want to reply to the more positive arguments advanced in the debate.

The hon. member for Waterkloof made a very positive speech in which he expressed his appreciation to the S.A. Police Force. He pointed out that the Southern African Students’ Movement, a so-called Black Consciousness movement, is in fact a Black Power movement and that the so-called Black Consciousness movements have become completely radicalized and have all become Black Power movements. The hon. member chose an opportune moment for bringing this to our attention.

The hon. member for East London North expressed his regret about the fact that I had already decided to give free uniforms to the S.A. Police. He had wanted to ask for this. I am sorry to have disappointed him. The hon. member came very near to being able to say: “Just look at that! I asked the hon. the Minister for this, and immediately afterwards, that same afternoon, he promised free uniforms to the police.”

The hon. member also spoke of poor salaries and referred to the Railway Police. As Minister of Police I want to say that as far as I am concerned, we cannot pay a policeman enough. I should like to pay him much more than he is getting today, because I know how difficult the work is which he has to do. But one must keep a sense of perspective. In the first place, the Railways generate their own capital. They have a source of income which the S.A. Police does not have. The S.A. Police is directly dependent on the taxpayers’ money. It is not a business enterprise such as the Railways, the Post Office and other organizations. The Railways can pay high salaries because they have a source of income other than taxation. I am merely stating the argument; I am not saying that I support the argument. I agree with the hon. member. I also think they ought to get the same salaries. An argument against this, however, is the fact that the Railway Police Force is very small and that the possibilities of promotion in the Railway Police are therefore far smaller than in the S.A. Police. The higher a man rises in the S.A. Police, the bigger his salary. The Railway Police Force has a much smaller number of officers’ posts to which the men can aspire, and this must be compensated for to some extent by way of higher salaries, because, as I say, there are not enough opportunities for promotion.

That is not a good argument.

It may not be a good argument, but I am just giving the counterargument. The S.A. Police falls under the Public Service Commission. The hon. member spoke of small salaries, of the small salaries of the whole Public Service. The S.A. Police received certain allowances which other people in the Public Service do not receive. For example, they all receive R30 a month by way of a privation allowance, so that they are actually a little better off than the rest of the Public Service. Nevertheless, they still fall under the Public Service. We cannot do anything about this; they are part of this service. As far as housing is concerned, they qualify for the 100% Public Service loans. In other words, a policeman can buy a house with a 100% Public Service loan. However, if I were a policeman I would never buy a house, because there is also a 100% State housing scheme which we have implemented to the extent of approximately 50% to 60%. The hon. member for Umhlanga knows that there is a beautiful block of flats near the magistrate’s office.

In that block of flats, a policeman can rent a three-bedroomed flat for R12 to R15 a month. These are the benefits enjoyed by members of the Force. The office worker has to buy his own clothes. Through the good offices of the Treasury, and bearing in mind the present financial position, the S.A. Police has now also succeeded in arranging for the policemen to get free uniforms as from next year. We try to the best of our ability—I am always aware of this and I am always working on it—to obtain extra benefits for the policemen, because I know that they fall under the Public Service Commission and cannot get a salary increase as such. I am always trying to obtain more and more benefits for them within the framework of what we are allowed to do. I could tell the hon. member about quite a number of other benefits enjoyed by the S.A. Police. In this way, for example, they have one of the best medical schemes in the Service. I could mention other benefits as well, but I shall stop at that. I do not want to create the impression that the policemen are so very well off. I prefer to admit quite frankly that in my opinion, they are not very well off at all.

The hon. member also mentioned police reservists who want to resign. I want to say quite honestly that I have the greatest appreciation for the police reservists. I do not think there are so many of them who want to resign. Of course, we cannot give them the basic training which the full-time policeman undergoes. The hon. member will understand that this cannot be done. The full-time policeman spends six months at the training college. Therefore it is not possible to provide the same basic training to a police reservist, someone who devotes only two hours a week to police work. In spite of this, and in the light of the training which we do give police reservists, these reservists have already rendered services of inestimable value to South Africa. They are all people from the private sector, people who make a tremendous sacrifice to offer their services free of charge—they do receive their uniforms—and to devote all their spare time to police work. This is a service which they render to the community, and they enjoy it. People who are police reservists tell me that they want to keep it up. According to them, it is a pleasant task which they perform, it is something different to them, a welcome change from the ordinary office routine. It is something which they find stimulating.

I want to point out that at this stage we should like to concentrate on the B and C reservists. One of the hon. members on the Government side gave a splendid exposition of the duties and functions of the C reservist. This is the reservist who works in a factory, for example. Such a person can join as a C reservist to guard the factory premises. His employer therefore has a fully qualified policeman on his premises, someone who has all the rights of a policeman. When a factory owner has a number of these men, people who know how to co-operate with the police, he is able to ensure that his factory premises are protected, especially in times of unrest, in times when incendiary bombs are thrown, when fire-arms are used, etc. In times such as these, the factory owner then has a small police force which he has built up for himself, a police force consisting of his own employees, of people who have been trained, who know where the nearest police station is, people who are able to move about and who know exactly how to contact the police. This is the one class of reservist which we want to encourage people to join.

The other class of reservist which we also want to encourage people to join is the one consisting of people who tell us that they would like to look after their own houses and those of their friends in their own residential areas. This is something which we welcome. In Yeoville, as well as in other places, people are beginning to go about in groups, almost like gangs. They call themselves vigilantes. Surely this is not necessary. I have nothing against the vigilantes. I have no quarrel with them. All I want of them is that if they want to play at being policemen, they should become real policemen. I therefore invite them to become police reservists. I invite them to join the B reservists.

When they do so, they and all their friends can still patrol their own residential areas. They can still play at being the bobby on the beat and walk up and down the streets and round up those who are causing trouble. They can move about freely in their own neighbourhood where they know the people. When one of them gets tired of walking around in one small area, it is easy for him to call at the house of a friend or colleague and to enjoy a cup of coffee there in his police uniform. He can stay there for a while and then return to his patrol work. It is the B reservist who does this kind of work. If people would take the trouble of just going to the nearest police station and joining as B or C reservists, they could patrol either their own neighbourhoods or their own places of work. This is something we would appreciate. I should very much like to further this. When difficult times come, I should like to be able to call up the B reservists to patrol the various urban areas, while the full-time policemen could be used for other services.

The hon. member for Brakpan discussed a very interesting matter. This hon. member said he could not understand why a monument had not yet been put up to the unknown policeman, the unknown policeman who has laid down his life in the course of his duties. I can inform the hon. member that we have a fund for this, to which a great deal of money has already been donated. I believe we have already decided on the place where we want to have such a monument put up. At the moment we are considering whether it should be a large stone structure, or something which can be more practical and functional, such as a hospital for policemen. We shall decide about that aspect in due course. A start will be made on the project sooner or later.

The hon. member for Krugersdorp spoke about police training. He was particularly concerned about encouragement for research. I do not know what exactly the hon. member meant by encouragement. If he meant financial encouragement, I can only point out to him that all the policemen work without financial encouragement. They work because they love South Africa and because they love the Police Force. Police work is something which gets into one’s blood. It is pleasant work. All I can say is that we shall welcome any research into matters affecting the Force. Nevertheless, we want it to be a labour of love. If there is to be financial encouragement other than moral encouragement—moral encouragement I am prepared to give at any time, free of charge—we shall also consider it, because there has to be research.

The hon. member for Hillbrow thanked me for the police action in Hillbrow. I wonder what the hon. member for Houghton says about this. [Interjections.] I hope the hon. member for Houghton agrees with the hon. member for Hillbrow.

I hope you caught a lot of real criminals.

In the past, and even today, her remarks about the S.A. Police have been such that one can only regret them. The way she inveighs against the S.A. Police is deplorable. I only hope she is not going to quarrel with her hon. colleague of Hillbrow because he thanked the S.A. Police for the work they have done in his constituency. [Interjections.] He also referred to crimes which were not being solved. This happens all over the world. One cannot solve all the crimes; one solves as many as one possibly can. The circumstances of every crime are different.

He spoke of the low salary payable to the policeman. I agree with him. I think the salary is too small. However, I cannot get round the Public Service Commission. I think, nevertheless, that I have already satisfied the hon. member by indicating that I am continually investigating the possibility of improving their benefits.

Once Helen has conditioned him, he will make no more pleas on behalf of the police.

The hon. member also referred to the 160 people who had been arrested. A certain Mr. Katz opened a discotheque and allowed people to commit unlawful acts on his premises. I blame Mr. Katz. He should have known what the legal position was and told the people what was allowed and what was not allowed. The people would then have known what they were letting themselves in for. Anyone could then have said: I am dancing with this Coloured person, but I accept full responsibility for it.

I blame Mr. Katz for it all. I understand that he has paid some of the fines, but I cannot understand why he did not also pay the fines of the people to whom the hon. member referred.

It was too late, because the people had been locked up.

Of course the people had been locked up. If they could not pay, they had to be locked up. Where was Mr. Katz then? When he received the money in the form of an entrance fee of R2 he was there, but when he had landed the people in trouble, Mr. Katz was gone and they found themselves in prison. This is the tragedy of the whole matter.

He stood bail for some of them.

My hon. colleague says that he did stand bail for some of them. I do not know what cases the hon. member for Hillbrow is referring to, because it seems that Mr. Katz did intervene and bail them out.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether it would not have been possible to warn the people to appear in court on, say, Monday, instead of locking them up all night?

It sometimes happens that when people are merely warned, they do not listen. The story of Mr. Katz has been going on for a long time and the hon. member seems to know about it. I cannot interfere with the discretion of the S.A. Police; they must decide for themselves what the circumstances are. They must decide whether the time has come for them to lock people up for a few hours. Once bail has been granted to a man, it is up to him. He then has to pay the R5 or the R10. We cannot expect the police to act in an arbitrary way. They have their regulations, after all, and they must act in accordance with the regulations. They cannot simply do what they like just to please the hon. member for Hillbrow.

The hon. member for Barberton spoke of the stock-theft in his area. I am aware of the problems experienced in that area and I have already indicated to the hon. member that we shall do our best to protect those remote farms. He also said there was an increase in the theft of fire-arms. Of course, a person’s licence for a fire-arm can be cancelled if he or she is careless. We can prohibit someone from ever owning a fire-arm again. It happens quite often that someone drives about with his fire-arm in his car. He gets out of his car, goes into a shop and when he comes back the car is still there, but the fire-arm has disappeared. Before long, however, he applies for another fire-arm. We then ask him where his old fire-arm is and he tells us the story. Then we completely deprive him of his right to own a fire-arm because he has been guilty of gross carelessness. In cases where there has been gross carelessness in connection with fire-arms, the police will not hesitate to deprive a person of his licence. We are very strict in granting licences for fire-arms. One wants fire-arms to be owned by as few people as possible. I personally do not believe in owning a fire-arm. I have had a fire-arm for many years. I must have bought it 30 years ago and it is still lying in the bag in which I bought it.

The hon. member for Marico spoke about the image of the police among our people. I appreciate it, because it is true that the image of the police is being tarnished. We see it in the Press, for example. It does not matter what uniform a person wears when he arrests someone. It is alleged that it was a policeman who caught him or who did this or that, whereas one often finds out afterwards that it was not a member of the South African Police at all. If there is a photograph of a man in uniform, one can be sure that he will be called a policeman. In that way the image of the South African Police is being tarnished. The Press is merciless as far as the police is concerned. If a policeman touches a man, there is a photographer around to take an enormous photograph of the incident for his newspaper, for that is news. It is not stated what the thug, criminal or rebel did. All that is shown is how the man of authority seized the poor man and how forlornly the poor chap stands there handcuffed. That is the kind of thing which is being done. I really want to make an appeal to everybody, particularly to the party of the hon. member for Houghton. They must realize that they are destroying the authority of the South African Police and that is going to cost them dearly. They must assist in building the reputation of the Force just as much as we are trying to do so.

We only criticize abuses. You do not seem to realize that.

The hon. member for Simonstown also thanked the police. He referred to the Biko case. I shall come to that in a moment. He also asked that the police should be withdrawn from the authority of the Public Service Commission. It is not within my power to do so, however. The South African Police is a service organization, and like all service organizations, it falls under the Public Service Commission. We are doing our best under the circumstances, and the policemen understand that. There is one thing I want to ask of hon. members. They must not harp too insistently on something which would be wrong in principle, because I am not so sure that it would not be wrong in principle to withdraw the police from the control of the Public Service Commission. I know it is a very debatable matter, but once one begins with the service organizations, where does one end? When can one say that a department should fall under the Public Service Commission? This only upsets policemen. Later policemen might also get the idea that they should not be under the control of the Public Service Commission. I think that is wrong. One should be more careful. I must admit candidly that I cannot withdraw the police from the control of the Public Service Commission. It is easy to tell the Minister to withdraw them, but it is very difficult for a Minister to do so.

He also referred to privation allowances. I have already explained that they already receive privation allowance and that it has now been consolidated with their salaries. He also expressed the opinion that they should not wear camouflage uniforms.

Not the same as that of the Army.

Yes, you said it should not be the same as that of the Army. We have, of course, invested an enormous sum in camouflage uniforms. We find camouflage uniforms particularly suitable for open-air action by policemen, particularly in riot situations. We also have riot squads which only operate in camouflage uniforms. But that member of the Force wears a prominent arm-band to indicate that he belongs to the South African Police. He wears all the insignia of the South African Police, and no one who knows anything about uniforms can confuse a policeman in his uniform with a soldier in a soldier’s uniform.

The hon. member also asked me to declare war on crime in the Coloured community.

In the Coloured residential areas.

Yes, in the Coloured residential areas. I am quite prepared to do so. I want to tell the Coloureds, however, that they do not furnish enough recruits for the Police Force. Coloured people, among them members of the Coloured Persons Council, have in fact requested me to take steps in certain areas. My first question to them is then: How many of your people have you persuaded to join the Police Force? Then it is clear that it is a mere one or two out of a large Coloured area. It is expected that White policemen should do the work in their areas. I have set myself the ideal that the various population groups should police their own areas with their own policemen. Until we have realized that ideal, however, I am quite prepared to send in policemen to clean up Coloured areas. I have made a note of the areas which the hon. member mentioned.

He went further and said: “Loafers should be taken off the streets and put to work.” Once again this is not my task. I can arrest a loafer, but what should I do with him then? Then he loafs on our doorstep at the police station. He might go to gaol for a week. After being well-fed there for a week, he will merely carry on loafing outside the station. When should one catch him again? And what should one do with him when one has caught him? There is a correlation between my actions and the actions of other departments. There are many problems involved, for if I should establish labour camps where these people could be used productively, I shudder to think what the hon. member for Houghton and the people overseas would say about that.

You could not care about it.

They will distort everything again. There is one member who will start it. It is a fact that if one treads on someone’s foot, and that foot is healthy, he will merely pull it out from under one’s own foot. If he has a com, however, he will scream just as that hon. member is screaming now.

You could not care about anybody. You do just as you like.

The hon. member for Simonstown also spoke about shebeens in the townships. We are already working on that. At this stage we are not working on it in the Coloured areas yet, because we first have to deal with the tremendous task which we have in the Black areas.

Cans—demijohns—should not be sold.

That is a point which one could consider, of course. Does the hon. member want liquor to be sold in bottles only?

Yes, in bottles only.

That could perhaps be done. I shall look into the matter.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein West made a very interesting speech in connection with police reserves. I shall read the speech again, because it was a very complicated speech which one should not only listen to, but which one should read and study. I shall give it my full attention, because it seemed to me as if the hon. member made a very good proposal. The same applies to his proposal in connection with peace officers.

The hon. member for Overvaal also spoke about the reservists. He emphasized that the C group was the important group. Furthermore he told us that the Parliamentary Bowls Team had won the bowls game. I am glad the police did not win the game this year, for bowls is a recreational game and I am glad to see that the police did not have the time to practise.

The hon. member for Umhlanga talked about teenagers and gate-crashing, in other words, the White hooligans of Umhlanga.

That is correct.

He gave the answer himself in his speech, a speech which I found very good and interesting. If the people in that residential area will only take the trouble to telephone the nearest police station and tell them that a party is to be held at a certain home and ask the police to drop in there at about 10 o’clock in the evening to see if everything was still in order, I can give him the assurance that the police will go to that house for a cup of coffee and to see if the people are satisfied. In this way we shall be able to stamp out this phenomenon completely. The hon. member also spoke about the “bobby on the beat”. For that purpose we shall make use of B reservists and on an even larger scale than in the shops. We shall most probably utilize the ladies of the Police Force to undertake the floor-walking duties in the shopping areas of towns.

The hon. member for Pretoria West spoke about police training and housing and he also touched on significant aspects of the Biko case. He analysed aspects of the Biko case which should have been analysed long ago. Hon. members, particularly on the Opposition side, should read his speech to find the truth in the evidence given in the Biko case. He also expressed the opinion that all the reporters covering proceedings in the courts, should be bilingual, otherwise they do not understand half of the procedure which is being adopted. He is quite correct. I think the Press itself should take care of that aspect.

The hon. member for Springs made a very fine speech. He spoke about the use of firearms by the police. He indicated that no one can expect—and I know the hon. member for Houghton expects it—a policeman to go around without his fire-arm. I make so bold as to say that with the exception of a few members who, as in any service, sometimes commit an error of judgment and do something wrong, the number of cases in which fire-arms have been incorrectly used by members of the South African Police, is very low. If one considers the dangers such a member has to face and the work he has to do, it is clear that he cannot go unarmed. If he has to shoot—we have debated this question before—he has no choice and he has to shoot.

The hon. member also spoke about overtime. He put it well by saying that overtime was part of a policeman’s life. He could have added a few other things as well. He could have said that transfer was part of their lives too. Overtime, however, is definitely part of a policeman’s life, and fortunately we have men in the South African Police Force who do not watch the clock or even their salary cheques. They are satisfied just to do their work; they find satisfaction in their work and in the comradeship which the Police Force offers them.

The hon. member for Yeoville made a surprising speech. It simply did not seem possible for such a speech to come from the ranks of the PFP. [Interjections.] One cannot but underline every word which he said. One wonders, however, to what extent the hon. member for Houghton, the hon. member for Groote Schuur and the hon. member for Pinelands support him.

Every single word.

[Inaudible.]

Every single word?

*I am very glad that this can go on record, for we shall now be able to throw it back at those hon. members later. The hon. member for Yeoville said that the mobile police stations were too mobile. But this is an undertaking which is still in the experimental stage. A mobile unit cannot remain on a certain spot for one day only; it must remain there for at least a week and perhaps even a little longer. The mobile police station is already becoming a great success. It is cheap and it enables us to render a service where we would otherwise not have been able to render service. Our building programme is such that in view of the tremendous population explosion taking place in our cities, we simply cannot build enough police stations and man them. Therefore it seems as if these mobile police stations are going to render a very good service. The hon. member for Yeoville also said that a kind of a Mafia rules Soweto. When I said that here in the House, there was such an explosion that one’s ears could hardly take it.

That is nonsense!

It is true.

No.

Yes. It is true. I said that in several, debates last year. Those hon. members maintained then that it was the fault of the policemen. I also said that intimidation was occurring in those areas. When the question was put to me and I was asked why I had banned all those organizations, my reply was that I had done so because the whole community of Soweto was disintegrating. I had no choice; I had to do it.

†I would like to say a few more words about detention. Towards the end of February of 1977 the leftist Press, well aided by certain hon. members of the PFP, started an organized campaign against the Security Police, in particular about the so-called deaths in detention. They are still continuing with it. In a leading article the Rand Daily Mail pertinently asked me 13 questions about deaths in detention. I fully answered the 13 questions. I gave them a written answer. I also attended a full Press conference where I answered all the questions that came my way about deaths in detention. Each case was fully dealt with at that Press conference and I exposed myself to questions. Yet, what do we find in spite of that? The Press conference was so “prominent” that no-one really knew of it, or if they did, they did not take any notice of it because they simply were not interested in it. They were only interested in tarnishing the image and the name of South Africa with the so-called deaths in detention. [Interjections.] That is so. We gave the full facts and those facts were never even analysed. They were brushed aside. That is what was done with them. Those hon. members do not wish to take any notice of any explanation. They never take any notice of the results of an inquest. It was apparent here in the House on Friday. If an inquest finding is in favour of the police, it is wrong, and if against the police, it is right. It is as simple as that. I maintain that they did not take notice of the Press conference, because subsequently to that the S.A. Institute of Race Relations came forward with an untruth. It was released after the Press conference. I quote—

They are here referring to the Terrorism Act. This sort of reporting catches the imagination of the hateful anti-South African lobby overseas, and I shudder to think what they are going to do with the hon. member’s uncalled for, unsubstantiated and venomous statement that my appointment of the two jurists is “about 35 deaths too late”.

You should have done something about it.

That “35 deaths too late” is going to be interpreted as having occurred after the Biko incident.

Nonsense!

That is so. I was referring to the two jurists appointed after the Biko trial. Then the hon. member said that it came 35 deaths too late. There have been no deaths since then; none whatsoever.

There have been.

I challenge that hon. member to give me the names of people who have died in detention since then.

I shall give them.

All that hon. member does, is make sweeping statements. Of the 20 cases mentioned by the institute, one was a death in Transkei after it became independent. That person was therefore never detained in South Africa at all, certainly not detained by the Security Police.

Mention them!

What does the hon. member mean by saying that I should mention them? I shall mention them if the hon. member wants me to. T. Mosala was found dead on 29 November 1976 in the prison cells in Butterworth, Transkei. The Transkei became an independent homeland on 26 October 1976. This person was found dead on 29 November 1976, and yet it is listed as a death in detention under the Terrorism Act. [Interjections.] Let us take the case of William Tswane. His death is listed by the institute as one of the deaths in detention under the Terrorism Act. He was caught in Soweto on 26 July while handling a stolen vehicle and was shot dead while trying to escape. The inquest verdict was justifiable homicide, and yet this was given as an example of death in security detention. Whoever was responsible for this must know these facts, and I ask: Why was it included in the list?

Let us take another case, the case of Mbatha. He was a youth of 16 who was arrested on 16 September and was taken immediately to the Modderbee prison, a prison which is not in the hands of the Security Branch. He was questioned for the first time on 25 September, and as his name and other particulars were being taken, he complained of not feeling well and was immediately removed to the Far East Rand Hospital where he died the same day. The post-mortem report issued by the Chief State Pathologist said he died of natural causes which was described as extremely sympathetic system activity with auricular fibrillation of the heart. The hon. members can ask any doctor and he will tell them that this youngster obviously had a serious heart defect. There was not the slightest suggestion that he was ill-treated or assaulted, and I ask the hon. members: Why was his name in this list?

Let us take the case of Lawrence Ndzanga. He was detained on 18 November 1976 and was kept as an awaiting-trial prisoner from 12 December in the Fort in Johannesburg. He was charged on 28 December with having recruited persons to undergo military training abroad. He died in prison in Johannesburg on 8 January 1977. The post-mortem report refers to tuberculosis, pleurisy and also to a cardiac failure. Hon. members can again ask any doctor what it means and he will tell them that the man was seriously ill and could have died at any time. There is no suggestion that this man was at any time ill-treated or assaulted, and yet he is included in this list. Why is that so? I can proceed in this vein. Let me take another case. Another man was detained on 31 January 1977 and was taken to the Pietermaritzburg police station. When he was brought there he complained of a heart condition. He had pills with him, which he took. He died, I think, on 23 February 1977. Prof. Gordon, the Chief State Pathologist, conducted a post-mortem on 24 February 1977. His report stated that Mr. Malinga died of natural causes as a result of a diseased process of the heart of fairly long standing, complemented by the development of changes in his lungs. Pneumonia was the final cause of death. Prof. Gordon said further that a large number of these cases occur amongst Africans and that his death would not have been hastened by detention. Prof. Gordon concluded that, if anything, detention could have prolonged life, and yet this is listed as a death in detention under the Terrorism Act. [Interjections.]

When one hears about these so-called suicide cases in our prisons, one wonders how many suicides there are in prisons overseas. We have statistics in respect of at least one country.

*Recently there was a Justice debate in the National Assembly of France. Hon. members should listen to this. It is interesting because South Africa is given out to be the country with the highest number of suicides cases in prisons. These statistics were furnished in the French Parliament. During 1976 40 detainees committed suicide in French prisons. In 38 cases the prisoners hanged themselves and in the other two cases they incinerated themselves. How they did that, is not clear. In 29 cases the reasons for their suicides are still unknown. Only 13 of them had been sentenced and 27 of them were awaiting sentence.

In 1976 there were 286 cases of attempted suicides. 130 detainees hanged themselves, 49 swallowed toxic substances, 86 seriously injured themselves, 15 swallowed foreign objects and six jumped from high places. But now it is being alleged that it is only in South Africa that this happens.

†One wonders whether Amnesty International, who has been attacking us so viciously overseas, or even the Department of State of America will be so kind as to furnish the world with the figures and the reasons for their prison suicides. I am not blaming them for these prison suicides. I can understand that it can happen, but we would be interested to see the figures just to put the record straight. One asks this because after Biko died, he was honoured by ambassadors attending his funeral. I have nothing against that, but I must say that I did not notice any of them at the funeral of Clemens Kapuuo. This seems to me remarkable. However, be that as it may. I want to tell hon. members another thing that really makes one wonder. One wonders whether there was any official recognition at the funeral of Mr. Curtis Hoston, who was, after all, an American citizen. Perhaps the facts were not known. If they were not known, I should like to furnish them. I am obtaining them from American newspapers. I am not blaming or trying to run down America. I am reading from their own newspapers.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.