from Agnes C. Cook, Edith Miller and Emmie Sparks, president, secretary and treasurer, respectively of the Women’s Citizen Club, Cape Town, praying for legislation whereby women, on attaining the prescribed qualifications, may be admitted to practise any branch of the legal profession.

from G. J. Cooke and 57 other inhabitants of Roodepoort, praying for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Veto, whereby men and women may decide by ballot on the continuance, reduction or issue of liquor licences, or for other relief.

Return showing number of farms owned and total number of morgen owned within the Union by members of Transvaal Land Owners (Association; return showing amount of land purchased under Loan Vote “E,” Act 24 of 1912, by the Government, for land settlement and irrigation purposes, and indicating cost of each purchase, and price paid per morgen.

asked for leave to withdraw the following notice of motion standing in his name for to-day: That the Government be requested to consider the advisability of (1) preparing during the ensuing recess a Bill for establishing, as far as possible, uniform franchise qualifications throughout the Union without, however, in any way curtailing the rights of coloured persons in the Province of the Cape of Good Hope, secured to them under the provisions of the South Africa Act and (2) submitting such draft legislation to this House at an early date during next session of Parliament.

Leave was granted accordingly.

asked the Minister of Mines what steps, if any, have been taken to recover the amount of £231 12s. 5d. due by three companies to the Miners’ Phthisis Compensation Fund mentioned in paragraph 12 of the first report of the Miners’ Phthisis Board, and whether these companies have now paid the amounts claimed by the Board?

replied: Pending the decision of the High Court in an action set down for hearing on the 24th inst. as to whether the three mines in question are legally included in the list of mines published under section 2 of the Act, no steps have been taken by the Board to recover the amounts due from the companies to the Miners’ Phthisis Compensation Fund. It is understood that in the event of the Court’s decision being in favour of the inclusion of the mines interest will be paid on the amounts outstanding.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the Administrator of the Transvaal had the use, at public expense, of a private railway coach for a visit to Warmbaths during Easter, 1913; (2) if so, what were the dates and times of arrival and departure, and what was the total cost in salaries, food, and haulage in connection with the use of the coach on the occasion in question from Pretoria and back; and (3) whether it is a fact that the sole purpose of the journey was for the gentleman in question to visit his farm near Warmbaths?

replied: (1) and (2) The journey of the hon. the Administrator of the Transvaal to Warmbaths on the 20th March was not made at public expense. (3) The reason for the journey was not disclosed to the Administration.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) What are the names of the mines in respect of which a portion of the contribution to the Miners’ Phthisis Compensation Fund had to be met from the Government contribution in the period ended the 1st February, 1913, under sections 5 (2) and 7 (2) of Act No. 19 of 1912; and (2) what was the amount in each case drawn from the Government contribution to make up the full amount of the levy?

replied: The names of the mines in respect of which the Board’s levies have exceeded the quarterly profit and the amounts drawn from the Government Contribution Account are as under: Benoni Consolidated, amount paid out of Government Contribution Account, £493 9s. 2d.: Jubilee G.M. Co.. £130 6s. 11d.; Jupiter G.M. Co., £2,516 1s. 10d.; Lancaster West G.M. Co., £1,468 18s. 6d.: Midas Deep, £13 17s. 2d.; New Rietfontein Estates, £1,410 17s. 9d.; Princess Estates, £1,369 2s. 3d.: Simmer Deen, £788 18s. 7d.; Salisbury G.M. Co., £169 8s. 11d.; Simmer and Jack East. £2,189 14s. 8d.; Vogelstruis Estates, £692 17s. 10d.: York G.M. Co.. £56 11s. 10d.; Sub-Nigel, £446 5s. 3d.: Ariston Mines, £55 8s 8d.; New West Bonanza, £99 16s. 4d.: Warren Hill Syndicate. £135 15s. 4d.: New Heidelberg Roodepoort, £27 14s. 4d.; total. £12.065 5s. 4d.

for Mr. M. Alexander (Cape Town, Castle), asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether it is a fact that under the new railway regulations guards who contributed to the Cane Pension Fund, and were members of the Cape fixed establishment, are granted an increase of pay nominally, but that owing to the new system of calculating time (i.e., overtime and booking through time) and expenses, they are really losers to the extent of about £20 per annum in some cases; and (2) whether the Government is prepared to take into consideration the advisability of protecting such persons, so that their position under the new regulations may not be worse than their position under the old regulations?

replied: (1) Under the regulations in force up to the 31st December last, the maximum rate of pay for guards in the Cape Province was 8s. 9d. per diem, but the Staff Regulations, operating from the 1st January, 1913, provide for a maximum rate of 11s. per diem. The Administration has no knowledge of any case, still unadjusted, where the introduction of the new regulations has resulted in loss of earning power to the staff. (2) Instructions have already been given that if any member of the staff who was in the service on the 31st December, 1912, earns less under the new regulations than he would have earned for the same time worked under the old conditions, such adjustment must at once be made in his scale of pay as will safeguard his interests, and if any specific case where this has not been done is brought to my notice, the matter will be investigated, and such adjustment made as may be necessary.

for Mr. M. Alexander (Cape Town, Castle) asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether it is a fact that the curfew bell regulations are applied (a) in Calvinia, Hankey, Jeffreys Bay, and Aberdeen to Cape coloured people, and (b) in Calvinia to the minor children of exempted natives, and, if so (2) whether the Government is prepared to make representations to exempt Cape coloured people and the minor children of exempted natives from the operation of the said regulations?

replied: (1) (a) In Calvinia the curfew regulations have in the past been applied to Cape coloured persons. In Aberdeen they have not been so applied. There are no curfew regulations in operation at Hankey or Jeffreys Bay. (b) Minor children of exempted natives residing within the Calvinia municipal area have not been subjected to the provision of the curfew regulations. (2) Representations have been made to the Cape Provincial Administration with a view to excluding Cape coloured persons in Calvinia from the operation of the curfew regulations.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the application of Mrs. Meyer before the Townships Board for permission to lay out a township for natives which will adjoin Wattles railway station, and in close proximity to Elsburg and many European residences on the farm Klippoortje; and, if so (2) whether he will seriously take into consideration the great annoyance such a township will cause to the residents in the above-mentioned localities before allowing it to be laid out?

said an application had been submitted to him in terms of Act 33, 1907 (Transvaal), and in accordance with the law. It has been referred to the Townships Board for consideration and recommendation. I understand the Board was not in a position to submit its recommendation, and that several petitions had been received from Europeans living in the vicinity, who objected to the establishment of a township. When the recommendations of the Board are to hand the objections raised against the establishment of a township would be taken into consideration.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether patents still require registration in each of the four Provinces; and, if so (2) whether he will, at an early date, introduce a Patents Law applicable to the whole Union?

replied: (1) Yes. (2) It is my intention to introduce a Consolidating Patents Law for the Union next session of Parliament.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether, when Government business requires the services of a solicitor in the locality concerned, it is the practice of the departments involved including the Railway Administration to employ any particular firm or firms of solicitors, and, if so, which firms are employed and what are the reasons for employing them, or whether it is the custom to allow all firms to participate in such Government business; (2) what is the total sum accruing to solicitors in acting for the Government including Railway Administration since Union under itemized (a) fees paid by Government and (b) costs recovered from opponents, and which firm or firms received the same, and what are the sums so paid respectively; and (3) whether he will consider the advisability of instituting a “solicitors’ brunch” in connection with his department, or alternatively, distributing Government legal business as far as possible among all firms of solicitors in the towns or localities concerned?

replied: I must ask the hon. member to allow this question to stand over, as some time is required to get the necessary figures.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether, with a view to finally determining whether John Heynes should be detained or not at Robben Island as a leper, he will instruct Dr. Bayon to make an early examination of the patient, if possible in the presence of some other independent medical practitioner, and report the result to this House?

replied: As I have already stated in reply to a former question during this session on the same subject, this patient was examined in January last by the Leprosy Commission, and he was declared by them to be, as he had been found before to be, actively infected with leprosy. Dr. Bayon’s work lies in research, but an offer on his part to examine a sample of Heynes’ blood was refused by the latter. There is no element of doubt about this case. He is one of a family of four lepers who are segregated on Robben Island. The finding of the Leprosy Commission, which consists of six gentlemen of high standing in the medical profession is, in my opinion, conclusive.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) When Mr. Secundus de Villiers received his appointment in the public service; and (2) whether-the regulations of the service were rigidly observed before appointing him, and, if not, in what respect were they departed from?

for the Minister of the Interior, replied: (1) Mr. Secundus de Villiers received his present appointment as Clerk to the Magistrate of Ermelo on the 20th November, 1912, on the recommendation of the Public Service Commission. He had previously been in the Public Service of the South African Republic Government, and at the outbreak of the war held the appointment of Chief of the Civil Division of the Attorney-General’s Office. (2) I presume the Public Service Commission observed the regulations of the Service in recommending the appointment.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether he is aware that a railway employee at Salt River has to lose half a day if he only requires one hour or less absence on urgent private affairs, and, whether, if these facts are correct, he will give consideration to this unnecessary hardship?

replied: In one shop only at Salt River Works was this the practice, but cause for complaint has now been removed.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that children and young people under age are allowed to be present when cases of immoral conduct are being heard in Superior Courts; (2) whether he is not convinced that this does not tend to improve their morals; and (3) whether he is prepared to make provision for the hearing of such cases in private, so that children, young people under age and even grown-ups may be denied admission to such trials?

replied: (1) I am not aware of the facts stated. (2) I am satisfied so far as juveniles are concerned. (3) So far as juveniles are concerned I find that the Supreme Court, in the honourable member’s Province at all events, does exclude them. So far as adults are concerned, I am doubtful whether the power to exclude exists. The matter will receive consideration in connection with the framing of the Union Criminal Procedure Code, but the principle that judicial proceedings shall be open and public is properly regarded as of vital importance and a very strict definition of proceedings of an immoral nature will have to be made so as to obviate the possibility of the principle of the open Court being unduly encroached upon.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether the cleaners employed at the General Post Office, Cape Town, are placed on the fixed staff, and, if not, why not; (2) what is the status of cleaners in the service; (3) what is the minimum and what the maximum rate of pay for cleaners; (4) what leave are cleaners entitled to; (5) how many cleaners are employed in the General Post Office refreshment rooms; (6) whether, in case of illness, cleaners are only allowed sick pay for sixteen days; (7) whether certain cleaners are made to perform temporary hall porter’s duty but are debarred from filling the post when a vacancy occurs on the hall porter’s staff; (8) whether cleaners work on Good Friday and Christmas Day; and (9) whether the Government is prepared to take into consideration the grievances of the cleaners, and to meet them by finding a remedy?

replied: (1) Those cleaners in receipt of not less than 5s. per diem and who are under the age of 40 on first appointment, contribute to the Union General Division Pension Fund, and their employment is permanent; (2) Cleaners are officers of the public service included in the General Division; (3) 4s. and 6s. 9d. per diem respectively; (4) 30 days per annum sick or vacation leave after the completion of two years’ service; (5) one for one whole day and one for half a day. A portion of the wages of these men is paid by the refreshment branch; (6) pay up to 30 days is allowed in cases of absence through illness provided no other leave has been taken in the year; (7) It has happened occasionally that a cleaner has been employed temporarily as a hall porter for a short period. All hall porters’ position in the General Post Office, with one exception, are such as should be held by Europeans; (8) the cleaners work for about two hours on Good Friday and Christmas Day, and receive a day’s pay for each day; (9) no representations have been made by the cleaning staff as to their suffering any grievances. I may add that the men receive uniform clothing and boots and are granted free medical attendance and medicines.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) At what railway stations is provision made at the present time for the sale of intoxicating liquor; and (2) at what railway stations was such provision formerly made, but which is no longer made, and what is the reason for the abolition of such provision?

replied: (1) Intoxicating liquors are sold at the following railway stations: Cape Town (Colonial liquors only), Worcester, Kimberley, Rosmead, Alicedale, Uitenhage, Burghersdorp, Queen’s Town, East London (Colonial liquors only), Bethlehem, Pretoria, Germiston, Johannesburg, Randfontein, Potchefstroom, Heidelberg. Volksrust, Witbank, Belfast, Kaapmuiden, Nylstroom, Pietersburg, South Coast Junction, Maritzburg, Ladysmith, Newcastle, Dalton, Kelso, Tongaat, Gingindhlovu, Somkele, Wellington, De Aar, Warrenton, Cookhouse, Port Elizabeth (Colonial liquors only), Stormberg, Sterkstroom, Blaney, Bloemfontein, Kroonstad. Vereeniging, Jeppe, Fordsburg. Krugersdorp. Bloemhof. Standerton, Benoni, Middelburg, Waterval Boven. Warmbaths, Potgietersrust, Durban. Inchanga, Estcourt, Glencoe, Blood River. Amanzimtoti, Port Shepstone, Stanger, and Empangeni. (2) Since August, 1903, the undermentioned refreshment rooms have been closed, in the majority of cases consequent upon the introduction of dining-cars on main-line trains, and in others on account of its being considered no longer necessary to supply refreshments there, due partly to the altered train service now in operation: Touws River, Grootfontein, Beaufort West. Orange River, Norval’s Pont, Cradock, Toise River, Van Reenen, Matjesfontein, Fraserburg-road, Biesjespoort, Naauwpoort, Vryburg, Molteno, Charlestown, and Vryheid.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether passed candidates of the Intermediate Examination, entering the public service, should not receive some consideration, by being appointed with a salary of, say, £130 per annum, for the same reason as graduates are appointed as second-class clerical assistants, with salaries of £180 per annum?

replied: The Public Service Act has not been in force for a sufficiently long time to enable me to express any definite opinion on the subject, and sub-section (1) of section 6 of the Act is, however, sufficiently elastic to enable the Commission to make a recommendation in any case where the merits of a candidate justifies special treatment.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What is the position of railway employees who joined the Cape Pension Fund under Act No. 42 of 1885, and who have been placed on pension through abolition of office with less than ten years addition to their service for pension purposes; and (2) whether, in view of the fact that the ten years addition has been made in several recent cases, the Government will make a similar addition in the case of those who have not already received it; and, if so, when?

replied: (1) Ten years is the maximum addition of years for pension purposes applicable, under section 26 of Cape Act 42 of 1885, to Cape contributors of 20 years’ service and upwards, who were fixed before 1895, and who are retired through abolition of office: but there is no obligation to add the maximum number of years in every case. The Act provides that such allowance may be granted, as on a full consideration of the circumstances may seem to the Governor to be a reasonable and just compensation for loss of office, so that each case is considered on its merits. (2) The addition of years actually granted in each case, although below the maximum, represented what was considered to be reasonable and just compensation for abolition of office, and I am not prepared to reopen the cases of officers or employees, to whom the terms of section 26 of the 1885 Act were applicable, and who were retired without the maximum of ten years being added to their pensionable service.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether his attention has been d’-awn to the fact that large numbers of sheep in Bechuanaland inoculated with blue-tongue vaccine have succumbed to blue-tongue, and whether he will cause investigations to be made with a view to determine whether the mortality is due to any defect in the serum supplied by the Government?

replied: No information has reached me here of the deaths of sheep inoculated with blue-tongue vaccine in Bechuanaland, but I will at once inquire into the matter.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that considerable numbers of officers in the Post Office who have been transferred in recent months from the Cape Province to the Transvaal find, themselves debarred by reason of the fact that they have not yet been six months in the Transvaal, from being included in the new register of Parliamentary voters, despite the fact that they were qualified to be registered in the Cape Province; and, if so, whether he will take steps by means of a short Act this session to remove the disability under which so many labour by reason of the registration laws in the various Provinces requiring a certain period of residence therein as one of the qualifications to be Parliamentary voters?

replied: I have been informed that there are a few such officers who find themselves debarred by reason of the fact that they have not yet been six months in the Transvaal from being included in the new register of Parliamentary voters. I think it would be inexpedient to legislate for this particular case.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether the names of renters of Post Office boxes have ceased to be published in the “Post Office Guide”; (2) whether instructions have been issued to postmasters not to disclose the names of renters without the permission of such renters; and, if so, (3) what is the reason for such secrecy?

replied: (1) The names of renters of Post Office boxes have never been published in the Union “Post Office Guide.” Prior to Union this information was published in the Transvaal “ Guide ” only. There are about 25,000 renters of private boxes throughout the Union, and it is not practicable to follow the Transvaal practice for the Union. (2) Yes. (3) Many renters strongly object to the information being made public, and the Department is bound to respect their wishes.

asked the Minister of Public Works whether any provision has been made in the plans and specifications of the proposed residence for His Excellency the Governor-General at Rondebosch for the use of stone or granite, and, if so, what provision?

replied: Government intends calling for competitive designs for the new residence for His Excellency the Governor-General at Rondebosch, and the material to be used will depend on the proposals of the successful competitor and the extent to which these can be given effect to for the money provided.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) What are the prospects for further promotion of senior subordinate officers in the Prisons Department after attaining chief warders’ rank; (2) can such senior subordinate officers attain the position of officers appointed to the charge of reformatories and industrial schools; and (3) will gratuities be granted to men who do not desire to continue under the regrading scheme on account of losing future pensionable rights attainable under the old system?

replied: I must ask the hon. member to allow this question, of which notice was given yesterday, to stand over to allow of communication with Pretoria.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the statement that Messrs. Barnato Bros, have announced in London that the Union Government have no intention of imposing a tax on diamonds; (2) whether he has authorised such announcement; and if not, what action he proposes to take to prevent future misuse of the name of the Government in share market dealings; and (3) whether the Government will in future await reports on local investigations of specific questions in regard to this matter before giving information to interested financial corporations, or others?

replied: I have no knowledge of the newspaper statement referred to by the hon. member. Any such statement is quite without authority.

had asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether it is a fact that Sheep Inspector Berry, of the Barkly West district, was suspended on the 22nd of February; (2) whether Inspector Berry was promised a magisterial inquiry into the charge against him; (3) whether such inquiry has been held, and what was the result; and (4) if such inquiry has not yet been held, what is the cause of delay?

replied: (1) Sheep Inspector Berry, Barkly West, was suspended on the 22nd February, 1913. (2) Yes. (3) The inquiry has not yet been held. (4) Senior Inspector De Wet, who laid the charges of insubordination and neglect of duties against Berry, is not yet in a position to produce the necessary evidence, owing to press of duties, due to the simultaneous dipping of sheep now in operation. The inquiry will be held as soon as possible, probably early next month, upon the completion of the simultaneous dipping of sheep.

moved that it be an instruction to the Select Committee on Native Affairs to bring up before the 1st May its report on the contract between the Portuguese Government and the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association and all matters incidental thereto, referred to it by resolution of the House on the 19th March, 1913. He said that when he put this motion on the Table he was largely influenced by the Select Committee. It was not his desire to press for any particular date, but as the motion was set down he would formally move it, asking the Minister of Native Affairs when he intended to bring up his report. In conclusion, he said he would like some assurance that the report would soon be in the hands of members.

said that this was rather an unusual motion, especially coming from a member of the House who was not a member of the committee. He could not remember a case where a resolution of that kind had been moved after the appointment of the committee, though he knew that such a motion had been moved at the time of the appointment of a committee. Since the matter had been sent to the Select Committee, the committee had sat frequently, and had devoted its time exclusively to this matter, and a great deal of evidence had been led. They were expediting this business as much as possible. Only that morning he had asked a gentleman who sat near the mover, and who was a member of the committee, to save as much time as possible. He could not promise that the report would be brought up by the date stated, but he would do all he could to bring it up by that date, or even before. He was anxious that the matter should come before the House, because he thought further discussion would be in the public interest. In these circumstances he hoped the motion would not be pressed.

said that in view of what the Minister had said he would ask leave to withdraw the motion. He hoped that the Minister’s desire to have this matter fully discussed would be fruitful on this occasion. He would remind the Minister that last year the report of the Native Affairs Committee came too late for discussion.

The motion was withdrawn.

moved: That the petition from A. J. S. Young, late messenger of the Magistrate’s Court, Lions River, Natal, who was retired on pension in April, 1912, praying for consideration of his case and relief, presented to this House on the 19th June, 1912, be laid upon the Table, and, if agreed to, that it be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

The motion was agreed to.

moved: That the petition from D. Collenette, of Port Elizabeth, who was retired from the Harbour Works as a black smith in November, 1911, after thirty-eight years’ service, praying for an annuity, or for other relief, presented to this House on the 15th May, 1912, be laid upon the Table, and, if agreed to, that it be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

The motion was agreed to.

asked leave to move the following motion No. 12, as before No. 2: That the petition from H. J. Macdonald, of Kenhardt, who served in the Police Force from 1874 until 1900, when he was taken prisoner by the Republican Forces and subsequently tried for high treason and acquitted, praying the House to consider the circumstances of his case, and to grant him certain arrear salary and a pension, or other relief, presented to this House on the 26th April, 1912, be laid upon the Table, and, if agreed to, that it be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

Has the hon. member got the consent of all members who have motions before him? (Laughter.) All hon. members before him must give their consent.

I hope they will give their consent. (Laughter.)

said he was afraid he could not accept that.

asked leave to move the following before No. 2: That the petition from F. Barber and 268 others, workmen employed in the Pretoria Locomotive Workshops of the South African Railways, in opposition to the introduction of piecework in the Railway Workshops, Pretoria, and praying for the appointment of a Commission to investigate matters relating thereto, presented to this House on the 19th February, 1913, be referred to the Government for consideration.

Has the hon. member got the consent of hon. members who have motions before him.

I have got the consent of the hon. member for Weenen. The only other hon. member who has a motion is the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, who is not in his place. I don’t think he would object, because this is a purely formal matter.

Motion No. 2. (Laughter.)

That the attention of the Government be drawn to the alarming increase of leprosy amongst natives living on the slopes of the Drakensberg, Natal, and that it be requested to take immediate action to cope with this evil. The mover said that there was an alarming increase of leprosy among natives living on the slopes of the Drakensberg, and referred the House to magisterial reports for 1911, which was the latest available data he could get. He pointed out that the census figures in this regard were incorrect. According to the census there were only 146 lepers in the whole of the Province of Natal, whereas in the district of Bulwer, the Magistrate’s report showed that there were 89 acknowledged cases, while more than twice that number were known to the district surgeon. He pointed out that these natives did not abstain from going to work. They went to places where they were not known, and perhaps hired themselves out as nurse-girls or cooks, and it was horrible to think of such servants coming from infected kraals. He understood from scientists that people in the first stages were equally infectious as those in the latter stages, but no action could be taken by the Government in regard to them in Natal. He had no objection whatever to the arrangements made for lepers in Natal at present, but complained that they did not go nearly far enough, and they could not possibly check this horrible disease unless its victims were dealt with by a strict system of segregation.

Since he had put this motion on the paper, they had received the report of Dr. Rayon in which he quoted the findings of the second Leprosy Conference held in Belgium. The Conference found that leprosy was a disease contagious from person to person, and according to their finding England was just as liable to leprosy as South Africa, yet with England’s teeming population they had only one or two known cases. The report went on to say that it was desirable that every country should go in for a system of isolating lepers, and the healthy children of lepers should be taken from their parents and placed under observation. There was no provision made for the protection of the healthy children of lepers in Natal. Dr. Bayon also showed in his report how very easy it was for the disease to be communicated from one person to another. The Conference further stated that an examination should be made from time to time of those persons who lived with or came in contact with lepers. Goodness only knew, in this country, who had not lived with lepers around them. Everyone who had had a native servant had been in danger. He personally knew the case of a European telegraph boy who for years pursued his vocation in a Natal town, going from house to house. He was a horrible sight, and it was not until he was in the last stages that the doctors recognised his disease as leprosy. That showed how little was known of the disease by some doctors in this country. He did not say all doctors were ignorant of it, because, especially in the Western Province of the Cape, doctors had exceptional opportunities of studying the disease. Dr. Bayon also stated that leprosy was spread by direct or indirect contagion by people suffering from it. There was an authenticated instance of one leper having infected 28 healthy people. Another case of a French sailor who developed the disease after spending 20 hours in a leprous country.

There was no evidence that leprosy was hereditary, the occurrence of several cases in one family being due to contagion. The British Colonial delegates stated that “the preceding recommendations if carried out will provide the most efficient means of mitigating the sufferings of the leper and of assisting his recovery, and at the same time will produce a reduction and ultimate extinction of the disease.” On the question of segregation, Dr. Bayon wrote: “In consideration of the spread that leprosy has taken in South Africa, not only among the native and coloured population, but also among the other sections of the community, and of the universal opinion of those best able to decide on the subject, segregation and treatment in special settlements are fully justified.” Concluding, Mr. Meyler said he was not blaming the Government in any way for having carried on in the way they had, because the Natal Government had carried on in that way for many years, but this spread of the disease had taken place since Union, and he brought it to the notice of the Government, feeling quite sure that they would agree to the motion, and would do something in the matter. (Cheers.)

seconded the motion.

moved as an amendment: After “Natal” to insert, “and other contagious diseases amongst natives of the Northern Transvaal”; and at the end of the motion to omit “this evil,” and to substitute “these evils.” He said he moved as above to bring to the notice of the Minister of the Interior the condition of affairs existing in the Northern Transvaal. He might say at once that he moved that amendment, and put the case of those people, not as one of those who generally urged social and fraternal equality between black and white, but as one actuated solely by the feeling that they, as the governing race, should do everything in their power, not only to prevent the spread of evils amongst, the natives, but to supply the remedy where they could. They were naturally inclined to look at the native largely from the point of view of taxpayers, and further as the supplier, to a very large extent, of the unskilled labour of this country. But even if they looked at the matter from those points of view, he still submitted it was nothing but just and right on their part to return in some degree some portion of the money the natives had paid as taxes, and devote it to improving the health of the natives in this country— (cheers)—because, undoubtedly, the natives looked to the European to supply the medical wants, at least, to cope with the more serious diseases which they found spreading amongst them. They could not get away from this fact, that the mines, the industrial centres in this country to-day, were the largest contributors to the inception and spread of those diseases, and’ especially one of the worst diseases from which the native suffered.

He need only refer to the Native Affairs Report, which was laid on the Table a few days ago. On page 1, they found: “Consumption and pulmonary diseases are reported to be on the increase. One of the main causes is the infection spread by the native who has returned from the mines. Overcrowding, bad ventilation, and lack of sanitation are contributory causes.” The report continued: “There can, unfortunately, be little doubt that tubercular disease is spreading steadily. By some this is attributed to the insanitary conditions of kraal life, but this is negatived by the fact that kraal life at the present time is the same, or nearly so, as it has been, while the disease has been noticeably prevalent only within a comparatively short time. Recent medical reports and statistics tend to show that work in the mines is an ever-present factor in the production and spread of tuberculosis among natives, while the unnatural confinement in buildings erected for their occupation, often with more regard for economy of space than for health, the wearing of unfamiliar clothing acquired without thought of utility, but merely by way of compliance with civilised laws and customs, and the change from outdoor to indoor life, all contribute their quota to the increasing percentage of diseased lungs.” That being the case, he said that ordinary humanity must compel them to take whatever precautions they could to prevent the native from becoming diseased, and when, because of the industrial employment, they had found them, they were allowed to contract these diseases, then he said it was not fair and just on their part simply to turn those natives loose, and send them back to their kraals, regarding them henceforth as people from whom no taxes could be expected.

Another reason why they should all do their very best to alleviate the present state of affairs was because of the risk of infection, and they had the case supplied by the hon. member for Weenen (Mr. Meyler) of a European family that had been infected by a native servant. Proceeding, the hon. member pointed out that the death rate on the mines for 1911 from that disease was no less than 6,900, and to that at least another 10 per cent. should be added in regard to natives who left the mines, and died on their way home, or at their very doors, which would bring the total up to more than 7,500 per annum. It was not only their duty to examine the native when he came to the mines; but it was also the duty of the department to see that when these natives were released or discharged from the mines they were in a fit and proper condition to travel to their homes. If they were found suffering from that disease they should be sent to an institution in order that they could regain their health before being sent home. In the Transvaal a Commission had been appointed to go into that most important question, and he maintained that the least they could do was to maintain district hospitals in the large native areas, as they had in the case of the Northern Transvaal—hospitals started and conducted to some extent by the missionaries. It took some time before the native got confidence in the district doctor. Here in the Northern Transvaal they had institutions which showed that the natives had confidence in them, and the very life of the missionary was to supply the wants of the natives as much as he could in that direction. They had succeeded in the Transvaal in getting a fair amount of State aid in regard to these hospitals, but not sufficient to cope with the enormous demand made on them through the spread of the disease, and the unfortunate circumstances in which these natives lived when they returned to their homes again—so much so that the Missionary Societies had issued instructions to the missionaries on the spot to curtail their attentions to the natives as much as possible, because these societies had not sent their representatives out to that country only to attend to the medical wants of the natives. That was rather the duty of the governing class in that country. In the Zoutpansberg District they were contributing £200,000 or £300,000 per annum in direct taxation. A hospital, such as at Elim, doing such splendid work as it did, had to be satisfied with £800 per annum, which was not the salary of a second grade veterinary surgeon in that country—not that these people, or he, Mr. Mentz, were making any complaint—they were thankful for small mercies, but still he thought that that amount should be increased. He might be told by the Minister of the Interior that these hospitals came under the Provincial Council, but when he went to the Provincial Council they said that they did not get direct taxation from them, and so he must go to the Union Parliament; therefore he was compelled to come back to that House again, and place the case before the Minister of the Interior, to see what direct grant could be made to these hospitals, and in what way he could deal with the recommendations made in 1906. It was not much use to supply the native with medicine once or twice a month. These two hospitals were not sufficient for the Northern Transvaal, he maintained. It was a pity to see these poor sufferers, without proper house or food, wasting, or, he might almost use the word, rotting away, without succour. There should be more of these hospitals. The hon. member went on to refer to the salaries paid at the hospital he had referred to, and said that surely that showed that the £800 which was given to the hospital was not squandered. These unfortunate people were also overcrowded. Many natives would not go into the hospitals; for one thing the various tribes did not want to associate with one another. Splendid work was being done at the hospital he had referred to, and they could not get better treatment at any other hospital in the country. He was raising this matter entirely of his own accord, and he hoped his doing so would not jeopardise these peoples’ cause with the authorities. In conclusion, Mr. Mentz said that disease was being carried into the towns from remote parts. Had the time not arrived when native women who came into towns in search of employment should be asked to carry some form of certificate to show that they were healthy, and that it would be safe for European families to admit them into their homes as nurses and servants.

seconded the amendment.

moved, as an amendment to the above motion by Mr. Meyler: To omit all the words after “That” for the purpose of substituting “in the opinion of this House the Government be requested to consider the advisability of appointing a Commission without delay to inquire into and report upon the present methods of segregating lepers in the Union of South Africa.” He said that early in the session he put a substantive motion on the paper dealing with the subject of leprosy, but he withdrew that in favour of the motion of the hon. member for Weenen. In 1911 and 1912 the Union Parliament resolved that a Commission should be appointed to enquire into the question of leprosy, but no such Commission had been appointed. Prior to Union the matter was left at a standstill, because when it was debated it was said that Union was likely to take place, and that then the whole subject of leprosy would be dealt with on a uniform basis. He accepted that argument as correct, but Union had been in existence for three years, and things were exactly the same as they were in 1906, when he was Chairman of the Select Committee which considered the matter. In 1909 a similar committee was appointed, and brought up a similar report, but only one recommendation was acted upon, and that was the appointment of a Medical Board for the purpose of examining all lepers on Robben Island. Every person confined as a leper was a leper; he was convinced of that, for he had full confidence in the Medical Board, which at intervals examined every case. The friends of lepers and the lepers themselves were carefully watching the course of events, and he would very much regret if anything were said to handicap the Administration in dealing with the leper. He wished to refer to the present method of dealing with leprosy, and would divide his remarks under two heads. First of all, was the method of segregation correct; and, secondly, if segregation were necessary, were the asylums up to date, especially Robben Island? Many authorities held that leprosy was very contagious, but, on the other side, there were leading authorities who asserted that it was neither contagious nor infections. Again, others said it was slightly contagious. That made one hesitate to express an opinion, and made one feel that it was necessary for the Union to deal with the matter on a scientific basis. An Indian Commission, which had sifted eight cases of alleged leprosy contagion, found that in only one case was there proof of direct contagion, and that was the case of a man who had swept the floor of a leper asylum for twenty years. At Robben Island, where they had a history of nearly a hundred years to go upon, there was not a single ease of contagion that would bear investigation. We had one most unfortunate case, in Pretoria however, that of Sir George Turner, but in this instance the contagion was due to direct inoculation.

The next point was, were they justified in this Province in continuing the nap-hazard manner of segregation that now prevailed? (Hear, hear.) If segregation were necessary, it must be done in to and in entirety. (Hear, hear.) The idea in connection with segregation was that 15 years was the average life of a leper. After 15 years—of course, there were exceptions—they either got cessation of the disease or death. Theoretically, the idea was that if they took every leper in South Africa to-day and shut him up inside four walls, after 15 years they would have no more leprosy in this country. They had been told by the Minister that half the lepers in this country were free in the country. If that were so, was it fair that, roughly, 800 or 900 should be confined? It was a fact that we could not accommodate the present number of lepers in the asylums available. Let them take the history of other countries. In Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Russia, Italy, and Spain they had got a modified form of segregation. They had a more advanced method of doing it. The latest authorities held that there were two kinds of leprosy, in the early stages the kind of leprosy that was not contagious, then they had arrested cases, and they had the tubercular cases, which, if they were poor and unable to be provided for by their relatives, were put into asylums. The leprosy reformers in this country said that we should classify our lepers, according to modern ideas, and take our advanced tubercular lepers and put them into asylums. (Hear, hear.) They should take their anaesthetic lepers in the early stages, and place them under observation, but not confine them. They should allow the arrested cases as much freedom as possible, keeping them under medical observation. They got another class of reformers, who said that they should liberate every case of leprosy, and that leprosy was far less contagious than diseases with which people were allowed to walk about the streets every day. They held that by our modern methods of sanitation, etc., we were solving the question of leprosy, and that in time the disease would die out. Why? Because the latest idea—and he thought an incontrovertible idea now—was that leprosy was not hereditary. He would part from this subject by briefly summarising his views. If we were going to carry on segregation, were we doing it in a proper way? No, we were not. If we must have segregation, every leper ought to be collected and put in an asylum. If we were not going to segregate them, then we should stop segregation of leprosy at once and adopt other methods. We had in the Union an asylum for lepers in the Transvaal, one in the Free State, we had Emjanyana for natives, and Robben Island for white and coloured. There was no difficulty in putting the Transvaal and Free State lepers and natives on the mainland, but when it came to the poor lepers of the Cape Province there-seemed to be a great difficulty in overcoming this question of the mainland, and where on the mainland.

Robben Island was not a suitable place for a leper settlement. He thought the Minister would accept that. Robben Island had many wants, but one of the great considerations was the inaccessibility of these patients from their relatives. The banishment would not be so badly felt, perhaps, if these people were placed on the mainland, but Robben Island meant that they were absolutely separated from the world. They felt that if the question were once settled by a competent body of men, and Robben Island was to be their future home, they would be satisfied. It was this feeling from year to year of unrest and uncertainty which prevented them from settling down and making Robben Island what it ought to be. They had this report from Dr. Bayon on Robben Island, an excellent report, and made by a very able man, but he regretted very much indeed that the Minister of the Interior should have begun this old method of employing an expert imported into this country to write up the blue books instead of attending to the duties for which he was imported. What he wanted to bring out was that Dr. Bayon doubted Robben Island. He began his remarks as follows: “The question of the suitability of Robben Island is an extremely thorny one. It appears that the island in the past has been the home and refuge of so much evil that it is impossible to say anything in its favour without arousing indignation and contra diction. On my arrival here it was soon evident to me that the simplest way out of the difficulty would have been to condemn the place straight-away and leave the Government the task of finding a more suitable position. In this fashion I would have saved myself a great deal of trouble, and no doubt have been able peacefully to await the development of further events.” Continuing, the hon. member quoted from the conclusion of Dr. Rayon’s report: “An experimental garden should be laid out on Robben Island for those lepers capable and willing to undertake farming on the mainland. After a period of probation there appears to be no disadvantage in allowing them to leave for a farm specially set aside for the purpose. Members of Parliament with an interest in the leprosy question would help the solution of the difficulty by continuing to search in their constituencies for a suitable location for a leper farm.”

In conclusion, the hon. member said he felt that this question of Robben Island and the mainland must be settled. It had been going on for years now. If Robben Island was going to be maintained as their future asylum in the Cape Province, then no money should be considered too great to give these poor people every comfort they required. Why not give them their own local government? In other asylums they did not put advanced cases and cases in the early stages of the disease together. They must remember that they had got no known remedy for leprosy, which was a most heartrending condition of affairs. Let these poor people be put upon the island in proper stone buildings; give them a farm for growing vegetables; give them their food, and pay them for any work they did, so that they could purchase luxuries. He had several letters from the medical staff— not the present medical staff—showing that they had been far from satisfied at the way things were being carried on. He hoped that the Government would appoint ft Commission to deal with the leprosy question. He made this appeal on behalf of the public, and on behalf of the medical profession, himself included, and on behalf of these poor, unfortunate people, to have this Commission appointed. The Minister might say that it meant delay, but it would not have caused much delay when this resolution was first put down. Personally, he said he was not justified in asking the Minister to spend £500,000, certainly not solely upon the recommendation of Dr. Bayon, who had only been a short time in the country. The only way would be to have a Commission to collect all sorts of opinion, and sift all the material, and lay down a definite policy. What did it mean for the Minister’s own comfort and security of action. If that Commission recommended Robben Island as a suitable leper asylum, then it was better for the Government to spend half a million of money and make it something that they could be proud of instead of something that they were ashamed of. (Hear, hear.) Unless this was done the same question would crop up year after year.

seconded the further amendment.

said he wanted to move an amendment to the amendment proposed by Dr. Hewat, which was, to add after the word “upon,” in line 3, the following words, “the prevalence of leprosy and.” He did not agree that this disease of leprosy was a highly contagious one. In Great Britain they had only one isolated case where the disease had been contracted by contagion. That was the case where a man used to sleep with his brother, who was a leper, and when the latter died, he wore his clothes. It was recognised that if leprosy was contagious, it was so in a very low degree. Only three or four weeks ago he read a report of some remarks by the Medical Officer of the Metropolitan Asylums Board (in connection with the Metropolitan Asylum in London), where it was stated it would be an act of cruelty to take these poor people from their friends. A distinguished German scientist, who had studied the question of leprosy, stated that there must be an intermediate host in the life history of the germ. He found there was strong presumptive evidence that the other host was the goat, and he based his opinion on the facts that leprosy was a disease of mountainous districts where goats were bred, and that improvements in the amount of leprosy were due not so much to segregation as to the diminution in the number of goats in the several countries where leprosy existed. It would be interesting to know if goats were largely used in this particular district in Natal?

Yes, very largely.

said that this was a point that might be taken into consideration. Concluding, he hoped that the amendment would be acceptable, not only to the hon. member for Woodstock, but the House.

seconded the amendment to the amendment.

expressed sympathy and concurrence with the remarks of the hon. member for Woodstock that no money should be spared in this matter. He took the opportunity of bringing to the notice of the House the ease of John Heyns, and that Dr. Bayon should be requested to make an examination of this young man in the presence of certain independent practitioners. He knew that he was making an unusual request, but he took this opportunity of bringing this matter before the House. Heyns was first declared to be a leper. He was then, on medical testimony, released, and declared not to be a leper. Heyns then brought an action for illegal detention on Robben Island against the Government, and the case concluded with another examination, and a verdict that adhered to the original verdict, and reversed the verdict that he was not a leper. He asked hon. members to nut themselves in the position of this young man. In the minds of a large number of people—he did not say that he shared that opinion—was the opinion that Heyns was being segregated on Robben Island on evidence that was not more trustworthy than the evidence that declared that he was not a leper. It was alleged that his blood had been contaminated, in some way or other, by an instrument that had been used for examining an undoubted leper about an hour or two before. This did not affect the question at issue. The point was, that there was a doubt, and was it not worth while to try and remove that doubt once and for all? He supposed the Minister would reply that it would be undignified to ask Dr. Bayon to make an examination in the presence of others. He appealed to hon. members who belonged to the medical profession as to whether they would consider it undignified, if the circumstances were explained to them, to make an examination of such a character and so remove any vestige of doubt. He did not believe that any man of the eminence of Dr. Bayon would refuse to consent to make such an examination in the presence of any persons who might desire to be present. The Minister could put it to Dr. Bayon as a request and not as an order. He thought that if Dr. Bayon were made acquainted with the circumstances he would readily grant the request and conduct the examination. He understood that Heyns refused to be examined in January. Could anyone be surprised? First he was told he was a leper, then he was told that he was not a leper, and finally he was told that he was a leper.

That is incorrect.

You mean he was not told that he was not a leper?

I mean—

Would the Minister care to make an explanation?

The hon. member must continue his remarks.

said that at any rate there was a grave doubt, and the matter should be cleared up.

said he had been a member of a Commission in connection with Robben Island, and had personally listened to the complaints which had been made. It seemed to him that this House was blind to the hardships of these people on Robben Island. The climatic conditions of that island, he held, were bad for the eyes and lungs of these poor lepers, Why could they not be removed to the mainland? Had the Minister made an investigation throughout the Union, he asked, to see whether another place could not be found for them? Surely now that they had Union a more suitable place could be found for them. They had found a place for lepers at Pretoria. The lepers at Robben Island sent in entreaties for removal. No costs should be spared to ensure the comfort of those poor sufferers. At his request six lepers had been transferred to the Bloemfontein Asylum, and they were very grateful for it, and he held that humanity demanded that the others should be similarly dealt with. He supported the amendment of the hon. member for Woodstock.

said he represented one of the largest leprosy institutions, to which place the lepers from Bloemfontein had been removed. He pleaded the case of the lepers in the Pretoria Asylum, who should be given more ground for exercise. They should be supplied with every means of entertainment, and should be given an opportunity of enjoying the poor life they had. They should be properly registered and should have every privilege which other people enjoyed. The institution was too small. Why were they not supplied with rifles? They were fond of shooting. They were shut up there out of the world, and were entitled to every reasonable privilege, and not even debarred from taking part in politics if they wished to.

thought that it was necessary to inquire into the prevalence of leprosy in this country. As an hon. member had rightly remarked, those who had visited Robben Island could not but be imbued with the idea that they had to do something for those persons on the island. He had no complaints whatever against the mode of investigation and the precautions taken before men were sent to Robben Island, and he was quite convinced that the medical men who had to investigate these cases took conscientious pains to see that none but those who were infected with the disease were segregated; but there was a great deal of terror in the country; any man who had the slightest suspicion that he had leprosy would do the utmost he could to hide the disease, because he did not want to be sent to Robben Island. The people there were segregated at a place where it was difficult for their friends from the country to see them; and it was quite an undertaking for people from the country to come and see them. It was felt that the climate did not suit them— especially in the case of people who had come from higher altitudes and who came from a dry climate. They felt they were not happy there, and also that there was no scope for their being employed usefully. What was wanted was an investigation into some way of meeting these difficulties, and to see whether these people could not be removed to the mainland. There was the desire of the people on the island to be removed to the mainland, and there was also terror in the minds of other people to have a settlement of lepers amongst them. He thought that the fear of having these people in their midst was unwarranted, that investigation should educate public opinion as to the fact that there was no such great fear of contagion, if matters were properly regulated. They should not look to the matter of expense, and it was their duty at any cost to make the lives of these people as happy as they could be —(hear, hear)—people who were segregated for the well-being of others. He thought the Minister of the Interior should stretch a point, and once and for all settle the minds of these people on the island and let them feel that something was going to be done. They had enough land in the country where these people could carry on an occupation—many of them were farmers —and if they could carry on a suitable occupation there they would not be a burden to themselves, and he would not say a burden on the State, because they should not deal with the question as a matter of £ s. d.

said that while they all agreed with the humanitarian motives of the hon. members who had spoken on that question, as to what had been said about the re-examination of a certain patient, he did not know whether anything new would be revealed if that examination took place. As a matter of fact, as the hon. member for Woodstock (Dr. Hewat) had pointed out, nothing really definite was known about the disease. The men who had spent the most time and the most care in examining the disease were the most cautious in the statements they made.

The hon. member went on to quote authorities with a view to showing that there was very little danger of contracting the disease even where persons had been in close contact with lepers, and so far as was known there was no case known where it had passed from one to the other, no evil results having been traced to inoculation. From the evidence on the subject, he had formed the opinion that they in that House should leave the question alone. The experts could be trusted to do their utmost in order to ascertain what the real cause of the disease was, and to find a cure, and so far as the humanitarian side was concerned, he had no doubt they were all willing to do what they could.

rose to support the motion of the hon. member for Weenen, because he knew the district there, and he was very desirous of drawing attention to some of the conditions which existed. The hon. member for Woodstock had sufficiently detailed to the House the technical side of the evil by which they were surrounded and the shocking conditions which prevailed in regard to this loathsome disease. He would like to point out to the hon. Minister that in the particular district mentioned by the hon. member for Weenen, the Zulus had no disinfectant but water. In that particular locality several most important streams which ran down through Natal took their rise. There was a feeling amongst the people living down the streams who made use of the water—of course, it might be but a sentimental idea—but whether or not, a feeling of disgust existed in the knowledge that these unfortunate people, afflicted with the disease, washed themselves in the upper waters of these streams which flowed down for the use of those below. He would ask the hon. Minister, therefore, to take all possible measures to put an end to that conditions of things, and for the benefit of the afflicted persons themselves, cause segregation to be brought about. With regard to the wider question, he thought the hon. member for Zoutpansberg had stated the case very mildly. Speaking of his own district, he would say that while he did not bring any charge against the miners on the Rand, there was no doubt that natives had come back to the upper ends of Natal not only ruined physically by these diseases, but morally ruined also, since those mines had been started. He hoped the hon. Minister would draw the attention of the local authorities to the matters referred to, with a view to a remedy being provided.

said it was a pity that this discussion should be brought before the House year after year as it was brought before the Cape House in the past. He really did think that the time had come that the Government should be prepared to take up a definite attitude on the question. If there was one thing which was more sad than another in connection with the matter, it was owing to the fact that as the result of the dilatoriness of that House they had not yet made up their minds what course to adopt. Anybody who had read the report by the doctor now in charge of the scientific work at Robben Island must recognise that the time had now come that the Government would have to arrive at some definite decision on the question; a decision which he felt perfectly certain hey would not arrive at out of any party consideration whatever. But the House should consider that it was its bounden duty to do its very best in the sad circumstances. He had been very much impressed with the character of the report. There was no doubt that they had incontrovertible evidence that the disease was contagious, so that if they were prepared to deal with it, it must be in a thoroughly practical manner. He believed his hon. friend would be taking the best possible course if he would accept the amendment of the hon. member for Woodstock, and the further amendment moved by the hon. member for Boksburg. It might be said that they had got into the fashion of appointing Commissions on every possible subject, but on a question of that sort the House would not begrudge the expenditure which might be entailed in the investigations of a committee in dealing efficiently with the subject. At any rate, they would have some finality. A large amount of discontent existed in the country, because there was a large section of people segregated on Robben Island, another section segregated in the Cape of Good Hope, a leper asylum in the vicinity of Pretoria, and he was not certain whether there was not another in the neighbourhood of the Free State.

A considerable amount of agitation arose in the Free State with a view to getting the Free State lepers removed from Robben Island. Now these lepers had been shifted to Pretoria. Consequently every leper who was removed to Robben Island considered that he was receiving less favourable treatment than those placed in asylums on the mainland. That was one of the reasons why a great deal of dissatisfaction had occurred over Robben Island. A Commission would be able to enquire whether there had been an increase in the spread of the disease, and it would also be able to make representations as to which was the most suitable place for the segregation of the unfortunate people. It should be remembered, in dealing with these questions, that the lepers were being segregated in the interests of the health of the whole of the people and the segregation must be of a thorough, efficient, and practical character, which there was no doubt was not the case at the present moment. There were instances in which the families of lepers, owing to the fear that the sufferers would be sent to Robben Island, were deliberately keeping back the notification of the disease, and the result was that they would never stamp the disease out of the country. (Hear, hear.) That was a position of the most serious character, and one which the House should not be afraid to face. If a Commission of standing were appointed to go into the whole question, and if it recommended that the most suitable place for segregation was Robben Island, the first duty of the Government would be to remove the lunatics there, because there was no room on the island for both lepers and lunatics. As these people were being segregated through no fault of their own, it was the duty of the State to make the lot of these unfortunates as tolerable as it was possible to be made within reason. We could do a great deal more for the lepers than we were doing at the present time. A sad feature was that these unfortunate people on Robben Island did not know what to do with their time. A large number of them were used to working on the land, and a system should be devised whereby they would have an opportunity of passing their time on the land and be given extra comforts in return for the work they were able to do. (Hear, hear.) If the Minister appointed a Commission of the character he (Sir Thomas) had indicated, and the Commission supplied a practical report, he was perfectly certain that the House would be prepared to abide by the Commission’s decision, and then we should be able to come to some finality in the matter. It was the duty of the House and the Government to do something, and having decided on a satisfactory policy, to make every provision for the satisfactory housing of these unfortunate people. He appealed to the Government to appoint a Commission to do all they possibly could to stamp out the disease, and to relieve as far as possible the unfortunate position of these poor people, who through no fault of their own were suffering from the most terrible disease that could afflict humanity. (Cheers.)

said he was entirely at one with all that had been said from a sympathetic and humanitarian point of view. The fact that there were four provinces and four sets of circumstances to deal with, however, caused some delay in the practical dealing with the question. The Government thought that in addition to all the opinions it had, it would be well to get a man who was admitted to be an expert—one of the best men they could get—to give them his advice over and above the advice the Government had had from many quarters. The question now, therefore, was to try and arrive at something practicable. He would remind the hon. member for Zoutpansberg that the Tuberculosis Commission had been working for some time. As to the amendment of the hon. member for Woodstock, it was not that he (Mr. Fischer) did not fully sympathise with his arguments, but he did want to get past the stage of talking about the matter and to get to doing something practicable. (Cheers.) He thought it was high time we did. That was the only objection he had to a Commission, for ft would mean more delay.

A Commission was agreed to two years ago!

A Commission was not agreed to, but the House asked the Government to take into consideration the advisability of appointing a Commission. The matter was seriously taken into consideration and it was thought best rather than appoint any more Commissions, to get an expert to deal with the facts. In the last 20 years we have had no less than eleven separate Commissions dealing with this question.

Select Committees.

Commissions and Select Committees which have led to absolutely nothing.

Proceeding, the Minister said he did not propose that there should be any more Commissions, but that they should get to doing something on the strength of the information the Government had in the reports. They proposed to proceed on the lines of Dr. Rayon’s report, and to make the most of Robben Island that could be made of it at once. (Cries of dissent.) He thought it was high time to get something practicable, and accordingly he had sent a circular to every member of Parliament of the Cape Province asking whether land was available in his constituency suitable for a leper settlement. In reply, he had one suggestion referring him to a certain place, but the people of this place at once objected, and showed him (the Minister) another place where he ought to go, but it was found to be unsuitable for the purpose. For one thing it was far away from a railway station. Every other member said there was not a single place in his district where a leper asylum could be established. In his report Dr. Bayon said: “On the other hand, I dare to say and uphold that I consider that many of the accusations brought forward against Robben Island are absolutely devoid of all foundation, and that the principal disadvantages could be radically removed.”

They had decided to put before the House this position, that they would take the site of Robben Island and make the best of it in accordance with the report of Dr. Bayon. That was a practical suggestion. They had had those who objected to the patients being kept on Robben Island, but when it come to pointing out some other place where they should be kept they had no practical suggestion to offer. This was what Dr. Bayon said: “If, on the other hand, they are ready to find the requisite extra expenditure to enable necessary improvements to be carried out promptly, then I believe the island will bear favourable comparison with any other institution which is utilised for the care and treatment of lepers.” Dr. Bayon went on to say: “I can but repeat that though I consider that the drawbacks of Robben Island are real and very serious, still they can be removed if adequate steps are taken now. My opinion agrees completely with the statement of the Medical Officer of Health for the Cape Colony, 1903, page xxxix. of his report.” As to the question of climate, it was perfectly true that some objection was raised, but they had to be guided not by the kindly feelings of some of those who were interested in patients, but by the opinion of experts, upon whose advice they must be prepared to act. Dr. Bayon said: “I have no fear in stating that I do not consider the climate of Robben Island unhealthy.”

That is wrong.

There is another expert saying that is wrong. Proceeding, the Minister said that Dr. Bayon went on to say: “I must admit though that serious disadvantages are present, due almost wholly to the present deficient water supply and to insufficient and inadequate buildings, but I am of the opinion that these defects can be remedied.” He (the Minister) wished to put before the House a proposal which would enable these defects to be remedied. Further on Dr. Bayon said “… I can frankly say that the Robben Island Leper Asylum, despite its great drawbacks and the overcrowding, can still compare favourably with many other similar institutions…”. Instead of going on talking as they had been doing since 1883, they must now decide on some practical means of dealing with this question. Let them face the fact that Robben Island was a healthy place, that it could be made suitable by necessary expenditure, and they were prepared to put suggestions before the House to grant the necessary means to make Robben Island what it ought to be. In regard to the question of removing the patients to the mainland, although the question bad been debated in the Cape House for many years no practical suggestion had been introduced, except this, that Vygeboom was once bought, but owing to the tremendous agitation that was made against its use as a leper settlement, it was re-sold. Supposing, again, they were to keep the lepers confined on Robben Island, he maintained that they would be able to give them greater liberty and provide them with better facilities and less inconveniences on Robben Island than if they were placed on the mainland. The majority of the opinions expressed seemed to be either that they should say that segregation was unnecessary, or that, if segregation were necessary, it should be thoroughly done. They might not succeed in one or two years in carrying out segregation thoroughly, but he thought that in a few years they would be able to get to such a stage that danger would be obviated, and they would eventually go in for segregation thoroughly and completely, in the hope of stamping out the disease in the course of years, as Dr. Bayon said had been done in other parts. If these patients were placed on the mainland, they could not be allowed to roam about just as they liked. It was very natural that these people in their sad case should brood over their grievances and magnify them. It was said that they wanted to see more of their own people. How would that work in with the idea of thorough segregation? He said was it not better that they should be on Robben Island and allowed to roam there, instead of being more closely confined on the mainland? Dr. Bayon considered that the removal of the lunatics from Robben Island should be immediately attended to. The Minister went on to say that they should first decide upon that policy, because it would ensure absolute segregation under favourable circumstances. These people ought to be given to understand that anything which could be done for their comfort which had not been done in the past should be done for them in the future. After they had done this they could make a thorough investigation. Don’t let them try and work miracles at once. These were some of the points that should weigh with the House.

To meet all the difficulties would mean enormous expense. He heard several members say that they should never mind the expense. He went with them a good way in that statement himself. What they should do was to get ready for their future. He accepted the suggestion of the hon. member for Weenen and the amendment of the hon. member for Zoutspansberg with regard to the latter. He only wanted to say that everybody could not do exactly as he liked. Rightly or wrongly, these people were under the care of the Provincial Councils, and they could only use some moral suasion with them to do more for these people. He was afraid if they referred this to a Commission there would be more delay. What he wanted to do was to set about doing something at once.

What are you going to do?

Nobody knows.

said he intended to tell them. They intended to remove the lunatics and criminal lunatics from Robben Island.

Are you going to make a proposal in this House?

In this House before the House breaks up. Continuing, the hon. Minister said they intended to act fully up to Dr. Bayon’s report, and to make the buildings on Robben Island suitable, and see how the water supply could be improved, and generally to see how they could make the island all that it should be. He intended to deal with the question as it affected Natal also. He knew that the law had never been enforced, and it was interesting to know the views that were taken by the authorities there. It was on record that the Natal Government had decided to treat the question more as a matter of political expediency than from a strictly hygienic point of view, and in consequence the law there was a dead letter to a great extent. They would try and deal with the whole matter, but they could not do it at once. The great urgency was here in the Cape Province, and not so much in Natal. With regard to the Bloemfontein Asylum, the patients there had been removed to Pretoria. He knew he was treading upon dangerous ground, because there were so many doctors in the House, but when the hon. member for Boksburg talked about the goat theory, there had also been many other opinions upon that point. It was a case where doctors differed. Dr. Jonathan Hutchinson stated that leprosy came from the eating of fish.

That theory is as dead as the dodo.

Yes, I think the fish theory is dead, and no doubt the goat theory has a similar fate in store. Continuing, he said the hon. member for Boksburg quoted an authority to show that lepers generally came from mountainous districts, but Dr. Hutchinson thought they came from the coast, and the disease arose through the eating of fish. It was better to deal with the subject practically. He did not think that the wants of lepers were better provided for in any part of the world than at Pretoria. At the same time, he would look into the points raised by the hon. member for Pretoria, South. Dealing with the case of Heyns, the Minister said that after careful investigation, Heyns was declared to be a leper. At a certain stage of his stay on Robben Island he was considered to be one of those cases where the disease had been arrested. That was a hope, unfortunately, that was found to be ill-founded, for it was discovered that the disease was attacking him again. Thereafter he was removed back to the Island. He brought an action against the Government for illegal detention, and one of the first members of the Bar took up his case. During the course of the case the matter was, with the consent of all the parties, referred to one more able medical man to make a test with the nasal secretion of Heyns. The report came before the Court, and on the strength of that report his counsel said he could not continue the case. In the face of this report, which declared him to be a leper, the Government had no option but to send him back to the Island. When Dr. Bayon took this case as an interesting one, and wished to institute an examination, Heyns refused to allow this to be done. Surely after that he did not think the case was one which should be brought before Parliament. The opinion was that he was a leper, and the opinion had been confirmed. If the specialist made the examination and chose to do it in the company of others, he (the Minister) would have no objection. But he was afraid he could not meet the hon. member when he asked that he (the Minister) should insist upon the presence of these others. He would give his attention to the matter which had been brought forward by the hon. member for Klip River, and anything that could be done would be done. He hoped that the difficulty in the future would be met by complete segregation. In conclusion he said he regretted he could not see his way clear to appoint a Commission because it would not be in the interest of the lepers or of the immediate action they were taking.

said he concluded from the Minister’s answer that it was resolved by the Government that the lepers must remain on Robben Island, and that was to be done on the strength of Dr. Bayon’s report. He did not wish to say anything against Dr. Bayon’s capabilities. He might be a brilliant man, but before the Government accepted the report of Dr. Bayon and decided upon Robben Island as the most suitable place for leper segregation, Parliament should have something to say and should carefully go into the matter through a Commission. He reminded the House of the motion of the hon. member for Woodstock in the matter of the appointment of a Commission. That was in 1912. The Minister had said that since 1883 there had been eleven Commissions, and committees had also gone into the matter. What had been the result of these Commissions? What was the result of the motion accepted here last year? The arrival of Dr. Bayon, he held, was not the outcome of last year’s motion. Dr. Bayon might be an extremely able man, but he doubted his ability to judge upon the suitability of Robben Island. Dr. Bayon said in his report that the island was fertile. They knew that was not the case. The speaker had himself been there, and knew there was no worse ground, or ground which was less fertile. Then the island lacked water, and, as far as the climate was concerned, it was unsuitable for lepers. The Minister had said that at Pretoria the lepers were made as happy as possible. Had the same been said about the lepers on Robben Island? Why should a distinction be made in the treatment of lepers of the various parts of the Union? If a suitable place could be found for the lepers in the vicinity of Pretoria, he emphasised that a suitable place on the mainland could be found for the other lepers. The removal of the insane from the place would no doubt be some alleviation of the existing conditions. If Robben Island had to be made suitable it would mean an enormous outlay. He urged the appointment of a committee to go into the matter, and if that committee considered Robben Island was unsuitable, no one would object. Dr. Bayon, capable though he was, should keep to his profession and could not judge the fertility of Robben Island. He hoped the amendment of the hon. member for Woodstock, with the further amendment by the hon. member for Boksburg, would be accepted, and that action would not be taken before a proper inquiry had been made. (Hear, hear.)

said that he thought the tendency of the debate had been to stray away from the original motion which was brought forward by the hon. member for Weenen with the object of drawing attention to the great prevalence of leprosy in Natal. They had had all sorts of discussion brought in by amendments, of matters which had been discussed in the House before, but the question of the prevalence of leprosy in Natal had never been brought previously before the House. He had a considerable amount of sympathy with the amendments, however, and would vote for them. The hon. member for Roodepoort had tried to make out that there was very little danger of contracting leprosy through infection, but he thought the hon. member would not himself be tough enough, salted as he was, to stand the squirting of the leprosy bacillus into an open wound. He did not understand how the reports had been arrived at when they stated that there were only 146 lepers in Natal. There were parts of Natal in which the foot of white men was very rarely set, where, from his own experience, he knew they had kraals of natives who were affected by leprosy. How had those kraals got into that state? He believed that these Magistrates’ reports and census returns were based on the visits of mounted police to the native locations. These policemen provided the matter for the returns, and the last thing in the world they were thinking about was leprosy, and if there was leprosy he doubted if they would know it. The disease was very prevalent in other parts of Natal than that mentioned in the motion. What was the object of the motion? It was to inquire into the prevalence of the disease in Natal. The hon. member for Boksburg had referred to the opinion of scientists that goats might have been an intermediary in the spread of the disease. Goats were kept both in the mountainous districts and on the flats also, and had access to the native huts. If that theory were correct, there could not be a more suitable place than South Africa for the spread of the disease in that way. With regard to the case mentioned by the hon. member for Jeppe, the poor young man’s mind should be put at rest, once and for all. Why should the Government deny further inquiry? It seemed to him that Dr. Bayon would not have the slightest objection to an inquiry by himself and another doctor in consultation. The hon. Minister was dragging a red herring across the track in connection with the question of Robben Island.

said he was not an expert in the matter of leprosy, but was able to express an opinion, and he agreed with what had been said by the hon. member for Fauresmith. He could not agree with Dr. Bayon’s views as to the fertility of Robben Island. In spite of the expert’s opinion, he did not think the climate a suitable one for lepers, and the ground was unfertile, and consisted of tones and sand. Dr. Bayon had remarked in his report that a number of the patients were opposed to the island. As a matter of fact, all the patients were opposed to the island. A Commission, he argued, was the most suitable body to go into the question of the suitability of the island; there was a strong feeling in the country on the subject, and he therefore hoped the Minister would reconsider his decision. Numerous petitions were annually presented on this matter, and these petitions should receive due consideration. The House had taken a certain resolution last year. A number of members met and nominated the hon. members for Clanwilliam, Woodstock, Denver, and the speaker to search for a suitable place for the lepers. That place was found, but was disapproved by the Minister. The Minister should now accept the amendment moved by the hon. member for Woodstock and have another search made on the mainland. If the Commission reported in favour of Robben Island, the speaker would be satisfied.

moved the adjournment of the debate.

The motion was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until tomorrow.

moved that all papers connected with the appointment of the present marine engineer on the s.s. Pieter Faure, be laid upon the Table of the House.

Agreed to.

laid on the Table a return in compliance with the resolution just adopted.

moved: That copies of the contracts entered into by the Government with the Roberts Victor, Blauwbosch, and Elands Diamond Companies, respectively, with regard to the payment of the Government share in proceeds, together with all correspondence relating thereto, be laid upon the Table of the House.

The motion was agreed to.