Mr Chairman, universities and other tertiary education institutions throughout the world are experiencing financial pressure in the late eighties. This is particularly apparent from the curtailing of State subsidies here, as well as in other countries, simply because there is not enough money in the Treasury to meet the priorities. Behind this phenomenon lies a general weakening in the world economy and a paralysing world-wide recession in the early eighties, from which the world is slowly recovering. Even now that there has been an improvement in the economy, projections with regard to economic growth are scarcely inspiring news for educational leaders.

The excellence of the service rendered by the department to the tertiary education sector, as well as the institutions themselves, must be assessed against this background. The developments in the tertiary education sector must also be viewed against this background. Briefly what this amounts to is that tertiary education is compelled to trim its sails to the economic wind.

†Such a scaling down of resources—dare I call it a streamlining of resources?—or rationalisation is always, even in affluent industrialised countries, a painful process for the management and teaching staff and all others directly affected. Needless to say, some try to score political points from this against the Government. To the initiated, however, this problem transcends political differences, and largely similar problems and ways of handling them are therefore found in countries with divergent leadership styles and governments. Tertiary education world-wide finds itself in a universal situation. This is one of the most pressing problems of our times.

*At present 302 000 students are training at the tertiary education institutions affiliated to my department in terms of the Act, to prepare themselves for a professional career. Universities are an excellent source of high-level manpower of which any country can be proud. They not only provide manpower for other sectors, but also ensure that the teachers, lecturers and researchers, which the education community needs, are provided.

To ensure a revival in the economy it is also necessary that sufficient scientific and technological manpower be provided on an on-going basis. For the cultural and spiritual life of the people a varied labour force, skilled in the humanities, is also needed. The task of tertiary education in this regard must be implemented without in-breeding occurring because of isolation or academic superficiality.

Our tertiary institutions also have a major responsibility as regards research. The fundamental research provided by scientific study at our universities, the applied research at technological level, which is undertaken by the technikons, and the didactic research at our teachers’ colleges, all contribute to the viability and dynamism of our economy, our intellectual life and our norms as a civilized community.

It is clear that our tertiary sector has a task which goes further than mere preparation for a career, mere academic schooling and research training. I believe that our universities, technikons and teachers’ training colleges in general can prepare our young people well for the challenges of today and tomorrow. For this we need money and yet more money.

Universities, technikons and teachers’ training colleges can also, through rationalisation, lower the per capita costs of training considerably without necessarily comprising standards. In the Cape, Natal and the Transvaal we have already succeeded in rationalising teachers’ training colleges through amalgamation or in other ways. This is a painful process, but radically underutilised facilities are not economically justifiable. Through rationalisation bigger and more viable institutions for the training of teachers have been ensured.

It is true that institutions with renowned traditions will have to close down. However, the economic utilisation of vacated facilities and the economic value which the institutions have for local community life have been retained. Radical surgery was needed, but as a result of this the teaching community is better prepared for the future and the education system has been strengthened educationally because institutions have become more vital, while cost-effectiveness has also been increased.

Facilities which have fallen into disuse are preferably being utilised in a meaningful way by other components of the department. In Paarl and Graaff-Reinet, for example, parts of the unutilised teachers’ training college facilities will be used for other educational needs. Because the Pretoriase Onderwyskollege moved into new buildings this year, for which they have waited for decades, facilities became available for other institutions which needed accommodation desperately, such as the Pretoria College of Education and the Pretoria School for Drama, Art, Music and Ballet, which has been accommodated in prefabricated buildings since its establishment and has been looking forward eagerly to better facilities.

In the Free State we are also trying at present by means of rationalisation of education institutions to establish a campus for the OFS Technikon, which is at present being accommodated in rented buildings. We hope that negotiations in this regard, which will save the State millions of rands, will be finalised soon.

†Likewise the universities and technikons are presently in the process of rationalisation. The department readily leaves the decision of the implementation of rationalisation to these institutions. Indeed, universities and technikons have already started rationalisation in an accountable way. Universities, for that matter, instituted a macro-investigation during which all aspects of universities were thoroughly researched.

It is, however, only the beginning of a continuous and incisive discussion on the future of tertiary education in the Republic of South Africa and the mission of the specific institutions. In this search for the aims and most appropriate structuring of tertiary education, it is imperative that everything possible be done to focus attention on the following problems and challenges: Firstly, the expenses involved in tertiary education especially are increasing at an alarming rate. This trend, coupled with the priorities the State was compelled to determine, led to the universities receiving an amount which was a quarter less than the amount deemed to be the ideal amount of State subsidy.

That is a big cut.

Yes, it is very big indeed. Courses provided on an uneconomic basis present a further problem. Thirdly, the position of technology in society, and the role of technikons in this regard, need consideration. Another problem is how to ensure that students, who are not capable of coping at a university, can be excluded, and how students who are not progressing, can be eliminated at an early stage. How standards can be maintained and even extended, is another question. A last question which has to be considered, is how the tertiary education needs of a rapidly growing Third World population may be accommodated equitably without the existing institutions of this department losing their ethos and innate character.

All this will have to be taken into account in a comprehensive rationalisation campaign. It is not the intention of the State to encroach upon the autonomy of universities and technikons, but it is expected of tertiary education institutions to preserve the traditional and accepted academic values thereby ensuring that the taxpayers’ money is not squandered.

My department is at present still conducting investigations into and drawing up work documents on the limitation of the growth rate at universities. As soon as these have been completed, it is my intention to conduct a personal discussion with every rector once again this year to determine a growth limit for each university and, if necessary, taking into consideration local needs so that the large number of students, who should not be at university, can be phased out and the limited State funds for universities can be utilised and appropriated more effectively. Informal, but structured, meetings between my senior officials, the rectors and myself are anticipated for the discussions on rationalisation between universities and on other problems which are experienced in this sector.

May I reiterate: My door and that of my department are at all times open for negotiation and discussion.

*I have already pointed out the importance of technikons for the provision of essential technological manpower for a developing Republic of South Africa. The department is supporting the growth of these institutions.

This year technikons are being financed in terms of a new formula. The adjustments were more difficult for some technikons than for others and problems did crop up. These matters are receiving the necessary attention, and what is more my department will negotiate the best that is feasible for the technikons in the present economic climate.

Several technikons are also establishing campuses, which is a difficult task owing to the general economic climate, but also because the growth in student numbers at technikons is being restricted by this climate. Capital amounts needed for physical development are generated by the growth in student numbers.

However, my department is intimately acquainted with the state of affairs at each of the technikons and will constantly ensure that the development of technikons is stimulated within the ability of the State.

Because of this background I can confidently say that campus development is continuing, that the facilities being created are goal-orientated and that the completed campuses will suit the stature of a proud technikon tradition.

The Technikons Amendment Bill which was dealt with earlier on in this session is conclusive proof of the serious intention of my department to allow technikons to flourish. The new legislation confirms the autonomy of the technikons. It creates the possibility for the responsibility for examinations to devolve on technikons, and it allows technikons to incorporate existing institutions as schools or departments of the technikon itself when a bona fide need for this has been identified.

Specific training facilities also received attention. The training of ships’ technicians, for example, which is of specific economic value and strategic importance, will take place at technikon level in the near future, in co-operation with the Cape Technikon. Approval has also been given for a variety of diplomas, for which there is an urgent need in the respective areas of the private sector in the RSA, to be offered.

It is also gratifying that a growing need for advanced diplomas at technikons has been perceived and this augurs well for the further development of high-level technology in the RSA.

†I wish to express a last thought on teacher training. Voices are raised, in this House and outside, urging that the doors of colleges of education be thrown open.

Let me put this matter to rest once and for all. Colleges of education are institutions with a specific mandate to train teachers for the primary school. The education policy of this Government is founded on educational principles, one of which is that school education should be a continuation of the values, the ethos and education provided by the home. This means that school education must provide cultural, community and language continuity. Mother-tongue education is a prerequisite for sound education. This is no ideological exercise—it is a statement of fact, verified scientifically all over the world and enshrined in the principles enunciated by none other than Unesco.

If this is so, colleges of education of a particular cultural group are in no position to provide initial training to the primary school teachers of other communities. The colleges under the jurisdiction of my department can provide neither the cultural background, nor the language tuition required, nor a linking up of education with the particular needs of another community. I do not expect them to try to do so; neither would I expect the educational communities of other groups to request such a service.

Clearly it is not in the educational interests of any group that institutions for the initial training of primary school teachers be thrown open. Equally clearly specialised services at the level of further specialised training have in the past been made available. I shall continue to do so in the future. In this regard may I also reiterate that I shall place no impediment on any teacher of my department who wishes to serve in another department.

*Today I want to reconfirm the following: Education and training as an own affair is non-negotiable as far as we are concerned because this is a prerequisite for an own community life. This is a group right which we will maintain at all levels of education, but when we can render a service without jeopardising this group right we shall be only too pleased to do so for our fellow citizens.

I should now like to take this opportunity to reply to a number of the arguments raised, particularly those of the hon members for Brits and Potgietersrus. Later on in the day I shall reply to the speeches of the hon members for Pinetown and Durban North. I also want to mention that I am glad to see that the hon member for Brits is still attending this session of the discussion this morning. [Interjections.]

I want to state at the outset: This is my fifteenth year in Parliament. Over the years we have done everything we could to keep the education debate educational, to raise educational arguments and to have in-depth discussions on matters which affect education and training.

We tried to steer clear of party politics. I am sorry to say that party politics form part of this debate and that it has been worse than ever this year. This is a pity. However, when I say that it is a pity, what the hon member for Pinetown said, was also true, namely that politics, culture and education cannot be separated from one another. However, he added a very important qualification. He was right; he spoke about politics in general, politics in the sense of community relations. However, when we are dealing with party politics, it is a different matter. Then, in consequence of what the hon member said, we must try to keep party politics out of the classroom. When I say this, we must also try to keep party politics out of the school in general. I am afraid that …

[Inaudible.]

The hon member must give me a chance; I am not in the mood to quarrel with him.

Today I want to tell hon members—and I am appealing for this—that if we can succeed in keeping party politics out of the school, this will be in the interests of the unimpeded teaching of knowledge and the cultural education of the children entrusted to our care. Then we are indeed taking care of our future; then we are raising a generation which can hold its own in the multicultural society in which we find ourselves. However, if we totally politicise our education and our schools, we are going to do not only the children of today, but also the future of this country an injustice. I really want to appeal for us to move away from the more party-political arguments; for us not to try to score political debating points off one another.

With all due respect I want to say that in my opinion the hon members for Brits and Potgietersrus did not make a contribution in their speeches to the discussion of education and training. The hon members put specific questions and raised party-political points from their specific angle. I have to reply to them, and I am going to try to do so briefly.

Of course we are experiencing a period of rationalisation and in many spheres we do not have enough money because it is the State’s priority to use the money available in the Treasury in other spheres as well. However, one thing is certain, and I want to repeat this today, namely that we dare not save so much on education that it adversely affects the standards, because if we do that we are harming ourselves.

After the De Lange Report, the Government gave an undertaking in its White Paper that it would continue this process. On the other hand it is also true that we shall have to look at luxuries which have appeared at our schools over the past few years and which are unnecessary. This is what is at issue when we say that these are certain basic things we are starting to curtail now. We say that the time has now come for the school itself, or the parent community or the community in general to make a contribution towards the maintenance of sports fields, for example. This does not mean that the quality or the standard of education in the classroom is being lowered.

A request has been made—I want to make it clear that it was a request made in the Cape for example by the Cape Director of Education, as well as by other directors of education, because economising is not being enforced directly—to save 25% on text-books here in the Cape. An investigation was undertaken by the Cape Director of Education, and it was found that if only one text-book too many were ordered in every school in the Cape for every subject taught, this would cost the Cape Education Department R417 000 for that year. Schools are also sometimes inclined, when they make provision for text-books for the following year, to order them in multiples of five. A number of books therefore remain unused. I repeat, if only one book too many were ordered for every subject in every school in the Cape, it would cost R417 000. We can, therefore, investigate this.

A request was made for a saving in respect of electricity and I can mention the example of four schools in Worcester, which grasped this opportunity and negotiated with the town council of Worcester. As a result of their negotiations they saved an amount of R30 522 per annum. I want to tell hon members that communities and parents have the initiative to achieve big savings, and this is what we are asking for.

I want to ask hon members of the CP, when we are discussing these economising measures, not to think that we are adversely affecting the standard of education. We are not asking for the money because we need it for the education of any other group. I should like to ask hon members to handle these matters in a responsible way. [Interjections.]

I should like to touch on another matter which the hon member mentioned. He spoke about party politics, and accused us of introducing party politics into schools. I can say without fear of contradiction that one cannot operate an education system separately from the Constitution. No country in the world can do that. The Constitution of this country—it was agreed to by the majority of the people in this country—which is in force at the moment …

Whites!

Yes, Whites.

The Constitution which is in force at the moment is based on the recognition of both own and general affairs. For that reason the education policy is also based on the same principle of the recognition of the right to self-determination in own education and for own primary education, but on the other hand there is the recognition of the absolute reality of the common world in which we find ourselves. [Interjections.] When we do this, we are therefore not engaged in party politics as such. We are presenting education on the basis of Constitution which is supported by most of the White people in this country. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Brentwood pointed out that the former member for Koedoespoort, Dr Frans van Staden, had blatantly said at the CP congress that they appealed to CP members to take over the management boards of schools, so that they could select the teachers and therefore could prevent the party politics of the NP in the schools. [Interjections.] Those people are blaming us for this, whereas their chief spokesman on education was the one who said this. If he wanted to put it that way, it is just as well he did. However, he must also make the facts known to the general public.

Allow me in this regard to refer to what I have here in my hand. Yesterday evening an election was held at the Ermelo High School in the constituency of the hon member for Ermelo. A management board was elected for the school. What happened in this regard? I have here in my hand a pamphlet distributed in Ermelo. I am quoting from it:

This is the caption, plus two or three sentences.

Is that not true?

I shall come to that in a moment. Below this the following appears:

… and so on. The hon member has now asked me whether or not this is true. Yes, it is true. If the schools are thrown open, these things can be threatened.

Mr P C CRONJÉ: Do not say that, because next year you will.

However, I strongly object to the way in which the CP is conducting its politics. What happened there? A straw doll was set up and they said: “There is the doll” and then they started to knock it down. That is precisely what is being done here. The pamphlet went on to ask what had already happened, the Menlo Park incident was mentioned and then it stated:

Hon members can see that this is typical. It is simply suspicion-mongering.

That is a downright lie.

Tell us how many!

I shall tell the hon member in a moment.

Hon members make statements and say “it is alleged” and then disseminate this information. The hon member for Lichtenburg now has plenty to say here and has shouted: “Tell us how many!”. In reply to a question which the hon member asked on 27 May 1987, we said that there were 13 State-controlled schools which admitted children of colour.

Did you say 30 or 13?

I said 13. However, there is nothing strange about that. The fact of the matter is that when the hon member for Lichtenburg was still on this side of the House, we admitted children of colour of diplomats to State-controlled schools. These are the children who are being admitted. In reply to a question in this House I have already said that the children of colour admitted to State-controlled schools were the children of diplomats. However, that is what these hon members are saying outside. [Interjections.]

They go on to say the following, under the caption “Regeringsbeleid”:

Again this is a distortion, because I did not say that the management board had to decide on admission to schools. I said that in terms of the devolution of power specific functions had devolved on management boards, but this did not apply in respect of admission to schools, because that was departmental policy which was laid down by the Minister. These are the untruths and half-truths which the hon members are disseminating, while they are accusing us of introducing politics into education. [Interjections.]

What was the result of the election?

I do not care what the result of the election was. If the CP want to pride themselves on having taken over the management board, they must do so. That is not what is at issue. I am simply getting rid of the petty party politics.

In conclusion I want to say that the parent community of each school has a duty and a responsibility to see to it that members elected to the management board are representative of the wishes and aspirations of the majority of parents for their schools.

Are you for or against that?

That is what we want. We want the majority of parents to be represented on those management boards.

That is what happened in Ermelo.

If that does not happen, precisely the same thing will happen as happened in Menlo Park.

What happened in Ermelo?

I am appealing to all parents at all schools to become involved and to see to it that the majority of the parents are represented on the management boards.

The hon member for Brits saw fit to express an opinion on the tragic events at the Hendrik Verwoerd High School in Pretoria. I am sorry that the hon member, who pretends that he has the interests of education and teachers at heart, is trying in his own way in this Committee to crucify a teacher or teachers or a director of education in public. I consider this despicable and am not prepared to emulate him. I am not prepared to crucify the teachers in this country in public. The hon member cast suspicion on the Director of Education of the Transvaal.

His speech!

I have every confidence that the Director of Education of the Transvaal acted educationally, and in every decision he takes he is mindful of the best interests of the child.

According to your philosophy.

He is not acting in the interests of the NP, the CP or any other party. That is not a part of his professional sphere of interest, and I am satisfied that he did not do so.

What happened, however? I have here in my hand a large pamphlet which was distributed in connection with a protest meeting. The caption reads: “Protesvergadering, ketterjag—Hoërskool Hendrik Verwoerd”. That hon member also said here yesterday that there was a meeting at which 300 parents of the Hendrik Verwoerd High School got together to express their views. However, that hon member knows that it was not only a meeting of the parents at that school; he knows that all the CP’s fellow travellers were welcome at that school.

Mossie van den Berg!

He knows that many people were present there who were not parents of the school, but now they are using words like “ketterjag”, and “baie van ons kinders is aan ’n proses van moordende ondervragings onderwerp, in ’n verwoede poging …” That hon member is allowing himself to be misled! He is a responsible hon member of this House, and now he is allowing himself to be misled into believing these things and he is whining about them here.

Further on in this pamphlet it is stated: “… om ’n voorbeeld gemaak te word ter intimidasie van elke onderwyser.” They say: “U het ongetwyfeld ook verneem van die taamlike abrupte beëindiging van die onderhawige ondersoek.” Mention is made here of a “kwaadwillige ketterjag”, and I can continue in this vein. Allow me to say that this department, as well as the Transvaal Director of Education, took steps in terms of the ordinance, and if a complaint is submitted about a specific offence or a suspected offence by a teacher—I am repeating this today—then we must investigate the complaint in terms of the ordinance.

A committee of enquiry was appointed, and after the committee of enquiry had completed its work, it naturally—as befits a decent Department of Education—went back and sent its chief superintendent to the school to tell them that the work had been completed and that they should carry on with their work. The committee of enquiry’s recommendations were then considered, and the Director of Education decided that a complaint would be lodged and that complaint was lodged, as was professionally proper. It was delivered to the headmaster. Does the hon member want us to wash this dirty linen in public? Does the hon member want us to attack and denigrate the headmaster publicly before the complaint has been proved? We did not do this. We did this in a professional way, on the basis of the ordinance, and delivered it to his home.

[Inaudible.]

He lodged an appeal, and in terms of the ordinance … I heard the hon member for Bethal use the words “bekend maak”. He is a lawyer.

After he had lodged an appeal, a committee of enquiry was appointed in terms of the ordinance, and the committee of enquiry undertook its investigation in terms of the ordinance.

The result of that enquiry is not yet known, and because that matter is sub judice I refuse to elaborate on it, except to say that this is unbelievable suspicion-mongering to the detriment of the teaching profession, and I appeal to the hon member for Brits as that party’s chief spokesman on education to cut this out. If he wants to serve education he can do so in a decent way—not in this way.

It is a crying shame! [Interjections.]

What about Vredendal’s school bus?

In conclusion I want to say that this matter was dealt with in accordance with the prescriptions of the ordinance and regulations.

What about Vredendal’s school bus?

I want to say that it was done in an entirely professional and proper manner. There was no question of a three-hour interrogation of school-children. There was no question of their first being asked whether their parents were members of the CP, HNP or whatever. No motive other than the interests of education was served.

The hon member also asked me about Mr H M O Kloppers of the Sanddrift Primary School who was alleged to have acted as an election agent. I want to reply to that. The complaint was investigated, and it was found that he was legally appointed, and that the education ordinance did not prohibit this. The hon member must go and read the education ordinance!

He therefore did not defend a party-political standpoint?

I say that the education ordinance does not prohibit this. Evidence was given that he did not do this in his capacity as headmaster or teacher or abuse his position.

Reference was also made to the Winburg head-master, Mr J A N Volschenk. The matter was investigated in terms of the relevant ordinance. Mr Volschenk admitted guilt and he was warned. The Free State Director of Education dealt with the matter in accordance with the ordinance. We are not hiding anything. After all, we have nothing to hide. I have said before that when a teacher contravenes the ordinance, irrespective of whether he is a member of the CP, the HNP, the NP or the PFP, we have to take steps in accordance with the ordinance.

The hon member for Brits—I shall conclude my speech with this—also …

Hear, hear!

Yes, the hon member can go ahead and shout “hear, hear!” I think he is getting hurt. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Brits made a terrible fuss here about so-called multiracial recreation camps which were being offered by the schools, and which were apparently nothing but intimidation camps. What are the facts? These so-called multicultural recreation camps to which the hon member referred are not even a school activity. They are presented by an extramural organisation. What is more, participation is voluntarily and takes place with the written permission of the parents of the children concerned.

It is propagated by the headmaster! [Interjections.]

Why is the hon member reprimanding us about this? All he is trying to do is play a petty party-political game.

You approve of it!

Oh, really, I think the hon member should behave with greater responsibility than that! [Interjections.]

The hon member spoke about teachers serving on city councils. We have made it quite clear in this House, and also by means of a statement, that in terms of the ordinances a teacher may apply for permission to make himself eligible for election to a city council. Steps will be taken in terms of that ordinance. The ordinance is very clear on this. My request to the respective directors of education was that when a person applied to stand in a city council election, this had to be assessed in terms of the conditions laid down in the ordinance and that permission should only be withheld if it was done for professional reasons. When a teacher wants to stand in an election he is entitled to do so. The provisions of the ordinance must nevertheless be pointed out to him. It is then up to the teacher to decide for himself whether he can adhere to the provisions of the ordinance—an ordinance which has, after all, existed for decades now. In this case what applies to the CP also applies to the NP, the PFP and any other party.

I asked that owing to the sensitivity and the intensity of politics, this matter should be decided by and with teachers. The teacher is nevertheless entitled to do this. Yesterday I asked the hon member whether he wanted to deprive teachers of their civil rights.

You are depriving them!

No, I want to hear this from the hon member. Do they want to deprive teachers of their civil rights? [Interjections.] That hon member is arguing that we should not do this to the teachers; that we should take specific policy decisions here and not allow any power at all to devolve downwards. Therefore we must totally disregard the principle of the devolution of power. When we take certain specific decisions here, is that hon member, in terms of his own argument, prepared to justify every decision we take here to his own group? Surely this is a ridiculous argument. The fact of the matter is that we have a specific policy. In that policy devolution of power takes place in which the schools, their management boards and headmasters have a share.

May he vote on the city council?

That hon member has so much to say about this now. Here in my hand I have the CP’s nomination forms. They use these forms. It is simply astounding! The third paragraph in this document reads:

Hear, hear!

Very well! That is quite in order! There is no problem with that. The fourth paragraph reads as follows:

The fifth paragraph reads as follows:

Is there not an AWB form too?

And what about a Broederbond form? [Interjections.]

Now there are also teachers—CP teachers—who must sign this form and indicate that they are going to stand for election as unofficial candidates. Yet they are committing themselves to what appears on this form. They are committing themselves to promoting the politics of the CP in the city council.

[Inaudible.]

No, I do not have a problem with that. I am simply pointing out the hon member’s hypocrisy. [Interjections.] That is what I am pointing out. He comes here and makes a big fuss about these matters. In the meanwhile they are propagating and doing this themselves. I simply do not like this. Let us be frank with on another in this regard. [Interjections.]

There is one more thing I want to say to the hon member. I thank him for bringing it to my attention that there was a difference between the English and Afrikaans texts in my reply to a question on 28 March. I apologise for the oversight, and I shall rectify this matter in a letter to him and to the secretariate.

You thought he would not notice!

What about the Vredendal school bus? [Interjections.]

As regards the hon member for Potgietersrus, I simply want to say that compulsory tuition fees are a sensitive matter, and are at present being investigated. I am not prepared simply to take random decisions on such a sensitive matter until we have researched it in depth and as widely as possible.

This is going to cost you votes!

The results of the investigation will be followed by a complete consultation with the partners, after which we shall take a decision. If we decide that it is in the best interests of education, it will not matter who is against us. Whether or not we lose votes, we shall take a decision in the best interests of education.

The hon member also referred to private schools.

What about the bus?

In terms of the act every school must be registered. I am aware that there are private schools which are not registered at present, and I am investigating that matter. In the second place, a question was asked about the Nest school. No Nest school is getting a cent from the education department.

As regards the hon member for Potgietersrus, I want to conclude …

The bus too!

… by saying that the hon member again tried to suggest that there was no such thing as own education, and that everyone was deciding for everyone. The hon member knows that this is not true. He knows that we have own education for the Whites, Coloureds, Indians and Blacks, but I want to ask him a question. If the CP were to implement their policy and were to succeed in having entirely White, Coloured, Indian and Black schools, who would pay for those schools in this area? In terms of their policy are those hon members going to allow those Black or Coloured schools to maintain a specific standard or issue a certain certificate which are unrelated to those of the White schools, while the products of those schools will all be in the same labour market? Do the hon members not recognise that there is a community of interests with regard to all education in this country? This is, after all, true. It is ridiculous for the hon member to intimate that all we have here is a conglomeration of totally integrated education. Surely that is not true.

You missed the bus!

Order! Before I put the question, I want to draw the attention of hon members to the fact that the Rules make no provision at all for interjections. Interjections are at all times allowed at the discretion of the presiding officer. However, hon members in the Committee have got into the habit of constantly interjecting and commenting on everything that is said by the hon member who is speaking. In the course of the hon the Minister’s speech the hon member for Overvaal interjected or commented out loud 15 times. The hon member for Lichtenburg did so six times, the hon member for Carletonville five times, the hon member for Losberg four times, the hon member for Brits three times and other hon members did so less frequently. I think this is too much. No one wants to prohibit interjections entirely, but we cannot carry on like this. I do not intend to carry on like this. Hon members will have to curtail their interjections and comments drastically.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Because the Official Opposition’s benches are so close to the Chair, when we make comments which are intended for the ears of our colleagues … [Interjections.] … it frequently happens that the presiding officer also hears them. However, when hon members on that side address similar remarks to their colleagues the presiding officer will not hear them. In the circumstances I respectfully suggest that at least half of the 15 comments which you allege I made were intended for the ears of my colleagues and not for your ears, Sir. [Interjections.]

Order! First I want to react to the point of order. The hon member for Overvaal is correct when he says that the Official Opposition sits near the Chair and can therefore be heard better. However, the interjections and comments I referred to were not of the kind the hon member referred to; they were said out loud across the floor of the Committee and there could be no doubt as to whose ears they were intended for.

Mr Chairman, I thank you for the ruling you have given, because it cuts both ways of course. I want to concede at once that while the hon member for Brits was speaking yesterday, hon members in the Government benches made a continuous stream of insufferable interjections. I therefore thank you for your ruling.

We expected the vehement reaction of the hon the Minister. As hon members know, we have already seen how, ever since this Government discovered that the White voters of South Africa were rejecting it at the polls, it has reacted vehemently and acrimoniously, as the hon the Minister did yesterday and this morning, whenever a contentious issue is raised and dealt with in the interest of the voters by this side of the House in the course of debates.

The hon the Minister said inter alia that the hon member for Brits’ speech was scandalous because, according to him, it was an attack on the Department of Education and Culture and, by implication on the teachers as well. That just goes to show how nervous and apprehensive this hon Minister has become, because after all, when one looks at what the hon member for Brits actually said, these allegations are utter nonsense. What the hon member for Brits is concerned with is precisely the reprehensible treatment of teachers. In fact, the complaints which the hon member for Brits has received were made by a large number of teachers. Now the hon the Minister is attempting to create conflict between the hon member for Brits and his party, and the organised teaching fraternity. If the hon the Minister wishes to speak about reprehensibleness, that is precisely what we call reprehensible.

In addition, large numbers of parents have lodged complaints in regard to the specific matters that were raised by the hon member for Brits. It is noteworthy that the hon the Minister shied away from mentioning cases of people who had promoted the cause of the NP within the school environment. The CP wants to know why. We have a very good idea why, but we request the hon the Minister to respond to this. We shall afford him another opportunity to do so.

He went on to assert that the hon members for Brits and Potgietersrus had not taken the trouble to arrange to be present for his reply. What nonsense! What absolute rubbish! That is precisely the reason why the hon members for Brits and Potgietersrus informed him in writing before the debate—before the hon the Minister had made his initial speech—that they would not be present in the House. Surely those are not the actions of people who do not take the trouble to be in the House or of people who want to run away. It was done precisely to afford the hon the Minister an opportunity to react to the things they would say. Those are the actions of people with self-respect and with the necessary courage—something of which there is unfortunately far too little in the Government benches these days.

I shall deal with the various matters in the order in which the hon the Minister did so, although it is unfortunately a little muddled. I know he was a little nervous, and I shall therefore unfortunately have to follow the same pattern in order to adhere to his chronology.

He said that the increase in the number of coloured pupils and the decrease in the number of White pupils had necessitated the difference between the various appropriations. After all we know that there are such things as inflation and we know that there are such things as progress, and that the resources with which one must equip schools—even if there is a reduction in the number of scholars—therefore become more expensive. We stand by that.

Our charge against the hon the Minister and his Government is that they are reducing the resources which are essential for the proper education of the Whites in this country. Not all the teachers who are complaining to us can be wrong. They live with this situation daily.

The hon the Minister went on to assert in his response to the speech of the hon member for Potgietersrus that the allocation formula in the budget had not yet been tested. Now we simply ask: Does the hon the Minister wish to assert, all these years after the formula was introduced for the first time—the hon the Minister knows that that was approximately two years ago—that the formula has not yet been tested? In that case we want to say that that hon Minister and his Government must immediately resign because they are incapable of even working out a formula for a budget, something which ought to be very simple. That is, in any event, what they have informed the voters. After all, they have told the voters that this is for the good of reform. They say that this system of own and general affairs is a far better system with a budget in which the Whites make up but one of the aspects of the total education budget.

The hon the Minister went on to ask whether, if he were to have his way and the Government were to lay down a policy in regard to education, the hon member for Brits would then go out and propagate outside the House that everyone should resign themselves to the policy of the Government. Once again I want to say: What nonsense! This hon Minister is sitting in this Committee as a politician and he dares to ask such a question. Surely he knows that that is why he is sitting in those benches and the hon member for Brits is sitting on this side, in these benches. The point is—this is what the hon the Minister is missing, or alternatively what he understands but is attempting to explain away—that we say that this Government, and every government worth its salt ought to accept responsibility for its actions. That is not what this Government is doing. All the responsibility which this Government ought to accept, at every level of government, is now being devolved as standard practice to other bodies so that they must accept the responsibility for the policy of the Government. [Interjections.] If the Government wishes to prescribe integration for the schools, it must do so. However, it should be brave enough to stand up and lay down the policy for integration. It should not leave it to control bodies that can be infiltrated by NP members and which can introduce integration to the schools in an indirect manner through the back door. [Interjections.]

In his comments here this morning the hon the Minister said we should keep party politics out of the classroom; that we should not politicise education and that we should not attempt to score political points off one another. He told the hon member for Brits all this as if it were a justifiable reaction to the standpoint which the hon member for Brits had adopted. The irony of the matter—the hon the Minister knows this—is that the hon member for Brits agrees with that statement. That is precisely why he delivered his speech in the way he did. However, this hon Minister comes along a day later and attempts to create the impression that that was not the thrust and the basis of the hon member for Brits’ argument. What is the hon the Minister trying to do? He is attempting score some political points. He is imputing something to the hon member for Brits which does not exist.

The hon the Minister went on to argue that one cannot manage education independently of the Constitution. He said this with reference to the so-called politicisation of education. What a farfetched standpoint! That is not what this debate is about. The Constitution is one thing but the politicisation with which the hon member for Brits is charging the hon the Minister and the Government is something entirely different. In spite of the Constitution and in spite of the fact that he is telling the voters of South Africa that own affairs are guaranteed and that White education will be protected, the hon the Minister is in numerous cases permitting people to introduce party politics into daily school activities.

In this regard we are still waiting for an answer from the hon the Minister in respect of the specific cases which the hon member for Brits mentioned to him. He raised the question here of the lengthy interrogation of schoolchildren at the Hendrik Verwoerd High School. We have not yet received an answer from the hon the Minister. We want to know when he is going to give us an answer in that regard.

The other matter that was raised, related to the advertisement at the Vredendal High School with regard to a so-called youth rally. It subsequently turned out to be nothing but a Government jubilee and a political function of the NP, and it was also apparent that misuse had been made of certain staff members. [Interjections.] There was no reaction to that. Why not?

The hon member for Brits also made mention of the teacher at the Witteberg High School who had discussed a certain right-wing organisation in a negative light. There is something very interesting about this. Let us compare it to the questionnaire that was distributed to children at the Hendrik Verwoerd High School at the time of the investigation against the school principal. I have a copy of it here in my hand. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is very difficult to speak after an hon member who has delivered a speech here in the House in which absolutely no positive contribution was made to this particular debate. From the beginning it was a justification of certain standpoints which rested on specific premises. However, these premises have by no means yet been proved; they were actually plucked out of the air to suit a particular ideology. What, then, can one say? There is a specific law, just as there is Parkinson’s Law, which does not have a name yet—we could, however, give it a name and call it Cronjé’s Law or Van der Merwe’s Law or whatever—which dictates that the levels of incompetence and ignorance are in direct relation to the amount of noise that is made. [Interjections.] I think we have had a very good demonstration from the CP in this debate of the validity of that law. I shall leave the matter at that, because there is nothing whatsoever to which one could make a meaningful reply.

This morning I want to talk about the whole problem regarding the concept of “rationalisation”, which has actually become something of a scare story. Now that cut-backs are the order of the day, rationalisation has become a sort of scare story and it is a fact that it has now actually become synonymous with cut backs, reductions and inefficiency. I think this deserves a little attention. I think we should ascertain what rationalisation means. The root of the word is ratio, which means reason. Rationalisation therefore means rendering reasonable; in other words making something reasonable or responsible. Therefore, if one were to be engaged in rationalisation in something like education, specific matters must be taken into account, namely what one envisages, and secondly what the parameters are within which one will attain these objectives. This is something which is done on an ongoing basis in the private sector. However, it must also be done on a continuous basis with regard to every function with which the Government is dealing, because the funds, the basic resources involved, are not unlimited; they have never been unlimited. Perhaps they were once more plentiful than they are at present. The fact is, it is the duty of the Government as the agent of the community that has elected it, to ensure that that which it does at the behest of the community is done in the most efficient manner.

When we come to rationalisation it means that we shall have to look at education and realise that history has followed a specific course. Let us say that in this specific course of history a fair amount of woolliness was accumulated which may be termed luxuries. We must now get rid of that woolliness. The complaint which frequently arises is that there is no longer as much money available for this, that or the other. In this regard I am thinking particularly of the type of luxuries to which we have become accustomed and which we have already begun to accept as necessities, or things which are actually more like status symbols in education. It is a fact today that the school with the most computers enjoys the highest status. It is the “in” school, the good school, regardless of what is done with those computers. I should like to talk one day about the whole question of over-estimating the value of so-called aids, and particularly the electronic aids in schools.

Basic education requires a good teacher, a blackboard and chalk and perhaps also a cane hidden away in a cupboard somewhere, and then one can provide good education. That is what the community expects from us, because the community expects the school to cultivate certain basic aptitudes and attitudes in the child which collectively may be termed a world view. Secondly it is expected that specific basic skills and the mastery of particular basic techniques will be taught to the child. That is what is expected from the schools. The material with which the school works consists of all the children in a community.

When it comes to tertiary education things are a little different. Not all the potential candidates for tertiary education can be accommodated. The community has a specific need to accommodate these people who have received tertiary education. If universities were to come along and say that they wanted to establish further training facilities in various places, they would put forward a strong case for doing so. They would put forward a strong case in favour of doing so due to the fact that there are so many candidates who could follow those courses of study, without any consideration being given to whether that community is able to accommodate those people who have completed their studies.

The situation at the tertiary level today is not merely attributable to a deliberate over-planning of universities. It is a matter which has been occasioned partly by circumstances. Hon members will know that universities grew at a tremendous rate during the sixties. Moreover, all sorts of courses were offered which did not, in the final analysis, belong at universities, because there was no other type of tertiary education apart from teachers’ training and that provided at the universities.

As a result universities grew at a tremendous rate. This actually made planning superfluous to a large extent, because in a situation of growth one normally grows out of one’s problems. If errors of judgment have been made, these errors of judgment are cancelled out to an increasing extent by the benefits derived from growth.

This sort of thing simply cannot continue because from the point of view of the authorities as well as the universities, it would be irresponsible. It is gratifying to note that universities realise this. For example, I want to quote to hon members something which Prof Smit of the University of Pretoria said in a lecture and which serves as an indication of the fact that the universities are aware of this position. He said that things could not go on in this way because:

That is where we are headed with White education. For example, according to the CUP Report—it has not yet officially been accepted and therefore it may not yet be quoted from—we have 29 Whites per thousand attending university in our community, whilst in Great Britain, for example, the figure is seven per thousand. This means that there is a total over-production of Whites at universities if we can compare this figure to that of a First World country. Of course, we are not altogether a First World country and therefore to a large extent the Whites still have to provide the total leadership manpower of this country.

That does not mean that that figure of 29 per thousand is justified by this. I think it is still far too high. If we were to make it 20, it would be more reasonable, because hon members must remember that if we have to supply the leadership potential from the ranks of the Whites, that still does not mean that we can have the same sort of ratio between leaders and the members of the community as a First World country has.

It is therefore a fact that we shall have to be a little careful as far as this aspect is concerned. We must accept that there are too many students at universities. We must also accept that certain courses are being offered by universities which do not belong there. In that respect co-operation agreements will have to be reached between universities and technikons.

It is a simple fact that we have two institutions which are a mile—pardon me, a kilometre—apart, and that those two institutions are offering precisely the same course. One is offering it as a degree course and the other as a diploma course. There is thus a duplication of manpower, courses and facilities, and the one product is precisely the same as the other, apart from the fact that the one entails a degree certificate and the other a diploma.

I can quote hon members an example of this. In certain of the building sciences courses are being offered at universities and technikons of which the syllabuses are word for word the same. There is also a tremendous amount of duplication in respect of teachers’ training. I wonder whether there should not be a greater degree of co-operation between universities and colleges of education, so that the colleges of education could have a greater share in the professional-technical training of teachers at universities, instead of the universities providing the professional-technical training for high school teachers whilst right next door there is a college of education which is providing primary school teachers with precisely the same training. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I am pleased that both the hon member for Walmer who has just spoken and the hon the Minister who spoke earlier, delivered speeches on the subject of rationalisation, duplication and the use of taxpayers’ money, because it is a topic which I also wish to address this morning.

In particular I wish to speak on the subject of White teacher training colleges and I am pleased that the hon the Minister also addressed the subject this morning. First of all, I want to look at the factual position at present in terms of statistics. Even after closing some teacher training colleges in recent years the position is as follows this year: The White teacher training colleges have a capacity of 12 900 students. The enrolment figure is 8 624 which leaves 4 276 empty places at those colleges. These places are left unfilled, and qualified applicants are turned away because there is a surplus of teachers in White education. For example, over and above those teachers who may have left the teaching profession of their own accord, in 1987 alone, 333 teachers in White Government schools were made redundant. Over the next 10 years more than 4 000 teaching posts in White schools will be made redundant and the talents of many qualified and experienced teachers will be lost.

In stark contrast to White school education is Black school education. There is a battle to train enough teachers to reduce the pupil : teacher ratio. Because of financial shortfalls a slightly abnormal situation has arisen with regard to certain aspects this year, but in general that is a major, if not the major, challenge of Black education. At the same time there is a severe shortage of teacher training facilities and a critical lack of teacher expertise in many key subjects.

In the speech he made yesterday the hon the Minister said amongst other things:

Further on on the same page he said:

I would like to ask the hon the Minister today why the Government does not allow Black student teachers to fill the empty places at the White teacher training colleges. It would make a significant difference. This year there are 8 767 student teachers at Black teacher training colleges. If one fills the empty places at the White colleges one would increase the number of Black student teachers by 49% immediately and without any capital cost. Would this cut across Government policy or threaten the identity of White teachers or pupils? The hon the Minister has addressed himself to this problem to some extent this morning and I listened to what he said.

He talks about groups very frequently but when he is talking about groups, I think he will concede that he is in fact talking about skin-colour groups. That is the categorisation he is talking of in that context. He also often talks about culture and language, but where does the Coloured group fit in then?

In the past, were we prepared to allow them in when they had the shortages? No, we were not prepared to do it. In that case it therefore had nothing to do with language or religion or culture as such. It was simply a skin colour classification.

The hon the Minister has also talked about primary school and mother-tongue education. I do not wish to debate that; I do not even necessarily disagree with most of what he said on that subject, but the fact is that in more than half of even the primary school years teaching in Black schools is done, not in the mother tongue, but in one of the official languages of this country. When we talk about training primary school teachers from Std 2 onwards, they are not going to be teaching in the mother tongue, and that particular point therefore does not apply. Clearly, if the teacher is a Black person whose mother tongue was one of the African languages and whose culture emanates from that background, the teacher is going to be perfectly capable of instilling those values, in addition to the other things that the children are taught at school.

Let us, however, look at the current position, even in terms of the Government’s own thinking. According to the Constitution, education is an own affair at all levels, but what is the reality? Firstly, there are thousands of Black students at so-called White universities, including the Afrikaans universities. Black students are in many different faculties and in university residences, even at some of the Afrikaans universities. Black student teachers are training in education departments together with Whites, and furthermore—the hon the Minister knows this—Black and White student teachers are doing their teaching practice in both Black and White schools, and non-racial schools, without any problems. That is the current position under that hon Minister’s dispensation. One would therefore hardly even be breaking new ground, but one would be providing a real service and at the same time contributing to better race relations.

The hon the Minister yesterday correctly pointed out that isolation is in nobody’s interests; that contact can contribute to better understanding and respect. That is what the hon the Minister correctly pointed out yesterday.

Opening up White teacher training colleges would do all this, without endangering anyone’s identity; on the contrary, it would make the Whites better teachers—teachers with more appreciation of the needs and aspirations of all South Africans, and better able to promote the necessary contact that is essential for the pupils they are going to teach.

What about the language problem? I have addressed it partly already. I believe this problem would be no different from those which may be experienced by universities and technikons, and can be successfully overcome where it arises. In fact, one of the greatest advantages of opening the White teacher training colleges would be the contribution that they can make to improving the teaching of English and Afrikaans in Black schools. At present, inadequacy in English and Afrikaans is a major stumbling block hindering the progress of hundreds of thousands of Black schoolchildren. In many cases, both the teachers and the pupils struggle to cope with English and Afrikaans, often to the extent that the pupils are effectively taught in a “foreign” language by teachers teaching in a language which is “foreign” to them.

Looking at the monetary side, Mr Chairman, the cost saving could be enormous. The Pretoriase Onderwyskollege has cost about R40 000 per student place to build. The empty places in White colleges means that capital assets at a current market value of about R170 million are going to waste.

Standing empty!

There is a shortage of money for everything, including education, and it is irresponsible to allow much-needed facilities to stand empty.

Hear, hear!

I appeal to the hon the Minister to allow the White teacher training colleges to open their doors to other races.

Did you listen this morning?

In doing so, he will be doing a service to all education and to race relations in this country. … I did listen and I have responded, but the hon member for Langlaagte was either asleep or too dumb to understand.

The hon the Minister will not only be doing that, but I believe he will also be helping the White teachers and pupils whom he is obliged to look after.

Finally, let me make a brief remark in relation to the teaching of African languages in White schools. One has the situation now in which something like 290 000 pupils are studying these languages, including between 700 and 800 doing so at matric level. The hon the Minister has conceded that someone who teaches his mother tongue can usually do so better than a non-mother-tongue speaker.

The hon the Minister has also conceded that cultural contact is desirable. In White schools Germans can teach German, French can teach French and so forth. I ask the hon the Minister why Xhosas cannot teach Xhosa in White schools. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I will not react to the hon member for Cape Town Gardens. I am sure the hon the Minister will deal adequately with the matters he raised. In any case, yesterday the PFP took such heavy body blows from the hon member for Umhlatuzana that I feel quite sorry for them. Their problem is that they have little or no defence. [Interjections.]

*Mr Chairman, no one will deny that education is a complex concept. This is especially the case in a country such as South Africa with its diverse cultural groups and educational aspirations. If the process of adjustment and growth is to continue in a purposeful and co-ordinated manner, it is essential that each of the various education departments in the country—provincial as well as national—should have a clear picture of what it stands for, what it wishes to achieve and how it is to function within the context of the nation.

†Mr Chairman, healthy communication is important for the various structured provincial and national management teams. It is no less important for other groups to play a major role in determining our educational goals and strategies—notably the parents’ communities and the teachers’ societies. It is the opinion of many that far too much emphasis is being placed on the matter of differences between these groups and far too little on the value of balance. We may be English or Afrikaans speaking; we may be politically left or right or even centre, floating on high like the NDM, the Nondescript Movement, but be that as it may, parents, teachers and all those interested in education agree that what we really want for our youth, White, Brown and Black, is an education which will prepare our youth for the realities of the 21st century without isolating them from traditions that have provided stability and direction in the past.

This can be done provided they are not stifled by the rhetoric of those who have non-educational objectives and who have political axes to grind, as we have heard notably from the CP benches today.

In Natal, the Natal Teachers’ Society and the Natalse Onderwysersunie have a dual role—professional and educational. The hon member for Durban North need not worry. I am not going to attack them on this because they are already busy hanging themselves.

It is their business!

Those organisations are there to achieve the same objective and that is to ensure that education meets the demands of the future. It is pleasing to observe that as of late they have been working far more closely together than before in this direction. Let us hope, for the sake of our most valuable asset—our youth and their future—that they will continue to do so. With the spirit of objectivity that is required and the responsibility that has been shown recently in the salary representations by the Teachers’ Federal Council we have hope that they will be able to work together.

A matter that has been of great concern to me, and I am sure to many, has been the preparedness of our youth for and the cost-effectiveness of their entering tertiary education institutions. I believe that to understand what preparedness for tertiary education means one should know what universities, technikons and teachers’ training colleges regard as their mission and task. According to the 1987 report of the Committee of University Principals, entitled “Macro aspects of the university within the context of tertiary education in the RSA”, one of the important guidelines for universities in the future should be that a university education will be accessible to one who commands the required capacity, talent and interest.

Of course, however, the number of students has to be determined by financial constraints—these are a major factor today—and the manpower requirements that universities should attempt to meet. The ideal of academic excellence is to be neither surrendered nor lowered. The same guidelines should apply to technikons and also to teacher training colleges.

However, what do universities, technikons and teacher training colleges expect of prospective students? I think it is expected that students should be ready and prepared for their tertiary studies in the following respects.

Academically, there is general consensus that high scholastic achievement is still the best indicator of a student’s ability to benefit from tertiary education. The criterion has been high marks in the matriculation examination, but this is not enough. It is believed that the prospective student should have reading skills, study skills such as knowing how to use a library effectively and efficiently, problem-solving and goal-setting skills and a knowledge of mnemonic techniques.

Morally and ethically, students should be prepared to cope with freedom from the external discipline to which they were accustomed at school. In other words they should be ready to exchange external discipline for internal self-discipline. I think the failure rate indicates that this is very important. According to the CUP report, the emphasis in future will be rather on independent learning by students than on teaching by lecturers.

However, what can be done to ensure that prospective students are prepared? According to the CUP report, it is clear that the responsibility for assisting first-year students to cope with these problems is partly that of the school, in some cases that of both the school and the university and, in other cases, that of the university. In fact, support services are provided at most universities and technikons. In addition, all the provincial education departments have auxiliary services which offer vocational guidance and psychological assistance to pupils. This is supplemented by courses in youth preparedness.

I think the role played by the SADF in preparing young men for tertiary education should not be overlooked. The emphasis in the SADF is not, of course, on academic preparedness but rather on ethical and moral preparedness, by means of young leaders’ and candidate officers’ courses.

A good deal has been said and written about the so-called crippling cuts in subsidies to universities. The University of Natal claims to have suffered a 25% cut, or a total reduction of R26,1 million, for the 1988 year. While this may well be the case—there may have been a cut in the amount budgeted for, or which they had claimed and were hoping to get—universities should have a closer look at the Estimates of Expenditure of the House of Assembly, which show a 9,5% increase in the amount provided as financial assistance towards the recurrent expenditure of our 11 universities. This increase of R68,805 million is not to be sneezed at. It is also worth noting that the increase for recurrent expenditure from 1986-87 to 1987-88 was 20,1%.

I think that the university has based its claim to have suffered cuts on the amount it had hoped for. This is unfortunate, but with this has come a dramatic increase in university fees of almost 30% since last year. It is true that this is going to bring hardship to many, but it is pleasing that the University of Natal recognises the necessity of financial discipline and a greater need for contributions from private and business donors.

In the April newsletter of the Convocation of the University of Natal, I note that the bulk of the income—R85 million, or 70%—for what they call their austerity budget of R123 million is a contribution in the form of a State subsidy. Furthermore, an appeal is made in that newsletter for the support of the community. Every person has a stake in the future of South Africa. There is no doubt that greater support from the community at large is a move in the right direction.

In the reduction of expenditure certain cuts, for example in the purchase of library books and periodicals, are essential. I find it most disturbing, but the comments in the newsletter on the fact that cutting services and supplies by R1,3 million will entail a general economy drive in all aspects of departmental administration indicate a welcome trend in universities towards stricter financial control which might have been lacking in the past.

Finally, there has been a perception in the mind of the ordinary man in the street that a university education is the preserve of the wealthy. This is no longer the case, with bursaries, scholarships and loans now being available to those of intellectual ability who were denied this opportunity in the past.

One thing is for certain; despite financial constraints, we must continue to direct our efforts towards the maintenance of the highest academic standards consistent with those set by the international fraternity of universities, and on no account are our standards to be lowered. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman I am pleased to follow the hon member for Pietermaritzburg South and in the course of my speech I shall link up with certain of the viewpoints he expressed.

When one sits here and listens to the debate, particularly to the debate that is taking place during this session, it is remarkable to note how speedily political reform is taking place in this country. It is also remarkable how skilfully some hon members are weaving party politics into this debate on the Education and Culture Vote in order to land a sneaky blow or two.

Education is by its very nature accustomed to reform; that includes political reform. Of course, objections are raised whenever reform is brought into play for party-political gain. When one looks at reform in education one realises that it is not a new concept. It is not only political reform that is at issue; we also talk about and can see how social and economic reforms are being introduced in education. When one looks at the attempts to anglicise education at the beginning of this century, one sees very clearly that this was a political game. One could also indicate in this manner how reform has further influenced education. One could indicate the effect of social reform in the same manner, or show how the economy has influenced education. However, I cannot mention all the examples in the limited time at my disposal. Somewhere, however, one reaches a point at which one sees that education has remained intact because it is willing and able to reform and to adapt itself to the demands of the day.

In this regard I want to take hon members back to the emergence of special schools. I am not referring to schools for special education. There is such a special school in my constituency, namely Marlandia. The school does excellent work. The staff and the principal really are exceptionally community-orientated in their whole approach. The school is prominent in its participation in the community’s activities but there is a restrictive aspect which troubles me somewhat in regard to this specific type of education.

Let me say at once that I do not have a magical formula or an instant solution to the problem. I can only identify the problem in my own humble way and possibly make one or two recommendations as to how the problem should be addressed. It has occurred to me that in this time of recession, or of a downward phase of the business cycle, those people in a particular group who become unemployed are the ones who are chiefly reliant on performing manual labour. It is unfortunate that they are always the first to be affected by such recessions, whenever the economy slows down.

These people who, for example, complete their training at these special schools acquire a very good basic skill during the period they spend there. By the way, they normally begin at the age of 12 and in terms of the Act in question they are, of course, of schoolgoing age until the age of 20, although most of them probably complete their school career by the age of approximately 17.

However, what I find remarkable in this regard, is the fact that the type of manual skills that are taught there are no longer relevant to the needs of the community concerned. For example, when we look at an industry such as furniture manufacturing we see that the average White person is no longer being accommodated in that industry. In the case of the welder, too, we see that someone who is not qualified and who may perhaps attempt to weld, finds it difficult to make a living in that industry. It is also very difficult for a young man to gain a foothold in the panelbeating industry because he cannot become an apprentice if he comes from such a special school.

This is also a problem to the young ladies of that school. In some cases their future basically lies in finding employment in the hairdressing industry, but this is very difficult.

I know it is an expensive process and that it is not easy to change education in one fell swoop in order to meet the needs of the community. However, when one thinks of the security industry, which is expanding at a tremendous rate in this country at this stage due to specific circumstances—although it will not return to another status in this country—I see that many of these young men and women could make a fine future for themselves in this industry provided that they are able to compete with others and provided that they are equipped to enter that industry amidst the very strong competition prevailing there. What I am asking, therefore, is whether it is not possible, for example, to give instruction in the driving of motor vehicles at such a school.

As I see it, whenever people are employed, those who possess a specific class of driver’s licence and who have experience in that field could very easily be placed in a temporary position. When such a person has no qualification or when someone has an academic qualification that is not readily accepted by employers, it is very difficult to be placed in a job. If one were willing to incur the costs, then with the help of the community and specific institutions within the community one could, for example, offer such a training course which would then make this school really special—special in the sense that specific provision would be made for the job in which that pupil would be employed in the future.

There is a long period during which those people could be properly trained in many facets of industries to acquire specific skills such as the driving of a motor vehicle, whether it be a heavy duty vehicle, an extra heavy duty vehicle, a light motor vehicle, or even a motorcycle. They would be able to make a living in such an industry. Has the time not perhaps arrived for us, with the assistance of the Department of Manpower, to consider incorporating this specific sort of training into the manpower training projects? The Department of Manpower identifies specific needs and has certain means at its disposal.

Allow me to add that I do not think that this onus and obligation should be placed on the school. The school already has a very full training programme. I do not believe it is up to the teaching staff to deal with this additional responsibility as well.

I am certain that with a real team effort on the part of organised education, the community and the Department of Manpower, it will be possible, in a meaningful way, to give these people a firm foothold in the life that lies ahead of them.

Mr Chairman, I take pleasure in following that hon member. I am not wearing my red rose, but I am told that the 1981 group arrived here seven years ago today.

I wish to discuss a few matters with the hon the Minister. The first matter deals with the question of bursaries for students. In my constituency I have on several occasions come across parents who sent their children to a university or a college to qualify as teachers, and because the parents paid for the students themselves, those students could not get posts. I was shown a letter sent to one of the students. It stated that because the student did not have a bursary, no post was available. Of course we also came across the reverse of this. How many students who can afford to pay for themselves apply for bursaries simply because in this way they assure themselves of a post? I really do not believe we can afford to give bursaries to people because they are then assured of a post. It seems to me that the criterion that a good teacher should be placed in a post no longer applies, but that it depends on whether or not a person has a bursary. In the long run it makes absolutely no difference to the department whether it places a bursary student or a student who does not have a bursary in a post because the students never pay back the real capital amount in any case. In other words, the debt is simply written off, if one wants to put it that way. I therefore think that it will make absolutely no difference financially whether the hon Minister offers a post to a bursary student or to a student without a bursary. I feel that very serious attention should be given to this matter.

A second matter is pre-school or pre-primary education. In my constituency in particular there are quite a number of schools where the parents’ councils have decided that they should like to throw the schools open. I should like to know what the policy of the department is in this regard. People of colour are probably allowed to attend pre-primary schools. Now one should like to know why, if toddlers may go to school together at pre-school level, this is not allowed later? As regards this entire question of the throwing open of schools, I said in a debate earlier this year that own schools for different cultures could in no way ensure that culture would be transposed unchanged. I then referred to the fact that the hon member for Overvaal and I were both taught by the hon member for Gezina, and eventually the difference …

You came after me, man!

The political standpoints of people who come from specific schools simply do not remain steadfast, because on the one hand one has the hon member for Overvaal who is advocating total segregation while on the other one has the hon member for Greytown who believes that all the social forces in South Africa actually lead to an integrated society. Then there is the hon member for Gezina who is still undecided on this matter.

Let us consider what is happening in general. In a publication of Mark- en Meningsopnames we see that between 1982 and now a great “verligtheid” has emerged in society in general. In 1982 in reply to the question as to whether no White schools at all should be thrown open, 48% of all the people asked said they preferred it that way. In 1986 that figure had dropped to 34%. If we examine the difference between the Afrikaans and the English-speaking communities, we find that in the English-speaking community only 121/2% of the people say that no schools should be thrown open. In the Afrikaans-speaking community that figure is already 60%. In other words, 40% of the people say that schools may be thrown open under certain circumstances.

If we examine the other side of the picture, namely people who say that schools should be thrown open conditionally, we find that these people already constitute 36% or 37% of the entire community, and that 23% of the people say that all schools should be thrown open unconditionally in any case. If we again examine the difference between Afrikaans and English-speaking people, we find that 88% of the English-speaking community say that schools may be thrown open either unconditionally or subject to certain provisions. For further information I must just mention that 43% of the English-speaking community already say that all schools should be thrown open under all circumstances.

It would seem to me that this entire matter is leading up to a constitutional crisis, because in the Constitution Act it is stated that an own affair is:

and so on. This must be treated as an own affair. This is stated in section 14, but when we get to section 16, it is stated that should a question arise, the State President shall decide whether somebody is dealing with his own affairs in such a way that this is affecting the own affairs of somebody else. Should this indeed be so, it shall become a general affair. We now see that the department which controls Indian schools is adopting a policy of throwing open all schools. They already have 7 000 children of other races in those schools, of which 18 are White, what is more. The same applies to the House of Representatives, where Mr Ebrahim said that they should admit people of other races on condition of course, that accommodation was available. These two own affairs education departments are therefore organising their education in such a way that it is no longer an own affair to them. As I have said, it therefore seems to me that we have a slight constitutional crisis here and that the State President may have to intervene in this matter.

With these few words I should like to ask the hon Minister to give us a reply on the matter of bursaries and what the policy in this regard is. He must also please reply to my questions on the matter of pre-primary education.

The CP says that the throwing open of schools will lead to total integration, but I maintain that the integration which exists in South Africa in general will result in the eventual throwing open of schools. I think the hon the Minister should not adapt such firm standpoints on these matters either, such as his saying that he will never do something. We have often heard the word “never” from that side and that “never” does not last that long. [Interjections]. I am looking for another quote that I cannot find at the moment … In any case, with regard to the throwing open of group areas, the hon the Minister …

Order! No, group areas are not under discussion now, but I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Greytown touched upon three aspects. The first two he addressed directly to the hon the Minister for reply. In regard to the third aspect, namely the throwing open of schools, he wanted to illustrate on the basis of figures that this was supported by the community. I suggest that the hon member includes that in his next election manifesto so that the voters can pass judgment on that issue. If the hon member’s movement were then to come into office, one would be able to attach some value to that claim.

I actually want to concentrate on the matter of the devolution of authority in education and in the education structure, a matter which was touched upon here by various other hon members. The concept of “parental involvement”, "parental say” and “devolution of authority” have already become general concepts in education. The schools form the nucleus of the provision of education and for several years now opportunities have already existed on the third level for meaningful parental say in the provision of education to their children. School controlling bodies consist primarily of parents and are elected exclusively by the parents of the school concerned. These bodies perform an important advisory role and also make a meaningful contribution.

In order to implement and expand this principle of parental say meaningfully, the respective provincial education councils were brought into existence, the main component of which is the parental community. Among these are parents from the organised statutory and non-statutory parental communities. At this stage this organ is an advisory body providing the hon the Minister with advice on a variety of matters concerning education.

The hon member for Durban North asked for these bodies to have legislative powers as well. I do not think the answer lies there. In view of the fact that the principle of the devolution of authority is generally accepted, I wonder whether consideration should not rather be given to transferring certain defined powers of disposal to these bodies. These bodies do not consist merely of the parental community, but also of senior professional personnel and members of the organised teaching profession. In this way it will be possible to give meaningful effect, in the interests of education, to a true partnership relationship among the respective groups.

I advocate that such devolved authority should be provided in statutory form so that the education council is, in exercising those powers, able to act within permanently defined statutory provisions. As the council develops its skills, such powers can be devolved to a greater extent.

I hold out the prospect of the provincial educational council in due course having the decision-making power to allocate the allotted funds for the provincial education department to the various components providing education in the area served by the council.

This devolved authority I am asking for must not be confused with the powers which the Department of Education and Culture delegated to the respective provincial executive branches of the department for reasons of administrative efficiency and in order to ensure that the provincial ethos was retained.

I am also of the opinion that there ought to be greater devolution of power to the controlling bodies of the respective schools. Up to this stage the local controlling bodies of a school have, besides acting as advisory bodies, acted mainly as the supervisory agent of the department. When I say this I am not ignoring the powers of disposal which school committees do possess. I should rather see an in-depth investigation being instituted into this whole matter to establish what further powers of disposal can meaningfully be devolved to these bodies.

This approach of the maximum meaningful devolution of power without encroaching on the general education policy will have the effect of taking many decisions out of the recognised arenas of active politics, consequently depoliticising them.

I do not think that the parental community ought to be deprived of its right to decide certain matters of current interest themselves and accept responsibility for them. That is why I want to thank the hon the Minister for the announced official policy on official and non-official school sport and school cultural activities. The hon the Minister took this decision after the respective organisations had been consulted, in particular the provincial education councils on which the parental community is well-represented.

In the nature of things only such powers can be devolved which are not irreconcilable with the laws of the country. For the sake of certainty I should like to see the powers being very clearly defined in a regulation, and in addition, of course, guidelines can also be spelt out within which the schools can exercise this limited acquired autonomy. Those who think that, with the devolution of power, they will be authorised to allow children from other communities to attend the schools over which they exercise control, are mistaken, because the exercise of their authority is still subordinate to the laws of the country, and besides, the hon the Minister has already announced that that power will not be devolved.

One of the functions which the HSRC also identified for parental involvement is the acceptance of the responsibility for the levying, administration and application of school fees, subject to such provisions as are required for the proper control and administration of public funds. No fault can be found with this.

However, the control bodies are experiencing certain practical problems in that they are of the opinion that there is too much bureaucratic intervention in this area, and that the departments are perhaps acting too prescriptively. This is taking place precisely because there has not been absolute devolution of power in this area, and therefore it is my opinion that this is also an area which lends itself pre-eminently to greater devolution of authority—one in which schools can, on their own resolution, manage their funds and invest as they deem fit, provided there is a report on these activities by way of audited statements and also provided that the funds are in fact applied in the interests of the school.

As regards the utilisation of physical amenities at schools, I think this is also an area in which the possibility of greater devolution can be investigated. I am thinking in particular here of the need for pre-school education, which has been identified. Lack of funding does not allow the department to finance this facet of education to an unlimited extent, and I think the parental community understands this well. With the depopulation of the schools, however, amenities at schools are regularly being made available, which can be utilised for this purpose.

I am also aware of the fact that the hon the Minister and the department are at present investigating this matter, but in my opinion this is also a component which can be devolved to a large extent. In the nature of things the school committees know the needs of the school and the community. Available spaces could be negotiated with the organisations concerned so that more amenities could also be made available in this sphere. I do not think it is necessary to stress the advantage this entails for both the school and the child attending the pre-school classes.

I also think that should such a school be able to construct the necessary amenities on their own grounds from their own funds, this is also an aspect which school committees or controlling bodies could look into. In this connection one thinks of loans from the State, if necessary, and these amenities can then be leased to the private institution running the school. The effect this would have would be that the school would receive certain funds in exchange, funds which they could utilise in the interest of the school itself. What is even more important, however, is the fact that in that way the State would be acquiring an asset.

The possible utilisation of certain facilities by existing institutions is in my opinion endless, particularly in the sphere of informal education. It is also true that informal education is primarily being dealt with by the technical colleges. Nevertheless, these colleges do not exist in every town in the country. In cities, too, they are not always situated so conveniently that they can be utilised for this purpose in a meaningful way. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, this year we commemorate 150 years since the Great Trek. The Whites who subscribe to, maintain and strive to emulate the principles and ideals of the Voortrekkers will participate in the Great Trek 150 festival later this year. The CP stands by the aforementioned principles and therefore supports this festive commemoration of and the festivities connected with Great Trek 150.

Which one of the two?

If the hon member will listen, he will hear in a moment! Those who support power-sharing in South Africa today will be acting abominably, misleadingly and immorally if they try to commemorate the Great Trek. [Interjections.] In pursuance of a question on 8 March this year … [Interjections.]

Order! No, the hon member for Delmas has the right to be heard in silence.

Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. In reply to a question here in this House on 8 March this year the hon the Minister of Education and Culture said …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member for Delmas is arguing that anyone who supports power-sharing is immoral. I support power-sharing and I should like to ask for your ruling as to whether that makes me immoral.

Order! I interpreted the hon member for Delmas as referring to the morality of supporting powersharing and at the same time participating in the festivities in regard to the commemoration of the Great Trek. If I understood incorrectly, he must assist me.

Mr Chairman, on a further point of order: If I understood him correctly, the hon member said that anyone supporting powersharing was immoral. That was what the hon member said.

Order! Is that what the hon member for Delmas said?

Mr Chairman, I will repeat what I said. I said that those who support powersharing in South Africa today are acting abominably, misleadingly and immorally.

Those? I am one of them!

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I contend that what the hon member for Delmas said is quite permissible. He was not referring to anyone in particular or to the tenets of any specific individual. He was simply referring to an act. I contend that the hon member for Delmas is completely in order.

Order! I am inclined to agree with the hon member for Overvaal that the hon member’s statement was put very widely and very generally indeed. I do not think it can be interpreted as if the hon member was referring specifically to hon members of this House. The hon member for Delmas may proceed.

Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. In reply to a question here in the House on 8 March this year the hon the Minister of Education and Culture said that the Government recognised the FAK as the umbrella cultural organisation, and that accordingly they considered the festival arranged by the FAK as the official festival, in respect of which the hon the Minister then also made a financial contribution. [Interjections.] According to him, schools are therefore expected to give their full co-operation to and to participate fully in that festival.

Mr Chairman, we have no problems with the hon the Minister’s financial contribution. We who are celebrating our own festival will generate our own money to that end. [Interjections.] Nevertheless, we want to put it to the hon the Minister that he is holding out this festival to the children as the official festival while he himself knows that the FAK do not want to include the Afrikaner-Volkswag in its ranks. After all, the children of between 500 000 and 600 000 voters who voted for the CP on 6 May 1987 are also going to school, and they will certainly support the Great Trek 150. That is why we make an appeal to all those who feel the same way we do to support Great Trek 150. The deeper meaning of this is that I am proud of my own existence and that that existence is of the greatest value and meaning—something for which I am grateful.

The occasion we are celebrating is an occasion from the past that is important to us. [Interjections.] It fills our lives with everything that is fine and meaningful. [Interjections.] I also have my national ties. I received my language and my religion chiefly from my parents, my church and my State; that is to say, from a history formed over many years and woven by the Almighty into a pattern to form a people. We must call to mind that history again because it is a great and fine history. It is our own history. [Interjections.]

The Great Trek was a turning point in our people’s history, which made it the people it is today. That is why the commemoration of this specific occurrence, namely the Great Trek, has a very special meaning because it has a permanent influence upon the way of life of our people. [Interjections.] The Great Trek is the one great popular act which, more than any other act, established and formed us as a White Afrikaner people. [Interjections.] We can spend a long time discussing this matter, but because my time has been wasted to such an extent I shall have to cut my speech short and move on to a few other matters. [Interjections.]

We ask why the FAK is recognised as the official organisation which has the right to organise the Great Trek. [Interjections.] It may be that the FAK was previously the official representative, but it has not been so for some time now. [Interjections.] When Afrikaner culture found itself in a crisis situation because of a new dispensation from which a new South Africa was to appear in which the Afrikaner people would have to forfeit its status as a people to become a minority group in a nation of minorities, in which it would lose its self-determination because of power-sharing, in which it would have to share its citizenship and its homeland on a non-discriminatory basis with all the peoples of the country, the result of which could mean the end of Afrikanerdom, the FAK did not have the moral courage to stand against those things; on the contrary, together with the public media the FAK tried to ridicule and belittle the Volkswag and refused to allow it to become affiliated. [Interjections.]

You were not able to hijack it!

How can one celebrate when the sense of freedom, the language and the uniqueness of the Afrikaner is smothered in the new dispensation of power-sharing in a mixed country with one nation under one authority? [Interjections.] In a press statement on 5 March the Afrikaner-Volkswag had the following to say:

[Interjections.] I just want to quote what Dr D F Malan said, and I would very much like all hon members to listen to this. [Interjections.] Dr Malan said:

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I just want to draw your attention to the fact that while the hon member for Delmas was speaking the hon the Deputy Minister of Agriculture on eight occasions either made interjections or passed certain comments.

Order! I am under the impression that there is only one presiding officer in this Committee.

Mr Chairman, I am very pleased that I now have an opportunity to respond to the hon member for Delmas. I am very pleased to respond to him because precisely what I wanted to state in my speech has so obviously been substantiated by the hon member’s speech, and that is that there is a strange tendency among the hon members of the Official Opposition to confuse emotion with culture.

Allow me to provide a little background. When one looks, in this year of festivals, at the wonderful history and the cultural heritage of the Huguenots, of what Dias achieved, and of the Voortrekkers during the Great Trek, one marvels at what they did and what they accomplished.

Two words epitomise the undisputed tenacity of Dias, the undisputed faith of the Huguenots and the pioneering courage and bravery of the Voortrekkers, and they are: “humble dependence”. Dias erected a cross and knelt before it, the Huguenots even sacrificed their language for the sake of higher values, and in their beautiful Covenant the Voortrekkers acknowledged their humble dependence on Almighty God. When one looks at culture in the broad sense, at what man produces from his human, creative spirit in his interaction with the reality of creation; in other words, at culture as the collective product of this creative spirit of a society, which includes the way in which it practices the arts, plays its sports, runs it economy and engages in its politics, one finds that a veritable treasure chest of values lies locked up in our cultural heritage.

Is it not true that a tree is known by its fruit? Is it not true that our everyday activities reflect something of our innermost selves? Culture is therefore not the superficial emotion which one stirs up, and culture is not a distorted representation of history. After all, is the hon member not talking about a “trek na ons eie”, or a trek towards our own values? I want to tell the hon member that that is a distorted representation. More than half of the farmers at that time did not take part in the trek. Those who remained behind also retained their own values. The trek had nothing to do with the retention of one’s own values because whether they went or stayed behind they retained their own values. I am a descendant of people who did not take part in the trek.

One can see that!

However, I have retained my own values. Is the hon member for Overvaal implying by way of his interjection that one can see that the descendants of those Afrikaners who did not take part in the trek are not Afrikaners? I invite him to come and say that in my constituency.

I simply see strange things in you!

Order!

In his Great Trek to the interior the Afrikaner forged into the future and his own values were the weapons with which he entered the future. He did not take part in the trek in search of anything; he did so armed with his own values. [Interjections.] Today the task of the Afrikaner is still the same. His mission lies in the maintenance of Christian values, a spirit of generosity, charitableness, justice, humility and tolerance. Are those not the great spiritual values we inherited from our ancestors?

One cannot, in the same breath, profess to subscribe to the Christian National world view whilst one’s actions cry out against this. One cannot, like the hon members of the Official Opposition, profess to uphold those values but at the same time speak from a position of fear and uncertainty. Those people are afraid of association with others, of contamination and outside influences and of every occasion on which our children could come into contact with people of colour and people of other language groups and cultures. [Interjections.]

Order!

What is more, one cannot follow the banner of Christian values when one’s entire economic policy is based on selfishness.

The hon members of the CP also call power sharing immoral. Are you not familiar with the concept of “charitable prosperity” (mededeelsame welvaart)? By way of your policy your are displaying a selfish approach. You are displaying an approach of racial prejudice and racial privilege, because you are opposed to the principle of equal salaries for the same work. You are opposed to the principle of equal education, and you are in favour of job reservation and of racial privilege by statute. What is more, you also adopt an arrogant stance in your speeches. Have we in this House not had enough of your backbenchers’ offensive behaviour towards senior hon members of this Parliament; of your derogatory remarks directed at fellow Afrikaners, and of the selective treatment of facts, to say the least? Your extra-parliamentary leader refers to a Minister as “old Vlokkie”. Your little Hitlers in the back benches carry on as if they have never …

Order! The hon member must withdraw the reference to “little Hitlers”.

I withdraw it, Sir, and I am even prepared to apologise. I shall change it.

Your little Eugene Terre’Blanchés in the back benches are carrying on in an unbecoming fashion. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member may proceed. I am simply attempting to bring the Committee to order for him.

Your speech displays an attitude of intolerance. You are even opposed to the institution of open areas, even where the people would prefer them. You will not tolerate others …

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

No, my time has nearly expired, Sir.

If we profess to be the exponents of the Christian National ideal and if we want to follow the banner of promoting and rendering service to our culture, then the mission of the Afrikaner lies in conveying and cherishing those lofty values, the lofty values of charitableness, justice, humility and tolerance. However, how can I convey this to others and how can I convince Africa of this if I myself am unwilling to uphold those values?

I want to make the statement that you in the CP have turned your back on the mission of the Afrikaner in this country. [Interjections.] You are the people who are moving away from the values that we ought to be upholding. You will—I want to predict this—achieve short-term success …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member persists in speaking directly to us and in referring to us as “you”, instead of speaking through the Chair. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member may continue.

You are moving away from those values that we need in order to ensure the continued existence of the country and to ensure a place in the sun in the future for the people to which we belong. [Interjections.]

Order! Before I call upon the hon member for De Aar to speak, I want to point out, in response to the last point of order raised by the hon member for Overvaal, that the hon member for Sundays River did, in fact, use the word “you”. However, he repeatedly addressed the Chairman, although what he said was actually directed at the Official Opposition.

Mr Chairman, I have pleasure in speaking after my colleague, the hon member for Sundays River. I agree to a large extent with his speech. I am particularly pleased that he explained to the Committee in such a strong and convincing manner the situation in connection with the Great Trek festival of this year, and also other cultural matters.

The background to my speech is mainly the rural environment in relation to education. I want to make use of the opportunity to say that, as hon members know, the school, particularly in the rural areas, plays a particular role in the retention of those communities. We find that parental involvement at schools in the rural areas is very strong indeed, and that the inputs which the parents in a rural community render for that community through the school are particular inputs, in many cases too in regard to the bringing into existence and the maintenance of facilities as well as financial contributions, having regard to the distances and the concomitant time involved. Bearing in mind all these things, one is impressed by the size of the contribution and the involvement of the parents at schools in the rural areas. This results in the fact that particularly in the rural areas—I do not wish to anticipate the speeches of any of my other colleagues—there is a very special bond among these people and, in every little town, an own little culture is built up around its school and its church. That is why we find that our rural communities are to a large extent reasonably individualistic. It is a fact that where a town has lost its school it has declined and its community has lost its cohesion.

I would like to make use of this opportunity to thank the Cape provincial education authority very sincerely indeed. We know, also from speeches made by the Administrator, that in this province because of the particularly great distances and its great size, special provision is made for small schools and that an exceptional contribution is being made to keep these communities going in the best way possible. We are very grateful for that.

From what I have just said it follows that education in the rural areas has special requirements and is subject to special problems and special circumstances. That is why we also want to thank the hon the Minister who has intimated that the department will continue as long as it can—I believe it is ad infinitum—to maintain education in the rural areas in the best possible way.

I also want to say a few words about parental involvement. This is a great asset to education in the education partnership. My plea is that we should use parental involvement in a very special way. In associating myself with my benchmate, the hon member for Port Elizabeth North, in regard to the question of parental involvement and the proposals he made in his speech, I would like to highlight just one component thereof. Where parental involvement is not as it should be, we must make special efforts to improve it by involving the parents more directly in school activities. I am of the opinion that school committees in some cases but school boards in all cases should be used to ensure that capital expenditure, maintenance work and improvements are done efficiently. These committees should also act as the watchdogs over the standard of the work that is done. Through the medium of parental involvement we will also be able to use these committees to make a special input in respect of costs. The costs connected with the facilities for education and training and their maintenance are high, and I think it would be to our advantage to consider better control. The principle that one takes responsibility for one’s own affairs, in the financial sphere as well, is relevant here, and an attitude of this nature is the best watchdog for the expenditure of public funds; in other words, that a community will itself utilise the funds allocated through its committee.

At the moment, school committees have nothing more than a measure of responsibility in regard to staff appointments, and school boards are financial and administrative conduits. As my benchmate, the hon member for Port Elizabeth North, stated, here we have the opportunity for the sensible and viable devolution of power. I would also ask the hon the Minister to reply in this regard. This implies further that parental involvement which in itself is a strong stimulus at the school, will be assisted to make a greater input.

The second point I want to make is in regard to community involvement. Next to the church, the school is probably the largest and most precious community asset. It is an asset to everyone in a community and not, as it is often seen, only to the parents. I want to come back to the rural circumstances because where the school has to be carried through the involvement of people, the involvement of the whole community has to be obtained. The size of the community and school population is usually very small, and so the parents themselves usually do not number very many. In such cases, the involvement of the whole community must be obtained. I should like to express a few ideas in this regard to ascertain to what extent one can try to assist in getting the community and not only the parents more involved in the school.

Talking now about the community, I ask myself this question: How does the community act? Pursuant to this, I also ask how the community are being incited to act nowadays by the hon members of the Official Opposition and by the supporters of their political viewpoint. In this regard I associate myself most strongly with the hon member for Sundays River who spelt this out to a large extent. I should also like to state that in this respect we must be honest with one another in accepting the fact that opinions must differ. People simply have to differ because all of them cannot always agree.

As far as politics at school are concerned, I want to make the point that I think there is a need for broad politics particularly at White schools but not party politics. To encourage blatant hatred in communities and to use children as pawns, is a dreadful injustice which we permit in our communities. We are building up the Republic of South Africa. This Government is concerned about the best interests of the country—the Republic of South Africa. The Official Opposition say that they look after the interests of only one population group and ignore the others. In this process they are causing the break-up of communities. The school is being used to intimidate communities. In the rural areas it is no longer unusual for supporters of the Official Opposition to threaten people. I know of cases where they have threatened to have their children taken out of the school. They make pawns of our children and misuse the children by weakening their base by preaching suspicion of and a lack of confidence in other groups. If their policy as enunciated by the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition is not based on hatred, then why does the CP not tell its supporters to stop misusing the interests of the children in order to intimidate these communities? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I spoke yesterday to some extent about provincial education councils. There is one further point I would like make about these councils before I move on to other topics. Provision is made in the rules of these provincial education councils to hold meetings in the open, which the public may attend. Certainly this is the way it should be. I want to make it quite clear that I do not think they should be held in the open air, but should be open to the public.

We also find that provision is in fact made for a council to go into a committee stage when—I quote from the rules—“it is to deliberate on any matter which in its opinion should be dealt with confidentially”. We had the situation in Natal fairly recently—in the past few months—when the Natal Education Council went into a committee stage at a very important stage of a meeting, and even a member of this House, the hon member for Pinetown, was asked to leave the meeting. The subject under discussion was in fact the draft of the Bill which has been laid upon the Table in this House today.

The PFP has very severe problems with this particular aspect of the rules governing education councils. We believe that a measure of secrecy has been allowed to creep into the work of the council, and this is something that we are totally opposed to. Obviously a matter such as the new Education Affairs Bill, which will affect everyone associated in any way with education in the provinces is an important matter and unless the Government was trying to hide something yet again there was no obvious reason why the council should have gone into committee stage on this particular issue. I stress that a committee stage is closed to the public.

I want to submit to the hon the Minister that in order to give these councils greater credibility—I believe they need some credibility at this stage—it is essential that they hold their meetings in open at all times, and the hon the Minister should, in fact, take steps to remove the clause allowing for them to go into committee stage. I urge the hon the Minister to look into this matter very carefully indeed to ensure that the partnership in education which he talks about has very real meaning.

Another matter I want to take up today is the question of the role of ministerial representatives in education. I want to make it clear at the outset that the PFP is opposed to the whole matter of the establishment of the posts of ministerial representatives. We regard them as non-essential and as part of the ever-growing gravy train.

Although the people appointed were not necessarily politicians before they received their appointment from the hon the State President, we have to accept that the moment they became ministerial representatives they became politicians holding political positions within the Government. It would be wrong to see them in any other light.

The ministerial representative in Natal, Dr Hosking, has certainly had much praise heaped upon him by hon members of this House. I worked with Dr Hosking when he was Director of Education in Natal and I accept fully that he was a very good Director of Education.

The Nats did not!

I can recall well the particular concern which he shared with the Natal Teachers’ Society at the time of his retirement that the right person be appointed to the directorship to ensure that the ethos of that particular department was continued and retained. He was particularly concerned that English-speaking people should be appointed to the department in senior positions. Obviously the Natal Teachers’ Society shared that point of view with him since the province of Natal is predominantly English speaking. [Interjections.] The Natal Teachers’ Society was advised to fight for certain people to be appointed to such senior positions in order to put them in line for the directorship in future.

I am not quite sure where Dr Hosking would stand on this particular issue today, because today he is a member of the NP and an officebearer in that party. He was appointed by the hon the State President to a position equivalent to that of a Deputy Minister in the Government and he must assist the own affairs Ministers in the implementation of Government policy. Therefore he must agree with the education policy of the NP and with the changes that have taken place in education control and administration. [Interjections.]

I want to make it clear that the PFP is opposed to own affairs education and to the process of centralised control. I must therefore tell hon members of the NP and to the hon member for Umhlanga in particular that when they call upon me and other members of the PFP to place their faith in people such as Dr Hosking, they are asking too much. They are asking us to trust the Government—something we find impossible to do.

I want now to turn my attention to the issue of school sport and culture. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, I gather that the hon member for Umhlanga is threatening me; I look forward to seeing exactly what he means by that in the future.

The voters will sort you out.

Order! No, the hon member for Umhlanga cannot continue in this manner.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I listened with interest to what the CP said yesterday with regard to their attitude to the new regulations governing school sport and culture, and obviously I must distance this party completely and immediately from the attitude of that party. I want to say to the hon the Minister that we welcome the steps taken by him and his department to prevent what we could term, I suppose, Menlo Park-type fiascos from happening again in the future. The decision as to whether a school should participate in a particular interschool event has now devolved on the school itself, and we can therefore say that the way has been paved for greater racial mixing at school level.

I want to say to the hon the Minister of Education and Culture that it would seem that schools generally have welcomed this policy, certainly the schools that I come into contact with. It is also important that we know that the full text of the policy that he issued recently obviously made far more sense than the statement he gave to the Press some weeks ago, which was difficult to comprehend and which did not appear to be really addressing the problem directly. I want to ask the hon the Minister again today, as the hon member for Pinetown did recently—in fact on Tuesday of this week—why he will not make this policy statement available to members of the public, in fact not even to members of Parliament.

This policy is an important development and one which his department should feel proud of, and yet again we find that it is shrouded in secrecy, perhaps the same kind of secrecy this Minister hides behind so often. I appeal to him to make that statement available more widely than at present. I also want to stress that the real tragedy behind this particular sports policy is that a policy of this nature became necessary at all, and this I am afraid is once again a reflection of the tensions that exist in this country as a result of the apartheid policy which we have experienced for the past 40 years.

I want to deal very briefly with the matter of special education. We all know that as part of the programme of own affairs education and the changes in structures of control and administration, schools and centres for specialised education, as well as technical colleges have been brought, to some extent, under the control of the provincial education departments. I use the words “to some extent” advisedly, because it is not really very clear at all, or not very easy to determine which control functions in respect of the schools fall into the hands of the provincial education departments and which of those functions remain with the central Department of Education. There is no doubt that the transfer of these schools and colleges was hurried, without due consideration of the problems that would arise in trying to unite two departments which had both developed very different control structures, both within the departments concerned and within the schools and colleges which fell under their respective control.

In many, many respects I do say that the situation is shambolic. Principals of schools do not always know to which department they should refer particular matters; departmental officials are constantly having to refer matters brought to their attention to other departments; teachers and school boards are confused as to their rights; and one finds teachers now supposedly under the control of the provincial education departments who are operating under entirely different policies with regard to such matters as appointments and promotions.

Order! I regret to say that the hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I would just like the hon the Minister to look into that matter very carefully. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, allow me in the first place to refer to something completely outside of education. Well, insofar as a man can catch another man’s eye, I have just noticed those hon members who have adorned themselves so nicely with a red rose in their lapel. I think the hon member for Greytown has already referred to them. [Interjections.] The reason why they look so nice today is because they have been members of this House for precisely seven years today. When the hon member for Greytown referred to this matter, I thought to myself that if only he had supported the right party he would also have been able to sport a red rose today. [Interjections.] Allow me therefore, Mr Chairman, just to assure those hon colleagues who are recognisable by their red roses today that their presence in this House gives pleasure in particular to those of us on this side of the House but also, I believe, to all other hon members here because of the wonderful scent given off by those roses. [Interjections.]

I believe those hon members are making a positive contribution in this House. They have been doing so now for seven years. It is my most sincere wish that it will be given to them to continue to make their contributions here for many years to come, not only in the interests of the NP but also in the interests of the whole country which they have been called upon to serve in this way. My very best wishes to them all.

They are all going to fall out in the next election!

Mr Chairman, I want now to reply quickly to two questions put to me by hon members of the Official Opposition, questions by means of which they have once again tried to sow suspicion by alleging that we refuse to reply to those questions because such dark deeds were ostensibly being perpetrated.

I refer to the Witteberg High School at Winburg. What is the actual situation in regard to that high school? The Free State Education Department has received no official complaint to date. Once again it is only a hearsay story that those hon members have told us in this House. The fact of the matter is that a telephonic enquiry brought to light the fact that an enquiry was made at a parent evening at the school and that the school principal himself investigated the matter and found it to be of such a nature that he was of the opinion that he could in any case not take it any further. Therefore, no official complaint whatsoever was lodged with the Free State Education Department. Once again this is just another of the many pieces of gossip spread by the Official Opposition which we are now becoming very tired of.

You yourself said there was a complaint! [Interjections.]

I also want to say one or two things about the Vredendal school bus, a matter in regard to which those hon members interrupted me by way of interjections while I was speaking. What is the actual situation in this regard? Once again those hon members have tried to show that the Cape Education Department has made its bus available so that subversive activities could carry on unimpeded.

The fact of the matter is that this school bus was rented to the chairman of the Namaqualand Agricultural Co-operative at the school’s normal tariff. This man made all the arrangements. The school was in no way involved. What is more, it is a fact that school buses that are purchased by the schools themselves are not the property of the education department. This particular school bus therefore does not belong to the department, nor is it subsidised. It is of course up to the school to rent that bus to whomsoever it pleases and at whatever tariff it pleases, and the person hiring the bus can then drive wherever he wants to. That story is therefore also devoid of all truth. This is simply just another case in which hon members of the Official Opposition have tried to get at the Government, irrespective of the truth. [Interjections.]

Before business is suspended I just want to say that I was really made very pleasantly aware—I want to say this—of a lovely fresh breeze that started wafting through this House. I want to address this remark particularly to the hon members of the NP—I shall come back to them later—who did not resort to petty party politics. We need only read their Hansard to notice how those hon members each made a constructive contribution as far as education and training in this country are concerned. They made constructive contributions affecting the activities of the Department of Education and Culture. There were also some hon members of the PFP—I must say this with due recognition—who in their contributions did not resort to party politics but who did in fact deal with certain matters affecting the activities of this department. It is therefore only right and fair that I should reply to them in that regard.

I trust that with the resumption of business at 14h15 we will continue to hear contributions of the quality of those that have already been made, and that the petty politicking will now cease. I really do hope that hon members of the Official Opposition who are still going to participate in the debate will take this statement to heart. Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon sitting

Mr Chairman, I want to refer very briefly to the speech of the hon member for Hillbrow who apologised for not being able to be present here today. I want to thank him for his flattering remarks to me which actually came to my ears through his mother who is known to me, and together with whom I enjoyed many pleasant years of co-operation in the Free State Teachers’ Association.

I also want to thank the hon member for his plea in regard to the teaching of natural sciences and mathematics, and I want to give him the assurance that his practicable and viable recommendations …

Is he not also running away?

… are already receiving the attention of my department and that the matter is receiving further attention.

I would like now to refer to the hon members for Pinetown and Durban North. Yesterday the hon member for Pinetown mentioned a report that appeared in the Financial Mail. Of course, I accept the hon member’s assurance that he does not accept responsibility for everything that appeared in that incorrect report, and my department will in its turn rectify the matter with the editor of the Financial Mail.

The hon member concluded his speech yesterday on a very high note when he referred to the two festivals. In pursuance of certain speeches that I have heard today, I am very pleased that the hon member also stated very strongly that he was so bitterly disappointed that there had to be further division, particularly in Afrikaans-speaking circles, as a result of these festivals. The hon member is absolutely correct in his appeal that these festivals should actually be celebrated in such a way that we are drawn together and not driven apart from one another. I agree with him. The idea that the hon member had that we may possibly decide to delegate him to represent the House of Assembly because he has such a wonderful beard made me think of the wonderful picture it would make to see the hon member for Pinetown and Mr H D K van der Merwe, who also sports a similar beard, walking side by side during the festivities. [Interjections.]

I also want to link up a few matters raised by the hon member for Pinetown and the hon member for Durban North. In the first instance I want to refer briefly to the question regarding the so-called ethos and character of a province. The hon member thought fit to quote my predecessor, the hon the Minister of Home Affairs. That is quite correct, and he could also have quoted me on various occasions when I said precisely the same thing.

Let me say again today that it is not at all our aim—nor are we interested in doing this—to take away the character, identity, and the ethos of a particular province. However, what is important is that we must accept the fact that we are dealing with a new dispensation in terms of the Constitution. The Constitution decrees—and I fully agree with it—that we have a single policy-making department, namely the Department of Education and Culture, and that we have four executive education departments.

The new dispensation decrees that we no longer have a provincial council and thus also no longer an executive committee member for education. For that reason we have one policy-making department, but we do not want to centralise in such a way that we deprive a province of its character. For that reason it is wrong if we immediately seek to link centralisation to the removal of ethos, and, what is more, if we link this with Pretoria. That is totally and utterly wrong. The fact of the matter is that we are doing everything in our power to maintain the ethos within the system—which is a good system—by, for example, establishing provincial education councils which are representative of all the education partners—specifically also in Natal—of its own parents and its own organised profession. What is more, we have already resorted to delegation, and we have devolved any number of delegations to the directors of education.

Tell us what they are.

There is no problem in that regard.

The fact of the matter is that as a result of this delegation the Director of Education in Natal has far more powers today than any of his predecessors had. What is more, the Director of Education in Natal and all the other directors of education are linked up in the CEH. In the CEH it is not a question of decision-making by my department or the Superintendent-General. It is not stated that educational heads are to follow only a certain decision. Discussion takes place on almost the same basis as in the Cabinet, with eventual consensus decision-making.

Every director of education therefore has the fullest opportunity there to state his province’s ethos to the full, and then a joint decision is taken. We are therefore doing everything possible to try to preserve this but also then within the general policy that we have one single education department which will also determine policy.

As far as the provincial education councils are concerned, I want to say that they are not a rubber stamp. In terms of the regulations the provincial education councils have important powers, a few of which I want to mention. Before I resort to any new policy announcement, I have first to recognise the provincial education councils. Where there is any new thinking in regard to teacher training, the provincial education councils have to be consulted.

What if they disagree with you?

The hon member must just wait a moment.

In other words, the provincial education councils have an exceptional advisory function, and the Minister of Education and Culture is compelled statutorily to liaise with them first before he makes any new policy announcements.

Do they consult …

This places an extremely important instrument in the hands of the provincial educational councils. Let me also say immediately that the provincial education councils are not the Government. They are also not future provincial councils. That they cannot be. For that reason it is not so easy as just thinking that we should give only specific powers to the provincial education councils, and I am also referring here to my hon colleague who also discussed this matter.

I want to hasten to say that we are dealing with a new model and, of course, changes have to come. I want to tell the hon member for Port Elizabeth North that these councils also of course have the power to advise the Minister in regard to any matter. In other words, during the development phase these councils can also come forward with specific ideas. My department is also of course subject to change. We are not imprisoned within specific narrow boundaries. If we investigate matters and they are in the best interests of education, we will implement them with pleasure. That is my reply to that hon member.

I should like to put a question to the hon member for Durban North, and the hon member for Pinetown would also do well to listen. I have great respect for every professional teachers’ association, whether it is the NTS or the SATU or whatever, but it is also important—I trust the hon member agrees with me—that the task and function of every professional teachers’ association must be purely in the interests of education.

Correct.

Furthermore, these professional teachers’ associations of the provinces are linked together in the Federal Council of Teachers’ Associations in South Africa. They are affiliated there after I recognise them. So it is that the NTS is once again in the team, even though there was a time when it was not in the team. I want to accept the fact that I am talking to the hon member as a respected president of the NTS, and I praise him for his good work from the educational point of view.

The Natal Teachers’ Society has on various occasions gone to press with nothing less than blatant politics, pure and simple. I have a number of such examples, and the hon member for Durban North is aware of this fact. There is no doubt about it. A meeting was held recently of which the hon member knows very well—I believe the hon member for Pinetown was present.

And the hon member for Umhlatuzana.

Yes, and on invitation. A motion was adopted on that occasion, and I can quote the motion. It is no secret, because the NTS made it available to the Press. I quote:

In other words, here the NTS is doing nothing less than saying that it will simply cease all extramural activities if the State does not comply with certain salary demands. I want to ask the hon member as a teacher, educationist and also former chairman of that association whether he subscribes to that motion.

No.

Good, and I laud the hon member for his honesty as a politician who does not hold certain points of view for party political gain. I want to ask the hon member …

[Inaudible.]

I am also very grateful to the hon member for Pinetown. I want to ask these hon members please to use their influence to put an end to that strike idea in the interests of education and of good co-operation between the NTS and the Federal Teachers’ Council. Strikes are not appropriate to a professional group of people. The Federal Teachers’ Council as well as the NTS can by all means bargain for their people, but certainly not on that level.

Hon members will pardon me if I conclude this subject by quoting what was written in this connection by the editor of the OVSOV publication, Prof van Loggerenberg:

I quote further:

I want to conclude with a certain sentence which ends as follows:

I want to thank the OVSOV publication for this balanced view, and I hope and trust that the Federal Teachers’ Council will also have to accept the fact that the statements of affiliated members of the organisation also affect the Federal Teachers’ Council. I think it is in the interests of education in our country that the Federal Teachers’ Council also allow its voice to be heard in this connection.

I want now to address the Committee briefly on a few matters regarding the cultural affairs and cultural aspects of my department. I do so against the background of my department’s theme for 1988, namely “Education and culture in the service of the community”, but also in the knowledge that this is a special year that we are experiencing. This year is certainly a special festival year. This year we are commemorating the landing of Dias on our coast 500 years ago, and we have just recently experienced the highlight of the festivities regarding the arrival of the French Huguenots 300 years ago. Within a few months we will have the opportunity of recalling the Great Trek into the interior 150 years ago.

These festivals affirm anew the values upon which this country has been built and to which its people lay claim. They emphasise anew the importance of a dynamic cultural life in the existence of every community or people, as well as the role that culture can play in welding people with divergent backgrounds and convictions into a solid unit with one heart, one mind and one aim. These happenings bear witness to a history which has formed us into a community of groups, each with its own culture, habits and practices, but nevertheless, for the information of the hon member for Bethal, bound together by a common land.

I want to make use of this opportunity to thank the chairman of the Dias and Huguenot Festival, the Administrator, Eugene Louw, and the members of all his committees and other local committees for their zeal in regard to the festivals that have already been completed and which are still to come.

†If hon members were to ask me today why the State spends millions of rands every year on the promotion of culture, something which many people regard as a mere luxury in our national economy, and why my department played, or is playing, a supportive role in the three festivals, I could give hon members several good reasons.

We, as believers, have received a commandment from our Creator to inhabit and cultivate the earth, following two very important guidelines; love of our Creator and love for our fellow human beings. A given culture is the way people live in compliance with these commandments.

The cultural service of my department makes a very special contribution to ensure that certain specific national aims, as contained in the Constitution, can be achieved. I am referring here to aims such as the upholding of Christian values and civilised norms; the furthering of the well-being and the spiritual welfare of all, and the respect for, and extension of, the self-determination of population groups.

Furthermore, cultural functions and occasions such as musical and theatrical performances, art exhibitions, courses in needlework, recreational meetings, visits to museums or attendance of national festivals, enhance the quality of life in just the same way as good housing, good health services and wholesome food enhance our quality of life.

It is the State’s duty to preserve our cultural heritage and to create a milieu in which culture can flourish. Within the parameters of these broad guidelines the Culture Promotion Act of 1983 makes provision for the State to support each population group in the country to preserve, develop, promote and extend that which is unique to itself.

My department watches over the promotion of the culture of the White population group. It attempts to promote the spiritual, mental and physical potential of especially the White citizens to the advantage of the community and the country by, inter alia, furnishing certain specific services and facilities which are necessary for the promotion of a cultural life.

As a basic premise, we accept that the autonomy of the community should be acknowledged at all times. My department primarily renders a supportive service, to help organisations to maintain, consolidate and promote their own cultural values, in accordance with their needs, in their own way and according to their own philosophy and view of life.

Apart from cultural differentiation between various communities, culture also finds expression in various forms such as music, the literary arts, the plastic arts, the human sciences, the natural sciences, family education, homemaking and recreation. Within the parameters of these main divisions, specific people need specific ways of expression, and an attempt is therefore made to satisfy the cultural needs of all as far as possible.

My department, however, accepts that culture also has a universal side and that the various groups in South Africa have certain broad cultural bonds. We promote a dynamic interaction between various cultures and our declared cultural institutions, such as museums, are open to all.

The eight regional councils for cultural affairs represent people of their own regions and play an extremely important role in democratising the cultural promotion action of the State to the greatest extent possible. In this regard the councils of the seven declared cultural institutions and the four national monuments, which fall under my department, play an equally important part.

Structures alone, however, are not sufficient. Advice, assistance and guidance are offered to communities by a team of experienced cultural officers—especially as far as the organising, presenting and finalising of cultural-educational projects such as lecture series, exhibitions, performances, demonstrations and camps are concerned. Cultural organisations are also helped to obtain financial assistance for recurring expenses.

In co-operation with the Commission for Administration these services were gathered together into a chief directorate which will offer better opportunities for promotion for its officers and at the same time a higher status for culture promotion within the department. A work-study investigation into regional offices, declared cultural institutions and the head office components is at present nearing completion and will help to structure the service more effectively.

*There are particular highlights that I should like to mention briefly. In terms of the new constitutional dispensation attention has been given to the classification of the provincial, provincially aided and local museums as own and general affairs. Besides the present subsidisation of seven declared cultural institutions—four cultural historical museums and three art collections—41 of the 110 museums presently falling under the four provincial administrations have been identified as White own affairs, and these museums are at present being transferred to my department.

The take-over of these museums certainly opens new possibilities in the museum situation for matters such as the establishment of a nationwide museum structure, co-ordinated staff training, the establishment of centralised restoration centres and the exchange of expertise and collections.

It is well-known that a pilot committee was appointed during 1986 to investigate innovation in the culture promotion task of my department, with special reference to the functioning of the Directorate of Cultural Affairs. After in-depth analysis of the theory in practice, the committee identified certain shortcomings in the structure for culture promotion. In the light of this guidelines have been laid down in terms of which the structure ought to be adapted in order to enable the promotion of culture to come fully into its own. Investigations recommended in the report are now being proceeded with. These include the investigations into the further devolution of functions and authority, the staff structure, regional borders and co-ordination and co-functioning on own affairs level.

On the initiative of the Simon van der Stel Foundation, Afrikaans and English-speaking writers will alternately be requested annually to write suitable commissioned works which will be presented annually on 6 April at a prestige gathering in the restored Ou Raadsaal in Pretoria.

The Northern Transvaal Regional Council for Cultural Affairs has been requested to accept responsibility for the presentation of this annual Founders’ Day project.

The property of the late Coert Steynberg in Pretoria, and a portion of his art collection, has been purchased on behalf of my department and will be run by the National Cultural Historical and Open-Air Museum as a satellite museum. The rest of the collection will be purchased over the next three years.

Permit me a last thought. A glorious past and a dynamic present will avail us nothing unless the future is also assured. Communication today is instantaneous. This results in all kinds of foreign and often unacceptable cultural fetishes quickly being blown over here and finding great favour in specific circles. We already find a great measure of non-involvement in our cultural life today, the negation of Christian values and civilised norms, revolt against authority, secularisation and the adoption of foreign ideologies.

Only by neutralising harmful influences while retaining positive values can we ensure that our glorious past and our dynamic present will be given stature in a sound future. We will continue to build our vision for the future upon the values of our forefathers. We will hand down this vision confidently to our children, safe in the knowledge that these are also their values and that they share our faith.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to speak after the hon the Minister, particularly after he introduced a second part of the discussion of this Vote and spoke in quite some detail about the cultural activities of the department.

This afternoon I want to allow the emphasis in my speech to fall on the cultural section of the discussion of this Vote. I want to refer specifically …

Let it fall, let it fall …

I do not want to start a conversation with the hon member for Overvaal across the floor of this Committee. Nevertheless I want to tell him this afternoon that he reminds me a great deal of a quite well-known figure in the Bible, of whom we must take cognizance, and that is Balaam’s talking ass. I really think he should restrain himself as far as this yelling across the floor of the Committee is concerned. [Interjections.]

I want to refer specifically to a subject which I think ought to receive more attention in our society, and that is the importance of the promotion of serious or classical music, if you like. Every culture in the world has its own music. This music influences the spirit, the body and the religious views of mankind. In all cultures, however civilised or primitive they may be, people make music.

According to Merriman, who is quoted in Petrus Roos’s doctoral thesis on this matter, there is no other human activity like music. He says that music is so pervasive that it has a radical and formative effect on a person’s life, and frequently determines a great deal of a person’s behaviour and conduct.

The history of mankind has demonstrated, however, that the level of civilisation of a people can be measured by its musical development. I think this is also something we must duly take into account in South Africa.

It is not my intention, in this debate today, to play off one form of music against another. There are various forms of music, and every form has its favourable and its less favourable side. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that if one knew anything about music, one would realise that there was pop music which, technically and from a musicological point of view, was very well-written and which could, in its own right, be described as good music.

The Beatles.

Yes, the Beatles also wrote good music, particularly if one knows about seventh and ninth chord harmonies. Then one would understand it. [Interjections.) The same also applies to other forms of music in the modern idiom.

The original music which forms the basis of music development in the civilised Western World, however, is indisputably serious or classical music. One would justifiably be able to say that all other modern forms of music in the Western World developed from this background of serious music.

The important impact that modern music makes on our personalities is mostly at the physiological, the emotional and the social level.

Some kinds of pop music, such as Underground and psychedelic music, remind one more of a cult than a culture.

Like the CPs.

The hon member for Sunnyside says it is almost like the CPs. I shall not comment on that.

The Potgietersrus Polka! [Interjections.]

That is music which is unworthy of human beings. The hon member for Carletonville knows as much about music as the man in the moon.

If one looked at the definition of serious music one would see that … [Interjections.] The hon member must keep quiet now. It is stated that the promotion of serious music is aimed at developing the aesthetic sensitivity of people, and that hon member knows nothing about that. He must keep quiet when we are talking about aesthetic sensitivity. [Interjections.]

He comes from Carletonville, and all we can tell him is that we sing “The Holy City” to him.

At least he won. You didn’t!

Order! Too many interjections are being made here. Hon members must immediately keep quiet.

Yes, you must keep quiet now.

Order! The same applies to the hon member for Overvaal.

This music is aimed at the animal emotions which are latent in all human beings, as we now saw among the CP. The covert or overt motives behind the subculture, which is aimed particularly at young people, is commercial gain. It is aimed at making piles of money. In contrast—I come now to the essence of the point I wanted to convey this afternoon—serious music contributes to the harmonious development of the whole person, and besides the physiological, emotional and social, also includes the intellectual, artistic and spiritual-moral qualities of an individual’s personality. Serious music is not part of an instant music culture, which is here today and gone in a few months’ time. The inherent, permanent qualities of such music are the guarantee and the reason for the fact that after centuries people have still not rejected it. After hundreds of years the great masters, including Beethoven and Bach, are still well-known and well-loved. I say that after hundreds of years they have not been rejected, just like the NP, which will never be rejected in South Africa. [Interjections.]

I want to express my appreciation to our schools that are according music its rightful place in the educational and formative programmes of our children. It is of inestimable value. In fact, during an international music symposium at Tangle-wood in the USA, in 1978, speakers demonstrated that certain educational skills essential to the learning process were stimulated and promoted by studying and playing serious music. Included among these skills are language and mathematical skills, general academic proficiency, creative ability and also the ability to express one’s own feelings. Unfortunately I must also mention, on the negative side, that there are still schools at which singing and music periods are not correctly or satisfactorily utilised. Sometimes these are the periods in which children play the fool a little or in which they catch up on their homework. I hope that such situations will be remedied in our schools, because it could mean a serious deficiency in a child’s education if he or she were not imbued with a thorough knowledge and appreciation of serious music.

Frequently the problem does not lie with the children and the tuition they receive at school, because in general the schools are making a major contribution to the development of a sound musical culture in our country. The question is what does the child experience outside the school. What is happening in our homes? Are parents taking the time to teach their children to develop a love and appreciation for serious music? This is frequently not the case because our parents allow their children to fall victim to a sound and word cult which, in a subtle way, gnaws at civilised standards and Christian norms.

The electronic media can play a very important educational role in this sphere. However, through the broadcasting of commercial music, viewers and listeners are so inundated, day after day, by this subculture that there are already disturbing signs of superficiality in our music-making and also in our appreciation of music.

In conclusion I want to make an appeal to all cultural organisations, the schools, the parents and the media, to get more people actively involved in promoting serious music. This will bring about an intensification and enrichment in culture, and emphasise that culture is indispensable to the education of human beings. It will also contribute to the further development of this culture, which is so important to us.

Mr Chairman, the hon member Dr Golden will excuse me if I do not react to him. My knowledge of music is not much greater than that of the hon member for Overvaal. However, I want to make a few observations about what the chief spokesman of the Official Opposition said yesterday. On several occasions in his speech he said: “I heard.” There is an old expression in my part of the world: “Van hoorseg liegt men veel.” I also want to make a single observation about the hon member for Potgietersrus. He is truly a crabby old “bitterbek”. [Interjections.] He is an authority on deterioration speeches.

You are an authority on how to defeat Nationalists.

The unique 1988 festival year is rapidly approaching its halfway mark.

Order!

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I could not hear very well, but it sounded as if the hon member referred to the hon member for Potgietersrus as some or other form of “bitterbek”. The word “bitterbek” is not parliamentary.

Order! I was also unable to hear exactly what the hon member said. Would he please repeat what he said about the hon member for Potgietersrus?

Is it included in my time, Mr Chairman?

Order! The hon member is now wasting his own time.

I said the hon member for Potgietersrus was a crabby old “bitterbek”.

Order! The hon member must withdraw that.

I withdraw it, Mr Chairman.

The unique 1988 festival year is rapidly approaching its halfway mark. So far, Dias ’88 has given a new dimension to national festivals, as South Africans have come to know them. Before, it was the Afrikaner in particular who participated in our major national festivals; this year various other cultural groups joined the festival ranks.

According to Prof Pieter Kapp, a national festival is a traditionally festive occasion on which certain traditional activities take place. In South Africa most national festivals centre around particular historical events, and as such they are built around the sentiments of the whole nation, like national festivals such as the Van Riebeeck Festival, or just around the sentiments of a particular group, like the commemoration of the Great Trek in 1938, which was a national festival that eventually swept Afrikaners of all political persuasions along on a wave of enthusiasm. Afrikaners can indeed become exuberant on occasion, but for them a true national festival is a solemn, dignified occasion with Bible reading and prayer, and a festival message to inspire the nation.

On 3 February this year the Dias caravel dropped anchor in Mossel Bay. South Africans of all nationalities and cultural groups crammed the coastal town to capacity, but it was our Portuguese citizens who set the festival ablaze with their brightly coloured clothes. With their kiosks and stalls on the quay they made it a true festival of the sea. They came from all over: From Portugal and Madeira, but also from the southern suburbs of Johannesburg and from Pretoria and Port Elizabeth. So great was the enthusiasm of these people for the Dias festival that other South Africans, boycott activities notwithstanding, also attended the festival in their thousands.

After the national festival in Mossel Bay, the Portuguese in particular returned to their own communities and enthusiastically set about organising their own Dias festivals country-wide. Festivals were held in Port Elizabeth, Kwaaihoek, East London, Cape Town, Durban and eventually also in Walvis Bay. At Wemmerpan, near Johannesburg, Dr C M Portela, the Portuguese Consul-General in Johannesburg, declared that the Dias festival had not only rekindled among the Portuguese an awareness of their proud past, but had also filled their fellow South African citizens with a new respect for the Portuguese achievements in the past and had created a spirit of co-operation among South Africans for the future.

Like the Dias festival, the Huguenot festival also affects a wide spectrum of South African national life. Firstly, everyone with a protestant heritage is included in the festival; after all, the Huguenots fled from France for the sake of their religion.

However, the Huguenots were also skilled craftsmen, industrious agriculturists and people who were possibly more culturally refined than the average freeburghers in the early years of the settlement at the Cape. For this reason their cultural contribution was far greater than their numbers would imply. In 1688 the approximately 150 Huguenots constituted only l/8th of the White population of the Cape, and today Dr Heese estimates the French blood in South Africans’ veins at 14,6%. Yet it was the Huguenots who gave our viticulture its initial boost, who established the wagon-making industry in Wellington—then still known as Wagenmakersvallei—and in Paarl, and according to Prof Bosman, the Huguenots were also responsible for starting the South African dried fruit and jam industry.

The many French words in Afrikaans indicate that the Huguenots also enriched our language. However, it is in the field of church music that the Huguenots made their largest cultural contribution. Many of the well-known French psalms of the time are still being sung with conviction today, for example Psalm 38.

Unlike the Dias festival which, for the most part, is being organised only in the larger cities, almost every community in our country will commemorate the arrival of the French Huguenots in some way. In the same way that the Dias caravel may later come to be permanently housed in the museum in Mossel Bay, Hubert du Plessis’ Festival Cantata on the Huguenots and the many other commemorative memorabilia about the Huguenots will permanently enrich our cultural heritage.

From the beginning a large part of the media made matters difficult for the 1988 festival year. However, the attendance at the festivities to date has made one thing quite plain, and that is that culture does not allow itself to be dictated to. People attend the festivities because of a heartfelt need, or they stay away from the festivities out of respect for the feelings of those who do have something to do with the particular festival. Despite all the calls for boycotts, there have been no incidents at any of the festivals to date.

Even the commemoration of the Great Trek caused its share of discord. However, these disputes have already had various positive results. One of these was the conference that was held by the Historical Society of South Africa. An attempt was made there to show South Africans from different population groups that we are all part of the same history. We simply look back on the same historical events from different perspectives.

Seen in this way, South Africans can come to a new understanding of the historical moments that are still controversial for some of us today. The present generation will then be able to start making our history, instead of just experiencing it passively. Such an approach would mean that we could look forward to the commemorative festivities that will be arranged for the Great Trek later this year with great anticipation. There are already indications at this stage that even communities from those parts of the country that were not involved in the Great Trek in 1838, are enthusiastically planning the 150th anniversary of the Great Trek.

We can accept that the enthusiasm for the Great Trek, especially along the trek route that the wagons are going to take, will mount as the wagons near their final destination in Pretoria. The Trekkers may well have opened up the South African hinterland, but every population group that has contributed to the social and economic development of modern-day South Africa over the past 150 years is being invited to participate in the commemorative festivities.

In this way the 1988 festival year can become a unique occasion for uniting South Africans so that we will be able to face the future together with confidence. In this way these festivities could give a new dimension to our traditional national festivities.

In conclusion I want to express my personal thanks to Dr Walters, Director of Education in the Cape Province, for the spirit in which he makes his contributions when I approach his office with problems.

Mr Chairman, I should like to use the time at my disposal to speak about the position of Afrikaans in South Africa. Before I do so, I cannot resist the temptation to respond to a few matters that were discussed earlier in the debate.

Firstly, I should like to refer to the amazing remark made by the hon member for Sundays River, namely that “the Afrikaner did not trek in search of something”. I do not know whether that hon member studied history at school or at university. Those of us on this side of the Committee want to tell him that there is no doubt that the Afrikaner did indeed trek in search of something. What he was searching for was the most valuable and dearest thing to any nation, namely its independence.

He does not understand that.

Secondly, I should like to refer to what the hon the Minister said in this regard, namely that “we (that is, the NP) cannot manage education separately from the Constitution, and if we cannot manage education separately from the Constitution, it does not mean that we are engaging in party politics”. It appears that hon members on that side of the Committee do not really understand the CP’s points of view. Indeed, we regard the Constitution as part of party politics because it is a power-sharing constitution that has made a mixed political society possible in South Africa. [Interjections.]

Those of us on this side of the Committee want to tell the hon the Minister two relevant things. Firstly, we have the democratic right to amend this Constitution. Secondly, in our opinion the principles of the Constitution are contrary to our view of life and of the world. The way in which the Constitution is being applied in schools, as the hon the Minister stated, is also contrary to our view of life and the world. Therefore, when we take over the management board of a school, as we did in Ermelo, we are claiming our birthright to clearly state our view of life and our world view when we think the Government has obscured it.

Do you not believe in democracy? [Interjections.]

I do not have time to answer that now.

I am now coming to the most important part of my speech, namely the position of Afrikaans in South Africa. Sections 89 and 90 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa—they are entrenched—ensure the equal status of Afrikaans and English. In my opinion, these sections mean not only that the Government is responsible for the position of Afrikaans at official level, but also that it should also ensure that Afrikaans and English do indeed enjoy equal status in everyday life. The position of Afrikaans over the past few years has become cause for profound concern. Even the FAK is concerned about the deterioration of Afrikaans as an official language in South Africa.

The question that we are asking that side is what the Government is going to do about this in order to fulfill its cultural function in this regard. If the Government shies away from this by saying that the preservation of language is not a governmental function it is not, in our opinion, fulfilling its cultural task. In many countries such as Switzerland and Belgium, and Quebec in Canada, it is indeed the task, behest and duty of the government of the day to protect the cultural rights of people. However, in South Africa the NP is indifferent to the deterioration of Afrikaans. [Interjections.]

That is untrue!

Let us look at a number of examples. It is known that businesses often refuse to serve Afrikaners in their own language. There are even cases in which Afrikaners are employed and then forbidden to speak Afrikaans with one another during working hours. [Interjections.]

Until recently large companies literally had to be forced to advertise on television in a language other than English. The management committee of the Johannesburg City Council recently decided to ask the Government—the Government has not yet reacted to this—to abolish certain statutory provisions so that knowledge of both official languages will no longer be a prerequisite for the appointment and promotion of employees. Officials of the Johannesburg City Council say that it is a result of the Government’s policy of deregulation. [Interjections.]

While that side of the Committee is making such a fuss about this by means of interjections, I need not mention the events at meetings of standing committees during which some people insisted that the deliberations of the standing committees take place only in English. [Interjections.]

However, the burning question that I should like to put to the Government concerns what the Government is going to do to ensure that the principle of bilingualism is maintained when Iscor, Foscor, Eskom, the SATS and the Post Office are privatised in the next few years. [Interjections.] According to Rapport, 400 000 workers are going to be involved in privatisation. We are asking that side of the Committee to give us an indication of what their policy is going to be with regard to maintaining the position of Afrikaans in the event of privatisation. If the Government does not do its duty, and if it does not ensure that Afrikaans is preserved in this regard as well, it will mean that with regard to privatisation …

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

I do not have time to answer questions now. [Interjections.]

It will mean that 400 000 positions will suffer with regard to the preservation of Afrikaans.

Are you in favour of one official language? [Interjections.]

I am not in favour of one language. I am talking about equal treatment, as embodied in section 89 of the Constitution. [Interjections.]

In the hotel industry, and in the larger hotels in particular, Afrikaans is hardly ever used. [Interjections.]

If that side of the Committee is asking for examples of the neglect of Afrikaans, I cannot help but mention two further examples. In the SAA Afrikaans is being shockingly neglected. Time and again not even a word of thanks is spoken in Afrikaans at the exits of the airports, and then the NP wants to make us believe that this is not the case. [Interjections.]

Let us look at the position in the broadcasting services, a situation which gives a blatant indication of how Afrikaans is deteriorating in that field. Apart from the disregard for Afrikaans on M-Net and TV4, it is also being seriously neglected by TV1. Today the Sunday programmes on TV1 are mainly in English, and I want to mention two pertinent examples in this regard. [Interjections.] Hon members should listen now. On 12 April 1987, 120 minutes were devoted to Afrikaans while 380 minutes were devoted to English.

Now you are silent, not so?

On 29 March 1987, 95 minutes were in Afrikaans and 385 in English. [Interjections.] That is the track record of the NP Government. Unfortunately, it is also the neglect of Afrikaans and the undermining of the principle of equal treatment with regard to the two official languages. [Interjections.] That is the present-day Government’s devil-may-care attitude towards the position of Afrikaans in South Africa. [Interjections.] Theirs is an inability to identify the deterioration of Afrikaans as a problem and to do something about it. It is a reflection of what the present Government thinks, not only about the Afrikaner people but also about what is precious to the Afrikaner people, namely its own official language. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, this afternoon the hon member for Losberg again gave us a glimpse of the overwhelming fear in which the hon members of the Official Opposition live. It is the fear that they, and even their language, are being threatened by everything and everyone. [Interjections.] Apparently they do not have the ability to preserve their language themselves, and for that reason they now want all sorts of laws and regulations to protect them.

I want to assure hon members that the Government is not in favour of a law to protect the CP as such. In the time at my disposal I should like to talk about the damaging effects of the politicisation of education, and I should like to dwell particularly on the involvement of the Official Opposition in this regard.

We are experiencing a period of dissension, especially in Afrikaner ranks. It is characteristic of the politics of our day. The differences, and even the bitter disputes that are arising in Afrikaner ranks, are deep, and at times unleash violent emotions. The school cannot remain indifferent to the events in the community in this regard. For this reason there is a real danger that education will not be able to avoid the political dissension that exists in our community. I do not want to generalise, but there is always the danger that the political differences of parents will be carried into the schools and into the classrooms. If that were to happen, education would suffer. The hon the Minister has focused the attention of hon members on this time and again in this House, and his point of view is endorsed by educationists in our country. We should not allow our children at school to become political footballs in the face of adult differences.

Go and tell that to your supporters!

We as adults, and by implication hon members and I as politicians—I am also talking to the hon member for Roodepoort—should never lose sight of the damaging effects of the politicisation of education.

The question is whether such a danger does, in fact, exist. I want to contend that it does indeed, and that there are, in reality, disturbing signs that education is being used for party-political objectives. Furthermore, I want to elucidate this briefly by allowing the spotlight to fall specifically on the Official Opposition.

Since the founding of the CP in 1982, there have been deliberate attempts by hon members on that side of the House to have CP ideology take root in every sphere of our lives. [Interjections.] The CP has an all-consuming obsession with breaking the NP, and in the process it is attempting to seize hold of every facet of our community life in order to achieve a political advantage over the NP. [Interjections.]

That is exactly what we are doing!

The hon member for Overvaal should also listen. If he cannot hijack, he disrupts … [Interjections] … as he has already done in certain areas. Even education is not spared. To illustrate what I have just said, I should like to mention the following. In the first place I want to refer to their attempts to take over the school control boards. The CP is showing particular interest in taking over the governing bodies of schools. The hon the Minister has already reacted to this in detail, and I am not going to repeat it. Nevertheless, I want to say that we experienced it in the Orange Free State in 1986 when the CP openly organised the elections of control boards at schools. There we saw how they tried to encourage the candidature of the CP candidate in some rural towns by means of political pamphlets.

The politicisation of school control board elections, as we experienced it two years ago in the Free State, does not serve the interests of the child or the school, and it is definitely not reconcilable with orthodox education principles. In this regard I agree with the director of the OFSTA, Prof Niël van Loggerenberg, who said that schools would be in crisis the day politics triumphed over true interest.

A second example to illustrate how the CP uses events in education for political purposes, is the process of rationalisation in education. The CP cast suspicion, among White parents and teachers in general, on the rationalisation measures of the Government by labelling them a case of “take from the White man, and give to the Black man”. That is their slogan. The message is being broadcast for the sake of political advantage, despite the damaging consequences to our education of such a false impression.

The speeches made by hon members of the CP here in the House of Assembly are interspersed with disparaging references to money being taken from the White man and given to the Black man.

The point of departure, with regard to rationalisation in education—and the hon the Minister confirmed it—is that quality education should be maintained. I can give hon members very good examples, from the Orange Free State alone, of how the quality of education has been maintained and expanded through rationalisation. An example of how buildings that were unused are being utilised in the service of education and of our children, can be found in the orchestra training programme in the Orange Free State, which came into being, inter alia, through rationalisation measures when the old Pres Brand Primary School was converted to serve permanently as the Free State Musicon. This is a good example of rationalisation that is being used for educational purposes; unused buildings that are now being utilised apart from the savings on personnel and the overheads involved in maintaining school buildings and grounds.

To illustrate this I want to mention a final example, namely the founding of the Afrikaner Onderwyserskultuurvereniging. It became known towards the end of last year, when an anonymous document reached the daily newspaper Beeld, that such an organisation existed. According to the chairman of the AOK it appeared that this organisation—I am referring to Beeld of 10 November 1987—was not a secret organisation, but he did not want to disclose its membership.

Many questions about the AOK arise. Is it a cultural organisation exclusively for teachers, and is it necessary? Is it not possible for those teachers to give expression to their cultural activities in the schools and in existing cultural organisations? Do the existing cultural organisations not offer sufficient scope for teachers who want to enter the field of education? The question is whether this is not another attempt to bring conservative politics into the classroom under the auspices of culture and the school? There are a number of question marks. Is the AOK not just another instrument to get at the Government of the day and thus the NP? As I said in the beginning, the CP is obsessed with breaking down the NP, and experience has shown us that it will adopt every means in the process.

I conclude by expressing my thanks, on behalf of this side of the House, to those teachers who do not misuse their positions for political ends. They are in the majority by far; men and women who strictly adhere to the codes of behaviour of the organised teaching profession and consistently stand by this particular point of view. There are sufficient reasons to be deeply concerned about the opinions and the actions of the CP with regard to educational matters. We will not allow the CP to misuse education for party-political gain. They are welcome to tackle the NP on the political battlefield, but for the sake of our children and for the sake of South Africa they should leave education alone.

Mr Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon member for Bloemfontein East sincerely on his speech. I think it was of a high calibre and I can actually endorse every word he said.

Today I want to speak briefly on the revitalisation of culture. Time does not permit me to say much about the other side of the coin, namely the preservation of culture. Hon members will understand that the revitalisation and the preservation of culture necessarily have to go hand in hand.

As regards the preservation of culture, I therefore merely want to say that one is not born with culture; so it is not a genetic characteristic or heritage. One is born into a specific cultural milieu and one then has to acquire that group culture. Consequently it is extremely important that culture is not inborn, but acquired.

Culture is therefore preserved when it is passed on to the next generation as a way of life. Because of modern tendencies towards the alienation of culture, the preservation of culture and of the existing order by means of which the specific culture is perpetuated among all members of the group is obviously of paramount importance. Owing to the time factor, I am forced to leave it at that now and turn to the revitalisation of culture.

I could perhaps say at the outset that the difference between the revitalisation and the preservation of culture is splendidly demonstrated by the fact that we on the farm spoke about an “afterthought”; that is a late-born member of the family. In the modern idiom, taking rugby and the Johannesburg lifestyle into account, I see they no longer talk about an “afterthought” but about a “pushover try in injury time”. This is simply the same thing—the same people use that expression.

As regards the revitalisation of culture—I am not speaking about the alienation of culture now, but about its revitalisation—it is a fact, an inescapable reality which looms large, that we are living in a time of rapid and sometimes radical change today—a time in which it is becoming more difficult—no, impossible—to realise a way of life exactly as it was formulated 25 years or longer ago, or whenever. To attempt to chase after this is therefore a futile exercise.

Another very important fact—this is the crux of my argument—is that our culture, as a specific way of life, certainly determines our relations with other groups. It either results in good relations or it bedevils or even wrecks inter-group and inter-human relations.

In this regard I should like to refer hon members to this document, Die Suid-Afrikaanse Samelewing: Werklikhede en Toekomsmoontlikhede. It was compiled after an intensive investigation by more than 200 of our most eminent scientists. It is not a political, but a scientific document. I shall quote briefly from what is to be found on page 81:

I want to present just one more quotation from page 93, which reads as follows:

I wish I had time to quote considerably more from this.

It is precisely for this reason that I say renewal in the cultural life of every cultural group is imperative in order to ensure peaceful coexistence in this beautiful country of ours. It is true that in the course of history—not only since 1948 or since the time of Jan van Riebeeck or Bartholomew Dias, but long before—South Africa has developed into a complex, segmented and heterogeneous society. Although the various cultural groups obviously do not live in total isolation from one another, we are still separated from one another to a great extent, with little actual contact with one another, in spite of the considerable contact higher age groups have with one another, for example in the work situation. We have therefore become strangers to one another and have built up all kinds of misconceptions and prejudices toward one another. Oh, we know this. It is said, for instance, that a Black man or, as many people say, a kaffir, cannot think; others again say that White people are still exploiting Black people. This harmful type of prejudice has developed.

The fact is, however, that great mutual goodwill and understanding still exists, which makes improved and sound inter-group relations possible. The point is—this is my plea—that now, today, in 1988, we must expand the existing goodwill and understanding significantly through revitalisation in our cultural life—this applies to our older guard, our adults, our youth and our children. What I am therefore saying is that it should happen at school too.

Cultural revitalisation affects all facets of life, and will therefore demand not only imagination and insight, but also the ability to persevere with it. Every individual and every cultural group, in fact the entire population, should examine itself honestly and critically.

This alone will enable us to discover the positive aspects of every cultural group so that there is a willingness to eliminate negative, outdated and hurtful aspects. An interdependence exists and our fates are inextricably linked. This implies that a newly constructed South African society must be created in which the equal human dignity of all—White, Black, Coloured or Indian—will receive full recognition. The Government is obviously working on this. The entire population must be prepared, however, to think of South Africa as a common fatherland; we have to accept the factual aspect of this.

I should like to conclude by saying that, if we do not succeed with revitalised, improved cultural contact in inter-group relations—we cannot succeed with this if there is no proper cultural contact between groups, I would say from just beyond the cradle literally to the grave—we will not succeed with inter-group relations. If we do not succeed properly with inter-group relations, it will be impossible for us to succeed with the population development programme. I do not have time now to quote much from this Report of the Science Committee of the President’s Council on Demographic Trends in South Africa, but I do want to quote, for instance:

We also find, however, that there are large Black groups who believe, for all kinds of reasons, for instance those of safety, that the more children one has the better. Consequently a revitalisation of culture must originate among us Whites personally but also among all groups, or else we shall not succeed with inter-group relations and the population development programme. If we do not succeed in those areas, we shall not succeed in any area and shall become a fourth-rate banana republic.

I therefore appeal for a revitalisation in our cultural life, but then a revitalisation accompanied by a sound balance. Revitalisation in cultural life definitely does not mean the rejection or the destruction of a person’s heritage. Revitalisation must be balanced, and every form of radicalisation, to the left or the right, must be most strongly rejected and prevented at all costs.

I therefore wish to say, in conclusion, that we must fight for the preservation of the unchangeable and non-negotiable, namely what fundamentally determines our own culture; secondly the rejection of a culture of despair, pessimism and rigid traditionalism, such as we experience today too; thirdly the purposeful striving to adapt an own cultural life to the actual demands of the present time. Then, and only then, we will succeed.

Mr Chairman, I am pleased that the hon member for Langlaagte mentioned many of the points he did, because I want to expand on the subject he discussed.

He pointed out the lack of adequate communication between races in this country at all age levels and the dangers inherent in that. I was also pleased that he mentioned the fact that there was a need within this country to develop the recognition of South Africa as the common fatherland of all the people in this country. In fact, he took up in a sense from the hon the Minister himself who yesterday emphasised the need for contact between races at school level. I would like to quote a couple of extracts from his speech. He said:

Further on he said:

Then at the end of that paragraph:

I agree with those comments. Thousands of White parents wholeheartedly agree with him too. In fact, thousands of parents—the hon member for Greytown mentioned some important and valid public opinion poll information this morning—and teachers have actually voted to request that their schools be opened to children of all races.

I ask the hon the Minister to understand that they are, firstly, doing this in the interests of their children and secondly, they are not looking for confrontation. It may not be the hon the Minister’s preference to have his children educated at a non-racial school but is he not prepared at least to allow other parents to make their own choice?

The hon the State President has accepted that the Government does not have all the answers to our race relations problems, and probably no individual person does. However, surely it makes sense to allow schools that wish to do so, to try something different. The world is not going to fall in and the education system is not going to collapse.

The issue of identity is one that I referred to this morning and it is raised frequently. However, I would like to ask again if a Jewish or Portuguese child loses its identity when it goes to a White Government school which is not Portuguese-oriented, whether in language or in culture, or which is not of the Jewish religion. Should parents and schools not be able to decide what identity they want, whether they want a language identity, religious identity, a skin-colour identity or preferably a South African identity? The simple fact is that many parents believe that an education relevant to South Africa must include children of all races. They do not plan to abandon their language, religion or even their whiteness, but they are sufficiently secure and self-confident in their ability to do so in a multiracial environment. I ask the hon the Minister not to turn a deaf ear to their requests. Open schools could make an invaluable contribution to peace in this country.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Cape Town Gardens must forgive me for not following on his speech.

Before delivering this address, I would like most sincerely to thank the hon Minister of National Health and Population Development, who unfortunately is not here, and all other hon members who congratulated me on the hon the State President’s most kind award, the Order of Meritorious Service. Although I feel utterly unworthy of it, I will accept it in great humility not only in my name but in the name of the thousands of dedicated volunteers in our beloved land.

As the House will recall, I raised the matter of uniforms in my speech on 23 February. I would like to thank the hon the Minister of Education and Culture for the most comprehensive and far-reaching guidelines regarding school uniforms which were announced yesterday. These guidelines, which take the financial means of parents as a prime consideration, should go a long way to alleviate the financial burden on parents in this regard. Furthermore the introduction of the SABS into the equation is even more heartening, as is the fact that contracts awarded to stockists of uniforms should not subject parents to monopolistic practices. I am also happy to note that to allow for climatic variations the same basic uniform can be prescribed the whole year round with additional garments for winter wear.

These comprehensive guidelines are clear proof that the Government is not insensitive to the plight of parents as has been alleged in certain quarters. It is to be hoped that the guidelines will be strictly complied with by all concerned.

I am heartened by the fact that the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development last week suggested a national programme to be implemented at schools to combat the alcohol and drug abuse problem which has reached alarming proportions in young people. I believe that such a focused programme will yield positive fruits in the long term. Clearly all the details will still have to be worked out, but in this respect I am also glad that the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development has indicated that other organisations in various fields will become even more involved.

I was heartened by the fact that the Department of Education and Culture has for a number of years already been taking positive steps in this regard. Research is currently being undertaken on a youth strategy for Whites and a co-ordinated family education programme. There has been research in these fields in co-operation with Sanra and the universities. The four provincial education departments are on a continual basis giving attention to the problems of alcohol and drug abuse. Dealing with this problem forms part of the youth preparedness programmes at schools. School principals and superintendents of education are being kept informed by authorities from outside the department.

Children attend various courses and seminars inside and outside school to assist them to make responsible decisions. Schools take the initiative to organise information meetings with parents and children. Contact is made with organisations such as Famsa, Sanra and Lifeline, and these problems are extensively covered during teacher training programmes. Children with identified problems receive help from the school psychological services in close liaison with the Department of Health and Welfare, social workers, the SA Police and the Narcotics Bureau.

The Department of Education and Culture is presently researching as part of its total education strategy the implementation of a lifestyle education course adapted to SA needs. This project will of necessity become linked up with the programme to combat drink and drugs as was outlined by the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development.

Today’s world is a radically different place to the one most of us knew in our youth. Invariably there is an almost unbearable pressure on children to succeed at all costs. This quest for success overrides most of the basic values which were taken for granted yesteryear.

I believe that most of the pressure today can be attributed to the following factors. Firstly, the increase in living standards and the race to preserve and enhance them has in most cases prompted both husband and wife to take steady employment which inevitably has led to neglect in the upbringing of their children through no fault of their own; secondly, left alone, the child is buffeted between the twin forces of peer pressure and parental neglect; and thirdly the information explosion and constantly negative reportage in the media, including television, has to a certain extent imbued children with the idea that there is no tomorrow.

One should not be judgemental since many of these forces have been thrust on our society. We are caught in a world where cause and effect become so confusing that the average person and particularly the child scarcely knows what is truth and what is not. Films and television constantly bombard people with fantasy, thus further compounding the problem.

In this situation it is therefore not surprising that so many children succumb to drug-taking, alcohol and undesirable sexual experimentation, leading to a breakdown in the value system.

It is a truism that the teacher is increasingly filling part of the parental role. Whether or not society is justified in placing such an onerous burden on the teacher is a matter for grave concern, for teachers and parents should interface beneficially in order to provide the child with a holistic education.

Lifestyle education can indubitably play a most valuable role as an early warning system. However, it is not a panacea and it is to be hoped that parents will take it to heart to help their children to channel their energy into a well-balanced way of life that will enrich the family and society alike.

Training and correction starts when one is young. As I remarked previously, lifestyle education should deal with intensely personal relationships in marriage and other spheres. It should surely also include perspectives in sexual roles, the problem of the aged and the handicapped, unnatural social stigmas, sound responsibility and adjustment and suicide and its causes and prevention. It should also include perspectives into the incidence of mental stress, smoking and dangerous driving. In short, it should equip the pupil with an effective armour for the battles he will have to fight in life.

Lifestyle education represents perhaps the most significant step in our education system in the past 20 years and makes a real attempt to address all the fundamental problems which give rise to instability in individuals later in life, thus affecting the stability of society as a whole.

Lifestyle education is indeed enormous in scope and for it to be successful I believe that realistic academic parameters must be established with a view to implementing this course as soon as possible.

Another aspect that will obviously have to be addressed is whether the teaching corps, labouring as it is under its current financial disadvantageous position, will be able to cope with this additional onerous burden. I suggest that lecturers whose expertise is beyond question be drawn from a variety of fields to help alleviate the burden on teachers in close liaison with the department.

If this is not possible, I trust that their expertise will be taken into account in the formulation of this Lifestyle Education Programme, because the role of the teacher can never be overestimated. Too often our teachers are taken for granted. This is, of course, utterly wrong because, after the family, the child’s world revolves around the teacher. A sound teacher will set a sound example to his or her pupils, a quality that can never be quantified.

No amount of money will ever be enough for education, be it in general or own affairs. Given our particular financial circumstances, in which all of us must tighten our belts as much as possible in the interests of the country, the solution lies in the optimal utilisation of resources and manpower. For the hon the Minister and his department to have devised what has thus far been announced without an enormous increase in costs, redounds to the credit of the Cabinet.

The implementation of this programme will require the utmost goodwill from all. I believe that persons or parties who are not in a position to make fruitful and constructive contributions should rather refrain from attacking the programme for the sake of trying to score petty political points and, above all, that all professional jealousy and rivalries should be set aside for the good of the nation—a healthy nation in all respects.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Bezuidenhout has made another positive contribution to this debate on which I shall not comment any further.

I want to begin by referring to the hospital schools that have been functioning in various Cape hospitals for several decades. These schools provide for the educational needs of pupils who have to remain in hospital for very long periods.

Without any warning, the hon the Minister announced on 15 May 1986 that these hospital schools were going to be closed down. This decision came as a shock to all who knew what an excellent service these schools had, in fact, rendered to thousands of sick children in this province.

Upon inquiry I was told that the White Department of Education and Culture could not be expected to operate these schools, since 90% of the pupils in these schools were not White. I regard this as a very good illustration of the kind of unadulterated racism that exists in that department of own education and own affairs—coming from a Government which is paying lip-service to reform.

†It is frequently stated that apartheid is a crime against humanity, and I can only ask what better example one can find to back up this statement.

It is irrelevant that, on 27 November 1987—one and a half years after the announcement that these schools would be closed down—the hon the Minister changed his mind and decided that his department could now continue to serve pupils who were not White on an agency basis, something we had suggested a year and a half earlier.

The damage done by this short-sighted racially motivated decision cannot be undone at the mere stroke of a pen. The insecurity and turmoil caused in these schools, the distress caused to many deeply committed teachers attached to these schools and the callous withdrawal from needy young patients of their only source of education stand as a monument to the inhumanity of this Government’s racist own affairs policy.

*The second matter I want to raise is the new adjusted system in terms of which parents of pupils have to make substantive voluntary payments in the form of school fees. In this regard I want to make it clear, in the first place, that the parents of pupils are not the only ones who should contribute to the financing of education. Since the education of its young people is in the interests of the country as a whole, everyone should contribute to the financing of education, whether or not they are the parents of schoolgoing children.

School fees should not become an alternative to central funding, for that would mean that funds would not be used at those schools where a specific need existed, but rather at those schools where ample financial resources were available.

Secondly, I want to warn the hon the Minister today that the expansion of the school-fee system will undoubtedly mean that poor schools are going to remain poor, while the wealthier schools, those who can count on parents with a higher income, become more and more affluent.

In reply to a question put by me earlier this year, the hon the Minister furnished statistics concerning school funds in the Western Cape. The statistics indicate that contributions to school fees vary from R140 per child per term in certain schools to as little as R5 to R10, depending on the parents’ income. From an educational point of view, there is absolutely no justification for creating a system in which a lack of money prevents someone from receiving proper or equal education.

You are a Rip van Winkel.

Mr Chairman, I am listening to an expert …

You are a rip-off as well.

In the third place I want to draw attention to the fact that the system of school fees will not only affect the gap between rich and poor White schools, but also increase the gap between Black and White in education.

When the Government announced that it was reducing its contribution in White education, it was hailed as firm evidence that the State was serious about narrowing the gap.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

No, Sir, I do not have time.

†When one looks at the per capita expenditure by the State on Black and White pupils, and if one compares it to the situation, say, five years ago, it would seem as though this gap is indeed narrowing. Where the Government’s expenditure on Whites was about ten times more than that on Black education, it was reduced to seven times more in the 1985-86 financial year. However, let us see what happens when we add the voluntary parental contribution to educational expenditure by the State. If one takes a school where the annual school fees total R500, the per capita expenditure on Whites increases to R2 928 per year, compared with R303 for a Black pupil. This means that the per capita expenditure on a White child is no longer seven times more than the expenditure on a Black pupil but nearly ten, or at least nine, times more.

If one bears in mind that White school fees are bound to increase while Black parents’ ability to contribute to school fees will be minimal, the massive gap between expenditure on White and Black education will increase, or at best remain as it is.

I find it unacceptable that in 1988 this gap between White and Black is what it is. If the system of school fees is not going to assist in wiping out this gap, then I believe that this system should at least be reconsidered. If this is not done, and if the imbalance is maintained, it will correctly be seen as an act of provocation to every Black pupil in this country. As long as this system continues, the massive unrest and turmoil in our Black and Coloured schools will continue—understandably so, bearing in mind the fact that they find themselves politically incapable of changing this situation. [Interjections.]

In conclusion I want to state that one is struck with a sense of unreality if one notes that while Black and Coloured schools in the Cape Peninsula are in turmoil, White schools are continuing with their ordinary programme of education and extramural activities as though nothing is happening outside those schools. While Coloured and Black students are engaged daily in violent clashes with the security forces on and off the school grounds, while the baton-charging and teargassing of students are daily occurrences, our splendidly isolated racist own affairs education department is ensuring that our youth sleep through a revolution. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, after listening to the hon member for Claremont’s speech, I think he should actually have thanked the hon the Minister when he referred to hospital schools. Instead of doing this, he made all kinds of allegations.

I had the opportunity, for five to seven years, of always speaking after the hon member on educational matters in the provincial council, and I do not think I should react to his statements on Black education. To my mind this would be the wrong occasion, because education and training still have to come up for discussion and then the hon member can put his case. Today we are concerned with White education here, and the hon member probably does not know much about it. [Interjections.] That is why the hon member spoke about the problems brought to his attention when he paid his usual visits.

In the time I have listened to this debate I have found it interesting when the hon member for Losberg spoke. There were various interjections from hon members who said, inter alia, that the hon member’s statements were untrue. This afternoon I want to say, however, that one of the hon member’s statements was not untrue. He said that we did not understand the CP’s statements, and I want to tell him that is true. I really do not understand their statements. When we were discussing the Budget yesterday, I was listening to the hon member for Potgietersrus. He said the increase in the Budget was so slight that there was actually a decrease. I find it strange that an increase can suddenly become a decrease. Now he is referring to the increase of 10,2% in White education, but he does not mention the decrease in numbers. Between 1982 and 1987 the number of White pupils decreased by 11 449.

By how much did inflation increase in those years?

The greatest decrease was 6 936 in the Cape Province and in this province the number of teachers also decreased by 154 in 1983. Successive figures are 204 in 1984, 218 in 1985, 260 in 1986 and 330 in 1987. There is also an increase of 10,2% in the Budget, however, and I can therefore not understand how the hon member works it out that that increase has suddenly become a decrease.

I think I should return to what I actually wanted to talk about this afternoon. We have heard that the motto of the Department of Education and Culture is “In the service of the community.” If this motto is to be realised in practice, it places an enormous responsibility on education. I can say, without fear of contradiction, that the greatest injustice which can be done to any child is a failure to identify and to develop the particular abilities and talents he possesses. It is even worse, however, if he is underrated and not given the opportunity to attain his full status in society.

This society, this world in which we live, makes ever-increasing demands of our youth as regards knowledge and skills, but also as regards integrity, credibility and sound moral and religious values, in particular. Together with parents and the Church—I am referring to the triangle which the hon member for Brentwood spoke about yesterday—it is the task and the responsibility of educational authorities, in particular, to create the necessary structures and facilities to prepare the youth for adult life which awaits them.

The hon member for Maraisburg also referred to it this morning, but he said more about what was happening in the Transvaal. Today I want to refer to only one aspect in this sphere, an aspect of which we may justly be proud, namely specialised education of the educable mentally retarded in the Cape Province. The Cape Department of Education has done pioneering work in the provision of education for these pupils, and we are exceptionally proud of what has been accomplished over the years.

Special education for pupils who cannot hold their own in the scholastic field in ordinary classes can be traced back to 1917, when the first so-called “opportunity classes” for slow learners were established at Woodstock Girls’ Primary. In 1930 the first official special classes were established in the Cape Province, and at the same time a start was made on the training of teachers for this branch of education.

Special education has expanded to such an extent in the Cape Province since those early years that there are 500 special classes, with an enrolment of approximately 5 000 pupils, attached to primary schools. The joint enrolment of the nine special schools which provide for the post-primary requirements of these pupils amounts to approximately 4 000 at present. Consequently there is a total of 9 000 pupils who receive special education in schools under the Cape Education Department.

Special education is part of the Cape Education Department’s system of differentiated education.

Pupils who cannot derive adequate benefit from tuition in ordinary classes are transferred to special classes where they continue to receive specialised tuition, which provides for their especial needs, within the mainstream of education. This arrangement ensures that these pupils are not isolated either, but continue to form part of the ordinary school and its activities. This tuition is characterised by a differentiation in tempo and the adaptation of learning material, taking the abilities, aptitude and interest of the child into account. In their development, pupils are guided towards self-control, socially acceptable behaviour, career orientation and readiness to serve, in other words towards becoming people who can assume their places as worthy and useful citizens of society.

To attain this goal, courses are offered at special schools over a three-year period. Aside from academic subjects, pupils may choose from career-orientated subjects which offer them the opportunity of developing their practical and technical skills. Half of the time is devoted to these subjects. Boys are offered woodwork, sheet-metal work and welding, panel-beating, spray-painting and automotive engineering, as well as calligraphy and career-orientated optional subjects, among others.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: There is not a quorum present in the House.

Order! I have been informed that there is a quorum. The hon member for Kimberley North may proceed. [Interjections.]

In the remaining time I should like … [Interjections.]

Order! Would hon members please calm down. They have already taken up enough of the hon member for Kimberley North’s time. The hon member may proceed.

Sir, girls at these special schools are given tuition, inter alia, in institutional management, which includes cookery and laundry and home nursing, ladies’ hairdressing, copy-typing, window-dressing, etc. When the economy was weak, these children were hardest hit by unemployment, and in this regard I want to appeal to the private sector. The Cape Education Department is currently engaged in an investigation to determine the relationship between these optional subjects and the work which is available. I want to request that the private sector also make contributions so that the courses may be adapted to creating employment opportunities for these children. Employment opportunities are closely related to the prevailing economy, and that is why it is very important for this to be done now.

Over the years, pupils who attended special schools have made major contributions, and I know of at least two such pupils who represented our country as Springboks on the sports field. This is proof once again of what can be done if dedicated teachers recognise and patiently help to develop these talents. For this reason I want to say a big thank you to these teachers this afternoon; not only to the 500 teachers of special classes at primary schools in the Cape Province, but also to the teachers of the nine special secondary schools. I want to express my hearty thanks to the Director-General of Education, Dr Walters, as well as Mr Blignaut Olivier of the Department of Psychology, and all the other teachers who are involved in the education of these children. The Cape Department of Education makes a very great contribution in this regard, and in so doing it can realise its motto of “In the service of the community”. We appreciate what it is doing.

Mr Chairman, I hear that Natal is coming to the Cape tomorrow, and I also hear that they are coming to teach here in the Cape. I wish to associate myself with the previous speaker who said that many Springboks were trained through the dedication of teachers. The hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and I have a slight difference of opinion on the matter, and the amount we have wagered is R39. [Interjections.]

I should like to speak to the hon the Minister of Education and Culture about the continued existence of the Sammy Marks Museum. The continued existence of the museum is being threatened as a result of the possible extension of the Eersterus Coloured residential area. Moreover, this unusual and beautiful museum could not justify its existence if this extension took place.

The value and extent of the Sammy Marks property as a cultural asset cannot be overemphasised. I visited the property myself and held discussions about it with the Director of the National Cultural History and Open Air Museums, Dr Küsel.

As the hon the Minister knows, approximately 20 ha of land, on which the buildings and the farm dam are situated, have been provisionally declared a national monument, and we hope that it will soon be declared a fully-fledged national monument.

This historic farm, with its farm buildings and its collection of various objects, is an inexhaustible source of information for South African cultural history in general and for the study of the Victorian era in particular. I quote from what was said to me by a spokesman for the National Monuments Council:

The Sammy Marks property, consisting of the main house and other late-Victorian houses, together with the outbuildings, cow-sheds etc, is situated just north-east of the Pienaars River, and adjacent to the old Bronkhorstspruit road. Now it is intended to establish a new Coloured area there, and the Sammy Marks property is situated virtually in the middle of the proposed township.

Sammy Marks bought this farm, Zwartkoppies, in 1884—he was a great friend of President Paul Kruger—and erected the house and other buildings there. There is no other farm with such a variety of Victorian architecture, coupled with a farmyard layout such as that of this unique farm, Zwartkoppies. There are 45 rooms in the house, and there are several dams on the property which served as reservoirs for irrigation purposes. The other five residences also date from the Victorian era, as do Victorian-designed cowsheds and the network of canals which are wide enough to be navigable. The homestead is still furnished with pieces belonging to Sammy Marks.

If the property were to be fully developed, it would be the only existing example of a Victorian farmyard in South Africa. Because all buildings, structures, gates and moveable property date from the Victorian era, the opportunity for in situ conservation is so much greater, is so much more feasible, than in cases where museums or buildings have to be rebuilt and new structures have to be erected.

If this complex were restored to its full glory, it would not only be one of the best tourist attractions in Pretoria, but it could become one of the best tourist attractions in the whole of the Transvaal. If this were therefore sited in a Coloured area it could not promote tourism. In the report of Pretoria’s Director for Town Planning and Architecture, on page 8, paragraph 2, the following is stated:

Reference is being made to the Bronkhorstspruit road:

Mr Chairman, we know that in future tourism will play an increasingly important role in the economy of South Africa. Tourism is one of the world’s major industries today.

The value of tourism to a city such as Pretoria … Oh, Mr Chairman, that chap with the shiny thing on his jacket, who is talking so much over there, is distracting me. I do not wish to be distracted by him. Could you please speak to him? [Interjections.]

Order!

The value of tourism to a city such as Pretoria, and particularly to the Transvaal, cannot be overestimated, and visits by tourists to this museum are still increasing. The number of visitors over weekends is between 40 and 200, and approximately 70 per week. The siting of this museum in a Coloured area is, therefore, not advantageous.

I advocate that the whole farm, Zwartkoppies, owned by Sammy Marks, be preserved for our country as a cultural asset, and that another place be found for that Coloured residential area. The proposed extension of the Coloured residential area of Eersterus does not border on the original Eersterus. I can mention dozens of other reasons for this too, but they are not appropriate in this discussion.

This Sammy Marks museum offers an opportunity for establishing a model museum. In 1987 Sunday afternoon concerts were held here, and they were such a great success that five groups of a very high standard have indicated that they would like to perform in the museum this year.

If we did preserve this whole farm, the reason would probably be that this farm could be used for recreational purposes on the eastern side of Pretoria. However the reason is also that there are such rarities to be found there, for example a colony of nagapies (night-apes)—if they are not in Parliament …

Order! The hon member must withdraw that remark.

I withdraw it, Mr Chairman. That colony of nagapies is unique.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I just want to ask if the hon member must still withdraw that even if he was referring to his own party?

Order! There are no nagapies in Parliament. The hon member for Delmas may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I shall not react to that.

There is also a rare family of brown hyenas living there. There is also a collection of migratory birds from as far afield as Siberia. What is of the greatest importance is probably the rare occurrence there of what are called golden moles. Research is being done on these moles at present by the University of Pretoria.

I feel constrained today to appeal to the hon the Minister to have this Sammy Marks Museum, as well as the whole farm, preserved in its entirety for future generations.

Mr Chairman, the theme of the hon member for Delmas’s speech gladdened me in the sense that it was a deviation from the theme of the speeches of other hon members of that party thus far in this debate. The hon member for Delmas referred to moles. This reminded one of the supporters of a specific political party who go through life with their eyes closed. Earlier today the hon member for Beaufort West also referred in a speech to a saying which is used in his part of the world. I also thought of a saying which is used in the region where I grew up, the North-Eastern Cape, for somebody who has lost his way. They say of him that he is a “dream gone wrong”. It seems to me that this is also very applicable to the CPs, especially in the sense that they are a dream which has gone completely wrong. [Interjections.] It has become a nightmare.

I am very pleased to be able to participate in this debate today. I proudly want to use the first moments at my disposal to put education in the Free State and the Free State Education Department on display. Before I get to that, however, I want to pause briefly at a very interesting report which I read on Monday, 25 April, in Die Volksblad.

The report is about a high school in Sasolburg where a newspaper period of an hour’s duration has been instituted in which pupils get the opportunity of reading the newspaper. The school principal involved also says that he introduced this newspaper period because, inter alia, he believed that pupils should be widely educated and because good examination results should not be the only goal. This opportunity for reading the newspaper also offers pupils an ideal opportunity to learn more about world politics, government, economics and sports. It is also very interesting that an examination on news carried by the papers has been introduced at that school. The examinations are written every term and the marks are also reflected in the pupil’s report every term. The school has subscriptions to newspapers for all its 900 pupils, the costs amounting to approximately R8 000 per annum.

In an editorial in the same day’s Die Volksblad the laudable action of the Sasolburg High School is discussed, and I quote a paragraph from it briefly:

I want to congratulate the school principal and the school concerned on this ambitious project. I also want to ask whether the time has not come for other schools to consider doing the same. We live at a time when technological and professional knowledge is exploding, but at such a time it is very easy to raise a child who does not know what is happening in the world around him. That is why newspapers, which some people have already called the people’s university, should be read by as many pupils as possible at school.

As regards the activities of the Free State Education Department and education in this province, I want to say merely the following: The Free State is exceptionally grateful that education is an own affair. What is important to the Free State can thereby be preserved and cherished. In this way Free State education retains its own character and its own identity. The Free State Education Department realises that the strength and the future of the country lie in its youth. That is why efforts are being made to develop every pupil’s potential to the full. As a result of the relatively smaller numbers of pupils in the Free State, it is also possible to devote more attention to individual pupils. The Free State Education Department also strives to offer pupils the very best in every facet of school life, namely in the academic, sports and cultural spheres.

The Provincial Education Council of the Free State was founded last year and consists of 29 members who all know the province well, who know what can be expected of education and who also assist in furthering the splendid cause of education. With the appointment of Dr Louis van der Watt as the ministerial representative in the Free State, this province obtained a man, born and raised in the Free State, who has the interests of education at heart. Quite rightly and deservedly his offices are located in the historic Vierde Raadsaal in Bloemfontein.

In these times, when so many people are brimming with complaints, it is a pleasure to summarise the activities of the Free State Education Department in one word—success. There is definitely no substitute for success. For the sake of interest the following statistics reflect the number of schools and institutions of the department. At the moment there are 203 schools and institutions for ordinary public education in the OFS; four private schools; five technical schools; five schools and centres for special-school education; 82 ordinary pre-primary schools and one college for teacher training. There are 46 271 pupils at primary schools and 30 055 pupils at secondary schools this year. There are 5 197 departmental educationists occupied daily in the task of education.

The OFS is proud of the cultural achievements of the Free State Education Department. In this sphere the Hoërskool Goudveld in Welkom has received the award for the best school newspaper in the country from the Junior Rapportryers for the third successive year. The Free State has won the Junior Rapportryers nation-wide speech contest for the second successive year. On 19 and 20 May this year “Windows on Free State Education” is being presented. This is a mammoth project consisting of exhibitions, information seminars, song and music recitals. It will provide a striking image of Free State education in the service of the community.

The Free State Youth Choir was established in 1965 and is known nation-wide. The Bloemfontein Children’s Choir was formed under the patronage of Pacofs and held its inaugurai performance in the Sand du Plessis theatre before an audience of more than 800 people. At present there are two symphony orchestras in Bloemfontein, one of which is regarded as one of the most outstanding youth orchestras in the country. In addition, numerous regions and individual schools have their own string and wind ensembles.

The Free State Education Department also has proud sports achievements and is represented, inter alia, by pupils in the following South African school sports teams: Tennis, rugby, athletics, water polo, hockey, squash and cricket. Since 1987 the department has also made phenomenal monetary contributions in the service of the community. In this way R250 000 was collected to distribute Bibles among school-going youth. After the Natal flood disasters, R102 000 was collected, and to date R162 000 after the flood disasters in the Free State. The department also acted as host to various foreign visitors and other eminent persons.

I should next like to stress a few aspects of education in the province. The Free State boasts a percentage pass of 97,3% in the 1987 Matriculation examination.

Hear, hear!

As from 1988 a system of year-mark utilisation, which has been approved by the Joint Matriculation Board, will be incorporated with the Senior Certificate. This means that pupils will be evaluated on a more continuous basis. The Education Centre also fulfils a very important function in Free State education. Enrichment subjects are presented here for highly gifted pupils. In-service subject training for teachers and management training for teachers in promotion posts are also offered here. A very well-equipped library distributes information to teachers throughout the Free State. The department is achieving exceptional success with special enrichment programmes for pupils with exceptional intellectual capabilities. Pupils from 68 schools have already been involved in these programmes. Pioneering work is being carried out as regards the forming of critical scientific thinkers who are being equipped with decision-making skills and activities by means of which they are being challenged to develop new thinking patterns in problem-solving situations. For the first time in the history of education in the Free State these pupils are being introduced to subjects such as political science, philosophy, astronomy, problem-solving and the science of communication on a formal but extracurricular basis from Std 5 onwards.

Because the application of new technology cannot succeed without the training of personnel, in addition to offering computer studies as a subject, during the past two years 660 teachers, of whom 130 were school principals, were trained in the use of computers. A family guidance programme has been expanded to include 28 secondary schools, and 131 school principals and teachers have already received in-service training courses in family guidance.

Education is dynamic, and the Free State has set itself the goal of furnishing its pupils with the best. That is why teachers are given regular in-service training courses in all subjects.

I shall conclude by thanking the Director, the department and all Free State teachers for the splendid work they do. We have the utmost appreciation for the way in which they fulfil their vocation.

Mr Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon member Mr Aucamp on his positive contribution. This might be the first time in this House that one Free Stater has been addressed by another in English. [Interjections.] With that I want to convince my friends that the H in my surname originally stood for “His Majesty”! [Interjections.]

There is no question in my mind about the sincerity and the knowledge of the hon members of the PFP who spoke on education. However, what amazes me, is their simplistic approach. They say that we must get rid of own affairs and everything and then everyone will live happily ever after. [Interjections.] That is just as naïve as the slogan which appears in the Soviet Union these days: “Do not get drunk and you will not get Aids.”

*Mr Chairman, in one of his books the renowned psychologist, Dr Victor Frankl, described how, while a prisoner in the infamous Auschwitz concentration camp, he had noticed that one of his fellow-prisoners was having a nightmare. He was about to wake him when he realised that the reality was, in fact, far worse than the dream the prisoner was having, and he therefore did not wake him. I think there is only one thing which can be worse than the nightmare speeches of the Official Opposition’s chief spokesmen, and that is the reality of the Boerestaat, which the hon member for Delmas was setting out for earlier today.

Like consolidation, rationalisation is not always popular, because it has emotional overtones. Choices must be made between towns like Wellington and Paarl, and this can be exploited, particularly when one is dealing with the survival of marginal communities, like many of the small communities in my constituency at the moment. We therefore have great understanding for what the department has thus far done to keep our small towns alive. Thanks to staff provision scales, which have not changed since 1977, each town still has its own high school, and at the moment building projects amounting to millions of rand are in progress. I want to mention only two. At Dewetsdorp a high school costing R2,5 million is being built, and at Rouxville a hostel costing more than R2 million is under construction. Does this attest to a government which is unsympathetic to the rural areas?

It is an indisputable fact that education is becoming more expensive everywhere in the world, including South Africa, and what is more the hon the Minister pointed out to us that the number of pupils is declining. We have reached a point at which we must begin to realise that we have inherited a managerial problem from a golden era in which all was still well, an era which is irrevocably past. That is why thorough research was done and why we realised that we would have to utilise a certain amount more cost-effectively if we wanted to retain the same standard of education.

I, as an ardent champion of the survival of education in the rural areas, have kept an eagle eye on matters to see whether we were not being forced to accept a Third-World standard, as the Official Opposition has said. I wanted to ascertain whether the practical implementation of the policy of rationalisation was not lowering the standard of White education. For example, I took a look at the first product of amalgamation in my own constituency, namely the Bloemspruit High School, and I nostalgically came to the conclusion that the Bloemspruit High School was a monument to the concept of amalgamation and that in this process, in which three smaller schools were joined to form one large, beautiful high school, there was only one winner, namely the child.

I want to ask that other forms of rationalisation be considered too, for example that one mathematics teacher be used at more than one or several small schools in the rural areas as a first step towards bringing education in the rural areas within affordable limits. There may be other forms of rationalisation, too, and we are asking for continued research in this regard.

When the Official Opposition said that standards were declining, I asked myself what kind of standards they were talking about. Were they referring to academic standards? This can surely not be possible, because this is determined by tried and trusted criteria jealously guarded by organisations, such as the South African Certification Board, as well as the schools themselves.

I wondered whether they were referring to the standard of services, but then I asked myself what determined the standard of services. Is it not, in the first place, the quality of students recruited for education, and do we as Whites not have the advantage that owing to the declining numbers we can apply stricter standards of selection and therefore recruit students of better quality for the teaching profession? Once the student has been recruited, it also depends on the quality of the training he receives. Does he have a thorough knowledge? Is he equipped to ensure that the child can take his rightful place in the economic world? Is he equipped to interpret the child’s religious, cultural and family background educationally? I talked to the teachers in my schools, and I came to the conclusion that they were thoroughly equipped for this task, but that the education department did not simply train them and then leave them to their own devices, but that they were receiving on-going training every day through enrichment courses and techno-educational support services, as the hon the Minister pointed out to us. We are justifiably proud of the quality of our teachers—a group of teachers who can even teach well under a tarpaulin or a thorn tree. However, it is not necessary for them to do so, because they have good facilities; they have everything they need to give the best quality education.

However, I am not saying that all is well in our education. I want to point out a few shortcomings. Research at universities has, for example, indicated that 60% of our first-year students cannot read properly and understand what they are reading. I think this is a matter which should receive urgent attention.

There is a defective knowledge of the past and a limited vision of the future among many of our children. I therefore think that history is not coming into its own in our syllabus, as it does in many other countries. However, all these matters are not the result of rationalisation. I contend that it will be because of rationalisation that thorough attention can be given to certain shortcomings.

Rationalisation underlines one important truth which has applied for centuries now, namely that without a great vision and hope for the future, the future cannot be conquered. A well-thought out vision imbues people with the strength to rise above the crises of the present and explore new possibilities. After what I have seen I have every confidence in my education department. I have every confidence that they can raise a generation which fully meets the demands of an increasingly complex society.

Mr Chairman, I have very little time and I intend to deliver a half-hour speech in about three minutes. I therefore just want to say a quick word to the hon member for Umhlatuzana concerning his 15 minute attack on me. May I say that to us in these benches criticism from the NP is a badge of merit. Obviously, since I deserve so much attention from the NP I must have, in the words of The Sound of Music, “done something good”. So, Mr Chairman, I want to say that I and this party—certainly those of us concerned with education—will not be deflected one iota from the path we are following in the best interests of the children of South Africa.

Hear, hear!

I want to address the hon the Minister concerning the Bill which has finally appeared today—the no-longer-secret Bill—and I want to say to him that I am concerned about the way he handles the Bill from today.

Hear, hear!

The Bill has not been referred to school communities, whatever he may say; it has been discussed at a very high level. It has never been referred to the schools. It has never been debated at public meetings of the members of teachers’ associations. It has never been discussed in public. It goes out from the premise—the hon member for Umhlatuzana mentioned this—that because something was in the ordinances in the past, it was good and perfect and therefore can be put into this Bill.

I say to this hon Minister that we need public debate, and we need it very urgently, and I would hope that he will refer this Bill, as he said he might with legislation, to a select committee of this House which can call for evidence and discuss this, because what worries me is that it is already Order No 2 on the Order Paper for the House of Assembly. If the new Rules, which we passed this week are accepted, the hon the Chief Whip of Parliament has the right to say that the time limit for this Bill is “X” hours and that it will go through. I ask the hon the Minister, in the best interests of education, not to ram this Bill through this House at that speed.

Turning very quickly to funding, clause 102 of the Bill—hon members can have a look at this a little later—allows the Minister to determine tuition fees for schools to be paid by the parents of pupils admitted to any public school, and different tuition fees can be paid in different public schools. This will no doubt go together with regulations. Here again is an entire area in which very considerable debate needs to take place.

I hope that the NP caucus have at least been enlightened in regard to tuition fees. If there is one sensitive matter in every school with every parent of whatever political persuasion, it is the question of the payment of fees. What is the maximum figure going to be? How much will have to be paid? How much is going to be voluntary? How much is going to be compulsory? We certainly need a full debate on this issue.

Lastly, I want to say to the hon the Minister that a large number of the contributions concerning education in this debate have centred on the question of racism, particularly on the part of the CP. I believe that this hon Minister needs to look very carefully into the possibility of a programme of anti-racism in our schools. I would like to advise him to read the Swann Report, “Education for All”, which was published in Britain in 1985. This is a committee of enquiry report into “The Education of Children From Ethnic Minority Groups”. I quote, as follows:

We believe this is what the hon the Minister should be doing in South African schools.

Mr Chairman, as the last participant in the debate from this side of the House I listened attentively for two days to the progress of the debate. One thing became quite clear to me, namely why hon members of the Official Opposition cannot or will not accept that open schools are not NP policy …

Not yet!

… in the same way that Black majority government is not NP policy either.

Not yet!

These are the two main themes on which the NP was attacked and denigrated. The Official Opposition cannot and dare not accept these facts, because if they were to do so, the CP would be totally irrelevant and their right to exist would fall away. However, I am not concerned about the CP’s right to exist. Today I want to tell the CP again that open schools are not the policy of the NP, nor is Black majority government. We shall, as in the past, look after the interests of the Whites, with this difference that we shall also look after the interests of other groups in the country.

I actually want to say a few words about education in the extensive rural areas. It is in the rural areas where there are small isolated towns. This applies in the Cape in particular, and to a lesser extent in the other provinces. In this regard I firstly want to refer to rationalisation in education and how this affects the rural areas. I am grateful that the policy of the Department of Education and Culture is based, not only on realism, but also on idealism. It is the department’s ideal that, particularly with regard to primary school education, children must attend school from their parental home or at least be at home over weekends. The ideal is also for each town which has a reasonable number of children to have its own primary school and even high school. In this regard the hon the Minister has repeatedly said that his department would not like to see a single White school close down.

However, we must temper idealism with realism. If a farm school does not have more than seven pupils, maintaining such a school is no longer economically justified. If a high school has only 15 or 20 pupils, it is extremely difficult and expensive to provide them with quality education. However, the perception in the rural areas that schools—here I am referring in particular to combined high schools and primary schools—with approximately 120 or more children, are going to be closed down and centralised in larger towns is devoid of all truth.

I am grateful that the Department of Education and Culture is allowing the number of children per teacher in the smaller primary schools in the rural areas with between 50 and 99 children to drop to as low as 13 children per teacher. In contrast the corresponding figure for the larger urban primary school with 600 or more pupils, is 22 children per teacher. For the high schools the corresponding figure for the smaller rural high school with between one and 99 children is nine children per teacher, whereas for the larger urban high school with more than 600 pupils it is 18 children per teacher.

In this connection the Department of Education and Culture has always been very well-disposed towards the rural areas, and I want to appeal to the hon the Minister not to abandon this leniency towards the rural areas. The rural areas are very grateful to him for this.

I am also grateful for this attitude towards the rural areas because the rural school is the one anchor to which a town’s survival is inextricably linked. As long as a town’s school exists, the farmers do business there, particularly in respect of production agents. They participate in sport there, they have their cultural and farmers’ associations there and—very important—they also have their church there.

As long as this infrastructure exists, employment opportunities are created for a large number of Coloured and Black people living in these towns, but once a school disappears the town’s residents and interests move to the next bigger town where its children are attending school. The entire town’s infrastructure collapses, employment opportunities disappear and we are left with a large number of Coloured and Black people who must move to the cities to find employment opportunities. Maintaining the infrastructure of the rural areas is also extremely important to the security situation of the country. That is why the people in the rural areas are fighting so hard for the survival of their schools. [Interjections.]

There are rural churches that pay a considerable amount of money to their local school every term to keep the school going. These people are not ashamed to put their hands into their own pockets and collect as much as R70 per child per year for the school. That is why our newspapers and magazines also carry many competitions and contests to collect money for rural schools. In this regard the rural areas, with parental involvement as weli as community involvement—this is very important—are an example to some urban areas.

We are grateful that the department is not opposed to these schools luring needy children and children from broken homes to the rural areas to attend school there and maintain their schools. The only restriction laid down by the department is that the existing infrastructure cannot be enlarged at Government expense for children outside their own area. To a large extent they are succeeding in turning these unfortunate children into good citizens in the rural atmosphere. However, this calls for major sacrifices from the small communities.

This brings me to the second part of my speech, and this concerns how the rural areas are affected by economy measures applied in regard to the maintenance costs for sports facilities and administration costs of the schools. This hits the smaller schools hard, mainly owing to the smaller number of parents who, to a certain extent, must maintain the same sports infrastructure. In the larger urban schools these costs are spread over a larger number of parents. However, in this regard the department is not unsympathetic towards the rural schools either. I am referring here to a letter addressed to school board secretaries, dated 18 May 1987, in which it was clearly stated that schools that could not make the grade could apply to the department for assistance. The so-called 25% saving on administrative costs is also merely a goal, and schools which are already operating cost-effectively can obviously not meet this goal, and the department also understood this.

However, rural schools find it difficult to give pupils music lessons. Again we are grateful that the department is still making its facilities, as well as its school time, available for this purpose. We believe that when economic conditions have improved, the department will again give attention to this aspect.

Our greatest single problem in the rural areas is, however, transport. Rural schoolchildren often travel 300 kilometres or more every week-end to participate in sports or cultural activities. These schools therefore need a good bus, and the moment a bus has exceeded its lifetime, it must be replaced. Then the survival of the rural school is really threatened, because to buy a new bus for a school at prevailing prices is simply not within the reach of these small communities.

I therefore want to make an urgent appeal to the hon the Minister, if economic conditions permit, to introduce some or other scheme based on the number of parents at a specific school and the distance or number of kilometers which have to be travelled, on average, to sports and cultural activities. By using this formula some or other subsidy can be introduced for the purchase of a new bus by a rural school.

I am absolutely convinced that the money being spent on education in the rural areas is being well spent and will yield a good return—thirtyfold or a hundredfold. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to begin by referring to the speeches of hon members whom I have not dealt with yet. I shall be as brief as possible without neglecting them. We have come to the end of a very long debate and I do not think hon members would like it very much if I became long-winded now.

The hon member for Cape Town Gardens made a statement about the surplus of teachers in White schools. With qualifications, the statement is correct, but I should like to make it clear that we do not have an overall surplus of White teachers in White schools. Admittedly we do have a surplus in specific fields of study, but in other fields of study again we have a shortage of teachers. The hon member is aware of this. In addition we definitely have no surplus of teachers in the rapidly growing industrial areas. There we are experiencing a shortage. In the rural areas, where there are fewer job opportunities, we have the same phenomenon. I just wanted to put this matter into its correct perspective.

The hon members for Greytown and Pinetown spoke about the so-called open schools—the policy which the CP is opposed to. I just want to repeat briefly what I have said before. Hon members argued, inter alia, that if it were purely a question of culture, why did we not admit the Coloureds. The hon member for Greytown concluded that the norm we were applying was based on colour and race. In my opening speech I said that the best education—and this is recognised all over the world—was the kind of education that could be linked up with education in the home.

I am convinced that no educationist on the opposite side of the House will differ with me on this point, because it is true. Linking up with the education in the home is very important. This entails, inter alia, linking up with the mother tongue—this is only one component, and I concede that most Coloureds do speak Afrikaans—as well as with the specific community life and the prevailing culture. Hon members will agree with me that the Whites have a specific community life, in contrast with the Coloureds, when they find themselves in their own group area. The same applies to every other group, such as the Indians or the Black people. This principle is recognised throughout the world by educationists, and if hon members do not want to accept it, they have every right not to.

The Constitution provides that we shall furnish education within this context. I shall come back to the hon member for Losberg in this connection later. The Constitution, as well as our education policy, gives recognition to the historical groups and the preservation of an own community life for each of these groups. Hon members can go and verify this. I do not want to take up any more time on this matter.

For this reason education in my department is also provided as part of that same community life, in terms of the principle contained in the Constitution.

The hon member for Cape Town Gardens referred to buildings standing empty.

Half empty!

Very well, half empty. As regards buildings that are standing completely empty, I have no desire to keep those buildings. There is a specific policy that I have already spelt out in this House, and to save time I am not going to repeat it. The hon member has it, or he can get it from me if he likes.

As regards buildings standing half empty or which are not fully occupied, on the one hand it is just not possible to fill the building immediately with Whites, if it exists for Whites and on the other—as the hon member has in mind—it is not possible to take in Coloured or Black children either, and in that way improve the pupil-teacher ratio at the other schools, and so on.

However, the hon member is making a calculation. It is true, but I want to tell that hon member that it would be to the detriment of that child, as has already been indicated by a great deal of scientific research. For argument’s sake, take a Sotho child and place him in a White Afrikaans-medium school. The great danger exists that the situation will have a negative effect on the self-image of that pupil because he feels alone and because he will subsequently be unable to use his language fully, because the medium is Afrikaans. This ultimately has a negative effect on the child himself.

In America this was proved—the hon member is aware of it—when the Negro’s were enrolled in White schools during the period of forced integration. What came to light after several years? It was proved that it was to the detriment of both the Negro as well as the White Americans. That is simply the reality.

But that is forced integration.

It makes no difference whether it is forced integration or not! We have a policy which is centred on the interests of the child. Whether he is forced into it by my department, or whether he is placed in that school by his parents, the child will be the one to suffer, according to the educational standpoint prevalent throughout the world. My department pursues a policy in accordance with that standpoint, and I am sorry if the hon member does not …

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister mentioned the United States and the problems they have had with forced integration, which the PFP is not advocating. Does he suggest that they now have segregated education as an answer, as opposed to freedom of choice in neighbourhood schools?

I did not suggest that. He missed my point. I said it made no difference whether it was compulsory or not. The point of departure remains: What is in the best interests of the child?

[Inaudible.]

I cannot argue any further with the hon member; there are many hon members I still have to reply to. We shall have to take this argument further in a subsequent debate.

The hon member for Greytown asked about bursaries for students. The hon member’s argument was that a student with commitments, to whom a bursary had been granted, should not be given an unfair advantage over a student studying at his own expense.

Firstly there is no difference whatsoever between a student who studies on a bursary and a student who studies at his own expense when it comes to permanent appointments. The student with commitments is not given any advantage when it comes to permanent appointments. The permanent appointment takes place after the management board of the school has decided who should be appointed; whether it is a student with a bursary commitment or not.

As regards students who did not receive a permanent appointment, there is a moral obligation, and probably a contractual obligation as well. The department entered into a contract with the student after the department had selected him, in his matriculation year, to equip himself as a teacher in the educational system.

That moral and contractual commitment which the department has with the student must also be taken into consideration. I must say at once that I am also concerned about this, and at present we are looking to see whether even greater benefits cannot be created for those students who are studying at their own expense. It was therefore fair of the hon member to have raised it, but I am trying to put the matter in its correct perspective, and I tell him that we are at present investigating this matter. [Interjections.] As far as pre-primary education is concerned, the hon member asked me what the position was in regard to the admission of people of colour to pre-primary education. The same policy which applies to the admission to education in private primary and secondary schools and State schools applies to the admission to pre-primary schools; in other words, people of colour are not admitted to pre-primary State-aided schools. People of colour are, however, admitted to private pre-primary schools, as they are admitted to the ordinary private primary schools, where the management board itself decides on this admission.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the Minister whether, when he refers to private schools, he is also referring to the private schools controlled by the provinces, or whether he is referring only to those which are subsidised.

Yes, Mr Chairman. As regards the policy of open schools, I have already raised this matter with hon members.

In his first speech the hon member for Delmas referred to the Great Trek Festival and to my statement on the recognition, by the Government, of the FAK as the co-ordinating cultural organisation, as well as to the fact that for that reason their festival is being recognised. In the statement I issued I also said that we expected the schools to support the FAK Festival. To explain the factors which led to the FAK and not the Volkswag being recognised would take up the time of this Committee, and I do not want to do so except to make this one statement. The hon member for Delmas knows very well that the FAK decided at the time not to admit the Volkswag. It was they who took that decision and not the Government. I am not arguing that fact now, but the FAK took that decision on the basis of the fact that since the moment of its inception the Volkswag has been completely politicised.

Do you accept it?

I do not feel like quarrelling with that hon member. Please give me a chance. I did not interrupt him when he was speaking.

It was for that reason that the FAK said that it was granting affiliation to cultural organisations. Because the Afrikaner Volkswag, at its inception, was so totally politicised—I am not arguing about whether or not this was justified—the FAK decided not to grant them affiliation. That decision was made by the FAK. [Interjections.] That the Government still considers the FAK to be the official co-ordinating cultural organisation makes no different whatsoever to the situation. What I find lamentable is that we are involved in a festival such as the Great Trek Festival, which should pre-eminently bring the Whites in this country together. I do not mean this in a racist way, because there were not only Whites in the laager at Blood River, there were not only Afrikaners there. [Interjections.] The hon members know that very well. If they do not know that, they are disputing an historical fact.

I want to tell the hon members that the Great Trek and Blood River had significance, not only for the Whites, but also for the Blacks. This was a wonderful opportunity for us to have celebrated this festival jointly—at least for those who are White—so as to commemorate what was admirable in it. However it was politics—I want to charge those hon members with this now and say that it was the politics of the CP—which led to our having dissension in regard to this festival, and to my mind it is a great pity that this should have happened. However, I shall leave it at that.

I think the hon member for Sundays River replied very well indeed to the hon member for Delmas as far as this argument was concerned, and I thank him most sincerely for doing so.

The hon member for Delmas also discussed the Sammy Marks Museum. I am fully aware of the great cultural value of the Sammy Marks Museum. I was there personally; I walked through the house and we know precisely what is happening on the farm. I thank the hon member for telling us in such wonderful and striking detail about what is to be found there.

We are also aware of the possible development of the Eersterus Coloured residential area. We are keeping an eye on developments in regard to this matter. My department has a lease agreement with the trustees and the owners of the Sammy Marks Building. As far as we are concerned it is a wonderful asset for this country, and we shall take what the hon member said to heart.

The hon member for Losberg spoke about the state of Afrikaans. I want to say at once that this side of the House supports the hon member wholeheartedly when it comes to the survival and the preservation of Afrikaans, in the same way as we do not begrudge the English-speaking people their wish to preserve English. This side of the House adheres to its recognition of these two languages as the official languages. If there are Afrikaans-speaking people who do not display the necessary respect for the preservation of their language, I say it is wrong. I also say I would have it otherwise. However, we may not bring these language issues back into the political arena. We may not do that. However, I agree with what the hon member said about these few aspects I mentioned. We are doing something about it. There is new language education which we are applying in the schools in terms of the Constitution. My department is responsible for the taping of foreign video material so that we can make it available in Afrikaans schools. I can mention numerous examples of what we are doing within the context of my department.

As regards the argument raised by the hon member at the beginning, in which he crossed swords with me because I had said that education should, of course, be in accordance with the Constitution, I just want to put the following question to him. If what I said was wrong, I want to ask whether that hon member’s party, if it were to come to power one day—I know I am merely speaking theoretically now—would change the Constitution, according to what the hon member said again today; and if they were going to change the Constitution, whether they would retain the present educational policy.

According to our …

No, they would change it in accordance with the Constitution which they would establish.

According to that existing Constitution.

No, that is how simple it is. The hon member would apply that education policy of his in accordance with the Constitution which he established. Then he would argue that the education policy of his governing party was adapting itself to the Constitution. That is precisely what we are now doing, and it is absolutely correct. This is the case in every country in the world. [Interjections.]

My colleague, the hon member for Sundays River, said he was wrong when he gave those reasons as to why the Voortrekkers migrated. He quoted that it had to do with independence—to obtain their independence. That is correct. I want to tell the hon member that tonight when he has time—if he cannot remember it—he must go back and reread Piet Retief’s Manifesto. The hon member will find there that Piet Retief said that they wanted to free themselves from the British yoke; yes, they wanted to be themselves and they wanted their independence. However, he added something else. He pleaded with the British Government to allow them to live in peace with all the other peoples. I want to tell the hon member, if I have to evaluate the policy of the Official Opposition in places, as well as their statements in this House, that they are not on the path which the Voortrekkers followed and which Piet Retief described in his Manifesto, ie that they wanted to live in peace. [Interjections.] The hon member for Claremont began his speech with the hospital schools. I asked him whether he was a Rip van Winkel. It is true, of course, that we made a statement in which we said that we were not continuing with the hospital schools. The hospital schools are actually therapeutic help that is being given, and the hon member ought to know that. Apart from that, he is confusing rationalisation with racism. What happened here was a perfectly normal economic activity, and the hon member said so himself. [Interjections.] He himself said that the number of Whites in these hospital schools were not 10%. We therefore rendered a service, and we did so out of our own pockets. For economic reasons, and because we had to save in various other spheres, we said that we could not continue with them.

At the same time—surely the hon member knows this—we began to negotiate with the other Houses to see whether we could not render a service for them on an agency basis. It was when those other departments agreed to that, after I had held discussions with them, that we were prepared to render the service for them on an agency basis and that we were able to say we were continuing with hospital schools.

Did any teachers resign as a result?

Those schools had never closed!

Twenty four teachers resigned!

We never stopped the activities at the hospital schools.

Your notification led to 24 teachers resigning.

The hon member must stop this now.

It is stated in your reply.

I know what is stated there. I said they were never closed.

[Inaudible.]

Order! The hon member cannot hold a dialogue with the hon the Minister now. [Interjections.]

In his last speech the hon member for Pinetown began to argue about the Act. [Interjections.] He also quoted from the Act. That will be relevant when we discuss the Act. The standpoint of the hon member is that we should now refer this Act to a standing committee. I want to say to the hon member: No, we are going to debate the Act here. That Act was submitted to the provincial education councils. The provincial education councils sent it back. This Act was submitted to the organised profession and they are aware of it. We shall have sufficient time in this House to discuss the Act.

The hon the Chief Whip will not give you enough time.

If that hon member knows what is going on in the mind of the Chief Whip, he must argue with him.

Nobody knows!

I am telling the hon member that there will be an opportunity to discuss the Act here. [Interjections.]

The hon member also mentioned the aspect of compulsory tuition fees. I have already replied to that. I have already said we are not going to introduce compulsory tuition fees until we have studied the matter thoroughly.

It is child tax!

Only in six years time!

That hon member must leave it to me to decide when we will do that! Surely we would do it after we had also discussed it with all the parties involved. We would then take a decision which was in the best interests of education.

Before I come to the hon members on this side of the House, I just want to say that the PFP emphasised that we were holding back on the sports and culture policies. They implied that we had a hidden agenda, or that we had secret plans, and that certain things were allegedly going to the department which were racist and which were allegedly different to what I had said in that statement.

That is not correct!

We did not say that!

I said on a previous occasion that cultural policy was formulated within the ambit of the summary I had given the newspapers. However, the hon members do not accept it.

Have you read your English Hansard?

The hon members must give me a chance now. Surely I did not interrupt them. When did I interrupt those hon members?

It is a good thing Roger is no longer a teacher! [Interjections.]

There was a time when the children in that hon member’s class interrupted him to such an extent that he was no longer able to control them, but I shall control that hon member by means of the Chair.

That is really very petty!

It is not petty, but the hon member is looking for trouble. [Interjections.] I am now telling the hon member that in order to prove that we have no cultural or sports policy other than the one we mentioned to the newspapers in a statement, he is welcome—anyone is welcome—to come and fetch that cultural and sports policy we sent to the departments in my office.

We agree with you!

But that hon member must just give me a chance to say what I want to say. I want to go further …

Do not fight us! Fight with the Official Opposition!

It also applies to the Official Opposition, but the hon members must allow me to go further. When I say that we shall place this cultural and sports policy at the disposal of others, we are doing so as an exception in this connection, in the sense that we shall use our normal policy documents for internal use and only not make them available to others. I apologise. The hon members were right; it was the Official Opposition who said that. Once again I apologise. It was the Official Opposition that sowed that kind of suspicion.

It was the Official Opposition that sowed this kind of suspicion, and I hope they will now go and indicate that the statement we made was precisely in accordance with the cultural policy we sent to the department.

Allow me to say, on behalf of this side of the House, that I feel very honoured and proud to be the Minister and colleague of hon members and Ministers who made contributions during this debate. To my mind the standard of the speeches made by each of the members on this side of the House attested to research, study and a balanced approach. That does not mean to say, however, that the hon members did not put some questions to me in which criticism was expressed. That is fitting and proper, because at least their speeches were well-balanced. I want to thank each one on this side of the House for having done so in that way. [Interjections.]

I thank the hon member for Walmer for the wonderful explanation of the concept of rationalisation. I also thank him for indicating, at the outset, the real object of education at schools, and restoring the balance, because it so often happens that people think education is merely there to impart technical knowledge, such as arithmetical knowledge. Education is, however, concerned with the education of the whole person. It has been a long time since I last heard as accurate an explanation of the concept of rationalisation as the hon member gave us here this afternoon. I thank him for that very sincerely.

I also thank the hon member for Pietermaritzburg South for his special contribution. To a great extent I agree with what he said and I think, of course, that the universities have their specific responsibility in respect of students. The responsibility is of such a nature that the students can benefit fully during their period of study at those universities. I thank the hon member for his contribution.

The hon member for Maraisburg discussed special schools. I greatly appreciate being able to listen to the hon member, who was a teacher and who therefore understands the conditions in such a school. I should like to associate myself with the hon member’s expression of thanks and appreciation to the teachers who dedicate their lives and give their love to those children who are perhaps less fortunate than we are. We shall gladly investigate the ideas he raised. Of course there are technical schools that can help to a certain extent, but we shall look into the matter.

The hon member for Port Elizabeth North discussed the devolution of authority in education and also referred to the question of culture at schools and to the sports policy. I thank him for his contribution. As I said a moment ago, I believe that the existing structures will eventually, through a process of evolution, become more efficient than they are at present. Once again we are asking the provincial education councils to assist us with advice when they encounter practical problems. I greatly appreciate the meaningful way in which the hon member spelt out the devolution of authority.

I have already referred to the hon member for Sundays River. Personally I think the hon member made an excellent speech. It was a well-argued, well-balanced speech. The hon member said that culture was not a superficial emotion, and he was right on target, because culture is an extremely comprehensive concept.

The hon member for De Aar discussed parental involvement, and added to that community involvement. The hon member was quite correct when he said that the community also had a specific responsibility. He was absolutely on target when he also said that the community reaped the benefits of good education provided at the schools. I thank the hon member for his speech, and we shall give further attention to it.

The hon member Dr Golden spoke about serious music. I want to say that that hon member really struck a chord in me, because what he said was so true: Serious music does contribute to the harmonious development of the whole person. It is true. It is true that serious music moves the heart and soul, and it remains fresh and new and beautiful. I thank the hon member for raising this matter once again in this House, but also for his particular contribution and perspective. He indicated that we gave a great deal of attention to serious music in schools, but that parents also had a responsibility—that a love for serious music should also be cultivated in the home.

The hon member for Beaufort West spoke about the national festivals for 1988. He presented us with wonderful facts concerning the French Huguenots, and I thank him for doing so; they were very interesting.

The hon member for Bloemfontein East discussed the politicising of education. I can only say that I agree with him wholeheartedly about every single thing he said. It is true that the provision of education is a professional matter, in which politics cannot play a role, and I want to thank him sincerely for having spelt it out here.

The hon member for Langlaagte said that the revitalisation of cultural life did not mean surrender and capitulation. Of course the hon member is right. Of course it does not mean that one is capitulating when one reforms, and of course it is also true, in regard to culture, that we should open the gates a little wider; that we do find that we are being influenced, but that we ourselves can select what is in our best interests. Are these new influences in accordance with our philosophy and world view? If they are, we accept them, and if they are not, that is by no means surrender or capitulation. I thank the hon member for his contribution.

The hon member for Bezuidenhout spoke in a very interesting way about the so-called life-style education and alcohol abuse, drugs and the breakdown of family life. I agree with the hon member in this connection. Furthermore he discussed the policy in regard to the training of one’s own teachers for this purpose, and closer co-operation outside the school context. The hon member also suggested that we should find people from outside to help teach this subject in schools. My department has a standpoint that one should train one’s own teachers to meet the children’s needs, and it is true that a need exists for more information on the dangers of drugs, alcohol, the break-up of family life and so on. My department, as well the teachers’ training colleges, make it their task to inform teachers and train them in this regard so that they can do the work. If an organisation such as Famsa—we have very good relations with Famsa—does this work outside the school context, we have no problems with that, of course. We cannot but commend that.

The hon member for Kimberley North discussed the education of mentally handicapped individuals, and I should like to tell him that I also very gratefully associate myself with his expression of thanks to those teachers who are doing such very important work there. It was clear that the hon member knew what he was talking about, and I want to agree with him—on a lighter note—that one does not always understand what hon members opposite are trying to tell us. I agree with him.

[Inaudible.]

While he was talking the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning was sitting in front here, and I saw him begin to swell with pride when that hon member began to talk about the Cape and the wonderful things that had happened in the Cape Education Department.

[Inaudible.]

He probably had something to do with education in the Cape Province at some stage or another. I am certain about that.

The hon member Mr Aucamp discussed the Free State Education Department and said it could spell only one word and that was success. No one will take it amiss of me if I now, as a Free Stater, say “hear, hear”. I agree with him, and I am as proud, as he is, of every facet of education in the Free State. I really think that theirs is a wonderful achievement.

May I shout “Vrystaat”?

You may. The hon member for Smithfield discussed rationalisation, and I said to myself: Thank you for such a wonderful, sober evaluation, and for an absolutely positive speech on rationalisation and amalgamation, and I want to thank him for having explained it in that exceptional way.

I thank the hon member for having explained it in that exceptional way, and for having investigated whether rationalisation could not perhaps be detrimental in his constituency. The hon member discovered that rationalisation could not only have disadvantages, but also wonderful advantages. I thank him for that.

The hon member pointed out that continuous research was necessary to ensure the survival of schools in the rural areas. I want to give him the assurance that we are engaged in enquiries in this connection and that, as I have said, we shall do everything in our power to retain education in the rural areas.

The hon member for Graaff-Reinet closed the debate. It was a pleasure for me to listen to the hon member raising such an important subject as education in the rural areas. In this connection I want to say briefly that the Government will not allow the provision of education in the rural areas to deteriorate. We cannot allow that to happen. The hon member rightly said—I thank him for his level-headed view—that we must be realistic. He coupled idealism to realism and spoke about idealistic realism. That is our standpoint. I cannot imagine the rural teacher disappearing. We will have to rationalise, but that will take place while education in the rural areas is preserved.

That brings us to the end of this debate. May I conclude by expressing my special thanks to all hon members who participated in the debate. My request is that we shall continue with the good wishes that everything that is done in this country will be gauged by what is in the best interests of the child and that we shall manage education in that way. This must not apply only to pre-primary, primary and tertiary education, but to all education in the country. We on this side of the House will do everything in our power to provide what is best for White education, but we would consider it an honour and a privilege if we could also make a contribution to the education of other population groups. As long as that does not encroach on our own education, we do so gladly.

Vote agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Mr Chairman, this proposed amendment to the Constitution is consequential to the decision by the Standing Committee on Rules and Orders and by our House in respect of approving the new rules relating to joint debates.

Previously the joint sittings, according to the Rules, were restricted to ceremonial purposes etc, but could not be used for joint debates on the part of the members of the three Houses. We held very fruitful discussions when we debated the report of the Rules Committee, and I think any additional argument to substantiate our support for this would be mere repetition of what we said in that debate.

We support this Bill.

Mr Chairman, I have often said that when one amends the Constitution, such amendments should really address the main issues in this country, namely the aspirations of the Blacks. This side of the House has always been critical of the ad hoc type of amendments to the Constitution. Having said that, I concede that this is one of the ad hoc amendments to the Constitution that we support, because we see this as incremental progress on the path of reform.

I would also like to state that the acceptance of this particular amendment to the Constitution presents new challenges to those of us who are engaged in participation politics. We are using the institutions of the establishment to address the issues in the country. This will present us with an opportunity to articulate effectively the aspirations of the communities whom we represent, or purport to represent, to bring about a greater understanding with others who are involved in the parliamentary structure. This amendment will permit that type of opportunity. I believe that those who do not fully appreciate the aspirations of the people of colour—especially in the House of Assembly—will hopefully stop talking from a vacuum. I believe that at the present time when they participate in debates, they do speak from a vacuum without a full appreciation and understanding of what the aspirations of people of colour are. This Bill will make this possible, which is why we support this particular amendment as it presents a lot of opportunities. As I see it, this could help in uniting the peoples of South Africa.

Unfortunately the Black people of South Africa are not represented in a common forum at this stage. However, hopefully this may the forerunner for that eventuality and I think that should come sooner than people would like this to occur. We should do our best to allay all the fears of the White people in this country about being overrun in parliamentary partition politics by people of colour.

The other day the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council referred to the survey by Prof Rhoodie and he highlighted one aspect of that survey. He referred to the progress being made regarding the attitude of the Indian community towards the House of Delegates. However, I would also like to refer to another aspect which came out very clearly from that survey. When one looks at a survey one must look at its totality. This other aspect is that if we want the Black people of South Africa to abandon the current opposition to the Government structures in this country, mechanisms and methods will have to be found by way of negotiation for Blacks to become involved in Parliament. Anything less than being involved in Parliament will not be successful and will in fact make the road to reform all that more difficult. That is what emanated from the survey and this was the opinion of Prof Rhoodie.

And our opinion.

And our opinion. We cannot negotiate for Blacks to be involved around the periphery of Government structures. They should be involved in Parliament itself. I see this possibility with this particular amendment to the Constitution and I trust that if we all acted jointly and positively towards those objectives with the other race groups from the Houses of Representatives and Assembly, we can put South Africa on the correct path.

Mr Chairman, I should like to thank the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council as well as the hon member for Stanger for the support for this Bill. As the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council has correctly stated, this Bill is actually consequential to what this House and the other Houses have already approved of, namely the new Standing Rules and Orders for Parliament. In that sense this is only consequential and we need no longer debate on this.

I should therefore like to thank hon members for their support and for the fact that they have supported it in the way they have explained.

May I just say, in so far as the remarks made by the hon member for Stanger are concerned, that I think the issue at stake which we are all addressing is, in fact, the aspirations of all communities in South Africa. That includes those communities that are already represented in Parliament as well as those outside Parliament. That is true.

It is also true that these amendments before the House at the moment present a new challenge to Parliament itself, not only for one side to listen to the other but also to affect us all in the joint meetings that we are going to have in the future in order to understand more about each other on a joint basis.

I think it is also important to note that this is a further step in the constitutional development process of South Africa and for that reason it is important that this Bill be passed by Parliament at this stage.

I should like to refer the hon member for Stanger to the fact that what he has said about the participation of the Black communities of South Africa and the political and constitutional structures of this country, is very important. For that reason we have discussed, and at the moment are still discussing a Bill that is also very relevant to this issue, namely the National Council Bill. That is being discussed at present in the standing committee. The aim of that Bill is exactly what the hon member has spelt out in connection with the participation of Black people as well in the constitutional dispensation of South Africa in order to ensure that we eventually have a situation in which the legitimate political aspirations of all people in this country can be met.

For that reason I think this Bill and the development process we are engaged in represent important steps in so far as making progress towards our final objective is concerned, and that is to reach a situation in which we have participation by all individuals and all communities in South Africa.

I once again thank hon members for their support.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

Mr Chairman, when the House adjourned yesterday I was dealing with the type of statements that are being made in this House and I want to suggest that we examine the statements made by the Teachers’ Association of South Africa during the past 12 months. The greater majority of those statements relate to one issue, and that is that they want the executive director to spend more time in Durban. That is not a criticism against the administration.

The other criticism is being levelled at matters of a general affairs nature, that is to say salaries, service conditions, etc, where TASA and other teachers organisations meet with the hon the Minister of National Education, who is really responsible for the determination of national norms. We had hardly any criticism in the media but every year, when Parliament meets, certain hon members of this House make criticisms and they do not realise the harm they are doing to education.

I want to mention that when we meet hon members later on and present them with the true facts, they are surprised. I mentioned that there was a period in Indian education where Indian educationists were side-lined. There was a period when I, together with others, pointed out that our education was run in a Gestapo manner. I can give hon members one example of a person who went overseas and applied for an extension. The director replied that if he did not come back, he would be dismissed.

Certain hon members who are seated on the other side were in the South African Indian Council at the time and during the education debate they did not raise it. I am sure that they received the information, but they did not raise it, because there was a White director of education and a White Minister in charge of education.

White tutelage!

White tutelage and White obeisance and sycophantic attitudes to the Whites.

Things are different. The situation was worse. I want to say that teachers today are relaxed. They make more comments than they made previously. I think the most common type of criticism concerns leave for teachers, the transfer of teachers and the promotion of teachers. However, I think if every party of this House agrees that MPs should not receive representations from teachers, all will be well.

The Department of Education has been criticised for not listening to an individual. The Department of Education is correct in this respect. Regarding the criticism made by the hon member for Cavendish, he wrote to the hon the Minister and I think the hon the Minister adopted a responsible attitude. He has highlighted these issues previously this year. There is no doubt about it. What he said the other day was a repetition of some of the facts he gave in the no-confidence debate or the debate on a private member’s motion.

If a junior official in my department signs and somebody raises the matter and I examine it, and there is no change, one cannot blame the junior official whose job it is to sign the documents.

Mr Chairman …

Mr Chairman, I am taking no questions.

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council is totally afraid.

I am taking no questions.

There is more to it. Let me come back.

Yes, but the hon member cannot blame one official.

I will tell your fortune.

There are two people who are in charge.

Order! The hon member must not say that the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council is afraid to answer questions.

If anyone has a complaint, there are two people who are in charge. As a member of the South African Indian Council, the hon member for Cavendish remained silent when Gestapo tactics were used against our teachers. He had a forum like this one, but he deliberately remained silent.

He was part and parcel of it.

He was part and parcel of the system.

That is your contention.

But he was your executive.

Yes. There are reasons why the hon member took sides. However, no voice was heard. Nobody had a voice or the courage. If anything happens in my Administration, there are two people who are in charge. One is the head of the administration and the other is a Minister. Do not single out a man whose job it is to sign documents. It is not fair …

But who controls it?

The person who controls it is the head; it is a Minister, and the overall control is done by me. I take full responsibility.

Then the hon the Minister must go.

No. The critic must go! The individual in society who was part of a sycophantic crew …

Like yourself!

… when the Gestapo ran Indian education, and who remained silent throughout, should be wiped out from private bodies in the next election. The hon member should pay obeisance to people of colour and not regard a small trouble at the University of Durban-Westville as a holocaust.

You are reading my speech too literally!

I am reading your speech. The hon member refers to the University of Zululand. He gives us examples and says that because there is a coloured rector at the University of the Western Cape, there is no problem.

If any member of this society stays for six months per year in Cape Town and does not know what is happening at the University of the Western Cape, he is ignorant. If the hon member wants to compare universities, he should not condemn people because they happen to be White.

They happen to be afraid. That is the trouble.

It is not a question of being afraid. Throughout the hon member’s speech, there is an anti-White tone.

The hon member says in his unrevised speech, and I quote:

I do not think the hon member knows what is happening at the University of Zululand. Of all the so-called former ethnic universities, the worst university as far as campus problems are concerned, is the University of the Western Cape. Of all the former ethnic universities, we are proud of the discipline and the least number of problems at the University of Durban-Westville.

I want to concede with the sentiments expressed that when universities are mixed, there are going to be teething trouble. However, throughout the hon member’s speech, there is definitely an anti-White tone. With us there is no such thing.

The hon member remained silent when a White director was refused study leave overseas. He knows who was a frequent visitor to the fifth floor at the Esplanade Building. He knows that it was I, together with others, who had the courage to clean that from bumper to bumper. The hon member knows too well who the sycophants in the Indian community are. He caused that mess, because he is paying for the past favours he received in respect of his elevation.

The hon member should not use this forum for personal grudges.

That goes for you, as well!

I disassociate from anybody who wants to attack Whites simply because they happen to be White.

Mr Chairman, is the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council prepared to take a question?

No, it would not be fair if I answer the hon member’s question after having refused to answer previous questions.

Sir, I wish to come back to the Human Science Research Council. The hon member for Stanger mentioned this earlier on, as did the hon member for Reservoir Hills. Unfortunately the PFP is not represented here today. Whenever we want to adjourn, the PFP makes a good public show and says there is work to be done. They always make statements here for the Press. The Press people in Durban, especially Mr Nagoor Bissetti, should find out where they are today. Are they sitting in their offices or are they doing constituency work?

Maybe the party is disbanding!

Or the party is disbanding!

They are forming a new party!

In the latest survey of the Human Sciences Research Council, it is significant that campaigns against education have lessened. Tasa has not attacked us in the last 12 months. They attack matters of a general affairs nature.

Look at the media. Where there was criticism, the president of TASA officially informed my colleague the hon the Minister of Education and Culture that the Press was wrong. My hon colleague can confirm this. We have therefore had no criticism from the Teachers’ Association of South Africa over the past twelve months. When we do have criticism is when hon members come to Cape Town. It is done just for the sake of publicity. When the administration of the old SA Indian Council is criticised today I will respect it.

Let us come to the survey of the Human Sciences Research Council concerning the attitude towards political parties. In spite of criticism, the survey shows that the NPP is emerging as the strongest force in Indian politics in this country. [Interjections.] After the NPP follows the NP, which is also liked by the Indian community. The PRP and the PFP are not even mentioned. [Interjections.] I will deal with this matter next week.

Another area where I must compliment my hon colleague and the department is the promotion of our culture and the Indian languages. The hon member for Cavendish served with me on the SA Indian Council and he is a witness as to who opposed the introduction of Indian languages. These languages were introduced as a result of an instruction and they are playing a growing role. The question of cultural studies is a professional decision taken by professionals. I do not think we can interfere but if one has a professional attitude one can discuss it with the professionals.

[Inaudible.]

That may be a fair comment and perhaps I do not disagree with the hon member. However, I do not think we as politicians should interfere in the matter. The hon member as an educationalist should discuss it with the educationalists and convince them. I want to say that tremendous work has been done.

As far as the Nelspruit relics are concerned, I personally believe that something should be done urgently. I do not want to repeat the sentiments expressed by other hon members.

The Cape Times is reporting a great deal on education. Today they report on the increases in school fees which White children must now pay. Indian school children do not pay school fees. One must look at the reduction in expenditure in primary and secondary education. We are playing a role in spreading equality of education throughout the country. I want to appeal to every hon member in this House to co-operate with the hon the Minister of Education and Culture and to co-operate with the State by not making unnecessary demands which will force us to undertake unnecessary capital expenditure.

Here I want to compliment the hon member for Laudium, the hon member Mr A S Razak and the hon member for Lenasia East for the positive suggestions that they have made in respect to the teachers’ training college building in Laudium. They are not opposing the possible closure but they are suggesting that whatever we do, we must do through negotiations with the local community and the hon members of Parliament. I want to compliment them for their very positive suggestion that we could perhaps put the major part of the building to other uses.

I want to deal with a matter relating to our financial problems. I want to mention—I hope hon members are listening—that the Ministers’ Council went out of its way to ensure that more teachers were employed. I want to give away a secret: We do not have the money.

We have employed teachers and we need R10 million by January, which was not provided for in the Budget. We took a chance by employing these teachers and putting them in the classroom. However, if we do not have the R10 million by January we shall have two options and that is either to be in default with the Treasury—we will not get the money to pay the salaries—or to terminate the services of the teachers, which we will not do.

However, I think there is no shortage of teachers in this country; there is in fact an oversupply. However, there is a shortage in Black and Coloured education and I think the time is now ripe for teachers no longer to be employed on the basis of the colour of their skin. They should be employed to serve education. I think teachers should be employed in departments where there is a tremendous shortage, because if one wants to improve the quality of Black education—they will be struggling right up to 1990 to make matric the minimum qualification for Black teachers—they should use the graduates who are unemployed. The time is now ripe for there to be a decision to employ qualified teachers irrespective of their race, colour or creed. We are going to make an appeal for this.

Another point I want to concede is that in the past we—must remember—they simply admitted matriculants to teacher training institutions according to their aggregate. If the cut-off point was 28% they did not check whether one wanted to do maths or physical science. If a student had 27% and a distinction in physical science he was not admitted unlike the case in the admission of medical students. Our department, the House of Delegates, has made an improvement in the admission system at teacher training institutions. The problem is that there is an oversupply in the humanities such as English, psychology, history etc and there is an undersupply in the sciences. However, what I think we have to address very urgently—I think the hon the Minister will mention this in his reply today—is that according to the Sanep formula we have a surplus. If Blacks are 1 to 45 one must accept the Sanep formula that ultimately we will have to have 1 to 25 at the secondary school level and 1 to 30 at the primary school level. Our pupil:teacher ratio will have to increase if we are interested in equality in this country. If we think that equality means Whites and Indians only, then we are deceiving ourselves.

Let us face the realities. If one has one minister, one director, one department and nonracial education, one’s pupil:teacher ratio will be 1 to 25 in secondary schools and 1 to 30 in primary schools. One cannot avoid that. In order to achieve that one’s pupil:teacher ratio will have to rise and in the Indian Education Department one’s teacher requirements will drop.

This is also necessitated by the fact that there is a decline in the birth rate. We must therefore accept this and we must also accept that we were caught in the situation. Even the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition sat in the Ministers’ Council and saw the facts. What one has today in respect of temporary teachers is a result of his decision also. It is not a decision taken unilaterally by a Minister of Education and Culture. However, my colleague is now seriously examining the question of getting rid of this temporary tag.

I do not think it is fair for a teacher to be told that he is temporary. I think that teachers need job security and the Ministers’ Council is examining, on an urgent basis, ways and means of giving the teachers job security. I can guarantee this. Evidence of this is the fact that the Ministers’ Council has directed that teachers be employed, although we have not got the money in the Budget.

We should be given credit instead of being criticised, because I am exposing these facts, namely that if we do not have R10 million—which is not provided for—we cannot approach the Cabinet. This is because we are bound by the norm. If we have to be given R10 million, then the Coloureds must be given R20 million, the Whites R30 million and the Blacks R80 million. They will not give us alone R10 million. That is how it works, because they have similar problems.

However, I agree with the hon member for Cavendish that we do not have an oversupply of teachers in this country. If one puts them into one pool, we have an undersupply of teachers. It is not fair, if one is interested in improving the quality of Coloured and Black education.

A lot has been said about own affairs. I have indicated that own affairs does not constitute apartheid, but I think the time is now ripe for us to seriously examine own affairs. Questions should be considered such as whether there should be one Minister of Education. Previously there was a single department, is that not so? We had the Natal Education Department. Why the silence now? That is a fact of history; we had a single department. However, we still had apartheid education.

It was under the control of the Whites.

It was still White control, so it was all right; when there was a White Minister, it was all right!

I did not say it was all right.

There was never that type of criticism, that vociferousness in regard to having one education department, because it was accepted.

[Inaudible.]

If there were White Ministers sitting on this side, handling Indian education, that would also have been accepted. There would not have been that criticism.

I have given facts today, and I want to make an appeal to hon members for the sake of this country to show understanding for the fact that we have to improve the situation in the Black townships. If that is not given priority, this country can have no stability, progress, prosperity or constitutional solution.

This country will be reduced to ashes.

Yes, this country will be reduced to ashes. One will see that alternative that is too ghastly to contemplate. They start with school-children; with little children.

We are proud of the fact that my hon colleague is playing a role in the committee of education Ministers. We must show understanding for this role. It is nice for the opposition to criticise, because they are not at the negotiating table. We have levelled criticism, but the difference is that we, too, are at the negotiating table, so we have to face the facts when a Black Minister from a national state is sitting at that table and wants a fair share of the cake.

Therefore, if the hon members want one Minister of Education in this country, let us demand it.

That is right! And one Parliament for all the people!

Accept the consequences; reform has a price tag. [Interjections.] For example, we could have one Minister of Housing. We know that the hon member for Stanger is Deputy Minister is charge of Indian housing; that we accept without any shadow of doubt! Nevertheless I want to make an appeal in this regard. When we have our next debate on education in this House, I want to suggest to hon members that they go and sit with the hon the Minister. [Interjections.] If an hon member feels strongly that a teacher has not been given his study leave, then before he stands up in this House he should put the criticism to the Minister. If he feels he is not satisfied, then stand up in this House. In the next debate, let us first exhaust these channels.

Look at the House of Representatives. There is bitterness in their opposition, but they have never attacked their education. In the debates in the House of Representatives, and even in the House of Assembly, there is a complete difference in the style adopted. Therefore I wish to make an appeal. I have come down strongly on certain hon members, but what I have said, I have said in good faith, and not with any venom or because I sit here as a Minister or the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. There is one thing, however, that hon members cannot deny.

I am sure the hon member for Cavendish has a lot of faith in our overall inspectorate. He cannot deny that. It is mainly through their efforts that the quality of our teaching is improving. They are the generals on the field and the policy decision-makers at the upper level. The quality of our teachers is also improving and that is judged by the merit rating they are getting when they apply for promotion. The quality of our children’s passes is improving, according to the facts given by the hon the Minister the other day. The average symbol may have been an E but it has now gone up to a D. That is excellent and one should stand up here and recognise that. I do not like to use the word “Indian” education, but it is there as a fact of history. However, Indian education is rising. We have financial restraints and understanding should be shown for the reasons why we have these financial restraints.

The assurance we can give on behalf of the hon the Minister, who has examined this, is that we want to get rid of this “temporary” tag as soon as possible. We would rather tell a person that he has a job or he does not have a job. If one has a job, one has job security. However, if a teacher should not have a job, let us knock on the door of the Department of Education and Development Aid and let us tell them that we have extra teachers. They should not look at them as Indians, because they are humans and teachers. They are educated and they are South African. They should be put in the class situation. I would like to appeal to the hon member for Cavendish not to misunderstand me.

Excellent!

Yes, it is.

That is positive.

The hon member for Cavendish was very vicious with me, but I have broad enough shoulders.

[Inaudible.]

What I have said today was said in good faith.

Mr Chairman, I would like to take up what the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council had to say about the teacher situation. I would like to make my contribution in this particular regard.

No amount of excuses or sympathy from the angle of the Budget will be able to satisfy those parents and teachers who are without jobs. Even the hon the Minister of the Budget and the hon the Minister of Education in this House agree, like the rest of the House, that these children who became qualified teachers were not warned in advance that they would not be taken on as teachers. Their parents were not warned in advance either. I am not blaming the Ministers’ Council nor the hon the Minister, in fact his department has been put against the community in this respect. The community hates them and that is why the HSRC graph shows that there is a 20% drop in support for our education system. That is not because education is not taking the right direction, but because of this particular issue. I blame this particular issue for the drop in the graph. No blame should be put on the department and at the same time the Treasury and the Cabinet owe a duty to this House to allow the hon the Minister to employ those teachers who have qualified. They were not warned, their parents were not warned and neither was the hon the Minister nor even his department warned. Today the hon the Minister’s department has to take the flak because of this situation.

What would have happened if this situation had obtained in White education? I guarantee hon members that something would have been done immediately to rectify this situation. Yet today we are sitting with this problem. The imbalances that this community has had to put up with over the generations cannot be undone through a formula which has been brought about. The Cabinet should consider that there was an imbalance and it should not put the educators, their departments and its officials in this invidious position. This matter must be rectified immediately.

Now I turn to another issue, namely that no matter what system we devise for sport in our schools, if the facilities are not there, can we blame the hon the Minister and his department? I wish to quote the hon the Deputy Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture in this House:

I want to make a suggestion here today. I was the first one to suggest here a year ago that we have a director of sports, but I want to change my mind. There is no point in our having officials and a whole department when our facilities are lacking. The recent storm has created more problems for us. Hon members should go and see whether the playing fields are of a standard that our children are able to compete on. No wonder the standard of our athletes has dropped in this country. [Interjections.]

It was possibly a policy of the old government to keep the standards of the non-White communities lower in education and in all the other fields, but now we must be able to obtain the money and the resources; otherwise I agree that we should close down this own affairs department, because it is not serving its purpose. [Interjections.]

We came into this system on the basis that we would give it a trial but we do not want to be on trial. [Interjections.] We are being put on trial here because of a certain issue. The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council has left this House but I want to say that he should not defend the fact that the Treasury cannot provide the funds for this.

We shall have to find the money.

We shall have to find the money in order to try and resolve these issues. [Interjections.] What I am saying, is that this side of the House will assist him on this particular issue because we cannot allow this sort of situation to continue year after year. [Interjections.]

I want to suggest that in order to defend the hon the Minister and his department he should launch a full investigation into this entire question of sporting facilities and present a report which is factual. [Interjections.] We shall assist him because we know that our sporting facilities are below par in relation to the standards we want for our children. One cannot even play five-a-side or eleven-a-side football on our fields. They are either waterlogged or else overgrown and full of stumps and all sorts of other things, and yet we want our children to become the sportsmen of tomorrow. No one, even in this political age, would want to deal with that particular issue.

I implore the hon the Minister to appoint a committee to investigate our sporting facilities throughout the country. We shall assist him in approaching the Cabinet in an effort to obtain whatever funds are required. [Interjections.]

I now come to the last point I want to raise in this House. This country will not resolve its political situation if people of colour do not mix, and the right place for integration with people of colour to take place is in the school situation. The time has come for this to be done in this country. One can have a National Council or any other kind of council one wants, but if children and people cannot find one another, it will all be to no avail.

There is a fear today among Whites that they may lose what has possibly been theirs all these years. Our children will have to lead the way. I know that we have taken a stand in this House and I want to make an appeal under this portfolio that we should also take a stand, together with the House of Representatives, to open our schools at a certain level so that our children will find each other and face the future together.

We are actually here to debate issues in order to save this country for future generations. We are only a passing phase in society and in life, and we must now begin to put this into effect so that our children may find one another in a situation in which this country can be saved from the disasters we have mentioned and the other consequences we shall face.

I know that we must take a stand, and I should like the hon the Minister to give us an assurance in this regard—I know he is doing this—because this country cannot be saved from the onslaught against it if we do not start immediately. Whatever level is decided upon, whether it be at Matric level or at the tertiary educational level, a start must be made with integrating children so that they will be able to face the future without fear.

Despite all the good that has been done in this department, if we do not address some of these issues, it will all be to no avail. Money must be found to resolve the issues of the unqualified teachers, our sporting facilities and the backlog we have.

It was in this House that we said it was fine to bring in an A-factor budgeting system, but the reality of the situation has not been taken into account, namely that we have such a great backlog and so many imbalances.

I say that we should not have to carry on in this fashion for yet another year. That is why the hon the Minister and his department are being criticised. There is a lack of funds. Now that we have begun to get things moving in a dispensation to bring about reform, the whole issue is now hinging on the amount of money available. Did everyone know that that was what was going to happen?

I implore this House that we stand unanimously on the issues mentioned. Let us start mixing our schools at a certain level to save this country from what we feel will be the situation in time to come. We do not want this country to be destroyed. Children have to stand together, because they will be the men of tomorrow who will run this country.

Mr Chairman, I would like to take the cue from the last speaker, from the very end of his speech. I personally would like to agitate that our schools should be open to all, because this tricameral Parliament is a farce in space. We have to look to the future. We have to look at the next three or four decades and how we will be living. Are we going to live in this country in peace and prosperity? Education will create that. Sometimes the slogan was heard: “Liberation before education.” That slogan is used no more in South Africa. Now it is: “Education before liberation.”

Yesterday we heard criticisms from both sides of the House. I feel there was merit in the criticisms and the only way to get rid of these criticism is to call for a commission of enquiry. We heard yesterday from my benchmate that one man controls education and I believe that is a fact. The man at the top feels he is the boss and the relationship between the teacher and the scholar is completely affected. The MP who is elected in a certain area has a problem because communication is cut off. Furthermore, in the last few weeks there were directives from the executive director to the teachers that the communication between MPs and teachers must stop. This is most embarrassing.

Why?

Because unfortunate teachers are victimised. Immediately a teacher goes to an MP, that teacher is victimised. The teacher elected the MP in the area in which he lives to represent him or her in this Parliament. Now that communication is cut off.

Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon member whether he will agree that if an aggrieved teacher in a constituency approaches a member of Parliament, since he has not received satisfaction from the department, the MP should take that matter up.

Mr Chairman, I fully agree. That is the job of MPs.

Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

Not from that hon member. [Interjections.] I think I will take that question, Mr Chairman.

I appreciate the hon member’s change of heart, Mr Chairman. Will the hon member agree that in terms of the present policy in the education department, even before the existence of a tricameral Parliament, teachers were precluded from approaching MPs and public representatives?

Mr Chairman, I do not think that policy issues are relevant to this. The policies must be changed.

State the present policy.

Mr Chairman, we talk of better education. How do we achieve this? The reply given by the hon the Minister yesterday is that the answer is money. I do not think it is money. It is the input we make. I agree 100% with the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council that we must make a positive input. How do we make a positive input? It is by way of communication. When communication is cut off, it always has a negative effect. That is what is happening in this House. I personally feel that it is not the hon the Minister at the top who controls education; it is somebody else. The hon the Minister must let us know who that person is.

We have a cultural division. This cultural division should be used to unite our people. Unfortunately this division is used to divide our community.

We have to come to Parliament, and some people feel that Parliament is a mosque. Some people feel that Parliament is a church or a temple. Religious beliefs are flouted in this House. A is a certain group and B is a certain group. Let us unite rather than attack each other. It is not fair to attack each other.

An amount of R400 000 has been appropriated to promote culture. I do not think this is enough. We have a cultural heritage that we Indians were born with. To get this cultural promotion going, we have appointed a Deputy Director. I was told that this bright lady does not have any direct say in these matters. What is happening? This lady has no say in running the department. She is just a figurehead. Who is running the department?

During the last year or so, we purchased the Odeon cinema for R1,5 million.

What is the actual price?

That is the actual price. We have invested a vast sum of money, but up to now this project has been standing still. There are no activities taking place. We have invested that money, so why do we not give the good lady a free rein to promote culture? Why is there a stopping point?

The lady is frustrated. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, we can go on and on about Indian education. I believe this situation calls for a commission of inquiry.

Hear, hear!

We should clean the department and make a fresh start.

Mr Chairman, I wish to compliment the hon the Minister and his department for the excellent work they have accomplished in this very difficult period with many constraints, some of them very difficult ones. As long as we have schools, children, teachers, parents and the department, there will always be criticism, because in this area we are dealing with human beings. Not everybody can be satisfied at all times.

I think we must also talk about the progress in the education department that we have achieved in this short space of time. I also want to highlight what the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition had said, namely that until and unless the financial procedure of allocations of funds be properly addressed, we will all have more problems. I agree with this. I also agree with the hon member for Red Hill who said that there must be a concerted effort in order to achieve this. Until we have our financial restraints adjusted, we will always have a shortfall. These shortfalls will, of course, invite a lot of criticism and difficulties in the smooth running of our department.

I also agree with the hon member for Red Hill when he said that sports and physical training in our schools should receive top priority. How are we going to do this? I know we cannot blame the recent floods for everything, but many of our school grounds are in a very chaotic condition. Because our children cannot go into the fields and get rid of their energy, they are now side-stepping this. They are partaking in all sorts of mischief-making. I believe consideration should be given to this, so that we can remove our children from these undesirable conditions.

Although very little has been mentioned about school sports, athletics and the vernacular languages, tremendous progress in these directions have been noted, especially if one hears our little ones trying to speak their own language. However, I want to say that much more can be achieved if more efforts are made in this direction. I think the hon member for Cavendish did mention that we must not try to take this away by introducing the other subjects that he mentioned.

To ensure that all our people are employed, a programme has already been drawn up to direct our students to the technical fields because academically qualified people are plentiful in this country, especially in the Indian community. From the point of view of our country’s manpower needs this issue should also be addressed again. The technical training of our community is of vital importance and I believe all efforts should be made to encourage it. I have no doubt that the hon the Minister will say that much is being done in this regard and that our students and children are being directed to the right areas, but I believe much more should be done in this regard. The future of our country depends on our ability to extract the natural resources in the southern tip of Africa. I think this is what we will all look for ultimately. The preparation of our children for their survival in this country is after all the most important consideration. I think the consolidation of the many elements that will help the people to achieve this goal, is a worthy cause. I want to make an earnest appeal that we should not lose our direction in so far as the preparation of our children for the future is concerned.

Coming back to my own constituency I want to mention the school building programme in the Pinetown region. It must not be underestimated as there is a great movement of people to the areas of Pinetown and New Germany for their industry and commerce. The areas are growing rapidly and therefore the importance of the schools in those areas must not be overlooked.

I also want to make an appeal that hon members should visit the Nelspruit finds so that we can see it for ourselves. I think we are all in agreement that this matter must not be left unattended and that a very strong representation must be made in this regard.

Finally I want to ask the hon the Minister and his department to look into the question of the transport of school children in the Pinetown, Wyebank, Motala Farm and Mariannhill areas. There are many problems facing our pupils, teachers and parents which I hope will be resolved soon, particularly in the case of the Motala Farm children who attend the Pinetown school. The acquisition of the Motala Farm school site to replace the Pinetown school should not be delayed any further because work has already started on the Pinetown school and it is very undesirable for children to be in such a dangerous situation where huge machines are being used. Major roadworks have also been started in that area. I know that much has already been done but as the representative of that constituency I feel it my duty to mention it again.

I also wish to place on record my appreciation of the hon the Minister and his department for the swift manner in which they granted permission for the use of the schools in Mariannhill during the flood disaster. I appreciate this and the people who occupied the premises were most grateful. I wish to mention their appreciation in this regard.

Mr Chairman, coming in at the tail-end of the debate, I unfortunately will have to leave out certain matters that I wished to discuss as a result of the time constraint. At the very outset I want to comment on a petition that is being circulated by Tasa and the Natal Co-ordinating Committee of Education Committees. The idea is to petition the hon the State President with regard to the second school-term and specifically 16 June.

In principle I agree with them, because I too believe that to circumvent 16 June the children there will be paying the price. We who come from the Highveld know that that period when the children will be returning to school is about the coldest period in the Transvaal. It is unfair that because of our political beliefs we make these innocent children suffer.

I believe that it is necessary for us to have a rethink about this. If 16 June is considered to be a day when tensions will rise, which in turn will lead to problems, then the schools should be closed on that day. We have enough holidays in May so give them 16 June, but do not let our children suffer. If we feel the bitter cold which bites into us, what about these innocent children who come from families who live below the poverty datum line; how do we expect them to feel? Some of them even go to school without shoes.

I therefore appeal to the hon the Minister on human grounds, if nothing else, to reconsider having these adjustments from the 1989 school calendar onwards.

I am told that the second terms consists of only 39 school days. This is The children have to be prepared for examinations in that period. How does this happen? I want to tell the hon the Minister that this is a matter that needs his urgent attention.

It is receiving attention.

Then let us hear about it. Another aspect I should like to talk about is the question of school uniforms. We may be told that it is not compulsory for children to be attired in school uniforms. However, in cases where children are required by schools and their principals to wear school uniforms my appeal is that we find a common uniform, a “uniform” uniform if I may call it that. Here the distinguishing factor could be a school tie and a monogram. Uniforms are unnecessary and burdensome. It is necessary to have children neatly, and not expensively, attired.

What about the school funds?

Mr Chairman, I am coming to school funds. I want to thank the hon member for Newholme for thanking me.

As at present authority has to be sought to spend amounts in excess of R500. I speak on behalf of the education committees in Actonville. I do not know what the ideas of members in other areas are, but in Benoni it is believed that this is cumbersome. It deters members of the education committees, who are in fact glorified school fund-raising committees, from collecting money because inevitably when money is collected it has to be deposited in the school-fund account. Money collected from parents should be used for the benefit of those children, without recourse to the department being necessary. Provided there are checks and balances I believe that the members of those education committees, together with the management of the school, should be permitted to use that money in the interests of those children whose parents have paid that money.

On a more parochial note I want to discuss school halls in Actonville. Fortunately we have a situation where the Liverpool Secondary School and the Benoni Primary School share a common boundary.

One hall can be provided there which both schools can use. Similarly, the Pioneer Primary School and the Actonville Primary School share a common boundary. There, too, one hall will suffice. However, when will this be done? At present the situation is such that the schools have to schedule their awards evenings for nights when the town hall is available. We do not even have a civic hall in Actonville. The suggestion was made by, I think, the hon member for Actonville that the department could, in consultation and in conjunction with the local municipality, erect a hall that would cater for the schools and the community. This is exactly what we need. However, it is initiative that is required.

Hon members have spoken about leave applications that have not been granted. Instances have been drawn to my attention of members of the teaching fraternity requesting leave to go on pilgrimage, and being turned down.

Shame!

I shall prove this point. As recently as yesterday I had a call from the Transvaal concerning the fact that three teachers have had their applications turned down.

Were they from the same school?

No, not from the same school.

Mr Chairman, to go on pilgrimage—I am not going to talk about religion, as the hon member for Isipingo mentioned —however, to go on pilgrimage is the realisation of a dream of a lifetime.

It is one of the pillars of Islam.

Let us find ourselves in this regard. Let us see where we can assist these educators. Are we going to keep them unhappy until the next leave is granted? That teacher is going to be useless in the classroom situation; he is disgruntled and dissatisfied and will not do the job of work.

Unfortunately the hon the Minister’s speech does not refer to the sports policy. The hon member for Red Hill came out quite strongly in this regard, and I do not wish to elaborate too much on it, but all I would like to ask is: Why there was no mention of the schools sports policy? Does this not form an important aspect of the Department’s policy any longer?

We know—we discussed this at length last year—that it was conceded that the department was coming out with a new, bold policy. I want to know how many professionally qualified coaches have been appointed, or their services engaged by the department to date.

Mr Chairman, I will accept your ruling not to mention public servants in the debate because they are not here and they are unable to defend themselves, but it is also a tragedy when public servants are allowed to hide behind the hon the Minister. We are told that if there is anything wrong, the hon the Minister has to answer for it.

If anyone’s head has to roll, it is the hon the Minister’s head that has to roll. This is unfair.

Order! I regret that the hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise to afford the hon member the opportunity to make sure that everything is fair!

I thank the hon member for being fair to me!

Mr Chairman, I shall not mention names; as I said, I shall adhere to the ruling. However, the hon the Minister will know whom I am talking about when I place on record my representations made to the hon the Minister and his department.

A teacher applied for promotion, was successful and was placed in the Singh Primary School in Germiston. That school has been closed and its children and the teachers seconded to Palm Ridge, which is in the Heidelberg district. Ever since then I have been talking to the hon the Minister and making representations on behalf of the teacher to be either transferred or seconded to a school in Actonville, for the reason that I know that he did not complete his two years in the promotion post.

That is a technicality, but the fact that he did not ask for the school to be closed is also a technicality. His appointment was at a school which was a 20 km round trip away. Palm Ridge is a 120 km round trip from Actonville and surely that teacher is not receiving any SNT? It would not have been difficult for that teacher to have been transferred or seconded to Actonville.

I accepted the hon the Minister’s word before we went on Easter recess. Apparently he had a discussion with his senior officials in the department and the hon the Minister said to me that the teacher cannot be transferred because of this technical problem, but due to the situation that prevails and the kilometres that have to be travelled, the teacher would be seconded to Pioneer Primary in Actonville. Taking the queue from the hon the Minister, I had no reason to doubt him for he is an honourable man. I relayed that information to the teacher and he was overjoyed. He was going to save a few pennies.

However, during the holiday no information was received about the secondment. I then telephoned—I must have made dozens of calls to Durban, to the department, only to be shunted from pillar to post. Fortunately the hon the Minister was able to tell me that the matter had been referred to Durban and he did not know why it was not attended to.

Subsequently I spoke to a very senior official of the department in Durban, who was unaware that Palm Ridge was very far from Singh Primary. He thought it was next door, but when I mentioned to him that it was not 20 km but a 120 km that this man had to travel, he admitted that there was merit in the request for secondment. Subsequent to that I spoke to another senior official, only to be told that it is departmental policy that a teacher must finish his two years in a promotion post.

I believe that the department should not always throw the book at us. We have that in general affairs, where hon members from this House often request Ministers to forget that book. We are here to serve a community and not to apply the law rigidly. If the law had to be rigidly applied, none of us would be voted into office—I guarantee hon members that. We are here to serve the interest of the community. I do believe that what the hon the Minister told me was the information that was conveyed to him, about that teacher being seconded. Now how do I feel? How do I look in the eyes of that teacher and his family? I was told by that good man’s wife: “Mr Seedat, you mean nothing. Your Minister is playing around with you.”

Mr Chairman, will the hon member tell the House that I have given a very reasonable explanation as to why he was not transferred? I told the hon member that at that stage there was no vacancy at that school. I regret that this matter has now been exaggerated out of proportion.

Mr Chairman, I disagree with the hon the Minister, because it is not being exaggerated at all. I conveyed a message which was given to me by the hon the Minister himself. Had the hon the Minister himself not told me that, I would not have conveyed it to the teacher concerned. From this particular school a teacher was seconded as acting principal to a school in Nylstroom. At Pioneer Primary he is head of department, yet he has been seconded to Nylstroom. That vacancy exists. The irony of it is that immediately I queried it this with the official in Durban, that principal received an office inspection.

Let us not carry on with these methods. Mention was made earlier of Gestapo methods. These are Gestapo methods. [Interjections.]

My heart bleeds for that principal. I am a member of that education committee and that is why I knew about the vacancy. That is why I knew about the secondment of the teacher in Nylstroom. However, to immediately go and ask for an office inspection of that school for that principal is rather unfair. That principal is prepared for inspections day in and day out. He is running the school methodically and I can say that this school is a shining light in Actonville. [Interjections.]

I am sorry that I have to come out so strongly on this issue but this is how I feel. I feel hurt that my credibility in the eyes of those people has been undermined. [Interjections.]

I want to ask the hon the Minister something. I am not pointing a finger in his direction. I respect that hon Minister. To my mind he is an honourable gentleman. [Interjections.]

Who is behind it, then? [Interjections.]

I do not believe that a disgruntled teacher—or educator, as he is now called—will give us the 100% effort he is being asked for if he is dissatisfied and disgruntled.

We must remember that it is said that a lawyer hangs his mistakes and a doctor buries his, but what does a teacher do with his? He has to see them walking around daily. Let us help those teachers. Let us help them to produce good citizens of the future. The parliamentarians that are going to come here will be, as we are, the products of the classroom. If one has a good corps of teachers, one will have good parliamentarians, good legislators, good leaders.

Mr Chairman, I am most delighted to be speaking after hon members of the majority party, and especially the last few hon members, in this particular debate. I believe that these hon members have had the courage of their convictions in making use of the opportunity this debate affords to speak out openly as they have done. Therefore I, as an opposition member, want to acknowledge their sincerity and I believe that what they have said has made a positive contribution to this debate. If this is the way we are going to conduct ourselves, then it augurs well for the future. Then we shall speak out openly, with open minds and without any cover-ups.

I should like to deal with a few aspects in this debate in the limited time I have at my disposal. I should like to say that I have listened to the hon the Minister’s reply, as well as the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council’s reply to this debate and it is clear to me that the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council appears to have taken up the cudgels in replying to this particular debate and dealing with various aspects that were raised.

I should like to ask why it is that one issue that was raised very early in the debate remains unanswered, and that is the appointment of the Chief Executive Director. [Interjections.] This issue has been raised quite a few times. [Interjections.] I trust that this will be answered because it is an issue that has been left hanging in mid air and I am aware of certain talk in the corridors.

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council made reference to the role of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition whilst there was a working arrangement with the NPP. I do not want that to be used as an excuse for the situation in which we find ourselves in so far as the lack of finances is concerned because the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition in this Chamber said that it was he who had raised the issue that the Government would have to address the historical imbalances and anomalies in this country before talking about any common norms. That was said, and no one denied it. People seem to conveniently forget what the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition had to say.

There is a new trend these days of being very noble and saying that we have to make certain sacrifices; that we believe in equality in education; that equality therefore means sacrifice; that our budget will be cut, etc. This is absolute tripe; absolute rubbish. [Interjections.] The whole issue in this particular regard is a political one.

A lot of money is being wasted in this country. All those funds that are being wasted in the country on the bureaucracies and structures that are being created unnecessarily, could be channelled into education without having to make sacrifices, and that applies in particular to the Department of Education as it is structured at the moment.

I think this is totally illogical and it defends the policy of the Nationalist Government. This type of argument merely defends the policies of the Nationalist Government, policies of separation and racism. I do not buy that and I do not think we on this side of the House accept it.

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council came down very heavily on the hon member for Cavendish. He made many statements, and I do not want to deal with this kind of argument and respond to everything he raised. Suffice to say that if he feels so strongly that what the hon member for Cavendish said was not the truth, why is he resisting a commission of enquiry into education? Tasa asked for a commission of enquiry, parent committees have asked for a commission of enquiry, hon members from the opposition party have asked for a commission of enquiry and so have hon members from the ruling party. Why not have that and clear the air once and for all? However, it seems to me that in this House the ruling party will resist anything concerning an examination and public audit of its activities. Only an organisation indulging in bad practices and maladministration will resist such a public audit. Let it not be said that we are resisting a political public audit because of bad administration or that we have much to hide. If we have nothing to hide, we should not be afraid of having such a commission of enquiry.

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council talks about funds and the lack thereof. The hon the Minister also referred to this. I want to know: If they want to spread the cake further, why is nothing being done about representations which have been made for privatisation? If there are people who want to have private schools and want to relieve the department of its burden or lessen its burden by paying for their own education on a privatised basis, that should be encouraged. Let them pay for their own education if they can afford to do so. Let privatisation take place. Encourage it. If the department wants to spend its money on the needs that are required, those institutions that want to establish private schools should be examined on some basis and it should be encouraged. This will result in greater utility of the funds that are available for the indigent people.

However, it would seem to me that a school has been frustrated and various other institutions that have applied have been frustrated and tossed between general affairs and own affairs. I implore the hon the Minister to encourage those institutions and people who want to take away the burden from us.

I also want to make some brief references of which I would like the hon the Minister to take careful note. When we talk about the promotion and the future of our children, there are so many allegations against the activities of teachers in the school situation. The morals in our schools have deteriorated as a result of the activities of certain teachers. I will not take this opportunity of reading what I have in my hand, but I will make it available to the hon the Minister. It says here that a male teacher attempted to seduce a male pupil, and attempted an act of sodomy. However, when I personally raised the matter with the principal of the school, he admitted that there was such a complaint and that that teacher would be transferred. I feel that that does not address the problem. The teacher must be gotten rid of. What happened? When the school reopened, the teacher was still merrily there and there was a cover-up. Why? Because the principal happens to belong to a certain party and took an active part in the Tongaat election. I cannot tolerate that and I will fight it with everything I have at my disposal.

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council should be here again.

I showed this to the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council privately yesterday. I will not condone this type of thing.

I am sure the hon the Minister will not condone that, either. Those elements in the department—be they inspectors or whoever—who condone this type of thing, must be dealt with most severely. A cover-up of this nature will not be tolerated by any decent human being.

I now come to another matter. I want to make an appeal to the hon the Minister. We seem to be caught up in a kind of euphoria. We talk about computer literacy. I would like to recommend a monthly magazine called Computing to the hon the Minister and his officials.

When the hon member referred to the misconduct of a certain teacher, he made certain allegations. Will the hon member accept my guarantee that if I had had any knowledge of that, the necessary action would have been taken? It was brought to my attention yesterday for the first time.

Yes, sir. Yesterday I took it up for the first time. I want to place on record that the family of this particular child impressed upon me not to take this up publicly, because they are sensitive to this. They did not want this to come out into the open for various reasons. They have their honour and integrity to protect. We Indians like to keep our respect and dignity intact. However, I did the correct thing when I spoke to the principal of the school. I am also a parent, and that is why I spoke to the principal. He said he was going to do something.

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Sir, I am indebted to the hon the Chief Whip of the Majority Party.

I was talking about computer literacy. We are always lagging ten years behind. I have said this in previous debates, but I wish to repeat it: I am not an educationist, but I want to appeal to educationists not to be followers, but leaders. They should initiate things.

There are many computer centres at schools these days, but this is an outdated concept. In America and other parts of the world they have discovered that this is outdated. When the computer first came out, they had certain functions, but those functions are completely different now. They have changed. The computer is a vital instrument and it should be used in every class-room and not in just one centre. It is an aid. I do not want to go into detail about this, because I will send the relevant article to the hon the Minister. In other parts of the world they are abandoning this approach. We are now doing what other people have discarded. I would therefore submit this in writing to the hon the Minister, so that we can improve education in a positive way. There is no point in doing things which are not beneficial to our school children.

Having said this, I would like hon members to have a look at this advertisement. Maybe the hon the Minister is not an economist. Maybe he does not shop around and look at prices of computers. Maybe he is not aware of how many officials and personnel in his department have ICL computers. I do not know whether they were purchased, or whether they were given to the staff as a bonus. Maybe the hon the Minister should find out.

However, the hon the Minister has spent R11,2 million on 1682 computers and 294 ICL printers. If he looks at the business section of the Sunday Tribune, he will find that an IBM-compatible computer can be bought for under R2 000, and a printer for under R850. My calculations tell me that the hon the Minister should have spent R3 364 000 for 1 682 computers, and R249 900 for the printers. The grand total is R3 613 000, which is far less than R11,2 million. I do not know whether the hon the Minister is buying the wrong equipment. I do not know whether he buys obsolete equipment, or whether somebody is taking a cut on this.

Sir, is the hon member prepared to take a question?

I do not have much time.

It is a short question. Is the hon member aware of the fact that these computers are purchased on tender?

Whoever drew up the tender document has expensive taste.

I will reconsider my statements if the hon the Minister would give me the specifications of the computers, the tendered documents and proof that there was in the first instance the need to buy that type of computer for R11 million when the amount could have been brought down to approximately R3,6 million. If the hon the Minister wishes to discuss it with me further I am prepared to do it and to assist him in the matter.

The matter of sports was raised and it was done quite effectively. Not long ago there was a meeting in Port Elizabeth between Coloured schools and Indian schools. It is a shame that the Indian schools only managed to win one second place out of all the events that took place. This shows that the sports curriculum of our schools is not as effective as it used to be. [Interjections.] Sport is not only done for fun and recreation—it can also be a career. What about the Zola Budds and the John MacEnroes? We must encourage our children to take up sporting activities.

I want to conclude by saying that this allocation of schools to booksellers for the supply of their books is causing a great deal of criticism and suspicion in the community. If the hon the Minister has not heard this before he might as well hear it now. There are people whom I know personally who probably have never even read a Thomas Hardy book in their lives, let alone sold books, yet they have become booksellers overnight and have massive contracts to supply schoolbooks. It is said that certain people enjoy this privilege because of their affinity to certain individuals or certain parties. [Interjections.]

This brings down the image of this House and this department. I am not casting any aspersions on the hon the Minister himself—perhaps he is unaware of the situation. I want to say to him that he should institute an investigation into these matters. He must not accept what he is told at face value but he should rather examine it thoroughly. We are prepared to discuss this matter with the hon the Minister if he will sit around the table with us. However, we cannot appraise the situation when our constituencies will be victimised if we have discussions. I will deal further with victimisation under another Budget Vote.

Mr Chairman, many a problem area has been highlighted by many hon members in the past three days. The hon the Minister has responded to some of them.

Today I will dwell primarily on staffing of schools and the teacher:pupil ratio. The allocation of staff to a school is dependent on pupil enrolment at that school as at the tenth school day, and Circular 33 of 1978 is used as a guideline. However, this circular is ten years old and has become obsolete. It does not cater effectively for time differentiation in education. It does not help us to economise in the light of the constraints placed on our Budget for education.

Let us look at some of the anomalies contained in the staff ratio formula in the circular that I referred to. I will refer firstly to comprehensive schools. No provision whatsoever is made for these schools, especially with regard to the teaching time of principals and senior deputy principals. School principals have to teach for five hours per week and deputy principals for ten hours per week. Whilst in comprehensive schools the principal and senior deputy principal have to teach meaningful contact time for 10 hours per week.

Why should there be a difference in teaching time at comprehensive schools in comparison to ordinary schools such as S1 schools? The workload and the responsibility is the same. Do we really need to differentiate between S1 and comprehensive schools?

In White education, comprehensive schools have hostels and all the problems associated with hostels and day schools. Therefore the creation of comprehensive schools is a strain on our budget and serious consideration should be given to their elimination when the public servants’ salary structure is reviewed.

The staff ratio formula makes no provision for two deputy principals in certain secondary schools yet a number of secondary schools with an enrolment of over 750 have two deputy principals. Unfortunately the principals and deputy principals in our schools are to a very large extent involved in clerical work rather than in the academic growth of the school. Therefore the second deputy principal’s post should be abolished and replaced by more clerical staff trained for the purpose of doing the necessary clerical work at schools.

According to the formula the highest number of HODs allocated to the largest secondary school, which has an enrolment of over 1 200 pupils, is only five. However, from 1985, secondary schools were given additional HODs over and above the staff ratio formula. I am given to understand that for every 600 pupils doing a subject the school is given an HOD in that subject. Therefore the appointment of additional HODs has created many problems, for example, straining the budget which results in an increase in the teaching time of the HODs from 15 hours to 20 hours per week, thus reducing the effectiveness of the HOD and the eventual increase in the teaching time of all educators at a school.

Originally the HOD was put in charge of a department, for example, humanities, to look after subjects such as History, Geography, Guidance etc. This was in line with the creation of the post of Chief Superintendent (Academic). If one looks at the vacancies advertised, one sees that the emphasis has shifted from department head to subject head. This is meritorious but it contradicts the formula as no provision has been made for it in the budget. Furthermore, since it has merit to appoint HODs subject-wise in the secondary schools, the same advantage should be extended to primary schools. If this is accepted the criteria for promotion to HODs in primary schools has to be amended. Therefore this post should be reviewed thoroughly by the department.

The staff ratio formula determines the number of educators according to the enrolment and class group size. The size of the class varies as follows: Junior primary, 25 to 40; senior primary, 28 to 40; junior secondary, i e Std 6 and 7,24 to 40; senior secondary, i e Std 8, 9 and 10, 18 to 37.

White schools presently operate on a ratio of 1:18 while the ratio for Indians is 1:22. Therefore the department must now clearly define the limits of the class groups. In fact, I venture to say, the same ratio applying to Whites should be adopted for Indians, if the budget could provide for it. The staff ratio formula makes no provision for counselling by the guidance counsellors or for the administration work done by the teacher librarians.

A guidance counsellor should be a highly successful educator with years of teaching experience who is properly qualified. Unfortunately, many counsellors, although qualified, lack the experience. More experienced teachers should be selected for counselling and this should not be governed by the formula.

The administration work of a teacher-librarian should be done by a properly trained and qualified clerk, and the teacher-librarian used more effectively in the teaching of this subject. Library facilities, too, should be extended to the community for use after school hours, weekends and holidays.

The delays in effecting transfers and making the necessary appointments is causing a great deal of uneasiness in the community. Moreover, an experienced school principal should be seconded to this division as the present personnel lack the finesse in effecting transfers and making correct appointments. For example, a technical draftsman is sent to a school that requires an industrial arts teacher.

I know for a fact that for many years, principals and teachers organisations have been requesting laboratory assistants. Our department should give serious consideration to this as well as workshop assistants, such as for metalwork and woodwork.

Mr Chairman, the other day I was very objective and factual in some of the observations I made. I really owe apologies to no one as a public representative.

I understand that in his reply, the hon the Minister rebutted some of those statements, but I want to stand by every statement I made because they had substance, and those are the facts. If the hon the Minister or the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, in their wisdom, feel that those are not the facts then they themselves should institute, if not a judicial commission of inquiry, then an inquiry within the department.

Before I change gear, I want to be quite factual in pointing out one or two things, firstly in the cultural sphere. This subject of introducing cultural studies in Indian schools is a very farfetched idea for any intellectual. The report goes on to say that it is to enable them to study Indian culture, and, more importantly, other cultures. I ask how many of us really understand even the concept of culture and what it involves. I refer to the very broad totality which the hon the Minister indicated yesterday. I think this is a wild goose chase; and what is being done here? This is a very important matter. After 50 years of battling with the White Government, we introduced Indian languages, and a setback for success in Indian languages is the fact that the classes are fragmented; we are not getting reasonable numbers for the classes. The introduction of cultural studies is going to be the death knell for Indian languages.

I want the hon the Minister to think about this, and I want him to go back and tell those academics, who probably have ulterior motives, to get their thinking straight. I shall leave the matter at that.

With regard to the senior certificate, I want fresh consideration to be given to the concept of the practice of converting failures to passes; I say this in all sincerity. I think that this probably has serious implications, and it might stigmatize our standard of education. There should not be this idea of having too many As, Bs and Cs merely to inflate the results.

Having said that, I want to refer to some of the, I would say, absolutely false pictures painted this morning, and even yesterday afternoon. Talking about “Gestapo methods”, I want to say that unfortunately the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council has tremendous limitations. I do not wish to exploit this aspect, but he can only get advice from other educationalists and academics; some from within the department and others from outside the department. These people have, shall I say, certain questionable motivations; this is the problem—and he falls prey to that.

With regard to the placement of teachers in promotion posts, I say that this is being done by one man. I am not worried about that administrative committee; as regards the initial appointment of teachers by one person; boarding of teachers on grounds of ill health—one man; the school calendar—who decided it? The Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the academics did not have a hand in it. He influenced the issue. He mentioned it in this House first and I challenged him on that. He cannot deny that. I am talking about how the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council acknowledged the improvement of Black education and that it has been partly through the efforts of this House. In the past he told us that they are not reducing the Budget of Indian education. I welcome the improvement of Black education, but it should not happen at the expense of Indian education. It should not happen at the cost of 1 000 teachers walking the streets. This is where I want the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council to face the community, because this is where he shied away from the congress of the Transvaal. He must face them and answer this question.

There is one more point I must make about universities. I have been misunderstood as regards my use of the word “holocaust”; I have been taken too literally. I did not say that there must be a White rector at the university at all times, but isn’t the University of Durban Westville an exception thus far, in that we have continued to have a White rector? I mentioned the other day that the university has a person of the calibre of Prof J Reddy. What is he doing there? The Minister, with great pomp and boasting, took him to the dental faculty. There is no dental faculty as such there. What is he doing? According to the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare the dental faculty will be established in 1990. However, in academic circles and on the university campus they feel it might not take off even in 1990. It may never come about. Here we are wasting international experts such as this man, by having him merely training nurse aids. These are important indications and I do not want anybody to use this House to present a picture which is not true.

Mr Chairman, I rise to treat a lot of what the hon member for Cavendish has stated, with the contempt it deserves. I would like to inform him that on Monday I am going to move for the appointment of a select committee concerning a statement he made in this House, although it does not cast aspersions; not even the Ministers’ Council deals with school calendars. However, on one or two aspects I will definitely move for the appointment of a select committee and I sincerely hope that when the findings of the select committee are known, that hon member will stand up in this House and apologize for what he has stated.

Hold your peace until then.

All right, I will hold my peace until then.

Mr Chairman, at the outset I want to thank all hon members in the House for making their contributions in this debate and for their criticisms, some of which were well meant and some of which were exaggerated. As Minister of Education and Culture I take them in the spirit in which they were made over the past two or three days.

I may not have enough time to reply to everybody, but I want to make absolutely sure that those hon members whose contributions I cannot deal with in this House, will receive their replies in writing. I also wish to thank my colleagues, the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture for their complimentary comments and support of my Budget speech. The hon the Chairman of the Minister’s Council’s views on the formula system were made absolutely clear and I agree that the formula is something which we agreed to, and it is a matter of difficult and painful decisions that we have to take from time to time. [Interjections.] I wish to repeat that it is not always easy to take difficult and painful decisions.

I have noted the hon the Minister of Local Government and Agriculture’s request for school halls in the outlined areas and for more cultural activities and cultural work in the rural areas.

Before I go on to other matters, I should like the Press to take note of the fact that the policy of Indian education is a committal to the equal provision of education for all.

Secondly, in giving effect to this we have had, of necessity, to cut out luxuries and concentrate on providing the essentials without lowering norms and standards. We are keeping a constant watch on that all the time.

R1,3 million is not a luxury?

It is in this spirit and context …

The Odeon Cinema is not a luxury?

Would that hon member please give me a chance? He has had his say. [Interjections.]

Order!

It is in this spirit and context that we appreciate the move made by the hon the Minister of Finance in granting a 40% increase to Black education for the present year. We must bear with that and we must appreciate it if we are committed to the equal provision of education.

I now want to turn to a question that has been asked by several hon members. I want to tell the hon member for Rylands that his concern about the filling of the post of the Chief Executive Director has been noted.

Why has he not been appointed? Appoint him! [Interjections.]

I wish to report at this stage that the matter is now in the hands of the Commission for Administration. [Interjections.]

In the same breath, I also want to thank the hon member for Rylands for his support in countering various malicious statements.

Mr Chairman, would the hon the Minister kindly reciprocate by allowing me to ask a question now?

I will take a question, but I want to ask hon members to bear with me as our time is limited. Some hon members on this side of the House will be wanting to leave shortly for the purpose of prayers, and I should like to accede to that request. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, in respect of the Chief Executive Director, may I ask the hon the Minister what the situation is with regard to the other departments, that is to say, those departments of the House of Representatives and the House of Assembly? Has the commission created such a post and has such a post been filled in those departments?

This position was a creation of the Commission for Administration, and not a creation of our particular House or administration. The hon member must therefore kindly bear with us. We are complying with the requirements of the Commission for Administration.

In the House of Representatives the post has been created but not filled.

That is right.

Then why call it “acting” if there is no post? [Interjections.]

I should now like to go on to answer some of the questions asked by hon members.

The hon member for Camperdown, who is not here at the moment, indicated that there was gross neglect in the promotion of culture. I want to disagree with him. With reference to the Nelspruit issue, I should have liked to ask him—he is not here at the moment—what he had done in this respect up to the time he spoke in the debate here. I want to refute the allegation made by him and ask him to make sure of his facts before making such unsubstantiated statements. [Interjections.] As a point of interest, I should like to know from him what he has done in relation to this matter. Has he approached the Minister with some suggestions? Has he made any representations before this? It is no use his making such allegations when he himself has not been effective.

A commission will expose those who are calling for a commission.

Good, let it be exposed. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Phoenix dwelt on the placement and transfer of teachers and requested that I investigate the apparent anomalies in the transfer and appointment of educators.

I answered this fully yesterday, but I want to say, with respect, that the hon member must know—and various hon members must take note of this—that it is not easy to transfer a teacher. We have various departments. We have the preprimary school, the junior section, the senior primary section, the junior secondary section and the senior secondary section. It is not easy to take a teacher from one section and plant him in another section. I want hon members to take this into account. It takes some planning before one can shift a teacher. Therefore, in answering some of the questions regarding the distances teachers are travelling, the department is looking very seriously at how it can solve this problem. We know that it involves finance. It is not easy on a teacher to be travelling distances, but priority is being given to those teachers who have been in this situation the longest. Their situation has to be relieved before one considers the new ones. There are of course cases where new teachers have certain particular difficulties and those are also looked at.

Referring to the same hon member, unqualified teachers are employed because of the needs of the department in certain subject directions where qualified teachers are unable to fulfill the requirements. Therefore we have certain unqualified teachers. Hon members must bear with us. We require them. However, there are certain qualified teachers, as mentioned by the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, who are qualified in the humanities. We have too many of them. We cannot place them. This is what happens.

The matter of the school calendar is receiving the attention of the department. It is not receiving our attention, ie that of the politicians. I will come to that a little later.

I come now to the hon member for Lenasia Central. He asked about the role the education committees are playing. I know that they have a limited role; we are all agreed on that. However, I want to tell the hon member that every school has the updated regulations. The Department of National Education does not issue regulations in respect of education committees. It is we who have education committees. I also want to inform the hon member that the department is examining the role and functions of education committees with a view to involving them more meaningfully in education and training. We would like the views of hon members, educationists and academics on this matter, as to how we can enable them to have a more meaningful role.

Mr Chairman, will the hon the Minister take a question at the end of his speech?

I will take it now, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, it is proposed that an M + 4 course be introduced, but there is a qualification, namely that it be done on a selective basis. May I know why this is on a selective basis?

Mr Chairman, there are various reasons for that. The hon member should at least appreciate that the department is trying to bring the qualifications of teachers up to date. Those who have the M + 2 and have nearly finished the M + 3 and those who would have finished the M + 3 will now be qualifying for the M + 4. This is done on a selective basis, because one cannot take the whole lot together at one time and allow them to be qualified. It will be done on a selective basis. I will have to consult the department as to what they mean by “a selective basis”. As I see it, those teachers who will be in certain positions and doing studies in certain directions will be taken first. We have teachers who have studied in different directions.

We will concentrate on certain directions, such as science. I will be able to give the hon member more details on that. Hitherto we have not had that examination for inservice teachers.

What happened to the examinations that were set for 5 May?

I will not take any more questions, because my time is limited. I do not know whether hon members wish to continue this debate until 13h30.

As far as the sports policy is concerned, this was enunciated and introduced recently. The hon member has rightly observed that the policy is being evaluated. I will be able to report fully on this in my next report.

The rates of payment of teachers was also referred to. The department is presently paying the prescribed rates to part-time teachers, and this cannot be increased without being changed by the commission for administration who decides on these things.

The renovations at the Park Primary School have had to be delayed because of a change in our priorities as a result of financial constraints.

I now come to the vacant ground at the Nizrana school. The department plans to develop the site into a sports field. Progress will depend on the availability of funds.

The hon member for Cavendish levelled accusations against the Chief Director (Control). He brought up the case of leave not being granted to Mr Michael Pillay, a biology teacher. Mr Pillay was granted study leave from 17 August 1985 to 29 August 1986. He then applied for an extension of leave for an indefinite period to be extended to three years. This request was refused and Mr Pillay was requested to report for duty on 1 September 1986. He failed to report and was discharged on account of absconding. What is interesting, is that this application was refused before the present Director assumed his post. The hon member for Cavendish, in his desire to discredit the present Chief Director, puts the blame on him.

That is your conclusion. It is a pity.

We will appoint a select committee. Do not worry. We will appoint a joint select committee, which will not only include the House of Delegates.

The hon member for Reservoir Hills requested a report-back on allegations of maladministration by the principal of Clairwood Secondary School. The Superintendent of Education, Mr M Naidoo, conducted an investigation and reported that the allegations were unfounded and could not be proved.

With regard to the repairs of a motor vehicle owned by Mr A K Mohammed, assistant director in the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services at Clarewood Secondary School, there was nothing irregular which did not conform with standard practice. In the years during Mr Krog’s regime, senior White officials had made use of these facilities.

I now come to the hon member for Newholme who made certain references to problems surrounding transport of pupils from Richmond to Pietermaritzburg. These matters are receiving attention. I wonder if hon members are aware of what appears to be a concerted effort on the part of some persons to ensure that every bus operator on this service fails. We notice that with great concern.

The third operator has been commissioned this year and already there are reports of untoward behaviour on the buses. There seems to be an orchestrated move aimed at the operators themselves. There are difficulties, but these matters are being looked at.

The department is also keen to meet the demands of the parents to establish classes for std 6 and 7 pupils in Richmond but it has to be appreciated that where it is possible to offer these acceptable alternatives in the interest of the children, the department had to adopt those measures that are less costly. The introduction of secondary classes at Richmond will not benefit the pupils from an instruction point of view and the department will not be able to solve the problems of facilities and suitable staff for Richmond easily. It is not possible to make premises available at short notice with all the facilities for a secondary division—it takes a little while. I therefore want to appeal to hon members who have an influence in their areas to prevail on the community that time is needed to make these facilities available.

Insofar as the poor reception of Radio Lotus south of Umkomaas is concerned, I ask the hon member for South Coast to let me have copies of the representations that he made so that I can pursue the matter further with the authorities.

While I am talking about the SABCI also want to say that I was rather disappointed last night when the announcement was made on television that the Budget Votes on education were discussed in all three Houses. The speeches made in two of the Houses were prominently featured but that of the House of Delegates was not featured to the same extent except for a very brief appearance of the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. [Interjections.] I had calls from many areas asking what had happened to the Minister. I had to be frank and say to them that I do not control the SABC. [Interjections.]

I now come to the hon member for Phoenix. I want to refer him to my reply in this House insofar as the placement of teachers is concerned. He will recall that I answered in detail. The hon member can rest assured that the reported irregularities will be investigated and for this reason I will greatly appreciate it if the list of names referred to in the House yesterday can be made available to me for investigation and any necessary action. I would, however, be very surprised if there are not logical explanations in each case.

I now come to the matter of the school calendar. I have already spoken about this but there is no harm in repeating it. When the department found it necessary in the interest and welfare of its pupils, teachers and buildings to follow a school calendar similar to those being followed by other non-White education authorities, careful consideration was given to the need for change. I want to state that no politician had a say in bringing about this change. [Interjections.] The Teacher’s Association of South Africa was briefed and it appreciated the reasons why our calendar should not differ from those of other non-White departments.

The department has been hard pressed to reconsider this decision. It is considering these representations but it concerned that, should it deviate from the calendars followed in the past two years, we will be the only non-White department to follow a different calendar. This will enable Indian teachers and pupils to be on vacation when all other non-White teachers and children will be at school.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question?

No, I said no questions, Mr Chairman. It is already 12h15. [Interjections.]

I trust hon members will now support any decision that the department will take with regard to this matter.

The hon member Mr A S Razak and other members raised the issue of Fridays in the Transvaal. I want to say, with respect, that a second circular has been sent to teachers and principals and the policy is made quite clear in that circular. The department has stated its policy on this in two circulars already sent to schools. I, as the Minister, am satisfied that headmasters have now been empowered to take a decision in the best interests of the children. The hon member Mr A S Razak is advised to check his facts in connection with this issue.

At no time must we take away the democratic right from parents; we must not be autocratic. If by a democratic process more than 50% of parents agree to this the principal is at liberty to go ahead.

Not 50%, 10%, that is democracy!

That is not democracy.

The hon member for Umzinto made certain observations and I now wish to reply to him. I regret that his tone was a little unwarranted. He launched an unwarranted attack on an official of the department. Much of what he said is malicious and devoid of truth and I have appealed to him not to make such statements.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I take strong exception to the hon the Minister saying that what I said was malicious.

I have satisfied myself that the official has acted within the bounds of his duties and in accordance with the regulations. I shall arrange to furnish him with particulars about the queries the hon member has raised about the building programme, about gifted children and education in human values. I appreciate that.

With regard to courses for the training of home economists, I would suggest that the hon member writes to the technikon and university which are autonomous tertiary institutions responsible for such courses.

As far as the retirement of teachers is concerned, the hon member should have remembered that this matter was fully debated earlier in this House when I gave a fuller reply.

The hon member for Lenasia Central yesterday referred to the rates of pay for teachers of vernacular classes and I have already to some extent answered that. While I agree that the remunerative benefits in any field of employment should be as attractive as possible, I must point out that in the case of educators and other sectors of the public service salaries constitute a condition of service and as such are subject to consideration and recommendation by the Commission for Administration, the central Treasury in the Ministry of Finance and the Department of National Education in the case of CS Educators, at the same time acting in consultation with all education authorities in the country.

The rates applied by my department are in accordance with the national policy. We are not paying these teachers any less than other teachers performing a similar service. Service benefits are continually reviewed from time to time and in the process all educationists are considered.

With regard to technical education, I think the hon member Mr A S Razak, as well as the hon members for Actonville and Lenasia East, all made out a case for their areas. Technical education is not neglected in the Transvaal.

The school curriculum provides for industrial arts, technical drawing, woodwork and metalwork, which are technically-oriented subjects. A number of secondary schools have this. These are offered at all secondary schools where a viable demand materialises. In the case of a technical direction of study—which includes trade subjects—these have been in the curriculum of the M H Joosub School for the past ten years. However, the department is disappointed that in the largest Indian area in the Transvaal—this is the case that was made out—namely Lenasia, the demand in this direction of study has been very low, despite heavy investment in terms of workshops, equipping with heavy machinery, and engaging of specialist teachers for technical education.

It is for this reason that the expansion of technical education services in the Transvaal must be planned with circumspection. From the beginning of 1987, technical electronics was introduced at Azara Secondary School. The department is planning to introduce the subject at other secondary schools in Transvaal, provided the demand materialises. If hon members representing Transvaal constituencies feel that there is a demand and they have consulted with principals and education committees, and if they keep me informed, I can then inform the department that there is a demand, and they can have a look at this.

Notwithstanding this state of affairs, the department is investigating the feasibility of converting the Transvaal College of Education to a technical college, bearing in mind that it has very good hostel facilities to cater for students from the Transvaal. I hasten to add, however, that we will not take a decision until we have looked at all other possibilities. It should be noted that the department’s experience of subject options for secondary school pupils in the Transvaal has tended towards commercial and academic directions of study.

The department also has other plans such as the inclusion of trade workshops at existing secondary schools on a regional basis, but again such an investment can only be made if the demand materialises.

The acquisition of a technical school in Rynsoord was investigated by the department and was found to be unsuitable. It was also found to be not viable in the area in terms of demand, based on a survey conducted by the department.

As regards the Transvaal College of Education, I think I have said a great deal about this, but I refer the hon members who raised this issue to my reply yesterday in this House, and to the hon member for Laudium. Unfortunately that hon member was not present yesterday, and he is absent again today.

I thank the hon the Leader of the Opposition for his positive contribution and his caution to members to be more circumspect in their attacks on civil servants. [Interjections.] I wish to remind him that the department did not neglect to pursue his suggestion with regard to the survey he asked for and of whereabouts of graduates from technical schools such as Clairwood. The survey was made available and a suitable letter was sent to him. If he does not have a copy of it, I shall arrange for a copy to reach him in good time.

The Director-General has been requested to inquire into the investigations at the M L Sultan Technicon. He did refer to this, and I want to pass this on to him.

Concerning the hon member’s query about last year’s Education Vote in regard to school-leavers, I have already dealt with this matter.

The hon member for Chatsworth Central and the nominated member Mr A S Razak referred to community centres. I want to emphasise that the department has done everything in its power to encourage the establishment of these centres.

The initiative now rests with the community to take advantage of the facilities and enrol for courses. My department will be able to provide all the information and assistance needed. Several other hon members have made certain requests which I will not be able to answer at present, but I can assure hon members that as far as possible I will do my best to answer them in writing.

The last person I shall deal with at present is the hon member for Tongaat, who stressed the need for pre-primary education. I have indicated that if it were possible we would have provided all the pre-primary education that is needed. However, he must take notice of the difference between pre-primary and the bridging module which we are now trying to promote in State departments. We are increasing the number and in future this will be an ongoing practice. While the department appreciates the importance of this service, it has not taken a policy decision in this matter, because in terms of the new system of funding education the pre-primary education is not included as a State responsibility. As long as there are other priorities, the department unfortunately will have to continue with its present policy of encouraging community initiative by way of subsidies and grants. The department has also included in its programme the provision of playing fields at the Fairbreeze School. The hon member will please take note of that. Also for the information of the hon member and others who have raised this issue, medical boarding of educators is not done directly by my department.

Social welfare, Pretoria.

Yes. The Department of Health Services and Welfare of our administration and the Department of National Health and Population Development take the final decision in this matter.

Before I conclude I want to reiterate a few important facts. The hon member for Umzinto referred to anomalies in the administration of Education …

The hon the Minister has already replied to that.

I believe I did mention that it was not in good taste to have mentioned certain matters relating to members of my administration and poor relations culminating in the slogan: “Panday must go." That was done in bad taste and we must abstain from making such comments. Any matter dealing with my administration should be brought to my notice, which will be very much appreciated.

I was about to say that I want to reiterate that the policy of Indian education is that of a committal to the equal provision of education for all races. In giving effect to this we have had, of necessity, to cut out luxuries and concentrate on and provide for essentials within our department without the lowering of norms and standards. In this context we appreciate the announcement made by my colleague, the hon the Minister of Finance, of an increase of 40% in the budget of Black education. We must bear with this.

Vote agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.