from J. McKay, retrenched after twenty-one year’s Government service, for relief.

from A. C. F. Greville, formerly in Department of Surveyor-General, Transvaal, and retired on a pension based on the period of his actual service only, for relief.

from the widow of C. Shaw, late Special Clerk to the Government Electrician, Cape Town, praying for commutation of her pension

from the widow of B. Miller, late officer in the Transvaal Detective Police Force, Germiston, for relief.

from the widow of the late H. Loader, who died in the execution of his duties as East Coast Fever Inspector, for a gratuity.

announced that the Select Committee on Standing Rules and Orders had appointed Mr. Van der Riet to be a member of the Select Committee on the Rand Water Board Supplementary Water Supply (Private) Bill in the stead of Mr. C. L. Botha.

said he would like to move that he be discharged from service on the Rand Water Board Supplementary Water Supply (Private) Bill. He found that, according to Rule 322, every member who desired to serve on a Select Committee on a private Bill which was opposed was required to make a declaration to the effect, firstly, that his constituents had no local interest; and, secondly, that the member himself was not personally interested in the Bill. His constituents had no local interest, as far as he was aware, but he personally had an interest in the Bill, inasmuch as he was the owner of property in the locality which was directly affected by the subject-matter of the Bill— property which might, or might not, become liable to assessment if this Bill became law. For that reason, he thought he would not be justified in signing the declaration required of him by the Rules of the House.

That is rather remote. If the hon. member has conscientious scruples, the House will recognise those scruples.

said he hoped that if any other members who were appointed on the committee had objections to raise, they would bring them forward now.

said he had intended adopting a similar course, but was advised to put his case before the committee. Under the circumstances, as the principle had been accepted, he thought that he also should be discharged from service on the committee.

On what grounds?

On similar grounds, and also on the ground that the Municipality of Johannesburg is interested in this scheme, and the Municipality happens to lie just within my division.

It was agreed, that Messrs. Hull and Nathan be discharged from service on the committee.

(for Sir T. M. Cullinan, Pretoria District, North) asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours if it is the intention of the Government to deal this session with the regulation of railway rates, so that the inland parts of the Union may be relieved of taxation through the medium of the railways, in accordance with the Act of Union ?

Clause 127 of the South Africa Act, which is the section bearing on this point, has been given effect to in its entirety since the 1st April, 1913, inasmuch as, since that date, no contribution has been made by the Administration: to the Consolidated Revenue Fund. Since-the date of Union, railway rates have been reduced to the extent of approximately £1,336,500 per annum, and the financial position, which will shortly be dealt with in the House, is such as will not admit of any further general modification of the railway tariffs.

asked, the Minister of the Interior whether the Government is prepared to take into consideration the desirability of increasing the import duty on butter, and of allowing wood for the manufacture of butter-boxes to enter the Union free of duty ?

I would remind the hon. member that the points raised by him were investigated by the Trade and Industries Commission. After mature deliberation, the Commissioners came to the conclusion that they could not, recommend any increase in the import duty on butter. As regards wooden boxes, the Commissioners were not unanimous. Two members advocated the repeal of the present duty of 15 per cent, ad valorem, but the majority thought that, as a considerable amount of capital had been invested in the local box-making industry, it would not be expedient to disturb existing arrangements. Both points are obviously of great concern to the dairying industry, end they will be carefully considered when the Customs tariff comes to be revised.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) How many classes of railway stations there are in the Union; (2) what is the pay received by the stationmasters of each class; and (3) whether there are stationmasters who, though promoted to a higher grade station, continue to receive only the lower grade pay, and, if so, what arc the reasons?

(1) Five. (2) Stationmasters are paid as follows and are, in addition, entitled to free quarters or allowances in lieu thereof:

Appointments at special grade stations are valued according to the importance of each position. Salaries of fourth-grade station-masters are increased to £205 after one year’s service at £195, and to £215 after two years’ further service; thereafter, if specially recommended, they can, after 3 years’ service at £215, proceed to maximum of £225. (3) In one instance only has a stationmaster been promoted to higher-grade and not had his salary increased above maximum of former grade. In this case grade of station was improved in December last, question of salary being held over to be dealt with in conjunction with general increments to be considered as from the commencement of the next financial year.

asked the Minister of Lands whether, seeing many of the poor burghers who were supplied with cattle by the Government only received four instead of eight head of cattle and have consequently not progressed to such an extent that they are able to pay for those cattle, and seeing also that the time for payment is at hand, he will, provided they regularly pay the interest, allow them extension of time until their cattle have sufficiently increased to enable them to repay the capital?

In those cases where it is clear that an extension of time is necessary to liquidate the indebtedness of those persons who have received issues of stock, in terms of Government Notice No. 955 of 1908 (Transvaal), such extension will be given, but each case will be dealt with strictly on its merits.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries: (1) How many phthisis claims were made to the Compensation Board during 1913, or, alternatively, for the last complete period of twelve months for which figures are available; (2) how many of these claims were granted; and (3) what annual percentage do these granted claims bear to the average number of underground men employed on the mines during the period referred to?

(1) For period 1st August, 1912, to 31st July, 1913: 3,628. (2) Claims granted, 2,704. (3) Or a percentage of 24.6.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs whether he will inform the House of the terms of reference to Mr. Buckle in connection with the inquiry into native grievances held by that officer after the strike of July last, and what were Mr. Buckle’s findings in the matter

By Government Notice No. 1,074, dated 31st July, 1913, Mr. Buckle was appointed as a Commissioner “to investigate the conditions under which natives are engaged for and employed on the mines of the Witwatersrand, and if any grievances or abuses be found to exist to make recommendations with a view to the removal thereof; to inquire into the control capable of being exercised over natives housed in compounds in the Witwatersrand area, and to make recommendations as to what measures should be taken with a view to safeguarding life and property in the event of any industrial or other unrest or disturbance.” His report has not yet been furnished, but it is expected that it will be in the hands of Government about the end of March next.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) What salary, if any, is attached to the position of representative of the Union on the Dominions Royal Commission; and (2) what expenses are allowed to such representative, and, if any, at what rate?

(1) No salary is attached to the post of Union representative on the Dominions Royal Commission. (2) A consolidated allowance of £3 3s. per diem will be paid to the Union Government Commissioner. This allowance is designed to cover all subsistence charges, hotel expenses, etc. Apart from this, the only charge borne by the public is for actual costs of necessary transportation. Should the Union Government Commissioner wish to proceed with the Commission beyond the confines of the Union, it may be necessary to make some alteration in the above detailed arrangement.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether Attorney-General F. W. Beyers was paid full salary while on recent leave, and what was the total of his emoluments during 1913; (2) what amount was paid to Mr. Advocate Greenlees by the Government for his services during 1913; and (3) whether Mr. Charles de Villiers, legal adviser to the Government, was paid salary whilst absent in Europe on six months’ leave, and what is the amount the draws annually for his services?

(1) The Transvaal Attorney-General was paid his full salary while on leave, to which he was entitled under the regulations, and the total of his emoluments during the year 1913 was the salary attaching to the office, £1,800 and £106 fees in civil cases. (2) Mr. Advocate Greenlees was paid at the rate of £120 per month from October 1, 1913, to January 17, 1914. (3) Mr. Charles de Villiers was paid salary while absent in Europe on six months’ leave. His annual salary is £1,500.

asked the Minister of Finance whether it is the indention of the Government to introduce a Bill during the present session of Parliament to consolidate the law relating to the licences required to be held by agents for foreign firms throughout the Union?.

A Bill has been drafted dealing with the matter alluded to by the hon. member, but I am unable, at this stage, to state whether an opportunity will arise for introducing the measure during the present session of Parliament.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours when the Benoni-Welgedacht railway, completion of which was promised about August last year, will be opened for traffic?

It is anticipated that the Benoni-Welgedacht line will be completed and opened for traffic some time in April next. But for labour difficulties experienced by the earthworks contractor, the line would have been opened in November last. The recent strike has also further retarded the work.

asked the Minister of Defence how many of the Bedfordshire Regiment were employed in helping to quell the disturbances at Jagersfontein in January, and by whose orders they were employed for this purpose ?

One officer and 42 other ranks of the Bedfordshire Regiment were employed on the orders of Major J. M. Traill, of the Bedfordshire Regiment, given on receipt of an urgent request for assistance from the Deputy-Commissioner, South African Police, Bloemfontein, the request having been made shortly after midnight on January 10, 1914. The detachment, together with a number of officers, students, and staff of the South African Military Schools, under the command of Lieut.-Col. P. C. B. Skinner, commandant, South African Military Schools at Tempe, entrained at 2 a.m., reached Jagersfontein at 6 a.m., and arrived back at Tempe at 7 p.m. of the same day, having been relieved by a detachment of the Active Citizen Force, which reached Jagersfontein at 11 a.m. on that day.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries if the fee annually paid to Mr. Ewald Esselen, K.C., as a “retainer” by the Premier Diamond Company is contributed by the Union of South Africa, to the extent of six-tenths, and, if so, what this six-tenths amounts to?

The fee paid to Mr. Esselen as a “retainer” by the Premier Diamond Company is included in the company’s accounts as ordinary expenditure, and, consequently, the Union contributes towards the fee to the extent of six-tenths.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that the Supreme Court of the Transvaal has decided that under section 8 of Act No. 26 of 1908, movable goods which have been stolen cannot be claimed by the owner if they were sold for cash and have been in possession of the buyer for fourteen days; and (2) whether he is not of opinion that in this respect the said section promotes theft and injures the owner; and, if so, whether he will during the present session introduce a measure to amend the said section?

(1) I am aware that the Supreme Court of the Transvaal decided on the 15th April. 1912, in the case of Seluka v. Suskin and Salkow, that under section 5 of Act 26 of 1908, stolen movable property cannot be claimed by the owner if such goods wore sold for cash to a bona fide purchaser, and have been in the possession of the purchaser for fourteen days. (2) I hope to be able to introduce, during the present session, a short Bill amending the said section 5.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether, in view of the vacancy on the Railway Board caused by the resignation of Colonel Greene, he will consider the advisability of allowing the wages and salaried staff of the railways and harbours an opportunity of electing by ballot a representative who understands railway working, to fill the vacancy on the Board?

No, sir.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that forty-three railway servants who complied with his instructions by applying for re-instatement within the specified time, are still unemployed and have received no reply to their applications; (2) does the Administration intend to reply to the applications of these men, and, if not, why not; and (3) has the Administration any intention of re engaging these men in the posts held by them immediately previous to the late strike, and securing to them their former privileges and emoluments; if not, why not; if yes, when?

(1) and (2) Forty-one men who made application before noon on 23rd January, and who have been recommended for further employment, have not yet been taken back. Applicants, whom it is proposed to re-employ, are told that they will be advised as soon as there is work for them. Their names have been noted, and employment will be found for them as opportunity offers. Applicants before noon on 23rd January whom it has been decided by the Departmental Committee not to re-employ, are advised of the committee's decision as each case is dealt with. (3) Any applicants for re-employment before the specified dates who may be further employed, will be engaged for the time being in their previously existing grades and at their old emoluments; but all questions with regard to status, permanent rates of pay and other conditions of service are regarded as provisional until determined by Parliament.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he is aware that recent railway strikers who were arrested under Martial Law at Volksrust, are being turned out of their houses, by the Administration at seven days’ notice, before they have been found guilty of any offence, and whether he will take steps to see that these men, with their wives and families, are not turned out into the street without any just cause?

The men have been given notice to leave railway quarters in terms of section 22 of the Railways and Harbours Service Act, and not because they have been arrested. The only men affected are those whom it has been decided not to re-employ. Seven days’ notice was given, but, as the quarters had not been vacated at the expiration of that period, it was decided to extend the notice for another week before applying for ejectment orders. The quarters are required for the staff now employed, who would be inconvenienced if the men whom it is decided not to reinstate were allowed to remain in occupation. In cases where doubt exists as to whether men may be re-employed, they are permitted to remain in railway, quarters pending the decision of the committee now investigating each individual claim for re-employment.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries: (1) What is the total amount, up to the 31st January, 1914, awarded to applicant under the Miners’ Phthisis Acts of 1911 and 1912; and (2) what amount on the 31st January, 1914, was standing to the credit of the Insurance Fund created by the Miners’ Phthisis Act of 1912?

(1) Total awards, £1,163,278; (2) amount of credit of Insurance Fund, £279,092 17s. 1d.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether it is a fact that employees in the machine shop, Salt River, are receiving grading papers giving a scale of wages which is 10 per cent, reduction off that contained in the printed regulations for the grades concerned; and (2) is it the, Minister’s mention to bring this 10 per cent, reduction into operation throughout the Railway and Harbour Service; and, if so, will it apply to the Minister and the General Manager?

The replies to these questions are in the negative, except that in the case of the Minister the reduction amounts to 16.66 per cent.

asked, the Minister of Defence: (1) How many cases were there in which compensation was paid by the Government to those who were injured through no fault of their own by the military in the strike of July last; (2) whit was the total amount paid as compensation; (3) what was the maximum amount paid in any one case, and the nature of the injury in that case; and (4) whether he will lay Mr. Jordan’s report on the Table of the House?

The replies to the hon. member’s questions are as follows: (1) Sixteen; (2) £3,205; (3) £420, in two cases. In one instance, the injury involved the amputation of a leg, in the other it has resulted in a permanently disabled leg; (4) the Commissioner’s reports are of a confidential nature and I do not think it would be in the public interest to lay them on the Table.

asked the Prime Minister: Whether he intends to introduce a Bill during this session for the purpose of amending section 44 of the South Africa Act, 1909, in such a manner that it shall be a further qualification to be a member of the House of Assembly that a candidate be the owner of land of a certain value?

replied in the negative.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will assist the citrus fruit farmers in the divisions of Humansdorp And Uniondale by: (1) Sending competent men from the Horticultural Department to instruct them in the methods of plucking, grading, and packing of citrus fruit for exportation purposes; and (2) reducing the shipping charges by doing away with the services of the agents at the ports?

(1) A competent officer of the Horticultural Division of the Department of Agriculture visited the districts of Humansdorp and Uniondale last year, for the purpose of instructing the farmers in the methods of plucking, grading, and packing of citrus fruit for export. Arrangements are being made for this officer to again visit the above-mentioned districts at the close of the present deciduous fruit-export season. (2) The Railway and Harbour Administration undertakes the clearance of fruit at the ports for shipment oversea, at specified rates.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries: Whether he will call for a report from his officials setting forth the extent and proximate causes of the alleged extensive unemployment throughout the Union?

In reply to the hon. member, I may say that the usual monthly report of the Labour Department for January will be published to-day. These monthly reports usually deal with unemployment and the state of the labour market, as reflected in the applications to the Labour Bureaux. The report for January does not disclose, so far as applications are concerned, any marked variation from previous months in the skilled trades. Unemployment during the past year has mostly affected unskilled labourers, and this is one of the social questions which in this country present peculiar difficulties. The exact extent of this unemployment is from its nature very difficult to ascertain. I have already called, for a more detailed survey of the present position as regards the mining industry.

asked the Minister of Defence: (1) How many persons have been killed and injured by gunshot and other wounds inflicted by forces in the employ of the Government since 30th June last, and what were the nationalities of such persons so killed or injured; and (2) how many members of forces in the employ of the Government have been killed or injured by gunshot and other wounds whilst engaged in the alleged suppression of disorder during such period?

said that the return was in course of preparation.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) How many Commissions have been appointed since Government took office in 1910; (2) what are their respective titles; (3) what are the names of the members appointed to serve on same; (4) how many sittings did each Commission hold; (5) how many of these sittings did each member attend, setting forth their names; and (6) how much was paid respectively to each of the members?

said he hoped to lay the return on the Table on the following day.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether he will lay on the Table of the House the report of the engineer on the inspection made of the proposed route for the improved main line between Pietermaritzburg and Durban, via Umsundusi and Umgeni Rivers, together with the report of the Railway Commissioners thereon?

said he hoped to lay the report on the Table at the earliest possible date.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours when the Kroonstad-Vierfontein line will be commenced, and where the junction with the Kroonstad-Vereeniging line will be?

The surveying and staking out have been completed, and actual construction work will be commenced as soon as the terms upon which the land can be acquired have been settled, in terms of section (1) sub-section (1) of the Railways Construction Act (23 of 1913); probably in a month’s time. A point approximately 2½ miles north of Jordaan Siding is proposed as the junction site.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours if he is aware that, owing to insanitary conditions, the stationmaster’s quarters at Diep River have been condemned as unfit for human habitation, and that the station buildings generally are quite inadequate to the demands; and whether he will have a careful inquiry made with a view to having the necessary alterations made?

The reply to the first query is in the negative. Complaints were made that the ventilation of the house was defective, particularly below floor level. This has been partly remedied, but, as the quarters are too small for the stationmaster’s needs, and are required for the purpose of improving the station accommodation generally, arrangements have been made to grant the stationmaster an allowance in lieu of quarters until a suitable stationmaster’s residence can be built.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether it is not a fact that letters of naturalisation have been refused to aliens on the ground that they were unable to read and write the English or Dutch languages, and, if so, whether this is not contrary to the spirit and intention of the Naturalisation of Aliens Act, 1910?

No hard and fast rule has been laid down in regard to educational qualifications, but the practice of the department is to refuse letters of naturalisation to illiterates.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether it is the fact that cables from London are now frequently delayed in transmission between Cape Town and Johannesburg, and whether he will take steps to see that the inconvenience thus caused to business people in Johannesburg is remedied as soon as possible?

It has unfortunately been the case that delay has recently arisen in the transmission of telegraphic traffic between Cape Town and Johannesburg, which was principally due to failures in communication caused by working parties effecting alterations and additions to the lines, as well as by severe weather. Everything possible, however, is being done to minimise the interference by working parties and to expedite the transmission of the traffic.

asked the Minister of Defence: (1) Whether, seeing it transpired during the recent disturbances that the burghers in the inland portions of the Union were practically unarmed, the Government does not agree that it is necessary to remedy such state of affairs without delay by (a) selling rifles at cost price to burghers who can afford to pay, and (b) by giving rifles gratis to all poor burghers?

The regulations for Defence Rifle Associations published in December, 1912, provided for the sale, and still provide for the sale, to members of Defence Rifle Associations of thoroughly serviceable military rifles at a very low price of £3 per rifle, and for the issue in certain frontier districts wherein the arming of the European population is a military necessity, of rifles on loan to members of Defence. Rifle Associations whose means do not permit them to purchase rifles even on the easy terms mentioned. In the case of citizens who responded to the call during the recent industrial crisis to enrol themselves in class B of the Citizen Force Reserve, when that reserve was called out under section 79 of the South Africa Defence Act, 1912, these are being permitted to retain on loan for so long as they remain so enrolled the rifles and bandoliers issued to them on that occasion.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: Whether he will lay on the Table of the House a list of the names of the 346 officers recently appointed in the Posts, Telegraphs, and Telephones service setting forth particulars as to previous service, if any?

Apparently the 346 officers referred to in this question constitute the estimated additional force needed to carry on the postal, telegraph, and telephone service during the next financial year. The appointments will be made from time to time as the exigencies of the work demand. It is, therefore, not at present possible to supply a list of the names as requested.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (a) Whether any decision has been reached with regard to bettering the conditions, in the interests of employees and the public, of Rondebosch Post Office; (b) whether any, and, if so, what, financial provision has been made; and (c) when the work will be put in hand?

The question of the postal accommodation at Rondebosch is still under consideration, and it has not yet been possible to arrive at a definite decision in the matter.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether, in view of the fact that he was under the impression, and was prepared to accept the position, that no railway servant taken on after the strike had suffered any reduction in pay, he would, pending the Bill he proposed to introduce, give instructions that the railwaymen in Durban should be treated in the same way?

The position was explained in the House on the 10th instant by a supplementary statement which I made in answer to the query raised by the hon. member, for Jeppe on the reply to a question by the hon. member for Greyville. The men at Durban or elsewhere who did not report for duty on or before the 23rd January, and who were warned of the penalty which failure to do so would entail, cannot be treated in the same manner as the men who returned within the dates specified, and, pending the introduction of legislation dealing with the whole situation, the Administration does not propose to depart from the position already taken up.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) When will the work of erecting the road bridge over the railway at Mowbray be commenced; (2) whether the congestion of traffic at the important level crossing at Rondebosch Station does not justify the urgent consideration of building an overhead bridge there; and (3) what practical steps are proposed to be taken, and have the municipal authorities offered any assistance in the matter?

(1) Work will be commenced as soon as settlement is arrived at with Unified Council. (2) The question of providing an overhead bridge at Rondebosch has been under; consideration for some time. A bridge at this place would be a convenience, but the Administration is not satisfied that the time has yet arrived when the work can be regarded as one of urgent necessity. (3) So far as Mowbray is concerned, the bridge material is on hand, and land for the road deviation has been acquired. Several points remain to be settled with the Unified Council before the Administration can proceed with the work, but a meeting is being arranged, and will take place at an early date, between representatives of the Council and the Administration, when it is hoped a satisfactory adjustment of outstanding differences may be effected. No offers of assistance have been made by the Council, so far as concerns the bridge itself, its erection, or the land acquired in connection therewith. As regards the proposed bridge at Rondebosch, joint inquiries were made recently by an engineer of the late Rondebosch Council and one of the Administration’s engineers; but, beyond this, no offers of assistance have been made by the municipal authorities.

asked the Minister of Finance when the Government will take the necessary steps to apply the import duty on meat, which exists in the three other Provinces, to the Transvaal?

As the hon. member is no doubt aware, the Transvaal is at present experiencing a period of exceptional drought. Whatever may ultimately be decided in regard to the question of imposing the meat duty in the Transvaal, the present is obviously a most inopportune time for considering any such proposal.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) How many prisoners were incarcerated in the prisons of Pretoria and Johannesburg respectively during the year 1913; (2) how many of these prisoners were incarcerated for contravention of the liquor laws; and (3) what was the total number of prisoners in the gaols of Pretoria and Johannesburg on December 31, 1913, and the number of these imprisoned for breaches of the liquor laws ?

(1) In the Pretoria Central Prison during. 1913, 1,070 prisoners were detained; in the Pretoria local gaol, 2,663; in the Johannesburg gaol, 11,831. These figures do not include the cases committed direct from the Courts to the road camps, but on the other hand, a certain number of the prisoners originally confined in the Johannesburg gaol were transferred to the Central Prison at Pretoria, and these therefore-figure under both heads. (2) Of the prisoners so confined, 4,156 in Johannesburg. 651 in the Pretoria Central Prison, and 249 in the Pretoria local gaol were detained for contravention of the liquor laws. (3) The total number of prisoners in custody on the 31st December, 1913, in Pretoria and Johannesburg, was 1,340. Of these 268 in Johannesburg, 414 in the Central Prison, Pretoria, and 21 in the Pretoria local gaol were imprisoned for breaches of the liquor laws.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: Whether the Government is negotiating the purchase, or has already purchased, a farm, from the hon. member for Pretoria District, North; and, if so, if the Minister will state where such farm is situated, the purchase price, and the object for such acquisition?

replied in, the negative.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries: Whether, seeing the Voorspoed Mine has been closed for more than a year and the Commission appointed by the Government has reported that the mine is worth working and that its being closed means an enormous loss to the Treasury as well as the total ruin of the poor people who were employed in it and is further detrimental to the people of the immediate neighbourhood, especially the farmers, the ‘Government intends to take without delay the necessary steps to have the mine reopened?

The question of the working of the Voorspoed Mine has given rise to a difference of opinion with the present owners. All such differences must be referred under section 52 of the Precious Stones Ordinance No. 4 of 1904 of the Free State to a Board consisting of an equal number of representatives of the owner and the Crown, and a Chairman who is appointed by these members. Communications have taken place with the owners with regard to the appointment of a Board under this section, and the name of the representative of the owners has now been submitted and the Government is taking steps to nominate its representative to enable the Board to proceed forthwith with its inquiries.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the cost of handling goods at Roodepoort Station is lower titan the cost of similar work at Krugersdorp, and, if so, whether the lower costs are due to white labourers working from 14 to 16 hours a day at Roodepoort; and (2) what wages are paid to the white labourers at Roodepoort Station and siding?

(1) Cost of handling goods at Roodepoort is lower than at Krugersdorp, for reason that Krugersdorp is a cartage station and Roodepoort is not. White labourers at Roodepoort are not called upon to work from 14 to 16 hours per diem. (2) Wages of white labourers at Roodepoort are as follows: One at 3s. 6d. per diem, one at 4s. per diem, and two at 4s. 6d. per diem.

asked the Minister of Justice whether the Government would take into consideration the desirability of introducing without delay legislation to do away with the existing differentiation in the pay of field-cornets in the Union?

The Government has already taken into consideration the desirability of doing away with the existing differentiation in the pay of field-cornets in the Union, and a Bill has been drafted for the purpose of placing all field-cornets as regards pay more or less on the footing of the field-cornets in the Cape Province. I am unable, however, to say at present whether it will be possible to get the Bill passed by Parliament this session.

asked the Minister of Finance what were the recognised agency charges made by the High Commissioner’s office in London for placing and dealing with oversea contracts?

I am at a loss to perceive the precise bearing of this question. There is no recognised scale of agency charges. The High Commissioner’s office only enters into contracts for Government supplies, and the whole establishment cost is shown in the Estimates. Perhaps the hon. member may have in mind the inter-departmental arrangement made between the Treasury and the Railways and Harbours Administration for arriving at their respective shares of the cost of the High Commissioner’s office. That arrangement provides that the Administration shall pay, the Treasury 1 per cent, on the value of all orders placed.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether, in view of the gravity of the crisis regarding the naval situation with which the Empire may be confronted within the next two years, the negotiations on the subject entered into in London on behalf of the Government of this Union are sufficiently advanced to enable a statement of the naval policy of the Government to be, made during the present session, and, if not, when may such statement of policy be expected; and (2) when the Government intends to resume the discussion on the naval defence of South Africa at the point where it was broken off by the death of the Right Hon. Mr. Fischer?

(1) No; (2) as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Education: (1) Whether a Mr. Webb was, at Benoni on the 18th December last, sentenced to pay a fine of 20s. or suffer two days’ imprisonment for failing to send his children to school; (2) whether the reason he advanced for failing to do so was that they, being in the lower standards, were instructed bilingually; (3) whether Mr. Webb was informed by the magistrate that, the only defences that could be accepted were (a) distance from school, (b) age. (c) illness, or (d) private tuition sanctioned by the Board; and (4) whether in the lower standards insistence to teach bilingually is not in contravention of the Education Act, 1207 (Transvaal)?

In answer to parts 1, 2 and 3 of the question: The department has no official knowledge in regard to the subject matter of the question, which falls under the jurisdiction of the Transvaal Provincial authorities. My attention has been drawn to an open letter in the “Benoni Advertiser,” addressed to me by Mr. Arthur A. Webb, on the subject referred to. The letter has, by my direction, been! brought to the notice of the Transvaal Provincial authorities. In answer to part 4, it is not for me to interpret Acts or Ordinances in so far as they have reference to education assigned to the Provinces under the South Africa Act.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) What amount has been paid in premiums for insurance against fire on Government property, including railways, and what is the amount of the claims paid, since the date of Union; and (2) whether the Government contemplate establishing their own insurance protection fund, retaining the premium money in this country?

(1) Premium payments since Union have amounted to £42,362, of which £33,127 has been paid in respect of railways and harbour risks. Claims paid aggregated £12,757, the Administration’s share of this being £12,733. (2) The Railways and Harbours Administration has established its own insurance, fund. In respect of other State property, the Government carries its own risks and no longer insures—with the exception of the printing works in Pretoria, which are exposed to special risk.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether he is aware that the passenger coaches and the crockery, cutlery and linen used on the railways between Johannesburg and Delagoa Bay and Barberton consist almost entirely of stock which is old and in bad condition, and which has been scrapped or bought from other lines, where it is regarded as no longer fit for use; and whether this is done as a matter of policy, and, if so, the reason for such policy?

No, the position is not as alleged. The rolling stock working over the Johannesburg-Delagoa Bay-Barberton sections is of the same type as and is interchangeable with the stock worked over, other similar lines. Of the 35 different through-saloons worked over these sections during the period 20th ultimo to 12th instant, 26 have been in service from one to five years, five from 6 to ten years, and four from 11 to 16 years. Crockery, glassware, cutlery and linen is precisely the same as is in use on other dining cars, and cars on Delagoa section are interchangeable with those on other lines.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether there have been cases where farmers and others in rural areas have-petitioned the department for the erection of telephone lines, such petitioners having expressed their willingness to guarantee to the department the amount of any reasonable deficit, if any, there might be for five years; if so, whether the department intends constructing those lines, or, if not what are the reasons for refusing to do so?

It is the case that guarantees have been received from farmers and others in various parts of the country for the construction of telephone lines. In view, however, of the very great demand for telephonic services throughout the whole of the Union, there must necessarily be some delay in carrying out such works. Applications in the various districts receive attention so soon as it is practicable to give effect to them.

asked the Minister of Defence whether he will lay on the Table of the House the correspondence, agreement and papers between the Government and the owners and master of the S.S. Umgeni relating to the deportation of certain persons whose names are scheduled in the Indemnity and Undesirables Special Deportation Bill now before the House?

on be half of the Minister of Defence, replied: There was no correspondence or written agreement between the Government and the owners or master of the S.S. Umgeni relative to the deportation of the persons referred to. Some telegrams, however, passed between the agent of the steamship company and a representative of the Government. I hereby lay these telegrams on the Table of the House.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether it is a fact that an inquiry was held into the matter of alleged tampering with railway points at Mowbray on the 14th January; and, if so, what was the result of such inquiry?

Between 7 and 8 a.m. on 14th January the signalman at Mowbray experienced difficulty in working the points. On examination it was found that a bolt had been removed, and that the nut and bolt had been placed on the same side of the rail. The incident was reported to the police, but investigations made failed to throw any further light on the matter.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether, since Union, a claim has been paid to the right honourable the Prime Minister for damage to a wattle plantation on his farm Rusthof alleged to have been caused by sparks from a locomotive, and, if so, what was the date of the fire, the amount paid, and were there any witnesses to the occurrence of the fire?

No claim has been paid for damage to wattle plantation on the farm Rusthof, but gum trees on this farm;were damaged by a grass fire on the night of 26th June, 1912. Investigation elicited the fact that the fire commenced inside the railway boundary during the night, and that the Administration was liable for damage. The damage was assessed by the Railway Horticulturist at £20, and that amount was paid in settlement of the claim.

asked the Minister of Justice: Whether it, is a fact that force and violence were used by the officers appointed to carry out the deportation of Trade Union officials deported by the S.S. Umgeni at Durban, and, if so, under what circumstances?

The persons deported by the steamship Umgeni were conveyed from Johannesburg to the ship at Durban under armed escort, but no force or violence was used by the officers appointed to carry out the deportation.

asked the Minister of Public Works: Whether tenders have been invited for building the bridge across the Vaal River at Parys, and when the work will be commenced?

Tenders for the construction of the bridge across the Vaal River at Parys are due to-morrow, the 18th instant. If a satisfactory tender is received, the work will be commenced shortly after its acceptance.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) What are the reasons why the poll-tax by coloured people in the Orange Free State is at present collected by the magistrates instead of by officers of the police as was formerly the case; and (2) whether he does not think that this costs more and also interferes with the ordinary duties of a magistrate?

(1) The Commissioner of Police objected to the police being called upon to perform tax collection duties as not being part of their legitimate functions. The Treasury thereupon informed the Department of Justice that it had been decided to relieve the police from performing such extraneous duties so as to enable them to carry out their proper functions and that the collection of poll and hut tax would in future have to be done by the magistrate’s staff and that the Inland Revenue Department would be authorised to incur the necessary expenditure involved in providing for additional clerks. (2) Representations have been made to me that the new method will cost more and will interfere to a considerable extent with the ordinary duties of the magistrate. I shall enquire into the matter in the recess and take such action as the circumstances demand.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether any official minutes were kept of the conference held last session between the Minister and certain Senators and other members of Parliament from Natal on the subject of the abolition of the £3 Indian licence, and, if so, whether he will lay such minutes on the Table of the House?

The reply is in the negative.

asked the Minister of the Interior and Defence: (1) Whether he will state whether the censorship still exists on the Johannesburg Press, and, if so, whether he will take steps to remove it, so that there may be free discussion of the Government's proposals; and (2) whether a censorship exists at present on cablegrams to and from England and South Africa, and, if so, why?

The reply to both parts of the question is in the negative.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether he is aware that the person who on or about the 11th January last acted as Postmaster at Bronkhorstspruit Station only knew English, and that a large number of farmers who happened to be there on that date to attend divine service, of whom 92 per cent, were Dutch-speaking, suffered great inconvenience thereby; and, if so, whether he will without delay take the necessary steps to provide that in out-lying places, where the majority of the population speak Dutch, the people will be served by bilingual officers?

The Post Office at Bronkhorstspruit is conducted by the station-master. I am not aware whether that officer is unilingual, but as far as practicable every endeavour is made to supply bilingual officials wherever required.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) What steps the Government are taking to., see that a proper examination is made of natives to discover whether they are suffering from miners’ phthisis; and (2) whether he will state the number of natives compensated during the past year, for partial or total disablement by phthrsis, and the total amounts paid?

(1) (a) All natives recruited from territories of British South Africa are examined by Government Medical Officers prior to registration, and, similarly, all natives recruited from Portuguese East Africa are examined by medical officers of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association, (b) All natives who may be brought up for hospital treatment are examined by the medical officers of the mines concerned, (c) All natives who may be repatriated on account of illness are again examined by the Government Medical Officers prior to their departure. The question as to the adequacy or otherwise of the protective measures which are being taken in regard to the health of natives is one which is at present under investigation by Mr. Buckle. The Government will be in a position to judge as to this when his report has been furnished. (2) Compensation paid to native labourers disabled by phthisis during the year 1913: Partial disablement, 83 cases, compensation £1,344; total disablement, 184 cases, compensation £5,869; total, £7,213.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Why, in view of the fact that the Bethal-Volksrust projected line has been surveyed, that the Resident Engineer (Mr. Whitehouse) is on the spot, and that excavations have been and are proceeding, men who apply at the Railway Offices, Johannesburg, for employment on construction work are informed that there is no work for them; (2) whether he will endeavour to reduce the number of unemployed by proceeding with the construction of this line at the earliest possible moment; and (3) when he purposes proceeding with the railway construction programme already sanctioned by this House?

(1) The actual construction work on Bethal-Volksrust line has not been commenced, as the question of land expropriation has not yet been definitely arranged in terms of section 1, sub section 1, of Act 23 of 1913. Authority has, however, been given to employ local men who are out of work, and to transfer certain white labourers from the Tzaneen extension, owing to the prevalence of malaria fever in that district. These two sources will provide all the labour required until a proper start can be made with the work. (2) Construction work proper will be commenced at the earliest possible date. (3) The lines authorised under Act 23 of 1913 are being proceeded with. In almost every case the surveys have been completed. Several of the lines or sections thereof have also been staked out, and actual construction work is being taken in hand as soon as the terms of section 1 of the Act are complied with.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries: (1) How many white men have left the Witwatersrand for oversea destinations since the end of January to date; and (2) how many, and what are the names of, white workers who have been discharged from, or left, or failed to be re-employed on, the mines of the Witwatersrand since the conclusion of the late strike, particularised as to trade or occupation, and mines hitherto employing them ?

(1) The number of white mine employees who have gone to Europe since the end of January, including women and children, is about 250, and to Australia about 220. These figures are approximate only. (2) The number of white worker's employed on the 14th February on the mines less than those employed on 31st December, before the strike, is 1,168. I have no means of giving, the further details asked for by the hon. member.

asked the Minister of Justice whether any information has been sent to England by any official of the Government as to the past history of the nine men deported on the S.S. Umgeni; if so, by whom and by whose authority, and will he lay a copy of the same on the Table of the House ?

No; as far as I am aware, no information was sent to England by any official of the Government as to the past history of the nine men deported on the S.S. Umgeni.

asked, the Minister of Railways and Harbours if he will endeavour to anticipate rolling stock requirements for January, 1916, onwards, with a view to starting the manufacture thereof immediately, so that the work need not be done abroad, the number of unemployed may be largely reduced, and a threatened efflux of skilled mechanics prevented?

Since Union as many coaches and wagons have been constructed in the Administration's workshops as the accommodation and equipment of the shops would permit, without interfering with the expeditious handling of repair work. This policy will be continued; but it is impossible to anticipate requirements too far in advance! The demand for additional rolling stock—except so far as ordinary replacements are concerned—is governed entirely by the traffic offering, and in view of the large capital outlay which new rolling stock entails and past experience of fluctuations in trade, it is not desirable, in the interests of the country, to increase the plant beyond normal requirements. The unprecedented development in traffic after Union, and the fact that orders for new stock had for some time previously been curtailed by the different Provinces, were accountable for the large orders for rolling stock placed at Union and since that date, and for the extreme urgency of the orders which necessitated certain contracts being placed oversea. Unless the traffic continues to develop at the same rapid rate, the proportion of oversea to South African built stock should steadily decrease, provided: (1) That the Administration is not hampered in its endeavour to improve the efficiency and the output of the Union workshops; and (2) that there is an indication (a) that the work can be efficiently performed at a reasonable cost in comparison with oversea quotations; and (b) that the work can be undertaken with reasonable expedition and will not be subjected to constant interruption and delay through strikes and industrial disturbances. The needs of the community must be provided for, and while there is every desire on the part of the Government and the Administration to do what is possible to build the stock in South Africa, the development of the country cannot be retarded for want of carriages and wagons if—as has been the case during the last few years—the local workshops are unable to cope with the work with sufficient expedition to meet public requirements.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Is it a fact that instructions were issued at the beginning of February to all heads of departments that no men were to be taken on for a period of three weeks; (2) if so, at whose instructions was such order issued, and with what object; and (3) whether, in view of the very large number of unemployed, he will at once give instructions to the various departmental heads to employ as many men as possible?

(1) The reply to this question is in the negative, so that question number 2 falls to the ground; (3) it is not proposed “to employ more men than are reasonably required for the efficient working of the railways.

asked the Minister of Defence whether, in view of the fact that all those charged) before the recent Court Martial, in connection with the possession and use of explosives, were either acquitted or discharged, he will state the nature of the evidence underlying the list of cases of the use of explosives during the strike?

The fact that four persons tried by Court Martial were either acquitted or discharged has nothing to do with the circumstances of the attempts to commit outrages tabulated in the return laid before the House on Monday, the 9th instant. The circumstances of each item on that return are briefly described in the return itself, and there can be no question that those facts are correct and can be substantiated most fully. The return does not give any particulars as to the perpetrators of the outrages or attempted outrages. The police have already obtained evidence in several cases as to the perpetrators, and are still endeavouring in other cases to trace these outrages to the persons who committed or attempted to commit them.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he has made an inquiry, in fulfillment of the promise given last session, into the building of covered railway trucks for the conveyance of sheep, and, if so, what has been the result, and does he intend to cause such trucks to be built?

If this question is intended to refer to double-decked sheep trucks, of which mention was made in the House last session, the consensus of opinion amongst railway officers is opposed to the introduction of this type of truck. Apart from technical objections, such vehicles would not be suitable for other classes of traffic. The trucks would return empty, whereas at present they return with loads. In Australia, where double-decked trucks are in use, the mileage haul of sheep traffic is short, whereas in this country the sheep are carried for long distances by rail. An experiment was made with several of these double-decked trucks by the Cape Railways a number of years ago, but they were not a success and were abandoned. They were not popular either with the traders or with the railway officials, and they were very seldom used. Sheep are at present conveyed in covered cattle trucks, of which there are 331 bogies and 2,173-shorts in traffic and 500 shorts in course of erection. There are, of course, 3,992 open sheep trucks in use for sheep traffic.

asked the Minister of Defence: (1) Whether he is aware that under Martial Law regulations the Provincial Council candidates on the Witwatersrand are not allowed to hold open-air meetings; (2) whether he will give instructions withdrawing this prohibition; (3) what are approximately the numbers of the armed forces of rebels who are or were at any time in the field necessitating the continuance of Martial Law in the various districts in which it still prevails; and (4) will he inform the House as to the Government’s reasons for maintaining Martial Law and their intentions as to the date of its withdrawal?

(1) and (2) The reply given in this House on Thursday last to the hon. member for Jeppe indicates clearly what instructions the Government has issued on the subject of public meetings. For the present it is not proposed to modify the sense of those instructions. (3) I have no information which I could give the hon. member. (4) Clause 1 of the Bill how before this House contains provision for the withdrawal of the Proclamation. It will be so amended that Martial Law will be withdrawn ipso facto by the coming into force of the Indemnity Bill.

said that he did not quite follow the last portion of the reply.

The Bill will be so amended that Martial Law will be withdrawn ipso facto by the passing of the Bill.

Am 1 to understand that this Bill will be amended by Parliament on the Minister’s authority?

A proposal will be made to that effect.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: What amount was spent during the year 1913 on tobacco experimental farms in the Orange Free State Province?

No Tobacco Experimental Station has yet been established in the Orange Free State. One of the recently returned students from America has been appointed as itinerant instructor in tobacco growing in that Province, and he is arranging to conduct experiments at various centres with a view to ascertaining the most suitable site for a station or stations. The tobacco warehouse expert, formerly stationed at Rustenburg, was transferred to Vredefort some six months back to assist farmers in the preparation of their tobacco for market, and if possible to aid in the establishment of a co-operative society for the handling and disposal of tobacco. Up to the present time, £500 has been expended out of the £750 provided on the Estimates for tobacco work in the Grange Free State.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether two railway servants named Weller and Townsend, working in the Port Elizabeth district, have recently been retrenched; (2) what was the length of service of these men; (3) whether it is a fact that Weller had only a further three-months and five days to serve to qualify for pension at the age limit, and Townsend two years; and (4) what is the reason for these retrenchments, and what amounts do these men lose in pensions owing to their premature retirement?

(1) Reply is in affirmative. (2) Weller, 16½ years; Townsend, 17’ years. (3) Reply is in affirmative so far as Weller is concerned. Townsend had only two years to serve before reaching the age limit, but he would not have been entitled:, to a pension. Weller is entitled to a pension, which is not affected to any appreciable extent through his retirement before attaining the age limit. Townsend is entitled to a gratuity only, not having paid, in sufficient arrear contributions to the superannuation fund to enable him to qualify for pension, although he had an opportunity of doing so. (4) These men were redundant at Port Elizabeth Harbour, arid could not be placed elsewhere.

asked the Minister of Mines and Industries whether it is the intention of the Government, to proceed with legislation this, session dealing with factories and the appointment of Wages Boards?:

The question as to what legislation will be introduced on these subjects is under consideration.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) How many persons—(a) Europeans, (b) Asiatics, (c) others —have been deported under the Immigrants’ Regulation Act, 1913; (2) how many of these, respectively, had dependents in this country; (3) what towns were these persons sent from, and from what ports were they deported; and (4) what provision, if any, was made for the wives and families either to go with or follow the deportees?

I shall endeavour to obtain the information for which the hon. member asks.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What proportion and number of railway strikers were subject to 24 hours’ notice; (21 what proportion and number of them gave that notice before quitting work; and (3) whether those who gave the legal notice are to be deemed strikers in the legal sense, so as to forfeit their superannuation rights ?

asked that the question be allowed to stand over.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether he is aware that the electors of Liesbeek Division are unrepresented in this House, and if so, what is the cause of the delay in fixing the date for nomination ?

The date for the nomination of candidates for the vacancy existing in this constituency will be notified by Proclamation in the next “Government Gazette.”

asked the Minister of the Interior whether he will relax the Press censorship in Natal and allow full reports of the debates in this House on the Indemnity and Undesirables Special Deportation Bill to be published in the local Press?

The answer given to question No. 54 on to-day’s order paper furnishes a reply to this question. There is, and since the 1st of this month has been, no Press censorship.

said that a question had been put to him last week by the hon. member for Durban, Point, in regard to statements in a speech made by Colonel Greene in Natal recently. It was not necessary for him to refer to the curious ethics of a situation which enabled a gentleman who had been for three and a half years a member of a Government office, and had thus obtained most intimate and confidential information in regard to the working of the railway, immediately on resigning office to make use of information so obtained for the purpose of starting a political crusade. (Hear, hear.) He would leave that alone. But to come to the specific charges made by Colonel Greene, the House would pardon him if he replied to them fully, because he thought that the matter was of great importance to the House, and it was desirable that the facts, from the point of view of the Railway Administration, should be made public.

The Minister went on to say: The first statement made by Col. Greene is that “rates were fixed without any reference to the Board.” Now, Sir, myself, the members of the Board, and the General Manager are all prepared to say that this is wholly incorrect. All rates or alterations in rates were and are submitted to the Board before their introduction. On the next point to which Col. Greene refers it is stated that after a good deal of trifling it was decided to make Maritzburg a distributing centre, and he believed it was a good thing for Maritzburg’s trade. He worked for it and got it. If Col. Greene is correctly reported, he contradicts himself in the above. He says Maritzburg “got it,” i.e. became a distributing centre, and later on he says “Maritzburg had not got it.” The position is that Maritzburg was a “distributing centre ” before Union, and has remained so ever since. There has never been any question concerning its status as such, and consequently there has been no “fighting,” either much or little. As a distributing centre, Maritzburg is afforded the same opportunities as other distributing centres in the Union, i.e., its merchants are able to obtain their goods from the coast and reforward them from Maritzburg to other country stations on precisely the same terms as apply to other distributing centres.

moved for leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the enfranchisement of women.

seconded. The motion was agreed to.

moved that the Bill be read a first time.

The motion was negatived.

called for a division, which was taken with the following result:

Ayes—42.

Baxter, William Duncan

Becker, Heinrich Christian

Berry, William Bisset

Brown, Daniel Maclaren

Burton, Henry

Chaplin, Francis Drummond Percy

Clayton, Walter Frederick

De Waal, Hendrik

De Wet, Nicolaus Jacobus

Fawcus, Alfred

Griffin, William Henry

Henderson, James

Hunter, David

Jagger, John William

Juta, Henry Hubert

Krige, Christman Joel

Lemmer, Lodewyk Arnoldus Slabbert

Leuchars, George

MacNeillie, James Campbell

Madeley, Walter Bayley

Malan, Francois Stephanus

Mentz, Hendrik

Neser, Johannes Adriaan

Orr, Thomas

Robinson, Charles Phineas

Rockey, Willie

Runciman, William

Searle, James

Silburn, Percy Arthur

Smartt, Thomas William

Smuts, Jan Christiaan

Smuts, Tobias

Theron, Hendrick Schalk

Van der Riet, Frederick John W.

Van Heerden, Hercules Christian

Walton, Edgar Harris

Watkins, Arnold Hirst

Watt, Thomas

Wessels, Daniel Hendrik Willem

Woolls-Sampson, Aubrey

Patrick Duncan and H. A. Wyndham tellers.

Noes—-43.

Alberts, Johannes Joachim

Bekker, Stephanus

Bezuidenhout, Willem Wouter Jacobus J

Crewe, Charles Preston

Cronje, Frederik Reinhardt

De Beer, Michiel Johannes

De Jager, Andries Lourens

Du Toit, Gert Johan Wilhelm

Geldenhuys, Lourens

Grobler, Evert Nicolaas

Henwood, Charlie

Joubert, Christiaan Johannes Jacobus

Keyter, Jan Gerhard

King, John Gavin

Kuhn, Pieter Gysbert

Langerman, Jan Willem Stuckeris

Maasdorp, Gysbert Henry

Marais, Johannes Henoch

Marais, Pieter Gerhardus

Neethling, Andrew Murray

Nicholson, Richard Granville

Oosthuisen, Ockert Almero

Rademeyer, Jacobus Michael

Reynolds, Frank Umhlali

Schoeman, Johannes Hendrik

Serfontein, Hendrik Philippus

Serfontein, Nicolaas Wilhelmus

Steyl, Johannes Petrus Gerhardus

Steytler, George Louis

Theron, Petrus Jacobus George

Van der Merwe, Johannes Adolph Pt.

Van der Walt, Jacobus

Van Eeden, Jacobus Willem

Van Niekerk, Christian Andries

Venter, Jan Abraham

Vermaas, Hendrik Cornelius Wilhelmus

Vintcent, Alwyn Ignatius

Wessels, Johannes Hendricus Brand

Whitaker, George

Wilcocks, Carl Theodorus Muller

Wiltshire, Henry

Charles G. Fichardt and P. G. W. Grobler, tellers.

The motion for the first reading of the Bill was accordingly negatived.

moved that the Minister of Justice, Mr. Merriman, Sir David Hunter, Mr. Duncan, and the mover be members of the Select Committee on Amendment of South Africa Act.

The motion was agreed to.

That the reservation or retention of the mineral rights by the seller should not be regarded as an obstacle in the purchase of land by the Government for the purpose laid down in section 11 of the Land Settlement Act, 1912.

The mover said it would be superfluous to say much about the motion, as its fairness and reasonableness were obvious. In the Transvaal there were only two laws under which they could get land—namely, the Crown Lands Disposal Ordinance of 1902 and the Crown Lands Settlements Act of 1912. The owners of the land were the Government, the companies, and private owners. It was known that the companies owned one-eighth of the land in the Transvaal, their farms being situated in Zoutpansberg, Waterberg, Rustenburg, and Marico. Clause 11 of the Crown Lands Settlement Act provided that if a person could produce one-fifth of the purchase price of a farm, the Government might then buy the farm for that person. The companies were willing to sell their land at a reasonable price, but with the mineral rights reserved. There was nothing in the Act of 1912, so far as he knew, which prevented the Government from buying ground for others where the mineral rights were reserved. He knew many persons who could pay a fifth, a fourth, or a third of the purchase price of a farm. They applied to the Government to purchase such a farm, but the Government refused because the mineral rights were withheld. Seeing that the buyers would have to pay the full purchase price, he thought that was unfair. Then if ground was bought which included the mineral rights, the Government confiscated those rights. In that way they made a profit out of the transaction. The private owner was not disposed to sell his land, because he was waiting for a better price. It was only possible, therefore, to buy from the companies, and then only without the mineral rights. So that, according to clause 11 of the Act of 1912 those who wanted to buy land could not be helped by the Government. It was true that the Government had Crown lands available. Anyone who wished to buy land with the help of the Government went to inspect the farm, and applied then to the Government to make the farm available, and to publish it for two months in the “Gazette.” There followed, perhaps, forty or fifty applications. Those were sifted out, and a ballot followed amongst say twenty of those applicants. The buyer had in that way nineteen chances to one against getting hold of the farm. The result of that was that some of those persons had already been wandering about from place to place for two or three years, carrying with them their wagons, tents, and cattle, and hiring the land. Then the children were, of course, unable to go to school, and the available cash was exhausted. In the end those people had to abandon all hope of becoming owners of any land. They sold their wagons and cattle, settled down in one of the big towns without any trade or occupation at their command, and degenerated into poor whites. He knew many such people who owned from £.300 to £700 in cash, together with a wagon and oxen and from 40 to 140 cattle. They wanted to farm with cattle. It was to be expected that South Africa would ultimately export cattle to Europe, and cattle breeding ought therefore to be encouraged. The land companies’ farms were very suitable for the purpose of cattle breeding, but as a result of the refusal of the Government to buy those farms, they remained unoccupied and unworked. The object of clause 11 of the Act of 1912 was in that way defeated. The ‘Government held themselves too strictly to the terms of clause 31 of the Act, which provided that the Government should reserve the mineral rights, and it was said that they could not reserve such rights if there were none. He hoped the Government would cease to interpret the Act in that way. People with whom he was acquainted could, with the sale price of their Cattle and wagon, put up the price required for the farm without the help of the Government, but in that case the farm would be useless to them, as they would not be in a position to undertake either cattle breeding or agriculture.

supported the motion, and said that the facts stated by the mover were very much to the point. In the Zoutpansberg there were large tracts of land which remained unworked, and some of the best of them had been unworked for years. The only ground which remained at the disposal of the department was ground on which it was not possible straightaway to get a living. There were, however, at present a good many farms for sale belonging to the land companies, and why did they not sell them? The Minister of Native Affairs would know the reason well enough. The prices were reasonable. Clauses 10 and 11 had already caused a good deal of annoyance, but clause 51 was the most troublesome. He and other lawyers had pointed out these things before, but hon. members, who were supposed to be intelligent, had failed to support him. Now they were experiencing the discomfort which they caused. It was quite true that the land companies were withholding the mineral rights, but the Government also were too greedy. Why, he would ask, must the Government make a profit out of the buying of these farms? Why must the mineral rights fall into the hands of the Government? The district was rich in minerals, and the private owners naturally retained the mineral rights there. Clause 11 ought to be amended. When the department was satisfied that the reservation of the mineral rights did not diminish the security of the purchase price, then they ought to help in purchasing the land.

also supported the motion When the Act was under discussion in the House he had moved an amendment to clause 31, but the Government refused to accept it, and refused to help anybody to purchase a piece of ground the mineral rights of which were reserved. Why was that stipulation made? If the mineral rights were withheld, the selling price was usually lower. But the department refused all such applications, and that was not fair. The Minister should so amend the Act that clause 31 was not applicable to persons who bought land under clause 11, and the department could then make regulations in order to protect themselves. If the deed of sale contained reasonable conditions in regard to the mineral rights, the department ought to allow the purchase of the farm. The question was of the greatest interest for the people of the country and the settlements, and it was so easy to remove the difficulty that, it could very well be done during the present session of Parliament.

who had seconded the motion, said it was now quite clear that it would be agreed to. The settlers were experiencing different troubles. Marico, Rustenburg, Waterberg, etc., were very suitable for cattle breeding, and the man who farmed with cattle attached no value to mineral rights. The Government might be quite easy in buying such farms. Whenever a farm without mineral rights was available for purchase, there were fifty or sixty applications for it. The result was that some of the applicants had to wander about for years. That was never the intention of Parliament, and he hoped the Minister would so amend the Act that the department would cease to be prohibited in such cases from buying the land.

said he was surprised to hear what position the Minister of Lands had taken up in regard to this Bill. In going through the Bill he could not find anything to prevent the Government from purchasing land as provided under section 11 of the Act. If the Lands Department took up the position that under section 31 they could not buy land under section 11 where rights were reserved, then, to his mind, they were putting a strained interpretation upon section 31. If there was doubt, he hoped that his hon. friend would introduce an amending Bill, and with the assistance of the Land Department all these large areas of land that were not beneficially occupied would pass into the hands of individual purchasers.

said that the motion had his heartiest support, but he would like to see it go further, and he would move the insertion of the words “ten and” after section, because he did not see why the Minister should not acquire land under section 10. In the Northern Transvaal they had been dealing with surface rights apart from mineral rights; the old system of hanging up the land on the chance of finding minerals had been the curse of the Transvaal. There was no obstacle under section 31 of the Land Settlement Act, and he would also draw the Minister’s attention to section 23 of the Land Bank Act, which seemed to lay down that pastoral and agricultural rights were taken into consideration. He pointed to the example of the Lake Chrissie Settlement, which he thought might be followed where the company had sold the surface rights and retained the mineral rights. The district had gone forward enormously in consequence. They had had many excuses from time to time, and he thought it was time that something was done.

said he was surprised at the hon. member for Waterberg proposing that they should so lightly deviate from the terms of a law which had been duly passed. The Government were equally bound by that law. The latter had consulted their legal advisers, and in their opinion wherever there was mention of Crown lands the mineral rights were reserved. It followed, therefore, that clauses 10 and 11 came under clauses 31, 32, and 33 of the Grown Lands Settlement Act. If the Government bought such land, and minerals were afterwards found on it, the owner was bound to hand back a portion or in some cases the whole of the ground, and the Government had to pay compensation for it. The speaker had, however, discussed the matter with the Minister, and was able to give the House the assurance that an amendment in the Act was necessary. When a third party owned the mineral rights they had still more difficulties, and for such cases also it would be necessary to make amendments. It had been found that He amount of money which had been placed by Parliament at the disposal of the Land Bank was very far from sufficient to meet all demands, and a much larger amount would have to be provided. Some references had been made to the subject of balloting, but clauses 10 and 11 had nothing to do with that, and said nothing about it. The position often was that a number of applications came in for the same piece of ground, and then what were they to do? What else could they do but leave the matter to be decided by ballot? He had hoped that those who criticised that method would have suggested a better one. He advised the people not to apply for one specified piece of land. In answer to the hon. member for Turffontein, the Minister concluded that where the prospective owner was able to pay one-fifth of the purchase price, such amendments would be made in the law as would enable the Government to buy even if the mineral rights were reserved.

said that if people in the Free State or the Cape wanted to get one or other of the advertised farms, they must be continually travelling in order to inspect the farms, and that was expensive. In that way the capital tended to disappear. He thought that the person who first drew the Government’s attention to a particular farm should have the first chance. Why should he have to stand equal with the others? Was he not first? The Minister should amend the Act in that direction as well as in the others mentioned. Of course, the Government would have to be on its guard against speculation, though as a matter of fact they were so afraid of that that they were afraid of doing anything at all. They should encourage, the settlement of the country districts as much as possible, to the great advantage of the whole country and the people. The interests of agriculture should not be allowed to suffer owing to the existence of mineral rights.

explained that the last speaker was incorrect in his deductions. If a person was the first to arrive at a piece of land after it had been advertised, and he were given a preference over those who lived further away, it would surely be extremely unfair to those others.

said he was very much surprised at the attitude taken up on that matter by the hon. Minister. Surely it was not the business of the Government to prevent speculation. In their eagerness to prevent a little speculation in land the Government was going to do a great deal of damage to the agricultural development of South Africa. That, he thought, was an extraordinary attitude for the Government to take up. Surely the right to buy minerals should be divorced from the right to farm the surface. The great point was that the Government would not recognise the principle brought forward in that motion. It was only another case of the Government standing in the way of the land being beneficially used. He must say that the action of the. Government in South Africa seemed very often to stand in the way, even in the matter of facilitating the transfer of land. The Government was always an obstacle in the transfer of land from one person to another by the imposition of a high transfer duty. In conclusion, the hon. member said he partly agreed with the view of the mover of the motion.

endorsed the remarks which had been made by the Minister. In Zoutpansberg and Waterberg there were, he said, thousands of morgen of land which were not being worked, and the ground was rich in minerals. There were, too, thousands of people who were eagerly looking for ground, and the Government should put those people in a position to get hold of it. The land was good for agriculture and for cattle breeding, and also for the growing of oranges. Let them get the land put into use. The system of making applications for land was however, too circumlocutory, and whilst the people concerned had to travel great distances in order to inspect the farms, they usually finished up without getting one after all. The Government could give a description of the farm, and then it would be unnecessary for the applicants to go and see it. At present the farms were being speculated with. That was in particular the case with a farm on the Springbokvlakte.

said he had done his very best last year to get this difficulty removed. So far as the question of balloting was concerned, it was sufficient to point out that in that way some people would never be helped at all. Still, he felt bound to point out that, when the applicants were numerous, he could not see what other arrangement could be made. The hon. member for Umlazi had charged the Minister with being over alarmed on the subject of possible speculation, but the Minister had explained that it was his predecessor who was apprehensive about it. He thought the Government would have done better by buying the land without the mineral rights, in which case they would have been the owners of much more ground for the money they had expended. The Minister had, however, expressed his willingness to meet him (the speaker) on the subject and he would be willing to withdraw the motion.

The amendment was agreed to.

The motion as amended was agreed to.

said that he would suggest that the purely formal motions, such as Nos. 8, 12. 13, etc., should be taken first.

This was agreed to.

on behalf of Sir David Hunter, moved: That the petition from Edith F. Maggs, of Zululand, who was engaged in teaching in a Government-aided school in Natal for five years, but who forfeited her pension rights through failing to register her name in accordance with the provisions of Act No. 31 of 1910 (Natal), praying for consideration and relief, presented to this House on May 28, 1913, be laid upon the Table, and, if agreed to, that it be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

This was agreed to.

stated that the petition was upon the Table.

on behalf of Mr. C. H. Haggar, moved: That the petition from T. Snider, a constable in the South African Police, Krugersdorp district, praying for the recognition of his services in the Cape Police for pension purposes, presented to this House on the 12th inst., be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

This was agreed to.

That the petition from T. E. Welsh, formerly District Locomotive Foreman, South African Railways, at Queen’s Town, who, with the exception of a break in his service in 1883, has served in the Railway Department continuously since 1881, and has contributed to the pension fund since 1884, praying that his services during the period he did not contribute to the pension fund may be taken into consideration in the calculation of his pension, or for other relief, presented to this House on the 2nd June, 1913, be laid upon the Table of the House, and, if agreed to, that it be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

This was agreed to.

stated that the petition was upon the Table.

That the petition from J. H. Louwrens, of Humansdorp, formerly Senior Sheep Inspector, who has served continuously under the Governments of the Cape of Good Hope and the Union for over 25 years, praying that on his retirement be may be granted a pension, or for other relief, presented to this House on the 3rd June, 1913, be laid upon the Table of the House, and, if agreed to, that it be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

This was agreed to.

stated that the petition was upon the Table.

That the question of whether notices of questions should be handed to the Clerk of the House in writing, and that they be not read to the House, be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Rules and Orders.

This was agreed to.

That all papers and correspondence regarding the last Defence Force Saddlery contract be laid on the Table of the House.

This was agreed to.

laid upon the Table return in compliance with the resolution just adopted.

That in view of the depreciation in value of the properties held under mortgage by the Public Debt Commissioners, a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the circumstances, together with the whole system and conditions of valuation, Government, municipal and private generally, throughout the Union; the committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers and to consist of nine members.

said he did not think that that motion could be accepted. So far as that part of the motion was concerned which dealt with depreciation, there was no necessity for an inquiry at all, and they knew that in boom times advances had been made from the public funds on property which turned out to be too high, and he did not think that any kind of inquiry would elucidate the position more than they knew it to-day. As to the second part of the motion, it appeared that the hon. member was not aware that such an inquiry as that had just been held by the Provincial Authorities of the Cape Province. The report of the Commission, which was a very valuable one—(hear, hear) —had been published in the “Provincial Gazette ” of January the 9th. It dealt not only exhaustively with the systems of valuation in the Cape Province, but all over South Africa, and with the systems in vogue all over the world. If the hon. member would study the report, he would find as full information as they could give in the House. In view of that information, he would ask the hon. member to withdraw his motion.

said that the investigation was very necessary indeed. The Minister had said that “they” —he presumed that he meant the Government—knew all about the subject. All the circumstances that the Government knew anything about were the circumstances of the depreciation, and they did not know anything apparently about valuation, and the point was whether the correct valuation had been made in the first instance when these sums of money had been advanced. The hon. member referred to a number of properties in Johannesburg having been foreclosed. He went on to say that before, they had fallen into the clutches of the Treasury, well he would not say “clutches,” because members on the cross-benches favoured property being acquired by the State—Burmester’s were paying rates to the Johannesburg Town Council, and since then they had not, and that gave him the impression that that particular property had not been valued at its true value, and that the sum of money advanced upon it greatly exceeded its correct valuation, with the result that the Minister had had to refuse to pay rates and recoup himself somewhat for the over-advances. Valuation required very close investigation, especially municipalities, because loans were raised for any sort of fancy scheme which the Council might want to bring in at any particular moment, and these loans were based on the valuation. Valuation was a scientific business, and not a matter to be done by a few clerks. He hoped that the Minister, even if he did not see clear to agree to the appointment of a Select Committee, would inquire closely into the valuations of the Union, particularly municipal valuations. He added that he was prepared to withdraw the motion.

The motion was withdrawn.

That the petition from F. King, chairman, and others, members, of the Victoria East School Board, drawing attention to the low salaries paid to teachers in the Cape Province, and praying that the House may take their case into consideration and grant such relief as it may deem fit, presented to this House on the 4th inst., be referred to Government for consideration.

said he did not object to the motion, but he would like to point out that this was a matter which did not fall within the province of this House. It was really a Provincial Council matter, and he hoped that hon. members would not encourage School Boards and others to come with such petitions to this House. (Hear, hear.) He accepted the motion, because he had no objection to utilising his department for the purpose of sending on the petition to the Provincial Council, although such a course led to unnecessary overlapping and duplication of work.

The motion was agreed to.

That the petition from H. Coetzee, chairman and others, members, of the Holpan School Committee, drawing attention to the low salaries paid to teachers in the Cape Province, and praying that the House may take their case into consideration and grant such relief as it may deem fit, presented to this House on the 6th inst., be referred to the Government for consideration.

The motion was agreed to.

on behalf of Mr. H. W. Sampson (Commissioner street), moved for a return showing: (1) The amount paid during 1915 to the respective Attorneys-General in the Union, in the way of fees or other emoluments, in addition to their fixed salaries; (2) the amounts paid, during a similar period, to advocates for prosecuting on behalf of the Crown and for defending cases pro Deo, specifying recipients and sum received, including travelling or other allowances; and (3) the names of advocates employed by the Government, otherwise than as above mentioned, during 1913, with the amounts paid to them respectively for services rendered.

The motion was agreed to.

laid the return on the Table.

That the petition of S. A. Bornman and 101 others, voters in the districts of Boshof and Hoopstad, praying for the construction of a bridge across the Vaal River at Christiana, presented to the House on the 12th inst., be referred to the Government for consideration.

The mover said he had brought forward a similar motion last year, but the Government had not given effect to it. For the greater part of the year the Vaal (River was full. The railway ran along the Transvaal side of the river, and the inhabitants of Boshof and Hoopstaad were thus unable to make use of the railway. The result was that they had often to carry heavy loads along bad roads for long distances. The Minister should listen to the complaints which came before the House year after year. He should visit the district, and he would see that the foregoing was no exaggeration.

The motion was agreed to.

said he understood that the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, did not agree with the policy which had been adopted of recent years of referring the Estimates to the Public Accounts Committee for criticism. He (the Minister) to a certain extent shared the opinion of the hon. member. He thought, to a large extent, functions like these fell outside the scope of the Public Accounts Committee, and now, since this motion had been put on the paper, they had settled the personnel of the Public Accounts Committee, and the Minister of Finance no longer figured on that committee as its Chairman, and, therefore, the reason for not referring the criticism of the Estimates to the Public Accounts Committee became all the stronger. The tendency might be that the Government might shelter itself behind the Public Accounts Committee. There was a great duty and responsibility resting on the Government to see that the Estimates were cut down to the absolutely necessary minimum. Under these circumstances, he thought that with the change now made in the personnel of the Public Accounts Committee there was good ground for reverting to the practice which existed before and for confining the functions of the Public Accounts Committee to criticism of the public accounts, and he, therefore, proposed to withdraw this motion.

said he was sorry that the Minister had changed his mind on this matter. It was quite true that since Union the suggestions made by the committee had not resulted in much economy; because in many cases in the committee itself the Government had been too strong—

I must point out to the hon. member that the motion has not been moved. The Minister made a speech without moving it. (Laughter.) There is nothing before the House.

The motion was withdrawn.

said that, on behalf of the Minister of Railways and Harbours, he wished to move the second part of this motion, referring to the Public Accounts Committee, the accounts of the Railways and Harbours and the Assistant Controller and Auditor-General’s Report thereon. For the reasons he had stated, he did not intend to move the first part of the motion in regard to the Estimates of the Railways and Harbours.

The motion was agreed to, with the deletion of sub-section (1).

moved the second reading of the Removal of Restrictions Under Wills Bill.

said that after the discussions which they had last year it was not necessary for him to say very much. If hon. members would read the report of the Select Committee they would see that most lawyers agreed with the principle of the Bill, and a large number of petitions had also been received in its support. It was well known that as a result of fidei commis provisions there were farms which belonged to many owners, who, however, had no power to sell. He knew of one farm which belonged to about a hundred people. None of them were able to make a living on the farm, and the Land Bank would not advance money on it. The only way at present whereby a fidei commis provision could be destroyed was by Act of Parliament. That was a very expensive business, nor was Parliament, in his view, the most suitable body to judge in such cases. It was the object of the Bill to entrust the decision in such cases to three Judges of the High Court, who would call for a report from the Orphan Master. That would give sufficient safety. Clause 2 of the Bill gave the Court the power to amend a fidei commis without entirely abolishing it. He appealed to the hon. members who supported him last year to vote for the second reading. There was nothing risky in the Bill. It erred rather on the side of over-prudence.

said that the hon. member for Rusten burg had gone a step further than he had done last year, and wanted to give the Courts the power to remove restrictions that had been imposed by will. He evidently had in view a certain case in Rustenburg, and in order to meet this case, he wanted to introduce this alteration. He (the speaker) hoped that the House would give this Bill very careful consideration, because it attempted to establish a very dangerous thing. The argument had been raised that the Court would only remove restrictions after it had gone very carefully into the circumstances, but he pointed out that a Court would not be able in all cases to gauge the reasons for the restrictions imposed by testators. If this were passed, the Courts would be flooded with applications from heirs for the removal of restrictions. It might even happen that a testator would not leave an inheritance. He thought it unwise for private members to attempt to make alterations of the general law, because if there was any amendment necessary it was the duty of the Minister of Justice to remedy any defect. He moved that the Bill be read that day six months.

seconded the amendment.

said he did not much like changes in the common law, which rested on the experience of centuries. That was not to say that no changes could be made which were improvements. The principle of the Bill was good, and he should vote for it. His experience as an advocate had taught him that people were sometimes very fond of using fine words in their wills, without reflecting what the results of their use might be. He knew the case of one man who so liked the words “fidei commis” that he set that limitation on his ground during his own lifetime, and when he afterwards wanted to set it aside he found it was not such an easy matter, and deeply regretted what he had done. Why should a man want to lay down conditions for a distant posterity? Posterity should be left to look after itself. In some cases of fidei commis on farms, they were so subdivided that nobody could get a living out of them, and their value actually disappeared. It was at present possible to apply to Parliament for the removal of such a restriction, but that was a costly procedure. Opportunity should be afforded to such people to apply to the Court. The Bill was really too safe, and it appeared to him that it would be only a dummy Act (“een wassen neus”) owing to the excess of precautionary provisions. The case would have to be a very strong one indeed which would persuade the Court, in view of all those provisions, to order an amendment to a will. They spoke of the rights of minors, but it was the duty of the Court to protect those rights. Only where the Court was persuaded of the desirability that the terms of a will should be changed would it order that to be done. The hon. member for Bechuanaland had stated that the Court could never examine into the question of the testator’s intentions. But how was it possible for a lawyer to say such a thing as that? The hon. member should have been one of the first to support the Bill. They need not be alarmed for the safety of the sacred rights of the testator, seeing that the Bill required the Court to call for a report from the Orphan Master, but the Court ought also to have the power to make inquiry in other directions. He intended to support the Bill.

said there was no doubt that everybody had experienced that, there were occasions when it was necessary that something should be done to remove certain restrictions under a will. When the matter was first brought forward he understood that the hon. member was going to deal with wills which created an entail to several generations, where land was put into so many parcels, and it was practically impossible to deal with it. With that principle he (the speaker) agreed absolutely, but he differed in toto with the provisions of that little Bill. As it existed, he was perfectly convinced— as the hon. Minister for Justice thought, but on different grounds—that it was going to be a dead letter. They would get a will which would create so much difficulty that they wanted to do away with a fidei commissum. They would throw it before a Court and ask them to remove it and do with it what they thought fit. But the Court would want to know several things. They would ask how were they to look after the interests of the various people concerned. Proceeding, the hon. member said that when he saw the provision last year—he did not blame the committee for one moment, they had not time to go into the matter, and did not go into it in the way they should have done—he took the trouble to go into Scottish legislation to see what they did in doing away with a fidei commissum. They began with one Act and passed on to another. There were many difficulties which were not foreseen, and they had to pass more legislation. He had made a synopsis which ran into three or four foolscap sheets; if he had had that with him he would have given the House the benefit, and would have asked the hon. Minister how he would have dealt with the various points. It was not impossible to deal with the matter, but it would require very serious consideration by a committee. They would certainly make a dead letter of it by asking the Court to do what they pleased. That would kill the very object wanted, for the first thing the Court would ask would be, What were they to do with it? Were they to do anything they pleased? That was not the policy of that House. That Bill did not deal only with a fidei commissum, but it went to a greater extent. It gave power to the Court to remove any restriction or modify it just as they pleased. He was not going to vote to put it into the power of the Court to remove or modify any restriction which a testator wished to impose, and he did not think the hon. member wished that. That was one reason why he thought the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee. In certain cases it was highly desirable that those entails should be removed, but there must be proper safeguards and proper rules and regulations which that House should lay down. He would move, therefore, that the order for the second reading of the Bill be discharged, and that the subject matter of the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, the names of which he would subsequently give notice for inquiry and report.

said the Bill was of a very far-reaching character, and the three lawyers who had spoken on it were not in agreement. The House had no right to interfere with the rights of parents to dispose of their properties as they thought fit. When a father was the owner of a farm he ought to have the right to do as he liked with it. If out of a household there happened to be one mischievous child who applied to the Court, then a valuable farm might be sold, and there were always people who were willing to meddle in deceased estates. An excellent farm might in such a case be sold for a trifle, and the children impoverished. He intended to support the motion of the hon. member for Bechuanaland.

supported the motion of the hon. member for Cape Town, Harbour (Sir H. H. Juta), as he could not agree with what had been said by the Minister of Justice. The Court did not provide a sufficient measure of safety in such cases, as witness a case which had come up in the Free State. It ought to be laid down in the Bill what restrictions it was competent for the Court to cancel. It should not be made easy to do this, for fear of impairing confidence in the inviolability of a will. He could not vote for the Bill, but would support the motion of the hon. member for Cape Town, Harbour.

accepted the amendment proposed by the hon. member for Cape Town Harbour (Sir H. Juta).

Sir H. H. Juta’s amendment was agreed to.

Then the hon. member (Sir H. H. Juta) will have to give notice of the number of the Select Committee, and the names.

The amendment moved by Mr. Wessels dropped.