, from J. McGregor, of Elliot, who, after over 19 years’ service in the Frontier Armed Mounted Police, was granted a pension which was discontinued upon his subsequently being appointed Sheep Inspector for the district of Elliot, praying that the House may grant him a pension for the period during which he served as Sheep Inspector and authorise the arrear payment of his pension from the date it was discontinued, or for other relief.

, from F. J. Hendricks, on behalf of J. F. Hendricks, who is incapacitated by blindness from signing his own name, and who, after having served as a police constable at Malmesbury for three years, sustained an accident which destroyed his eye-sight, praying that the House may consider his circumstances and grant him a pension, or for other relief.

from H. D. Wickens and 23 others, praying that they may be allowed to purchase land in the village of Zwartkops, Kenhardt, which was surveyed for village settlement purposes, but of which only six erven were sold.

brought up the seventh report of the Select Committee on Public Accounts, as follows:

Your committee, having considered the memorandum in regard to loans made to co-operative wineries in the Cape of Good Hope (U.G. 14—’13) referred to it, begs to report as follows:

It appears that while the total liabilities of these companies to the Government is £100,320, it is proposed to write off £54,320. It has not been possible for your committee to make any detailed investigation into the affairs of these companies nor to form any opinion as to the advisability of adopting the proposed arrangements.

Your committee, however, strongly recommends that if any substantial concession is made to the companies, the balance of the indebtedness should be more fully secured than has been provided for in the memorandum under consideration, and that the co-operative principle as contained in the Transvaal Act should be accepted and adopted by each of the companies so assisted.

Your committee would also recommend that those Co-operative Associations which pay no trading licences should be kept strictly to the purpose for which they were established, viz., handling the produce solely of their members.

The report was set down for consideration on Monday next.

announced that His Excellency the Governor-General, having been informed of those provisions of the Natives Land Bill, which may have the effect of interfering with the Crown, its lands, or other prerogatives, gives his consent, in so far as His Majesty’s interests are concerned, that this House may do therein as it shall think fit.

rising amid cheers, said that, in moving the second reading of the Natives Land Bill, he hoped he would say nothing to detract from the importance of the matter dealt with. The problems arising out of the relations between Europeans and natives were so complex and so difficult that one often despaired. The Bill only dealt with a phase of that large question, and he hoped the object aimed at would be attained, and that the bulk of the people affected by it would consider it as reasonable. That could not be done unless they had the interests of a large class at heart, and acted in a spirit of fairness (Hear, hear.) Recently there had been a good deal of discussion on the question of segregation. Personally, he had never been able quite to understand what that meant. If it meant that there must be a complete separation between Europeans and natives, so that they would not come into daily contact with each other, then it was an impossible proposal. The provisions proposed under the Bill were far less drastic than what some people meant by segregation, and, he hoped, far more feasible. He proposed in this Bill that the bulk of the two races, the European and the native, should live in the main in separate areas —(hear, hear)—that was, that they should occupy and acquire land in separate areas. It, therefore, did not deal with those, and they were a very considerable number, who went to European centres to obtain work. Section 1 of this Bill referred to the consent of the Governor-General having to be obtained under certain circumstances, and that implied a very important principle. Some people talked of provisions which would make make it absolutely impossible for a European to acquire land in certain areas, and for natives to acquire land in other areas.

In the areas?

No, that was all over the different Provinces, excepting the scheduled areas. In the areas, other than the scheduled areas, the sale and purchase between natives and Europeans was stopped. (Hear, hear.) Europeans could not buy from the natives, nor could the natives from the Europeans. The next provision was in sub-section 2, which said that if any person was in lawful occupation or if any person was in agreement of lease and was lawfully in occupation, he could not be moved until two things had happened. One was that the land upon which he was had been proclaimed a non-native area, and until land had been pointed out to which he could be moved. This might be called a sort of provisional arrangement. Then provision was made for the appointment of a Commission. It would be remembered that a Commission was appointed in 1903 which had recommended that certain areas should be set aside by the Legislature within which only natives should reside. It was proposed to appoint a Commission with very considerable powers, and this Commission was to report mainly on two things. It was to inquire and report on the area that was to be a non-native area, that was the area within which no native except with the consent of the Governor-General could acquire land. It would also have to report on the setting apart of additional native areas. The proposals of the Commission would then be submitted to Parliament, and after Parliament had approved of them a Proclamation would be issued defining the areas. The effect of such a Proclamation would be that no native could then purchase land in a non-native area, and no person who lawfully occupied land at that time would be moved except an additional native area had been proclaimed to which he might go. Section 6 provided that in the scheduled areas and the additional native areas Europeans would be under the same disabilities with regard to the hire and purchase of land as natives in non-native areas, except that the Governor-General might in certain cases consent to such hire and purchase. Provision in this connection was also made in regard to municipalities. After a Proclamation had been issued proclaiming non-native areas, provision was made that so far as municipalities were concerned, unless the local authority set aside lands where natives could hire or purchase, the provisions of this Bill would not apply.

White owners?

White owners.

Throughout the Union?

No; only Natal. Continuing, he said that there were 119,000 squatters on private land not occupied by owners—the absentee gentlemen.

Crown land?

On private land. Continuing, he said that in addition to those he had given in Natal, there were 57,000 squatters on Crown lands as above stated. So in the Cape they had 22,000 on land occupied by owners, 5,600 on land not occupied by owners. In Natal they had 380,000 squatters on private land, and in addition to the 57,000 on Crown land. In the Transvaal there were 142,000 squatters on private land occupied by owners, 174,000 squatters on private land not occupied by owners, and to that must be added 65,000 squatters on Crown land, which made a total of nearly 381,000. In the Orange Free State there were 73,000 squatters on private land occupied by owners, 7,000 squatters on land not occupied by owners. It came to this, that the Cape, Natal, the Transvaal, and the Orange Free State had no less than 806,000) squatters on private lands, and the total number of squatters on private land and Crown land was 928,000. He was happy to say that a large proportion of these would not be affected by the Bill, as he would explain later on.

Women and children?

Oh, yes—the total population. At least, I should hope so. (Laughter.) If they took the land occupied by natives, and the land not occupied by natives, they would get the result more or less showing the distribution of the population. In the Cape there were 83,633,000 morgen of land, and the area reserved by the Government for native purposes since the establishment of the Cape as a Colony amounted to 5,975,000 morgen, and this worked out at 3.9 per morgen per head of the native population. Altogether there were 10,671,000 morgen in Natal, and the land reserved by Government for natives and in occupation at the present time amounted to 3,000,000 morgen, or 3.1 morgen per head of the native population. With regard to the Transvaal, he was afraid there was something of a falling off. The total area was 33,032,000 morgen, and the area reserved by the Government 882,000 morgen, which gave as the result .7 per head of the native population. It was only fair to add that it would be somewhat more because the Transvaal had a very considerable proportion of natives that came from various other parts of South Africa— from the Cape and Portuguese territory especially. Therefore the Transvaal would show better if they deducted the extraneous population of the Transvaal. Then as regarded areas reserved in the Free State for native occupation they found that 74,289 morgen were so reserved out of a total area in the Free State of 15,243,000 morgen. This would give 2 morgen as the unit per head of the native population. In the Transvaal the natives were allowed to occupy land indiscriminately, and had done so to a far greater extent than in other parts of South Africa. The total area of the Union was 142,000,000 morgen, and of that 9,932,000 morgen had been reserved in different places for native occupation. In addition to that there were 240,000 morgen of land included in scheduled area in the Transvaal which had been acquired privately by natives, and which had been occupied by them. This land had been acquired by them, and therefore had to be added to the schedule area. The figures that he had given were to a large extent approximate, and the officials who had rendered infinite labour in this matter, had endeavoured to get as near to the totals as possible. The total amount of land which natives occupied in South Africa, otherwise than in municipalities or in service amounted to 10,843,000 morgen, practically going on for 11,000,000 morgen.

Is that land held by natives in trust?

The land held by native trusts is not a scheduled area. This is land privately acquired by natives.

Must he be full blooded or half?

I do not think this is an occasion that we need to debate that. Proceeding, Mr. Sauer said he was not at all easy about the definition. (Hear, hear.) It was not an easy matter, and he had never seen in any legislation in South Africa a definition which could be called wholly satisfactory. They might have a negro coming here from the Southern States of America or Liberia, and obviously these people should not be put in a better position than our own aboriginal natives, for whom the vast majority of the people had kindly feelings; at a later stage he would endeavour to alter the definition.

asked whether the Minister would kindly repeat what he had said in Dutch. The matter was one of the utmost importance, and he would be glad to know what the Minister had said.

said the hon. member for East London was about to address the House.

said that the Minister in the course of an interesting speech had explained the Bill, and put before the House a fair construction of the measure. They had been unable, however, to follow the mass of figures that he had quoted, and he hoped that every figure would be placed on the Table of the House, because they were of the utmost interest. His only regret was that the Bill had been brought before the House at such a late stage of the session, but he could quite understand the many difficulties against which the Minister had had to contend, especially after his predecessor had set the country a little about the ears by his speeches on segregation. This, however, was one of the most important matters that had been brought before that House. In it lay the future of the two races, in it the solution of the whole of the future of South Africa, because there was nothing of greater importance to South Africa than this question of native affairs, and the policy as to Europeans and natives. If he criticised or suggested what might appear like delay, or suggested any course that should be followed he would only do so for the purpose of facilitating the settlement of what was to be done. There were vested interests, both European and native, and in the interests of the good government of the country those people who were most concerned must be heard if only shortly. This was no new question. Throughout the country for a considerable time there had been shown to be a general desire that a settlement should be arrived at with regard to the land question. With regard to the speeches that were made by the hon. member for Smithfield—no doubt that hon. member had intended to do good—he could only say that the terms he used in some of his speeches did alarm the country. He used, for example, the word “segregation.” What did that word mean? He thought that the hon. gentleman at the time hardly knew what he meant. Complete and absolute segregation was, as the Minister had said, an absolute impossibility. What could be done was the territorial separation of land owned by Europeans and natives. That principle was scarcely a new one. The Native Affairs Commission of 1903-5 proposed the principle of the separation of land owned by Europeans and natives. The country was, to some extent, prepared to consider this very important measure before them, but there were many vested interests that would have to be considered before the Bill passed. He was certain of this, that the problem of native affairs which had to be solved, could not be solved by this or by any other Bill. The native question would be with them for all time. No short cuts to a solution were possible. All they could hope to do was, from time to time, as was necessary, and when necessary, to pass legislation in the spirit of absolute justice, for the subject races of this country, and that in the future whatever alterations were made, the natives would always be given to understand that that House was there to protect their interests as they were not, to any great extent, represented in that House. He was sure that that House would always do justice to the subject races. He was able to approach this matter in no party spirit, for the reason, among others, that in the last years of the Cape Parliament the right hon. member for Victoria West did a thing which was reflected that day—he then proposed a Select Committee on Native Affairs on non-party lines, and for two or three years that Committee dealt in a non-party spirit with questions quite as burning as those in other provinces in South Africa which had come into prominence since Union.

The Minister of Railways and Harbours when he was Minister of Native Affairs, pursued the same course, and now they had a Select Committee in that House which was non-party, which represented native views, which represented views the other way, and which considered native matters without party spirit or feeling. Last year the former Minister of Native Affairs, the hon. member for Burghersdorp, brought in a Squattars Bill. In that Bill there was an honest endeavour to deal with this matter, but the fault of the measure was that no special provision was made for the acquisition and delimitation of new areas. They must remember that these people had been on the land many years, and they could not move them off without providing additional areas for them. There were two or three aspects of the question— ownership, leasing, and squatting. The present proposals were not novel. They only followed the wise policy adopted in the Cape in the Glen Grey Act, by which natives were protected in the occupation of their land. He was in sympathy with the underlying principle of this Bill—separate occupation for natives and Europeans who would not come into competition with one another in defined areas—and he believed that this was a solution of the whole trouble of the native land question. The Minister had referred to the report of the Native Affairs Commission, and he was certain that the solution they offered in 1905 was the only possible solution. He would remind the House that the present Bill, while it was a new Bill, was an addition to, and not a substitution of, Acts that existed at the present time. Experience in the Komgha district had shown how impossible it was for natives and Europeans to live side by side, and there was no doubt that it was bad for both. That matter was dealt with by the old Cape Parliament. The evidence which the committee had had with regard to Rustenburg showed that the time had arrived when in districts like that something must be done with a condition of affairs that was becoming more dangerous. One point that gave him satisfaction, and he thought it would give satisfaction to many members in that House, was the provision made for the setting apart of fresh areas for native occupation. Dealing with the Transvaal, the Minister was inclined to lay the trouble of the squatters at the door of the speculator. It was not the speculator; he was merely the purchaser and the inheritor of the trouble. The Minister was also inclined to lay stress on the position of the land companies. The Minister wanted to show that the land companies were the worst offenders. True they had 100,000 squatters, but the farmers had just the like number. There was another point to which he would like to draw attention. There were thus 200,000 natives in unlawful occupation, because no agreement would be made with them which was legal, and for them the Bill made no provision. He did not think that they could drive these people off without providing fresh land for them. He thought that provision should be made to ensure that these people who were in possession illegally to-day should remain until such time as land was set aside for them; otherwise a very serious position might arise, because owners would be inclined to send natives off their farms, because the Bill emphasised the fact of their illegal occupation, and because there were pains and penalties in the Bill. He believed it was not the intention of the Minister to drive people away who had been in possession of ancestral lands. Ministries changed sometimes very frequently, but he did not think that any Ministry would be inclined to take the risk. The main underlying principle of the Bill was, as he had stated already, to separate Europeans and natives and to set aside land for native reservation.

The coloured people—those whom they generally classified under that term—were not affected by the measure, though they remained under the same disabilities in the Free State as heretofore. The next important point was the appointment of a Commission, whose duty would be to recommend amongst other things certain additional native areas to the House. With their experience in the selection and appointment of commissions since they entered into Union, there would be some desire to know, not only who actually would be chairman of the Commission, but who the members of the Commission would be. He was perfectly certain that the future prosperity of the native people, and their future acceptance of this, or any other law, would be largely dependent upon the fair-mindedness of that Commission, and therefore it would be much better if they knew who the members of the Commission would be. There were missionaries who had done a great deal of good to many of the native races, and a great many people also, whose interests might escape notice, and he was convinced that, unless they knew the composition of the Commission, there would be an outcry. Hitherto they had protected natives in the occupation of their land, and they must tell them they were going to apply the same principles to Europeans as well as to them. He noticed, on referring to clause 15, sub-section (2), that the Province of the Cape would be legislated out. He could quite understand that the Minister desired to protect the native franchise, and that there were difficulties as regarded land tenure, because the franchise necessitated occupation or ownership of land. But it was doubtful whether this sub-section (2), clause 5, as it now stood, actually safeguarded the rights that the Minister desired to safeguard. Who was to decide whether a native was affected when he came to purchase land? It depended on how the law was interpreted.

We shall interpret it in the right way.

I have no doubt the Minister will, but he may not always be there, and it will require very careful attention. The Cape Province was legislated out, and this meant that Europeans were protected throughout three provinces of the Union, but not in the Province that was the largest of all. The danger was that the European residents of the Cape Province who were in sympathy with the native policy in the past as regards the native franchise might think, as an outcome of this, that it was their duty to take up a different attitude, and would refuse to be punished for their fair attitude towards the native races. Taking this view, he objected to the Cape Province being legislated out of the Act. It was his intention to move that the motion for the second reading be discharged, and the subject matter of the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Native Affairs for consideration and report. He moved this because, in the calm atmosphere of the Committee Room, they could give opportunity to missionaries and leading natives to come before the committee, and he was perfectly convinced they were not in the least likely to jeopardise the Bill or to lengthen the proceedings, but on the contrary be believed they would facilitate matters. He realised, from sitting on the Native Affairs Committee, that it was necessary that the House should arrive soon at a solution of a question that was of the utmost importance in the Transvaal, and the utmost importance in the Free State. There was in that House a reasonable desire to arrive at some solution, but he was perfectly certain it would not be arrived at if it was their intention to force a highly-contentious Bill, bristling with difficulties, through the House.

There were many other details which, he thought, he need not deal with here, because he hoped the Minister was going to accept the motion to refer the Bill to Select Committee. It was not with any hostile desire that he moved this motion. There were other details in the Bill, for example the question of the municipalities. This was one of the questions which required very grave consideration, and it would be necessary to have some evidence or at any rate some information upon points connected therewith. Something would have to be done to provide that those 200,000 people in unlawful occupation were not at once dispersed from their homes. He thought it would be possible in committee for the Minister to give them some idea as to who were the members whom he proposed to appoint on the Commission. He was not sure that it would not be advisable to take Chapter 1 of the Bill, providing that the fresh acquisition of land and the fresh occupation of land both by natives and Europeans in certain areas, should be restricted, and add something which would safeguard the franchise of the Cape native, and he was not sure that it would not be wise to take that chapter and add to it such provisions as may be necessary, and add to it also provisions for the appointment of the Commission, and then let the Commission do a great deal of the work which the remainder of the chapters now proposed to set up. That might possibly be a solution of the task. But he did say this, they should at least endeavour in these days of Union to provide for the whole of the Union in future legislation dealing with native or any other affairs. They were only going to create fresh difficulties if they legislated this Province or that Province out of the provisions of any particular Bill. It was with an honest desire to arrive at a fair anti reasonable solution that he moved to omit all the words after “that” for the purpose of inserting the following words: “the order for the second reading of the Natives Land Bill be discharged, and the Bill referred to the Select Committee on Native Affairs for inquiry and report.”

seconded the amendment.

said he did not know what attitude the Government intended to adopt, but it appeared to him that the present motion was one of various plans by which it was possible to destroy the Bill. The hon. member had complained that the Bill had been brought forward so late, and now he wanted to refer it to a Committee! The present was one of the best measures that the Government had so far brought forward, and it appeared clear that they had a Government which truly represented the wishes of the public. It was impossible to delay the solution of the native problem, and legislation on the subject had for a long time past been asked for. To be sure the Bill did not go so far as he (the speaker) would have desired, but at any rate it affirmed the principle of the separation of whites and blacks, and that was a step in the right direction, with which he was in entire agreement. The purpose of the Bill was to prevent the purchase of land by natives white districts, and that was a good thing. It also made an end of the system of hiring ground on the share system, and it put a stop to squatting. Both of those things were good. At the same time he did not entirely agree with the methods proposed to be applied, and he did not like the system of allocating reserves for natives. When once those reserves had been allocated, would it not result in injury to agriculture and cattle breeding? The farmers would suffer from lack of labour, and that deficiency would be a growing one. At the present time the farmer had to take off his coat, his children had to go to school, and now his workmen would be taken from him, and he would stand alone. What could a farmer do by himself? Nothing, Neither could he agree to the principle of expropriation of land belonging to whites in order to increase the size of the native reserves. He was opposed to the principle of expropriation, and vested rights should, in his opinion, be left untouched. It was now proposed to expropriate those rights at a normal valuation, and that was unjust. Should a farmer be unwilling to dispose of his land, the law could compel him to do so, and that was totally wrong. He was glad to learn, however, that reciprocal provisions applied in the case of land held by natives. He considered the Bill was a complicated one. The matter should be settled by way of taxation, in the following way. All natives who were in the service of whites should be exempted from taxation, and treated as well as possible, and other natives should be encouraged to take similar service. Then the natives who only worked now and then and wandered around the country should pay a tax of £1. It was the squatters and the natives who dwelt in locations who were the undesirable element. They lived in locations in order that their children should get education. It was a mystery how those natives lived—but the neighbouring farmer knew well enough, as he was continually missing his sheep. It was not necessary to drive those people out of the location. There were enormous reserves where the natives could go and live, and if they refused to go there, they should be required to pay a stiff tax. Then they would go and work for white people. He hoped that the Minister and the Select Committee would take notice of his suggestions. The hon. member for Tembuland had offered many objections to the Bill. They should make the hon. member king of Tembuland. In a country of the blind a man with one eye would be king.

said he hoped the Minister would not take the view of the last speaker, who had remarked that the amendment of the hon. member for East London was intended to prevent the Bill passing this session. He (Mr. Duncan) could assure the House that that was not the case. The Opposition recognised the importance of the step that had been taken, but it was exercised in its mind as to whether the Bill dealt with the evils in the best possible way. Whatever was done to put this question of the tenure of land on a different footing from the present, must be done in a manner which would last. (Hear, hear.) It was a question on which policy should not be allowed to chop and change. If we took a step in the wrong direction it would not be easy to reverse it. We should not make a move until we were satisfied that we were going in the right direction. Everyone would agree with the principle enunciated by the Minister that it was to the best interests of Europeans and natives that points of social contact should be reduced to the least possible area. (Hear, hear.) Well, everyone would agree that even if this Bill were passed, it would only effect a reduction of points of social contact to a very small amount, and not enough to counteract what was being done in other spheres of activity to increase the points of contact. Where was it that these points pressed with the most unfortunate results? It was not so much on the land as in the towns. So far from attempting to diminish the area of contact in the towns every year the most strenuous efforts were being made, with the assistance of the Government, to increase the points of contact and bring in natives from outside the Union for our own industrial purposes. The Minister had told us that he hoped that steps would be taken to limit the importation of uncivilised natives from outside the Union. Unfortunately they had heard another statement from another member of the Government in absolute variance to that. When Government went so far as to introduce a Bill such as that which was going to limit to a serious extent rights which now existed, it ought to make up its mind on a matter which had a much more serious influence on the trouble than the purchase of land, and that was the stoppage of the increasing points of social contact in industrial areas. The Bill did not provide for segregation, and it did not even attempt to stop what he might call the social contact which took place on the land by the use of native labour by farmers. Under the Bill it would be possible for farmers to accumulate on their land as many natives as they could get, so long as they could use them as servants. (Labour cheers.) So, far as he could see, even if it were carried out to the extent that it was proposed to go, it would not very much reduce the social contact which at present existed between whites and natives. The vast majority of the natives in South Africa would not be cultivators on their own account, but they would be labourers on the land or in the industrial areas, and social contact would not be diminished to any extent. Proceeding, he said they had to consider whether the results which were likely to be attained by the Bill were sufficient to justify the serious restrictions which were placed upon the existing rights of Europeans as well as natives. A large amount of land was scheduled to be kept out of European occupation. They ought to examine carefully the restricting of the rights of the educated natives from acquiring land except in certain areas. The native was not only merely prohibited from selling his land to Europeans, but also from seling it to other natives.

There was another point which he thought was a serious one, that while the Bill imposed certain restrictions, it did not deal with certain other restrictions which existed at present, and which he thought owed their existence to prejudice. He did not think the Minister would be prepared to go so far, for instance, as to prohibit civilised coloured men from buying land in the Cape or Transvaal Provinces outside the scheduled areas. He did not go so far as that, but why did he leave on the Statute-book in certain Provinces provisions which did go as far as that. The hon. Minister and those who supported him should have the moral courage to sweep away restrictions which could not be justified. They were told that the purchase of land by natives was encroaching upon the European area, but in what form was it encroaching? Was it a case of natives coming along and buying the land as ordinary farmers in the usual way.

I think so.

Did the hon. member mean to tell him there were many individual natives who were able to hold and own land under individual tenure in the same way as Europeans did? They bought it to bring hundreds of others to squat on it as a tribe, and use it in a communal form. There were very few individual natives who had arrived at that standard of civilisation that they could buy land, and use it as against the European. To his mind, steps ought to be taken to stop that encroaching of what they might call tribal occupation of land upon European areas, and in so far as the Bill did that they ought to support it. But what he did not like about it was that it took away from the civilised natives, if they desired to do so, the opportunity of buying except with the consent of the Government. He would like to see some recognition of the right of the civilised natives or coloured men to enable them to buy land in European areas if they desired to do so, otherwise the effect would be to drive the superior native back to his less civilised people, and to do a thing like that would be fatal to those who did it. The most effective way of preserving the European areas in this country against encroachment by the natives was, in his opinion, the proper use of the land which was occupied by the European. If the land in the European areas was occupied by owners who were willing and able to use it in a manner befitting European civilisation, there was no danger of the natives competing with them in the occupation of that land. The only protection, if they wanted protection, they could get was to bring on to that land men who would occupy it effectively. There was no other way by which the Europeans could hold the land as against the encroachment of the native. If they thought that by keeping land out of use, and by setting a fence round it against people coming here, they were keeping a heritage for their children, he thought they were mistaken. They would be doing their best to take away that heritage by setting up a ring fence as indicated by some of the speeches that had been made that afternoon, and if they were first going to settle the thousands of poor people on the land before they brought in others, it was a policy that would lead them straight to disaster. No amount of restrictions, or laws, whether prohibitive or penal, or of any other kind, would do any good if they did not make more whole-hearted efforts to get Europeans on the land. He thought they would not be wise in putting this Bill into operation before the Commission that was to be appointed had presented its report. He knew it would be argued on the other side that something would have to be done at once, else speculators would rush in and purchase land that might be required, and so complicate the situation. He thought that the House was shouldering a big responsibility when it was asked to agree to a long schedule which represented hundreds of thousands of morgen—to say that this land should be locked up for European occupation and that natives should have no right to buy or lease certain areas—on information which he must say was anything but adequate. That was one of the reasons why he thought it desirable that this Bill should go to a Select Committee. He thought that the fact that the House was being asked to agree to a schedule of that kind was a strong argument in favour of sending this Bill to a Select Committee. He thought it would be better for the Select Committee to deal with the measure before they passed its second reading. There was no objection anywhere to what the hon. member for East London had described as the underlying principle of the Bill. Such objections as had been put forward were on the point as to whether the Bill was going to have any real effect commensurate with the restrictions, on the liberties and rights of the people, and the locking up of such a large area of land. He did not know whether the result would justify these stringent restrictions on Europeans and natives, and whether it would not have a bad effect on the development of the greater part of this country. He thought that a Bill such as that, dealing with a part of the vast question of the relationship between white and black, should be accompanied by other measures dealing with the evils that more strongly existed in the industrial areas, and opening the land of the country, instead of putting a wire fence round it.

said he had listened with pleasure and satisfaction to the speech of the hon. member for Fordsburg. The hon. member had made a study of the native question, and during the recess had written a pamphlet on the subject. The speaker had read that pamphlet, but after reading that pamphlet and after hearing his speech one heard a sort of despairing cry—“nothing would help.” Nothing would help except immigration. Well, the speaker was not opposed to immigration of the right sort, but even so it would not solve the native problem. Whatever a man’s ideas might be on the subject of immigration, those ideas should not stop him from taking steps to solve the native problem. Certainly a settlement of the question would not be easy to bring about, but the time was now come when they should lay down the foundations of a good relationship between the white man and the native, that relationship which was so desirable. The present Bill provided the foundations on which they could continue to build. It was laid down in the Bill that districts would be set aside for natives, and that within those districts white persons would not be allowed to own land, and vice versa. There was, however, a proviso that the Governor-General could permit natives to own land in the districts set aside for whites, and the speaker was unable to endorse that provision. He agreed with the hon. member for Fordsburg in saying that when once land was set aside for the natives it should never be taken from them. The hon. member for Fordsburg had stated that he did not believe there were many natives who would personally buy land for themselves. There were in fact cases of that sort, although it was true it was not done on so large a scale as some people thought. The natives first as a tribe bought the ground, and after that three or four of them made a plan to buy a farm, for a Kafir was the most absolute communist that existed. Individual natives were now beginning to buy ground for their own use. The hon. member had stated that the economic condition of the native was of such a character that he could not compete with the white. But did the hon. member know that the native was able to offer a higher price for ground than the white? A native was ready to pay much more because the ground became in fact inalienable. His needs were not very great, and he could easily exist with many others on one farm. That was why the native was able to pay a higher price. The hon. member had said that the Bill contained no provision limiting the number of natives who could be kept on a given farm by the farmer. The speaker wished to make it quite clear that hon. members on his side of the House did not intend to leave that position of affairs unchanged. The Bill was a preliminary measure, and it contained no provisions concerning squatting. After that Bill had become law it would be possible to introduce another dealing with squatting, and then he would be in favour of inserting a provision in it limiting the number of squatters for each farm owner. The Bill was thus a preliminary Bill, and the number of squatters was not limited so long as they were in the continuous service of the landowner. That would certainly be changed as soon as the native reserves had been allocated, and when it had thus become possible to bring forward a proper Squatters Bill. The present Bill was a necessary one if they wished to take a sound step forward in the direction of establishing the relations which should exist between the whites and the natives. The squatting evil was an evil to which they would have to put an end. He quite admitted that it was a very troublesome question to settle until they had first affirmed the principles contained in the present Bill. If they wanted to remove squatters from ground which they were at present unlawfully occupying, then it was necessary that they should be in a position to point out to them other ground to which they could go. In that respect the Bill was a necessary one. It was further necessary in order that the practice of natives buying land should not go on undisturbed. They did not wish to do anything which would do a mischief to the natives, or which would be unjust towards them. If anything were proposed to the injury of the native, he would be one of the first to oppose it. If any attempt, were to be made to do anything of that sort they would have a heavy score to pay afterwards, for he who sowed the wind would reap the storm. Well, he did not belong to those sentimental persons who wanted to give more rights to the natives than to the whites. The native must retain the rights which he enjoyed at present, and so also the white. The position of the white must remain unimpaired. It was said that the native had more rights in this country than the white, because he had been here many more years than the white man had been. The white man had, however, bought his rights by reason of the great sacrifices which he had made for the civilisation of the country. Just think of the condition of the Transvaal when the Voortrekkers arrived there. The natives were all in small groups—all of them who remained—and they had crept away into the holes and kloofs of the mountains out of fear of Moselekatse. By the making of large sacrifices the whites had changed all that, and those sacrifices had given the white man the right to maintain his position, though it was true the obligation rested on him to see to it that no injustice was done to the natives. Segregation had been spoken of. Well, he was not an authority on that subject, but he feared that that policy was not a practicable one. The provisions of the present Bill were, however, practicable enough, namely, those for the segregation of land ownership. That kind of segregation was recommended not only by Commissions but also by persons who were excellently acquainted with native affairs. He wished to make use of the present opportunity to thank the Minister for bringing forward the Bill, by which he was satisfying the demands of hon. members, and also when the Bill was being drafted, for his expressed readiness to consider the speaker’s views. The hon. member for East London had stated that if the Bill were adopted it would have the effect of driving away from some places persons who had dwelt there for many years. But those persons were occupying those places in strife with the existing law, and consequently the Bill would not have the effect of placing them in any worse position. The speaker was not in favour of making lawful what was at present unlawful The hon. member for Edenburg had made it appear as if the native reserves would become places of refuge for vagabonds. Apparently the hon. member did not understand the position. It was laid down in the Bill that if natives wanted to buy or hire ground, they could only do that in certain districts. The hon. member was opposed to a system of native reserves, and wanted to settle the matter by means of taxation. Once, however, they were agreed that natives should not live between the whites, it became necessary to point out places where they could go and live. He now wished to make a few remarks as to the Bill itself. It was provided in the Bill that the Governor General could allocate additional native areas on the recommendation of a Commission to be appointed. Assuming that the Commission reported that in a given Province sufficient land had been set aside for the natives, and that no further ground was required there, then it appeared to the speaker that the law would not apply to that Province so far as regarded natives who were occupying land in strife with the law. The Minister should pay attention to that point. A Commission would have to be appointed, but it was the Minister who should bear the responsibility of any proposals which were brought before Parliament. That responsibility should not be passed over to the Commission, seeing that that Commission was not answerable to Parliament. The Minister could appoint as many Commissions as he liked, but he must remain responsible for the proposals which were made, so that hon. members could, if they found it necessary, deal with him. Assuming that the Commission came forward with unacceptable proposals by, for example, suggesting the allocation of too much ground for natives, then the Minister might wish to absolve himself from responsibility by saying: a qualified Commission has made these recommendations, and if Parliament will not accept them, I cannot carry out the law. That could and must be guarded against, by making the Government accept the full responsibility. Clause 5 laid it down that with the consent of the Governor-General in Council a native could acquire ground within a non-native district. If, however, a white person wished to acquire land in a native district, other than a new one, he would have to obtain the consent of both Houses of Parliament. That was not an equality of treatment, and he thought it better that both whites and natives should in that particular be subject to the same provisions. Exceptions ought to be made as difficult as possible, exceptions, that is, to the central principle of the Bill. Subsection 2 of clause 5 was also insufficiently clear in its purpose. So far as concerned clause 8 he was strongly opposed to its provisions. It was laid down there that in the case of a Kafir tribe dwelling on a piece of ground before the Bill became law, where it appeared that such ground was too small, the Governor-General would have the right to expropriate land and hand it over to the natives on certain terms of purchase. He took it that the object of the Bill was to make the non-native areas completely white, and the other districts black. But by means of that clause it was possible for the Government to enlarge a location in white territory, and in that way actually to perpetuate the existence of such a location. That was wrong. In the districts of Pretoria, Rustenburg, and Marico there were locations which were already too small. He had hoped they would say to those natives: The ground has become too small, and we shall put you in another place in a native district, and give you sufficient ground, in exchange for the ground which you now occupy. They should make the white areas completely white. If the clause remained unchanged in the Bill that would never be done. A proviso should be inserted in the clause referred to restricting its application to locations within native districts. It was further laid down in the Bill that the natives had to repay the money spent on purchasing land, together with interest at four per cent., but as the Government would itself have to pay four per cent., that interest was too small. Sub-section 2 of clause 15 provided that land bought by natives before the coming into force of the present Bill would remain in their possession, and that they would obtain transport of that ground until they exchanged it for land in a native district. That was all right. But it was quite another question when they came to hiring land. It was difficult to forbid leases which were already in existence, until such time as other land was placed at the disposal of such natives. But they should stop the granting of any further leases, nor should extensions of periods of hire be permitted. Under sub-section 2 the natives obtained the right to ask for a renewal of leases. For how long a period should such renewals be allowed? It should be provided that such renewals of a lease could not go on after the time when the Commission had given in its report. The Bill was a step in the right direction, it was urgently necessary, and it was one of the measures which one would rightly expect from a Union Government. But the Bill was only a step in the right direction, a step towards a solution of the great problem. After that they could go further. The native question was not a Gordian knot through which they could cut a way. It was necessary to go to work slowly if they were to obtain a proper relationship between whites and natives.

said he had listened with the greatest possible interest and attention to the speeches made by the hon. member for East London and the hon. member for Fordsburg in support of the amendment proposed by the former hon. member. While there was a great deal in the remarks of the hon. member for Fordsburg with which they agreed, his complaint was, as he (Mr. Creswell) understood it, that the Bill did not go far enough, and that it only touched on one rather inconsiderable region in which the two races were brought into contact, and he twitted the Minister of Native Affairs upon the great discrepancy between his views and the views of the Prime Minister upon the question of the importation of natives into this country—a little bit of inconsistency which it was, perhaps, a little dangerous for the hon. member to call attention to, because there was a wide discrepancy on those (the Opposition) benches.

We are not the Government.

No, but we understand by constitutional practice that you might be. Proceeding, he said that he could not say that the reasons advanced by either of the two hon. members were sufficient to justify the rejection of the second reading of this Bill. The Minister, in introducing the Bill, made certain remarks about the ideas of those who advocated segregation. He (Mr. Creswell) thought the party to which he had the honour to belong was the first party in this country which had the temerity to go away from the formula which was so dear to the other great parties, of one party advocating a firm and just native policy, in contradistinction to the other party advocating a just and firm native policy. Their party had always advocated the separation of the races. Broadly speaking, their grounds were that they believed that if they had an uncivilised and a civilised people living cheek by jowl, they would find that the same code of laws and institutions which civilised people required for their development and well-being were unsuited and unfitted for an uncivilised people, and if they adjusted their institutions and laws to suit the interests of an uncivilised people, it would be impossible for the civilised people to develop and expand in the country. (Hear, hear.)

What they had advocated, and did still advocate, was that the policy of this country, recognising that, should recognise also that, left to themselves, there would be a natural tendency for the separation of the two races. (Hear, hear.) And what they had continually in that House, and out of it, opposed, had been those institutions which the hon. member for Fordsburg had called attention to, which had sprung up, not in the interests of the native people, but in the interests of certain classes of white people, which would enable the natives to be used for the advantage of a certain class of white person, and forcing the natives out of their own native habits for the benefit of a comparatively small section of the white population. He need not remind the House how consistently they had advocated confining the difficulties to the natives within our own borders, by putting a stop to natives coming from outside. He need hardly remind the House of the shocking state of affairs regarding the natives disclosed in the statement made by the Minister yesterday. He believed, if they first of all confined the problem to the natives within their own borders, and set aside cant of all kinds, and recognised that all these recruiting laws and indenture laws were not really in the interests of the natives, but mainly in the interests of those who had secured the natural resources of this country, there would be less tendency to mix up the two races. He contended that if they recognised that many of these institutions which increased the point of contact were evil, that certain areas ought to be frankly administered in the interests of the natives, and other areas frankly administered in the interests of the whites, they would clear away many of the difficulties of their own creation, and see very much better in the future what the real difficulties of the problem were. This Bill, with all its defects, was a step in the right direction. (Hear, hear.) That being the case, were the defects of the Bill so great that it was necessary practically to oppose the passage of the Bill? That was what the amendment of the hon. member for East London amounted to. (Opposition dissent.) Hon. members surely must have very short memories, because it was only a few weeks ago that they heard the hon. member for Fort Beaufort criticising the Government severely upon the reference of another Bill to a Select Committee. The principle they held was that the Government should be a Responsible Government, and he would not support any proposal which was going to make a Select committee of Native Affairs take the piece of the Cabinet.

The Labour Party would vote for the second reading, reserving to itself the right to take full advantage of the opportunities it would have in committee of insisting on certain alterations being made in the Bill. ’they would not have any objection to referring the Bill to a Select Committee after its second reading, but their experience on Select Committees was not such as to encourage them to hope very much from that. The hon. member for Fordsburg had raised one very important point, who said that in the schedule a final arrangement was made of what territory should be a native territory. That, however, was not his (Mr. Creswell’s) view. He (Mr. Creswell) considered that the question of the gradual separation of the races would take many years to accomplish, and he could see no reason why because the Bill was passed there should never be any readjustment of these boundaries. (Hear, hear.) One of his objections to the Bill was that it was not desirable to aim at a chequer-board sort of separation. The object of the Commission in making recommendations for additional native areas should be to aggregate all the native areas in contiguity to one another, so that the natives might have their own institutions and develop along their own lines. They had this system at work in Basutoland and in the Territories. While the Europeans were undoubtedly the custodians of the natives, they had an onerous duty, and it was desirable to divest ourselves of that responsibility. It should be the aim of the country to give the natives their own parallel institutions. One amusing part of the discussion, proceeded Mr. Creswell, were the views which had been expressed as to the danger of allowing points of contact to increase, but people did not seem to think these points of contact very serious until they came to the ownership of land. He wished to know what was the precise reason for that curious exception in sub-section (2) of clause and which occurred continually throughout the Bill. Apparently a native might not hire or purchase land on any conditions or valuable consideration of any kind whatever other than his own labour or services, or the labour or services of any of his family. That was a delightful exception. If what the Minister had in view was to put a stop to natives squatting the Bill was not going to do that with that clause in it. If a man desired to have squatters on his land, could he not have as many as he liked under the Bill, for he thought the provision could be evaded. The amount of squatting which would be stopped under the Bill would be very small indeed, and in committee they would endeavour to have that clause altered.

The squatting which occurred throughout the Rustenburg district, and in many parts of the Transvaal, could be carried on under the Bill.

We have stopped that in the Cape Province.

That reminds me of the census figure, and the less the Cape say of the virtues of its Government the better it will be. (Hear, hear.) The effect of governing the Cape on Cape lines is that the number of European adult males in the Cape was a good deal fewer at the last census than it was at the previous one.

No.

Unfortunately it is true, but I don’t mention it with any feeling of satisfaction at all.

One would think you did.

When the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, speaks as if the Cape were a Paradise on earth, we like to show that even the Cape has its defects. Continuing, Mr. Creswell asked the Minister of Native Affairs to inform them on another very important point. The Minister had told them that in the Transvaal 200,000 natives were squatting on private lands illegally, and that if those lands were proclaimed non-native areas, there was no provision in the Bill which would permit the natives to remain until other lands could be found for them in other parts of the Union. That was rather a bureaucratic view to take. The presence of these natives was not the fault of the natives—(hear, hear)—and provision should be made in the Bill for such a contingency. Was the exaction of rent from these natives also illegal? (Hear, hear.) The Government having allowed landlords to exact rent from these natives, surely their position was legal enough for the Government to recognise its responsibility towards them. Proceeding, he said in chapter 4, clause 8 (3) there was a conflict with clause 10 forbidding the communal tenure of land. In that sub-section apparently they were going to make the natives jointly responsible for repayment of the expenditure caused by expropriating the land, and immediately after that they were forbidding the communal tenure of land. He thought that communal responsibility was another matter altogether, and there should be some further definition, and some attempt to reconcile those two provisions of the Act. Then again, in regard to clause 13 there was a proviso, the effect of which apparently was to allow the farmers to accumulate as many natives on their farms as they could, so long as they were not land-owning natives —that was so long as they were merely wage-earning natives. That was because it would interfere with the land-owning interests. Difficulties existed because of the interference of the natural flow of the people to the land In the industrial sphere and elsewhere it would have the same detrimental effect on large numbers of their white fellow-countrymen. They should remember that, after all, the future of the country did not depend upon the land owners. He wanted hon. members on the Government side of the House to look round and notice the position of thousands of the Dutch people who were going down, and the principal cause of that was the way the land was locked up. They were not going to protect the white races of this country, or to stop them going down by a Bill of that kind. They would have to take steps to enable the white people who were in this country, and the thousands who would come to the country, to apply their industries not only for the benefit of themselves, but for the benefit of the great natural resources of this country also. Many of their measures made it most difficult to live in this country, and they were defeating the ends the Minister had in view in one section of that Bill.

moved the adjournment of the debate.

The motion was agreed to and the date of resumption was put down for Monday next.

said he believed from the statements that had been made, that it was the intention, if it had not been already arranged, that the work connected with plant breeding and plant selection should be split up among agricultural colleges, and, from personal knowledge, he could say that the work had been transferred from Skinner’s Court to the valley above Pretoria, the site which was granted by the Pretoria Municipality for an agricultural college. He thought so far as the breeding of mealies was concerned it was successful. He heard it stated the other night—he believed Mr. Burtt Davy was now on holiday—that some time ago it was intended to distribute Mr. Davy’s work among the agricultural colleges. This was of the greatest possible importance to the country, it covered no ground which was proposed to be covered the other night by the botanical garden, but the next stage, that was to say, the development into practical value and practical use of anything that might be discovered that might be well worth cultivating in this country. It also covered the ground of plant breeding, fodder-plant breeding, in which he was interested himself. He had in his possession the catalogues of people who had dealt with this work for 40 or 50 years in France and England, and the results they had achieved were almost incredible, multiplying the production of the soil many times over. Also they learned that there was something to be stated with regard to the degeneration and regeneration of cereals. It was not possible for them—as everybody knew—to accept results obtained in other countries. The climate and the soil conditions were quite different here, and that which would succeed in Europe, America, or Australia (where the conditions were probably more alike to South African) would not necessarily succeed here until they first tried them. Unless they had got something to guide them in the country, something reliable in the way of experiments; unless they had something conducted under Government auspices to ensure a regular supply of means by which this could be done, and to ensure the personal supervision and report of men who were not directly interested—as tradesmen are—they would not get the best work or results. They had on the high veld this problem of how they were to get a mealie which could be sown sufficiently late to avoid the late frosts and ripen sufficiently early to avoid the early frosts. This was a very serious problem. It might mean thousands of tons of maize produced in the country. It was quite true that valuable work had been done by Mr. Burtt Davy, and also true that work had been done by the Potchefstroom College of Agriculture, the Experimental Farm. But they had produced not yet on a scale sufficient to allow them to give the seed to farmers, but on a scale which made it certain in his mind that they had got something, a mealie which would ripen sufficiently quickly to make a commercial proposition of it on the high veld, where the season was comparatively short. They had students who had been sent to the agricultural colleges, in the country, who had now advantages that their fathers never had, and he was absolutely convinced that they were going to do good work in the future, but now take the drawbacks in which the instructors worked. These men were appointed as instructors for agricultural work. The college staff was estimated to be sufficient for the number of students. These colleges were becoming more and more popular. There was a great demand for education, and he did not wonder at this, and besides these students were getting their education and their board cheaper than they could get it outside. If farmers would only understand, it was better to send their sons to these colleges, where they could get better education than ever their fathers got. They were voting now for an agricultural college on an estimate of students that were already there, while he believed that at the end of next year there would be a great advance in applications, and the only reason why they could not be received, was because they had no accommodation for a larger number of students. The time of these instructors or professors was fully taken up in their teaching duties, and how were they to do or to make these experiments in plant breeding or plant selection, which was so essential to the whole of the Union.

He did not claim for Pretoria that all the work should be done at the proposed National Agricultural College, for it was not possible to do all the work at one place, but he thought it was possible to concentrate in the main certain departments of work. The idea of scattering it all over the country, and giving it equally to half a dozen young professors, and asking them at the same time to instruct the youth of the country, would be a waste of time and money, and neglect of opportunities, and would do no good at all. Overconcentration was a bad thing, but an entire lack of it meant a lack of organisation, and a failure to get any result, and that was what he was afraid was going to follow the breaking up of the Department. As showing the value of cross-breeding, Sir Percy mentioned that a well known firm of British seed merchants was selling seed potatoes at £50per lb., and even then they would allow no more than 1 lb. to be sold to any purchaser. We could not get such results as that immediately, but we could go a long way towards it. What an important thing it would be if we could get only ten or twenty per cent. increase of our crops with no more cost to the farmer. The varying conditions required to be studied locally, and experiments should be made here, but that should only be done by the Government. The want of policy as to the conduct of the Department would, however, paralyse such investigation, and so, too, would the uncertainty of the officials knowing whether there would be sufficient money put on the Estimates from year to year for the carrying on of their experimental work. He, himself, had experiments going on with a dozen kinds of oats imported from other countries.

But work of that kind should be undertaken by the Government, and it was work that would repay the country 100 fold. For instance, the solution of the problem of the prevention of rust in wheat and oats would be worth hundreds of thousands of pounds to South Africa. Three years ago the Minister of Finance endeavoured to get one of the best men in the world for this work, but he was unsuccessful. However, he did not blame the Government for the failure to enlist the services of such men, because they were priceless. We could not expect to get the best men in the world. He believed we had very good men, but unfortunately we were not giving them the chance that we ought to give them, and we could give them. At the same time the money could be more judiciously expended and to better advantage than was now the case. He would like the farmers to realise the enormous field there was to be covered. As instancing the direction in which investigations could usefully he made, Sir Percy mentioned the buchu, native teas, and the Karoo bush, the latter being described as one of the most valuable plants in the whole world. (Hear, hear.) What was being done to show whether it could or could not be extended to other parts of South Africa, and whether we should be able to restore the veld to its old condition? The present experiments, he admitted, were being made with the best of intentions and skill, but he was convinced that there was a lack of system, and until we had the Department properly organised and carried out a policy extending over a period of years, and with a clear objective before us, we were not going to obtain the benefits that we ought to reap. (Cheers.)

said the hon. member evidently thought that the section in Pretoria was to be abolished, but there was no intention of giving up the department. All that had been done was that the work which had been carried on at Skinner’s Court had been transferred to Groenkloof. A certain amount of the work had been transferred to the colleges so as to teach the students. Researches in connection with a rust-free corn were being continued. It was extremely difficult to get good men, and a large salary had been offered to an expert in England, who, however, had refused. At the same time, the Government were doing their utmost to extend the work.

said he did not think there was sufficient differentiation between purely scientific and experimental work. Experiments should be carried out by a scientific type of person who was trained to observe. He could go on with experiments on a very small scale until eventually he found something that was worth a trial, and then when he had to produce, say, half a pint of seed, a trial could be undertaken by a qualified man at some experimental farm, and if satisfactory, further developments would follow. That was a policy which was being carried out in Canada. They would only require two or three scientific institutions which should be of a post-graduate type. It was not necessary to have a lot of them scattered over the country. They would have to be presided over by scientific men who were close observers, and they could only get a limited number of men who were of that stamp. He hoped the hon. Minister would go into the matter with the head of his Department, who himself was a scientific man, as well as a close observer and a good organiser. In his opinion they ought to have a Scientific Department associated ultimately with what he hoped to have some day—a University, and graduated students who wanted to go in for scientific work would be able to carry on their post-graduate studies and become experts. The organisation at the present time was by no means perfect. It had grown up in a few years according to the necessities of the country at the moment, and it wanted re-organising and placing on a scientific basis. They must separate scientific from educational work. In his opinion, a scientific department would cost less money than they were spending at the present day, and would have a much better result.

pointed out that what the last speaker had referred to was being carried out at Elsenberg. He supported the remarks of the hon. member, and hoped that researches would be made.

said he was afraid that the hon. member did not realise that that good work could not be continued when the professor was called upon to attend to his students. He pointed out that one break was sufficient to destroy his experiment, and that it was impossible for the expert to do two things. The first call was for the instruction of the students. With regard to the remarks of the Prime Minister as to the work being transferred to Groenkloof, and that there was accommodation there for laboratory work, he thought there was no need for that. They had taken from Pretoria a most magnificent gift. They undertook many years ago to build an agricultural college there, The ground was there, but not the college. What were they doing? He knew the limitations of the soil. They did not get 50 yards round of equal soil unless they went to the river banks. What good would experiments be there. They were doomed to failure before they commenced. Surely when they were going to make comparisons they must have equal conditions!

Proceeding, he said he did not want to deliver a lecture on grasses and things of that sort, but he would say that in nine cases out of ten they could double the value of the land by putting down some pasture. There was no country in the world where the pasture was good where it was native pasture. It had all been laid down; it was artificial pasture. That had been done all over the world, and they would have to do it in South Africa. Initial experiments, however, should be done by the Government for the benefit of South Africa. Unless the work was concentrated and done according to an appropriate scale they would not get the slightest value for the money they spent.

said that he was sorry to see the amount spent in that way was decreasing instead of increasing. They appeared to be trying to do a great deal of that work in connection with the Agricultural Department.

said it was touching to see the faith of the hon. member for Yeoville in Government enterprise. He did not see the utter futility of expecting anything from a Government department. The hon. member for Pretoria, East, had said that he recognised the limitation of the soil, but before he recognised that limitation he should recognise the limitation of a Government department. He was surprised to hear hon. members urging fresh endeavours on the part of the Government on those lines. Do not let them increase the vote either for the purpose of starting grasses or other things. (Laughter.) The hon. member for Pretoria, East had done so much already, and let him show what he could do. (Laughter.)

said he was pleased at the interest shown in the agricultural vote. His reply to the question by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort was that Mr. McMillan had been appointed head of the agricultural school at Pretoria. The transfer of £700 for agricultural education was in respect of the new principal of the Potchefstroom agricultural farm. The main experiments of Groenkloof were in regard to the finding of a new grass which would remain green in winter, and the obtaining of a better species of mealie. For the purposes of that inquiry he was ready to supply all that was required.

impressed upon the Minister of Agriculture to go into the whole question during the recess, and to consolidate the departments instead of splitting them up. They were not getting the value in that country that they ought to get, and as a result agriculture in the country was suffering. To transfer an officer, as the Minister had said, without putting anybody else into his place, would curtail the work the department was doing.

said that here was a man getting £1,000 a year supervising a department, the total cost of which only came to £750 more. It was not a business-like proposition, and no business map outside a lunatic asylum would do such a thing. They did not pay a first-class mining engineer to do pick and shovel work underground.

said that, although the official referred to was placed under the agricultural vote, he had always been the general head of the department.

who asked the Minister to see that the Chief Botanist was in chief control over the other botanists.

said that Mr. Burtt Davy had always stood at the head of the botanical section both in Pretoria and in the colleges.

asked whether the recommendations contained in the report of the Agricultural Department had been carried out.

reiterated that the botanist had been transferred from Skinners Court to Groenkloof, and was continuing the same work there with the help of his assistant.

said that they were always hammering into the Government that they were spending too much money, but now the whole discussion was that they were not spending enough. What they wanted to know (he continued) was the cost of producing certain articles in certain districts. It always seemed to be a reflection on their department that they could not tell them what was the average yield of an acre of ground. It had a bearing on the Finance Minister’s Department, because next year they would have gentlemen telling them that they could not grow corn under £1 a bag. (Laughter.) It had also a lot to do with land settlement. He asked the Minister to tell his department that they must really take some steps to get that information.

said he would give his attention to the matter.

The sub-head was agreed to.

referring to the vote of £650 for the upkeep of a Colonial herbarium at Durban, stated that this grant was previously paid out of the Minister of the Interior’s vote. On the first year of the Union’s Estimates it was £250, and last year it was £300. Now it was put down at £650. He could not understand this increase, and moved that the vote be reduced by £350.

said he wanted to call the Minister’s attention to a very serious grievance: that was, the hardship that had been inflicted upon those who wished to import plants. A friend of his wanted to import 25 different varieties of roses, but he was told that no roses could be forwarded unless a form was filled up specifying the varieties required. When all these formalities were gone through, the firm that he had communicated with wrote to tell him that by the time the roses arrived in the country they would be too late for the season. He contended that firms of established reputation and standing should be allowed to send out unhampered what roses or plants they thought most suitable for the country. Another instance of hardship he would like to draw attention to was that of a friend of his who desired to send some plants to Rhodesia. As he did not want them to be fumigated by Government officials, he asked that they should be fumigated by a man of established reputation. This was not allowed, with the result that these valuable plants were destroyed. He wished the Minister would see that these absurd regulations were altered.

said it was impossible for the two professional assistants and the two lay assistants to examine all the plants which were imported. The lemon trees which were imported often suffered from red scale. The inquiry should be made as strict as possible.

said that he had received a letter from a friend of his asking him to see the Agricultural Department with regard to an order for roses from an English firm. He was told, on application to Pretoria, that he could not get them all from England, but he would be allowed to bring in two species, as these were not in the country. Now, it seemed to him that this was the height of folly. A man might bring in roses not grown in this country, because, presumably, they would not introduce disease, but he might not bring in roses that were grown in the country because they might produce disease.

wanted to know if something could not be done to enable an examination of plants coming to the country to be made in the country from which they were sent. Take the San Jose scale, for instance. Nobody knew much about that. Under existing circumstances plants were cut and sent here in a dormant condition, and any disease that might be upon them revived when they came to this country.

spoke, but was inaudible.

said he thought the hon. member for Border knew the law as well as he did himself. If the hon. member gave him the name of his friend, he would see what could be done. The hon. member knew that under the law a man could only import a certain number of plants. The work of inspection should be made more efficient. Instead of relaxing the regulations, they should make them stricter, and foster the growth of the trees themselves. The fact that they had to be so strict was due to them having been too lax in the past. It was possible to improve the quality of their plants and fruits.

said the Minister of Agriculture should know that he (Mr. Struben) was the last one to suggest that regulations should be relaxed. It was most ridiculous to accuse him of wanting to relax the regulations. (Laughter.)

replied that he would give the matter his serious consideration.

The amendment was withdrawn.

The head was agreed to.

On sub-head (h), Salaries, wages and allowances, £14,869,

asked for information regarding the item, “New tobacco station, Transvaal, £750.” Had a site been chosen?

wished to know in what part of the Free State the amount of £750 for an experimental station was to be used. He thought that, at any rate, the amount was too small.

asked whether the tobacco warehouse expert had been taken over by the Cooperative Society of Rustenburg?

requested details regarding the item “Cotton co-operative experiments, £300.”

replying to Mr. Orr, said the site had not yet been selected. Neither had the place in the Cape been selected, and the same applied to the Free State. The chief of the tobacco section was also a cotton expert. The right hon. gentleman was understood to say that experiments in cotton growing were carried on at Rustenburg and Tzaneen.

The sub-head was agreed to.

On sub-head (j), £4,348,

asked what were the particular duties of the fruit inspector.

asked a question regarding the removal of fruit in the Western Province. He said he had received complaints from fruit growers in his constituency that diseased apples had been permitted to be sent from the Western Province to East London. He would like to ask the Minister what were the regulations regarding the removal of diseased fruit within the Province.

said he would send the regulations to the hon. member for Border. Replying to Mr. Wyndham, the Minister said that the post referred to was in connection with the inspection of fruit provided for in the mail contract. Fruit was only sent away during one part of the year. The mealie inspectors would also inspect the fruit. When fruit was being exported, no mealies were being sent away.

asked that if the fruit inspector was stationed in Cape Town, what about the fruit shipped from the other parts of the Union? He would like to know if the officer was appointed yet.

replied that fruit only arrived at a certain time of the year, and provision would be made everywhere for inspection. The same would be done in regard to the inspection of mealies, and it was proposed to have the inspection of the two done in conjunction.

referred to the item, “Experimental stations— white and native labour, rations, purchase of equipment, and maintenance charges, Warmbaths and Ermelo experimental stations,” the total of which was £928. Those were very interesting items, he said, if they knew what they were about, but he would like to have some details about them. It was impossible for any member of the House to discover how many white men and how many natives were being paid out of that sum; if such a lot of matters were jumbled together there might be a lot of women and children amongst the labourers.

replied to Mr. Madeley that he did not know how much all these people received. The figures given were totals. The codlin moth was everywhere prevalent in the Eastern Province, and no infected apples could be sent there.

The sub-head was agreed to.

On sub-head K, Viticulture, £4,309,

asked a question regarding the amount £450, viticulturist-in-charge. He understood that that gentleman had been appointed chief viticulturist at the Eisenberg College, and his salary was put down there. He would like to know why both amounts were not included in one sum.

replied that the matter had not yet been concluded, and the applications were only now asked for.

The sub-head was agreed to.

raised the question of one chemical department, and asked if his hon. friend had made further investigations into that matter. He had told the House three years ago that it was his intention to form one chemical department. The hon. member referred to certain changes that had been made during the last two years, and said that the Government would not carry on the work properly if they were going to have two chemical departments under two Ministerial heads, for by degrees they were building up two departments. Surely if they were going to have good work done they should have the Agricultural Department under one head. He deprecated haphazard methods, and urged that there should be co-ordination. A large amount of money was being spent in that manner, and they were not getting the advantages out of it that they ought to get.

said he thought that chemical work was a great matter, and just because of that, the chemical work in connection with the soil should be kept apart from the other. He thought this would have good effects. The people who did the other work had quite enough to do, and, in the circumstances, he thought the agricultural chemical work should be kept apart, as otherwise it might be neglected. They must respect each other’s opinions.

said that investigations regarding soil would have been of enormous benefit to the people of this country if they had been carried out in a scientific manner, under one chief, who would co-ordinate those investigations. He wanted to place it on record that no progress was being made with regard to the analyses of soil, and the responsibility rested with his right hon. friend for the attitude he had adopted in the matter.

supported the hon. member who had just spoken. There should be an increase in the staff, if the work was to be properly done. The hon. member quoted from a report to show that there was more work which could be carried on by the staff, and that the number of samples which were analysed were reduced. The Government stood convicted of not having done its duty in that regard.

The sub-head was agreed to.

On sub-head N, Publications,

said the articles in the “Agricultural Journal” should be collected and published separately.

said it was their intention to do so, but it would be rather costly. They could not sell the work as the farmers could not always follow the articles. Dr. Theiler was publishing popular pamphlets, and that was a good thing. The speaker would see what he could do Agreed to.

dealt with the inspection of co-operative societies, and said he was convinced that the inspection by the land banks today was doing far more good than all that this department was doing. In the interests of the societies themselves, he would urge upon the Minister to do away with these things, and put the lot in the bank.

was understood to say that they had to have people to advise the public in regard to co-operation, and that they could not abolish the section. It had done very good work. The chief of the Department of Co-operation was an extremely able man. He thought it would be wrong to break down the co-operative societies, especially as excellent work was being done, and the people were learning to stand on their own legs. The Land Bank had to do difficult work; they had to see that they received good securities. The farmers had suffered heavy losses, and had paid them off, but required help still. The co-operative societies, in conjunction with the land bank were doing admirably.

said that he did not want to go against co-operation, but rather to support it. His right hon. friend was misinformed regarding what the Land Bank was doing. He was informed that the Land Bank had practically taken over the inspection from that branch, and, personally, he thought they were doing it far more effectively, and putting these societies on far better business lines.

stated that the inspection of the banks was a necessary arrangement for the Society’s instruction.

The sub-head was agreed to.

asked the Minister of Agriculture if he had given any attention to the idea for a compulsory Branding Act throughout the Union. If there was anything that would be of advantage to farmers in stopping the stealing of stock it would be a Branding Act throughout the Union.

said it was a pity the hon. the Leader of the Opposition had not helped him last year in the remarks he and the hon. member for Zoutpansberg had made on the subject. The speaker had then pleaded for making brands compulsory, as it was of great assistance in preventing the theft of cattle.

said that if the branding law of the Transvaal was applied to the whole of the Union, and if the suggestions of the hon. member were agreed to it would cost about £70,000 or £80,000. A large number of salaried people would have to be appointed, otherwise they would have to compel every farmer to brand his own cattle. The matter had received his consideration, but they should not hurry the question and should deal with it on a practical basis.

added that brands were excellent in districts with a large Kafir population. In such cases the Department should do the branding.

The sub-head was agreed to.

in reply to the member for Cape Town, Central, said that any municipality could participate in this grant if it conducted experiments in dry farming.

desired to know the reason why there was such a small return as £250 upon this dry land farming.

replied that the original intention had not been to make this a reproductive speculation, but as a result of the corn and grain grown it had become reproductive. It was an experimental station where excellent work was being done.

The sub-head was agreed to.

said the price of guano to the farmers had been reduced from £6 to £5 a ton, although it was worth £10 a ton. The output was between 5,000 and 6,000 tons per annum, so that the State was making a clean present to the users of guano—who were principally farmers—of something like £30,000 to £35,000 a year. The guano was a State asset, and, belonged to the whole of the taxpayers—(cheers)—and therefore it should be sold at its full market rate.

said he most heartily supported the hon. member. The reduction in the price of guano was made against the advice of the Superintendent of the Guano Islands, who described the step as a very unwise and unfortunate one. The estimated revenue was £40,525. Where did the Minister of Agriculture expect to get that?

From the guano.

But he will not be able to do it, as the output is not more than 6,500 tons a year. Continuing, Mr. Madeley said in order to supply sufficient guano in order to meet what the superintendent described as “the clamouring demands of a certain section of the farming community for a cheaper guano,” the reserves on the Island had had to be drawn upon. Those reserves would be exhausted within two years. He (Mr. Madeley) wished to draw the attention of hon. members who represented Northern constituencies to the fact that the great bulk of the guano was distributed among the agriculturists in the western and south-western districts of the Cape. The figures were: Western districts of the Cape, 6,652 tons; other districts of the Cape, 285 tons; Transvaal, 170¼ tons; Free State, 13¾ tons; Natal, 1½ tons, and Rhodesia, 2 tons. Was the small supply to the Northern farmers due to their failure to apply for it?

said the sales of guano produced £36,000, of penguin eggs £2,000, and of sealskins £2,250. With regard to the applications, 423 small farmers who had applied for small quantities had received all they had asked for, namely from one to ten bags, but the applicants who had asked for larger quantities had not received the full amount they had asked for. Two years ago the price of guano had been reduced. The Commission which had been appointed, had recommended that the price be fixed at £5 per ton. After all, this was not a Government undertaking, and he thought it might be best to hand the whole matter over to the co-operative societies, or adopt some similar scheme. The Government might as well proclaim all stable manure as State property.

said that every agriculturist throughout the country had the right to buy it, they should not confine the produce to members of any co-operative society. It was State property, and it was not fair to the taxpayers in this country that their property should be sold at half price. He remembered the Commission that had been referred to, but the reduction that was made was made in the face of the gentleman in charge of that department. In the report he stated that he considered while the Government might have been actuated by the best intentions, the step which they took was a very unwise one, as would be proved before very long. As a matter of fact, proceeded Mr. Jagger, that was proved last year. Those in the Northern Provinces, who were as interested as they were, should know what was being done.

said that the fact was that the Government under Union were making a present of something like £30,000 a year to the farmers in the Cape of Good Hope, but it should be put up so that they could get something like the market price from the farmers all over the Union. To his mind, such an arrangement as they had at present should not be allowed to continue one day longer.

in reply to the hon. members for Cape Town, Central, and Pietermaritzburg, North, said they must realise that when they spoke of £10 as the market value that was not the market price in South Africa. (Mr. JAGGER: “Yes, it is.”) That price for use in South Africa, he maintained, was altogether over estimated. The basis they had gone on in the Cape Province and the Union was not a dole, because the Government collected the guano and sold it at something over cost price. There was a profit even on the £5, although it was not a big one, so that the administrative expenses were more than covered by the price charged. If the hon. member meant when he referred to “disastrous consequences” that the demand was too great, he was perfectly right. In 1912 they had had a particularly small crop, but this year the collection had been normal, and the crop was a good one. As a matter of fact, the demand had gone up steadily from 5,000 tons, four years ago, to 7,000 tons last year. Under Union he had very little doubt that the demand would grow apace, and at the beginning of the year there was a demand for over 10,000 tons. The price of £5 per ton was not limited to the Western Province of the South-west, and if the people of the Transvaal or the interior wanted it they could get it at £5 a ton too. An important question had arisen as to the distribution of the guano, and it was a very difficult one. It had been realised last year that the reserve was sold out, and a Commission had been appointed to allocate the guano, as the Minister of Agriculture had just told them. The system was a fair one, and as far as he could see, had given satisfaction.

said that the statement of the Minister was most extraordinary. What the obvious thing to do, when they had a shortage of supply, was to put it up for tender, or sell to the highest bidders in the open market. Instead of putting the price up when they had a shortage, it had been reduced, and no business could possibly pay on such lines.

said that the statement just made by the hon. member was even more extraordinary still. It was their duty to supply that guano at the cheapest rate they could to the whole of the farmers of the country, so that the small farmer was equally treated with the big one. If it was put up for public tender the rich man could buy up the lot. The price charged, however (£5) was not sufficient.

said that the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, knew nothing about the subject of guano, and was always opposed to the interests of the farmers. There was no very great advantage for the farmer to get the guano at this price. If the hon. member for Cape Town first saw to it that his harbours paid he would have more right to speak about guano. (Hear, hear.)

The sub-head was agreed to.

said he would like a little information from the Minister as to what was his policy with regard to these field cornets. Was it his intention to introduce legislation to coordinate the system in the Union. He would like to know also what was the relationship between the field cornet and the sheep department, as he understood now it was very difficult to keep pace with the needs of the country, the duties of the field cornets were now principally in connection with sheep. (Laughter.) He thought that this amount of £24,755 ought to be added to the sheep and scab inspectors amount. He wanted to draw the attention of the Minister to a political meeting held at Wakkerstroom in January last, when a friend of his who was a field cornet, and had gone to Potchefstroom on duty, made a most excellent speech, that he read in the papers with great interest. He really wanted, however, to point out to the Minister that proceedings of this nature must be stopped. They should not allow those officials to take part in political meetings. We could not go on in this way. The gentleman he referred to had no right to take part in any political meeting.

, said he endorsed the remarks of the last speaker. He (Mr. Rockey) intended to bring this matter up every year so long as he was in Parliament, until this iniquitious business was stopped altogether. The Transvaal Landowners’ Association while paying a tribute to the good work done in the matter of sheep inspection, maintained that the Veterinary Department should be solely responsible for the administration of the Scab Act, and that the inspectors should have no personal interest whatever in the districts in which they were employed.

said he could not take any objections to the remarks of the hon. member for Turffontein. He regretted that these field cornets should take part in politics, but sometimes they were driven into it, and people often poked their noses where they should not do so. It was not only field cornets who did that, but also other people. At any rate he was doing his utmost to alter this, and thought the position was getting much better. He took exception to the remarks of the hon. member for Langlaagte, and said he knew personally that the field cornets were good and honest men. Were all the people appointed on the mines persons who had no interests in the mines? As regarded the position of field cornets in connection with scab he was going to bring about a change. As soon as the three years of their appointment in the Transvaal was up, he would make changes, one of which would be that they would no longer be scab inspectors.

said he did not consider the explanation satisfactory. His hon. friend had said he would use his influence to keep them out of the political arena. Could not he issue instructions that field cornets should not take part in political work? In the Cape they were not allowed to do so.

They are.

maintained that they were not, and said that if the Prime Minister would issue the instructions that field cornets in the Transvaal or in any other Province must not take part in political affairs on pain of losing their billets there would be no further trouble. They had the same trouble two years ago, and it was quite time that they had something more definite than using influence in the matter.

pointed out that the field-cornets of the Transvaal were under the law not whole time officers. They were on the same footing as district surgeons; that was where the difficulty came in. But as soon as their three years were up he would make a change.

said that the field cornets in the Cape Province were mostly honorary officers and not on the same scale as in the Transvaal. In the first session of the Union Parliament that matter of field cornets had come up, and the Prime Minister had promised that he would send a circular requiring them not to take part in political propaganda work. After Parliament had risen these officers had again been appointed, and he wanted to know whether the Prime Minister would again appoint them. He thought that instructions should be issued by the Prime Minister that these officers should not take part in political propaganda work.

said he hoped the Prime Minister would go no further than he had done. It seemed to him that the hon. members for Turffontein and Langlaagte were only here to persecute these people. District surgeons could preside over political meetings of Unionists, and nothing was said about it, but because these field cornets were Boers they now had to listen to these attacks. He held that had it not been for the good work of the field cornets they would never have got as far as they had done in regard to cattle diseases. These people hardly ever went to political meetings now, because they objected to having their names continually dragged up in this manner. They were worth much more than £20 per month.

said that what they objected to was that these field-cornets should use their positions for political purposes. They did not object to Mr. De la Rey Swartz taking part in politics, but they must remember that this gentleman sent out notices, signed by himself as field-cornet. In the case at Wakkerstroom, the gentleman went down as an inspector of sheep, and took a prominent part at a political meeting. If they wanted to give expression to their political opinions, they should do so quite apart from their official duty.

said that, in listening to the discussion, he had come to the conclusion that the Government had two distinct policies with regard to the expression of their political opinions by their employees. A good many servants of the Government were going round the country and taking advantage of their position to preach the particular views held by the Government. But when it came to another section of the Government employees—the large body of railway servants—wishing to exercise their political liberties, notice was immediately issued stating that they must not sign a requisition, attend a public political meeting, or take part in politics in any shape or form. Here we had a glaring instance of the, Government being actuated in its policy by what was going to suit their own party, and to serve their own ends, so as to keep in office a little longer. He was surprised at the hon. member for Turffontein saying that there was no objection to field-cornets taking part in politics, seeing that the Opposition, as a body, objected to similar privileges being accorded to railway men. (Hear, hear.)

The sub-head was agreed to.

pointed out that the grain inspection system in Cape Town was a very extravagant one. When it was started, the work was satisfactorily done by a local broker; but subsequently two officials were kept in Cape Town, and they had not sufficient work to do. A thoroughly reliable man could be obtained to do the work at much less cost. Referring to the amount, £520, Chief Inspector of Grain, he would like to know what that official did. Last year South Africa exported mealies, and then they had to import mealies, much to the laughter of all parts of the outside world. He would have thought that an inspector of grain, who had charge of mealies would have had information to supply to merchants and dealers as to the amount of mealies that would be produced in the course of the year. Here was a man being paid £500 a year, and they allowed mealies to be exported, and afterwards they had to import mealies. He believed in one case the same grain was reimported. He would like to lodge his protest.

said while there was no doubt a good deal in the complaint made by the hon. member regarding the re-importing of mealies, he would point out that they had an official in London who acted as Trade Commissioner, and they should blame him and not the inspector here, who could not know anything of the state of the market in England.

said the hon. Ministers would not be laughing if they put an increased tax on land. That would stop them.

said the hon. member for Cape Town, Central (Mr. Jagger) was always very critical where it concerned the interior parts of the country. The hon. member wished to abolish co-operation, grading, and practically everything connected with the interior parts of the country. The exporting of mealies to England had shown excellent results, and traders had told him that they would sooner buy the mealies of this country than that of any other. If the mealies were graded and bore the Government stamp it always had good effects. The object of having the mealies graded was to improve the qualities. When these inspectors had no work in connection with mealie grading there was always plenty of other work for them, such as the inspecting of fruit, etc.

said that he was not against the grading itself, but against having the most expensive system. He was not against the interior, and the grader would have done much better if he had shown that there was to be a shortage of mealies in South Africa.

You could not foresee the drought.

said that surely they knew what the production would be. The farmer knew just as well as the speculator what the production would be, and regulated the amount accordingly.

The sub-head was agreed to.

Vote No. 7 was agreed to.

Progress was reported and leave obtained to sit again on Monday.