As Chairman of the Committee on Standing Rules and Orders I present the Second Report of the Committee [S.C. 9A—’78], The Report will be printed and distributed amongst hon. members.

*Unless notice of objection to the Report is given at the next sitting of the House, the Report will be considered as adopted. This Report deals with the establishment of Standing Committees and represents an important development in parliamentary procedure. This being the case, I just wanted to bring this pointedly to the notice of hon. members.

Mr. Speaker, I move without notice—

Agreed to.

Mr. Speaker, after the Transport Vote has been disposed of this afternoon, the National Education and Sport and Recreation Votes will be discussed. This discussion is expected to continue until late Thursday afternoon. On Friday, after the Questions have been disposed of, 4½ hours will be devoted to the discussion of the First and Second Reports of the Select Committee on Public Accounts. The intention is to adjourn the House when this discussion has been concluded.

†On Monday we shall deal with the Order Paper as printed.

*On Tuesday the Labour and Mines Votes will come up for discussion. This discussion will probably be continued on Wednesday. The Indian Affairs, Community Development and Tourism Votes will be discussed from Wednesday to Friday.

Mr. Chairman, yesterday afternoon the hon. member for Tygervallei spoke about the S.A. Agulhas. This is the new research ship. He expressed his appreciation for the fact that they had had an opportunity to inspect this ship when it was in Table Bay Harbour and that they had been able to see all the facilities which will make us better able to undertake the work which will be entrusted to the ship. However, an unfortunate event has taken place on the ship within the last few days and I should like to inform the hon. member and the Committee about it. The body of a boatswain of the ship, Mr. C. Williams, was found on board at 02h55 on Sunday, 16 April 1978, while the ship was off-loading supplies at Marion Island. The next of kin of Mr. Williams, i.e. his wife and three children, have already been informed. The body was still warm at that stage, and it is accepted that Mr. Williams probably died during the preceding hour. Because circumstances indicate that his death may have been due to unnatural causes, the matter will be further investigated by the South African Police.

The S.A. Agulhas is expected in Table Bay harbour in the course of tomorrow, i.e. on 20 April. I want to avail myself of this opportunity of conveying my sympathy and that of my department to the deceased’s wife, his three children and other members of his family.

I began discussing certain subjects here yesterday and I concluded with a discussion of the Weather Bureau. I should now like to say a few things about a subject raised by the hon. member for Kempton Park. I am referring to the wearing of safety belts. Hon. members will recall that on previous occasions during the discussion of this Vote, I spoke with some hesitation of the compulsory wearing of safety belts, for several reasons. In spite of that, I was subsequently convinced that the wearing of safety belts could save lives, and consequently I agreed to it. The necessary arrangements were made to make the wearing of safety belts compulsory as from 1 December last year. The hon. member for Kempton Park pointed out that although it is compulsory, some people wear it and others do not. I must agree with him that this is in fact the case. I must furthermore agree with him that if it is considered worthwhile making something compulsory by means of legislation, we must ensure that it is complied with. For this reason, I think that the public and the motorist must accept that when we have made a measure such as this one compulsory, we shall not leave it at that or refrain from taking the matter any further. According to statistics made available to me, safety belts are worn only by approximately 50% of the motorists who have safety belts in their cars. This is obviously not good enough, so we have to insist on greater support in this matter. For this reason I want to agree with the hon. member that we shall have to do something about this in the future. We must ask the public for their co-operation. When I was having discussions with the National Road Safety Council at the time, I asked them not to press this matter too hard. However, it has now been in operation for several months and we have seen results. The hon. member asked for a propaganda campaign to be launched with regard to the wearing of safety belts. We did this for years by way of advertisements, etc., before the wearing of safety belts was made compulsory. Since it was made compulsory, too, various forms of propaganda have been used, urging compliance with this measure and the wearing of safety belts. However, the results have been disappointing. For this reason I think, as the hon. member also indicated, that something more should now be done. I therefore envisage that a period will be fixed during which the motorist will be warned when he is asked to stop and it appears that he is not wearing his safety belt. Also, when he gets into his car and wants to drive off without the belt, and this is seen by a traffic policeman who happens to be nearby, he will tell him, “Sir, you have not put on your seat belt.” Something of this nature will be done during a fixed period. After that, however, we shall have to enforce the wearing of seat belts. When that time arrives, it means that people will be fined if they do not comply with this requirement. The fine will not be a large one. It will amount to R10 at most. However, I think it will be sufficient to convince people of the fact that seat belts have to be worn and that their use will be enforced. It is compulsory in many other comparable countries of the world and is enforced in those countries. This is the procedure we intend to follow in the future. We shall therefore warn people during a fixed period, and then we shall proceed to fine those who do not heed the warning. I think hon. members will agree with me that having gone so far as to place this measure on the Statute Book and to make it compulsory, we shall simply have to ensure that it is complied with.

The hon. member for Orange Grove, who introduced this debate, began by referring to road transportation legislation. This is legislation which was referred to a Select Committee and the hon. member was a member of the Select Committee. It now seems to me that he is already complaining about some of the recommendations with which he in fact agreed. What is more, he is complaining about them after the legislation has been in force for only 3½ months.

I wanted to ascertain what teething troubles were experienced.

I believe that one should really give legislation of this nature the opportunity to function for longer than 3½ months before starting to make improvements.

The hon. member referred in particular to the fees which are payable. I do not know for whom he was speaking, but an interesting article appeared in the Sunday Times of 26 February. The article was written by one Jack Webster, Executive Director, Professional Hauliers’ Association. He was therefore writing on behalf of the people who are affected by the legislation and more specifically by the tariffs which are applicable in terms of the legislation. He wrote—

He went on to discuss the various concessions, but I am not going to mention them all; there are too many of them—

He went on to explain that the R100 was valid for an indefinite period and that it actually held advantages for the carrier.

I did not complain about that.

The hon. member did not complain about this specific point; I am coming to the other one. All I want to prove by making this quotation is that the representative of the people, the hauliers, who are directly affected, has no objection to the fees which are applicable in terms of the new legislation.

As regards the objection made by the hon. member in respect of the temporary permit, I should like to inform the Committee that after having received various representations from the carriers, the National Transport Commission recommended that regulation 18 of the Road Transportation Regulations of 1977 be amended to provide for the payment of an amount of R1 in respect of a temporary permit valid for a period not exceeding 14 days. Such a permit is issued when temporary permits are required as an interim measure while an application for the replacement of a vehicle is being dealt with. I think this has to do with the aspect to which the hon. member was particularly objecting.

That is correct.

The prescribed application fee of R10 per application is not affected by this, and therefore remains unchanged. The hon. member mentioned a number of other matters and asked, among other things, why the Railways was objecting to all applications made to Road Transportation Boards. However, this is not so. The Railways is not objecting to all applications; it is only objecting to applications if it feels that those applications ought not to be granted. In fact, only applications which directly affect the Railways are sent to the Railways by the Road Transportation Boards. The hon. member also objected to the fact that we had not appointed anyone from the Cape Town municipality to the Cape Town Road Transportation Board. It is not laid down that a particular municipality should have a representative on such a board. But since the hon. member is concerned about the representation of the Cape Town city council, I want to point out to him that the Cape Town city council has a representative on the National Transport Commission, i.e. on the superior body. Mr. Van Zyl, a member of the Cape Town city council, is also a member of the National Transport Commission.

My point is that the core city should be represented.

Yes. The hon. member’s arguments were mainly concerned with the core city. When we put the new transport legislation into operation, we shall determine the core city. We do now know yet which one it is going to be, but let us accept that it will be Cape Town, since the hon. member feels that this is the core city which should have representation on the local Road Transportation Board.

The hon. member also referred to the increase in the tariffs, but he must remember that when applications come before Road Transportation Boards with regard to increased tariffs, all the merits of the case are considered and the increases are restricted to a minimum. If the increases have such an adverse effect on any part of our community, whether it be the Coloured or the Bantu community, that the granting of subsidies is justified, this is done so that they need not bear the total burden of the increases. The hon. member also complained that all the applications for bus transportation to the funeral of Steve Biko had not been granted. I have dealt with this matter before and I have indicated that local Road Transportation Boards are under no obligation, nor do they furnish any reasons for refusing a permit. I should like to assure the hon. member that in that case, too, the applications were considered properly and on merit. When such applications are being considered, the provision of alternative transport is also discussed. We did not receive any appeals from any of the applicants whose applications had not been granted in full. However, we did grant permits with regard to the attendance of the funeral of Steve Biko.

Mr. Chairman, could the hon. the Minister tell us if the packaging requirements by the Railways can be considered as a reason for part of the reasonable tariff charged by the Railways?

The hon. member and I had an argument last night about the fact that the tariffs of the Railways are regarded as reasonable.

There is another matter I have to explain to the hon. member for Orange Grove before I come to the arguments advanced by the hon. member for Amanzimtoti. The hon. member wanted to know last night when the system of exempted goods and exempted areas would come into operation. On 14 March 1978, talks were held between, inter alia, officials of the Department of Transport, members of the National Transport Commission, the S.A. Railways, the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut, the Association of Chambers of Commerce, the S.A. Federated Chamber of Industries, the Federation of Building Industries, the Motor Industry Federation, the Professional Hauliers’ Association of South Africa and the S.A. Furniture and Warehousemen’s Association, in connection with goods which ought to be exempted in terms of the provisions of the road transport legislation and also in connection with exempted areas to which the hon. member referred. As I say, the talks have taken place and the National Transport Commission will meet on the 28th of this month to discuss the proposals which resulted from these talks. The proposals will be published after this meeting.

The hon. member for Amanzimtoti concentrated on his own neighbourhood and his own constituency. The hon. member asked for details about the bridge across the Umkomaas River and the delay there has been in building it. I shall gladly furnish particulars in this connection to the Committee.

The preliminary drilling survey of the foundation conditions in the Umkomaas River Valley was received in January 1977 and shows that according to the site indicated by the approved, basic planning proposal, the foundations should be between 50 and 55 metres deep. Over and above the depth of rock formations, the drilling results also revealed that the underlying mud and silt are so badly compacted that it will not be able to carry the road fill for the bridge approaches. Further attempts were made to find a better foundation by means of seismic surveys, and overseas specialists in the compaction of silts were asked to express an opinion about the possible improvement of the condition by the application of dynamic compaction by means of a patent method from France. All these surveys merely widened the scope of the problem and did not solve it. However, the seismic surveys pointed to a possibility of shallower, suitable foundations upstream from the chosen site, and this possibility is presently being tested for confirmation by means of further drilling surveys. Because of the topography of the valley and slopes, the siting and detailed design of both the bridge and the road over a distance of approximately 5 km have had to be held in abeyance until finality has been reached about the most suitable foundation.

The complaint in Umkomaas is concerned with the large number of heavy vehicles which have to travel through the residential area every day. It is alleged that this is now taking place at a rate of up to one vehicle every 2½ minutes. Many people in Umkomaas seem to be under the impression, on the one hand, that the bridge project is not enjoying the priority it deserves and, on the other hand, that a lack of sufficient funds is delaying the commencement of construction. This is not the case at all. The planning is being done by a prominent firm of consulting engineers, a firm with wide experience and facilities in this field, and the department has the fullest confidence in the ability of this firm to complete the investigations and the design of the bridge in the shortest possible time. I also want to assure the hon. member that financial provision is not an impediment either. The delay is due exclusively to the circumstances I have described.

Negotiations are now under way with the provincial administration in an attempt to devise a temporary plan to make better provision for the traffic in that area. This, then, is the position with regard to the bridge across the Umkomaas River.

The hon. member also asked me how the department went about determining priorities. I really do not know whether I should take up the Committee’s time by explaining here all the factors according to which priorities are determined. I just want to mention a few of them in order of priority. From the nature of the case, the traffic volume on the existing road or roads is the major consideration in determining priorities. A second consideration is the ability of the existing roads to carry the present, expected traffic volume; thirdly, there is the cost of constructing the freeway; fourthly, the possibility of building a single-lane road, such as there is to the north and south of Bloemfontein, as the first phase of the eventual freeway; and fifthly, there is the topography of the area to be traversed by the existing road and the proposed freeway. The latter factor is closely connected with the ability of the existing road to carry the traffic. I could go on to mention other considerations as well. There are quite a number of other less important considerations which are kept in mind in determining priorities, but I think the ones I have mentioned will give the hon. member an idea of the way it is done.

The hon. member also asked a question in connection with the freeway on the south coast of Natal. I want to give him a few interesting facts in that connection. I think they will be of value to him. I gladly furnish the following information to him—

I want to point out the large amounts of money which we are spending in the hon. member’s area in Natal. I am fairly well informed about the circumstances because I have the privilege of going to Umdoni Park for a rest from time to time. For that reason, I use these roads fairly often and I have also benefited by that work.

The hon. member mentioned certain other matters. I do not think I can reply to everything, because so many questions were asked and so many matters were raised.

As far as the State Garage is concerned, he wants us to extend the subsidized car scheme. I have been told that this would not be cheaper than what we are doing at the moment and that it would most probably be more expensive. There is some doubt about this, but I do not think it would hold any advantages for us. In the past—I have a great deal of information about the State Garage— we concentrated on buying lighter cars, which are smaller, of course, and more economical. In recent years, our budget for the State Garage has been greatly curtailed and the amounts and means available to us have been rather limited. I do not want to furnish all the figures now. The fact is that we did get along fairly well.

The hon. member spoke of air traffic controllers. I just want to tell him that the Public Service Commission is now investigating the matter. There is an establishment of 117 members of staff, 97 of whom are in active service and 35 of whom are being trained. The Public Service Commission is examining the conditions of service of these people.

The hon. member for Welkom raised several matters here. He referred, among other things, to the shipping routes. I want to assure him that we are equally concerned about the routes being followed by the ships, especially by the big tankers around the southern tip of Africa. This matter has been referred to the National Marine Advisory Board, especially in the light of the collision between the Venpet and the Venoil. However, the trouble is that this is an international matter which has to be negotiated and accepted internationally. It is actually a very interesting subject. When ships sail round the southern tip of South Africa, they find themselves in very strong currents from time to time, currents flowing to the south and south-west along the east coast of South Africa and along the south coast as well. There is a tendency among the masters of these ships to sail with the current, to try to benefit from that current as far as possible, and when they have to sail against the current, they try to avoid the current if it is at all possible. For this reason there is a tendency among these people not to keep very closely to the directions which have been issued. However, the hon. member has our assurance that we are making a more careful study of the matter.

The hon. member also asked for a larger subsidy in connection with oil pollution. We give a 100% subsidy to local authorities in connection with oil pollution when we know where the oil pollution has originated. We do not necessarily grant the same percentage of subsidy in cases where the origin is not known. The hon. member pleaded for a 100% subsidy to be awarded to local authorities which combat oil pollution effectively, irrespective of whether the origin is known. I do not want to elaborate on this, except for saying that a new Prevention and Combating of Oil Pollution at Sea Act is being drawn up and will be introduced in Parliament next year. Several aspects will receive attention, one of the reasons being that South Africa has joined the International Convention on Civil Liability for Damage by Oil Pollution, which deals with bodies other than just Governments. TOVALOP—the Tanker Owners’ Voluntary Agreement concerning Liability for Oil Pollution—has consequently amended its constitution, which will have an effect in practice. Bearing all these matters in mind, we shall give attention to the matter raised by the hon. member.

The hon. member also asked for more research in connection with pollution. I want to assure him that the department, in co-operation with the CSIR, is presently considering research in connection with certain aspects. I shall mention just a few of them. Firstly, an investigation of the effect of dispersing agents and oil on marine organisms; secondly, the protection of penguins against oil pollution by the use of acoustic methods; thirdly, characterization of oils; fourthly, coastal dynamics; and fifthly, routes of oil, physical and chemical and routes of oil, biological, etc. Therefore we do intend to give careful attention to further research.

The hon. member spoke with appreciation of the work which was done with regard to the Venpet and the Venoil, and I hope the Committee will not take it amiss of me if I just read a short letter which the department has received in this connection from a great authority. The letter comes from the American Bureau of Shipping and is signed by Mr. H. E. Millard. He writes to Mr. Eksteen, the Secretary for Transport, and says—

I shall not read any further from this letter. However, I must say that one appreciates receiving such letters in connection with the actions of the department.

The hon. member for Groote Schuur mentioned several matters. I want to tell him at the outset that his suggestions in connection with a coast guard have already been referred to the Marine Advisory Board. This is the advisory board in connection with the control of maritime traffic. At the moment, the Department of Transport, in its administration of the Merchant Shipping Act as a whole, is the competent authority in the Republic with regard to matters of this nature. The Merchant Shipping Act is a comprehensive piece of legislation. It runs to more than 500 pages, and 32 sets of regulations have been made under this Act. Among other things, the Act gives effect to the International Convention on International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea, 1972. These are the rules of navigation which have been internationally accepted and are also enforced by the Department of Transport of the Republic. Apart from this, the Department of Transport has not hitherto regulated maritime traffic as such.

An existing arrangement in terms of which loaded tankers have to stay at a distance of 12 miles or more outside certain lines and promontories on the South African coast is an arrangement which is being voluntarily complied with. In fact, this arrangement has been working well since 1972. Unfortunately, the incident between the Venpet and Venoil has put a question mark behind it.

I said last year, in reply to a question by the hon. member for Groote Schuur, that a coast guard service was something which could fruitfully be investigated by the National Marine Advisory Board. This brings me to the further question about people who sit in Pretoria. This is something to which the hon. member referred in his speech yesterday. I suspect that he was referring to the National Marine Advisory Board. I have the names of the members of the board here and I could furnish the names to the hon. member. However, I do not want to take up the time of the House unnecessarily. But if the hon. member is interested, I shall make them available to him.

The hon. member wanted to know from me whether we had already received a report in connection with the inquiry into the collision between the Venpet and the Venoil. I have not yet received a report. I gave my approval for the inquiry to be attended by two people of my department. When the report is made available, we shall study it, together with the report which will be drawn up by the said two representatives of the Department of Transport, by virtue of their attendance of the inquiry. This will enable us to decide what should be done about this matter.

The hon. member for Groote Schuur raised another matter here. He alleged that the shipping industry would feel happier if a judge were appointed as chairman of a court of marine inquiry. I do not think he said that a judge would be preferable to a magistrate, but he did say that it should be possible to appoint a judge. At the moment, the Act provides for the appointment of a magistrate. That is to say, if a judge is to be appointed, this will necessitate an amendment to the Act. I must say it is interesting to note that we have never had any appeals in this connection. A person who feels that he has been prejudiced by the ruling of such a court may appeal to the Supreme Court, but we have never had any such appeals. From this I must conclude that good work has been done under the chairmanship of magistrates who have acted in this capacity from time to time. However, I do not want to reject this out of hand. I think one may well consider whether the Act should not leave one the choice of appointing either a judge or a magistrate. If this were so, one would be able to decide, in accordance with the case, to appoint a judge or an ex-judge if this is justified by the merits of the case. We shall give attention to that.

The hon. member also asked me a question in connection with the investigation relating to small boats. The preliminary investigation has been completed. Approximately a thousand questionnaires have been sent out to Government institutions and other parties. This report is expected round about September of this year.

I want to express my appreciation to the hon. members for Vasco, Tygervallei and Langlaagte and the other hon. members who spoke about the question of the tunnel and who made a very interesting and valuable contribution. I really do not think we need take that matter any further. The hon. member for Vasco also mentioned several other matters. He asked for greater liaison between the National Transport Commission and the provinces. As he rightly said, there is liaison on the engineering level at the moment. As far as the financial level is concerned, I doubt whether such liaison could really serve much purpose. The provinces receive their money in the form of grants from the Treasury, while the funds of the National Transport Commission, which are paid into the National Transport Fund, are obtained by means of a levy on fuel. However, there are cases where the National Transport Commission helps the provinces. This happens in the case of roads which are in the national interest. I am thinking, for example, of roads such as those at Sir Lowry’s Pass, Harrismith, Van Reenen, Kroonstad and Ventersburg. Such roads are declared to be national roads in terms of the Act and are constructed with money from the Road Fund. In other words, during the construction of such a road it is declared to be a national road and financed by means of money in the Road Fund. Afterwards, such roads are given back to the provinces for further maintenance. In such cases, the National Transport Commission naturally retains sole responsibility for the way the funds have to be spent. Nevertheless, Sir, I think the idea expressed by the hon. member is a constructive one to which we should give attention. Co-ordination of any kind with regard to State departments can only serve a useful purpose. I cannot think of any case where it could have any disadvantages.

The hon. member for Humansdorp raised several matters relating to aircraft accidents and airport buildings. He also referred to the question of the taxation of fuel for aircraft. We shall give careful attention to the ideas expressed by the hon. member. I thank him for what he said.

The hon. member for Umhlanga raised various matters, and I do not want to discuss them in too much detail. One of the matters he mentioned was in connection with the handling of luggage at airports. He said that when he arrived at the airport with hand luggage only, it should be possible for him to be served at a different counter from the person who had a large suitcase to be weighed in.

Hear, hear!

At that stage I told the hon. member that I was afraid this was something which fell under the Minister in charge of the Airways. [Interjections.] The arrangements with regard to the reservation of seats and the weighing in of luggage are handled by the S.A. Airways. However, I have taken note of what the hon. member said here and I shall go into it. I do not think it is viable, however, because it would inevitably involve additional counters, costs, and a good many things besides. But we shall look at it. The hon. member was very gratified by the fact that we had, it seems, already implemented an earlier recommendation of his. So I listen with great attention to constructive proposals made here about better procedures to be used at our airports, on our aircraft, or anywhere else. In these places, one deals with people, and whenever one is dealing with people, one always has a reaction. When one is dealing with goods or animals, one does not get so much of a reaction. But goodness knows, when it comes to the aircraft on which all my colleagues travel, I get many little notes about shortcomings and things which were not quite what they ought to have been.

The hon. member also spoke of the seats at Louis Botha Airport.

Lack of seats.

It is true that seats were removed because of the congestion. The seats were removed to relieve the congestion there. The hon. member also spoke about the refreshment services at Port Elizabeth. Furthermore, he objected to the fact that there were still apartheid measures at Port Elizabeth airport. When the new extension at Port Elizabeth airport has been completed, however—so that it fits into our pattern of airports—the apartheid measures there will also be completely removed.

I want to make haste now. The hon. member for Koedoespoort…

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he would give consideration to the question of parking bays?

That is a matter for the contractors. But I have taken note of the hon. member’s suggestion in that connection. He is afraid, of course, that he will not be able to find his car because he may forget where he left it.

Always!

Now he wants a number to indicate where he left his car. However, this is a matter which we will take up with the contractors. I have nevertheless taken cognisance of the hon. member’s idea.

He is lost politically as well.

The hon. member for Koedoespoort made a plea in connection with a matter which is of great concern to us all up in Pretoria. I am referring to the Black traffic between Mabopane and Pretoria. I have had talks with that hon. member and other hon. members of the Pretoria area on various occasions in connection with this matter. We understand one another very well. Of course we should like to expedite the negotiations as far as possible and we should also like to be successful in our negotiations and talks and to make progress. In connection with this matter, however, the hon. member spoke of the road. This road is of course a provincial road. Seen from that point of view, it is not something which falls under me, of course. If I understood him correctly, he pleaded for a contribution to be made from the Road Fund …

An advance.

He asked for an advance or a contribution of some kind to expedite the building of this road and to ease the flow of the traffic there. I shall ask the National Transport Commission to have a look at this matter.

The hon. member for Hillbrow mentioned two matters, but I shall not discuss them in detail. He referred in the first place to the Weather Bureau and the submission of weather reports, and then he joined issue with me about the urban transport plan we have envisaged but for which we have not appropriated the necessary funds. I do not want to argue with the hon. member about this. The fact of the matter is that under the present circumstances we do not have the funds available to proceed with that project as rapidly as we would like to. The hon. member will just have to accept that. I am just as eager as he to proceed with it. He tried to weigh up the priority of roads against that of the regulation of urban traffic. However, I do not think that this is the time to discuss that. My reply to the hon. member is simply that we have approved the plan which appeared in the White Paper and in terms of which we envisaged that R52 million a year would be appropriated. This will not be done at once, but it will be done in due course.

It is urgent.

We would have made more rapid progress with it than we have if we had had the necessary funds available. The hon. member will concede, however, that in the present economic times, one does not have all the means one could wish for, and that as a result, we shall be forced to proceed more slowly with this project than we had envisaged. I have details in front of me with regard to the funds which have been made available to us, but it is no use going into these at this stage. The fact of the matter is that because of the lack of funds, progress is slower than we had intended.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he does not feel that, if we provide more funds for this project, we can save the country more money sooner?

I do not want to argue with the hon. member about that. In that case I have to get the funds and the fact is that I do not have them. I have to get them from the Minister of Finance and he tells me that there are other matters which enjoy a higher priority than this project. That is the problem. However, I am not quarrelling with the hon. member. I too want to expedite this matter as far as possible. At the moment, however, the necessary funds simply are not available.

The hon. member for Bethlehem spoke of the staff involved in the weather modification project at Bethlehem. I shall gladly give him some particulars. The Department of Transport has six professional officers there, four technicians, seven administrative members of staff and four pilots. As far as the contract workers are concerned, the Water Research Commission employs five professional officers, three technicians and two statisticians there. This gives a total of 31. Of the contract workers, six were recruited overseas. Two of them have resigned. I have already given instructions for university students who are studying for the B.Sc. (Meteorology) degree to be allocated to the weather modification project for the first two years after they have graduated, in order to be trained so that the overseas workers may gradually be phased out. At the moment there are four students who are in their final year. Attention will also be given to the other aspects, such as the question of aircraft, which the hon. member mentioned here.

The hon. member for Bellville made a very valuable contribution in connection with the research which has been done at Antartica. We now have a suitable ship for continuing that work to the best of our ability, thereby making a contribution which will benefit not only South Africa, but the whole world.

I have come to the end of my reply. I want to conclude by saying that in my opinion, at any rate, we have had a fruitful discussion here.

Mr. Chairman, when the hon. the Minister replied to what I said yesterday, he did not mention anything about the Sterkspruit interchange on National Route 3. If he has not had time to look into this, I should like to ask him to do so and to give reasons why it is necessary to close this interchange.

Mr. Chairman, I have in fact looked into it and I shall still look at it more closely. The closing of the Sterkspruit interchange could possibly be postponed, depending on circumstances in the area. I shall discuss the matter with the National Transport Commission.

Mr. Chairman, I should just like to thank the hon. the Minister for looking into this. I do know that, if his department does see fit to postpone that decision, it will be gratefully received in that particular area.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No. 11.—“National Education”:

Mr. Chairman, as a result of the private member’s motion of the hon. member for Virginia, we have already had the opportunity to talk in general about educational matters in South Africa. Unfortunately much of that debate went wrong, since for want of good arguments, personal attacks were launched in their stead and in fact this was done to such an extent that I think some members burnt their fingers by their references to statements which were not made by us on this side. I have in mind in particular the reference to a particular organization which was mentioned neither by myself nor my party. The organization was dragged in by the hon. the Minister in order to attack me, but all he succeeded in doing was to present the organization in a ridiculous light.

What organization are you referring to? [Interjections.]

The hon. the Minister also went back in history to the time when he was still a youngster. From that history he also drew things to indicate that when I speak, I should really consult my conscience.

That is definitely the case.

The previous debate on educational matters did not really deal with the challenges facing our country now, but in my opinion that was brought home to each hon. member of the Committee during the discussion of the Vote of the hon. the Minister of Defence. I believe I am speaking on behalf of all hon. members present when I say that during the discussion of that Vote we became aware of the dangers threatening us in every possible sphere …

Helen was not here then.

… not only in the military sphere, but in the diplomatic and the economic as well as in the spiritual sphere. I am of the opinion that it is the duty and the task of each department and consequently of each hon. Minister to explain to the Committee how he thinks his department and its particular policy can contribute to the preparedness of the country as a whole in the face of the onslaughts which undoubtedly await us. We all hope and pray that the onslaughts will not come, but we also know that there is a strong possibility that the onslaughts will indeed be launched. The hon. the Minister of Defence has given a good account of his stewardship. He convinced us that whatever can be done on the purely military field, is in fact being done. In the same way the hon. the Minister of Finance explained to us how, in the economic and financial sphere, matters are being arranged in such a way that we shall ultimately be able to ward off the onslaughts. However, we now come to the question of education.

Answer the hon. the Prime Minister’s questions.

I shall answer his questions; that is to say if I shall get the opportunity in the few minutes at my disposal. Nevertheless I shall try. [Interjections.]

The hon. the Minister of National Education has identified himself with the statement by the hon. member for Virginia that there should be indoctrination at school as well. To a limited extent, but outside the party political context, of course, one cannot really object to it too much. The important question is: What is the content of that indoctrination? I have no doubt about its content as far as the White schools in South Africa are concerned, but my fear and my misgivings arise when I think of how the 3,5 million Black school children and the approximately 0,75 million Coloured school children are indoctrinated. The hon. the Minister will shy away from this question by saying that we are only dealing with White education in this debate. The fact of the matter is, however, that the hon. the Minister is a member of the Cabinet. It is the Cabinet which determines the policy, for the other departments as well. The hon. the Minister is therefore a co-party member when it comes to the determination of doctrines or ideologies introduced into the education of Black and Coloured school children. This question arises because there is a major—I am tempted to call it an insurmountable—difference between the policies of the governing party and that of the party to which I have the honour of belonging. The policy of my party is that we are building a pyramid in which all the good elements of the people in South Africa are incorporated and which rests on a firm foundation. Against that, the NP, the governing party, has separate pillars, and now they find themselves in the dilemma that they must lay down, design and execute a war effort on pillars standing apart from one another …

Order! The hon. member must confine himself to the National Education Vote.

Mr. Chairman, as you wish. This is my answer to the question on our policy with regard to schools. The question has of course been answered tens of dozens of times …

But never satisfactorily.

It has always been answered fully and satisfactorily and if I am now to play the role of a teacher, I shall repeat it. All statutory discrimination is abolished. All the many hundreds of laws passed since 1948 each contain a reference to race or colour and this must now be deleted. This applies to education as well.

Order! The hon. member must accept the guidance of the Chair and come back to the National Education Vote.

Mr. Chairman, as you wish. [Interjections.] Unfortunately I cannot go further into this aspect; hon. members have heard the ruling from the Chair.

Speak about the schools then.

I was talking about the schools and was ruled out of order. [Interjections.] I now want to come to an important aspect. Hon. members can regard it as a joke if they want to. I suppose the hon. the Minister will also make a joke of it again. Nevertheless, if we are going to be in the position eventually of not conveying the right things to our children by means of our schools, we are definitely going to have difficulties at a time when we are going to be under greater pressure than we are today. Then when we shall have to think back and decide who is to blame for the poor morale which might develop, not only on the battle front—that is not the only important factor— but also on the homefront. We in South Africa have to fight on two fronts, viz. a home front, where we must have willing and loyal workers, as well as on the battle front, where we must have loyal, willing and brave fighters. If we do not indoctrinate and foster the correct approach in our schools by means of our educational policy, to use the words of the hon. the Minister—we shall find at a critical stage that our policy has left us in the lurch. Therefore my first question to the hon. the Minister is: What exactly is the Government doing in connection with the totality of our youth regarding the onslaughts which we can expect? Secondly—this is quite a different aspect that I now wish to raise—I should like to know what the hon. the Minister intends doing about the salary structures of teachers of advanced technical education. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, as we anticipated, the hon. member for Johannesburg North wanted to delete the words “colour” and “race”, etc. with a stroke of the pen. We had expected a return to the same old theme. We are dealing with the National Education Vote and that comprises the education of the White child. I should now like to give that hon. member a little peace of mind by telling him that I have never come across an educationist of note who advocates what that hon. member is advocating, and I have never encountered anyone whose intentions with regard to his people are serious, who advocates what that hon. member advocates. I wish to refer the hon. member to one very important aspect in education which should be remembered by all of us, viz. the fifth commandment in the Bible which reads: “Honour thy father and thy mother”. I do not think that there is anybody in the House who does not know what this commandment entails and means. This does not only concern one’s own father and mother; it reaches far wider than that.

Furthermore, I should like to point out that in Canada, where such schools exist, as those which the hon. member wants, the Indians, in a memorandum on school integration, said the following—

Later in the same document reference is made to the peoples’ heritage which should be developed in order to enhance a nation’s preparedness. These thoughts were expressed by people who take themselves seriously. Reference has been and will continue to be made here to the threats which we in South Africa have to contend with today, and I should like to content myself with the remark that the only countermeasure against Marxist communist imperialism—that is what we are facing—is faith and nationalism, in the wider sense of the word. It is only these two things which can combat communism because they concern the soul. Man’s soul is something absolutely basic and that is what we are dealing with in education.

I should like to turn to another theme. I obtained my Std. 8 certificate from a little intermediate school in the country, a little school at Ottosdal. The motto of that school was and still is: “Ons bou.” If we are to find a theme for this debate on the education of our youth, the theme “we are building a future”, would certainly be a good one.

This immediately brings me to the officials of the department—all the officials from the Secretary down—who have worked very hard with regard to various aspects affecting education, particularly in recent times. We should like to express our gratitude for their zeal and dedication. I should like to convey a special word of gratitude however to someone I have heard of. His name is Piet and he has been given the nickname Piet Promise and the Lord knows what else. I should like to call this Piet, Piet Positief or Piet Bou. I believe that if the theme “We are building a future” were to be accepted, it would indeed be applicable to the hon. the Minister of National Education. I have seldom in my life come across a man with so much enthusiasm and devotion to his task. If all of us in South Africa were to follow his example as regards dedication and enthusiasm, especially in education, things would go very well for education in South Africa. People reasonably close to him who know about the economic problems of our country, will also know of the struggle he had with regard to the new salary structure for our teachers.

Therefore I thank the hon. the Minister and all who had to work with him in order to accomplish that. In that way we have brought men back into education and there will automatically be a greater interest, because the father figure must not be lacking in education. The father figure is extremely important in education. This is one of the reasons for doing it in this way. I assume that the universities and colleges for advanced technical education will also get their turn in the foreseeable future. As far as the cultural officials are concerned, I believe that they might also be considered.

I should further like to convey a word of gratitude regarding the National Teachers’ Council. The relevant Act was passed here and has come into operation. On behalf of those of us on this side of the House I want to wish the National Teachers Council everything of the very best for the future. I want to assure them of our support.

There is still a lot to be done in the light of the onslaughts from outside, about which a great deal has been said in the House. It is important, however, that we maintain a cool head in the planning and co-ordination of all the various facets of our economy and all our departments, including education.

Culture will have to be given further attention. Culture in South Africa will have to be developed with regard to the English-speaking as well as the Afrikaans-speaking groups, for culture ties people to a people and a nation. Culture makes people proud and conscious of themselves. Therefore attention should be given to the theatre, to greater encouragement of writers, and to cultural organizations. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon. member for Hercules an opportunity to continue with his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for his gesture. Further planning will have to be carried out. And this will be to no avail if parents, the school, the Church and others devote themselves to the education of the young, if at the same time other instruments in our national set-up, for example radio and television, perhaps by showing particular films, break down the manners and customs which other bodies and institutions would like to instil in our youth. The entire news media, our writers—all these people—will have to work together in a team effort to prepare and equip our youth so that they too may contribute to the progress of our country.

There is another aspect concerning which I want to make a plea, and which should be investigated. In my opinion it is a very serious matter. To be able to improve productivity, our youth should be given the correct training. By that I mean the correct field of study, the correct course of study and the correct institutions. There will have to be better channelling of our youth to institutions where they can achieve most, and the optimum results can be obtained by effecting the proper preparation of manpower. I am requesting an early and thorough investigation into admission to universities. At the moment we do not have the ideal situation. Only 50% to 60% eventually obtain a degree. Only two-thirds pass their first year. In other words, in the first year 33% drop out. It is very expensive to keep students at universities. The State subsidy to universities amounts to up to R200 million per annum, which is lost in this way. A student who loses one year by failing, is costing the State, the taxpayers, R2 000 and more. Approximately 80% of our students enrol at universities and only 20% at colleges for advanced technical education. I maintain that many more students should be channelled to colleges for advanced technical education. For that reason I am grateful that a beautiful campus is being planned for the college for advanced technical education in Pretoria, a CATE with its campus of which all of us are going to be very proud. It covers 53 morgen and I request that if possible it should be expedited. If we could manage to channel the correct people to the universities, this would result in a saving of 50% on the cost of universities. From a cost point of view too it is, then, very important to cut costs, especially in these times when money is scarce, when the State cannot increase its subsidy any further and where it is difficult for universities to make ends meet. There will have to be an investigation in which quite a number of things will have to be taken into account, among other things, the transition from school to university. Many students do not go to university of their own free will. This is one problem.

The question now arises whether guidance is effectively enough brought to the attention of prospective students, particularly guidance regarding the cost of study, study methods and personal abilities. Further aspects which could possibly be investigated, are the question of whether adequate time is devoted to studies, whether students work hard enough, the role of emotional tension, whether students receive enough personal attention, and whether the stimulation provided is sufficient. Furthermore, attention should also be given to the question of whether the periods of study of students are adequate and whether an extension of the academic year should not be considered.

I do not know whether this is coincidence, but students at universities with a longer academic year produce better results than those at universities with a shorter academic year.

Now there is one other matter that I want to talk about. I want to make a plea on behalf of the gifted child. The hon. the Minister has already replied to questions in connection with the gifted child. The system of differentiated education which is being pursued in our schools today, caters for ordinary education, for practical education, as well as for education in special schools for the less gifted children. They are looked after. I feel, however, that the gifted children, particularly because they also go to university, and already at university do not do so well, mainly because at school they excelled very easily and without really exerting themselves. Therefore they expect to be able to do exactly the same at university and to achieve the same results in that way. I want to suggest that the question of the gifted child be looked at again. It is they who must be the leaders of tomorrow. It is estimated that 4% of a nation’s citizens should be in leading positions to enable the people to achieve what it should.

Finally, I should like to point out that in discussing the Education Vote, we should not lose sight of the fact that we are building the future.

Mr. Chairman, we have listened to various matters which were discussed by the hon. member for Hercules, important matters to which the hon. the Minister will definitely reply.

However—almost as the old people use to do—I want to exclaim: “Bless my soul!” Truly, I have never before known the chief spokesman of the Official Opposition on educational matters to need eight minutes to arrive at what he really wanted to say, especially after the Chairman of the Committee had had to call him to order twice! [Interjections.] I am surprised that we had to be treated to this kind of standpoint this afternoon, if I could euphemistically call it that.

Order! I ruled that the hon. member for Johannesburg North was not permitted to discuss those standpoints. Therefore I cannot allow the hon. member for Virginia to reply to them either. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, if I were to obey your ruling it seems to me that I would not be able to react at all to what the hon. member for Johannesburg North said, because he did not discuss National Education. Therefore I shall leave him at that, and it seems I shall have to confine myself to what we have learned from newspaper reports and what we have heard from other speakers about the policy of the PFP on National Education. [Interjections.] In the light of certain utterances by hon. members of the Official Opposition it is very clear that as far as their policy on National Education is concerned, it is a matter of a difference of approach between the PFP and the NP. In principle we see matters differently. Allow me to state unequivocally today that, according to the NP’s view education and training at school are a continuation of the primary task of the parental home as part of a nation. This task of the parental home is primarily to make the child realize that he may best fulfil and perform his task in life when he realizes that he is part of a specific nation with a particular outlook on life and the world. There is nothing strange about this. In fact there are many educationalists who have already stressed this aspect. I can refer hon. members for example to a document which appeared in 1972 entitled: “Statement of the Indian Philosophy of Education.” The hon. member for Hercules also referred to it. I just want to quote one passage from it—

In contrast to that we come now to the standpoint of the PFP. For the Official Opposition it is not so much a matter of traditions, identity, national feeling or the preservation of what is one’s own. For them it is basically a matter of world citizenship, with the breaking down of dividing lines and differences. For that reason education to them is chiefly a matter of social adjustment and the acquisition of knowledge of modern technology. I should like to substantiate this statement. I am referring to what the hon. member for Johannesburg North said when we discussed the motion on education. I am referring to Hansard 10 March 1978, col. 2760—

Sir, I continue. I want to quote what the hon. member for Pinelands said in this regard. After having pointed out that we had become a major world nation, he said the following (Hansard, 10 March 1978, col. 2774)—

And then, with a touch of scorn in fact, he spoke about those things which are dear to the Afrikaner people, to any people. I am quoting (Hansard, 10 March 1978, col. 2774)—

That is where the basic difference between the NP and the Official Opposition in the sphere of education is to be found. For the NP what is involved is very clearly the concept of separate but equal schools. Education and training are ethnically oriented. We cannot get away from that. It is accepted all over the world. Furthermore it is recognized that education and training as such cannot be separated from each other. They go hand in hand. No child can be raised in a neutral milieu. They are always brought up as part of and for a particular people with a specific relationship to the community and the State. Education is therefore the transfer of tradition, the tradition of the people to whom the pupil belongs. Here I should like to quote briefly from Emile Brunner on tradition. He says—

An education without tradition and culture therefore does not care about the survival of a particular people with its own essential characteristics, but about a group of individuals in a world community. This, then, is what the Official Opposition is aspiring after with their concept of world citizenship.

Consequently the task of education is that the school as an extension of the home should educate the pupil within a national context. It is the task of the school, apart the teaching of factual knowledge and the physical care of the child, which are of course important, to ensure that the pupil is fully equipped with the traditions and culture of the people to which he belongs. Therefore the school should conform to the nature and the background of its pupils. For that reason too we have education through the medium of the mother-tongue, we have the teaching of the history of the fatherland, we have familiarization with a particular outlook on life and we are also involved with culture in general when we are dealing with education in our schools.

Our answer to school integration, which is the official policy of the Official Opposition, is a very definite: No, it cannot be! Separate schools for White, Brown and Black is not discrimination. It is in fact differentiation. That I will concede. It is differences which is essential as a result of the difference in the nature and essence of the three population groups. It is also true and correct in the educational sense. Schools must eventually offer equal opportunities, but that very definitely does not mean that they should be the same. Separate schools is therefore not discrimination at all. We should not allow non-educational motives to play a part in the school and the educational policy, for if we allow that, we must decline into a situation which cannot be justified educationally.

The atmosphere and spirit in a school are powerful factors in education. In a heterogeneous school, where White, Brown and Black, with their different cultural backgrounds and traditions are instructed together, a feeling of coherence, harmony and a common allegiance which is essential at any school, will be totally absent, and any teacher who has had practical experience, will agree with me, even the chief spokesman of the NRP, who I assume is going to speak after me. I am sure he as an ex-teacher will agree with that. Since each of the three groups which I mentioned as extensions of the home feels strongly and ought to feel strongly about its own culture, traditions and identity, one is bound to have tension and conflict in such circumstances, which will inevitably result from those people wanting to advance their language and traditions.

Of course if we were to pursue the policy of the Official Opposition, and if we were to comply with the declaration of the hon. member for Pinelands, it would be acceptable. I quote what the hon. member for Pinelands said, inter alia (Hansard, 10 March, col. 2773)—

This is nothing but heresy! One cannot tolerate that someone should put forward such a standpoint or hypothesis in an educational debate. Such a state of affairs would present any teacher with a superhuman task. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Virginia raised a number of matters to which I am not going to reply. However, I want to mention the fact that he said earlier this year that no non-Christian-National-orientated person should enter the teaching profession. I am still waiting for the hon. the Minister to react to that. I am also waiting for him to react to the hon. member’s statement that it is the task and the duty of a teacher to indoctrinate. [Interjections.]

Now I want to turn to certain educational matters. The previous year was virtually dominated by the anticipation of the announcement of the new salary scales and the posts structure. These were awaited with great anticipation. Of course, if one wants to be critical, one can criticize the long period of time which elapsed prior to their coming into effect. However, that is not the point I want to make. As far as I was able to ascertain, and regard being had to the financial situation in the country, there was virtually complete acceptance of these scales. Criticism was mainly directed at the sudden levelling-off occurring with regard to the top posts. Therefore, I want to make it perfectly clear once more that as long as the Public Service Commission has to be consulted in the determination of salary scales for the teaching profession, one will have this problem with regard to the top posts. It is quite clear that we in the NRP want to get rid of this problem. Ultimately complete independence from the Public Service Commission will have to be obtained for the teaching profession. I hope the hon. the Minister will bring his influence to bear in this regard.

The hon. member for Hercules has already said that we have brought the male figure back into teaching. I want to say that that remains to be seen. I do believe that the salary scales have created a favourable and even ideal climate for a recruiting campaign to be launched by the department as well as the provinces, as a result of which they ought to be able to succeed in attracting the top boys and girls to the profession during the next two or three years. We must realize that this is very essential for the profession. We must also have regard to the fact that there has been concern in the immediate past about the perceptible decline in the competence of would-be teachers. There has also been ample proof of poorly qualified teachers in certain subjects. In the case of science, for example, 50% of the teachers have had special training of one year or even less in that subject. The authorities must realize that if an answer cannot be found to inflation, this favourable climate for an enterprising recruiting campaign will only last from two to three years. The improved salary scales have created that climate, but we shall have to exploit that within the next three years. We should like to see the Minister furnishing proof in this House that this opportunity has been grasped because it is not an opportunity we dare allow to slip through our fingers, because if we do, we shall find that in spite of the improved salary scales the male figure has not yet been brought back into teaching.

Today I want to pay specific attention to the position of the married woman in the teaching profession. In a report of the Committee of Heads of Education mention is made of the fact that the inter-departmental advisory committee on educational matters investigated the position of married women in education and made recommendations in this regard. I should like the hon. the Minister to give us more information about this. It is a matter of urgency that satisfactory attention be given to this matter. I believe it is a matter that has been shelved for too many years. In practice one finds that married women are not treated equally in all the provinces. Incidentally, Natal is perhaps the one province that has adopted a more accommodating attitude with regard to married women. However, it does not matter at this stage. The fact remains that the policy with regard to married female teachers generally has educational as well as personal drawbacks.

Let us look at the type of educational drawbacks it has. In some provinces it is regarded as inevitable that the married female teacher will lose her post if an unmarried female teacher applies for that post.

It’s a disgrace!

It is a procedure which has been in force for a very long time. The hon. member for Houghton says, “It’s a disgrace!” I want to say that after so many years it is more than a disgrace. The criterion which is applied is obviously not the criterion of academic qualifications and professional merit. In actual fact it amounts to the consideration whether the female teacher is, unfortunately, married or whether she is not married. Educationally it has absolutely no right of existence. That is one side of the picture. The people who suffer in consequence of this in certain cases, are the children and education as such.

Now let us look at the personal drawbacks. One of the drawbacks is that if the married female teacher cannot be appointed permanently, she cannot participate in the pension fund either. Now it does happen— examples have come to my notice—that when a teacher who has taught in one way or another her whole life long, reaches retirement age she finds that no provision has been made for a pension for her. We cannot accept at face value the argument that a married woman is not the breadwinner. In the case of some families or households the concept of breadwinner is in actual fact a relative one. Often it also happens that a married woman suddenly finds that she has to be the breadwinner as a result of the death of her husband. Although she can start building up pension benefits at that stage it is too late for her to build up appreciable pension benefits. At times it does happen that she can fall back on some group insurance scheme, but very often the benefits of such a scheme are so paltry that they are not worthwhile.

I do not want to oversimplify the problem. I realize that the young female teacher, especially the one who was given a loan, must be appointed to some post as well. What I do not want, however, is that we simply investigate the problem and make recommendations about it without every really facing up squarely to the problem. Therefore, I want to make positive suggestions to the hon. the Minister today. I believe that pension fund contributions should be made compulsory for teachers even if they are only appointed in temporary capacities. If that is done, we shall not have the position of a person who has taught in a temporary capacity her whole life long never having made provision for a pension. I believe that payments from a pension fund should not take place summarily when the contributor stops teaching and the possibility exists of transferring those contributions to another pension fund. Actually the pension money should be available to the contributor only upon her retirement.

†I should now like to raise very briefly two matters concerning the universities. In the first instance I want to refer to the matter of university financing. I think we ought to accept that there has been an improvement resulting from the new formula, but at the same time we ought to accept that certain aspects of the formula militate against some universities and particularly against those with a high percentage of post-graduate students and those who are forced to provide hostel accommodation for a high percentage of their students. I say once again that I cannot claim that I have the answer, but I believe that the authorities must be consciously aware of it all the time.

The second matter concerning the universities is the question of teachers’ training. I believe that especially in the Transvaal this matter has not been completely finalized as yet. I have all the sympathy with the hon. the Minister. I think the time has come that he should use his authority to ensure that there are no ideas of empire building in certain provinces. I consider it in the best interests of both the teachers’ training colleges and the universities that they arrive at a system of cooperation. The idea has been mooted in certain quarters that teachers’ training colleges should go so far as to award degrees. One can laugh such an idea out of court, but the trouble is that there are people who are seriously thinking along such lines. That is where the danger lies. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, as far as I am concerned, and I believe as far as this side of the House is concerned too, the hon. member for Durban Central did 100% better than the hon. member for Johannesburg North. The ideas expressed by the hon. member for Durban Central are definitely not ideas which can be brushed aside with “they are not worthwhile”. The hon. the Minister will definitely have to give attention to them. The hon. member also touched on certain aspects to which I shall refer in the course of my speech.

In education, especially in secondary and primary education, there are three pillars or partners which cannot be separated one from the other. The one cannot manage without the other. On the one hand there is education, that is, the authority, and on the other hand, as the two other pillars, there is the child and the parent. If one of these links in the educational process functions less efficiently, someone is going to suffer. However, that someone can only be the child. It is of the utmost importance that we realize that the child is unable to do anything about it. The child is the silent partner in the whole set-up. What is more: If the child is harmed, the nation suffers. The risk attached to rendering the other two supporting pillars less functional, is too big in this regard, because this is where the spadework is done to have the foundations of the nation crumble or to weaken those foundations.

I also want to refer to what was referred to by the hon. member for Durban Central when he dealt with the post and salary structure which had been created for teachers. We have been advocating this both inside and outside this House over the past few years and we have struggled to improve the position of the teacher. We have also expressed our concern about teachers leaving the profession and we have asked for measures to be taken to improve the position of the teacher, especially that of the male teacher, so that he may return to the profession. I feel that the role played by the hon. the Minister of National Education in this regard should not be overlooked. In fact, his role in the improved post and salary structure that has been announced, has not yet been properly evaluated. On the contrary, I have an idea about this and the hon. the Minister knows my standpoint and attitude in this regard. However, the position of the teacher has been improved in the course of the past year, and we are grateful for this.

Today, I want to confine myself to the role of the parent in this triangular partnership. What is the parent’s involvement in education and in the educational process? There are various methods by means of which the parent may become directly involved. Firstly, this may come about by means of representation and the election of school boards. Secondly, it may come about by means of representation on the advisory councils, control boards or school committees of the various schools. The parent will have to endeavour to an increasing extent to obtain the best possible representation in this regard. I feel this is his right. Thirdly, the participation of the parent in a parent/teacher association is very important as well. These associations afford parents and teachers the opportunity to join forces and to co-operate on a joint level in the interest of the school and therefore in the interest of the child. Fourthly, the parent has the opportunity to participate actively in extra-mural programmes. I feel this is one of the spheres in which the parent can be included with a great deal of success. Extra-mural activities must not be seen as a duty and responsibility which is obviously that of the teacher.

I want to dwell for a moment on the lack of parent involvement when it comes to education itself. Last year we suddenly landed in a chaotic state of utter confusion when the newspapers suddenly discovered with a great deal of clamour that in terms of the new differentiated system of education, the practical course could not obtain a matriculation certificate for the pupil following the course. The newspapers had immediate success in getting the parents on their side. I want to read two quotations from newspaper reports which appeared last year. The first appeared in Beeld of 19 October 1977 and I shall just read the heading—

The report goes on from there. The following appeared in the editorial of Oggendblad of 14 October 1977—

Now we have the heartbreak cases—

These are the newspaper stories. I want to go further and say that our newspapers did not check the facts due to ignorance or possibly purely for the purpose of creating sensation. In the same editorial in Oggendblad we find—

What are the true facts? Firstly, what is this practical course? I quote from the Handleiding vir die Implementering van Gediffe-rensieerde Onderwys in Transvaal—

This is the essence of this practical course.

Prior to the creation of this dispensation, the pupils to whom the above definition refers, had not other choice but to leave school after Std. 8. They followed the so-called Std. 8 course or what is called the C-stream course in the Transvaal. Prior to the implementation of the new system of differentiated education, only 53% of the pupils who started in Std. 6 passed matric. Last year the position was that 64% of these pupils had received five years of high school training. These are important facts. Previously these pupils had to leave school at approximately the age of 16 years; inexperienced and unable to cope with the rigours of adult life. Under the present dispensation they have the opportunity to remain at school up to the age of 17 or 18 years. Therefore, that pupil has the opportunity to enter life as a fairly adult person. I wish I had the time to digress on the particulars of this course, but time does not permit.

I want to conclude by referring to parent involvement in this set-up. The guidance setup is probably one of the most important components of a successful practical course. When a parent is confronted with the fact that his child has to follow the practical course, he as a parent—and this is his right—must demand to be properly and fully informed by the school on all aspects of the course. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, as main speaker on this side of the House the hon. member for Hercules gave us as the theme for this debate that very stimulating, gripping and challenging clarion call: “We are building our future.” It is indeed remarkable that at a time of economic recession at a time when we have cut down on the majority of Votes— if not in actual figures, then in real terms— and at a time when foreign powers are building up against us, we have increased our expenditure on education considerably. This holds good for the education of all our population groups. This budget tells us in the clearest possible language that we have invincible faith in our survival in this country and in our future which we are building. It also shows that education is very high on the list of priorities which has been drawn up for building our future. We are always pointing out how important education is. I think with this budget we are saying very clearly and in a tangible form just how important education is and what a high position it occupies on our list of priorities. The investment we are making in this way, is one which is going to yield very rich dividends, because what a nation invests in the brainpower of its young people, is an investment in a more beautiful, better more prosperous South Africa. There are many factors which are going to determine our future in this country. I believe that one of the most important is the premium which we are going to place on the development of the brainpower and mental power of our young people. Thirty years ago the subsidy for universities in this country was not even R1,5 million; today it is more than R200 million. The expenditure on the smallest of our universities today is four times the amount we spent on all universities 30 years ago.

The hon. member for Hercules dealt with the high failure rate at our universities. I want to associate myself with what he said. Some time ago the hon. the Minister gave us an indication of what this tremendously high failure rate cost the country every year. If my memory does not fail me, he said that it cost the taxpayer from R20 to R25 million every year. The failure rate at our universities exceeds 40%. If we could save that money, we would in one year alone have saved half the money we need for the proposed Afrikaans university in Natal, a university which we will probably still get one day. I, too, want to deal with the high failure rate at our universities and the method of financing universities which I feel may be a means of combating this very high failure rate. I want to refer exhaustively to a speech which was made about two weeks ago by Prof. Henderson, the Rector and Vice-Chancellor of Rhodes University, on the occasion of the graduation ceremony at that university. It was a speech which generated a great deal of interest, one of which the hon. the Minister may definitely take cognizance. He referred to the fact that out of every 100 students admitted to our universities, only 55 eventually obtained a degree. He then calculated that if we were to admit only 50 of those students, 40 of them would eventually obtain a degree. This is a pass rate of 80% as against the present one of 55%. He also calculated what this cost us. If 55 out of every 100 students succeed in obtaining a degree, it costs us R9 000 per graduate and if 40 out of 50 students were to pass, it would cost us R7 150 per graduate. Even more important: Marginal costs for each one of those additional 15 students who obtain a degree, is R16 000. The question is whether this is not tremendously high. It is always a very unpopular task to select students, but it is true that we can obtain a very much higher pass rate with better selection. Proof of this is the fact that some faculties, including the medical schools—which apply strict selection—have a pass rate of up to 90% and higher.

Now I want to point out a very interesting fact. Prof. Henderson referred to the well-known Chicago economist, Prof. Milton Friedman, a man, who advocates a very interesting solution to this problem. His very radical proposal is that university subsidies should be abolished and replaced by interest-free loans to students or parents, repayable only if the student does not succeed in obtaining his degree. The hon. member for Hercules has just spoken in glowing terms of the hon. the Minister’s enthusiasm. Of all his virtues, his enthusiasm is probably one of the finest and I can wax lyrical about his other virtues. I feel that once the hon. the Minister has seen the implications of Milton Friedman’s proposal, he will really be inspired. Of course, there are several variations on this proposal by Milton Friedman. If a course at a university costs R2 500 per annum, the student must be made to realize that this is what his university training costs, and not the R500 which he pays in class fees, and he should receive a specified account in which it is indicated that in addition to the R500 which he pays in class fees, there is still an amount of R2 000 which is contributed by some source in order to keep him at university. I should like to read an interesting quotation from the speech by Prof. Henderson. Referring to Milton Friedman’s proposal he said—

This is a very important matter. We must move away from socialism. I think it is going to give our students a greater sense of responsibility if they know what it really costs to attend university for a year. Prof. Henderson went on to say—

The advantages of this proposal are obvious. We are going to combat the high failure rate, because our students will then have a greater sense of responsibility. Some time ago I saw figures which deeply alarmed me, and which showed that the average number of study hours per week of students who had failed, was 28. This figure includes the time they spent in attending classes. This is alarmingly low. I believe that with this system we shall push that figure up to 40 hours per week. We shall break away from socialism. This will bring about a considerable saving and will make money available to expand services at our universities. I have no hesitation whatsoever to ask the hon. the Minister to take a very sympathetic look at the proposal of Prof. Milton Friedman.

Mr. Chairman, I have no fault to find with the essence of the argument of the hon. member for Port Natal. However, I should like to return to a comment made by the hon. member for Virginia. He said that the basic premise of the education policy of the Government was that education should be separate but equal. I only want to say to the hon. member that that simply is not a reflection of reality, because neither the facilities nor the teachers nor the State expenditure in this regard reflects the approach to which the hon. member referred. Especially at university level we see that a tendency has been developing during the past few years. We see, for example, that 400 Coloured students were admitted to so-called White universities in 1976; in 1977, 497 and in 1978, 734. This year 189 Blacks were admitted. When we look at Durban-Westville, we see that 24 Whites were admitted there and about 20 at the University of the Western Cape. We do not even have segregation in this regard. It is in view of these facts that I want to say to the hon. the Minister that I think the time has come for the Government to consider re-opening the so-called White universities in the sense that the universities should have the autonomy or the right to decide who may teach at those universities and whom they are going to accept as students.

I welcome this tendency I have just mentioned. I do not regard it as a step towards internationalism or cosmopolitanism. I regard it as healthy realism, for the simple reason that it is impossible in a developing country like South Africa to provide satisfactory and advanced training on a basis of separation and equality. I shall return to this point later.

In my plea to the hon. the Minister I shall not resort again to what some hon. members would describe as a liberal nagging about why I think it is necessary that universities should be opened. There are practical considerations for that, and I should like to hear how the hon. the Minister reacts to them. There are practical considerations why I believe the time has come for us to re-open the universities which fall under the Department of National Education. I want to mention five considerations to the hon. the Minister.

In the first place, in terms of legislation which has been passed recently, greater autonomy is being given to the University of the Western Cape and to the University of Durban-Westville. I have no doubt that when these two universities get full autonomy—in the sense that I defined—they will be opened on this basis and students will be allowed to enroll there on this basis. I believe the hon. the Minister of National Education can take the lead here by doing it first, especially at White universities. This does not mean that when it happens, a specific university will sacrifice its nature or character. All that will happen is that the university itself will have the right or autonomy to determine what its own nature or character should be with regard to the community which it will serve.

The second consideration I want to mention to the hon. the Minister is that, as a result of the present economic circumstances, our universities in South Africa have developed enormous financial problems. One of the ways of solving these problems—the financial problems—is to rationalize and to try to prevent the unnecessary duplication of services, departments and subjects. In my opinion it is absurd to establish two faculties of dentistry within a radius of 20 miles. This is apparently what is being planned now. The University of Stellenbosch has a dental faculty. Apparently a dental faculty is now being planned at the University of the Western Cape as well. This involves enormous costs and I cannot understand why one of the two universities cannot become the centre for dental training. In this way vast amounts can be saved. I can really not understand how, when a Coloured or Black student becomes a student in dentistry at the University of Stellenbosch, it can harm his identity or his culture. As far as I am concerned, he is simply going there to receive specific training to enable him to serve the community in which he is interested and of which he forms part.

A third consideration is that there is no danger that other universities will lose all their students because students prefer certain universities. When all the universities have eventually been opened, it will, in my opinion, only create healthy academic competition between them. Naturally the existing universities, irrespective of their nature, are already serving the various communities efficiently.

This brings me to the fourth consideration. One of the dangers facing South Africa is the fact that we may also experience a cultural and academic boycott. Already there are signs of this. Already there is talk of this, too. I believe that if we move in this direction, it will be a very positive step, a step by which we will be able to resist such a boycott. It will also be clear proof that we are moving away from any form of discrimination as far as this is concerned. The hon. the Minister knows how often in the past this kind or argument was used with reference to differentiation or discrimination in university training in South Africa.

The fifth consideration is that this will counteract the racial polarization which is at present taking place in South Africa. Why? Because—so I believe—when we open the universities, we will be creating a forum in which students of different races and ethnic origin will be able to have contact with one another and to communicate with one another. The hon. member for Innesdal, for example, maintained vehemently the other day that communication was one of the central problems we were dealing with in South Africa. He said this repeatedly, but unfortunately he did not say how we could overcome this problem. He did not say what we had to do to narrow the communications gap.

I am absolutely convinced that if we provide the opportunity at our universities for students of different races or ethnic groups to study together and exchange ideas, an enormous positive contribution can be made to improved communication. You know, Sir, we are living here in a community with cultural groups, race groups and ethnic groups which have never really had contact with one another. The people in the one group do not understand the person or world of another group. That is a contributing factor to the growing polarization we are experiencing at present. These are the five considerations I want to put to the hon. the Minister. It seems to me that the climate is right for this, because the Prime Minister said in this House the other day—

If one looks at this quotation, one sees that the emphasis is in fact more on openness than on separation and equality. Sir, “separate and equal” is a financial and economic absurdity in a community like ours. It is as simple as that. There is no way in which an education system can force an identity on people in a community. If those various communities do not have a spontaneous need to preserve a specific culture or language, no law or education system can preserve it for them. If one attaches a positive interpretation to what the hon. the Prime Minister said, one can start moving in that direction and the hon. the Minister of National Education can take the lead by opening the so-called White universities.

Sir, there may be some confusion in this regard, because the hon. the Prime Minister also said the following—

That is not quite correct, Sir. The hon. the Minister knows as well as I do that the Government has to be asked for permission, by way of a permit, to have such a student accepted. In asking the hon. the Minister to open the White universities, I mean that that responsibility and that right should be vested in the university councils themselves. They should be able to decide who may teach and who may be admitted to the universities. If it has to be done by way of a permit, we are always going to have the complaint that it is the Government that is adopting authoritarian standpoint with regard to one of the basic functions of universities, i.e. to decide who may teach there and who may study there. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Rondebosch said right at the outset that we should not attack him as a result of the liberal statements he was going to make. With that, he tried to safeguard himself. But he cannot get away with that. Before I deal with him any further, I want to refer briefly to the hon. member for Johannesburg North, who asked what contribution education was making to the moral fortitude of the youth in this country. As long as the youth does not barter away the soul of this nation as that party has lost its soul, it will not be stripped naked so that it stands here with all its ribs showing. That party is soulless, and the wind of strange ideologies blows through them. As long as the youth of this country shows enthusiasm and accepts its tasks, it will go well with the defensive ability of this country’s people.

The hon. member for Rondebosch has spoken about the question of throwing open the universities as being a liberal concession and a doing away with all barriers and all reasons which we had for the establishment of ethnic universities. Sir, that is surely a big mistake. Surely it shows a lack of appreciation for the good actions which have been taken in this connection. It has always been part of the task of this Government and this department to instill a certain character and a pride of their own into these nations. That must be given to the youth and to leaders who grow up in this society. That is why that lovely University of the North, the University of Zululand, has a particular task and when these institutions of the various ethnic groups reach maturity, as they now have, those institutions will provide in specific needs. Our fine universities of today were formerly university colleges under the patronage of the University of South Africa. But they have become mature and have begun to stand on their own feet. As soon as they have become autonomous, there can be interaction, as is already the case. It is not a departure from the principles of this party or of this Government. Without getting caught up in the blind alleys, we keep pace with development. But that does not mean that we are doing away with the nature and character of our universities. These institutions of ours have reached maturity, and the voice which university councils have in the control of the universities, in co-operation with the various Ministers who are concerned with the various population groups, we can, with confidence, leave it in the hands of this hon. Minister. We can trust him to ensure that those students will also get their due in this country. This Government has accepted the responsibility of paying just as much attention to the interests of other people as to those of the Whites. I think we ought to show appreciation for that. Those hon. members need not be anxious and impute certain things to us. They need not be concerned about what we ought to do or how we ought to do it.

The hon. member for Durban Central has put one question which I just want to attend to briefly. He has asked that we should separate education from the Civil Service setup altogether. That is all very well if we look at it superficially. Those of us who are sitting in this House have appointed the Civil Service Commission to exercise control over all the Government services and to coordinate matters.

I said we should look into that.

We must handle that matter very, very carefully. We must not simply drag it in haphazardly across the floor of the House.

[Inaudible.]

Please, in that sphere, we must handle matters very delicately.

I must now hurry up because I also want to make a small contribution to this debate. [Interjections.] Today I want to plead a matter which is very near to my heart. The centralization of primary schools has gone hand in hand with the depopulation of the country areas. That means that the country areas have been drained of primary schools. I am now referring to the smaller schools. I suppose many of the hon. members who sit here today attended such a little school, like I did. I therefore want to put the following question today: Can we really regard those small schools as inferior as far as education and training are concerned? The more the education facilities are withdrawn from the country areas, the more we are depriving the country areas of a great asset, a source of wealth. I say so because it is the small cultural unit, that gathering of people. Our young farmers who go and farm experience considerable loneliness. It entails considerable sacrifice for them to go and live there. Those farmers sometimes have to take their little children to a centralized school with a hostel. I have nothing against hostels, however, because I can understand the situation. But I have seen a mother and father drop a little grade I boy at a hostel. The little boy could not understand the situation, and as they drove away in the car, he looked for stones and threw them at the car because he could not understand why they were leaving him there.

That was a wild little fellow!

I therefore put it to the hon. the Minister. I know it is a provincial matter, but our young farmers in the country areas also want to retain the facilities of the small schools. I request the hon. the Minister to order an urgent investigation into the requirements of the small country schools tomorrow, without delay. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that there should be no school with fewer than three staff members. Let there be at least three for every school, regardless of how small the school becomes. I am asking that so that there can be a teacher for the different phases—a teacher for the junior primary phase, a teacher for the senior primary phase and a teacher for the standard five pupils to link up with the high school or secondary phases.

Also give that principal an administrative assistant who can assist him in the mornings and who can also attend to the library. If that is done, no parent need be worried about the quality of the education and training, even if he has only that small school at his disposal. There are great benefits attached to the greater centralization of schools, for example the greater supply of staff, better financing and better achievements in the field of sport. But we cannot pursue those ideals and lose the great value of education in our country areas. We cannot let those people down. We must plead this matter so that this facility can also be provided for, because the people in the country areas need schools as much as they do the co-operatives, banking facilities, etc.

Mr. Chairman, when the hon. member for Standerton talks about education, there is no one who can add to or detract anything from it.

I want to refer to the cultural agreements which the department has with a few European countries. Because those agreements do not operate in a vacuum, it is fitting to say something about culture. It is a historical fact that civilizations and communities are primarily maintained and secured, not by the quality of their technical ability or their scientific knowledge, nor primarily by their military strategy and their economy, but by the quality of their spiritual products. That is the test for the ability of any civilization to survive. In this connection, South Africa is second to no other country in the world. In fact, I think that we are in the position to tell the world something in this connection.

It is also an acknowledged fact that internationally, South Africa is being left with less room for manoeuvre. A strategy is afoot to isolate South Africa politically and economically. Because that is so, and because I am convinced that South Africa has something to tell the world, I ask myself whether the time is not ripe for a shift of emphasis in the Republic’s foreign strategy, namely to state South Africa’s case to the outside world dynamically and positively, in cultural and educational terminology as well. South Africa must break out of the network of isolation by making use, inter alia, of its cultural contacts with the outside world.

I want to allege that in the field of culture and education, South Africa is given an open and sympathetic hearing abroad. That is no illusion; these are no straws at which I am clutching—I can furnish proof. I quote what our ambassador in Montevideo wrote—

In the same way, I could bring several references to show what people who had visited South Africa said afterwards. They say: “South Africa, you are given a sympathetic hearing abroad; take action in the cultural and educational fields.” In consequence of a visit by a Dr. McClaren from Peru, the Department of Foreign Affairs wrote—

I can continue like this and I quote, finally, from a personal letter which I received from Dr. Verbrugh of the Netherlands, in which he wrote to me—

The questions which the gentleman asks can be answered on an educational and cultural level. If we return to practice and reality, we see that South Africa and the Department of National Education had three cultural agreements with the outside world. The agreement with the Netherlands was cancelled in October 1977. The agreement with Belgium has been put on ice, and at present we have only one workable cultural agreement, and that is with Bonn, West Germany. If we look at the budget, we notice that an amount of R183 000 has been budgeted for this agreement and for stating South Africa’s case to the outside world in the cultural and educational field as well. I want to point out to the hon. the Minister that if he agrees with me that South Africa can also be boosted with the aid of cultural and educational terminology, this amount is totally inadequate. Mr. Chairman, please permit me, while I am speaking about the cultural agreement with Bonn, to express the thanks of the Committee to our representative, the cultural attaché there, Dr. Grobbelaar. I want to place on record that this Committee is grateful for the work which he does there for us.

The loans which the department makes available to students in Germany are also totally inadequate. If one compares these loans with loans which these countries make available to students from African countries, for example, one sees that the loans granted by South Africa are only one-third of the loans which are offered to African countries.

South Africa is given more than just a sympathetic hearing by the ordinary people of Europe, America and Africa. The instrument for reaching these people and for promoting South Africa there, too, is, inter alia, culture and education. In view of that, I ask the hon. the Minister … and I request him earnestly … to consider the appointment of an interdepartmental committee of all the parties which are concerned with the promotion of the Republic’s image abroad. This committee must consider a new strategy, a suitable style to promote the image of South Africa. In this new strategy, education and culture deserve particular emphasis. I also ask the hon. the Minister to realize that with the present budget, no results can be expected, and I therefore ask him to increase this amount tenfold. This interdepartmental committee of interested parties—if the hon. the Minister considers it advisable to appoint such a committee—should also look at the conventional fiscal problems which make it very difficult for South Africa’s men on the outposts to accomplish their task there.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat will forgive me if I do not follow his line of argument, because I would like to comment briefly on the interest shown by the hon. member for Hercules and subsequently by the hon. member for Port Natal when they, in glowing terms, referred to the principle of “ons bou” in their speeches. There are hon. members in the House who will remember that the old UP youth had as its slogan for many years the slogan “ons bou”. [Interjections.] It is therefore very interesting to see that the latter-day “verligtes” are now speaking along those same lines. I must say I find it highly encouraging. I do not wish to antagonize the hon. member for Hercules unnecessary because he spoke about a matter which lies close to my heart and about which I also intend to make a plea to the hon. the Minister. I am referring to the facilities for gifted children. If one looks at the sums we provide in terms of this Vote, one finds that average education is well catered for and that handicapped children of all types are well catered for. There is, however, one glaring omission here and that is what we are doing for our gifted children in this country. I would like to highlight that today as one of my points.

If one looks at the situation of gifted children, one realizes very quickly that they can go beyond the point of being gifted children and become problem children if they are educated under a system which does not challenge them, does not draw out their real talents and instead subjects them to a system of education aimed at the average person only. They are never challenged and encouraged and they do not give of their best. Unfortunately the system we have today does not bring out the best in these over-talented youngsters. They coast along and are never really extended. To my mind, this is a very sad waste of talent. I believe that the hon. the Minister will be doing the country a great favour if he looks at the problem along the lines of doing more to help these young people to achieve more, to make them strive harder and, of course, to ensure that they ultimately make a bigger contribution to the future of the country. When I say this, I want to make it clear to the hon. the Minister that I am not suggesting that all children should not be encouraged to develop to the utmost of their capabilities. But we are considering a special group here and I want to make a special plea for those children. Why should they receive special attention? There will be those who will disagree with the suggestion entirely and, to support their arguments, they will point to the obvious problems involved. What are these problems? It is obvious that if one takes a youngster and tells him: “Right Johnny, you are the brightest button in the bunch; we are going to give you all the opportunities …” one has lost before one has started. That child will get bigheaded because he has been taken out amongst his classmates, out of the context of his class and he will be over-aware of his giftedness, something which will not necessarily cause him to give his best. What we should perhaps be looking for in this regard is a more subtle approach where these children are not removed from the environment of their classmates and made an example to be sneered at perhaps. The gifted child could, under those circumstances, well turn into a young “Dennis the menace …”

Or a Dennis Worrall.

I was not referring to the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens when I said “Dennis the menace”. I do believe that these children should not be pushed ostentatiously to the head of the queue of opportunity, but that they should be kept in the company of their classmates so that their giftedness is not drawn attention to to any great extent. Some suggestions which the hon. Minister might be prepared to consider, is that gifted children could be grouped into special classes. Under our present educational system it is nothing unusual, in a class of 30 children, for some to go off to do one subject while a certain number stay behind to do another subject. If one were to group the gifted children into a single class in this way, in a certain form, it would not be obvious that they are receiving tuition of a different nature. The subjects that they are taught could be given an innocuous sounding title and their classmates need not be aware of the fact that they are receiving anything but standard tuition. This is one possibility.

I should also like to raise another possibility. We are living in an age where many children at school are given projects to do to encourage them to read and do research during school time and also in their own time. This is another opportunity for gifted children to be given projects of a more complex and advanced nature, in this way encouraging them to be more inquiring and to bring out their hidden talents. This type of approach will lessen any over-awareness of giftedness or the lack of it.

I am aware of the fact that a suggestion such as this could give rise to more of a load on certain teachers. I believe some of the more gifted teachers as well as ordinary teachers will rise to this challenge of bringing out the extra potential in whichever children they can. However, we cannot expect the teachers to shoulder this responsibility alone, because most of them are already carrying a heavy workload. We are fully aware of this, but they may well wish to participate during or after school hours, and we could well leave this to their own discretion.

Are there any other avenues which are open to us? I believe that there are. I believe that certain of these gifted children could be given extra lessons after school by school teachers or other suitably qualified people. These people could work on a paid basis. We could also utilize, to a larger degree than we are doing, the services, experience and willingness of the societies for gifted children. We know these societies are in existence in some of the provinces of the Republic and I believe that we should be encouraging these societies to continue their work.

At the moment it would appear that the educational authorities—I am now referring to provincial authorities—do not have much co-ordination or contact with these societies, and I believe this is a pity. If the hon. the Minister could request the provincial administrations to liaise more closely and utilize the undoubted talents of the people in these committees and societies for gifted children, it would be a very useful interim measure and help us to gauge to what extent these societies are able to help in this regard. I call it “an interim measure” because I believe the hon. the Minister and his advisers could well give thought to a longer-term plan whereby something more definite, than using these volunteers, could be incorporated into the system. We in this party believe that the present system is too narrow. There is not sufficient flexibility in the system as it is today to allow of use being made of the greater potential of gifted children, so I would plead for the greater use of these societies wherever possible. The volunteers from these societies include not only parents of gifted children, who obviously have a family interest, but also include university personnel, child psychologists, paediatricians and many other talented and experienced people who have a lot to offer and whose services could well be made use of. If the hon. the Minister accepts that this is desirable in principle, I would leave the matter there and will not advance any further details. I think the important thing is that the hon. the Minister should accept the principle, because we are living in the days of the brain-drain. I am not going to go into the reasons for this brain-drain, but we are aware of the fact that South Africa is losing top professional people in all professions today. For this reason I think we should be looking very much harder at the brain-train so that we could replace the brain-drain with a more efficient brain-train. [Interjections.] In this way we could lay the ground to replace, at the earliest possible opportunity, the losses which we are suffering.

The second issue I would like to raise briefly, is the question of television. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Berea will excuse me if I do not react to his arguments. I think it is a matter for the hon. the Minister to reply to. I just want to add that we should not be too sensitive about the so-called talented child. In the whole process we should not lose sight of the fact that the real leader comes from the middle group of balanced people. I am not alleging that the talented group are unbalanced people. Our broad education policy may not leave this broad group behind in the process of our endeavours to instruct the extraordinarily talented pupil.

Now I should like to mention three matters to the hon. the Minister which, in my view, intimately affect the teacher. It is known that a student studying on a bursary, has to enter into an agreement with the Education Department in the service of which he is ultimately going to teach, to remain in the service of that department for a period equivalent to the number of years for which he was in receipt of the bursary. From time to time, one encounters cases of a teacher being transferred from one department to another. It is true that the education departments are prepared to take over the bursaries, but the position is also that this transfer of bursaries can only take place if the teacher can advance good reasons for his accepting a position with another education department. As an example, I want to refer to a teacher who has received a bursary from the Transvaal Education Department, and who obtains an appointment from the Cape Education Department. That teacher does not have the assurance that the Cape Education Department will take over his bursary. Now I ask myself whether an arrangement cannot be made in terms of which the teacher will automatically be assured in a case such as this that his bursary will be taken over by the new department whose service he enters.

If we want to afford education enhanced professional status in practice, the teacher ought to be placed in a position to practise his profession where he can do so. The argument may be advanced that the slack economic times in which we are living possibly do not permit of such an arrangement, but I just want to stress that the money involved in a transfer of this kind, has already been spent. It is not new expenditure that is incurred. It merely amounts to a transfer from one department to another. My plea to the hon. the Minister is that we should have a system in this regard in terms of which the teacher with obligations in respect of a bursary, may move freely from one education department to another. I believe that the conditions under which these appointments are made, must be complied with, but without restricting the bursary obligation to a particular education department. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to look into this matter.

Another matter which affects education, is the question of uniform conditions of service. The various education departments are in close touch with one another, but in spite of that there are not completely uniform conditions of service for teachers as yet. Time and again differences emerge and there are certain aspects of service conditions which differ from department to department. I also believe that uniform conditions of service would ensure that one would have a free and natural movement of teachers between the various education departments. I believe that education would benefit from that, because this would give rise to healthy competition.

In the third place, I want to refer to the possibility of introducing a service code for teachers, a service code in which all service conditions can be set out. I believe that this would ensure that teachers would be more au fait with the service conditions and that all possible misunderstanding which might arise as a result of the differences in the service conditions of the various departments, might possibly be eliminated by such a service code. I believe that the introduction of such a service code for teachers would have the effect that teachers would have the effect that teachers would not have to worry about their service conditions if they intend taking up a position in another education department.

In the time at my disposal, I should also like to deal with a very important task of the department, and that is the task of advancing culture. Before one talks about the advancement of culture, it is perhaps a good thing to take a thorough look at the word “culture”. One must reflect on what one understands culture to mean, and when I talk about culture, I am not talking only of the finer manifestations of the human spirit, which is almost generally accepted as being culture; but to me, culture is far more than that. God is the Creator of nature and man is his creature. The creature is the creator of culture. And man also has his instruction to promote his culture. I am referring to Genesis 1, verse 28, in which this is stated very clearly. Therefore, that which man accomplishes to protect and promote his civilization, is, in my opinion, culture. Culture, therefore, is as wide as the human spirit. In our country we find ourselves in the fortunate position of having numerous voluntary organizations and thousands of families that are carrying out this instruction of the Creator. It is a good thing that these many cultural organizations which exist for men, women and the youth, all help to keep our people anchored to the conservative values— because truly, in these times in which we are living, with its rapid changes in all fields, the position is that man is in danger of becoming detached from that to which he ought to cling. In these times, man must see to it that he is better equipped mentally, spiritually and physically so as to enable him to resist the onslaughts from within and from without which are threatening to uproot him. Education and guidance have become essential to the adult in our time, because education and guidance must make of him a virtuous and useful person of culture a sensible parent, an efficient worker and a responsible citizen of his country. Because culture is of the people, the State naturally does not engage in culture. That is the privilege of the voluntary organizations to which I have referred. It is not necessary for the State to establish cultural organizations, but it is indeed the duty of the State in these times of specialization, to make services available to its people, services of a co-ordinating, advisory and stimulating nature. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, as I inhend saying something about the universities, I shall not elaborate on the interesting ideas of the hon. member for De Aar. It is my privilege to live in a university town. I can give hon. members the assurance that it is indeed a great privilege. It is true that it is not due to the student population of my university that I am a member of this House at the moment. But it is a fact that as a result of their presence in Grahamstown, politics in that town is very interesting and there are many opportunities really to discuss politics. It has, in fact, always been a challenge to me to cross swords with students about politics on suitable occasions. We find that more and more of those students are beginning to understand and support our policies. So I can confirm what the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North said in the House in a previous debate, that we are getting more and more support from the young people and that the young people are really on our side.

I concede that at our political meetings and other gatherings, things were somewhat difficult at times, precisely because of the presence of students. On the whole, however, they have been very fair. If problems did therefore emerge here and there, it was largely due to the conduct of certain staff members. Often these staff members were or are not even South Africans.

However, I do not want to say any more about that now. It is my privilege to have the closest liaison with Rhodes University. Therefore I am very pleased to have the opportunity of participating in this debate. One of the primary functions of a university is to reveal new knowledge by means of investigation and research. I therefore want to say a little more about research. Under research, we can understand that broad range of intellectual activities which go to help man in the development of his ability to understand, to evaluate and to modify his world and his experiences. I am not going to say anything about the necessity of research. It is possible that another hon. member on this side of the House will elaborate on that. I do think, though, that we are all agreed that research is essential, especially in the times in which we live.

But as it is the case with all things, research requires money—indeed, a lot of money. The State recognizes the function of the university to undertake research. That is why the State also lays down special formulae in connection with the financing of the universities. Nevertheless, I maintain that consideration should be given to the advisability of adapting the amount granted as an incentive for research. I think the present amount represents 4% of component A in the financing formula for universities. I believe that it would be much more advisable and also much more fair if this percentage were to be raised to, say, 10%. By far the major part of the total amount which the State makes available for research is canalized by the various research councils. That is a good thing. I can understand the policy and the motivation behind that. In particular, it ensures effective co-ordination.

Now I want to express a word of warning in this connection. It must be seen to that these councils do not create too many posts purely for research, because that could cause people who do not want to be “burdened” with teaching to be appointed to these research posts, with the result that lecturing as such might suffer. I may be wrong, but I understand that at the moment there is precisely such an unfavourable trend in the field of mathematics. I feel that there should always be a healthy interaction and balance between teaching on the one hand and research on the other hand.

One of the vital aids to research is naturally the library. I therefore want to suggest that the Government should seriously consider doing away with excise duties on imported books which are obviously only intended for use in training and research, such as highly technical mathematics text-books.

The private sector is indeed playing a major and active role in the financing of research at universities, but, as one can understand, a particular industry or sector will want to prescribe in what direction research must be done. Nevertheless I think that more can be done in that connection. The private sector is too much inclined still to regard the university as the ivory tower in which there is a bunch of people with woolly ideas without the ability to apply them in practice. I am of the opinion that the Government, and especially this department with its numerous resources, can possibly do more to make the private sector aware of the co-operation which ought to exist between the private sector and the universities, and so to create more possibilities for research. Rhodes University, to which I have already referred, recently made an attempt to do that by means of a conference. The theme of the conference was “Away from the Ivory Tower”, but unfortunately there was not much support on the part of the private sector and this very commendable conference had to be scrapped. If more motivation and regular information could be passed on to the private sector to indicate to what extent they can liaise with the universities, it would be a very good thing.

Because of the high cost of research, an effort must be made to eliminate duplication as far as possible, and there should rather be specialization by particular universities in particular fields as far as possible. Research should also be undertaken at those places where it fits in best. People who want to do research into mining, for example, should do so in the Transvaal and not in the Cape. In the same way, people who want to do research about fish, should do it by the sea and not in the Transvaal.

That, Sir, brings me to another subject which has already been referred to in this House. Nevertheless, I want to touch on it again. I am referring to the establishment of a second veterinary faculty in the southern part of our country, where research can be done and instruction can be given. I realize that it has been decided to expand Onderstepoort at this stage. However, I want to point out that the arguments for the ultimate establishment of a second veterinary faculty are so strong and so convincing that a second faculty will indeed have to be established sooner or later. I want to add that I feel it should rather be sooner than later, and that the planning in that connection should begin even now. When it comes, it must, in view of the many reasons which I have already mentioned, be established in Grahamstown, at Rhodes University. In accordance with the arguments which I have just mentioned, I want to point out that in the Eastern Cape, where Rhodes University is situated, there are unlimited sources of clinical and research material in this connection, as a result of the several large herds of livestock there. One cannot think of a branch of animal husbandry which is not found in the Eastern Cape, including many stud herds of outstanding quality. Apart from the ordinary animal husbandry, there are also large numbers of game of different species. There is also a great variety of flora in that part of the country. Unfortunately there is also a great variety of animal diseases, but for the purposes of veterinary studies, that is of course ideal. These animal diseases are caused by plants or by external or internal parasites. Already there are several strong departments to liaise with at Rhodes University, such as the Departments of Zoology, Ichthyology, Pharmacology, etc. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Albany has been talking about a new veterinary faculty, and I must say it is a matter that has elicited considerable interest and discussion in the farming community for a long time. I must disappoint the hon. member for Albany, however, because I can tell him, on absolutely unassailable grounds, that when the new faculty of veterinary science is introduced, it is going to be introduced at the University of Pietermaritzburg.

Hear, hear!

I do hate to disappoint him. The hon. member for Berea dealt with the gifted child. I just want to point out that this party of ours is a very talented party because we can talk about the gifted child and also, as I now intend to do, about the mentally retarded child.

I must ask the hon. the Minister to tell me where in the budget of his department— because I have been looking for it—there is an amount of money set aside for the training centre at the Umgeni Waterfall Institution. I have taken a very close interest in this institution, and I should like to thank the hon. the Minister for putting me onto the board there to take part in the activities of the training centre. I have said before, in another debate in this House, that people who have never experienced the sort of problems those children have, can have absolutely no idea of the struggle that one has to reach out to minds that are darkened as a result of circumstances completely beyond their control. It is no fault of theirs that they find themselves in a sort of twilight world.

[Inaudible.]

No. The hon. the Minister and his department have reached out to the minds of these people to try to bring them out from the sort of society they live in, a society which is incredibly limited. I think they deserve full marks for even believing it is possible to take that sort of child and bring him out of the environment in which he lives in an endeavour to show him something and to train him. I am absolutely amazed at the kind of progress that has been made in the space of the year or so that this centre has been operating. One can only stand and wonder at the efforts that have been made and the amount of progress achieved by the people in that institution. Obviously there are many problems because this is a new endeavour on the part of the hon. the Minister and his department. It is indeed a most praiseworthy effort.

The problem of staffing is however, I think, the greatest problem of all because this is no ordinary teaching assignment. Teachers, by and large, are very dedicated in their profession, but when one goes into an institution like this one is going far beyond the bounds of normal dedication. One is then entering those realms of the profession that demand everything one has, all the love that one can possibly muster to see oneself through a day in the company of children of this nature. Our board has had to advertise for staff.

We have, for example, advertised on various occasions for a headmaster. One receives replies and applications, but once one has explained to the people what the nature of the institution is, and what kind of a training centre it is that we have there, they shy away. We have never yet had an applicant who came from an interview once he had heard of the nature of the institution. The incentive, as I understand it, is one or two extra notices and a consequent slight increase in the standing of the person concerned, but it has not proved to be adequate. I therefore wonder whether that training centre will be able to continue without some help from the hon. the Minister in finding staff to keep it going. At the moment it is operating with three teachers who have almost volunteered to come and take part in the activities there. I think the hon. the Minister must regard this as one of the most serious problems he has.

There are, however, other problems. I believe that what is really required, in a situation like this, is an inter-departmental committee which can keep an eye on the situation because there is available, at Umgeni, another building which could provide three very spacious and comfortable classrooms. What is required is that people from the Department of Public Works should do these buildings up. They are old buildings which were formerly part of the mental hospital for non-Whites which was there. Those buildings could be done up very easily and cheaply and they could serve an excellent purpose. That would have the advantage of removing the training centre from the front of the institution, where the children regularly have to cross the road, and placing it in a quiet comer of the institution’s grounds where they would be very well catered for and where they would have a chance to play outside and so on. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to consider coming to some arrangement, even if it is an ad hoc arrangement, with the other departments concerned.

I wish to take the matter one step further. There are three classes in the training centre catering for some forty children. Such a child is being taken out of an environment that is totally negative. There is nothing in that environment for a child whose mind one is trying to lift out of the darkness in which it is. The hon. the Minister and his department are opening up to those children an entirely new vision of life. The problem is that, after they have been taken out of that darkness and have been given half a day’s training in that centre, they are simply put back into the environment from which they were taken. I cannot believe that, where this is of a kind of stop-go nature, it can lead to any permanent benefits for those children despite the effort and money being spent by the Minister and his department to train those children and to give them a new outlook on life and new ideas. After it has been made apparent to them that they have minds they can use, they are put back into a place that is mindless by definition. I wonder whether it is not desirable to achieve some co-ordination. I hope I shall have an opportunity of talking to the hon. the Minister of Health about this. Perhaps a special part of that institution can be set aside where those children who have had the benefit of training can go so that they can be among others who have reached the same level and do not have to go back to the other place which, I believe, can lead to many problems. Indeed, when school closes, one has to force them to go back across the road to the institution from which they have been taken.

Then there is the question of further development. What is the point of taking a child out of that environment and training him if, when he has reached a certain age, he is simply dumped back into that environment? What is then the investment the hon. the Minister is making? I believe it is necessary to have some arrangement or other with the Department of Labour or some such body so that, when a child has had the advantage of the training the hon. the Minister provides, there can be a continuation. Otherwise a child, who is 10 years of age, 11 years of age or whatever the case may be, after being there for perhaps 10 years and having been given the advantage of everything the hon. the Minister offers, will simply be dumped back into the environment from which he came. This is absolutely insupportable. In fact, one will have done that child positive harm because, after one has shown that child something else, he will be taken back to where he was before whereas, if that had not happened, he would have stayed there in the first place and have had no realization of the position in which he later finds himself.

I notice that the amount provided by the department for mentally retarded children and institutions like Sunfield Home and others has been increased from R2,5 million to R3,3 million. For that one can only be very grateful indeed. However, I want to ask the hon. the Minister to give his attention to the question I have raised—and there must be other institutions of the same nature as Umgeni where training centres are being established. I want to summarize the points I raised. As regards staff, the present incentive offered is not enough and we are not getting the staff we require at that training centre. If the hon. the Minister can give us an idea of how he intends to bridge that gap, I would be very grateful indeed. Then there is the question of what will happen to those people once they have completed their training in terms of their age and have to go into something else. Finally, there is the question of a special ward or some such thing. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Mooi River spoke about a matter which I feel is merely a local problem in his constituency. The way he put this case, I feel that we all have sympathy with him. However, the way I know the hon. the Minister, I believe that he will give him a satisfactory reply and that he will help him to solve that problem.

I want to talk about a completely different aspect of the activities of this department, viz. the television and radio service. I want to begin by referring to the advertising service which was introduced at the beginning of this year. I think we all agree that as far as the advertisements are concerned, things are going very well and they are being presented judiciously. However, there is one type of advertisement which I should like to express a few ideas about and I think the SABC will have to reconsider it. I am talking about liquor advertisements on television. I want to say at once that I am not “narrow-minded” or prudish. I also enjoy a beer or some other drink now and again, but I do so in a very moderate way. The fact of the matter, however, is that no one can argue away the fact that the abuse of alcohol is dangerous. It is no use arguing about it. We have no argument against it because it has been proved scientifically over and over again. However, I think that we shall have to think about it very carefully.

If we look at statistics about the amounts which were spent on food and drink last year, it appears that during 1977, an amount of R1 415 million was spent on meat; R1 211 million on maize and wheat products; R936 million on fruit and vegetables; and R1 357 million on alcoholic beverages. When we look at these figures, everyone will agree with me that they are alarming, especially if I add that there has been an increase of 97% in the purchase of meat during the past five years, while the increase in alcoholic beverages has been 139%. If this is going to be the pattern of expenditure, I believe that a very dark future may await us. It is particularly worrying that the advertisements on television are to a large extent associated with sport. When we look at those advertisements for beer and wine, the impression is always being created that it is essential for those things to be part of sport and recreation.

The tragedy is that thousands of rands are being spent by liquor companies in sponsoring rugby at the moment—I think it is as much as R1 million or even R2 million. I wonder if those liquor companies see their salvation in those rugby players. Is the idea that those advertisements for liquor should coincide with sporting events? If one looks at advertisements on television on Saturday afternoon, they do coincide and they are shown at the very time when most sport programmes are broadcast. We are building our future and giving attention to our young people, because this is what we have always considered the most valuable possession of a nation because we see our future in those young people. It is those very young people who participate in sport, and that is why it is those people who are perhaps the most susceptible to that type of advertisement which appears on television. That is why I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to reflect on this type of advertisement if we are serious about building a healthy youth.

While I am on the subject of television, I want to raise another aspect in this regard. We are always hearing the Opposition complain that the NP is being favoured as regards television and radio broadcasts. [Interjections.]

You are going to spoil a good speech!

If hon. members will give me a chance, they will not have to say any more about it tonight. The fact is that the hon. Ministers are the ones who are often involved in newsworthy events. Ministers are often invited even to open international symposiums. Hon. members must tell me now who invites those Ministers. Is it not perhaps those organizations? It is not the SABC that invites them to open those symposiums; it is the bodies which arrange those symposiums and large meetings which invite the Ministers and this usually makes the occasions newsworthy. I want hon. members to mention one occasion where any one of the Ministers who has taken part in such an event has promoted the cause of the NP. Hon. members know this has never happened. They have promoted the cause of South Africa every time. [Interjections.] They have promoted the cause of South Africa every time, never the cause of the NP. Hon. members over there must tell me now what organizations ever invite their leaders to appear in this regard.

Boy Scouts.

What foreign organizations ever ask their leaders to appear? Which of their leaders ever say anything newsworthy? When organizations which are hostile to South Africa invite them to address them …

What about the NP?

I shall come to that in a moment. I am referring to the PFP in particular and I want to ask them whether they are prepared to allow the speeches they make and the interviews they conduct abroad to be broadcast on S.A. television. Are they prepared to let S.A. television broadcast what the hon. member for Houghton said last year when she welcomed outside pressure to bring about change in South Africa? Do they want the hon. member for Houghton’s statement in Australia, where she asked for majority rule which would eventually lead to “one man, one vote”, to be broadcast here? They have a choice and I am sure that if they ask for the hon. member for Houghton’s interview in Australia to be broadcast here, the hon. the Minister would consider it very favourably and give them the opportunity.

Is that a promise?

What was the position in connection with television broadcasts during the election last year? As far as news about the election of 30 November 1977 was concerned, the NP received 39% of the time. [Interjections.] I am now referring to broadcasts which concerned the election. [Interjections.] Hon. members will have the opportunity to stand up and prove the contrary, but they must give me a chance now to furnish those statistics. Thirty-nine per cent of the time was allocated to the NP …

That is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is it permissible for the hon. member to say that I am misrepresenting the facts if they are official facts provided by the SABC?

The hon. member may continue. [Interjections.]

The statistics of the SABC indicate that the Opposition parties together received 61% of the time. The PFP had 24%; the NRP 24%; the S.A.P. 5% and the HNP 8%. What are they complaining about? Precisely the same holds good as far as radio is concerned. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I was actually waiting for you to give the hon. member for Boksburg a little injury time because I expected him to ask for the Opposition parties to be allocated more time on television and radio. You know, Mr. Chairman, there is practically no Opposition here in the House and I think that if the Opposition had had more time on television during the previous election … [Interjections.] … then half of them would not have been here either. The Opposition has destroyed itself and I think they must reconsider their attitude towards extra time on television, because if they make the same impression on television as they did last year during the election, they will destroy themselves totally, because they cut a poor figure on television. [Interjections.]

When one talks about education, it is surely fitting to refer to the thousands of men and women who have been involved in the education and teaching of our children throughout our history. We are grateful—previous speakers have also referred to this—for the new salary structure for our teachers. This has been a great service to the country and to the teachers in particular. One can speak with great appreciation about the contribution which the teachers have made to the educational process over the years. It is a great pleasure to see the modern aids our schools are equipped with these days. These aids have been acquired in order to be able to keep up with development so that the young person who has to enter life and play his part in the professional world, the business world and everywhere else in the community, is well equipped to be a full-fledged, productive person. As science and technology develop, it will always be necessary to take this progress into account so that we can ensure that we are not left behind.

However, this has not always been the case. Teaching has gone through its own process of development in time. There were times when the teacher had to do his work in very difficult circumstances. I am thinking in particular of the circumstances in which teachers worked at farm schools. The hon. member for Standerton referred to this earlier this afternoon. They had to do their work without the aids which the present-day teacher has. Apart from the reading book and a few other handbooks, the switch was the only aid which they had at their disposal. By the standards of those days, they gave the children an excellent education and those teachers produced great men in the history of our nation. Our nation and our history was built from those schools.

I should like to pay tribute to the memory of the teachers of that time. However, I am thinking in particular of the teachers of those days who are still living today. I want to advocate an improvement in pensions for those retired teachers. A great deal has already been said about this matter in the House, but I feel compelled to plead once again that these people should be cared for. It is true that when one is employed and joins a pension scheme to which one makes a certain contribution, one is going to draw certain benefits from it. However, we all know that we are living in a time of inflation and that the civil pensioners who retired 20 years or more ago simply cannot keep up any longer and cannot live on the pensions which they receive. One could easily argue that these people draw enough benefits in relation to their contributions. However, such an argument does not hold water. We have reached a stage now where we have to take a serious look at the situation in which those pensioners find themselves. They simply cannot keep up any longer. We are always talking about narrowing the wage gap, but I want to assure hon. members that the gap between the pensions of pensioners who retired 20 years and more ago and the pensions of people who retire now is constantly increasing. I think the hon. the Minister could have a talk with the hon. the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions and they might be able to design a structure in terms of which this problem may be solved. We cannot allow the pensioners to go under simply because we cannot break away from existing structures. These people made their contributions in the years when they still had the physical strength and now they can do no more. Must we now allow them gradually to bleed to death, financially speaking? I am grateful for the provision which the hon. the Minister made in the budget for the increase of pensions by 5% and a minimum of R15, but in many cases this is not even equal to a social pension yet. This is a matter which requires serious attention. I trust that the hon. the Minister will give a sympathetic hearing to these requests.

On Monday, the Vote of the hon. the Minister of Defence was discussed. During the discussions we heard a great deal about our military preparedness. It was striking to see how unanimous the speakers on both sides of the House were. From this, it was very clear to me that hon. members who participated in the debate are deeply under the impression of the threats facing our country. To come back to this Vote, I want to tell hon. members that if there is a sphere in which unity is required, especially in the times in which we are living, it is education.

Education forms the foundation for preparedness in every sphere of life, whether it be the spiritual or the military sphere. If there is something wrong with education, things will go wrong in every other sphere. A serious onslaught is being made on our nation in our time. We are fighting for the survival of everyone in our country. We are fighting for our survival because we have something to fight for. In our struggle, however, there are so many things to which we do not have the answers yet and to which we will have to find the answers. There are so many people who want to give us answers and offer us solutions to our problems, but so many of those solutions which are being offered to us amount to a surrender to our enemies, a surrender which will lead to the destruction of the identity of everyone in our country. In particular, it will also lead to the destruction of the people on whose behalf those advisers are supposedly acting. The irony of the matter is that the measures through which the Government intends to ensure our own survival are equally important to every group within the borders of our country. That is why our educational institutions can make a tremendous contribution by doing research which may produce answers to our problems. I definitely do not mean that academic answers should rule politics. Through research, however, answers may be found to questions to which it is very dangerous to reply without careful thought.

Mr. Chairman, it is not for nothing that the watchword in this debate is “we are building for the future”. The instruments for this purpose are of course the schools, the pre-primary, primary and secondary, the colleges and the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education, the universities and the news media including the radio and television services. There is no doubt at all in my mind that these instruments are indeed ready to be used with efficiency—as I think also emerged from this debate this afternoon—to create a new dispensation within all contexts of life in South Africa, and a fine and secure future for everyone, all under the merciful hand of Almighty God, because the education which is being referred to here has always and must always—let there be no doubt at all about this—answer to the watchword of Christian National.

There is your answer.

That is in truth the answer. I just want to say in passing—and I do so with a heavy heart because I do not want to make a political debate of this matter this afternoon—that the sharp contrast when it comes to positive matters which emerged in this Committee between the Official Opposition and the other hon. members of the Opposition and this side of the House has seldom been so sharply depicted as it was this afternoon after the two hon. members of the Official Opposition participated in this debate. I shall leave it at that now. I am not going to aggravate anyone any further in this connection this afternoon.

It was not fortuitous that speaker after speaker used the word “preparedness” (weerbaarheid) in connection with the theme “we are building our future”. Even the chairman of the national education group of the Official Opposition, the hon. member for Johannesburg North, asked what we on this side of the House were doing in respect of “preparedness” for all our children by means of the instruments involved here. Onslaughts from the various quarters which are aimed at stirring up unrest and sowing uncertainty are a threat to our country and our people, and we do not underestimate those threats. They are of a physical as well as spiritual nature. The hon. member was right in saying that as far as physical preparedness was concerned, the hon. the Minister of Defence had furnished a clear reply, and he also referred with appreciation to the reply which the hon. the Minister of Finance had given in respect of economic preparedness. We appreciate that. What we are now dealing with, in the first place, is spiritual preparedness. It is true that the child and the youth are today being unceasingly confronted with communistic, socialistic and other dogmas.

Hon. members in the Official Opposition benches should take greater cognizance of this, and then they themselves will find the answers to the problems with which they so readily confront this side of the House far more easily, they will be a more valuable Opposition and they will be able to make a very important contribution in this country under the present circumstances. In this regard they can take the other Opposition parties in file House as an example. We are experiencing an onslaught by foreign ideologies along the entire national front. Moreover, there are complaints about deterioration in the family life of our people, their school life, their business life, their married life and in many other facets of our national economy. I am being asked to reply on preparedness. To counteract these onslaughts there must in my opinion be physical preparedness. However there must also be preparedness in regard to our traditions, and this includes our approach to authority, language, the family, the church and religion. Our people—again I want to allow the emphasis to fall on the youth of our nation in particular—must be permeated with the spiritual heritage of our people and our country which, I reiterate, is founded on a Christian-National outlook on life. If that is indoctrination, I make no apology for associating myself repeatedly with the hon. member for Virginia when he discusses this matter. As he states it, it is correct. We have no intention whatsoever of moving away from that foundation stone. God forbid that we do this.

With this view in mind, and conscious of the influence that is being brought to bear on us and the onslaughts which are being made against us, we are making deliberate attempts to make our youth prepared. We are not ashamed to admit this. I am saying this loud and clear, to the hon. members of the Official Opposition as well. I want them to hear this, and I also want the outside world to hear this. I am not ashamed to admit that we are deliberately trying to make the youth of our nation prepared. We are doing so in every possible way; in all our schools and at all our universities. To achieve this, we are making use of every possible instrument, because we are in the process of building. In this way, for example, a youth preparedness programme has been introduced at our schools. However, it is not only the task of the school to promote youth preparedness, but also the task of the family, the Church and the State. At the same time it is the task of the entire community, with all its volunteer organizations. Is it too much to ask that the Official Opposition should also make a positive contribution in this respect?

I know of only one or two hon. members of the Official Opposition who adopt a positive attitude in this respect. I know that I could be embarrassing him, but I am nevertheless going to mention the name of one of these two people. It is the hon. member for Yeoville. On various occasions he has already adopted a positive attitude in this respect. That is something for which we are grateful. We shall wait and see with interest whose influence in this regard is decisive among hon. members of the Official Opposition.

It is very interesting to consider the Afrikaans word “weerbaarheid”. In the same way it is also very interesting to consider the word “oorlewing”. This is a word which we hear being used a great deal these days. Have hon. members perhaps looked up the meaning of the word “oorlewing” in a dictionary yet? According to the dictionary “oorlewing”—I am referring the HAT; I looked it up last night—means “om nie onder te gaan nie; om te bly lewe”. Truly, is that asking too much of a person? Does one, or does a nation, really not have the right to speak of survival in the ordinary meaning in which it occurs in the dictionary, not only in the meaning of “om voort te bestaan”, but also in the meaning of “om nie onder te gaan nie”?

When we consider the word “weerbaarheid”, it is wonderful to take cognizance of its various connotations. The Sanskrit word “umote” means “omhul” or “omsluit” (to enclose, hem in). It means that the child must be enclosed in loving acceptance, i.e. the educator should in effect make room in his life for the child in which the child will feel safe and enclosed. That is my reply to the Official Opposition that has asked me what we are doing in regard to the preparedness of our children in these times. According to the Greek word “emein”, “weerbaarheid” means to preserve and to protect until the pupil can do this for himself. How wonderful this is! This protection does not mean “overprotection”. It is in fact the case that when a person knows that there is a snake in the bush on the side of the path along which the child will pass, it does not mean that he should not use that path at all. It does mean that he should follow that path forewarned and forearmed and prepared for any emergency. That is what we are trying to achieve in our youth preparedness programme.

He must take a kierie along!

Yes, he must take a kierie. According to the Dutch word “weren”, “weerbaarheid” means “teenstand bied, verdedig, verskans” (offer resistance, defend, entrench). In other words, the child must be helped so that he is to an increasing extent able to offer resistance independently. Derived from another Greek word “erusthou”, “weerbaarheid” means to preserve or to save. In the pedagogic situation this means to preserve that which has served as a guideline for the civilization in which the child finds himself. I imagine that language such as this is somewhat lost on the hon. Opposition.

Derived from the old Irish word “ferenn”, “weerbaarheid” means “gegordel, gordel, omgord” (girded, girdle or girded about). This means that the child should hold his own in the modern technological society with all its attendant dangers and problems, that the youth should be helped to gird themselves about with the truth as it manifests itself in the Christian-National conception of life.

“Weerbaarheid”, derived from the Old Norse word “vara”, means that one must observe or be observant, and it is related to wakefulness to and observingness of whatever constitutes a threat. From these various meanings of the word “weerbaarheid”, I hope I have begun to tell hon. members opposite what is happening in South Africa in our schools and all our institutions. That is also what is happening in the SABC and on television.

Finally, the words “weerbaarheid” are used with the prepositions “teen” or “teë”. That implies that just to be wakeful or observant is not enough; there must also be resistance to or an exertion against giving in. These are all things we should like to teach our children in South Africa.

Youth preparedness must have as its object to develop the ability of each young person in such a way that he can realize his own given preparedness to the optimum and meaningfully. Therefore youth preparedness is not something which arises through contact with a magic wand or the gabbling of magic incantations. On the contrary. It is a long and difficult involvement, of adults who are correctly orientated, with children. Because it has to be realized by the child, it is also concerned with the child’s willingness to become prepared for the sake of his own life, preservation and survival. In this sense, therefore, youth preparedness should be seen as a matter of national interest, in which each individual is involved and for which each organization which is able to make a contribution, should accept co-responsibility.

Against this background, Sir, we have reintroduced cadet training for boys inn our schools for example. This institution is making a very wonderful contribution. There are various other steps as well which were taken in regard to youth preparedness at our schools. The youth preparedness programme therefore makes provision for spiritual preparedness, for preparedness in respect of first-aid and fire-fighting, and for the initial steps towards military preparedness. A comprehensive school cadet system has therefore been introduced in co-operation with the Department of Defence and it is already making an important contribution. We have land service camps which instill a love of the soil and we have youth leadership camps for the development of leaders, which promote loyalty to what is their own. We are doing all these things in our schools to promote preparedness in that way. The system of differentiated education meets the need of every child according to his aptitude, his interest and his ability. Provision is being made for the training of the handicapped. Provision is being made for the mentally handicapped. In other words, the aim is to give all White children the highest possible educational development so that we can in this way have a prepared and resilient nation. What is involved here is of course the education of White children; let there be no doubt about that. This basic school training is followed by a comprehensive system of technical and tertiary education. Therefore, I am telling hon. members that these matters rest on a firm foundation; when we say that we are building for the future, it is not mere hollow words we are uttering. It is impossible to go into detail on what is being done inside the schools, but the entire system in South Africa is aimed at making our young men and women prepared. We are not preparing our children for war, but to adapt themselves to the circumstances of the times in which there is only one thing they have to do, and that is not to lose, but to win. Because this preparedness is there, I repeat that, under the merciful hand of God, we are not only building, but we as a nation will also be victorious.

Since I have now replied to the hon. member for Johannesburg North, I want to make haste to reply to the other speakers who participated in this debate.

In the first place I should like to thank my good friend, the hon. member for Hercules, very sincerely for his contribution and his idea that we are building our future. I also want to thank him for the fact that he referred to me as “Piet Promise”. I am also very grateful that he suggested that the splended nickname of “Piet Positive” also be used. I like them both, as long as the “promise” is kept, as I think it has been in the case of the salary structures in education. The hon. member put questions to me on various matters. I cannot reply to him on all the questions, but I do want to associate myself with him as far as the National Teachers’ Council is concerned. I hope I am speaking on behalf of everyone in this House when I say that we are, in truth, with the teachers, and that we hope the National Teachers’ Council will succeed in its aim of causing the teacher to occupy his rightful place in the hear of the child and the people.

The hon. member put forward a plea for the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. We have a great interest in the CATEs. I have said this before outside the House and I should also like to say it in this House this afternoon: Personally I have no doubt at all that the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education will to an increasing extent make an extremely interesting contribution to the preparedness programme of the nation during the next 25 to 30 years. It is a thing of the future, and one is grateful to see how these CATEs are flourishing.

The hon. member requested that admission to universities be investigated. However, I do not think that an investigation is necessary at this stage. Already there are norms for admission, and these receive constant attention from the Universities Advisory Council and the Committee of University Principals. The hon. member asked us to help to get more students to attend the CATEs. I absolutely endorse that. But our problem is to put this into operation in practice. I am grateful that he mentioned this here, because I hope that that appeal will also be heard outside this House. I can assure him that the matter is receiving special attention from us. The hon. member also had a request in regard to the salaries of cultural officers. These officers received the salary adjustment which all officers received with effect from 1 January 1978, viz. 5%. Of course cultural officers are all ex-teachers, and if they had remained in the teaching profession they would have received far better salaries under this new dispensation. Naturally this matter must receive attention and is indeed receiving attention from my department and from me. We shall take positive steps in regard to this matter, because our cultural officers will return to teaching if we do not give the matter the necessary attention.

The hon. member for Virginia, Mr. Clase, made a very important contribution here. Of course this is what we know him to be capable of. He emphasized that school integration will not do, and that it is not our policy. I am in full agreement with the hon. member. School integration is not the policy of the NP or the Government. It cannot work in South Africa. Schools for individual population groups do not constitute discrimination, the hon. member said. With that, too, I am in full agreement. We need only see what is happening in this regard in America and Great Britain, for example, to realize, as that hon. member said, that it is perfectly natural for population groups to have their own schools and that it is perfectly natural for children to go to such schools. I hope, therefore, that we will not allow this matter to become a political football in South Africa. I also agree with what the hon. member had to say about heresy. “Bless my soul,” with that I agreed most of all!

The hon. member for Durban Central once again—and I am grateful that I can congratulate him on this—made a fine contribution on education. I want to refer first to the question of the top structure. A responsible Opposition is playing an important role in South Africa. There is no doubt at all about that. The hon. member referred to the top structure in education, i.e. inspectors, chief inspectors and deputy directors. I can tell the hon. member that the proposals in regard to the top structure are not proposals that were made in the first instance by the Committee of Heads of Education and the Public Service Commission.

Practical circumstances forced us to accept a top structure with scales where provision is made for a difference of only R300. The hon. member will himself realize that this cannot work. We will give him the assurance that, as soon as it is practical, consideration will be given to the top structure and that the essential adjustments will be effected. But the hon. member must please not deduce from that again that it can happen tomorrow, for there are practical considerations which have to be taken into account. But it will be done as soon as the country’s circumstances allow.

Furthermore, I want to tell the hon. member that the function of recruiting teachers is vested in the provincial authorities. With the new salary structures we have created the right climate for recruitment. In this regard I want to thank the hon. member for Hercules as well as the other hon. members who expressed their appreciation for this. I received numerous letters from teachers and other people associated with education throughout the country who also expressed appreciation for the new salary structures. These are sound structures, and we have in that way created the right climate and laid the right foundations on which the provinces can now continue to build, something which they will most certainly do.

The hon. member also referred to the question of married teachers. This is a very important matter. I want to tell the hon. member that we are very sympathetically disposed towards married women. The role of the woman in education is an extremely important one, and we pay tribute to the woman for the role she has played and is still playing in education. There is no doubt at all that education in South Africa cannot manage without them. We therefore have the greatest sympathy with the married woman. The hon. member need not doubt that. Actually, we have got more than sympathy for them, Helen.

Then do something about it.

We are doing something about it! The question of pensions is the responsibility of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions, in the first place, and we shall take up this matter with the new Minister. The hon. member for Houghton said that we should do something about it Truly, she need not seek for deeds among us, because we are in fact the “doers” and not the talkers. She need have no doubt about that. After all, she knows it herself. As far as the recommendations of the Committee of Heads of Education on married teachers are concerned, I want to tell the hon. member for Durban Central that I do not have all the particulars to be able to furnish him with now, though I should like to do so. Indeed, we are giving special attention to this entire matter. However, I cannot hold out any promises at this stage. Important things have already happened in this regard, for which one feels grateful. Yet I agree with the hon. member that it is a problem which we have to get our teeth into and we are in fact doing so.

All I can tell the hon. member about cooperation between universities and the colleges in the training of teachers is that quite a number of statutory agreements have been concluded. I can therefore state with gratitude that we are making excellent progress in respect of this matter. It is receiving constant attention.

Have all the necessary agreements been concluded in the Transvaal?

Not all of them have been finalized in the Transvaal, but almost all.

It has taken four years already.

They are virtually in the final stage. I think that I have, with that, replied to all the hon. member’s questions.

The hon. member for Gezina was a member of the teaching profession and, as we know him, he made a very positive contribution. He emphasized the involvement of parents. I want to tell him that this is an important principle. It is included in the policy on differentiated education, and has also been promulgated as such. The educational authorities are therefore required—it is not optional—to involve the parents. According to the Director of Education in the Transvaal, every parent is consulted and requested to confirm in writing that the child is able, in the cases in question, to follow the practical course. It is true that problems are being experienced in connection with the practical courses. Problems arose in the Transvaal. But I can tell the hon. member that this entire matter is receiving special attention from all the bodies involved. Further talks on this matter will take place when the bodies concerned are ready to do so. I want to thank the hon. member for his contribution in this regard.

The hon. member for Port Natal made an important contribution. He discussed the matter of subsidies and asked us to investigate it de novo. I want to assure the hon. member that the idea which he expressed was a very interesting one. I have come across it before. Dr. Wassenaar of Sanlam once presented a dissertation on the same subject. The Van Wyk De Vries Commission decided on the present formula after it had made an in-depth study of the question of a formula for the financing of universities. The hon. member will therefore permit me to say that one should treat such new ideas—however attractive they may be—with great circumspection. I want to assure the hon. member that it is an idea which interests me a great deal personally. In fact it so happens that I discussed it the night before last with certain organizations, when I sounded them out on this point. It is an idea which, if it really has the possibilities it seems to have at first glance, must of course be thoroughly investigated. Therefore I shall request the Universities Advisory Council, as soon as possible, to investigate it properly and advise me on it. I shall report back to that hon. member at a later stage.

The hon. member for Rondebosch requested that we should throw open the White universities. That means only one thing, and that is that the present control in respect of universities by the Ministers in question, i.e. the Minister of Education and Training, the Minister of Indian Affairs and the Minister of Coloured Relations should be relinquished and—typical of the Official Opposition—that a free-for-all policy, in which there is no control, should simply be followed, and heaven knows where one will end up with such a policy.

You will still do so in time.

There should be no misunderstanding about this, because we are dealing with important matters here. Naturally the hon. the Prime Minister was absolutely correct when he said what the hon. member quoted, and therefore there is no need for me to emphasize it again.

It is a temporary, verkrampte delaying action.

However, that hon. member should not have any illusions about this Government allowing the character of our universities to be disrupted. This Government will ensure that our White universities remain essentially White universities in character, in practice and in spirit. Not only do we grante the other population groups that same right, we should also like to enable them to do so. Within that framework the hon. the Prime Minister was absolutely correct when he said that the universities had never been closed to other people. He therefore stated it very correctly, and the position will have to remain as it now is, viz. that the other Ministers concerned have to be consulted in regard to the situation to make certain that the character of our universities remains unimpaired. I hope I have given the hon. member an adequate reply on this matter.

The hon. member for Standerton breathed life into the debate when he made a sparkling speech here. He put in a plea for the small school in the country, and asked for an inquiry. I have seldom before complied with such alacrity to a request, and I can therefore tell the hon. member that a request will be made straight away, this very afternoon, for such an investigation to be launched, because the old farm school in the rural areas is something we would like to preserve.

Last year the hon. member for Bellville made a very important contribution on culture. It had wide ramifications. This afternoon the hon. member again made an important contribution on the question of culture in respect of the outside world. I want to give hon. members the assurance that I have a great deal of sympathy for this. I gladly comply with the hon. member’s request. I shall hold talks with the hon. the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the hon. the Minister of Information on this matter, because it is important. The cultural ties in Western Germany are sound, and have not been severed at any stage. It is our task, as the hon. member requested, to give the necessary attention to those ties. I shall try to get an interdepartmental committee appointed. I shall also undertake to approach the hon. the Minister of Finance for a larger allocation in respect of this extremely important matter.

I am very pleased that Dr. Grobler, our officer in West Germany, is here. The brochure which I have in my hand, is the work of one man—his—and is an excellent piece of work. He produced this with very little money at his disposal. Hon. members saw what amount has been appropriated for all the cultural agreements, viz. only R130 000. He compiled this beautiful brochure, and it attracted a great deal of attention in West Germany. Hon. members can see how many newspaper cuttings I have. This demonstrates how much attention it attracted there, and I want to pay tribute to him and thank him.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, there are a few more arguments raised by hon. members which I should like to reply to. Various speakers referred this afternoon to the question of the high failure rate at our universities. The hon. member for Hercules referred to this matter specifically, and I should now like to say a few words about it. As the spender of public funds, the State is naturally called upon to satisfy itself that these funds are being applied in a responsible, efficient and productive way. Today universities are being subsidized by the State to the tune of 80% as far as their operating expenses are concerned, and in addition the State contributes 85% to the interest and capital redemption of loans negotiated by the universities for the construction of academic buildings and the purchase of equipment. In view of this it may justifiably be expected that the State should urge the universities to undertake constant self-examination with a view to evaluating the results achieved at our universities. At present it costs the State more than R4 000 to allow one student to study veterinary science, and more than R2 200 to allow the average student to study at any of our universities. It must be borne in mind that that amount is also being spent on every student who fails, and for that reason I may justifiably say that we are dealing here with a serious matter. Last year the amount lost in this way totalled R25 million. The failure rate at some universities is lower than that of others, and some universities are achieving excellent results in this regard. I am thinking, for example, of my own alma mater, the University of Stellenbosch. The Committee of University Principals instituted a thorough inquiry into the matter and arrived at certain findings. I want to make something very clear this evening, because I believe the time has come when this should also be stated here in the highest chamber as an objective fact: After thorough investigation they concluded that the heart of the problem appeared to be that most students simply did not work and study hard enough. One can consider the matter from whatever angle one likes and enumerate a hundred reasons—the investigation revealed that a whole series of reasons were being advanced—as possible explanations of the high failure rate, but when all is said and done one comes face to face with the simple fact that if a student works hard enough, he will not fail. We must face this fact squarely. The University of Stellenbosch instituted a separate investigation into this matter and concluded that the better the scholar is achievements are at school, the better his achievements are at university. We must therefore give a little encouragement in this connection. I shall not go into this matter any further now. There are other reasons as well which may be advanced to explain the failure rate. I have also made a thorough study of this matter, and all that I want to mention at this stage is the fundamental cause of the problem, as found by a commission after a thorough investigation. I hope that we will receive the necessary co-operation from lecturers and staff at all universities, and particularly from students, so that we may build under these circumstances and become properly prepared in South Africa. I shall have a few more things to say about universities in a moment, but there are still a few questions I want to reply to first.

I knew the hon. member for Berea’s father well in this House, for he frequently participated with great responsibility in debates here, and in my opinion that hon. member is following splendidly in his father’s footsteps. In general he acts in a responsible manner; we have observed this and thank him for doing so. This evening the hon. member touched upon an important subject, i.e. the question of “the gifted child”. This is of course a terribly important matter; there is no doubt at all about that.

Our system of differentiated education—I am saying this because it is true—is one of the very best systems one can find anywhere. This system of differentiated education also makes provision for the highly gifted child. It makes provision for all kinds of children with all kinds of talents. We must have no illusions about that. However, I nevertheless agree with the hon. member for Berea that, in spite of what I have just said, we should nevertheless reconsider the question of the gifted child to make certain that we are really affording him an optimum opportunity. I am very sympathetically disposed towards this matter, and therefore I comply gladly with the hon. member’s request. We, and various other organizations, are at present instituting an intense investigation into this matter. We are not merely being sympathetic, as the hon. member for Houghton said. We are doing far more than merely being sympathetic; we are trying to convert our sympathy into deeds.

While I am dealing with this aspect, I want to return to what the hon. member for Witwatersberg said to me earlier this afternoon. With reference to what the hon. member for Gezina had said about the practical course, the hon. member for Witwatersberg drew my attention to the fact that there are parents who feel unhappy about the question of the practical course because the public service and certain organizations peg the children who have completed this course to the salary for people who have passed Std. 8, while they have in reality passed their matriculation examination. I just want to repeat that all the interested parties involved in this matter are looking into it urgently, and the responsible bodies will again discuss the matter jointly when the time to do so is ripe. I therefore want to give those parents tins reassurance.

The hon. member for De Aar raised a few important matters, among others the question of the transfer of teachers’ bursaries. This entire matter is related to the financial policy of the provinces. As far as uniform conditions of service for teachers are concerned, I want to tell him, that these have already to a large extent been co-ordinated. There are, in effect, uniform conditions of service. But I should very much appreciate it if the hon. member would refer specific cases to me. I undertake to look into them, and if I find that there is a lack of uniformity, we shall try to help make this matter more uniform. The hon. member raised an important matter here, and I shall gladly investigate it. On the question of making conditions of service available to teachers, I want to tell the hon. member that from time to time the department sets out the conditions of service in their circulars. In my opinion it is not practical, nor is it economical, to publish a comprehensive document containing all the conditions of service. The conditions of service are amended from time to time, therefore such a document will soon become obsolete. However, if the hon. member comes to see us and makes out a good case, I should very much like to be of assistance to him in this connection.

The hon. member for Albany discussed research and asked for more money to be made available for this purpose. I want to tell the hon. member that research is of course important, but that more money is only made available if research is really necessary and is in regard to training. Furthermore, I want to point out to him that the Universities Advisory Council is giving special attention to this matter.

The hon. member also raised the question of the abolition of excise duties on imported books and materials for research. I have received many letters dealing with this matter, and I took it up personally with the hon. the Minister of Finance. So far, however, I have been unable to persuade the Minister of Finance to abolish this excise duty. The support which I have now received from the hon. member may perhaps be just the help I need in this regard. Do you know, Mr. Chairman, they say: “Success depends on luck and pluck; luck in finding somebody to pluck.” Now that there are two of us who want to pluck the hon. the Minister of Finance, we may perhaps succeed. In any case, I hope so. As the hon. member does, I feel that this step is essential. Perhaps we will be able to accomplish it, but it depends of course on the availability of funds.

The hon. member also discussed the question of better co-operation and contributions by the private sector for research. I want to say with the universities that it would be highly appreciated, and that I am grateful to the hon. member for having drawn attention to this important matter. An attempt will certainly be made to undertake research in fields where it is necessary. The Human Sciences Research Council co-ordinates this research, and the Universities Advisory Council is also giving attention to this matter. I shall keep the hon. member informed of what progress is made.

I also want to tell the hon. member that a thorough investigation has been instituted into the question of a new faculty of veterinary science. After thorough investigation it was found that facilities at Onderstepoort will have to be expanded in order to accommodate 90 students. I already said that it costs the State more than R4 000 per annum to train one student in veterinary science, and consequently I must tell the hon. member that we must consider this matter with great circumspection. Therefore I am unable to hold out any prospects at this stage, except perhaps to say that I shall ask the Universities Advisory Council again to give their attention to this matter and see whether we can make any progress along the lines requested by the hon. member.

The hon. member for Mooi River raised a very important matter, and I want to convey my appreciation to him and the local authority of Umgeni for the difficult but noble task which they are performing in a very commendable manner. I have no doubt at all that it is fraught with many frustrations. I want to ask the local authority kindly to address representations to us in writing so that we can see what we can do in this regard. That is my promise to him. The children are being accommodated in an institution for which the Department of Health bears responsibility. All that that Department of National Education does is to provide the training. There are only three State institutions for the mentally retarded, viz. Umgeni, Witrand and Alexandra which fall under my department. The other institutions are all State-aided institutions. Their problems are peculiar to them. In consultation with the Department of Health, consideration has been given to these problems. I can give him that assurance. My department accepts full responsibility for all expenditure on training at Umgeni; that is why it is not specified separately in the estimates, as in the case of State-aided institutions. That is the reason why the hon. member was unable to find the information.

The hon. member for Boksburg—unfortunately he cannot be here this evening and has tendered an apology—raised an extremely important matter, i.e. the advertising of liquor on television. I should now like to state my own standpoint on this matter very unequivocally. I am concerned—I have said this on various occasions—about the drinking pattern among our young people in the Republic of South Africa. It is necessary to say that it is really not necessary to say that it is really not necessary for young people to consume so much alcohol, particularly at sports functions. In this country we must be extremely careful not to allow our young people to be ruined by an invidious cancer, namely alcoholism. I want to say at once that I am definitely in favour of the alcohol content of beer being reduced. I am asking the SABC to reconsider the entire question of the advertising of beer and wine in conjunction with sports functions on Saturdays. I think we should look into this again. We want to build in this country, but then we should really do so. That is why the SABC and I shall look into this entire matter again, because it is so absolutely essential. I note that hon. members on that side of the House agree with me that this highest assembly in the country is unanimously agreed that our young people should be careful about the consumption of alcohol. Let us now be candid with one another. I am a sportsman myself. What are the drinking patterns of our people in South Africa? After a match most of them start off with a beer, which is followed closely by one, two, three or more quick ones. For the more hardened types, this is one thing, and bad enough, but for our young people it is, believe me, extremely bad. I want to express the fervent wish that our sport clubs should at all sports functions make non-alcoholic fruit drinks available, for if these are available, many of our young people, and older ones too, would prefer this to liquor. I am in full agreement with the hon. member for Boksburg in regard to this matter. Mercifully for the Official Opposition tonight’s debate is not being televised, for they would have fared badly.

The hon. member for Middelburg raised the question of pensions for our teachers. I want to tell him that I am very sympathetically disposed towards this matter. I shall take up the matter very earnestly with the hon. the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, and I hope we will be able to make progress with it. Merely to say that one is sympathetically disposed towards the matter is probably not enough. Last weekend I paid a visit to Highbury, a private school in Natal. There someone told us about the woman who had established the school, Isabella Douglas McMillan, a woman who lived to a ripe old age of 93. In her service there was a Bantu who had worked for her for about 60 years. When he had been in her service for about 55 years, there were rumours of implies that were contemplating an attack in the vicinity. That faithful old Zulu retainer, who had served his mistress loyally for so many years, then assured her that he would see to it that they did not mutilate or harm her. His solution was that he would rather kill her himself before that could happen! We therefore see that there are many forms of sympathy. However we shall approach the matter under discussion with our own brand of sympathy.

I think that I have now, to the best of my ability, replied to all the questions that were put to me. However, there are still two matters to which I quickly want to refer. One of them is a matter which was also raised by the hon. member who is the chairman of our education group, and also by the hon. member for Johannesburg North. This is the question of the salary structures of the staff at the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education and of the staff at the universities. I do not want to elaborate on this in detail. All that I want to say about it is that the fundamental standpoint which the Cabinet has adopted, i.e. that a salary structure be worked out for the teacher, remains exactly as it is. Subsequently, however, a structure is also worked out for the universities and for the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education. This resolution still applies, and further attention is therefore being given to the entire matter. We therefore ask members of the staffs of universities and of the Colleges for Advanced Technical Education to have patience in the meantime. They can rest assured that they will not be disappointed. But they must simply have a little patience. At present they are receiving a salary adjustment of 9% on an average. Their new salary structure—a structure which is modelled on the one which is being applied in the teaching profession at present—has already been accepted in principle. That it is therefore going to be put into operation is a matter about which there is no doubt at all.

Finally, I want to draw attention to a facet of education which should not be allowed to pass unnoticed. It is a matter to which one or two hon. members have also referred. In these difficult circumstances, the circumstances in which this education debate is being conducted, with “we are building for our future” as a theme, and in which the word “weerbaarheid” has been used by almost every speaker who participated in this debate—of course this was not fortuitous— one cannot but feel grateful that so much attention has been given to spiritual preparedness in this highest assembly in the country. But what I am more grateful for than anything else, is the following. In a book which I have here in my hand, Education in South Africa by Prof. E. G. Malherbe, a book which is absolutely a standard work on this subject, we find—on pages 601 and 602— graphs under the caption “Educational expenditure as a percentage of total State expenditure since 1910”. Let us consider these graphs for a moment. They indicate that, on each occasion when war conditions and problematic conditions arose, spending on education in South Africa plunged. We note from these graphs the extent of these downward tendencies during the periods 1914 to 1918 and 1939 to 1945. The downward tendencies during these two periods were tremendous. But what is happening now? Because we are building a nation, are preparing ourselves for the future, the expenditure on education in all its facets shows a tremendous increase, instead of a decrease. That is the surest guarantee that this nation will continue to exist, and that we shall, in the long run, overcome.

Mr. Chairman, in replying to the hon. member for Rondebosch, the hon. the Minister said what his standpoint was with regard to the question of segregation at universities. The hon. the Minister associated himself with the hon. the Prime Minister by saying that our universities had in actual fact never been closed to people of other races. I am sure that hon. members on both sides of this House have been pondering over this statement for several days, because it does come from strange quarters indeed. The hon. the Minister went on to lay down the rule for us in connection with this question concerning our universities and the admission of other races to our universities. He gave this Committee to understand that other races would be admitted to a university for a specific group in meritorious cases only. There are statistics as to how many of these meritorious cases there have already been. Earlier this afternoon the hon. member for Rondebosch mentioned a few of them. He referred to the Coloured and Black people who had been admitted to White universities and Whites who had been admitted to Coloured and Indian universities. In all, these admissions amount to a total of 967 meritorious cases. I should just like to ask one question in this regard: If there were 967 meritorious exceptions to a rule in one year, is it not time for us to take another look at that rule? Can a rule like this be a good rule if there were such a number of meritorious exceptions within a single year? The hon. the Minister concedes that they were meritorious exceptions.

In this debate, and in previous debates, a great deal has been said about the question of language, culture and colour, in our whole educational structure. Hon. members on both sides of this House apparently have the desire to give protection and recognition to the cultural possessions of all individuals and groups and to afford protection to the basic rights of every citizen in the country to practise his religion, speak his language and educate his children in that medium. These objectives must be achieved within the framework of what is practical and of course, it must be ensured that the protection of one group, of the cultural possessions of one group or one individual, does not lead to the denial of those of another.

Earlier this year a motion was introduced in this House by the hon. member for Virginia about the question of the Christian-National character which our education must have. My feeling in connection with this question has always been that a framework of fairness has to be created in our schools in this regard, one which does not give rise to the denial of the religious convictions of others, and the necessary religious instruction should be given to the pupils within that framework. This need not result in the religious convictions of any child or his parents being denied, nor need it result in any teacher with differing religious convictions having to participate in this specific element of religious instruction.

You do not have the vaguest idea of what this is about.

Yes, the hon. member says I do not know what this is about. During the discussion of his motion the hon. member for Virginia said that the religious instruction period was possibly not enough and that we should perhaps consider the fine practice of opening the activities at school in the morning with a prayer. This obviously is a good idea, but I just want to ask this question: Are we convinced, before we spend any more time on the question of religious instruction, that the time which is in fact allocated for religious instruction, is utilized effectively to the maximum? In this regard a specific look should be taken at the question as to whether the prescribed religious syllabus is applied and used properly. I can say with pride that my own father is the author of two hand-books for religious instruction in high schools. He was involved in this himself and he himself did it properly.

Why?

I shall say why, Mr. Chairman. It was because there was a shortage of proper textbooks to give effect to the religious instruction syllabus of the Cape Provincial Administration. So, it is a very clear sign that many of those hon. members who wax so lyrical about this question, have a lack of knowledge and a lack of depth as far as this question is concerned, and also that they have not ensured at all whether the time that has been made available for this up to now, has been used to good effect.

In his speech on his motion, the hon. member for Virginia indicated that people with religious convictions differing from the Christian-National one of which he spoke, actually ought not to be allowed to teach in our schools. In this respect we differ very definitely once again.

Did he say that?

I have always believed tolerance to be a comer-stone of Christian ethics. If this is so, there can be very little sympathy for the type of standpoint adopted by that hon. member in this House.

I should like to refer briefly to the question of preparedness, to which the hon. the Minister also referred in reply to the hon. member for Johannesburg North. [Interjections.] Mr. Speaker, this is obviously a matter on which everyone has very strong feelings. I am referring not only to physical preparedness now, but also to spiritual preparedness. How should we achieve spiritual preparedness? I think we should achieve it by means of the right type of education, as it is being offered to a certain extent. To this I want to add, however, that we should guard against over-protecting our children, especially the more senior pupils in our schools. We should afford these people the opportunity of being exposed to other things. [Interjections.] In the circumstances prevailing in the school, we should afford them the opportunity to compare their own cultural possessions with those of others. They should be afforded the opportunity to test their own cultural possessions against the realities of today. But, Sir, I want to say this: A child, a pupil, a student, any young person who has never tested his own standpoint and his own cultural possessions against the realities of modern life and has never tested them against the cultural possessions of others, will never be convinced of the value of his own cultural possessions. Therefore, in the final instance, he is never in a state of preparedness.

The hon. member for Standerton mentioned a matter which is also close to my heart, viz. the depopulation of the rural areas. I want to say at once that I whole-heartedly agree with the hon. member that schools in the rural areas should receive special treatment from the department as well as from the provincial education departments. The question which is being asked in this regard, is where the money for this purpose is to come from. I want to suggest something in this regard. Perhaps we should obtain the money by effecting some economies. In dealing with economies, we must take into account the point which the hon. member for Rondebosch made this afternoon. We must try to avoid the unnecessary duplication of educational facilities which we have purely on a racial basis. As the hon. member said, we have, for instance, two dental faculties within a radius of 40 km. In addition to those faculties, we have three medical faculties within a radius of 50 km. No one can justify this on a purely economic basis. No one can justify it. If we can effect economies in these spheres, we shall progress a long way in the direction of accommodating the hon. member for Standerton, because I want to pose this question: How many rural schools cannot be kept going with the money wasted on the duplication of educational services mentioned by the hon. member for Rondebosch?

Mr. Chairman, I think it has become necessary for the Van der Merwes to have a family reunion. It is amazing to see how many members of our family have strayed. I actually wanted to begin my speech tonight by referring to the Human Sciences Research Council and the work it does, especially with regard to historical research, but I think it is important, before I discuss that, that I dwell for a moment on hon. members of the PFP who have spoken up to now. We listened to the hon. members for Johannesburg North and Rondebosch, and we have just been listening to the hopelessly lost Van der Merwe of Green Point. I want to begin with the one who to my mind is the most intelligent of them, i.e. the hon. member for Rondebosch. The hon. member for Rondebosch, when he spoke this afternoon, moved as close to the NP as he could. I think the hon. member realizes, as a result of the election which has just taken place as well as the position we occupy in South Africa today vis-à-vis that of the party which he in his wisdom decided at Stellenbosch to join, that the party in which he now finds himself is ruining South Africa and its people. Now he also realizes that the PFP is making no headway with the public of South Africa. Therefore the method he is now adopting is to move as close as possible to the NP as far as his view of universities is concerned.

There is, however, something we should make very clear tonight. We know the ropes too well, and we know the PFP and its predecessors too well to be misled by his view of universities which he presented to us tonight. Anyone who knows about education and training realizes very clearly that when one deals with education, one does not start at the tertiary level. One does not start at the top. One starts with the fundamentals.

However, what have we had during the present session from the PFP? We have had discussions here before about education and the education policy, but what did we have from the hon. member for Johannesburg North? Earlier this afternoon he referred very theatrically to the fact that we were not discussing Black education. He said, too, that we were not discussing Coloured and Indian education. There is, however, opportunity enough later on in the session for him to discuss that again. The problem with the hon. member for Johannesburg North is that he is lost. However, that is not the grave sin. The problem with that hon. member is that he does not know that he is lost.

We cannot simply ignore the argument of the hon. member for Rondebosch, his smooth talk and his soft, honeyed sentiments on universities, the making available of universities and what flows from that for all people. Let us get down to what underlies the PFP’s view of the education policy. If we do that, we cannot get away from what my friend, the hon. member for Virginia, referred to earlier today. Let us go back and see what the hon. member for Johannesburg North said. By the way, one of their colleagues from Pretoria made an inaugural address as professor and spoke about the different types of Afrikaners. He spoke about the stereotyped Afrikaner, the compromise Afrikaner, the liberal Afrikaner and the mature Afrikaner. I wonder, however, in what category the three hon. members who spoke tonight, put themselves. I should like them to tell me when they speak again. Let us now listen to what the hon. member for Johannesburg North said about education. I quote—

Surely that is a lot of clichés the hon. member is stringing together here! It is a lot of concepts with no contents. I want to ask him whether that is the basis. If that is his basis, how does he reconcile that with what the hon. member for Pinelands said? I quote—

Then he continued—

He went on to say it had to be like this if it was going to be true education at all.

The hon. member for Johannesburg said we had to blur the dividing lines. He says we now have to put the Venda, the Sotho, the Xhosa, the Baca and the Gcnunugwebe and everyone under the sun together and then we have to blur the dividing lines. The hon. member for Pinelands enters the debate and says that we should be disturbing. We must train our children to ask questions, not only to be critical, but also to be disturbing. How can one, in the course of the history of mankind, in view of his efforts to establish a civilization, to live normatively, to foster a sense of responsibility and to act protectively, go, with all one’s knowledge, and question the basic values in the educational system? How can one question the basic principles in one’s community? Is one going to question discipline, is one going to question respect for a parent, is one going to question respect? What is one going to do? These are the elementary questions we have to put to the hon. members of the PFP tonight.

I come now to the hon. member for Green Point. It is very good that a man should refer to his father. I am going to try to get those two books and read them. That member, however, does not fit in with the hon. member for Pinelands. Has that hon. member ever read what the hon. member for Pinelands really said? Has he read what the hon. member for Johannesburg North really said? He should tell us where he wants to draw the dividing line between nations. It was not the NP who created the normal differences between nations. My goodness, surely it is impossible for us to have created that diversity! Surely we have not created the diversity between the Venda, the Sotho, the Xhosa, the Afrikaner and the Indian. We accept that particular reality and we want to operate within that reality. One cannot, however, educate or train if one does not have fundamentals. However, what does the PFP want to do with your children and my children, Mr. Chairman? They want every value of the Christian civilization to be questioned.

That is nonsense!

That hon. member says it is nonsense. The hon. member for Pinelands did say it, however, and I can read it out to him. He said that education should be disturbing.

He happens to be a priest in a Christian church. Do you think that he would then question that?

Mr. Chairman, can you now understand why the world suffers from undisciplined student communities? Can you understand now why we have student communities in America, Europe and the rest of the world that do not want to subject themselves to discipline, and why there are student riots throughout the world? The reason for that is that there are liberal educationists like the hon. members on the opposite side who generates these things amongst the students. We cannot allow that. In the times in which we are living in South Africa, one needs the highest degree of responsibility, not only among students, but also on the level of primary education.

You have no confidence in the youth of South Africa.

The hon. members on the opposite side been talking about that for half an hour. They make certain sentimental, superficial statements which have no connection with educational truths and now they want the NP, the Venda, the Sotho or whoever it might be, to emulate them. I want to say to the hon. member for Johannesburg North that he and I should give each other the undertaking that when the Education and Training Vote is discussed later this year, we shall indicate what Black educationists throughout the whole world say and what their standpoints are. Do they want disturbance as the hon. members opposite do? I am afraid that as far as I am concerned the PFP is a party that wants to create unrest in every facet of South Africa’s pattern of life. I just cannot get away from that, and when I say that, I am not trying to score a cheap debating point. We laid the groundwork for a fine debate here. The hon. member for Hercules, the hon. the Minister and all of us on this side said that we want to build towards the future. What, however, did the hon. members of the PFP do? They broke it down. If we dig a trench to lay a foundation, they cave in that trench. When we want to mix cement, they ruin the mixture. If we want to lay bricks one on top of the other, they break it down. I think it has become necessary for the entire public of South Africa, English as well as Afrikaans, whatever nation it may be, to realize that in the hands of the PFP the future of their children is in danger. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I too should like to say a few words about education this evening. I think that today we are probably dealing with the most important subject we could possibly deal with in this House. I do not wish to refer back to what hon. members who spoke before me had to say. However, something was said by two hon. members, to which I should just like to refer. The issue was a veterinary faculty. Probably there is going to be discussion as to whether the faculty will be established or not. Probably it will have to be well motivated. The hon. the Minister also referred to that. I do not believe there can be any doubt that there is only one place where it could be built, viz. in the Free State. I shall leave it at that.

As I said, education is important. There is no nation, particularly not our nation, that can undervalue it in the times we are living in. There is no nation to whom it could be more important than it is to our nation that in the times we are living in, and with the numbers at our disposal, we should have people of quality and people who know what they want. A great deal has been said about this and consequently I do not wish to say much more about it, except this: To me education is far more than merely the acquisition of knowledge. To me the education constitutes the guidance of the child and getting a child to the point where he can place himself in his own environment, where he can decide things for himself in a calm manner.

One of our greatest philosophers has said: Give me a child with judgment, and if he can judge and evaluate file things around him, then he can find himself a place in any circumstances, because he will investigate every circumstance and every situation and will be able to find his own path. In other words, education is not life in a small package. Education is not the acquisition of knowledge, but is the forming of an approach to the knowledge at a person’s disposal. Any person with knowledge can use that knowledge, but only in accordance with what he possesses. Someone once said: Knowledge without character is a dangerous weapon. I think we have sufficient examples of that. Knowledge with character, supported by the right approach, is also a powerful weapon on the side of Good. That is why, to me, education is what many learned men have called it: The establishment of the child in a full life. One puts him in a picture from which he can see life in all its facets.

This evening I should like to exchange a few ideas about a facet which, to me, has a great deal to do with the full life. It is something to which the hon. the Minister referred in his reply, namely land service. To me, land service is one of the most important facets of the development of the education of the child, because it embraces virtually all facets of life.

On page 71 of the annual report of the Department of National Education it is mentioned that in the past year we had land service camps, that there are 22 000 enrolled members in the land service movement and that 12 000 of these members attended 141 camps. Here and now I want to convey our sincere appreciation for this. However I also want to say at once that in my opinion this is probably one of the things which we should develop vigorously. I shall come back to this point.

The land service movement came into being as long as 1914 in a different form, when agricultural clubs were established. In these clubs the children were encouraged for example to grow a field of maize on a small scale, to rear a cow, to plant vegetables or to eradicate weeds. Their task was then judged accordingly. The idea of bringing the child back to the land was behind this whole idea. If this was true in 1914, how much more is it not true in the times we are living in, because at present the people of South Africa are far more urbanized than in the past. That is why we found a man like the late Dr. C. F. Visser, the rector of the Normal College at Bloemfontein, who gave shape to the land service movement when he founded it and when the first camps in fact took place.

Now I want to confine myself in particular—and this is a subject about winch we could say a great deal—to the field covered by the land service movement. Looking today at the report of the land service movement, one will see that they move in a number of spheres and that land service work is carried out in many fields. However I want to confine myself to the type of land service I knew when young students and scholars went out to the farms and built contour walls by hand and with primitive equipment. Those walls were built to improve the land which had been eroded by gullies. People will want to know why that is so important. However, let us look at the slogan of the land service movement. The slogan of the land service movement is: “Liefde vir die arbeid, liefde vir die grand, liefde vir die gemeenskap en jou God.” Another land service slogan is: “Met die daad en nie met die woord nie.” I do not want to waste any more time on this now, but I do just want to say that over the years the land service movement first fell under the Department of Agricultural Technical Services and then under the Department of National Education, where it belongs, as an important division of our cultural development.

I should like to confine myself to three benefits arising out of the aims of the land service movement. These are in fact embodied in its slogan: Love of work, love of the land and love for one’s fellow man. If a group of students or schoolboys are taken to a farm under the guidance of a teacher to work and perform a certain labour of love on the soil, then to me it is a wonderful thought to be able to know that our urbanized child, that child who knows so little about a farm, is afforded the opportunity to perform wonderful and constructive work there in the company of his friends. To us who grew up together on the farms this may sound strange, but are we able to grasp what it means to a child who has grown up in a city, to go and work on a farm with a pick and shovel? Do we realize what a wonderful privilege it is for him to discover his own potentialities in labour? Do we understand, then, that the truth of the old saying “labour enobles” is revealed in the child? Do we understand what it means to him when he stands there among his friends and is told that their common aim is to repair a gully on the land and that they are to do it as a team? If he gets tired and looks about him, in the knowledge that the others feel as he does, and when he feels the sun beating down on him and feels the scorching wind on his body, then he begins to realize what it means to work. I often wonder whether we are not depriving our children of the joy of labour. What is more, the child learns to love the land on which and with which he works. He also learns to understand what it means to build together for the future. A child is taught to understand where he comes from, where he is and where he is going. If such a child has given his bodily strength for his soil, for Mother Earth, then in the evening, when he sits around the camp fire with his friends, and then goes to sleep alone under the stars, something is born in him which can never perish: the knowledge that he belongs. It will be this child who will be devoted to the soil, who will go out and, in the face of any challenges, will fight for his country and his people. It will be this child who will not do what the hon. member for Green Point wants him to do. His cultural heritage will never be negotiable or for sale, because it constitutes his national identity. It belongs to him and can never be changed.

I want to conclude by conveying my thanks to the hon. the Minister for what he has done for education, and I want to salute our thousands of teachers this afternoon, those teachers who have taken upon themselves this task of land service; who, in their free time, have taken out young children and allowed their pliant characters to reach heights at which they have had new insights, at which they understand that they belong.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Heilbron will forgive me if I do not follow his line of speech as I want to follow my own. [Interjections.] Apparently the hon. gentlemen have been expecting me. I want to start off by referring to a few remarks made by the hon. member for Boksburg earlier on. I understand that he cannot be with us this evening. It is a pity that he did not stop his speech while he was in front. He is like a small boy who knows that he has done wrong and he started making excuses for the misdemeanours of his party before he was taken to task. Never before have I seen an admission of guilt such as he displayed here tonight. He tried to justify the conscience of the entire NP sitting opposite us. [Interjections.] He regaled us with all sorts of reasons for the over-exposure of Ministers we have on the television service. He claims that the hon. the Ministers are all invited by overseas Dignitaries, bodies and other personages to speak and therefore we see them more often. I want one invitation. I want an invitation to that studio across the road, because I would like to go there, face the television cameras and tell South Africa … [Interjections.] I would like to have the opportunity to say to South Africa what I am about to say to this hon. committee now.

In previous years the problems with the SABC and particularly its television service have been attacked from this side of the House, but it is now more apparent than ever that these attacks have fallen on deaf ears. I want to say that I am under the impression that the hon. Minister for National Education has no control and no say whatsoever over the SABC. [Interjections.] He has lost control.

Let us examine this organization, particularly its television service. It is a law unto itself; it is by itself, it is of itself and it is for itself. It does not hate itself, but my, how it loves itself! It is the mouthpiece of one point of view, the mouthpiece of the NP. It is the servile interviewer of Nationalist leaders. It is the slant that all decent-thinking South Africans are growing to loathe and despise. It is the medium that is today causing more letters to the editor of every newspaper in the country than ever before on any one single subject. South Africa is crying out against this thing that is heaped upon us. It has built itself a tower block in Auckland Park and has retreated into that tower block, whence it feels it can rule, dominate and motivate the minds of all South Africans. [Interjections.] I am stating facts for the benefit of that hon. member over there. [Interjections.] If the SABC-TV continues along the road that it has chosen for itself, it will ultimately be something that can only be described as an evil. These may be harsh words, but they are true because power such as one can acquire through the medium of television can become an evil. [Interjections.] It does not know, it never has known and it never will know the expression “Fairplay”. Its news broadcasts are nothing other than ministerial parades spouting NP propaganda. It cannot distinguish the difference between news and comment, and the constant request that the public be advised by the simple insertion of the word “comment” on the screen when it comes to making a comment on any news item, falls on the deaf ears of the mighty that live in the tower block in Auckland Park. [Interjections.]

Order!

Thank you, Sir. I hope they hear this one. It is in fact the brotherhood of “ Breeders” that has been set up to shape the destiny of this country through the medium of its insidious propaganda. [Interjections.] It is a law entirely unto itself; it dubs programmes ad nauseum and then feeds the public with mediocre trash. It has no idea what entertainment value means. It is a lover—that it is! It is a lover of itself. It preens itself, it glorifies itself and it worships itself with Artes award parades costing thousands upon thousands of rand. Then it subjects the viewer to the spectacle of all this and gets so carried away in its own glory that it is unable to stop itself when it runs a mere hour and ten minutes over the advertised time. It can’t stop glorifying its own self. It runs into the Sabbath—so much does it love itself. It spends these moneys on itself without any consideration of the need of the poorer people and of the lesser privileged. It says it cannot—it has been said in this House—afford to allow a special licence rate for pensioners. In a nutshell: it sickens one.

I wonder what effect it would have were it to be announced that the SABC and the SABC-TV had come to its senses and decided to present their awards to deserving people at a simple ceremony in one of their own magnificent studios at Auckland Park. They have enormous studios at Auckland Park.

They held them there last year.

No, they held them in the Civic Centre in 1977 and then in the Nico Malan theatre this year.

What is the difference?

I am sorry for you if you do not know the difference between flying hundreds of people to Cape Town and leaving them in Johannesburg. These savings can today be used for doing something positive such as subsidizing television licences for institutions, hospitals and pensioners. We on this side of the House in the NRP have pleaded for this time and time again. What a wonderful thing it would be if the SABC were to have a rethink now that it enjoys tremendous additional income from advertising on its television service. What a wonderful thing it would also be if it were to have a rethink in respect of obtaining better quality programmes from overseas, high-class educational material which will show South Africans what the world outside is all about. In heaven’s name, we have had enough of what goes on below the sea. Let us put our feet on the ground. How wonderful it would be if the SABC were to look at itself a little more critically and compare its programme content and presentation with that of other countries in the world. It should compare itself with the BBC, which stands on its own two feet and will brook no interference of any kind whatsoever from the Government of the day.

One can speak on this topic for hours. I am sorry, I cannot find it in myself to say one good word about the SABC’s television service other than about its technical quality, which is consistently good. All too often a good programme, very often locally produced, leaves a nice taste in one’s mouth which is soured in a short space of time by the presentation following it. All too often one sees locally produced or imported material of excellent quality followed by the sort of comment we heard in the programme “Op die Weegskaal” wherein it was stated that one of the ways to combat communism was to support the Nationalist Government. That sort of comment is enough to sour one’s viewing pleasure for the rest of the week. Even Kojak’s lollypop will not take away the bad taste.

Mr. Chairman, this evening the hon. member for Umhlanga made a very pious-sounding and unpleasant attack on the SABC, such as we have seldom heard before in this House. I want to say to the hon. member that he has heard something, but he does not know the rights of it. His speech attests to extreme ignorance and a defiant wilfulness. What we heard this evening was a meaningless flood of words and statements from him with no basis whatsoever. By levelling this ridiculous criticism at the SABC, that hon. member is in the bad company of the Sunday Times and the Sunday Express, which try to sow suspicion against the SABC in an underhand way. After the presentation of the programme on Artes awards in the Nico Malan, the Sunday Times and the Sunday Express sowed suspicion against the SABC in the same way as that hon. member did here this evening. When the correct facts were put to the Sunday Times, they refused to publish those facts or to take any notice of them. This evening the hon. member launched an unprecedented attack on the SABC in this House. The SABC programmes “Sake van die Dag” and “Current Affairs” have very often been criticized in this House. However, I now want to ask the hon. member: Has it not been these very programmes, “Sake van die Dag” and “Current Affairs” that have contributed enormously …

To the NP’s victory—yes!

… towards bringing home to our people the South African point of view? I want to say to the hon. member for Durban Point that the SABC has always put only the South African view, not the NPs, but the South African view. It has always stated the truly South African view. But those hon. members are deaf to these things. Is it a mortal sin if the SABC puts South Africa’s case? What do they expect the SABC to do? Is it a sin when the SABC uses patriotic language every day?

Oooh!

Every broadcasting station in the world, whether it be in America or in Malawi, reflects the view of its country. The SABC does the same. Is it a sin if that is done? There was a great deal of criticism of the SABC in regard to the Artes programme presented in the Nico Malan Opera House. In the few minutes left to me I want to deal briefly with that criticism of the SABC. It was maintained that the SABC spent vast sums. An amount of up to R450 000 was mentioned as having been spent on the programme that evening.

R200 000!

The hon. member for Durban Central is wrong. The hon. the Minister will probably give us the figure later in the evening, but I can tell the hon. member here and now that he is making a mistake.

Tell us.

Do not be shy.

You will get the figure later. Wild accusations have been made about this Artes programme. Before the SABC presented this programme, they compiled a budget and kept strictly to that budget right to the end. That budget was not exceeded. Why, then, is there this ridiculous criticism of the SABC in regard to this matter?

Do not try to defend a poor case.

I can give hon. members the assurance that the people who have criticized the SABC about this are very far off the mark. There has also been criticism of the presentation itself. I want to quote what has been written about this in the Press to indicate how great the confusion was among the people who levelled criticism. The Star writes—

What we had here again this evening was a waterfall of words without substance. Let us take a look at how the newspaper reviews differed about this presentation. If hon. members opposite were to have the opportunity to discuss the SABC, then we should once again see confusion prevailing in the ranks of the Opposition. The following appeared in Rapport in connection with the Artes presentation—

That is what Rapport had to say about it However, let us look at what Die Transvaler had to say on the matter. The comments of Die Transvaler read as follows—

We see, therefore, how the opinions of critics differ on this matter. However, I want to quote further opinions on the matter. A great deal of trouble was taken to give that occasion a Cape flavour. In this regard Die Transvaler writes the following—

However, what does the Cape Town newspaper Die Burger have to say?—

We can see, therefore, how the newspapers differ in this connection. The Citizen goes on to say—

One newspaper says that there was no Cape flavour, whereas another says that the programme breathed the atmosphere of the Cape throughout. What, then, are we to think of this criticism of presentations by the SABC? We have seen how the critics differ. Are we really to take their views into account when they differ to such an extent?

However, let us look at further aspects of the matter. As we all know, Prof. Chris Barnard also played a part in the activities that evening. Die Transvaler has the following to say—

On the same aspect, The Citizen writes the following—

Now I ask whether we are really to take this criticism into account. Is this the kind of criticism of presentations of the SABC with which we must concern ourselves? Members of the public also wrote letters to the newspapers on the matter. One correspondent reacted as follows—

Another correspondent wrote—

This is the kind of reaction and commentary one gets. Die Transvaler, a newspaper which criticized the Artes evening as we have already seen, readily concedes that the Oscar awards in Hollywood—a programme which was also broadcast on TV here after the Aries programme—was of a poorer quality than our own Aries evening.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bloemfontein North expressed opinions relating to certain aspects of the Aries awards and the presentation thereof on SABC-TV. I do not want to go into that any further. I should like to come back to what the hon. member for Umhlanga had to say. Over the years we have learnt that everything presented by the SABC and the television service, however, innocent, it is disparaged by the Opposition parties. We say it again this evening but it also became clear that their signal strength and image are rapidly weakening. Whereas in the past, speaker after speaker made attack after attack on the SABC, today that was the exception. Nevertheless it was venomous enough.

You do not know what is still coming!

Throughout the 40-year existence of the SABC we have never once, in all the time they have been sitting in the Opposition benches, heard a word of appreciation from that side in regard to the work done by the SABC and the television service. [Interjections.] I do not think it is necessary to listen to the SABC or look at television to find out what the policy of the NP is. There is sufficient opportunity to advance that policy without making use of those media. However, the problem is that those hon. members see everything that is Afrikaans and pro-South African, as Nationalist. That is the mistake those hon. members make.

In all the years of the SABC’s existence it has recognized that it has to serve the community, and it has established the principles and values of a pattern of national life. It is these very things that the Opposition does not understand. They cannot appreciate them, and they simply want to reject them. That is why they criticize the SABC. I believe that the SABC has a very proud record which it has built up over the years. It is a record of impartiality. By “impartiality” I do not mean that the SABC has to remain neutral and not adopt a standpoint, but that a choice has to be made between order and disorder, between morality and immorality and between freedom and licence. Against that background the SABC would be mad to remain neutral.

There is another aspect of the SABC’s activities to which I briefly want to pay tribute this evening. I refer to the work done by Radio RSA. Radio RSA is our foreign service which, since 1966, has beamed transmissions and broadcast programmes, chiefly to Africa, South America, the Middle East and Europe. This station does not broadcast National party policy. It does good work for South Africa. At the moment broadcasting is done in 10 languages, namely English, Afrikaans, German, French, Dutch, Portuguese, Swahili, ChiChewa, Lozi and, since last year, Tsonga. As I have said, these programmes are for the most part broadcast to Africa, the Middle East and Europe. Since there has been such tremendous interest in events in Southern Africa over the past year or two in the international sphere, Radio South Africa has also presented programmes in that regard. In recent times most broadcasting time has been devoted to political, social and economic aspects of our country. This step has met with a favourable reaction among the listeners in all the target areas of this service. It is in particular because valuable information is conveyed in a manner which, according to the listeners, is balanced and objective, that people like to listen to Radio RSA. In this way listeners have been able to reach balanced conclusions in regard to events in Southern Africa. This was particularly the case with regard to events in Angola and Mozambique. There are about 156 hours of broadcasting every week. Probably very few of us are aware that at night while we are sleeping these announcers and technicians are presenting these programmes. That these programmes are popular is indisputable, because approximately 47 000 letters are received annually. Half of these letters come from African countries. In order to strengthen and improve this service, three new 500 kilowatt stations were constructed in November 1977. Journalists and businessmen travelling in Africa have reported that Radio RSA enjoys the attention and interest of a number of African leaders and diplomats. A recent survey by a South African newspaper showed that more than 75% of the UN representatives of the African leaders regularly tuned in to the programmes of Radio RSA. They did so because they found the reporting and news broadcasts by Radio RSA more trustworthy than that broadcast by their own services. The leader of the OAU said that he was concerned because his representatives and the man on the street knew more about what was going on in South Africa than what was happening in his own country. Radio RSA has won friends and listeners by also broadcasting certain negative reports, not that listeners were satisfied by them. However, it also took the positive step of commenting on what was being done to solve problems. The quality and the service provided by this station are very good and the quality is very high, so high that with our German service we won first place in 1976 in a competition arranged by the German shortwave listeners’ club, the ADDX club. This is an exceptional achievement if one bears in mind that there is a total of 50 stations broadcasting in German. This success was repeated in 1977. Some members of this club replied in writing and indicated why they selected Radio RSA as the station which broadcast their favourite programmes. Their comment was to the effect that the variety offered was to their taste and that there was objective and unprejudiced reporting of the political events in Southern Africa. In addition, the news and commentary was to them the best and most trustworthy.

A similar honour fell to the lot of our French service which broadcasts to Canada. In 1976 that station won a similar international competition. Furthermore there was a strong demand by 4 500 other broadcasting bodies for transcription programmes and records, and particularly commentary and programmes on nature conservation, images in sound and surveys of many other subjects.

The talks compiled by the Department of Foreign Affairs of the SABC are aimed at certain target areas of Radio RSA. They endeavour to make South Africa, its people, its economic position, its potential, its achievements and its policy known to the world. About 10 million people listen every evening to Radio RSA, the Voice of South Africa. Although it is aimed chiefly at Africa, people in Germany, Europe and also in America like to listen to the programmes. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I have really been trying hard to single out one point from the hon. member for Alberton’s speech. All he proved, however, was that he had read the annual report of the SABC which he then attempted to read out inaudibly to this House. [Interjections.] I am sorry, but there is nothing more I can say about that.

I can understand the hon. member for Bloemfontein North better, because he is an information officer of the NP. As such he has to express his gratitude to one of his most important weapons. It cannot be otherwise. It is the most important weapon he has. It is his duty as information officer to express his gratitude to that information weapon. More than that he did not say, except to illustrate that he does not have any opinion of his own. All his ideas came from the critics of the various newspapers. He cannot express an opinion of his own. He can only repeat the opinions of the critics.

†Mr. Chairman, I am entering this debate because of the growing flood of resentment and reaction to the quality and standard of SATV programmes. These reactions are flooding in from all quarters. I enter the debate to indicate that we take these complaints seriously. I am not going to waste the time for the House quoting them, but I have letter after letter as well as letters to newspapers confirming this. So, for instance, I read “Add my name too”, “SATV’s mistake”, “An SABC-TV English laager” and so on. Here I have one that says: “Why don’t you arrange demonstrations outside the SABC and also arrange for someone else to start paying for any small fines incurred herewith?” I did not take that one up. Here are some other quotations at random: “Forward march”; “English viewers are being virtually insulted”; “The longest yawn”; “Broederbond grip on SABC”. So it goes on in letter after letter and in letters to the newspapers. There is a growing resentment against the service for which we waited so patiently, so long and with such anticipation. Whilst there was tolerance in the early stages for teething troubles and problems, that tolerance is growing very threadbare now.

There are two major complaints. The first is the blatant political abuse of a public amenity—I repeat, the blatant political abuse of a public amenity—paid for by the taxpayers of South Africa. It may please the Nationalist propaganda department and their information officers like the hon. member for Bloemfontein North. It makes them happy. Indeed, it is very significant that their propaganda officers, such as the hon. member for Bloemfontein North, should be the ones to speak in this debate. However, I want to say that it does not please the people of South Africa. There is the perpetual parade of puffed up Cabinet Ministers …

Who is talking!

… the paranoiac absurdity of the concept that only Cabinet Ministers and the Government make news; the fawning interviews; the fawning, obsequious, crawling attitude adopted when questioning Ministers to make sure one does not ask a question which would be difficult to answer.

There is, however, one bright spot. The voters of Benoni at least got rid of one of my pet aversions from television. Mr. Chairman, it may be a blessing for television, but it has been a tragedy for the House if one thinks what we swopped, what we lost and what we got; but at least it has helped to improve television. However, the price we have paid is that we now get a double dose of that other Nationalist propagandist, the one we get perpetually fawning on the Ministers and putting over Nationalist propaganda.

I want to agree that the Opposition get rare 30-second flashes. [Interjections.] Yes, 30-second flashes, but always on subjects in respect of which we agree with the Government and which are not controversial. This has been admitted to me. During the election I was filmed three or four times, but the films were never shown and I was told: “But you were too aggressive.” [Interjections.] I was, and I feel aggressive, as I do now! Does aggressiveness and strong opinions debar one from television? If one belongs to the Opposition, is one only allowed to talk on things concerning which one agrees with the Government? I want to know where Opposition speakers have appeared live to talk on a really controversial issue in more than a 20 to 30-second flash. I want to issue a challenge to the hon. the Minister tonight. A Select Committee of this House unanimously recommended that television should give a fair and objective opportunity to all political parties represented in this House to put their views. The Select Committee’s recommendation was unanimous and it was under the chairmanship of the hon. Chief Whip of that party. [Interjections.] I challenge the hon. the Minister to implement that recommendation. [Interjections.]

Order!

I challenge him to instruct that forums be held where the different parties can nominate their spokesmen. He can appear himself as the TV star of the year. He can bring “Pik”, the anti-discrimination king or queen or perhaps the prince, the darling of TV. He can bring him along but let us pick our person and let us give South Africa balanced, strong and frank political controversy on TV. Let the people know what the issues are. I am prepared to issue a challenge now that I will appear, and that I will accept one half the time of any Government speaker, on the issue of the failure of Government policy and the alternatives which we offer South Africa. The Government can have 10 minutes for every five minutes that I have and I bet they will not accept it [Interjections.]

The other burning complaint is the quality of the English programmes. I do not agree, because I believe the Afrikaans programmes are just as lousy and sometimes even worse. [Interjections.] However, the flood of letters that I have here complain of the quality of the English programmes. Some of the stupidities and the absurdities are for instance the fact that one dubs a film with English actors and with English speech with Afrikaans and then one broadcasts on the English service a foreign language film. I am talking about American because that is not English. Why not dub the American, the foreign language, into Afrikaans, because it is a foreign language any way, and then leave the English for the English programme? Instead they dub the English into Afrikaans, and then one has to put up with a non-English English which, although we must accept that it is perhaps a dialect, is not English to those who have any respect for the language. [Interjections.] Those Government members should be the first to allow me the right to say this. They are the first to be sensitive about any insult to Afrikaans, the Afrikaans culture or the Afrikaans language. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, for many years I attempted to get my hon. friend, the member for Durban Point, to take a reasonable approach to affairs, whether political or otherwise. For years I struggled to do this but I was a complete and dismal failure in this regard judging by the exhibition that the hon. member has put up here tonight [Interjections.] The hon. member for Durban Point should understand now that he is no longer a back-bencher in this House. He now sits in a front bench with the responsible position of being a leader, or professing to be a leader, of a political party. [Interjections.] If he wants to hold that position he must appear in this House with the necessary dignity … [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

Order! We cannot all talk at the same time. Hon. members should please give the hon. member a chance.

The hon. member should appear in this House knowledgeable, with proper advice from his advisers and he should present a reasonable case. If he has criticisms to level about the SABC or the television service or any other broadcast, he should do it in a reasonable way so that we can debate the matter. However, what we had from the hon. member for Umhlanga and the hon. member for Durban Point, was just a tirade of wild accusations with no substantiation whatsoever. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Durban Point quoted a couple of headlines from the Sunday Times to substantiate his argument and to build the case that the TV services of South Africa are no good.

Will you debate it with him on TV?

They make wild statements such as that we make blatant political abuse of a public utility. Where is that blatant political abuse? Surely the SABC and the TV services of the SABC are, in their political reports … [Interjections.] I listened to hon. members when they talked and now they should listen to me.

The Parliamentary reports are good; I exclude them.

Now we have the hon. member for Durban Point trying to pull back what he said. He now admits that the Parliamentary reports are very good, and so they are, but he made wild accusations and there were no exceptions in the accusations he made. The hon. member for Umhlanga described the SABC as an evil instrument. It is quite clear that if the accusations by the hon. member for Umhlanga are true, that it utilizes its time to indoctrinate the people and the viewers of South Africa, it has certainly failed miserably, because it has failed to indoctrinate the hon. member for Umhlanga to take even a reasonable approach.

The political reports of the SABC have dealt mainly with international affairs and have dealt, to a very large extent, with the communist penetration in Africa. These reports have been factual and I agree and admit that political commentators do, to a certain extent, from time to time give an expression of their own opinions. I am not going to mention names, but my colleague here, the hon. member for Benoni, is recognized as one of the finest political commentators on any broadcasting network in the world. [Interjections.] I am prepared to concede, however, that they do from time to time express their own opinions. They do so like any other news media. Why should the SABC be barred from making a comment on communist penetration in Africa when every other news medium in South Africa is permitted to do so? In my view it is the responsibility of the SABC to put a pro-South African point of view. It is also their responsibility to put the policies of the Government of the day before the people, particularly as far as foreign policy is concerned. [Interjections.] In spite of everything the two hon. members have said the SABC has neither commented nor put forward any viewpoint in regard to any political party in South Africa at any time and I challenge hon. members to give one single example of that. This is common practice in the broadcasting corporations of the world. I want to ask the Opposition and I want a straight answer from them: Have they any objection to the views ever expressed by my hon. friend for Benoni as a political commentator on the SABC in regard to attacking communist policies in Africa and pointing out the dangers of those policies and commenting on them, as far as Government action is concerned, to combat the danger here in South Africa? Do hon. members have any objection to that?

Table your question.

That is what happens when they are faced with reality. Do they not want the South African public to be advised of communist aggression in Africa?

Nobody said that.

Do they not want the South African public to be able to assess these dangers, to realize and to recognize the steps that the Government have taken to combat them?

You must have a better policy to combat them.

Those members opposite say there has been an over-exposure of Cabinet Ministers, but I wonder whether they object to the Carters, the Youngs and the Vances occupying time on independent TV in the USA, or is it their argument that the Fords and the Kissingers, who have disappeared from the scene, must have more time on American TV? When a Minister appears on a TV screen, he speaks for the Government and not for a political party. [Interjections.] If I have any criticisms to make about overexposure, I should say that as far as the last election is concerned, there was underexposure of the hon. member for Durban Point and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. There are these organizations that test and assess viewers’ reactions and I wonder whether the hon. members made any assessment about this. It is my regret that they did not have over-exposure on television because if they had had over-exposure there would not have been an Opposition in the House. They would have disappeared altogether.

If the hon. member for Durban Point had made any test outside amongst the viewing public or had hired any public relations firm to give an assessment of what the reaction of the South African public was when he appeared on the television screen, he would have got a shock. Let me say quite frankly to the hon. member for Durban Point that he and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition appeared to many television viewers as a bad show and the public just pressed the “off’ switch on their television sets when they appeared. [Interjections.] In other words, they just do not have any viewer public whatsoever on television.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member how often the viewers had the opportunity to press the “off” button when I was on television?

It is the right of any viewer in his own home to press that button and the majority did so when the hon. member appeared on television.

In the time left to me I should like to say that when we speak in the House or on any of the services of the SABC I believe we try—I hope I do—to reflect the views of an average viewer. We are not technicians and we try to react in the way we feel. I believe that the board of the SABC and the programmes that have been broadcast on the various channels, particularly those on the television service, comply in the main with the code that has been laid down many years ago in the Broadcasting Act. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Von Brandis replied most effectively to certain allegations made by hon. members opposite on the television issue.

In the first place I want to react to the speech by the hon. member for Umhlanga. Among other things, the hon. member said about the Artes evening: “SABC must have gone crackers.” We have a saying that one judges others by oneself. The hon. member for Umhlanga is not in the House at the moment but I want to say to him …

He will be coming in a moment; perhaps you can speak to him a little later.

Then out of politeness I shall wait until the hon. member returns. In the meantime I shall react to the weighty opinion expressed here this evening by the hon. member for Durban Point. In contrast to his weighty opinion I now want to quote from an article entitled “Adventurous SABC surprises Nigel Murphy” which appeared in the Sunday Times of 26 February 1978. After all, Nigel Murphy is a person who can speak with authority about these matters. The report reads—

[Interjections.] In contrast to people like these who can speak with authority, these hon. members now come along with such allegations. If the hon. member for Durban Point wants to put a question, I shall afford him the opportunity to do so.

Won’t you read the front page headline?

The hon. member can read it himself if he wants to. [Interjections.] The hon. member now wants me to bedevil a good debate by reading him the comic strips. [Interjections.] I now want to administer the coup de grâce to the hon. member with one blow. The people in the Press gallery calculated how much television time each party ought to be given proportionately in accordance with their numbers. It was calculated that for every hour of television time, the governing party should get 49 minutes, the Official Opposition six minutes, the NRP four minutes and the SAP one minute, on the basis of their representation in the House of Assembly. Now that the hon. member for Umhlanga is back in the House I want to tell him that I should very much like to invite him to appear on television tomorrow evening …

I shall accept it.

… in the “Brady Bunch”. [Interjections.] I have not the slightest doubt that the public would enjoy it tremendously. Furthermore I shall also definitely see to it that that hon. member receives the SABC’s Artes Award next year “for the Parliamentarian who went crackers before he came to Parliament”. I think that would be a very well deserved Artes Award.

More seriously, I want to say that the broad motivation of standpoint journalism is the argument—it is an internationally accepted one—that national news media cannot adopt a neutral stance as regards principles and values accepted by the community, nor can it remain neutral in regard to threats to the existence of the community. This is a reasonable and internationally acceptable standpoint. What are the Opposition doing, the more they discuss this matter? They are only making it obvious that they are totally out of touch with the community and the values of the community. I can say without the slightest doubt that the SABC is doing everything in its power—whether those hon. members want to hear it or not—to give a faithful rendition of the values of our community and to give all people, including the Opposition parties, a fair opportunity to appear on radio and television programmes. If they do not want to accept this, but instead carry on with unfair and facetious attacks of this nature on the SABC, then in the long term they will only achieve one thing—I have not the slightest doubt about that—and that is to do the public a growing disservice and to fall into disfavour among the public of South Africa to an increasing extent, because it is not the SABC and television that is out of step but the Opposition in South Africa. It is they who need to get into step.

One of the most important spheres in which television has already shown its mettle, is the presentation of news. It has been found overseas that the presentation of news on this medium can easily get into the rut of a search for violent action. For example, television in the USA in the ‘sixties in particular, in its slavish pursuit of action, permitted minority groups to acquire a disproportionate grip on television news coverage, because they intentionally fanned the flames of uprisings and demonstrations by artificial means with the exclusive aim of getting television coverage. The lesson which that country learned thereby was that it was not good television practice merely to turn the cameras onto those who shouted loudest and acted most strangely merely because that was where the most action was taking place and because television’s major need is for action.

Who wrote that?

I myself. Those reflecting the news become the newsmakers. Now I can understand very well why those hon. members become so eloquent about these matters.

Tell that to the Civil Rights League.

Order!

It is because they ought to be the newsmakers, but because they are not the newsmakers—by virtue of the fact that they are not oriented towards being the newsmakers—that they attack those who reflect the news, and that is absolutely unfair. The hon. member for Groote Schuur asked who this was written by. In 1968 I was in the USA for three months to study developments there. At that time a congressional television committee was in session and it was my privilege to attend the discussions which took place there, for a period of two days. I left there with the hearfelt conviction that we should not make the same mistake in our country which that committee had found they had made in the USA—as I have indicated here from what I have put forward—namely that television is simply geared solely for action. Let me tell hon. members that they know this full well: Seen objectively, the presentation of news on television is one of the major achievements in the Republic of South Africa. If hon. members do not want to believe me, I want to quote to them what The Sunday Tribune had to say about the credibility of the news presentations in its 21 August 1977 edition. In it they say that the SABC news service has built up a credibility which is highly regarded by the public. The article reads—

That is not difficult.

You tell that to your Press establishment. In a survey to determine the attitude of English-speaking people carried out in 1974 by the 1820 Settlers National Foundation, it was found that the majority of English-speaking people were of the opinion that the SABC presents the most reliable and unprejudiced reporting of politics in South Africa of all the news media. 42% of the people questioned—and these were English-speaking people questioned by the 1820 Settlers movement—gave the SABC first place as against 31% who gave the English-language Press first place. A recent survey carried out by the department of journalism and Rhodes University, indicated that the majority of students regarded television as the most reliable medium for political news in South Africa, with radio in second place and then, thirdly, the printed word. These attitudes are indirectly endorsed by the relative popularity of television news among television viewers. According to projections based on scientific random tests, television has an audience among White adults of close to 1½ million for each of its main bulletins. There is nothing else in the country that comes anywhere near that figure. Of those who have expressed their opinions about the SABC, more than 85% adopt the standpoint that SABC-TV gives its audience reliable information. Against the background of these powerful facts I want to tell the hon. member for Durban Point this evening that I, as the Minister responsible, am also sensitive to matters of this nature, just as the SABC itself is. After debates in this House I have asked the SABC to ensure that there is fair presentation of news in South Africa in regard to all the parties. I told them that they should give the Opposition time on television in proportion to what they deserve. I can give hon. members the assurance that that is what the SABC does. I myself will look at this matter from time to time. I repeat: Since we are trying to do all this, the Opposition should for once seriously ask themselves whether they are really in touch with the community of the Republic of South Africa, or whether television itself is into more in touch as far as these matters are concerned.

What about a debate on the subject? Can we not conduct a debate on that?

I want to say here and now to the hon. member for Durban Point that in view of what I told him here about what has happened in the USA, he must surely understand that these matters have already been very thoroughly investigated by a commission of enquiry, a commission which publishes an outstanding report. I would prefer—and in that sense I shall accept the hon. member’s challenge—that we conduct an in-depth debate on that report in this House, a report which goes into these matters fully. Experience elsewhere in the world has proved that it would be an evil day when a country permitted politics to be carried on flagrantly on its television service. [Interjections.] It is certainly not the right thing to do, and therefore I say—I am a man who runs away from nothing—that we should conduct an in-depth debate in this House on reports and on expert advice available in connection with this matter. Let us then consider in scientific fashion whether news in South Africa is presented objectively. Let us as a responsible House review this whole matter in that way.

However, what is happening now? Let us again deal with the Artes evening to which the hon. member for Bloemfontein North referred here. Hon. members themselves know what criticism and what a wealth of publicity the Artes evening received. I do not want to praise the Artes evening too highly. That is unnecessary. I was there, and personally I enjoyed it. It is true that the programme took a little long. [Interjections.] That is quite true.

What did it cost?

I shall tell the hon. member what it cost in a moment. Sir, I must say that the hon. member for Groote Schuur has been blessed with the ability to make one extremely angry! [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

Mr. Chairman, one really needs to have mercy not to say what one thinks. [Interjections.] In any event, I shall refrain from saying what I think. [Interjections.] What I do want to say, however, is …

Order! Will hon. members please give the hon. the Minister a chance to complete his speech. The hon. the Minister listened in total silence while hon. members were speaking. I call upon hon. members to give the hon. the Minister a chance now, and that applies in particular to the hon. member for Groote Schuur.

[Inaudible.]

If the hon. member for Groote Schuur wants to put a question to the hon. the Minister, I am sure he will answer it.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I do want to put the following question to the hon. the Minister. Will the hon. the Minister give us the exact cost of that programme?

If the hon. member had only remained seated I should have done so, because I was on the point of doing so. [Interjections.] I was referring to the hon. member for Bloemfontein North, who raised the whole issue of the Artes evening here. I was also saying that the programme was perhaps a little on the long side, but that I personally enjoyed the evening a great deal nevertheless. It received favourable reports and there were also less favourable reports. Everyone has the right to his own opinion. No one in his senses can say that the Artes evening was really bad. It was an evening which really did Cape Town credit. If we look at it objectively, it was an evening which really redounded to the credit of everyone involved. Now hon. members want to know what it cost. It cost the SABC R113 000, an amount which compares favourably with the cost of other television programmes of the same length. That is apart from the substantial advantage it entailed for people who have been devoting their time and energies for years to the building up of the Republic of South Africa, while hon. members of the Opposition have been asleep, people who rightfully benefited that evening by duly receiving Artes awards for what they have done. [Interjections.] I hope that the hon. member for Groote Schuur has received a reply which satisfies him.

However, I do not want to elaborate on this matter for too long. I should prefer to conclude now. I think that I have now replied to all the questions put to me by hon. members, except …

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister not to talk about news debates but to tell us whether he is prepared to give permission for a television programme to be arranged in which politics may be debated? [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I have already said to the hon. member for Durban Point that I am prepared to have an in-depth debate in this Parliament concerning expert advice which has been obtained on this matter, both in South Africa and elsewhere in the world. I am willing that we should discuss what we should do by way of a debate here in this House. I am prepared to do that. However, I am not prepared to go any further than that. If the hon. member wants to accept my challenge in this regard, then we can conduct a debate here at the appropriate time.

So you want a one-party TV service?

I now wish to conclude. Unfortunately the hon. member for Green Point is not in the House at present. However, someone has tendered apologies on his behalf. I want to reply to that hon. member by drawing a comparison between two speeches made here this evening: His and the speech by the hon. member for Heilbron. The hon. member for Heilbron made a vigorous speech here, a speech which really does this House credit. Briefly, it was a humdinger of a speech. It displayed all the force one associates with manliness. In contrast, the hon. member for Green Point came along here with a speech which can only be described as impotent, as impotent as can be, and moreover, so tolerant of all things, good or bad, that it was not only colourless but also powerless. I find no pleasure in comparing these two speeches. However, I draw the comparison as a reply to both of the speeches. Of course we are tolerant. Nor do I think that I am the symbol of the man on this side of the House who is among the least tolerant of people. To tell the truth, I think that the record will back me up when I say that I am really quite tolerant. But there is really a limit to tolerance. If one is too tolerant, one lacks force, one is impotent and insignificant. That is clearly where that Opposition is heading. If tolerance is not coupled with norms, it means absolutely nothing. Then one is on the way to nowhere, and one is not only impotent but rotten as well. This debate bears the stamp of the will to build, and no one expressed this better here this evening than the hon. member for Rissik, when he said that the whole debate was a constructive one. But the more this side of the House tried to be constructive in conjunction with the Opposition, the more those members of the Official Opposition showed themselves to be destructive.

I want to conclude. The hon. member for Heilbron reminded me of what Plato had to say about education so many years ago. He said that education was the basis of the State, but the ultimate aim, and the ultimate essence, of education is the building of character which must be achieved through discipline of the body, discipline of the will and discipline of the mind. That is my reply to the hon. member for Green Point: Character-building is the discipline of the will, of the body and of the mind. That is how things have been built up through the centuries, and this nation, our nation, wants to do so too.

†True education makes for inequality, the inequality of individuality, the inequality of success, the glorious inequality of talent, of genius, for inequality, not mediocrity—which in my opinion was that hon. member’s plea this evening—individual superiority, not standardization, is the measure of the progress of the world, and that is also the measure of the progress of the National Government and the measure of the progress of by far the majority of the people of the Republic of South Africa. The sooner the Opposition learns this simple lesson, the better for them and for the Republic of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, it is rather a pity that the hon. the Minister, when he read to us from that newspaper, failed to comply with the request of the hon. member for Durban Point to read the headline on the front page as well, because it reads “My love, my grief”. I should say that it would be an appropriate headline tomorrow morning when this debate is reported: The love of the hon. the Minister—SATV—and the grief of the Opposition—the fact that they cannot share in it. I want to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. member for Durban Point…

He is beginning to see the light! [Interjections.]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with him that the Opposition members should have a share in those programmes. I want to add, however, that I wonder whether it was not possibly a wise thing that this did not happen during the past election. When I consider the actions of the two parties on my right, I come to the conclusion that they have already succeeded adequately in confusing the Opposition voters during the past election. If they had that opportunity, they would have confused the Opposition voters even further and have convinced more voters to vote for the NP.

What about the SAP?

The hon. member asks me, “What about the SAP?” This is the only Opposition party which did not confuse voters, but which remained consistent. We have been consistent in our policy.

In a more serious vein, I should like to return to the theme of this debate. The theme today was: “We are building our future.” Several hon. members, as well as the hon. the Minister himself, dealt with this theme. The hon. member for Berea even referred to the UP Youth Organization of which he was a member, and which had the motto: “Ons bou/We build.” The hon. member for Durban Central and the hon. member for Bezuidenhout as well as I myself were members of that organization. As a matter of fact, the hon. member for Bezuidenhout was its founder. If we should build up education in South Africa, as we built that organization, we should rather not build at all, for after 30 years that organization—and now I am referring to both parties on my right—can show us only the ruins of that which they have been building. I myself was a member of that organization.

Let us return, however, to the advancement of education and the matter of building the future of South Africa. We have wonderful facilities for our young people. There are academic facilities. There are also facilities for those who wish to undergo vocational training. This evening, however, I want to plead the cause of a section of our community that is unable to utilize the academic facilities or the vocational training facilities which exist. Some of those people do have the potential to be useful citizens in future. They do not get the opportunity to equip themselves, however, and consequently they lead an aimless life and as a result of their frustration, they cannot really accomplish anything. I am talking of those people without adequate school training to be able to use the academic or technical training facilities which are available. In this regard I should like to refer briefly this evening to the institution for the training of adults at Westlake. This institution has rendered wonderful services over the past 10 years. The results have been excellent and the institution has grown. Unfortunately, however, this institution is the only one of its kind in South Africa.

If we consult the annual report of the Department of National Education, we see that this institution received approximately 800 applications for admission to the institution and that only 178 of those applications were successful. It is pointed out in the report that this is attributable to unemployment and to the fact that some of the applicants have a poor working record. All of this goes hand in hand with the fact that some of these people do not have the opportunity to receive further training. It is as a result of this that they have a poor working record. I want to ask the department to investigate the possibility of establishing more institutions of this kind in South Africa. I personally believe that this kind of training facility should be established in every major centre in the country. One also sees in the report that the course in the motor department at this institution has been expanded to include diesel mechanics. As far as the motor department is concerned, I should say that Port Elizabeth should really be the place where such a training centre should be, as we have motor car factories there. So much for that, Mr. Chairman. I believe an investigation should be conducted into the question as to whether such institutions cannot be established in all centres. We also notice in the report that the allowance has been increased. This, of course, makes it easier for newly-weds who wish to undergo further training. I believe it will obviously be easier for them if they could be trained nearer home. At present people have to come from far afield to receive training at Westlake. If we could have similar institutions in all the major centres, for example, many more people will be able to make use of such institutions. Then we shall really be able to build the future of our people. This applies not only to those with an academic or technical aptitude, but also to those whose school training was not adequate to enable them to use the existing facilities.

I hope the hon. the Minister and his department will investigate this matter to see whether these facilities cannot be extended to other centres.

Mr. Chairman, not one single member of the NRP, nor one single member of the PFP, could be nominated for an Artes Award tonight. Now they are terribly disappointed that they did not get an award. They simply could not be nominated because there was nothing they could say to us. The hon. member for Umhlanga spoke about the programme “Op die Weegskaal”. I want to assure him, however, that he has been weighed and found wanting. For that reason we have learned nothing further from these people tonight.

Since the Director-General of the SABC, Mr. J. N. Swanepoel, is present here, we should like to congratulate him sincerely and thank him for the very fine television and radio programmes which he presents to us. It is a greater achievement than hon. members think. Hon. members can go through the report, but I should like to refer to page 11 in particular. On that page we find the following—

In spite of what the hon. member for Durban Point said, it has therefore been possible to keep the local content of the programme at a 60% level.

I should like to confine myself tonight to the religious programmes which are presented. I believe that the key to preparedness, and ultimately to survival—as the hon. the Minister has stated—is to be found specifically in the wonderful religious programmes which are presented to us. This is something beautiful to which we can refer tonight.

Before the coming of television there was talk of the “wireless” church as if there were no link with this church. Through television and the radio a new spirit has arisen among our people today. I should like to express my gratitude for that, because I know what sacrifices this work entails.

This can be inferred from the fact that 134 church services have already been directly transmitted from churches. I want to express my gratitude for the excellent programme “Ontwaak my Siel” of which 56 programmes have already been broadcast. I am also grateful for the 673 morning and evening meditations, for the 310 morning services and the nine Whitsun meditations which were broadcast.

In particular I should like to thank Robert Schmidt, Fanie Smit and also Bettie Kemp, who give us the programmes called “Boekevat”, “Ligstraaltjies” and “Op die Weegskaal”.

I am also grateful for the documentary programmes on our historical church buildings, and I hope it can be extended further. In addition there are the 313 worship programmes. I have quickly added them up and they amount to a total of 1 498 broadcasts. They are aimed at strengthening the moral fortitude of our people. I also want to mention the topical programmes presented, as well as the features. I should also like to mention the programmes “Wat sê die Bybel?”, “Die Blye Boodskap” and the musical programme “Alle Volkere loof die Here”. It is these religious-background programmes which make life worth living for us. Furthermore there are the ministers’ courses, which represent a new phase of development. These courses were presented through the radio and they were attended by 165 ministers in order to prepare themselves in this manner.

I should also like to express my gratitude to the people who present the English programmes for the quality of their programmes. Hon. members sometimes allege that the English programmes are bad, but in my opinion the English programmes, including the religious programmes, are of a very high standard. The Sunday Times alleges that certain programmes like “Crossroads” have been running for two years and they would like to know why they are not terminated.

†Tonight I want to pay tribute to the variety of interviews, the discussions that have taken place, the music programmes and also to people like Bill Chalmers, Willemjan van der Laag and Wendy Leith who really brought us a wonderful selection of Christian literature. Wendy Leith once wrote the following and I feel I have to mention it here tonight—

*We should accordingly like to pay tribute tonight to these believing Christians who have the courage of their convictions to profess their belief in Christ on TV and the radio as well. Hon. members would be surprised to see the letters flowing in from people who never go to church but who are eventually evangelized by the radio and TV programmes. I believe this is a wonderful opportunity which is afforded us and we can only have the greatest appreciation for it. It is this spirit which will contribute to our eventual survival and which will enable us to overcome our problems and to inherit this land.

Yesterday I had the wonderful opportunity, the honour and the privilege to escort members of the mini town council of Johannesburg to the Prime Minister and to the hon. the Minister of National Education. I wish hon. members could have heard the beautiful speeches which those young primary school children made. They said, inter alia, that this was our country and that we were going to survive in the end. Their sympathetic attitude of our hon. Prime Minister, our hon. Minister of National Education and other leaders is that since these children have so much faith in our country, we dare not leave them in the lurch in this regard. What is more inspiring than to look at a child? What is more beautiful than to see a little child lying in the cradle? What is more pleasant than to look at a toddler? What is more soothing than to see a child entering the school grounds for the first time? What is more beautiful than eventually to see the child leaving when the school gates are closed, having completed his studies? What is more inspiring than to watch the young student equipping himself in the technical and academic world and excelling in his subsequent career? What fills one with more idealism than the teachers fulfilling their calling with the greatest dedication?

This Department of National Education, with people like Dr. Van Wyk, who is sitting over there, tries to elevate the relationship of the child towards the parent, the parent towards the teacher, the child towards the teacher and the teacher towards the child.

We know that the hon. the Minister, too, is a man of deeply-held religious beliefs and we pray that he may be granted the power to involve, through the child, the parents and the teacher. When he has involved the parents, the child and the teacher, we shall be assured of our survival. He can help us to ensure “that the heritage of our fathers for our children yet may be”.

Whether it be done through the medium of education, television or the radio, it is once again taken from the Great Book of the Great Teacher in which it is said, inter alia, that if one does not become like a child, one will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and this is in my opinion the lesson we should find in national education.

Mr. chairman, in reply to what the previous speaker said, I want to bring two facts pointedly to the attention of the hon. the Minister and the Committee. The first is that we want to know whether a surfeit of faces of Cabinet Ministers was seen on TV screens during October and November of last year. This is a very simple question to answer if we look at the statistics. The hon. the Minister can instruct the Board of the SABC to give us the figures of the number of seconds, minutes or hours Cabinet Ministers appeared on the television screen.

Do you have nothing better to talk about?

The survey can be done for the months of, for example, August and September—in other words, prior to the announcement of the general election—for the months of October and November, which was election time, and then, finally, for the month of December.

Uncle Kowie, how many judgments are still pending?

It is not a question of us wanting to lay a charge of direct propaganda against the SABC. We do not want to say that any Cabinet Minister appear on the television screen and defend NP policy. That is not the argument, nor is it the grounds of our objection. The argument is that it is the impression of the public that a surfeit of Cabinet Ministers appeared on the television screen during the months of October and November. As I said on a previous occasion, it seemed as though a collection had been made of bridges, roads, dams and even traffic circles for opening in the period October/ November. That is the impression I gained. Let the hon. the Minister make a statistical survey of what happened.

The second fact I want to mention, is that it should be clear to the general listeners and viewers public as a whole that the Board and the top structure of the SABC is impartial in the sense that it includes people who are pro-Government, anti-Government and neutral. If we can say to the public that the hon. the Minister was not at all interested in the political views of these people at the time when he appointed them, we can go to the public and tell them that their mistrust is unfounded. That is a fact we are after. If we do not have this fact, we cannot judge.

The third fact which is important to me as far as the television service and the SABC in general are concerned, is that it is a monopoly. The hon. the Minister and many other speakers referred to the conditions in America, Great Britain, Western Germany or whichever country it may be. In all those countries there are a large number of channels from which the ordinary viewer can choose. The viewer does not have to look at channel No. 1, 2 or 3; there are other channels as well. In most cities of America there are up to 11 different channels from which one can choose. [Interjections.] On account of economic considerations we in South Africa have one channel only and that imposes a very heavy obligation on the Government, the Board and the top echelon of the management of the SABC to ensure that the confidence of the general viewers and listeners public is retained.

I have a few seconds left in which I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to another fact. The hon. members will probably be disappointed, but I want to refer to a matter which is not of a party political or contentious nature. It concerns the position of the plastic arts in South Africa as against that of the performing arts. [Interjections.] Now some members on the opposite side are laughing. They, of course, have no idea whatsoever what I am talking about.

You must not think that you are so superior. [Interjections.]

The hon. choirmaster of Rissik may well keep quiet for a moment, because I did not interrupt him when he was speaking.

Yes, but you are not so superior!

The budget before the Committee does not differentiate between what is going to be allocated to the plastic arts and what is going to be allocated to the performing arts. When we analyse the report of the Department, however, it becomes clear that there is an enormous gap. The total amount allocated to the plastic arts in 1977 came to R3 216 000. There are four art galleries in which the plastic arts are represented, i.e. the National Art Gallery in Cape Town, the Old Townhouse in Cape Town in which the Michaelis collection is housed, Engelenburg House in Pretoria in which the Engelenburg House collection is housed, the William Humphreys Art Gallery in Kimberley and Rust-en-Vreugd in Cape Town in which the William Fehr collection is housed. The amount voted in respect of the plastic arts totals R573 000. This is not an amount which is directly involved in the creation of contemporary art. It is used to a large extent to maintain and exhibit collections of old works of art. An amount of between R30 000 and R50 000 has been made available for the development of modern art. I cannot calculate the exact amount, because all the figures are not available. In my opinion there is too great a difference between the amount of less than R0,75 million spent on the plastic arts and the amount of more than R3 million spent on the performing arts.

It is true, of course, that the performing arts attract much larger audiences and is much more popular. In other words, they meet a much greater need than the plastic arts. But there is another difference. Our achievement in the cultural field overseas depends largely on our plastic arts, for example, by means of exhibitions in Sao Paulo every other year as well as exhibitions elsewhere. In other words, the encouragement of artists in South Africa can have an almost direct favourable influence on the image we show to the outside world. We talk about survival. Professor Viljoen said recently that the quality of our cultural life was one of the best reasons why we could lay claim to the right of survival.

Mr. Chairman, I want to reply to the arguments of a number of hon. members who participated in the debate at a later stage.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central dealt with Westlake and the training of artisans. There is no doubt whatsoever that Westlake is an excellent institution. Some of my most pleasant experiences were to see the fine achievements at Westlake. I want to tell the hon. member that the training is given by our department in conjunction with the Department of Labour. At the moment we are giving serious consideration to the establishment of a similar institution in the Transvaal. We are keeping a close watch on the situation. As soon as the economy of our country improves, both departments will extend that service to the Transvaal—in other words, if we have the financial means to do so. It is very expensive training since the students are in receipt of allowances paid by the Department of Labour. I am grateful to the hon. member for having raised the matter. The course of events will be as I have just indicated. I am very interested in this matter. If we can be instrumental in extending these services, we shall be doing the country a special service. The hon. member made a fine contribution and I thank him for that.

I want to thank the hon. member for Rosettenville most sincerely for having referred to a very important subject i.e. religion and the news media. Of course, it is a very important matter which the hon. member raised. At this stage I merely want to thank the hon. member for this fine, pure note he introduced into the debate this evening.

A survey such as the one mentioned by the hon. member for Johannesburg North has already been conducted by the SABC. The statistics kept with regard to the period of concentrated politics—the months to which the hon. member referred—since the announcement of the election up to election day, show that the SABC maintained a fair balance between the various parties as far as coverage of the election campaign was concerned.

What about actual time?

On television 39% of the number of items presented about the election campaign dealt with the views of the NP, as compared to 61% which reflected the views of the Opposition parties. The 61% was made up as follows: NRP, 24%; PFP, 24%; SAP, 5% and HNP, 8%. On the radio, too, attempts were made to maintain this balance.

Do you believe that?

In the election reviews, for instance, 51% …

Come to the point.

Order!

I am coming to the point. I am, in fact, trying to reply to the hon. member. [Interjections.]

Order!

Just give me a chance. I am coming to the point which the hon. member made. In the election reviews—of which recordings were made and statistics were kept—51% of the reports in which views were stated, reflected the views of the NP. The NP put up 51,5% of the candidates. Therefore 51% was a fair proportion. This should be compared to the 49% of the reports in which the views of the Opposition were reflected. The Joint Opposition put up 48,5% of the candidates. That is why I maintain that the SABC has built up a news service which has credibility. These are facts which I have given hon. members. They do not have to like them, and I assume that they do not like them, but as sure as fate, one cannot get away from facts, just as hon. members cannot get away from the fact that the hon. member for Yeoville is very unhappy in that Opposition. If he is not unhappy, we are underestimating the hon. member’s capabilities.

A final thing the hon. member for Johannesburg North said, was that Ministers were appearing more often on television and that they opened bridges, roads and all manner of things during those months. During debates last year and again this year when we discussed the motion on the SABC, I pointed out ad nauseam, that because of the fact that a Minister was the head of a department and as a result of the office held by him—not necessarily the person—a certain amount of newsworthiness was involved, and those hon. members cannot reason that away; in fact, nobody can.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

The House adjourned at 10.30 p.m.