Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Mr Chairman, on behalf of the Official Opposition I should merely like to record our strong objection to this fragmentation of the House into separate committees.

Mr Chairman, we also wish to record our objection to these extended hours. For a small opposition party it makes it extremely difficult to be able to handle a Budget Vote properly. We find, as is going to be the case next week, that we will have to have one hon member in two committees at the same time …

Order! I have allowed the hon member to lodge his objection by way of a speech. Strictly in terms of the rules of the House, however, a motion of this nature is not a matter for debate. It is only possible for hon members to vote for or against the motion. However, if the hon member promises to be very brief I shall allow him to continue.

Mr Chairman, I intend to be brief. As I recall, we have on many occasions in the past objected to this type of situation. I confess to being surprised at the moving of this motion although I am not in fact allowed to talk to it. I simply want to say that in the new circumstances in which we are not even going to be given extra time for debate because we are now going to have to sit in two committees, we are even more against this than we were in the past.

Mr Chairman, I take note of the objections raised by both opposition parties. We have already discussed this matter in depth on previous occasions. In deference to your ruling therefore I shall also be very brief.

When we divide up into two committees, there is in the long run just as much time for an intensive and in-depth debate. I cannot understand how such a division can prejudice any party. The fact that certain hon members, owing to their fields of interest, perhaps have to participate in the proceedings of two committees simultaneously, applies equally to hon members of my party. It is still possible to hold in-depth discussions, and in this way we are also serving the interests of the House in the sense that hon members will use their time more productively. I therefore ask that my motion be adopted.

Agreed to (Official Opposition and Progressive Federal Party dissenting).

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, we take cognisance of the fact that the governing party regards Parliament as the instrument whereby reform must be launched. We take note of that with appreciation, and we as democrats accept that that is the correct approach. We accept, too, that Parliament must function in accordance with the rules of the game that have now been laid down.

This being the case, Parliament does not wish to be a mere rubber stamp for the executive actions of a Government which is becoming increasingly autocratic and arrogant. We are opposed to Parliament simply agreeing to the steps taken by the executive.

Doing away with a quorum, as set out in the first clauses of the Bill, is a clear manifestation of that autocratic style of government by the governing party.

The fact that there are seldom more than two hon Ministers in this House—whatever subject is being discussed—is a reason why the hon the Minister wants to get away from the embarrassment caused the Government by the fact that the Government benches are continually empty despite the fact that we continually reminded them that they also happen to represent Whites in this Parliament. In this forum we discuss and express opinions about the matters affecting the Whites, and it is this forum that is being held in contempt by the hon members on the Government side.

We are very much aware of whom we represent.

Respect for Parliament as an instrument to achieve reform also entails that when one draws up the rules of the game to which the hon the Minister referred, one must see to it that this takes place with the greatest possible degree of consensus. This is not a case of the Government laying down the rules of the game and the opposition parties having to comply with them. Were that the case, it would simply not be good enough.

In the debate on the new Rules my hon colleagues have elaborated at length on the untenability of doing away with the quorum. I shall confine myself to contending that it is not meaningful if, as in the Congress of the USA or the German Parliament, and as the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North intimated, there will sometimes be only two members of Congress or of Parliament present while a debate is being conducted. These things are going to happen at the expense of the existing perception that democracy ought to be seen to take place.

Therefore, when one is going to have four different forums here in which debates can take place and in another sense only one forum, then on the one hand there is fragmentation and on the other, a unification into one central Parliament. That does not serve to enhance the image of this venerable institution.

In the second instance, if the hon the Minister has so much respect for Parliament then he ought to do everything in his power to keep the status of this institution as high and as worthy of respect as possible. One of the methods whereby one can achieve that, is by maintaining the quorum rule, for then there will at least be a respectable number of members present to conduct the debate, and it is not merely a place where someone gets up and talks while the next person waits for his turn.

It is also quite significant that in his introductory speech, which we do not yet have at our disposal, the hon the Minister pointed out that this was a situation in flux, and that amendment of the Constitution in future was also foreseen. We should just like to know what that signifies. What does the hon the Minister mean by that? Must we read that in conjunction with what the hon Chief Whip of the majority party said the other day in reply to an interjection? He said “Because we are not static”, whereupon the hon member for Barberton asked him: “The Blacks also have to come in, not so?” The hon Chief Whip then replied: “The Blacks can come too”. Does that, read in conjunction with the Second Reading speech by the hon the Minister, mean that the Blacks are also going to be brought into this Parliament? After all, it is being said that they are going to have a joint say in the legislative, decision-making functions of the country. We want to know whether it is envisaged that the Black people are also going to have representation in this Parliament.

Much is also being made of the contention that we are supposedly afraid to debate against the other groups in a joint meeting. That is utter nonsense. I just wish to state this categorically, because in the present circumstances our friends in the Presidents’ Council are debating in the presence of and against the other groups represented on the Presidents’ Council, and on that council they argue on a basis of principle.

Unfortunately the hon member for Mossel Bay is not present now, but I just want to put one point to him. He has said before that joint sittings do not necessarily lead to joint debating. He said that that was not the necessary consequence, nor was it the intention. That was a few years ago, but in 1984, when the hon the Minister moved the Second Reading of a Bill amending the Constitution, he stated very expressly that after three years of experience of joint discussion of matters on the standing committees, the next logical step was to allow the Houses of Parliament to debate together in public. In other words, he stated that it was the next logical step and the necessary consequence that after joint discussions had taken place on the standing committees, we should then have joint deliberation in open debates. Therefore we are correct when we say that the one step inevitably followed from the other step, and we are correct in our prediction that the next step will be a situation of one man, one vote. [Interjections.]

The Government goes on to argue that there is no difference between joint deliberation on the standing committee and the fact that we are now going to deliberate in public. Apparently there is also no difference between voting in the Great Chamber, albeit in separate hats, and hon members voting in their respective Houses. If that is so, why did the Government in the past cause these specific Joint Rules to come to grief? Why did they clash on this specific point with the hon members in the House of Representatives and the House of Delegates if there was no difference? We find it inexplicable.

Finally, mention is made in this Bill of joint standing committees. The hon the State President expressed the wish that because the Preamble to the Constitution was so splendidly worded, children ought to recite it every day at school. If that is the case with regard to the Preamble, then one would have expected even the wording of the Act itself to be in choice English or Afrikaans, and that it would be a showpiece for the country. Its Constitution is a reflection of the way it is governed. However, let us look at the Afrikaans version of the proposed new section 64(1)(b)(A):

Then one has to examine the Rules. What, then, is a joint meeting? Here I want to refer to the speech by the hon member for Bethal on a joint meeting. The hon the Minister was not present. A joint meeting is a peculiar kind of monstrosity.

A CP caucus too!

No, a ministerial NP-meeting in Brakpan is one. A meeting addressed by the hon the Leader of the House in Brakpan—an “oeloe-oeloe” meeting … [Interjections.] To establish what a joint meeting is, it is necessary to refer to the Rules in terms of the Constitution. I quote once again:

In other words, a meeting is still a meeting even though the members of the three Houses are not present. What is more important is the fact that this is so irrespective of the number of absent members. That is the definition of a joint meeting. The hon the Leader of the House was unable to reply to that argument advanced by the hon member for Bethal. Perhaps the hon the Minister who has such a lot to say, can explain to us what a fine showpiece this is of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa?

[Inaudible.]

We object to this amendment of the Constitution and we stand by our motion. We shall not support it.

Mr Chairman, in the two minutes I have at my disposal to speak about this Bill I cannot react to all the absurdities uttered by the hon member for Brakpan. However, I just wish to confine myself to section 1 of the principal Act in connection with the quorum which, as rewritten, basically confirms the position which has up to now probably been the case, namely that a quorum is unnecessary for a debate.

This aspect has been dealt with in detail. I put “in detail” in quotation marks because we went as far as the absurd argument of the hon member for Bethal that one member could then comprise a joint meeting. I want to say here and now that I have sufficient faith in the probity of hon members to believe that notwithstanding the quorum requirements there will be attendance. I even have sufficient faith in the discipline imposed by the Whips of the Official Opposition, and in the Whips of the other Houses, to believe that they will see to it that there will be a respectable attendance.

With the first joint meeting of provincial appropriation committees the indications as regards attendance are already such as to necessitate our hastily seeking alternative venues to accommodate the meetings. In other words, while it was initially accepted that these meetings would necessarily take place in the former provincial councils, the interest that is now becoming apparent will probably necessitate our considering alternative venues. I just wish to take this opportunity to bring that to the attention of hon members.

Mr Chairman, for the past few days we have been devoting all our time to the discussion of the new Rules. Accordingly I do not think there would be any point in repeating the debate we have conducted in this regard today. We have expressed our reservations about the issue of the quorum, despite what the hon the Chief Whip of Parliament has said, and about certain other aspects of the Rules.

We are now faced with the fait accompli that those new Rules have been passed by all three Houses. In the light of that there does not appear to be any point in opposing this Bill. Accordingly we support it.

Nevertheless, I wish to add that this does not constitute irrational support of the Bill. Firstly, we need the Bill to give effect to the new Rules which have been passed by the three Houses. Because this Bill is needed for this, it seems to me obvious that we can responsibly give it our support since it gives effect to something that the three Houses have already decided on. That, surely, goes without saying and in addition it is imperative.

Secondly I want to say that we have said that this party is in favour of joint meetings. To the extent that formal statutory provision is made in this Bill for meetings of that nature, it obviously deserves our support. Even though the distinction between joint meetings and joint sittings is a technical one, the standpoint we have adopted is that we believe that it should be possible to vote at both of these kinds of meetings. However, I do not wish to argue about that because I do not wish to reopen that debate. As regards the point that statutory sanction is now being granted to the convening of joint meetings of the three Houses so that joint debate can take place, it seems to me as if this Bill merely represents a further implementation of the resolutions we adopted yesterday.

In addition, bearing in mind the fundamental standpoint endorsed by this party, I also wish to say that the Bill does not run counter to the possibility of further amendment of the Constitution of South Africa to achieve those things that we stand for, through and in that Constitution. For that reason, too, there is no reason to oppose this Bill on that basis.

In the final instance I just wish to say something with reference to the new subsection (1) of section 67, as embodied in clause 3 of this Bill, which reads as follows:

1. (1) This section applies to joint sittings called thereunder, but does not otherwise derogate from the power of Parliament to regulate its business and proceedings.

Therefore this means that that sentence reconfirms the sovereignty of Parliament, if one may call it that, and as far as its internal activities and procedure are concerned, the Rules will regulate them with the qualifications specified in the new section 67(2) in regard to the convening of the three Houses for a joint sitting by way of a message of the State President.

Under these circumstances I just wish to say that, to put it negatively, it seems to us that there is no reason to oppose the Bill, and to put it positively, owing to those things for which it makes provision, we lend our support to this Bill.

Mr Chairman, I want to say here and now that I have little fault to find with the points of departure of the hon member Prof Olivier.

This brings me immediately to the hon member for Brakpan. I shall waste no time in pointing out to him that I do not intend to react to his personal insults. It has become the hon member’s habit to act that way and I think it is unnecessary.

His standpoint, if it is correct, need not be insulting. I can understand that he may often want to use insults as a substitute for good arguments. That I can understand.

Let us begin with the first remark which the hon member made last night. He said that I had not, as is customary, handed over my Second Reading speech to the opposition parties. However, there is no such custom. There has never been such a practice, except with … [Interjections.] Please listen. What is true is that copies of the Second Reading speech are made available to hon members of the other Houses when such a Second Reading speech is delivered in one House and is not repeated in the other Houses. The hon Chief Whip of the CP, as the Chief Whip, ought surely to know that his allegations are based on an entirely false premise. However he does so only in order to say something personal.

Secondly, he accused the Government of a lack of credibility. He based his argument on the fact that the policy is adjusted from time to time. I want to say today that the Government makes no apology for making policy adjustments from time to time. Indeed, any government is supposed to interpret circumstances and adapt its policy in accordance with its programme of principles, taking into account those circumstances. If we are to accuse one another of a lack of credibility on the basis of policy adjustments then I want to tell the hon member for Brakpan that surely his party did not break away from the NP on the basis of its homeland policy. They accepted that policy long after that party had been founded. While they accepted that policy they were still committed to the 1977 proposals. Does that make that party a liar or does it strip it of credibility because it adapted its policy with the consent of its congresses? However, the tragedy is that the hon member is unable to understand …

He had the courage to break with the NP.

… that in a dynamic community the ability to make changes is indicative of an ability to survive. Therefore the accusation one can level at that party is its incapacity to make policy adjustments within given circumstances.

I wish to mention a practical example. From day to day policy adjustments are made in regard to agriculture. The hon member was there; he knows that. As far as this matter is concerned, therefore, I want to say that the ability to adapt is the key to good government.

And changing principles?

The hon member is best qualified to speak about that because he changes from time to time. [Interjections.]

I want to go further. He says we have accepted the policy of the PFP and have irrevocably adopted that course. Surely, however, the hon member is aware that the PFP does not agree with our policy of group participation and group voting. They do not even agree with our definition of groups. On what reasonable basis is the hon member for Brakpan able to argue, except that of petty politics?

We do not believe in groups, we believe in peoples.

Just listen to that learned professor! Is a people not also a group? I just want to say, and I do not want to put it in a nasty way—no, I shall rather not say it.

Leave the old professor alone.

Yes, I better leave him alone because I am sitting next to one and I do not want to offend the profession. [Interjections.]

Let us consider this sacred commitment to Parliament as the instrument of change. Let us see whether it is a commitment or whether it is merely lip-service.

He only performs like that when the hon the State President is here.

Order! Hon members on the opposition side are making too many unnecessary interjections. The hon the Minister may proceed.

This legislation, as the hon member Prof Olivier said, gives effect to a resolution of Parliament. Yesterday Parliament decided that it wanted to change the rules. It wanted to change the Standing Rules and Orders, and in order to make that possible this legislation is a necessary consequence of a decision taken by Parliament. Surely, then, the hon member is not entitled to say that he accepts Parliament as the instrument of change because he is recording the strongest possible form of protest in this House with regard to legislation, namely that it be read this day six months. Surely, then, he does not accept Parliament as an instrument of change. He holds Parliament in contempt. He only accepts Parliament insofar as it does what he wants it to do. The hon member must really not try to come here and trick us with this verbal support because the fact is that he does not accept the decisions of Parliament. Nor does he accept the Constitution passed by Parliament in 1983.

He does not accept the referendum either.

Nor does he accept its outcome.

He goes on to say that Parliament must not be a rubber stamp for the Executive. Here I wish to ask the hon member what has happened, and in what respect does Parliament function differently in its relation to the Executive to the way it functioned when they were still here? I challenge the hon member to mention to this House one aspect that can substantiate his contention that a change has taken place in the relationship between the Executive and Parliament.

The State President had less power then.

And look at the empty spaces in this House.

He says we should do away with our autocratic style of conduct as the Executive. The hon member may not like it but the Executive, in terms of its proposals, is no longer bound to one House. Nowadays it needs three Houses. It is more difficult for it, but the hon member comes here and says we have become more autocratic, whereas in fact we have multiplied by three the legislative processes and the legislative institutions to which the Executive is responsible. Surely there is no substance to the hon the hon member’s argument.

He goes on to say that we should protect the status of Parliament. The status of Parliament as an institution is largely maintained and protected by the people who serve in Parliament. I think the hon member for Brakpan should talk to the hon member for Randfontein, so that the hon member for Randfontein can inform him about the essence of democracy. [Interjections.] The essence of democracy is that there must be a specific style and attitude on the part of the actors in its institutions. The crux of the matter, which has not yet come to the surface, is that the hon members of the Official Opposition can walk into the standing committee, have their protest noted and not participate in the debate, whereas they are unable to do so in the joint sittings. That is the essence of their objection but they do not have the courage to say that.

Time and again we have seen during this session that hon members make no contribution during meetings of standing committees and then come and conduct a debate in public. The reason they do not wish to do so on the standing committee is because it is closed. They come and conduct it here because they want to speak before a different audience than the hon members of Parliament alone. Then they come and tell us that they are the apologists for Parliament.

It is very interesting that the hon member should say that we discuss matters affecting the Whites here. Surely that is not the whole truth. Surely we also discuss matters affecting other communities here. After all, we know that affairs in any country cannot affect one community alone without having any effect on the others. That is why this House has a twofold function, namely to discuss matters which affect the Whites alone, but also to consider matters that affect the communities that do not have representation here; indeed, it also discusses matters affecting communities that have no representation even in one of the other Houses.

Why do we want to debate these matters? Are we prepared to debate only on those matters which we think can affect our party?

He asked whether the speech of the hon the State President read in conjunction with my opening address, signified that further constitutional changes were taking place. Surely we debated that as far back as 1983 and said that the Constitution did not address all the constitutional demands of our country. When we debated it here the hon the State President appointed a committee to attend to the further constitutional development of other communities as well.

After all, it was no secret that the 1983 constitution did not constitute the final blueprint for all constitutional systems in the country. The hon the State President submitted his standpoint and policy with regard to the participation of other communities in central, provincial and local institutions to his congress. He fought an election on that. For the information of the hon member, his party lost the election. However, one would swear they had won it. [Interjections.] Do hon members see what is happening here?

We see a majority of 39 votes.

How many votes did the hon member get in his old constituency? Nil!

I won by 1 074 votes.

The hon member ran away.

You will run away again.

The hon member will run away again.

But I am never going to win by 39 votes.

You are a professional runner.

The hon member will not get 39 votes where he is now.

I am going to get a great deal more. Next time the hon the Minister is going to lose. [Interjections.]

The hon the State President proposed that the preamble to the Constitution be read at our schools. The preamble to the Constitution expresses a philosophy of life for South Africa in the social, religious, economic and personal spheres. It embodies the essence of the intentions of the Government statement. There is nothing in that preamble that any hon member sitting here can dispute. However I concede that there may be differences between political standpoints in regard to the rest of the provisions of the Constitution and that reading that could cause division in school communities. To read the preamble, fly the flag and sing the National Anthem can unite the communities in the school context, irrespective of ideals, aims, relationships and philosophies. I want to know why cheap political points are being scored in respect of a proposal made by the hon the State President in this particular regard.

I contend that the resolutions of this House and of the other Houses represent the dynamics of the political development of this country.

Question put: That the word “now” stand part of the Question,

Upon which the House divided:

AYES—117: Alant, T G; Andrew, K M; Aucamp, J M; Badenhorst, C J W; Barnard, M S; Bekker, H J; Bloomberg, S G; Bosman, J F; Botha, C J van R; Botha, J C G; Botma, M C; Brazelie, J A; Breytenbach, W N; Burrows, R M; Camerer, S M; Christophers, D; Clase, P J; Coetsee, H J; Coetzer, P W; Cunningham, J H; De Beer, L; De Klerk, F W; De Villiers, D J; Dilley, L H M; Durr, K D S; Edwards, B V; Ellis, M J; Farrell, P J; Fick, L H; Fismer, C L; Fourie, A; Gastrow, P H P; Geldenhuys, B L; Golden, S G A; Graaff, D de V; Grobler, A C A C; Grobler, P G W; Heine, W J; Heunis, J C; Heyns, J H; Hugo, P F; Jooste, J A; King, T J; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kotzé, G J; Kriel, H J; Kruger, T A P; Lemmer, J J; Lorimer, R J; Louw, E v d M; Louw, M H; Malcomess, D J N; Malherbe, G J; Marais, P G; Maree, M D; Matthee, J C; Matthee, P A; Meiring, J W H; Mentz, J H W; Meyer, A T; Meyer, R P; Meyer, W D; Myburgh, G B; Nel, P J C; Niemann, J J; Odendaal, W A; Olivier, N J J; Olivier, P J S; Oosthuizen, G C; Pretorius, J F; Pretorius, P H; Radue, R J; Redinger, R E; Retief, J L; Scheepers, J H L; Schoeman, R S; Schoeman, S J (Sunnyside); Schoeman, S J (Walmer); Schoeman, W J; Schutte, D P A; Smit, F P; Smith, H J; Snyman, A J J; Steenkamp, P J; Steyn, D W; Steyn, P T; Streicher, D M; Suzman, H; Swanepoel, J J; Swanepoel, K D; Swanepoel, P J; Swart, R A F; Terblanche, A J W P S; Van Breda, A; Van de Vyver, J H; Van der Merwe, A S; Van der Walt, A T; Van Deventer, F J; Van Gend, D P de K; Van Gend, J B de R; Van Heerden, F J; Van Rensburg, H M J; Van Vuuren, L M J; Van Wyk, J A; Van Zyl, J G; Venter, A A; Viljoen, G v N; Vilonel, J J; Vlok, A J; Walsh, J J; Welgemoed, P J.

Tellers: Blanché, J P I; Jordaan, A L; Kritzinger, W T; Ligthelm, C J; Smit, H A; Thompson, A G.

NOES—19: Coetzee, H J; De Jager, C D; De Ville, J R; Derby-Lewis, C J; Gerber, A; Hartzenberg, F; Jacobs, S C; Langley, T; Mentz, M J; Mulder, C P; Nolte, D G H; Paulus, P J; Pienaar, D S; Prinsloo, J J S; Schoeman, C B; Uys, C; Van Wyk, W J D.

Tellers: Snyman, W J; Van der Merwe, J H.

Question affirmed and amendment dropped.

Bill read a second time.

Mr Chairman, permit me at the very outset to pay tribute to those of our partners without whom education in this country would be impossible. Firstly I should like to pay tribute to the inspiring teaching staff in my department who are teaching in all the provinces in the country. Under the direction of their professional leaders, within the valid structures which have been established and on the basis of strategies which are effectively deployed, they continue to guarantee the quality of our education.

I also thank the officials for their key contributions towards running as large a department as this. Let me also express my immediate thanks to the Federal Teachers’ Council and all its member associations for their excellent contributions and their indispensable participation on a variety of committees. Also a word of special thanks to our parents as individuals, but also as members of the parents’ associations which I have recently recognised.

Order! Hon members must not converse so loudly; I can hardly hear the hon the Minister. The hon the Minister may proceed.

The purposeful participation of these partners of ours has added a new dimension to the provision of education.

Before presenting the Committee with a few ideas, I am sure I shall be permitted to express my particular thanks and appreciation to my Superintendent-General, Mr Terblanche, his department and his officials at head office and here in Cape Town. On this occasion I want to express my appreciation for the outstanding service rendered each and every day. I also want to express my personal thanks to my own ministerial staff for the exceptional support they give to me each and every day.

It is with great pride that the department’s annual report was made available a few weeks ago. I want to congratulate the department on an excellent annual report which places a wealth of knowledge and facts at the disposal of anyone who is interested.

The theme of the Department of Education and Culture this year is “Education and culture in the service of the community”, because what is education if not a service to the community? Education is indeed a proud opportunity for rendering service, firstly to one’s own community, but also to others. My department’s prime task is to furnish an educational service of quality to the Whites of the Republic of South Africa. The department is increasingly achieving this objective.

I am not the only one who says so. Permit me to quote from the January 1988 issue of Mondstuk, the official journal of the Transvaal Teachers’ Association with its more than 20 000 members, the largest teachers’ association in the country:

That is how the organised profession puts it.

White education is administered on the basis of certain principles and within the context of a given reality. I should like to confirm that White education develops with due regard to a community’s right to self-determination in respect of its education, the recognition of unity, but also diversity, the continuity between the parental home and the school, with consequent emphasis on the transfer of culture and with the child’s mother-tongue as the medium of instruction.

I should like to confirm that educational structures make provision for democratisation and for contributions by various partners, the reconciliation of centralisation and decentralisation and the optimal devolution of authority.

A part of our reality is that we live in this country with other groups. Good inter-group relations are of cardinal importance to us, and consequently a legitimate objective of our educational process. In order to achieve this goal, orderly contact is essential. Isolation serves no one’s interests—least of all those of our youth.

Specifically for that reason a clear policy was formulated and implemented for inter-group sports and cultural contact. This policy allows for the growth of mutual understanding and respect, without in any way threatening one’s own identity.

The activities of the Department of Education and Culture are primarily and ultimately aimed at serving the White community. Nevertheless we also provide others with specific services.

We provide a service because it is in the general interests of South Africa to do so. White education aims primarily at serving its own group, and will continue to do so, but where others have a need for our services, a need which is such that it does not threaten education as an own affair, we gladly provide that service. We do so because of a moral imperative. We do so because it is in the general interests of South Africa and also because what is in the general interest is also in our interest. We do so to make expertise, which is in short supply, available and of value over a wide spectrum.

This service is not provided on an artificial, integrationist, coercive basis, but on a basis of supply and demand. We do not provide this service with so-called White money, because services are furnished in accordance with the principal that every service is paid for. That is the rationale underlying the providing of a service. The policy is useful, it is meaningful, it is an honest policy and it is based on values in which we believe.

At the request of other educational departments, the department maintains hospital schools in the Cape. The National Examination Service provides other population groups with a comprehensive service. During 1987 examinations were conducted in no fewer than 3 998 subjects involving 4 687 question papers. There were slightly more than 608 000 individual subject entries received from 219 875 candidates at 716 examination centres. This is, in point of fact, a tremendous service which is being provided. The National Film Library provides a media service to schools of all population groups.

Besides the services provided by my department, there is also an opportunity to obtain the services rendered by other education departments. It is expected—this is my belief—that in the services provided in future there will increasingly be a two-way traffic.

So much for other groups, but hon members would rightly be able to ask: “What about the service to our own people?” One of the elements of our reality which must be included in the calculation is that of population numbers. In 1987 there were approximately 7 000 fewer children at school than in 1986, and in 1986 there were approximately 4 000 fewer than in 1985. Projections indicate that in the year 2000 there could be as many as 90 000 fewer pupils in our schools than in 1985. This trend has certain implications for education. There will be a long-term decrease, in real terms, in the sources generated and measured. There are schools which will have to be consolidated or closed down.

Against this background quality education and certain standards can be maintained. Standards would even increase. A rationalisation programme has been instituted in good time to ensure this, but I want to emphasise at once that it is still departmental policy that school-going children should live with their parents for as long as possible. The Department of Education and Culture will do everything in its power to continue providing education in rural areas for as long as possible.

In August 1985, after wide-ranging consultations with the respective interested parties, a blueprint for the college and school sectors was adopted. Since then the following goals have been achieved: Under the House of Assembly as the only legislative body, and the executive authority of one Minister, divided political control over White education has been abolished and educational services are furnished by one department, the Department of Education and Culture. This is under the professional control of the Superintendent-General.

The structure of my department has been regulated in such a way that a fine balance is maintained between a policy-making head office and the four executive provincial education departments. There is, in fact, a central policy-making function. Advice given to me, however, is fundamentally in the hands of those specialists who are in closest proximity to the practical situation. This is based on consensus reached by experts.

Rationalisation has taken place in many spheres. Activities aimed at rationalisation are consistently based on well-considered research and are implemented only after wide-ranging consultation. Already this has, in the general interest, resulted in cost-effective adjustments in practice and direct cost savings.

†Rationalisation has at all times been directed by principles this Government has repeatedly tested at the polls. These are firmly entrenched in our Constitution and educational legislation.

The advisory structures have been transformed. This has resulted in the expansion of parental responsibility by the extension of the powers of the governing bodies of schools, and the emergence of the provincial education councils. These bodies in particular have developed into formidable instruments of consultation and educational governance. They have already cemented the partnership between the department, parents, the profession and the community at large.

These changes have been paralleled by changes in the structures of our partners in education. Parents’ associations have been formed and I have granted them formal recognition. A body in which all the provincial parents’ associations from across the country are represented, has already been established. Any application for formal recognition will be given serious consideration.

The representatives of the Teachers’ Federal Council in education advisory bodies have continued the tradition of service to education established by its two precursors. I would like to express my heartfelt thanks for their contribution.

Clearly, new patterns have been established. These have been accompanied by the emergence of a new and exciting ethos for the department while maintaining and strengthening the ethos of each individual provincial department.

*The National Education Policy Act of 1967 was amended, a few Acts and ordinances were repealed and the Private Schools Act was placed on the Statute Book in 1986. I shall soon be introducing the Educational Affairs Act and the Technical Colleges Amendment Act. Together with the Educational Affairs Act I envisage promulgating comprehensive regulations so that schools under the auspices of White education can be administered in terms of uniform legal provisions.

To date the majority of developments that have taken place have dealt with the regulation of structures. I now briefly want to give attention to more educational-specific matters.

As far as educational technology is concerned, this auxiliary service has been considerably enhanced and extended in the past year. I shall mention only a few developments. The Directorate: Educational Technology is now supported by a network so that local needs can be put forward and local expertise utilised on a wider front. The production of software has been privatised. The emphasis, as far as visual material is concerned, has shifted from film strips and 16 mm film to videos. A dubbing service has been established so that videos, which were only available in one language, are now becoming available in other languages too. Thus international media are being made accessible to Afrikaans children.

I should like to furnish a few statistics: Since 1985 the use of videos has increased by 200% per year. It is expected that in the present financial year 1 300 new programmes will be purchased, 100 new South African programmes manufactured and 620 programmes dubbed. Since January 1988 312 educational computer programmes have been evaluated. In July they will be catalogued and will be ready for use in schools.

As far as curriculation is concerned, a start has been made on dividing syllabuses into modules. By breaking up syllabuses into independent units, in accordance with agreed objectives, a wide variety of benefits are achieved. It facilitates the revising of syllabuses and also the revision and adaption of school textbooks after syllabuses have been revised. The development of standardised aids, aimed at a specific module, can now take place and standardised item-bank tests can be determined for a given module. This leads to savings, but that is not the most important plus-factor; educational efficiency can thus be increased, and that is what we are striving to achieve.

The examination results of the Department of Education and Culture are further proof of the excellent service being furnished to the community. The flow-through rate in our schools, I can authoritatively say, compares with the best in the world. Each year our matriculation examination standards improve; a higher percentage of pupils pass and achieve a senior certificate qualification and a higher percentage achieve a matriculation exemption qualification. The achievements of our top pupils likewise improve. This is happening despite the most stringent standards imaginable being applied to question papers by external moderators. On this occasion I should like to congratulate the pupils and their parents who supported them. I also want to thank the educators who provided this excellent service.

†In the Republic of South Africa a certain degree of uniformity regarding syllabuses is desirable and has been established. This is required to ensure comparable standards and to avoid problems which develop when pupils change schools from one province to another. However, great care is taken to ensure that the uniformity does not lead to stultifying rigidity, which would make it impossible to effect the adjustments which are necessary to provide for regional differences and an individual ethos.

It is often suggested that a single textbook should be set in a particular subject and course for the whole department. Such a step would appear to be economical and practical. It would, however, lead to a rigidity and drabness of presentation, place a limitation on the challenges presented to pupils and would stifle the interest of both pupil and teacher. This is clearly a case where educational loss would more than offset any material gain.

The question of uniforms is currently again being widely debated. The hon the State President requested that the matter be thoroughly investigated.

*My department therefore initiated an investigation to determine how the cost of school uniforms could be kept as low as possible. Consultations were held on a wide front and the following interested parties made contributions: A random sampling of 4 512 parents from all over the country by means of questionnaires, 396 school principals by means of questionnaires, stockists, manufacturers, the South African Bureau of Standards, which launched a standardisation programme as far back as 1979, and the organised profession. In-depth research was done on the basis of recently published material and relevant documents. The investigation revealed the following: Approximately 75% of parents are in favour of retaining their school’s present school uniforms, provided that certain savings can be effected without jeopardising the school’s traditional image. Approximately 50% of parents regard the cost of school uniforms as reasonable or even low. Approximately 40% of the respondents were in favour of guidelines for fewer variations in school uniforms as a cost-saving measure.

Some schools and communities have already taken steps to effect savings. Since there is still considerable room for further rationalisation, however, the following practical guidelines, which deserve serious consideration, are now being provided: Due consideration should be given to parents’ economic position when school uniforms are prescribed. School uniforms should not be prescribed on a haphazard basis for each and every school activity, nor should frequent changes in uniforms be made. Exclusive items of clothing should not be prescribed for matriculation pupils, first teams or prefects. New pupils should be allowed, where necessary, to wear their previous school’s uniform until it has to be replaced. Unnecessary items of school clothing should be eliminated. Expensive items such as blazers should be optional wear, particularly for primary school pupils. Schools in the same feeder-area should co-operate so that the same basic school uniform is prescribed. I am grateful to be able to say that there are already areas in which schools are doing this. New uniforms should gradually be phased in. Contracts for the furnishing of school uniforms should not subject parents to monopolistic business practices, specifically when one bears in mind the Maintenance and Promotion of Competition Act of 1979. Basic items such as shirts, socks and shoes should be more widely available than merely at specific stockists.

Since a school’s school uniform is determined by a decision taken by governing bodies as representatives of the parents and by the school principal, parents are jointly responsible for the costs of their children’s school uniforms. Parents are hereby encouraged to acknowledge their relevant responsibility and to exercise their right to ensure that their wishes are taken into consideration. A very serious appeal is being made to parents, governing bodies and school principals to do everything possible, within the given guidelines, to keep the costs of school uniforms as low as possible. A media statement about this matter, containing these and further guidelines, will be issued immediately after this speech has been delivered.

Progress has also been made in the non-specialist spheres. Since the beginning of 1988 I have entrusted a significant number of functions to the respective Directors of Education. This delegation of functions, together with the delegation of powers to the Superintendent-General and his officials, represent a considerable step in terms of present legislation. Naturally this does not include the political and policy functions which fall under my jurisdiction and that of the ministerial representatives. This development, in itself, represents a significant devolution of authority, and attests to confidence in the ability of the Directors of Education to carry out these functions. This confidence is based on the unique character, but also the joint expertise, to be found in each of the provincial education departments.

†The compassionate face of education has been retained and clearly demonstrated. Our schools across the country showed sympathy to those involved in the emergency situation caused by the floods. Our schools made contributions in two phases. For this I wish to thank them sincerely. During the first phase an amount of R341 000 was handed over to the Flood Relief Fund and this amount has since more than doubled.

*What my department has achieved—everything that is being planned—has been done in the service of the community. That is why my department chose as its theme this year “Education in the service of the community”. It is therefore important that this service, as requested by our hon State President, should be manifested in our appreciation for and love of our national symbols and the irrevocable commitment of our youth to those values embodied in our Constitution’s credo. The time has come for those of us in the RSA to breathe life into our national symbols, not simply being content to know about them. In pursuance of the hon the State President’s request in this connection, I want to announce that the credo will be made available in each and every departmental school. Not only will it occupy a place of honour in every school, but its content and significance will be brought home to every pupil so that he can fully understand what is written there. I should like to express my appreciation for the respect accorded our national symbols in numerous schools, and I express the hope that this will take place to an even greater extent in every school. In this way we shall be confirming the faith on which we build our future.

It is on the basis of this faith that the Department of Education and Culture serves the community.

Mr Chairman, I request the privilege of the half-hour. This afternoon the hon the Minister raised quite a few matters which I shall return to in the course of my speech. I want to emphasise a few matters here at the beginning of my speech and say that we are very grateful to the hon the Minister for giving us the assurance this afternoon that it is Government policy to have children attend school from their parental home for as long as possible. That is also the standpoint of this side of the House.

We are also very glad to know that the hon the Minister launched an investigation into school uniforms and parents’ feelings on the subject. I personally am very glad that he has not done away with school uniforms. At the same time I believe that an extreme situation can arise in which so many forms of school uniforms are being prescribed that the parents can no longer afford them. We are also glad to know that the hon the Minister wants to give the national symbols of our country and our people a place of honour in schools. As far as that aspect is concerned, he may rest assured that this side of the House will always support him.

The hon the Minister also referred to the Government’s policy of optimal devolution of power. At a later stage I shall return to this matter and to other matters which the hon the Minister raised.

I want to express my appreciation for what has been done in the Department of Education and Culture for White education this year. We on this side of the Committee sense that education enjoys the highest priority among the officials in the department. On this occasion we should like to express our gratitude for the share the Superintendent-General of Education and his personnel had in the development of an effective administration in respect of White education.

In addition I personally want to thank the personnel of the hon the Minister’s office for their friendliness and helpfulness. I also want to express my sincere thanks for the interview the hon the Minister granted me and the friendly way in which he received me. Once again I should like to tender my apologies for the fact that I shall not be able to be present here tomorrow during his reply. In the discussion of this Vote the CP would also like to express its gratitude to the teachers and lecturers in our country. We think that teachers and lecturers are generally speaking people who carry out their task of education with honour and dignity. They are people who compel respect from our children and society and who convey exemplary values to our children.

Since we hear that there are many teachers who are leaving the teaching profession or who are seriously considering doing so—we understand their present difficult financial position—I want to appeal to them this afternoon to remain in education for the sake of our country and our people. It would have disastrous results if there were large-scale resignations, especially in those categories in which there is already a shortage of staff.

This afternoon I should like to appeal once again to the hon the Minister to urge the hon the Minister of National Education to take another look at the backlog in teachers’ salaries.

This year education has been discussed on several occasions in the House. We welcome that. Today education is one of the most relevant issues on our agenda, not only because it is being seized upon as a means to political change in our country, but also because this is where the consequences of the Government’s reform policy are beginning to leave visible scars.

The hon the Minister himself admitted in this House that the provincial educational departments had indicated at the beginning of last year that there were not sufficient funds available to provide for the basic educational needs of the White child. He went on to state that essential equipment and the rendering of a number of important educational services had had to be curtailed or postponed. We should like to thank the hon the Minister for his honesty in this regard. It is in accordance with reality.

White education is having to do without certain essential equipment and manage without a number of important educational services. Responsible people in educational circles agree with the hon the Minister and his particularly accurate observation. They state that a lack of funds is putting a spoke in the wheel of effective education for White pupils.

The lack of funds obliges governing bodies to circulate an increasing number of fund-raising forms among parents. This year a well-known high school here in the Cape is trying to raise R70 000. The reasons given in the circular to parents for this collection were inter alia-. The purchase of stationery due to shortages, R5 000; an amount payable for duplicating work per month for class use, R700—that is, R8 400 per annum; an amount payable for water and electricity per month, R900—that is R10 800 per annum.

This is but one of the many examples which are being brought to the attention of the CP. every day. We assume the hon the Minister will use this debate to inform the Committee and the general public as to how he plans to save White education from this financial predicament.

I want to broach a few other matters this afternoon and I shall start with the thorny issue of party politics in education. Last year the hon the Minister requested that party politics be kept out of education as far as possible. That is a fair standpoint, and I share that standpoint with the hon the Minister. I also believe that educationalists and the organised teaching profession share this standpoint. We therefore agree in principle on this matter, but what is the Government doing in this regard? They are in fact politicising education and polarising the parent communities. I am referring specifically to the recent declaration by the hon the Minister concerning the new sports and cultural policy for schools. In terms of that declaration the decision concerning participation in mixed school sports and cultural activities has been passed on to the headmaster and the school’s governing body.

The reason for this is obvious. The Government does not have the courage to enforce a mixed educational programme in schools and now they are creating a situation in which it is gradually being introduced into education by certain liberal-orientated communities, against the wishes of the vast majority who do not want it that way. [Interjections.]

Does the Government not realise what extremely detrimental consequences such a spineless attitude is going to have on parent communities? [Interjections.] It is going to carry party politics into our schools on an unprecedented scale. It is now becoming even more important for a parent to know who on the governing bodies is looking after the interests of his child. Those representatives now have to take political decisions which intimately affect their children at school.

This afternoon I want to predict that this so-called “local option” is going to bring about even greater dissension and polarisation than already exists in our parent communities. [Interjections.] The Government must not devolve party political decisions to governing bodies and then ask that party politics be kept out of schools.

Are you afraid of what the parents might decide?

The Government must not place harsh party politics, mixed schools’ sport and mixed cultural activities and educational programmes on the agenda of governing bodies, and refuse to accept the consequences. It is the same transparent tactic as arming oneself to the teeth and then piously request the enemy not to participate in the arms race.

The CP maintains that the NP is displaying a lack of courage. Governing bodies are being pressured into accepting racially mixed educational programmes, and then the Government hides behind the fact that they are not the ones who took the final decision.

That is absolutely untrue.

The CP maintains that when important policy matters are at stake in education, such as mixed school sports or educational programmes the Government must have the courage to adopt a standpoint and not try and sit on three or four stools at the same time.

We reject this new sports and cultural policy not only because it is a further stepping stone to mixed education, but also because it will bring about great dissension and polarisation in parent communities.

I want to broach a second matter concerning politicking in schools, namely the witch hunt which has been conducted against a headmaster in Pretoria for the past few months. As far as I could determine, he was eventually charged with misconduct inter alia because he did not complete a prescribed form for a CP bring-and-braai at his school and also because someone from outside came to make a speech at the school.

Was it a speech?

Firstly I want to object to the way in which pupils of that school were involved in the initial investigation. Three superintendents were sent to the school by the TED to the school to determine whether there were reasons for a complaint against that headmaster. Not only did they cross-examine a female teacher of that school for nearly three-quarters of an hour in an effort to force an admission from her about her alleged membership of a certain organisation, but they also placed school children under tremendous emotional pressure shortly before the final exam. One boy’s parents informed me that he was interrogated for three hours by those three superintendents.

Did you ascertain the facts?

Irrelevant questions such as the following were put to him: “Where do your parents work and what political party do they vote for? Which teachers belong to the CP?”

Today I cannot find terms strong enough to condemn this sort of conduct. [Interjections.] It occurred during school hours, and I think the hon the Minister owes it to this Committee to explain the circumstances of that incident to us and to say whether he is in agreement. If not, he must say whether he intends to take disciplinary steps against those involved.

Explain Rev Cruywagen’s speech to us!

That is the crudest form of victimisation of a defenceless Std 9 pupil that I have ever heard of. It sounds to me like a medieval inquisition.

What about your AWB indoctrination?

I wonder where it would have ended if those parents involved had not threatened to take legal steps against the TED.

Are you sure of your facts?

This afternoon the hon the Minister must tell us and the parent communities in South Africa whether the misuse of children in this reckless way against conservative people in education is going to be allowed. [Interjections.] If he does not repudiate this conduct in public, we assume that it took place with his full knowledge and with his full approval.

Yes!

I accept that the hon the Minister took cognisance of the standpoints adopted by approximately 300 parents of that school during a meeting last week.

Under the direction of Mossie van der Berg!

They unanimously resolved that a committee should investigate the possibility of legal steps arising from the improper interrogation of the children. [Interjections.] They further resolved, and in this regard we ask for the hon the Minister’s attention in particular, that any steps promoting integration in education be rejected.

They also reject the campaign initiated by the MP for Innesdal and continued by the TED and they express their full appreciation and support for that headmaster. Here the hon the Minister, who said that parents’ wishes should also be taken into consideration, has a very clear standpoint from those parents involved.

Secondly I want to refer to the double standards which apparently apply in education now. This particular headmaster was inter alia accused of not having completed a prescribed form for a CP bring-and-braai at the school. However, what seems to be strange—it is apparent from the reply the hon the Minister gave me here in this House to a question I put—is that that headmaster did not complete a prescribed form on another occasion as well. He did not complete one in respect of a CP bring-and-braai, nor did he have one completed with regard to meetings of a certain secret organisation.

He was charged in respect of the first meeting; but he was not charged concerning the others, and that was, according to the reply which the hon the Minister gave me, a smaller gathering about which he was able to use his own judgment. What a farce! [Interjections.]

What a farce! What is the difference between a CP meeting and the meeting of a secret organisation? [Interjections.] The only difference was that the members of the CP came to a braai at the school in public in view of everyone, while the other organisation, as in many other schools, apparently sat and schemed about how they could bring a majority of Blacks into the country’s government. [Interjections.] No permission was required for the secret gathering; for the CP gathering the letter of the law had to be complied with. [Interjections.]

In this regard I am also referring to a reply which the hon the Minister gave here in which he acknowledged that the C R Swart High School had held three NP committee meetings without completing that form. In this case as well there was no prosecution; apparently because it was such an extremely small meeting.

Discrimination!

The accusation I want to level at the NP Government today is that because they are familiar with the pre-1948 history, and because they harbour a mortal fear of the conservative teacher in this country, they are doing everything in their power at the moment to intimidate them.

That is correct!

Hear, hear!

Furthermore, I am accusing the NP of suspecting teachers who live up to and apply the principle of Christian national education in their lives of politicking, while protecting and pardoning those who promote race integration and occupy themselves directly with NP propaganda are protecting them and pardoning them.

You are insulting your own teachers!

If that is not the case, why persecute the headmaster who permitted a CP gathering at his school without completing the form? Why pardon headmasters who allow NP meetings in their schools without having that form completed?

This afternoon I want to ask the hon the Minister why cases in which the NP is blatantly favoured first have to come up for discussion in Parliament before he is prepared to take steps, and then only in certain cases. In this debate I want to put a few questions to the hon the Minister about this.

What happened to that headmaster at Winburg who publicised an NP meeting over the school intercom system? What happened to that head-master who, during last year’s general election, acted as election agent for the NP candidate? Does the hon the Minister approve of the fact that at the Vredendal High School the principal had an announcement made at this school that pupils should try to attend a youth rally at Piketberg—a rally which subsequently turned out not to be an innocent meeting of young people, as the hon the Minister of Defence tried to tell us earlier this week, but which was in fact the celebration of the 40th, and I almost want to say the last, year of National Party Government. [Interjections.] It was a rally to which the pupils were taken in the school bus—a school bus for which CP parents and others also paid—and at which they had to listen inter alia to a Defence Force officer and two Ministers of this House.

Disgraceful!

According to the hon the Minister it is in order for a teacher of the Witteberg High School in Bethlehem to present a lecture to his children in the school on a right-wing organisation to present this organisation in a negative light and to conclude the lecture with these words: “Now you know whom you must vote for.”

Disgraceful!

Does the hon the Minister approve of the fact that the headmaster of Stellenbosch High School encouraged his pupils to attend a so-called multi-cultural recreational camp—merely an erudite name for a motley, mixed weekend camp? Is the hon the Minister able to reconcile with his conscience that he expects schools to support the Great Trek Festival of the FAK, while he knows that the majority of Afrikanerdom support another Great Trek Festival. [Interjections.] He can quite probably do so because this hon the Minister and his party now have two criteria—one for the NP and one for the other political parties in this House.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member?

Mr Chairman, I am not prepared to reply to questions. I have a speech to complete. [Interjections.] Is it not true that at the moment the way is being subtly prepared for the policy of power sharing, the one nation policy, of the governing party?

Of course!

Is the prescribed book for matric pupils in the Cape—Bonga, by Elsa Joubert—not a typical example of how pupils are being indoctrinated to accept marriages between separate racial groups as desirable and normal? In a review on this book, an Afrikaans subject head said inter alia-.

A little further he went on to say:

A little further we read:

What do you know about literature? Nothing! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, even when the legislation against mixed marriages was being abolished the NP itself was still saying that to them marriages across the colour bar were simply undesirable, but that kind of thing should not be prohibited by legislation. They argued that children should be educated in such a way that they would not resort to such a practice. Now, it is being presented in prescribed books to matric pupils as being fit and proper, and as a method of bringing about reconciliation between the various population groups.

I shall go further. I do not want to cross swords with the Director of Education in Transvaal, but when he said the following in Beeld of 13 April this year, he should have known that he could expect a reaction from the CP. He said:

A little further he went on to say:

Mr Chairman, I am of the opinion that we on this side of the House can justifiably put this question to this Director—especially if we listen to the “hear, hears” on the other side of the House—whether that is not the idiom of the NP. Is it not the language of that party, that proceeds from the standpoint that all the inhabitants of South Africa form one nation? [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members are making too many comments.

Furthermore I ask whether the parents of the Transvaal cannot justifiably ask whether the Director is not perhaps trying to force the NP’s policy down our children’s throats when he says that preparing children for that kind of reality cannot be left to chance? Does he now consider it to be the duty of the schools to do that?

Does the NP now want to turn schools into political battlefields where the children are ultimately going to be the losers? Is that what the Government means when it says that children in their formative years must be led to participation in a new style of negotiation?

This afternoon I want to tell the Director in all sincerity, a person whom I hold in high esteem, that there is a growing majority of parents who do not endorse the so-called collective future, as advocated by the NP. They believe in a future of their own for their people. They believe that that own future must be created inter alia by having separate educational systems for each people, and they do not believe in race integration, mixed educational programmes or mixed sport at school. Not only do they reject it; they are fighting it. It is in conflict with their view of life. They rebel against it, as was clearly demonstrated by that parents’ meeting held at a school in Pretoria, to which I referred.

They endorse what the chairman of the Transvaal Teachers’ Association said as recently as June last year regarding contact:

I also want to refer to the participation or non-participation of teachers in the coming municipal elections. Arising from the replies which the hon the Minister gave to questions in this regard, there is doubt as to what the position of teachers is.

The hon the Minister said that teachers, with the necessary permission, could in fact participate but, he added, the ordinances and regulations specified that a teacher was not allowed to express opinions in public concerning a matter which could be beneficial or detrimental to the interests of a political party.

What the hon the Minister is in fact saying therefore amounts to more or less the following: You may participate, but you may not participate either. He may be a candidate in a municipal election, but he may not say that he is in favour of the retention of the Group Areas Act, for he would then be acting in a way that could be detrimental to the position of the NP. He may make himself eligible for election, but he may not say that he is opposed to racially mixed regional services councils, because in so doing he would be acting against the interests of the NP. Surely that is the essence in the municipal elections. Surely these powers have now been devolved to the level of local government.

Why is the hon the Minister not honest with the educationists instead? Why does he not tell them frankly that they may not participate in municipal elections; that he is depriving them of that civil right? Surely they would then know where they stood with the hon the Minister.

Do you want to do that?

Allow me to …

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member?

No, Sir, I only have two or three minutes left in which I have to complete my speech. [Interjections.]

Allow me to refer as well to the reply by the hon the Minister in which he said that during the 12 months prior to 22 March 1988 50 teachers had requested permission to participate. According to the reply which the hon the Minister furnished me with in Afrikaans—it differs from the reply he gave me in English—four applications were turned down, 15 approved and most of them were still under consideration. In the Afrikaans text it was stated that Mr J P G Els of the Doornbult Primary School’s application had been approved, while the English text said that it was still under consideration.

Neither of these two replies from the hon the Minister are factually correct. Mr Els’ application was turned down before October 1987, when a by-election in a ward in Makwassie took place.

This afternoon I want to submit that it is not in the interests of education to deprive teachers of their basic civil rights. [Interjections.] Ultimately it creates an unhappy, frustrated teaching staff. It deprives people of their will to work and their job satisfaction.

The CP wants to see teachers experiencing happiness in their profession and not being caged in like children and prevented from applying their skills outside of education in the interests of their community as well.

The NP’s conduct in this regard, even more so than the remuneration issue, will force the leaders out of education, to the great detriment of the education of our youth. There is a lesson the Government has apparently not learnt yet: One cannot force somebody through intimidation to change their view of life; when one intimidates a person, one bolsters his opposition to one. Nor can one win people’s goodwill through extortion; extortion nurtures rebellion and bitterness.

Today I want to state that that is what the NP is bringing into education at present.

Mr Chairman, it is impossible for me to follow up in the same vein on the political tirade of that retired dominee. [Interjections.] I cannot allow education to sink to that level. He is the hon member who sat for four years in a theological faculty to study exegetics. He went to learn foreign languages to ensure that he would search for the truth in every text he studied. He has been seriously warned about Biblical ventriloquism and against the one major trap into which he could fall, namely the preaching of dogma. Yet here he is in his political capacity, and he is nothing but a political sectarian. [Interjections.]

He wrests facts out of context and phrases political facts in such a way that the truth is slanted. He erects his deformed straw doll, and presents it as the truth, and does all this merely to achieve one thing, and that is to create naked fear and insecurity about the NP here. [Interjections.] Who started first with politics in education? [Interjections.] There in the CP benches a man sat with a strange stripe through his hair. He was Dr Frans van Staden, who said that the first sphere they would enter would be to occupy the school management systems.

You started it! [Interjections.]

They have now very deftly turned things around, and he talks as if it was the NP who started it. [Interjections.] I despise this kind of argument in an education debate, and I prefer to distance myself from it. [Interjections.]

Order! The committee cannot go on in this way. I cannot allow hon members to react in a chorus of comment to what is being said by an hon member who is speaking. The hon member may proceed.

I should like to associate myself with the long list of congratulations and expressions of thanks by the hon the Minister to the heads and officials of his department in the provincial divisions and in all its dimensions at its headquarters, and to each person in education who in the year that has gone by, participated in the marvellous achievements of organised education in the broadest sense of the word. We want to congratulate and thank them for another successful year in the education of our White children. It was organisationally, administratively and educationally successful, and another year characterised by great heights has drawn to a close.

We also express our sincere thanks for the political guidance the hon the Minister provided, and for the way in which our Superintendent-General made his office available to us for what we needed to evaluate this Vote.

The most wonderful thing that struck me in researching education was that in Europe and the USA the South African educational philosophy and implementation of its macro- and micropolicy made such an impression that at most they could but admire it, although in doing so, they would acknowledge that it would be impossible for them to administer it. “Macro” refers to the general norms and standards, and “micro” refers to the particular, individual character which has been refined as far as the point of contact with the parental home. They consider it to be an absolute model and something which they can only yearn for. They admire us for having made it part of our system, but they acknowledge that they cannot implement it. Hence our sincere gratitude that we have already implemented and refined it in South Africa to the level at which it stands at present. I also want to express our sincere congratulations for that achievement.

I have here a copy of Nuusflitse of April 1988. One is deeply impressed by the high level at which so many professional matters are discussed and one marvels at the fact that the profession communicates and co-operates so regularly with the Minister to make education better and more effective. The issue in this edition of Nuusflitse is teachers’ salaries, but what struck even there was that what was being dealt with was means of negotiating a better dispensation for education. The only intention was to provide the best service for education and the child. That is why there is no mention here of Black Peril (Swart Gevaar), or the Africanisation or politicisation of education. I only have the highest appreciation for what we have been able to do.

Education can flourish best in the area which encloses a child in the triangle of home, church and school. From this three profound truths are apparent. If the church does not fulfil its task, the child suffers in terms of spiritual growth; less faith, less hope and less love. If the family collapses, these bonds disintegrate and if the child loses his grip on discipline and the values which form him, he loses his character and values in life. If education does not fulfil its calling, if its idealism, dedication and attempts at establishing values weaken, a people’s survival is jeopardised. Each one of these three institutions have their own intrinsic and full-fledged task, and together they deliver the next generation to its destiny.

Every teacher or educator would like to fix, lay down and inculcate in the lives of the child these values during every class period. The moment the so-called “lifestyle education” becomes a full-fledged subject which is given once a day or at times during the week, education becomes the sole bearer of the original triangle, and then—I am sorry that I have to put it so crudely—education becomes the dumping-ground of a fallen society—education alone cannot accept responsibility for mistakes which are made in society and that is what I in fact want to emphasise.

We are living in a revolutionary century, a revolution against the soul of man. Loose morals, immorality, disregard for and evasion of authority, work-shyness, incorrect use of time, addiction, increasing uncertainty and the pursuit of superficial values—for the most part money—and a selfish living for oneself alone are typical of this century.

There is one thing we may not forget, however. The child has the right to be a child. To continually confront him with situations requiring the solution of problems and the continual changing needs of the day, is to deprive him of his childhood. Security is for him a prerequisite for courage and faith in his future and for his enthusiasm for life. How can he, while he still has to grow up, preserve his enthusiasm for life if he is in the formative stage exposed to social malpractices such as murder and theft, suicide and deceit, swindling and forgery, depression and extravagance, divorce and child neglect, rape and immorality?

If the school’s main task to convey knowledge is too heavily loaded with the mere accoutrements of education, either one or the other will be lost. Unlike an animal which inherits his future behaviour, the child must acquire his. Education has no panacea for solving future problems. It works only with fixed values ranging from the known to the unknown, and prepares the young child for choices on the basis of this determination of values. Its growth therefore arises from its spiritual dimensions.

The NP’s educational policy was born from this basic philosophy, and today the NP is still firmly committed to this basic philosophy. It has no racial connotation. It is an essential premise. Without it meaningful education is impossible.

By unleashing a revolution in the Church in this critical world and causing the one side of the triangle to disintegrate; to unleash confusion inside cultural certainty thereby causing another side to disintegrate; and to encourage opposition to authority and disobedience and to condone lawlessness, is to prepare for national suicide. The situation in the RSA makes the task of education even more burdensome.

Order! I am sorry, but the hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I am merely rising to give the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Sir, I extend my sincere thanks to the hon Whip of the CP for the opportunity.

On the one hand to prepare our youth in isolation, wearing blinkers as if they exist in isolation in Africa and can survive alone, is stupid and shortsighted. By the same token it is catastrophic for one to leave one’s foundation and to build on alien ground and in uncertainty. The answer lies in a balanced reconnaissance from the familiar and courageous growth to a future in which one believes because one’s roots are firmly established. The church, home and school are a unity, and they must form the basis of society, but the diversity of communities forms the whole of Southern Africa of which we are a part. In this spirit we on this side of the committee salute everyone who within this triangle encloses the area in which the education and the training of the child of today has to be completed. I can suggest nothing better to them than Langenhoven’s old wisdom of many years ago which says:

In presenting this terrain to hon members today, I conclude the thought with an extract that I am about to quote to hon members. If a 19-year-old youth on the border of South Africa can find this extract among the scant reading matter with which they are provided, among all the second-hand material and the few new items they are able to get hold of, and sends it to his mother, only then do we understand what the basis of parenthood and household ties is, and what the force of the triangle is within which he grew up. This extract was written by-Irma-Bombeck, and this is what the son sent to his mother:

If we are going to wrestle with the child to tarnish his life for our own gain, we should read this extract again. When one argues about this creation of God in respect of its professionalisation, we should go and read this extract again. The mother lays the foundation and she took the baptismal oath for that child who is in the hands of the teacher for only six out of 24 hours a day and at most 200 days of the 365 days in the year. The teacher can only build on this foundation. When they eventually, with what we have been able to measure, arrive at their final product, we salute them out of respect and gratitude that we can still say this to each other today.

Mr Chairman, I request the privilege of the second half-hour.

All of us in this House can obviously identify ourselves with the sensitive matters on which the hon member for Brentwood touched in the latter part of his address. I have no intention of repeating those. However, I do want to touch on something that he said at the beginning, and something which the hon member for Brits said, namely the question of politicising education.

I looked back at Press cuttings of the last time we debated this Vote in this House in September and those of yesterday, and by far the greater majority of them are concerned with politics and education. They are concerned with the case quoted by the hon member for Brits; they are concerned with the remarks made by the hon member for Innesdal and the fact that the hon the Minister had to refute him and the subsequent comments made back and forth. What I am saying is that, like it or not, education and politics are inextricably intertwined. They will be in this House, and I would like to plead that we keep politics, and especially party politics, out of the classroom.

When one looks at the history of education in this country one will, no doubt, find that it is certain communities and certain political groups that have suffered from party-political attacks in education and other groups and communities and parties that have carried them out. The expression I used a little earlier in an interjection, “To be hoist with one’s own petard”, I think is particularly applicable to the NP. They have done it for years and now it is happening to them.

I want to respond a little later to what the hon the Minister had to say, but let me first of all make a few remarks concerning the tabling yesterday, as First Reading, of the Education Affairs Bill (House of Assembly). It is a Bill which will no doubt bring us face to face with the manner in which this hon the Minister handles his portfolio. This Bill is already No 7 on the Order Paper and, as far as we have been able to ascertain, has not yet been circulated to all members.

We in the PFP have praised the thousands of teachers, educational experts and officials who work in this department. We believe they are committed to the very best in education and that that commitment is best expressed by their service to the children of South Africa. Our criticism, therefore, is levelled at this hon Minister’s handling of this department, in particular the execution of the NP’s political views on education—especially racial separatism—together with an almost phobic desire for secrecy.

During this debate my colleagues from Durban North and Cape Town Gardens and I will be looking at a number of aspects of the department today and tomorrow, and we will also be making reference to the significant position of culture in our society. However, I do need to express quite clearly my great unhappiness at the manner in which this hon the Minister and some of his NP backbenchers have handled the matter of this Bill and pre-primary education.

You are always unhappy!

I hope those hon members will listen carefully to this.

I should like to go through the chronology of events and point to one or two significant questions regarding open government and this Bill. Before I start, I want to state something categorically. The Bill, of which a copy was put into my possession last year, was not, as suggested by this hon Minister and the hon member for Umhlatuzana, given to me by the Natal Teachers’ Society. Anybody who suggests that it was, is a liar.

The Bill was first drafted for internal discussion by that department …

Order! I have been listening carefully to the hon member. The hon member said that the hon member for Umhlatuzana had said that the draft had been given him by somebody. He subsequently said that anybody who said that, was a liar.

Mr Chairman, may I just read what I said? I was put in possession of a copy of the draft Bill. It was not done, as suggested by this Minister and the hon member for Umhlatuzana, by the Natal Teachers’ Society, and anybody who says it was, is a liar.

Order!

Mr Chairman, may I just say that I said the hon the Minister and the hon member “suggested” that it was given to me by those people. They did not say that it was given to me by them.

Order! The hon member may continue.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I should like to issue an invitation to the hon member for Pinetown …

Order! No, the hon member cannot issue an invitation now. The hon member for Pinetown may proceed.

The Bill was first drafted for internal discussion in this department during late 1986 as a composite of four education ordinances and other measures—the education ordinances totalled just under 300 pages—together with several significant variations that created new powers not provided for in those ordinances.

During 1987 it was discussed by various bodies, and different drafts were produced as is normal in departments. By October the draft—we understand it was the fifth draft; I made reference to that before—was submitted to members of the provincial education councils for their discussion—in total over 160 people—in a copy which was, as far as I am aware, not marked “confidential”. At those provincial education council meetings this hon Minister requested that the discussions be held in private and so I and members of the media were thrown out of the meeting so that the Natal Provincial Council could discuss it in private as the hon the Minister wanted.

In several of these councils the Bill was only discussed very briefly and written comments were invited to be co-ordinated by an executive of each council and submitted to the hon the Minister by mid-November.

I should point out in this connection that the hon the Minister, in the debate we had on this Vote last year during September, informed this House that the education councils would have the opportunity to debate and comment on the Bill. So they did. They received the Bill, but they did not debate it in public. In addition, we should also say that, as far as we are aware, they did not in fact then circulate it to their constituencies—the school committees, the parent bodies or the teacher organisations at that level. Besides the comments of the education councils the hon the Minister was by November already in possession of the comments of the teachers’ associations linked to the Teachers’ Federal Council. In this connection I must make reference to the hon the Minister’s speech (Hansard: Assembly, 4 September 1986, col 11566-7), on the question of a select committee. We were discussing a particular measure at that stage and the hon the Minister replied to the then member for Kuruman, Mr Hoon, as follows:

I will touch on that at greater length tomorrow.

If we use pre-primary schools as one example of the PFP’s unhappiness with the draft measure, I wish to point out that on 29 October 1987—the hon the Minister can verify this—the hon member for Durban North and I issued a public Press statement after meeting the leadership of the Natal Pre-Primary Teachers’ Association.

We discussed amongst other things the questions on pre-primary education I had put to the hon the Minister over a two-year period. We considered the work of the committee appointed by the Committee of Heads of Education to look into all aspects of pre-primary schooling, and we also considered the position of pre-primary schools in the Education Affairs Bill which as I pointed out in that Press release, had been discussed behind closed doors by the Natal Education Council on Tuesday of that same week. I wish to quote from that Press release:

You made it so!

The hon member must please listen. I continue:

Including that one—

Yes, all facets are under discussion—

That is what was in the original draft Bill of October 1987—

We told the people to ask their MPs about it. I continue quoting from the Press release:

Following that meeting and that Press release on 29 October 1987 the PFP had no contact whatsoever with the Natal Pre-Primary Teachers’ Association. We played no role in its deliberations and gave them no advice on petitions or actions in contacting other bodies. They acted totally independently and, as far as we know, without any party-political link. They devised a course of action which they put into practice.

As the hon the Minister noted in an answer given in this House, he received petitions signed by over 36 000 parents in connection with the exclusion of provincially controlled pre-primary schools from the draft Bill. We also understand that individual parents and school committees spoke with individual MPs in connection with this matter.

I am pleased that provincially controlled schools are now mentioned in the Bill which is on the Order Paper. I saw and I understand the hon the Minister’s Press release in February that they were left out by mistake. So be it. I am not going to argue about that at this stage. But, I want to point out that I did not and have never personally claimed any credit for myself or the PFP for bringing about this change. My credit goes unreservedly to the Natal pre-primary teachers and parents, and I would quote from the letter of the chairlady of the central branch in The Daily News of 24 March. I quote:

Why then are you trying to score points?

Mr Chairman, if the hon member for Germiston District does not believe that certain of the incorrect statements made in this House should be corrected, then maybe sometimes he, too, will keep quiet.

He did not even get as far as pre-primary school!

The hon the Minister will understand that the coming meetings of the Committee of Heads of Education looking into pre-primary education will be viewed with great concern by the teachers and the parents in that phase. I hope that once again we can have a united stand. I hope that this time both the hon member for Umhlatuzana who feuded with me on this matter—not in this House but elsewhere—and I can reach a common stand on the importance of pre-primary schooling. I am certain we can, and I hope the NP will identify itself with the pre-primary phase.

I now want to look briefly at the Bill itself. If I may, I just want to say a word about an article on the Bill in today’s Financial Mail, an article called “Changing strategy”. I am quoted in it, and I thus find it necessary to at least make a remark or two about it. I was asked certain questions, to which I responded, concerning the draft Bill—the person who wrote this article obviously had access to it, and I did not supply him with it, Mr Chairman, in case the hon the Minister ever wants to ask. There are clearly several factual errors in this article. It was never read to me when it was finished, otherwise I would have made it quite clear that those errors should be corrected. No doubt the hon the Minister will react to this tomorrow.

Regarding the Bill itself, I will devote some time tomorrow to a discussion of it and in particular the question of the devolution of authority to directors of education, and of the political rights of teachers.

Briefly, then, Mr Chairman, I would like to look at culture. The hon the Minister has complained in the past that we have had insufficient debate and remarks concerning the role of culture in this department, and I think I agree with him. I am glad the hon member for Brentwood referred to it a little earlier. I think all of us have pride in the culture to which we belong. I think what is important from our party’s point of view, however, is that we do not actually link culture to race. Culture is a difficult and a different matter. It is not concerned particularly with skin colour at all. In South Africa we have people of different cultural attributes—Afrikaans, English, Portuguese, Greek, Chinese, Tamil, Gujarati, Zulu, Xhosa—a mixture in which everyone can have a pride in culture. However, when we see this Minister, and this is our difficulty, as a Minister of Own Affairs: White culture, we have particular problems. When we look at something like the Bo-Kaap Malay Museum—note that it is the Malay Museum, Mr Chairman—which actually falls under the Minister for White Own Affairs, then we actually have problems because then we think there is an obsession with colour somewhere, and not actually with culture. When this hon Minister says in this House that it is important that a school and a cultural community be tied, he is actually not meaning that at all. He is actually meaning that a school and a race group needs to be tied, and so we have problems with that.

In particular, at this time, I would like to make a remark or two concerning a doyen—if I can call him that—of the English speaking cultural community in South Africa, and I am of course referring to the late Alan Paton. Alan Paton was a man much respected, a man who upon his death received plaudits from all parties, who received applause for his literary work and attributes. It is his literary work I want to refer to today. I would just like to quote two extracts from Cry, the Beloved Country. Anybody who has been involved with education will know that this book has itself had a chequered career in regard to its acceptance as a prescribed book in the schools of South Africa. If one looks back, it is a book written in 1948—a historic year, as you will no doubt be aware, Mr Chairman. It took many, many years before it became accepted as a text book in South African schools.

I am pleased it happened. To an extent that reflects how we actually have changed over the years.

[Inaudible.]

I say we have!

Mr Chairman, I quote from Cry, the Beloved Country:

Towards the end of the novel we read the following:

And now, Sir, a last quote. Alan Paton was a true liberal. He extended his openness beyond any particular group. I want to quote from his list of words in the back of this book, his definition of Afrikaans:

Alan Paton was a man who will be remembered by all of us, particularly, as I say, for his broad humanity. What I believe we need to do today is to accept that when we look at culture and at education, we need to look at it with flexibility and with sensitiveness. We in these benches take note of the two Great Treks, the cultural events that we are going to have this year. We would plead that these be—both of them—cultural events that will bring people together and not separate them.

If I may offer, Mr Chairman, as the only member of the “Volksraad” who is fully bearded and thus can go on trek, I am quite willing to be the representative of the “Volksraad” on both treks. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to take the floor after the hon member for Pinetown has spoken. He concluded his speech on a sounder note than that on which he started speaking. In fact, at the beginning of his speech he accused me—he did so by implication—of having accused him of having received certain confidential documents from the NTS. I tried to furnish a personal explanation. I shall now do so, and in doing so I shall be very brief and to the point.

I have no recollection of ever having made such a suggestion. I immediately accept the fact, however, that there are people of the utmost integrity in the NTS management. For all I know, he stole the document. I have no idea where he got it from, and I do not want to express an opinion on that either. [Interjections.] The fact of the matter is that he had access to that document.

I want to come back to a few remarks the hon member made. Before I come to that, however, I should first just like to set out a few general, common guidelines before the two paths start to diverge.

†The political philosophy and ideology of any governing party will precipitate onto the administration of the country. We all agree on that. Hence, under an NP Government we have own schools and education departments for our various population groups.

Under a PFP or an NDM government we will have one education department and schools which will be totally integrated. These schools will eventually become predominantly Black because the Group Areas Act will no longer exist. In Natal in particular—I am talking about culture now—White English schools will bear the brunt of this PFP policy because these are the schools which the 1,2 million Zulu kids will ultimately attend.

Furthermore, under a PFP government, the various groups would sacrifice their present self-determination as far as the education of their children is concerned.

We all accept that this will happen under a PFP government.

Therefore, I agree with the hon members for Pinetown and Durban North that the policy of a party has an effect in the education sphere. However, I believe that where our ways part, is when I say that we should not exploit education for petty, party-political point-scoring exercises. Here I want to take up the challenge issued by the hon member for Pinetown, because he would say the same. However, we shall investigate his actions a little later.

I say that the PFP indulges in this type of politics and I submit that this is harmful to education. I shall proceed now to prove my point by referring to certain incidents in Natal. This brings me back to the hon member for Pinetown and I should like to devote some time here this afternoon to him and his escapades.

I want to start with a matter to which the hon member for Pinetown himself referred, namely the 97 provincially controlled pre-primary schools in Natal. During the last quarter of last year a draft Bill to provide for the provision and control of education in schools and matters relating thereto, was submitted to the provincial education council in order to enable them to suggest improvements. This draft was meant to be kept confidential in order to maintain a climate in which these professional bodies could make an uncompromised input. Unfortunately—the hon member for Pinetown admitted it—he got hold of the draft and decided to stir things up. This was done in a transparent endeavour to put himself and his party back on the political map after their crushing defeat at the polls.

He discussed his interpretation of this confidential education document ad nauseam with the Press. Herein lies the tragedy and the great weakness of that hon member: He has an absolute passion for publicity. He believes that if he is not constantly centre-stage in newspaper headlines the world will forget about him, and he is probably quite correct in so thinking! [Interjections.] As a fellow backbencher I should like to give him some advice. In politics one rides nowhere on the back of journalists or newspapers. If this were possible the PFP—and later the Worrallites and the Malanites—would have been in power long ago.

And you just rely on TV!

Order!

What did the hon member reveal to the Press about the content of this confidential education document? He said, firstly, and I quote:

These alarmist techniques exercised by the hon member for Pinetown, abetted by the hon member for Durban North, resulted in great anxiety among teachers and parents alike. The hon member referred to this.

It forced them into the streets collecting 36 000 signatures for a petition aimed at retaining these schools.

What are the facts, Sir? It has never been the intention that these schools in Natal and elsewhere should disappear. There are even more of these schools in other provinces than there are in Natal. The new Bill will indeed provide for their existence—I had said as much in the Natal Press even before any petition in this regard was received. [Interjections.] However, two days later an article appeared in The Natal Mercury in which the hon member for Durban Central—bless his soul!—quickly claimed the credit for saving Natal’s pre-primary schools. [Interjections.] There he sits! Congratulations to him!

However, that was not the end of the story—and here I come to the PFP and the hon member for Pinetown who has already declared his modesty in this regard.

By the next day, according to The Daily News, the hon member for Durban North had claimed the credit for himself and his colleagues, and I quote:

Including, of course, the hon member for Pinetown—

[Inaudible.]

I must at least give the hon member for Pinetown credit for being sensitive enough to realise the blunders of his younger colleague. He was therefore at pains to distance himself from them.

These opportunistic antics are pathetic, and are aimed at misleading the public for the sake of petty party-political gain and nothing else. [Interjections.]

Once the petitions started arriving in Cape Town, the hon the Minister of Education and Culture issued a statement in order to restore some sanity. At last the truth started to dawn in education circles, and it was realised that the hon member for Pinetown was misleading the public.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: May the hon member for Umhlatuzana say that I was misleading the public? [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Umhlatuzana did not say that the hon member for Pinetown was misleading the public deliberately. The hon member for Umhlatuzana may continue. [Interjections.]

As we have just seen, this hon member cannot afford to admit this. He preferred to accuse the hon the Minister of a cover-up. He was quoted as follows in a newspaper report:

The hon member had his facts wrong once again. [Interjections.] The Bill had been finalised in its third draft, but he simply had to present the hon the Minister as the dishonest and incompetent party in order to save his own skin. [Interjections.] He therefore turned three into eight; it was as easy as that.

Their bluff has been called, and those hon members realise it. Parents and teachers are realising it too. These hon members are going to be crucified by angry parents and teachers. Mark my words!

I have here a copy of the indaba constitution signed by the hon member for Berea on behalf of the PFP. I also have the indaba education report signed by the hon member for Pinetown himself.

And Dr Hosking!

I also have the indaba bill of rights, as endorsed by the PFP, as well as the economic report. The implication of these documents for education in Natal is a 75% drop in expenditure on White education within the first year after implementation.

That is incorrect!

Order! I regret to have to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I merely rise to give the hon member the opportunity to conclude his speech. [Interjections.]

This would indeed destroy all pre-primary education in Natal.

You know that is incorrect!

The public must therefore beware of those wolves in sheep’s clothing.

However, this is not the end of the story. The hon member for Pinetown was hell-bent on capitalising in public on his interpretation of the contents of this confidential draft Bill. He claimed the Bill—I quote:

What utter nonsense! Allow me to quote to the hon member section 55(2a) of the existing Natal education ordinance, according to which a teacher may not do the following:

Have you looked at clause 96 of the new Bill?

I put it to this hon member that, in essence, the new consolidating Bill does not go beyond what is in the existing provincial ordinances already.

Oh, yes it does. Go and read it!

I have it here, and I have read it. [Interjections.]

I must ask this hon member why he misleads the public so.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

If I have any time left, I shall answer the hon member’s question when I have finished my speech.

It is a short question.

Order! The hon member for Umhlatuzana may continue.

I could spend some time revealing the inaccuracies perpetrated by the hon member for Pinetown, but my time is limited.

I would like to turn to another of his strategies, namely the question of teachers’ salaries. Let me begin by saying that the backlog will be wiped out sooner rather than later. I can say this categorically because that is what teachers deserve, but it is not going to be easy to achieve.

At a salary protest meeting arranged by the Natal Teachers’ Society, this hon member encouraged teachers to push ahead with a motion calling upon teachers to work to rule if salaries were not increased by 11%, backdated to January this year.

That is not true and you know it!

Order! The hon member for Pinetown must withdraw that interjection.

I withdraw it.

The hon member for Umhlatuzana may continue.

Thank you for your protection, Mr Chairman.

†This was to be non-negotiable and the Government was to respond positively not later than 27 April, which was yesterday. All this was done in spite of a much more responsible approach by the Teachers’ Federal Council. For the benefit of this hon member I want to quote from a Natal newspaper editorial in this regard:

I agree.

Therefore the accusation. The hon member for Pinetown has once again given unwise counsel to teachers in Natal.

That is not the truth.

He constantly does his best to create an anti-Government climate amongst them. Why does he do things like this nowadays? It has not always been like this. I will explain why. The hon member is intelligent enough—I give him the benefit of the doubt!—to realise that his party is finished. At the next election he will hardly get back to Parliament on a PFP ticket, in which case he will have to go back to teaching or, at least, try to.

He has decided to create a “Burrows cult” in Natal. As ex-secretary of the Natal Teachers’ Society, he has decided to use his old cronies, the Natal teachers, for this purpose. He is using them and their problems in an effort not to have to go back to teaching himself.

[Inaudible.]

These activities undermine the teaching profession; they undermine the self-confidence of teachers and parents, both now and in future, and they cause disquiet based on inaccuracy. I have been told by teachers themselves that they fear that such actions, utterances and antics, as perpetrated and encouraged by this hon member, may undermine the image of the profession.

For the sake of our children’s education, I direct an appeal to the hon member for Pinetown. As a fellow backbencher I invite him to stick to the real issues in the future. Let us debate the facts, rather than create our own fictions. I appeal to him to see to it that the youngster, the hon member for Durban North, follows suit.

Finally, he and I often share political platforms—usually as opponents. It seems to be our destiny or, rather, our ordeal. I do not mind; I even enjoy sharing a platform with someone I can respect. For this to be applicable, however, there is one condition; the hon member for Pinetown should stop exploiting and undermining education for party-political ends. He should stop behaving like a mole; he should stop “burrowing” in education!

Mr Chairman, I just briefly want to refer to the speech of the hon member for Brits. The hon member launched an unwarranted attack on the Transvaal Education Department here this afternoon. He attacked the superintendents of the department for having carried out a departmental instruction.

The bona fides of a specific principal have been questioned. Why does he attack officials when they are carrying out an instruction to investigate a certain matter? It is a question of proving the bona fides of that particular principal. The instruction to those superintendents was to prove the bona fides of that principal, or his lack of bona fide. However, the hon member denigrated the departmental officials in gross, unbridled terms.

It was the way they acted!

He attacked the Director of Education because, according to the hon member, he—I could not have it checked—spelt out a simple educational principle, namely that there are various communities in South Africa which cannot live in isolation.

We really do take note of the fact that the CP have today crossed swords with the Transvaal Education Department. We on this side of the Committee reject that sick attack on an education department which has proved itself over the years …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: There is already a specific ruling in regard to the word “sick”, and in pursuance of that ruling that word has had to be withdrawn by hon members. I suggest that “sick attack” is equally unparliamentary.

Order! The word “sick” was used in a personal attack on hon members. An action is referred to here, and I think there is a big difference. The hon member for Gezina may continue.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Overvaal is trying to waste my time. I want to repeat that it is a sick attack upon an education department that has proved itself over the years to be nothing if not the servant of education. The education family will take note of this attack by the hon member for Brits. We shall deal with it further at a later stage.

Education has to do with forming the person as a whole, the way in which the child eventually becomes a person and his complete integration into his community as well as in the broader national sense. This means handling education in such a responsible way that the important component, namely the child, is not harmed. The child must never become the victim of uncoordinated education. It happens all too often, particularly in politically inspired statements, that the child’s interests are totally ignored. The child is ignored to such an extent that he becomes a ball that is tossed around, eventually making him a maladjusted person within his own society.

This is particularly true in South Africa with its various communities. Politics are beginning to grind and pressurise our children to such an extent that they eventually enter adult life bruised and seriously scarred.

In its investigation into education the HSRC found, inter alia, that both centralisation and decentralisation have to be accommodated in educational planning. This gives recognition to the two important elements in the composition of South African society, namely the recognition of a specific mutuality on the one hand, but also the recognition of the diversity of the population of South Africa on the other. This is a fact and a reality which nobody can deny. There are mutualities that have to be dealt with, but there are also various communities which have specific requirements peculiar to themselves that have to be satisfied.

That brings me to the concept of community involvement. The community cannot cut itself off from its education. Every community has an interest in the education and training of its children. In the first instance, this means parental involvement. Parents cannot and must not cut themselves off from the education of their children. It is becoming an all too common cliché that the State has to accept responsibility for education. The parent continues to be involved.

It is true that the parent may not interfere in the classroom. He cannot replace the teacher in the classroom, but it is still necessary for him to be involved as far as his healthy interest and positive involvement in the forming of the child are concerned. This positive interest has to be experienced by both the child and the teacher. The parent is not an outsider in the education and training of his child. He must remain part of it.

Involvement, of course, means more than just interest. Extramural activities are not the exclusive responsibility of the teacher. The parent can be involved fruitfully in this respect. Many schools have already succeeded in involving the parent in these activities, and with very good results. The parent must make the offer and the school must use him. This brings about a true and reciprocal involvement. Furthermore the parents must realise that they will have to be fully involved in the election of the controlling and other bodies at schools.

The principle of the devolution of authority is going to result in management bodies obtaining increased powers and responsibilities—I want to repeat the word “responsibilities”—in the future. The greater the involvement of all parents in such elections, the greater will be the responsibility of such a management or other body in supporting the wishes and desires of that particular parental community.

A further responsibility which the parents will have to accept is an increasing financial involvement. By means of school-fund and other contributions the parent is already involved to some extent. The hon member for Brits referred to this matter. However, parents and communities will have to take note of the fact that education is becoming expensive.

Education is an expensive item on the account of any community, and even if specific luxuries have to be pruned, no community will allow its education standards to be lowered. An appeal will eventually have to be made to the parents for further financial assistance. However, the community as a whole can also provide further help.

The question that will eventually have to be answered is whether the exclusive use, for example, of a school rugby or athletics field by the school is the proper thing to do. Can we still afford the luxury of school and community fields adjacent to one another? The willingness of the local authority to maintain a school field and to use it in conjunction with the school will eventually result in a saving and eliminate duplication. These possibilities must be investigated, and I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to give further attention to this matter.

In the minute or so still left to me I also want to refer to the involvement of the organised profession. Over the years the various professional bodies have established themselves and obtained a strong foothold in the educational set-up. The task of these bodies is to look after the interests of education and the profession. I also want to make it clear that we must fully understand the firmness with which they put forward the standpoints of the teachers. It may sometimes appear as though the co-ordinating council of the various associations is following the path of confrontation. I do not believe that to be so. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, at the outset I want to apologize to the hon the Minister for being unable to be here tomorrow when he replies to the debate.

May it never be possible for people to say to us that we participate in a debate on a so-called own affairs budget without once again having recorded the framework into which the Vote fits. The Department of Education and Culture, the so-called own White education department, is only a very small cog in the large wheel of Government departments. This department is not even a Government department; it is only a division of a Government department—Administration: House of Assembly. This administration is a so-called constitutionally entrenched White own affair. Although White education and culture is ostensibly an own affair, it is only a division of one of a multiplicity of Government departments. In the educational sphere it is only a division in one large undivided education system for the one multiracial nation in the NPs’ undivided South Africa in which all inhabitants, irrespective of race, colour, religion, sex or ethnic context are, according to the NP, entitled to equal educational standards and equal educational opportunities on the basis of equal citizenship rights and universal franchise.

The rest of this one single education system consists—except for the division of White education—of a division of Coloured education, one of Indian education and, of course, a fully-fledged Department of Education for the Black people. This is something which is not given to the Whites, the Coloureds or the Indians. Then there are, of course, also the six departments in the self-governing Black states.

In terms of CP policy every population group will have a fully-fledged department of education at its disposal for its exclusive and overall use in that sphere of the national economy and without interference by any other group.

Contrary to what the hon the Minister of National Education tries to suggest, the division of White education, because it is not a Government department, does not have a director-general. We simply have to be satisfied with a so-called superintendent-general. The man occupying this post compels respect in educational circles and we do respect him. We will give him all the support we can to build up White education so as to enable it to occupy its rightful place once again. We also assure him of our opposition to the present inferior position occupied by White education.

Hear, hear!

The question is now how White education is dealt with in the Government’s Budget and how it compares, for example, with Black education. The White educational division’s budget has increased by so little that once again, in real terms, we have retrogression this year. There is a reduction. [Interjections.] As far as the Black people are concerned, the educational budget has increased by 21%, and in the self-governing states, it has increased even slightly more. In real terms—something that we have already become used to over the past few years—there is a considerable increase. Those are the facts. These facts, like the facts of the past few years, form an on-going charge against those fellow-Whites at present in Government.

The next aspect that must be placed on record is that the effect of the formula in terms of which funds for education are allocated to the various population groups—the Government is still trying to keep the formula secret—will be that pupil density, average class size and the teacher:pupil ratio in White education will have to drop by not less than 50% over the period of the 10-year plan, and that almost 35 000 White teachers will have to be removed from their posts in the process.

What is the amount per child?

The hon the Minister of Education and Culture stated in a previous debate that he was not prepared to reply to this accusation until scientifically based figures had been submitted to him. The hon the Minister knows as well as I do that these figures are scientifically based figures. He is shying away from this because he knows it is the truth.

That is what we have come to expect from him.

Nevertheless, he does not want to admit it because he cannot afford to do so. If he did, it would be disastrous for the NP. It would be very easy indeed for the hon the Minister to refute these allegations that we make. All he would have to do would be to reveal that formula. However, he cannot afford to do so because then that formula would have to measure up to the truth. It would then also be proved that our statements were, in fact, correct.

Perhaps the hon the Minister is wanting to test us to see whether we have the formula. Perhaps he is counting on the fact that even if we did have it, we would not make it public.

For the sake of democracy and for the sake of our White pupils and students we ask this hon Minister to make this formula public so that the truth of our statements can be tested. The game of secrecy, where it concerns the education of our children, cannot be justified, even for the sake of the Government’s untenable ideal of equality for all the population groups in one education system.

In the light of previous experiences we have had with this Minister, I want to take the liberty of contending that the hon the Minister is again not going to reply. He is once again going to try to skirt these pertinent statements and will, in all probability, provide us with woolly ambiguities so that the ordinary honorable and well-meaning White voter will not be able to make head or tail of what he has said.

That is what we have come to expect from him.

The Government will sink into that morass of ambiguity and uncertainty simply in order to be remembered as the Government that did not have the courage of its convictions to stand up and be counted by its own people, and as the Government that was prepared to accept the price of drastically inferior conditions in White education for the sake of an unattainable political ideal.

The Government does not have the backbone to bring to fruition the ideal of freedom, independence and the maintenance of an own identity in education. Would you believe that the hon the Minister is so ashamed of his new policy on school sport and culture that he is not prepared to allow its full import to see the light of day! He issued a virtually non-explanatory statement in that regard, but when he was asked to make its full import known so that we could debate it—as ought to be the case in a working democracy—he said it was a confidential internal departmental document. Why he issued the statement, one will never understand. This is once again the old style of “just trust me; I am doing my best”, while the poor voters do not even now what they are being asked to trust the hon the Minister with.

We ask the hon the Minister to stop this game of secrecy. This may be the ethic in other circles of society known to the hon Minister, but we ask him to stop this secrecy for the sake of a working democracy because it affects the education of our children. We ask him to reveal that secret sports and cultural policy so that the light of truth can shine upon it and we can then debate it.

In question No 116 the hon the Minister was asked whether the Cape Education Department encouraged or permitted school facilities and staff to be used for the recruitment of White schoolchildren for so-called multicultural recreational courses. His reply was that the Cape Education Department had no knowledge of such courses. The hon the Minister has probably learnt from the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning not to say what he personally knows or does not know, but to say what the Cape Provincial Administration or the Cape Education Department knows or does not know.

But you know nothing, man! [Interjections.]

The fact is that either the CPA were guilty of an untruth in this regard or else they do not have the foggiest idea of what is taking place in the schools. What we are arguing about now is a specific fact, and I make no apologies for so doing. The fact is not only that pupils of the schools under the Cape Education Department are being recruited to attend these multicultural recreational courses, but also that certain principals are encouraging it. The poor well-meaning children are being subjected to sensitivity-training-oriented integration camps. [Interjections.] They are even being entertained with the Government’s now abandoned peace song which, unless I am mistaken, has already cost us nearly R8 million and which, according to the hon the Minister of Information, will no longer be played.

Sampie is also singing in that song.

What is more, another hon Minister has already boasted in a Government publication about these wonderful multicultural camps, relationship weeks and multiracial sessions for schoolchildren. Yet this hon Minister knows nothing about it.

Order! I regret that the hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise simply to give the hon member for Potgietersrus an opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon member for Sunnyside. The hon the Minister probably does not know of the hon the Minister of National Education’s multiracial youth strategy either, or of the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid’s speech at RAU at the time on a planned strategy for contact among pupils of all races.

The hon the Minister knows nothing about all these things. He pleads ignorance in this regard. Why does he not simply admit that the Government is also trying to harnass White education in order to prepare our youth for the NP’s unattainable ideal of one nation in one undivided South Africa? We are relying upon the professional quality of the teaching corps to oppose successfully the efforts of the Government to use them in this way.

I also want to have it placed on record that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Assembly did not utter one word of protest in regard to the hon the Minister of Education and Development Aid’s remarks to the Sunday Times about the fact that they were now working on so-called “core-syllabuses” in terms of which a large number of matters, inter alia even class discussions on the ANC, were possible. These contain the so-called positive elements of “people’s education.”

The hon the Minister spoke about a curriculum of greater relevance for the experiences, values and aspirations of the Black majority. We want to tell this hon Minister that this sort of thing can bring the White teaching corps and White parents and pupils into revolt and that this can only harm White education.

In conclusion, I want to refer to the crux of a few matters. Since 1986 the hon the Minister has been threatening to introduce school fees. I know that every time I ask him about this, he says that the matter is being investigated.

That is child taxation!

We want to ask him when this child taxation is going to be levied. Is there any clarity about this at this stage, or will the investigation also drag on until after the next election?

According to the Superintendent-General of the Department of Education and Culture the numbers of non-White students and pupils accommodated in White educational institutions in 1987 were as follows: 11 202 students at our universities; 1 465 at our technikons; 9 393 at so-called White private schools; and 862 in White Government schools.

Wow! Is it already that much?

Apparently this has the approval of this hon Minister. The question is how many more thousands of students and pupils on our White campuses are going to have the approval of the hon the Minister.

The next vitally important question is whether this hon Minister agrees with his colleagues that State schools in mixed, grey or open residential areas are gradually going to adopt the same mixed, grey or open character. That is a pertinent question, and I think it is only fair that the hon the Minister should provide us with a reply.

My last question is a very simple one. Does the Department of Education and Culture provide any financial support in respect of the schools that have been established from the funds of the New Era Schools Trust? I am speaking now of Uthongati and that sort of school—those schools where there are equal numbers of White, Coloured, Indian and Black pupils. If the numbers of pupils of these various population groups at such a school are more or less equal, I think it is valid to ask which of the educational divisions or departments funds them. We should like to hear the hon the Minister’s reply to this.

Mr Chairman, when I listen to this hon member and consider the speech he made this afternoon, after having been present here so many times—I saw him here—when the hon the Minister and other Ministers spelt out precisely what the policy of this side of the committee was, I can only tell him that we shall no longer reply to him, because he reminds me of that saying: “I have made up my mind; do not confuse me with the facts”. Consequently, so as not to confuse him any further …

Can you present facts?

Are you the one with the “K” on your T-shirt?

Sir, in this connection I want to refer to two matters only. For example, he referred to the policy on …

I thought you were not going to pay any attention to me, and now you are doing so!

… sport, which has been distributed by the department, and said it was a secret, and so on. It is a simple policy, and I shall come back to it briefly later on.

I should like to associate myself with what the hon the Minister said earlier when he indicated that part of the reality was that we have had to co-exist with other groups in this country. This is a fact that no one in this Committee or in this country will be able to talk, argue or wish away.

Repeat?

The hon member for Brits consequently spent a lot of time accusing the Government of also forcing integration upon schools. He went so far as to drag in the Department of Education and Culture and specifically the Director of Education, and I do not think it behoves him to do so.

Also in an April edition of the Patriot a big issue is now being made of the speech the Director of Education allegedly made. “Op kwalik bedekte pleidooie vir integrasie tussen Blanke en Nieblanke skoolgaande jeug …”, are the words which are being used here.

What hon members are omitting to mention is that certain of their quotations are completely out of context, simply because they want to bring home a point at all costs, a point which is in any case not true at all, implying that real attempts are being made to force integration on schools.

When we take a closer look at the speech, what does it actually contain? I am quoting by way of illustration:

These are the activities to which the hon member referred and which according to him amounted to forced integration in schools—

Further on he says, and this is where the hon member now accuses the Transvaal Director of Education of dragging politics into schools:

The CP hates the truth!

This is the speech that hon member uses, one which was also used in the Patriot in order to sow suspicion. This afternoon I really want to make an earnest appeal to the hon members of the Official Opposition not to drag education into the political arena in this irresponsible way, because education is on a level far, far above these petty party-political points they are now trying to score.

Read that entire speech and then we will talk again!

I was not talking to the hon member for Witbank! [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr Chairman, the Director of Education in the Transvaal, whom we all know, and whom I also know, is a man of integrity who adheres to the Constitution. There is the Constitution, which provides what education entails, and he implements that policy as it is determined in the Constitution. Consequently, I am asking those hon members not to sink so low that they try to sow suspicion even in connection with matters of this nature.

Mr Chairman, I want to devote the rest of my speech to something positive. We often become so entangled in accusations and all kinds of other negative things that it is a real pleasure for me now to speak about something positive.

I am privileged to have in my constituency the largest Afrikaans Teachers’ Training College in the world, the Pretoria Teachers’ Training College. For many years that college has had to manage with a campus that has become completely inadequate for the purposes for which the college was initially planned. The original planning was for 600 students, but this number subsequently grew to 3 000. Now the wonderful day has arrived on which this college is able to move to a new campus. Not all the buildings have been completed yet, but the major section of the new college is already being utilised. It is a modern-day, contemporary college of which all of us can be very proud.

Are you making your maiden speech now?

Oh please, Koos, have you only woken up now? [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, I am proud to be the representative of the constituency in which this college is situated. Over the years this college has produced many leaders who have occupied a proud place in the community. Leaders in the sphere of education, for example Dr Bredenkamp, the present Director, as well as community and cultural leaders and quite a number of sports stars have all been products of this college.

A few names I could mention are those of F W de Klerk, Myrtle Bothma, Wessel Oosthuizen and Jannie van der Merwe. All of them are world-class athletes and are products of this college. [Interjections.]

I should like to reply to the interjections that are now being made. It is also true that Dr John Williams, who is the coach of the champion team that is going to win the Currie Cup again this year, also studied at that … [Interjections.]

Order! I cannot allow the hon member to make such contentious statements. The hon member may nevertheless continue. [Interjections.]

Sir, I am sorry if I offended you too.

With pride this college has trained people over the years, not only to occupy their rightful places in the classroom, but also in the community.

Today, I should like to wish the principal, the staff and the students of this new college complex everything of the best, and in the words of the hon Minister when he said that the theme for this year was “Education in the service of the community”, this is truly an institution which can say with pride that it stands for education in the service of its community.

Mr Chairman, I feel quite jealous this afternoon. Quite recently, I felt quite proud when the hon member for Umhlanga devoted an entire 10-minute speech to me only to find this afternoon that my colleague, the hon member for Pinetown, had 15 minutes devoted to him which makes him five minutes up on me in regard to NP time. I want to stress the fact, however, that this party has never looked for this popularity from the NP.

I want to begin this afternoon by referring to some points hon members of the NP have made in this House and in the Press recently in regard to my attitude towards own affairs education. I want to refer in particular to my colleague from the northern area of Durban, the hon member for Umhlanga, who has seen fit to criticise me in this House as well as in the Press. I would ask the hon member for Umhlatuzana to note the fact that the hon member for Umhlanga also goes to the Press, and that it is not only we who do so. The sad thing about the hon member for Umhlanga is the fact that he and I, as well as the hon member for Pinetown, were all educated at the same school in Durban North, namely Northlands Boys’ High School. It is not quite clear to me why the valuable lessons the hon member for Pinetown and I learnt at that fine school have not had the same influence on the hon member for Umhlanga. He has in fact remained in political darkness while others of us were enlightened by what we learnt.

The ministerial representative for Natal, Dr Hosking, has joined the hon member for Umhlanga in criticising what my hon colleague and I have had to say about education and own affairs education in particular. I hope to refer again to the ministerial representative at a later stage in this debate, but what I do want to say now is that both the hon member for Umhlanga and the ministerial representative, Dr Hosking, have tried to claim that I have been attempting to discredit the Natal Education Department. I want to assure this Committee today that I have the greatest respect for the Natal Education Department and its officials, including, and in particular, its director, Mr Olensdahl, who is present here today. I have so much faith in this department and in its ability to manage education in a way that will allow Natal to retain its ethos and standards that I have become fearful—and this is the important point—of the fact that a mechanism has now been established whereby that ethos and those standards are gradually being undermined by the new own affairs education dispensation which has insisted that education control be centralised in Pretoria.

How predictable!

The hon member for Umhlanga says I am very predictable. It is just because he takes so long to understand that I have to say things so often. [Interjections.]

The Director of Education in Natal, as in the other provinces, used to be responsible to the MEC in charge of education and to the provincial administration. In Natal we certainly had an administration that did all in its power for many years to ensure that education in the province remained a very high priority. Under that system, funds could be transferred from other departments to education, so that Natal always maintained an education department rich in resources and ability and was able to offer an education that was the envy of the other provinces. I would like to stress that point. I was very proud to be part of that department. [Interjections.]

The Natal Education Department developed its own ethos and prescribed an education that encouraged freedom of thought and freedom of expression. That control has changed with the introduction of own affairs education and the centralisation of control. Education in Natal remains good, however, because of the dedication of the teachers and officials and their determination to retain standards in steadily deteriorating circumstances and conditions of service.

The hon member for Pinetown referred to finance and made a tremendously valid point. I want to stress again that I have the greatest respect for the officials and teachers of the Natal Education Department, but centralisation, and therefore the fact that the control of education is in the hands of Pretoria, will not and probably cannot allow education in the provincial education departments to continue with their policies and philosophies. That is not the way this Government works, and we have had forty years of their rule to prove this fact. Their policy can largely be summed up in the words “what is mine is mine, and what is yours is mine as well”. [Interjections.] That is what is happening to education in the provinces. [Interjections.]

On 9 May 1985—almost three years ago—the then Minister of Education and Culture, talking about what he termed the new dispensation for White education, said the following in this House (Hansard: Assembly, vol 3, col 5196-5197):

He went on to say the following:

[Interjections.] That was said nearly three years ago, and since those statements were made, it would appear that the Government has had a serious rethink about its policy with regard to the control of education. In theory, a devolution of power has taken place. We have seen the establishment of regional committees on which parents sit, the extension of the powers of school committees and boards and the introduction of provincial education councils, but in practice power stays very much in the hands of Pretoria, and the unitary system of education which the former Minister mentioned is developing very rapidly indeed.

The hon the Minister referred earlier to the provincial education councils. He spoke of them glowingly, saying that they were cementing the partnership of the department, the parents, the profession and the community at large. However, I have very serious problems with these councils. They were inaugurated in each of the four provinces during the course of August and September last year, and were established in order to assist the provinces in maintaining that “distinctive character of education” which each province has developed. This is not possible, however, in view of the responsibilities and powers allocated to these councils. The State’s partners in education, to whom I referred, are certainly well-represented, but the devolution of policy-making power from the central Government to these councils referred to in 1985 has not taken place, and neither has a devolution of policy-making power to the provincial education departments.

I believe the directors of education have their hands very, very severely tied. Policy remains firstly and firmly in the hands of the hon the Minister of National Education and the hon the Minister of Education and Culture.

The powers handed to the provincial education councils are in many ways inconsequential. These provincial education councils are only advisory in nature and have no legislative powers at all. If Pretoria wishes to ignore the advice of the council, it can do so. Until such time as these councils are given definite legislative powers, there is no way they will be able effectively to assist provincial education departments in retaining their distinctive characters or ethos, if at any stage the Government should decide to pursue a policy of promoting a singly philosophy and ethos in all four provinces. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is indeed a special privilege for me to participate in this discussion this afternoon. For many years my mother had the privilege of serving on the executive committee of Kosovs, under the competent direction of the hon the Minister. There he proved himself to be an extremely able educationist. I am referring to the hon the Minister.

On 14 October 1957 the news that the Russians had launched a Sputnik, the first earth-orbiting satellite, travelled like a shock wave through the world of natural science. The USA then realised that to lag behind in this sphere would lead to permanent subservience.

In South Africa it has also become of cardinal importance, if we want to remain a leading power, for tuition in natural sciences to keep pace with the demands of the day. In an investigation instituted by the HSRC in 1981 it became clearly apparent that the teaching of natural science subjects was anything but promising. They identified three major problems. The first was the shortage of qualified teachers; the second—particularly among pupils—was a lack of interest and the third problem was unsatisfactory syllabuses.

The syllabuses have been considerably improved. In spite of that, and in spite of the fact that South Africa is the largest industrial country in Africa, this is simply not being reflected in the number of natural scientists being produced by the present educational system. Syllabuses are still far too content-orientated, while discovery and problem-solving is the essence of education in the natural sciences.

This report was followed up by another report in 1983, which investigated the shortage of high-level manpower in the natural sciences and mathematics. They found that the availability of qualified teachers in White schools was between 20% and 25%. In junior secondary schools between 50% and 80% of the teachers teaching general science were underqualified. The reason for these shortages was in the first place that the private sector lured potential teachers away to other more remunerative professions.

Secondly teachers are frequently moved to administrative posts and are therefore lost to science tuition. In this connection the principle of differentiated salaries on the basis of supply and demand is controversial, but perhaps the best solution.

This afternoon I should like to make an appeal to the private sector and the mass media, in view of the prevailing lack of interest, to play a greater role and to become more actively involved.

As regards the mass media, radio and television must be harnessed to a greater extent in orientating pupils and the public in respect of scientific programmes. The programmes could also be presented in a more positive way. In the second place it is important for a sound balance to be maintained and for fields of study such as mathematics not to have to suffer at the expense of biologically-orientated programmes.

I want to make an appeal to the private sector to make more and better bursaries available, also to make audio-visual aids available and to provide more funds for the attendance of conferences by pupils and teachers. It would be a good thing to repeat country-wide action programmes to stimulate pupils—hon members will remember the great success we had with the Year of our Green Heritage. Furthermore I want to request that professional officers, particularly from organisations such as the CSIR, be made available to make contributions at schools with a view to helping those schools with modern technology in the form of computers and video machines.

To sum up I want to mention that the hon the Minister pointed out at the Tos Bloch memorial lecture in Bloemfontein that the State and its partners must develop education. I agree whole-heartedly with that. These partners have been defined or fully analysed, as it were, in a very effective way by the Director of the OFS Teachers Association, Prof Neil van Locherenberg, as follows: The letter “S” stands for the “Staat”; “K” for the “Kerk”; “O” for “Ouers”; the second “O” for the “Onderwysers”; and then the most important, the letter “L”, stands for “Leerlinge”. Therefore we have State, Church, Parents, Teachers and Pupils. If we could combine these components into a cohesive unit in which each is able to make his contribution, I believe that the teaching profession would successfully meet the challenge of the times.

Mr Chairman, permit me at the outset to express a word of thanks and appreciation to the hon members on my side of the Committee who have already made speeches.

I should like to start with the hon member for Brentwood who, with characteristic profundity, once more illustrated the fundamentals of education to the Committee this afternoon. I specifically want to thank him, not only for the speech he made here this afternoon, but also for the leading role he has played in educational matters in the Department of Education and Culture. I greatly appreciate that.

Apart from the fact that with a few strokes of the pen—I want to thank him for it—the hon member made a very good job of politically disabusing the hon member for Brits, very clearly pinpointing specific weaknesses in his arguments—I shall come back to that in a moment—I briefly want to indicate that the matter which the hon member actually dealt with in his speech, i.e. the very close partnership between the Church, the home and the school, is of cardinal importance. I thank the hon member for once more illustrating this so graphically. The fact of the matter is that the policy of devolution of authority already implies that we in practice, want to draw these respective partners closer together notwithstanding the hon Rip van Winkel, the hon member for Durban North, who has not yet discerned that fact. That, however, is precisely what is happening. I want to thank the hon member also for having clearly focussed on that aspect.

I really do want to express my thanks to the hon member for Umhlatuzana who, as a Natalian, not only dealt very deftly with the hon member for Pinetown’s onslaught, but also gave facts in support of his argument. I thought to myself that I would have to tackle the hon member for Pinetown on each of the facts, but now I doubt whether I need do so, because I think the hon member for Umhlatuzana has so deftly succeeded in unmasking the hon member for Pinetown. I want to thank the hon member for also very clearly, with a view strokes of the pen, having highlighted the PFP’s education policy, and particularly the consequences of that policy too. My sincere thanks to him for that as well. [Interjections.]

I want to thank the hon member for Gezina. He is an hon member who has been participating in these debates for many years now. [Interjections.] The hon member chiefly focussed his attention on briefly reacting to the hon member for Brits. I want to agree with the hon member for Gezina—I shall come to that at a later stage—that it was one of the most scandalous attacks, by a politician of any of these parties, on an education department and, by implication, its teachers. The hon member will never be able to get away from that. [Interjections.] I shall be coming back to it.

It is scandalous, but it is true!

I also want to thank the hon member for having pointed out that in guiding the child to maturity, own education focussed on him as a complete human being. I think that is one of the most important matters the hon member touched upon, and apart from the fact that he also clearly highlighted the aspect of community involvement, I thank him sincerely for that too.

The hon member for Gezina, of course, emphasised an extremely important matter, i.e. the higher utilisation frequency of already existing facilities at our schools. It is, in fact, true that our schools are well-equipped with sports facilities, at times so well-equipped that if we were to ascertain the extent to which rugby fields, athletic tracks or tennis courts were actually used, we would perhaps discover that we should make greater use of existing facilities, and not only that, but that the community as such could perhaps also make greater use of already existing facilities at schools. In the process the community could perhaps assume responsibility for the maintenance of such facilities. There is definitely room for the further investigation of this matter, and I thank the hon member for having focussed on it.

I thank the hon member for Sunnyside for having placed the speech of the Transvaal Director of Education in perspective.

I want to tell the hon member for Brits that it is no use his having started his speech in a very courteous and civilised fashion, because at the end I had to ask myself if it was the same person who had started speaking with such civility and had then resorted to certain formulations which, in my opinion, did not tie in with the way in which he had begun his speech. [Interjections.]

Order! No, hon members are making too many comments. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Then to proceed to quote the Director of Education’s speech so completely out of context, is beyond me. [Interjections.] I thank the hon member for Sunnyside for having pointed that out. I also want to thank him for having again emphasised the own affairs aspect of education. I want to congratulate him on the Pretoria College of Education’s new campus. As far as that college is concerned, I want …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: May the hon member for Jeppe sit there reading a newspaper?

Order! Was the hon member for Jeppe reading the newspaper?

No, Sir, I was looking at the Patriot. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon the Minister may proceed.

I want to wish that college everything of the best. I am convinced that as it is, that college can pride itself on those who have, in the past, been associated with it, and I wish that college everything of the best for the future.

I now want to come to the hon member for Brits and perhaps just refer, in passing, to the hon member for Potgietersrus. I want to thank the hon member for Brits very sincerely for having written a note in which he apologized for not being present here tomorrow. He must excuse me, however, for saying that to my mind his speech was a slightly hit-and-run affair.

Oh, what nonsense!

Immediately after that the second CP speaker, the hon member for Potgietersrus, took the floor. At the end of his speech he dropped a hint about not being here tomorrow, but in the meantime …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon the Minister entitled to state a blatant untruth? At the very beginning of my speech I apologized for the fact that I could not be here tomorrow.

Order! It is not clear to me what the blatant untruth is supposed to be. The hon the Minister may proceed.

The fact of the matter is that the hon member will not be here tomorrow. [Interjections.]

Order! There are altogether too many unnecessary comments being made on both sides of the Committee. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Today, as he has done in the past, the hon member for Potgietersrus took the liberty of asking a whole series of questions. He asked about 20 questions, but has so little interest in the answers to those questions that in regard to the discussion of this very important Vote on education and culture he could not arrange matters so as to be present here. [Interjections.] No, there is nothing nasty about that, but it is high time we on this side of the Committee highlighted the facts. [Interjections.] Hon members on the other side of the Committee—I am speaking to the hon member for Brits—take the liberty of launching negative attacks on people on an extremely personal level. The hon member for Potgietersrus—he is free to consult his own Hansard—again took the liberty of making intensely personal and humiliating attacks on certain people. In the past I simply took no notice of that and allowed the hon member to carry on.

That is not true.

Today I will, in fact, be replying to a few things the hon member for Potgietersrus said. What the hon member for Potgietersrus did today is, to a large extent, in line with the speech he made in the Committee on a previous occasion when he spoke about the hon the Minister of National Education during a discussion of the Vote. At the time the hon member also complained about the formula.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

No, at a later stage I shall reply to all that hon member’s questions, but he must first give me a chance. [Interjections.]

Order!

The hon member for Potgietersrus again mentioned the formula this afternoon. Again he drew specifical conclusions about the pupil-teacher ratio and pupil density. Once again he tried to indicate that we were hiding certain things. Today I want to reply to the hon member on that score. In his previous speech, and today too, the hon member evidenced a political style of debate—or should I say a lack of it?—which really makes it difficult, at times, for one to be courteous to that hon member. On 23 March of this year the hon member said, amongst other things:

That is what the hon member said.

So why are you only replying to him now?

I am going to reply to him now. Am I not entitled to reply to the hon member when it suits me to do so. When this statement was made, the hon the Minister of National Education’s Vote was under discussion.

Are you only going to reply next year to what he said today?

I am going to reply to him now, but I just want to deal with this point first. The hon member went on to say:

The hon member also said:

What, however, are the facts? The fact of the matter is that the percentage increase in expenditure on White own affairs is lower than that in regard to other groups. That is true. [Interjections.] The population growth amongst Whites has declined, however, something the hon member is surely aware of.

The hon member surely knows that the number of pupils in our schools is decreasing, and that of necessity fewer pupils need less money. Surely that is clear. The hon member knows that as well as we do, but he will not say it. He does not bring this fundamental fact to the attention of members of the public. Is his silence the result of the fact that this does not accord with his simplistic views and those of his own party?

I want to come back to the percentage increase he spoke of. A percentage is a ratio, and to obtain the real amount, it must be multiplied by a base amount. Surely it is clear that one out of ten is 10%, but 10 out 10 is not 10% but 100%. In other words, one out of ten is 10%, but one out of a 100 is 1%. The hon member does not say that. He knows that in absolute terms and in per capita terms the base amount for the Whites is higher than that of the other groups. Why does the hon member not say that? The increase in expenditure, expressed in absolute terms per capita, is higher for the Whites than it was the previous year. The hon member, however, will not say that.

The hon member’s second contention was that “in plain terms this means that the Government accepts that there is going to be a lowering of standards as well as some disruption.” [Interjections.] He says that against the background of an improvement in the achievements of pupils, as I said this afternoon in my introductory speech. He knows that not only have the numbers of matriculants increased, but that their achievements have too. Yet in this House the hon member comes along with the accusation that there is a lowering of standards. Those are the people who profess, in public, to be championing the cause of teachers.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

No, I am not answering any questions now. The hon member’s third allegation dealt with the secret funding formula which the Government did not want to reveal. What are the relevant facts? The formula has not yet been revealed, because it has not yet been fully tested. That is nothing new.

[Inaudible.]

The hon member must just keep quiet now and listen. We adopted the same procedure in regard to the formula we used for universities, and when eventually it had been scientifically tested to everyone’s satisfaction, we came to light with it. Hon members must just wait, because as was indicated by my colleague, the hon the Minister of National Education, the formula will be made public at a specific time. It is possible, of course, that during this trial period adjustments will be made, and that after all the adjustments have been made, we can come to light with it. This mysterious formula, however, has been made the subject of a further fabrication, and that is what I have against the hon member. According to him the teacher-pupil ratio and the average size of classrooms are going to decrease by 50%. I want to know from the hon member where he gets that figure. What formula, what scientific basis, did he have for arriving at that figure? What are the facts?

It is a secret formula.

The hon member knows as well as I do that he is engaged in speculation.

That is not true.

He knows as well as I do that on the basis of his party’s formula he is simply setting up an Aunt Sally so that he can knock it down again. [Interjections.] I shall also be relating that to the statements by the hon member for Brits.

The hon member for Potgietersrus also said that financially universities and technikons found themselves in dire straits. I want to tell the hon member that financially universities and technikons are having a difficult time of it. There is no doubt about that. I also concede that revenue is, in fact, considerably lower than what we regard as being the ideal. In the prevailing poor economic conditions, from 1987 to 1988, the tertiary sector had a 9% increase in subsidies.

This compares favourably with other sectors in which, as a result of the protracted economic slump, there was not the finance available to give what we would have liked to have given. Curbs on expenditure are not always negative. Today I want to thank the CUP—the universities themselves proceeded with a rationalisation programme, they understand this, and I want to express the hope that the time will again come when we shall be able to meet more of their needs than we can in their present difficult financial circumstances.

I now want to discuss the hon member for Brits’s speech in slightly more detail. He began with party politics, blaming this side of the House for introducing party politics into schools. He then asked what the Government was doing about this. He said that the Government was engaged in a sports and cultural policy which was nothing if not tantamount to introducing politics into schools. Let me now clarify the matter for the hon member for Brits. If that hon member thinks that education, specifically own education, only goes so far that one must primarily educate children on the basis of one’s own traditions and cultural experience, and that all one then needs to do is to teach them that 2 × 2 = 4—imparting the usual knowledge and leaving it at that—then I want to tell the hon member that his education policy is a very parochial one. If that is the CP’s educational policy, heaven help us if it were ever to succeed in practice, because the fact of the matter is that children also have to be prepared for mature adult life after they have passed matric. Those children must be prepared so that they can ultimately function in a multi-cultural society, and it is a figment of one’s imagination to think that that is not so. Our cultural and sports policy recognises this fact.

There is also a second aspect I want to put to the hon member. I want to ask him whether he acknowledges the principle of the devolution of authority. No, another hon member is now quickly telling him not to reply! [Interjections.] That hon member cannot play the game on both sides, because if he acknowledges the principle of the devolution of authority, he must concede that it is a good thing to have it placed in the hands of a management board, because the members of the management board are the ones representing the parents. This cultural and sports policy is based on the principle that the management boards, as the representatives of the parents, have the right to decide …

The old UP policy!

… whether they want to invite a specific team to participate or whether they want to play against a specific team. The same applies at the cultural level, provided a school activity is involved, and I do not have the time now to discuss the sports and cultural policy outside the school context.

By way of an interjection the hon member said that this was old UP policy. I accept the fact that the hon member thereby wishes to indicate to us this afternoon that he is not in favour of the devolution of authority.

Not when it comes to important matters of policy in education!

No, Sir, let me tackle the hon member on that point. He says that as far as policy matters are concerned, this Government itself should decide. I now want to put the following question to him: If this Government were to take a specific decision, would the hon member be prepared to go public and tell all the parents, CP parents too, that this was the Government’s decision and that it was correct because it was policy? [Interjections.] That, after all, is what the hon member was saying! [Interjections.]

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No 19.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr Chairman, in the debate on his Vote yesterday, the hon the Minister of Education and Culture again committed himself to the adaptation of his department’s policy to leave sufficient room for the educational needs of the Coloured community. The fact that the hon the Minister invited the teaching community to join the fight for the rights of our children and teachers is proof of the seriousness with which the hon the Minister tackles his responsibilities as a Minister. This is characteristic of a person whose intentions are sincere. It does not signify a witch-hunt on our children and teachers. On the contrary, we would rather co-operate with the teaching corps so that education in general is served in the best possible way. We are striving for the same goals although our approach may differ. It is such a pity that some of the educationists seem to have a kind of obsession about trying to run down the Department of Education and Culture and our politicians as soon as differences arise. We do need each other, however. Unfortunately the Department of Education and Culture cannot allow certain radical elements to disrupt our school programmes. As representatives of our people we cannot allow our children to be sacrificed as cannon fodder. We, the MPs, are the eyes and ears of our hon Minister.

I want to discuss several matters briefly. My experience is that many school committees, if not the majority, really do not know what their function is. In most cases they are manipulated and kept in the dark by certain school principals. Many principals exploit this situation tremendously. I want to request the hon the Minister to ensure that an information brochure about the position and functions of school committees is drawn up and supplied to every member of the school committees.

I rewrote my speech after receiving a letter from my constituency this morning. Unfortunately I do not have enough time to read the letter to the members, but I shall send a copy to the hon Minister. With reference to the letter it seems there are still cases in which school teachers are contravening the stipulations of regulation S.28 concerning the administration of corporal punishment to pupils. I want to make an earnest appeal to the Department of Education and Culture to give urgent attention to the stipulations of the regulations concerning the … [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must please lower their voices and show the Chair some respect. The hon member may proceed.

I want to repeat what I said. I want to make an earnest appeal to the Department of Education and Culture to give urgent attention to the stipulations in the regulations concerning the administration of corporal punishment. Firmer action against offenders should be considered.

Last year I spoke about irregularities at a certain school in my electoral division and I shall not repeat that today. I do want to refer hon members to the Hansard of Friday, 31 July 1987, columns 1752-1754, however. The letter I received this morning mentioned certain irregularities at the same school. I want to request the hon Minister to give serious attention to these irregularities. It seems to me that the Department of Education and Culture has its own policy which does not correspond with the political policy of the Ministers’ Council.

Mr Chairman, I am making use of this opportunity to participate in a debate that concerns the education and well-being of our youth. I must admit that I am very grateful that our teachers are very much in control of the schools in the Bosmont constituency.

Education in our community takes priority, and, as the hon member for Mamre said, we must create a healthy climate for today’s youth. I realise that it is in a time of crisis such as we are experiencing now that we have to participate to eradicate the radicals that are corrupting our youth at all educational institutions.

Sir, I am proud to be the representative for as well as a resident of the Bosmont area and stress the fact that the majority of the parents there foster and promote a healthy attitude in respect of our educational facilities. Our constituents do not believe in irrational boycotts, but in the progress and development of education.

As I have indicated in the past, the pupils of Riverlea were told that they were cowards for not participating in the boycotts. That, however, is an indication of the hunger for education in my area. There are three primary schools and one secondary school in the area I represent, and the needs are enormous. As the hon the Minister has stated, our schools require upgrading. The recent spate of burglaries at these schools has motivated me to request security at these schools. Moreover, more classrooms are essential to accommodate the high number of pupils of Riverlea. All the schools of Riverlea have grounds available for the extension of the existing buildings and the construction of sports fields, which we do not have.

It is essential that in the laying out of schools, provision be made for the incorporation of sports facilities such as race tracks and netball and tennis courts. We, the so-called Coloured people, have a talent for sport, but because of a scarcity of sports facilities, achievements in sport elude us.

We had an incident in which a pupil at one of our schools died on the school premises as a result of a javelin that was thrown during a sports practice. The underlying reason for this was that the field was inappropriate.

The unemployment rate in Riverlea Extension 1 stands at approximately 85%, and these very people have to donate funds so that the school can purchase sports equipment. These people also contribute to the payment of the telephone bills for the schools in the area. I appreciate the fact that our schools are easing the unemployment situation in that local residents are being employed as cleaners and gardeners at the schools. I also see the need for a social worker to be appointed on a permanent basis at each school. He or she could assist when it comes to problems like absenteeism, dropping out, pregnancies, and the abuse of drugs and alcohol.

In concluding, I want to say that I also see the need for the school that is envisaged for the Riverlea Extension 2 area to be constructed as soon as possible to accommodate the pupils who are travelling by bus from the area every day.

Previously the Coloured population in our area used to attend three of our oldest schools. The one was City and Suburban, another one was Newtown, and the other was Crowser Street School. This Department of Education and Culture could have claimed it as a feather in their cap today if they had managed to retain Crowser Street School, because as I see it, this would have been the first non-racial school situated centrally to Johannesburg. The people resident in Hillbrow, Mayfair and all the other areas situated centrally to Johannesburg could have had their children accommodated at this school, instead of having their children transported to the various Coloured areas. The retention of that school could really have been a feather in the department’s cap.

The question now is this: Why was this school closed? After all, there is a need for a school like that one. I understand it was an old school, but it could have been renovated. I know that children who used to attend this school were transferred to Rabie Ridge School. Although I accept that they had to be accommodated in their own area of Rabie Ridge, I maintain that this school could have been used by these very youngsters, because youngsters from surrounding areas like Mayfair and other surrounding areas could have attended this school. Moreover, as I have already said, the retention of that school could have been a feather in the department’s cap.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the hon the Minister of Education and Culture for the very fine speech he delivered in this Chamber yesterday.

True education is the most important commodity one can receive in life. Lack of true knowledge is false education. It can destroy individuals, as well as nations. J F Kennedy, a former US president, once said:

That, Sir, was a simple, but profound observation. Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union from 1924 to 1953, said:

The existence of a nation hinges on education. What is the reality to be found in our schools today? We are left with the distinct impression that high schools lack a clear and vital mission. Our high schools often look more like crisis centres than educational institutions. Some are diseased and wrecked with social pathology, pregnant teenage girls, drug use and dope peddling on school grounds, boycotts and gangsterism. At university level we find confusion over educational goals, a divided faculty loyalty, isolation of social and academic areas, absence of desire to learn or teach, a gap between the institution and the world at large, disjointed curricula and disagreement. How do we govern these institutions, Sir?

When we think of an educational system, we must include the society beyond the classroom. The home must rank as the primary source of education. Today’s parents, however, are simply dumping their problems onto our schools. The parents expect the schools to teach their children everything there is to know. We must understand that the school cannot be the sole educating instrument of society, not even its major one. George Santayana, the Spanish born American philosopher, put it well when he said, and I quote:

Part of the reason that the formal school system is failing, is that the family system is failing. Beyond the home there is the society at large: the entertainment media, religious leadership, as well as the political and business community. They all have a great effect on our overall education. If our formal education system is not teaching students what they need, it is particularly the fault of all those other contributors to education.

Albert Einstein, who is acknowledged to have had one of the greatest scientific minds, once said:

Sir William Bennet, US Secretary of Education, in a speech delivered at the National Press Club in Washington, DC, on 17 March 1985, said on the subject of education beyond the classroom:

Not all teachers are parents, but all parents are teachers, the indispensable teachers. And as teachers, parents always have had the first and largest responsibility for educating their children …

And in some cases parents discover that their children are unlearning in school the lessons they have learned at home.

The aim of all education, whether at home or at work, at play or in the school, ought to be a teaching of what we call values and not the mere funneling of information into empty minds. Sir John Ruskin, a British writer, once said, and I quote:

One should be learning that which is truly valuable. Of course there is the need for technical training that teaches us how to earn a living, but first and more basic is an education for living. It gives meaning and direction to all we do, including not only what, but also how and why we might learn any technical information.

True education demands more than just possessing information. It requires a continuous change of behaviour in a wholesome direction. True education involves learning, and becoming a different sort of person. Sir, we need a system of education with a single, true value system which applies to all the people in this country, irrespective of colour, race or creed—all the time and under all circumstances.

I want to conclude by quoting the British biologist, Thomas Hendry Huxley, who said long ago:

Samuel Johnson said:

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Mamre said yesterday that I was conducting politics when I participated in the debate. He knows very well that that is devoid of all truth. I explained why it was an untrue statement and shall enlarge on it now. We shall not voice all the criticism which should actually be expressed in this debate, seeing that the present hon Minister of Education and Culture has been holding down that post since very recently.

That is a change of tune!

I am not changing my tune, Sir. Hon members must not make me hot under the collar again. [Interjections.]

I put questions, the replies to which will be of positive interest to education and to teaching in particular. It is the hon member for Mamre who conducted petty politics. He was the last person from whom I expected this and I am ashamed of it. I said we should not turn education into politicking. Listen to what he said, Sir:

He said there were enough other matters to make the most of. We do not want a condition of euphoria to exist in the community or at schools. The fact is that this had already happened when we started the debate yesterday.

I want to refresh the hon member’s memory in this regard. Before the institution of the tricameral system, when the normal course of activities at the University of the Western Cape and certain training colleges was disrupted, and UWC closed, what happened? The LP travelled throughout the country and addressed public meetings—in solidarity with students and parents. The students especially were praised and encouraged to continue their protest. The LP therefore paved the way and created the atmosphere for what happened today. Nevertheless, after entering the tricameral system, they threatened to close UWC in August 1986 when the students acted in the same way. [Interjections.] What is more, at that time the students requested that the rector be dismissed and replaced by a Black. The LP agreed and stuck tenaciously to their guns in the CRC that that had to be done. [Interjections.]

What does the LP say today?

[Interjections.] Now there is a change in the approach to existing problems, however. [Interjections.] The question is why there is a change. [Interjections.] It is merely because there was a shift of emphasis as regards responsibility; it now lies elsewhere. The hon member for Mamre must tell me now who was conducting politics and who was not. He added that discipline had to be maintained at schools. I did not say that discipline was not to be maintained. I agree with him wholeheartedly with regard to the maintenance of discipline. What I mean is that discipline must not be maintained at schools with the assistance of the Police and the Defence Force. [Interjections.] The facts and realities which have to be addressed are that the school situation has to be normalised and that a new, acceptable educational programme has to be introduced. [Interjections.] Then we must also not lose sight of the golden rule in this regard, namely “Government by the people, of the people, for the people”. [Interjections.]

I also want to say something about some of the things the hon member for Berg River expressed in his argument yesterday, especially as regards the CPTA and its chairman. [Interjections.] As politicians we should guard against throwing out the baby with the bath-water because we may perhaps act too sensitively in the process. It would be preferable to enter into in-depth dialogue round the table. It is disturbing that the hon member for Berg River said that Mr Sonn was afraid that the LP would prove it to be irrelevant, hence his increasingly radical statements. [Interjections.] If it is irrelevant, why is it the leader of the vast majority of the teaching corps? Why do more than 75% of teachers in the service of the Department of Education of the House of Representatives belong to that teachers’ body? [Interjections.] If it is irrelevant, hon members of the LP must do what Mangosuthu Buthelezi did. He formed his own trade union after he had said that the other was irrelevant. If the CPTA and Utasa are totally irrelevant, then create another teachers’ body. [Interjections.] Then we shall find ourselves in the era of Tepa and the other teachers’ body, TLSA, again. [Interjections.] If the hon member says that Mr Sonn makes radical statements, how many radical statements have we not heard in this House already? I have no fault to find with this. Nevertheless one’s hair stands on end when the hon member for Berg River says that Mr Sonn should be careful because he will get hurt. He does not spell out how he is going to get hurt, however. [Interjections.] He puts it in such a way that it can actually mean anything. [Interjections.] What I also found reprehensible in his speech was the fact that he said that the man had been appointed to a post for which he was not suitable. They had better do something about him if that is the case, if he is said to be unsuitable for the post. [Interjections.]

I am supposed to accept that we are out to do the best for education, but now we are left with somebody who is unqualified. [Interjections.] No matter who appointed him, the fact is that the LP is holding the whip hand now and has to put right what is wrong. When I listen to that, it sounds as if it has become a question of fighting on until one drops. I do not believe this should be the approach as regards education, in which we have a gigantic backlog to make up—as in housing. It will be an evil day if the crisis in education is settled in such a manner.

I want to refer to what the hon member for Southern Cape said. He has my deepest sympathy regarding the computer episode. The hon member for Southern Cape conveniently omitted to mention the Auditor-General’s report on the accounts of the House of Representatives. According to this, during his period of office as the Minister, two TOAM computers were installed free of charge by agreement at two primary schools on an experimental basis. The Auditor-General says in the report that he is having the purchase of second-hand computers by Mr Ebrahim’s department at more than R400 000 investigated. The question here is the extraordinary financial implications of the purchase of second-hand systems. I should like that hon member to tell me—he must please explain—what happened there. He must tell us whether orders have been given to stop the Auditor-General’s investigation or whether it is still continuing.

I now return to the hon the Minister’s address. The hon the Minister asked us not to make the Department of Education and Culture the scapegoat and punchbag for whatever went wrong at schools. The hon member for Riversdal supported him in this. He quoted various examiners’ reports and asked whether this or that and this one or that one were guilty. [Interjections.] As I said a short while ago, we shall not tear the hon the Minister to pieces about this at this stage, but I want to tell the hon the Minister and hon members on that side that the hon the Minister himself shouldered the responsibility and he has to give an account of his stewardship. Unfortunately he cannot evade his responsibility by asking us not to direct criticism at the department. He is in control of a Government department and as the political head of education and culture and as the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council he has to accept responsibility at all times for events in his department and for what is under his control. I cannot scrutinise the action of the officials in this House, but I can certainly do so in the case of the hon the Minister. Ultimately it remains the hon the Minister’s baby—whether it is a good baby or not.

I want to ask the hon the Minister a question again about what he said yesterday on the freezing of posts in order to apply financial discipline. The question is how one solves the problem and whether this has created further problems.

I know that at this stage relations are not good between the hon the Minister and his party and the Cape Professional Teachers’ Association. As regards what the teachers’ union is saying about the freezing of posts, I now want to ask the hon the Minister whether what is contained in this is true or not and how it affects education. This is a Press report which was issued on 28 January 1988. It reads as follows:

I have read the letter so that the hon the Minister can spell out the situation to us. If the hon the Minister is right, I shall agree with the hon member for Berg River that we shall have to address Mr Sonn if he is not broadcasting the truth as regards education. We cannot afford to let such a prickly situation continue.

I also put questions yesterday on the matter of the freezing of posts and the admission of students to colleges. Why are there qualified teachers hanging about the streets? I said yesterday it seemed to me there were too many children per teacher in our schools and, if that situation were rectified, the teaching corps could be better utilised. The hon the Minister dealt with the current situation at schools but did not utter a word about the action of the Police and the Defence Force. I should like to hear what his opinion is in this regard.

He chose to say the following instead:

I should like to remind the hon the Minister of what I said to the hon member for Mamre earlier about LP action in this regard. I quote what the hon the Minister said:

Instead of attacking the hon the Minister, I want to ask him why that measure was made applicable to students, because it does not emerge clearly from his speech. One would like to know what the ultimate consequences would be in education and in respect of students in general if this measure were applied strictly. I want to state it very clearly that the UDP does not believe in that system. We believe that adequate classroom accommodation should be provided and that a teacher should not be saddled with more than 20 children. We now have to create technical facilities as it were—I am using this in the broadest sense—and train teachers as if they are on an assembly line!

There will have to be negotiation about funds in the Cabinet Committee on Priorities. If need be, the Government will have to borrow the money and, if it cannot do that, it will have to institute a bonus bond system so that the problem can be solved. Income from such bonus bonds must be applied for upliftment and upgrading of education inter alia under a special department. Failing this, the Government must find the money for this purpose. The Government and Ministers have been telling us continuously for 30 years, if not longer, that there is no money. There is no money, but there is enough to waste on other things! We cannot bumble on like this. Education, especially as regards our people, holds the key to all doors.

The hon the Minister said laudably in his speech, “My department is no longer prepared to play a spectator role amidst threats of boycotts and similar protests.” Except for saying that his door was open to parents, there was no mention of how the hon the Minister was no longer going to play the role of a spectator in this regard.

The UDP believes in an intensified action programme. I want to suggest that direct negotiation be conducted with school principals on where problem areas lie. It is not good enough merely to send the inspector to a school principal to report. The matter should receive attention directly from the hon the Minister’s office.

In addition, negotiations should be initiated with organised education, no matter how unacceptable this may appear. There must be discussions with the parents themselves, because they have to fulfil an important role regarding the education of their children. There must be discussions with regional boards and school committees. I can refer in this regard to what the hon member for Suurbraak said, namely that school principals manipulated school committees because they did not know what their function was. I do not believe a circular in this connection will ever make them realise what their functions are.

It would be preferable to ensure that the entire school committee system was changed in its total structuring and that they were assigned new duties so that they could be linked more closely to all school activities. Perhaps people will find this strange. If need be, discussions must also be held with student councils, if they still exist, or with students themselves. We said yesterday that corporal punishment was not the answer and people said that Police action was not the solution either. That discussion must result in a priority list as regards solving the problem. Then these problems must be solved systematically or the solutions implemented so that the situation does not repeat itself year after year.

It is said inter alia that there are other methods to discipline children. I want to tell hon members frankly that the UDP does not believe in compulsory military training and still less does the UDP believe in the institution of rehabilitation centres to curb these children. I am saying this because there have been reports before the President’s Council which read as follows:

This is recommendation No 7 of the President’s Council. Recommendation No 13 of the President’s Council reads as follows:

Sir, we do not advocate that.

Peter Marais approved that.

At that time he was not a member of my party.

*The hon member for Southern Free State shot “people’s education” down as if it were a creation of the devil. The hon member should be careful about this—it was the Afrikaner’s salvation. The hon member is not here at present but he can read in Hansard what I am going to recommend. I do not have time to quote from a book at the moment, but I recommend that the hon member read the following books: Christelike en Nasionale Onderwys by Dr E Greyling; Christelike Nasionale Onderwys by H E Strauss; The Catholic Views on Christian-National Education-, the booklet of the Instituut vir Christelike Nasionale Onderwys in this regard; Christelik-nasionaal Outentieke Ideologiese en Gesekulariseerde Nasionalisme by Prof M Elaine Botha; and Randall van den Heever’s Alternative Education. [Interjections.] I want to tell the hon member that he would do better to listen to what the hon the Minister said in this regard, and then I shall listen to him. I shall now quote from what the hon the Minister said:

I want to suggest in this regard, and I would be pleased if the hon the Minister of Education and Culture would reply to me on this, that a comprehensive, scientific inquiry be ordered into “people’s education” or “alternative education” and that findings be reported to this House so that hon members can consider such a report.

Mr Chairman, if the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition has read all the books to which he referred here, my advice to the hon member for Southern Free State is that he should definitely not read them. If the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition could not find anything good in those books, or if those books teach one what he told us about here, one should rather not read them.

During the no-confidence debate the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition said that the hon the Leader of the LP wanted to arrogate all the power to himself and that this was why he had taken over the post of Minister of Education and Culture. However, who in this House is better equipped and more able to handle that post than the hon the Leader of the LP? I should like the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition to tell me this. I now understand why the speeches of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition have become worse and worse. He would seem to be the leader of some or other revamped party, that he will never restore to health and get going again. [Interjections.]

I want the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition to read the speech of the hon member for Berg River, so that he can apologise to that hon member tomorrow. The hon member for Berg River referred to Mr Sonn and said he was not qualified for the post, but that it was a political appointment. He actually paved the way for political appointments, but the hon member added that Mr Sonn had performed his task well and that he was doing good work. The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition definitely owes the hon member for Berg River an apology. [Interjections.]

From the speech made by the hon the Minister of Education and Culture in this House yesterday, it is clear that we will have to prepare our pupils for a career. A pupil must be assisted at secondary level, depending on his talents, abilities and interests, to enter the technical professions. At the moment there is still too large a gap between our secondary courses and a professional career. [Interjections.]

Order!

After they have matriculated many of our young men and women find themselves with a certificate which is virtually useless. If they do not want to or cannot attend a technikon or university, they find that the doors of businesses and industries are closed to them. A technical junior or senior certificate with an optional trade test will open far more doors for our children.

I now want to refer to the Transvaal where we have some of the largest industries in the country. Here I am thinking of the mining companies, of Sasol, Armscor, Atlas etc, all industrial giants that excel in the technological sphere and that have to be provided with young men and women with technical training who can take their rightful place in the business world.

The De Lange Commission made the following recommendation in 1981:

In consequence of what the hon the Minister of Education and Culture said yesterday in his speech, it is clear that there is a shift in emphasis. Our department’s attitude now is to train our children in technical fields rather than academic fields. In view of what I have just said, we should have had at least four technical schools or colleges for our people in the Transvaal in order to meet the demand for technically trained staff—not only with a view to the labour market, but also with a view to filling top echelons in the industrial world.

I should like to put in a word for the East Rand. We must give serious consideration to building a technical school or college there. There is enough room to do this in my constituency—in Nigel and in Brakpan.

In my discussions with Sasol’s top management, they regularly appealed to us to provide people who could receive in-service training. However, our schools simply do not supply enough children who have sufficient knowledge on technical subjects. For that reason we must see to it that more technical subjects are taught at high schools. This matter must be put right, so that the change-over from a more academic to a more technical field can take place more quickly in our schools.

Because we are living in a world in which progress is made every day in the field of technology, the child must be exposed to the wonderful world of technology at an early age. That is why it is essential for us to promote computer-supported education at school level. Today I should like to express my thanks to the top echelons of management of Samcor, Pretoria, as well as to the headmaster of the Stoneridge Primary School, Mr Paul Jacobs. In 1985, while I was still the chairman of the school board of the Stoneridge Primary School, Eden Park, Mr Paul Jacobs and I, in co-operation with Samcor’s management, saw to it that Stoneridge got its own computer system. We did this without financial assistance from the department.

I should like to give hon members the results of one of the problem subjects, namely mathematics: The pass rate of pupils in Std 3 was 59%, 71 % and 82% in 1985, 1986 and 1987, respectively. With regard to Std 4 pupils the pass rate in mathematics in the same years was 57%, 70% and 79% respectively, whereas in the case of Std 5 pupils the pass rate was 58%, 72% and 82% respectively. If these are not good results, Sir, I do not know what is and they are thanks to computer-supported education.

Here we are considering the involvement of the private sector in our children’s lives at school level. I am referring specifically to the involvement of Samcor and of the headmaster—in this case Mr Paul Jacobs. We see that we cannot make progress if everyone does not play his part. The hon member for Mamre put this so well yesterday. He said we are a wheel, and the wheel cannot turn quickly or effectively if one of its spokes is missing.

In 1986 Stoneridge got six of these computer units. They cost R33 000. Samcor paid for this. In 1987 we got five units, which cost R25 000. At the end of this year we are going to get a further five units, and another five at the end of 1989.

On average there are 40 children per class. In 1986 we started with eight children per computer. Now we have four children per computer and by 1990 we will have two children per computer, which is perhaps not ideal, but which is praiseworthy progress. Thanks and praise must be expressed for contributions from the private sector and teachers like Paul Jacobs.

I also want to mention that we do not use the TOAM system; we use the BBC system. The TOAM system was specifically developed for education, and after Mr Jacobs and I had looked at all the other systems, we agreed that the TOAM system was one of the best systems for our school. However, the efficiency of the computer depends on the efficiency of the teacher. The teacher will have to receive training in computer technique. For that reason I want to ask the hon the Minister of Education and Culture what provision has been made in this regard. Are the teachers going to be trained by the people who provide us with these systems or is the department itself going to undertake the training.

I also want to mention a meeting which I attended in Nigel. In my opinion it was a historic meeting. It was a parents’ meeting which was held on 14 March 1988. The parents, teachers and representatives of the Department of Manpower attended that meeting. Matters raised which have to receive the attention of parents, MPs and schools included a lack of information at school level. There is a lack of information regarding career-orientated education. Secondly subject choices are limited, and it would seem that companies are interested mainly in mathematics and science as subjects. While I am talking about mathematics and science, I want to refer again to the 1986 final examination for the Senior Certificate. A mere 7% of the pupils passed mathematics on the higher grade, and in the standard grade the pass rate was only 15,5%. The pass rate for physics and chemistry on the higher grade was only 3,9% and on the standard grade 9,7%. One can therefore see how alarming the situation is.

In conclusion I want to mention the other matters which were raised at that meeting. The parent and child must have self-knowledge. The weak points of a child must be identified, and must receive attention. The child, and frequently the parent too, must also be taught human dignity. He must have respect for himself. There must be a sense of responsibility in both parent and child. Lastly there must be confidence in the school, the parents and the teachers.

Then there is also the matter of authority. It was said time and again at the meeting: “Spare the rod and spoil the child.” I am happy to say that there are still some schools where agreement has been reached with the parent on corporal punishment and where some teachers still use corporal punishment. This is a good thing, because there was corporal punishment in our time and today’s children should have it too. [Interjections.] In conclusion I want to say that one of the headmasters in my constituency—he has now retired—even used to hit the teachers if they arrived late. [Interjections.] That is the truth and it worked. One must look into this. What should come first: Discipline or the child’s recreation?

Mr Chairman, I am completely confused. The hon member who has just spoken, spoke in favour of keeping the cane in the classroom, yet yesterday the hon member for Grassy Park asked so nicely for the cane to be abolished. I shall leave it to those two hon members to sort out their difference of opinion so that they can agree next time.

†I want to address the hon the Minister today in particular about the request he made in his speech when he said:

I want to address the hon the Minister on that particular point; not with the intention of throwing bricks, but with the intention of using those bricks to build something for the future. Let me take this Committee back to 21 March 1985 when blood flowed in the streets of Uitenhage and we as a group demanded the resignation of the then Minister of Law and Order, for the simple reason that we accused him of being ministerially responsible for whatever happened there. In the same way the man sitting there, Allan Hendrickse, is not responsible, but as the Minister of Education and Culture in this House, the buck stops with him. The buck stops there.

Our children on the Cape Flats are not at school today. According to this morning’s paper 85% …[Interjections.] I want to address this issue.

Are you speaking about today?

Yes.

Surely this morning’s paper cannot reflect the figures for today?

No, it reflects yesterday’s figures. This morning when we drove past in the bus we counted at least three schools where there were no pupils. There are hon members present in this House who were with me on that bus and who commented that there were no pupils this morning. [Interjections.] To say that the doors of the department are open is not sufficient. We in this House have joint responsibility for the Department of Education and it is our duty to ensure that those children go back to school and that we curb the unrest that is prevalent on the Cape Flats as soon as possible.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member is misleading the House. The actual figures of attendance yesterday were: Athlone, 86%; Bellville, 90%; Mitchell’s Plain, 83%; Paarl, 94%; Wynberg, 91%.

Can the hon the Minister please tell me the figures for Belhar, because those are the schools I am referring to?

Belhar is in the Bellville area of jurisdiction and the attendance there was 90% at all schools.

Apologise.

I shall not. I was basing my statement on a newspaper report and if the newspaper report was inaccurate then the newspaper reporters must be addressed …[Interjections.] However, I still want to carry on and say the buck stops there, because ministerial responsibility demands that the buck stops there. As regards the request yesterday that hon members should not make the Department of Education and Culture the scapegoat, I want to say we are not going to make the department the scapegoat, but we are going to make the hon the Minister the scapegoat for anything that goes wrong in our schools. It is the hon the Minister’s political responsibility to ensure that things go smoothly in our schools. It is senseless to get up in this Committee and blame radical elements for what is wrong in our schools. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: The hon member should teach his child at home; it is not the teacher who should do that. [Interjections.]

The buck stops here and it is up to us to put matters right. We cannot blame the radical elements, because if they are to be blamed, it means something in our schools is giving rise to this.

[Inaudible.]

The hon member must please either keep quiet or request a turn to speak.

Go and teach your children.

My children are educated. [Interjections.]

†If there is anything wrong which causes the radicals to get a hold on that school, it is our duty to ensure that that cause is eliminated so that they can have no hold on our schools. To do so it is not sufficient to invite the parents and offer them free access to one’s office. It is the duty of that hon Minister as the responsible party to go on television tonight and report to the people that the newspaper reports were inaccurate and that schools had an 80% to 90% attendance. In that way the reports which I as a member of this House accepted as the truth and which would likewise have been accepted by all people who read them as the truth, will be waylaid. It is the duty of the hon the Minister to go on television tonight and make the same statement he has just made.

*I now want to deal with another aspect. We visited Bloemfontein and Kimberley over the weekend, and in Kimberley in particular we saw how some of our young boys with Std 4 and even lower were being taught certain tasks in a military base. The military is merely putting a plaster on the wound, however. I want to know why those boys have been educated only up to Std 4 or lower and why they have ended up in those camps. We must address that problem.

[Inaudible.]

If the hon member for Britstown will keep quiet, I shall go into more detail on the subject. I do not know whether we can get rid of this wound. Why must our children leave school before they have passed Std 4? In this case provision has been made for more than 600 boys in that camp in the North-West. I understand that similar camps are going to be equipped to meet the need elsewhere. That need need not arise, however, if we address the problem at school level. We must do something in this House.

Make a suggestion.

I suggest that a committee be appointed to investigate the causes so that we can surmount that problem, because things cannot go on in this way. We cannot permit only one out of every 100 children to reach matric.

As long as you promise not to serve on that committee.

If you serve on that committee, I will refuse to serve. [Interjections.]

We have to eliminate the evil of the drop-outs that we do have in our society.

What about an inquiry into discriminatory legislation?

Yesterday that hon member spoke like a Minister. Perhaps he will be considered as a Minister, but if he makes such a noise now, he will not be considered.

Do not lose your temper, man.

I have never lost my temper.

The problem we are experiencing is that too many of our children have to leave school as soon as they are old enough to start wearing trousers. It is a never-ending cycle. We have broached the problem before, and I want us to draw up a plan in this House to eradicate that problem.

†We will be failing in our duty if we do not eliminate that problem in our society because we will then be actively encouraging people to remain in the subeconomic cult from which all of us in this House, thank God, escaped. This sub-economic cult has more than 80% of our people in its grip. In order to do so we should not only teach the three Rs at school.

*It was proved in Kimberley that some of those children who have only Std 4 have the ability to fix the door of a vehicle or to make a jacket with the aid of a sewing machine. Why must those children’s God-given talents be scorned and why must we shift our responsibility in respect of those children onto the Defence Force? It is not the duty of the Defence Force to give those children a better future. It is the duty of those of us in this House to ensure that those children get a better future. The problem originates in our primary schools, and it is the duty of this House to tackle things there.

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member an opportunity to complete his excellent speech.

The hon member may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I also want to know whether those figures apply after 10 in the morning and at what stage the figures were recorded.

†Another point I would like to address, is the question of bursaries, and in particular the question of security. The hon the Minister mentioned in his speech that we have to assist the poorer amongst our students. Yet, when it comes to completing the application forms for a bursary, a student’s parents cannot sign as surety unless they earn a certain amount of money. This places an additional hardship on the student and his parents as they have to find security outside the family.

I want to ask the hon the Minister to review the figure reflected in the application form to ensure that the poor student who deserves a bursary is not unduly penalised because he cannot find surety.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister of Education and Culture conveyed a very purposeful and perceptive message to us in his speech yesterday. I should like to congratulate hon members of the House for having listened in silence to the hon the Minister’s speech.

Once last year I found myself in company where we classified the hon the Minister as the kind of person who could be seen in three different ways. One person said he liked him as a politician; the other liked him as a churchman. One of the people in the company had been a pupil of the hon the Minister when he taught at Alexander Sinton. He said that the hon the Minister would always stand out as an educationist, because everything that he had achieved was thanks to what the hon the Minister had done for him in the classroom.

Yesterday I again gained that impression when the hon the Minister drew the attention of friend and foe alike to how, under his leadership, education could rise above cult phenomena and other things we hear about here. I should like to thank the hon the Minister.

In the same breath I should like to pay tribute to a great educationist who has passed away since last session. He was Mr Sidney Petersen, an ex-principal of Athlone. He was born in the shade of the Langeberg mountains. He was a South African who, in stature, towered above the peaks of the Langeberg mountains. On behalf of the House I should like to express our condolences to his family and pay tribute to him.

I should also like to congratulate Mr Amos Brinkhuys, who comes from a rural area and who has been promoted to a higher position in the department. He is a modest, quiet man who does his work. He does not make a big song and dance in the media. One does not see him making a public spectacle of himself. If one goes into his office, however, one finds that he is a person who works. I hope that his colleagues and junior staff will follow his example. He is not very well at the moment, and I want to wish him everything of the best.

The hon the Minister indicated that, in the short while since he has held the portfolio, members of his department have shown him the necessary respect and put their shoulders to the wheel for the sake of progress.

I would appreciate it if the hon the Minister could tell us next year how that staff has been evaluated since we took over that portfolio as an own affair. Perhaps he could also tell us how they can be promoted. I just want to quote from a report of another Government department, namely the Department of Public Works and Land Affairs. I read on page 4:

Sir, I know we cannot equal that number, but I should like to speak up for the department as a whole: Those who work hard, must get their due reward. For this reason I am speaking up for those staff members, particularly those who work at regional level in rural areas. Therefore I can say that I have peace of mind about this matter with our present hon Minister in control.

The second point I should like to discuss here concerns regional councils and school committees. I feel that these are two statutory bodies, but nevertheless I find that in many cases these school committees in particular are very poorly informed. During the months I have served at regional level, I have not seen any evidence of the confidentiality which such a body should display. Here I feel that true confidentiality is essential, whether in the case of circulars or whatever else, because when it comes to the appointment of staff, we are dealing with important matters. It is not a matter which should immediately be made public for all to know about, because it puts the teacher concerned and the post as such in an embarrassing situation.

The next point I have noted down concerns building programmes. As hon members know, the general public believes that everything is the responsibility of the Minister of Education and Culture. If a school has to be built, it is the Minister of Education and Culture who has to see to it that it is done. Members of the public as a whole are not well-informed and do not realise that this hon Minister still has to convince another department of the necessity for that school. That department—the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services—then has to get hold of the money. That money then goes to a third department, the Department of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture, which deals with the erection of the building. I hope that my hon colleagues here will make that message clear to the public as a whole, and in so doing ensure better transfer of information and better co-operation.

It sticks out like a sore thumb, Sir, that the school plays a role in the community. It is a pity, as we have learned from hon colleagues here, that these days we are reaping the bitter fruits of the policy of not caning pupils in our schools. This whole Committee, as it sits here, knows about caning—at home and at school. I shall never forget how my maths teacher gave me hidings. I think the imprint of his hand can still be seen on my left cheek. I said that three times two equalled five and received a clout. Now I will go to my grave knowing that three times two equals six. For all time A plus B will equal A plus B and not AB. That “equals” sign is something pupils have to think about, however. Sometimes they are just a bit too lazy and a few clouts or smacks will sort them out.

I see the executive director smiling at this, but that was the method he adopted in the maths class. There one really had to think! It was not how he taught that was important, but the guidance he gave. At the end of each day he had all his pupils thinking, and that was why his results were always excellent. Unfortunately this does not happen today.

I should like all community activities to centre around the school. More sports facilities should be provided, not only for schools, but also for the community. It would be a great financial saving and at the same time schools could obtain better facilities.

This afternoon I should also like to pay tribute to that group of teachers … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, this afternoon in this House we again saw the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition making himself out to be the new spokesman of the CPTU. Seeing that he is their spokesman I should like him to convey a simple message to them, namely that their leader who visits Master de Klerk and Master Heunis so frequently would do well to visit Master Hendrickse for a change. He will listen to what they have to say.

We also heard the hon member for Border ranting about the shortcomings of our children. In this connection I want to ask that hon member to see to it that he is in this House on 26 and 27 May when the Vote of the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare is discussed. We then want to spell out certain things to him, not matters which are still in the planning phase, but matters which have already been formulated, which have been put into operation and which are already showing results at this early stage. The hon member for Border must please see to it that he is here on that day, because he has quite a lot to learn.

†Sir, too often public debates on education concern themselves with curricula, teacher training, certification, accommodation and finance. However, the forces that most heavily effect development within our education system are to a large extent to be found outside that system. Even if an equal amount of money were to be spent today on a White and so-called Coloured child, the socio-economic backlog outside the school environment would give the Coloured child a decided disadvantage to begin with. These are the realities we cannot close our eyes to in South Africa. The Ministers’ Council in this House has therefore gone out of its way to see to the development of the child in all its spheres. We have not yet reached the end of the road, but we are on our way. To hon members of the Official Opposition I want to say, “Just watch us!”.

*I want to illustrate what I have just said with reference to certain school attendance figures. The hon member for Border made such a fuss a while ago, that I want to tell him—and the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council pointed this out to him too—that his figures are wrong. However, the hon member’s attendance figures are also wrong. According to him more children are dropping out of school every year, whereas the opposite is true. In 1980 there were 754 000 Coloured children at school with a dropout figure of 33 000. Last year there were 819 000 children at school and the dropout figure was only 25 689.

At present research is being undertaken to ascertain whether there is a correlation between the appointment of social workers at schools and improved school attendance figures. It would seem as if there is a positive correlation between the two factors. We must not forget who is responsible for the appointment of social workers at schools. Sir, allow me to point out to you that it is thanks to the LP-controlled Ministers’ Council, [Interjections.]

Let us a go a step further and ask what organised education, for which the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition took up the cudgels today, did in this regard in all the years before the LP came into power here. That was when it showed an upward trend.

They were worried about their own pockets!

Allow me next to cross swords with the clergymen, who are so inclined to criticise. Do you know, Sir, what effect a divorce has on a child’s mind and his ability to do well in the classroom? What are all these “pulpit politicians” doing about the fact that the divorce rate in our community is so high, and about the fact that so many children are involved?

They are arranging the divorces! [Interjections.]

The hon member for Griqualand West says that the opposition party is also participating; I take his word for that.

After all, it is part of a clergyman’s job to give attention to these matters. Because this is a very serious matter, I should like it placed on record that in 1984, 1985 and 1986 there were 3 227, 3 649 and 3 817 divorces respectively in the Coloured community. The number of children involved was 2 757, 3 128 and 3 336 respectively. [Interjections.] The hon member for Border did not tell us this. We are asking the clergymen to pay more attention to their life-work. [Interjections.] The hon member for Durban Suburbs must not get so excited when we talk about divorces and the children involved.

Sir, I listened with intense interest yesterday to the hon the Minister’s announcement regarding special education in our schools. Hon members will recall that in another debate earlier this year I expressed my concern about the fact that we were training our pupils to become qualified unemployed persons. Yesterday’s announcement that more technical schools were to be built and that a special school was going to be established for training in manual skills, was therefore a vitally important pointer.

Before I carry on, I want to come back to what the hon member for Border said. He mentioned the so-called “Project Molteno” at Kimberley, where people with limited scholastic training—frequently they have only passed Std 3 or Std 5—come forward, and undergo military training as well as learning certain manual skills.

He tried to castigate the hon the Minister of Education and Culture and asked what they were doing. This surprised me, because the hon member used to be a member of this party. He was also a member of this party when the Ministers’ Council decided in 1985 to approve this project. Now he is asking what the Ministers’ Council is doing about this. It was their idea. As the hon the Minister has said, the objectives of the school are to prepare the pupil for placement in the open labour market. He went on to say that this step had become necessary owing to the high unemployment rate on the one hand and the increase in the number of adaptation classes on the other.

†For historical and other reasons the present educational system in South Africa has catered largely for the intellectual élite. Even they have lately experienced problems in being placed in commensurate employment. We have experienced a system of education which does not cater for the dedicated average and below average pupil. The school, as it was constituted until recently, did not offer something of value to these scholars. In fact, the secondary school proved in many ways to be terminal to these scholars. It was a system which placed a high premium on high educational aspirations, but not on occupational aspirations.

’Today the hon member for Border again scolded us about the unemployment rate, but he cannot understand that the Ministers’ Council has already identified this problem, and that they have already made plans. However, he only started complaining about this today. [Interjections.]

†The projected increase in the number of technical high schools and the envisaged special schools will bring us nearer to the American model, where early differentiation, according to both intellect and ability, helps to sort out the marketplace. I believe that our fear for technical education has largely been influenced by the 1890 report of Sir Langham Dale.

*The hon member for Durban Suburbs would do well to listen to some history for a change.

†Sir Langham Dale was the then superintendentgeneral of education in the Cape. These very sentiments were repeated in 1956 in the De Vos/Malan Report on Coloured Education. Sir Langham Dale stated:

So as not to be outdone, not to be subservient in content, the Coloured people decided to copy this blueprint and often to make elements, such as our examinations, even more difficult than those of the White section.

While we are possibly the first to recognise the need for education, it is also true that for decades there has been a negative attitude within the community towards what is perceived to be “Coloured education”. It is also ironic that this negativism is particularly strong amongst people who have progressed far academically.

’Unfortunately I cannot say this about my friend, the hon member for Durban Suburbs. [Interjections.] The description of a negative person may apply to him, but on the other hand I cannot talk about “progress”.

†It is equally true that to an extent this negative attitude has resulted in poor performances in education, taking place in a society bedevilled with discrimination, which is reflected in adult life by the filling of the lower paid occupations by a large percentage of our people.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure and a privilege to participate in the debate on the Education and Culture Vote. In support of the Vote, in the first place, I want to convey my thanks to our hon leader and Mrs Hendrickse for everything they are doing for the party and all our people.

I should like to take a closer look at the CPTA. The CPTA is a recognised teachers’ association which receives its correspondence with regard to education directly from the Department of Education and Culture. However, it is a pity that the CPTA and its learned leader are using the Press to correspond with us. I am sure Mr Sonn and his fellow CPTA members know what my address is. If they had made written enquiries it would have been become quite clear that the person who did not get the post at Struisbaai was suffering from the old sour grapes syndrome. My address has not changed for the past 20 years and all members of teachers’ associations who experience problems in my constituency are welcome to write to me. After all, that is far more confidential and appropriate when it concerns something as sensitive as education.

Now the CPTA is apparently saying that only members of the LP get promotion posts. In my constituency all promotion posts have gone to CPTA members. This reminds one that not so long ago certain insurance policies were available only to CPTA members. The CPTA would seem to be well acquainted with the principle of exclusivity—not that we apply it. If any teacher has a problem in respect of which I can be of assistance, the Press is certainly not the ideal medium to use to get our replies. As I have said, my address is unchanged. I have now said enough about the CPTA and should like to come back to my constituency.

I should like to say something about the P4 headmasters in my constituency. As hon members know, the headmasters who serve in P4 posts cannot be appointed permanently, because they are holding temporary appointments. The administration’s regulations provide that one may not be appointed to a permanent post if one is holding a temporary appointment. I should like to ask whether a P4 headmaster cannot be appointed to an assistant post for a trial period and at the same time hold a temporary appointment as headmaster until the trial period has elapsed. He can then be appointed permanently so that he can apply for a permanent post as headmaster.

I should also like to ask whether a school transport service cannot be introduced at Gonnakraal. I also want to make an appeal for one mobile classroom each at Pearly Beach, Gonnakraal and Melkbos as well as two mobile classrooms at Klipdale. I also want to ask whether Klipdale’s school cannot be bought. The church made the department an offer in the seventies. In 1984, when I came to Parliament, I sent a letter to the hon the Minister of Education. I asked him whether they could not purchase Klipdale so that a permanent solution could be found with regard to school accommodation.

In April I had to collect the salary cheques of P4 headmasters from Mrs Brummer, who is the head of that section. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he cannot see to it that teachers get their salaries sooner, because working from January to March without getting a salary causes big problems. Can the regional chief inspector not contact the head office telephonically so that the payment of salaries can be expedited? We have the problem of the temporary teachers who have to have a form filled in by the manager of the school. If the manager is on leave or has been transferred, the clergyman can be approached, but this is not always possible. Sometimes there is no one to sign the form and the poor teacher then has to wait until the clerk appoints a manager who can sign the document. This is causing tremendous problems in my constituency.

Mr Chairman, it is a privilege for me to make a speech while you as the hon member for Riversdal are in the Chair. [Interjections.]

†First of all congratulations and compliments to the hon the Minister for his handling of the post thus far and his policy speech yesterday. I should like to quote something very significant from that speech:

’As the hon the Minister said, it was not the first time that he had raised this issue. I should also like to quote a report from Rapport of 30 August 1986, under the heading “Mnr Sonn, kom ons werk saam”. It is a letter written by the hon the Minister in which he says:

Further on he says:

He concludes with the words:

†I want to support the hon the Minister. Today I want to challenge the organised teaching fraternity, educationists and Mr Sonn and the CPTA in particular to accept the hon the Minister of Education and Culture’s offer if they are serious and genuinely concerned.

*Let us go forward hand in hand with one object in mind—that of a non-racial education system in which every child in our country can enjoy equal opportunities.

†I would also like to welcome the hon the Minister’s approach to “people’s education” whole-heartedly. It is a fact that education has been used in the past to indoctrinate us according to NP policy and to try and make us subservient and obedient creatures of the State. There is a lot of good in “people’s education,” and those positive aspects must be identified and included in our syllabus, especially as regards history. This should be done so that our education syllabus can produce proud citizens, conscious of their dignity, worth and right to claim their fair share in this beautiful country.

Now I would like to refer to matters in regard to my constituency. Education has always played a very important role in our society. It has presented us as an oppressed people with one avenue of escape from abject poverty; a sort of light at the end of the tunnel.

Hon members who are familiar with the Eastern Cape will know that Grahamstown has historically and traditionally been one of the educational centres of the Eastern Cape with its university and certain church schools. I would like to refer specifically to Grahamstown Primary School where there is a serious need for at least one—if not two—mobile units. The figure states that there is accommodation for 1 325 students, while the present enrolment is 1 201. However, we have to look more specifically at the particular circumstances surrounding the schools in Grahamstown. These are old church schools and each one has a history. Those hon members who come from small towns would know the situation—because my parents went to this school, my children should also attend the same school.

An overcrowded situation prevails at the Grahamstown Primary School. The school principal does not even have an office. He uses a 2 x 4 foot storeroom that contains a cupboard in which he keeps all the official documents. This room also houses the PT-equipment, the pot for the soup and various other things. It must be borne in mind that this school is the closest to the proposed extension to the so-called Coloured group area and that there is no suitable ground for a new school in the immediate vicinity. I would therefore like to ask the hon the Minister and his department seriously to review the situation of the Grahamstown Primary School.

I would also like to thank the hon the Minister and his department for the speed in which they assisted us in obtaining mobile units for Marywaters Senior Secondary School. This is the only high school in the entire Albany district, that consists of Grahamstown, Alexandria and Port Alfred, and they have already had to convert their specialised classrooms into normal class-rooms.

This also brings me to the vicinity of Port Alfred, Boesmansrivier, Alexandria and Nanaga. Port Alfred is situated along the east coast, 150 km from Port Elizabeth and from East London. This town also does not have a high school and the problem should be addressed seriously. There is no high school in that whole area. The closest schools with hostel facilities are those in Port Elizabeth and Uitenhage. A lot of our pupils also have to go to schools in Grahamstown where they live with people who are good enough te take them in. However, we know that our people live in small, overcrowded houses. It is also the policy of our party and of our administration to try to keep the child under parental authority for as long as possible.

I ask the hon the Minister, therefore, please to have another look at that particular aspect.

As far as the Kirkwood/Enon/Glenconnor district is concerned, we have one Catholic girls’ school which is not prepared to take in any boys. As a result, the pupils in that area have to travel 50 km to 60 km to Uitenhage and Port Elizabeth to attend high school. At the moment we are looking at extensions to the existing so-called Coloured areas, and I think this would be an opportune time for the Department of Education and Culture to look for a suitable site for the placing of a high school.

As regards Tatlersville, I should like to express my appreciation and thanks to the hon the Minister for expediting the erection of a much needed facility, viz a hostel. This hostel came into operation at the beginning of this quarter and is something of which the parents the community of Tatlersville and its surrounding areas are very appreciative. It is hoped that the official opening will be able to take place as soon as possible.

I should like to make another appeal to the hon the Minister.

Order! The hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, it is a privilege to afford my hon colleague the opportunity to conclude his speech.

The hon member for Addo may proceed.

Mr Chairman, I thank the hon Whip for allowing me extra time.

In my constituency of about 15 towns, covering an area of about 400 km x 200 km, there is only one high school. Given the Government’s onesided financial constraints that have been placed upon us, and while I understand that it would not be possible to build high schools in all these little places, I would ask that we seriously consider expanding the curriculum of our schools. At the moment the school goes up to Std 7. If the school’s curriculum could be extended annually until it reaches Std 10 level, it would be appreciated.

We find in the Gamtoos River Valley, where the main towns are Loerie, Hankey and Patensie, that there are also no high schools. We do have a couple of primary schools going up to Std 5, Std 6 and Std 7. I must urge our department to implement our policy of centralised schools. The Gamtoos River Valley is a farming area and outside of the towns we have many one-man and two-man schools. I believe it is important that we build—in central areas—big high schools with the proper laboratory and sports facilities, especially when situations arise in which the farmer can still come into the school and fetch children during school hours to go and work in the fields because it is harvest time.

As I have said, Sir, given the Government’s one-sided financial constraints and its ridiculous preoccupation with the whole concept of own affairs which we all in this House know cannot succeed in the future, I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to assist in speeding up the possibilities of meeting the needs of our communities. As an educationist himself, he will agree—after all, it is he who told me this—that education is important in the struggle for liberation, be it political, economic or social liberation. The area I represent is essentially a deprived area where children do not have access to libraries and other educational facilities, and I would appeal to the hon the Minister to pay particular attention to the Addo constituency.

In conclusion, I should like to ask the hon the Minister the following question which I hope he will reply to when he replies to the debate. I would like to know how many White, Indian and African students are attending schools that fall under the control of the Administration: House of Representatives.

Mr Chairman, I should like to thank our hon leader for his exciting speech and for his fine explanation of the particulars with regard to this Vote.

Sir, if a country’s education system mainly takes the educational needs of individuals in its education programme into account, the danger exists that those individuals will not be able to meet the requirements of the community and the country in general.

For example, a country can do very little with young people who have only received primary education or a purely academic education. After all, not everyone can be civil servants and do clerical work. In the same way an education programme dare not emphasise only the field of human sciences, agriculture or art. It is also of little use to offer tertiary education if the community has no need for it or is not ready for it. It is nevertheless true that a community can be roused by a well-developed education system to tackle specific tasks and projects for which there was no need in the past. If it were possible, for example, to build music or sports schools where children with a talent in these directions could be taught, the country could take the lead in these fields in a decade or two.

However, we must always bear in mind that the educational needs of a developing community do not only lie in a few fields. A developing community has differentiated educational needs. In the social sphere there are families and groups, each with their own nature, for example sports, cultural, labour and political groups. Within this social context those persons who hold certain posts must be able to play their part properly and thoroughly, for example parents, sportsmen, cultural participants, workers, pupils, teachers, clergymen, Government officials, etc. Each community, whether it be Black, Coloured or White, also has different economic spheres which depend on the natural resources at its disposal, and which require experts. In order to exploit these resources, we need agriculturists, foresters etc. Manufactured products must be sold and distributed and a variety of businessmen are needed for this. In the aesthetic sphere a country needs artists, designers and many other professions. These are the matters and professions for which we must prepare our children.

I also want to ask the Ministers’ Council to give serious consideration to allowing women to retire on pension at the age of 55 and men at the age of 60.

There are three high schools in my constituency, namely the Heideveld Senior Secondary School, Belgravia and Cathkin. As hon members know, Cathkin is one of the schools where there is always trouble. In this regard I want to ask the hon the Minister to see to it that those schools are upgraded and that the department helps us to build halls so that those children can participate in cultural activities there.

I now want to quote from Die Ligdraer of 14 March 1988:

Sir, this reminds me of our high schools. These days they tend to hold their functions at Fame. Fame is a very well-known place in Elsies River. When I read this document, it reminded me of our high schools which hold their fund-raising functions at Fame.

The great founder of communism, Lenin, said as long ago as 1912:

Do we realise that communism is infiltrating our family and community life, as well as our churches? Does this not indicate that everyone in South Africa, but the woman in particular, is urgently called upon to work out a strategy to save our country and its people? Because the youth of today are the nation of tomorrow, we must lead our children with as much love as possible to have an aversion to the eroding elements which are attacking the morale of our people. Do we and our children still know the value of sincerely saying thank you? Do we say still a prayer of thanks in our classrooms when the home-time bell rings, or do the children simply rush out of the door screaming and shouting? This is another place where the woman can get her voice heard and her influence felt.

Mr Chairman, I want to express my appreciation for the way in which the hon the Minister of Education and Culture spelt out the general education policy. It certainly addressed all problems, and should lead to an improvement in our education system.

I also want to express my appreciation for the fact that last week the hon the Minister appealed to the hon the Minister of Finance to increase the per capita expenditure in our education. Our poorer school achievements may be ascribed to discrimination in the per capita expenditure—ie the difference in the expenditure on White education and on so-called Coloured education. If the per capita expenditure in our education system were to increase, there would be an improvement. However, certain hon members in the House of Assembly argue that their per capita expenditure will of necessity be higher than ours because the White teachers’ qualifications are higher. Sir, that is nonsense, and I reject that viewpoint with the contempt which it deserves.

I also want to express my thanks and appreciation for the fact that the hon the Minister voted the necessary funds for the building of a secondary school at Bella Vista. I can give him the assurance that this will definitely relieve the position in the overcrowded secondary school at Ceres.

I should like to compare the quality of our education system with that of the other two Houses. I am going to use the percentage pass in the matric examination as a yardstick to illustrate my point in this regard. In 1987 the percentage pass in the matric examination in the Cape Province was as follows: Whites, 92,7%; Indians, 92,12%; and Coloureds, 67,9%. In comparison with the results of the other two Houses, it would seem that the quality of education in schools of the House of Representatives is still poor.

Next I want to mention a few aspects which could possibly make a contribution towards improving the quality of our education system. I want to link up with the speech which the hon member for Riversdal made yesterday, in which he quoted from the report of the examiners on the matric examination. It is true that the language ability of our school-going youth is extremely poor, and the underlying reason for this is the inadequate school buildings. I was grateful to take cognizance of the announcement made by the hon the Minister of Education and Culture that 12 primary and 15 secondary schools were going to be built in the 1988-89 financial year. These schools will reduce the present overcrowding at schools. What is a problem in our schools at present is that owing to a lack of accommodation the school library cannot come into its own. At many primary and secondary schools in our country the library is used as a classroom owing to a shortage of classrooms at our schools. As a result the children have to do without the essential library periods. There are schools in our country where expensive library books are lying unused on the shelves and in cardboard boxes. A good library system is indispensable for broadening the general knowledge and experience of our pupils, and developing good reading habits to the optimum. I therefore want to appeal to the hon the Minister to see to it that the school library service in our schools comes into its own. I also want to appeal to the hon the Minister to consider appointing full-time librarians at schools. [Interjections.]

In the past few years it has been proved irrefutably that the early years from birth to the age of approximately eight are of the utmost importance for individual development and success at school. It is during these years that the foundation is laid for a large part of the person’s intellectual, socio-emotional and normative development. In the report of the HSRC Prof De Lange pointed out the importance of preschool education when he said that school preparedness was a prerequisite for successful progress at school, particularly during initial education. Bearing in mind the importance of the early years for individual development, the logical deduction is that the provision of services of a high quality to these young children must be seen as a priority.

In view of the importance of preschool education, the department is to be congratulated on the fact that preschool education is progressively being made available at primary schools. However, the problem is that these essential classes are limited to P1 schools only. The smaller P2, P3 and P4 schools are excluded from this programme—namely the provision of preschool education at schools. If one takes into consideration that it is in fact the milieu-handicapped child in the underdeveloped communities who attends the P2, P3 and P4 schools, it is a pity that it is that preschool child, who has the greatest need of preschool education, who is being deprived of this kind of education. There are also farms throughout the country where owners of farms are making facilities for preschool education available on their own initiative. However, these facilities are sometimes deficient.

I therefore want to appeal to the hon the Minister to investigate the matter of preschool education in order to give our preschool children a better dispensation. I also want to ask the hon the Minister to investigate the desirability of teaching subjects such as music, ballet, fine art, pottery etc, at more schools in our country. According to the manual for headmasters which was sent to schools in 1987, headmasters can apply for a syllabus to be expanded, so that some of these subjects can be taught at their schools. However, they are not doing so, because this will give them more work. I know of a secondary school where an appeal was made to the headmaster as long ago as 1979 to introduce music as an examination subject at that school. Up to now this headmaster has not introduced music at that secondary school, in spite of the fact that there are music teachers available and that the local primary school offers music as an examination subject up to Std 7. Valuable potential is coming to nothing in this case. Many headmasters at our schools are guilty of the cultural impoverishment of our community, because they refuse to offer this kind of subject at our schools.

I am of the opinion that there is a great deal of room for improvement of educational aids at our schools. As regards the supply of overhead projectors, an inquiry at a secondary school—I assume this is the general position in our country—with 1 100 pupils and 34 classrooms showed that there were only 12 overhead projectors, of which four had been out of order for the past three years. In addition there are only six screens, so that only six projectors can be used in the school at any given moment.

I now want to discuss the provision of computers at secondary schools, and in this regard hon members must not misunderstand me. I am not referring to the TO AM computer education system which the hon the Minister spoke about in such glowing terms. I am referring to the provision of computers at secondary schools, where computer literacy will be taught. The purpose of computer literacy is to help pupils and teachers to become more familiar with the use of the computer. For this purpose all teachers’ colleges have been supplied with computers. Prospective teachers are trained here to teach computer literacy. However, the trouble with computer literacy is the following: In White schools the subject computer studies is taught as an examination subject on both the standard grade and the higher grade from Std 8 to Std 10. Computer literacy will therefore be taught at White schools in Std 7 and 8. Training in computer literacy is at present being given to aspirant teachers at colleges as well as serving teachers by way of introductory training courses.

These teachers then have to teach computer literacy up to Std 10. The real state of affairs at the moment is that the training of lecturers at colleges as well as teachers at secondary schools is restricted to the level of computer literacy which is equivalent to that of the White pupil in Std 7 and 8. In addition, if a matriculant who is equipped with computer literacy wants to study computer science at the University of Stellenbosch, for example, he is rudely awakened to the fact that he now has to compete with White students who have passed computer studies on the higher level in matric. That is like two students who are both studying Mathematics I at university, but the one passed matric mathematics on the higher grade, whereas the other one only got as far as Std 7.

In order to introduce computer literacy at our schools, secondary schools are supplied with 30 computers if that school also has at least two trained teachers. I want to suggest that computer literacy be replaced by computer studies as soon as possible. However, our problem is that we will not be able to implement this within the next three or four years because we do not have suitably qualified teachers. I also want to suggest that the department motivate college and university students to take computer studies or computer science as a subject by including this subject as a recognised school subject which they can choose from the list of subjects to qualify for a bursary. I also want to suggest—and again I am not talking about TO AM—that the allocation of computers to secondary schools for computer literacy should temporarily cease and that those funds should be invested in education projects for which there is a greater need and which can be more efficiently used to improve the quality of our education system.

In 1986 and 1987 the department provided P1 and H1 schools with expensive video equipment to improve the quality of education. The situation at present is that the schools cannot utilise this expensive equipment effectively, because insufficient educational video programmes are available. I want to suggest that the media centre develop more video programmes so that this equipment can be utilised more effectively even if the department can only supply programmes on prescribed works for the teaching of languages.

The system in terms of which merit awards are made to teachers is at present frustrating teachers. If a headmaster does not like a teacher, that teacher will never get a merit award. I want to request that this matter be looked into so that this system of evaluation, which is still very subjective at the moment, can be made more objective and merit awards can be made more fairly. [Interjections.]

My briefcase still contains many school problems, but I am going to conclude my speech by asking the hon the Minister to try to find a way of refining and developing the in-service training of teachers.

Mr Chairman, to correct a wrong impression that could have been created in this Committee today, I wish to inform the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition that we supported the students in their demonstrations when it was necessary for us to do so. We supported them when they had a just cause. However, when their boycotting became counterproductive, as in 1976, we had the guts—I want to repeat that we had the guts—to hold public meetings where we addressed pupils and pointed out to them the harm they were doing to their total cause. We were proved correct, because the pass rate dropped from 63,3% in 1975 to the greatest low of the decade of 53,5% in 1976 when we had the boycotts. Fortunately our words were heeded. Our hon leader held public meetings to a full hall in the St Martin Parish Hall. His words were heeded at those meetings, because in 1977 the pass rate improved to 65,9%. This is the role the LP played in assisting the pupils to prepare themselves for the coming non-racial South Africa where merit is going to be the sole criterion. The LP did not climb on to a band-wagon as is so often done by certain so-called leaders today. Neither were we fooling around. We were doing a job which we felt ourselves duty-bound to do.

Unfortunately, I make bold to say that nonracialism is at present only confined to the ranks of the Brown people of South Africa. When it comes to open residential areas, one will find that only our areas are actually open. Of this we are proud! We are honoured to be able to do so. In Port Elizabeth we had cases where the widows of deceased Indian husbands had problems with residency because they were “Coloured”. In the meantime one finds scores of Indians living tranquilly and peacefully in those areas described as Coloured areas.

The same goes for business sites. The Brown areas, created so by law, are the only ones in which one finds all sections of the population. Mr Chairman, I am talking specifically about Port Elizabeth, but let us look at the Black areas, the Chinese areas and even the Indian areas. In fact, one can look at any area and one will again find that non-racialism exists in only one particular area. The same applies to our schools. Our schools are bursting at the seams. In other schools one finds incidents like the following, and I quote from the Sunday Times Extra dated 20 March 1987:

In fact, very recently one had the present Department of Education and Culture being accused of all kinds of misdemeanours, of either mismanagement or utter incompetency, because, it was alleged, place was not provided for the 1988 intake of Std sixes. It is beside the point that they were being blamed for the sins of others and that the Std fives are supposed to be placed by their principals while still at primary schools, ie the year before they enter Std 6. What nobody in Port Elizabeth seemed to realise—again!—was that as “our” schools were the only non-racial ones in the Republic of South Africa, and that as previous authorities had, in fact, planned only for Coloureds, the present classroom accommodation could not suffice.

I think that it would only be proper for me to laud the department for its swift and successful action to resolve the thorny problem at home. I want to praise them for providing accommodation for the children of the Black areas of Port Elizabeth who had had most of their senior secondary schools, especially, destroyed by arson during the last series of school boycotts and uprisings.

We accommodated them, so we are to be praised for sharing with and caring for our neighbours. Once again, however, why do our critics in other communities not propagate non-racialism in the schools in their areas too? [Interjections.] Either they do this or they shut up!

I want to reiterate what was said by the hon the Minister in his speech yesterday. If all schools were to go non-racial, or if the schools that requested to be opened to all were allowed to do so, we would hardly have hassles with school accommodation. Why should the hon member for Addo still have to appeal today for high schools for areas in which there are underutilised senior secondary schools; areas like Grahamstown, Hankey, and the Gamtoos River Valley?

They are empty.

They are empty, that is true. Those schools that are standing empty or half-empty at the moment will then receive their proper quota of pupils, whilst the pressure would be taken off those that are overcrowded. If this were to be done, the school building programme of the country would not take up so much of our funds, leaving with us with a considerable sum that could be utilised for what we so badly need throughout this country, and that is housing!

I stated earlier that I lauded the administration for resolving our school accommodation problem in Port Elizabeth. One of the options used was the provision of mobile units. The further option of using the vacant Salem Moravian School in Highfield Road, Schauderville, still remains; but with a rush of blood to the head, some principals were clamouring for the immediate provision of another high school in Gelvandale.

Here I want to sound a note of warning, a word of caution, to those in authority to be very careful and to act with restraint in this matter. Here is where I want to place something within brackets for them: Be concise and careful in your forward planning for the next quarter of this century. Do not allow yourself to be caught up in a House of Delegates situation in which you would have an oversupply of teachers. Do not create a situation in which we too, one day, will have to retrench teachers. If I read the signs correctly, it appears that we are already verging on such a situation. Teachers, unless they are prepared to take up posts in the rural areas, are already encountering difficulties in finding posts in the urban areas.

A further problem arose in Port Elizabeth when the handing over of a primary school in Extension 21, Bethelsdorp, failed to materialise at the beginning of the first quarter.

This was due to the contractor’s failure to meet his commitment. This failure …

Order! I regret having to interrupt the hon member, but his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member the opportunity to complete his speech.

Sir, this failure was the cause of a near riot at the Bertram Road School on the opening day. It was most unsavoury. This problem raises the question of whether we are proficient enough when it comes to establishing the bona fides of tenderers, as well as the monitoring of school building projects. Was this particular tenderer properly screened? In May 1987 I visited the site after meeting a deputation from the Bertram Road school committee and even at that stage it seemed obvious to me, a layman, that something was amiss. We found a total of six people on the job. Imagine six people, including artisans and labourers, in the process of completing a school. Do we not have people who can pick these things up? How much money did we lose on that particular project? We are still waiting for the school to be completed, but we hope this was the last time that we were caught out by what I can only call fly-by-nights.

What one must not lose sight of is the fact that our community is rapidly becoming a middle class community and that our family composition is vacillating as a result thereof. [Interjections.] Sir, I will not comment on that interjection. Instead of a large family, parents are now opting for the type of family which will allow their children to get a fairer share in life. Three and fewer-than-three children families are now the vogue. I am still within my bounds! This will eventually result in a lower enrolment figure in our primary schools, which as a consequence will result in lesser numbers in the high schools and, therefore, a lesser need for teachers in all spheres. This is why one finds 6 000 White graduated teachers without posts. It is the result of bad and indiscriminate planning, planning by which senior secondary schools were built in every White hamlet in South Africa. One can travel from Avontuur to the lowest point in the Langkloof and in each little hamlet you will find a senior secondary school. That is what I call indiscriminate planning, the type of planning which allowed for teacher training colleges to be built in too many towns in a region. Today these empty buildings bear testimony to—and, in fact, are monuments, to remind us of—the “unplanned” planning of others. We should act and plan our future in such a manner that we will not one day be guilty of the same thing.

We must continue to lead South Africa, as we are doing, on the road to non-racialism. Let the call go out from this Chamber today to the rest of South Africa to wake up, to heed our call and to follow in our footsteps before it is too late.

Mr Chairman, because of the pressures on families with two working parents, as well as the large number of single parent families, parents seldom become involved in the education of their children. Only when the child tells his mother that he does not understand something, will she take notice of his progress. Teachers complain of a general apathy and this is clearly seen at parent-teacher meetings where more often than not there is not even a quorum. In this regard I want to refer to an article in the Wall Street Journal, written by Victor R Fuchs, who wrote:

Therefore, I ask the hon the Minister for open days at schools to become the order of the day, so that parents can meet the teachers, see what they have been doing and communicate with them, thus showing an interest in their child’s performance.

Parents who are actively involved in their children’s education engender positive results. One country which sets a good example in this regard is Japan. The Japanese mother is involved in her children’s education. An article in Psychology Today quotes George de Vos, a University of California-Berkeley anthropologist, who has been studying Japanese culture for 25 years. He writes:

In other words, she is involved in her child’s education and shows an interest.

Sir, there is a general decline in standards, and a deterioration in the quality of education of young people in industrialised countries because parents commonly no longer help in the educational process. Parents send their children off to school at the age of five to six. They expect the Government to educate their children. I see the hon member for Border also expects it of the hon the Minister.

What are you saying about me?

Order! The hon member for Griqualand West may proceed.

Education is a process which begins at birth. Experts agree that the first few years set the foundation for future performance. Fundamentally, parents—not schools or governments—are responsible for the education of their children. Parents should realise that schools are not the only element in the education of children. Infants are taught, whether knowingly or not, by their parents from birth. Babies pick up their parents’ attitude and culture. Children observe from their parents, for example, an attitude with regard to music, the use or misuse of alcohol, and respect or disrespect for authority. Parents cannot wash their hands of responsibility for their children’s education. Parents either perform a positive function in their children’s education or, by neglect, set examples which they may later come to regret.

That is why I say it will be helpful, with a view to enhancing the culture of the people, especially in the “platteland”, to have more halls and swimming pools where there can be contact between parents, children and teachers. There should be more eisteddfods and ballet productions. Parents can make the clothes for their children. More concerts and karate competitions should be held, where the parents see their children perform and where there is communication between parents, teachers and the children. [Interjections.]

Sir, I do not want to expose the ignorance of the Official Opposition. They are dwindling away in a pool of ignorance and do not know how to shout for help.

The Holy Bible says one shall teach one’s children when one sits in one’s house, when one walks by the way, when one lies down and when one rises up. Hon members can read that verse in Deuteronomy 11:19. The Bible consistently stresses the parental role in education. Parents are responsible for training their children. I quote from Proverbs 22:6:

Parents need to assert themselves again in the teaching of their offspring. Parents need not be scholars to teach their children. What they need is the will and some imagination to prepare children to function intelligently within society. Children should be taken on outings; they should be exposed to art and museums. Visits to nearby historical sights or restored homes leave lasting impressions. Educational and wildlife programmes are good supplements to formal education in the classroom. When parents themselves resolve to do their share, we will see the reversal of the downward trend in the educational standards and achievements.

In conclusion I would like hon members to remember that the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.

Mr Chairman, it is very difficult to speak after the hon the Minister, but it is my responsibility to do so. The hon the Minister has once again made us deeply aware of the challenges facing our community. He has again made us aware of the fact that everyone in the community has a responsibility with regard to cultural development. One should start, however, by thanking the hon the Minister … [Interjections.]

Order! Too many simultaneous conversations are being conducted in this House. If hon members will not defer to the Chair, I shall be obliged to name them, and to request them to leave the debating Chamber. The hon member may continue.

One cannot but be thankful when one looks at the amounts appropriated for culture in past years. In the 1984-85 financial year R652 000 was voted for culture. In the 1987-88 financial year an amount of R2,162 million was appropriated.

There has been progress, hasn’t there.

I think we cannot but be grateful. If one looks at the number of youth organisations which received contributions last year, it appears that 160 organisations approached the Ministers’ Council for contributions. Youth organisations, women’s organisations, sports organisations and cultural organisations have approached it for help.

Something is wrong in our society, in our community, however. Do hon members know where we see this? We see it in our schools. Our children are poor in spirit. Their lives are empty. They are caught up in a situation in which education no longer has the same value. [Interjections.] What happened to the school concert, the tickey-evening, the pancake-evening, the curry-evening, the soup-evening, the games-evening, the I-spy game, the dolos game we played as children and the slate—klipvyfie was the name of the game—we kicked across the floor? [Interjections.] Where are kennetjie; housey-housey and mommy-and-daddy? Where have all those games gone? [Interjections.] I know there are men here who very much wanted to play daddy at the time. We must come back to real living.

I should like to tell hon members what is said here about culture:

Another expression states:

Our children’s school lives are dull. I should like to tell hon members today that as members of Parliament we also have a responsibility in our constituencies. The development of culture in our community is a responsibility which rests on the shoulders of each of us. These days it is not good enough, merely during this debate, to speak about the shortcomings without doing some soul-searching. I should like to ask hon members to what extent they encourage cultural activities in their constituencies. What efforts do they make towards revitalising or reanimating that fact of life? It is important for us to see our voters as people and not merely to look at the political advantages they hold for us. We must not only see a voter as someone who has the right to cast a vote; we must see our voters as people. If we accept that responsibility, we shall relieve this department of some of its obligations. We shall strengthen its hand and also assist in the education which it readily wants to promote.

Let us look at what is done by organisations. Let us look at what is done by people who gladly do something. Let us look at the Rural Foundation. Let us look at what is being done there to promote culture. Let us look at what Miss Rosa Salmon does for choir music. Do we, as political leaders, have time to attend choir evenings? We should be there. People want to see us there. People want to know that we are interested and that we are part of the motivation being furnished.

What about “Dit sal die blêrrie dag wies”?

The hon member knows that he is talking under the Vote. It is a real pity I am always speaking to the converted here; those who need the knowledge are never here. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister expressed his concern about things that are wrong with our school sport. I want to congratulate the hon the Minister on his standpoint.

I am glad the hon the Minister has taken this view. Once again it is those who display initiative and who make sacrifices, who want to achieve something and who have ideals, who are thwarted for political or other reasons.

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon member for Mamre an opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon Whip. There are many children who want to take part in normal sport. That is a fact. Normal sport is an indisputable fact of life and we must increase the percentage of participants. This is what I am striving for. Through the years I have had a strategy for doing so. I cannot stand the fact that children who want to participate in that kind of sport are discriminated against. Martin Luther King said in A Leiter from the Birmingham Jail, August 1983: “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”. Sir, those people who stand for freedom—how far does their sense of freedom reach, for example those teachers who speak of “the struggle”? How far does their knowledge of the quality of their own freedom reach?

Only as far as their monthly cheque.

That is a pity. At this point I want to ask the hon the Minister and the department to try to continue with the normalisation of sport. Let our department be part of the forum for discussion and let us get our various schools together, regardless of race, and arrange competitions for everyone who would like to participate. It is necessary to work out a strategy if we want to increase the percentage of participation in normal sport. We must not only promote sport and culture amongst the youth, but also consider how we can involve the family as a whole in sport and cultural activities. We must involve the family as a whole in determining its own quality of life and make people aware of outdoor recreation. We have wonderful facilities at our disposal which are not used for days, weeks and months on end. They are perhaps only used over the Easter weekend or during holiday periods in the summer months. For the rest of the time all our holiday camps are empty. They represent millions of rands which go unutilised. I want to ask the hon the Minister and the department to motivate our people to make use of those facilities. We could, for example, start there with schools in the wild, leadership courses and so on. We could offer leadership courses for pupils and teachers, and parents as well as other children can be brought along too. We do not have many facilities at the educational level, but we must use the facilities that exist.

I want to support the hon the Minister’s view that facilities are facilities and culture is culture. We cannot agree with the division of facilities and culture. I understand that the Bo Kaap Museum, the Malay Museum, has now been declared a White own affair. [Interjections.] This is what I have heard, but I speak under correction. Must we deduce from this that Whites are all Malays or that the Malays were all Whites? Yet this is an own affair. We must look for things which can bind us together in this country. We must acquire new symbols. Sport is a symbol which binds us together. Our culture is a symbol which binds us together. These are the things which must bring us together. The hon the Minister says that boeremusiek binds us together. Then we must promote boeremusiek. We must also promote carols by candlelight because that binds different people together.

What about the Coons?

If the Coons bind people together, we must promote them.

Sex is the best way of getting anywhere.

If it is good for that hon member, then he must promote it. [Interjections.]

And you will do the administration.

Today I want to advocate a dynamic attempt to promote sport and culture in our schools, communities and constituencies. At this late stage I want to express my displeasure at the international sporting community and its action against and reaction to Zola Budd, Mark Plaatjies and Sidney Maree. People who say they are striving to achieve freedom in South Africa, to achieve change, integration and the dismantling of apartheid, have no moral right to discriminate against these athletes. One must never punish those who break free of the grip of apartheid. Nor must we ever punish those who have taken the lead in dismantling apartheid. We must support the sports clinics—both rugby and cricket—which are being established throughout the country. Hon members should encourage this new phenomenon in their constituencies and extend invitations to have the clinics held there. We must develop this aspect because these are facets and attempts which will lead to the new South Africa.

I want to thank the hon the Minister for his efforts, and for what he has done. I thank him for this speech, and I believe the Opposition will be able to make much better use of it next year when they know what is going on.

Mr Chairman, I should like to make my contribution to the discussion on the Culture Vote in this House. This year, 1988, is the year of festivals for the White nation. They can look back with pride on their history from 1652, when Jan van Riebeeck first set foot in the country, whereas our people, with their bitterness, hurt and sometimes ideas of revenge, still find it difficult to heal the wounds left by irrevocable events. My people and I find it difficult to come to terms with that. We shall never be able to forget all the things that White Afrikaners have done.

I can clearly visualise the Great Trek to the north. It sets me thinking about the Voortrekkers, the Huguenot festival and the Dias festival.

This reminds me of something else which makes me very depressed, because I realise that the Coloureds in my fatherland are still being excluded. Culture should be used as a weapon to portray the living conditions of our people. In that way the Whites should be made aware of the impoverished conditions under which our people are still living. It is unnatural for our cultural life to be threatened by politics. These days politics forms an integral part of the Afrikaner’s cultural life. The stereotyped image and behaviour of the White South African population was a successful attempt on their part to spin a cocoon around themselves so that they could be safe, and that is still the case today. However, it has done a great deal of harm to the image of the broad South African population. The role of the Whites in the apartheid structure has impaired the dignity of sports stars like Zola Budd and many others and has humiliated them.

Culture is a fundamental element of any population and society. I believe our culture may be compared to the flower of a plant. We shall and we can never forget about the Afrikaner blood flowing through our veins, and because of that we have to make a solemn vow to ensure that our artists convey the message of hope, a message that we will be free. Our poets should convey our goals and desires to the outside world and express these clearly. Moreover, the pen is far mightier than the sword. Our drama groups have to stage their performances in such a way that the true facts about our community are made known and that these facts become a stumbling block for the White people. Their performances should, as it were, force each one to examine himself and they should instill the fear in people not to repeat the mistakes of the past. Productions like “District Six”, “Dit sal die blêrrie dag wies”, “Hamba Dompas” and many others should be screened on TV more often.

We should remember that man is an instrument of God, but that he is also God’s co-worker. For this reason it is very difficult for us to accept that we have to be separated from each other by the authorities. We speak the same language and we have the same religion, ways and habits, and so we cannot accept that we have to have an own culture. André Brink puts it so beautifully in his book on our language In die tree na vryheid: ’n Studie in alternatiewe Afrikaans and I want to quote him:

How true that is! Our children should learn about our Black brothers and their history. The historical facts will be exposed in public soon. [Interjections.]

Our children should stop rejecting Afrikaans as the language of the oppressor. Sir, Afrikaans is our language. Our children have to immerse themselves in the story of their mother tongue. We should know that the monument on Paarl Rock is not a monument to our language, but rather a monument in honour of Afrikanerdom.

Come, let us liberate the true form of the culture and let us cultivate a new South Africa that is free of prejudice in respect of religion and colour. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I want to start by thanking all hon members who have participated in this debate. I want to thank them for their positive contributions and give them the assurance that everything they said will be considered in the light of circumstances, needs and finances. I will, however, not be replying to the contribution of every individual hon member.

I want to start with the last portion of the debate which dealt with the aspect of culture. It is interesting to note that the amount spent by the department on cultural activities has increased over the past year. It is also noticeable that organizations that were previously not prepared to come to the administration are now coming forward with their needs—needs which we are prepared to meet. Therefore, I believe there is a positive change of attitude. We can help to meet certain cultural needs. I can even state that we have had applications for assistance from the denomination of which I was a member at one time, and which changed its constitution in order to withdraw my accreditation as a minister. I can now grant them assistance. Once, again, it is a case of not being prejudiced when it comes to community needs. We put the needs above the whole question of retribution.

It is also interesting to note that we are spending much more on the activities of and movements amongst young people. We are, for example, supplying instruments for brigades to boys and girls of all denominations. I want to express my appreciation to those hon members who have encouraged organizations within their constituencies to make use of these facilities.

With regard to happenings, I will reply more specifically to individuals—particularly to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. However, I must express concern about the fact that, with regard to our schools, there is an attempt to exploit the situation. I almost want to say that there is an attempt to “incite” people. I recall clearly what the situation was like, in 1985 particularly. The Press played a specific role, namely one of communication—the matter received front page attention—and instigation. The Press was used to inform students and others about meetings and to communicate things to the public.

I find it shocking that what is a difficult situation for me and troubling one for all of us is exploited by Cape Times in a large heading, a front page story. Then one wants to ask why this is being done. Without casting a reflection on any particular reporter or correspondent, one has to question the method of reporting and the whole question of turning the actuality into what they perceive to be a situation. I want to draw hon members’ attention to the heading “Rising crisis in Cape Flats education—schools empty” in The Cape Times of 28 April. It states:

I cannot comment on the Black schools being empty, but the reporter has listed them together. It goes on to say:

Now, who makes the claim? Nobody is responsible for making the claim, but the impression of what is taking place has already been conveyed. I quote again:

Once again, it is a misinterpretation. I would like to come back to this issue later on, but Mr Rabie, a circuit inspector, informed schools that this could be the situation. He was not warning them that this was going to happen unless they did something or other. I will, however, come back to that later on. I quote again:

This was in tiny print so that the reader can take note of this big “concern” and then the actuality of the situation is not portrayed as such. I want to say that the figures I gave earlier were the figures for today, Thursday 28 April. I would like to read them again, referring to the educational areas. The average attendance in Athlone was 86%, in Bellville 90% and in Mitchell’s Plain 83%. Allow me to add that an attendance figure of 86% in Athlone is good, in spite of the fact that there was a low attendance at one secondary school. Therefore, if for the whole area the figure can be 86% and one school in that area has a figure of 10,3%, then it does bring down the average for the whole area. Nevertheless, 86% is certainly good. Bellville had a good attendance figure, but one school, Bellville South Secondary School had a low attendance of 56%, which also brings down the average attendance. The attendance at other schools is therefore much higher than 90%. At Glendale and Bergsiglaan, Mitchell’s Plain, we had an attendance of 68% and 62% respectively. In spite of those two low figures we have an average figure of 83% for Mitchell’s Plain. The school attendance in Paarl and Wynberg was 94% and 91% respectively. The situation is not as alarming as people would like to think.

Mr Chairman, I believe there are 93 high schools in the Cape Town area. Do the statistics the hon the Minister mentioned reflect only the attendance at those schools which reported to the hon the Minister’s department, or do they cover all 93 schools?

Mr Chairman, as far as my information goes this is a report from schools in every school inspecting area and I expect that it does reflect the attendance at every school in those particular three areas.

Be that as it may, I want to say it is regrettable that the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition spent most of his time reading other people’s opinions and not conveying to this Committee his own. However, the LP—I now speak as leader of the LP—stands by its document of 1983. We have no problem about that document’s reflecting a situation at that particular time. We have no problems with that. I did, however, find it strange today that the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition has now become the spokesman for the CPTA. They are not prepared to communicate with me or with us …

With De Klerk.

That is another point. They did have communication with Minister de Klerk. As a matter of fact the hon the Minister of National Education invited me to a meeting which he was having with Utasa. I, on principle, refused to attend that meeting, because if Utasa and the CPTA are not prepared to speak to me, then I will not be present when they speak to him. However, if the CPTA wants to speak to me, I do not think the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition should use himself as the launching pad for communication on their behalf.

For the information of the Committee I want to make it absolutely clear that as far as Police action on school premises is concerned, the following measures apply: The department is in control of its schools, but the Police is in control of any area outside school premises. If members of the Police want to move onto a school’s premises, they must receive the permission of the particular principal. As a result of the state of emergency, however, the Police can move onto a school’s premises without obtaining permission from the principal, or anyone else for that matter. We want to state empathically that no prearranged co-operative agreement exists between the department and the Police. On Tuesday afternoon I had a meeting with the Deputy Minister of Law and Order and this morning I had a brief meeting with the Minister of Law and Order. In the course of this afternoon I also had a telephone conversation with them and I asked the Police to refrain from entering school premises. One is appreciative of their role in a difficult situation, but I have asked them to maintain a low profile in the situation which is being exploited by irresponsible people.

*In the disadvantaged position in which we find ourselves, education is the artery of our existence and our future. There are people who want to impede and wreck our future. Consequently they know that, if they can cut the artery, they will ensure that there is no future for us.

†To the pupils I give the assurance that I shall address their grievances—any of their grievances. However, I make this special appeal to them to prepare for the future and to participate in new structures and in a new South Africa by using the present facilities—inadequate as they may be—to realize the belief in education for liberation.

All of us experienced difficult situations when we attended high schools—as they were then called. When I had to go to high school we had to travel thousands of miles. There were five high schools for the so-called Coloured population in the whole of South Africa. However, without nominating that process as one of special education, we could understand and appreciate that where we were was the result of the dedication of our teachers to education. They used that structure to enlighten us and to broaden our minds and our perspectives in terms of the needs of the future.

I believe that without identifying a particular syllabus, the opportunity exists in the situation for our teachers to play a particular and meaningful role in that liberation.

*Sir, we then request that they do not wreck the endeavour for freedom because, if we do not use the opportunities we have and if we do not prepare our children to assume their rightful place when those opportunities are created, we not only wreck the continued existence of our people but also the continued existence of the entire country. That is why I am saying this in this House today.

†In regard to the present state of affairs I want to emphasise that while it is the department’s function to provide and control education, it is certainly the function of the Police to maintain law and order. Under the circumstances the department had no option but to warn pupils—this is where the misinterpretation might come in—in all sincerity to attend schools.

*In other words, the department requests students in all sincerity to ensure school attendance. If they do not do the things they ought to do, however, there is a possibility that they will be called to account. This is a sincere warning directed to them in the interests of students. They must not do things which will wreck their own lives.

†The Regional Chief Inspector referred to in newspaper reports, who communicated this warning to his inspectors in writing, in fact only acted, as did the department, in the interests of the pupils. The fact that this communication landed in the hands of the media serves to demonstrate the ill will of certain people whom I mentioned in my main speech. The matter was further blown up out of proportion by the reports that the department was working in close contact with the Police. By this the impression was gained that the department had requested the police to enter school premises. I want to state quite clearly and emphatically that this was not and is not the case.

*The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition asked whether overfull classes and posts which are filled by Whites had been taken into account in the stricter control measures announced with regard to the intake of student teachers. These measures do not refer to the intake of first-year students at training colleges, but only to those entering for primary teaching courses.

†Mr Chairman, the need in our schools today is at the senior secondary level in particular. Hon members appealed today and yesterday for the establishment of senior secondary schools in their constituencies. However, the Aronson Committee pointed out in its report that we do not have qualified teachers. This is true. We have one senior secondary school—which I do not want to identify—where only the principal is a graduate. It is no good asking for secondary schools if we do not have the qualified staff to man these schools. As we have often done in the past, I would like to appeal to hon members to encourage our students to go to university in order to prepare themselves for the future role they have to play. *The stricter control measures refer to primary education, because we do not have greater numbers than we require in the senior secondary division. At the moment, however, we have teachers in the primary division who do not have posts. In the estimate concerning the number of student teachers who have to be trained, a student-teacher proportion of 23:1 was used. This is what we are striving for in primary schools. Overfull classes are the result of accommodation problems and do not influence the nationwide favourable student-teacher proportion on which the estimate is based.

I should like to ask the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition never to allow our actions to be racistic. Merely to mention that we have too many White teachers in our schools creates the impression that we have to dismiss those people from our service. These people are doing us a favour in that we do not have trained people to fill those posts in our senior secondary schools, especially as regards certain subjects. If we examine the question of bursaries at university level, we shall also have to limit the allocation of bursaries there. We have too many students at university who have Afrikaans or even history as their major subject and too few students taking science, chemistry, zoology, botany and geography. We require people in these disciplines. While we are discussing this subject, it is a fact that we do not have enough teachers who are qualified in the English language.

†Can I also say in passing that it is regrettable that even in 1976, when I was a member of the CRC in charge of education, the then executive took a decision with regard to the third language in our high schools. We asked principals to apply, in preparation for the future, for vernacular languages, or a vernacular language, to be taught in the school. Out of all the high schools—and those are the people who talk about liberation and a new situation and what have you—we have, up to now, I believe, had only one application from a high school—from people who talk about preparing ourselves for the future, liberation, Black domination etc without a willingness to identify. It is interesting to note that in most of the Afrikaner high schools at the moment the vernacular is a third language that is being offered. Hon members in this House should encourage principals and school committees in their areas to propagate this. In the primary schools we do in many instances have members from the White classified group, but here again, as I mentioned yesterday, it is still a fact that our lady teachers in particular are not prepared to go to the smaller areas. It is sometimes difficult because of the lack of boarding facilities, but we have also addressed the other problem which was a factor, namely that many farmers had built farm schools without providing accommodation for teachers and so almost automatically the farmer’s wife became the principal of the school. We have addressed, and we are addressing, that particular problem by accepting the principle of centralization of schools in that particular area and if needs be, of transporting students or pupils by bus so that they can have the best facility.

*The small number of White teachers in primary schools are attached mainly to farm schools where a lack of accommodation makes it difficult to find teachers to fill the posts and where teachers refuse to accept such posts. This number of White teachers can therefore not be replaced by student teachers in the short term. The answer to the question as to whether the proposed strict selective action in the selection of prospective teachers holds a concealed threat, when one takes into account the allegation that our children are being misused by people at higher levels, is no. The only thing I want to ensure absolutely is that only those who feel a vocation for education be selected for training as teachers. That is all we ask. Merely to permit an inspector to select a list of children on the basis of general questions such as why they want to teach is inadequate. I recall from my own teaching experience that the school principal sometimes asked his staff to give their opinions on students who applied for educational bursaries.

†We merely want to be more selective in terms of what we believe are the qualities that should be sought in the persons who apply to be educated as teachers. There is, however, definitely no threat of excluding certain people.

*The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition also asked what I was doing to hold discussions with organised education and parents. I believe him when he says that he is not asking this out of vindictiveness, but it is an extremely sensitive matter. The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition will recall in this regard that organised education indicated at one stage that it was distancing itself from all Government and departmental committees at the macro-level as well as the micro-level.

I also want to say that a large number of teachers do not belong to the CPTU or Utasa. There is also a large number of teachers who still belong to the Teachers’ League of South Africa and a growing number of teachers who belong to Wecto and, in Port Elizabeth, to Ecto. In addition, there are many teachers in the Western Cape who belong to UNE while teachers in the Eastern Cape belong to UNIE. We must therefore not think that Mr Sonn has the prerogative as regards the representation of teachers. In spite of the allegation that they do not want to hold discussions, my department has done everything in its power to reopen channels of communication between the two bodies. I also want to mention that organised education makes use of these channels when it suits them.

As regards parents, the door of my department has been open at all times for discussions with representatives of the parent community on behalf of school committees. For instance, I shall soon be holding discussions with the Bellville regional council for education. We have also met various school committees. In reply to the hon member for Suurbraak’s request, I want to add that we are again addressing the entire question of the election of school committees and their representation as such. At this stage, however, the department is still of the opinion that they will continue with this. There is communication between parents, school committees, the inspectorate and the department. That is why I think the request that I as the Minister should visit every school committee in this country would require superhuman powers. If they desire my presence, however, I am willing to be there for the sake of education.

There was also a question as to whether a separate programme existed for alternative education.

The syllabuses which the department is following at present are well suited to the attainment of the positive objectives of alternative education. It is the revolutionary aspects of alternative education which the department cannot permit or pursue. My department will ensure that this principle is maintained at all times.

†It depends on what one means by alternative education. If it is a re-examination of historical facts or a preparation for real life—I believe this is what education should be—then we will certainly examine all those possibilities.

* A person has to evaluate the statement made by Dr Saunders, Mr Sonn and Prof Gerwel.

†However, to be selective in comments and to exploit an emotive situation is certainly not expected of people who claim to be educationalists. It is regrettable—this is one of our problems—that while we have in our top structure men whom I am certainly proud to work with in the educational structure, as the hon member for Southern Cape said yesterday, it is unfortunate that in some of the departments there are still juniors who are prepared to make leakages to the Press for the sake of sensationalism. Ons does not know for what purpose they do this.

I think the position of the department on corporal punishment is quite clear. I am not going to go back to a situation where we must go into the whole question of sparing the rod and spoiling the child. On some other occasion, however, I will deal with some other aspects in regard to education and its needs.

I want to thank hon members on both sides again for their participation and for what I believe is their sincerity and their dedication to the cause of education and the future of our people.

Vote agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I stand up today to charge and accuse the hon the Minister of gross negligence of his duties in so far as the promotion of the culture of our community in this country is concerned. During the middle of last year we read Press statements of unique findings of a Dr Hromnik, regarding an ancient religious place of worship discovered in the Transvaal in the district of Nelspruit. Widespread publicity was given to that finding which is of historical value to the Sivaites of South Africa and Sivaites around the world.

From the latest information I received, up till eight o’clock this morning, the hon the Minister did nothing whatsoever, nor did he instruct his director of cultural advancement …

Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon member whether he will agree that this matter was raised yesterday and I have a detailed report to present to this House, indicating the action I have taken in this matter.

Mr Chairman, as I said, up till eight o’clock this morning, the hon the Minister did nothing. What he did after that I am not concerned with. I am accusing him of negligence during the past nine months.

Sivaism is an ancient religion; in fact, it is the world’s oldest religion. Any person who relishes meat dishes three times a day, will not understand what Sivaism is about. Any person who craves for a meat dish, will also not be entitled to profess that he is a Sivaite.

These findings are of very great historical value, not only to Indian South Africans, many of whom are Sivaites, but to the country as a whole and the world over.

When I read last Sunday’s Herald Tribune, I was amazed, astonished and taken aback to learn that the hon the Minister of National Education has categorically denied the existence of such relic findings by the renowned Dr Hromnik. He is a world expert. He is a world-famous historian researcher. Nobody in South Africa is qualified, except he, to prove the authenticity of these findings. However, the hon the Minister of National Education accepted a casual glance by a professor of the Witwatersrand University, who has admitted that he had not done any in-depth study of the area. The knowledge of the research teams of the University of Cape Town and the University of Pretoria must be very limited. What they were looking for, apparently, was a huge dilapidated building.

Sivaists believe that God Almighty is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. Bearing that in mind, a true Sivaite never prays indoors. He always prays outside, in the open, because it is an accepted fact that God is omnipresent. No true Sivaite therefore endeavours to enclose God within four walls. That is the fact of the matter.

This Western professor had no right to unilaterally declare that those so-called piles of rocks that were found there, are of no value as an ancient temple and that there is no connection with ancient Dravidian worship.

The directorate of culture in the House of Delegates has also gravely neglected its duty. I read about this matter in the Press. I was very eager to go there, but in Parliament one is not free to do as one wants. Certain standing committee meetings prevented me from going to worship at the place where my ancient forefathers worshipped. However, it was reported in the Press that those Indians Sivaites who were present there, were overjoyed. That alone should have prompted the hon the Minister and his directorate of culture to give attention to this matter and conserve that area. Instead, they let it lie.

Today I was also surprised to understand that the Nelspruit Town Council has been given the green light by White Ministers and professors who know nothing about Sivaism.

They could be challenged on any platform because they know nothing about Eastern culture and the origins of this culture. Those who have been to India can verify that there are temples in India that were built thousands of years ago. One of these is the Sivan temple which was discovered some years ago. The finest wood and the smoothest rocks were used to create this perfect building. Professors in architecture who declare the findings of Dr Hromnik as something that can be thrown away, have never been to that part of the world and they have not studied the architecture found there.

I therefore do not blame the hon the Minister of National Education who says that these relics do not exist, because he is dependent on people of his own culture and beliefs to whom a rock means nothing.

Here I have a geographic map of the area which was previously known as Duragova. This is a Tamil name and originally it was Thoraga Ghowum. The word means “an entrance”.

That is most interesting!

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council is a most impatient man. I wonder how he stayed for nine months in his mother’s womb. He should follow my argument but he is incapable of doing that. He should listen—I am not cracking any jokes.

Order! The hon member made a derogatory remark about the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. He must please withdraw it.

Mr Chairman, I bow to your wise ruling and withdraw it. However, as I said, the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council is a very impatient person.

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise to afford the hon member the opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr Chairman, I am indebted to the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council.

Duragova is an ancient Tamil word and from the pictures it looks like the genuine temple remains. I received a note saying that the hon the Minister wrote to the Nelspruit Town Council asking for a deputation. In the meantime we have also made an appointment to inspect the site on 21 May.

The hon the Minister must not ask for an appointment with the Nelspruit Town Council but he must obtain an urgent interdict to prevent the demolition of those relics. I have full faith in the findings of Dr Hromnik and I support them fully.

There is another interesting aspect to these findings. Before the Voortrekkers settled in the Transvaal a certain area was known as Komati Land. This is also an Indian word, meaning “a miner, a minter or a money-lender”.

Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a reasonable question? I observed from the monitor that the hon member is very much used to the word “nine”, particularly in the way in which he criticised the hon the Minister for not doing his work properly over the past nine months. Will the hon member for Camperdown agree that anybody who likes the word “nine”, whether it refers to nine months of pregnancy or nine months of criticism, is associated with the devil? [Interjections.]

Allow me to deviate with regard to the number nine. Maybe the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, when using the Havan for his Naver Ther Verithas, is compelled to use the nine varieties of grain and other offerings in units of nine. There is no link with the devil.

I now want to come to the matter of Komati Land. That is where the word Komatipoort comes from. One can draw a direct line between Nelspruit and the old Maputo Indian Trade Line, and I beseech the hon the Minister to take any necessary steps to prevent the Nelspruit Town Council from demolishing that relic.

Mr Chairman, I want to refer to the hon the Minister’s budget speech, and I quote:

The hon the Minister says that the support, loyalty and sound management of the department by the Acting Chief Executive Director of Education and Culture has made this task easier.

The Acting Chief Executive Director of Education and Culture has been acting in this position for more or less the past 12 months. I should therefore like the hon the Minister to tell this House very clearly why this post of Chief Executive Director is in cold storage. Why is it still an acting post after a period as long as 12 months?

One could understand if it were for three months or four months. I realise there will be departmental enquiries and investigations, but if that has to take place over 12 months then it leaves much to be desired; then there is something wrong somewhere. This House should then be clearly told what the reasons are.

If one looks at the previous questions that were put and the replies that were given by the hon the Minister in the State President’s Office Entrusted with Administration, one notes that they were rather vague. This House cannot tolerate those kinds of replies. The Minister who is the political head and who is finally responsible for his department should and must be able to give us reasons as to why this particular post is frozen, or why the present incumbent fills it in an acting capacity.

I want hon members to know that I do not hold any brief for him. If he is unfit for the post he should be clearly told that he is unfit and the correct person of merit should be appointed immediately. One must appreciate that the Chief Executive Director is a very important person.

If one analyses any department there is the Director-General and the Minister. The Minister is the political head; he comes and he goes, whilst the director continues. He is the main functionary in that department. One is a political functionary and the other is an administrative functionary. The Minister’s portfolio can change within a month. Today he can be Minister of Health Services, tomorrow he can be Minister of the Budget, and the next day he can be Minister of Law and Order, while the next day he may be an ordinary member of Parliament! [Interjections.] In this House especially, anything can take place.

No rules!

No rules apply in the House of Delegates.

Hear, hear!

Hon members who shout “hear, hear” here should not do so since they do not follow tradition and rules and they do not follow conventions. What I am trying to focus on very clearly, is this: What are the reasons? The reasons must be given by the hon the Minister today.

This must be stated clearly because the previous administration had the present director in cold storage. It is the present administration that took him out of cold storage and made him a director and an executive director. The previous administration—and in saying that I refer to when there was no House of Delegates, and I do not know if it was the SAIC; I am talking about the old days—I do not wish to mention names here because the people concerned are not here to defend themselves, but I remember clearly that they put the present director into absolute cold storage.

We appreciate the fact that he was appointed on merit to the position that he now enjoys, but strangely what is worrying us now, is this: What has happened, and I am sorry to repeat myself, is that for twelve months it has seemed that there has been no mobility. What has taken place? We need an answer.

Not nine months.

Please, make no jokes about nine months. This is a serious matter, and let us not start joking when we are dealing with serious matters.

Order! The hon member for Rylands may continue.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. Having stated that, I now refer to the hon member for Cavendish. That hon member has made serious allegations against the Chief Director (Control) to the extent that he has asked that the Chief Director (Control) should be discharged or dismissed immediately.

A request like this coming from a member of Parliament—a senior member of Parliament—really shocks me.

Because you do not know.

The reason, clearly, is that a Minister is entirely responsible for his Vote. It is a Minister’s head that rolls. I am not asking that the present Minister’s head should roll. A Minister is responsible for the functioning of his department. A public servant cannot answer any questions here. How do we know whether the allegations that the hon member for Cavendish made here, are correct?

Ask for a commission of inquiry.

How do we know that whatever allegations have been made here are true? I am not saying that they are true or that they are untrue, but to publicly ask here, with the Press listening …

[Inaudible.]

What I am trying to say here is that the hon member for Cavendish needs his head examined because …

Order!

… if in the public forum he should come and ask that the Director (Control) should be dismissed …

Order! I am calling the hon member to order!

I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman; I did not hear you.

Mr Chairman, with respect …

Order! Is that the way the hon member addresses the Chair? The hon member will withdraw that statement.

I withdraw it, Mr Chairman.

Order! The hon member may continue.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. However, may I ask you why you called me to order?

Order! The statement the hon member made, namely that the hon member for Cavendish’s head must be read, is not the kind of statement the hon member should make in this House.

But Mr Chairman, I said his head should be examined.

Order! Yes, that is exactly what the hon member said. The hon member has now withdrawn his statement, and he may continue. Does the hon member for Reservoir Hills wish to raise a point of order?

Sir, if the hon member withdraws the obnoxious statement, then I have nothing to say.

Order! The hon member must be warned that this is not the place to make such derogatory statements. This is an honourable House. The hon member may now continue.

Mr Chairman, I accept your ruling, but I am trying to point out that an hon member of Parliament cannot come to Parliament and ask that a public servant’s head should roll. He has every right to ask the hon the Minister any question, right or wrong. The hon the Minister should be able to give all the answers which hon members of Parliament are entitled to know. Public servants cannot defend themselves or give answers as to their actions in the department concerned. They are not in a position to explain, right or wrong, why people are being dismissed.

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member the opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr Chairman, I am indebted to the hon member for Havenside.

Mr Chairman, does the hon member for Rylands know that my allegations could be answered by the hon the Minister?

Mr Chairman, I am saying that hon members can make whatever allegations they wish to, but to ask that a public servant be dismissed …

Mr Chairman, I would like to repeat my question, because the hon member is not answering it. I asked if he knows that the hon the Minister has the privilege to answer my charges.

Order! Will the hon member for Rylands answer the question put by the hon member for Cavendish?

Mr Chairman, I am clearly saying that I know that the hon the Minister can reply. I am only saying to hon members that for them to ask for a public servant’s head to roll or for him to be discharged, is clearly not the way to go about it. That is not the right thing to do, nor the right way to approach matters. It was none other than the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition who at one stage spoke about a particular Minister in the United Kingdom who was walking with his budget speech. Because the contents leaked out, that Minister resigned immediately. He had to carry the can through a fault of his officials.

Mr Chairman, is the hon member prepared to take a question?

No, Mr Chairman, I have no time for questions. I am constrained by time. My advice to the hon members of this House is to refrain from submissions such as that made by the hon member for Cavendish.

Mr Chairman, I would like to dwell on three aspects this afternoon, namely the existing school calendar, the placement of educators and transfers of such educators.

Let us look at the present 1988 school calendar. The first term has 53 school days, the second term 39, the third has 48 and the fourth school term has 55 school days. I appreciate the length of the first term being 53 days, because this term is fraught with disruption caused by the willy-nilly transfer of teachers, as well as staff rationing and class unit adjustments etc.

What I want to point out is that in this age of the computer this wonderful brain is capable of recording the names of teachers, or educators as they are now known, as well as the subjects in which they are qualified, their years of service and all other relevant information that is necessary for the efficient manning and running of an administration.

Once a teacher has settled down in the first term and all his records have duly been brought up to date, he suddenly receives a telephonic message that he must start work at school C, at considerable expense and with considerable disruption, not only to the school where he is presently teaching but also to the new school to which he is being transferred. I want the hon the Minister to examine the whole question of the recording of all relevant particulars regarding teachers so that the placement and transfer of teachers may be done with the minimum amount of disruption.

I have a case here—I do not want to mention the name of the school concerned lest I cause them any embarrassment, and they are not here to defend themselves—of a teacher who was well qualified to teach English in school A. He was transferred to a school where he now teaches geography. Whilst I do not underestimate the ability of this teacher, his efficiency in the new subject he has now been allocated will have a direct influence on his charges. I want the hon the Minister to see how many teachers are thus placed and to investigate whether their placement is contributing to the furtherance and betterment of their charges in that particular school.

I now want to come back to the school calendar. We had a calendar that was running very well. I do not know what forces dictated to the hon the Minister and his administrative officers that they should bring about an adjustment. Whatever the reason, I want to particularly emphasise the winter vacation.

I have heard pleas from parents and grandparents who are rather concerned when pupils have to return in the height of bitter winter weather. In Afrikaans they say: “sidderend koud”, which means “shivering cold”. These children have to return to school in bitterly cold weather.

I am not asking for a total review of this calendar. I am not qualified to do that. However, I know that a calendar is planned well in advance, taking so many factors into account. May I ask the hon the Minister to review this calendar with a view to eliminating certain problems emanating from the one we have at present?

The next area in regard to which I want to address the hon the Minister is that of transfers and transferees. I want to quote my own example in the good old Natal Education Department. The hon the Minister is no doubt mindful of that, and I see that there are some senior officers here.

When one has been appointed away from home and one has served in a particular school for three years, I think it is, an unwritten law comes into effect, and in terms of that law, after three years the principal presented us with transfer forms. In most cases we were considered for a transfer.

I was considered after three years. I want to give hon members the name of the school, because it is very interesting: Montezuma. I wonder if hon members have heard that name.

I come back to the question of transfers. I do not want to embarrass the hon the Minister. I have the names of transferees here in my possession and I will hand them to the hon the Minister in the strictest confidence. I do not want to embarrass the hon the Minister. I have six names here. There is a coincidence in that the six names are all related to senior administrative officers of the department and each of these educators have only served one year. They are being transferred at the expense of those that have served in excess of two years. Should I not say that this is a gross injustice on the part of the Administration?

I want the hon the Minister to keep to the theme. What is the theme of the Administration: House of Delegates? “Ons het dryfkrag vir skoon administrasie”, meaning we are driven to clean administration. I mention this in passing. Can I honestly say with conviction that it is a true example of honest administration when teacher A serves one year in Hlobane—go and investigate that school, for argument’s sake—and is transferred to, for example, Port Shepstone within twelve months? An educator of a neighbouring school, say, Ladysmith, is there for three and a half years, and his letter is not even acknowledged, in spite of this teacher being recommended for a transfer.

I want to tell hon members that I am saddened by this, and I feel that, being a member of this House, I am also guilty, because I did nothing to alleviate the sufferings of certain teachers who deserve transfers. I am helpless. When I go to the hon the Minister or any senior official, I am charged with political interference. Can I say that this is political interference? Have we satisfied our consciences that we have done an honest day’s work and let merit be the criterion?

The third issue I come to is the placement of temporary teachers. A professionally qualified teacher …

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member an opportunity to continue his speech.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. On p 17 of the hon the Minister’s speech it says, and I quote:

Now I ask the question: In the first place, when placements are made, is an assessment of the teacher’s economic and social position taken into consideration? I know of a case, but I do not want to mention names. The teacher’s mother is a maintenance grantee. Until the end of April this particular teacher was not appointed. I do not know if she has been appointed since.

I wish to come back to the placement of teachers. For how long must a teacher serve on a temporary basis? One year? Two years? Three years? As a result of temporary appointments, teachers do not derive the usual benefits, such as subsidies, that a permanent teacher enjoys. This matter was highlighted by the hon member for Cavendish.

Yesterday someone told me that the hon member for Newholme is a very capable man who would get all the funds if he was appointed as Minister of Education. [Interjections.] He will fight and get the funds. He will get the temporary teachers appointed on a permanent basis.

I do not wish to be critical, but these are the facts that I place before the hon the Minister. In the name of justice and the educational progress of our children, I implore the hon the Minister to investigate the areas that I have concentrated on in my speech this afternoon.

Mr Chairman, the De Lange Report of 1981 states, and I quote:

The report continues and emphasises that apart from Whites, and I quote:

To a certain degree the hon the Minister’s report addresses that particular issue in accordance with the De Lange Report. I wish to compliment him on his very well-presented report.

I would like to speak about the role of education committees in schools, and just how effective these education committees really are. It has been said in some quarters that education committees are merely glorified fundraising committees. To a certain extent there is a lot of truth in this statement.

The regulations governing these education committees, are outdated. In most cases I do not think a number of schools have an updated version as to what the regulations and functions of the education committees are. Perhaps we should look at the regulations that have been introduced by the hon the Minister of National Education, and compare that and see how well we can adapt these.

Education committees have an important role to play, because they comprise parents whose children attend a particular school, certain teachers and obviously the principal, who is an ex officio member of that school. However, the Department of Education and Culture does not utilise or explore the potential of a particular education committee to its fullest extent.

Without trying to be negative about the report, I firmly believe that education committees are merely used as tokenism. When sensitive issues need to be discussed, education committees are merely used as a front to reinforce certain decisions which the department is afraid to enforce.

I am also surprised that, unlike the hon the Minister’s Budget speech of last year, this Budget speech does not contain a sports policy like the one that had been introduced last year. There was much expectations as to how this sports policy was to be implemented. Perhaps it would have been nice to have had an evaluation and to see what codes of sports are practised by different pupils in different areas. I am surprised that in this year’s Budget Speech this important facet has been omitted.

Another important aspect of education concerns the teachers employed by the department for vernacular lessons. I am given to understand that there are three categories. Each teacher is allowed to teach for a session of 30 minutes. Most of them are not highly qualified and those who have matric or a lower qualification are paid from R6 per hour. The second category gets paid R9,30 per hour and the third category receives R10,25 per hour. Those with qualifications above the last category are usually employed by private institutions. I am not talking about the metropolitan areas but of the smaller towns. I personally believe that the rates of these people ought to be made more attractive because I do not think any reasonable person will teach for half an hour to receive only R6. It is totally unreasonable to expect this.

Last year the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition raised the matter of the upgrading of the Park Primary School. He had illustrated how important it is to upgrade the school and to renovate it. To date that has not been done. I am sure the hon member will agree with me that that particular school is in a pathetic condition, and I think it is shameful that such schools exist in our areas.

Finally there is a site where the Nirvana High School previously stood. That high school was demolished and it was moved to a new site.

Is it now a site for sore eyes?

Yes, it is.

Like good spirited citizens our school children and teachers play a very active role in the school. They planted hedges and tall trees around this site but that is all that remains there. In the past two months five rapes have taken place there. Perhaps this does not resort under the hon the Minister’s department—it could be under the Minister of Housing—but perhaps something can be done or some indication given to us as to what is going to be done about that particular site.

Mr Chairman, education is most essential in the modern world and I will not hesitate in the least to support a Budget for as large a sum of money possible to be set aside for education purposes, provided that the funds are properly used and not abused.

I have already on several occasions indicated the need for education in technical fields. In my constituency a technical college presently occupied by Whites will be vacated by this White group as they are moving to new premises. I invariably indicated that this college could have been taken over to be used by the Indian Technical College for the East Rand which is a huge area with a large population. Unfortunately, I understand that this college will now become a private college. This was a ready-made school that could have been of great advantage to our people and I feel it is still not too late for negotiations that will benefit our community. I hope and trust that our administration will take such steps.

Not all are born to become white-collar employees. Many children have a latent talent for technical matters and this needs to be exploited.

If this talent is exploited it will make for a healthy labour force in the technical field. The survey that was carried out at the high school level will not show what talent we have in the technical field because this aspect was never offered to our community and therefore we cannot judge how many students would be inclined to this type of education. The only way we could test for this is when this is available. However, the survey carried out in std 7, 8 or 9 or matric to show how many children are interested in the technical fields of education will not give us a true picture.

If our administration could in negotiation with the House of Representatives find a way out, this college would be ideal for the two Houses together to perhaps be able to run the school for both communities on a very advantageous basis.

Why not all three?

Everybody for that matter! What I mean is that the school is about to be vacated by the Whites so let the people of colour use it. We do not want to bar the Whites from attending it, but let us take it over. Here is a stepping stone and we should use it to make a start.

In Actonville we have established a training centre for mentally handicapped children. This centre was visited by both the hon the Minister of Education and Culture in our House and also the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. I must express my gratitude to both these hon Ministers for the required assistance provided by them to the school. However, we still have certain needs which require to be looked into and the school has communicated this to the department of the hon the Minister. I hope that this will be treated on a priority basis.

The children in this school are of the type that has to be brought into and adapted to society in the normal course. As such a great degree of attention is required by a school of this nature. Therefore I have a special plea for the department to give us all the assistance that we require. This is the first school of its type on the East Rand. In the past our children had to travel all the way to Lenasia which is approximately 92 kms away. Also at the moment we need two qualified teachers as there is a shortage at the school. If the department will pay attention to this I shall be most grateful.

Actonville has a population of over 30 000 people and we have no facilities whatsoever in the form of a hall or premises of such a nature. The provision of such a hall is urgently required and this cannot be emphasised more strongly. We have six schools—primary and secondary schools—but none of these schools have these facilities. Therefore if we can have a multipurpose hall to serve the needs of the schools and the communities it will be a boon to the community as such. It is a very big area with a very large population and it really requires the provision of a hall. It is also important if we are to preserve our culture; failing to provide a hall will result in the increase of crime and delinquency and the like. A plea for this hall has been repeated and reiterated and this huge population can no longer be deprived of this essential facility. I trust that the hon the Minister will now direct his urgent attention to this particular need.

I believe the education committees are democratically elected, and my other colleagues have emphasised this. They are democratically elected by the parents of the children attending any given school, and as such they are the mouthpiece for the parents of the children attending those schools.

Some principals are not prepared to accept this fact, especially as in the case of the recent directive by the hon the Minister with regard to the closing of schools in Transvaal on Friday at 12h15. The consultation between the principal and the education committee concerned does not appear to suffice, and some principals insist on the holding of a special referendum amongst parents.

If a referendum is to be held, why is the education committee appointed? What is its purpose? A special meeting is usually called for the formation of the education committee. Parents who have the interests of their children in the school at heart will attend and they will elect the committee. Once that committee is elected, it is the mouthpiece of the community. It represents the majority of the people. Then, when an issue such as this comes up and we say that it is necessary to go to the people for a referendum so that all the parents can say whether they do or do not wish to have this, then one is undermining the education committee. If MPs want to do something in this House, do we have to go to the people for a referendum and say that we cannot undermine the rights of the people? We have been elected to this House, and we speak on behalf of the people. Likewise, the education committee speaks on behalf of the parents. I say that what the education committee says is authentic, and I do not think our principals should now insist on further referendums and things of that nature. This merely creates animosity amongst the members of the education committee. They feel they are just there for collection work, for finding money for the school and nothing else.

The White schools have their education committees, which have very wide powers. They run the whole school, so to speak. We do not have that. Perhaps we will be told that we have not reached that stage, but we are an up-and-coming community and our people cannot continue to be oppressed. They must learn to show that once one has elected somebody, he speaks for one and one must accept what he says.

This business of referendums should not be permitted because this undermines the integrity of the members of the education committee.

With regard to culture, I appreciate that a substantial sum has been expended in the field of Indian music, Indian dances and so on. However, I would like to express the wish that provision be made to call renowned, respected and well-known poets …

Order! I regret that the hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member the opportunity to complete his speech.

I really appreciate the generous gesture by the Whip on the other side.

I was saying that I should like to express the wish that provision be made to call from overseas well-known, respected and renowned poets and shairs, as we call them in Urdu, for the purpose of mushiaria. This is a classical representation of the beauty of oriental language. This is a cultural activity, and if we have this then we can present our culture to the people.

There are many other things I want to say, but I do not think I have to bring them up here; I can take them up with the hon the Minister by way of a letter or by going to see him in his office, since I know he always gives me a good hearing. Before I resume my seat, however, I want to wish the hon the Minister and his department every success in promoting healthy education and the maximum preservation of Indian culture so that it may be fully appreciated in our community.

Mr Chairman, to date we have 948 student teachers who are studying at the two colleges of education and the University of Durban-Westville. Three hundred and fifty of these teachers will be qualifying at the end of this year. Our biggest problem is that we have 1 100 qualified teachers who are filling temporary posts. This creates tremendous uncertainty and frustrations. These teachers should be placed in permanent posts. Political affiliation should not play a role as far as their appointment is concerned.

Furthermore, the hon the Minister must give this House the assurance that the 350 teachers who qualify at the end of this year will be given permanent posts. In respect of the locum teachers the breakdown is as follows: Natal, 361; Transvaal, 163; Cape Province, nine. The total is 533 locum teachers. We have 65 unqualified teachers, making a total of 598 teachers. It is ironical that the department employs locum and unqualified teachers whilst qualified teachers are walking the streets. I am not for one moment suggesting that the locum teachers should be dismissed. On the contrary, I believe they must not be exploited. The current position in relation to locum teachers is as follows: Firstly they are paid on a daily basis; secondly, no pay for week-ends or public holidays or school vacations; thirdly, no medical aid; fourthly, no pension; fifthly, no housing subsidy. As a solution I call on the hon the Minister to give permanent employment to all qualified teachers and to improve the service conditions of the locum and unqualified teachers. I believe that these locums and unqualified teachers must have been employed to satisfy an educational need.

I would like the hon the Minister to know that a number of our schools have very old furniture such as dilapidated desks. Many buildings also need renovating—especially in Chatsworth.

In order to facilitate speech and drama, as well as greater contact between schools and the community, it is important that the school halls be built for the various high schools.

This is my plea. I trust that the hon the Minister will soon be free from his bondage to give support to the legitimate demands of our community. I also want to appeal to the hon the Minister to open up all underutilised schools for evening classes. I also made this appeal during last year’s education debate. This would help our community as far as the working class people are concerned. They need a place where they can raise their standard of education and this will give them that opportunity.

We should also encourage our children to participate in sport and I have noticed that some of the sports seem less popular like golf, rugby, camping, hiking, cross-country …

Golf for school children?

One must start early at school level. It is important that they learn and start at an early age and it is important that we make sure that they participate in this kind of sport.

It may be a career.

Quite correct. It may be a career, yes.

Like fencing.

Yes, that goes for fencing too. I would like the hon the Minister to give serious consideration to this request.

Mr Chairman, having heard the hon member for Phoenix offering me a position I would like to state that any amount of persuasion would not entice me to join his cabal.

What is this cabal business? [Interjections.]

You should know, you are the leader.

I would like to thank the hon the Minister for the fine report produced under this beautiful cover. In such a short period of time so much has been done in the field of education. The building of Northdale Technical College in Pietermaritzburg is a fine example in that respect. The community of Pietermaritzburg is very happy indeed that at present there is no shortage of schools in the area.

The severe criticism levelled at the hon the Minister and his officials is very unfair. They should take a leaf out of the book of the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition and the hon member for Phoenix, who have very little criticism but give plenty of advice and make suggestions as well.

It is this that lends credibility to the House of Delegates. It is no use doing what some hon members do, namely criticise the hon the Minister to the hilt and then, after the debate, shake hands with him and praise him with flowery words. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister of Education and Culture is criticised in Parliament because of his wage freeze and the hon the Minister of Education and Culture in the House of Representatives is also being criticised for asking the police the intervene in stay-aways from schools. That just goes to show that there will always be grounds for criticism under the education Vote. It does not only happen in this Chamber.

No man is perfect but every man of whom we speak badly has some good in him which we do not speak of. Insofar as Indian culture is concerned, it was a thing of the past. The House of Delegates took over and a fine piece of work is being done by the officials in charge of culture. This also applies to the vernacular language being taught in the schools.

My people would like to see the Ministers exert more pressure on the SABC so that Indian culture and films may be shown at least once a week because our community also pays licence fees. [Interjections.]

Insofar as sporting activities are concerned, we see White sportsmen and women taking part in different sports. We also see the Blacks on their channel but when it comes to Indians and Coloureds in sports, there is no coverage. This just goes to show that apartheid also exists in SABC television programmes.

The way in which the image of an Indian is displayed on television is such that if it went on a little longer the tube would be damaged. [Interjections.]

I now want to turn to the question of married teachers who are separated from their wives or husbands either because the husband is many miles away from the wife or the wife is many miles away from the husband. There is no family life and many homes are broken up in this way. I hope the hon the Minister will take note of this because that has been a grouse from the affected teachers and this matter should be looked into.

Also in the case of temporary teachers, as has been mentioned by other hon members, they should be employed on the permanent staff and should not lose out on subsidies and fringe benefits, because they are living in uncertainty as to whether they will be fired the next day or the next week or whether they will receive a permanent position.

Playgrounds at many schools that have been washed away by the floods need to be attended to because we have received many complaints in this regard. I might mention that the executive director is giving attention to this matter. I hope that this matter will be expedited because most of the schools are holding their annual sports. This washing away of the grounds is creating a very serious problem for the Indian schools.

I should also like to see student hostels built near the Northdale Technical College and other technical colleges and high schools, where students from far-away areas and suburbs may come for their education because they have a trying experience when looking for accommodation near their college or school.

In conclusion, I wish the hon the Minister would alleviate the problem of the students from Richmond by accommodating the senior standards for secondary education. The education committee of Richmond has brought to our notice that they have many problems in the way of transport. I am sure the hon member for Southern Natal will also speak on this matter.

The old Baijoo and Maharaj School, which is in Pietermaritzburg, is inhabited by hoboes and is also a menace in my constituency because they often drink and fight there. I understand that the department has employed guards but they also join in the exercise. [Interjections.]

With these few suggestions I once again want to thank the hon the Minister of Education and Culture and his officials.

Mr Chairman, I want to start by saying that education is twice blessed. It blesseth him that gives and him that receives.

I want to come out in full support of the call made by the hon member for Laudium regarding the Transvaal College of Education. I appreciate that the fate of that college appears to be somewhat aye or nay. I ask for a direction from the hon the Minister of Education and Culture so that people, particularly scholars, in the Transvaal will know exactly in which direction they are going.

I want to quote from the hon the Minister’s speech on p 9:

Does this tell me that the fate of the Transvaal College of Education is now sealed? I hope that is the case.

Coming to community education centres, according to the hon the Minister’s speech, on p 11, 16 centres have already been established and 5 more are to be established. I humbly appeal whether, perhaps, from amongst the five new ones, Transvaal cannot be further blessed and enriched, in view of the shortage experienced there.

Turning to parochial matters, in particular Actonville, I must admit that I fully support the hon member for Actonville who highlighted the great need for a school hall. I think he, as MP, amplified the necessity of that important structure.

I have listened to other hon members as far as temporary staff is concerned. I can only reinforce that argument by asking the hon the Minister directly: What would happen if he had been placed in the position in which those people are? I believe that the numerous appeals that have been made here will bear fruit and I trust that the hon the Minister concerned will give us the necessary satisfaction.

There is an area called Rynsoord which is approximately eight to nine kilometres from Actonville. A bus service is provided by the Benoni municipality and our children have to pay to get to school and back at 80 cents per trip. I am absolutely ignorant as to what procedure must be followed, or rather, I wish to remain ignorant, but place this directly on the doorstep of the hon the Minister to see if he could perhaps remedy the problems we have in that area.

I believe that the hon the Minister’s department should take cognizance of a very important address by the hon member for Actonville concerning the technical college. I am not certain whether, a year or two ago, it was the hon the Minister himself or the present hon Deputy Minister of Housing who visited this technical college. Should Actonville, having a population of more or less 30 000 and including the areas of Palm Ridge, Germiston, Springs and Heidelberg, acquire this technical college, it would be a tremendous incentive to the Eastern Transvaal area.

I believe if the hon the Minister of Education and Culture looks into this, perhaps there is still an opportunity left to acquire this important institution.

Education can only be imparted by teachers who are happy with what they are doing. In this regard I must say that the vast majority of our teachers are dissatisfied with the manner that transfers take place. I have already addressed the House on this aspect of education at an earlier opportunity. However, I once again wish to ask the hon the Minister if his department is aware of the geographic situation of the Transvaal. If not, I have a map which I shall make available to them.

One often finds a teacher residing in point A, who has to teach in point F, and then one also finds a teacher residing in point F, who has to come and teach in point A. I wonder whether this is not a case of harassment, rather than finding joy in that field of education.

Take them on a guided tour of the area!

The hon member Mr Seedat says they should be taken on a guided tour. Perhaps this is the solution. I want the hon the Minister to take serious cognisance of this matter. If this department has to restore what we believe education should be, I believe that the hardships of those educators must first be removed. They must be placed in a situation where they will be happy to perform their task. Sadly, this is not the case.

In conclusion I want to make an appeal to the hon the Minister. As far as the Transvaal is concerned, we are creating a situation in which we will find students revolting. It is a serious statement. I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to get this Friday issue sorted out for once and for all, and as quickly as possible.

Mr Chairman, I want to compliment and congratulate the hon the Minister on his very comprehensive and excellent report and for all the positive aspects of Indian education which he highlighted. I want to thank him for providing funds for the tennis court and swimming pool in Umzinto. The tennis courts have already borne fruits. In Umzinto we have two pupils who were awarded South African high school colours. Five pupils were awarded Natal colours, and another two pupils were awarded Natal colours for cricket. This is a fantastic achievement for Umzinto and I am very proud of it. I would like to congratulate all these youngsters on their achievements.

The hon the Minister can see that the facility that he helped to provide is being fully utilised. This could not have been possible without community involvement. The community has three privately owned tennis courts and a qualified Black coach who is very excited about his achievements. What we require is a sports field. Neither the two secondary schools, nor the three primary schools have any sports field. I appeal to the hon the Minister to seriously consider providing sports fields for all schools.

Once again I must remind the hon the Minister of the gifted children. I am disappointed that no attention has been given to them. Unless they are identified early and provided with a challenging school and home environment, they are likely to become frustrated under-achievers. We will then be deprived of potential leaders and outstanding achievers in many fields including sport, commerce, academic life and the arts.

They are the potential leaders to relieve the lot of the House of Delegates.

It would therefore seem reasonable that the needs of these gifted and talented children should be catered for. Apart from their individual benefit it would be a pity if our community was further deprived through the neglect of the potential for skilled and creative manpower.

Another aspect that I would like the hon the Minister to investigate is that of introducing courses in home economics as well as guidance officials. I believe there is a need for these people in our community today with all the housing projects that we are providing. A home economist can offer valuable guidance and it will open up a new field with new job opportunities which are so desperately needed. I will come back to this matter and elaborate further on it when the Budget Vote on housing is discussed.

Having said this, I want to pose a few questions to the hon the Minister. Has he any intention of introducing legislation to allow teachers to retire after, say, 20 years of teaching with full benefits? When will all qualified teachers be appointed as permanent members of staff? I posed the same question last year when I received a reply from the hon the Minister stating that the matter was receiving attention. Is he considering closing all small schools so that pupils could have a better choice of subjects, facilities and tuition?

When will the building programme for the Naidoo Memorial Primary School commence? In a letter dated 20 August 1985 the tender date of January 1986 was mentioned. It is now already April 1988.

Has the hon the Minister considered introducing education in human values, a programme based on five important facets, namely truth, right conduct, peace, love and non-violence? I want to emphasise that the inclusion of these five values in the school curriculum will not in any way interfere with the existing curriculum. Rather, it aims to convert the classroom into a nursery of values.

What I want to say now is not going to be very pleasant. I do not like to say it but I have been confronted with all these matters. When I go to a function, Indian education raises its ugly head and I feel I have a duty this afternoon to mention the anomalies.

First of all, when we talk about Indian education we must be sincere in what we say. We must be absolutely truthful in what we say. When we deal with Indian education we are talking about our children whose whole lives depend on the honesty of the men in control of our children’s education. As far as I am concerned, there should not be political point scoring in our debates and discussions on this vital issue. I say this as a parent, as a community-minded person and also as a member of Parliament, irrespective of which party I belong to. In this important issue I want to be as objective as possible.

I have the highest regard for our hon Minister, for the acting Chief Director and the other two directors. These two directors and the hon the Minister taught in Umzinto so I have known them for a long time. In their teaching days they did a very good job and they produced good people who today are professionals in many fields. [Interjections.]

Time and again we have been assured by my good friend and colleague, the hon the Minister of Education and Culture, as well as the Chief Director of Education, Mr A K Singh, and the two Directors of Education, Mr G K Nair and Mr P Panday, that nothing is wrong and that in fact education is far better and on a sounder footing than it ever was.

We heard yesterday of the wonderful matric results, the millions spent on buildings for schools, halls and the installation of computers. While all of this may be true and the way one wants to see it, I want today to point out to hon members that the morale amongst teachers, principals and inspectors is not as high as we are led to believe, or as high as we think it is.

I am not a person to make wild statements, but I am in contact with educators at all levels—at the very grassroots level too—and what I say has substance. I hope, and I plead with the hon the Minister whom I respect very much, to take note of the fact that morale is low. Educators and inspectors are not happy excepting for a few who perhaps have sold their souls to curry favour.

Levels of productivity have been affected by the shabby autocratic control by one or two people. There is a growing tide of disrespect and disloyalty among very many people who have given a lifetime of service.

Carry on, carry on! You are doing a very good job. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member may continue.

Mr Chairman, at one function I was talking to an educationist who said:

Thank the cabal!

There is no such cabal.

I admire your courage.

I tried to contact my good friend, the Acting Director (Control) earlier on this year. I made no less than 10 to 12 phone calls and he has not had the courtesy to return one of them. Therefore as far as I am concerned he has cut the line of communication between us and so today I have to use this platform. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I ask you, can one man cause so much unhappiness and so much destruction of human dignity? Should we not take note?

Many hon members will ask what can be done without proof and how can one just listen to wild gossip. I am sure hon members are all tired of listening to this excuse.

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise to salute the hon member and to afford him the opportunity to continue with his speech.

Order! I wish to inform the hon member that his time has been extended and he may now continue.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the hon Chief Whip of the Official Opposition. The last time he granted me some time I said I would take him to lunch, but this time I should think seriously about doing that but he is fasting at the moment. [Interjections.]

Let me tell hon members that some of them are wearing blinkers. They should go out into the field and talk to teachers, principals, inspectors and parents. Ignore party politics and whether the people are for or against the tricameral Parliament. Just talk to them as a concerned person and assure them of absolute truth, honesty and confidentiality and hon members will find out what the real issue is.

I want to focus on a few points worth thinking about: Discouraging young men from improving their qualifications with scholarships, and terminating their services on mere technicalities. The general public is aghast at the fact that those in authority are so blind that they do not gauge the public’s anger at such decisions.

I am not talking only about one case, but about many. Some of you will say: “Name them!”. As if names and statistics would cure all our ills! I do not wish to victimise any further those who have suffered already.

Last week I had a telephone call from one of the students from Iowa University, and the exchange called me first to find out whether I would take a reverse charge call. That is the plight of some of these students who have made sacrifices and gone over to improve their lot to come back to impart whatever they have learnt there, to our children. For an Indian student from South Africa to have received a United Nations scholarship is unique, and we must be proud of it; but what are we doing?

Stifling them! Firing them! Frustrating them! [Interjections.]

We have principals complaining that despite great promises being made by our education authorities to the effect that our schools would be fully staffed at the beginning of the year, staffing was incomplete in many schools even as late as mid March. Principals have said openly that they do not see their circuit inspectors, who are now called school managers, any more. Some have met them once only in a year, or not at all. How ridiculous! There is now one school manager for about 80 schools, whereas previously there was one circuit inspector for about 35 schools. Since circuit inspectors have been introduced, goodness knows for what good reason, some of them have been made subject inspectors after years of being experienced circuit inspectors.

The investigation of misdemeanours among pupils, teachers and principals has increased sever-al-fold because school managers have lost control of the schools. In fact, as recently as mid April 1988 these school managers had to be given a seminar on how to carry out investigations. It seems that they are now becoming members of a detective agency or a CID instead of being education inspectors. [Interjections.] Everywhere we meet parents, teachers and principals, the slogan is: “Panday must go!”

Order! Is the hon member referring to Mr Panday, the Deputy Director of Education? I want to inform hon members that the names of public servants must not be mentioned in this House since they are not here to defend themselves.

I have mentioned their names already, Mr Chairman, and I have said all the good things about them.

Order! I wish to remind the hon member that he should not mention any public servant by name. The hon member may continue.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can all these people be wrong, and only a few right? I ask whether it is not worth going into this matter. Is it not worthwhile to retire a 63-year old man who is so disliked for having caused so much pain to people? I dare the hon the Minister to carry out a simple survey, if ever this could be possible, to find out how disliked this particular gentleman is. He will be shocked at the result. He lacks basic human relations, to say the least. I say to hon members that they can sit here and laugh things off, but I tell them that they are sitting on a time-bomb that will destroy all of us. We want people to be happy in their jobs, and not a frustrated lot of people who point to one man as the cause of their frustration.

Finally, some of these teachers now have a new anthem. One hears it on radio: “BP, we keep you moving” Now they say: “BP, you must move out!”

Mr Chairman. I rise to object to such a vicious and despicable attack on members of my administration.

That is all you can do.

I shall be able to answer this fully later on. I detest the fact that …

Mr Chairman, will the hon the Minister take a question?

Order! The hon the Minister is now making a statement, which he is entitled to do, and a question is not in order. The hon the Minister may continue.

That is all I want to say; namely that I despise the fact that—despite having been warned yesterday that the members of the Administration cannot be here to defend themselves—hon members persist in mentioning names in this House.

Order! I wish to inform the hon the Minister that I warned hon members. The hon member for Umzinto adhered to that and no longer mentioned any names of civil servants. I think he was quite respectable, I respect him for that and I believe that his address was very reasonable. Although the hon the Minister may believe his attack to have been a vicious one, I believe that the hon member spoke from his heart and said what he really felt.

Mr Chairman, when problems of this nature—particularly in a department such as the Department of Education and Culture—are not heard by the ruling party itself, it leaves a lot to be desired in the department. I therefore take up the call by the hon member for Rylands and ask the hon the Minister to resign forthwith. It is his department which is ineffective and if we are to heed what the previous Chairman of the House had to say—I believe that it was reasonable—it is the political head of the department who must resign. I now ask the hon the Minister to tender his resignation and we will probably get somebody more honourable who can carry out the work more effectively and keep direction.

The hon member for New-holme!

Order! I would like to find out from the hon member for Bayview to whom he is referring when he asks the hon the Minister about a resignation. I would be pleased if hon members would not refer to any heads of department when asking for people to resign, because it is most unpleasant when we have top civil servants sitting in this House. I would be pleased if such an embarrassment is not caused for the hon the Minister or those public servants who are present, attending the Vote presented by their hon Minister.

Please, Mr Chairman, I want to make it clear that I am not in any way making insinuations or asking heads of department or members of the administration to do that. I am asking the hon the Minister of Education to resign, taking into account what the hon member for Rylands had to say. In cases like this it is the hon the Minister whose head must roll. Therefore I ask his head to roll and he should tender his resignation.

Order! Did the hon member also say that somebody more honourable should take that position? The hon member will withdraw that statement.

I withdraw it, Mr Chairman.

And apologise! [Interjections.]

Order! No, I am not asking for an apology. The hon member may continue.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am also concerned about the snail’s pace with which the department is moving in regard to updating old schools. Some of these schools have been built more than 20 years ago. I am now being very parochial, but in Chatsworth they are being neglected in this respect. Some schools have no sickroom, changing room, stockroom or library. Library rooms have been improvised by using classrooms or multi-purpose rooms for that purpose. What is more, in the event of a girl wanting to take part in sports, she has to go and change in the toilet. The very same thing happens in the case of a boy. We have children who are no longer little babies and some privacy is needed in that respect. Schools in Chatsworth are sadly neglected as far as that is concerned. In my constituency alone—I do not know for what rhyme or reason—there are three schools which haves not been updated.

Times without number I have made requests. I have written to the hon the Minister and I have received replies to the effect that this would be done but to date nothing has been done. [Interjections.] One school has received a letter stating that minor repairs will be carried out.

The toilets are situated some metres away and in the event of inclement weather the children have to walk in the rain in order to get to the toilets. There are no covered walks. I think the hon the Minister should look into this matter very seriously because the updating of schools has been mentioned time without number. Once again on page 24 of his report he makes mention of additions at 11 existing schools, which are 7 primary and 4 secondary schools. In the meantime an enormous amount of money is being spent unnecessarily. That hall in Arena Park is so uncalled for. The money utilised there should have been used for additions to schools of this nature. [Interjections.]

In addition, with regard to that hall that has been built, I am given to understand that some thousands of rand will now be spent on repairing the leaks. This is a sheer waste of money, and yet schools that were built years ago are not updated. This is a crying shame when we ourselves previously complained bitterly about another administration. The responsibility for this has now been handed over to the House of Delegates and we cannot carry it out.

Repairs to the school fall under housing, and not the hon the Minister. [Interjections.]

Very well, but I am talking about schools. It is the hon the Minister who should concern himself with establishing these administration blocks in various schools. [Interjections.] As I have pointed out, there are 6 schools in close proximity. I think it would be very unfair of me to mention the name because if I were to do so, hon members are aware of what the results are in some cases.

My next point is also a very touchy subject. We have teachers in many schools who have been in the employ of the department for many years. For some or other reason a junior clerk telephoned a teacher to tell that teacher that he or she was being transferred to another school. This person had served in the profession for 20 years and a junior clerk telephoned this teacher. I do not really mind him being junior because he takes instructions from his superiors. However, the point is that it should have been a more senior person. In this case in particular I should imagine that an inspector should have approached the teacher and explained to the teacher that his or her services were needed most at that particular school and then tell him or her that he or she was to be transferred to that school. I would not let a junior clerk telephone a teacher after 20 years of service. What kind of consideration is given to the professional ability of the teacher? He is a professional man. He should be treated professionally. [Interjections.] It is a very sad state of affairs. I think this is also a poor administration. We must have people with a better knowledge of public relations and not people of this kind who get a junior clerk to telephone and tell the teacher where he should report.

Furthermore, I know of an instance in which I had to make political representations to the hon the Minister because of the matter in question. The hon the Minister was good enough to come to my rescue and, realising that that was wrong, he adjusted the situation. Whilst he has done that, I feel that the administration was wrong in its approach. Regardless of how wrong the teacher concerned may have been in regard to whatever he or she had done in the school, I think it should be handled more diplomatically. That is the point. [Interjections.]

That is not all. In such cases we also find the person concerned travelling some 40 kilometres while the husband is 40 kilometres to the other side of the town. They are thus separated. [Interjections.] We are supposed to be trying to reduce the divorce rate in the Indian community but we are now trying to widen the gap.

I think the department must take cognizance of how they handle this type of situation and look to it properly. They should not make a decision such as this, which is injurious to the teacher, just because a teacher has said or done something.

I know the problem which I will now raise, exists in all schools. I accept that. It concerns the principal’s teaching hours. I personally feel that a principal should realise the need for and importance of teaching. I also know that it is important that a principal keeps himself abreast of what is going on in the classroom. However, with the changing role of the principal, the magnitude of red tape and bureaucracy that exist in schools, and the wide scope of activities that go on in the school, with sport committees involving parents, education committees and other allied activities, I think the principal has to devote more time to public administration in the school. I believe that he should not be bound by a regulation to teach. It should be an optional thing.

There have been numerous times when I have been to a particular school and found the principal in the classroom. Parents go to the school and find the principal in the classroom. I think this is another aspect which the department has to look into. I know what the answer will be, because it has been given before. However, with the changing times and extra-mural activities, and with the department stipulating that the community must be allowed to make more use of the school properties, the grounds and the swimmingpool … [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, first of all I would like to compliment the hon the Minister on his budget speech presented to us in this House. I in particular, as a new member of Parliament, have been given an insight into the detailed activities of the running of the department. However, I am going to make one or two comments on the speech itself, and thereafter highlight some of the problems in my constituency.

The first point I want to raise is the question of pre-primary school education. I do not think anybody in this House would disagree with me when I say that pre-primary education is of vital importance to our children. Pre-primary school education was not introduced to our children by the State or by the Department of Education, but it was done by private enterprise some time ago.

I can recollect that some ten years ago I lead a deputation to the then director-general. I will name the person; it was a Mr Krog, who then related to us that because of the overflow in schools and the platoon system we have had, it could not be introduced, but that once these were eliminated, the department would undertake to provide this as a fully-fledged programme in the schools. Unfortunately, a few years back the department introduced the bridging modular readiness classes into schools. This was on an experimental basis, and I believe it has proved successful. As a result, I believe from the report, there are some 33 units.

I might be wrong, but I believe that the pre-primary school, run by private enterprise, and the readiness class module, provided by the department, are one and the same thing. If so, I believe it is the duty of the State to provide this education for all our children. At present we have these classes provided in certain areas and certain schools only. We will soon be labelled as discriminating against our children. I would like the hon the Minister to answer and say whether he agrees with me that pre-primary school education is of the utmost importance and whether the State should provide this, and, if possible when this will be implemented as a fully-fledged programme in our education system.

The next item I want to deal with is State-aided schools. I welcome the increase in the grant-in-aid for State-aided schools as well as the take-over of some of the State-aided schools. Obviously, State-aided schools—as I am sure the older generation will recollect—were built by our forefathers when education was not provided by the State.

I think there is a move afoot at the moment for some of the State-aided schools, particularly in the rural areas, to be closed. There are legitimate reasons for this, but I think the manner in which the papers portray it, is doing an injustice to the department.

As I mentioned earlier, one must remember that these State-aided schools were built by the communities. There are many people who have contributed towards these schools. To suddenly be told that these schools are going to be closed, upsets them.

The younger generations have moved out of the rural areas into cities or towns. The number of intakes at these schools have dropped. What will happen to these properties and schools? I think one has to be careful and guarded as to the reasons we give why these schools have to be closed.

I now come to the question of grounds, halls and sports fields. Much ground has been covered by previous speakers. However, there is something I want to know from the hon the Minister. If a new school is planned, are the sports facilities grants also taken into consideration? Here I would like to highlight the problem of one school in Tongaat, namely the Fairbreeze Secondary School. It had opened its doors to pupils some four years ago. I have had a deputation over the weekend in Tongaat from the Chairman of the Education Committee and a few other members. They have made umpteen representations to the department that grounds be provided for this place, but to date there has been no allocation in the budget for that particular school.

The Fairbreeze Secondary School is far from municipality grounds. There are more than 1 000 pupils in that school, but there are no sport facilities for that particular school. I want the hon the Minister to see if he cannot find an answer to this problem.

The hon member for Actonville mentioned that there are six schools without any school hall in his area. From the report I learnt that there are two halls that are being planned—one in the Transvaal and one in the Cape. I would like the Department of Education and Culture to look into this matter, because I think recreation and sports facilities are essential. This is part and parcel of any education system.

Tongaat, for that matter, has approximately 14 schools, including high schools, but not one of these schools has a recreation hall. It is important that we have a hall in Tongaat, as well. I am talking on behalf of all the other areas, as well. When planning is done in future, a regional hall is a must.

I also note from the report that the intake at universities has dropped. There has been an increase in intakes at technical colleges. There has to be some reason for this. I think those who qualify and get degrees are just walking the streets. Perhaps they now want to advance in technical knowledge. Maybe this is the reason for the increase. I am no authority on education, but I want to suggest that areas that have five or six high schools, one of the schools should be converted into a technical college. In the hon the Minister’s report he talks about phase 1, phase 2 and phase 3.

When it comes to secondary education, these subjects should be introduced at some of the high schools. Perhaps one of the schools should be chosen to be converted into a technical college. Maybe technical colleges should be built, if necessary.

I have a problem with teachers who are boarded without any medical grounds. I have to highlight one particular case, and this is in reference to a teacher who fell ill some time last year. He applied to get boarded, because he has not spent much time at school. He has been in and out of hospital and now he has been out of salary for approximately three months. What about the other side of the coin, namely the plight that his family is faced with? He telephoned me over a month ago and he told me that he had not received his boarding money, or anything, for that matter. I contacted the hon the Minister. Afterwards I phoned this man’s wife and she related to me that they had no groceries at home. This man is genuinely sick. He is in hospital at the moment, but for some reason or other there has been a delay somewhere. Must something first happen to the man before he gets the money?

I now come to the question of education committees. Much has been said about them this afternoon. I think entirely new terms of reference, rules and regulations should be drawn up with regard to these. Most of the people, even in areas in Tongaat, say that they are hopeless bodies.

Finally, I want to make mention of our culture. On page 31 of the hon the Minister’s Budget speech it is said that the House of Delegates continues to make representations to the SABC for television coverage of Indian life and culture.

In this regard I want to mention an incident that took place last year. After perhaps much pressure from the Indian community the SABC decided to show some Indian material on TV. The Arts and Drama section of the SABC contacted some dancing schools in Natal. Perhaps they also did the same in the Transvaal—I do not know. These private schools have been started by girls who went to study dancing in India. Some of these schools were contacted last year to compile a programme for television. I can talk personally about the school that my daughter attends.

Order! I regret to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I merely rise to afford the bon member the opportunity to continue his speech.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am grateful to the hon member for Stanger. As I was saying, the producer contacted some of the schools and these schools drew up programmes and started rehearsals. The TV programmes were then actually filmed—at quite a cost for both the State and the schools. The one programme was shot during day time and the other one at night, and the one was a harvesting programme. Entire TV crews were present during the shootings.

The schools were told that these programmes would be shown on “Collage” towards the end of last year. It would have been of value if the whole of South Africa could have seen these programmes but at the beginning of this year the schools were told that the entire programme would be scrapped. I would like the hon the Minister to take up this matter—I will provide him with the necessary details—to find out why the programmes were scrapped.

Mr Chairman, I want to express my disappointment here this afternoon, having listened to the trend of the debate yesterday and today. I want to say that no matter how much cause hon members in this House may have for anger and concern at the conduct of officials, I cannot agree to any hon member referring to any official by name. Let us abide by conventions and not throw it to the winds because we could get ourselves into trouble over this approach. I have no respect whatsoever for any official or anybody else who does not carry out his work in the manner expected of him or who grants special favours to anybody but until the machinery is available to prove these things one cannot point an accusing finger at anybody. The last thing we should do is to use our parliamentary privilege to mention the names of persons who may be involved. My appeal is that we should refrain from this practice.

I also hope that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture will make it possible for the machinery to be created to deal with these matters. Hon members will then get satisfaction when they bring these matters to the notice of the Department of Education. In the final analysis it reflects upon all of us. I believe that with the co-operation and the understanding of the hon the Minister and his department prompt answers can be provided to hon members so as to avoid a repetition of what has happened here during this debate.

I very briefly want to inform the hon the Minister that we in Solidarity lend our support to the hon the Minister in his urgent efforts to make representations regarding the site in Nelspruit. We should do our utmost to examine this with a view to establishing what is there.

I am heartened by the findings of the archaeologist or professor who has done some research work out there, but before we go to town over this matter I think there are certain preliminaries that have to be executed and one of them is to prevail upon the local authority and the hon the Minister to show some understanding in this matter. Maybe at the earliest opportunity a nonparty delegation from this House could visit the area and after that further steps could be taken to investigate this matter with a view to coming to the right conclusions.

The next point that I want to refer to is this: I have in this House on many other occasions indicated the need to give some close attention to technical and vocational training. Last year when I spoke here I said that we have now built enough schools in this field. What is important now is that we have some assessment as to what is happening to these lads when they qualify so that if one has any future programme for expansion they can be based on a pilot project. If I consider what the hon the Minister has been able to achieve in regard to vocational and technical training, I should have thought that principals of these schools would give a little bit of time in order to do some surveys and monitor the situation with regard to those pupils who have qualified at that school. Without this kind of information any planning is simply a day-dream or a matter of doing a job of work because one is at work. I want to have some satisfaction on this matter so that we can mention that we are on the right track. I would again appeal to the administration of the hon the Minister to get the principals of those schools to do some research work and to establish what happened to the lads who qualified in the different fields; for example, have they been able to obtain apprenticeships or were they employed etc. This will then give the necessary satisfaction resulting in the impetus and the need to pursue this programme further. However, it is a waste of time spending a lot of money on fruitless endeavour.

I know that the demand will be there, but we have to monitor developments so that we can vary the courses to cover different fields in order to meet the demands of the market place.

I believe that every head of a school of this nature is a marketing man. What is more, as I have said before, if a fellow is not capable of marketing his product then he is not worthy of that job. I say this with respect as it is a reality and those are the demands of the business place.

A technical school must have at the head of that institution a man who is more than just concerned to be the managing director of the plant. He should also be a marketing manager. Dr Alex Solomon proved this at the M L Sultan Technical College. We need to market our products until they appear on every shelf of every shop in this country. Until then we have a marketing job to do.

Another thing I want to comment on, and I have done this before, is that we must try to establish liaison with employers and employer organisations. I see numerous adverts in the Sunday papers, particularly the Transvaal papers, inviting young people to apply for apprenticeships in so many trades and skills and they state in those adverts that they are employers across the lines of colour. That is a further encouragement to people who are interested in the well-being of our young people.

I think the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council indicated in the House the other day that adverts have been published for nutrition consultants and that they cannot be filled. Here again every year we should scan the field to find out where there are opportunities so that we can institute some classes. I know that one cannot train 40 health inspectors every year, however, but then one must fit in a programme so that one does not close the doors to these people. Similarly with regard to nutrition officers it may be necessary to train 20 each year and then to switch to something else.

Survival means that one adapts and addresses each challenge in a way that will not cause problems for anyone. I believe that if nutrition consultants are necessary in the Indian community there will be employment opportunities for these people in other communities; at least in the foreseeable future.

I took note of the reference to irregularity in the M L Sultan College. I do not wish to go into this matter except to say that it is absolutely necessary for these investigations to be expedited, otherwise the delay in addressing this matter could very well reflect upon the Hon Minister, Mr Chairman, and this House, as a tactic designed to protect somebody.

I think it is well known—the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council is aware of this—that both of us made a commitment some time ago that would see to it that those of our students who wished to take up the vernacular language would realise that ambition. I have commended everybody for what is being done. What worries me, however, is that especially in the formative years of this programme, we are now beginning to offer alternate avenues for children which, however well-intended, could to some young children be an escape. They might say that rather than take languages, they might do some cultural studies. I want these things to be separated and emphasis placed for the foreseeable future on inducing our young people to study the vernacular for all the reasons that have been articulated in this House.

I should also like to inform the members of the administration who wrote this report on cultural studies that one of the paragraphs on page 12 of the report is likely to confuse the reader. It could very well be corrected.

I say: Let us not use this platform to attack personalities. If an hon member has something against an individual, then the mechanism and the machinery is available. I will stand by such an hon member’s side and support him. The administration of the hon the Minister is not …

Mr Chairman, I should like to ask the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition, when he has made 10 telephone calls without being accorded the courtesy of a reply, what he would do?

Order! Does the hon member expect the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition to answer that?

Mr Chairman, I understand the frustrations of the hon member for Umzinto; I agree with what he has to say. However, I say that the manner in which we handle that matter here must not be such that we actually use the names of people. That is my plea. I am not defending anyone, but I am defending the right of people who are not here, to answer questions. Basically, that is what I am saying.

I should like to ask the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition whether I am the only person in this House that has mentioned people by name?

Order! I wish to bring to the attention of the hon member for Umzinto the fact that immediately I asked the hon member not to use names, he complied with my request. Therefore I do not think that that is a question that must be raised now. The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition may proceed.

If you will allow me to finish, Mr Chairman, I wish to say that whereas I was looking at the hon member for Umzinto, I was not addressing myself to him; I was speaking in general terms this afternoon.

I can understand the feelings of people. All I am saying is that there is a convention, and we must abide by it. That is my plea. I am not questioning whether hon members, or anybody else for that matter, is right or wrong. However, I think that there is a procedure, a method and a manner which will add dignity to this House and all of us who participate here. What is more, I have the courage to say it; I do not wish to climb on to a popular bandwagon, and I shall also make it very clear that when somebody is guilty of doing the kind of things in respect of which the hon members are making accusations, then the remedial measures must be applied. I sincerely hope that the hon the Minister understands my plea and that the kind of situation we have had in this House this afternoon will not be repeated.

Order! I wish to appeal to hon members not to use the names of public servants in this debate because it is an embarrassment, and also because those public servants are not here to defend themselves. I should be obliged if hon members would heed the advice that was given by the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition.

Mr Chairman, firstly I would like to congratulate the hon the Minister on the nicely presented Budget Speech. At least one sees progress, not only in the fact that we now have a bound Budget Speech, but also because of the content thereof.

On page 6 the agricultural direction of study is dealt with and it makes one proud to read that a very highly qualified man was imported from Swaziland to teach our children. I am proud of that and I call it progress.

However, let us look at the retrogressive aspect in this Vote. I am talking about the technikons—a facility which is sadly lacking in the Transvaal. Our children have to go to Rivoli …

Or the White technikons.

Or the White technikons … whereas a training college was built in Lenz, yet it was never put into use. We have been asking for that for a long time.

One of the hon members mentioned the White technikons. Fair enough, but if you can have the facility where it has already been established, then why not use it for that purpose? Why did the students then have to go and use the White or Coloured facilities if they have it right at their doorstep? Can hon members imagine the amount of time and money wasted in attending these other technikons or even going to Natal to attend the Indian technikons there? Boarding out costs money.

I believe that the hon the Minister will soon transform the college of education in Pretoria into a technikon.

No decision has been made.

The hon member for Laudium is answering my questions, yet I didn’t ask him.

It was said that this training college was to be closed. I am not sure whether discussions took place, but then it was brought to my attention that it is to be converted into a technikon. Part of it may even remain as it is, because there are not enough students to warrant a complete transformation. I would like to ask the hon the Minister what is taken into consideration when he plans a technikon or a training college.

Population density.

Density?

The production of children has declined.

No, I do not think so. Where the production of children declined, we imported them from Natal. We have more than enough there.

[Inaudible ]

Yes. If hon members want the recipe I can give it to them—but in private. If one takes the population density into account, then the place for a technikon and a training college in the Transvaal would be Johannesburg and not Laudium.

Mr Chairman, is the hon member aware of the fact that we were very bitter at the time when the decision there was taken on political grounds and not on educational grounds?

Mr Chairman, I am aware of the fact that it was political. Hon members may remember that I once remarked in a speech, when the hon the Minister of Finance was present, that they should not do favours to a friend’s friend.

Establishing that college there has damaged the educational system as far as I am concerned, for the simple reason that the college has been taken away from Johannesburg, where it always was, and moved to Laudium.

I believe very strongly that that college of education should be right in the middle of the PWV area and that, I believe, is Johannesburg. That is the place where people from all sides could attend—people from Springs, Lenz and Pretoria, for example. Everyone could go there in the morning and return to their homes in the evening, whereas in Laudium we have problems. One will not be able to get people to travel from Lenasia to Laudium. That is a distance of approximately 90 kilometres, if not more. I think it is over 100 kilometres. They will not travel over 200 kilometres both ways daily. Therefore one would have to have boarding facilities for them. One must realise that time is a difficult situation.

What is more, who are the ones who are really keen to gain an education? It is those people who do not have anything but who want to better themselves and their children. I do not want to work all my life and then send my son somewhere where he cannot even live properly. The sentiments I am expressing here today are those of hundreds of other people in the Transvaal.

We have no technikon and as for the college of education that was in Johannesburg, this has been moved to Laudium, which is a long distance away from everyone.

Look at the distance people would have to travel if they wanted to go from Heidelberg to Laudium. They would have to go through Johannesburg and a further 90 odd kilometres to Laudium. I therefore think consideration should be given to this and that that college of education should be brought back to Johannesburg. I am sure there will be enough pupils in that college of education. [Interjections.] I heard someone speak. With your permission, Mr Chairman, I shall sit down and whoever wishes to speak may speak first. Does the hon member in question mind speaking? I shall sit down. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. At the same time, I should also like to refer to the agricultural college, I think it is, in Shakaskraal. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, I think you should give all these hon members enough time to speak because they want to butt in all the time and I do not like it. I did not interrupt them when they were speaking. [Interjections.] As of today, I think I shall also interrupt when everyone else is speaking.

You are not in the House half the time. [Interjections.]

I want to tell that hon member that he may feel free to check the register. He will find that I am here every day and yet I have a doctor’s certificate which says that I should get out. However, I shall not do so—not for people like him. [Interjections.] It is none of his business anyway. He may do all the timing he wishes. I do not have to stand here and it is no one’s business. It is my personal business whether I am in this House or not. [Interjections.] One has this in Shakaskraal.

Shakaskraal!

Those hon members are such big men and yet they cannot even pronounce the word “kraal”. It is “Shakaskraal”. [Interjections.] One does find people who do a lot of crawling, and of course one cannot expect anything better from them. So let them crawl and I shall continue discussing Shakaskraal. [Interjections.]

Whilst discussing the agricultural school there I want to ask whether, with regard to this technikon, the hon the Minister has made arrangements for a hostel at which people coming there from other provinces may stay? I should like to know that because if there are people from the other provinces, then surely those students seeking agricultural knowledge at Shakaskraal should be subsidised. I think that would be a good idea for the simple reason that, as in the case of the college of education, where people will now have to go to Springfield, the same thing will happen here and it will also become a problem because a great many of our people will definitely take up that type of education. I think it is time they had it and they must be very happy that they are now going to have this type of education.

I therefore think one should anticipate this problem before it happens and consider building a proper hostel and subsidising it so that those who cannot afford it can at least have something to look forward to.

Mr Chairman, education being the subject it is, there has been much criticism, many compliments and much advice, but in the limited time I have I will not indulge in all those.

I have a specific problem in my constituency, namely the bussing of children in Richmond and Port Shepstone. In the case of Richmond, there are 117 children being bussed from Richmond to Pietermaritzburg. The contract has been awarded to a certain operator who has a bus which carries 67 passengers and a mini-bus which carries 20. This gives us a total of 87, but there are 117 pupils being transported from Richmond to Pietermaritzburg.

As soon as the first term of 1986 expired, these children were removed from Richmond and given a place in Pietermaritzburg. This is very unreasonable, because if one has to make changes, one must at least make them at the beginning of the year. One should not allow a whole first term to be completed and then suddenly tell the children that they have to move to Pietermaritzburg. They have to change their uniforms and many other things and the parents did not even budget for such expenses.

Then there is the issue of the quality of the bus service. This is no secret. It has been making headlines for a long time and nothing serious has been done about it, except to change the operators. Here I must point out that I have made some investigations. I think there is a problem, namely that perhaps the term of tender …

The operators from Durban are already in Richmond.

They can come from anywhere, but if they are not a strong company and have not got up-to-date buses, it will not work. If one allocates a tender to someone for two or three years, he will not go and buy a new, up-to-date bus, because once the tender goes, he goes. If one allows a tender for five years and build an extension clause into the contract, one will get quality service. Nobody will go and buy a bus just because they have a two-year tender. What do they do after that? It is not viable, unless it is a big operation, and big operations do not want to go into rural areas.

We have a similar problem in Port Shepstone. The bus arrives late and sometimes it does not even come.

What is a bus without a brake?

Sometimes it breaks without the bus.

The question of Richmond can be solved. I think it only needs a little more resolve. This has been going on for too long and I do not think we must tolerate it any longer. It has reached the stage where members of Parliament from various other constituencies are now questioning me and asking what I am doing about it. I am a patient person, but sometimes patience can also run out. We want this matter to be resolved and resolved immediately.

The standard 6 and 7 classes can be accommodated in Richmond. There are classrooms. Why, therefore, is this not done? Between Baynesfield and Richmond there are about 30 standard 6 pupils and the same number of standard 7 pupils. We can accommodate the standard 6 and 7 pupils in Richmond. I do not want to say what is holding this up, because it will be mere speculation, and unless I am convinced that the speculation is true, I will not say it here. This resolution is possible and it should be done, because it will reduce the number of children that have to use the bus by 60, which will leave about 57 children and the one bus can manage that. We must try to solve this problem. We should not allow these matters to become political issues. It can be solved much easier than by bringing it to Parliament.

The other problem we are looking at is the question of transfers. I have newspaper headlines and other things here, but I will not look at these, because we do not have the time to spend on this. We understand that this is a big department with approximately 10 000 teachers and hundreds of schools. It is not an easy matter to handle.

Then again, one must try and overcome problems as one meets them. They should be regarded as challenges. It is unbecoming to remove a teacher from his family when he teaches in a particular place. If it is at all possible, it must be avoided. Not only does he move away, but a whole lot of other people are also affected—the family, the children. One should not move people around, unless it is absolutely necessary. We have found that these problems exist, and they should be addressed.

As far as culture is concerned, the hon the Minister should be enlightened that people south of Umkomaas cannot tune in to Radio Lotus. Thousands of Indian families there would like to listen to this radio station. I do not have time to listen to radio, but I have had a lot of complaints from people. When one drives past Umkomaas, one is no longer able to pick up the station. This matter should be investigated. These people are paying for their licenses and they should also be able to enjoy this privilege.

Mr Chairman, there are so many matters that are overlapping. I should be able to answer these quite satisfactorily. However, allow me to say this: A lot depends on financial resources. If the financial resources were available in unlimited quantities, hon members would have heard me sing a different tune. I would have been able to provide them with all the halls and pre-vocational schools they required. I would have been able to provide all the preprimary schools hon members wanted. I would have been able to provide all the sports grounds. I also would have been able to employ all teachers in a permanent capacity.

Do hon members think that I, as a Minister, feel happy that there are teachers who are in locum or temporary positions? Do I feel happy, having come from the teaching profession myself? No, sir. I am not happy. However, the resources must be available. The stress is on the resources. I shall come back to this issue a little later.

We have a formula to go by. Ever since the formula has come about, and ever since equality in education for all races has been thought of, we are a party to that. Hon members of this House, as hon members of Parliament, must please bear with us. While we say there must be equality in education for all race groups, we have to pay the price along the line.

What about privatisation? Would that not alleviate the pressure?

Why do you not privatise Parliament?

We have to be realistic in all our demands. We must face up to realities. I will now answer some of the questions that were posed by hon members. In some cases the questions are overlapping, and my answer will therefore suffice for all hon members who posed a similar question.

As recorded in my address, the promotion of CS educators is based on the principle that the most suitable senior candidate is appointed to the post. I am now answering the queries that were raised by the hon member for Cavendish. Unfortunately he is not present. The evaluation of CS educators for promotion is done in terms of a uniform set of criteria as approved by myself on 9 March 1987. All educators, other than schools principals, are evaluated by the principals of the schools to which they are attached. Their evaluations are moderated by members of the inspectorates. The evaluation of principals is done by members of the inspectorate.

While the principal is on the spot and knows his staff, and is therefore in the best position to evaluate his staff and rate them in merit order, he is not in the best position to determine the merits of his teachers relative to teachers in another school or in schools nationwide. Moderation is therefore essential to standardise the varying standards of assessment from principal to principal.

Educators on levels 1 and 2 are evaluated independently on a sample basis by Superintendents of Education (Academic) for the purposes of moderation. In cases where there is a close correlation between the ratings of principals and those of the Superintendents of Education, the principals’ ratings are accepted because they are the men on the spot. However, where there are significant differences between the ratings of a principal and those of the Superintendents of Education, consultation takes place and professional guidance is proffered to the principal. Thereafter all the ratings given by the principal are adjusted statistically on computer.

In order to minimise subjectivity the principals’ ratings of deputy-principals and senior deputy-principals are moderated individually by Superintendents of Education (Management) and Chief Superintendents of Education (Academic). Here I want to say that that is about the best way that we can get to a reasonable assessment. The ratings of CS5 and CS6 principals are moderated by the Chief Director (Control), the Chief Superintendents of Education (Academic), the Chief Superintendents of Education (Management) and the Chief Superintendents of Education (Evaluation) in committee. This cancels the wrong that can be done if one man alone handles promotions or evaluations.

Applicants who do not meet the promotability requirements are not short-listed for promotion. Candidates are placed in promotion posts on the basis of seniority, merit and preference of post as indicated in their applications. The indictment that all the promotions are done by the Chief Director is not only factually incorrect, but also malicious and an abuse of parliamentary privilege. I urge the hon member for Cavendish to act with circumspection and decorum when referring to officials of my department. The same remarks apply to my colleague on this side of the House, the hon member for Umzinto. He did of course say that he was not the only hon member to state these things. We must not abuse parliamentary privilege.

It is on record in a court hearing in which a school principal was convicted of fraud, that the present Chief Director (Control) was opposed to the promotion of their principal because he was lowly-rated and was not the most senior applicant. This promotion was effected at a time when the hon member for Cavendish had some influence on education management. He is not here at the moment but I want to place it on record.

There should be a commission of inquiry to expose all these things, regardless of which side of the House it involves.

Yes, when I think there is a reasonable need for such a commission I will look into the matter. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must give the hon the Minister a fair opportunity to reply.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. I now come to the matter of the appointment of teachers. The hon member for Cavendish also raised the question of the appointment of teachers. He attributed blame to the Chief Director (Control) as being solely responsible for the appointment of all educators.

All appointments to the teaching establishment are based on the needs of the department. The staffing needs of each school are established by the Superintendent of Education (Management) in consultation with the Superintendent of Education (Academic) and school principals.

The Chief Superintendents of Education establish liaison with the personnel section to arrange staffing and the appointment of teachers at schools in their respective management areas.

In spite of the teaching establishment of this department, as determined by the norms of Sanep subsidy, being oversubscribed by more than 600, new appointments are still being made. Therefore hon members can see that we have already overstepped the mark. However, because of the limitation imposed by the subsidy formula all new appointments are in a temporary capacity. Can we be blamed for this? That is the truth of the matter.

When substantive vacancies become available consideration will be given to the appointment of suitable professional qualified educators in a permanent capacity.

I said earlier that it pains us—when I say us I mean the Minister and his department—to have people in a temporary capacity and in a locum tenens, but we are constrained by the fact that we do not have enough substantive posts to fill, and if we do fill certain posts we do not have enough money. We have made urgent appeals in the right direction in order to try to reduce the pupil: teacher ratio. If that happens we shall be able to employ more teachers. I shall be able to answer questions on this a little later. I am very mindful of the fact that the hon member for Reservoir Hills has raised that, but he very conveniently left out something else. While he made a comparison between Indian schools and White schools he lost sight of the fact that the pupil-teacher ratio in the Black schools is much worse. It is 1 to 45.

The statement that temporary teachers do not qualify for the housing subsidy or medical aid is not completely correct.

In his attacks on the Chief Director (Control) the hon member for Cavendish alleged that this Director’s daughter was favourably transferred to a school in a suburb of Durban. Why should a chief director’s daughter not be transferred? Why should the daughters of hon members not be transferred if there is merit in it, I ask. The fact of the matter is that this Director’s daughter was transferred a distance of over 30 kilometres away from their home as she was required to teach a bridging model readiness class which she is qualified to do.

It is important to look at the reasons why this happened. The transfer was affected by the personnel management section of the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services taking the needs of the school into account. That is the important aspect. The suggestion that his daughter was favoured, the hon member’s request that the Chief Director (Control) be dismissed with immediate effect and his reference to the official as a member of the FBI all strengthened the impression that the hon member is using his position to settle an old score with the Chief Director (Control) who was once his colleague on the inspectorate.

I once more make the appeal that while criticism is welcome, especially if it is positive criticism, as we have received from many members, it should be well founded and be made to improve the quality of education. As Minister I welcome all the criticism and where we are able to look at the criticism and improve on what we have so far, we shall do so.

The refusal to grant leave to educators has also been highlighted by the hon member for Cavendish. I want to say to my colleague the hon member for Umzinto that when representations are made these are looked at very carefully.

If attention can be given to these matters, they are attended to. Each human being is an important person. I have here a letter that was written to me by the hon member for Cavendish, who is not present at the moment. He sent me a note before he left, it reads as follows:

This person, whose name I do not want to mention—

This matter was raised here by several people in connection with the teacher who has gone to study overseas and who has asked for an extension of leave. That is surely a fair request. However, there are regulations that control not only me but my department. We have to work within certain regulations whilst still acceding to a request from a member of our teaching profession. There are ways and means of circumventing that and yet retaining his services, provided he is properly advised.

Of the 116 applications for study leave, 110 were granted; I hope hon members will take note of that. We must also take note of the fact that we must not disrupt the smooth running of education throughout the provinces.

The subject needs of the department, the availability of replacements, and relevance of the course of study to the needs of the department, are all carefully taken into account when decisions are made in granting or refusing leave.

In the case of—and I am constrained to mention this—Mr P Naidoo and Mr Michael Pillay, leave was refused and the relevant regulations and explanations were furnished to both these educators. However, we are having a second look at this to see whether we can help such educators.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister a question? There are precedents in this regard, in that one R M Naidoo went across and changed his subject without permission from the department, and he has been granted an extension. Why make fish of one and flesh of another?

Order! What is the hon member’s question?

A precedent has been created already in that leave was extended to another educationist who has gone over in similar circumstances.

Order! What I understand from the hon the Minister is that these matters are being duly looked into. Does the hon member, therefore, still need the hon the Minister to answer the question?

One must bear in mind that circumstances may differ.

Mr Baijnath had resigned of his own accord and although the acting Chief Executive Director was prepared to accept the withdrawal of his letter of resignation, he decided that his resignation should stand. Thus there was nothing much that could be done. The Chief Director has no authority to change the regulations and I am satisfied that his decisions were made within the scope of his duty and in the best interests of education.

During the previous regime of Mr Krog, amongst several other cases, an educator, now Deputy Superintendent of Education, was refused an extension of leave in similar circumstances while studying in Canada and was requested to report for duty, failing which his services would have been terminated. The educator complied. The regulations have to be applied uniformly so that justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done.

The leave of absence of an inspector of education—now of course known by another designation—was also queried. Here the person who applied for leave was granted leave for the period 27 April 1987 to 26 June 1987 for the purpose of going on pilgrimage to the Middle East and also to visit India after the pilgrimage. This was Mr Aboobaker.

On 24 June 1987 this office received a telegram for the attention of the Chief Superintendent of Education, Mr M Pillay. Therein Mr Aboobaker requested a further two weeks of vacation leave, from 27 June to 10 July 1987, as he was proceeding on a short tour of India. That is what he mentioned. The request for extension of leave was refused by the Chief Director of Education (Control). It is important to note that Mr Aboobaker’s action was considered to be irresponsible and it was recommended that he be reprimanded on his return. However, his services were not terminated, but they continued when he returned. He was reprimanded, all right, and that is the duty of the Executive Director. He draws the attention of every employee in the department to these facts. The man was therefore told that he was absent for the period 27 June to 10 July 1987, which was considered to be unauthorised and deemed to be leave without pay. That was the crux of the matter in that case.

I come back to the pupil:teacher ratio. The hon member for Reservoir Hills—once again he is not here—contends that the department has been short-changed in comparison with White education, where the teacher:pupil ratio is 1:18. For the information of the hon member for Reservoir Hills the pupil:teacher ratio currently obtaining in schools controlled by my administration compares very favourably with that obtaining in White education. The very figures for the current academic year are as follows: Secondary schools, 1:19; primary schools, 1:23. Norms suggested by Sanep’s subsidy formula—Sanep stands for South African National Education Policy—are as follows: secondary schools, 1:25; primary schools 1:30. When one considers the State’s commitment to equalising educational opportunities, which I mentioned earlier, and correcting gross imbalances that still exist in certain sectors of the population, we must be prepared to practice what we preach.

The hon member for Cavendish does not appear to understand the South African National Education Policy formula—generally referred to as the Sanep formula—for the purposes of funding an education department. This formula influences the whole spectrum of education in terms of priorities. Firstly, use is made of the subsidy formula which is applied uniformally to all education departments, based on the actual full-time equivalent—or FTE—pupils in a given financial year. I should like hon members to take note of this, because this is what controls almost everything in the education department as far as funds are concerned. This is how financial allocation is controlled. This amount is adjusted by the A factor, to ensure that there is no serious setback in the administration of an education department. The A-factor is a ratio, and I quote:

If the A-factor is below one, it is increased gradually over the years to bring it up to one. If the A-factor is above 1, the A-factor is decreased gradually to bring it to 1 over the years. In the case of Indian education the A-factor for the financial year 1987-88 was 1,205 and this has been decreased to 1,163 for the financial year 1988-89. Hon members will see the reason as to why we might be in that kind of financial position.

Clearly, then, this system of funding was adapted to bring about equality in education for all race groups in the shortest possible time. It is therefore no good telling us that we should look for equality amongst all the races within a short time and, at the same time, to say that we want more money than the other groups. We have to face the realities.

Funding for Indian education is no longer based on needs. If it were based on needs, as I said earlier on, I would have been in a position to provide all those things that we had programmed for. However, because of this new system we had to rearrange our priorities. These are no longer based on funds but on actual full-time equivalent pupils in the previous financial year.

The declining birth rate of Indians and the increase in the total school population from 1987 to 1988 by a mere 3 069 pupils has influenced our budget significantly.

The department has in its employ this year 663 educators in excess of the South African National Education Policy formula and it will therefore be plain to see that we do not have additional substantive posts to fill other than to keep such excess educators on a temporary basis. I am now making out a case as to why we have these teachers on a temporary basis and why we are not able to employ them in a permanent capacity. I should like hon members please to bear with me as I am giving them the reasoning behind all this.

I now want to turn to the hostel issue. Further, the first school hostel at Xenier Hill Secondary School in the Transvaal was built prior to the application of the Sanep formula. The formula does not provide funds for the building of any further hostels. Therefore, we are constrained once again.

No provision is made for primary schools where, for example, from class 1 to standard 5 there is a total pupil enrolment of less than 40. In such an instance we cannot build a school.

I know that mention was made earlier on to why we should not get principals to teach. I think the same question could be asked with regard to why senior deputy principals should teach so many hours. Why should the deputy principals teach for so many hours and why should the HODs teach for 20 hours? They are all taken into account when this teacher: pupil ratio is worked out.

Thus the department continues to serve several rural areas, especially in the Transvaal, with uneconomical schools to the detriment of the department. The priorities for building services have to be reviewed based on available funds. While my department has accepted the principle of providing school halls on a regional basis, priority is determined on the basis of the availability of community halls in an area.

We have a demand to build community halls in various areas but we are giving priority to those areas which have no halls at all. [Interjections ] Presently the department is giving higher priority to demands for classrooms and specialist rooms.

The hon member for Reservoir Hills raised the question of delays in regard to services in Reservoir Hills. I want to assure him that no politician has influenced the delay in any service in his constituency.

As I mentioned earlier, priorities for services are based on funds for capital works in any financial year, and according to the latest priority list of services, the updating of Resmount Primary School is scheduled to go out on tender in August 1988. I am also pleased to inform the hon member that the site problem for Hillview Primary School has been resolved after further negotiation with the University of Durban-Westville, and the tender date for this service is set for November 1988.

I have mentioned earlier, and I do not wish to repeat it, that while the hon member made comparisons between Indian and White schools as far as the teacher: pupil ratio is concerned, he conveniently left out other race groups.

The hon member for Laudium referred to the replacement for the Andrew Anthony Primary School. I recall vaguely that together we made visits to this area, and I also agreed with him that there was need to replace this school sooner or later. The tender date for this service is now set for November 1988 and building operations are expected to commence early in 1989.

As far as the Transvaal College of Education is concerned—and a number of hon members referred to this—it must be pointed out that in terms of the Sanep formulae the intake for teacher-trainees has been reduced drastically, hence the delay in the provision of a new college of education in Cato Manor to replace the outdated Springfield College of Education. On account of limited funds for teacher education, based on the Sanep formulae, it has become necessary for my department to review and rationalise teacher education institutions.

I further want to say that admissions to colleges of education were based on merit. I think one hon member spoke about this and others might also have doubts about it. I wish to clear this. Admissions to colleges of education were, and always are, based on merit. However, while the cut-off point for admissions to the Springfield College of Education was 31 to obtain 100 students, the cut-off point was reduced to 25 in the case of the Transvaal College of Education. Those who are educationists, and some other hon members with common sense, will realise that we went out of our way to get more students for the Transvaal College of Education, hence the dropping of the cut-off point. This meant that students with lower symbols were admitted to that college, but we did not reduce it any further for fear of lowering standards.

Notwithstanding the 50 students accepted for the Transvaal College of Education, only 18 students from the Transvaal qualified, based on the lower cut-off point to accommodate Transvaal students. Further drastic lowering of cut-off points significantly influences the quality of all-round performance of such students who pursue courses up to second year degree content level.

My department is presently considering the proposals by the hon member for Laudium as to whether this impressive building cannot be put to better use, bearing in mind the absence of a technical college in the Transvaal and the need to offer apprenticeship courses apart from secretarial courses. However, I hasten to add that we will not take a decision until we have explored all possibilities as to the best use of that building for education and the type of education that we should have there. It is a substantial building. It has a hostel and it could be used very fruitfully.

I come now to the hon member for Merebank. He requested the establishment of an advisory council on education comprising experts from different fields to advise the department.

I can see merit in the argument that advisory councils are important, but the department already has the services of such advisory councils and committees. It is not found wanting. Hon members may say: Are we making use of them? The answer is, yes, they are fully utilised. There is a host of advisory committees within the department which comprise experts from the academic world, as was suggested, including the Teachers’ Association of South Africa, the universities, the technikons and the departmental officials. They all serve on those committees. These committees operate on a permanent basis and advise the department on such subjects as teacher education, school curriculum, selection of books, prescribed works, school sports and allied matters.

When necessary, I appoint ad hoc committees for specific purposes, for example the fully representative committee which produced the new system of evaluation of educators.

What is perhaps the most important service is the existence of non-racial committees on a national basis which research every aspect of education provision and training. My department is represented on these committees, which have been so structured at the national level as to include the kind of person recommended by the hon member for Merebank, such as representatives from the organised profession of each department and experts in the field of commerce, trade, industry and welfare. Such people are all included with acknowledged academics to advise Ministers of Education and to propose policy changes. Here I am also referring to the South African Council for Education. I am sure every teacher knows about this council. I am also referring the Committee for Educational Structures, the Research Committee for Education Structures, the Joint Matriculation Board, the Human Sciences Research Council and the National Committee for Syllabuses.

Surely it would be unwise for my department to set up parochial research committees for Indians only. We would only be criticised again. We do not do that. For the purposes of our own peculiar needs, the department has its research and advisory components. Finally, in this respect the department always has the free services of the Human Sciences Research Council, should the need arise.

The impression that was created by the hon member for Merebank, namely that there are no advisory bodies, is not correct. It could be misleading. I am satisfied that adequate mechanisms exist for research and consultation. However, I assure him that the department will examine his proposals with a view to establishing the need for such a council in the light of what exists already.

I now come to some comments that were made on culture. Yesterday one hon member asked what culture is. Culture can be defined as the accumulated experience of a group of people together in a fixed geographical area over a long period of time, and sharing a common way of life. The accumulated experience would include their customs, taboos, traditions, dance, music, religion, art, architecture and all aspects of life which not only distinguish them from other communities, but also lift them above the plane of mere animal existence and survival. It is the totality of man’s intellectual, psychological, social, physiological and esthetic existence.

I now come to what the hon member for Cavendish had to say. I share his concern about the temples in Nelspruit. I want to assure this House that I have not been found wanting in this, and I shall prove it just now. Things of this nature must be done in a calm and collected manner, with consultation …

Mr Chairman, I am heartened by the final statements of the hon the Minister. May I ask him whether, in the light of the concern indicated in this House, the hon the Minister will arrange a meeting with the hon the Minister of National Education? It should be done at the earliest stage when the hon the Minister and the other hon Ministers of the Ministers’ Council can meet him. If this is not done immediately, irretrievable harm will be done. The matter is very urgent and it should be attended to this week and not next week.

I have not failed in that area either. However, the hon the Minister of National Education, during a brief meeting, said that he was terribly busy but that we could arrange a meeting.

The top brass bulldozes us already!

I am making strenuous efforts to convince the Nelspruit Town Council to reverse its decision to proceed with the development of Sonheuwel, without preserving what are reported by Dr Hromnik to be the remains of Dravidian temples and relics. On 7 March 1988 I wrote to the Mayor, Mr Brian Shrosbree, and I would like to read the letter. I quote:

This letter was signed by myself. On 29 March this year, I sent a telegram to the Town Clerk of Nelspruit and I want to read that too:

The reply dated 21 April 1988 is as follows:

Telephone calls were fruitless and therefore I resorted to writing again.

The intervention of the hon the Minister of National Education is imperative!

In that connection I just want to say that I did meet the hon the Minister of National Education very briefly. I indicated to him that I was a bit disappointed that this matter had not been discussed with us. Albeit that he is the Minister in charge, the matter is related to the House of Delegates because it is an Indian temple. I told him that we would like to discuss it with him. He said that he did not have enough time on that day but that he would be prepared to talk to me about it some time later.

In the meantime I wrote a letter dated 27 April—we sent it off yesterday—to the Acting Town Clerk, Mr J Brits, and I quote:

I want to say that I have had some discussions already and that I have not been found wanting. If hon members have any doubts that we have not been quite wide awake about this let me say that that is incorrect. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, I shall rise tomorrow some time to reply.

Mr Chairman, when an excellent editorial on education in today’s Cape Times appeared, I gathered that the readers of the Cape Times must have gained the impression that the House of Delegates is debating the Vote of the Department of Education and Culture. I should like to read parts of this editorial headed “Advances in Black education”:

That is accepted by the hon the State President and he has left it to the Committee of Education Ministers to implement this decision. The editorial goes on as follows:

To a certain extent this House has played a role in this achievement and in this progress towards finding equality in education in this country.

I very briefly studied the speech for the hon member for Reservoir Hills yesterday. He made reference to the findings of the attitude survey of the HSRC and to a certain conclusion relating to the running of our education where there is definitely an improvement from 1985 to 1986 and 1986 to 1987. His reference to the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council I treat with the contempt it deserves and I do not want to waste any energy dealing with that.

However, my colleague the hon the Minister of Education and Culture gave us the teacherpopulation ratio in the secondary and primary schools, which has improved from last year to this year. That is improvement which speaks volumes for our education. The hon member for Reservoir Hills made a comparison and some people in this country believe that the fight for equality means becoming equal to Whites. Therefore one does not compare the other areas where there is inequality in this country. Let us not fight to bring the pupil Teacher ratio to the level of that of the Whites. The hon the Minister of Education and Culture very clearly indicated that those responsible for the drawing up of the Sanep formula have taken into consideration what the country can afford to bring about a uniform pupil:teacher ratio for all education in this country; namely 1:25 in secondary schools and 1:30 in primary schools. Let us be concerned about the situation in Black schools, where the teacher:pupil ratio is 1:45.

If this country is going to have stability and wants future security, we must be prepared to pay the price and help bring about improvements in the area where the suffering has been the greatest. That is why, when we satisfy ourselves beyond all reasonable doubt that the Fiscus cannot afford any more, the equality must be reached within the constraints of the present financial restrictions. That is why I say that the belts have to be tightened, as we have already done. That is why I said yesterday in this House that that formula is not an own affairs formula, but it is designed to bring about improvement in the area where improvement is necessary. That is where this House last year did, like the Cape Times does today, laud the improvement in Black education. As we said in this House, there is a price-tag to reform.

Mr Chairman, is the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council prepared to take a question?

Mr Chairman, I will take a question at the end of my speech.

There is a price we have to pay for reform. We were a favoured group in this country, and if we want to bring the pupil:teacher ratio down in Black education, then the pupil:teacher ratio in White and Indian education will have to increase. It will have to go from 1:18 or 1:19 up to 1:25 for secondary schools and 1:30 for primary schools. There is no other way one can achieve equality in education in this country.

Let nobody make a philosophical speech like the hon member for Reservoir Hills did, comparing the pupil:teacher ratio in White schools with that of Indian schools only. That hon member made reference to the HSRC. I still maintain that the attitude of the Indian community towards the running of Indian education has become more positive since last year. In this respect I would like to compliment the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition for the positive comments he has made. Where he did express reservations, this was done with dignity and decorum.

I want to say without any fear of contradiction that persons in responsible positions have to take decisions that please people or displease them. I know how the senior officials in the Department of Education feel for the people. There was an era in Indian education when icy winds blew over our schools. There was a time when even those in the SA Indian Council did not utter a word at a time when they served under their former masters because they believed in the rightness of whiteness. When an Indian implements the same rules with relaxation, he must go. When an Indian has only to sign a letter because that is his responsibility, he must go. He is responsible and answerable. I want to say as the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council of the House of Delegates that I am finally responsible for everything. [Interjections.]

We are administering an education department in regard to which we are praised. The Black education departments send their teachers and their pupils to our institutions to learn.

What about the statements of the hon member for Umzinto?

I disagree with the hon member for Umzinto. The executive committee of the Natal Provincial Administration once had to take a decision to send a circular to all the politicians in the Provincial Council not to receive any representations relating to teachers and their individual problems. All the leaders of the political parties in this House will most probably have to get together one day to lay down the responsibilities of a member of Parliament.

There is a section in the legislation on Indian education that we were not used to before 20 August 1984. It allowed a teacher to go to his MP but there were certain dividing lines. One does not go to an MP for promotion or for favours. Only the department and the Minister know what type of representations they receive.

The feeling is that if one cannot do everything, one is a bad man. One has to jump to attention when representations are made. I want to say that this is not fair. I said yesterday that one may criticise, but one should not criticise with vengeance and venom. Let us examine what role we are playing in inter-group relations as far as education in this country is concerned. Hon members on this side of the House have shown tremendous understanding that the Budget had to be pruned. As I said, reform has a price tag. Black education is advancing in this country, and we are proud of it.

We do not only play a role in the Cabinet or in the Cabinet Committees. An excellent role is also being played in the Ministers’ committee of education, at which education Ministers of the national states are also present and demanding their fair share. In spite of that, the hon the Minister of Education and Culture in our House received a good share.

I do not want hon members to compare apples with pears. Let us not compare the financial allocation for all universities and then say this is the allocation for the Whites, and this is the allocation for education for the House of Assembly. Can one say that UCT is a White university and that it is a House of Assembly expenditure or a White expenditure? However, it is reflected in the budget of the Administration: House of Assembly. Likewise, let us look at the number of non-Whites in Natal who attend other universities in this country. Education is a general affair so let us not gain the mistaken impression that White education is receiving more money.

Let us compare the money allocated for primary and secondary schools in White education in the past three years.

They receive R500 more per capita.

We accept that they receive more per capita, but the per capita difference in primary and secondary education has dropped drastically.

[Inaudible.]

That is history. We have to fight that on all fronts. [Interjections.] However, what I want to say is that in addition to this role we are in touch with Black educationists. Look at the role played by the department in our college of education and the visits by Black education departments, especially teacher trainees and the role our department is playing in fostering intergroup relationships in this country.

I want to come back to a statement made by the hon member for Cavendish yesterday. If one were to ask anyone in this world where the Holocaust took place they would answer that it took place in Germany.

What about the Black Hole of Calcutta!

When a member of this House says that what took place at the University of Durban-Westville was a holocaust, it is a shameful statement.

That is your perception.

We condemn that statement because it can be misinterpreted and misunderstood. I hope the media report that I have condemned this statement. What words were uttered after the words “the recent holocaust amongst Indian and Black students should not be seen”? Whatever unrest incidents took place between Indian and Black students at the university, we disassociate ourselves from that statement made by the hon member for Cavendish, and I express the hope that he will rise tomorrow to agree with me that in a moment of being carried away he used the wrong word.

Yet you called upon him to become the Minister of Education.

That is the kind of bait and divisive tactics we will not fall for. All my carrots are in the deep-freeze. The hon members can visit my house to check.

Progress reported and leave asked to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.