from J. Macmillan, of Durban, a member of the Corporation of Accountants, praying that the said corporation may be included in the “ Accountants’ Registration (Private) Bill ” among the societies whose members are eligible to practise under the Bill in the Union of South Africa.

from K. Stuart, F. Stapleton and J. Howe, President, Secretary and Treasurer, respectively of the Sea Point Women’s Christian Temperance Union, praying for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Veto, whereby men and women may decide by ballot on the continuance, reduction or issue of liquor licences, or for other relief.

from C. J. Coetzee and 72 others, inhabitants of the Strijdpan and Stompiesfontein Settlement in the district of Pretoria, praying for the remission of interest for the first five years on all goods and chattels received from the Government, or for other relief.

from J. Gray, of East London, a member of the Corporation of Accountants, praying that the said corporation may be included in the “ Accountants’ Registration (Private) Bill ” among the societies whose members are eligible to practise under the Bill in the Union of South Africa.

Special warrants issued by Governor-General 25th January to 24th February, 1913.

moved, as an unopposed motion: That this return, together with the return presented to the House on the 28th January, on the same subject, be referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts for consideration.

seconded.

Agreed to.

A NATAL MAGISTRATE’S COURT.

asked the Minister of Justice whether it is his intention to remove the present Magistrate’s Court from Pinetown to South Coast Junction, and, if so, what are the reasons for the proposed change?

said that there had been a considerable amount of correspondence on this matter, and as there was a diversity of opinion he had telegraphed for information, which he expected in a day or two. He would then give the hon. member a reply.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether he is aware that on the Pilgrims Rest Goldfields, mines have been closed down and employees not paid; (2) if so, what are the names of the parties concerned, the number of employees concerned, and the amount of wages unpaid; and (3) whether, in view of the disastrous and far-reaching effects of such action, both as regards the labour supply and the credit of mine owners and miners in the district, the Government will take the necessary steps to prevent a recurrence?

replied: (1) In reply to the first part of the question, it appears that during 1912 certain small mines in the Pilgrims Rest district closed down without paying their native boys. (2) The reply to the second part of the question is as follows: Doornhoek Gold Mine (Jolly), about 15 boys, 2 to 3 months’ wages due; Comberis Syndicate (W. Mc Lachlan), 50 boys, 8 months’ wages due; Betty Langriff Syndicate (C. W. R. Scott), 45 boys, 12 months’ wages due; Haugregil Syndicate (Ellis), 30 boys, 2 to 3 months’ wages due; Pilgrims Creek (Bleloch), 160 boys, 1 to 2 months’ wages due. (3) The bad effect of the practice referred to is recognised by the Government, and the matter is receiving my attention, arid I am approaching the Native Affairs Department on the subject.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware that passengers on the Welverdiend-De la Rey line of railway suffer great discomfort because the carriages are in such a bad condition that when it rains it is as wet inside them as outside; (2) whether he is aware that not a single station on the line is provided with a platform: and, if so, (3) what he intends to do to remedy this state of affairs?

replied: (1) During recent excursion season passenger traffic was so heavy that every available coach that was in running order had to be placed in traffic to cope with the pressure. The Administration, while recognising that the condition of several coaches on this and other branch lines during the holiday season was not all that could be desired from a passenger’s point of view, had to do its best to meet the situation with the rolling stock at its disposal. (2) No; stations on this line are provided with low level platforms as on other similar lines. (3) (a) The carriages complained of have been sent to the workshops and been replaced by stock in good condition. (b) Generally speaking, facilities at stations on this line are in keeping with traffic dealt with.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is in a position to lay the report upon the table which was called for by a resolution of this House adopted on the 16th April, 1912, referring a petition from J. H. Grobler and 1,799 others, inhabitants of the towns and districts of Jansenville, Pearston, and Somerset East, praying for railway connection between Klipplaat and Somerset East, to the Government for inquiry and report: and (2) whether, in case the report is not ready, he will, pending its completion and production to the House, state whether it is his intention to include the line for linking up the South Coast railway in his railway proposals to be submitted to the House during the present session?

replied: (1) The report in question was laid upon the Table of the House on the 24th April, 1912. (2) The Government’s new construction proposals for this season are still under consideration, and it is impossible to say at this stage which lines will be included therein.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) What number of convicts have during the past twelve months been hired out to any gold or diamond mining company, and at what average payment to the Government per head; (2) are convicts ever rewarded, at the expiration of sentence for finding diamonds, and, if so, what is the largest sum ever paid to a convict for such service; and (3) is it the intention of the Government to continue the supply of convict labour to rich and dividend paying mines?

replied: (1) The number of convicts hired out to gold and diamond mining companies during 1912, considered as to the annual aggregate of day units, was: From Cinderella Prison, East Rand, 157,551 units; from Boksburg Gaol, 10,182 units; from Germiston Gaol, 13,475 units. The average payment received for these was 1s. 4¼d. per unit. From Krugersdorp Gaol 13,524 units were hired out at just over 1s. per unit average. At De Beers Prison the total of units was 383,031. The payment received from De Beers Mines was 2d. a unit, and De Beers, in addition, paid the total cost of the running of the prison, amounting to about £60,000 for the year. (2) Convicts in the De Beers Mines are credited with a maximum reward of 6d per carat to be paid on release for diamonds found by them in accordance with a practice which has existed for twenty-five years The Government has limited the highest payment to one recipient to £15. Only two convicts have been lucky enough to receive this in the course of nine years. The average drawn by convicts on release is 6s. 9d. Many convicts have nothing to their credit. (3) The Government follows the principles prescribed by Parliament in the Prisons Act in the disposition of convict labour and has no concern with the fact whether the hirer is a dividend paying mining company or not.

asked the Minister of Defence: (1) How many officials and officers have been appointed in the Department of Defence under the Defence Act; (2) how many of them were taken from the former Departments of Defence of the late Colonies; (3) how many from other departments; (4) how many were new appointments; and (5) how many in these three classes have a knowledge of both official languages?

replied: The figures are as follows: (1) 201 officers and officials, not including about 50 drill instructors of the permanent subordinate staff of the Militia and Volunteers. (2) 100. (3) 27. (4) 74. (5) Under (2), 38; under (3), 25; under (4), 60. A large percentage of the 50 drill instructors already mentioned will be qualified to instruct in both official languages upon transfer to the new Permanent Staff on the 1st July, 1913. Before very long, the very great majority of members of both the commissioned and non-commissioned ranks of the Permanent Instructional Staff will be so qualified.

asked the Minister of Lands: Whether, in view of the scarcity of farm labour in the Clanwilliam and adjoining districts and the fact that the Olifants River Irrigation Works are being commenced and will take some years to complete and that the farmers cannot compete with the Government either as regards the rate of pay or hours of labour for such labourers, he will take steps to prevent the employment of local labour and cause the work to be carried, out by labour obtained elsewhere?

said: The Irrigation Works on the Olifants River in the Clanwilliam and Van Rhynsdorp districts are being constructed on behalf of a large number of farmers resident in these districts. To a considerable extent the Irrigation Board representing these farmers will take part in the construction of the works, and a considerable amount will also be given out on contract. The local labour is very deficient in quantity and efficiency and the greater part of it will have to be imported from outside districts, but no guarantee can be given that local labour will not be utilised.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether he is prepared to include in his railway programme, which in to be submitted to the House during the present session, the extension of the Grootevlei-Koolmijn railway to a point on the Bethlehem-Villiers line, as requested by the signatories to the three petitions, presented to this House on the 19th instant?

replied: The Government is not in a position to say at this stage which lines will be included in the new construction programme to be presented to Parliament this session, the details of which are still under consideration.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether it is a fact that in 1908 certain officers of the Cape Police had to revert to junior rank with the promise that these officers would be reinstated as opportunity occurred; (2) whether these officers will suffer in seniority owing to the amalgamation of the police forces, and whether officers with distinguished records will now be junior to others who have been promoted in other police forces of the Union since the former had to revert; and (3) if so, whether the Government will put right this injustice?

replied to the first part of the question in the affirmative. The answer to the second and third parts of the question was that the officers in question were given the option either to be retrenched or to revert to lesser ranks, and they accepted the latter alternative. The whole period of service in the particular ranks before reversion and after reinstatement would be considered for purposes of seniority.

A NATIVE CLERGYMAN’S PASS.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) Whether it is correct that the Rev. J. L. Dube, principal of the Ohlanga Industrial Institution at Phoenix. Natal, when travelling by rail at the end of last month in order to attend the Inter-State Native College Convention at Bloemfontein, was prevented at Reenen, Orange Free State, by a police officer from proceeding on his journey, because he had not a pass, although he had his Natal exemption certificate in possession and produced it; and (2) if so, whether he will take steps to prevent such acts of injustice in the future?

(1) Yes. Unfortunately for the Rev. Dube, his Natal exemption certificate, which he is stated to have produced, was not the pass within the meaning of the Orange Free State pass law, which by law he was required to produce. As soon as the facts became known instructions were given that Mr. Dube should at once be allowed to proceed on his journey. (2) The police officer having acted in accordance with the law, there was no act of illegality. I am, however, prepared to issue instructions which will ensure that a wise discretion is exercised by police officials in applying pass law’s to natives who in one or other Province of the Union are exempted from the operation of such laws. (Cheers.)

asked the Minister of Justice if, and at what local firm the following purchases were made by the Police Department: In May, 1912, buckskins; in July, 1912, 50 to 100 pairs of boots; in August, 1912. Bed ford cord; and in January, 1913, 800 yards khaki serge?

replied: Six buckskins were purchased from J. W. Jagger and Co., Cape Town, in May, 1912. Fifty pairs of black boots were purchased from Eaton Robins and Co., Cape Town, April 1912, and 180 pairs from James Sanderson and Co., Woodstock, in July, 1912. Eighty-eight and three-quarter yards Bedford cord from J. W. Jagger and Co., in August, 1912. No local purchase of khaki serge was made during January, 1913, or thereabouts. Buckskins and Bedford cord were purchased for local making up of breeches as police stock was exhausted and garments on indent considerably delayed. The boots were purchased to meet issues due to the Urban Police, Cape Town, there being no stock available, owing to a long delay in supply from England. Tender Board regulations were complied with for each purchase.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether his attention had been drawn to the fact that the accommodation at the Post and Telegraph Office at Lichtenburg is insufficient for the needs of the officials and the public; and, if so. (2) whether he intends to have a new post and telegraph office erected?

replied:—My attention has been drawn to the somewhat cramped accommodation at the Lichtenburg Post Office. Depart mental arrangements are, however, being made which will alter the circulation and distribution of mails within the Lichtenburg Division in consequence of the extension of the railway to De la Rey. It is considered, when these changes have been made that it will be possible to re-arrange the internal fittings of the post office at Lichtenburg in such a manner as to secure more room for the public while not hampering the staff of the office in the performance of their duties. It is not contemplated at the present time to erect a new building for Post and Telegraph purposes.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) What is the position of temporary clerks in the Civil Service in the case of (a) those who joined before Union, but could not be put on the fixed establishment owing to their not having passed the Civil Service examination, no such examination being held, and (b) those who joined subsequent to the establishment of Union, but could not be put on the fixed establishment for the same reason; (2) will these members of the service be required to pass the Civil Service examination prescribed in the “Union Gazette” of the 14th February, 1913, notwithstanding the fact that some of them have had four to five years’ service; and (3) if these men are put on the permanent establishment without Being required to pass the Civil Service examination, are they eligible as candidates for the Civil Service Law Examination?

said: The cases of all officers who were employed in temporary capacities prior to the 1st August, 1912, are governed by sub-section (5) of section 4 of the Public Service and Pensions Act of 1912, from which the hon. member will see that, subject to a recommendation by the Commission, any such temporary officers can be appointed to the regular establishment without examination. No disability in respect of the Law Examination attaches to officers so appointed

asked the Minister of Mines whether the report of the Miners’ Phthisis Board has been received, and, if so, when he will lay It on the Table of the House; and, if it has not yet been received, when he expects it will be in his hands?

replied that the report had been received, and was in the printers’ hands.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) What was the total amount of wages paid to natives recruited in Mozambique in the year ended 31st December, 1911; (2) how much of this sum was paid to them (a) in the Transvaal and (b) in Mozambique territory; and (3) whether the portion of wages due which is paid in Mozambique territory is paid direct to the native by the employer, and, if not, to whom or to what authority is such portion paid by the employer?

replied: (1) As far as can be ascertained, the total amount of wages paid to natives recruited in Mozambique during 1911 is £320,764; (2) half in each case—i.e., £160,382: (3) payment of deferred wages is made in Mozambique territory to natives on their return home by an official of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association, on behalf of the employer.

asked the Minister of Mines whether he has yet received any information of the probable date of the re-starting of the Benoni Consolidated and Apex Gold Mines?

replied that he had no further information.

asked the Minister of Mines whether he has any information in regard to the Bellevue Tins, Ltd., and, if so, whether he will state. (1) The position of the company and under what title it holds, and whether a prospectus has been issued; (2) the value of the property from a mineral point of view; (3) the amount of work which has recently been done there; and (4) the number of persons employed by the company?

replied: (1) I am informed that the first prospectus in relation to the Bellevue Tins, Ltd., which was to have been registered as a public company, was registered in the office of the Registrar of Companies on the 16th November, 1911. The prospectus was subsequently withdrawn, and another company, with practically the same objects, was registered on the 19th March, 1912, under an identical name, as a private company. The present prospectus of the private company is, it is understood, marked “private and confidential,” and as such is not a prospectus within the legal meaning of the expression. The property held by the company consists of three prospecting areas on the farm Klipplaatdrift, No. 1,527, in the Potgietersrust district of the Transvaal. The areas are held under ordinary prospecting permit, and are liable to forfeiture for non-work. (2) As regards the value of the property from a mineral point of view, at a recent inspection by the Inspector of Mines, no signs of tin, or of typical tin-bearing rock, were to be seen in the piles of samples or dumps. (3) At the time of the same inspection, it was found that no work had been done for a considerable period, and access could not be obtained to the shaft. (4) As regards the number of persons employed at the date of the inspection, there was apparently one white man and one umfaan, but the former was absent.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the Government will take into its consideration the matter of the reinstatement of the men who took part in the Natal strike of 1909 and who were not taken back into the service of the administration at the termination of the strike, so far as there may be positions available for them?

replied: Of the 2,550 men who ceased work during the strike in Natal, all were allowed to resume, with the exception of 69. When the Government removed the embargo placed on the re-engagement of these 69 men, 22 were re-engaged as new hands; of this number those who are still in the service, and who are not already getting more, have had their pay restored to what it was prior to the strike. The administration has no objection to giving employment, under existing conditions, to any of the 47 ex-strikers who have not so far been reemployed, provided suitable vacancies exist, but at this date the men could not possibly be reinstated at their old rate of pay and under the conditions which obtained at the time of the strike.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether it is a fact that the proposed Schroeders-Harburg-Noodsberg-road railway line specified in the report of the Railway Board on proposed new lines (1912). runs for 22 miles at a maximum distance of seven, and a minimum distance of five miles from an existing railway line; (2) whether the Government favours a policy of building new lines running narallel to existing railways; and (3) whether, in meeting the needs for further railway facilities in Umvoti County, the Government will take into consideration first the building of branch lines which can be utilised as links in a scheme for an alternate main line to Durban; and (4) whether the Government will give the same consideration as has been shown to Umvoti County to the needs for further railway facilities of Impendhle, Dargle, Karkloof, and other wattle-growing and timber producing neighbourhoods in Natal?

replied: (1) Yes: this is approximately correct. (2) No; not ordinarily. Cases are considered on their merits. (3) No. Government will first, recommend to Parliament the building of lines which are considered to be most essential for development purposes, and for the opening up of districts in which better means of transport are urgently required. (4) The Government has, from time to time, been petitioned to build several thousand miles of railway in different parts of the country, and has given consideration to the claims put forward by many districts. The lines which the Government may determine to recommend are not by any means the only lines required. The construction of new railways is necessarily limited by financial considerations, so that certain lines have to be selected, and the Government’s programme of new construction embodies provision for the construction of lines in districts regarded as being most urgently in need of rail communication.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What number of meetings have been held by the Railway Board for the, twelve months ended December 31, 1912; (2) what number of meetings were attended during the above period by each Commissioner; (3) what number of inspections have been made by the board during the above-mentioned period; (4) what number of inspections were made during the above-mentioned period by each Commissioner (5) for what periods during the twelve months ended December 31, 1912, were individual members of the Railway Board absent, other than on duty, from the headquarters of the Railway Administration; (6) what has been the cost to the country of each Commissioner for the twelve months ended December 31. 1912, including salary, travelling allowance, and transport, calculated at current railway rates; (7) what has been the gross cost to the country for the year ended December 31, 1912, of the Railway Board: and (8) what railway lines, have been proposed by the Railway Board since its inception and what number have been rejected by the Government?

said he would require time to furnish the answers:

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he has received any reply to the communication which he informed the House last session he had made to the British Board of Trade with reference to sea-going engineers’ certificates; (2) what is the nature of the reply; and (3) is it the intention of the Government to make arrangements for the examination and certification of South African seagoing engineers?

replied: (1) Yes. (2) The Board of Trade has observed that no legislation at present exists in the Union authorising the issue of such certificates, and has pointed out that, even after such legislation is passed, an Order-in-Council under the Imperial Shipping Act, 1894, will be required before such certificates can be accepted as valid in the United Kingdom. Without this validity, employment on British ships travelling to and from England would be impossible. Owners and masters would not employ locally certificated men owing to the necessity of having Board of Trade approved certificated men. The Order-in-Council validating the local certificates would not be issued unless the regulations made under a Union Act were acceptable to the Board of Trade. (3) The Government could not do anything in this matter on account of the absence of legislation, and, as at present indicated, there seems to be no particular urgency in the matter.

asked the Minister of the Interior what provision is made on Robben Island for the spiritual needs of (a) the lepers belonging to different churches; and (b) the officials and their families belonging to different churches?

replied: There are three resident clergymen—two Church of England and one Dutch Reformed Church. One of the former lives in the leper compound, and devotes all his energies to ministering to the spiritual needs of the patients belonging to the Anglican Church. The second ministers to the needs of the officials, convicts, and lunatics, and belongs to the Anglican Church. The Dutch Reformed clergyman ministers to the needs of the patients belonging to the Dutch Reformed Church and to Lutherans, Wesleyans, and other non-conformist sects. He also holds services in the village for those officials and their families holding similar views. There is a Roman Catholic priest who visits and remains over for some days once a month. Frequent visits are also made by missionaries from other denominations. The spiritual needs of all concerned appear to be amply provided for. The three resident clergy and visiting Roman Catholic priest” are paid by Government.

was down to ask: (1) How many “police dogs” have been imported into the Union since 31st May, 1910; (2) at what cost; (3) how many of these dogs are still alive; (4) what has been the total outlay in connection with their up-keep and care; (5) how many men are in charge of the dogs, viz., (a) whites, (b) coloured, and (c) natives; (6) how many criminals have been tracked by them (7) how many convictions have followed thereon; and (8) are these dogs fulfilling the purpose for which they have been imported and, if not, should they not be disposed of?

said he had been furnished with the information.

asked the Minister of Lands in connection, with the Kopjes Irrigation Works: (1) How many applications for blocks or lots of ground have been received since the completion of the dam; (2) how many families have been settled there since the above date, and how many among them were previously labourers on the dam; and (3) how many irrigable blocks or lots of ground are still available?

replied: 141; (2) (a) 74 holdings have been allotted, of which 61 are to married men with families and 13 to single men (b) 34: (3) 44 holdings are still available for allotment, of which 16 are, at the present time, gazetted for disposal. The balance will be advertised shortly. For the information of the hon. member, I would mention that the above particulars relate only to plots which have been surveyed, and that further plots will be available as the works proceed. Although the dam is completed, the canals are not yet finished or even set off in certain places. When the works are completed and the plots surveyed, it is expected that the settlement will accommodate 250 settlers.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether he is aware that the Van Ryn Deep and Geduld Mines on the East Rand are causing miners to remain underground for excessive periods of time, varying from 10 to 16 hours daily, and, if so, what action he proposes to take; (2) if it is a fact that on at least one of these mines two skipmen only are employed per shaft per day, working twelve hours each, and men and materials are being hauled on Sundays without a skipman being on duty, such treatment does not constitute a contravention of the Mines and Works Act, 1911; and (3) does the Mines Department intend to proceed against the owners or management?

asked that the question be allowed to stand over pending inquiries.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: Whether the Government has received from the Railway Administration any report or any requisition from railway employees with regard to any discontent existing in the railway service, and, if so, whether it is the intention of the Government to proceed under section 21 of the Railways and Harbours Service Act of 1912?

replied: No report has been received by the Government from the Administration, which under existing circumstances has not felt justified in making any such report. The main difficulty has arisen from the fact that while resolutions have been passed by meetings organised by various societies and not confined to railway servants, and while representations have been made to myself and to the Administration by the organisations referred to, no direct complaints have been made by the railway servants themselves, with two exceptions. Another outstanding difficulty has been due to the vague and general nature of even such representations as have been made with regard to the New Regulations, which have hitherto been objected to en bloc although they constitute a code embracing the whole of the activities of the service. No section of the staff has presented any requisition to the Government in terms of section 21 of the Railways and Harbours Service Act. The organisation referred to have been informed that the Administration is always ready to consider any representations of a specific character made by its servants in respect of matters in which they feel they have a grievance, and it has been pointed out that adequate facilities exist for the submission of any representations they desire to make. Every effort has been made to deal with, and, if possible, remove any legitimate grievances that may be established. The Administration recognises the extreme difficulty of obviating all error in assimilating such a variety of staff conditions as existed in the Provincial Administrations, and if any section or any individual member of the staff will utilise the proper channels of representation at its or his disposal and a case is made out it will be sympathetically considered and every effort will be made to remove any legitimate grievances that may be established. To illustrate the genuineness of the Administration’s desire to deal fairly with the men when their grievances are brought properly to its notice, I may mention that a deputation of the running staff has already waited upon the general manager and drawn his attention to certain conditions which they consider impose hardship upon their section, and the general manager hopes to meet all the points raised by the deputation. Every officer in the service has been instructed to give the men every facility to submit any complaint in regard to any condition which they consider operates unfairly upon them.

asked whether the Government had any intention of amending the Act so as to bring the method of making representations—

That is a separate question.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) If he is aware of the serious inconvenience and danger to the travelling public which exists at Elsie’s River Halt Station by having no platform; and (2) whether the Government intends erecting a platform, and, if so, when?

replied: The Administration is aware that certain inconvenience has been occasioned at Elsie’s River Halt through the absence of platforms, and on the passing of the Capital and Betterment Works Estimates, which will shortly be submitted to the House, consideration will be given to the question of providing platforms at this place.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the Government will make provision on the Estimates for the ensuing financial year for the necessary funds for the completion of the Bethlehem-Villiers railway line, sanctioned by Act No. 36 of 1909 (Orange River Colony)?

replied: The Government is not in a position to say at this stage which lines will be included in the new construction programme to be presented to Parliament this session, the details of which are still under consideration.

asked the Minister of Agriculture:—(1) Whether he is aware that during the recent drought in the district of Elliot the public road across the farm Mooresvale were closed for the movement of clean sheep because the farm was under quarantine on account of scab; and, if so, (2) whether those roads were closed by his instructions and whether he is aware that severe losses and great inconvenience were thereby caused to certain sheep farmers; and (3) why that exceptional step was taken, and whether he will prevent a similar course being followed in the future?

requested that the question be postponed.

asked the Minister of Defence whether, in terms of the “Regulations for the Permanent Force (South African Mounted Riflemen), Part 2 Engagement (Natives),” he intends engaging natives in the permanent force in all the Provinces, and whether this is necessary owing to shortage of Europeans?

replied: There is no intention of engaging natives in any Province for the Permanent Force (South African Mounted. Riflemen), except those that are required (a) as artillery drivers, (b) to carry on, in districts allotted to be policed by the South African Mounted Riflemen, the native police work which is now being done, and always has been done, by natives

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) Whether he is aware that there is great dissatisfaction, especially in the country districts, on account of the faulty way in which voters’ lists have in the past been compiled; and, if so, (2) whether he is prepared to give instructions that a sufficient number of clerks should be appointed, especially in the large electoral divisions, for carrying out the work in order that the voters’ lists may be as complete as possible?

replied: I am unaware that there was any dissatisfaction at the manner in which the Voters’ Lists were prepared on the occasion of the last registration, or that the lists were in any way defective; and I am of opinion that if the registration officers carry out their instructions and make timely arrangements for the duties which fall upon them, there is no need to provide them with extra clerical assistance.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has received a petition for telephonic communication between Brakspruit (Zwartruggens) and Lindleyspoort; and, if so, what has the Department decided; and if no decision has been arrived at, whether he will take the matter into consideration soon?

replied: An application has been received for the extension of telephone facilities from Brakspruit to Lindleyspoort and Brakkloof. Estimates of that cost of the telephone line and the probable revenue to be derived therefrom are being obtained, and when these come to hand the matter will be taken into further consideration.

asked the Minister of Finance whether the Government intends to re-open the mint at Pretoria, and if so, when; and if not, whether it will seriously consider the desirability of doing so?

replied: The proposition of re-establishing a mint in Pretoria is not so simple as it appears to be, as has been explained on several occasions. If the Government decided to resume minting operations in Pretoria a heavy obligation would have to be undertaken on account of capital expenditure, owing to the old mint buildings being entirely unsuitable for present day minting requirements, and large expenditure would also be entailed in the purchase and erection of the necessary machinery and appliances. The Government does not see any solid grounds for expecting a remunerative return on such capital expenditure, owing to the inherent difficulties connected with minting, and, therefore, at the present time it does not intend reopening the mint at Pretoria. With regard to the last part of the question, I must point out that the profitable part of minting is the manufacture of token coins. South Africa would not be permitted to manufacture British silver or bronze, and would have to confine its attention, in so far as British currency is concerned, to minting gold, which would return no profit to the Union. There is, of course, the alternative of issuing a token currency in the Union as in Australia, the profit on which would accrue to the Union. This course, however, is beset with many risks and difficulties, as was pointed out by my predecessor last year. My personal opinion, is that when conditions become more favourable we shall resume minting operations in South Africa, but, for the present, I consider it much the more prudent course to allow matters to remain as they are.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether there is a chemical laboratory in connection with the Agricultural Department at Bloemfontein; (2) whether farmers-from the country districts have the right to send thither soil and water which are apparently unsuitable for agricultural purposes for analysis in order to ascertain whether the fault lies with the soil or with the water; and (3) whether these formers, from the country districts must pay the expenses in connection with such analysis?

replied: (1) There is not now, nor has there ever been a chemical laboratory in connection with the Department of Agriculture at Bloemfontein. (2) Analyses of soils and waters are made for farmers in the laboratories of the Department of the Interior in the same manner as before Union. (3) Fees are charged for analysis, the scale being the same as before Union. I may add that as soon as the Agricultural School and Experiment Station at The Glen are in working order, I hope to be able to afford still better facilities to farmers in the Orange Free State to obtain analyses of soils and water or other expert advice.

asked the Minister of the Interior if it is the intention of the Government to take steps to provide for the compilation and publication of a Civil Service List for the Union similar to that issued under the authority of the late Cape Government?

The MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (for the Minister of the Interior) replied: As the hon. member is doubtless aware, the duty of the preparation of a Public Service List is placed on the Public Service. Commission under the provisions of paragraph (c) of section 2 of Act No. 29 of 1912. The actual form in which the list should be published is now under consideration, and it is likely that the first issue of the list will appear this year. It was deemed inadvisable to make any move in the direction of preparing the list until the reorganisation of the Public Service had been completed, and departments had settled down to the new order of things consequent on Union.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether reduced fares have been granted to students intending to join in the celebration of the establishment of equality for the two official languages of the Union; whether this has been done under the ordinary regulations allowing reduced fares for large numbers of persons travelling together; whether the request now granted differs from the request refused on September 12 last, and, if so, how; and, if not, why it was then refused, and is now granted?

replied: Reduced fares have been granted to certain persons who have applied for them in connection with a proposed language celebration in Cape Town. Similar reductions would be granted to any class of persons who fulfil the terms of the railway regulation. The request preferred in the present case does not differ materially from that made in September last, but the reason why it was refused in September is that on the previous occasion there was no regulation under which provision was made for such a case, and I did not feel justified under the circumstances in acting contrary to the regulations. I have, however, stated publicly’ my view that in matters of traffic the Railway Administration should be entirely blind to politics and everything else but business, and accordingly a regulation has recently been framed under which tickets at reduced fares on a sliding scale will be issued by special trains to any and all sections of the public guaranteeing a certain number of passengers with a minimum of 200, irrespective of the object for which the special trains are required to be run, and the present application has been acceded to under this regulation.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in accordance with the notice in the “Union Gazette” of the 18th inst, in regard to simultaneous dinning, scab-inspectors will be authorised to issue permits for the removal of slaughter-sheep from a district to which simultaneous dipping is not applicable, provided that scab-inspectors declare the said slaughter-sheep to be clean.

asked the hon. member to allow the question to stand over for a few days.

asked whether the return laid on the table of the House relating to land acquired by natives in the Transvaal was correct as far as regarded the farms Mara and Buisplaats.

requested that the matter be allowed to stand over.

moved that Mr. Nathan be a member of the Select Committee on Garnisheeing Wages.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the Minister of Lands be discharged from further service on the Select Committee on the Carnarvon Outer Commonage Settlement Bill and that the mover be appointed in his stead.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the Government be requested to take into consideration the desirability of proclaiming the magisterial division of De Aar a fiscal division. He referred to the history of the district, and held that people in the division referred to had just cause for grievances. The division partly fell under the districts of Hanover, Philipstown and Britstown. This caused considerable difficulties. De Aar was a magisterial seat, and had great prospects. It was of the utmost importance for this centrally situated place to be a separate fiscal division, so that the people could pay their taxes there and devote them to their own roads. He held that the expense involved by the motion would be very slight and urged that the Minister should allow the Resident Magistrate to do the necessary work of a Civil Commissioner. He hoped the Government would pay serious attention to his motion, and would give effect to it.

seconded.

said the Government had no objection to the motion, but he could not say whether it would go any further than being considered, as he feared the expense would be very considerable. He could not promise anything.

spoke in support of the motion, and urged that the expense involved would be very small. The costs would for the most part be paid by the local inhabitants, the majority of whom were in favour of local government. If the magistrate were not appointed Civil Commissioner, then he dared not act as chairman of the Divisional Council. Every magistrate should have that right. De Aar was not the only place which wanted local government Many school districts wanted to have their own School Boards in order to manage their own affairs. Others wanted to have their own Divisional Councils. He hoped the Minister would do more than merely consider the motion.

said he was pleased to hear the speech of the hon. member, because it showed that the people had an attachment for local government, which only became true local government when they had small localities with the same wants and the residents of which knew each other. His hon. friend must not be too hard on the Minister, who was considering a great many things. (Laughter.) There was a great deal of difficulty in making these changes while the question of the financial relations was hung up. It was quite evident it they were going to stereotype the Provincial system that a great blow would be struck at the Divisional Councils. The whole thing should be considered by the proposed Commission on Financial Relations. The Divisional Councils had become rather too small for certain duties which Divisional Councils had to perform. When they had a large body they were able to entrust more functions to it than they could to a small body. The question, he was afraid, could not properly be solved until there was a Commission which would go into the whole question of local government. Hon. members who came from countries where there was no local government would be very slow in giving it up if once they got it. He hoped the Cape would long adhere to its Divisional Council system, although it might be modified afterwards.

The motion was agreed to.

moved: That in the opinion of this House the contract existing between the Wit-watersrand Native Labour Association and the Government of Mozambique for the payment in Mozambique of part of the wages of natives recruited in that territory is detrimental to the interest of the people of South Africa, and should be vetoed by the Government. The mover said the Johannesburg Town Council had unanimously passed a resolution disapproving of this new arrangement, the result of which was that large sums of money were being sent over the border. This was detrimental to the interests of the Union. The pinch was first felt by those interested in the Kafir trade, while the wholesalers and the Railways and Customs would also suffer. Further, every step which diminished the activities of any industrial section reacted on the farming population, so that they might take it as common cause that the new contract was detrimental to all their interests. The question was: “Was more money going to be taken out of the country under this new arrangement?” Most undoubtedly. He wished to remove any misapprehension induced by the reply of the Minister of Native Affairs, who had mentioned that this system of paying half-wages was being carried out at present. That was only partly true, and partly very untrue indeed. The fact of the matter was that of these 90,000 natives recruited on the East Coast, only a small proportion had had half their wages paid in their own country, but the remainder had hitherto been wholly paid in the Transvaal. The president of the Rand Chamber of Mines spoke of a gang of 454 boys taking away with them from the Transvaal an average of £14 a-piece, and another batch of 1,600 boys taking with them an average of £8 a-piece. The Portuguese official estimate was £12 10s. each; but on the other hand, some Mozambique authorities estimated it as low as £3 a-piece. It was contended that this new arrangement would make no difference in the amount of wages leaving the country, because it was said that under this new arrangement 9d. a shift would be paid in the Mozambique territory, making £11 15s. a year, and it was asked that, as they now took away £12 10s. a year, what was the difference? The answer was that the boy who saw no reason why he should not spend his wages in his own way would receive while he was in the Transvaal only a half his earnings. Taking 80,000 as the number of boys who came south of latitude 22, and adopting the Portuguese estimate, they found that the sum of one million sterling would be sent out of the Union without any benefit whatever being conferred upon the country. The hon. member then read an extract from the “Mozambique Gazette,” showing that pressure had been brought to bear to obtain this new arrangement, in order that more trade might be done in the Portuguese territory. It was perfectly clear that the Portuguese looked upon the new contract as a means of transferring commercial activity from the Union to their side. Another provision that the House should regard with caution was the extension of the terms of contract from 12 to 18 months. To allow the extension of these contracts would constitute a grave scandal. It should not be sanctioned. The extension of the contracts meant that employers would be less dependent than ever on the white citizen of the Union. Five years ago, he pointed out, there were 1,900 machine drills at work, and 2,230 machine miners were employed. To-day, though there were 4,900 drills at work, there were fewer machinemen, proportionately, than was the case five years ago. It was a matter of great public importance, and if it had not been for a Johannesburg paper, they would not have known much about the change that had taken place. He went on to refer to a speech of the president of the Witwatersrand Native Labour Association, who said that certain unpublished portions of the memo, were not of public interest. He (the speaker) said that these portions were of the greatest interest, and should be placed on the Table of the House.

Having referred to the provisions of the Convention of 1909, Mr. Creswell said that the operations of the W.N.L.A., which was a private company and a monopoly carefully guarded by the Government, were entirely dependent upon the Government, and the Government had the power of stopping or limiting the recruiting at any time according to its own sweet will. There was not one line in the Convention which gave the Portuguese any right to expect that they would recruit one single native if they did not desire to do so. Mr. Creswell went on to say that he Minister had stated that there had been no consultation with the Government, while the president of the Chamber of Mines said: “Under these circumstances the Union Government was approached in the latter part of 1911, and we were told that the deferred pay question would be settled by the W.N.L.A.” If that were not “consultation,” if the Government were not responsible for this matter, he, for one, could not understand his own language. He contended that Parliament and the country when they asked for information had a right to expect that that information would be correct, and that it would not be so seriously wide of the truth as the answer which the Minister gave him the other day. (Hear, hear.) It was the feeling of a large number of members of that House that the Ministerial answers to questions were rather an object lesson in how to evade giving information than in how to impart information. (Hear, hear.) In this instance the House was entitled to a very clear explanation from the Minister as to how this error arose. He would like to know very explicitly who was the Minister who gave consent, and under what circumstances he did give consent? He thought he was entitled to ask that the Minister would have all the papers in connection with this matter laid on the Table of the House. There was clear power given to the Government to refuse to issue licences until this company cancelled the contract. This new contract could not be carried out legally without the Minister giving his consent. The whole matter was one of very great importance, because it meant that close upon £1,200,000 out of our gold output went away out of this country without the people in this country getting any benefit whatever from it. They had also to add to that the indirect loss to be activities of this country which the expenditure of that money involved. Furthermore they had to remember that they placed in pawn for this labour their power of freedom to develop the trade routes within the Union as suited the people of the Union best. (Hear, hear.)

The Old Man of the Sea we had to bear on our shoulders was getting pretty heavy, and it was to get rid of him that the House should tell the Government that it should veto the arrangement. It was the duty of the Government to put a stop to any extension of the evil resulting from the system. He urged the Government not to be frightened by tales of terrible troubles that would ensue. Let the Government take the matter up with a firm hand, remembering that they were responsible not to the wealthy and influential people, but to the great mass of small men who depended on the industries being carried on under conditions which suited this country. It was a mistake to regard labour as an external matter to be bought from outside. We must try to base our prosperity on our own activities, and to see that every man, as far as possible, reaped the reward of his own labour, but the present was a system of quasi-slavery.

seconded the motion.

spoke in support of the motion, and said he could agree with the Labour members as to the importance of the matter. He could not always go quite as far as the hon. member for Jeppe (Mr. Creswell) had done, but he was in accord with him that the present question required careful consideration. The public on the Witwatersrand ought to be protected. He wished hon. members especially to look at the case of the dealers who swelled the Treasury funds annually by paying considerable amounts in licences. It was not right that the present conditions should be allowed to continue. There were many people who earned their money through other sources than the mining industry. It was said that the Portuguese Government would not allow the natives from their territory to spend on the Rand what they earned there, and that was a totally wrong view, and it was a wrong thing to make such a contract with a foreign country. If the Government could do nothing at present they should make some provision under a new law, and they should show their readiness to do something. In conclusion, Mr. Geldenhuys said he wished the mining industry to flourish, but at the same time he did not wish the rest of the people who were not dependent on the gold mining industry to suffer. The people of the Rand were patient, especially in regard to taxation, but they were not prepared to allow this present state of affairs to continue, and he could assure the Labour members of his support if they brought more matters of this kind before the House.

said he hoped the Minister would not accept the motion, which was a very bad one, and he was astonished that a member of the Labour Party should bring it forward. The motion would be detrimental to the Union. There never was a greater fallacy than that a man did a country an injury if he did not spend the whole of his earnings in the country in which he obtained them. The same proposal had been urged by the traders on the Rand with reference to the natives from the Transkei who went to work on the Rand mines and remitted money to their homes. It was an extraordinary proposition that these natives should spend the whole of their earnings on the Rand. Surely the million and a half of wages that these men took away with them represented the gold they had got out of the earth. (Cheers.) Surely they left the gold they had extracted behind them, and if they had not worked on the Rand it was reasonable to suppose that the gold obtained through their efforts would still be lying underground. The House was justified in believing that a civilised Government, such as the Portuguese Government, insisted on this condition of deferred payment of wages on reasonable grounds, and for the protection of their own people. The hon. member had complained that these natives eventually became skilled men during the 18 months they were on the mines. Well, he said more power to their elbows. The world was a big place, and the world was open for one man as well as another. He hoped the House would not accept the motion.

said that if the papers were called for he would not have the slightest objection to laying them on the table. His hon. friend had spoken on the assumption that there was something nefarious or improper about the matter. For instance, he spoke about replies he (the speaker) had given as though he had deliberately misled. He (the speaker) gave the answers, and as far as he knew these answers were correct. He did not want to shirk any responsibility, but he would like to tell the House that this matter began before he came into office. He would give the House reasons why he could not accept the motion proposed by the hon. member for Jeppe. He had simply discharged his duty to the best of his ability, and in, as he thought, the best interests of the public. He thought they could discuss the matter without the insinuation that there were improper motives, and he thought that the hon. member’s real reason for bringing this matter forward came out in his peroration. He appealed to the farmers for support, and wound up by giving the real reason, which was that the importation of natives from outside the border should be stopped. He hardly touched upon any other point of the question. He would like to say at this point that he hoped before long arrangements would be made so that it would not be necessary for them to import their natives from outside the Union. He would take a great deal from his hon. friend, but he would not take his law. He went through all the legislation that had been quoted, and in his own opinion the Government had no legal rights to stop them— they were acting within their legal rights. He consulted the law adviser on three occasions, and on each occasion he was of opinion that they had no legal right to interfere. As to these natives being detrimental to the interests of other people, he agreed with what had been said by the hon. member for Queen’s Town. These men carried away a million—he would say that the amount was grossly exaggerated —but they left a great deal more.

: Grossly exaggerated?

What?

The amount.

said that the hon. member went on the assumption that it was a case of eighty or ninety thousand natives a year. But they did not get anything like the amount that was quoted. He was told that the figures he gave were absolutely correct, and applied to the whole of the Portuguese territory. The principle had been in force for years.

was understood to ask whether the Minister was referring to Mozambique or native recruiting in the Provinces.

Natives recruited in Portuguese territory.

You are quite wrong.

I referred to the whole of the Portuguese territory.

You are quite wrong.

I say these figures refer to the whole of the Portuguese territory.

Annually?

said that though it had been modified from time to time, the principle had been going on for years.

Tropical natives?

Yes.

South of—

I am not talking of one portion.

: Oh!

asked whether these natives were to be prevented from sending anything to the people they left behind them. Were they to be so heartless as to take away all these men earned? When coloured men from Stellenbosch went to German South-West Africa, the German authorities did not prevent them from sending money to their families. He would like to know what would happen if men from England were prevented from sending money to their families. Did they think that men were going to work and allow their families to starve? It was a pity some of the men employed in the Transvaal did not send a little more of their money home. Any attempt to prevent—

Who suggested if?

If you don’t mean that these men should spend their money in the Transvaal, what is the object of your motion?

Hear, hear.

said he was glad to say that the hon. member for Jeppe did not state the general view that was taken in Johannesburg. There was the Chamber of Commerce.

Who are they?

The Town Council.

said he supposed that the Chamber of Commerce of Johannesburg was quite as competent to express an opinion as anybody else. That was the opinion of the Chamber of Commerce, who, he ventured to say, were as much interested in the matter, pecuniarily and otherwise, as the men whom the hon. gentleman represented. And he ventured to think that the commercial community of Johannesburg had some regard for those who laboured on the mines and those who were dependent upon them; and they recognised the practical inhumanity of preventing them from sending their earnings to support those whom they had left behind. Or, if it was to prevent the natives from being recruited in Portuguese territory, that he could understand; but let them be straightforward and say that that was the object of the motion

For those reasons he could not accept the amendment to the proposal, and he hoped it would be rejected by a large majority. He did not intend to say that the Government could not exercise a good deal of influence with the Labour Association. He thought they could; but if he had the power to stop these men sending a portion of their wages to their families he would not do it, and therefore, the question did not arise whether they had the legal power or not. If the principle was that anything that was earned in Johannesburg should be spent there, he did not see why it should not also apply to the natives in the Transkei and Natal.

said he would have liked the Minister to have explained to the House more fully than he did what was the exact change being introduced. He told them that there was no departure from the principle, and that that principle had been recognised sortie years ago; but what he would like to know from the Minister was, what is the exact extent of the change that is taking place, and what exactly was going to be done with the deferred pay of these natives? That, he thought, was a matter that the House should know more about before it voted. The Minister tried to turn the force of the attack made by the hon. member for Jeppe, by representing it as a proposal to stop the natives from remitting money to the places from which they came. Nothing of the sort was suggested. It was very easy to say that it was an excellent thing that the natives should be allowed to send money to their relatives and dependents in other parts of the country. Well and good. And natives did remit large sums to their families in other parts of the country; but that was a very different thing from the employer saying: “You shall work for me for 12 months on half pay, and I will keep that pay until you have worked for me for another six months." (Cheers.) That was what he understood of the new contract from the hon. Minister’s explanation.

: A kind of deferred rebate.

Yes. Continuing, he said it seemed to him that this was a very serious thing. The money was not remitted to the native’s family, but remained in the pocket of his employer. Well, surely the House was not to be put off with an answer such as was given by the Minister. He regretted that in the two speeches that had been made supporting the motion that the matter had been made to appear as solely of importance to the Europeans in Johannesburg. He did not approach it from that point of view at all. The House should approach it from the point of view of the native Who was going to be responsible for this money, and who would see that it was ever handed over to the native?

That position existed before.

Yes., but I would point out that where the pay has been deferred before the native came from British Territory.

No, from Portuguese territory also—long before Crown Colony Government was granted.

resuming, said he wanted to point out to the House that this was a matter of importance. It came to the notice of a Committee last year that very large sums of money were paid over annually by the Native Affairs Department to Portuguese officials in respect of money belonging to natives who had died or had disappeared from the Rand. Now, as far as he could find, nothing was given to the Government to show where that money went to. The money was handed over to a Portuguese official in Johannesburg, and a bare receipt obtained from him. He did not want to make any remarks which might be interpreted as being derogatory to the officials of a neighbouring State; but they knew very well that natives were very often hard to trace, and the temptation of large sums of money lying about with no owner claiming them immediately, or no owner likely to claim them, was very great. He did not know to whom this money was to be paid over under the new contract; but it was going to be a very large sum. It was going to be six months wages in every 18 months of every Portuguese native employed on the Rand. And that money was going to be handed over to someone—they did not know who. This Portuguese official was possibly an official of the Native Labour Association, and he was to see that it was handed over to the natives. There was a responsibility resting on the Government in this matter to see that there was going to be no abuse. The Minister had told them the Government had an influence they could bring to bear in this matter, and he did think the Government should do something to satisfy themselves that these vast sums of money did, in the end, reach the proper hands. It was not á matter of sending money to wives and families, but of money reaching the hands of the owner after passing through a great many channels, which might be channels for diverting this money.

said that as far as he could remember the system of deferred pay began in 1903, so that it was not a new thing. And so far as he could remember they had been negotiating for more than a year, and it was practically agreed upon, of arranged, when the hon. member who sat behind him was Secretary for Native Affairs. As regarded the amendment itself, prior to Union, the Cape had an arrangement with the Transvaal which worked satisfactorily. He did not think there would be any difficulty in arranging with the employers, and anything that the Native Affairs Department could do would certainly be done.

said the matter was of the highest interest. As the hon. member for Jeppe had stated, the W.N.L.A. had published no more of the agreement than they thought fit. He understood the main intention of the motion to be that the greater part of the money should be actually spent where it should be. The Government of Mozambique had used as an argument that they wanted part of the wages of the mine Kafirs to be spent in Mozambique. They could never allow a body like the W.N.L.A. to conclude treaties with a foreign power, in which treaty some 60,000 persons were concerned. Mr. Reyersbach, the chairman of the W.N.L.A., had concluded this treaty without consulting the Government—that was what he objected to. The effect of this had naturally been that the power of the W.N.L.A. had increased tremendously. That body had only been created since the war, and had obtained a monopoly to recruit natives. That was afterwards changed, but still they had a monopoly as far as Mozambique was concerned. The Transvaal Government made an agreement with Mozambique, a condition in which was that no contract should be for a longer period than twelve months. That was the treaty of 1909, Apparently that did not now satisfy the W.N.L.A., which now wanted a new arrangement. The Government had no power to do anything in the way of taxing the natives imported by the W.N.L.A. He would like to know, however, whether the contract under which the natives are imported was not in conflict with the Masters and Servants Act. Under that Act an employer was compelled to pay his servants when the work was finished, while the W.N.L.A. now had the right to say to the men, “You can get your money 400 or 1,000 miles from here,” at the end of the contract period. He held that under the treaty of the W.N.L.A. this body obtained undue influence. Last year it had been laid down toy law that the mine boys must be paid direct, and he would toe glad to know whether the Minister had consulted his legal advisers.

answered in the affirmative.

said they ought to know-all the provisions of the agreement. Many Portuguese natives lived just over the Olifants River. 80 or 100 miles from Ressano Garcia, and if the agreement was not annulled, the boys would have to go there to collect the balance of their wages. When a native was accepted he was asked the name of his captain and induna. Then when he went home the reserved wages were sent to his captain. How, the hon. member asked, would the native get the money into his own hands? How would be prove he was the right man? And supposing the native died, how would his relatives get hold of the money or know where to go to receive it? So long as they had no certainty on those points, so long would it be wrong to approve of the agreement. What were the so-called good intentions of the W.N.L.A.? The hon. member for Yeoville had recently stated at a meeting held in connection with the agreement, that it would have as a result that the mine natives would spend more money on the Rand— (laughter)--and that tribal life would be thereby assisted. What were they to think of such expressions? An amount of £7,000 to £8,000 was to be paid annually by the W.N.L.A. to the Portuguese in connection with this agreement, in order that the mines should be able to keep the natives for a longer period. The difficulties against such a contract were threefold. In the first place, it injured the trade of the country, and not only the trade of the Witwatersrand, whilst the native ought to toe left free to do with his money what he wished. The second objection was that the contract was in strife with the fundamentals of civilisation in all parts of the world. The third objection was perhaps the greatest of all— namely, that the contract touched the liberty of the native himself. The hon. member for Queen’s Town especially should consider that point. It, was stated that the provisions of the contract were already being carried into effect, although in the contract itself they only became of force in December, 1914. The chief thing was to protect the native himself, and reference had already been made to what might happen in case of death. The speaker continued that he would also like to refer to cases of sickness. The native was, in point of fact, just as susceptible to miners phthisis as the white man, and it was therefore unfair to keep him in the mines for more than twelve months. All sorts of difficulties might arise when it came to payment of the sums of money that were kept back. The native might lose his pass, and if he lost his identity in that way it would be impossible for the official to pay him. They might also have to do with bad natives who wished to commit a fraud. Another matter was the responsibility of the companies for the payment of the wages, and difficulties might arise there also. He thought the natives’ interests should be protected, and would move an amendment to insert the words, “and in particular of the natives concerned,” after the words “in the interests of South Africa.”

seconded the amendment.

said as one of the people who was more or less responsible for the making of this contract, which had called forth so much discussion, he would like to say a few words on the matter. He certainly did not think that so much interest would be shown in the welfare of the natives. The hon. member who moved the resolution, of course, did not take that point of view at all He would not pretend to say that he did move the resolution in the interests of the natives. He was moving it from another point of view. What he wished to do was to make the importation of labour from Portuguese territory impossible. He (Mr. Chaplin) was sorry that the papers relating to the matter had not been put on the Table before, for there was a great deal of misapprehension. His hon. friend the member for Fordsburg had waxed very eloquent on the subject of the amount of money which rested in the hands of the employers, but it was a pity he had not, before speaking, ascertained the facts of the case. The agreement practically came to this: it would last for another year, and when that period was up in July, 1914, a new system would come into force, and half the contract wages, instead of twelve months’ wages, would be paid in the return of the natives to Portuguese territory.

A good deal had been said about the amount of money the mining companies would keep in their pockets, but month by month the amount of wages accruing to the natives had to be deposited in the bank, and the mining companies had no interest in the money. With regard to the deferred pay which had to be remitted to Portuguese territory, that was placed in a bank selected by the Portuguese Government or established for the purpose in Johannesburg, and the payment was made to the natives on their return by agents in the presence of a local Portuguese authority. There was another point with regard to deferred pay; if after a period of five years the money was still unclaimed by the native concerned, this money would be applied to the benefit of the natives, and especially to hospitals, so that the mining companies would have no benefit from that money either. All pretensions on that score therefore might be dismissed.

The history of the matter was a perfectly straightforward one, of which no one should be ashamed. The Portuguese Government had for years past pressed the mining companies to allow the system to be introduced. The Chamber of Mines had always managed to put the matter off, because they had nothing to gain by the system. They knew perfectly well that if they were forced to agree to the system, there would be an agitation similar to the one that had been aroused. They also knew that it would have the tendency to encourage the natives with money definitely awaiting them to go home all the quicker. The native would not be likely to renew his contract from month to month, as he had been in the habit of doing, and instead of spending his money in the shops of the people on the Witwatersrand, he would be called upon to exercise a sort of compulsory thrift, and possessed of a considerable amount of money which he would receive in his own territory, there would be a tendency for him to remain at home longer, and not to go back to work on the Witwatersrand. It was obvious, therefore, that so far as the mining companies were concerned, they had nothing to gain by this system. The question would be asked why did they go into that arrangement. The reason was that the Portuguese Government had been pressing for it for many years past. It was not by any means a new system. Since the Crown Colony Government it had been continued from time to time and had always been in force in connection with natives from north of latitude 22 in Portuguese territory. The Portuguese Government wished the system to be extended, and it was not surprising that they should take up that attitude. He would not be surprised if they were at the mercy of agitators also, and of storekeepers who wanted the money spent, in their own country. There was no fault to find with the system, which was also encouraged in the case of Cape Colony natives working on the mines, by whom some four or five thousand pounds a month was sent voluntarily to their own homes.

: What guarantee have they that the money reaches its proper destination?

said that we had not annexed Portuguese territory, and could not appoint Portuguese officials. The money was paid by one of the mine’s officials in the presence of an official of the Portuguese Government. He did not see what more the mining people could do than that. They had no locus standi. They had no right to accuse the Government of a friendly nation of dishonest conduct. A representative of the Chamber of Mines went to Lisbon to interview the Portuguese Government and found that the Portuguese Government was determined to have their way in the matter, and it was only then that the Chamber of Mines agreed to it. With regard to the amount of money which would be lost to the Transvaal, that was a matter of opinion. The hon. member for Jeppe had quoted figures to show that the natives took away a large amount of money. The Chamber of Mines made the best bargain they could. They arranged that the money which should be treated as deferred pay should not be actual wages earned, but half of the contract wages. That was nothing like half the total earnings which would be paid in that way. The Chamber of Mines did their best to safeguard the interests of the trading population. So far as they could tell it would make some difference. The difference it would make was the amount by which a sum of money paid annually as deferred pay exceeded the amount which the natives now sent and took home under the present, system. As no one knew what the natives took home under the present system it was impossible to say by what amount the total sum paid as deferred pay would exceed that amount. He did not wish to follow the hon. member for Jeppe further in his argument on the white labour question, but it was the hon. member himself who tried to get the men to work more than one drill each per shift, and the men struck in consequence. He (Mr. Chaplin) did deprecate any attempt to make political capital out of the arrangements which the mines were forced to make. He hoped the House would not accept the motion.

said that if the motion were one objecting to the diversion of part of the money paid to natives who went to the mines from our own territory, he would be inclined to oppose it. The native labour within the Union was depleted because of the natives who went to the mines, whence they returned broken in health, rotten with disease, and with their morals thoroughly corrupted. In fact, certain low class white men touting for labour in Zululand were reported to have held out as inducements to the natives that if they went to the Rand they would have a taste of the white man’s vices. But now the House was dealing with natives coming from a country belonging to a foreign power. The system of deferred pay to the Mozambique natives was undoubtedly detrimental to the people of the Union, and as a member from Natal he would like to see the whole of this wretched Portuguese treaty denounced. (Hear, hear.) Anything which perpetuated that treaty would be opposed by Natal which was almost prevented coming into Union because of that treaty. He could not understand the Government allowing an official representing a private firm to be sent to Lisbon to confer with the Portuguese Government on a matter of this kind. There appeared to be an attempt to hide the liability of the Government in this respect. He hoped the Government would eventually be able to smash the whole of this treaty.

said he agreed with the hon. member for Germiston that it was a great pity that all the papers had not been laid on the Table —(hear, hear)—for it was impossible without the fullest information to give a true verdict on the question. They had been told that the members of the Johannesburg Chamber of Commerce were of opinion that this contract was no different from the one which had been in vogue for some considerable time past, but on the other hand, there were the opinions of merchants who were not members of the Chamber of Commerce, that the contract was detrimental to their interests. Evidence on that point might well be heard by the Select Committee on Native Affairs. Was the object of this motion to stop these men sending money out of the country? No, he thought there was something more in it. He thought the intention was to stop the importation of these natives. (Cries of “No.”) He did not think they could come to a proper decision on the spur of the moment, and he moved that all tire words after “territory” be deleted, and the following words inserted: “And all matters incidental there to be referred to the Select Committee on Native Affairs, with power to take evidence and call for papers, and report to the House.”

pointed out that the committee had power to call for papers and take evidence.

withdrew that portion of his amendment, and made it read: “For consideration and report.”

seconded.

said that he shared the anxiety of the hon. member for Zoutpansberg as to the destination of the money that was kept back—(hear, hear)—but he would not talk so freely about a foreign government as that hon. member had done.

: Why not?

I don’t know why. Continuing, he referred to the arrangements that had been in force between the Transvaal and the Cape, and said there had been a suggestion that the same arrangements should be come be with the Portuguese Government, but, of course, nothing could be done without the assistance of that Government. He would like to point out that this was not an agreement between Governments or between one Government and a private individual or a company; it was a contract between employer and employee—a private matter. If they interfered with this business they might be called upon to interfere with De Beers or any other industrial concern.

What about the Native Labour Regulation Act?

I think I have already told the hon. member that legal opinion is to the effect that that law is not infringed.

That is not my point.

said he would repeat that if they interfered in this private matter, they might be called upon to deal with others, and that would be a very dangerous principle to adopt. He believed that previous Ministers had done their best to see that the rights of the natives were not denied them, and they could only go so far as any other Government was disposed to go. He would be sorry if Parliament asked the Government to do something which they could not do. He agreed with the humane sentiments of the hon. member for Zoutpansberg, who held fair and liberal views with regard to the natives, and he hoped that the hon. member would have moved an amendment before he concluded his speech. When this matter was brought to his notice he had it thoroughly investigated in order to see whether the agreement contained anything that was contrary to the Convention. He found that the agreement differed in respect to the period of service, and he asked the Governor-General to frame a minute to the Portuguese Government.

This matter of deferred payment was hot a new principle. It had been in force ever since—though he was not quite sure of that—they had obtained natives from Portuguese East Africa. The only proposal now was to defer a little more. They began negotiating with reference to the new proposal about 18 months ago, and the previous Minister of Native Affairs saw no objection to the arrangement. He felt as strongly as anybody that if anything could be done to see that these people got what was their due it should be done. The question of spending a little more or little less money in Johannesburg was a secondary question to him. He wished Johannesburg all success, but surely these men should be allowed to spend their money as they pleased. (Cheers.) But sometimes the Government had to protect them, and prevent them from dissipating their earnings. That was a point on which the hon. gentleman spoke with great feeling, which he entirely shared. The question arose as to what would be the effect if they were to adopt a resolution which had the effect of preventing deferred payments. It might have the effect of making the Portuguese hesitate before they would continue to allow the same number of natives to work on the mines. He was not prepared to say to what extent it would have that effect, and he thought the hon. member was more concerned with that aspect than any other. His object was not so much to protect the poor unfortunate natives as to prevent them coming into the Transvaal to be employed on the mines. He thought it would be a good thing if they were gradually to stop natives coming into this country from outside. But it would have to be done gradually and with due reference to all the interests affected. However, he could not accept the amendment. If anything could be done in this matter it was rather a matter for inquiry. As to what could be done, he did not think any information they could get would be of use to them at present from the legal point of view. He would do all he could to see that as far as possible the natives’ interests were safeguarded. He thought the better way of dealing with the matter would be to accept the proposal of the hon. member for Von Brandis. (Cheers.) It was a matter that could be referred to the Department of Native Affairs to be inquired into. Somebody suggested light heartedly that they should at once tear up the Convention. Well, they had too much respect for the Convention, and even if the Convention were found to be bad they had to keep to it. He honed the House would not directly or indirectly denounce a Convention without having the right to do so. They had to do the best they could with the Convention; but when it expired he did not think it was likely to be renewed on its present terms. And while he was ready and anxious to do all he could in the direction mentioned, he did feel that the motion, as it stood now, should not be accepted. In the first place the Government had been advised that it was perfectly legal, and, secondly, he did not think they should talk of renouncing a Convention without reason. For these reasons he would accept the proposal of the hon. member for Von Brandis. (Cheers.)

said he wanted to say that it was very difficult for anybody to vote for this and say it was detrimental to their interests that the natives should have their wages paid to them in the country from which they came. On the contrary, he thought they should be paid there, and not have their wages dissipated in Johannesburg. That was clear, but there was a great deal in the contention of the people who said they wanted to see the natives were paid these wages. (Cheers.) He thought the majority of them agreed that it was highly desirable that the natives should be paid in the country they came from.

He would put it to the Minister, was it not possible to station an officer of the Government in the territory of Mozambique,. where the wages would be paid in the presence of that officer. (A laugh.) They had heard of the loud laugh that proclaimed the vacant mind. (Renewed laughter.)

: Hear, hear.

said he did not see anything ridiculous in the suggestion, It was possible that they could have an officer in the territory of Mozambique who would see that the contract was carried out and that the natives received the money.

said they must consider in the very first place whether it was in the interests of the natives themselves to make these contracts, and when they looked at the matter with an open mind, they found that it was so, for failing some such provision the native ran danger of being robbed in Johannesburg of his money. Therefore, it must be quite clear to them that this provision was in the interests of these people. He doubted whether it would be a wise step to ask the Government to interfere with this contract, and he thought it would be detrimental to the country if the Portuguese Government stepped in now and forbade any further natives to enter the Union. They must also look at the matter from another point of view. What, he asked, would happen to the country districts? All the Kafirs would flock to the mines, and what would become of farming? After all, the mines had to be worked, and although the hon. member for Jeppe (Mr. Creswell) was so strongly in favour of working with white labour, the expense connected with such a scheme might have the effect of causing some of the mines to close up. Other mines, however, would not close up, and would take up all the natives they could possibly get. The country districts could not possibly do without native labour, and neither the mines nor the farmers could employ whites. Johannesburg was an important part of the Union; but, after all, Johannesburg was not everything, and the agricultural population deserved every consideration. Even now the farmers in the Free State had difficulty in getting natives, and what would be their position if the boys all went to the mines? It was in the interests of the country generally that natives should be imported.

the hon. member who preceded the last speaker complained of slight interruptions. He (Mr. Sampson) would not attempt the licence which the hon. member for Victoria West took a few moments previously, probably on account of his age and his long Parliamentary experience, but he would like to explain the reason of the laugh that was complained of The right hon. gentleman put it to the House that it would be a good thing if a central place was fixed, where these deferred wages could be paid to the natives. If the right hon. gentleman would think over that proposition, he would see that it was impossible for the natives to gather together at one point, and then scatter again all over the Province. Their wages were very small, and the expense would be too great. The hon. member for Zoutpansberg had dealt with that point, and had shown what a hardship it would be to the natives if wages were paid in such a manner.

At this stage, the hon. member moved the adjournment of the debate.

It was agreed to adjourn the debate to the 12th March.