from owners of perpetual quitrent farms, Herbert, for reduction of quitrent.

laid on the Table the report of the Native Grievances Inquiry.

Regulations issued under section twelve of the Matches Duty Act, 1914.

Memorandum in connection with the South African Railways and Harbours Estimates of Expenditure on Capital and Betterment Works.

moved that the Loan Estimates for the year be referred to Committee of Supply.

The motion was agreed to.

announced that His Excellency the Governor-General had been informed of the following proposed amendment to the Estimates: that the vote for Railways and Harbours, which stood at two and a half millions, be increased by half a million. He moved that the amendment be referred to the Committee of Supply on the Estimates.

The motion was agreed to. TRANSVAAL PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

The Clerk, by direction of Mr. SPEAKER, read the following letter from the Administrator of the Transvaal, dated 27th June, 1914:

Sir,—I have the honour to forward the recommendations agreed to by the Provincial Council, in accordance with the provisions of section 87 of the South Africa Act, 1909, in connection with the following matters, i.e,: (1) Uniformity in the electoral laws; (2) amendment of the South Africa Act as to powers of the Council in regard to Executive Committees and the passing of Appropriation Ordinances; and (3) delegation to Council of power to legislate re miners’ phthisis.

The resolutions were as follows:

Uniformity in the Electoral Laws.—That the Council recommend to the Union Parliament of South Africa, “as per section 87 of the South Africa Act,” that, with the view of securing uniformity in the electoral laws of the various Provinces, no person eligible to be registered as a voter for any division within the Union shall have more than one vote in the election for members to the Union Assembly or Provincial Council, and that the polling hours at any such election shall be from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. (Labour cheers.)

Miners’ Phthisis: That whereas miners’ phthisis is an industrial disease contracted by underground workers on the gold mines in the Transvaal Province, and is, in the Union of South Africa, peculiar to the Transvaal Province, and whereas under section 85, sub-section (12), of the South Africa Act, the Provincial Council may legislate on all matters which, in the opinion of the Governor-General-in-Council are of merely local or private nature in the Province. That it, therefore, be a recommendation to the Union Parliament that any powers to legislate referring to miners’ phthisis be delegated to the Transvaal Provincial Council. (Labour cheers.)

No Confidence: That whereas the Executive Committee of this Council does not possess the confidence of this Council, and whereas no direct means exist by which this Council can dismiss the Executive Committee and elect a committee which will possess the confidence of this Council, and whereas it is desirable that the Executive Committee should be a body possessing the confidence of the majority in the Council, and whereas it is desirable that the majority in the Executive Committee should have power to introduce measures involving expenditure, this Provincial Council of the Transvaal respectfully requests the Parliament of the Union to amend the South Africa Act of 1909 so as

1. (1) To enable the majority in the Council to appoint an Executive Committee which will possess the confidence of the Council and from time to time to dismiss the Executive Committee, or failing that to dismiss the four elective members of such committee;
2. (2) To enable the majority in the Executive Committee to introduce Ordinances involving expenditure and Ordinances providing for appropriation of the Provincial Revenue Fund.

asked whether the letter and the correspondence would be recorded in the Votes and Proceedings.

said a full report would be recorded in Hansard.

asked the Prime Minister whether he intended to give any Parliamentary time for the consideration of the resolutions.

No.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours (1) What instructions have been issued to contractors in the Cape Peninsula by the Administration or its officers with regard to the non-employment of coloured mechanics on work for the Administration; and (2) on what principle does the Administration act in laying down for its contractors the type of employees that shall be employed ?

None; but in consonance with the Administration’s policy of encouraging the employment of white men as far as possible, contracts for minor works and agreements in connection with the erection of buildings, etc., provide that so far as skilled labour is concerned, white men only shall be engaged, unless consent in writing has been given to any departure being made from this condition. I may mention, however, that in all cases in which contractors have approached the Administration with a reasonable explanation, e.g., shortage of white labour, this condition has been relaxed. (2) The Administration’s standard form of agreement for minor works contains a proviso such as that already indicated, which is strictly adhered to or relaxed, according to local conditions and prevailing circumstances. The practice generally throughout the Union is to leave this matter to the discretion of contractors, who, as a rule, do not employ coloured labour for skilled work. In exceptional cases, where injustice was obviously being done to white men. or where“ the conditions of contract were being departed from without authority, the Administration would, of course, interfere.

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government as soon as possible to have the graves of the fallen in the late war, which are still unprotected, and which run the risk of not only losing all marks of identification, but also of entirely disappearing, fenced in with wire or protected in some other way?

The care of the graves of those who fell on both sides during the late war is in the hands of the Provincial Administrations. If the Administration concerned is advised of any graves which still remain unprotected, I am sure they will be attended to.

for Mr. M. Alexander (Cape Town, Castle) asked the Minister of Justice whether the Government is prepared to take into consideration the prayer of the petition presented to this House on the 23rd instant, from D. J. du Toit, a member of the Duke of Edinburgh’s Own Volunteer Regiment, whose conviction in a Magistrate’s Court for contravening the Defence Act was not, on appeal, supported by the Attorney-General and was quashed by order of the Supreme Court, praying for consideration of the losses sustained by him?

The Government is prepared to take the prayer of the petition in question into consideration. I may add, however, that except in very exceptional circumstances, I am not prepared to recommend any compensation in cases where a person has been duly convicted in a Magistrate’s Court and this conviction is quashed on appeal or review.

for Mr. M. Alexander (Cape Town, Castle) asked the Minister of the Interior what progress has been made since last session in the matter of Imperial naturalisation, and whether the Government proposes to introduce any legislation in connection with this mutter during the present session?

The Imperial Government, after consultation with the Colonial Dominions, drafted a Bill making provision for Imperial naturalisation, but I have not heard whether this Bill has been introduced into the House of Commons.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he will favourably consider giving effect to recommendation No. 210 of the Railways and Harbours Grievances Commission’s report, which says: The Commission recommends (1) that the hours of duty of masters, mates and engineers of the Natal Tug Staff should not exceed 12 per day; (2) that overtime be paid for all time worked in excess of 12 hours per day?

The reply to this question is in the negative. Port work fluctuates considerably, being governed by the number of vessels using the harbour. On certain days the work is such as necessitates the men being on duty for longer periods than on others, but at other times the work is light; and taking one day with another, the average time actually worked by the men is not excessive. The majority of the masters, mates and engineers of the Natal tugs are salaried officers, and, in fixing their salaries, due consideration was given to the nature of the duties they are required to perform.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he will give effect to recommendation No. 332 of the Railway Grievances Commission of 1912, which says: The Commission recommends that servants be allowed to retire on pension at any time after they have reached the age of 50, and have completed 25 years’ service, the pension granted in each such case to be calculated actuarially on the period of service and interest in the fund in a similar manner to pensions granted at the ordinary retiring age?

The retiring age is governed by Act of Parliament, and it is not proposed to introduce amending legislation in this respect, especially as the views of the staff, as voiced by their representatives who gave evidence before the Select Committee, were carefully considered while the Railways and Harbours Service Bill was under discussion by the House. Under certain conditions laid down by law, 50 is at present the retiring age for certain grades.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention has been directed to a pamphlet published by the Hon. J. N. Orpen entitled “Natives, Drink, Labour, and Our Duty ”; and (2) whether Government, as requested by several representative assemblies of religious bodies, will take into consideration the subject-matter of that pamphlet, namely, the question of so consolidating and levelling up the liquor laws of the Union as to secure the more effective administration of the laws dealing with the prohibition of the sale of intoxicating liquor to natives.

(1) Yes; I have read the pamphlet. (2) The Government has the question of consolidating the liquor laws of the Union under consideration, and in considering this question the views of a man of such wide experience as the Hon. Mr. Orpen will, of course, receive due attention.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether Mr. Nicholson, Table Bay Harbour Engineer, had reported to the Government on the proposed works in connection with the entrance to the Durban Harbour; and, if so, would the Minister lay the report and plans on the Table of the House or cause them to be published for general information?

Mr. Nicholson has not reported specifically on the harbour entrance at Durban, but he submitted a report in connection with the strengthening of the south breakwater, which incidentally deals with the question of the harbour entrance. I have to-day laid upon the Table of the House a memorandum in connection with the suggested alterations and improvements at the south breakwater, and a plan is attached to this memorandum showing what is proposed.

asked the Minister of Justice whether it is a fact that the Master of the High Court, Kimberley, has attained the age limit, and, if so, will he state why this officer has not been retired ?

Mr. Ford, the Assistant Master at Kimberley, was due for retirement last year, but in view of the new Administration of Estates Act which came into force on the 1st October, 1913, and the desirability of having his experience in putting the Act into operation, it was decided to retain the services of Mr. Ford till the end of the year.

asked the Minister of the Interior on June 23: (1) Whether leper patients have been removed from Emjanyana Leper Asylum to Robben Island; and (2) if so, (a) how many such patients there are on Robben Island; (b) what was the reason for their removal; (c) have promises been made to them that they will be returned to Emjanyana; and, if so, (d) when will such promises be carried out?

replied (1) Yes. (2) (a) 71. (b) Serious misconduct or escaping, (c) The patients have been informed that the question of their retransfer to Emjanyana depends upon their good conduct and the availability of suitable accommodation there.

replied as follows to a question asked by Mr. F. H. P. Creswell (Jeppe) on June 22: The number of men (A and B cases) who have worked not less than two years or more than three years underground during the four years previous to the date of application who received awards under the Miners’ Phthisis Act was, for the period March to May, 1913, inclusive, 208, and for the period March to May, 1914, inclusive, 238.

asked when the Minister of Finance was going to take the fifteenth Order of the day, the consideration of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Reports of a Select Committee on Public Accounts-

replied that there were more urgent matters than that, surely.

said it was an important matter.

said he desired to ask the Minister of Finance a question of which he had given private notice: Whether it is a fact that the Opposition in the Transvaal Provincial Council offered to agree to the voting of the necessary supply for one month, and that consequently there is no immediate danger of the Provincial services being suspended in that Province unless the Executive Committee refuse to accede to this suggestion?

said that he had no information on the ‘question.

moved for leave to introduce a Bill— (ironical cheers)—to amend, in certain respects, the Public Service and Pensions Act (Act No. 29 of 1912), and further to amend certain provisions of the other laws relating to pensions.

was understood again to refer to the report of the Select Committee on Public Accounts, and to say that it was really an important matter. The committee had spent three weeks’ solid work, and was nothing to be done?

said there would be an opportunity of bringing forward these things later, but the Estimates were so belated now. (Hear, hear.) While the financial measures were under consideration in “another place,” there would be time to consider the matter the hon. member had in mind.

Leave was granted.

moved that the Bill be read a first time.

The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a first time.

The second reading was set down for tomorrow.

said that the total increase in that department was something like 67, and there was a large increase in the local allowances and the miscellaneous allowances. He wanted to direct the attention of the House to the difference in the cost of the magistrates in the various Provinces, and the large cost in Natal as compared with the Orange Free State and the Cape Province. The hon. member gave some instances, such as in Durban the cost was £8,036 and in Maritzburg £5,421, while in Cape Town it was £5,855 and in Bloemfontein £3,081, while in Port Elizabeth only £2,916.

said that as regards the increase, there were three additional magistrates at Maclear, Elliot, and Louis Trichardt. As regards the question of clerks, there had been an increase of 46 in clerical assistants—15 in the Cape, 10 in Natal, and 10 in Transvaal, and 8 in the Orange Free State. In regard to “clerks and interpreters,” their numbers had gone down, and there had been a re-shuffling of posts. The whole question of the magisterial service was a difficult one. His own opinion was that, if they could re-arrange their magistracies at the present day, they could probably have a saving, but new towns were rising, and they had continual requests for new magistrates. It was again a question of their big distances in that country.

He proposed to ask the Public Service Commission to go into the whole question of the magistrates. The Reorganisation Commission recommended the abolition of a number of assistant magistrates. He believed that two or three were abolished. This was a question that would have to be tackled. If necessary, a Commission outside the Public Service Commission would have to be appointed to go into the matter. The Minister went on to refer to the inadequacy of the relief staff, and mentioned that in the present Estimates they had got eight or nine additional clerks for relief purposes. Alluding to the vote generally, he said that the real increase was only £8,000, owing to the fact that £10,000 was taken off last year. A considerable amount was due to ordinary increments, which alone accounted for £5,240. Proceeding, the Minister outlined the principal features of the system upon which local allowances were based, and referred to a number of anomalies which had arisen under the grading adopted by the Public Service Commission, pointing out that they had magistrates drawing personal £1,000 a year who were on a scale with a maximum of £600 a year. In the Cape and Natal the men were, to a large extent, on their scales, but in the Transvaal and Orange Free State the men were very largely drawing personal salaries.

drew the Minister’s attention to the representations made by the Natal Law Society in reference to the high cost of serving process by Messengers of the Magistrates’ Courts, particularly in the country districts of Natal. He pointed out that the Law Society desired that the department should enforce upon messengers the duty of appointing deputies to effect service in the more distant parts.

said that owing to the vicinity of coal mines to Middelburg, it was essential to appoint an assistant magistrate to reside at Wit bank. At present the resident magistrate often had to be away, with the result that great difficulties Were experienced by the local people.

said he had listened with very great interest to the speech of the Minister of Justice, the picture of a good man struggling with adversity. (Laughter.) He could cordially endorse everything that the Minister had said about the number of magistrates, the increase in the vote, etc. The greatest foes to anything approaching economy were the local members. Let the Minister try to cut off an assistant magistrate, and then see what he would have. Another great foe to anything like economy was the Civil Service Commission, with its artificial system of grading, beautiful on paper, but ruinous to the finances. (Hear, hear.) There was only one remedy for this state of affairs and that was a serious depression of the sort they had not long ago when they would have to retrench because they would have no money to pay, when they would have to do it whether it was hard or not, and whether the local member squealed or whether he did not squeal. He could see it coming. A few more days like they spent on the previous day, and they would soon find that they would have to do a lot of unpleasant things. That was what brought those things about. They only wanted the sort of telegram that came down on the previous day asking members to vote against their consciences and so support the party. He knew those little towns that were the result of “speculatie.” (Cries of “No, no.”) He had been long enough in the country to know. They had the canteen, the two agents, the church and the rest of the paraphernalia, and then the town was set up and there was constant pressure for a Magistrate.

Because we can’t afford it. Continuing, he said that that hon. member would be the first to squeal when the income tax came down to £200. He would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Justice to the suspension of a Magistrate which had boon brought to his (Mr. Merriman’s) notice. This gentleman was suspended upon some vague complaint and then was kept out of his emoluments for three months, and in consequence the poor man was exceedingly distressed and disturbed. He (Mr. Merriman) went through the papers, and nothing struck him more than the extraordinary conflict between the Department of Justice, which had to do with Magistrates, and the Civil Service Commission, which exercised some sort of disciplinary influence over them. That, sooner or later, was going to lead to a lot of trouble. In this case it had led to an uncomfortable amount of friction. The gentleman in question was a zealous officer, if not altogether discreet, and kept his magistracy in good order. He (Mr. Merriman) thought that some line should be drawn between the Civil Service Commission and the Department of Justice and these Magistrates. Another thing was that the Minister seemed to be excessively prejudiced by the Civil Service Commission as to the appointment of Magistrates. A man might be a first-class man and suitable for some place, and he was whipped off to another place by the Civil Service Commission. The Minister of Justice should not be tied up in this way, because it might be a very serious matter one of these days.

said he hoped that, notwithstanding the remarks of the right hon. member for Victoria West, the Minister would see that the necessary reorganisation was brought about. There was a place named Dealesville in his constituency, the hon. member went on, which was miles away from any other place, which had no Magistrate. The people in that part of the country were put to great expense by the present position, as they had to go 70 miles to Boshof in order to get their cases tried. The Minister might transfer the Acting Magistrate from Boshof to Dealesville, which would have the effect of the matter being dealt with in a satisfactory manner. The Free State was always left out in the cold.

urged that more magistrates were required in the north-western districts. There were distances of 180 miles between them, and in Rietfontein the assistant magistrate should be replaced by a magistrate.

asked the Minister a question with regard to the appointment of a special Justice of the Peace at Brandvlei. He (Mr. Watermeyer) had handed in a petition on the subject, and he would like some information from the Minister.

said people sometimes were sent to gaol, although they were innocent of any crime, simply because no capable interpreters were available. Why, he asked, although judges, magistrates, and everyone often understood all that was going on should everything be interpreted into English? He trusted that wherever the lawyers and every member of the community spoke Dutch, bilingual magistrates would be appointed. The hon. member for Boshof had said that at Boshof they had one magistrate to spare; he trusted that man would be sent to the Eastern Free State. Magistrates who could only speak English should be placed in the large towns.

said he hoped the Minister would consider, as his predecessors had considered favourably, the advisability of constituting Benoni a separate magistracy. (Mr. Metriman: “Hear, hear,” and laughter.) His predecessors had given a certain amount of favourable consideration to this matter.

Do you want a right to a prison and a gallows? (Laughter.)

We would consider that, too. (Renewed laughter.)

Proceeding, Mr. Madeley said that during the July troubles they found that the magistrate at Benoni was very much handicapped because he could do nothing without first appealing to Boksburg. It was essential at times that something should be done at once. The development of that part of the country was towards the east, away from Boksburg. Benoni should be made a separate magistracy with Springs attached.

said he wished to emphasise the remarks of the hon. member for Rouxville. Everyone, including the witnesses and the attorneys, and even the magistrate, knew Dutch, yet everything had to be interpreted into English. Often the English was very bad, but simply in order to facilitate matters for the magistrate a good deal of time was lost and things went wrong.

said he thought the Minister should appoint more Special Justices of the Peace, the cost being very low. The work was undertaken in a public-spirited manner by men who were able to do it. He pointed out that there were two Special Justices of the Peace in Natal, one receiving £50 and the other £120. He thought they should both be placed on the same basis.

asked the Minister for information regarding the new Magistrate’s Court for Cape Town.

said he would like a more definite reply from the Minister with regard to the consolidation of the liquor laws. He would like to know whether the Government intended to introduce a consolidated liquor law next session. The divergences of the liquor laws in the different Provinces were very great indeed. He hoped that when the law was introduced it would mean the levelling up of the laws to those in the Free State and the Transvaal with regard to the prohibition of the sale of liquor to natives. It had been said that prohibition in the Transvaal was a mistake, but if liquor was not prohibited to the natives there there would be more drunkenness and crime than there was at present. One remedy would be the closed compound system, such as they had in Kimberley. During the year before last the drunkenness among natives in Johannesburg amounted to 1 to every 23 adults, but there were many places in the Cape Colony which were worse than that. In Cape Town, Green Point, and Sea Point the proportion was 1 to 12 among the adult coloured people, and Kimberley was even worse, because of the free sale of liquor to Beohuanas. In those districts of light, religion and education, Worcester, Stellenbosch and Paarl the corresponding figures were 1 in 23, 1 in 24, and 1 in 19 respectively. There had been a vast increase in the consumption of Cape brandy —he did not know what kind of brandy— but he thought it was dop mixed with something else. The Cape brandy sent to the Transvaal during the second half of last year was 15 per cent, more than during the first half. The hon. member went on to refer to methylated spirits coming in not from the Cape, but from Natal, and being consumed by the natives on the Rand. That was a matter, he said, which merited the attention of the Government, because there was a great deal of that trade going on, to the destruction of the natives.

referred to the extreme difficulty of people living in his constituency being able to see a Justice of the Peace owing to their being employed during the daytime.

brought up the case of Mr. Haynes, who had, he said, been arrested during the time of Martial Law, and sent to Middelburg under armed escort, where he had been brought before the Magistrate, and had been detained for 14 days. He had been promised that his hotel expenses would be paid, as there was no other accommodation for him, but that had not been done. Surely if the Government detained a man away from his town, the responsibility for his keep rested with the Government, whether the man was in or out of gaol. He had to report himself twice every day, and had not been under arrest exactly.

said it was rather of interest to know why that man had been taken to Middelburg; and if that man had been arrested the proper place was either in gaol or out on bail.

said he would not have spoken but for the statement made by the hon. member for Rouxville (Mr. Steytler). There was no Assistant Resident Magistrate at Hoopstad, but at Bultfontein, as the Minister of Lands would tell the hon. member. He (Mr. Van Niekerk) had never said that they had too many officials in the Boshof district. He had merely suggested that the Assistant Resident Magistrate might be transferred from Boshof to Dealesville, in which case the services of the Special Justice of the Peace at Boshof could be dispensed with.

said that the Public Accounts Committee had taken evidence on the question of the collection of native poll tax in the Orange Free State, and had heard both sides. They had come to the unanimous conclusion that the collection of the native poll tax by the magistrates in the Orange Free State appeared to be unnecessarily costly, and the committee saw no objection to the tax being collected by the police as formerly.

asked that the Minister’s attention should be devoted with regard to certain relieving officers in his district. There was considerable dissatisfaction among the staff about the scale of increments. In Natal the annual increments were £12 from £100 to £180, and £15 from £180 to £300; while in the Transvaal the increments were from £15 to £20 per, annum.

said he would like some explanation from the Minister of Justice with regard to an announcement which had caused a great deal of disquietude among a large section of the population. He referred to a notice which appeared in the “Government Gazette ” on June 26 in relation to the annexation of Dassen Island. (Laughter.) He trusted that there was nothing of ulterior significance about this matter. (Renewed laughter.)

in replying, said that Witbank was an important centre, but they had demands from more important places still for assistant magistrates. Swellendam was a very old place, but it was still without an assistant magistrate. It was impossible to satisfy all the numerous demands, as the costs would be too high. There was absolute equality for the two languages, and the instructions to the magistrates were that they should take the evidence in the language of the witnesses. Of course it entirely depended on the witnesses, but he could assure hon. members that he personally had been engaged in cases in which not a word of English had been spoken. (Hear, hear.) As to the question of good interpreters, he would do his utmost to have that matter properly dealt with. Replying to the remarks of the hon. member for Boshof, the Minister said the difficulty was that, if the Assistant Resident Magistrate was removed from Boshof to Dealesville there would at once be requests for clerks, and thus it would go on. Replying to further remarks, the Minister said that an assistant resident magistrate had exactly the same jurisdiction as a resident magistrate.

proceeding in English, said that he could assure the hon. member for Jeppe that there was no ulterior significance in the announcement with regard to Dassen Island. (Laughter.) It was merely a question of formality. With regard to the points raised by the hon. member for Klip River, he (the Minister) had dealt with the question of leave in his speech. As to increments, increments were all on the same basis now, but there might be questions of personal rights which under the Act of Union could not be touched. As to the question of poll tax, that was a matter which had not yet been dealt with, and it was still the subject of correspondence. With reference to the case of Mr. Haynes, he had nothing to do with the ordering of Mr. Haynes. The order was given by the military authorities during Martial Law. He was taken by a police officer to Middelburg, and, instead of being lodged in gaol, he was, at his own request, placed in an hotel. The police had no business to put the man in an hotel. He would look into the matter again and communicate with the Defence Department. The hon. member for Roodepoort had raised the question of Justices of the Peace. The hon. member had apparently forgotten the Bill which had been passed, and under which they appointed a large number of Commissioners of Oaths. No Justices of the Peace would be appointed in fixture excepting those who had certain functions. If there were any difficulties such as the hon. member spoke about, he would be prepared to look into the matter. With regard to the point raised by the hon. member for Cape Town, Gardens, nothing definite had yet been done, but he hoped to be able to discuss plans which had been drawn for converting the building at the corner of Wale and Keerom-street into a Magistrate’s Court. There was an idea of converting the old court in Caledon-square, but he thought they would be able to carry through arrangements by which they would be able to convert the building he had mentioned into a Magistrate’s Court. The hon. member for Tembuland had spoken at some length about the liquor law. He (the Minister) did not think the Government would introduce a consolidated liquor law next session. (Hear, hear.) That was one of the most thorny subjects to deal with, and a subject which, he thought, would require a special session to itself. Replying to the hon. member for Umlazi, the Minister explained the reason for the difference in the salary paid to the resident Justice of the Peace at Richmond and a similar officer employed elsewhere, and added that the question of Magistrates’ Courts would have to be dealt with next session, and they proposed then to deal with the question of resident Justices of the Peace. Touching on the position of special Justices of the Peace in the Cape Province, he remarked that it was found that their jurisdiction was so low that people preferred to have a Periodical Court. A Periodical Court was held at Brandvlei. He sympathised with people who had to go long distances to court, but they could not avoid it in a country like South Africa. They could not put a court down at everybody’s door. With regard to Benoni, he knew it was an important place, but there it was merely a question of status. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg had Brought up the question of the service of process in Natal, and had quoted the extreme case which had been put forward by the Natal Law Society. Before Union this service was done by the police, who complained to him (the Minister) that it was not part of their duty. He (the Minister) had to admit that they were correct, and if the police were under him it might have been possible for him to order them to do this work. The fees were made as low as possible, but he would say to the House that he had the greatest difficulty in getting messengers to do the work as they said the return was so small. It was again the problem of the long distance.

With regard to the statement of the right hon. member for Victoria West with regard to the suspension of a Magistrate he (the Minister) had all the papers. In that case he (the Minister) did not act blindly, because he took the advice of the responsible law advisers. He held an inquiry and it was only then that he took steps to suspend the official. He passed the papers to the Civil Service Commission, and as a result of the inquiry he accepted the recommendation of the Commission. From his very voluminous correspondence he (the Minister) could see that this official was a very able man but, perhaps, as the right hon. member had said, he was not altogether discreet. The Commission considered he should be placed in some other department of the Service, but the official instead of being satisfied considered he was suffering under a grievance. He (the Minister) thought the official was his (the official’s) worst enemy. Now he was awaiting the recommendation of the Civil Service Commission as to the post which should be given this official. He (the Minister) was afraid that all kinds of things had been said against him behind his back, but he could assure the House he had no personal bias and that he consulted the head of the department and took every step with his full concurrence.

said he did not question the bona-fides of the Minister, but lie did not think any official should be suspended and his emoluments stopped without any absolute charge being placed before him, and he being allowed to reply there to. The Minister had no right to suspend a man and also stop his emoluments, because it was a serious matter for a man with a wife and family.

That was done. I could not do otherwise. The Public Service Act says that suspension must be accompanied by the charge in writing.

Was the whole charge submitted to the officer for his report? I am told that no charge was submitted to him.

said that the charge was laid in writing. There were various complaints. He usually asked the inspecting Magistrate to hold an inquiry to see whether there was any complaint brought forward. When he got the report he either dismissed a charge or laid a definite charge and suspended the official and handed the papers over to the Public Service Commission.

said the Minister must not forget that his hon. friend and himself represented a sparsely populated part of the colony where people lived far apart and where the Magistrate of the district was 100 to 150 miles away from parts of his district. Those periodical courts were absolutely necessary, and special Justices of the Peace were also necessary. The Minister should not forget the moral influence which was exercised by special Justices of the Peace, who greatly helped to keep law and order. He hoped the Minister would not think it was a light thing to take away those J.P.’s.

said he was not aware that he had removed any J.P.’s.

said he hoped the Minister would remember that, the official he had referred to had been detained, and was not allowed to go home.

The vote was agreed to.

said that vote showed a very large increase, an increase of £63,000. He thought it would be a good thing if they returned to the old Cape system where the local people had to pay for the police. He would also draw attention to the increase in past service pay. With regard to the increase in the cost of the police, he quoted extracts from a letter which had appeared in the “Cape Times” signed by “Ex-Head Constable.” The writer of the letter who appeared to have a considerable knowledge of the police, said: “As I had only recently left the Police Force, in which I served for a great many years as a head constable, thus I am in a position to give you the true facts. Before Union the Gape Colony was policed by the C.M.P., ordinary Police, and a sprinkling of Divisional Police. Farmers have frequently told me that they received more attention in those days than since. I will refer to this later on, and also give you the reasons. Before Union we had a Commissioner of Police stationed at Cape Town. He was in command of the C.M.P. scattered over the Colony, and also the Cape Peninsula Police. He used to have an assistant as district inspector, but this was found unnecessary, and the assistant was placed in charge of a district, viz., East London. The Commissioner drew a salary of £650 to £700 a year. Now since Union let us see what we have in the Cape Colony. First of all, in Cape Town, you have a Deputy Commissioner, drawing £800 a year, an assistant, as a Divisional Inspector, with £600 a year. At Graham’s Town you have a Deputy Commissioner, with £800 a year, and a Divisional Inspector, with £600 a year. At Kimberley you have a Deputy Commissioner, with £800 a year, and a Divisional Inspector, with £600 a, year, or an assistant or C.I.D. Inspector; and you have also at Kimberley a S.A.M.R. officer with £800 a year, and an Adjutant with £400 a year. The result of all this is that you are expending in salaries alone £5,000 odd, as against £700 before Union. Now, as regards the staff: Before Union the Commissioner at the Cape had a staff of six clerks; now each Deputy Commissioner has-that number or more. Before Union the Commissioner used the railway when inspecting, now each Deputy Commissioner has a motor-car and chauffeur. Now, as a result of all this are the farmers being well served? They are not The rank and file are less, and the men on the stations have been decreased, in many case3 to such an extent that no patrolling can be done. The native privates have been disarmed, so they have become useless, and won’t go out at night, as they say, rightly, they have nothing to protect themselves with… This takes me through the Free State and many other parts of the Transvaal. I find in these Provinces the same extravagance —S.A.P. and S.A.M.R. overlapping; numerous staffs, all well-paid, and a grumbling and dissatisfied rank and file. The dissatisfaction exists because the S.A.M.R. seem to look down upon the S.A.P., because the latter have to do police work, the former thinking that it is infra dig. Continuing, Mr. Jagger said that that letter revealed a very unsatisfactory state of affairs from a financial point of view. He hoped the Minister would look into the matter and let them have some information about it.

said that he had referred the letter of “Ex-Head Constable ” to the Commissioner of Police, who had commented on it as follows: “With regard to the letter under reference, the allegations are all so general and inaccurate that a refutation is difficult, but as it is the Minister’s wish that they should be dealt with I will endeavour to dissect them and deal with them under the following heads: Police efficiency in the Cape; staffs and salaries; inspections by motor as against railway transport; alleged decrease in “rank and file ”; disarmament of native police; overlapping by police and South African Mounted Riflemen; alleged dissatisfaction due to view taken of South African Police by South African Mounted Riflemen.

“ Police Efficiency in the Cape.—Prior to Union and indeed to a certain extent up to 31-3-13 the Cape was policed by the Cape Mounted Police, Urban Police, Kimberley Police, and the Rural Police, the latter force being subject to the individual direction of some 90 magistrates and assistant magistrates. The Rural Police could hardly be called a “force,” as police duties as they are generally regarded, appeared to be quite a secondary consideration, and the time of its members was largely taken up in work in and around the magistrates” offices. Consequently inspections were almost unknown, patrols were neglected, and the investigation of crime undertaken only, where it could hardly be avoided; and there were no uniform returns or records. They were, too, uniformed in a manner which could only be called ridiculous, and, being subject to the supervision and direction of Civil Servants, there was an almost entire absence of discipline. All this is amply evidenced by the inspections which have since taken place and by the knowledge of the ability and general demeanour of those who have been brought into the depots for training; and it is not surprising that such was the case, seeing that the police of the Cape were working under different Acts and systems. Some of the police were good, but many were very indifferent, and it should be obvious to anybody that a uniform system throughout, as is now the case, with constant inspections by officers of proved ability and a method of control under which each police post is answerable to a district commandant, who is controlled by the Deputy Commissioner of the particular division, this officer in turn being answerable to headquarters, must be more efficient. Unfortunately, before reorganisation, crime statistics were not maintained in the Cape, so that I have no figures with which to compare the past year’s results, but I am informed by my officers now serving in the Cape and who served there before reorganisation, that cases of crime detected have practically doubled under the new condition. “Head Constable ” alleges that farmers have frequently told him that they received more attention in the old days than since, but this, of course, is a wild statement by a man with a grievance and is totally devoid of truth. It is strange, too, that while any member of the public is at liberty to communicate with me direct in the event of there being any complaint to air that none have seen any necessity to approach me.

“Staffs and Salaries.—At the date of Union the following officers were in command in the Cape and drew the salaries stated: Commissioners, Cape Mounted Police, salary £800 per annum; District Inspector, Cape Mounted Police, salary £700 per annum; District Inspector, Cape Mounted Police, salary £450 per annum; Chief of C.I.D., Kimberley, salary £1,100 per annum; Chief Inspector, C.I.D., Kimberley, salary £700 per annum; Inspector, C.I.D., Kimberley, salary £600 per annum; total, £4,360.

“On reorganisation we appointed: Deputy Commissioner, Cape Western, salary £700 per annum; Divisional Inspector, Cape Western, salary £560 per annum; Deputy Commissioner, Cape Eastern, salary £800 per annum; Divisional Inspector, Cape Eastern, salary £550 per annum; Deputy Commissioner, Kimberley, salary £1,100 per annum; Chief Detective Inspector, Kimberley, salary £700 per annum; C.I.D. Inspector, Kimberley, salary £600 per annum; total, £5,000.

“ The only real addition is an additional Deputy Commissioner for the Cape (this Province now being split into two divisions—Eastern and Western), as the two District Inspectors formerly employed have both gone to ‘Defence,’ and as a set-off ninety (90) magistrates have been relieved of police control. The headquarters of the 5th Regiment, South African Mounted Riflemen, are certainly at Kimberley, and the Commander draws, I think, £700 per annum (and not £800 as stated), but this is a part of the defence policy. As regards staff, the Commissioner, Cape Town, before Union had a staff of assistants under him, including typists and messengers, numbering thirteen (13), and in addition there were three members of the Department of Justice dealing exclusively with rural police work. The staff of the Deputy Commissioner, Cape Town, still numbers thirteen, but the Department of Justice has now the use of the services for other work of the three clerks who were formerly employed in connection with the control of the rural police. Members of the force employed on the staff of the Deputy Commissioner, Graham’s Town, number seven (7), and this may be regarded as an increase. As a set off against this, there would foe the multitude of men formerly employed in the offices of the magistrates on clerical work of whom there is no record, but I have no hesitation in saying that, under the present conditions, there has been an enormous saving in men formerly employed in magistrate’s offices, but now released for police work proper.”

Business was suspended at 12.45 p.m.

continued reading from Commissioner Truter’s reply as follows:

“ The idea of ‘Ex-Head Constable’ that before Union inspections by the use of the railway were considered sufficient, confirms my own opinion that inspection work was practically neglected. It must be perfectly obvious that only a small proportion of the stations in the Cape Province could be reached by railway alone, and even as regards those places which could be reached by rail, the delays which would occur owing to the infrequency of trains and the consequent loss of the time of highly-paid officers and their subsistence would in itself more than outweigh the whole cost of motor transport. Nowadays every police post is visited, and surprise inspections are possible; while before Union, where inspections were carried out at all, they were probably, well advertised days beforehand. To my mind, the value of the saving of time and subsistence and frequent and surprise inspections cannot be over-estimated, if a police force is to be made at all efficient. A case was recently brought to my notice where, at a police post in the Cape, not before inspected, the District Commandant arrived suddenly by motor, and found at 9.30 a.m. nobody on duty. Later the members of the force attached to that particular post appeared in mufti, and found the District Commandant in possession. It is unlikely that such a state of affairs will ever again be found at that particular post.

“Alleged Decrease in Rank and File.—This allegation, like most of the others, is, of course, entirely erroneous. In the districts now controlled by the South African Police the number of police, exclusive of commissioned officers, at the date of Union was 1,838. On the 1st April, 1914, the number was 2,101, or an increase of 263.

“Disarmament of Native Police in the Cape.—The question of permitting native ponce to carry firearms is one which received very careful consideration when the South African Police Regulations were being framed, and as a result it was decided to limit the possession of firearms to European members of the force. It had been the practice in the Cape Province for the native privates in the Cape Mounted Police to be armed—and this practice had been in vogue for a number of years—but the question as to the fitness of a native to carry a revolver is a very serious one, and one that is more often than not properly answered in the negative. The native constables along the Reef are faced with a much more serious problem in keeping in order the native population than are the native constables in the more pacific Cape Province; not only do they have superior numbers to contend with, but also more desperate individuals—and yet they are not armed with revolvers—only exceptionally with assegais in addition to the customary knobkerrie. There being no reason to make any difference between the native constable on the turbulent Rand and the native constable in the peaceful Eastern Province, instructions were issued on February 6 last that no native constables were to be permitted to carry firearms— and as a consequence they have been withdrawn. The fact that no adverse reports in this connection have been received from the various officers concerned would tend to show that the step has not operated adversely in relation to the efficiency of the native constables in the section of the country under discussion. To arm native or coloured constables with revolvers is certainly not a commendable practice, and following the principle adopted in the Transvaal division it was decided that arms for native constables in the Cape were unnecessary. This procedure answers very well, and we have so far seen no reason to depart there from. Native constables in the Transvaal are always accompanied at night by a European constable, and cannot effect the arrest of a European on their own authority.

“ Overlapping by Police and South African Mounted Riflemen.—As I have before stated, the policing of the Union by two separate forces was the outcome of the policy of the Government in regard to defence, but if that policy is admitted to be sound then there is no overlapping—the South African Mounted Riflemen control certain well defined areas and the South African Police the remainder, and the only duplication is in the headquarters’ control of the separate forces necessary under the present system. Beyond this I know nothing, and seeing that no concrete case is quoted by ‘Ex-Head Constable,’ I am unable to comment further.

“Alleged Dissatisfaction Due to View-taken of South African Police by South African Mounted Riflemen.—I know of no actual dissatisfaction existing, but if it does, then it is largely in the hands of the members of the South African Police to remove it by taking a greater pride in their work and in themselves; and a great deal has already been done in this direction. Every endeavour is made to inculcate in members of the South African Police the fact that they are no unimportant part of the system of Government and that their service is an honourable one, and it is hoped that any superiority, if it exists, assumed on the part of the South African Mounted Riflemen will soon be a thing of the past.”

said that the Minister took so much trouble in giving explanations that it was really a pleasure to bring matters before him. Many of the districts were inefficiently policed, and the other day, in the Gardens district of Cape Town, it was thirty minutes before he could find a constable to arrest a man for using foul language. The Peninsula was very poorly policed. The consequence was that the police were very much overworked. People might report cases to the police station, but the answer they received was that the force was so poorly manned that the police could not take steps to find things out. The hon. member quoted from a circular issued by the Deputy Commissioner of Police in Cape Town to members of the force, which contained the following sentence: “Members of the force who have friends oversea who are willing to join the force should write to them, but it should be understood that such individuals must pay their own passage to South Africa and come out at their own risk.” The complaint was that the men were overworked and their pay was bad.

urged the need of provision being made so that the men would have one day off, say, about each fortnight. His own opinion, he said, was that every man should have one day’s rest in seven, but he recognised the enormous expense which would be involved by such an alteration, so far as the police force was concerned. He also advocated an increase of the maximum rate of pay, and expressed the opinion that the rate of 7s. 6d. per day, given after five years’ service, was entirely inadequate.

also pleaded for a higher maximum rate of pay for the police. He expressed regret that the Government had not seen fit to award some additional remuneration to the police for the special services they rendered on the Witwatersrand in quelling the disturbances in July last.

said he had been informed that when a policeman went on his holidays his house allowance was deducted. He thought that that was unreasonable, and he hoped the Minister would go into the matter. He also stated that in the Cape policemen did not receive the same number of holidays as policemen on the Rand. The force was a Union force, and he contended that there should be uniformity in this respect. Continuing, he said that the pay of the police was not sufficient, especially for recruits, and he pointed out that the railway policemen, who had a much easier job, started at 2s. a day more than the ordinary police. In Great Britain, and formerly in the Cape, the local authorities used to contribute towards the cost of the upkeep of the police, and then they did not have these demands for so many police. Dealing with the payment of witnesses, he asked whether that tended to decrease crime, and said there were witnesses to whom the small amount paid was a great temptation. He knew another country where witnesses were only paid if they were in employment. He hoped that the Minister would give these matters his attention.

said that he hoped that the Minister of Justice would take notice of what had been said by the hon. members for Roodepoort and Yon Brandis. If the Government continued to pursue its present policy it would realise in the end that cheapness was false economy. He read a circular issued from the Head Office at Pretoria, asking all the men of the Force to bring to the notice of suitable persons the excellent prospects of the force. The hon. member then went on to quote the rates of pay, and pointed out the multifarious duties which policemen were called upon to perform. He said they were even called out when troops were under arms to break the heads of unoffending citizens and, as the hon. member for Von Brandis had put it, they did not get 1s. in compensation. Quoting the New Zealand rates of pay he said that policemen there on enrolment and under three years got 8s. a day, which rose to a maximum of 10s. 6d. He said that the fact that so few robberies were committed by policemen spoke volumes for the mental balance of those policemen who resisted temptation. The hon. member quoted another circular from Major Gray referring to the necessity of bettering the accommodation, especially in the country districts, and saying that this appeared to be the reason for the low social status of the police in the country districts, and that that was, perhaps, the reason why the force could not get good recruits of respectability from these districts.

Then they had another pin-prick, and that was bad accommodation. He had a compendium of grievances which had been supplied to him. The older men of the police it was stated had been swindled and bluffed by the new South African Police Act. They also complained of the comparatively low rates of pay compared with New Zealand and other places The Police Act of 1912 was inconsistent, and a breach of contract with the police of the various urban areas in the Cape. Many men of the dismounted rank were granted 3d. per diem for the upkeep and maintenance of their uniform, and that extended to the furnishing of their quarters in respect of bed and linen. Detective probationers and plain clothes constables must provide themselves with the uniform of the branch to which they belonged, and must keep it in good and serviceable condition. Lodging allowance for unmarried Europeans was from 1s. down to 6d. per diem. It had been rightly pointed out that nowhere in the Cape could a man get anything like decent lodgings for 6d. a clay. If the Minister would try to live on 6d. per day in Cape Town it would do him a world of good. (Laughter.) With regard to sick leave, that was another matter on which the men had grievances. The police were especially sore on this point—that they, the old policemen, men who had joined the force as police, objected most strongly to what they called the “glamour and glory ” of militarism which was often likely to be given precedence, and the welfare of the law-abiding public neglected. These policemen objected to being made soldiers, and they objected to being called out under Martial Law. That was the whole thing. The final complaint was that Mr. Naude had advocated the police force as an avenue of employment for the poor wnite class. The whole position revolved round two or three big questions. If the Minister would give those matters his earnest attention it would tend to the bad of the police force. Another matter he wished to refer to was the way in which the police since July and January had been dealing with a certain section of the ‘citizens of the Union. He wished to draw the attention of the Minister to one case, and that was in connection with a detective named Murphy, who had been placed on duty at Benoni for a considerable time. This man had gone to a private residence where he saw, singularly enough, a red flag flying. He knocked at the door—the occupant of the house was a pumpman working on the Kleinfontein Mine, and he had worked there during the strike—and he (Murphy) was told that the man, whose name was Wrighton, was in bed. The detective said the man must come out, and he came out. Murphy said: “Who put up that red flag? ” and the man said: “I did,” and he was told to take it down, and he had to take it down. The detective said: “You will get the sack for this,” and singularly enough that unfortunate man did get the sack, and had not got work since. He hoped the Minister would inquire thoroughly into that and into the action of a great many of the plain-clothes force subsequent to July and even to January.

said it had been brought to his notice very frequently that in certain portions of the country the police force was totally inadequate. He had brought to the notice of the Minister the disorderly things that were happening near the Dock Gates, Cape Town, and it came out that they were due to there not being sufficient police to properly patrol that part of the city. He hoped the Minister would see that the proper patrolling of the Docks was carried out. With reference to the men who were occupied in the centre of the city, the argument was that the cost of living to-day was considerably greater than that of the policemen in the country districts, where rent and living were low. He would like the Minister to look into the question of whether men who lived in the dearer parts of the city should not have a larger local allowance. With reference, to the number of Sundays policemen had to work, he supposed that that was accounted for by the inadequacy of the force. Policemen got only one Sunday off in four or five weeks.

said policemen in his constituency were treated very well. He wished, however, to draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that in the Gordonia district there are vast stretches of land. Along the Maloko River a number of the best farmers in the country lived. Two Bushmen in the employ of the police were creating considerable annoyance. Of course, if the cattle of the farmers strayed from the farms they were caught and placed in pound. There was a large game reserve in that part of the country, and cattle straying in there were caught and placed in the pound, and the owner had to pay 1s. a head before he could get his animals back again. That was too much. The matter should be carefully gone into and the reserve fenced in He urged the Minister to allow farmers to buy ground in the game reserve, or otherwise to reduce the fine of one shilling which had to be paid.

asked that an inquiry should be made into the alleged grievances of the police in Natal. Some of the police, although they no longer had any horses, were still being charged for forage.

They are not my men.

The S.A.M.R. fall under the Defence Department.

said the detective service in the Transkei had been done away with and this had been a great loss, and he hoped the Government would restore it. The S.A.M.R., or ordinary police, could not alone cope with the illicit trade in the Transkei.

stated that more police were required in the suburbs of Gape Town, which could not be patrolled sufficiently owing to the inadequate strength of the Force. There were so few constables that their hours were very long and they could not obtain their proper leave. The inconvenient time at which kit inspections were held pressed very hardly on married men.

said he wished to refer to the pernicious system of trapping on the Rand. It was intolerable that natives should be employed to trap white people and very often white girls. If the Minister wished to empty the prisons he should review the Transvaal Illicit Liquor Law. In December, 1912, there were 43 females in the Pretoria Central Prison for breaches of this law. Many people did not look upon illicit liquor selling as a crime, and when distress was prevalent on the Rand they were driven to this means of getting some money. To his mind, at the present time, this law was manufacturing criminals.

said that the police protection provided for his district was quite insufficient, and he urged the Minister to give the matter his serious consideration. He had raised this question before, and hoped the Minister would now tell him what he proposed to do. There were no compounds in the diamond mines in the west of the Free State. The Kafirs went about the district on Saturdays and Sundays and did a lot of mischief.

said that the police provision in the Harrismith district was very poor. Two men at one post where a periodical Court was held from time to time was far from satisfactory, and he appealed to the Minister to see what could be done.

said he wished to appeal for additional police protection for the village of Zastron. It was a growing village which for years had not received any consideration. If possible, he trusted the Minister would come and see matters for himself. He regretted that they could not appoint coloured policemen, as there were very suitable men who were willing to take up the work.

said he did not think hon. members would expect him to be able to reply to all the small details which had been raised. He did not think it was possible for any Minister to have knowledge of all the small details. Many of the questions raised here would have been raised more satisfactorily to the men concerned if hon. members had written him a note or seen him personally.

That, would not give the publicity desired.

It would give much more satisfaction. Proceeding, he said he had work enough with the S.A. Police without being saddled with the shortcomings of the S. A. Mounted Rifles. One area of the Union was policed by the S.A. Police, under the Department of Justice, and the other portion fell under the S.A. Mounted Rifles. The whole of Natal was under the S.A.M.R., as was also the Transkei. The Defence Department was entirely responsible for the policing of that part. He did not think the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, was surprised now to hear where the additional expenditure came in after such a chorus as they had had that day.

replying to the hon. member for Prieska in Dutch, pointed out that, in certain parts of the country, the police fell under the Defence Force. This applied to the police in the Prieska constituency. The same applied to the police in Rouxville. In reply to the question by the hon. member for Boshof, he could say that the Free State was getting a number of new policemen, but the distribution rested with the Commissioner in the Free State. This answer also applied to the question of the hon. member for Harrismith. As to the number of policemen for each district, he wished to point out that in Humansdorp there was one policeman for every 450 whites, and one policeman for each 900 people, including coloured. He would like to comply with every request, But could not see that he could, make any promises.

continuing in English, said on the question of trapping, the liquor law had given him a good deal of thought, and he would like to have heard what the suggestions of the hon. member might be, though, of course, that was not the proper time. The law was there, and it was the duty of the police to enforce the law. They regretted the painful circumstances that a large number of white men and women were continually being imprisoned for illicit liquor selling. He (the Minister) had issued a circular on the subject, and had laid it down that trapping should only be resorted to in cases where otherwise it would be impossible to bring habitual offenders to book. In every way he had tried to reduce trapping to a minimum. All the members from the Transvaal felt that they must have a certain amount of restriction—that they could not have unrestricted sales of liquor to natives in the Transvaal. The law was there, and he felt it his duty to carry it out.

The vote was agreed to.

alluded to the fact that on this vote the expenditure had been increased by £40,000, and wanted to know how the members of the Prison Board were paid. He alluded to the increased amount for travelling expenses, and wished to know whether the two disciplinary officers for the industrial schools had nothing else to do but handle the birch. (Laughter.) He thought the schoolmasters would be able to enforce discipline.

questioned the Minister with regard to subordinate officers achieving superior rank.

said it was no good putting boys and girls into industrial schools unless provision was made for their education. He considered that this matter had been seriously neglected in the past. In many cases, though it was hard to say so, one thought it would have been better to have left these boys and girls on the streets. Greater care should be taken, he thought in the appointment of members of local boards who looked after these schools. They had two in the Transvaal, and he did not want to say anything against the members of these Boards, but they had not given that personal attention to the work which they ought to have done. Another thing was that these schools were placed under the Prisons Department. These children were not prisoners and ought not to be regarded as such.

Another thing was that under the law at present children who were sent to those schools on arriving at the age of 18 were discharged. In many cases, and especially in the case of girls, to send them back to the surroundings from which they came was wrong. They wanted to see them sent somewhere where there would be little chance of them becoming criminals. There was a hostel in Johannesburg where boys who had been convicted lived, and were found work in the ordinary way on the mines or in the stores. He knew the amount of good work that hostel was doing. Last year he had dealt with that matter in committee on that vote. He suggested the Government should provide a proper building for the hostel. All that was wanted was a sum of money for a building. The late Minister of Justice said he would visit the place himself and go into the matter personally and that it had his sympathy. Unfortunately he was overtaken by illness and was not able to do so.

said he saw that £660 was set down on the Estimates for probation officers, of whom there were four in the Union. He knew the probation officer of the Cape did excellent work. Of late he had sent out eighty girls and boys who were now being well looked after. These people would otherwise have been sent to industrial schools. Therefore the money which would have been spent on these children was saved. Yet the probation officer of the Cape only received £100 per year, which, he urged, was not sufficient seeing the good work that gentleman did.

said that during the Budget debate he had made some reference to the large increase in that vote. The whole system of the gaols in that country had been altered very largely lately. There had been a system of centralisation which had resulted in a great deal of inconvenience in many ways. In a place like Molteno, for instance, when a man was being tried he had to be brought backwards and forwards from Queen’s Town. All that concentration had been done with the object of saving expenditure, but they found that exactly the opposite state of affairs existed. Under the old system in those days there were certain services rendered for which payment was received. The Auditor-General’s report for 1913 showed that £62,853 was earned during that period. That was not the case now, and an examination of the figures showed that the net result of the concentration was that the revenue lost was £120,000.

advocated the establishment of a training ship. A training ship gave opportunities for continuity in the lives of boys. That was the difficulty which beset those engaged in reformatory work as carried out in this country. If they started a reformatory training ship he thought they would find a means of giving the lads some direction in their lives. He instanced the training ship Cornwall in the Thames. On that ship lads who were sentenced by magistrates mixed on board the ship with lads who had not been sentenced, and the lads did not know each other in that respect. That was what had led to the great success of the system. The results obtained as far as the boys were concerned who had been trained on board that ship were very remarkable indeed. He suggested that next session a Select Committee should be appointed to go into the matter.

agreed that reformatories should be transferred from the Prisons Department to the Education Department. He pointed out that at one time a certain class of criminals who were unable to do hard labour had been employed as clerks and assistants in clerical work in the prisons. He was informed now that that work was no better done than it had been done under the old system. He hoped that a Select Committee would be appointed to go into the matter of a training ship, because he was informed that training ships had not been a success. There were very few European boys in their reformatories in proportion to the population. If the people were allowed to pay their fines by instalments many of them would not have to go to prison.

appealed to the Minister to make a considerable reduction in the vote for uniforms and equipment of the staffs of reformatories and prisons. Although the staff was going to be increased only by 15, there was an increased vote for clothing of £3,000, and for equipment of £500. The estimate last year was extremely liberal, but this year it was extremely extravagant. (Hear, hear.)

called attention to the treatment of awaiting trial prisoners who were given exactly the same food as convicted prisoners. They were put into cells which were almost identical with those occupied by persons who had been convicted of crime. Awaiting trial prisoners also had to submit to the indignity of having their finger prints taken. He (Mr. Boydell) had had a conversation with some high prison officials who informed him that they would be pleased if the regulations could be altered so that they could treat awaiting trial prisoners differently. For instance, hardened criminals name in contact with first offenders over whom they exercised an evil influence. The matter was more urgent now, seeing that with new legislation our prisons would be filled.

With a nicer lot of fellows. (Laughter.)

Why not treat them in a nicer way? Mr. Boydell again referred to the hours of the Natal warders, who before Union worked in three shifts of eight hours each, but now they were 12 hours on duty and 12 hours off.

said that since he was last in gaol matters seemed to have altered a good deal. (Laughter.) Taking it all round, he thought prisoners were much too well treated, whether they were awaiting trial or convicted. He remembered a visit he paid to the Central Gaol at Pretoria, and he thought it was one of the most comfortable places one could strike. (Laughter.) In three-quarters of the farmhouses in South Africa one would not get such good food as the prisoners received. In fact the prisoners were better treated than those who, by hook or by crook, managed to keep out of gaol. The Natal Agricultural Union had passed a resolution stating that the luxurious living and generous treatment, of prisoners had had a demoralising effect on the natives. He hoped the Minister would make a prisoner’s stay in gaol a deterrent.

The hon. member also drew the Minister's attention to the state of things at what he called “that Black Hole of Calcutta,” the lock-up at Pinetown He regretted to see that the Minister had invented two new English words, “house father” and “house mother.” There was no necessity to introduce two such absurdities into the English language.

said that they had an item of “Plant and material for industries and for work executed by prison labour.” He regretted that there was nothing to show what was the revenue expected from this source.

said, he noticed there was an increase of about £14,000 under the heading of “Rations and Fuel.”

said that the hon. member for Springs would find an explanatory note on page 8 of the Estimates, stating that each department would have to pay for any prison labour.

said that that did not exactly meet his point. He wanted to know what amount they would have to pay.

said he thought the hon. member would probably find that from the Estimates of Revenue.

Proceeding, he said that, in regard to the question of the increase of expenditure in this department with the increase in the number of prisons, the expenditure would, of course, increase. The average daily number of prisoners from November, 1911, to March, 1912, was 13,035; from April, 1913, to September, 1913, 14,000; from October, 1913, to November, 1913, 14,900; and from November, 1913, to March, 1914, 15,316. This vote was cut down last year by £18,000. Their actual expenditure last year was something just over £500,000, and on the actual expenditure of the last financial year there was an increase in this vote, not of £39,000, as shown in the Estimates, but only of something like £19,000. The hon. member for Albany had raised the question of the expenses going up, but if he looked at the votes for reformatories and industrial schools, he would find about £37,000 of new items. Proceeding, the Minister expressed his appreciation of the work done by the Prisoners’ Aid Society, and said that there was nobody who appreciated that work more than he or the head of his department (Mr. Roos). The hon. member for Fordsburg, who took a very great interest in these industrial schools, would have seen that, with the buildings that he had got at his disposal, he had a very sad business in carrying on this work. The Minister went on to point out the disparity between the salaries paid to masters and assistant masters in industrial schools and those paid to masters and assistant masters in ordinary schools, and said that the result was that they could not get enough masters. With regard to the disciplinary officers, these officers were not for the purpose of inflicting punishment, but to look after the boys when they were out for drill and play. The extra superintendent who had been referred to had been put on at the Barberton Prison, where prisoners under indeterminate sentences were kept. The whole increase of the staff of the department was only eleven. With regard to the staff at the head office, he could assure the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, that the petition work alone was sufficient to keep two men busy. In regard to a waiting-trial prisoners, he pointed out that these prisoners were allowed a good number of privileges. The quarters of prisoners awaiting trial were separate.

Yes, but they are the same kind of cells.

said it was a very difficult matter. In reply to the hon. member for Springs, he said that prison industries were confined to making articles for prisons and other Government departments. A few brushes and other things were sold, but not in large quantities. The hon. member for George had referred to the increase of the uniform allowance. The reason for that was that the stock had become very depleted. Last year’s amount was very much under-estimated, and owing to the change in uniform consequent upon Union the new issue stock had been kept very low, and it had been found necessary to replenish the stock to meet requirements. They had to strike an average over four or five years, for it did not pay to buy stuff for one year only. That was the reason why the vote was so high. The hon. member for Umlazi had raised a question of the lock-up at Pinetown. The lock-up was not a prison. The police were responsible for prisoners until conviction where there were no large gaols. Incidentally the police at, Pinetown belonged to the Defence Department and not to the Department of Justice. The hon. member would have another opportunity of raising the point on the Defence vote.

replying to the hon. member for Edenburg (Mr. E. N. Grobler), said that the probation officer at the Cape, unlike the officials in other parts, was not an all-time officer. He was in addition secretary to the Prisoners’ Aid Association. In Natal he was an official, but not in Johannesburg.

; expressed himself as dissatisfied with the reply of the Minister regarding awaiting trial prisoners, who, although they were not put amongst convicted men awaiting the commencement of their sentences, were kept apart in certain quarters, but during exercise they were free to converse with hardened criminals. It was then that the criminal awaiting trial exercised a very evil influence over the first offender, say, or over the man who was innocent that had to await his trial. So far as his own case was concerned, he had no cause to grumble, because he was in hospital quarters. But the Minister looked upon chat as a great concession that a man awaiting trial should be allowed to wear his own clothes. Why should he not, until he had been proved guilty? He was allowed to get food in— many of them could not do that, and had to live on prison rations. The other point was they were allowed to take a newspaper in Why not, indeed? Those men were not guilty until they were found guilty. They should have decent food, certainly better food than the prison food— black coffee and very doubtful bread. There was room for a great deal of reform in that direction. He hoped the Minister would reconsider his attitude, and give that matter favourable consideration. Why should a man who had not been found guilty have his finger prints taken and see his visitors from behind iron bars, with the warder hearing everything he had to say? Those were matters which should engage the attention of a Committee of Inquiry of some sort.

said he had forgotten to mention that although the estimate for last year was only £66,000, the actual expenditure was £81,900, and they had estimated on that basis. With regard to awaiting-trial prisoners, he did not want to treat that subject lightly. At the same time they would have to strike a happy mean in regard to certain privileges; if they had to make special arrangements at every prison in the Union, it would cast an intolerable burden on the country. He did not know it was a regulation that awaiting-trial prisoners had to see visitors through the bars, and he would look into that.

said that the Government still sold out a good deal of convict labour to De Beers and other people, and he would ask some information regarding receipts, not at that time, but as early as was convenient.

said that the hon. member for Greyville had raised the question of an eight hours day, but there was great difficulty in a complicated service like the prisons to bring down the hours to eight hours a day. In no prisons in Europe was the strict rule in force so far as warders were concerned.

said that the same work was done by the same staff, and it was so organised that they did not do more than eight hours in a shift. He had had a chat with the Assistant Director of Prisons, and he hoped that some good would come of it.

I was under the impression that the hours were the same as in the Transvaal, but if they were not so he would look into the matter.

The vote was agreed to.

moved that the Minister’s salary be reduced by £1,000. He did so in order to give him an opportunity of expressing views which he was unable to express on a former occasion owing to the action of the Minister. The position among the men at present was very serious, and he was not bringing these matters forward for the purpose of taking up the time of the House, but for the reason that if these matters were not seriously tackled by the Government there would be serious consequences. He believed the Minister met the men the previous night at a social gathering, and if that were a sign of repentance then he was very glad to hear of it. The position was, in a nutshell, that the Minister had dealt in a most unsympathetic way with the reasonable statement put before him, and in fact went so far as to charge the men that they were guilty of gross misrepresentation. The Minister had said that there was gross misrepresentation in the statement that the men were told they might consider themselves fortunate that they were not dismissed.

I said I knew nothing at all about the matter.

If the Minister is going to withdraw his statement then Is will drop the point. Continuing, he said that the Minister had accused them of a gross misrepresentation, but if the Minister would look up the papers he would find that instead of gross misrepresentation the statements were statements of fact, and he referred the Minister to Reference 12,294 of 1911. So the Minister was wrong in telling the House that there had been gross misrepresentation. The men complained that the Government had only dealt with three out of 109 points, and then sheltered itself behind the Public Service Commission. The Minister might explain how he came to make out that the financial concessions amounted to £16,000, whereas the Postmaster-General said the amount was only £7,000. The hon. member then went on to deal with the question of the 12 hour day, and said that this was a case where a grievance was redressed and yet had not been redressed, and pointed out that while the Minister was talking about the 12 hour day in the House men in various parts of the Union were compelled to work over a period of 15 hours. The Minister had said that improvements had taken place. The men did not deny this. They had agreed that there had been an improvement in regard to appointments from the executive to the engineering branch, but the trouble was that there was no recognised channel of promotion.

Let them take the question of salaries. The Minister made out that in the Post Office salaries were just as good or better than those paid by commercial houses. A man receiving £10 per month at 18 had to be 31 years of age before he got £20, and 41 years of age before he received £25 per month. Although there were certain highly paid appointments in the postal service, if they took the men as a whole it was not fair to say that they were paid as well as men in other branches of work. On the question of promotion, the Minister had indicated that there had been a fairly large number of promotions. That was not a fair statement, in this way, that many of those men had been promoted by the formation of special new departments. The Government had reorganised the surveying, engineering and commercial staffs, and no doubt there had been certain appointments in connection with them, but they were not ordinary promotions. Those special promotions were made for a special purpose. The question of hours was a matter that the Minister ought to go into. The irregular hours had as much effect in the small country offices as in the larger centres. The question of overtime ought also to be considered by the Minister. In the old Cape service Schedule A men after reaching a salary of £160 were given certain privileges, but now Schedule A had ceased to exist, and those men had been reduced as regarded leave privileges to the level of men under mother schedule. Apart from the legal aspect of whether it was an accruing right or not, those men before Union had had definite leave privileges and they were now made to suffer. In regard to promotion, there seemed to be a very serious congestion. On the question of appeal, the Minister had said in a speech that he had hoard the complaint made that men did not get a fair hearing. The position was this—a man had a dispute with a person above him on a certain point, and the decision was against him. On the official papers as they came back it was shown that the man who was the judge in the Court below prepared the judgment for the Postmaster-General, and all the Post-master-General did was to sign it. The initials of the official who had given the first decision appeared on the papers, and he did not think that was right. It might be perfectly true that the Postmaster-General went into the matter, but the men resented seeing on the document the initials of the very man who had initialled the original decision. The men had an idea that that man was apparently able to influence the decision on the matter which he himself had originally decided. He thought the Minister should do away with that system. He thought the Minister should make provision for a permanent Appeal Board. Unless an Appeal Board was established it seemed they would have those questions raised time after time in that House. With regard to the Minister’s methods generally, he hoped there would be a more sympathetic dealing with the complaints brought forward by the men and that the Minister and the Postmaster-General would endeavour to see that each case was dealt with on its merits.

asked whether the Minister had provided for the construction of a telephone line from Middelburg to Elandslaagte and Lang-water, and from there to Pokwane. This was a closely populated area. There were five police posts along that line, and he sincerely trusted the Minister would comply with his request. At Lagersdrift there was a large settlement which would profit from this line. The cost would be about £5,000, but that amount would soon be paid back. The revenue from Sekukuniland alone amounted to £60,000.

asked what was the policy of the Government with regard to establishing telephone communication between Upington and Rietfontein. The Minister had promised last year to see what he could do in the matter, but not a penny was provided on the Estimates for it. Telephone communication was an absolute necessity in that district.

referred to the grievances of 25 sorters in the Transvaal who, at the date of Union, were on a scale up to £300 a year, but on the reorganisation of the staff they were reduced to a scale terminating at £260 a year, they having been re-graded as third-class assistants. A grave injustice had been done these men, and they were not better off than they were before, although they received a local allowance of £52 10s. a year, but that was not counted for pension purposes. When they were re-graded the assurance was given them that the advancement of efficient men would not be arrested, but there had been no promotion since the date of their re-grading. Personally, he knew the men were thoroughly efficient. The hon. member urged that promotions from the executive branch of the Post Office to the engineering branch should be made by examination so that the best men could be advanced. In the opinion of the men favouritism played a very prominent part in these promotions.

said he desired to draw the Minister’s attention to the need for a telephone line between Harrismith and Vrede, as well as to the need for a bi-weekly postal service between these places.

said the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle, was doing a very great public service in bringing the grievances of the postal officials before the House. He (Mr. Sampson) could not help thinking that the matter had been treated rather shabbily by the Minister. When the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Quinn) made a detailed speech in regard to the grievances of the Post and Telegraph Department the Minister made a long but absolutely inadequate reply. Undoubtedly there were many grievances among the postal and telegraph officials. Grievances were bound to arise where large numbers of men were employed, but sitting on the safety valve was the very worst possible thing the Minister could do. He (Mr. Sampson) saw in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs the same symptoms that were visible in the railway service a few years ago when grievances were neither rectified nor properly considered, with the result the trouble the country was put to only a few months ago.

He thought it was absolutely impossible to ask the Minister to apply his individual attention to every one of these cases. What was there to prevent the appointment of a Commission to go into these grievances in the postal service, as had been done in connection with the railways? There should also be a proper Appeal Board to go into future cases.

urged the need of a better postal service at Hankey.

said that he wished to ask the Minister if provision had been made on the Estimates for the establishment of a telephone exchange at Robertson? He expressed his appreciation of the improved communication which had been made between Worcester and Robertson and Cape Town.

said he thought some arrangement should be made whereby a charge should be made for services rendered by the Post and Telegraph Department to the other departments of the Government. He did not think the present system was at all satisfactory. Provision should be made for these services on the votes, as was formerly done in the Cape under the old regime. He would also like to know why it was that it had been necessary to issue a special warrant for £22,000, expenses incurred for the construction of telephones in the Cape prior to the end of last financial year. In this matter a mistake had been made which did not reflect credit on the department. He desired to move that the item of “Subsidy to Reuter’s Press Agency, £500,” be deleted. He looked upon this? as an absolute waste of public money. The only thing the country got was that Ministers had telegrams sent to their offices prior to being communicated to the newspapers. That was the only value the country got for this £500.

advocated the extension of telephonic communication between Luckhoff and Belmont or Luckhoff and Fauresmith, and also between Helpmakaar and Fauresmith. There was only one other matter he wished to raise: that of the rental of instruments. There was a distinct understanding when they were installed that the rental was to be £6 per annum, but it had been raised to £7 10s.

called attention to the fact that there was an increase in respect of local allowances on the Estimates, and he wanted to know if the Transkei was going to share in the increases; if not, he hoped it would be extended to that district, for there was no part of the country where it was more needed. He mentioned also that in many places in the Transkei there was only one postal official, who was often called upon to do a great deal of extra work without receiving extra remuneration. That should be taken into account. He drew attention to the fact that coloured postmen were being dismissed and their places filled by Europeans, on flimsy excuses, and he thought a stop should be put to this process. The hon. member also wanted to know if there had been any further advance towards diminishing the postage on literature for the blind, and urged the recognition by the Government of the postal service associations.

unged the necessity of extending telephonic communication from the main line to the districts round about Beaufort West and Prince Albert.

referred to some correspondence which he had had with the Postal Department, and said that the present accommodation for postal work at Woodstock, was insufficient, insanitary, and necessitated overcrowding, while the staff was overworked. He hoped there would shortly be an improvement.

raised the question of the necessity of an Appeal Board for the post office clerks, etc., in Natal. No doubt, as the hon. Minister had said, a good many of their grievances had been dealt with, but there were many more which were still standing. The Minister said some time ago that a Commission would be appointed to go into those grievances, and it was only fair that some statement should be made that day which would satisfy them that their grievances would be gone into in the near future.

associated himself with the position taken up by certain members, and the avenue through which those grievances should be threshed out was, in his opinion, by the Minister recognising the men’s associations. That method had always made for good feeling and a comparatively contented service. Proceeding, the hon. member said that a couple of years ago he had introduced the question of the desirability of introducing a sixpenny telegram. He thought the Minister should go thoroughly into that.

said they would lose a lot of money.

said the same argument had been used before the introduction of penny postage, yet it was an ascertained fact that that had been a huge financial success. If they cheapened things sufficiently the inevitable result was a financial success. He asked the Minister to tell them of the effect of cheapening week-end cables to England? Temporarily it might have resulted in a loss, though not quite such a loss as before, and if they cheapened them far enough more people would take advantage of the facilities offered for sending cheaper messages, and the expenditure on the increased staff would foe more than counterbalanced. Referring to Modder B, the hon. member also asked the Minister to consider the advisability of extending the privilege of sending night telegrams. There were many big towns in the Union where that facility was not obtainable, and they should not always make the financial consideration the first importance, but should study the convenience of the public.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

said he wished to impress upon the Minister the necessity for telephonic communication in the rural districts. He did not say that the Government ought to go in for all sorts of schemes, but he thought they should do what they could to meet the rural population by extending the lines and enabling the people in the country to conduct their business in a better way. The Jansenville Chamber of Commerce had applied several times for an exchange, but that had not been granted. At present it was impossible to make full use of the lines because there was no exchange at Jansenville.

said he must congratulate the Postal Department on the great advances that had been made in connection with telephones during the past year. He understood that the number of applicants was so large that all the applications for telephone communication could not foe granted owing to want of money. The hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger), had suggested that the present mail system did not give satisfaction. He (Mr. Brown) thought that the present mail arrangements had given great satisfaction in the Province. Like many others, he very much regretted that the Minister had not seen his way to recognise the Postal and Telegraph Association. In Great Britain the Postmaster-General had recognised the Postal Employees’ Association, and he thought good reason should be shown why that should not be done here. He was instructed that although they had been four years in Union no regulations had been issued bringing the different systems in South Africa together. On the matter of leave, he understood there was a difference of as much as 24 days’ leave between the different Provinces. Another thing he was instructed was that the staff, being shifted from place to place, intermingled in the different offices, and the man who came from the Cape might be working alongside a man from the Transvaal, yet they were not subject to the same leave regulations. There must be something wrong when such a state of affairs existed. He understood that men who were engaged after Union only obtained one-half of the leave of the men who were engaged before Union. He was sure that was a subject that must require some consideration. The Cape men also complained that they were not allowed to accumulate more than six weeks’ leave at a time, while in other parts of the country men were entitled to accumulate six months’ leave. That meant that the men in the Cape could not take advantage of a sea trip, while a man in another Province could. Leave regulations were also different in the different districts of the Cape. Another complaint was that when men got leave they were sometimes advised only a couple of days before their leave commenced that they could not have it at that time. He asked whether there was anything in the rumours that the mail steamers were going to make shorter trips to Cape Town, that they were going to turn here and that Durban, East London and Port Elizabeth were not to have the advantage of visits from the mail steamers in future. Was that matter to be discussed at the next conference? Another matter he wished to bring forward was that men who had not been in receipt of £160 per annum before Union had had their leave altered.

said that he had taken the opportunity two or three weeks ago to say what he had to say with regard to the men in the Post Office. Then no good reason had been shown for the continued refusal of the Post Office to recognise the Postal and Telegraph Association. That was a standing grievance of many years. The Minister knew that a Commission had been appointed by the Imperial Post Office Department which had gone into the matter.

said he wished to associate himself with the remarks which had fallen from his colleague on his right. Until they had a Conciliation Board there would always be trouble. He hoped the Minister would try to do something definite before next session.

asked what the Minister intended to do to remedy the grievances of the Natal Postal Service? There was no necessity to repeat those grievances, for the Minister must know them by heart. The suggested appointment of a standing Conciliation Board was worth the Minister’s serious consideration.

said this was a favourable opportunity for the Minister to complete the oration he commenced the other day, but which was unfortunately left unfinished owing to the lateness of the hour. (Laughter.) The situation in regard to the Post Office was causing some anxiety. Whether it was the fault of the Minister or not he (Sir Edgar) was not prepared to say. But there seemed to be a loss of that confidence in the head of the department which used to exist, and which led people to regard the Post Office Service with the utmost pride. People felt they had a magnificent service and a competent and loyal staff, which faithfully served the country. He (Sir Edgar) had personally been connected with the service for some years, and from his experience he found that the men were not unreasonable. Grievances might have been exaggerated and individual cases might have been pressed too strongly, but as a rule the department consisted of competent men who recognised their duties to the public. The hon. member went on to refer to the arbitration proceedings in London in connection with the Ocean Mail Contract, and said he would be glad if the Minister would take the opportunity of telling the committee whether there was any prospect of an immediate result from these proceedings. In this connection he was glad to notice that the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, had somewhat altered his views and was coming round more to the views held by the rest of the commercial community in South Africa.

Oh, no.

suggested that the Minister should consider the feasibility of erecting two field wireless stations in his constituency.

said that the hon. member for Port Elizabeth could have seen from the newspapers that the arbitration proceedings in London had been postponed pending the return of Lord Mersey from Canada. As to his own attitude in the matter, his position was as it had always been He supported the Government in this matter and he had not changed in the slightest degree.

Is it not rather that the Government, supported the hon. member for Cape Town, Central? (Laughter.)

said that in the speech: which he made a few weeks ago he was able to remove a few false impressions in regard to Post Office grievances. The Government were most anxious and he was most anxious to go into all grievances and remove those which were well founded. He claimed that they had done so. The grievances were considered by the Prime Minister and the other members of the Government, and the reply which was made to the postal officials was the reply of the Government. He should: like to correct a false impression that, seemed to exist and that was that he gave merely a few hours to the delegates from the various Provinces, whereas a separate day was given to each delegation. He did not think it was right that members in this committee should get up and allege that the Government was indifferent to these grievances. It had been suggested that a Commission should be appointed to go into these grievances. They knew all the grievances, they knew that the grievances were mainly in connection with demands for more salary. (Hear, hear.) That was a financial matter which the Treasury, together with the Department, was much more competent to consider than any outside body. Other grievances had to do with the details of the administration of the Post Office, and he submitted with all confidence that an outside Commission would not be able to give many valuable suggestions with regard to improvements in that respect without spending a great deal of time. They had been told that there was a standing Board of Conciliation in connection with the Post Office in England, and that we ought to have one here. They had, however, to remember the fact that there were about 300,000 postal officials in England, whereas here the number was about 6,000. The Government had carefully considered every one of the grievances brought before them and had given relief in a large number of cases. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth, Central, had spoken about the magnificent services which the Postal Department rendered to this country. He (the Minister) quite agreed with the hon. member that very valuable services were rendered, often under very trying circumstances, by the postal service. The hon. member for Cape Town, Castle, had called attention to a statement which he (the Minister) had made with regard to a paragraph which appeared in a pamphlet circulated by the Secretary of the Postal and Telegraph Association to the effect that men were told that they should consider themselves fortunate that they had not been dismissed. He (Sir T. Watt) said at the time that nothing was known of that, or that there was misrepresentation. Nothing was known of it. The quotation made by the hon. member this afternoon had not supported the language used in this pamphlet. In the Post Office circular the increase of the salary voted consequent on the concessions made to the Department was stated as £7,000, whereas, he stated two weeks ago that it was £16,000. The £7,000 was the increase last year, and the £16,000 was the increase this year. The hon. member had also referred to the very long hours which the postal officials had to work, but if they worked more than 42 hours a week they were paid overtime. He disliked over-time, but it was sometimes necessary, and unlike other public services, they were remunerated.

There should be some check.

said that the hon. member had moved to delete the small item of £500 for Reuter’s services. That was a payment which had been made for a long time by the old Cape Province, and had been continued by the Union. Even economical Natal used to make a small contribution to the same Agency.

What is the good of it?

said they had the advantage of getting the latest news upon any public matters from the Agency, and should it be necessary to make any communication to the outside world, Reuter’s offered a very convenient medium.

Why not go back to the old arrangement?

said he thought the present system of the mail steamer leaving on a Saturday was much more convenient. He would remind the hon. member, who was a distinguished ornament of the Chamber of Commerce, that that matter was discussed at Kimberley by the Associated Chambers of Commerce, and a not less distinguished gentlemen said that the present arrangement was quite satisfactory.

said that the Minister had not answered his question.

said the Government had not got the money to build the proposed telephone line.

said he did not think that Saturday sailings of the mail steamers were altogether satisfactory. (Hear, hear.) He hoped when the matter was gone into that the Minister would think it worth while to consult people who were not acquainted with the passenger traffic alone, but also with the export trade. One of the greatest difficulties connected with Saturday sailings was that the fruit trade was seriously hampered, as owing to the fruit arriving in London on Tuesday only four days were left for its disposal. Saturday sailings also interfered with the supplies for the Continental market.

said he was very much disappointed with the Minister’s answer to his question.

said the Minister had omitted to state that before the men were paid overtime the first-class officers had to put in three hours’ overtime, and the second-class officers five hours’ overtime, and the third-class officers nine hours’ overtime every week. The Minister also forgot to tell the House that in 1907 a Natal Commission laid it down that the reduction of the maximum was a decided breach of agreement.

said he was sorry he could not withdraw his amendment, as the Minister’s reply was most unsatisfactory and unsympathetic.

The amendment of Mr. Alexander was negatived.

said he did not think the Minister’s defence of the payment to Reuter’s. Agency was at all adequate. He (Mr. Jagger) maintained that the payment was a pure waste of money. He had no doubt that Reuter was always very glad to get Government notices as items of news. Reuter’s was a business institution for the purpose of supplying news, and was not a philanthropic institution. Why should it be subsidised?

The amendment of Mr. Jagger was negatived.

said some of them were very anxious that the rebate system should not be introduced in another form. If the people who held the mail contract were allowed to discriminate in connection with people whose goods they proposed to carry, the rebate system would be reintroduced in another shape, and combination would be encouraged in a more objectionable form. When the Post Office Bill was before the House, he maintained that the Government should enter into a contract with no one but public carriers. He hoped the Minister would see that an attempt had been made to put pressure on merchants, and that it was very serious to allow companies to tell merchants that if they did not sign agreements to send all their goods by the companies’ steamers they might find that their shipments were unavoidably crowded out. The idea of doing away with the rebate system was to secure an open freight market, and he hoped that under no circumstances would Government depart from that policy. Government should consider not the interest of the shipping companies or a certain class of people, but the general interest of the whole body of the public. (Cheers.)

The vote was agreed to.

moved the reduction of the vote by £1 Inquiries should be made in regard to the Department’s system and methods, especially insofar as the Witwatersrand was concerned. Most of the representations showed that a departmental inquiry would be useless. What was wanted, he thought, was some independent inquiry that would hear evidence from the contractors in regard to the manner in which these contracts were dealt with. The general tenour of their complaints was in reference to the delays in payment by the Department. In the case of a Benoni contract valued at £5,640, variations were made to the tune of £4,300. The hon. member mentioned several contracts for the erection of schools, etc., in which there had been considerable delay in payment or variations from the bills of quantities. He quoted from the evidence given by a contractor, who said that he had been forced into insolvency practically by the dilatory methods of the Department.

said that it might shorten the proceedings if he said at once that these were Provincial matters. The Union Government did not build schools in the Transvaal, but were simply the agents of the Provincial Government.

That might be so, but these were instances that came out when work was done departmentally by the Union Department. These people say that the same system prevails to-day in regard to Public Works contracts. The hon. member went on to ask the Minister if anything had been done with regard to the Government paying rates on their properties which were situated in municipalities. He mentioned that in Johannesburg they had flats from which they drew a rental of £150 per month and in respect of which they paid no municipal rates.

called the Minister’s attention to certain disabilities under which foremen of works in the service of the Department laboured in comparison with the clerical staff, and urged that the case should be sympathetically considered.

moved that vote B, transport and travelling, be reduced by £3,000. He said there was an increase of £3,000 in this vote compared with last year, although the number of employees was the same as before. Unless the Minister could give a satisfactory explanation, he thought the vote should be reduced to the same amount as last year.

called attention to the increase of rates from £87,000 to £92,000.

said there was a petition which had been extensively signed regarding the proposed new Court-house at Verulam. It would be exceedingly inconvenient for the legal fraternity and those who had to make use of it, and before going on with it he hoped some steps would be taken to obtain the best site. There was another point the hon. member wished to raise. He had been approached by several members of the legal fraternity in Durban to see whether it was not possible to get better accommodation for robing and disrobing in the Courthouse. They had a box, he understood, 9 feet x 3 feet, and they had to get behind the door before they could let anybody else out.

with regard to the site for the Verulam Court-house, said that the Minister, before deciding, was going to Natal, and would select the site himself. The hon. member went on to ask for the information regarding the item of £1,300 for fire brigades.

Dealing with the points raised by the hon. member for Commissioner-street, said that the Public Works Department simply acted as agent of the Provinces in preparing plans and specifications for schools and other buildings, with the exception of the Cape, where most of the work was done by private architects. It always happened that some time elapsed after the completion of a building before a final settlement took place, and it was un for tunate that an hon. member should bring forward details and discuss them in that House without giving the Minister some opportunity of going into them beforehand. He would, however, promise that the matter should be looked into. The hon. member also wanted to know when the Government intended to pay the rates on Government properties throughout the Union? At the present time the law was in a somewhat chaotic state. There was a different law in each of the various Provinces which rendered the Government liable to pay rates. Sometime ago he looked into the matter, and he had, hoped it might be possible to introduce a Bill this session to bring about uniformity. But that had not been possible, and it would be tackled probably next session. In reference to the foreman of works being in a worse position than other members of the service, he understood that those men received 15 to 20 days’ leave on full pay every year, according to the length of their service, but if there were any other circumstances in connection with their service which could be improved within reason, he would see that it was done. With regard to the increase in the items travelling and transport, which the hon. member for Durban, Berea, had drawn attention to, they had more work than usual for the Union Government and also for the Provinces, which necessitated more travelling by the officers, therefore greater expenditure would be incurred. The hon. member could rest assured that the utmost economy was exercised in that direction. With regard to the increase in the rates, referred to by the hon. member for Gape Town, Central, that was owing to the increased valuation of properties for which the Government was liable to pay rates. More of such properties as Government were liable to take over Pave fallen into the Government’s hands and the amount of rates had to be increased accordingly. Proceeding, he said that that was the first time he had heard about the insufficient accommodation for barristers at the Durban Court, and he would cause inquiry to be made, but he could not hold out much hope of improvement because that building was erected at some considerable cost and completed only some 18 months ago, so it is rather early to talk about additions. In reply to the hon. member for Prieska he would promise to look into the matter of seating accommodation in the Court there, but he would point out to the hon. member that he was but the humble instrument who carried out the wishes of the more august Ministers in charge of other departments and he carried out their behests for buildings. The hon. member for Victoria County had asked regarding the contribution to fire brigades. They were simply continuing what existed in the various Pro-winces. Prior to Union the contributions were: Pretoria £300, Johannesburg £300, Cape £420, and Pietermaritzburg £180. Durban having such a wealthy population did not, he thought, press its claims in the pre-Union days.

We got £1,700 a year from the old Natal Government.

said ha understood those contributions were in existence prior to Union, and were being continued until that matter of the rates had been adjusted.

(Port Elizabeth, Central) pointed out that the upkeep of Groote Schuur Estate cost £3,000 a year. In addition to that he had been astonished to find that that estate paid rates to the Municipality of £3,000 a year, making £6,000 a year in all, which the taxpayers of the country paid for the benefit of the people living in that Peninsula. He did not begrudge the money paid for the upkeep of the estate, but he did begrudge the amount paid in rates. The local authorities surely should not in addition to the cost of maintaining the estate make a special charge for rates. The Minister’s attention ought to be directed to that matter.

said he thought the Municipality might be generous on that matter, and he would approach them.

asked the Minister if he had yet had the name of the man who kept a shop in the Court House at Cathcart, erected over the building in which the Magistrate held his Court. (Laughter.)

withdrew his amendments.

The vote was agreed to.

pointed out that they were asked to spend another £1,790 on the creamery at Middelburg. He asked what principle did the Minister go on as to which of those buildings which were provided for should be charged to revenue account and which to loan account. He called attention to several variations in the estimates of the cost of public buildings.

also called attention to the discrepancies in the Estimates, but said evidently they were explained by the fact that a portion of the expenditure was to be charged to loan account, which was a most dangerous principle. He gave details of buildings to cost £15,000 which last year were to be erected out of revenue but which were now to be charged to loan expenditure. It was desirable that some principle should be laid down in this matter.

said the whole of the £87,000 provided for major works under this heading appeared on last year’s Estimates or were authorised by the Treasury during that year. As the funds were provided for out of revenue they had this year provided funds for the completion of these services out of revenue, but all new major works were being debited to loan fund.

Whatever they cost?

With the exception of minor works, for which we have £35,000 on the Estimates.

Where do you draw the line for minor works?

Under £500. The method adopted depended to a great extent on the financial position, continued the Minister. If the country had an overflowing Treasury more public buildings could be erected than in lean years. A very good case indeed could be made for the erection of important public buildings from loan funds. Take, for instance, the Boksburg Police Station and the Heidelberg Industrial School. In the ordinary course they would be built out of loan funds and not out of revenue, and the Committee ought to congratulate the Government on being able to build out of revenue so many of these important works, which might otherwise be charged against loan fund. It was quite true that in many cases the first estimates were lower than the revised estimates. But that was mainly accounted for by the fact that the buildings were enlarged in order to provide increased accommodation. On the other hand many of the revised estimates were lower than the original ones.

said that he desired to call attention to the extremely dangerous financial policy which the Minister had identified himself with. Here they were saddling future years with the interest on these loans.

said that there was an item of £8,000 for the Pretoria buildings which might very well be left over.

said that he also considered the whole principle on which they had been going with reference to this expenditure was absolutely wrong.

said that he concurred in what had been said, by the hon. member for Barkly in regard to this matter.

said he could not quite understand whether the Standerton creamery was the property of the Government. He saw there were two items on the Estimates of £590 and £800 respectively. Would the Minister tell him whether the creamery was in private hands or not?

replied that the creamery had been let by the Government to private persons.

said he noticed there was an item of £1,000 in connection with the Ermelo Stud Farm. He had understood that these stud farms were all to be done away with, and he, therefore, did not see any necessity for expending a further sum of £1,000 upon the one at Ermelo.

said that this money was to be spent on putting down a bore-hole, and although the farm was to be closed down during the present year, the money would not be wasted.

said that if the farm were going to be closed down during this year he really did not see why the Government should incur this further expenditure. He would move to reduce the amount by £800, being the item “Ermelo Stud Sheep Farm—Water Supply”, on page 169.

said that the hon. member was a farmer and landowner, and knew that water supply enhanced the value of farms. It was a permanent asset, and when it was disposed of the farm would fetch an increased price.

made an explanation which was not audible, and said he was quite satisfied the committee would be right in voting the money.

said he was not blaming the Minister of Agriculture, and would withdraw his amendment.

The vote was agreed to.

Progress was reported and leave granted to sit again to-morrow.

withdrew his motion, which he would bring up on the Railway Estimates.

also withdrew his motion.

moved that the resolutions be reported.

The motion was agreed to.

The House having resumed,

moved that the amendments be considered forthwith.

The motion was agreed to.

moved to substitute a revised recommendation for No. 1.

The motion was agreed to.

The report as amended was adopted.

said that in paragraph 3, item 22, C. Pretorius, he wished to move that that item be referred back to the Select Committee for further consideration.

It is impossible to do that. The committee has brought in its final report.

said that was a case where there should be some redress for the man.

Surely the committee cannot dissolve itself; I ask for your ruling.

The recommendations were agreed to, reported, and adopted.

suggested that an official reply should be sent to each petitioner.