from H. J. Penny, of Cape Town, a clerk in the stores branch of the South African Railways, praying for leave to contribute certain arrears to the Pension Fund, or for other relief.

from G. C. Wakeford and 3,578 others, residents in the districts of Barkly West and Kimberley, praying for the construction of a line of railway from Kimberley to Kuruman, via Barkly West, or for other relief.

wished to move as an unopposed motion that the order set down for March 19 for the resumption of the adjourned debate on the motion on the contract for the part payment of wages of natives recruited in the Mozambique Territory be discharged.

objected.

moved that the order for the resumption of the adjourned debate, set down for March 19, on the motion for the introduction of a General Pass and Squatters Bill, be discharged, and set down for April 2.

objected, but subsequently withdrew his objection.

objected to the motion being put.

Report of Provincial Auditor, Orange Free State, on accounts for year ending 31st March, 1912.

Referred to Select Committee on Public Accounts.

Lands purchased by Department of Lands since 1st April, 1912. Government Notice No. 372 of 1913, having reference to regulations for the Vyfhoek Settlement, Potchefstroom.

Regulation made under section 9 of the Transvaal Police Act, 1908.

Whether the Government intends introducing this session legislation to give effect to the recommendation of the Transvaal Leasehold Townships Commission?

The answer is in the negative.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) Whether it is a fact that the Public Service Commission declines to concern itself with the interpretation of regulations framed prior to the date of its appointment, and, if so, is not its power of control considerably reduced, seeing that most of the Union conditions of service were announced prior to such appointment; (2) whether he will cause regulations to be issued showing to what extent the’ Public Service Commission may be regarded as a court of appeal; and (3) whether the size of the Public Service Commission is proving sufficient to cope with the duties allotted to that body, and, if not, whether he will take steps towards an early adjustment?

(1) As the Public Service Act covers the entire Service, regulations will have to be framed under it, superseding and consolidating all existing regulations. The mass of regulations which have to be dealt with in this way is, however, very large, and the Commission has not found it possible to make recommendations at once as to the new regulations it is necessary to frame in substitution of the old regulations. They are, however, proceeding with their examination of existing regulations, and it is hoped to complete the work within a reasonable time. (2) The functions of the Commission in regard to discipline in the Service and the disciplinary cases with which they have to deal, are clearly laid down in the Act, and there is no reason to introduce any alteration into the Act which was very carefully considered by the Government, a Select Committee, and by Parliament before it was passed. (3) In the opinion of the Government, the Commission is quite large enough for the purpose, and when the Public Service is running smoothly under the new conditions, it is questionable whether there will be sufficient work for three Commissioners. At present the pressure on their time is undoubtedly great; but that is due to the whole system having to be harmonised under the new Act.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether under simultaneous dipping every farmer is bound to dip whether or not his sheep have had scab during the past twelve months; (2) whether exemption from dipping is at the option of, and dependent upon, the favour of the inspector and not upon the fact that the flock was free of scab during the previous twelve months; (3) whether he is aware that sheep farmers who have had no scab among their flocks during the past five years have been ordered to dip; and (4) who are the persons entrusted with carrying out simultaneous dipping in the districts of Bloemfontein, Boshof, Jacobsdal, and Fauresmith?

(1) Owners of sheep which have been free from scab for a period of twelve months or more are exempted from the simultaneous dipping order. (2) Provided the inspector is satisfied the sheep have been free from scab for a period of 12 months, and has no reason to believe the sheep have recently been liable to infection, the inspector must exempt them from dipping. (3) The answer to this is in the negative. (4) The following officers are entrusted with the carrying out of simultaneous dipping in the districts named, viz.: Bloemfontein: Local sheep inspectors, E. W. Gardiner, P. S. J. Fouche, T. N. Niland, A. E. Butler, P. Kelly. Boshof: Local sheep inspectors, A. W. Benzies, G. P. du Plessis, D. S. Fourie, P. F. Dusing. Jacobsdal: Local sheep inspector, C. Grobbelaar. No period has yet been arranged for dipping in this area. Fauresmith: Local sheep inspectors, C. S. Biggs, H. C. du Preez, H. R. Biggs, L. du Plessis. Note. —In addition to the sheep inspectors, a number of supervisors have been temporarily appointed for each area to assist in the proper carrying out of the dipping of the stock.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether his attention has been directed to the statement on page 59 of the report on the Department of Agriculture for the period ending December 31, 1911, to the effect that the Bradford Anthrax Investigation Bureau has called attention to the discovery of anthrax spores in bales of blood-stained South African mohair and wool, a circumstance which the report states will prejudice buyers of South African mohair and lower the market price to a considerable degree; if so, (2) what steps have been taken to prevent a recurrence of a like nature in the future; and (3) whether, if nothing has as yet been done, the Government will without delay and with a view to preventing the spread of the disease, acquaint farmers with its nature, its dangers, and the best method of diagnosing it?

(1) Yes. (2) The attention of the public was directed to the report of the Bradford Anthrax Investigation Bureau in an editorial which appears in the “Union Agricultural Journal” for March, 1912, in which stress was laid on the necessity of complying with the recommendations of the Board, by arranging for the separate baling and distinctive marking of any blood-stained wool or mohair, and warning farmers that unless this was done the British Government may take steps for the protection of wool workers to impose restrictions on South African imports, which may have a detrimental effect on the wool and mohair trade of South Africa. It rests with the farmers themselves to take steps to prevent a recurrence of similar accidents, as it is beyond the power of the department to impose any restrictions which are calculated to prevent them. (3) Repeated warnings have been given to the public by the department. The pamphlet containing the Stock Diseases Regulations gives a description of the disease.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether it is a fact that two firemen signed on for the tug Sir Charles Elliott in December last at a wage of 7s. a day and 1s. overtime with hours from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.; (2) whether since January 20, 1913, all overtime has been stopped though the hours of work on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays are from 3 a.m. to 6.30 p.m. and sometimes from 3 a.m. to 12 midnight and even later, and during the rest of the week from 4 a.m. to 6.30 p.m.; and (3) whether the Government will take into consideration the advisability of restoring for all firemen on the tugs the conditions which existed when they signed on?

(1) The answer is in the affirmative. (2) Payment of certain overtime was delayed pending adjustment of wages of these men under the new regulations. The amended scale of pay and conditions is now decided on, and overtime payments have been made, dating back to the time they were suspended. (3) The reply is in the negative. On the whole the new conditions are more favourable to the men than those which existed when they signed on.

asked the Minister of Justice whether, with the view to making proper provision for the work of the Appeal Court of South Africa, the Government will submit proposals during the present session for the erection of suitable buildings in Bloemfontein?

on behalf of the Minister of Justice, replied: The Appeal Court is housed in the Legislative Buildings at Bloemfontein. It is not proposed to submit proposals during the present session of Parliament for the erection of other buildings for the purpose of housing that division.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What was the number of applications on the books of the Railways and Harbours Department on 1st March, 1913, from Europeans for situations such as labourers, skilled labourers, and other occupations, respectively; (2) how many of these applicants have since been engaged; and (3) how many applications have been received since 1st March, 1913?

(1) Number of applications by Europeans for employment as recorded in administration’s books at 1st March, 1913:

(2) 425 of these applicants have since been engaged, viz.:

(3) 394 applications have been received since 1st March, 1913, viz.:

Note.—The above figures do not include numerous verbal applications made by white labourers, who are taken on as required by the administration, but whose applications are not recorded if immediate employment cannot be found for them.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether he is aware (a) that on the Vereeniging Estates, the artisans are compelled to work 53½ hours a week and the coal miners 69 hours a week; (b) that a round robin signed by 85 of the men concerned asking for these hours to be reduced to 50 and 54respectively, was presented to the management; (c) that as a reply to this round robin the management discharged forthwith two miners, seven carpenters, thirteen bricklayers, and one tile worksman; (2) whether, if he has no information, he will cause inquiry to be made as to the facts of this dispute; (3) whether his inspectors are aware that in the mines owned by this company very few white men are employed underground to superintend the work of large numbers of Kafirs; and (4) what special steps have been taken to see that under such circumstances the regulations relating to blasting are scrupulously observed?

I must ask the hon. member to let this question stand over.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) If, during the late railway excursion season, extra stewards were engaged for the catering service by the department; and, if so, how many; (2) how many of the men so engaged were induced to leave their then existing employment in the various steamships calling at the ports of the Union; and what was the nature of the inducement offered; (3) how many of these men are married men; and how many are British subjects; (4) how many stewards have been discharged from the catering service since the engagement of these extra hands, showing the number of newly engaged men, and men employed previous to date of engagement of the new men, respectively; (5) how many of the older employees so discharged are British subjects, and how many are married; and (6) what are the rates of pay of the newly engaged men and the older employees who were discharged, respectively?

(1) Fifty-six extra stewards engaged for excursion season. (2) Only men engaged were those applying for employment, and no inducements to leave other situations were offered beyond rates of pay applicable to this grade. (3) Fourteen of these men were married; 41 were British subjects. (4) Sixteen men have been discharged since the extra hands were engaged. Seven of these were in service before the excursion season, and nine of them were new hands. (5) The older hands discharged were all British subjects, and three of them were married. (6) Extra men engaged received same rate of pay as men then in service, namely, 10s. per diem for chief stewards and 5s. per diem for stewards, with partial food.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government intends introducing any legislation this session for the purpose of obtaining suitable land for phthisis sufferers, and, if not, when will it do so?

No definite answer can be given on this head until the report of the Small Holdings Commission is received, when the whole question will receive the careful consideration of the Government.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) How many applications for the allotment of holdings have been received under Chapter III. of the Land Settlement Act, 1912; and (2) whether any holdings have as yet been allotted or refused to such applicants, and, if so, to whom?

(1) and (2) One hundred and nineteen applications, representing one hundred and forty-six individuals, have been received under Chapter III. of the Land Settlement Act, 1912, in respect of ten holdings. The applications in respect of seven holdings have been dealt with by the Land Board, and those in respect of the remaining three will be considered by the Board at an early date. A return, giving the names of the holdings and of the successful and non-successful applicants, will be laid on the Table for the information of the hon. member.

The return was laid on the Table.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that the crops of Mr. W. P. Prinsloo, of Bospoort, district Pretoria, were recently damaged by fire caused by a passing locomotive; and, if so, (2) what steps he intends to take to prevent similar damage being caused in the future?

(1) No; nor is the Administration aware of such a fire having recently taken place. It is understood, however, that a veld fire occurred on the farm in question on 17th June, 1912, but no complaint or claim was lodged with the Administration, and, so far as is known, no crops were destroyed. (2) Everything possible is done to guard against fires by sparks from passing locomotives, the precautions taken in this direction being as indicated in answer to a question asked in the House by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth, Central, on the 4th inst.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) What is the number of the clerical and medical staff engaged in dealing with miners’ phthisis compensation applications, and what are the duties, salaries, and daily working hours of each individual; (2) what is the average number of hours’ overtime per week worked by such clerical staff; (3) is overtime paid for in addition to ordinary pay, and, if not, why not; (4) if overtime is paid, what is the total amount so expended since the inception of the Board under the Miners’ Phthisis Allowances Act, 1911, and the Miners’ Phthisis Act, 1912, respectively; and (5) what is the total amount expended in salaries for the two Boards and the clerical staffs to date?

The number of clerical staff engaged in dealing with miners’ phthisis compensation applications is 10, and the number of medical staff dealing with the same is 14. The duties and salaries of the clerical staff are follows: One secretary, £50 per month; one accountant, £31 13s. 4d. per month; one senior clerk, £30 per month; one assistant accountant, £22 10s. per month; two typists, £45 per month; one record clerk, £20 per month; one filing and enquiry clerk, £12 10s. per month; one office boy, £4 per month; one temporary clerk, £9 15s. per month; total, £225 8s. 4d. per month. There are no data available for the medical staff. A considerable time beyond the usual official office hours, i.e., 9 to 4.30, has been worked by the whole staff, but no record has been kept. It is impossible to answer this part of the question, as no record is kept of the overtime worked by the clerical staff. Officers in the Public Service are not paid for work done beyond the official hours. In one case an extra allowance of £11 17s. 6d. was paid to the accountant during the period of the Administration of the 1911 Act, from the 1st June, 1911, to the 31st July, 1912, for special services. The total amount expended in salaries for the two Boards and the clerical staffs to the 28th February, 1913, was £4,036.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: Whether he is aware that as the result of a faction fight in the Mount Frere district a number of cattle have been driven out of that district which is an infected area for East Coast fever into the Matatiele district which is a clean one, and what steps he intends to take in this matter?

In consequence of a faction fight 200-250 head of cattle were removed by the Bacas Tribe from the district of Mount Frere into Madonela’s Location, district of Matatiele, where they are at present guarded by Cape Mounted Riflemen. There is reason to believe the cattle did not come from infected kraals, and provided no disease occurs amongst them, the Resident Magistrate, Mount Frere, has been requested to arrange for the cattle to be returned to Mount Frere immediately the country is sufficiently pacified. At the present moment continuous rains and full rivers are preventing all movements of cattle.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether, in view of the grievous injustice done to certain localities by being charged an exorbitant railway tariff, he intends to make provision this year for taking over all private railways within the Union?

The answer to this question is in the negative.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware (a) that, as all the railway lines from the southern ports converge at Springfontein, the traffic at that station exceeds the traffic of any other station; (b) that the station buildings are unsuitable on account of want of accommodation; (c) that the platform is too narrow for the travelling public; and (d) that all the traffic lies to the west of the line, whereas the station buildings are to the east of the line, and that in consequence thereof accidents with loss of life occur; and (2) whether he does not consider that the station buildings with improved facilities should be on the west of the line?

(1) (a) The honourable member for Edenburg appears to be under a misapprehension as to the extent of the traffic dealt with at Springfontein as there are numerous stations at which the traffic is, in all respects, considerably heavier. (b) The buildings are in keeping with the requirements of the station, and the passenger facilities provided are considered to be sufficient to meet all reasonable demands. Enquiries are being made as to adequacy, or otherwise, of the goods shed accommodation. (c) Certain alterations are now in progress at Springfontein which include the widening and lengthening of the station platforms. (d) The goods accommodation is on the west side of the station and the overhead bridge affords ample protection to passengers crossing to the station. The recent accident was not due to the position of the station buildings. (2) It is considered by the Administration that, perhaps with the exception of the goods shed accommodation, in respect of which enquiries are being made, as already indicated, proper and adequate facilities have been provided at Springfontein for coping with the traffic dealt with at that station.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the Railway Administration has recently opened bars at the Fordsburg and Braamfontein stations in Johannesburg; (2) whether he will make inquiry as to such facilities being really required by the travelling public; and (3) whether, if he is not satisfied that they are so required, he will bring the matter before the Railway Board with a view to the bars being closed?

(1) As regards Fordsburg, the reply is in the affirmative. A bar has not been opened at Braamfontein, nor is the question under consideration at present. (2) and (3) Inquiries have already been made as to the necessity of providing facilities for obtaining refreshments at Fordsburg station, as a result of which it was deemed desirable, for convenience of the public, to open a bar at that place.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs why leave of absence was refused to the Johannesburg telephone operators between the dates May 19, 1912, and October 28, 1912, and whether, if such hardship was justifiable, the leave of absence subsequently granted was due to an increase of staff, or a rearrangement of duties?

Twenty-five operators in the Johannesburg exchange obtained leave during the period in question. The local responsible officer was not able to recommend the release of a larger number. The majority of the operators were granted full leave during the year. The remainder were granted short leave during the year, and the balance is being added to the leave due to them this year. The growth of the work has necessitated the employment of additional staff and certain rearrangements of duties. Short sick absences were abnormally frequent during last year.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether it is a fact that natives are employed by his department in the repairs and maintenance of the telegraph lines within the Germiston post office area; (2) whether these natives perform these duties entirely without white supervision; and, if so, (3) whether he will undertake to have this work performed by white youths in future with a view to giving them a start in the electrical trade?

(1) The reply is in the affirmative. (2) and (3) The native labour referred to is performed under white supervision.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether (1) Numerous Public Service Commission forms, No. 5 (records of service), recently issued to members of the Postal Department, have been returned unsigned because of errors; (2) the records shown on these forms did not influence the late Reorganisation Committee in deciding certain appointments; and (3) such papers have not created considerable unrest amongst members of the department?

(1) Public Service Commission forms, No. 5, are being issued to the staff for completion. Certain of them have been returned unsigned pending the correction of minor clerical errors. (2) The answer is in the negative. (3) There has been no cause for any unrest in the matter.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware of the following circumstances which obtained on the evening of Friday, the 28th February last: (a) About 40 passengers, holding first-class tickets from Cape Town to stations on the New Cape Central-Railway, were crowded into second-class carriages temporarily labelled first class, in spite of the fact that most of these passengers having reserved seats the previous day; (b) that from seven to eight passengers were put into a compartment; (c) that the carriages were in an unclean condition; and (2) whether, in view of the increasing value to the South African Railway Administration of the through passenger traffic to and from New Cape Central Railway stations, he will give an assurance that steps will be taken to obviate any similar occurrence in the future?

(1) (a) Owing to acute shortage of first-class stock at Cape Town on Friday, 28th February, a number of first-class passengers had to be accommodated in second-class coaches. (b) Accommodation was duly reserved—though partly in second-class coaches—on a special train for all the passengers who booked their seats beforehand, but unfortunately a large number of passengers (over 40) turned up for the train without booking, and many of them seated themselves where they could find accommodation, with the result that when the train left Cape Town certain of the compartments had more than their usual complement of passengers. The train staff, however, immediately took steps to re-arrange the seating, and by the time the train reached Wellington all the passengers were comfortably accommodated. The special train conveyed 220 through passengers for the New Cape Central Line. But for the large number of passengers who boarded the train without booking their seats, there would have been ample accommodation, although first-class compartments would not have been available for all the passengers holding first-class tickets, (c) The coaches were all thoroughly cleaned before leaving Cape Town. (2) The Administration is fully alive to the importance of making adequate provision for the comfort of the travelling public, but, despite the extent to which the coaching stock has been augmented since Union, the increase in passenger traffic has been such that the stock available at periods of pressure is still unequal to the demand. In all, 490 passengers, the majority of them through passengers, had to be accommodated by the up-country trains on the evening of the 28th ult. One hundred and fifty-seven first and second class saloons and 20 suburban coaches were on order at the 1st January last. Twenty of these vehicles have recently been placed in service. Work on a number more is well in hand, and several of them will shortly be completed and placed in traffic. As these saloons are placed in service, they should somewhat relieve the pressure which is at present felt at excursion times in adequately providing for passenger traffic.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) How many members of the Cape Town Police asked for leave, and what amount of leave, during the past twelve months; and (2) how many members of the police obtained leave during the same period, and what was the amount of leave granted to them?

Leave of absence for period March 1, 1912, to February 28, 1913: (1) Number of applications received, 1,183 occasional leave; amount of leave applied for, 1,987 days; 129 ordinary vacation leave, 5,986 days. (2) Number of men granted leave, 1,181 occasional; amount of leave granted, 1,985 days; 113 ordinary vacation, 4,888 days.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether the recent re-organisation in the Postal Department, particularly with reference to the telephone branch, since the 1912-1913 Appropriation Act was passed, was duly authorised, and whether such reorganisation is economically suitable to the Union of South Africa, with its comparatively small number of telephones?

The answer to the first portion of the question is in the affirmative. As to the telephone branch, the revenue derived therefrom has increased 86 per cent. since Union. The reorganisation adopted is on lines which should ensure economy in working, and at the same time provide for increased services and facilities which are being looked for by the public in all parts of the Union.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the tariff of allowances payable to witnesses, published by the Department of Justice in the “Union Gazette” on the 11th October, 1912, where under (a) expert witnesses received £1 1s. a day, (b) European witnesses not falling under (a) get 8s. or 10s. a day according to distance, (c) coloured persons or native chiefs not falling under (a) or (d) receive 2s. 6d. or 4s. a day according to distance, and (d) aboriginal natives not coming under (a) get 1s. 6d. or 2s. a day according to distance; and (2) whether the Government is prepared to take into consideration the advisability of issuing a new tariff where under all civilised persons and all uncivilised persons respectively would be treated alike, irrespective of colour?

As the considerations put forward by the hon. member appear to have been duly considered by my predecessor in framing the tariff referred to, I do not propose amending the same in the direction indicated at the present juncture.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) If for a time telephone renters in Johannesburg who were on the “measured service rate” were being debited with calls as soon as connection was made, irrespective of whether the calls were effective or not; and why renters received assurances, previously, that non-effective calls were never debited; and (2) whether he proposes to refund the over-charges thus made?

There are three classes of ineffective telephone calls, due: (1) to line and apparatus faults; (2) to the subscriber wanted being engaged with another person. No charge is made to the public for these calls. The third class is in the case of the subscriber wanted not attending to the call when the caller is put through and the connection made. This class of call gives much additional work to the operators, and as the Post Office has completed the switching service, it is reasonable that payment therefor should be made. It is proposed to revert to the practice recently introduced in this respect. It is not practicable to make refunds. Statistics show that the average debit to each subscriber in this connection would amount to about 7d per annum.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours if the payment of railway employees monthly, instead of weekly, will be considered by the Select Committee on Railways and Harbours when the regulations are under consideration?

No; unless the Select Committee so decides. The instruction to the committee, as embodied in the resolution adopted by the House on the 6th ultimo, was: “To inquire into and report upon all alleged grievances under the new Railways and Harbours Service Regulations, the committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers.” Monthly or weekly payments, not having been dealt with in the new service regulations, do not come within the scope of this instruction.

asked the Minister of Justice whether, in view of the increase in the number of actions for divorce, the time has not arrived for creating the office of a “King’s Proctor”?

The only Province of the Union in which functions somewhat analogous to those exercised by the King’s Proctor in England have been assigned to the Attorney-General, is Natal. When the consolidated Criminal Procedure Code of the Union is submitted to Parliament the question of extending the Natal practice to the Union will be carefully considered.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether it is the custom of the Postal Department to transfer officers who relieve those absent on account of sickness or leave for four months or longer periods, thereby evading the payment of relief expenses; and (2) whether such procedure is in accordance with the law?

(1) In every case where an officer’s services are required at a point for more than four months a transfer is arranged. (2) This practice is in accordance with regulation. No law is involved in the matter.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether audits are made in connection with Post Office stores and equipment; and (2) whether the audits included the checking of the material utilised on construction and maintenance works, and the payments made in connection with labour and transport?

(1) Yes. All Post Office stores and equipment are regularly audited. (2) No material is issued except under proper requisition. The material actually used on works is shown on the records, and an inspector is responsible for verifying the latter. The completion report of each work is again subject to independent audit by a higher authority. Any excess material is returned to store under proper check. Payments for labour are made on certified paysheets, submitted by foremen of works, and come under audit in usual course. Payment for transport is usually made in connection with tenders publicly called for, and the vouchers submitted for the performance of the work and certified by the officer in charge. Subsequently a head office audit takes place. Payments for casual transport are subject to similar certification and audit.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether he will explain why abnormal delays exist on the Transvaal telephone trunk lines, whereby serious loss of revenue and public inconvenience are caused?

Statistics show that the percentage of calls over the Transvaal trunk lines which are not completed within a reasonable time is very small indeed. The lines are worked to the greatest advantage, and no serious loss to the revenue results from the service. Separate trunk lines cannot, for economical reasons, be supplied for independent use between all places. Every endeavour is made to minimise public inconvenience, and additional trunk lines are constructed from time to time as circumstances warrant. Any unusual delay is usually traceable to extreme pressure of traffic during certain hours of the morning and afternoon, when the majority of subscribers desire to utilise the lines.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) What number of telephone junction lines exist between the various Witwatersrand exchanges; (2) whether such numbers are justified by statistical records; and (3) whether additional lines have not recently been constructed along the reef at considerable expense?

(1) There are 175 junction lines connecting the various telephone exchanges in the Witwatersrand area. (2) Yes; in fact more connections are required over some sections. These are being provided. (3) Additional lines have recently been constructed along the Reef to meet the increased requirements of the public traffic.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) What is the amount of the Government subsidy towards the Post Office agency at Foucheesrust, district of Hoopstad, Orange Free State; (2) whether the post between Foucheesrust and Klippan is conveyed on horseback, or if not, how it is conveyed; and (3) how many times a week it is conveyed?

(1) The agency work is trifling and is performed gratuitously. The agent receives an allowance of £12 per annum for conveying the mails. (2) The post between Foucheesrust and Klippan is conveyed on horseback. (3) Once a week each way.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the report of the inquiry into the death of driver White and fireman Loubser at Bot River has been issued; and, if so, whether he will lay a copy upon the Table of the House?

A magisterial inquiry was held in connection with this unfortunate accident, and the verdict arrived at that inquiry was: “That the deaths of John Andrew White and Francois Loubser were due to shock, resulting from injuries sustained while in the performance of their duty, through the derailment and precipitation to the bottom of a culvert of a certain railway engine and trucks; the evidence disclosing that the engine and railway track were not in an unfit state for traffic purposes at the time.”

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) If it is a fact that since Union, gaolers who had at their own expense cultivated little garden lots prior to Union, have had to give them up; (2) if it is a fact that, since Union, gaolers who prior to Union were allowed to keep their children with them in their quarters, have been forbidden to keep in their quarters sons over 16 and daughters over 18; (3) if it a fact that the men, to whom (1) and (2) apply, are in many instances in receipt of salaries ranging from £125 to £150 per annum, and have had additional clerical work added to their duties since Union; and (4) whether the Government is prepared to consider the advisability of reverting to pre-Union conditions in the above respect, or, alternatively, of allowing the persons concerned to leave the service without loss of the amounts contributed by them to the pension fund?

said he was requested by the Minister of Justice to say that as notice of this question was only given yesterday, there had not been sufficient time to obtain the desired information. A reply would, however, be given as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that, owing to damage done by the recent floods to bridges upon the North Coast line in Natal, the population of Zululand, and especially the employees upon estates beyond Chaka’s Kraal Station, are in serious distress owing to the delay in conveyance of food supplies; and (2) whether he will endeavour to remove the difficulty by means of road transport between the broken ends of the rails, either by obtaining the co-operation of such Public Works Department local transport as may be available, or by the engagement of private wagons, in order to prevent the actual starvation which is threatened?

(1) The Administration is aware of the seriousness of position, but no complaints have, so far, been made in regard to shortage of food supplies. (2) Passengers, foodstuffs, and light goods are being conveyed across the rivers on the North Coast line by experienced boatmen, and the tonnage of foodstuffs so handled will be gradually increased, if conditions remain favourable, until temporary bridges are erected. The conveyance of foodstuffs could not be commenced until the 14th inst., on which date 6.436 lb. were forwarded to stations beyond the Tugela. Difficulties have been intensified by continued swollen condition of rivers, which has made transport by boat troublesome and slow. Weather has now moderated, and if improvement continues Administration hopes to be able to cope with all necessary food supplies and other traffic of an urgent nature. Should it be found, however, that sufficient quantities of foodstuffs cannot be forwarded under present arrangements, consideration will at once be given to the question of road transport, if the roads and rivers will admit of this being arranged.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention has been called to a statement that one of two native police boys who were arrested near the Cinderella Mine, Boksburg, for being in possession of brandy, was taken to the compound manager’s office and beaten after arrest; (2) whether these facts were given in evidence before the Magistrate who tried the case; and, if so, (3) whether he intends to take steps to punish the persons responsible?

said that the information would be supplied in a few days.

That to-day the House suspend business at six o’clock p.m. and resume at eight o’clock p.m., Government business to have precedence at eight o’clock p.m., subject to the following: If at five minutes to six o’clock p.m., the business be not sooner disposed of, Mr. Speaker will adjourn the debate on the business then under discussion, or the Chairman will report progress, and ask leave to sit again, as the case may be, and dilatory motions, such as motions for adjournment will lapse without question put. If a debate arises as to the day for which such interrupted business shall be put down, Mr. Speaker shall call for the “Ayes” and “Noes”; when, if Mr. Speaker is unable to determine whether the “Ayes” or “Noes” have it, he shall order the interrupted business to be put down for the next day on which the House shall sit. Provided that if, at five minutes to six o’clock p.m., Government business is under consideration, no interruption shall take place.

The motion was agreed to.

That the petition from W. Greenwood, formerly in the Cape Convict Station, praying for condonation of a certain break in his late service, with a view to readjustment of his pension, or for other relief, presented to the House on January 30, 1912, be laid upon the Table, and, if agreed to, that the petition be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

The motion was agreed to.

stated that the petition was on the table.

moved for a return showing the amount of land purchased under Loan Vote E, Act 24 of 1912, for land settlement and irrigation purposes, and indicating the cost of each purchase and the price paid per morgen.

pointed out that though he had repeatedly asked for certain returns, these had not been laid on the Table. A week ago he asked again, but the Minister gave no reply.

said the return was on the Table.

The motion was agreed to.

That the petition from C. R. Hudson, formerly a member of the 3rd Cape Mounted Yeomanry Regiment, who in 1907, when an inmate of the Bloemfontein Lunatic Asylum, refused his share of certain “loot moneys ” which were then being paid to the officers and men of the Yeomanry Regiment, praying for consideration and relief, presented to the House on March 4, 1913, be referred to the Government for consideration.

The motion was agreed to.

That in the opinion of this House the Government should, in view of the recent prolonged drought, take into consideration the advisability of making a commencement without delay with the systematic conservation of water throughout the Union. The mover said he need not ask the House to bear with him while he dealt with this important question of water conservation. They had passed through a severe drought, but it was no more severe than some in the past, and unless they made some big move with the conservation of water they would never be able to cope with these droughts. They could alleviate the conditions that prevailed by using their brains and their common sense, and conserving the water that was allowed to run to waste in time of flood He thought it was up to the Government of the country and the people of the country to take some action in the matter. He wanted the country to tackle this big question seriously. He did not want to indict the Union Government or the Minister in charge of the department or anybody else. The question was a big one. Ministers might come—(Opposition laughter) — and Ministers might go—(renewed laughter)— but this question would go on forever. (General laughter.) What was the cause of the droughts? Hon. members would find, if they looked at Table Mountain, erosion taking place after every rain. Then go a little further afield, and they would find in the Karoo places where at one time lakes existed, the water had gradually worked its way through until the whole place was dry. Then go to Pretoria, and they would find there the same conditions; in fact, Pretoria was built in the bed of an old lake. They would find on the one side of Pretoria pebbly beach and on the other sandy beach. These indications stretched along the whole of the Magaliesberg range, and showed that in ancient times there existed lakes in this country for a distance of about 300 miles. Then go further. He had travelled in British East Africa, and at Ginger had watched the head waters of the Nile overflowing over the Rippen Falls with a considerable fall in a series of rapids below, and it was perfectly conceivable that in time erosion would excavate a passage between the lake and the lower level, and that in time there would be one huge dry plain instead of Lake Victoria Nyanza. The same thing was taking place in other countries. If one looked at what was happening, say, in Switzerland—for instance, at Geneva—they found the same conditions there. Now undoubtedly this had happened in South Africa, and what was once lake country was to-day dry desert parts. Now what he wanted to emphasise was that at one time, whereas by the position of these lakes there were humid conditions which brought about regular rainfalls, those conditions were to-day gone. Was there a remedy? And what was it? There was a remedy if the people of this country would only put their backs into it, restore some of the old conditions and stop up some of the gaps. He had seen the Orange River in flood, and he maintained that by the conservation of its flood water it could again bring back the former conditions. At the Wilge River the Premier Diamond Mining Company had constructed a weir which conserved eleven hundred million gallons of water, yet at the time that weir was built only about 600,000 gallons were in the river for twenty-four hours. Notwithstanding that, after having conserved this water, the Premier Diamond Mining Company had pumped, three years after the weir had been constructed, about 3,000,000 gallons per day, and were pumping now 4,000,000 gallons per day. That showed they could not always accept the ideas of engineers as to the feasibility of water schemes, for engineers sometimes took pessimistic views. It was no good having hydrographic surveys and working out things mathematically, for they had at times abnormal conditions, such as floods, which gave all the water that was wanted. The Government should take in hand the construction of large water conservation works, and until that was done it was useless to talk about putting people on the land. Unless the question was tackled in a strong way, they would never make progress. With the conservation of water came also the question of utilising the power that was available from this source. For instance, in the Orange River, on the falls below Kakamas, electric installation there could transmit energy up that river for all purposes, and the farmers of this country would more and more get into the way of using machinery in the development of the land, and when they had cheap power to do this, they would compete with people in the rest of the world. Then, again, with regard to putting the people on the land, it was found in this country that wherever water was available, or easily taken out, the people adjacent to that were as thick as bees. There was no necessity for talking about putting people on the land; they would come on the land if only water was there. In conclusion, the hon. members said the object was an important one, and he hoped it would not be dragged in as a party question, because he thought it was a question in which all should work together for the general good of the country.

in supporting the motion, said it was a very modest one. The hon. member had made an unanswerable case, but at the same time he feared to criticise the responsible Minister. There was an opportunity for Government to do something, even on a small scale. Yesterday the Minister of Finance was very lavish, and he hoped he would not be mean to-day. It rested with the mover and his friends on the Ministerial benches to get something done by the Government. The Prime Minister was a farmer, and here was an opportunity for him to do something. If the Prime Minister would do as suggested it would be an effective answer to those people who said that he was doing nothing, and it would be an easy answer too.

said he was perfectly astounded at the two speeches which had just been delivered. (Laughter.) One would imagine that this was a new question, and that nothing was ever done in regard to it. Would his hon. friend (Mr. Quinn) read the Auditor-General’s report? No, it would be too much trouble. It was far easier to make a speech than to acquaint one’s self with what was going on in the country. He (Mr. Merriman) was not one of those who urged the Government to do too much in this matter. If the Prime Minister would take the advice of a humble follower he would be slow in getting Government to do these things. His hon. friend (Mr. Quinn) must have been living with his eyes shut in the Transvaal, where there had been some notable irrigation schemes, such as the White River and others equally disastrous. Wherever Government went in directly for irrigation schemes it made a mess of it. In the Cape they had the Rooiberg Dam and the Thebus scheme. Did his hon. friend know that there had been more irrigation in the Cape than in the rest of South Africa put together? For the last six years—ever since depression cast its beneficent sway over the country by making people work— there had been immense progress in irrigation. Let the hon. member go along the Breede River and see what was being done by private individuals. Does the hon. member know of the Sunday’s River, where from one end of it to the other, and that was about 70 miles, irrigation works are in existence, all of which have been carried through by private enterprise, and that there is a growing community up there which is sufficiently attractive to have secured the attention of the hon. member for Uitenhage? (Laughter.) But the hon. member makes no mention of this and other irrigation schemes which are being successfully worked by private individuals, but comes here and says we must in a small way make a start. If they looked through the Western and Eastern Provinces, they would find any number of irrigation schemes being successfully worked. The Dutch Reformed Church had also established irrigation works at Kakamas. No great scheme should be undertaken unless there was a large population at hand to work it. It was all right in Egypt, where they had a teeming population, and could put the people on the land to work it. All that the Government should be expected to do in this country is to give information to private individuals, and they have secured an expert of the highest rank, and to advance money to those people who wished to take it up. He hoped that in time the methods adopted latterly at the Cape would spread to the Transvaal, where they appeared to have been asleep for years past. In the Transvaal they were so accustomed to take riches from the ground in a large way that there was room for the exercise of individual effort. He would advise the Government to look after their own business—(a Voice: They haven’t any)—or, as in the past, they would make a mess of it.

in seconding the motion, said the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Quinn) had accused the Government of having done nothing; he seemed to lose sight of the fact that there had been a number of other Governments before the present one, and it was not fair to saddle this Government with the blame which previous Administrations should be saddled with. (Hear, hear.) A short while ago he (Mr. Grobler) had asked a question as to the amount of money spent on irrigation works, and from the reply it appeared that one-third of the amount had been spent on surveys. This seemed to be unduly high. It had been remarked that farmers themselves should do something, and he quite agreed with this view; at the same time, however, the right hon. member for Victoria West should bear in mind that it was impossible for individuals to tackle certain very big works. The Irrigation Act of last year was still a little novel to them, and therefore unknown, but the public ought to make good use of its provisions. Still, there were some farms where private persons could not be expected to set up irrigation works. A good deal could, for instance, be done on the Crocodile River, in the Pretoria district, where a dam could be built and at least a hundred thousand morgen could be irrigated; surely a work like that could not be tackled by private individuals. The speaker knew of no Government irrigation scheme which had proved to be a failure. The Wit River scheme, mentioned by the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) was a settlement scheme, and not an irrigation scheme. One of the finest works he had seen of late was that at Kopjes, in the Free State, where a dam had been built at a cost of £88,000. The effect of that dam had been that the ground had gone up tremendously in value. Mr. Grobler proceeded to quote a case in Australia where the Government had spent a large amount of money, with the result that a desert had been altered into a fertile strip of country. He pointed to the misery caused by the recent drought, and hoped the Government would accept the motion, so that, instead of running away, the water might in future be conserved. When they thought of the huge quantity which was allowed to run to waste into the sea, they were forced to the conclusion that something had got to be done.

said if the hon. member for Pretoria, North, had meant to effect something by his motion he should have brought something forward that was practical. These pious wishes were well known to the Government, and no doubt they will be glad to accept and take them into consideration, but they are not likely to go further than that. The hon. member who brought forward the motion seemed to have a grievance against his own Government because they had brought forward no legislation in regard to the conservancy of water. He remembered several dams that were built in the Cape Colony, with the result that the country was not one whit the better. There was no improvement in irrigation. Now the mover must admit that a very great change had come over this country, a change within the past six years, with regard to irrigation, beyond the expectations of anybody who had ever taken any interest in the matter. (Hear, hear.) Where the Government could do something, where they could lend a practical hand, was in getting more bores. One of the most marvellous object-lessons along the line was Laingsburg. On the one side they saw the country quite parched, and on the other they saw the town and beautiful green grass. A few years ago they counted their bore-holes by the hundred, and they were now counting them by the thousand. He had no doubt that in a year or two they would count their bore-holes by tens of thousands.

said he regretted that the Minister of Lands was indisposed and unable to take part in this debate. He (Mr. Fischer) and the department which he controlled were much impressed with the need of pushing along as much as possible with the means at their disposal. The department was divided into two sections—first of all, the work which the Government itself might undertake, and, secondly, the work which it might do in the way of looking into feasible schemes, advising land-owners in regard to the possibility of irrigating lands, and conserving water and preparing plans and specifications and estimates, etc. A very large amount of work had been done by the department in the Cape. The Government’s main object, as he understood it, was to assist people who were anxious to help themselves. Money was lent at a very low rate of interest, i.e., 3¾ per cent. Hon. members, or at least the mover and the hon. member for Troyeville, underestimated the work actually done by the Government. In the Cape the Government had not only made a start, but had done an immense amount of work. The amount outstanding in the Cape Province for irrigation loans at the present time was £371,000. (Hear, hear.) On the Loan Estimates for 1913-14 a sum of £353,000 was asked for in order to do the work which they were told they had not yet started to do. A sum of £61,000 was also set down for boring for water on Crown lands preparatory to offering them for sale. A sum of £50,000 was put down as a portion of a still larger sum as a loan to the Oliphants River Irrigation Board. They had £100,000 which was put in the Estimates for the purpose of making advances of a minor nature to land-owners. Altogether, so far as this vote was concerned, the Government had in hand or was superintending for private people and water boards irrigation works to the value of £860,000, and yet they were told by the hon. member for Troyeville that the Government had not made a start, and that it should get a move on. There were no fewer than 60 engineers, permanent and temporary, who were engaged in this work, and, as had been remarked, their labours were beginning to tell. This was work which should not be rushed, otherwise costly mistakes would be made. The attitude of the Government with regard to this motion was that they welcomed it and would accept it. It was not the intention of the Minister in charge to ask Parliament to vote any money to undertake works which had not been most carefully considered, and he would only spend money when he was satisfied that the work was not only sound from an engineering and agricultural point of view, but also sound from a financial point of view. It must be remembered that most of the lands favourably situated for irrigation were in private hands, and Government is not in a position to undertake gigantic schemes involving millions without money, and special legislation and the fullest consideration. Schemes of this sort will, no doubt, in course of time be taken up. He was sorry to hear the mover of the motion say that sometimes it was not the best thing to trust their engineers. Well, if they did not trust their engineers, whom were they going to trust? In conclusion, he said that the Government was prepared to accept the motion before the House.

said that he could not understand the speech of the right hon. member for Victoria West, who contended that because a few schemes had proved disastrous, every scheme would prove disastrous. He could not conceive anything more important for the welfare of this country than the conservation of water. He could not understand the necessity of a private member bringing in this motion in view of the oft-repeated promises of the Prime Minister. He (the speaker) remembered one utterance of the Prime Minister wherein the latter said that if they had to spend ten millions, the Government would show something practical at the end of five years. Well, three of those years had gone and the Prime Minister would have to put his shoulder to the wheel if he intended to carry out the programme which he had promised in the course of the next two years. If irrigation schemes which would mean permanent supplies of water could be carried out, he thought they would be able to get many people upon the land. He paid a tribute to the private work that had been done in the districts of Robertson, Worcester, and Oudtshoorn, and he contended that no country could show better results from such schemes than South Africa. He thought that effective schemes could be carried out by the Government on the Orange and the Vaal Rivers. These were too big for private people, and it was at this point that the Government should step in and do something. The Government had done a little. He was certain that nothing would be done that session, but he hoped that during the recess the Government would give this matter their earnest consideration and carry out some schemes that would be of practical benefit to the people of the country. He considered it was a shame that in a country like this so much water should be allowed to run to waste.

said he thought it was generally admitted that the Irrigation Department was the most competent department of the Government. He was very glad to hear the statement of the Minister with regard to boring on Crown lands, and recalled the efforts that were made in the old Cape Parliament to induce the Government to do more of this work. He thought that it would be a sound policy on the part of the Government to develop the water assets of Crown lands. He was astonished at the attitude that had been adopted by the right hon. the member for Victoria West, who considered that the private people of the country should do all that was necessary, quite forgetting the fact that last year he was absolutely in favour of everything being done by the department. Continuing, he deplored the fact that the officials of the Irrigation Department continued to prepare plans for private people who wished to go in for water schemes. That was a point which he had raised when the Irrigation Bill was before the House. The duty of the department was to tell the people what could be done and how it should be done, but it should not go further and prepare plans with the result that private practitioners were being cut out. The point was that many of these plans were prepared for people who were well able to pay the charges which were demanded by private practitioners. The fact was that the officials of the Government charged much below the amount that was asked for by the private man. He thought that the man who paid a fair rate for the work he had done would be more pleased with the work when it was done and would feel a better man than those who had their work done cheaply by a paternal Government. The Government was killing the private engineer at a very fast rate, and he thought that it was very unfair that a department should do anything of the sort. The hon. member went on to point out that the Government could do more practical work by carrying out irrigation schemes on the great rivers of the country where the private man would find it impossible to do anything. He was sorry that the Government was doing nothing to prevent the erosion of the soil throughout the Union. He thought that the Government owed the nation a duty in this regard, and he did not think that the House would object if the Government asked for money for such a laudable purpose. The terms of the motion were very vague.

supported the motion. During the last election he had listened with interest to a speech by the Prime Minister with regard to the spending of £10,000,000. Three years had now passed, and he hoped the money would be put out during the ensuing two years. He held that they should not only bear in mind the shortage of water of the agricultural industry, but also of the large towns. Why did the hon. member for Troyeville not refer to the shortage of water at Johannesburg, where the position often became very critical? During last year nobody was per-permitted to water his garden, etc. Unless provision were made, he (Mr. Geldenhuys), could not foresee where it would end. He could not sit still here and allow the present situation to continue. He foresaw that one day something would happen with the water in Johannesburg, which would have disastrous results.

“Absolutely.”

continuing, said it was no use going on making boreholes, because eventually they would pump the ground dry. Something ought to be done to see that Johannesburg was supplied with water. After all, Johannesburg was the heart of South Africa, and serious consideration should be given to its wants. The pumping up of subterranean water would dry up whole districts in the Transvaal.

regretted that the last speaker had brought Johannesburg into the question. He hoped the hon. member would make some practical suggestions as to what could be done. The motion had been called vague, but in the speaker’s view it was clear enough, He referred to the conditions prevailing in various parts of the country, and considered members should point out the direction in which the Government should go. At Oudtshoorn, for instance—in a dry part of the country—so much had been done that, instead of the sewers being dry, they now had normal flows everywhere. The same could be done in the Vet River, which was rapidly becoming dry. With regard to the surveys, these should be made, not only along the large rivers, but also along the rivers where the greatest drought prevailed. The motion was so wide that under it they could do a good deal, not only for the conservation of water on the surface, but also under the surface.

supported the motion. The hon. member for Hoopstad had suggested that the same course should be adopted as had been found to answer so well in the Oudtshoorn district, where dams had been constructed in the dry beds of rivers. This was not so. The change in the rivers was brought about by turning flood water on to the banks of the rivers, which caused a steady percolation into the river beds. The whole question of the farmer, he thought, was summed up in the matter of the conservation of water. There were hundreds of schemes lying from year to year without being considered, and he thought the Government should undertake some system of surveying the various districts, and by supplying reports of the surveys they would be taking a step in the right direction. The people would thus know what the possibilities of their district were. As far as his own district was concerned some useful work had been done by the surveys which the Government had started, and he believed many of them were likely to be developed in the near future. There was no reason why the Government should not come to these people and say “We will supply you with water if you will engage to take it,” and he thought there would be a large number of farmers who would support such schemes. These irrigation works could not be carried out by farmers themselves, and, therefore, they had to wait until the Government came along. In some districts there were large rivers which took great quantities of water away to sea, and he was convinced that if the Government were to survey these districts they would be able to divert that water into the dry areas of the Karoo. The cost, he thought, would only be nominal. He considered it was one of the duties of the Government to see that the dry parts of the Karoo were supplied with water. He also wished to draw attention to the great amount of damage caused by mountain fires. Some of the mountains he was familiar with when a boy were densely wooded, but after being burnt out there was nothing left on the slopes but bare rocks, all the soil having been washed away in consequence of the trees and undergrowth being destroyed. He thought the Government should introduce a Bill this session dealing with this question of mountain fires, and impose very heavy penalties on those who were the cause of them. Another matter he wished to refer to was the frequent delays experienced in answering the queries sent in by farmers. He hoped the Minister in charge would increase his staff, as at present it was not sufficient to deal with the work. Continuing, he said that the Irrigation Department were working at the highest pressure at the present time, and he did not think that it was wise on the part of the Government to stint the officials of the department. It was a fact that very shortly the work of the department would increase to a considerable extent, and he thought that the officials should be shown that they were doing something that was for the good of the country. He hoped that the Government would increase the staff of the Irrigation Department, so that it would be able to cope with all the extra work that would have to be done. He had the greatest pleasure in supporting the motion before the House.

said that the hon. members who had dealt with the matter had confined themselves to irrigation, forgetting that the mover’s object was the broader aspect of the question. That hon. member had referred to some system being carried out for the purpose of conserving water, and thus altering the rainfall conditions in those parts of the country that were affected by drought. The hon. member spoke from a wide experience of South Africa, and he had told them what was happening, and had happened in the interior of South Africa. He believed that South Africa in the past had depended on rainfall, which had been the result of the large lakes of water that were scattered over the country. Those districts that were suffering from drought would not be affected by the puny efforts at irrigation in other parts of the country. They should not look at this matter from a small point of view. This was a large matter. He knew that it was not a thing that could be looked at from a puny point of view. They must look at it from the broad point of view. They were not going to alter the rainfall conditions of the country by conserving water in one or two small places, and the right spots in the country must be ascertained by careful survey. He felt that this matter could not be tackled lightly, and they could only achieve the best results by the expenditure of a good deal of money. The right hon. the member for Victoria West threw a wet blanket over the whole business, but he would point out that the broad question which had been introduced by the hon. the mover of the motion was not one that could be tackled by private people. Now the hon. the member for Cape Town, Harbour, thought that he had solved the matter by boreholes. But he would say that that hon. gentleman was drawing on his capital. He had no doubt that there were huge reservoirs under the ground, but if they went on drawing they would eventually find nothing left. They must remember that in putting down these boreholes they were taking everything away without putting anything back. In that way they were spending all their capital. It was very difficult to say offhand the direction in which efforts should be made to change the conditions, but he thought that the Government might make a start by taking care of the herbage of the country. He thought that the Government should cheapen the rate for coal, and make it a staple in every household, so that the brushwood of the country would not be destroyed in the way that was happening at the present time.

said that the hon. member for Bechuanaland had made a strong point of the fact that the result of irrigation work was an increase in the value of land. The hon. member for Cape Town, Harbour, had said that this was one of the advantages of it. He did not think that this should be the primary object in enterprises of this kind. If the work done by Government was going to increase the value of land then he thought that the landowners should pay a certain percentage yearly towards the work that had been done. He pointed out that irrigation work on the Nile was being paid for by the landowners, who had benefited. Money was being spent, and the taxpayer was getting no return. In a way he agreed with the right hon. the member for Victoria West, for the reason that he did not think the Government was justified in carrying out these schemes simply for the purpose of putting up the value of land. If they could see a prospect of the money spent by the Government being successful in increasing the value of land, in placing settlers upon it, and in increasing the productivity, so that it would pay what was put into it and a little over, then it would be an excellent idea, and would have the support of the members on the cross-benches. The hon. member for Clanwilliam had referred to the bore-hole theory. They had a demonstration in Johannesburg; boreholes had been sunk, a slice of the country was acquired by the Rand Water Board at a tremendous cost, and now it was found that the supply of water was decreasing, and they were hunting the country round for further means of supply. If they had adopted the catchment idea they would have increased the supply and have conferred benefit on the community generally. He appreciated the interest of the hon. member for Pretoria, North, in the welfare of the country. The hon. member saw danger if these precautions were neglected, but he had not always been so anxious for the welfare of the country when other matters were under discussion. If they were so anxious to undertake these irrigation schemes, there was another source to which they could look for the money, and that was in a larger proportion of the mineral wealth being diverted into the coffers of the State. He hoped the hon. Minister would consider the advisability in connection with future schemes of finding out how much the landowners were going to benefit, and take a reasonable proportion of the enhanced value of the land in order that the people, represented by the Government, would be paid back a little of what they had put into it.

was in favour of the motion, which he regarded as one of the most important which had ever been brought before the House. He said money could not be spent on any better purpose than on irrigation, though he was not in favour of Government spending money on a large scale on every and any scheme. He referred to the misery which had been caused by the recent drought in the Transvaal, and urged the necessity of dams being built in the large rivers. The effect of such a policy would be that large numbers of people could be settled there, where human beings could not live now. (Hear, hear.) He did not agree that the Government had done nothing, but felt that more should be done. He referred to work down at Klippan by a man named Wilson, who got by boring a 4-inch stream of water. He considered that the Government could bore for water on Crown lands, and so make them habitable. In conclusion, he urged that the price for the hire of Government bores should be reduced so that farmers might be able to avail themselves of these bores.

rose to draw the attention of the Government to the tremendous possibilities in the way of irrigation which were to their hand in the Transkei. A great deal could be done in that territory in the way of water conservation. There was no part of the country where more could be done. In the Transkei they had suffered severely from the drought of last year, and the Government had had to take measures to supply the people with sufficient mealies. There was sufficient water there to provide against the greatest crises which could prevail; there were streams which never got dry even in long periods of drought, and there was plenty of splendid arable ground. During one of the droughts he had seen stretches of country dried up, although water was running within a few feet of the lands. The natives only wanted showing the way to use the water. They could be got to utilise the water which was running away all the year round if the Government would help them. In one district there was at least one hundred square miles which could be laid under water, and could be made to produce from five to ten times as much as it produced at present.

said he agreed with the motion, and trusted the Government would give effect to it. He urged that the Government should see to it that something was done; and he held that investigations should be made as to the existence of subterranean waters in the various parts of the country. The hon. member for Cape Town, Harbour, had pressed for more water boring to be done, and the speaker quite agreed with him, and thought the Government should bore down to 3,000 or 4,000 feet. Private persons could not do such work, as it would cost £7,000 or £8,000, and even then often failed. The right hon. member for Victoria West had said that people should help themselves. Well, he would like the hon. member to see what was being done in his district by private enterprise, and argued that even if the outlay for the building of dams was large, the outlay would be reproductive, and would have highly beneficial effects. If once they started properly on irrigation, they would see their population increased, and the question of the poor whites would be solved. They should go and look at the lands at Douglas. It was a shame that they did not use the Rooiberg dam.

said the last speaker had stated that South Africa was drying up, and yet he urged there should be more bores.

Yes, for the very deep subterranean water.

continued that it was a proved fact that boring led to exhaustion of the water. He was there opposed to the policy of boreholes; he thought the best policy would be to have large catchment areas where the water could be conserved. As regarded the complaint that the Government, through its engineers, competed with private engineers, the hon. member contended that, as a matter of fact, there were not sufficient Government engineers. The more expert advice the Government could provide farmers with the better, he argued. Everything should be done to prevent the washing away of good soil. Some of the Cape irrigation schemes had failed no doubt. They ought only to be placed in the hands of experts, and when a farmer was willing to carry out a scheme of irrigation, it was the duty of the Government to help him practically and with advice.

who was for the most part inaudible, said that in regard to the hon. member who had just spoken, he might just as well talk of a scheme for letting the sea into the Kalahari Desert. Hon. members on each side of the House looked somewhat askance at Government schemes, and they had reason for it, because they had seen large sums of money spent on schemes that had proved to be utter failures. He would not say he altogether disapproved of the Government undertaking these schemes, but he thought the Government had acted extremely wisely in fostering private enterprise. The Government in lending money at a cheap rate of interest had done far more than they would have had they gone in for any amount of schemes. That policy was the best. He disliked spoon feeding; but he agreed with assistance being given by the Government where it could be legitimately given. If the Government did consider a scheme it ought to be put before this House. The Government had helped irrigation in this country to a very great extent indeed, and what little he had seen of the result of the Government’s beneficial help he had altogether approved of. Right through the Cape Province there was growing enterprise on the part of private individuals. That was what he wanted to see. He wanted to see the farmers undertaking irrigation works themselves. Where the Government should come in was when they could help without cost to the community.

expressed himself as a supporter of private enterprise, preferring it to irrigation works undertaken by the Government. In regard to the various policies which had been advocated, he preferred a system of building dams to a system of boring. Naturally, it was impossible for private enterprise to deal with the whole matter. In reference to the Thebus scheme, on which £80,000 had been spent, he held that the failure of this scheme had been due to the fact that the Government of the day had been too weak to carry the scheme through. He also held that the starting of large irrigation works would go a long way towards the solution of the poor white problem. A good deal had been done on behalf of the people who had means of their own, but nothing at all for the poor. The hon. member went on to urge that Government experts should be sent to the various parts of the country to advise farmers as to what should be done. He did not mean, he explained, to criticise the Government, but only wanted them to realise the importance of this matter. The Eastern districts of the Cape were suitable for the making of dams, but they had never seen a Government engineer there yet.

said he had never listened to so many divergent opinions. It was true a Government could do much, but they could not, as had been suggested, alter the climatic conditions of the country. They could not rush into a matter of this kind, but, he urged, the Government had done a good deal. If they went through this country they would see that there were many parts which could be well compared with many other countries. He held that, taking into consideration the small excellently. They must remember that white population, they were progressing they had only half a million whites here. One point, however, had struck him forcibly, and that was the lack of enterprise among the people, and the old theory that the Government and the Parliament must do everything for them was still only slowly disappearing Yet there was improvement in that even, and there was no longer that feeling of absolute reliance and dependence on the Government, which had been so prominent in the past. (Hear, hear.) He had listened with a keen sense of disappointment to the remarks of the hon. member for Newlands, and held that the Government were doing their utmost to provide the best experts possible. It would not be right to make the public pay for the advice of those experts. If the Department was not extensive enough, let them extend it further. General Botha went on to point, to the policy followed in regard to the advancing of money for irrigation purposes. Their intention was to build up a sound policy, and he thought, in view of the short period the Irrigation law had been in existence they were getting along well. This year they were spending on irrigation works £370,000, and the intention was to spend £500,000 next year, and to go along like that from year to year for the welfare of the country. They could not and should not spend £10,000,000 in one year.

General Botha went on to refer to the difficulties connected with the starting of large irrigation works; there was the expropriation of land, for instance, with ground which had risen in price to £30 per morgen. If they made the system too expensive, then he feared that the cost would be so heavy that they would not see any practical results of their efforts, nor ever be able to settle poor people on such land. He agreed that they should encourage the spirit of enterprise among the people, so that a number of small works might be created, of which the people themselves had taken the initiative. If the people could not at once start on a large scheme, let them start on a small one, and gradually extend the enterprise. He was not in favour of centralising on one large scheme, but thought it would be far preferable to have a number of small dams at a large number of places. General Botha went on to deal with the question of boring, and expressed the opinion that this system would not prove sufficient for agricultural purposes. By means of boring farmers might get sufficient water for their cattle, but he doubted whether farmers would get sufficient water for their lands. Dealing with other remarks, General Botha touched on the speech of the hon. member for Vrededorp in regard to Johannesburg. He pointed out that in Johannesburg there was a Water Board, which had to deal with the question of water. After buying up other rights, they had taken all the water out of the Klip River, so that the farms beside it had run dry and the farmers had been forced to trek. After pointing to the present state of affairs, General Botha expressed the opinion that a most regrettable position had been created in Johannesburg. It was impossible for the Government to take up this question and provide water to everyone concerned, without interfering with vested rights. (Hear, hear.) Therefore, this was a matter which had to be dealt with by means of a private Bill, otherwise he feared Mr. Speaker might intervene. Johannesburg was a large city, and was continually growing, and the water scheme was insufficient to cope with the demands of the town. (Hear, hear.) He thought the Rand Water Board must see that more water was provided, and that a larger scheme was created. They had heard of the Suikerboschrand scheme, of the Hartebeestpoort scheme, but it never got any further than schemes. (Hear, hear.) He had hoped that a Bill on this matter would have been before Parliament early this session, as the matter was an urgent one. If a good scheme was provided, a very large area would be served. Under present circumstances, the dolomite formation was disappointing and unreliable. In conclusion, he held that if one matter required the consideration and sympathy of the House, it was this one; and he was pleased to see that an organisation, of which the leader of the Opposition was the president, kept the people alive to the importance of the subject. If farmers tackled the matter properly, he was optimistic as to the future.

said he was sorry the House had to wait until close upon six o’clock to get a pronouncement from the Government. It seemed to him that the Government were inclined to let the matter drop and to still maintain that attitude of indifference to the interests of the mining industry which had been shown in the past. On the Rand they had spent £3,000,000 on a water supply, nor had they asked the Government for assistance, except in regard to sympathetic legislation. He might tell them that there was going to be a breakdown in the present method of obtaining an efficient supply of water, which would not only have serious consequences to the mining industry, but to the farmer as well. There were the two rivers, the Orange and the Vaal, but it was impossible to get any land on the banks of these rivers except at a fabulous price, because there was a monopoly. They were told that nothing suitable for irrigation or reservoir purposes could be obtained under £30 per morgen, and why was that? Because there was no land tax, and until machinery was put into the hands of the Government for breaking up big holdings of land they were never going to do justice to the poor man. What the country ought to have was a tax on land, especially on unproductive land. Along the Vaal River there were 50,000 morgen held in one hand. He would reserve what he had further to say for a future occasion.

It being five minutes to six p.m.,

stated that in accordance with the Order adopted by the House to-day, he would now adjourn the debate.

The debate was adjourned until Wednesday, April 2.

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

rising to a point of order, said the vote purported to be for a portion of the service of the year ending March 31 this year. In point of fact they had it from the Minister of Defence that the money was not to be expended in this financial year; therefore, it did not form part of the additional expenditure of this particular year. It seemed to him (Sir Edgar) that it would be out of order to deal with this particular item. He accordingly asked the Chairman’s ruling on the point as to whether it was competent for the committee to consider this vote in view of the admission made by the Minister that this sum could not be spent during the current financial year, and whether therefore the amount could be included in the schedule of expenditure for the current year?

said it was the intention to use the money for the establishment of a fund on which the Minister proposed to draw in future years, but the Bill was to make provision for a shortfall in the Estimates for the services for the year ending March 31, 1913. The committee was now dealing with the unauthorised expenditure for the current financial year.

These Estimates are for the year ending the 31st March, 1913. When they are finally adopted, an Act will be required to give effect to them; the expenditure could only be incurred in terms of the provisions of that Act and it would, I think, be the function of the Controller and Auditor-General to see that that was done. I therefore rule that the vote is in order.

pointed out that the money had not been spent.

said he was sorry he had not given the Chairman notice of his intention to raise the point, but it occurred to him only between the hours of 6 and 8 o’clock this evening, otherwise he would have given notice. As the matter was an important one, he would move to report progress so that Mr. Speaker’s ruling could be obtained.

The motion was carried.

Mr. Speaker resumed the Chair.

stated the point which had arisen in committee, and that the committee desired to obtain Mr. Speaker’s ruling thereon, and that he had accordingly been ordered to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

addressing Mr. Speaker, said before a ruling was given he would like to explain.

asked if he might explain his position first. He regretted that this question should have been sprung upon the Chair. The matter only occurred to him during the recess, otherwise he would have given notice. They were dealing with additional expenditure for the year 1912-13, and the House was now asked to approve a certain item of expenditure to be incurred during that year. The hon. Minister had included in that expenditure an item of £250,000 for defence stores, and he admitted to the House that that amount was not to be spent during the year. It was not part of the expenditure of the year 1912-13, and under the circumstances he asked if an item of that kind could be placed in the schedule of expenditure for the year?

said the ambiguity was connected with the word “spent.” His hon. friend said that he (the Minister) admitted that the money was not to be spent in the year 1912-13, but what it was proposed to do was to create a fund to be drawn upon during the current year so that the money would be spent in that way; that was the proper meaning of the word “spent” in that connection. There was another meaning of the word, for the sum would ultimately be spent on the objects provided for.

said he thought the point was of very great importance and he did not think it fair to call upon Mr. Speaker to give an answer at a moment’s notice.

said, before a ruling was given, he would like to call the attention of the House to the fact that it was not a novel method of procedure as regards the principle. The objection of the hon. member for Pretoria, East, might be to the amount, but with regard to the principle they had followed it before. If hon. members would turn to the Public Works Department Estimates they would see there was an item, stores, standard stock £200. That was a similar matter. It was a practice which had been followed all through Union and in some of the Colonies before Union. If it was necessary to increase the capital of the stores a sum was voted and handed over to the stores fund and the fund was then bound to account for it in cash or stores. What did the hon. member do in this case? He proposed to increase the capital of this fund by a certain sum The principle had been acted upon previously and nothing that was novel was involved.

said that he was extremely surprised to see how soon his hon. friend had vacated his old role of Auditor-General. If they passed the vote, they would be handing over the money to the hon. Minister, who would be able to do with is just as he liked. He (Mr. Jagger) had never known such a large amount voted without the slightest particulars of detail being given. Such a procedure tended to weaken the control of that House over expenditure.

said the question was a legal one and required a legal mind to answer. Supposing that this sum had appeared in the Estimates in the year 1912-13, would the Minister have been any worse off? He submitted the question put to the chair should be answered in the affirmative.

There is an item of a similar nature on page 24 of the Estimates, viz.: Addition to stores capital account, £8,498. In regard to the vote challenged, I may point out that the committee can only be guided by the amount asked. It rests entirely with the committee to vote the money or not on the facts given. The Act that will be required after these Estimates have been adopted by the House—if they are adopted—will, I take it, define the manner in which the money is to be spent, and it will rest with the Controller and Auditor-General to see that the terms of that Act are observed. Under these circumstances I agree with the ruling given by the Chairman that the vote is in order.

The House resumed in Committee.

Seeing that the matter would go to the vote, they ought to have some details, some statement of the Minister as to how he was going to spend the money. Was he prepared to agree to this fund being thrown open for the vote of the House? The fairest way would be to say that the funds could only be drawn upon by appropriation in the ordinary way.

said that they were asked to vote a sum of money for the Defence Stores Fund. The ordinary operation of a stores fund was that the money was provided for from loan or revenue for the creation of a stores fund. That sum could be added to by the votes of Parliament from time to time. Supposing that sum of £250,000 was voted in that House for the purchase of field artillery, etc. While provision was made from the various heads for the forthcoming year, he did not notice that any provision was made in the Estimate for field artillery or batteries. What was going to be the position under that fund? The order of procedure would be that this fund was placed at the disposal of the Minister, but the moment the Minister issued any of the stores, then they must give an ordinary vote for the repayment. What would be the position in regard to field batteries? Suppose the batteries cost £60,000. The hon. Minister would get the authority of Parliament for £60,000 for field artillery next year; that would go into store, and unless he was going to wrap them up in cotton wool and keep them as an ornament, he was going to issue them. As a result the stores fund would be depleted of the stores which had gone into use, and a similar amount would go into the vote for 1913-14 to replace the capital. He found no provision of that sort in the votes for 1913-14. They had nothing on the Estimates in regard to field artillery, which was one of the most costly items, and he wanted the Minister to give them some information on it. The point was a somewhat technical one, but he regarded it as a most important one, and he did not want the House saddled next year with the sum of £60,000.

said that he did not think the hon. member had yet learnt the full inwardness of his master’s finance. (Laughter.) The finance of the Minister was the finance of windfalls. A certain rich man had died, and the Minister had had a windfall; he was hoping for another next year, or it would go hard with him. (Laughter.) If the arguments of the hon. member (Mr. Orr) were going to prevail, it would go very hard with the hon. Minister’s system of finance. (Laughter.)

said that the Defence Act had had a good reception in the country, as had been shown by the registrations which had taken place under that Act. He thought, however, that the Act could be made even more popular. A complaint had been heard as to the manner in which rifle clubs were provided with ammunition. Various conditions were laid down as to the providing of such ammunition; he held that one general rule should apply throughout all the Provinces. It was said that the rifle clubs of Natal, the Transvaal, and even the Cape received their ammunition under more favourable conditions than did the Free State rifle clubs. He urged that uniformity should prevail in regard to a matter of this kind.

said that, as to the point raised by the hon. gentleman opposite, as had already been explained, that idea of a standard stock account was not a new one, and they had a number of Government departments where that system was already in vogue. There were departments which had to have large stocks of material, and in that country stock accounts had been introduced in regard to the Public Works Department and the Post Office. A certain standard had to be maintained. That was the system, and was far the best system in order to work a large stores account, otherwise they had the trouble that in one year they might spend very little, and in another very much indeed. Under the present system there were no violent fluctuations. His hon. friend behind him (Mr. Orr) asked in what way provision was made in the estimates of that year for the amount that would be spent on the standard stock account. No actual provision was made, because as that money was largely to go into guns and gun ammunition, and those guns had to be ordered, of course they were not likely to be issued to the various regiments before they got to the next financial year, 1914-15; and then provision would have to be made for the replacement of the stock, but it was not likely that any payment would be made, and therefore no provision was necessary to be made.

said, did his hon. friend the Minister desire to tell the House in good faith that he desired to ask for £250,000 to make provision for purchases not for the ensuing financial year? He wanted the House to be perfectly clear on that matter, so that there should be no ambiguity. His hon. friend had taken up an extraordinary attitude—extraordinary as far as the procedure of the Cape House was concerned, which governed the procedure of that House.

said that his hon. friend had been so anxious to score a point that he had not listened to the explanation. (Laughter.) The point he had been making was that the larger part of that sum would have to be spent on guns which would take some time to manufacture, and it was not anticipated that the issue of these guns would take place during the year 1913-14. That was why no provision was made.

May I ask the Minister for an explanation?What is he going to spend? Because we have got in the main Estimates a fairly large sum for “arms and ammunition”—equipment amounting to no less than £116,000. What is going to be spent? What does he contemplate the arming and setting up of his force is likely to cost? Proceeding, the right hon. member said that he gathered that a rifle cost £4; that a battery cost—if they had a really tip-top one—£13,000; and a rather inferior article, suitable for horse artillery, only cost £12,000. Well, how many of these rather expensive necessaries was he going to get? He might give them a little information before asking the House to allocate a considerable sum of money. He understood that the fund was like the stores fund on the railway. He thought in the good old Cape Parliament they should have to borrow the money—too often, he was afraid, but they had also allocated surpluses there to paying off rinderpest and public buildings, and also for store purposes, because they had had a free hand in dealing with the surpluses there. Continuing, the hon. member, referring to what his two hon. friends opposite had said about him the previous evening, twitted them with their past actions in the Cape Parliament.

What they wanted to know was the amount they really wanted. It was no use voting more money than they wanted. They had £116,000 down on the main Estimates. Did the Minister mean to tell him that they wanted £360,000 for these stores in one year? It was an amazing sum of money. It was a great pity the hon. Minister did not send the schedule to the Public Accounts Committee, where they would have had the opportunity of having the distinguished military officer at the head of the force up before them, and ascertained what he was going to do —how many batteries he was going to buy, how many rifles he was going to buy, and how many rounds of ammunition he would have in store. This sum might seem a light trifle to some hon. members now, but let him tell them that the time was coming when £360,000 would have to come out of their pockets. They would not think it a small sum then. That time had been foreshadowed by the Minister of Finance with engaging frankness. There was not one man who had not tinkered with the Sinking Fund at, one time or another, so they should not assume a virtue they did not feel. The hon. Minister should let them know what was required. It was no use throwing money away to set up a larger military shop than was needed.

I think the hon. member should remember that he suggested himself that that Sinking Fund should be stopped. I remember it very well. Proceeding, he said that he would like to point out that he agreed with what the right hon. member had said in connection with this matter. The Defence Department could buy what guns they wanted; but would it not be better if they brought forward in the Supplementary Estimates what they intended to spend on stores in the following year, and charge it to this account. It would reserve to this House some control of the actual spending of this money.

asked the Minister a question, but was in audible.

said he was afraid that the revelations in regard to the Cape, which had always been their paragon, tended to blunt much of their morality. The barbarians from the North, who had had to learn everything from this end, had been very rudely shocked. (Laughter.) But he was sorry that the discussion had taken place on defence, and he hoped that no one grudged the money for that purpose. However, the Minister said it took a long time to get these guns. They had to be specially made. Of course, it was no use buying ammunition before they had the guns. He supposed the Union Government would have sufficient credit to place the order for the guns without having to put the money down, and would pay on delivery. Well, they were not going to be delivered for a year.

C.I.F.

said the Minister of Defence had had to have a talk with the Minister of Finance to talk it over, and, like in the Mikado, he had gone across to the other side of the stage to do so. (Laughter.) He would like to know what would have been said if the hon. member for Barberton had been the Minister of Finance, and he was asked to give up £250,000 of his surplus to defence, that might have gone towards extinction of debt. But here the Minister of Finance was the Minister of Defence. He had a surplus, and as it would be very awkward for him to take this money out of the next year’s revenue, the Minister of Defence and the Minister of Finance squared it between them. That was not the right way to do it. If there was going to be a deficit, the hon. Minister should let them know it. It was true he was candid a day or two ago, and said there would be a deficit. Well, why conceal it now? This amount would have to be made good by taxation next year. Why conceal that there would have to be taxation? The Minister told people there would be no further taxation when he knew that, they would have to have taxation.

asked, supposing his hon. friend the hon. member for Barberton had been Minister of Finance, what would have been the good of his imposing taxation? As it was, his estimate of revenue was out by a million pounds. As a matter of fact, the best calculator could not say what was going to happen in the future.

Or which way it will go.

continuing, said, why should they impose taxation on the people when it was unnecessary. They should wait until taxation was really necessary, and they had to ask the country to face it. He had already explained that they had done so much in the way of redeeming debt and increasing the sinking fund since Union, that he thought they had done far more than their duty in that regard. It was, of course, a wise principle to say that a surplus should go to debt redemption; but there was a limit in the application of even a good principle; and when they found that in four years they had paid to sinking fund and debt redemption almost four million pounds, then he thought he was quite right in saying that under the circumstances they should devote this money towards a perfectly legitimate object.

That is not one per cent, of our debt.

said his right hon. friend the hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman) asked, how was this money to be spent? Of course, it was intended that this stock account should build up the necessary reserves. On the Estimates they had provision made for the year 1913-14 for the money that would be spent in that year. The ammunition bought that year would be shot away that year. But in a country like this they must have large reserves of ammunition (Government cheers.) It was intended to build up the reserve of arms and ammunition which would be necessary in the future, and he was afraid that much more would be necessary than even this amount of £250,000 which the House was asked to give up. They had had to arm the regiment of South African Mounted Rifles with five batteries, and they proposed to get, as soon as possible, six batteries for the Citizen Force. They had to get ammunition, not only to be spent annually in practice, but reserve ammunition; and he was told by those who were acquainted with these matters, and who had gone carefully into the figures, that the sum of money that would be necessary for a period of years would be more like £500,000 or £600,000. Of course, they could have paid this money into the sinking fund, and then borrowed the money for this purpose. But he thought they did a wise thing by using this money for this purpose instead of paying it into sinking fund. It was quite true that he was both Minister of Finance and Minister of Defence, and that he could use this surplus for this absolutely legitimate purpose. But the day might come when this standard stock for the Defence Force would be one of the wisest provisions they had ever made. He thought they were doing the right and wise thing, and the House should not grudge the money.

said that he was confirmed in the opinion he expressed last year when he pointed out at the end of the session what an extraordinarily dangerous thing it was to combine the two offices of Minister of Finance and Minister of Defence. The taxpayer was simply undefended in the Cabinet. His hon. friend, with all the respect and admiration that he had for him, could not combine these two things. In all countries the Minister of Defence and the Minister of War were always the people who were crying out for more. (Hear, hear.) They were never satisfied. Every country now was groaning under these bloated armaments, because of its Defence Ministers and their advisers. Owing to a fortunate concatenation of circumstances we in this country had money which was burning our pockets. The Minister talked about a reserve of ammunition. How long did it take before ammunition, cordite, wore out? He was informed that cordite ammunition was a thing which in a very few years was out of date and that it was perfectly valueless. The estimate quoted by him provided for 1,000 rounds of ammunition for each gun. How many more were they to have? His hon. friend, by the dual position which he occupied, was able to grant himself, as Minister of Defence, a blank cheque. It was a most unsatisfactory state of affairs for any country, and it was a good thing that it was within the walls of this House, and that those who were to be approached to lend us some money did not know that the Defence Minister and Finance Minister were the same individual. He approved of the mode of raising the money in this case, but he felt an entire discomfort, and he felt that the interests of the taxpayers of this country were not sufficiently safeguarded under the present condition of affairs. (Hear hear.)

said that the present crisis in Japan arose on the very point that the demands of the Minister of Marine and the Minister of War were more than the Finance Minister would stand. The recent crisis in Austria was due to the same reason. This money was to be spent without the slightest criticism from the House. They were asked to give a blank cheque to spend £250,000. He moved that the consideration of the vote stand over until they had had placed before them a schedule showing how the money was to be spent.

said he wished to support the motion. The information given in the Estimates was very inadequate indeed, and the information now given, to his mind, did not tally with the information which the Minister gave when he introduced these Estimates. He thought the practice of the House of Commons should be adopted, and that the House should be furnished with a memorandum explaining the expenditure. According to the footnote, this sum of £250,000 was to be used for other purposes than stores, and there was a reference to “an increase of the stock of Defence material.” Again, they would like to know on what basis this estimate of £500,000 or £600,000 that the Minister now talked of had been arrived at.

said he should imagine that his right hon. friend would support his proposal. The Minister was relying on his docile majority and nobody seemed to be more docile than the right hon. gentleman when it came to the vote, but he hoped that he (Mr. Merriman) had now come back to the grace which they regretted to see him depart from the other day. If his hon. friend the Minister did not agree to this motion, he was treating the House with the greatest disrespect. He had not taken the House into his confidence as to how he proposed to spend this money, and it was due to the House that he should place upon the Table a schedule with regard to the expenditure.

said he hoped that the appeal his hon. friend made to the right hon. gentleman would be unnecessary, in view of the fact that the speech which he gave a little while ago furnished the strongest argument for the motion. It was more than ever necessary that they should be very careful to guard against extravagance in the spending of what, after all, was a windfall. Another reason for supporting this motion was the dual position occupied by the Minister. The remarks of the right hon. gentleman furnished the strongest condemnation for the departure which he condoned from the principle of applying these surpluses to the redemption of debt. He hoped the Minister would afford members every opportunity of seeing how the money was being spent.

The motion was negatived.

said that the Opposition had made its protest, and that was as far as they could go, but no doubt later on they would have an opportunity of explaining the position to the country. He wished the Minister would explain a resolution passed by the Defence Council that members of the Defence Force in areas assigned the C.M.R. should be given the opportunity to be transferred to other districts.

said they could not have an army without arms, and the House must be prepared to vote money for the purpose of arming the men. They could congratulate the hon. member for Cape Town, Central, on his return to his normal state of mind (laughter)—for last night the hon. member was in an extravagant mood, but to-night he was on the side of economy.

said the hon. member must not refer to a past debate.

said the House could safely leave the matter in the hands of the Minister of Defence and his advisers.

said the House could not allow the Minister to spend money how he liked on any subject whether defence or not. He (Sir Lionel), could only join in the protests that had been made by his hon. friends, and with the right hon. gentleman opposite who did not always vote as he spoke. It was an astounding thing that the Minister acknowledged that he was taking £250,000, and was going to spend it without giving the house any information. He (Sir Lionel), was astounded that that kind of thing was accepted by the House.

said he was astounded at hearing his hon. friend (Mr. Fawcus) talk in this light way of the £250,000, which was intended for the setting up of a shop for military material. The £116,000 was to pay for the arms and ammunition they took out of that shop. (Cries of “No, no.”) It was hopeless to attempt to extract any account from the Minister as to what his real intention was. He (Mr. Merriman) was not here to embarrass the Minister, but to warn the country and his hon. friends behind him that their time was coming before very long—(Opposition cheers)—when they would be just as eager as he was to check expenditure. We were rapidly nearing the point when the voice of the “ten bobber” would be heard in the land, and then the country would be on a much sounder financial basis.

said they could not provide an army with guns and rifles without ammunition being also required.

Nonsense, that is provided for.

said he was quite satisfied with the Minister’s explanation. Would any hon. member deny that it was necessary to build up a reserve stock, and if that were granted surely £250,000 was not too much. If we were going to have a Defence Force, do not let us have a play one.

The vote was agreed to.

moved the reduction of the vote by £1. His motion involved a very important principle—whether those who were charged with carrying out the law were to break the law and the taxpayer to pay the bill. The vote had connection with the treatment of two awaiting trial prisoners—Whittaker and Morant. These men were connected with the Johannesburg tram strike and were arrested. The attitude of the authorities showing a wanton contempt of the rights of individual citizens—an attitude which characterised the whole of the authorities’ proceedings in connection with the strike. These two men were charged with having something to do with some dynamite which had been laid on the tramway. While they were in prison they were entitled to be treated not as ordinary prisoners, but as prisoners awaiting trial. Under the instructions of the Secretary for Justice (Mr. Roos) these men were placed in solitary confinement and restricted altogether beyond the limits which are allowable to prisoners awaiting trial. This thing would have gone on, but Whittaker’s friends asked for an order restraining the governor of the gaol from continuing the illegal treatment. Mr. Justice Mason, in issuing the order, animadverted strongly upon the action of the gaol authorities. Subsequently Whittaker was tried and was acquitted, and then he brought an action against Mr. Roos and the governor of the gaol, Mr. Bateman. He (Mr. Creswell) thought the House should submit that the officers of the Crown were just as much bound to obey the law as any other citizens of the country. They had to defend their actions in their individual capacities. In the first action which Whittaker brought the Court found for Whittaker, but he was awarded contemptuous damages. Not satisfied with that he appealed to the Appeal Court at Bloemfontein, and was granted substantial damages. On what ground did the hon. Minister ask the House to vote for the payment of this money which Mr. Roos had contracted in his individual capacity? If the taxpayers were to be called upon in cases like that he (Mr. Creswell) did not know where it was going to end. Officers of the executive had to obey the law like other citizens, and should stand the consequences if they disobeyed. He moved the deletion of this sum, and he hoped that the hon. Minister would give some better reasons than he had done why the money should be charged to the general taxpayer.

said that throughout the proceedings the Minister responsible for the Department of Justice was cognisant of what was happening, and authorised the various steps which were taken. Legal advice was taken in the Law Department and outside also, and on their advice the Minister authorised the proceedings which were taken. Under those circumstances the hon. member and the House would understand that it was not possible to hold these officers liable for the costs they had incurred. Where a public servant was sued in his public capacity when he was acting in public interest, the cost or damages were paid from the public purse. There was complete justification for exonerating these officials from payment of the costs, and he had departed from the ordinary course and had brought this matter forward in the Estimates, so that the House would know what had really happened.

said the admission of the Minister had made the matter more serious than before. As he understood him now, he said that the Government were responsible, and not Mr. Roos. Justice Mason clearly condemned the illegality of Mr. Roos’ action. It now transpired that the Ministry was directly responsible; was that conduct worthy of the Government? Was it a thing that the House approved that the Minister should sanction resistance of this man’s rightful claim for damages? They should rather have recognised Mr. Justice Mason’s ruling on the matter and have tendered Whittaker reasonable damages, instead of which they decided to fight him every step of the way. He (Mr. Creswell) was indeed surprised to hear that the Minister was cognisant of the proceedings step by step; when they had broken the law was it fair of them to resist the man’s just claim? To call public attention to the matter he would have preferred to move the reduction of the whole sum, as it was he would move the amount be reduced by one pound.

called the attention of the House to the reports of the Auditor-General, where the facts were set out. The hon. Minister told them that he had introduced the matter in the Estimates so that the committee would have the opportunity of going into it fully, but if hon. members cared to read the reports they would have got full information and would have discovered it for themselves. There were other items in the reports of a similar nature which should be interesting to the House. There was the case of a Mr. Ginsberg, who brought an action against the Government for the renewal of the lease. Complainant lost the action, and a sum of £67 10s. was incurred by the Government. That money did not appear to have been recovered.

He maintained that there was not sufficient information there to show that that £67 10s. was not recoverable. On page 116 they would find that there had been an action against the Chief Immigration Officer for contempt of court, and that a sum of £30 had been incurred. Mr. Cousins had been found guilty of contempt of court and ordered to pay the costs personally, yet they found that the Government, or rather the country, was paying his costs. The point was not so much whether these moneys had been spent, but the principle of the thing was wrong.

said that he was glad that the motion had been put in that form, instead of striking out the whole amount. The information which had been given threw a new light upon the case. His recollection of the case when it had come before the court at Pretoria was that instructions had not been given by the Government, but now it appeared that instructions had been given. Evidence had been given by the Secretary for Justice, which, in his recollection, was that no instructions had been given by him or with his knowledge. He certainly thought that the defence which the Minister had put up did not improve the case. (Hear, hear.) If the thing had been done by mistake or by over zeal on the part of an official, well, everyone was liable to make mistakes, but that was a more serious matter.

said that he had understood the Minister to say that the real culprit in that matter was the Minister of Justice.

No; I did not say that.

Dr. Macaulay thereupon resumed his seat.

said that he realised how important it was, having been a public servant himself, that the acts of public servants should be supported by Parliament, and when the Minister said that the Government took the responsibility, he advanced the most elementary proposition of Parliament; unless, of course, there had been very gross neglect or misconduct on the part of subordinate officials. He did not think anybody could read the judgment of the Court of Appeal without coming to the conclusion that the action of the Secretary for Justice invited the most severe comment. He would vote for the reduction.

declared the amendment negatived.

said he understood they had a system in the Transvaal called “suspended sentences.” Quite recently there was a very bad case in which two men were accused of culpable insolvency—so bad, in fact, that one of the partners, rather than face the Court, committed suicide. The other partner was tried, found guilty, and sentenced to four years’ imprisonment. An appeal was made and his sentence was suspended, which practically meant that he got off scot free. Well, he could understand suspension in the case of a boy; but here was the case of a grown man, and to suspend the sentence in such a case was to encourage crime. He had been told that another case had been treated in the same way, and that these cases had created a good bit of feeling in Johannesburg. What check was there on a man? He was found guilty by the Court and sentenced to be punished, but his sentence was suspended, and he thus got off. He thought it was an extremely unsatisfactory state of affairs, and he wanted to raise his protest against it.

said there was a great outcry from the mercantile community as to the administration of the insolvency law, and it was contended that the law itself was insufficient to protect the interests of the merchant. There was no doubt that the case referred to was a very serious one. The judge sentenced the man to four years and then suspended the sentence for that period on condition of good behaviour. To show how bad was the case, he might mention that there were ten counts to the indictment. This suspension should only be applied to the case of first offenders and youths. Another matter he wished to deal with was in regard to pro Deo cases where barristers were detained by the Crown to defend persons accused of murder. He believed, up to a short time ago, a very reasonable fee was paid to such barristers, but now he understood that the Government was cutting it down. He thought that the Government should pay a reasonable fee of five guineas.

said he quite admitted that the case referred to had caused a certain amount of comment in Johannesburg. At the same time he thought it would be very unfortunate if this House began to criticise the discretion exercised by judges. It was not a question of a good law or a bad law, but the question of a judge’s discretion. In regard to the matter of pro Deo cases, he understood that the Bar Council of the Transvaal had decided that unless something was done to meet their views in regard to what they considered reasonable fees, the members would not accept these briefs.

said an unsatisfactory state of affairs would be created if members of the Bar refused to accept pro Deo cases unless they were paid a reasonable fee. The position would be especially unsatisfactory in the native districts. Natives did not understand the procedure of the Courts, and it would be a great hardship if in future they would be unable to obtain counsel if they were charged with capital offences. It was not right to expect members of the Bar to undertake these cases for nothing, and it was an injustice to expect the natives to go undefended.

said there was one matter on which he was continually receiving representations, and that was the new tariff fixing the fees of jurymen and witnesses. It was not right that men who were called upon to serve on the jury list should be mulcted in their daily earnings thereby. The rate fixed on the Witwatersrand, he understood, was 5s. a day, and it was not right to take men away from their work when their earnings was perhaps £2 or £3 a day. Why should men be fined for doing their duty to the State?

said he did not think there had been any request from the Cape or the Free State for the payment of fees in pro Deo murder cases. In the Cape, it was considered something of a compliment when a junior member of the Bar was requested to take a case. But, of course, if one part of the Union was going to be paid, he did not see why the other parts should not be paid also.

He also drew attention to the inadequate scale of fees paid to witnesses, but laid emphasis on the fact that a distinction was made on the ground of colour. A coloured witness was placed on the same scale as native chiefs. A white and a coloured man might be drawing the same rate of wages, and yet, because of the difference in colour, the latter, as a witness, was paid a lower scale of fees. He (Mr. Alexander) thought it was a serious injustice, and would discourage people from coming forward to assist in the administration of justice. To base the distinction purely on colour was, he thought, indefensible.

said that he endorsed the remarks of the hon. member for Von Brandis in regard to pro Deo oases. The injustice, he thought, was great so far as the barristers were concerned, but he considered that the matter was much more serious for the person who was on trial for his life. These unfortunate individuals should be given the best legal talent that could be obtained at a reasonable fee.

said that in these cases the judge very often in practice became a most efficient advocate for the defence. What he had always felt was that it was most unfair to ask junior members of the Bar to take these cases in hand with the great responsibilities attendant thereon, unless a really adequate fee were to be paid for such work. He certainly thought that the question of fee entered into this work, and that the barrister should be paid for his professional services. He hoped the Minister in charge of the House would use his influence to see what could be done to raise the fee paid to practitioners in these cases.

said he understood that the Minister of Justice had decided to pay a reasonable fee in the case of pro Deo defences. He did not propose to go into the other matters at this stage, as they might properly be raised on the General Estimates.

The vote was agreed to.

said he would like to know how this money was going to be paid out. Was it proposed to hand over a cheque to the Victoria College for £15,000 without any particulars as to how the money was to be spent? He was sure that the Victoria College would not be able to spend the money for a year or two. Then again, he would like to know why differentiation was made between the colleges? He understood that the grants were based on the recommendations of the Commission, but he found that the South African College, although recommended for £18,000, got £3,000, while the Victoria College, which was recommended for £32,000, got £25,000. And this in face of the fact that the increase of students in the South African College had been greater than at all the other colleges of South Africa combined. He thought it was most unfair that the South African College should be treated in such a scurvy manner.

said they would like to know on what basis the grants were being made. (Hear, hear.)

asked for a statement as to what was really meant by higher education. However, he would bring the matter up on the main Estimates.

said that such a high sum had been recommended for the Victoria College because it had not received any grants previously. He would like to know whether in connection with the Grey University College an application had been made for a girls’ boarding-house.

said it was not fair to take £40,000 of the surplus and spend it on higher education while there were so many thousands of children requiring elementary education. In the Free State alone there were 15,000 children who were not receiving education. On the main Estimates £117,000 was set down for higher education. In the majority of instances the parents of children receiving higher education could afford to pay the whole of the cost.

You are wrong.

said the State paid more than the parents did for higher education. He moved the reduction of the vote of £15,000 to Victoria College by £500, and in doing so wished to enter his protest against the money being taken from the surplus for the purpose of higher education when we had so many things that we could do with it. For instance, we could allocate it to the Provincial Councils with a view to their spending it on elementary education.

called the hon. member to order and informed him that he must confine his remarks to the subject of the vote.

said if he was to understand that a matter so important to this country as elementary education could not be discussed in that House, he would move the reduction of the grant by £500, and he would move it be taken off Victoria College.

said it was unfortunate that one particular college should have been singled out—it was the very thing they were trying to avoid— and they should address themselves to the whole question of these grants to colleges. There seemed to be no method whatever at the bottom of those grants. There was no uniformity. Some were given as grants out and out, and others as loans, of which half-interest had to be paid. There seemed no method at all in the matter. They ought to know on what basis these grants were being given, and they objected to them as a whole, notwithstanding that some of the hon. members were interested in the welfare of the colleges. It was not right that the money should be granted in the way that was proposed. He thought that the matter should stand over to be dealt with in the main Estimates. He moved to eliminate the whole amount.

there upon withdrew his amendment.

said that the fact of the hon. member for Springs being ruled out of order created a difficulty. Many of them were aware that the need for primary education was far more pressing than for higher education, but he was not going to argue the point. He wanted to point out, however, that if money was to be spent in another department, which was closely connected, they should be allowed to discuss the matter. The Chairman’s ruling was that it was a matter for the Provincial Council, but the Administrator of the Province was responsible to the Governor-General-in-Council.

The vote is on higher education. They could discuss the matter when dealing with the individual amounts.

said it was not out of order to give their reasons why they objected to spend this money on higher education, when primary education was so much more in need of it.

strongly objected to the reduction of the amount; the amount had been promised, and various matters had been proceeded with. He was not saying that the method adopted was the proper way, but he did strongly object to the proposed reduction.

said that the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg had asked on what basis these grants were given. In 1911 a Commission was appointed to go into the question of grants to the different Colleges. They had to deal with two phases, past and future. With regard to the past, they made recommendations to bring this expenditure as nearly as possible on the same footing, and in the Estimates these amounts were fixed on the basis of the recommendations of the Commission. With regard to the future, that was a part of the Higher Education Bill which was before the House. The hon. member for Newlands would find, as far as the future was concerned, the Commission had recommended a general scheme, which was embodied in the Higher Education Act. In reply to the hon. member for Cape Town, who asked why only £3,000 had been granted for the S.A. College, he explained that the Government felt that it would be inadvisable at the present moment, until the matter of the University on a central site at Groote Schuur had been dealt with, to spend more money in Cape Town. They, therefore, thought that £3.000 should be given for equipment, because equipment could easily be moved, if required, later on. With regard to the £15,000 for Victoria College, that was half the amount recommended by the Commission. As to what the hon. member for Fauresmith (Mr. Wilcocks) had asked, he would find on the main Estimates a sum of £5,000 provided for the very purpose. If these institutions had to carry on their work satisfactorily, he thought that these grants should he made.

asked what would happen if the University Bill did not go through? Would the Minister do something?

said that if the University Bill did not become law, other arrangements would have to be made, and the South African College would have to be dealt with on its merits. Until the main question had been settled, it would be inadvisable to spend more money there now than appeared there.

The vote was agreed to.

On vote 26, Public debt, £10,000,

asked for some information as to why the separate items did not appear.

replied that they paid over a lump sum, because it would be inconvenient to keep accounts for every item.

The vote was passed.

said that was a large amount to deal with at that late hour, especially that of £54,321, losses on loans to wineries, and he hoped that progress would be reported.

said that some of the co-operative wineries had failed because some of the shareholders had not supported the societies, because they could obtain better prices elsewhere.

said that the Act provided in section 5 that it shall be lawful to bring all losses sustained in connection with the loans to the final charges against these loans. Therefore the losses could be wiped off without troubling Parliament.

said they were following the usual course adopted year after year. He would like to fall in with the suggestion of the hon. member that the matter stand over, but it was of importance that they get the other votes through. The affairs of the societies had been gone into by a competent Commission, and the societies had agreed to a certain course being adopted. Hon. members should not be influenced too much by the value of the assets of the societies shown. They were book value.

said that the Montagu winery was purely a private concern. According to their statement, there was a surplus, and yet the Government sold the whole thing to them, while the assets were valued at £16,000, for £5,000. He thought these matters should be looked into. He did not see why they should not be sent to the Public Accounts Committee.

moved a reduction of £1 on sub-head “c,” subsidy to ocean steamers serving the port of Durban. He said that he did this to draw attention to the influence which was being exercised by the coal combine. He hoped that the Minister of Mines would make a statement as to whether this combine was not a violation of the Post Office Act. The total output of the combined collieries last month was 163,417 tons, as compared with 8,676 tons for the collieries outside the ring. Of this 8,676 tons, 5,944 tons was produced by one colliery.

hoped the Minister would recognise that at that late hour— 11.12 p.m.—was not the proper time to discuss a very important matter like the infringement of the Post Office Act. He moved that progress be reported and leave obtained to sit again.

thought the Minister might accept the motion. He would give the Minister this assurance, that on Thursday they would give him every facility to go through the various stages of the Appropriation Bill.

said he recognised the reasonableness of the attitude of his hon. friend opposite, and he only hoped his hon. friends on the cross benches would also help them to take the Bill through its various stages without undue delay.

said the hon. members on the cross benches never dreamed of obstructing. (Laughter.)

The motion was adopted, and it was agreed to resume in committee on Thursday.