Mr. Speaker, I move—

Mr. Speaker, we shall possibly have another half an hour available to us after the Post Office Budget has been disposed of this evening. We shall use that for the resumption of the Second Reading debate on the Co-ordination of Housing Matters Bill.

†Tomorrow and Friday we shall deal with the Secret Services Account Bill, the Pension Laws Amendment Bill, the Prisons Amendment Bill, the Medical Schemes Amendment Bill and the Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions Amendment Bill, in the order in which they have been mentioned. Before the House adjourns tomorrow evening, we shall deal with the motion of the hon. member for Orange Grove on the Order Paper.

*On Friday the House will continue with the discussion of legislation. The intention is to adjourn the House at 12h40 for the Easter recess.

When the House reassembles on Tuesday, 28 March, legislation will have priority and precedence will be given to the Moratorium Amendment Bill and the Defence Amendment Bill.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, in his reply to the Second Reading debate, made reference to the Franzsen Commission’s recommendations, and intimated that I had not based my arguments on those recommendations. In fact, the hon. the Minister will recall that at the very outset of my speech I did in fact make reference to them and to the formula. The position now, which stands at 59,9% as against 40,1%, is perilously close to the situation to which I referred. What I did say to the hon. the Minister was that a considerable amount of fat had been built into the budget. I have been criticized by hon. members for making that statement, but one cannot estimate entirely accurately what the position is, and one is forced to gaze into a crystal ball as far as this is concerned. The most lucrative aspect of this budget is the telephone service, in respect of which a profit of R71,2 million is estimated. In respect of these telephone services we estimate that the operating expenditure will amount to R455 million as against R393 million last year. This represents an increase of R62 million. We estimate that the revenue this year will be R526 million as against R473 million last year, which represents an extra R53 million. Whereas last year we were, in terms of the estimates, hoping for a surplus of R80 million, we are now hoping for a surplus of only R71 million. I do not think we will be wrong in saying that that amount of R71 million will be considerably exceeded. It is a common practice in some circles to underestimate revenue and overestimate expenditure. That is where the criticism comes in.

In addition, I made a reference to an amount of R72,9 million which is a source of finance for capital expenditure. That was in fact a reference to an amount of money on call. I asked the hon. the Minister a question in this regard, and I have not yet had a reply to the question. I asked him whether this was not in fact a nest egg, and whether, in respect of this amount, we had not taken a certain amount from the money on deposit with the Public Debt Commissioners, which was earning interest, which would mean that the R72 million does not in fact represent the entire amount.

An hon. member on this side of the House referred to the question of a stabilization fund. This is an interesting suggestion, but I understand from the report of the Franzsen Commission that when one builds in this formula, one is in fact building in a stabilization fund each year in order to prevent an increase in tariffs. Nevertheless this is a matter which does bear investigation.

There is another matter to which I want to refer in passing. The hon. the Minister referred to the actions of the Johannesburg City Council in so far as the closing of the wage gap is concerned. I do not want to drag matters relating to that organization into debates of this House, but I do want to point out that the hon. the Minister must be well aware of the fact that it was in fact his colleagues in the Cabinet who prevented the closing of that wage gap. It is they who would not grant the part refund subsidies in respect of all the posts for which subsidies could be granted had the wage gap been closed. Permission could not be obtained for this to be done. The hon. member for Rustenburg also made a reference to the Johannesburg City Council. He referred to the question of the provision of lights in Soweto. If he had consulted his colleagues, he would have been told that it was the policy of his side not to provide facilities, comforts or the funds required for the lighting in Soweto. As for the hon. member for Wonderboom, let me not say that he is heartless because I am sure he is not, but when I appealed to have telephones installed along the national roads, it was not a window-dressing operation. It was suggested with the intention of saving lives. So I am sure the hon. member was not thinking when he described it in those terms.

The hon. the Minister has made reference to the R7,5 million bonus, which has been received with great acclaim by this side of the House. The hon. the Minister, in his speech, said, and I quote—

The bonus announcement has certainly been well received. We are happy that the hon. the Minister is providing it, but it nevertheless does raise certain questions, and these are questions I should like to put to the hon. the Minister. What members of the staff are going to receive the bonus of R7,5 million? We are happy that top management is not going to take any of the R7,5 million. There are, however, people who work 40, 42, 44, 46 and 48 hours a week with or without extra remuneration. There are people who are voluntary workers and there are people who are part-time workers. There are also various categories of White, Coloured, Indian and Black workers. How does the hon. the Minister therefore intend to spread the R7,5 million bonus amongst all the workers in the Post Office? Will it be given to only a section of the workers or will it be fairly and proportionally spread in relation to the salaries earned since each and every worker in the Post Office is a wage-earner? I sincerely hope that that is the case.

I think this might be deemed to be a kind of precedent, though I do not know. I am open to correction and I shall apologize if I am wrong. Is there any other department in the Government that has introduced a bonus scheme such as this? How does this fit in with the views of the Public Service Commission? Are they, for example, perfectly happy with this bonus scheme? Does the Public Service Commission not have any problems relating to all the other employees in departments of the Government or the provinces? Does it perhaps create a precedent which could embarrass the Public Service Commission? Does the Public Service Commission approve of it, and how does the granting of such a bonus to this department alone fit into the general scheme of things? Granted, we give the department full credit for having made such a promise and for having made the advances that the department has made. Will this, however, not create difficulties in the rest of the Government service? I therefore ask for this matter to be considered. I should like to have answers to those questions.

I should also like to refer to a number of other points in passing. One of the questions relates to telephone boxes. It has been said that 23 589 have been installed. It is said that the present policy is to install table-mounted telephones which I think the public appreciates. They are found in hotels, restaurants and places of that kind. My appeal here today, however, is for the provision of such telephones where they are most needed, and I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that they are most needed in military camps, to begin with. I wonder if the hon. the Minister is aware of the queues upon queues, the delays and the hours of patient waiting by soldiers in military camps throughout the country, soldiers trying to get through to their families, girl friends or whoever else they may want to phone. They have to wait in long queues for the use of telephones. Somebody in Kimberley waited three hours last night, for example, just to get to a telephone. He had to wait 3½ hours before he was even able to make a call. Such places should have top priority when it comes to the installation of these table-mounted telephones. They could be placed in the messes or other suitable spots in the military camps. I think this would be appreciated.

Then let me turn to another deserving category, the category of university students. On university campuses there is also a lack of telephones. I think the table-mounted type of telephone could well be installed there. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would consider giving the necessary attention to this.

In the short time to my disposal at this stage, there is another matter I should briefly like to mention. I am referring to telephone books. We do have an advertising contract with a firm which is doing its job very well. I think there is something like R12 million in the kitty for this purpose. 4,7 million copies were printed of the 16 directories. There are, however, two aspects about the directories I should like to bring to the hon. the Minister’s attention. Firstly, why can we not have, in the telephone directory, a list of the Cabinet members’ names and addresses, including an indication of their portfolios. I think members of the public and people in business and commerce will find this extremely useful. I also want to suggest, though perhaps hesitantly, that the names, addresses and telephone numbers of members of Parliament for the areas covered by the respective directories could be listed in the directories concerned under a separate section as well, so that the public will know how to get into contact with their MP which, I think, they quite often desire to do.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Hillbrow, at the end of his speech, made certain suggestions in connection with telephone directories. I can perhaps just add that South Africa is one of the few countries which has such a complete set of telephone directories. If one were to put together the telephone directories and roll them out, one would have no less than 104 000 km of paper. As opposed to that, one finds that in Russia the telephone directories are sold to the public, whereas Teheran and Cairo have no telephone directories at all. That shows how far South Africa has already progressed in the field of posts and telecommunications.

I should like to come back to certain Opposition speakers who during the Second Reading debate paid the Government the reproachful compliment that they had removed discrimination from the Post Office; the compliment that discrimination has been removed; and the reproach that discrimination ever existed in the Post Office. I want to ask whether there is a single person in this House who can deny that separation of counters and entrances at Post Offices was formerly necessary. Let us take a closer look at the matter. The purpose of this separation was surely not discrimination based on colour. It was a purposeful local arrangement to ensure discipline and orderliness of postal administration. Mutual human relationships were simply not as developed as they are today. The stage of development of people was simply not as advanced as it is today. Today, however, the picture has changed. New opportunities have been created. Development has taken place. Human relations have improved. The third important stage of the Government’s policy has begun, in terms of which friction which is caused by separation measures is also being removed from the Post Office.

That brings us to the actual main task of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. Its main task is to render a service to all the population groups in South Africa and it does this in quite an uncommon way by making its facilities available for joint use, which is really quite a new concept. Things are going quite smoothly, without any incidents or friction. One could hardly find a better example of this than the post offices in the Cape Peninsula and in particular the main post office in Cape Town. If one walks into the main post office in Cape Town today, one finds that at least five or six of the many counters are manned exclusively by Coloured clerks, and one has the choice to be served either by a White clerk or a Coloured clerk. The ratio is shifting. The important question is no longer whether one is served by a White or a Brown person, but rather the quality of the service which is being rendered, regardless of the colour of the person who renders that service. These arrangements work excellently. In practice they are running smoothly. The White, Brown and Black members of the Cape Town public accept this as the most natural thing under the sun. They accept it because it happens in an orderly manner and without incidents. They accept it because the implementation thereof is based on the sound principle of good discipline. They accept it because all, White, Brown and Black, want a part in it and are in fact doing it as their own contribution towards a smooth progress in relationships in South Africa.

However, one must never start too early with such arrangements. If they fail, they can cause chaos. On the other hand, one cannot start too late either, because then one is neglecting one’s duty and doing others an injustice. In other words, one can only take such an important step when the time for it is really ripe. Such a change in relationships does not set in overnight. One cannot achieve it overnight. The climate of relationships in South Africa first had to change. The feeling of inequality first had to vanish. Groups and nations had to stop feeling threatened, and fear of disorder had to vanish. That is why, in the implementation of the important third phase of the Government’s policy, we have now reached this important landmark in Posts and Telecommunications. I cannot imagine that there can be any other Government department in South Africa where the smooth and successful implementation of Government policy is being illustrated so clearly and explicitly. Nor, surely, is there any other Government department in this country which has so dynamically put words into action.

That does not mean, however, that the concept of separateness is being done away with. On the contrary, the Government, and therefore this department as well, consistently recognizes the principle that those areas which are inhabited exclusively by Brown people should be served exclusively by Brown staff. That is why one finds that in the Peninsula there are already five Brown postmasters Grade III. One could not find a better example of that than the Gatesville post office, because at the head of that office is a Brown postmaster Grade III with a Coloured staff of 90 under him. It is an exclusively Coloured community, an area inhabited exclusively by Coloured people, and they are served by Coloureds who have been trained to fill the highest positions. There is no reason whatsoever why Coloureds cannot, in the near future, progress even to positions of postmaster Grade II. There is no reason either why they cannot be trained as engineers to serve their own people. I believe that the Government is further proving its bona fides in respect of communications development, as far as it concerns the Brown people, by the modern pre-planning of telecommunication services in the giant cities of Atlantis and Mitchell’s Plain, which are now shooting up and from where hundreds, if not thousands, of additional applications for telephone services will be received within a few years. There is also no clearer proof of the Government’s bona fides than the training programme. One need merely look at the landmark which was reached in May 1977, when the first 11 Brown technicians—those are people with a training of three years after matric—completed their training. They were trained together with six Black people and seven Indians. One must compare this with the position as it was two years ago. Then there were not sufficient candidates to be trained as technicians, whereas now there is a waiting list.

The Coloured community has appreciation for this action and for the fact that this department has already trained 1 056 non-White technicians and electricians. That is the pride and also the ideal of the department. The end of this ideal, as far as training is concerned, is surely not in sight. What is admirable about this arrangement is that the technician who has been trained is not wrapped in a cocoon and instructed to work at one particular place only. It is rather a man who is being prepared and trained to serve South Africa. For that reason we are proud of the fact that the quality of those people who are being trained compares favourably with that of any other official in South Africa.

I want to conclude by saying that the Post Office, by merely performing its duty, by merely doing its work, by means of the implementation of its own domestic policy, sets the finest example of the practical effect of the development of the Government’s policy with regard to racial relations in South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Durbanville has elaborated on the third phase of the Government’s policy and I am looking forward to debating it with him on another occasion. I hope the hon. member will forgive me if I do not react to what he said this afternoon.

†The hon. member for Hillbrow appeared to be having a little difficulty in that his voters could not find his name in the phone book. I must say that we in this party do not seem to suffer from that disability at all. I have something like 18 telephone exchanges in my constituency, but they all find my name every time they look for it. It has been drawn to my attention that perhaps the hon. member’s problem is that the voters in Bezuidenhout have been looking for the ’phone number of the hon. member for Bezuidenhout in the Johannesburg phone book. They will have considerable difficulty in finding it there.

The matter which I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister this afternoon is one which I have raised with him in correspondence, and I have notified him that I shall be raising it again here this afternoon. I therefore hope that we will be able to achieve a meeting of minds on a subject which is of the most crucial importance to those voters in my constituency who are members of the commando there. I refer specifically to the question of a short-wave radio network which has been set up as a security network throughout virtually the whole of Natal and spread right out into East Griqualand so that there can be instant communication among the farming community in the light of circumstances which we all hope we shall not come to, but which might nevertheless be very close to us. I want to put the point to the hon. the Minister that in this situation, the telephone, which is accepted as a normal means of communication, is something that cannot be relied on. It cannot be relied on for reasons such as weather and sabotage. It cannot be relied upon to give the sort of security people in the rural areas want in this sort of situation. I would also like to draw to the hon. the Minister’s attention the fact that commando camps are called at regular intervals, and the farmers then leave their farms and their wives alone, so that there are many lonely farms left behind. It is felt by that commando movement, which is an extremely strong and important movement, that they are not prepared to leave their wives alone without some kind of system like this which gives them a reasonable chance of communicating with a central point which itself is in touch with the commando members who are in the camp. I would further like to draw to the hon. the Minister’s attention the fact that it has been circularized among members of the commando that notices of camps, will not in future, be sent by post. This is done for security reasons. If a commando camp should be called up out of the men in our district, the Karkloof, I think about five or six males would be left in that area over the whole of a weekend. Obviously that is a situation which one does not wish to advertise to the world abroad in the times that we live in.

I would also like to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention—I now have more information with regard to this aspect than I had in the past—to set up which has been put into operation by the farming community themselves under the auspices of the Natal Agricultural Union. The request was made to the hon. the Minister and his department that a certain number of channels should be made available on the 29 mHz band to the farming community for use while being busy with their commando practices. The hon. the Minister has given the obvious answer—I can fully understand his problem—that if they were to deal out all these channels to the farming community there, it would inhibit their use in other parts of the country or for any other purposes. A great deal of detailed thought has been put into the matter and the districts have been divided into sub-regions. In each of those sub-regions only certain channels have been allocated. The district of Mooi River, for instance, is divided into three regions. Not all 19 or 20 channels are made available to those people. Only a certain number in a certain area is made available to them. I would ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible to accede to the request from the point of view that, within the Mooi River district—let us deal with the Mooi River district divided as it is into two separate areas—there is a higher area and a lower area, i.e. the area to the north and the area to the south. In the higher area four channels have been allocated, i.e. Nos. 15, 16, 17 and 21. In the lower area channels Nos. 5, 7, 8 and 9 are allocated. Therefore eight channels out of the whole lot have been made available in that specific area. The topography of that area is such that it is almost impossible for the ordinary people in the area of Mooi River to communicate outside of the Mooi River district because of ranges of hills that cut off each of these areas into little pockets. The plan has proceeded thus far that in order to prevent communication between the area of Mooi River, which is to the north, and the area of Estcourt, which is to the south, a different set of channels has been allocated to the people of Estcourt. These channels have a lower range so that the higher range channels are in the north at Mooi River and the lower range channels in the south at Estcourt. What I am asking for is that the hon. the Minister should consider to make channels available in those regions which will not allow of the sort of chit-chat which I think the hon. the Minister and the department fears will make the telephone of no use, but which will make communication available in specific sections between the farmers on four channels in the one case and four channels in the other case. My own area, Karkloof, is completely cut off from the other areas. There is one post only at the farm Tetworth which can communicate with the Nottingham Road and Mooi River outside of the Karkloof district. I make this appeal to the hon. the Minister to try to meet us so that channels can be allocated within a district. It is not inhibiting the use of channels anywhere else because of the short range, which is estimated at between 20 and 30 km in view of the topography of the area. Because of this limited range, the hon. the Minister should make channels available which will allow, not only that area, but the whole of Natal and East Griqualand, which has recently been incorporated with Natal, to be linked into a set up like this. I do not have to stress the point that this is not only for security purposes. Security is obviously in the mind of every single person when the overall situation is borne in mind. There is a very big timber area and consequently the danger of fires. In my constituency, in the district of Karkloof, three fires have already been prevented or have been put out soon because people have recourse to the radio which enables them to get in touch with their neighbours. A matter of a fence broken and cattle getting out onto the national road can land a farmer in the most immense difficulties. A farmer can be liable for all kinds of legal damages if people run into his cows on a national road. It has happened already that somebody was able to call one of the farmers to tell him one of his fences was broken and that his cattle were getting onto the road.

I have already dealt with the question of phones. We have already had one case in the area where a car in most mysterious circumstances was seen going about the district handing out pamphlets and spreading the most alarming kind of talk amongst the local Black population. Within a matter of hours the farmers in that area were able to communicate with the police and the car was apprehended and action was taken. An application was made for the local police stations to be included in this network. Mooi River is an area which is particularly susceptible to stock theft. If one is able to include the local police stations in the network I think a greater deal of control could be kept over the areas. To the farming community this is a matter of very, very great concern.

The whole of Natal has been divided into three areas. Once again I mention this that the farming community itself, under the auspices of the NAU, took this action. They devised the whole plan and set the whole thing up. It is one of the most unfortunate things that ever happened that they did it without being in the right sort of touch with the hon. the Minister’s department. This is one of those things which happen sometimes. However, they say: “’n Boer maak ’n plan.” In this case it is what the “boere” have done. They have made a plan which works outstandingly and which has the complete support of the Natal Military Command. What we are requiring from the hon. the Minister is any assistance he can give us to make sure that as many channels as possible are made available. We are perfectly happy that in a particular area all other channels, other than the four or whatever is used in that area, should be inhibited. The plan would be that 19 channels would be covered, but individual farms would have the use of four channels only, plus a central calling channel.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Mooi River must excuse me if I do not follow up his argument. He spoke about domestic matters with which I am not acquainted. I just want to say to him in passing, however, that he made a positive, constructive and interesting speech and I believe the hon. the Minister will give him an adequate reply.

The hon. member for Hillbrow will probably be surprised to hear that I agree with parts of his speech. Especially as regards telephone booths and public facilities which he advocated and hints which he made, I want to tell him that I agree with him wholeheartedly and that he has a very good case. I should like to elaborate on this later in my speech and give my opinion on it.

Anyone who has made a thorough study of the budget will know that the hon. the Minister laid down three objectives when he became Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. If one looks at the budget, one will have to agree that, in the light of the objectives which the hon. the Minister laid down—viz. the provision of essential services in the most economical way, the promotion of efficiency, the development of a sound economy, the prevention of inflation by keeping the tariff structure as low as possible and the creation of favourable working conditions, conditions of service and training possibilities to encourage the staff to be as highly productive as possible—the Post Office and the hon. the Minister have definitely succeeded. A need has arisen in recent times for a more developed and streamlined service. Advanced technical skill has become a must in the Post Office. When one scrutinizes this budget in order to determine whether it does in fact comply with the requirements which have been laid down, one finds that it testifies to purposeful personnel management, economy, rationalization, efficiency and an extensive programme for expansion and modernization, against the background of considerable increases in the tariffs and prices of material, electricity and transport. The Post Office does not, of course, have any control over this and its expenditure can only be limited by ensuring that these means are employed as effectively as possible. This is precisely the policy of the Post Office. Every attempt is made to prevent wastage and to limit capital expenditure to essential items. The hon. member for Hillbrow referred to self-financing, and I feel that the Post Office must be complimented in this respect. Of the total capital required, more than 40% is provided from internal sources. This is an excellent attempt which has been made by the top officials.

If one looks at the annual report and the budget, one sees that the Post Office—the hon. the Minister, the Postmaster General and all the officials—are aware of the fact that there are still some services which have considerable room for improvement. The budget definitely identifies problems with which the Post Office is still struggling.

I just want to dwell for a moment on the question of public telephones. I want to assure hon. members that the Post Office is concerned about the inconvenience which people sometimes have to put up with when public telephones are out of order. In most cases this is due to vandalism, which was responsible for damage to the value of approximately R288 774 in the past year. I feel that the Post Office cannot afford this. It is not the fault of the Post Office that these telephones are out of order, it is the fault of those people who use a public telephone booth for every possible purpose other than to make a call. In my humble opinion the time has come for the Post Office to think seriously about doing away with public telephone booths. It is extremely frustrating if one wants to use a public telephone and it does not work. I am speaking from personal experience. I should therefore like to make a serious plea to the hon. the Minister to do away with public telephone booths. I realize that people who do not have a private telephone need a service like this. I feel that more public table model telephones, to which the hon. member for Hillbrow referred, should be installed in cafés, shops, hotels, chemists and filling stations. At the end of January 1978 there were only 3 221 of these public table model telephones in South Africa. This is a disappointing figure. It could be considerably higher. I shall explain why. Over and above the fact that this facility is regularly announced by means of Press statements and notices in the Post Office bulletin, more publicity must be given to the matter. A shopkeeper or the owner of a business must realize that he can benefit from this type of telephone. He must definitely be encouraged to provide this telephone service to the public in his shop, or wherever. There is no rental for this service. The calls which are made are registered by public exchanges and an account for the full amount, less 10% discount, is delivered to the owner every month. In other words, the owner earns commission on the calls which are made from the telephone. Especially now that we are investigating an agency service, arising from with what is stated in the budget, I feel that this agency service will definitely work. If one travels in Europe and several other countries, one sees that it definitely works there. I see no reason why it will not work in South Africa. While the hon. the Minister is conducting these investigations, I ask that we should also ascertain whether more telephones cannot be provided in shops, etc., and that the public telephone booths, which I consider undesirable, could then be done away with.

Then we must look at our international service. I feel that we have an excellent international telephone service in South Africa. South African telephone subscribers can make calls to 185 other countries, including 39 countries on the African continent. Subscribers can dial 17 overseas countries direct. I want to dwell for a moment on overseas calls, especially as they affect the tourist. To talk about hotel levies, etc., when one dials from a hotel room, would be a debate all on its own. Sometimes the levy which the hotel charges is even more than the cost of the overseas call itself. This does not only happen in South Africa. This problem occurs throughout Europe. I feel that we must make it part of a tourist attraction in South Africa that, when a tourist is in South Africa, he should know that he can go to a public post office and make a call from there to Europe, or wherever he comes from. I feel that we have an excellent service here. Overseas calls can be made from all post offices. All postmasters have standing instructions in this connection. Special facilities have been made available at large urban post offices for this purpose. However, I feel that it can be made more effective. It must be brought directly to the attention of the tourist or the overseas businessman that he can in fact make use of these services at a post office.

There may not be anywhere else. If one walks down Parliament Street, one reaches the main post office. The service is excellent, technically speaking, but one must go to the sixth floor in order to dial. There is a beautiful lady there who is prepared to help one, but how many tourists and people walking around here know that there is in fact such a service? I am seriously asking the hon. the Minister to give attention to this so that this service may also be brought specifically to the attention of tourists and businessmen from abroad. I believe that it will be a service not only for the post office, but for South Africa too.

Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is necessary for me to make any comment on the speech which the hon. member for Overvaal has just made. I just want to remark in passing, however, that there are two aspects of his speech where I have sympathy with him and which I want to endorse, viz. the question of the sixth floor and of the pretty girl. I have sympathy with any young man when he wants to make an urgent call and the telephone in the public telephone booth is out of order. A man like this feels discouraged.

On the face of it, things are going well for the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. The hon. the Minister has not considered it necessary to make any tariff increases for the past three consecutive years. Apparently no crisis can be detected in the near future. Indeed, in the present world climate it is an exceptional achievement on which he and his department must be heartily congratulated without reservation.

If one reads the annual report, it is no wonder that this success was achieved by the department. In my opinion, purposefulness, methodical planning and research are the three outstanding characteristics of the management, actively illustrated by the hon. the Minister’s announcement during his Second Reading speech that the top management voluntarily declined a share in the achievement bonuses. I feel that this positive action is an example of the initiative which can be taken. This is the type of action which I believe we need if we want to convert our problems in this country into opportunities. I extend my hearty congratulations to the gentlemen concerned in this regard. In connection with this, I should like to dwell for a moment on the announcement by the hon. the Minister in connection with the amount of R7,5 million set aside for the payment of achievement bonuses to the Post Office staff. It is pleasing to note that, as a result of work study investigations, it was possible to do away with 256 posts during the past year, in spite of the expansion of services. It is also pleasing to note that, due to the streamlining of work procedures and due to computerizing and automation of services, it was possible to do away with a further 272 posts. This means that the quality per worker has increased by 91% during the past seven years—when calculated at fixed tariffs. Nevertheless it is true—and we all know this—that the growth rate of productivity in South Africa has been one of the lowest in the Western World for the past decade. This gives rise to concern and reflection. It makes one reflect because the question automatically arises whether we have not already progressed further along the road towards the extinction of capitalism than we are perhaps inclined to admit. I am deliberately asking this question under this vote because the Post Office is labour-intensive and that is why it can make a greater contribution in this sphere than most other bodies whether positively or negatively. This is perhaps why one has the feeling that the economic recession which we are experiencing at the moment, is also serving its purpose, in the sense that we as inhabitants of South Africa are re-evaluating the word “work”. It may very well be so that all of us, especially our young people, will have to make a new evaluation of rendering a service, and we are in fact doing so. It is also definitely true that a new awareness is taking root among our people, a new appreciation of reality in that people are realizing more and more that one can only take from life what one is prepared to put into it.

That then is why I am pleased about the introduction of the achievement bonus. While it has apparently not yet been fixed, I should like to request that those who want to work, should gain advantage from it, and that those who are prepared to achieve, must receive their reward. Whereas we are grateful to take note of the overtime of two hours per week which the Post Office staff has already contributed without additional remuneration, I want to express the hope that the achievement bonus will make a contribution towards the re-awakening of a sense of duty amongst our people. It is for that very reason that I am asking that this will not be a general gift, but that we must in fact draw a definite dividing line between those who want to work and those who do not. In this regard, I feel it will be a good thing if I put on the record that I am making a plea here for achievement remuneration for all population groups.

As far as I am concerned, I believe that merit and merit alone should be the norm according to which people must be remunerated. I believe that, if one takes reality in practice into account, the wage gap between both the various population groups and the two sexes must disappear as quickly as practicable and that productivity must be the decisive factor. I believe that it will be an incentive for me and my fellow White man to stimulate our initiative. It will be something for the Coloured to strive towards. It is ideal for both of us because it will enable us to move away from the distribution of alms, charity and the unnecessary subsidization of so many things. Then, for instance each one will pay the same interest rate on this house. Then everyone will pay the same bus fare. But then, Sir, everyone will also have the same responsibility. Then everyone will be free to determine his own standard of living according to his own capability, with the full acceptance of the same obligations. I think that we have been arguing about “one man, one vote” for too long, instead of “one man, one job” (with acknowledgement to Dr. Rupert). Let he who makes the contribution, earn his benefit.

We take note with thanks and appreciation of the research which is being done in connection with work evaluation. Fully qualified psychologists have been employed by the department on a full-time basis. However, I believe that we can take a leaf from the book of the Japanese. They have already advanced so far that they have carried positive involvement between employer and employee to its logical conclusion. It is fit and proper for us to develop pride in every employee but it is also a good thing for the employer to be involved from the first to the last day and that there should be a mutual interaction of co-existence and mutual interdependence between the two parties.

I now come to the question of personnel research. I should like to put a question to the hon. the Minister in this regard. I should like to know whether any exchange of data and information takes place between his personnel research department and those of other departments. We took note of the co-operation between the department and the National Institute for Personnel Research, but it would be a pity if it did not also exist between this department and other departments. One believes that there must in fact be interaction, and it will be a pity if the advantages of this cannot be conveyed from one department to the other.

Finally, I want to say that it is a pity to note that there is still a shortage of young men in certain areas. One is sorry to take note of the fact that there are only 38 trained technicians and telephone electricians who joined the department from abroad on a contract basis during the past year. It is therefore pleasing to take note of the fact that the first seven Indians, 11 Coloureds and six Blacks, to whom the hon. member for Durbanville has already referred, qualified as technicians. One is pleased about the success which Mr. Alfons Kumalo has achieved as the first Black lecturer in telecommunications. With a view to the boycotts which may be imposed upon us, we shall have to depend on our own people, and develop our own talents.

Mr. Chairman, I did not take part in the Second Reading debate, and therefore I want to add my own words of congratulation to the hon. the Minister, who is in charge of this debate for the last time. I want to congratulate him on this budget and wish him well in his retirement.

Tell us about the Patriotic Front.

I shall come to that later on. I want to raise two issues, both of which are important. One of these issues certainly has been raised before. In fact, I raised it last year, and I am sure it has been raised many times in this House. I hope the hon. the Minister will listen with some patience, because he has heard this before. The problem, however, still remains and representations have been made on a number of occasions since last year to myself and, I am sure, to others. I therefore want to raise this matter again. I realize that the solution to the problem which I am going to raise is a very difficult one and will require some reorganization, but I know that the hon. the Minister wants to go out on a very fine note, so I hope he will listen with some sympathy. I want to refer to the plight of Post Office pensioners, particularly those who retired before 1 July 1973. Last year when I raised this matter the hon. the Minister said that if I would send the name of the particular person to him, he would look into that matter. I consulted with the person concerned, and he preferred to handle the matter himself. That name was accordingly not sent forward to the hon. the Minister. I have now received a number of letters and visits from groups of pensioners, who have asked me to raise the matter in the House again. I do so with pleasure. I want to refer to Act No. 57 of 1973, which provides very far-reaching changes in the pension benefits for officials who retire on pension from the service on or after 1 July 1973. The point is well made, by these pensioners, that the new benefits which have come to the Post Office, both in terms of those still in their active working life and, indeed, those who have retired since then, have been enormous. They are, of course, very appreciative of those benefits that have come their way, but over the years a number of pensioners who retired before July 1973 have tried to make out a particular case. In one instance they used an example which I want to try to use here again today to illustrate why they feel so deeply about their own situation. I think all of us in this House will be sympathetic because we realize that people on fixed incomes, particularly today, are experiencing considerable hardship. The illustration used was the following. An individual joins the Post Office on 1 July 1932 and retires, after 40 years’ service, on 1 July 1972, with his pension based on an average salary of R6 000 per annum. A second individual joins the service one year later, on 1 July 1933, and retires, also after 40 years’ service, on 1 July 1973, with his pension also based on an average salary of R6 000 per annum. If calculations are made on the basis of the regulations, it will be found that the first pensioner would receive a gratuity of approximately R10 800 and an annual pension of R3 861, or just in excess of R320 per month. The second individual, however, who joined the service one year later, would receive a retirement gratuity of over R16 000 and an annual pension of R4 723, or almost R400 per month. Those who have talked to me about this over the last two or three years have made it clear—and I want to underline this—that they are, of course, delighted about the fact that there are those who are receiving the higher pensions. They say, however, that the gap is so great, between those who retired before July 1973 and those who retired after July 1973, that their feeling is, and I quote their very words: “That an injustice has been done.” In fact, they talk about receiving a pittance, and this against the background of a Post Office which has treated its people extremely well. In the light of the financial struggle that pensioners face, the injustice to which I have referred, and which is described in their own words, must, I think, be taken very seriously. In the Post Office’s journal, the hon. the Minister has tried to put his point of view, and he does make out a good case, but he uses an illustration of an official of fairly high rank.

The kinds of people I am talking about, however, in fact the people who have been to see me about this, are those who have perhaps not reached those higher levels before retirement, in other words those pensioners who are more or less at the R300 per month mark. A correspondent recently offered another illustration, as follows. A grade 3 postmaster with 44 years’ service, who retired in 1964 on a pension of R129 per month plus cost of living plus a small bonus of R150 per annum, after more than 13 years has a pension of only R271 net, about R100 less than that of a clerk who retires today. When one bears in mind that the Railways, an autonomous body, seemingly had no difficulty in securing a 20% increase for their pensioners who retired before 1 December 1973, it seems to me that something could be done for this large group of pensioners who are finding it extremely difficult to make ends meet, who find that they cannot even take a holiday and who tremble lest their refrigerator or stove should pack in. With rents increasing all the time and in view of the very considerable benefits coming to the contemporary employees of the Post Office, these pensioners feel that they have had an injustice done to them and I would appeal to the hon. the Minister to give his mind to this problem again. I am not unaware of the actuarial problems involved. I am well aware that this always happens, but of course, if one talks to a pensioner in these terms, he really cannot understand or accept it.

The second matter I wish to raise, I really wish to put in the form of a question. It is a matter of very considerable importance to all of us in the country. It relates to the recent case concerning Mr. Donald Woods. At the time it was made clear that he believed and said that he had proof—someone employed by him backed that up—that his mail had been opened and tampered with.

Do you admire Donald Woods?

Yes, I do, considerably. I disagree with him, but I admire him. A very high ranking Post Office official said at the time that it was true that on certain occasions mail was handed to the Security Police.

Do you not know the Act?

Yes, I know the Act, but I want to know from the hon. the Minister, firstly, whether this is true and, secondly, how far-reaching this practice is, because one begins to wonder just how many letters and how many people are directly affected by this handing of letters to the Security Police. This is a very serious matter. Mail is supposed to be private. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I have listened quietly to the hon. member for Pinelands and I have thought: Today is the day on which I would not like to murder him after his speech. He started on quite a positive note and proceeded reasonably, but in the end he had to conclude by expressing concern about matters which do not really concern him.

It is a very important matter.

I think the security of our nation and of our country is of far greater importance than that situation.

How would you like it if your mail is opened?

I think that we as members of this House should on this occasion express our appreciation towards the man and the woman in the service of the Post Office who stand and work on their feet. In the first line of his Second Reading speech, the hon. the Minister used the words “management philosophy”. In the report by the Postmaster-General one also sees words which deserve our particular attention: “Loyalty, dedication and enthusiasm.” The Postmaster-General concludes his foreword by expressing his thanks towards the staff “for their spirited support”. The staff of the Post Office have succeeded in building into their work and activities a soul and a character of their own. I think we should express our appreciation for what they are doing for our nation and for our country. Even the man who delivers the post, the man who places the post in the postbox, does his work with dedication and has a striving and an idealism built into his work.

It is thanks to those people’s proud activities that we were able to hear this positive budget. On behalf of these people who constantly work with dedication and loyalty, we want to ask the public to be a little more patient with these people, and especially with the staff who stand behind the counters in the country areas and who have to render a great variety of services over those counters. Perhaps we should ask the public not to postpone their visits to the post office until Fridays and Saturdays. The Post Office is one section of our Civil Service which still works on Saturdays, and we therefore request the public to spread their visits over the week so that we can make things easier for these people. We ought to be patient with the young girl or the young man who starts working there if they cannot immediately lay their hands on something, because very often they are people who still have to be trained. We can support those people by being obliging, by being friendly and by our willingness to co-operate with them.

I want to come back to the staff of a specific section of the Post Office, namely the technical section. There is an increase in the staff of the Post Office’s technical section. According to the annual report of the Post Office, there is however still a need for more staff in this specific field. It is a very important field, and if we consider the training facilities which are available to the different population groups, I think that is the reason why the Official Opposition cannot get their teeth into this budget of the hon. the Minister. At Olifantsfontein, there is a training centre for Whites, and this centre is a jewel. However, we have not heard a word of appreciation for this centre from those hon. members. For Coloureds, the Post Office has a training centre in Cape Town. For Indians, there are training units in Johannesburg and in Durban. What is important to me is whether there are accommodation facilities for those students. In Johannesburg, flats for Indian students have been made available in Azaardville, where those students are placed and accommodated so that they can carry on with their training. For Blacks, there are training facilities and accommodation in the Mmadikoti college at Pietersburg.

We can also examine the method of recruiting. A recruiting campaign is launched by the Post Office every year among all the population groups for students to be trained to handle this facet of the task. At the end of January this year, the following numbers of students were engaged in their training: White trainee technicians, 1 715; Coloureds, 85; Asians, 65; Blacks, 31. As far as trainee electricians are concerned, the numbers are as follows: Whites, 2 070; Coloureds, 277; Asians, 115; and Blacks 98. Mr. Chairman, I should like also to give details of the cost of training these students. When a student is taking the three-year certificate course for technicians, it costs the State R13 000 for the training of each student. When a student is taking a four-year diploma course in this technical field, it costs the State R18 500 per student. As regards students for the post of electrician, the training for the two-year certificate costs R6 500, while training for the three-year certificate costs R11 000. This training is available to students. Recruiting is done every year and we invite all students, Black, Brown and White, with a bent for mathematics, to come and join these students. We have all the facilities available and the funds are also available. The figures which I have mentioned here represent the number of students we have recruited. There is a shortage of technicians and electricians in these fields. While people outside talk about unemployment, here is the opportunity for people to obtain employment. What is very important, however, is that as soon as a student has completed his course and enters the service of the Post Office, he is automatically bound to render service to the Post Office for the same number of years as his period of training. After that, he may leave the service and take up another occupation and even join other companies. He can even start his own business and become an entrepreneur. To me, this is the field in which there are the finest prospects. Here we are enabled, by our expertise and through the development of our postal services, to offer people of other colours, the Asians and Coloureds, but in particular also the Blacks, the opportunity to be trained.

We offer them all the facilities and the opportunities, and after completion of their service contracts they are free to start their own business undertakings as entrepreneurs. Such a person has then the know-how to fall back on his own initiative in his own area. The Black fatherlands have a great need and a terrible dearth of such knowledgeable people. This is an opportunity which the PFP, as the Official Opposition, ought to avail themselves of, and instead of making enquiries about Donald Woods, they should perform a task by inspiring the people with whom they communicate so often. They ought to motivate the people to enrol for the training.

I want to conclude by expressing my appreciation towards all our Post Office staff for the fine work which they perform, for the inspiration which they have put into their work, for the enthusiasm with which they undertake their tasks and for the fact that in this way they strive after the best. We also foresee that it will go well with our new Minister who will take over this particular portfolio.

Mr. Chairman, before I raise a matter of a local nature, I wish to deal with a point made by the hon. member for Standerton. He dealt with the issue of the training of “anderkleuriges” and their subsequent employment in the Post Office. He mentioned the fact there were training facilities for Indian technicians in Johannesburg and in Durban. This is correct, but I have had enquiries from Indians living in Cape Town that they are concerned about the fact that they are not able to use training facilities in the Cape Peninsula area. They are nevertheless prepared to go off to Johannesburg or to Durban for their training, but then learn that even after their training there will not be suitable employment for them as Indians in the Cape Peninsula area. If this is correct, I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would consider this problem, as there is a significant Indian community living in the Cape Peninsula and, quite clearly, their children who are trained and qualified would prefer to be employed in this vicinity and not in either the Transvaal or Natal areas. If this is in fact the situation at the moment, I would like to know whether the hon. the Minister would not consider changing that policy so that, where the Coloureds and Indians live in close association with one another in the Cape Peninsula, the Indians can also be employed as technicians in this part of the country.

What I want to raise with the hon. the Minister, is a local matter relating to the Sea Point constituency, and I raise it with him not only as Minister of Post and Telecommunications, but also as a Minister who is fortunate enough, for five months of the year, to be a resident of the Sea Point constituency. I shall miss him walking, as he does, along the cornice along the seafront towards Camps Bay. I hope he finds another place where he can take up his walking-stick and go for a walk after he has retired. One thing I can assure him of, however: He will not find a place anywhere in the country which can equal the beauty of that particular walk along the Clifton-Camps Bay beachfront. I want to raise with the hon. the Minister the problem of the allocation of a radio waveband for use by police reservists in the Sea Point area. The hon. the Minister knows that this is a problem. The matter has been brought to his attention and still, after many months, the issue has not been satisfactorily resolved. Because Sea Point is an intensely built-up area, with tall buildings and dense traffic, the situation interferes with the normal reception on the intercom communication sets used by the police reservists. The hon. the Minister is also aware of the fact that in Sea Point we have a community with more than its share of anti-social behaviour, problems of crime, group friction and group tension. [Interjections.] The police play a very important role in these circumstances. The ordinary police admit that at times they are unable to cope with the situation, but fortunately there are public-spirited residents of the area who have joined the police reserve. Some 40 to 45 of them make themselves available, don uniforms and do duty, without pay, two, three, four times a week and they very often give up holiday time, late evenings, Friday and Saturday nights acting as police reservists in the area. I have been contacted by these police reservists—I regularly communicate with them—and have been told that they have raised some R2 000 through public subscriptions in Sea Point to purchase radio intercom sets in order to improve the patrolling of the area and to assure that they have an effective link with the reservists out on patrol and the headquarters in the Sea Point area. Nevertheless they find that they are not able to get from the Post Office the allocation of a satisfactory waveband over which they can communicate. I wish to read the letter which they wrote in this regard. They say—

They point out that their co-reservists operating in the Claremont-Wynberg area on a frequency of 68,750 MHz have proved that this is a great success. It is for this reason that I believe their application should have been more favourably considered. Here is a situation where the Post Office allocated a waveband in good faith. Nevertheless, the police reservists, having required equipment at public subscription, cannot use it effectively in that particular area on that frequency. They make a very earnest request. This situation has been going on for some seven or eight months. The letter was written in February this year.

Why did you not make representations sooner?

There have been communications for a long time. [Interjections.] The point is that the police reservists want to do a job, they have raised the money themselves, and they have purchased the equipment, but for some reason or other, which has not been made clear to them, they cannot be allocated a waveband which is suitable for the equipment. In the circumstances it is creating tremendous frustration amongst the police reservists and the people who want to do the job. I have no doubt that the failure to allocate a suitable waveband is having a negative effect on the combating of crime in this area. For these reasons I would hope that the hon. the Minister would not only ask his department to review the situation, but would also give a satisfactory explanation so that some of the frustration which arises from this problem can be eliminated, in the interests of the reservists and the combating of crime in that area.

Mr. Chairman, when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition rose I thought he was going to tell us a few things about his communication in Gaborones, but then he did not do so! He made a special admission and I want to point that out to him. He said that the community in Sea Point was experiencing particular social problems. But I think they are experiencing other problems as well. They are experiencing MP problems. [Interjections.] The matter of the allocation of a radio frequency to the Police Reservists, which the hon. member discussed, is an important one. But this is no easy matter to solve. I am convinced, however, that the hon. the Minister and his department will assist him if it is at all possible to do so.

The hon. member for Pinelands also touched on a matter this afternoon. I have to admit quite frankly that I am slightly worried about the fact that I have to agree with him in that regard. But I do agree about this matter, namely the position of the pensioners of the Post Office. It is an important matter, and I am convinced that the hon. the Minister, whom we know as a sympathetic person, will, also in his capacity as Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, assist these people, who really do have problems if it is at all possible to do so.

I also want to join with previous speakers and express a word of thanks towards the hon. the Minister who is about to retire. He has rendered singular services to his department and to South Africa, as is again clearly indicated by the budget he presented this year. Nor can I neglect this afternoon to say a few words of congratulations to the new Minister the hon. member for Vereeniging, who is to take over the portfolio in the foreseeable future. He is a young man with outstanding abilities, and we believe that he will apply his abilities to the particular benefit of this department and of South Africa.

Under his guidance the Post Office will continue on this course and it will go well with Posts and Telecommunications. We wish him well for the days that lie ahead.

The importance of a postal and telecommunication network is not always fully appreciated or evaluated. It is usually only when there is an interruption and one has to communicate with someone else urgently, that one finds that one simply cannot manage without this communication network. Usually it comes as quite an eye-opener at the time. It is a fact that in modern, organized life one can no longer manage without telecommunications. A discussion of the activities of this Department is not complete if one does not refer to the following illuminating facts as well, facts which indicate to us the calibre of the officials whom we encounter in the Post Office. Moreover, Mr. Rive and his top management give outstanding guidance to these people. In this way they drastically reduced the telephone backlog this year by 22 000 to 57 000. In spite of that the maintenance of existing services continue to enjoy the highest priority.

In this regard I want to make mention of the special manner in which they set to work with regard to the extraordinary demands which were made on the technical sections of Post and Telecommunications during the recent floods in the Transvaal. During the weekend of 27 to 29 January 1978, approximately 8 000 telephones in the Johannesburg and Witwatersrand area and approximately another 8 000 telephones in the rest of the Transvaal, were put out of commission by the heavy rains. All major cable defects were repaired within the space of one week. All faults in Johannesburg and on the Witwatersrand were repaired within two weeks and in the rest of the Transvaal, also within a period of approximately two weeks. Hon. members will agree that this is an outstanding achievement indeed, one of which they, and we too, can be very proud. The public would like to say a sincere thank you to these people who had to work day and night to repair these services as soon as possible in the interests of all of us.

A further example of really exceptionally efficient service was encountered during the last general election. The Post Office had to meet our demands at very short notice. They succeeded remarkably well in doing this. During the election they made available a total of 3 351 additional telephones—these included exchange circuits, farm-line circuits and extensions—for election purposes to all political parties! The NP, the HNP, the NRP, the SAP and even to the Progs. Therefore the Post Office is not to blame for their having fared so badly! These people considered nothing as being too much trouble to assist us during the election. I want to mention in passing that although the Post Office assisted the Opposition parties so effectively, it did not deter the Opposition from moving such a ridiculous amendment as they moved here yesterday.

When one looks at the report by the Postmaster-General, it is both striking and disconcerting to notice what a considerable increase there has been in irrecoverable revenue. I understand that this is due mainly to unpaid telephone accounts. The number of cases increased from 15 891 to 20 510 and the amount which had to be written off as a result of this, was R844 783. This is R302 000, or 56%, more than in the previous year. It is gratifying to take cognizance of the fact that even this large amount represents only 19 cents for every R100 of Post Office revenue. Nevertheless, that loss of R844 000 in revenue is ultimately borne and paid by those people who do pay for their services. The Post Office has to take that loss into account and the money has to be found somewhere. In my opinion this is unfair and unreasonable, and I believe that we should try to do something about it. Inquiries reveal that as a rule the Post Office itself tries to collect these bad debts. I think that in these days of specialization we should consider allowing the Post Office to appoint a firm, an organization or people who specialize in this sort of work, to do this work for the Post Office on an agency basis. I do not think it is the task of Posts and Telecommunications to collect debts. In addition I want to suggest that consideration be given—and I understand this is already being considered on a limited scale—to asking people for a deposit at the time of the provision of a telephone service. It need not necessarily be a very large amount.

I am convinced, however, that if the Post Office were to consider asking a deposit in cases of a telephone service being provided, a major portion of the bad debts would not come down on other people. This is nothing out of the ordinary. All city councils in South Africa, in rendering services, require deposits from the inhabitants of the area concerned for the connection of water and electricity. I think, too, that the Post Office will be able to develop a very simple method for enabling it to administer the money it holds of the public, in a proper and easy way.

In conclusion, just as a thought on a matter which is also causing concern, namely the question of damage to public telephones. During the financial year 1976-’77 there were 1 985 instances of damage to telephone booths by vandals. During the past number of years we apprehended on the average from 80 to 100 of these culprits only. The punishment imposed varied from R25 or 25 days to R90 or 90 days. As we have heard, the Post Office intends trying to counter this type of damage by placing public telephones in cafés, hotels, etc. In addition they are even prepared to pay as much as R200 as a reward to persons who report these culprits to them or to the police. I think the time has arrived for us to pose the question whether the sentences imposed on these people are not too light. I do not think we should consider removing public telephones from the streets and from our public places. It is a service to the public and it should stay. But we cannot allow this damage and the resultant loss to continue unchecked.

Mr. Chairman, I want to avail myself of this opportunity to associate myself with what was said by previous hon. members in connection with the retirement of the hon. the Minister. We shall really miss seeing his face in this House. If ever there was a humble, unassuming, dedicated and good-natured person in this House and in the Other Place, then it is the present Minister of Posts and Telecommunications.

It is perhaps because I have had such a long association with him, first in the constituency of Westdene and later in the constituency of Johannesburg West, that I feel a real need to associate myself with what hon. members said about him.

As I have come to know him over the years and as I have followed his career, we have in him a person who is intensely interested in the education of our youth. It has already been said that he used to be a teacher. When one talks to people, to former pupils and other people who were in close contact with him, one hears about Johan van der Spuy and about the constructive influence which he had on the character formation of those pupils.

I have knowledge of what he achieved on the school board of Witwatersrand Central. I also know that he rendered invaluable services in the Witwatersrand Youth Council. I personally served on the school committee of Auckland Park’s primary school and I know what he meant to us there, especially to primary school pupils. I know what he did for the working youth at the Afrikaanse Hoër Handelskool. He really displayed an intense interest there, and worked with dedication.

I took a keen interest in his career, especially when he helped to have the Goudstadse Onderwyskollege in Johannesburg established. He felt that there was a need for a second college to cater for the needs of the Afrikaans-speaking students. This resulted in the establishment of the Randse Afrikaans University, on the council of which he was one of the first members and on which he made an admirable attempt to have justice done to the youth. We shall always know him and remember him as he sits there today—as a dedicated person.

I also know what he meant to us in the promotion of the NP. I am very much aware of how, in the constituencies to which I have just referred, he even went from door to door with booklets in his hand to do canvassing for the party. [Interjections.] He was truly an example to us. He is a person whom we shall not easily forget. What is really so wonderful to me, is the fact that he has reached this pinnacle and can now retire.

As Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, he has already left his mark, not only on the postal service generally, but also and especially in one other respect. He was the first hon. Minister in South Africa who brought television to the country. When he assumed office, we did not have a television service in South Africa. The hon. the Minister and his officials gave it to us. He has come unscathed through all the growing pains of the television service. In all other fields of the postal service he has also left many impressions. It redounds to his honour today that he has been able to leave his imprint on South Africa in this way.

In the same breath I refer to the Postmaster-General, Mr. Louis Rive, as well. It is a fact that it is the postal service which assisted to bring the pleasure of a television service to all of us in our different homes today. It is the postal service which gave us the television network which covers approximately 7 000 km. It is also the postal service with its 30 microwave stations, with 72 terminal stations and with a further 77 repeater stations which has rendered possible to South Africans the joy of our own television service.

When we listen to the news, when we see what is going on in the world, it is obvious that it is this very Minister who has had the lion’s share in the establishment of the television service, and that it is he who, by means of a satellite station has made it possible to broadcast 196 television programmes with a total duration of 3 762 minutes in a single year. These were television programmes beamed to as well as from countries abroad, and of which 59 were incoming programmes and 137 outgoing programmes.

It is the hon. the Minister and his officials of the postal service who ensured that within a period of 18 months, there were only 14 interruptions in the television network. This is a remarkable achievement and we can thank technological development for that. The interruptions referred to led to a loss of only one minute out of a total transmission time of 160 hours.

When we look at the television service and derive pleasure from it, as is in fact the case, we cannot but pay tribute to the hon. the Minister, to the Postmaster-General and to the officials of the Post Office, because they have made this possible for us.

When we also look at the services which the Post Office renders to us, for example the issuing of radio listeners’ licences, whereby an amount of R14 million is collected every year, we realize what a vast organization and administration is involved. The Post Office is already collecting more than R28 million annually in television licences. It is these extra services rendered to the State and to the community which compel us today to pay tribute to the Post Office and to the hon. the Minister.

It is chiefly on the officials of the Post Office that the hon. the Minister has left an indelible imprint. It is also thanks to him that they worked so many extra hours. They worked extra hours when nobody else in the Public Service was prepared to work 42 or 44 hours per week. The staff of the Post Office, however, were prepared to work extra hours because they were intent on countering inflation and making the Post Office come out tops in the end.

It may also be mentioned that the staff of the Post Office pay out R293 million in pensions annually. Do hon. members realize what a wonderful feeling, what a feeling of relief, this gives pensioners? They are people who have gone a long way on the road of life, people who are in the twilight of their lives, and it is the Post Office which treats them with so much tenderness and with so much compassion. That is why today affords us a golden opportunity to pay tribute to the Post Office. I may also mention that the Post Office has already sold defence bonds to the value of R12 million. Therefore it may rightly be said that the Post Office is developing apace.

The Post Office is no longer the Cinderella, but is highly regarded by the public and organized commerce. The Post Office has really become a proud institution in this country. Reference has already been made to what Mr. Louis Rive has accomplished. He was a member of the Franzsen Commission, which indeed achieved a great deal. Within three months of the start of its sitting, it produced a comprehensive report. That report formed the basis of the reformation which then took place in the Post Office. I think that was something wonderful. As a result of the activities of that commission and of the Wiehahn Commission, major changes were effected.

Whereas there used to be a backlog of 120 000 telephones, the position in respect of telephones is altogether different at the moment. Mention has also been made of the services which the Post Office rendered during the election. We thank them most sincerely. That proved once again that the Post Office—and I include the hon. the Minister and Mr. Louis Rive, as well as the 69 000 officials of the Post Office—is an excellent organization. We pay tribute and give recognition to them today for the singular service which they are rendering to the public of South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, we in these benches were highly delighted when the hon. the Minister told us of the very real and sincere interest which the management of his department has in the welfare, training and development of the people who work in the Post Office. In fact, I should like to quote from the hon. the Minister’s Second Reading speech to indicate the concern which he expressed in regard to the development and the productivity level of the people in the Post Office. This is what the hon. the Minister had to say—

In other words, recognition is given to the fact that the quality of the staff employed by the Post Office is to be of paramount concern. The hon. the Minister also said that the Post Office was extremely concerned to see that its managers kept abreast of modern personnel practice. He indicated to us in that same speech that no less than 663 middle, senior and junior managers had attended personnel management development courses during the year. We in these benches are delighted to see this. We would like to say to the hon. the Minister that we are very pleased to see that he has, unlike some departments, provided us with an insight into the growth and the losses which occur in his personnel. We find, for instance, that the total numbers of staff increased, during 1977-’78, by 3 044 as compared to an intake of 1 719 during the period 1976 to 1977. We also find in the very excellent report of the Post Office that they did unfortunately lose a considerable number of people as well. But, to the credit of the Post Office, I would like to say that according to my calculations the labour turnover of the Post Office is in the area of 7% per annum as far as technical staff are concerned. This is a remarkable achievement when one considers the value of those people to private industry, particularly the television manufacturing and servicing industry. I think that is an outstanding effort. What I am concerned about, however, in connection with the Post Office service is not the excellent emphasis which is placed upon the training and productivity aspects, but rather the problem of selecting staff. I am having a certain amount of difficulty in reconciling the statement by the hon. the Minister and the figures which we find in the estimates of revenue and expenditure of the Post Office for the coming year. The hon. the Minister did say in his speech—I think it was also mentioned by the hon. member for Vasco—that the Department of Posts and Telecommunications does now employ its own psychologists. I see on page 18 of the estimates that there is an appointment in the establishment under the title “Senior Psychiatrist”. I trust his services are not often used in the department! I notice further that he has a maximum salary of R10 200 per annum. I want to compare his salary scale with that of other positions, but I am only using the comparison to indicate the differences in salaries and training requirements. On page 17 reference is made to a design artist who has a maximum salary of R11 400 per annum. I think the hon. the Minister is probably aware of the fact that a psychiatrist is a man who first undergoes full medical training, in other words first becomes a doctor, before specializing in psychiatry. A senior psychiatrist is therefore a man with at least 13 years’ academic training. I therefore doubt very much whether it is possible to fill that position of senior psychiatrist at a salary of R10 200 per annum. Obviously the psychiatrist’s services are used in connection with counselling and personal problems.

This is probably Bob Newhart.

More than likely. What I am trying to get across is the emphasis, or perhaps lack of emphasis, placed on the selection procedures used by the department of Posts and Telecommunications which has a present-day intake of 3 000-odd people per year. On page 15 of the estimates—and with reference to the figure I read out a few moments ago—one sees that it is highly unlikely that the Department of Posts and Telecommunications employs more than five professionally qualified industrial psychologists.

In the category “Professional (excluding engineers)” we find only five people classified in the salary group R6 120 per annum to R10 199 per annum. I wonder how it is possible—and perhaps the hon. the Minister will elaborate on this when he comes to reply—for those five people—and there may even be fewer than five because that is the maximum number—to perform an adequate selection function at the salaries we have seen reflected in these Estimates, especially when one takes into consideration the sophisticated nature of the technical training involved and hence the special nature of the people required for the successful employment of the human skills necessary in the department. One is led to wonder even more when one considers the thousands upon thousands of people employed in this highly technical, sophisticated area. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether, in fact, they do have adequate selection procedures because if we do not, it is going to be impossible to discover which people have the adequate skills and aptitudes for the positions for which they are going to be trained. What is even more important is that if there is a high failure rate amongst people who have not been adequately selected, according to the figures given to us by the hon. member for Standerton we are going to lose something like R18 500 in direct training costs for certain categories of students, R11 000 for others and R6 500 per student failure in other categories. I should therefore like to receive the assurance from the hon. the Minister that my interpretation of the figures in the Estimates is, in fact, incorrect, and will he please tell us how they go about implementing successful selection?

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Durban North made a good speech. He was very concerned about industrial psychologists, and in a lighter vein I just want to ask him whether his hon. party should not see a psychologist to establish on what grounds they voted for the amendment of the official Opposition. I should like to associate myself, as other hon. members have done, with the words of thanks and good wishes to the hon. the Minister who is retiring, and also to associate myself, as other hon. members have done, with the good wishes conveyed to the hon. member for Vereeniging on his promotion.

I should also like to express a few words of appreciation to the hon. the Minister and the Post Office staff for the automatic exchange which we received in Klerksdorp last year, an exchange known as the Wilkoppies Exchange. The exchange which was put into operation there was a great alleviation to us.

They probably think they have a good MP!

Mr. Chairman, I am grateful when other hon. members praise me—I really did not want to say it myself. I have great appreciation for the Post Office, which is a very effective organization. In particular I want to discuss the Post Office people in my constituency for a while. During the recent election they handled a vast amount of post in a very efficient way, as indeed they always do. On a Thursday morning, for example, I handed in more than 11 000 postal articles, and on Friday they had already been delivered in the area. That is service, and it is particularly efficient! The people there do not complain, even though they do not use the automatic sorting machines. I think the hon. member for Carletonville will bear out what I have said, because many of his postal articles were also despatched from our post office and probably delivered very quickly as well. Therefore I should like to thank the Postmaster of our town and his staff for their co-operation, both as far as the postal as well as the telephone services are concerned.

The hon. member for Sunnyside said yesterday that the Post Office brought people happiness and satisfaction. The hon. member for Umhlanga, whom I do not notice here now, said, inter alia, in his reply that he thought the hon. member was exaggerating. I, in turn, think that the hon. member for Umhlanga was exaggerating when he said that. The happiness and satisfaction which the Post Office brings to people, is really a subject in itself, on which one could make a speech.

I want to point out only aspect which supports the statement made yesterday by the hon. member for Sunnyside. I myself have witnessed the happiness, expectation and appreciation on the part of the elderly people in our home for the aged when the time arrives for the mobile post office to stop there on its rounds. For them it is a special tie with family and friends abroad. In this respect the mobile post office services are rendering a valuable service, and I trust, although they are sometimes carried out by the post office under difficult circumstances, that this service will be continued.

Since I am talking about older people now, there is another matter I should like to raise. The Post Office has specific times for paying out various kinds of pensions. It has come to my attention that on specific occasions, vagrants have tried to rob old people when they came to collect their old-age pensions at the post office in our town on that specific pay-day. This happened in the vicinity of the post office. I am merely bringing this to the attention of the hon. the Minister—I do not have any specific solution. Perhaps the paydays for pensions could be alternated or staggered.

I should also like to point out another exceptional achievement of the Post Office. This achievement is in connection with the vehicles of the Post Office. The number of vehicles increased during the year by 577 to a total of 8 903. A total distance of 114,6 million km was covered and 21,3 million litres of fuel consumed. The average running and maintenance costs went up from R6,30 to R6,50 per 100 km, but the fuel consumption dropped from 19,5 litres to 18,68 litres per 100 km, which brought about an effective saving of approximately 422 000 litres during the year. It is, so I believe, an exceptional achievement that this saving was brought about, and that they helped in this way to cut down on the amount of money which leaves this country.

The other exceptional service to which I should like to refer briefly is the philatelic services. This section of the Post Office has grown tremendously. Our total postage stamp sales already amount to more than R2 million. A further illustration of this fact is that the total number of orders for collectors’ items increased from 198 000 during 1976 to R275 600 in 1977. We can deduce from this that the stamps of the Republic and of South West Africa are exceptionally popular, at home as well as abroad.

I believe that this may be attributed in particular to a conservative stamp issuing policy in terms of which only sufficient material is made available to keep the interest of collectors alive. Naturally the themes depicted, as well as the quality, play an important role. What is particularly commendable is that these postage stamps— one could almost call them little ambassadors—are of inestimable value in enhancing South Africa’s reputation abroad in the sphere of philately. Not only does the Post Office endeavour to promote South Africa’s image abroad, but has in fact accomplished a great deal in making the establishment of the independent republics of Transkei and Bophuthatswana widely known throughout the world. I read, inter alia, the following, by way of announcement an advertisement, in the publication Philatelic Magazine which is published in England and distributed all over the world—

In this way, as well as with the establishment of Intersapa, the Inter-South African Philatelic Agency, the Post Office has already helped the two States just mentioned, and they are still being assisted with their marketing of their postage stamps and their stationery with a view to earning revenue and exchange and to make them acceptable in the political sphere. The Post Office is doing this by providing agencies in other countries, and by providing stamp collectors and private collectors throughout the world with information. Then, too, there are the periodicals and newspapers of whose services use is being made and in which articles on these issues appear. Postage stamp sales are in addition being stimulated by means of international exhibitions. There has already been participation in international exhibitions in Holland and Portugal, where stalls were manned and publicity given to the stamps of the Republic, South West Africa and the Transkei. For the sake of interest I also want to mention that since March 1976 the Post Office has also been helping the South African Airways in this connection by marketing approximately 250 000 first-day envelopes, by means of which the introduction of new services and the commissioning of new equipment were publicized. In this respect as well, the Post Office is rendering a remarkable service and the Post Office is an absolutely dedicated service organization, serving the interests of our country at home as well as abroad, and for that they deserve our appreciation.

Mr. Chairman, I have no fault to find with the representations addressed by the hon. member for Klerksdorp to the hon. the Minister. Therefore I should like to proceed immediately with two requests or recommendations of my own.

The first relates to telephone directories, particularly with regard to the international telephone service. We are all very grateful for the introduction of an extremely efficient international telephone service. I think the service is not only technically of outstanding quality, but also most conducive to good human and business relations with overseas countries. Difficulties are being experienced with the utilization of these services, however, as the differences between time zones in different parts of the world are not always known to the person making the call. When a sudden need arises to make a telephone call to an overseas country, it is sometimes difficult to determine the exact time in the country to which the call is to be made. I should like to suggest—I have raised this on a previous occasion—that a small diagram, indicating the differences between the time zones of the various countries be printed in telephone directories, next to the list of code numbers for foreign countries, so that it is possible for anyone wishing to make a phone call to a foreign country, to determine at once what the time difference is between the place from where he is making his call and the country to which he is making the call. The problem in this regard is that one cannot determine this at once at present and for the convenience of both the caller and the receiver of the call, it will in my opinion be a good thing if such a simple diagram or time indicator can be published in the directory.

†I now wish to raise the matter of surface mails with the hon. the Minister. For many years—the hon. the Minister mentioned it in his Second Reading speech—there has been a mail contract covering the transport of mail between the UK and European countries, on the one hand, and South Africa on the other hand. This has, for many years, been a reliable and important service and has, in fact, in many respects been the foundation of active commerce between this country and the UK.

Since the termination of the passenger mail service, there has been a breakdown in the regularity, the reliability, the efficiency and the dependability of the mail between these countries. I have a number of newspaper cuttings here—I have not the time to read them—which indicate the growing concern and impatience of the public at the fact that the mail service between this country, the UK and Europe has become so unpredictable and unreliable.

In some of these letters mention is made of delays of seven, eight or even nine weeks in the transmission of a letter or a postcard. I have seen a reply from the Director of the Post Office of the Western Cape in which he deals with these complaints. He points out that the delays can be attributed to the termination of the ocean mail service contract and the fact that all the container vessels have not yet been brought into service. He goes on to say—

I have also raised the matter in the House by way of a question, and the hon. the Minister’s reply then was in much the same vein. He pointed out that the mail service had been terminated and that no new arrangements had been made to provide a regular mail service between South Africa, the UK and Europe. We realize that mail services to other countries, such as Australia, etc., fall in a different category. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that the time may now have come for him to take a stronger initiative in this regard. Merely to wait for the container services to build up and to hope that, fortuitously through the expansion of the container service, it will become possible to carry mail on a more regular basis is, to my mind, not enough. I believe that the carriage of mail on a regular basis by surface is a matter of great economic significance. Apart from the inconvenience of delays of letters, postcards, Christmas cards, etc., there is also the most important matter of parcel post which lies at the root of a good deal of the commerce between ourselves, Britain and Europe. I believe it is essential that the matter should be looked into especially in the light of the high costs being incurred nowadays not only in respect of the goods and materials involved in this commerce, but also in regard to the high transport costs involved and the high interest costs incurred by delays in the carriage of goods. For example, if the transmission of goods occupies two months in time, it means, at the present rate of interest, an additional cost of something like 2% merely by way of delay in consequence of the lack of a rapid service. Predictability is also very important in business. As the hon. the Minister will know, if customers are clamouring on the one hand and suppliers are having difficulty in predicting delivery dates on the other hand, it also leads to a breakdown in the reliability in commerce between South Africa and these other countries. I can name many more reasons like this, very strong reasons why the Post Office itself should take a strong initiative in holding out inducements to shipping lines to provide the kind of service we require. I believe if one were to hold out to tender a very important contract, perhaps guaranteeing priority to the particular merchant service which is able to put on ships to provide the service on a regular and rapid basis, this purpose could be served. I think this would not be all that difficult if one bears in mind the basis on which Union Castle originally acquired their contract from the South African Government. It was in response to the rich rewards held out by the South African Government that Union Castle felt justified not only in providing a regular service, but from time to time speeding up its service in order to meet the changes in circumstances. The day of the passenger-mail service is gone. There is no point in regretting it any longer. We have to find a substitute, and not merely haphazard; we have to plan it and have to hold out the right inducements in order to get it. In the interest of commerce in our country and in the interest of restoring this very essential service, I hope action will be taken, inducements will be held out and contracts will eventually be drawn up in order to restore a service which is very sadly missed at the present time.

Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. the Minister will reply to the speech of the hon. member for Constantia in due course. Allow me, Mr. Chairman, to express, as the previous speakers did, my sincere gratitude and appreciation to the hon. the Minister for his dedicated work over many years, and to wish him and his wife everything of the best for the future. We know that we shall still see and hear a lot of him. I also want to wish the hon. member for Vereeniging everything of the best for the new task entrusted to him. We all have full confidence in his capabilities.

The Post Office, like any other business concern, has to wage a serious war on the dangers of inflation. I believe that there is general agreement among us that the Post Office, in contrast to most other concerns, has come through it quite successfully. I wish to remind hon. members that the revenue of the Post Office increased by approximately R74 million over the past year. The profits of the Post Office amounted to R76 million in the past fiscal year as against R82 million the previous year. The net profit as a percentage of the total assets has therefore decreased from approximately 5,5% to 4,3%. I believe that, judged by fair standards and in view of the circumstances, this is a reasonable and good result.

There are a number of reasons why the Post Office management succeeds in running such a vast undertaking successfully. The hon. members have referred to quite a number of reasons and capabilities, for example good management, capable financial handling, technical care, and so on. I should also like to single out one positive factor in the success of the Post Office this afternoon.

I should like to refer to the savings services of the Post Office which undoubtedly contributed to the financial success of the Post Office over the past few years. Let there be no doubt that the fact that the tax-payer is escaping tariff increases for the third consecutive year is largely attributable to the success achieved by the Post Office with these savings services. The Post Office finances its own capital expenditure. In times when loan sums are difficult to come by—and if they can be obtained, only at particularly high interest rates—the availability of funds to the Post Office from its own savings bank investments is particularly advantageous. In the past number of years, the Post Office did not have to borrow anywhere else but from its own savings bank in order to finance its capital expenditure. These loans the Post Office was able to obtain at the very fair interest rate of approximately 8,75%, which obviously placed the Post Office in a far more favourable position than that in which concerns like Iscor and Escom found themselves. It is evident therefore, that the Government displayed great insight by transferring the Savings Bank to the Post Office for utilization for its own account. Up to 1973 the Post Office handled the Savings Bank on an agency basis for the central Government. In 1974 the Post Office took it over on its own account. The Management of the Post Office quickly adjusted interest rates, precisely in order to attract the savings of the public. Additional tax benefits have been added in due course.

I want to refer in detail to the services rendered by the Post Office Savings Bank. Hon. members should actually take cognizance of these services, for I believe we tend to forget their importance, while we ought to encourage support of them. In the first place there is the Post Office Savings Bank Account in which R10 000 per annum can be invested, to which certain tax-free benefits are attached. In the second place there are the Savings Bank Certificates in which a person may invest R20 000 per annum. These certificates earn 8% interest per annum of which up to R800 per year are tax-free. In the third place there are the National Savings Certificates in which a person may invest up to R15 000 per annum; the interest rate on these certificates is 8% in the first year, 8%in the second year and 9% in the third year. The whole of this interest earned is tax-free. These are surely attractive and favourable conditions.

I have requested the latest monthly figures and I should like to furnish them in order to show that a substantial amount of savings is still flowing to the Post Office every month. During January 1978, National Savings Certificates to the amount of R3 909 000 were sold. In the same month R9 454 000 was deposited in current savings accounts. The new intake of the Savings Bank Certificates—during January 1978 only—was approximately R19 million. In the past financial year, investments in the savings services of the Post Office have increased by more than R200 million, to a total amount of approximately R648 million. It is interesting to note that this figure represents only 3,77% of the money invested in the various savings accounts, as for example in building societies.

The success which has been achieved—and no doubt the Post Office has been particularly successful—in attracting savings, bears testimony to very good marketing and, as you know, there are approximately 1 700 post offices scattered throughout the country. Each postmaster makes it his business to become an expert in the field of savings services and makes his expert knowledge available. Pamphlets are readily available everywhere. In addition to that there is one or two thrift officials available in each region of the Post Office. They act as financial advisers to the general public. Obviously they should also be experts as far as the economy is concerned. They also visit schools and encourage thrift. They try to involve the child actively from an early age by launching various savings competitions between schools. All kinds of trophies are put up as prizes. In this way they try to capture the interest of a child. These services are offered at all schools, White, Brown and Black.

Mr. Chairman, it is not every day one gets an opportunity to congratulate the Opposition. This afternoon I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the hon. member for Hillbrow as well as the hon. member for Umhlanga. I think they should in future set aside a day for giving the hon. members for Orange Grove and Amanzimtoti a few lessons on the financing of capital expenditure.

It is important to note the change in tone which we perceive in this debate in comparison with the Railway debates last week. Last week terrific objections were made if one had had to make provision for such spending from one’s own sources of revenue, and had done so to an extent of 30%, but this week, when provision is being made for this to be done to an extent of 40%, it is accepted, and apparently because the tariffs were not increased. I want to congratulate the two hon. members who were the introductory speakers on the Opposition side in the Post Office debate very sincerely indeed. I think they should use their influence in future; perhaps they should simply take the places of the two hon. members who acted as introductory speakers in the Railway debate. It is now apparent that those two hon. members are rather ignorant of the financing of major projects. I must say it is really a fresh wind which is now blowing through this House. One is grateful, after years of struggle, if one is able to observe such a change within the space of a mere week.

One is pleased that things are going so well for the Post Office financially. It has been many years since I last participated in the Post Office budget debates. Formerly the Post Office was not an autonomous body, and it was a bit of a struggle to present the matter in a favourable light. One is grateful that, after so many years, one has such a fine budget based on sound financial principles before one. However, I do not intend to discuss this at length; I should like to discuss a local matter in the few minutes at my disposal. I am referring to the constituency of Vanderbijlpark. As all hon. members know, it is a constituency which has grown with tremendous rapidity during the past few years. During the number of years I have been sitting here, we have had to contend with one problem in particular. I do not wish to point a finger at the Post Office, but we know that, over the years to which I am referring, we have experienced phenomenal growth throughout South Africa. The demand for telephone services in particular was consequently very heavy, and the demands made on the Post Office were onerous. Over the years we have endured inconvenience as a result of the shortage of telephone services. We are grateful for the services that we have been provided with. A few years ago the waiting list was far longer than it is now. As far as I know the backlog is now only approximately 700 at Vanderbijlpark. I wonder, particularly if the economy were to pick up, whether the hon. the Minister could not refer the Operation Commando to the Vaal Triangle for a while. I am certain that, if they were to pay a visit to Vanderbijlpark, we would be able to eliminate the backlog within a few weeks or months. When the economy then begins to revive I am certain that we will never again fall behind.

In his Second Reading speech the hon. the Minister also referred to the Black areas. I do not know whether the hon. the Minister included the Black areas of the Vaal Triangle in the ones he mentioned. That was not entirely clear to me. However, I now wish to mention them. The areas which I have in mind are Sebokeng, Boipatong, Sharpeville, as well as the Bantu areas at Sasolburg. Perhaps these areas are in fact included in the programme which the hon. member spoke about. But I still want to request that, since we also have more than 300 000 souls there, those areas, if they are not included in the present programme of development, should also be taken into consideration when the Post Office provides the Black areas with the so necessary services. I want to give the hon. the Minister the assurance that the attitude of those Black people is very positive. It is certain that they will not easily launch attacks on trucks, or sabotage equipment. I am thinking in particular now of the reference the hon. Minister made, during his Second Reading speech, to certain installations that had been damaged. The attitude of those Black people is positive, and I am certain that they will greatly appreciate the provision of the aforesaid services.

Finally, there is another little matter which I should like to touch upon. Other hon. members have discussed this before, but I should just like to mention it again. It is in regard to the postal codes. I know that it will perhaps entail greater expenditure since the various regions each have their own telephone directories. Yet I wonder if it is not possible to insert the list of postal codes at the beginning of the telephone directory. The present postal code booklet is very inconvenient. It gets lost so easily and causes a flurry every time a postal code is needed. If one knows that the list of postal codes appears in the telephone directory, I am certain that it will be far more convenient for everyone. It will also facilitate the sorting of post in post offices.

Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. the Minister probably feels at this stage like the old clergyman who decided after all the farewell speeches that he would rather not accept the call any more. He was really very pleased with all the nice things said about him and all the praise he received. I think the hon. the Minister is definitely ending his career on a very high note. On behalf of the SAP I should like to congratulate him cordially on this budget, and I want to wish him everything of the best, as well as good health and a long and peaceful future. We hope he will enjoy it. With regard to the remark the hon. the Minister made to the hon. member for Johannesburg North, I should just like to warn him not to undertake a study of law as a hobby because he could find himself in the position of a judge one of these days. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Overvaal made a plea for the abolition of public telephones. Although I have sympathy with the problems the hon. member sees, I cannot agree with him that public telephones should be abolished. I should rather ask that, especially in our urban areas …

I was only talking about telephone booths!

Very well then. It seems to me the hon. member and I are tuned into the same wave length now. I actually want to ask for more public telephones, especially in our urban areas. I think that there is in fact a shortage of them. However, I fully agree with the hon. member for Overvaal when he says that telephone booths should be abolished and that public telephones—like the ones we find at airports, for instance—should be installed on the streets. I believe fewer telephones will then be damaged because there is no telephone booth in which evildoers can hide while they are doing their damage. I therefore want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider supplying more of this type of public telephone in our urban areas.

†Then, Mr. Chairman, there is the question of the police emergency number which has recently been announced. This number will in future be uniform throughout the main centres where automatic telephone exchanges exist. I think it is rather a pity that this is such a long number. It consists of five digits. More than likely there is some technical reason for having such a long number, but it would have been so much more convenient if it could have been a three digit number or even a two digit number. If it has to be a five digit number, then 10111 is rather difficult. To us it may be easy, but I should imagine that elderly or younger people will find it very difficult to dial that number. It would have been so much easier if the number could have been 11111, or 99999, whichever number was decided upon. As I have said, there is more than likely a reason for having five digits. The number has already been announced and is already in operation in certain areas. I want to say that this is a step in the right direction. I think it is going to serve a very useful purpose. Here again I would like to ask that more publicity be given to the number.

*To return briefly to the budget, I see that the amount needed for telephone directories is R1 million more this year than last year. In the past directories were made available every two years. That gave rise to certain problems, but I wonder whether the time has not come to again consider making the directories available on a two-yearly basis. One has to take the fact into account that an additional R1 million is needed to replace the telephone directories every year. The total cost now comes to R7 million per annum, and I think it can be regarded as a luxury to make them available every year. I wonder if consideration could not be given to issuing the directories on a two-yearly basis again. Additional number changes can then be issued from time to time. One of the hon. members opposite referred to the amount of paper used in this way. He pointed out that the paper used would stretch for thousands of miles. If one considers that paper is an expensive article today, I think that the issuing of telephone directories on a two-yearly basis should be considered. Possibly the hon. the Minister’s successor will consider this in order to try and effect a saving in this regard.

†Mr. Chairman, I never thought that I would see the day when I would agree with the hon. member for Pinelands.

You are kidding!

Yes, I never thought it would happen.

Why, do you also like Donald Woods?

He raised a question on which I am compelled to support him.

*Unfortunately there is a saying which goes: “You will be known by the company you keep.” The hon. member for Pinelands spoiled his speech this afternoon and in so doing made it very difficult for me to support him, because he said that he admires Donald Woods.

†Mr. Chairman, if you admire Donald Woods, you also admire Mugabe, Nkomo, Owen, Young and that whole crowd, because they are all friends. They are all admirers of each other.

What a stupid thing to say.

It is a pity the hon. member for Pinelands is not here. Perhaps he is also swimming a river somewhere at this stage. [Interjections.]

*A South African who can admit that he admires Donald Woods is not worthy of the name “South African”. The hon. member objected to the fact, as he put it, that Donald Woods’s post had been tampered with. He then asked the hon. member for Standerton whether his post had ever been opened. My reply to that is that it does not matter whether the hon. member’s post has been tampered with or not. The question is: Is there a reason to tamper with someone’s post? I believe that if the post was tampered with, there was a reason for it. That post was then suspect. The hon. member for Standerton can reply to this himself, but I am convinced that there has never been a reason to tamper with his post, just as there has never been a reason for me to swim a river in order to run away from South Africa.

They have not banned you, that is why! [Interjections.]

Perhaps the hon. member for Pinelands is worried about his post in future.

Yes, I am actually.

Now I come to the matter which the hon. member raised. There is a group of Post Office pensioners who certainly have a problem in my opinion.

Do you agree with that?

I certainly do. If you had been here at the beginning you would certainly have known by now that I agree with it.

I am glad.

However, that is all I agree with as far as you are concerned.

Thanks very much!

This group of Post Office pensioners to which the hon. member for Pinelands referred, is a group of people who unfortunately, as a result of the present state of affairs, do not find themselves in the same financial position as some of their colleagues. Naturally one can understand that there should be a difference, because a line has to be drawn somewhere. Of course everybody has not contributed in the same measure to pension schemes, everybody does not have the same years of service, etc. However, the hon. member raised an example here of circumstances which are virtually the same. Nevertheless the difference in pension benefits is so great that the interests of that specific group of pensioners should be taken care of, in my opinion. Perhaps an investigation can be carried out to see whether these people are not being prejudiced unfairly. I personally know the case of a Post Office pensioner and I also know his house. It is not that he has a luxury house. On the contrary. It is a very humble house he has, but when he has paid his rent he and his wife have exactly R100 per month to live on. I pity such people. Therefore, it is for this reason that I support the appeal made to the hon. the Minister by the hon. member for Pinelands. We should see whether we cannot do something for those people who retired on pension before 1973. I am sure that the number cannot be too great and I am convinced that those people gave wonderful service during their careers in the Post Office. Perhaps, therefore, we owe it to them to see whether we cannot make things easier for them.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. members who have taken part in the Committee Stage discussions thus far have covered a very wide field. In the course of the debate a large variety of the various branches of activity of the Post Office have been touched on. I am grateful that in general the approach has been positive and that there has been much appreciation from various hon. members on both sides of the House for the work done by the Post Office and for the way in which it has been done. Here and there suggestions have been made, suggestions which we shall probably consider. There were also a few points of criticism expressed to which I hope to reply.

I want to begin with the few most important aspects mentioned at the outset with regard to the budget as such. Firstly, I refer to the remarks made yesterday by the hon. member for Hillbrow in the Second Reading debate and his further remarks today. His point of view is that there is supposedly too much fat in the budget. If I understand him correctly, I see in this the reproach—albeit a covert one—that we are in fact concealing certain reserves. He is of course entitled to his own opinion on the matter and I do not take it amiss of him that he expressed it here. When I call to mind the fact that the Post Office, with all the experts and sophisticated apparatus at its disposal, is in a position to submit a detailed statement of revenue, expenditure and estimates to the Minister every month so that we know from month to month what the projections are I nevertheless find his opinion interesting. When I also consider that the top management of the Post Office meets regularly and holds discussions about trends which are encountered, I must really say that I find it strange that an hon. member who has to criticize the Post Office budget here as a chief spokesman for the first time should be able to utter so much wisdom as the hon. member for Hillbrow thinks he possesses. I want to give him some good advice. He will probably serve on behalf of his party on the Select Committee which reports on Post Office accounts and there he will probably learn a great deal in the course of time.

After he has acquired the necessary knowledge, he will see that the misgivings he has had may not be entirely justified. I want to point out that the Post Office was so spot-on with its estimate this year that it was not even necessary for it to submit an additional appropriation. It is true that an additional amount must be appropriated in the budget, but this is an excess of less than the 2% for which the Post Office Act provides. In other words, if the Post Office’s budget is so spot-on that it need not even submit an additional appropriation, surely one cannot believe that we have built into it concealed reserves and that we are trying to mislead the public. Furthermore our accounts are made available to the Auditor-General for inspection and auditing and the Select Committee of Parliament which inspects them will undoubtedly report accordingly if irregularities occur or if suspicion is justified. I think that the longer the hon. member serves on the Select Committee the more knowledge of this matter he will acquire.

The hon. members for Hillbrow and Vasco both referred to the achievement bonus. They welcomed it, but they also asked how it was going to be allocated. At this stage I am unable to give any final answer because we shall want to take our decisions on this matter in consultation with the staff associations and after consultation with the Staff Management Board. However, I can give hon. members an indication of what we had in mind when we decided that we wanted to afford officials this recognition. In the first place, we more or less decided that we should like to pay it before or by 30 June. We feel that we want to pay it irrespective of the colour of the Post Office worker. In other words, irrespective of whether it be an Indian, a Coloured, a Bantu or a White person we want everyone to share in the bonus because everyone played a part in that achievement irrespective of the degree of responsibility they bore and the service they rendered. Everyone rendered an essential service and that is why I say that all are entitled to this recognition. We want to pay it to everyone who has been employed for at least a year in posts on the permanent establishment. We considered that we did not merely want to pay them a percentage of their salaries, but instead wanted to see whether it would not be possible perhaps to pay those who had smaller incomes a little more than those who could get by more easily without it. That is what I can say about the achievement bonus at this stage.

Then, reference was made by various hon. members—the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central referred to it just before I rose to speak, and the hon. members for Overvaal and Hillbrow did so too—to the street booths for telephones. They asked whether they were not obsolete and whether we should not make greater use of table models which could be installed at places where there would be better supervision and control. I want to assure hon. members that this is indeed the policy of the Post Office. We are extending this system but it is not a thing one can do overnight; and indeed, it will not even be possible to do it in a few years. One must obtain the co-operation of the owner of such business premises. The pros and cons of such a telephone at the public’s disposal must be brought home to him. We have got so far as to prepare boards to be displayed outside the premises of such business undertaking to indicate that there is a telephone at the public’s disposal. We are therefore making progress in that direction but it will take some time. Whether we shall eventually be able to eliminate all street telephone booths is a difficult question to reply to conclusively at this stage. We have various types of street telephone booths and the hon. members have probably seen some of the very latest. We are trying to eliminate the problems which give rise to the abuse of those telephone booths, but whether we shall be able to eliminate them entirely remains an open question.

Then, too, a very important matter was raised to which I want to devote more time in my reply. It was raised by the hon. member for Mooi River who apologized for not being able to be present for my reply. The matter was also touched on by the hon. member for Sea Point. These two hon. members have similar problems. The issue is the allocation of frequencies for private radio communication.

I want to assure them at once that I agree wholeheartedly with the statement that radio communication is of vital importance in emergency conditions, particularly when disruptions of the normal telecommunication services or even of the power supply may occur. Having said that, I must also say that when one wants to share the ether, one’s possibilities are not unlimited. Indeed, the frequencies which may be allocated are limited, and on the other hand it is also vital that the allocation of frequencies be done in such a way that one will not eventually cause greater chaos in the ether than the order one is trying to establish by allocating those frequencies. Perhaps the quickest way to reply to this plea is to quote from a letter I sent last week to the chairman of the Babanango Farmers’ Association. This is one of the areas to which the hon. member for Mooi River referred. The problem is expounded in the letter, and besides the passages I shall quote from the letter, I shall support my statements with facts.

Mr. Chairman, the 27 MHz B band was planned in co-operation with the S.A. Defence Force about 18 months ago to meet the needs of a civil defence system. The band in question has never before used in South Africa. We now have the additional problem that when we employed the band for these purposes, the radio dealers also used that band to present the apparatus which they sold in that band. Substantial misrepresentations were made by certain radio dealers. This is unfortunately the case and I should like to address a warning today to the public of South Africa who purchase this apparatus. They must not allow themselves to be misled by people who will tell them anything. I want to tell hon. members—I shall quote from the letter—that some of the firms offer the apparatus to people—the apparatus we are referring to now is expensive, because what I have in mind is not an ordinary small radio— and then they are told that they have an unlimited number of frequencies and channels on this apparatus. The firms even maintain that they have obtained the verbal permission of the Post Office for it to be used. The unsuspecting purchasers purchase that apparatus and eventually find that they cannot or may not use it. I quote—

They want to be able to communicate with each other—

From what I have quoted here and what I added to it, I hope that it will be clear to the hon. House that this matter must be approached with great circumspection and that there should be understanding for the problems which the Post Office, too, experiences in this connection.

I should like to quote from a report concerning what happened in the region to which the hon. member for Mooi River referred. I shall deal later with the aspect raised by the hon. member for Sea Point in this connection. I want to state here that radio dealers have been fully informed with regard to the system, the procedure and the requirements, despite the fact that they are bound out to carry out the provisions of the legislation, just as we are all subject to the law, even though we are not aware of all the laws. However, we have found that apparatus is delivered to farmers even before a system has been planned by the civil defence authorities, and before licences have been issued for them. This has also happened in the case of the farmers’ associations of Mooi River and Babanango. Moreover, certain traders also ignored the frequency requirements and I want hon. members to listen carefully to the following—

Therefore they were able to chat together about everything under the sun. “In die geval van die boereverenigings van Mooirivier en Babanango was ons verplig om die apparaat te laat verseël. So ’n stap veroorsaak groot ontevredenheid onder die boere en dit is heel begryplik en daarom verstaan ek ook die vertoë wat hul Parlementslid, die agb. lid vir Mooirivier, tot my rig.”

I have sympathy with him but I think that he too will know, if he is acquainted with the facts, that we were unable to act in any other way. We have to regulate this matter properly if we are to set the system in operation, in such a way that when there is a real need we shall be able to make use of it to good effect. In order to prevent the development of a chaotic situation which would frustrate the aim of the system, viz. to make civil defence possible when there is a real emergency situation, the matter was reconsidered in October 1977 in co-operation with the Defence Force and the following decision was taken—

I have already mentioned that the other 10 channels are reserved for Government departments, municipalities and security guards—

It is clear, therefore, that the Post Office is not adopting a rigid and unyielding attitude in this regard. The Post Office perceives the problems of the population and tries to be helpful, but cannot permit chaos, which has already raised its head, to continue unchecked.

I now want to deal with the hon. member for Sea Point, who championed a very commendable cause on behalf of the police reservists of Sea Point. He has already written to me in this regard and I have replied. What is the request? The reservists possess apparatus which they would like to use on a specific frequency. In other words, instead of the Post Office telling them that they can use a specific frequency that is available, they want to say to the Post Office that they have an apparatus which they want to use on a specific frequency. In my reply to the letter by the hon. member for Sea Point, I pointed out that the 68,750 MHz frequency was allocated to the police reservists in the Claremont/Wynberg area, and is already being shared by five users.

If this channel is also allocated to the police reservists of Sea Point, it will cause an overload and the position could occur that the purpose of the apparatus would be frustrated because too many people were permitted to use the channel. In my letter to the hon. member I said—

Is that not a fair standpoint which we have adopted? It is really the function of the reservists to communicate with the police and we have created the possibility for them of linking up with the police’s channel. I hope we shall be able to help them in this way. I really think it was unnecessary to raise this matter in the House. Perhaps the hon. the Leader of the Opposition wanted to make an impression on his voters. [Interjections.] I cannot allocate frequencies across the floor of the House to the hon. member or to any other hon. member. The matter is not as simple as that. [Interjections.]

Why did the Police not reply?

One does not reply to any letter the moment you receive it. The police are studying the proposition and I am sure that I shall in due course get a reply.

*I now wish to continue and discuss certain other aspects that have been raised. The hon. member for Sea Point also asked whether Indians trained as technicians could also work in the Cape Peninsula. I want to tell him that there is no prohibition on that. However, the Peninsula is traditionally the Coloureds’ area. If I were to allow Indians to be employed here in the Peninsula, what should I do with the Coloureds? Must I send them to the Free State? Or where should I send them? We train these people and we use them where we can make best use of them, taking into account all the circumstances. In the same way we give preference to Indians in Natal. I think this is a reasonable and sensible standpoint to adopt. The hon. member for Vasco asked whether there was an exchange of information, whether we made information at our disposal available to other Government departments. It goes without saying that we liaise very closely with the Public Service Commission which really performs the co-ordinating function among the various State departments. What use they make of that and whether they can make use of the specialized information which we have, information which in many respects is sui generis, I do not know. The existing channel is the Public Service Commission.

The other matter raised relates to the pensions of Post Office workers, particularly those who retired before 1973. However the scope of the matter is far wider than Post Office pensioners. However, in this debate I shall confine myself to Post Office pensioners because we are now dealing with the Post Office budget. I should like to say to the hon. member for Vereeniging that it is by no means an unmixed blessing to combine the portfolios of Posts and Telecommunications and of Social Welfare and Pensions, because through the one one hears complaints about telephones and through the other one hears complaints about pensions. Therefore it is perhaps as well that he should attend this debate in order to see what happens. As Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions I do of course have the utmost sympathy with our pensioners because I represent a Government which is not only sympathetic towards the people, but has also furnished conclusive proof of this throughout its term in office by making concessions to pensioners previously employed by it, as far as possible and to the extent that the country could afford it. It is true that the pensions of those who retired from the employment of the State before 1973, are low. The reason is obvious, viz. that salaries were low at that time. Now, it is only human—although it is a mistaken point of view—that these pensioners should compare the position with the existing occupants of such posts or with comparable posts.

A postmaster who retired before 1973 states that his pension is so small that it is today comparable with the pension of a senior postman, for example. That is not a fair comparison, but nevertheless I understand the man’s difficulty because the point he really wants to make is that his pension is too small. What has the Government done to improve the pensions of those people in particular? The hon. member for Pinelands saw fit to refer to the Railway pensioners who retired before 1973. Before the increases in Railway pensions were announced two years ago, the Railway pensioners again complained that our pensioners received more than they did. This is a comparison and a complaint one always encounters among pensioners. I say that I understand this. I do not say that it is wrong. But this is in fact the game that is played as far as this matter is concerned. What has the Government done with regard to these pensioners? Already on two occasions we have increased the pensions of those people who retired before 1973 by a larger amount than the pensions of those who retired after this time. On each occasion we increased them by a minimum of R25 per month and have already done so on two occasions. I am no prophet, but I want to say that if and when the country can afford it, the Government clearly will not forget those people. We are aware of their problems. The pensions of many of the pensioners falling into the pre-1973 group have already been increased by more than 300%, which is a not inconsiderable amount. I see the hon. member for Musgrave is smiling. I do not know whether that is because I referred to 300%. However, let us forget about the percentage if that bothers him. The position of many of those pensioners has been improved to such an extent in the interim that it would surprise hon. members to learn the true figure. That is why I said to the hon. member for Pinelands last year that he should give me a specific case so that I could have that case calculated. Then I shall indicate to that pensioner that if his pension is calculated in terms of the formula that applies today, and we compare it with what he receives from the Government by way of concessions made in the course of time, he will undoubtedly choose rather to be dependent on the concessions which the Government makes to him from time to time, where possible. To repeat: The position of the pre-1973 pensioners is better, due to the concessions which the Government has made from time to time and which it will probably make again in the future if possible, than it would have been when their pensions were calculated in terms of the present formula. The reason is obvious: Salaries are so much higher today. Pensioners take up a great deal of the attention of a member of Parliament. They are one of his major problems, a problem not only for the members of the Opposition, but for members on the Government side as well. Hon. members on my side of the House deal with the same problems; they have to furnish the same reply. The fact which we may not overlook is that the Government on behalf of which I am speaking here today has furnished clear proof, through what it has done for these people in the past, of its goodwill towards them and I have no doubt that if it should be possible in future to accommodate these people again, and to do so repeatedly, this Government will do so.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister referred to my comment that the Railways were able to give a 20% increase to pensioners who retired before 1 December 1973. I really do not think that he answered that. The Railways did that because of the wide gap and I am wondering if the Post Office cannot do something similar.

The Railways’ defence is that their pensions were in fact smaller than those paid to pensioners by the Government Service Pension Fund. Consequently they did that in order to bring their pensions into line, because we had allocated increases on two previous occasions. Now the situation is again occurring that some of the Post Office and Government service pensioners are drawing a comparison with the pensioners of the Railways. These are circumstances that are not always comparable because the adjustments are not always effected at the same juncture. This is the true reason.

The hon. member for Pinelands also referred to the opening of letters. The Post Office does not open any letters. We do not tamper with mail, except in terms of certain provisions laid down in the Post Office Act. There are certain things which may not be sent by mail, for example fire-arms, etc. It goes without saying that such articles of mail will not be handled and despatched by the Post Office. As far as the opening of articles of mail is concerned, I want to say to the hon. member that the Post Office acts in strict accordance with the provisions of the Post Office Act. That it is all I have to say in this regard. We ourselves do not open mail.

Mr. Chairman, my time expired just as I was about to put a question to the hon. the Minister. If I may, I want to put it now. The question I wanted to put to the hon. the Minister was not in relation to the Act, but in relation to policy. I refer now to a statement made by Mr. F. J. Theron, Deputy Postmaster-General for Staff and Posts. He actually made a press statement in which he said that they had handed over certain mail addressed to Mr. Donald Woods on the request of the Security Police. Is it then the policy of the Post Office to make statements of this kind; if so, how many other people are being involved?

Mr. Chairman, I asked the hon. member by way of an interjection whether he knew the Act.

Yes, I know the Act!

I want to tell the hon. member that the Post Office obviously acts strictly in accordance with the provisions of the Act. If the police claim an article of mail on the basis of the legal provision mentioned, the Post Office is legally entitled, and also obliged, to react. The hon. member need not think that such things only happen in South Africa.

I did not say that.

I know, but I really wanted to anticipate the hon. member.

I want to know whether it is your policy to announce these things!

Mr. Chairman, we act in terms of the Act. If inquiries are made, then naturally we are not ashamed of announcing it. This is a matter which is dealt with in a similar way by the majority of post offices in the world. Perhaps other post offices do it in an underhand way. In our case, however, our powers are laid down in the Act and merely give effect to that.

I now hasten to deal with certain other matters.

†The hon. member for Durban North is, in some measure, a man after my own heart, because he raised a few points concerning the training and selection of staff. He asked me a few questions in this regard and also referred to the item “psychiatrist” and to the salary allotted to this post. If the hon. member were to look at the Afrikaans translation on the opposite side of the page he would see it reads “sielkundige”. “Senior sielkundige” is the term used in the Afrikaans translation. The word “psychiatrist” was perhaps not a happy translation. In fact, this item concerns a psychologist, a person with an M.Sc. degree. This is a fairly new service that we have started and the official may be on the lower end of the salary scale. In due course he will, however, progress on the scale, and as the service develops, nothing prevents us from appointing more people. We are breaking new ground in this field, and that also explains the five posts to which the hon. member referred.

*I also want to say to the hon. member that it is clearly impossible to select all the officials employed by the Post Office. At this stage it is simply not possible. However, this is a service for which there is a demand, and we shall of course develop this service as far as possible.

The hon. member for Constantia referred to delays in connection with the overseas mail. I, too, referred to this in my Second Reading speech. Unfortunately it is true that since some of the container ships have been used, the service has not been quite so regular as it was in the case of the old mail boats. I have already expressed my appreciation for the service we have enjoyed in the past, but I also pointed out that these are merely difficulties which were being experienced at this initial stage, and that they would be ironed out in the course of time. I suspect that the complaints which the hon. member received with regard to the long delays also had a great deal to do with the week-long strikes which took place in Southampton and France. I do not think, therefore, that the delays were only in respect of the service provided by the ships. However I want to give him the assurance that as more ships are taken into use, these problems will be solved. We hope to enjoy the same kind of service in the future as we had in the past.

The hon. member also referred to the difference in time in various countries and said it would be useful to have a diagram in the front of the telephone directory indicating the difference in time between various countries. I accepted that suggestion as long ago as last year. If I remember correctly, it was the then hon. member for Berea, the present hon. member’s father, who made the suggestion. As far as I know the department is dealing with this matter. In any event, we shall take the suggestion into account and go into it further.

The hon. member for Eshowe referred to the contribution of the savings services to the success which the Post Office has achieved and is still achieving. I am grateful that he did so because this is indeed the case. Yesterday, in reply to the proposal by the hon. member for Durban Central that consideration be given to the introduction of a stabilization fund, I pointed out that the Post Office did not really need it because it had its own bank which could serve to a large extent as a stabilization fund.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central referred to the large quantities of paper used for the purposes of the telephone directory and asked whether we could not issue the directory on a biennial basis. I want to tell the hon. member that we are engaged in a rapid programme of automation. So many changes are being effected that it is impossible to lay down a hard and fast rule that we should only publish the book once every two years. However, we can always consider the matter when the position is more stable.

The hon. member also referred to the emergency number. I agree wholeheartedly with his argument, but for technical reasons it was impossible to obtain a simpler number than 10111. We shall therefore have to retain it.

The hon. member for Vanderbijlpark asked that “Operation Commando” pay a visit to Vanderbijlpark as well. I want to tell him that there are various other regions which have an equally valid claim. Unfortunately, if one wants to expand the capacity of the network, and one has to lay new cables, then in the nature of the matter, one has to determine priorities. The areas where the need is greatest must be assisted first. Very high capital requirements and manpower requirements must be taken into account, and it is not possible simply to do this on an unplanned basis. I also want to tell him that the non-White residential areas in the Vaal Triangle, are in fact included in the five-year programme to which I referred.

Arising out of last year’s debate we also considered the possibility of publishing the postal codes in the telephone directory. However we found that this was not practicable. The printing costs of this are tremendously high and we have difficulties with directories which are already too bulky. Furthermore, everyone must have the postal codes, whereas not everyone requires the telephone directories. That is why we prefer to publish them separately so that the postal codes are available to everyone who needs them.

The hon. member for Klerksdorp made a very interesting speech about the philately services of the Post Office, and I am pleased that he mentioned them because this is one of the branches in which very commendable progress has been made.

The hon. member for Overvaal said that we should publicize the fact, among tourists in particular, that they can make phone calls overseas from post offices without having to pay hotel levies. This is a praiseworthy suggestion, but I doubt whether the hotels that would be able to make that kind of propaganda would be in favour of doing so. Perhaps the Department of Tourism should give attention to the matter.

To conclude, I want to thank various hon. members who really furnished glowing testimonials for various branches of the activities of the Post Office. Here I have in mind, for example, the hon. members for Verwoerdburg, Rosettenville, Durbanville and Standerton to mention just a few. To them, too, I want to say that we shall continue on this basis.

Mr. Chairman, I want to mention a matter which has already been mentioned by the hon. the Minister in his Second Reading speech, as well as by the hon. member for Klerksdorp. I refer to the matter of the philatelic services, or, as we would say, the interests of the stamp-collectors. It so happens that I also have a reasonable amount of knowledge of how the Postage Stamp Advisory Committee came into being, and perhaps it is necessary at this stage to give a brief account of its history.

It was in 1965 that the then Minister of Posts and Telecommunications came to the conclusion that to celebrate the fifth anniversary of the existence of the Republic—i.e. on 31 May 1966—special stamps had to be issued to commemorate the event. The then Minister consequently consulted several people who were interested in the arts—he also consulted artists—and after that a small committee was formed and agreements were reached with specific artists for specific commissions. A set of stamps was issued on that occasion. I must admit that it was not popular with everyone, because the artists we had chosen had cast the designs in the modern idiom. Therefore it was not very popular with the general public. The next set of stamps was done by someone else. One of the Deputy Postmasters-General and the Government Printer served on this committee, because those two organizations have to work very closely together to be able to produce a good product. Today the position is still the same except in one respect, which is that the Postmaster-General himself is now the chairman of this specific advisory committee. The success which has been achieved must surely be known to all the members here who are interested in philately or stamp-collecting, or to those who regularly get to see the various sets issued by the Post Office. So great was the success that, as the hon. the Minister announced in his speech, the revenue, obtained just from the money stamp-collectors pay the Post Office to acquire these sets amounted to more than R2 300 000 in one financial year. Hon. members will probably be surprised to know that the revenue in 1966 was only a little more than R60 000. When it was R90 000 in the following year, we regarded it as an extraordinary achievement that so much revenue could be found for the country from this particular source. Today, however, we accept it as a matter of course.

I want to refer to a very interesting aspect of the particular committee. Because there are so many committees in Pretoria and because there are so many professional committee members who all serve on these committees or want to serve on them because of the travel and subsistence allowances it was decided in 1965, after consultation, that if we wanted people serving on this committee who were really in earnest about good stamp designs, we should no longer pay such allowances. The Post Office and the Minister decided at the time that attendance of the committee’s meeting would no longer be remunerated in cash in that way. That is still the case today. The members of the committee are, however, paid in another way. They receive a few first-day envelopes, etc., as a gift as acknowledgment for their services.

Our stamps were not only very successful earners of revenue, but were artistically successful as well. Mr. Chairman, you will realize that when it comes to the design of a postage stamp, we are in the first place bound by the theme decided on by a higher authority.

Then it must be decided which form the theme will take and an artist must be chosen; and in five out of ten cases, if it is not more— the Postmaster-General may correct me if I am wrong—one or another interest group is dissatisfied. One will say that the public will not accept a specific design, another will say that it creates the wrong impression overseas, a third will say that the design is too difficult to print and that the machines of the Government Printer will not be able to print it properly and yet another will say that a design must be chosen which will be more popular. In spite of all these different considerations the postage stamp committee nevertheless succeeded in convincing the Post Office and the Minister in 83 cases that the design they had recommended was the right design—and since 31 May 1966 83 different sets of stamps were issued. That is proof of the very good results that were achieved.

These stamps are not only for the collectors: They are also the silent message-bearers of the name of South Africa. In this connection it is interesting to mention another matter. The words “Unie van Suid-Afrika/ Union of South Africa” and afterwards “Republiek van Suid-Afrika/Republic of South Africa” always appeared on our stamps. That was always quite a long story to be printed. Then the advisory committee decided to recommend that we should only use the letters RSA on our stamps. That happened after 1966. The then Minister of Foreign Affairs objected very strongly against the fact that we wanted to use this strange abbreviation because according to him no one in the world would understand it. Fortunately we persevered with that and today, of course, it is taken for granted. You can realize how much easier it is for the artist to introduce only the letters RSA instead of “Republic of South Africa/Republiek van Suid-Afrika”. I mention all this just for the record so that the history of this matter will not be lost.

Mr. Chairman, with reference to the hon. member for Johannesburg North who has chosen philately as his subject, I want to refer to the policy of the Post Office as set out in the latest annual report of the Postmaster-General under the heading “Philately”. As far as special stamps are concerned, the policy of the Post Office is, inter alia, that—

I should like to suggest for consideration that one should add to these conditions that recognition for services rendered should also qualify for a special stamp. We think especially of another manner of according recognition to the Ministers of this department and to the Postmaster-General and also to those who will succeed them in future. Other departments lend themselves to Ministers and senior officers being honoured by naming buildings, airports, etc. after them. However, I am inclined to think that this department is far too unassuming. For that reason I should like to suggest that on the retirement of a Minister or of a Postmaster-General, we should also publish a commemorative stamp to show appreciation towards that person for the services he has rendered. I want to say immediately that in this connection, costs will not be a major factor. When one looks at the head of the present Minister, at the head of the following Minister and at the head of our Postmaster-General, it will be possible to use the same head in all three cases. All that will be required will be to draw in another face. [Interjections.] While I am referring to bald heads, I wish to assure hon. members that there is great appreciation for these three people. They worked so hard for the Department of Posts and Telecommunications that they became bald in the process. Nevertheless, we say thank you to all three of them that through hard study and hard work they have equipped themselves to make such a great success of this department and we also believe that our new hon. Minister will in future make a success of it.

On 17 March 1976—the day after tomorrow, two years ago—the hon. the Minister said the following during his first budget speech and I am reading out a paragraph from it (Hansard, 17 March 1976, col. 3310)—

1. (a) the provision on merit of essential services in the most economical manner for the promotion of efficiency and the development of a healthy economy, with due regard to the financial and manpower resources available to us;
2. (b)the maintenance of the lowest possible tariff structure to combat inflation in the interests of the national economy;
3. (c)the maintenance of favourable working conditions, conditions of service and training possibilities, or the provision of any of these that do not exist, in order to guarantee the happiness, security and contentment of the staff and thereby to encourage their co-operation and the highest possible productivity.

When we look at the budget speeches which the hon. the Minister has delivered during the past two years, and when one looks at the manner in which he has handled the portfolio for the past two years, and we also take note of the budget which he has submitted this year, then one can and wants to say with conviction to the hon. the Minister: “Well done!” It applies not only to the work, but also to the “well done” for the example which the hon. the Minister has set for us in this connection.

It is nevertheless with a measure of sadness that I take leave of the hon. the Minister in this manner tonight. A small part of the North Eastern Free State is known as the Riemland. It is the area which stretches from Frankfort in the north to Danielsrus and Bethlehem in the south and eastwards as far as Warden and Harrismith and westwards as far as Petrus Steyn. This relatively small area of the Free State has for many years already been proud of the fact that two of its sons were serving in the Cabinet, namely former Minister M. C. Botha and Minister Van der Spuy. At the end of this month there will no longer be a Cabinet Minister who had been bred in the Riemland. For that reason I wish to place on record here in the House our appreciation from the Riemland for the service which these hon. Ministers have rendered to South Africa. I also want to say to Minister Van der Spuy and, in his absence, to ex-Minister M. C. Botha that the Riemland is proud of the service which its sons have rendered.

The Riemland has adequate and effective post office buildings. At Reitz and at Bethlehem, new post offices will be commissioned during this year, and at Kestell and Harrismith there are buildings which were completed within the past 12 years, and which, in other words, are relatively new. At Harrismith the post office will probably be converted to automatic exchanges towards the end of this year or the beginning of next year.

Therefore I want to say that we believe that the provision of services on a merit basis by the Post Office has also done justice to the Riemland. When one takes a closer look at the development, one finds that the development sometimes also gives rise to problems or wishes. It means that the old post office at Harrismith, which must make place for the new automatic exchange, will probably have to be demolished. This old post office building was built in the finest tradition from the stone of the Eastern Free State. Therefore I should very much like to ask that the possibility must again be investigated of making use of the old stone post office building at Harrismith for administrative offices or for a second museum. We should appreciate it if the postal Administration would do everything in its power to preserve this building for posterity. I am being reminded that the late Oom Serfie who handled this portfolio at one stage, also hailed from the Riemland. That makes the Riemland even prouder of its sons.

The district of Bethlehem was the first which qualified for an automatic farmline exchange approximately 15 years ago. We believe that that was also awarded on a merit basis. Development has brought about that even the automatic farmlines are today no longer adequate. Therefore I want to plead tonight that the so-called Sor-8 system which makes it possible for nine different people to talk on the same line simultaneously should also be considered for the Riemland. That also applies to the Harrismith area and also the smaller areas which are still served by manually operated exchanges. These parts can and will be linked to mainline exchanges in future.

The Post Office can play a role in the strategic safeguarding of South Africa. We are aware that the material used by the Post Office is easily damaged. The wire or cables which are used are relatively thin. In the urban areas especially, the cables are laid underground and as there are joints, these can become damp and cause short circuits in times of floods. In my view we shall have to give more serious thought to the utilization of the Post Office to its maximum as a strategic aid. Therefore I ask that the department be requested to investigate the possibility of the Post Office, by means of an automatic alarm system, warning people in times of floods that flood waters are on the way. In the case of the floods which struck Pretoria a month or so ago, could it not have been possible, before the cables had been damaged by the flood, to have saved the lives of several people if the Post Office had perhaps, if it was feasible, raised the alarm in advance by warning those people who might become victims of the flood?

Another aspect which the Post Office might perhaps investigate, is the fact that urban terrorism in South Africa is not completely impossible. It is a fact that in the case of urban terrorism and also in the case of robbery, the offenders so often try to isolate their victims from the rest of the area by pulling their telephones from the walls or by cutting the wires. I should therefore like to know whether it is not possible for the Post Office to investigate the possibility of causing an alarm to go off in the exchange building when the telephone contact is broken in this manner. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I wonder how many of us have stood in a queue in a post office and have watched and admired the way in which the counter staff fulfil the wide variety of tasks which are theirs to perform. I also wonder how often we have stood in a queue in a post office with six or seven people ahead of us wanting to buy one or two 4 cent stamps, particularly in the smaller post offices where there is not a special counter for the sale of postage stamps. The people ahead of us in the queue might have required various things. The one might have required a postal order; another to pay a radio licence; yet another to put in some money, while another might have wished to withdraw money. Ten or 15 minutes later, when one finally got to the counter, one was in a rather negative frame of mind about the facilities offered at that counter. I wonder why greater use is not made of stamp-vending machines at all the post offices in the Republic. I believe this would relieve the tremendous amount of pressure that is placed on the counter staff and would make things very much easier for the people who are in a hurry to buy just one or two stamps.

I realize that the time taken to install stamp-vending machines on a fairly wide scale would be quite considerable, and I realize that there is also the cost factor involved. However, I believe we should be investigating this possibility more thoroughly. I have in mind in particular those commonly used denominations which are the same as those for which we have coins. I am obviously referring to the 2, 5 and 10 cent coins. Two 2 cent stamps will fulfil most of the needs that one has for the postage of sealed letters today.

I think there is another possibility that we can look at, namely whether there is not scope in this respect for the employment, on a part-time basis, of some of the young people who are battling to find a job, any job, due to the conditions in which we find ourselves in this country today. I wonder whether there is not scope for the temporary employment of young people, particularly in those post offices where there is not a counter for the sole supply of stamps, to sell stamps only. Before we are told that we cannot expect young people to manage money in this way, I should just like to remind hon. members that there are hundreds if not thousands of very much younger children selling newspapers on street corners throughout the country. I am sure that if they do not balance their budgets daily, they will soon lose their jobs. I think this is a possibility which could perhaps be investigated.

The hon. member for Overvaal made a suggestion that call-boxes be eliminated or phased out because of the high degree of vandalism in connection with these call-boxes. While we know that vandalism is an enormous problem and that it costs the department a large amount of money, I wonder whether there is not another way to solve the problem. They say there are many ways to skin a cat. We realize that the payphones are all very well during the day. In fact, we support the hon. member’s plea for the greater use of these pay-phones. More pay-phones are needed, particularly in the non-White areas and townships around the country. Be that as it may, we must realize that there is still a very definite need for call-boxes particularly because they offer a 24-hour service, which a pay-phone does not offer. When a business closes the pay-phone is no longer available for use. In fact, during the hours of darkness the call-box can be the only means of communication available to some people. I wonder whether it is not possible to investigate the fitting of a locked door to telephone call-boxes with a facility for the insertion of a coin, say a 2 cent coin, to operate the door. I am not naïve enough to believe that this will totally eliminate the question of vandalism, but I do believe it would reduce it significantly, because the open door to a telephone kiosk is an open invitation to any youngster who has time on his hands and a little bit of mischief on his mind, to go inside and meddle around and cause damage. The very fact that the door is locked and that one has to put in a coin to get inside to use the phone would be a deterrent in a very large number of cases. I am fully aware of the fact that the public will turn around and say that they will then have to pay more for their telephone calls, but I wonder if this is not a question of the lesser of two evils, in the sense that it might be better to pay an extra 2c to at least enable one to make a call—because the telephone will at least be in operation—rather than to find that the equipment is unusable. I want to suggest that this is an avenue we could investigate.

Many hon. members have heaped praise on the head of the hon. the Minister. I do not want to join the “dankie” chorus. I want to pay a different form of tribute in a somewhat lighter vein. I hope it will be accepted in the spirit in which it is intended. About 16 months ago around Christmas time the Post Office had a very catchy little jingle. If my memory serves me correctly, it went something like this—

I wonder whether I could offer to the hon. the Minister on the occasion of his retirement a variation on this theme—

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Berea referred to the possibility of an improvement in counter services, to part-time workers in the employ of the Post Office and to the prevention of vandalism at call boxes. Obviously I cannot reply to these matters and I believe that the hon. the Minister will do so.

I want to discuss the automation of telephone exchanges. I am aware of the fact that much has already been said about this and furthermore that the hon. the Minister has furnished a reply in this regard. Yesterday the hon. the Minister of Agriculture referred by way of a question to the telephone exchange in Delmas which is to be automated. I think history will confirm that the first Schoeman who used a telephone and a post office did it in the vicinity of Oudtshoorn. There is a post office there with the name of Schoemans-hoek. Therefore I should like to discuss the automation of telephone services in the rural areas of Oudtshoorn, Joubertina and Union-dale. We are grateful that we already have automation in the town of Oudtshoorn. I understand the department’s policy of first converting into automatic exchanges the bigger manual exchanges which will serve as important switching centres in the national switching network. I also realize that we have to do with the depopulation of our rural areas and that these areas obviously cannot yield the Post Office a large income. They probably also have to consider the matter from the financial point of view. Yet we may not neglect these people in our rural areas. Therefore I want to plead for the automation of manual exchanges in the rural area of Oudtshoorn. Mr. Chairman, when you announced during the weekend when we were in your constituency that there was now FM reception in a certain part of your constituency, there was joy in the hearts of the people. To townspeople, FM reception and automation has been old hat for a long time. Our people in the rural areas, however, still have to do without many of these things. The telephone exchanges of two of Oudtshoorn’s neighbouring towns—I am not going to mention their names or suggest that they are suburbs of Oudtshoorn—have already been fully automated. In other words, all the party lines of these two towns have been converted to automatic operation and I am very grateful for that. This is a major contribution which the Post Office has made in the Southern Cape.

In this connection I should like to mention an example. We have, as hon. members all know, the famous Cango Caves which are visited by approximately 180 000 people annually. If one looks for the Cango Caves in the telephone directory, one has to look under a manual exchange by the name of Cango Valleys. We had a reference made under “Oudtshoorn”, and it said “See Cango Valleys”. But no one can phone the Cango Caves directly from a town or wherever it may be.

I also understand the technical and economic reasons advanced as to why the rural area of Oudtshoorn was not automated at that time. Granted, a few party lines were involved, but the greater part of this rural area in the Oudtshoorn-Joubertina-Uniondale area does not have that. I do not want to slight the Post Office in this connection. Many fine things have been said about them, all of which I endorse, but if one looks at the work that has been done in Oudtshoorn, it unfortunately creates the impression of something which is half-done, whereas a similar situation does not exist in those other towns. The divisional council of Oudtshoorn has already been told in 1972 that the proposals are being considered for inclusion in a programme after 1977. They have just been informed that on account of all its many other obligations, the department does not yet see its way clear to supplying the necessary funds and that provision for this cannot be made in the programme until 1985. In other words, we still have to carry on. We have a town in which the exchange has been automated, but we have a rural area which has been somewhat neglected in this regard.

Yesterday I listened to the hon. member for Rustenburg with his fine ideals for the future as far as our communications network is concerned. I share those ideals, I share his views and I share with him that trust in our country, in our Post Office, the trust that we shall be able to bring these things about. However, one has to be honest. Those are things which lie far in the future. They are things about which one can dream rather fine dreams. It is, however, not quite as nice if one has to tell people that we began making representations as far back as 1972 and that nothing can be said before 1985; after that we can try. By that time it will be getting on for the end of this century. That is why I want to address a request to the hon. the Minister this afternoon, and I wondered whether, before he retires, and because he has done such praiseworthy work—he would not have a look at the Oudtshoorn district with a view to including it in the programme up to 1985. If the hon. the Minister does not have the time for that, I will look to the hon. member for Vereeniging to see whether he cannot take over this problem. I believe that if I invite him to Oudtshoorn and show him around a little in the beautiful surrounding areas, he will say that a start has to be made immediately. I appeal to the hon. the Minister not to neglect our people in the rural areas.

Mr. Chairman, there are still a few matters which I should like to raise concerning this budget. Firstly, I should again like to refer to the bad telephone service in the sense that many people experience a long wait to obtain a dialling tone, they get crossed lines and they also obtain wrong numbers. I think that certain instructions should be given to meet the case when one repeatedly gets a particular number which is the wrong number all the time. The person on the other end of the line should be asked to keep the receiver off the hook until one gets through to the right number. I am sure there must be certain instructions that the department can issue to the public in order to alleviate this difficulty. On this question of wrong numbers and particularly the crossed lines, I should like to say one is often connected to conversations. This happens so frequently that one should be very careful if one is discussing anything confidential, because one never knows who may be on that line. I am sure that many other hon. members have received complaints from people who say that they are sure that their telephone is being tapped. I have looked at section 118A of the Post Office Act, 1958, with regard to the right of the department to have telephones tapped. Sure enough, the right exists. It is a legal right. A person who is legally authorized to do so, can give instructions to have telephones tapped over a certain period. I believe, however, that the hon. the Minister should give some assurance of some kind. I should, for example, want to be sure that no telephone of an hon. member of Parliament is being tapped. I should want to be sure that tapping does not take place except in very rare cases. I believe this is the sort of assurance that the hon. the Minister is able to give.

The next point I want to raise is in connection with the rediffusion service. The hon. the Minister will certainly be aware of the fact that this is an expensive system. It is employed in certain areas. Where one has a rediffusion service, and where the cables are laid underground, one in fact avoids the erection of antennas and thus gets a far better service. From an aesthetic point of view, one also has a far more beautiful environment than so many people have in other parts of the world. It is true that our antennas are being erected in accordance with SABS standards. I think that is quite a good thing. However, when one looks at an area like Hillbrow where thousands of people are living in very tall buildings and very close to each other, one finds that the reception is not all that good. I would like the hon. the Minister to investigate the feasibility of introducing a rediffusion service in densely populated areas like Hillbrow. I believe that this can be made possible, especially when new cables are installed underground. Simultaneously with the installation of those new cables, I believe, it is possible for a rediffusion service to be introduced in order to provide a better service. I am sure it will be of benefit to all people concerned.

I now want to refer to the question of bad debts. The hon. the Minister made no mention in his speech today of bad debts. However, looking at his last report, we find that, although it is only 19c per R100 of revenue that is written off, it still amounts to R979 377. This is the figure given as at 31 March 1977. With business going the way it does at the moment, I am sure the position will now be somewhat worse than it was at the given date. I would like the hon. the Minister to tell us whether proper steps have been taken in order to try to trace the debtors. I would also like to know whether the Department of the Interior and the Government are at the disposal of the postal services so that the latter can obtain the names and addresses of the debtors concerned, and whether the 20 510 cases of unpaid telephone accounts mentioned in the report cannot be disposed of in a better way. The figure given in the report represents a 56% increase over that of the previous year, and I do not know what the figures will be for the current year.

Since the Post Office is the agent for television services and, as such, supplies the actual technical know-how and mechanization for television, and also acts as an agent receiving licence money of R36 per television set, I want to raise what I regard as a very sore point with the public. Why do members of the public have to pay R36 for every single television set that they possess? If someone has more than one television set, why cannot he be treated like a radio licence holder who buys only one licence regardless of the number of radio sets he has? I believe that the hon. the Minister should bring a little pressure to bear on his colleagues, as the final responsibility I believe, rests with his colleagues, to allow the public, as well as organizations and institutions, to possess more than one television set without having to pay for more than one licence.

Then I would like to raise the question of the defence bonds, for which the Post Office is also the agent. The Post Office receives a commission of 0,5%, but it takes up many members of staff and there is a lot of confusion in the minds of the public with regard to the exact working of the defence bonds. Many people are not sure whether they are entitled to participate in certain draws or not. There is confusion on this point, perhaps as a result of the report in the Press that the October-November sales of bonds will now be drawn. I do not think that five out of 10 people are aware of the fact that once you buy a defence bond, you are in every single draw. Proper publicity should be given to this aspect. The bonds should be advertised properly, and since the Post Office is the agent for the sales, it should see that this is done.

The last matter to which I wish to refer is the erection of microwave towers. We have a very fine microwave tower in Hillbrow, and there is also one in Brixton. I read in the Press recently that two further microwave towers were contemplated. One of these was to have been erected in Cape Town. I understand that the Minister has decided not to proceed with this tower. There have been Press statements in this connection, but I think the people of Cape Town would like to know whether there will be a microwave tower or not. One tower is being erected in Muckleneuk in Pretoria. I do not think there should be any difficulty in that regard. When I say “difficulty”, I refer to the experience we had in Hillbrow. The hon. the Minister was not responsible for this portfolio at the time, but we had terrible problems with the erection of that tower in Hillbrow. 24 hours a day the people of Hillbrow experienced these problems when the microwave tower was erected in the very heart of flatland. Building operations took place throughout the day and throughout the night. Cement went flying across the flats and onto the cars and the people below. The noise problems were continuous. Since the Government is exempt from town-planning regulations, and, in fact, from all other regulations, the local authorities and even the provincial authorities had no say over the methods of construction. Not even the laws which had been introduced to prevent people from making a noise as a result of building operations between sunset and sunrise applied in this case. I think the hon. the Minister and his department should ensure that when further microwave towers are erected, the same problems do not again arise.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Hillbrow has now had quite a number of turns to speak. He started off his first speech quite well, but now he has started to become very negative. He wants a microwave tower built, but the bricks and the cement must not be brought near the place where the tower has to be built. Imagine that!

The hon. member for Hillbrow made a very nasty remark this afternoon. It appears to me that he wanted to create the impression that the telephones of members of Parliament are being tapped. I hope I misunderstood him. I want to tell him that in South Africa, where we have civilized standards, these things are not done. That does not apply to those persons who have unlawful things in mind. They, of course, are watched.

Except for a few negative noises which I have heard during the past two days, I have wondered whether there has ever been a Minister to whom so much tribute has been paid as to the present Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. That tribute has not only been paid to him, but also to the Postmaster-General and the staff. I do not think that was undeserved.

What is wrong with agriculture?

Sir, this tribute was well-deserved. On the front page of the department’s annual report there is a lovely protea, a perfect flower. I think all who have participated in this debate, will agree that the period of service of the hon. the Minister is being rounded off with a perfect financial year, a perfect annual report and a perfect achievement on the part of the Minister. That of course also includes his staff, because he would never have been able to do it alone. There is one thing which I should like to ask, and that is that these well-deserved compliments should not go to the head. It is almost adjournment time and I think many hon. members can go and drink a glass of wine to the achievements of the Post Office tonight. One or two glasses can go to the head, and then people often talk too much. I know that the praise showered the department will not go to their heads, because they have really gone about accomplishing what they have done in a calculated way. I have before me three leading articles from three different newspapers, and I just want to quote one short sentence from each. These are not articles written by correspondents of newspapers, they are leading articles written, so I understand, by the senior editorial staff or perhaps by the editors themselves. Die Burger says of this budget that the department has almost accomplished the impossible and that notwithstanding sharp rises in expenditure, tariffs have been left unchanged for the third consecutive year. Yesterday’s Argus said—

And today’s Cape Times says—

Higher tribute than this one cannot get. When I saw the appropriation Bill before me, a Bill in which money is requested for the new financial year, I asked myself what this brilliant achievement could be ascribed to. Is it because we had, and still have, a Minister who has a wonderful personality and high integrity? Is it because at the head of the department we have a man like the Postmaster-General, a person who is a brilliant manager? Or has he a brilliant staff? Is it as a result of loyal, dedicated, hard-working members of staff in the most junior ranks in the Post Office, or is it owing to many other factors? My answer is that many factors have contributed.

I want to single out just one tonight, viz. the research projects of the Post Office in the fields of staff, the postal service, communications and finance. I am going to speak briefly because I have only five minutes left. I just want to refer to the research projects which are constantly being undertaken. It appears to me as if the Post Office is constantly taking a critical look at itself in these four fields. They ask questions like the following: Where are the bottlenecks? Where are the shortcomings? Where did we make mistakes? Then they come up with scientific projects and inquiries and they arrive at certain answers. Often they find in their answers self-criticism, which they then express, and they then correct the faults. I think that is one of the major reasons, among many other reasons, why we have had this wonderful achievement this year, and of course the wonderful achievements of the past three years as well.

Before I say more about this, however, I must also tell my dear good friend the hon. member for Vereeniging that in my personal capacity I am sorry to lose him because he now becomes a Minister. He and I learned to know each other well as information officers in the NP’s information office. I have respect for his talents. I think he is going to have a wonderful career in this department, and later, perhaps, in other departments as well. I just want to tell him that he had a very good teacher in the present hon. Minister. I therefore think that we can depend upon him.

Let us now look at the field of staff. I made inquiries at the department about what they do to ensure that their staff are satisfied, happy and well trained and that they are really able to do well in the interests of the department. The answer was that studies in depth aimed at promoting development and utilization of personnel and at identifying bottlenecks, were constantly being carried out I mention the following—

1. (a) The effectiveness of supervisors and management seminars.
2. (b) Reasons for turnover of staff, with specific reference to particular key groups.
3. (c) The effect of the physical and psychological working conditions on officers.
4. (d) The effect of the existential vacuum on matters such as productivity, motivation, advancement, etc., and methods of countering this syndrome.

These are answers which the Postmaster-General furnishes to the question: “How do you people manage this? Do you rely on miracles, or are you really engaged in scientific research to create a perfect or almost perfect situation in your staff service?” The answers surprised me and I thought that the House should know about them.

In the field of the postal service I put the same question. The hon. the Minister, I can almost say, boasted about how quickly postal items are delivered today. I have been informed that the Post Office is also constantly engaged in a searching study of the flow of mail, especially at the Johannesburg post office, with a view to identifying bottlenecks which cause delays in the despatch and delivery of mail. I have been informed that the Johannesburg post office handles between 50 million and 60 million items of mail every month. They think that if they can realize the ideal and perfect situation there, they can carry that over to all the other centres in South Africa.

In the third field, that of telecommunications, which is growing so fast, I put the same question to them. What was the answer to my question of how this was possible? The answer was again that constant studies are undertaken to expedite the flow of traffic and satisfactory service. The department is constantly engaged in critically looking at itself and its performance and when it discovers a bottleneck, a weak point or a fault somewhere, this is rectified immediately. I think that this is something which the business world at large and certainly all our Government departments can take note of and that they can follow this example.

There are also other fields to which I could refer, but my time has almost expired. In the financial field my question was also: “How do you accomplish this feat?” The answer was once again: “We are constantly engaged in studies in depth. We are constantly investigating whether our financial control and information systems are correct and whether we have developed them in a modern and efficient fashion.” They added—and I conclude with these words: “For the past few years already, the department has been making use of a computer on a large scale and to an increasing extent to improve financial control and to develop an effective information system which works from the top management downwards”. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in continuation of what I said earlier, on this occasion, on which we are taking leave of the old, I also take great pleasure in welcoming the hon. member for Vereeniging, Mr. F. W. de Klerk, and congratulating him on his new position. We know that there will be cordial co-operation between us, because he is a particularly energetic young man. I wish him all of the best and every success in his new position. We know that he will carry out his new duties with distinction—that is what we expect of the De Klerks: when they get stuck in, they make a success of a thing.

I have a few figures here which I should like to quote to indicate how inexpensive South Africa’s postal tariffs are in comparison with other countries. A letter of 50 g costs 4c to post in South Africa. In the USA the same letter costs 14c, in France 31c, in West Germany 39c, in the Netherlands 42c, in Austria 27c and in Norway 33c. South Africa’s postal services are really among the most inexpensive in the world, despite the fact that use is made of air mail. In the case of printed matter, an item of the same weight costs 3c in South Africa, while in the USA it costs 14c, in France 31c, in West Germany 25c. One could go on comparing tariffs in this way. When one compares what it costs to have a telephone installed, one sees that in South Africa it costs R30. As against that it costs R129 in France, R83 in West Germany and R89 in The Netherlands. One therefore sees how inexpensive it is in South Africa. Although the amount involved is refunded in Norway, the installation of a telephone there costs R333 as against our R30. The rental in South Africa is also only R3,50 per month. In other countries like West Germany the rental is R13,20 per month. Our local telephone calls cost 4c; in West Germany, it is 10c and in France, 8c. If one speaks for three minutes over a distance of 100 km, it costs us 20c here. In West Germany the same call would cost 143c; in the Netherlands, 25c; in Austria, 114c and in Norway 100c. That is merely to give the hon. members an indication of how reasonable our tariffs are.

Then I also want to associate myself with the hon. member for Vanderbijlpark, who asked whether something could not be done to improve the presentation of the telephone codes. We know what the hon. the Minister has replied to that, but when I look at the postal code list, I really find it a very fine publication. It is very attractive. I have wondered whether the telephone codes could not be included in the postal codes—of course in a separate section, because it is a separate matter—so that it is easily accessible to us.

Mr. Chairman, I want to tell you about a problem which I have with my own phone at home, and I have been saddled with this problem for a number of years now. I have a very easy number in Johannesburg, but that number is also the number of the firm Stuttafords in Cape Town. For 16 or 17 years now people think my number is the number for Stuttafords in Cape Town and those calls are then dialled through to my number in Johannesburg, especially towards the end of the month when accounts are sent out. This happens, of course, because the person on the other side does not dial the code correctly. Recently I made a mistake when a caller thought she was speaking to the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. That department’s number in Pretoria is the same as mine in Johannesburg. Now it happens that people continually dial my number to obtain information about any agricultural problem under the sun. Just the other day I again received such a call. I did not yet know then that the department’s number was the same as mine, and a woman asked me what she could use to kill a tree in front of her house. I thought that she had approached me as a former city councillor in order to ascertain what the position was as regards getting rid of a tree. I told her that she would be looking for serious trouble if she killed that tree and that under no circumstances could she apply anything to it. She just sighed and put down the telephone.

People blame the Post Office for such calls and they do not consider the possibility that they did not dial the correct code number. I have wondered whether something could not be done to popularize the code number more.

Apart from the telephone services, I want to pay the Post Office the compliment that they can handle a letter very quickly. A year or so ago a letter to Calvinia was posted in Cape Town. However, on that letter Calvinia was spelt with an “f” in the middle and not with a “v” and the people in Cape Town inadvertently sent the letter to California in the USA. In the USA they knew about a place named Calvinia and they returned the letter with the instructions “try South Africa”. That letter, which had been posted in Cape Town on 24 May, ultimately arrived at Calvinia on 31 August. You will therefore see, Mr. Chairman, that the people at the Post Office work with discretion and that even a place like Calvinia in South Africa is well-known abroad.

I am pleased that one can also look at these aspects and realize that the Post Office is rendering us an excellent service. Irrespective of whether it is the telephone service, surface mail, air mail or any other sphere, they give us an excellent service.

I agree with what the hon. the Minister has said in connection with the vandalism that is encountered. I also want to associate myself with what he said in connection with what happened in Soweto and the losses referred to in paragraph 15 of the report by the Auditor-General on the accounts of the Postal Administration.

The losses are however still low if one takes into account that the total losses indicated there amount to R2 845 000. It is, however, as well to make an analysis of these figures. Under the heading “Theft, fires and accidents”, the loss amounted to R649 100. One must carry out this analysis to be able to establish how those losses can be substantially reduced.

Once again I want to congratulate the staff and all concerned on these matters and wish them every success for the future.

I am rising to reply to those speakers who have spoken since my previous reply. The hon. Whip has informed that I have 25 minutes at the most, but I hope to finish in less time than that In the first place I should like to convey my thanks to the hon. member for Johannesburg North for having placed the history of the Postage Stamp Advisory Committee on record here in this House. In my opinion this committee is doing very useful work, and it has achieved splendid results up to now.

The hon. member for Bethlehem tendered his apology for not being in this House this evening, and consequently I am replying in his absence to the matters which he raised. The hon. member referred, inter alia, to the naming of buildings after well-known personalities in the Post Office. Personally I am a little sensitive about this matter, and I tried to set an example in my previous department with the standpoint that buildings should not be named after office-bearers who were still in service. However, I am of the opinion that this is a matter to which my successor could give consideration. In any case, I have such a long name that I do not wish to associate it with any building and in that way saddle people with it in future. The hon. member also mentioned the SOR-8 system and wanted it installed in the region he comes from. The hon. member comes from Bethlehem, where an automatic exchange already exists. The establishment by means of the SOR-8 of a very efficient and private party-line system, must be done entirely on a priority basis. We do not easily introduce the system to replace an existing one, but where an existing system has to be renewed, or a new service has to be introduced, we will of course consider such developments. However, this is another matter which the hon. member would do well to raise with my successor.

The hon. member for Oudtshoorn approached me in regard to an automatic telephone exchange for Oudtshoorn, and seemed to think that it would be safer if, at the same time, he interceded for it with my successor. I readily pass the ball on to my successor. He will simply have to see whether he cannot be of assistance to the hon. member for Oudtshoorn in this regard.

The hon. member for Bethlehem also referred to the old post office building in Harrismith. I do not have the specific information on it available now, but I shall have the representations he made investigated to establish whether there is anything which can be done in this regard.

The hon. member also referred to an alarm system, something which at first glance seems an excellent thing and very effective, but which will obviously be a very expensive undertaking. In my opinion this is another of the aspects which fall into the same category as those raised by the hon. member for Wonderboom and which he referred to as “fancy goods”. It is of course possible to install such an alarm system, but it is from its nature an expensive system and if one is in addition expanding and developing the capacity of the existing network to meet major needs, it is not easy to give priority to such a system.

†The hon. member for Berea raised the matter of stamp-vending machines. The hon. member will know that we already have stamp-vending machines at all larger post offices. The question of cost, however, is also involved in this regard and once one reaches the ceiling of what is deemed to be economic and what is not economic, they are out. The provision of these machines is in line with the recommendations of the mission that went overseas last year, and therefore I am able to say that the matter is receiving attention.

*The hon. member for Berea also put forward the idea that we should lock our call offices at night and then use a coin to open them. This is a rather tricky matter. One cannot really draw a distinction between call offices in this sense that an entrance fee is charged for the one while the other may be entered free of charge. In any case, the post offices remain open and one can go there at any time of the night to telephone.

The hon. member for Hillbrow raised quite a number of matters, some of which did not fall under the Post Office at all. For example he referred to the rediffusion system. Rediffusion is of course a matter which falls under the Minister of National Education. The question of licence fees for television sets is also a matter pertaining to the SABC, which is the responsibility of the Minister of National Education.

Do you agree?

It so happens that when the legislation in this regard was being drawn up I was involved in it since I was still the Minister of National Education at the time. That was what the SABC decided at that stage, and it is still their standpoint.

The hon. member was concerned about “the tapping of lines of MPs”. I want to give the hon. member the same assurance I gave the hon. member for Pinelands. The Post Office is not interested in hearing what other people have to say to one another, not even what MPs have to say over the telephone. The Post Office does not listen in to telephone conversations. Just as in the case of postal matter, the Act also provides that the Post Office may monitor telephone conversations. I see the hon. member for Wynberg is smiling. For him this is of course a matter on which he can fabricate long stories. He probably thinks South Africa is the only country in the world in which this is done. [Interjections.]

If one has nothing on one’s conscience, one need not be afraid. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Hillbrow asked what steps we were taking to collect bad debts. Obviously the Post Office does everything in its power to collect bad debts, and a report on this matter appears in the statements of the Post Office which are subject to the audit of the Auditor-General. It goes without saying that we have the co-operation of the other Government departments in this connection, but in spite of this there are always loopholes. One cannot always bring rogues to book. This is unfortunately the way things are in life.

The hon. member also advocated better publicity for defence bonus bonds. The Treasury, which deals with this matter, has its own publicity consultants and therefore this is not a matter for which the Post Office is responsible. The Post Office sells the bonds for the Treasury on an agency basis.

As far as the microwave tower in Cape Town is concerned, the Regional Director in Cape Town has already issued a statement. That microwave tower will no longer be built.

The hon. member for Worcester made an interesting analysis of the question: To what does the Post Office attribute its success? I think all these points have been replied to in the course of the debate. There were various reasons for the success of the Post Office. However, the hon. member referred more specifically to the fact that the department is constantly subjecting its activities to a critical scrutiny. I want to endorse that.

†I think it was the hon. member for Umhlanga who in the Second Reading debate referred to the fact that there is always room for criticism and always room for improvement. That is also the attitude which the Post Office adopts towards its affairs. There is, in fact, always room for improvement and we continuously aim at achieving more than we have achieved up to now.

*The hon. member is therefore entirely correct that this is one of the important reasons for success, because it means that the Post Office examines all aspects of its activities, tries to adapt, to modernize, creates better services, motivates its people and offers them conditions of service which make it pleasant for them to co-operate. I think that all these things have contributed to the success achieved by the Post Office.

In his Second Reading speech the hon. member for Umhlanga raised one matter to which I have not reacted and to which I should now like to reply. He asked whether we were not going to increase the tariffs shortly after the introduction of this favourable budget. I want to repeat what I said last year when a similar question was put to me in the Other Place. On the basis of the data at our disposal, and the motivation to which I referred during my Second Reading speech, it was decided quite correctly that we should not raise the tariffs at this stage. However, there are certain factors which may in the course of time—in the course of time because no one knows when those circumstances will arise—compel one to raise the tariffs. If the cost of equipment rises to a greater extent than we have made provision for—in our calculation we have made provision for a cost increase of 10%—there is obviously another situation which we have to take into account. I also said that if the revenue was less than we budgeted for, one must determine anew how one is going to balance one’s accounts. This may give one an entirely different approach to the matter. If large-scale salary increases are granted in future, this would in turn affect one’s estimates. However, I want to give the assurance that this is not a favourable budget simply because I am taking leave of hon. members now. It is a motivated budget based on the facts at our disposal. The Postmaster-General will be able to confirm that I was very critical of it, for when I saw the proportion of 59,9% on the one hand as against the 40,19% on the other, I had my misgivings and asked whether it was not time for us to consider increases. Therefore we are not attempting to mislead this House. I furnished the facts with a clear conscience, and I can motivate everything that is contained in the budget and that was said here.

I think that I have now replied to all the questions that were put to me.

Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask the hon. the Minister to clarify a situation. He referred to the question of the allocation of a waveband for the use of the reservists in Sea Point and said that he had written a letter to me. He read from the letter and said that it was unnecessary for me to raise it in Parliament. I have received a letter from the hon. the Minister in which he says that a further communication will be addressed to me in due course. I do not have any knowledge of the second letter he has written. May I know to whom the letter has been addressed and on what date?

Mr. Chairman, in that case I must apologize to the hon. Leader of the Opposition. I accepted that the letter had reached him. The copy of the letter I have here is not dated, but I think I signed the letter last Friday.

You must check with the Post Office how long it takes to deliver a letter.

If it has not reached the hon. the Leader of the Opposition I must apologize to him. However, it sets out the necessary steps to take this matter further.

Mr. Chairman, will the hon. the Minister accept the fact that this letter has not been received by me and that in the circumstances I was correct in raising this matter?

I accept it, apart from the fact that in this Chamber one has to accept an explanation by an hon. member.

[Inaudible.]

Mr. Speaker, I move, subject to Standing Order No. 56—

Mr. Speaker, I commence my remarks by returning to the achievement bonus of R7,5 million which has been discussed in this debate, and to which reference has been made in the budget speech itself. It must be clear to the hon. the Minister that there was fat in the budget before, because he could not have obtained a bonanza of R7,5 million to give as an achievement bonus to the staff if his budget did not permit it. One must look at this from the point of view of the ratio of 59,9% to 40,1%. If one does that, one comes to the conclusion that this amount was obtained by stretching the ratio to the figure of percentage which I have just mentioned. Now that this little bit of fat has been taken off, I believe that the body has been left with a considerable amount of muscle and that muscle will make more fat, because I do not believe that this hon. Minister or the Department will put the Post Office on a diet. As far as the R7,5 million is concerned, we welcome the statement by the hon. the Minister that this amount will be spread amongst all races. Forgive me if I say that it is with a great measure of surprise that I listened to the hon. the Minister say only now, after having been prodded to do so, how he is going to use the R7,5 million, when I have been under the impression and have been left with the impression that we have an efficient administration, run on good business lines and principles, who have forward planning and who know exactly what they are doing and how they are estimating. We now find that after they have taken an amount of R7,5 million, only now, today, they are trying to discover how they are going to spend and allocate this amount and spread it amongst the staff. One does not wish to look a gift horse in the mouth; obviously not, but one would have thought that this would have been preplanned. If it had been preplanned I think it would have been worked out. Therefore one is left to come to the conclusion that this has possibly been done as a sort of last-minute gesture. Having done this, it will now be worked out how this amount will be distributed amongst the staff.

In raising the matter earlier in the debate, I did ask the hon. the Minister whether this had been approved and whether it fits in with the Public Service Commission. The hon. the Minister has remained silent on this point. I did not hear any reply to it. Furthermore, if this is going to be a feature of the Post Office budget in the future I believe that members of the staff are entitled to know whether this was just a “oncer” or whether this can now be anticipated each year by the staff. I think these are questions that require answers.

My last point on the question of finance is again with reference to the R72,9 million which has been allocated here as an operating surplus. I asked whether there was a further amount, whether this was the net amount, and what would be left over, because I have intimated that I have a feeling that this is a nest egg. My last point—if I may just return to the R7,5 million and relate it to the ratio proposed by the Franzsen Commission—is that if the R7,5 million had not been allocated to the staff, there would have been R38,1 million to allocate to operating surplus rather than the amount of R30,652 million which is now allocated.

I think the budget must be viewed in that light. Another point that has been made, and to which the hon. the Minister has also referred, is the fact that our tariffs are among the lowest in the world. With respect, however, I think we must look at that in conjunction with other factors that affect the situation, namely that we do have 2,39 million telephones in the country, a number which we have to share among a population now estimated at 25 million. That leaves us with a ratio of 10 telephones for every 100 persons. The United States have a population of 168 million, and there they have 68 telephones for every 100 persons. When one deals with the numbers of calls made in the United States it runs into billions. The figure for the United States is 200 billion, which is far in excess of the one next in line, which is Japan with a total of 45 billion. Sweden has 64 phones for every 100 people. Switzerland has 59 telephones for every 100 people, Canada 55 and New Zealand 51 for every 100 people. I could find only one country with less per 100 than South Africa. That is, strangely enough, the Soviet Union with a total of six telephones for every 100 people. Perhaps with such a vast area as, for example, Siberia, I believe, we can only take cold comfort from merely thinking of it. Nevertheless, I think that if we do push up our ratio, we will have to push it up considerably more in order to get within the ratio of the Western countries to which I have referred.

If I may, I now want to make reference to the progress of the Postal Administration. I am a newcomer to this House. However, having watched with considerable interest the progress made by the Postal Administration— and I believe anyone else in commerce or business would have done the same—I get the impression that the Postal Administration has been a whipping-boy for some time, and has been fair game across the floor of this House throughout many debates and many discussions. I get the impression that the Postal Administration has laid itself open to many attacks that have been launched against it. I think it is significant that there was such an enormous backlog in the supply of telephone services and that there was no television. Since the introduction of television and the increase in the supply of telephone services there have been many changes. Perhaps one can ascribe the changes for the better to the appointment of Mr. Louis Rive as Postmaster-General. He brought with him a new dimension into the Postal Administration. Since his arrival on the scene things have changed. We still have a considerable backlog in the supply of telephones, but fortunately it no longer exceeds the 100 000 mark. We now also have television and we have a Postal Administration which is run far more efficiently than before, and which is probably run more efficiently than any other public service department. The Postal Administration also maintains Press relations. There is a Press officer who, I believe, has done much to improve the image of the Postal Administration in the eyes of the public. I believe this can be said to the credit of the Postal Administration.

In the short time still left to me, I want to turn, if I may, to the hon. the Minister. I want to tell him that I believe that what we on this side of the House have tried to do, is to offer constructive suggestions to him and to his Administration. We have tried to assist them in a matter which is of vital importance to this country and to its private and business communities. The Postal Administration is a service which is so essential and vital that failure and inefficiency on its part could so often result in a matter of life or death. In this sense, I believe, there have been very constructive and useful suggestions made by hon. members on this side of the House. I hope that the Postal Administration and the hon. the Minister, as well as his successor, will benefit by those suggestions in future.

Mr. Speaker, I should like to address a few words to the hon. the Minister personally. Now that, in a manner of speaking, the rounds of the boxing match are over, it is time to shake hands. In shaking hands with the hon. the Minister, I would like, on behalf of the Opposition and on my own behalf, as person to person, to congratulate the hon. the Minister and pay tribute to him for his service inside South Africa and outside South Africa in the years that he has served his country. He has served his country well and with dedication.

On a personal note, I should like to say that I have known the hon. the Minister much longer than I have known other hon. members of this House. For me this debate has been a new experience, whereas the hon. the Minister is a man of much experience in these matters. Nevertheless, the hon. the Minister and I share a love of Cape Town where we have spent some time. Our hearts are, however, in the city of Johannesburg, where we belong, where we have lived, and where we have given the most service. I believe that we have a very warm affinity for Johannesburg. The hon. the Minister will recall many pleasant moments such as the opening of Melville Koppies, where, with the opening of the museum on man and science, we presented a new image in the field of scientific exhibitions. On more pleasant and formal occasions the hon. the Minister has, in his official capacity, graced the city of Johannesburg. Together, I think, we have tried to further the civic aspects of Johannesburg over the years. On behalf of this side of the House I should like to wish the hon. the Minister and his family a very happy retirement. We hope that he will now bear the fruit of all the hard years he has put into his work. He is in the fortunate position that he is able to hand over to his successor a department which has been in good hands. It should therefore not be a matter of great difficulty for the hon. member for Vereeniging, who is to take over the hon. the Minister’s post, to take over this department. All that is left for me to say, having congratulated the outgoing Minister, is to offer to the new Minister our constructive help and co-operation. We have one pleasant wish to convey to the new Minister, and that is that we wish him a hat trick. We hope that he too in the next three budgets will not find it necessary to increase the tariffs.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Hillbrow concluded by saying that he wanted to shake hands with the hon. the Minister because the fight is over now. He may shake hands now, Sir, but I am afraid that we have not yet finished with one another. There are still a few rounds left, and I think a few hard punches are still waiting for him. I shall return to this in the course of my speech.

Sir, we played a golf match at Stellenbosch last year. The Postmaster-General was there too. In that match he succeeded in obtaining what we call a “volmaakte gelukskoot”. He hit a hole in one. After the match there was a notice on the blackboard “volmaakte gelukskoot—Louis Rive”. Then someone rubbed out the word “geluk”, and it then stood as “volmaakte skoot—Louis Rive”. Then the hon. the Prime Minister got to his feet and rubbed out the word “skoot”. Then it stood as “volmaakte Louis Rive”. If we were to describe the budget in golfing terms, we would be able to describe it as a hole in one, a feat envied by many people who play golf. It is something which is envied even by those who watch it. There is appreciation for it. This has been the case with this budget too. It is a budget for which there has been a great deal of appreciation. There are people who are jealous of it. The Opposition has tried to find fault with it, but that jealousy is based on the fact that they had no share in it. It is now more than 30 years ago that they last had the opportunity of presenting a budget like this. But Sir, it is not only a fine budget. It is also one which provides for good services to be rendered. The Post Office is an organization which sells its services, and it is obvious that the better the services are, the more the public will buy them and use them, provided that the price of those services is right. In spite of the rate of inflation in South Africa, and the economic recession, the Post Office has proved that those services are in fact among the best. When we see in the report that 129 000 telephones were installed in South Africa in the past year, we become aware of the fact that the best advertisement for the Post Office is its efficiency, not to speak of its good services and its low tariffs in comparison with other countries.

The hon. member for Hillbrow tried in his way to make little sums in order to allege that the hon. the Minister was wrong when he said that our services were amongst the cheapest in the world. The hon. the Minister has already said that our postal rates are among the lowest in the world, while there are a few countries that have lower telephone rates. Perhaps I may just point out to the hon. member for Hillbrow, as the hon. the Minister also said, that the postage for a 50 g letter in South Africa is only four cents. The next cheapest country is Spain, where it costs 7,7 cents. Let us take a look at the rates in other Western countries. In the United Kingdom it is 15 cents, in the USA 14 cents, in West Germany 39 cents and in Sweden 46 cents. This is for letters of the same weight. The situation for parcel post is very similar. The postal rate for a 1 kg parcel is 30 cents in South Africa. There is one country which is cheaper and that is Spain, where it costs 28 cents. However, what is the position in other Western countries? In the United Kingdom it costs 112c, in the USA 75c and in Australia 200c. Let us now take a look at the installation costs for telephones. In South Africa it costs R30 to install a telephone. In the USA it is somewhat cheaper. It costs R25 there. But then we come to other Western countries. In the United Kingdom it costs R75, in Japan R289, not to mention the price in Argentina. There it costs R700 to install a telephone. The position with the monthly rental is very much the same. In South Africa it is R3,50. This is the lowest in the world, with the exception of Sweden, where it costs R2,50. In the USA, however, it costs R9,30 and in West Germany R13,20. It may however be argued, as the hon. member for Hillbrow tried to argue, that the wages in many of those countries are much higher than they are here and that we can therefore not use this as a criterion. I hope that hon. member is going to listen carefully now, and I hope he can follow what I say. I want to refer to a very good criterion. Let us take the global monthly cost of the postal and telephone services used by a single person in any country in the world. We assume he uses the following services in one month. He posts 50 ordinary letters, he posts one 1 kg parcel, he makes 400 local calls and he makes 10 calls over a distance of 100 km. Let us also assume that one’s telephone is installed every three years on an average. The total cost of the postal and telephone services for a private person will then compare as follows with the hours which a factory worker must work. For all those services, a worker in South Africa will have to work 7⅓ hours per month. In Switzerland he will have to work 8¼ hours. Let us look at other Western countries. In the United Kingdom he will have to work 18⅓ hours, in West Germany 19 hours and in France 30 hours. Is that hon. member now convinced that it is cheapest in South Africa?

No, not at all.

Then I do not know who or what will convince them. In my opinion this is indeed an achievement! It is an achievement of which we may not only be proud, but for which we may also be grateful. If we take these factors into consideration, I think it is a fine testimonial for the hon. the Minister on his retirement. Despite these fine achievements, despite the improvement in the position of telephone services, despite what is being envisaged for the Whites as well as the non-Whites, the hon. member for Hillbrow moved an amendment. Immediately after the hon. the Minister had made his budget speech, the hon. member for Hillbrow said the following, inter alia—

This is a panegyric. However, then the hon. member moved his amendment. In actual fact, the first two legs of that amendment are a contradiction of what he said the previous night. However, I can very easily imagine what happened in the inner circles of the Progs that night.

The Leader of the PFP was in Botswana where he made statements about Rhodesia, and then the Whip had to crack and the hon. Chief Whip hauled the hon. member for Hillbrow over the coals and told him: “Look here this is not the way we approach the matter in Parliament. We must drag in politics; we must come up with the old hackneyed story of discrimination towards the non-Whites;” and this in spite of the fact that it has repeatedly been said by the hon. the Minister, amongst others, that it is the policy of the Government to narrow that wage gap gradually and that a great deal has already been done in that respect.

It surprises me that the hon. member for Hillbrow should have been the one who moved such an amendment. The hon. the Minister has already pointed out that he was a member of the Johannesburg city council and of the executive committee there and that he did nothing in his capacity as a member of the executive committee to eliminate discrimination in respect of employees of the city council and to do away with the wage gap in the city council. [Interjections.] I have here a report which appeared in Die Vaderland of 2 February 1978. It deals with a city council meeting. Reference is made to what Mr. Oberholzer said. He remained Mr. Gadd, who is also a Prog and therefore the hon. member’s spiritual associate, of the fact that the executive committee had allocated R300 000 in 1972 so that roads could be built in the Yeoville constituency where Mr. Gadd was a candidate for the UP in the municipal election of that year …

This has nothing to do with me.

Mr. Oberholzer was still a member of the UP in 1972. They were still together then.

I was not a member of the executive committee at that time.

Wait a moment. [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member must not be so sensitive. I have not even finished reading yet.

Your facts are all wrong.

But he must first hear me out. [Interjections.]

Order! It is not yet clear to me either that this is a Post Office matter.

Mr. Speaker, it concerns the discrimination of which is accusing us. I continue. At that time Mr. Oberholzer said that although roads were required in Mr. Gadd’s constituency, there were more important priorities. However, the money was voted for Mr. Gadd’s constituency in order to ensure that he would win the election.

Order! That is not relevant here.

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the hon. member a question?

No, Mr. Speaker, my time is limited. The hon. member wants to continue his own speech now. As I said, it surprises me that that very hon. member should be the one to accuse the hon. the Minister of discrimination in the Department of Posts and Telecommunications.

My hands are clean.

It surprises me, Mr. Speaker, that it should be that hon. member who made those accusations, while he himself was guilty of the greatest discrimination. It is that hon. member who put party interests above the interests of the taxpayers of Johannesburg. We have actually heard how he abused his powers to favour Mr. Gadd so that he could win the election.

You are making a big mistake.

He took no notice of the priorities which had been laid down, but he acted from the position of authority which he held. I think, Mr. Speaker, that if one wants to make accusations, one must first sweep in front of one’s own door. The hon. member must bear in mind, when he makes accusations here, that we have full particulars of his comings and goings, and these are not good.

Your particulars are wrong. You are making a big mistake.

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what clause we have just been dealing with in the Third Reading. However, it would appear that the hon. member for Boksburg has had his bit of fun with the hon. member for Hillbrow. I am reminded, incidentally Mr. Speaker, of when I was a small boy and I put some glass under the tires of the headmasters car. When the headmaster came into the class I jumped up in the back row before he had accused anybody and I said: “Dit is nie ek nie! Dit is nie ek nie!” The hon. member for Hillbrow reminded me of that incident by the way he was protesting that his hands were clean and that he did into do either this or that. [Interjections.] However, that is his argument. [Interjections.]

I wish to assure the hon. the Minister that I never for one moment thought that he was introducing a budget to mislead the public. I do not suggest for one moment that he implied this, but I think he was under the impression that I thought this was the case. I expressed the hope in the Second Reading that his successor would not have to raise tariffs during the year and he has reassured me by his comments in this regard during the Committee Stage.

He had major reservations.

I am none the less reassured, my friend. I am none the less reassured.

Really?

I do not have your nasty suspicious little mind.

You do not have any brains either.

Thank you! We are still perturbed about the fact that we have not had a clear answer from the hon. the Minister in regard to my request for a team of “trouble-shooters” to work in conjunction with Defence Force personnel who are to investigate the speedy delivery of mail and the collection of mail for the boys on the border and in the operational area. The hon. the Minister did say that there were certain items that he had not answered during the Second Reading and that he would answer at a later stage. I would ask him to give us the benefit of his comments in his reply to the Third Reading debate. While we are talking about the lads on the border, I may add that we are all aware that the national servicemen in the operational area enjoy the facility of free postage. However, we believe that this is something that should be extended to all national servicemen wherever they may be in South Africa. We believe that national servicemen should be entitled to mail their letters without having to buy a stamp. These lads earn R1,04 per day, from which certain deductions are made. They have to buy all their toiletries. They buy every bit of their boot polish, their soap, their shaving-kit, etc., and by the time all this has been accounted for, I doubt very much whether they are left with more than R20 per month. Surely the taxpayers and the Post Office can afford the luxury, if one may call it that, of granting these boys free postage. They deserve it. They are good enough to die for this country. Surely they are entitled to, and, in fact, deserve to have their mail posted from wherever they are serving, be it Voortrekkerhoogte, or be it on the borders of South West Africa, free, gratis and for nothing.

During the Second Reading debate the hon. the Minister raised a matter of concern to the administration regarding the future ability of funds invested in the Post Office savings services to provide adequately for telecommunication expansion. I join the hon. the Minister in this concern. The matter has not been touched upon during this debate and I feel that it is something we should talk about. I believe this is mainly attributable to the fact that more and more people are taking advantage—I think the hon. the Minister has expressed this opinion—of the more attractive investments offered by Treasury bonds and, of course, defence bonus bonds, or as we in these benches like to call it correctly, the State lottery. Surely this calls for urgent action, and I would like to suggest that the Post Office could do well to have a re-think in respect of percentage rates offered and could also embark on a marketing campaign backed up by good advertising. I think it is vitally important that the level of the Savings Bank funds should be maintained. In order to do so new business must be encouraged. More important still, existing business must be retained. This is undoubtedly more important. Instead of the Post Office paying out the Union Loan Certificates, as it used to be known in the old days, and seeing that money disappear, there should be sufficient encouragement for the recipient to reinvest that money in the Post Office rather than to invest it in some more advantageous source.

Another point that disturbs me, is the R7½ million that has been allocated for the extension of the television network. I can hardly expect the hon. the Minister to give us details of how this amount is to be expended. I would ask him, however, to furnish the House with a broad outline of how the money will be spent. I believe that there are approximately 77 repeater stations in operation at present, plus, of course, those that have been set up by enterprising individuals and, in some instances, by local authorities. Recent Press reports made reference to the fact that the latter group—that is to say the ones set up by individuals and local authorities—must now conform to certain standards or be dismantled. I sincerely hope that the operators will be given sufficient notice when their equipment is found to be lacking in standard and that it will not be a case of: “This is not up to standard. Dismantle it now.” These people should be given adequate time to rectify the situation.

Turning to the annual report of the Postmaster-General for the year 1976-’77, I once again want to say that the report makes excellent reading because there are improvements all round. Generally it refers to increases that are beneficial to the country as a whole. There is one increase, however, that disturbs me and it is an increase that is consistent. It has continued since 1973. I am referring now to the increase in the number of party lines that we have in this country. In 1973 we had 15 700 of these lines and the number escalated to 15 872, then to 16 257, then to 16 771, and in 1977, the last year reported, there were some 17 036 party lines in South Africa. This is not the type of service we want to see enlarged or expanded.

Have you heard about the SOR-8?

I have heard about it, but none the less we still have the party lines. I know the hon. the Minister will accept that this is an old hobby-horse of mine, but I must once again appeal to him and to the Administration to do all they can to eliminate what I term the scourge of nearly every farmer. Sir, find me a farmer in South Africa who will not tell you that he must have a phone and then find me one who will tell you that he does not hate the thought of being on a party line. I am sorry that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is not here because I should like to know if they have party lines in Delmas. If I knew that they had party lines in Delmas, I think I would have a case here tonight, because I think I would have support from the ministerial benches second to none. I am sure that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture would bend over backwards to champion my cause as the cause of all the farmers in South Africa.

To conclude on a happier note I would like to mention a few items which I omitted in my Second Reading speech yesterday. I would like to say that we look forward with interest to the report of the department’s study in respect of the feasibility of appointing postal agents, because we believe that this could help to solve a number of problems, particularly in the smaller areas. I sincerely hope and trust that these results will be tabled expeditiously in order that we can appraise and analyse the situation. We also believe that the new headquarters building in Pretoria is long overdue and we are not prepared to join in the criticism of this building. It has been up to now a pitiful state of affairs where the Post Office Administration has been housed in some 10, 12 or 14 different buildings throughout Pretoria. The congregation of head office staff under one roof can only augur well for even better motivation of staff than is presently effected by the Postmaster-General and his senior personnel.

Lastly, I want to deal with SAPONET. We believe this is an exciting project and it is our sincere hope that it will soon become profitable to the Post Office as well as popular with data users throughout the country. However, here again we want to suggest that the Post Office would do well to advertise this project throughout the chambers of industry and commerce in South Africa in order that data users will know that it is there for them to use and that they can avail themselves of it.

Yesterday I said a few words to the hon. the Minister on this, his last budget. I do not intend to repeat them, but it merely remains to say to him that we thank him once again for all that he has done for us in the House and for the country as Minister of Posts and Telecommunications.

Mr. Speaker, I shall leave it to the hon. the Minister to deal with the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. At this stage I just want to say that the hon. member’s criticism is so typical of the criticism we have had in this budget debate. On the one hand, hon. members are advocating a free service, but the next moment they are concerned about tariffs which may possibly be increased.

If one examines the criticism that has been directed at the budget over the past few days, it is clear that it has been extremely weak. If I think back to a few years ago, I remember how the Opposition used to descend like birds of prey on the Post Office budgets of the time. I just want to remind hon. members of the fact that in those days they were still seriously advocating the idea that the Government should leave telecommunication services to the private sector; that they should be handed over to private contractors. They have been really tame over the past few days because they had nothing to criticize. However, I want to object seriously to a certain statement which was made by the hon. member for Pinelands today. I see he is not here at the moment. I think it is a sad day when someone like the hon. member for Pinelands acts as the champion in this House for a man like Donald Woods. I think it is disgraceful. The hon. member dragged the name of a man who had betrayed his country across the floor of this House, a man who had fled from the country, and the hon. member did this in a way tantamount to criticizing the Government for those things. [Interjections.] I think it was disgraceful conduct on the part of that hon. member. I do not want to elaborate on this further any further. [Interjections.]

The Post Office budget is not only exciting, but is indeed evidence of an achievement. Seen in the light of the present economic, political climate, the Post Office, with this budget, is doing South Africa and its people a great service. A remarkable example of responsible action is revealed in this budget. Even in the increased tariffs announced in the Railway budget, are being absorbed by this Post Office budget. For the third consecutive year, a budget has been presented to this House reflecting growth and development without any increase in tariffs. The Opposition can criticize very little about a budget like this. As a matter of fact, they all had to rewrite their speeches. The whole budget is a success story, a story of achievements, dedication, planning, economies, streamlining, training programmes and of averting tariff increases in spite of inflation. All this has been made possible by a dedicated, loyal and enthusiastic staff. This productivity and purposefulness are best illustrated by the following facts contained in the annual report. The establishment increased by 1,76%. As against that the number of call units increased by 11,35%, the number of telephones by 5,72% and the total turnover by 20%. Add to this the number of attempts to effect economics, the improved training methods, the management ability and the courage to make rectifications and behold! This is the image of what the Post Office is like today.

To continue I should like to associate myself with what has already been said about the hon. the Minister who is now on the eve of his retirement. This budget is another pat on the back for him. It is not often that a politician can end his career on such a high note. To notch up this remarkable achievement, he has had the support of a loyal management and staff. Consequently he is ending his career on a very high note. For that reason his successor, the hon. member for Vereeniging, will take his seat behind a clean desk. We on this side of the House want to congratulate him once again on his appointment, knowing that in the future he, too, will continue to notch up the characteristic achievements which are peculiar to the NP.

The past election once again illustrated to us the value and meaning of our postal service and of our department of posts and telecommunications. If there was a single occasion on which we realized the value of the Post Office, it was during the past general election. The delivery of thousands of articles of mail to our voters and the thousands of telephone calls which were made, even to remote places, contributed to a large extent to a large number of hon. members on this side of the House being returned so as to strengthen our numbers here.

The best postal service in the world, however, would not have been able to succeed in saving the dwindling Opposition from their dilemma. We should like to thank them for the work which was done during the past election. I know that I am speaking on behalf of all of us when I say this.

In this regard I should also like to avail myself of this opportunity to express my gratitude for the excellent service which we enjoy here in Parliament. We have a great deal of respect for the thoroughness and friendliness of our postmaster and of the ladies and gentlemen who work here on the exchange. I want to say a special word of thanks to them for that.

As far as telecommunication services are concerned, I want to exchange just a few ideas in the short time I have at my disposal. The greatest progress and development over the past year has probably occurred in the field of telephone and telex services. As far as the future is concerned, too, it will be this very field of telecommunications in which the greatest development will still occur. Telecommunications which used to be the Post Office’s big headache until recently, have developed into its chief source of revenue. Telecommunication services may rightly be called the life-blood of the Post Office. In 1970 the revenue of the Post Office was R226 million. It increased to R629 million in 1977. Most of this comes from the telephone and telex services, viz. approximately R513,8 million. This was a remarkable achievement. The improved internal and external telecommunication services have increased the revenue because—and this is the aspect I want to emphasize—a telephone call has rendered an expensive business trip unnecessary. This improved service has resulted in internal calls having more than doubled, whereas overseas calls have increased sixteen-fold. A reliable telecommunication system is of inestimable value to our country. No business can be run successfully if it does not have a reliable telephone and telex service at its disposal. No industrialist can operate successfully in a competitive world if it does not have efficient telecommunication services at its disposal. The telephone services have improved considerably due to the easing of traffic bottlenecks and the drop in the fault incidence. All these things have caused the revenue of the telecommunication services to increase at a more rapid rate than that at which the telecommunication service has been extended. I do not want to burden hon. members with more figures to prove this. The final aspect I want to mention in this regard, is that each hon. member in this House who represents a constituency on the Rand as I do, is probably as delighted as I am at the success which has been achieved with Operation Commando. This well-planned, purposeful attempt at combating the chronic problem conditions in the field of telephone services on the Witwatersrand, is welcomed by us.

I also want to add our gratitude to that of the hon. the Minister for the voluntary service rendered by this labour force to help us to solve our problems. The expectation of reducing the waiting list on the Witwatersrand from 35 000 to 13 000, is good news. It is a major achievement indeed. I want to thank them very much for this dedication, co-operation and for the service they provide.

In my constituency we have the most beautiful post office in the whole country. We are very grateful for this. Hon. members are welcome to come and take a look at it. However, this part of the country is also the one which has been experiencing the biggest telephone explosion. I should like to emphasize once again that there is still a backlog to be made up in this field. We trust that this matter will be given due attention.

Mr. Speaker, all of us who are sitting here tonight know that politics leave little room for sentiment. Hard knocks are the order of the day in this House, as well as criticism and argument against argument. There is little time for a warm handshake, and a pat on the shoulder is something rare here. This statement has in fact been proven by the debate on the Post Office budget until now. A Post Office budget which was greeted with universal admiration was received by the Opposition with a “yes but” attitude. We shall talk about that again in the future. In the same way we shall talk again about all the bills which have been passed and about the follow-up work which will result from this debate.

What is important tonight is that we shall use one of those rare moments to give someone a warm handshake, to pay the hon. the Minister the tribute that he deserves at the conclusion of his last debate on the Post Office. Many earlier speakers have done this already, some on account of their special responsibility and others on account of their special relationship with the hon. the Minister. From the North-eastern Free State to Johannesburg, and from Oudtshoorn to Delmas the hon. the Minister has been praised tonight In my capacity as his appointed successor I want to associate myself with this.

On the one hand we are saying good-bye to the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. In that capacity he leaves the service with an admirable list of achievements. His term of service was marked by growth, growth in almost every area of the functions of the Post Office. I should like to quote a few statistics in order to show how great the growth has been over a period of merely three years. The number of telephones has increased by more than 300 000. That is 15%. The capacity of the trunk line network has increased by 18%, the capacity of telephone exchanges by 27%, telephone traffic by 43%, cash turnover by 47%, revenue by 24%, expenditure by 32% and Savings service investments by 90%. This is what the growth has been.

In addition to the fact that the hon. the Minister’s terms of service was marked by growth, it was also marked by efficiency. Only efficiency can explain the fact that in a time of increasing inflation and without sacrificing growth, the hon. the Minister has introduced no tariff increases in three successive years. Last but not least, the period of service of the hon. the Minister has been marked by innovation, innovation in the technical field—of which we have heard much during this debate—innovation also as a result of the unique achievement bonus of R7,5 million. That is an action that will ensure that the hon. the Minister will have a special place in the hearts of the Post Office staff.

However, we are not only taking leave of a Minister of Posts and Telecommunications tonight. We are also taking leave of a human being, of Johan van der Spuy as a person. Together with him we are taking leave of his wife, Mrs. Talia van der Spuy. They are both cultured people who unselfishly made a valuable contribution, in the difficult years of growth, to the cultural struggle of the Afrikaner of those times, in Johannesburg and on the Witwatersrand. We are taking leave of friendly, warm, humane people, who won many friends for South Africa as ambassador and ambassadress, people from whose friendship South Africa benefits to this day. We are taking leave of a Minister and his wife who have performed their task admirably. In “As You Like It” Shakespeare said the following about retirement—

We want to express the wish that the hon. the Minister and his wife will now have the opportunity to experience good in everything, away from the harsh and cruel limelight of public life. We say good-bye to them with a warm handshake, and tell them that their contribution in this department and in all the other fields in which they have served in their long public life has been worthwhile and will be remembered.

Do not be guilty of making it a case of: “Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting, the appetite may sicken, and so die!”

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member who has just spoken has a serious problem, and that is that his appetite will send him to the grave yet! [Interjections.]

In conclusion I want to thank all hon. members who had a friendly word for me, who has to take over one of these days. With their support I hope that all of us will continue, in the interest of South Africa, with the good work which has been done by the hon. the Minister who is retiring now.

Mr. Speaker, first of all I wish to refer to the apology I made to the hon. member for Sea Point. I have just had a note from my private secretary to inform me that my letter was in fact not sent off to him. It is quite obvious, therefore, that it could not have reached him. I have apologized to him, but at the same time I publicly want to put the facts straight.

*The hon. member for Hillbrow raised a few points to which I still wish to react. I must apologize to him and also to the hon. member for Umhlanga for not having replied to certain points which they raised. In the first place he referred to certain financial matters. I do not think he is reading this budget sheet correctly. He spoke of an operating surplus of R72,9 million. If he were to look at the budget sheet, he would see that the operating surplus is in fact R30,652 million. The amount of R72,956 million is cash on demand. In other words, it is money invested on short term, and which can be called up at any time.

I did not say that.

I have already said before now that we should not quarrel about this. The hon. member will serve on the Select Committee, and there he will be able to ask his questions and receive greater clarity on certain of these aspects. He also asked—I omitted to reply to this earlier—whether this achievement bonus does not create problems for the Public Service Commission. I just want to tell him that this amount of R7,5 million which has been appropriated, was appropriated with the full consent of the Cabinet. So the Public Service Commission knew about this. There was no objection. I do not know how the Public Service Commission will react to it, but in any case it is not my responsibility. The hon. member found it strange that I was at this stage still unable to give an indication of how this bonus would be calculated, how it would be allotted and who would receive it. He asked: “Is it not lack of forward planning?” Sir, if one wants to give someone a surprise in life, one does not loudly proclaim in advance what one wants to do and how one is going to do it. With such a matter it was of course not desirable to set the customary procedure in motion, consult the staff administration board and make all these matters known in advance. That is why we do not have the particulars here. I think, however, that the indications which I have given ought to satisfy the hon. member that we are on the right road.

The hon. member suggested further that there should be only one postal tariff for first- and second-class post. I think the hon. member for Sunnyside also referred to that. It is a very interesting suggestion and it has great possibilities. If we were to decide to do this, we would eliminate many practical problems, and I think the Post Office administration will most certainly have to give consideration to this in future.

The argument between the hon. member for Hillbrow and the hon. member for Boksburg revolved around tariff structures. I did not discuss that matter because various speakers on my side referred to it in their speeches. However, I stand by the assertion I made in this connection, and I have very reliable data to support what I said. The hon. member for Boksburg was quite right when he said that we could be proud that our tariffs were able to compare so favourably with the rest of the world.

The hon. member for Umhlanga referred to postal deliveries to national servicemen. This is a matter which caused great concern, not only among parents and the national servicemen concerned, but also among us. Of course there is the closest co-operation between the Post Office and the Department of Defence in this regard. Indeed, the Postmaster-General visited the operational area himself to acquire first hand knowledge of the problems which exist there. The post arrives there in time, but if those young men spend two or three weeks in the bush, it is extremely difficult to deliver that post. Post Office officials who are also doing service there, are for the most part in control of the postal services, even in the operational area. In other words, there are expert people there, and the hon. member may therefore rest assured that we are doing everything possible to expedite the delivery of post.

What about their free post?

Yes, I am coming to that. The question of free postal service for national servicemen was also raised in this debate last year. Up to now, however, the Post Office has not seen its way clear to doing this. I think it is a matter which the hon. members should take further with my successor. In fact, I have already passed the ball to him quite a few times.

It would cost nothing.

The hon. member for Umhlanga …

Penny-snatching from kids!

… also thought that investing in the Savings Bank service of the Post Office should be made more attractive. In this way it would be possible to keep the money and re-invest it in the Post Office when the investment period expires. This is a matter which is arranged between the Post Office and the Treasury and we do not act unilaterally here.

The hon. member also referred to the R7½ million for the expansion of the television network. Of course this is not for the purpose of erecting transmitters and so on. The Post Office side of the commitment is to provide “relays” and it is for this purpose that the network is being expanded.

Mention was also made of party lines. There have been complaints about party lines, but although party lines comprise only a very small percentage of our network, the party lines will have to remain for some considerable time to come. However, we have changed over to the new, modern SOR-8 system, a system which enables the subscribers to party lines to enjoy absolute privacy. The ideal we are striving after is eventual automation of the entire system but that is of course a dream of the future. It is not so easy to accomplish because it requires a great deal of capital.

†He also referred to Saponet. I wish to assure him that all data users are already aware of the coming of Saponet. As a matter of fact, it was developed and planned with the full knowledge of the S. A. Computer Society. All concerned are therefore in the know.

*With that I think I have replied to all the questions which were put to me here. That brings me to the end of the task I have to perform here. I said earlier that I would return subsequently to the references to my imminent retirement and to the eulogies which were pronounced on me. I should like to do so at this stage. I am now on the eve of my retirement after having been privileged to be in public service for 16½ years. For five and a half years it fell to my lot to be a member of the House of Assembly. I had two and a half years of service abroad and eight and a half in the Other Place. This makes a total of 16% years. I want to state unequivocally that it was a privilege for me to have been able to have served my country and its people for so long and in such a diversity of capacities. I am pleased that I remained fit enough to do what I did, and I want to give hon. members the assurance that, however they regard or evaluate my efforts, I on my part tried to do my best I did not try to be anything but what I am. I put everything I had into my task, and enjoyed every moment of it I should like to convey my sincere gratitude to all the hon. members on both sides of this House for their truly friendly words and good wishes for the future to my wife and myself.

It was a great privilege for me to be able to serve under our present Prime Minister all these years. He was the person who sent me abroad, and he was the person by whom I was recalled and who gave the opportunity to serve in the Cabinet since 4 August 1969. It goes without saying that this was a privilege which one will never be able to forget. I was pleased to have been able to work under his guidance and that I had his example of how to remain calm and tranquil, to continue to believe in one’s ideals and keep on working for a cause in which one believes.

I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, and also to your predecessor, for the guidance which I received and for the way in which you and he tolerated me. When I was still a young member of this House, I was perhaps a little more obstreperous than I was when I grew older and sat in the front benches. However, I have always experienced the greatest understanding from you as Speaker. The same applies to all the parliamentary officials, from the Secretary down to the most junior service officer, who work in this building. I do not think there was a single one of them who was ever unfriendly to me or who ever let me down, and I should like to place on record my appreciation for their help and support.

I am thinking this evening of my Cabinet colleagues, some of whom have already retired. Among others, mention was made of my old friend, ex-Minister M. C. Botha, who grew up with me in the same town, went to school with me and attended the same university as I did. There are also several others to whom I think back with satisfaction. It was a privilege for me to get to know them, this team with whom I have co-operated and shall continue to co-operate until the 31st of this month. I want to thank them sincerely for their good fellowship and loyal support over all these years.

I am greatly indebted to the Secretaries of the departments which I have administered in my career. I should like to mention their names here tonight.

When I became Minister, Mr. M. C. Erasmus was with the Department of National Education. He retired a long time ago. He was followed by Dr. J. T. van Wyk. Another name that occurs to me is that of Dr. Op ’t Hof, who was the Secretary to the Department of Cultural Affairs when I was Minister of National Education. In addition there is Mr. Rive, the present Postmaster-General and Mr. Van Vuuren, the Secretary for Social Welfare and Pensions. Mr. Speaker, I want to tell you and hon. members this: As long as we have men of this calibre as secretaries of departments, we can consider ourselves lucky in South Africa, because in them we have dedicated and reliable officials who work hard to render a service to their people.

I should also like to convey my gratitude to the private secretaries whom I had and to the one whom I still have at the moment, and to the ministerial staff, primarily the ladies who worked with me in the ministry. I also want to mention the chauffeurs who relieved one of so many burdens, and took so many responsibilities upon themselves in order to make matters easier for one.

Furthermore, I think of my parliamentary colleagues of the past and also the present. Obviously I shall miss your friendship and the pleasure of associating with you. There are many things which one will miss when one leaves the position which one occupied and goes out through that door for the last time. However, one will always have pleasant memories of the co-operation one received from one’s colleagues in Parliament.

In particular I want to mention the caucus groups dealing with the departments which I was in charge of. I am pleased that there was so much interest in the responsibilities which I had here, and that I received so much support from them.

†When I say that, Mr. Speaker, I am also indebted to the hon. members of the Opposition parties who always criticized—which, of course, is their duty—but always did so in a fair and friendly way. I have had many opponents through these years, but I must say that when I am now leaving after 16½ years I do not think I am leaving any enemies in this hon. House.

Hear, hear!

I owe all of them a vote of thanks. I am also thinking of the previous Leader of the Opposition, whom I knew for many years and who has also retired. I hope that, after six months or a year, I shall look as well as he does. I met him the other day in the street. He told me that it had been a wise decision which I had taken to retire. In fact, he said I should have done so long ago.

Mr. Speaker, I should also like to place my gratitude to the voters of the electoral division of Westdene and Johannesburg West on the records of Parliament because they sent me here for the first time. They also made it possible for me to begin a completely new life. In this way I was confronted with the challenge of being of service in a completely unknown field. I hope I did not disappoint their expectations.

I am also thinking of the electoral college of the Free State NP which elected me and kept me in the Senate for eight and a half years as a Senator. To them, too, I am greatly indebted. I am pleased that, with their help, I was able to do a great deal for the party of which I am a member.

Public life made it possible for me to make many friends, inside and outside Parliament I made friends among all kinds of people, and I am grateful for that. After all, what does one do in life if one does not have friends? Because my ties with Parliament made it possible for me, I am very grateful for this, and I should like to place it on record here.

I should also like to mention the Press and the SABC. I must admit that they never treated me shabbily. I am not a person who seeks publicity, but in spite of that I must say that the Press has treated me fairly decently over the years. This is also something to be grateful for, for the day the Press really crosses swords with one, one has more problems than in the normal course of events.

Several hon. members conveyed their congratulations to the designated Minister of Posts and Telecommunications and of Social Welfare and Pensions, the hon. member for Vereeniging. I should like to add my words of congratulations to those expressed. I am pleased that the choice fell on him, because he is a young man of great promise. Therefore a long period of useful service in the interests of his people and of his country awaits him. It is interesting to note that he is becoming a Minister at a younger age than the age at which I became a member of Parliament. It is an indication to him of what can be done and what will have to be done in the tour of duty which awaits him. In this regard it is also interesting to note that I succeeded his father. When his father became President of the Other Place, I took over the portfolio of National Education from him, and now it so happens that the hon. member is taking over my portfolios, although they are other portfolios. That will certainly be a pleasing thought for his father and mother. I congratulate the hon. member and his good wife on the promotion and wish him everything of the best for the future. I should also like to congratulate his parents on the distinction which has befallen them.

I have almost finished now and I just wish to raise one last aspect. I need not say in this House that South Africa is experiencing many major problems and that we are faced with great opportunities and great challenges, yet I do wish to say, from the experience which I have gained in public life and which I have shared with the representatives which we have here in South Africa, that I have every confidence in the future of South Africa. We have in our country the potential, the men and the women to do what is expected of us. I myself believe that I acted wisely by standing down in order to afford our younger people, who have all the abilities to continue the task, an opportunity to take over this task from me. I have completed a long and interesting tour of duty and for that I can only be grateful. Therefore, I gladly stand down to the younger people. I am retiring without a single grievance or frustration. I have had my innings, and I am very grateful for that.

Mr. Speaker, when the debate was last adjourned, I was saying to the hon. the Minister that I had advocated the establishment of a coordinating body for housing before. I want to repeat that when I first learned that the hon. the Minister was going to introduce this legislation, I had great expectations, because I thought that there were possibilities for new developments in the field of housing. I must admit that certain aspects of the legislation do tend in that direction. However, I must add that my all-over feeling is one of slight disappointment because the legislation which is before the House does not go as far as I had hoped it would. I should like to motivate this statement. What is the principle underlying the Bill? It is concerned with the promotion of housing, the provision of land for housing, and the co-ordinating of housing matters. These are both principles to which no one could really object. In fact, we support the principles. However, to give effect to the principles, the Government is proposing that a Housing Matters Advisory Committee be established, as well as a Housing Policy Council. The first body—the advisory committee—has an advisory capacity in relation to the Housing Policy Council. The function of the advisory committee is to investigate and make recommendations with regard to housing matters. In clause 3 of the Bill, the functions of the committee are set out as follows: The formulation of a national housing policy, the promotion of township establishment procedures, the provision and sizes of residential premises, standards of housing and essential services, the application of measures relating to township establishment, the co-ordination of housing matters generally, and, finally, the investigation of any other housing matter. These objectives, too, we support as being essential and we feel that they have been phrased widely enough within the framework of the Bill. Although we support these aspects of the Bill, there are two general problems which I want to emphasize strongly and which I want to bring to the hon. the Minister’s attention.

The one problem is related to the constitution of the advisory committee and the other refers to the delimitation of the field of housing matters to which the advisory committee is to give attention. I want to deal with these two aspects separately.

When we look at the advisory committee which is being envisaged, we see that it consists of 16 members, i.e. the Secretary for Community Development, who shall be chairman of the committee; three persons from the Department of Community Development; one person from the Department of Planning and the Environment—the Bill provides that these four persons shall each hold the rank of at least a Deputy Secretary—the Director of Local Government of every provincial administration, i.e. four; the chairman of the National Housing Commission; two persons from the United Municipal Executive and four other persons appointed by the Minister by virtue of their special knowledge of housing matters. One of the latter four has to be appointed with at least the approval of the Minister of Finance. It is clear at first glance that with the exception of four persons, all the members of the advisory committee are concerned in some capacity with government administration, whether on the local, provincial or central level. As such, the committee is not really an advisory committee in the usual sense of the word, but a committee which could bring about better co-operation in respect of housing matters on various levels of authority. This is the way I see the committee on the basis of its constitution. This is also desirable, but it is something different from establishing an expect advisory council. I just want to repeat this point. One could establish an advisory committee consisting of experts who could then liaise with those authorities that deal with housing matters, or otherwise one could take cognizance of the various authorities involved in housing matters and create a body to bring about better co-operation between these authorities. What this Bill is really doing is to create such a body representative of various authorities which will not necessarily give advice, but which is mainly designed to create better liaison and co-operation between authorities.

Is it not possible for us to achieve both these objectives?

I shall come back to this very point later on.

What I had expected and pleaded for in the past was in fact a co-ordinating advisory council which would achieve two things. On the one hand, it should unite in one body the Government departments and other authorities which deal with housing in general. I have pleaded for this in the past. The Government departments I have in mind are the Department of Community Development, the Department of Planning and the Environment, the Department of Coloured Relations, the Department of Indian Affairs and the Department of Plural Relations, as well as authorities such as divisional councils and local authorities. I have fully motivated my plea for this in the past. I want to use an illustration, not to be contentious, but merely to explain the problem to the hon. the Minister. Last year the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Amendment Bill was passed. The hon. the Minister of Community Development had to introduce that legislation. However, we all knew and felt that the legislation was not only concerned with problems affecting the hon. the Minister of Community Development. It also had a bearing on the Department of Coloured Relations and especially on the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, as it was then called. It was rather difficult to get a debate going about it because of the fact that various departments were involved. Nevertheless, one Minister had to accept the responsibility at that time for piloting through the Bill, although the problems relating to housing extended beyond the responsibility of that specific Minister. For that reason I have pleaded in the past for a body which could co-ordinate the various Government departments so that there could be an exchange of ideas and so that one could get a decent debate going about housing. This is the one aspect of such an advisory council which I believe to be important. The other aspect is equally important, and that is that together with this liaison between various departments on various levels, experts in the field of housing should also be involved. I am thinking, for example, of building societies, town planners, architects and academic experts in the field of housing. Especially with regard to the category of housing which interests me, namely that of low-cost housing, a tremendous amount of research has been done by various bodies and university departments, not only in South Africa, but throughout the world. I think that this expert advice could be put to good use by such an advisory committee. As I have just spelt out, a body with the same objectives as the ones envisaged by this Bill could advise authorities responsible for housing. However, what is now happening is in effect that the same people who are responsible for the provision of housing have to advise themselves. The danger of this is that we could set a vicious bureaucratic circle in motion. I am not saying that this will necessarily be the case, but the danger exists precisely because the people who are going to be members of the advisory council are so directly involved in the provision of housing and in all the problems relating to housing. Because they basically have to advise themselves, one is creating a circle in which people who are involved in the matter have to liaise with one another. I had really hoped that the hon. the Minister would avail himself of the opportunity of making the provisions of the Bill a little wider than they are at the moment.

The hon. the Minister may tell me that expert advice may in fact be obtained in terms of clause 4(1)(g), which provides that four experts may in the discretion of the hon. the Minister be appointed to the committee, and clause 3(4), in terms of which the committee may take evidence from anyone concerning any matter in which it takes an interest But I think the hon. the Minister will agree with me that these two provisions in the Bill are discretionary rather than mandatory and do not affect the problem I have just outlined. My problem with the constitution of the advisory committee is on the one hand that the hon. the Minister has let slip a golden opportunity to establish a really expert advisory committee, and, on the other hand, that although the proposed body is a step in the right direction, it will not be able to perform effectively the functions contained in the Bill. This is the first problem I have with this Bill.

My second problem is related to the delimitation of the field of housing matters to which the advisory committee is to give attention. Clause 3(3) provides that the advisory committee shall not have any powers as to any housing matters to which the provisions of the Community Development Act or the Housing Act are applicable. In his Second Reading speech introducing the Bill, the hon. the Minister gave the following motivation for the exclusion of the Community Development Act and the Housing Act, and I should like to quote him. He said (Hansard, 13 March)—

This quotation has actually been taken over word for word from paragraph 148 of the report of the commission of inquiry into housing matters. In any event, this is said there. However, what are the implications of this motivation by the hon. the Minister? Clearly, a distinction is being made here between housing matters relating to middle- and high-income groups—whether of private or public concern—and low-cost housing. This is the distinction which is in effect being drawn here. In practice it means that the problem with middle- and high-income groups, as far as housing is concerned, is largely related to Whites, while low-cost housing is largely related to Blacks. When I say Blacks, I include Coloured people and Indians. I do not say exclusively; I say largely. In other words, the functions of this proposed advisory committee are largely limited to housing matters concerning the Whites.

You people do see colour in everything, don’t you?

The hon. the Minister should just give me a chance. He should not get excited now. I shall try to motivate my case. I ask in all sincerity: What are the most important problem areas in respect of the housing of middle- and high-income groups in South Africa? What are the problem areas which have necessitated the introduction of this Bill?

Have you not read the Fouché report?

Yes, but I am just going to repeat this. I am trying to motivate the case. The hon. members have no reason to get excited. The commission of inquiry reported on this—and now I am coming to the crux of the matter—and the hon. the Minister also referred to these problems in the Second Reading debate. I want to repeat them. They are, amongst other things, the lack of advance planning, undeveloped residential plots, new township developments which are continuing in spite of these undeveloped residential plots, the lack of services, financing problems, dubious practices, etc. Let me say at once: We agree that there must be co-ordination and planning in respect of these problems as well and that there must be a clear housing policy. In this connection, too, such a policy must be formulated. We have no objection to that. However, if there is a need for an expert advisory committee for middle- and high-income group housing, such as I have just referred to, it is equally true, if not more so, that an advisory committee is also required for low-cost housing.

This need cannot be argued away by saying that the machinery already exists for handling low-cost housing. That is what the hon. the Minister said in the Second Reading speech. He said we were not going to make this advisory committee applicable to low-cost housing, because we have existing machinery which can deal with the problem of low-cost housing. Machinery already exists for dealing with the problem of middle-income and high-income housing. That machinery already exists. What does not exist, however, is an advisory committee in connection with these categories of housing and the problems they involve.

The problem is that there is in fact an urgent need to co-ordinate action, to formulate policy, to determine the nature, quality and scope of housing, not only in respect of middle- and high-income housing, but also in respect of low-cost housing. In fact, I have repeatedly said in the past that our most urgent housing problems are in connection with the low-income groups. Here in particular we have problems. We have here exactly the same problems to which the hon. the Minister referred with regard to middle- and high-income groups, i.e. services, financing and the quality of housing. The problem is equally critical on the low-income level and on the middle- and high-income levels. My question is simply this: What equivalent is there on the low-income level for an advisory committee as envisaged in this Bill for the housing of middle- and high-income groups? The hon. the Minister will probably refer me to the legislation mentioned in this Bill, i.e. the Community Development Act and the Housing Act. However, these are administrative or executive bodies which are directly involved in the establishment and provision of low-cost housing. It is not an advisory committee in the normal sense of the word. Therefore I want to ask whether it is not on this level of low-cost housing that there is a need for serious, authoritative reflection on the availability of land, amongst other things.

I have said repeatedly that we are faced with a tremendous problem, a problem of an influx to the cities as a result of the migration of rural people to the cities. We have to contend with the problem of an increase in the population. These are social processes which are in progress, processes which will continue, no matter what Government is in power. However, they are going to create tremendous problems with regard to the availability of land for the housing purposes of the lower income groups. To be able to plan for the future in this respect means that a committee of experts is required, a committee which will be able to investigate the tempo of urbanization, the tempo of population increase, the need for land which is going to arise, and which will be able to plan ahead with all these things in mind.

A second problem is the co-ordination of Government departments and of other authorities responsible for low-cost housing. I made the same statement earlier in my speech when I said that it was no use having separate Government departments which are basically involved with the same housing problems, if there is no co-ordination between them. In the third place, I refer to a statement which I made several weeks ago when a private member’s motion on housing and housing matters was discussed in this House. I then said that there was a need for expert advice with regard to an alternative strategy for handling the growing problems in connection with the provision of low-cost housing. I just want to refer briefly to the reaction of the hon. the Minister when I made this statement at the time. When I said that we should investigate an alternative strategy, because we are dealing here with a real socio-economic problem, the hon. the Minister—for whatever reason—got up here and said: “Yes, but the hon. member for Rondebosch wants people to squat. He has thrown in the towel. Now he simply wants to let things slide.” This is not what it was all about, of course. What I was trying to say was that if there is no alternative strategy, if there is no alternative accommodation, and we view the real socio-economic processes which are taking place against that background, we shall have to accept that the problem of squatting is going to increase. For this reason, our attitude should be that if we cannot provide alternative accommodation— because of a lack of funds, or for whatever reason—we shall have to look for an alternative strategy. This is not because we want people to squat. It is simply because they are going to do it anyway. We must try to find out how we can control this problem rather than to pretend that it does not exist. To be able to do this, we must look for an alternative housing strategy. This does not necessarily imply that we should concern ourselves exclusively with the problem of low-cost housing. However, we should try to ascertain whether there are other possibilities.

The hon. the Minister knows this. His department has already begun to experiment with these core units. They are already looking at core houses. However, this is only one possibility. There are other possibilities as well, and it is in this connection, I believe, that there should really be an advisory committee which can give penetrating and important advice. The point I am making, therefore, is that I believe it to be a mistake to think that problems in connection with low-cost and middle- and high-income group housing are not interdependent. The problems pertaining to one category of housing and those of another category are interdependent. For example: To plan township development, to make land available and to provide services for the one category, the middle- and high-income group, is bound to influence the availability of the same facilities for the low-income category. The two are interdependent, because one has the same geographical urban unit, and if people come there and one is going to distinguish between various categories of housing and say that the problems of the two categories are not interdependent, one is only going to create problems for oneself. In addition, one can say that, for example, not to plan properly with regard to the problems of low-cost housing may lead to all kinds of urban problems such as uncontrolled squatting, which in turn, if it assumes major proportions, can influence high- and middle-income group housing. That is why I believe it is a serious deficiency in this Bill that it deliberately draws a distinction between the various categories of the housing. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind as to the fact that the most serious crisis in respect of housing lies in the field of the low-income group. This is indicated by research, and anyone who is at all sensitive to the socio-economic powers operating in South Africa and in Southern Africa is bound to realize the tremendous extent of the problem and the great need for expert advice and planning. In this respect, too, the hon. the Minister has in my opinion let slip a golden opportunity to combat a serious shortcoming. This is basically my dilemma with this Bill. I just want to repeat one point. On the one hand, it is concerned with the constitution of this advisory committee, and on the other with the field which has been delimited. Therefore, when one thinks of constructive amendments one could move, one really finds oneself in the difficult position that virtually the whole Bill has to be rewritten, because if one is going to tamper with the constitution of the advisory committee, this will immediately have indications for the delimitation of the field covered by this Bill. If, on the other hand, one wants to make the field a little wider by means of an amendment, one immediately has to tamper with the constitution of the advisory committee. Therefore one finds oneself in the difficult situation that one either has to rewrite the whole Bill, so that it will be able to deal with the problems I have brought to the attention of the hon. the Minister, or one has to say that this step which has been taken is a good one in principle and should be accepted as it is.

To summarize, I just want to say that although we have no objection to the principle contained in the Bill and no objection to what it seeks to achieve, we believe, however, that it does not go nearly far enough to achieve what we believe should really be achieved. We believe that the machinery it creates, as well as the formulated objective which the hon. the Minister has set himself in the Bill, is inadequate and that the field which has been delimited is too narrow. This is the dilemma one has to contend with. Here we have machinery which is good in principle. The objectives are good in principle, but the field which has been defined, the field in respect of which the advisory committee has to perform its tasks, as well as the constitution of the advisory committee, is such that it is not really going to penetrate to the heart of the housing problem. Although we are pointing out these problems, we recognize that this is in fact a beginning. We can support the premise of the measure, because it is a premise which points in the right direction. It also offers possibilities for improvement.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Rondebosch has the ability to chat entertainingly about a matter without understanding what it is all about. [Interjections.] I do not mean this in a derogatory sense. What I am saying, is that the hon. member has for years been asking for this committee, but now that the committee has been established, he criticizes it.

Were you not listening?

Mr. Speaker, I just want to say to that hon. member: “Tiaantjie, you must leave me alone. We only talk to the Van der Merwes after dark.” This is an advisory and co-ordinating body. What people serve in it? What were the bottlenecks which the commission found? One was that there was no co-ordination in the establishment of townships. I can tell the hon. member that the township developers of South Africa have as much, and even more, knowledge than any other township developers in the world. Regardless of whether a comparison is made with America or Australia, say, township development is done better here than in other countries. But because there is no co-ordination in the sense in which it is necessary, the matter is not properly expedited. The capital which is invested, should have a faster turnover. There is no standardization in the sense that every municipality acts according to the same set of rules. The engineer of every city council could lay down a new set of rules for one. That is not being done wilfully; the people are simply not coordinated. They act in isolation. But they are experts in their field. The problem which the Department of Community Development has with low-cost housing, is not to be found in the erection of the structure, but in the acquisition and subdivision of the land, the standardization of the material and the time it takes to develop a town. It has nothing to do with structure itself. The structure, the finishing-off, etc., have for years fallen under the Department of Community Development, and they have been very successful in the supply of housing. As far as Coloured housing is concerned, I cannot agree with the hon. member; one should not see a home as a White or a Black home.

Never mind, I do not see it that way.

But the hon. member says that one should consult the Coloureds because they are going to live in these houses. Did the hon. member not say that we have one culture?

No, I did not say that.

We do not have one culture? I want to say that we do have one culture and that we must build houses according to people’s income.

Yes, that is true.

Yes, the provision must be in accordance with his income and the Department of Community Development has proved over the past 20 years that they are par excellence the body which supplies the most low-cost housing.

One cannot deny the fact that the hon. member has good intentions, but that at the end of his intentions there is a snag. For example, he has come forward again with his old idea that a slum is really a resting-place. That is part of his philosophy. A person’s problems arise, says Plato, when one has no knowledge of a matter. Plato said that a problem is not a problem because it is a problem, but that it is a lack of knowledge. That is so. I want to say that I would be able to provide housing for a squatter with a low income if I were allowed to use accepted materials in municipal areas. I am thinking for example of plastic pipes in lengths of 300 feet. Tests have proved that those pipes can last for up to 50 years and when they are used in the sandy soil of the Cape Peninsula, they leave no openings through which the roots of trees, etc., can penetrate and cause leakages. There are two to three times less labour costs involved with them than, for example, with glazed pipes. These are the methods which can be applied. Why do we want this committee? We must remember that the members of the committee are experts.

That has nothing to do with low-cost housing.

No, it follows from that. We are still concerned with the development of the town now and we are discussing the question of material. When one can keep the cost of material and the cost of the stand as low as R2 000, one can build a house for a person with a low income of R7 000, a home with two or three bedrooms. A home of R11 000 or R18 000 can be built according to income. But then the principles of township development must also be correct. The availability of land is not a problem, although the commission says that too much land has come into the hands of township developers over the years. If such land has been bought at a certain price and it is not sold for a period of ten years, it will double in value, while the interest will also be doubled. The interest on a town which is not developed for four or five years or, in fact for nine years, will be more than the total purchase cost of that town. Let us presume that somebody buys a plot for R2 500 or R2 200 …

Who buys this stand?

No, I am just taking a general example to calculate the financial costs. The hon. member can learn from that, too. The point is: Regardless of whether one has paid R6 500 or R2 200 for a stand, one will find after nine years that if one wants to speculate with this stand, one will get R7 000 for it. If one invests the money in the ordinary way …

[Inaudible.]

Now, now, Mugabe, I shall reply to you in a moment. [Interjections.] All I want to tell the hon. members, is that if one invests that money in the bank for a period of nine years and at an interest rate of 10%, one will get R6 500 or R7 000 in any case. Hon. members can calculate that. We need therefore not be concerned about speculators. We need not complain about these things either. But we must give the co-ordinating body muscle. We must not make this body suspect. Such a body cannot be an autocratic body, because its composition is such that it cannot be autocratic. The members of that body are, inter alia, the Secretary for Community Development, and the Administrator. Those people are elected on account of the expert knowledge which they possess, and not on account of their political feelings. [Interjections.] That hon. member must remember one thing. They criticize before they have gone into the matter in depth. They tackled the matter before they understood the crux of the matter. The crux of the problem of housing in South Africa is township development and the size of plots.

For many years one could not obtain a plot smaller than 10 000 sq. feet in the Transvaal. Mr. Speaker, do you know what it costs to lay out such a plot? Do you realize, for example, how much more it costs to supply such a plot with sewerage than for example one of 7 000 sq. feet? When one plans a plot correctly, one will have sufficient space. One does not need big spaces, because one has sufficient space to move about properly in and to build a proper home on. Plots of that size bring about that the length of the tarmac road which must be constructed, doubles the cost of the plot. The road is normally 18 feet wide. Because there is not sufficient coordination, a municipality may for example feel that it may one day become necessary to widen the road. Instead of shifting back the building line—that is the distance which the house may be built away from the road—so that land will be available if a part of the plot is possibly required, the municipalities prefer to widen the roads.

Because there is no co-ordination, one must assume that the cost of constructing a road will be trebled. To give hon. members an idea of what I mean:

A kilometre of tarmac road with its paving and everything connected with it, today costs anything between R60 000 and R70 000. The paving and everything connected with that, is absolutely unnecessary. The co-ordinating body would, for example, eliminate channels and they would simply not calculate kerbstones and other unnecessary items in the cost structure. Nor will the standards of the materials be made inferior, but they will be acceptable and suitable for any municipality because the municipalities themselves will have a say in the matter, and not somebody in a position of authority who wants to impose new materials and practices on them. They will get the opportunity at municipal level also to play a part in the choice of the material and the methods to be used. They will co-operate, just as other municipalities have co-operated through the years under the guidance of the hon. the Minister and of the Department of Community Development.

As far as low-cost housing is concerned, it is the commercial services in particular which cause the high costs. Sewerage causes very high costs, but by the application of a certain financial policy, this can be eliminated. If a municipality is, for example, prepared to negotiate a loan to construct a sewerage system and then to pay off the debt over a period of 33 years or 20 years, it is not at all necessary to pay more than R2 500 or R2 000 for a plot If the municipality is prepared to install electricity, the cost can be dealt with in the same way. In the years before 1964 already, that was the customary procedure and such services were never paid for in one sum. The cost was built into the amount which a person had to pay for his ordinary refuse removal, electricity, etc. There was never such a thing as a levy of R2 000 or R3 000 for services on a stand. The result of that was that the price of each stand rose by approximately 100% to 200%. That is why we need the financial experts on the committee. In the same way we need representatives of municipalities and the Director of Local Government to see to it that regulations are changed in order that—before the development of a town is started:—it can be known what the costs of the plots will be when the township development is complete. One of the most important aspects in connection with the determination of the cost of housing, is the development of a town. Nobody goes out of his way to push up costs, but it is a fact that municipalities, housing departments and roads departments, contribute to the high cost of housing without being aware of it. A road which goes through a town, can delay the development of that town by six to seven years. The development of certain suburbs in Johannesburg was delayed for as much as 15 years because a road which runs through there, had not been completed. One can now expect that towns which experience such problems, will be referred to the co-ordinating body. A Director of Local Government will be able to place the problems in his area before the committee. It can, for example, be expected of the department to reply within a month or two or perhaps three months, as to whether it is going to relocate the roads, or to indicate a new method according to which such a road which has not yet been proclaimed, may be converted into a single plot in order that the development of the remaining part of the town may be continued.

Under the present set-up this cannot be done, because there is at present not yet the necessary co-operation and co-ordination for which this Bill makes provision.

One must take all these things into account. Local authorities have lately been going out of their way to be helpful and they can, for example, tackle the problem of simplifying township development from their side. The hon. members must remember, however, that there are 46 different departments which are concerned in the development of townships. There are six departments that are primarily concerned with this, and these departments can influence the development of a town to a great extent. Say for instance that Town A is being established. Everything which is necessary, is done. The land is ready, the application is ready, the services are requested and can be installed, and money is available for all the services. Letters are then addressed to all the departments. Suppose the Post Office does not reply to the letter, or suppose the Railways has not yet finished their planning for a certain area. In such cases one is not going to get a reply and the money which one has invested in such an undertaking, lies unused and merely accumulates interest year after year. All that happens, is that the costs escalate. Perhaps the Railways is unable to reply, but if such an advisory body is established, the details can, even before the application for development, be submitted to the committee which can request the different departments to reply within one, two or three months on the proposed township lay-out. The township can then be established, or one can know that the township development should rather be abandoned before one encounters nothing but problems.

I am grateful that this Bill has been introduced. We should never strive for absolute perfection in everything, but we should believe that when one starts correctly, one ends well.

Mr. Speaker, since it is a late point in the debate and we are all tired, I move—

Mr. Speaker, I move—