Mr Speaker, I move:

Mr Speaker, I rise in particular because the report of the select committee deals with an hon member of my party, the hon member for Sandton, who is unfortunately out of town this afternoon, and therefore not capable of being present here.

Allow me to say at the outset that the PFP will support the adoption of this report of the select committee on which the hon member for Yeoville sat as a member of the PFP.

There are a few comments I should like to make, Sir. First of all, we have taken note of the judicial approach which was adopted by the members of the select committee when they produced their report. It appears to us that they placed the interests of Parliament as an institution above the interests of the political parties to which they belong. In these days of intense political in-fighting it is reassuring to know that MPs, on appropriate occasions, can adopt a judicial rather than a partisan approach in relation to a matter such as this.

In particular, Sir, I want to pay a tribute to the chairman of the select committee, the hon member for Mossel Bay, and, if I might say so, also to the hon member for Yeoville. I believe the hon member made a very considerable contribution to the deliberations of the select committee, taking all the circumstances into account. Therefore I want to record my appreciation of the work done by the hon member for Yeoville and by the hon member for Mossel Bay.

There are three specific observations arising out of the report that I should like to make and to put on record.

The first is that the committee was appointed and charged with enquiring into a breach of privilege allegedly committed by the hon member for Sandton, Mr Dalling. For the reasons given in the report, the select committee did not find that Mr Dalling had in fact committed what would have been a very serious offence, namely the offence of a breach of privilege. It did not find that he had been guilty of that offence.

Secondly, the committee did not consider and neither did it adjudicate in any way on the content of the specific allegations made by Mr Dalling during the course of the debate in this House on 21 May.

Thirdly, the select committee did find that Mr Dalling had failed to abide by and had acted in conflict with an established and recognised parliamentary practice.

We take note of this finding and we believe that the report of the select committee has certainly focused the attention of members upon this parliamentary practice. It is an important one, and, as a result of its findings, we would be very surprised if that particular convention was not considered, regarded and acted upon by all members in future.

It is against this background of our observations and our high regard for the conventions of Parliament that we will support the adoption of this report.

Mr Speaker, allow me to say at the outset that it was an honour and a privilege to be chairman of this select committee. It was a stimulating and illuminating experience. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank all hon members who were in the committee for their co-operation and support.

The committee comprised members of the legal profession. Experience teaches us that when a committee is made up of such people, that committee can sometimes degenerate into endless arguments on technical points, such as the proverbial debate concerning the number of angels that can stand on the point of a needle. [Interjections.]

This committee also initially devoted much time to the discussion of technical points, hence the fact that the committee met a total of 13 times in order to deliberate and to reflect upon the matter. It should be mentioned to the committee’s credit, however, that its members eventually succeeded in getting over these technical differences and seeing eye to eye. I am very grateful to the members of the committee for that.

†I thank the hon member for Sea Point and the PFP for their support of the adoption of the report.

*As the hon member for Sea Point correctly said, the committee resisted the temptation to move outside the limitations of its brief. On the contrary, the committee kept strictly to the limitations of its brief. For example, it did not go into the truth or otherwise of the allegations which the hon member for Sandton made on the occasion in question, in spite of the fact that Judge President Munnik, among others, was willing to testify before the committee on the truth or otherwise of the allegations made.

The committee’s point of departure was that its function was to consider the question of a possible breach of the privilege enjoyed by Parliament and members of Parliament, and not to try to protect anyone or to allow any considerations to apply other than the interests of Parliament and members of Parliament.

The committee’s task, as mentioned in the report, was made considerably more difficult by a lack of legal rules, rules of procedure or precedents which had a direct bearing on the subject and facts of the committee’s investigation. This does not mean that there is a lack of precedents and legal rules on privilege in general—there are extensive precedents in that regard—but there is a lack in respect of privilege which involves facts similar to those which applied to the subject under discussion. The committee therefore had to let itself be guided by and rely on general legal rules, precedents and customs, and try to apply them, by way of analogy, to the facts under discussion. In these circumstances, the committee could not do otherwise than come to the conclusion and make the recommendation contained in the report.

†I want to emphasise that the committee was very conscious throughout its proceedings of the fact that it was acting in a quasi-judicial capacity. This body, consisting of the colleagues and peers of the hon member for Sandton, did not sit as his prosecutors or persecutors or even in judgement over him; it was a body with the duty towards Parliament of examining the actions of a colleague and, in due course, reporting its finding to this House.

In this spirit, and with due understanding and compassion, the committee endeavoured to fulfill its duty towards Parliament.

*It is with confidence that I ask the House to accept the committee’s report in this spirit and in this light.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Official Opposition, I should like to support the adoption of this report.

I should like to add that it was a particular pleasure to serve in this committee, and to discover that all three political parties represented on it have nothing but the highest regard for our judiciary. I should like to assure hon members, as well as the Hon Mr Justice Munnik, that no reflection was cast upon him in his judicial capacity. We should also like to request that in future, as far as judges are concerned, the practice be maintained, that they should not be criticised except by way of a substantive motion.

It has come to our knowledge that a bomb explosion has occurred in Krugersdorp. Certain members of the security forces have lost their lives and others have been injured—members of the public too, including women and children. On behalf of the Official Opposition I should like to express our condolences with the next of kin of the deceased and wish the injured a speedy recovery. We want to express our encouragement to the hon the Minister of Law and Order and the police, and we hope that these villains will be brought to book as rapidly as possible.

Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House thank the Official Opposition for their support for this report.

As the chairman indicated, there were, in fact, many problems with this report. The main issue was whether the breach of a rule of procedure entailed simultaneous breach of privilege. Various views were held on that point by various members of the committee. The question of whether the judge sat as a commissioner or as a judge was also raised. These problems were all identified and effectively solved in a most reasonable manner by the committee under the competent guidance of the chairman. It is therefore also a privilege for us on this side of the House to support the adoption of the report.

Mr Speaker, I think we are unanimous about the results of this committee’s deliberations, viz that respect and deference for parliamentary practices have been reconfirmed. It has been confirmed once again that we adhere to conventions of value and significance which are applicable to our parliamentary procedures and specifically to this House.

The basic mutual decency of members, but also in particular of members in respect of the personality and person of a judge—who cannot be present here himself—has therefore triumphed. The House of Assembly has reconfirmed that certain rules should be respected in debate.

One might say that there is complete freedom of speech in Parliament, or in the House of Assembly. You often intervene, however, Sir, when unparliamentary expressions are used, and from time to time you give rulings which are respected and written into the book of rules of this Parliament without legislation having to be passed in this regard.

Without wanting to sound prescriptive, we cannot but refer to what Erskine May said about the matter:

It is this spirit which gave rise to the convention that a member has to submit a substantive motion when discussing a judge of the Supreme Court in his judicial capacity, or in respect of his honour and personal conduct. It is this very spirit.

There is also a fundamental reason for the development of this practice. Politically there is a fundamental, sound reason for this. The authority of the State rests on three legs—the executive authority, the legislative authority and the judicial authority. This authority, the judicial authority, is the embodiment of the State’s authority and capacity to exercise State authority and enforce it in the final instance, as it were. A judge is the bearer of this authority. We as the legislative body should therefore have the necessary respect for the judiciary and should deal with procedures at which a judge is present in a special manner. As this report has confirmed, that special manner is by submitting a substantive motion. By doing so, we acknowledge the independent status of the Supreme Court.

I come back to the three legs of State authority. If one appears before a bench, one is entitled to legal representation and one’s case is heard before the judge—this applies to every ordinary citizen—only after certain preceding procedures have taken place, enabling one to prepare one’s case.

Imagine, Sir, a judge, whom we have granted the right to interpret our legislation, being discussed without notice in this House! Surely doing that would be an assault on the other leg of our State authority; in fact, there would be chaos if we could debate every finding across the floor of this House by involving the judge’s person or personal conduct in any other activity which can be related to his capacity as a judge.

Today, therefore, we have set a seal on the acknowledgement of the separation of our respective authoritative institutions which go to make up the State. I want to put it as follows: The executive authority grants our judiciary and courts physical protection. We do so by means of a police presence, but also by means of other protective measures.

It is in this spirit that we express ourselves most strongly opposed to what happened in Krugersdorp today, when a car bomb was planted in a cowardly way. To do what? No argument was won. Nothing was proved. In fact, these faceless criminals proved that they wanted to kill and mutilate people, no matter what their colour. We as the executive authority say we shall continue to protect our courts, at whom such misdeeds are aimed.

If this is true of the executive authority, surely the legislative authority must also protect the judicial authority. How can it do so other than by adhering to a specific procedure, as is proposed by the committee? The courts protect our rights, and consequently the courts are entitled to ask us to protect their judges in an exclusive, particular way.

That is the one leg of the report. The other deals with the main question put to the committee, viz whether a case can be made out for breach of privilege—yes or no. In this respect I differ slightly with the hon member for Sea Point. The hon member for Sea Point created the impression that the committee had found that the hon member for Sandton was not guilty of breach of privilege. The fact is—I want this placed on record—that the committee made no finding in this connection.

That is what he said.

The committee therefore did not find the hon member for Sandton either guilty or innocent. Why was that the case? The committee motivated its finding very comprehensively. The hon member for Mossel Bay—I have great appreciation for his excellent chairmanship and the excellent contribution he made a moment ago—summarised and explained this very concisely, saying that as a result of developments in our times, we are eventually being confronted by a matter which is not clear-cut. We have practices that we have taken over from other systems, which have to be cleared up and regulated. The committee, when we look at this in retrospect, acted quite correctly in recommending that there be proper regulation of such bodies and practices.

I want to give the hon member for Yeoville credit for the clarity he displays from time to time, because he also dealt with this point during the debate.

He indicated that we were dealing with two matters, one of which was a transgression of a procedural rule and the other a matter of breach of privilege. The procedural rule has been dealt with, the committee has made a recommendation and we have proposed that it be accepted. The hon member separated the question of breach of privilege from this and presented the House with a very clear picture in this respect. I want to give him credit for being correct in his analysis.

With reference to the question of our acceptance of the report, it is logical that we shall give notice of a motion which we shall introduce on Monday, if possible; if not, on another appropriate day.

Order! I want to interrupt the hon the Minister on this point. He can adopt one of two procedures. In the course of his speech he can request and, if possible, obtain the permission of the House to introduce the motion today. Otherwise he must introduce the motion formally on Monday.

Thank you very much for your guidance, Mr Speaker. In view of the committee’s recommendation, and on the assumption that the House will adopt the report, I request that the House grant me permission to give notice that I shall introduce a motion on Monday.

Mr Speaker, we have no knowledge of anything at all. We are under the impression that there was an arrangement in terms of which this report would have been considered and adopted, and that that was all that would have taken place. Neither the leaders nor the Whips nor anyone on our side had any knowledge that the hon the Minister was going to do anything else. As a matter of fact, it is rather a surprise to us. With great respect, I think the ordinary rules should be followed and that, if not, we should object. We do not know what is in the notice, so I think we should be given the ordinary notice according to the normal procedure.

The motion follows the words of the report. If the hon member for Yeoville is not inclined to support my request that I give notice of the motion now, I shall merely request that we submit the motion at a later stage.

Order! Will the hon the Minister give formal notice of the motion on Monday?

I then support the motion that the report be adopted.

Order! The other motion the hon the Minister had in mind will then be held over and he will give formal notice of this motion on Monday. Is that correct?

That is the idea, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, it was not my intention to participate in this debate because of the circumstances which I outlined a moment ago. I believed there was complete consensus among us as to what was going to happen today. We were under the impression that all that was going to happen, was that we would consider the report, adopt it and that there would actually be a minimum of debate. I think hon members of the committee on all sides of the House will confirm that that is what actually took place. I would imagine that the hon members of the CP cut short what they might have wanted to say because of that understanding. I think therefore it is unbecoming—if I may use the term—to try to use the debate now for something contrary to the understanding which we had at the time.

I have no problem with the hon member of the CP who raised the issue of the bomb blast in Krugersdorp. I want to associate myself with condemning that action. I want to say I think it is a dastardly, cowardly act of which any person of morality will disapprove. We in South Africa need to ensure that everything is done without violence, without bloodshed, without killing people. As far as we are concerned, we condemn these terrorist acts. When I say that, I mean it. I believe we all need to associate ourselves with it.

I do not want the wrong impression to be created—that that issue has anything to do with this debate. I think the hon member who raised it, raised it because it was the first opportunity of having a debate in this House. I think my leader, the hon member for Sea Point, did not raise it because he thought it would not be in order to raise it. I just want to get it clear that the two things have nothing to do with each other. Mr Speaker, you have granted an indulgence to people to raise it, and I think quite correctly because it is the kind of dastardly thing that needs to be condemned publicly at the first opportunity. However, I do not want there to be an association, in the eyes of the public, between what we are debating as a motion and that condemnation. The two things are, I think, quite separate. Therefore, I want to leave the question of the condemnation of this act. I have made our position clear and I want to leave it at that.

In regard to the actual proposals, as the hon member for Sea Point indicated, we support the adoption of the report. However, we need to make a couple of things quite clear, particularly in view of the intervention of the hon the Minister of Justice. There was no finding by the committee on the question of a breach of privilege. Every member of that committee is aware of that and the report makes it quite clear. As far as I am concerned if there is no finding the person concerned is not guilty of the offence, in the same way as it would be in a court of law. That is how this has turned out. I think we must not allow this to be obscured, because one of the things that has happened in the media—I am talking about some cases, not all of them—is that they have not been able to read the report accurately. They have, in fact, created the wrong impression as to what the finding of the committee was.

Secondly, I think it is quite clear that insofar as the committee was concerned, it did not come to any conclusion either on a very important issue as to whether the individual in acting as a commissioner acted purely qua commissioner or also acted as a judge in so doing. With regard to that there was also no finding. We left that alone as well. Views have been expressed as to the desirability or otherwise of judges being involved as commissioners in matters which are politically sensitive. I do not express any opinion on it. I merely say that we did not deal with it.

I want to say one last word on this issue. The question of a breach of privilege of Parliament is a very important matter. It is a fundamental matter. Parliamentary privilege is something of which every hon member of this House should be jealous. It is extremely important that we should distinguish between unparliamentary language or breach of a convention or breach of the rules and a breach of privilege, because the breach of privilege goes to the very root of the parliamentary institution. It is something which in normal circumstances is deserving of extreme sanction when it occurs. Therefore, we need to be careful in our conduct—when I use the words “we” and “our own conduct” I am using a broad term to include us all—to respect the privilege of Parliament and the institution of Parliament. If we do not do so then we cannot expect the outside world to do so. We need to set an example in regard to how we respect this institution. If we set that example then we ourselves will be giving the status to this legislative body which it deserves.

That is why I am happy that we were able to come to a consensus. We support this proposal.

Question agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.

Mr Speaker, I move:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

1. (1) the Ministers’ Council of the House of Representatives;
2. (2) the officials of the Administration: House of Representatives;
3. (3) the security forces;
4. (4) local community groups; and
5. (5) the State President and his Cabinet Committee.

Before I commence my argument this afternoon, let me say that I find it strange, when discussing a matter such as this, a matter in which our people at large have an intense interest, because when all is said and done they are the ones who are seriously affected by it, that not a single hon member of the Official Opposition is present here this afternoon. It reminds one of the motion moved by the hon member for Bishop Lavis the other day, when virtually the same thing happened.

The Official Opposition did not want the motion of the hon member for Bishop Lavis to be moved and discussed. This attests to a lack of responsibility, and hon members in the Official Opposition do not actually know why they are here.

After one whole month the floods rage on, with the mighty rivers of South Africa still taking their toll. Mopping-up operations have already started along the banks of the rivers. Now it seems as if the people—particularly in the lower Orange River area—must again prepare to evacuate their homes. A report in Die Burger today states:

One has to be in such a situation before one can have some understanding of the ramifications.

†People who have not yet experienced the traumatic effect of floods, will not know exactly how it feels. There are many things in life of which one can determine what the end result would be. However, when it comes to floods, nobody can determine the end result. One can merely take certain precautions and hope for the best.

*During the past month South Africa has been shaken by heart-rending scenes depicted on our TV screens. They were also described in our daily newspapers or experienced by people living along the banks of the rivers. In the midst of a crippling drought in the North-West, the children in the fields had to seek shelter against the raging waters. Those living along the banks of the river had to gaze disconsolately upon a mighty force of nature which draws no distinction between the wealthy and the poor, the owners or the sharecroppers.

†There is truth in the saying that God always forgives, that man sometimes forgives, but that nature never forgives.

*In scorching sunlight houses were evacuated in expectation of the raging waters. One day a family living on the banks of the river were having breakfast for the last time in the garden of their home, their showpiece on the banks of the river. A reporter visiting the house took a lovely photograph of the scene. A day later that family was swimming around in their kitchen.

South Africans have opened their hearts to their fellow human beings. They did so last year during the flood disaster in Natal, and they are also doing so this year. They donated millions of rand and bags full of clothing. Church parishes “adopted” communities in need of care. The head of the Blanke Afrikaanse Kerkgemeenskap in Suid-Afrika stated on television that God was speaking to us. The Red Cross and the Islamic Relief Association helped relieve the burden and the suffering. Ironically enough, certain politically-inclined church leaders, who were conspicuous by their absence in the flood-ravaged areas, got a gentle dousing in the street adjacent to Parliament.

South Africa remains a land of contrasts!

The security forces, in other words the Defence Force and the Police, still play a leading role— and have done so in the past—in the virtually ceaseless efforts to save human and animal life. All along the river banks there are Defence Force tents that are occupied by members of the local communities.

The hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development and his department have done wonderful work during the recent floods. Our farm-children in particular frequently do not get the necessary inoculations. One of the positive consequences of these floods has been that the children could be inoculated against several children’s diseases, cut off as they were from the outside world in the larger towns.

The hon the State President and his Cabinet Committee visited the areas personally, and I think the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development will inform us this afternoon of the progress that is being made. The Ministers’ Council of this House and the relevant officials have also given the matter their attention. I think the hon the Minister of the Budget will also devote some time to it this afternoon, telling us how they are dealing with matters.

Only yesterday the hon the Minister of Finance announced how much was to be spent in the relevant areas, but I want to make it clear that we in this House merely wish to express the hope that the distribution of funds will be done on a fair and equitable basis so that all population groups and communities receive their rightful share.

Mr Chairman, I think that you will hear personal evidence this afternoon from hon members on this side of the House who played a leading role in assisting their people. Hon members will hear how four-wheel-drive vehicles were used to reach the people who were trapped when all roads had been washed away. Hon members will hear how helicopters were used to supply essential foodstuffs to people who were trapped. Most probably we shall be hearing some humorous anec dotes, in spite of all the great heartache. After all, one characteristic of our people is that they can be joyful even in the midst of hardship.

I also want to express a personal word of thanks to the Defence Force. I want to thank the officer commanding Northern Cape, Brig Vos Benade, and his staff for the leading role they played in the Northern Cape and, in particular, at Ritchie. I telephoned him on Saturday, 20 February, on the eve of the great floods in the Northern Cape. I told him that the drenching rain had caused the Coloured houses at Ritchie to collapse, and asked him for assistance. Not only did he arrange for 50 tents to be pitched, but he and his wife drove to Ritchie in the rain to help us with the evacuation. That attests to someone who cares for his fellow-man.

Sir, can one ward off the heartache that threatens to overwhelm one upon discovering a family crouching in a corrugated iron hut; when one pushes open the door of a corrugated iron hut already surrounded by a massive expanse of water to find a despondent old couple staring speechlessly at one, with their children standing knee-deep in the water; people clinging to their meagre possessions and their food to the bitter end? Do hon members know what flashes through one’s mind on moving through a train with 15 coaches, a train filled with families who have had to leave the surrounding farms to seek shelter in a train to nowhere? Who knows when the flooded fields can be prepared again and when those people will have jobs again? How do the people live in the meantime? Who must look after them?

Let us have a look at the damage caused by the floods. I am going to refer to this briefly; I think my hon colleagues will elaborate on the damage done in their constituencies. At Ritchie 104 White houses, 280 Coloured houses and approximately 100 Black houses were flooded. The Krugersdrif Dam and the Kalkfontein Dam overflowed, causing the Modder River and the Riet River to come down in flood. These rivers converge at Ritchie, and in this case they reached the town virtually simultaneously.

That is one of the major reasons why so much damage was done. In order to normalise the situation at Ritchie—particularly as far as this House is concerned—Coloured housing in the town will definitely need some attention. Meetings have already been convened with members of both the local authority and the community, and recommendations have been submitted to the relevant Government department.

Delportshoop has also been seriously threatened. First the wall of the Vryburg Dam was breached, then the Harts River came down in flood, and now the wall of the Spitskop Dam is also threatening to collapse. Ultimately only 125 m of the earth-dam washed away. If the dam-wall had collapsed completely, however, Delportshoop would probably have been completely flooded. As a security measure 132 families and 12 farmsteads were evacuated. The farms south of the Spitskop Dam, however, were completely flooded, and it will take some considerable time to re-establish farming activities in that area. The question is still: What about the farm-workers? Where are they going to find refuge in times such as these?

At that stage the mighty Orange River still had to display its awesome power, and the small town of Douglas prepared itself for that eventuality. The Press grew hysterical about the future of those people. The security forces conveyed a total of 396 families in the town to safety, but the damage caused has nevertheless been considerable. I am certain that the hon member for Griqualand West will give hon members a comprehensive account of the scene that greeted him when he visited the town.

Sir, I do not need to say that a great deal of flood damage was done to the Coloured residential area of Breipaal. A ditch running through the urban area, for example, became a seething mass of water, and mobile units at the school were badly damaged. According to my colleague, some of the units were carried for a distance of more than 2 km. They looked like flattened matchboxes. The town’s electricity was also cut off. Water pumps broke down and fuel in the town had to be rationed. Shops were flooded and large-scale food shortages occurred. Food, and also certain medicines which were not available, had to be flown in by helicopter. Sir, we are a small people who do not simply accept things as they are, because although the water flowed through the classrooms, the school is already back in operation, according to the chief inspector. More flood-water is on the way, however.

At Prieska 365 families have been evacuated, but the effect of the flood was considerably less than was initially expected, chiefly because the water in the Vaal River and the Orange River did not converge at the same time. In the Vaalharts area considerable damage was done by soaking rains, and during a cloudburst approximately 100 mm fell within the space of two hours. In the Cape it rains for a week before 100 mm is recorded. To have so much rain in the space of two hours is, I am almost tempted to say, a hell of an experience. At Hartswater the rain that fell as a result of the cloudburst fell chiefly to the east, on high ground, resulting in the low-lying areas being flooded. The greatest damage was caused to the industrial area. The hospital, which by then had been evacuated, was not flooded. At Valspan— my colleague will elaborate on this at greater length—a completely different picture emerged when several hundred Coloured and Black families were left without a roof over their heads.

Sir, it is a strange situation that unfolded there because the houses of many of those people are constructed of a mixture of clay and white limestone. If it rains for two, three or four days on end, one sees their houses collapsing about them. The same thing happened at Longlands where an unpleasant racial incident reared its ugly head. I think the House will also be given full details about that.

In regard to housing in the Coloured area in the lower Upington region there was also a great deal of disruption. My hon colleagues will discuss that aspect. I know, for example, that this is a matter that our hon Minister of the Budget feels very strongly about. Agriculture in that area was also seriously affected. In many places summer crops were completely wiped out and, to a lesser extent, grape crops. The loss of agricultural topsoil is also a severe blow to the farmers—not only there, but everywhere along the banks of this river. There is nothing worse than that, Sir, because one can plant a new crop, but one cannot plant if one does not have topsoil.

It appears that the floods and flood-damage are becoming a permanent feature in the lives of South Africans. We must ask ourselves whether we really do adopt adequate preventive measures. Are our dams properly constructed? We must ask these questions, even if adequate precautionary measures have perhaps been taken. We must subject ourselves to self-scrutiny.

Is it not true that if communities had heeded the evacuation warnings, timely steps could have been taken to carry personal possessions to safety? Sir, it is a strange phenomenon, but even if people only have a few meagre possessions, they do not want to evacuate their homes— whether it be a corrugated iron shack, a mudwalled house or a good flat built of brick. They cling to what they have in those homes. At times, particularly during a flood disaster, they do so to their own detriment.

Should we not consider giving governmental institutions enough muscle to act in such circumstances?

†Should we not pass legislation to ensure that people are protected in such circumstances?

*In all these instances, during the past month, civil defence organisations were activated in time to do something about the situation. The question, however, is to what degree the community represented by this House participates in such civil defence organisations. Should we not become more involved?

Lastly I want to ask whether our own affairs department should not consider purchasing temporary structures to accommodate people directly affected by the floods. These structures can always be used again. It is a fact, after all, that people cannot live in those defence force tents forever. Nor can permanent accommodation be erected by the authorities overnight.

Let us pray, Sir, that the new floods which are threatening will not be as severe as the floods that hit us recently.

Mr Chairman, I express myself in favour of this extremely important motion. I want to associate myself with my hon colleague who thanked the Ministers’ Council, the official of the Administration: House of Representatives, the security forces, local community groups and the hon the State President and his Cabinet committee for their wonderful contribution in a time of crisis.

In spite of everything, however, once more a distinction was made between White and nonWhite groups. In this way the impression is created that all is well with everyone in these areas, but I should like to call the attention of hon members to farm labourers living along these river banks. All farm labourers are completely dependent upon the owners of the farms. The little groups of houses in which they lived have now washed away. How are those people going to be assisted?

I want to give hon members a brief look at towns in my constituency which have also fallen victim to the floods, but which are not included in the disaster fund. At Dedeben three houses were destroyed by floods. At Olifantshoek the access bridge between the town and the residential area washed away. At Postmasburg seven houses were destroyed. At Daniëlskuil 130 people had to be evacuated from their homes. Approximately 300 people have to be fed each day since they cannot return to their homes. I want to have Daniëlskuil, and all other towns ravaged by the floods, included as disaster areas since roads, government property and personal possessions have also been damaged. I am making this request for the following reasons: All roads constructed in these towns were paid for by the inhabitants. All the houses that were erected were paid for by the tenants. These people cannot be expected to repair their houses themselves. Many people have lost their personal possessions. They will most probably leave this area and move to neighbouring cities.

The flood-waters reached Daniëlskuil at eleven o’clock in the evening. No one knew that the town would be flooded at that time of night. By twelve o’clock that night there was complete chaos. Most of the people had lost everything they possessed. Today that is regarded as being nothing at all, but that nothing was of great value to them. It was everything they possessed. They lost it all. One old man lost all his chickens, turkeys and pigs. That was all he possessed. It was all washed away by the flood-waters. That is the “nothing” that is being referred to.

It is the Government’s duty to provide immediately for the basic needs of these townspeople.

Order! As I understand the motion, hon members are being asked to express their thanks and appreciation to the Ministers’ Council and other bodies. The hon member agreed with that, but now he is criticising these bodies. I would be glad if the hon member would please confine himself to the essence of the motion.

Mr Chairman, I should like to express my appreciation to the welfare organisations, but nevertheless there were elements which posed a threat, diseases for example, which I should like to bring to the attention of the relevant department.

Order! I understand what the hon member means, but the motion merely requires the hon member to express his appreciation to those bodies.

Mr Chairman … [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must not bother the hon member. They must allow him to proceed with his speech.

We express appreciation for everything that has been done, but on this occasion we are also highlighting certain bottlenecks, because we expected certain improvements to be introduced. If we look at the geographic position of the towns ravaged by the floods, we see that most of these areas were low-lying areas. One will have to look at the planning of these towns.

I therefore want to appeal to the Government to look at these areas which have not been included. There are numerous areas in which a great deal of damage has been done, and I think it only right to have a look at these areas too.

Mr Chairman, as background to my support for the motion I should like to sketch the position in various parts of the Free State. At the moment mopping-up operations are in full swing in the Free State after the floodwaters struck the once arid Free State plains with relentless force. At present our people are unremittingly engaged in restoring essential services disrupted by the floods. Those whose homes have been flooded are engaged in removing the mud and silt from their houses and flats.

The full extent of the flood damage has not yet been assessed. It will become clear once the Free State rivers have abated and water levels have returned to normal. The fact that in places water levels rose to 10 metres above the normal level is ancient history now. This wall of water swept away everything in its path. Giant trees snapped like matchsticks and were borne away by the raging flood-waters. Reinforced pipes beneath the bridges were bent or snapped off by the water. Rail and road networks in the Free State were severely disrupted. Railway lines collapsed under the flood-waters and many roads were closed to traffic. No fewer than seven railway lines had to be closed after portions of the line either washed away or were submerged.

In its latest report the AA states that the roads from Bloemfontein to Jagersfontein, Reddersburg, Petrusburg and Koffiefontein were closed to traffic. Similarly there are numerous roads between the towns, particularly those of the Northern Free State, where the latest floods occurred, which have either been partially or completely closed to traffic. The majority of the mainline routes are open, but according to the SATS’s regional office the train services, particularly those on the branch lines of this region, have been disrupted.

The flood-waters have cut a path of destruction which has left our people in the Free State, Whites, Blacks and Coloureds, thunderstruck. The once beautiful Free State plains, the sweeping lines broken here and there by a hill or a valley, have been turned into a desert of mud after silt and mud destroyed everything in sight. Where, some ten days ago, our gaze could still fall with pride on some well-known landmarks such as recreational areas and parks in our residential areas, there are only muddy sand-dunes to be seen.

I am talking about a panorama stretching from Luckhoff in the south to the Vaal River in the north. I am talking about an area which stretches from the Eastern Border region of the Free State and Lesotho to places such as Hartswater, Kimberley, Ritchie and Modder River in the west. I am not going to detail the mishaps in each and every town. I have already done so by way of a report I submitted to the hon the Minister. Permit me, however, to mention a few points once more.

These floods have resulted in a housing crisis developing once more, particularly in the Southern Free State. This problem will have to be addressed. Many of our people have been left without roofs over their heads, and I am not talking only about the Coloureds, but also about the Blacks and the Whites. People saw everything they have thus far saved, built up and worked hard for, disappearing in the raging flood-waters. Many of those items were things that money cannot buy, things with sentimental value. Many of them were destroyed. When I expressed sympathy with a White friend of mine at Wepener, he told me that there were certain things whose loss he could accept, but that there were other things of sentimental value to him which he had been unable to save because he had feared for his own life. That is what hurt him most. Those are the losses we are talking about here.

Permit me also to express the thanks of the Free State community, the Ministers’ Council, the Cabinet and the hon the State President this afternoon, to all in this wonderful, sunny country of ours who generously opened up their hearts and gave bountifully. We also thank everyone who prayed for us. South Africa’s people have shown once again that they care for one another and that our people, regardless of race, colour, culture or ethnic ties, hear one another’s cries for help and respond.

In conclusion I want to pay tribute this afternoon to the SA Defence Force and the members of the civil defence services. A great deal will still be said about the flood disaster in the future.

It will be recorded in the annals of this country’s history. I also think that history will make frequent reference to the deeds of heroism of individuals, particularly members of the Defence Force and Civil Defence, and to what they did for our people. Frequently, in situations posing a threat to their own lives, they had to hang out of helicopters to snatch people from the roofs of their homes because they were threatened and would have been swept away by the flood-waters. Frequently people and animals were saved before the flood-wave reached them. Many people were saved from certain death.

After the flood had passed, the Defence Force came in with helicopters to supply food, clothing and other assistance to people who were cut off from the rest of South Africa and could not obtain provisions. I want to express our sincere thanks to these people. I also want to express my sincere thanks to the hon the State President who did not hesitate to conduct a personal investigation into the prevailing conditions in those areas of ours hit by the flood-waters. It means a great deal to us. When the head of state of a country goes out of his way to look after the welfare of his people, it affects us deeply.

There are people held in high regard in the rest of the world, people who are seen and heard in the most distinguished circles when negative things are said about what is happening in South Africa. They are people who convey only negative aspects. I now ask: Where were they during the flood disaster? Why were they conspicuous by their absence? What have they done thus far when it comes to granting assistance to people who suffered losses in the various areas?

I want to ask the gentleman: What did he do? Or does he only want to be seen in the main street of Cape Town, in Adderley Street, where he walks around with his toga lodging pleas for matters of little or no importance. Sir, one knows one’s friends in one’s hour of need. The people of South Africa know their friends. They know who extended a helping hand when they found themselves in difficulties. I have referred to the people who are supposed to speak on behalf of those in difficulties. I am not, however, going to mention names. One asks oneself, however: Where were those people? Why have we heard nothing from them?

Sir, the so-called enemies of the Black man did not hesitate, in conditions that posed a threat to their own lives, to go and save what could be saved. The people of the Free State—Whites, Blacks and Coloureds—extend their sincere thanks to the Defence Force and to everyone involved in the rescue efforts. We are very grateful that those bodies did not hesitate in rushing our assistance when we were experiencing difficulties.

From several constituencies we have learned of the conditions that prevailed there. We are eternally grateful for what everyone has meant to our people in the hour of their greatest need. I have already expressed the gratitude of our Free State constituencies to the hon the State President, the hon the Minister and the members of the Cabinet who serve on the committee, for their help during the flood disaster.

It would also be remiss of me to neglect to express the gratitude of the Free State constituencies to the Administrator of the Free State and his five MECs today.

When I visited the flood-ravaged areas in the Free State, I heard in each town that the MECs were already there, that they would be coming the next day or that they had already done this or that. I do not think they would have been able to do that had it not been for instructions they had received from the administrator. We want to thank them sincerely for everything they have done for our people—and are still doing—whilst we are assessing the damage caused in the Free State.

As soon as the silt and mud have been cleared away and we can assess the damage, let us also think of those who have not had proper housing—people who, through no fault of their own, were living in corrugated iron shacks and makeshift houses; people caught in the jaws of a housing crisis. Let us think of them when we are engaged in the resettlement programme and the planning of new housing schemes. We must bear them in mind so that those individuals can also be properly accommodated in homes they can be proud of. I think that they should also be looked after. If we were to supply homes to the Blacks and Coloureds who lived as squatters in their towns and residential areas, we would win the hearts of those people, and then we would, with hope and courage, be able to build a South Africa which we are all striving to build up, and then peace would prevail in this country of ours. Let us think of them, too, so that provision is also made for them. Let us take the opportunity, Sir, by also making future provision for them now that they have nothing left, now that they are living there in tents.

Mr Chairman, we had no flood damage in my constituency—there was a great deal of rain damage, because my people normally live on the hillsides or far away on the plains; that is where they are housed. At least 20 houses in Holpan bowed to the force of the storms. Two school buildings were also destroyed. One can thank the Lord that this happened over a weekend. Approximately 50 metres from the school building, which collapsed, there is a White school with 12 classrooms and four pupils. Can we not make use of that school? I have made repeated appeals, last year and this year, for this school to be made available to our pupils. We must thank the Lord that this did not happen while classes were in progress. These children now have to catch the bus each day to attend school at Windsorton. That is an unnecessary expense to the taxpayer.

In Longlands there is a similar case of a White school not being utilised, while 219 of our pupils have to travel to Delportshoop each day. We asked for this school to be placed at our disposal while people were being housed in tents. That was done, but they were chucked out, boots and all, when the rain eased off. At the moment seven families are being housed in two tents.

We have also had another problem. The Defence Force placed 20 tents at our disposal at Rooikoppies, but they were pitched at a certain site. The people, however, wanted the tents pitched near their homes, but the tents were pitched approximately five kilometres from their flooded homes. Surely hon members can understand that one would prefer to have a tent pitched near one’s home so that one could protect the little one had left.

They simply went back the same evening and returned the tents. They sought shelter under the corrugated iron sheets of their kayas, but they protected the little they had. At Douglas the sewerage dam is situated on the opposite bank of the river. During the floods that dam overflowed and flooded the homes of my people. Higher up on the rise the stream cut the Coloured residential area in two, cutting those on the rise off from the outside world. Those below, of course, could not get up the hill either. The hon member for Diamant has already referred to Douglas. I shall therefore not elaborate.

I also want to quote to hon members a letter I received from the principal at Delportshoop. That person is also chairman of both the management committee and the Labour Party in the town. I quote from the letter:

And that is what happened:

Die vergadering:

Dit is my eerste kennismaking met GOS (Gesamentlike Organisasie Sentrum). Opnames van skades en behoeftes word daar ingedien deur:

Delportshoop
Waldeck’s Plant
Longlands (Beskadigde huise word foutiewelik as 181 ingedien)
Gong-Gong
Barkly-Wes
Pniel

Dit is duidelik uit die getalle beskadigde huise dat Longlands die grootste nood het. Die vergadering laat ons hoop opflikker omdat hulp nou gou verwag kan word.

Dinsdag 23.02.88: Intussen duur die reën aan-en-af voort terwyl meer huise val. Daar word besoek aan die gebied afgelê deur die volgende persone vir persoonlike waarneming:

1. 1. Dr I Essop (LP) en mnr J Scholtz (Ministeriele Verteenwoordiger)
2. 2. ’n Afvaardiging van die Departement van Gesondheidsdienste en Welsyn onder leiding van dr Khajee.

(Op Waldeck’s Plant is die inwoners intussen deur die Vaalrivier afgesny van die winkel en ’n dringende voedseltekort ontstaan.) Die eerste sigbare hulp daag by die skool (Delportshoop Primer) op in die vorm van voedsel geskenk deur die Northern Cape Regional Council of Churches onder leiding van mnr L B van Wyk, father Mabidja, mnr Vincent Majeng en mnr Zamani Dipeko.

Die voedsel word egter na Waldeck’s Plant gekanaliseer waar ’n vrou besig gevind word om hoendermielies stukkend te stamp om daarmee pap vir haar kinders te maak. Die ander inwoners het selfs nie eers dit nie.

Woensdag 24.02.88: Die eerste hulp van GOS in die vorm van 25 tente daag op. Drie tente is egter sonder dakke. Dit word dadelik uitgedeel maar die tekort is nog baie groot.

Meer huise het intussen geval.

A total of 260 houses collapsed. I quote further: Woensdag, 24.02.88: Die eerste hulp van GOS in die vorm van 25 tente daag op. Drie tente is egter sonder dakke. Dit word dadelik uitgedeel, maar die tekort is nog baie groot.

Op dieselfde dag word die volgende hoeveelheid voedsel deur ’n voertuig van die Weermag gebring …

Approximately 1 000 people had to have food, Sir, but very little was forthcoming. The letter states further:

And that is only in Longlands. I quote further:

That was for 1 000 people:

On the same afternoon a certain amount of food and clothing was distributed. I quote:

This is very important:

1. 1. Daar moet onder geen omstandighede direk geskakel word met enige instansie behalwe GOS nie; nie met dr Essop, minister Curry of die Rooikruis nie. Alle voorrade sal deur GOS gekoordineer word.
2. 2. Almal moet hul onderskeie skade en behoeftes gaan bepaal en by die GOS indien. Die informasie wat benodig word, is duidelik deur maj Meyer uiteengesit.
3. 3. Gong-Gong, Waldeck’s Plant en Longlands moet hul informasie by maj Potgieter (GOS Delportshoop SAP) indien.
   Vrydagaand, 26.02.88: Die lyste met die gevraagde informasie word tot laat in die nag opgestel.
   Saterdag, 27.02.88: Die lyste word deur my opgesom vanaf 8h00 tot 12h30, en aan maj Potgieter oorhandig—maar wat ’n ontnugtering!
   Hieronder volg ’n so na-aan-getroue weergawe van my gesprek met maj Potgieter by ons heel eerste ontmoeting op daardie dag …

Order! Although my sympathies lie with what the hon member is saying, I want to ask him please to stick to the motion.

Mr Chairman, in the mellowest wine there is a bitter tang!

Order! No, let us confine ourselves to the motion. The hon member may proceed.

Sir, I must thank the people, but you can see that one cannot say thank you for everything that happens. In the mellowest wine there is a bitter tang. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member must please confine himself to the motion and forget about the bitter tang.

I have almost finished, Sir. I come to the last paragraph:

Order! I am asking the hon member for the last time to come back to the motion before us.

These are members of the Defence Force; we thank them. In conclusion I quote:

Nou wat kom uit al hierdie dinge na vore?

1. 1. Blyk dit of GOS werklik hulp wil aanbied?
2. 2. Blyk dit of ons regtig met GOS en nie direk met ons LP’s, Ministers en die Rooikruis in sulke gevalle moet skakel nie?
3. 3. Moet die Weermag nie liewer die funksie vervul van vervoerder van die noodvoorrade en nie van administreerder daarvan nie? Dit skyn of daar ’n groot gaping tussen die Weermag en ons, Suid-Afrikaners, bestaan.

Mr Chairman, I support the motion.

Mr Chairman, let me mention the organisations I want to thank: The Ministers’ Council of the House of Representatives, the officials of the Administration: House of Representatives, the security forces, local community groups and the hon the State President and the Cabinet.

I come from a part of the world where we still have a day of prayer for rain. This year we did not pray for rain, but the rain came anyway. It rained so much that we eventually started to worry, but in spite of everything we are not going to pray for these rains to stop. We have learnt that in times of need people assist one another. In times of need one does not notice colour, because everyone is in trouble.

I appreciate the hon the State President who, with the hon the Minister of Health and Population Development, our Minister of Health Services and hon Deputy Ministers, immediately visited the flood-ravaged areas by helicopter. I happened to notice that only the hon the State President was wearing a coat; the other people were getting cold. This just shows how thoughtful our hon State President is. I therefore want to express my thanks to him in particular.

It is fun to sit in front of a television set and look at flood scenes, but it is another matter to be directly involved in them. My body ached for seven days after I had dug water furrows with a pickaxe. It is many years since I last handled a pick and shovel, but I had to do this to divert the water. When one was driving in one’s motorcar, it was as if one was travelling across the sea. One had no control over one’s vehicle. One becomes worried when such things happen to one.

The village in my area which was worst hit by floods was Britstown. The hon the Deputy Minister of Population Development and I visited it on 23 October 1987. The people there all complained that they were experiencing a shortage of water. On Saturday, 30 January 1988, the hon the Deputy Minister of Water Affairs and I also visited Britstown. The people again complained that they did not have water. Is it not ironic that it is that town which is now flooded? The rain even washed away the pavements. The stormwater drain system in the town was also washed away, because no one could foresee that such heavy rains would fall. The residents of the Coloured area are not used to so much water.

They became panic-stricken. Window panes were smashed and people tried to climb out of the windows. One had to see it to believe it. What is more, the three dams upstream from the town overflowed simultaneously. This caused a tremendous flood, so much so that we had to remove people from those houses and accommodate them in the community hall.

There one could see how people stand together, people of all colours. We accommodated those people there for eight days and it was simply astounding how food streamed in. The local businessmen gave generously. The municipality of that town intervened. The protection services intervened and Diakonale Dienste, a welfare organisation from Beaufort West, provided blankets for the people of Britstown. We must not forget to thank our traffic department either for the role which they played in the flood-ravaged areas. They prevented many tragedies, because they could warn us beforehand that certain roads were closed. All gravel roads to Britstown were washed away and these traffic officials warned motorists.

Approximately 10 or 15 kilometres outside Britstown lies the irrigation area known as Geselskraal. That dam which was empty two months ago overflowed and destroyed the lands. Low-water bridges and cement furrows were washed away. I hear the damage totals R1 million. Here again I want to express my thanks and appreciation to the water board of Geselskraal and the owners.

In Britstown churches worked together and ignored the colour bar. This again proved that we can live together in this country. I am asking those stone-throwers to look at what has been and is still being done in the rural areas. They must see that the White people, as they are called, are not as bad as they want us to believe they are; they are people who look after their fellow man who is in difficulties. I can carry on in this vein. When the water flooded classrooms in Richmond, the department’s people were there immediately. I can go through my constituency and give a list of these things.

The morning after the flood I telephoned all the towns to speak to the town clerks, but time and again I was told that the town clerk was in the Coloured area. He was making estimates. This proved to me that the council cares what happens to the people. I am thinking of Noupoort where water streamed through the houses. At eight o’clock in the morning the council was already estimating the damage. That is what I call humaneness! That is why I cannot stand here and complain this afternoon. I want to express my appreciation on behalf of my community.

In De Aar a ditch turned into a river overnight and one person lost his life. However, the municipality was on the scene immediately and started up its water pumps at once so that a subway which had been flooded and which was preventing our people from reaching the town at the other side, was open again within three hours. I want to thank them for their speedy action, because if they had not done this our people would have suffered, because they had to get to town. For that reason I again want to place on record my thanks to the hon the Minister of National Education, the Ministers’ Council of the House of Representatives and the State President, who did not send his Ministers but went himself.

Mr Chairman, I should like to draw attention to the fact that the Official Opposition is always absent when its people need it. The Official Opposition was conspicuous by its absence during this flood disaster. I do not know where they were, but someone said they had gone west (bokveld toe).

They have vanished without a trace (skoonveld)!

I suppose they have vanished without a trace. However, this Official Opposition is characterised by the fact that they are never where they should be. [Interjections.]

I am speaking in support of the motion as it appears on the Order Paper. It is with great compassion and sincere sympathy that I want to talk today about the losses suffered by the victims of this flood disaster. If one is a farmer one looks at the clouds hoping for an end to one’s problems. However, with this flood disaster which hit a large part of our country so unexpectedly, it was just the opposite. It was the clouds which were to have brought relief for the farmers and many others which suddenly destroyed everything the farmers and many other people owned within a matter of hours. Many people in the flood-ravaged areas of Natal, the Northern Free State, the Northern and North-Western Cape, are left with nothing today but the clothes they are wearing, because of the damage they suffered and because their homes, their possessions, their livestock and their lands have been washed away by the flood-waters.

The damage totals millions of rand. In some cases there was even loss of life, and that is why I am speaking compassionately about this flood disaster. It must feel strange to stand by helplessly and watch a lifetime of labour being destroyed within a few hours without being able to do anything about it. Our poor Coloured people on the farms in particular are dependent for their livelihood on work on the lands. The flood has also deprived them of their work. This is a dreadful state of affairs.

As if that is not enough, the people are also faced with health problems which can be caused by the polluted water. Diseases such as gastric fever, malaria or Congo Fever can reach epidemic proportions if people drink this polluted water. That is why we are grateful for the work of the Defence Force and other organisations to assist the people and to provide them with water and other necessities of life.

Today I want to tell the news media that in the north-west, between Augrabies and Alexander Bay, there are people who, although they did not get rain, have also suffered damage because of the floods. These people are part of the Republic of South Africa. I am surprised, therefore, that I have not heard about these people on television or in the newspapers. [Interjections.] The people living along the banks of the Orange River at Witbank, Garaganaap, Goodhouse, Henkriesmond, Vioolsdrift, Rooiwal, Modderdrift and the Richtersveld are also part of the Republic of South Africa. I therefore want to ask for these areas also to be considered disaster areas. People in Goodhouse in particular suffered big losses. I also want to ask for these areas to be considered flood-ravaged areas so that assistance can be given to the people there.

I am glad that the Ministers’ Council: House of Representatives has left no stone unturned to give assistance in the flood-ravaged areas. I also want to thank the security forces, local community groups and the hon the State President and his Cabinet Committee for their assistance. We also learnt with gratitude of the financial assistance for which provision has been made in the Budget, as announced by the hon the Minister of Finance. I hope that when assistance is given to the people affected by the floods, the memory of wonderful gestures they witnessed in their time of need will not be erased by injudicious and unfair allocations. For that reason I humbly request that all persons affected by the floods should be thought of as South Africans in need for the purposes of the rendering of assistance.

Mr Chairman, the saga of the floods which recently struck so many people in our country so tragically, will be remembered long after we have departed from the scene. It has struck the hearts of so many of our countrymen, irrespective of race, colour or creed, and it would be unkind of me, as a member of the opposition, to use this opportunity to throw political stones or to catch political flies.

It is therefore with pleasure that I rise to speak in support of this motion of the hon member for Diamant. [Interjections.] This House expresses its appreciation to so many who have played such a vital and humane role in coming to the aid of so many. [Interjections.]

It has once again been proved that death, sorrow and tragedy, which came in the wake of the floods, have no social, racial or colour barriers. Many of our people have been affected and the whole nation has rallied round to express its shock and sympathy to those affected. Today I again wish to remember the homeless, fatherless, motherless, dead, injured and maimed. My first reaction, as one living away from the affected areas, was to lift up my eyes to the hills and thank almighty God that those of us in the South Western Cape, where I reside with my family, had not been struck by this tragedy. That very day we immediately committed in prayer those many unfortunate countrymen, irrespective of colour, race or creed, to the grace and help of almighty God. That was my first reaction. [Interjections.]

We were grateful to learn through the media that so many of our countrymen had opened their hearts as well as their purses to those who were affected. Today we could compile an endless list of thanks, but we would surely fail if we remained silent in this Chamber by not expressing a special word of thanks to those listed in the motion. I therefore wish to place on record our appreciation and thanks to the hon the State President and his Cabinet Committee for their vital role in involving the State at the highest level, and especially to the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development, who is present here today and whom I came to know as a member of the Standing Committee on Health and Welfare. Here we have a man not untouched by the feelings of those in their time of need. He is a man of integrity on whom we can rely to distribute fairly and honestly the donations or gifts in kind received by him and his department to all the sectors of the community affected. Of that I have no doubt because I know the hon the Minister will do his duty towards everyone who has been affected.

We also wish to thank the hon members of the Ministers’ Council of this House for their participation, especially for attending to the needs and losses of the poorer sector of our community. [Interjections.] In particular, I trust that our hon Ministers in this Chamber responsible for housing, health and welfare will dig into their budgets and their resources to meet those people’s most urgent need. For what they have done to date, in visiting those areas and assessing damage, we express our heartfelt thanks.

We also look today to the hon the Minister of the Budget, who will table his budget in this House very soon. We look to him to give us a greater cause for joy next week when he tables his budget.

We trust that more will come from that quarter to help those in their moment of need, especially in the poorer sectors of the community.

The valiant and tireless role played by the security forces in rushing to the aid of so many must not go unnoticed. To the hon the Minister, and the department concerned, and to the personnel who sometimes worked around the clock to save precious lives, we also want to express our gratitude.

The great acts of charity and unity by members of the various local communities in assisting one another in their moment of need is a ray of hope for South Africa. It is a lesson for all of us that in a moment of national tragedy, regardless of race, colour or creed, there are still people who care about the needs, suffering, fates and misfortunes of other people. This was indelibly impressed upon us during this national tragedy.

We trust that all the affected areas will soon be restored to normality and that many of those unfortunate people may still benefit from the silver lining which came with the clouds.

In closing, I look again to the hon the Minister and his department for a redoubled assurance today that there will be a fair distribution of funds and gifts to all the sectors of the community affected by this national tragedy.

Mr Chairman, I speak in support of the motion and I want to begin by asking hon members to be patient with me. I want to express my sincere thanks to the people involved and for this reason it is necessary to sketch a picture of how they became involved.

In the first place the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council did not hesitate for a moment in permitting me to absent myself from this House on certain days so that I could make a personal contribution in my constituency on behalf of the House. This created an opportunity to show the world the worth of the people in the LP. It is true that the sweetest wine has a touch of bitterness, and sometimes I get a bit jealous when I see how often reference is made to Upington, when Keimoes is mentioned so seldom. Upington is situated on a hill, while the river flows past below the town. My voters live in the heart of the river on islands which are surrounded by water at all times, whether there is a flood or not. I want to request that more attention be given to the areas that are suffering most.

†My first undertaking when I arrived in Keimoes was to make an overall assessment of the situation.

It was then that I discovered that not a single tent was available. I also discovered that there was no Coloured contact-man in that area. Coming back to the question of the tents, with the wonderful co-operation of the hon the Deputy Minister of Defence, to whom I appealed immediately, we had 200 tents within 24 hours. They were brought from Pretoria and the Bloemfontein district. I want to place on record our sincere gratitude to all who were involved in this regard. I thank the hon the Deputy Minister himself, his private secretary and his officials.

I also found it necessary to pay a personal visit to the islands while I could still get there. It was necessary to advise those people to leave and to seek safety on higher ground. It was necessary to tell them how to prepare themselves for the oncoming water because the river had already swollen by then. It was also necessary to tell them to stockpile supplies.

I want to thank the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture and certain officials and staff members from his department. They cleared a new school building, which had been erected at a cost of R1,8 million. They removed the doors and all the furniture and opened the windows so that the water could easily pass through the building. They transported the furniture and belongings of people living on the islands to safe places. Our sincere thanks go to them, and also to the residents for having helped one another. It was very good to see that other farmers came to the aid of women farmers. They brought their harvests to safety.

I want to mention a few people by name, such as Mr Van Wyk, Mr Bosshof, who is deputy director, Mr Desmond Smith, Mr Loubser, Mr Snyders and Mr Julius, who came from Mier to assist in transporting people and their belongings. My gratitude also goes to the town clerk, Mr Edwin Meyer, the treasurer, Mr Gouws, and to Mr Strauss. I also want to thank certain ladies, namely a White lady, Mrs Viviers, my own wife and the wife of Pastor Friedberg, who took the lead in preparing meals for people.

I wish to express a vote of thanks to the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council for allowing these people to use the kitchen of the hostel of our high school there.

*By Friday, 24 February, all the islands had been cut off from the outside world and one could reach these places only by helicopter. I want to express my sincere thanks to the Defence Force in this regard. They took me where I wanted to be. I was concerned about the school which was completely surrounded by water by this time. We stopped off at the various islands where people who are involved in the LP showed us by means of gestures that they were still alive.

When we reached Bloemsmond, the tents to which I referred had arrived. As one of the earlier speakers said, unless one has been involved in a flood before, one cannot know how people will react psychologically. There I saw how people act in an emergency. When they saw the tents, everyone rushed forward. Matters became very confused. People who did not know these White faces that they were seeing there reacted in different ways. I made the vice-chairman, Mr Jan Jooste, the “foreman” of the people at Bloemsmond. Not only do I want to thank this man; I also want to thank our women. I want to mention them by name: Mrs Emma Nel, Mrs Caroline Steenkamp, Mrs Griet van Wyk and Miss Poppie Steenkamp. These people were appointed by the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare, and they formed the welfare committee. These women had the well-being of the people at heart to such an extent that they personally assisted in pitching the tents. When the sun started setting, I saw that their hands were full of blisters.

By Saturday our people on the islands had been cut off completely from the outside world. There was also torrential rain, however, just before the hon the State President, the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development and the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture arrived there. The hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development will be able to tell hon members that unfortunately this storm made it impossible for the hon the State President and his party to reach Keimoes. They turned around at Kanoneiland and landed at Upington.

Our people were encouraged a great deal by the knowledge that they were there. We want to thank one and all sincerely. I want to single out the hon the State President for his personal encouragement and humanity. We know that he is a big man. He is not young any more, yet he left Cape Town at six o’clock that morning and spent the whole day visiting places that were under water with this committee. Someone said the hon the State President had been wise that afternoon, because he was wearing a coat. He was not all that wise when he got to Upington, however. The hon the Minister of Health Services was wearing a lumberjacket when he got there, but they found that Upington is not the Cape—one roasts there! It was not so wise to wear coats there. It speaks volumes for his humanity and caring heart, however, that our hon State President bent down to pick up a little girl who was running around there.

Our thanks go to the women who supplied 300 people with three meals every day. We also want to thank the Roman Catholic Church in Keimoes which immediately made flour to the value of R1 000 available to the people before food aid arrived.

By Monday, 29 February, I could visit the islands separately once again, thanks to the Defence Force. It was necessary to determine the need there, because the deluge on the Saturday had washed away many of the people’s food. We discovered that there was no baby food and that there was a shortage of medicine. We also discovered that there was a shortage of salt.

I request that we take notice of these things. When we supply people with food, we give them everything except salt and matches with which to make fires on which to cook the food, and that cost a man his life. One of the young men there, a married man, Mr Steenkamp, swam through the water with others to get hold of some matches, and it cost him his life.

Our thanks also go to the health inspector of the Kenhardt Divisional Council. This man travelled in the helicopter with me and as far as we went, he made notes of the shortages. Hon members should have seen the wonderful co-operation there. That same afternoon they went and dropped the things there had been a shortage of, like baby food and food, on the respective islands.

I also want to thank my own department. They supplied us with two-way radios. In this way we could remain in contact with people that could not easily be reached. We also discovered that day that the water had reached window-height at the school I mentioned.

The Defence Force was always willing to do what we requested. They landed the helicopter at the most impossible place on Bella Vista Island, where we fetched a little girl whose hand had been cut open like a pomegranate.

We picked up this little girl—Rita du Plessis— and took her to the doctor, and eventually she ended up in hospital. Here our thanks go to Col Jooste and Maj Meiring and the rest of the Defence Force, as well as Mr Snyman of Upington’s municipality.

We now come to something interesting, and I should like hon members to listen to this. That same Monday we found out that one of the hon opposition members, viz none other than the hon member for Macassar, had flown over that area. What I found so comical about the whole matter was that if one goes there to offer assistance, one looks for a contact, and in this case the contactman would have been the local MP. The hon member for Macassar succeeded in flying to Kakamas and back by helicopter, but all he saw was water. He could not even visit his own father-in-law. He did not even know whether or not he was still alive. He did everything in his power to avoid me so that he could come and say here that he had been there. It reminded me of the book written by Eric Rosenthal—They walk by Night—in which he speaks about the ghosts of the castle, etc.

He merely went for a joy ride!

Precisely!

I want to give hon members of this House the assurance that only hon members of the LP were actively involved in relief work in that area.

I want to conclude by referring to the damage that has been determined thus far. In the first place our people’s cotton harvests have been destroyed completely, and that is a big blow, Sir, because cotton does not yield the same harvest every year. This year our cotton was waist-high. It was beautiful, and a lot of it was flowering already.

Many vineyards have been washed away, especially the young vineyards; the older vineyards were silted up. Four houses washed away, and the roofs of three houses collapsed. We lost three people during this time, and in this connection I want to express my thanks to Col Smit of the Police. He was in control of a rubber dinghy and he risked his life to save others to such an extent that at one stage the helicopter had to go and look for him. It was a sea of water. Vineyards are supported by wire, and this wire had caught up one of the boat’s propellers and destroyed the engine completely.

I also want to appeal to the hon the Minister in respect of the need of the seasonal labourers, or the “loose labourers” as we call them.

The seasonal labourers are not paid by the farmers as the farm labourers who work constantly are. I have received reports of schoolchildren who have fainted at school because there was no food in their homes. These are the seasonal labourers’ children.

I want to ask the hon the Minister of National Health to use his influence so that the people can use the tents placed at their disposal for a longer period. Keimoes and Kakamas have been cut off from the outside world by the river once again. Last week’s rain washed away all the possessions—furniture, clothing, everything—belonging to one of our people. The people were moving in through the back door of their house when a new burst of water flowed in through the front door and they had to flee for their lives.

It has been impossible to determine the total flood damage in our district. We are concerned because the co-operatives no longer want to sell our people necessities on credit. They know the people will have no harvests, and unless a guarantee can be supplied, they are not prepared to supply seed or any other necessities on credit. I hope I can thank the hon the Minister of National Health in anticipation for the assurance that the people will receive such a guarantee from the committee.

In conclusion I want to thank the people in my area most sincerely for their humanity and for sacrifices that have known no colour. The critics often do not want to hear the truth, but I want to give the assurance in the House this afternoon that the majority of the farmers around Keimoes paid their farm labourers, even if they only came to sit and look at the water. It is necessary to have this put on record. There is something bad in the best of us, but there is also something good in the worst of us.

My prayer is that the wonderful spirit that has prevailed in Keimoes and from Kanoneiland to Kakamas will be the spirit in which we shall build a new South Africa.

Mr Chairman, it is a very great privilege for me to appear in this House today for the first time this year. It is a privilege not only because it is always a pleasure for me to appear here, but also a privilege to be able to support this private member’s motion of the hon member for Diamant and thank him for it.

When we discuss the flood disaster, it is only right that we think first of the 12 people who have lost their lives since 19 February as a result of the flood.

When we think in this House about those people who have lost their lives in the flood, we also think of their next-of-kin and of those people who have lost breadwinners, wives and children. The hon the Minister of the Budget referred to one such tragic case.

However, we must also say at once that we can be grateful to our Father in heaven that there was not greater loss of life. The reason why the loss of life was not that bad, is to be found in the timeous warning our people received that the flood was on its way.

I want to take this opportunity to make an announcement, namely that I shall recommend to the hon the State President that the following areas in the Cape be added to the existing list, and that the hon the State President will consider declaring these areas disaster areas as well. The areas are: Britstown, Carnarvon, De Aar, Fraserburg, Hopetown, Kenhardt, Kuruman—a district which, as hon members know, includes Dibeng and Olifantshoek; Namaqualand—which as hon members, including the hon member for Steinkopf, know, includes Garaganaap and Goodhouse; Philipstown, Postmasburg—which includes Daniëlskuil; Richmond, Victoria West and Vryburg. [Interjections.]

What about Kenhardt and Keimoes?

Kenhardt and Keimoes have already been included. The hon the Minister of the Budget has asked me about Keimoes. It has already been included.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank the hon members, particularly the hon members for Diamant, Southern Free State, Britstown, Steinkopf and Ottery, and the hon the Minister of the Budget, for their fine testimonials regarding the actions of the hon the State President and the special Cabinet Committee of which I am the chairman. As the hon the Minister of the Budget said, it was a tremendous physical exertion for the hon the State President to be on the go from early that morning and to visit the whole of the Southern Free State and the Northern Cape. He was deeply moved. When he and the committee arrived in Upington, we met the hon the Minister of the Budget there. By then he was dog-tired from working for his people in Keimoes. It was good to see him there. He received us there and brought us up to date with the tragic events. I thank the hon members for their words of thanks and encouragement to him and the other committee members.

It is important for us to inform hon members how this committee works, so that the hon members will know what is being done. However, before I get around to that, I want to tell the hon members that the hon the Minister of the Budget spoke very true words when he said that there was nothing which brought the people in a country together so, much as their being in difficulties together, or having to triumph over a disaster together or having to reach out their hands to one another, because the one is in the water and the other is on dry land, or the one is hungry and the other has food. If I have learnt one thing recently, since September last year when the rains fell in Natal, right through February up to now, it is that our people in South Africa stand together when there is a disaster: Black, White, Brown, Pink, Yellow and Blue.

It is a wonderful thing to see. I want to tell hon members that between 20 February and today we have already collected R10,5 million in cash for the disaster fund. This is a record for South Africa since it came into being. Between 21 September last year, when the Natal flood occurred, and 19 February of this year, we received R6,5 million from the people of South Africa. Now we have already received R10,5 million within a month. I sign all the letters sent out to those people who contribute something, and it is interesting that there are many contributions of 50 cents from Soweto, or R10 from Atlantis. However, there are also contributions of between R100 and R1 000 from Mitchell’s Plain and an amount of R250 000 from a well-known bank—the Reserve Bank—and a further R250 000 from the city council of Kempton Park. However, the largest part of this R10,5 million is made up of contributions of between R5 and R10. The population of the entire country has contributed, and that is what I find so wonderful.

We received food and clothing from everywhere in the entire country—more than we thought we would be able to transport at one stage. However, the Defence Force said: Here are our vehicles; we will do this free of charge. The SATS said: Here are our coaches; we will do this free of charge. This is wonderful co-operation and a wonderful team spirit. The hon the Deputy Minister of Population Development told me that he recently visited the constituency of Ceres—of course this is an important constituency for this House at the moment—and that a few farmers in that constituency had loaded a ten-ton truck with apples, pears and fruit juice and sent it to Kimberley, Douglas and surroundings. They paid for this themselves. I greatly appreciate this, and this afternoon I should like most sincerely to thank all the people in South Africa who gave so generously—cash, tinned food, baby food, clothing and blankets. I also want to tell them that they can rest assured that what they have given has shown the world that we in South Africa stand together and can triumph over a disaster. This afternoon I want to tell hon members in this House that we will not only relieve the distress which exists to the best of our ability, but that we will build up the infrastructure so that those areas can again be what they used to be.

Hon members referred to the Defence Force, and an important point to mention in this regard is that more than 950 people were rescued in emergency rescue operations by our security forces—the Defence Force as well as the Police. More than 850 people were rescued by helicopters—those birds, as the hon member said, that flew about and gave a helping hand. Up to now more than 250 000 tents have been used throughout the whole of the Free State and the Northern Cape. More than 12 000 loaves of bread, 450 kg of tinned food and 2 500 blankets have also been distributed. What is very important, and what hon members also referred to, is the following. Our first task was to constitute a technical team to investigate the damage to housing. The directive to this technical team of the Cabinet Committee was to determine the total extent of damage to housing and losses.

In the second place the committee must ensure that all matters in respect of the rendering of assistance to those persons adversely affected by the flood are addressed in a uniform manner from the budget for State aid and from the Disaster Relief Fund. It is very important for this to take place in a uniform manner. In the third place the squatting problem as a whole in the flood-ravaged areas must be investigated. In other words, this is the time to make relocations there. In the fourth place they must investigate ways, as well as the possible extent, of involving the private sector in the housing need guidance programme and the housing repair programme. We shall take a closer look at this report on 28 March.

It is very important to mention that there is also a technical committee for agriculture. This committee must determine the total extent of the damage and losses in the agricultural sphere. Secondly, it must co-ordinate the administration of claims made on the Treasury and the payment of claims according to applicable norms. Thirdly it must monitor and confirm the reconstruction of agriculture on individual farms, and report on this to the Cabinet Committee.

In Natal—in KwaZulu and Natal itself—we have already paid out R18 million from the disaster fund. The disaster fund forms are available in all the towns—both at police stations and from the town clerk. The disaster fund exists for those people who have suffered personal losses. It is controlled by an independent board, consisting of seven members from the private sector and five from the public sector. It is an independent board which deals with each case individually. I merely want to point out to hon members that these forms are sent first to the local committee, which takes a look at them, and then to the board.

Anyone who has suffered personal losses and is not insured can apply for assistance. The hon member mentioned a person who had lost his turkeys, chickens and pigs. This is where he can apply for assistance. An ex gratia payment is made; the replacement value is not paid. However, we must also make sure that every pig was not a stud pig, that every turkey was not a stud turkey and that every chicken was not a champion at the last show! [Interjections.] These things must be stated unequivocally.

As far as damage in respect of crop losses is concerned, the disaster fund can help, but the crop had to have been harvested, and no longer on the lands. The board can therefore help if the raisins or sultanas had, for example, already been harvested, but were washed away. As the hon the Minister of the Budget knows, the water caused great damage to hanepoot grapes in particular. Once a hanepoot grape has been under water for two days, it has had it. I think that sultanas last a little longer; I think about six days. [Interjections.] The hon the Minister of the Budget tells me that he knows about these things, and that sultanas do not last. The fact of the matter is that there was a great deal of damage, and that this disaster fund will be used for this.

The hon member for Diamant gave us a very fine review of the extent of the damage. He told us exactly what it looked like there. Earlier on the Orange River was referred to as the Big River (Grootrivier). When I flew over it it really looked like a big river (Grootrivier). There is no doubt about that. The hon member spoke very true words when he said that a disaster did not differentiate between the rich and the poor. That is true. He referred to the inoculations we could have given, and that was true.

He also referred to a fair dispensation. I quoted the directives of the Cabinet Committee to him, namely that it had to be fair. I am very grateful that he became so involved with Ritchie. According to what I have heard from Brigadier Benade, things are going very well there.

The hon member was right when he said we had to consider the farm worker. The hon the Minister of the Budget also mentioned this. Permanent farm workers, unlike casual workers, are paid by their people. Better houses will have to be built than those that are being built at the moment from clay and limestone. There are going to be more heavy rains, and if the house is not well-built, it is going to collapse again. We will have to build stronger houses.

The hon member made a very important point about topsoil. The water was not clear; it was full of topsoil. The hon the Minister of the Budget told me that at the moment land was very cheap in Keimoes. Apparently it costs R10 a ha. However, the hon the Minister said that if one bought land, one had to take possession of the land in Oranjemund. [Interjections.] Fertile topsoil has been lost. There is no doubt about that.

The hon member for Diamant asked important questions. He asked if we were taking adequate precautions. This is an important point. After the flood disaster in Natal we directed the Cabinet Committee to investigate the high-water marks along our rivers. Our people live too close to the rivers. Douglas, for example, will have to be replanned. Certain parts of Ladysmith will have to be replanned. As a matter of fact, a decision has already been taken to do this. We cannot afford to have a town flooded every couple of months.

The hon member also asked a question about our dams. The answer is “yes”, our dams are fine. If it had not been for the Verwoerd Dam and the P K le Roux Dam which could hold back the flood for a while, the Vaal and the Orange Rivers would possibly have hit Douglas, Upington and Keimoes at the same time. The hon member rightly remarked that the Spitskop Dam had given way. At least this gives us the opportunity to dredge it.

We never knew that the Bloemhof Dam would ever get so much water from the tributaries. The Bloemhof Dam has never received so much water in its history. When I telephoned the Brigadier the other day, he told me that the Bloemhof Dam was only 150% full. Can hon members imagine that? We were always grateful if it was only 120% full. However, we are monitoring the water level every couple of hours and according to the latest data it does not seem as if the flood-level in the Orange River is going to be higher than it was a couple of weeks ago.

I think the hon member for Diamant was quite right when he said that we should involve more Coloureds in civil defence. It is clear to me that we should have done this sooner, and we shall definitely look into this. The hon member also made a good suggestion regarding temporary housing.

The hon member for Northern Cape spoke about Dedeben, Olifantshoek, Postmasburg and Daniëlskuil. I have already told him that these areas have been declared disaster areas. I think the hon member will be able to go to bed happy tonight, and he can telephone his people and tell them that because of his persuasive speech they have now also been included.

The hon member for Southern Free State really speaks well. One can call the language he uses “lyrical realism”. It is really wonderful. I greatly appreciate this. The hon member gave a very clear exposition of the damage in the Southern Free State. He used a very fine descriptive phrase, namely “desert of mud”. That is true. Nothing is growing there except mud. That is really the case.

As I have already said, we are in the process of making surveys of damage to housing. The hon member was very flattering about the role of the civil defence and security forces. I want to thank the hon member for that. He also said very fine things about the hon the State President, who visited the disaster areas himself. I also want to thank the hon member for that. The hon member also conveyed his thanks to the Administrator. He rightly remarked that the Administrator had played a very important part.

The hon member’s proposal that we should take this opportunity to give the squatters, both Coloured and Black, good housing, is a very good suggestion. We shall look into this.

I am sorry that the hon member for Griqualand West’s experience of the JBC and the JOC differs so vastly from that the hon the Minister of the Budget. Whereas the hon the Minister could attest so wonderfully to the co-operation between Whites and Coloureds; between the Police, the Defence Force and all those involved, the hon member for Griqualand West had more than a drop of bitterness in his glass of wine. I should like to discuss this with him and see if we can put matters right.

What the hon member for Britstown said was true. He knows I have a great deal of sympathy for him because he comes from Britstown and he is also the chairman of the standing committee. It is true that one almost wants to hold a day of prayer to ask for the rain to stop, but let us not prescribe to Him who holds matters in His hand. Let us simply say that we accept everything with gratitude and that we then do the right thing.

I also want to thank the hon member for his appreciation to the hon the State President who went to inspect matters for himself. What he said about matters looking different on television to what they look when one is there oneself was true. I know that Britstown was affected very badly. The hon member has heard that we have placed him on the list and he can now also go and tell his people that after his persuasive speech here this afternoon, the Minister stood up and said that he felt that he would really have to mention to the State President that Britstown should also be included.

A fine thing which the hon member mentioned was how the people stood together; the food streamed in and Diakonale Dienste brought blankets. It was really wonderful.

However, the hon member for Britstown raised one very important point. He said that those stone-throwers should go to the rural areas and see how people of different population groups work together. Is that not true? That is what the hon member said. [Interjections.] Those people who revile the hon the State President so, must go along and see how he behaves towards the people and how he greets them, as the hon the Minister of the Budget said. It would be an eye-opener for them. Instead of concentrating on revolutionary matters, they should rather concentrate on the upliftment of their people after the floods. [Interjections.]

I also have great appreciation for our town clerks. I think we should take the crowd here in the Cape on a trip so that they can see how people work together.

The hon member for Steinkopf expressed sympathy and compassion for the losses of victims. He made a wonderful speech and I want to tell him that I have included the areas which he mentioned, Garaganaap and Goodhouse, in Namaqualand. The hon member can telephone Garaganaap this evening and tell them that they have also been included. They can put in claims, but it will probably take us a month to get the claim forms there. However, we shall do our best.

†I would like to thank the hon member for Ottery. He used the correct term when he described the floods as a saga. I would like to thank him for supporting the motion. He also spoke with great eloquence about the homeless, the fatherless, the dead, the injured and the maimed. I also wish to thank him for his personal words of thanks and gratitude to myself and the Cabinet Committee. I do appreciate that. However, I also appreciate what he said about the hon the State President and I would like to thank him. There is no doubt about it that great acts of charity should always be remembered by all of us. I thank the hon member for his contribution.

*The hon the Minister of the Budget really gave a wonderful description this afternoon—I should like to read it again in Hansard—of his personal experiences of the flood damage at Keimoes.

While I was sitting here listening to him I noticed that he thanked every man and every woman who helped at a specific place. This hon the Minister is an example to us all. It is only right to write down the names of those people who come our way and give assistance, and to know who they are. Hon members probably also noticed that he did not omit a single name. He even knew the names of every person who provided food—more than 300 hot meals.

I took cognisance of what he said and I agreed with him that we have to consider the fate of the casual labourers. I shall give immediate attention to the tents remaining for a longer period. Those people whose possessions were all washed away must apply to the disaster fund as soon as possible. I want to assure the hon the Minister of the Budget that at the next Cabinet meeting I shall request that we schedule agricultural aid in such a way that inputs can be made so that the people of Keimoes and elsewhere can receive assistance for the next crop.

In conclusion I again want to thank the hon member for Diamant most sincerely for his initiative in placing this very important matter on the Order Paper in such a fine way. I want to thank not only him, but all the hon members in this House most sincerely for their contributions.

Mr Chairman, in the first place I want to thank the hon members for Northern Cape, Southern Free State, Griqualand West, Britstown, Steinkopf, Ottery, the hon the Minister of the Budget and the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development for what they said here this afternoon. I think the hon the Minister of the Budget summarised matters correctly when he said that if we considered all the possessions and other material things which people had lost and all the damage caused to nature, eventually one realised that the most important thing still remained, namely the people. In such disasters one’s humaneness must come to the fore. The hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development has a history of humaneness. This is how we have come to know him over the years.

Let me tell the hon member for Griqualand West that we feel for him as regards Longlands. Sir, he need not feel bad because your colleague told him this afternoon that he was not talking about the motion. This does not detract at all from the fact that problems were experienced there, and we realise this. Perhaps this was simply not the right time to broach this matter.

My hon colleague from Britstown said that it was in times of need that we had to help one another. This is true. I have said before in this House, and I want to repeat my words today, that whereas we sometimes quarrel in this country from morning to night and even come to blows, we may not always hurt each other, but we always hurt South Africa. Perhaps the time has come for us to view the country’s problems differently, not only in respect of the flood disaster but in respect of the general interests of South Africa.

The hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development explained to us this afternoon how the disaster fund works. However, there is one person about whom very little is usually said, but who performs a tremendous task behind the scenes, namely the chairman, Mr Visser. Allow me to thank him for everything he has done.

Recently the SAA introduced a new route from Cape Town to Bloemfontein, Kimberley, Upington and back to Cape Town. Perhaps this is called the “flood route”. Strangely enough the pilot has a habit of flying as low as possible over the large bodies of water. Large cities like Kimberley, Bloemfontein and Upington really look like is lands surrounded by a sea of water. On the one hand one has sympathy for the damage caused, but on the other hand one realises that although that water may have threatened human lives at one stage, it still holds the promise of hope and new life.

Question agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move the motion printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:

I stand here full of bitterness and emotion and I blame all this on the Government of the Republic of South Africa.

The Indian community came to Clairwood some 107 years ago. When we came there the land was marshy and waterlogged, and not at all useful. Our people cultivated the land, built homes on it and created a beautiful township. Blacks, Whites, Coloureds and Indians lived side by side in Clairwood. Our people—the Indian community—built their own schools, mosques, temples, churches and other facilities. It was not the local authority that did it; we did it by the sweat of our brow. That poor community provided those facilities. The Government had no hand in it.

It was not an upper class community. It was the indigenous labourers who came to Clairwood. At that time the population was small, but it grew into a mighty population. During the early 20s, 30s and 40s the population grew to something of the order of 50 000. It was a harmonious community.

I should now like to deal with Clairwood as it was in my time. I was born in Clairwood, educated in Clairwood and I still live in Clairwood. The Durban City Council asked the regional town planning committee in 1952 for permission to industrialise Clairwood. The people of Clairwood objected at that stage. I really do not know which people were involved at that time.

From 1952 up to this very day, Clairwood has deteriorated. It is not the people of Clairwood who are responsible for this, but the White city councillors and the Nationalist Government.

In 1952 when the Group Areas Act was enacted, it created confusion in Clairwood. The Whites were compelled to move out through forced removal, as did the Coloureds.

At one stage if one had a Black living in one’s backyard in Clairwood, “debas kabantu”, the blackjacks, worried such a person. They enjoyed it. Who were the Black people who used to stay in Clairwood? They were mostly young qualified nurses. They were the people who were harassed, charged and detained.

The Group Areas Act caused the people this misery. Clairwood was a wonderful community with people of all races. Today if one looks around at Clairwood, one sees that it is in a shocking state. I think that Clairwood, as far as rates are concerned, is taxed the highest in the greater Durban area. For thousands of square meters of empty land the rates are R1 400 and R1 700 and tariffs for industrial usage are also charged without permission. This has been going on for some time.

The Durban City Council is always hurting the people of Clairwood. Even up till today simple facilities, such as the cleaning of roads and the cleaning of drainage, have not been provided for the people of Clairwood. The rates we have to pay go to the Durban City Council coffers. This represents a couple of million rands which the people have to pay. This money is then used for the Bluff, Woodlands and the surrounding areas.

One might ask oneself: Where is Clairwood? It is five kilometers from the central city of Durban. The Durban City Council demolished good homes by means of the Slums Act. It could not force the people out of Clairwood, so it used the Slums Act and took the poor owners to court and demolished their properties. What were those poor people to do? They were removed to Chatsworth and Phoenix, and their properties, built of brick and with tiled roofs, were demolished. The Durban City Council put its foot down, because it wanted to industrialise Clairwood. The people of Clairwood do not want it to be industrialised. They want housing. A compromise was reached between the Durban City Council and a few property owners that industry and housing would exist side by side. However, they did not agree. Petitions and objections were put forward, but up till today the issue of Clairwood has not been finalised. We were promised by the City Council that it would be finalised.

For record purposes I would like to quote from the report on the struggle of Clairwood. I quote:

I want hon members of this House to hold an inspection at Clairwood and to look at Clairwood. When I came to Parliament in 1984 I submitted a private member’s motion, but the hon the Minister was too afraid to reply to it and asked me to withdraw it. I did not just withdraw the motion; he promised to have a Group Areas hearing, but somewhere along the line I think the hon the Minister defaulted because at that stage the Durban City Council was given the power to do what they liked with Clairwood.

I do not know what the hon the Minister was trying to do; I think he was trying to take the Indian community for a ride. That is a fact because the Durban City Council told the hon the Minister to do it one favour and to keep out of its affairs. What did the Minister do? Nothing!

What happened this morning? A Post Office was bombed. Frustration is being created. I started my speech in bitterness. We have come a long way to participate here. Why are we participating, hon members, what are we getting? We are getting nothing. The hon the Deputy Minister is here and I ask him to give the Durban City Council a direction; no negotiations, no acting as an honest broker but a direction. That is what we want.

I suggest that this should not only be done for the Indian community of Clairwood. It was not an Indian community area originally. It was an open area. If the Government wants to talk of the Group Areas and suggests the President’s Council recommendations, let them implement them in Clairwood. Let me say this to the Government: If it is really honest, let it implement them in Clairwood.

Mr Chairman, I rise with a heavy heart in this debate to place on record the feelings of dismay and sympathy of this House on hearing of the bomb blast in the vicinity of the magistrate’s court in Krugersdorp in the Transvaal. Thirteen people were injured and three Blacks are presumed dead, one of whom was a warrant officer of the security department.

We disapprove of, abhor and detest any form of violence from any source whatsoever. It causes undue and unwarranted deaths, harm and injury to innocent people and members of the public who have the unfettered right to live and enjoy the health that is bestowed upon them by the Almighty Lord.

We wish to express and convey our heartfelt message of condolence to the bereaved families of the deceased. May the souls of the deceased rest in peace. We also pray for the speedy recovery and recuperation of the injured persons and we wish them well.

Mr Chairman, before I start with the motion itself I just want to respond to the previous speaker by associating myself with some of the comments he made. We too would like to condemn violence no matter from which quarters it comes. Violence is not a solution to the problems of this country.

At the same time we wish to place on record that those factors that militate against peace in this country must be removed, regardless of whether they constitute structural violence or physical violence.

It is indeed a pleasure to speak to this particular motion from this side of the House because we want to associate ourselves, in the main, with the comments made by the hon member for Isipingo. We want to express our gratitude for the fact that he has moved this motion on behalf of his party. We do not have very much difficulty with the motion itself, but the wording needs to be changed because we believe the intention of the hon member will not be achieved fully with the wording as it stands. I would therefore like to move as an amendment:

I just want to explain to hon members what we are saying in moving this amendment. In his motion the hon member for Isipingo refers to the Minister of Housing. We say there should be collective responsibility there and that all Ministers should be involved because we believe the functions, and what will be necessary from the point of view of development, do not pertain only to one Minister. There are local government factors, health factors and various other factors to consider and therefore the Ministers’ Council as a whole should be involved.

The second point I wish to make on behalf of my colleagues is that we believe one should plan with the people for the people; that is why we say the representatives of a particular area should be consulted. There are organisations which the hon member for Isipingo referred to in the course of his speech and I think the intention was there. We therefore believe those people should be consulted. There must be input from the people who are directly involved, the residents and the property owners. We in this House have said in previous debates that we plan with the people for the people. If that is true we must ensure that we maintain that principle throughout.

I now want to associate myself with some of the other more positive aspects of the speech by the hon member for Isipingo. I want to fully associate myself—I think every hon member in this House should associate himself—with the sentiment that this delay is unjustifiable, indefensible and highly immoral. I think it is because people of colour are directly affected that delays of this nature are allowed to prevail. I am sure that if the White community—which has greater influence in the Government of this country—were involved, this would not have been tolerated. Why must the sword of Damocles hang over the heads of people of colour at all times? This is frustrating participation politics. I am aware that while the hon member for Isipingo was on this side of the House, he moved that particular motion. I am also aware that an appeal was made in the hope that there would be an early resolution. There was co-operation. I am not arguing this motion today for the sake of argument. When a request was made to show a little restraint and understanding, we exercised that restraint and understanding. Today we are forced to enter open debates and to bring pressure to bear on the Government to do something about this issue because we feel hurt about it.

I also wish to say that as far as Clairwood is concerned the details and aspects of the historical background have been referred to by the hon member for Isipingo, and my hon colleagues will deal with that aspect in due course.

Permit me to refer to some of the other factors I think are important. The hon member for Isipingo mentioned the population that existed there. The actions he referred to in his speech have in fact curbed Indian growth, destroyed Indian capital and destroyed Indian economic activity in that particular area, much to the disadvantage not only of the Indian community but also of the taxpayers of this country. If the people had been allowed to develop in the normal way, as they had been doing previously, there would have been less pressure with regard to the housing needs of the community in South Africa. There would also have been less need for transportation because that area is well situated from the point of view of job opportunities, it is close to the centre of the city, and it is well-situated from an industrial point of view, being near Merebank and other areas. There would therefore have been no need for subsidies for private transport, or for other subsidies.

Therefore, what the Government has in fact done by trying to appease certain prejudices has in fact hurt the taxpayers of this country as well as the community. I think that is indefensible and immoral.

How can anyone justify a situation in which people live and own property in an area which is zoned as industrial land, when that land cannot be developed because it is frozen, but those people are charged rates on a commercial basis, on the basis of industrial rates. Is that morally defensible? Can any God-fearing human being defend such an immoral situation? Obviously the answer must be no. Why, then, should we tolerate this situation?

I believe that if there are any obstacles in the way of the Government achieving that which is important and satisfying the aspirations of the people in that area, such necessary action must be taken, even if it means that the executive arm must take legislative action. However, the people and the property owners in that area should not be made to suffer.

I might also mention that I am mindful of the fact that there are different usages in that area. I am mindful of the fact that there is residential usage as well as industrial usage within the ambit of town planning schemes that can be accommodated. One can have within the town planning schemes, zones created for composite buildings with composite usages. It is possible to have zones created such that one still has residential usage in certain areas together with commercial activity, with shops at the bottom and residences above. This is a common practice among the Indian community; it is nothing new. That is how the Indian community developed.

One can also have one’s pure residential zones; but one’s residential zones do not all have to be special residential zones. One can create general residential areas as well as special residential areas, and one can have varying densities. In the final analysis, however, one needs an integrated system; a properly structured area which has been well designed and well planned.

I believe these things should be put into motion. One has to have a socio-economically integrated development in that area, with people from various groupings and various income brackets, with various requirements, housed in that particular area.

I say that this can be done. I also believe that if one has commercial activity in the area it is easier for people to reach their places of employment, particularly if one has light industry in that particular area.

However, housing is also important. There is no point in developing it as an industrial area if people have to go and live in Cato Manor or even further, in Chatsworth and Phoenix. That defeats the whole object.

I would like to believe, before I resume my seat, that our appeals are not going to fall on deaf ears. If our appeals are going to fall on deaf ears, I believe that the Government will have compromised us and sacrificed us in participation politics.

Will the hon member agree that as the hon the Deputy Minister who is going to answer has only 14 days to go in his Ministry, he should give us a parting gift and sort Clairwood out?

Mr Chairman, my personal relationship with the hon the Deputy Minister has been a good one because he has been very compassionate. I know where his heart is. However, I think that what is important is for policy to be changed in this country.

Hear, hear!

I also believe that if it were in the hands of the hon the Deputy Minister to change policy, he would have done so a long time ago. I would like to believe that, and I mean it sincerely.

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council is in the executive arm as a Cabinet Minister, and I would also appeal to him to exert pressure in that regard as well.

[Inaudible.]

Mr Chairman, can the hon member tell me which White political party controls Durban City Council?

Mr Chairman, politics is always in such a state of flux, with people changing their party affiliations. I have not taken stock of who belongs to which party there. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, at the outset I would like to compliment the hon member for Isipingo for highlighting the problems of Clairwood. I do not do this because I believe that we should again highlight the problems of Clairwood, which has been neglected for the past 30 years, but it serves to highlight the inefficacy and the total emasculation of the Ministers’ Council of the House of Delegates. I say this very advisedly because the hon member for Isipingo indicated that he had, by way of a private member’s motion, placed this very same matter on the Order Paper about two and a half years ago, as a result of which the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning gave certain assurances and in fact followed this up by holding a group areas inquiry.

However, that was not the end of the story. It is regrettably to the shame of the Ministers’ Council of this House that this matter has been allowed to lie, like other important matters that have been raised in this Chamber, without being resolved to the satisfaction of the Indian community and the people of this country as a whole. In that regard I refer to several private members’ resolutions that have been debated in this Chamber and which in principle have had support from both sides of the House. I refer, for example, to the problem of the foreign-trained doctors—another unresolved problem which the Ministers’ Council promised to attend to. Furthermore I refer to the second access route to Chatsworth, another problem which has not been resolved.

I regret to inform the hon member for Isipingo that, although I fully support the motion in spirit, I believe it does not go far enough because it does not include, as the hon member for Stanger has indicated, consultation with all the people of Clairwood. Therefore, I would like to place on record that I support the amendment that has been moved by the hon member for Stanger.

The hon member for Isipingo talked about the Group Areas Act. Let me remind that hon member that it was his leader, the leader of the National Peoples Party, who publicly stated that there is no need to repeal the Group Areas Act and that a fair and equal distribution of land is all that is required. Let us look at that particular argument: The fair and equal distribution of land. What does it mean in this country? It means that land must be distributed fairly and equally to all of the people of this country. I say, with great respect, that if that were to be so, the Indian people could not lay claim to any greater share of the land. What is required is a complete repeal of the Act. I say this with great respect to the hon member for Isipingo. I understand that, unlike his leader, the hon member for Isipingo also supports the complete repeal of the Act. I believe that only the complete repeal of the Act will solve the land distribution problems in this country. [Interjections.]

I want to say that the hon the State President of this land has very piously indicated that there are problems attached to the Group Areas Act and that he will be attending to them in the near future so that no groups will be interfered with. I want to tell the hon the State President with respect that not all his piety nor all his wit will remove any of the hurt that has been caused by the Group Areas Act. The only thing that remains to be done in that regard is for the Act to be repealed in its totality.

I believe the story of Clairwood is another sorry and sordid saga in the discrimination, the harassment and the exploitation of the Indian people at the hands not only of the Durban City Council but also of the Government of this country. Let me remind hon members of this House that an hon member of this House also has a seat in the Cabinet of the Government of this country and that therefore, that hon member of this House who has a seat in the Cabinet is equally responsible for this harassment and exploitation.

I want to say that I hold no brief for the Durban City Council and neither do I hold any brief for the so-called progressive-minded councillors on the Durban City Council. I am proud of my association as a member of the family of progressive politicians in this country but that does not mean that we condone any of the actions of any people who hurt others in this country. [Interjections.]

It was initially this Government, in its crazy and suicidal pursuit of a racist and a defunct ideology of keeping people apart, which dealt the first blow to the landowners and the residents of Clairwood which, as the hon member for Isipingo has indicated, grew out of humble beginnings over a century ago. What the hon member for Isipingo forgot to tell this House, however, was that it was the first completely Indian suburb of Durban, and that happened over 30 years ago.

It is the Durban City Council that has jurisdiction over this area and in the first instance, as I say, the blame for the decay and the death of Clairwood lies with the Durban City Council. However, at another level, that blame should also be apportioned to the Government of this country because it was as a result of this Government’s policy of separate development that the representatives of that area were prevented from being elected to the Durban City Council, which is the council that has jurisdiction over this area. That constraint remains to this very day.

We have in this very Chamber, Ministers of Local Government and members of the Cabinet of the Government of this country and they, too, must share in the responsibility for this. I say that if the people of Clairwood were allowed representation on the Durban City Council, perhaps the future of Clairwood might have been different because there, around the horse-shoe of the Durban City Council, representatives of the Clairwood community could have argued the case far more effectively than we are doing in this very Chamber, as the representatives of Clairwood would really know where the shoe hurts.

The hon member for Isipingo correctly indicated that the issue of the rezoning of this area has been in limbo for more than 30 years. He also correctly indicated that in 1985 the residents of this area thought they had won the struggle for the right to continue to live in the homes which they built many years ago. In that regard, I think the Durban City Council also conceded victory after a referee, in the form of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, pronounced in favour of Clairwood being zoned a special residential area. If I recall correctly, it was that very same hon Minister who said that the residents could look to the future with confidence, as the years of uncertainty were over. I regret to say that, with hindsight, those remarks sound very hollow. As the hon member for Stanger indicated, the sword of Damocles still hangs over the residents of Clairwood. This matter has not yet been resolved.

In the thirty years’ struggle to zone Clairwood as a residential or industrial area, we saw a ban on any improvement or alteration to homes in that area. We saw neglect which led to decay. We saw slum tickets being issued by ever-vigilant city council inspectors, which were followed by eviction and finally demolition of homes in that area.

Encouraged by the words of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning in 1985, a number of residents in the area began improvements to their homes. Many of them began adding rooms, repainting their homes and again pouring capital into their assets in Clairwood. Then of course the bombshell came in November 1986 when the hon the Minister had to acknowledge that he really had no jurisdiction over this particular problem and therefore he had no right to make that decree.

Again, quite correctly, the hon member for Isipingo indicated that this issue was and still remains with the Durban City Council and as far as the residents and property owners in that area are concerned, the struggle to retain their properties for residential purposes continues. As the Portuguese say: Aluta continual

At least one of the Durban City Council’s members is on public record as indicating that he has property in that area and wants that area to be zoned industrial. The motivation for this is that he believes that there is a need for the provision of more jobs in the city. Basically they are saying: “Get the homes out of Clairwood, so that we can establish industries there in order to give employment to the people of Durban.” In itself it is a laudable point of view and I have great empathy with that. I certainly believe that there is need for more and greater employment, but at the same time I am not unmindful of the fact that it would be best to industrialise the northern part of Durban, which is close to the large industrial Black townships. This would also create employment opportunities closer to those townships, in the vicinity of which there are very few industrial areas.

If Clairwood were to be industrialised I believe that workers would have to traverse right across Durban, coming from their homes on the northern side to the southern part of Durban. I believe this will add to the traffic congestion and everything else that goes with it. In this regard we have scientific support from the Built Environment Support Group which is a special unit of the University of Natal. I understand that it has prepared a very good proposal in this regard. It has researched the problems of Clairwood, of employment and of the location of industries in and around Greater Durban.

I am pleased that the committee also found that Clairwood should remain residential and that the industrial area should be moved further to the north. There was a Group Areas Board hearing in 1985 where I was also present. The hon the leader of my party led evidence in that enquiry and I want to say that the overwhelming evidence that was presented to that board was for the retention of Clairwood as a residential area for the Indian people in particular.

I would like to go along with what the hon member for Isipingo indicated, namely that it has been a residential area in the past and that it should remain a residential area, but it should be a residential area for all the people who lived in Clairwood before.

Housing remains a critical issue in this country. We have heard of the massive shortage of homes. Here we have an area, albeit neglected and decayed, where there are homes. It should remain as a blot on our consciences if we were party to the destruction of any further homes in this country, particularly in Clairwood.

I believe the obstinacy of the Durban City Council is amazing, to say the least. I believe it is this kind of obstinacy that is bedevilling the future of this country. It gives rise to the frustrations which eventually lead to the type of situation that we had in Krugersdorp.

It is about time that we in this House realised that it is not only important for us merely to debate private members’ motions in this Chamber. A private member’s motion only serves to ventilate and highlight a problem and to perhaps offer a solution. What is needed is a far more vigorous approach to be adopted by the Ministers’ Council that is responsible to this House, to the community and to the country. I want to say to the hon members of the Ministers’ Council that I do not believe that we have enough time left to pursue motion after motion in this House without being able to deliver the goods. I do not believe that individual hon members, particularly those who belong to the majority party in this House, should come here and highlight a problem that should be obvious to the hon members of the Ministers’ Council in any case.

[Inaudible.]

Mr Chairman, if the hon member for Mariannhill wishes to address me I shall afford him the opportunity if indeed he wishes to do so.

The point that I was making is simply that it is about time that the Ministers’ Council of this House got on with their job of solving the problems of issues such as Clairwood instead of only going after issues that give us big adverts in newspapers. We believe that it will give us an advantage as well.

Mr Chairman, before I speak in support of the motion of the hon member for Isipingo I wish to convey to the hon the Deputy Minister the good wishes of this House on his appointment as the Minister of Health Services and Welfare. On behalf of this House I wish him well.

In support of the motion of the hon member for Isipingo I want to say that Clairwood falls in my constituency. A few months back I led a deputation of Clairwood the Ratepayers’ Association to the House of Delegates. I brought them face to face with the House to talk and to find out what the planning with regard to Clairwood was. There was a great deal of discussion for about two hours. After many suggestions and countersuggestions it was agreed that the hon members of the House of Delegates would come back to us to tell us more about Clairwood but we have not heard anything more from them.

One thing the Opposition always seem to accuse us of is that we are being restricted by apartheid and the group areas and anything else they can think of. We have all accepted that by being here in this House, otherwise we would all be sitting at home.

If the Opposition Party was the majority party today, what would they have done? They would have done nothing other than what this side of the House is doing. [Interjections.] I therefore say they are hoodwinking and bluffing the Indian community into thinking that they are wonderful people because they do not support this or that, while the majority party does, and then they accuse us of being no good. If they were the majority party they would have done exactly the same. They say the same thing over and over again. Let us get down to business to see how best we can try to solve the problems that exist in the community. [Interjections.] That is why we are here.

We have co-operated with the system. One thing we have promised is that we shall work within the system to alleviate many problems that exist amongst the community. That does not mean that we do not want the Group Areas Act to be abolished. We want everything that is against the Indian community, and particularly against the non-Whites, to be abolished once and for all. [Interjections.]

We want to live like human beings. It is our birthright that has been taken away from us artificially. May God bring us the day when all these discriminatory laws will be done away with and we will be treated as equal partners and as human beings in this country.

I want to come back to Clairwood. People have settled in Clairwood since 1870. They have lived there for 108 years, ever since the first Indians settled in Clairwood. That was just 10 years after the first Indian immigrants came to the RSA. The area was a jungle. There was nothing there. With blood and sweat they built up that area and lived there. They built a small settlement for themselves. They planted gardens in their backyards from which they earned a living, as the cost of living was low in those days. With blood and sweat they gradually built on and enlarged their houses. Finally they built brick houses.

What happened was that as soon as Durban started to develop, the Durban City Council tried to acquire Clairwood, and to take it over for greater Durban so that they could deal with Clairwood as they wished. This was a sinister move on the part of the Durban City Council, and they started to deal with Clairwood in the way they wanted to.

Finally, in 1950 Clairwood was proclaimed a controlled area. Harsher restrictions were imposed on the residents of Clairwood. Their development stagnated and they could do nothing to improve their living conditions. This is where the stagnation started, and the rot set in for those poor Clairwood residents. They are innocent sufferers because of the bad intentions of the Durban City Council. In the interim they came along with slum acts. They give you a notice to repair your building, but perhaps that building will cost R2 000 to repair. No building society, or anyone else for that matter, will advance that property owner R2 000 to repair his building because it has been frozen and there is nothing one can do with it. What happens then? The property deteriorates further and further. It was the intention of the Durban Corporation to declare it a slum and then come along and demolish the building. Either the man who owns the building or his tenant has to move out somewhere, wherever he can find shelter, because the Durban Corporation will come along and demolish the building with its own gang. On top of that, they will charge him for it! That is going to happen.

That property owner loses what little income he has, or perhaps he was living on his own property and was paying rates and taxes, etc. Now he has to move out somewhere else and pay rent, and is therefore unable to pay the rates and taxes for his property. This hawk—the Durban City Council—comes along and finally takes away the property because the owner cannot pay the rates and taxes. Therefore, the majority of properties in that area have been taken over by the Durban City Council. The Durban City Council is the biggest landowner in Clairwood. The intention of the Durban City Council was ultimately to take over the whole of Clairwood and capitalise on it. It was grossly unfair to deprive human beings of what they have built over 119 years, with hard work and the sweat of their brows. We have not heard of any other gross injustice of that nature in modern history. This is a calamity and the suffering of the people of Clairwood has to be seen to be believed. Believe me when I say I am telling the truth.

One educated old man of about 77 who said he was born there and had lived there, said: “Tell the Government to put me in a gas chamber and do away with me. I cannot take it any longer. I have nothing, I am living in rags, I live on a pension, and I cannot pay my rates and taxes. If I sell my property, where will I go and live? I cannot go anywhere else to live—I would starve.”

Anyone who was aware of the problems and difficulties of those living in Clairwood, if he were a true human being and a truly religious, Christian man, would have to be sympathetic. We live in a Christian country where justice must prevail. This type of justice is not understood by Christianity. If it were truly Christian, the Government would have solved that problem long ago.

They come up with one excuse. The hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning is now faced with a problem, because he is unable to rescind the approval granted for the usage of Clairwood for industrial purposes, as there are no provisions in the Physical Planning Act for the withdrawal of such approval. Every day this is being done. If there is something missing in the Act, introduce a brief amending Bill with retrospective effect to amend that Act, and add a few more words to it. That is all that is required. The Government is closing its eyes and conniving with the City Council of Durban. I am sorry to say that this is a common trend. I do not think that the hon the Deputy Minister sitting here would deny that. Knowingly and intentionally, this is being done to destroy the people of Clairwood. I think this is grossly unfair. It must be looked into by the hon the Minister without delay with a view to seeing how they can pressurise and twist the arm of the Durban City Council in order to bring this to an immediate conclusion so that the people of Clairwood can live happily.

I am being pressurised by all the people in Clairwood. There are a large number of telephone calls to my house every day. It is impossible to imagine the problems of the poor in Clairwood. I am talking about genuine and severe suffering. They need assistance, and someone must provide it. If this is not done, the hon the Minister responsible will be guilty. I even appeal to the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council—these people are his brothers and sisters—please to do something about them. I appeal to him in Heaven’s name to get something done.

[Inaudible.]

Get the matter finalised once and for all. Clairwood must be finalised, forgotten and finished.

Even once the matter has been finalised, the money must be provided. The City Council of Durban drags its feet and says that it does not have the money. Do the people of Clairwood, then, have to wait another 10 years to find that money? The money must be provided by the Government if the Durban City Council does not have the money. Development must take place quickly—a few years will be too long. It is imperative that the matter be finalised within the next two to three years so that people can start building homes and living there. I hope that the matter will be attended to without any delay whatsoever. Any delay would be unnecessary, because this one area in the city of Durban has suffered to an extent that you and I cannot imagine. The problems that they have been through and are going through in that area are unimaginable.

It is impossible to pass through some of those areas. The mosquitoes, the mud, the rats—anything you can think of may be encountered there. If Clairwood is not fully developed within the next five years I would not be surprised if the plague broke out in the city of Durban. Who would be responsible for that? It would be the Government. The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council would also be responsible for that. He must look into the matter as soon as possible so that he can bring this chapter to an end once and for all.

I have one or two things to say. In Clairwood there is a shortage of about 1 800 houses—that is how many families need housing. Clairwood itself will never be able to accommodate that number, so that a lot of those people will have to be housed elsewhere. This problem should be looked into right now and these statistics should be acted upon. We should not neglect those who are very poor, for they have suffered the most and should be equally be accommodated by the House of Delegates.

With these words I again ask the hon the Minister of Housing please to look into this matter and see how these unfortunate people can be helped. God will bless him for that.

Mr Chairman, I stand here as a direct descendant of an indentured labourer who came from India in 1905. It is with heartfelt emotion that I say that ever since we Indians settled in this country, we have always struggled. We struggled to eke out a living, we struggled to live in the places of our choice and we struggled to earn a better living. It all boils down to the conditions we have to live in under the present Government.

Thousands of indentured Indian labourers were brought to South Africa to provide labour on the sugar plantations along the coast of Natal. In the early days, when the contracts expired, they were given the choice of either a free passage home or remaining in South Africa and being granted small pieces of crown land on which to settle. After the first few years of the crown land having been made available, they were given the choice to either settle permanently or to leave the country. Well in excess of 90% of all Indians in South Africa are descendants of these early settlers and they were born in this country. They know no other home. Their occupations were more varied than was the case in the Transvaal and in the Cape. The largest of men were employed in the manufacturing industry after the indentured labourers were brought in to work on the sugar plantations. Although Indians have not been totally prohibited from owning land in urban areas, increasing restrictions have been applied. The process commenced in 1922 when the Durban Corporation acquired powers to introduce anti-Asiatic clauses in sales and leases of land. The Class Areas Bill of 1924 and the Areas Reservation Bill of 1925 were designed to segregate the Indians of Natal in the same way as was done in the Transvaal. However, they were withdrawn following the Cape Town Agreement of 1929.

Mr Chairman, I am tracing the history of the Indians in South Africa and the struggle that we are going through in Parliament today as a matter of interest, in case hon members get bored with my statistics. Mainly as a result of mounting agitation by the Whites of Durban against the Indian penetration into Natal, the Trading and Occupation of Land (Transvaal and Natal) Restriction Act, known as the “Pegging Act”, was enacted in 1943. Its operation was limited to three years, pending further investigation into the question. For this period it pegged the existing position of property transactions between Whites and Indians being placed under official control.

At the end of the three years the Asiatic Land Tenure Act was passed. This provided that except in exempted areas which were defined in schedules, no Indian could purchase or take over occupation of fixed property anywhere in the Transvaal or Natal without a permit from the Minister of the Interior. Similarly, non-Indians required permits if they wished to purchase from Indians within the exempted areas. Indians might trade outside these areas provided they did not live on the trading premises.

Then, in 1950, came the Group Areas Act. Since 1950 four amending Acts as well as the Group Areas Development Act, have been introduced. In terms of this legislation control was imposed over interracial property transactions and interracial changes in occupation.

I now come to Clairwood. Ever since the late 1860s Clairwood has been a residential area and at the peak of its development it had a population of over 40 000, with 953 ratepayers and a total school population of 8 594 pupils and 274 shops. Then, in 1952, the city council applied for Clairwood to be rezoned as an industrial area. Ever since 1975, when a Government proclamation declared Clairwood to be an industrial area, the area has been frozen for further development, and the Clairwood we see today is a typical slum because of the inadequate provision of infrastructure. There is no sewerage reticulation system in the area and neither are there any adequate road verges. The roads are in a deplorable condition because of the city council’s don’t-give-a-hoot kind of attitude.

What is worse is the fact that the property owners have had to pay exorbitant rates. They have had to pay an industrial rate for residential property and, indeed, this is almost double. Someone owning approximately 1 000 square metres of land pays nearly R2 400 a year in rates. This is indeed a gross injustice in so far as the rates are concerned and therefore, Mr Chairman, we are concerned about this Sword of Damocles that has been hanging over the property owners of Clairwood for the past 30 years. It is time the Government took action in this regard.

I was rather perturbed to see this letter from the hon the Minister dated 31 March 1987 and addressed to one of the concerned people in the area, in which he says the following:

I understand that because the proclamation has already been made the hon the Minister now feels that his hands are tied. I feel sure that in view of the input and the representations that are being made by the people of Clairwood and by us, as representatives of the area, the hon the Minister should now consider this. From various quarters there are moves afoot to the effect that Clairwood should not be zoned for industrial purposes. I therefore ask the hon the Minister to look into this matter very thoroughly and to listen to the cries of the people in the area. I wholeheartedly support the amendment moved by the hon the Chief Whip of the Official Opposition.

Mr Chairman, firstly I want to take this opportunity of congratulating our colleague, the hon the Deputy Minister of Development Planning, for being elevated to a new position. He has our congratulations on this matter. He will be missed from this Department. However, I think he must have been breathing a sigh of relief …

No, but he is getting right with us.

Yes. He is breathing a sigh a relief for being relieved of the implementation of an Act that has brought pain, misery and suffering to thousands of people. However, we wish him well in his new department.

Ever since the enactment of the Group Areas Act the noose emanating from that Act has been tightening around various areas. We are well aware of the fact that such fine areas as Durban North, Riverside, Malvern and Hillary were phased out as Indian areas. While not altogether being able to phase out Cato Manor and Clairwood, it also had a tightening effect on these areas. However, as far as these two areas are concerned, the noose tightened to a lesser extent, so that they could be resuscitated with efforts later on. That is exactly what is being done at this stage.

Housing development for Indians is well under way again in part of Cato Manor, but a great part of it has been lost. However, as far as Clairwood is concerned, it is great pity and very saddening to hear this afternoon of the manner in which, year by year, it has degenerated into a slum. It was also very painful to hear from colleagues in this House that an area which has been declared industrial, but which is not being developed, has to generate rates which are not really economic for the owners of that land.

I look back at Clairwood when I was a youngster. I came as a teenager from the countryside to the bright lights of the city, a metropolitan area. I can remember that in those early days Clairwood was a very close and harmonious community, with everybody living there in a happy atmosphere. It was fairly well developed as far as amenities, education, entertainment and other facilities were concerned, albeit not to the extent we would have liked it to have been developed. My mind goes back to some of the entertainment areas. I am not sure whether Rhani’s Theater is still there.

The building is still there.

Yes.

It was the age of the phasing-out of the silent picture and the arrival of the “talkies”. When I visited relatives in Clairwood one day I had the experience of seeing my first “talkie” at the Oranje Theatre called Silver King. This experience stands out in my mind. What really stands out in my mind, however, are the various areas such as Dayal Road, Cherry Road, Cosad Road and Jacobs Road. These roads stand out more in my mind because of my relatives who lived there. However, they are no longer there. They were displaced, the area became neglected and they are now housed in other areas.

Much against the wishes of the people, the area was later declared industrial. Much later again part of it was declared a residential area. Because of the uncertainty that hung over the heads of the people, development was of necessity neglected. It remains so up to this day. It therefore behoves those who were in charge of the changing of the nature of this area to see to it that justice is done.

Clairwood is in a very important position. It could generate manpower for its own industrial area. It could generate manpower for the Prospecton area which is in close proximity to Clairwood. We have other areas that are fairly well developed, eg Orange Hills is fairly well developed insofar as housing is concerned. Prospecton, however, lies between two areas to which it has not yet laid claim and these are Isipingo Beach and Isipingo Hills. While the fight continues the area of Prospecton still belongs to the Amanzimtoti area which in my view is unjustified.

Clairwood on the other hand is very well situated being surrounded by various residential areas. Cato Manor could supply the manpower needs of Clairwood. Then we also have the metropolitan area of Durban itself and, as I mentioned, the other two residential areas of Isipingo.

Clairwood is a beautiful residential area if it only could be developed as such. It may be low-lying but it had a very cohesive community that loved the area. That love, however, became tarnished because of the actions of local authorities and others who neglected the area to such an extent that people moved away from Clairwood like fleas running away from dying rats. It is a great pity that that has happened to Clairwood. However, it is never too late to mend. I believe that people who are interested in Clairwood can resuscitate the area to such an extent that it can be restored to the beautiful area that one envisaged previously.

I listened very intently this afternoon. I support the motion of my hon colleague. I know that he made an impassioned plea that action should be taken to restore Clairwood as quickly as possible.

I want to support the motion so that at least there will be people who will hear us and take action so that the people of Clairwood will once again enjoy great happiness.

Mr Chairman, first of all I want to compliment the hon member for Isipingo on initiating this motion. I share his feelings.

I resided at Wentworth about 2 kilometres away from Clairwood. Since my childhood I have gone to Clairwood because it was the hub of activities and a cultural centre for sport, religion and entertainment.

[Inaudible.]

Yes, we were there together and we enjoyed that facility as well.

There has been a default with regard to Clairwood, as there was considerable uncertainty in defining that area. There was uncertainty in arriving at a final decision for over 30 years as to whether to make Clairwood a residential, industrial or mixed residential and industrial area. This was largely due to the blunders made by the Durban City Council. I make bold to say that. Councillors of the present city council may defend themselves by saying that those mistakes were made by previous councillors, but even to this day there is no solution to the problem. Therefore the present councillors are also party to the mistakes of their predecessors.

I should like to make the point that the Durban City Council is one of the many land-owners in Clairwood and perhaps they have motives for industrialising the area.

The hon member for Springfield said that certain city councillors owned land and I want to support that. Not only do they own land but they are in the process of buying land for their own interests. The Durban City Council showed scant respect for the human feelings and aspirations of the people of Clairwood. This was made possible by the fact that the Indians did not enjoy any representation in the decision making process. The people of Clairwood were voteless and voiceless.

The Durban City Council was in fact hiding behind the Group Areas Act and they failed to take their own decision or even to defy the Group Areas Act and make recommendations for that area to become residential.

I now want to say that the Durban City Council was the chief architect of segregation and separate development. I want to quote from the Leader of 13 June 1984. The Clairwood Ratepayers’ Association has this to say, and I quote:

I also want to quote from the Durban City Engineer’s Memorandum dated February 1982, page 2:

I want to continue, Mr Chairman:

Here we find that the Durban City Council was hell-bent on making that area industrial. What is worse, the ratepayers and the residents’ association were not accorded the opportunity to take part in the decision-making process.

In 1979 the commission comprising Clairwood residents and officials of the Department of Community Development recommended that 20 acres of land be zoned for residential use. This was turned down by the city council. In 1983 the City Council tried to pass the buck to the Department of Community Development. I quote from a resolution passed by the city council on 7 November 1983, referring to Clairwood:

Let me move on. The hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning has backtracked on this issue. I want to quote from The Natal Witness of 28 May 1987, as follows:

A long time ago I saw cartoons in the newspapers depicting Durban city councillors as dilly-dallying people. I do not blame those cartoonists for seeing the Durban city council as a dilly-dallying body.

If the Durban City Council had any respect for the welfare of its citizens and ratepayers it would have arrived at solutions through consultation. They should arrive at decisions through concurrence—“consult” can mean many things and real consultation may not always take place. Therefore the concurrence of the residents of Clairwood is vital to the issue.

[Inaudible.]

Has the hon member been to Clairwood? Does he know where it is, in the first place? [Interjections.]

In the meantime Clairwood has been sadly neglected. Industrial rates on property are killing the people. There is no sewage system …

Mr Chairman, I know where Clairwood is. He said in his address that the people had moved away from Clairwood and I want to know from him how he suggests we consult…

Order! I want to call upon the hon member for Mariann-hill to refer to the hon member for Merebank as “the hon member” and not as “he”.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Merebank said that I do not know Clairwood, but I know where it is. In his address the hon member said that the majority of people had left Clairwood and therefore I want to know from him with whom we have to negotiate.

I suggest the hon member consult Hansard to verify that. I am talking about people who are residing there, so how could I have said they had moved away? [Interjections.]

Allow me to continue with the first matter. I want to emphasise that industrial rates are killing the people of Clairwood. There is no sewage system and the bucket system still prevails. The roads are bad and the grass is overgrown to such an extent that even the roads are being narrowed.

Houses have deteriorated over the years and scores of houses have been declared slums. There is a big story about declaring this area a slum but I do not want to go into detail about that. The area is littered with scrapyards and industrial dumps and is infested with rats and snakes. People are living in squalid conditions. I do not wish to quote further articles from newspapers, together with pictures. All this is due to the council’s neglect.

Hon members may wonder why I am taking the Durban City Council to task. It is because the Durban City Council is responsible for its citizens but they have neglected this part of the city as it is Indian.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member whether, if he feels so strongly about the matter under discussion, he will not recommend a commission of inquiry into the Durban City Council?

Mr Chairman, the Clairwood land must be given back to its rightful owners. Grant those people their wishes and let it be the decision. I charge the hon the Minister now, in his last few days in the department, as a farewell gesture to do something for the people of Clairwood and arrive at a firm decision. He must issue directives to the authorities concerned to finalise this issue.

Mr Chairman, the hon members who have spoken this afternoon have discussed the issue of Clairwood and in doing so they have spoken from the bottom of their hearts.

This is a case of exploitation by a local authority of the provisions of the statutes of this country. The statute of paramount importance in this regard is the Group Areas Act, and in addition there is the Physical Planning Act.

In one of the discussions conducted with the late Prime Minister Vorster, the Indian Executive Council emphasised the injustices being meted out to the people of colour in this country. One of the issues then presented to the Prime Minister at the time was Cato Manor. I recall with some misgivings the words of the late Prime Minister Mr Vorster: “If there were injustices in the name of a just law, you do not call those injustices.”

Therefore, when I say that we pointed out these injustices, those were the words of the man who was leading the country.

Having said that, between then and now attitudes in the State have changed, and with these changing attitudes we make the plea this afternoon, as reflected in the notice of motion on the Order Paper, for the proper development of Clairwood which, under the control of the Durban City Council, has degenerated over the past 30 years.

The Durban City Council shows Clairwood as a future industrial area with the excuse—and very largely under the pretext—that within the city council boundaries there is not enough industrial land for the future expansion of Durban’s industries.

As I said earlier, it was on the pretence that there was insufficient land for industrial development within the boundaries of the City Council of Durban. However, in the last ten years industrial parks and industrial land have been established, particularly on the banks of the Umgeni, at Phoenix, and in other places west of Durban. All of this was available at the time when the Durban City Council proposed that Clairwood should be the extension for industrial areas.

It was very clear to those of us who discussed this matter with the Durban City Council officials and the city councillors that they had one object in mind. Their object was to remove all the Indian owners, as well as occupants, from Clairwood. As a result of this, they did not improve the services, particularly sanitary services, in the area. They then started in a holus-bolus fashion with town planning of the area for industrial purposes. In this process they cut off boundaries of land used for residential purposes to widen the roads for industrial purposes, again very cleverly restricting the residential people from expansion and even cutting off their access to their properties. This is what the Durban City Council did. They did it all under the provisions of the Physical Planning Act and the Group Areas Act. Therefore, when accusing fingers are pointed at the Durban City Council they should also be pointed at the State, because these grievances of the people of Clairwood have been brought to the Government’s attention for the past 25 years. What did we get? Excuse after excuse, such as: This cannot be done and that cannot be done under the provisions of these Acts.

This all points to absolute discrimination against a community which has always been discriminated against and, if I may use a hard word, oppressed. The result has been bad. Those properties that had residential rights have been demolished, as has been quite rightly pointed out by various hon members of this House, under the legislation on slum clearance. The harshness of demolishing those homes has been aggravated by the fact that the vacant land is subject to industrial rates. Like other hon members I could go on pointing out examples of this very sore issue in the lives of the people of Durban and Clairwood.

The Group Areas Act and the Physical Planning Act changed the social order and pattern of a community that was exuberant and living in peace and harmony with one another. This was done purely to achieve the aims of discrimination. That discrimination was directed mainly against the Indian people in the area.

Because of the history of this area and that of others which have also suffered the same consequences, we plead that this Government would now address the issue of Clairwood with a measure of urgency and bring back Clairwood to its original state.

As I said earlier, proper planning can be done within the parameters of the Durban City Council’s town planning scheme and within the Acts that provide for such development on the Statute Book of this country. Proper development can take place for industrial, commercial and residential purposes and in that way life will be brought back to the area.

Mr Chairman, I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate my colleague the hon the Deputy Minister of Development Planning on the occasion of his elevation to the position of Minister of Health Services and Welfare in the House of Assembly. The point we are making this afternoon is that we are equally as concerned about looking after the welfare of those who have been placed in a tremendously disadvantageous position in Clairwood.

A few months ago the hon member for Durban Bay arranged a meeting between the representatives of the Clairwood and District Ratepayers’ Association and myself. At that meeting an arrangement was made that our town planners would study this area and prepare a memorandum which would be considered by the Ministers’ Council of the House of Delegates for submission to the relevant Minister in respect of deproclaiming part of Clairwood as controlled and reproclaiming it an Indian area. I want to confirm that that memorandum is now ready. It will be discussed by the Ministers’ Council next Thursday before onward transmission to the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. I want to place on record that contrary to what people may say, the hon member of Parliament for that area has worked tirelessly on behalf of the people of that area, despite his advanced age.

If one wants to find an area that has been throttled, an area whose soul has been suppressed as a result of a process of slow torture, then one of the finest examples to be found in this country is that of Clairwood. Cato Manor was also the largest Indian area outside the Asian subcontinent, but in Cato Manor there was no slow torture. The people were simply removed. It is difficult for one to imagine, in the twentieth century and in a country in which there are supposed to be Western standards and Western civilisation, that this uncertainty could have been hanging over the heads of the people of that area for the past 30 years. That is almost a third of a century. That is unforgivable, Mr Chairman, and therefore I want to add my weight to this motion this afternoon. With all the might at our disposal, let us find a solution to the problems of Clairwood now. What is more, when we find a solution to the problems of Clairwood, let us not permit the rules and regulations of any local authority to delay any further the implementation of what we desire to do today. [Interjections.]

The time is now ripe for the first level of Government to tell the third level where it stands, because this is a part of the constitutional changes that are taking place in this country, and if this House fails to restore justice in Clairwood then I believe there is no justification for this House to continue. [Interjections.]

It might be a small issue, but it is a national issue, because we have always boasted in Clairwood that it was once regarded as the largest concentration of Indians outside the Asian subcontinent.

When the hon member for Merebank spoke about Clairwood, he spoke with authority, because the area where he resided was actually regarded as greater Clairwood. The hon member for Isipingo was born and brought up in Clairwood, and so was I. I was bom in Clairwood, I resided there, was brought up there and remained there for 27 years.

The last to leave!

Amongst the last to leave!

Let us look at what the Durban City Council has done in Clairwood. There was uncertainty from the early fifties about whether, as a result of the Group Areas Act, Clairwood would be declared a controlled area. They had their eye on Clairwood. They should have been frank and honest with the people of Clairwood, and said that they wanted it for an industrial area. They should have been frank with us and we would have known where we stood. However, instead they first decided to build an abattoir, in Clairwood and actually acquired land—a great portion of Clairwood—for the purpose of constructing an abattoir which was then not built. Secondly, they made numerous applications to the Administrator of Natal at the time to declare Clairwood industrial, but he refused. As a result of his refusal the Durban City Council lodged an appeal in 1975 to the then Minister of Planning.

Originally the Durban City Council prepared a town planning scheme on 15 February 1954, in which Clairwood was proposed as an industrial area. Since 15 February 1954 they got no joy from the Administrator of Natal, but they tried and tried again. It was because of the tenacity, strength and stubbornness on the part of the Clairwood and District Ratepayers’ Association that they did not succeed. I remember, as a youth, the excellent public meetings that used to take place practically every three months in our fight to retain Clairwood as a residential area.

I want to say that this would not have been done to a White community. The White communities had the municipal vote and the parliamentary vote. If one House of Parliament decides that justice should be restored to the people of Clairwood, the word of this House of Parliament must be respected. Let us rededicate ourselves today. Come hell or high water, we will restore justice in Clairwood. After Clairwood is declared a residential area, its development must not be delayed as a result of town planning regulation obstacles.

I want to appeal to my colleague, the hon the Deputy Minister of Development Planning. I ask him, in the next 14 days that he has left, to do some Welfare work, because he is becoming a Minister of Welfare. Firstly, he must sort out my problem on the East Rand. Secondly, the Ministers’ Council of the House of Delegates is considering a proposal from our town planners next Thursday. Let us make an appointment: On Thursday afternoon I will request a group areas advertisement in Clairwood. I support the declaration of Clairwood as an open area; I support it wholeheartedly.

I think Clairwood was an open area all along but we are dealing within the context of present legislation.

I am not worried about what a mischievous reporter wrote about me and the Group Areas Act. I have never said in this House that I want the Group Areas Act to be retained. I challenge anybody, including the hon member for Spring field, to read my words in Hansard. That particular journalist realised that he had misquoted my hon colleague in the House of Assembly and corrected the article. I hope that those who read the original article will realise that the article was corrected in the following day’s newspaper. Do not therefore quote the incorrect article—quote the corrected article. I do not want to deal with it any longer. What I said was that even if the Group Areas Act remains, we must ask for a fair allocation of land. I said “while it remains”. I am addressing these words to the hon member for Springfield because he has the habit of misquoting me. He knows why he has that habit.

What did the Durban City Council do? Twenty three years after it failed to succeed with the Administrator of Natal it launched an appeal against the decision of the Natal Executive Committee to the Minister of Planning. In February 1975 the Minister of Planning upheld the appeal of the Durban City Council and declared 99 hectares of Clairwood as land for industrial purposes in terms of section 2 of the Physical Planning Act, No 8 of 1967.

Clairwood rotted. Clairwood was not a slum previously—there was an excellent community life. The people of Clairwood, as a result of the neglect on the part of the Durban City Council, provided their own facilities. Clairwood was one of the few areas where the Indian community purchased their own land and developed their own sporting facilities themselves. Clairwood produced the finest footballers and other sportman and among the best examples of community life that we have ever encountered. Then the area was frozen, and a sword of uncertainty hung over the area for many years. They also used another weapon, namely the ruthless implementation of the slums clearance legislation. I was a personal witness to this. It was the greatest tragedy in this country for beautiful homes to be destroyed by the ruthless application of the slums clearance legislation.

We cannot blame the Central Government for that. The slums clearance legislation was there for a special purpose. However, I know the types of homes that were declared slums in terms of the legislation and this is why I say it is a process of slow torture.

I want to mention another matter. I know of a lady in Clairwood who has to pay R1 800 in rates every year and she is a pensioner. She cannot sell her property or extend or improve it. The city council will not buy her property. What can she do in this situation?

Every minute we delay in finding a solution to the problems of Clairwood we are prolonging the agony of the people of that area. Worst still, the people of Clairwood pay among the highest rates in the whole city of Durban and I challenge the Durban City Council to disprove it. In return they get absolutely nothing; hardly any facilities or any amenities.

We took this matter up in 1985. The hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning acted in good faith and he had to. He then realised that he did not have the authority to act in the manner in which he had to. The hon the Deputy Minister of Development Planning is unable to rescind the approval granted for Clairwood to be used for industrial purposes, as there is no provision in the Physical Planning Act No 88 of 1967 for the withdrawal of such approval.

There is one alternative. We are not opposed to industrialisation. We believe a portion of Clairwood should be reserved for industry and there is general consensus on this. However, I also want to appeal to certain people of Clairwood not to go to the Minister privately—I am talking to the people of Clairwood—or to write privately to the Minister asking him that Clairwood should remain industrial as I do not think that there is anyone in this House who disagrees that there is a need for industry in Clairwood.

Mr Chairman, could the hon the Chairman of the Minister tell me if that situation where members of the public go privately to the Minister and ask him for this or that would prevail if the question of Clairwood had been resolved?

I did not refer to any member of the public.

Mr Chairman, in principle, had the question of Clairwood been resolved in one way or the other, would there still be scope for anyone to do this? The fault lies with the authorities for not resolving this dilemma.

Mr Chairman, to a very large extent the fault lies at the door of the Durban City Council. We have members of the Indian community who have pussy-footed with the Durban City Council. They wanted autonomy. [Interjections.] Yes, they wanted autonomy and we are aware of those people who pussy-footed with the Durban City Council.

I want my colleague, the hon the Deputy Minister for Development Planning, to give us a commitment today that he will act with the same speed as he acted when advertising Windmill Park. We want him to act faster. We might not wait until next Thursday and could possibly give him our memorandum on Monday, and he must advertise Clairwood. A portion of Clairwood …

Mr Chairman, as far as I am aware the group areas hearing on Clairwood has been held. I should like to ask the hon the Minister what new group area hearing he is referring to?

Mr Chairman, as a result of that hearing there was a decision about it being retained and left as a controlled area.

I also want to make an appeal to hon members and to members of the public not to overstretch ideology, because certain members representing certain organisations at the last hearing proposed that the area be left as a controlled area. As an ideal this is a good thing but it creates difficulties for the department.

Mr Chairman, I wish to make my point very clear. It is the wishes of the residents of Clairwood that the total area of Clairwood be residential.

Mr Chairman, the Clairwood Ratepayers’ Association which represents the people of Clairwood has made a proposal to the Ministers’ Council. We believe that they reflect the true interests of not only property owners but the residents of that area and the Ministers’ Council of the House of Delegates will be guided by the proposals put forward to us by the Clairwood and District Ratepayers’ Association.

Therefore, in answer to the question of the hon member for Springfield, if there are no legal obstacles and if the previous hearing can be used as a guide, we will welcome it. It will shorten the procedure and the time. However, I think we should unanimously rededicate ourselves today. As the late Prime Minister, Mr B J Vorster, once told us, if an injustice is meted out to one’s people, one should put right that injustice.

The story of Clairwood is one of the tragedies of injustice and unrighteousness in this country. This House will not rest. We know what the Durban City Council is after. We know its record. We know which party controlled the Durban City Council at the time this unjust act was committed, and the members of that party have not changed. The Indian community has no faith in them. If they want to try to contest an election in the House of Delegates, the Indian community will give them a giant thumbs down because it has no faith in that particular White political party, which now wants to contest elections in our House. Let them try! We will use Clairwood and other areas as our slogans throughout all areas in which Indians reside.

What I want to say is that if the problems of Clairwood are not solved now, a great many people in this House will seriously consider their future stand, and good friends may be lost.

Mr Chairman, I come in at the tail end of this debate. Much has already been said but I would like to present my small contribution this afternoon in order to do my fair share as far as Clairwood is concerned.

At the outset I want to say that I think the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning has dodged this debate. I say this because he gave an undertaking in this very House that he would do something with regard to the Clairwood issue. Since it is the eve of the departure of the hon the Deputy Minister from the portfolio he holds, I do not know how much of the message from here is going to reach the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. Perhaps the message will reach him, but I would like to know how he is going to present the emotional feelings of this House.

On the other hand, we note with some joy that the hon the Deputy Minister is now going to become the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in the House of Assembly. This is another sore point in Clairwood and as the Minister holding that portfolio I think he would play an important role if he were to go and investigate for himself the position of people living in Clairwood, and their health and welfare needs as well. I feel his viewpoint will be very well received by the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning himself, since he was previously his Deputy Minister.

I also speak in support of the motion moved by the hon member for Isipingo. I want to say that Clairwood has been raped as a result of White supremacy, which controls the destiny of the Black people in this country.

It is an accepted fact that the Whites have destroyed the respect the Black man enjoyed in the past. The motion before this House speaks for itself very ably. Clairwood has a historical background. Clairwood to us is what District Six is to Cape Town. What happened in District Six is what is happening in Clairwood. The authorities are dragging their feet, and that has been going on for far too long. We cannot simply sit back and accept this frustration. The destruction of Clairwood brings tears to the eyes of the once harmonious community, as quite rightly pointed out by the hon member for Isipingo. They provided the various facilities for themselves. They sweated, and with their meagre salaries were able to provide most temples. This they did with their own income, and it gave them joy to do so.

Today that area has become a slum area, and who has created this condition? It is none other than the Durban City Council. I put it to you that the Durban City Council has raped the Indian community and that homes that were habitable at one time have been brought down to the level of destruction simply because they wanted to convert that into an industrial area. They want to make it barren land. In many cases, where homes had been standing, it was by the will and desire of the Durban City Council that those homes were declared slums, so that they could destroy those homes and have fewer people who were well accommodated in that area. They also did so in order to increase the rates, since if the land was zoned for domestic use as residential areas, the rates would have been less than one quarter of the amounts payable at the moment for a vacant piece of land.

I ask: Is this not destroying the community of Clairwood? Are we to sit back here, from now on, and wait for some miracle to take place? I believe that there is a solution. It is the Nationalist Government that controls the province and the executive. Next week the Administrator of Natal together with the members of his executive will be in Cape Town with their budget. I would suggest that the solution to this problem is for the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, together with the Ministers’ Council, to discuss this issue with the province and the authorities that will be coming here, since the fate of Clairwood depends on the provincial council. They are the Nationalist Government; they control it. Why can they not put pressure on the Durban City Council? We would like to see this area transformed into the area it was at one time.

Clairwood is an eyesore at the moment. People are still living there by their hundreds; unfortunately they are even prepared to live in their present condition because they feel they have an historical background as far as Clairwood itself is concerned.

My humble plea to the hon the Deputy Minister is to take this message back, and not merely the message that is presented to him, but the emotional feelings of this House, to the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, and to the provincial executive, who are coming here next week.

Mr Chairman, it is once again a privilege for me to take part in a debate in this hon House. I want to thank hon members for their words of congratulation on my appointment to the Ministers’ Council of the House of Assembly.

As you all know, I have taken part in several debates in this House regarding legislation, motions moved by hon members and the discussion of our Budget Vote. We have had our differences of opinion during these debates, but what I think is important is that we emerged richer on the other side in regard to the knowledge we could share in these debates. In addition, I think we emerged with a better understanding of one another.

It is true that we live in a country in which different cultures exist, and what better opportunity have we had than to take part in debates in this House to learn about one another’s objectives as well as our basic needs in life.

I want to thank hon members for their friendliness and the wonderful attitude with which all hon members have accepted me in this House. I should also like to thank the various Chairmen of the House, who, over the past few years, have protected me when the situation became heated, and I hope that the new Chairman will do so today! [Interjections.]

I have made many friends in this House.

Is this a farewell speech?

Yes! I have always tried to help, where possible, and where I could see the need for help to be given.

I want to give hon members the assurance that I appreciate their friendship. Likewise, they can be assured of my friendship in the future. Indeed, today is probably my last appearance in this House before I take up my new assignment. I would therefore like to wish this House everything of the best for the future.

I think hon members will agree with me that this is not the correct time or the correct motion for a discussion of the Group Areas Act. I believe we can attend to that in the second part of this session, as the hon the State President pointed out in his speech in the House of Assembly at the beginning of October of last year that at that stage the Government will introduce certain proposals, at which time we can have this debate.

Today the discussion centres around Clairwood. I want to assure all hon members of this House that I am grateful for these contributions and that I fully understand their attitude and feelings re Clairwood. I fully agree that we must restore the happiness of the people of Clairwood and I fully concur with the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council when he says that Clairwood’s problems must be solved now. I think that now is the correct time and we must do something immediately.

I also want to assure hon members that we are looking at all the possible land available in the Durban metropolitan area in order to use it for this Indian community. My department is engaged in this process along with the Ministers’ Council of this House. The Durban Indian population is expected to increase from 500 000 to 800 000 within the next two decades. It is therefore understandable that my department, along with the Ministers’ Council and the Administration: House of Delegates, must do something to find the necessary land.

Coming back to the amendment of the hon member for Stanger, I think that he will agree with me that his amendment does not make sense in respect of the hon the Minister of Housing’s proposal for an Indian area in Clairwood.

That is his view, not mine.

Your members supported the motion.

Yes, but by arrangement.

I do not think I have to repeat all the facts in detail in connection with Clairwood, but we should return to 1985 when there was an investigation by the Group Areas Board. Hon members will remember that on the basis of the board’s findings the then Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture, now the hon member for Red Hill, together with the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council of the House of Delegates and the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, issued a joint press statement concerning Clairwood. In this statement it was reported that the following recommendations of the Group Areas Board had been approved:

1. (a) That the approval for the zoning in terms of the Physical Planning Act, 1967, of Clairwood as an industrial area be withdrawn.
2. (b) That the proclamation of 1951, which defined Clairwood in terms of the Group Areas Act, be withdrawn.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order, I mean a point of personal clarification. (Interjections.)

Order! The hon member for Havenside will either have to ask a question or state a point of order.

Mr Chairman, this is actually a point of clarification.

Order! The Chair will permit it. Proceed.

Mr Chairman, when I said that I supported the motion, I actually meant that I supported the amendment to the motion as moved by my acting leader.

Order! The point is taken. The hon the Deputy Minister may proceed.

Thank you, Sir. I repeat:

1. (b) That the proclamation of 1951, which defined Clairwood in terms of the Group Areas Act, be withdrawn; and
2. (c) The Clairwood area will not be proclaimed an Indian Group Area but remain controlled as it has been since 1950.

It was also stated at that time that this meant that the present owners and residents of Clairwood would be allowed to stay on in Clairwood and that they would be at liberty to develop their properties as provided for by the local town planning scheme.

I now wish to emphasise that the board reported that in its investigation it was found that the Indian community was opposed to Clairwood being proclaimed an Indian group area. I therefore think we should discuss that. The intention of the Press statement was accordingly to provide for a redevelopment of Clairwood to accommodate the local community.

Unfortunately, as has already been stated here, no legal authority exists for withdrawing the Ministerial approval granted in 1975 to permit industrial zoning in Clairwood and it became clear that any decision concerning the nature of future development in Clairwood rests, in terms of the town planning scheme, with the Durban Corporation and, in terms of the ordinance, with the Administrator of Natal.

Hon members asked why we did not amend the Act. It was possible to do so, but then, as hon members will agree, one would have opened doors throughout South Africa and I think one would have had chaos. It was not possible to amend the Act only in respect of Clairwood. However, both the Durban Corporation and the Natal …

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Deputy Minister whether he is aware of the fact that up to the time of the enactment of the Group Areas Act, the Durban City Council used the Slums Act to grab Indian land? Wherever Indian land was to be found, they grabbed it and after the inception of the Group Areas Act they used this merely to deprive Indians of their land and to uproot settled communities. Is the hon the Deputy Minister aware of that fact?

Mr Chairman, I shall take the hon member’s word for that. However, both the Durban Corporation and the Natal Provincial Administration were subsequently informed—hon members must listen to this—that the Department of Development Planning and the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning still considered that it would be desirable to redevelop Clairwood for residential purposes. What is more, that is still the attitude and the standpoint of our department and of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning today.

Following this, discussions between the Department of Development Planning, the Durban Corporation, the Administration: House of Delegates and the Natal Provincial Administration concerning the future of Clairwood, took place on 18 February 1987. A committee was set up to submit proposals to the Durban Corporation.

The working group of this committee has, during the past year, carried out surveys and has consulted the local community and various interest groups. The committee is now in the process of finalising its report and intends submitting it to the Durban City Council for approval towards the end of April this year, following which it will be released for public comment.

I think I must now rule that this report must be given to the Durban City Council before the end of April. Under the circumstances, and particularly in view of the findings of the Group Areas Board that the Indian community is opposed to the proclamation of Clairwood as an Indian group area, I now feel that the Durban Corporation should be given an opportunity to finalise its report and I hope this will be before the middle of May, before we take this matter any further. I think hon members will agree that we also need the co-operation of the Durban City Council, even at this stage, and I think we should not lose faith now. Let them study the report and then come forward with their report.

We have waited 30 years, we will wait for another month.

Well, yes.

They are at the moment doing everything that hon members of this House have called for. If they now fail—and I hope the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council will accept my word—I agree that intervention will be necessary and essential. I give this House that assurance, also on behalf of the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning. I will convey this debate to him and also the whole attitude of the House re Clairwood.

In answering the hon the Minister of Housing: Yes, we can finalise the matter of the East Rand next week. [Interjections.]

We will have a nice cocktail evening and announce it.

That is right. We must do that before next Thursday afternoon, because then I am leaving again.

In connection with the request of the hon the Minister of Housing to advertise Clairwood, I think we must investigate that. I must consult our legal advisers. On the other hand I want to plead that we give the Durban Corporation a chance. They have studied the report and we will come back to the Administration and the Ministers’ Council. I give our department’s word that we will then intervene. I believe—and this is our viewpoint—that Clairwood must be restored to a place where people can live happily.

Question put: That all the words after “That” stand part of the Question.

Question declared affirmed and amendment dropped.

Main question agreed to.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.