from C. J. Pauw, principal of the Boys’ High School, Riversdale, praying for the condonation of a break in his service, or for other relief.

from the Rev. A. I. Steytler, Moderator of the Dutch Reformed Church, and 23 others, residents of Cape Town, praying that fruit shops in Cape Town may be closed on the Sabbath Day.

from J. Ntsiko, who was for 27 years employed as clerk and interpreter by the Governments of the Cape of Good Hope and the Union, and is now blind, praying for certain arrear salary and for an increase of pension, or for other relief.

from W. R. Myburgh, principal of the Vredenburg Public School, praying for the condonation of a break in his service, or for other relief.

from J. E. Chase, of Lusikisiki, formerly chief constable at Lusikisiki, who was retired as medically unfit after 24 years’ service, praying for an increase of pension, or for other relief.

brought up the report of the committee of the whole House on the first and second reports of the Select Committee on Waste Lands.

moved the adoption of the report.

The motion was agreed to.

laid on the Table a copy of the Cape Provincial Estimates.

read the following Message to the Senate:

The House of Assembly transmits to the Honourable the Senate the Bill to prohibit the use of certain substances in wine, spirits and vinegar, and to regulate in certain respects the manufacture and sale of wine, spirits and vinegar, in which the Honourable the Senate has made certain amendments in which amendments the House of Assembly has concurred except in the amendment in old clause 42 (new clause 381 to which the House of Assembly has also made a further amendment. The House of Assembly has also made a consequential amendment in clause 9. The House of Assembly desires the concurrence of the Honourable the Senate in these amendments which are shown in the accompanying copy of the Bill as follows: the words to be inserted are underlined and the words to be omitted are within brackets.

The message was approved.

said he regretted the inadequacy of the remuneration given to medical witnesses when attending Circuit Courts. That remuneration had been reduced, to one guinea per day, plus 4d. per mile for travelling expenses. Ho mentioned the case of a doctor who had to travel 180 miles to the town in which the Circuit Court was held, and was detained there seven days, his only remuneration being seven guineas, plus 4d. per mile travelling allowance, although he had had to have a driver and four mules.

called the Minister’s attention to the case of a man who was summoned to give evidence in a criminal case in Johannesburg. He said that this man had to travel from Kimberley in order to give evidence, and he received £2 5s. as a witness’ allowance, and was about £8 out of pocket. He also urged that the tariff of fees for jurors should also be raised. He pointed out that a man was taken from his work to do service for the State, and it was rather hard that he should have to do this at his own private expense rather than that of the State.

drew the Minister’s attention to a recent case in Johannesburg where a prisoner was tried on a charge for which, on conviction, sentence of death might be passed. This man was undefended, and was convicted. He hoped that the Government would make arrangements to settle the difficulty which had arisen between the Government and the Bar in regard to these cases.

said that the new tariff of fees for witnesses and jurors had only recently come into operation. The effect of the alteration was, in the main, that witnesses’ expenses in the Transvaal had been lowered, and in the Cape somewhat raised, but in Natal and the Free State they remained pretty much where they were before. He thought that next year he would be in a better position to see how the new tariff operated, and he would then look into it. He quite agreed that men who were summoned to assist in the administration of justice should he considered as far as possible, and that trials should not be delayed more than could be helped.

asked why ordinary tradesmen and farmers got less than doctors

said that the other day, when this debate was adjourned, he Minister was to make some statement in regard to barristers’ fees and expenses.

said he was happy to say that, in a large measure, there was no necessity to make that statement any longer, as they had now come to terms. (Hear, hear.)

said he had been asked to put a question with reference to a certain matter which pressed very hardly upon the legal profession of this country, viz., the extraordinary difference in licences and fees for admission to practice in the different Courts of the Union. An attorney of the Cape Colony could not proceed to practice in the Free State except he were mulcted in very heavy charges.

That is not germane to the vote.

I did not know where this could be brought up.

said he was aware of the differences. He thought it was a hardship, and one which should be remedied, and he hoped that before long it would be remedied.

said that there was a further difficulty, and until they got over that difficulty, the point the right hon. gentleman wished to be put right would not be put right.

ruled that this was out of order.

said that the point he raised as to a recent case in Johannesburg had not been answered by the Minister. He wished to ask whether arrangements had been made to prevent a recurrence of such a state of things in the future.

said he did all he possibly could to see that proper arrangements were made so that persons charged with the capital offence should be represented by counsel. He hoped such a case would not occur again.

complained of the inconvenience caused to witnesses and suitors owing to the continual adjournment of the cases in which they were concerned, and to the sending of cases from George to Oudtshoorn, and from there to Cape Town. The Minister should inquire into it.

speaking on behalf of the Eastern Province, urged that the present allowances for jurors who had to travel some distance to reach the Circuit Court were inadequate. He thought a greater distinction in regard to allowances should he made as between men who lived in a circuit town and men who had to travel to the circuit town and pay for their subsistence.

said that the Minister had made an important announcement of a change of policy. He understood that the Government were in favour of bringing about uniformity in licences. He hoped the Minister would make that apply to trading licences also.

ruled that that was not in order.

said that the allowance of four pence a mile paid for travelling expenses of jury men and witnesses was ridiculous in the Transkei.

drew attention to the way in which interpreting was done in some of the courts. It was of the utmost importance to prisoners that their cases should be properly interpreted. He thought that they should pay better salaries and get good men. Educated men who were properly fitted to carry out this duty would not accept the salaries that were now paid.

said that with regard to witnesses’ expenses, the new tariff had only just come into force, and he was understood to say that he did not think that anything could be done in that direction. With regard to the complaint of the hon. member for Oudtshoorn, he would see that it did not occur again. He agreed with the hon. member for Bloemfontein that it was most essential that they should have good interpreters, otherwise a gross wrong might be done. He believed there had been miscarriages of justice owing to this, and that was a state of things they must endeavour to prevent. The difficulty was to get good men qualified in both languages to undertake the work, and if they got these men they would have to pay larger salaries than they were voting at the present time. He would do what he could, hut he was not certain whether he could do very much.

again drew the attention of the Minister to witnesses’ Circuit Court expenses, and especially alluded to the case of District Surgeons, and said that their plight was far worse than he thought. He had received innumerable letters dealing with the matter; £1 a day, and 4d. per mile for travelling expenses was not at all a fair remuneration.

pointed out that in Cape Town three medical men got ten guineas a day each for attending Court for five days. Altogether the account came to £150. That was the other side of the story.

The amendment of the hon. member for Woodstock was withdrawn.

Sub-heads L and P were agreed to.

moved the reduction of the vote by £10,000 as appeared on the Estimates. He pointed out that this amount had already been deducted, so there was no alteration in the total.

alluded to the large number of Magistrates in Natal as compared to the other Provinces.

said the hon. member overlooked the fact that in Natal they had a large native population, a large Indian population, and therefore a considerable amount of work.

You have no more natives than we have. The Transvaal has more natives than Natal, and yet there are 41 Magistrates in Natal, and 26 in the Transvaal.

You try to abolish a Magistrate! (Laughter.) I would like to see my hon. friend abolish a Magistrate in Natal, or anywhere else. Continuing, the Minister said that these appointments were made by the Natal Parliament, and the arrangement had been left as it was.

It’s not because we want so many, it’s because we are obliged to have so many. I would go into details, but it would take a long time, and I am afraid I would not be able to convince the hon. member for Cape Town, Central.

alluded to the dismissal of native interpreters, and the substitution of Europeans to do the work. There had been no complaints against these natives, and he thought it rather hard on them, besides he considered that a native could often do the work better than the white man, because the former knew how the natives’ mind worked.

drew attention to the question of local allowances. In the district which he represented rents had gone up, they were a long way from a railway, and groceries had gone up in price, yet no local allowances were paid there, though they were paid in a place like Prieska.

agreed with the last speaker, and urged that local allowances should be granted where they were required, and especially in those places where living expenses were high. The costs in some country places were higher than people thought.

said that in considering the matter of these local allowances he hoped that the Transkei and East Griqualand would get some consideration.

drew attention to the constitution of the Licensing Court. He thought more attention should be paid to this matter, because some members were not performing their duties. They were not always present at the Licensing Courts. If men were not able to be present to do their duty, then the Government ought to remove them. He did not want to say anything against the character of these people that were appointed by the Government. The Government generally appointed fitting people, but he thought they should have more control over them. The hon. member complained of members of the Licensing Courts, especially in the wine districts, being wine farmers, who were engaged in the manufacture of wine and brandy. The number was so great that it was considered impossible for other members to do what they thought they should do for the interests of the community. He instanced a case at Worcester where a motion to close canteen taps at an early hour on Saturday evening was defeated because there were three wine farmers upon the Licensing Court. He hoped the time would come when there would be a consolidating law dealing with these matters.

drew attention to the amount of remuneration that was paid to special Justices in the Free State. The work had grown so much that these special Justices had little time to cultivate any private practice.

said he would like to raise the question of the composition of the Licensing Courts in the Cape Division. He pointed out that the old Divisional Council used to appoint three members, but that Council had been done away with. Instead of this the Rural Council had been formed, and as heirs of the Divisional Council it continued to appoint three members on the Licensing Court. The consequence was that this Licensing Court was not representative of the public. The conditions were going to be worse when the municipalities became unified, because they would only be able to elect one member of the Court. If a Minister would only introduce a small Bill dealing with this matter it would do away with a distinct local grievance. Another point he wanted to refer to was the housing of the Magistrate’s Court in Cape Town.

asked the Minister whether he had taken into consideration the question of Government nominees upon the Licensing Court. Last year the department over-rode the recommendations of the Magistrates, and in fact the Magistrates absolutely refused in some cases to agree to the nominations of the department.

pointed out, in reply to Mr. Fichardt, that special higher fees were allowed in the Orange Free State and the Transvaal, and they were endeavouring to get something like uniformity. As to the constitution of the Licensing Courts, the Government only appointed two out of five members. Three members were appointed by the local authority. As regarded the Government nominee, he relied upon the recommendation of the Magistrate. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the local allowances, they could not satisfy everybody. If they gave everybody what they asked for, of course they might be able to satisfy them. Since he had been in office, although he had been accused of extravagance, he had been doing his best to resist expenditure. Proceeding, the hon. Minister pointed out that there were two scales, a higher and a lower scale, and that these scales had been adopted after very careful consideration. The hon. member for Cape Town, Gardens, had pointed out a grievance with regard to the composition of the Licensing Board in the Cape Division, and asked him whether he would introduce a Bill to remedy it. He would tell his hon. friend that if he could so arrange matters that they would get to the Bill, then it would go through this session. (Hear, hear.)

Then, with regard to the policy in regard to supplying Cape Town with Magistrates’ Courts, he would just like to say he did not know any place in the Union which was so badly off as Cape Town. He knew of places in the Transvaal that had palatial buildings as compared with Cape Town; he might say that he also knew of places in the Cape Province—places like Fort Beaufort—where they were also palatial.

pointed out that this matter did not come under the vote that was being considered, and that, the hon. Minister was therefore out of order.

said that, on the question of allowances, he wanted to bring to the Minister’s notice the great hardship there was on married men, as compared with unmarried men. He quite agreed that the allowance to unmarried men was liberal, but, with regard to married men, it was not liberal—in fact, in the majority of cases, it was entirely inadequate. He hoped the Minister would use his influence to try and get that altered.

dealt with the matter of local allowances in the Transkei. He said he hoped that the local allowances would be extended to that territory. They were not asking for anything out of the way, but only to be put on the same level as the other parts of the country, which are in the same condition.

said the petitions had been sent in to the former Minister, asking for the appointment of a resident justice of the peace in the northern Waterberg and at Kalkbank. Promises had been made, but when the Minister resigned the matter dropped. He hoped the present Minister would make inquiries.

The reduction was agreed to, and the vote was agreed to.

On Vote 12, Masters of the Supreme Courts, £25,280,

introduced the matter of the bankruptcy laws. He said it was really about time they had some unifying law. It was a very important matter to the mercantile community.

said he was bringing in three very important Bills next session, dealing with trade-marks, patents, and one other matter. He hoped to be able to deal with a Bankruptcy Bill as soon as possible. To his mind, perhaps, it was the most important matter, and his attention had often been drawn to it.

The vote was agreed to.

moved: On page 82, to omit the item “ Deduct savings to be effected, £40,000”; on page 83, to reduce the item “Constables,” by £30,000; and on page 84, to reduce the item “Allowances—local”, by £10,000.

brought to the notice of the Minister the case of an officer in the Cape Police, Lieut. Halse. He said this officer had 25 years’ most excellent service, but still ranked as a lieutenant. He believed there were in the Cape Police vacancies for inspectors, and he would ask the Minister to consider Lieut. Halse’s case as a deserving man. He also brought to the notice of the Minister the case of the sub-inspector of police at Stutterheim.

said he noticed some very considerable increases in this vote, and he ventured to think the Minister had not given his usual careful consideration to it. There was a saving of £338.000 by the transference of police to the Defence Department and the abolition of the Natal Railway Police. He noticed that there was an increase in the number of inspectors, sub-inspectors, and sergeants, but there was only an increase of forty constables, though the Minister was going to pay them less. Last year the vote for constables was £440,000; this year it would be only £414,000. Altogether, also, there was an increase on establishment of £38,500. Then there was a big increase in the clothing bill; also in the equipment bill. Riding and transport animals snowed a big decrease, he was glad to say; but the farriery and veterinary service, with fewer horses to attend to, showed an increase. He thought these items required a little explanation.

said he would like to call the hon. Minister’s attention to an injustice that was being done to certain police officers under the reorganisation of the defence scheme, and he did so with confidence, because on every occasion on which he had brought to the notice of the Minister cases of hardship or injustice, the Minister had always acted in a most liberal spirit, and had inquired into every case. Under the reorganisation of the defence scheme a certain number of police officers—

Would not the hon. member rather bring that up on the Defence vote?

Well, it is a double-barrelled arrangement, Mr. Chairman. It affects the police and the Defence Force. This affects the police as policemen. Continuing, the hon. member said that a certain number of police had been ordered to join the S.A. Mounted Rifles, and they had left the police and thereby lost a certain number of years’ service. Now the officers who remained behind in the police would have very quick promotion, because the men who had been forced to leave would create a gap which had to be filled. These men not only lost a certain number of years’ service, but their promotion would be slower. It would have been far better, if the police had been allowed to join the S.A. Mounted Rifles voluntarily, because then the men who wished to join the Rifles would have done so, and the men who wished to remain in the police would have remained there. He did not know who was responsible for this, but, whoever it was, he thought, acted quite contrary to the recommendation of the Defence Council at its second meeting. If those recommendations had been carried out there would have been no cases of grievances. He did not know whether anything could now be done to remedy the state of things.

said that he wished to bring certain matters before the House in reference to the Transvaal Police. After the war they had a police force in the Transvaal that was only second to the London police as regarded the foot forces, and perhaps second to the Cape Mounted Rifles as regarded the mounted section. Then came Responsible Government and, under Responsible Government, they got tampering with the police, and maladministration, which had continued through Responsible Government up to the days of Union and during the days of Union. The consequence had been that throughout the Transvaal they had got a virgin field for all the thieves of Europe, and of course from the Cape Colony—(laughter)—and elsewhere. They had been constituted by the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) a “university of crime.”

For natives.

Yes, and with that destruction of law and order during the days of Responsible Government we got the genesis of the Amalita gang, a gang of young natives banded together to bring about disorder and violence, and do everything that should not be done. Proceeding, he said that for the first time in his knowledge of the native races they did not treat the white man with that courtesy and deference which they had had hitherto from the native races. With regard to Johannesburg, too often had it been said that they had all the scoundrels of Europe there. (“No.”) He would like to point out to this House that they were a law-abiding people, and that they all realised that they were citizens of no mean city, and that they meant to keep the standard of their morality as high as they possibly could. That could only be done by an efficient police force. (Laughter, and cries of: “No.”) He now came to a much more serious question in regard to the police force, and that was a question which was agitating the minds of all the people in the Transvaal, viz., the black peril. Half the black peril cases had never been told, and never would be told.

Why?

Because the people don’t care to go into the Courts. Who is to be blamed for this condition? Who can be blamed but the administration of the police force by the Government? Why is it not a good force? Firstly, it is not good in point of numbers; secondly, it is not good from the point of view of general efficiency; and thirdly, it is not good owing to the low standard of the recruits. Proceeding, he said that three constables at Heidelberg had been tried for attempted murder, attempted rape, and drunkenness. He did not say they were typical of the whole force, but it was to these men that they were entrusting the honour of their women and their own lives.

He now came to another point, and that was the question of their detective force in the Transvaal. Just recently, for some obscure reason which no reasonable man could fathom, the head of the police force had been transferred to Pretoria. He took it that the head of the police force in London was not stationed at Canterbury. He was stationed in the place where his services were most needed, and, of course, as far as the Transvaal was concerned, his services were, unhappily, most needed in Johannesburg. Touching on the question of illicit liquor trapping, Mr. Rockey said it was brought to the notice, of this House last year that several of the traps engaged were old criminals. He had only once sat on a jury in his life, and that was in an illicit liquor case. Two of the witnesses looked the most arrant blackguards he ever saw in his life. He did not know at that time that it was the practice of the Detective Department to engage the services of these criminals to trap other people. Had he known, nothing on earth would have induced him to bring in that man guilty, and he was not sure in his own mind now whether he was guilty or not. (Laughter.) He wished to bring to the notice of the House that one gang. Their books showed they had, in the course of one year, sold 37,000 dozen bottles of liquor. They were very cunning and cute. They got to know of decent white people, who had become poor and destitute, and when there were mothers with suffering children, or fathers, who saw their children want a loaf of bread—it was very easy to be moral, in the precincts of this House—these people came to them with a sovereign—it had even come to young children being brought into the traffic—and asked them to sell a few bottles of liquor for them. From that beginning they were creating a criminal class, who were not of themselves criminals, but criminals through force of circumstances. He maintained that these people ought to be protected. They got old men, women, and young children in the dock, but very rarely did they see before the Courts the real offenders. Surely they ought to be able to get at the people who did these things? He said that the Minister of Justice had to see to it that the police force he employed, and the staff were men who were worthy of the high position they held, and who would do their best to overcome this black peril, and this illicit liquor traffic. He appealed to the Minister of Justice to do what he could to re-establish law and order in Johannesburg, which could only be done by an efficient police force.

said he desired to associate himself largely with what had fallen from the hon. member for Langlaagte. He had a good many complaints, but he only proposed to deal with one or two that day. He had a return of the crimes committed by policemen in the service of this country, but he did not propose to go into those returns, as it might be thought to be a question of nationality. Unfortunately, most of the men who appeared in this list bore Dutch names. In the case mentioned by the hon. member for Langlaagte, they were all Dutch names, and in the cases in his list they were mostly Dutch names. There was a case of an ex-constable named Pretorious, who pleaded guilty to a charge of theft, and admitted previous convictions. There was another case of two Dutch constables, who were fined £2 each for being concerned in neglect of duty. In another case there was a man, Who, unfortunately, bore a Dutch name, charged with the crime of assault with intent. He would like to ask the Minister why was this vote of the police reduced by £30,000? Was it because a smaller number of police were being employed, or were their wages being reduced ? He endeavoured to get the regulations referred back, but he found the strong arm of the Minister against him. The fact was that the men were being paid too little for their work. (Hear, hear.) He had tried to demonstrate the injustice of the regulations, but the Government had remained obdurate and relentless. He thought that if they got good men for the police and paid them well they would be able to reduce expenditure in other directions, and also reduce the number of criminals in the country. He hoped it was not too late for the Minister to effect a change in this respect. He pointed out that in the Transvaal the efficiency and number of police had been gradually going down and he alluded to the departure of three hundred men from the Rand in 1908.

alluded to the shortage of police in Cape-Town.

What about Roodepoort?

Roodepoort does not need police. (Laughter.) The hon. member for Langlaagte has pointed out that its morality is of the highest. (Laughter.) Continuing, he referred to the amount of fowl thieving that had been going on in the neighbourhood of Tamboers Kloof, and said that many people had suffered loss there recently. He had occasion to make a complaint to the police the other day, and he was told that they knew these men but that suspicion was not evidence. He was told that if they had one-fourth of the number of policemen that were actually required for the City they would be able to stop all this thieving. The men were also disheartened because when they got a man convicted the sentence was so paltry that they were made to look ridiculous. The trouble was that the men were not paid properly. The authorities had been hunting the town for men, and had gone to the tramway men time and again. Fine men— the right class of men—often came to the office, but when they were told the wage they would get at the start they made remarks which he did not care to repeat in that House.

also protested against the reduction of pay to the police, and said he thought that the saving at present would cost the country very dear in the long run. Continuing, he said that he had received a large number of letters from residents calling attention to the large increase in the amount of undetected crime in Johannesburg. Dealing with the trapping system, he entered a protest against it being continued; he remarked that he was not always certain that those who were convicted were always criminals. He also referred to the great increase of drunkenness among the natives on the Rand. He pointed out, that the Kafirs were always able to find the liquor seller, and if they could do so, why could not the police? The root of the trouble was, he thought, the poor pay that was given the police.

said he thought that the Government would be able to deal with all these matters when the report of the Outrages Commission came to hand. He supported what had been said by the hon. member for Border with regard to the case of Lieut. Halse, and said he was one of the officers who had been accidently, but hardly, dealt with when re-organisation took place.

said that he would not enter into a discussion as to the morality of different places in the Union, except to say that he did not think that one could throw a stone at the other. Proceeding, he dealt with the traffic in liquor on the Rand, and pointed out that 650 men, women, and children were now in gaol for having engaged in the traffic. They were mostly of the poorer class, who had been driven into the towns, He thought it was a horrible thing, and a thing that reflected no credit on this country. He would not say that they were driven into the traffic owing to poverty, but rather tempted into it, owing to their ineptitude for work. It was an easy way of getting money. It was a manufactured crime, as it were. (Hear, hear.) There was a great responsibility cast upon them. They knew the remedy for it, but they would not put that remedy into practice. It was wrong to bring the barbarians there, pay them good wages, and let them roam wild among those people who traded on them, in every phase of vice and criminality. They were quite moral and good men until they were tempted into criminality by European sharks. They all knew that the remedy had been found elsewhere. They knew that the remedy was in keeping those people in closed compounds, and we would not carry out that remedy. How was it that, when he moved last session, he had only six supporters, and only one from Johannesburg? A heavy responsibility rested upon the Europeans in this House. They were getting natives from every part of Africa, and it was no use talking of these horrors while they refused to take the remedy. He was afraid that they were filling the natives with contempt and hatred of Europeans, and because a few people imagined they could get a few more pounds, they refused to take the remedy.

said the right hon. gentleman was the last person who should talk of the heavy responsibility which rested upon the Europeans. He wanted, however, to call the Minister’s attention to a matter in connection with the police in regard to the carrying out of the Shop Hours Act. He had had a great deal of correspondence about this, and had also seen the head of the department. As he was probably aware, they might have an extra Shop Hours Act, but, unless they had proper police supervision, the Act would become a dead letter. One case had been brought to his notice recently by an Association of Shop Assistants, and he would remind the Minister that, in such matters, these associations of employees were, by the nature of things, a most valuable help, in seeing that these laws were carried out. Now, this association brought to the notice of the police a case where the law was evaded by collusion. The police investigated the matter, and found that the allegations were perfectly correct, but they refused to take any action, and refused to prosecute the proprietress in the cafe. It was stated that the waitress gave her evidence very reluctantly, and it was stated also that if the proprietress were prosecuted the waitress would have to be prosecuted as well. It was a very bad principle for the police not to prosecute, and simply tell the offender that they must not do it again. One offender prosecuted would be a warning to the rest.

said there was a tendency to pass over local traders when they were calling for tenders for clothing for the police, and also for saddlery and harness.

referred to the deterioration in regard to the police, which, he stated, had taken place all over the Union. He mentioned the case of a police constable who was charged with rape, and although the Attorney-General refused to prosecute, it was proved by the evidence that he induced a girl of 16 to come to his office, and although the man had been acquitted on the charge of rape, the evidence was of such a nature that he ought not to remain in the force. If a man’s conduct made him unfit for the position—even of a constable— then he ought to be removed from the force. Something should be done to purify the police force, and to put a stop to deterioration.

sincerely hoped that every man in the force would have an opportunity for qualifying for promotion. Another point that he wanted to refer to was the complaint of men in the Transvaal with regard to the subsistence allowance when on duty away from the station. This amount had been reduced to an amount which the men said they could not live on.

He could not sit down without making some reference to the remarks made by the hon. member for Langlaagte and the right hon. member for Victoria West, in regard to the illicit liquor traffic on the Rand. He fully sympathised with the hon. member for Langlaagte, but he could not agree altogether with the right hon. member for Victoria West when he said there was a remedy, because there was more than one. The particular remedy to his (Mr. Andrews’) mind, was that those particular natives should not be brought to the Rand. But as they were there they should take the most obvious step of abolishing the crime by abolishing the law that created it. Everyone agreed that these boys got all the drink they wanted, and they got the very worst quality and he had yet to learn that any people had ever-been made temperate by an Act of Parliament, by prohibition. It was generally agreed that this illicit liquor selling was making criminals by the thousand, and that the infernal trapping system was spreading from Province to Province. First it was the diamond law, then it was the gold law, and now it was the liquor law. He said that if these natives would have this liquor then they should allow them to have it, but under proper supervision; and they should see that they got the proper quality. He did not think they would get many Transvaal men to agree with the compound system. They had seen Kimberley, and he did not think they would like it.

said he would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Justice to what was done in Durban two years ago to cope with the difficulty of the illicit liquor traffic among the natives. There they had a similar state of affairs to that which existed at present in Johannesburg. The Natal Legislature empowered the Durban Municipality to take charge of and have a monopoly of all liquor sold to natives. Since that Act had been passed and put into force in Durban, the reduction in the crime of drunkenness amongst natives had fallen to about 300 per year from 1,200 per year. The ale supplied to the natives was made under close supervision. He suggested that the Minister should bear that in mind in dealing with the regulations in Johannesburg. He would also like to draw the attention of the Minister to the difficulties under which the water police in Durban had to carry out their arduous duties; and, because of those difficulties, the dangers there were to human life. It was not only the duty of the water police to protect the goods on the wharf, but they had also to patrol the harbour and the Bay. To do this they were supplied with light five-oared gigs. In 1907 the police were supplied with a motor launch for bad weather; but that was later abolished, and they were compelled to do their work with the gigs. Proceeding, the hon. member mentioned a case in which a pleasure boat capsized, and a lady was drowned, and said that the magistrate in giving his finding at the inquest, drew attention to the helpless position in which the water police found themselves through having no boat in which they could render aid to people in danger, and he suggested that they would be supplied with a fast decked-in motor boat. The hon. member thought that under the circumstances the Minister should consider the question of supplying such a craft to the water police.

said that with regard to what had just been said about the water police at Durban, he would make inquiries into the matter. The hon. members for Border and Queen’s Town referred to the case of Lieutenant Halse. He might say that that officer was well known to him, and he had always understood he was a very excellent officer. The hon. member for Border also mentioned another officer. If he would give him (the Minister) the officer’s name he would look into his case. Then an hon. member referred to the question of the carrying out of the law in regard to shop assistants. A little while ago the hon. member asked him a question, and he gave him a return showing the number of prosecutions under that law. The case he specifically mentioned possessed some special circumstances why there should not be a prosecution, but generally that law was enforced. The hon. member for Cape Town, Central, said that he (the Minister) had evidently not been quite so careful as usual, in regard to that vote. Well, some of the increases which had been pointed out were very easily explained. The hon. member referred to clothes. There was a considerable increase there, and it was due to the position under the new regulations for the free issue of clothing to all recruits, and, subsequently, an allowance. An allowance was being made to foot police, and he must say it seemed a very necessary allowance. Then in regard to equipment and arms and ammunition there was an increase of £10,000. The explanation was that the excess was due to the provision of £13,000 for new equipment necessary under the new arrangement.

The further expenditure was owing to the fact that there were more inspectors, head constables, sergeants, constables, native constables, etc. In other words, the police force had been considerably strengthened, and he wanted to say that there was hardly a week passed, but he was pressed for more police. The pay of the police, taking it all round, had been increased. Somebody had said that they only got 5s. a day. A married constable on the Rand and in Pretoria received. 7s. 6d., dismounted allowance 6d., uniform allowance 2d., local allowance 2s., lodging allowance 2s. 6d., making altogether 12s. 9d. a day—very different from the 5s. which was continually mentioned. It was very much the same story as that old railway story about people getting 3s. a day. There were also other privileges, free medical attendance and medicines, four months’ vacation leave for every four years’ service, sick pay, and a railway concession ticket annually. The fact was that if they compared the pay of the police in this country with the pay of policemen in any other country in the world, even Australia, they would find that the police here were treated very well.

What about the cost of living?

The fact is. I am afraid to say, that the prospects of the police on the Rand are rather better than the prospects of artisans on the Rand. (“Oh, no.”) He went on to say that the hon. member for Langlaagte had a good deal to say about the police. It was only comparatively recently that he (Mr. Sauer) had been in charge of this Department. Let him say, in the first instance, that the idea of the police requiring watching was as true to-day as ever it was. This was no new thing. Only the night before last he was reading in an English paper of a prosecution of some policemen in London for a very serious offence indeed. He quite agreed that every effort should be made to get, as far as possible, an efficient and honest type of policemen. Somebody had asked him whether any police were dismissed if they were guilty of serious offences. The services of policemen were dispensed with almost every day if they were slack in their duties, and if it were shown that they had been guilty of what he might call an offence in the direction of impropriety, their services were forthwith dispensed with. Nothing was more essential than to have an efficient and honest police. (Hear, hear.) He was sure that every Minister would regard that as his duty in connection with the organisation, establishment, and continuance of a police force, and that was being done today. Ever since Union he had made it his duty more or less to become acquainted generally with the affairs of the Union, and he found that when Union was first established the state of things in Johannesburg was very bad indeed. He did not think it was any worse to-day. They might say it was bad still. He admitted that it was bad, but they should not talk as if it were a thing that happened yesterday, because, unhappily, it had been going on for a long time, and, in his opinion, it would go on to a large extent in the main as it was so long as they had thousands and thousands of natives running loose at night over Johannesburg. They might pass all the laws they liked, but with the temptations and the inducements there were in Johannesburg as long as they had tens of thousands of natives who were not under control, they would have this state of things going on to a large extent. As far as convictions were concerned, the difficulty arose from the state of the law. They attempted to do what was impossible.

The number of persons in the gaols of the Union, mainly on the Witwatersrand, for offences against the liquor laws other than drunkenness, was very serious indeed. On March 31 last it amounted to very nearly 1,700. That was an appalling state of things. To a large extent it was not a moral offence, but a statutory offence. The number of persons thus imprisoned was as follows: European males, 634; European females, 52; native males, 699; native females, 249; total, 1,634. He was sorry to say a great many were children.

Is that for illicit liquor?

In the main. Proceeding, he said he could quote Blue-books which showed how difficult it was in the existing state of the law to catch these people. The surprise to him was that so many had been caught. Their police might be rendered as efficient as possible, but it was not so easy to catch these people. In regard to the police and the new regulations, the Minister said that no man had been prejudiced in his pay or pension rights which he had before. In the great majority of cases they were a great deal better off than they were before, certainly in some Provinces. Out of a total number of 4,132 members of the police force, 3,963 had exercised the option to come in under the new regulations.

said that the Minister had stated that no man had been prejudiced in regard to his rates of pay. He knew of one case where a man would have received 8s. 4d. a day if the old conditions had been continued. The Minister had told them that in Pretoria a policeman was paid 7s, 6d. He had the regulations before him, and he found that a policeman was paid 5s. in the first year and 5s. 6d. in the second year.

I spoke of married constables.

I beg your pardon. Single constables do not get 12s. 6d. The Minister put the most favourable case before the House. I wish to put the most unfavourable.

The amendments were agreed to, and the total votes were then passed.

moved: On page 88 to omit the item “Deduct savings to be effected £10,000”; and to make the following reductions on page 90, viz.: item “823 Wardes (European) £99,511”, by £8,000; and item “Native and Coloured Warders £23,847”, by £2,000.

raised the question of the warders’ rates of pay, and compared present rates with the rate ruling before Union. The hon. member went into details to show that the amount of past service allowance of the warders was reduced. He pointed out that, different from before Union, a warder’s pensionable pay would have increased, whereas at present the increment went on, but his past service allowance was reduced, and the salary received which was pensionable remained the same. The warders lost the accruing right to an increase of pensionable rights on an increase of pay.

moved the reduction of the vote by £1, his object, being to bring to the notice of the committee the present state of the administration and the position of subordinate officers and other persons who lacked the opportunity necessary for further promotion. He went on to draw attention to a case of a married officer, who had sent his wife and children to England, and who applied to the Director of Prisons to live outside and be treated as a single officer. The application was granted, and the allowance was given to the officer of but 1s. a day, although the leave was granted before the prison service order came into force. He contended that the officer should receive 1s. 6d. a day, and should have been entitled to pensionable emoluments.

Turning to the question of promotion of warders, he said that during the last thirteen years there had only been two cases in the Transvaal where a subordinate officer had been promoted to the position of assistant superintendent, although in Natal he believed it was quite different, for there he believed all superintendents had at one time or another been promoted from the position of subordinate officers. The hon. member asked the Minister of Justice why there was a difference with regard to the police force and the prisons department? So far as promotion was concerned, the service of the police included all men, but in the prisons department it meant such of the staff of the department as were subordinate officers, and did not apply to men who were commissioned officers. It bad been stated that those matters were regulated by the Public Service Commission, but, as far as he could see, the Publics Service Commission know nothing at all about that matter of promotion. He hoped that the Minister would show a little sympathy with the department in regard to promotion, as he did in connection with the police, so that promotion after attaining the rank of chief warder should not be denied. The hon. member went on to say that in answer to a question the hon. Minister of Justice had said that 11 officers had been appointed to take charge of industrial schools and reformatories, and eight had been previously in the service of the Prisons Department, but the Minister did not tell them that those eight appointments were superintendents, who had had to combine the duties of superintendents with their new duties in connection with the industrial schools and reformatories.

Continuing, he said that only two prisons were placed in the first class, and he thought there should be more first-class prisons, so that officials might gain promotion. They would get much more efficient officials if they were given inducements in the way of promotion.

complained of the closing of the prison at Prieska, which took place last year, with the result that prisoners had now to be sent to De Aar. No saving was effected thereby, as they still had to maintain a sort of prison, and also a staff. He would be glad to know from the Minister whether there was in fact a saving.

said he would like to allude to some expenditure which might be reproductive. The Prisoners’ Aid Society had a hostel for boys at Johannesberg. Boys who had got into trouble and whom the Magistrates did not wish to send to prison were sent to this hostel, their sentences being suspended. Employment was obtained for them, and they worked in the ordinary way, but they were subject to the beneficial influence of the superintendent. Anybody who knew the man knew how beneficial his influence was. There were 25 boys in the Home at present, and they cost £100 per month. Half of this was handed over by the boys out of their wages, and the other half was contributed by the Society. The institution was really a shelter, and he would appeal to the Minister in regard to the new building which was to be erected, and for which the Town Council of Johannesburg had granted a site. Expenditure of this kind meant a saving of money and men. Another point was the need for some accommodation in Johannesburg for boys of tender years who had been taken into custody or whose parents were in gaol. The Children’s Aid Society took over the girls, but there was no accommodation for the boys unless they went to the Salvation Army Hostel, or, if that were full, nothing remained but a police cell. Perhaps the Minister would give these matters his attention.

alluded to the amount of £3,000 that was set down for the Prisoners’ Aid Society, and directed his attention to the local branch, saying that he was rather astonished at the financial statement for last year. One hundred and thirty-three pounds had been paid out in grants, etc., of which £42 had been refunded, and against disbursements of £92 they had administration expenses amounting to £414 3s, 8d. He admitted that some administration expenses were necessary, but he thought that much of this work could be done by voluntary aid. He went on to say that they had the Salvation Army, of whose work, from personal experience, he could speak with appreciation. He did not think, however, that it would cost the Army £414 to disburse £92. He had thought of moving that this amount be paid to the Army, but he had now decided to leave the matter to the Minister. He pointed out that their rescue work was invaluable and that it was conducted on sound and economical lines. Though he did not agree that religious institutions should be subsidised, yet he thought that the Salvation Army, which was really undenominational in character might be recognised as State servants. In conclusion, he remarked that the Provincial Council had made small provision for the Army.

said that he could heartily support what had been said by the last speaker with regard to the Salvation Army. Ho thought that the vote by the vote might be reduced by half and that half given to the Salvation Army. Since Union the Prisons Department had abolished lock-ups and small gaols under this scheme of concentration. There was no doubt that there had been a saving. He noticed that the saving was put down as £11,000, but there was another side of the question from the police point of view. They had been put to considerable more expense in escorting prisoners.

pointed out that, with regard to the concentration, generally there was a saving of £9,000. He quite agreed with his hon. friend that there was another side to the question. With regard to the hon. member who referred to the pensions and emoluments, those whose emoluments were pensionable before Union retained their rights, and those officers who were not pensionable prior to Union, would fall under the law of 1912. With reference to the point concerning the filling of the higher posts in prisons, these were held by Civil Servants; promotions were made from the ranks frequently, but it must be recollected that these higher positions were not many, and he quite understood that promotion would be slow. In Natal, specially, there had been a large number of promotions. With regards to prisoners’ aid, he entirely agreed with the hon. member as to the usefulness of the Salvation Army. Is was probably the most useful Christian organisation in existence, and deserved more aid than it got. (Hear, hear.) He quite recognised that it spent its money most economically, and he would be glad to give it all the assistance he could; but he would point out that the money in question was spent in trying to find employment for men who had been prisoners, although, in that respect, he quite believed that the Salvation Army would do just as much as anyone else.

asked why the higher officials in the police should not be Civil Servants?

said that it had been the object to have a class of men in the higher positions who would be permanent, and who would not come and go.

desired an answer to a question that he had put to the Minister on March 17, but had, so far, no reply, except that the notice given was too short.

asked whether the Minister would give him some information with regard to certain suspensions at Pretoria Gaol?

said he would like to put in a word for a reformatory training ship in the Bay, and remarked that this was an old hobby of his. He pointed out facts that had come to his notice in connection with the reformatory, and said he thought much better work would be done if boys were trained as seamen, as was done in European countries.

said he would answer the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle, as soon as he possibly could In reply to the hon. member for Liesbeek, he said he believed that that matter was pending; no decision had yet been come to. He agreed with the hon. member for Queen’s Town. He was speaking the other day to somebody from Knysna, who was interested in cutters that went up and down the coast, and he said he had induced some young boys to go on board these vessels, and that within a short time they had turned put almost as good as Norwegians. He agreed it was an excellent thing, but it was not so easy to do it. He had not got the ship.

Get a ship.

I think you will find it easier said than done. I wish I had a place of that kind. Continuing, he said he would promise to put himself into communication with people who had to do with ships that traded on the coast, and see whether he could not get some of these boys employed in that way.

said that the British Admiralty put the ships at the ports. All the Admiralty asked was that these boys should be put on the ship; it was part of the Admiralty arrangements. Perhaps if a communication were addressed to the Admiralty they might give the Union assistance, because they were always in want of seamen.

asked how many boys were in the reformatories.

said that at Estcourt a barracks had been handed over to the Prisons Department. Would it come into the possession of the Defence Force, he asked.

said it was two months since he had asked for some information regarding two warders.

said he would get the information.

The Minister’s amendments were agreed to, and the vote agreed to.

I wish to ask—

The hon. member cannot deal with a question of policy.

It is not necessarily a question of policy. It is on the vote of the Secretary for Native Affairs.

The hon. member can proceed and I will see.

said he thought the Minister misunderstood some remarks of his the other evening. They were not meant for the Minister. He wished to know the reason for the discontinuance of the compound returns, which had not been supplied since the middle of 1911. He also wanted to know whether the length of time for the detention of natives in the compounds had been increased. Then he wished to know the amount paid out in native compensation for accidents during last year, and whether claims had been made on behalf of natives under the Miners’ Phthisis Act, and how much had been paid out? He also asked whether the department had taken notice of natives who had contracted the disease but who had left the mines?

Returning to the question of the compound mortality, he gathered from what was said in the House that that information was given in the annual report of the W.N.L.A. It was stated in the last annual report of the W.N.L.A. that the mortality in 1912 was 49.34 per thousand, against 67 in 1911, and 79 in 1910. There was no information, however, as to whether those figures included the mortality in the compounds. In regard to the determination of the Government to stop the recruiting of tropical natives, he would like to know what power the Government had of enforcing this, seeing that it was outside the borders of the Union. Another question suggested by the report of the W.N.L.A. was some figures in regard to natives who were rejected before they reached the mines. They found that out of 64,000 natives imported, 1,087 were rejected before they reached Johannesburg. That rather seemed to indicate that not much care was taken as to the state of health of those who were recruited. Then a further 834 were rejected at a W.N.L.A. compound, making in all nearly 2,000 natives who, before doing any work at all, were rejected as medically unfit for the work. Another question on which the Minister might perhaps be able to give them some information was in regard to the new Mozambique agreement. He would like an assurance from the Minister that when the report of the Select Committee on that subject was presented, the Government would give an adequate opportunity for its discussion in that House.

said that, in regard to the question asked by the hon. member as to compensation to natives, the amount paid to dependants of natives who died as the result of accident, was £8,272, and in respect of permanent injuries sustained by natives, £6,740. As to the Miners’ Phthisis Act in so far as natives were concerned, since the Act came into operation in August last, 66 cases had been dealt with and £775 paid in compensation. With regard to the question of the Mozambique agreement, he hoped that the report of the Select Committee would be presented in a day or two, and he would very much like to see that report discussed, and would endeavour to do all he could to obtain that.

In regard to the question of the stoppage of the importation of tropical natives, he was rather surprised that that question was now asked. He saw that some people in Johannesburg had been crying out that it should be stopped, and other people had said that it was a, promise of the Government which meant nothing, and that they were not able to carry it out. Then why should they be asked to do an impossibility ? In his opinion, the Government had power to stop it, and they meant to stop it, and they had got the means of stopping it. They had taken additional powers in the Immigration Bill. The W.N.L.A. was not stronger than the Government, and if the Government of the country decided that it was to be stopped, it must be stopped. Really, he did not think any purpose would be served if he were to state the means the Government had in their power of stopping it. He had no reason to doubt that the W.N.L.A. would recognise the decision of the Government, and would act accordingly. Therefore, he did not want to say anything which might assume that the W.N.L.A. intended to disregard the decision the Government had come to in this matter. It was a very important step the Government had taken, and they meant that it should be given effect to, to the letter. He might add that the rate of mortality on the Rand was extremely unsatisfactory, even apart from the tropical natives.

said that the Minister had not dealt with the point as to the large percentage of natives who were brought down and found to be medically unfit.

said he might tell the hon. member that he would endeavour to get very full information, and it would be his duty to see that the natives got their dues, and that they were protected as far as possible when they were working.

remarked that the number of cases of natives dealt with under the Miners’ Phthisis Act seemed to be very small.

said that the Act only came into operation on August 1, 1912, and 66 cases were dealt with up to the end of December last.

asked if the Government intended at an early date to deal with the question of the definition of natives in connection with certain laws. At the present time many of their laws were being broken, and when these cases were brought to the notice of the police they were powerless, because certain tribes of natives who had come into the Union were not included within the definition contained in the Act.

said that great difficulties had arisen in Kimberley and Griqualand West owing to the word “Bechuana” being omitted from the Innes Liquor Act. As to the suggestion of the hon. member for Greyville that Government shops should be established for the supply of liquor to natives on the Rand, he thought such a scheme would be worse than useless. The natives on the Rand were being provided now with very good Kafir beer of not very great strength by the mining companies, but it did not stop drunkenness, and the illicit liquor traffic continued. He thought there was only one remedy, and that was the one pointed out by the right hon. the member for Victoria West, viz., to compound the natives. Johannesburg to-day was not a patch on what Kimberley was in the old days, and it was only when the compound system was introduced that that deplorable state of affairs was ended. He had not yet had a reply from the Minister in regard to the question of interpreters in the Magistrates’ Courts in the Transkei. He would like to know whether the Minister was carrying out a policy of substituting white men in the place of natives. He also wished to direct the Minister’s attention to a question of great importance to the people residing in the district of Xalanga. The loyal people living there, after some trouble which occurred some years ago, were given certificates of occupation. Steps had since been taken to issue titles, which might be divided thus: (a) one kind to holders of certificates of occupation, and (b) another kind to people who had rights there, but who were not holders of certificates of occupation. The people claimed that holders of certificates of occupation ought to be given what were known as Embokotwa titles, in accordance with the promises made by the Cape Government. They especially claimed that the redemption of quitrent which existed in the Embokotwa title should be extended to them, and that the provision for forfeiture on account of rebellion which did not exist in the Embokotwa title should be inserted in a title.

asked on what item the hon. member was now speaking.

Native affairs.

ruled that the hon. member was out of order, pointing out that they had had a discussion on native policy on a motion to reduce the Minister’s salary by £100, which had been negatived. The hon. member, he added, must confine himself to a particular item.

It is a grievance of these people. It is not the general policy.

said he had allowed a discussion on the whole policy to come in on the vote for the Minister of Justice.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

said, with reference to the matter of the Xalanga titles, he did not intend to continue any criticism of the Minister’s policy, as the Chairman ruled that out of order, and he would confine himself to asking the Minister whether he would consent to refer the matter to the Select Committee on Native Affairs.

replied that he had very fully considered the question and had come to the decision on it which had been communicated to the hon. member and to the representatives of the people concerned, and he did not intend to alter that decision, nor to reconsider the matter, and therefore he was not prepared to refer it to the committee on Native Affairs.

In reply to the hon. member for Tembuland,

said that no native interpreter in the Native Affairs Department had been dismissed. He did not intend to do away with the services of native interpreters.

With regard to recruiting for the mines—

Order.

This matter was brought up by the hon. member for Jeppe.

The hon. member can’t—

But it is not a question of policy, Sir.

Which item?

Native Labour Department. I move to reduce the salary of the Director by £5.

The hon. member can’t discuss native policy, but he can ask a question.

It is a difficulty to ask a question, Sir, without saying what I mean. Will the Minister take steps to see that the people—labourers—recruited voluntarily, are medically examined in the Transkei as well as those otherwise recruited, so to prevent the men going up being declared unfit, and being repatriated, and then going back to the Rand as voluntary labourers and being declared fit?

dealing with the special annuities to the Griquas, said that the money had been paid for 50 or 60 years. It was now being paid to the heirs, and was split up into small amounts, sometimes even a few shillings. It was suggested that this should be commuted in a lump sum. He also referred to a petition from the Griquas, which the Minister had been pleased to accept. He hoped the Minister would look into the matter during the recess. It would be a matter of kindness, for even if there was no redress the matter would be placed on a solid basis.

said that he would give attention to the first point raised by the hon. member for Barkly. He understood that a request of the native had been made some time ago, it being stated that the money was to be used for the purpose of building a training school. He would also give consideration to the second point.

said the matter had been under consideration for years. He was disappointed.

said the Minister would see that in the Native Labour Department there was an increase in the vote of £4,000. He noticed that there was an increase of 21 clerical assistants. Would the Minister please explain that?

There has been a considerable increase in the clerical work. The ordinary staff was unable to collect the fees, and after consultation with the Treasury it was thought best to increase the clerical assistants for that purpose.

Would the Minister consider the matter that he had just spoken about?

asked his hon. friend to meet him, and they would discuss the matter.

I don’t regard the Minister’s answer as fully satisfactory, in view of the figures that they had before them. These additional clerks were employed in connection with the finance staff. Was the staff unable to cope with the work without being strengthened?

said that he had been approached by the permanent officials of the Finance Department, and, after consultation, the staff was strengthened.

The vote was agreed to.

moved: That votes 16 to 24 (Minister of the Interior and Minister of Lands Department) stand over, as his right hon. friend, the Minister of the Interior, could not be there that evening.

The motion was agreed to.

asked the Minister to inform him how he proposed to deal with the redemption of the Cape Perpetual Stock?

said that he had drafted a Bill; some doubt had been thrown upon this question as to the figure at which these loans could be released. His intention was, in a couple of days, to introduce a Bill to say at what figure the Government would redeem the stock.

asked whether it was necessary to have nine clerical assistants in the Repatriation Department ?

pointed out that it was necessary to have this clerical assistance until the amounts had been recovered.

asked the Minister if any repatriation money had been set aside for an Agricultural College at Pretoria

said his hon. friend was not quite right as regarded his query. In the Transvaal the system was to devote repatriation money recovered to certain public works, and in that way some public works had been erected. Since Union they had established one consolidated loan account. His hon. friend was referring to the Agricultural College. Well, provision would be made for that, although they might only at the start be able to proceed in a small way.

drew attention to the vote of £755 for the Chief Storekeeper, Cape Town. He considered that this vote was in the wrong place, and that it more properly belonged to the Minister of Defence Department.

pointed out that every department had to keep its own stores, and this had nothing to do with defence work.

asked if the Minister was going to do away with the Indian taxes in Natal?

said that it was quite true that the Indian tax did not figure any more on the Estimates, as assigned to the Province of Natal. They thought it better to keep this in central revenue, and to give Natal an equivalent of £10,000. That was why the subsidy to Natal was raised, so that the whole question might be considered on its merits by the Union Parliament. The abolition stood rather on a different footing.

When Mr. Gokhale was here, he had an interview with the Government on the subject. Mr. Gokhale had pressed very strongly for the abolition of the tax, and was told by him (the Minister) that the proceeds of the tax were not large, being only £10,000, although they should get much more. The collection of the tax was not working well. If the question of policy were got over the tax, as such would not stand in the way. But, of course, there was the question of policy, which was very important. The old Natal Government, years ago, introduced a tax in order to force the Indians who did not re-indenture to go back to India. If they did not go back, they had to pay a £3 tax. Hon. members would recollect that the Natal Government had pressed very strongly that those indentures should expire in India. They would go back to India under indenture, and on arrival there would be free. To that the Indian Government would not agree. The Natal Government replied: “Very well, if they have to be free men in Natal, we will impose some tax, and provide some inducement to make them go back.” That tax was not imposed as a tax to get revenue, but simply as an inducement to the Indians to return to their country. It was explained to Mr. Gokhale that, if the Natal people did not press too strongly as a matter of policy, the tax would not stand in the way. He was now seeing in that House, and in the other House, whether there was any objection to the abolition of the tax as a matter of policy, and, if there was not, well, the £10,000 would not make a very large difference.

said that his impression was that the point had been conceded to the Imperial Government. He understood that it was part of the understanding arrived at between the Imperial Government and the Union Government.

That is not so.

said that, in the beginning, it was not intended that that tax should be imposed upon children, nor upon women. Now, it was a tax upon men, women, and children over 13 years of age.

said he had been waiting very patiently to hear if there had been a settlement of that matter. A day or two ago he had seen in the newspapers the case of a man who had been sent to prison for not paying that tax. It was causing intense irritation amongst the Indian population. The tax was put on to encourage the Indians to return on the expiration of their indenture; but, at the present time, there was no such desire in Natal that those people should return to India, because that would accentuate labour difficulties. He thought they should certainly know the intention of the Government in the matter, so that there would be no further irritation caused. It was never intended to refer to women and children.

said the tax belonged to the Union Administration, and he thought it was an extraordinary position to take up by the hon. Minister when he said that the decision whether it should be remitted or not should be dealt with by a section of the members of that House; and in another place. But that Parliament was responsible for the tax being remitted or remaining. To be told by the hon. Minister that he had not made up his mind whether the tax was to be remitted or not, that he was going to consult a section of the members of that House and in another place, was a very extraordinary position to take up. Having gone into the question of whether that tax should be remitted or not, the hon. Minister should take the responsibility. There was a great deal of uneasiness about the tax, and he understood that it was one of the grievances which the hon. Minister thought should be redressed.

said that all through the session, when anything had arisen in regard to Natal, they had always had some hon. member on the Opposition front bench getting up and “going for” Natal. He hoped the people of Natal would take note of that. (Hear, hear.) On quite a number of occasions they had attacked persistently when Natal was mentioned in that House. The hon. Minister had said that he wished to consult the hon. members for Natal in connection with that section. Was there anything criminal in a Minister consulting the members representing the Province concerned in what immediately affected them? He had never heard more utter rubbish talked.

It makes up for last night’s indiscretion.

said he disagreed with the hon. member for Durban, Central, that there was a feeling that the tax should be taken off the men. It might be taken off the women and the children, but there was a strong feeling that it should remain on the men. Despite what the leader of the Opposition had said he hoped that the hon. Minister would consult the members for Natal, and with regard to the remark of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg, he thought that they had a number of friends on both sides of the House. He thought that they were equally willing to do anything for Natal as for any of the other Provinces.

said it was a very plausible story that was being told by the hon. member for Victoria County with regard to the tax. He (Mr. Boydell) disagreed that it was the general feeling that the tax should not be taken off the men but it should be off the women. As a policy of justice, the general feeling was that the men did not have to pay that £3 tax which had been imposed upon them. Why should the Indians be fined £3 if they did not return to India? The reason was to coerce them to re-indenture, because immediately they did that they had not to pay the tax. It was the sugar planters who held the power in Natal, and it was they who had told a very plausible story to the people of Natal. The real reason that they put this tax on was to make the Indian reindenture. If they had seriously wanted to send the Indians back over the sea they would have made a serious attempt to collect the money. It was iniquitous that labourers should have to pay from £12 to £15 a year for themselves and their families, and it could not be defended on any principle of justice and right.

said he supposed what the hon. Minister meant when he said he wanted to consult his friends in Natal, he meant the sugar interests, and, of course, the Government’ Mbongo, the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg, North. (Laughter.) Those who looked at the question seriously must be disappointed by the attitude taken up by the Treasury. He thought that part of the settlement of the immigration question would have been the removal of the tax, and he thought that that was the reason that £10,000 extra was to be given to Natal, because the tax was to be remitted. He was sorry the hon. Minister had not taken a broad view when they were dealing with the Indian grievances. He thought the matter should have been brought forward then. It was unjust that part of the population which was in receipt of the smallest income should be taxed £3 per head, and it was grossly unfair that that tax should be levied for one interest in Natal, for the statement of the hon. member for Greyville was partly borne out by the small amount that was gathered. There should be a permanent settlement of the Indian grievances.

said that both the hon. member for Durban, Greyville, and the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, needed a little correction. There was no doubt at all that the original reason for the tax was the fact that it was put on with the object of forcing them back to India. He did not admit that it was in the interests of the sugar planters. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg, North, had attacked the front benches of the Opposition, but he thought they had the interests of Natal at heart quite as much as the front benches of the other side of the House. The object of the tax was definite with the idea of forcing those people back to India, and if that could not be done the idea was to make them reindenture, and by working their reindenture they did not forfeit their return passages. It was to force them back either at the end of the first indenture or at the end of the second.

said it appeared to be a sort of tax on labour.

called attention to the position in connection with the Post Office Savings Bank accounts, which called for some explanation. He said that in 1910 the amounts due to depositors showed an increase of 17 per cent. over 1909. For 1911 it dropped to 7 per cent., and in 1912 they dropped from £454,000 to £211,582, or an increase of only 4 per cent. In the absence of any explanation that seemed a very serious matter. Everyone would agree that the Post Office Savings Bank was perhaps the best sign they could have of the general welfare of the people. His hon. friend the Finance Minister or his predecessor reduced the rate of interest from 3½ per cent. to 3 per cent. That, to some extent, was no doubt the explanation of the serious drop, but was it a very wise policy to keep the people out of the Post Office Savings Bank for the sake of a very small saving in the matter of interest. Speaking of Cape Town alone, there was only one institution outside the Post Office Savings Bank where the people could nut in small amounts, and the man or woman who had saved over £100 in Cape Town was obliged to go to the Post Office. With reduced interest there was a temptation to refuse to put the money in the Post Office Savings Bank, and a tendency to put the money into some sort of wildcat scheme. The hon. Minister would be well advised to reconsider the rate of interest in the Post Office Savings Bank. Let them take the case of a man who had £100 or £200 in saving bank certificates. He could not withdraw unless he gave three months’ notice, except on paying the Post Office 10s. He thought that to tie up a man’s money for a year, and give him three per cent., was to keep him out of the savings bank. People should be encouraged to put their money in the savings bank instead of investing it in some wildcat scheme. The Minister might consider the question of putting the interest up to 3½ per cent. on savings bank certificates, even if he did not do so on ordinary deposits.

said he would like to explain the matter to the House, seeing that he was more acquainted with it than his hon. friend The question was raised sometime ago of increasing the rate of interest. The feeling some of them had was that it would be possible to raise it, but they were faced with this fact: not only would they have to pay the increased interest on ordinary deposits, but also on certificates, which would mean that they would have to pay increased interest on six millions of money which stood in favour of depositors now. It was a question as to whether it was good policy to do that. It meant an extra half per cent. on six millions. It was quite true that the amount due to depositors had fallen off, but the number of depositors had not decreased. After all, the savings bank was a poor man’s bank, but it was not quite confined to the poor man. A man was able to deposit £500 in the ordinary way, and then £500 on certificates, making a total deposit of £1,000. They were still getting the poor man’s savings, but if it was necessary in the interests of the Government and depositors to increase the rate of interest, that would be done. He thought that the hon. member was unwittingly misleading the House.

said that he just gave the facts, and he did not understand the Minister’s reference to misleading the House. The point he made was that if a man had £100 on a certificate, he could not get it out in less than three months unless he paid 10s. With regard to the rate of interest, he did not press it so much in regard to ordinary deposits as in regard to the holders of certificates, and the amount in this respect was nothing near six millions. The total amount on certificates was only £948,000. He said it was a serious thing not to offer every possible inducement in connection with the Savings Bank.

said that as they had done so much for the rich man, he thought the least they could do was to attempt to do something for the poor man.

said he would like a more or less definite assurance from the Minister with regard to the Natal question he had raised. Another point was the Pension question, with regard to which the Minister had promised to introduce a Bill.

said he would like to support the hon. member for George.

ruled that the point was not quite germane to the vote.

said that the officials of some of the departments were graded differently to the officials of other departments. The officials of the Finance, Justice, and the Interior Departments were graded higher than the officials of the Agricultural, Mines, and Native Affairs Departments. He did not quite understand why the salaries of the Under Secretaries in the Department of Finance ran from £950 to £1,100, while the salaries of the Under Secretaries of Agriculture ranged from £850 to £1,000. He did not see why there was reason for such a great difference.

said that they had taken into account the previous salaries of the Under Secretaries. He pointed out that the Departments had been classified on the basis of the amount of work that was done. There were administrative reasons for the difference.

I can’t see the reason.

said that they had carefully inquired into the matter. Continuing, he said that if the hon. member for Durban, Central, would exercise a little more patience, the question which he had asked would be solved satisfactorily. A Bill would be introduced before the end of the session to deal with, the recommendations of the Pensions Committee. The Government was considering the matter of indentured Indians. He had consulted the people concerned, and he had consulted not only one side of the House, but also the other. (Laughter.) He thought the subject had been sufficiently thrashed out, and hoped they would now let it pass on.

said he had not been consulted.

said that there were other people interested in this question besides Natal members. He knew that this was one of the greatest grievances of the Indians, which was proved by the correspondence. He was led to understand that this grievance of a £3 tax was also to be done away with. He would ask the Minister if he was not going to listen to the entreaties of the Indians and the requests of His Majesty’s Government.

said that this tax was put on either to induce these people to leave the country or to re-indenture. What were they doing? If they were re-indenturing they were re-indenturing in order to get their passage to India. There was no evidence to show that the tax was producing either of the two results that if was intended to produce. It was a very serious matter. Was it wise, therefore, to allow it to continue, seeing that it was producing so much friction?

The vote was agreed to.

asked the reason of the increase in the amount of this vote. First, he did not think there was any increase in the taxes or that the work was increased. Was the Minister going to collect the Amusement Tax that he saw to-night suggested in the paper? (Laughter.)

Order, order.

said: there was more work.

The vote was agreed to.

Vote 27, Audit Department, £49,096, was agreed to.

Vote 28, Customs and Excise Department, £148,506.

moved that the items be taken seriatim.

Agreed to.

On sub-heads H to K, General, £1,900.

put a question which was inaudible.

replied that the Act of 1909 distinguished between dop and wine brandy.

moved to reduce the vote of £1,300 (Grants-in-aid) by £500.

pointed out that most of this was in aid of the National Society. The activities of this Society were started with a great flourish of trumpets, but they were quieter now, probably because they were working harder. (Laughter.)

asked whether a Weights and Measures Bill was to be introduced.

Next year.

The sub-heads were agreed to without amendment.

The vote was agreed to.

said he would like to know what was being done in regard to the show of South African products in London.

said that the place in the City had been supplied with very good specimens from all parts of the Union. In regard to the exhibit in the Imperial Institute, the Imperial Institute had promised to spend £1,000 to remedy that exhibit which had fallen, as the lawyers said, in disuetude.

said he would like to know whether anything was going to be done to reduce the scale of salaries. They paid their High Commissioner as if he were the ambassador of a first-class Power.

It is less than Australia pays.

Australia. I see, this year are coming out with enormous surpluses. He went on to say that the Secretary received £1,000 a year, which was a very high salary in London. Then they had an Assistant Secretary at £600 a year and an accountant at £525. He would also like to know if something was going to be done in regard to the Consulting Engineer, £1,200. He did not think the present arrangement was satisfactory. He noticed that there were 67 clerical assistants in this office, and yet they were taking a vote of £700 for “temporary professional and clerical assistance.” He did not think there was anything to be said in regard to the 35 clerical assistants in the stores and shipping branch, but it was difficult to understand why the High Commissioner should have 32 clerical assistants in his own office.

said he thought it was a great advantage to have in London a consulting engineer who was acquainted with South African conditions. He would like to ask the Minister if the High Commissioner’s Department in London was regularly supplied with information in regard to the state of the labour market in South Africa,

said that the High Commissioner was a distinguished public servant and, for all he knew, represented the Union of South Africa very well in London. As regarded his clerical assistants, he supposed the High Commissioner found that there was enough work for them to do. On the few occasions on which he had been inside the office, he had been struck with the enormous number of people who came there. He saw that amongst the staff were two stamp inspectors He would like to ask the Minister what was the position now in regard to stamp duties charged in London upon South African stocks. He thought this system of charging duties on transfers of South African stocks, which would in the ordinary course have been done for a nominal consideration, tended to prevent people from dealing in those stocks and encouraged them to make investments in Canada and other parts of the Empire where those stamp duties were not in force.

said that, in regard to the item of “Consulting Engineer,” there was no doubt that in the present stage of development in South Africa there was a need for the highest possible technical and professional advice, and he agreed with the hon. member for Fordsburg that they could not expect to get the requisite advice on the divergent technical matters which had to be considered enrolled in one person. The proper way, he thought, would be to get technical advice from an expert in the different lines on the different matters upon which the Government required advice. He hoped the Minister would not expect this particular gentleman to give advice on the aeroplanes which would no doubt have to be imported for the Defence Department.

said he would like some information with regard to the item of “Advertising and exhibitions, £850.” While in London recently, he had noticed that the products of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and Rhodesia were well advertised, but he looked in vain to see anything advertising South African products, etc.

Just walk down Park-lane.

said he thought the hon. member for Greyville must have visited the wrong place. With regard to the point raised about the Consulting Engineer, he would repeat what he said last year, that they did not wish to appoint a successor to the present occupier of that office, who was near the end of his period of service, but as soon as he retired, the specialist’s work of the department would in future be done by experts appointed for the purpose. It was not intended to have a permanent consulting engineer any more. He had been advised that that was the best arrangement in the public interests. As to the matter raised by the hon. member for Germiston, he was going to introduce a Bill so that Municipal and Union stocks would be exempt from such taxation. Then as to whether they were to keep the High Commissioner informed as to the state of the labour market in South Africa, well, they could always say that the coloured labour market was always understocked and the white labour market was always overstocked. There was no need to send marconigrams to London about that. In answer to the hon. member for Fordsburg, he said that the High Commissioner was a very efficient administrator, and that the large number of clerks was not in excess of what was required by the exigencies of that service. The railway work that was done there represented more than half of the work done by that department in London.

said the number of clerks seemed to him to be excessive. He was sorry to hear his hon. friend say they were not going to appoint any permanent engineer for inspection. They had tried both ways in the Cape, and they found that to appoint a permanent officer was the better policy of the two.

said they had found by experience that a permanent officer meant a great saving. A permanent man could go about and do a great deal of inspection work on his fixed salary. If the consulting engineer was paid on the basis of commission on the costs, the more the undertakings cost the more commission would the expert get. If they were going to have great designs to be supervised then they could go outside their permanent office, but for ordinary matters they ought to have their own man.

said he did not know that their present engineer was about to retire, and he hoped that his services would be recognised. He had given excellent service in Natal before he was appointed as consulting engineer in London. He (Sir David) was sorry they intended to take away the position of consulting engineer who was attached to the office in London, for he thought there was a great value in having such an officer attached to the department.

referring to an instance given by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort, said it was not the work of the consulting engineer to have the designing of a bridge in England. That should be done by the Railway Department. It was his business to see that the work was carried out properly, and he thought they would save his salary over and over again by his seeing the work carried out in a proper manner.

The vote was agreed to.

asked the Minister of Finance if he intended when the market was favourable to fund more of the floating debt. It appeared to him that the Minister was paying very high rates of interest for his floating debt. He thought that the large amount of floating debt was not advisable.

said he would like to make a personal explanation in reply to the hon. member for Umvoti. When the hon, and gallant member spoke on the Budget debate he said that he (the speaker) had contributed materially to the failure of the public to subscribe to the recent loan. That would be a serious accusation if made by a private member but the gravity of the charge was accentuated when the statement was made by an hon. member who had just left the councils of the Government. That statement was untrue, and if the hon, and gallant member of Umvoti had taken the trouble to read what he said, he would have known that there was no truth whatever in his statement. He remembered the afternoon the Minister of Finance made the statement that he was inviting applications for this loan. On the same evening he (the speaker) spoke, and he purposely refrained from making any reference to. the loan. What he did speak about was the loan account, and he pointed out that the position was most favourable, and that the more they made that known the better it would be for the credit of the country. It was not what private members said in that House that affected the credit of the country. It was what the Government did. The hon, and gallant member for Umvoti could not wriggle out of his responsibility. One thing that did damage to the credit of the country was the ill-starred and ill-advised proposal of the late Minister of Finance to tax bearer shares. That alienated the sympathy of those interested in South African loans, and the hon, and gallant member for Umvoti was a member of that Government— he might even say he was the driving force of that Government. (Laughter.) Then he read him (the speaker) a severe lecture on party allegiance. He (the speaker) was prepared to put his record against the record of the hon, and gallant member for Umvoti.

said that the subject was not germane to the vote.

It is a personal explanation. The hon, and gallant member took the opportunity to read me a severe lecture—

ruled the hon. member out of order.

said that, if the Chairman ruled him out of order, he would accept that ruling. When such a distinguished member as the member for Umvoti made an attack on him, he thought he had the right to reply.

said that, as a fellow-victim—(laughter)— he might point out it was with the greatest surprise one morning, not having attended to the debates in the House as he should have done, that he read a speech, in which the distinguished and gallant member who recently left the Ministerial ranks, made a shabby and unprovoked attack on him. (Laughter.) In the course of that illuminating speech—(laughter)—the distinguished and gallant member took occasion to say something with regard to what he (the speaker) had said as affecting the comparative failure of the South African loan. He was never so astonished—(laughter)—and pained. (Laughter.) It would not have been so bad when made by an ordinary person, but when a person with the distinguished record of the hon. member for Umvoti, just fresh from the Councils of State—(laughter)—said a thing like that, it naturally fell with tremendous force. (Laughter.) He had no hesitation in saying that it damaged his character considerably. (Laughter.) He took the earliest opportunity of ascertaining what were the telegrams of a speech that, appearing in England from a humble person like himself, had had such an effect upon the underwriters. What did he find in the papers of the following day? Simply that Mr. Merriman, together with Sir Edgar Walton, deplored the disproportionate dependence of the country upon the mining industries. He had also criticised the Government on the score of extravagance, declaring that he would listen to no taxation proposals until expenditure had been reduced. This came out the very day before the loan was announced, and these few words, according to the hon. member, had had such an effect upon the money market. The hon. member set about to damage the character of a humble individual like himself, but really he did no harm. It was a silly speech and he should be more careful in future.

The vote was agreed to.

moved to report progress.

Agreed to.

Progress was reported, and leave granted to sit again on Monday.

in moving the second reading of the Precious and Base Metals Act Amendment Bill, said the Bill proposed, under the supervision of the municipality, to issue trading sites in locations and bazaars on proclaimed land. They could not drive people who had occupied sites in the past from their old haunts, and not provide them with other places. The second question had reference to illicit trading in unwrought gold. The suggestion really came from the Detective Department of the Police, that the Government should deal with this. The hon. Minister referred to. a case of an Indian carrying on business in Johannesburg whose premises, after examination by the police, were found to contain large quantities of unwrought gold. Illicit trading was going on to such an extent that it was impossible, under present conditions, to secure convictions or to control the traffic. He proposed in the Bill to alter the definition so as to give them more control. He believed that by the new definitions and the new regulations they would be able to deal effectively with this trade.

said he wished to raise a protest against the principle of setting up another set of monopolies. He presented to this House last year a petition signed by practically all the shopkeepers along the Reef asking the Government to take into consideration the advisability of abolishing the present monopoly that existed in regard to trading on mining areas. Now part of these trading sites proposed in this Bill would be on mining areas, and he thought it was inadvisable to extend the present system of these stores along the Reef, where the ordinary trader was debarred from going and carrying on his trade. These monopolies were in the hands of a few people, and it was proposed to extend the system in regard to locations and bazaars. Personally, he thought it would be better for the country if they abolished these monopolies altogether. In regard to clause 3, he was glad to see that the Minister proposed to define the term “unwrought precious metal.” From what he had seen in the Magistrate’s Court in his own constituency, he knew something of the difficulties which the poor magistrate had in trying to define the law as it existed at present, but his own opinion was that the proposed change would inflict a great hardship It was proposed that “unwrought precious metal …, shall further include any bangles, chains, or any other articles whatever containing precious metal, made up, smelted, or manufactured in the Union.” This, he thought, was very stringent, and would inflict an enormous hardship on the working jeweller.

I have provided for that.

said that, in his opinion, the working jeweller on the Rand would carry on his business in the future with very great’ difficulty and very great risk to himself. In this law they were placing upon any man who came into possession of such metal, whether by way of trade or otherwise, the onus of proof that he fell within one of the exceptions which were named. He thought they ought not to put into any law anything of this kind which would have a tendency to drag a number of people into court, and possibly lead to the conviction of people who might be innocent. He thought it would be much better if the Bill were limited to the first clause, which in itself was bad enough.

said that this Bill undoubtedly dealt with a very difficult subject, and it also contained provisions which were exceptional, but he thought that the justification for a Bill of this kind was that the circumstances were also exceptional, just in the same way as the circumstances connected with the diamond industry in Kimberley long ago required exceptional legislation. The hon. member for Commissioner-street had criticised the first portion on the ground that it tended to create a monopoly of storekeeping on mining areas. It did not seem to him (Mr. Chaplin) that the subject of trading on mining areas was affected by this Bill. As far as he understood it was only to enable people who had been compelled to go into locations and bazaars to trade there. The whole thing was under the control of the municipalities. The estimate of the police with regard to the value of the gold that was stolen every year was about £600,000. That was an enormous sum, and it was not as the hon. member said that it was only a matter of saving a little gold for the mining companies, it would mean the saving of an appreciable amount of public revenue, for on the basis that it was all profit the Government would stand to lose £60,000 a year hard cash, and surely that was something. Apart from that the traffic in this gold was demoralising, there was that to consider too. The mining companies had detective forces of their own, but it would be much better if the duty of trying to prevent that trade was in the hands of the public officers, but as things were at present it was impossible to get on without special detective officers. There was no doubt that, through those organisations, a considerable number of criminal people were detected and arrested by the police, for of course, the private detectives had no power to arrest. It did seem that some provisions in the section might rest hardly upon the working jeweller, but a good deal of the gold could not be got rid of unless some of those jewellers were in the illicit trade. He could not conceive that any honest jeweller could possibly object to a clause of that kind. No doubt the majority were honest, and he would say they would rather welcome some protection of that kind. With regard to the methods of the people in the illicit trade they made an alloy so that it was no longer unwrought gold, within the meaning of the existing law, and people in the traffic got off scot free. There was the, risk, of course, of an occasional miscarriage of justice, but the advantages would largely outweigh them.

said he thought the House should be careful before entering into anything of the nature of panic legislation. It was strange that Bill had been brought in so very late in the evening. He looked upon it as a very cute move. With regard to the statement by the hon. member for Germiston that it was estimated the amount of gold stolen every year on the Rand was £600,000, that might or might not be so. It was purely an estimate, and coming from the place it did come the figures were hardly likely to be smaller than the real figures. The estimate was unreliable. He did not think that the C.I.D. had any means of estimating within £10,000 of the amount of gold which was stolen every year on the Rand. As to the solicitude of the hon. member for Germiston for the Government and for the people of the country, even granted the Government would be losing, the House should be very chary of passing the second reading of that Bill as it stood. He agreed with the hon. member that it was undesirable to create a monopoly on the reef. He could see another instalment of the compound system cropping up. He thought that they should hesitate before they went too far. In this measure there was that iniquitous un-British method of making the accused prove his own innocence. This Bill was not for the benefit of the industry, but a certain section of the community. Special legislation was constantly being forced on the country for the benefit of the few. He thought that the Bill should not have been brought in at that late hour of the night.

thought it was unjust to cast these insinuations against any particular section of the community, though he was in favour largely with what had been said by the hon. member for Commissioner-street. He thought that the definition was far too wide and that it was a wrong principle to throw the onus on the accused person. How was a man to protect himself if he was found in possession of a bangle? The Minister had not outlined that.

said he would like to reply to a few of the remarks that had been made, and he would like to say as regarded the definition of the words that the hon. member objected to, that they were already in the Bill. The hon. member for Commissioner-street had stated that he was repeatedly in the Magistrate’s Court when they were unable to obtain convictions. Regarding the question of the hon. member for Von Brandis, as to how an honest man could protect himself, it was his (the Minister’s) intention that jewellers should keep a register, and from that they would be able to get an amount of control. This sub-section (c) was taken from the law as it now stood.

said he had hoped that the Minister would have indicated why this particular industry should have restrictive legislation introduced for its benefit. The only blessing the Bill had received had been from a member of the Corner House in the person of the hon. member for Germiston. He hoped that in committee many radical changes would be made for the benefit of the general dealers of the Witwatersrand.

said he did not think the Minister had caught the purport of the remarks made by the hon. member for Von Brandis. While the old section said that unwrought metal included any form of metal, it went on to say “which is unworked.” This section, he urged, should be road with the other.