from A. J. Louw and 27 others, teachers in the town and district of Heidelberg, Transvaal, praying that the House may take into consideration during the present session the desirability of introducing a Bill, more suitable than Act No. 19 of 1908 (Transvaal), providing for pensions to teachers, their widows and children, and similar petitions from D. Paddon and three others, teachers in the town and district of Heidelberg, and N. J. Swart and five others, teachers in the town and district of Heidelberg.

from W. H. Richards and 196 others, adult residents of Green Point and Sea Point, praying for legislation for the prohibition of the sale of intoxicating liquor to natives throughout the Union.

Papers in connection with inquest held by Assistant Magistrate of Caledon, on 20th February, into circumstances attending deaths of John Andrew White and Francois Johannes Loubser, who were killed in a railway accident near Bot River Station on 10th February, 1913.

moved that the memorandum regarding loans to Cape wineries, laid on the Table on Tuesday, March 11, be referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts.

The motion was agreed to.

moved: That the Minister of Public Works be discharged from further service on the Select Committee on Waste Lands, and that the mover be appointed as a member of that committee.

stated that notice was required of a motion for the appointment of members of a Select Committee, but that, as the motion now offered ‘was only for an exchange of Ministers, he would according to precedent and in order to facilitate the work of the Select Committee, allow it to be made without notice.

The motion was agreed to.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether it is a fact that the superintendent of the Government Farm, Rustenburg, is building a barn or other building with Kafir labour; (2) what wages are these men receiving; and (3) why are white bricklayers not employed?

(1) and (2) The barn is being built by the Department of Agriculture with ordinary farm labour, with the exception of the masonry work, which is being done on contract by a European, for the sum of £20, who has the assistance of the farm hands for the rough work. (2) No coloured bricklayers are employed.

asked the Minister of Finance whether, in order to encourage the establishment of lucrative local industries, the Government is prepared to take into serious* consideration the desirability of placing a duty on such manufactured goods and raw materials as can be produced in the Union?

The hon. member’s question might be taken to imply that the existing Customs tariff does not impose duties upon the importation of manufactured goods and raw materials which can be produced in the Union. A reference to the tariff, however, will show that a very considerable measure of protection is already accorded to such commodities. The advisability, or otherwise, of materially extending the scheme of protection demands the greatest care and deliberation—(cheers)—and all I can say at the present time is that the Government will continue to use their best endeavours towards stimulating local production and industry. (Laughter.)

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that bottle-store licences have been granted to the proprietors of the Royal Hotel and the European Hotel. Pilgrim’s Rest; (2) whether he is aware that these stores are never opened, but that bottles of liquor are sold over the bar counters; (3) whether the police authorities are aware of this constant breach of the law; and, if so, (4) why have no prosecutions taken place?

(1) I have ascertained the fact since the question was asked. (2) The practice referred to by the hon. member no longer obtains. (3) and (4) The police authorities prosecuted the proprietor and barman of the Royal Hotel on the 25th February last. The proprietor was found not guilty; the barman was sentenced to pay a fine of £6. or twelve days’ imprisonment.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) How many Sunday inspections have been made by mines inspectors of the various mines in the Boksburg, Benoni, and Springs districts, respectively, during the six months ended February 28, 1913; (2) how many of these were surprise visits, and in how many instances was notice given to the mines officials; (3) whether on any of these occasions it was discovered that men were working contrary to the mining regulations, and what steps are being taken to render illegal Sunday labour impossible; and (4) at how many mines and at which mines did the inspectors find men and materials being hauled in the shafts without a skipman being on duty, and what prosecutions are being instituted in consequence of such dangerous practices?

No Sunday inspections are carried out by the officials of the Mines Department. I may add that the question of a new regulation calling on mines to send in monthly returns of men employed on Sundays, and the work on which they are employed, is under consideration. The point has been referred to the Sunday Observance Commission, and pending the report of the Commission no further steps are being taken.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) If he is aware that on the Consolidated Main Reef Mines, drilling, blasting, shovelling, and tramming are carried on until 2.30 on Sunday mornings in contravention of section 6 of Act No. 12 of 1911; (2) if he is aware that a notice is posted outside the office of the company stating that leave has been granted by the Government Mining Engineer for this to be done; (3) has any such leave been granted; and, if so, (4) what steps does he propose to take to prevent the Government Mining Engineer giving leave to companies to do such work in violation of the provisions of the Act referred to?

The replies to paragraphs (1), (2), and (3) of the question are in the affirmative. (4) The permission of the Government Mining Engineer in the case referred to was given with my concurrence under the proviso of section 6 of the Mines and Works Act with reference to necessary work, and is temporary only. The work has been rendered necessary by the condition in which the new manager lately found the mine and the necessity for keeping the Saturday afternoon’s shift out of the blasting smoke and fumes at the conclusion of the morning shift.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) Whether he is aware that several of the smaller municipalities in the Union have decided to instal electric trackless tram systems; (2) whether he is aware that, under section 123 of class 4 of the Customs tariff, material for electric tramways run on rails is admitted to the Union on payment of a duty of 3 per cent.; (3) whether he is aware that trackless tram material, although used for identical purposes, is charged 15 per cent. duty less 3 per cent. rebate; and (4) whether, seeing that this duty is a severe handicap on the smaller communities, he will revise the tariff so as to admit all municipal tramway material under section 123 above mentioned?

(1), (2), and (3) The answer is in the affirmative. (4) The anomaly will be kept in view when the time arrives for a general revision of the Customs tariff.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether in the Germiston Post Office an Indian is engaged as a clerk with authority to attend to the general public and to deal with accounts in the Post Office Savings Bank; (2) whether there are no white persons available for these duties; and, if so (3) why preference is given to Indians?

(1) Yes, an Indian assistant is employed at the Germiston Post Office to meet the requirements of the Indian and coloured community in postal matters; (3) there is no European clerk possessing the linguistic qualifications necessary for the satisfactory performance of the duties.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) Whether it is a fact that this year for the first time market agents on the Cape Town Municipal Market have been notified that they must take out general dealer’s licences costing £5 each for 1912 and 1913, in addition to the market agent’s licence issued by the City Council, and also costing £5; (2) whether this is due to the fact that at certain times of the year when there is little South African produce coming into market, the market agents are compelled to deal in imported produce; and (3) whether the Government is prepared to take into consideration the advisability of not insisting upon market agents taking out general dealer’s licences for 1912. 1913, and following years, provided they only deal in imported produce when South African produce is not available?

(1) In demanding that these market agents should take out general dealer’s licences, the Inland Revenue authorities are only following the provisions of the law, which leave no option but to exact payment of duty whenever it comes to notice that the agents’ operations extend beyond dealings in South African produce. (2) I am not in a position to state the considerations which induce the agents to deal in other than South African produce. (3) On reflection, I think the hon. member will see that it would be a virtual impossibility to carry out effectually in practice the limitation which he suggests.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether he is acquainted with the circumstances under which the farm Highlands, belonging to Mr. Stevens, at Louis Trichardt, was placed in quarantine on account of East Coast fever; (2) whether quarantine was removed because it was discovered that a mistake had been made: (3) by whom was the mistake made; and (4) whether he will instruct the Chief Veterinary Surgeon to see that such serious mistakes, causing great inconvenience to the public, are not made by his subordinates in future?

(1) and (2) The answer to these is in the affirmative. (3) The mistake was made in the Laboratory at Onderstepoort. (4) Precautions are being taken at the Laboratory to prevent a recurrence of this mistake. It may be stated that between 2,000 and 3,000 slides are examined per annum, and this is the second mistake which has occurred during the past seven years.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that quite recently a European lady was placed by a conductor in a railway compartment along with five male Kafirs at Cookhouse Station; and that, in spite of her protests, even to the stationmaster at Bedford, she was refused accommodation elsewhere; and (2) whether he will inquire into the matter; and, if this is found to be correct, whether he will give instructions which will prevent similar treatment in future?

(1) In view of conflicting evidence in this case, an inquiry was held at which the complainant and the examiner on the train were present. The opinion of the Inquiring Officer is that the lady did travel with natives as stated, but the examiner, an experienced and reliable official, who is well spoken of (by his superior officers, denies having seen the lady or having been appealed to. He states that had he been appealed to by or seen the lady who would have placed her with other Europeans in a third-class compartment from which natives were specially removed at Cookhouse to make room for European passengers. The stationmaster and staff at Bedford deny having been appealed to by the lady as alleged, but she lodged a complaint with the junior clerk at Adelaide on arrival at that station. The lady was certainly not placed in a compartment beside natives by the railway staff, and it is surprising that she did not, on her own account, leave the compartment and join the other Europeans who were travelling third-class when she found steps wore not being taken to have her removed. The saloon was crowded with natives on the date in question, but there was room for complainant in the compartment reserved for Europeans. (2) The staff have strict instruction to keep Europeans and natives separate. The examiner on the train on which complainant travelled was perfectly well aware of these instructions, and he appears to have made suitable provision for the separation of other European passengers who travelled third-class.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether in view of the fact that the Harbours Service for 1911-1912 has resulted in a substantial surplus the Government will carry out the definite undertaking given by the former Minister of Railways and Harbours to the Harbour Servants, that any servant, admitted to membership of an old pension fund under section 4 of Act No. 31 of 1909 (Cape), who retires on superannuation before he has completed the payment of arrear contributions due by him in respect of his continuous approved service prior to the 1st of January, 1909, for which he has elected to contribute, shall be entitled to add to the period of service taken into account in calculating his annuity the whole of such period as is not at the time of his superannuation covered by his contributions upon payment of half of the contributions which would have been payable for such period?

The position of Railway and Harbour servants in regard to pension rights is clearly defined by law, and the legal provision which exists cannot be set aside or exceeded according to fluctuations in revenue.

This matter was considered last session by the Select Committee on Railways and Harbours, which made no special arrangements for Harbour servants, but on the point being subsequently revived it was decided by the Government, after careful deliberation, to recommend the provision now contained in section 85 of Act 28 of 1912.

Section 85 stipulates that in cases where Harbour servants, admitted to membership of the pension fund, retire before completion of the payment of their arrear contributions, they shall have added to the period of pensionable service taken into account in calculating their pension, one half of any further period of continuous service, the contributions in respect of which will be paid from revenue.

This is as far as the Government can reasonably be expected to go, but in any case the question was definitely settled in the Act after the fullest consideration, and the Government is not prepared to reopen it.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether it is a fact that mining operations in the Murchison Range are seriously handicapped through the want of water; (2) whether the Mines Department discouraged private efforts to supply water to the mines, on the ground that the Government would do so; and (3) what steps are being taken by the Mines Department to fulfil their promises?

(1) The answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative. (2) An application was made to the department for rights to supply water to consumers on the Murchison Range, with Government assistance, and, after investigation of the position, it was decided not to continue negotiations, as the matter appeared to be one which should not be left to private parties. (3) The question of the means to be adopted for the establishment of a water supply the neighbourhood is at present receiving the consideration of the Government.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that a motor-car involved in an accident recently considered by a local Court is the property of the South African Railways; and (2) whether members of the Railway Administration were entitled to use South African Railway motor-cars for the purpose of giving pleasure trips to their friends?

(1) No motor-car belonging to the Railway Administration has been concerned in any accident recently. The hon. member probably has in mind proceedings in the local Court resulting in a chauffeur in the employ of the Administration being fined for exceeding the speed limit. (2) As a general rule, no; but the matter is one that must be left to the reasonable discretion of the Administration.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that any hotelkeeper or hotel-keepers have refused accommodation to any judge on circuit, either absolutely or except on terms exceeding the three guineas allowed to such judge for his daily expenses; (2) whether it is the case that a letter or letters have been sent by any official in his department, addressed to any hotelkeeper or hotelkeepers, stating that if such hotelkeeper refused either to accommodate the judge on circuit, or to accommodate the judge on circuit except on terms exceeding three guineas a day, or both, the liquor licence of such hotelkeeper would be taken away or refused at the next meeting of the Licensing Court; and, if so, (3) whether he will lay such correspondence on the Table of the House?

(1) After notice of the question was given, I telegraphed to the various Registrars of the Supreme Court, and find that the hotelkeeper at Rouxville, in the Free State, tendered, through the Magistrate, to the Registrar of the Supreme Court at five and six guineas respectively per diem, which he subsequently reduced to £1 per diem, which tender was accepted. (2) and (3) No such correspondence can be traced.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the imposition of a stamp as required under the Stamp Duties and Fees Act, 1911, upon all brokers’ notes “where the consideration does not exceed £25” presses unduly harshly on commercial brokers; and (2) whether he will at an early date introduce legislation to remove the grievance?

(1) It is not correct to say that the stamp duty imposed upon brokers’ notes "presses unduly harshly on commercial brokers,” seeing that commercial brokers are entitled by law to recover the duty from their principals. The complaint of these brokers is that the inconvenience to which they are put in order to carry out the provisions of the law is out of proportion to the value of the small parcels of commodities which they are frequently called upon to handle. (2) I am of opinion that there is some foundation for the complaint, and will seize the first opportunity of introducing legislation designed to mitigate the inconvenience.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that the accommodation at Worcester railway station, both for passengers and goods, is wholly insufficient, also that the area of the station yard is far too limited to cope with the volume of traffic; and (2) if so, what steps will the department take to remedy the present state of affairs, and when?

(1) The Administration is aware that improved facilities in certain respects are required at Worcester. (2) A comprehensive scheme of improvements for Worcester, involving considerable expenditure, has for some time been under discussion. Certain works at the passenger station have been approved, and will shortly be carried out, and the remaining portion of the scheme is still receiving consideration.

asked the Minister of Lands what the reason is that grantees of farms under Act No. 40 of 1895 (Cape), who have complied with all the conditions imposed, have to wait such an unreasonable time before receiving title, and whether he will take steps to see that in future the issue of titles is accelerated?

Every effort is made to expedite the issue of the titles in question, and in those cases where delay has occurred it has been due to circumstances outside the control of the department. For the information of the hon. member I would state that the steps necessary for the issue of title to farms hold under licence deed in terms of Act 40 of 1895 (Cape) are briefly the following: (1) Application by the magistrate on behalf of the licensee for the issue of the title-deed. (2) Approval of the Minister thereto. (3) Preparation and examination of title deeds. (4) Approval of Executive Council to the issue of title. (5) Despatch to Cape Town, for the purpose of signature and registration of the deeds. (6) Upon return of the deeds to Pretoria, the preparation and approval of the powers of attorney and other documents necessary to the passing of a mortgage bond in favour of the Government, as prescribed by the Act. (7) Despatch of the mortgage bonds, together with the title-deeds, to the Registrar of Deeds at Cape Town (or, in certain areas which fall under the jurisdiction of the Registrars of Deeds at Kimberley or Vryburg, to the local magistrates) for registration. (8) Despatch of the title-deed after registration of the mortgage bond to the magistrate, for issue to the grantee. It will readily be seen that the steps outlined above, none of which can be dispensed with, must occupy a considerable time, and this is frequently lengthened in cases where the issue of title depends upon the amount of improvement which has been effected on the farm (vide the proviso to section 18 of Act 40 of 1895), the initial report and valuation are frequently unsatisfactory, and further inquiries have to be made of the magistrate. Again, in connection with the passing of mortgage bonds, correspondence with the attorneys acting for the licensee is frequently called for before the power of attorney is in correct form, and altogether, the writing of letters, preparation of title-deeds and Executive Council minutes, and registration of the deeds at the various offices renders it very difficult, even if there are no other causes of delay, to issue title-deeds within less than three or four months of the receipt of the original application. I shall, however, be pleased to cause investigations to be made into any cases where the hon. member can prove to me that unreasonable delay, which could have been avoided, has taken place.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) Whether his attention has been called to the judgment of the Appeal Court in the case of the New Rietfontein Estate Gold Mines, Ltd., versus Misnum, in November, 1912; (2) whether this judgment decided the question as to the interpretation of section 15 of Act No. 15 of 1911 in a sense contrary to that of the opinion of the legal advisers on the question of the mine labourers, viz.: the agreement between the Mozambique Government and Witwatersrand Native Labour Association, which was laid upon the Table of the House on 19th March, 1913; (3) whether he will call the attention of the Minister of Justice to this disregard by the legal advisers of the decision of the Appeal Court: (4) whether the Government will take its law from the Appeal Court, and having in its power to refuse the consent of the Director of Native Labour to the proposed deferred pay arrangements, it will undertake that this consent will not be given until the House has had a further opportunity of discussing this question; and (5) whether the Government will see that any employers who contravene section 15 of Act No. 15 of 1911, by giving effect to this deferred pay arrangement without first obtaining the written consent of the Director are duly prosecuted?

(1) Yes. (2) The judgment referred to, which lays down that under section 15 of Act 15 of 1911 the right of a native to receive the wages due to him may not be ceded by him to a third person without the consent of the Director, in no way indicates that a native may not, without that officer’s consent, contract that payment of his wages shall be deferred. Under the agreement referred to there is no cession of wages, and payment is not made to a third party as in the case of Misnum. (3), (4), and (5) In view of the reply to (2), it becomes unnecessary to answer these questions except that with regard to question (5), I might point out that the right and duty of prosecution in respect of all criminal offences is, by section 139 of the South Africa Act, vested solely in the Provincial Attorney-General, but whenever the officers of my department are advised that section 15 of Act 15 of 1911 has been contravened by any employer, they will lay information before the prosecuting authorities.

Might I ask the hon. Minister who pays the money to the natives, and whether the recruiting agency, with whom the native contracts, pays the money, and not the employers?

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he will consider the facts connected with the case against one P. P. Mare, who was tried at Kokstad on the charge of having stolen 8s. from the Administration and was acquitted, with a view to (a) his reinstatement in the service, (b) the payment to him of his salary from the date of his arrest, and (c) the payment to him of suitable compensation for the indignity to which he was subjected, and the costs incurred for his defence?

The facts connected with the case of ex-Booking Clerk P. P. Mare were carefully considered at the time, and the Administration is not prepared to re-open the question.

on behalf of Mr. P. Duncan (Fordsburg), asked the Minister of Native Affairs: Whether it is the case that N. A. F. Smit, recently a member of the Johannesburg Town Council, has been appointed to a post in the Native Affairs Department carrying a salary of £600, and, if so, what is the nature of the appointment and was it made on the recommendation of the Public Service Commission?

said there was no truth in the statement that any such appointment had been made, contemplated, or conceived by the Department of Native Affairs or the Department of Justice, or, so far as he had been able to ascertain, any other department.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether it is a fact that checkers at the Cape Town Goods Yard are compelled to work 58 hours a week as compared with 54 at Johannesburg, 48 at Pretoria, and 51 at Cape Town Docks; (2) whether it is a fact that during the past three or four months their hours have been from 7—8 a.m. until 9—11 p.m.; and (3) whether the Government is prepared to grant the request of the men for a 54 hours week?

(1) 58 hours have, since some time prior to Union, been the hours of duty of checkers at Cape Town Goods Yard. The comparisons quoted are not strictly correct, but there is a variation in the number of hours worked at the several depots, and the Administration has under consideration the question of securing uniformity in this respect. The whole question of the hours of duty of certain grades of the daily paid staff is now under review and a revised schedule of hours of duty will be issued as early as practicable. (2) There are occasions on which the men work overtime, for which they are paid at regulation overtime rates. It is very seldom, however, that they are asked to work such long hours as stated, and only in one or two special cases when there has been an abnormal rush of traffic have they had to work to 11 p.m. (3) See reply to question (1).

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether any offers of purchase have been received for the Barbary ostriches, if so, when, from whom, at what prices, and with what result; (2) whether the Government has offered for sale any of the said birds, if so, when, to whom, at what prices, and with what result?

(1) No actual offers to purchase North African ostriches have been received, but the following applications were received last year: P. S. du Toit, Graaff-Reinet (May), one pair on percentage chicks system and half feathers; A. C. Mullins, Cape Town (March), one bird on halves system; T. Braithwaite, Natal (April), one bird on percentage system; P. R. Botha, Natal (April), one or two birds. Inquiries as to conditions of disposal of the birds were received from: W. P. Baumann, Free State (May); J. Stegman, Pretoria (April); W. H. Jones. Natal (May); A. Austin, Free State (May); C. J. Lotter, Cape (June); J. F. Hooper, Cape (June). All applicants were given uniform reply that the Government had not decided as to the disposal of the birds, but due publicity would be given when a decision was arrived at. (2) None of these ostriches has been offered for sale.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the increases to checkers recommended by the Regrading Commission have been granted in full by the Government, and, if not, why not?

No specific increases in favour of any members of the stall have been recommended by the Regrading Committee, nor is it the function of the committee to recommend increases. The maximum rates of pay are laid down in the staff regulations introduced on the 1st January last, and authority has been given by the Administration for an increment of 6d. per diem to be paid as from the 1st January, 1913, to any employee entitled, by qualifications and period of service, to an increase under the scale for his grade laid down in the pay schedule, provided such increase is recommended by his senior officer. If an employee’s present rate of pay is abnormally low compared with the rate appearing in the pay schedule, a special increment, not exceeding 1s. per diem, is granted in such exceptional cases, but it is not the intention that every employee should be at once increased to the maximum pay laid down for his position.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to a resolution passed at Pretoria on the 27th of March. 1913, at the Congress of the National Federation of Building Trade Employers, to the following effect, namely, “that realising the lack of opportunity for the youth of South Africa to follow out building trades, this Congress strongly advocates a readjustment of the Customs tariff, so as to encourage the further establishment of large industries all over the Union”; and (2) whether he will, at an early date, take steps to give effect to the resolution?

(1) The reply is in the affirmative. (2) I would refer the hon. member to the statements which have been made in this House, on various recent occasions, as to the attitude of the Government in regard to the revision of the Customs tariff.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether checkers receive only second-class monthly privilege ticket orders; and (2) whether the Government is prepared to grant them first-class privilege ticket orders instead?

replied: (1) Yes, in the Cape and Natal Provinces, as tree passes and’ privilege ticket orders are still being issued under the regulations which were in force in the several Provinces prior to Union. (2) Uniform regulations applicable to the whole of the Union Railways have been drafted relative to the issue of free passes and privilege ticket orders to the staff, and these regulations are at present under review. The question of the class of ticket to be issued to the different grades will be carefully considered before the revised regulations are issued. It is not the intention that checkers should be issued first-class privilege tickets.

asked the Minister of Finance: What amount has been paid by the Government during the past 12 months for clothing and boots made outside of South Africa for the public service, including railway employees?

said he was trying to collect the information and wished the hon. member to leave the question over until next week.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether section 83 of the Railways and Harbours Service Act of 1912 does not safeguard the right of railway servants who were on Fixed Establishment of the Cape Service at the date of Union not to be retired except under the conditions laid down by the Cape Act No. 32 of 1895; and, if so (2) whether the application to such railway servants of the provisions of section 3 of the Railways and Harbours Service Act of 1912 is not illegal?

(1) Section 83 of the Railways and Harbours Act (28 of 19121 does safeguard the rights of Cape Fixed Establishment servants who are contributors to the Cape Civil Service Pension Fund, and such servants are not retired except under the conditions laid down in Cape Act 32 of 1895. (2) There is no specific provision in Act 32 of 1895 (Cape) applicable to the retrenchment of Cape Fixed Establishment servants who are not contributors to the Pension Fund, or who contribute to the Superannuation Fund. That being so, the Railways and Harbours Service Act is the only Act that can be applied to a Fixed “Non-Contributor” in the Railway or Harbour Service, on retrenchment. This course has been followed on the advice of the Law Advisers to the Government, and the benefits to which the staff concerned would have been entitled prior to Union are in no way curtailed by this procedure.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether it is a fact that the sheep dip recommended by the Agricultural Department to South African farmers, consisting of lime and sulphur or caustic soda and sulphur, is considered by the woollen manufacturers of England and eminent authorities on the subject in France, Germany, and the United States to be highly injurious to the staple of the wool; and (2) whether he approves of the sheep dip which has been recommended?

Representations were made by manufacturers of woollen goods in England several years ago to the effect that lime and sulphur and caustic soda and sulphur as sheep dips are injurious to the wool staple. I am not aware of such representations having been made by eminent authorities on the subject in France, Germany, and the United States of America. In 1908, twelve fleeces of wool were sent to a well-known gentleman, who is strongly opposed to the use of lime and sulphur as a sheep dip, with the request that he would have a report made thereon by someone in the manufacturing trade. Three of the samples were shorn from sheep which had been dipped in lime and sulphur at 3, 6, and 9 months’ growth respectively, three from sheep dipped in one kind of proprietary dip at the same stages of growth, three from sheep dipped in another kind of proprietary dip at the same stages of growth, and three from sheep which had not been dipped. The fleeces were numbered by the department from 1 to 12. The gentleman referred to was not informed which dips had been used, and he furnished a report in due course according to the numbers. On the samples dipped at three months’ growth the report stated that the one dipped in lime and sulphur “washed quite naturally,” and, again, “it was a good commercial wool and above the Cape average,” and of the samples dipped in proprietary dips it was said “the colour was good, generally sound, well-grown, and a very desirable class of wool ”; also “I found the wool to wash quite naturally,” and “I had no difficulty in scouring this wool ”; while of one sample dipped in a proprietary dip, which certainly contained no lime, it was said: “At the bottom of one fleece the staple was fastened together, and gave me the impression that they were lime crystals.” As regards the dyeing results, the report stated with reference to the three samples dipped in one proprietary dip: Sample 1, pink shade, level and true; sample 4, blue shade, light and dark in places; sample 7, shade fairly even, not by any means perfect; and then the report adds: “Has the dip had a greater percentage of lime in it than sulphur?” As regards the three samples dipped in the other proprietary dip, the results were stated to be: Sample 2, dark brown, light and dark in places, some being quite olive and others a very heavy and dead brown; sample 5, puce shade, passable, and a good commercial colour; sample 8, light blue, shade not level, true, or even. The results of dyeing the wool dipped in lime and sulphur Showed: Sample 3, olive brown, very uneven and very unsatisfactory; sample 6, blue, lacks uniformity, light and dark in places; sample 9, blue, a rotten one, little yellow in parts. The gentleman referred to also stated the want of uniformity in colours, the uneven and motley appearance, are “ exactly what lime and sulphur dips always do.” But according to the report only one of the nine samples dyed true. The undipped samples showed the best results. The Government has further evidence, based on very high authority in England, that wool giving the best colours comes from South Africa, and that this has been the case for 25 years. With regard to caustic soda and sulphur, the Government is reliably informed that if the dip is used according to formula, the sulphur amply suffices to neutralise the last trace of free alkali in the caustic soda, and samples of wool dipped in this mixture and experimentally washed and dyed do not bear out the contention that the dip renders the wool unsatisfactory from a manufacturing point of view. (2) For these reasons the Government sees no cause for withdrawing the recommendation which has been made for the use of these two dips for the purpose of eradicating scab.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) Which of the farms or portions of farms in the Transvaal Province, which appear on the return laid by the Government upon the Table of the House on the 24th February, 1913, as having been registered during the years 1910 to 1912 in the names of natives, are mission stations, and what is the date of their establishment as such? (2) Why do the following farms and portions of farms included in the return mentioned above not figure in the further return laid upon the Table of the House on the 27th March, 1913, which should have contained the date of purchase by the present holder and the name of the seller, namely. Koffiekraal No. 619, Uitvalgrond No. 617, Rooyewal No. 751, Turffontein No. 297, Rietfontein No. 402, Beerfontein No. 432, Elandsdoorns No. 547, all in Rustenburg district; Goedewaagd No. 465 and Schildpadfontein, in Pretoria district; Vaalwater No. 618 and Eerste Geluk, in Zoutpansberg district; and Leeuwfontein, in Marico district; and (3) whether he is prepared to lay upon the Table of the House the following information with regard to the farms or portions of farms mentioned in paragraph (2), viz.: (a) the character of the tenure; (b) the name of the present holder; (c) the name of the seller; (d) the date of the purchase by present holder; and (e) the date of registration?

said that the information had to be obtained from Pretoria, and would be furnished in the course of a few days.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that many members who were desirous of speaking on the Budget debate were prevented from doing so by a misunderstanding, he would give notice to move, on Thursday next, the suspension of Standing Order No. 74, for the purpose of allowing a continuation of the debate to take place on the motion: “That the Speaker do now leave the chair ”?

I only want to say that I very much regret that the debate should have been brought to a conclusion in this manner, but my hon. friend will recognise that it was not the fault of this side of the House. I am prepared to give two days for the continuation of that debate, viz., Thursday and Friday, and I hope that will satisfy the hon. member. If not, I fear that we shall find ourselves face to face with considerable difficulties.

with leave, asked the Minister of Finance whether his attention has been called to a statement to the effect that the Government contemplate floating a four million loan in London and that the Commissioners of Public Debt have agreed to take one million of that loan?

replied that he had seen the statement that morning, and he had been very much surprised himself when he saw it. It was premature and unauthorised, and only an attempt at a forecast as to what might happen, in regard to what he had stated in his Budget speech.

moved that the second reading be set down for Monday next.

appealed to the Minister not to have the second reading next Monday, as hon. members would not have an opportunity of being able to communicate with their constituents in the Transvaal and hearing what their views were on the matter.

there upon agreed to postpone the second reading until Monday week.

The second reading was set down for Monday week.

That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the adequacy or otherwise of the provision made in the various Provinces of the Union for the accommodation and treatment of persons of unsound mind; the committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers. The hon. member said he moved that motion purely to get at the facts of the matter, and he did not want the Government to think that he wanted to make an attack on them, because that was not the case. In these matters Governments were all alike, and in that respect, too, he feared that the present Government was no better, and no worse, than its predecessors. He found it extremely difficult to get any authorised published statistics in regard to that matter. Before Union it had been the custom in the Cape Province to publish annually a report dealing with asylums, but since Union that seemed to have been dropped, and he had searched for such information between 1910 and 1913 without success, and it had only been possible to glean such information from indirect sources, such as the Magistrates’ reports, the report of the Department of Justice, and that of the Director of Prisons. He wanted to give one or two brief extracts from the Magistrates’ reports to show what the position was. The Magistrate of Cape Town “pressed strongly for additional accommodation to be made for suspected lunatics.” The Magistrate of Wynberg reported that there was no satisfactory provision for dealing with such cases. The Magistrate of Bloemfontein referred to the increase of lunacy, and said that the accommodation at the asylums was now strained to its utmost capacity. The Magistrate of King William’s Town reported that the detention of such cases in extemporised buildings under casual attendance was most unsatisfactory, and might lead to serious consequences. The Magistrate of Queen’s Town reported that all sorts of makeshifts and expedients had to be adopted, since lunatics were not allowed to be taken to gaol and the ordinary hospital refused to receive them. The hon. member went on to say that these extracts showed that it was not from one centre, but from various centres, that these complaints had come. The Director of Prisons had reported that it was very much to be regretted that prison institutions were utilised to such a large extent for the reception of persons of unsound mind, as the accommodation available was in most instances totally unsuited for these persons…. He was, however, pleased to report that, since the coming into operation of the new Prisons and Reformatories Act, there had been a decrease in the number of lunatics admitted… Proceeding, the hon. member said that at the beginning of that session there were several cases before the public dealing with lunatics, which had had the effect of awakening the public conscience to the fact that there was something radically wrong, both in the way in which these lunatics had been treated and the accommodation provided for them. There had been the Kimberley case referred to by the hon. member for Barkly (Dr. Watkins), where it had taken six days for the necessary orders to come to remove the woman to an asylum, and in the meantime she had died. Then there had been the case of a Russian woman who had arrived in Cape Town from oversea, and had developed acute mania in Cape Town; but who, nevertheless, had been allowed to go on the train to Johannesburg, and had to be taken off again at Beaufort West, and sent back. She had died at Touws River on the way back to Valkenberg. There was something radically wrong with the basis of their whole system. There was a third case of a white man who had been kept for ten days in a cell in Cape Town, because there had been no accommodation for him at Valkenberg.

The important thing to remember was the admission of the Minister that the asylum accommodation throughout the Union was absolutely inadequate, and that that was not confined to one centre, but seemed to be general. From the report of the Director of Prisons, the House would see how general it was for people who were mentally afflicted to be put in prison, because there was no other place available. During 1911 no less than 766 lunatics, who were not criminals, were admitted into prison, of whom 170 were Europeans. He did not claim that asylums should be placed in every part of a country so sparsely populated as this was, but it was curious that the complaints as to inadequate accommodation came from the Magistrates in the larger centres, and that it was there that they had to fall back upon the prisons’ accommodation. He was only a layman, but he thought it must be apparent to the dullest mind that mental cases required to be dealt with promptly and that the best chance of salvation lay in their being taken in hand at once. They should be taken away from depressing surroundings, such as prisons. It was inhuman to place a man suffering from lunacy into prison. Inadequate accommodation must mean that not only were many cases not dealt with at all, but also that premature discharges from asylums were made in order to provide room for more pressing cases. It was a notorious fact that certain asylums in this Union were so scandalously overcrowded that it was impossible to isolate or classify patients properly. The Census figures gave them no encouragement. Between 1904 and 1911 there had been an increase in lunacy among Europeans from 1,428 to 1,798. He would be told that this was a matter of great expense. That might be, but it seemed to him that there were certain things which they were bound to spend money upon. It had often been said that it was an easy matter in that House to find money for animals, but difficult to find money for human beings. He thought it was true. The House always opened its purse strings freely when the diseases of animals were to be considered, but when diseases of human beings, questions of public health, etc., were to be considered, it was quite a different story. He put it to the House that it was more economical in the long run to see that lunatics and afflicted people were dealt with properly at the start than to neglect them in that stage so that they became confirmed in their lunacy, and have to keep them for life. He felt disappointed when he looked through the Estimates to find that very little indeed was placed there for this matter.

in seconding the motion, said he must congratulate the hon. member (Mr. Baxter) upon the way in which he had dealt with this subject. In the Cape Province it had been well-known for years past that this question of lunacy would sooner or later have to be dealt with. The system under which they were admitting lunatics to asylums at the present time was the old obsolete system of years ago, which had now become extinct in modern countries. Under the present system it was possible for a medical practitioner to deprive any man of his liberty, and put him into a place where he would be allowed no liberty, simply upon filling up a small paper consisting of about 50 lines. That paper, signed by another medical man, would be sufficient to confine such a person perhaps for a period of 12 months or two years, if not longer. This was placing a great responsibility upon the medical profession, and it certainly spoke well for that profession in this Colony that no cases of abuse had, as far as was known, arisen. As far as he knew there were no cases at the present moment being detained in lunatic asylums that should not be there. That kind of thing, of course, could not go on indefinitely. Sooner or later some cases would arise, and there would be a claim for heavy damages. In England, to prevent this, Lunacy Commissioners were appointed. A person who was supposed to be of unsound mind was sent to a place of observation where he was examined, and then who was sent to a lunatic asylum under observation, and under the jurisdiction of Lunacy Commissioners.

What was wanted very much in this country was a system of homes of observation for lunatics. To-day, the lunatic was examined by two medical men and taken direct into the asylum. That was the wrong system. The man should be taken to a place of observation. How many people were there who were only lunatics for a week or a fortnight? During the week the man was a danger to himself and everybody else; but what could they do for him. They could not hand him over to the police, or anybody else. He could only be consigned to an asylum, and he was kept there, living amongst lunatics for a time, when all he needed was about two weeks’ detention. He felt that there should be difficulty in getting a man into a lunatic asylum, but there should be no difficulty in getting a man into a home of observation. It was true that if the Government acquired a building in Cape Town it would often be empty, but that difficulty could be got over by utilising a portion of one of the existing institutions; the Old Somerset Hospital or the Alexandra Hospital now being built at Maitland. He would give a case in point to illustrate the present position. A medical man goes to a house and is told by the wife that the husband is locked up in a room, and is running about with a knife in his hand. The medical man goes in; but what was he to do with him? He was an absolute danger, but the wife could not turn him out of the house, as there was no place for him to be sent to. The doctor could give an emergency order, but the man could not go to the asylum because it was full. If that man were sent into the street he would most probably be arrested. At present the authorities were doing two things to deal with such cases. They either put the man into a house and gave him his rations—a most expensive thing—or they put him into the police cells. Well, a more disgraceful and shameful way of treating such a man could not be imagined. (Opposition cheers.) Let them take the Robben Island Asylum. The Minister must realise from the reports of the Commissioners and others the disgraceful condition of things existing there. They were taking their coloured lunatics, criminal and otherwise, and putting them on Robben Island, and they were allowing the criminal lunatics to associate with the others, with men and with lunatic children. Their white criminal lunatics were sent to Robben Island also, except the better class, who were sent to Valkenberg. In England they had institutions where people who were well off could put mentally deranged relatives; but in this country they had none of those private institutions. Rich and poor were dependent upon the Government in this country. Some provision should be made to meet present-day requirements. First of all, they should put their lunacy laws on a proper basis, and then they must build one or two more asylums. He thought the Superintendent of Lunacy would boar him out when he said it would be far better to concentrate their asylums than to scatter them about the country. They had to spend money on enlarging their existing institutions.

in supporting the motion, said it was known by everybody that he and the Government’s party were always prepared to do their utmost for the unfortunate people such as lunatics, lepers, etc., and it was to be hoped that the Government would accept the motion. Therefore, the suggestion made by the hon. member for Gardens (Mr. Baxter) to the effect that the members of the Government benches were only prepared to vote money on cattle diseases was unwarrantable and untrue. He deprecated such an expression, and would have opposed the motion had it not concerned these most unfortunate people. He felt quite sure the Government would adopt the motion.

said he had listened carefully to the speech of the hon. member for Cape Town, Gardens, but he did not hear one word in it that could be twisted into an attack on the other side of the House. (Opposition cheers.) But there was an attack on the House, as a whole, for its neglect of human interests. The people they ought to blame were those who had the power, and who ought to carry it out. He did not believe the House would refuse to give money for this purpose, but it had no opportunity of doing so unless the Government asked it. (Opposition cheers.) The Minister had expressed the hope that the money would become available, but that could only be by that Government itself finding the money out of the public revenue, or did it expect some wealthy person to come along and offer it half a million for the purpose, in which case, no doubt, the donor would be told a couple of years later that the money could be accepted only on certain conditions, as happened in the past? (Hear, hear.) Continuing, Dr. Watkins said he was sorry the motion did not go further, for who was almost afraid the Minister would accept it, because it would allow the Minister to go comfortably on until next session, and enable him to say that Government was making an inquiry into the matter. So far as the Government was concerned, no Select Committee was necessary, for the Minister had admitted the existence of a disgraceful state of affairs. Even at the risk of receiving homilies from the right hon. gentleman, he would bring up every case in which delay occurred—delays which were a disgrace to a civilised community. It was a wholly indefensible position for Government to take up to say that a lunatic could not be received in an asylum because of lack of room. As prisons were found for criminals, so should asylums be found for the insane. Until we had proper accommodation for lunatics, we should get very little further in this matter, no matter what laws were in existence. Unfortunately the motion gave the Government another reason for delay, and it had delayed for two years already. He blamed the Minister of the Interior, whoever he might be, for not dealing adequately with this matter, when the Minister must have known that the carrying out of the Lunacy Law was a disgrace to the country. (Hear, hear.) They had been trying to bring home this crying evil, which was better known, perhaps, to members of the medical profession, because they were in constant touch with it. Since Union, the conditions had not improved—in fact, they were very much worse off, seeing that they could only put down a paltry few thousand for this great evil. He welcomed a Select Committee, because it would bring out for the benefit of the House the disgraceful inadequacy of the accommodation. If the Minister or the House did not wake up to the condition of affairs and to their responsibility, the country would see that they did.

heartily supported the motion. He thought it was absolutely essential that something more should be done for the insane. Sometimes days passed before they could be certified by magistrates. In the meantime, pending a reply from Cape Town or Pretoria, these sick people were possibly in the hands of friends, and in the event of violence taking place, those friends had a very disagreeable and perhaps dangerous time of it. During that period they might do much damage. Persons of feeble intellect should not be thrown into prison cells, but be treated with the utmost care, because if they were treated like ordinary criminals then the disease could easily be aggravated. On the treatment received in the early stages of the disease depended the question whether the patient’s condition was improved or aggravated. He thought the attack by the hon. member for Prieska on the hon. member for Cape Town, Gardens, was quite unnecessary, as he (Mr. Baxter) only wished to emphasise the fact that too little attention was in fact paid by the House to human suffering as compared with the sickness of animals. The speaker concluded by saying that he would support the appointment of a Select Committee.

said that this matter had been brought home to him perhaps more forcibly than to any of the members in the House. Many would remember the case of a lady who was being brought from her home at Port Elizabeth to Valkenberg Asylum, and took ill at Worcester station. This was one of the saddest and most pathetic cases that could be brought before any Government. The Government had not realised the urgent necessity of the case, or they would have taken action. This young lady was the daughter of gentle parents. Her father had been a leading citizen in Port Elizabeth, and had taken an active part in public life there. They were in very good circumstances, and wired to the Government that they were prepared to meet any expense. The result was that for 14 days she was kept in the strong room of the hospital, which was nothing more or less than a padded prison cell. This unfortunate young girl, 23 years of age, was kept for 14 days in that place. During this time wires were going between Port Elizabeth. Pretoria, and Cape Town, and it was only at the last moment that a wire was received that the Government were making arrangements for her accommodation, but it came too late. Medical opinion was that not only could her life have been saved, but the insanity was of such a nature that it would have been only temporary. The girl was removed from the train at Worcester, and died 16 hours afterwards. What they would suggest was this, that the Government had not recognised the extreme urgency of the case. He would ask the Minister how often he had visited these institutions and seen what was taking place? What was the position to-day? If they went down to the Somerset-road Chronic Hospital they would find epileptics along with poor people whom the State had to support. Was it right that these poor people should be compelled to live amongst such sights as these. More than sympathy was needed. Surely it was a poor argument to use that they had no accommodation because their asylums were full.

The fact was the present system was far too cumbersome. There should be some ready way of ascertaining whether a patient should be sent to an asylum or not. He had ascertained that in many cases the disease was curable, and that it was detrimental to send such a patient to an asylum. If no other case was brought before the House, then the one which he had quoted should be sufficient to rouse the Government to take immediate action. People of education were able to bring these cases to the notice of the public, but what about the poor people who suffered in silence? He thought that the Government should immediately separate those who were mentally unbalanced from people suffering from other diseases. Then he thought that at certain gaols in the country special buildings might be added for the temporary accommodation of the mentally unbalanced. Then these diseases should be treated by mental experts. He urged the Government not to allow money to stand in the way, but to take immediate action. In the common interests of humanity some action should be taken, and taken immediately.

pointed out that the Minister was genuinely anxious to do something, and was making investigations at the present time. So long as these people were herded with criminals so long would the question remain a public scandal in this country. He was glad that the committee was to be appointed, because it would bring to the notice of the public things with which hon. members who took an interest in the matter were acquainted. People who wore mentally afflicted required special treatment, and if that treatment was given many lives, much money, and much misery would be saved. In conclusion ho said he would like to say to the hon. member for Prieska that the House gave more attention to cattle than human beings.

drew the attention of the Minister to certain anomalies that existed in the law at present and which could be done away with by an Act of Administration The hon. member went on to refer to summary reception orders, which he said only ordered detention for one month The anomaly he wished to refer to was this: Under the Act of 1897 the Attorney-General of the Cape Province, in his sphere, the Solicitor-General, in his sphere, and the Crown Prosecutor, in his sphere, had been created official curatores ad litem in their respective areas. The Act of Union, however, had created rather a serious anomaly. If a man was a lunatic in the Eastern Province, and the Magistrate granted a summary reception order, the papers went to the Solicitor-General, and the man could be expeditiously dealt with. The same had taken place in Griqualand West, where the papers had gone to the Crown Prosecutor, but in Cape Town, for example, the Attorney-General had had that function taken away from him, and they had to send the papers to the Minister of Justice in Pretoria. The anomaly had become more serious lately, because the office of Crown Prosecutor had been abolished, and because the Attorney-General was the official curator for Griqualand West, and not for Cape Town. The hon. member mentioned a case to bear out what he had said, and said that serious delay had been caused because the papers had to go to Pretoria. Lunatic asylums came, not under the Provinces, but under the Union. It was open for the Government, however, to assign to the Attorney-General of the Cape Province and the Attorney-Generals of the other Provinces jurisdiction in regard to acting as official curators, which jurisdiction should never have boon taken away from them. He asked the hon. Minister whether there could not be any devolution of authority in that matter. It had taken months to get an order from Pretoria with regard to the removal of a woman from the Old Somerset Hospital to Valkenberg, although the authorities at Valkenberg were quito ready to receive her, and there was room for her, but they had to wait for the order from Pretoria, and owing to the delay her condition had been rendered much more serious.

said that the Select Committee should not forget the difficulty they had in up-country places in dealing with those cases, for in those up-country places the difficulty was intensified ten times. They were caused by the fact that the local Magistrate had no power to deal with those cases immediately and on the spot. He thought that every Magistrate or Civil Commissioner should have power to deal promptly with the reception of these patients in the best possible manner, and that they should not have to wait until the order came from Pretoria, or Cape Town, or Bloemfontein, or any of those places.

said they had already spent a considerable time over this debate and he thought it would save time perhaps if the Minister stated whether he was prepared to accept this motion.

drew attention to the extremely long hours which had to be worked by the attendants at the Graham’s Town Asylum owing to the inadequate accommodation, and said he trusted that if a committee were appointed they would give attention to the internal arrangements of existing asylums.

said he had not risen sooner because he thought the subject was of so much importance that they should get any suggestions they could before they went to the committee. He sincerely hoped that they would now get beyond the period of suggestions and advice and committee reports that were not made any use of. He would like to remove accusations which had been made, not against the Ministry, but against others who were responsible. First of all, when they spoke of the disgrace of the institutions as they were now, it was perfectly true as regarded the Cape Province, but it would be unfair to say that in regard to the Transvaal, the Orange Free State, or, as far as he was aware from his information, in regard to Natal, because certainly at present they could complain that the accommodation was too small, but they had been dealt with in a more systematic manner and more thoroughly from the beginning than the asylums in the Cape Colony. Probably that might be owing to the fact that they had gained experience of how to do things by having seen how things were not done. He wished also to say that it was hard to bring this down to the present Government, when year after year in the Cape Parliament they had seen those responsible making reports as to the asylums, and the matter brought up in Parliament, and nothing done. This was also one of the legacies which he was afraid, owing to the mismanagement in the past, they could not pay all at once. As far as the Government was concerned information soon reached them from those who had taken an interest in the establishments of the Cape Province, and almost immediately after Union the Secretary of the Interior inspected the various asylums. His reports were of such a nature that they saw that they could not simply act upon them, and that something more was wanted than the kind of stop-gap work that had been going on for years before. A Commission was appointed, consisting of a gentleman who was recognised as an expert, together with a gentleman from the Department of Public Works, to assist him in regard to buildings, etc., but their reports only led the Government again to see how much greater was the evil than had been thought, and two other gentlemen were accordingly added, and further investigations made. The report on those investigations had only come to hand fully this year. Meanwhile he wished to say that the most pressing matters were attended to, though he admitted not fully attended to, because they had not the information to do it properly. In the second year of Union steps were taken to meet one great want, and that was a female ward at Valkenberg, at a cost of £13,000. Since Union up to now in the matter of necessary repairs, alterations and additions to lunatic asylums they had spent over £144,000. They had been meeting requirements and filling up gaps until they could come with something definite before Parliament. They had that information now before them, and it was perfectly right that everywhere more accommodation was needed, that they would have to extend in all the Provinces, and more particularly in the Cape Province, there would have to be drastic alterations to meet the calls of humanity upon them. He would, therefore, like before they went further to move an amendment, which he hoped the hon. member (Mr. Baxter) would be prepared to accept. He would move after “consist of” to insert “9 members,” so that they could consider enlarging the Committee, and possibly getting one or two others to give them suggestions as to the removal of lepers in one direction to make room for lunatics in another, and vice versa. The information which they had got led them to this conclusion, that both for criminal lunatics and lepers it was undesirable that they should come together, and, therefore, they would like to make provision for criminal lunatics at some other place where they could be properly dealt with. The Government also considered, on the report before it, that it was undesirable to have small lunatic asylums.

The criminal lunatics on Robben Island might be done away with and put somewhere else. Then it was necessary that they should extend on a scientific basis the existing asylums. That would have to take place at Valkenberg and Grahamstown. He believed the latter building was highly unsatisfactory, owing to bad sanitation and the drainage. Enteric was almost perpetual there. They wanted to get away from the old idea that any place was good enough for lunatics. And in regard to Fort Beaufort he would like to say that they should get away from the state of affairs where the lunatics were kept on separate blocks of land. He was glad to say that the people there were public spirited, and they were ready to assist the Government in the matter of ground and so on for the building of an asylum. At Bloemfontein it was suggested to utilise (in order to save expense) a Government building for the purpose of bringing criminal lunatics there. Also the asylum there required very large alterations, to be made a central asylum for the Free State, Griqualand West and other parts. The Government thought it was better to have five or six modern asylums in the Union than to have a lot of scattered converted barracks and other buildings being utilised as asylums. When the Government was investigating this matter they found how very much bigger it was than they had thought it to be. He could give them the assurance that all his colleagues were heartily in accord with the fact that the matter had got to be tackled at once, and tackled on a proper basis, to put a stop to the condition of affairs that had existed in the past. He thought they were dealing with this subject on general lines, and lines that he hoped would be acceptable to the House. They had good friends who wanted to help, but often they contradicted themselves in regard to the procedure when dealing with lunatics. One man wanted the lunatic dealt with at once, and the other man urged caution. He might say that there sometimes were cases of delay, but with the new machinery, he did not think they would occur.

There are always delays because of the lack of accommodation.

Yes, I know there are delays because of that. It was a fact they had not sufficient accommodation. At the present time there were nearly 200 more cases in the asylum than they had the right really to put there. Every year at least a thousand fresh cases came in. That did not mean a thousand increase; possibly, after deducting the number of deaths and discharges, there were two or three hundred new cases. They would have to provide, although perhaps not all at once, for dividing those who came in, into classes, one class being those who were considered curable, and the other incurable. Provision should, of course, be made for the temporary detention of those who were considered curable, and there should be permanent accommodation for the incurables. Those were matters which would receive careful consideration of the Committee, and he was prepared to put forward the information, which it had taken a good time to collect from the experts in the country. It was not a question of party gain or party consideration—it was a question of the common duty to humanity—(cheers)—and they should all join together and see what they could do to remedy what had almost been a scandal for some time past. He thought it would not serve any good purpose then to answer some of the questions that had been raised, hut with regard to what the hon. member for Cape Town, Castle, said, he would be very glad to give the matter careful attention. He hoped the hon. member for Gardens would accept the amendment he had named, and he trusted that the House would welcome the appointment of the committee.

said he thought the House would congratulate his right hon. friend for the manner in which he had met the representations brought forward. It was recognised by everybody that accommodation for cases of that sort was absolutely and entirely inadequate. In saying so, he did not, wish to insinuate that either side of the House had been negligent in trying to cope with that difficult question. It was the duty of the House to say that that inadequate state of affairs in providing for lunatics should be altered as quickly as possible. And what he would suggest was that the committee, at their meetings in connection with the subject, should not meet for the purpose of referring to cases of the past, but for trying to make recommendations to the House for adequately dealing with cases which were likely to occur in the future. He was exceedingly pleased that his right hon. friend had accepted the recommendation of the hon. member for Cape Town, Gardens, and he was of opinion that there would be no difficulty in the necessary money being voted.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the committee consist of seven members.

moved that it consist of nine.

The amendment was agreed to.

The amended motion was agreed to.

That Dr. De Jager. Dr. Macaulay, Messrs. Becker, Henderson, Kevter, Brain, and the mover be members of the committee.

Agreed to.

That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into and report upon the petition presented to the House on the 11th March, 1913, from J. 0. Player, styling himself Mayor, and others, Town Councillors of the borough of Vryheid, Natal praying for (1) the grant to the said borough of a sum of money as compensation for the loss of the use of the water of the stream Klein Magot, the right to which is at present reserved to the Railway Administration, and (2) the remission of the Government’s claim to the sum of £1,577, being the amount paid by the Natal Government in connection with the construction of a reservoir for the inhabitants of Vryherd, the liability for which amount was reluctantly assumed by the inhabitants of Vryheid on the establishment there of a township under Law 11 of 1881 (Natal), or for other relief; the committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers, and to consist of Messrs. Neser, Orr, Cronje, Wilcocks, Wyndham, Geldenhuys, and the mover. The hon. member said that it was unnecessary to speak at length with regard to the motion, because if he got the committee for which the motion was asking, it would have full power to go into details on the matter. It was, however, necessary to mention a few facts as to why the committee was being asked for, and for that purpose he would have to go back to the period before the war. It was formerly the custom that every penny spent for the obtaining of water should be paid by the Transvaal Government. When the war broke out, the water scheme was still unfinished. An amount of £6,500 had been paid to the contractors, and the balance unpaid in 1905 was £1,500. That territory was annexed to Natal after the war. Under the Natal law they could hardly get any assistance without taking local authority. The people approached the Natal Government and asked if they would allow local authority as they did in other towns. The Government granted the request, provided that the township should assume the liabilities of the unpaid capital of £1,577, and that the Government should retain certain water rights in that town. As they were aware, these water rights had been, until that time, the absolute property of the erf holders. But the people did not get the water. The very stream which the Government retained was that stream for which they paid, so that the conditions meant that the people paid for the stream and the Government got the water. He would, therefore, ask for a Select Committee to go into the matter thoroughly, and bring up a report to the House, so that the House could judge the case on its merits, and determine whether compensation should be paid. He thought a great injustice had been done. The people of Vryheid had no option but to accept the conditions laid down by the Government of Natal, because at that time the town was in a most insanitary state. It had been occupied by the military during the war.

seconded the motion.

said that while he sympathised with the position the inhabitants of this town found themselves in, he did not think they should have this inquiry, because he did not think it was a proper subject for inquiry. There was no question of the facts. The position was perfectly clear. When the railway was first of all constructed to Vryheid, a supply of water was provided for from another source, but it was very soon found that that supply was entirely inadequate. Then came the war, and subsequently, conditions were laid down and an agreement was signed with the Minister of Public Works, by which they undertook to repay this sum of money, and in view of the inadequacy of the previous supplies to preserve the railway supplies. His hon. friend acknowledged that by their own act they had not a leg to stand on. He was told that, as a matter of fact, the water supply was sufficient for the greater part of the year, and was sufficient to supply the Government railways and the town. It was something like 172,000 gallons per day ordinarily, except during some of the summer months there would be enough for both; and the Railway Administration, with a view to meeting the townspeople, agreed to let them have the balance. The townspeople would not have this, however, and claimed that they wanted all the water. He could not agree to the appointment of a Select Committee, and he hoped the hon. member would not press his motion.

said there was one little point which might not be quite clear to the House. The people of Vryheid asked that the railway station should be where the main street is at present. This was refused by the Transvaal Government, and the reason was that there was not sufficient water, and they wanted to take the railway a mile away so as to get water from the stream running there. The people agreed to this. The administration was prepared to give two years’ notice at the termination of the arrangements, but that it must be clearly understood that the administration reserved its rights to increase the supply for the purpose of supplying the railway without notice. He would ask the House what community were going to spend thousands of pounds on a water scheme if they were always faced with the danger of having the supply of water cut off at any time.

The motion was agreed to.

This House is of opinion that the Government should take into consideration the desirability of instituting public inquiry into the cause or causes and circumstances of the recent serious outbreak of tuberculosis among the Government herds on the Potchefstroom Government Farm, and into the general administration of the laws dealing with tuberculosis in cattle. The mover said he wished the House to understand clearly that he did not wish to put blame upon anybody or any department regarding this Potchefstroom matter until they actually knew the facts of the case, and it was for that reason that he asked for a public inquiry into it. The House would remember that he asked the Minister a question some days ago, and the answer, it seemed to him, was rather backboneless, because the Prime Minister would not give any reason for this outbreak, but simply suggested that it might be due to an animal which had reacted. The Government had not yet made a full statement, as was promised by the Minister, and cattle farmers were in a great state of uncertainty in regard to this matter. At an institution that was held up as a model to the farmers of the country a great number of valuable animals were found to be infected with tuberculosis. Cattle from the farm were sold to farmers in different parts of the Union, and the chances were that some of these animals were infected. (Ministerial cries of “No.”) Well, the fact was that some of the cattle sent to the show on the Rand had come into the number of those infected animals. He pointed out that with regard to the cattle sold immediately before the outbreak was discovered, no effort was made to follow up these animals. When they considered the position of the farm he thought the state of affairs demanded a better explanation than the one that had been furnished up to the present. He hoped the Minister would face the matter frankly, and not burke discussion. He had information that some farmers were so dissatisfied with this state of affairs that unless something was done they did not see there was any use in helping the Government to stamp out the disease. (Ministerial cries of “Nonsense.) If hon. members on the other side thought they were serving their constituents by burking an inquiry, then he was very sorry for their constituents. He also wished to draw attention to the general law relating to tuberculosis, and some of the new regulations seemed to be aimed at permanently maintaining the disease in this country. The regulations gave a man who had infected cattle the right to keep those cattle on his farm pending the withdrawal of the certificate granted him. Now, in the Cape such cattle were destroyed, and compensation was paid, or they were allowed to keep the cattle on the condition that the whole property was placed in quarantine. Such cattle were not allowed to go off that property. Under these regulations the owner had the right to keep these infected animals, and there was nothing to prevent a man shifting other cattle off his property. The Government did try to keep infected cattle from the others, but without proper supervision it was impossible for the Government to carry out these regulations. Against all the experience of all other countries the Government allowed a man to sell milk from an infected cow provided the milk was boiled. Proceeding, the hon. member said that he thought the Government was doing a disservice to the country by publishing such a regulation. Was the Government afraid to face the position? Were they going to stamp out tuberculosis in this country? If they were, they must face the position, and they must destroy tuberculous cattle and compensate the owners. The amount of reaction in the Western Province was about 3 per cent. of the cattle tested, and that testing had taken place during the last six years, while in Europe the percentage was 30 per cent. The Government had now a splendid chance of stamping out tuberculosis in this country, but they had to take the proper steps to do so. If the Government could stamp out tuberculosis in the country they would be doing a good work. In England the Government and the local authorities had taken steps to deal with that matter. The Minister of Agriculture might use the argument that the expenses connected with the destruction of tuberculous cattle could not be faced by the country at present. In the Cape a quarter of the value of the animals destroyed were compensated for by the payment of up to £15, which, however, was hopelessly insufficient. The hon. member mentioned an instance of a case where a prominent cattle farmer had, first of all, considered the £15 compensation paid for the destruction of some of his cattle inadequate, as the cattle had originally cost 60 to 70 guineas, but he had become thankful to the department for the destruction of those cattle, owing to the freedom from tuberculosis of the cattle since. If the Minister of Agriculture would face that thing squarely, he would get more sympathetic assistance that he wot of.

seconded the motion.

said that before the Minister of Agriculture replied he would like to ask him to deal in his reply with the effectiveness of the tuberculin test, as there was considerable uneasiness felt about the matter, and that the purposes of that test could be defeated very easily. They found, or had been told, that when people desired to sell or import cattle they took the tuberculin test, and that had the effect of making subsequent tuberculin tests imposed by the department nugatory or ineffective. If that were so, was it possible to get any other test, and get that security which was necessary before importing animals into this country? He asked what precautions were taken in connection with the importation of animals, because he had some personal experience and knowledge that there was different treatment allowed to different people—perhaps for a very good reason. He did not say it was not right, because he did not know the facts. In some cases animals had been sent to Standerton. In other cases animals had been kept six months at Bloemfontein. If there were to be a relaxation of this law it ought to be something that would be within the reach of the small importer.

said that he rose for the purpose of explaining that he had misunderstood the hon. member for Cape Town, Gardens, just now. He had since been informed that the hon. member referred not to that side of the House, but to the whole House.

said that, according to the evidence given before the Royal Commission that sat in England for four years, there was no single case on record where the disease had been communicated from an animal to a human being. In regard to tuberculin tests, there was great evidence to the effect that tuberculin was not reliable and never had been reliable. Mr. Stockman, who, he believed, was at one time employed in the Transvaal, in his evidence, directly stated that tuberculin was not a reliable test. Dr. Bantock gave a great deal of evidence bearing in the same direction. In July, 1910, while he (Mr. Haggar) was a patient in the Johannesburg Hospital, he was tested with tuberculin and told very seriously that he had about three months to live. (Laughter.) Only six months after that he was again tested in Natal and informed that he was in perfect health. At present he did not think he was suffering from weakness of lungs. (More laughter.) Tuberculosis was, to a very large degree, a disease of hunger and dirt. He did not think a public inquiry would do any good; rather should the inquiry be made by men who understood the work.

said he had hoped the answer previously given by him to a question on the subject would have been sufficient, and he could not see why an inquiry had become necessary. The case put forward by the hon. member was a very weak one. He had produced no evidence to show that an inquiry was needed, and had merely asked whether the Government wished to smother the truth. Was that an argument? The Government themselves had taken immediate steps to hold an inquiry, and had adopted the necessary measures to secure the safety of the district The cattle at Potchefstroom was of specially good class, and belonged to the best that they could import. As soon as the disease broke out steps were taken to find out how far it had spread amongst the animals. The cattle at Potchefstroom were submitted annually to examination, and last year, after the examination, the veterinary surgeon signed a certificate to the effect that all the animals were healthy. The disease broke out during the year following. The chief veterinary surgeon had himself inquired into the matter, as the Government were concerned to hear that there were reactions in so relatively large a percentage of cases. The present motion called on the Government to order a newinquiry, but the speaker had already, in answer to a question, pointed out that the circumstances surrounding the outbreak of the diesease had been closely inquired into. Tuberculosis amongst cattle was a disease of a very serious character. It existed in the country, but the hon. member had no right, to say that the Government was doing nothing to exterminate it. They were doing more in South Africa in the direction of fighting disease even than the people of Europe. But the veterinary surgeons here had already a lot of work on their hands, owing to the existence of the many diseases in this country. Suspected animals were systematically submitted to tests, and when these reacted vigorous steps were at once taken. The hon. member for Newlands had criticised the regulations, which laid down that when cattle reacted to the test they were to be isolated. It was quite true that such animals were allowed to live. The farmers imported cattle from England and Holland with a certificate of good health, which was given after examination in the country of origin. On arrival here they were nevertheless placed in quarantine for a month, and submitted again to the tuberculin test. If that reacted, the animals were destroyed, as laid down by the regulations under the Act. It was stipulated in the case of an imported cow in calf that, when there was a reaction, the cow had to be kept apart, so that there should be no risk of the spreading of the disease. The reason for that regulation was the fact that they could get healthy calves from diseased cows. Some of the best imported animals came originally from diseased animals. The speaker had personally bought cattle in Friesland, and had seen that a very large percentage of the cows were infected with that sickness. The calves were, however, taken away and were brought up apart. If they were going to destroy all tuberculous cattle in England and Holland, then cattle farming in those countries would be impossible. If they attempted to destroy all tuberculous cattle in England it would lead to a rebellion. It had been asserted that the sickness could be conveyed from the animal to man by means of the milk, but it was very difficult to prove that. Scientific men had not yet demonstrated it, and it was accordingly their duty to act in the matter with circumspection. If a cow was suffering from a tuberculous udder, then there was a danger, and the cattle had to be destroyed. The hon. member for Newlands had stated that all animals which reacted ought to be shot. That was a very easy thing to say, but if the hon. member went on the farms he would see what difficulties were connected with such a system. The cattle were at present, as far as possible, submitted to systematic tests. On some farms the tests reacted, and then all measures were taken to secure the safety of others in the neighbourhood. Then the hon. member for Pretoria, East, had asked whether the test was satisfactory. Well, there were difficulties connected with the tests which the speaker was not able to understand. Cattle had been imported from England and Holland which had twice sustained the test, and a certificate given that they were healthy; and yet, when they landed here, the test was found to react. He could not understand that, and neither could the experts understand it. It was said to be possible to do something to the cattle which prevented them from reacting to the test. That appeared to be true Also, when the cattle were too young or too old the test failed sometimes to react, though in general it appeared to be satisfactory. They had been asked what measures ought to be taken against the spread of the disease. The speaker had instructed the officials to help the public as much as possible. Where imported cattle had safely withstood the test, as before described, and. had afterwards, after the lapse of time, reacted, the owners were permitted to keep such cattle alive, subject to certain precautionary measures, for the purpose of breeding. The speaker concluded by saying that he was unable to see that any useful purpose would be served by the motion, and hoped it would be withdrawn, as there was no need for such an inquiry.

said he thought his hon. friend had done a great deal of good in bringing the matter before the House and the country. There was a tendency, even on the part of owners themselves, if they thought they were going to suffer pecuniary loss, to try and evade the law. He hoped that wherever the Government erred at all, they would err on the side of stringency. He thought they should be given an opportunity in this country of stamping out the disease. It was said that the prevalence was due to cattle being kept in close stables. There was a possibility of tuberculosis being spread by their travelling about the country. He referred to a case of a beast that had been bred in this country running about on the veld, which was said to have developed tuberculosis. The Government should carry out the provisions of the Diseases of Stock Act in the most stringent manner possible, even though it would seem as though they were sacrificing a large number of animals. Surely they were stretching a point when they said it should be legal to sell the milk of tuberculous cattle if it had been boiled. In no circumstances should the milk of tuberculous cattle be allowed to be sold. There was a strong consensus of opinion that there was a possibility of spreading the disease to the human species. That portion of the regulations, in his opinion, should certainly be withdrawn, even if they had to isolate the beasts. In no circumstances should they allow anybody to sell the milk, because they had got no safeguard that the milk was going to be properly boiled, and they ran the risk of spreading the disease, not only from animal to animal, but also to human beings. He hoped the hon. Minister would do all it was possible to do to cope with the disease.

expressed his alarm at the statement made by the Minister of Agriculture that the offspring of tuberculous cattle were allowed to be imported, as they had enough cattle disease already in this country, without importing any more. It was not certain whether bovine tuberculosis could be communicated to human beings, and he was not sure that they should be treated as if that theory had been established. Neither were they certain of the tuberculin test. It was the duty of the Government to watch not only over Potchefstroom, but over the whole Union. Even in the case of the test reacting it was not considered as proof that the animal suffered from tuberculosis. And yet, in spite of that fact, some cattle belonging to Mr. Roos, in the district of Bethlehem, had been destroyed because there had been reactions. Why was that done? They were not certain about the tuberculin test, and it behoved the Department to do everything in its power to prevent the spread of the disease by stopping its importation.

said that the thanks of the House were due to the hon. member for Newlands for bringing this matter forward. He had considerable experience of tuberculosis while farming in Natal. As far as South Africa was concerned, they had nothing to fear from the spread of tuberculosis if the cattle were kept in the open. There was no risk of infection under these conditions. What they had to fear was the risk of infection among cattle that were stabled or in sheds. The cattle running in the sunshine did not catch the disease from infected cattle running with them; it was those carefully looked after pedigree stock in sheds and stables that they had to fear—even this danger might be obviated if these cattle were kept in open sheds.

said, in view of what had been said, he did not want to say anything further, and, therefore, begged leave to withdraw his motion.

The motion was therefore withdrawn.