from F. A. C. E. Dornbrack, retired from the police force owing to injuries received on duty, for relief.

from S. J. van Niekerk and 66 others, praying that restrictions similar to those placed upon the inhabitants of the Orange Free State trading in Basutoland, be placed upon the inhabitants of Basutoland trading in the Orange Free State.

from G. A. Retief, Alexandria Public School, for condonation of a break in his service.

from E. de Abreu, retired from the railway service owing to injuries received on duty, for relief.

Papers relating to land grants Nos. 71 to 74.

These papers were referred to the Select Committee on Waste Lands.

asked the Minister of Finance what was the average monthly value of bank notes issued throughout the Union in 1913; find what was the total revenue derived thereon by the Government during the year?

A composition duty at the rate of 10s. per cent. of the average monthly circulation within the Union of the notes of any bank during each half-year is imposed, vide item 6 of the Stamp Duties and Fees Act, 1911. During the year 1913 the average monthly circulation of bank notes in the Union was £2,336,790. The total amount of duty collected for the same period was £23,391 10s.

asked whether the Government has taken notice of the fact that the United States of America has placed ostrich feathers under an adverse tariff of 60 per cent., and also imposed a duty of 20 per cent. on cut and 10 per cent. on rough diamonds, and if the Government will consider the advisability of taking retaliatory measures as regards duties on American products imported into this country?

The hon. member’s question seems to imply that the tariff recently brought into operation in the United States of America increases the import duty on ostrich feathers. This, however, is not the case, as the previously existing rates of 20 per cent. on natural feathers and 60 per cent. on dressed and dyed feathers remain unchanged. Nor is the hon. member quite accurate in his reference to diamonds. Under the superseded tariff a 10 per cent. duty was imposed upon cut diamonds; this duty has now been raised to 20 per cent. Uncut diamonds, which were previously on the free list, are now rated at 10 per cent. As regards the suggestion that retaliatory measures should be adopted against American exports to the Union, I venture to point out to the hon. member that it is not reasonable to look only at the increase of 10 per cent. in the diamond rating. Regard should also be had to the reductions in the new American tariff, which are advantageous to the Union. In this connection I would mention wool and maize, which under the previous tariff were heavily rated but are now placed on the free list. Moreover, since our importations from the United States consist very largely of agricultural implements and machinery and fencing wire, it follows that if a policy of retaliation were adopted a considerable proportion of the increased duties would fall to be paid by the agricultural community in the Union. I venture to think that this is not a result that the hon. member would view with satisfaction. (Laughter.)

asked whether it is the intention of the Government to accede to the request of the Natal Agricultural Union to the effect that an officer be appointed to investigate diseases in maize and sweet potatoes?

I am communicating with the Natal Agricultural Union with a view to ascertaining what particular diseases it has in mind, and upon hearing from it I will go carefully into the matter.

asked whether any satisfactory progress has been made in the investigation of red weed in mealies, and whether any recommendations have been made by Professor Pearson?

Professor Pearson has worked out the life history of the “Red Weed,” but unfortunately the drought of the past two years retarded his investigations. An account of Professor Pearson’s investigations and his recommendations are to be found in the “Agricultural Journal” (September, 1911; May, 1912, and November, 1913) and in the annual report of the Department, 1912-13 (page 167).

asked the Minister of Public Works whether he intends, in view of the probability that the construction of the dam by the Rand Water Board across the Vaal River above Parys will be started in the near future, to provide for such sum on the Supplementary Estimates of this year as will enable not only the foundations of the proposed bridge across the Vaal River at Vereeniging to be laid, but the whole work to be completed with all possible speed to the convenience of the public?

It is not proposed to make any provision for a commencement with the bridge during the present financial year. It will be some time before the work contemplated by the Rand Water Board has reached the stage which will effect the level of the water. The question of providing funds for a bridge in the financial year 1915-16 will be borne in mind.

asked whether the attention of the Government has been drawn to a resolution of the Natal Agricultural Union, urging that Government should complete arrangements to ensure that only animals certified as free from hereditary unsoundness should be granted free freight by the Union-Castle mail steamers and admitted through the ports of the Union; and whether it is the intention of the Government to move in this direction?

Under existing regulations a veterinary inspection of all animals is made immediately prior to shipment, and in the case of animals of the equine species a certificate by a qualified veterinary surgeon must accompany the pedigree to, the effect that the animal is free from hereditary disease.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will cause to be collected and published from time to time in the “Agricultural Journal,” such information and advice as may be procurable with reference to the establishment of an export trade in beef, mutton and lamb, including facilities for chilling and freezing meat at the ports, current prices in the European and American markets, etc.?

I shall be pleased to do this.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the Minister will bring before the Administration the consideration of special rates for meat for export?

There are other considerations to be faced, besides the introduction of low rates for rail transport, before an export trade in meat can be satisfactorily established and developed; but once it is demonstrated that meat can be exported in reasonable quantities and with some degree of regularity, and that the traffic is one likely to be capable of development, the Administration will be prepared to give careful consideration to the question of the introduction of special export rates.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours what is the scale of the wages paid to (European workmen at present employed on railway construction between Aliwal North and Rouxville, and how does that scale compare with the ruling scale for similar work in other parts of the Union?

The wage paid depends upon the length of service, grade and skill of the workman concerned, and ranges, in the case of European workmen—other than labourers—from 6s. to 13s. 6d. per day. White labourers at daily rates are paid from 3s. 6d. to 5s. per day, according to length of service. The rates of pay on this line are identical with those in operation on other new lines for men of the same service and experience and work of the same nature. On this line the amount so far earned by white labourers in “butty” gangs averages 3s. 10½d. per day, but the majority of the men have only been at work for a week or two and are quite inexperienced. As regards the “butty” gangs, uniform rates are in operation for the different classes of soil, but there is a considerable variation in the amount which can be earned by different men working under exactly similar conditions. Much depends upon the individual efforts of the labourers themselves and the experience they have had of this class of work.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether it is a fact that no extra charge is made by the Railway Department in respect of traffic loaded at private sidings in the Cape Province, whereas an extra charge of 2d. per 2,000 lbs. is made in respect of similar traffic in Natal, and, if so, whether it is the intention of the Administration to remedy the inequality?

The answer to the first part of this question is in the negative. The usual sidings charge in the Cape Province, under the old agreement, is 5d. per ton of 2,000 lbs., but at certain sidings no special charges were raised in respect of traffic consigned to the Orange Free State and Transvaal. However, since the 1st inst. a sidings charge of 2d. per ton—the same charge as is applicable in Natal—has been imposed on traffic to these two Provinces loaded at private sidings in the Cape. Private sidings owners in the Cape who have signed the standard sidings agreement pay 2d. per ton of 2,000 lbs. on all traffic handled at their sidings, so that the only traffic now exempt from sidings charges is sugar cane—a Natal product.

asked whether provision is made for instructing candidates for commissions in the Defence Force in gunnery through the medium of the Dutch language?

Instruction for artillery purposes is given in the permanent batteries, to which two Dutch-speaking officers of the late Transvaal Staats Artillerie are attached. There is, therefore, adequate provision for instruction in Dutch.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that the experience thus far gained of the working of the South Africa Act has revealed the weak points of the same, and with the object of effecting a comprehensive review of its provisions and working, it is his intention during the recess to adopt the course followed in the past with great benefit by other countries of appointing a Commission, consisting, as far as expedient of members of the South African National Convention, to inquire into the working of the Act and to suggest such amendments as may be deemed necessary for the removal of the difficulties and inconveniences which at present exist, for placing the Act on a permanent and sound workable basis, and for ensuring its smooth and beneficial working in the interests of the Union?

The answer is in the negative.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether it is a fact that in certain offices in the Postal Department men are being employed with their wives and children in the same office; (2) if so, how many cases there are; and (3) whether such a system is not directly opposed to the best interests of the Public Service?

(1) Yes. (2) About 30 in all throughout the Union. Only at two country post offices, where the work is not sufficient to warrant the appointment of an assistant, are wives officially assisting their husbands in Post Office work. In 16 cases sons or daughters of officers are employed in the same building as their fathers, but not in the same branch. (3) It is not considered that the interests of the work or the Public Service are adversely affected thereby.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he is prepared to give instructions, in view of the large traffic there, (a) for the construction at Delmansdorp Station of (i) a proper platform and (ii) a kraal for the loading and unloading of stock, and (b) for the erection of a gate south of the aforesaid station, from which side a great portion of the traffic emanates, seeing that great inconvenience is now being, caused to the residents concerned, as, owing to the absence of such a gate, they have to go a round-about way in order to reach the station with their wagons and goods?

(a) (i) There is a “low-level” platform at Delmas similar to those provided at other stations of a like nature, and the traffic dealt with does not warrant the expenditure which would be involved in erecting a platform of the standard height, (ii) A substantial extension to the loading bank has recently been completed, and the erection of a cattle kraal is well in hand. (b) There is a large gate on the south side of the station, but notwithstanding that there is no level crossing there, horses were constantly ridden over the signal wires and across the line to the north side where the loading facilities are situated. Under the circumstances the gate had perforce to be closed, but a swing gate was provided for the convenience of foot passengers. There are two crossings, one east and one west of the station. One of them is only about 600 yards distant, and apart from the undesirability of providing an additional crossing within the station precincts there are physical difficulties in the way. The township is on the north side of the line, and the bulk of the traffic to and from the station is with the township. Certain traffic also comes to the station from the south, but the greater proportion of this traffic comes from a direction which enables the existing crossings to be used en route to the station without causing inconvenience.

asked (1) Whether there is any person who provides for the spiritual wants of the lepers on Robben Island who, do not belong to the Episcopalian, Dutch Reformed or Roman Catholic Church; (2) if so, was any promise of remuneration for his services made to him by the Government; and (3) if so, has such promise been fulfilled?

(1) Yes. A minister of a Christian Brotherhood visits all denominations without remuneration from Government. Representatives of the Moravian and other churches and missions also visit from time to time. It is usual for patients desiring religious ministrations, for whom no salaried or regular clergy, are available, to attend the services of the church which proximates to their own form of faith. It is customary for all leper funerals to be conducted by one or other of the resident clergymen. (2) No promise of remuneration has been made.

asked what was the number of hours worked overtime and what were the total amounts paid for overtime to (a) railway employees and (b) harbour employees in each Province for the year ending 31st December, 1913, and also for the four months ending 30th April, 1914?

laid the information on the Table and stated that as a considerable amount of time and expenditure was involved in the preparation of the return he hoped the hon. member would not press for a further one.

asked: (1) What was the number of accidents (i) fatal and (ii) non-fatal resulting in injury to railway and harbour employees engaged in or about (a) shunting operations and (b) other work for the year ending 31st December, 1913, showing (i) number of Europeans and (ii) other than Europeans; and (2) what were the amounts paid out in compensation for loss of life in the case of (a) Europeans and (b) other than Europeans?

replied: (1) This information was supplied on Tuesday last in reply to a question by the hon. member for Springs. (2) (a) £8,448; (b) £180.

asked: (1) Whether there are cold storage buildings in the Union in which produce, such as meat, butter, eggs, etc., can be stored by farmers; and, if so (2) where such cold storage buildings are situated; (3) for what period such produce can be stored in such buildings; and (4) what is the amount of rent charged for such storage?

replied: (1) Yes. (2) There is extensive cold storage accommodation in most of the large towns in the Union including Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, East London, Durban, Pietermaritzburg, Johannesburg, Pretoria, Bloemfontein, and Kimberley. There is also a cold store at Vryburg and several of the creameries situated in various parts of the country also have cold storage. There are also partially equipped cold stores at Porterville-road, Hutchinson, Beaufort West, Aliwal North, and Dundee (Natal) which could readily be completed if required. During and immediately after the war large cold stores were erected for the importation of meat and dairy products, and at present these are by no means fully occupied. There is also a tendency on the part of the municipalities of the larger towns to erect cold stores in conjunction with the abattoirs and markets. (3) The meaning of this question is not quite clear. The cold stores are prepared to store produce for any length of time provided it will not damage other produce. If slaughtered properly and promptly chilled prior to freezing, beef and mutton, if frozen, will keep from three to six months without deterioration; whilst chilled meat will keep for three weeks. Butter will keep for six months if thoroughly well made, but low grade butter will keep only a very short time. (4) The usual rates are in the neighbourhood of 1½d. per cubic foot per week or part thereof; but much depends upon the quantity of produce offered and the length of time it remains in storage. From four to six carcases of beef and from 14 to 18 carcases of mutton go to the ton of 40 cubic feet.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether the Minister is aware that the contract for supplies to Camperdown Gaol, Natal, was given to an Indian in preference to a European tenderer, although their prices were practically equal, with the exception of mealies and meal; (2) the European’s tender for butcher meat being lower, was this the only portion of the contract offered to him, and on his refusal to accept this item alone was he informed that he would not be allowed to tender in future years; (3) would it not have been more to the advantage of the Department to have offered the European the contract with the exception of the two items, mealies and meal; and (4) does this method of discouragement in Natal of European traders represent the policy of the Government?

(1) My attention has been called to the fact that the contract for supplies to the Camper-down Gaol, Natal, has been given to an Indian merchant named H. E. Engar. Four persons tendered in respect of the said service. Of these two tendered each for two items only. The other two tenderers who tendered for most of the items were W. E. Allsopp and H. E. Engar. The magistrate recommended the tender of H. E. Engar for all except two items, for which he had not tendered, and in respect of which he recommended W. E. Allsopp. The tenders received show that Engar’s tender for mealies was 1s. 5d. per bag lower than Allsopp’s. For mealie meal it was 1s. per bag lower than Allsopp’s. For paraffin oil it was 3d. lower than Allsopp’s, and for salt it was ¼d. per pound lower than Allsopp’s. On the other heads, viz.: beans, bread, coffee, rice, soap, and sugar, that were in order, they were equal. One of Allsopp’s items was, however, not in order. The tenders were thereupon dealt with by the Director of Prisons, and Engar’s tender accepted as a whole in accordance with the magistrate’s recommendation. Allsopp’s tender for beef and mutton, for which Engar did not tender, was also accepted; (2) Mr. Allsopp having refused to carry out his tender for meat he had to be reported to the Tender Board as required by Tender Board Regulations. Under Regulation 20 of the Tender Board if any person withdraws his tender no tender from him shall be considered for 5 years thereafter, with power to the Board to reduce or withdraw this restriction. I understand that under this Regulation the Tender Board has intimated to Mr. Allsopp that it will not consider tenders from him for a period of one year; (3) No; (4) There was no question or idea of discouragement of European traders. On the papers submitted to the Director of Prisons the race of the tenderer recommended by the magistrate was not indicated, but even had this appeared from the papers the Tender Board Regulations permit of no discrimination on the ground of race, and the ordinary practice was followed of the tender more favourable to the Government being accepted.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the Minister is aware that a circular has been issued by the Railway Department stating that on the Mooi River-Est-court deviation there will be a surplus of station foremen, and asking for the names of foremen who will revert to the position of guards; and, if so, could not some of these surplus men be utilised to give occasional relief to the many station foremen between Durban and Ladysmith who are on continuous night duty, in accordance with the recommendation of the Grievances Commission (in respect of claim No. 80) on page 37 of the report?

It was at one time anticipated that the opening of the Estcourt-Mooi River deviation would result in four station foremen becoming redundant, and with the view of meeting the wish frequently expressed by certain foremen to be appointed as guards, district inspectors were requested to ascertain the names of any station foremen desirous of transferring to guards’ positions. Since then, however, the foremen expected to become redundant have been absorbed, either through ordinary wastage or as a result of the strengthening of the relief staff, and each foreman displaced was required to fill an appointment elsewhere in the same grade. Everything possible is being done to obviate continuous night duty for excessive periods. In filling vacancies where there are alternate day and night shifts prior consideration is given to the claims of men who have been on continuous night duty for any considerable time.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether it is a fact that second-hand steel sleepers were brought down from the Transvaal to be used as fencing standards on the Stuart’s Town railway in Natal and distributed along that railway last year; (2) whether it is a fact that this year orders were given to the platelayers to pick out the best of these sleepers to be returned again up-country for other work; and, if so, (3) what has been the cost of the unnecessary handling, transport, and boring; and (4) taking into consideration the cost of boring holes for wires, the value of them as sleepers and their general unsuitability for fencing standards, would it not be more economical to use ordinary standards for fencing work?

I have given instructions that investigations are to be made in regard to the matters to which attention has been directed by the hon. member.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he is aware that passengers travelling to and from Parow are compelled to cross the track at great personal risk of being run over by passing trains, and when he intends to construct a footbridge to meet the convenience of passengers travelling to and fro?

The question of the erection of an overhead footbridge at Parow has already been raised, and is at present under consideration.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he is aware that the platform at Goodwood is much below the proper level, which entails risk of injury to passengers entering or leaving trains, and when he proposes to raise the platform to the proper level?

There is a platform at Goodwood, though not of the standard height, but there are many other stations without the facilities provided at Good-wood, the claims of which will require consideration by the Administration before it would be justified in incurring the expenditure which would be involved in erecting a “high-level” platform at that place.

asked the Minister of Public Works: (1) Whether a number of white unskilled labourers working for the Department at Meintjes Kop, Pretoria, have recently been discharged, and, if so, how many; and (2) whether the work previously done by these men is now being carried on by native convicts?

asked that the question be allowed to stand over.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries: (1) Whether a portion of the farm London, district Bloemhof, was proclaimed about two years ago; (2) whether on the unproclaimed portion digging for diamonds has been for some time going on; (3 whether the diggers on this unproclaimed portion have to pay the owners of the farm 20s. apiece for small claims 45 feet square, as well as ten per cent. on the value of all diamonds found; and (4) whether a petition, signed by a number of these diggers, was some six weeks ago sent to the Government praying for the proclamation of this unproclaimed portion of the farm, and whether the Government propose to proclaim it as prayed by the petitioners?

(1) The answer is in the affirmative. (2) Prospecting has been going on on the unproclaimed portion of the farm. (3) I have no certain information at present as to the exact terms on which prospecting has been allowed by the owners. (4) The answer is in the affirmative. The Government is taking steps to proclaim an additional area on the farm.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether it is a fact that there is a number of drivers in the Cape Province who have reached the pensionable ago and are not allowed to retire; and (2) that two drivers at Queen’s Town were advised that they were to be retired in April last, and, after making arrangements, were informed that they could not be spared owing to the shortage of drivers?

(1) No; the general experience of the Administration is that drivers are desirous of being retained beyond the age limit. As a result of representations made to the Cape Government by the men themselves a few years prior to Union, it was agreed to regard the pensionable age of drivers who were contributors to the Civil Service Pension Fund as 55, instead of 50 years; but this was in the nature of a concession to the men, and does not affect the legal position. (2) Inquiries are being made in regard to these two cases.

asked the Minister of Finance whether he has seen a report appearing in the “Natal Mercury” of the 3rd instant, in which the Parliamentary representative of that paper states that the Government is arranging to have the Income Tax Bill and the Land Tax Bill, now before the House, defeated in the Senate, and whether in view of the time likely to be occupied in the consideration of those measures by this House, the Minister will say if there is any truth in the statement referred to?

Yes, I have seen the report. It is so ridiculous that it deserves no notice.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries what are the daily hours of labour and average rate of pay of white men employed on the “floors” of De Beers Co.?

In reply to a question asked by Mr. Sampson some time ago with reference to wages and hours in connection with work on the “floors” of the De Beers Company, I have to reply that the statistical returns obtained by the department for compilation purposes do not give these details, and where information regarding wages or hours is obtained from firms or companies it is the policy of the department not to publish details of individual undertakings.

Return showing area of Crown Land in Rustenburg District, etc.; amount of money spent on permanent improvements; and number of whites settled thereon since 1910 in each ward, and the number of these settlers who are on the land to-day.

That in view of the importance to South Africa of the export trade of grain, this House is of opinion that the Government should take into consideration the advisability of (1) Making provision at the various grain centres in the Union for the grading of grain before it is transported to the coast by rail, by the appointment of a grader for each centre equipped with proper instruments for testing grain for moisture, the expenses in connection with such appointments to be met by an addition to the railway rate of, say, 1d. per bag; and (2) providing that the Railway Administration should accept the responsibility for the delivery of grain at the port in the same condition as placed on the railway, the necessary extra charge for railway risk being imposed.

The hon. member explained the object of his motion, pointing out that it was of the greatest interest for the whole country, and especially for the Free State. The Government had already done a good deal towards creating an export trade in grain, and the farmers were making a very free use of the opportunities which had been offered them. A difficulty had, however, arisen owing to the fact that the railway administration would not guarantee to deliver the goods in good condition at the harbours. The speaker said he had on previous occasions brought forward proposals in a similar spirit to that of the present one, but the Minister had objected that a larger staff would be required and a greater expenditure would be incurred. The speaker found it a little difficult to see that, holding as he did that the work could be done with the existing staff, as long as they possessed a sufficient supply of tarpaulins for use on the railway. The present position of affairs was that on arrival at the ports there were sometimes thousands of bags of grain which were condemned. The number of bags condemned at Cape Town came to no less than 146,000. In order to meet the extra expenses involved in the acceptance of his motion he was proposing to charge an additional penny per bag. That would be sufficient to meet the extra costs. He could not understand that the grain would get wet during the railway journey if it were properly covered over. It was dry when it was sent away, and the fault evidently arose during the train journey. The result was that the farmers were afraid to send away grain for export. That fact was shown in the export figures, which during the last few years had gone down. In 1911 they exported 1,016,449 bags; in 1912, 832,741; in 1913, 131,318; and since January, 1914, 192,929 bags. Of course, the drought and other causes had contributed to this diminution, but at the same time it could not be denied that the large number of bags that were condemned had a good deal to do with it. The matter was one of interest for the whole country, and he hoped, therefore, that the Government would accept the motion.

said it had his hearty support, as he considered the exportation of grain was one of the most important matters in the interest of South Africa. It could not be denied that the grain, sent in a dry condition, arrived at the ports in a wet condition, and that it was then condemned. He had had personal experience in the matter, followed by a good deal of correspondence with the railway administration, which, however, produced no effect. He acknowledged that there were difficulties to be encountered, but he did not believe they were insurmountable. Both the farmer and the trader would be willing to contribute something in order to bring about a better condition of affairs. The continual condemning of grain which had been sent away in a good condition tended to discourage the traders. They did not always want to go to court on such matters in order to fight the issue out there, and preferred rather to suffer the loss. He hoped, therefore, that the Government would accept the motion in order that they might obtain an improvement in the conditions at present attendant on their grain export trade.

said his district exported about half a million bags of grain in one year. Farmers in his district fully realised the present difficulties and felt that something should be done. They were quite prepared to pay the extra penny per bag as suggested in the motion. Speaking from his own experience, he could say that mealies had been placed in the train dry, but on arrival at the port were found to be wet. And he had seen large shipments of mealies exposed to heavy showers in the railway stations without a sail being placed over the bags. He therefore trusted the Government would accept the motion. Unless something of the sort was done, the maize export trade would be killed.

also supported the motion and argued that grain farmers at present suffered great hardships through the Government failing to provide the protection to which they were entitled. The stuff was sent away dry and arrived wet, and it was the duty of the Government to bring about a radical change.

said as a Transvaaler he also wished to say a few words. He could not say anything about the mealies getting wet, but he knew that it happened sometimes that certain portions of shipments of mealies went astray on their way from the station of despatch to the doeks. Where did they get to? There were 400 bags of mealies lying in the Cape Town Docks in excess of the weight stated. Such a quantity meant a great deal to a poor man, and the loss could not take place if responsibility was accepted by the Department when the goods were received by them. The farmers were willing to pay a penny extra for the guarantee.

said the Government should take care that the reputation of the South African mealies did not suffer There were merchants who were very particular as to the grain they bought. If farmers shipped dry mealies together with wet mealies, then both the people who shipped dry as well as wet mealies suffered equally, and he trusted the Government would accept the motion so as to see to it that the careful farmer did not suffer through the carelessness of the other man.

said the motion spoke of grain, but hon. members had in their speeches only referred to mealies. What surprised him was that although the mover of the motion only proposed to pay a penny extra per bag, he took no notice of the additional expense which might be involved if the motion was accepted. The additional expenditure would be heavy, and the views expressed by hon. members who had supported the motion had greatly surprised him, especially because these were the very members who had rated the Government for extravagance. The penny extra per bag would only bring in £541; which would not be sufficient to cover expenses. Why should this resolution apply to grain only, and not to fruit as well? He for one could not support the motion until it was shown that the extra charge proposed would cover the extra expenses.

said under the motion a revenue of £4,235 would have been derived in 1911 from the additional penny per bag. This, he claimed, would easily have paid for the appointment of graders. Referring to the remarks of the hon. member for Worcester, Mr. Wilcocks said that a grader was to be appointed for the grading of fruit, but the fruit farmers did not pay for this. Personally, the speaker did not believe very much in an export trade for grain, as he thought the country was not yet sufficiently advanced, but still, now that it had actually been created, it was necessary to take the proper measures to protect it. He hoped, therefore, the Government would accept the motion.

also supported the motion, and expressed regret at the remarks of the hon. member for Worcester. Last year the Transvaal exported close on two and a-half million bags of mealies, from which a considerable amount of revenue would have been derived. An extra penny per bag last year would have produced £4,416. South Africa was looking for markets and the Government should do its best to help.

said he would like to make a few suggestions as a buyer and exporter. The fact that the buyers were not sure that the maize would be delivered in good condition militated against large purchases. He had himself seen in the Lady brand districts grain lying at railway stations without any sort of cover whatever in wet weather. He suggested that the Railway Department should provide sheds and wagon sheets for the maize and make a charge for their use. The question of grading was not such a serious one, as the buyers were commencing to do that for themselves. The great drawback was the uncertainty as to the condition of the maize after the Railway Department had handled it. If the industry were encouraged it would be a very valuable asset to South Africa.

said he wished only to deal with the second part of the motion. He saw no reason, so far as the railways were concerned, why the motion should be opposed. If the full tariff rate were paid, of course the railways would be quite prepared to take the whole risk. It should be understood that the export tariff had been introduced with the clear proviso that the railways should bear no responsibility. There was no country in the world where goods for export were carried so cheaply as in South Africa. And this applied more particularly to the carriage of mealies. The distance from Kroonstad to Durban is 408 miles, and to Cape Town 880, whilst the tariff in both cases is 10s. per ton. That 10s. per ton covered all costs in the harbour and loading on the ships. Out of the 10s. the harbour got 1s. 4d., and the railways got the balance, namely, 8s. 8d. The tariff amounted, therefore, to ¼d. per ton per mile to Durban, and ⅛d. per ton per mile to Cape Town. Under these conditions the railways could not possibly take any responsibility. Of course if farmers were prepared to pay ordinary rates the railways could take full responsibility. As to the argument that a number of bags were sometimes lost en route, he wished to point out that as far as the number of bags carried was concerned, the railways were prepared to accept full responsibility for the proper number being delivered if an extra penny per bag was paid. If, however, all the facilities asked for, such as tarpaulins and new warehouses had to be given, then, of course, the full tariff would have to be enforced. He doubted, however, whether the change in the condition of the mealies between the station of despatch and the docks was not due to the farmer himself. It might, perhaps, sometimes happen that the bags got wet; but generally, he thought, the fault should be laid at the door of the farmer himself. He accepted the second part of the motion.

said he thought there was more to be said in favour of a certificate at the harbours than at the stations of despatch, because after all if they wished to maintain their reputation they had to see that the mealies were shipped in proper condition. Heavy costs were already connected with the grading of grain at the ports, and if graders had to be appointed at all centres the expenses would be too high. The inspection of mealies was not cheap. In 1910-11 it came to £3,900, in 1911-12 £4,057, in 1912-13 £3,561, and in 1913-14 £1,656. Even as it was, they could not cover expenses out of the revenue. In the circumstances he hoped that the hon. member would withdraw his motion.

said he could not understand the argument of the Minister of Railways and Harbours, who said he was prepared to accept the second part of the motion, but that farmers would have to pay full rates. The point, however, was that the Railway Department should take responsibility for the grain as placed on the train. He did not think there should be any objections to the motion, which would be greatly to the benefit of farmers. No great expense would be incurred.

The motion was negatived.

That in the opinion of this House the Government should consider the advisability of appointing at an early date a Commission to inquire into Post Office grievances, such Commission to be constituted on similar lines to the Railway Grievances Commission appointed in July, 1913. The mover said that for some time he had been endeavouring to bring this matter before the House. Hon. members knew how difficult it was for any private member to bring before the House any matter of any kind. Private members were now only allowed four hours, and this was the last day they would get even four hours. He wondered if the people knew the state of affairs in Parliament, and what a mockery it was to ask any member to bring in a Bill when he could hardly get the chance to bring in a motion. He had been trying hard to bring this motion before the House for some weeks, and he was glad that at last his time had come. Last year he brought up the matter at as late a stage of the session as on this occasion, and to help the House he did not take up much time. But he was taunted by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs for not having brought forward enough to prove his case. If on that occasion he had taken more time he supposed he would have been told that he was taking up too much time. Unwilling as he was to take up time, he was afraid he would have to take up more than on the last occasion, and if a satisfactory settlement was not come to the matter would be brought up again next year. The first claim of these men on the Government was that there were real grievances among them. They could not get justice, and they could not get their claims considered, and when they came to the House, as they were told to do, the House had not the time to listen to them. He pointed out that when these men were asked to take a short cut in order to get their grievances remedied they refused, and he did not know whether the House sufficiently appreciated their attitude on that occasion. It was appreciated, however, by the Postmaster-General and the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs and on that ground the men were entitled to special consideration. The striking feature about this business was that complaints were made by men in all the Provinces.

He pointed out that the time had gone by when employers could treat their men merely as hands, and he pointed out that if a demand of the men were unreasonable or improper it was the simplest thing in the world to prove that to the men. There was some excuse—not much—for the private employer in competition with other firms being careful about what he paid his men, but there was not the slightest excuse for the Government underpaying. A good example on the part of the Government would be far better than any remedial legislation the wits of members of the Government could devise. The men asked for a Parliamentary inquiry on the same lines as the railway inquiry. The Minister agreed to inquire into these matters himself, and did make an inquiry, though it was not satisfactory by any means. At the Pretoria inquiry the Minister met the men at 10 o’clock and said he could not stay longer than 12.45, and as there were 40 separate grievances, it only allowed four minutes per grievance. However, the Minister sat until 1.15, and in the evening also gave up a couple of hours, but all the time he reminded the men’s representatives of the flight of time and his engagements. The result was at the close 23 of the grievances had not even been considered. A departmental inquiry had been suggested, but the men did not want anything of that sort. Then it was suggested that they should go to the Civil Service Commission, and in his (Mr. Quinn’s) ignorance he imagined that that was the right place. The Civil Service Commission, however, in its second report stated that there appeared to be an idea in the minds of officers and the public that the Commission was constituted to deal with claims and grievances of the public service, but that this was not so, for the Commission only dealt with those matters referred to it by Ministers. It showed what an utter farce the Commission was in relation to the public service. He went on to quote the Commission’s report to show that out of 109 grievances the Minister only submitted four to the Commission. He considered that the Commission was a sham, a delusion and a snare.

He understood that the Minister had a complete answer, and he was anxious to hear what it was It all went to show that when they asked the Civil Service of the country to have confidence in the Civil Service Commission they were only asking them to do something they could not possibly do. He thought it was time the House should inquire into the functions of the Civil Service Commission. No redress could be found by any Civil Servant by application to the Commission—there was no redress in that direction at all. Certain concessions had been made to the men last year. Last year the Government made concessions which involved an additional expenditure of £7,000. That worked out per man at 1s. 5d. per month. The Government had made concessions which amounted to 17s. 1d. per annum for the whole of the service. At the same time the Government had issued a circular of 14 pages, in which they made an attempt to deal with the grievanees the men had placed before them. If there were time he would like to read that circular. The men in reply had printed a pamphlet, in which they answered the long and cumbersome statement of the Government. Proceeding, Mr. Quinn quoted at some length from the pamphlet issued by the Post Office employees. He did not think it should be necessary for him to say anything further in order to persuade the House to take that matter into consideration—the men had appealed to them, had appealed to that House. They had tried the Minister and had failed. The Minister had particularly failed to deal with the matter. The two circulars from which he had quoted, the 14 pages printed by the Government and the little book giving the men’s reply, justified the demand for an inquiry by some independent body. The men had always been at a disadvantage. If the Minister was right, nothing would be easier than to have a Commission to investigate the matter. There were certain grievances which he had only touched on, but which affected all the four Provinces equally. In December last a petition was sent by the employees to the Governor-General-in-Council by the Transvaal men. This was signed by 90 per cent. of the staff in the Transvaal, and was sent to the Minister. He (Mr. Quinn) went on to quote from the petition, and said that the Act of Union laid down that any Civil Servant should retain all existing rights that had existed before Union. The men now were, nevertheless, worse off than they were before the the Act of Union. The Economic Commission’s report showed that £60 per year was only about half of what a man should receive as local allowance in the Transvaal. A mass meeting of post office employees had been held and had expressed its keen disappointment with the Government’s reply. Without a shadow of doubt the post office employees were absolutely justified, and he wanted to ask the House how long that state of affairs was to be allowed to continue—how long must it be before those men were going to be satisfied?

We were running a very serious risk. Had the Postal and Telegraph officials held a pistol at the head of the Government last July or January would there have been an inquiry? They were a superior class of men; they had good sense, ability and knowledge. Men of this kind could not be deceived, and when they moved they would move strongly. They desired a proper inquiry, and why Government did not grant it he did not know. On the other hand, if Government had truth and justice on its side it should make that fact known. The Postal and Telegraph employees were grossly overworked, and sometimes they worked as much as 13½ hours a day. Unless the House came to some decision today, and unless the Government gave a satisfactory answer, the time of Parliament would be used up by members bringing up the men’s grievances on the Estimates, and that was what he wished to avoid, for the agitation would go on until the men had been given some sort of satisfaction. The men should be told exactly where they were, but at present the Government was simply playing with fire. Surely the country had had enough lessons in the wrong way of handling men. He was convinced that in the main the contentions of the Postal and Telegraph employees were just.

in seconding the motion, said he was sorry the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle (Mr. Alexander)—who was known as the hon. member for the Post Office—was not here this afternoon, as it was understood that he was going to take up the parable of the hon. member for Troyeville. One thing that seemed to be borne out was that there was an undercurrent of dissatisfaction on the part of the men. They complained of a great number of things—each item of which perhaps did not amount to much, but it was the multiplicity of small things that seemed to worry them out of all pleasure and interest in their work. When people read that the five thousand or six thousand men engaged in the Post and Telegraphs Department were on the eve of breaking out on strike last January they were very much alarmed. He understood the reason the men were pacified then was that they were given to understand that their grievances would be brought prominently before the Minister, and that if the Minister failed them then the grievances would be brought before the notice of Parliament. It was with the latter object that the hon. member for Troyeville had introduced his motion. During the last 12 years the grievances of the Postal officials had been brought prominently under the notice of Parliament, and, he was sorry to say, it was always the same case. He did not blame the Minister who conducted the department so ably, but it had been an unfortunate coincidence that every Minister who had had charge of the Post and Telegraph Department had either incurred the same blame or ignored the existence of the grievances. There was one gentleman who said that if he were returned to Parliament he would do his best to get their grievances redressed, but he proved a broken reed when he got into the House, Last year he (Sir Bissett) told the Minister that the men were snubbed because they asked for recognition for their association. The Minister practically told the House that he (the speaker) did not know what he was talking about, and he also told the House he did not know there was an association in this part of the world. He pointed out that even in a bureaucratic country like Germany such officials were recognised by the Government. The men were encouraged to form associations through which their grievances could be brought to the notice of the Government. He then referred to one of the things about which the men complained. The Public Service Commission brought a proposal before the Government with regard to those who had passed a course of technical training getting first chance when vacancies occurred. The Government agreed with this proposal, but the men now complained that the Government had broken its promise. Even if the majority of these grievances were found to be ill-founded he thought that something should be done in order to satisfy the men.

regretted that there was such a small attendance of members during the discussion of such an important matter. Although the hon. the mover did his best to place the facts before the House, there were facts of which he was not aware. The postal service was comprised of two branches—Administrative and Clerical, and the General Division. There were subbranches in the former—the Administrative Branch and the Executive Branch. The men in these branches numbered 3,211. The General Division numbered 5,050. The grievances now under discussion came almost exclusively from the 2,000 men who belonged to what was known as the general body. He claimed that he did fulfill his promise, and made an inquiry, and that as the result of that inquiry the position of many men had been improved. The grievances were separate in each particular Province. He gave the men every opportunity to discuss their grievances, and to lay them fully before him; they had round table talks, which lasted many hours, and in each case they expressed their satisfaction at their treatment. The report of the proceedings was not that he had choked them off but that he had given them a sympathetic hearing.

said that always happened.

said if the hon. member thought that men who had been choked off would express themselves in that way he had very little respect for them. He (the Minister) had more respect for the men in the Post Office than to think that they would misrepresent matters so as to make him believe that they had had a sympathetic hearing, if they felt they had been choked off. Not only did the men state their case, but they had a friendly discussion, and he felt sure that they were expressing their true sentiments when they stated that they received a sympathetic hearing. Every point which was raised was dealt with by the Government, and their wishes were met as far as possible, but where it was not possible to meet them there was no promise to do so. Those grievances were 109 in number, but a good many were repeated from the different Provinces; those repetitions were excluded and reduced the number to 97. All the public service were interested in something like 13 of the grievances, such as the necessity for providing houses for officials and so on, and there were other grievances regarding the betterment of conditions. There were 21 of these, and there were 40 miscellaneous suggestions regarding the working of the Post Office, not grievances in the ordinary sense, but directions in which the staff thought that the working arrangements could be improved.

said that 23 of those were undiscussed.

said that there were five pre-Union grievances and 14 in connection with grading which were introduced by the Government after the Reorganising Committee had reported. There were also four which he might say were connected with the legal interpretation of the Act of Union and other Acts of Parliament, making 97 altogether. The deputation did not ask the Public Service Commission to go into the matter—they asked the Government. They rather demurred to the Commission being looked upon as an advisory body to deal with appeals. A few weeks afterwards the Postmaster-General wired to the various postmasters throughout the country that the Government had referred certain of the grievances to the Public Service Commission, and as soon as their recommendations had been received the matter would be dealt with. Then the detailed reply which had been referred to was issued.

Some regret had been expressed that those grievances had not been submitted to the Public Service Commission, but he would give hon. members some idea of the futility of submitting those grievances to that body. They were not proper matters to lay before the Public Service Commission. For instance, it was urged that male porters should assist in moving mail bags, that junior assistants were taking duties similar to those of senior men; another grievance was that the quality of the Union uniforms issued was not up to the mark, and that the Government had withdrawn free railway passes. The last-named, said the Minister, was a matter which was settled by the Act of Union, which provided that the railways should be run on business principles. He proceeded to detail other grievances which hon. members would admit could be better dealt with by the Administration itself than by the Public Service Commission. Then there was the demand for full political rights. It had been laid down in the policy of the public services throughout the British Empire also that it was undesirable for public servants to take part in the politics of the country. (Hear, hear.)

Why should they not?

at this point asked the hon. member for Springs (Mr. Madeley) not to make so many interjections.

said he was to some extent to blame for taking too much notice of the interjections. What he was trying to do was to give the House some idea of the futility of submitting those grievances to the Public Service Commission: Another grievance was the request for the appointment of a standing Appeal Board. To his mind the public services were sufficiently protected under the Act of 1912, and there was no necessity for an Appeal Board. Then there were other grievances relating to the Act of Union, and which were matters which could not be dealt with by the Commission, but the Administration itself, or by the Government where questions of policy were at stake. He was sorry that that Commission’s report had given Parliament and the country to understand that of the 109 grievances only four were submitted to the Public Service Commission, thereby defeating the intention of the staff. He wanted to remove the impression in the minds of hon. members of that House that the clerks wanted those grievances to be submitted to the Public Service Commission. They asked for the decision of the Government and made no request that any of them should be submitted to the Commission. Four of them were submitted to the Commission, and that was because he (the Minister) wanted the benefit of their advice and experience. With regard to grievances generally, perhaps he ought to explain what the ordinary course was With reference to any grievance which an individual in the posts and telegraphs service might have, it was first investigated by the Surveyor of the district. The Union was divided into Postal districts—for instance, there were two in the Cape Province—and it was the Surveyor’s business, first of all, as the man in touch with the Postmaster and the men under him, to adjust the complaint satisfactorily to all concerned if possible. If that could not be done, it went to the Secretary of the Post Office—one of the principal officers under the Postmaster-General. If his decision was not accepted by the officer who had, or thought he had, a grievance, then the matter went to the Postmaster-General; if the officer concerned was not satisfied with the decision of the Postmaster-General, he could then ask that the matter should be laid before the Public Service Commission, and in every case, with the exception of a few he would mention, that request was complied with. The Commission’s recommendations were laid before the Minister, and in 99 cases out of 100 the recommendations were accepted, and the officer was informed accordingly.

The only grievances during his term of office which had not been submitted to the Public Service Commission were matters which had already formed the subject of a recommendation from the Public Service Commission, which had already formed the subject of a recommendation of the Commission or a decision by the Government or cases which were so extremely frivolous that he did not think them worthy of being submitted to the Public Service Commission, As far as he remembered, there were only two of these frivolous cases. One arose out of an altercation which a postal officer in Cape Town had with the Stationmaster, Cape Town, with regard to the mail bags. He declined to trouble the Commission with that matter. The only other case of that nature which he could remember was where a young man was transferred from Johannesburg to some portion of the Cape Province. He objected to go. He was told that it was his duty to go where he was told, as the Service wa3 a Union Service. He (the Minister) declined to allow that matter to go to the Public Service Commission, because the Postmaster-General as the officer appointed under the Post Office Act was responsible for carrying on the work of the Department. There were other cases, of course, where it seemed to be unnecessary that they should be sent to the Commission. For instance, exactly the same question had been raised by more than one officer. If a question which involved a legal interpretation had been investigated, and a decision given, it seemed a waste of time to submit the same point to the Commission. With these exceptions every man in the Post Office who asked that his case should go to the Public Service Commission had had his request granted. The hon. member on the other side was anxious to know what they had done with these grievances. The position was that, out of 97, 20 had been redressed, or steps had been taken to improve the conditions which the men complained of. He would give some instances. The men who were chafing at the £250 barrier for some time prior to Union made complaints in regard to their chances of promotion. In those cases the Government reduced the waiting period in order to get them on the relief scale so that these men, after having served three years at the barrier, were at once allowed to go on to the relief scale rising to £300 per annum. The maximum salary of the general body is £250 in the Cape Province, and in the Transvaal £250 plus local allowance. A man in Cape Town on the maximum of the scale got £250, and a man in Johannesburg got £302 10s. They reduced the waiting period from five to three years in the case of pre-Union officers and gave credit to the men for the time they had been serving at various barriers before Union. The result was that a large number of these men went on the relief scale immediately. They also improved the position of the juniors. Some of the juniors who had been in the Service before Union were relatively in a worse position than juniors who had joined after Union. They gave these men special increments. Then they also increased the allowances in connection with the Travelling Post Office. They took steps to give officers access to their official records, and in other cases met the wishes of the staff.

The net result of the concessions which they made to the officers in question involved the department in £16,000 a year increased salaries, not £7,000, as the hon. member had stated.

pointed out that he had taken the figures given in the report.

said that there was a mistake in the report with regard to the figures. He went on to say that in certain other cases men alleged that the legal rights secured to them under the Act of Union had been infringed. Explanations were given at the time they waited on him and afterwards in writing. The reply satisfied them that their rights had not in any way been infringed by the action the Government had taken. As far as he was aware, the men, who were under a misapprehension, were now satisfied upon that point. No man in the service was drawing less to-day than he drew prior to Union. On the contrary, the position of the postal service had been considerably improved, substantial increases had been made to salaries, and men who were on a certain scale which had a higher maximum than the scale at which they were graded after Union had been allowed to go to the maximum of their scale. They found men doing work with a maximum salary in the Cape Province at £250. They found in Natal men doing the same work with a maximum of £330, and in Johannesburg a few men doing the same kind of work received as much as £450, while in the Orange Free State the scale was much lower than in the other Provinces. Then some 25 other grievances or suggestions were made, and all these were dealt with. There were such matters as appointments of executive officers to the engineering branch. He wanted to reassure the hon. member for Queen’s Town about this matter. The men in the general body who took steps to qualify themselves for engineering posts were always considered when promotions were being made. Promotions were made from the executive body of men who were qualified for the traffic, commercial and stores as well as the engineering branches. They had also taken steps to encourage postmen and telegraph boys to qualify themselves for better positions in the Service. They had also had a number of grievances dealing with the Public Service as a whole, which had to be approached in the interests of the public service and not only of the postal service. One was the alleged inadequacy of the local allowance. Now it was admitted that in some parts of the Cape Province where no local allowance was made the cost of living was as high almost as in some parts where a local allowance was made. The same thing applied to other Provinces, but the whole matter was being inquired into by the Public Service Commission, and he was hoping that as a result of inquiries an equitable scheme would be introduced and that they would have less complaints in future.

They had had the question of the building of houses for Civil Servants as a whole. It had been pointed out that many men in the service had to stay in hotels, and the request was made that houses should be built. The same request came from different branches of the service—from magistrates’ clerks and so on. It was a problem involving great expenditure, and the Government must at present go slowly in the matter. Then they had hack a request for the payment of hospital expenses at Kimberley. They were also told that leave allowances were inadequate, and that Government servants ought to get medical attendance at cheaper rates. Those were some of the grievances which were brought to his notice, and which affected the public service as a whole and not referring to the Post Office in particular. They had dealt with 51 of those grievances as well as they could. There was no doubt that a number of very important demands made by those men could not be complied with, but instead of evading them and “dodging” the staff, as had been alleged, a plain reply was given. There were matters on which the Government was still being asked to grant relief. It had been claimed by some of the postal officials of the Cape that they should go to a maximum of £320 per annum uninterrupted. It had been decided by the old Cape Government that £250 was the maximum value of the work of the general body of postal employees in the Cape. A number of men were engaged in England to come out to the Cape, and they alleged that it had been represented to them that they would eventually be entitled to go up to the £320 per annum. That matter had been investigated by a Commission in 1905, and the claim of those men was not substantiated. The position the present Government had taken up was the position taken up by the old Cape Government—that there was no contract, and that those men could not go beyond £250 unless vacancies occurred. That was still a grievance of some of the men who were engaged in England some years ago. Another grievance was with regard to Transvaal ex-sorters. Those men had originally been put on a scale rising to £300. In 1908 the Government reduced the maximum to £260, and the men now claimed that the Government of that day promised to put them on a scale rising to £350. He (the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs) found that no promise had been given. The position of those men was this: The maximum salary when they came into Union was £260. Now they were on a scale of £250, independent of which they got a local allowance of £52 10s., so that an ex-sorter was now being paid £2 10s. per annum more than the maximum prior to 1908, and after three years at the maximum they would go on the relief scale rising to £300 plus local allowance. Instead of those men being worse off, they were better off. The position of those men had been substantially improved as the result of Union. The Natal Government had been extremely generous to its postal and telegraph clerks. In 1901, in order to keep the members of the Natal Civil Service, of which the postal service was part, from being attracted by the higher salaries in the Transvaal, they allowed them to go without interruption up to £450 per annum. They had had men doing the ordinary work of sorting letters and receiving and despatching telegrams drawing salaries up to £450. The Natal Government—like other Governments—had to pass through a period of financial depression, and it took upon itself the responsibility of reducing the maximum salary, so that none of the men would be entitled to go beyond £300 per annum. After three years had elapsed at £300 they could receive £330. Their grievance to-day was that they were not allowed to go to the maximum of £450— the maximum prior to 1906. The matter in Natal was very complicated—it was more complicated than in any other part of the Union. The Natal Government had engaged a number of officers in England with a maximum salary of £400 per annum, and that maximum had not been reduced. The Government had taken advice on the matter, and was informed that those men had a definite contract binding on the Government. The result was that the maximum of some of the staff was reduced, but not of others. As a Natal man he was exceedingly sorry that that inequality should exist, and he would like to level everyone up to £450 if funds were available, but they had the taxpayer to remember. He thought he had shown the House the nature of the grievances that still existed, and how difficult it would be to bring the whole of the telegraph and postal service into line, because of the different conditions under which they had been working prior to Union.

Continuing, he said that wherever possible they would improve the position of members in the service, because in the post office they had a splendid body of efficient, hard-working men, who deserved well of the State. Dealing with the Pretoria interview, the Minister said that those grievances which were not put to him verbally were put in writing, and some were put both ways. He then dealt with other grievances that had not been redressed. They asked for increased salaries for first-class assistants. The Minister pointed out that the present salary went to a maximum of £340, plus local allowance in the Transvaal and up-country. The Government decline to increase this amount. They asked that overtime should be paid on a daily basis. The Minister explained that overtime was paid on a weekly basis, because overtime was worked as the need arose. It was quite true that on mail days in Johannesburg men worked up to 13 hours, but they only worked three hours the day before or the day after. If a man worked longer than 42 hours in the week he got overtime at the rate of time and a quarter and the Minister pointed out that clerks in the public service got no overtime. Then some officers in charge of small offices objected to being called first-class assistants. They wanted to be called Postmasters. The Minister said that he told them they could be called Postmasters, but for classification purposes they would have to be called assistants. Then they asked that there should be no differentiation of pay between administrative officers and executive officers. The Minister pointed out that administrative officers were recruited on a higher educational basis, and in all services they got higher pay. Then they asked for free medical advice for the suburban postmen in the Cape Peninsula, which could not be given. They also asked for a uniform length of duty, but the Minister explained that that was impossible. The fact was that if the Government gave way and redressed all these grievances it would not require £16,000 per annum, but more like £160,000 per annum to cover the extra amount. The point was what was a fair salary to pay the general body of the men, and while the remuneration was not princely, he thought it was fair and reasonable, and it could be easily defended by the Government. The position of the Cape men had been materially improved since Union. During the time of the hon. member for Port Elizabeth the maximum salary was £250, but since Union they had given relief scale, and a man had only to serve three years at the maximum in order to go on by increments to £300. To the Public Service Commission he put the question as to how the salaries of postal officials compared with the salaries of men in other branches of the service, and the Commission pointed out that whereas the railwayman reached a maximum of £240 only, after two waits at £180 and £210 of three years each, postal officials proceeded without any interruption to £250, and if they did not secure promotion after five years, recently reduced to three years in the case of pre-Union officers, they went on the relief scale. The Commission considered that the comparison was not in favour of the railway staff, and that the scale of pay was adequate. He (the Minister) made further inquiries in Pretoria and Johannesburg, and he asked large employers of labour to furnish him with confidential information on the subject. He asked for the average salary paid to their employees and clerks of 18, 30, and 40 years engaged on ordinary routine work, exclusive of those who were doing more responsible duty. One firm stated that it did not pay youths of 18 as much as £13, which was the amount a post office youth of 18 drew in Johannesburg at that age. The head of this firm said that the usual amount was about £10. Competent assistants received from £18 to £25, and men in charge of departments got more. The head of one of the banks in Pretoria stated that the youth of 18 got from £3 to £5 per month.

In the Post Office in Johannesburg and Pretoria they paid to a clerk of 25 years £19 8s. 4d., which was rather more than the same man would get doing routine work in a bank. The salaries of clerks about 30 years of age in a Pretoria or Johannesburg bank averaged from £250 to £275, while in the Post Office they paid £24 5s. a month, equal to £291 per annum, to a man of 50. He had received a letter from a gentleman who had made some inquiries into the salaries paid by a number of the business houses in Johannesburg to members of their staff doing ordinary clerical work, which showed that the average monthly salary paid to a clerk of 18 years of age was £10 to £15. The Post Office paid £13. The average salary paid by business houses to a clerk of 25 years of age was £17 10s to £22 10s., while the Post Office paid £19 8s. 4d. To a clerk of 30 years of age the average salary paid by business houses was £22 10s. to £30 a month. The Post Office paid £24 5s. This gentleman went on to say that as a matter of fact from 25 years of age a clerk doing ordinary work would not necessarily expect an increase. In the Post Office in Johannesburg or Pretoria they paid more to a man or 41 than they paid to a man of 30. A man of 41 would receive £30 per month assuming, as had been done in the other cases, that he had worked his way up from the bottom. He could absolutely depend on getting that salary if he did his duty, and no man in outside employment had this good prospect. Besides, the postal clerk, if he had more than average ability, had higher posts within his grasp. He (the Minister) had confined his comparison with salaries paid in the Transvaal than in the Cape, because the mover of the motion mentioned Transvaal grievances. The position, therefore, so far as salaries were concerned, was that, on the whole, the Post Office was paying slightly higher salaries than the business firms in the Transvaal were paying to men engaged in ordinary routine work, but, in addition to this, they had to remember that men in the Post Office had privileges, pension rights and so forth which outside men had not got. (Hear, hear.) One special benefit was that they had security of employment. (Hear, hear.) If a man behaved himself and did his work, even though he might not be very bright, he went on getting his annual increments until he got to his maximum. While he was dealing with the amount of salaries he would like hon. members to know how the salaries of the Transvaal compared with the salaries of the Cape. A youth at 18 at the Cape got £120 per annum, and in Johannesburg £136 per annum. Assuming that he had gone into the Post Office in his youth, at 31 he got £250 at the Cape and in Johannesburg £302, while at 41 he got £300 at the Cape and £360 in Johannesburg and Pretoria. The work, of course, was arduous, it was very hard work, work requiring training, accuracy and despatch, and a high degree of intelligence, but it was not the most important work of a critical and administrative nature that other Public Servants were called upon to perform, and he submitted to the House that the salaries they were paying were reasonable salaries and sufficient for the work which the general body of the postal and telegraph clerks were performing.

It had been said that promotion was extremely slow and that these men had nothing to look forward to. The fact of the matter was that promotion was slower in the Post Office than in some of the departments, but it was impossible to promote men to positions which were not vacant, and it was impossible to simply create well paid posts in order to give promotion. The fact was that 19 per cent. of the men who were in the general body of the service and who were eligible for promotion at the time of Union had received promotion, or would do so in the near future. The fact was sometimes lost sight of that, apart from the relief scale, for every five posts in the general body there was one post with a higher salary to which these men were eligible for promotion. The hon. member had referred to a circular which had been sent by the Postal and Telegraph Clerks’ Association to every member in this House. He wanted to refer to one or two statements in that circular, because it was a most misleading document and, instead of answering the reply which he gave to the Postal and Telegraph Clerks’ Association some time ago, it evaded the points altogether and made some statements which could not be supported by the facts. The Minister referred to several of the statements in the circular and subjected them to criticism. In particular he said that there was no truth in the suggestion made in that pamphlet that the Postmaster-General and the Minister did not personally consider complaints of the staff. Each case was carefully considered personally by the Postmaster-General or himself, as the case might be The document referred to, he continued, was issued by a man who was an agitator, and whose position depended upon the keeping alive of disatisfaction in the service. (Government cheers.)

That is not the document I quoted.

said they had men in the service who were still trying to stir up strife. He had in his possession a post-card issued by the general organising secretary of the Postal and Telegraph Association in which a number of questions were asked such as: “What are you doing? What about your position? What about your salary? What about your overtime? Are you quite awake? (Loud laughter.) Are you doing your duty? (Ironical cheers.) You know you have your grievances, and it’s no use grumbling, but you know your remedy.” (Loud cheers from the cross-benches.) He (the Minister) thought it was a regrettable state of affairs that such pernicious post-cards should be distributed throughout the service. He did not, however, blame the whole service because of the vapourings of a few agitators. The majority of the staff did not support such extreme methods or allow themselves to be led astray. Referring to the improved conditions in the service, he wished to show what had been done in that respect. Men who could not go beyond £250 could now rise to £300. In the Free State men at a barrier of £165 had now been put on a scale running up to £250. In the Transvaal men who stopped at £260 could now rise to £360. (Cries of “Vote, vote,” and “You’ve told us that before,” proceeded from the cross benches.) Proceeding, the Minister replied that his department had been attacked, and it was his duty to defend it. With regard to the Commission of Inquiry, there was no necessity for a Commission as the work of such a body had been anticipated. He had volumes of facts he could produce that made a request for further information to be taken useless.

It being five minutes to six o’clock p.m., Mr. SPEAKER stated that in accordance with the Sessional Order adopted on the 19th May, he would now adjourn the debate.

The debate was adjourned until to-morrow.

The House suspended business at 6 p.m.

in moving the second reading of the Cooperative Agricultural Societies (Transvaal and O.F.S) Amendment Bill, said that the measures aimed at bringing about certain amendments in the existing Acts of the Transvaal and Free State. The intention was to enable farmers in the Free State to join societies in the Transvaal, and vice versa. Another object of the Bill was to enable co-operative societies to arrange overdrafts with ordinary banks. Furthermore the Bill aimed at altering the quorum of the societies from one-fifth to one-tenth of the total number of members, as it had been found very difficult to get one-fifth of the members together. Another provision of the Bill dealt with the voting at meetings on the questions of loans, and it was proposed to alter the existing provisions so as to bring the cooperative societies into line with the Land Bank Act. As the law now stood a society, before it can raise a loan or alter its regulations, had to obtain the approval of two-thirds of all its members. This had sometimes been found impossible. It was therefore proposed in the Bill that instead of the sanction of two-thirds of all the members, that of two-thirds of the members present at a duly convened meeting would be necessary. The Bill further proposed to repeal certain clauses in the Free State and Transvaal laws, which conflicted with this proposal. The Government had intended to introduce a consolidated Act this session, but owing to lack of time he had thought it best to confine the Bill to the urgent matters dealt with.

said that that was the second time that that Co-operative Societies’ Bill in the Transvaal had been altered. The alteration had always been in the same direction —a weakening of the control of members over the directors. That had been the effect in 1909, and that would be the effect in the present Bill. That Bill proposed three changes in the law, and not only in the Transvaal, but in the Orange Free State, which was drawn up on almost identical lines as the law in the Transvaal. He did take strong exception to the proposal contained in the last two sections, which substituted for a quorum being a fifth, it being one-tenth of the members. He did not know if hon. members had gone into the matter. The societies should be cooperative societies, and members should work for the good of the societies. The danger of that alteration was that a member of any society was liable to the last penny for the liabilities created by that society, as the section stated, “jointly and severally liable.” The hon. member read section 17 of the Transvaal Act, and proceeding, said that section 19 was more dangerous still. There must be the approval of two-thirds of the members of the society. Societies at present had liabilities running into five figures. They rightly demanded that before a loan of any kind could be assented to, two-thirds of the members of the society should agree. He thought that was a very reasonable provision. But what did the Minister of Finance propose in that Bill? Not two-thirds of the members of the society, but two-thirds of the members present at the meeting. That was a very different story indeed. They might have a very small meeting indeed. It might conceivably agree to a loan of £20,000 or more, and the members not present would be pledged for the security of the loan. Was that satisfactory? He contended that the Minister of Finance had no right to give power to two-thirds of the members at the meeting. They must remember that the control which was supposed to be exercised over those societies was worth nothing. There was practically no control. No less than five of them had already gone into liquidation. They must pause before they so easily pledged the assets of the members as it was proposed to do under that Bill.

said he could not allow the remarks of the hon. member who had just spoken to pass without some comment, because those opinions were wrongly conceived, and the other side of the question should be heard. There were two alterations which the hon. member took exception to, the first with reference to the quorum of a meeting reduced from one-fifth to one-tenth of the members. It was significant that the Transvaal Act, which allowed for a quorum of one-fifth of the members, proceeded to add, “provided that a quorum shall in no case consist of less than five members,” showing with what small anticipations those enormous organisations started in the Transvaal. What was the position to-day? The country was covered by enormous societies with large numbers of members. It was an impossibility to get a meeting attended by one-fifth of the total membership of a society. If that provision remained it would leave those co-operative societies, which had done a lot for the economic regeneration of the Transvaal, at a standstill. That suggested arrangement was a necessary one. They could not let that provision stand that a quorum of a society should consist of at least one-fifth of its members, for they could not possibly get the members together. The next thing the hon. member took exception to was section 19: “that loans could be authorised by two-thirds of the members of the society.” The societies said it was quite impossible for them to get two-thirds of the members to vote for any loan, and therefore if that provision was to remain they were going to come to a standstill. The suggested provision was one on which they were acting on the advice of the Transvaal, where it had been adopted two years ago.

What is the good of altering the law now then?

said his hon. friend was always so impatient. That was a provision which they inserted in the Land Bank Act of 1912. In section 28, sub-section 22, it stated that anything to the contrary, notwithstanding in any law governing co-operative societies, any such society may apply for such an advance when authorised by the resolution passed by a two-thirds majority of the members of the society present at the meeting duly convened. That was in cases where a cooperative society came to the, Land Bank for a loan. In the Land Bank Act they dealt with the question of loans to be raised from the Land Bank by cooperative societies, and therefore incidentally they had dealt with that difficulty which they were considering at the present time. Therefore they said that if the co-operative societies were to borrow from the Land Bank, two-thirds of the majority of the members present at any meeting would be sufficient.

But there remained several other difficulties. The society might borrow from any other bank, and then difficulties would arise. The lawyers made difficulties, too, on the interpretation of that clause. The interpretation was that the Co-operative Act of the Transvaal fixed the majority on one basis, and under the Land Bank Act later it was fixed on a different basis. When the societies came to take legal advice the eminent lawyers of the Transvaal gave different opinions. Hon. members would agree that it was very necessary in a question like that, dealing with finance, there should be no doubt whatever. What his hon. friend was asking now was that the clause which was inserted in the Land Bank Act two years ago should be inserted in the Co-operative Society Act so that there would be no doubt whatever in the matter. They were simply adopting in the Co-operative Law a provision which they adopted two years ago in the Land Bank Act.

said that no doubt there was a good deal of force in the arguments of the Minister of Finance, but to his mind those societies were allowed to go too far. They ought not to be allowed to go beyond the needs of the immediate moment. To do otherwise would be going beyond the spheres of co-operative societies and becoming trading concerns. He pointed out that the Potchefstroom Society lost in one year £25,000. How could they have lost that if they had not been buying and selling? With regard to the advances of the Land Bank to some of those societies he said that one could quite understand with those societies doing the proper work of a co-operative society they should have advances in order to enable them to lend money to members until their produce had been marketed. But there was no need for those societies to have a permanent overdraft at the Land Bank. That meant that they were either accumulating large stocks which they were holding for a rise or that they were speculating. The minimum amount of these overdrafts in one year amounted to thousands of pounds in several cases. During the year 1913 the Bethal Society’s overdraft with the Land Bank was never below £43,000, and the Land Bank was not the only institution which lent money to those societies. The minimum amount of overdraft during the year of the Lichtenburg Society was never less than £24,000, and the Middelburg Society no lower than £23,000 during the year. A most serious danger was threatening the whole co-operative movement in that respect; if they were going to have money handed to them so easily they would run into speculation. The management might get into the hands of a few men with the speculating mania. The Minister of Finance had said that under the Land Bank Act provision was made so that a society could get a loan on resolution of two-thirds of the members present at the meeting. It might be that there was a reason for that which did not, however apply to advances from private institutions. The Land Bank exercised a sort of unofficial control over co-operative societies. It was a State institution, and might refuse applications if they found them supported by only a small fraction of the members.

They might have a society consisting of 1,000 members, and three of them could pledge the whole of the society’s property. Section 19 stated that notwithstanding anything contained in section 17, no loan could be raised exceeding £1,000 unless it had been approved by two-thirds of the members present.

You cannot have a meeting unless there is a quorum.

It is open to that construction. But even so, I don’t see that the Minister is justified in proposing to reduce the quorum from one-fifth to one tenth of the members. Continuing, Mr. Duncan said that the best thing to do would be to have small societies. (Hear, hear.) Only when they had societies’ small enough and keen enough to look after their own business would they be successful. At present they were suffering from a want of management and too many overdrafts. These societies had done an enormous amount of good in the Transvaal especially, but if they were allowed to speculate they would give co-operation a bad name. (Hear, hear.)

urged the Minister to attempt to make the Bill apply to the Cape as well, or otherwise at least to Bechuanaland. There was no doubt that co-operative societies had done a considerable amount of good. In Bechuanaland the people had seen the good done by the societies in Lichtenburg, and they realised the necessity of the co-operative law also applying to their district.

When the mealies were reaped they were usually cheap, and the shopkeeper then took advantage of that fact, to the great injury of the farmer. The farmer would be able to get an advance from the cooperative society, and then a better price for his mealies.

hoped that the suggestion of his hon. friend (Mr. Wessels) would not be adopted so far as the farmers of the Cape were concerned, and he said that in the interests of the farmers of Bechuanaland. He did not think anyone would accuse him of not always being sympathetic towards the cooperative movement. He hoped the farmers of this country would realise that the success of co-operation was not due to the fact that they were gaily going to pile up monetary burdens round their necks, but were going to work together for the marketing of their produce. (Hear, hear.) There was no country in the world, except Denmark, where co-operation had been so successful as in Ireland, and the movement there was only successful when the people themselves were interested in it. (Hear, hear.) In Ireland members of co-operative societies took such a deep interest in their society’s affairs that they practically met every week for the purpose of discussing its business. He recognised, of course, that that could not be done in South Africa, but the Minister in his Bill introduced the great danger of allowing people to have their goods pledged for loans by a few members of the society without the majority knowing anything about it.

They will be ruined.

said the great bugbear of the farmers was the obtaining of facilities to borrow money on too easy terms. He was speaking in the interest of farmers and of true cooperation. They had heard of a co-operative society in the Transvaal that wanted to borrow £110,000. A very substantial farmer was very often prevented by his business from taking part in co-operative societies. If they wanted to make a success of co-operation in this country they could only do it by mutual trust, and not by law. (Cheers.)

said the Leader of the Opposition was really trying to scare the House too much. For years they had now gone in for this co-operative movement, and they had seen excellent results. As a rule the leading farmers were placed at the head of affairs. Of course there were people who were always anxious to break up this co-operative movement, and he knew that great trouble had been taken by certain sections to undo the societies. No doubt the system had proved to be a failure at the Cape, but in the Transvaal they had gone about the matter in a different way, and with a few exceptions, these societies which had been established, were still in existence. This Bill, however, was in the interests of the farming population. At the same time he agreed that it would be disastrous for co-operative societies to borrow money for speculative purposes. The Prime Minister went on to refer to the impossibility of getting one-fifth of the members of a large co-operative society together at a meeting. Take the society at Potchefstroom, for instance, which had a membership of 1,600 persons. How could they get two-thirds of them to meet in order to sanction a loan? The members lived so far apart that it was impossible. There was no intention to allow cooperative societies to borrow money for speculative purposes, but to enable them to make advances on the products. Sometimes losses would be suffered, but that might happen anywhere. He thought after the experience of the Transvaal that the provisions of the Bill would prove extremely useful. The people placed at the head of affairs were mostly influential farmers, and if the Government and Parliament took up a sympathetic attitude he was sure this Bill would prove a great blessing. The Government could go in for a proper system of inspecting the books of the societies, but he held that if the Bill was accepted co-operation would be placed on a much better basis than it was to-day.

said he did not think that the manner in which the Bill had been introduced was fair. They (the Opposition) liked to have the measures put before them in a plain and simple way.

It was because he was in favour of the principle of co-operation that he did not want to see the thing ruined. He did not think that even now the people understood what the proposal of his hon. friend really was This was an entirely new proposal, not only to co-operation but also in any scheme of finance that he had ever heard of. It meant that one fifteenth of the members of a society could commit the property of the whole of the members. It was laid down that one-tenth of the members who were present constituted a quorum, and that two-thirds of that one-tenth constituted a majority, in other words, if the society had 2,300 members, 160 members could commit the security of the whole of the property of those 2,300 members. That was where he thought they were making a mistake in introducing what was essentially a wrong principle. He believed in co-operation, he believed that South Africa had more to hope for from co-operation than from, perhaps, any other general principle of that kind, and he wanted to encourage it in every possible way that he could, but he urged they should not put it on a wrong basis to start with. They should not start with the idea of being able to easily borrow money to speculate with. Under this Bill they were encouraging that. They were giving a small body of men enormous power to borrow an unlimited amount of money. The other principle he thought members had to remember was that in entering these cooperative societies they were virtually becoming members of unlimited liability companies. There were very few of them who would take shares in any unlimited company, and in the world to-day they found very few of these companies. Rich men, well-to-do men, had been ruined over and over again by holding a few shares in an unlimited company because their own liability was unlimited. They did not want to encourage people in this country, especially the farming population, to put themselves into a position where they could be ruined by some disaster over which they had no control. He thought they ought to have the liability limited, and that it should not be left to one-fifteenth of the members of the society to commit the whole of the credit and the property of all the members.

replying on the debate, said he knew that the hon. gentleman who had just spoken took a very keen interest in co-operation. In regard to his comments on the matters brought up in the schedule, he would point out that he had had a consolidating Bill drafted for the whole Union. It was, however, impossible to introduce that Bill this session, and the amendments brought forward in the Bill now before the House were only such as were very urgently required in the Transvaal, where some of the societies had the utmost difficulty in getting sufficient members together for a meeting. He instanced the Lichtenberg society, which had 1,297 members. He admitted that the principle involved in unlimited liability was one that must be looked into. He thought that a great deal of the blame for the position that had arisen was due to the hon. member for Cape Town, Central. They had in the Department of Agriculture a Co-operative Division that was undermanned, and his hon. friend (Mr. Jagger) was one of the members who was strongly in favour of placing the whole of the inspection work under the Land Bank. The Land Bank would simply treat the matter from a financial point of view, and these farmers would not get the advice that they were so much in need of. It was impossible with the two inspectors whom the Department employed to go through the affairs of these various societies. What was wanted: was better supervision. It was the duty of the Government to see that, apart from the Land Bank inspection, these societies got every advice from inspections made by the Department, even if the societies had to pay for the inspection. He quite agreed that co-operative societies—and he believed it was laid down in the Act—ought not to go in for speculation. The present measure was badly wanted in the Transvaal, and he trusted that it would receive the approval of the House. Next year he hoped to bring in a consolidating measure.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a second time.

moved that the House go into Committee on the Bill.

objected.

The Committee stage was accordingly set down for Friday

moved the second reading of the Natal Poll Tax(Further Suspension) Bill, remarking that he did not think the provisions of this Bill required any explanation.

said that it seemed absurd to him that that Bill should be brought in year after year. Why not repeal the Act altogether?

Do you oppose the second reading?

No.

said he agreed with the hon. member who had just spoken. Why did not the Minister bring up a Bill repealing the Natal Poll Tax Act? If the Minister ever proposed to introduce that tax, and he hoped he would not, it should be introduced by an Act of Parliament and not by a mere resolution of the House.

said that if the Minister wanted the tax let him come to the House for it. He thought the Minister would be well advised to come to Parliament in the ordinary course.

also spoke, but was inaudible.

said that that Bill referred to the tax as it came due that year. The hon. member knew that the poll tax in Natal, which was an annual tax, became payable on January 1 each year. They suspended the tax which became payable on January 1. The hon. member had raised the question why it was an annual suspension, but the hon. member forgot what had taken place when the suspension had taken place the first time. The tax was part of the native taxation of South Africa, and was not only imposed on the white people. His predecessor in office (Mr. Hull) had explained at that time why it was an annual suspension, and that it was to keep that system theoretically alive, until the day came, which was not far distant, when they would readjust the whole system of native taxation. If that tax was finally repealed they would drop part of the native taxation in Natal. He saw no reason why they should alter the system now, when for two years they had suspended the tax.

said he could not see the use of these theoretical taxes. He feared the difficulty of this tax would be the same as that experienced with regard to the Indian tax. Why not repeal the whole tax now? he asked.

was understood to say that until real uniformity was brought, about in regard to the native taxes it had been considered essential to suspend the tax. The natives in Natal paid £1 14s. 6d. per head. That included the poll tax of £1, which was also paid by whites. The tax could not be abolished on account of the whites only without also being abolished for the natives. It was better, therefore, to maintain the present procedure till all native taxes had been regulated.

referred to the condition of affairs in the Free State, and regretted that the motion which he had introduced some time ago had not been accepted. He regretted that no attempt had been made so far to bring about uniformity in the native poll tax. The time had come when this matter should be dealt with, as otherwise the matter would get more and more complicated. In Transvaal natives paid £2 each, most of them in the Free State paid nearly £2, whilst in Natal the annual poll tax was £1, also levied on natives, and even that was to be suspended. The Natal native, therefore, paid less than other natives.

said he understood from hon. members who came from Natal that that tax was to be paid by white men as well as natives. What the Minister was proposing was a dangerous precedent, because by a single resolution of the House all the arrears might be made payable, and that was a serious matter, not only for the natives, but for the whites as well. The hon. member pointed out that there was a difference between the Acts passed during the last three years and the present Bill. Last year’s Act had been only applicable to the tax which became due on January 1, 1913. But the effect of the present Bill was that the tax would be cumulative against both whites and coloured persons. He would ask the Minister to remit the tax, and then it could not possibly be cumulative, and no harm would be done.

also urged the necessity of uniformity of native taxation being brought about, and hoped a Bill to that effect would be introduced next session.

said that some of the hon. members seemed to think that it was a tax chiefly levied on the natives, but it was chiefly levied on the white people. It was not, as in the case of the white people, levied on every male native over 18 years of age, but only on those over that age who did not pay a hut tax. It was to catch the native males who did not pay the hut tax that it was imposed on the natives, but in a far larger proportion it was a tax which pressed on the white people. He thought it might well be repealed altogether.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a second time, and the Committee stage set down for to-morrow.

moved the second reading of the Unauthorised Expenditure Bill, which he said was a formal measure to legalise the unauthorised expenditure. It had been audited by the Public Accounts Committee.

The motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a second time.

moved that the Committee stage be taken forthwith.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that clause one stand over until the schedule had been considered.

The motion was agreed to.

on the schedule, said that that was the first Opportunity he had of asking an explanation from the Prime Minister, as Minister of Native Affairs, with regard to a question put to him some time ago, as to whether it was a fact that certain natives recruited from tropical territories had been working at Hlobane Collieries? At the time the Prime Minister asked to be allowed a fortnight in which to give the information, and at the conclusion of that fortnight informed him (the speaker) that in December last, with the full sanction of the Government, 40 natives had been employed at Hlobane Colliery. Seeing that in December last those natives were employed there with the full sanction of the Government, why was there the necessity of a fortnight’s delay in answering the question put to the Prime Minister in the first instance. That did not convey the impression of dealing candidly with the House, as hon. members expected. Then there was another point. The Prime Minister said those natives were not recruited from north of latitude 22, but they had come down of their own accord. Could any hon. member of that House accept that as a frank and candid statement? Did the Prime Minister himself really believe that those natives really came of their own initiative?

rose to a point of order, and pointed out that any matter arising out of native expenditure would be alluded to in connection with the report of the Auditor-General regarding expenditure on Native Affairs which related to subsidies to chiefs and headmen. If they were to be allowed general discussion outside of particular items he did not know where they would get to.

submitted that at that late stage of the session, when they had not considered more than one vote in the Estimates, there was a very shrewd suspicion amongst the members of the House that there would be scanty opportunity for challenging matters. Their opportunities would be abridged to the narrowest limits. He contended that he was in order.

said he was afraid the hon. member would have to confine himself to the item. He would have his opportunity to raise the matter later.

asked if it was not quite reasonable to suppose that it was quite possible that that money might be given to chiefs and headmen for acting as recruiting agents to secure those natives for the colliery? There was another matter arising out of that There was a question of the deputation and interview which took place between the collieries of Natal and the Prime Minister some months ago on that topic, and while he bowed to the ruling of the Chairman he thought it was quite possible that that money had been paid to the chiefs and headmen for services rendered in recruiting those men from the tropical territories.

was understood to say that the hon. member was not in order.

The schedule was agreed to, and the remaining clauses and the short title Were passed without discussion.

The Bill was reported without amendments, and the third reading set down for to-morrow.

moved that the clause be deleted. He said that Government always tried to throw the burden of proof on the accused, which was entirely opposed to the principle of both Roman-Dutch and English law, under which a person was held to be innocent until proved to be guilty. It was most difficult to prove a negative.

said he wished to support his hon. learned and gallant friend. This principle had been brought down from the Transvaal, and was a very bad one.

in supporting the amendment, said it was obviously unjust to put a man to the expense of proving himself innocent. It was the business of the prosecution to prove that the accused person was guilty.

said the clause was quite a usual one in fiscal Bills. He hoped the hon. member for Newlands would not approach the matter as a lawyer only, but also as a citizen. These were matters which were peculiarly within the knowledge of the accused, and he would know better than anyone else to whom he had disposed of his property.

said he wanted to take care of the poor citizen. What was going to happen supposing a manufacturer had his matches stolen from him?

The clause was agreed to.

A verbal amendment to the schedule moved by Mr. Jagger was withdrawn.

The Bill was reported without amendment.

moved that the House go into Committee.

said he wished to point out to the Minister that they had sat until a late hour the previous night. They had got through a great deal of business that evening, and he thought the Minister would consult the interest of the House if he would agree to report progress.

asked if hon. members would assist him to make some headway with that Bill the following day. On that understanding he would agree to report progress. (Laughter.)

The House then went into Committee.

moved that progress be reported.

opposed the motion that progress be reported, and said he did not see why the House should be ruled by members opposite. It appeared to him that some members would like to remain in legislation for the rest of their lives.

said that he had given notice of one or two amendments, and he would like to see them on the Order Paper before the Bill was proceeded with.

said he was anxious to see all the amendments on the Order Paper, and he therefore agreed to the motion to report progress.

said that with regard to the preliminary clauses he thought a certain amount of discussion would be necessary. In his opinion it would be better to go on with the work at once.

said that he was also very tired, but in the discussion of a complicated measure like this it was important to have amendments on the paper. He himself had some amendments which he would like to see on the paper.

The motion to report progress was agreed to.

Progress was reported accordingly, the House to resume in Committee tomorrow.