from inhabitants of Keimoes, for repeal of section “23, subsection (1), of the Land Bank Act, 1912.

from the widow of J. P. Fox, late gatekeeper, South African Railway, for relief.

from M. D. Robinson, New Construction Engineer, South African Railways, for leave to contribute arrears to Pension Fund.

from D. G. Conradie, teacher, Education Department, for condonation of a break in his service.

called attention to an error in the Division List for the “Ayes” in the first division yesterday in Committee of the whole House on the Indemnity and Undesirables Special Deportation Bill (page 193 of Votes), his name not appearing therein, although he so voted.

having called upon the Tellers for the “Ayes,” the List was corrected accordingly.

Return showing the position of the Railway Charitable Fund for the thirteen months ended December 31, 1913.

Report of the Economic Commission, January, 1914. [U.G. 12-'14.]

Papers relative to a proposal to award to the widow of the late Mr. H. H. Elliott, Maintenance Engineer, of the South African Railways and Harbours, a special pension, or alternatively, a gratuity, in recognition of the services of her late husband.

These papers were referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.

Comparative Classified Summary of Ordinary Expenditure from Revenue (Excluding Railways and Harbours), 1904-1905 to 1912-1913, and the Estimated Expenditure for 1913-1914.

Return showing the claims made against the Government for compensation with regard to goods destroyed in the fire at Ndabakazi Station in July, 1911, and further particulars.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether he will lay on the Table of the House all papers relating to the engagement of Mr. Hubert Thompson as vice-president of the School of Agriculture, at Potchefstroom, and, if so, when.

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. The papers will be laid on the Table within the next few days.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether the recommendations contained in paragraphs 45-48 of the fourth report of the Cape Civil Service Commission of 1905, with reference to C. W. Pearsall, M.A., have been carried into effect, and, if not, why not?

The Cape Civil Service Commission of 1905 in its fourth report, inter alia, stated that it was proposed to make certain recommendations in regard to the grading of the Cape service generally, which, if adopted by the Government, would, in the opinion of the Commission, meet Mr. Pearsall’s case as well as that of other officers similarly circumstanced. Otherwise, the Commission suggested that Mr. Pearsall might be offered transfer to another department in which the terms of employment originally offered to graduates in 1902 were being observed. The Commission’s recommendations in regard to grading were not carried out by the Government, and prior to Union it had not been found practicable to arrange a transfer for Mr. Pearsall to another department, although the Post Office was not averse to such transfer. Further points dealt with by the Commission in connection with Mr. Pearsall’s employment were (a) the date from which Pension Fund contributions should be paid, and (b) the question of Mr. Pearsall’s seniority. In regard to (a) no change was made in view of Mr. Pearsall’s decision regarding Pension Fund contributions. His seniority is in no wise affected by the date from which he first paid to the Pension Funds.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries: (1) Whether the return published in the “Government Gazette” of 4th July last, showing 2,330 deaths on the Witwatersrand mines from accidents and disease, for the three months January, February, and March, 1913, included the deaths which occurred outside as well as inside the compounds; if not, what are the total figures, (2) what are the number of deaths on the Witwatersrand of (a) whites, (b) coloured, through: (i) accidents on the mines; (ii) miners’ phthisis; (iii) other diseases contracted while working on the mines, for the quarters ended 30th June, 30th September, and 31st December, 1913, and for the whole year; and (3) what is the mortality rate per thousand, taking only the underground workers on the mines?

said that as a certain amount of work and time was required to prepare an answer, he would ask that the question be allowed to stand over for a week.

asked the Minister of Justice what provision the Government intend to make for the appointment of special justices of the peace for the following towns in the electoral division of Bethlehem, viz., Clarens, Petrus Steyn, and Paul Roux, and when?

Provision is being made for the appointment of a special justice of the peace at Petrus Steyn, in the Lindley district of the Free State. The matter is, however, hung up by the want of police cells. There is no present intention of establishing Special Justice of the Peace Courts at Clarens or at Paul Roux.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he is aware that in the. Cape Province there are station foremen who during the whole year work twelve hours a day without a break, and that for three years and over these men have been unable to obtain leave, and whether he will take steps to give relief in such cases?

My attention has been drawn to the fact that at certain sidings where there is only one official, or where the staff consists of a night and day foreman, the men are required to be on duty for 12 hours, but the work at such places is light and not continuous, and the intervals between trains such as to give the men ample time to make suitable arrangements for getting their meals. The interval frequently ranges from one to three hours, and occasionally more. In no case has a station foreman applied for and been unable to obtain leave for three years and over.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether the Government will make provision during this year for telegraph or telephone connection between the following towns, viz., Clarens with Bethlehem, Paul Roux with Bethlehem, and Petrus Steyn with Lindley ?

asked the hon. member to allow the question to stand over.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) Whether he is aware that on the ballot papers used at the recent election in the electoral division of Bethlehem the Christian names of the two candidates were printed in such small type and were so indistinct that the voters could only with difficulty distinguish between the Christian names of the two candidates, whose surnames were identical, viz., Wessels; and (2) why, seeing three-quarters of the voters are Dutch-speaking, the descriptions of the candidates were only printed in English?

I have inquired into this matter and have ascertained that the Christian names and descriptions of the candidates were printed in type of the same size as that used in the Notes and Proceedings of this House, and I do not think that any exception could be taken to the voting papers on the ground that the identity of each candidate was not clearly established. The surnames were printed in large capitals.

In regard to the second part of the question, I find that the descriptions of the candidates were given in Dutch as well as English—Mr. C. H. Wessels being described as “Landbouwer,” and Mr. J. H. B. Wessels as “Procureur.”

asked the Minister of Defence: Whether his attention has been directed to a statement made by General Wessel Wessels, the Harrismith District Commandant under the Defence Force, to the effect that those who did not join rifle clubs voluntarily would be placed in a separate commando to form the “awkward squad,” and would be sent from one district to another under orders of the Government in time of wapenschouw, and that these men would be in the same commando with Uitlanders, for example Jews not born in the country; and, if so, whether this statement represents the policy of the Government?

The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours if it is the intention of the Government, as reported, to undertake, departmentally, the cartage of goods in Durban, and, if so, why is the system of public competition proposed to be abandoned

It is intended by the Administration to undertake departmentally the cartage work at Durban on the expiration of the existing contract in June next. The change is being made in the public interests, as it is considered greater satisfaction can be given and better results obtained under departmental working.

asked the Minister of Finance: Whether he is aware that on farms situated in the Transvaal, and belonging to persons resident in one of the other Provinces, a double quitrent is charged because the owners are non-resident in the Transvaal; and, if so, whether the Minister will remedy this state of affairs?

I am aware of the anomaly to which the hon. member alludes. Proposals for remedying this state of affairs will be submitted to Parliament on the first convenient opportunity.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether he will instruct the Postmasters at Johannesburg and Pretoria to furnish immediately a report, to be laid on the Table of the House, showing: (1) What instructions, if any, were received by them or their subordinates during January from Control Officers or Censorship Officials with regard to (a) the receipt or despatch of oversea cablegrams, and (b) the opening or delaying of letters passing through the post offices respectively in their charge; and (2) a list of cables and letters which were refused, delayed, or otherwise interfered with in passage through their offices?

(1) The Controller of Telegraphs, Johannesburg, and the Postmaster, Pretoria, were, in common with other officers in charge of telegraph offices, given instructions, in terms of the Martial Law Regulations, relative to the transmission of telegraphic or telephonic communications. In addition, the Controller of Telegraphs, Johannesburg, received the following notification:

Office of Control Area, No. 1,

Marshall-square Police Station,

Johannesburg, 17th January, 1914.

The Controller, Posts and Telegraphs, Johannesburg.

The bearer, Major R. S. Godley, is the officer detailed by Colonel Truter to act as Censor under Martial Law. Kindly arrange that he has every facility for censoring all telegrams and cablegrams that pass through for transmission.

(Sgd.) J. T. COLLYER, Major,

Staff Officer.

(2) No list has been kept of cablegrams or telegrams which were refused, stopped, or delayed. No instructions whatsoever in regard to opening or delaying of letters passing through Johannesburg or Pretoria were issued either by the department or the Control Officers, and no letters have been opened or delayed.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries: (1) What are the views of the Government as to the success or otherwise of single shift and electric blasting on the Meyer and Charlton Mine in connection with the abolition of fine dust and the prevention of miners’ phthisis; and (2) whether the Government intend to take steps, and, if so, what steps, to secure the extension of this system ?

(1) With reference to the electric-blasting experiments on the Meyer and Charlton Mine, there is little doubt that, where the conditions are suitable for this class of blasting, the effect, in so far as it tends to keep miners out of the dust produced by blasting operations, is efficacious. The question, however, of the general application of this system of blasting is somewhat difficult, and must depend on circumstances connected with the underground condition of various mines. The whole matter is being investigated at the present moment by the Phthisis Prevention Committee, which is not yet in a position to express definite views on the subject. As regards single shift, a number of mines have already adopted this system, and many others have only a small number of men working underground at night. Mines are generally adopting the system, as far as their conditions permit, but it is evident that in some mines, owing to the lay-out of the mine, or the shaft and haulage equipment or other causes, the single-shift system is a more difficult problem than in others. (2) Pending the report on the completed investigations of the Phthisis Prevention Committee on electric blasting, the Government does not propose to take any action to secure the extension of the system.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) How many sorters were in the service of the Transvaal Posts prior to the regrading of the staff in 1908; (2) what was the scale of pay for sorters; (3) on regrading taking place, how many of those sorters were made second and third-class assistants respectively; (4) what are the scales of pay for second and third-class assistants; and (5) have any complaints been at any time received from sorters who were classified as third-class assistants at a reduced scale of pay, and, if so, what steps, if any, have been taken to remedy the grievance ?

(1) 41. (2) £200 per annum, rising by £12 annually to £300 per annum. (3) On regrading taking place in the Transvaal in 1908: (a) 2 were graded as second grade clerks, 13 were graded as second grade assistants, (b) 26 were graded as third grade assistants. (4) The Transvaal scales of pay were, for second grade clerks, £260 × 20 × £340; second grade assistants, £275 × 15 × £350; third grade assistants, £160 × 12½ × £260. (5) complaints have been received from sorters graded in 1908 as third grade assistants, but their grievance being one connected with pre-Union scales of pay, it has not been found possible to accede to their request under Union reorganisation.

asked the Minister of Justice whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a statement, showing the total number of persons who have been deported under the Immigrants’ Regulation Act of 1913, and the reasons for such deportations?

Steps are being taken for the preparation of such a return.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What is the average loss per ton to the Administration on the carriage of coal at present rates from the Transvaal to Cape Town for bunkering and shipping purposes; and (2) what is the loss per ton to the Administration on coal handled at Cape Town Docks for shipping and bunkering purposes at present charges:

(1) The question whether loss is incurred or not under circumstances such as those which obtain in the present case is often difficult to determine, but in the opinion of the Administration it does not lose by carrying coal from the Transvaal to Cape Town at existing rates, i.e., the extra expenditure incurred in working this traffic is more than met by the increased revenue. (2) The abnormal conditions which have obtained since the introduction of the revised tariff in January last and the short period during which it has been in operation render impracticable the preparation of figures which would give a fair reflection on the effect of the change; but it is anticipated that the increased charges now in force, which were designed to make good the deficiency resulting from the former tariff, will be ample to balance revenue and expenditure, especially bearing in mind that the additional tonnage of coal arriving by rail for bunkering purposes will tend to reduce the cost of handling by reason of the lesser amount of work involved in dealing with overland coal compared with coal arriving by sea.

asked the Minister of the Interior how many applications for naturalisation have been received, how many have been refused, and how many have been granted by the Government from the date of Union up to 31st December, 1913?

Steps are being taken to obtain the particulars desired by the hon. member.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) When the first outbreak of East Coast fever was discovered in the Elliot district; (2) how many outbreaks have there been since; (3) how many farms are at present infected; and (4) when did the last outbreak occur?

(1) East Coast fever was first discovered in Elliot district on erf No. 11, Gubenxa Commonage, on 30th October, 1913. 12) There have been three outbreaks since, namely, at Arasaig Onrust, Boschjes Punt, and Peninsula. (3) The above-mentioned farms are at present infected with East Coast fever, and the undermentioned farms, owing to their close proximity to the infected areas, are under quarantine for East Coast fever purposes. Gubenxa Outbreak.—Erf No. 10 and portion of commonage, Upper Gubenxa. That portion of Mooiplaats No. 70, known as Morgenzon. That portion of Mooiplaats No. 70, known as Mooiplaats. Zaagkuil Drift No. 518. Arasaig-Onrust Outbreak.—Uitwoon, Gierigaard Kasteel, Kwaaiplaats. Boschjes Punt Outbreak.—Teeboom. Peninsula Outbreak.—Balard, Keppoch, Keillas, Lagg. Canna, Gelukfontein, Boschjeskoop, Spitz-kop, part of Conachan. (4) The last outbreak occurred at Peninsula on 9th February, 1914.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether in view of the fact that the travelling public are greatly inconvenienced by the absence of a platform at the railway station at Parys, Orange Free State, and seeing also that it was promised last year, he will consider the desirability of having a platform built there?

A platform has been erected at Parys. The work was completed on 30th June last.

asked the Minister of Finance whether it is a fact that the funds at the disposal of the Land and Agricultural Bank are exhausted, and, if so, whether the Government proposes to make further financial provision for that bank during the present session?

It is a fact that the sum of £800,000 granted to the Land Bank in the Loan Appropriation Act of last year has proved insufficient to meet the unexpectedly heavy demands upon the bank's resources during the current financial year. The Government, accordingly proposes to ask Parliament to make a further grant to the bank in the Additional Estimates, 1913-14.

asked the Minister of Defence whether the Government originally intended to deport Mr. Kendall with the other nine deportees?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: Whether he is aware that great dissatisfaction exists in the Pretoria district, because when the senior scab-inspector was recently transferred from Pretoria, a scab-inspector from another district was appointed in his place, instead of the vacancy being filled by the appointment of one of the Field-cornets of the Pretoria district who was qualified for the post; and, if so, whether he intends to take steps to remove this dissatisfaction?

Representations in the matter have not been made to me, but I will inquire into the question.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether the Railway Administration is prepared to grant facilities to railway employees working up the line who are registered in the Liesbeek division to register their votes at the forthcoming election for that division?

The Administration is not prepared to grant facilities beyond those for which clauses 347 to 349 of the Staff Regulations already provide. No extension of these facilities has been granted in the case of other elections which have taken place since the introduction of the new regulations.

asked the Prime Minister: Whether in view of the grave dissatisfaction at present existing in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, and in view of only four out of 109 grievances submitted to the Minister during August and September last being, referred to the Public Service Commission, the Government will at once appoint an impartial Commission of inquiry to deal with the grievances?

Representatives from the several Provinces of the Union were invited by me to come to Pretoria to discuss personally with me any grievances which they considered they were labouring under in order that these might be fully gone into and relief afforded where it was possible and practicable to do so. Many matters were referred to in the course of the interviews, and a number of them could not be regarded otherwise than as suggestions relative to the administration of the Department, and were matters such as could not be referred to the Public Service Commission, as that body could not be expected to deal with questions of that kind. For example, the question was raised of providing mail porters to assist the officers on the Travelling Post Office over certain sections of the railway line; the question of placing junior assistants on rotating duties in country offices was brought up; also whether the uniforms issued to Cape Town postmen were of sufficiently good quality and whether medical facilities at reduced rates could be granted. Other representations referred to the withdrawal of free railway passes and ticket orders—a matter falling entirely within the province of the Railway Administration. A request was made for the refundment of Pension Fund contributions, a matter governed by Pension Fund legislation in the four Provinces; in the case of the Orange Free State, total exemption from contributing to the fund was asked for notwithstanding that Parliament had only recently decided that such contributions must be made. The interpretation of certain clauses in the Public Service Act was raised in regard to which the Government had already been advised by the law officers, whose decision had been indicated, and in respect of which no good purpose could have been served by a reference to the Public Service Commission. Other representations affected matters of long standing prior to Union, which the Public Service Commission in individual cases had informed the department they were not prepared to deal with; and others again referred to matters of principle which had already been decided by the Government in respect of the whole of the Civil Service, and consequently could not be departed from in the case of the Post Office; for example, the sufficiency or otherwise of the local allowances generally paid to Civil Servants throughout the Union. No undertaking was given to the members of the deputations that the whole of their representations would be submitted to the Public Service Commission, but they were distinctly informed that all these matters would be considered by the Government, and that the Government’s decision would be given in each case as early as practicable. The men could be under no misapprehension on this point, and in reply to the staff in connection with their request for a Commission of Inquiry, it was stated that it is held by the Government that these matters can best be dealt with and adjusted after considering the report of the Public Service Commission on any points which it is necessary to refer to the Commission, which clearly indicated that only in such cases as were considered necessary by the Government were representations from the staff to be referred to the Public Service Commission. The allegation that the staff and public have been misled by the statement made by me in the reply to the representations from the deputations is quite erroneous. If any misunderstanding exists in respect to the functions of the Public Service Commission in regard to the consideration of general grievances it will probably be found that such misunderstanding has arisen from the statement made by the Commission in its first annual report to Parliament, on page 6, paragraph 11, which reads: “Another duty which the Commission has been called upon to perform, and which it has gladly undertaken, is to act as a Court of Appeal to the Public Service in all cases where grievances exist.” Had the Commission qualified this statement by a reference to the limited scope of their functions in this connection, there could have been no room for misconception. Individual appeals against the decision of the Postmaster-General which are requested to be referred to the Public Service Commission and which in my view come within the scope of their functions, are sent forward to that body. Under these circumstances the Government sees no necessity for appointing the Commission of Inquiry referred to in the hon. member’s question.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether, seeing it is very inconvenient for a large number of the employees to fetch their letters at the railway station, the Government will open the required post office at the pottery works on the farm Olifantsfontein ?

The matter is being looked into.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether, in view of the large amount of traffic to the pottery works of Sir Thomas Cullinan, and seeing the present station is too distant, the Government will have a halt or siding made near to the pottery works on the Johannesburg-Pretoria line?

The question was ordered to stand over.

had given notice to ask the Minister of Finance, when the Government expects to be able to lay the report of the Economic Commission on the Table of the House?

The question dropped.

Mr. Speaker, may I, before the House proceeds with the Orders of the Day, call attention to what I conceive to be a gross irregularity of the Votes and Proceedings of yesterday? I see in the division list, as given on pages 195 and 196, my hon. friend Sir David Graaff is given as having voted with the Ayes on the division taken last night on the amendment of the right hon. the member for Victoria. West to section 4. Prior to the division being taken, I agreed with Sir David Graaff, at his request, to pair with him, having previously refused to pair with another hon. member.

I would ask the hon. member whether this appears on the Votes and Proceedings? What is the objection taken to the Votes and Proceedings?

My objection is that, having paired with Sir David Graaff, he ought not to have voted.

Oh, no; I must call the hon. member’s attention to the fact that the House can take no notice of pairs. They are unknown to the House. Whatever private arrangements hon. members may make, the House has no cognisance of.

I can quite understand that, but I consider it my duty to call attention to what I consider to be a breach—

Oh, no; I cannot allow that. It is not in order.

said that he desired to make an explanation. He had had no notice of this matter, and he thought it was due to the House that he should make an explanation, or hon. members might be under the impression that he had made a contract with the hon. member for Barberton, and not carried it out. Therefore, he thought it only fair to say that, when he approached the hon. member for Barberton, he understood the hon. gentleman had already been given a name to pair with. He asked the hon. gentleman: “Will you pair with me? ” The Whip was standing by, and said that the hon. member for Barberton had paired with the hon. member for Tembuland.

Not so.

He had it on the paper, and showed me. Under that impression, I left. Continuing, he said he felt sure that his hon. friend must be under a misapprehension, because when he passed his word, he stuck to it. In conclusion, he said he considered he was at perfect liberty to vote until he got a pair.

said he was present when the hon. member for Barberton refused to pair with the hon. member for Beaconsfield. He did not know anything about Mr. Schreiner. The point was that somebody or other went and told him the hon. members had paired. He was not paired.

How was I to know ?

said that the House could not take cognisance of these matters, and if he had known what the hon. member for Barberton was going to say he would not have allowed him to proceed.

said that he was the Whip concerned, and he went to the hon. member for Barberton first. The hon. member for Namaqualand was in the room at the time, as well as the hon. member for Beaconsfield. He asked the hon. member whether he would be paired with the hon. member for Tembuland, and after some hesitation he said “Yes.”

I refused.

I put it on my paper. The hon. member for Namaqualand nodded. Continuing, he said he went up to the hon. member for Barberton and said that the hon. member for Tembuland was anxious to leave the House, and he asked him if he (Mr. Becker) could pair him with the hon. member for Barberton. The hon. member for Namaqualand consented to him doing that and he left the room.

The incident then closed.

was understood to draw attention to a question that had been altered.

said there was nothing before the House.

My question was—

If the hon. member sees me privately I will tell him why. It was a most improper question, and that is why.

That the petition from W. J. Smuts, Senior Inspector of Sheep, of Inthlabiti, Bellville, who entered the Cape Civil Service in 1889, and was retired on the 31st July, 1913, praying that the House may grant him a pension, or for other relief, presented to this House on the 19th May, 1913, be laid on the Table, and, if agreed to, that it; be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from A. Harris, who in 1892 entered the Cape Civil Service as Lay Inspector under Act No. 39 of 1885, praying for the condonation of a break in his service, or for other relief, presented to this House on February 18, 1913, be laid upon the Table of the House, and, if agreed to, that the petition be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

Agreed to.

That the petition from Mrs. G. E. Atkinson, and others, praying that the Miners’ Phthisis Allowances Act, 1911, and the Miners’ Phthisis Act, 1912, may be so amended that their claims for compensation may become cognisable, or for other relief, presented to this House on the 29th February, 1914, be referred to the Select Committee on Working of the Miners’ Phthisis Act, 1912.

The motion was agreed to.

That the Government be requested to submit to the House during the present session a General Pass Law, to prohibit coloured people from wandering about without a proper pass; or, if on account of constitutional stipulations, this cannot be made of general application, then for such Province or Provinces of the Union in which such constitutional stipulations are not in force. In the course of his remarks, he said that he had brought the motion before the House with no desire to embarrass the Government or to cause trouble between the members and their constituents. His sole reason for introducing the motion was that it was absolutely necessary that the Free State Pass Law should be reinstated. The whole people of the Free State demanded that as was shown by the resolution adopted at the recent great farmers’ congress held at Kroonstad, General Botha had promised the people of the Free State that he would introduce such a law when he was in that Province, and the people now demanded that he should carry out his promise. He had hoped that General Botha intended to carry out his promise. It was generally admitted that the Orange Free State was a model State, and he could say with confidence that it had a model Pass Law. He proceeded to explain the terms of that law, pointing out that under its provisions no native before the war could leave the farm where he was employed without a pass from his master. He could not leave the district in which he lived without a pass from his master to the nearest J.P., field cornet, or landdrost, from whom he obtained a Government pass bearing a sixpenny stamp, and a similar pass was required with which to leave the State, except that in that case the pass bore a shilling stamp. It was made clear in that law that no coloured person could enter the Free State without a pass issued by the proper authority. That law was administered by the officials for a number of years under the supervision of the courts, and it worked well, but of late years there had been a great deal of hairsplitting over the terms of the law, with the result that it had been rendered nugatory. He proceeded to read a number of judgments which he declared had weakened the law, and said he quoted them not to throw blame on the courts, as he did not wish to question their legality. He only mentioned them in order to show how necessary it was that action should be taken. One of these judgments, delivered in 1905, laid it down that there was nothing that could correctly be referred to as a Pass Law, and the speaker agreed that the Pass Law had ceased to exist. In 1904 it was laid down by the courts that only burghers and not native constables could demand passes. That was an important decision. It had been forgot ten that the native constable had that right under clause 2 of the Act. Was it not necessary, he asked, that coloured constables on the border should obtain from Government the right to ask for passes? If they could not do that, they ought to be replaced by whites. The court further decided that natives attending a beer drink a mile from their camp without passes were not contravening clause 11 of the law. Then the court further laid down in 1906 that natives coming from Basutoland at the request of the chiefs without passes were not vagrants and could not be punished. He did not wish to cast any doubt on that judgment, though clause 10 of the Free State law provided that every coloured person who entered the Free State should be provided with a pass, signed by the missionary, chief, or official of the place of his domicile, stating the object of his journey and bearing a 1s. stamp. After that it was sufficient for a native who arrived in the Free State to say that he had come at the request of his chief. In a further decision it was decided by the court that natives could move about the ward in which they resided without a pass, and again in 1910 it was declared by the court that visiting an adjoining farm was not travelling, and that the Act was directed against vagrancy, and did not apply to natives with a fixed abode. In quoting these judgments, he said that he had no desire to pass any reflection on the courts, he wished only to make it clear that it was necessary immediately to reaffirm the Pass Law. If they accepted the judgment as correct that no native constable could demand a pass, then they might as well do away with them, for they could perform no other duties. Some of those judgments were in conflict with the laws of the Free State.

There was still a law in force in the Free State against beer drinks, without a licence, but as under the law as interpreted by the court no native could demand the pass of another taking part in such a function that law was practically abrogated. Only burghers were authorised to demand to see the passes. What was the result of all that? He read an extract from the annual report of the magistrate of Ficksburg for the year 1913, in which the magistrate said that stock thefts along the border of Basutoland continued as before, and that if regular statistics were kept of all stock lost and stolen in the border districts and never recovered it would be an “eye-opener to the Government. Seven hundred and twenty-four head of stock, valued at £2,300, was reported to the police as lost or stolen in the Ficksburg area during the year, of which 368 head, valued at £1,500, were recovered. Farmers living on the border had become so accustomed to losing stock that they no longer reported it to the police. The magistrate had little doubt that 90 per cent, of the stock stolen found its way into Basutoland. Should Parliament allow the burghers to be robbed in that way for all time? Were the burghers expected to get accustomed to it? The magistrate also referred to the prevalence of liquor smuggling on the border. Mr. Keyter, continuing, said Parliament had no right to allow such a state of Affairs to continue on the border. Only a few weeks ago the Government was spending hundreds of thousands of pounds for protection of life and property on the Rand, and he asked whether the people on the border of the Free State had not an equal right to have their property protected as those who lived in Johannesburg and Pretoria. Yet the people on the Basutoland border received no protection. He did not ask for the expenditure of large sums of money there. He wished only to have the law placed on a sound footing. Mr. Schreiner agreed with him that liquor should not be sold to natives. He was as strongly opposed to the liquor traffic as the hon. member for Tembuland, but he (Mr. Keyter) wished to go further. The question which he was now bringing before the House vitally affected the drink problem, and he thought he could confidently ask for Mr. Schreiner’s support. Smuggling of drink across the border was, according to the magistrate, on the increase, and that was because there was no Pass Law. It was absolutely necessary to control the natives, so that they should not be able to wander about and obtain drink, incidentally bringing poor white people into temptation. Only recently a poor woman had been fined £50 for yielding to such temptation and selling liquor to a native. It was the duty of the House to take steps immediately to reaffirm the Free State law. There was no need for him to refer to what had happened in the past, when natives were allowed to rob the citizens. They had to be preserved from such a state of affairs arising again. People of the Free State appealed to the House to assist them, for the present condition was intolerable.

in supporting the motion, remarked that the Free State was not the only part of the Union which was clamouring for a Pass Law, and he claimed that other portions of the Union were in much the same position. They had been asking for this for years past, but were referred to the British Constitution,‘which did not recognise colour distinctions and did not permit the principle that one person should have less rights than another person. But there was a difference between a barbarian and a white man, also between a barbarian and a coloured person or Cape boy. In support of the contention that the introduction of a Pass Law for the whole country would be nothing more than consistent on the part of the Government, he pointed out that in most municipal Ordinances the principle of a Pass Law was laid down, both in regard to wandering about and the use of strong drink. No doubt there were difficulties to be met when they tried to be consistent in applying such a law. There were parts where a general Pass Law could not be enforced, but where it could be done it should be done, and it could and should be done in the north, on the other side of the Orange River, where they had to deal almost exclusively with natives or barbarians for whom the law was necessary and with whom it would work successfully. He was, of course, in favour of a distinction being made in regard to the Cape coloured men, who had achieved a higher state of civilisation. The position at present was extremely serious, as the number of cattle thefts was increasing, and farmers wore suffering greatly. The evil doers were usually natives who had no visible means of subsistence. They had to bring the natives under proper control, and if a native was away from the place where be worked a policeman should have the right to ask him for his pass, and if he had no pass he should be punished. He hoped the Government would, before the life of this Parliament, ended, deal with the matter and introduce a Pass Bill. (Hear, hear.) He hart to bring the matter forward, as he was asked every year by his constituents when something was going to be done to bring about a change in the Pass Law. He did not ask for legislation during the present session, but thought that during the vacation an inquiry should be instituted so as to ascertain where such a law could be made to apply.

who also supported the motion, said it did him good to learn from the last speaker that the need for such a measure existed also in his district. The Pass Law of the Free State had always worked well, and had never had for its purpose the oppression or the humiliation of the natives. They did not want to have any humiliating laws, and the Pass Law tended to protect the respectable native. Most of the natives were well behaved, but on the other hand some of them were thieves. The pass system had fallen out of use since the war. Under military rule some wrong things had been done by privileged persons, wrong sentiments had been preached, and gradually the principle had fallen into disuse, Owing to different decisions by the courts, the law had been watered down until at the present time there was no longer a Pass Law in existence. In such a matter as that they could not go by statistics, but should rather listen to the remarks made by the farmers. It was impossible for the farmers to keep their cattle for ever around their homesteads, and when they were sent out it was not possible to count them every day. There was a good deal of cattle thieving now going on, and until the pass system was reintroduced the police would continue to be practically impotent. Beer parties were increasing in number to such an extent as to lead to loss by the farmers. Farming and cattle breeding were the principal industries of the country, and the Government ought not to have a deaf ear to all these complaints from the Free State but must take steps for the reintroduction of the Pass Law system.

said that the motion formed part of the ultimatum which the hon. member for Ficksburg (Mr. Keyter) had delivered with a great deal of force to the Government in the previous year. Now they had a second attack on those lines, and the hope was that a General Pass Law should be brought in. That question was a General Pass Law for the whole country, because the Pass Law for the Orange Free State was not a General Pass Law, and the foundation of that General Pass Law was, he presumed, to be the Pass Law of the O.F.S. Well, that was a little bit too thick, and going a little bit too far. If the hon. member had only studied the question of the Pass Laws in the whole country, he would have hesitated in saying that the most stringent laws of the Orange Free State should be extended over the whole country. There was less thieving going on in the Cape Province with its mild Pass Law than in the Orange Free State, on the hon. member’s own showing. He (Mr. Schreiner) could not avoid drawing the attention of the House and the country to the position taken up by their Free State members. In all those matters and in kindred matters they seemed never to recognise that they were part of the Union. There was to be no compromise because they were part of the Union, but they stuck out for everything they possessed in the old days. It was a fact that the legislation of the country had been greatly hindered by their attitude. Laws had been introduced but because they had been opposed by their Free State friends they had been dropped—he need not specify the laws. On what grounds did they claim the right to impose their laws upon the whole country? He really had thought that there must be something more behind this motion of the hon. member for Ficksburg than he was aware of. He had thought that the hon. member would have been able to tell them that, in some way which he had not been able to discover, the old Free State laws had been altered or repealed in some underhand fashion and, that he was claiming now that they should be reinstated. But there was nothing of the kind. The old, stringent, harsh Pass Law? of the Free State were in existence to-day, though the hon. member for Ficksburg contended that they had been whittled away by judgments of magistrates and judges during the last ten years. Surely these were stringent enough in all conscience. Under them, every coloured person who entered the Free State had to carry a pass, and any burgher or inhabitant might, and was expected to demand to see that pass, and if the coloured person had no pass he was brought before a J.P. or Landdrost, who could fine him £5, or imprisonment for three months, or contract him to a white inhabitant as a servant for not exceeding one year. This matter of the Pass Laws of the whole country was an extremely big one, and before a general or consolidated Pass Law was introduced, a prolonged investigation would be necessary by a Commission or otherwise.

In the Cape Colony proper they might say that there was scarcely any system of Pass Laws in existence. No evil effects had resulted. In British Bechuanaland there was a Pass Law and there were also certain passes required in the Transkei. In the Cape Colony proper they had got on very well without any such stringent or strict Pass Laws as were in existence in the other Provinces. In Natal there were inward and outward passes which were temporary. There were identification passes which came under the Masters’ and Servants’ Act. Cattle removal passes and reference passes, which protected the native who was going from one place to another. In the Transvaal they had general travels ling passes, identification passes and monthly labour passes There were also municipal passes. The Free State was the only place where they found existing an unjustifiable imposition of passes upon the natives. The hon. member for Ficksburg had very carefully said “no coloured person.” He did not say “native. ” He had taken the old phraseology of the Free State. The Government were being asked to pass a law which would make it obligatory on every coloured person in the country to carry a pass, however educated and respectable. He (Mr. Schreiner) would call attention to the case of a man who had been described as a “Booker Washington of South Africa,” a man whom anybody might delight to call his friend. When going on his way to act as chairman of the Congress last year he was stopped at Van Reenen, on the Free State border, by an ordinary policeman, and he was hauled out of the train and asked for his pass. He had his certificate of exemption from the Governor of Natal. That man was kept there, he believed, for 24 hours. Communications were opened with Maritzburg, and next day he was allowed to go on. Another man who held the certificate of exemption of the Governor of Natal went to the Transvaal, and was told that it was no good. Did not this show that there was no realisation that this was a Union ? He agreed that there should be a pass law for the whole country, but not the pass law that the hon. member for Ficksburg wanted. If he thought that a general pass law were to be introduced on the lines laid down by the hon. member, he would (despair of the future of South Africa. If there were to be a general pass law in the country it would have to be a milder one than that of the Free State and not a stricter one. They could not repress people for ever and ever. (Hear, hear.)

Continuing, he said that in the Free State the law required that native women should carry passes, and the power was given to municipalities to enforce this law. Native women of good standing were forced to carry these passes, and the result was that petition after petition had been sent to the Governor-General and the Government. A large number of most respectable native women had refused to take out these passes, and had gone to prison as a passive resistance protest against the injustice of the pass system, which had led to grave cases of immoral violence to women by constables and police, which had come before the court. This was an indignity that should not be put upon them, and it was a blot on their civilisation. That was the system that the hon. member for Ficksburg wanted extended over the whole country. It was character that counted, not the colour of a man’s skin, and they lowered themselves by classing all the natives together and placing these disabilities upon them. There was another point to which he would like to refer. The Free State Law No. 4 of 1895 allowed natives to attend Divine Service on passes lasting four days, although the church might be in another district. That was the kind of legislation they were seriously asked to extend over the whole country. The hon. member for Ficksburg brought this matter up last year and he had brought it up again this year, and he Mr. Schreiner) supposed that he would keep bringing it up until he got his way. All he asked was that the natives of the country should be treated in a fair and just manner. If the hon. member for Ficksburg and his friends were not satisfied with the judgments of the courts, let them go further, but it was unfair of them to come to that House and besmirch the character of the natives because every native was not a thief. With regard to the drink question, he would point out that it was not the natives who brought the drink from Bloemfontein, but the white purveyors along the border. He was obliged to take exception to the position taken up by members front the Free State. There was no part of the country that was closer to his heart owing to his connection with it in the past, and he was not speaking as an enemy but as a friend. He would like the legislation of the four Provinces to be on the same basis, but not on the lines laid down by the hon. member for Ficksburg, and he hoped that the Government would not promise anything of the kind. This was a matter that needed most serious investigation, and he was surprised at the hon. member for Ficksburg coming to the House in the way he had done. The motive of the hon. member for Ficksburg and his Free State friends seemed to be to obtain legislative help towards changing the position of the natives into serfs. The hon. member went on to refer to the question of sowing on shares which existed in the Free State, and pointed out that the natives had either to be servants or clear out. The point was that if the hon. member for Ficksburg obtained what he desired, when they got to the next farm they could be arrested for vagrancy. He hoped he had been able to throw a little light on the question, and that members would hesitate before supporting such a motion.

said if there was one speech that showed the need of a general Pass Law throughout the Union, or a modification of the present law, it was the speech of the hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Schreiner). He (Mr. Schreiner) thought he had a concession to act for the natives, but he was not the only member who held up the rights of the natives. There were people in the Free State who treated the Kafirs quite as well as did the hon. member and his friends. He had had experience in Natal of Kafirs wandering about without passes, and one result was that the farmers could never be certain of their workmen. When the farmer wanted the Kafir he was away, having obtained from one or other magistrate a pass to enable him to go to Johannesburg. At every meeting, which he (the speaker) had attended, his constituents had asked questions concerning the Pass Law. He (Mr. Myburgh) agreed with the mover that a revision of the Pass Laws was necessary. He was surrounded on three sides by natives where he lived, and the amount of thieving that went on and the wandering about of Kafirs was unbearable.

He felt that an amendment of the existing Jaws was necessary in the direction of a General Pass Law. He realised that the present state of affairs was far from satisfactory, one of the results being that farmers were short of labour. He moved an amendment that the word “coloured” in the motion be altered to “native.”

was sorry the hon. member for Ficksburg (Mr. Keyter) had brought forward this matter, as the hon. member knew perfectly well that there was no chance of satisfactory legislation being passed during the present session; and in view of the trouble that had recently taken place in industrial circles, and, further, the Indian trouble in Natal, the hon. member must have known that such legislation as he proposed would have to be applied against Asiatics as well as natives. Members had told the House of the number of native offences taking place in the North, where stringent regulations existed, while in the Cape Province, where they had not these laws and regulations, there was comparatively little native crime. He (Mr. Alexander) thought there were other methods that might be used to prevent these offences or to punish natives committing crimes. One of the matters the Commission which was recently appointed to go into assaults on women, dealt with was the consideration of amendments in the Native Pass Laws. This Commission reported, in a sense, very different to the views of the hon. member for Ficksburg (Mr. Keyter). That Commission showed abu6ses from the point of view of the native. So far from finding that these Pass Laws should be made more stringent, it was pointed out that the mind of the native was in a state of confusion, owing to the number of the laws and regulations that existed. He (the native) found himself committing offences against laws of the existence of which he was totally unaware, and was put into prison and brought in contact with criminals. In this way these Pass Laws resulted in manufacturing crime. In Natal they had about twelve different passes, while in the Free State there were four, and in the Transvaal nine. So there was little wonder that the natives were confused and embarrassed by the existing number of passes. What was move, these different laws were not published in the native language, and this omission had the effect of getting the native into trouble without him knowing the reason why.

The hon. member for Ficksburg would be doing a great service by letting natives know what the Pass Laws were. A native sometimes was quite ignorant of the laws he broke, and by being put into gaol he became a member of the criminal classes. The Commission found that certain white people of the Transvaal caused mischief. These people associated with natives as receivers of stolen property, and gave the natives passes. Then a six days’ pass given to a native to allow him to search for work afforded a native greater licence to enter private premises than was accorded the white man. Some hon. members had favoured the municipalities controlling the pass regulations, but the Commission was of opinion that this matter should not be left to municipal bodies. Nor was the Commission in favour of native women carrying passes. It also pointed out that great injustice was sometimes done to a native through his late employer putting a false character on his pass, and the Commission recommended that this should be made a criminal offence. These recommendations were very different indeed from those of the hon. member for Ficksburg, who was talking apparently for consumption among his constituents. Under these circumstances he (Mr. Alexander) did not see that any good could result from the adoption of the motion, and he therefore moved the previous question.

You cannot move the previous question where an amendment to a motion has been made.

hoped that the Prime Minister, before he did anything in the matter, would visit the Transkei and the Frontier, where there were over a million natives, and make himself acquainted with the conditions of the natives in those parts. These people were law-abiding and peaceful, owing to a very great extent to the confidence they had had in the late Cape Parliament. These natives trusted men like the late Mr. Sauer and the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman), because they found that these gentlemen would always listen to them and try to be just and fair. It the Prime Minister would visit the Frontier and the Transkei he would learn a great deal about the natives, among whom there was a growing feeling of unrest and dissatisfaction, because motious like that of the hon. member for Ficksburg were brought before the House. (Hear, hear.) A good deal of good would be done if the Prime Minister would go among the natives, talk to them, and show them that he wanted to be fair.

said the hon. member for Tembuland had rightly pointed out that the motion was actually a part of the motion which had been moved last year by the hon. member for Ficksburg. In connection with the latter motion the speaker’s predecessor, the previous Minister of Native Affairs, had delivered a speech covering the whole of the details, and the speaker hoped that hon. members would re-read that speech. He regretted that the hon. member for Ficksburg had brought forward the subject again. He would not repeat the speech which the Minister had delivered last year, but hoped they would not forget what was then said.

He found himself in agreement to a large extent with what had been said by the hon. member for Ficksburg. There were no doubt great difficulties inseparable from this question. The question was a most serious one, though from the manner in which the hon. member had discussed it, it did not appear that he had sufficiently grasped the weight of the question. The hon. member had quoted a number of decisions which had been taken by the courts, and now asked the House to take immediate action. But those decisions were not new. They dated from 1903, 1904, 1906 and the last decision was given in 1910. They were accordingly all taken at dates prior to Union. Well, it was a matter that they had got to handle with prudence. Natives formed an important part of the population, and were entitled to be treated with fairness and justice, just as the white people were. They had got to accept the facts of the position in South Africa as they found them.

If the subject-matter of the motion constituted such a great grievance in the Free State, why had not the Free State itself set the thing right? They had had the opportunity. He gathered that difficulties had been discovered to be in existence which made it impossible for the Free State Government and Parliament to put matters in order. Had legislation in that direction been introduced then? The Free State law on that point was still the law of the old Republic. In dealing with questions of that character, it was not desirable to deal with them in scraps and fragments. They could not do something to-day for the Free State and something else to-morrow for another Province. If they did not lose sight of the fact that they had to deal with a numerous native population without direct representation, they would see that they were bound to follow a broad and sympathetic policy. The native was particularly obedient to the laws of the country. Of course, some criminals were to be found amongst them, but the proportion of native criminals was not greater than amongst whites.

The hon. member for Cape Town, Castle, had stated that they had already had a Commission in connection with the Pass Laws, and that it had recommended in favour of greater uniformity and simplicity in the laws. The speaker did not think they could come to an immediate decision on such a report, and they should try as far as possible to avoid setting up irritation in the minds of the natives. The natives should be troubled as little as possible, should be protected, and steps should be taken to enable them to help themselves. The Commission had also made recommendations concerning the rights of municipalities over natives, and that was a question which demanded careful consideration. The speaker had only been Minister of Native Affairs for a short time, and certain matters had so occupied the attention of the Government that it had not been possible to devote much attention to other matters. It was necessary that there should be legislation in the direction desired by the mover of the motion, but they must not go to extremes. The laws should be moderate and acceptable. It had been stated that the Free State Government was a model Government, and that was true, but its native population had always been very small, and their difficulties were consequently not so great as in the other Provinces. He had lived as a boy in the Free State, and, indeed, only left it when he became a man, and was therefore well acquainted with the condition of affairs there. It was still easily possible to put matters right in the Free State. But it was not right of the hon. member for Ficksburg to make it appear that in Johannesburg, for example, more protection was given than to the ’people of the Free State. That was not fair. Why should less protection be given to the Free State than to other parts of the Union? He knew of no reason. The man who was Minister of Justice in the Free State was perfectly well acquainted with the condition of things in that Province. The same man had been Minister of Justice for three years under Union, and there was no reason why he should give less protection to the Free State than to other parts of the country.

It was an excellent thing to have a Select Committee on Native Affairs, as the native question ought not to be made a party question. If they started on the principle that they intended to be just, the question would be satisfactorily settled. The speaker had had a good deal of experience in native matters, as he had been Native Commissioner for thirteen years, and he wished to say that if the white man was willing to do his duty, the settlement of the question would not be found to show any insurmountable difficulties.

He moved as an amendment that the question of codifying the Pass Laws be referred to the Select Committee on Native Affairs for consideration and report.

said it was their duty to represent and protect the interests of the public. He spoke as a north-eastern Free Stater, and he felt that the time had come when they ought to protect the farmer, who was the backbone of the country. The people of the Free State had suffered for a long time from lack of protection against the coloured people, and the motion moved by the hon. member for Ficksburg would do a good deal of good. In the eastern portions of the Free State, where a good deal of grain was grown, it often happened, when the natives were not bound to the farmer, that they disappeared just when they were most necessary. The coloured man was the natural labourer of the land, and they must make him serviceable.

The speaker went on to say that he could not agree to the amendment, and held that if they continued to shelve all important questions in that way the very existence of the farmer would be threatened. It was possible that conditions were different in the Cape Province, but it was necessary in the Free State to keep the coloured people in order by legislation. He trusted, therefore, that the original motion would be unanimously agreed to.

said he hoped the House would accept the amendment moved by the Prime Minister. The hon. member meant well by his motion, no doubt, but what the Prime Minister proposed was what had been urged last year. The speaker was very sorry that the hon. member for Tembuland always tried to make it appear that it was the object of the hon. member for Ficksburg to oppress the coloured man, and as if the coloured man had in former days always been oppressed. That was not the case. No doubt it was a little troublesome to be required to carry a pass, but it was necessary. They should remember, too, that the coloured man in the Free State also was the owner of cattle, and that he too deserved to be protected against travelling wasters who lived by theft; The proposal was therefore both in the interest of the coloured man and of the white man. It was not the intention, as the hon. member for Tembuland appeared to think, to force the Free State law on the Cape. The speaker remembered the report and the recommendations of the Commission of 1910. There was formerly a good law in existence in the Free State, but in consequence of the decision of the courts the position at the present moment was that there was no longer a law in existence. The hon. member for Cape Town, Castle, had stated that the number of cattle thefts in the Free State had always increased despite the many sharp and severe laws in the Free State. Anyway, the speaker hoped that the hon. member for Ficksburg would accept the amendment which had been moved by the Prime Minister.

said he hoped the amendment would not be accepted. It was now time they did something. If they referred the matter to the Select Committee it would be shelved for an indefinite period, and it was a matter which could not suffer further delay. That appeared plainly enough from the speeches which had been delivered in the House. Action was necessary both in Bechuanaland and in the north of the Free State, and no hon. member had exaggerated the facts except the hon. member for Tembuland. The hon. member was a fanatic, and owing to his fanaticism was rather apt to rage on the subject. Nevertheless the hon. member for Tembuland was the greatest enemy of the native, as he was always trying to bring about friction between him and the white man. The Prime Minister would certainly see that to be the case. The hon. member had read things from the Pass Law which did not exist, seeing that the Free State Pass Law was dead. The law had been so attenuated by judgments of the courts that it no longer had any use. The Prime Minister had asked why the Free State Government had not done something in the matter. Well, the fact was that the Government had done something. In 1909 a motion had been brought forward and was adopted. The Grobler Commission was then appointed, but by the time the Commission had published its report Union was an accomplished fact. If the Free State had retained its independence for a longer time, then certainly something else would have been done. Mr. Fischer was very much afraid of interfering with native affairs. In 1909 they had got something done in the direction of prohibiting sowing on shares, but the Bill was not assented to by the Imperial Government. In the speaker’s district the farmers had said they intended to take the law into their own hands if the thefts did not cease. There were three mines in the heart of the district. They had no compounds, and on Saturdays and Sundays the Kafirs went about the district. Then it was that cattle were stolen, and the police were unable to track the thieves. Complaints to the mine managers helped them not at all. It was true that the calling up of the burghers had brought about some improvement, as they had succeeded in catching the thieves in the night-time and given them a severe thrashing. Since then the thefts had somewhat diminished. The wandering about of Kafirs was made possible by the fact that it was not necessary for them to bear passes. In the border districts of Boshof and Jacobsdal the coloured people crossed over the border and returned drunk, and all without a pass. They had got to make an end of that.

The Prime Minister ought to have moved that the matter be referred to a special Select Committee, with instructions to bring out its report during the present session of Parliament and to bring forward draft legislation. They should do something in the present Parliament. During the four years of its existence Parliament had done very little, and they were about as far advanced on this subject to-day as they were four years ago.

The carrying of a pass would help to work against the liquor traffic. The hon. member for Tembuland was opposed to the liquor traffic, and yet he opposed the pass system. That was illogical.

The speaker said he was willing to support the amendment of the hon. member for Vryheid, but he could not support the amendment which the Prime Minister had moved.

said that all questions which concerned the native wore difficult. The hon. member for Tembuland was misled by his attachment to the natives into believing that every motion coming from elsewhere was meant to be hostile to them. Not all the Kafirs perhaps were so excellent in disposition as those in Tembuland. Although the speaker did not know the conditions which prevailed in Tembuland, he yet believed that something needed to be done there. He would like to see whether something could not be done to improve the condition of the native. The hon. member for Tembuland did not seem able to understand that the object of the pass system was to see to the well-being of the Kafir. Or did the hon. member think it was a good thing that the Kafirs should wander about from farm to farm on Sundays and drink till they became intoxicated? Did he think it was a good thing for the Kafir girls to go to the towns and live an immoral life there? Certainly twenty out of every twenty-five farmers in the Cape complained of cattle thefts. If the hon. member was not a fanatic in his belief that all farmers were hostile, and was not entirely misled by his preference for the natives, he would take a broader view of the subject. The natives who were punished under the Pass Law did not become criminals in the sense used by the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle. It was not their object to oppress the Kafirs, as that would do much evil to the white man as well as to the black. It was speeches such as that delivered by the hon. member for Tembuland which created the impression, as soon as they had anything to propose, that the object was to oppress the natives or to rob them of their rights He only wished the hon. member ‘could see that. Well, the speaker thought that something would have to be done, and the longer they postponed a settlement of the question the more difficult it would be to settle. He was in favour of the motion of the hon. member for Ficksburg, but thought the amendment moved by the hon. member for Vryburg was very desirable. Under the existing., circumstances it was necessary to draw a line between natives and coloured persons.

said he was sorry that this pass law was proposed to be applied not only to the natives, but also to the coloured people of the Cape Province. He would have thought that at this stage in the history of the Union, after the experience the hon. member had had of the Cape Province, he would have taken a more liberal view and would have recognised that the Cape coloured people were not in the same scale of civilisation as the natives. He was doubtless aware that there were thousands of coloured people in this Province who enjoyed the vote, that they were on a different plane altogether as regarded their standard of living, and that they were ambitious and in many instances occupied positions which brought them in very good wages indeed and gave them considerable spending powers. He merely wished to say that, under the circumstances, he certainly would not be able to support any measure which did not discriminate between the Cape coloured man and the I native.

said he had not heard so many complaints in his own district, and in any case the Pass Law would not help them very much to put a stop to cattle thefts unless they had sufficient police. The Pass Law could, however, do a great deal to prevent the wandering about of natives, and it was quite possible to distinguish between them and coloured persons. The Pass Law went to the very root of the native question, but legislation could not immediately be brought forward. It would, however, be possible to bring about a change in the laws so as to prevent wandering about. In his district there were not so many beer parties, the police being especially vigorous there. In the Free State they had had Responsible Government for three years, and what had they done? It was impossible to give the Union Government all the blame, and the hon. member should withdraw his motion. They must treat the native with justice and endeavour to raise him. There was a native in his own district who was good for £0,000, and it was impossible to compel a man of that sort to carry a pass, while they allowed a coloured man to go about without one. He supported the amendment which had been moved by the Prime Minister, so that they could have a thorough inquiry into the whole subject

said he could not agree with the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle, where he said it was the intention to injure or oppress the native. The hon. member certainly did not know the natives in the speaker’s district. The speaker was well acquainted with the conditions which prevailed in the Transvaal, and could understand the difficulties which they had to face in the Free State. The natives went to the mines, with the result that the farmers were left without labour. There was no good Pass Law. The farmer could give a native a pass to go and work in the mines for a few months, but in that case the latter would never come back, and would be spoilt there. It was the easiest thing in the world for him to get a pencilled pass from his mine baas, with which he could wander about the place, and then there were thefts in all directions. The farmers in the neighbourhood of the mining districts had scarcely a fowl left. Cattle thefts and beer drinking parties were on the increase, and it was time that something was done to stop such things. He hoped the Prime Minister would appoint a special committee to inquire into the matter, as the Committee on Native Affairs had already got too much work.

said the importance of the question before the House was so great that it could hardly be exaggerated. The native could no longer be dealt with on the lines of 40 years ago. Since the opening of the mines in Johannesburg the native had changed to a very great degree, but they must remember that after all he was a human being and should be treated with the greatest consideration which the white man could give him. He had been passing through a course at that university of crime, the mining district, and had gone back to his kraal a changed individual. He had taken back with him not only now ideas but fell diseases, miners’ phthisis, and other diseases of a very serious character. A few years ago he (Mr. Wiltshire) was in quarantine for six weeks in consequence of a young native having brought back small-pox to his kraal on the farm, but there were greater evils even than those, and he thought they could be best investigated on the lines laid down by the Prime Minister. With regard to the hon. member for Tembuland, it was certain that whether he was extreme or not, his representations deserved most respectful attention, and he hoped the members of a Select Committee would give great consideration to the hon. gentleman’s opinions. The Kafir was no longer regarded merely as, a chattel, and therefore he (Mr. Wiltshire) heartily supported the proposal of the Prime Minister.

said he was being constantly asked by his constituents why nothing had yet been done in this matter. He thought it was wrong to look at the question from a sentimental point of view. The reason why they could not make any comparison between the white man and the black was because they were totally different persons. People were complaining everywhere of thefts which were committed in the nights by Kafirs. In Colesberg there were twelve cows and eight heifers plainly branded, and yet they got lost, and no trace of them had been found to the present day. It was believed that a Pass Law would bring about an improvement in that respect. Of course, they must treat the natives with justice, but in having a Pass Law there was no unfairness to them. The words “coloured person” in the motion ought to remain there, as they had the Hottentot in, the Cape, and he wandered about a good deal. The speaker knew of one man who had wandered about for weeks on end without visible means of subsistence, and he had once caught him in the act of killing sheep. The man was sent for eighteen months to Kimberley, and when he came back he said that his work consisted of sorting diamonds. Since then he had been twice in prison for the same offence. They could avoid all difficulty by not making the Pass Law compulsory. If a district wished to apply the law it could get permission to do so. The Kafirs who were employed on the railways spent the Saturdays and Sundays wandering about, and they did a good deal of mischief. If the amendment of the Prime Minister was agreed to, the chance existed that they would meet again the following year and still nothing would be done. Could not they appoint a special committee with instructions to bring up a report? They could then do something during the present session, so that the grievances of the public might be removed.

said the matter was discussed every year, but nothing had yet been done. What were the objections to the pass system? Why should that system give rise to dissatisfaction? It was a protection to the well-behaved native. The man who honestly went his way, and honestly earned his own cattle, had no objection to carry a pass. It was the man who got his cattle dishonestly who objected to it. If a Kafir had a pass to transport fifteen head of cattle it would not be possible for him to travel with sixteen unless he was able to account for the sixteenth not mentioned in his pass.

He could not support the amendment moved by the Prime Minister. It had been said that use would be made of the passes for the purpose of giving the natives bad characters, but that was an entirely false charge to make against the white people who drew up the passes. The natives had been quite happy under the Pass Law in the Free State, and that condition of affairs should be reintroduced. There was nothing humiliating in having to show a pass. Even hon. members themselves when they travelled by train were obliged to show one. He intended to support the original motion.

said the people in the Free State felt that a change had become necessary. It was felt there that a proper Pass Law was necessary to provide for their requirements. Personally he was not entirely certain on the point, but the opinion in favour of such a law was so general that he thought they would have to satisfy the people. He remembered the ordinance which had been passed dealing with the transport of cattle, and which had brought about a great improvement. Unfortunately they opposed that in the Free State, because the law was carried out in such a manner as made it impossible. He feared there were a good many police-constables who thought they could catch the thieves in their offices, and that was not quite the case. In the Free State days there were four or five constables who did more than all the police they now had did, as the latter wore mostly used for the purposes of administrative work. Sheep thefts wore occurring more and more frequently, and it was necessary that they should revert to the pass system, but not to the Free State system, in which money was asked for passes. The passes should be supplied gratis. He also hoped the Government would take steps to reduce the very heavy poll-tax in the Orange Free State. He did not quite know how he would vote on the motion. He should first vote for the amendment by the Prime Minister, and if that were rejected he would vote in support of the motion. Then there might be a chance that they would get something done.

in reply, said they had never attempted to force the laws of the Free State on the other Provinces. It had been stated that the Kafirs were not represented, but he knew of some who were wrongly represented. He was, personally, a friend of the Kafir, and wished to treat him with justice, but in order to do that it was necessary to keep him in his right place. Although they had tried on several occasions to get a proper Pass Law carried, they had never succeeded.

He could not vote in support of the amendment of the hon. member for Vryheid, and would prefer to support that which had been moved by the Prime Minister, because if that were not agreed to they would get nothing.

The amendment of the Prime Minister, to delete all the words after “that” and to insert the words “that the question of the consolidation of Pass Laws be referred to the Select Committee on Native Affairs,” was adopted.

moved that Order No. 4—“that the Women’s Enfranchisement Bill he now read a first time”—be discharged and set down for Tuesday, March 10.

This was agreed to.