, from G. H. Hulett and others, residents of Zululand and Vryheid, praying for the immediate construction of a line of railway from Vryheid to Empangeni, or for other relief.

, from G. Ward, formerly inspector of sheep in the district of St. Marks, Tembuland, who after nineteen years’ service was retired on March 31, 1913, praying that the House might consider the circumstances of his case and grant him relief.

, from A. C. van Rensburg and 153 others, inhabitants of Willowmore, praying for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Veto, whereby men and women may decide by ballot on the continuance, reduction or issue of liquor licences, or for other relief.

a similar petition from F. Gould and 63 others, inhabitants of Port Elizabeth.

, from M. Smit and 127 others, adult coloured men and women, resident in Montagu, praying for the total prohibition of the sale or supply of intoxicating liquor, except medicinally or sacramentally, to any coloured person within the Union; and similar petitions from D. Redcliffe and 42 others, adult coloured men and women, resident in Shiloh, Queen’s Town; from J. K. Noble and 61 others, adult coloured men and women, resident in the town and district of Queen’s Town; from A. Jaftha and 46 others, adult coloured men and women, resident in the town and district of Worcester; from H. Michaels and 81 others, adult coloured men and women, resident in the town and district of Oudtshoorn; from F. Tyamzashe and 53 others, adult coloured men and women, resident in the town and district of King William’s Town; from H. Kleinsmith and others, adult coloured men and women, resident in the town and district of Mossel Bay, and from C. Geldenhuis and 101 others, adult coloured men and women, resident in Prince Alfred’s Hamlet, Ceres.

, from Jessie M. Rouse, widow of E. Rouse, late Sergeant in the Cape Mounted Police, who after 16 years’ service, died as a result of an accident in 1912, praying that the House may consider her circumstances and grant her a pension or for other relief.

, from Reverend D. B. Davies and 51 others, inhabitants of the district of Peddie, praying for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Veto, whereby men and women may decide by ballot on the continuance, reduction or issue of liquor licences, or for other relief, and a similar petition from Ethel M. Smith and 100 others, residents of the town and district of Cradock.

, from J. P. Botha and others, residents in Venterstad and the district of Colesberg, praying for the enlargement of the goods shed at Norval’s Pont Station, or for other relief.

Paper dealing with the contemplated removal of District Veterinary Surgeon Webb from the Mooi River district, Natal.

Regulations as to sale and possession of dangerous weapons.

Returns showing further information with regard to farms or portions of farms in the Transvaal Province, which appeared in the return presented to this House on the 24th February, 1913, as having been registered during the years 1910 to 1912 in the names of natives.

Papers and correspondence relating to the proposed reservation for church and school purposes of sites in native areas in Natal (Nos. 16 to 47).

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the Government will grant to the police, once a year a free travelling pass on the South African Railways, similar to that now enjoyed by railway employees?

The answer to the hon. member’s question is in the negative.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether he is aware that the recognised standard rate of pay for mechanics in the Transvaal is £1 per day, or an average of £27 per month, exclusive of Sundays; (2) whether in advertising for mechanics as chargemen and instructors at agricultural schools and for other posts in his department, he is desirous of obtaining the most highly qualified men procurable, or whether he only requires apprentices; (3) how many applications for the post of mechanical chargeman and instructor at the Potchefstroom School of Agriculture, carrying a salary of £12 10s. per month, he has received from first-class mechanics; (4) whether he is aware that mechanics at coast towns receive £18 18s. and more per month, and that in consequence he can only obtain men who are not qualified to demand such wages to take up the post advertised at £12 10s.; (5) whether the very highly trained mechanic will be required to instruct students as part of his ordinary day’s work, or whether such instruction will be in addition, and, if the latter, whether the instructor will be paid overtime; and (6) whether he will in future endeavour to attract the best men obtainable for Government work, by offering at least the same salaries as are paid by private employers?

replied: (1) I am advised that the rate of pay referred to represents the maximum wages for mechanics in the Transvaal. (2) It is desirable to obtain men possessing a good practical knowledge of agricultural machinery. (3) Twelve applications from men who appear to be well qualified had been received on the 7th instant, and it is probable more will be received, as the list does not close till the 19th instant. (4) I am informed that the rate of pay referred to in this instance represents the maximum wages for mechanics at coastal towns. (5) The successful applicant will be required to instruct students as part of his ordinary day’s work. (6) The wages offered are £12 12s., rising to £15, per mensem, and free quarters. Having in view the comparatively low cost of living on the farm and that the work of the employee is directed and superintended by a skilled engineer, it is considered that the wages offered are sufficient for the post.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether South African medicinal mineral waters are carried on the railways at the tariff laid down for South African produce; and, if not, (2) whether he will consider the desirability of placing them under the said tariff?

replied: (1) The reply to both these questions is in the negative. The policy of the administration is to restrict rather than increase the number of articles carried at special South African produce rates with a view to the gradual elimination of preferential railway tariffs, which are objectionable and unjustifiable from a railway point of view.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that one Jan Olie, a burgher, was knocked down and killed by a motor-car which was driven by one Thompson, at Groenkloof, near Pretoria, on the 22nd of March; (2) whether the police have thoroughly investigated the circumstances and the cause of the death of the said Olie, and why no public inquiry was held by the Resident Magistrate of Pretoria; and (3) whether the Minister is prepared to instruct the Magistrate to hold such inquiry and to report thereon?

replied: (1) I am aware of the fact. (2) The matter was investigated by the Police and a public enquiry was held by the Resident Magistrate of Pretoria and completed on the 3rd of May. The result was a verdict of “Accidental death.”

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that great inconvenience is caused in the Cape Provincial Division of the Supreme Court owing to the fact that, though the Court sits in three divisions, only two shorthand writers are provided for the work of the Court; (2) whether he is aware that an expert shorthand writer whose services could be made available when necessary is employed upon purely clerical work in the office of the Registrar of the Court; and (3) whether he is prepared to appoint the latter as a third shorthand writer for the work of the Court?

replied: (1) It has been reported to me that the appointment of a third shorthand writer would be welcomed. (2) I am aware of the fact that there is a third shorthand writer employed on clerical work, but his appointment is a clerical one and his time is fully occupied with his clerical work. (3) The establishment of shorthand writers for the various Provincial Divisions of the Supreme Court was laid down by the Public Service Re-organisation Commission since Union, and I may here state that it always has been the practice to place only two shorthand writers at the disposal of the Provincial Divisions of the Supreme Court. If, however, some responsible person made representations to me in the matter, full consideration will be given thereto.

asked the Minister of the Interior: When the Public Service List for the Union will be published?

replied: I do not anticipate that the list will be published until August at the earliest.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours:

(1) What is the estimated cost per mile of instituting and operating a road motor transport service for passenger and goods traffic as specified in the Report of the General Manager of Railways for 1911, with particulars as to cost of (a) preparing the necessary roads, (b) supplying the vehicles, (c) the equipment of the service, and (d) maintaining same; and (2) what has been the actual average cost per mile of the road motor transport services at present in existence in the Union?

replied: (1) Estimated cost per mile of instituting a road motor transport service for passenger and goods traffic: Where good roads are in existence, £250 per mile; where first-class metalled roads have to be constructed, £1,450 per mile; where second-class roads have to be constructed, £900. Estimated average operating costs: Passenger service, 1s. 7d. per car mile; goods service, 6d. per ton mile. (a) Estimated cost of preparing necessary roads: First-class metalled road with maximum grade of 1 in 15, £1,200 per mile; second-class road made from local gravel or road metal with maximum grade of 1 in 12, or existing veld road graded and hardened, £650 per mile. (b) Estimated cost of vehicles: First-class passenger vehicle, to carry passengers, mails, and parcels, £1,100 per vehicle; 3-ton baggage or goods lorry, £825; paraffin tractor with trailers carrying 12-ton load, £1,600. (c) Estimated cost of buildings, plant, machinery and tools, exclusive of vehicles: 20-mile service, £680; 30-mile service, £1,100; 40-mile service, £1,500. (d) Estimated cost of maintaining roads, plant, and equipment: Roads, £30 per mile per annum; vehicles (including depreciation), 9d. per car mile; equipment, 7½ per cent. per annum on original cost. (2) Average actual cost of existing services, including depreciation, 1s. 7.7d. per car mile.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether it is a fact that ticket examiners on the Cape railways, prior to Union, had the privilege of obtaining free meals on the trains while on duty:

(2) whether they are now compelled to pay one shilling for each meal they have on the trains while on duty; and (3) whether the Government is prepared to restore the previously existing privilege?

replied: (1) The staff on the Cape lines designated as conductors collected and examined tickets on through trains prior to and for some time after Union, and these men were allowed to obtain their meals in the dining-cars free of charge while on duty or while travelling in uniform; (2) the answer to this question is in the affirmative; (3) no; men who prior to Union enjoyed the privilege of free meals were granted an increase in pay, to compensate them for the loss of this concession.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) Whether the last returns of mortality among the natives employed in the Transvaal mines include those natives who leave their employment through illness, and succumb on their way to, or shortly after, their arrival home; (2) if not, what are the amended figures; (3) whether it is the intention of the Government to hold an inquiry into this matter, similar to that held by the British Parliament into the alleged Putumayo atrocities; (4) what is the mortality in the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association compounds of natives imported from south of latitude 22 deg.; and (5) what was the number of such natives repatriated on account of ill-health during the period 30th June, 1912, to 31st March, 1913?

replied: The replies are as follows: (1) No. (2) No statistics are available of the deaths amongst these natives after return to their homes; it is, therefore, impossible to supply figures in which such deaths are included. (3) The Tuberculosis Commission now sitting was, inter alia, appointed to “ascertain the extent and the causes of the mortality of natives employed on the Witwatersrand mines and their susceptibility to pneumonia, with special reference to those coming from tropical areas, and to make recommendations thereon.” (4) The mortality in the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association compound among natives imported from south of latitude 22 deg. during the years 1910, 1911, and 1912 was as follows: During the year 1910 there were 30 deaths out of 44,684 such natives who passed through the compound; 1911, 12 out of 40,894; and 1912. 25 out of 45,549. (5) The following natives imported into the Transvaal from south of latitude 22 deg. were repatriated on account of ill health during the period June 30, 1912, to March 31, 1913: Portuguese East Coast natives, 3,015, being 3.91 per cent. of average number employed (repatriated through W.N.L.A. compound); British South African and other natives, 3,236, being 2.51 per cent. of average number employed (repatriated through Government compound). The above figures include a small proportion of natives unfitted for work on account of injuries received through accident, but do not include natives rejected as unfitted for mine work by the medical officer immediately after their arrival in the Transvaal, and returned to their homes or allowed to seek other employment.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs whether the Government has obtained further information with regard to the farms or portions of farms in the Transvaal Province, which appeared in the return presented to this House on the 24th February, 1913, as having been registered during the years 1910 to 1912 in the names of natives; and, if so, whether he will lay such information upon the Table of this House?

replied: The further information has now been obtained, and has been laid upon the Table.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) What arrangements have been made in the past for the transport of native labourers from north of latitude 22 deg. from their homes to the Rand, and whether the Government is aware of any methods adopted which may account for the high mortality which has occurred in the compounds on their arrival; and (2) whether any figures are available as to the mortality among this class of native labourers on the journeys from and to their homes; and, if so, what are they?

replied (1) Natives recruited by the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association in British Nyasaland Protectorate proceeded to the Transvaal via Rhodesia They were medically examined at Fort Jameson, and in case of sickness occurring en route again at Bulawayo and Mafeking. Clothing was supplied to these natives before leaving Fort Jameson, and was supplemented on the journey as climatic changes necessitated. Rest houses, where food and shelter could be obtained, were built at intervals along such portions of the route by which these natives had to travel on foot. Natives recruited north of latitude 22 deg. in Portuguese territories proceed by sea to Lourenco Marques and thence by rail to Johannesburg. It is understood that they are medically examined at the time of recruitment, and it is known that they are medically examined upon their arrival at Ressano Garcia. These natives embark as may be most convenient at Amelia, Mozambique, Angoche, Quilimane or Chinde. Sufficient and suitable rations are supplied for the voyage by the Empreza Nacional de Navegacao Company, which has contracted with the Association to convey these natives between the ports nearest to their homes and Lourenco Marques. Recruiters employed by the Association travel with these natives from time to time to see that suitable accommodation and good and sufficient rations are supplied. There is no reason for believing that the methods adopted in any way account for the high rate of mortality prevailing amongst these natives. (2) No figures are at present available.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) What is the amount of money each Minister has drawn as expenses or allowances over and above his Ministerial salary during the financial year 1912-13: (2) what is the amount the Government has paid on each Minister’s behalf or is responsible for over and above the Minister’s salary during the same period; and (3) to what accounts have these amounts been charged?

replied: (1) Ministers do not receive any allowance or other payments from public funds over and above their salaries. Their expenses of travelling when on Government business are, of course, paid from public funds. (2) The travelling expenses above-mentioned were as follows during the year 1912-13: Prime Minister, £345; Minister of Agriculture, £148 2s. 8d.; Minister of Justice, £140 11s.; Minister of Native Affairs, £56 17s. 9d.; Minister of the Interior, £44 1s. 10d.; Minister of Lands, £295 5s.; Minister of Finance, £206 6s. 1d.; Minister of Defence, £15 15s.; Minister of Mines, £90 18s. 9d.; Minister of Education, £279 15s. 5d.; Minister of Posts and Telegraphs, £42 11s.; Minister of Public Works, £122 3s. 10d.; Minister of Commerce and Industries, £33 14s.; Minister of Railways and Harbours, £382 19s. 3d. (3) The votes of the departments concerned.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) If it is a fact that some postal assistants at King William’s Town, who were appointed since Union, have been informed that vacation leave to the extent of 21 working days per annum, which is non-accumulative, may be granted to men so appointed under the new regulations; (2) if the Public Service Commission or the Government are responsible for the issue of leave regulations; (3) if the Public Service Commission or the Government have issued any new regulations in respect of leave; if so, have the staff generally be acquainted with them, and, if not, why not; (4) if neither the Public Service Commission nor the Government have issued new leave regulations, by what authority are the regulations referred to in paragraph (1) hereof being applied; and (5) if the new regulations are being observed in all the postal districts in the Union, if not, to how many districts do they apply and how many are exempt, and why is the differentiation made?

replied: (1) The reply is in the affirmative. (2, 3, 4, and 5) All officers appointed since Union requiring leave have, on the instructions of the Government, been informed in terms of question No. 1, pending the issue of new general leave regulations.

asked the Minister of Defence whether an order for the manufacture of several thousand Cadet knickers has been recently sent to England for execution, and, if so, at what price, and why was not the order placed locally?

relied: Tenders were invited for locally manufactured and imported Cadet knickers. The tenders for local manufacture were very much higher than those for the imported article, even when allowing the full percentage of preference of local manufacture. The tender of a Durban firm for imported knickers at 2s. 4d. a pair was, therefore, accepted. It was more advantageous than the lowest overseas tender.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) What is the name of the official who now fills the position in the office of the Registrar General, Pretoria, of Births and Deaths, which position was formerly held by the present Secretary (Mr. Hofmeyr) to the Public Service Commission; (2) what were his qualifications for the office; (3) did he hold any appointment under the Government of the South African Republic; (4) has he held any public office in the late Colony of the Transvaal, if so, when and what were they; (5) was an inquiry held by the Resident Magistrate of Pretoria into charges made against officials of the Repatriation Department in the Transvaal; if so, did he make any reference to the said official, and, if so, what was the tenor thereof; and (6) whether he will lay upon the Table of this House all papers relating to this official?

replied: The name of the official in question is C. J. Boezaart, and he was appointed to his present post on the recommendation of the Public Service Commission. I am quite prepared to show the honourable member the papers relating to this case, and he can then, if he still thinks it advisable, move that they be laid on the Table of the House.

asked the Minister of Public Works: (1) What was the amount paid during the past financial year for inspections of necessary repairs to Government buildings, including travelling and hotel expenses of officials; and (2) what was the amount spent on actual repairs?

replied (1) I regret it is impossible to answer the first part of the question as the cost of inspections of all classes of work is charged to one account. (2) £92,640. This does not include the cost of repairs to Provincial buildings, which is charged to Provincial funds.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether he is aware that there is much dissatisfaction at Pretoria because of the number of Civil Servants who are sent to Cape Town during the Parliamentary session; and, if so, (2) whether he will take steps to limit as far as possible the number that are thus transferred during the session?

replied that he was not aware of any discontent. As to the second part of the question, only such officials as were required in Cape Town were transferred during the session.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) Whether his attention has been called to certain communications made by the secretaries of the Johannesburg Consolidated Investment Company and the Witwatersrand Townships Estate and Finance Company to the Local Government Commission now sitting in the Transvaal and to certain other letters from the Johannesburg Town Clerk and the Registrar of Deeds, Pretoria; (2) whether he is aware that it appears from these letters that whereas the Johannesburg Consolidated Investment Company paid transfer duty on certain property acquired by them on a value of only £45,638 13s. 4d., they now state their books show that the actual consideration paid for these properties was £528,695 3s. 5d.; (3) whether he is aware that it further appears that the Witwatersrand Townships Estate and Finance Company paid transfer duty on certain property acquired by them on a valuation of £40,000, and now state on the evidence of their books that the consideration paid for the property was £174,000; (4) whether it was stated on oath to the Leasehold Townships Commission by the representative of the purchasers that the amount paid for the property referred to in paragraph (3) hereof, was £528,000; (5) whether similar discrepancies occur in the properties bought by the Braamfontein Company and Lourens Geldenhuys mentioned in the letter of the Registrar of Deeds between the amount on which transfer duty was paid and the amount actually paid; (6) whether the Government will take immediate steps to ascertain whether the statements now made by these purchasers are true, and in such event (a) institute immediate criminal proceedings against those who swore the affidavits of valuation on which transfer was paid; and (b) take steps to recover the amounts of transfer duty underpaid with interest to date; (7) if the present statements by these purchasers are untrue, whether the Government will institute criminal proceedings against the witness who stated on oath to the Leasehold Townships Commission that the amount paid for the Berea and Doornfontein Townships was £528,000, and whether they will take such other steps as may be in their power to bring to punishment those who have wilfully endeavoured to deceive the Local Government Commission as to these purchase prices?

replied: (1) Yes. (2) The facts of the case are as follows: The properties in question were purchased by the Johannesburg Consolidated Investment Company for 45,638 2-3 shares of a nominal value of £1. The final transfer of these properties was not effected until 1904, but as the properties passed between the parties in September, 1896, the assessment for transfer duty purposes was made under Law No. 20 of 1895, of the late South African Republic, which provided that where the consideration paid is in shares, the nominal amount of the shares shall be taken as the basis of assessment for transfer duty purposes. Consequently transfer duty was paid on £45,638 13s. 4d. notwithstanding the fact that the shares were at that time quoted in the market at about £4 per share. The explanation of the large difference between the actual value of the 45,638 2-3 shares and the total amount shown in the company’s books is that, at the same time as transfer was passed, certain leases were transferred; but these were not liable to transfer duty under the laws then in force, consequently no consideration is shown by the Registrar of Deeds, as passing for these leases. (3) The Witwatersrand Township, Estate, and Finance Company purchased certain property in 1903 for consideration of £46,500, and transfer duty was paid on that sum. The consideration of £174,000 quoted by the company in their letter to the Local Government Commission was in respect of other properties purchased before 1899, in addition to the property above mentioned. (4) The amount stated to the Leasehold Townships Commission was £300,000, and this figure includes the purchase price of other properties, as well as that above mentioned. (5) Similar differences occur in connection with the properties named. The purchases by the Braamfontein Company and by Lourens Geldenhuys were made as far back as 1893 and 1877 respectively, and were dealt with for transfer duty purposes under the laws which were then in existence. (6) and (7) I am advised that in neither case has any cause for action been disclosed.

moved: That the Sessional Standing Order giving precedence to the consideration of the Estimates of Expenditure by Committee of Supply during evening sittings, adopted on the 2nd May, 1913, be discharged.

said he was glad to see that the Government had realised the position in which they had placed the business of the country by an Order which they now sought to discharge. He had taken the opportunity of pointing out to the Government the extraordinary position that would occur if they adopted this order, even one of the strongest stalwarts of the Government—the right hon. the member for Victoria West—also took the opportunity of pointing out the exact position that would arise. Notwithstanding that they deeply sympathised with the Government in the tangle they had got into, still he would not like to take up the time of the House on a private members’ day in discussing a matter of this sort. Therefore he would like to call Mr. Speaker’s attention to Standing Rule No. 43, and to ask Mr. Speaker’s ruling upon that. His point was that he expected that the Government would be obliged to take a step of this sort, and he had been waiting to see when due notice would be given. He did not think that the procedure of the Prime Minister yesterday over-rode the rule that notice of the motion should be given 24 hours before it was moved. He wanted to ask Mr. Speaker’s ruling on the point whether, in view of the fact that twenty-four hours’ notice as required by Standing Order No. 43 had not been given of this motion, it was competent for the Prime Minister to move it?

I agree with the interpretation placed upon the Standing Order by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort. The notice of this motion was not read out in the House yesterday when notices were called for from the Chair. At the same time, I must point out that it has been the practice in the past to receive in this way notices of a formal character from Ministers at the table and not to insist in this respect on a strict compliance with the Standing Order. Since, however, exception is now taken to this practice by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort, I must rule that the notice required by the Standing Order has not been given and that the motion cannot therefore now be proceeded with.

said he did not so much object to the matter as to the breaking of the rule which stated the House should have 24 hours” notice.

If the hon. member objects then I must rule against the motion being taken now.

moved: That the Government be requested to consider the advisability of introducing legislation for so amending the Miners’ Phthisis Act, 1912, as to provide more adequate and speedy relief to persons qualified to receive compensation. The mover said, when the House passed the Miners’ Phthisis Compensation Act last session, he thought that members honestly believed that the result would be that the problem would be largely solved. Believing that, he thought that if it could be shown that the Act had broken down in any one of the particulars that it had set out to cope with, then members would be inclined to vary their point of view with regard to the Act of last year. That the Act had been a lamentable failure he could prove to the satisfaction of the House. He would like to tell the House what very few members knew, and that was the tremendous amount of time which invariably elapsed between the date of the application by the sufferer and the date of the award. As a matter of fact, those who were suffering from miners’ phthisis had the greatest difficulty in obtaining information regarding how they were going to formulate their claim for compensation. To prove how these delays occurred, he would quote two or three different cases. He had in his mind one case, a particularly distressing case, not from the point of view of delay alone, but the whole of the circumstances. This man was a widower, and he had seven children. He had a sister-in-law looking after these children. Now, this man, when last he heard from him, had been waiting two months from the date of his application for his award. He had not heard from him since, and presumed, therefore, that he had got it. In the meantime he had been paying 10 guineas a month for rent—he did not know if this would meet with the approval of the right hon. member for Victoria West.

It must be evident to members that it was essential that this man should get his award as soon as possible. As a matter of fact, he was kept waiting for at least two months. There was another man who was kept waiting three months—this man, by the way, died a month after receiving his compensation. Another distressing case was that of a man who lived on the charity of his friends after he put in his application. This man felt his position keenly, and hoped to reimburse his friends to a certain extent when he got the money. Unfortunately he was kept waiting so long that he died, and his friends went further and paid £20 for his funeral, which must have been considered far too expensive, for the Board only allowed £15 for the funeral. He knew of the case of another man who was kept waiting so long that he had to sell one of his only two suits of clothes in order to buy food. He hoped that hon. members would press for an amendment of the law so that these men would be able to secure their compensation more rapidly than was possible at the present time. The average delay over all applications from the date of application to the time of examination by the Board’s doctor was a fortnight. The average delay from the time of application to the time of award had been about seven weeks. The result was that many of these men got into the hands of money-lenders, and though something had been done in regard to this matter, the cause had not been removed. He did not blame the Board, because he believed that the members of the Board were doing all that they could possibly do. The trouble was that the department was understaffed so badly that even the present staff had to work until eleven every night, without extra pay, in order to try and remove arrears. He was sure that the members of the Board would be public spirited enough to sit many more hours a day if the cases were ready for them. There was not even accommodation for applicants. The room set aside for them was generally so crowded that they overflowed into the corridors. Another case where the administration of the Act had broken down was in regard to widows and children of the men. When these widows made application they had to start de novo and supply information which had already been obtained from the deceased miner. After drawing attention to the cases of men who had contracted miner’s phthisis on the Rand and who were now in other parts of the world, and who, though entitled to benefits, could not get anything because no machinery had been provided, Mr. Madeley dealt with the method of payment of the awards. The majority of these awards were paid out by instalments. Many lump sums were paid, though these were only small amounts. In cases where £400 was awarded, the person who got the money could make better use of it if it were paid to him at once instead of being paid in instalments. This particular method of paying had pressed very hard upon one particular section of the community, viz., the descendants of the farming population in this country. A great many individuals had called upon him, and stated that under the special circumstances that were existing they could not possibly do any good at all upon £8 a month, but, if they got a lump sum, they could provide not only for their wives but also, for their children. It was also eminently desirable that, if the instalment plan were to obtain, the instalments should be increased. They wanted the Act so amended that, if the Board continued to exist, they should be encouraged to increase the instalments and the total amounts, rather than discouraged.

Another direction in which this Act had repeatedly broken down was in regard to one of the objects, that it was to be an inducement to miners to come out of the mines, leave mining alone, while they were still in the first stage of the disease, and to accept £8 a month for 12 months or a lump sum of £96. Their practical experience during the last 12 months was that this had not induced one man of his own free will to come out of the mines. Any man who had come out had been forced to come out, having thought that he was qualified for the full sum. The argument used in support of this contention was that if a man got a nice little sum of £96 and worked on the surface, and had apparently the normal span of life before him, he would be induced to accept the £96 and get work on the surface, but at the present time they had men unable to get work who were actually strong and healthy. In very few cases had any of these men obtained employment on the surface. Men had come to him and asked for advice, and he had told them to accept the £96 and get out of the mines, but their reply was that they would rather die at work in the mines than die on the surface at starvation wages. The conclusion they were driven to in consequence of their experience was that no discrimination could or should be made between different stages of this disease. Once a man began to feel at all inconvenienced by the disease, he should be induced to come out of the mines by payment of the full compensation. There should be no question of partially disabled or wholly disabled. Another point made by the right hon. gentleman, and backed by the hon. member for Germiston and the hon. member for Yeoville, was that, if the miners were bound to contribute to this compensation fund, it would make them careful, and the result would be, if not wholly preventive, at all events, partially so. They on those benches contended during the whole of the discussion that it would do nothing of the sort, and he felt convinced that hon. members would now agree that it had done nothing of the sort. For three years they had had this question before the House, and he would defy any member to prove that there had been any diminution in the number of applications for compensation, or that there was less miners’ phthisis at the present time than there was when this subject was first brought up in the House. The Board reported in January last that they were receiving no fewer than eleven applications per day. His information was that, during the past three months, there had been close upon a thousand applications.

The conditions that miners had to work under were made by their employers. The men had to go down again, after making their first blast, through the smoke and dust, to get ready to fire the next blast. The blasting caused most of the dust, and the men could not control that. The only remedy was proper legislation and proper watering down by the mine management. The regulations were useless, and were being continuously evaded, because the Mines Department could not supply sufficient inspectors. The Minister knew so little about the mines that he told the House that the regulations that men should not work more than eight hours at the face were not broken. The mine owners had instituted a system of overtime tickets, and the men were working from ten to fourteen hours a day all along the Reef; but, according to the books, they were working only eight hours a day. The only way to cope with miners’ phthisis, so far as prevention was concerned, was to schedule the disease under the Workmen’s Compensation Act. Then the disease would be reflected in the working costs, and directly the profits of the mine owners suffered, they would see that everything possible in the way of prevention was carried out. There would be scientific ventilation, and water would be laid on, and there would be a more scientific organisation of the working shifts. He had heard it said that the mine-owners’ hearts were in their pockets, and he believed it was true.

seconded the motion.

said he was bound, from his experience of the working of the Act, to admit that there was a lot in what the mover had said, especially in regard to capitalising the monthly payments, which would do an immense amount of good to the men, and thus enable them to be in a better position to provide for their wives and families. But on account of the lack of statistics, he did not see how it was possible at this stage of the session to have the desired legislation introduced, and he would, therefore, move, as an amendment, the omission of all the words after “advisability of,” and to substitute “appointing a Commission to inquire into the expediency of so amending the Miners’ Phthisis Act, 1912, as to provide for (1) more adequate and speedy relief to persons qualified to receive compensation, and (2) the keeping of proper statistics of all employees, both European and coloured, on all mines falling under the said Act.” Proceeding Mr. Mentz said there appeared to be no statistics kept more especially as regarded natives. This was apparent when the Mozambique Treaty was considered by the Select Committee on Native Affairs, of which he was a member, when the mine managers and doctors who were called to give evidence before the committee could tell the committee nothing. Work on the mines accounted for a very large proportion of the diseases prevalent among natives. Shocking as were the figures which had been given in the House as to the death rate of natives on the mines, they knew that these figures did not represent the full death rate of these natives. They also knew that a great many of them died shortly after they left the mines. Municipalities had had to make representations to the authorities that men died on the roads and in the trains, and to such a large extent, that some of the municipalities had decided not to include these deaths among their ordinary mortality returns. The matter was an extremely important one, and the sooner we faced it the better, because the health returns showed that in the ordinary course of events between 7,000 and 8,000 natives were yearly carried off on the mines.

said he rose to a point of order. Was the hon. member entitled to read extracts from evidence given before the Select Committee on Native Affairs, evidence which had not been reported to the House. He understood the committee was still sitting.

I did not know that the hon. member was reading extracts from the evidence taken before a committee that was now sitting. Will the hon. member inform me if such is the case.

Yes, sir.

Well, the hon. member is not entitled to read from any evidence taken before a committee until that evidence has been reported and printed by order of this House.

said he regretted that he had fallen into an error, but they found that since they had been sitting 772 of these natives had died, or at the rate of 212 a month, and that when they had been listening to the strange advice from members opposite on cattle diseases, plant pathology, and so on, it was time that they had an inquiry into all these cases, so that they could have the necessary information. Unfortunately there were certain compounds in the Witwatersrand which were not put under the inspection of the Director, and the returns from these were indefinite. Probably he would be referred to the Tuberculosis Commission, and be told that they were inquiring into this; but he would point out that the chairman of that Commission was the Medical Officer of Health for the Transvaal, and the other was Medical Officer of Health for the Municipality. Without casting aspersions upon these two gentlemen, it would be very difficult for them to place this information, because it might trench upon their own work. It would be much better, he thought, to have an independent inquiry. The mortality meant a great deal more than the figures implied, because it meant the removal of the heads of families. (Hear, hear.) It was only the heads of families and the physically fit that they could take upon the mines. Un less they got reliable information of what was really taking place upon the Witwatersrand, they could not take adequate means to cope with the evil. He did not say that the natives on the Rand were badly treated, but it was time that they knew whether their health would be badly affected by going to the mines, and, if so, they should not be allowed to go there. He hoped, under these circumstances, that they would agree to his amendment.

seconded the amendment.

said he had listened with satisfaction to the hon. member who had last spoken, but he had failed to convince him that it was impossible for the Government to bring in a short Bill to deal with the more urgent point that had been touched upon by the hon. member for Springs. That Commission, if appointed, although it would do a great deal of good ultimately, and perhaps its appointment would be very desirable, yet seeing that this was a matter of life and death, unless this Bill was amended in the direction mentioned by the hon. member for Springs, a tremendous amount of suffering would be endured by men, women, and children on the Rand. Perhaps the mover would agree to have the amendment tacked on to the resolution ?

Continuing, he said that, broadly speaking, they felt that the compensation was totally inadequate. He referred to the case of a man who was on his way to Australia, and who was receiving £8 a month for twelve months. The Board agreed to repatriate him, but took off £2 a month from his allowance. Granted that the Board was within its rights, he thought that it was a very mean act. £8 a month in Johannesburg simply meant a state of semi-starvation. He then touched upon the case of a man who was charged with selling liquor to natives at Krugersdorp the other day. The man explained that he was in receipt of £8 a month for twelve months. He had a wife and four children. He had tried to obtain work, but had failed, and he had been driven to crime. It was in the minds of the House when the Bill was passed that, if men took the £8 a month at the very outset, there was a chance of their recovering; but, up to the present, the reverse had been the case, and the Government should recognise the fact that the man who was touched by the disease died in the end. He thought that these people should be compensated for life. It had been said that the men could have their cases reviewed, but what chance had applicants when the Board could hardly get through all the new cases that were being presented? He read a letter which an ex-miner, receiving £8 a month, had written to the Board, asking if he could get the rest of his compensation in a lump sum, so that he might go to Australia. The writer referred to the fact that he and his family were living in an abject state of poverty, and pointed out that they could not possibly live on £8 a month in Johannesburg. Proceeding, Mr. Andrews dealt with clause 2 of the Act—the list of mines—and referred to the case of a mine that claimed exemption, on the ground that it was not working.

The mine has been closed down for two years.

I know that. That should not prevent him, if he had contracted miners’ phthisis during the period prior to closing the mines, from claiming.

He can claim.

From that mine?

No; from the Board.

I hope that is so; I am not a lawyer. It seems to me that this mine would not have gone to the expense of fighting the Government if there had not been something behind it, something to be gained by being removed from this list. (Hear, hear.) I adhere to my point that there is something, and I ask the Government whether they are going to appeal to the Supreme Court and try and get a reversal of that decision. If not, will they introduce an amendment to the Act which will prevent such a thing happening in the future.

He agreed with the hon. member for Springs that the true solution of this question lay in placing miners’ phthisis under the Workmen’s Compensation Act as an industrial or occupational disease. Although the compensation allowed to natives was a miserable one, the sound principle was recognised in that connection. He should be interested to know how many natives since the Act was passed had claimed benefits under section 30 of the Act. There was at present undoubtedly no cure for the disease. He read the other day that a medical man on the Rand had been successful in some experiments in regard to a few men, and he hoped that good results generally would flow from this gentleman’s experiments. At present, however, they had got to look for the prevention of the disease. Prevention meant money, no doubt, and this money must come out of the pockets of the people who profited by the industry. Under clause 37 there was to be an investigation made into this disease as regarded its prevention and cure. That committee might be doing useful work, but they in that House did not know anything about it. Perhaps the Minister when he replied would tell them what the Board was doing, and whether they might expect some report as a result of their investigations. He was sorry that he could not support the amendment that had been moved, and he begged to move, as a further amendment, to add at the end of the original motion “and further of appointing a Commission to inquire into and report upon the keeping of proper health statistics of all employees, both European and coloured, on all mines falling under the Act.”

That is a portion of the amendment already moved.

The amendment already moved, is in substitution for the motion. This is to be added at the end of the motion.

seconded the amendment.

said that this was a vastly important subject, but no one would imagine, coming into that House, that they were discussing a matter affecting the lives and welfare of something like a quarter of a million souls. (Hear, hear.) He regretted more than he could say to find during a great part of the debate that some of those gentlemen who were deeply interested in mining had not even taken the trouble to listen to what was said. He wanted to say to the hon. member who moved this motion that he hoped he would not take any remarks he (Mr. Merriman) had to make in any sense of hostility to a question like this. First of all, he did not know why he should have been made a kind of whipping boy in this matter. He was not responsible for the administration of the Act at all. He went on to the Select Committee at the express wish of the House, and tried his best to make a workable Bill, in which he was greatly aided by the hon. member for Germiston. He did not think that they should cast too many stones at the mine-owners in this matter, who were, of course, as much embarrassed as anybody was, and indeed more so, because it affected not only their feelings as men, but also their feelings as conducting the affairs of large corporations for which they were responsible to the shareholders. This struck at the very root of the whole system of the Witwatersrand. His hon. friend in his criticism travelled a little beyond the terms of his motion in suggesting all kinds of amendments to the Miners’ Phthisis Act.

One was to put the miners’ phthisis under the Workmen’s Compensation Act. As they pointed out, slow as this process may be under the Miners’ Phthisis Board— and he would not say that it was slow considering that the Bill had not been working a year, and the machinery had got to be put into proper working order, in fact he thought they ought to be grateful to the Miners’ Phthisis Board for the way in which it had conducted its work—if they put it under the Workmen’s Compensation Act, what would be the result? A man would have to go into Court to prove his case. He had to prove that there was no contributory negligence and all the rest of it. It would be an infinite lot of trouble to get compensation under the Workmen’s Compensation Act. Therefore, the Select Committee thought they were doing a good thing for the men certainly, when they provided an easy and comparatively speedy way of getting compensation for these distressing cases. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member touched upon a very important matter and one to which he (Mr. Merriman) would like the Minister of Mines to pay a good deal of attention; it did not do to neglect these things, because they might be brought forward in rather a— well, a hostile manner, let him say—and that was the observance of the regulations in the mines. (Hear, hear.) The case he referred to in an interjection he had made was one that he took from a paper that they were good enough to send him always—he thought he was on the free list—a paper called “The Worker.” It was a very violent and intemperate paper— (laughter)—still it did not do to neglect facts, even if brought forward through a medium like this. This gave a circumstantial account of a man who broke the regulations by the orders—he (Mr. Merriman) did not know anything about it—of the mine manager. Apparently there was a kind of competition put up, and it was said that Mr. So-and-so broke so many fathoms with his marvellous machine, when the truth was that natives were placing and drilling holes while the white miner was in bed. This occurred on the Crown Mines. This paper went on to say that another nine men were made to work on Good Friday. On these Crown Mines—he thought it was one of them and he hoped he was not doing an injustice to them—he saw the other day that at a meeting of shareholders the chairman was extolling the admirable care they had for the men, because they were going to very great expense to sink a circular shaft in the drive. He omitted to state the fact that that particular part of the mines had been closed down by the order of one of our inspectors. That showed that in certain cases the inspectors did good work, and he believed they were doing their best. (Hear, hear.) In that way lay safety, and certainly judging from the results he was not quite satisfied as a member of the House responsible for the safety and welfare of these people in a secondary manner that they were carrying out that principle enough. He regretted very much that the motion he proposed for an independent Commission of Health apart from the Mines Department was negatived by the Select Committee last year. Now there was an official Commission going through the mines, and its report should be placed before the House, because the matter was a highly important one for the whole of the country. The Minister must not think that because the House was indifferent, empty, and inattentive, that the country was not awake to the importance of this matter, and some day it would be shaken out of its complacency. But the Minister was the man who would be blamed if there was any scandal like miners’ phthisis was last year. Therefore they must always be looking after these people.

He wanted to draw attention to a matter which had been touched on by the amendment of the hon. member for Zoutpansberg (Mr. Mentz). The miners had people who spoke for them in this House, but they seemed to be forgetting that there were two hundred thousand men in the mines who had hardly anyone to speak for them. (Labour cheers.) But the white miners knew what they were about when they accepted employment on the mines. They were free agents, but the others were swept into a net; they knew nothing of the health conditions and liabilities to disease. They perished, and we heard nothing more about them. It was appalling to think that seven thousand natives died every year in these mines, and if they added to that number the deaths of whites and the deaths caused by accidents, no less than ten thousand people died in these mines every year— people in the prime of life and health. The death-rate for natives was about three times that of healthy males. If they took the natives apart from those from the Cape and Natal, who were strong, they had a death-rate which was about three times that of ordinary healthy males, but if they took the natives from the Transvaal and Portuguese East Africa the death-rate was about four times that of ordinary healthy males. That took no account of natives who died from miners’ phthisis. Last year a horrible story was told in the Senate in which it came out that some men were shunted into the train in the last stages of disease and that they died on reaching Pietersburg. They were rushed away from the mines to die. But he did not see that any prosecution had followed. How many more cases were there like that? He had heard of other cases from the Transkei in which people were sent away from the mines to die on the roadside. “Yet we talk of being a paternal Government and keeping our faith with the natives. How do we look after them? (Hear, hear.) What about natives who are put to drill in unhealthy places at night without supervision? What prosecution takes place in that case? Either Mr. T. Matthews, who states this, is stating a deliberate falsehood, or else these things take place and there are no prosecutions. This mortality among the natives is most serious.

We have accustomed ourselves to think as if it were a mere matter of form that there are no inquests in the Transvaal. On the mines one hundred men die every month from accidents. It is true an enquiry is held by a mine inspector, but he may be the very man who is in the wrong through his neglect to see that proper precautions are taken. There is no greater scandal than the fact that there is no inquest law in the Transvaal, and that you have no inquiry into fatalities apart from those made by the police. There is no provision for evidence to be given. I do not think we are doing our duty until we do have an inquest law of some kind. No doubt it is excessively inconvenient to have a Coroner or a Magistrate poking their noses into matters which people think do not concern them. I cannot imagine a greater scandal than to have no provision for such inquest. Proceeding, Mr. Merriman said, in regard to statistics, there had been some very ugly revelations in regard to that matter. These statistics applied only to the whole body of workers, whereas the danger point was down the mines. He thought it was necessary that we should have an independent Commission to go into the whole of the health conditions of the Rand mines, and to see whether the measures taken were sufficient. That was most important, and the Commission should be an independent one. It would cost money, no doubt. “But,” exclaimed Mr. Merriman, “Lord, if it were a question of a new cattle disease we should already have cabled to England for an expert. (Opposition and Labour cheers.) Everybody in this country—I am as much to blame as anyone—we are all insensibly influenced by this gigantic industry, on which the whole of the welfare of the country depends. We cannot form an independent opinion on matters connected with that industry. Do let the Government get a Mining Inspector and a medical man, acquainted with the ventilation of mines, from England, and add a South African doctor, and have an enquiry which will be satisfactory to us.

Don’t let us give the thing up. Just see the work done on the Panama Canal. If the Americans had handled the Rand they would have had it cleansed somehow or other. The Americans made Panama as healthy as any place in the West Indies, and they did this through the efforts of a medical man who was given full power. When the American Government takes anything in hand, whether it is Cuba or Panama, it acts, and does not think whether this or that interest is going to be affected. We should attack the Rand in the same way, and surely the facts and figures, although we don’t know all of them, are such that we should cleanse that place, and try to do what we can to make the thing right. I know the Minister is a tender-hearted man, but I doubt whether we have taken sufficiently stringent measures. I suppose most of us were shocked when we first had the Blue-book about miners’ phthisis. It seems to be worse now, and almost hopeless. We don’t know the effect of the humidity and of pneumonia and tuberculosis, but we send infected natives out to spread death and disease among the whole native areas. But we shall probably wake up when it reacts on us. I am going to move an amendment in the sense in which I have spoken.

Proceeding, Mr. Merriman said they had only to give the order and proper statistics would be obtained. After the lesson they had learned, more statistics would certainly be got than they had had before, but what they needed a Commission for was to report upon the health conditions on the Rand to see if they could not get at the bottom of the thing, and therefore he proposed an amendment to add at the end of the original motion, “and further to consider the advisability of appointing a Commission to investigate and report on the health conditions on the Witwatersrand mines, and the adequacy or otherwise of the measures hitherto adopted to improve such conditions.” He hoped the Government would see that it was a Commission composed of such people as he had named, for they in this country were all more or less influenced by that great and dominating industry to which the country owed so much. They wanted an independent view of that matter, and he hoped they were going to got it.

seconded the amendment.

said he thought the hon. member for Zoutpansberg laboured under a delusion when in some extraordinary way he arrived at the conclusion that this was a party matter, and it was their duty to make things as unpleasant as he could for hon. members on the Opposition side of the House. When the hon. member had lived a little longer he would realise that that was not the way to get good business done. They on that side of the House were just as anxious as anyone else to get a proper solution of those difficulties which surrounded the working of the mines. It was rather unsatisfactory to have to deal with the question that afternoon, owing to the tactics adopted by the mover of the motion and the hon. member for Zoutpansberg, who had raised two distinct subjects. They had to deal first of all with the motion of the hon. member for Springs, who wanted the Miners’ Phthisis Act altered in order to give more adequate relief to sufferers from miners’ phthisis themselves. So far as the alteration of the Act went, he did not think anyone in that House would say the Act was perfect. Obviously, it was dealing with a vast amount of matter, the particulars of which were not familiar to many people, but if it should be found that the Act did not work no-one would say that the Government should not consider the advisability of altering it, but most of the matters which the hon. members for Springs and Georgetown raised were really matters of administration. There was the question of accommodation and various other matters brought forward, which could be solved by the Board without any further legislative sanction. Of course, there were one or two matters of principle. With regard to the want of discretion on the part of the Board in not paying out lump sums, if the Board thought the circumstances justified them in paying lump sums, there was no one to say them nay; it was only fair to say that, although the Select Committee made recommendations, the Board had absolute discretion in the matter. The Select Committee could do nothing more in the direction of making it possible for the Board to give lump sums where it was thought that lump sums were demanded. Evidence showed that many of those people thought that they could get a bit of land and live upon it, and they were to be sympathised with; but the Board would be wrong if they did not take into consideration the capabilities of applicants to undertake work of that sort. They should not place people in the position to squander the money, and those who were anxious to do their best, should not be allowed to let it dribble away in an unsuccessful venture. If it was found by experience that wider powers should be given to the Board, he could not conceive that the Government, or anybody on that side of the House, could object to those matters being further considered.

The members on the cross-benches had said that the total amount was not sufficient; but they had to draw the line somewhere, and if the compensation was double, some people would say that it should still be increased. What they should do now was to wait a little, and see how the Act, which had only been in force nine months, was going to work. The hon. members on the cross-benches also said there was nothing to show that there had been any improvement in those conditions, or to show that cases deserving compensation had diminished; but if the next period showed that there was no diminution in the number of bona-fide applicants, it would be a very serious thing, because it would show, in spite of the vast amount of progress made in the diminution of dust in mines, that that was not going to produce the desired effect. He was of opinion, however, that there had not been time to judge as yet. A large number of the people belonged to the older conditions. If it were proved at a later stage that those who had started work after the Act was passed were just as liable to the disease, that would be a serious state of affairs, and undoubtedly the House would have to consider the matter. With regard to the suggestions for an independent Commission, the point was: were the conditions on the mines such as to render a high death-rate inevitable. The question was whether that could be altered. The right hon. gentleman indicated that, if the Rand were managed by Americans, then the conditions would have been very much better than they were, and he pointed quite correctly to the improvements in the conditions at Panama; but he would correct the right hon. gentleman in two respects: they had had many eminent American engineers on the Rand, and he did not think that many of them would say for one moment that the conditions in the United States were better for the workmen than in South Africa. There was one other matter which was not so much a matter of principle as a matter of fact, and that was whether anything was being done. It was not his duty to defend the Government, but there was one thing he would like to say with regard to the query whether anything was being done to discover some means to obviate the diseases which were responsible for the mortality among the natives of the Rand.

Well, the greatest disease was that of pneumonia. He quite appreciated the hon. member’s statement that they could get more money for the eradication of stock diseases than for human diseases. That was quite true. If they wanted to get an examination of the blood of an ox he believed that they could get it free of cost, but if they wanted an examination of human blood a considerable fee had to be paid. Whatever had been done or not done by the Government, the mines certainly had done something. They engaged the services of Sir Almroth Wright, who was one of the greatest bacteriological experts, at a cost of something like £15,000; they did their best to get from him some means of counteracting this mortality. These experiments had been carried on continuously at the Bacteriological Institute, which had been established at a cost of £40,000. Very comprehensive experiments had been made in connection with the inoculation of these various systems, and he believed the results of stopping the inoculation had been followed by an immediate rise in the death rate of these tropical natives. Similar experiments had been proceeded with at the Premier Diamond Mine, where a considerable number of tropical natives had been employed. When the question of these tropical natives was before the House, it appeared that the death rate among Premier Diamond Mine natives was very high. It seemed therefore very creditable to the Premier Co. that as the result of their experiments they had succeeded in reducing the death rate very much. Well, if these results were so good they would be of great benefit to natives on the Witwatersrand. So far as private inquiries were concerned, he honestly thought they could do no more. He did not think that anyone could complain of the treatment of these natives upon the mines as regarded feeding, lodging, medical and hospital treatment. He challenged anyone to deny that they were well treated. As he had hinted, money was not begrudged in making experiments, so far as the mines was concerned. After all, why should they not do so? Putting it on the lowest motive, surely it was good business to diminish mortality, to diminish expense, and increase efficiency. Therefore, there was no possible ground for the suggestion that the mining people, at any rate, were indifferent in this matter. He would like to say that the hon. member for Zoutpansberg seemed rather to insinuate that the mining people had tried to shelter themselves behind an official, either of their own, or one belonging to the Native Affairs Department. He did not want to say anything about that—there was possibly carelessness on both sides, but he did want to say that he thought that the Minister of Native Affairs, if he were not occupied with other things, should know that if any information was wanted by the Native Affairs Department, that information was always forthcoming. If particular information with regard to tropical natives, which, it had been suggested, had been concealed, had been wanted by the department, there was no question whatever but they could have had it. The proof of this, it appeared to him, was that this information had been published two years running in the report of the Native Labour Association. Figures were adduced, and all particulars as to the diseases of which the natives died had been given. He did not think that there was any question that the fullest publicity would have been given if the Native Affairs Department had wanted it. As to the figures, the, position was this, that when the matter was before the House last, he said that if the death-rate kept up to the high percentage, then they would not be prepared to defend the employment of these natives. They hoped that the mortality would be reduced. As a matter of fact it had been considerably reduced during the three years ending 31st December, 1912. There was a steady decline of the death-rate until this year, when the death-rate in the W.N.L.A. compound had gone up.

In order to make it clear to hon. members what these compounds were, he would point out that these natives were put on arrival into these compounds for three or four weeks, to get acclimatised. They came down from these tropical countries in sometimes an enfeebled condition. He did not know the death-rate in their own country, but he assumed that it must be very high. As regarded the death rate since the end of the year the figures indicated by the Minister for Native Affairs of course showed that the death rate had been extremely high. What had happened was that during the first three months of the year there had been a very large amount of pneumonia which they had been unable to prevent and consequently the death rate had gone up. In April it had gone down. There were two points to be remembered in connection with the compound figures to which he thought due prominence had not been given. It was necessary to see how many actual deaths there had been and what proportion of the natives had been there any time. To say that there were 1,500 natives in a compound, and to say that the death rate was so large was hardly a fair comparison to make against a stationary population. When these 1,500 had been there three weeks another 1,500 came, and ex hypothesis these latter were predisposed to pneumonia and showed a high death rate. The figures, without making allowance for this, presented a worse appearance than should be. No account was taken in these figures of the large amount of tropical natives who spent a few days in the compound till the expiration of their contracts. He understood that the time was about three days before they were sorted into gangs and despatched to their homes. If they took this into consideration, for 1912, and took this together with the recruits whose death rate had been alluded to, they would find that there were considerable differences. During the year 1912, 17,071 recruits and 15,598 repatriates, making a total of 32,669, passed through the compounds. The total number of deaths amounted to 509, being 491 recruits and 18 repatriates. This worked out at 1.55 per cent or 15.5 per thousand if the 32,000 had been a stationary population. When talking of the rate per thousand, actual facts must be considered. He agreed that the death rate was high, but he would point out that the total death rate on the Rand in 1903, when there were only 3,000 tropicals, was 80 per thousand, which was much higher than it was at present. As the tropical death rate had not gone down nobody could quarrel with the determination of the Minister to stop recruiting. If the experiments proved successful, however, that would alter the whole position. He did not complain of the Minister’s action, but he did say he should have made it clear that there had been no attempts at concealment on the part of the mines. With regard to a Commission, he pointed out that the scope of the Tuberculosis Commission was extended so as to include an investigation into the health of the natives on the mines, and as they had not received the report of that Commission, it might be considered advisable to wait and see that report before appointing another Commission. The mines had nothing to hide, and if another investigation would lead to a solution of the problem, then the money spent on such a Commission would be well spent. At the same time, it was not right to leave the public under the impression that nothing had been done or that nothing was being done.

spoke as one who represented probably more phthisis sufferers than any other member in the House. He fully recognised that something had to be done for those people. The motion brought before the House was a fair one. He did not wish to attach blame to the Government for the manner in which the law was working. It would not be advisable in all cases to pay lump sums, for often in a very short time all the money would be gone. Some scheme must be devised by Government to find work on the land for these people, formally of them were able to do light work. They got £8 per month, but ought to have some work as well, as it was impossible to live in the town on that amount. Many of them had at one time done agricultural work, and they were asking for such work. He thought Government might employ these people in forestry work, which was healthy and was not difficult. Would the Government introduce a Bill to enable that to be done? He knew that the Minister of Mines had carefully investigated the conditions on the Rand, but the Labour members were not satisfied. They wished to place miners under the provision of the Workmen’s Compensation Act, so that everything had to be done by the mine-owners, and that was not fair. The men became miners with their eyes open. The previous speaker had complained that the Government did everything for cattle diseases and nothing for the diseases of men, but that was unfair. The Government had dealt with cattle plagues at the request of the Opposition. He did not know exactly where he was at the moment, as there were four amendments before the House, but he was nearly tired of voting for the appointment of Commissions. If the amendment of the hon. member for Victoria West was accepted, it would be thought that the Government were not doing their duty, and that was not so. If Government could not place miners’ phthisis sufferers on land, other work should be found for them. They did not require very high pay, but they wished to earn a little in addition to their £8. He did not know whether he could vote for any amendment. He wished first to hear the statement of the Minister. So far as Commissions were concerned, he thought they had already got enough of them.

said he quite agreed with the right hon. the member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) when he spoke of the great importance of this subject. He also agreed with him in deprecating the apathy displayed by the hon. member when any question affecting the health of the people was under discussion in that House. If it had been a question of brand ziekte, or lamziekte, the House would have been aflame, but when it was a question involving the loss of human life, very little interest was displayed.

By some.

by a considerable number of members in this House. Proceeding, he said he thought that every member would agree with the motion brought forward by the hon. member for Springs. Unfortunately, it meant very little. It was like many proposals which emanated from hon. members on the cross benches—much cry and little wool. He did not blame them on this occasion. Probably had they advanced a motion in the House on more definite terms, it would not have been accepted by the Ministry, because it might probably entail further expenditure. One strong point made by the hon. member for Springs was the great delay experienced between the time of submitting claims and these claims being considered. That was a point which the Board, in their report, admitted. They pointed out that they were handicapped not only by insufficient staff, but by insufficient accommodation. He thought it was the duty of the Government to see that a larger staff and better accommodation were provided. The hon. member for Georgetown had said that once a man was touched with this disease the end must inevitably be death. He could not agree with that. The hon. member had certainly cited a case which would have the sympathy of every hon. member in that House, the case of a man who for seven years had been away from mining, and who during that interval had attained high civic dignity. He quite agreed that dust might be quiescent in the lungs for some time, and that the setting up of inflammatory conditions might bring into activity the state of things existing. But he would like, in contra-distinction to that, to read a short extract from a letter he received only a few days ago, from a miner whom he diagnosed to be suffering from this disease three years ago. The writer said: “I am still looking forward cheerfully to the future. I know that I am steadily improving, and I feel sure that, if men who have developed phthisis went in for the fresh-air cure, as I did and am doing, it would enable them to build up their lungs, and take to something else besides mining, and make a living also.” The hon. member referred to a motion recently tabled by the hon. member for Denver, and said that his hon. friend, on being satisfied by the department that the Board already had power to confer the benefits asked for, and that they used their discretion in regard thereto, withdrew his motion. Alluding to the amendment of the hon. member for Zoutpansberg, Dr. MacNeillie said that the hon. member had based his entire claim on the light of statistics. Time and time again in that House he (Dr. MacNeillie) had advocated the establishment of a Department of Public Health. Now one of the first duties that would be relegated to that department would be the keeping of proper statistics, but he did not think that he had ever had much assistance from the hon. member for Zoutpansberg. In all cases, men should be medically examined before being employed as underground miners. He strongly supported the amendment of the right hon. member for Victoria West. If a Commission did nothing more, it would educate the people of the country to the importance of the question. (Cheers.)

said he did not know whether the House was going to come to a vote that evening, but the discussion had evidently shown that it took a serious view of the conditions on the Rand. The hon. member for Springs had brought forward certain points touching the administration of the Act. The number of cases of miners’ phthisis was rather more than they anticipated. They knew there was an accumulation of cases, but the men concerned remained in the mines. To a very large extent the men coming forward now had contracted the disease long before the Miners’ Phthisis Act came into operation. It was found that a man must have worked at least eight years underground before the disease showed itself. (Labour cries of dissent.)

Their average life is only seven years.

No, no. I will take it that it requires seven years before the disease shows itself. After a man has definitely contracted the disease in the last stages, the Commission found that the average life was not more than ten months, but it is a gradually-growing disease, and you cannot say how long an affected man may live, because it depends on the state of his lungs. The staff had been increased when it was found that the cases coming forward had not diminished. It was true there were complaints as to accommodation, but this was being attended to by the Public Works Department. A serious point made by the hon. member for Springs was whether the form of payment should be by annuity or lump sum. The principle of paying annuities was very fully discussed during last session, and the House, after the Select Committee had fully inquired into the matter, deliberately came to a decision, and it seemed to him too early at this stage to try and revise that decision. The number of cases that had received lump sums were certainly not insignificant.

A little over a third.

said the Board had gone on the principle that they had to deal with men in the last stages of the disease, and gave them the £8 per month so as to afford them some immediate relief. Almost up to the end of last year the Board did almost nothing but that. A number of those cases came up for revision, but the Board decided to go on giving immediate relief, and delayed somewhat the revision of cases that already had been afforded assistance. That no doubt explained some of the allegations as to delay. The machinery was working much more satisfactorily now than it did at the beginning.

Another matter was the question of the inspection of the mines. He had given that matter all the attention he possibly could. He undertook in the House last session that when the session rose he would put himself into a position to find out what the affairs on the Rand were in connection with that matter. The first step he took was to appoint a Chief Inspector of Mines and four assistant inspectors. That appointment was abolished by his predecessors some time before, but he found it was necessary to have a man to devote all his time to the supervision of the work of the ordinary inspectors and to the keeping of statistics. It had been shown that the appointment had proved very efficacious in that direction. The assistant inspectors were young men, and there was a possibility that there might be over-inspection, for if they took away too much responsibility from the management of the mines they might be doing more harm than good. There had not been a single complaint made either to the department or through a newspaper which had not been investigated by the department. He would like to have a return of the number of investigations made which had been found to be groundless. A considerable amount of time was taken up by what were ultimately found to be unfounded charges. It was a comparatively easy thing to write to the newspapers, and those communications were mostly anonymous, but when they were probed to the bottom they were generally found to be hearsay.

said that the hon. Minister should keep to his own information.

referring to a remark by the hon. member for Springs, said that if the hon. member brought forward a case where a man had been put on the black list he should do so, but to make a general charge was quite unfair. Proceeding, the hon. Minister said that the case of the Vogelstruis Deep entailed a rather important principle. He would explain in reference to that there were four mines not working at the time the Act came into operation. The question arose whether those mines not actually producing dust at the time, could be included in the list. The case was taken to the Courts, and the decision went against the Department, the judge basing his decision on the fact that the present tense was used in clause 2 of the Act, the reading being “is.” There were only a few mines affected, and they were small ones. He did not think that any of the miners who were working in those mines who had gone to any other mine were affected by that decision. There might be a few men who were working in those mines and had not been working in other mines during the last four years, and if so, they would not come under compensation, but the Vogelstruis Deep Mine was closed down for two years at the time those laws were framed. Even if the Department had won the case the mine would only have been made to pay for one year. The number of miners who would be affected would be very small indeed, and with the information he had before him he did not think it necessary to bring in amended legislation.

Proceeding, he said there were two amendments to the motion, one by the hon. member for Zoutpansberg, and the other by the hon. member for Victoria West, and those asked for a Commission of inquiry. He had looked into the number of inquiries that had been held during recent years dealing with health conditions on the Witwatersrand, and found that there had been five Commissions since 1907. In 1907 there was the Mining Regulations Commission, and in their references for the better protection of health and the safety of persons working on the mines were special references, including the prevention of accidents, ventilation, and underground sanitation, That Commission sat for two years, and largely the result the present regulations which came into operation in 1907 were framed. Then there was in 1911 the Miners’ Phthisis Medical Commission, from which the Miners’ Phthisis Act which they had at present was framed to a large extent, Then Sir A. Wright came out at the instance of the mines to inquire more particularly into the question of pneumonia. They had not then got the report of Sir Almroth Wright, and before they got his report they proposed another inquiry. The fourth inquiry was called the Miners’ Phthisis Prevention Commission. This Commission was a continuous body; they sought even to make experiments and report from time to time. The revision of the mining regulations were under consideration at the present moment, and the parties had been consulted. The amended regulations would be issued shortly, and he intended to devote some attention to the matter after Parliament, when the regulations would be published. Then they had a fifth Commission, which was called the Tuberculosis Commission, whose powers were widened by the Government after appointment. They were asked to inquire into and take evidence with regard to the extent of cases of death among natives and their liability to pneumonia. This Commission was presided over not by the medical officer for the Transvaal, but by Dr. Gregory, and composed mostly of men who had nothing to do with the mines. They had been at their work for very nearly 18 months, they had not yet reported, and his hon. friend (the Minister of Finance) said that they were not likely to report soon. Until they had their report one could hardly decide whether further investigation was desired. The Government was not prepared to say that they would not have an inquiry. If the amendment of the right hon. member for Victoria West was carried, then the Government would take the matter into consideration. With regard to the standpoint taken up by the hon. member for Zoutpansberg, that they should get better information from the Native Affairs Department, the Minister for Native Affairs had said that he was taking the question into very serious consideration, and they might rely upon it that he would look into the matter Then with regard to the adequacy of payment, if they contemplated by that the altering of the maximum amount, then he could hold out little hope that any consideration would have any definite result. If the hon. member meant, however, that a lump sum would be preferable, that was a matter for consideration, but the time for interfering with the maximum laid down by the Act had not yet arrived. Besides, to increase the payment of benefits would disturb the solvency of the Funds, unless provision were also made to increase the contributions.

moved the adjournment of the debate.

The motion was agreed to, and the debate adjourned till the 28th.

said he had received a message from the Senate retransmitting the Transfer Duties Bill, with one amendment for the concurrence of the House of Assembly. The amendment was in the schedule for the revision of the Acts.

pointed out that the effect of the amendment was absolutely nil. Unfortunately in the schedule of Acts under revision an omission was made, which they now sought to rectify.

The amendment was agreed to.

moved that the petition from C. Bramley and J. R. Dyer, Curators of the Randjeslaagte Syndicate, and of Carl Jeppe and others, members of the said syndicate, praying that the House may inquire into their claim against the Government for a moiety of the proceeds of sale of certain piece of reserved ground, known as Von Brandis Square, in Johannesburg, presented to this House on the 23rd April, 1913, be referred to the Government for consideration. The mover said he did not know all the merits of the case, but as far as he could he would briefly state them to the House. He pointed out that the House had already refused a Select Committee, but having been asked to move he could only leave the matter to the House.

said that the matter had been fully considered by the Government and decided by the Courts. It opened up the great question of whether the Union Government was responsible for the debts of the old Transvaal and O.F.S. Governments. The Court had decided that the Union Government was not responsible and he should not accept the motion.

The motion was negatived.